# I will never critize bad writing ever again.



## Stephanie J. (Oct 7, 2010)

Why? Let me just put it this way. If not for page after page of non-stop dialogue, for glaring plot holes, for shallow descriptions and a host of other cringe-inducing problems, I would not even have the measly twelve pages of my first novel that I have in front of me now. 

Guys, this is awful! I'm a life long reader, I know good writing...so why is my own so bad?? Granted, this is my first crack at fiction writing. I'm actually a professional copywriter by day. But...I just didn't expect fiction to be this hard. For what I'm churning out here to be this amateurish! 

Does fiction writing _really_ improve with practice? I could definitely benefit from hearing some success stories right now...like a turning point for the better some of you reached. Because I'm seriously second guessing myself right now. 

- Steph


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## Sam (Oct 7, 2010)

Does it improve with practice? Of course it does. There are a multitude of professional authors out there whose first novel stank like a dead skunk. Not their first _published_ novel, but their first actual attempt at putting together a story. I still have the very first novel I ever wrote and, compared to my writing now, it's a pile of c**p. Of course, I didn't think it was that bad when I wrote it, so you already have that advantage. 

1,000,000. That's the magic number, apparently. They say (don't know who "they" are; the Illuminati, Friends of the Earth, Knights Templar -- who knows?) you need to write a million words of c**p before you get to the good stuff. Don't be disheartened though. Just consider your first novel a learning process. An initiation, if you will. Have fun with it. Just let the writing flow, and don't worry about creating a masterpiece. If that's going to happen, it will take time, and it certainly won't be with _numero uno. _

Success stories? Well, I'm not a success by any means, but I have had a number of good reviews on my latest novel. Which, when I think about what #1 read like, could be construed as a success, I suppose.


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## Stephanie J. (Oct 7, 2010)

Sam W said:


> I still have the very first novel I ever wrote and, compared to my writing now, it's a pile of c**p. Of course, I didn't think it was that bad when I wrote it, so you already have that advantage.



Thanks, it's good to know I'm further along than I thought.  

And I'm glad to hear that practice really does help. It's just perplexing to me that what I'm writing at the moment is so bad *considering* that I really am a lifelong reader, largely of very good writing. You would think some of it had rubbed off.


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## Sam (Oct 7, 2010)

It could be bad in _your _eyes, but it's always worth a second opinion. If you feel up to it, post it in the Writers' Workshop and see what other people think.


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## Stephanie J. (Oct 7, 2010)

Trust me, I know it's bad. I don't want to subject anyone else to it! But, maybe down the road if it seems to be shaping up into something actually readable...


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## ArcThomas (Oct 7, 2010)

I haven't read your work, so this may be missleading.

But to be a good writer takes more then practice. It takes a good foundation of understanding and,
You need to prepare.

Without Preparation you will find yourself rushed, or lost.
What you tell us will be demeaning, and you will mislead us with your message by not fulfilling the image in your head: like me.

let me at it and I'll give you my best feedback ever.
a few report overview.


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## WolfieReveles (Oct 7, 2010)

I wouldn't worry so much, as previously mentioned you get better with practice.

Exactly what is it you find so horrible about your work? Identifying what is wrong is the most important part of improvement. Is it about the plot? The language? Figure out what you need to focus on, find a specific problem, and then see what others do differently that you found to be so much better. Ultimately you will have to solve it in your own way, but seeing what Byron and Shelly would have done in your situation, and comparing it to what Gaiman or Kafka would have done, you may come up with ideas for what will become "The way Stephanie J. would do it."

As a novelist I wouldn't say I'm at the level of a pro yet myself, but I'm not going to beat myself up over it. The less discouraged you get the easier it'll be to keep going and make those improvements you need.


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## Stephanie J. (Oct 7, 2010)

WolfieReveles said:


> Exactly what is it you find so horrible about your work? Identifying what is wrong is the most important part of improvement. Is it about the plot? The language? Figure out what you need to focus on, find a specific problem, and then see what others do differently that you found to be so much better.



Thanks for asking; I was just outside considering your question, in fact. And it helped me zero in on what's bothering me the most:

1) Too much dialogue. I didn't have this problem at the beginning, until my main character met another main character in the book. Actually, there is little spoken between them at first, but now I can't seem to stop this endless conversation they are having. Perhaps I need to change the scene to get out of this dilemma. 

