# Starting with a bang vs. not so much.



## ironpony (Jun 14, 2021)

For my screenplay, it's a crime thriller, and the first scene I open with is a crime comitted by the villains that kick starts off the remaining plot.  After the opening crime, I then introduce the main character, who is a detective that arrives at the scene to start to investigate the crime.

But I was told by readers that so far, that it's confusing as to who the main character is, because the main character is just a detective, doing regular detective stuff, and we don't know anything interesting about him at this point, so it comes off as he is interested as just any other character, rather than a protagonist, and so reader feels confused and possibly cheated later on when they find out he is the protagonist.

Therefore, I was thinking, should I introduce the protagonist before the opening, and introduce his personal life, and his marriage, etc, before showing the crime that kickstarts things off?

Or is it better to open with more of a bang, such as an opening crime with the villains then opening with a character's more quiet personal life?  Thanks for any advice on it!  I really appreciate it!


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## bdcharles (Jun 14, 2021)

ironpony said:


> For my screenplay, it's a crime thriller, and the first scene I open with is a crime comitted by the villains that kick starts off the remaining plot.  After the opening crime, I then introduce the main character, who is a detective that arrives at the scene to start to investigate the crime.
> 
> But I was told by readers that so far, that it's confusing as to who the main character is, because the main character is just a detective, doing regular detective stuff, and we don't know anything interesting about him at this point, so it comes off as he is interested as just any other character, rather than a protagonist, and so reader feels confused and possibly cheated later on when they find out he is the protagonist.
> 
> ...


You might just need to go a little deeper into the main character - perspective, depiction, etc - to ensure it's clear _he's_ the one to follow. The actual order of events sounds fine. I wouldn't go into all that marriage/personal life backstory stuff in the first instance though.


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## Olly Buckle (Jun 14, 2021)

The readers only have a script, it is a film. Everything from shot angles and closeups to music is going to tell them he is the main man, just your readers are not getting all that.


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## ironpony (Jun 14, 2021)

That's true, but I was told it's a problem at the script level, and that I need to show unique character traits for the main character right away, to make it obvious, in order for it to sell better, if that's true?


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## Steve_Rivers (Jun 14, 2021)

Off the top of my head, maybe have the detective mentioning that this is an unusual case for him (if it is) as an example. The key reason most stories are told is because that story is worth telling, as opposed to the everyday normality of life.

As @bdcharles and @Olly Buckle said, nothing sounds wrong with your setup, and the production of a TV or movie on a visual story-telling level usually makes it pretty obvious who the protagonist is.

So many stories on TV or film start with the badguy that audiences are almost hardwired now to know that if we see someone doing something evil, and we cut to the next scene, then that character is most certainly our hero.

But if you still feel unsure, and the unusual case thing isn't true, then you have to look at the character to give him something out of his everyday existence that makes him start the story from this point. Has he just got divorced and this is a new chapter in his life? Has he just been in a car crash and this is the first day back on the job and it's changed his perspective on life? You're going to have to think up stuff like these examples because the way you've started off the scenes doesn't sound like it has a single problem.


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## Theglasshouse (Jun 14, 2021)

There's an excellent guide called 45 master characters. It lists the flaws of people according to the archetype. Try that. The person who wrote that is called Victoria Lynn Schidmt.


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## ironpony (Jun 15, 2021)

Oh okay, thanks I will check it out!  Well one person told me that the main character has do something extradinary or not normal when they first appear so we know who the MC is, where as mine is just any detective doing nothing more than regular detective work when he appears.  Is that true though, that they have to do something out of the ordinary right when they first appear?


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## Steve_Rivers (Jun 15, 2021)

Not at all. Whoever told you that hasn't watched 99% of all crime dramas on TV.
Watch the movies too, most detective stories don't have the detectives doing anything particularly special. My favorite crime movie of all time, Seven, has Morgan Freeman and Brad Pitt doing nothing amazing nor out of the ordinary when we first meet them. The reason the story starts getting told from the point it does is because Freeman is about to retire and that's when the killings start happening.

You need to watch or read the genres yourself, analyze them and stick to your guns. Because not everyone's feedback is justified. There's a saying I remember someone said on another forum once "People don't like the taste of water until they've pissed in it a little themselves."
Just because _one person_ is telling you this, *it doesn't mean it's right*. It could very well be that's how _they_ want it to always start. You've had 3-4 people here telling you otherwise, so if you keep holding your work accountable to _one person's view_, then your work will end up being a mishmash of conflicting ideas and never get finished.
Sure, you want something that makes your story stand out from the crowd, but to say that then requires the character specifically doing something amazing in the first five seconds is hogwash.


