# Getting Permission to use Brand Names



## Taylor (Jun 28, 2022)

Has anyone had any experience or know of anyone else's experience with asking permission to use a brand name in their novel?  If yes:


How did you/they find the contact?
How did you/they contact them?
What did you/they say when asking for permission?
What, if anything did you/they send?
Was it successful?
Why or why not?


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## TerraLiga (Jun 28, 2022)

I'm not sure you need to seek permission when used in fiction. Or am I wrong?


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## Taylor (Jun 28, 2022)

TerraLiga said:


> I'm not sure you need to seek permission when used in fiction. Or am I wrong?


There is a general acceptance if you just mention a name and don't sully it, for example, "He put on his Rolex watch." That is pretty safe.

But in my story, because it is about power, money, and greed within the stock market, I mention brands as status symbols and even discuss things like why someone would buy an expensive branded watch over a less expensive brand.  The branded products are actually a part of the plot.  I'd prefer to have permission now, and not have to deal with the cost of defending myself later.


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## TerraLiga (Jun 28, 2022)

Do you have any examples of legal precedence? I heard of personal libel cases, but not corporate.


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## Taylor (Jun 28, 2022)

TerraLiga said:


> Do you have any examples of legal precedence? I heard of personal libel cases, but not corporate.



I don't know of any literary examples where the plaintiff is a corporation.  There are well-known examples with respect to images, and movie characters like The Hotel California case and The Pink Panther case. 

But I'm not really interested in being the "precedent" in the world of literary fiction. LOL!   As mentioned, I'm exploring getting permission.  Many authors do this successfully.  I'd imagine the big five publishers do this on a regular basis.


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## TerraLiga (Jun 28, 2022)

Fair enough - nobody wants to be a test case!

I was involved in manufacturing for a while (and will be again when I get my A into G) and wanted to make a miniature version of a branded product. I contacted the brand and they put me in touch with their brand agency. Very few large brands deal directly with licensees themselves, they just collect the royalties.

I imagine you'd have to submit any part that mentions the brand to their guardian agency and hope for the best.


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## CyberWar (Jun 29, 2022)

Let's be honest, you'd have to be someone pretty high-profile for any corporation to take note of your work. A hobby writer or small-time professional writer like the majority here isn't likely to make a blip on the radar of a business that owns an internationally-recognized brand.

Either way, I wouldn't be particularly worried about it. Then again, I come from part of the world where copyrights are casually flouted by just about everybody, so take my advice with a pinch of salt.


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## Taylor (Jun 29, 2022)

@CyberWar that may be true!  I will admit I don't know much about how they might scour around to find any hobby writers, but it would likely be a third-party agent like @TerraLiga suggests.  If they manage licensing rights they could be quite vigilent, because that's their business.   

At any rate, I'm exploring the option of getting permission.  And it may be that they don't want to bother with a hobby writer like me and simply say, no.


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## Lbjordan22 (Jul 7, 2022)

TerraLiga said:


> I'm not sure you need to seek permission when used in fiction. Or am I wrong?


I would like to know the answer to that question also.


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## WTFarm Girl (Jul 7, 2022)

This is where it gets quite curious. Those brands should be PAYING YOU to mention them (so long as it's positive of course). In the world of social  media influencers, they are PAID to mention, show or talk about a product. Why can't writers? I mean, obviously it would depend on book sales (just like social media followers), but why should a company want to SUE someone for helping to spread their name?

I think though, if you are worried, try to find a local lawyer who deals with copywrite laws. While it might be more expensive, if you are truly concerned they should be able to ease your fears


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## Matchu (Jul 7, 2022)

It is a spurious issue, it is not a writers’ issue.


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## Taylor (Jul 7, 2022)

WTFarm Girl said:


> This is where it gets quite curious. Those brands should be PAYING YOU to mention them (so long as it's positive of course). In the world of social  media influencers, they are PAID to mention, show or talk about a product. Why can't writers? I mean, obviously it would depend on book sales (just like social media followers), but why should a company want to SUE someone for helping to spread their name?
> 
> I think though, if you are worried, try to find a local lawyer who deals with copywrite laws. While it might be more expensive, if you are truly concerned they should be able to ease your fears


Yes, I have been in touch with a copywriter lawyer and an entertainment lawyer.  Both were very helpful in the first free consultation.  If I wish I can go forward with what they call a pre-publication review, where they will flag risks and give their opinion on potential liability.  The issue is that we live in a litigious world, and anyone can sue, even if they are not on solid ground.  One of the greatest risks is that of having to defend one's self. 

