# Do you think it's worth trying to fix plot holes, or should I just send it in?



## ironpony (Sep 16, 2018)

I keep trying to make my story better by fixing plot holes, but wonder if I should just send it in with the plot holes and hope people like and that it sells.  But what do you think, are they worth fixing, or not really since closing one just seems to open up another and all?


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## Kyle R (Sep 17, 2018)

Get it to the point where you (not others, but _you_) are happy with it.

Then, send it out.

After that, take a deep breath, exhale, then start writing your next story. :encouragement:


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## Solus (Sep 17, 2018)

Well, as long as the story is internally consistent (or consistently inconsistent), there should be no problem. 
Internal inconsistencies, however, are a different story. Nothing breaks immersion faster than characters being able to do something one moment, and later being incapable of doing the very same thing due to plot reasons. 
Especially games suffer from this, in my opinion.

Other than that I fully agree with Kyle R


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## ironpony (Sep 17, 2018)

Okay thanks, well it's hard to tell.  I think the characters are overall consistent I think.  But I find that I may have plot holes do to legal reasons, and how the law works, where I have sacrifice legal consistencies, in order to have a stronger theme.  So does legal consistencies matter just as much as character consistencies?


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## Solus (Sep 17, 2018)

I would advise you to look at the books of J.K. Rowling about Harry Potter. They have ridiculous amounts of plot-holes, but honestly, since the characters and story are consistent, it is still a good story and despite its flaws, I like it. 

My point is, so long as your story is good, very few are going to care about the plot-holes that to some extent are inevitably going to be in every story. Don't get me wrong, a character being able to walk on water in one chapter, and then drowning in the next without any explanation kills immersion. But like in this example, if it is not obvious enough that it bothers you, then it most likely is not going to bother your audience, and if it makes for stronger characters, I'd say you should go for it.

Best of luck with your story


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## Ralph Rotten (Sep 17, 2018)

If you don't want to have your plot holes pointed out in a review on Amazon, then you would wanna fix 'em.
Those kind of reviews can murder your book in its sleep.
For every bad review, it takes 5 five-star reviews to overcome the damage, but if shoppers see that bad review up front then they won't buy, and you'll never have the chance to overcome the damage.

Maybe you should just write this book for practice. People always wanna publish that first book, but the reality is that they prolly shouldn't. The first 200,000 words are just practice. Until then you are really just an unconscious-incompetent.*  



*that's a fancy business term meaning that you're so green that you don't even know you are not competent.


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## Kyle R (Sep 17, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> If you don't want to have your plot holes pointed out in a review on Amazon, then you would wanna fix 'em.


I agree that, as writers, we should strive to write to the best of our abilities.

However, we should also accept the (unfortunate) fact that bad reviews are unavoidable. Some readers will simply _not_ like your work, no matter what you do.

You could polish a story for thirty years straight, until your eyeballs bleed, until it's so fine-tuned that you practically hear angels sing whenever you glance at the words. Some readers are _still_ going to think it's utter crap. It's just the nature of the craft.

And if you're one of the lucky authors who manages to become recognizable? Look out. Those scathing, one-star reviews are going to streak your way like heat-seeking missiles. :grief:

Trying to please everyone is an impossible task, and it's one of the quickest paths toward self-doubt, frustration, and dejection.

I say: hammer on that story until you love it, and damn the naysayers. If _you_ love it, there'll be others who love it too. They're the ones you're writing for. :encouragement:


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## ironpony (Sep 17, 2018)

Okay thanks.  This isn't my first story, as I have written other ones before, but I feel like this should be the first I actually try to send out.  I'm writing a screenplay actually.

It's just I keep putting it a away for a while, then work on other things, then come back to it.  When I come back, I find that I feel not a lot happens after the changes I made and putting it away for a while, and I say... that's it?  And what does happen maybe could be better.

But I was told before that it's too complicated and I need to cut down, so maybe it's a good thing that not as much happens, as long as it's simple, and keeps moving towards an ending?


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## Ralph Rotten (Sep 17, 2018)

"However, we should also accept the (unfortunate) fact that bad reviews are unavoidable. Some readers will simply not like your work, no matter what you do"


10-9?
Kyle, I'll agree that all writers get bad reviews sooner or later.
But bad reviews that say things like "this story is full of plot holes" or "this book is poorly edited" are totally avoidable, and should be avoided at ALL COSTS. Sure, there are always the critic-trolls, but fixing plot holes is low-hanging fruit. 

Pony; write that story, then write another, and another, but don't publish one until it shines like the top of the Chrysler building. The only thing worse than the regret of never publishing, is the feeling of publishing a turd.  Trust me, I've published a few steamers.


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## ironpony (Sep 17, 2018)

Okay thanks.  How do I know if it shines like the top of the Chrysler building though?


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## Kyle R (Sep 18, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> But bad reviews that say things like "this story is full of plot holes" or "this book is poorly edited" are totally avoidable, and should be avoided at ALL COSTS. Sure, there are always the critic-trolls, but fixing plot holes is low-hanging fruit.


Poor editing can certainly be avoided, yes.

Plot holes are a bit trickier. A lot depends on who's identifying these so-called holes, and how much weight the author is willing to give to their opinion. Some reader feedback is worth paying attention to. Some is better off being ignored.

A lot also depends on how much work the writer has put into the project. Feedback is great to a certain extent. But if the writer continually seeks it and applies it, the story will start to lose its shape. It'll resemble the original work less and less, and become more of an amalgam of reader suggestions—and with each mutation, new problems are likely to surface for the author to solve.

