# Should I take people's suggestions if I don't know why?



## ironpony (Apr 18, 2018)

Basically I want to take the advice I learned in my writing class and kill my darlings as the expression goes, but some of the suggestions by people I asked, I do not know why they suggested.  Like they would suggest that I change character's decision making, having no idea why these characters are making these new decisions, which seem to contradict what went on before in the story.  Their are also other suggestions I do not understand.  Like for example, one person said that I should change one of the major characters to a man, cause it gets rid of the 'damsel in distress problem' as she put it.  I'm asked what damsel in distress problem is that, but she never got back to me and just said to take the advice and change it.

That's just one example, but I feel that I do not understand the changes so how can I apply them if I do not know why the characters are being changed, or behaving differently?

I also feel that a lot of the changes cannot be changed without the plot going to pieces, cause the plot is like a building of jenga blocks and you can't pull one out without destroying the others.  So I should I just kill my darlings, and apply the suggestions even though I do not know why I am applying them, cause the reader know's best?  Perhaps if I do, and just trust the reader, that it will make more sense, it will read better with fresh eyes, but what do you think?


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## Jack of all trades (Apr 18, 2018)

You should only follow advice and/or suggestions that resonate with you.

It's your name on the project. It's your reputation at stake. You should sink or swim based on your work. Blindly following advice and suggestions of your instructor may be the way to get an "A"in class, but it doesn't really help in the real world.

I am against the "killing little darlings" advice. What you enjoy may very well be what many readers/viewers enjoy.

For example, I've seen two interviews of two different actors who played recurring villains, and both chose to use comedy to keep the characters interesting. One had to fight both the director and producer, and looked for ways to slip in some comedy. The writers grabbed the comedic idea and the character quickly became a funny break from the rest of the show. I know that's a little different than the "little darlings" idea, but I think it makes my point. One or two people are not representative of all, and what those one or two identify as "little darlings" may be the attraction of many other folks!


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## Bayview (Apr 18, 2018)

I think this is the problem with "writing by committee", and I think you have a tendency to WANT to write by committee, so... I'm glad you're thinking about this.

It seems obvious that you shouldn't take advice you don't agree with. But you may want to go a step further and stop _soliciting_ so much advice, given that you probably shouldn't take most of it.

This is your project. You're the one who knows the characters and the plot and the themes. You're the one who has to figure out how to make all these elements work together--no one else can do that for you.


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## bdcharles (Apr 18, 2018)

Good points made above. I think you need to maintain enough _author_ity over your story that you know what it needs. Of course that's just my suggestion. Ignore me and let the vision in your head be your guide


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## Sync (Apr 18, 2018)

Critiques, like any tools of writing, need to be understood before adaptation. If you don't understand why a review suggested changes - take the time to research into the grounds of their reasoning. They could be wrong, their way could be right. 

But to change your writing without knowing why. Never. It would be moot to do so, because you haven't learned anything from it. 

Many new writers take critiques the wrong way. It's understandable because they are still too close to their writings. 

Best in your choices to you

Sync


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## ironpony (Apr 18, 2018)

Okay thanks.  It's not so much that I wanted to write by committee, but kill my darlings, but lately they are starting to feel like the same thing when it comes to a lot of things in the story.  As for plot holes vs. suspense, for example, a couple of readers suggested that one of the supporting characters doesn't actually die and should fake his death, having all the consequences of his death be deliberate by him.  It will fix a plot hole they said, and so I rewrote an outline with the death faked all along, and I see what they mean about filling a plot hole...

However, with the death faked some things are changed around, and it builds towards a new climax which I find to be much more underwhelming in comparison, so it depends on what is more important, a plot hole, or an underwhelming climax.


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## Sync (Apr 18, 2018)

That's the thing about stories and their plot lines. They are a bit like a spider's web. Touch one sentence, and it reverberates throughout the whole. It is why I believe each edit has to be understood, the consequences of those changes, and how they will effect the story, the characters, the plot and flow. 

Don't forget that you are in the process of changing your writing. There will be bumps and grinds along the way. It is expected. This is where you have to believe in your writing. If they suggest something, and it seems to work but feels 'wrong' still in your mind. Then make it work in your mind. You need to keep your story in your own voice(the whole story). Whenever you just insert someone's ideas into yours, it stands out like a broken spoke. 

