# When to use proper nomenclatures like bitch



## W.Goepner (Mar 15, 2016)

Proper nomenclatures like bitch, meaning the female dog.

I have had two readers suggest I use the proper word for female dog in my piece. One an Englishman or from the UK, the other An older gent with years in the military and years under his belt. 

I have no issues using the proper word if I were writing a story around the dog world as in a dog show and the ring stewards are calling the bitch classes into the ring around the MC. Or if I were writing about maintaining a safe breeding condition, so strays or unplanned breeding between my bitch and the wrong dog, do not occur. I have been included in the conversations at dinner tables in Denny's restaurants and other dinning facilities in many cities along the west coast states. Where the breeding practices of breeders are spoken without reservation, to include birthing and all it entails.

I have looked through books and I read the story of "Big Red" about an Irish setter, the words are there and appropriately used. In my piece I tend to switch the characters between human and dog and refer to them as women and female dogs in accordance to their forms. I do not see using Bitch for Linda simply because she has changed forms to that of a dog.

Now. As I have tried to explain to these two gentlemen. I am willing to use the term IF, it improves the piece or the moment within the telling of the piece. Give me reason to use the proper nomenclature and I will be happy to write it in, But to put it in simply because it is a proper use of the word? Does that sound right? Am I being over protective of my works because I cannot see beyond my upbringing? 

How would it effect any of you ladies? Let me use your name instead of my MC's wife or his dog who can change shapes, then where I describe to the reader that the form you took is that of a bitch aka female dog. With it being nothing but the form you took on not the disgruntled female which the word implies with today's usage. I cannot see it. I think it would have a very negative effect even in the UK. 

Opinions please. I would like to make the piece more readable. If the use of the word bitch would improve the flow over female dog, I would use it. But really? is it necessary?


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## Blade (Mar 15, 2016)

'Female dog' smacks of political correctness and sounds rather stilted IMHO. If 'bitch' is the commonly accepted term then use it; it is not as if you are using the term in reference to a human female.:-k


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## aj47 (Mar 15, 2016)

If it's dialog (either spoken or mental) and the character would use the word, *bitch* is always right.

If it's not dialog and it's clear it's about the beast, then it is also correct, and shorter than *female dog*. 

If you're not sure, then don't use it.  Say *dog*. Generally, it doesn't matter what the gender of the dog is unless she has puppies, in which case it's self-evident anyway.


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## Bishop (Mar 15, 2016)

What astro said, methinks.


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## Jigawatt (Mar 15, 2016)

Invent a word in your story to take the place of (female dog). I like these gender descriptives for canines: she-wolf and alpha male.


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## Sam (Mar 15, 2016)

Just call the dog a bitch. 

Don't invent words, don't call it a 'female dog', and don't try to be politically correct. 

A female dog, fox, or wolf is a bitch.


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## W.Goepner (Mar 15, 2016)

Three responses right off sweet!



Blade said:


> 'Female dog' smacks of political correctness and sounds rather stilted IMHO. If 'bitch' is the commonly accepted term then use it; it is not as if you are using the term in reference to a human female.:-k



OK. I can see that. It is fitting if it is the norm. I am hesitant for that reason alone but I can accept it none the less.



astroannie said:


> If it's dialog (either spoken or mental) and the character would use the word, *bitch* is always right.
> 
> If it's not dialog and it's clear it's about the beast, then it is also correct, and shorter than *female dog*.
> 
> If you're not sure, then don't use it. Say *dog*. Generally, it doesn't matter what the gender of the dog is unless she has puppies, in which case it's self-evident anyway.





Bishop said:


> What astro said, methinks.



This fits with the two of you so I will skip going between.

Rarely does it fit in dialogue in my piece, but OK I see the point.

Aha! I am not sure I am always clear on the character's form so I use *dog form*, more often. 

As I think about it. I use Female or Females more than I use female dog, in either form the characters are in. In one case I have the MC returning to his travel companions two females in dog form. Another case at the beginning, the MC has changed to dog and is walking down stairs next to a female dog. It is narration about the MC's observation of the female beside him and her nimbleness descending the stairs. These are two examples where the two readers have commented about the use of the word. "Why not say bitch for emotional impact?"