Ideally, it would be nice to get permission to advertise their name, but I think the likes of Loius Vuitton and Rolex prefer to use influencers who have some influence. like Kim Kardashian and Roger Federer.


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## TerraLiga (Jul 7, 2022)

Unless you are being very deliberate with untruths which could permeate into false facts, I have doubts that corporations would have any interest in a lawsuit that could severely damage their brand.

When Stephen King wrote Christine it didn't cross Chrysler's mind to pick up the phone to their lawyers - despite the focus of that story being an evil possessed Plymouth Fury. As long as the brand is not being used in a defamatory way a brand owner would have no interest or argument in interfering with creative works.


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## Taylor (Jul 7, 2022)

TerraLiga said:


> Unless you are being very deliberate with untruths which could permeate into false facts, I have doubts that corporations would have any interest in a lawsuit that could severely damage their brand.


Why would the lawsuit severely damage their brand?


TerraLiga said:


> When Stephen King wrote Christine it didn't cross Chrysler's mind to pick up the phone to their lawyers - despite the focus of that story being an evil possessed Plymouth Fury. As long as the brand is not being used in a defamatory way a brand owner would have no interest or argument in interfering with creative works.


Great example! Do you know for a fact that he didn't get permission to use the brand?


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## WTFarm Girl (Jul 7, 2022)

TerraLiga said:


> Unless you are being very deliberate with untruths which could permeate into false facts, I have doubts that corporations would have any interest in a lawsuit that could severely damage their brand.
> 
> When Stephen King wrote Christine it didn't cross Chrysler's mind to pick up the phone to their lawyers - despite the focus of that story being an evil possessed Plymouth Fury. As long as the brand is not being used in a defamatory way a brand owner would have no interest or argument in interfering with creative works.


That's a great and possibly most extreme example!


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## Matchu (Jul 7, 2022)

Or put another way, care workers apply for junk mail for vulnerable people so they have some attention in the mornings.


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## Taylor (Jul 7, 2022)

Matchu said:


> It is a spurious issue, it is not a writers’ issue.





Matchu said:


> Or put another way, care workers apply for junk mail for vulnerable people so they have some attention in the mornings.


Forgive me for being obtuse.  What is it you are trying to say?


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## Matchu (Jul 7, 2022)

Taylor said:


> Forgive me for being obtuse.  What is it you are trying to say?



How it is not necessary, or it is not an aspect of ‘writing’ to compose associated letters directed toward multi-national corporations before self-publishing one’s novels on Amazon - establishing the company’s attention, authorisation in some respects - re your character’s disparaging remarks about Rolex watches, about Lambourginis, some brand of cheese, ice cream perhaps? The composition of said letters, the activity, like the everlasting novel phenomena is charming, delightful pastime but not relevant to writing, and not rooted in the real world of writing, remains, meanwhile,  one of many enduring features of writer forum environments, in a good way.  I might be wrong.


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## Taylor (Jul 7, 2022)

Matchu said:


> How it is not necessary, or it is not an aspect of ‘writing’ to compose associated letters directed toward multi-national corporations before self-publishing one’s novels on Amazon - establishing the company’s attention, authorisation in some respects - re your character’s disparaging remarks about Rolex watches, about Lambourginis, some brand of cheese, ice cream perhaps?


You do make a good point!  I had thought that waving a red flag in front of their nose, might not be the best strategy.  


Matchu said:


> The composition of said letters, the activity, like the everlasting novel phenomena is charming, delightful pastime but not relevant to writing, and not rooted in the real world of writing, remains, meanwhile,  one of many enduring features of writer forum environments, in a good way.  I might be wrong.


Whilst it may not be relevant to "writing", it is relevant to the "real world" and "Publishing Discussion, " which the last time I checked is the title of this forum.   

BTW:  What is the "everlasting novel phenomena"?


