# Riley’s been promoted and demoted, all in one night.



## The Backward OX (Oct 26, 2011)

Normally I’d bounce my writing train-wrecks off my other half, but she’s presently doing a Florence Nightingale for her 92-year-old father, 80 miles away.

Last night I needed something sorted with my writing, and emailed this globe-trotting wheeler and dealer I know, hoping he’d have an answer.

He waffled. (I should have known better; he’s done it before)

In desperation, I decided to outline the problem to Riley. For those of you who haven’t met him, Riley’s our not-quite-4yo black and white cat.

Riley stretched, yawned and listened, as I outlined the problem. And, Lo! and behold, we figured it out. I decided he could become my official sounding board for all future writing problems, gave him a pat, and told him what a clever cat he was. 

I scribbled a rewrite of the offending scene, and got ready for bed.

*Crash!

*_That_ was a glazed earthenware soup tureen shattering on the kitchen floor.

Riley had obviously been quite chuffed by his new status, thought the world was his oyster, and had cornered a gecko on a shelf in the kitchen. There is only so much space on a shelf, so something had to give.

And I had to deal with the gecko’s remains before I could put my head down. The image stayed with me and I couldn’t get to sleep.

Damn cat.


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## Nacian (Oct 26, 2011)

lol....indeed!! haha... Riley sounds just cool to  me.
does he get a title too for being such a pationnate and patient feline came cat?
these cats are very rewarding if you know how to reward them back you know.:mrgreen:
do you have a picture of Riley?


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## The Backward OX (Oct 26, 2011)

Where's that interpreter? She's never around when she's needed! Goofing off with the chaffeur again, I suppose.


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## Nacian (Oct 26, 2011)

The Backward OX said:


> Where's that interpreter? She's never around when she's needed! Goofing off with the chaffeur again, I suppose.


can't you read it again..all the words are written in English and you cannot read French.[-(


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## The Backward OX (Oct 26, 2011)

feline came cat, s'il vous plait?


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## Nacian (Oct 26, 2011)

feline means wild and cat referst to domesticated so feline became cat.
there is an expression:
something that becomes something else??


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## Bloggsworth (Oct 26, 2011)

Feline means _cat-like - _We could have a chat about it sometime...


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## The Backward OX (Oct 26, 2011)

Nacian, what are you talking about now? Feline does not mean wild. And cat does not _refer_ to domesticated.


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## Nacian (Oct 26, 2011)

Bloggsworth said:


> Feline means _cat-like - _We could have a chat about it sometime...



we could..but as I did oblige to google this ishow it came up
*''Of or belonging to the family Felidae, which includes the lions, tigers, jaguars, and wild and domestic cats''*; 
I have always understood feline as in wild.


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## Nacian (Oct 26, 2011)

The Backward OX said:


> Nacian, what are you talking about now? Feline does not mean wild. And cat does not _refer_ to domesticated.


Ok
we as human ever since the pharoahs adopted cats.
in the wilderness,when they use to roam free were not refered to as cat.
I thought cat a domesticated name for a feline?


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## Nacian (Oct 26, 2011)

Nacian said:


> we could..but as I did oblige to google this ishow it came up
> *''Of or belonging to the family Felidae, which includes the lions, tigers, jaguars, and wild and domestic cats''*;
> I have always understood feline as in wild.


I did notice wild next to domesticated how can that be?


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## Bloggsworth (Oct 26, 2011)

Nacian said:


> we could..but as I did oblige to google this ishow it came up
> *''Of or belonging to the family Felidae, which includes the lions, tigers, jaguars, and wild and domestic cats''*;
> I have always understood feline as in wild.



*Feral* means wild


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## Nacian (Oct 26, 2011)

Bloggsworth said:


> *Feral* means wild



I thought that Feral meant when a domesticated cat. sways, goes back to the wilderness again non?
oh well..
feline - definition of feline by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.


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## The Backward OX (Oct 26, 2011)

Nacian said:


> in the wilderness,when they use to roam free were not refered to as cat.


Name your source of this information.


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## Gumby (Oct 26, 2011)

> Riley had obviously been quite chuffed by his new status, thought the world was his oyster, and had cornered a gecko on a shelf in the kitchen. There is only so much space on a shelf, so something had to give.



Perhaps the gecko was a critic?


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## Nacian (Oct 26, 2011)

The Backward OX said:


> Name your source of this information.



Ah.
Ok, I'll see what I can do.


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## The Backward OX (Oct 26, 2011)

Nacian said:


> I did notice wild next to domesticated how can that be?



