# Is sex completely unnecessary in fiction novels?



## theoddone (Aug 22, 2014)

I hope this is not a silly question; however, it is something that has been bothering me for a while now.

A fiction novel I have been working on for many years definitely crosses the "mature" line with its graphic violence, intense emotional scenes, and horrid acts of human nature _(child abuse, animal abuse, etc)_. I have never been conflicted about writing about sensitive topics in a graphic nature because I believe it both matches my style and personality; plus, with the nature of my novel's plot, it would be very pathetic and unfair to tone everything down... Something I have battled with, however, is whether or not to put sex in the novel.

I suppose I am conflicted because I am torn between two thoughts: 1. sex is another realistic part of human nature and it would allow my readers to connect more deeply with the characters.... 2. putting sex in my story may stray readers away because sex does not always help readers connect, but may stray many of them away and sex does not always make a story better, but may be poorly placed or unnecessary....

So, I want to hear your opinions. Thank you!


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## tabasco5 (Aug 22, 2014)

I skip it when it comes across in stories I read, but write your story how it needs to be written.  Put it in there if the story needs it, but I wouldn't recommend just adding it to add it.


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## popsprocket (Aug 22, 2014)

It's more a case of 'does it add anything'. And, yes, it's quite possible that a sex scene adds something to a book. But if it's just sex for the sake of sex then it's probably not worth adding.


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## No Cat No Cradle (Aug 23, 2014)

Well, I get it being in a book but mostly I prefer it being left to a quick mention "There was sex!" then move on unless the description delivers character details such as awkwardness, over controlling, maybe anger, etc but I do not count "being good at the sex" as a good enough character trait lol


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## T.S.Bowman (Aug 23, 2014)

Even sex for the sake of something OTHER than sex is usually not necessary. In a book like the one mentioned above, I'm not sure that putting it in there would make the read any more compelling. Even if it's supposed to add "realism" to the humans, there is enough realism with all the other stuff mentioned. 

If the author truly feels that it adds to the story, then have at it. 

But, like tabasco, I always skip over those scenes in whatever it is I am reading. I have yet to read a story where the insertion of scenes of that nature made me feel any closer to the characters. And i certainly haven't felt that such scenes add much of anything to the story itself.

That is my own personal opinion, of course.


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## theoddone (Aug 23, 2014)

So, if I were to do such scenes, make 'em short, not so descriptive, subtle, and not something that tears away from the story. That actually sounds much better. I wanted the story to have a lot of romantic stress, especially between the teenage characters, so I felt it was important to bring sex into the story.


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## T.S.Bowman (Aug 23, 2014)

It's not. 

You can have plenty of "romantic stress" without having any sex at all.

The "romantic stress" you mention is probably what I am thinking of as "romantic tension". You can accomplish that without having to resort (my opinion) to sex scenes.

Will they??

Won't they??

That, when done correctly, makes for a far better read.

Again...only my opinion.

Like pops indicated, though, the scene had better have something to add to the story itself. If not, then there is no real reason to put the scene there in the first place.


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## escorial (Aug 23, 2014)

for me Richard Yates can express the emotions and actions so well..sometimes gently and others directly..works well in his stuff.. The Easter Parade would be his most provocative book


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## T.S.Bowman (Aug 23, 2014)

A lot of people would consider me a "stick in the mud" because I will not inject my work with sex. 

Maybe I am. 

But I have yet to read a story, Easter Parade (although it's been quite a while) included, that really _needed_ that type of scene.


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## shadowwalker (Aug 23, 2014)

Including sex scenes is a decision that should, IMHO, be determined by what it brings to the story. It can be short or long, subtle or detailed - that's up to you, the author, to decide. Personally, I don't want to read "Insert Tab A into Slot B" style scenes, or one that uses euphemisms (most of which are laughable if not plain stupid). But sex scenes can bring a lot of depth and understanding of the characters, especially if you emphasize the emotional versus the physical during the scene. You just have to accept, like many other things in writing, that some people won't like them and others will. The decision should be based on the story alone.


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## Caragula (Aug 23, 2014)

They're so hard to write that it's often better not to have them, and I think that's because the act is a powerful, primal thing, and one's response to it is disproportionately strong to the reaction one is having to the prose in general.  I'm probably oversimplifying but in a novel you're engaging your imagination and going through the emotions with the characters, but then they have sex and I think the imagination then triggers a whole lot of other stuff in your brain, and if it's not working on the page, the rejection of it is disproportionately strong.


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## shadowwalker (Aug 23, 2014)

Caragula said:


> They're so hard to write that it's often better not to have them



I'd agree with your statement except for this part. A lot of writing is very hard - sex, romance, fights, humor, etc. That doesn't mean one should just not include them. It means one has to work a little harder to get them right.


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## Sam (Aug 23, 2014)

No, but I'd say it's entirely unnecessary outside of most genres other than romance. It's not the sex scenes themselves that are the problem, but the fact that they don't make sense in the context of the novel. For instance, the last thriller I read was about a man and a woman who'd just met and were forced to go on the run from a hitman hired to kill the woman. By page 100, they were tearing each other's clothes off, with no regard for their own safety, while armed with the knowledge that the hitman had found them twice without fail and could easily track them down a third time. Yet, they thought it prudent to have sex and leave themselves completely vulnerable. That's a huge inconsistency with what came before, when the man outwitted the hitman and escaped. The narrator refers to him as a clever man. I found that hard to believe after page 101. 

That's the problem with sex scenes. They're often used in the wrong way and for the wrong reasons.


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## Jeko (Aug 23, 2014)

> I suppose I am conflicted because I am torn between two thoughts: 1. sex is another realistic part of human nature and it would allow my readers to connect more deeply with the characters.... 2. putting sex in my story may stray readers away because sex does not always help readers connect, but may stray many of them away and sex does not always make a story better, but may be poorly placed or unnecessary....



If you're going to follow 1), then you should also include your characters going to the toilet, since that is an even more realistic part of human nature; the need to empty your bowls. Of course, it would get in the way of the story if you wrote when each character did their business each day for the whole novel. But you could have an important moment that involves a character being on the loo - perhaps they get assassinated by a bomb in the cistern, and it's tragic because they couldn't avoid needing to poo and they had nowhere else to do it, which explains why the assassin chose the method.

I feel the same way about sex scenes. Unless you're writing pornography and trying to get your readers 'in the mood' for something, they should be used and handled in ways that are important to the story. They shouldn't be put in just because they evoke the natural side of life.

Personally, I prefer it when writers 'close the door' on sex, because that feels more natural than showing all the bits and where they're going. Sex is a private thing (or it should be, IMO), so if the characters are given a kind of privacy in the narrative, the narrator appears more normal to me. Alternatively, if they throw all the extraneous sex in the reader's face (for the purpose of making it feel sexual), the narrator often comes across, in my mind, as perverted.


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## bazz cargo (Aug 23, 2014)

Hi Odd,
some people like to read sex scenes, some do not, it depends on how well you write them and the market you are aiming for.

This is your own creative decision and if it ever gets to the attention of an agent or publisher they will soon let you know which makes most sense in saleability. 

Good luck
Bazz


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## InstituteMan (Aug 23, 2014)

I will speak up for a good sex scene *that actually advances some aspect of the story*. It doesn't belong if it doesn't advance plot or character development, but if it does either of those then it goes in and I just have to figure out how to write it, in my opinion. And if I encounter such a scene when I am reading, I certainly don't skip it (but I do get frustrated by pointless scenes of any variety, and you don't know what those are until the end, often).

An epic saving the world story may not require sex. A saving yourself story or a finding yourself story may very well require a fair bit of sex, perhaps on a trajectory that changes over the story. A finding romantic love story had bettered at least end with sex, based on my own view of romantic love, anyway.

Write the story you have, and write only the story you have.