Eventually, a writer needs to shut the door on the stream of input, satisfy oneself with the story, and put that final THE END stamp on it. Otherwise, the cycle of rewriting will never stop. :cower:

If you keep seeking feedback, you'll always find someone who'll suggest a different way to write it.


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## Sam (Sep 18, 2018)

Send it in with plot holes = instant rejection.


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## Ralph Rotten (Sep 18, 2018)

Kyle, now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
If Pony can see the plot holes, then so will everyone else.


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## Kyle R (Sep 18, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Kyle, now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
> If Pony can see the plot holes, then so will everyone else.


If this is the same story that I believe it is, then Iron's been wrestling with the plot of it for over three years now.

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm arguing for him to find the confidence to finally finish the work, instead of perpetually worrying about what others might think of the plot, or any supposed "holes" that they might find in it.

At some point, a writer needs to say, "Yes, I like my story the way it is"—even if some readers don't—and finally pull that trigger.


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## Ralph Rotten (Sep 18, 2018)

"Okay thanks. How do I know if it shines like the top of the Chrysler building though?"



You'll know.
For me, it's when I can't just flip through the book without stopping somewhere and getting lost in the story. Usually I am amazed that I wrote something that good.

Then I run it past my beta testers.


PS; I actually stole that line about the Chrysler building from a musical.


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## Ralph Rotten (Sep 18, 2018)

Kyle; You'd be right, except he intends to send this in for publication. I believe he mentioned it elsewhere in the thread.


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## ironpony (Sep 18, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Kyle, now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
> If Pony can see the plot holes, then so will everyone else.



Well I don't really see the plot holes, actually, it's not until others point them out, that I try to do something about them and then I sort of see what they are talking about, but I need others to point them out to me.


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## moderan (Sep 18, 2018)

Then you need to hire an editor before you even think about publishing.


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## ironpony (Sep 18, 2018)

Oh okay, I thought editors mostly do editing, but do they come up with plot hole solutions and get really creative with story changes then?


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## Plasticweld (Sep 18, 2018)

Editors point out mistakes and errors. Beta readers point out holes in the plot line, neither will write the story for you.


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## ironpony (Sep 18, 2018)

Oh okay, well I can just rewrite the plot after beta readers point out the holes, but it seems this keeps happening.  Will their always be plot holes, and you can't just fill one without opening another?


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## moderan (Sep 19, 2018)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, I thought editors mostly do editing, but do they come up with plot hole solutions and get really creative with story changes then?



It depends on what you hire an editor to do. Some of us work as story doctors into the bargain.



Plasticweld said:


> Editors point out mistakes and errors. Beta readers point out holes in the plot line, neither will write the story for you.



Um, not really. The last part, yeah, but see above. What you're talking about is strictly 'copy-editing' and not the whole enchilada.





ironpony said:


> Oh okay, well I can just rewrite the plot after beta readers point out the holes, but it seems this keeps happening.  Will their always be plot holes, and you can't just fill one without opening another?



Wow. You're really new to this.


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## ironpony (Sep 19, 2018)

Okay thanks.  So are beta-readers not suppose to do that then, when you say I am new to this?


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## Kyle R (Sep 19, 2018)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, well I can just rewrite the plot after beta readers point out the holes, but it seems this keeps happening.


These days, my policy is to get reader feedback _once_. Any suggestions I receive are considered. Some are applied. Others are ignored.

After that, there's no more reader feedback. I do a final edit, and the story's done. This way, it's impossible to get stuck in a rewrite loop—which is what I was talking about earlier in this thread.

If you keep seeking feedback, you'll keep getting suggestions to change it. Always.

The trick is to learn when to _stop_ seeking feedback, and to be confident enough to use your own judgement. :encouragement:


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## TL Murphy (Sep 19, 2018)

Hey dude, it's your story. If you think there are plot holes then it isn't finished. Why would you even want to send it out? What's your goal anyway?


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## Ralph Rotten (Sep 19, 2018)

Old writing adage; Write what you know, and research the hell out of whatever you don't.


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## moderan (Sep 19, 2018)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  So are beta-readers not suppose to do that then, when you say I am new to this?



What does this even mean? Sentences like this are why I cast the shade. And it's patently obvious that you're new to writing. Not that being new is a bad thing but I find this all highly questionable. Any samples of this actual writing available?


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## ironpony (Sep 19, 2018)

What I meant is, are the beta readers jobs to point out the plot wholes, normally.  I have sections of the story available to read, it's just that there are plot gaps, so not sure if it would make sense without a lot of explanation since I need to fill in the gaps, to get from here to there.  I have a beginning and a pay off, just need to fill in some gaps in between cause not sure how to get from point A to point Z all the way.

You know what I could do instead of having the main character having to jump through so many complicated hoops that involve lots of research, which seems to lead to plot holes, what if I had just the main character break into one of the character's homes, in a mask, with gloves and a gun, and just threaten to kill him unless he talks...

Cause this would be a shortcut, and would make everything less complicated.  As far as writing what I know, I don't know torture, but torturing information out of someone, would be easier than all these complicated technical obstacles that get in the way of the plot.

However, readers might not like how the main character decides to make such a drastic move, just because he didn't want to figure out a different way.  Plus torture alerts the villains that you are onto them as well, which is the downside of it.  But at the time same time, it does get him the info a lot faster, just not sure if readers would think it was a cop out, since I did not bother to continue doing research, till I found something that would work for the plot in a different way.


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## moderan (Sep 19, 2018)

The readers don't care about any of that. They just want a good story. And that's what beta readers help to do, determine what is good. Mine generally just read the story and make suggestions as to what might work better or alternatively.
Generally speaking, one does the research before starting the story, unless you manage to paint yourself into a corner.