There are wild pigs and domestic pigs, wild cattle and domestic cattle, and wild dogs and domestic dogs, so why shouldn’t there be wild cats and domestic cats?


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## Nacian (Oct 26, 2011)

The Backward OX said:


> There are wild pigs and domestic pigs, wild cattle and domestic cattle, and wild dogs and domestic dogs, so why shouldn’t there be wild cats and domestic cats?


how wild and domesticated be refered to the same and under the same breath?
*wild* is one thing and *domesticated *is another.
two different words.
surely that is obvious.


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## Baron (Oct 26, 2011)

"No. You see children know such a lot now, they soon don't believe in fairies wild cats, and every time a child says, `I don't believe in fairies wild cats,' there is a fairy  wild cat somewhere that falls down dead."


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## Bloggsworth (Oct 26, 2011)

Nacian said:


> how wild and domesticated be refered to the same and under the same breath?
> *wild* is one thing and *domesticated *is another.
> two different words.
> surely that is obvious.



Red and Blue are different, but they are both colours. A cat is a cat, a Persian is not a cat because it is a Persian, nor is a Tabby not a cat because it is a Tabby; wild and domesticated refer to its lifestyle, they are not different breeds of cat.


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## Cran (Oct 26, 2011)

_feline_ is to _cat_ as _ovine_ is to _sheep_; or as _avian_ is to _bird_, etc ...

one thing about the English language - there is always another way to say the same thing.


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## Nacian (Oct 26, 2011)

The Backward OX said:


> Name your source of this information.


cat used to be refered to as Feles before they started being cats.
I am assuming they got that name whne they came into contact with humans, meaning they started having them as pets, to differenciate between wild and domesticated.

_''O.E. catt (c.700), from W.Gmc. (c.400-450), from P.Gmc. *kattuz (cf. O.Fris. katte, O.N. köttr, Du. kat, O.H.G. kazza, Ger. Katze), from L.L. cattus (also the source of Gael. cat, Welsh kath, Bret. kaz, It. gatto, Sp. gato, Fr. chat). The near-universal European word now, it appeared in Europe as L. catta (Martial, c.75 C.E.), Byzantine Gk. katta (c.350) and was in general use on the continent by c.700, *replacing L. feles*. Probably ultimately Afro-Asiatic (cf. Nubian kadis, Berber kadiska, both meaning "cat"). Arabic qitt "tomcat" may be from the same source.

Cats were domestic in Egypt from c.2000 B.C.E., but not a familiar household animal to classical Greeks and Romans. The nine lives have been proverbial since at least 1560s. Extended to lions, tigers, etc. c.1600. As a term of contempt for a woman, from early 13c. Slang sense of "prostitute" is from at least c.1400. Slang sense of "fellow, guy," is from 1920, originally in U.S. Black Eng.; narrower sense of "jazz enthusiast" is recorded from 1931_. ''


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## Cran (Oct 26, 2011)

the L in 





> _*replacing L. feles*._


 means Latin.

in other words, by the 8th Century, the common name for the creature had become a variant of the modern word _cat_;
the Latin form would only have been retained by the educated elite.



> _Cats were domestic in Egypt from c.2000 B.C.E., _


ie, cats were domesticated roughly 2700 years before people commonly called them any variant of "cats"



> _Extended to lions, tigers, etc. c.1600._


ie, at the Dawn of the Age of Reason, when academic exploration learned that the big cats and the little cats were related.


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## Nacian (Oct 26, 2011)

Cran said:


> _feline_ is to _cat_ as _ovine_ is to _sheep_; or as _avian_ is to _bird_, etc ...
> 
> one thing about the English language - there is always another way to say the same thing.



agreed but,
you eat a sheep
you do not quite eat an ovine (or I would hope so)

avian means it *may *refer to a bird.
whereas
a bird is just that.

*avian* reminds me of *avion* French for aeroplane.
so I am thinking avian is latin to indicate that it has wings and flies.


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## Cran (Oct 26, 2011)

Nacian said:


> agreed but,
> *avian* reminds me of *avion* French for aeroplane.
> so I am thinking avian is latin to indicate that it has wings and flies.



What do you think inspired the design and construction of the aeroplane?

aeroplane ... in another form is airplane ... is aircraft ... is plane ... English always has another way to say the same thing.

the point of 





> _feline_ is to _cat_ as _ovine_ is to _sheep_; or as _avian_ is to _bird_, etc ...


 is that the first is considered the proper or scientific form (as adjective or noun) and the second is the common form (as noun). 

