# Knowing the Boundary. Where to Draw the Line? [Adult/sexual content]



## Sir-KP (Feb 6, 2019)

Let's face it, when I write something violent and gore materials, most likely nobody would give a stinky stool about it. Like hell probably it will be rated mature/adult at worst, which is nothing to worry about.

Yet let's say if it's (consensual) sex and a rape, everybody would lose their mind. However, we've seen such scenes in motion picture and there are difference in the cinematography between normal movies and blue films. [-X (let's not pretend like you don't know)


Now in written works, where do we draw the line? What is the limit for a intercourse scene to go / how detailed can it be until it is considered as porn? 

Or is literature immune to porn?


** No, I'm not trolling, though. The question is serious. I have to know about this. So any insight would be appreciated. :lol:


----------



## Guard Dog (Feb 6, 2019)

Good question... And one I have no idea how to answer.

When does it stop being a ( necessary ) part of the story, and turn into 'erotica' or 'porn'?

In my WIP, sex is a part of the story... an integral part of the story, since it is the catalyst for certain magic-based events/processes.

And although it's not described in a high degree of detail, for the most part, I have to wonder some times... "Too much?"

I can have characters murder people left and right, have individuals get their heads vaporized, and I'm fairly sure most won't think anything of it.

But let a young Elven priestess that's been asleep for 3000 years and a constructed intelligence with a new biological/synthetic hybrid body she's not adjusted to yet, find themselves in bed with a fellow who triggers sex-based enchantment? 

( Imagine going through puberty at age 25 or so, all at once, and being pumped full of an aphrodisiac at the same time. That's the situation Vhanora and Evie find themselves in. )

Who knows where the line is?

I'm curious to see what the responses are to this one.


G.D.


----------



## moderan (Feb 6, 2019)

The line for me has to do with story. If it's part of the story, a necessary part, then it isn't gratuitous and isn't porn, unless the entire storyline is.
Some of my things are almost unbelievably violent and there are graphic scenes of extremely kinky sexual habits. But they're not there to titillate, they're there to serve the narrative.
So in my mind it's the gratuitousness that is the line. To others, it might be content, period.


----------



## Cephus (Feb 6, 2019)

I tend not to write it at all, not because I can't or won't, but because it rarely even comes up in a story.  It would feel extremely out of place in 99% of what I write.  So I don't.


----------



## SueC (Feb 6, 2019)

I agree with Cephus; my writing typically doesn't have a need for sex scenes. That is not to say, however, that I haven't tried! Just experimenting. I had read an article about how popular romance novels were and good sellers, so thought I would give it a go. I admit that it made me uncomfortable to be too graphic. I kept thinking, in order to write this stuff, I am going to be seen as someone who knows something about it. Well, we all do, don't we? But putting our knowledge down on paper is something else. 

So, to answer the question above, I enjoyed reading the "Outlander" books, which I can honestly say I feel that the author - Diane Gabaldon - is gifted in that regard. The sex scenes were explicit enough to make me feel I was there (well, not quite), but not so much that I was shocked or put off. The series, however, is where the sex scenes became a little boring because I think the level of intimacy that was in the book is really difficult to bring to the screen; unless, of course, it's a porno flick. Watching the series, I was much more interested in the action and when the sex scenes came on, I went for a snack. In the book, the frequency kept me reading.

I think it is a fine line, Sir-KP, and you have to consider your audience I suppose. Bottom line, I think you should go as far as YOU are comfortable with. Does that make sense?


----------



## Guard Dog (Feb 6, 2019)

For me, it definitely comes down to 3 things determining that line, with sex:

The reasons for it. - is there a good reason for it? Does it serve the story, or is it just gratuitous.

The cause(s) of it. - Is there some reason other than "the usual"? Does it demonstrate something about a character or situation?

The results of it. - Is there an actual result that moves the story or changes it is some way, or is it just something that happened that could very well _not have_, and nobody would have missed it?

If it doesn't meet that criteria, then for me, it's on the wrong side of that 'line'.

And then you get into what I mentioned earlier about how much detail to go into.

For the most part, I don't generally go into much. It's usually only enough for the reader to know what's going on, or to show some awkward or uncomfortable aspect of if from a psychological perspective.

...or on occasion something silly or funny about the particular, um... position... the person or persons find themselves in. Sometimes in the figurative sense of the word, sometimes the literal.

( Like a character finding them self in the middle of what amounts to a courtroom, with many thousands of spectators, naked, and having just had sex with someone they only just met, because that particular bit of magic got out of hand. )
( This was one of those instances where the technological folks got introduced to the magic/enchantment-based stuff. )

G.D.


----------



## Tim (Feb 6, 2019)

I've been battling this problem for the last two weeks. The scene I've had to write was making me feel uncomfortable. SueC is correct in saying, we all know about it, but writing it is another matter. How to do it tastefully, using the correct words is the hardest part. In my case the scene is essential, leading on to great stuff to come so I kept at it. Now that I have a draft, it's not so bad. It's the only scene in the novel involving explicit sex so I think it's OK to have it in there. So to answer your question. I draw the line where my comfort level ends and where I think the comfort level of my readers are.


