# Is it me or do plot holes sometimes help a story play better?



## ironpony (Jan 15, 2019)

I'm writing a screenplay and I was told I had some plot holes in my story which I changed such as in for example, one of the villains in court, decides to pull a rabbit out of his hat and present a witness that gets him freed of all charges, and turns the prosecution's case on it's head.  The plot hole being why did he wait until court to bring this witness, why not do it, after he is arrested to clear him, especially since waiting till court  would look more suspicious to the judge, etc.


Or another one was, why would the villain keep the macguffin buried in a secret burial spot, where the police wouldn't need a warrant to dig up and use, as oppose to hiding it in a bank safe deposit box, where it would be much more tough for the police to get at, etc.

I have more plot holes, but those are just examples of what I mean.  After changing the plot holes, and putting the script away for a while, I look at it again with fresher eyes, and I feel like the story just played better with the plot holes maybe.  Like sure the holes are out, but I feel like the suspenseful unraveling of things is gone, in favor or a less suspenseful, more realistic unravel, but not sure if that's good.

I did some research on plot holes and in writing, and in movies, since I tend to use movies as an example, since it's a screenplay.  I came across this video essay on plot holes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9HivyjAKlc&t=684s

And I wonder if the guy in the video is right.  Do plot holes actually matter really?


----------



## luckyscars (Jan 15, 2019)

I think you're confusing plot holes with "shit that doesn't matter".

Most books and especially movies have a bunch of plot holes if your definition of plot holes is "this isn't something that seems plausible if it were occurring in real life". That comes down to suspension of disbelief. Those are not plot holes, though.

A plot hole is, by definition, something that is noticeable and problematic. If suspension of disbelief and overall credibility is harmed, it's a plot hole. If it isn't, it's not. How can you tell which is which? Competency.


----------



## ironpony (Jan 15, 2019)

Okay thanks.  So if someone tells me that I have plot holes then, they are not looking too hard then likely, it is likely something that is harming the suspension of disbelief then?  How do you tell by competency though?


----------



## Olly Buckle (Jan 15, 2019)

> And I wonder if the guy in the video is right. Do plot holes actually matter really?


 Probably not from the examples you gave, remember the people who read your work were probably looking for a good comment to make, your average reader looking for entertainment might think of it, but if you have written the story up well they will be able to forget he could have said earlier, or whatever it is, because that is not part of the story they are into. People write stuff all the time that is full of impossible stuff, like boy wizards, or unicorns and dragons, and nobody turns a hair, why should they in a story that is ninety nine percent bang in line with the real world, tell them convincingly that's what happened and they will believe it, for the moment while they are reading anyway, and that is what counts.


----------



## ironpony (Jan 15, 2019)

Oh okay, well I can leave my story the way it is for now, and finish the next draft then get more feedback to see if others agree that they are actual plot holes, if that's best.


----------



## Olly Buckle (Jan 16, 2019)

I would say, don't 'prompt' your readers. You will probably get a more direct and honest assessment if you simply give them the ms and listen to comments without questions when they give it back. Even 'Any comment' will elicit something from most people. They then feel they should have a comment and look for something to say they might have simply passed over otherwise.


----------



## ironpony (Jan 16, 2019)

Yeah I guess when I ask them if there are any plot holes in this section, that's not good to ask them to look for, right?


----------



## Olly Buckle (Jan 16, 2019)

If you want a straight response don't give any clues, people are more socially aware than even they know. Imagine you gave no clues, you didn't say anything more than 'Here, read this', and they give it back, they say nothing, you write it off as 'no comment', because even if you only say 'Any good?' or 'No good?' it will influence his reply. You are best off with strangers reading it.


----------



## ironpony (Mar 30, 2019)

Okay thanks.  I didn't give any clues to the latest readers as well as as the latest part of the story I posted on here, and I felt the responses were vastly different compared to when I asked them about a specific plot point particularly.  One thing I've been told before is that the characters need to be smarter and not take such dangerous risks.  But I feel that if no one takes any dangerous risks, cause they are too smart, then there is no suspense?  Or it makes the characters come across as too foolish, but is there a fine to be drawn between suspense and character foolishness?


----------



## moderan (Mar 30, 2019)

It's you.


