# How Many Syllables In Fire?



## musichal (Jun 10, 2015)

How many syllables do you think comprise each of these words?

fire, hire, tire, sire, dire


[I thought one.]


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## Sonata (Jun 10, 2015)

I think it depends on whether you speak British or 'mercan English.

As a native British speaker to me they are single syllable words unless you slurr or whatever, in which cas I am sorry as I speak British English not 'merrican. 

Not much use to you am I.


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## TJ1985 (Jun 10, 2015)

Sonata said:


> Not much use to you am I.



Quite the contrary Sonata. This strikes me as a question of accent, locality, and exposure to other accents. It takes a large and varied sample group to see a "vote" lean one way or the other.


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## popsprocket (Jun 10, 2015)

In Australian English I'd say they could really be either... but I'd be more comfortable if they were two syllables each.

The way we were taught to discern the number of syllables in school tells me that this might be a grey area.


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## stevesh (Jun 10, 2015)

One, but I often hear them pronounced as 'fie-yer'.


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## PiP (Jun 10, 2015)

Look at this from a different viewpoint. When writing poetry, how many syllables would you count for fire? Because not only does it affect the meter  but also the rhyme.

I count 'fire' as two syllables. One syllable is 'fye'

Fire rhymes with buyer. 'Fi' Rhymes with 'bye'


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## musichal (Jun 10, 2015)

Sonata said:


> I think it depends on whether you speak British or 'mercan English.
> 
> As a native British speaker to me they are single syllable words unless you slurr or whatever, in which cas I am sorry as I speak British English not 'merrican.
> 
> Not much use to you am I.





TJ1985 said:


> Quite the contrary Sonata. This strikes me as a question of accent, locality, and exposure to other accents. It takes a large and varied sample group to see a "vote" lean one way or the other.




I think we are overstating regionalism here.  I was raised in Mississippi, where one-syllable words are but rumor, yet I thought these one-syllable words.  On the other hand, a lot of folks from my state might well wonder what all this fuss is about, "It's one syllable, fire, just like car, or tar.  They rhyme."


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## Darkkin (Jun 10, 2015)

One, at least according to my dictionary.  The long eye sound of the i, softening the harsher edges of the opening consonants.  The e, swallowed by the r, basically becomes silent after lending its voice to the i.  There is not enough edge on any of the letters to constitute a true second syllable, so they seem to default to one.


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## PiP (Jun 10, 2015)

I'm curious. How many syllables does 'individual' have?


Perhaps us poetry bods need to go back to basics and agree the calorie count before eating the full meal.

Oooh... got it. *happy dance* Senior brainwave alert...

check out
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/individual?s=t


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## musichal (Jun 10, 2015)

five


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## Gamer_2k4 (Jun 11, 2015)

Ordinarily "fire" would have two syllables, but there are times when it's pronounced as though it had one.  In this piece from Handel's Messiah, for example, it's given anywhere from one (at 3:52 or so, sounding like "fahr") to about twelve, though of course the latter is due to intentionally drawing it out.  For poetic purposes, I'd say "fire" has two syllables.


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## Sonata (Jun 11, 2015)

PiP said:


> I'm curious. How many syllables does 'individual' have?




If I am not sure of something I say it out loud and count on my fingers.

In - di- vi- du - al

But I think it depends on where a person was born/grew up and the general accent where that was.


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## Bloggsworth (Jun 11, 2015)

One syllable, two vowels - Does this really need a thread?


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## Terry D (Jun 11, 2015)

All you have to do is look at the dictionary definition of fire, any dictionary, the syllabification of the word is right there. Fire has one syllable.


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## Sonata (Jun 11, 2015)

Accent.

This is not how I pronounce "fire"

[video=youtube;Y47G-Wa4qfs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y47G-Wa4qfs[/video]


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## Kevin (Jun 11, 2015)

> I'd say "fire" has two syllables.


 Fah-yer - see? one syllable  The grammar corps have spoken... like heil.

Edit: One is an obsolete description. I'm sorry, but in modern English all those words have two syllables. 'Heil' in German is one syllable (I guess) but we don't speak German. I don't care what the books say. My tongue and all the newscasters I've ever seen say it as two syllables. The nearest I can come to a one syllable, two-sound (as in distinct vowel-sounds) is Dear, Near, Beer, etc.  Fire, dire, sire, liar are all spoken, in this country at least, as two syllables, two distinct vowel sounds.  And what's funny is our depictions of the 'Hoity-toity' have them saying things like 'Dee-uh' for Dear, in an exaggerated, two-syllable manner.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Jun 11, 2015)

PiP said:


> I'm curious. How many syllables does 'individual' have?



