# Coronavirus related conversation



## Irwin (Feb 29, 2020)

We had our first coronavirus death in the U.S. last night in Washington state. That's only the beginning. We're all gonna die!!!

We're at risk in crowded, indoor places. People with jobs such as cashiers and healthcare workers come in direct contact with a large number of people every day, which must be bad enough, considering the quality of people in the world, but now they're at risk of catching a deadly virus from them. And if cashiers catch it, they'll no doubt spread it to other customers while the virus is incubating and before any symptoms appear. And a lot of cashiers probably can't afford to take time off of work, so they'll go to work even if they have symptoms.

This might be a good time to try grocery delivery. King Soopers has free grocery shipping for orders over $35 dollars. There's a chance that somebody with the coronavirus could have sneezed on your groceries, but the risk of catching it is probably quite small as long as you wash your hands before you stick your grimy little fingers in your mouth.

This has been a public service announcement.


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## -xXx- (Feb 29, 2020)

Irwin said:


> This has been a public service announcement.


_
*feels served*
*plans on dying eventually*
*licks doorknob*
*slams dew*
*'cuz that'll kill *anything**_


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## PiP (Feb 29, 2020)

Just remember to keep washing your hands ...


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## KenTR (Feb 29, 2020)

No need to worry. Mike "Smoking Doesn't Kill" Pence is on it.


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## escorial (Feb 29, 2020)

Luv it


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## Biro (Feb 29, 2020)

Can you catch it from dodgy websites like this?     :redface2:


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## Phil Istine (Mar 1, 2020)

Irwin said:


> This might be a good time to try grocery delivery. King Soopers has free grocery shipping for orders over $35 dollars. There's a chance that somebody with the coronavirus could have sneezed on your groceries, but the risk of catching it is probably quite small as long as you wash your hands before you stick your grimy little fingers in your mouth.
> 
> This has been a public service announcement.



You mean deliveries like this:


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## Tirralirra (Mar 3, 2020)

“...
All things to end are made,
The plague full swift goes by;
I am sick, I must die.
Lord, have mercy on us!
...”


A Litany in Time of Plague - Thomas Nashe


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## Sam (Mar 3, 2020)

Do you know how many people die of the flu every single year? Fifty thousand, on average, every year without fail. 

The coronavirus has not even killed five thousand. 

Do you worry about the flu killing everyone? No, you don't, but looking at the above figures you probably should. Why don't you? Because every news station, newspaper, and radio isn't constantly talking about the deadly flu. If they were, you wouldn't leave the house. 

The coronavirus is an example of conversion disorder, also known as mass hysteria, and I guarantee you in three months' time no one will be talking about it. It'll have died and we'll never hear of it again. Just the same as swine flu, avian bird flu, and the Ebola Zaire scare of a few years back.


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## PiP (Mar 3, 2020)

'Corona' is the secret weapon of mass destruction.

Seriously, there has been so many cases reported where my daughter lives in France she has asked us to cancel our visit.


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## Theglasshouse (Mar 3, 2020)

I saw something I read in a news report while in the United States. I don't know how true to the facts it is. Especially since I was never that age.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1918-commemoration/1918-pandemic-history.htm

I won't compare it to corona yet. One of my aunts has influenza, which is supposedly the flu, which I don't know if the internet has mentioned it by the correct name of the sickness.


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## Darkkin (Mar 3, 2020)

More people died in the tornado in Nashville today than have died from COVID19, thus far in the US (Is it a serious illness, yes, but it has thankfully proven less lethal than Influenza A and B.  It is the new It Virus.  Those at greatest risk are the very young, the elderly, the immuno-compromised, and those with weakened respitory systems.  The same groups at highest risk for nearly all infections.)...(And influenza strains are all members of the corona virus family).

And sadly, there are people here, (in the US) that think the virus can be spread by drinking Corona brand beer...(The company has suffered their worst earnings quarter ever.)


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## escorial (Mar 3, 2020)

I stood and listened to 3 street preachers screaming you do believe...just don't know it...an not once did they bring up the virus....earlier I was in Paddy's wigwam to admire the building and not one mention of it all...one always expects the religious to jump on the bandwagon..


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## Foxee (Mar 3, 2020)

escorial said:


> one always expects the religious to jump on the bandwagon..


Interesting. What would lead to that expectation? How are you defining 'the religious'? That seems like quite a hazy lumping together of people and expecting the same thing of all of them.


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## Ma'am (Mar 3, 2020)

I'm no expert but from what I've gathered, coronavirus has barely gotten started in the US yet but much more is expected/feared to come. And it supposedly spreads much easier than the flu and also has a far higher mortality rate than flu.

However, with contradictory sources, it's hard to know what's accurate and what's not and also quite possible that we just don't have the full picture yet. 

For example, does the mortality rate mean overall or only from those ill enough to be hospitalized when perhaps most weren't? And can we trust the data we get from all of the other countries?

Like everyone, I hope it's going to be more bark than bite and just drift away...


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## Biro (Mar 3, 2020)

Alcohol sanitiser hand gels are being sold out everywhere for people to wash their hands as a protection.  People are even making their own hand wash gel with 'how to' videos springing up on Youtube.

I am ok and possibly immune because if alcohol kills Coronavirus.  I aim to drink even more.


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## Darkkin (Mar 3, 2020)

According to the CDC malaria kills up to 445,000 people worldwide each year.  Nearly half the world's population is at endemic risk of exposure from the ubiquitious mosquito.  Another 20,000 died from staph infections in 2017 in the US, and staph is an endemic bacteria found in the human mouth.  

Pandemics occur, history makes that abundantly clear, but the numbers of deadly COVID19 worldwide, do not reflect those of other pandemics like Spanish Flu, Small Pox, Polio, Tuberculosis, and encephalitis lethargica just from the 20th century alone. Look at the numbers of deaths from ebola and it will help put things in perspective. 3,296 cases in 2019, of those 2,196 were fatal.  That is a 67 % mortality rate.  

I guess I'm of the view point that commonsense things like good hygiene, proper handwashing, and staying away from other when you are ill will go a long way toward reducing already, seemingly slender odds of contracting the virus.

  And looking into the definition of pandemic, it merely means the spread of a disease over a large geographic area (a whole county, continent, or the world).  It has nothing to do with mortality rates, but given the context in which people have come to understand the word, (e.g. Spanish Flu, Bubonic Plague), death is a consequence that is inferred.  And it is the inference of death that is often the trigger to ensuing panic.

Just some thoughts.

- D.


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## Biro (Mar 3, 2020)

Darkkin said:


> According to the CDC malaria kills up to 445,000 people worldwide each year.  Nearly half the world's population is at endemic risk of exposure from the ubiquitious mosquito.  Another 20,000 died from staph infections in 2017 in the US, and staph is an endemic bacteria found in the human mouth.
> 
> Pandemics occur, history makes that abundantly clear, but the numbers of deadly COVID19 worldwide, do not reflect those of other pandemics like Spanish Flu, Small Pox, Polio, Tuberculosis, and encephalitis lethargica just from the 20th century alone. Look at the numbers of deaths from ebola and it will help put things in perspective. 3,296 cases in 2019, of those 2,196 were fatal.  That is a 67 % mortality rate.
> 
> ...


Well you make valid points but in this case there are a few issues which do not make sense.

Most of the figures come from China where the virus started.  It's not really in their interest to tell the world this stuff is really bad and very contagious killing thousands.  In fact it would be better to say that....'Nah it's nothing to worry about'.

If it was just a case of a simple flu type of thing, then why would they have gone to all the measures they did? For example building emergency hospitals for thousands in just a couple of weeks?  Isolating complete areas?  Sterilising bank notes and all the other stuff in the news?  If it just a little nothing thing that only harms a tiny percentage of people who are old and sick.  Then why all the drastic measures?

Then you have the other Governments around the world going into overdrive over something which is just a little sniffle.

A bit more to this I think.  Thing is when Governments tell you something it may be best to look for what they aren't telling you.


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## Theglasshouse (Mar 3, 2020)

To be fair a sneeze can be only what it takes to contaminate money and can infect a person. People who pass away from corona spread it easily but it is not making sense how. It spreads more easily but not much more than influenza once did I think based on history that one 3rd of the world population had it once(more at the link) (a vaccine was invented for influenza which they even gave me and everyone has them as required for schools I assume and that is why we are safer). People can be careless such as when they have influenza, corona,  or when they have a cold to wash their hands. In addition, they have to take a bath to hope they don't get infected because of a low immune system defenses. With some education a lot of disaster scenarios can be avoided with the coronavirus. Exercise will also help prevent it. The diabetic population supposedly is especially vulnerble but not without hope. International efforts and the news helps just as hospitals to prevent contamination and spreading of the sickness.

I'd admit not sanitizing money would be a terrible way to get it. Make sure to take lots of vitamin C and lemon juice, or citrus daily. Use hand liquid soaps. Don't say hello with your hands or shake hands. Read how to sanitize money if it is a worry. Obviously no hugs, kisses (avoid contact with the hands). People who get it show no symptoms for days. It is transmitted by minute teardrops. For example after a sneeze, and also make sure to cover your mouth with your arm when you sneeze.

How does a vaccine work? They give you a dead or nearly dead virus and your body creates antibodies for it. You are immune after that. This one mutates, but I don't know how that affects the situation such as finding a cure for it. A mutation could in some diseases create immunity to a vaccine.


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## escorial (Mar 4, 2020)

Experience from a young age with religious people...all want you to think like them...and pay for them but never question them...what ever disaster looms they use it as a PR stunt... maybe there changing tack as I've noticed a god squad standing around offering free booklets and only engage when people ask or the door to door sales rep who offer you damnation and salvation...best quote I've heard is politicians have failed so why not give religion a try...


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## Foxee (Mar 4, 2020)

That's a shame, escorial, and I can't speak for the 'religious' people who you've been in contact with, obviously. I, too, have a problem with being told what to think and how which is why I don't pay attention to television much anymore and the teachers of political correctness in general (most of whom seem to be secular but quite religious in promoting a certain way of thinking).

Edited to get back on topic: I also don't trust the hype surrounding the corona virus fears. Not because there isn't something to worry about (Other strains of the flu that we consider pretty commonplace now used to kill in much-higher numbers) but because I have the feeling that somehow a good crisis isn't being wasted.


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## escorial (Mar 4, 2020)

I forgive them all.....


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## Biro (Mar 4, 2020)

Foxee said:


> Edited to get back on topic: I also don't trust the hype surrounding the corona virus fears. Not because there isn't something to worry about (Other strains of the flu that we consider pretty commonplace now used to kill in much-higher numbers) but because I have the feeling that somehow a good crisis isn't being wasted.



And you are most possibly correct.  But even so it doesnt really hurt to just make preparations just 'in case'.


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## Foxee (Mar 4, 2020)

Biro said:


> And you are most possibly correct.  But even so it doesnt really hurt to just make preparations just 'in case'.


Hence the 'not that there isn't anything to worry about' comment.

The text of this meme might help us all...aren't memes generally helpful?

Neil Diamond: Hands
CDC: Yes, wash them for at least 20 seconds
Neil Diamond: Touching hands
CDC: No, please don’t touch hands
Neil Diamond: Reaching out
CDC: Avoid that too
Neil Diamond: Touching me
CDC: Oh hell
Neil Diamond: TOUCHING YOU
CDC: We’re doomed


_(CDC is acronym for Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)_


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## KenTR (Mar 4, 2020)

As someone with OCD bad enough to warrant disability payments and two kinds of medications, and whose obsessions are largely centered around germs, contamination and infections, the fact that I don't give a frog's fat ass about the coronavirus should speak volumes.


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## escorial (Mar 4, 2020)

Don't panic... Don't panic



new pair of slippers for hospital/stadium


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## PiP (Mar 5, 2020)

Today I went to the local pharmacy to buy a couple of face masks and alcohol disinfectant hand spray. (My husband is one of the people at high risk). While I was queuing, a customer at the counter was coughing into the air without any attempt to cover his mouth or use a handkerchief. Not only that, he coughed straight into the face of the pharmacist who was serving him. I was horrified. When it was my turn to be served I asked the pharmacist, given the current situation with Coronavirus, WHY the staff are not wearing masks? Poor guy looked at me and then to the Boss ... and replied they are not allowed to wear them yet! Then shrugged his shoulders.


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## SueC (Mar 5, 2020)

PiP said:


> Today I went to the local pharmacy to buy a couple of face masks and alcohol disinfectant hand spray. (My husband is one of the people at high risk). While I was queuing, a customer at the counter was coughing into the air without any attempt to cover his mouth or use a handkerchief. Not only that, he coughed straight into the face of the pharmacist who was serving him. I was horrified. When it was my turn to be served I asked the pharmacist, given the current situation with Coronavirus, WHY the staff are not wearing masks? Poor guy looked at me and then to the Boss ... and replied they are not allowed to wear them yet! Then shrugged his shoulders.



That is horrible! I think, if we find it containable at all, the reason it won't be will be because of what you just described, Carole. I read an article this morning about a university professor (New Hampshire) who, last Friday, was told to quarantine at home because he had flu-like symptoms, but went to a college mixer on Friday night anyway. On Monday he was diagnosed with corona virus, and has now potentially infected all of the kids and staff at that mixer. No consequences for his behavior was reported, and the question was asked, _what do you do with people who refuse to comply with recommended quarantine?_ I don't know the answer to that, but I do know the probable result. It could be a real life disaster movie. So sad and it makes me angry.


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## PiP (Mar 5, 2020)

KenTR said:


> As someone with OCD bad enough to warrant disability payments and two kinds of medications, and whose obsessions are largely centered around germs, contamination and infections, the fact that I don't give a frog's fat ass about the coronavirus should speak volumes.



Your issues are physiological and you are obviously not  'AT RISK': aka Heart disease, low-immunity, AS, Emphysema to name a few. We don't live in a bubble. Our community is multi-national and travels all over Europe... many have just returned from Italy, France, Spain, Tenerife and UK from areas that are affected. Italy being the worst.



> That is horrible! I think, if we find it containable at all, the reason it won't be will be because of what you just described, Carole. I read an article this morning about a university professor (New Hampshire) who, last Friday, was told to quarantine at home because he had flu-like symptoms, but went to a college mixer on Friday night anyway. On Monday he was diagnosed with corona virus, and has now potentially infected all of the kids and staff at that mixer. No consequences for his behavior was reported, and the question was asked, _what do you do with people who refuse to comply with recommended quarantine? I don't know the answer to that, but I do know the probable result. It could be a real life disaster movie. So sad and it makes me angry. :sad:_



It's just plain selfish. He should be sacked.

Because of my husband's medical condition we have to take the warnings seriously. Even our daughter told us to cancel our visit to France.


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## Theglasshouse (Mar 5, 2020)

Now I am wondering if my mom and dad should wear these masks when they go to hospitals. A similar situation was present. People coughed and did not cover their mouths. And even my oldest brother that works with a lot of people since his one of the bosses in his own job should probably wear a mask.


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## Phil Istine (Mar 5, 2020)

I'll have to start eating pizzas, because that's all they can fit under the door.


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## escorial (Mar 5, 2020)

The end is nigh..BONo...will save us


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## Biro (Mar 6, 2020)

escorial said:


> The end is nigh..BONo...will save us



If he doesn't I am sure he will tell us where we all went wrong and whose fault it is.


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## escorial (Mar 6, 2020)

If only the world would listen to him...the world of pop music will save humanity...


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## Biro (Mar 6, 2020)

His rants at least make him feel better.  I liken him to a mini pound shop John Lennon.  Poor old John was a bit of a pain in his day as well.


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## escorial (Mar 6, 2020)

I just hope the Royal family survive..as the prince said..there are to many people in the world

[video=youtube_share;QvLtVoidITM]https://youtu.be/QvLtVoidITM[/video]


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## JohnCalliganWrites (Mar 6, 2020)

SueC said:


> That is horrible! I think, if we find it containable at all, the reason it won't be will be because of what you just described, Carole. I read an article this morning about a university professor (New Hampshire) who, last Friday, was told to quarantine at home because he had flu-like symptoms, but went to a college mixer on Friday night anyway. On Monday he was diagnosed with corona virus, and has now potentially infected all of the kids and staff at that mixer. No consequences for his behavior was reported, and the question was asked, _what do you do with people who refuse to comply with recommended quarantine?_ I don't know the answer to that, but I do know the probable result. It could be a real life disaster movie. So sad and it makes me angry.



Follow them with a little robot helicopter that shouts “cooties! cooties!” Until they go home.


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## Amnesiac (Mar 6, 2020)

In my typical "whistling past the graveyard," I'm thinking that 7.5 billion "little miracles" is clearly ENOUGH!! Time to start culling the herd and maybe knock the population down by about a third... That oughta' do nicely. Yep Yep!


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## Ma'am (Mar 6, 2020)

It must be a nightmare for those whose immune system or that of a loved one is compromised. I guess you'd just have to try to stay largely isolated for the time being. 

I've heard it might improve with warmer weather but don't know if that's accurate.


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## KenTR (Mar 7, 2020)

It's fine...everything will be fine.


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## SueC (Mar 7, 2020)

Ma'am said:


> It must be a nightmare for those whose immune system or that of a loved one is compromised. I guess you'd just have to try to stay largely isolated for the time being.
> 
> I've heard it might improve with warmer weather but don't know if that's accurate.



Trump is an expert on that too!
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...aside-warmer-weather-may-not-slow-coronavirus


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## Amnesiac (Mar 7, 2020)




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## Amnesiac (Mar 7, 2020)




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## Biro (Mar 7, 2020)

SueC said:


> Trump is an expert on that too!
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...aside-warmer-weather-may-not-slow-coronavirus



What no one blamed him for the disease yet?......There's a first.  Maybe they will find a way yet.


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## Biro (Mar 7, 2020)

We used to have a famous fizzy drink brand back in the 60's and 70's in the uk.

https://www.facebook.com/badairies/photos/a.250463541702759/2420823488000076/?type=3&theater


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## Ma'am (Mar 8, 2020)

From what I hear, hand sanitizer is sold out everywhere around here. But apparently, you can make your own from alcohol and aloe vera. But hand sanitizer supposedly kills the good germs too and makes them grow back last, unlike soap and water?

I am also wondering about the non-perishable food issue. I've read that people should get a month's supply of it in case they have to stay home and/or because they're expecting the store shelves to be emptied as others stock up. So if you don't get it now, then there might not be any left. But then, many people can't afford to buy a month's worth of non-perishables at a time so that would leave nothing for them.

So far, I've pretty much done nothing different. I wash my hands a lot anyway. Youse?


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## JohnCalliganWrites (Mar 8, 2020)

Ma'am said:


> From what I hear, hand sanitizer is sold out everywhere around here. But apparently, you can make your own from alcohol and aloe vera. But hand sanitizer supposedly kills the good germs too and makes them grow back last, unlike soap and water?
> 
> I am also wondering about the non-perishable food issue. I've read that people should get a month's supply of it in case they have to stay home and/or because they're expecting the store shelves to be emptied as others stock up. So if you don't get it now, then there might not be any left. But then, many people can't afford to buy a month's worth of non-perishables at a time so that would leave nothing for them.
> 
> So far, I've pretty much done nothing different. I wash my hands a lot anyway. Youse?



A month worth of food can be purchased pretty economically. Mine is all rice, dried beans, canned vegetables / meat, and butter in the freezer.

Edit: Actually, I forgot to pick up butter. I still need paper products as well. I did manage to get half a dozen bottles of wine and some boxes of stove top. Plus I have my big ol' blue water barrel from Field and Stream, though I should get another.


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## Phil Istine (Mar 10, 2020)

Apparently,  the early symptoms of coronavirus mimic OCD; people start washing their hands a lot  more before experiencing a compulsion to go out and stockpile toilet  rolls, pasta, porridge, and rice.  If you have been experiencing such  symptoms, you're probably infected already.


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## PiP (Mar 10, 2020)

JohnCalliganWrites said:


> A month worth of food can be purchased pretty economically. Mine is all rice, dried beans, canned vegetables / meat, and butter in the freezer.
> 
> Edit: Actually, I forgot to pick up butter. I still need paper products as well. I did manage to get half a dozen bottles of wine and some boxes of stove top. Plus I have my big ol' blue water barrel from Field and Stream, though I should get another.



Yep, we also stocked up on wine, gin and tonic.

Toilet rolls? I don't understand why people are panic buying toilet rolls in the UK. I must have different priorities. 

Now we are all self-isolating I expect plenty of creative works to be posted to WF and lots of submissions to Flashes.


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## Phil Istine (Mar 10, 2020)

PiP said:


> Yep, we also stocked up on wine, gin and tonic.
> 
> Toilet rolls? I don't understand why people are panic buying toilet rolls in the UK. I must have different priorities.
> 
> Now we are all self-isolating I expect plenty of creative works to be posted to WF and lots of submissions to Flashes.



About this self-isolating: I wonder if I'll notice a difference.
I think the bog roll stockpiling was because some people couldn't get hold of tissues, so bog roll is a substitute.


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## Biro (Mar 10, 2020)

Phil Istine said:


> About this self-isolating: I wonder if I'll notice a difference.
> I think the bog roll stockpiling was because some people couldn't get hold of tissues, so bog roll is a substitute.



Yes true and  I think I have figured stock piling out.  In days gone by if your elders ran out or couldn't afford toilet roll then cutting the daily newspaper up into correct sized squares was the order of the day.

So after reading the daily newspaper in days of old it was used as toilet paper, something to wrap the fish & chips in, light the fire, put down on kitchen table when polishing boots, and as a cat/puppy litter..........plus many more things.

A 'wonder' material.  Because we dont buy newspapers anymore we are lost.  Hence stock up with toilet roll as it can be used similarly for many things............except wrapping the fish & chips in. :-?

If you dont understand the post you are not old enough...........lucky you.


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## PiP (Mar 10, 2020)

Biro, I remember fish n' chips wrapped in newspaper! Now it comes in 'twee' polystyrene trays


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## Ma'am (Mar 10, 2020)

Ah, I see. Bog roll= toilet paper. Got it.


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## bazz cargo (Mar 10, 2020)

All true.. But at least I have my flu jab. 





Sam said:


> Do you know how many people die of the flu every single year? Fifty thousand, on average, every year without fail.
> 
> The coronavirus has not even killed five thousand.
> 
> ...


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## Amnesiac (Mar 10, 2020)

Stockpiling beans and rice (and coffee) is always a good idea. Of course, a steady diet of beans and rice, and you'll be able to produce your own methane for powering small appliances and such.


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## SueC (Mar 10, 2020)

Biro said:


> So after reading the daily newspaper in days of old it was used as toilet paper, something to wrap the fish & chips in, light the fire, put down on kitchen table when polishing boots, and as a cat/puppy litter..........plus many more things.
> u.



Don't forget the bottom of the bird cage. That's one I remember.


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## Biro (Mar 11, 2020)

SueC said:


> Don't forget the bottom of the bird cage. That's one I remember.



I still remember how to light a coal fire with just newspaper.  An art in itself.

I remember making christmas decorations out of newspaper.

It was regularly used as wrapping paper for everything in days of old.  (actually not that long ago)  Fresh fish was always wrapped in it as was bloody meat.

Grease paper for protecting metal products in industry. (newspaper soaked in an oil/grease mixture)

Heads of Guy Fawkes for Bonfire Night. (papermashe......chopped newspaper soaked with flour and water wrapped around a balloon)

I can remember it being used to pack out shoes that were loose and help wet football boots keep their shape as they dried.

I have probably forgot just as many things.  I dont think bog/toilet roll will come anywhere near although it does have many uses.


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## KenTR (Mar 11, 2020)

I arrive at my client's house this morning and the first thing she does is squirt hand sanitizer on me. She doesn't even wait for me to put my hands out. It gets all over my jacket and drips on her dog. Then she goes back on Facebook to read about how there's nowhere to run, nowhere to hide.

If I hear one more PSA about washing my hands for thirty seconds or covering my mouth when I cough I'm going to implode. I've yet to hear one word of advice about maintaining a healthy lifestyle to keep your immune system strong. 

Raw garlic is the best for bolstering your immunity and protecting yourself against infections. Yogurt is good, too, as are mushrooms, onions and foods rich in vitamin C. 

Proper sleep is important, too. So is avoiding stress. 

Long term use of hand sanitizer has been linked to a compromised immune system. It can also dry out your hands, causing tiny cracks to form in the skin which would render hand washing pointless.

I say embrace the virus. It could be up to a year before a vaccine is available. If you're not elderly or otherwise at high risk, why not allow your body to vaccinate itself? Go catch a bus and lick everybody on it. You might even make a friend! Then, buy some ice cream, go home, switch on your Netflix and wait for your body to produce its own antibodies. 

Or, you could just coat yourself in rubbing alcohol and wrap yourself in plastic for the next twelve months.

Each year, hundreds of people die due to complications from the common cold. 

Jeez.


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## Amnesiac (Mar 11, 2020)

Well, I'll have you know, my mother washed my mouth out with soap all the time when I was a boy. In fact, she did it so much, I've rarely ever been sick!


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## Theglasshouse (Mar 11, 2020)

I got a b+ I think years ago when I saw my kindergarten report card for washing hands. It was in the basement of an old house with books but then but you still should get something from this grade notification.


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## PiP (Mar 12, 2020)

An interesting response to the pandemic by President Trump
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/11/us/politics/trump-coronavirus-speech.html


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## Phil Istine (Mar 12, 2020)

China bans movement of people.
Italy bans movement of people and shuts down many 'non-essential' businesses.
USA bans travel from European Schengen area....................................................

UK trims interest rates.

Sounds like keep calm ... and get sick.


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## escorial (Mar 12, 2020)

It can be slowed down but it's not going to stop it...


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## dither (Mar 12, 2020)

However many, whatever precautions can be taken, I think this thing will just have to run it's course and the world will go on turning.


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## Irwin (Mar 12, 2020)

After kicking myself for rolling my 401K into an IRA last year, just before another big rally, it now looks like it wasn't such a bad move. My investment strategy is generally to buy high and sell low, which hasn't worked out all that well for my portfolio, such as it is. Now it looks like it was a good move.


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## Irwin (Mar 12, 2020)

On the lighter side of the novel coronavirus pandemic, Trump met with Brazil's dictator a few days ago along with other officials from the dictator's administration--one of whom has tested positive for the virus. Trump must be scared to death!


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## JohnCalliganWrites (Mar 12, 2020)

escorial said:


> It can be slowed down but it's not going to stop it...



The slow down is huge. They are just trying to pace the illness out so that they don't run out of ICU rooms while it is going on.


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## KenTR (Mar 12, 2020)

Irwin said:


> On the lighter side of the novel coronavirus pandemic, Trump met with Brazil's dictator a few days ago along with other officials from the dictator's administration--one of whom has tested positive for the virus. Trump must be scared to death!



He's in a high risk group. But I'd be willing to bet he's more scared of bad polling numbers, Nancy Pelosi, and the possibility that his next bucket of KFC won't be hot enough.


----------



## Biro (Mar 12, 2020)

KenTR said:


> He's in a high risk group. But I'd be willing to bet he's more scared of bad polling numbers, Nancy Pelosi, and the possibility that his next bucket of KFC won't be hot enough.


Why would he be scared.  He and the others will get a big fat pension whereas you will get??????????


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## KenTR (Mar 12, 2020)

Biro said:


> Why would he be scared.  He and the others will get a big fat pension whereas you will get??????????



I'll get the virus and a big fat medical bill.

On another related topic, I think it's sad that it takes a global pandemic to get the American media to stop it's nonsense and here's why: this morning one of the first news stories I saw was that Tom Hanks has tested positive. Oh no! Say it isn't so! _Not Tom Hanks!!!

_To the media's credit, however, I have not yet seen that story repeated. It's just one of many. Now, if this had been a normal newsday, and Mr. Hanks had fallen and chipped a tooth or something, that's all we'd hear for weeks. But it seems to have slipped through the cracks because there are more important things to report. 

On the other hand, several posts on Facebook have reported that people who have died from the virus are apparently rising from the dead to infect the living. A pandemic and a zombie apocalypse all in one! Thankfully, Kim Kardashian and Justin "Has He Been Found Dead In A Hotel Room Yet?" Bieber have been frozen and shot into space so that if and when this is all over those that remain may once again grovel at their feet and worship their awesome pointlessness.


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## Biro (Mar 12, 2020)

KenTR said:


> I'll get the virus and a big fat medical bill.
> 
> On another related topic, I think it's sad that it takes a global pandemic to get the American media to stop it's nonsense and here's why: this morning one of the first news stories I saw was that Tom Hanks has tested positive. Oh no! Say it isn't so! _Not Tom Hanks!!!
> 
> ...



Yeah but have they got any toilet roll?


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## Phil Istine (Mar 12, 2020)

You all thought the bees had died, didn't you?

On another note, I haven't heard anyone complain about Muslim women covering their faces recently.


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## Biro (Mar 13, 2020)

That could be because they are dropping faster than rain drops out there.  Mass graves in Iran.  Being as they wear veils and arent allowed to intermingle with others isnt doing them much good.

I suspect that the real total of deaths is being covered up in many countries.


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## escorial (Mar 13, 2020)

I've often thought how important the NHS is to the UK and the aparthy towards it by the publlic over the years while the Government  has put money before health.......