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## Kyle R (Aug 23, 2014)

Kelley Armstrong, a bestselling Urban Fantasy author, usually has one steamy sex scene in each of her novels.

Three of James Cameron's biggest films (_Avatar, Titanic, The Terminator_) each has a sex scene in them. He also did a "scriptment" (his word) of Spider-Man and wrote a sex scene for Peter and MaryJane. 

Some writers like to use sex scenes and a lot of readers like to read them. Like Bazz said, it depends on the genre, the audience, and the market.

Many _Twilight_ fans were disappointed by Stephenie Meyer's decision to close the door on Edward and Bella when they finally made love in _​Breaking Dawn_. The story had built up (for several books) to this passionately charged moment, only to have the author skip over it completely (not even a modicum of foreplay) to the next morning.

In a case like Meyer's, where much of the story has _set up_ an expectation of physical intimacy between two characters, the logically consistent move would be to _pay off_ the reader with the sex scene they've been implicitly promised.

Or, perhaps another way of putting it: the story called for it.

So, like others said here, do what you feel serves the story best. If you think putting sex in is what's needed, go for it! A lot of readers love getting turned on, especially if it involves characters they love. We're human after all, right? But if the sex would be out of place, illogical, or unintentionally awkward, maybe closing the door on it, or not having it at all, would be the better choice.

:encouragement:


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## Deleted member 56686 (Aug 23, 2014)

For me if my characters are having relations I pretty much keep it simple. I'd probably say something like they slept together and then move on. But that's me. Different writers will write different things and that's okay. Is sex completely unnecessary? It can be but it also depends on the book.


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## Bishop (Aug 23, 2014)

Almost everyone above me has given the best of advice, in that it needs to advance character, or better yet, plot. It needs to be on the side of character perception over the acts (my opinion, I suppose), rather than just plain acts. It needs to tell the reader something, not just show them the beast with two backs. As Sam said, it's a completely different side of the coin in Romance and, obviously, Erotica. 

I mostly use the closed door method, with one exception. In one of my novels, a character is going through a biological change (oh, she's an alien, by the way) where her body is driving her toward lust, to the extreme of violence, in a biological imperative to reproduce. In the book, it deeply affects her actions, particularly her aggression toward her significant other who is unaware of the condition and watches her slowly turn hyper aggressive and dominant. In this case, his realization of her building violent tendencies called for a glimpse of the sex itself, but even in this context, the scene I wrote was three paragraphs long and focused more on what he was seeing/feeling than the acts themselves.


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## LeeC (Aug 23, 2014)

It's dependent on the storyline and effect you're going for, mostly what audience you're aiming at. Pretty obvious when you see the interest generated here  

I don't see explicit sex or violence as defining attributes of literature, but I do see such commonly where the writer is in need of a catalyst for attention and/or material gain. Of course there are books like Lady Chatterley's Lover which have been played up as having redeeming social value, so many things are justified in our subjective, hormone induced perspectives. I've even seen justification of the film Deep Throat as an innovative comedy, when its inception was to make its gangster backers filthy rich.

So I guess what it boils down to is your own writing skills, proclivities, and objectives 

So endth today's sermon,
LeeC


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## E. Zamora (Aug 23, 2014)

The moments before and after are often the most revealing. I think most of know what goes on in between.


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## Folcro (Aug 23, 2014)

E. Zamora said:


> The moments before and after are often the most revealing. I think most of know what goes on in between.



This.

I for one have never experienced a sex scene that not only added something, but did NOT take away from the sexual _tension_ that I was up to that point enjoying. (And this goes with any medium, not just writing).

The sex scene in my latest novel was probably the hottest one ever. The scene went: "He took off his tank top and joined her in the tent." 

It was my goal, as it is my belief, that the tension between these two characters up to this point of the story was good enough for the reader to construct their own scene, which is always going to be hotter (not to mention personalized) than anything I'm going to put into a story that bears my name. Had I gone all out as it were, I feel any reader with more than a few brain cells would say "well... yeah, this is what sex is... You've definitely made your point. Can we get back to the things I _don't _know are going to happen now?"


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## InstituteMan (Aug 23, 2014)

There are currently 8 users browsing this thread, a number confirming my belief that sex is an important part of many stories. People are interested in it because it hooks into powerful parts of our psyche. Entirely omit sex from your story at your peril, but tack it on gratuitously at your peril as well.


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## shadowwalker (Aug 23, 2014)

I think some people miss an important point of sex scenes. It doesn't _have _to be about arousal or titillation of the reader. It doesn't _have _to be about the actual act, even if that is included. Sex scenes can get into the psyche of the characters more deeply than just about any other type of scene. Where else are two people so vulnerable to each other? Where else can the writer get so deeply into the characters' minds without going philosophical or without the whole exposition thing? When used appropriately and not just stuck in for that titillation, a sex scene can be one of the most powerful tools for character development.


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## Morkonan (Aug 23, 2014)

theoddone said:


> ...So, I want to hear your opinions. Thank you!



Aha! An "Action Scene!" I need to demonstrate and choreograph this conflict and drama! This is one of the building points to my plot! The antagonist's will will be tested and he will experience "loss", which drives him even further. So, this action scene, complete with 'splosions and splatter is just the thing!

Abandoned and on his own, the hero must be shown to come to not only understand himself, but learn to rely on his strengths. Along the way, he'll come to a deeper understanding of what is truly meaningful in life. I know, he'll get marooned on an island! He'll build a raft for fishing! He'll fall in love with a beach-ball! 

Betrayal! Yes, the heroine's best friend will betray her! She'll need this pain in order to "grow", later in the story. Hmm, I know - The friend will seduce the husband! Brilliant! He'll be drunk, in order to divert a lot of the blame. We'll have them get together after a party and the husband will be upset, since his wife was too busy sucking up to her boss to pay him much attention... There will be a scene in the back room, where all the coats are... and some brief, but thoroughly raunchy, sex, just to drive the betrayal home.


...

In short - What is your purpose? What are you writing? Do you need graphic sex in your story? Or, are you simply concerned that your Readers will be expected to be "titillated" by some? If you are not writing your "sex" scene for a purpose related to elements of your story or the experience that you are presenting, then you're simply writing it for titillation value and that is called "porn." It's not likely that your Readers, given what you have described, bought your book for its "pornographic" value. So, unless you have a specific reason that you're going to use a graphic sex scene, there's no point in putting one in your story.

Just like with anything else, if there is no reason to put it in, don't put it in. In my opinion,  trying to be "realistic" (And, I really don't have any clue what you mean by that...) is not a sufficient reason for a graphic sex scene anymore than it's a viable reason for any other "inclusion" in a story. Everything in your story needs to serve a purpose and, I agree, that "could" be realism. But, it's just not necessary for you to write a graphic sex scene in order to be "realistic" unless there is something about that scene that you need to have in your book.

An example:

In "Lord Foul's Bane", the first book in Donaldson's "Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever" series, there's a somewhat graphic rape scene. It's tame, by most standards, but for a Fantasy Book, it's pretty heavy. However, it's written well and it comes off being much more intense, in its translation, than it is on the actual written page. But, why? Why put in this sort of thing when all that is necessary to tell the Reader is that Covenant rapes a young girl? Violation, that's the answer. The Reader can not be drawn into the theme of "Violation" without this somewhat graphic rape scene. The Reader can not experience the emotional impact of this act and how it effects the lives connected with it without Donaldson going "just a little bit further" than some Fantasy writer's concsciences might allow.

Let's look at some general reasons why you might actually want a more graphic scene. For instance, let's suppose you want to develop greater intimacy between characters. Let's say you want to show both characters as vulnerable, yet willing to submit themselves to the other in succumbing to their desires or "true love." You may not be able to handle all of that with a "and they closed the door and the mattress squeaked for a little while." You may need to show the inner thoughts of these characters as they submit to each other. You may need to put this intimacy into terms that the Reader can quickly empathize with. (By the way, that's on reason why heavy sex-scenes with complex emotional involvement won't work very well with younger audiences - They have little frame of reference.) In this case, I would not only suggest you get more graphic, I'd encourage it, but only so long as you emphasized the character's experiences. If you just stuck with poles and boobs... Well, that wouldn't be acceptable and I'd point out that it was no more valuable to your work than porn.

