# The Hero's Journey and the refusal to the call of adventure.



## ironpony (Jan 20, 2019)

I was reading Joseph Campbell's Hero Journey:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero's_journey

Part of the screenplay I am writing, I followed his journey when in the first to second act, when the main character refuses the call to adventure, but then something happens, where he has to change his mind. 

 In this case, the main character is a cop, and a witness in a case who knows too much and wants police protection. The police do not have the resources to protect just any witness all the time, and the main character refuses to do it cause he cannot be payed to, and if I am going for realism, it would be against protocol.  

But then an attempt is made on the witness, which compels him to protect her, whatever the cost, even though he is disobeying protocol, that is if I go for realism.

But I feel like maybe the refusal to the call is unnecessary.  Like it happens so often in fiction that it has become a cliched structure, especially if it's the whole cop disobeys protocol to protect a witness, which I'm sure has probably been done before.

But even if it's not the same plot as this, the hero refusing the call has been done so many times, that I wonder if it's just better not to have it.  Just have the hero go for the call immediately and in this case want to protect the witness, without refusing it, and without needing a prior attempt on her life to help him change his mind.

Maybe he should start out already wanting to cause the refusal to the call just doesn't do anything and the readers (or viewers), already expect this, so why do it, if they are going to expect it?

But what do you think, is the refusal of the call, kind of worn out, especially if you can't put a new spin on it, with the story idea you have?


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## Guard Dog (Jan 20, 2019)

Depends on whether or not you want a Dudley Do-right, 'boy scout' type type like Superman that feels obligated to intercede anywhere and anyhow he/she can, or someone who's sense of responsibility gets him/her sucked into something they really don't want to deal with, but who's personality/mentality won't let 'em stand around with their hands in their pockets.

...or the third option of someone who wants no part of it, but HAS to get involved for their own well-being and security. You know, that old "I gotta help you or I'm screwed too".

It all depends on what you want the motivation for your story to be.  'Cause people don't do stuff for no reason at all.

G.D.


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## Darkkin (Jan 20, 2019)

If her information is so critical to an investigation, a key witness, an attempt was made on her life, and law enforcement will not provide protection, this is screaming plot hole.  How has she not been remanded as a material witness?  Local agencies, when overwhelmed can ask for assistance from the Feds, FBI and the Marshal services to name a couple, especially when dealing with crimes like bank robbery, if the rings are active across more than one state, that is federal jurisdiction.  It is a similar case with DEA amd ATF.

Being a genre reader, what you are tauting as realism seems more like an implausibility of plot, not an issue with the MC, who 'won't do it cause he won't get paid'.  Talk about lack of emotional development and characterisation.  You want the reader to read, a character needs something to recommend him, a bit of moral fibre would help.  Imagine the scenario:  

Witness 1, who is currently seated on gurney, a nurse bandaging her arm, (the wound from a bullet graze).

'So you can't help me?'

Cop Guy

'Nope.  They won't approve the overtime.'

Nurse, snorts...

'Knight in crumpled tin foil...'

W1:  Laughs.

'Maybe he just needs oil.'

Nurse, glances up, amused.

'Rusty from standing under people raining on his parade too long?'

Cop:  Tips of his ears are now bright red, as he swears under his breath and exits the space.

Nurse: Finishes bandaging W1's arm, fingers a card in the pocket of her scrubs, looks a W1 again, comes to a decision.

'I know someone who might be able to help...'  (Pulls card from her pocket, hands it to W1) 

'My brother is FBI with the office out of City X.  He listens for free.'

W1:  Smiles reluctantly and begins considering her options.




Right now, the plausibility of this plot just seems out of balance.

At a juncture like this, what person knowing their information was crucial, would not try and do something to protect themselves.  e.g. going into hiding, or contacting the federal authorities on their own?

