# For The Sake Of Argument...



## Underd0g (Jun 30, 2018)

For the sake of argument let's say that someone has an absolutely grand idea for a book. For the sake of argument let's say that it is THE one that makes a huge splash. It's poignant, engaging and relevant now and for years to come. The reader has to pause and reflect every few pages. The person with the idea has many of the elements prepared, the twists, the turns and complex conflicts whose resolutions beg to be discovered.

Here's the problem: they can't execute the idea due to lack of skill and talent and fortitude. It's a truly legitimate idea, born of relentless reflection by someone who, in their solitude, created a world never before seen in the pages of fiction.

How does someone find a co-writer without showing their hand? Certainly you can't blanket appeals throughout the industry without watering down your project.

I have had the experience of looking for an illustrator for a children's book. You turn over your story and what you get is what you get illustrator-wise. You can't just find somebody that believes in your project and go 50/50. The course is pretty much set in the traditional avenues of mainstream marketing. Otherwise you just have to wing it and pay an illustrator out of you own pocket in order to self-publish. Are ghost or co-writers the same?

For the sake of argument though, it's not an idea that once you show it to someone, they can't punch holes in it. It is a best seller. In other words, it would be worth it to get it written.


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## MatthewSteele (Jun 30, 2018)

Underd0g said:


> For the sake of argument let's say that someone has an absolutely grand idea for a book. For the sake of argument let's say that it is THE one that makes a huge splash. It's poignant, engaging and relevant now and for years to come. The reader has to pause and reflect every few pages. The person with the idea has many of the elements prepared, the twists, the turns and complex conflicts whose resolutions beg to be discovered.
> 
> Here's the problem: they can't execute the idea due to lack of skill and talent and fortitude. It's a truly legitimate idea, born of relentless reflection by someone who, in their solitude, created a world never before seen in the pages of fiction.
> 
> ...




'Hypothetically speaking', In my opinion, this person who has a best selling novel idea has only a piece of the puzzle that is publishing a book. The idea for a story or book is the beginning. The writing of the book is the art of translating that idea to a language that people can truly understand. Then the last part is publishing and marketing the book so that as many people as possible are informed that this book is amazing and worth reading. 

I think the publishing/marketing part can easily be separated, and often is. Authors write their book and someone else publishes and markets it. But the idea part and the writing part I think are very hard to separate, especially if we're talking full length novel. If the idea of the story is yours, only you truly understand it and can translate it accurately. they can have another author help, and some skilled authors could probably do it justice, but they will never be able to portray it like the originator of the idea could and I feel the process of trying to do so would be very frustrating.

As for finding someone who could author the idea, that is a tough one. It is very unlikely that someone would be able to steal the idea and write out the entire story and market it with success. But that doesn't mean that they couldn't have some damage done by a disreputable person. I would recommend someone they've interacted before or know well. (I hope they know some good authors!)


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## J T Chris (Jun 30, 2018)

So basically, they have a million dollar idea and don't want to do the work of actually writing it themselves. Their idea isn't worth a dime.

I guarantee somebody somewhere has already thought of their idea and is already making millions off of it. You know what the difference is between them? One 
executed their idea.


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## Jack of all trades (Jun 30, 2018)

Left Behind was a very successful series, written by two individuals. One had the idea, the other the writing ability. I'd tell you to ask the idea man how he found his writer, but he passed away.

I think finding a writer is one of those serendipitous things. It either happens or it doesn't, and you can't control when or if it works out. I think the thing to do is to keep the idea simmering and getting to know writers until you feel a connection with one and want to risk telling him/her about your idea. In the case of Left Behind, I don't think the writer was a fiction writer. He had knowledge of grammar, spelling and punctuation, but hadn't ventured into the fictional aspects. He now works with someone else, I believe.


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## Annoying kid (Jun 30, 2018)

> Here's the problem: they can't execute the idea due to lack of skill and talent and fortitude. It's a truly legitimate idea, born of relentless reflection by someone who, in their solitude, created a world never before seen in the pages of fiction.