----------



## Sir-KP (Feb 6, 2019)

Tim said:


> I've been battling this problem for the last two weeks. The scene I've had to write was making me feel uncomfortable. SueC is correct in saying, we all know about it, but writing it is another matter. How to do it tastefully, using the correct words is the hardest part. In my case the scene is essential, leading on to great stuff to come so I kept at it. Now that I have a draft, it's not so bad. It's the only scene in the novel involving explicit sex so I think it's OK to have it in there. So to answer your question. I draw the line where my comfort level ends and where I think the comfort level of my readers are.



Yes, I've read everyone's input and there are some good points to take. But I find you said something interesting there for what I'm doing at the moment... 

_*"The scene I've had to write was making me feel uncomfortable."

*_I'm writing a violent stuff. Explicit stuff such as rape is included. Bearing in mind like what Moderan said that the rape scene is not there to titillate/giving readers 'brain candy'. :grin:

In that case, I think it is quite necessary for me to write the scene until it makes even myself feel somewhat uncomfortable, no? It's violence. It's gotta be unpleasing, so the readers instead of feeling like _"oh here we go, X rapes Y"_, they could be more like _"holy effing balls, I hope this/these effing character(s) die!" - w_hich the original question of the thread follows back to it; how far can I go before it turns into a pornographic material?


----------



## luckyscars (Feb 6, 2019)

Sir-KP said:


> Yes, I've read everyone's input and there are some good points to take. But I find you said something interesting there for what I'm doing at the moment...
> 
> _*"The scene I've had to write was making me feel uncomfortable."
> 
> ...



Rape is not an act of sex, it's an act of violence. In every way that is meaningful, rape has as much to do with sex as scalping or hobbling or flaying or pouring molten wax into eyeballs has to do with sex. 

I am sure you know that, but it's frightening how many people seem to think, even on a subconscious level, that writing about rape is similar to writing some kinky sex scene. 

If you are writing a rape scene and it feels like a erotic scene in any meaningful way, you are inadequately characterizing that scene - either because you don't understand what rape really is or are unable to depict it accurately. 

So yeah, analyzing how it makes _you _feel is probably the key. At that point if you still feel unsure, having another person (impartial) read it is probably the next step. Ultimately it's your judgement and your responsibility.

Regarding 'how far can you go', I don't think its really a question of details being off limits but rather about self-awareness - what is the reason you are including X - and how a reader might perceive it. 

I assume you're writing in a genre where the readers are adults and probably fairly accustomed to explicit content? If so, you can write about whatever you want in as much detail as you want. But if you find yourself, I don't know, spending multiple sentences describing body parts in obscene detail or fixating the sexual characteristics of the victim for no clear reason other than 'describing the scene' I think most people are going to think you are a creep.

I'd say just approach it like you would any other unpleasant scene? Most murders aren't written to be funny and most depictions of children's birthday parties aren't written to horrify. Write it according to the emotions you believe are appropriate and don't get too hung up on the sexual aspects.


----------



## CyberWar (Feb 7, 2019)

I suppose "the line" is where sex/violence stops serving a narrative purpose and instead becomes elaborated for its own sake.

Seeing how most of my writings focus on the darker aspects of human existence, I have no problem writing scenes of extreme violence, including sexual violence, but I usually don't make a habit of elaborating them down to every little disgusting detail. A good writer, I think, can tell more with less. Disturbing scenes lose half of their impact if they are elaborated to the point of leaving nothing for imagination.


----------



## velo (Feb 7, 2019)

I would summarise Guard Dog's list into a simple question, what is the level of detail necessary for the story?  

Sex, in all its forms, is still a highly sensitive subject in the post-Victorian world.  Much of the 19th century instilled a great fear of our own bodies into Western culture that is still present.  I find the irony (as stated above) that we allow children to watch extreme violence but won't let them see the body part that fed them in the first few months of life extremely sad and intellectually offensive.  

I rarely write explicit sex.  My rule is that there has to be a very clear need for it in the narrative.  You can allude to the sex or let the reader's imagination do the work for you- "They spent the night exploring each other's bodies, allowing passion to guide them."  (yeah, there's a reason I don't write love stories...)  

Unless there is a very specific reason to describe, for example, penetration or a specific act then I won't do it because it WILL put off some readers.  I tend to roll my eyes at that sort of reaction but the honest truth is that explicit descriptions of sex acts do change the feel of any piece of writing.  Adding unnecessary sexual details can make a piece feel gratuitous or puerile.  

In most of the world sex is done behind closed doors.  It's a private matter...you know most people are having it but they rarely tell you the specifics.  I think good writing follows that format- only tell your mates and others what they absolutely need to know in order to tell your story.  If you're having issues in the bedroom and talking to a therapist you will impart a much greater level of detail than you would to your mother.  

Every story is different, there is no one line, and just like you share different amounts with different people you should share only what is appropriate for each story.


----------



## SueC (Feb 7, 2019)

> Unless there is a very specific reason to describe, for example, penetration or a specific act then I won't do it because it WILL put off some readers. I tend to roll my eyes at that sort of reaction but the honest truth is that explicit descriptions of sex acts do change the feel of any piece of writing. Adding unnecessary sexual details can make a piece feel gratuitous or puerile.



This is very well put. I had written something, and interjected sex because I thought that would make my story more modern, that everyone expected sex. It was not terribly explicit, but there was some detail. Because it was such a small part of the entirety, I asked my adult daughter to read the story, see what she thought. She said when it came to the sex part, she tried to make herself think that someone else had written it. Then, for any subsequent projects that I asked her to read, she always asked, "there's no sex in this one, is there?"

