# Elves in Fantasy: Staple or Cliche?



## Man From Mars (Dec 6, 2012)

I wrote a fantasy novel a few years ago and set it aside to work on other things. Recently, I've decided to go back and edit it, but I'm now wondering if having elves in the story is appropriate, as opposed to making up my own race. Right now, I'm currently undecided on the issue. I can see how on one hand using elves and relying on past tropes may be lazy from a writing standpoint, and that rejecting the trope could be a fulfilling exercise in creating my own race of humanoids. On the other hand, elves are easily recognized and (as far as I know) still generally appealing. Why change what isn't broken (if it truly isn't broken).

So what do you all think? Are elves a staple of fantasy or a cliche?


----------



## alanmt (Dec 6, 2012)

They are polarizing - being deeply loved by many and just as deeply despised by others.  There is a Tolkienesque fanboy desire to create them as an above-human race, a kind of Mary-Sue race of immortal wisdom and beauty and magical and fighting prowess that no one else has been able to pull off and is just tedious and insipid. (Although, as an aside, I would say that people's interest in tolkienesque elves and vampires stems from the same underlying desires)  On the other hand, as revised into a relatively equal race of strengths and weaknesses in the gamer world which has engendered its own serial fiction, they are more interesting.

Since one of my current projects revolves around a bunch of elves, I may not be wholly objective. I do think the elf-style high fantasy is in a market ebb at the moment, but that si just a feeling.


----------



## sunaynaprasad (Dec 6, 2012)

Elves are, sadly, a cliche. But if you can put a unique twist on their culture or lifestyles, maybe it won't be so bad. I have wizards (also cliched) in my novel, but their culture is very different than the ones in other books. You could decide not to call them elves.


----------



## Jagunco (Dec 6, 2012)

Depends how you do it I suppose. If you have elves like every other steryotypical elf in ever cheap fantasy book that's come out then probably not a good thing, but if you try put a personal twist make them fresh then they'd benefit from it a lot I feel.


----------



## Leyline (Dec 6, 2012)

One of my recent stories opens with the first line:

"Most of the elves were dead, thank God."

Heh.


----------



## Cornelius Crowe (Dec 6, 2012)

It depends on the subgenre of fantasy that you're writing.  Elves are completely out of place in sword & sorcery (i.e. "low fantasy"), but are more common in heroic fantasy ("high fantasy").  I rarely see fantasy stories with elves (or dwarfs, or orcs) that are anything more than a Tolkien knock-off or a fictional rendition someone's Dungeons & Dragons game.  It doesn't need to be so; stories that draw upon mythology (as Tolkien did) for their elves (e.g. Tuatha de Danann) appeal to me, but the vast majority of fantasy stories are just copies of copies and don't draw directly from the source mythology.  Thus they've become a worn-out cliche in heroic fantasy literature.

If you want non-humans in your story, why not create your own race?  Or, at least, do something original with elves instead of making them tranquil, forest dwellers who are good with bows.


----------



## Leyline (Dec 6, 2012)

Actually, the place where elves appear most often these days isn't heroic or high fantasy, but paranormal romance novels. Heroic and high fantasy is basically a very small niche market.


----------



## Jeko (Dec 6, 2012)

Make them all hairy with mushrooms growing out of their eyes. Call them elves, and when people say 'They're not elves!' you can laugh and explain to them that elves don't actually exist.


----------



## Glass Pencil (Dec 6, 2012)

Plurality of races in fantasy is cliched at this point, elves, dwarves, goblins, the lot!

Its really lazy writing to just import pre-established racial paradigms into your fiction wholesale, its slightly less lazy to just invent a bunch of implausible sentient races to populate your fantasy world.


----------



## Kyle R (Dec 6, 2012)

Personally, I try to avoid already established characters in favor of creating my own. But!--if I were to use Elves, I would prefer to do so in a way that completely revamps them, including my own folklore and legend for their origin as a species.

I would use the same approach with Werewolves or Vampires or whatnot--I'd strive to not just "use them" because they are familiar, but to _reinvent_ them so they are something new and unique, or, at the very least, memorable.

The goal would be that when people hear the term "Elves", they no longer think of Tolkien's books--but yours.