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## Olly Buckle (Jun 15, 2021)

There is the 'Save the cat' approach, which is fairly common. The hero does something nice when he first appears, like saving a cat, or dropping someone a hint. It doesn't have to be a big thing, but it creates a mindset with the audience that this is a nice guy, which will persist surprisingly well, even if he does some terrible things later.
Check out Blake Snyder's book of the same name, he is an experienced screen writer who gives a good layout for a screenplay.


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## ironpony (Jun 16, 2021)

Oh okay thanks.  I can check it out.  Well the way I wrote it so far, is the hero is called to respond to the crime scene, and when he gets there, the villains are still there.  He manages to arrest one of them and the others get away.  So I guess he's not really doing something nice, but doing something for the good of the community in a sense.


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## Olly Buckle (Jun 16, 2021)

You should certainly check it out, he gives lots of detailed advice about when to make plot twists happen and that sort of thing. Of course it wouldn't apply to every movie, but it is ideal for the sort of thing you seem to be writing. 
In terms of 'save the cat' itself it would be something like giving way to let a mother and child cross the road. You could easily work that in, whilst he is stopped he glances down a side street and sees something suspicious for example. Anyway, definitely check out the book, it could be very helpful to you.

Check out this history,
"Blake sold many original scripts and pitches to the major studios, including two million-dollar sales (one to Steven Spielberg), and had two films produced.  Stop! Or My Mom Will Shoot, Third Grade and Nuclear Family sold to Universal; Poker Night, Drips, Blank Check and Herbie Comes Home sold to Disney; How I Joined The CIA and Big, Ugly Baby! sold to Fox Family TV; and Alienators to Total Film Group."
I reckon he has a bit more cred. than your friend who read the script.


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## ironpony (Jun 17, 2021)

Olly Buckle said:


> You should certainly check it out, he gives lots of detailed advice about when to make plot twists happen and that sort of thing. Of course it wouldn't apply to every movie, but it is ideal for the sort of thing you seem to be writing.
> In terms of 'save the cat' itself it would be something like giving way to let a mother and child cross the road. You could easily work that in, whilst he is stopped he glances down a side street and sees something suspicious for example. Anyway, definitely check out the book, it could be very helpful to you.
> 
> Check out this history,
> ...


Oh okay thanks, I can check out, thanks.  Are you saying that the main character can see something suspicious down the street for example?


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## Olly Buckle (Jun 18, 2021)

My idea is that you try to work the 'save the cat' moment into the plot , so for example because he has stopped to give way to the weak and vulnerable he notices something he wouldn't have if he had been moving.

Sorry side streets and mother and child are distracting, it doesn't matted where it is, or if the vulnerable person is in a wheel chair or has crutches, they don't even have to be crossing the road. Just the basic steps. He shows a human side and does something nice. The better it fits in with the plot, of course, the more natural it will seem.


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## ironpony (Jun 19, 2021)

Oh okay thanks.  Well my main character gets called to a crime in progress, saves a potential victim, and makes an arrest but maybe that's not save the cat enough, because a reader may expect something different?


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## notawizard (Jun 19, 2021)

My first thought was I don't see how someone could make this mistake as so many stories start this way, but I think what might be throwing them off is that you start with the criminals, and they are still on scene for the scene where the detective comes in.  It's very common in a crime story to have the crime committed, then the detective show up and try to solve it. Because 99.999% of our stories are told from the good guy's point of view, and detectives are sort of default good guys, the audience is able to piece together easily who the protagonist is.

I can see the way you've described it being a little confusing as to who the story is really supposed to be about. 

Is there a reason the bad guy has to be arrested? Maybe you could have the MC come in and save someone, but the bad guy gets away? If this bad guy isn't integral to the main plot, that could be a motivation to the character to solve the case he's on? Alternatively, you could open with the detective getting a call and then showing up and arresting the guys rather than starting with the crime in progress.  That being said, I think generally (and I could be wrong on this) if a crime is actually in progress, a detective wouldn't be the one called to the scene, right? Wouldn't they call a patrolman? Detectives usually work to solve the crime after it's been committed.