----------



## luckyscars (Mar 30, 2019)

ironpony said:


> One thing I've been told before is that the characters need to be smarter and not take such dangerous risks.  But I feel that if no one takes any dangerous risks, cause they are too smart, then there is no suspense?  Or it makes the characters come across as too foolish, but is there a fine to be drawn between suspense and character foolishness?



Taking risks, even dangerous ones, doesn't mean you aren't smart. 

Running into a burning house to save a child is a 'dangerous risk' but doing it doesn't make you stupid, especially if there is a viable chance you can succeed. Parachuting into Nazi-occupied France was certainly dangerous but there was a clear, rational motive for doing so. The examples are literally endless.

I don't know who told you your characters need to not take dangerous risks. Plenty (most?) stories contain some degree of severe risk, that's how you create drama. The only requirement is that those risks make sense for the character in question. Most likely the problem is that you are having your characters behave in a way that is unrealistic or irrational. Like having a schoolteacher respond to an unruly schoolchild by shooting them in the face. That would be unrealistic and irrational and, yes, a 'dangerous risk'.

Hopefully this makes sense. Please stop thinking of stuff in this binary way.


----------



## Dluuni (Mar 30, 2019)

It's okay if you have some holes, as long as people don't notice them. I think in terms of stage magic here, which I dabbled in briefly once; you are creating a path for people's eyes to be pulled from place to place to show them what they should be looking at, and making everything outside of that path look dull and uninteresting. The same principle was of importance in capoeira, where you are creating a plot of large, visible movements and techniques and doing variants in boring places that turn into attacks. If you have some plot holes that make things work, then you have to pull attention off of the holes and onto the narrative.

One of the marks I put in crits for my writing group is 'Squirrel!', signifying places where the pacing and direction slips, and attention starts to drift. You don't want any squirrels, because those are places people might put the book down, but you especially don't want them near flaws in the story, as that's where they will start picking up on details like that.


----------



## Sir-KP (Mar 30, 2019)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  I didn't give any clues to the latest readers as well as as the latest part of the story I posted on here, and I felt the responses were vastly different compared to when I asked them about a specific plot point particularly.  One thing I've been told before is that the characters need to be smarter and not take such dangerous risks.  But I feel that if no one takes any dangerous risks, cause they are too smart, then there is no suspense?  Or it makes the characters come across as too foolish, but is there a fine to be drawn between suspense and character foolishness?



Yes, there is.

Taking risk is gambling on probability. Being smart means being able to calculate the risk, the possibility, and the plan when it's fubar.


----------



## ironpony (Mar 31, 2019)

Okay thanks, but characters taking risks leads to more excitement.  Let's say if the police tried to arrest the villains, that I don't want the villains to go quietly and actually try to shoot their way out of it and get away, only leading to more dramatic consequences... How do I write that without making the villains look like an foolish for trying to shoot the police?

Or, how do I make the hero take risks, trying to get the villains, without making him look like a fool for taking risks.  How do you write it so that characters risks their own lives and safety, as well as that of other people, without making them look fools, or what's the trick?


----------



## luckyscars (Mar 31, 2019)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks, but characters taking risks leads to more excitement.  Let's say if the police tried to arrest the villains, that I don't want the villains to go quietly and actually try to shoot their way out of it and get away, only leading to more dramatic consequences... How do I write that without making the villains look like an foolish for trying to shoot the police?
> 
> Or, how do I make the hero take risks, trying to get the villains, without making him look like a fool for taking risks.  How do you write it so that characters risks their own lives and safety, as well as that of other people, without making them look fools, or what's the trick?



Fellow, I give up. 

I literally just told you it's totally *fine* to have characters commit rash, sometimes foolish, often dangerous actions so long as it makes sense for_ THESE characters in THIS situation_. 

The idea of villains shooting their way out of an arrest is totally *fine* so long as either:

 (1) It can be explained by their personality (if they are naturally aggressive, they will be more likely to shoot the police versus if they are wimps) and the way they react in general to a 'fight or flight' situation.

...and/or...

(2) It can be explained by it being the better of two options - i.e if they don't shoot the police they will be going to jail for a long time anyway 'so why not just try shooting them?'

There's no trick here. I don't generally care for the way some forum members respond to you questions and am trying to be supportive, but it's incredibly annoying to bother to respond only for you to pay zero attention. 