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## andrewclunn (Mar 13, 2020)

Can't trust Iranian or Chinese numbers.  Italian numbers look FAR worse.  The only cheerful views on this seems to be the almost universally wishing and hoping that the leaders, celebrities, or figures and such from whatever group(s) someone doesn't like contract the disease.  This has shown me that the notion of putting aside squabbles or narrative gamesmanship for dealing with real problems is not something the vast majority of people are capable of, and I'd be a fool to throw in my lot with larger modern society.  Glad I've stocked up well before this became mainstream.  Probably won't be able to avoid this due to my daughter's age making her such a likely vector for exposure from peers.  I think I'm just disgusted enough that I'll be just fine with watching the world burn at this point.  Humanity finally broke me from my hope and respect for them.  It's for me and mine now, and it wasn't fear of the virus, or supply chain break down, or economic depression that got to me.  It's the casual and callous hatred and desire for the suffering of others as a bright spot clung to by nearly ever faction that seems to want to rule in hell rather than serve in heaven.  We aren't worth saving.


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## Biro (Mar 13, 2020)

andrewclunn said:


> Can't trust Iranian or Chinese numbers.  Italian numbers look FAR worse.  The only cheerful views on this seems to be the almost universally wishing and hoping that the leaders, celebrities, or figures and such from whatever group(s) someone doesn't like contract the disease.  This has shown me that the notion of putting aside squabbles or narrative gamesmanship for dealing with real problems is not something the vast majority of people are capable of, and I'd be a fool to throw in my lot with larger modern society.  Glad I've stocked up well before this became mainstream.  Probably won't be able to avoid this due to my daughter's age making her such a likely vector for exposure from peers.  I think I'm just disgusted enough that I'll be just fine with watching the world burn at this point.  Humanity finally broke me from my hope and respect for them.  It's for me and mine now, and it wasn't fear of the virus, or supply chain break down, or economic depression that got to me.  It's the casual and callous hatred and desire for the suffering of others as a bright spot clung to by nearly ever faction that seems to want to rule in hell rather than serve in heaven.  We aren't worth saving.



They say this is affecting the old and ill greatly.  As if those people do not have enough to trouble themselves with.

Europe is now the worlds hotspot and its getting worse and will be greatly worse I think.   I remember when people raised the points of disease problems when those who spouted about and championed 'open borders' and 'free movement'.  They said this kind of thing would never happen.  Well it has and people have died and will die because of such.  How did humans manage to survive this long?  They are so stupid.


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## PiP (Mar 13, 2020)

Our town is now in lockdown before the dreaded Cv has arrived. Now we stay at home or only go to sit on the cliff tops in the car to see the sunset. No social interaction. Thank God we live on the edge of nowhere. Unlike Boris, Portugal is not waiting to see what happens. We have all seen what has happened in Italy, France and now Spain. A friends daughter was kicked off a campsite because Corona had arrived there and told to leave ... go home. I don't think some people appreciate how serious this is. Stay safe everyone.


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## Foxee (Mar 13, 2020)

Seems like  now there is no conversation that doesn't include the damned bug. The way the hysteria has gone viral leaves even the idea of physical outbreak gasping to catch up.


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## Biro (Mar 13, 2020)

Foxee said:


> Seems like  now there is no conversation that doesn't include the damned bug. The way the hysteria has gone viral leaves even the idea of physical outbreak gasping to catch up.



Oh I see.  Looks like toilet rolls again then.


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## JohnCalliganWrites (Mar 13, 2020)

I'm looking forward to reading about this when it is all over if I don't die. Our governor (Ohio) was on Fox News today saying they believe 1% of people in the state are carrying the virus. I was the sickest I have ever been last week so hopefully I had it already and I'm not just going to get something worse in a few weeks lol.

For the worst two days, I couldn't read or play video games. I'm on the sofa watching documentaries about Kung Fu movies and famous power lifters and shit. I'm watching anime. I'm watching Star Trek the Next Generation. Sick.


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## clark (Mar 13, 2020)

My doctor told me this morning that if you're over 80 and you contract this virus, regardless of the modern health care standards and modernity of your country, the odds are about 95% that it's going to kill you. It's that virulent and that 'efficient' at its work. Her advice to us older folks? Stay home. Period. And watch the news. Wash your hands with soap and water--*never with the gel  *hand cleaner stuff you see everywhere.* Phone *your doctor about any other routine health issues, rather than visit the office. If you are in this elderly group and you permit your family dog or cat to lick your face (so cute!) . . .stop that!! The Bubonic Plague in Eurasia and Europe, 1347 - 1351, killed 100 million (yes, Virginia, that is *million) *people. So, esp. if you're elderly, take heightened precautions about hygiene and restrict contact with groups as much as possible. Just makes sense.


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## Phil Istine (Mar 13, 2020)

clark said:


> My doctor told me this morning that if you're over 80 and you contract this virus, regardless of the modern health care standards and modernity of your country, the odds are about 95% that it's going to kill you.



Hi Clark.  I'm wondering if there was a misunderstanding between yourself and your doctor.  The figure I read the other day was 15 or possibly 20 per cent death rate for the over 80s with this infection.  That's still not great but a hell of a lot better than 95%.

I saw that figure on the BBC website, and found similar on this one as well.


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## Foxee (Mar 13, 2020)

clark said:


> And watch the news.


Wonderful idea if you want to be terrified and/or depressed all the time.


> Wash your hands with soap and water--*never with the gel  *hand cleaner stuff you see everywhere.


Why? I really dislike hand sanitizer but it has alcohol in it. If a coronavirus zombie sneaks up and licks me at the grocery store you will see me bust open the hand sanitizer station at the entrance and take a bath in the stuff. It's still better than nothing if that's what you've got at the moment.


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## Irwin (Mar 13, 2020)

It seems to me that if you wore any kind of face mask, you'd be better off than without, since air flow is going to take the path of least resistance, which would be around the mask rather than through it. Some might still get through, but most would go around.

And if you have the virus and wear a face mask, if you cough or sneeze, the air coming out of your mouth is going to be slowed down dramatically by the mask, even if it's just a dust mask.

Everyone in China's cities pretty much is wearing a face mask, and that could be why the spread of the virus is slowing. Those aren't N95 respirators; they're just cheap face masks.


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## SueC (Mar 13, 2020)

Irwin said:


> It seems to me that if you wore any kind of face mask, you'd be better off than without, since air flow is going to take the path of least resistance, which would be around the mask rather than through it. Some might still get through, but most would go around.
> 
> And if you have the virus and wear a face mask, if you cough or sneeze, the air coming out of your mouth is going to be slowed down dramatically by the mask, even if it's just a dust mask.
> 
> Everyone in China's cities pretty much is wearing a face mask, and that could be why the spread of the virus is slowing. Those aren't N95 respirators; they're just cheap face masks.



And they tell you to keep your hands away from your face, your mouth. The mask would certain help with that.


----------



## Biro (Mar 13, 2020)

Foxee said:


> Wonderful idea if you want to be terrified and/or depressed all the time.
> 
> Why? I really dislike hand sanitizer but it has alcohol in it. If a coronavirus zombie sneaks up and licks me at the grocery store you will see me bust open the hand sanitizer station at the entrance and take a bath in the stuff. It's still better than nothing if that's what you've got at the moment.



Just to terrify or depress you even more.  Shopping trolley's and baskets are disgusting.  Anybody who coughs into their hand contaminates the trolley/basket.  Then Foxee comes along picks same trolley and gets virused.  Not to mention the slaves who stock the shelves.  Then the badly paid checkout lady and the heavily infected card machine. Then back to the Trolley again which you push out to your shiney clean car and you accidentally transfer the plague to your door handles and steering wheel and controls.  By the time you are home, a real infected virus Zombie you will be.

I was in supermarket last night and the checkout lady had no gloves and was handling cash, cards and loyalty cards from hundreds of shoppers. 

On a serious point.  I have seen a man picking his nose on the hot food counter and a woman at same licking her fingers to open the plastic bags to put the food in.  She was actually serving me at the time and was really confused when I said forget it and walked away.  Before this virus though.

My point is.......you just dont know.


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## KenTR (Mar 14, 2020)

Joke for people in New York: The CDC announced that while face masks are ineffective at keeping you safe from the virus, scientists have discovered that you can achieve 100% protection by using plastic bags.

*waits for laughter to subside*

Thank you. I'm here all week.


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## Irwin (Mar 14, 2020)

KenTR said:


> Joke for people in New York: The CDC announced that while face masks are ineffective at keeping you safe from the virus, scientists have discovered that you can achieve 100% protection by using plastic bags.
> 
> *waits for laughter to subside*
> 
> Thank you. I'm here all week.



They've also discovered that if you drink bleach, you'll be cured of the virus.


----------



## Theglasshouse (Mar 14, 2020)

Don't talk to people who are sick. Drops fall when you are talking invisibly even without sneezing or coughing. Avoid buses, cars, with people with the virus.  Run and get away from them by avoiding them altogether. You can not be at an arm's length or in front of a person who has the virus and who is speaking with you. Covering your eyes with googles is helpful if you don't want the plastic suit to wear or the mask. Lots of people who have no signs or symptons of coughing or sneezing can infect a person just being in contact with them it was said by a doctor I overheard on a cellphone.


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## Phil Istine (Mar 15, 2020)

My particular reality is that I have no savings and I was living hand-to-mouth anyway in a month-to-month struggle.  As this escalates my income will likely plummet, that's if I'll even be allowed out after a particular point is reached.  I'll likely be on close to nil income at some point.  Mortgage and bills won't be paid. The vehicle lease won't be paid, so my means to earn a living will probably be taken away. The next time someone judges a guy on the streets, remember that not everyone is there due to self abuse.
I was in the process of selling my flat in order to become debt free or close to it ,and was looking forward to it in a bizarre way, but I can't see anyone buying now and I can foresee prices crashing anyway.
I'm fucked.
There will likely be a point where my internet access is from the local library - if it's open and if they let a smelly dosser from the streets in.
Getting killed by some virus doesn't feel too unattractive right now.  That's not a hint at feeling suicidal, so don't misinterpret it please, but my life could be changing dramatically over the next few months.


----------



## luckyscars (Mar 15, 2020)

clark said:


> My doctor told me this morning that if you're over 80 and you contract this virus, regardless of the modern health care standards and modernity of your country, the odds are about 95% that it's going to kill you. It's that virulent and that 'efficient' at its work. Her advice to us older folks? Stay home. Period. And watch the news. Wash your hands with soap and water--*never with the gel  *hand cleaner stuff you see everywhere.* Phone *your doctor about any other routine health issues, rather than visit the office. If you are in this elderly group and you permit your family dog or cat to lick your face (so cute!) . . .stop that!! The Bubonic Plague in Eurasia and Europe, 1347 - 1351, killed 100 million (yes, Virginia, that is *million) *people. So, esp. if you're elderly, take heightened precautions about hygiene and restrict contact with groups as much as possible. Just makes sense.



Your Doctor is on drugs, or you are. 

It's not a 95% death rate for the eighty plus. It's 15%. Keep in mind most of that data is based on China, which is hardly a modern country in regard to healthcare access for most people. 

Gel hand cleaner (sanitizer) isn't as good as proper use of soap and water, but it's a solid alternative when those are not conveniently available -- which is the only time most people use it. Saying 'never use hand sanitizer' makes no sense. Use it when out and about and wash your hands the rest of the time. 

There is no evidence that dogs or cats can spread it. And certainly no evidence it would be from them licking your face. Although animals licking anyway is gross.

There are no useful numbers for how many people bubonic plague killed. Estimates range from 25 million to 200 million, most in the 50 million average. In any case, bubonic plague is a bacterial infection, so it's an entirely different thing to a virus, with very different infection rates, causes, treatments, etc. Worrying about a modern virus because of a Medieval disease doesn't make much sense IMO.


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## luckyscars (Mar 15, 2020)

Phil Istine said:


> My particular reality is that I have no savings and I was living hand-to-mouth anyway in a month-to-month struggle.  As this escalates my income will likely plummet, that's if I'll even be allowed out after a particular point is reached.  I'll likely be on close to nil income at some point.  Mortgage and bills won't be paid. The vehicle lease won't be paid, so my means to earn a living will probably be taken away. The next time someone judges a guy on the streets, remember that not everyone is there due to self abuse.
> I was in the process of selling my flat in order to become debt free or close to it ,and was looking forward to it in a bizarre way, but I can't see anyone buying now and I can foresee prices crashing anyway.
> I'm fucked.
> There will likely be a point where my internet access is from the local library - if it's open and if they let a smelly dosser from the streets in.
> Getting killed by some virus doesn't feel too unattractive right now.  That's not a hint at feeling suicidal, so don't misinterpret it please, but my life could be changing dramatically over the next few months.



I'm so sorry to hear this, Phil. 

My concern with coronavirus is 100% the economy, right now. That is, I think the virus itself is far less dangerous than humanity's reaction to it. The fact nobody is even talking about this stuff is crazy. There's no way closing down all the restaurants, stores, bars, hotels, whatever isn't going to have some terrible long term consequences. I'm not talking about the stock market (though for most American's that's a big deal) but the simple fact that many/most small businesses and self-employed individuals don't have the cash reserves to simply close up shop for two months. My father-in-law's business is 100% based on retailers making money to pay him and he's shitting bricks. 

I'm tempted to say I'll pray for you, but if there is a god this is His fault. So, fuck the asshole.


----------



## Phil Istine (Mar 15, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> I'm so sorry to hear this, Phil.
> 
> My concern with coronavirus is 100% the economy, right now. That is, I think the virus itself is far less dangerous than humanity's reaction to it. The fact nobody is even talking about this stuff is crazy. There's no way closing down all the restaurants, stores, bars, hotels, whatever isn't going to have some terrible long term consequences. I'm not talking about the stock market (though for most American's that's a big deal) but the simple fact that many/most small businesses and self-employed individuals don't have the cash reserves to simply close up shop for two months. My father-in-law's business is 100% based on retailers making money to pay him and he's shitting bricks.
> 
> I'm tempted to say I'll pray for you, but if there is a god this is His fault. So, fuck the asshole.



As someone who had the grave misfortune to be raised a Jehovah's Witness and has been an atheist for many years, I don't believe in God - not even an arsehole of a God.  However, I'm acutely aware that that my early conditioning can occasionally turn severe difficulties into an Armageddon syndrome.

The current reactions by many governments could easily trigger another Great Depression.

If I'm allowed out to work over the coming months, if I'm still earning enough I may have to resort to mortgage and essential bills only - bollocks to the debts.


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## Biro (Mar 15, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> Your Doctor is on drugs, or you are.
> 
> It's not a 95% death rate for the eighty plus. It's 15%. Keep in mind most of that data is based on China, which is hardly a modern country in regard to healthcare access for most people.
> 
> ...



All very true except for animals licking you.  I have never caught anything from dogs.  Whereas people have given me loads of ailments and definitely would never let another human lick my face or hands.

Most transmissions of disease from one person to another is by our own habits most of them disgusting.

When I was a kid we were told to wash our hands after using the toilet .....relentlessly.  Before we eat or prepare food.  Wash all food.  Do not share clothes.  Do not put things in your mouth because you do not know where it has been.  We only ate our own prepared and cooked food.  We used antiseptic soap and the smell of bleach was common.

There was good reason for all those things because people had learned from what had made them ill and killed them before.   'Cleanliness is next to Godliness' was one saying.

Everybody going around hugging and kissing each other because its the trendy thing to do in the past 10-20 years instead of just saying hello or at most shaking hands. (you can wash your hands).


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## luckyscars (Mar 15, 2020)

Biro said:


> All very true except for animals licking you.  I have never caught anything from dogs.  Whereas people have given me loads of ailments and definitely would never let another human lick my face or hands.



Then you're on the same drugs as Clark and his Doctor, Biro. 

Human beings are by far the cleanest of any common mammal in terms of oral bacteria. Science shows dog saliva as being a common means of human transmission for E.Coli, Salmonella, and a bunch of other parasites due to their consumption of feces. Cats don't eat so much shit, but have their own parasites -- cat scratch fever is a famous example.

Nope, it's gross. Unless your dog or cat stays indoors all day, refrains from licking their bottoms and balls, and cleans their teeth more often than you, you probably shouldn't be getting busy with them.


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## Biro (Mar 15, 2020)

Phil Istine said:


> As someone who had the grave misfortune to be raised a Jehovah's Witness and has been an atheist for many years, I don't believe in God - not even an arsehole of a God.  However, I'm acutely aware that that my early conditioning can occasionally turn severe difficulties into an Armageddon syndrome.
> 
> The current reactions by many governments could easily trigger another Great Depression.
> 
> If I'm allowed out to work over the coming months, if I'm still earning enough I may have to resort to mortgage and essential bills only - bollocks to the debts.




Hang on in there Phil.  You wont be the only one and they wont be letting people starve or sleep on the streets en-mass.  (Wouldn't get them re-elected).  If it gets that bad there will be some write off of the Ponzi banking scheme we live in.  So it may actually help in away people like yourself of which there will be many.


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## Biro (Mar 15, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> Then you're on the same drugs as Clark and his Doctor, Biro.
> 
> Human beings are by far the cleanest of any common mammal in terms of oral bacteria. Science shows dog saliva as being a common means of human transmission for E.Coli, Salmonella, and a bunch of other parasites due to their consumption of feces. Cats don't eat so much shit, but have their own parasites -- cat scratch fever is a famous example.
> 
> Unless your dog or cat stays indoors all day and cleans their teeth more often than you, you probably shouldn't be getting busy with them.



Well I am really high LS.  But you forgot to tell me what humans saliva and other bodily fluids contain?  By the way a relation of mine caught worms from another human after eating a shop sandwich.  So don't forget the parasites as well.

Over the years working on a farm, animals are treated for parasites regularly.  They have to be otherwise they are no good.  How often are people treated?


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## luckyscars (Mar 15, 2020)

Biro said:


> You wont be the only one and they wont be letting people starve or sleep on the streets en-mass.  (Wouldn't get them re-elected).



Tell that to the people who lived through the Depression.


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## luckyscars (Mar 15, 2020)

Biro said:


> But you forgot to tell me what humans saliva and other bodily fluids contain? By the way a relation of mine caught worms from another human after eating a shop sandwich. So don't forget the parasites as well.



Lots and lots, but also we are immune to a lot of them, either naturally or from vaccination. Also, most of us have good sanitation.  

If your relation caught worms from eating a shop sandwich, it most likely was from what was in the sandwich or because the person did not wash their hands after touching their bum. Either way, I believe most people wash their hands more frequently than most dogs do. You may disagree.



> Over the years working on a farm, animals are treated for parasites regularly. They have to be otherwise they are no good. How often are people treated?



Dogs and cats don't live on farms.


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## Biro (Mar 15, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> Then you're on the same drugs as Clark and his Doctor, Biro.
> 
> Human beings are by far the cleanest of any common mammal in terms of oral bacteria. Science shows dog saliva as being a common means of human transmission for E.Coli, Salmonella, and a bunch of other parasites due to their consumption of feces. Cats don't eat so much shit, but have their own parasites



Animals sometimes eat their own sh*te for a reason.  Possibly their food is not up to standard.

But leaving dogs and cats alone.  Have you any idea what the animals and fish we eat are infected with/carrying?  But you still eat them.

Most fish are heavily infected with worms in their flesh.  But you eat them and sometimes raw.

Meat is sometimes eaten raw or not properly cooked...(medium rare/rare cooked steak). You eat various parts of their flesh which could have parasites or even diseases.


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## Biro (Mar 15, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> Lots and lots, but also we are immune to a lot of them, either naturally or from vaccination. Also, most of us have good sanitation.
> 
> If your relation caught worms from eating a shop sandwich, it most likely was from what was in the sandwich or because the person did not wash their hands after touching their bum. Either way, I believe most people wash their hands more frequently than most dogs do. You may disagree.
> 
> ...



No I do agree.  As I said earlier we were told to wash our hands and do not put them in our mouths and you are correct about the sandwich (human to human).

Regards people.  Nearly all the diseases we catch are from other people and not from animals.  In fact very few are from animals.

Lots of dogs and cats live on farms.  They are an important part of a farm.


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## Irwin (Mar 15, 2020)

Phil Istine said:


> My particular reality is that I have no savings and I was living hand-to-mouth anyway in a month-to-month struggle.  As this escalates my income will likely plummet, that's if I'll even be allowed out after a particular point is reached.  I'll likely be on close to nil income at some point.  Mortgage and bills won't be paid. The vehicle lease won't be paid, so my means to earn a living will probably be taken away. The next time someone judges a guy on the streets, remember that not everyone is there due to self abuse.
> I was in the process of selling my flat in order to become debt free or close to it ,and was looking forward to it in a bizarre way, but I can't see anyone buying now and I can foresee prices crashing anyway.
> I'm fucked.
> There will likely be a point where my internet access is from the local library - if it's open and if they let a smelly dosser from the streets in.
> Getting killed by some virus doesn't feel too unattractive right now.  That's not a hint at feeling suicidal, so don't misinterpret it please, but my life could be changing dramatically over the next few months.



It seems likely that will be the case for a lot of people--especially those whose livelihood relies on tourism. Here in Colorado, the governor ordered all the ski resorts to close, which means all the workers involved are out of work. People aren't going to movie theaters or sporting events. People aren't eating at restaurants, so waiters and waitresses are adversely affected, as well as the business owners.

It is precisely this type of situation where an economic safety net is necessary, yet those at the top, here in the U.S. are actually trying to cut food stamps for those in need when this is a time when they're needed the most! Their "solution" is more tax cuts.

Good luck to you, Phil. I hope you manage to get through this okay.


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## Foxee (Mar 15, 2020)

For Phil and anyone else in similar straits.

Living close to the financial razor's edge is a difficult place to be at the best of times and frightening in the worst of times. Don't give up or give in to fear. Don't be afraid or reluctant to take help when you really need it. I look back on some situations and am amazed that my family and I are still here.

Don't give up.

I also wanted to share this, Italians in lockdown, singing together from their windows


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## bdcharles (Mar 16, 2020)

Phil Istine said:


> My particular reality is that I have no savings and I was living hand-to-mouth anyway in a month-to-month struggle.  As this escalates my income will likely plummet, that's if I'll even be allowed out after a particular point is reached.  I'll likely be on close to nil income at some point.  Mortgage and bills won't be paid. The vehicle lease won't be paid, so my means to earn a living will probably be taken away. The next time someone judges a guy on the streets, remember that not everyone is there due to self abuse.
> I was in the process of selling my flat in order to become debt free or close to it ,and was looking forward to it in a bizarre way, but I can't see anyone buying now and I can foresee prices crashing anyway.
> I'm fucked.
> There will likely be a point where my internet access is from the local library - if it's open and if they let a smelly dosser from the streets in.
> Getting killed by some virus doesn't feel too unattractive right now.  That's not a hint at feeling suicidal, so don't misinterpret it please, but my life could be changing dramatically over the next few months.



Set up a crowdfunding / patreon / gofundme type site. A friend of a friend set one up a couple of years ago - £100K, life-saving surgery - and we all tweeted it and whatnot with about 3 months to go, and it was tight but it exceeded the requested amount and the woman is still alive. Talk to your bank about waiving your mortgage as I heard some of them are doing that for the duration of any lockdown. Talk to whoever your lenders are - car, house - and see about an extension of time and a reduction of rates. If it comes to it, look into housing co-ops or just moving in with someone you know for a bit. We're not about to let you starve, man.


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## luckyscars (Mar 16, 2020)

bdcharles said:


> Talk to your bank about waiving your mortgage as I heard some of them are doing that for the duration of any lockdown. Talk to whoever your lenders are - car, house - and see about an extension of time and a reduction of rates.



As an American citizen & resident, hearing these suggestions made me retch with laughter.


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## bdcharles (Mar 16, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> As an American citizen & resident, hearing these suggestions made me retch with laughter.



I don't know how it is in the US but in the UK all this stuff - money lending - is a battle of wills at the end of the day, with two humans at the end of a transaction. Ultimately these people would rather get their money late than not at all, and without additional expense (and negative press) and if they know that you know that you have a handful of rights despite what they wish you to believe, they will capitulate to a point.


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## Foxee (Mar 16, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> As an American citizen & resident, hearing these suggestions made me retch with laughter.


Also as an American I would say that calling your lender and saying, "Okay, this is the situation" is way better than silence and non-payment. They want their money and they'll try to find ways to help you to defer things but if you say nothing you're likely to get exactly what cynicism says that you will.


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## Amnesiac (Mar 16, 2020)

Interesting that in Germany and Italy, people in lockdown are buying and reading my stories. LOL


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## luckyscars (Mar 16, 2020)

Foxee said:


> Also as an American I would say that calling your lender and saying, "Okay, this is the situation" is way better than silence and non-payment. They want their money and they'll try to find ways to help you to defer things but if you say nothing you're likely to get exactly what cynicism says that you will.



They won't try to 'help you', that's the wrong word. Lenders don't help, they mitigate risk. That's all they do, all they care about. I don't take 'Hail, Corporate!' 

The probability of any major financial institutions in the US helping anybody in any real sense is zero. The only thing holding them back is future PR problems and the government. The U.S government has a long, esteemed track record of not giving a fig about the poor and are massively in these institutions pockets. It would have to be extremely bad for them to step in, and it isn't. Yet. 

As far as the negative PR that comes with ruining people over things they can do nothing about? Well, if it's a small minority of people, there's no negative PR impact (proof of this: it's not like we give a shit about the millions who _already _lose their homes because they can't afford to pay) and if it's everybody, there's even less negative PR, because 'everybody is doing it'. If all the banks are doing the same thing (because they have to, to sustain their business model) there is no face to lose. Like when all the banks screwed the economy in '08. If they're all bad, they're all good.

But sure, I bet they'll put you on a payment plan. Won't be interest free, obviously. Banks don't 'want their money', they want you in debt. They_ love _payment plans. They love _deferring._ The entire US financial system runs off bonded slavery. Hopefully for Phil's sake that's not the case in the UK, but I wouldn't bet on it.


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## KenTR (Mar 16, 2020)

*While the banks, credit card companies and utilities may be forced to lighten up for now, once this is all over they will pounce on everybody with a vengeance because siphoning more than their fair share from our pockets is how they fill their swimming pools. 

*I've been watching videos of people sticking their heads out of their windows and screaming at people on the streets to "go the fuk home!!!", to which the people on the street reply "Shut the fuk up!!!". Back and forth it goes, spittle flying everywhere. Our fumbling gov't officials and the goddamn alarmist media are only fueling panic. Too large a swath of the population are stupid assholes on a good day, and this whole situation is bringing out the worst in everyone. I'm sure there's plenty of good will to be found quarantined behind closed doors, but at the same time, some families and other cohabitants who generally hate each other are now forced to sit and stew together. Sooner or later, violence will begin begin to erupt. I've already been hearing more ambulance and police sirens than usual. It's really starting to look like a zombie apocalypse out there, and while I haven't spotted any of the undead, I did just see a giant COVID-19 virus thingee rolling down the street taking out everything in its path. 

*Just watched a tortuous news segment about social distancing and the stress it will eventually cause. One suggestion was to keep in touch. They gave three suggestions: make calls, use Face Time, or _write letters._ Write letters? Since when did email become forbidden? I don't have a phone, so when people tell me to text them, I tell them I can't, but will email them. "Oh, I don't do emails.." is an all too frequent response. I never thought I'd see a situation where my reclusiveness would be an advantage. I've totally got this. I've been social distancing since 1989.

*Finally, no need to hoard toilet paper:
[video=youtube;V5U2yhrsXv8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5U2yhrsXv8[/video]


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## Foxee (Mar 16, 2020)

Wow, now that was a parsing of my comments that really divorced meaning from context. I never said lenders or businesses are altruistic about 'helping', come on now.

However, realism is that when we enter into a business agreement, either on the selling (hey, writers, if you sell your work you'll be the business wanting the money) or the borrowing/using end it's contractual. It's not totally unreasonable to expect that the person running the business wants some kind of arrangement. That said if you're hard up about what gets paid, definitely paying to keep the lights on and the house or apartment in your name has to take precedence over your credit cards.

There seems to be a lot of cynicism about business. If you don't like people knocking down your door for the money, stop playing around with debt. There are other options.


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## luckyscars (Mar 16, 2020)

Foxee said:


> However, realism is that when we enter into a business agreement, either on the selling (hey, writers, if you sell your work you'll be the business wanting the money) or the borrowing/using end it's contractual. It's not totally unreasonable to expect that the person running the business wants some kind of arrangement. That said if you're hard up about what gets paid, definitely paying to keep the lights on and the house or apartment in your name has to take precedence over your credit cards.



The problem is 'some kind of arrangement' invariably serves to enrich the lender in the long term far more than it benefits the debtor. Should financial institutions be profiting from a pandemic?



> If you don't like people knocking down your door for the money, stop playing around with debt. There are other options.



Ah yeah, the good old Republican 'why can't people just take responsibility for their choices' shtick. So embedded in the U.S psyche it should be in our Pledge of Allegiance.

No, you're right. Totally. The self-employed, small-business people, not to mention all those people going bankrupt because of uncovered medical bills, sure should stop _playing around_ with debt. These people have other options, damn it.

 Such a shame they're too selfish or stupid to take them. Such a shame.


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## Foxee (Mar 16, 2020)

*palms up* You win. Don't contact anyone, sit there and be bitter, get what you get. I mean...okay. I'm just trying to say don't neglect to try.


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## Firemajic (Mar 16, 2020)

I am not afraid of catching the virus, or of running out of toilet paper or bread.... I am afraid of the people I saw today... The men standing in line at our local farm store, purchasing shot guns and ammunition ....

Who... or what or why... who do they think they may need to gun down? Why would they need to point a gun at someone ... 

Those ideologies and radical 'end of the world" thought processes terrify me...

The other thing that makes me more sad than afraid, is the realization of how fragile we all really are...