That's one's not so bad, since I think most people pronounce it correctly.  But what about "temperature" or "interesting"?


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## shadowwalker (Jun 11, 2015)

Bloggsworth said:


> One syllable, two vowels - Does this really need a thread?



Exactly. Words don't change the number of syllables based on region or pronunciation. If that were the case, one could argue that "presumably" has five syllables (pre-sum-a-ba-bly).

Seriously, does anyone look at dictionaries any more?


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## musichal (Jun 11, 2015)

Bloggsworth said:


> One syllable, two vowels - Does this really need a thread?





Terry D said:


> All you have to do is look at the dictionary definition of fire, any dictionary, the syllabification of the word is right there. Fire has one syllable.





Kevin said:


> Fah-yer - see? one syllable  The grammar corps have spoken... like heil.




The reason this became a thread is because of the poets here writing etherees and other poems which require counting syllables.  I myself thought, fire and hire are one syllable words, so why the debate.  Yes, the dictionary backs up the one-syllable position, but...

if one digs a little further he finds that most people actually do pronounce the word as two syllables.  People point out that it can be a bit difficult, and weird, consciously saying it as one.  Furthermore, the subject turns to triphthongs, words which include three vowel sounds pronounced smoothly in two syllables.  Therefore, officially fire, hire and other ire words are one-syllable words pronounced in two syllables.

One authority opined that when rhyming fire with hire, they are one-syllable words, but when rhyming fire with higher, they are two-syllable.

The question remains then whether the words should be counted as one or two syllables in poems where that matters.  At first I thought one-syllable as officially noted in the dictionary, but now I'm convinced that it is poet's choice.  If the words are most commonly pronounced by English speaking peoples around the globe as two-syllable words as is claimed, does this validate counting them as such for poetry?  The lines are not quite as black and white as might be initially thought.  What is your opinion?


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## Kevin (Jun 11, 2015)

Oh Plea-uz... Language evolves, My-uh De-uh, as do the accepted forms and definitions. The majority don't look at dictionaries, they just talk, and when the majority say it in a certain way, it is what it is.


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## Terry D (Jun 11, 2015)

The number of syllables in any word varies by its pronunciation (look up the definition of syllable). Pronounced as it is written, tem-per-a-ture has four, but I've heard it pronounced (incorrectly) with three -- temp-a-chure -- or even just two -- temp-chure. If we are looking for a 'standard' number of syllables we should use the number associated with the definition/pronunciation in our dictionary-of-choice. If syllable count is an issue at all.

Unless we are all such masters of language that dictionaries are extinct.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Jun 11, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> If that were the case, one could argue that "presumably" has five syllables (pre-sum-a-ba-bly).



If that's how you're pronouncing "presumably," you're saying it wrong, plain and simple.  People pronounce "realtor" as reel-ah-tur and "mischievous" as mis-chee-vee-us, but improperly adding syllables doesn't change the syllable count of the word any more than misspelling a word changes how it's supposed to be spelled.


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## Terry D (Jun 11, 2015)

musichal said:


> The reason this became a thread is because of the poets here writing etherees and other poems which require counting syllables.  I myself thought, fire and hire are one syllable words, so why the debate.  Yes, the dictionary backs up the one-syllable position, but...
> 
> if one digs a little further he finds that most people actually do pronounce the word as two syllables.  People point out that it can be a bit difficult, and weird, consciously saying it as one.  Furthermore, the subject turns to triphthongs, words which include three vowel sounds pronounced smoothly in two syllables.  Therefore, officially fire, hire and other ire words are one-syllable words pronounced in two syllables.
> 
> ...



That point is absolutely right. Syllabification is determined by the sound of the word when spoken, so it is the voice the writer is using which determines how may syllables the word has. Not just in poetry. The pace and rhythm of a line of prose can be just as dependent on syllable count.