Watch procedurals, both fictionalised and real, read the books both genre and nonfiction...The patterns, the procedures, just like Campbell's journey are all there.  The systems, while flawed and overburdened, are in place for a reason and without some profoundly compelling reason, like the local heads of law enforcement being on the bad guy's payroll, you deviate in an attempt to be original and you will hobble your own storyline.  You want to use archetype and genre, acknowlege how the structure works before trying to break it.

Hero sees his ideal of the system is broken, he knows those higher up are on the take...Gets his ass in gear, does what is right, not easy.  Moment  of character growth is achieved when he faces the reality.  He makes a phone call, reaches out and details his case.  Collected evidence, e.g. video of illict activity.  Action furthers a reaction, robbery across three states, Feds can step in, but do so quietly.  Cop becomes witness, his footing is even with W1, whom he now begins to empathise with... Refusal to the call is a step for the reluctant hero.  It is a moral crisis, ignore it or do what is right.  That is the entire basis for the hero's journey, the archetype for storytelling since man developed myths.  It is not cliche when characters are vibrant and plot is solid and well paced.

Sit down with a dry eraseboard and a marker.  On one side write the steps of Hero's Journey in order.  On the other write the MC's journey.  Identify the catalysts and motivations for the actions leading to the next step.  Articulating the process helps solidify these factors from a vague concept into clear ideas.  This will give you a visual road map of a convoluted process.

And if you are using Hero's Journey, take the time to read the book..._Hero with a Thousand Faces,_ The Collected Works of Joseph Campbell which includes his work on the Hero's Journey, it also covers material like character motivation and moral crisises.  Wiki is good for basics, but with fundamentals like story structure sometimes deeper research is needed.  If you don't have time for reading, the series _Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth _is also another resource that can be utilised.

What was described above is not an issue with the journey being cliche, it is an under developed understanding of the MC's motivations and morals.  The character needs to be written and actively worked with in order to indentify these factors.

Consider:  How would Cop Guy respond to the overheard conversation between the Nurse and W1?  He left, but didn't go far...Thirty second roleplay scene, write it.  Things like that really do help.  Also ask, what is W1's motivation for continuing to trust CG, when a) he says he can't help because they won't pay him and b) she has already been injured.  CG has given W1 absolutely no incentive to remain in his company.


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## ironpony (Jan 20, 2019)

Okay thanks, I see what you mean I think.  But when I was doing research with the police, the police said they cannot afford to protect witnesses, cause they are not a protection service.  She would have to hire bodyguards for that they said, or come up with some sort of alternate arrangements, cause they are not a protection service.  I asked a few cops this, and they said that they put witnesses up in hotels, but do not actually have police guarding the hotel, cause they are not a protection detail service, and have other jobs they need to do, and cannot afford it.

I asked a person who was a witness in a real case, and she said the police also, just put her up in a hotel, and that was it, with no guards or anything.  So I was going by what I researched, and therefore, it's not a plot hole according to the real police. 



Guard Dog said:


> Depends on whether or not you want a Dudley Do-right, 'boy scout' type type like Superman that feels obligated to intercede anywhere and anyhow he/she can, or someone who's sense of responsibility gets him/her sucked into something they really don't want to deal with, but who's personality/mentality won't let 'em stand around with their hands in their pockets.
> 
> ...or the third option of someone who wants no part of it, but HAS to get involved for their own well-being and security. You know, that old "I gotta help you or I'm screwed too".
> 
> ...



Well the main character would not be screwed as well, I mean if the witness is harmed or killed, it doesn't really screw him at all, but he would feel bad for her of course, if she was.  I suppose he has the won't stand around with his hands in his pockets type.


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## PiP (Jan 20, 2019)

If I was a key witness in a high profile murder case I'd expect protection otherwise I'd not co operate with the police


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## Guard Dog (Jan 20, 2019)

'Pony, it all depends on the type of case, the department, etc.

We've been through this before.

Not all law enforcement agencies are created equal, not all cases are equal.

If it's an important enough case, money WILL be found to keep the witness safe, or someone's head will roll.

That's a certainty.
( The District Attorney's office will DEMAND it. )


And yeah, Pip... people get real uncooperative when they're left hung out to dry.


