# "Dead" Genres



## luckyscars (Dec 24, 2020)

*MOD Note: This might be more of a publishing topic, but I think it extends past publishing...*

Was skimming through the blogs and found a couple references to dead genres -- i.e. genres/subgenres that, for one reason or other, are sufficiently unattractive to publishers that simply by a book being categorized it will likely be rejected. 

For the most part, this is due to saturation in the market. In some cases, it is down to cultural shifts or change in reader tastes over time. I did some more research and the following were commonly cited as being so out of vogue as to be described as 'dead', currently:

- Dystopia, particularly YA
- YA science fiction
- Epic poetry
- Epistolary novels
- Westerns
- Vampire romance
- Zombies anything
- Pirate 'swashbuckler'
- Invasion literature
- Men's adventure
- Steampunk
- World War II

It's notable that there were always possibilities for exceptions and variables in most of these so I'm not sure how valid these are, but I can kind of see the point. I find it very hard to imagine dystopia being popular at the moment, and it's easy to see how cultural shifts would move away from traditionally popular themes that are prone to un-politically correct content like pirates. Oversaturation makes sense with zombies and steampunk. Others I am less clear about. Not sure what epistolary novels did to upset anyone and it's strange to me that YA science fiction could be a tough sell considering how popular Star Wars still is with kids.

In any case, I thought it was kind of interesting to think about the idea of certain literary archetypes being so unfashionable they may become 'dead'. What does it mean to say such a thing? Are these things really dead or do they just need reinvention?


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## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord (Dec 24, 2020)

Some of this is surprising to me because I've seen mags etc. seeking out some of these genres ... there's still western magazines, definitely steampunk, and I know for a fact that Cast of Wonders seeks out YA science fiction. Is it literary agents who are saying these genres are hard sells and/or 'dead'?


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## Theglasshouse (Dec 24, 2020)

Good question arrow. I am doubting young adult science fiction is dead. I agree with the rest though. If you cross genres sometimes it can work such as apocalypse and western.


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## midnightpoet (Dec 24, 2020)

I don't think my chosen genres of mystery, thriller and crime have one foot in the grave, although some, like private eyes and hard-boiled/noir have had their day (although still holding on, I think for few but loyal readers like me).


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## indianroads (Dec 24, 2020)

Wow... quite a list, and surprising to me.



> - Dystopia, particularly YA
> - YA science fiction
> - Epic poetry
> - Epistolary novels
> ...



Some of these categories I've not read much of, but these still seem popular: 

Dystopia and SciFi for YA or OA (old adults)
Romance (paranormal and otherwise)
Alien invasion (which should be included in SciFi)
Men's adventure


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## Suzilla (Dec 24, 2020)

A lot of popular dystopian books always same to be going in the same creative direction, so maybe that's why it's considered a dead genre? There's just a lot of different ways to go about the possible future, but people just don't decide to step out of that neighborhood of "government bad, propaganda bad, revolution good."


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## ironpony (Dec 24, 2020)

I agree with zombies and dystipia being dead, but not sure if I agree with the others.   I haven't seen Western's hardy at all nowadays, so bringing it back would seem like a revival.


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## luckyscars (Dec 24, 2020)

ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord said:


> Is it literary agents who are saying these genres are hard sells and/or 'dead'?



Yeah, which obviously opens the door to all kinds of skepticism, but I guess if we're talking from a traditional-publishing standpoint they are the people who would know.



indianroads said:


> Wow... quite a list, and surprising to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just to be clear, these aren't my choices. It's blogs by others but some of them are fairly sound (https://bookstr.com/list/5-ya-genres-that-are-totally-dead/)

I think in some of these cases it is because they are popular and the outcome is saturation. It gets confusing because when we hear 'dead' we assume 'nobody's reading' but really it could just be that the market is full of other books already. Fast food burger chains are obviously popular, but in a world with McDonalds plus 1,000 imitators, the market can be saturated and thereby 'dead' compared to, say, a chain specializing in Sri Lankan style curry, which is less known/less inherently desirable to the US consumer than hamburgers but also has zero competition. 

Which sort of leads into the main juice of the thread which is...what to do if you have a story in an obviously unfashionable or oversubscribed genre? Is this something to be completely ignored? Would you try to reinvent (if so, how?)? Or is it smarter to stick to genres with some sort of recognizable target market?