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## Bloggsworth (Jun 11, 2015)

Kevin said:


> Fah-yer - see? one syllable  The grammar corps have spoken... like heil.
> 
> Edit: One is an obsolete description. I'm sorry, but in modern English all those words have two syllables. 'Heil' in German is one syllable (I guess) but we don't speak German. I don't care what the books say. My tongue and all the newscasters I've ever seen say it as two syllables. The nearest I can come to a one syllable, two-sound (as in distinct vowel-sounds) is Dear, Near, Beer, etc.  Fire, dire, sire, liar are all spoken, in this country at least, as two syllables, two distinct vowel sounds.  And what's funny is our depictions of the 'Hoity-toity' have them saying things like 'Dee-uh' for Dear, in an exaggerated, two-syllable manner.



Please introduce me to the people who would light a firee....., maybe one of their hirees with the diree skin condition, or perhaps some one who keeps a diree yes siree they do; well, that is until they tiree - or is that a place in Ireland.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Jun 11, 2015)

Bloggsworth said:


> Please introduce me to the people who would light a firee....., maybe one of their hirees with the diree skin condition, or perhaps some one who keeps a diree yes siree they do; well, that is until they tiree - or is that a place in Ireland.



The pronunciation swaps the sounds of the 'r' and the 'e' (fi-ur), in the same way that "theatre" is pronounced thee-ah-tur, not thee-ah-tree.


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## Kevin (Jun 11, 2015)

"What is your emergency, Sir?"
 "I need the fah department... we have a fah." 
"'Far', Sir? Did you mean 'far'?" 
"I said fir." 
"'Fur', Sir?" 
"Ma'am, this is an emergency."
 "I understand, Sir, but I don't speak Canadian, or_...(is there anyone here from the South? I can't understand this guy. He's asking for a 'fir tree' or something)"_


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## aj47 (Jun 11, 2015)

One.  It rhymes with purr.


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## Loveabull (Jun 11, 2015)

Unless you're from the deep South then you can pull it all the way to three syllables fahhh ay errr


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## shadowwalker (Jun 12, 2015)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> If that's how you're pronouncing "presumably," you're saying it wrong, plain and simple.  People pronounce "realtor" as reel-ah-tur and "mischievous" as mis-chee-vee-us, but improperly adding syllables doesn't change the syllable count of the word any more than misspelling a word changes how it's supposed to be spelled.



Which was exactly my point. I've heard people pronounce presumably exactly that way - that doesn't change the actual number of syllables it has.

As to this evolving language thing, I'm getting so tired of hearing that, which seems to be every time someone wants to push their own incorrect useage. The dictionaries are constantly adding and revising, ensuring people can understand one another, and thus I will always turn to them as the final authority.


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## stevesh (Jun 12, 2015)

Now comes this morning's crossword puzzle:

Clue - Only one-syllable  state capital.

Answer - Pierre.


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## aj47 (Jun 12, 2015)

stevesh said:


> Now comes this morning's crossword puzzle:
> 
> Clue - Only one-syllable  state capital.
> 
> Answer - Pierre.



I was born there.  The city name is pronounced like "peer" and it is not the same as the French name that has the same spelling.

Wind can rhyme with tinned or kind, depending on which word you intend.


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## Bloggsworth (Jun 12, 2015)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> The pronunciation swaps the sounds of the 'r' and the 'e' (fi-ur), in the same way that "theatre" is pronounced thee-ah-tur, not thee-ah-tree.



Twaddle - You are conflating pronounciation with spelling. It matters not how they are pronounced, they still have only one syllable. Scots and some from northern England pronounce the L in film, sounding *Fillum*, but this does not mean that the word *film* instantly acquires a second syllable.


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## Terry D (Jun 12, 2015)

Syllables are all about how words sound. They are used in the dictionary definition of words to help with proper pronunciation. They are a part of speech, not of writing, so _how a word is pronounced will affect the number of syllables, _because they are units of _sound_, not of writing. The dictionary 'standard', I mentioned in my first reply to this thread, is based on the pronunciation chosen by the compiler of the dictionary; the 'proper' pronunciation as it were. Since nearly everyone varies from proper pronunciation to one degree or another based on region, dialect, education, and any number of other factors, the actual number of syllables in the spoken word can vary as in the many examples shown in this thread.

When syllables become important in writing, as they are in many poems, I believe the writer can determine the syllable count using narrative voice. In other words the reader will 'hear' the number of syllables which is consistent with the rhythm and pace of the work they are reading.  I think it's a lot like singing -- most accents and dialects disappear when a singer begins to sing. The pronunciation of the words is determined by the music and the manner in which the words interact. Just my thoughts.