Find a purpose. If there isn't one, don't write it. If there is one, be sure you're serving the purpose of your story. Don't worry about "realism" or "genre" or "theme" questions unless you're writing specifically with "sex" in mind. And, if you are, then you wouldn't be asking this question, would you?


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## T.S.Bowman (Aug 23, 2014)

Folcro said:


> It was my goal, as it is my belief, that the tension between these two characters up to this point of the story was good enough for the reader to construct their own scene, which is always going to be hotter (not to mention personalized) than anything I'm going to put into a story that bears my name. Had I gone all out as it were, I feel any reader with more than a few brain cells would say "well... yeah, this is what sex is... You've definitely made your point. Can we get back to the things I _don't _know are going to happen now?"



Exactly.

That is one of the main reasons I don't find any use for writing sex scenes and find them more tedious than anything else when I come ascross them in something that I am reading.


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## anthonyjmcgirr (Aug 23, 2014)

Sex in stories doesn't bother me too much if it has a point (as others have said).  Cheesy sex and love scenes are just overplayed and quite boring.  But there's no need for extremely graphic scenes unless that's your core audience who is expecting it.  Get on with the story already


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## Greimour (Aug 23, 2014)

To me, it either happens or it doesn't. Like in life. How you deal with it is what varies. A character can make note of two people sharing a tent, sneaking to each others rooms, being seen leaving the house in the early hours of morning... or it might have another purpose. You don't have to go all Fifty shades of Grey on the story... you can just make it known. Mostly it depends on the story but it also depends on the why. 

Whilst away I got badly sunburned and ended up reading two romance novels during a two day recovery period. Sex was in both but it was skimmed so lightly and easily that it really made no difference on the story. The authors could have easily had spicy sex scenes but they didn't. Conversation about sex appeared often but always passed over quickly. Seemed very genuine to me. I could have imagined it all being a true story. 

"John was better in the bed but Mike was better at everything out of it." 

Comments like that helped with understanding the woman in the story and what she was basing decisions on, etc. 

***

During the First LAw trilogy by Joe Abercrombie, there is a spontaneous and almost random sex scene. A genuine "one thing led to another" type of thing. Again it was brushed over quickly and a comment by another character made it known it didn't end with a single rumble in the hay. Still, the book stayed true to purpose and moved on accordingly. The sex was simply something that happened and so gained mention. It didn't turn into any form of erotica. 

**

My answer:

It happens or it doesn't. My characters are real to me and they do whatever they do. If they have sex, they have sex.. if they don't, they don't. Nothing more to it than that. I will never write erotica - my characters have privacy from the readers. 


~Kev.


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## Plasticweld (Aug 23, 2014)

My take on this is a little different.  If you take some of the most heighted human emotions, sex would be at the top of the list, I have always equated sex with food.  If you are well fed at home, you have no reason to dine out. 

In simplistic terms, if you have not eaten all day, almost everything you see will in one way or another remind you of food.  

If you are trying to make your characters seem real, then sex is as important as feeling hungry, fearing death, being cold or being exhausted.  Take any of the basics away and there is always a story  line. 

As a reader I want to know enough of the mechanics and enough of the desire for the to be story to be complete. 

I can not imagine reading about the best restaurants, the finest chiefs, the best atmosphere and then not find out what the food tasted like... Just my two cents


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## Jeko (Aug 24, 2014)

> A finding romantic love story had bettered at least end with sex, based on my own view of romantic love, anyway.



This reminded me of a quote from Greenblatt on Shakespeare's _Twelfth Night_: 'the plots’ promise will be realized offstage, in the marriage beds towards which they gesture'.

I think most romances will end with sex - but that doesn't mean the writer has to write it. Implying the couple's future activities may be even more interesting than watching them go at it in the epilogue.


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## Folcro (Aug 24, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> I think some people miss an important point of sex scenes. It doesn't _have _to be about arousal or titillation of the reader. It doesn't _have _to be about the actual act, even if that is included. Sex scenes can get into the psyche of the characters more deeply than just about any other type of scene. Where else are two people so vulnerable to each other? Where else can the writer get so deeply into the characters' minds without going philosophical or without the whole exposition thing? When used appropriately and not just stuck in for that titillation, a sex scene can be one of the most powerful tools for character development.



You make a good point, but what you're describing doesn't resonate in my mind as a "sex scene" inasmuch as a scene or description of minds while sex happens in the background without explicit description. The thing about books is that you can say "sex is happening" and technically you have a sex scene. What I mean by the term, and what I thought the OP meant, were those explicit descriptions.

 Perhaps I'll someday find an example of ingenious character development executed such that it could not have been without these details. Certainly open to enlightenment.


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## shadowwalker (Aug 24, 2014)

Folcro said:


> What I mean by the term, and what I thought the OP meant, were those explicit descriptions.



Actually, I think one could do both. Sex is a full person experience after all - mind and body. I think it would really interesting to see the contrasts and compliments of the two elements.


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## InstituteMan (Aug 24, 2014)

Folcro said:


> You make a good point, but what you're describing doesn't resonate in my mind as a "sex scene" inasmuch as a scene or description of minds while sex happens in the background without explicit description. The thing about books is that you can say "sex is happening" and technically you have a sex scene. What I mean by the term, and what I thought the OP meant, were those explicit descriptions.



At the risk of going all pretentious, some of the most explicit descriptions of sex aren't really about the sex, and some descriptions (of sex or other things) that seem tame on the surface are totally about sex. To paraphrase, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, but sometimes a cigar is not at all a cigar. While this kind of imagery and symbolism is more common in poetry than prose, it is certainly not unheard of even in prose the likes of us read and write.

In other words, the creepy and somewhat detailed rape scene I wrote to open a story I haven't shared on here (for obvious reasons) really, honest to goodness, isn't just about the sexual violence depicted. I may never really develop that one all the way because the line between being too obvious with symbolism and foreshadowing in the scene and being too off-putting is a fine one, and I want to be smackdab on it. I admire writers who pull it off.


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## Folcro (Aug 24, 2014)

InstituteMan said:


> sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, but sometimes a cigar is not at all a cigar.



Sometimes it's a penis.


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## Newman (Aug 24, 2014)

theoddone said:


> Is sex completely unnecessary in fiction novels?



Good sex is never unnecessary.

I think it adds spice.

And there's story purpose behind the romantic / sexual relationship.


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## Bishop (Aug 25, 2014)

Newman said:


> And there's story purpose behind the romantic / sexual relationship.



Not necessarily. I'm still scratching my head as to why a romantic subplot was put into some books and films.


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## Kyle R (Aug 25, 2014)

Bishop said:
			
		

> I'm still scratching my head as to why a romantic subplot was put into some books and films.



Sometimes the romantic subplot exists to teach the protagonist the thematic lesson.

Through the lover/best friend/business partner, the hero realizes and/or is told what they're doing wrong with their life.

Once the lesson is learned, they can then use this new way of thinking to conquer the external conflict. :encouragement:


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## Bishop (Aug 25, 2014)

Kyle R said:


> Sometimes the romantic subplot exists to teach the protagonist the thematic lesson.
> 
> Through the lover/best friend/business partner, the hero realizes and/or is told what they're doing wrong with their life.
> 
> Once the lesson is learned, they can then use this new way of thinking to conquer the external conflict. :encouragement:



True, but sometimes the subplot exists because a Hollywood fat cat said, "Hm. We should probably add a girl in there, you know, give it more appeal. We don't want a sausage fest."