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## velo (Mar 16, 2020)

***SUPERVISOR NOTE***

The current society-level changes we are undergoing have everyone on edge.  We get it and we feel it, too.  But bickering and arguing will not help anyone...and they are still against the rules.  

Please keep your responses civil.  Sarcasm can be a very useful tool in rhetoric but only when wielded like a rapier, with skill and precision.  When used as a cudgel is loses its power and simply becomes rude and/or insulting.  This is addressed to everyone in this thread.  

From here on out staff will be monitoring this thread and taking necessary action accordingly.  This counts as a formal warning to everyone.  

Also, stay home and stay safe if you can.


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## Amnesiac (Mar 16, 2020)

Evidently, moonshine kills the corona virus. There's not a single case reported in West Virginia. Everyone else is freaking out. West Virginia's like, "Hold my Mason jar."


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## velo (Mar 16, 2020)

Firemajic said:


> Those ideologies and radical 'end of the world" thought processes terrify me...
> 
> The other thing that makes me more sad than afraid, is the realization of how fragile we all really are...



But can't you see how your second (quoted) point gives rise to the mindset in your first?  The more complex a society is the more fragile it is...it becomes an immense Jenga tower with only a few blocks at the very base of it.  Societal collapse is a real possibility, though whether or not the economic devastation (which may be far worse than the health-related suffering) will rise to that point we still don't know.  If it does happen, those dudes with a lot of ammo will find themselves in a position of power.  Like it or not, that's how the world will work for a while should it all go belly-up.


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## Firemajic (Mar 16, 2020)

velo said:


> But can't you see how your second (quoted) point gives rise to the mindset in your first?  The more complex a society is the more fragile it is...it becomes an immense Jenga tower with only a few blocks at the very base of it.  Societal collapse is a real possibility, though whether or not the economic devastation (which may be far worse than the health-related suffering) will rise to that point we still don't know.  If it does happen, those dudes with a lot of ammo will find themselves in a position of power.  Like it or not, that's how the world will work for a while should it all go belly-up.



Yes, I do understand... but one would hope we would have learned from history, and maybe evolved more in our problem solving skills....


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## Firemajic (Mar 16, 2020)

Double post...


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## velo (Mar 16, 2020)

We're less than 4% of our DNA from throwing our own poo in a zoo



Firemajic said:


> Yes, I do understand... but one would hope we
> would have learned from history, and maybe evolved more in our problem solving skills....


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## Amnesiac (Mar 16, 2020)

Also, people who kiss their dogs, knowing full well that their dogs lick their own ass and balls, are in a real panic to buy hand sanitizer. Really, you'd think they'd be after the mouthwash, but _I''m_ the asshole for pointing that out. 

Also, all of this antibacterial crap that people are buying: A *bacteria* is not a *VIRUS. *A decent, even cursory, microbiology class would do miracles. /smh..


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## Ma'am (Mar 16, 2020)

Cat playing tic-tac-toe during coronavirus quarantine

(Scroll to third pic down on left side. To the video that says at the top "how's self quarantine going?")

https://www.dexerto.com/entertainme...tac-toe-during-coronavirus-quarantine-1341848


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## velo (Mar 16, 2020)

Amnesiac said:


> Also, people who kiss their dogs, knowing full well that their dogs lick their own ass and balls, are in a real panic to buy hand sanitizer. Really, you'd think they'd be after the mouthwash, but _I''m_ the asshole for pointing that out.
> 
> Also, all of this antibacterial crap that people are buying: A *bacteria* is not a *VIRUS. *A decent, even cursory, microbiology class would do miracles. /smh..



Literally just back from the store and the shelves are empty of, wait for it...toilet paper. There is a part of me that is hoping this really is the apocalypse so I can watch all these data points from the left side of the intelligence bell curve try and eat their stock of Charmin.


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## SueC (Mar 16, 2020)

Okay now that it's been mentioned - what is the deal with the toilet paper? Went to the store on Sunday morning and saw a completely empty aisle where toilet paper used to be. Little signs hung on empty shelves, saying "limit of two." Someone strolled by with a cart and said there was toilet paper at the end of the aisle. So we went and found some of the stuff that your fingers poke through, even when its not wet. Then a boy came by with a loader full of the expensive, ultra big rolls, extra wide and expensive TP. The type of paper I never buy at $14 a pop! But I bought one - and I wasn't even at the store to get toilet paper! My friend bought two of them, right off the loader. What is wrong with us? I don't even know why everyone is so hyped about toilet paper, but I guess I must have felt like I was missing something, or missed some kind of important government report that said TP was in short supply and would be for the next 100 years. LOL!

I felt like Elaine  (You have to be older to get this)


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## Foxee (Mar 16, 2020)

SueC said:


> What is wrong with us?


Beats me, I didn't think that I was freaking out over TP but when I found that the grocery store had some I still felt like doing a firedance in the endzone. When I brought a package home I was hailed as a conquering hero.

For anyone who wants numbers, a friend linked me to a tracking dashboard that gives info on the virus spread worldwide from Johns Hopkins: COVID-19 Global Cases 

There is a store chain (one that I didn't even know was still around, Woolworth's) who started offering an 'Elderly-only' shopping hour to help seniors get what they need.
ETA: I just saw that Dollar General (the dollar store here that pops up in random places as though to take over the world) is setting aside the first hour after they open for the elderly now.


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## Biro (Mar 16, 2020)

In the 1970's and 80's it was common at all British football matches for the crowd to take toilet rolls to the stadiums and throw them in huge long streamers onto the football pitch.  (I never knew why)

Those video's are all over Youtube and there are people now who apparently salivate when watching them.  Longing for the good old days of 'Loo Roll Porn'.


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## Biro (Mar 16, 2020)

Foxee said:


> Beats me, I didn't think that I was freaking out over TP but when I found that the grocery store had some I still felt like doing a firedance in the endzone. When I brought a package home I was hailed as a conquering hero.



This just shows the complete failure of 'Bidet' marketing.  When people still prefer to wipe instead of wash you just know the message isnt getting across.


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## luckyscars (Mar 16, 2020)

SueC said:


> Okay now that it's been mentioned - what is the deal with the toilet paper?



There was some theory that it was related to TP being a good substitute for Kleenex.

Personally, I think it's nowhere near that rational. I think it's kind of 'stampede syndrome'. Basically, nobody had any idea what to buy -- because we aren't used to this kind of thing -- and were not sure of the symptoms. So a handful of people started loading up on toilet paper. Toilet paper usually comes in very big packages. It is very visible in a grocery cart, a very 'visual' indicator of 'hey I'm stocking up on this stuff!' Somebody with a ton of pasta you may not notice but somebody walking out of a store with twenty big packs of toilet paper looks like a walking iceberg...

...So a few more people started buying it in huge quantities. Not necessarily a lot of people, but it isn't something most grocery stores necessarily have a massive stockpile of in the first place. It's not milk or bread. So, suddenly there are empty shelves.

It then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. People who on the one hand KNOW it's not necessary start to buy it because suddenly it's hard to get hold of. It's scarcity makes it valuable.

Much the same is probably true for how gold and silver became valuable back in ancient times: It was already somewhat useful, somewhat scarce, somewhat valuable...so people started hoarding it more and more, which made it incredibly needed, incredibly scarce, and extremely valuable.


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## Biro (Mar 16, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> There was some theory that it was related to TP being a good substitute for Kleenex.
> 
> Personally, I think it's nowhere near that rational. I think it's kind of 'stampede syndrome'. Basically, nobody had any idea what to buy -- because we aren't used to this kind of thing -- and so a handful of people started loading up on toilet paper. Toilet paper comes in very big packages, is very visible in a grocery cart, is a very 'visual' indicator of 'hey I'm stocking up'. So a few more people started buying it in huge quantities. Not necessarily a lot of people, but it isn't something most grocery stores necessarily have a massive stockpile of. It's not milk or bread.
> 
> ...



About 12 years ago and even before.  There were/are 'Preppers' who made videos for Youtube.  They were talking of the 'Banking crash' and the 'end of oil'.  One item they stocked up with was toilet roll.  This was because in their underground bunker while hiding from the ravaging gangs of people who were roaming the country looking for weapons, food and women.  They of course needed toilet paper.  One of those items you cannot do without in such situations as you need to conserve water. (so they say).  

Perhaps it stems from there?


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## Amnesiac (Mar 18, 2020)

For all of our "civilization" and "progress," humankind really hasn't progressed beyond the level of a common beast, for the most part. We'll cooperate with each other if it's to our own benefit, and we'll collectively respond to peer pressure, but our altruism and all of the other high-flung philosophical crap just collapses when people don't know where their next meal or paycheck is coming from.


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## Foxee (Mar 18, 2020)

Amnesiac said:


> For all of our "civilization" and "progress," humankind really hasn't progressed beyond the level of a common beast, for the most part. We'll cooperate with each other if it's to our own benefit, and we'll collectively respond to peer pressure, but our altruism and all of the other high-flung philosophical crap just collapses when people don't know where their next meal or paycheck is coming from.


Hey, take a breath. Have a cookie. Go for a jog. All is not lost. Yeah, there's some slime in the milk of human kindness sometimes and it's best not to trust people indiscriminately. But for all of that there are still people pushing against that, doing things that benefit others, not for gain.

Humans are tuned to the channel of self, it's true. But some overcome that.

And the sun's out (here anyway). Free irradiation. Have you had the bike out?


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## Amnesiac (Mar 18, 2020)

Foxee, you're right: I'm going for a ride.


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## Foxee (Mar 18, 2020)

Amnesiac said:


> Foxee, you're right: I'm going for a ride.


I'd join you but I dunno how I'd stay six feet away on the same bike. Social distancing is the pits!


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## Amnesiac (Mar 18, 2020)

Okay: Time for some GOOD news!

1. China has closed down its last corona virus hospital. Not enough new cases to support them.

2. Doctors in India have been successful in treating corona virus.

3. Researchers of the Erasmus Medical Center claim to have found an antibody against corona virus.

4. A 103-year old Chinese grandmother has made a full recovery after being treated for 6 days in Wuhan, China

5. Apple reopens all 42 stores in China

6. Cleveland Clinic developed a Covid-19 test that gives results in hours; not days.

7. South Korea reports that numbers of new cases are declining.

8. Italy is hard hit, experts say, only because they have the oldest population in Europe.

9. Scientists in Israel likely to announce the development of a corona virus vaccine

10. 3 Maryland corona virus patients are fully recovered and have returned to everyday life.

11. A network of Canadian scientists are making excellent progress in Covid-19 research.

12. Tulsa County's first positive Covid-19 case has recovered. This individual has had two negative tests, which is the indicator of recovery.

13. All seven patients who were being treated at Safdarjung hospital in New Delhi have recovered.


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## andrewclunn (Mar 18, 2020)

Amnesiac said:


> For all of our "civilization" and "progress," humankind really hasn't progressed beyond the level of a common beast, for the most part. We'll cooperate with each other if it's to our own benefit, and we'll collectively respond to peer pressure, but our altruism and all of the other high-flung philosophical crap just collapses when people don't know where their next meal or paycheck is coming from.



Warning, long winded rant to follow:

Yep.  Turns out all our "greater good" stuff was really just an extension of tribalism.  For a very brief period of time we thought we could come to see everyone as being on the same team, and very quickly we realized that those who don't will use in-group out-group approaches to beat down any group foolish enough to try and rise about their tribal inclinations.  Basically, the sad truth is that we need to not be foolish enough to regard the "other" as being no different from our close kin, as they will never extend the same kindness back.  Be it racial, religious, regional, or cultural, we need to be honest with ourselves that the "greater good" is like every other question about good and bad.  It always implicitly asks "good or bad for whom, or for what?"  Even the religion of Christianity, that in part tells people to love their neighbors as themselves, and extend the notion of neighborhood to the stranger, coupled with forgiveness for the once enemy, does so with the express intention of bringing those strangers and former foes into the fold.  And don't get me started on the studies that show that conversion based faiths tend to be more parasitic to their believers than progeny based (where the majority of new believers are born to existing believers rather than converted from the rest of the population).  Turns out that our philosophical or memetic identities and strategies sit just above our biology as emergent strategies for advancement.  Now this isn't to say that morality is subjective, as there are clearly certain strategies which are worse than others in all regards, but if someone is telling you that morals and ethics exist in some static universal form at the same level or higher than physical laws, unchanging and not adapting to the environment, then they're lying (either knowingly or not).  Disillusionment with this view of morality is tough I know, but it's an important step that one realize why 90%+ of philosophy is crap in order to come to understand those aspects of it that are not.

End long rant.


EDIT - typo fixes


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## Biro (Mar 18, 2020)

andrewclunn said:


> Warning, long winded rant to follow:
> 
> Yep.  Turns out all our "greater good" stuff was really just an extension of tribalism.  For a very brief period of time we thought we could come to see everyone as being on the same team, and very quickly we realized that those who don't will use in-group out-group approaches to beat down any group foolish enough to try and rise about their tribal inclinations.  Basically, the sad truth is that we need to not be foolish enough to regard the "other" as being no different from our close kin, as they will never extend the same kindness back.  Be it racial, religious, regional, or cultural, we need to be honest with ourselves that the "greater good" is like every other question about good and bad.  It always implicitly ass "good or bad for whom, or for what?"  Even the religion of Christianity, that in part tells people to love their neighbors and themselves, and extend the notion of neighborhood to the stranger, coupled with forgiveness for the once enemy, does so with the express intention of bringing those strangers and former foes into the fold.  And don't get me started in the studies that show that conversion based faiths tend to be more parasitic to their believers than progeny based (where the majority of new believers are born to existing believers rather than converted from the rest of the population).  Turns out that our philosophical or memetic identities and strategies sit just above our biology as emergent strategies for advancement.  Now this isn't to say that morality is subjective, as there are clearly certain strategies which are worse than others in all regards, but if someone is telling you that morals and ethics exist in some static universal form at the same level or higher than physical laws, unchanging or adapting to the environment, then they're lying (either knowingly or not).  Disillusionment with this view of morality is tough I know, but it's an important step that one realize why 90%+ of philosophy is crap in order to come to understand those aspects of it that are not.
> 
> End long rant.



To be honest I am sick to death of people telling me how I must think about other people.  I know who I like and who I don't.  My instincts tell me and they are rarely wrong.


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## escorial (Mar 18, 2020)

It's hear,it's not going away.....we have never beat the flu...I use to phone work an said i got the flu but when I got it I can remember thinking...who ever believed I had the flu the weekend and turned up Tuesday ok for work...why does evolution kill humans when cells die inside us 
 to..cancer...flu..ECT...because their greedy like humans


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## PiP (Mar 18, 2020)

Portugal has now declared a state of emergency ...


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## escorial (Mar 18, 2020)

Financial or biological...I reckon the first could kill more


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## KenTR (Mar 18, 2020)

Well well well.....who's licking socialism's balls _now_, HMMMMM?


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## escorial (Mar 18, 2020)

China can build a fully functional hospital in 5 days...can your economy


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## Amnesiac (Mar 18, 2020)

The trouble is, it's all "Made in China." LOL


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## escorial (Mar 18, 2020)

Capitalism will sell the rope to hang itself but Communism has shown it can adapt


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## escorial (Mar 18, 2020)

I remember the gay plauge in the 80's an living in London at the time it was scary...I wasn't a puff but it felt like if I should get lucky a sponkie was the way to go. .which I did and it worked out in the end(no comment)...for me


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## Amnesiac (Mar 18, 2020)

escorial said:


> Capitalism will sell the rope to hang itself but Communism has shown it can adapt



Hahahaha.... Yes. it certainly can: Into Socialism, or a hybrid of Capitalism/Communism/Socialism. Every other form of Communism has collapsed. The only holdout is North Korea, and that's just a matter of time.


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## escorial (Mar 18, 2020)

I've never been to a communist country but I might get to heaven on a middle aged book


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## SueC (Mar 18, 2020)

PiP said:


> Portugal has now declared a state of emergency ...



I looked for something to respond to this, but "like" just didn't seem right. I'm sorry to hear this, Carole. Such a frightening time, and nowhere to turn. ((((Carole))))) <---- hugging, like in the old chatroom days.  I think we should add "Hug" to our list of responses at the  bottom of a post.


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## escorial (Mar 18, 2020)

Maybe  alive or dead likish


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## Bloggsworth (Mar 19, 2020)

escorial said:


> China can build a fully functional hospital in 5 days...can your economy



When you can empty your jails and force labour at gunpoint, it is amazing how fast things can be done - Totalitarian states have access to ultra vires methodology...


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## Bloggsworth (Mar 19, 2020)

escorial said:


> Capitalism will sell the rope to hang itself but Communism has shown it can adapt



No - Communism has shown it will hang someone else in order to adapt...


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## SueC (Mar 19, 2020)

So how is everyone doing? Our membership goes all over the world. What is the corona-virus like in your place?

I live in Kansas, middle of the United States. This morning I heard of the first virus in my city being found. I need to go to the grocery store for bread, but I'm a little nervous - all that touching; the cart, the keypad to pay, etc. My apartment building is quiet; nothing going on. No one is visiting and the common areas are closed. My grandchildren are off of school for the rest of the school year, and I can't take them anywhere. No movies, no shopping, nothing. I will go over to their house to do my laundry next Wednesday, so I will get to see them a little. I want to buy some yarn for a big project to keep me busy, but I may have to do that online. I will be working on my WIP and hopefully make good strides; I'm really ready to finish this up. The weather is gloomy and stormy today. All I see on TV is news and updates on the virus. I may get sloppy and stop wearing a bra. LOL! 

How are you all doing?


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## KenTR (Mar 19, 2020)

It would appear that I am out of work. Luckily, I am technically disabled (twirls finger around temple) so I will keep my hands washed and clean, palms up. Thank God for my SS benefits. 

Our do-nothing fake Mayor is considering a "shelter in place" order, which sounds to me a little like marshall law, but with cops. Looks like I will finally have the time I need to write.

My cat has skin allergies, and is having problems. He's got a huge patch of inflamed, hairless skin on the back of his neck. It looks like an open wound. I've been calling him "Zombie Cat". Hoping the vet is open and can fit us in today.  If that order from the un-Mayor goes down, the vet's office will close. A little nervous about that. Why do they always seem to need to go to the vet during blizzards and pandemics?

Last Sunday I was on the train coming home from visiting a friend and there was a bit of an incident. I was sitting there reading when everybody panicked and started rushing away from the far end of the car I was in. Somebody had vomited. The door to the next car was locked, so everyone was crowded together at the other end. Some woman was pounding on the locked door, screaming "Let us out!", which didn't help the situation very much. 

Interesting time to live through. I suspect it's far from over, and I'm hoping I won't eventually have to swap "interesting" for a less savory descriptor. Curious to see how all this will ultimately affect the social/economic/political landscape in the months to come. Americans have an annoying habit of forgetting things and carrying on as usual in favor of the next shiny object on the horizon, but I'm hoping this will be different.


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## Biro (Mar 19, 2020)

KenTR said:


> It would appear that I am out of work. Luckily, I am technically disabled (twirls finger around temple) so I will keep my hands washed and clean, palms up. Thank God for my SS benefits.
> 
> Our do-nothing fake Mayor is considering a "shelter in place" order, which sounds to me a little like marshall law, but with cops. Looks like I will finally have the time I need to write.
> 
> ...



We are all out of work.  We have plenty to do though.  We do 4 hour shifts protecting our pack of toilet rolls from marauding Zombies. We have plenty of time now  for more sex but unfortunate we are married so that idea went out the window.  Suddenly there are lots of jobs that need doing.  Amazing how women find these things but can never remember where they put my stuff.  I haven't bothered wearing a face mask yet but around the house I do wear ear defenders as they do protect my ears from burning.


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## SueC (Mar 19, 2020)

Ok. Enough of the negativity. We are all going through tough times, no matter who you or where you live. When we come out on the other side, what is it you will remember? The quiet? The opportunities within that quiet? How you spent your days, that you may not have a chance to do if a stinking virus hadn't demanded that you just stop?


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## Amnesiac (Mar 19, 2020)

escorial said:


> Maybe  alive or dead likish



Some days, I'm very nearly lifelike!


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## Amnesiac (Mar 19, 2020)

Another thing: Viruses, in general, have a very short lifespan on surfaces. People are using hand sanitizer and disinfecting surfaces like there's no tomorrow, and that's very good. (Especially if we are dealing with bacteria!) An airborne virus, though: That comes from people coughing into their hands and then shaking hands with you, and then, nearly immediately, you touch your face. Airborne: People coughing into the air, breathing, or talking. A mask, while not 100% guaranteed, will help cancel the "big broadcast." Otherwise, if you _do_ end up with the virus, it's like a super flu: Like any virus, antibiotics are not going to help, unless there is a bacterial sinus infection, or bacterial bronchitis. 

Tylenol and Advil, alternating, every three hours for the fever. Tepid baths, if necessary. Get a humidifier and a good expectorant, and cough/spit out as much of that drainage as possible. You do NOT want it sitting in your bronchi and getting the chance to turn into pneumonia. As with any other virus, it takes about two weeks to incubate, and once you start having symptoms, it'll take about two weeks to run its course, whether you treat it or not. Treatment consists, primarily, of staying hydrated. A LOT! And getting the phlegm and drainage out of your throat and sinuses. "This too shall pass."


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## Theglasshouse (Mar 19, 2020)

https://bgr.com/2020/03/15/coronavirus-update-advil-and-ibuprofen-not-advised-to-treat-symptoms/

My family will be using this, but yahoo is contradicting saying ibuprofen is safe and that there is no evidence which is medical speak. Paracetamol or Tylenol is what is recommended. Ibuprofen compromises the immune system weakening it. Because of that it's not recommended. I am not a doctor but that's what two doctors recommended in my family. Even then yahoo advises that you ask a doctor. When I was looking around the internet.


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## Amnesiac (Mar 19, 2020)

Ibuprofen is an anti-inflammatory. It's not going to act the same way as Tylenol or Advil, particularly when used to keep a fever below 103F.


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## KenTR (Mar 19, 2020)

Amnesiac said:


> Ibuprofen is an anti-inflammatory. It's not going to act the same way as Tylenol or Advil, particularly when used to keep a fever below 103F.



Psssst...Advil is ibuprofen.

For the past two days I've seen conflicting information in both the news media and google. Ibuprofen is good/ibuprofen is bad/George Clooney is pregnant/George Clooney not pregnant. The usual. Seems it always takes a while for the truth to come out. Eventually the dust will settle and there will be a reliable consensus. Until then, I will refrain from sending Mr. Clooney my congratulations.


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## Amnesiac (Mar 19, 2020)

Not Advil... Crap, what was I thinking? Anyway, Tylenol is good for fever reduction.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Mar 19, 2020)

SueC said:


> Ok. Enough of the negativity. We are all going through tough times, no matter who you or where you live. When we come out on the other side, what is it you will remember? The quiet? The opportunities within that quiet? How you spent your days, that you may not have a chance to do if a stinking virus hadn't demanded that you just stop?




The book I'm going to write on recipes with toilet paper. :lol:


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## KenTR (Mar 19, 2020)

Forget COVID-19...society as we know it will crumble when millennials start running the world.

[video=youtube;oa4i9Ap6dCg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa4i9Ap6dCg[/video]
Derp.


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## Foxee (Mar 19, 2020)

SueC said:


> So how is everyone doing? Our membership goes all over the world. What is the corona-virus like in your place?
> 
> I live in Kansas, middle of the United States. This morning I heard of the first virus in my city being found. I need to go to the grocery store for bread, but I'm a little nervous - all that touching; the cart, the keypad to pay, etc. My apartment building is quiet; nothing going on. No one is visiting and the common areas are closed. My grandchildren are off of school for the rest of the school year, and I can't take them anywhere. No movies, no shopping, nothing. I will go over to their house to do my laundry next Wednesday, so I will get to see them a little. I want to buy some yarn for a big project to keep me busy, but I may have to do that online. I will be working on my WIP and hopefully make good strides; I'm really ready to finish this up. The weather is gloomy and stormy today. All I see on TV is news and updates on the virus. I may get sloppy and stop wearing a bra. LOL!
> 
> How are you all doing?


I have already hung my bra out the window and set it on fire so that's done.

Well, I lie, I did have to dress like a normal person today and go to work as caregiver for a wheelchair-bound man. His wife is keeping everything sanitized and working from home so there's no panic but I had one of those moments where I mis-swallowed a sip of water, coughed once, and she nearly had kittens.

I've had great plans for yarn but haven't had a chance to dig into my stash and figure out what to do. I was trying to learn knitting before this all started so every now and then I knit a few more rows and once again realize how boring it is compared to crochet. (oooh, I'm gonna get knitter-hate for that one)

Bread, meat, and TP are main things the stores continue to be out of or low on so I currently have sourdough bread dough that I mixed up and started last night in the fridge. I may be able to bake that tonight.

Kids and I are reading a book that's just a little beyond their reading level. We each take turns reading aloud and when they stumble over a word they don't know I write it on a list. Then we go over vocab. I meant to get them going on Khan Academy for math or maybe math games but that's been like getting to my yarn stash. Just hasn't happened. Their school district doesn't at this point seem to know if it's going to try virtual instruction or not. Until then (and even if they do) they can do some mom-work.

Cabin fever seems to be the worst thing we're experiencing at this point. The other day it felt like the world had vanished but not in a good way like I've always wanted it to. Better today.

How's everyone else?


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## Ma'am (Mar 19, 2020)

KenTR said:


> Forget COVID-19...society as we know it will crumble when millennials start running the world.




I hate to say it but I have a millennial kid and I often feel left in the past. They know what is going on right now and how things are done right now. And, of course, hugely enjoy letting their parents know it. :mad2:


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## Foxee (Mar 19, 2020)

Ma'am said:


> I hate to say it but I have a millennial kid and I often feel left in the past. They know what is going on right now and how things are done right now. *And, of course, hugely enjoy letting their parents know it.* :mad2:


That sure is the truth. My son's pretty darned sharp and, for fourteen years old, more together and aware of the larger world than I remember being at fourteen. I've become lazy at figuring out tech stuff now that I can just hand things to him and ask him to figure it out. 

Hate to say it but every generation has its slack-jawed losers. And every generation has those who will save it.


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## SueC (Mar 19, 2020)

Foxee said:


> I've had great plans for yarn but haven't had a chance to dig into my stash and figure out what to do. I was trying to learn knitting before this all started so every now and then I knit a few more rows and once again realize how boring it is compared to crochet. (oooh, I'm gonna get knitter-hate for that one)



I love both skills and often combine the two. Just for fun, here's a picture of a jumper I make for babies. It's my own pattern; it's a little long as its supposed to be a christening dress. I have been knitting since I was eight and taught myself crochet in my teens. The jumper is knitted, with a crocheted edge. I often make them with yarn that is not typical for babies - just to see how they work out. I have no small babies to give these to anymore, so I just ship them off to places I think might need them. They are fun to make. Get crocheting, Foxee, then show us what you did!


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## escorial (Mar 20, 2020)

I'm so thankful I live in the..UK


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## dither (Mar 20, 2020)

SueC said:


> I love both skills and often combine the two. Just for fun, here's a picture of a jumper I make for babies. It's my own pattern; it's a little long as its supposed to be a christening dress. I have been knitting since I was eight and taught myself crochet in my teens. The jumper is knitted, with a crocheted edge. I often make them with yarn that is not typical for babies - just to see how they work out. I have no small babies to give these to anymore, so I just ship them off to places I think might need them. They are fun to make. Get crocheting, Foxee, then show us what you did!
> 
> View attachment 25569




This panic-buying could actually spread to wool, I'm serious. I heard tell of an old lady in my locale who walked into a shop and bought sixteen balls of wool. She said that it would help her to cope with her self-isolating. Why not? I suppose.


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## dither (Mar 20, 2020)

And on that note:

I shall be doing my regular Saturday jaunt to Asda's tomorrow. Not looking forward to it. Firstly.....  the bus ride.......  alleged high risk for getting Coronered.
Then there's the going into the Asda store. It feels vaguely debasing somehow and I'm not happy about that but that's just me I suppose. Why SHOULDN'T I go shop?


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## Amnesiac (Mar 20, 2020)

This corona thing is going viral.



(Ozzy is evidently immune...)


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## River Rose (Mar 20, 2020)

SueC said:


> I love both skills and often combine the two. Just for fun, here's a picture of a jumper I make for babies. It's my own pattern; it's a little long as its supposed to be a christening dress. I have been knitting since I was eight and taught myself crochet in my teens. The jumper is knitted, with a crocheted edge. I often make them with yarn that is not typical for babies - just to see how they work out. I have no small babies to give these to anymore, so I just ship them off to places I think might need them. They are fun to make. Get crocheting, Foxee, then show us what you did!
> 
> View attachment 25569


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## River Rose (Mar 20, 2020)

SueC,,,my reply did not post. I just wanted to say what u are doing is beautiful


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## SueC (Mar 20, 2020)

Oh Rose - thank you so much! I knit and knit and it's always so nice when a compliment comes my way. I really appreciate you saying so.


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## REBtexas (Mar 21, 2020)

There are some very intelligent and serious folks saying that by May there is a good chance that millions in USA will have it.  Something about how when something doubles every few day, before long you can hardly count all the zeroes. Who knows, could mean we're on a sinking Titanic and don't even know it.  Of course some always survive.  But the panic is here; to some degree.  Here in Texas HEB shelves are constantly being emptied.  Fear of dying; of death.

