# Plotless Novels



## OurJud (Aug 3, 2013)

This is a rather subjective topic for discussion, I know, because each and every one of you will have your own interpretation for the word 'plot', but I still think it could be interesting, not to mention helpful.

If there's one word that's always terrified me when it comes to writing, it's 'plot'. And while I accept this can be interpreted in many ways, for me it has always conjured up thoughts of Dan Brown or Tom Clancy novels. Novels full of twists and turns, clever red herrings, multiple characters... Not only do I feel unable to write such complex plots, I have absolutely no interest in them either.

Earlier on, I got to thinking about this subject and started to think about the many films that appear to be largely plotless. _Withnail and I_ is about two out of work actors, living in squalor in late 60s London. Desperate to get the filth out of their lungs, they borrow an uncle's cottage situated in the Lake District, and while there encounter rain, a mad bull, an intimidating gamekeeper and a visit from their outrageously homosexual uncle. Then one of them get's the offer of a job, they go back to London where the one who's been offered a job packs a bag and leaves. And that's it.

And yet, it's my second favourite film ever. It's funny, touching and you never want to let your eyes leave the screen.

_Radio On_ - A British road movie made and set in at the end of the 70s, about a guy who drives from London to Bristol to investigate the death of his brother. Except there's no investigation at all, as the film is made up of him stopping off and spending a little time with various oddballs.

What I'm trying to establish here, after much rambling, is whether or not the same can be achieved in novel format? And yes, I am aware of Jack Kerouac's _On the Road_ and the other Beat authors such as Ginsberg and Burroughs, but they were very much of a time in history and I'm not sure anyone is writing like that these days.

I had an idea for a novel, but I've been hesitating because I have this notion that I need a plot before I can start. The idea is four friends traveling across an unspecified country, who stop off at cafes and diners along the way. If they're hungry they eat at these places. If they're running low on funds, they hold them up and steal from the customers and owner, much like the beginning/ending scene from _Pulp Fiction._

Is this enough? It's purely self-indulgent because I love the idea and thought of doing this for real (not the holding up bit), but just traveling across the lands in a car, stopping off wherever I want, sleeping in motels and guesthouses, before driving on to the next town or whatever.

And yes, I realise that the only thing a novel has to achieve is making the reader keep wanting to turn those pages until they get to the end, where hopefully they close the book and say, "Wow! That was a good read." If you can do this, then you've succeeded, regardless of plot/lack of plot.

I suppose I'm just trying to establish if there are any essential ingredients, or if I can just be totally self-absorbed/indulgent with my writing, and to hell with journeys and discoveries. Can my character arrive at the end of the book and be the same person he was when he started?

Sorry for such a mammoth post.


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## gmehl (Aug 3, 2013)

OurJud said:


> The idea is four friends traveling across an unspecified country, who stop off at cafes and diners along the way. If they're hungry they eat at these places. If they're running low on funds, they hold them up and steal from the customers and owner ....
> Is this enough?



It's an interesting premise, but my own view is "not enough" - why are they traveling together, how do they interact with each other, can they steal without consequence, what eventually happens to them?  Seems to me that "plot" involves three elements: setup, conflict, resolution.  So who are the travelers, why, etc.; what issues do they face, what problems do they encounter, how do they evolve; and how do things turn out?  This doesn't have to be high adventure or spellbinding action and could get downright literary, but I think there really has to be some purpose to the story.

Consider this description:  Four friends travel around, eat in cafes and diners, and that's it.  Would you pay fifteen bucks to read it?


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## Pishwi (Aug 3, 2013)

OurJud said:


> _Withnail and I_ is about two out of work actors, living in squalor in late 60s London. Desperate to get the filth out of their lungs, they borrow an uncle's cottage situated in the Lake District, and while there encounter rain, a mad bull, an intimidating gamekeeper and a visit from their outrageously homosexual uncle. Then one of them get's the offer of a job, they go back to London where the one who's been offered a job packs a bag and leaves. And that's it.



What you've described there is a plot; every novel has one. It just lacks a good structure. Ideally you want things to develop during a plot, like a character overcoming a fear, or something he hates gradually being shown in a good light. It's always helpful to know roughly where the book is going, to keep us reading. I had to put down a book that I'm halfway through the other day, just because it didn't seem to be going anywhere.