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## Kyle R (Aug 25, 2014)

Sex sells.


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## Bishop (Aug 25, 2014)

Kyle R said:


> Sex sells.



Oh, there's no doubt about that. How many Scarlett Johansson movies have I seen that, were it not for her, I'd have 0 interest in? 

:-k It's at least 3.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Aug 25, 2014)

As with many aspects of writing, it's something that can theoretically be done well, but I have yet to see an actual example of such a success.


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## InstituteMan (Aug 25, 2014)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> As with many aspects of writing, it's something that can theoretically be done well, but I have yet to see an actual example of such a success.



For something currently popular, I think Martin does well in the Song of Ice and Fire books. You learn a lot about the characters in some of those scenes. 

While uncomfortable, the rape scenes in Lolita are very important (can I get an award for my grasp of the obvious?) and exquisitely executed. 

While obscure, I think Zelazny hit the ball out of the park in two sex scenes in Lord of Light (for those who read the book, Tak's stream of conscious coupling-fueled recollections of his father and Sam and Kali in the Pavilion of Silence).

I am sure that there are others, and I don't doubt that someone will either disagree with my evaluation of those scenes. They certainly vary in terms of how explicit they are.


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## Newman (Aug 25, 2014)

Bishop said:


> I'm still scratching my head as to why a romantic subplot was put into some books and films.



Such as?


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## Bishop (Aug 26, 2014)

Newman said:


> Such as?



Most recent one in my mind is the new Lone Ranger film. Terrible film for many reasons, but the love interest character (the only main female character) really could not have existed and the plot would actually improve and be far more straightforward. Then, near the end, she kisses him randomly, even though she's his dead brother's widow. It's built up a TINY bit at the very beginning of the story that at one time, eight years ago these two shared a crush, then suddenly, she's making out with him. Clearly injected because it was necessary to draw in... some crowd that cares about the 30 seconds of romance in a two and half hour movie...


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## Newman (Aug 26, 2014)

Bishop said:


> Most recent one in my mind is the new Lone Ranger film. Terrible film for many reasons, but the love interest character (the only main female character) really could not have existed and the plot would actually improve and be far more straightforward. Then, near the end, she kisses him randomly, even though she's his dead brother's widow. It's built up a TINY bit at the very beginning of the story that at one time, eight years ago these two shared a crush, then suddenly, she's making out with him. Clearly injected because it was necessary to draw in... some crowd that cares about the 30 seconds of romance in a two and half hour movie...



There's more to romantic coupling than you're seeing.

There's certainly more to it in that movie. There's a reason John and Dan are certain types of characters, why Rebecca's married to Dan even though she's got the hots for John, a reason they can't get together other than her being his sister-in-law, a reason the villain wants her too etc etc etc. 

You might also want to consider that that film was written by some of the best paid and knowledgeable screenwriters in the business.


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## CasMerlyn(R) (Aug 26, 2014)

theoddone said:


> I hope this is not a silly question; however, it is something that has been bothering me for a while now.
> 
> A fiction novel I have been working on for many years definitely crosses the "mature" line with its graphic violence, intense emotional scenes, and horrid acts of human nature _(child abuse, animal abuse, etc)_. I have never been conflicted about writing about sensitive topics in a graphic nature because I believe it both matches my style and personality; plus, with the nature of my novel's plot, it would be very pathetic and unfair to tone everything down... Something I have battled with, however, is whether or not to put sex in the novel.
> 
> ...




If there's a sex scene in a book I usually read it to get a chuckle and think to myself - what has this guy or gal (the author) being smoking... its either too cliche, too long or just a bunch of flailing limbs that makes you wonder if they're not trying to kill one another instead of a quick shag. 


Personally sex adds - and it doesn't even have to be anything in great "gory" detail. I mean, my friend wrote a noir detective book he ended one chapter with the couple going into the woman's apartment for "coffee" and opened the next chapter with them in bed naked the guy have a cig. Took two paragraphs... unless you're simple in the head it's obvious what happened. 


Now if its straight out smut ... write a porno and be happy. Fifty Shades of Boredom did wonders. 


Too much sex is too cliche and poor taste in my mind. Makes it seem like the author is making up for subpar writing / plot throughout the story with a couple of scenes. Might work for a bunch of hormonal teens but gets boring fast. 



However, I got to say... if you're uncomfortable with the idea don't put much bother into it. It'll show in your work. Or get someone more comfortable to write it & put them as a co author.


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## Folcro (Aug 26, 2014)

Newman said:


> You might also want to consider that that film was written by some of the best paid and knowledgeable screenwriters in the business.



Yeah, Bishop, have you considered that?


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## T.S.Bowman (Aug 26, 2014)

Folcro said:


> Yeah, Bishop, have you considered that?



I took it into consideration for about 15 minutes before I realized the movie was crap. LOL


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## sportourer1 (Aug 30, 2014)

I wonder why writers worry about sex scenes being distracting or upsetting for readers when no one seems to be that concerned about violence.


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## shadowwalker (Aug 30, 2014)

sportourer1 said:


> I wonder why writers worry about sex scenes being distracting or upsetting for readers when no one seems to be that concerned about violence.



Probably because for so long sex itself was portrayed as something only "bad people" even talked about. Really, it should be considered just like any other type of scene - does it add to the story (plot, characterization, etc) or is it just tossed in because it can be?


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## InstituteMan (Aug 30, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> Probably because for so long sex itself was portrayed as something only "bad people" even talked about. Really, it should be considered just like any other type of scene - does it add to the story (plot, characterization, etc) or is it just tossed in because it can be?



I have long wished our society could be puritanical about violence, which rarely has a place in the life of a healthy adult, and permissive about sex, which almost always has a place in the life of a healthy adult. I think that a lot of my own writing reflects this desire, with more implied or actual sex than violence. Personally, I find writing violence more distasteful than writing sex. I have to discipline myself to write the violence needed to advance the plot.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Aug 30, 2014)

sportourer1 said:


> I wonder why writers worry about sex scenes being distracting or upsetting for readers when no one seems to be that concerned about violence.



Simple.  Sex is something that, ideally, everyone will get to experience, and it's a very personal thing.  Violence, on the other hand, is something that ideally no one will have to experience.  Desensitization to violence is "alright" because, in a perfect world, no one's violent experiences will affect or be affected by those violent scenes (since they shouldn't have any).  With violence, you're supposed to be disengaged from the action.  With sex, that disengagement ruins it.

EDIT: InstituteMan, I saw you posted this just before I posted mine.



InstituteMan said:


> I have long wished our society could be puritanical about violence, which rarely has a place in the life of a healthy adult, and permissive about sex, which almost always has a place in the life of a healthy adult.



Interesting that we have identical premises yet have come to completely opposite conclusions.


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## InstituteMan (Aug 30, 2014)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> EDIT: InstituteMan, I saw you posted this just before I posted mine.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting that we have identical premises yet have come to completely opposite conclusions.



Indeed, Gamer. FWIW, I think that the different conclusions are reflected in both genre choices and the voice used within those genres, for both reading and writing. It's not so much that one is right and one is wrong as they are different.


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## ziodice (Aug 30, 2014)

I'm a bit late to the party, but personally I add it not when it adds to the story, but for if there's a reason for it to be there. This is because, in my opinion, sex is just a thing. Like going to the grocery store. It may not necessarily be important and add to the story, but I've not seen it subtract from one either. Of course, never put sex in simply for the sake of it, as stated, it needs a reason to be there.


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## shadowwalker (Aug 31, 2014)

ziodice said:


> I'm a bit late to the party, but personally I add it not when it adds to the story, but for if there's a reason for it to be there.



Isn't that the same thing? If it adds to the story, there's a reason for it. If it doesn't add to the story, there's no reason for it.  ??