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## Tettsuo (Dec 24, 2020)

Great info! Glad to know I didn't write my lastest WIP in any of those genres.


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## EternalGreen (Dec 24, 2020)

some thoughts



luckyscars said:


> - Dystopia, particularly YA
> I agree.
> - YA science fiction
> Not sure about this one.
> ...


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## Llyralen (Dec 24, 2020)

Surely some of these have got to be like reoccurring fashions.   Bell bottoms will be on the rise again.  Definitely whenever something really GOOD gets written it happens. A cascade of interest happens.    I think many people's book choices are fad-driven... which is not how I tick, personally.

Interestingly to me...heroic historic/legendary epics are popping up in films everywhere.  I've been trying to tell my husband one of us should write the story of Arminius for years and now _Barbarians_ is on Netflix.  Loved it, btw.  Before the show Vikings came out when I said I was writing a book about Vikings people definitely looked at me funny...it was not vogue to be into since Nazi times (yes I hate that link) ... but now it's cool again.   And luckily few people think about how the heroic stories played a part in aggressive nationalism in the late 1800s to 1940s.  And I probably shouldn't bring that history up due to my own interest in writing from heroic times. 

But anyway, bring on the beehives and bellbottoms.   I can't imagine someone turning away something that is really GOOD.   Someone has to create a fad.


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## Taylor (Dec 24, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> *
> In any case, I thought it was kind of interesting to think about the idea of certain literary archetypes being so unfashionable they may become 'dead'. What does it mean to say such a thing? Are these things really dead or do they just need reinvention?



Possibly reinvention, but likely not for a while and probably with a twist. When I read your post, I first thought of Chivalric Romances. I mean Miguel de Cervantes made a career of recycling the concepts to create the masterpiece Don Quixote. Albeit poking fun at the absurdity of the original genre. But then I wonder if they were also the inspiration for the superhero genre?

If we compare it to the artworld, we know that artists are inspired by their predecessors, but if we look at science or mechanics, they are only forward looking. We wouldn't go back to studying medicinal practices that no longer work or building cars from the twenties. So where does writing fit?  Will previous works inspire a reinvention?

I think we have to analyze what needs they served before. The human mind likely will still crave the same sensory satisfaction they provided. For example, Vampire romance. What are the desired sensory elements? Defiance, sensuality, worldliness, sophistication, danger, the forbidden fruit... Is _Fifty Shades of Grey_ a modern version?


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## Kyle R (Dec 24, 2020)

I'm surprised that "YA Science Fiction" has been listed as a dying genre. Perhaps it's because I write YA Sci Fi (and YA Fantasy), so I'm hyper-aware of all the big successes that have been coming out in those categories.

Heck, Neal Shusterman's _Scythe _trilogy (published last year) was so popular, one could compare it to a modern _Hunger Games_ (which'll be even more apparent when the movie is released).

Though, I suppose we could argue that authors like Shusterman are more of the exception, rather than the norm.

I also don't know if agree that Steampunk is a dead/dying genre. I'd say it's been pretty consistent at where it lies. It's not mainstream, for sure, but I haven't seen any signs that it's struggling, either. It seems to kind of hover at where it lies, like many other niche genres.

I'd say that there are certainly some genres that feel more like swampy backwaters, where things just go to die ... but, like a lot of things, all it takes is one breakout hit to alter the trendline.


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## indianroads (Dec 24, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> [...]
> Which sort of leads into the main juice of the thread which is...what to do if you have a story in an obviously unfashionable or oversubscribed genre? Is this something to be completely ignored? Would you try to reinvent (if so, how?)? Or is it smarter to stick to genres with some sort of recognizable target market?



I write it. If the story finds an audience, great, otherwise I had the joy of writing it and certainly at least a few out there will be entertained.

My WIP is a risk. 

Dystopian - dead genre so you say, but so what?
I feel the risk is more regarding my main characters - both are train wrecks. The male is a brutal serial killer without a conscience and the female is hell-bent on her career and will do anything to anyone to get ahead. They grow and change over the course of the story, but still leave a lot of blood and wreckage in their wakes. The theme is redemption.

Will the book be popular? I don't know, maybe... maybe not. I think it's a good story and believe the characters being so different than the norm that it will be interesting to someone.


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## Taylor (Dec 24, 2020)

indianroads said:


> I write it. If the story finds an audience, great, otherwise I had the joy of writing it and certainly at least a few out there will be entertained.
> 
> My WIP is a risk.
> 
> ...



