# Could a crossbow kill someone at close range?



## Neo (Jan 17, 2013)

Just read "We Need To Talk About Kevin" and found out to my surprise that the kid used a crossbow in his "school shooting" and not a gun. Is that realistic or just artistic licence on Shriver's part? How powerful would a crossbow need to be (draw weight/feet-per-second(fps)) to be lethal at, say, 10-20 yards? I've read that "broadheads" to tip the bolts with would increase the damage any shot would deliver, but the lack of any crossbow-related murders in the news, ever, is leading me to believe they're no good for naughty purposes. I've had a dead book project sitting as a pile of notes in paper and on my computer for a couple of years which could benefit from this info. Being British I can't easily write guns into my UK-set books (we have the toughest guns laws on Earth) so this would be very handy for my story!


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## Sam (Jan 17, 2013)

Crossbows don't have any great pros over firearms, apart from being silenced and possessing an unending supply of ammunition, so I'd venture that's why you're not hearing about them on the six o'clock news. 

You can kill someone with a bow and arrow from 10-20 yards. Maybe even further depending on the quality of the bow and tip of the arrow. Considering that a crossbow generates more velocity than a bow and arrow, it's an almost-certainty you could kill someone with it at that distance, especially if you aim for the chest or head.


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## Ethan (Jan 17, 2013)

Any Bow has the capacity to kill. A longbow (Medieval) with a draw of around sixty five pounds could penetrate armour at 200 metres. although the crossbow has a higher projectile speed the bolt is lighter than an arrow and over distance will lose ft poundage. But to answer your question, yes a crossbow will kill at one hundred metres+,  any draw of twenty-thirty pounds will kill at close range, though most modern hunting crossbows have a draw of between 600 and 800 lbs. Hope this helps!


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## dolphinlee (Jan 17, 2013)

So you think that it is difficult to get a gun. The numbers of guns has been greatly reduced but they are still out there. There are still a few people murdered using guns every year. 

So if you get stuck with the crossbow idea you could use a handgun. Lots of soldiers (Northern Ireland, Iran, Iraq and Afganistan) brought souvenir guns back with them 

*Crossbows. *

This information is general. If I  wrote all the variables this would be pages long. 

Simple Crossbows are short range weapons. Their ideal killing range is less than 100m. Although the bolts can travel (and kill) much further.

*Draws* - Bows have different draws. 

150lb draw could kill a deer

175lb draw could kill a bear. 

BUT cocking the crossbow is hard work. Your user would have to be very strong to cock acrossbow with a 175lb pull. 

*Kill zone*

As Sam W pointed out you need the bolt to go through a place on the body that will kill instantly or at least demolish enough blood vessels so that the person bleeds out. 

*Broadheads*

These are designed to go in more easily, and do more damage

Average bolt makes a hole of approx. 0.8 cm

With broadhead the hole is approx. 2.54 cm

*Problem*

This is a one time fire weapon. So if you want to kill a few people quicly you might want to use a normal archery bow with broadhead arrows.  (Think Legolas)

If you need distance then there is always the compound bow.

Good luck with your story


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## Staff Deployment (Jan 20, 2013)

The chinese invented a rapid-fire crossbow, if I recall correctly.

You could also strap an explosive on the end of the bolt and use it to blow up vehicles like in Far Cry 2. Except for the fact that that's utterly ridiculous.

Man, I love crossbows. They're like bows but without the years and years of intensive training. It also gives some nice narrative tension, because it takes a minute or so to reload if you miss the first shot.


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## Brock (Jan 21, 2013)

Neo said:


> Just read "We Need To Talk About Kevin" and found out to my surprise that the kid used a crossbow in his "school shooting" and not a gun. Is that realistic or just artistic licence on Shriver's part? How powerful would a crossbow need to be (draw weight/feet-per-second(fps)) to be lethal at, say, 10-20 yards? I've read that "broadheads" to tip the bolts with would increase the damage any shot would deliver, but the lack of any crossbow-related murders in the news, ever, is leading me to believe they're no good for naughty purposes. I've had a dead book project sitting as a pile of notes in paper and on my computer for a couple of years which could benefit from this info. Being British I can't easily write guns into my UK-set books (we have the toughest guns laws on Earth) so this would be very handy for my story!