Of course, you can do it in the style of that book and _Withnail and I_, because obviously they were good; the book I was reading was good enough to be published, so I assume it got better, and _Withnail and_ _I_kept you hooked with comic elements, and probably interesting characters too.

So, in my opinion, characters are the most important aspect of a story, but a good plot is nearly always vital. After all, story and plot are pretty much synonymous. It helps to let us know where the novel is going, where the characters are journeying to, or what someone is hoping to achieve, but then don't make it too obvious either. That's just as boring as not having a plot.


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## OurJud (Aug 3, 2013)

gmehl said:


> Consider this description:  Four friends travel around, eat in cafes and diners, and that's it.  Would you pay fifteen bucks to read it?



 Yes. And I mean that quite honestly.

Maybe I'm a bit of an oddball, but I love films where nothing happens - purely character-driven stuff. I've not read anything similar, with the exception of _Naive. Super_, so can't really say if it translates to novel form, but isn't it true to say that if the writing is good enough, you can write anything? Afterall, the aforementioned Kerouac managed.

Not that I'm suggesting I'm in that league, of course.

However, I accept my tastes are rather unique and that I probably need to give my idea more focus.



Pishwi said:


> So, in my opinion, characters are the most  important aspect of a story, but a good plot is nearly always vital.  After all, story and plot are pretty much synonymous. It helps to let us  know where the novel is going, where the characters are journeying to,  or what someone is hoping to achieve, but then don't make it too obvious  either. That's just as boring as not having a plot.



Oh, gaaaaawd!! Why is writing so difficult?


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## Dictarium (Aug 3, 2013)

Think of Ferris Bueller's Day Of for a moment. What's it about? A kid skips school and does a bunch of over-the-top, impractical, zany things on his day off with his best friend and his girlfriend. That's about it. They go to a parade, they go to a baseball game, they go to a museum, his principal tries to catch him. But the crux of the movie, the plot, is all about the development of Ferris and Cameron (his friend) as characters and as people. Ferris learns an important lesson about the harsh realities of life and how he won't be able to be the popular kid in high school forever. Cameron learns to stand up for himself and that, as Ferris puts it at the end, "Life moves pretty fast," and "if you don't stop and look around once and a while, you could miss it."

The plot is not about the set pieces. The parade, the game, the museum. The plot is about the coming of age of two 18-year-old boys who're about to step out into the real world.

My point: so long as the characters change from the beginning of the trip to the end and things happen in the middle that aren't just "We're in North Dakota, let's go see Mount Rushmore. That'll be cool." or "We're in Florida, let's go to Disney World!" then I think it's a perfectly sound idea for a book. You could write a book about a single day that a guy has so long as he, we, or somebody learns something over the course of the book and the character development is substantial enough to carry the plot of the story.


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## gmehl (Aug 3, 2013)

I remember a charming little movie called "My Dinner With Andre" - just two guys having dinner in a restaurant - but Wallace Shawn and Andre Gregory create a mesmerizing performance of a real-time conversation that unveils character on many levels and was critically acclaimed.

Another film, _A Late Quartet _is a pure character study of four members of a string quartet that has been until now successful but faces the inevitability of change.  They're just musicians preparing for a new season.  Not much plot?  How about "Members of a world-renowned string quartet struggle to stay together in the face of death, competing egos and insuppressible lust."  And it's suddenly very intriguing...and satisfying.

Your four friends on the road _surely must_ have some sort of interaction that goes beyond ordering from a menu.  There's probably many different ways you could tell the story of the four friends in such a way that they are unveiled bit by bit and we come to an understanding of each of them.  And now you have a plot.


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## squidtender (Aug 3, 2013)

You just have to decide what kind of driver you want for you book: Plot, Character or Theme driven. The books that you listed (which most in those genres are) are plot driven. I've read some stories that are completely character driven and when I think back to the read, I remember these big, bright characters that seem more real than most people I know. The plot was secondary and it didn't matter. Even if your plot is "Four friends driving across a country", that's still something of a plot, just not the main attraction of your book.