It's interesting to think about a career in a dystopian society.  I don't want you to give away anything, but why did you choose the dystopian genre for this story?


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## Olly Buckle (Dec 24, 2020)

Why specifically World War II ?  I would expect WWI on the same basis, I have hardly seen anything about Korea, one short about air combat,, and Vietnam was hugely overdone and now it's a holiday destination.


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## midnightpoet (Dec 24, 2020)

my first novel, circa 1985, was a private eye yarn and I was advised by a few editors/agents that the genre was already done to death and they didn't think mine added anything new.  Well, it was a learning experience which helped me later and I did get published - so I think any genre is worthwhile if you're willing to learn from it.  I have noticed that many of the recent westerns, for example, are deconstructions or parodies.  If I could write another "Blazing Saddles" it might be worth a try.


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## indianroads (Dec 24, 2020)

Taylor said:


> It's interesting to think about a career in a dystopian society.  I don't want you to give away anything, but why did you choose the dystopian genre for this story?



I've never really thought about it. Stories just pop up in my head, and they're set wherever they are. I do enjoy writing dystopian worlds - and I kinda think that's the direction the world is heading. When I was a kid, everyone thought we'd be like the Jetsons and have flying cars, anti-gravity boots, and robot maids by now, that didn't didn't happen. We were also supposed to land on Mars in the 1980's. Seriously, I believe dystopia is a more likely future for our species, yes - we have fancy phones and video games, but we remain the same old violent intolerant monkeys at heart.

In writing, I feel that strife / conflict bring forth our true nature, and my stories have always been about who we really are and what we do to each other. On the plus side, my books have themes such as perseverance, indomitable spirit, compassion, and redemption - and it's easier to bring those traits forward when my characters are under stress.


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## luckyscars (Dec 25, 2020)

Llyralen said:


> Bell bottoms will be on the rise again.



I mean, they probably said that about togas, crinolines, top hats and corsets at some point and we're still waiting on those. 

I don't necessarily disagree with the spirit of your point -- that a lot of this stuff is cyclical -- but I think we sometimes overstate that. Some things really do die and never come back at all... 



Taylor said:


> I think we have to analyze what needs they served before. The human mind likely will still crave the same sensory satisfaction they provided. For example, Vampire romance. What are the desired sensory elements? Defiance, sensuality, worldliness, sophistication, danger, the forbidden fruit... Is _Fifty Shades of Grey_ a modern version?



Yeah, that's pretty fair.

A good example is the Western genre. Arguably one of its more persistent attractions (and the reason it hasn't _completely _died out) is because the myth of the frontier is so pervasive. It's not a total coincidence, in my opinion, that Westerns started going the way of the dodo around the time human beings started to seriously explore space (mid-seventies). A lot of the things that people found intriguing about the Wild West simply changed setting: Aliens became the Indians, etc. What is the Starship Enterprise if not a pioneer wagon? There's a reason Woody resented Buzz Lightyear.



Kyle R said:


> I'm surprised that "YA Science Fiction" has been listed as a dying genre. Perhaps it's because I write YA Sci Fi (and YA Fantasy), so I'm hyper-aware of all the big successes that have been coming out in those categories.
> 
> Heck, Neal Shusterman's _Scythe _trilogy (published last year) was so popular, one could compare it to a modern _Hunger Games_ (which'll be even more apparent when the movie is released).
> 
> ...



I think it's saturation, again. It's kind of funny because we get into this thing of "it's not dying, look at all these books that are out there!" but all *those books* might be the reason *our book* doesn't have a place in the readership. I tend to agree that it's self-defeating to chase trends, though. I mean, I'm pretty sure Wizards weren't exactly in vogue before Harry Potter. At the end of the day, a great book is a great book. 

A lot of this comes down to expectations, though. Like, I have seen dystopia being cited as being so toxic to trad publishers right now that the moment they get a sniff that's what the book is about (which, obviously, will be long before they have actually started reading it) that they'll simply reject it out of hand. That's obviously not a tenable situation. I don't know if that applies to everything being discussed here, but there's no doubt the chance of selling a piece of epic poetry _regardless of how good it is _is practically zero.

What it really means, I think, is that the standards are simply much higher for stuff that isn't fashionable. You're simply not going to see it on as many wishlists.