2) Showing how a character is feeling without spelling it out so drily. For example, "He was peacefully thumbing through his book." I would like to convey the character's calmness and sense of peace a little more skillfully than that. Does this make sense? What I mean, is to create a scene in a few deft strokes that helps the reader actually visualize the character is momentarily at peace without me having to say exactly that. 

3) Giving more insight into my character's strengths, flaws, etc. An example: My main character is supposed to become involved in an extraordinary set of circumstances, ...and it's just not believable at this point that the character has the kind of traits, is deserving, etc. for this set of circumstances to happen to her. 

Thanks again for asking a question that got me to focus on what exactly is troubling me.


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## Stephanie J. (Oct 7, 2010)

ArcThomas said:


> But to be a good writer takes more then practice. It takes a good foundation of understanding and,
> You need to prepare. Without Preparation you will find yourself rushed, or lost.
> What you tell us will be demeaning, and you will mislead us with your message by not fulfilling the image in your head: like me.



I actually did attempt some outlining and character development exercises. But then I got concerned that I was doing this to postpone some actual writing. I agree with you about preparedness, though.


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## PageOfCups (Oct 7, 2010)

Just make sure that you write something every day. If you do that then after a few months you'll be amazed at how far along you've come. If I showed you something I wrote a couple of years ago and then something I wrote last week you wouldn't know it was by the same person. Reading helps, it leads by example, but you need to practise to improve at anything. No body ever became an amazing musciacian by just listening to music and writing is the same.

Editing helps as well. If you know what it's meant to be like then coming back to it and trying to change it to that will be a good learning experience for you. By the time you've written and edited 100,000 words (about 300 pages in standard manuscript format) you'll really be able to see how far along you've come.


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## Stephanie J. (Oct 7, 2010)

PageOfCups said:


> JReading helps, it leads by example, but you need to practise to improve at anything. No body ever became an amazing musciacian by just listening to music and writing is the same.



That is a REALLY apt analogy. Thanks, all of you, you're helping to talk me off the ledge, trust me.  Patience is something I struggle with, and just seeing what I've written so far...I was really tempted to think it's hopeless.


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## Auskar (Oct 7, 2010)

I used to think I really liked dialogue.  I mean, I went through a period when I read a lot of Robert B. Parker's stuff and he writes dialogue with short sentences and I got used to it.  Now when I see it in my own work, I don't like it too much.  Every once in a while, there has to be a gesture or something.

Also...

I think you get better over time.  My first stories, even though I edit them, seem amateurish.  My last story?  It's the longest one I ever wrote (7300 words) and reading it was as enjoyable as reading an established author's story.  There were typo's (and I fixed them) but not anything that changed page numbers or anything.  It took me a long time to write, but that is mostly because I knew how it would end, I think, and I was bored with writing it.  I had already outlined the entire story before I started writing.  I had thought it all out.

I think you get better over time.

I'll let you know, though.  I an still not published in a professional market.  Maybe this one...


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## ArcThomas (Oct 7, 2010)

*Steph*
I would say that if your having problems with endless dialog. Which I understand as A flaw and have never encountered:
I would say make sure that you don't instruct a full conversation. _ei_ so and so went on about such-thus-such and befoe I knew it I had to interupt..
bad example but you hopefully catch my drift.

What I meant by preparation is this.
Authors are commonly known for their style.
When creating a style you like (_an order of introducing matters, or facts_), so that you paint the image as we should see it. 
Not just details. 
But force us to understand what is important over what is happening, while considering what is necessary for us to catch the mood.
EI. If you want us to learn more about the character tell us how they interact with their surrounding by pressing that these are their impressions via repetitive insinuations. [first person]
get it?

ahaha, postponing. I do that.
Though I was looking for a co-author...


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## ppsage (Oct 7, 2010)

> 2) Showing how a character is feeling without spelling it out so drily. For example, "He was peacefully thumbing through his book." I would like to convey the character's calmness and sense of peace a little more skillfully than that. Does this make sense? What I mean, is to create a scene in a few deft strokes that helps the reader actually visualize the character is momentarily at peace without me having to say exactly that.


 
The pages turned in his hands like ripe figs slipping from the branch. Make the object of a state-of-being verb subject for trope. Use sparingly.