----------



## Lewdog (Dec 7, 2012)

Man From Mars said:


> I wrote a fantasy novel a few years ago and set it aside to work on other things. Recently, I've decided to go back and edit it, but I'm now wondering if having elves in the story is appropriate, as opposed to making up my own race. Right now, I'm currently undecided on the issue. I can see how on one hand using elves and relying on past tropes may be lazy from a writing standpoint, and that rejecting the trope could be a fulfilling exercise in creating my own race of humanoids. On the other hand, elves are easily recognized and (as far as I know) still generally appealing. Why change what isn't broken (if it truly isn't broken).
> 
> So what do you all think? Are elves a staple of fantasy or a cliche?




This is an important question, what kind of elves are they?  Are the Night elves, Blood Elves, Santa's elves, Keebler elves, Underwear elves, or any other elven race?  Once you have that question answered, then you have to move on to what kind of clothes they wear.  Are they skimpy, woodly, or North Pole like outfits, because once again that is also important.  Where and what type of story is it?  These are just some things I would need answered before I can understand and give an answer to your proposed question.  There might be more...


----------



## Staff Deployment (Dec 7, 2012)

Stories should be about humans.
Elves and dwarfs are humans with a few features blown out of proportion.

There is no inherent issue with them, but you have to ask yourself why you're including them. If the answer is similar to "because it's fantasy," then clearly you do not understand the very fundamental values of fantasy: breaking the boundaries of what we can imagine.

If the answer is similar to "because the story explores themes of the integration of society and the natural world" then elves are probably a good choice. Otherwise... Why? What's the point?


----------



## Man From Mars (Dec 7, 2012)

What kind of elves are they...

Now when I first wrote the story, which was back in 2009 I believe, the elves were more traditional. They liked forests and nature, were slender, had somewhat feminine features with long, braided hair. The way I see them now, and the way I want them, is that they are an example of what humans could have been if we evolved differently. They're still skinny rather than muscular, agile rather than strong, but their purpose is to serve as a cultural contrast to human society in my story, which has just gone post-industrial. Their skin and hair aren't really important aspects of the story, so essentially I can replace them and name the "elves" something else. However they must be human-like to a degree.

For example, I have already done so with other races in my story. When I first wrote it, it was pretty generic. Humans, elves, orcs and dwarfs. Now that I've come back to the story after however many years, I've changed orcs and dwarfs to new races with different features while still keeping the general archetype intact. I could do that with the elves if I pleased. However in my mind, I still see them as elves.


----------



## Staff Deployment (Dec 7, 2012)

Man From Mars said:


> ... new races with different features while still keeping the general archetype intact.



No, see, the archetype is what you have to destroy. You have to throttle that archetype, shove it to the ground and mash your words in its face until it morphs beneath you into a gelatinous blob of imagination, then shape that blob into something nobody has ever experienced before. Then you make sweet love to that blob.

For instance, what about animals - animals that have become intelligent to the point that they start abandoning their natural inclinations and start forming societies out in the mountains, and then eventually in the mainland? What if, when these animals start acting human at the same time humans start to become more monstrous, we start to lose control of what defines us as human in the first place? Dwarves can't do that. Elves kind of do the opposite.

The point is, the fantasy genre by definition should be expanding its own boundaries.


----------



## Burlesk (Dec 7, 2012)

Staff Deployment said:


> No, see, the archetype is what you have to destroy. You have to throttle that archetype, shove it to the ground and mash your words in its face until it morphs beneath you into a gelatinous blob of imagination, then shape that blob into something nobody has ever experienced before. Then you make sweet love to that blob.



This would be my recommendation too.

But without the kinky blob-sex.


----------



## Lewdog (Dec 7, 2012)

The point I was trying to make in my first post, is that various parts of society has taken the idea of an elf and molded it into something that is distinct to their ideas.  World of Warcraft for example had Dark Elves that have a bluish tint of skin and are on the Alliance faction meaning they are 'good.'  On the other hand, they have Blood Elves with have an orangish type of skin that people are familiar with but are on the Horde faction that is presumed as the 'bad' guys.  They both of similar customizable traits including slender bodies and long pointy ears.

So what kind of elf do you want to create?  Simply use the common traits as a "Potato Head" structure to build upon.  Feel to take certain freedoms that make sense, and name them accordingly.  You could ever create your own Elven name, like the "Woodwind elves," cheesy but you get the point.  I hope this helps.