Don't get discouraged. That you are willing to improve is an excellent step forward. Keep walking.


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## Kyle R (Apr 18, 2018)

It sounds to me like you're writing too much "with the door open" (as Stephen King would say). It might help if you narrow your feedback pool to one reader, whose opinion you trust.

This way, you're not being exposed to so many varying ideas.

Also, remember that, as the writer, you have no obligation to apply any suggestion that you receive. It's your story, above all. You don't even have to accept _any_ suggestions, if you don't want to.

My wife is my primary reader, and I tend to dismiss about 90% of her ideas (I'm stubborn, and she knows it). But I'm grateful for all her feedback—especially that last 10%.

So my advice (take it or leave it): find yourself a trusted reader, if you can, and restrict the feedback you receive to them only.

And always keep in mind that you're the one in creative control. :encouragement:


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## SueC (Apr 18, 2018)

I was in a writing group awhile back, and sometimes the suggestions made told me that they didn't really understand what I was trying to do. I like Jack's comment about only using suggestions that feel right to you. If you can say, yeah, that sounds like it would work better - give it a try. Otherwise, move on (IMO). And something you might want to think of, especially when the advice seems to come from left field, is that many people feel passionate about one thing or another, and it could just be that your character either doesn't fit their ideas or their perception of what they should be.

For example, when one writes about times gone by, when women were more or less under the thumb of their husbands/male influence, you have to be honest when creating a character that either lived during that time, or was so influenced. This may rub some people the wrong way, given today's culture, and they could tell you to change things like names and gender because of that, and not necessarily because it is better for the piece you are writing.

I'm just saying that if the advice you receive makes no sense, or there's no rationale for the change, just say "thanks" and put it aside. Good luck, Ironpony!


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## ironpony (Apr 18, 2018)

Okay thanks.  And not all the suggestions were not working of course, some of them were really good, on here as well.  For example, it was suggested to me before to get rid of a red herring character, and that the character was not necessary and I did and feel that section of the plot works better now, and that a red herring isn't always necessary.


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## Blackstone (Apr 18, 2018)

Jack makes a valid point that sometimes the things you enjoy are the things your readers enjoy. It would be kind of strange if that wasn't true. The problem is that, sometimes, they are miles apart. 

Your opinion on your work as its creator will never be the same as your readers. It just won't. You cannot be impartial to your own work any more than the parent of an accused murderer can sit on the jury at the trial. Your default approach to your work is to believe something works until proven otherwise; your readers' will likely be the opposite. With that in mind, it seems very foolish to rely on your experience to determine that of your readers and to use _your _enjoyment as sole justification for whether it works.

Everything in a story should have a purpose. Sometimes great scenes may have nothing to do with the plot really at all, but if that's the case they must still tell us something important and the same is necessarily true for characters. Nobody would ever question if the balcony scene in Romeo & Julie belonged in the play - it's one of the most memorable scenes - even though it really does not add very much to the plot. The gas station coin toss scene in No Country For Old Men is one of the most memorable scenes in the book (and movie), even though it is quite short and the events don't necessarily tie into the main storyline. What makes it important is what it shows. A minute glimpse into a character who is otherwise an enigma. I suspect a strict "kill your darlings" approach would probably have caused both these scenes to get cut. As far as characters, plenty of 'red herring' characters are incredibly effective or memorable. Some books, like Alice In Wonderland, are not only full of red herring characters but built on them.

Kyle/Stephen King's advice is the way to go, for me. Write with the door closed, edit with the door open. I find the 'kill your darlings' expression is best employed when all other assessments have been made; when you have written the first draft, let it cool, and then read it yourself. At that point you can and should start to ask yourself some hard questions about what should or should not be kept and why. Generally I find if Character X's or Scene Y's existence can even be brought into question that is a pretty solid indicator that it should be cut, but its your judgement and nobody else's.


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## Bloggsworth (Apr 19, 2018)

No.


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## Blackstone (Apr 19, 2018)

ironpony said:


> So I should I just kill my darlings, and apply the suggestions even though I do not know why I am applying them, cause the reader know's best?  Perhaps if I do, and just trust the reader, that it will make more sense, it will read better with fresh eyes, but what do you think?