Now I admit that it may have been an error to ask my daughter to read the first one, but it did point out to me that, as Velo said, "sex acts do change the feel of any writing piece." You also have to write so that no one who reads it even thinks its not an integral part of the story.


----------



## velo (Feb 7, 2019)

LOL...yeah, I don't think I would have my kids read anything explicit I wrote.  The reaction is pretty funny.


----------



## Guard Dog (Feb 7, 2019)

Okay, I don't have anything better to do at the moment, so I figure I might as well give an example of how I apply those three rules I mentioned earlier to sex.

Here's an excerpt from my WIP where a character went from being the mind that operates an entire starship to a biological body of her own, and is getting the first hints of just how different life is going to be for her now.
She had been operating a very lifelike android body via a sort of 'telepresence', but now, she's directly 'wired in' to this one, with no filters or buffers for input from her new body.

Oh, and this is a VERY mild scene, with nothing too explicit. It is, however, the lead-in and explanation for the scene that I described in post  #2 of this thread.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

B’Ell pointed Lorn to the machine that would fabricate and fit his armor, gave him the necessary instructions, then hit the button that activated it.

“This may take a little longer than usual, given his size,” Evie said. “And by the way, what do you think? she added, holding her arms out as far as she could in the confined space, and turning around in a full circle.

J.D. looked her over, but was confused as to what he was supposed to be seeing.

“Um, that you look great as always, but then I have no idea what I’m supposed to be looking at or for.” He said, scratching his chin and studying every inch of her that he could see.

Evie just shook her head, apparently in aggravation if not outright disgust, and B’Ell cackled like she was laying an egg, finally saying, “I told you the old one was too good, and that he wouldn’t be able to tell the difference.”

“Yes yes… you’re right of course. That’s what I get for being so good at my job, I suppose,” Evie said, obviously disappointed.

“Hang on a minute, and let me look a little closer,” J.D. said stepping up as close as he could get. He brushed his fingers along her cheek, and then her neck, finally running them through her hair and down along her spine. She seemed to shiver a bit at this last, but just smiled and didn’t otherwise move. Finally, J.D.bent down, and run is nose along a similar path, and through her hair. And when his stood back up, he noticed Evie biting her lip and cutting her eyes at him in an odd sort of way.

“I give up. You look nice, you feel nice, and you even smell nice. I dunno if you taste nice too, but I was afraid to check, since I didn’t wanna get slapped,” He said, holding his hands up and shrugging. “All I know is that if I didn’t know what I do, nobody would ever convince me you’re not a real live woman. So… what am I not seeing?”

“That I’m a real live woman, and that this is my permanent body now.” Evie smiled at him and continued. “And also, from what I hear, that you probably just came very near to setting off another Leveling with that nose of yours.”

“Huh… good thing I didn’t give you the taste test then, I guess…”

“That would have done it, I’m sure,” Evie said, blushing.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, this is pretty timid, but as I said, it's the precursor to a scene later on that isn't.

But it still checks off all the boxes I mentioned earlier.

Yes, there's a good reason for it - It shows a drastic change in  a character and how it effects her.

The cause is anything but 'the usual', as are the reasons behind what happens later on in the story.

And the results of it happening are necessary, and would be noticeable if it hadn't happened, as well as if what happens later were removed.

As for the detail? I figure the reader might like some insight into what Evie is experiencing, how she's interpreting it, and how it's affecting her.

Ah what the hell... here's just a snippet of the scene that follows, to give ya an idea of how this ends up going:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Uh, Vhanora? I don’t know how to say this, and I’m rather embarrassed to even try… but I think we really need to be still and not move around too much,” Evie told her, glad for the low light, so that Vhanora couldn’t see her face and neck flushing. 

Vhanora was instantly curious as to what the problem was, hearing the discomfort in Evie’s voice.

“Why is that? What’s wrong?” she asked. She felt Evie shudder slightly as she spoke.

“Because of what your lips and breath are doing to my ear and neck, and what your knee being pressed against my… well, you know… are doing to this body I haven’t quite gotten used to,” Evie confessed. “I noticed the effect when J.D. was looking me over while Lorn was getting his armor, and I haven’t had a chance to discuss it with him, the doctor, or anyone else since then. In short, too much wiggling around, and you… we… could set off another Leveling I’m afraid,” Evie finished.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And that, folks is how I handle sex in this particular story.




G.D.


----------



## moderan (Feb 7, 2019)

Pretty circumspect. I have a piece that ramps up the kink and the intensity from scene to scene as it works toward a literal climax. Here's a sample:


> The green girl was starting to talk to the plants in the plastic room. Pete knew what this meant and commenced sidling along the back wall, taking care to avoid the prickly-pear cacti that the landscaper had featured.
> The only light back there was ambient. Pete approved.
> He was wearing his overalls, so he was able to get a grip on himself just as the festivities were beginning.
> “Goddess,” the girl said. “I dance for the green.”
> ...


The original version had a rape scene -- however, I find _those_ tiresome and gratuitous, so I switched things around a bit and made the mc more of a perv than a sexual attacker.
This isn't explicit - as you can see. Each succeeding scene gets more so. But it never becomes out-and-out porn like I used to write for Penthouse Forum.
Another recent piece is NC-17, and we won't be posting any of it here. But there's a market for explicit literature. I wrote a series of 'spanking' books for an English publisher back in the day.