Olly Buckle said:


> Why specifically World War II ?  I would expect WWI on the same basis, I have hardly seen anything about Korea, one short about air combat,, and Vietnam was hugely overdone and now it's a holiday destination.



Dunno. Well, all right, I have an idea. World War II is obviously massively subscribed (it's almost a genre in itself, especially now that much of it has gravitated away from 'war books' to period romances and domestic dramas on the home front) but it also lends itself to rather conservative storytelling that lacks complexity. In World War II, war is a matter of good versus evil and evil has a swastika and a German accent (occasionally Japanese, which is problematic in other ways) and good speaks English (usually American, sometimes British for a hoot, almost never anybody else) and essentially the whole thing becomes rather parochial, doesn't it? I mean, the key thing is there is very little left to write about World War Two. We have had stories examining almost every corner of it, everybody knows them, and there's only so much "omg holocaust" that doesn't become fatiguing. I suspect World War Two will need a very long break.

World War One I actually think is a relatively interesting war. Not least because it was bananas and most people don't really understand what the hell it was all about -- it was all about very little of importance and yet had such an impact on the twentieth century. There's also a huge banality of evil angle you get with World War One. You can chalk almost every wickedness to bravado and idiocy.  Not to mention the trenches were truly terrifying simply from an image perspective. Have there been many books written about WWI in the modern era? Maybe there have, I can't think of any. I'd rather like to read a horror novel set in the trenches.

Vietnam is probably dead, honestly. Another war built on ego and idiocy but rather less interesting and far more has been written about it than probably was ever warranted. Nothing remotely glamorous about it and it's fading from relevancy now that the generation who fought it is dying off. Before I think there was a place for Vietnam fiction because it was so embedded in pop culture and there was a sense of closure being needed for the Boomer generation who were affected by it...but now, not so much.

I think wars generally are pretty unattractive to people now. Not least because they tend to glorify imperialism and are invariably told from an entirely white, western perspective about entirely white, western problems and with too much adherence to the binary good/evil mentioned before. Just a lot of minefields a lot of the time. The US Civil War is probably the most obvious example. Maybe something obscure would find a niche, but because it's obscure I can't think what that might be!


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## clark (Dec 25, 2020)

Luckyscar-- an intelligent and insightful post well-expressed. Thank you. You make a number of excellent points, one being the durability of a really good plot. Will we ever tire of a flawed, even fearful, but determined hero who is prepared to journey to the underworld to both defeat the forces of Evil and "find" himself in the process. That thematic thread is in the _Epic of Gilgamesh (_ about 6000 years ago) and in tens of thousands of poems and stories down through the millennia, often metaphorically in the modern era.  So literary 'freshness' exists on only two planes: *unique little twists* of plot and event (small example--in Raiders of the Lost Ark, when we are expecting the [yawn] duel between Harrison Ford's bullwhip and the Arab swordmaster's magic blade, but our hero draws his gun and just shoots his opponent dead; and *innovative style* (small example -- Cormac McCarthy's stunning poetic prose in his novels). There is literally nothing new to say. And we shouldn't be surprised. Og's primary concerns both in and out of the cave are the same as Mr Success's concerns up on the 59th floor of his glass & steel tower and down on his lavish estate in the suburbs. Pope put it SOOOOO well in his "Essay on Criticism", 289 years ago:

True wit is Nature to advantage dressed,
What oft was thought, but ne'er so well expressed.

Ain't no new ideas young 'un . . .all we got is HOW we do it as writers. But that is indeed enough. More than enough to put our unique stamp on Homer's concerns.


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## Sir-KP (Dec 25, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> I did some more research and the following were commonly cited as being so out of vogue as to be described as 'dead', currently:
> 
> - Dystopia, particularly YA



:|


On topic:

Mafioso / Classic mob genre?


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## BornForBurning (Dec 25, 2020)

> Vietnam was hugely overdone


So much so, in fact, that by the time we were sick of it it had crept into freaking _Star Wars, _of all things. 

I agree Western is dead, probably for the same reason Men's Adventure is dead. It's dang difficult to relate to the kind of world the classic Western authors painted. The Old West is isolated, stripped down, compartmentalized. Our world is seething, glittering, a hyper-connected blur of pixels and electronics. Plus, big men don't ride horses and shoot guns anymore. They plug into the matrix. Their girlfriends are cyber-mechanics rather than housewives. It's sad, honestly. I grew up on the pulp western. L'Amour specifically. Still, the tropes evolve. The aforementioned _Star Wars _might be a good example. They were certainly trying to hit that vibe in _The Mandalorian. _I'm of the opinion that Cyberpunk is the genre-sequel to the Western, at least in the American context. The big city, growing so large it consumes all, even its own citizens. Of course, the big, evil dude with a cigar is still the villain. Because Corrupted Authority is _always _the bad guy in American mythology. 