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## Dictarium (Aug 3, 2013)

gmehl said:


> I remember a charming little movie called "My Dinner With Andre" - just two guys having dinner in a restaurant - but Wallace Shawn and Andre Gregory create a mesmerizing performance of a real-time conversation that unveils character on many levels and was critically acclaimed.
> 
> Another film, _A Late Quartet _is a pure character study of four members of a string quartet that has been until now successful but faces the inevitability of change.  They're just musicians preparing for a new season.  Not much plot?  How about "Members of a world-renowned string quartet struggle to stay together in the face of death, competing egos and insuppressible lust."  And it's suddenly very intriguing...and satisfying.
> 
> Your four friends on the road _surely must_ have some sort of interaction that goes beyond ordering from a menu.  There's probably many different ways you could tell the story of the four friends in such a way that they are unveiled bit by bit and we come to an understanding of each of them.  And now you have a plot.


Indeed. You don't necessarily need to have a tunneling series of twists and turns with build-ups and break downs and fifteen characters and action and romance. You just need to have, in some way shape or form, one of these: 
then you're good.


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## OurJud (Aug 3, 2013)

gmehl said:


> Your four friends on the road _surely must_ have some sort of interaction that goes beyond ordering from a menu.  There's probably many different ways you could tell the story of the four friends in such a way that they are unveiled bit by bit and we come to an understanding of each of them.  And now you have a plot.



Well I should first mention that I have pitched this in the Brainstorming group and have already received some great ideas to help develop the plot, so a big thanks to those people if you happen to be reading this.

The four friends have known each other school. There's the main character (I, it's written in 1st person), a tech geek, a woman, and the 14 year-old trapped inside a 31 year old body that I mentioned elsewhere. That's all I have character wise.


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## gmehl (Aug 3, 2013)

Sounds like the start of a plot to me!  All you need is 80,000 words of filling in the blanks


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## squidtender (Aug 3, 2013)

gmehl said:


> All you need is 80,000 words of filling in the blanks



The easy part, right?


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## Lewdog (Aug 3, 2013)

Dictarium said:


> Indeed. You don't necessarily need to have a tunneling series of twists and turns with build-ups and break downs and fifteen characters and action and romance. You just need to have, in some way shape or form, one of these: View attachment 4897then you're good.



A stick man with a broken back?  How is that going to make a novel good?


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## Bloggsworth (Aug 3, 2013)

I'm not following...


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## gmehl (Aug 3, 2013)

Looks to me like it's an introduction, stakes on an always rising path, a climax and then a resolution.  Of course, I'm not much of an artist...


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## Staff Deployment (Aug 3, 2013)

Hey Jud, the best roadtrip movies always have an overarching goal (which is easy since it'll just be the final destination of the road trip) whether it's having a nice vacation at Funland, getting to a job interview in time, or reaching the Beer Pong tournament to win over the french lady you met once at a summer camp.

So maybe these characters are $20,000 in debt, they find a drinks cooler filled with cocaine, and they set off across the country to clear that debt. By giving the guy the cocaine. And not using any of it. Or maybe they use some of it and the guy gets pissed and now they gotta go the other direction except faster.


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## OurJud (Aug 3, 2013)

Thanks, SD. Someone suggested drugs in the Brainstorming group, and I have to say it's been the strongest contender yet.


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## Govinda (Aug 3, 2013)

I've come late to the game.  All the jokes have been taken.  :moody:

Strange to me though, your opening statement as regards the many definitions of plot.  In my experience, plot seems pretty straight forward as regards what it is.  To me, it's _theme_ that's the great derailer of conversations.  Get three people to agree on what _that_ means and the next round is on me.


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## Myers (Aug 4, 2013)

I think novels that _seem _like they are light on plot are more centered around the internal conflict of the main characters, and how the resulting decisions or behaviors affect them and the people in their lives. They are less about larger external forces and conflicts. No one is shot and nothing blows up. Life happens and people learn and change; or they don’t despite everything that they might lose as result. That’s the kind of novel I’m writing, and the kind I prefer to read. Very often a person’s true nature is only revealed when he is out of his comfort zone; when he’s faced with obstacles, even relatively small ones. So I’d say a story about a group of friends traveling across the country is ripe with possibilities.


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## Lewdog (Aug 4, 2013)

I tried a plotless novel once, but like President Clinton, I didn't inhale.


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## philistine (Aug 4, 2013)

I remember a certain author, whose name currently escapes me, who said something to the tune of, 'a novel doesn't have to have a plot... but it's probably going to be much better it if does'. The films you listed are good examples of that; pieces, originally brought about from novels, which didn't seem to have much of a plot at all. Things happened, some more things happened, and before you know it, what is essentially the denouement is unfolding right in front of your face.