----------



## velo (Feb 7, 2019)

*Moderator note: 
I'm adding a disclaimer to the title of the thread for two reasons.  
1- The overall topic may make some uncomfortable and 
2- if someone does choose to use more explicit examples the thread is already called out.  *

*To be clear, no one in this thread has crossed any lines.  Carry on. *


----------



## Guard Dog (Feb 7, 2019)

moderan said:


> Another recent piece is NC-17, and we won't be posting any of it here.



Yeah, I don't think we wanna find out where that line is that gets anybody kicked outta here.:lol:

...and I'm quite sure I've got one or two other bits I could post that would do just that. 

J.D. getting his gate ring, and what he wakes up to after he does, for instance. :shock:

( Fellas, if you ever go to sleep, dream of meeting a deity in some unearthly realm and being given something, then wake up with a naked girl sitting on you chest... Check and see if you don't have the item you were given in the dream. :wink: )


G.D.


----------



## Sir-KP (Feb 7, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> Rape is not an act of sex, it's an act of violence. In every way that is meaningful, rape has as much to do with sex as scalping or hobbling or flaying or pouring molten wax into eyeballs has to do with sex.
> 
> I am sure you know that, but it's frightening how many people seem to think, even on a subconscious level, that writing about rape is similar to writing some kinky sex scene.
> 
> If you are writing a rape scene and it feels like a erotic scene in any meaningful way, you are inadequately characterizing that scene - either because you don't understand what rape really is or are unable to depict it accurately.



Well, I never said it is and obviously, if it wasn't clear enough in my previous post, that's exactly what I am avoiding and instead I want to make it as cruel as possible to the point I'm not even comfortable myself. You basically just re-said what I had said on this part.

And there are porn that use rape scene except doesn't look like rape at all because the purpose is to titillate btw. That, again and obviously, is not what my aim here.



velo said:


> *Moderator note:
> I'm adding a disclaimer to the title of the thread for two reasons.
> 1- The overall topic may make some uncomfortable and
> 2- if someone does choose to use more explicit examples the thread is already called out. *
> ...



Thanks. I knew this thread would be a sensitive one, but I took the shot to start it anyway. 

Do feel free to close it anytime should this gone too far. I think the posts in the first page alone have been insightful for the question.


----------



## Guard Dog (Feb 7, 2019)

Any subject can be handled well, or poorly.

This is a good conversation to help folks see and learn the difference, and find their own way to accomplish their goals, in my opinion.

...and I seriously doubt it'll warrant or need closing, if folks'll just continue to be mindful of what they're posting.

So... No worries, right?


G.D.


----------



## luckyscars (Feb 8, 2019)

Sir-KP said:


> Well, I never said it is and obviously, if it wasn't clear enough in my previous post, that's exactly what I am avoiding and instead I want to make it as cruel as possible to the point I'm not even comfortable myself. You basically just re-said what I had said on this part.
> 
> And there are porn that use rape scene except doesn't look like rape at all because the purpose is to titillate btw. That, again and obviously, is not what my aim here.



My only point with that is we need not to be including rape as being on the spectrum of sex/porn because in writing _authentic_ rapeshould not be recognizably anything like sex/porn. No more than vomiting is like eating: Same organs and basic substances but you would hardly write or talk about them in any way that was similar. I am sure you know that on a moral level of course. I was referring to it in terms of writing, as rape and sex have been mentioned together.

Anyway, to go back to the original question, I think understanding the motive of the author is a big factor. It's not just about whether it makes you uncomfortable (although that's an indicator too) but what the intent is.

If I am writing a sex scene in lurid detail because my _intent _is to capture some deeper aspect of character, or to explore something more than 'sex', then chances are I will write it in such a way that even if it is explicit enough that out of context it might read like erotica in context it will nevertheless be acceptable to most people. 

I mean, look at the stuff in George RR Martin's books. If he wasn't so competent and it wasn't all so relevant to the story and understanding characters, those iterations of 'sexuality' would not be tolerated by so many people. As it is, my 75 year old mother-in-law who won't even use the word 'breasts' sits gripped reading about some graphic sex scene between twins. That's what good, focused, story writing can do.

So yes, make sure your motives are good and sharpen your pencil, avoid the cliches and you should not have a problem.


----------



## Amnesiac (Jul 31, 2019)

I used to be a huge Anne Rice fan. I also read her, "Exit to Eden," and her kinky trilogy/retelling of, "Sleeping Beauty." The problem with her books, is that there was no buildup. There was no deep connection between the characters, so when the "Beauty" books descended into one cheesy S&M episode after another, it wasn't titillating, or even very entertaining. It just became the literary equivalent of Novocaine; just dead dull and no fun at all. I wouldn't recommend either of those books.

It's incredible to believe that this is the same writer who gave us the vampire LeStat, "Cry To Heaven," and the rest of her amazing body of work. So disappointing, and a good example of what NOT to do!


----------



## BornForBurning (Aug 1, 2019)

> Rape is not an act of sex, it's an act of violence. In every way that is meaningful, rape has as much to do with sex as scalping or hobbling or flaying or pouring molten wax into eyeballs has to do with sex.