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## Matchu (Jul 7, 2022)

I’m sorry for being such a strident ass tonight.  Once I got tapping I just could not stop myself normal service resumes tomorrow


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## Pamelyn Casto (Jul 7, 2022)

*I don't know the answer to this question but I am pretty sure I've read that it's necessary to get permission to use a brand name (at least in the U.S.) If the book isn't a success it probably doesn't matter much. But if the book is successful in sales, then it's likely another story altogether. Some corporations even pay well-known writers to use their product names in their stories. (I'd bet King got permission to use Chrysler in his famous story. ) I'm working from memory here so could be wrong but I am pretty sure we need permission before a product name can be used.  *


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## Megan Pearson (Jul 8, 2022)

Taylor said:


> ...Great example! Do you know for a fact that he didn't get permission to use the brand?



Not too long ago, I read this great little article on Stephen King writing as Richard Bachman. In it, the writer of the article mused that perhaps one of the reasons why King became such a popular hit was that his stories were populated with everyday items. I.e., things everyday people held, touched, tasted, and so on. And King apparently didn't use just one or two brand names, he brand-name-dropped at just about every chance he got.

Now, here we are in 2022 and I don't read King (too scary!), so I couldn't say either way if he still does this. But my attention in the article focused on just this very issue. What are the guidelines in today's -- as you so very well put it --litigious world? Spoiler alert: I don’t know. But let’s see if we can develop this thought and tease out some other considerations.

Let's say that a writer has an MC who is the pilot of a Boeing 747, wears Dockers shoes on his days off, and his signature drink is the Starbucks Vanilla Latte. What might be our pros and cons?

Possible Cons

_For the ownership company:_ trademark infringement, negative publicity risk, risk of loss of intangible value to the trademark itself (and thus to the company’s financial position—e.g., what happened when the Chevy Nova was marketed in a country where Nova meant “doesn’t go”), risk of encouraging the common use of the trademark (think of the verb, to xerox).

_For the author:_ as your OP asks, we need to clarify the risk of infringing on another entity’s rights, the risk of litigation or restitution, and the risk of legal expense in mitigation of these risks.

Possible Pros

_For the ownership company:_ free advertising. (Provided it is celebratory.)

_For the author:_ we live in a world populated by specific things with specific names. How the MC dresses on his days off and what he drinks and what he does for a living are commonplace things and describe not only who he is as a person, but also what commodities his personal wealth gives him access to. (Think of the symbolism behind James Bond’s car.) This display of wealth in turn creates, for the character on the page, access or limits to their contact with other characters of similar or greater position. It constructs a setting/context the reader can relate to. These are just things we as individuals understand implicitly.

* * *

From this brief exercise, it would seem that the author has everything to gain and—assuming the author’s influence _could_ have a material effect— the company, everything to lose. Further, it would also seem that if the author were to benefit from the use of the brand name, even by a penny, then the commodity owner would suffer to the same degree.

But this reasoning doesn’t hold up. Take a look at the numerous documentaries against Monsanto. If the documentarian had to pay the corporation for rights to use the brand name in producing its documentaries, then no documentaries would ever be created. This must point to some kind of fair use law that protects the creative rights of others in being able to freely talk about the product or corporation. (Might be useful to look up.)

It would seem that _what is in question is the purpose for which a brand name is used_. How much financial gain would the novel/TV show/film generate and, of that, what might be the brand names’ material contribution to that gain? Is James Bond’s purpose to sell cars? No—we identify the car with the character more so than we identify the character with the car. (I.e., not only is there the Bond car, there are the Bond girls, the Bond movies….ad infinitum.) And with the Bond car, its purpose goes beyond it just being a car—it’s _Bond’s_ car. It’s more than a car—it’s a primeval symbol, a metaphor, a vehicle for the reader or viewer to tap into Bond’s charisma and machismo in a way that couldn’t be obtained by pages of tedious description.

I am inclined to conclude that some sort of fair use law governs the public use of corporate and commodity names and references and that the limited purpose to which they’re used in creative works somehow supersedes the original intent of the trademark owner.

* * *

For further reading, I’m fairly certain I’ve read about this discussion previously on WF. You might want to look at Dec-Jan posts here from 2019-2020.


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## Megan Pearson (Jul 8, 2022)

Taylor said:


> Has anyone had any experience or know of anyone else's experience with asking permission to use a brand name in their novel?  If yes:


Not 'yes' yet, but I have a scene where I want a special guest appearance of a local celebrity for my story. I thought that once I actually have the story down on paper I might contact this person and see if this person would be willing to participate & at what cost. By that time, if this person wanted to review my story and use of them then I'd have something to give to this person. And if this person turns it down, that's ok too. I am beginning to realize there is a growing list of other possible, more notable names that share the same fan base.