It's almost like you don't actually try to comprehend the responses to your threads and simply want to protract the 'discussion' as much as you can simply by being obtuse. 

Stop it.


----------



## ironpony (Mar 31, 2019)

Oh okay.  Sorry I am just trying to find out what I can't and can do.   It's not that I am not paying attention, I just find certain questions in the responses given to me, and the responses raise more questions within me, that's all.


----------



## Dluuni (Mar 31, 2019)

IP, your responses that I have seen tend to resemble a form I have learned to recognize as combative from people who use them on me far too often as a form of attack. Instead of accepting an answer and possibly having a related question, followup questions appear or feel as if worded to fish for an answer that undermines the answer you have been given.

 When one receives an answer, believe the answer. Wear the answer. See how the answer applies to the situations you are looking at. Give it a few practice swings. Take it out for a spin to see where it can be applied to. It is a bit like a young impetuous student in a fantasy, taught a magic spell. "But what about this situation or that situation or.." No. Go, young apprentice, practice your new spell first. Study how it works and where you might have seen its principles. After you have practiced your spell and plumbed its depths, you may ask new questions. Not before.

Avoid asking immediate followup "But what about" questions; those are often read as manipulative by people who have experienced far too much manipulation and abuse over their lifetime from numerous sources. Also, they were often already addressed by the original answer.

Look up "Whataboutism" and "Sealioning" and attempt to avoid making replies that resemble those, as the minorities you encounter deal with far too many people hostile to our existence who like to waste our time and energy with such things. I cannot read your mind to know your intent with writing responses like that, and I assume you have good intentions, but the way the questions are asked reminds people too much of the constant pecking from people with bad intentions. Questions should be bold and stand on their own, not be a fishing mission for exceptions to a principle you are just now hearing described.


----------



## Sir-KP (Mar 31, 2019)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks, but characters taking risks leads to more excitement.  Let's say if the police tried to arrest the villains, that I don't want the villains to go quietly and actually try to shoot their way out of it and get away, only leading to more dramatic consequences... How do I write that without making the villains look like an foolish for trying to shoot the police?
> 
> Or, how do I make the hero take risks, trying to get the villains, without making him look like a fool for taking risks.  How do you write it so that characters risks their own lives and safety, as well as that of other people, without making them look fools, or what's the trick?



Taking risk, by nature, always make the person to seem like a fool in the beginning.


----------



## ironpony (Mar 31, 2019)

Okay thanks.  Sorry if I was not totally accepting of the answers, it's just I don't see how a lot of the answers apply sometimes, fully to the situation in the story I describe.  Like let's say you are writing and you want to a character to do something crazy and risky, but how do you do that without it coming off as forced to make the plot go in a certain direction?  These are the parts I keep on having problems with it, and I haven't been able to apply a lot of the answers correctly to solve the problems, if that makes sense.

Even if I accept the answers and apply them without questions, I find that it can create other problems in the story, and that is why I feel I have to address more questions in the answers.


----------



## moderan (Mar 31, 2019)

Okay thanks. 
Plot holes are not advances in the story. They are things that need filled in. 
Okay thanks. 
Everything else is overthink, and making-excuses-instead-of-actually-writing, and OCD-anxiety, and just plain not-trying-very-hard.
Okay thanks.
What does all that mean?


----------



## ironpony (Mar 31, 2019)

Well I have written the story over several times, and I guess my biggest problem is, is that I find myself unable to reach the desired pay off.  The characters keep making decisions I don't want them to make and they are taking it in a different direction than I want.  Not sure what do then, and the books I have read on fiction writing, don't really talk a lot about how if the characters are doing things you don't want, on how to reverse that without it feeling forced.  So that is my main problem and still trying to figure that out while rewriting it over and over.


----------



## Dluuni (Mar 31, 2019)

That's usually because of something a chapter or three back. Ask why they are doing it and rewind time just enough to fix it.


----------



## ironpony (Mar 31, 2019)

Okay thanks.  But I feel that you cannot fix a lot of the problems in that way, without causing other problems though.  That is a lot of why I struggle.  A lot of it has to do with budget, since I'm writing a screenplay, and I find the characters keep making decisions that the budget will not allow.  I was told before to not care about budget and just write what the characters would do and worry about budget later.  Well I am now at the phase later, where budget is now a concern and I have to make changes.