What lack of talent?! You just said this special someone was capable of creating a world never before seen in the pages of all of fiction. A person like that doesn't lack talent. 

You just said the person engaged in "relentless reflection". A person capable of that doesn't lack fortitude. 

[-(


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## Terry D (Jun 30, 2018)

Every idea is capable of being a bestselling idea. Ideas are as cheap as dirt. It's the execution that makes it a bestseller.


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## escorial (Jun 30, 2018)

man you should be a judge on dragons den.....


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## Winston (Jun 30, 2018)

escorial said:


> man you should be a judge on dragons den.....



UK to US translator activated: Dragon's Den = Shark Tank.


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## Bayview (Jun 30, 2018)

I agree that great ideas are super-common. It's the writing that takes the work.


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## ppsage (Jun 30, 2018)

In the first place, a novel (if that's what we're talking about) isn't ONE idea. It's like at least three or four per page. I expect the 'idea man's' role on a writing team, is coming up with most of those. If that's done, might as well get them jotted down in some notebooks. With those, if it's really any good, it shouldn't be too hard to get somebody interested.


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## Underd0g (Jun 30, 2018)

Wow, this is a cool site! I got me a w i d e  range of opinions.




MatthewSteele said:


> 'Hypothetically speaking', In my opinion, this person who has a best selling novel idea has only a piece of the puzzle that is publishing a book. The idea for a story or book is the beginning. The writing of the book is the art of translating that idea to a language that people can truly understand. Then the last part is publishing and marketing the book so that as many people as possible are informed that this book is amazing and worth reading.
> 
> I think the publishing/marketing part can easily be separated, and often is. Authors write their book and someone else publishes and markets it. But the idea part and the writing part I think are very hard to separate, especially if we're talking full length novel. If the idea of the story is yours, only you truly understand it and can translate it accurately. they can have another author help, and some skilled authors could probably do it justice, but they will never be able to portray it like the originator of the idea could and I feel the process of trying to do so would be very frustrating.
> 
> As for finding someone who could author the idea, that is a tough one. It is very unlikely that someone would be able to steal the idea and write out the entire story and market it with success. But that doesn't mean that they couldn't have some damage done by a disreputable person. I would recommend someone they've interacted before or know well. (I hope they know some good authors!)


 
Oh man, Matthew Steele, if indeed that is your real name, you were able to help me relate the experience I had with illustrators with the prospect of finding a compatible writer. It's a strong argument that the person with the vision would have to take a huge hands off and pass it on attitude. Could the one with the vision do that?

But you give comfort in the fact that ideas like this would be difficult to just steal. They wouldn't have the ending or the nuance. If I understand you correctly, it would be a totally different story.

Thank you for your lengthy, thoughtful response!




J T Chris said:


> So basically, they have a million dollar idea and don't want to do the work of actually writing it themselves. Their idea isn't worth a dime.
> 
> I guarantee somebody somewhere has already thought of their idea and is already making millions off of it. You know what the difference is between them? One
> executed their idea.


 
I had to reset my nose but I'm back. It's why I stressed "For the sake of argument". It would be an idea that hasn't been explored and remade. Lucky I have a thick skin. Actually, I know what the idea is and I haven't seen it in the movies, which is my judge for if it exists.

Thank you Chris, for playing!




Jack of all trades said:


> Left Behind was a very successful series, written by two individuals. One had the idea, the other the writing ability. I'd tell you to ask the idea man how he found his writer, but he passed away.
> 
> I think finding a writer is one of those serendipitous things. It either happens or it doesn't, and you can't control when or if it works out. I think the thing to do is to keep the idea simmering and getting to know writers until you feel a connection with one and want to risk telling him/her about your idea. In the case of Left Behind, I don't think the writer was a fiction writer. He had knowledge of grammar, spelling and punctuation, but hadn't ventured into the fictional aspects. He now works with someone else, I believe.


 
SERENIPITY, yeah, it could happen (my favorite phrase), although I could die before it does. Thanks for the uplifting anecdote!!