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## W.Goepner (Mar 15, 2016)

Two more while I was away.

I agree with Sam No made up names. She-wolf and Alpha-male are fine but I would rather not follow those lines.

Sam I think you are correct I am trying to be politically correct but at the same time I do not think it necessary to use bitch through the story. 

Now I need to go through and check for the phrase, I might not be using it so much as it would distract from the piece to use proper nomenclature. hmm points to ponder. Yup, I got to think it through and see if I need to revise my words or use the right ones. I tried using females to keep from using names every time a character turns around. Which I have a lot of that happening also. Can anyone say rewrite?


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## Sam (Mar 15, 2016)

Has she not got a name? Can you not refer to her by that? 

Failing that, "the dog". 

If you mention her by name, make sure the reader understands it's a bitch, and interchange "the dog" and her name from thereon, everyone will know you're talking about Molly (or whatever her name is) when you say "the dog".


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## W.Goepner (Mar 15, 2016)

Sam said:


> Has she not got a name? Can you not refer to her by that?
> 
> Failing that, "the dog".
> 
> If you mention her by name, make sure the reader understands it's a bitch, and interchange "the dog" and her name from thereon, everyone will know you're talking about Molly (or whatever her name is) when you say "the dog".



Excuse me a minor misunderstanding. This is not so much a story with a dog or dogs in it, as it is a story about a man who finds himself in a place where the dogs can become human and he can become a dog. 

In most instances I use *dog form* when I feel I need to specify the form. I use *female/s* when they are in dog form and it fits the situation. Like when the MC returns to the Females, or the two Females catch up to him. As I think about it and see the few times I use female dog I can simply say dog or dog form. 

Yes in an attempt to be politically and anatomically correct I used female dog. Like this line, "James noticed the agility and nimbleness of this female dog, as she descended the stairs." I can simply say dog and not worry about the female seeing as I shortly after say she. 

I think in my case, knowledge and understanding is a determent. By knowing the proper nomenclature of the canine sexes, I felt to say dog was not enough or improper. The knowledge that someone might raise a fuss about the word bitch, I attempted to pacify both. In truth I needed to consider neither.


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## J Anfinson (Mar 16, 2016)

Context is everything. One of my neighbors has an ass and another has several cocks. For those who aren't familiar with farm animals, that's a donkey and roosters. Use words as they're meant to be used and trust readers to either know or look it up. Or as Sam said, use their given name for a more conversational tone. But don't be afraid of what people might think of any word.


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## Jack of all trades (Mar 16, 2016)

There are two options.

1. Write what feels right to you.

2. Write what seems right for your target audience.

So if this book is for older men, appease your beta readers or yourself, as you prefer. If it's for children, I'd err on the side of political correctness.


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## Sonata (Mar 16, 2016)

Jigawatt said:


> Invent a word in your story to take the place of (female dog). I like these gender descriptives for canines: she-wolf and alpha male.



Dogs are not wolves, they are dogs. Canines. 

Dog - the normal term for any canine if you do not know which gender it is, and if you are talking about male or female, Dog would be the correct word.  If you want to distinguish between male and female dogs, Dog is the correct  term for a male.

To use the term "alpha male" is something only a Cesar Millan fan would use, in fact in a pack of wild wolves, the "top" one - "alpha" if you like that word - is always a female.  

Bitch - the correct, and only, name for a female dog.

The same with cats.  A male cat is called a Tom, a female cat is called a Queen. Whether they have been spayed/neutered or not, those are the correct terms, just as Dog and Bitch are the correct terms for canines.


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## Sonata (Mar 16, 2016)

Jack of all trades said:


> There are two options.
> 
> 1. Write what feels right to you.
> 
> ...



If the book is for children, forget political correctness, and just say "lady dog" or "girl dog".  When people, including children, where I live, ask what my puppy is, the question is always "boy or girl?"


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 16, 2016)

> I attempted to pacify both. In truth I needed to consider neither.


Bang on the money mate, firstly it  is your writing, you should own it, secondly those in either camp are actually going to  be a fairly small minority, as you can see from the replies here most people accept the word used properly, thirdly, even if they are a very vocal small minority does it really matter to you, the person who said 'Any publicity is good publicity' may not have had an absolute truth, but it is usually true.


