# Setting up a raid...



## hawky94 (Feb 26, 2014)

Hi all,

I thought I'd pick your brains with my current predicament.

I'm writing a military fiction novel, and I've come across a bit of an issue.

So, let me try to explain the situation in as much detail as possible, in order for you guys to dissect and better assist me!

We have my main character - a former SAS Captain, he's picked up by the Security Services after an operation goes wrong, and while he's still in the SAS at this point - his career is in serious jeopardy and he's facing charges of disobeying a direct order, not following protocol, etc.

Anyway, the deal that he's made with a super-secret, non-existent arm of the British Security Services - called the Covert Operations Group, is this... Help them out on a mission, they get him out of jail and back to where he was before the whole incident... An outstanding officer with a promotion to Major on the horizon, and in general, a bright career ahead of him.

His first operation with the Covert Operations Group is back to Afghanistan to rescue a British journalist being held by the Taliban. Unfortunately, this journalist is also wanted by the CIA - she has some dirt on them and they want to keep her quiet, along with whatever dirt she has. She's a freelancer, and recently stumbled upon a top-secret operation carried out by the Covert Operations Group - a mission into Iran to assassinate a top nuclear scientist.

Her plan is to run with the story and expose the true nature of the Covert Operations Group - a unit that officially doesn't exist. The British want to shut her up, too. But, they cannot allow a British national to be taken by the CIA, and they also want to free her from the clutches of the Taliban.

Anyway, the operation. This is where I'm struggling. Both with the specifics of the operation, and the kit itself - the names of the kit, what everything's called, etc.

I envision it as thus: she is being held in one of three buildings in a compound. The team of four will insert in via helicopter a few kilometres from the target compound. They will then tab the extra few kilometres to an observation post, where they will link up with the four members of the team - who were inserted 72 hours earlier, and acting as intelligence gatherers, relaying their findings to a FOB. Where the four members will reside until orders are given to commence the operation.




In terms of the terrain, I'm planning on having two snipers on over-watch, so perhaps the compound is surrounded by hills?

The compound itself is well-fortified, and is rectangular in shape. It has four PKM machine gun nests, as well as buildings which exceed the height of the walls to act as look out spots.

The eight man team is outfitted with:

8 x M4 assault rifles - equipped with a torch, night-vision-scope.
8 x USP pistols
1 x M67 fragmentation grenades - per man.
2 x M84 flashbang grenades - per man.
C4 explosive - to make explosive entry into the compound initially.

Support:

- The eight-man team can call upon British Special Forces elements located in the area at any time, should they need assistance. And, one Apache attack helicopter will also be on standby, although this is a last resort.

My main question is with regards to the actual clothing that the soldiers will wear, the weaponry is non-British Army issue to avoid any link back to the UK, or it's Armed Forces. COG don't want a "Can Open. Worms, Everywhere." scenario. What do you guys' think of the plan overall, any flaws?

Do you guys have any other suggestions? Questions?

Many thanks!


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## Morkonan (Feb 26, 2014)

I see no crewed weapons, like a heavy machine gun, should supporting an assault or retreat be necessary. (Though, I don't know what the SAS/Spcl Forces would use, there.) You may want to consider a long-range, suppressive fire weapon like that. 

But, this thread is probably best posted in the "Research" forum, found here: http://www.writingforums.com/forums/32-Research


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## hawky94 (Feb 26, 2014)

Morkonan said:


> I see no crewed weapons, like a heavy machine gun, should supporting an assault or retreat be necessary. (Though, I don't know what the SAS/Spcl Forces would use, there.) You may want to consider a long-range, suppressive fire weapon like that.
> 
> But, this thread is probably best posted in the "Research" forum, found here: http://www.writingforums.com/forums/32-Research



You're right, I hadn't thought of that element of it. Throw in an FN MAG or M249 SAW into the mix to spice it up a little. 