Everyone says this but I wonder if the point was 'violence' why not just clobber the girl to death? 
I understand that in a moral sense sex is intended as one thing, and rape isn't a part of that. But if rape isn't sex, I think we would still have to agree that it is _sexual_, in the sense that, it is a perversion, a twist of what sex is meant to be. It takes the sexual act and turns it into a bizarre parody of itself, in which the point of sex is no longer mutual self-sacrifice but instead individualistic carnal fulfillment, where the individuals are reduced from a pair of dancers into actor and and acted upon. It is the physical incarnation of a lie, a lie meant to bring self-destruction to the actor and despair to the acted upon. New life is inverted into gnawing death. 
And beyond the spiritual we can observe rape being used as a short-term pragmatic exercise of power, intended to allow an otherwise-rejected male the opportunity to pass on his genes to the next generation, a phenomenon that is _inherently _sexual in the purely biological sense. 
Honestly I think people say this kind of stuff just to shield themselves from how terrible rape actually is. Yeah, violence. Like getting punched in the face, or something. But maybe we have different definitions of violence.


----------



## seigfried007 (Aug 1, 2019)

Sir-KP said:


> Let's face it, when I write something violent and gore materials, most likely nobody would give a stinky stool about it. Like hell probably it will be rated mature/adult at worst, which is nothing to worry about.
> 
> Yet let's say if it's (consensual) sex and a rape, everybody would lose their mind. However, we've seen such scenes in motion picture and there are difference in the cinematography between normal movies and blue films. [-X (let's not pretend like you don't know)
> 
> ...


Boundaries are up to the writer and reader. Readers can't read what a writer doesn't write. No one agrees on the boundary because it's 100% subjective, so the best guess is using a lot of statistical analysis to come up with a good consensus. Gratuitous for one person simply isn't gratuitous for another, and absolutely anything can be gratuitous--not just scenes of sex and violence. 

For instance, if someone wrote 20 pages describing a character drinking coffee at his desk... and nothing much happened... that would be a gratuitous cuppa coffee. 

_Anything_ can be written in excruciating detail, but I think writers are more likely to fall into excessive description with sex and violence because the scene is supposed to have vast emotional impact. Maximum impact requires maximum words and detail, right? Wrong. It's a really easy mistake to fall into, especially for new writers and those new to writing such scenes. Sometimes less is more, but it's always a matter of individual preference and writer skill. 

Literature is not immune to porn because the issue separating them is _intent_. If the writer intends to titillate the reader (especially if that's the sole purpose of the usually short work), then it's porn/erotica. The purpose of these is to excite and sexually arouse the reader. Literature on the whole doesn't have that aim because it's not made for plug-and-play cheap thrills.  Porn is still film, and erotica is still literature (they're just not divinely inspired height-of-culture kinda art).


----------



## seigfried007 (Aug 1, 2019)

BornForBurning said:


> Everyone says this but I wonder if the point was 'violence' why not just clobber the girl to death?
> ...
> Honestly I think people say this kind of stuff just to shield themselves from how terrible rape actually is. Yeah, violence. Like getting punched in the face, or something. But maybe we have different definitions of violence.



Yup. It's easy to forget that rape is a legal term. While some acts are easily defined as rape, many others are not. There are millions of cases where it's contested--not because the rapist excuses their actions behind some pitiful, abusive statement--but because one person thought it was consensual and the other didn't. Rape is about consent first, and that gets lost in the 'violence' and 'power' talk. People can consent to acts of sexual violence and power plays. BDSM is a thing, and it's totally consensual. 

But people can also fail to consent to sexual acts which are not clearly violent or struggles for power. This is part of why rape is a difficult thing to prove in court. If it were always an act of violence, there wouldn't be so much failure in the legal system because there would always be wounds and proof galore. A lack of consent defines rape (or should) but, as consent cannot be proven generally, the legal system has to set some objective "proof" standards. 

There are also thresholds of consent based on age, sex and intellectual capacity which can really blur lines. At what mystical age and IQ is a person able to consent or are said persons doomed to be raped... even if they want the sex? Every country, state and organization sets these "objective" standards for something which is inherently gray and blurry because consent can be difficult to prove, is typically assumed by the outward willingness (not fighting or arguing about it), and can be revoked if some higher authority says so ("No, dear, you're too young/handicapped/insane to possibly ever want sex so I've determined in my immaculate wisdom that this is rape. Because.).  

These blurry areas are far more fascinating as a writer, I feel, because they cause both reader and writer to determine if the act was rape--and potentially disagree. The same scene from a different POV can appear totally consensual or rape because the reader is privy to the intent, the internal motivations and emotions of the characters. Like actual people, however, the characters aren't privy to each other's thoughts, so without these outward signs--the obvious physical turmoil, the loud arguments, a sharp "No."--it can be ambiguous, a so-called "gray rape."

Perhaps the thing I dislike most about rape in fiction is the inherent assumption that acts of physical violence make a rape, and that more violence = more obviously a rape = more damaging to the character = more emotionally engaging for the reader. Yes, making it violent (excessively, gratuitously, irrationally and unbelievably violent even) makes the act "obviously rape", but making it excessive can have unintended effects on a reader and can damage society. 

For instance, if I see rape for titillation or as filler just to make a handy Villain Signifier, I'm going to put the put that book down and never read another one from that author again. It won't make me look at the Bad Guy as "a good villain" because it not only cheapens rape by turning it into some throw-away shiny plastic Badge of Villainy, it cheapens the villain, making said character not a frightening tormentor but a cheap cardboard stock villain. It's a cheap way to get villain cred, and that's so sad. That's not to say villains can't rape people, but that--_like every single thing a writer does_--it has to be deftly handled to get the impact that's desired. 