I really, really enjoy those kinds of books. In the case of Dan Brown and others, the anfractuous plot seems to engulf, and subsequently impede any kind of serious development and rapport we might have with the characters. Conversely, the above-mentioned stories do precisely the opposite.

Also, have you heard of Italo Calvino's '_If on a winter's night a traveller..._'?


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## OurJud (Aug 4, 2013)

philistine said:


> Also, have you heard of Italo Calvino's '_If on a winter's night a traveller..._'?



No, I haven't, philistine, but I shall go and rectify that now 

[edit] Now ordered for the princely sum of £2.80. I usually avoid books written in second-person, but this one intrigue me sufficiently.


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## WechtleinUns (Aug 4, 2013)

You might try looking into "Kusamakura" by Soseki. It is very much a plotless novel, in the vein that you describe.


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## philistine (Aug 4, 2013)

WechtleinUns said:


> You might try looking into "Kusamakura" by Soseki. It is very much a plotless novel, in the vein that you describe.



I've read a few things by Soseki, though haven't heard of that one before. It looks like something I might enjoy, and shall be ordering it right after I type this post.


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## bookmasta (Aug 4, 2013)

Usually in a plot you have a series of obstacles or challenges the main character or characters have to overcome leading to a climatic ending. I don't really know if its possible to have a plotless novel. Sure your characters can meander across the country but there has to be a reason. A plot is the very essence of the story. Why the character is on the adventure, the obstacles, hardships, and the eventual ending. The idea of having a book without a plot is kind of confusing. Like are you talking about the story just unfolding as they go along? You could do that I suppose but what about an ending? If they just go with it, there has to be an eventual ending of some sort.


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## OurJud (Aug 5, 2013)

bookmasta said:


> The idea of having a book without a plot is kind of confusing. Like are you talking about the story just unfolding as they go along? You could do that I suppose but what about an ending? If they just go with it, there has to be an eventual ending of some sort.



I know what you mean, bookmasta, and as I said in my original post it very much depends on an individual's interpretation of the word 'plot'.

Speaking for myself, a plot is something Dan Brown novels have.

I'm not entirely sure what I'm talking about now.

You see, I want to write about a man driving across country, stopping off at diners and cafes, simply because I like the idea of it. But even if I give this man a reason for the journey (let's say he's taking his father's ashes to be scattered at one of his favourite beauty spots) I'd still need a good reason for writing the scenes where he stops off at cafes. Sure, anyone making such a journey would obviously have to stop off for food, but that's simply not a good enough reason for writing such scenes. It would be purely self-indulgent. People in real life have to lots of mundane things, but they never get written about.

Who was it who said "A good novel is like real life with all the boring bits taken out." ?

I'm reading HST's _Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas _at the moment, to try and get an idea and feel for how this can be achieved.


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## luckyscars (Aug 6, 2013)

OurJud said:


> If there's one word that's always terrified me when it comes to writing, it's 'plot'. And while I accept this can be interpreted in many ways, for me it has always conjured up thoughts of Dan Brown or Tom Clancy novels. Novels full of twists and turns, clever red herrings, multiple characters... Not only do I feel unable to write such complex plots, I have absolutely no interest in them either.



I have no problem at all with your point, but I just wanted to ask: Please, for the love of the Lord, don't mention Tom Clancy in the same breath as that hack Brown. They have about as much in common as caviar and spam.


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## Robdemanc (Aug 7, 2013)

OurJud said:


> I had an idea for a novel, but I've been hesitating because I have this notion that I need a plot before I can start. The idea is four friends traveling across an unspecified country, who stop off at cafes and diners along the way. If they're hungry they eat at these places. If they're running low on funds, they hold them up and steal from the customers and owner, much like the beginning/ending scene from _Pulp Fiction._
> 
> Is this enough?



When I read that bit I thought it was more than enough.  It sounds like an interesting idea for a story.  You already have a plot right there.  The eat if they are hungry, they hold up the joint if they need funds.  Causality is present.

Write it.  If you have the urge just write it.  

If I was in a bookstore and read a synopsis stating what you described, I would read the first page or so and if I liked the author's writing I would buy it.