Still, that's not the modern evolution of the Western per se. I think the Western might still be resurrected, as a _Western_, not whatever we find feeding on Western's corpse. _Starcraft _is probably the best example. *cue intense white trash southern accent and warbling rockabilly tunes.* "Looks like you hit someone's dog, sarge." "That's a zerglin' Lester. Smaller type 'a zerg."


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## luckyscars (Dec 26, 2020)

BornForBurning said:


> So much so, in fact, that by the time we were sick of it it had crept into freaking _Star Wars, _of all things.



I have read things that take this quite a bit further, in fact. There are arguments (only arguments, it must be said) that just about every movie made in the 70's-mid 80's functioned as some sort of reaction to the Vietnam War and its surrounding politics simply by osmosis because the war left such a huge impact on the generation affected.

Kind of odd because I don't think most Americans nowadays consider it as being a particularly major event. Certainly to most younger folks it's barely a footnote. But culturally I think it carried a lot of lasting weight. The more I think about it, prior to the Vietnam era it was quite rare that American movies ever featured Americans (or fictional proxies for America) as the bad guys. Pre-Vietnam, the bad guys in most American fiction were usually played by some sort of outlaw: Gangsters, criminals, foreign powers, Native Americans. There wasn't really a concept of the actual government being 'evil' or 'corrupt', and there wasn't really a strong anti-imperialist message. Star Wars is very literally anti-imperialist and carries some rather strong themes regarding that. 

I'm not sure why that is different now exactly, only that I think it is. Maybe the Vietnam era simply expired naturally and that was always going to be the case as the generation started phasing out of the picture. Maybe it's because more recent events (specifically thinking of 9/11) reset the zeitgeist. A lot of the important lessons probably carried over anyway.



> I agree Western is dead, probably for the same reason Men's Adventure is dead. It's dang difficult to relate to the kind of world the classic Western authors painted. The Old West is isolated, stripped down, compartmentalized. Our world is seething, glittering, a hyper-connected blur of pixels and electronics. Plus, big men don't ride horses and shoot guns anymore. They plug into the matrix. Their girlfriends are cyber-mechanics rather than housewives. It's sad, honestly. I grew up on the pulp western. L'Amour specifically. Still, the tropes evolve. The aforementioned _Star Wars _might be a good example. They were certainly trying to hit that vibe in _The Mandalorian. _I'm of the opinion that Cyberpunk is the genre-sequel to the Western, at least in the American context. The big city, growing so large it consumes all, even its own citizens. Of course, the big, evil dude with a cigar is still the villain. Because Corrupted Authority is _always _the bad guy in American mythology.
> 
> Still, that's not the modern evolution of the Western per se. I think the Western might still be resurrected, as a _Western_, not whatever we find feeding on Western's corpse. _Starcraft _is probably the best example. *cue intense white trash southern accent and warbling rockabilly tunes.* "Looks like you hit someone's dog, sarge." "That's a zerglin' Lester. Smaller type 'a zerg."



I see where you're coming from and, logically, it makes total sense. The part I would have difficulty with is that Cyberpunk (genre) has been around for several decades now and isn't super popular, certainly nowhere close to as popular as Westerns were. I mean, let's start with the fact that a lot of pretty avid readers aren't even sure what 'cyberpunk' is and aren't necessarily interested to learn. Why is that? Is it a branding issue, or something more complex?

Quite honestly, I never thought the appeal of Westerns for a lot of folks was really much beyond the romantic idea of 'cowboy'. What is replaceable, thematical, can be found in things like Cyberpunk, things like Star Wars, even certain 'urbanized' revivals: Shows like Breaking Bad incorporate a lot of Western themes and tropes and do so effectively. But it isn't enough to replace all of it for everyone because, ultimately, the Western world and mythos was also about aesthetics for a lot of people. Pretty hoodoos, winding rivers, rugged landscapes, canyons and corrals and cool hats. You can't get that shit in Cyberpunk. 