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## Poet of Gore (Aug 31, 2014)

sex is great in books. Check out stuff by Bret Easton Ellis or read Crash.

my book definitely has sex in it. there may be women mutating into mermaids, and tentacles, and penises which have taken the shape of prehistoric monstrous eels with sharp teeth and maybe some things so unsavory that they are actually pixelated.

nothing should be in a book if it is not needed. but people think about sex more than almost everything and it is what replenishes our species and people are obsessed with it. i mean, check out King's teen gangbang in It. Classic


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## Jeko (Aug 31, 2014)

> nothing should be in a book if it is not needed.



The problem with this is that nothing is needed in fiction; in fact, fiction itself is not needed. Of course, certain things may be needed to make certain things in stories, but the things they're making will never be completely necessary; we can survive without literature. So it has to come down to 'want'; what the characters, readers, writers, publishers, gods, etc. want. Fiction adds value to our lives; so, it's about what we want to add.

I, for one, do not want to read or write an accurate portrayal of mankind's obsession with sex. I'm all too familiar with that in the real world; perhaps I read fiction to get away from it. And if you're not writing sex for insight, and you're not writing it for the plot, then you're writing pornography. And I for one don't want to read that either.


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## shadowwalker (Aug 31, 2014)

Cadence said:


> The problem with this is that nothing is needed in fiction; in fact, fiction itself is not needed.



I disagree with both ideas. 

If one pre-supposes that fiction is not needed, then no, nothing is needed in fiction because there's no need for anyone to read it. But fiction _is _needed. Many many ideas and innovations and reforms in the real world came because they were first discussed in fiction. Fiction allows the imagination to run wild, and lets the "What if?" extend way beyond the book covers. If nothing else, it may just allow some stressed out person to relax a little and face the next obstacle more calmly. So fiction is needed, and every piece of fiction needs that spark to get and keep the reader interested. If you put things into your fiction that aren't needed, you bore the reader and the book doesn't get read. If you pay attention to what is needed, to keeping that spark, then it is read, and who knows what may come of that?


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## T.S.Bowman (Aug 31, 2014)

Poet of Gore said:


> ...but people think about sex more than almost everything and it is what replenishes our species and people are obsessed with it. i mean, _*check out King's teen gangbang in*_ It. Classic



If that is what you took that scene to be, I understand why you would think sex is so necessary in your work.

The fact that people think so much about sex is exactly why it's not a totally necessary part of a good piece of fiction. Mankind's obsession with sex doesn't need to be pointed out by more people than already do. 

If a person wants to read about sex (and why someone would rather that than just having sex is beyond me) there are plenty of sources where they can find it. I'm pretty sure just about every romance novel has a set of "heaving breasts" in there somewhere. That genre lends itself to sex scenes for obvious reasons.

My work is perfectly fine without that kind of thing, though.

It's up to the writer whether or not sex "belongs" in their work. But they really shouldn't be surprised if the reader's eyes sort of glaze over when they come upon those scenes.


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## shadowwalker (Aug 31, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> It's up to the writer whether or not sex "belongs" in their work. But they really shouldn't be surprised if the reader's eyes sort of glaze over when they come upon those scenes.



That's akin to saying don't write prologues because readers will skip it. If a reader's eyes glaze over at _any _scene, it either wasn't needed or was written badly.


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## Jeko (Aug 31, 2014)

> But fiction _is needed. Many many ideas and innovations and reforms in the real world came because they were first discussed in fiction. Fiction allows the imagination to run wild, and lets the "What if?" extend way beyond the book covers._



I get what you're saying, but the development of mankind isn't needed either. If we're talking about survival, then art, as CS Lewis writes, 'has no survival value; rather it is one of those things which give value to survival.' So it's _wanted_, and all the reasons you wrote point to that fact, but it isn't needed.


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## shadowwalker (Aug 31, 2014)

Cadence said:


> I get what you're saying, but the development of mankind isn't needed either. If we're talking about survival, then art, as CS Lewis writes, 'has no survival value; rather it is one of those things which give value to survival.' So it's _wanted_, and all the reasons you wrote point to that fact, but it isn't needed.



Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree - because I definitely disagree.


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## ziodice (Aug 31, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> Isn't that the same thing? If it adds to the story, there's a reason for it. If it doesn't add to the story, there's no reason for it.  ??



Sort of. But like...sex doesn't necessarily "add to the story" in real life, it's just "there." If two people are in a relationship they're probably going to have sex but it wont necessarily add to anything. In many cases, it would be strange for there to NOT be sex.


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## Jeko (Aug 31, 2014)

> If two people are in a relationship they're probably going to have sex but it wont necessarily add to anything.



So you view sex in a relationship as meaningless?

Though I've yet to experience it, I think sex is one the most meaningful things a couple can do together.


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## InstituteMan (Aug 31, 2014)

Cadence said:


> So you view sex in a relationship as meaningless?
> 
> Though I've yet to experience it, I think sex is one the most meaningful things a couple can do together.



Oh, sex can be meaningful, but if it always HAS to be meaningful it won't happen very often, because that's just too much pressure. I've been married over 20 years. In that time I have learned that sex is fun and fun is good. And that's enough most of the time.


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## shadowwalker (Aug 31, 2014)

ziodice said:


> Sort of. But like...sex doesn't necessarily "add to the story" in real life, it's just "there." If two people are in a relationship they're probably going to have sex but it wont necessarily add to anything. In many cases, it would be strange for there to NOT be sex.



But we're not talking real life - we're talking fiction. In fiction, readers are very likely to be turned off the whole story if sex is "just there" for no reason. (I know I got extremely annoyed with a crime novel because the MCs were making out like rabbits, including when they were supposed to be rushing to the rescue!)


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## ziodice (Aug 31, 2014)

InstituteMan said:


> Oh, sex can be meaningful, but if it always HAS to be meaningful it won't happen very often, because that's just too much pressure. I've been married over 20 years. In that time I have learned that sex is fun and fun is good. And that's enough most of the time.


 This, this is roughly my point.


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## Poet of Gore (Aug 31, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> But we're not talking real life - we're talking fiction. In fiction, readers are very likely to be turned off the whole story if sex is "just there" for no reason. (I know I got extremely annoyed with a crime novel because the MCs were making out like rabbits, including when they were supposed to be rushing to the rescue!)



what people don't want is a blow by blow realistic sex scene. Which i agree with. But so much about a character can be said by it. Is the guy able to perform. is there something on his mind. I have a lot of sex scenes in what i am writing right now, but it is like stuff straight out of videodrome


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## Poet of Gore (Aug 31, 2014)

Cadence said:


> The problem with this is that nothing is needed in fiction; in fact, fiction itself is not needed. Of course, certain things may be needed to make certain things in stories, but the things they're making will never be completely necessary; we can survive without literature. So it has to come down to 'want'; what the characters, readers, writers, publishers, gods, etc. want. Fiction adds value to our lives; so, it's about what we want to add.
> 
> I, for one, do not want to read or write an accurate portrayal of mankind's obsession with sex. I'm all too familiar with that in the real world; perhaps I read fiction to get away from it. And if you're not writing sex for insight, and you're not writing it for the plot, then you're writing pornography. And I for one don't want to read that either.



maybe i was not clear. Nothing should be in a book if the story does not need it. Does this story lose something because this scene is not in it? i guess it is a bit more like editing. I always say a story is as long as it has to be.

When i am doing the final draft of this book, there will be nothing in it that does not need to be there. now things need to be there for a variety of reasons besides plot like character development or maybe even some statement you are trying to make.


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## T.S.Bowman (Sep 1, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> That's akin to saying don't write prologues because readers will skip it. If a reader's eyes glaze over at _any _scene, it either wasn't needed or was written badly.



Not necessarily. I have read many books where it seemed the author found those scenes "necessary" or "important" and I disagreed. Hence the glazed eyes. 

All it meant was that I, myself, didn't find the scenes integral to the story.