I shoot a 175 lb Horton compound crossbow.  I can tell you with out a doubt that it would kill someone deader than dead at close range.  I have shot deer ranging anywhere from 10 to 40 yards with it and the bolts usually go clean through.  I use the mechanical 'Rage' broadheads (as most do) that open up 1 1/2 inches at impact.  The new 'Rage Extreme' causes a 2 inch diameter entry wound.  I would rather be shot with a gun.  The bolts would kill even with practice field points.  There are a few in my back yard still stuck half way through good size trees that I haven't been able to remove.

The reason you don't hear much about crossbow homicides is because they aren't ideal for that.  They are ideal for getting one shot off at an unsuspecting dear.  The same would hold true with a person.  You would most likely only get one shot because if you missed you would have to cock the crossbow (which is not the easiest thing to do), pull another bolt out of your quiver, load it in the crossbow and then take the automatic safety off before firing again.

But can crossbows kill at close range?  When talking about one shot, like I said:  I would rather be shot with a gun.

Here is a youtube video showing a massive black bear being dropped with a crossbow.  Imagine if this was a person.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_Zd5JtHUpo


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## dale (Jan 21, 2013)

Neo said:


> Just read "We Need To Talk About Kevin" and found out to my surprise that the kid used a crossbow in his "school shooting" and not a gun. Is that realistic or just artistic licence on Shriver's part? How powerful would a crossbow need to be (draw weight/feet-per-second(fps)) to be lethal at, say, 10-20 yards? I've read that "broadheads" to tip the bolts with would increase the damage any shot would deliver, but the lack of any crossbow-related murders in the news, ever, is leading me to believe they're no good for naughty purposes. I've had a dead book project sitting as a pile of notes in paper and on my computer for a couple of years which could benefit from this info. Being British I can't easily write guns into my UK-set books (we have the toughest guns laws on Earth) so this would be very handy for my story!



actually that recent college school shooting in wyoming was committed with a crossbow. 3 dead.

Two school shootings within hours of each other - Rochester K-12 Education | Examiner.com


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## jedellion (Jan 22, 2013)

I am an archer, crafted my own longbows and arrows. I know people in my club who compete internationally and can hit a gold at 120 yards in light winds consistently. 

at 10-20 yards a decently heavy  bow could punch an arrow right through someone. 

Agincourt my friends. 

Crossbows have a lot of punch at short range. The damage tapers off faster than a longbow.  Modern Compound bows are ridiculously powerful 

arrow vs armour - YouTube

This is a 35 lb compound bow, which is LIGHT!!!

Warbow vs steel breastplate

Breastplate Vs Warbows - YouTube

so... could a bow kill someone? 

Are you kidding me!


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## OWenDavis (Jan 24, 2013)

I think the problem would be more the time it takes to reload...


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## Winston (Feb 3, 2013)

Staff Deployment said:


> The Chinese invented a rapid-fire crossbow, if I recall correctly...



The Chinese Chu-Ko-No had a magazine and could fire ten bolts in twenty seconds.  While not as powerful as other crossbows, the sheer volume of fire would eventually find it's mark.  In fact, they were used by Chinese militia as late as the Boxer Rebellion in the early 20th century.

Other crossbows do require a degree of strength to cock and load.  This is why some were developed with a windlass (which adds to the weight and complexity / cost).  The trade off is a lot more power.  As noted, amour-defeating power.

In many ways, crossbows are not just the equal of most modern firearms, but superior.  The big (pun alert) drawback is that crossbows are bulky.  I've been some places with my M-16 where it got caught on everything.  The M60 machine gun was worse.  I couldn't imagine "beating the bush" with a crossbow.

(BTW: A boy recently killed his mom with a .22 rifle. People are more fragile than we'd like to think.)


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## Ethan (Feb 4, 2013)

JUST A LITTLE PIECE i CAME ACROSS RECENTLY AND THOUGHT YOU MIGHT FIND IT AS INTERESTING AS i DID, THE INSULTING TWO FINGERED SALUTE ORIGINATED IN FRANCE. IT WAS  CUSTOMARY OF THE FRENCH ARMIES TO CUT SEVER THE FINGERS OF CAPTURED LONGBOW ARCHERS. THUS WHEN FACING THE FRENCH THE ARCHERS WOULD 'SHOW' THE TWO FINGERS TO THE ENEMY. 

p.s. I KNOW THAT W.C. USED IT AS A SIGN FOR VICTORY!


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## Winston (Feb 4, 2013)

Ethan said:


> p.s. I KNOW THAT W.C. USED IT AS A SIGN FOR VICTORY!



