# Political Themes In Novels



## luckyscars (Aug 23, 2018)

***UPFRONT: Please read forum rules! Despite the title, this thread is *not* about discussing the specifics of politics whatsoever and most especially not the relative merits or shortcomings of any one political persuasion. Please don't go there.***

A few weeks ago agreed to help an acquaintance with formatting and proof reading a screenplay they had completed and were hoping to get made. Not knowing about the work upfront (or frankly much about its creator) I asked the old "What's it about?" question. He gave me the usual spiel. It sounded okay, I suppose. Pretty convoluted and nothing particularly that I can even recall with any great accuracy now. And then he finished with something like this:

"...It's basically supposed to teach kids who don't read about the teachings of Ayn Rand."

I don't really know Ayn Rand and am mostly not all that interested in That Sort Of Thing, but this did get me thinking about what place, if any, political ideas have in books in 2018. I suppose I am rather conflicted about it.  I don't like the idea of writers avoiding engaging with important political/social/cultural/religious ideas and find writers who dismiss such topics as being irrelevant to them almost as tiresome as writers who obsess over them. On the other hand, I can probably count on one hand the number of politically themed books that I have actually enjoyed reading and do really hate books driven by ideas at the expense of solid character development, story, etc. I also tend to believe the industry isn't going to go nuts over a thinly veiled Ayn Rand treatise anytime soon, and suspect that books by unknown authors that believe themselves to be philosophically important probably get fast tracked to the waste paper basket.

What are your thoughts? Has anybody perhaps published a political novel? If so, what sort of reaction did it get?


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## Squalid Glass (Aug 24, 2018)

Depends on how you define political. To some, everything is political. I’m working on a quasi-allegorical political novel (incidentally a response to Rand’s _Anthem_), and I don’t consider myself philosophically important or overly enlightened. I think, though, that good fiction can touch on anything, especially politics, if it is genuine and thoughtful and not too overt. Personally, I prefer to work in the speculative genre as opposed to realism, and I like my political literature to deal more with the ideologies of political positions as opposed to the politics, but I’m sure there’s a healthy audience out there looking for work more closely grounded in reality, focusing on scandal and conspiracy, sex, and lies.


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## IsaactheGremlin (Aug 24, 2018)

Do you enjoy Frank Herbert's Dune? I ask because I may need to talk about Politics in Science Fiction, ya' know?


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## luckyscars (Aug 24, 2018)

Squalid Glass said:


> Depends on how you define political. To some, everything is political. I’m working on a quasi-allegorical political novel (incidentally a response to Rand’s _Anthem_), and I don’t consider myself philosophically important or overly enlightened. I think, though, that good fiction can touch on anything, especially politics, if it is genuine and thoughtful and not too overt. Personally, I prefer to work in the speculative genre as opposed to realism, and I like my political literature to deal more with the ideologies of political positions as opposed to the politics, but I’m sure there’s a healthy audience out there looking for work more closely grounded in reality, focusing on scandal and conspiracy, sex, and lies.



I think you're correct. I also think, on balance, there is an important difference between politically aware and politically charged. 

From what I am aware of Rand's novels they are essentially fables to support her political view. Some people like them, a lot do not. The people who like Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead, etc by and large agree with the philosophy and everybody else thinks they are worthless. For me, that is an example of the kind of writing to be avoided. Besides the fact it all too often descends into a polemic it's just not what I believe most publishers, and most readers for that matter are looking for. 

Politically aware writing can often be extremely powerful, especially in speculative fiction. Orwell's 1984 is goofy dystopia blather until it is put into the context of the real world. There is an entire subgenre of allegorical fantasy, into which Tolkien is often placed. Tolkien's work isn't _really _political of course, but the fact readers try to place it in that way proves how important politics and other real world issues are to many readers' enjoyment.

Needless to say I doubt the gentleman who I helped with his play will achieve what he dreams, should he decide to pursue the angle of "educating the masses". Most readers don't want to be educated. Not in that way, least of all by Joe Schmoe. I also think it's a good idea to avoid polarizing figures like Ayn Rand when trying to sell work. Of course I might very well be wrong, which is why I opened the discussion!


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## Squalid Glass (Aug 24, 2018)

Yeah, plus Rand’s philosophy is shaky at best. I do enjoy _Anthem for_ its brevity and style, but the other texts are too much.

I think you’re right. And like I said, no matter what, it comes down to character and conflict first. If the essential aspects of narrative are missing, it doesn’t matter what you write.