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## Sam (Mar 16, 2016)

Sonata said:


> Dogs are not wolves, they are dogs. Canines.
> 
> Dog - the normal term for any canine if you do not know which gender it is, and if you are talking about male or female, Dog would be the correct word.  If you want to distinguish between male and female dogs, Dog is the correct  term for a male.
> 
> ...



The term 'dog' can be both male and female. 

Dog (n.) a domesticated carnivorous mammal descended from the wolf, with a barking or howling voice, an acute sense of smell, and non-retractile claws. In particular, any member of the dog family, male or female, which includes the wolf, fox, coyote, jackal, and dhole. 

Bitch is technically the correct term, you're right, but I (and many dog-owners I know) call my bitch a dog.

By the way: there is no alpha or top wolf in the wild. It's a common misconception. Wolves do not have an innate sense of rank -- the 'alphas' are nothing more than parents. None of them have 'won' the role of leader of the pack. Similarly, young wolves do not grow up and try to best the 'alpha' to become leader of the pack. When wolf pups grow and become self-sufficient, they leave their parents' pack and, along with other pups that have left, they form their own wolf pack.


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## Kevin (Mar 16, 2016)

I got a lecture just the other day about using the word bitch, in any circumstance.


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## dale (Mar 16, 2016)

J Anfinson said:


> Context is everything. One of my neighbors has an ass and another has several cocks. For those who aren't familiar with farm animals, that's a donkey and roosters. Use words as they're meant to be used and trust readers to either know or look it up. Or as Sam said, use their given name for a more conversational tone. But don't be afraid of what people might think of any word.



has your neighbor's ass ever sat down on one of the cocks?


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## Tettsuo (Mar 16, 2016)

Don't be a bitch and use bitch!


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## Kevin (Mar 16, 2016)

You see that was my argument, that it no longer was limited to its twentieth century context as a perjoritive, fair more egalitarian ideals having taken it.


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## W.Goepner (Mar 16, 2016)

dale said:


> has your neighbor's ass ever sat down on one of the cocks?


not appropriate please keep to subject!!!


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## W.Goepner (Mar 16, 2016)

Tettsuo said:


> Don't be a bitch and use bitch!


In context your are turning this thread in the wrong direction. I know how to use the term bitch in many mannerisms. I am asking where it is, in a more popular opinion consensuses, correct to use. 

The way you so grossly disrespected my question with your poor display of garbage mouth... In other words, your comments are out of line thank you.


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## EmmaSohan (Mar 16, 2016)

For me, the word bitch is a name you call a female if you don't like her. I know in my brain that it also means female dog, but it takes me a while to get to that meaning. So I vote for not using bitch.

Talking to my friend in the UK, it seems that bitch for female dog is more common.

Laughing, I am happy with the words bitch and ass in writing, I just would never use them to describe animals.


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## W.Goepner (Mar 16, 2016)

Kevin said:


> You see that was my argument, that it no longer was limited to its twentieth century context as a perjoritive, fair more egalitarian ideals having taken it.



Point is, even in your explanation, you have it turned about. It started out in non pejorative usage, the human mind has warped it into the twentieth century meaning it now holds. Not the other way around.

Anyone who says to use the word is wrong in any context themselves are mistaking. I recommend not using it around them and respectfully agree it is a term like the "N" word which when used in proper context is offensive to many. Yes using it (I had to look the word up) as a pejorative, is quite inappropriate. Using the word at a dog show not only as a proper nomenclature, but with appropriate emphases can be quite important. To go walking through a dog show and pointing out each and every bitch there is excessive. The same as standing and pointing at one and yell "A bitch!" These are no better than the pejorative of which you spoke. Extreme examples yes, but effective I believe.

There are some who think the word given to a female canine, was given in bad taste. It is the pejorative usage which has put people thinking it was inappropriately used on the animal. Where if they think back to when it was given to the female canine, a wench was a prostitute and the pejorative was not even a thought. Quite possibly long before that. 

If you dare and choose. I would suggest to look up the origin of the word, figure out how and when it became a pejorative. Write it out as a presentation and with good grace hand it to those who feel it incorrect to use at any time. It is what is within their own thoughts that make it more than a simple word.