Gratuitous rape has the effect of often being boring and signifying a noob writer who's heart might be in the right place but execution is horribly botched. This can be fixed with skill and sensitivity. Instead of cheapening the rape, the author is trying to give it the limelight as a powerful engine of character development, which itself is noble in a way because at least the act is being treated seriously. The problem is often one of execution here, but it can also stem from a fault of thinking. An author wants to give a character a reason to feel a certain way, add some drama or horror to a scene, give someone some more motivation or angst... and thus, a rape happens... as though rape is the only event which might be able to satisfy the needs of that story. Like every other act in the story, an author should really examine a rape to determine if it's actually necessary for the plot and characters. It's a big can of worms to open unnecessarily, and improper execution is prone to sending unintended messages.


----------



## Aquilo (Aug 1, 2019)

BornForBurning said:


> Everyone says this but I wonder if the point was 'violence' why not just clobber the girl to death?



Exactly, and it comes back to writing in general: anything can and will be a diverse topic. Perpetrators cause hurt and terror in different ways, you can either pick and choose what you want to cover, or broaden your writing topics.

In all honesty, I'd say try to write in a way that scares you a little and takes you out of your comfort zones, because guarantee that's exactly how your reader is feeling on the topic, and that's something you can work with. Rape will be very uncomfortable for the majority, that doesn't mean you shouldn't portray it: you want to capture how it makes people angry and uncomfortable. And sex...? There's a good percentage who blush or hide their face from it or get angry that's in fiction or... the list is endless, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't write about it: you want to capture why people go prude on writing about it but who still get naked about it away from writing. But on the whole, content warnings and tags are there to keep away the ones who like their _no sex in fiction please_ comfort zones.

On where to draw the line? Some new and seasoned authors who don't write sex think it's all about explicit content: butts, nuts, and touching those coconuts. At the end of the day, it's not. It's knowing when it's needed, what's needed, but most importantly -- when it's not needed. Some won't learn to judge that because they live behind a blindfolded shout of _No_ -- _no sex_. At the end of the day, it's _writing_ about sex, how that fits into life. And again, you can either choose to show how life is portrayed in all its diversity, or you can pick and choose. Unfortunately, some who pick and choose will go bible on you and suddenly turn into the most virtuous people on the planet and tell you shouldn't be doing it. And when it comes to _don't _extremists, I'm kind of with Hauser: _That's a __fine looking__ high horse. What __you got__ in the stables_, boy_? _


----------



## Amnesiac (Aug 1, 2019)

Rape is about power. Power takes. Love gives. It's that simple. Rape has nothing at all to do with anything but power. This is why rape is also a weapon that has been employed down through history, as a tool of warfare; of subjugating the populace. Look at the Ottoman Empire's invasion of Sicily. They changed the freakin' gene pool!


----------



## seigfried007 (Aug 1, 2019)

Amnesiac said:


> Rape is about power. Power takes. Love gives. It's that simple. Rape has nothing at all to do with anything but power.



It's about a lack of consent. A lack of consent is the only thing that separates that mutually pleasurable BDSM beatdown from a rape. 

Here's some finer tuned examples. I'm going to list some scenarios, and you get to ponder if they're rape, or sex or something else, perhaps. No need to argue about it, because I'm just putting these out there as food for thought. Feel free to be inspired and write any or all of them. 

1. A 14-year-old girl gets a fake ID, lies about her age, seduces a 19-year-old man. Man is prosecuted because a 14-year-old cannot consent. 

2. At a frat party, two coeds get wildly drunk and have sex. Man is prosecuted for rape because a drunk woman cannot consent. 

3. A man breaks into a woman's house, binds her, gags her, beats her and forcibly inserts household implements into her cavities but never inserts his penis. He is prosecuted for assault, which has a maximum sentence substantially under that of a rape of equal brutality in said jurisdiction.

4. A man with the intellectual capacity of a minor wants to have sex with a longtime friend. She consents, possibly due to pity but probably because she loves him enough to not discriminate based on his handicap. She is prosecuted for rape because he is deemed unable to consent due to his intellectual handicap.

5. A man lives  where the age of consent is lower (16) and seeks out sex there with barely legals. He travels to a foreign country and does the same thing, but the age of consent is higher (18 ) and is prosecuted for rape. 

6. A man has sex with a 14-year-old girl and is not prosecuted. He has sex with a 14-year-old boy and is prosecuted because the age of consent is different in this country depending on the sex of the partner. 

7. A man and woman are dating. Man wants and requests sex, but the woman is exhausted and doesn't want to. Eventually, she begrudgingly obliges because she doesn't want to fight about it anymore. So she rolls over and takes it like champ. 

8. Man comes home, rolls his wife over and gets his business done. She doesn't fight him. 

9. Man convinces woman to carpool with him to some function. Drives around all over town, gets her totally disoriented, takes her to his apartment instead because there's been a change of plans and the function's now going to be held there. She's aware that he has a gun and powerful connections and feels threatened even though he has not actually threatened her. No other people show up to this function. Feeling threatened, she obliges to sex after meek expressions that she actually doesn't want to. She is eventually allowed to leave the apartment.