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## WolfieReveles (Oct 7, 2010)

for #1 there is something you mustn't forget: They can talk for five hours, but you only need to write the most important parts. Are they talking because it only makes sense that they would be talking, or are they takling because everything needs to be said? If you feel there's too much dialogue perhaps you can narrate the contents without writing every dialogue. Write a few dialogues that you need. If the characters want to keep talking you can work around it. They often have a will and a life of their own if they're well developed, but you decide what to display:

"We regretfully inform you..." read Sammy from the letter.
"Go f**ck yourself" John responded, looking at Sammy as if he was to blame.
Sammy didn't quite know what to respond to this so he simply continued reading Johns letter to him. It was a rejection from Oxford. It was no wonder they had spawned so many writers, dictionaries and thesauruses, seeing as they could rephrase the word "no" over two pages. As Sammy voiced the printed words, John continued to hurl insults at him, even at his mother. Sammy had wondered if it was really necessary, but this was no time to ask John for reasonable behavior, and gradually it just stopped bothering him. After all he had seen John hurl the same insults at his goldfish, it was just a way of venting.
"Well... that sucked" John finally declared as Sammy folded the letter and put it back in the envelope. Sammy nodded in return and offered John the last slice of the Pizza.

That saved me about three pages of dialogue and bickering.
Now go to Blockbuster and get the movie "the son" and see how much can be said with expressions and actions, and then put those into your own words.


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## caelum (Oct 7, 2010)

It's all practice from what I've been able to see.  There may be a bit of natural ability that can help the process along—an affinity for words, a sense of good drama, imagination—but spending lots of time writing seems to be more important than any of those.


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## Sam (Oct 8, 2010)

Not necessarily true, Caelum. Yes, you can improve your writing with practice, but that will only make a mediocre writer average, or an average writer good. The rest is innate talent. Creativity, for instance, can't be taught, or practised, or learned. Having a good imagination can't be learned either. Nor can being a good storyteller. Practice will get you so far. Then, what separates the greats from the rest of the pack is talent.


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## Stephanie J. (Oct 8, 2010)

Thanks, everyone...really good advice here, from practical tips on different "devices" I can use, to some very welcome encouragement. 

Sam, I agree that something "innate" has to be there...I'm just not sure to what extent. There are certainly people who probably from the moment they began writing did so instinctively and with fluidity. But I do believe that practice and studying the craft - including many of the resources on this website - can make a real difference over time. Just last night after reading some of the responses on this thread, I went back to my own book and reworded a page or two. I could see a difference, although I still have a long way to go. 

Something I've already learned from just talking out some of my main problems on this thread is...I can't get too attached to a scene. I may like what's happening in it, but if it's hampering the pace of the story, I just have to chuck it.

I also like one of the poster's suggestions about making an object reflect a character's mood from time to time, not just relying on describing how the character is doing. There were lots of good suggestions, actually, I'm just mentioning a couple of them at the moment.


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## ArcThomas (Oct 8, 2010)

Well i wouldn't say that.
is this a novel, a novelette, or a short story _Stephanie_?
There si no need to chunk a scene if your attached. Just make a chapter of it,
and make it more significant!
Don't forget the significants of foreshadowing either, that includes fulfilling foreshadowing.


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## caelum (Oct 8, 2010)

Sam W said:


> Not necessarily true, Caelum. Yes, you can improve your writing with practice, but that will only make a mediocre writer average, or an average writer good. The rest is innate talent. Creativity, for instance, can't be taught, or practised, or learned. Having a good imagination can't be learned either. Nor can being a good storyteller. Practice will get you so far. Then, what separates the greats from the rest of the pack is talent.


 
That's all well and philosophical, but hardly a practical standpoint to base one's training on.  Even if there are natural abilities that come into play, it's no sense talking about them when giving advice because they're outside people's control.  I sadly agree on many levels, there are people who train as they might will never be great, a midget ain't gonna win the highjump, but that kind of talk doesn't encourage people.


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## Sam (Oct 8, 2010)

Well, you have to look at it from this standpoint: Is there any point in flogging a dead horse? That may sound cruel, and I'm not saying for a second that anyone should quit writing because of fear of never making it. I write for me first, the audience second. If the day ever comes where I write for a living, it'll be the other way around. Having said that, sometimes people need to be told the truth, harsh though it may be. You see it on talent shows everywhere -- parents who delude their children into believing they can sing or dance because they haven't the heart to tell them the truth. 