I'm not sure why that aesthetic is not longer as appealing but I guess it just does come down to changing tastes and an evolving concept of what America/Americanism is, or ought to be. Most Americans live in cities and suburbs now. Fifty years ago that was not so much the case. I can see why a little boy growing up in rural Iowa or whatever would have taken to the myth of cowboys as 'kind of like my dad but cooler'. Those same little boys, more likely, now live in suburban communities and feel little attachment to the aesthetic. While having first-hand attachment to something is not necessary, if you are going to pick a genre based on pure escapism and an adventure into absolute myth (as opposed to realism or partial realism) why would you choose cowboys and Indians over, say, knights and dragons? Knights and dragons, of course, are still very popular. So yeah, from a reader perspective, there's just no real need to fixate on Westerns, no need to give them preferential treatment over fantasy, because the Western IS fantasy now. Fifty years ago, it felt more like history, if not almost-reality.


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## BornForBurning (Dec 26, 2020)

> I see where you're coming from and, logically, it makes total sense. The part I would have difficulty with is that Cyberpunk (genre) has been around for several decades now and isn't super popular, certainly nowhere close to as popular as Westerns were. I mean, let's start with the fact that a lot of pretty avid readers aren't even sure what 'cyberpunk' is and aren't necessarily interested to learn. Why is that? Is it a branding issue, or something more complex?


Sure, hardly anybody knows what _Neuromancer _is, that's true. But think about the ridiculous level of permeation the Cyberpunk tropes have had with regards to video games, film, anime, board games...when you add all that up, the reach is humungous. And it's getting bigger. It grows, because the Cyberpunk future is now, and Cyberpunk stories have intense explanatory power. Even the most culturally illiterate have that immortal image of a half-human, half-machine bombshell-gorgeous female cyborg in their heads, the girl that immaculate, almost imperceptible Mona Lisa-grin. She's smiling, because she's here to stay. The Machine is the new protagonist. What happens to the human condition when it's completely divorced from everything we think of as 'traditionally' human? According to Cyberpunk, not much. We're still craven, corrupt, fallen human beings. That's its genius.


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## bdcharles (Dec 26, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> It's notable that there were always possibilities for exceptions and variables in most of these so I'm not sure how valid these are, but I can kind of see the point. I find it very hard to imagine dystopia being popular at the moment, and it's easy to see how cultural shifts would move away from traditionally popular themes that are prone to un-politically correct content like pirates. Oversaturation makes sense with zombies and steampunk. Others I am less clear about. Not sure what epistolary novels did to upset anyone and it's strange to me that YA science fiction could be a tough sell considering how popular Star Wars still is with kids.
> 
> In any case, I thought it was kind of interesting to think about the idea of certain literary archetypes being so unfashionable they may become 'dead'. What does it mean to say such a thing? Are these things really dead or do they just need reinvention?



For me, it's all so subjective and vague that it's hard to take seriously or to really be that bothered. It seems that pretty much anything goes if one can make it fly.


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## JJBuchholz (Dec 26, 2020)

Dystopia makes sense, because everyone does it and there are no original ideas anymore that are any good. A lot of writers I interact with on Twitter write dystopia, and then can't figure out why no one pics it up/likes it/etc. Completely over-written genre that needs to go.

-JJB


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## Elenxes_II (Dec 26, 2020)

I think zombies, at least, can be done in an unique way. Of course, I have an interest in that because one of my WIPs is about a world where the sun basically zombifies people, lol.

Still, a lot can be done interestingly and different if you just take a step back. My main project began as a single question: What if the Chosen One, destined to topple an empire, was evil? From that, I twisted a lot of tropes into something new. The princess/good queen is an antihero, the knight in shining armor is a romantic interest rather than the main, the ancient sorcerer isn’t that evil, just indifferent... Maybe it’ll bomb, but at least I’m going to create something unique. 

I’d say that dead genres are never really dead, they just change forms. You could say that ASOIAF is the natural successor of Beowulf or the Illiad.


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## indianroads (Dec 27, 2020)

JJBuchholz said:


> Dystopia makes sense, because everyone does it and there are no original ideas anymore that are any good. A lot of writers I interact with on Twitter write dystopia, and then can't figure out why no one pics it up/likes it/etc. Completely over-written genre that needs to go.
> 
> -JJB



Often popular genres become staid because the authors writing them follow the same trajectory... dystopian for example, far too many involve an EMP - which was interesting five or ten years ago, but it's overdone. My belief is that it isn't the genre that's dead, but it's the overused plots that are dead.