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## OurJud (Aug 7, 2013)

Thanks for the encouragement, Rob 

I have to admit I haven't done anything with this since writing the first 300 words or so, back when I had the idea. The stopping off at cafes and diners is pure self-indulgence, and I couldn't justify writing such scenes as I couldn't figure out how to incorporate them into the plot. The scenes where they rob the places are all well and good, but I couldn't help but think anyone reading the scenes where they stop off to just eat would be asking, "Why is he telling me this? What has it got to do with the plot?"

Over-thinking is my biggest enemy, and I have no way of beating it.


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## TheYellowMustang (Aug 7, 2013)

I think it could work. I'm already wanting to read it. I think, in a novel like that, it all depends on the characters. They have to be _good _(not necessarily as in "kind"). If there's a character that is likable/relatable enough that I want to finish the book simply just to figure out what happens to him/her, then you've come a far way. 

I also think that you're more reliant on having interesting or funny scenes. In a book with a "big" plot, there can be slow and even boring scenes, and you still read on because it's all interesting as long as it leads to the conclusion and is a part of that conclusion. in your novel, I imagine you'd have to focus more on making each scene beautiful by itself.


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## TheYellowMustang (Aug 7, 2013)

HOLY CR*P Dictarium I just noticed your lion is blinking!!!!

My god I've never been so startled... It took me three tries to spell "startled".


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## OurJud (Aug 7, 2013)

TheYellowMustang said:


> HOLY CR*P Dictarium I just noticed your lion is blinking!!!!
> 
> My god I've never been so startled... It took me three tries to spell "startled".



:icon_cheesygrin: _Lion_... is that what you see? I have some news for you, TYM. It isn't a lion, it's something I did with a picture of a bog-eyed black guy with his massive tongue hanging out. And what's more, it isn't blinking :confusion: ... it's not animated at all. Are you sure it wasn't you who was blinking? 



TheYellowMustang said:


> I think it could work. I'm already  wanting to read it. I think, in a novel like that, it all depends on the  characters. They have to be _good _(not necessarily as in  "kind"). If there's a character that is likable/relatable enough that I  want to finish the book simply just to figure out what happens to  him/her, then you've come a far way.
> 
> I also think that you're more reliant on having interesting or funny  scenes. In a book with a "big" plot, there can be slow and even boring  scenes, and you still read on because it's all interesting as long as it  leads to the conclusion and is a part of that conclusion. in your  novel, I imagine you'd have to focus more on making each scene beautiful  by itself.



On a more serious note, I found this very encouraging. Thanks. And you're absolutely spot on about the scenes and characters in a novel like this needing to be interesting. Hopefully I can pull that off.

A couple of people have now said they'd accept the cafe and diner scenes, even if they are there purely for the sake of it, so I feel much happier about writing them now.


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## Lewdog (Aug 7, 2013)

OurJud said:


> :icon_cheesygrin: _Lion_... is that what you see? I have some news for you, TYM. It isn't a lion, it's something I did with a picture of a bog-eyed black guy with his massive tongue hanging out. And what's more, it isn't blinking... it's not animated at all. Are you sure it wasn't you who was blinking?



[video=youtube;j13oJajXx0M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j13oJajXx0M[/video]


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## OurJud (Aug 7, 2013)

Eh?? What have I said that was vain?

[edit] Oh, I see. Okay, Mistaken, sure, but vain is a little harsh. She _is_ referring to an avatar that isn't even on the same page, to be fair. And the post came immediately after her reply that _was_ addressed to me, so I just presumed it was an afterthought.


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## Kyle R (Aug 8, 2013)

Hikaru Nakamura's _Norweigan Wood_ is essentially a plotless novel, in the way we simply follow the main character as he moves through the world and interacts with different people.

It's somewhat _coming-of-age_, in that the main character is learning more about himself, but mostly it's just a journey filled with interesting conversations, different settings, and unique, quirky people.

Relationships develop and blossom, others fall apart. Mistakes are made along the way. It's all wrapped up in lush description that gives the reader a feel of dipping into another life.

John Irving's _The World According to Garp_ had a similar effect on me, a book where, if I had to describe the plot, I'd have to say, "The characters aged, and life happened to them."