In terms of weapons on the helicopters - unless I'm mistaken, that's what you mean by "crewed" weapons? The SAS helicopter is a Eurocopter Dauphin II... If we're to use that helo, then there is no gunner on the doors. Usually, when the Regiment goes into battle, they're supported by an Apache attack helicopter for offensive action and providing air cover while the troops land.

In terms of COG's insertion... They'll be dropped in using a relatively quiet helicopter... I haven't worked that out yet. It has to be something large enough to carry four men, but not so large and loud as to attract attention, as surprise is a key element here.


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## Morkonan (Feb 26, 2014)

hawky94 said:


> ....In terms of weapons on the helicopters - unless I'm mistaken, that's what you mean by "crewed" weapons? ...



A "Crew Served Weapon" is any weapon, though an Infantry Weapon in this case, that is served by more than one soldier. So, for instance, an M-60 is considered a CSW. However, it can, in a pinch, be served by just one soldier, as any number of fictional movies would attest to.  



> ...They'll be dropped in using a relatively quiet helicopter... I haven't worked that out yet. It has to be something large enough to carry four men, but not so large and loud as to attract attention, as surprise is a key element here.



US Special Forces use specially designed muffled helicopters. For instance, the one in the raid into Pakistan against Osama.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_noise_reduction

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forum...r-involved-in-the-Osama-Bin-Laden-raid/page11 (A nice forum post on the subject.)

Sample Regiment - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/160th_Special_Operations_Aviation_Regiment_(Airborne)

Black Hawk Variants - http://www.americanspecialops.com/night-stalkers/helicopters/mh-60.php

Night Stalkers OOB - http://www.americanspecialops.com/night-stalkers/

Pay particular attention to operational range and the likelihood of forward/mobile bases from which to deploy. Refueling is possible, btw.


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## hawky94 (Feb 26, 2014)

Morkonan said:


> US Special Forces use specially designed muffled helicopters. For instance, the one in the raid into Pakistan against Osama.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_noise_reduction
> 
> ...



Thanks for those links will check those out. I'm sure I could write it so that the SAS has "commandeered" one from the Americans.

I was planning on having the team split in to two teams. The first team would deploy 48-72 hours ahead of the second team of six men, in order to conduct close-target reconnaissance. Relaying information back to the FOB for the second team to onboard and continue planning the operation until the "Go Orders" are given.

The entire team of eight would then insert a few kilometres away from the target area, with the two of the reconnaissance patrol providing over-watch and a sniper capability, as well as co-ordination between the team and air assets/support units.


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## Xander416 (Feb 27, 2014)

If you want to go clandestine and not lead back to the UK, I would arm them with weapons that can be found locally. The venerable AK-47 is most popular because it's easy to use, never overheats, and rarely ever jams. The M4 wouldn't be a good choice since the SAS' regular long gun is the C8SFW, which is basically an M4 with a slightly longer barrel of different profile.

As far as clothing goes, dress them like everyone else in Afghanistan. It certainly works for the US Army's 5th Special Forces Group.


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## hawky94 (Feb 27, 2014)

Xander416 said:


> If you want to go clandestine and not lead back to the UK, I would arm them with weapons that can be found locally. The venerable AK-47 is most popular because it's easy to use, never overheats, and rarely ever jams. The M4 wouldn't be a good choice since the SAS' regular long gun is the C8SFW, which is basically an M4 with a slightly longer barrel of different profile.
> 
> As far as clothing goes, dress them like everyone else in Afghanistan. It certainly works for the US Army's 5th Special Forces Group.



Hi Xander,

Thanks for your input and suggestions! 

Hadn't thought of the AK, either.


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## Jake Creamer (Mar 6, 2014)

I think that unless you are going to orient your story to the geardo's, you'll be fine giving the special operations forces whatever weapons systems they want. The M4 platform is ubiquitous, and doesn't indicate nationality any more than an ak-47 does. Any deviations from the standard could be chalked up to "shooter preference" which is something that special operations forces have that regular soldiers do not. 