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## shadowwalker (Sep 1, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> All it meant was that I, myself, didn't find the scenes integral to the story.



Which is why it's like the prologue - there's a difference between personal preference and generalizing reader preferences. So the _writer _needs to determine whether the scene - any scene - is needed. Whether this reader or that reader agrees is beyond the writer's control.


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## T.S.Bowman (Sep 1, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> Which is why it's like the prologue - there's a difference between personal preference and generalizing reader preferences. So the _writer _needs to determine whether the scene - any scene - is needed. Whether this reader or that reader agrees is beyond the writer's control.



Right. And it would seem that those writers figured the scenes were needed.

I disagreed. Nothing more than a case of "some of the people some of the time."


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## Jeko (Sep 1, 2014)

> Oh, sex can be meaningful, but if it always HAS to be meaningful it won't happen very often, because that's just too much pressure.



I'd say the fact a couple regularly have sex is in itself meaningful, because if they weren't having sex, there would be a reason why. The fact that you only have sex with one person is also meaningful, because if you had sex with everyone you met on the street, you would have to not care who you slept with. But even if you did that,t hat would be meaningful. So it's not a matter of 'can be' or 'has to be' meaningful, IMO. Sex is meaningful, full stop. It always adds or supports something in a relationship; else, you wouldn't do it.


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## InstituteMan (Sep 1, 2014)

Cadence said:


> I'd say the fact a couple regularly have sex is in itself meaningful, because if they weren't having sex, there would be a reason why. The fact that you only have sex with one person is also meaningful, because if you had sex with everyone you met on the street, you would have to not care who you slept with. But even if you did that,t hat would be meaningful. So it's not a matter of 'can be' or 'has to be' meaningful, IMO. Sex is meaningful, full stop. It always adds or supports something in a relationship; else, you wouldn't do it.



I find it hard to get too sweeping in any generalization about sex, either in relationships or in fiction. 

There are just so many different versions of perfectly fine that I find it hard to throw down and say that something that makes sense for me has to make sense for someone else. Maybe after 20+ years of marriage an ongoing active sex life is meaningful, but maybe it is just one more thing that has to be done, kind of like doing the dishes and taking out the trash. Maybe each part of the couple views it differently. Maybe each has a friend with benefits on the side. Maybe, maybe, maybe; and all of those maybes have real flesh and blood emoting and thinking human beings living that maybe somewhere. Is that meaningful? Even if it is meaningful, is it good?

To me, the very fact that sex in real life can be so many different things and so complicated is precisely why it is a topic for fiction, practically _the _topic for fiction, at least as an undercurrent in more of the great works than I can rattle off here, and plenty of not so great works too. 

Now, many I respect as both writers and good people on here have taken a different point of view than I, and that is cool. I do think that we are drawing our lines around "sex" rather differently. Helen of Troy had a face that launched a thousand ships, but I don't think that those ships were launched because of some abstract analysis of the symmetry of her face; those ships were launched because she was hot, pure and simple. I haven't read a translation of the _Iliad_ (or any part thereof) in a long time, but to the best of my recollection there are not any "sex scenes" in it, other than how the entire thing is sort of an abstract sex scene initiated by a desire for sex.

For me in my writing and reading life, I have trouble seeing how to draw the line between "sex scene" and "sexual symbolism" and "sexual subtext" and "typical sexual motivation for characters." It all sloshes together for me. I would rather make the inevitable judgments about writing based upon quality rather than content, at least by and large (I know that there are a few works that I would reject out of hand based upon content, but I won't take the discussion down that rabbit hole). 

If the story involves a "heaving bosom," that is probably not a good sign, because that phrasing is such a cliche. On the other hand, satire could make excellent use of lots and lots of "heaving bosoms" and other cliches. A pure pulp fiction read (at least of the sort I used to devour) will usually have at least one bit of sex in it for the same reason it has chase scenes and fight scenes and a puzzle to figure out: some people find that stuff is fun to read about (my personal favorite examples of this are the old Bond novels). Or go all literary and use sex as a metaphor for something else, or use something else as a metaphor for sex. If executed well, all of those are good, in my opinion. And they all work because of how varied sex and all that comes with it is for real people.


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## theredbaron (Sep 1, 2014)

You are aware that sex in stories - in any great detail - is used by *poor* writers to keep their readers interested. 

NONE of the classics - Mody Dick, any of the Dickens books, or Hugo - used sex in the most basic of settings. Or merely in passing. Even Austen to some degree.


If you need to include a sex scene in great detail, you're not a good writer. "Smut" writers are the subpar of the writing scale for authors... 



If you want to make a classy sex scene of vague detail, that's different. But if you describe everything from step A to the cig at the end you got a problem


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## shadowwalker (Sep 1, 2014)

theredbaron said:


> You are aware that sex in stories - in any great detail - is used by *poor* writers to keep their readers interested.



That's a pretty broad brush you're using there, and one that I disagree with. Getting too involved with the mechanics can lead to boredom, not interest, for one thing. And many of the sex scenes I've read were in, IMO, very well written books by very good authors. _Some _poor writers will include them in poorly written books in an attempt to keep the readers interested - but those books typically can't keep the interest even then.


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## Jeko (Sep 1, 2014)

> You are aware that sex in stories - in any great detail - is used by *poor* writers to keep their readers interested.



Yes, and so are characters, conflicts, sub-plots, etc.

 All writers, regardless of ability, have everything available to them when it comes to what's included and not included in a story. The difference between 'poor' writers and 'good' writers is in _how _they use what's at their disposal - not what they use. The idea that something is bad because bad writers use it is nonsensical; it's bad in their work, maybe, but it can be good in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing with it.


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## InstituteMan (Sep 1, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> That's a pretty broad brush you're using there, and one that I disagree with. Getting too involved with the mechanics can lead to boredom, not interest, for one thing. And many of the sex scenes I've read were in, IMO, very well written books by very good authors. _Some _poor writers will include them in poorly written books in an attempt to keep the readers interested - but those books typically can't keep the interest even then.



What Shadow said.


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## ziodice (Sep 1, 2014)

Going to point out as well that the "classics" he was talking about are from a different era. I may be wrong here, but to my knowledge most books before 1970 or so contained little to no sex?


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## InstituteMan (Sep 1, 2014)

ziodice said:


> Going to point out as well that the "classics" he was talking about are from a different era. I may be wrong here, but to my knowledge most books before 1970 or so contained little to no sex?



I think that whether books before 1970 contained sex or not is a matter of who you ask and about what books. Oscar Wilde and DH Lawrence scandalized the upstanding folk plenty. The Bond novels started in the 1950s. Pulp fiction was already old fashioned by 1970. Goodbye Columbus was released in 1959. Slaughterhouse 5 was released in 1969.


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## Poet of Gore (Sep 5, 2014)

InstituteMan said:


> I think that whether books before 1970 contained sex or not is a matter of who you ask and about what books. Oscar Wilde and DH Lawrence scandalized the upstanding folk plenty. The Bond novels started in the 1950s. Pulp fiction was already old fashioned by 1970. Goodbye Columbus was released in 1959. Slaughterhouse 5 was released in 1969.



lets not forget about Marquis de Sade or Voltaire


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## InstituteMan (Sep 5, 2014)

Poet of Gore said:


> lets not forget about Marquis de Sade or Voltaire



The Song of Solomon is pretty ancient, very racy, and right there in the Bible. Whether you consider it to be fiction or non-fiction, it is pretty much all about sex and only sex at the surface level.


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## Schrody (Sep 6, 2014)

If you're G.R.R. Martin, then yeah, you do need a sex scene/s. 

If you're not, you should think about do you really need it. Is it important to the story? 

I have a couple of sex scenes in my novel, and they're pretty important for the plot. In other, just showing an affection, normal life, but I never go to deep in the details.


