# If there was no electricity...



## starseed (Aug 6, 2012)

A couple questions:

If all the power were to go out permanently (other than off grid) would there still be some way for people to get the fuel from the gas stations? 

If every major city on earth was attacked, and there was no power and no phone communication anywhere on Earth, how long do you think it would take for governments to organize relief and/or military efforts, and where would they focus them? 

Where would they get the gas to power their vehicles? 

How would they talk to each other? 

If the power went out at your house and never came back on, what would you do? (no phones or internet either) How long would you wait before you would try and go somewhere to see what was going on? Where would you go?  


...I appreciate your thoughts.


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## Cran (Aug 7, 2012)

starseed said:


> A couple questions:
> 
> If all the power were to go out permanently (other than off grid) would there still be some way for people to get the fuel from the gas stations?


Yes. They can tap into the underground tanks using hand-operated mechanical pumps, but it's probably simpler for organised groups (the military, etc) to bring in portable gas-powered generators and power the existing pumps if filling vehicle fuel tanks, or by tapping directly into the underground storage (for a higher flow rate) if re-filling fuel tankers. 



> If every major city on earth was attacked, and there was no power and no phone communication anywhere on Earth, how long do you think it would take for governments to organize relief and/or military efforts, and where would they focus them?


The more advanced countries already have contingency plans for rapidly responding and re-establishing some form social control; under martial law in the worst case scenarios. Confiscation of supplies (for coordinated relief and rationing) and summarily dealing with looters are high on the list. Evacuation of unsustainable locations, siting relief camps, and deploying defensive units are also up there. 

How long it would take is harder to generalise, but minutes for the highest priorities (such as securing the Head of State) to hours for the key targets (securing critical infrastructure and deploying rapid response units) to weeks for the general population (relief camps and evacuations). 



> Where would they get the gas to power their vehicles?


If you mean the military, initially from their own stores. There are a lot of military and industrial sites which are not dependent upon the national grid; the former for security reasons, the latter because they are too far from the existing grid infrastructure. Bottled gas (or propane/butane) is commonly stored above ground in both portable and fixed containers. At any given time, there are a number of fuel tankers on the road, delivering fuel to stations. Finally, the confiscation of supplies also includes the refineries and bulk storage facilities. 

If the situation persists, then it's time to revive the old War and Depression-Era methods. Alcohol is easily distilled. Solar and wind for non-essentials or low energy-requirement operations; and steam can be generated using any source of heat as long as you have water. 



> How would they talk to each other?


Assuming that the satellite network is knocked out, then by the older radio network. There are still a lot of ham radio enthusiasts around the world who operate in the short wave radio bands. Quite a few are self-sufficient for power because they are in very isolated locations.  



> If the power went out at your house and never came back on, what would you do? (no phones or internet either) How long would you wait before you would try and go somewhere to see what was going on? Where would you go?


I don't live in a metropolitan area, so the issue is less urgent for me. Power outages are common here, so there are plenty of portable generators and bottled gas available; and a lot of homes are solar-powered anyway. We still have windmills on the farms, and a surplus of food resources and options.


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## The Backward OX (Aug 7, 2012)

starseed said:


> If all the power were to go out permanently (other than off grid) would there still be some way for people to get the fuel from the gas stations?


First, find a gas station located on a hill. Then go to the nearest hardware store and loot a 500 foot length of plastic hose and a 24 inch x 1 inch iron bar.

All fuel is stored in an underground tank. Its entry point will be under a round cap embedded in the station forecourt.

Park your car somewhere downhill from the station.

Using the iron bar, lift the cap off the storage tank. Then insert one end of the hose in the storage tank and carry the other end down to your car. Remove the fuel cap. Take a very deep breath and start sucking on the hose. When your mouth fills with gas, insert the hose in the car’s tank. 


WARNING: DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.




> If every major city on earth was attacked, and there was no power and no phone communication anywhere on Earth, how long do you think it would take for governments to organize relief and/or military efforts, and where would they focus them?