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## Lewdog (Aug 8, 2013)

OurJud said:


> Eh?? What have I said that was vain?
> 
> [edit] Oh, I see. Okay, Mistaken, sure, but vain is a little harsh. She _is_ referring to an avatar that isn't even on the same page, to be fair. And the post came immediately after her reply that _was_ addressed to me, so I just presumed it was an afterthought.



It was a joke...but your picture of Beetlejuice is rather disturbing.


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## Robdemanc (Aug 8, 2013)

I agree with the yellow mustang.  It sounds to me like it should be a character driven plot.  Perhaps one of the characters is the ring leader and encouraging the others to hold up cafes with him.  This story could be a metaphor.  

Ask yourself who these characters are.  Why are they off on a road trip?  Are they students in a gap year disillusioned by life and looking for fun.  Are they on the run?  Perhaps they have ill regard for humanity, maybe something in their childhood has triggered this.  You can reveal bits over the course of the story.

I think most readers would find your idea intriguing.


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## OurJud (Aug 8, 2013)

Sorry, Lew. Anyway, I think that Carly Simon song is rather ironic, in that the song clearly _IS_ about 'him'. And yes, the picture is disturbing, although I'm not sure what you mean by Bettlejuice. I'm rather proud of it. It's like really bad poster art... viewed on acid 

Rob, interesting what you say about the gang being students. When I first came up with the idea they were all in the mid/late thirties, but then when I started writing I couldn't 'hear' them as anything other than being in their early twenties.


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## Lewdog (Aug 8, 2013)

I'm pretty sure the guy in your picture is this man:

Beetlejuice (entertainer) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## OurJud (Aug 8, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> I'm pretty sure the guy in your picture is this man:
> 
> Beetlejuice (entertainer) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Can't find the image I used now, but I don't think it's him. His mouth/teeth wasn't that big.


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## voltigeur (Aug 8, 2013)

I’m going out on a limb here and say that except for a writer’s ramblings (using writing as therapy), there are no plot-less stories. From my days in theatre there are only 7 plots.


[wo]man vs. nature 
[wo]man vs. [wo]man 
[wo]man vs. the environment 
[wo]man vs. machines/technology 
[wo]man vs. the supernatural 
[wo]man vs. self 
[wo]man vs. god/religion 
 
One coach suggested in all story telling there is only one plot: one person improving his status in the face of another. 

Some stories are about the character’s growth or development. Through the events of the story the character or characters grow and learn life lessons resolving conflict. This is the norm for Tom Clancy, for example in A Clear and Present Danger the main plot is Jack Ryan standing by his morals in the face of very powerful men.  This is either; man vs. man or man vs. environment. 

Working on my novel I follow many characters through many years. They start in one place in their lives and mature and grow wiser, defeated etc. The Cold War is a plot unto itself but the story is about how that world event affected the players.  It is a much more subtle way to use plot.  Overall it is man vs. enviroment.


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## Lewdog (Aug 8, 2013)

I thought one of the plot conflicts was (Wo) man vs. Society?  That would basically be what would be the plot of the OP.


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## bookmasta (Aug 8, 2013)

TheYellowMustang said:


> HOLY CR*P Dictarium I just noticed your lion is blinking!!!!
> 
> My god I've never been so startled... It took me three tries to spell "startled".


I just noticed this. It's creepy. At first I saw it blink out of the corner of my eye and figured I was imaging it. Then it did it again and again. How do you get your picture to be animated?


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## gmehl (Aug 8, 2013)

...Or perhaps instead of trying to plug some recognized plot into a concept, the allure of the "plotless novel" remains.  If that's the case, go ahead and write it, experimentally.  While it might not stand a chance in the crass commercial world, it could always be self-published, if only to scratch the itch and, who knows, it might go viral and prove all of us wrong.


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## tabasco5 (Aug 8, 2013)

Forgive me if this was already mentioned, but is it your intention to have a plotless novel?  Is that your goal?


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## OurJud (Aug 8, 2013)

fenbields5 said:


> Forgive me if this was already mentioned, but is it your intention to have a plotless novel?  Is that your goal?



Not really, fenbeilds5. I was just trying to ascertain if not worrying about a plot, in the conventional sense, was acceptable. I wanted to know if writing scenes, purely for the sake of it, would be tolerated, rather than following the rule which says everything you write has to move the story along and be relevant to the plot.