So I am going to put my neck out a bit and mention my book, _Krishna and the Art of Bicycle Maintenance. _This is a 6 Chapter book that I just most recently published on Wattpad.  There is a link below.  This book is free so at least I'm not trying to make a profit.  Putting all that aside, the book does have a purpose and very much relevant to the fear and panic that is sweeping the world today: the problem of death.  One great saint once said there were problems with a small "p" and then there is the big "P" - who wants to die.  

When I had my bicycle shop I was confronted with all kinds of problems I had to fix.  I came up with a formula that applied to all problems.  Could it be applied to the biggest Problem?  _Krishna and the Art of Bicycle Maintenance_ takes about 3 days to read.


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## Ma'am (Mar 21, 2020)

Here's a regularly updated map of the coronavirus spread that Foxee linked to a while back. Does it look to anyone else like the curve is possibly just beginning to flatten? (see the graph on the lower right corner).

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6


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## Biro (Mar 21, 2020)

Ma'am said:


> Here's a regularly updated map of the coronavirus spread that Foxee linked to a while back. Does it look to anyone else like the curve is possibly just beginning to flatten? (see the graph on the lower right corner).
> 
> https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6



It looks like in China they (if you can believe them) have stopped new cases by total shutdown and isolation.  Which obviously stops transmission.   There are those who say this isnt needed.  But anyway the China virus or better known as 'Kung Flu' :grin:  appears to be able to be controlled that way.

Meanwhile elsewhere it is spreading faster than toilet roll hoarding.

I would have thought if you kept your distance from others and kept washing your hands after possible contact with infected objects it would stop you catching many things.  We will see.


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## Phil Istine (Mar 21, 2020)

REBtexas said:


> There are some very intelligent and serious folks saying that by May there is a good chance that millions in USA will have it.  Something about how when something doubles every few day, before long you can hardly count all the zeroes.



That's quite right; I calculated this morning that if it were to double every day, there would be over 2 billion worldwide infected after a month.  If anyone wants to check that, it's 2^31 if it were to double each day.  However, it doubles about every 2.5 days so if left unchecked, theoretically it would take 31*2.5 days to get to over 2 billion - so about 78 days.  However, that number would be massively reduced because you would be running out of new hosts to infect in a particular area i.e. a lot of infection would be back and forth amongst people who already have it or have had it recently enough not to become reinfected, so wouldn't be noticed.  That's a concern too, the possibility of reinfection.  As the virus mutates the body might not cope so well with a different version so could catch it again.

I was good fun at parties too when we were allowed to have them.


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## Biro (Mar 21, 2020)

Phil Istine said:


> That's quite right; I calculated this morning that if it were to double every day, there would be over 2 billion worldwide infected after a month.  If anyone wants to check that, it's 2^31 if it were to double each day.  However, it doubles about every 2.5 days so if left unchecked, theoretically it would take 31*2.5 days to get to over 2 billion - so about 78 days.  However, that number would be massively reduced because you would be running out of new hosts to infect in a particular area i.e. a lot of infection would be back and forth amongst people who already have it or have had it recently enough not to become reinfected, so wouldn't be noticed.  That's a concern too, the possibility of reinfection.  As the virus mutates the body might not cope so well with a different version so could catch it again.
> 
> I was good fun at parties too when we were allowed to have them.



Fella over here on radio yesterday saying that if the virus increased by 30% every day.  In a month I think it was we would have 500,000 infected.   By closing everything down and knocking the amount down to 20% per day.  In the same time period the total would only be 50,000.  A winner if true.


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## Ma'am (Mar 21, 2020)

Ma'am said:


> Here's a regularly updated map of the coronavirus spread that Foxee linked to a while back. *Does it look to anyone else like the curve is possibly just beginning to flatten? (see the graph on the lower right corner).*
> 
> https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6



Nope. Unfortunately, it doesn't look that way anymore.


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## KenTR (Mar 21, 2020)

Just got back from the supermarket. Now they have signs about limiting toilet paper to one pack per customer, but there was no toilet paper so I just took one of the signs.

Pasta is the new panic food. All gone.

Instant oatmeal all gone. Regular oatmeal abundant. Why? People have all the time in the world to cook oatmeal now. (Joke stolen from the late great Mitch Hedberg)

So I bought ice cream and bacon. No longer concerned about becoming overweight with a horrible complexion.


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## hvysmker (Mar 21, 2020)

Now where are those Sears catalogues? *Sigh!* Back to those faithful but unflushable corncobs.


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## Foxee (Mar 21, 2020)

Ma'am said:


> Nope. Unfortunately, it doesn't look that way anymore.


Try clicking on it today, I do think the graph looks better. The link is right in my sig.



KenTR said:


> Just got back from the supermarket. Now they have signs about limiting toilet paper to one pack per customer, but there was no toilet paper so I just took one of the signs.


Necessity is really a mother, isn't it?



> Pasta is the new panic food. All gone.
> 
> Instant oatmeal all gone. Regular oatmeal abundant. Why? People have all the time in the world to cook oatmeal now. (Joke stolen from the late great Mitch Hedberg)



Yep, seeing the same thing here, people are buying easy food but their preferences and budget are still driving what they buy.



> So I bought ice cream and bacon. No longer concerned about becoming overweight with a horrible complexion.


I like that strategy.


I went to the grocery store last night and there were shoppers scurrying around, unsmiling, some wearing masks. There was a man asking a kid who was restocking ketchup, "When will the supply lines be running again?" and the kid said, "We get stuff all the time".

So apparently there is this belief that the supply lines are down. No, it's just that hoarders are grabbing everything as fast as they can. There is also poaching happening right now, you can hear the shots here right before evening and I think that's why the deer have been running. This is when the does are pregnant, leave them alone. There seriously is no need to do that.

Contrast last night with today. I went back to the same store because I needed a few things for my mom's b-day tomorrow and the experience couldn't have been more different. No masks, people were smiling. They weren't hugging it out or smootching but the mood was much better. Looked like a few deliveries had come in.

I wish people would stop acting like we've already ridden the apocalypse all the way to the bottom. We're nowhere near.


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## KenTR (Mar 21, 2020)

Weewee pads make a decent makeshift face mask. 

Fold in half, corner to corner so you get a triangle. Plenty of extra you can tuck into your coat or shirt for added protection. They're a little hard to secure in the back with a safety pin so I tucked the corners under the back of a baseball cap.

They also provide protection from urinating babies.

Coronababies. That's what all the kids born next year will be called.


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## Kopely (Mar 21, 2020)

The panic is awful in the US. Food stores are bare and so many people are over purchasing. I can't believe how much has changed in just a few weeks. 



Sam said:


> Do you know how many people die of the flu every single year? Fifty thousand, on average, every year without fail.
> 
> The coronavirus has not even killed five thousand.
> 
> ...


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## KenTR (Mar 21, 2020)

Sam said:


> The coronavirus has not even killed five thousand.



Current fatalities as of this posting: 13,000.


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## SueC (Mar 21, 2020)

> By Sam: The coronavirus is an example of conversion disorder, also known as mass hysteria, and I guarantee you in three months' time no one will be talking about it. It'll have died and we'll never hear of it again. Just the same as swine flu, avian bird flu, and the Ebola Zaire scare of a few years back.



I wanted to keep this. Let's check back in June


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## The Green Shield (Mar 21, 2020)

While I'm not happy that this is a thing ravaging the globe, a part of me -- the spiteful passive-aggressive part -- is laughing at all the extroverts currently having a hard time dealing with the idea of self-isolation. "Now you know how we introverts feel when you force us to hang out with strangers in a big crowd and go around wondering why we're so _weird_ wanting to be alone, you cuckwaffles!" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





But yeah, it'll die out and we'll resume normal business. Never thought I'd live through a pandemic, honestly.
​


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## Phil Istine (Mar 22, 2020)

KenTR said:


> Current fatalities as of this posting: 13,000.



And if the maths are right, that total will increase by 2x every 2.5 to 3 days once all parts of the world have been infected for a while until we reach a point where it's harder for the virus to find new hosts to infect.  Separation will reduce that markedly.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-toll/

The graph in the link above doesn't show this clearly yet, because deaths from the virus obviously lag behind infections and in some parts of the world the virus was slower to get going due to geographical location in relation to the epicentre in China.  However, it should be noted that the graph line is steepening.


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## Biro (Mar 22, 2020)

Phil Istine said:


> And if the maths are right, that total will increase by 2x every 2.5 to 3 days once all parts of the world have been infected for a while until we reach a point where it's harder for the virus to find new hosts to infect.  Separation will reduce that markedly.
> 
> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-toll/
> 
> The graph in the link above doesn't show this clearly yet, because deaths from the virus obviously lag behind infections and in some parts of the world the virus was slower to get going due to geographical location in relation to the epicentre in China.  However, it should be noted that the graph line is steepening.



Possibly the are a few things going on Phil.

Some countries won't publish the true amount of infections because of political and business reasons.

Some countries will have no idea of the true totals because of remoteness and the backwardness of the country.  China is now heavily involved in Africa.  This means Chinese citizens travelling through the place.  

Can you imagine this virus in countries with hardly any healthcare facilities or any real knowledge of how to combat the spread of infection.

In one respect it is quite simple not to catch human diseases.  All you need to do is keep away from other people and keep washing or wearing protective gloves for touching of possible infected surfaces.  If everybody was to do this for the incubation period then the disease has no way of surviving by reproduction.  So human nature is the virus's aid and humans enemy.

Places of large human populations are the disease hubs of infections.  Places like cities.  In the UK people from London a disease hotspot have second homes in the country and by the sea.  They have fled to these places and no doubt taking the virus with them.  Some locals in such places are quite angry at this.  What will happen?

When the lockdown comes into effect and the slow down of the virus takes place.  What will happen to those people who get and are still infected?  Locked in their homes or taken away?

Again what if the virus infection doesnt slow down because people will not stop at home or refuse not to congregate in numbers?  Will force be used to disperse them?


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## Phil Istine (Mar 22, 2020)

Biro said:


> Possibly the are a few things going on Phil.
> 
> Some countries won't publish the true amount of infections because of political and business reasons.
> 
> ...



This is partly why the UK announced closure of all bars and restaurants on Friday afternoon - they are hotspots for transmission.  Another thing that has been largely forgotten is that local elections in the UK have been deferred for a year as well.
I anticipate full lock down in the UK by the end of the month.  It's a great pity but it's probably necessary.  The irritating thing for me is that I work outdoors and have no need to get close to anyone.  I can pop my window cleaning bill through their letter box after washing my hands by the van, and the customer can pay by BACS or send a cheque.


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## Biro (Mar 22, 2020)

Phil Istine said:


> This is partly why the UK announced closure of all bars and restaurants on Friday afternoon - they are hotspots for transmission.  Another thing that has been largely forgotten is that local elections in the UK have been deferred for a year as well.
> I anticipate full lock down in the UK by the end of the month.  It's a great pity but it's probably necessary.  The irritating thing for me is that I work outdoors and have no need to get close to anyone.  I can pop my window cleaning bill through their letter box after washing my hands by the van, and the customer can pay by BACS or send a cheque.



You think they would stop you working?  So you expect a total lock down?


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## Ma'am (Mar 22, 2020)

Okay, possibly some good news. In the lower right of the page in the link below, it does look like the curve for new cases of Covid-19 is flattening. I originally thought so yesterday but later in the day it appeared as if I was mistaken. Now it is clearly flattening on the graph shown. Perhaps all of the new precautions are paying off.

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html


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## Biro (Mar 22, 2020)

No that curve is a deception because the other populous countries in Europe and America havent even started to climb to their maximums yet.  The UK's response is only a few days old and the infections are still low yet to be discovered like the USA.


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## Ma'am (Mar 22, 2020)

Things just keep getting crazier the past few years. It would be great if the crazy train just stopped. Is anyone else getting urges to buy a big chunk of wasteland to build and stock an underground bunker on? :topsy_turvy:


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## Ma'am (Mar 22, 2020)

This source says the median incubation period for Covid-19 is likely just five days, not fourteen days as was thought previously. And, if this source is reliable, it says the typical time from onset of symptoms to hospitalization, when it occurred, was just 1.2 days. 

Meaning it could all ramp up- or slow down- faster than believed, possibly? Perhaps that could account for the apparent flattening of the curve of new cases in the post above, #192. Or I may be missing something...

https://www.pharmacytimes.com/news/researchers-establish-incubation-period-for-covid-19


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## dither (Mar 22, 2020)

Ma'am said:


> Things just keep getting crazier the past few years. It would be great if the crazy train just stopped.




Yeah.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Mar 22, 2020)

I have to wonder how many of the older folk here are grateful that they (we) lived at the perfect time. For most of my life and all of the youthful part, I didn't have to worry about fighting in a war, we had no major epidemics and certainly no pandemics, we had plenty of food and most of us had expendable income. There was no period that was comparable to the second half of the twentieth century for the average American. 


So maybe something like this pandemic was inevitable. I just hope a world war or political upheaval here in the states aren't next. With a little luck, I won't be around to see something like that. Maybe the pandemic is a silver lining in that we'll start to talk to each other again. We'll see.


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## KenTR (Mar 22, 2020)

SueC said:


> Let's check back in June



It's interesting to go back and skim through this thread from the beginning. The change in tone, the rise of the numbers and stats...I wonder what we'll be discussing come June? 

Here in the US, we were told to "prepare for disruptions" before the virus even got here. I would say losing one's job, being ordered to stay inside indefinitely, and fighting your neighbor for toilet paper is a bit more than a mere disruption.

According to one article I read, Italy's death toll is still rising despite their complete and total lockdown. 

Looks like come June we'll all be like Morrissey, "spending warm summer days indoors/writing frightening verse to a buck toothed girl in Luxembourg."


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## Irwin (Mar 22, 2020)

On the bright side, it sure is nice and quiet! There's no traffic noise from the streets or nearby highway.


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## Ma'am (Mar 22, 2020)

Ma'am said:


> Okay, possibly some good news. In the lower right of the page in the link below, it does look like the curve for new cases of Covid-19 is flattening. I originally thought so yesterday but later in the day it appeared as if I was mistaken. Now it is clearly flattening on the graph shown. Perhaps all of the new precautions are paying off.
> 
> https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html



Okay, I think the graph_ is _showing inaccurate info. because it updates each day as the day progresses- in other words, today's mark on it only shows the count for a partial day so far since the day isn't over, which makes it look like the curve is flattening when it isn't. Right? Dammit.


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## KenTR (Mar 22, 2020)

I just bought toilet paper!!!


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## Foxee (Mar 22, 2020)

KenTR said:


> I just bought toilet paper!!!


It's so easy to feel like a conquering hero now when that happens, isn't it?


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## KenTR (Mar 22, 2020)

Foxee said:


> It's so easy to feel like a conquering hero now when that happens, isn't it?



I'm not even planning on using it. I may need it one day to trade for food or medical services.


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## escorial (Mar 22, 2020)

Do you deliver


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## Winston (Mar 22, 2020)

Our local blood bank is doing well.  It's good to see folks stepping up.  
The grocery stores are still kinda scary.  Frightened, wide-eyed people scurrying.  And the dullards wearing surgical masks (that our health care workers need).
But some local businesses and individuals are making masks and brining meals to our health service professionals.  Hell yea.  

Being a Survivalist, we're stocked-up.  We could shelter-in-place for months.  Unfortunately, the US Navy needs me at work.  I no longer ride the ferry, but motorcycle only to work.  
My son lost his job, but we can feed him (that's why we stockpiled years ago).  My wife was furloughed from her school job.  But she has her side-hustle selling on eBay.   

I hope everyone stays safe.  And prepares for what's next.


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## escorial (Mar 22, 2020)

More humans acting like God's..same old,same old...next


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## Biro (Mar 22, 2020)

escorial said:


> More humans acting like God's..same old,same old...next



What you on about?


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## escorial (Mar 23, 2020)

Humans will carry on the same as before and after... just fewer


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## Biro (Mar 23, 2020)

escorial said:


> Humans will carry on the same as before and after... just fewer



Well from what I can see of the UK at the moment totally disregarding advice and what has happened in other countries.  There is going to be considerably fewer of them.

You reap what you sow and Darwin was correct.


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## escorial (Mar 23, 2020)

Put the kettle on


----------



## SueC (Mar 23, 2020)

I heard this morning that young people, some really young, are coming down with this disease. There was a news clip of a college-age kiddo, spending his spring break on a crowded beach, saying no matter what the authorities say, he was going to party. Nothing could stop him from partying!

I wonder if the kids from other countries are just more well-behaved, more respectful. The US has the most young people falling ill, more than any other country. 

It will be interesting, on the other side,  how many habits we develop now will remain. Will we continue to sanitize like there's no tomorrow? Will we talk to people six feet away from them? Will we stop shaking hands forever? I hope someone is writing this all down - we're writers after all, aren't we?


----------



## escorial (Mar 23, 2020)

Good remedy is to find the juice at the bottom of whisky bottles an pour them into a glass an swig straight down...an at least two hot towels close by


----------



## Irwin (Mar 23, 2020)

Personally, my life hasn't changed very much. I've been self-isolating for years!


----------



## Biro (Mar 23, 2020)

Just found out one of my wifes work colleague's has come down with it........fun times.


----------



## Foxee (Mar 23, 2020)

Sorry to hear that you know someone who's gotten it, Biro. I hope they recover without too much incident.

I just put in my very first home-delivery order for groceries. When I tried signing up for this before (from Aldi) they didn't have delivery out this far. Recently the stores have limited the number of shoppers inside at any one time to 10. Their online ordering was super easy to do and delivery is promised within the next 5 hours. The site led me through a few of the items that I'd chosen (like flour) asking whether to substitute if the item wasn't there or to remove and refund. I'm excited to try this!

A young friend of ours just got a job about two weeks ago at Wal-mart as a grocery picker (not sure the actual title) for people who wanted to pick up their groceries. He was making more per hour than I am as a caregiver and I bet he's busy as all get-out these days. Not a bad gig for someone's first job.

If nothing else the quarantine might really assist the grocery delivery and pickup models. I didn't mind paying a (reasonable) fee for delivery and a tip in place of having to drive almost half an hour to this store, shop, wait in line, and drive back.


----------



## escorial (Mar 23, 2020)

Just received my TV licence demand for next year...phoned up and asked what happens if I die...she said it was non transferrable


----------



## bdcharles (Mar 23, 2020)

SueC said:


> I wonder if the kids from other countries are just more well-behaved, more respectful.



Well, *three teenaged shitbags in Buckinghamshire* were held after coughing in the face of an elderly woman (all of which then devolved into a fistfight) so I dunno, I'll take your youth over ours any day


----------



## KenTR (Mar 23, 2020)

Well at least mass shootings will probably subside for the time being.


----------



## SueC (Mar 23, 2020)

bdcharles said:


> Well, *three teenaged shitbags in Buckinghamshire* were held after coughing in the face of an elderly woman (all of which then devolved into a fistfight) so I dunno, I'll take your youth over ours any day



What a rotten thing to do. They may have to have a new category of crimes; something about putting others in jeopardy. That is really sad, bd.


----------



## escorial (Mar 23, 2020)

A world without old people is sad...not so sure about the ruling classes...


----------



## midnightpoet (Mar 23, 2020)

My son, a freelance bartender/manager, is hurting but his wife is still working.  He says they're "hunkering down" and "pinching pennies."  Dang, he's full of old cliches.:highly_amused:  

He asked me if living out here is the boondocks was lonely.  No, we sill get people coming by.  I've got a sore throat though, I'm taking aspirin and going to bed.  Wife okay so far. Working on idea for poem.


----------



## Biro (Mar 23, 2020)

escorial said:


> A world without old people is sad...not so sure about the ruling classes...



But who would you whine about if there was no ruling classes or Tories?


----------



## Foxee (Mar 23, 2020)

Biro said:


> But who would you whine about if there was no ruling classes or Tories?


A world without ruling classes would soon have some form of ruling classes again.

“Whoever had created humanity had left in a major design flaw. It was its tendency to bend at the knees.” 

Terry Pratchett, _Feet of Clay_


----------



## escorial (Mar 23, 2020)

No one has given the young a chance...teens + could be the future


----------



## Biro (Mar 23, 2020)

Foxee said:


> A world without ruling classes would soon have some form of ruling classes again.
> 
> “Whoever had created humanity had left in a major design flaw. It was its tendency to bend at the knees.”
> 
> Terry Pratchett, _Feet of Clay_



Trouble is when you have those organisations who champion their cause of fighting against oppression and setting people free.  The first thing they do when they get into power is become the ruling classes and put everything they can into making it impossible to remove them.

There was a good film about an example this with Donald Sutherland called 'Land of the Blind'.


----------



## escorial (Mar 23, 2020)

Why would teenagers act that way


----------



## Biro (Mar 23, 2020)

escorial said:


> No one has given the young a chance...teens + could be the future



You mean like 'Snowflakes'?

We have seen examples of their behaviour over the last week or so in the UK.  Would like to see them at the end of the week when the soldiers are on the streets.


----------



## escorial (Mar 23, 2020)

Yes


----------



## Olly Buckle (Mar 23, 2020)

Biro said:


> But who would you whine about if there was no ruling classes or Tories?



Traffic wardens, TV presenters, Dustmen, Railwaymen, Bus drivers, Waiters, Other drivers. You name them, someone has got a moan about them.


----------



## escorial (Mar 23, 2020)

Olly do you ever moan about a micro chip


----------



## Amnesiac (Mar 23, 2020)

The chip they implanted in my head acts up and gives me awful, unilateral headaches, every so often... Other than that, I'm perfectly well. Perfect ly w el l. P er fe ct. ly llew. dit dit daw. . . . . . . . .


----------



## KenTR (Mar 23, 2020)

escorial said:


> A world without old people is sad...not so sure about the ruling classes...



Oh, I am...


----------



## escorial (Mar 23, 2020)

That's a potatoes chip


----------



## escorial (Mar 23, 2020)

Spoon feeders come along way...feed the old by catapult


----------



## Olly Buckle (Mar 23, 2020)

escorial said:


> Olly do you ever moan about a micro chip



Bloody French fries, foreign micro chip muck, I want decent, old fashioned chunky chips like we had when I was a kid. That's not what I fought two world wars for!


----------



## escorial (Mar 23, 2020)

Only mash potatoes in care homes


----------



## Olly Buckle (Mar 23, 2020)

That's okay, I have a personal carer. The advantage of a younger partner, She keeps threatening me with the care home, but it's only a threat bless her.


----------



## Amnesiac (Mar 23, 2020)

This whole corona virus thing has put a lot of things into perspective.  Make friends with an enemy today. (Hug them. Caress their  cheek. Lick their eyeball. Cough directly into their mouth!)


----------



## escorial (Mar 23, 2020)

Keep your friends close but your enemies closer...


----------



## escorial (Mar 23, 2020)

To be in a Care home is my goal in life


----------



## Amnesiac (Mar 23, 2020)

To be the boy-toy of an insanely rich, fabulously HOT 28-year old heiress who keeps me around for her own pleasure, aboard her Caribbean-based yacht... Yeah, that's my goal in life.


----------



## Pulse (Mar 23, 2020)

I learnt a new acronym today, PHEIC, for Public Health Emergency of Internatioal Concern.  This is not pheic news; it's official jargon.

Apart from anything else, power is gained by viruses.  
Those in power will gain if they can postpone elections to prevent voters spreading disease.
So power is taken from inside and out. 

I wonder if online voting will be sanctioned.  
Some people could lose out if they do not have internet access.  
but the emergency began long before the virus

It is not being badly led; but I am scared of political as well as viral opportunists and feel some provision should be made to avoid further seepage of power.


----------



## Irwin (Mar 23, 2020)

KenTR said:


> Well at least mass shootings will probably subside for the time being.



Most of the mass shooters have been white supremacists. Now white supremacist leaders are telling their followers who contract the coronavirus to put their bodily fluids into spray bottles and use them to spray Jews and police officers.

I haven't heard of that actually happening yet, though. My guess is that they'll continue to use guns.


----------



## escorial (Mar 23, 2020)

I'll take a cold 98 toothless


----------



## Irwin (Mar 23, 2020)

Pulse said:


> I learnt a new acronym today, PHEIC, for Public Health Emergency of Internatioal Concern.  This is not pheic news; it's official jargon.
> 
> Apart from anything else, power is gained by viruses.
> Those in power will gain if they can postpone elections to prevent voters spreading disease.
> ...



Online voting wouldn't be secure. Here in Colorado we have mail-in or drop off voting for those who don't want to vote in person. We could easily eliminate in-person voting and prevent unnecessary exposure. For some strange reason, that's too complicated for other states to implement.


----------



## Amnesiac (Mar 23, 2020)

Irwin said:


> Online voting wouldn't be secure. Here in Colorado we have mail-in or drop off voting for those who don't want to vote in person. We could easily eliminate in-person voting and prevent unnecessary exposure. For some strange reason, that's too complicated for other states to implement.



I voted like this in the primaries in California. No problem.


----------



## KenTR (Mar 23, 2020)

Irwin said:


> Most of the mass shooters have been white supremacists. Now white supremacist leaders are telling their followers who contract the coronavirus to put their bodily fluids into spray bottles and use them to spray Jews and police officers.
> 
> I haven't heard of that actually happening yet, though. My guess is that they'll continue to use guns.



Gun sales are up since all of this started. 

I'm perfectly fine with isolation but what worries me is the people who aren't. I mean, if I was forced to attend a party seven nights a week I'd eventually crack. 

I suppose a breakdown of society is what the gun nuts are preparing for. They always have been.


----------



## Biro (Mar 23, 2020)

KenTR said:


> Gun sales are up since all of this started.
> 
> I'm perfectly fine with isolation but what worries me is the people who aren't. I mean, if I was forced to attend a party seven nights a week I'd eventually crack.
> 
> I suppose a breakdown of society is what the gun nuts are preparing for. They always have been.



So if they prepared for it, why are they nuts?   People who do not prepare for things are stupid arent they?


----------



## Irwin (Mar 23, 2020)

At least some leaders are taking this seriously...



> DENVER — Denver Mayor Michael Hancock on Monday issued a "stay-at-home" executive order amid the coronavirus outbreak, ordering all city residents to stay inside their homes except for essential reasons.
> https://www.thedenverchannel.com/ne...-stay-at-home-order-amid-coronavirus-outbreak



... unlike some orange people who will go unnamed...


----------



## Biro (Mar 23, 2020)

Irwin said:


> At least some leaders are taking this seriously...
> 
> 
> 
> ... unlike some orange people who will go unnamed...



Mayor Michael Hancock...............A Democrat by any chance?


----------



## KenTR (Mar 23, 2020)

Biro said:


> So if they prepared for it, why are they nuts?   People who do not prepare for things are stupid arent they?



I knew I shouldn't have used "gun nuts", but "gun enthusiasts" would have weakened my point. 

I don't consider myself stupid, but I have yet to prepare for an earthquake. Or a clown uprising. Or the Rapture. 

Brown skinned people being treated as fairly as pink skinned people will not be a breakdown of society. 

Sorry, I can't hide my bias against and fear of radical right wing Christians with 240 AK-47's in their garage.

If every black person in America applied for a gun license, gun control would be passed faster than Mitch McConnell could eat an entire head of lettuce without his hands.


----------



## Biro (Mar 24, 2020)

KenTR said:


> I knew I shouldn't have used "gun nuts", but "gun enthusiasts" would have weakened my point.
> 
> I don't consider myself stupid, but I have yet to prepare for an earthquake. Or a clown uprising. Or the Rapture.
> 
> ...



I wasnt having a go at you I was pointing out the words.

I never knew black people didnt have guns in the USA.  I just assumed all people did who wanted them?


----------



## dither (Mar 24, 2020)

Well, with these new restrictions in place I'm wondering how it's going to look out there, in the High Street. It hasn't been so bad for me so far. Shopping, getting supplies, has been awkward/different, but not impossible. We're eating and the wheels keep on turning. My biggest concern right now is the closure of all libraries, got to be done I suppose but I shall miss reading. I shall ,of course,  be minimizing my forays into the grocery-stores and beyond, and we shall see I suppose.


----------



## Phil Istine (Mar 24, 2020)

*Pricks*

So, what if this is a simulation and the stars are really where someone  has pricked holes in the lid so we can breathe, and the virus is a  malicious software glitch?


----------



## Irwin (Mar 24, 2020)

dither said:


> Well, with these new restrictions in place I'm wondering how it's going to look out there, in the High Street. It hasn't been so bad for me so far. Shopping, getting supplies, has been awkward/different, but not impossible. We're eating and the wheels keep on turning. My biggest concern right now is the closure of all libraries, got to be done I suppose but I shall miss reading. I shall ,of course,  be minimizing my forays into the grocery-stores and beyond, and we shall see I suppose.



I check out ebooks from the library and read them on my tablet via the libraries' apps. For me, they're better than regular books because I can make the font bigger to compensate for my stigmatism. If your library doesn't offer that, you can find a lot of books on openlibrary.org, which is also free, but the books aren't really ebooks; they're just scanned regular books. Still, they're readable.


----------



## Irwin (Mar 24, 2020)

Phil Istine said:


> *Pricks*
> 
> So, what if this is a simulation and the stars are really where someone  has pricked holes in the lid so we can breathe, and the virus is a  malicious software glitch?



And what if covid-19 mutates into a digital virus that we can catch it over the internet? AHHHHH!!! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!


----------



## Phil Istine (Mar 24, 2020)

Irwin said:


> And what if covid-19 mutates into a digital virus that we can catch it over the internet? AHHHHH!!! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!



Yes, that would be a problem.


