# Theme first or story first?



## SinJinQLB (Mar 6, 2014)

I was just wondering how many writers here come up with a theme first before writing. Like you say I'm going to write a book about war, and then start building a story around it.

Or do you start thinking up a story, perhaps involving a war, but let the theme grow organically, maybe the theme ends up being love?

And do you find pros and cons with either or?


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## T.S.Bowman (Mar 6, 2014)

The only theme I had in mmind when I started my novel was "Man winds up in unfamiliar world."


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## Bishop (Mar 6, 2014)

Theme comes for me when I read the book the first time and see what I said, what my characters said. I never go into it with a theme in mind. Mostly because every reader can percieve a theme differently. Romeo and Juliet to some people is about the unending passion of love. To me, it might be a warning tale about the impulsiveness of young, idiotic lovers. Each person's experience shapes the way they read into things. At the same time, a true theme can come a cross, but it can be very heavy handed, like The Jungle by Upton Sinclair. That book has a very clear and real purpose about the evils of labor conditions and trends--It's what he intended to write about. The trade off is that few people go to the book store and say, "You know. I'm looking for a book that discusses the evils of labor conditions in the turn of the Century..."

Bishop


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## Grizzly (Mar 7, 2014)

Definitely story first; themes second, if at all. I don't write with themes in mind. Mostly because I don't think writing (or any art, for that matter) should have a theme. Themes are more of a byproduct of writing, it's just something that kind of happens. I usually don't know the theme of anything I write.


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## T.S.Bowman (Mar 7, 2014)

Grizzly said:


> Definitely story first; themes second, if at all. I don't write with themes in mind. Mostly because I don't think writing (or any art, for that matter) should have a theme. Themes are more of a byproduct of writing, it's just something that kind of happens. I usually don't know the theme of anything I write.



This reminds me of a line from 'It'.

Bill Denborough asks his college professor "Why can't a story just be a story?"

I completely agree with that sentiment.


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## Blade (Mar 7, 2014)

Grizzly said:


> Definitely story first; themes second, if at all. I don't write with themes in mind. Mostly because I don't think writing (or any art, for that matter) should have a theme. Themes are more of a byproduct of writing, it's just something that kind of happens. I usually don't know the theme of anything I write.



:salut:Great. You don't have to go to theme/moral/lesson/instruction/teach/directive/education or whatever to pen a great story. We get more than enough of that crap elsewhere.:blue:


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## Outiboros (Mar 7, 2014)

Story, definitely. Themes are a background affair by definition.

Personally, I don't even bother about themes that much. They surface on their own as a direct effect of the story.


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## popsprocket (Mar 7, 2014)

Themes are for to be identified, not used as a guide, as far as I'm concerned.

It's just another one of those cases where you need to write the story as it should be written, rather than bending it to fit some preconceived notions as you go.


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## Kyle R (Mar 7, 2014)

I'm from the other side of the camp (the place that seems much less populated), where the writers who consciously employ a theme into their work reside. I know a lot of writers dislike adding in a theme, arguing that it creates rigid or forced stories. I think that viewpoint has similarities with the "pants-er versus plotter" argument, as well. 

For some plotters, using theme is as natural as it is for some writers to go without it. Everyone's process is different.

That said, without a theme to build on (for me) my writing wanders aimlessly. So, I choose a flaw ("internal knot", "internal conflict", the synonyms extend in all directions...) for my main character and then I structure my story around the resolution of that flaw.

So, in my stories, the main character has to learn the theme in order to succeed against the external conflict.

For example, if I decide my character's flaw is: a crippling inability to let go of the past. Then my theme, naturally, will be, "Letting go of the past is freeing" (however you want to word it).

In one of the beginning scenes (Act One) of my story, I'll have another character mention the theme to the main character. "Hey man, it's time for you to let go and move on!"

At this point, though, the main character still hasn't learned the story lesson yet, so he'll be reluctant, of course, and disagree. The term "reluctant hero" comes to mind here, and it also has ties to Joseph Campbell's dissection of the "Hero's Journey", where the hero usually has some issue (flaw) that makes him resist becoming "the one". 