Annoying kid said:


> What lack of talent?! You just said this special someone was capable of creating a world never before seen in the pages of all of fiction. A person like that doesn't lack talent.
> 
> You just said the person engaged in "relentless reflection". A person capable of that doesn't lack fortitude.


 
I am a believer in collaboration. Being able to capitalize on a team's skills. A two man team seems like it would be easier to work together than three or more. I would think a person with valid ideas could be very poor at reading manuals or following rules of grammar, or even know how to start without being taught. Maybe it's a laborer with a lot of think time on his hands, but is very uneducated.

You may be an annoying kid,  but you make me think.
Thank you for that!!






Terry D said:


> Every idea is capable of being a bestselling idea. Ideas are as cheap as dirt. It's the execution that makes it a bestseller.


 
Terry, I would tell you how wrong you are but then we would both be wrong. Wait,... never mind, just let me say this: I think you also missed the premise of "For the sake of argument. All ideas aren't equal and cheap. I'm just going to disagree with you and hope you don't get mad at me because I am so appreciative of you taking the time to reply to my thread.





escorial said:


> man you should be a judge on dragons den.....


 
Who are you saying this to, me or a responder to my thread? What's Dragons Den?

Thank you for educating me as to another way of looking at my inquiry!!





Winston said:


> UK to US translator activated: Dragon's Den = Shark Tank.


 
That answers that, thank you!!





Bayview said:


> I agree that great ideas are super-common. It's the writing that takes the work.


 
Not a "For the sake of argument idea", and no I will not get tired of reminding you guys.
However I will point out that there are writers that get writer's block. I hear that's a thing.
Thank you Bayview!!




ppsage said:


> In the first place, a novel (if that's what we're talking about) isn't ONE idea. It's like at least three or four per page. I expect the 'idea man's' role on a writing team, is coming up with most of those. If that's done, might as well get them jotted down in some notebooks. With those, if it's really any good, it shouldn't be too hard to get somebody interested.


 
My experience with photography and photo editing is that A LOT of talent resides in files on computers and in notebooks in dresser drawers. It's a crime that people can't find the format or channel to capitalize on their ideas.

So many people could benefit if artists just gave up on their fears of being ripped off and put it out there.

I'm thinking you may agree ppsage. Thank you for your response and hopeful attitude!!


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## Bayview (Jun 30, 2018)

Underd0g said:


> Not a "For the sake of argument idea", and no I will not get tired of reminding you guys.
> However I will point out that there are writers that get writer's block. I hear that's a thing.
> Thank you Bayview!!



Writer's block may (or may not) be a thing, but I don't think it necessarily means the writer doesn't have IDEAS. I think it generally means the writer can't find a way to put the ideas into words.

In terms of the "for the sake of argument" aspect... it's pretty hard to argue about a total fantasy world, isn't it? I mean, a story IDEA that is "poignant, engaging and relevant"? The idea itself is poignant and engaging? I don't think so, and I don't think you think so either, or else your "The reader has to pause and reflect every few pages" part wouldn't make sense. The reader has to stop and reflect every few pages of the IDEA? No. The reader has to stop and reflect every few pages of the WRITING.

You want to see my ideas folder? I could do a screen cap, but that would only show one screen's worth of ideas, and the list of documents is much, much longer than that. Ideas are cheap. Executing the ideas with skill and craft? That's the hard part.


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## Underd0g (Jun 30, 2018)

Bayview said:


> Writer's block may (or may not) be a thing, but I don't think it necessarily means the writer doesn't have IDEAS. I think it generally means the writer can't find a way to put the ideas into words.
> 
> In terms of the "for the sake of argument" aspect... it's pretty hard to argue about a total fantasy world, isn't it? I mean, a story IDEA that is "poignant, engaging and relevant"? The idea itself is poignant and engaging? I don't think so, and I don't think you think so either, or else your "The reader has to pause and reflect every few pages" part wouldn't make sense. The reader has to stop and reflect every few pages of the IDEA? No. The reader has to stop and reflect every few pages of the WRITING.
> 
> You want to see my ideas folder? I could do a screen cap, but that would only show one screen's worth of ideas, and the list of documents is much, much longer than that. Ideas are cheap. Executing the ideas with skill and craft? That's the hard part.