----------



## Foxee (Mar 24, 2020)

Listen to Grandma

[video=youtube_share;Ey08XMOisiw]https://youtu.be/Ey08XMOisiw[/video]


----------



## dither (Mar 24, 2020)

Tell you what, I'm finding retirement a struggle, add to it this cv outbreak and having to stay indoors apart from a shopping trip, but only when absolutely necessary, is driving me mad. Up until the cv thing, the boredom of retirement was assuaged with a readily available of books from my local libraries, but now the libraries are all in lock-down until further notice. It's driving me crazy.:dejection:


----------



## Biro (Mar 24, 2020)

In the first few years after starting work long ago I always remember some things from those days.

One was all the men used to say "Never get married".  This was something I could never understand for many years simply because they were all married.  They always looked fed up with life and it was only later that I understood these poor soles had to come to work to pay the bills.  Wife and family and all that stuff.

The second thing was these men could not wait for the day they could leave this factory.  65 was the age and off they went into the sunset under a fanfare from the other factory workers of blaring horns and hammers banging on metal tables with streamers made of toilet rolls hanging from the overhead cranes.  Joyful times for the newly retired.

Rarely did any of them last more than 2 years.  Getting up at 5 am and earlier for all of their lives and doing the same thing for 50 years was ok.  Sitting at home with the wife was fatal for these men. 

 The arguments and hatred of the bosses.  The talk of football and politics.  The fun and non stop mickey taking was replaced with holding hands (if they were lucky) on the settee watching the tv and turning into a vegetable.

Boredom is a killer.


----------



## dither (Mar 24, 2020)

Biro,

My wife spends most of her waking hours looking at those silly antique programs on daytime tv. Not my choice of viewing but there you go. So she watches them, and the odd times that I'm there, I sit staring at the floor. I said to her earlier, just thinking aloud actually, "it IS Tuesday isn't it?". To which she replied " I don't know,does it matter?" And you know what? It DIDN'T matter. It DOESN'T matter. How awful is that? And NO, I'm not looking for pity here, it doesn't have to be like that. I just don't see a way out of this torpor.


----------



## Foxee (Mar 24, 2020)

dither said:


> I just don't see a way out of this torpor.


Dither I feel for you, it's hard to have everything upended and to find ourselves becalmed. Doing something creative has always been something I use to inhabit, for a while, a place I prefer to my daily life. I didn't have the nicest upbringing sometimes and I liked to have something escapist. Just like anyone I've been bored at times, too, and found my imagination to be a pretty agreeable place.

It's so hard to get some movement into creative things when you feel stuck, I know it, but I am encouraging you to try. Sketch, whittle, write something.


----------



## Biro (Mar 24, 2020)

dither said:


> Biro,
> 
> My wife spends most of her waking hours looking at those silly antique programs on daytime tv. Not my choice of viewing but there you go. So she watches them, and the odd times that I'm there, I sit staring at the floor. I said to her earlier, just thinking aloud actually, "it IS Tuesday isn't it?". To which she replied " I don't know,does it matter?" And you know what? It DIDN'T matter. It DOESN'T matter. How awful is that? And NO, I'm not looking for pity here, it doesn't have to be like that. I just don't see a way out of this torpor.



Jeez I was posting from memory and in jest.  Please just get a hobby.  Any hobby.  Just do something.  There is no need to feel that way.

To be honest in this day and age of 24hr 7 day per week.  What day it is doesnt matter.  Before the industrial revolution time and day didnt matter then.  People worked played and ate when they wanted.  Not to a routine.

Just find something to do.


----------



## bdcharles (Mar 24, 2020)

dither said:


> Tell you what, I'm finding retirement a struggle, add to it this cv outbreak and having to stay indoors apart from a shopping trip, but only when absolutely necessary, is driving me mad. Up until the cv thing, the boredom of retirement was assuaged with a readily available of books from my local libraries, but now the libraries are all in lock-down until further notice. It's driving me crazy.:dejection:



Hmm. It's definitely a struggle at the moment. But Audible just made a *load of books free* so maybe that could help?


----------



## Olly Buckle (Mar 24, 2020)

I'm out in that garden, I'm still isolated. Had a lovely fire and burnt a load of clay, planted seeds of several sorts, moved a few more barrow loads into my raised bed. Tomorrow I'll try and get round to cutting some more grass. Thoroughly enjoying the peace, no idiots to deal with.


----------



## Theglasshouse (Mar 24, 2020)

I'm isolated at home with my family. Anyone with a cold is now a coronavirus suspect. In my home someone who worked for us had suspicious symptoms.  I am hoping nothing bad happens, or hysteria or panic. The person who worked for us is fired. Lucky we know someone who was recently engaged to marry a cousin of mine. He is a pulmonologist. He's the ideal person to see to treat people with coronavirus symptoms. 

There have been some horrifying videos on what is going on in China. The military are suspiciously quarantining and also killing it seems civilians. It's done or felt with a certain mass hysteria on the part of the person who has the coronavirus. I saw a video. The streets in China are empty. I consider most biological warfare terrorism. A conspiracy theory suggests they want to wipe out the world people population (old people). That would fit the most common profile of someone who dislikes the regime. Meanwhile, according to various sources on different media, it seems to suggest this is like a world war. Everyone seems affected in some way or another. Personally I consider it terrorism.

It could be all conspiracy theories, but we'll find out what is true and what is a lie with due time.

The borders and businesses have been shut down for 15 days. So now I need to wait when that elapses to get what I had ordered. Some say this could be extended like in other countries. Such as Italy which was hit because it's population was vulnerable.  They have the oldest population Europe and a good chunk of the population is smokers.


----------



## Foxee (Mar 24, 2020)

bdcharles said:


> Hmm. It's definitely a struggle at the moment. But Audible just made a *load of books free* so maybe that could help?


Thank you for sharing this! I hadn't seen it. A lot of libraries are likewise opening up their digital libraries to wider borrowing.

Though I haven't had much time to listen to my current one. With the kiddos home and cooking every blessed day I'm still waiting for the boredom that everyone else seems to have. When do I get my boredom? Where do I sign up??


----------



## Theglasshouse (Mar 24, 2020)

Are amazon and barnes and noble's kobo program the only online way to borrow? I ask if there is an online digital library available to anyone located in any part of the world? I would appreciate any information on this. I will google for the information. I know learningally exists for example. I need a diagnosis for dyslexia for that. Which is difficult for me to do right at this moment. Due to everyone being isolated from the rest of society because of the recent events everyone knows.

I definitely will seek a diagnosis since it means I don't have to travel to go to a library. But now is the worst times because of all the shutting down of businesses.

I know amazon has a small program that lets you borrow books, but I need to research more. I think it is somehow connected to a reading forum. But I am not fully informed. So if anyone has any information on any of these programs please share. I was thinking, of buying a small amount of books around the 31st since that would help me write something short such as flash. Which is what I want to write at this point in time.

edit: this has been edited after some research.



> Thank you for sharing this! I hadn't seen it. A lot of libraries are likewise opening up their digital libraries to wider borrowing.
> 
> Though I haven't had much time to listen to my current one. With the kiddos home and cooking every blessed day I'm still waiting for the boredom that everyone else seems to have. When do I get my boredom? Where do I sign up??



To Foxee: there's amazon prime a 13 dollar subscription, that lets you borrow books but you need a Kindle fire tablet. Or you could try paying 119 a year, and it comes with free audible narration. The library is much bigger. The catch is so far I am reading is one book per month. Kindle unlimited let's you borrow more than ten books, but the library of books is much smaller. The database is only 440,000 works in various genres.

https://ebookfriendly.com/amazon-prime-reading-things-to-know/

Also, for those who don't have an amazon kindle tablet you could use a cell phone that has android as its operating system.

I am not sure unlimited is worth it. I am currently doing the research. One source says over 1 million books for borrowing Amazon books. And unlimited usually has books I don't seem interested in reading.


----------



## velo (Mar 24, 2020)

I feel how frustrated a lot of people are.  A couple of my co-workers are already having anxiety from "cabin fever," the whackaloons are stockpiling meat and toilet paper, and there is a greater sense of societal unease than I've ever witnessed before, not even on 9/11.

Yet here I sit realising my life hasn't changed much and I'm having zero issues dealing.  This was my life pre-apocalypse.  The only major change is that I don't have to go into work, I just log in from home every day and because of that my life is a little better.  In the evening I sit outside and watch my chickens chase bugs, usually have a fire, a cigar, and some whiskey.  I'd be doing exactly the same thing if nothing had changed.  

I'm also lucky that I work for a large corporation (first time I've said that) that has cash reserves in the billions and is actually acting very responsibly towards us employees.  Employees in retail locations who can't work are still being paid their full wages for at least 30 days.  My job hasn't really changed at all, I'm busy as hell and since my boss just got promoted I'm hoping to move up into his spot.  

And, in case the whole world does go tits-up I can hang on for a little while.  My wood shed is stocked with just over a cord of wood (which isn't enough for a winter but it's better than nothing....lots of trees nearby) and I have a woodstove I can cook on should the power go out.  I've got chickens and they are starting to really crank out the protein pills with the longer days.  I have the ability and tools to hunt for my own meat.  I have just enough of a yard to grow veg, I just put in three large boxes yesterday and may increase that to five.  I am well equipped to defend myself should that need arise.  My only major weakness is water.  Well, that and I have no idea how to make moonshine and if I try I'll probably go blind.  (look it up, it's a thing) 

I'm not a doomsday prepper but I also have had a very solid view of how fragile societies are for a long time and I like to have options.  I've already seen people fighting in the grocery store over the last piece of chicken and my co-worker's Asian girlfriend was attacked by some cowardly, racist, redneck shits in downtown Seattle the other day.  

Because of the rising tensions I'm not leaving the house unarmed these days.  I'm not worried anyone is coming for me or anything paranoid, but I worry about that person who was already struggling with their reality before all this started and the stress and fear are enough to push them over the edge.  I worry that person may panic over these artificial shortages and try to take matters into their own hands.  I have no interest in not having a way to respond with some agency in that admittedly (hopefully) unlikely case.  


I have to believe that it's because I have several aspects of survival covered without being dependent on other people that I'm able to remain calm and upbeat.  I can't survive long-term but I've got a buffer that will hopefully get me through an adjustment period.  I know a lot of people can't say that.


----------



## LCLee (Mar 25, 2020)

Ordered groceries from Walmart to be picked up at 6: PM tomorrow. as I was adding things to my cart they were taking them off as out of stock. MY total went from $155 to $77 to $45. I dumped the whole thing, I’ll just go to Vons tomorrow and wear my painter’s mask.


----------



## dither (Mar 25, 2020)

Well, I might take a walk out to the High Street later, it seems so long since I last left the house and yet it was as recently as Monday. I don't know how things are on the shopping front but I'm not desperate for anything right now. The main thing for me is fresh air and exercise. It's a lovely day  for a walk and I shall be getting up a good head of steam if I do go out  to blow away those cobwebs. On the subject of gardening ( Mr.Buckle ) There a few jobs that I could be getting on with bu I have quite a few small cuts and grazes on my hands and I don't have gloves. Any suggestions on how to get rid of climbing ivy would be appreciated. I have got some strong weedkiller recommended for tree-stumps and weeds with "woody-roots", shall be giving that a try when my hands have healed up.


----------



## River Rose (Mar 25, 2020)

Lies. 
I am so tired of being lied to. 
Government for the better of the people.
How do you lie to my face
My children 
I know what you are hiding. 
Hiding behind. 
Cowards 
Corral me in my house 
Like an animal in a cage 
My fury builds as I pace 
.


----------



## Amnesiac (Mar 25, 2020)

The combination of the lack of income and being cooped up in the house  can contribute to depression. If you or a loved one is fighting  depression, there are low-cost or free resources online; tele-health,  online counseling, etc. When fighting depression, it can be easy to get a sort of tunnel-vision that makes it difficult to reach out, but please do so. US military veterans, this is the suicide hotline: 1-800-273-8255

 It is vital that we take care of each other, especially right now.

One more thing: Turn the news off. It's a source of stress and depression, and there's nothing on there that's going to cheer you up or make you happy, and there's nothing you can really do about most things that are on there, anyway.


----------



## dither (Mar 25, 2020)

Amnesiac said:


> Turn the news off. It's a source of stress and depression, and there's nothing on there that's going to cheer you up or make you happy, and there's nothing you can really do about most things that are on there, anyway.



Amnesiac, sometimes you only have to look outside your front door. I find it all so very dis-heartening sometimes, I get what your saying, but better the devil you know I guess.


----------



## Olly Buckle (Mar 25, 2020)

Every day there has been an announcement of the number of deaths in the last twenty four hours, Yesterday was 87, up to a total 433. But there has been no announcement today. I am wondering why and fearing the worst.


----------



## Amnesiac (Mar 25, 2020)

Yep. Checking the daily death toll is definitely a cheery beginning to ANY morning! LOL


----------



## Firemajic (Mar 25, 2020)

Amnesiac said:


> The combination of the lack of income and being cooped up in the house  can contribute to depression. If you or a loved one is fighting  depression, there are low-cost or free resources online; tele-health,  online counseling, etc. When fighting depression, it can be easy to get a sort of tunnel-vision that makes it difficult to reach out, but please do so. US military veterans, this is the suicide hotline: 1-800-273-8255
> 
> It is vital that we take care of each other, especially right now.
> 
> One more thing: Turn the news off. It's a source of stress and depression, and there's nothing on there that's going to cheer you up or make you happy, and there's nothing you can really do about most things that are on there, anyway.



I think it IS wise to turn off the news... I watch a little every morning and every evening, then I turn it of... I was obsessing and spending too much time and mental energy trying to sort out fact from fiction, which is hard, since we don't really know who to believe.... try to stay busy doing something productive... I fired up my torch today... did not make much, but it is a small step back to my normal routine ....


----------



## dither (Mar 25, 2020)

Amnesiac said:


> Yep. Checking the daily death toll is definitely a cheery beginning to ANY morning! LOL



Hoping for good news, any sign that they, the powers that be, are gaining the upper hand.


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## dither (Mar 25, 2020)

Firemajic said:


> I think it IS wise to turn off the news... I watch a little every morning and every evening, then I turn it of... I was obsessing and spending too much time and mental energy trying to sort out fact from fiction, which is hard, since we don't really know who to believe.... try to stay busy doing something productive... I fired up my torch today... did not make much, but it is a small step back to my normal routine ....




LIKED.


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## Amnesiac (Mar 25, 2020)

I agree with checking the news for the death reports, trying to see if the curve is flattened.... For now, the bad news sure seems to outweigh the good. In the wake of 9/11, I was mainlining the news. I was channel surfing between CNN, Al Jazeera, NHK, and the BBC. After a week-long steady diet of watching the planes smash into the Pentagon and the Twin Towers, watching people plummet to their deaths, and hearing the horrific stories, I just went numb... And not in a good way. I finally realized how _gleefully horrified_ the news outlets were, and I can barely stand to look at them since.


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## PiP (Mar 25, 2020)

If you want the truth

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/


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## PiP (Mar 25, 2020)

It is more important you understand how to protect yourself than watching the death toll rise. For example do you know how long the virus remains on a surface IF it has been contaminated etc. Research and stay safe.


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## Amnesiac (Mar 25, 2020)

I've heard that coughing into an elbow can be much healthier than coughing into a hand. In the market, I've been coughing into other people's elbows. It seems to help a lot.


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## bdcharles (Mar 25, 2020)

Olly Buckle said:


> Every day there has been an announcement of the number of deaths in the last twenty four hours, Yesterday was 87, up to a total 433. But there has been no announcement today. I am wondering why and fearing the worst.





dither said:


> Hoping for good news, any sign that they, the powers that be, are gaining the upper hand.



I've heard it's way down - 27 fatalities or something, where before it's been a steady exponential curve. That's way down from the general trend.


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## Firemajic (Mar 25, 2020)

PiP said:


> If you want the truth
> 
> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/



Pip, I clicked on the link in your post, It said that the message cannot be displayed, but I will use the address to research it, thank you


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 25, 2020)

87 to 13 did not seem right, but now the Govt. are saying 52 ??  I do hope it really is dropping, but I kind of doubt it.


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## Ma'am (Mar 25, 2020)

Olly Buckle said:


> 87 to 13 did not seem right, but now the Govt. are saying 52 ??  I do hope it really is dropping, but I kind of doubt it.



I think they are updating the numbers as the day goes on, so earlier in the day it appears as if there are fewer deaths that day but it's not the full day's count.


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## KenTR (Mar 25, 2020)

[video=youtube;T0A7j49T-l4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0A7j49T-l4[/video]


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## velo (Mar 25, 2020)

"moths-eff-ker"

LOL


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## luckyscars (Mar 25, 2020)

Rant warning:

I tend to lean more toward not letting people die, though I do find it irksome how many of the 'stay at home!' brigade or the 'this is tolerable! see!' brigade are not people whose existences are necessarily on the line to begin with. To many working class people, this is a choice between being burned to death or drowned.

The Mayor of New York Andrew Cuomo is a good example of this in action. He is standing there, quite eloquently and in many respects quite correctly, jabbering about the importance lock downs and saying he will take responsibility for the economic outcome of his decisions. Yeah, but he won't actually, will he? Not really. Worst case scenario, he'll lose a future election (unlikely in NYC anyway) and look kind of bad. But he wont starve. He wont lose his house. He doesn't have to worry on that level.

I'm not saying that such people are not sincere or that this isn't a big deal or that a lock-down isn't totally necessary (it demonstrably is). What I am saying is that the people who just want to go back to work and to hell with it are not necessarily idiots. They are not necessarily selfishly wanting to spread the disease and strain the services or whatever else. They are simply people who have no choice.

As it stands, Congress has failed to act, I am unaware of any major country where people are being given the necessary economic security to do what they are being asked/mandated to do. The result is one big political/class-based blame game. If you're working in a relatively secure industry and can operate from home then great...but you don't really have the right to pass judgment on other people. Some people were already underwater before this started. It is the height of tea-sipping liberal self-righteousness to write those people off as assholes.

We need to be more empathetic.


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## Biro (Mar 26, 2020)

People arent owned by the state and should be allowed to do what they want to do.........except that people are also allowed not to be infected with 'anything' from others.

It's a tough decision to make and enforce.  Politicians by default arent the cleverest of people to make such a decision.


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## bdcharles (Mar 26, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> To many working class people, this is a choice between being burned to death or drowned.
> ...
> 
> What I am saying is that the people who just want to go back to work and to hell with it are not necessarily idiots. They are not necessarily selfishly wanting to spread the disease and strain the services or whatever else. They are simply people who have no choice.
> ...



Agreed. It's not like the average sheet metal worker can forge steel in their front room. But the UK and other European governments are proposing to pay up to 80% of wages in such cases. This is like what I was saying the other day. Mortgages are on hold for 3 months (need to call mine up actually). Dunno how it is elsewhere though.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...099a5a-6abe-11ea-b199-3a9799c54512_story.html


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## bdcharles (Mar 26, 2020)

Biro said:


> People arent owned by the state and should be allowed to do what they want to do



Freedom for me involves oiks roaming the streets and mugging old people. A light-touch benign dictatorship is the way forward, and I think more people are coming round to this view so as your beloved leader, let me propose a raft of new measures:

_{The speaker launches into a protracted manifesto. Burly guards at every door ensure constant listening}

_


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## Biro (Mar 26, 2020)

bdcharles said:


> Freedom for me involves oiks roaming the streets and mugging old people. A light-touch benign dictatorship is the way forward, and I think more people are coming round to this view so as your beloved leader, let me propose a raft of new measures:
> 
> _{The speaker launches into a protracted manifesto. Burly guards at every door ensure constant listening}
> 
> _



I meant within the law.  But nobody should allow another person to infect them or assault them.   Anybody who breaks the law has no rights so if they suffer during their law breaking then thats how it should be.


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## Bayview (Mar 26, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> As it stands, Congress has failed to act, I am unaware of any major country where people are being given the necessary economic security to do what they are being asked/mandated to do. The result is one big political/class-based blame game. If you're working in a relatively secure industry and can operate from home then great...but you don't really have the right to pass judgment on other people. Some people were already underwater before this started. It is the height of tea-sipping liberal self-righteousness to write those people off as assholes.
> 
> We need to be more empathetic.



If people were only breaking quarantine to go to work, that'd be one thing.

Canada is paying $2K a month to anyone who's unable to work because of Corona virus. It's not a lot, but it should be enough to keep the wolf from the door. But we've still had to close most of our parks because too many idiots were congregating in them on their time off.

Compassion for those who have to work? Yeah, okay. Compassion for those who want to hang out in crowds for fun? Nope. I've got none.


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## Foxee (Mar 26, 2020)

Well, regardless of lockdowns, government action/inaction, I've got my little letter printed out that my agency said to "KEEP WITH YOU AT ALL TIMES" (their capitals, not mine) that says I may move about to go to work and if stopped and questioned my employer has to have furnished a manager's name and number who can be reached any time day or night. This is from the Governer's office of Pennsylvania.

I"m not saying that there's necessarily going to be enforcement of a curfew or lockdown but someone somewhere thinks this may be possible. So, out into the ghost towns, empty streets...

[video=youtube_share;B4c_SkROzzo]https://youtu.be/B4c_SkROzzo[/video]


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 26, 2020)

Olly Buckle said:


> 87 to 13 did not seem right, but now the Govt. are saying 52 ??  I do hope it really is dropping, but I kind of doubt it.



Today they announce that they have changed their criteria for counting and are only counting people after their next of kin has been informed. I suppose that if you have no relatives you don't count   

You are right PIP, it is observing precautions that counts, looking for success not counting failures, but I'm a bit cynical. There was a minister on TV last night being interviewed about the supply of ventilators, and when he wasn't evading questions I'll swear he was lying.


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## Pulse (Mar 26, 2020)

Irwin

#245 Yes.  We have postal voting in the UK, but that wouldn't necesarily prevent the spread of germs.  No system is secure if people want to abuse it.  The world is at the mercy of opportunists, both internal and external.


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## PiP (Mar 26, 2020)

I feel humbled by the support offered by our local community. I've just received notification that our local Camara (council) has set up a physiological support helpline (in English) for those in distress. They have also organised shopping support for those over 65 or health condition they will bring the shopping to your house because they realise many expats may not have the support of friends or family and are struggling alone. I feel blessed to live in such a wonderful supportive community.


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## Ibb (Mar 26, 2020)

I remember first reading about this in December before it made it to mainstream US media, courtesy the paranoid schizos of 4chan, and thinking: "This shit looks bad... Is it going to come here?" then talking about it more openly in January and February with my friends only to be dismissed as buying into media hype. Our news has cried wolf so many times over nothing that it only makes sense people didn't heed the message until it was too late. I don't think some people appreciate just how much the world is about to be changed in light of this. We're in the throes of history right now. I wish everybody safety and peace of mind. 

On a lighter note, if you have a significant other, I've run multiple tests on my girlfriend's vagina and can confirm that having unrepentant sex across every square inch of your house is a good way to pass the time and also improve your stamina and flexibility.


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## luckyscars (Mar 26, 2020)

Bayview said:


> Canada is paying $2K a month to anyone who's unable to work because of Corona virus. It's not a lot, but it should be enough to keep the wolf from the door.



Should it? You sure? Sounds presumptive. Granted, I don’t know what else they might be doing insofar as mortgage relief etc. But two thousand dollars isn’t very much to a lot of people. I believe the cost of living in Canada is a little higher than in the US (obviously depending on where you are) so two thousand will presumably cover a mortgage payment and maybe a couple of bills — maybe — but it won’t cover those plus, say, credit card debt, student loan payments, medical bills (less of an issue in Canada but I assume not all medical expenses are covered for one reason or another - unsure) and really anything so far as groceries, gas, a car payment? I don’t imagine most people in many parts of Canada can survive on $24,000 a year without hardship. I fundamentally disagree with the principle that these flat payments in the amounts they currently are being offered are acceptable. Government should be paying people’s salaries in full. The UKs 80% is obviously better — but why 80%? 

Why should people have to go without at all in any country that has sufficient funds to have, say, nuclear weapons or to host olympics or build oil pipelines or whatever else they fritter away money on? 80% of “barely enough money to live on” is “definitely not enough money to live on”. 

Promising $2,000 a month to people not to work also does nothing to address long term job security. Are they mandating that business can't lay you off? If not, a lot of working people are thinking past the immediate few weeks and into the future. They can't afford an extended economic recession that not only decimates their immediate working prospects but their working prospects in six months -- when the government will presumably be done with their two thousand dollar payments and be pushing on people to 'go back to work'. What if that company or that industry is no longer there? That's decades of tenure, of benefits, of a career path perhaps, gone. People aren't even necessarily only thinking about their own needs. Some of these retail places, restaurant places, ain't coming back, and it's not because of the virus directly...but because they were shut down.

 This is literally the point of government for me, far beyond anything they ordinarily might spend money on. Means testing is fine though I doubt it is possible to do quickly so even if it means a few rich people get some, so be it. Don’t just reduce the financial reasoning for people to be resentful of staying inside, eliminate it. Support the economy AND health and, above all, quit calling people stupid for wanting to go back to work.


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## Amnesiac (Mar 26, 2020)

Very well said, Lucky. I won't even get into my rant about fascism masquerading as good intentions.


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## Biro (Mar 26, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> Should it? You sure? Sounds presumptive. Granted, I don’t know what else they might be doing insofar as mortgage relief etc. But two thousand dollars isn’t very much to a lot of people. I believe the cost of living in Canada is a little higher than in the US (obviously depending on where you are) so two thousand will presumably cover a mortgage payment and maybe a couple of bills — maybe — but it won’t cover those plus, say, credit card debt, student loan payments, medical bills (less of an issue in Canada but I assume not all medical expenses are covered for one reason or another - unsure) and really anything so far as groceries, gas, a car payment? I don’t imagine most people in many parts of Canada can survive on $24,000 a year without hardship. I fundamentally disagree with the principle that these flat payments in the amounts they currently are being offered are acceptable. Government should be paying people’s salaries in full. The UKs 80% is obviously better — but why 80%?
> 
> Why should people have to go without at all in any country that has sufficient funds to have, say, nuclear weapons or to host olympics or build oil pipelines or whatever else they fritter away money on? 80% of “barely enough money to live on” is “definitely not enough money to live on”.
> 
> ...



Here in Ireland we have been given 200 euro per week with the promise of more.  We are staying at home for 6 weeks possibly in an attempt to contain and reduce the spread.

Some had estimated that the economy was to grow at approx 5% this year.  Now after the virus they say the economy will shrink by at least 7.5%.

The magic money tree has consequences it seems.  But I am old enough to know something else.  When a Government gives you something.  They usually take it back and then some.  So be prepared!!!


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## Firemajic (Mar 26, 2020)

my neighbor who lives right behind me, took off his wooden front door and installed a heavy metal security door... and the local news last night reported that people are breaking in to cars, they asked that everyone who has access to a garage, park their cars inside... they suggested if you leave your car on the street, try to park in a lighted area and lock it up.... 

Correct me if I am wrong, but these things are adding to an already unstable situation...


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## ppsage (Mar 26, 2020)

PiP said:


> I feel humbled by the support offered by our local community. I've just received notification that our local Camara (council) has set up a physiological support helpline (in English) for those in distress. They have also organised shopping support for those over 65 or health condition they will bring the shopping to your house because they realise many expats may not have the support of friends or family and are struggling alone. I feel blessed to live in such a wonderful supportive community.


This is also my experience in the small town where I live.


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## velo (Mar 26, 2020)

Firemajic said:


> my neighbor who lives right behind me, took off his wooden front door and installed a heavy metal security door... and the local news last night reported that people are breaking in to cars, they asked that everyone who has access to a garage, park their cars inside... they suggested if you leave your car on the street, try to park in a lighted area and lock it up....
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong, but these things are adding to an already unstable situation...



These people are not viewing the world in the same way as we are.  Opportunists will use our preoccupation with the virus to take what they want, accelerating social decay.  Those who are panicking are doing the same thing.  These are the asshats in their toilet paper bunkers.  

Both flavours of these ilk are weak-minded but they also are able to impact us and our society as a whole.  Even though supply chains are working, the panic brigade has caused artificial shortages in several countries.  I've not heard of looting in my area but I do know that Asian Americans are being attacked on the streets of Seattle by people with room-temperature IQs.  Some agencies are already discussing looting making me wonder if it has already started.  https://www.sacda.org/2020/03/25/covid-19-health-crisis-and-looting-alert/


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## Ma'am (Mar 26, 2020)

It reminds me of how things go after a hurricane here, as far as there not being many people out and about and the feeling that you need to increase whatever safeguards you can because the usual supports may not be there. And of course there will always be a few scumbags who take advantage however they can.


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## dither (Mar 26, 2020)

Ma'am said:


> It reminds me of how things go after a hurricane here, as far as there not being many people out and about and the feeling that you need to increase whatever safeguards you can because the usual supports may not be there. And of course there will always be a few scumbags who take advantage however they can.



Sad but true.

I think maybe we have it too easy  in GB. We don't have disasters here. Although, of course, this a global thing. Some countries have some idea of pulling together. Here, on the streets, in some places, people are like rats in a barrel, it's every man for himself.


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## Bayview (Mar 26, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> Should it? You sure? Sounds presumptive. Granted, I don’t know what else they might be doing insofar as mortgage relief etc. But two thousand dollars isn’t very much to a lot of people.



I don't think it makes sense to assume this is a _permanent_ solution. Like, I don't think it makes sense to look at as a year-long thing. I'm not saying for sure it won't go that long, but I don't think we need to be making current policy decisions based on a worst case scenario.

I also think there are different elements at work in terms of expectations. Most people I know are higher earners and wouldn't be able to maintain their current lifestyles on $2K a month, but they also aren't losing their jobs. They're working from home or taking vacation time or whatever other perks come with being higher earners.