If every major city on earth was attacked, you can bet your sweet bippy that all the major Governments would know the attack was coming, way before the teeming multitudes knew, and would have all gone into hiding in their bomb-proof, radiation-proof mountain bunkers, where they’d just wait for the storm to blow over, then come out under a white flag.



> Where would they get the gas to power their vehicles?


See first reply



> How would they talk to each other?


Most people force air out of their lungs whilst simultaneously moving their vocal cords and lips to create sounds.




> If the power went out at your house and never came back on, what would you do? (no phones or internet either) How long would you wait before you would try and go somewhere to see what was going on? Where would you go?


Go downtown, find a dirty woman and some Jack D, bring ‘em back home, and draw the blinds.








> ...I appreciate your thoughts.


Hope some of this helps.:shock:


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## qwertyman (Aug 7, 2012)

What Ox said, except get the dirty women first before they're all gone and get a traffic warden to suck the hose.




PS It might be a more conclusive scenario if there was an electricity 'virus' that simply eradicated electricity - everything, even generators and windmills couldn't produce any electric power...then what?


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## Sam (Aug 7, 2012)

Remind me to have neither of you along whenever I fill my car. 

You want to remove the cap of a pressurised underground fuel tank with an _iron _bar? One spark and they'll need to find the remains of your teeth to make positive identification.


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## Terry D (Aug 7, 2012)

For a good look at this scenario read S.M. Stirling's _Dies the Fire_.

Dies the Fire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## starseed (Aug 7, 2012)

Thanks so much for your responses. 

Basically, I'm writing a zombie apocalypse/alien invasion story in which the alien invaders launch a zombie virus attack on every major city on earth (not only "major cities" actually--all cities with a population over 100,000), render the power, satellite and phone grid useless and then sit back and wait while the population of earth destroys itself.

I'm trying to decide how hard I can make it for my characters while still allowing the story to play out. The story involves a group of people getting from New Mexico to Tennessee, and in order to do that they need to be transported somehow (which of course requires fuel--or an insanely long walk). I am debating having them either fly and crash in a plane, or possibly drive the rest of the way in a stolen car, provided that they could get gas somehow. Now that I know there's a way, what I want to do can work, so thanks!



> If  every major city on earth was attacked, you can bet your sweet bippy  that all the major Governments would know the attack was coming, way  before the teeming multitudes knew, and would have all gone into hiding  in their bomb-proof, radiation-proof mountain bunkers, where they’d just  wait for the storm to blow over, then come out under a white flag.



Not in this case. This is supposed to be an alien attack by a civilization that is far more advanced than us, they were able to easily cloak their approach. 



> You want to remove the cap of a pressurised underground fuel tank with an _iron _bar? One spark and they'll need to find the remains of your teeth to make positive identification.



What would be the better way?


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## garza (Aug 7, 2012)

A bronze bar. No sparks.


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## alanmt (Aug 7, 2012)

If many people are killed, many cars will be sitting around with gas in their tanks.  It is easy to siphon gas from a tank in a vehicle.  Motorcycles get incredible gas mileage, btw.


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## starseed (Aug 7, 2012)

Oh yes, a lot of people will have been killed so there will definitely be the gas-in-vehicle option. I just needed a few other possibilities for certain scenarios where getting gas directly from a vehicle wasn't really working. Knowing that the military has its own stores of fuel in case of an invasion is helpful too.

And thanks Garza! I will put that in my story somehow. And Terry D, thanks for the suggestion. That story looks great! I just ordered the book on amazon. Can't wait to read it.


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## Nickleby (Aug 14, 2012)

starseed said:


> If every major city on earth was attacked, and there was no power and no phone communication anywhere on Earth, how long do you think it would take for governments to organize relief and/or military efforts, and where would they focus them?
> 
> ... How would they talk to each other?