We can sugar-coat it if we want, and say that everyone will become a great writer if they practice. It's just not true. Some people can read from the telephone book and make it sound funny. Others could read the funniest joke in the world and it would hardly create a snigger. There are people who are born to be certain things. I can practice from now until I'm old and wretched, but I'll never be a professional footballer. I can have all the singing lessons in the world, but I'll never sell-out an arena. I can train for years, but I'll never run the 100m in under ten seconds. I can have dozens of elocution lessons, but I'll never make my speech as interesting as someone who has the gift of the silver tongue. 

Practice gets you so far; talent allows you to cross the line.


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## Stephanie J. (Oct 8, 2010)

Arc, it's a novel. I love foreshadowing in books, and I think that's something my own needs more of. Thanks for the reminder!


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## caelum (Oct 8, 2010)

Sam W said:


> You see it on talent shows everywhere -- parents who delude their children into believing they can sing or dance because they haven't the heart to tell them the truth.


I agree with this, I think it's a disservice to mislead people about how good they are.  But that goes to say nothing about practice.  Indeed, if those people had been less mislead about their skill and had consequently practiced more, they may have fared better.  I've read the early stuff of some of my idols such as Stephen King, and it was crap.  The kind of stuff we see here every day (not to say all stories here are crap, but there's lots of beginning writers.  I've seen brilliant stuff here on WF).  There's no denying that practice will improve one's craft enormously, whether there's a solid foundation of natural ability or not.


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## Auskar (Oct 8, 2010)

I was  in the army, sitting in the back seat of a car.  Doug Elrich was in the passenger's seat.  He was a really smart guy - way beyond most I've met.  I don't remember who was driving.  

I must have said something because Doug turned around in his seat and said, "Stupid people don't know they're stupid." 

I worried about that for days.  Was he talking about me?  Was he talking about someone else?

I still remember it, though sometimes I forget his name.

No one knows if they can write or not.  Some of the worst tripe comes from people that are really proud of what they do.  Some of the best comes from people unsure about what they accomplish.  I guess the hard part is to read what you write without your brain filling in all the blanks.  I don't know if that is possible.


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## Eluixa (Oct 8, 2010)

Just because you are not Michaelangelo does not mean you have'nt got something worthy to contribute. Taking away/discouraging someone's art, just because they may not be the next genius is wrong, imo. Why does it matter to anyone if someone putters along, gaining in proficiency, learning something new, happy with their new puzzle/novel? Is someone else's take on the truth about your talents worth giving up your joy? What if Stephen King had not kept trying? Or any of my favorite writers before they'd been published? As is being said, maybe you have to write a couple craptastic novels before you get it, and it flows. I think it is obvious that persistence not only pays off, but is critical to the writer in fact.
I have problems being a perfectionist, and I doubt myself all the time, whether I am good enough to take time away from my famly to write, essentially to play, not knowing if it will ever truly be a contribution to our welfare. And then the stubborn part of me sets in and insists that if mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. My learning curve is pretty steep, and I slip regularly as I have a crappy memory and have to keep learning and remembering what I was doing over and over again, but I persist because writing and rearranging words seems to make me happy. 
That and everyone likes different stories. There are writers I enjoy and those I have no interest in, but I'd not tell them to stop writing. Same with any art. I'm not sure what I am meant to do. I do know what I like to do. And the journey is important, is it not? Maybe writing is not 'it', but whose to say it won't eventually take me to what is 'it'?


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## Eluixa (Oct 8, 2010)

And Stephanie, sometimes when I am reading, a passage that is just so perfect takes my breath away, and I wonder if they just know how, or if they grew into it. In either case, I study it while I read. 
Maybe take a look down at the Literary Maneouvers. Trying to pack everything you want to say in a tiny story is a helpful in deciding what you really to be saying, which I think is what I find so beautiful in some passages, just the perfect concise thoughts, expressing what is most needed.


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## Auskar (Oct 8, 2010)

I don't think it takes a great writer to be a great author.  In mysteries, for example - you have James Lee Burke, Robert Crais and Robert B. Parker.  All have different styles.  All are good.  Some can make words flow.  Some can make you see beyond the words.  They are different kinds of authors.