But before I reach out to anyone, I'll do what you're doing and research it first. The story works just as well without the Easter Egg, should the legal concerns become too cumbersome.


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## VRanger (Jul 8, 2022)

I think we had this discussion a few weeks ago.

It's *not *necessary to get permission. You want to avoid three things:
1. Make sure the product you describe with a brand is that product, and not something else ... particularly if the brand is trademarked.
2. Don't use it generically. Use the capitalized brand name. For example, "Would you please copy this on the Xerox machine"--not--would you xerox this".
3. Don't disparage the brand. Show it in the course of normal use without insulting it or using it, say, in a criminal enterprise. However, if you have a character declare, for example, they don't like Coca Cola ... you're not going to be sued. That's opinion, not defamation.


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## TerraLiga (Jul 8, 2022)

Taylor said:


> Why would the lawsuit severely damage their brand?
> 
> Great example! Do you know for a fact that he didn't get permission to use the brand?


Yes, I do. I read him talking about the car he chose a few years ago. He had a list of unpopular, low sales cars and chose the Fury, partly for its name. It was only when it was made into a film that permission was sought and granted from Chrysler.


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## Matchu (Jul 8, 2022)

Everlasting novel - ‘the once I have done this, then I can do that, then I will be ready after I compose my notes.  I’ll probably have to research for a year?  Then I will be ready to employ somebody to read my first draft, but I need the right software package? Once that’s installed I shall study my sentences for a ball park start date of 2025, completion in 2028 and search for a publisher.  Perhaps I should resolve my publisher before my launch?  I should ask on the forum’… and there is NOTHING wrong with that kind of prevarication, it’s normal, likeable, human.


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## Taylor (Jul 8, 2022)

Pamelyn Casto said:


> *I don't know the answer to this question but I am pretty sure I've read that it's necessary to get permission to use a brand name (at least in the U.S.) If the book isn't a success it probably doesn't matter much. But if the book is successful in sales, then it's likely another story altogether. Some corporations even pay well-known writers to use their product names in their stories. (I'd bet King got permission to use Chrysler in his famous story. ) I'm working from memory here so could be wrong but I am pretty sure we need permission before a product name can be used.  *


@Pamelyn Casto, I know you work a lot in non-fiction.   I believe the conventions may be different.  I used to write financial articles for a trade magazine.  The editor would conduct due diligence with real names or corporations, getting permission and doing a fact check.   And the textbooks I use for teaching business students often have case studies of real companies, and these would require permission.  But, for fiction, it's somewhat different.  @TerraLiga confirmed below that King did not get permission for the novel, but permission was later granted for the movie.   There are some general uses that are acceptable, but not all.  I'm pretty sure there was a post a few months back where someone had gained permission.  That's what I was really looking for, how to do it.


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## Taylor (Jul 8, 2022)

Megan Pearson said:


> Not too long ago, I read this great little article on Stephen King writing as Richard Bachman. In it, the writer of the article mused that perhaps one of the reasons why King became such a popular hit was that his stories were populated with everyday items. I.e., things everyday people held, touched, tasted, and so on. And King apparently didn't use just one or two brand names, he brand-name-dropped at just about every chance he got.
> 
> Now, here we are in 2022 and I don't read King (too scary!), so I couldn't say either way if he still does this. But my attention in the article focused on just this very issue. What are the guidelines in today's -- as you so very well put it --litigious world? Spoiler alert: I don’t know. But let’s see if we can develop this thought and tease out some other considerations.
> 
> ...


This is a really good point. I will do some research on that.  There may be some principles that cross over from documentary/journalism to fiction/novels.


Megan Pearson said:


> It would seem that _what is in question is the purpose for which a brand name is used_. How much financial gain would the novel/TV show/film generate and, of that, what might be the brand names’ material contribution to that gain? Is James Bond’s purpose to sell cars? No—we identify the car with the character more so than we identify the character with the car. (I.e., not only is there the Bond car, there are the Bond girls, the Bond movies….ad infinitum.) And with the Bond car, its purpose goes beyond it just being a car—it’s _Bond’s_ car. It’s more than a car—it’s a primeval symbol, a metaphor, a vehicle for the reader or viewer to tap into Bond’s charisma and machismo in a way that couldn’t be obtained by pages of tedious description.
> 
> I am inclined to conclude that some sort of fair use law governs the public use of corporate and commodity names and references and that the limited purpose to which they’re used in creative works somehow supersedes the original intent of the trademark owner.