Oh, by the way, I think two pieces of advice that are absolutely true in every aspect of writing & life in general are: 

1 - Do not take advice you do not understand &

2 - Do not value the input of people who find time to offer their opinion yet do not respect you enough to bother explaining what they mean. These people probably don't care about helping you much; what they want to do is make themselves bigger by making you feel smaller.

Good luck Mr. Pony.


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## Jane Stewart (Apr 19, 2018)

It seems to me that the fact the critic who told you to get rid of the 'damsel in distress problem' and then didn't get back to you with an explanation, should be completely ignored. If people are making suggestions to you about making changes they should be able to justify their suggestions at the very least. Unless someone is making a point that you consider valid, or that you have been concerned about, I suggest you ignore the criticism.


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## Tettsuo (Apr 19, 2018)

Tons of great feedback here.  Just to add... writers tend to want to "reshape" a story in a way they would like it.  Remember that when people give you advice on your writing. What works for their sensibilities may not work for yours.


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## Ralph Rotten (Apr 20, 2018)

There are ways to use feedback without actually using their _cockamamie _suggestions.
Here's an example; people routinely suggest alternate endings to your story.
Translation; the ending you wrote was so underwhelming that they thought they could do better.
Solution; don't write whatever Joey the barista said to write, but definitely write something better.

Simply put, the bulk of suggestions from laymen are stupid.  But you can take away from their comments what parts of the book need work.

Last thing; take into consideration who is making the suggestion, especially in online forums. Nowhere in the universe will you find a greater concentration of Dunning-Kruger than in a writing forum.


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## Jane Stewart (Apr 22, 2018)

*Did you get my message?*

I replied to you but I am new on here and I don't know if you got the reply or not. Is there someway you can let me know if you received it or not as I cannot see it on here.


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## SueC (Apr 22, 2018)

Jane, I can see both of your posts clearly on this thread. They are on page 2, which may be why you didn't see them. Each page ends in a blank post, so you have to check on how many pages of the thread to see anything additional you may have posted.


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## Jane Stewart (Apr 22, 2018)

*Thanks*

OK thank you for that, how stupid am I???


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## ironpony (Apr 22, 2018)

Okay thanks for the advice everyone!

When it comes to suggestions that I need a new ending, I would try coming up with several new endings and asked if those endings were better, but those endings had problems too with other people, and eventually I just ended up going with the previous ending I had, cause I felt that no matter what ending I come up with, there will always be problems, so I might as just go for the original ending that already has holes in it, instead of the bigger endings, which may have bigger holes in or more get more ridiculous, the harder I try. 

I guess it depends on what is more important, going for broke, which may result in bigger holes, or more ridiculousness, or quitting while I am ahead, even though it be underwhelming, but everything ends more clean and simple, rather than going for broke?

As for the whole damsel in distress problem, I went through her notes on what she had issues with before, and I think what she meant by that is, basically in the story a woman who knows too much about the opening crime, is being hunted down by the villains cause they want to silence her, so the main character, a cop, goes out of his way to watch her for the night and puts her up in a hotel or something like that, while keeping watch.

Some people said that he wouldn't do this cause it compromises the whole case, as the court could just assume that they got romantically involved or hooked up for the night, in which case, the whole case is tainted.

So I think what the reader meant was that they should change the woman who knows too much, to a man, so the court will not the case out and cause they wouldn't jump to the conclusion that something could have happened between the witness and the cop.  But would the court really be more lenient on that, if the witness was a man?  It just seems dumb to change a character to a man just cause the court would jump to a different conclusion if it was a woman.  Unless I am wrong and that was her point, and it was valid.


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## Jack of all trades (Apr 22, 2018)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks for the advice everyone!
> 
> When it comes to suggestions that I need a new ending, I would try coming up with several new endings and asked if those endings were better, but those endings had problems too with other people, and eventually I just ended up going with the previous ending I had, cause I felt that no matter what ending I come up with, there will always be problems, so I might as just go for the original ending that already has holes in it, instead of the bigger endings, which may have bigger holes in or more get more ridiculous, the harder I try.
> 
> ...



We all have to decide whose advice to heed and whose to ignore. Some advice is good and some is awful. So how to decide?

One way is to look at the writing of the advisor. If you like it, then consider the advice. If you hate it, you should probably ignore the advice because it's likely to result in you hating your own piece.