I kinda thought that it was an inventive way to tell your adversaries to 'Get lost" I.e. W.C. to Hitler "I still got my bow fingers.  We're gonna use them to put a BIG HURT on ya..."


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## Neo (Feb 6, 2013)

Seen a vid online where a bloke tests broadheads against field points at point-blank-range against I think it was a phone book. Penetration was a bit laughable - in the comments section he says something about crossbows being better over longer distances rather than at point-blank range. Very odd!


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## Neo (Feb 6, 2013)

Actually, given all the evidence, and considering all arguments, I think there is indeed a reason why crossbows are not used by crooks very much - they may be lethal but they're also cumbersome and more trouble than they're worth. Lionel Shriver was being a little bit creative with her writing when she gave Kevin a crossbow. My MCs will have to acquire a gun somehow. Maybe a crossbow can be used to facilitate their acquisition of guns? I'm not sure yet. Thanks for everyone's input!


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## Lewdog (Feb 6, 2013)

Hey even after firing your first...and last bolt, you can always use the crossbow as a club.


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## Neo (Feb 12, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> Hey even after firing your first...and last bolt, you can always use the crossbow as a club.



I love your avatar


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## Outiboros (Feb 20, 2013)

I own a pistol crossbow myself, one of only a puny 30 lbs draw weight, but I can tell you those bolts would go straight to the bone (and no, officer, I've never tried it). Accuracy is utter crap, though.

What I wanted to say is this - crossbows aren't at all silent. Sure, they're far from actual gunfire, but they produce a noisy twack when they shoot. It won't alert a neighbourhood, but it isn't exactly silent either.


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## DPVP (Feb 28, 2013)

Outiboros said:


> I own a pistol crossbow myself, one of only a puny 30 lbs draw weight, but I can tell you those bolts would go straight to the bone (and no, officer, I've never tried it). Accuracy is utter crap, though.
> 
> What I wanted to say is this - crossbows aren't at all silent. Sure, they're far from actual gunfire, but they produce a noisy twack when they shoot. It won't alert a neighbourhood, but it isn't exactly silent either.



this is affected by design a lot. 

maybe an option for the OP would be to use a compound bow. this gives you lots of power, more range, and can have sights. Also Compound bows can be very quite.


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## WechtleinUns (Mar 2, 2013)

A cross-bow could be lethal, given a proper amount of preparation, and depending widely on the type and style of cross-bow used. In general, however, the amount of force needed to load a cross-bow by hand is probably too much for your average teenager to supply. Unless he's built like a body-builder, he would need a pulley-load system in order to actually load the cross-bow.

It takes between 2 to 3 minutes to load a cross-bow bolt using a pulley-load, so loading the bolt right before the crime would unrealistic. Assuming he loaded the bolt at home, and took the bow to school, he would have just one shot. At 10 yards, the bolt would be too fast for evasion. At 20 yards, the bolt would be too fast for evasion, but only if the aim was true. For every yard after 20, accuracy would drop drastically, and chances of evasion would increase inversely proportional to that drop.

I have a hard time believing that the kid would choose a crossbow, even assuming he couldn't get his hands on a gun. A wooden axe-handle(minus the actual axe-head), if wielded properly, could kill instantly and repeatedly. If guns are indeed so scare, then he would have much more success with blunt instruments.


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## Angelwing (Mar 2, 2013)

Am I missing something here, or is it ridiculous to assume an arrow couldn't kill someone like a bullet, at the same close range, like across a room? 

I mean seriously, as a previous poster brought up, Agincourt. If you can shoot through armor at a couple hundred yards and kill (or was it meters), you can sure as heck kill someone at twenty who does or doesn't have armor, with the same shot. 

Also, as for reloading, while researching English longbowmen, I read that they could fire something like 4 volleys in 10 seconds, I believe it was! And with a certain arrowhead, could penetrate a thick hardwood plank.


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## WechtleinUns (Mar 2, 2013)

Definitely, Angelwing. You are correct. English Longbow men were remarkably skilled with the long-bow, and the best bowmen in the ancient world could pull off amazing feats, like ten shots before the first shot hit the ground. At the same time, to become that proficient with a long-bow, or a cross-bow would take much training. With the advent of the gun, professional archers have dwindled somewhat, mostly because of the lack of training needed in the case of a firearm (at least, comparative to that of a cross-bow).

