# Why I have Opted-Out of Writing Critiques



## Odd Greg (Aug 18, 2013)

That title is too short. Let me fix it:

*Why I have Opted-Out of Writing Critiques and Opted-In to Writing Reviews*

Some people simply cannot write a good critique, or feel anxiety when they do. I am one, the other or both. Some people are very good at writing Critiques. I won’t mention any of you because I have seen quite a few good critics on this site, and you seem to enjoy doing it.

What concerns me about my decision is that some people may feel slighted by this, or feel that I’m not a team player. I’m sorry if you believe either or both of those notions. In reality, I rather want to be a team player, but I know my weaknesses. So, I will focus on reviewing the work of other writers, and try to be as honest and dispassionate as possible. The latter can be a bit difficult if the story is either particularly good, or particularly bad in my view.

While I do *not* think that anyone on this site is playing a popularity contest, I *do* believe that popularity can have a quite positive effect on how a critique is received. I don’t see that as a bad thing at all. Because I can’t fathom the idea of ever being popular, I feel that I should leave that up to others. Naturally, the most important aspect of being a critic is competence. I’m not currently competent to properly critique, I don’t think.

So, it’s off to the possibly less appreciated realm of pure opinion that I go. Time will tell if this angers and disappoints, but I hope not.


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## Orchidia (Aug 18, 2013)

Probably a stupid question, but what's the difference between a critique and a review? Or a better question might be: how would you define the difference?


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## Kuro (Aug 18, 2013)

Pure opinion is basically what I'm doing for now as well. I'm not a veteran to writing nor am I well known around this site, so I feel critiquing just isn't for me.

I see nothing wrong with giving your opinion, though. Any feedback is better than no feedback and I'm sure a lot of people actually want a personal opinion. I certainly know I enjoy receiving others opinions, at least.


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## Kehawin (Aug 18, 2013)

I understand your feeling that way, but I honestly joined this site to improve my writing skills.  If no one, or only a few, critique my work, I have joined this site in vain.  While I don't think that each and every submission should have pages and pages of critiques (and trust me, there are sites out there that this happens), only one or two really doesn't give the submitter a feel for how the work as written is being received.  I am tremendously thankful for those who _have_ critiqued what I have submitted, "popular" or not (and trust me, few did), and it would be a shame if only those who are most vocal on this site were the only ones giving feedback.  I have done my best to give a "critique" though I am no where near an expert - in fact, Literature was always one of my least favorite subjects for that very reason - but I know that every little bit helps and if I have something to say I have said it...  I think that _not_ giving a critique to anyone on the site based on whether you feel popular or not defeats the purpose of submitting work.


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## Jon M (Aug 18, 2013)

... I guess.

Seems a bit silly to quit for those reasons. Critiquing another's work is a skill just like storytelling is. And it is extremely helpful when it comes to identifying errors in your own work.


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## Odd Greg (Aug 18, 2013)

*Orchidia*

Not really a stupid question. I believe a critique includes pointing out errors in sentence structure, grammar mistakes, word definitions and use, and etc. It also includes a review component, quite often. I am opting out of the teaching and suggesting changes role, and opting in to the 'here's what I thought of the story, and why I felt it worked/didn't work' role. In this way I can leave the mechanics of writing to others, and stick to giving my opinion of the story.

*Kehawin*

Oh, I wouldn't worry about there being any scarcity of good  critics. This isn't an all-or-nothing situation. My opting out of doing  critiques is for your own good. I'm not good at it. I don't have the patience or the disposition to do it without a bottle of Tums nearby. Trust in those who  can.
All is not lost.


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## Odd Greg (Aug 18, 2013)

Jon M said:


> ... I guess.
> 
> Seems a bit silly to quit for those reasons. Critiquing another's work is a skill just like storytelling is. And it is extremely helpful when it comes to identifying errors in your own work.



Let me say this as diplomatically as possible, and without intent to be patronizing. It is not silly to follow my own path, nor am I so ignorant as to not understand the instructive value of writing a critique. I choose not to do so publicly, and I choose to do what I feel both comfortable doing, and is useful to the site.

So I wonder, Jon - how is this knowledge of myself silly?


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## Orchidia (Aug 18, 2013)

Well I think I like your "reviewing" better than critiquing. =] In some ways, grammar stuff is a much easier fix than whether or not the story/characters work. Personally, I put more value on the latter, although both are always appreciated of course.


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## Jon M (Aug 18, 2013)

Odd Greg said:


> Let me say this as diplomatically as possible, and without intent to be patronizing. It is not silly to follow my own path, nor am I so ignorant as to not understand the instructive value of writing a critique. I choose not to do so publicly, and I choose to do what I feel both comfortable doing, and is useful to the site.
> 
> So I wonder, Jon - how is this knowledge of myself silly?