 
Thank you for the second pass Bayview. You articulated your point very well this time. Even I get it. I also get that the writing is the hard part, hence my wondering about an ideas guy passing it off to somebody skilled and motivated. The writer would articulate the vision. I've heard that ideas are cheap. Are all ideas cheap?

However, I would venture to guess that among your lists of documents are gems of incredible worth. I would all but guarantee it. I wouldn't short sell yourself or your ideas so as to call them cheap, I know they have great value!

But I really think we are saying the same thing.

Thanks again!!


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## Underd0g (Jun 30, 2018)

But to give you all an example of passing on an idea to somebody else who may have the ability to execute it:

Million dollar idea: Make a frying pan transparent so that you only have to lift it up to see if the pancake is ready to be flipped.

Your welcome all you engineers and inventors.


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## MatthewSteele (Jun 30, 2018)

Underd0g said:


> But to give you all an example of passing on an idea to somebody else who may have the ability to execute it:
> 
> Million dollar idea: Make a frying pan transparent so that you only have to lift it up to see if the pancake is ready to be flipped.
> 
> Your welcome all you engineers and inventors.




Hahahaha, genius.


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## Annoying kid (Jun 30, 2018)

With the frying pan idea:  trading in metal for a transparent material which inevitably possesses less thermal conductivity is too energy inefficient to be worth the trade off of being able to see the bottom of foods without turning them over. 



> I also get that the writing is the hard part, hence my wondering about an ideas guy passing it off to somebody skilled and motivated. The writer would articulate the vision. I've heard that ideas are cheap. Are all ideas cheap?



Depends on who's hands they're in. A brilliant idea is dependent on being expressed by a skilled writer. Which you will really struggle to find without paying them  a salary. Writers have to eat and pay bills. You can't expect them to take on a large project for presumably a promise of a share in the eventual profits.


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## Underd0g (Jun 30, 2018)

Annoying kid said:


> With the frying pan idea: trading in metal for a transparent material which inevitably possesses less thermal conductivity is too energy inefficient to be worth the trade off of being able to see the bottom of foods without turning them over.
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on who's hands they're in. A brilliant idea is dependent on being expressed by a skilled writer. Which you will really struggle to find without paying them a salary. Writers have to eat and pay bills. You can't expect them to take on a large project for presumably a promise of a share in the eventual profits.


 
Even with crushing my frying pan idea, I think we have a winner.

I sincerely think you nailed it.

Speculation is speculation. I guess you would just 'serendipitously' need to run into somebody that would just happen to share the same vision. 

Thank you for that!!


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## Terry D (Jul 1, 2018)

Underd0g said:


> But to give you all an example of passing on an idea to somebody else who may have the ability to execute it:
> 
> Million dollar idea: Make a frying pan transparent so that you only have to lift it up to see if the pancake is ready to be flipped.
> 
> Your welcome all you engineers and inventors.



It has already been done. Google Pyrex frying pan. 

When you talk about finding someone else to execute a hypothetical idea, you aren't talking about collaboration, you are talking about writing for hire. It should be pretty easy to find a ghost-writer to write a hypothetical book from an idea. It wouldn't be cheap.


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## Winston (Jul 1, 2018)

Terry D said:


> ...When you talk about finding someone else to execute a hypothetical idea, you aren't talking about collaboration, you are talking about writing for hire. It should be pretty easy to find a ghost-writer to write a hypothetical book from an idea. It wouldn't be cheap.



Must be why celebrities and politicians are so fond of ghost writers.  When you have a lot of money but no time or talent, there's always a solution.  
And, like the frying pan, there really are few new and exciting ideas.  A person may think they've struck gold, but it turns out to be iron pyrite.  Gotta keep digging.


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## Underd0g (Jul 1, 2018)

Terry D said:


> It has already been done. Google Pyrex frying pan.