Depends on how the phones are cut. An electromagnetic pulse (from, say, dirty bombs) would scramble any unprotected computer chip. The military uses _protected_ computer chips known as MilSpec (military specifications). If you want the armed forces, and nobody else, to be active, that's one way to go.


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## Cran (Aug 14, 2012)

The best way to tap into the underground fuel storage tanks at roadside fuel stations is to commandeer an empty fuel tanker - if you find a full one, forget the station for now; they have the right tools for removing the surface cover, opening the storage tank cap, and fitting the locking hose to the storage tank. Fit the other end to your (manual or generator powered) pump inlet, and a second locking hose to the outlet. The other end of the second hose goes into the top portal of the tanker you've already taken. Fill the tanker. If you're not in a hurry and want more, find another tanker and repeat.


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## starseed (Aug 17, 2012)

Thank you! The protected computer chip thing is very helpful.


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## starseed (Aug 19, 2012)

"Dies the fire" is a great read so far. Right up my alley and remarkably similar to my own book... without the zombies and horrifying violence, lol. His writing style is similar too so it's just a pleasure to read! I found it interesting that in that scenario, their guns don't even work. Whatever happened somehow made gunpowder stop working? Cars and airplanes too. So crazy.

In my story, I still need cars and airplanes to work so my people can get around. Walking across American would take a long time. And they are going to need weapons, too. I think I'm going to make it so that the main power grids, satellites, phone lines, and cell phones all stop working, but keep the guns and fossil fuel powered stuff.


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## grimrose (Oct 20, 2012)

I would wait a least 2-3 days but watch carefully.....then go loot for guns and ammo (also boes and arrows.... these can be limitless) then loot a place like kmart or ma and pop store (cause everybody already looted the grocery store most likely) but i would also buy vegetable seeds and find a book on edible plants if possible.... .make my way to a secluded area and set up base then figure stuff from there...also it would be plausible to loot a outdoor store because they would have rations there and pills to make water safe.


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## grimrose (Oct 20, 2012)

grimrose said:


> I would wait a least 2-3 days but watch carefully.....then go loot for guns and ammo (also boes and arrows.... these can be limitless) then loot a place like kmart or ma and pop store (cause everybody already looted the grocery store most likely) but i would also buy vegetable seeds and find a book on edible plants if possible.... .make my way to a secluded area and set up base then figure stuff from there...also it would be plausible to loot a outdoor store because they would have rations there and pills to make water safe.



Ooops meant bows and loot seeds...lmao


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## Morkonan (Oct 20, 2012)

starseed said:


> A couple questions:
> 
> If all the power were to go out permanently (other than off grid) would there still be some way for people to get the fuel from the gas stations?



As others have said, you can pump fuel using manual pumps or gas/diesel generators. But, without ongoing production and distribution, such fuel stores would not last very long. They'd probably be exhausted within a week. If local governments quickly organized to ration and protect such fuel stores, they might last a little longer.



> If every major city on earth was attacked, and there was no power and no phone communication anywhere on Earth, how long do you think it would take for governments to organize relief and/or military efforts, and where would they focus them?



That depends on the government. For the United States, action would be immediate. The US would be placed under "Martial Law", providing the federal government with immediate and full authority to act to preserve the integrity of the nation, provide for its defense, maintain its local sovereignty and to protect the people. The first efforts would likely be geared towards communication. Emergency broadcast systems would be activated, repeater stations would be set up, etc.. In other words, the first effort would be establishing effective radio communication.



> Where would they get the gas to power their vehicles?



The United States has an Emergency Reserve supply of petroleum. Originally set up to fuel the Navy in times of crisis, these reserves would be released for military and emergency vehicles and for generators. But, only for government use. For others, diesel engines can run on a wide variety of fuels. Any liquid that combusts at a sufficiently low temperature can be used in a diesel engine. Cooking oil can be used directly, for instance, to power a diesel engine. But, gasoline stores would quickly run out of processed fuel - It's likely that none of our major refineries would be in operation. 



> How would they talk to each other?