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## Kyle R (Sep 20, 2018)

ironpony said:


> However, readers might not like how the main character decides to make such a drastic move, just because he didn't want to figure out a different way.
> ...
> (I'm) just not sure if readers would think it was a cop out, since I did not bother to continue doing research, till I found something that would work for the plot in a different way.



I'm going to be harsh in this post (which isn't normally like me), so forgive me for this brief lapse in character. The harshness is completely well-intentioned.

You worry too damn much about what readers would think. Readers are not God. They aren't authorities, either. Who the hell are they? Do they have credentials in this field to boast of? Accomplishments to flaunt? Have they spent as much time with this story as you have?

_You_ are the god of your story. _You_ write what _you want_ to write, and readers fall the hell in line.

If they don't like it, so be it. They can go flitter off somewhere else. If _you_ like it, someone else inevitably will. That's who you're writing for: yourself, and those who like the same things that you do.

It's not your job to curtail your creativity to fit the preconceptions of readers. It's not your role to write a story and then ask, with wrung hands, "Um, is this okay? Do my ideas meet with your approval? Golly gee, do I have your permission to continue?"

Screw that.

Write what excites you. Write what thrills you.

If readers suggest something you agree with, thank them for the insight and roll with it.

If readers suggest something that _doesn't_ work for you—something that you _don't_ agree with, something that you'd rather _not_ do—thank them for their time, then find the damned confidence (someway, _some_how) to quietly tell them to fuck off.

Be proud of your story, and the creative decisions that you've made with it. Writing a story is an incredible thing. You've taken something from your imagination and formed it into a reality.

It's your baby; your beautiful, perfectly flawed creation. Nurture it. Protect it. Own it.


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## Sam (Sep 20, 2018)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  So are beta-readers not suppose to do that then, when you say I am new to this?



I've already said this to you several times during the numerous posts you've made over the course of the last year: you're putting the cart before the horse. 

Your story is one of the most complicated (note: it is not complex) stories I've ever encountered. It's quite ludicrous the number of times you've posted threads about plot twists, or how the police are going to figure things out, or some other thing you were unable to solve yourself and came here for advice. You can't even wrap your head around half of the stuff you're writing and it's patently obvious, but you persist with these crazy storylines and plot twists. I've been writing for over twenty years and I love writing complex novels, but I wouldn't take on what you're trying to do on my best day. 

Harsh is the only language that you seem to understand, so let me lay it out for you: you do not have the experience or skill to write this story coherently or cohesively at this stage of your writing journey. You should start with something simple and learn how to weave multiple characters and storylines into your novel organically. Not everyone can pants a complex novel. You may need to do some planning to keep your story straight and avoid plot holes to start with. And you need to figure out how to solve these intricate problems you've created, by yourself, without the crutch of relying on us. That is the biggest problem you have. 

If you keep relying on people to get your story straight, you'll never learn to do it yourself.


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## ironpony (Sep 20, 2018)

Okay thanks.  Sorry, I just don't understand what makes the story so complicated.  There is one main plot, and one subplot, so how is that overly complicated really.  Plus I cut a lot out since I first started and it's much more simplified compared to before.  As far as thrillers go, I thought my story was more simple than a lot of them out there, with even less characters now, than a lot of them, or at least that is how I see it.

  As for putting the cart before the horse, I changed a lot of the story around, and rewrote a lot of it from the ground up.  So I did put the horse before the cart.  Now I am told I have a plot hole though, so I have to reinvent the horse, but don't want to change the whole cart around with it if necessary.

If I must reinvent the horse, isn't it possible to arrive at the same cart, as long as I do it right?  I took the changes that were recommended to me before to keep the story more simple, so how I don't think it's near as complicated as it was before.


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## ironpony (Sep 20, 2018)

Kyle R said:


> I'm going to be harsh in this post (which isn't normally like me), so forgive me for this brief lapse in character. The harshness is completely well-intentioned.
> 
> You worry too damn much about what readers would think. Readers are not God. They aren't authorities, either. Who the hell are they? Do they have credentials in this field to boast of? Accomplishments to flaunt? Have they spent as much time with this story as you have?
> 
> ...



Okay thanks, it's just I was told before to kill my babies, and let the story be what it is, naturally, and not what I want it to be.

There is something I don't get about the whole putting the horse before the cart thing.  Cause since I am writing a screenplay, I will watch other movies, and I can tell that the ending was decided way in advance, and the writers built into it.  They actually put the cart before the horse, to know where they wanted to end the story at.

A lot of these endings in other stories are pre-planned, and there is no way the writers arrived their arbitrarily.  Plus after reading John Truby's The Anatomy of Story, he says the same thing and that normally, you need to decide your ending early on for the rest of the story to go right.

 So isn't deciding the ending you want in advance, and building into it, a good thing then, cause then you do not arrive at a random, arbitrary ending, but a better thought out one?


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## TL Murphy (Sep 20, 2018)

What Sam means by "putting the cart before the horse", at least this is what I believe he is saying, is that you are trying to weave complexity into your writing before you've become proficient enough at writing to do that. I haven't read anything of yours yet so I really don't know, that just seems to be the gist of what he and others are saying.  Why don't you try to write some simple short stories before you tackle something with intricate plot entanglements. Nail down the basic elements of telling a story, first. If you read the great short story writers like Hemingway and Flannery O'Conner and others, you'll see that most of it has pretty simple plots.


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## ironpony (Sep 20, 2018)

Oh okay.  I really didn't think my story was that complicated though, unless you mean in terms of the legal system, since I get stuck at a lot of obstacles involving how the legal system works, but as far as plot goes, I thought it was overall simple, especially since I cut a lot of the plot out since I first started it, and now only have the main plot, and one subplot.