Feel free to come up with a new name for blob sex as well, it is a bit disturbing.


----------



## Staff Deployment (Dec 8, 2012)

A woodwind is a type of musical instrument, usually requiring a replaceable reed to play, e.g. an Oboe.

You shouldn't play Mr. Potato Head with the elves, because all you're doing is changing their general appearance. You're not changing what they _are_.

What if your elves are a strain of bacteria that changes the primary sensory organ of a human? People who ignore their sight in the same way that we ignore smells, or their hearing or touch. It would make for a very strange book to write. A fantasy, you might even say.


----------



## Morkonan (Dec 10, 2012)

Man From Mars said:


> ...So what do you all think? Are elves a staple of fantasy or a cliche?



Vampire elveses with tricksy bolos riding dinosaurs.. yes, my precious, that's what they are...

In other words, if you have to have "elves" in there, for the sake of fantasy readers everywhere, make them different. I've read about elves with a taste for human flesh, aboriginal elves, hobo elves, subterranean elves, stupid elves, smart elves, zombie elves, elves with ray guns... Those are entertaining! However, the most godawful boring elves are the generic ones. For some damn reason, some fantasy authors think all they have to do is insert an elf, sprinkle pixie-dust on it and the story is automatically an epic fantasy. DON'T DO THAT!

If you must and if you just simply can't avoid making a race of elves that live in forests in giant trees or huge fantasy castles, please do something different with them. Make the evil, make them completely incompetent with a bow and make them scared of rocks or break out in hives any time anyone say's the word "ocean." Give them purple skin and stripped mohawks and give them terrible in-laws who constantly bicker about who's going to pick up the tab at McDonald's or something. But, please, just don't make them generic elves.

Unless you're going to murder them all, brutally, by having them thrown into a massive wood-chipper or something, that is. Then, be sure to give them all names with too many vowels, heads full of blonde hair, fair complexions and an overbearing self-righteous attitude coupled with terminal racial angst. I wonder what all those elves are compensating for with their tall towers and giant trees and such... Bah! Who cares? Throw 'em in the wood chipper!


----------



## Tears_like_Rain (Dec 12, 2012)

I like elves. I write about elves. If a story with elves in it is stupid and insipid, it's probably not the fault of the elves. It's probably just not a well-written story, with or without elves.  An excellently written story, even with traditional type elves, is still going to be a good read.

Some people are just never going to like elves, and it's probably useless to try to write a story with elves that will please them.


----------



## Morkonan (Dec 12, 2012)

Tears_like_Rain said:


> I like elves. I write about elves. If a story with elves in it is stupid and insipid, it's probably not the fault of the elves. It's probably just not a well-written story, with or without elves.  An excellently written story, even with traditional type elves, is still going to be a good read.
> 
> Some people are just never going to like elves, and it's probably useless to try to write a story with elves that will please them.



You know that elves aren't real, right? 



I get what you're saying. But, I think that there's a certain amount of "overdoneness" with elves. Sure, they're cool an' all... But, they're not a necessary ingredient for a good fantasy story. As you say, a good story will carry the day, no matter if there are elves in it or not. But, there's so much history in the current pop-lexicon regarding elves that, IMO, they need a rest. If they're going to be used, they just have to be different... Otherwise, there's a heck of a lot race/character building that the writer is going to have to do in order to put their own unique twist on it.

However, a story entirely about elves _would_ be unique. (Certain companion/spinoff books, excepted.) Even so, some extra effort might still be warranted in order to retool the elves for the author's purpose. Just my two coppers on the use of "elves." ("Elf-like" creatures, included. Though, certain forms of "fairies" are still entirely viable as the classic Tolkienesque elves were never associated with fairies.)

Disclaimer - I don't hate elves. I don't especially like them, but I don't hate them... I wouldn't deny them their rights, just so long as they stayed on their side of the river.


----------



## GonneLights (Dec 12, 2012)

There is nothing any less arbitrary about not including Elves in High Fantasy for the sake of not doing what is usual than there is in including Elves in High Fantasy for the she of doing what is usual. The problem with Elf-centtric literature is not that it doesn't deviate from the fleet-footed archer depiction of Elves, but that it's often tediously boring. If it was gloriously entrancing and featured heavily fleet-footed archer Elves, no one would have the slightest concern about it, other than the super-Macho anti-traditionalists, as observed. 