Going back to a thread I despise about offensive things. When a person chooses to take things personal, no matter the source, should take on the attitude of, "it is your opinion and it has no bearing on me." In other words, "Do not pick up that fecal matter, garbage, or trash if it is not yours." We would find that we can live a better life. Sadly there will be those whom think a simple opinion of "I am mad at you" will destroy their life. Those people will never get beyond shit is a dirty word. When all it is, is discarded matter, unidentified substance, trash, a pile of limbs or brush, the trash from the bag which split while caring it to the curb.


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## Sam (Mar 16, 2016)

W.Goepner said:


> In context your are turning this thread in the wrong direction. I know how to use the term bitch in many mannerisms. I am asking where it is, in a more popular opinion consensuses, correct to use.
> 
> The way you so grossly disrespected my question with your poor display of garbage mouth... In other words, your comments are out of line thank you.



It was a joke. 

Nothing more, nothing less.


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## W.Goepner (Mar 16, 2016)

EmmaSohan said:


> For me, the word bitch is a name you call a female if you don't like her. I know in my brain that it also means female dog, but it takes me a while to get to that meaning. So I vote for not using bitch.
> 
> Talking to my friend in the UK, it seems that bitch for female dog is more common.
> 
> Laughing, I am happy with the words bitch and ass in writing, I just would never use them to describe animals.



My comfort zone is in the proper setting for the word usage. Like I said The dog world is very familiar to me. Breeding, raising, showing, and the other side of the ring standard as a steward, all have their moments of the word in proper usage. 

Where in my story I have humans changing to dogs, and dogs to humans, to refer to them in dog form as bitches where moments before they were women, kind of rankles or makes me cringe. When the MC was traveling with two or three females, he would be busy away from them, or have a question for them, upon their meeting or his turning to face them I use "the females" or "the #of females."  Here is where My British friend says "call them bitches." It is actually where I had chose not to use their names to save time. 

I can see I need to do a LARGE amount of revising. Which is why I started this thread. Pretty much every one has the same opinion, where it is appropriate use it. I think there is three who say it is a no go because of a conservative feeling. I can understand that. I can even go along with it, BUT I would be selling myself short.


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## bazz cargo (Mar 16, 2016)

Hi Bill,
I thought I would share my 2c.

I suspect a lot of what you are thinking about is contextual. Who is the person speaking? What are they like? Would they be PC or more direct? As I see it, the character of the character drives the style of speech.  

I dunno if that helps or if it adds to your problem. 
Good luck
BC


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## Jack of all trades (Mar 16, 2016)

You can't escape the fact that language changes. So what was once simply a proper term is now an insult or whatever. So if you want to appeal to those younger, you have to accept the change in definition.

Back in Victorian times, there was a slang word for prostitute, that I now forget, that is a perfectly reasonable word in modern times. It lost that meaning. We shouldn't try to use it the old way just because it once had that meaning.


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## Sam (Mar 16, 2016)

Jack of all trades said:


> You can't escape the fact that language changes. So what was once simply a proper term is now an insult or whatever. So if you want to appeal to those younger, you have to accept the change in definition.
> 
> Back in Victorian times, there was a slang word for prostitute, that I now forget, that is a perfectly reasonable word in modern times. It lost that meaning. We shouldn't try to use it the old way just because it once had that meaning.



Bitch is an insult when you use it to mean a contemptuous woman. 

It is not an insult when you use it to mean a female dog. 

Even then, I've used it in the first sense a number of times in writing. There's nothing whatsoever wrong with that, and I'm not going to avoid it because it might make someone feel that they're not being appealed to.


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## dale (Mar 16, 2016)

Sam said:


> Bitch is an insult when you use it to mean a contemptuous woman.
> 
> It is not an insult when you use it to mean a female dog.
> 
> Even then, I've used it in the first sense a number of times in writing. There's nothing whatsoever wrong with that, and I'm not going to avoid it because it might make someone feel that they're not being appealed to.



..................................


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## W.Goepner (Mar 16, 2016)

Hey Dale,

What an honest opinion. Too bad it was not the one I am looking for. You are welcome to write as you see fit in anything of your own. Again simply because I am asking a question about a word some find offensive, does not mean you need to express it in here. I get it! you are frustrated about what you think you are seeing here. And yes you made your point abundantly clear.