I've written short stories before.  I actually find short stories to be more of a challenge cause I couldn't end them in time, and they just end up getting long, cause I couldn't fit a whole story into such a short time frame, and have it make sense, cause the characters needed time to develop and grow before being reaching certain points, and things like that.  So I find writing short stories more challenging, or at least so far.


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## Kyle R (Sep 21, 2018)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks, it's just I was told before to kill my babies, and let the story be what it is, naturally, and not what I want it to be.



Do you always do what you're told? :-k



			
				ironpony said:
			
		

> Plus after reading John Truby's The Anatomy of Story, he says the same thing and that normally, you need to decide your ending early on for the rest of the story to go right.



Truby's approach is like any other writer's approach: it'll work for some writers, and it won't work for others. I'm one of the writers who find Truby's approach to be worthless. For me, his approach is stiff, formulaic, and unnecessarily pedantic. I read the book once, then tossed it into my digital trash bin. Others, though, might find it to be pure gold.

This is part of being a writer: you'll have to find the path that works for you. Sometimes that means taking advice. Other times, that means rejecting advice. The rest of the time, it comes down to trial and error.

How many stories have you written to completion? Like Ralph mentioned, most writers need a lot of practice to reach a fair level of competency at storytelling. It took me several dozen short stories (and nearly as many trunked novels) before I got a decent handle on what works for me and what doesn't.

The confusion, frustration, and struggling that you're going through right now is pretty typical of a newer writer. The conflict tends to go away as one gets more experience (which means that the more stories you finish, the better you'll get at it, and the less questions you'll have).

So my advice is to finish the story, and to stop stressing over all the details. Write the story that you want to write. Find a way for yourself to be satisfied with it (_you_, not others). Then, send it out (if you want to) and begin your next story. Each completed story is another step toward mastery.

"Okay thanks, but ..." — nope. No buts. [-X There's only forward progress from here on out: you, writing the story that you want to write. :encouragement:


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## Sam (Sep 21, 2018)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  Sorry, I just don't understand what makes the story so complicated.



You're having a laugh, right? 

You've literally posted between fifty to one hundred threads asking us how to solve problems you've created and cannot solve yourself, and you're asking me what's complicated about your story. 

_Ex nihilo nihil fit. _


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## ironpony (Sep 21, 2018)

Okay thanks.  I've written several short stories over the years, as well as two other feature length screenplays, and figure I would try to put a lot more effort into this one.

As for Truby's method, I like the idea of coming up with the ending early on, as I have an ending I am very satisfied with.  It's just I am not sure how to get there plot wise, as I have a gap in the middle section.  I keep coming up with different ways to try to get there, but haven't found one yet that works, or at least doesn't suffer from complication and having to know a lot about the legal system.  So trying to find a less complicated way of getting to the end.  I can keep poking at it and try new things.

Every time I try to come up with mistakes for the villains to make, or flaws, readers tell me that the villains wouldn't do that cause they are too smart for that.  So I need to find a way for the readers to accept character flaws as well, without them thinking the characters are stupid.


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## Kyle R (Sep 22, 2018)

ironpony said:


> I've written several short stories over the years, as well as two other feature length screenplays...


That's good! Keep at it. :encouragement:



			
				ironpony said:
			
		

> It's just I am not sure how to get there plot wise ... I keep coming up with different ways to try to get there, but haven't found one yet that works ...


Welcome to the world of being a writer. Nobody said it would be easy. Pretty much every writer you'll come across encounters difficulties in their work. The experienced ones know that it comes with the territory. They don't whine or moan or perpetually ask others for solutions—they just sit at their desk and keep hammering at it until they figure it the hell out.



			
				ironpony said:
			
		

> Every time I try to come up with mistakes for the villains to make, or flaws, readers tell me that the villains wouldn't do that cause ...


:cower: There you go again, letting readers bully you around.

How well do you know your story? How well do you know your characters? At this point, you should know what your characters would or wouldn't do better than any reader.


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## ironpony (Sep 22, 2018)

I don't think the readers are bullying me around, but trying to give me solid advice, I think, or at least hope.

As for my characters, I feel I know what they would and wouldn't do.  But if a reader says that what my character is doing isn't enough to solve the problem and that character has to do what is necessary to unpaint himself out of a corner, even if it's something that character wouldn't do, then what... Do I find a new corner to paint him in that is less difficult to get out of, or do I change the character that he is willing to let the ends justify the means more?]

Before I wrote it so that the main character reads the lawyer's files on the case, and finds out that the lawyer's client told him details of the crime, so that the lawyer could plan a better defense, and the lawyer took notes.  However, I was told that this was a plot hole, cause 1.  a client wouldn't tell the lawyer details of the crime, cause that would mean the lawyer would have to share his evidence with the prosecution, and that 2.  the lawyer would not write it down, even if the conversation was privileged.

But maybe I could go back to that, and is there any reason why a client would tell the lawyer details of the crime, even if the motive was to help the lawyer prepare a better defense, and that the lawyer would write it down, cause he likes to take notes to remember things?  Or is this still a plot hole, regardless?


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## Ralph Rotten (Sep 22, 2018)

Like I've said before; the first 200,000 words are just practice.
Perhaps you should just write this story, consider it good practice, and move on to other projects, continuing to develop your skills as you go.
There a few multi-published writers in this forum who will admit their regret at publishing their first novels (myself included.)
If this story has been holding up your writing for 3 years, it may be time for you to look beyond it.
Not everything a writer writes gets published. Some stuff ends up parked on a hard drive for all infinity.