SciFi and dystopia especially can lend itself to all sorts of interesting perspectives and twists. Those 'genres' are just the world of the novel. Take Star Wars for instance, that could have been written as a WW2 novel. Build a world and you can tell any story within it.

It's better to step away from template plots and create something new, and dead genres be damned.


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## ironpony (Dec 27, 2020)

Another dead genre perhaps is how the future has turned into a totalitarian state.  Unless a new spin can be put on it maybe.


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## Taylor (Dec 27, 2020)

indianroads said:


> I've never really thought about it. Stories just pop up in my head, and they're set wherever they are. I do enjoy writing dystopian worlds - and I kinda think that's the direction the world is heading. When I was a kid, everyone thought we'd be like the Jetsons and have flying cars, anti-gravity boots, and robot maids by now, that didn't didn't happen. We were also supposed to land on Mars in the 1980's. Seriously, I believe dystopia is a more likely future for our species, yes - we have fancy phones and video games, but we remain the same old violent intolerant monkeys at heart.
> 
> In writing, I feel that strife / conflict bring forth our true nature, and my stories have always been about who we really are and what we do to each other. On the plus side, my books have themes such as perseverance, indomitable spirit, compassion, and redemption - and it's easier to bring those traits forward when my characters are under stress.



Tend to agree with the way the world is heading.  I haven't read a lot of dystopian books, but your themes sound like the type of thing I like to read.  Which one of your books do you recommend?


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## indianroads (Dec 27, 2020)

Taylor said:


> Tend to agree with the way the world is heading.  I haven't read a lot of dystopian books, but your themes sound like the type of thing I like to read.  Which one of your books do you recommend?



I just finished a dystopian series called 'Extinction'. Dystopia is just the world though, the series is about the possible future evolution of our species. 'Departure' is the first novel - while each novel is stand-alone the series arc is best found when they are read sequentially.


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## luckyscars (Dec 27, 2020)

BornForBurning said:


> Sure, hardly anybody knows what _Neuromancer _is, that's true. But think about the ridiculous level of permeation the Cyberpunk tropes have had with regards to video games, film, anime, board games...when you add all that up, the reach is humungous. And it's getting bigger. It grows, because the Cyberpunk future is now, and Cyberpunk stories have intense explanatory power. Even the most culturally illiterate have that immortal image of a half-human, half-machine bombshell-gorgeous female cyborg in their heads, the girl that immaculate, almost imperceptible Mona Lisa-grin. She's smiling, because she's here to stay. The Machine is the new protagonist. What happens to the human condition when it's completely divorced from everything we think of as 'traditionally' human? According to Cyberpunk, not much. We're still craven, corrupt, fallen human beings. That's its genius.



I agree the potential is there. I don't think I agree the reach is currently very humongous -- at least, not compared to the Western was once -- nor that it will become humongous in the near future.

I think people (especially writers) tend to overestimate the appeal of technology as a source of emotional attachment. For a lot of laypeople, machines are -- and will likely for awhile -- be seen as unappealing, if not downright terrifying. Look at the absolute contempt most ordinary folk have toward even the most benign forms of technology like IVR phone operators. Look at how many people dislike drones flying in their neighborhood. Look at the reactions to self-driving cars. People may interact with these things, may be conscious of them, but do they _enjoy _them? Do they find them interesting on the level of the cowboy yet?

It's worth remembering, I think, that readers come from vastly different walks of life and age/education levels and all-too-often we assume some degree of homogeneity among readers. But what about readers who are fifty plus and still reading paperbacks? That's a big chunk of readers. Are they 'culturally illiterate' for not knowing about/caring about cyborgs in 2020? I don't think I'm comfortable with saying that. I think we're in a weird moment of having one foot in the 'cyberpunk is now' era and one firmly in the twentieth century or earlier and I don't see that either has won the culture war yet. Historical fiction is more popular now than ever. There are movements against the technology, romanticizing luddites, back to the land stuff, people getting married in vintage dresses and buying each other vinyl records. This sort of thing indicates, to me, that futurism of the sort you describe is very polarizing. Whether it will always be polarizing or not I am not sure, but I don't think it bodes well for a genre or literary movement if a lot of people find what it is promoting really obnoxious and ugly.


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## apocalypsegal (Dec 28, 2020)

It goes in cycles. Everything is dead until the right book comes along. Point in question:  vampire novels deader than dead, until _Twilight_ showed up. Now YA vampire romance is almost done again, but some variation will come around again in a few years.