NOWHERE did anyone in this thread say YOU have to adhere to, or even be bothered with, what they are saying. They did not throw any of their undesirable junk in your face, so why did you? You are invited to state what you would do as you see fit for your work but please do not try to dump your garbage here. 

So a few people think certain words are harsh and even some think some words should be taken out of the language. It will never happen. They as you, are entitled to an opinion, and yes, you do not agree with it. No I do not like where you took this discussion once again.

You can express your opinion, but I would appreciate if you would revise what you wrote. Of course I know you won't because you think I am censoring and you will rebel at the fact I even thought to ask. So you will prove yours and my point.

I believe in using words in context, I also believe if I am writing a cussing, screaming, yelling word fight. I will use the most colorful words imaginable, because they are what it is all about. I do agree we are getting more and more censored these days. It rankles me to know that even proper context, bitch will more than likely end up on the pile with other words which have been deemed undesirable. 

Now to those of you who have the email alert and got to view my rant from before. I apologize. I did what I do not like, I let the words of another rankle my hide.


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## Jack of all trades (Mar 17, 2016)

This is getting argumentative, so this will be my last post on this thread.

I am not telling anyone how to write. I am not telling anyone to write what's marketable. Now that that's out of the way, Goepner has asked for opinions about what words to use.

Determining the appropriate language for a book starts with deciding who is the target audience.

1. Target is no one, the book is written for self. No need to think about marketability. In that case, don't bother asking for opinions. Write what you want.

2. Target is writingforums. Start a poll and use what the majority select.

3. Target is potential buyers.
Who are they?  Old? Young? Men? Women? Children? Everyone? Based on those answers, you should be able to figure out what language has the potential of sinking your ship, for example, using curses in a picture book.

All three options are valid. Only the author knows what his goal is or should be. I am not telling him to make his book marketable. I am, however, asking him if that's his goal and if it is what market is he aiming for. Anything else that's read into my posts doesn't come from me.


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## W.Goepner (Mar 17, 2016)

Jack of all trades said:


> This is getting argumentative, so this will be my last post on this thread.
> 
> I am not telling anyone how to write. I am not telling anyone to write what's marketable. Now that that's out of the way, Goepner has asked for opinions about what words to use.
> 
> ...



ahem Jack, wink, wink!

If you saw what I post and deleted, You know I became fed up with the comments on how people take things personal. Myself included. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and yes opinions stink from time to time. That is why I say "Do not pick up that trash if it is not yours, and if you do, do not complain if it stinks or gets heavy." One of my biggest gripes is when one person gets upset by another poster saying "we writers" and continued with a statement the first did not agree with. The first did not take into consideration that the "we writers" was a generalization and did not include those who were not of the same mind. So why did they pick up that trash, if it was not theirs to pickup? Because for some reason known to only them they decided to. I can speculate and I can get them riled up even with what I said/wrote here. 

The point is. This thread was started as a sounding board. A place where I can get a general conciseness and draw my own conclusion. A place where I can look back and remind myself there is more to my piece to fix than a simple word or two. 

People, readers alike will put emphasis where they think they should be. They will use emotions where they fit, in their opinion. Even in this thread people get fed up with what they call bull and say stupid stuff trying to express their opinion, and in one case force it with words that display their disgust. That is why my post did not stay for more than a minute. I was disgusted with MY reaction to their mindless use of a vocabulary, which I do not wish to put into this particular story. Now when I decide to continue with my "Anyone Can Fly" piece I might ask them for some more colorful examples of the YA language they choose to use.

Remember my motto, you might be seeing it in my signature soon. 

"Do not pick up that trash if it is not yours, if you do, do not complain if it stinks or gets heavy, you should not have picked it up to begin with."


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## PrinzeCharming (Mar 17, 2016)

bazz cargo said:


> Who is the person speaking? Would they be * PC * or more direct?



Hey! Says the dog. I'm sure you get _bitches_. I can be direct when I want. 

Jokes aside,  my response is kept short and sweet.  Context. I agree with everything mentioned.