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## ironpony (Jun 19, 2021)

Oh well I was just going by movies I saw before, but I noticed in movies like Dirty Harry, Harry seems to be a detective, but he's out on patrol regularly in a car, in plain clothes in the movies.  So I thought I would just have him doing that if those movies, do it, unless that is not good?

Also, after this part of the plot, what comes after is the police wanting the victim in the crime to testify against her capture, and this causes her to be put in danger from the others who got a way.  The others will not think she is much of a threat, if she doesn't have an arrested defendant to testify against, would they?  That is why I need that arrested defendant I thought.

I thought of opening with the detective getting the call and then going to it rather than starting with the crime in progress, but there are certain details of the crime that the reader would not understand unless I show them first, before the crime is interrupted though.  I could show them in flashback later, but I thought it was just better to tell the events in chronological order, rather than flashback and recap later, unless doing that is better?


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## Olly Buckle (Jun 19, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thanks.  Well my main character gets called to a crime in progress, saves a potential victim, and makes an arrest but maybe that's not save the cat enough, because a reader may expect something different?


That is the plot rather than 'Save the cat'. StC would be more an incidental, a small act of kindness on the side, that shows the human side of the hero. A little bit of extra consideration for the victim for example, not out of place, but he didn't have to do it for the plot to work.

Go read the book, it really is quite good. My friend's daughter was doing a script writing course at uni. and dived on my copy when she saw it, having heard lots about it. Afraid I haven't seen it since and she has gone to work for a script writing company in San Francisco


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## ironpony (Jun 19, 2021)

Oh you mean the book by Blake Snyder?  I can read that.  I read The Anatomy of Story by John Truby, and that book says to do the opposite and start of with the main character doing something that shows they have a moral flaw.

I could start off with an act of kindness that is not related to the plot in anyway, but I thought I should start out with bang and more suspense and action, for intrigue, unless that's not the way to go?


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## notawizard (Jun 19, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh well I was just going by movies I saw before, but I noticed in movies like Dirty Harry, Harry seems to be a detective, but he's out on patrol regularly in a car, in plain clothes in the movies.  So I thought I would just have him doing that if those movies, do it, unless that is not good?
> 
> Also, after this part of the plot, what comes after is the police wanting the victim in the crime to testify against her capture, and this causes her to be put in danger from the others who got a way.  The others will not think she is much of a threat, if she doesn't have an arrested defendant to testify against, would they?  That is why I need that arrested defendant I thought.
> 
> I thought of opening with the detective getting the call and then going to it rather than starting with the crime in progress, but there are certain details of the crime that the reader would not understand unless I show them first, before the crime is interrupted though.  I could show them in flashback later, but I thought it was just better to tell the events in chronological order, rather than flashback and recap later, unless doing that is better?


It might increase tension to have those elements hidden, too.  Especially with crime stories, it can really increase tension to not understand all the elements of the crime. 

Here is a link to patrolman vs. detective that might help:





						What Are the Duties of a Patrol Officer Versus a Detective?
					


What Are the Duties of a Patrol Officer Versus a Detective?. Patrol officers and detectives serve different functions in the law enforcement community, but both play important roles in deterring crime and keeping people safe. Each police department establishes its own job descriptions and duty...





					work.chron.com
				




Honestly, I think you could get away with a detective who shows up at a crime scene for a story considering it happens in TV shows all the time, so viewers might just assume that's fine. I know that for me it would pull me out a little to happen at the opening of a story--unless it was a situation where the detective is working on a crime and maybe shows up on his own? For instance, if the detective was chasing a serial killer an had a police scanner and heard a call for something that seemed to match his guy, so he showed up on his own to see if it was him?  Or you could try to give him a reason. Maybe it's a really small town that only has a handful of police, and someone scheduled for patrol didn't show up to work so he's been asked to fill in even though it wasn't normal duties? 

Take everything I say with a grain of salt, too. I don't know the details of the story so it's possible that it would be fine if I had all the details.


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## ironpony (Jun 19, 2021)

Oh okay, thanks for the ideas.  Do detectives do detective work all the time though?  Aren't there ever any instances, where the superior may say, we don't have any cases for you right now, so we need you to do patrol for today, because we are short there, etc?  Or at least I thought this was common, but I was setting the story in a big city setting.