Great analysis @Megan Pearson!  You have touched on exactly what I am concerned with.  There is no question that product placement is marketing tool.  I would be highly surprised if the luxury car brands don't have a licensing agreement with the Bond franchise.    The question is are those same brands on the lookout for those who don't enter into an arrangement.  I heard the _Slumdog Millionaire_ producers removed all the Mercedes symbols on the hoods of cars before release.

But your observation of tapping into the reader by using the cache of a recognizable brand suggests another tool in the writers' toolbox.  I think that is where I have found myself in too deep. Well, it's one of my problems.  So I'm trying to find my way through this.  But thank you for this very useful post.  You have given me some things to think about.


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## TerraLiga (Jul 8, 2022)

An interesting fact for anyone who hasn't read Fleming's books; James Bond has never owned an Aston Martin. They are not his cars. They are given to him (fitted with all those 'extras') by the Government's Secret Service. Bond drives Bentleys. I'm not a big fan of the films, so I don't know if a Bentley has ever featured in any of the films. If anyone knows, please let me know.

Fleming was a big Bentley fan himself, which is why his character drove one.

Many things change when books get made into films.


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## Taylor (Jul 8, 2022)

VRanger said:


> I think we had this discussion a few weeks ago.
> 
> It's *not *necessary to get permission. You want to avoid three things:
> 1. Make sure the product you describe with a brand is that product, and not something else ... particularly if the brand is trademarked.
> ...


I'm not sure which discussion you are referring to but this one has digressed.  The OP question was not, *is it necessary?*  It was:

*Has anyone had any experience or know of anyone else's experience with asking permission to use a brand name in their novel?*

We've already had some great examples from @TerraLiga that have been useful for me.

That being said, your list above is very useful and perhaps can be placed in the resource section.  It applies to the vast majority of fiction novels.

To give you all some more background on my conundrum, originally I had planned on writing a non-fiction book on the value proposition.  I used to teach Business Strategy to CPAs.  I developed a technique to help students understand the principles behind strategies such as, "Just in Time", "Economies of Scale", "Value Creation", etc.  While lecturing, I could have been a talking head for hours or I could simply say, "Let's look at Mcdonald's or Walmart."  Their eyes would light up and they would instantly respond and start to participate in class. Because it was something familiar to them, and they all had an experience with these companies.

Behind all of these business principles are financial decisions, yes, but there is also the psychology of corporate behavior. That is the part I'm most inspired by as a writer.  When I decided to write fiction, everyone said, "write what you know", and "write the book you want to read and can't find."  So I did that.  But I instinctively incorporated my knowledge of industry into the plot.   So it's not just mentioning a brand name.  In some cases, I have changed the names and corporations, but to completely strip the rest out, may ruin the story.   So... I am left with some options:

Publish as is and take the risk (I have heard you can get liability insurance so that is something to explore)
Get permission to use brand names
Remove more brand names, and change up some company transactions to make them less recognizable
Re-write the story
Ditch the story and consider it a learning experience

But for those of you using brand names in the regular course of the story, just follow @VRanger's guidance above and carry on.


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## Pamelyn Casto (Jul 8, 2022)

Thanks for your valuable thoughts on this, @Taylor. I do worry a good bit about copyright infringement and trademark problems writers can sometimes encounter. I've had one of my essays stolen so know firsthand how a writer feels to work hard, do so much pretty original research, and then someone else come along and claim the whole thing for themselves. And then they get it published with their own byline. (I had my previous editors vouch for me and how they've published that piece some time before so we were able to get my byline restored. And we all watch this particular writer's doings now.)

Here's a link that touches on the complexity of the problems. Just this morning I read where ". . . Hollywood has flipped this rule around by selling product placements to trademark owners as a means of advertisement, which has been a lucrative move.) 

https://www.upcounsel.com/permissio...er use a,asking and how the logo will be used.

I write a lot of essays, poetry, short stories, flash fiction, prose poetry. I'm also at work proofing my nonfiction book (it will be published soon) and it's filled with citations I have to be careful with. I also have two historical novels sitting in my "to finish" files. My goal is to relearn all I ever thought I knew about copyright problems (particularly since an editor told me I could even plagiarize myself by borrowing lines from my previously published work.) (If King got permission for all those songs used in the film, that alone was a lot of work! For someone! 