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## TL Murphy (Sep 22, 2018)

There's an old adage, maybe it's a superstition but it seems to hold true for me. The more you talk about what you are writing, the harder it is to write it. It's almost as if the story or poem is bottled up inside us, hidden under the complexities of living. Writing is a way to release it. But if you talk about it too much, you release it anyway and there's nothing left to write about. Writing discussions are important to learn techniques of craft, but only the author can forge the story.


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## ironpony (Sep 22, 2018)

But this isn't my first screenplay, as I wrote three others before this so I don't feel I am sending off my first out there though.


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## moderan (Sep 22, 2018)

...


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## ironpony (Sep 22, 2018)

Yeah I have written them over the years.  I guess what I could do is stop asking people I know if the plot makes sense, cause maybe that causes people to look too hard and anyone will find plot holes in any story, if you look hard enough?


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## moderan (Sep 22, 2018)

> Yeah I have written them over the years.


...


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## ironpony (Sep 23, 2018)

Well what's with having to prove myself?  I never once said this was my first story, so it was just an incorrect assumption.


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## Phil Istine (Sep 23, 2018)

*Moderator note:

Hi guys.
Could we keep to the subject at hand please?

Thank you.
*


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## Kyle R (Sep 23, 2018)

ironpony said:


> I don't think the readers are bullying me around, but trying to give me solid advice, I think, or at least hope.



Readers usually try to give good advice. Most of the time, though, their advice (while well-intentioned) is poor.

As Neil Gaiman wisely said: "When (readers) tell you exactly what they think is wrong and how to fix it, they are almost always wrong."



			
				ironpony said:
			
		

> ... if a reader says that what my character is doing isn't enough to solve the problem and that character has to do what is necessary to unpaint himself out of a corner, even if it's something that character wouldn't do, then what... Do I find a new corner to paint him in that is less difficult to get out of, or do I change the character that he is willing to let the ends justify the means more?


I'm a "character first" kind of writer, so, to me, the notion of changing the character to service the plot sounds absurd. :grief: My advice would be to make sure that the choices made are in line with their character—and that they're justified to the reader.

The reader has to understand their motivations.



			
				ironpony said:
			
		

> Before I wrote it so that the main character reads the lawyer's files on the case, and finds out that the lawyer's client told him details of the crime, so that the lawyer could plan a better defense, and the lawyer took notes.  However, I was told that this was a plot hole, cause 1.  a client wouldn't tell the lawyer details of the crime, cause that would mean the lawyer would have to share his evidence with the prosecution, and that 2.  the lawyer would not write it down, even if the conversation was privileged.



How well do you know your main character? Would he tell the lawyer details of the crime or not?

How well do you know your lawyer character? Would he document this conversation or not?

If you know your characters and what they would or wouldn't do, then that's the only thing you need to know. Any reader feedback on this plot point is completely unnecessary.

How well do you know your characters? This question deserves to be repeated: _How well do you know your characters?_ And one more time, for good measure: *How well do you know your characters?*


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## Jack of all trades (Sep 23, 2018)

I disagree about what's been said about reader feedback.

I have gotten rock solid feedback from readers who were not writers. The best kind of feedback.

Readers have always told me *where* problems lie. Better than writers, who often are trying to impose their style or preferences onto the piece.

I agree that characters are the foundation of a good story! 

My advice to the OP : 

If those who are giving you feedback are writers, or wannbe writers, it's possible they are trying to make your work fit their preferences. You may want to give the feedback less consideration. Unless you particularly enjoy their works. Then give it more. 

If those giving you feedback are simply readers, and they like that genre, give their feedback some thought. If they don't like the genre, they may be biased against the work for that reason, so give the feedback less consideration. 

And no matter *who* is giving the feedback, remember that this is *your* work and, at the end of the day, *you* are the one who needs to be satisfied with it! It's not possible to please everyone, so make sure you are pleasing at least yourself. 

Any advice can be well intentioned, but wrong for you. Even mine. Use what resonates with *you*.

Plenty, and I mean *plenty*, of books, movies and shows have had plot holes, but still been enjoyed by thousands! Sometimes you just have to decide which plot holes are small enough to not be worth worrying about.


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## Ralph Rotten (Sep 23, 2018)

Kyle R said:


> I'm a "character first" kind of writer, so, to me, the notion of changing the character to service the plot sounds absurd. :grief: My advice would be to make sure that the choices made are in line with their character—and that they're justified to the reader.




Absolutely agree!  The story is just the stage upon which the actors perform.


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## ironpony (Sep 23, 2018)

Oh okay thanks.  Well so far I have asked writers and plain readers their opinions and got a mix of both.

As for knowing my characters, the one who is arrested could tell the lawyer details of the crime cause he is nervous and wants the lawyer to be able to know things to have a better defense.  The lawyer could advise him that he will be able to put up a better defense if he knows more, and that although he is writing it down, so he can keep track of everything better, it's a privileged conversation and confidential and no one will be allowed to use it against the defendant, or against the people he is talking about in the file.

The lawyer and this character who are arrested are minor characters and do not get much plot time.  This conversation between the lawyer and the defendant isn't even seen cause the main character cop, is illegally looking into the lawyer's files later to find out what really happened.

So the reader doesn't get to see this conversation as I fear it would give away too much for later, for when the main character investigates things.  But the reader not seeing it beforehand is causing disbelief perhaps.  Or if they still saw the conversation between the lawyer and the defendant, maybe they still wouldn't believe it.

It's easy for me to know my main characters and what they would and wouldn't do.  But when it comes to minor characters such as the lawyer and the defendant, who do not have near as much time, I feel that I am not sure, as I can be much more flexible on how the characters operate, compared to the more main ones, if that makes sense.


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## Ralph Rotten (Sep 23, 2018)

When I am trying to figure out where to take a story, I look at the scenario through the eyes of each character.  Often I realize that they would not do that thing because it is contrary to their perspective.