As for not understanding all the elements, I am keeping some hidden such as backstory and motivation as well as some other things in the crime that are not seen until later, but I feel if I keep the entire thing hidden and it's all shown from the main character's point of view, when he arrives, then I will have to show more of a flashback recap later, and I just often hate backtracking with flashbacks.  Flashbacks are just kind of a pet peeve of mine, that I often like to avoid if possible, unless it's normal for story telling, and totally worth having later, just for the sake of mystery?


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## notawizard (Jun 19, 2021)

I'm honestly not sure about how it would work in a city.  Maybe you can contact a police officer and ask for an interview to answer some of the questions? I've done that before (lol, asking about what happens when a body washes up on shore, no less. Good thing they trusted I was just a writer!) 

You can probably explain some of the other things without flashbacks. Or at least without full flashbacks? I'd be fine with a detective figuring out stuff without seeing it myself, personally.  Since it's a screenplay and therefore visual, you could also do something like have the detective figure something out, then show a quick few seconds of flashback that's related to that rather than having a full scene.


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## ironpony (Jun 20, 2021)

I can probably do that, thanks.  It's just that in the opening crime one of the antagonists, gets cold feet, and cannot go through it.  He ends up ruining it and the others chase after him which leads to a chase.  This is what causes the police to be called, and causes the main character to come across it.

The antagonist who turns good, goes through a character change and felt I needed to show that, in order to make things more clear.  I could show it in a flashback later, but didn't think it would have the same impact, compared to showing it from the beginning.  Unless I am being too fussy about it and should just go for the flashback later, if telling things from the main character's point of view at first is better.

But as for having the detective figure it out, I don't think the detective would be able to figure out what actually happened, and I was told before it would be impossible for him to figure it out.  Therefore, I thought maybe it's best I just write it so he doesn't figure it out at all, and just show the reader what happens from the villains point of view, so they reader then knows, and the detective doesn't have to figure anything out therefore.


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## notawizard (Jun 20, 2021)

Is this a character who is important for the whole story? If so, maybe you could do a split where you have the two scenes running at the same time? You could possibly play up the contrast, too. Showing the detective doing something like making coffee at the office and talking to someone calmly while the other scene is the bad guy running and calling the cops, etc.?  It could be visually really cool.  You'd still be able to establish the detective as the main guy (and the bad guy as another main character) while not having to do a flashback.


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## ironpony (Jun 20, 2021)

Oh okay, I just thought that something like making coffee could be boring before but maybe I'm wrong .  That's how I originally wrote was he was just stopping to get some take out food and gets the call.  But I thought that might be boring, and I should just cut to the main character pulling up in his cop car, with his sirens on as his first entrance, unless that's bad?

The character who causes the crime to go wrong is important for the whole story, yes.


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## notawizard (Jun 20, 2021)

As someone who has completely rewritten the shit out of things, my opinion is that you can always try and see if it works. If it doesn't, maybe you'll get an idea for something that does in the process. Always save what you have now because at the end of the day you might decide you like it better.


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## gwell66 (Jun 21, 2021)

ironpony said:


> For my screenplay, it's a crime thriller, and the first scene I open with is a crime comitted by the villains that kick starts off the remaining plot.  After the opening crime, I then introduce the main character, who is a detective that arrives at the scene to start to investigate the crime.
> 
> But I was told by readers that so far, that it's confusing as to who the main character is, because the main character is just a detective, doing regular detective stuff, and we don't know anything interesting about him at this point, so it comes off as he is interested as just any other character



My Go-to example is Eddy Valiant in Roger Rabbit..

We don't start with him walking up to a crime scene and looking at the chalk outline of the guy who got killed by a safe.

. We start with building who this man is, what his deep-seeded flaws and tragedies are and then we build on that by having characters interact with him.

The camera does this using his personal office as an exposition dump. Dusty old chair and a dusty work station on the opposite side of the desk from Eddy. Articles and photographs show the other desk is his brother's. They were detectives, goofballs and all around nice guys who earned accolades helping toons. There's other info like a pic of him, Deloris and his bro but you get the gist.

And what's the first we see of him in the flesh? Face-down, passed out on his desk. This character has lived a full life by the time we see them and is dealing with the trauma that life provides.

A detective wakes him (inventively I might add) and subtly drops some info about how he's fallen off from what he used to be and has struggled to recover from his brothers death.