Well, honestly, I find this whole announcement-thingy to be silly. You've been a member for like eight days. Maybe become an established part of the community before you do anything drastic? And quitting because of some perceived incompetence _is_ a poor excuse, especially when Google and an entire wealth of information is literally a click and ten keystrokes away. 

Everybody here is a work in progress. Nobody expects otherwise.


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## Odd Greg (Aug 18, 2013)

Jon M said:


> Well, honestly, I find this whole announcement-thingy to be silly. You've been a member for like eight days. Maybe become an established part of the community before you do anything drastic? And quitting because of some perceived incompetence _is_ a poor excuse, especially when Google and an entire wealth of information is literally a click and ten keystrokes away.
> 
> Everybody here is a work in progress. Nobody expects otherwise.



Well, you are entitled to your opinion in respect to how you perceive the 'announcement', and that the length of my time on this site somehow equates to invalidating my desire to do so. Also, you are entitled to _thinking_ that my incompetence is falsely perceived. And since, as you suggest, you believe that Google having a wealth of information a few clicks away is a substitution for anything personal, I will have to assume that you are not able to comprehend my motives. I have faith that you truly believe in what you are saying. I ask for the same privilege. 

As for choosing reviewing over critique, it has been something I have preferred for a very long time, but I do try to fit in to a given site's culture. But, sometimes reading for comprehension, and then reporting on what has been comprehended, is a valuable tool in writing. Possibly as valuable as writing a critique.

I'm rather old and having been writing in one capacity or another for three decades. I'm entitled to know my limitations, and to share that knowledge with others who may also share in my point of view. It's as simple as that.


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## Bloggsworth (Aug 18, 2013)

Orchidia said:


> Probably a stupid question, but what's the difference between a critique and a review? Or a better question might be: how would you define the difference?



A critique tells the reader how it should have been done, a review reports on how it was done...


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## Orchidia (Aug 18, 2013)

Bloggsworth said:


> A critique tells the reader how it should have been done, a review reports on how it was done...



Thank you! I suppose I should have known that, but when thinking about it, I discovered that I couldn't clearly define the difference.


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## Sam (Aug 18, 2013)

'Critique' comes from two Greek words 'kritke' and 'tekhne', which translate as 'critical art'. A review may tell you what's wrong with a piece, but a critique goes in-depth to show you how to fix it (or, rather, how the author of the critique believes it should be fixed). Having another set of eyes to look over something is invaluable, so critiquers are basically beta readers for the initial stages of ideas or written works. They identify plot holes, inconsistencies, grammatical errors, etcetera. This rarely happens in a review, a medium through which a person relays whether or not they liked a story.


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## Orchidia (Aug 18, 2013)

Sam said:


> 'Critique' comes from two Greek words 'kritke' and 'tekhne', which translate as 'critical art'. A review may tell you what's wrong with a piece, but a critique goes in-depth to show you how to fix it (or, rather, how the author of the critique believes it should be fixed). Having another set of eyes to look over something is invaluable, so critiquers are basically beta readers for the initial stages of ideas or written works. They identify plot holes, inconsistencies, grammatical errors, etcetera. This rarely happens in a review, a medium through which a person relays whether or not they liked a story.



Well, this definition makes me dislike the idea of a review because it doesn't sound like it could offer much in the way of constructive criticism. But this:



> I am opting out of the teaching and suggesting changes role, and opting in to the 'here's what I thought of the story, and why I felt it worked/didn't work' role. In this way I can leave the mechanics of writing to others, and stick to giving my opinion of the story.



pretty much makes me okay with Odd Greg's proposition. Pretty much just sounds like he wants to do critiques minus the grammar stuff, or that's my interpretation anyway.


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## Odd Greg (Aug 18, 2013)

Sam said:


> [...] a medium through which a person relays whether or not they liked a story.



Excellent post, *Sam*, but the last bit I have quoted here is an inaccurate summation. Reviews can, as you mentioned earlier in your post, point out problems that include plot holes, poor characterization, and awkward phrasing, but without delving into how to fix it. It includes, without question, the same elements of opinion that critiques often include, minus the instruction element.


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## Charlaux (Aug 18, 2013)

I’m not sure how anyone can think that critiquing isn’t for them; everyone has an opinion. From what I understood of your post, you’re diluting your opinion because you feel like it isn’t received as gratefully as opinions from members who have been here for a while?