G.D.


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## ironpony (Jan 20, 2019)

Okay thanks, I know we've been through this before, but I was told by the police that they don't do that.  Unless of course they automatically all assumed I was talking about a trivial case, but you think that kidnapping would be trivial.  But I even asked one of the LEO's before, what if the district attorney's office demands protection, and his response was that they would remind the DA that they are sorry, but that is not the police's job.  Is that true, that they would say that?

But in my story, the witness does not want to cooperate and she keeps resisting.  So the DA subpoenas her to testify at a preliminary hearing to see what she will say.  However, since she has been subpoenaed she figures she won't wait until a hearing and just go down to the station and talk to get it over with.  However, when the police interview her, the DA finds out that she is not reliable and cannot use her.  So he decides to forget about using her and just go with three remaining witnesses instead.  Of course the criminals in the story, do not know she has been deemed unreliable to the DA, so they still come after her later to find out what she told the police.

So would the DA still bother with protection if the witness is deemed unreliable and doesn't want to use her and concentrate on other witnesses?  The main character still feels compelled to protect her if she is danger, even if she is not going to be used in the case, since she is still a human being in danger of course.  But would the DA still round up protection for a witness he is not going to use?


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## Guard Dog (Jan 20, 2019)

'Pony... It's called a procedural. There's a procedure. You have to learn it, if you wanna do this stuff properly.

( A typical 20 year veteran cop doesn't know so much about the law, as what the procedure is in his department, what to expect from the people he works with/for, and what they expect out of him/her. )

...and most beat cops don't have a helluva lot of knowledge of LAW to begin with. They get some classes in their 6 weeks of training, then a few days a year of In-Service training. That's it.

They can tell you what THEIR DEPARTMENT does, in certain instances, but even that information may be off/faulty.

I got lucky... I had a training officer that was studying for his law degree, and ended spending a lot of time in court with one of my wive's ex's, which is the only reason I know what I do about this stuff.

Now... my suggestion, once again is... Write your story. Finish it. Then find someone with a background in that stuff that's willing to read and critique it.

That's really about all you can do.

...other than to just make shit up to suit yourself and hope it sells.




G.D.


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## ironpony (Jan 20, 2019)

Okay thanks, but most crime thrillers do not have 100 percent realism though, otherwise the stories would get complicated cause there is too much red tape.  So I was told it's okay to make some things up in order for the story to be more entertaining.  Unless that's not true?

If I should write it so that she has protection, even though the DA is not even going to use her in the case, then I guess the hero doesn't have to refuse the call, cause it will be assigned to him and the refusal of the call, doesn't apply then, if that's better?


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## Guard Dog (Jan 20, 2019)

It's your story, write it how you want. *shrug*



G.D.


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## Hill.T.Manner (Jan 20, 2019)

Dude... you've been given answers, stop finding holes in them to ask more questions. It's your story, write it, own it, and when the time comes to review it someone will give you notes. Finding more questions in the answers people give you is counterproductive.


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## ironpony (Jan 20, 2019)

Okay thanks, sorry it's just that the answers have questions within them that I feel I must address, if I am to apply them, that's all.

I mean when I have different people telling me different things about what is real and not real in law enforcement procedure, how do you decide who's answer is best to follow...


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## Hill.T.Manner (Jan 20, 2019)

Easy... stop asking the questions. Write your story! when you're done with it, send it to someone to review it and they'll tell you what works and what doesn't. That's it.


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## ironpony (Jan 20, 2019)

Okay thanks, but when I did this before, the problems were much more difficult to fix and I was told that my problem was to not write a whole story first without fixing the problems during the writing.  A story is like a building of Jenga blocks, and if you pull one out, the whole thing will collapse.

So I have to make sure each block has no plot holes in before assembling the whole building together.  Otherwise the whole story has to be redone instead of just concentrating on one section at at time.  That is what I was told before anyway, and to not write an entire story not knowing if all the parts work yet.