(This is why Neo from _The Matrix_ says "I can't do this", repeatedly, because he hasn't yet learned the theme–that he is The One.)

Fast-forward to the climax of the story, and whatever the external conflict is (Dinosaurs attacking the city; a freight train out of control; whatever), the main character will have an epiphany moment where he realizes that, hey, the only way he's going to kill the dragon is by first letting go of the past that's crippling him.

In the recent film _Gravity_ (SPOILER ALERT), Sandra Bullock's character suffers from the flaw I just mentioned (an inability to let go of her past, where her daughter died). In act one, George Clooney's character mentions to her, "You need to let go", hinting at the theme. Fast forward to the climax of the movie, and Clooney's character tells her, again, to let go of the past (theme stated again), because it's the only way she'll survive the space capsule issues. She has to learn the theme (the internal conflict) in order to conquer the outer conflict.

For anyone who works with theme in their stories, the film is a textbook example of how to use your character's outer conflict to resolve her internal conflict. That's using theme. :encouragement:


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## Jeko (Mar 7, 2014)

Story first, unless the theme has already been naturally considered (i.e. it can be inferred from a quick reflection on what inspired the piece). But when drafting, the story should get all the attention IMO. The theme should grow naturally around it.

In the editing/rewriting stage, I tend to pay more attention to theme than before. I never, however, think that there _must _​be a theme.


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## Tettsuo (Mar 7, 2014)

There isn't a conflict between story and theme.  The *point* of the story is to promote the theme.

Why would they ever be at odds?


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## Bishop (Mar 7, 2014)

Tettsuo said:


> There isn't a conflict between story and theme.  The *point* of the story is to promote the theme.
> 
> Why would they ever be at odds?



It's not that they necessarily conflict, its just that some writers sometimes go in with a theme in mind and the story ends up worse off because of it; it becomes too heavy-handed, or loses realism in favor of making a point. Other times, it's too obvious and readers are put off. Conversely, some people work well with theme in mind up front... I know for a fact that I am not one of these people.


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## Tettsuo (Mar 7, 2014)

Bishop said:


> It's not that they necessarily conflict, its just that some writers sometimes go in with a theme in mind and the story ends up worse off because of it; it becomes too heavy-handed, or loses realism in favor of making a point. Other times, it's too obvious and readers are put off. Conversely, some people work well with theme in mind up front... I know for a fact that I am not one of these people.



But that's not a problem with the theme, that's a problem with storytelling.  Know what I mean?

If the writer is hammering the reader with repetitious concepts, it's not the theme that's causing it.  That's just bad writing.


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## David Gordon Burke (Mar 7, 2014)

Tettsuo said:


> There isn't a conflict between story and theme. The *point* of the story is to promote the theme.
> Why would they ever be at odds?



Yes. Yes. OMG yes. The only way that the story and the theme are going to be at odds is if one or the other of them is WEAK or NON-Existent. 

My Dad, RIP, used to say, "Apple pie without the cheese is like a kiss without a squeeze." (Dad was a bit of a perv but.....) 
The point is you can't have one without the other.
For those folks who have come out swinging AGAINST theme....why the hell would anyone want to read something THEMELESS? I don't get it. 
A writer creates FICTIONAL people and then asks the reader to care about them and what happens to them. Ok, tell me why I should care about them? The suspension of belief ... the idea that I'm going to care about them based on the FAKE misery they suffer is funny. You guys are funny. Your fictional hero can fall down the well, get attacked by a pack of rabid pit bulls, save the princess, lose a king's ransom in Las Vegas, have a close encounter with a 400 lb. inmate named Bubba, stop the alien invasion and then catch the clap from a rusty mousetrap he bought last night and I will care to the extent of NONE.

But let the hero share my outrage at the injustices of the corporate world and how their greed enslaves whole nations - let him fight for animal rights and freedom, democracy and puppies and suddenly I DO CARE. Theme is directy tied to EMPATHY. We empathize with our characters not because of what they do but because of who they are and what they stand for.