For lower-income people? $2K per adult is $4K per household. Yeah, I think that will cover the basics.

Our minimum wage is $14 an hour, so the $2K a month is in the ballpark of what a minimum wage worker would be earning regularly.

I'm not saying it's luxurious, or that it should be enough to keep people happy _forever_. But enough to keep them from going out and becoming plague carriers for the rest of us? Yes, I think it should be enough.


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## Ma'am (Mar 26, 2020)

I'm _guessing_ that things will be shut down for maybe a month more, to give hospitals time to ramp up and, hopefully, flatten the curve. Then maybe another shut down or two, for a couple more waves of Covid-19 until it burns itself out. Maybe?


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## luckyscars (Mar 26, 2020)

Bayview said:


> Most people I know are higher earners and wouldn't be able to maintain their current lifestyles on $2K a month, but they also aren't losing their jobs. They're working from home or taking vacation time or whatever other perks come with being higher earners.
> 
> For lower-income people? $2K per adult is $4K per household. Yeah, I think that will cover the basics.
> 
> ...



It's just not correct. Plenty of higher earners (as in, people who earn say $70,000 a year) have jobs under threat. It depends what industry they are in. Not how much they earn. 

The District Manager of a Starbucks is a 'higher earner'. So is a General Manager of a hotel, most restaurants, casinos, etc. Airline pilots definitely make good money. So do certain types of sales people, realtors, etc. These people are getting laid off at similar rates to servers, bussers, etc right now. There are just fewer of them to begin with and removing them a little more complicated due to tenure, severance obligations, non-disclosure agreements, unions, etc, so it isn't as publicly visible. Doesn't matter that much if you can do the work at home. If there's no money coming in and you rely on the sectors of the economy that are hurting, you're a target for elimination.

Also it needs taken into account that most 'higher earners' (again, not talking about the super rich but middle-class people who earn $60-100k) tend to have large amounts of student debt as many of those jobs require a degree. Student debt, at least in the US, is one of the biggest drains on household income. You also cannot escape it through bankruptcy and debt has to be taken into account when measuring net income. When you do take it into account, there are plenty of high paid jobs in which the people earning these high salaries earn little more than an 'unskilled' worker in cash-in-pocket terms due to the former's debt situation eating into their monthly outgoings. 

Together with the huge variances in cost of living, that is basically why these flat payments don't work in practice nor function as an adequate reasoning for 'why can't you just stay at home?', assuming we all agree people shouldn't be forced out of their houses (mass evictions would be a great way to spread infection!). Because people's individual finances are complicated. There isn't a number that adequately defines what is sufficient for everybody and when people start saying stuff like 'that should be enough...' it's just flat wrong.

Governments need to be matching salaries for those affected, guaranteeing job security for as long as they are mandating the shutdowns, and supporting businesses that absolutely need it when required through interest-free loans. Nothing else works.


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## Ma'am (Mar 27, 2020)

Does anyone know... what effect drinking a lot of water has on a virus? Does it shorten the duration or severity of a viral illness in some way, or just make the ill person feel better to stay hydrated? (I am not a medical person, obviously)


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## Bayview (Mar 27, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> It's just not correct. Plenty of higher earners (as in, people who earn say $70,000 a year) have jobs under threat. It depends what industry they are in. Not how much they earn.



You keep addressing the Canadian situation with American understandings, and I don't think that's a good way to go. For example, no, (from a previous post) there should not be any significant medical costs for Canadians dealing with Corona Virus. And no, (from this post), student loans aren't as serious of an issue for Canadians (we have lower tuition and more forgiveness/flexible payment options). We're also a more heavily unionized environment, so the union protections you acknowledge apply to more people.

But all of this is a bit of a sidetrack. The original point, as I understood it, was that people couldn't afford to not go to work and that was why they were going out and risking everyone's lives. I'm not saying that $2K a month is enough for all people to avoid all hardship. I'm saying that it's enough, short term, for people to be able to scrape by and not have to go out and risk everyone's lives.

Compassion for people who stay home, take the $2K, and have to really cut back in order to get by? Sure, I have that. Compassion for people who could have taken the $2K and instead went out and endangered everyone's lives? No. I don't have that.


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## luckyscars (Mar 27, 2020)

Bayview said:


> I'm not saying that $2K a month is enough for all people to avoid all hardship. I'm saying that it's enough, short term, for people to be able to scrape by and not have to go out and risk everyone's lives.



What people are you speaking of? Just the ones you know? The vast majority? Everyone? And what are you defining as hardship? 

There's a difference between a hardship that simply means 'I'll just have to have pasta again' or 'no vacation this year!' -- that is perfectly reasonable -- and a hardship that results in a serious mental or physical decline. Then there's the kind of hardship that leads to suicide or eviction. I don't understand the apparent flippancy that goes with 'two thousand should be enough for people'. What is your data? Because to make these kinds of broad-sweeping personal finance claims, in my opinion, you should have data. 

To be clear, I support the lockdowns. What I don't support is people judging others based on a single figure. My concern here is really coming from basic math (the only 'data' I have) not some kind of assumed understanding of the financial situation of any people in any country.

You say "[2k should be] enough, short term, for people to be able to scrape by and not have to go out and risk everyone's lives." Put aside the fact I don't know what you feel constitutes 'short term' (weeks? months? they say no vaccination this year, so IDK) and all I am doing is googling 'average mortgage payment in Canada' and I get this:



> Assuming a 5-year fixed rate of 2.79%, your monthly mortgage payment would be *$1,847*



Okay, so your 2k should be able to cover your mortgage-- assuming you're at or below the average, and assuming you own a home (although that's probably not so relevant -- average rent in Toronto is still well over a thousand dollars). That's great, the government's 2k means you wont be homeless. Except, after which you only have $153 to last the month, of course. You have no other income.

Sure, this might still be okay for some people. Good for them. But it isn't enough to service any utilities or even a pretty small credit card debt or, I don't know, replace a crapped out furnace or refrigerator? It's not enough. It's not acceptable. It's not _sustainable._ And that is why people want to go back to work. That deserves concern upfront, in my opinion. They shouldn't have to do what you want and suffer _before _you'll feel compassionate. It's too late.

What I do think is going on here is people are (rightly) very scared about the impacts of other people flouting the restrictions and are (wrongly) willing to turn a blind eye to the entire economic perspective and the issue of holding the government responsible for fixing that properly, as opposed to putting it all on Joe Schmoe. I am seeing a _lot_ of desire to blame the public, not nearly enough to blame the governments who are doing too little. Far too much rolling over and taking the table scraps, just so long as said government acts concerned enough. This is, not coincidentally, exactly how climate change inaction has been thus far. It's a bunch of finger pointing at some ass for not recycling. There has been zero accountability with any of these problems.

Yeah, no, fuck that. Demand more. Raise the bar. And if they won't do the right thing...throw up the barricades and get out the guillotine and cut off their heads. I mean that entirely seriously. This is the essence of the entire problem: _They have the money to do more,_ _they are choosing not to, and we are not angry enough._


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## Biro (Mar 27, 2020)

Bayview said:


> For lower-income people? $2K per adult is $4K per household. Yeah, I think that will cover the basics.
> 
> Our minimum wage is $14 an hour, so the $2K a month is in the ballpark of what a minimum wage worker would be earning regularly.
> 
> I'm not saying it's luxurious, or that it should be enough to keep people happy _forever_. But enough to keep them from going out and becoming plague carriers for the rest of us? Yes, I think it should be enough.



Bayview the reason they are giving you the money is so that you have enough food and essential items.  Other payments do not really come into the situation.  If they do not give you the money it goes similar to this.

After a couple of days of not enough food people will venture out looking for it.  When people are hungry and fearful they care little for law and order and unpaid bills.  This time period is just a few days.

In towns and cities they will rob shops.  The police will be overwhelmed.  This will also happen in countries where the population do not have guns.

When those shops are depleted in the first week.  Then they will go further afield and go into private homes.  Law and order in the towns and cities is at this point completely breaking down.  Policemen do not turn up for work because they are protecting their homes and families from gangs of looters and other opportunists.

The military seal off these areas but it means those in country areas are unprotected and are easy prey.  There comes a time where even the military will be overwhelmed by sheer numbers and they also have homes and families.

The time period will be probably 2 weeks and not much longer.

The disease is the last of the Governments worries.

Only if you have a fully functioning military can you regain control over the situation.  But you will not stop the breakdown.

The hope is that adult citizens would stay calm and behave themselves.  But there are lots of criminal minds out there among them looking for opportunities.  They can easily upset the situation.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 27, 2020)

Olly Buckle said:


> Today they announce that they have changed their criteria for counting and are only counting people after their next of kin has been informed. I suppose that if you have no relatives you don't count
> 
> You are right PIP, it is observing precautions that counts, looking for success not counting failures, but I'm a bit cynical. There was a minister on TV last night being interviewed about the supply of ventilators, and when he wasn't evading questions I'll swear he was lying.



Another bit of news, deaths only include those who have been tested for the virus in hospital and die in hospital. Someone noticed this because the people dying at home are young and the average age of people dying did not reflect this.

Someone posted footage of Heathrow arrivals, no precautions, no distancing, temperatures not being checked. There are not as many planes arriving, but there are still a few and at 300 people each that is a big risk.

The Govt. said that they turned down the offer of ventilators from the EU because we are now independent of them, now they are saying it was a communications error

The company whose offer to make ventilators has been accepted is Dyson, a major cash cow for the Conservative party. There was a young man on TV the other night who said he had to export several thousand of them. He is in the regular business of manufacturing them and had upped production, but the Govt. said they didn't want them.

They say once is an accident, twice coincidence, three times enemy action. I am beginning to think this really is deliberate, nobody is that incompetent. Think about it, it is a lot of pressure on the NHS now, But if ,say, ten thousand old people die ten tears earlier that is a lot of pressure off them later, plus you don't have to pay out pensions to them for ten years. Sure you will lose a few young ones as well, but these are the people who talk of it in terms of a 'War', they think in terms of losing a few foot soldiers for a larger gain.


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## Biro (Mar 27, 2020)

Olly Buckle said:


> Think about it, it is a lot of pressure on the NHS now, But if ,say, ten thousand old people die ten tears earlier that is a lot of pressure off them later, plus you don't have to pay out pensions to them for ten years. Sure you will lose a few young ones as well, but these are the people who talk of it in terms of a 'War', they think in terms of losing a few foot soldiers for a larger gain.




Exactly.  There are a lot of beneficiaries from oldies and the sick not being around anymore.  The young and healthy survive.  What you call a perfect disease for some.  Similar to the ones who introduced Myxomatosis to the rabbit population after the war.  Kept down the rabbit population and destroyed the meat diet of the working class.  Farming boomed for years after that.


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## dither (Mar 27, 2020)

It HAS occurred to me that maybe this cv outbreak is little more than a consequence of world-over-population. Maybe? Who knows? Personally, I think that planet earth is on an irreversible downward slide. It needs to shutdown for a million years or so to recuperate  regenerate and then start again, or not.


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## Bayview (Mar 27, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> What people are you speaking of? Just the ones you know? The vast majority? Everyone? And what are you defining as hardship?
> 
> There's a difference between a hardship that simply means 'I'll just have to have pasta again' or 'no vacation this year!' -- that is perfectly reasonable -- and a hardship that results in a serious mental or physical decline. Then there's the kind of hardship that leads to suicide or eviction. I don't understand the apparent flippancy that goes with 'two thousand should be enough for people'. What is your data? Because to make these kinds of broad-sweeping personal finance claims, in my opinion, you should have data.
> 
> ...



The average Canadian household has 2.6 people in it, not one person. If a person is living alone, they're likely to live in a house smaller than the average size and have a commensurately smaller mortgage.

And, no, as I've said, $2k a month is not sustainable. We agree on that. It's a stopgap measure for a few months. I'm assuming things are going to continue to adjust and shift.

I feel like we're being liberal in two different directions, if that makes sense. You want the government to pay everyone what they made before the crisis? Is that an accurate statement? While I think many of the wages being paid before the crisis were unfair and quite possibly unsustainable in a different direction. I like the flat rate payment because it allows lower-income earners to live at close to the standard they've always been living at, while it puts an expectation on higher earners to tighten their belts and sacrifice a little. Paying everyone what they made before the crisis, to me, suggests that people who make more money deserve more support from their government, and I don't like that.

So possibly you're arguing that we should pay a flat rate to everyone but it should be significantly higher than the $2K, in which case we'd actually be paying lower-earners more than what they were making before the virus? I support a higher minimum wage, for sure, and I think this crisis has made it crystal clear to us that the social value of jobs is not closely connected to the amount we pay people in those jobs. But I worry about increasing minimum wage at a time when a lot of small businesses are already going to be struggling. I guess we'd have to subsidize the small businesses in order to allow them to pay more?

Or are you thinking of a permanent universal basic income system? I think that's an idea with real merit, but, again, I'm not sure this is the time to introduce it. Or maybe it is - creativity from crisis or something?

In terms of compassion? I don't think we're using the term the same way and I'm finding your rhetoric too heated, so I'm not going to respond.


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## Irwin (Mar 27, 2020)

Some legislators were seeking a cap on executive pay and bonuses for bailed out corporations. We'll see if anything like that makes it into the final bill.


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## KenTR (Mar 27, 2020)

dither said:


> It HAS occurred to me that maybe this cv outbreak is little more than a consequence of world-over-population. Maybe? Who knows? Personally, I think that planet earth is on an irreversible downward slide. It needs to shutdown for a million years or so to recuperate  regenerate and then start again, or not.



With its hurricanes and earthquakes, nature has a way of saying to mankind, "Don't get too haughty!" 

Do we listen? No.

I get annoyed when people refer to the "fight" against climate change as "saving the earth". The earth isn't going to turn black and fall out of orbit like a rotten peach. It's too robust. What we've done to the environment is no more than a flesh wound. Free from irritants (us), it will heal. Try as we might, I'm not sure we'd be able to deal the planet a lethal blow. 

It's not "Save the Earth", it's "Save Our Species". Why? We've already proven we're not worthy.

For years before all of this started, experts were saying that it's not a matter of _if_ the next pandemic will strike, but _when_.

The same goes for the sixth extinction.


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## Firemajic (Mar 27, 2020)

As I sit here, alone, in the quiet of my isolation, regretfully eating the last of my Doritos, I am pondering what lies ahead... for all of us... what will be our "new normal'... How is this going to change us going forward... I heard on the news that soon it will be socially taboo to shake hands... will we all become so used to isolation that we will be uncomfortable in a room full of strangers... will we all become hoarders of toilet paper and Doritos... hopefully we will all be more aware, and prepared and never take anything for granted....


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 27, 2020)

Firemajic said:


> As I sit here, alone, in the quiet of my isolation, regretfully eating the last of my Doritos, I am pondering what lies ahead... for all of us... what will be our "new normal'... How is this going to change us going forward... I heard on the news that soon it will be socially taboo to shake hands... will we all become so used to isolation that we will be uncomfortable in a room full of strangers... will we all become hoarders of toilet paper and Doritos... hopefully we will all be more aware, and prepared and never take anything for granted....



Eating the last of your Doritos, you make me laugh. As to the rest of it. No, I don't think it will be like that in the long run. It is taboo to go too close to other people here, but last night everyone in the street came to their door step and applauded. Go to 'Clap for carers' on the web. This morning I went to the post box on the corner and two neighbours working in their front gardens stopped to exchange a few words. We kept our distance, there may not be physical contact, but there is a general feeling of goodwill to each other I think.


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## Amnesiac (Mar 27, 2020)

The plump household mammals are on the short list. I've got so many recipes!


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 27, 2020)

I am very fond of children.


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## Foxee (Mar 27, 2020)

It's funny, I was just reading this thread this morning and thinking, "Wow, two weeks to people considering cannibalism!"

So to alleviate a little of the doom and gloom drumbeat:


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## luckyscars (Mar 27, 2020)

Bayview said:


> And, no, as I've said, $2k a month is not sustainable. We agree on that. It's a stopgap measure for a few months. I'm assuming things are going to continue to adjust and shift.



You haven't really been saying that, though.  Up to now, your words were 'it should be enough to keep the wolf from the door' and 'it should be enough to cover the basics' and 'it should be enough to scrape by'. So I still have no idea what you think 'the wolf' is, what the 'basics' are, what 'scraping by' means. Is covering a mortgage + utilities + groceries not considered basic or scraping-by? Because I already showed how that wouldn't maybe be possible for a lot of people in Canada, never mind the United States. So unless you're advocating mass-downsizing of homes (which is...maybe a reasonable position?) and maybe some malnutrition, your two thousand does not seem to be enough for even a 'stopgap', at least not for single people or shared households where previously not everybody was working.



Bayview said:


> I feel like we're being liberal in two different directions, if that makes sense. You want the government to pay everyone what they made before the crisis? Is that an accurate statement? While I think many of the wages being paid before the crisis were unfair and quite possibly unsustainable in a different direction. I like the flat rate payment because it allows lower-income earners to live at close to the standard they've always been living at, while it puts an expectation on higher earners to tighten their belts and sacrifice a little. Paying everyone what they made before the crisis, to me, suggests that people who make more money deserve more support from their government, and I don't like that.
> 
> So possibly you're arguing that we should pay a flat rate to everyone but it should be significantly higher than the $2K, in which case we'd actually be paying lower-earners more than what they were making before the virus? I support a higher minimum wage, for sure, and I think this crisis has made it crystal clear to us that the social value of jobs is not closely connected to the amount we pay people in those jobs. But I worry about increasing minimum wage at a time when a lot of small businesses are already going to be struggling. I guess we'd have to subsidize the small businesses in order to allow them to pay more?
> 
> Or are you thinking of a permanent universal basic income system? I think that's an idea with real merit, but, again, I'm not sure this is the time to introduce it. Or maybe it is - creativity from crisis or something?



I don't advocate paying _everyone _what they made before the crisis. I think I was fairly clear (but maybe not) that I am not talking about the super-rich,. I could give numbers on what I think is 'super rich' but I'm not sure that's a necessary or interesting rabbit hole, nor am I some kind of economist. We all know what a truly rich person is. 

Means testing solves a lot of these problems, but unless and until that is practical then sure, I am perfectly fine with the minority of ric people accidentally getting paid if it means the vast majority of poor and not-poor-but-not-rich get their baseline salary completely and quickly. You can always means-test after the fact: Give people and businesses the money they say they need now and then back-charge them through taxation later if it was determined via audit they did not need the money, did not spend it, or spent it on extraneous crap. It's not that difficult or complicated. I definitely don't think in-the-middle-of-a-crisis is a good time to start quibbling over whether people deserve things.

I guess my question is: Do you actually think everybody who wants to go back to work is doing so in some callous disregard for their health/the health of others? Personally, I don't love my job (nor hate my coworkers and the public) that much.



Bayview said:


> In terms of compassion? I don't think we're using the term the same way and I'm finding your rhetoric too heated, so I'm not going to respond.



I think we are, it's not a terribly ambiguous word. You said you want people to first try to get by following the rules and if/when they fall into deep financial trouble you will feel sympathetic at that point, but not if they voice a proactive concern (bearing in mind a lot of these people remember the last recession keenly and can 'smell trouble') by pushing to get back to work before they have to suffer. I find that a problematic position, but I suppose it is 'a position'.


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## Terry D (Mar 27, 2020)

Olly Buckle said:


> I am very fond of children.



You and Johnathan Swift.


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## velo (Mar 27, 2020)

*A gentle note from your friendly forum supervisor:

This topic has delved into some political topics that we probably would have removed were it not for the current global situation.  I think it's important we all have the opportunity to discuss these very important and stressful events without being hounded by staff about the rules.  I do note that most of the comments have been non-partisan, on-topic, and have steered clear of being debates, which we greatly appreciate.

That being said, many people are under a lot of stress.  I would just like to remind everyone that we all come from different backgrounds, live in different places, and often have wildly varying communication styles.  Let's do our best to be diplomatic and civil while making our points.

Thanks and I hope you all remain well.  

*


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## Amnesiac (Mar 27, 2020)

Olly Buckle said:


> I am very fond of children.



Oh, me too. (I can never eat a whole one, myself...)


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## xlwoo (Mar 28, 2020)

Today I'll discuss with you guys about the function of mouth mask.

As the China virus spreading very fast all over US, especially in east coast, like New York state and city, and like New Jersey first second among US, everyone must be concerned how to stop its spread gradually.  There are three main entrances for the virus enter the human body: eyes, nose and mouth.  The human hands are only transportation to the three entrances.  If we can stop the three entrances, we will never get the virus into our body. Right? So mouth mask is the first defense line against the virus. now most US people don't use mouth masks, they are like to give up their first defense line to let in the enemies. How stupid they are?! And also very stupid of CDC to advise people not to wear mouth masks.  If American public wearing mouth masks from the beginning of the spread, the spread speed won't be so fast like it is now. If at first there are not so many masks for everyone, we can at least let those who have it to wear it, while seeding the production.

(As I am too old to post it on all big websites, I wish whoever support my idea put the posting here instead of me to facebook, twitter, etc. Thank you very much.It is not for me, but for all the health of American people to let them know the importance of wearing mouth masks.)


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## Ma'am (Mar 28, 2020)

I agree with you, xlwoo. I have no earthly idea why we here in the US are being advised not to wear masks! I understand that they want to reserve the premium n95 masks for medical personnel since they're in short supply but surely a lower grade mask is far better than nothing.

I've ordered some homemade ones from Etsy for my family.


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## xlwoo (Mar 28, 2020)

Thank you, Ma'am.  Can you distribute my posting to other websites so that more people know its importance and hinder the speed of the spread. Now it's over 100,000 cases throughout the US.


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## The Green Shield (Mar 28, 2020)

So 664 cases of Coronavirus in my state of Alabama with three deaths.

30 confirmed cases in my city of Mobile, Alabama.


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## jmsx521 (Mar 28, 2020)

I kept writing it as Corona virus, but just noticed that everyone in the world is writing it as _coronavirus_, (including the dictionaries)... and without even using a capital C. Why is the _coronavirus_ word used with lower case, and why the two words are joined? We don't do that for AIDS, Hepatitis or whatever other viruses... why just the _coronavirus_? (Even my spellchecker recognizes the one word as a mistake.)


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## Irwin (Mar 28, 2020)

jmsx521 said:


> I kept writing it as Corona virus, but just noticed that everyone in the world is writing it as _coronavirus_, (including the dictionaries)... and without even using a capital C. Why is the _coronavirus_ word used with lower case, and why the two words are joined? We don't do that for AIDS, Hepatitis or whatever other viruses... why just the _coronavirus_? (Even my spellchecker recognizes the one word as a mistake.)



Coronavirus is a type of virus--not the name of a virus.


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## Foxee (Mar 28, 2020)

Thoughts on the quarantine...

[video=youtube_share;ggrkh-IX34Q]https://youtu.be/ggrkh-IX34Q[/video]


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 29, 2020)

xlwoo said:


> Today I'll discuss with you guys about the function of mouth mask.
> 
> As the China virus spreading very fast all over US, especially in east coast, like New York state and city, and like New Jersey first second among US, everyone must be concerned how to stop its spread gradually.  There are three main entrances for the virus enter the human body: eyes, nose and mouth.  The human hands are only transportation to the three entrances.  If we can stop the three entrances, we will never get the virus into our body. Right? So mouth mask is the first defense line against the virus. now most US people don't use mouth masks, they are like to give up their first defense line to let in the enemies. How stupid they are?! And also very stupid of CDC to advise people not to wear mouth masks.  If American public wearing mouth masks from the beginning of the spread, the spread speed won't be so fast like it is now. If at first there are not so many masks for everyone, we can at least let those who have it to wear it, while seeding the production.
> 
> (As I am too old to post it on all big websites, I wish whoever support my idea put the posting here instead of me to facebook, twitter, etc. Thank you very much.It is not for me, but for all the health of American people to let them know the importance of wearing mouth masks.)



Note, the function is two way. In the early stages you may not have symptoms, but still be infectious, wearing a mask will help stop you spreading it. Also be careful taking off the mask, think of it as being full of trapped disease, dispose of it sensibly, and renew rather than replace, and wash your hands!

This next bit is Olly, not official advice. Some time ago some researchers wondered why the body's reaction to infections of the lungs and throat was a high temperature, they discovered that many diseases of the airways, where the body temperature is a couple of degrees lower than the rest, are susceptible to temperature. Further the cold research council found that inhaling water vapour will reduce the life of a cold by two to three days. Mucus in your nose traps harmful pathogens, inhaling water vapour loosens it and allows you to blow your nose and get rid of it. Being old and taking immunosuppressants I reckon it is worth it and spend about half an hour a day with an old electric kettle. Anything that is going to make life hard for the little buggers seems worth trying.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Mar 29, 2020)

Olly Buckle said:


> Note, the function is two way. In the early stages you may not have symptoms, but still be infectious, wearing a mask will help stop you spreading it. Also be careful taking off the mask, think of it as being full of trapped disease, dispose of it sensibly, and renew rather than replace, and wash your hands!
> 
> This next bit is Olly, not official advice. Some time ago some researchers wondered why the body's reaction to infections of the lungs and throat was a high temperature, they discovered that many diseases of the airways, where the body temperature is a couple of degrees lower than the rest, are susceptible to temperature. Further the cold research council found that inhaling water vapour will reduce the life of a cold by two to three days. Mucus in your nose traps harmful pathogens, inhaling water vapour loosens it and allows you to blow your nose and get rid of it. Being old and taking immunosuppressants I reckon it is worth it and spend about half an hour a day with an old electric kettle. Anything that is going to make life hard for the little buggers seems worth trying.




I always breathe in water vapor when I have a cold. I assumed it helped to kill the germs but either way, it is quite effective. I'm rarely sick for more than one or two days.


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## Phil Istine (Mar 29, 2020)

jmsx521 said:


> I kept writing it as Corona virus, but just noticed that everyone in the world is writing it as _coronavirus_, (including the dictionaries)... and without even using a capital C. Why is the _coronavirus_ word used with lower case, and why the two words are joined? We don't do that for AIDS, Hepatitis or whatever other viruses... why just the _coronavirus_? (Even my spellchecker recognizes the one word as a mistake.)



AIDS is an acronym for Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome, so should really be A.I.D.S., hence the capitalisation.  Hepatitis doesn't need to be capitalised - I've only done so here because it begins a sentence.  As far as the current virus is concerned, it is _a_ corona virus rather than _the_ corona virus.  I'm not sure that making it one word is technically correct, but as viruses can mutate very quickly, I suppose there's a good reason for their spellings to do likewise.


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## Amy-rose (Mar 29, 2020)

I suffer with hay fever this time of year and I was shopping in my local supermarket when I started Sneezing. Everyone looked at me like I'd just pulled a gun out of my coat!


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## Winston (Mar 29, 2020)

Amy-rose said:


> I suffer with hay fever this time of year and I was shopping in my local supermarket when I started Sneezing. Everyone looked at me like I'd just pulled a gun out of my coat!



I have sinusitis, and suffer chest-emptying sneezing attacks.  Yes, this time of year, the attacks increase.  I've been trying to run for cover before sneezing, so the ignorant idiots don't thinks I'm spreading IT.
(Fun fact:  Sneezing is not a Covid-19 symptom.)

The reason I'm chiming in here is I am so flummoxed by people that can't "math".  We have a world with about 7 billion people, with 500,000 currently infected.  That's a rate of approximately 000072%.  I don't know, maybe I slipped a decimal place. 
Regardless, You probably have greater odds of being eaten by a velociraptor at Jurassic Park.   
This whole thing is a matter of perspective.  The world is a dangerous place.  This coronavirus just ranks low.  Very low.  
However, it's been fun sport for opportunistic folks to badger and berate.  Please, don't let me interrupt.


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## jmsx521 (Mar 29, 2020)

Amy-rose said:


> I suffer with hay fever this time of year and I was shopping in my local supermarket when I started Sneezing. Everyone looked at me like I'd just pulled a gun out of my coat!



It's time to put on *RELAX, IT'S ONLY ALLERGIES!* t-shirt, and point to it when people start eyeing you.


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## velo (Mar 29, 2020)

xlwoo said:


> As the China virus spreading very fast



Seriously?  "The China Virus?"  No, the virus is properly named SARS-CoV-2 (severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 ) and the disease is known as COVID-19 (2019 novel coronavirus).  

The virus has noting to do with China or Chinese people other than we think it was the jumping off point where it crossed between species.  'China virus' is a blatantly inflammatory (no pun) and xenophobic term and using it takes most, if not all, credibility from your post.


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## velo (Mar 29, 2020)

Winston said:


> The reason I'm chiming in here is I am so flummoxed by people that can't "math".



Let's talk about the math.  

1- we do not have a complete data set because infectious spread of the virus is still ongoing.  Therefore current numbers can only be used to predict, not enumerate, full impact.

2- world total population is not an effective baseline comparison because that population lives in widely divergent densities.  Look at what's happening in NYC as an example.  The more densely populated an area the higher the infectious spread will be for very obvious reasons.  

3- the R[sub]0[/sub] is calculated between 1.5 and 3.5.  This number indicates how many people the average person will infect during the course of their disease.  Any number over 1 means that the disease is unlikely to die out on its own.  

4- social distancing has a quantifiable impact on reducing the spread. 

5- some serious math on the topic - https://bmcmedinformdecismak.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1472-6947-12-147

What we need to understand is that this infection seems to have a doubling rate of appx four days.  An easy to understand story (perhaps apocraphal but it doesn't matter) on the power of doubling -


> There's a famous legend about the origin of chess that goes like this. When the inventor of the game showed it to the emperor of India, the emperor was so impressed by the new game, that he said to the man
> 
> "Name your reward!"
> The man responded,
> ...