I remember noticing that someone thought the words ‘I think’ devalued a critique, and I was going to reply then but had to go out, but I think – there we go again - those are the two most important words of any critique. I usually put them in when replying because I don’t want people to mistake my comments for anything but well-intentioned advice, and just one way of doing things. Some critiquers don’t drop them in, but I doubt because it’s because they think they’re prescribing the only right way of doing things. I drop smiley faces into my responses to keep the tone informal. 

I think a review and a critique are just two levels of the same valuable response, but a review is a general reaction more useful in the early stages of development, and a critique takes more time and is for polishing more confident writing. It's personal choice which you think would help a fellow writer most, each case differs, but both always help. A critique by its very nature has more potential to make someone defensive, whether you have been on this site a day or a year, and whatever writers say about not taking it personally there’s always that potential to be defensive about your project.


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## Odd Greg (Aug 18, 2013)

> [...]  everyone has an opinion. From what I understood of your post, you’re  diluting your opinion because you feel like it isn’t received as  gratefully as opinions from members who have been here for a while?



Naw, that would not be my reasoning at all. I didn't say that, and I don't think I implied it. I do agree that everyone has an opinion, though. Reviews and critiques both contain opinion.



> I think a review and a critique are just two levels of the same valuable response,[...]



I couldn't agree more, so it should not matter to anyone that I chose one form over the other. I choose to review.

All-in-all, I don't have much problem with what you have said - except that no one has said anything about my critiques, as far as I am aware. I respect all of them and have no quarrel with anyone in respect to critiques. I just choose to not do them in lieu of writing reviews, instead. You agree that both are of value. 



> A critique by its very nature has more potential to make someone  defensive, whether you have been on this site a day or a year, and  whatever writers say about not taking it personally there’s always that  potential to be defensive about your project.



Sure. No doubt about it. Reviews, by their nature, can have the same effect. If that was my major issue, then I would do neither. I feel uncomfortable _instructing_ someone in the art, however. I am unqualified. (An example of a qualified person, in my view, would be *lasm*, who teaches grammar. There are also many other qualified critics.) I know that a lot of people think that's a cop out, that critiques are just fine when written by unqualified people, but I don't. I am self-taught and need to refer to the 'little book' myself. If one day I decide that I can easily toss together a competent critique, then I will do so. Until then, I feel comfortable reviewing, instead.

Thank you for your response, Charlaux.


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## Trilby (Aug 18, 2013)

Although it may be advisable for a WFs member's own growth as a writer to give critiques, it is by no means compulsory. Being that there is no need to opt in and critique in the first place an announcement of opting out is not necessary.

The pieces put up for critique by members are works in progress and are there for advice on how to improve their SPaG/story/plot etc. - they are unfinished works and therefore a review at the this stage imo would be unfair, and an unfavourable review could possibly do a lot of harm to the writer's self-esteem and future progress as a  writer.

SPaG aside - a critique is someone else's opinion - and that is all it is, an opinion. It is neither right nor wrong - it is an opinion. It is up to the original author to look at the critiques/suggestions and pick out what they find useful as to improving their story and disregard any advice they don't find helpful.

Edit - #Odd Greg, where are you giving your reviews?


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## qwertyman (Aug 18, 2013)

Qwerty wishes to announce he will, from this day forth, no longer be stirring his tea anti-clockwise.


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## Odd Greg (Aug 18, 2013)

Trilby said:


> Although it may be advisable for a WFs member's own growth as a writer to give critiques, it is by no means compulsory. Being that there is no need to opt in and critique in the first place an announcement of opting out is not necessary.
> 
> The pieces put up for critique by members are works in progress and are there for advice on how to improve their SPaG/story/plot etc. - they are unfinished works and therefore a review at the this stage imo would be unfair, and an unfavourable review could possibly do a lot of harm to the writer's self-esteem and future progress as a  writer.
> 
> SPaG aside - a critique is someone else's opinion - and that is all it is, an opinion. It is neither right nor wrong - it is an opinion. It is up to the original author to look at the critiques/suggestions and pick out what they find useful as to improving their story and disregard any advice they don't find helpful.



Firstly, the Opt-Out/Opt-In jazz is just a device. Obviously, there is not such requirement. As for the remainder (but for one thing) of what you have said, I'm surprised that anyone at this point, having read my posts, who assume that I was not aware of what and how valuable critiques are in this venue. You may be stating these things for the record, so no harm.

The one thing I find interesting is your assertion that:

 "_therefore a review at the this stage imo would be unfair, and an  unfavourable review could possibly do a lot of harm to the writer's  self-esteem and future progress as a  writer."_ 

Some part of that would apply to some forms of critique on some gentle members. So the effect could be the same in both cases. Perhaps you are saying that I should abandon this 'foolish' idea of mine and swing on back to the correct path - or just not do anything at all - although that may well be just an misreading on my part. I think what you may be forgetting is that I may, in fact, be able to recognize a case where a review is either unnecessary, or harmful. That's a false assumption, Trilby. Do you have reason to believe that I may be a destructive influence greater than already exists?