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## bdcharles (Aug 24, 2018)

I definitely think there's a place for it, possibly now more than ever. But I agree that when belaboured, it can seem tedious and messagey or just too much in some way. I prefer my political to be personal, because it is, it effects us all, and that makes it easier to write because you can do it from a character's POV then. My finished MS concerns, among other things, the acquisition, retention and wielding of power. It is, in one sense, a manual about how to handle such situations. But I have taken pains to try and make a jolly old fantasy romp out of it too.



luckyscars said:


> From what I am aware of Rand's novels they are essentially fables to  support her political view. Some people like them, a lot do not. The  people who like Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead, etc by and large agree  with the philosophy and everybody else thinks they are worthless. For  me, that is an example of the kind of writing to be avoided. Besides the  fact it all too often descends into a polemic it's just not what I  believe most publishers, and most readers for that matter are looking  for.



When I read _The Fountainhead_, I found it to be one of those annoying novels, like _Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance_ and Steve Jobs' biography, that made me want to do loads of work. They glorify the vision, the dedication and passion that the sort of individualists might possess. But I would say that Rand's novel fell a bit short in the way it depicted the second-handers, who were rendered pretty much unconvincing (unless one is decidedly Randian in one's outlook) cardboard cutouts. I would like to see a book that depicts the benefits of both  collectivists and individualists bringing their skills to bear on some novelish situation. Maybe I'll shoehorn that in as a theme somewhere...


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## Ralph Rotten (Aug 24, 2018)

I always thought Animal Farm by Eric Blair was a powerful tale, and that's 150% political.


For me, it's okay to have political characters. In fact I try to have characters from both sides of the debate.
But the narrator remains apolitical. The closest the narrator comes to being political is when they tell you about a character (and sometimes may adopt their phraseology as they explain the person's motivations.)


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## moderan (Aug 24, 2018)

I grew up reading Allen Drury and Leon Uris and people like that --they were popular when i was young and my mom got 'em from the library and the Book-of-the-Month Club. COME NINEVEH, COME TYRE, and Gore Vidal's things were great reads and went a long way toward getting me politically conscious early.
I could see a market in this day and age for that kind of work, coming from any political direction. There are seemingly built-in markets.
In the small-press, specfic world, there have been a half-dozen or so anthologies explicitly dealing with political matters, mostly lefty as the weird tends in that direction, and quite a few novels reflecting on identity or sexual politics have garnered much notice recently.
And then there are the Hugo Awards, about which we shouldn't speak, probably, but they're a mirror of the above, and the removal of HP Lovecraft's likeness from the statuette of The World Fantasy Award, which is explicitly based on Lovecraft's antiquated racial politics.
I don't have any published novels, but almost all of my published work deals with interpersonal politics in general and often treats with Politics as well, most especially in the Eric Frank Russell experimental sense. I have an ob to do that, being not-quite as ignorant as some (maybe two people will recognize that allusion).


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## Jack of all trades (Aug 24, 2018)

In order to really reach people it has to entertaining and/or engaging. Otherwise the message is likely to be unheard because because few will be interested in reading or watching the piece.


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## luckyscars (Aug 24, 2018)

bdcharles said:


> When I read The Fountainhead, I found it to be one of those annoying novels, like Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and Steve Jobs' biography, that made me want to do loads of work. They glorify the vision, the dedication and passion that the sort of individualists might possess. But I would say that Rand's novel fell a bit short in the way it depicted the second-handers, who were rendered pretty much unconvincing (unless one is decidedly Randian in one's outlook) cardboard cutouts. I would like to see a book that depicts the benefits of both collectivists and individualists bringing their skills to bear on some novelish situation. Maybe I'll shoehorn that in as a theme somewhere...




One hundred percent agreed about Zen & The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance etc. I don't really think of those novels as political, but they are philosophically obsessed, which I find runs close enough. You could arguably file most counterculture literature in that same box. At best it is the literature of ideas above story. At worst it is self-serving pretentious garbage.

Ayn Rand is different for me because there is a defined political world view and movement attached to it, but I agree that these are all books that prioritize their concepts above the way human beings actually operate. I personally don't think that is conducive to good, published literature and maintain my belief that most readers don't want a manifesto. On the other hand, and perhaps in conflict to this, I can and do appreciate the novels of Dostoevsky,  Camus, etc whose work is riddled with poltiics. Admittedly part of that is likely because I find their political persuasions more palatable, but I also think they're damn good stories too. A book like "Crime & Punishment" is a damn good novel regardless of how left or right you are.




Ralph Rotten said:


> I always thought Animal Farm by Eric Blair was a powerful tale, and that's 150% political.
> 
> 
> For me, it's okay to have political characters. In fact I try to have characters from both sides of the debate.
> But the narrator remains apolitical. The closest the narrator comes to being political is when they tell you about a character (and sometimes may adopt their phraseology as they explain the person's motivations.)