Or if I am to write the whole story, and give it to people to read and someone discovers a plot hole, how do you fix the whole without throwing away the entire story?  Is there a way to fix a plot hole on it's own without it infecting everything else, that I am not seeing?


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## Guard Dog (Jan 20, 2019)

Look, 'Pony... I talk a lot around here...

I ask questions, I answer questions ( where I can ), but I don't ask people to help me write my story, other than in _very_ minor ways.

Working out the plot or the story-line? That's my job, and my responsibility.

Help with finding a word or term to describe something I know, and can 'see', but just haven't found that perfect bit to pass along the thought? Hell yeah, I'll ask folks about it.

Wanting someone to help me design a sub-spatial quantum faster-than-light drive with compressed dimensional, exponential speed capabilities?

I got that in the bag. ( Thanks to Einstein's 'Spooky Action' and Quantum Entanglement. )
( A little help from a sorceress didn't hurt either. )

The point here, is that I actually STUDIED and researched the things I needed, to do what I wanted to do, and then used 'artistic license' to make the parts fit that needed help, in a semi-believable way.

G.D.


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## Hill.T.Manner (Jan 20, 2019)

Geez you really don't listen. I'm not answering any questions you ask, so i'll repeat myself again... Write YOUR story, use Google to research your questions, there's a whole world of information out there available to you if you make the effort to research it. Stop depending on others to write your story for you.


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## ironpony (Jan 20, 2019)

Okay thanks.  Well if I do my own research, I feel like just going with the original plan and have the main character be forced to act on his own to provide protection himself then and just keep it the way it was, if that's fine.

I just was asking before if I should use the refusal to the call or not within that idea.

Sorry I didn't think I was asking people to write the plot for me.  All I asked in the original question was whether or not I should use the refusal to the call to adventure.  Other than that, I already had my own plot written and mapped out so far.  I thought that asking if whether or I should use the refusal would be a minor change to be asking.


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## Guard Dog (Jan 20, 2019)

To be honest, 'Pony, nobody cares but you.

It's your story. It's your time. And it's your effort.

Nobody wants to spend so much of _their_ time on _your_ story.

And those are the facts, as Joe Friday would say.


G.D.


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## ironpony (Jan 20, 2019)

Oh yeah, I know, it's just that it's a writing forum and I thought it would be okay to ask something that was little in the story, and wouldn't take as much time, like whether or not to use the refusal to the call to adventure in this case, that's all


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## Hill.T.Manner (Jan 20, 2019)

It's okay to ask for clarification or opinions, but asking further questions "how should I do this" "Well what about this" "What about that" after people give you answers tells people you really have no vested interest in doing your own footwork, you just want others to do it for you.


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## ironpony (Jan 20, 2019)

Oh okay sorry, it's just I find questions in the answers that I feel need to be addressed.  Like it was said before to not keep asking about holes in the answers.  But I figure that the person who answered the question would know the hole best and be able to answer the questions within the answer the best, so I just wanted to know.


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## Darkkin (Jan 20, 2019)

The problem isn't plot holes, it is an unwritten story that you keep expecting the forums to write for you.  If you took as much time to work out a scene as you do posting ineffective questions you probably could have completed the story by now.  Right now this concept has as much dimension and development as wet cardboard because you have not actively worked with your characters.  I have an outline for a new story just from the brief exercise from my example post...

You want an answer to every question, write the situation in existence and see how the characters respond, surprising things can happen when one puts in the effort.  Look at the title of your thread, consider, refusal to answer the call...hmm, the call to write, maybe...


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## Guard Dog (Jan 20, 2019)

I know better than this, but I'm gonna try one last time anyway...

The person answering the question isn't creating the hole. YOU are, in what you're wanting to do.

So YOU have to fix the hole.

...and you're not entitled to ask a million questions of anybody to do it; you need to resolve things on your own, according to the way you want your story to go.


It really is that simple.

You. Your story.  No one else's.



G.D.