I truly appreciate your adding to the discussion. I mean no one ill will by stating my intentions. I suppose it is fair to say that I expected some dissent and counterpoint, but I hoped for no destructive controversy.


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## Odd Greg (Aug 18, 2013)

Trilby: #Odd Greg, where are you giving your reviews?

Here and there.

Example: Although I refered to this as a critique, it is probably a review. -> http://www.writingforums.com/fantas...prologue-revision-s-langauge.html#post1658710

You may critique that review if you like.


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## Bloggsworth (Aug 18, 2013)

Orchidia said:


> Thank you! I suppose I should have known that, but when thinking about it, I discovered that I couldn't clearly define the difference.



It is a movable line like left-wing and right-wing politics; it rather depends on where you are standing...


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## Myers (Aug 18, 2013)

Outside that I would appreciate either a critique or a review or whatever you want to call it as long as some thought goes into it; why exactly are we supposed to care what you do?


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## Odd Greg (Aug 18, 2013)

Myers said:


> Outside that I would appreciate either a critique or a review or whatever you want to call it as long as some thought goes into it; why exactly are we supposed to care what you do?



I honestly have no idea why anyone would care what I do. That is, unless someone thinks I am dangerous or disrespectful. As far as I can tell, I have been neither. Why do you ask?


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## Kevin (Aug 18, 2013)

It's a discussion and here are his thoughts. Why not? He hasn't said "I won't participate", he merely attempts to define his participation and explain his reasoning. Odd Greg, carry on...next subject...


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## Odd Greg (Aug 18, 2013)

Kevin said:


> It's a discussion and here are his thoughts. Why not? He hasn't said "I won't participate", he merely attempts to define his participation and explain his reasoning. Odd Greg, carry on...next subject...



Thank you, Kevin. I'm quite happy, even thrilled, to carry on.


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## Myers (Aug 18, 2013)

Odd Greg said:


> I honestly have no idea why anyone would care what I do. That is, unless someone thinks I am dangerous or disrespectful. As far as I can tell, I have been neither. Why do you ask?



I ask purely out of curiosity. It would never occur to me to make an announcement like this or presume that it would matter to anyone. To me it’s simply about offering whatever I can to the author in the hopes that it might be useful in some way.  And I am grateful for whatever feedback that I get, regardless of format.

With that, I’ll go back to what I came here to do. All this seems like a big waste of time. See you in the Workshop.


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## Odd Greg (Aug 18, 2013)

Myers said:


> I ask purely out of curiosity. It would never occur to me to make an announcement like this or presume that it would matter to anyone. To me it’s simply about offering whatever I can to the author in the hopes that it might be useful in some way.  And I am grateful for whatever feedback that I get, regardless of format.
> 
> With that, I’ll go back to what I came here to do. All this seems like a big waste of time. See you in the Workshop.



Well, this is the Writing Discussion forum, so why not - but I didn't expect the heavy winds.

See you in the Workshop!


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## OurJud (Aug 18, 2013)

Bloggsworth said:


> A critique tells the reader how it should have been done, a review reports on how it was done...



Personally I'm still not clear on this and still stand by Orchidia's original question. Surely the writer of the piece already _knows_ 'how it was done', as he/she wrote the thing?

And aren't reviews for the benefit of a person who is considering buying a product of some sort. And how can you 'review' a WiP anyway?


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## Deleted member 49710 (Aug 18, 2013)

Qualifications aside, most of the time I'm not terribly interested in correcting grammar. Something can be grammatically fine and still bad, or grammatically incorrect but still great. What I think is interesting in critique is more about voice (word choice, sentence construction, narrative distance, etc.), structure (sentence, paragraph, scene, story as a unit or not), presentation of ideas and characters (image, metaphor, simile, exposition, etc.), things like that. 

The thing is, you learn a lot about these things by doing critiques. So Odd Gregg, while you are certainly free to respond to others' work in whichever way you prefer, I'd suggest that, for your own sake, it might be good to attempt some detailed critique whether you feel qualified or not. Maybe just find a sentence or two that stands out to you as especially good or bad and try to figure out why. That's all critique really is, with varying levels of attention. There's nothing wrong with a more general reading; that can be valuable,  too, and I think most good critiques give both some overall impressions  as well as detailed suggestions.


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## J Anfinson (Aug 18, 2013)

Jon M said:


> ... I guess.
> 
> Seems a bit silly to quit for those reasons. Critiquing another's work is a skill just like storytelling is. And it is extremely helpful when it comes to identifying errors in your own work.