But how do you make changes to keep costs down, if you find that is not what the characters would do, since I wrote before it before that they would do what they would do regardless, of budget?   I can't figure out how to write around budget limitations without interfering with character logic.


----------



## Dluuni (Mar 31, 2019)

If this is a recurring problem, have you tried various forms of outlining? The issue you mentioned is a chronic one with pantsers. If people like Agatha Christie or Stephen King haven't solved it, I certainly can't.


----------



## ironpony (Mar 31, 2019)

Oh okay.  Yeah, I was following an outline, it's just little things here and there that were not in the outline, that I didn't discover were a problem until later, after following the outline, and writing it out in full detail.  The outline seemed to make a lot of sense, after I feel I perfected it, but then when writing things out later in full detail, little details come to light, that I didn't see before in the outline.


----------



## Dluuni (Mar 31, 2019)

That's normal, you fix it in editing.
The first draft is basically telling the story to yourself so you can see what you have. Then you have to go back and fix the structure, continuity, etc. in the editing stage.


----------



## ironpony (Mar 31, 2019)

Oh okay thanks.  What do you mean by continuity in this context, just the series of how the plot events relate to each other?


----------



## Dluuni (Mar 31, 2019)

Among other things, yes. Making sure your plot is ordered in an entertaining way, and that all of the things in the end are properly foreshadowed and all the details stay the same. there's lots of guides on editing, it should take several passes - no point in line editing a section you are going to have to rewrite and move around, for instance - but it should not be a constant struggle of second guessing yourself. If you are second guessing how to word something yet again, call it good and move to the next stage.
It's a bit like carving; first you are carving the rough shape out, then you are fine tuning the shape and making sure it's going to work as desired, then the details get measured and carved out, then the fine detail work, then the last bit of polishing. It's a several stage process.


----------



## ironpony (Mar 31, 2019)

Okay thanks.  Well I feel like the story is structured pretty good so far, after quite a few rewrites now, and I feel the continuity holds up I think.  The only trouble I am having is writing the action sequences.  I want to make them exciting, so the characters have to to do crazy things, and take risks, it's just that how do you get the reader to believe them.

For example, I was watching the movie Dirty Harry, and in it, a bus is taken hostage by the villain Dirty Harry jumps on the bus and a gunfight ensues with the villain shooting through the bus roof.But in real life, no cop would jump on a bus. They would just radio ahead and get road blocks set up. But the filmmakers wanted their bus action scene. So how do you write a script that the reader accepts that rather than asking "why didn't Harry just call it in and have road blocks set up?". Things like that make it hard to have the reader believe I find.

So I feel the story holds together, just not the action scenes, since I want to make them exciting and risky at the same time, but the logic of the plot is bringing the riskiness down, if that makes sense?


----------



## Sir-KP (Mar 31, 2019)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  Well I feel like the story is structured pretty good so far, after quite a few rewrites now, and I feel the continuity holds up I think.  The only trouble I am having is writing the action sequences.  I want to make them exciting, so the characters have to to do crazy things, and take risks, it's just that how do you get the reader to believe them.
> 
> For example, I was watching the movie Dirty Harry, and in it, a bus is taken hostage by the villain Dirty Harry jumps on the bus and a gunfight ensues with the villain shooting through the bus roof.But in real life, no cop would jump on a bus. They would just radio ahead and get road blocks set up. But the filmmakers wanted their bus action scene. So how do you write a script that the reader accepts that rather than asking "why didn't Harry just call it in and have road blocks set up?". Things like that make it hard to have the reader believe I find.
> 
> So I feel the story holds together, just not the action scenes, since I want to make them exciting and risky at the same time, but the logic of the plot is bringing the riskiness down, if that makes sense?



It would begin with the viewers keeping in mind "it's just a (fiction) movie".

Secondly, through Dirty Harry's characteristics. If Dirty Harry was written as a sage with long beard, calm attitude, and don't believe in violence, then you wouldn't see him jump on the bus roof.


----------



## ironpony (Mar 31, 2019)

Okay thanks, perhaps I got to make the characteristics of the characters more emotional or different than.


----------