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## tabasco5 (Aug 9, 2013)

Do the events of the story connect to one another or is it just completely random?  Will there be an overall point to the work, or a certain reason to read it, or is it just entertainment?

In the world of classical guitar, it has become popular to compose works that have nothing to hold them together--no central melody, etc.  They are mainly just a collection of sounds that, on their own, sound nice but really have no context for interpretation by a casual listener.  Now most classical guitarists, professors, composers, and others who are generally familiar with classical guitar often appreciate these pieces on their technical merit.  On the other hand, audiences generally hate them as do several in the music world (myself included).  

So what I am trying to say about writing a plotless novel is that many people may appreciate it, and some familiar with the writing process may appreciate the technical aspects, but many people will hate it and many will not understand it.  Either way though, you should write it if you want to and see how it goes.  It sounds like it will be a fun project regardless (and good writing exercise).


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## OurJud (Aug 9, 2013)

fenbields5 said:


> *Do the events of the story connect to one another* or is it just completely random?  Will there be an overall point to the work, or a certain reason to read it, or is it just entertainment?



Yes.

The very loose premise is that this gang are driving across country, robbing the cafes and diners on the way. I have no idea why they're doing this, where they're heading, or even what their goal is. Maybe they just want to experience life on the road and need some way of funding it. But what I say about writing scenes for the sake of it relates to scenes I'd like to write where they sometimes stop off at a cafe just to eat. This is beginning to sound like some kind of weird obsession, but I would like the opportunity to write scenes like the one below, purely for the sake of them. They wouldn't really have anything to do with the plot, but I'd still like to write them.

[video=youtube;6wtfNE4z6a8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wtfNE4z6a8[/video]


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## tabasco5 (Aug 9, 2013)

That actually sounds pretty interesting to me, a story built like that.  I think it would be a lot of fun to write and has numerous possibilities--road trips are great for character development (or lack of development).  If you wind up writing this, please consider me for a Beta.  I would like to read it.


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## OurJud (Aug 9, 2013)

fenbields5 said:


> That actually sounds pretty interesting to me, a story built like that.  I think it would be a lot of fun to write and has numerous possibilities--road trips are great for character development (or lack of development).  If you wind up writing this, please consider me for a Beta.  I would like to read it.



Thanks very much, fenbields5. Those are very encouraging words 

Just out of interest, would you be expecting a particular POV (1st or 3rd) for such a novel, or would it not matter to you?


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## tabasco5 (Aug 10, 2013)

OurJud said:


> Just out of interest, would you be expecting a particular POV (1st or 3rd) for such a novel, or would it not matter to you?



I have it pictured in my mind as 3rd person, but I think it could be interesting either way.  First person would be fun, and multiple first person POVs would be nice as well.


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## Greimour (Aug 10, 2013)

I didn't read all the replies and someone might try and lynch me after this due to a strong disagreement... BUT...

Game of Thrones felt plotless to me.

Explanation; or an attempt at part of one:

When I was writing one of my stories, I realized my characters lost some of the depth I was aiming for, because simply put, I didn't know enough about them. I ended up doing something similar to Lord of The Rings; Silmarion. Which is to say, a backdrop of each and every character, which then went further back, to the stories of their parents ... I continued moving backwards through history to the time when Men were just multiples of tribes, how they banded together, how they became towns, cities, countries.

I ended up with not just the story I was writing but an entire history of pretty much the world. I felt I could pluck stories, heroes, adventures, people and all other manner of things from anywhere in the timeline - which included the future of my original story. Now I knew not only the history to my story, but the future as well. I was quite proud, but I was also reaching seven-years centered around the same one story.

That was when I read A Game of Thrones.

It felt like someone had done one I had done, written a History of a story... people, lives, religions, beliefs, ancestry etcetera. Finally, after writing an enormous amount on it, the person re-read some and realized it could come out as a story of its own. The author then refined and edited the piece and delivered a game of Thrones. The lives of a huge cast of people during a specific timeline. - I couldn't figure out a "plot" ... It _seemed_ to start with Lord Stark as the Main Character, being dragged into a story he wanted no part, which is to say the Game of Thrones and a trip to the Capital. But he dies and the story continues on. Rob Stark gets little screen time but seemed like the Main Character anyway, out to avenge his father. He also dies... and I am thinking: "What the hell, they are all main characters but all sub characters too, none are safe and there doesn't seem to be a definitive objective for any specific protagonist. They all have goals, but you don't know which one you are supposed to follow - and if you fall in love with a character like Tyrion Lannister, you are likely to find him dead later on. Then there is Cersey who you want to die, so she will probably be alive for a while. 