Which is exactly why I like to judge the LM. It forces me to read and critique things that I might not otherwise. It's been a great learning experience for me, just as writing itself has.


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## WechtleinUns (Aug 18, 2013)

Wait, what?


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## shadowwalker (Aug 18, 2013)

re: difference between a critique and a review - from the author's POV, the only thing of value is the critique. That's what points out questions/problems/errors and _may _offer suggestions to resolve those things. The important thing is that it points them out to the author, who may still be too close to the story to see them otherwise. A review is for readers - it tells "only" what that person's opinion of the story is, and may not go into any details at all. Most (not all) reviewers don't even want to hear from the author, and if an author is smart, they'll accept that and move on.

As to the announcement, there's no rule that one should critique anyone. I've been burned out on critiques for a while, but I did enjoy it very much, and hope to move that up on my priority list - but there are only 24 hours in a day, unfortunately.


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## philistine (Aug 18, 2013)

I haven't written a single critique on this website, and I've been here for almost two years. When I write, I'm going to work on my own writing, not that of others.

However, I sometimes look at pieces on here and make mental corrections, but don't bother to write them down.


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## bazz cargo (Aug 18, 2013)

My 2c.

 I think it depends on the context. Some writer's and their work would benefit from either, or possibly both. And there is nothing from stopping the reader from blending a critique with a spot of reviewing. It is still an equal opportunities Forum.


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## Odd Greg (Aug 18, 2013)

In the very least, this topic has brought a number of people out to say something and to express their opinions. Lot's of agreement and likes all around for dissent and bafflement. Maybe it was worth it. Maybe it wasn't. But, I said something I thought worth saying and I have no regrets.

Off to cause trouble somewhere else. Ta-ta for now! *poof*


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## ppsage (Aug 18, 2013)

Seems I've been wasting a heck of a lot of my time.


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## Odd Greg (Aug 18, 2013)

ppsage said:


> Seems I've been wasting a heck of a lot of my time.



Oh, I dunno. Maybe it was time worth wasting. I suppose it depends on whether you think important things are a better use of your time than cruisin' through the day for the love of it. Not that I have the foggiest notion of what you are talking about.

PS: Don't misconstrue my use of the comment "Off to cause trouble somewhere else" as meaning I'm disappearing from the site. I'll just cause trouble in some other section of it. I'm not easily scared away.


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## ppsage (Aug 18, 2013)

> Not that I have the foggiest notion of what you are talking about.


Doing critiques.


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## Odd Greg (Aug 18, 2013)

ppsage said:


> Doing critiques.



Whatever in the world, in this discussion, would leave you with the impression that critiques are a waste of time?


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## Skodt (Aug 18, 2013)

Let's us keep this on the context. 

Why Crit, or why Review. Do not make this anything more guys. :semi-twins:


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## Tiamat (Aug 19, 2013)

Maybe it's just that I view this place as a sort of give-and-take thing.  I mean, sure, the writing discussion section is a nice place to argue about plot and POV and whatnot, and the lounge is just great for talking about movies or sharing music that nobody else really cares about.  And yeah, the how was your week area is a nice way to commiserate or whine, but is that really why we're all here?

I can't speak for anyone else, but when I registered it was because I knew I wasn't likely to get much better at writing without some help.  So I joined this place, found my way into the workshop, and started sharing my work.  That's the "take" and I appreciate every critique I've ever gotten--even the stupid ones that just said, "Hey, this is cool!" or "This was about as refreshing as a cow's backside."  Not exactly helpful, but at least it meant that someone read my work, right?  Now for the "give."  If all these people were taking time out of their day to read some of the really awful crap that I've posted over the years, it seemed only fair for me to return the favor.

Now, I'm not saying you _have_ to critique.  Heck, I'm not even saying that you should.  But I will say this:  If, like me, you joined to develop your craft and become a better writer, then you, sir, should learn the art of critique.  If you're not here to become a better writer, then feel free to review or simply read till your heart's content.  At the end of the day, what you choose to get out of this forum isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference to anyone but yourself.


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## Odd Greg (Aug 19, 2013)

Tiamat said:


> If, like me, you joined to develop your craft and become a better  writer, then you, sir, should learn the art of critique.  If you're not  here to become a better writer, then feel free to review or simply read  till your heart's content.  At the end of the day, what you choose to  get out of this forum isn't going to make the slightest bit of  difference to anyone but yourself.



While I don't agree with the either-or implication in your comments (I can wish to become a better writer and not write critiques, for example. They aren't mutually exclusive,) I do agree that this place is give and take. Hence, my wish to review (but not in the professional sense) rather than critique. My form of giving. I've written quite a few critiques in my day, and the process hasn't help me as much as others seem to believe it has helped them. Call it a personal fault of mine. Reading them, however, has done me a lot of good.