Avian extends into flying terms (eg aviation, avionics) because of the connection with with the original inspiration for winged flying machines - birds.

And in common terms, we don't eat sheep either - we eat lamb, hogget or mutton depending on how old the sheep was when slaughtered for meat.


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## The Backward OX (Oct 26, 2011)

Nacian said:


> so I am thinking avian is latin to indicate that it has wings and flies.


Our garbage truck has four wheels and flies.


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## Bloggsworth (Oct 26, 2011)

The Backward OX said:


> Our garbage truck has four wheels and flies.



Our flies have brass bits which interlock when you pull a slider...


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## The Backward OX (Oct 26, 2011)

*cat definition*

Pronunciation: /ˈkat/ Function: _n_, _often attrib_*1**:*a carnivorous mammal (_Felis catus_) long domesticated and kept as a pet or for catching rats and mice*2**:*any of a family (Felidae) of mammals including the domestic cat, lion, tiger, leopard, jaguar, cougar, wildcat, lynx, and cheetah


*Origin: *before 900; Middle English _cat, catte,_Old English _catt_(masculine), _catte_(feminine); cognate with Old Frisian, Middle Dutch _katte,_Old High German _kazza,_Old Norse _kǫttr,_Irish _cat,_Welsh _cath_(Slavic _*kotŭ,_Lithuanian _katė̃_perhaps < Gmc), Late Latin _cattus, catta_(first attested in the 4th century, presumably with the introduction of domestic cats); ultimately origin obscure


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## Nacian (Oct 26, 2011)

The Backward OX said:


> Our garbage truck has four wheels and flies.


has it?
what is it called?


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## Nacian (Oct 26, 2011)

The Backward OX said:


> *cat definition*
> 
> Pronunciation: /ˈkat/ Function: _n_, _often attrib_*1**:*a carnivorous mammal (_Felis catus_) long domesticated and kept as a pet or for catching rats and mice*2**:*any of a family (Felidae) of mammals including the domestic cat, lion, tiger, leopard, jaguar, cougar, wildcat, lynx, and cheetah
> 
> ...



Isn't that what I just said earlier?


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## Nacian (Oct 26, 2011)

Cran said:


> the L in  means Latin.
> 
> in other words, by the 8th Century, the common name for the creature had become a variant of the modern word _cat_;
> the Latin form would only have been retained by the educated elite.
> ...



by modern we also domestication of wild animals?
as a new concept introduced first by Egyptians then taken by modern ideas of having a pet right?


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## The Backward OX (Oct 26, 2011)

Nacian said:


> Isn't that what I just said earlier?


No it isn't. Your post attempted to differentiate between wild cats and domestic cats. My source shows they are just two examples from a larger group all known as cats. Have you never heard for example of "the big cats", used in reference to lions and tigers and so on? Don't they use figures of speech in France? What a thoroughly boring place to live it must be.


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## caelum (Oct 26, 2011)

Don't mind Ox, Nacian.  He loves trying to correct people's wording.  It's his little way of feeling superior, though it must be hard when the other person's first language isn't English.


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## The Backward OX (Oct 26, 2011)

Don't mind Nacian, caelum. She loves trying to correct people's English.


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## Cran (Oct 26, 2011)

Nacian said:


> by modern we also domestication of wild animals?
> as a new concept introduced first by Egyptians then taken by modern ideas of having a pet right?



_[Longer first reply lost due to power interruption] _

Yes, but domestication of wild animals goes back to long before the Egyptians or any major culture; ie, pre-history.
The concept of "having a pet" also goes back to the earliest historical cultures. 

What we are trying to tell you is that the distinction between _cats_ (as the tamed form) and _felines_ (as the wild form) has not existed in the English-speaking world (nor in Europe) for at least 300 (and up to 400) years. Regardless of its _Dark Ages _marketing history, since the _Age of Reason_: felines = cats ... and their personal habits are no longer relevant.


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## Nacian (Oct 27, 2011)

The Backward OX said:


> No it isn't. Your post attempted to differentiate between wild cats and domestic cats. My source shows they are just two examples from a larger group all known as cats. Have you never heard for example of "the big cats", used in reference to lions and tigers and so on? Don't they use figures of speech in France? What a thoroughly boring place to live it must be.


my post was an attempt to differentiate between the word CAT and the word FELINE.
I was trying to see wether the usage of word CAT only came about when humans domesticated FELINES and gave them the name of CAT.
I give up.
no need to be complacent or sarcastic about what France is like.
I cannot help it if you have not travelled and or only speak one language.