Then again, I have not read the book. The manner in which Kevin utilizes his  cross-bow could be very much realistic. Although, I do question the sincerity of the author. If writing a book about a school "shooting", it seems strange to throw such a strange wrench into an already complex issue. The fact that most mass shootings are done with guns and not bows seems to indicate artistic license on the part of the author, or just trying to get the reader with a gimmick.

I don't honestly know.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 2, 2013)

Neo said:


> Seen a vid online where a bloke tests broadheads against field points at point-blank-range against I think it was a phone book. Penetration was a bit laughable - in the comments section he says something about crossbows being better over longer distances rather than at point-blank range. Very odd!


This is a guess, but I know a longbow arrow distorts considerably in the first few feet of flight before settling down and spinning. It is a result of all the thrust being applied to the rear.


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## Brock (Mar 2, 2013)

This is my current crossbow.  It's a Horton Ultra-lite Express with a 175lb draw.  I have been following this thread off-and-on since it began.  I am not trying to sound like an arrogant expert on this subject, but I have owned crossbows since I was 15 years old -- both compounds and recurves.  From my experience hunting, a crossbow is equally effective at killing than a gun is, if not more.  If you are shot with a crossbow in a vital area, your chances of survival are slim.

I have never been 





> built like a body-builder


 or 





> have needed a pulley-load system in order to actually load


any cross-bow, and I have successfully cocked them since I was a teenager.  I never weighed more than 165 pounds in my teenage years.  If you look at my bow you will see where you place your foot to hold the bow down for leverage when cocking.  If you use this and pull up on the string with correct form, you don't have to be as strong as what you may think.  At first it may feel like giving birth, but it gets easier.  A cocking device will give you a truer shot due to less deviation when drawing the string back, however.

Crossbows have deadly accuracy at short and long range.  This will depend on the shooter and how familiar he or she is with the weapon.  I can hit an apple no problem at fifty yards, but would be hesitant to take a shot at a deer at that range unless conditions and the shooting path was ideal.

A crossbow would undoubtedly kill at short and long range.  I have witnessed it on several occasions.  Would a crossbow kill at point blank range?  This depends on your interpretation of "point blank."  If the bow is allowed to fully release -- meaning, all the force is released in to the arrow before it hits its target -- then yes.

I can load my bow and shoot it in approximately 3-4 seconds, and so can most people who are familiar with one.  This still does not make a crossbow ideal for a public attack, but in the right hands it could definitely get the job done.


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## Neo (Mar 5, 2013)

Brock said:


> View attachment 4340
> 
> This is my current crossbow.  It's a Horton Ultra-lite Express with a 175lb draw.  I have been following this thread off-and-on since it began.  I am not trying to sound like an arrogant expert on this subject, but I have owned crossbows since I was 15 years old -- both compounds and recurves.  From my experience hunting, a crossbow is equally effective at killing than a gun is, if not more.  If you are shot with a crossbow in a vital area, your chances of survival are slim.
> 
> ...



Thanks for this reply! I must say, when a question is asked, it's really an "arrogant expert" you need to answer it! :encouragement: Thank you for your information. So basically a 175lb crossbow can kill at short, medium and even long ranges although "point blank" range is a bit of a grey area? From what I can tell in We Need To Talk About Kevin, his reload procedure isn't really mentioned during the massacre. The book also states that he carried "hundreds" of arrows (yes, crossbows use bolts, not arrows, it's Shriver's word not mine) and appears to fire them rapidly and at will at his targets, causing mostly injuries. Having read the replies on this thread and done my own research, it seems that Lionel Shriver probably has no experience with crossbows or even basic knowledge of them, and more or less every aspect of the crossbow massacre in her novel is artistic license. 

Even with lots of practice, the process of reloading a crossbow would be cumbersome and time-consuming, as would carrying everything around. Maybe if I had three characters in my own novel, each with crossbows, it would cancel this out but to be honest, then my novel would just read like Kevin on steroids. I don't want to write something that reads like a cash-in "I wish I'd wrote that so I wrote this instead" novel.

Three positives have come out of this thread. One, it seems crossbows aren't regular murder weapons because they're not that practical, which means I've ruled out using them in my own novel. Two, they do seem cool as boy's toys, and I may buy one, although only for use against inanimate objects! Three, I've learned loads about crossbows in case there is a zombie apocalypse.


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## tabasco5 (Mar 25, 2013)

FYI... Man killed father in Wyoming bow-and-arrow attack


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