If the advisor is not a writer, then look at what the advisor likes to read or watch. If you like the same things, consider the advice. If you hate those things, again ignoring the advice is probably for the best.

To demonstrate my point, I'll use an example in painting. I don't like cubism. So if someone told me to paint in that style, I wouldn't be able to do it well. It's not about whether cubism is valid. It's about execution.

So don't feel bad when you ignore advice. Be true to yourself.


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## ironpony (May 1, 2018)

Okay thanks.  One part of my screenplay, is where a woman kidnaps and rapes a man, and I was told by readers that they didn't feel a woman would be physically strong enough to move a man after incapacitating him.  They said that I should write it so that she has a male accomplice who would be stronger, in order to help her out with moving him and restraining him.

However, if I write it that way, I would have to create a new character who has a reason for helping her commit this type of crime, and I keep asking myself, what's in it for him?  It feels like possibly a forced and unnecessary character, motive wise, but I was told he in necessary, physical wise.

Do you think I should add in a male accomplice character, and try to give him some kind of motive, in order to help her out, and make it more physically plausible?


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## Theglasshouse (May 1, 2018)

> Okay thanks. One part of my screenplay, is where a woman kidnaps and rapes a man, and I was told by readers that they didn't feel a woman would be physically strong enough to move a man after incapacitating him. They said that I should write it so that she has a male accomplice who would be stronger, in order to help her out with moving him and restraining him.
> 
> However, if I write it that way, I would have to create a new character who has a reason for helping her commit this type of crime, and I keep asking myself, what's in it for him? It feels like possibly a forced and unnecessary character, motive wise, but I was told he in necessary, physical wise.
> 
> Do you think I should add in a male accomplice character, and try to give him some kind of motive, in order to help her out, and make it more physically plausible?



How about drugging the person in the story? That would make the crime easier to do. I've seen movies use this to make the plot more believable. Since it can sedate the person and make them think less clearly or reason. This could open some new background information about the person but there is not much changing in the overall storyline. I have encountered this in movies and in newspapers where they report the information or create this.


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## ironpony (May 1, 2018)

Okay thanks, but I thought that even if she drugged him she would still have to move him, and need help, no?  Also, the problem with drugging is that it makes it more difficult for her to get away with the crime, if he has evidence of drugs in his system, for when he goes to report it.  The drug evidence gives the police more to chew on, and makes it more complicated for her to get away with, as oppose to no drugs being in his system at all.  I could write it so that he is drugged but I thought that would make the crime, even more hard to get away with, compared to not drugging him at all.

That's what other readers said to, to drug him, but they made no mention of how she will just be making this harder on herself cause rape drugs will be found in his system later, when I want to her leave no evidence behind.


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## Char_M (May 2, 2018)

First off it's important to know what readers you're targeting. We call it "knowing your audience". If the person giving advice isn't in your target audience, listen but do as you see fit. It's your story, so tell it. If they aren't willing to elaborate to help you see their point then I'd simply take it with a grain of salt and move on. Readers can be very forgiving when they're caught up in the story. So cater too them. Editors are supposed to help. If they're not helping consider finding a new one. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Ralph Rotten (May 2, 2018)

A small woman could easily move a big man around with a simple rope and pulley, or a wire stretcher.  A rope and a fairly simple device (she keeps I her kit) could drag him across the floor, up into the back of a vehicle, pretty much anywhere she can hook the rope (literally a hook.)  She could learn to tie him up from a fetish site, and they sell the gear online.  All a determined girl needs is the right tools.  No one doubted the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.  She was badass.


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## ironpony (May 3, 2018)

That's true.  I haven't read the book but only saw the movie of The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.  But if I remember correct, wasn't the guy on the floor the whole time, so Lisbeth did not have to actually move him though?


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## Ralph Rotten (May 5, 2018)

Block & tackle.
If you want an ordinary character, then limit her to only her physical strength.
But if you want a character that blows readers' minds then make her smart enough to do something out of the box.
Make her do something special.  The equipment is available at any Ace hardware store.  
Make her clever enough that the reader marvels at her even though she does evil things.


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## ironpony (May 7, 2018)

Oh okay.  You say Ace Hardware store, but I thought we were talking drugs and things like that?


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