Boom. Everything you need to know succinctly covered in just a few visuals and remarks (which you could write out the visuals if it were a novel). We establish audience investment in the character by teaching about him and the obstacles he has to overcome.) It helps that the rest of the movie revolves around him coming to terms with what happened and getting back to the person he used to be (Albeit a bit more jaded)

For your protag, give us critical info about his flaws or obstacles in a way that relates to the story. Get the audience familiar with this character and ROOTING for this character. Then we aren't disappointed to find he's the protag bc we are already rooting for him and want to see his story continue.


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## ironpony (Jun 23, 2021)

Oh okay.  I could start out with a scene where he is with his wife and discusses some personal stuff if that's better?  I have this scene later on, after the opening crime, but I could have it come before if that's better?  

But how come other movies start out with the opening crime though, and you still manage to care about the main character.  For example, in the opening to the first Dirty Harry movie, the first scene you see is the villain committing a murder, and then Harry comes in after.  Or how in The Matrix for example, the first scene you see is Trinity fighting the villains, and they do not introduce the protagonist until after this?

Or how in Star Wars, the first scene you see is a battle between space ships with one of them being captured, rather than opening with Luke, wanting to leave the planet, but his Uncle forbidding it?  Why didn't they make that the first scene, in order to establish who the main character is faster?  How do those movies get away with it?


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## notawizard (Jun 23, 2021)

I think those sorts of examples are closer to a prologue in novel. Prologues generally aren't directly connected in a linear way to the next scene.  It's something that the author knows will be hearkened back to.  For example, you often see a crime committed in a crime novel, and then you know that at some point in the next chapters it's going to tie back to that scene (often done to create mystery around who committed the crimes). Or you might have a flashback or a flash forward and you know that you'll get to find out how it connects as the story goes on.  While prologues are often hated, one that is done well can really help create tension because the reader always has this underlying awareness of something more that is going on under the surface and they're trying to put the pieces together as they read.

I haven't seen Dirty Harry so I can't really compare, but in the Matrix, it works in a similar fashion. You see Trinity in these futuristic, mind blowing (I will never forget what it was like to see that first opening scene) visuals being chased by bad guys and you don't really understand what's happening, and that juxtaposition with the next scene with Neo, who seems to be in the normal worlds doing relatively normal things creates that tension. You wonder how the two parts are going to connect.

A prologue doesn't really work as a prologue if the next scene sort of continues where that one left off and uses the same characters. It misses some of those cues that tell the reader (or in this case, viewer) that there is a separation between events.

Is this a project that's already finished or one that you're still working on?


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## gwell66 (Jun 23, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay.  I could start out with a scene where he is with his wife and discusses some personal stuff if that's better?  I have this scene later on, after the opening crime, but I could have it come before if that's better?
> 
> But how come other movies start out with the opening crime though, and you still manage to care about the main character.  For example, in the opening to the first Dirty Harry movie, the first scene you see is the villain committing a murder, and then Harry comes in after.  Or how in The Matrix for example, the first scene you see is Trinity fighting the villains, and they do not introduce the protagonist until after this?
> 
> Or how in Star Wars, the first scene you see is a battle between space ships with one of them being captured, rather than opening with Luke, wanting to leave the planet, but his Uncle forbidding it?  Why didn't they make that the first scene, in order to establish who the main character is faster?  How do those movies get away with it?


Roger rabbit actually starts with a cartoon of Roger rabbit saving a cartoon baby. It's just once Eddie is introduced, the introduction does all those things to get us invested in him. With Luke, we see his isolation and desire to be a part of something greater as something greater sort of lands at his feet. 

You can start with something besides the detective but when we finally do meet him something needs to be done to get us invested in him as a character. Hopefully something that will tie in with the themes of the story, his arc as a character, etc. From what you were describing, it might have been a bit too vanilla and uninteresting when we meet him which made it disappointing for the reader's when things shifted to him.

Something personal to the character is likely going to be a step in the right direction. Of course, it's all in the execution. GL!


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## ironpony (Jun 23, 2021)

Oh okay well my detectives first scene is him arriving when the crime is happening and immediately goes into action, the way I wrote it so far, but is that bad?


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## gwell66 (Jun 23, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay well my detectives first scene is him arriving when the crime is happening and immediately goes into action, the way I wrote it so far, but is that bad?


I'd be happy to take a look and tell you but if we know nothing about him then as far as the reader is concerned he's just an extra (like in a tv show).

We've got to like him and/or find him interesting in order to care about him being the one to examine the scene. How would you describe him as a person? What are his flaws and main motivations in life before he stumbles on this case?