I agree that Animal Farm is an example of a genuinely good story that is overtly political. 


One thing I would note is that at under 30,000 words it is firmly out of the range of an adult novel. The only reason that matters is because I think political satire and allegory is generally much better suited to shorter works where the main ideas can be succinctly presented in as powerful a way as possible without the conceit of a novel. Many children's books (and I would consider Animal Farm to be something akin to a children's book in terms of style) use political themes and they often work brilliantly in that sector. Something like The Giving Tree or The Butter Battle Book or Watership Down are all much better for their political edge. 








moderan said:


> I grew up reading Allen Drury and Leon Uris and people like that --they were popular when i was young and my mom got 'em from the library and the Book-of-the-Month Club. COME NINEVEH, COME TYRE, and Gore Vidal's things were great reads and went a long way toward getting me politically conscious early.
> I could see a market in this day and age for that kind of work, coming from any political direction. There are seemingly built-in markets.
> In the small-press, specfic world, there have been a half-dozen or so anthologies explicitly dealing with political matters, mostly lefty as the weird tends in that direction, and quite a few novels reflecting on identity or sexual politics have garnered much notice recently.
> And then there are the Hugo Awards, about which we shouldn't speak, probably, but they're a mirror of the above, and the removal of HP Lovecraft's likeness from the statuette of The World Fantasy Award, which is explicitly based on Lovecraft's antiquated racial politics.
> I don't have any published novels, but almost all of my published work deals with interpersonal politics in general and often treats with Politics as well, most especially in the Eric Frank Russell experimental sense. I have an ob to do that, being not-quite as ignorant as some (maybe two people will recognize that allusion).




I think what makes a tremendous difference is whether the novel can be enjoyed more or less regardless of the political content. The very best political novels are arguably ones that any ideology can claim because the truths within them are so self-evident they transcend tribal boundary. Orwell's 1984 is a good example of that. Those on the right think it speaks for their struggle and those on the left think its speaks for theirs. Is it anti-communist or anti-fascist? Both, neither, it is anti-extremist. Orwell's personal politics of course were defined but his work was not. To contrast that with Rand (and I don't mean to continue to beat up on Rand but it is rather easy) the "story" in her work is largely only meaningful if you already agree with Objectivism. 


I suppose that segues quite neatly to what seems to be the obvious difference between good and bad political writing: Don't go preaching to the choir.




Jack of all trades said:


> In order to really reach people it has to entertaining and/or engaging. Otherwise the message is likely to be unheard because because few will be interested in reading or watching the piece.




Agreed. Obviously this goes for absolutely anything and everything that finds its way into a book so not sure if it has particular relevance to political themes per say.


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## Squalid Glass (Aug 24, 2018)

I also find that political novels work best when the society in the novel acts as an antagonist, meaning the protagonist moves against a political ideology. Dystopias work well with this. If it’s the other way around, the story can suffer.


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## moderan (Aug 25, 2018)

luckyscars said:


> <snip>
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Or in which the political content is backdrop, as in the rafts and rafts of Cold War spy novels. The best of those, though, turn the whole idea on its ear and make ideology itself the antagonist and those in service of the various ideologies mere enablers. (see Ambler, Eric; Deighton, Len; Forsyth, Frederick, et al)


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## Ralph Rotten (Aug 25, 2018)

Just write a tell-all book about Trump and you can make a quick million.


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## ironpony (Aug 25, 2018)

Squalid Glass said:


> I also find that political novels work best when the society in the novel acts as an antagonist, meaning the protagonist moves against a political ideology. Dystopias work well with this. If it’s the other way around, the story can suffer.



What do you mean if it's the other way around, what would an example of that be?


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## Olly Buckle (Aug 25, 2018)

ironpony said:


> What do you mean if it's the other way around, what would an example of that be?



I think he means it seems more likely to work if it criticises an ideology than if it tries to promote one. I think I would agree with that, it is easier to join in being critical than it is to take something being pushed at you; on the other hand Mein Kampf was a massive best seller in its day, so it's not always true.

I wrote half a group of short stories, it was only later that I realised the main characters were well intentioned people acting badly, but as well as they knew. It is the assumption that there are almost no abnormal people, just normal people in abnormal situations. I think that, and what leads from it, are political subjects that have a bearing on things like prison populations, the association of poverty and crime, and what society does about them. I wouldn't dream of taking it that far. 'I am just telling a story', he said innocently, 'What people make of it is up to them'


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## Squalid Glass (Aug 25, 2018)

Yes, in the domain of fiction, I think promoting an ideology feels too heavy handed whereas attacking one creates instant conflict.