The only point worth considering on the way of writing elves is this; imagine a black man watching 70s Blaxploitation films. Although he might appreciate the humour of it, he won't enjoy it for it's scrip in any artistic sense, because he'll want to stress that there's _more to black men _than loud suits and cocaine and drive-by shootings. Similarly, an Elf reading most works of Fantasy will be immediately be confronted with the racial profiling of: archery, adventure, lavish architecture, nature symposium, etc. He'd want to express that there are more to elves than just running through woods. 

OR. Depict them highly mythologically. I am very inspired by the way people encountered fairies as foreign laughter and little else, and when they met them face to face they always danced and sang and were mischievous. In mythology, other races are depicted as having only one aspect intentionally, because they represent some part of nature or some supernatural phenomena. This takes on a gliding, fairy-tale quality, and is highly different in character to the realism of the above.

Those are two angles to attack the work with - find similar angles. But I really see no reason to arbitrarily not use elves for the sake of not using elves. They're there to be used.


----------



## Staff Deployment (Dec 12, 2012)

KarKingJack said:


> Those are two angles to attack the work with - find similar angles. But I really see no reason to arbitrarily not use elves for the sake of not using elves. They're there to be used.



Well it's like avoiding the use of any other Fantasy staple. You don't have to have a reason not to include them. In fact if it doesn't suit your story you _should not use them_, just like you shouldn't add dwarves into your story about Sky Pirates.

The contention that it's just as bad to leave them out seems more along the lines of justification than anything else.


----------



## Lewdog (Dec 12, 2012)

Staff Deployment said:


> Well it's like avoiding the use of any other Fantasy staple. You don't have to have a reason not to include them. In fact if it doesn't suit your story you _should not use them_, just like you shouldn't add dwarves into your story about Sky Pirates.
> 
> The contention that it's just as bad to leave them out seems more along the lines of justification than anything else.



You obviously don't play or know much about World of Warcraft.  Dwarfs man flying ships.  True story.  The captain is Bran Bronzebeard.


----------



## Glass Pencil (Dec 12, 2012)

Wouldn't dwarfs _dwarf_ flying ships?

Although given the chance to impose some cultural colloquialism as a universal verb they'd probably beard flying ships. 

"Quickly beards! To the wall! The enemy is coming, its every beard for himself!"

Now that I think about it, why would dwarfs call themselves dwarfs? Wouldn't that just piss them off? If I were a dwarf (in addition to having the most magnificent beard in all the land) I'd probably be a little pissed off that none of the other races had the good sense to be shorter. 

Wouldn't it be more apropos to refer to one's self as whatever your race calls itself and to everyone else as "tallies?"


----------



## Staff Deployment (Dec 12, 2012)

Lewdog said:


> You obviously don't play or know much about World of Warcraft.  Dwarfs man flying ships.  True story.  The captain is Bran Bronzebeard.



WHOOOOOOOSH and a spectacular missed catch by the outfielder! The batsman rounds the bases! Home run!
I'm the batsman by the way.

All the fans who cheer from the front row seats represent _my tears_.

Anyway the idea is that when you write a story, you have to make a decision on what to include, not on what not to include, especially if it's unsuitable.


----------



## Lewdog (Dec 12, 2012)

Staff Deployment said:


> WHOOOOOOOSH and a spectacular missed catch by the outfielder! The batsman rounds the bases! Home run!
> I'm the batsman by the way.
> 
> All the fans who cheer from the front row seats represent _my tears_.
> ...



If you have to explain who you are, then it was probably not a homerun.


----------



## Glass Pencil (Dec 12, 2012)

A good story is a good story whether its characters are elves, used car salesmen or anthropomorphic blood hounds. That much is true I suppose.

Its also true that many poor writers use easily recognizable tropes in an attempt to approximate an interesting story. So really the question boils down to "are you a good writer?"

If you are then you'll probably be fine using elves in your stories, the value of which will be dependent on the manner in which you use them. If you aren't then it really won't matter how big the ears of your protagonist are, or how lithely they travel through the evergreen environs of their wooded homeland for that matter.


