# Self-publishing or Traditional Bricks and Mortar?



## Riis Marshall (Oct 28, 2014)

Hello folks

Having spent several years writing - fiction: contemporary thrillers with political themes - then trying to figure out how to see my work in print, I've come to these conclusions:

If I were to go the self-publishing route I estimate I would have to spend about 80% of my time promoting my work. This includes not only the book-signing tours and related activities, but the website, Twitter, Facebook and the blog at the least. This would leave me with about 20% of my time to write. I have not conducted any work study on this matter (my profession for 25 years) but my guess is this 80-20 breakdown is probably about right.

If I were to go the traditional route working with bricks and mortar publishers through an agent, I estimate I would have to spend about 50% of my time promoting my work. This would leave me about 50% of my time to write. Having published a management book about fifteen years ago through the traditional route, I'm reasonably comfortable with this 50-50 split.

I don't know about all you nice folks out there, but personally I'm going to choose the alternative that gives me more time to write.

Thus, immediately I finish this post, I'm going looking for an agent (not really immediately; it will actually be shortly after Christmas).

Having done this once before, I know it will take some time, some postage and some frustration but this is my choice.

Recently I have had the chance to chat with several authors who have gone the self-publishing route and they have told me the only way a prospective agent or publisher will even think about looking at your project(s) will be if they are convinced from the start your work will be a commercial success - a runaway best seller. Think about _50 Shades of Smut_ or _The DaVinki Code_.

It would be nice to hear from others who have views on this subject, and any experiences - good, not so good or disgustingly horrible - with this.

The last time around I started first by submitting my work directly to publishers. My understanding is today this would be a complete waste of time because I'm told no publisher will even look at work that has not been submitted through an agent. I spent a year and a half at this with no luck. I finally rang an editor following her very constructive rejection letter suggesting it was a good book but did not fit comfortably into her portfolio. She kindly suggested I find an agent.

Finding an agent prepared to consider work by an unpublished author took me nine months.

She spent about two years before she was able to get me across the table from a publisher (after a full re-write).

Since this was such a long time ago, I must assume the book publishing business has changed in all sorts of ways. I have absolutely no idea how long this will take. Also, I have no reason to assume the process for commercial fiction is likely to be the same as for commercial non-fiction.

I'll keep you posted - if you'll pardon the pun.

All the best with your writing.

Warmest regards
Riis


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## shadowwalker (Oct 29, 2014)

I would just note a couple of things:

Yes, publishers want books that will be a commercial success - but that does not mean they only look for runaway best-sellers. Look at the number of books pubished each year - no way they are all best-sellers, but they do sell.

Second, I doubt you'll spend 50% of your time promoting your book - unless you _want _to. Publishers will deal with most of that.

Last - yes, you do need an agent for most publishers of any size/reputation. It's to the advantage of everyone involved - the publisher gets stories that have already been vetted by the agent, and the author has someone who not only gets their book in front of the right people, but can help negotiate a fair contract.


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## Bishop (Oct 29, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> Last - yes, you do need an agent for most publishers of any size/reputation. It's to the advantage of everyone involved - the publisher gets stories that have already been vetted by the agent, and the author has someone who not only gets their book in front of the right people, but can help negotiate a fair contract.



Agents do legitimately represent your interests as well--after all, if you don't get paid, THEY don't get paid. And, as Malcolm Reynolds said: "About fifty percent of the world is middlemen, and they don't take too kindly to being cut out." Publishers go golfing with the agents, and they respect their opinions far more than the interns reading through the slush pile.


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## Tyler Danann (Oct 29, 2014)

I went the self-publish road and what I've noticed is, and maybe it's the same with trad. publishing, that after 6 - 12 months your book sales will taper from high-medium to medium-low.
You have to make all these noises again to friends, new friends, new forums and outlets just to try and get your sales going again. It's all fun and buzzy at first going to libraries and bookstores to sell your product, but it get's old real fast.

With regular publishers it's a machine that doesn't sleep if you get your foot in the door.  Yet with that I find is with MOST agents/publishers is they want it to be within their comfortable parameters. Typically they want books that fall within a 'sphere' and if you are outside it they may have you change your book to fit what they want the audiences to read. I say most publishers because some will still keep the 'hands off' approach if they know it will sell ok and don't want to interfere. Publishers like this are quite seldom in the modern world though.