In this case the result is 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 grains of rice.  (that's 18.5 quintillion in simpler terms)

The point here is that we have no idea how much of the population this is going to directly impact yet.  The numbers you provided assume an end case when we haven't even arrived at the peak, as confirmed infections are still growing by thousands per hour.  This does not take into account the vast numbers of asymptomatic people who are out there but can pass the virus to others.  We simply don't know the full story yet.  

The maths here are far from simple and have to account for a number of variables.  Taking a look at the link above those maths are above my head but I know enough to know that simply saying it's only .00x% of the population today is an entirely inaccurate way to look at this.


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## Phil Istine (Mar 29, 2020)

Amy-rose said:


> I suffer with hay fever this time of year and I was shopping in my local supermarket when I started Sneezing. Everyone looked at me like I'd just pulled a gun out of my coat!



Please bear in mind that although the virus may not be causing your sneezing, if you have the virus and are still at the asymptomatic stage, you would still be spreading it.  You can be asymptomatic for a few days before symptoms appear and, indeed, some lucky people remain asymptomatic even though infected.  They can still infect others though.  Please be sure to carry an adequate supply of tissues.


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## velo (Mar 29, 2020)

This page showed 615k confirmed cases yesterday.  As of this writing it's 685k (delta of 70k) about 24hrs later.  That's a more than 10% increase in a day.  

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html


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## jmsx521 (Mar 29, 2020)

I am yet to hear of any mass funerals for the dead coronaviruses killed by the dead patients who stopped supplying them with food.


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## jenthepen (Mar 29, 2020)

On an optimistic note, it's well to remember that we are given the numbers of confirmed cases (those relative few who have been tested) and the number of deaths, but we don't know the much greater number of people that have recovered from the virus and those who have had it and never known because they suffered either no symptoms or such slight effects that they didn't report their 'illness'. Scientists across the world seem to agree that children and young people suffer far less than the old and the vulnerable but, importantly, the young still need to socially distance themselves because they can pass it on to others who won't cope with it as well as they have.

This is an amazing opportunity for the whole world to come together and show the very best of humanity by supporting and protecting each other. As a species we have made so many bad decisions and it would be amazing if we could seize this chance to show that self-awareness and a high-reasoning brain can be used for positive purposes and the common good. I'm encouraged by the way that scientists and medics across the world are working together and freely sharing data and discoveries. The good news is out there if you look for it.


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## The Green Shield (Mar 29, 2020)

Here in the States, we seem to be shutting down on state levels because our_ [redacted]_ leaders can't be bothered to do what's necessary, our_ [redacted]_ president even wanting to open up the entire country by Easter despite health experts telling him that's a bad idea. 


Also, I'm not sure how accurate the numbers are but this is what I got from CNN:








​


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## Biro (Mar 29, 2020)

jenthepen said:


> On an optimistic note, it's well to remember that we are given the numbers of confirmed cases (those relative few who have been tested) and the number of deaths, but we don't know the much greater number of people that have recovered from the virus and those who have had it and never known because they suffered either no symptoms or such slight effects that they didn't report their 'illness'. Scientists across the world seem to agree that children and young people suffer far less than the old and the vulnerable but, importantly, the young still need to socially distance themselves because they can pass it on to others who won't cope with it as well as they have.
> 
> This is an amazing opportunity for the whole world to come together and show the very best of humanity by supporting and protecting each other. As a species we have made so many bad decisions and it would be amazing if we could seize this chance to show that self-awareness and a high-reasoning brain can be used for positive purposes and the common good. I'm encouraged by the way that scientists and medics across the world are working together and freely sharing data and discoveries. The good news is out there if you look for it.



I doubt if anybody who finds a cure for it will give it away for nothing.  They will probably charge quite handsomely for it..........just as possibly anybody else would.


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## Irwin (Mar 29, 2020)

jenthepen said:


> On an optimistic note, it's well to remember that we are given the numbers of confirmed cases (those relative few who have been tested) and the number of deaths, but we don't know the much greater number of people that have recovered from the virus and those who have had it and never known because they suffered either no symptoms or such slight effects that they didn't report their 'illness'. Scientists across the world seem to agree that children and young people suffer far less than the old and the vulnerable but, importantly, the young still need to socially distance themselves because they can pass it on to others who won't cope with it as well as they have.
> 
> This is an amazing opportunity for the whole world to come together and show the very best of humanity by supporting and protecting each other. As a species we have made so many bad decisions and it would be amazing if we could seize this chance to show that self-awareness and a high-reasoning brain can be used for positive purposes and the common good. I'm encouraged by the way that scientists and medics across the world are working together and freely sharing data and discoveries. The good news is out there if you look for it.



Yes, scientists around the world are working together. Those in charge at the federal level here in the U.S. don't believe in science, so we're basically screwed.


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## Ma'am (Mar 29, 2020)

Here's some good news that just came out today:

According to Dr. Fauci, the nation's (USA) top infectious disease expert, lifting the US lockdowns is going to be a matter of weeks and depends on the availability of 15-minute Covid-19 testing. The FDA just approved a the tests, which could be available as early as April 1.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 29, 2020)

Irwin said:


> Yes, scientists around the world are working together. Those in charge at the federal level here in the U.S. don't believe in science, so we're basically screwed.



You think that's bad? Here they believe in the science and are seeing the opportunity of installing an endemic disease that wipes out the old and infirm, rather than aiming to wipe out the disease. Just think of the long term economic benefits? In time there will be a vaccine of course, available for the rich and prudent, it wouldn't make economic sense to just hand it out willy-nilly.


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## Ralph Rotten (Mar 29, 2020)

I was calculating another 35 days of quarantine [here in the US] if we want to flatten the curve enough to keep from overwhelming the hospitals.

I came to that number based on an interactive graph they were running on the NYT website. You could adjust the quarantine period and it would show you infection rates. Anything less than 35 days would put the infected over 10m.

But for me it doesn't really matter. I am essential personnel (even have a fancy letter for the checkpoints) so I will just mask up, and disinfect the equipment with Clorox wipes. Both my son & I are in the same business so we are both sub-quarantining within the house. I haven't kissed my wife in a week (though I did text her a kiss yesterday.) Me & Tony are high risk so we just hide out in our rooms and play video games when we are not working.


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## Ma'am (Mar 29, 2020)

I'm guessing the 15 minute test would take at least a month to be widely available, which would be the beginning of May.

Then, yeah, we'd also need the curve to have flattened too, because not testing positive doesn't mean you can't go straight out and catch it.

I'm sure it would help, though.

35 days sounds right to me (though of course I'm no expert).

But then I wouldn't doubt if we get a couple more rounds of lockdown before it's all said and done. ???


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## The Green Shield (Mar 29, 2020)

Ma'am said:


> Here's some good news that just came out today:
> 
> According to Dr. Fauci, the nation's (USA) top infectious disease expert, lifting the US lockdowns is going to be a matter of weeks and depends on the availability of 15-minute Covid-19 testing. The FDA just approved a the tests, which could be available as early as April 1.


And CNN just published an article stating that Trump plans to continue the social distancing strategies until April 30th. Basically giving us a much better chance of beating this thing.

v Link v
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/29/poli..._botf0TAJdKEUYwGJ9OG3u7fNt6AY6P1y9kyHLsA0mUlM


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## Phil Istine (Mar 29, 2020)

jenthepen said:


> On an optimistic note, it's well to remember that we are given the numbers of confirmed cases (those relative few who have been tested) and the number of deaths, but we don't know the much greater number of people that have recovered from the virus and those who have had it and never known because they suffered either no symptoms or such slight effects that they didn't report their 'illness'. Scientists across the world seem to agree that children and young people suffer far less than the old and the vulnerable but, importantly, the young still need to socially distance themselves because they can pass it on to others who won't cope with it as well as they have.
> 
> This is an amazing opportunity for the whole world to come together and show the very best of humanity by supporting and protecting each other. As a species we have made so many bad decisions and it would be amazing if we could seize this chance to show that self-awareness and a high-reasoning brain can be used for positive purposes and the common good. I'm encouraged by the way that scientists and medics across the world are working together and freely sharing data and discoveries. The good news is out there if you look for it.



Indeed, there was a story several weeks ago (unverified) that Trump tried to buy some promising looking research from the Germans so that the USA could get in first with a vaccine and financially profit from it.  If the story can be believed, the Germans told him to go away (the polite version).


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## Ma'am (Mar 29, 2020)

I don't quite understand "flattening the curve." If the curve is flattened because people are on lockdown, then wouldn't it immediately "unflatten" as soon as they the lockdown is lifted?


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## Phil Istine (Mar 29, 2020)

Ma'am said:


> I don't quite understand "flattening the curve." If the curve is flattened because people are on lockdown, then wouldn't it immediately "unflatten" as soon as they the lockdown is lifted?



Yes, it would.  The object of the exercise though is to (hopefully) prevent health services from becoming too overwhelmed.  It's more about delaying infections than preventing them completely.


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## Bayview (Mar 29, 2020)

Ma'am said:


> I don't quite understand "flattening the curve." If the curve is flattened because people are on lockdown, then wouldn't it immediately "unflatten" as soon as they the lockdown is lifted?



I think it only works if the lockdown is fairly extensive. Because, yes, if you lift the lockdown too soon, the cases would spike. There needs to be some development that makes it advisable to lift the lockdown - worst case scenario it could be herd immunity because the majority of people have gotten the illness (but gotten it spaced out over time so the hospitals aren't overwhelmed). Might also be a vaccine or, more optimistically, the ability to test extensively (so we can start quarantining only those who have the illness, as opposed to locking down everyone on the suspicion that they MAY have the illness).


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## TL Murphy (Mar 29, 2020)

It also only works if people take social distancing seriously. A lot of people don’t. Older people in higher risk category take it more seriously.  I see under-40s whose chance of dying if they get covid-19 is 0.2% ignoring the 2M rule while seniors over 70 who have a 15% chance of not surviving an infection observe it.  On the other hand, under 40’s occupy 30% of the total hospital beds. What does that tell you?


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## Foxee (Mar 29, 2020)

TL Murphy said:


> On the other hand, under 40’s occupy 30% of the total hospital beds. What does that tell you?


While I realize that there might be a certain amount of irresponsibility to explain this (certainly spring break and Mardi Gras did us no favors) another consideration is that a lot of people are working in their 20's, 30's, and 40's and could be in any number of essential job functions more likely to bring them into contact with the virus.


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## Biro (Mar 30, 2020)

Perhaps when the initial onslaught of the virus is contained and infections become much more manageable, then the assumption it appears to be by the masses that we can all carry on as normal and its all 'tickety boo'.

Unless there is a vaccine, then no oldie or sick will..................

Fly.........Go on a cruise..........Go on a coach/travel holiday............Visit a hotel........Large audience sport/music/theatre........Shop at large stores.

Some hotels and tourist places rely on the silver currency for at least 50% of their business.  I assume airlines rely on a fair amount of the silver passengers as well.

So basically there are a few obvious problems which will not go away without a cheap effective vaccine.  

You will be hearing about this virus for a long time to come yet me thinks.


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## TL Murphy (Mar 30, 2020)

Foxee, whatever the reason that people under 40 are contracting the virus in larger numbers is not the point. The point is that with such a low death rate in that age group, it is remarkable that nearly a third of the severe cases are people under 40.  That means A LOT more people under 40 are infected than older age groups.  That makes the under-40 age group the primary carriers and spreaders of the virus.  Yet personal observation indicates they are the last to respect social distancing. One would assume it's because they are not concerned about dying themselves, which is extremely selfish since they could pass it to someone who will die.  Where is the moral compass there?


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## Biro (Mar 30, 2020)

TL Murphy said:


> Foxee, whatever the reason that people under 40 are contracting the virus in larger numbers is not the point. The point is that with such a low death rate in that age group, it is remarkable that nearly a third of the severe cases are people under 40.  That means A LOT more people under 40 are infected than older age groups.  That makes the under-40 age group the primary carriers and spreaders of the virus.  Yet personal observation indicates they are the last to respect social distancing. One would assume it's because they are not concerned about dying themselves, which is extremely selfish since they could pass it to someone who will die.  Where is the moral compass there?



I heard a doctor explain why oldies die from this and other diseases and the reason is after 60 your immune system degrades.  So the older you are after 60 the less effective your immune system is at combating disease.


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## Phil Istine (Mar 30, 2020)

The Green Shield said:


> Here in the States, we seem to be shutting down on state levels because our_ [redacted]_ leaders can't be bothered to do what's necessary, our_ [redacted]_ president even wanting to open up the entire country by Easter despite health experts telling him that's a bad idea.
> 
> 
> Also, I'm not sure how accurate the numbers are but this is what I got from CNN:
> ...


​
President Redacted Trump has since acknowledged that Easter is too soon.


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## epimetheus (Mar 30, 2020)

Ma'am said:


> I don't quite understand "flattening the curve." If the curve is flattened because people are on lockdown, then wouldn't it immediately "unflatten" as soon as they the lockdown is lifted?



This video explores a simple SIR model under various scenarios including that one.

[video=youtube;gxAaO2rsdIs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxAaO2rsdIs[/video]


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## SueC (Mar 30, 2020)

This morning I heard that one of the lunch workers, who prepares food for school lunches that are being distributed to families who are learning at home, has been diagnosed with the virus. So they are not serving the free lunches for a week in that school district. This was really eye-opening, how deeply the virus is traveling. Then I heard in CA people are still going and gathering on the beaches, many ignoring the warnings. How many people have to die before anyone realizes how insidious this virus is? Wiping down pizza delivery boxes, using gloves to handle uncooked, pre-packaged food. Makes me really nervous about ordering in, too. I'm going to be wearing gloves next shopping trip, I guess. Stay safe - and smart - everyone!


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## dither (Mar 30, 2020)

SueC, I read somewhere that we should wash our hands after shopping, wash hands before unpacking the shopping, and then, wash hands before preparing food? A bit extreme? Who can say?


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## Foxee (Mar 30, 2020)

TL Murphy said:


> Foxee, whatever the reason that people under 40 are contracting the virus in larger numbers is not the point.
> 
> Where is the moral compass there?


So perhaps you're talking about motivation, maybe that's a better word than reason in this case.


> Yet personal observation indicates they are the last to respect social distancing.


My own personal observation together with just logic of how things work is that 
delivery workers, 
nurses, 
health care support workers, 
caregivers, 
assembly line workers for medical equipment (my area has several companies that do this), 
restaurant take-out and drive-thru workers, 
grocery cashiers, 
grocery restockers, 
and other essential functions
 were already often staffed by the 20-30's age group. Especially as it was commonly thought that 20's-30's would be safer than the oldest/youngest/complications groups.

Between the unwise (spring break and Mardi Gras) and front-line workers who aren't at home (types of jobs mentioned above) the one-third of severe cases make sense because, yes, these are the people exposed.

Let's not forget that 20's and 30's are often also starting families so that they have young ones at home. Moms (Yes, personal observation for me, too) are at home with young children, sanitizing everything. Maybe one parent is in the 'essential' worker group and they're glad to have a paying job right now.

I just can't go along with the assumption, though, that as a group the 20's-30's are selfish and uncaring. As with any group there are individual motivations and situations.


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## xlwoo (Mar 30, 2020)

President Trump called it China virus. I don't want to steel the honor of the invention of the term.  Someone in another website calls it Chinese Communist Party (CCP) virus. more accurate.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 30, 2020)

I'd buy that, Foxee. My personal experience is of my daughter and her partner. He is a teacher, and the school is shut, but he has to go in to look after half a dozen children who's families are health care workers. 
I am, however, reminded of the interview with an SAS man who went into the besieged Iranian embassy over the balcony. Years later he was asked if he was scared and replied "No, I was young and immortal." It is a bit different though, and most people by their twenties have some fair degree of responsibility, that is when many get involved with voluntary work.


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## Foxee (Mar 30, 2020)

Olly Buckle said:


> Years later he was asked if he was scared and replied "No, I was young and immortal." It is a bit different though, and most people by their twenties have some fair degree of responsibility, that is when many get involved with voluntary work.


I agree, Olly, I originally did think the "I'm immortal" thought process might play into this but I really think that's the slightly younger group in their teens, maybe up to about 21. Partly because their brains aren't done growing so judgement can be a little screwy. That would really be quite a few of the spring-break kids right there.


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## Bayview (Mar 30, 2020)

xlwoo said:


> President Trump called it China virus. I don't want to steel the honor of the invention of the term.  Someone in another website calls it Chinese Communist Party (CCP) virus. more accurate.



The FBI is worried about an increase in anti-Asian hate crimes and has already noted horrors such as:



> a March 14 incident in Midland, Texas, in which "three Asian American family members, including a 2-year-old and 6-year-old, were stabbed … The suspect indicated that he stabbed the family because he thought the family was Chinese, and infecting people with the coronavirus."



So while I agree that there's no honour in your repetition of the phrase, I certainly do think we all have responsibility for the words that come out of our own mouths. If you're choosing to repeat phrases that some people seem to be using as fuel for hatred, I think you should ask yourself why. Are you just trying to be provocative?


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## Gofa (Mar 30, 2020)

Hi
google is your friend 
the virus has a life on physical objects  hours to days 







Ooops the copy paste showed but failed to be here

google corina virus life on surfaces 
in my garage i have surgeon type gloves to keep hands clean you buy them at any hardware store
but really if you dont touch your face it does have entry
the survivors will all be OCD hand washers


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 30, 2020)

Found this
https://skwawkbox.org/author/skwawkbox/

Checked them out on Wiki. NewsGuard say they have an agenda, but maintain reasonable and transparent reporting standards. The Govt. seems to be lying to us pretty big time.


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## Foxee (Mar 30, 2020)

Gofa said:


> Hi
> google is your friend
> the virus has a life on physical objects  hours to days


Including mail. It sounds crazy but a lot of people are wearing gloves to retrieve it, wiping it down with disinfectant, and/or sitting it aside for 24 hours or so. A postal distribution center in Pittsburgh was shut down for a while because they had an active case of Covid-19.

Taking shoes off when entering the house, leaving them at the door. Disinfecting them if felt necessary.

There are how-to guides showing how to have a 'clean' section of counter to move your groceries to once you've disinfected them.

The interesting thing to me is that I used to go to help a man who had severe COPD (he was on oxygen 24/7) and OCD that was intensified because of the COPD. As his caregiver I had to follow his very strict rules, so strict that they nearly made no sense. However, as people are trying to keep the virus away from them, I'm seeing some of his measures becoming common now.


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## Gofa (Mar 30, 2020)

It started in the Philippines but please dont let the facts disrupt your narrative
the Spanish flu started in France by the way
they get named for the first place of large outbreak 

You’re better blaming the weather on some one you dont like 
makes as much sense


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## Biro (Mar 30, 2020)

Bayview said:


> The FBI is worried about an increase in anti-Asian hate crimes and has already noted horrors such as:
> 
> 
> 
> So while I agree that there's no honour in your repetition of the phrase, I certainly do think we all have responsibility for the words that come out of our own mouths. If you're choosing to repeat phrases that some people seem to be using as fuel for hatred, I think you should ask yourself why. Are you just trying to be provocative?



How does using the phrase of 'China virus' relate to some person attacking an Asian person because he thought he was spreading the virus?   Total nampy pampy garbage of a Nanny PC state.

Do you stop people calling it Corona virus in case some nutter attacks the beer company or the people drinking it thinking that it spreads infection?

We all know the virus comes from China.

Whats next banning the word 'French fries' in case someone tips boiling oil over a french person thinking they are a chipped potato?


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## Irwin (Mar 30, 2020)

A crisis brings out the best in good people and the worst in bad people.
~ Irwin


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## TL Murphy (Mar 30, 2020)

Foxee said:


> So perhaps you're talking about motivation, maybe that's a better word than reason in this case.
> 
> My own personal observation together with just logic of how things work is that
> delivery workers,
> ...



I hear what you are saying, that most of our current work force is in this younger age-group so we have to respect that.  I get it.  And I don't mean to be casting generalizations about age groups.  But it is worth considering that when they are generally mingling with the population at large, like shopping or going for a walk, they have to be as diligent as anyone else at social distancing because they could be contagious without even showing symptoms. It's matter of social responsibility.

I had an incident two days ago where I was biking up a road that's closed to cars but open to pedestrians. The road is wide enough for parties of three to pass with at least 3 metres between them. But it's a mountain road with  steep cliffs on both sides, so no way to step off the road. There was hardly anyone on the road.  I came up to a group of 3 hikers in their late 20s to early 30s who were sprawled across the middle of the road leaving me only a couple of feet on either side to pass.  I stopped and asked them to move to one side so I could all pass safely.  The were seriously offended and at first refused to move.  I said "don't be a dick, there's lots of room. Right? Just move over and let me pass."  Eventually they did but not without hurling insults at me. This incident has tainted my normally tolerant attitude toward people in general.


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## Biro (Mar 30, 2020)

Foxee said:


> I just can't go along with the assumption, though, that as a group the 20's-30's are selfish and uncaring. As with any group there are individual motivations and situations.



But unfortunately Foxee some are.  Also there are some old people who are nasty pieces of work as well.  But I havent seen any reports of old codgers going around coughing on young un's and licking and spitting over supermarket food...........yet.


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## TL Murphy (Mar 30, 2020)

Yoga has saved my back and saved my knees and now it is saving my mind.  I attend yoga classes online  through zoom from my living room.  Today, my yoga teacher had some wise words.  He said, "for a number of weeks now, we have all been running on adrenaline. We can't run on adrenaline anymore.  We will lose our minds if we do.  We have to come to terms with the idea that this is the new normal and will be for the unforeseeable future.  We don't know how long this will last. We just have to relax into it and be okay with it for awhile. However long that might be."  This is akin the zen or zen-buddhist concept I've been trying to study recently of trying not to bring all issues back to the self.  How do you do that? You do it by trying not to be too concerned over the outcome of any particular action or situation. This doesn't mean you stop caring or stop trying.  It means you focus on the notion that the practice is more important than the result. This is how we stay in the moment and not get caught up in anxiety about the future.

Here's a link if anyone is interested https://zenstudiespodcast.com


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## Bayview (Mar 30, 2020)

Biro said:


> We all know the virus comes from China.



We all know the virus seems to have first been a problem in China. But "comes", in present tense? Nope. Travel from China was shut down weeks ago. It's not coming from China anymore. It's coming from all of us, in our own countries.

And in terms of being namby pamby? I'm always surprised by people who spend time on a writers' site but don't acknowledge the power of words.


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## bobo (Mar 30, 2020)

[FONT=&Verdana][FONT=&Verdana]Just got this in - some general observations - sounds O.K. to me - but judge for yourself 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




May be it can be helpful to somebody 




From FB,  looks genuine but you may wish to prove its authenticity yourself.

The following is from Irene Ken, physician, whose daughter is an Asst. Prof in infectious diseases at Johns Hopkins University. 
* The virus is not a living organism, but a protein molecule (DNA) covered by a protective layer of lipid (fat), which, when absorbed by the cells of the ocular, nasal or buccal mucosa, changes their genetic code. (mutation) and convert them into aggressor and multiplier cells.
* Since the virus is not a living organism but a protein molecule, it is not killed, but decays on its own. The disintegration time depends on the temperature, humidity and type of material where it lies.
* The virus is very fragile; the only thing that protects it is a thin outer layer of fat. That is why any soap or detergent is the best remedy, because the foam CUTS the FAT (that is why you have to rub so much: for 20 seconds or more, to make a lot of foam).
By dissolving the fat layer, the protein molecule disperses and breaks down on its own.
* HEAT melts fat; this is why it is so good to use water above 77 degrees Fahrenheit for washing hands, clothes and everything. In addition, hot water makes more foam and that makes it even more useful.
* Alcohol or any mixture with alcohol over 65% DISSOLVES ANY FAT, especially the external lipid layer of the virus.
* Any mix with 1 part bleach and 5 parts water directly dissolves the protein, breaks it down from the inside.
* Oxygenated water helps long after soap, alcohol and chlorine, because peroxide dissolves the virus protein, but you have to use it pure and it hurts your skin.
* NO BACTERICIDE OR ANTIBIOTIC SERVES. The virus is not a living organism like bacteria; antibodies cannot kill what is not alive.
* NEVER shake used or unused clothing, sheets or cloth. While it is glued to a porous surface, it is very inert and disintegrates only
-between:
-3 hours (fabric and porous),
-4 hours (copper and wood),
-24 hours (cardboard),
-42 hours (metal) and
-72 hours (plastic).

If you shake it or use a feather duster, the virus molecules float in the air for up to 3 hours, and can lodge in your nose.
* The virus molecules remain very stable in external cold, or artificial as air conditioners in houses and cars.
They also need moisture to stay stable, and especially darkness. Therefore, dehumidified, dry, warm and bright environments will degrade it faster.
* UV LIGHT on any object that may contain it breaks down the virus protein. For example, to disinfect and reuse a mask is perfect. Be careful, it also breaks down collagen (which is protein) in the skin.
* The virus CANNOT go through healthy skin.
* Vinegar is NOT useful because it does not break down the protective layer of fat.
* NO SPIRITS, NOR VODKA, serve. The strongest vodka is 40% alcohol, and you need 65%.
* LISTERINE IF IT SERVES! It is 65% alcohol.
* The more confined the space, the more concentration of the virus there can be. The more open or naturally ventilated, the less.
* You have to wash your hands before and after touching mucosa, food, locks, knobs, switches, remote control, cell phone, watches, computers, desks, TV, etc. And when using the bathroom.
* You have to moisturize dry hands from so much washing, because the molecules can hide in the micro cracks. The thicker the moisturizer, the better.
* Also keep your NAILS SHORT so that the virus does not hide there.

Copy and paste. Pass it on.

-JOHNS HOPKINS HOSPITAL
[/FONT][/FONT]_[FONT=&Verdana]
[/FONT]_​_[FONT=&Verdana]
[/FONT]​_


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## Biro (Mar 30, 2020)

Bayview said:


> We all know the virus seems to have first been a problem in China. But "comes", in present tense? Nope. Travel from China was shut down weeks ago. It's not coming from China anymore. It's coming from all of us, in our own countries.
> 
> And in terms of being namby pamby? I'm always surprised by people who spend time on a writers' site but don't acknowledge the power of words.



Oh really.  Words and people twisting them around?  

The virus started in China and infected the world.  So it is a 'China virus' or may as well be called that.  Just as Irish stew comes originally from Ireland and French onion soup comes from.....wait for it.....somewhere in France originally.

Not saying the country word will not improve the soup or the stew.

In this case trying not to say where a virus came from or not calling it such will not stop people doing what they would have done anyway being as they are already like that.

The power of words?   I think the power of video showing what goes on in that country of question with animals is a lot more powerful and a hell of a lot more incentive to dislike those particular people if you are of such a persuasion.

Still if you can think of nicer words for barbecuing and skinning animals alive, torturing bears to extract more bile for some hairy fairy cure, or even eating bats and other creatures alive...........then you carry on with your powerful words.

You wont change what people think of such a country.


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## Gofa (Mar 30, 2020)

Oh dear dear 

@biro  We all know the virus comes from China.

actually we all don't

some of us know it came from other places 

and as for your Brave leader calling it that 
with his track record with truth  yup it came from some wheres else


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## Biro (Mar 30, 2020)

Gofa said:


> Oh dear dear
> 
> @biro  We all know the virus comes from China.
> 
> ...



Well if your accuracy of the origins of this virus are as accurate of who my brave leader is then god help us all !:-({|=

But are the origins of the real problem in question not with a virus but with a leader?


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## Foxee (Mar 30, 2020)

TL Murphy said:


> Eventually they did but not without hurling insults at me. This incident has tainted my normally tolerant attitude toward people in general.


Ugh! I am right with you on this, I have a low tolerance for that kind of behavior virus or no virus. Just know that instead of arguing, I would hope that what I've said might be taken as a little encouragement that not all humans act this way. We have that unfortunate subset but all is not lost. Not yet.


Biro said:


> But unfortunately Foxee some are.  Also there are some old people who are nasty pieces of work as well.  But I havent seen any reports of old codgers going around coughing on young un's and licking and spitting over supermarket food...........yet.


Oh I know, Biro, that's a creepy sort of behavior that's coming out of this. A store here in my state of Pennsylvania had to throw away $35,000 worth of produce because some woman was walking around coughing on everything. On purpose, like it was some delightful prank.

I don't doubt the darkness lurking in human nature at all, it's why we lock our doors, it's why we hold our children's hands, it's why we have to have security and metal detectors and situational awareness. It's why at times the innocent suffer at the hands of the evil and it's why we need, at times, to be ready to defend ourselves and the weaker among us.

Unfortunately, complaining won't do much, blame either. Indignation feels pretty good for about five minutes before it burns out to bitterness.

So why, Foxee, why write this, what's the point? What can writers do?

Write.

It's harder than bitching and moaning and blaming but challenge is good. Write for catharsis, write for escape, write to distribute knowledge, write to find a sense of wonder, write to encourage other people.

And this goes for other artistic disciplines, too. Most of us are enduring a kind of dormancy right now but that's when a plant gathers up resources to burst out in its time. 

Don't let fear of that dead thing, that protein molecule, rob you of real life.

Okay, I'll get down from my soapbox. (for now)


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## Amnesiac (Mar 30, 2020)

I read that coughing into an elbow is far better than coughing into a hand. Waiting in line at the supermarket, I coughed into an elderly woman's elbow and she got ALL bitchy about it! It's like she knows NOTHING of proper hygiene! Hrmph... Old grouch!