I'll try to avoid "_This was about as refreshing as a cow's backside_" sorts of comments, and do whatever I can. If the consensus is that I should just forgo the entire affair, then I'll consider that, too. It's not my intent to step on anyone's sensibilities. I'm sure no one actually cares one way or another what I do.

You make good points, Tiamat. Strangely, you may think, I'm actually not at odds with them.


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## Dictarium (Aug 19, 2013)

I don't get it. If you see someone use the wrong tense somewhere or something why would you NOT point it out? I mean, you don't have to comb a piece and point out every grammatical error to "critique" it. If you see a thing just say it and then include the "review" part. I don't see why this has to be some over-the-top, "I'm quitting" thing. Like you could've just stopped combing people's pieces for grammatical errors and instead pointing out things that were very obvious that you don't need to search for and everything would've gone on normally.


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## Dictarium (Aug 19, 2013)

philistine said:


> I haven't written a single critique on this website, and I've been here for almost two years. When I write, I'm going to work on my own writing, not that of others.
> 
> However, I sometimes look at pieces on here and make mental corrections, but don't bother to write them down.


And yet your title is... what now? "Mentor"? Quite ironical en' it?
e:For the record, that was like a jokey, sarcastic thing. I wasn't being serious.


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## Odd Greg (Aug 19, 2013)

One final statement, and I will leave the floor open to anyone who wishes to comment without rebuttal.

I made this ‘announcement’ largely because I had stated in my introduction post that I wanted to engage in giving and receiving critiques. The purpose of this thread was to recant that statement and to give my reasons and alternative.

I am getting on in age, and my health is failing. Not that it makes any difference to this discussion, or anyone. But I figure I have a few years left, and I am disturbed by the thought of letting my brain atrophy into a grey blob sending drooling signals. I came to the site because I want to improve my writing. It’s one of the things I love to do, and I have a few stories I’d like to finish before the curtain call.

I’ll happily bow out if the site feels that my lack of reciprocity is unhealthy, or that my stand on this matter will lead to people not wishing to critique any of my work. What would be the point of it all, then? No drama, no trauma. I’m not looking for sympathy, but I am looking for help in getting better at telling my stories.

That is all. Over to you.


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## Jon M (Aug 19, 2013)

Tiamat said:


> [...] and the lounge is just great for [...] sharing music that nobody else really cares about.


Blasphemy!


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## Kyle R (Aug 19, 2013)

Critique, review, it all falls under the realm of "feedback", which I consider, as a writer, always valuable. Give feedback in any manner you wish, I say. Leave it up to the writer to decide the value of it. :encouragement:


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## Odd Greg (Aug 19, 2013)

I see a portion of critiques as like taking a microscope to a ballgame, and pointing out that the weave of AstroTurf is confusing or inappropriate for a game. One can only read so many of such details in a series of critiques. But, of course, that's not entirely fair, because some are like taking a telescope to a ball game, and some are like sitting in the press box, calling the plays. A good critique, in my view, may contain elements of all three. I think I prefer calling the game from the press box.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Aug 19, 2013)

Odd Greg said:


> I see a portion of critiques as like taking a microscope to a ballgame, and pointing out that the weave of AstroTurf is confusing or inappropriate for a game. One can only read so many of such details in a series of critiques. But, of course, that's not entirely fair, because some are like taking a telescope to a ball game, and some are like sitting in the press box, calling the plays. A good critique, in my view, may contain elements of all three. I think I prefer calling the game from the press box.


Not sure it makes a ton of sense to declare yourself incompetent to critique and then tell the rest of us how you think it should be done. You want to stick to the big picture, that's your choice and it's fine. But for some people, all those details add up to the difference between good writing and bad writing, and they matter.


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## Kevin (Aug 19, 2013)

There are patterns that some of us can't see in our own work, things that don't read well but that might be overcome when others point it out to us.


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## Odd Greg (Aug 19, 2013)

lasm said:


> Not sure it makes a ton of sense to declare yourself incompetent to critique and then tell the rest of us how you think it should be done. You want to stick to the big picture, that's your choice and it's fine. But for some people, all those details add up to the difference between good writing and bad writing, and they matter.



Okie dokie.


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## Odd Greg (Aug 19, 2013)

After much soul-searching and consideration of some of the comments made, I now modify my use of the word 'review' to 'limited critique'. So can we all just get along, now?


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## Bilston Blue (Aug 20, 2013)

> But for some people, all those details add up to the difference between good writing and bad writing, and they matter.