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## shadowwalker (Oct 29, 2014)

Tyler Danann said:


> Yet with that I find is with MOST agents/publishers is they want it to be within their comfortable parameters. Typically they want books that fall within a 'sphere' and if you are outside it they may have you change your book to fit what they want the audiences to read. I say most publishers because some will still keep the 'hands off' approach if they know it will sell ok and don't want to interfere. Publishers like this are quite seldom in the modern world though.



Publishers (and agents) have one major roadblock to having authors change things - it's still the author's book. Unless you've signed a really, really, really bad contract, no one can change your book except you. What I've found is that many writers either refuse to acknowledge that some changes will benefit the book (regardless of sales factors) because of Golden Word Syndrom, or have simply picked the wrong agent/publisher (not done their homework). You don't submit to a top agent that doesn't handle your genre, for example.


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## Riis Marshall (Oct 29, 2014)

Hello Shadowwalker

My 50-50 estimate is based on my 25 years experience working as a management consultant, the last nine of which were running my own business. If I failed to spend about 50% of my time looking for my next job, the work dried up. Authors we all know spend some of their time on book-signing tours, making presentations to reading groups, visiting and speaking at writers' conferences and in the case of the big names in the business, doing interviews with TV presenters. Whether they spend 50% of their time at this or more or less, they nevertheless spend significant time with these activities and this clearly is time they could otherwise spend writing.

My sad experience with my publisher, International Thomson Business Press, was that they put little effort in promoting my book. For example, I found out later from the friend of a friend that the review copy they sent to _The Financial Times_ did not even include a covering letter, it was just a bare naked copy of the book in a brown envelope. When I suggested to my editor that we might set up a table in the American Express Business Lounge at Heathrow for a launch he: (1) looked at me like I was speaking a foreign language then (2) told my they didn't do things like that but they could lend me enough copies to fill several dump bins for my launch if I wanted to pay AMEX £20,000 to rent a table for a couple of hours.

It became all too clear, too late in my case because by the time I realized what they had done - or more accurately not done, the momentum was lost.

Why a publisher would put up the money to pay an advance of £3000 and pay to print and distribute 3000 copies of my book and then put almost no effort to promote it is beyond me but that is what happened. I read somewhere a few years ago that a publisher only expects to make a profit on one out of every eight books published. I have no idea whether this is accurate but in my case they didn't make a profit.

So, based on these experiences, I'm going to do whatever it takes to find an agent then after she or he finds a publisher, spend whatever time it takes to promote my book to some reasonable level of commercial success. My aim is not to see it at the top of the _New York Times_ best seller list but it would be nice to earn enough money to upgrade my drum kit and take my wife on a holiday.

Thanks for listening.

All the best with your writing.

Warmest regards
Riis


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## Tyler Danann (Oct 29, 2014)

Better to keep under the radar in some ways. Be popular, but not best-seller popular.
This may seem strange but the hassle and 'fame' comes with the price of money not being all it's cracked up to be if you're losing your soul in the process.


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## shadowwalker (Oct 30, 2014)

Riis, if you were self-publishing, then I could definitely agree that you should be out promoting/marketing your product. However, once you have signed on with a trade publisher, they do the lion's share. One has to remember that promotion/marketing does not mean having a booth at a convention - that is only one very small part of it (and, like open houses in real estate, are not particularly effective for the individual/book). The real promotional/marketing effort comes behind the scenes - and unfortunately, you had a publisher who apparently did not do a very good job. That does not, however, translate into "All authors must spend 50% of their time promoting their books". It only means that your publisher did a poor job for your book. So, if you want to do promotional stuff, you should do so. But it's not expected, not necessary, and it will not invariably mean the difference between success and failure. There are some authors who should never, ever, do it.


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## Tyler Danann (Oct 30, 2014)

I agree, if a publisher is putting hard coin on the line to get the book printed the books will be hitting bookshelves across the land and, if the cover is good, will often sell themselves. So the advertizing factor is often with them being in the very bookstores themselves!
I liken the publishing houses as the automated factories - if the book is accepted by the factory-keeper it will be sent on from there and the author can watch as it goes through the printworks to hit the shelves on the highstreet etc.


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## Caragula (Oct 30, 2014)

Tyler, I think there's a bit more to it than that.


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## Riis Marshall (Oct 30, 2014)

Hello Folks

Thanks for your helpful replies.