I'm trying to learn what I can about copyrights, plagiarism, trademark violations, even if whatever I now think about it is actually wrong right now. Better safe than sued. Or so I'd guess. For sure there are no simple answers that we can fully rely on. It's a complex problem. I thank you, too, @Megan Pearson, for the fine things you gave us to think about.


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## Taylor (Jul 8, 2022)

Matchu said:


> Everlasting novel - ‘the once I have done this, then I can do that, then I will be ready after I compose my notes.  I’ll probably have to research for a year?  Then I will be ready to employ somebody to read my first draft, but I need the right software package? Once that’s installed I shall study my sentences for a ball park start date of 2025, completion in 2028 and search for a publisher.  Perhaps I should resolve my publisher before my launch?  I should ask on the forum’… and there is NOTHING wrong with that kind of prevarication, it’s normal, likeable, human.


Since this has nothing to do with the OP, I can only assume you are directing this characterization at me.  And I find this indulgence for your own amusement incredibly insulting.   I suppose you will suggest I'm being too sensitive and that it's meant to be humorous.  My philosophy is never to tell a joke at someone else's expense.   And that would be good practice here on WF in general.

You don't know me or anything about me.  And if you did, you would never suggest that I "prevaricate."  I'm actually hoping that you have used this word in error, being that some of its synonyms are "lie" and "equivocate."   Yes . . . even looked it up to see if_ I_ misunderstood the word.

But I will respond, not just for me but for others who may read your post and find it discouraging.

I started writing my novel in January 2020 a few months after retiring from a successful career as a CPA.  I knew nothing about fiction writing.  The draft was complete by August 2021.  I have spent the last 10 months working with beta readers, editors, designers, and publishers polishing it up.  It's at the point where I'm ready to publish.  Oh and I'm not a full-time author.  I also run a lucrative consulting business, am building a house, and play golf or tennis at least thrice a week.  So that's about 2 1/2 years part-time for a first novel. Is that what you would call an "everlasting novel"?


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## Matchu (Jul 8, 2022)

It’s got nothing to do with you.  It came off the top of my head.  It’s just fluff, ease up..


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## Taylor (Jul 8, 2022)

Matchu said:


> It’s got nothing to do with you.  It came off the top of my head.  It’s just fluff, ease up..


Now who's prevaricating . . LOL!!!


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## TerraLiga (Jul 8, 2022)

Taylor said:


> Publish as is and take the risk (I have heard you can get liability insurance so that is something to explore)
> Get permission to use brand names
> Remove more brand names, and change up some company transactions to make them less recognizable
> Re-write the story
> Ditch the story and consider it a learning experience


Personally, either 1 or 2 - or 3, but only if it doesn't dilute the story.


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## Matchu (Jul 8, 2022)

Yeah, you’re right about ‘prevaricating.’  I had it down as indeciveness, neither one way or another.  The dictionary is much stronger.

I was only referring to ‘stereotypes’ of the scene.  It probably came across dreadfully so I’m ever so sorry about that - you should never have to justify yourself to some random ass like me, you seem to be doing brilliantly, wish I was playing tennis.


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## Megan Pearson (Jul 8, 2022)

Taylor said:


> But your observation of tapping into the reader by using the cache of a recognizable brand suggests another tool in the writers' toolbox.  I think that is where I have found myself in too deep. Well, it's one of my problems.  ...


You're in good company.
Mine, too.


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## Megan Pearson (Jul 8, 2022)

Pamelyn Casto said:


> Thanks for your valuable thoughts on this, @Taylor. I do worry a good bit about copyright infringement and trademark problems writers can sometimes encounter. I've had one of my essays stolen so know firsthand how a writer feels to work hard, do so much pretty original research, and then someone else come along and claim the whole thing for themselves. And then they get it published with their own byline. (I had my previous editors vouch for me and how they've published that piece some time before so we were able to get my byline restored. And we all watch this particular writer's doings now.)
> 
> Here's a link that touches on the complexity of the problems. Just this morning I read where ". . . Hollywood has flipped this rule around by selling product placements to trademark owners as a means of advertisement, which has been a lucrative move.)
> 
> ...


Absolutely. In my academic writing, I have to cite myself when I draw from my previous work.