10. Man catches a woman alone in a deserted location, threatens her with physical violence, and has his way with her. He is not prosecuted because she didn't scream or fight back enough, and the jury of his peers finds him not guilty because she obviously wanted it or she would have fought back harder.  

11. Female supervisor coerces another female underling into sex by threatening her job security. Not prosecuted as a rape because women don't have a penis and the law in said jurisdiction specifies a penis must penetrate some orifice

12. Via whatever means necessary, a woman physically forces a man to have sex with her. Cannot be prosecuted because women can't rape anyone under the law.

13. Man and woman have sex. Woman regrets the sex the next morning and because "regret is rape" presses charges.


----------



## Amnesiac (Aug 1, 2019)

Hrmmm... 

Two things: In this day and age, I'm glad I'm married. If I weren't married, I'd probably just stick with masturbation. Jeez...


----------



## BornForBurning (Aug 1, 2019)

> Rape is about power. Power takes. Love gives.


Love isn't powerful? :wink:
Sorry this is the last time I'll play the semantics game.


----------



## Amnesiac (Aug 1, 2019)

Love is the single most powerful force in the universe, superseding even death, however, I was speaking of the dynamic of power vs. love and the difference between the two, particularly as concerns rape and all the other subcategories thereof.


----------



## Ma'am (Aug 1, 2019)

Last night, I read most of a NYT bestseller, _All The Ugly and Wonderful Things_. 

The blurb on the back goes along with the way the content was presented, "A beautiful and provocative love story between two unlikely people..." 

A man grooms a little girl for sex and buys her an engagement ring when she is thirteen and he is in his mid-twenties, after acting like a father figure to her since she was about eight years old. After he gets out of prison for it, they get married. 

Beautiful? I don't think so. I skipped the late-middle part and went to the end after it got too sickening to continue reading. And I only did that because I expected it to end with one or both of them realizing it had actually been sick but, nope.


----------



## Amnesiac (Aug 1, 2019)

Ma'am said:


> Last night, I read most of a NYT bestseller, _All The Ugly and Wonderful Things_.
> 
> The blurb on the back goes along with the way the content was presented, "A beautiful and provocative love story between two unlikely people..."
> 
> ...



Nabokovian, but even darker, if that's possible.


----------



## seigfried007 (Aug 1, 2019)

Ma'am said:


> Last night, I read most of a NYT bestseller, _All The Ugly and Wonderful Things_.
> 
> The blurb on the back goes along with the way the content was presented, "A beautiful and provocative love story between two unlikely people..."
> 
> ...



I hate when it's written like that. It's not a beautiful story--no matter how beautifully it's written. Call it the horror it is. That's what I'm doing with Pinocchio. I can write it in sexy, glowing terms, but I want the reader to think about what's going on, really examine the topic of consent preferably. Get kinda heavy handed even with it, I think, because I want to show it as abusive--even if it's abuse that gets everyone off. The victim can look back and wonder why it happened, what they could have done differently, whether or not they wanted it even. Being confused about what's happened is par for the course with abusive relationships. While there are notes of romance in the story, I'm not going to label it a romance, and much of the romances are tainted with doubts about motivation, depending on how deeply one examines the relationship.  

There are so many more forms of abuse and rape and sex than what most writers dare to think about or put to prose. And the consequences can be so far reaching. There are certainly popular ways to show these things in fiction--the drawn out, violent rape; the abuse-as-love 50 Shades & Twilight stuff--and there are deeply unpopular, not even considered aspect, too. 

For instance, if All the Ugly and Wonderful Things story had the cajones to show a victim who set out to receive more abuse or seek it out from other men after her abuser went to prison. This situation happens all the time, and most people cannot understand why the victim seeks out abuse--especially if it's physically painful or demeaning. Generally, it's because the victim needs to feel important, meaningful, needed, loved--and the abuse lets her feel those things in the only way she knows how to feel them. 

The other really unpopular one I can think of is when the child victim becomes the abuser, actively seeking out and manipulating people to abuse or to be abused by. The victims sometimes lash out in this power struggle. They're aware in this case that they've been used (generally with some kind of force) and now they either think this is normal and happens to everyone (so there's no reason to avoid doing this to other children) or they know it's abnormal but feel the need to exert control over something else because they can't stand being powerless. Either case generally lead to a rapist, serial molester, monster manipulator or some other variety of pathologically unpleasant person later in life. To me, this is that much more tragic than the passive victim with the chronic learned helplessness because this person at one time had all the hope of being a great leader, a wonderful human being but eventually becomes the thing they hate and fear the most anyway... and can't break that cycle.


----------



## Annoying kid (Aug 4, 2019)

The difference between porn and storytelling is nudity and erotica is a means to an end not an end unto itself. As such, such things are used alot more sparingly, as the writer knows that to overuse it is to diminish it's storytelling impact.


----------



## seigfried007 (Aug 25, 2019)

Forget porn vs literature, I wrote a scene last night that strains the boundaries of what a sex scene might even be. Been struggling for two days now even trying to figure out of it's sex, rape or neither. Most of the time, the distinctions are pretty obvious--but this isn't one of those times at all. 

Not sure if I can post it here. There's some coarse language but I can asterisk the bejeezus out of it, if need be. 

It pertains to a man giving another man an abdominal ultrasound. There's not much, if any, nudity and no articles of clothing are entirely removed. Genitalia make no appearances. 

But it reads like a sex scene (of one sort or another, consensual or otherwise).