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## Bloggsworth (Oct 27, 2011)

Nacian said:


> no need to be complacent or sarcastic about what France is like.



It's more likely to be exasperation Nacian as you will not be told. You are creating arguments with people who have been speaking and writing English for collectively several hundred years, yet still you try and tell us where we are wrong. English has its roots in a multiplicity of languages, and the British, having at one time colonised 1/3 of the world, imported elements of almost every language they came in contact with, and then adopted, adapted and altered to suit its purpose. If you want a language that is logically based, very limited, totally lacking in subtlety of any kind, and therefore as boring as hell, go and find yourself a group who speak and write Esparanto...


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## Nacian (Oct 27, 2011)

Bloggsworth said:


> It's more likely to be exasperation Nacian as you will not be told. You are creating arguments with people who have been speaking and writing English for collectively several hundred years, yet still you try and tell us where we are wrong. English has its roots in a multiplicity of languages, and the British, having at one time colonised 1/3 of the world, imported elements of almost every language they came in contact with, and then adopted, adapted and altered to suit its purpose. If you want a language that is logically based, very limited, totally lacking in subtlety of any kind, and therefore as boring as hell, go and find yourself a group who speak and write Esparanto...


I am astonished and frankly quite amused that a discussion about anyhting canlead to such touchy feely reactions.
let's all have a bit more confidence in ourselves, in what we do say and who we are.
why feel annoyed because I happen to raise something that I take interest in.
the topics I brought were merely to discuss aspects of the language I am using as a mean to express myself.
I cannot help it if I happen to take interest in  various areas of a language I am fond of.
my reaction wouldhave been very welcoming if you have reciprocated my topics and brought say French and wouldf be more than happy to indulge in discussions that concerns us all as adults.
my point in this forum is to epxress ideas and opinions in a manner that is considered intellectually stimulating and enjoyable and I am sorry this is not coming through with my threads.
if you feel that I have been in any way rude or trying to tell anyone what to then I do apologise because that was not my attentions.
the fact that you have for example, pointed out me that I do not take care for my spellings when I write or post has made more aware. 
 I have got something out of it and hopefully will move on for better in an effort to perfect the language I am learning.


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## The Backward OX (Oct 27, 2011)

Nacian said:


> no need to be complacent ..... about what France is like.


Is that what they call a Freudian slip? :-\"


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## Nacian (Oct 27, 2011)

The Backward OX said:


> Is that what they call a Freudian slip? :-\"


not that is what they call a monlingual that has never travelled to France.


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## The Backward OX (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh my Gawd. I give up.


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## BabaYaga (Oct 27, 2011)

A daresay, after reading about Riley and having cats myself, I'm sure he would have been delighted at the kerfuffle that has arisen regarding his species.


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## Bloggsworth (Oct 27, 2011)

Nacian said:


> I am astonished and frankly quite amused that a discussion about anyhting canlead to such touchy feely reactions.
> let's all have a bit more confidence in ourselves, in what we do say and who we are.



You do not want people to say what they really think Nacian, it would get them banned from the forum. You are trying to find a relationship between cat and feline, etymologically there is no relationship, they come from different roots; you have been told this several times yet you still try to join them up as if they come under one code - they don't, accept it and move on.


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## Bloggsworth (Oct 27, 2011)

Nacian said:


> not that is what they call a monlingual that has never travelled to France.




Do you mean *monolingual*?


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## Nacian (Oct 27, 2011)

BabaYaga said:


> A daresay, after reading about Riley and having cats myself, I'm sure he would have been delighted at the kerfuffle that has arisen regarding his species.


I like humour especially at the worst of time...laughter is all there is to itrange:


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## Nacian (Oct 27, 2011)

Bloggsworth said:


> Do you mean *monolingual*?


yes. the O went off somewhere whilst Iwas typing.
thanks forgetting it back to me Bloggsworth:encouragement:


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## The Backward OX (Oct 27, 2011)

Nacian said:


> I like humour especially at the worse of time...laughter is all there is to itrange:


Worse describes the _quantity_ of badness, the amount of badness. The word you want is worst, which describes the _degree_ of badness, the extent to which something is bad.


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## Nacian (Oct 27, 2011)

The Backward OX said:


> Worse describes the _quantity_ of badness, the amount of badness. The word you want is worst, which describes the _degree_ of badness, the extent to which something is bad.



hey thanks OX ..much appreciated.


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## Baron (Oct 27, 2011)

This is not a language discussion board and I don't believe such a discussion was the original intention of the OP.  The hijacking stops here.


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