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## musichal (Jun 12, 2015)

Terry D said:


> Syllables are all about how words sound. They are used in the dictionary definition of words to help with proper pronunciation. They are a part of speech, not of writing, so _how a word is pronounced will affect the number of syllables, _because they are units of _sound_, not of writing. The dictionary 'standard', I mentioned in my first reply to this thread, is based on the pronunciation chosen by the compiler of the dictionary; the 'proper' pronunciation as it were. Since nearly everyone varies from proper pronunciation to one degree or another based on region, dialect, education, and any number of other factors, the actual number of syllables in the spoken word can vary as in the many examples shown in this thread.
> 
> When syllables become important in writing, as they are in many poems, I believe the writer can determine the syllable count using narrative voice. In other words the reader will 'hear' the number of syllables which is consistent with the rhythm and pace of the work they are reading.  I think it's a lot like singing -- most accents and dialects disappear when a singer begins to sing. The pronunciation of the words is determined by the music and the manner in which the words interact. Just my thoughts.



I said that, too.  Sorta.  Not as well.  Clearly expressed.  Fully agree.


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## LeeC (Jun 12, 2015)

stevesh said:


> Now comes this morning's crossword puzzle:
> 
> Clue - Only one-syllable  state capital.
> 
> Answer - Pierre.



Damn you  Now the day's off to a bad start. I knew the answer, South Dakota being one state over from Wyoming and Oglala serving up the best steaks in the West. However I asked the wife, a crossword nut, who couldn't come up with the answer. When I told her she went ballistic refusing to accept. She's a New Englander of French descent, and their English is as screwed up as you hear across the pond


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## Kevin (Jun 12, 2015)

> It matters not how they are pronounced, they still have only one syllable.


 Really? That is a new way of thinking for me. I'd always thought that 'syllable' was a description of pronunciation. I'll have to research. Thank you.


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## Kevin (Jun 12, 2015)

> Answer - Pierre.


 Another example of a foreign word pronunciation. 'P'yaiiiiirrrrr...'   those lazy _Fwanks,_ refusing to say each letter... vowel, and then not bothering to  shut off the word at the proper moment. Sounds like spitting out my coffee. See, in American it's 'Pee-air', period. I'm reminded of good old Dez Moanees... those lazies dropping the 's' off the end; can't even be bothered to say the 'es' in the first word. And there it is, written out for them?!


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## Bloggsworth (Jun 12, 2015)

Kevin said:


> Really? That is a new way of thinking for me. I'd always thought that 'syllable' was a description of pronunciation. I'll have to research. Thank you.



Did you fail to read the whole post - I give you Film.


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## Kevin (Jun 12, 2015)

Why 'fil-m'? I mean, I don't understand that pronunciation, but does that make it 'incorrect'? 
Regardless, there are (however many people)... a preponderance of people saying the words _hire _and _higher_ in an indistinguishable manner. I posit that if_ hire_ rhymes with _fire_ (which it does in this hemisphere) and _hire _is spoken the same as _higher, higher _being the word_ high, _one syllable, with addition of_ '-er', _making it two syllables, then _hire _is two syllables, which, if it rhymes with_ fire _(which we say it does), makes _fire_ two syllables.


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## Kyle R (Jun 12, 2015)

http://www.howmanysyllables.com :encouragement:


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## Kevin (Jun 12, 2015)

> The dictionaries are constantly adding and revising, ensuring people can understand one another, and thus I will always turn to them as the final authority.


Yes, yes... and while we all admire your orthodoxy and adherence to _the good book_ (dictionary) and we all agree it is an indispensable tool etc. your words themselves offer a conundrum: "...are constantly adding and revising". 

So, how does one, when faced with contradictory evidence from one's own senses, i.e. what I hear around me and what comes from my own tongue (however common), ignore such, when my 'common' senses tell me something different from what I am told? Must I strictly adhere to these written dictates when they are "constantly revising", and despite my own ears? And when something is 'constantly revising' how can it be final? Granted, if I ever take a test where the question is asked  I will check the 'correct' answer, but must I believe it?