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## Poet of Gore (Sep 7, 2014)

Schrody said:


> If you're G.R.R. Martin, then yeah, you do need a sex scene/s.
> 
> If you're not, you should think about do you really need it. Is it important to the story?
> 
> I have a couple of sex scenes in my novel, and they're pretty important for the plot. In other, just showing an affection, normal life, but I never go to deep in the details.



i hope my sex scenes are more bizarre than any sex any real people are having


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## InstituteMan (Sep 7, 2014)

Poet of Gore said:


> i hope my sex scenes are more bizarre than any sex any real people are having



Unless you are writing about space aliens, someone out there is having sex more bizarre than you are writing about, or at least trying to. Now, if you _are_​ writing about space aliens, there's a writing contest you should enter on here.


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## Poet of Gore (Sep 7, 2014)

InstituteMan said:


> Unless you are writing about space aliens, someone out there is having sex more bizarre than you are writing about, or at least trying to. Now, if you _are_​ writing about space aliens, there's a writing contest you should enter on here.



I am writing a kind of personal trauma story, but like all the pain is being transformed into a sort of lovecraftian tentacled mess. If i posted something from my first draft i would get banned from here or put in a nut house.

Let's just say there is a man trying to have sex with a woman who basically became a mermaid. this is the stuff i am talking about. I mean, i have to pixelate stuff in this scene. the mind cannot comprehend what is going on so this is what the mind shows instead of the grotesque impossible penetrations

or something like that  

oh, and this is like a 4 (out of 10) of weirdness on my sex scenes for this book. the 10 would drive you insane so best not post it.


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## Schrody (Sep 8, 2014)

ziodice said:


> Going to point out as well that the "classics" he was talking about are from a different era. I may be wrong here, but to my knowledge most books before 1970 or so contained little to no sex?



You obviously haven't read Sexus 



Poet of Gore said:


> i hope my sex scenes are more bizarre than any sex any real people are having





Poet of Gore said:


> I am writing a kind of personal trauma story, but like all the pain is being transformed into a sort of lovecraftian tentacled mess. If i posted something from my first draft i would get banned from here or put in a nut house.
> 
> Let's just say there is a man trying to have sex with a woman who basically became a mermaid. this is the stuff i am talking about. I mean, i have to pixelate stuff in this scene. the mind cannot comprehend what is going on so this is what the mind shows instead of the grotesque impossible penetrations
> 
> ...



What Institute said. How do you have sex with a mermaid? :shock: Does she have a removable tail? Do you cut her lower part of the body? Does she even have a vagina, and if she does, how does she pee, etc? I don't mean to shit on your parade, I just think it would be pretty hard to write that one.


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## T.S.Bowman (Sep 8, 2014)

Schrody said:


> What Institute said. How do you have sex with a mermaid? :shock: Does she have a removable tail? Do you cut her lower part of the body? Does she even have a vagina, and if she does, how does she pee, etc? I don't mean to shit on your parade, I just think it would be pretty hard to write that one.



I think that's probably pretty much the point, Schrody. He/She points out how "grotesque" and "insane" the sex scenes are.

Unfortunately, to me, (and I mean no offense to the poster since this is only my opinion) it sounds like the poster is going for "shock value" in those scenes rather than the scenes really adding much of value to the story.


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## Bishop (Sep 8, 2014)

Poet of Gore said:


> I am writing a kind of personal trauma story, but like all the pain is being transformed into a sort of lovecraftian tentacled mess. If i posted something from my first draft i would get banned from here or put in a nut house.
> 
> Let's just say there is a man trying to have sex with a woman who basically became a mermaid. this is the stuff i am talking about. I mean, i have to pixelate stuff in this scene. the mind cannot comprehend what is going on so this is what the mind shows instead of the grotesque impossible penetrations
> 
> ...



You, sir, are on the internet. It will take a lot more than that to offend our sensibilities... IF said sensibilities exist.

That being said, anyone who tells me 'I'm not going to tell you because it'll offend you and drive you insane' makes me roll my eyes. I have a friend who thinks himself some huge deviant in this same way, and every time I'm not 'shocked or appalled' by what he shows me, he's baffled.

Everyone's a pervert in some way. The issue is that most people don't want to admit it, and so this perception of 'weirdness' comes about and both sides of the fence make me cringe. "I'm a huge pervert, LOL" and "Excuse me, you're showing too much kneecap for this club" both make me want to live on another planet.


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## Kyle R (Sep 8, 2014)

Schrody said:


> How do you have sex with a mermaid? ... I just think it would be pretty hard to write that one.



It'd be pretty easy, actually! Just write erotica, but substitute typical female bodily descriptions with more fish-like descriptions.

I've read robot-human erotica and human-ape erotica. Human-fish erotica isn't really that far of a stretch. *slaps forehead*


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## Kevin (Sep 8, 2014)

Eh, 'squid/octopus sex'... that's so 2011. Been there... what else do you got for me?


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## Schrody (Sep 8, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> I think that's probably pretty much the point, Schrody. He/She points out how "grotesque" and "insane" the sex scenes are.
> 
> Unfortunately, to me, (and I mean no offense to the poster since this is only my opinion) it sounds like the poster is going for "shock value" in those scenes rather than the scenes really adding much of value to the story.



You might be right, T.S. 



Bishop said:


> You, sir, are on the internet. It will take a lot more than that to offend our sensibilities... IF said sensibilities exist.
> 
> That being said, anyone who tells me 'I'm not going to tell you because it'll offend you and drive you insane' makes me roll my eyes. I have a friend who thinks himself some huge deviant in this same way, and every time I'm not 'shocked or appalled' by what he shows me, he's baffled.
> 
> Everyone's a pervert in some way. The issue is that most people don't want to admit it, and so this perception of 'weirdness' comes about and both sides of the fence make me cringe. "I'm a huge pervert, LOL" and "Excuse me, you're showing too much kneecap for this club" both make me want to live on another planet.



Agree, but it would take a lot to shock me :mrgreen:



Kyle R said:


> It'd be pretty easy, actually! Just write erotica, but substitute typical female bodily descriptions with more fish-like descriptions.
> 
> I've read robot-human erotica and human-ape erotica. Human-fish erotica isn't really that far of a stretch. *slaps forehead*



WARNING: 18+

"She was the child of the Sea, I was a man of the Land. We met one night at the local bar in Mariana's Trench. She swished seductively with her long, sparkling, scaly fin, and from that moment on, I knew she was the One. She had a red bra made out of corals, and my God, I think I finally understood that one:"There's a plenty of fish in the sea". Indeed, there was. We talked, we laughed, and a few hours later she asked the well known question:"My place or yours?". I said:"Yours" , knowing the fact she would suffocate on the land, and there's nothing worse than a cold fish. When we came in front of her door, we were already kissing passionately so much she couldn't even put the key in the lock. Once opened, I picked her up with my strong arms, carrying her to the love bed. Of course, that would be a lot easier if I turned on the light first, slipping through some slime, but I managed to bring us both safely in the bedroom. More or less. I threw her on the bed, wanting to see and feel her naked skin. Soon enough there was a rough realization her fin isn't re-attachable, and there was nothing I could do. She proposed she'll release her eggs, and I can mine, so our Love Child could be born. Few minutes later we were lying in bed and smoking algae cigarettes. As I was thinking how this was my weirdest sexual encounter, she looked at me, then our little lungfish baby, and I knew I'm the luckiest guy in the world. Guys in work will never believe me."

Or, you know, something like that XD


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## Schrody (Sep 8, 2014)

Kevin said:


> Eh, 'squid/octopus sex'... that's so 2011. Been there... what else do you got for me?



Well known as Hentai. And no, I haven't watched it :mrgreen:


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## Kevin (Sep 8, 2014)

Schrodster- I've no interest either.  For me, sex descriptions are unnecessary. Unless there's something pertinent, important, but mostly I can't think of one story that the description was needed.