Let's look at it from another point of view.

(Going out on a limb here and not meaning to be offensive)
During the Holocaust Hitler killed 6 million Jews. Millions of others were rounded up and murdered as well. 
So why would I feel a pang of regret about Ann Frank? She's just one more that died during the Holocaust. And from what I can learn, she died of an illness due to her captivity and wasn't murdered by gas or a bullet or so many other horrific methods too vile to imagine.
I, along with so many others relate to Ann Frank because when you read her diary, you get a glimpse into her mind. You identify. You relate. You wish the world really were the way she imagines it could be.
Despite everything, I believe that people are really good at heart.
Anne Frank 

These are the musings that create the 'Theme' of the book.
WAR is not a theme. War is a setting.
War is BAD is a theme. The duress of the flames of War can forge great leaders. That's a theme. 
You cannot have a great stoy without some kind of theme. 
Theme is directly related to that question that gets asked somewhere around the point where you figure out what the book is about.  It's not asked directly but subconsciously we ask ourselves early on if we want to go for the ride.  Does this question intrigue me and will I go for the ride to the end - the contract between writer and reader being that the writer will satisfy us with a logical and rewarding solution to that unasked question.  
NO THEME?  No satisfaction.  No theme?  No character growth over the span of the book.  
There is no easy fix.  These elements aren't negociable.  

The fact that a writer manages to get the job done without consciously thinking about the theme doesn't mean there isn't one in there.  Would the work turn out better if the writer consciously gave some thought to THEME?  I'd have to judge that one on a case by case basis but I'd be willing to bet that Dumas knew that the themes he was stressing in the Count of Monte Cristo were revenge, destiny, justice vs. judgement, Perseverance, Hatred, Ambition, Manipulation etc.  It didn't happen by accident.  

Name one. Name one great story that has withstood the test of time that didn't have a theme. 
I dare you.

David Gordon Burke​


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## Sam (Mar 7, 2014)

I write the story. The theme sorts itself out.


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## Bishop (Mar 7, 2014)

I should clarify... I'm not saying I write with no theme. My process is to write, to tell my story, then during the revisions, I see what I said. I can then make modifications that bring out thematic elements. 

My first book has a recurring theme that I didn't realize was there until the first revision, and when I realized it was there, I was able to tailor certain points of the book to more fluidly build and develop that theme.


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## Justin Rocket (Mar 7, 2014)

Some writers simply don't know how to consciously insert a theme at the beginning of the writing process.  So, they claim that it shouldn't be done.
Don't let their impotence influence you.  YOU must decide whether to consciously include a theme at the beginning of your writing process.
Personally, I find it helpful to include one, though I expect other themes to spontaneously emerge during the writing process.


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## Bishop (Mar 7, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> Some writers simply don't know how to consciously insert a theme at the beginning of the writing process.  So, they claim that it shouldn't be done.
> Don't let their impotence influence you.



That's an unfair statement. I'm not saying it _shouldn't_ be done, I'm saying that's not how it works for me. It doesn't make me impotent either, it just means I have differing approach. If I consciously include one, I feel like it makes me write differently and dilutes my work.

Also, he was asking for everyone's approach, not what approach he should take. I wasn't trying to influence, just clarifying my method.


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## Justin Rocket (Mar 7, 2014)

Bishop said:


> That's an unfair statement. I'm not saying it _shouldn't_ be done, I'm saying that's not how it works for me. It doesn't make me impotent either, it just means I have differing approach. If I consciously include one, I feel like it makes me write differently and dilutes my work.
> 
> Also, he was asking for everyone's approach, not what approach he should take. I wasn't trying to influence, just clarifying my method.



And I didn't have you in mind when I wrote that post as you never said that it shouldn't be done.


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## Terry D (Mar 7, 2014)

SinJinQLB said:


> I was just wondering how many writers here come up with a theme first before writing. Like you say I'm going to write a book about war, and then start building a story around it.
> 
> Or do you start thinking up a story, perhaps involving a war, but let the theme grow organically, maybe the theme ends up being love?
> 
> And do you find pros and cons with either or?