Pamelyn Casto said:


> (If King got permission for all those songs used in the film, that alone was a lot of work! For someone!
> 
> I'm trying to learn what I can about copyrights, plagiarism, trademark violations, even if whatever I now think about it is actually wrong right now. Better safe than sued. Or so I'd guess. For sure there are no simple answers that we can fully rely on. It's a complex problem. I thank you, too, @Megan Pearson, for the fine things you gave us to think about.


The nice thing about film is you have an entire production crew and legal department working on this. So it's highly unlikely King himself sought permission. But like you have shared above, in writing the novel, it is up to us to do our due diligence.

That brings me to a thought. And as @VRanger was concerned about a repeat discussion happening here, so maybe this will address that as well. We don't have a forum here for discussing legal matters. Presumably, that's because we don't want to give the appearance of giving legal advice. (Which is most likely why SFWA no longer has their legal FAQ page accessible to the public anymore--I checked.)

But consider, today's writer needs to be more self-educated about legal concerns now than ever before. Would it be reasonable to consider setting up a forum _not_ for advice but for research and the discussion of personal experience, progress, and questions encountered?


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## JBF (Jul 9, 2022)

I've never worried much about brand names.  I'm also unpublished and weird. 

Most of the ones I use are there for a reason, but they aren't front and center and generally don't need to be.


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## S J Ward (Jul 9, 2022)

I've been reading this thread with growing interest. 
Whilst writing my one and only novel to date, I debated placing real products into the book, choosing to use the actual, rather than a made up in the end. I felt it important that a particular whisky be described correctly, rather than a made up product with a made up flavour. I have not put down any product described, just used them in an everyday way.
However, when it came to real properties described in the book but with fictional staff (hotels, pubs and shops), I actually contacted the owners seeking permission to use their premises in a fictional way. I had replies from everyone contacted and all to the affirmative, so i thanked them individually within the book. 
i would hope that if the people who own Bunnahabhain read my book, they would enjoy the free advertising. Being my favourite tipple, they might even lose a bottle or two in my direction! 
I'm still unaware of the rules regarding breech of tm or cr, especially in the UK. I would think that it is a problem more apparent in the US. But these days it seems that people can even trademark a colour, a font, a real name... the list goes on. I'd love to know what would happen if a fictional character sent a Macdonalds burger back because it was cold. Or maybe a guy called MacDonald opens a burger store in a small Scottish village with the fixed idea to poison his neighbours and... Oh! hang on. I'm giving the plot away.


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## Taylor (Jul 9, 2022)

S J Ward said:


> However, when it came to real properties described in the book but with fictional staff (hotels, pubs and shops), I actually contacted the owners seeking permission to use their premises in a fictional way. I had replies from everyone contacted and all to the affirmative, so i thanked them individually within the book.


Thanking them within the book is great idea!  I'd imagine it brings them some fame.  In your case using the actual names would help to sell the book as well, as it could be marketed in the tourist industry, and possibly even by them.


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## indianroads (Jul 9, 2022)

Do you really NEED to mention the brand name?
You might instead say, he wore a watch costing more than twenty grand and drove a half million dollar Italian sport car.


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## Taylor (Jul 9, 2022)

indianroads said:


> Do you really NEED to mention the brand name?
> You might instead say, he wore a watch costing more than twenty grand and drove a half-million-dollar Italian sports car.


Yes, it's definitely an option I'm considering.  I have a meeting with a U.S. trademark lawyer this week.  I'm also going to explore getting permission.  The story is much better with the brand names.  At this point, I prefer to learn the viability of all of my options first and then make the call.  Everything I learn on this one will guide me for the next one.

As I was writing it, I always knew I had an issue and I thought it would resolve itself.   But here I am still trying to figure it all out. But I'll get there!


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## indianroads (Jul 9, 2022)

Be patient, and you will.


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## Xander416 (Jul 11, 2022)

TerraLiga said:


> Do you have any examples of legal precedence? I heard of personal libel cases, but not corporate.


Does Activision v AM General count?









						Activision Wins Call Of Duty Lawsuit Related To Using Humvees In The Franchise
					


A judge rules that Activision was not infringing on GM's copyright by using the military vehicle in its war series.





					www.gamespot.com


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## TerraLiga (Jul 11, 2022)

Xander416 said:


> Does Activision v AM General count?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Unless you equate a book with a game, no.


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## Taylor (Jul 11, 2022)

Xander416 said:


> Does Activision v AM General count?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


An excellent example!  Activision won the case, but they would have incurred legal costs of defense by not having a licensing agreement. And it is the *First Amendment* under the _Constitution_ and the* Rogers test* that protect fiction authors, not the fair use exemption under the _Copyright Act _as many think incorrectly.