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## Foxee (Oct 8, 2010)

It's about practice but it's also about being honest about your efforts. Being willing to learn. Learning how to sift the good advice from the bad. Studying storycraft.

I have a long way to go in my own opinion. I've had people read my writing and tell me it's marvelous but when I hold it up to some of my favorite authors I don't think it's quite there yet.

Still, when I started writing I got a lot of things wrong. It wasn't because I would never be any good at a writer any more than someone who sits down at a piano at the beginning will never be a good pianist because they're just starting.

Information, willingness to learn, a dash of discernment, and practice, practice, practice.


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## funnygirl (Oct 8, 2010)

Sometimes, when reading over my work, I’m quite sure I’m a freaking genius and am possibly the greatest writer in the world. Often, while reading the same work, (I don’t multi-task) I start to panic that there has never been a writer worse than me, that I’m kidding myself, wasting time, and producing a pile of rubbish only worthy for the bin, shredded naturally lest someone read it, resulting in permanent eye-damage. Can anyone say, mood-swing central? The former actually worries me more, I start thinking ‘Am I that rubbish that I’ve sunk into the land of self-delusion?’
But still I plug plug plug along. Just keep writing darl. It may be good, it may be bad, at least you can say you’ve done it. And maybe in the future, once you know a bit more, you can edit and polish that sucker to a high sheen or at the very worse have a little giggle at your own expense. Lots of luck!


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## gagoots (Oct 8, 2010)

Something i've kind of learned along the way: Not everything that you know about a character needs to ever be written in the story. Your pages and pages of dialog are probably important, but maybe a lot of it is information for *you* and needs to be kept off the page, as character notes. Does that make any sense? Readers (good readers, anyway) don't like to be given everything. Television does that. What you hold back in a story is just as important as what you give. The rest can be eluded to, and then the reader will feel involved in the story when they "discover" those things which you have been able to hint at because you know the character so well.


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## philistine (Jun 29, 2012)

Getting 'better' was never really easy to define for me. Like you, I've read thousand of books, from all ages, and all difficulties. I know writing. Yet when I started writing fiction, it was, without a doubt, quite rubbish. It was absolutely full of errors, both grammatical and formatting, though that was just the icing on top of the cake. 

I've improved greatly since then, though I can't attribute it to just one thing. It seems by collection all these little rules, guidelines, tips and tricks over time, I've gradually moulding my work into something much better than the average writer. I suppose being published is testament to that. 

Many writers, both new and experienced, seem to have trouble proofing their own work. If they outsource the proofreading to a friend (fellow writer), or even hire an editor, they might not deal so well with all the red marks and suggestions it might come back with. Over time, I gradually learned how to go through my own work with a fine-tooth comb; asking a thousand questions in return upon reading each paragraph: does it make sense, does this flow logically, have I paced this correctly, am I showing enough, as opposed to telling? and so forth. Rookie errors exist, at least in my opinion, due to not asking enough questions. Correct the errors, and you'll find that your writing flows like the Seine on a summer's day.

I realise this is a massive bump, though I get a kick out of necromancing threads.


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## HooktonFonnix (Jun 29, 2012)

It's embarrassing for me to go over older parts of my WIP, because I've improved dramatically over the course of this one novel. Seriously, keep writing. It's amazing how much you can improve by just doing it. You'll catch all of those irritating typos and awkward phrases more and more as you go, and eventually you'll pretty much stop doing them altogether.


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## SR Steed (Jun 29, 2012)

As others have said, practice is important, and I think the more you write, the better (from a writing perspective) you read. When you see specific deficiencies in your own work, you might be able to see more precisely how other writers dealt with it in their work. Writing is a craft as much as it is art.


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## Kyle R (Jun 29, 2012)

Recognizing the weaknesses in your writing is a necessary and important step on the road to writing excellence.

It means you're on the right path. :encouragement:


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## wehttam (Jun 29, 2012)

I've gone through about fifteen re-imaginings of just about the same story in the past couple of years. Some of them were bad, others were terrible, a few were actually pretty good. But I'm still working on it, and I probably always will be working on it. I think if you put enough time into it, eventually every novel can be finished and finished well.


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