I concur in the strongest sense. Hell, I misplace my comma and don't see it, I ​need to know.


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## Dictarium (Aug 20, 2013)

I'm still not entirely sure what the difference between the two is. In a literal sense, the two words both mean the same thing, do they not? I mean I could write a post on someone's thread in "Fiction" entirely about how ineffective that person's Point of View was and that's me critiquing them. Wouldn't that be a critique? Likewise, I could make another post in another thread in "Fiction" entirely about all of the verb tenses that they messed up because of the complicated way in which he/she is telling the story or whatever. That would be a review of all the incorrect verb tenses. I'm reviewing.

When did these two synonyms arbitrarily begin to mean different things? I think this point is moot. -)


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## Odd Greg (Aug 20, 2013)

And yet, by some miracle, my jimmies remain unrustled.

Edit: Oh! And by some ironic twist of wonderment, I received email from CritiqueCircle. Apparently I have unused credits. I wonder what I should do...


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## Terry D (Aug 20, 2013)

Dictarium said:


> I'm still not entirely sure what the difference between the two is. In a literal sense, the two words both mean the same thing, do they not? I mean I could write a post on someone's thread in "Fiction" entirely about how ineffective that person's Point of View was and that's me critiquing them. Wouldn't that be a critique? Likewise, I could make another post in another thread in "Fiction" entirely about all of the verb tenses that they messed up because of the complicated way in which he/she is telling the story or whatever. That would be a review of all the incorrect verb tenses. I'm reviewing.
> 
> When did these two synonyms arbitrarily begin to mean different things? I think this point is moot. -)



They are only synonyms if you use them to mean the same thing.  I see a critique as detailed analysis of style and technique, and a review as to the effect of that style and technique. I critique the writing; I review the story.


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## Myers (Aug 20, 2013)

And most people seem to instinctively do both in varying amounts without making a big deal out of it.


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## shadowwalker (Aug 20, 2013)

I think the difference is within the writers' "community"; on almost every writer's forum I'm on, and in almost every conversation I've had with experienced writers, "critiques" have been used for the writers' benefit and "reviews" have been used for the readers' benefit. Which is why writers look for critique partners instead of review partners, I assume.


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## Myers (Aug 20, 2013)

Not that it matters, since the horse is already at the glue factory, but you could say review-like; feedback that is more about overall impressions, preferences or how a story makes you feel. Things that are pertinent to readers, but writers want to hear about them too. All of it can come under the header of critique, if you're not splitting hairs.


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## qwertyman (Aug 20, 2013)

Report from the trenches
(sound of gunfire).

Qwerty (MC and Bar) calling from the front lines, I can confirm that after three days of exclusive anti-clockwise tea stirring, there is definitely no difference to the taste of the tea, (bullet ricochets of church tower).

Recommend instant return to multiple stirring (snigger).

Can I go home now?


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## Odd Greg (Aug 20, 2013)

qwertyman said:


> Can I go home now?



"Son, you're a crab. Never forget that. Never be ashamed of what you are. You're a crab, everywhere you go is home." (bullet grazes a grizzled hand.) "Now get out there are die for your country!" (Pushes qwertyman back out on the line.)


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## Myers (Aug 20, 2013)

qwertyman said:


> Can I go home now?



No. If you really want to properly disseminate this important information, you need to start a thread devoted to it.


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## Odd Greg (Aug 20, 2013)

Once upon a time, a grizzled old man with a cane strolled into a town square with his monochrome horse in tow. He stopped at the fountain to give his horse a drink, and to wash his hands.

A townsman came forward from a tavern directly across from the fountain, and approached him.

“Good Morrow, Stranger. Welcome to Fountain Head. State your intentions.”

“Well met, Sire. I have come firstly to give my weary companion a drink, and to wash the journey from my hands,” he said. “Further, I have come to read tealeaves and to have my tealeaves read by those of your townsfolk that would wish it. I have come with tea and a well-experienced pot of my own making.”

“I see,” said the townsman. “We have much tea for reading, and are happy to receive tea readings from any who cross through the town arch. Welcome! Freely take your horse to the stable where he will…”

“She,” the old man said.

“Yes, she then. Where she will be washed and groomed, should you wish it,” the townsman said with a shallow bow. “And please, do not call me Sire, for I am only a fellow in this town.”

“As you will have it, good fellow,” the old man said, and then continued to the stable with his horse.

Within a fortnight’s time, the old man had run out of tea. Only the pot remained. Shamed by this event, he was of the mind to change his agreement with the town and the good fellows and ladies he had come to know. This was the custom in the country where he had lived before taking his leave on sabbatical.

On he morning, he returned with his horse, and stood nearby the fountain. There, he rang a triangle thrice, which signaled the townsfolk that a public message imminent. Some came, and others stood in windows, waiting.