I don't consciously have a theme in mind when I start a book, or story, but most of my tales have similar themes by the time I'm done with them. Great works have been created both ways. And terrible ones too. I believe that more experienced writers who do not start with theme in mind recognize it very quickly as the story develops.


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## Bishop (Mar 7, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> And I didn't have you in mind when I wrote that post as you never said that it shouldn't be done.




Fair point, but it's still uncalled for to be referring to fellow writers as impotent.

Back to the topic at hand, I've noticed in the past that sometimes I find the theme unfold halfway through, like Terry D mentioned. My only worry when that happens is that I will lose continuity if I start to think about it too much, or even too little.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Mar 7, 2014)

Theme first.  I find the story I want to tell by exploring the concept I want to talk about.


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## Justin Rocket (Mar 7, 2014)

Bishop said:


> Fair point, but it's still uncalled for to be referring to fellow writers as impotent.



If the shoe fits..

For example, I have no problem with people calling me impotent as regards spontaneously creating a 400+ page plot in one afternoon.  That's because the shoe fits me.  Hell, I can't even spontaneously create a 250+ page plot in one week.
Creating plot takes real grinding effort for me.  So, if someone wants to call me impotent in that regard, so be it.


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## Apple Ice (Mar 7, 2014)

I think both side have valid arguments. No need to start a swinging for each other, though. One of the latest ideas I've had was created because I thought of the theme first, and I think it's a very good theme (who doesn't about their own, aye?). Sometimes I think of a story first and very quickly I realise there's a theme/message I want to accompany it. If the theme is done badly or is just bad, such as someone saying "don't punch babies" then the story tends to be bad too. I think they go hand in hand and youcan't really have one without the other.

Again though, everyone is going to state their own opinion and preference so it's best to do what works for you


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## SinJinQLB (Mar 7, 2014)

Let me ask this then - can a theme be anything? For instance, there are the common themes - war is bad, love conquers all...

But could your theme be "insects are really nasty", or "the color red induces passion"? Granted they may or may not make the backbone for great stories, but if its the backbone of your novel and permeates the character's motivations, I don't see how you couldn't say it's a theme. What do you think?


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## Terry D (Mar 7, 2014)

Theme in fiction is the truth the writer is trying to tell (IMO). If you want to tell a story which will convince the reader that insects are really nasty, then yes, that is your theme.


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## ppsage (Mar 7, 2014)

Although it's probably been done many times, I think deliberately writing good literature to embody a designated theme is the more difficult task. Conversely, most writing is in some way informed by the author's beliefs and mores, which are basically the material of theme, and avoiding their employment might be almost impossible. 

There is also the problem, in the long fiction literature of the last century or so (maybe longer, maybe forever), of that one overriding and dominant theme: the superiority of individual, heroic action to muddling committee work. No organized, communally constructed system is ever adequate to the challenges posed. Specialty assassins or shamans or matchmakers or detectives or educators or lovers or economists or demigods are always required. Much space is devoted, on this very board, to formulas for the precise explication of this theme, to the point where it's even somewhat difficult to think of creating a work without exalting some or another sort of heroic individualism.


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## David Gordon Burke (Mar 7, 2014)

Terry D said:


> Theme in fiction is the truth the writer is trying to tell (IMO). If you want to tell a story which will convince the reader that insects are really nasty, then yes, that is your theme.



Well said.  

Here I go with the blues guitar analogy again. Writing something with a theme is like playing the blues guitar - it has soul and speaks the truth. 
Writing something without a theme is like listening to some electronic, computer generated, algorythmn generated DJ sonic manure. Has no human element. Serves a purpose - it keeps the tribe shaking their booty and it's easy to forget at the end of the day. 

It's for kids. Forgotten before the ink dries. 