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## ironpony (Jan 20, 2019)

Okay thanks.  I thought that the police's answer in my research already fixed the hole though, that the police cannot protect someone from months on end or however long it would take.  So I thought that that answer fixed the hole.


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## Darkkin (Jan 20, 2019)

[QUOTE=ironpony;2201676]Okay thanks, but when I did this before, the problems were much more difficult to fix and I was told that my problem was to not write a whole story first without fixing the problems during the writing. A story is like a building of Jenga blocks, and if you pull one out, the whole thing will collapse.

So I have to make sure each block has no plot holes in before assembling the whole building together. Otherwise the whole story has to be redone instead of just concentrating on one section at at time. That is what I was told before anyway, and to not write an entire story not knowing if all the parts work yet.

Or if I am to write the whole story, and give it to people to read and someone discovers a plot hole, how do you fix the whole without throwing away the entire story? Is there a way to fix a plot hole on it's own without it infecting everything else, that I am not seeing?[/QUOTE]

Your Jenga blocks are all over the floor just from the description in your original post.  When that many questions are raised over a finite example it is a red flag signalling your fundamentals need attention, namely, you need to actually write the scene and get to know your character. Given the description, as a reader would I find the story engaging?  In all honesty, no, there are plot issues Godzilla can stroll through.  I read the genre, and have seen how it works when done well.  There is no quick fix, only solid road work and critique.  A hero's refusal is usually fairly early in a story arc, it is a base element and if that scene is weak, chances are the cracks extend across the entire project.  Post a scene instead of a hypothetical situation and see where your block stands.

Also if police realise they cannot protect a witness until trail X months away, they will usually reach out to the US Marshals, this is pretty basic.  Realistically how many witnesses have the wherewithal to hire bodyguards for an extended period of time...you are really missing the boat with this whole situation, IP...


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## ironpony (Jan 20, 2019)

Okay thanks.  I already wrote out the whole section though, and in it, I wrote that the hero does refuse the call to adventure, but then is compelled it accept the call, once the witness is put in danger.

Mainly I want to write one of those crimes stories where the hero is forced to do things on his own rather than have the police department he works for give him all the help he needs.  If the witness is able to get police protection, than the hero can just go home, or work on other cases.  I don't want that.  So how do other writers, writing in this genre, have the hero have to take the call to adventure on his own, without help?  What do other stories do differently, that I am not doing?


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## Darkkin (Jan 20, 2019)

Read and find out...You want to write genre, learn its basic structure first, handing you an answer will not help your learning process.  Writing is hands on.  You have a complete section post a small part of it to the protected workshops, see if your actual work holds water because your overview is leaking like a sieve.

Two hypothetical characters had your MC's motivations shredded in less than three sentences...that does not bode well for your MC's characterisation.  This is as basic as it gets, yes, characters have flaws, these are revealed and faced over the course of the story, but a MC who essentially comes across sounding like, 'Yeah, it's your problem if you die, 'cause they aren't paying me.'

You want the reader to relate to your MC, your character needs a moral tune up.


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## Hill.T.Manner (Jan 20, 2019)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  I already wrote out the whole section though, and in it, I wrote that the hero does refuse the call to adventure, but then is compelled it accept the call, once the witness is put in danger.
> 
> Mainly I want to write one of those crimes stories where the hero is forced to do things on his own rather than have the police department he works for give him all the help he needs.  If the witness is able to get police protection, than the hero can just go home, or work on other cases.  I don't want that.  So how do other writers, writing in this genre, have the hero have to take the call to adventure on his own, without help?  What do other stories do differently, that I am not doing?



You're doing it again, asking others how they write is essentially the same as asking them to write it for you. You're looking for examples to base your work off of which is what everyone has been talking about, it's something you have to stop because it removes all originality in your work. *Figure it out on your own*. If you're skilled in your craft you don't need direction.


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## ironpony (Jan 20, 2019)

Well I've been trying to figure it out for a long time and still haven't yet.  I could keep trying.