The Afghan villages in the area where I was, are made of mud. Generally, every home has a wall around it, and the villages themselves have roads that are too small for vehicle traffic. In some cases, our MATV's would drive by, and walls would crumble. The villages can be very compact, and almost seem stacked up on themselves sometimes. If you like, I can email you some photos of what the villages look like. 

Here's a real life tip for you. My soldiers and I would perform missions at night to attempt to kill or capture people laying IED's. The dogs in Afghanistan (sage koochie) are *big* and can be mean as hell. What we'd do is roll up about 5 kilometers out, and then our foot patrol would get dropped off while the rest of the vehicular patrol would continue on. This kept the audible sound of the patrol consistent, and helped mask our approach. When we got close, we'd pick a hide site and start using our IR lasers on the dogs eyes. The dogs wouldn't be able to see the laser, but their eyes were definitely affected negatively, and they'd run off without barking like crazy and alerting everyone in the village. It's not nice, but it works. 

Concerning the actual tactical situation in the village, keep a few things in mind. Even in heavy Taliban supporting villages, most of the people there are not going to pull triggers. 

Speed, surprise, and violence of action can multiply the effectiveness of your small force tremendously. 

Your sniper team is likely the one that would sneak in and provide your recon. They'd be in a place where they had a good view, but that didn't automatically pop out to anyone with sense that it would be a great place for a hide. 

Consider that you'd have some sort of close air support or an air weapons team available too...Once your operation gets going, if mad hordes of enemies start running in, you'll want those birds as backup. 

In my team (and we were not special operations forces, just regular big army cavalry scouts) I had two infantry mortar men with a 60mm mortar and their M4's. I had a FST'er carrying my radio (he had an m4), I had one of my scouts with a 240L medium machine gun, one with an m4 with a grenade launcher, a medic with an M4 and myself with an m14EBR. We had plenty of load out to engage enemies effectively from 1.5 kilometers all the way back to face to face. 

For a raid, our standard procedure was to have both an inner and outer cordon around whatever our objective was. The outer cordon would get set first, weapons facing out (to keep people out of our operation), and then when set, the inner cordon team would move inside that and set their cordon weapons facing in, (for security). Once both cordons are set, the assault team would move up to the objective, and they would breach and clear the objective. If it can be done quietly, that is best. Once shooting starts though, everything needs to "go loud", because the speed and overwhelming violence are all you have left as an advantage. 

I know it's been a little while on this topic, so hopefully I'm not flogging a dead horse. If you'd like anything else, put a PM my way.


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## Xander416 (Mar 10, 2014)

Jake Creamer said:


> The M4 platform is ubiquitous, and doesn't indicate nationality any more than an ak-47 does.


The reason I suggested AKs was because, unlike the M4, they're used by pretty much everyone on every side of A-Stan in some capacity, AFAIK, in addition to being readily available within the country itself. Pak SF uses M4s, true (or at least they did last I knew), but they're the only ones in the region that I'm aware do so. So in that respect, I would think the use of M4s would be more telling of outside "interference".

Utmost respect and gratitude for your service, sir.


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## Carlos Danger (Mar 10, 2014)

Your gear choices lack character. You picked the most generic rifles and pistols around. Throw some weird stuff in there - Colt Python? M32 grenade launcher? M202 napalm launcher? Winchester repeating rifles? If you're not taking this super-seriously, guns like these might add some flavor to your story.

Otherwise go with spec-ops favorites like the G36 or C8, or alternatively common insurgent weapons like the AK-74 or G3.


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## dvspec (Apr 5, 2014)

*Not weapons, but motivations.*

I am doing research for my own book which is an America invaded story and came across this post.  Thanks to the people who responded, you helped me, too.  

I won't speak to the weapons, because they are not my deal, but your motivations to get the journalist seem to be off.  To me SAS would have enough reason to get her because she is a British citizen.  If they needed more, the fact that she has dirt on them would make them even more likely to do so.  The fact that she has dirt on the CIA is just a bonus and beside the point.  

I don't know your story, but in relation to the air support, GB and USA are playmates they would probably share some toys.   

Just my two cents.


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