The ruling was based on the fact that they were depicting a "US military vehicle paid for by American taxpayers and used in every war and conflict for decades."  They weren't depicting the brand, Humvee.



TerraLiga said:


> Unless you equate a book with a game, no.


I believe it is relevant.  It's based on the same legal protection and principle of *suppressing artistic freedom.*


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## Mark Twain't (Jul 11, 2022)

Is it any different to using brand names anywhere else? For example, if I say in this post that I drive a Hyundai, should I have asked permission first? Not intending to be flippant, but this is published text so how does it differ from a novel?

In my yet to be published novel,  one of my characters drives a 1966 Spider and yes, mentioning the model is relevant, and it didn't occur to me for a single second that there might be an issue. It still doesn't. 

Oh, and I also mention that two other vehicles are a BMW and a Range Rover.


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## Taylor (Jul 11, 2022)

Mark Twain't said:


> Is it any different to using brand names anywhere else? For example, if I say in this post that I drive a Hyundai, should I have asked permission first? Not intending to be flippant, but this is published text so how does it differ from a novel?
> 
> In my yet to be published novel,  one of my characters drives a 1966 Spider and yes, mentioning the model is relevant, and it didn't occur to me for a single second that there might be an issue. It still doesn't.
> 
> Oh, and I also mention that two other vehicles are a BMW and a Range Rover.


No, the post is different.  It is covered under the copyright, fair use exemption as a one-time use for non-profit educational purposes.  The reference in your fiction novels may be protected under constitutional freedom of speech and artistic expression depending on the country.

 I can't speak about your specific issue but look at the earlier post from @VRanger.









						Getting Permission to use Brand Names
					


I don't know the answer to this question but I am pretty sure I've read that it's necessary to get permission to use a brand name (at least in the U.S.) If the book isn't a success it probably doesn't matter much. But if the book is successful in sales, then it's likely another story altogether...





					www.writingforums.com
				




Also bear in mind that copyright rules differ in different countries.   I spoke to a lawyer who indicated they are the most lenient in the U.S.  I believe It depends on where the tradename is registered and where the book is published.


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## Taylor (Jul 11, 2022)

*This thread isn't about needing permission in the usual course of a novel, it is about some authors getting permission under certain circumstances.

Has anyone had any experience or know of anyone else's experience with asking permission to use a brand name in their novel?*


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## VRanger (Jul 11, 2022)

Mark Twain't said:


> Is it any different to using brand names anywhere else? For example, if I say in this post that I drive a Hyundai, should I have asked permission first? Not intending to be flippant, but this is published text so how does it differ from a novel?


No concern at all. People might as well be concerned about telling their friend they just bought something and mentioning the brand.


Mark Twain't said:


> In my yet to be published novel,  one of my characters drives a 1966 Spider and yes, mentioning the model is relevant, and it didn't occur to me for a single second that there might be an issue. It still doesn't.


It isn't an issue.


Mark Twain't said:


> Oh, and I also mention that two other vehicles are a BMW and a Range Rover.


They should be happy for the publicity. ;-)

These brand names have nothing to do with copyright. They MIGHT have something to do with trademark, if they are trademarked. And you don't violate trademark by mentioning the mark. You violate trademark by offering a product or service for sale using the trademark, or something so close to it as to confuse potential customers. As I mentioned in my earlier post, if you use the trademark in generic fashion, you might, if it comes to the holder's attention, get a letter requesting you not do so. Holders of trademarks are required to defend them against unauthorized or generic use, or they lose their right to the trademark.

You also don't need to include the "TM" or "(R)" symbols when you mention a trademarked product. The owner of the trademark MUST, but not you.


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## Taylor (Aug 6, 2022)

For anyone who followed this thread, I wanted to close it off with the actual U.S. laws.  I know it's dry stuff, but If you can take the time to read or scan it, it will give you the confidence you may need to go forward with using brand names.  I know it did for me. 

It appears that intellectual property such as Trademarks are governed under individual Acts but are still protected under general *U.S. Copyright Law* as "Transitional and Related Statutory Provisions", under Appendix E.

https://www.copyright.gov/title17/title17.pdf

Interesting how they have set it up, but I think it's to enable provisions such as infringement and fair use to be applied universally over all Acts.


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