“Dear Townsfolk,” he spoke, holding his cane up high.

“With heavy heart, I must bow from the duties I have promised on my arrival. I no longer can read your tealeaves, for I have grown weary of the message, and my heart is not what it once was. In return, however, I pledge that I would happily comment on the flavor of the tea, and of the patterns that the leaves etch at the bottom of the cup. Of this purpose I would dedicate myself, were it to be to your advantage.”

There was a moment of silence. It was the sort of silence that made his mare fidget.

“But we have no use for tea tasters!” shouted someone from the rooming house.

“What benefit to our town if all you offer is hoity-toity impressions of the pictures the tea makes in the cup?” shouted another.

“I see no logic in this,” stated the librarian. “It makes no sense to come to this town and not read tealeaves. Blasphemy!”

A child ran up to the old man and hugged his leg.

“But I like him!” she said. “He smells of elderberries.”

“What point,” began the barman, “is there in making this announcement at all? Surely I couldn’t care less. You bring attention to yourself! This is your true purpose!”

“I shall no longer stir my tea this way, but now that way,” said a young man, just as he walked past the old man and onward to the brothel.

The old man began addressing each complaint; making what attempt he could to reason with the town. But blood was in the air, and the hawks circled.

“What shall we do, my old friend,” he said to Shadow, his horse.

“Take the old mare to the glue factory! That would benefit the town!” someone shouted. A young woman pressed her palms to her mouth in shock.

“Now, now, everyone,” said an elder of the town. “Give the man his due. We are not unreasonable people.” He nodded courteously to the old man. Another elder called out from his chair near the tavern.

“Enough of this hogwash!”

A finely dressed woman of stature approached him, and then slapped him with her gloves.

“How dare you claim to know tealeaf readings and then clearly state that you have no interested in the art? I find your announcement, and your reasoning, to be… stupid!” She whirled around and walked briskly away.

“Townspeople, “ The old man shouted. “I see that this entire affair has disturbed the peace. I mean no harm to you or your good traditions. I will consult with my talismans and decide what I must do.”

A young man stood, upset.

“And now how will I receive the tealeaf readings I came to this town to receive? Is it all now pointless?”

And another spoke.

“Exactly. How am I to know if Janice will marry me if tealeaf readings are no longer given?”

“But, I am only one…” began the old man.

“This is a very bad precedent,” someone said, and walked away, shaking his head.

The old man stood, thinking of what he should do or say. He decided that no good would come of continuing. He turned toward the town arch and began walking with Shadow in tow. A young woman, looking to have had enough, pulled up on her skirt and rushed to the old man.

“Take no offense to the town, old man,” she said. “They mean well. If you would like to appraise tealeaves for me, then I would be willing. Sometimes, perhaps rarely but sometimes, the smell of the tea and its color has a meaning. It’s not much, but you are welcome to try.”

The old man looked at her. His face softened.

“I will from this day forward be branded a heretic, young lady. How then will I ever receive another tealeaf reading in this town?”

“Oh, heretics have a place,” she said. “Just not too many at once. And I will read your tealeaves, old man. Without prejudice.”

The old man shook his head and laughed softly.

“Your kindness may well brand you a heretic, too,” he said.

“Oh, I doubt that very much,” she said. “I’m much too pretty for that.”

And together they laughed, and walked toward the tavern for a drink. Shadow followed faithfully behind.

It takes all kinds to make a town.


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## Myers (Aug 20, 2013)

You're making a mountain out of a molehill. And frankly, it's coming off as attention seeking. You're just one of many people who are here to participate and make an effort to help other writers. Most of us just go about it quietly without making a big deal out of it.

A writer might care about whatever you offer in the way of feedback. But I'm betting people don't care all that much about your motivations or why you choose to offer a specific kind of feedback. Just do what you want to do. People can decide for themselves whether or not it's of any value.


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## Jon M (Aug 20, 2013)

Odd Greg said:


> A finely dressed woman of stature approached him, and then slapped him with her gloves.
> 
> “How dare you claim to know tealeaf readings and then clearly state that you have no interested in the art? I find your announcement, and your reasoning, to be… stupid!” She whirled around and walked briskly away.


lasm should get an Academy Award for this performance.


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## Kevin (Aug 20, 2013)

*self-edit*


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## With intensity (Aug 23, 2013)

Totally disagree with the comment " you should learn the art of critique."  Some people are good at cooking, some are good at eating.


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## Myers (Aug 23, 2013)

It's not really about "should." Here anyway, it's mostly about reciprocity. If you want critiques, you'll need to give them; in which case it's mostly a matter of doing the best you can.


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