I've noticed that other stories in the same genre, also do the same thing I do it seems, and have plot holes in just like mine.  So why is that the audience or readers, doesn't seem to care as long as they still find the story compelling and entertaining?  It seems to me that I have figured it out and plot holes are okay as long as the story is engaging and entertaining.  Am I wrong on that though?


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## Hill.T.Manner (Jan 20, 2019)

It's like you don't read a single piece of advice anybody gives you. It's your story. Write it. Stop depending on others to help you flesh out your material, until you do that you'll never succeed.


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## ironpony (Jan 20, 2019)

Okay thanks, sorry I am just trying to understand.  I am on the latest draft of it, revising it over again, and when I ask about the refusal to the call on here, people tell me it's a plot hole that and that it's a problem.  Should I just not listen and own the plot holes then, even though others say it doesn't work?


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## Darkkin (Jan 20, 2019)

If you knew the steps of the journey, the cadence of the procedural you would not have to ask such a question.  Plot holes are shoddy writing all the way around and they will come back to bite you, your whole story will come crashing down around your ears. 

 Post for critique and get a taste of reality, not an endless loop of hypothetical head banging. Consider pairing with one of the mentors because members here have pointed out your plot holes and they are legion even in the theory stage.  The characters and plot, as outlined cannot support its own weight because you have not done the work, a.k.a actual writing.


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## Hill.T.Manner (Jan 20, 2019)

I'm seconds away from finding a wall to put my head through. I'm done, like meat left in a cooker for too long, Overdone even. 

Last time I'm commenting on this thread: 

*Figure it out on your own. If you can't or won't then you don't need to be writing about it.*


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## ironpony (Jan 20, 2019)

Okay then, well how am I suppose to finish it if there are holes then?  Isn't it best to address the sections now, so I can finish it better?


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## Darkkin (Jan 20, 2019)

ironpony said:


> Okay then, well how am I suppose to finish it if there are holes then?  Isn't it best to address the sections now, so I can finish it better?



How can one finish that which one has not written?  There is no proof of life, only hypothetical situations which will never give a writer a realistic view of their work.  You won't actually commit to writing the character (refusal to the call), consider the reactions in this thread, honest reactions supporting characters are going to exhibiting to Cop Guy because he has no gumption or drive, other characters walk away totally disgusted to pursue means that are more promising and feasible.  Cop Guy has proven wholly inept in his given role, this is the hero readers are supposed to be rooting for.  You see the problem...


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## ironpony (Jan 20, 2019)

Well I can finish revise the latest draft a few more times and then post it for critique.  I mean I could post the whole thing, but do other writers actually want to read an entire story that is many pages to critique rather than a section?


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## Darkkin (Jan 20, 2019)

Post a single section...like eating an elephant, one small bite at a time.  Start with something basic like page one.  Don't revise it, pair with a mentor ask if they can give the sample a critique.  You need a baseline read on the material because right now, yeesh...Baby steps, prove that you have actual work, not just an abstract.

You have theorised on this project so much, you don't have any perspective on it.


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## ironpony (Jan 21, 2019)

Well I haven't posted sections of the screenplay before, this site would mess up the format, and it make unreadable, when I've tried before.  The site doesn't support the screenplay formatting or is not compatible.  So I am not sure how to post sections, properly then.

But this site has changed around since last time I tried.  Should I post it in the fiction workshop?


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## Guard Dog (Jan 21, 2019)

Retracted, due to Ironpony actually posting part of his script.

:encouragement:


G.D.


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## Newman (Jan 22, 2019)

ironpony said:


> I was reading Joseph Campbell's Hero Journey:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero's_journey
> 
> ...



It's not worn out at all, not in the slightest. The Oscar nominees for 2019 have just been announced and it's there in all those movies.

There's a tendency to view it literally, but it's much wider in scope - refusal to journey, change, accept the thematic view, make a choice and so on. And it doesn't just apply to the main character - your witness can decline the cops help, the cop can decline to help the witness, they can both agree to help each other and journey but decline to accept each others point of view etc. This is to do with your arcs.


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