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## ironpony (Sep 23, 2018)

Yeah that makes sense.

My problem is though is that if I feel a character would do a certain something, the reader disagrees.  How do I make the reader agree that that character would do that, or what is the trick to doing that for the reader?


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## Solus (Sep 28, 2018)

That is probably the hardest thing in writing, so I won't be able to give a conclusive answer, however I have some suggestions (you may very well have heard these before). 

Firstly, does the previous actions of the character allow for this action? If the character has made a personal vow to not kill, maybe don't make him throw people of rooftops. 

Secondly, does the character have any reason to preform this action? Why does the character do what he has chosen to do. If the character is driven by greed, then altruism won't be much of a reason for said character.

Now, people are rarely consistent, so if you want to introduce any exceptions, go ahead. Just make sure that when you do, that it is addressed in some way. 

Good luck with that story of yours 

:bigsmurf:


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## ironpony (Sep 29, 2018)

Oh okay, thanks!

Um, I don't think that character consistency is a main issue I have when writing.  I feel that most of my problems, are plot holes involving the setting and not the characters, if that makes sense.  I like to simplify things.

For example, one 'plot hole' I was told about why does the villain choose to keep his incriminating materials, in a self storage facility, when he can just keep them in a much better guarded safe deposit box in a bank?  And I wrote it that way for two reasons.

1. Since I want the villains incriminating materials to be stolen, it's easier to rob a self-storage facility than a bank, and it's just much simpler to write.  I wanted it to be stolen without the anyone noticing right away and without the authorities being called right away.  It's easier to rob a storage unit, while all alone, compared to breaking into a bank, which is much more complicated to do, and it just over complicates the plot.

and 2.  It's less budget to shoot, because it's easier to shoot in a self storage facility, than an actual bank, or building a bank and a bank vault set.

So the plot holes are not really character inconsistencies, I don't think, but why a character would choose something like a self storage facility over a bank.  Cause it doesn't over complicate the plot, or the budget, that's why.  So it's character decisions based on making the plot simple, rather than characters going out of consistency, if that makes sense.


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## ironpony (Oct 1, 2018)

Well after thinking about it, I think my issue is, is that the readers do not buy the characters begin with, rather than changing their minds on characters later on.  So what is the trick to getting a reader to buy into a character, that 
they have no prior introduction too, since these are the introductions?

A lot of times when readers make suggestions, they would say that this character would do this instead, but they do not say why the character would do that instead.  They just say I should do it cause it will fix the plot hole and it will make more sense, but they don't say why.  So should I take suggestions and have characters behave in a way, in which I don't understand, and hope that the reader is right?  Or should I only make changes if I can get confirmed whys, as to why a character would behave differently in a situation?

Or I could just do what Kyle R said and choose to be happy with it and own it and not care what readers think too much, but do you think that's risky, to not care if the readers say their are problems?


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## Ralph Rotten (Oct 1, 2018)

When I say that I try to look at the story thru the eyes of my characters, what I mean is that I actually walk through the scenario as each of the major players, talking the dialog from their perspective.
I think to myself "Alex is a degenerate stoner with a degree in infidelity, he would look at this situation as...he would see these guys as...he would want/not want to do that thing because he is busy whoring...
I try to become each o the characters and figure out where their head would be.
Less plot holes that way. Better character interactions too.


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## ironpony (Oct 1, 2018)

Okay thanks.  But doesn't dialogue come after you have already came out up with the whole plot and all the character decisions?  It seems to me that coming up with the plot first is natural, than dialogue afterwards, unless I am wrong?


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## Theglasshouse (Oct 1, 2018)

Give the criminals a poor criminal background since most people who steal do need the money and don't use their education to steal. Apparently, that does not sound like a plot hole and sounds believable to me although I have not read the script. Plots holes may be more subjective than you think. Why not post the reader complaints and plot holes, and have the forum members give their opinions? BTW, the criminal can also be uneducated. Generally, criminals are not smart. A highly intelligent criminal would be very rare. Usually, they are considered dumb in the educated sense but maybe they are street smart.


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## ironpony (Oct 1, 2018)

Okay thanks.  Well the criminals have gotten away with several crimes so far before the story has even started, so if they are to make a mistake, it should be natural for them, and not inconsistent of course.  I have posted some of the scenarios before as I went along in the writing, that readers mentioned.

It's the ones I posted before.


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## Newman (Oct 2, 2018)

ironpony said:


> I keep trying to make my story better by fixing plot holes, but wonder if I should just send it in with the plot holes and hope people like and that it sells.  But what do you think, are they worth fixing, or not really since closing one just seems to open up another and all?



There is only one right answer here: fix them. Get it as good as you can before submission.


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## Kyle R (Oct 2, 2018)

ironpony said:


> Or I could just do what Kyle R said and choose to be happy with it and own it and not care what readers think too much, but do you think that's risky, to not care if the readers say their are problems?



*Option A*: Worry about what readers think, continually question and doubt your own creative decisions, repeatedly rewrite your plot to the point where it's not even your own story anymore, but an amalgam of reader suggestions—many of which you aren't even completely happy with, but have accepted because you believe the readers know something that you don't. :disturbed:

or

*Option B*: _Don't_ worry about what readers think, be _proud_ of your creative decisions, _finish_ your story and _move on_ to the next one—confident in the knowledge that with each new tale you write, your storytelling abilities will improve that much more. ride:


Me, I'd choose Option B any day of the week.


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## ironpony (Oct 2, 2018)

Okay thanks.  However, how do you know the story will make sense though?  Since I'm writing a screenplay, I am producing it as well, and with all the money being put into it, how do you know it makes sense without any outside input, when you have money riding on it?