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## dale (Mar 17, 2016)

W.Goepner said:


> Hey Dale,
> 
> What an honest opinion. Too bad it was not the one I am looking for. You are welcome to write as you see fit in anything of your own. Again simply because I am asking a question about a word some find offensive, does not mean you need to express it in here. I get it! you are frustrated about what you think you are seeing here. And yes you made your point abundantly clear.
> 
> ...



there ya go. actually, i wasn't frustrated. i was just tip-toeing through the tulips. but anyway, i have no problem
with removing that post. cheers.


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## aj47 (Mar 17, 2016)

Look, Bill, I'm a bitch--*B*eing *I*n *T*otal *C*ontrol *H*ere--and you can be, too.

What is your POV for who is using the word?  Let that guide you.  If the reason for your discomfort is your POV voice is not comfortable with that word, don't use it. 

And if they were *women* in the previous paragraph (we generally don't call people "females") then the reader should be smart enough to remember that in the current paragraph.  

I'm going to up the ante.  Give us a short sample of what you're trying to write.  Either in here or in the Workshop, with a link here.  I'm sure we can do a better job of dealing with an actual chunk of words than with a theoretical hypothetical.


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## PrinzeCharming (Mar 17, 2016)

Let me put this into perspective at a linguistic / cultural angle. 

I took a screen shot for my SO in France to show her how Duolingo instructs people in French. Instead of the male dog, _le chien_, it prompts "_la chienne_" (the female dog). This is essentially the same concept as a language program teaching people the word, "bitch," in English to describe a female dog. Little do they know, if they are not familiar with the cultural aspect, this word has a bad connotation. She freaked out. It's unfortunately the same thing with la chatte as well. A female cat has a bad French connotation describing a woman's vagina.


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## ppsage (Mar 17, 2016)

It's not really censorship when certain groups take a technically useful term and use it as a vulgarity or a pejorative and then people don't want it used anymore when they're trying to be polite and let everybody know that's the case. (Or at least it is only to the ones who want to be rude. Which they couldn't be, if someone didn't object.) Censorship is when the government puts little black squares in your text. ----------- Even among people who know and use the term bitch in its technical sense, the pejorative meaning will come to mind, among many others that meaning will typically be foremost. Whether that association is generally useful in a particular text, considering the effort needed to 'own' it, and considering the fact that its reception will vary quite a bit, is a decision without a precise answer, but I'd say the fact that it's being questioned here by the author is fairly telling.


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## W.Goepner (Mar 17, 2016)

dale said:


> there ya go. actually, i wasn't frustrated. i was just tip-toeing through the tulips. but anyway, i have no problem
> with removing that post. cheers.



It is alright Dale, I need to regard it as an example rather than you being frustrated and voicing a pointed opinion.


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## W.Goepner (Mar 17, 2016)

ppsage said:


> It's not really censorship when certain groups take a technically useful term and use it as a vulgarity or a pejorative and then people don't want it used anymore when they're trying to be polite and let everybody know that's the case. (Or at least it is only to the ones who want to be rude. Which they couldn't be, if someone didn't object.) Censorship is when the government puts little black squares in your text. ----------- Even among people who know and use the term bitch in its technical sense, the pejorative meaning will come to mind, among many others that meaning will typically be foremost. Whether that association is generally useful in a particular text, considering the effort needed to 'own' it, and considering the fact that its reception will vary quite a bit, is a decision without a precise answer, but I'd say the fact that it's being questioned here by the author is fairly telling.



To me bitch used in its commonality in the UK, would work fine if I were targeting the UK readers. I told my UK reader that when or if this makes it that far, he can translate it so it fits the UK culture. He laughed.

The POV essentially is the fly on the wall. I guess then it is my POV, it would be how I want the piece to come off. I am trying for a passive voice with description, adventure, and drama. (probably more drama than I need) 

We shall see, I have not dropped the idea of using bitch but I rather not unless it is clear, Like a scene in a dog park, where the MC is talking to other dog owners.

I think I will do like Astroannie suggested and place examples of where it has been said to use bitch over what I have. But I have gotten some really good advice and many points to ponder. This has opened my eyes to more than this one point and to the fact there are changes needed which have no context to the word. 

Though the piece will not likely ever be below a certain number of words I believe I can cut it by close to a third. But who knows I might end up adding others which would make it no different. 

Thank you everyone. Even you PrinzeCharming. lol


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