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## musichal (Jun 12, 2015)

Kevin said:


> Why 'fil-m'? I mean, I don't understand that pronunciation, but does that make it 'incorrect'?
> Regardless, there are (however many people)... a preponderance of people saying the words _hire _and _higher_ in an indistinguishable manner. I posit that if_ hire_ rhymes with _fire_ (which it does in this hemisphere) and _hire _is spoken the same as _higher, higher _being the word_ high, _one syllable, with addition of_ '-er', _making it two syllables, then _hire _is two syllables, which, if it rhymes with_ fire _(which we say it does), makes _fire_ two syllables.



It isn't quite that simple.  

Higher is, of course, two distinct syllables
Hire is one syllable pronounced as two, but not the same as higher;  it is a bit more subtle than that.

In poems, obviously, we use many slant rhymes.
Higher, Fire and Hire, etc. rhyme well, the latter two perfectly.

It is _very_ difficult to say 'hire' or 'fire' as one syllable; few do, though they may think/claim otherwise for this discussion.  Yes, hire and fire are considered one-syllable words, but in actual use... rarely.


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## Terry D (Jun 12, 2015)

musichal said:


> It isn't quite that simple.
> 
> Higher is, of course, two distinct syllables
> Hire is one syllable pronounced as two, but not the same as higher;  it is a bit more subtle than that.
> ...



Poetry question. When using a structure in which syllable count is proscribed -- haiku, senryu, etc. -- how do words like fire and hire count? As one, or as the two pronounced sounds?


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## Blade (Jun 12, 2015)

musichal said:


> It is _very_ difficult to say 'hire' or 'fire' as one syllable; few do, though they may think/claim otherwise for this discussion.  Yes, hire and fire are considered one-syllable words, but in actual use... rarely.



On the other hand if a person were to be instructed to pronounce it as one it would be easy. :encouragement:Therefore referring to a dictionary source would be advisable.


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## Harper J. Cole (Jun 12, 2015)

I think for contests on this site, e.g. the current Purple Pip etheree challenge, we should give a certain leeway where the dictionary says a certain number of syllables but pronunciation differs.


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## Bloggsworth (Jun 12, 2015)

Syllables aree, generally, counted as pronounced vowels only.


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## David Gordon Burke (Jun 12, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> Exactly. Words don't change the number of syllables based on region or pronunciation. If that were the case, one could argue that "presumably" has five syllables (pre-sum-a-ba-bly).
> Seriously, does anyone look at dictionaries any more?



With all due respect - did it occur to you just how elitist and racist that comment is?
Language is not a constant that is found in a dictionary.  It is a living and breathing entity that is ever changing and yes, culture and region have so much to do with it as do socio-economic factors, education etc.   
I would expect you to know that and as a writer have a bit of respect for it.  The only wrong and right is that percieved by the powers that be .... just as the blues was WRONG music back in the day.  
Are you going to tell us that Tupac wrote badly?  Sheesh.  
And as a note, as an English teacher it has been my experience that the majority of dictionaries are incorrect.  Dead wrong.  Definitions out of date or never used by the common man so what is the point?

David Gordon Burke


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## Gamer_2k4 (Jun 13, 2015)

David Gordon Burke said:


> With all due respect - did it occur to you just how elitist and racist that comment is?



Would it be elitist to insist on measuring cooking ingredients with cups and teaspoons, rather than "handfuls" and "pinches"? How about measuring a trip in miles rather than minutes? There's nothing elitist about being exact.

As for the racist comment, it should go without saying how ridiculous it that is.  If I went to Japan and tried to start speaking Japanese, my pronunciation would be atrocious.  Would the Japanese people I spoke with be "racist" because I'm saying their words with an American accent, or would I just be wrong in how I'm pronouncing them?

Different people say different words in different ways - that's a fact.  But it's also a fact that those pronunciations are often incorrect.  Elitism and racism imply prejudice; this is simply the rules of language being observed or ignored.


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## musichal (Jun 13, 2015)

With respect to all:  When pronounced _correctly_ 'fire' is said in two syllables, even though it is considered a one-syllable word.  The issue is not one of mispronunciation, as some try to claim.  It is not pronounced the same as 'higher', however;  they are subtly, but distinctively different (again, when both are pronounced correctly).

Say "fie" then say "fire."  That 'r' changes the vowel sound.  If you call 'fire' 'fie' then your pronunciation is wrong.


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## Kevin (Jun 13, 2015)

There is a prejudice in many sub-groups of English-speakers against the pronunciation of the 'r'. Often it is replaced we the 'uh' as in 'Moth_uh_ may I?', or 'aw'  as in 'Yes Son, you may take the ca_w_...'


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