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## SteveTheAviator (Aug 11, 2021)

Lots of movies start off with the bang event. Its fine.


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## ironpony (Sep 13, 2021)

That's true, lots do.  But if it's fine to start off with a bang, then why are readers tell me they want to get to know the protagonist first?  Why are they ignoring that other works of fiction start off with a band and it's okay?  Unless I am doing something different most likely when I do?


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## wild (Sep 14, 2021)

ironpony said:


> For my screenplay, it's a crime thriller, and the first scene I open with is a crime comitted by the villains that kick starts off the remaining plot.  After the opening crime, I then introduce the main character, who is a detective that arrives at the scene to start to investigate the crime.
> 
> But I was told by readers that so far, that it's confusing as to who the main character is, because the main character is just a detective, doing regular detective stuff, and we don't know anything interesting about him at this point, so it comes off as he is interested as just any other character, rather than a protagonist, and so reader feels confused and possibly cheated later on when they find out he is the protagonist.
> 
> ...


Someone probably already said this but the way I would try (not saying this’ll work) is start off with the bang, then show the detective’s family life/morning routine or whatever, and after that have him go to work and take the case and whatever comes next.


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## ironpony (Sep 15, 2021)

Oh okay thanks.  Well I could make the main character part of the opening with a bang as well, depending on how I do it.  Here are three ideas I have to open it so far, if one is better than the other?

The villains want to recruit a new member into their gang and set up an initiation test for the new member to complete in order for him to get in.  The new member has to commit a crime against a victim, but gets cold feet morally and cannot go through with it.  This causes a fight, and the whole initiation goes wrong.  I'm not sure how it goes wrong yet since I am still developing the plot.  After it goes wrong, the police are investigating the crime scene, and they find the victim and one of the gang members, and this new plot point takes the story in the direction I want it to go next.  But there are three ways I can think of to get the main character onto it the crime investigation.

1.  When the gang goes to meet the new recruit for the initiation, the protagonist, a police officer, is in the distance and he sees the gang search the new recruit for a wire and weapons.  He then decides to discreetly follow them to see what they are up to, and then witnesses the iniation and can stop it.  However, I don't want him to recognize the new recruit, because he knows who he is, but I don't want the protagonist to know he was there.  So he cannot recognize him if he sees him being searched.

2.  The gang tries to get the new recruit to do the initiation but the new recruit gets morally cold feet and cannot do it.  This leads to a fight and chase with the gang.  The protagonist, while on patrol, sees the chase and intervenes, but still cannot recognize the new recruit of course.

3.  The gang fights and chases the new recruit and the chase causes one of the gang members to become immobilized, and the would be target of the initiation becomes immobilized as well. The police are called and respond and the protagonist responds and finds the two of them left behind.

Does one of these openings sound better than the others to use?


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## Lawless (Sep 15, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Does one of these openings sound better than the others to use?


If I had to choose one, I'd choose #1, especially if you want the new recruit to be good at hiding and disappearing. The police officer can find himself wondering how the hell he got away and it will intrigue the reader. In general, though, I think all three are fine. The choice depends a lot on what you want to happen later.


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## ironpony (Sep 15, 2021)

Lawless said:


> If I had to choose one, I'd choose #1, especially if you want the new recruit to be good at hiding and disappearing. The police officer can find himself wondering how the hell he got away and it will intrigue the reader. In general, though, I think all three are fine. The choice depends a lot on what you want to happen later.


Okay thank you.  I forgot to mention, I don't want the protagonist to know that the new recruit is there, because he knows who he is.  If he saw the new recruit being searched, would he still recognize him from the distance especially if it turned into a chase  soon after
 that he gets involved in?


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## PiP (Sep 15, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Okay thank you.  I forgot to mention, I don't want the protagonist to know that the new recruit is there, because he knows who he is.  If he saw the new recruit being searched, would he still recognize him from the distance especially if it turned into a chase  soon after
> that he gets involved in?


The new recruit could always dye and restyle their hair or wear a wig. Even add a pair of glasses for good measure


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## ironpony (Sep 15, 2021)

That's true.  My worry about the first plot idea though... Does it come off as a coincidence the the protagonist is there the exact same time to randomly spot the crime before it goes down?

Is the second plot idea stronger because the crime gets out of hand and then he is dispatched to it as a result, as opposed to a coincidence being the result?