So, Shadowwalker, if I understand you, when my soon-to-be-identified agent emails me to tell me she or he has submitted my digiscript (we can't really call it a manuscript these days, can we?) to a prospective publisher and a meeting has been arranged, after a very big 'thank you' my first question should not be: 'How much do you think the advance will be?' but rather: 'How good will these folks be at promoting my book?'

Makes sense.

Please be patient; I'll get the hang of it eventually.

All the best with your writing.

Warmest regards
Riis


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## Riis Marshall (Oct 30, 2014)

Hello Tyler

In my case it didn't work quite like that.

My book went onto the bookshelves: Waterstones, Dillons, Barnes & Noble and either B.Dalton or Borders (I forget which one, maybe both). None in W H Smith, whatever _that_ suggests.

I saw them there, looking back at me as I trolled the shelves. Sitting there - just sitting there. After that nothing much happened. Eventually they disappeared. New and used copies can still be found on Bookfinder and Amazon but they/I never sold out the first print run.

So, the next time around I'm going to ensure that somebody does enough effective promotion to get us, at the very least, into the second printing.

All the best with your writing.

Warmest regards
Riis


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## TKent (Oct 30, 2014)

Hey everyone, this is just an info-dump on this topic that we received in my writing class Monday night and I thought would be relevant/interesting to everyone. The teacher's friend's debut novel was picked up by an independent publisher. Here is what they did for her on that first novel:

1. Printed 2000 ARCS for US and UK distribution. 

2. Standard press release for ARC mailout, plus 3 'personal notes' from the head of publisher telling media/booksellers of authors background in specific markets in the SE that were prevalent in the book.

3. Head of publishing handed out ARCs to booksellers and others at the BEA convention in NY

4. Nominated the author for "Discover Great New Writers" program at Barnes & Noble. May not win but lots of B&N booksellers are required to read the book to vote.

5. Assisted author in getting on the speakers roster at SEBA but didn't pay for travel expenses.

6. Marketed the book to booksellers in March and May in NY along with the publishers other Spring and Fall books.

7. The author agreed to do short conference call with any book club with 12 or more members that assigned the book to their group, publisher is publicizing this info.

Author said that what costs the big bucks is the personal book tours and they are not funded unfortunately.

Anyway, this is one data point for an independent publisher, but I love hearing details like this so thought I'd share.

- - - Updated - - -

Riis, another thing that came up (same teacher, same class) was to make sure you understand which publishers your agent is going to submit to. She said that some agents will only worry about the big publishing houses because their 'percentage' on smaller deals is so low that it isn't worth their time. So not saying to make a decision on that but just to 'understand' it so you make an educated decision.


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## Riis Marshall (Oct 30, 2014)

Hello T

Thanks for that.

Every little bit helps. I shall add all this to my promotion tool kit.

All the best with your writing.

Warmest regards
Riis


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## shadowwalker (Oct 30, 2014)

Agents get the same percentage (typically 15%) regardless - so if the big guys won't take it on, they will try the smaller shops (better than 15% of nothing, right?). If they aren't going after _appropriate _publishers (not just the Big Guns), they aren't doing their job.


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## dale (Oct 31, 2014)

Tyler Danann said:


> Better to keep under the radar in some ways. Be popular, but not best-seller popular.
> This may seem strange but the hassle and 'fame' comes with the price of money not being all it's cracked up to be if you're losing your soul in the process.



actually, tyler....my soul would surely appreciate a couple million about now.


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## Plasticweld (Oct 31, 2014)

I don't know why everyone assumes rich guys have no soul or had to lose it to gain their wealth.   This is just an evil stereotype brought on by people who make snap judgments....Honestly the dog was in my way, the kid was going to drop the candy anyway...


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## Riis Marshall (Nov 9, 2014)

Hello Folks

Way back in my sophomoric days I articulated an aphorism that originated, as far as I can tell, with me: 'He who says "money won't buy happiness," says so, not because he is happy, rather because he has no money.'

@Plasticweld: I, for one, don't think all rich guys have no souls. I know some _very_ rich guys who have admirable souls. I also know not a few semi-rich guys who either had no souls in the first place or had apparently sold them somewhere in the process of acquiring their modest wealth.

And I've known some people who were evil in the extreme who had no money at all.

PM me for a story about the richest man in the world who kept tight hold on his soul.

I'm glad we've had this little chat.

All the best with your writing.

Warmest regards
Riis


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