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## Ralph Rotten (Oct 2, 2018)

Producing? Ooooh what kinda media?
What format are you planning on presenting this in? Stage, video, YouTube...
Knowing the medium you want to present it in could help us to better advise on this story.
There different ways to tell a story, depending on the delivery method.
I'd tell a story a lot differently for a stage play than I would for a video.


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## ironpony (Oct 2, 2018)

Video.


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## Ralph Rotten (Oct 2, 2018)

Like video for YouTube or video for Netflix?


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## ironpony (Oct 2, 2018)

Well I was hoping to send it into film festivals but if Netflix is the best I can do, I will settle for that.


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## Ralph Rotten (Oct 2, 2018)

Okay, helps to envision the project better.
I think we have all been advising you how to write a novel, when you are really writing a movie.

The benefit of writing a video is that the format allows a high degree of SWAG.
A lot of the details you have been agonizing about in these posts are things that can be totally SWAG'ed.


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## ironpony (Oct 2, 2018)

Oh sorry, I said before on here that I am writing a screenplay, a few times, sorry if I should have made it more clear .

SWAG, how, compared to a novel?


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## Ralph Rotten (Oct 3, 2018)

SWAG is an acronym for Scientific Wild-Ass Guess.
With Video you can SWAG a bit more.  You have more leeway in that format.


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## ironpony (Oct 3, 2018)

Yep for sure, I know what you meant by SWAG, and no that you meant leeway .  But what kind of leeway exactly when it comes to writing, is there when it comes to screenplays, compared to novels?


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## Annoying kid (Oct 3, 2018)

TL Murphy said:


> What Sam means by "putting the cart before the horse", at least this is what I believe he is saying, is that you are trying to weave complexity into your writing before you've become proficient enough at writing to do that. I haven't read anything of yours yet so I really don't know



I've read some and ironpony is way too close to the canvas. He needs to step back and take in the big picture. He shys away from the bold creative decisions because he's scared of having the wrong answer. If there is such a thing. His hesitation as a writer transfers to the characters. As such, his characters are functional, but not artistic.


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## ironpony (Oct 3, 2018)

Okay thanks.  I'll try to look at the big picture.  I am currently trying to fix one plot hole, but in doing so, I have to add more plot and more characters to fill the gap.  Basically I sometimes finding myself needing what I call 'bridge characters'.  When I have a gap in the plot, and I need to bridge the gap, that's where a bridge character comes in.

But the more I try to bridge the gaps, the more bridge characters I come up with and I feel the story may get too long and too complicated if I have too many bridge characters, especially when they have no other function in the story, than just bridging plot gaps, and that is their only reason for existing.

But maybe that is okay and normal though, when trying to fix plot holes?  Or should I try to give the bridge characters a higher purpose in the story?


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## Annoying kid (Oct 3, 2018)

You care too much about gaps and too little about fun and excitement. Both for yourself and the audience. I bet you have slow pacing because of all the bridging and police procedurals and technicalities.


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## ironpony (Oct 3, 2018)

Well the bridging does involve having more set up for sure, if I chose to leave the "plot holes" as is, in comparison.


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## Kyle R (Oct 5, 2018)

ironpony said:


> However, how do you know the story will make sense though? Since I'm writing a screenplay, I am producing it as well, and with all the money being put into it, how do you know it makes sense without any outside input, when you have money riding on it?


From what you've described, your problem isn't that your story doesn't "make sense". Your problem is that whenever a reader suggests another way to write it, you start to question your story and doubt the decisions you've made.

Most of the successful writers that I know (or have spoken to) possess a level of confidence in their writing that borders on arrogance. This is because they trust in their creative choices and believe in the directions that they've taken the narrative. Any feedback to the contrary is gratefully considered, but often dismissed.

If you don't trust in yourself, if you don't _believe_ in your story and the directions you've taken it, then of course you're going to question it whenever someone else does.

On the other hand, if you've got the utmost confidence in your work and you fully believe in its quality, then no amount of criticism or suggestion is going to change your mind.

I'm not sure what steps you need to take to find that level of confidence in your work, but it seems clear to me that you desperately need it. Find your confidence! :encouragement:

As a final note, here's something James Cameron once said that seems apt:

The main thing is just picking up a camera and making a film. That’s the most important thing. People say, “How do you get to be a filmmaker?” I say, “Go home, pick up your video camera, and make a film.” ... Because if you make a film and you put your name on it that says “Directed by,” even if it’s the worst piece of crap in the world and cost no money, everything after that, you’re a director. ... It scales up from there, but you’ve defined yourself in that role. If you can’t define yourself in that role to yourself, then you’re just chippin’ away at it, not really doing it.​


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## ironpony (Oct 7, 2018)

But the readers actually tell me it doesn't make sense though.  So isn't that a problem?


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## Kyle R (Oct 7, 2018)

ironpony said:


> But the readers actually tell me it doesn't make sense though. So isn't that a problem?



You have to pick and choose which feedback is worth paying attention to. Not all reader suggestions needs to be considered. I tend to dismiss about 90% of the suggestions I receive, including most of those from my wife. (I'm stubborn confident like that. ride

You said that readers wondered why a character stored his valuables in a storage locker instead of a bank vault. That's not a "plot hole"—that's just readers suggesting a different way to write the story. It's the kind of feedback I would ignore.

A plot hole would be if you had a character die and then inexplicably they're alive again later in the story. Or they get in a car and then exit from a plane by mistake. Or if a character's gender changes for no reason.

Plot holes are inconsistencies with the plot that literally _cannot_ logically happen. Such occurrences would be _impossible_ in the real world (like a character's clothing changing colors from one scene to the next). 