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## Bishop (Sep 8, 2014)

Kevin said:


> Schrodster- I've no interest either.  For me, sex descriptions are unnecessary. Unless there's something pertinent, important, but mostly I can't think of one story that the description was needed.



I'm currently reading Neil Gaiman's _American Gods_ and its opening chapters have a decently detailed sex scene that sets up a character's arc and is actually very intertwined with the story. I'm not saying it was 100% necessary to go into the detail Gaiman decided to, but he does an excellent job of providing a plot-powered sex scene with a nice, fine line of detail that entices and yet terrifies at the same time. It definitely needed the descriptions for the latter, as you slowly realize the male in the scene is being killed.


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## Schrody (Sep 8, 2014)

Kevin said:


> Schrodster- I've no interest either.  For me, sex descriptions are unnecessary. Unless there's something pertinent, important, but mostly I can't think of one story that the description was needed.



I agree Kev, that's why I put sex only when _really_ needed. Besides, I hate writing sex scenes


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## T.S.Bowman (Sep 8, 2014)

Bishop said:


> I'm currently reading Neil Gaiman's _American Gods_ and its opening chapters have a decently detailed sex scene that sets up a character's arc and is actually very intertwined with the story. I'm not saying it was 100% necessary to go into the detail Gaiman decided to, but he does an excellent job of providing a plot-powered sex scene with a nice, fine line of detail that entices and yet terrifies at the same time. It definitely needed the descriptions for the latter, as you slowly realize the male in the scene is being killed.



Ya know..I just read that book a few months ago and I remember nothing at all of the scene you are talking about.

What that tells me is that it really wasn't all that necessary for the character arc. *shrug*


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## ziodice (Sep 8, 2014)

There's also those times where a novel lacking sex would make _very little_ sense. For example, a novel about succubi or incubi. They're _sex demons. _The only way to not have them having sex (at least for the classic creature) would be to have them not be allowed in fiction, and that would be arbitrary and unfair.


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## ak2190 (Sep 10, 2014)

I don't understand why people can happily read tons of violence - and other generally distasteful things about life - but still have a massive problem with sex. Sex is fun. Sex is real. Sex is emotionally and practically important as a force in the world. I completely condone the judicious use of sex in writing.



*edit* Do people who dislike reading about sex also dislike looking at paintings with nudity and/or sex in them?


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## Gamer_2k4 (Sep 10, 2014)

ak2190 said:


> I don't understand why people can happily read tons of violence - and other generally distasteful things about life - but still have a massive problem with sex. Sex is fun. Sex is real. Sex is emotionally and practically important as a force in the world. I completely condone the judicious use of sex in writing.



As I said on the previous page, we're okay with distasteful things BECAUSE they're distasteful.  Because we can be detached from distasteful things, we have fewer issues being exposed to them.  Sex, on the other hand, IS real, as you say - or at least, real sex is real.  Fictional sex can be just as desensitizing as fictional violence, but the difference is that the average person has no desire to be violent in real life.  Real sex is a deeply personal thing, something shared between two people privately.  When you start influencing and altering that with fictional (or even real) accounts, it can be damaging.



ak2190 said:


> *edit* Do people who dislike reading about sex also dislike looking at paintings with nudity and/or sex in them?



In my case, absolutely.


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## T.S.Bowman (Sep 10, 2014)

ak2190 said:


> *edit* Do people who dislike reading about sex also dislike looking at paintings with nudity and/or sex in them?



I have no issues in seeing it in art. That would be a "show" rather than a "tell".

In a painting, the artist has just one opportunity (canvas) with which to showcase the idea behind the picture.

In writing, an author can have an almost unlimited amount of words to do the same. I just think the words wasted in describing a sex scene that doesn't add much of anything (except a sex scene) to the story could have been put to better use. 

As I said earlier in the thread, I have yet to come across a sex scene in a novel that, upon finishing the novel, seemed like it absolutely HAD to be there.


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## Morkonan (Sep 11, 2014)

A quick distinction, in general. (Ambiguous ambiguity is just as much my specialty as shooting my own phrases in their foot... feet. Whatever.)

"Sex" in a novel for an appropriate story purpose is just fine by me. If it's good for the story, it's should be in there, no matter what it is.

"Sex" in a novel for the titillation value is not appropriate to me since I _don't_ read pornographic novels. IF, however, I did like reading pornographic novels, then it would be _fine_. But, my "expectation" is that anything written in something that I am reading has something of substance to do with the story. Sex for titillation's sake is "pornography", since it's intention is not to be more than the sum of its parts. (ie: It's just there to be seggzy and pornographicy, serving the intended Reader's interests.) If I find that in a standard fiction novel, it's unacceptable. (Note - I am not offended, at least not in any moralistic sense regarding sex. It's just that I'm offended that the crappy book I'm reading delved into off-genre stuffs and that's not why I bought it.)

A bajillion years ago, back when I road a dinosaur to school, I read a work of science-fiction. I probably hadn't yet sprouted my first hairs, but I read a science-fictiony erotic masterpiece that would have made Barbarella blush. I had no idea what I was in store for. The cover had a spaceship, some adventuresome looking guy shooting a ray gun and a chick with boobs. Of course I liked the cover! But, I had no knowledge about other people's plumbing or what they did with it. All I knew was that the cover looked cool, so there must be a cool story in there. Well, it turned out that just about every chapter was a journey of the main character on his way to have sex with something. I had no idea what half the stuff was that they were talking about, but I did read it all. Yes, I thought it was "titillating." But, I also thought it was "crap." It wasn't what I had _agreed_ to purchase. Yes, the boobs on the cover should have alerted me. But, I was a kid! How was I to know what mysteries lay within? From my point of view, from what I could decipher from the cover and back-cover copy, here was this have-spacesuit-will-travel guy shooting a blaster with a spaceship hovering in the background and he was going on an adventure! I bought the book for that, too, and it wasn't there.

Expectations are important. I wouldn't advertise a hard science-fiction story and then give someone a fantasy, would I? Would you? Just as everything is in the novel because it's meaningful for the full experience of the story, "sex" should be presented in that very same light. If it's porno, it's porno and have fun with that. But, if it's not, then don't force it there.


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## Poet of Gore (Sep 14, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> I have no issues in seeing it in art. That would be a "show" rather than a "tell".
> 
> In a painting, the artist has just one opportunity (canvas) with which to showcase the idea behind the picture.
> 
> ...



think about the words wasted if an author writes a scene in a cafe which does not add much of anything to a story. how about those wasted words?

i have read a ton of sex scenes in books and have never read an erotica book. just like there is sex in many movies which are not porns.

nothing should be in a book unless it is to further plot, fleshing out characters (fleshing--is that a pun?), or creating mood. sex scenes can do all three of those.

I mean, just imagine American Psycho without sex scenes. **shudders**


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## T.S.Bowman (Sep 14, 2014)

Poet of Gore said:


> think about the words wasted if an author writes a scene in a cafe which does not add much of anything to a story. how about those wasted words?



How about them? That's exactly my point.


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## Dawson (Sep 14, 2014)

In my book, the first sex scene is used to show the intensity of the mute character's synesthesia-transfer powers, and how her relationship with her partner has progressed so deeply without verbal communication. 

The second sex scene is meant to be absolutely hilarious, yet creepily manipulative, showing that my MC is really a coldhearted bitch, but still can laugh about anything. Literally. Anything. Much to her poor partner's dismay. It's... not very romantic. 

The last sex scene I really have planned is where the MC seduces the king disguised as his wife, and kills him while he's too horny to think about using his powers, and she's on top of him from behind, and she takes on the name "Mantis Queen" after that moment, leaving the bedroom wearing his crown, in his wife's undergarments, carrying out his bloody head.

Now, is sex always appropriate? No. But in my books, it's called for. Because it shows the nature of the characters, and in the case of the "Mantis Queen" scene, it really is the climax of the story.


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