The preferred method would be radio.



> If the power went out at your house and never came back on, what would you do? (no phones or internet either) How long would you wait before you would try and go somewhere to see what was going on? Where would you go?
> 
> 
> ...I appreciate your thoughts.



How would I know it never came on?



In other words, there are going to be plenty of people who attempt to "wait it out" with the expectation that power and services will be restored. For myself, I would likely have to make such a judgement based on the conditions. Since there's no mention of why this catastrophe has occurred or what the cause could be, I can't answer this question.

Edit-Added reply

I see that this is due to an alien invasion. I would attempt to get what information I could regarding regions where they were not active. I would probably make my way to the nearest military base and volunteer.

There's only so many corners you can paint people into. A constant reduction of survival options isn't realistic, just FYI. If something like that is what you're thinking about, then you have to judge whether or not your setting is consistent and believable. For instance, if aliens have attacked the world and have used zombies to invade every major city, their power is already supreme. In fact, all they have to do is have one spaceship capable of space travel and they can drop rocks on our head until we're all dead...


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## PSFoster (Oct 25, 2012)

In The Stand, Stephen King addressed a lot of these concerns.


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## Ethan (Oct 26, 2012)

If the power outage is the result of E.M.P. following nuclear explosion, the need for gas is a mute point. The E.M.P. will destroy all and any electronic equipment (Car Fuel injection, On board computer etc) and most electrics.  Depending on the scale of the assumed attack, there would be no need for gas apart from fuel for fire. Also consider that radio and T.V. station equipment would be nullified as would telephones, both hard wired and mobile. In the event of several nuclear strikes in the U.K. for example, there would be NO electrical or electronic equipment functioning apart from E.M.P. shielded equipment (Most Military equipment is) However the Police equipment in U.K.and I would assume the same in the U.S.A., is not shielded against E.M.P.


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## egpenny (Oct 29, 2012)

Don't forget horses for transport, they can cut across country, don't need to follow the roads.  A little grass, or feed, and little water and away you go.  Also I've seen pickup truck beds made into wagons and pulled by horses or donkeys in other countries.  There are a lot of people in the US that have the knowledge of how to revert back to the good old days before the auto and electricity.  Good luck on your story.


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## Winston (Oct 29, 2012)

If you're going for a short story, the MC can see all the difficulties that face them, and decide early on to just give up.

Suicide, or perhaps selling oneself into bondage?  Solves all those nasty logistical problems.


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## Staff Deployment (Oct 29, 2012)

Terry D said:


> For a good look at this scenario read S.M. Stirling's _Dies the Fire_.
> 
> Dies the Fire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



For a _really, really horrendously terrible_ look at this scenario, watch J.J. Abram's "Revolution."

On second thought don't watch it.


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## Towerguy (Nov 12, 2012)

first thing I'd be doing is getting family together, then stocking up on whatever food I had. Next is weapons for defense, I live in a country where guns are not so readily available but I do know where I can lay hands on them if needed, so first off would be the machetes and knives etc in my garage. After that it would be moving it all to a defensible position - somewhere out of the city, initially by car if available or by foot if not. Once clear of town I would be looking for the first place I could find Horses and tackle. No fuel required except what grows along the way and water.

Other things to look out for and consider are what towns, cities etc are nearby and along the way and what facilities are in those locations. I am presently working on a 'survivor type' scenario and have done quite a bit of looking into this sort of situation. There is a good documentary on the discovery channnel and can be found on the internet that shows "what happens if humans suddenly dissappeared". The biggest threat is from the loss of power and what it does to the modern industrial complex. Coolant to industrial gas supplies and holding tanks etc resulting in large areas of toxic gases floating around the place. Even worse is what happens when the backup generators supplying power to the nuclear waste cooling ponds finally runs out. No power - no cooling - rapid evaporation of the coolant water - rapid heating - very 'dirty' fire - radiation, death, destruction etc etc etc.
What a wonderful thought.


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