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## Lawless (Sep 17, 2021)

ironpony said:


> about the first plot idea [---] Does it come off as a coincidence [---] the protagonist is there the exact same time to randomly spot the crime before it goes down?
> 
> Is the second plot idea stronger because the crime gets out of hand and then he is dispatched to it as a result, as opposed to a coincidence being the result?



Dispatched to – yes, that's more plausible. However, if he's traveling by his usual daily route, then it's not implausible that he would see something happen. After all, crimes are attempted here and there every now and then. That's why the police are patrolling the streets in the first place.

Ultimately it all depends on how big a mess you want to be made in the beginning: a) they are tying to do something but are prevented, b) they get into conflict/fight/chase. 




ironpony said:


> don't want the protagonist to know that the new recruit is there, because he knows who he is. If he saw the new recruit being searched, would he still recognize him from the distance especially if it turned into a chase soon after that he gets involved in?



It depends on how well he knows the guy and what time of day it is.

Maybe he is used to seeing him in good light and decent clothes, but in this scene it's evening and the new recruit is wearing different clothes. Maybe he has his back turned, the cop approaches, shouts something, the gang runs away. Maybe another gang member has a weapon, so the cop focuses on him and doesn't pay much attention to the new recruit and therefore fails to recognize him.

Scenario #2 is easier to write in this respect, but #1 is not impossible either.


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## ironpony (Sep 17, 2021)

Oh okay.  Thank you for your input!  Well another thing about scenario 2 is, in order for the story to go where I want to I want the main character cop to arrest one of the gang members and recover the would be victim of the gang initation test.

So therefore, if he responds to a chase where they are chasing the new recruit, would he even be able to locate the would be victim since the would be victim would not be there in the chase?  Maybe he could arrest one of them, and the rest run back to tell the others that the cops are coming and they need to flee, and then the cop after cuffing one of them could follow them there, and then discover the would be victim as the rest of them runaway?

Or is it possible for the cop to find the would be victim in the second scenario?


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## Lawless (Sep 17, 2021)

ironpony said:


> I want the main character cop to arrest one of the gang members and recover the would be victim of the gang initation test.
> 
> So therefore, if he responds to a chase where they are chasing the new recruit, would he even be able to locate the would be victim



Maybe the (would-be-)victim goes to the nearest police station on his own accord?


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## ironpony (Sep 17, 2021)

Oh okay but the would be victim would not do this because she has things to hide, and so there is no reason for her to go to the police because of other motivations to stay away from them though.  I need the police to discover her, without her giving them any freebies if that makes sense.  But I am not sure how they would discover her, since by the time they respond to a chase, she would logically be in a different location and long gone?


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## Lawless (Sep 17, 2021)

ironpony said:


> the would be victim would not do this because she has things to hide



Okay. Can she accidentally drop an item somewhere that is found by someone, ends up in the hands of the police and leads them to her?


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## ironpony (Sep 17, 2021)

Well if that were to happen and they found her later, the police would not know it was an initiation test though, would they?  I need them to figure out that it was an initiation test but is it possible for them to figure that out if they respond afterward?


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## Kimmikoto (Sep 17, 2021)

ironpony said:


> For my screenplay, it's a crime thriller, and the first scene I open with is a crime comitted by the villains that kick starts off the remaining plot.  After the opening crime, I then introduce the main character, who is a detective that arrives at the scene to start to investigate the crime.
> 
> But I was told by readers that so far, that it's confusing as to who the main character is, because the main character is just a detective, doing regular detective stuff, and we don't know anything interesting about him at this point, so it comes off as he is interested as just any other character, rather than a protagonist, and so reader feels confused and possibly cheated later on when they find out he is the protagonist.
> 
> ...


There is nothing wrong with showing off the protagonist with his personal life, gives us better insight into the development of the character. I would introduce the villains right away if you can so we know what is the point of the story. What does the protagonist do with his life? You may want to explain the villain in detail and the crime, so people have a mutual understanding of the is the plot of the story and what direction are you trying to take with your readers.


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## ironpony (Sep 17, 2021)

Oh okay, but you are saying to start off with the protagonist and his personal life before introducing the villains then?


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## Backstroke_Italics (Sep 21, 2021)

Listen. Please listen to me. I am holding in my hand a five dollar bill. It is yours* if you promise to never start a book on an action beat from the end of the first act, then quickly cut to "three weeks earlier."

*five dollar bill may be a metaphor, a hoax, or a satire _about_ five dollar bills.


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