The thing with Westerns is that the generation that normally read them is dying out. Pretty much the same with WW II, and a lot of the action/adventure/men's fiction stuff. But, a new generation will find them and it will be a hot genre again. Maybe look a little different, but it will be hot.

Even in self publishing, people keep proclaiming this or that is  dead, usually in terms of being an overly competitive market, but you  can still find readers and sell books. It might cost in ad expense, but  it can be done. Or write something that's just different enough to spark  interest.


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## VRanger (Dec 28, 2020)

apocalypsegal said:


> Even in self publishing, people keep proclaiming this or that is  dead, usually in terms of being an overly competitive market



Reminds me of the Berra'ism, actually used for decades by different comics before Berra tried it out: "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded."


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## Olly Buckle (Dec 29, 2020)

vranger said:


> Reminds me of the Berra'ism, actually used for decades by different comics before Berra tried it out: "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded."



I had never heard of the guy and looked him up, there are some great ones there, I think my favourite is "It's like deja vu all over again"


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## Taylor (Dec 29, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> Which sort of leads into the main juice of the thread which is...what to do if you have a story in an obviously unfashionable or oversubscribed genre? Is this something to be completely ignored? Would you try to reinvent (if so, how?)? Or is it smarter to stick to genres with some sort of recognizable target market?



There are some genres that remain popular, like murder mystery and romance.  I think it really depends on the purpose and voice of the author.  Some may prefer to cater to a known target market and stick to a formula, which may be the path of a given success.  That's smart!  

However, let's hope others will pioneer with an undeniable voice that unleashes a new genre.   I recently just heard about Cli-Fi. New genre about the consequences of climate change. Could be a Reinvention of dystopian genre.


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## indianroads (Dec 29, 2020)

I don't think genres die, they may get redefined, or fall out of vogue for a time, but they're mainstays of literature.

Science Fiction for example, has been popular since at least the late 1800's. It's changed of course, just as science has. 
Red Badge of Courage might be classed as dystopian - I'm not someone that comfortable labeling things or people, but I recall several portions of that book that were pretty dark.
Horror goes back a long way too - Shakespeare before Shelly and Stoker.
Romance too - certainly among the oldest genres.
Adventures and fantasy are found in Gilgamesh.

So, dead genres? Nah. I ain't buyin' it. Some may take a nap now and then, but they'll never die.


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## Olly Buckle (Dec 29, 2020)

I have always thought of Gilgamesh as 'Travel', as an account of real places. From a different time and perspective, but real places described differently, not fantasy.


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## VRanger (Dec 29, 2020)

Olly Buckle said:


> I had never heard of the guy and looked him up, there are some great ones there, I think my favourite is "It's like deja vu all over again"



On this side of the pond you probably won't find many who aren't familiar with that one.  Very popular.


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## Newman (Dec 29, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> *MOD Note: This might be more of a publishing topic, but I think it extends past publishing...*
> 
> Was skimming through the blogs and found a couple references to dead genres -- i.e. genres/subgenres that, for one reason or other, are sufficiently unattractive to publishers that simply by a book being categorized it will likely be rejected.
> 
> ...




It's only "dead" until it sells. Then it becomes the new must-have.


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## Olly Buckle (Dec 30, 2020)

> Horror goes back a long way too - Shakespeare before Shelly and Stoker.
> Romance too - certainly among the oldest genres.



Jane Austen talking about the books they read as youngsters talks of 'Lighter novels of terror and of sentiment.'  

Was there a thread somewhere about the language changing, new words for things?


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## indianroads (Dec 30, 2020)

Olly Buckle said:


> Jane Austen talking about the books they read as youngsters talks of 'Lighter novels of terror and of sentiment.'
> 
> Was there a thread somewhere about the language changing, new words for things?



New words are added and subtracted from the english language every year.


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## Matchu (Dec 31, 2020)

New words are not subtracted from a dictionary.  Once the little words in the lifeboats reach shores of our OED they remain forever.  Likewise, old words cannot be bundled away to street lives of destitution [metaphor and allusion, I believe].  I have researched.

It does bring to mind a certain zealous, be-speckled new-fascist at the furnaces, a Winston Smith of a modern age:  'Whom' ? Who says 'whom' on Netflix?  Destroy.  Next victim.'


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