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## KenTR (Mar 30, 2020)

I live in a Chinese neighborhood. At least half of the people here speak only Chinese. Facemasks are not new to me; a small percentage of the people in my neighborhood and the Chinese people I commute with have been wearing them for many years. As a germaphobe, this has always made me nervous: are they trying to keep something out or in? This question seems even more pertinent now.

Now they're pretty much all wearing masks, which are hard to come by these days. Apparently their supply chain for protective gear has been locally active for years. The rest of us make do with scarves and dust masks or whatever else we can fashion. There are very few masks available for purchase here. Finding them means making long treks from store to store, which is like trying to avoid a pool of water by swimming across it.




Biro said:


> The power of words?   I think the power of video showing what goes on in that country of question with animals is a lot more powerful and a hell of a lot more incentive to dislike those particular people if you are of such a persuasion.
> 
> Still if you can think of nicer words for barbecuing and skinning animals alive, torturing bears to extract more bile for some hairy fairy cure, or even eating bats and other creatures alive...........then you carry on with your powerful words.



I repeat Biro's words here with cautious trepidation, but as someone who has chosen, as is my right, to greatly concern myself with the welfare of animals, I feel compelled to reprint them. 

There is simply no way to slaughter and consume a large range of animals without being exposed to a great deal of blood and fecal matter, especially in areas where the practice is widespread, often in private and questioningly regulated businesses. There are "live poultry" stores all over the place around here where anyone can buy live chickens (and often other small animals), take them home, and slaughter them right in their kitchen. COVID-19 is not the first zoonotic disease we've all had to deal with, and it won't be the last. Now that the pork industry here in 'merica has been given the go ahead to regulate itself, pork eaters will likely face a rise in food-related illness. Mark my words: it will happen. Blithe savagery will come back at you, one way or another. 

Oddly enough though, it's not my Chinese neighbors who worry me, it's the young people. The ones who refuse to stop congregating. The ones who are rarely seen with masks or gloves. They cut too close to you on the street and in the supermarket and despite my paranoia, I swear I can detect a hint of arrogance in their actions. Social distancing is not about the individual who distances, it's about everybody else. It's a team effort. While I've never been terribly enamored of the crass and often cruel nature inherent in some of Chinese culture, all talk of it is irrelevant here on this thread. Perhaps the Chinese government could have acted faster to contain the original outbreaks. Perhaps they could have been more transparent with the rest of the world. But until now, who wakes up in the morning and goes about their day fastidiously preparing for a pandemic? The Chinese are not to blame. It could have started anywhere. Perhaps our next crisis will begin on the floor of pork slaughterhouses right here in the U.S.S.A. 

It's about time we all come up with some kind of disparaging epithet to apply to the droves of millenials and younger gen-Xer twats who, by my estimation, rank pretty high on the list of current deterrents to properly beat this disease.


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## Irwin (Mar 30, 2020)

TL Murphy said:


> I had an incident two days ago where I was biking up a road that's closed to cars but open to pedestrians. The road is wide enough for parties of three to pass with at least 3 metres between them. But it's a mountain road with  steep cliffs on both sides, so no way to step off the road. There was hardly anyone on the road.  I came up to a group of 3 hikers in their late 20s to early 30s who were sprawled across the middle of the road leaving me only a couple of feet on either side to pass.  I stopped and asked them to move to one side so I could all pass safely.  The were seriously offended and at first refused to move.  I said "don't be a dick, there's lots of room. Right? Just move over and let me pass."  Eventually they did but not without hurling insults at me. This incident has tainted my normally tolerant attitude toward people in general.



I had something similar to that happen to me several years ago when I was walking through the entertainment section of downtown. Four women approached from the other direction. I was already walking close to the buildings, leaving plenty of room for passersby, but I moved over even more. One of the women was walking right towards me and nearly walked into me when I stopped and told her, "I can't move over any more." She gave me a look like I had offended her, somehow.  WTF?


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## KenTR (Mar 30, 2020)

I have a decontamination zone in my spare bedroom for anything I bring into the apartment. The last cardboard box I scrubbed for thirty seconds with soap and warm water didn't fare so well. 

I've also considerably stepped up my consumption of immunity boosting foods, namely raw garlic, yogurt, and as much as I hate them, mushrooms. I'm living in an coronavirus epicenter, cases are soaring, and I'm wondering how less likely it is that I will remain uninfected. 

As a precaution, I have refrained from touching everybody's avatars.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Mar 30, 2020)

It's finally happened. Maryland is now under a stay at home order. I'm not sure how much good it will do (all non-essential businesses were shut down already). Maybe if the whole US went under a shutdown, it could be effective but I sense it's all too little too late.


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## Amnesiac (Mar 30, 2020)

They said that a mask and gloves were enough to go to the grocery store.

They lied. Everyone else was wearing clothes.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 30, 2020)

Foxee said:


> Taking shoes off when entering the house, leaving them at the door.


This is normal behaviour in my missus' house, the kids learned it about the time they learned to talk.


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## SueC (Mar 30, 2020)

dither said:


> SueC, I read somewhere that we should wash our hands after shopping, wash hands before unpacking the shopping, and then, wash hands before preparing food? A bit extreme? Who can say?



Dither! I know! Every times I touch something that isn't part of my body I wonder - what am I touching? We think it's extreme - yes. But you know those commercials for drugs, for example, where some voice-over says something like "if you are allergic to this drug or any part of this drug, do not take this drug." And I think - what? Why do people need to be told that? Then I began to realize that these crazy instructions come about when some goof has actually taken something they are allergic to because the voice-over man told them to take it. So, I think there are enough people who have contracted this virus that there may have been a situation where a pizza box came into a home and was ultimately blamed for the mother to have gotten the virus because she touched it without gloves and didn't wipe it down before accepting it. 

On the side of caution, the voice-over man now tells us that pizza boxes, cereal boxes, boxes from MikeyD's, Amazon boxes, all boxes MIGHT have that bugger on them so be careful you!!!

I'm making fun, but sheesh what a world.


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## SueC (Mar 30, 2020)

Amnesiac said:


> They said that a mask and gloves were enough to go to the grocery store.
> 
> They lied. Everyone else was wearing clothes.



This made me laugh out loud! Felt good.


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## KenTR (Mar 30, 2020)

[video=youtube;lr_tEdQvFcc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr_tEdQvFcc&amp;feature=youtu.be[/video]


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## velo (Mar 30, 2020)

Biro said:


> Oh really.  Words and people twisting them around?
> 
> The virus started in China and infected the world.  So it is a 'China virus' or may as well be called that.  Just as Irish stew comes originally from Ireland and French onion soup comes from.....wait for it.....somewhere in France originally.



The difference is that there is no negative connotation to French Onion  Soup.  Calling SARS-CoV-2 the "china virus" simply reeks of xenophobia  and finger-pointing.  Your argument overly simplifies the issues and is nothing more than a red herring.  


Biro said:


> The power of words?   I think the power of video showing what goes on in that country of question with animals is a lot more powerful and a hell of a lot more incentive to dislike those particular people if you are of such a persuasion.
> 
> Still if you can think of nicer words for barbecuing and skinning animals alive, torturing bears to extract more bile for some hairy fairy cure, or even eating bats and other creatures alive...........then you carry on with your powerful words.



You're on a writing forum disputing the power of words?  Seriously?  LOL 

Yes, the Chinese have a particular culture and a relationship with food that we in the West don't understand.  The Chinese cuisine, in this instance so-called "wet markets," is very different from how we do things in the West but neither one is right or better.  Honestly that's how everything used to be sold before the advent of refrigeration and large parts of the world still use markets of that type.  

Pigs and humans are biologically very similar and often share communicability between some pathogens.  If a virus had jumped from a pig in a Des Moines slaughterhouse would you call this the American virus?  I sincerely doubt it.  

THe words we use are powerful indicators of our inner thoughts.  Using the term "China virus" indicates a desire to allocate blame and create a sense of victim hood by the nefarious _other_.  I don't buy your arguments as they all as they ring clearly of sophistry.  How I read this is that you're pissed that this came from China because that reinforces your dislike of people that don't look/act/think like you.  

The virus is SARS-CoV-2 and the disease is COVID-19.  Why not use the proper terms?  You can't get any more accurate than that.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 30, 2020)

I know the Chinese eat almost everything edible, but they have a history that includes a cycle of famines in which millions of people regularly died. Previously fastidious people will eat other things when there is nothing else, in China it has happened regularly enough to become part of the culture, we are the lucky ones.


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## The Green Shield (Mar 30, 2020)

OK, so it's become clear to me that there's been a trend going on calling for us to all stay at home due to this pandemic going on. A sound strategy...except that not everyone can feel safe in their own home since they're victims of abuse and are basically being forced to stay home with their abuser.


Therefore, I propose that we spread awareness and contact our local governments to encourage those in abusive homes to seek shelter elsewhere, indeed even open up corona-shelters for anyone seeking shelter who don't exactly have a home to go to.


So in response to #StayTheFuckAtHome, I propose: #CoronaShelters. Not everyone has a home to get back to, and indeed, for some, that home is the source of their living nightmare.


So make this a trend -- let's contact our local governments and let them know.


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## velo (Mar 30, 2020)

As a former abused person who had to live with my abuser for nigh on a decade, I can certainly empathise.  But the realistic question is- how?  The system has an abysmal track record of even being able to identify people in these circumstances let alone having enough evidence to do anything about it.  It's an unfortunate reality that many of these people will only be freed from their abuser by either an unfortunate event or the simple passage of time.


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## dale (Mar 31, 2020)

there's always a silver lining. the best thing about the coronavirus? now stupid people wanna keep 6 feet away from me without me even telling them to.
plus all those people with cheating spouses finally get to keep their philanderer at home.


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## Gofa (Mar 31, 2020)

Cheating people thats an oh dear
when you have been defined as positive, you must tell of the people you have had close contact with

Imagine

Well both of the wife's sisters but not at the same time
ah their mother too but i was drunk at the time
ah yes also neighbor’s wife next door and across the road
and yes they were at the same time

excuse me nurse is this just the last 7 days 
Or do i need to keep going


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## Biro (Mar 31, 2020)

velo said:


> The difference is that there is no negative connotation to French Onion  Soup.  Calling SARS-CoV-2 the "china virus" simply reeks of xenophobia  and finger-pointing.  Your argument overly simplifies the issues and is nothing more than a red herring.
> 
> 
> You're on a writing forum disputing the power of words?  Seriously?  LOL



You can only relate to xenophobia if you want to look for it.  If you want to look for it then you will find it in every part of humans existence on this planet since they were able to string two of those 'words' you refer to so much together.  But then if some one goes looking for such things as racism and bigotry, I should imagine you would have to look for the reasons why?  



velo said:


> Yes, the Chinese have a particular culture and a relationship with food that we in the West don't understand.  The Chinese cuisine, in this instance so-called "wet markets," is very different from how we do things in the West but neither one is right or better.  Honestly that's how everything used to be sold before the advent of refrigeration and large parts of the world still use markets of that type.
> 
> Pigs and humans are biologically very similar and often share communicability between some pathogens.  If a virus had jumped from a pig in a Des Moines slaughterhouse would you call this the American virus?  I sincerely doubt it.
> 
> ...



I suppose this could be down to your 'words' again.   Dressing up blatent savage cruelty of a species of animals as a 'culture' must mean that we are all guilty of your xenophobia then since we in the west brought in various degrees of animal cruelty laws in the keeping of them and for the slaughter of them for food.  The reasons such laws and practices were bought in was because we regard ourselves as civilised and find cruelty abhorrent.  Therefore we must find those who practice such as repugnant and even criminal?

But regards slaughter and the consumption of their flesh and body parts.  There are huge reasons why the keeping, slaughter, consumption and disposal these animals and other animals is legalised in our countries.

One of the main reasons is that some diseases that animals can suffer from are zoonatic and transfer to other animals which includes us. As humans are nothing else but just another animal.   It is not just pigs as you refer too because you wrongly think that we are biologically similar to just them.  We are biologically similar to most animals and not just closer to a certain one.

Sheep will easily pass disease and parasites onto humans including viruses.  This will happen when they are alive or dead.  Same goes for cattle, pigs and of course as everybody knows poultry.

Apart from that all animals if not treated regularly will suffer from disease and a hell of a lot of parasites which will jump ship at first chance onto those other animals....humans.

Same goes for the consumption of human flesh.

Just one of the reasons we arent dropping like flies and relatively healthy considering.

Of course we could still entertain such safeguards, rules and regs and then still barbecue our animals alive and even skin them alive as well.  But we don't.  I suppose if someone said they are above such a thing and even better than those who do.  Then I wouldnt call anybody who thought like that racist or bigoted?

_'Why not use the proper terms? You can't get any more accurate than that'_   .................  Probable the same reason why we say ...........  German measles instead of Rubella ......... Asian flu instead of H5N1 ........... Spanish flu instead of H1N1 ................. and so on.   

There is even a modern very recent killer virus which is still killing today but came about before 2016.   It is very closely related to the China virus/Corona virus or COVID-19.  You may have heard of it?   MERS or MERS- Coronovirus?   I should imagine MERS is short for Middle East Respiratory Syndrome?  Another animal to human disease.

There are quite a few diseases named after countries and places.  Including American ones.  So not just negative connotations or red herrings?  Who do we point the finger at for xenophobia here?

Irish stew and French onion soup....you miss the humour.  But then if you don't like them you could be ???????????


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## Phil Istine (Mar 31, 2020)

The Green Shield said:


> OK, so it's become clear to me that there's been a trend going on calling for us to all stay at home due to this pandemic going on. A sound strategy...except that not everyone can feel safe in their own home since they're victims of abuse and are basically being forced to stay home with their abuser.
> 
> 
> Therefore, I propose that we spread awareness and contact our local governments to encourage those in abusive homes to seek shelter elsewhere, indeed even open up corona-shelters for anyone seeking shelter who don't exactly have a home to go to.
> ...



In the UK abuse victims are one of the exemptions from 'stay at home' instructions, but it took several days for this to be announced.  When government makes it up on the fly, there are bound to be situations that aren't catered for initially.


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## Biro (Mar 31, 2020)

velo said:


> I don't buy your arguments as they all as they ring clearly of sophistry.  How I read this is that you're pissed that this came from China because that reinforces your dislike of people that don't look/act/think like you.



I couldnt care less where this or any virus came from as long as it doesnt affect me or mine.  If a million Chinese or even Americans die of it.  It really makes no difference to me as long as me and mine are ok.  It makes no difference to me because I can do absolutely sod all about it.  So I try to concern myself to what is relevant to me.

_'reinforces your dislike of people that don't look/act/think like you'._  Actually I dislike others/people who try to tell me how I must think or what I must say.  That can be people who usually have religious or political leanings of some kind and some reason or another.

I dislike animal cruelty and what I see in China I find horrifying that any human has such low respect for animals and humans.  I fail to see why any normal person would want to go or have anything to do with such a place.  But I also realise it is not just limited to China and not all there are the same minded.

_I dislike people who do not look like me_.........They dont know how lucky they are!..........  I couldnt give a toss what anybody looks like as long as I dont have to kiss them whoever they are.......I just know I am the best looking person on the planet..........Actually I found as you get older if you do not look in the mirror then your looks never bother you.............Shaving is a bit hazardous though...........regards nationalities?  I really have no like or dislike for how they look or what colour anybody is.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 31, 2020)

Hey Biro, yes cultural. Here and now in our culture animal cruelty is seen as evil. Nelson's sailors and Wellington's soldiers would have regarded cock fighting, bear baiting and dog fighting as perfectly normal, as would every culture before them for a couple of thousand years in the West. Read Jack London and you will find dog fighting was pretty normal even in the early part of the last century. I remember seeing a Guardia in Spain draw a gun on a British tourist who was getting angry about him kicking a dog, he thought the tourist was completely mad, that was only the 1960's. In India if Hindus catch a dog it can be savage, that's today. It is only this culture at this time that sees it otherwise, historically and globally it is the norm.


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## Biro (Mar 31, 2020)

Olly Buckle said:


> Hey Biro, yes cultural. Here and now in our culture animal cruelty is seen as evil. Nelson's sailors and Wellington's soldiers would have regarded cock fighting, bear baiting and dog fighting as perfectly normal, as would every culture before them for a couple of thousand years in the West. Read Jack London and you will find dog fighting was pretty normal even in the early part of the last century. I remember seeing a Guardia in Spain draw a gun on a British tourist who was getting angry about him kicking a dog, he thought the tourist was completely mad, that was only the 1960's. In India if Hindus catch a dog it can be savage, that's today. It is only this culture at this time that sees it otherwise, historically and globally it is the norm.



On this point Olly and I dont want to dwell on it because it is not the topic.   You are correct.  But we changed because we realised it was wrong and also we learned that regards consumption of animals you are in danger of catching disease and parasites.  The rest in China and other places is history.  But this disease, Ebola and Mers are all assumed to have been caught from the consumption of animals in places where they do not practice husbandry and veterinary procedures as we do in the west.  There are possibly? diseases here that we could catch and be viral if we didnt practise such.


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## PiP (Mar 31, 2020)

*Please be aware that for more heated and in depth discussion on the Coronavirus we have Dante's Inferno. If you want to skin and then eat each other alive that is the place to do it.*


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## Gofa (Mar 31, 2020)

Haters Hate Biro and that in no way applies to you 

you named your self three times and its a charm

you are a disliker

awesome 

never met a disliker before 

if I like you and you dislike everything does that mean as with noise cancelling you just disappear

biro I like you 






Biro said:


> I couldnt care less where this or any virus came from as long as it doesnt affect me or mine.  If a million Chinese or even Americans die of it.  It really makes no difference to me as long as me and mine are ok.  It makes no difference to me because I can do absolutely sod all about it.  So I try to concern myself to what is relevant to me.
> 
> _'reinforces your dislike of people that don't look/act/think like you'._  Actually I dislike others/people who try to tell me how I must think or what I must say.  That can be people who usually have religious or political leanings of some kind and some reason or another.
> 
> ...


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## velo (Mar 31, 2020)

Biro said:


> we changed because we realised it was wrong



'Wrong' is a value judgment.  We did not realise it was wrong, we chose to think it's wrong.  These are two very different thought processes. 

We think of animal cruelty as wrong but this is not a universal view.  You are taking your view and projecting it on the rest of the world.  I am not supporting animal cruelty, just trying to illustrate that calling it 'wrong' is your subjective truth and is clearly not the same view held by the rest of the world.  

I think much of that has to do with modern food processing system which distances us from the animals that have to be slaughtered for our tasty meals.  I have birds in my backyard and some of my friends were horrified when, after deciding ducks were more trouble to keep than they were worth, I killed (as humanely as possible), processed, and ate them.  These same folks would have no issue eating duck or chicken at a restaurant and when I asked them what the difference is they all said almost exactly the same thing, that it is different if you _know_ the animal.  

While it actually is different, it's not different in the way they think because they've never had that intimate connection with what's on their plate.  They thought it was 'cruel' to eat the ducks even though they eat birds all the time that had much worse lives than the ones in my my backyard who lived like kings compared to birds grown for meat or eggs in the factory farms.  I also took great pains to slaughter them as painlessly and humanely as possible and much more so than any of the birds you see wrapped in cellophane at the store.  Again, cruelty itself is merely a viewpoint.  




Biro said:


> also we learned that regards consumption of animals you are in danger of catching disease and parasites.



Refrigeration is the real game changer here.  But it wasn't about diseases, it was about storage and convenience.  When home refrigeration became widespread we also saw the rise of the supermarket.  People could buy meat for a week instead of a day or two.  Until the idea of the icebox in the early 20th century, most people did not have access to any sort of temperature based food preservation techniques and keeping fresh meat for long periods simply wan't possible.  



Biro said:


> Mers are all assumed to have been caught from the consumption of animals in places where they do not practice husbandry and veterinary procedures as we do in the west.



Husbandry and veterinary practices would not have stopped MERS-CoV from spreading.  It's transmitted by not cooking camel meat properly and drinking raw milk as you allude to.  Even so- "Even camel abattoir workers who are exposed daily to animals who are regularly shedding MERS-CoV are not uniformly infected and rarely get overt disease. Hardly any of the patients diagnosed with MERS so far, are workers in these high risk occupations."  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4749478/

There is also significant evidence that camels are not the only major repository of the virus but that another, unidentified population (possibly asymptomatic humans) is another primary vector of transmission.  ref- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4749478/

This research ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4073860/  ) indicates that symptoms in dromedaries are very mild, even in young camels which are impacted more heavily than adults by MERS-CoV.  In terms of husbandry, if something isn't a danger to your herd why, prior to the jump between species, would anyone worry about it?  The answer is simple, they wouldn't.  

I'm sorry, Biro, but the massive leaps and assumptions you take in your proclamations seem more about blame than fact.  I'm not about to blame someone simply doing what they've known all their life.  Is this an opportunity for education and perhaps engaging with some better food handling practices?  Sure.  But getting bent out of shape about what someone who likely did not know any better half the globe away is a complete waste of time and energy.  Let's move forward from this and learn the right lessons and not waste time pointing fingers.  

Yet much of the science says that this isn't the last one and as the human population spreads farther and farther and becomes more interconnected pandemics will be coming more and more frequently.  Read anything from the last 20-30 years in the infectious disease field and you'll see that this was all predicted.


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## Biro (Mar 31, 2020)

velo said:


> 'Wrong' is a value judgment.  We did not realise it was wrong, we chose to think it's wrong.  These are two very different thought processes.
> 
> We think of animal cruelty as wrong but this is not a universal view.  You are taking your view and projecting it on the rest of the world.  I am not supporting animal cruelty, just trying to illustrate that calling it 'wrong' is your subjective truth and is clearly not the same view held by the rest of the world.
> 
> ...



I am afraid you are unintentionally muddling some of my points.  What and why I dislike a country and what goes on there is not really relevant to the topic and I only clarified it because you thought I was in some way against those people for 'other' reasons.  Whether we realised or choose to think it is wrong is also not relevent.  Do I think it makes me and others who think same and similar better human beings than others?  I think yes.  Does that make me racist?  I think no but others may disagree but it is my right to think what I want.   But again all this irrelevant and just doting the 'I's' and crossing the 'T's'. 

The rest of your post......

Refrigeration wasn't and isn't the reason diseases do not cross from farm animals.  It is because they are treated while on the farm and inspected on slaughter etc.  Farm workers still get infected with mild very contagious diseases and viruses.  Ringworm is a very common one and Orf is another and I believe some like Looping Ill and Lymne disease are only just being discovered.  But again not relevant.

Back on track and on topic.

Diseases whether in these cases past on from animals or just first occurred/discovered like Bird Flu, Corona/China virus, Asian flu, Mars virus, Zaire ebola, were called such because of those reasons and not for any racist reasons.  In fact I would say if anybody else but one man had said it (he wasn't the first) then it wouldn't even be a talking point.  But now it is by some.

The virus as far as everybody knows (except for some) started in Chinese markets or possibly from a nearby lab (according to some reports).  Does China deny it started there?  I heard they tried to blame others at one time.  But then it is in their interest to do such (business and finance).


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## velo (Mar 31, 2020)

I think it comes down to this- there is an inherent reason why a person would refer to SARS-CoV-2 as the "china virus" vs the proper nomenclature or even something more generic like 'coronavirus.'  All we can do is speculate but that choice leads is down certain roads which is what we've been discussing.  

We're writers, we understand words and how they work.  If you want to call it 'China virus' and focus on the fact that it came from China, something that no one disputes, that's your choice and right.  We are simply left to wonder why that particular piece of information is so significant for you.


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## Biro (Mar 31, 2020)

velo said:


> I think it comes down to this- there is an inherent reason why a person would refer to SARS-CoV-2 as the "china virus" vs the proper nomenclature or even something more generic like 'coronavirus.'  All we can do is speculate but that choice leads is down certain roads which is what we've been discussing.
> 
> We're writers, we understand words and how they work.  If you want to call it 'China virus' and focus on the fact that it came from China, something that no one disputes, that's your choice and right.  We are simply left to wonder why that particular piece of information is so significant for you.



No its not what 'I' want to call it.  It's what others want to call it or what it may be called.  I have no idea why other virus's and diseases were called after places.  I can only assume that they were for a reason other than being racist.   I think if anybody else had called this one a China virus then nobody would have took the slightest interest at all.  But one man repeated it and the world goes nuts.


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## velo (Mar 31, 2020)

If you look at MERS the only other major outbreak I'm aware of was South Korea and that was from someone traveling from the Middle East.  Because of the low human communicability and it coming from camels which mostly live in the Middle East, it truly is a regional issue and remains so to this day.  SARS-CoV-2 is a global issue.


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## Biro (Mar 31, 2020)

Well there must be some reason why all have traced it back to one area in China.  They cant all be wrong.


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## PiP (Mar 31, 2020)

Why does it matter: China virus, Spanish flu, SARS or whatever?!!! Let's not get bent out of shape over what?

For goodness sake, people are dying across the world, the global economy has taken a nosedive and there will be mass poverty as many companies will never reopen. The governments are making promises re financial support that they are yet to fulfill ... I can't even begin to imagine the heartache for the poor families in Italy and Spain (worst affected so far) who have lost, and are still losing, their loved ones as the crisis escalates. Please, I beg you, just pause for a moment to consider the exhausted healthcare professionals who are on the front line EVERY day without adequate protection. The delivery drivers who deliver essentials and the staff at supermarkets etc. etc. And we are arguing about what to call the virus. Unbelievable!!

The worst is yet to come. We are only seeing the tip of the iceberg  ... 

Who knew a humble food market in Chinese city of Wuhan would bring the world to its knees. There's me thinking the end of the world* as we know it* would be an alien invasion or another World War... or whatever.


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## velo (Mar 31, 2020)

Biro said:


> Well there must be some reason why all have traced it back to one area in China.  They cant all be wrong.



That's not the point, no one is denying the origin.  

There is no geo-political conspiracy to name  viruses. It wasn't called the China virus, I am guessing based on evidence,  because it is not limited to China, whereas MERS is primarily a disease  in the Middle East.  

The point you seem not to get is that  forcing the issue and calling it the 'China virus' reeks of personal  bias to many of us. You can try to argue around it but my observation  hasn't changed.  Honestly,a big piece of evidence is the energy you seem  to be putting into denying that.


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## Biro (Mar 31, 2020)

velo said:


> That's not the point, no one is denying the origin.
> 
> There is no geo-political conspiracy to name  viruses. It wasn't called the China virus, I am guess based on evidence,  because it is not limited to China, whereas MERS is primarily a disease  in the Middle East.
> 
> The point you seem not to get is that  forcing the issue and calling it the 'China virus' reeks of personal  bias to many of us. You can try to argue around it but my observation  hasn't changed.  Honestly,a big piece of evidence is the energy you seem  to be putting into denying that.



No my point is and always has been if you go back is where we are told we cant say this or think that because we are being something we never were or intended to be.  After all if it was down to being racist I am sure even the meekest of us could come up with something far more vindictive if we wanted to.


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## velo (Mar 31, 2020)

I never said you cannot or should not say it one way or another.  I've just been discussing your choices and wondering about them.  As far as that goes, I have nothing more to say on the matter as I think the deceased equine has been well-pummeled.  Peace.


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## Firemajic (Mar 31, 2020)

PiP said:


> Why does it matter: China virus, Spanish flu, SARS or whatever?!!! Let's not get bent out of shape over what?
> 
> For goodness sake, people are dying across the world, the global economy has taken a nosedive and there will be mass poverty as many companies will never reopen. The governments are making promises re financial support that they are yet to fulfill ... I can't even begin to imagine the heartache for the poor families in Italy and Spain (worst affected so far) who have lost, and are still losing, their loved ones as the crisis escalates. Please, I beg you, just pause for a moment to consider the exhausted healthcare professionals who are on the front line EVERY day without adequate protection. The delivery drivers who deliver essentials and the staff at supermarkets etc. etc. And we are arguing about what to call the virus. Unbelievable!!
> 
> ...




AHHHHMEN! I agree.... You will NOT give a flyin' $#*! Where it came from, if one of your loved one's is dying, in desperate need of medical attention, and there is none... 

and you will NOT give a flyin' $#@% what percent of what population it hits the hardest... if one of your loved one's die.... it will be a 100 percent loss to you...


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## H.Brown (Mar 31, 2020)

I think in times like these it is not a case of blame but on how we can all help to beat this virus or atleast minimise its effects as best we can.

We can play the blame game over and over but it won't help anyone or change anything. Who cares where it originated from, we should be caring about how we can help to slow or stop it. (IMO)


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## Irwin (Mar 31, 2020)

“If we have between 100,000 and 200,000 [deaths from the coronavirus], we’ve all together done a very good job.”
~ Donald J. Trump

To a normal human being, even one death is too many.


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## H.Brown (Mar 31, 2020)

Irwin said:


> “If we have between 100,000 and 200,000 [deaths from the coronavirus], we’ve all together done a very good job.”
> ~ Donald J. Trump
> 
> To a normal human being, even one death is too many.



With something this bad deaths will be inevitable unfortunately, we have no cure for this virus. Limiting the damage is all we can do. Leaders can not sugar coat things, they have a role to appear strong and spin everything in a positive way to stop panic. I am in no way saying that Trump is correct with this statement, but it is also very easy to cast doubt or to argue what should be done whe  it is someone else having to make these decisions I think.


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## PiP (Mar 31, 2020)

ENOUGH! This thread is locked for 24 hours. Now take it to Dante's.


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