David Gordon Burke


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## SinJinQLB (Mar 7, 2014)

David Gordon Burke-

How do you feel about the Harry Potter series? I'm not challenging you, just honest question. Personally, I never felt a strong theme. I know that the author worked in ideas about losing your parents, evil = bad, even some segregation, but I always thought all of that stuff was contrived. I'm not saying the books have no theme, I just never really felt it was strong, nor did I connect with it. What I did connect with was the fantastic elements, the wonder, the magic, the scenery. Also, I never felt the book "spoke the truth". That is to say, the real-world challenges the characters faced (trying to get a date for the dance, standing up to the bully) also felt a bit forced and too simplistic. And on top of all that, I felt the characters were fairly one-dimensional.

And yet I love the series, and it will never be forgotten.


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## David Gordon Burke (Mar 7, 2014)

SinJinQLB said:


> David Gordon Burke-
> 
> How do you feel about the Harry Potter series? I'm not challenging you, just honest question. Personally, I never felt a strong theme. I know that the author worked in ideas about losing your parents, evil = bad, even some segregation, but I always thought all of that stuff was contrived. I'm not saying the books have no theme, I just never really felt it was strong, nor did I connect with it. What I did connect with was the fantastic elements, the wonder, the magic, the scenery. Also, I never felt the book "spoke the truth". That is to say, the real-world challenges the characters faced (trying to get a date for the dance, standing up to the bully) also felt a bit forced and too simplistic. And on top of all that, I felt the characters were fairly one-dimensional.
> 
> And yet I love the series, and it will never be forgotten.



The world of Fantasy and Sci-fi will obviously have to approach themes from a different perspective.  Something a bit more alegorical.  I thought the Potter series was great.  There were TONS of reoccurring themes in there.  Good Vs. Evil for one.  How about a bit of Tolkeinish 'the little people can do great things'  DEATH...a strong theme....revenge....There are a few political NAZISM kinds of themes running around as well.  Didn't the corruption of the Ministry of Truth (or whatever...I don't memorize detail....the counsel of magic...whoever) didn't that all remind you of a Hitler / Stalin / 1984 Big Brother George W. Bush theme?  

If you didn't find a theme ....(you...the collective you not anyone in particular) you weren't looking hard enough.

David Gordon Burke


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## SinJinQLB (Mar 7, 2014)

Oh man, you're right. I guess I'm just bad at picking out themes, and maybe a doomed writer for that.


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## Newman (Mar 7, 2014)

SinJinQLB said:


> I was just wondering how many writers here come up with a theme first before writing. Like you say I'm going to write a book about war, and then start building a story around it.
> 
> Or do you start thinking up a story, perhaps involving a war, but let the theme grow organically, maybe the theme ends up being love?
> 
> And do you find pros and cons with either or?



You got to figure out how theme works, specifically. It's won't be just "about war."

Some people start with theme. Others figure out the external plot and then construct scenes to mirror theme. Others don't use theme at all.

It all makes sense. But you got to figure out how to execute theme. Which is a massive subject. You got to answer that question before you can really answer your question.


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## T.S.Bowman (Mar 8, 2014)

KyleColorado said:


> \
> \
> 
> 
> ...



I suppose, using that frame of reference, I did have a theme emerge during my writing of Side Worlds.

It started off with a fella getting pulled into an unfamiliar (yet familiar) world and morphed into a struggle against an ancestor long since thought dead.


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## Morkonan (Mar 8, 2014)

SinJinQLB said:


> I was just wondering how many writers here come up with a theme first before writing. Like you say I'm going to write a book about war, and then start building a story around it.
> 
> Or do you start thinking up a story, perhaps involving a war, but let the theme grow organically, maybe the theme ends up being love?
> 
> And do you find pros and cons with either or?



For myself, it's whatever makes the most interesting combination. For instance, if there's something I'd like to explore, a setting or theme, I try to think of the most interesting combination of the two. Whatever that might be, that's what I want to write about. (Most likely, that is. There are some combinations that might be very interesting, but that I don't want to touch.)


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## thepancreas11 (Mar 8, 2014)

Story first. You'll find that as you write, you'll notice a trend in your characters and your actions. That's your theme. You can always go back and revise it in later.


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