----------



## seigfried007 (Aug 26, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> Forget porn vs literature, I wrote a scene last night that strains the boundaries of what a sex scene might even be. Been struggling for two days now even trying to figure out of it's sex, rape or neither. Most of the time, the distinctions are pretty obvious--but this isn't one of those times at all.
> 
> Not sure if I can post it here. There's some coarse language but I can asterisk the bejeezus out of it, if need be.
> 
> ...




Posted a 3.6K excerpt which includes said scene. I'm not entirely sure why this scene bothers me so much, but I welcome a discussion on the issue. Said scene appears in the middle "Playing Doctor" segment.


----------



## Trollheart (Aug 27, 2019)

Something luckyscars posted there kind of nails it on the head really - if (and this is obviously only concerning rape) the scene comes across as erotic, then it's inappropriate. I believe that if you have to write a rape scene (and sometimes it happens in literature, let's face it) then it's very important to show that it is abhorrent to you, either through the effect it has on the character being raped via the narrative (I don't mean the narrative rapes her, you know what I mean) or through the almost inhuman brutality of the person perpetrating the rape. It needs to be made clear that this is wrong - not for the story: it must be necessary for that, perhaps to establish a revenge motive or create an unwanted child etc, or even to allow the rapist a shot at redemption through remorse later on. But just wrong as in the pure and simple fact that rape is always wrong, no exceptions. None. If you "side" with your character who's doing the rape, then it's almost like you're doing it yourself, is how I feel. You have to always see it through the eyes of the oppressed, not the oppressor, in this case anyway.

As for actual sex, it's (was going to say hard but heard the groans already) tough: for me, I don't want to be seen as a prude who's afraid to mention the "s" word or use a dot-dot-dot-the next morning sort of thing to avoid it, but I also don't want to be accused of writing soft (or even hard)-core porn. Apart from anything else, the sex should not distract the reader, I believe, from the main point of the story. If it does, why would you want it to do that? 

We live in the real world (so I'm told) but fiction is fiction, and while we often want to make it as realistic and true to life as we can, we don't always have to. Characters don't, for instance, necessarily have to be shown using the toilet, or picking their nose, or waiting for a bus, or all the other little mundane things we know happen, but may not be needed in the story. As the general consensus seems to agree, use/describe/include sex only if it's an integral and important part of the story, either to highlight character traits or flaws, or to hammer home how promiscuous or otherwise the world the story is set in is. Or if it's a part of the plot. Otherwise, I'd say keep it in their pants. Nobody wants to see that thing.


----------



## seigfried007 (Aug 27, 2019)

Trollheart said:


> Something luckyscars posted there kind of nails it on the head really - if (and this is obviously only concerning rape) the scene comes across as erotic, then it's inappropriate. I believe that if you have to write a rape scene (and sometimes it happens in literature, let's face it) then it's very important to show that it is abhorrent to you, either through the effect it has on the character being raped via the narrative (I don't mean the narrative rapes her, you know what I mean) or through the almost inhuman brutality of the person perpetrating the rape. It needs to be made clear that this is wrong - not for the story: it must be necessary for that, perhaps to establish a revenge motive or create an unwanted child etc, or even to allow the rapist a shot at redemption through remorse later on. But just wrong as in the pure and simple fact that rape is always wrong, no exceptions. None. If you "side" with your character who's doing the rape, then it's almost like you're doing it yourself, is how I feel. You have to always see it through the eyes of the oppressed, not the oppressor, in this case anyway.
> 
> As for actual sex, it's (was going to say hard but heard the groans already) tough: for me, I don't want to be seen as a prude who's afraid to mention the "s" word or use a dot-dot-dot-the next morning sort of thing to avoid it, but I also don't want to be accused of writing soft (or even hard)-core porn. Apart from anything else, the sex should not distract the reader, I believe, from the main point of the story. If it does, why would you want it to do that?
> 
> We live in the real world (so I'm told) but fiction is fiction, and while we often want to make it as realistic and true to life as we can, we don't always have to. Characters don't, for instance, necessarily have to be shown using the toilet, or picking their nose, or waiting for a bus, or all the other little mundane things we know happen, but may not be needed in the story. As the general consensus seems to agree, use/describe/include sex only if it's an integral and important part of the story, either to highlight character traits or flaws, or to hammer home how promiscuous or otherwise the world the story is set in is. Or if it's a part of the plot. Otherwise, I'd say keep it in their pants. Nobody wants to see that thing.



Here's a post I wrote earlier in this thread since, apparently, _all _rape must be _inhumanly brutal_... or it doesn't count as rape. 


See, I'm into blurring the lines on purpose because I actually want readers to evaluate how blurry the lines are. I want people to think (and feel) and maybe even change their minds on what constitutes rape or sex or abuse. The line between abused and abuser can be pretty blurry, too, but very few writers are brave enough to take stuff like this on. 

Not thinking about this stuff yields a society which is fundamentally illiterate to what constitutes 'rape.' Writing narratives on social issues has historically proven to be a valid vehicle of societal change, so yeah, I'm writing it. Doesn't make me a rapist, doesn't mean I'm "siding" with the abuser either. I'll write it, and it's up to the reader to figure out for themselves if something's rape or not. Because they're adults, and I'm out to make them think--but not tell them what to think because that insults their intelligence and breeds up a society of stupid people who don't know how to think for themselves.


----------