----------



## Lewdog (Dec 12, 2012)

Glass Pencil said:


> A good story is a good story whether its characters are elves, used car salesmen or anthropomorphic blood hounds. That much is true I suppose.
> 
> Its also true that many poor writers use easily recognizable tropes in an attempt to approximate an interesting story. So really the question boils down to "are you a good writer?"
> 
> If you are then you'll probably be fine using elves in your stories, the value of which will be dependent on the manner in which you use them. If you aren't then it really won't matter how big the ears of your protagonist are, or how lithely they travel through the evergreen environs of their wooded homeland for that matter.



...or just make the elves invisible so that you never have to describe what kind of elf they are and how they look.


----------



## Staff Deployment (Dec 12, 2012)

Lewdog said:


> ...or just make the elves invisible so that you never have to describe what kind of elf they are and how they look.



Invisible elves. Always out of the light, always incapable of interacting with the world with the ease of humans. Truly a tragic species, yearning for the contact and acceptance they are doomed to never obtain.

How would they choose a mate? Would they determine it based on smell, or the clarity of voice? Would singing be given higher value than physical 'appearance?' This would open up possibilities of a star-crossed love story. A human girl, conventionally unattractive but with the most beautiful singing voice in the world, and the elf that falls in love with her. And how about they're both lesbians.


----------



## Glass Pencil (Dec 12, 2012)

...and then Shelo'Agris, defender of the woodland realm of Hasolas drew her mighty bow in defiance of the dark hordes which rampaged throughout the land. Her arrows struck true and strong with an audible twang as they pierced the unclean flesh of the oncoming marauders. Her silken hair as moonlight over a still pond glittered magnificently in the undulating flame of the beastmen's campfire. Her sinuous prowess a sight of unearthly beauty and deadly efficacy. 

Some of the beast things froze in awe at the spectacle of Shelo, they were scythed down by her unerring volleys. The bravest of the creatures charged headlong into an avalanche of feather-fletched death, the smartest dove desperately for any cover they could find. The slaughter was complete within minutes; the only evidence of the carnage a stern frown on Shelo's grim lips, a single wrinkle marring her otherwise pristine skin. 

lolol can't write anymore, too stupid ha ha ha


----------



## Lewdog (Dec 12, 2012)

Staff Deployment said:


> Invisible elves. Always out of the light, always incapable of interacting with the world with the ease of humans. Truly a tragic species, yearning for the contact and acceptance they are doomed to never obtain.
> 
> How would they choose a mate? Would they determine it based on smell, or the clarity of voice? Would singing be given higher value than physical 'appearance?' This would open up possibilities of a star-crossed love story. A human girl, conventionally unattractive but with the most beautiful singing voice in the world, and the elf that falls in love with her. And how about they're both lesbians.




...well maybe they aren't invisible, but instead part of a separate dimension parallel to the one of the protagonist?  One of the elves falls in love with the protagonist and despite all the signs they try to make, they are unable to do anything but watch the protagonist to die?  It would be a modern sci-fi version of the movie "Ghost" starring Demi Moore and Patrick Swayze.


Oh man this just gave me an unreal idea!  How about making a book, full of short stories using plots from famous movies, with sci-fi characters as the main characters and subtle changes so that it all comes together?  This could be collaborated easily between a group of people because the short stories don't tie in to each other.


----------



## Morkonan (Dec 12, 2012)

Lewdog said:


> Oh man this just gave me an unreal idea!  How about making a book, full of short stories using plots from famous movies, with sci-fi characters as the main characters and subtle changes so that it all comes together?



"Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan" was "Moby Dick" in space. "Pretty Woman" was "Cinderella," without all the blood. It's not unusual at all to see stories retold in a different setting. It's done in almost every movie and book. As the old saying goes "Everything has already been written."


----------



## Lewdog (Dec 12, 2012)

Morkonan said:


> "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan" was "Moby Dick" in space. "Pretty Woman" was "Cinderella," without all the blood. It's not unusual at all to see stories retold in a different setting. It's done in almost every movie and book. As the old saying goes "Everything has already been written."




Oh I have come up with ideas in my life time that are exciting and new.  It takes more effort, but alas it can be done.  I can't say I have seen a sci-fi book written using this idea.

*"Moby Dick" in space* - Like a hot dog thrown down a hallway?

:beguiled:


----------