At this point I slowly started to lose interest and I could not finish _A dance with Dragons_ ... too much junk I didn't want to read was filling my head and half the characters I actually cared about were dead. The remaining ones looked likely to die or trapped in situations they didn't like, leaving only the youngest Stark girl to root for. I closed the book.

BUT...

That book is hugely successful and to me, it is just a piece of timeline plucked out of a world the author created. No real story/plot, just a view into the magnificently created world.


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## StevieG (Aug 10, 2013)

Well Kev, 

I must say I am disappointed that from all the works of yours I have read over the years you didn't find GoT a fantastic and gripping read, I find that GRRM has found a missing link in many of the books I read, and that is you just don't know what will happen next. Most of the time I'm well ahead of the story in my own mind second guessing the author an find I'm usually right. however with GoT you just can't. And the plot is the title. Game of Thrones - You live or you die. everybody's playing the game if they believe it or not. And its the same in life today. Everyone is making secret alliances and playing politics and in the end you win or you loose. 

I hope you re-read the series and give it a second chance. 

~Steven


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## BryanJ62 (Aug 10, 2013)

You can achieve anything with great writing. A great writer could write a best seller about a blade of grass on a summer day. It all comes down to the writing.


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## TheYellowMustang (Aug 10, 2013)

Greimour said:


> "What the hell, they are all main characters but all sub characters too, none are safe and there doesn't seem to be a definitive objective for any specific protagonist. They all have goals, but you don't know which one you are supposed to follow - and if you fall in love with a character like Tyrion Lannister, you are likely to find him dead later on. Then there is Cersey who you want to die, so she will probably be alive for a while.



That's the beauty of it. It's unpredictable. None of the characters are safe. I'm so happy you didn't post any spoilers that hasn't happened on the show yet, because I would've killed you. All other shows have certain characters that you KNOW are safe. GOT doesn't. "You don't know which one you are supposed to follow" - exactly. And I love that they don't shove that in you face: THIS is the person you should cheer for, none of the others! There are several characters that may actually "win" in the end, because you don't know which of them the writers want you to root for and you don't know which of them are going to die next season. It's the beauty of GOT my friend.


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## Greimour (Aug 10, 2013)

@ Steven.

Yeah, I did find it gripping, up until the last book... and I enjoyed it. I decided I would rather see how it continues on screen rather than in the book, and perhaps afterward read it once more. We'll see... my point was that in an ideal plot format, the MC is introduced rather quickly - like in a film it is supposed to be within 12minutes minimum. Then they are supposed to be given a direct drive that leads the story throughout. After they are dragged into the story, usually from an outside source that doesn't care whether they want it or not, they they try to fix a situation and make it worse. The process is repeated until the climax, where they are about to lose everything and then miraculously win. That's basically a standard plot for every kind of story - including a game of chess. Pawns, Kings, Queens, War, main characters, twists, upsets... a game of chess is quite literally a story being told with a plot.

So, yeah, Game Of Thrones didn't follow that plan, but I did see the appeal to it.

@ YellowMustang

Where you said: "exactly, and thats what I love about GoT" > that's also the only thing that kept me reading the book the further in I went. ^_^ I truly enjoyed it up to a Dance With Dragons. I just felt I was being fed information during that book rather than experiencing the adventure; which was why I gave up on it. I dunno, maybe if I give it another try I will make it to the end next time and change my opinion ^_^


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## TheYellowMustang (Aug 10, 2013)

Greimour said:


> Where you said: "exactly, and thats what I love about GoT" > that's also the only thing that kept me reading the book the further in I went. ^_^ I truly enjoyed it up to a Dance With Dragons. I just felt I was being fed information during that book rather than experiencing the adventure; which was why I gave up on it. I dunno, maybe if I give it another try I will make it to the end next time and change my opinion ^_^



That's what I've heard, but I haven't read them myself. Honestly, I just think that the show is so good that I don't want to read the books because I don't want any spoilers. I feel like that might be a bit backwards, but..


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