Readers suggesting alternate character decisions? Those aren't plot holes. That's just the readers trying to rewrite your story in a different way.


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## Annoying kid (Oct 7, 2018)

ironpony said:


> But the readers actually tell me it doesn't make sense though.  So isn't that a problem?



No. Ignore it and move on. You've been on many forums asking similar questions over the years and you say it still doesn't make sense. No work is without flaw, so just finish it and move onto the next one.  

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=i...v4HMizkwWmy7aQBQ&start=0&sa=N&biw=911&bih=407

Again, I am not mincing words here. There is no room for questioning this answer. 

DO NOT fix the plot holes. Keep going with the story and finish it.

I'll say it again. 

DO NOT fix these plot holes.


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## ironpony (Oct 7, 2018)

Okay thanks.  So it's pretty much normal for every story to have plot holes, here and there then, and that's okay?


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## Annoying kid (Oct 7, 2018)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  So it's pretty much normal for every story to have plot holes, here and there then, and that's okay?



Forget about being normal. Moving on will allow  you to mature as a writer instead of being stuck in an endless  cycle of second guessing yourself.


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## ironpony (Oct 7, 2018)

Yeah I guess.  It's just I am wanting this to be the first movie I produce as well, and if I put a lot of money into it, I want to make sure the story is going to make sense to audiences, if it's made.


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## Annoying kid (Oct 7, 2018)

ironpony said:


> Yeah I guess.  It's just I am wanting this to be the first movie I produce as well, and if I put a lot of money into it, I want to make sure the story is going to make sense to audiences, if it's made.



Do you have the money to put into it? If you do, this is your first movie. Meaning you're untested as a producer. So maybe don't start your career with the  complex feature length crime story that requires alot of money to invest and potentially lose?  

If you're pitching this to producers, again, ignore the plot holes, finish the draft, get it professionally edited, and pitch it. Then move onto the next.


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## ironpony (Oct 8, 2018)

No I'm not pitching it to other producers and have the money to do it myself.  I have produced and directed my own short films before, as well as worked on other poeple's movies.  This would be my first feature length, but I have to do my first feature length at some point.  It's my first feature length, but every filmmaker does the first at some point, and they usually end up having to write their first as well.  Not that I mind, I have ideas for other ones to write as well, if this one is successful.

I just don't know if it will make sense to audiences if people so far are telling me there are plot holes.


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## Annoying kid (Oct 8, 2018)

ironpony said:


> No I'm not pitching it to other producers and have the money to do it myself.  I have produced and directed my own short films before, as well as worked on other poeple's movies.



Links, or it didn't happen. 



> This would be my first feature length, but I have to do my first feature length at some point.  It's my first feature length, but every filmmaker does the first at some point, and they usually end up having to write their first as well.  Not that I mind, I have ideas for other ones to write as well, if this one is successful.
> 
> I just don't know if it will make sense to audiences if people so far are telling me there are plot holes.



So why would you have your first feature length be one that's so complicated it STILL has plotholes despite years of posting about it on at least ten different writing sites? *You could stand to lose alot of money. Do you know that? *


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## ironpony (Oct 8, 2018)

Yeah I know that but I don't think I could write anything any better, or any less complicated.  It has to be at least 90 minutes, which means the story has to get at least somewhat complicated to keep going I feel.

But it's the best one I have written so far, and the one of all my ideas, that can be done on the lowest budget. Plus I feel it's my possibly my best story, so I feel why not go with my best.  Here are some links to other short films of mine:

*MOD NOTE: (amended) LINKS RESTORED.
Please note that these links come with a content warning concerning sexual content and graphic violence.

*
*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7t5XZSz_oo&t=1s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_dNwMo32D4&t=25s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o1G_-zRltQ*

I also worked on other people's but they do not have them online for me to post links to.  I know I could stand to lose a lot of money, it's just every filmmaker has to do this when they first start out, or at least that is what I keep hearing from others.  Everyone in my film school class almost has done it so far, so it seems normal.

Plus I was told by others that I keep putting it off and keep regretting not doing it, so it's something I have to do, or I will always be thinking what if...


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## Annoying kid (Oct 8, 2018)

Something that's ridden with plotholes is your best screenplay so far? If you have so much money you're willing to spend it producing a screenplay you're not confident in (and you clearly aren't, seeing how many questions you ask), then you can afford to hire an editor. Have them fix the holes. You finish the script.


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## ironpony (Oct 8, 2018)

Okay thanks.  Before, I was told by another writer that he felt that they couldn't be fixed without changing everything around, but I can try and see if an editor can.  I didn't know it was an editors job to actually fix plot holes.


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## ironpony (Oct 9, 2018)

It seems the attitude on here may have changed as soon as I mentioned I was producing it into a movie.  Cause before I was told to own it and who cared what other people think and that that is not my audience, but now some people are saying don't put a lot of money into it, and make it into a movie without fixing the plot holes first.


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## Annoying kid (Oct 10, 2018)

ironpony said:


> It seems the attitude on here may have changed as soon as I mentioned I was producing it into a movie.  Cause before I was told to own it and who cared what other people think and that that is not my audience, but now some people are saying don't put a lot of money into it, and make it into a movie without fixing the plot holes first.



I didn't say that. 

I said finish the draft, then tell a paid editor to specifically look for the plotholes, go with what they say and leave it there. Instead of endlessly worrying about it.

OR 

Forget these plot holes for now, just finish the draft, go do something else, mature as a writer and come back to it down the road.


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## ironpony (Oct 10, 2018)

Okay thanks.  I didn't know it was part of the editor's job to fix plot holes, but I can do that then .


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