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## luckyscars (Aug 25, 2018)

Squalid Glass said:


> Yes, in the domain of fiction, I think promoting an ideology feels too heavy handed whereas attacking one creates instant conflict.



For me, merely attacking any given ideology usually comes across flaccid. Anybody can write a book raging against the machine. It's been done going back to the days of Robin Hood.

For a few years I have been intermittently working a collaborative project with a friend of mine that is, I would say, a _utopian_ novel. The society in question has risen from the ashes of the old and is, by most people's accounts, pretty much perfect. The conflict arises not from the society but from certain age old human failings and anti-establishment sentiment threatening the new order. 

I don't know if its a better story than the boiler suited fascistic hell of traditional dystopian novels but it does feel different at least.


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## andrewclunn (Aug 25, 2018)

I don't always make the antagonist a corrupt government bureaucrat, been when I do I'm trying for a Prometheus Award.


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## Theglasshouse (Aug 25, 2018)

1984 seems still the best political novel I have read, even though I need to do more reading in that genre...I definitely think dystopias are underappreciated even though that is a strong statement. It's a way to analyze society when its values are inverted and seems a reflection of what is to come in store for the future. 1984 is explicit about a future that never happened.

One thing to avoid when writing a political novel seems the advice that you shouldn't preach when writing a story.


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## moderan (Aug 26, 2018)

Squalid Glass said:


> Yes, in the domain of fiction, I think promoting an ideology feels too heavy handed whereas attacking one creates instant conflict.


Ever read Eric Frank Russell? How about Bob Shaw?


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## Squalid Glass (Aug 26, 2018)

moderan said:


> Ever read Eric Frank Russell? How about Bob Shaw?



Nope


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## moderan (Aug 26, 2018)

Both experiment with presenting different political/sociological ideologies in different settings. It makes for interesting and often amusing reading.


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## luckyscars (Aug 26, 2018)

Theglasshouse said:


> 1984 seems still the best political novel I have read, even though I need to do more reading in that genre...I definitely think dystopias are underappreciated even though that is a strong statement. It's a way to analyze society when its values are inverted and seems a reflection of what is to come in store for the future. 1984 is explicit about a future that never happened.
> 
> One thing to avoid when writing a political novel seems the advice that you shouldn't preach when writing a story.




Define “preaching” in the context of a novel?


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## Kevin (Aug 26, 2018)

Preaching would be a monologue where the agenda is stated outright. I think that works for the slow minded, the ignorant masses, often, but a more subtle yanking of the heartstrings and/or triggering of knee-jerk emotional responces to situations portrayed, I think, is a better way to subvert those masses, which tend to want to view themselves as reasonable and reasoning. That way they think they came up with it  ( their conclusion) themselves --* bingo! -- * or the 'aha' moment, when the whole time it is you that have led them there. You see, political writing is about catching the wave, and then steering it to the desired destination. You want them to question 'things', and then agree with you.


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## Ralph Rotten (Aug 26, 2018)

To me preaching would be what happens when the 3rd person narrator begins trying to hawk the philosophy (instead of the characters doing it.)


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## AdrianBraysy (Aug 29, 2018)

I like political/philosophical novels when they honestly explore ideas. Rather than creating strawman antagonists, and a world where the hero is obviously the correct one, try honestly arguing for both sides, perhaps provide two other perspectives for contrast.

My problems with Rand's writing are the long speeches. I think the Galt speech in Atlas Shrugged goes on for like 70 pages! No one wants to be preached to in that way. Instead, try this:

Character 1: Atheist humanist who upholds human rights.

Character 2: religious person who takes the holy book literally.

Character 3: religious person who is also a humanist, but believes society needs religion to not break apart.

Character 4: Atheist who is not humanist, and believes nihilism is the only rational conclusion of atheism.

Argue as well as you can for all 4 viewpoints. Present the hardest arguments. Have them all clash. That's how one could go about creating a philosophical novel without turning it into what feels like propaganda. It's the same think Dostoevsky did in Crime and Punishment. Raskolnikov goes through a set of rather extreme internal struggles throughout the book, and all conclusions seem to have a point.

Same thing with Light and L in the manga Death Note. One character wants to kill all criminals, and the other one wants to stop him. It's not obvious who is right and the manga leaves it partly up to the audience to decide.


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## Olly Buckle (Sep 3, 2018)

It occurs to me that with most good stories you could ask a dozen people what the book is about and get a dozen different answers, that is good storytelling, but that when someone is intent on making a political point often that becomes *the* point and it is all that the book is about. That is when it becomes poor storytelling.


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