 
Oh, MAN, they explode... I'm sure glad I'm not being sued right now.



Terry D said:


> When you talk about finding someone else to execute a hypothetical idea, you aren't talking about collaboration, you are talking about writing for hire. It should be pretty easy to find a ghost-writer to write a hypothetical book from an idea. It wouldn't be cheap.


 


Winston said:


> Must be why celebrities and politicians are so fond of ghost writers. When you have a lot of money but no time or talent, there's always a solution.
> And, like the frying pan, there really are few new and exciting ideas. A person may think they've struck gold, but it turns out to be iron pyrite. Gotta keep digging.


 
I'm going to vacillate in my opinion about this subject. I'm an idealist when it comes to ideas. I just hate to see things die on the vine. I've seen photographers so jealous of losing their work product, that their beautiful photographs just sit languishing on their computers. They won't take a risk with somebody with an idea for marketing. Well maybe their heirs will do something with them.

I will always speculate that there would be value in collaboration. 

I've been monitoring threads where there is an effort to find ideas, a new vampire hierarchy, a new conflict, a new apocalypse scenario, a new vampire. I don't think writers wouldn't want to be a part of a new 'Lord of the Rings' or 'Harry Potter', I think there isn't the faith that there is one for them out there. If a writer believed it would happen, would they still call for a windfall up front?

But I go back to the default thought because of my experience with artists and illustrators. I've commissioned mural art and it all depends on the hunger of the artist, never their faith in their own talent. If artists depended on the faith they have in their talent, they would starve. But if they believed in themselves, man what a ride they could go on.

Thank you both for humoring me!!


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## Bayview (Jul 1, 2018)

Underd0g said:


> But I go back to the default thought because of my experience with artists and illustrators. I've commissioned mural art and it all depends on the hunger of the artist, never their faith in their own talent. If artists depended on the faith they have in their talent, they would starve. But if they believed in themselves, man what a ride they could go on.
> 
> Thank you both for humoring me!!



But... when you commission artists, that's you having an idea and then paying someone to execute the idea for you, right? That's... what a ghostwriter is. Have you ever had luck working with an artist by saying: 'I'll give you the idea for what I want you to produce, you produce it, and we'll split the profits down the middle?'

I'm guessing not. Because artists have their own ideas, _and _they have the skill to execute them, so why would they need you?

I think this may come down to you overvaluing your idea, or thinking that ideas are the key part of a creative work. Think of the best sellers of the past fifty years, boil them down to the idea level, and see if there's really anything all that special about them. I'm going to guess there isn't. I mean, how many other MG "chosen-one" novels with magic were there before Harry Potter turned the publishing world upside down? That series was successful because of the execution, not the idea.


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## Jack of all trades (Jul 1, 2018)

Left Behind.

A successful series that was a collaboration between a minister and a biographer.


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## J T Chris (Jul 1, 2018)

Didn't Bill Clinton just give an idea to James Patterson to write for him?


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## Jack of all trades (Jul 1, 2018)

What comprises an idea?

Is the Harry Potter idea simply a chosen one in a magical world? Or does the idea include the magical world being alongside the normal world? Does it include many of the names having a double or hidden meaning, like Perennial, Diagon Alley, and Dobby? 

I think the idea can be much more than the basic. One can create an inspiring world, yet lack the ability to turn it into a story. Collaboration, not just ghost writing, is possible.

Of course, much of my work is collaborative.


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## Bayview (Jul 1, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> What comprises an idea?
> 
> Is the Harry Potter idea simply a chosen one in a magical world? Or does the idea include the magical world being alongside the normal world? Does it include many of the names having a double or hidden meaning, like Perennial, Diagon Alley, and Dobby?
> 
> ...



Does your work sell well? From the sound of the OP, it looks like s/he's looking for a blockbuster...


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## Jack of all trades (Jul 1, 2018)

Bayview said:


> Does your work sell well? From the sound of the OP, it looks like s/he's looking for a blockbuster...



I'm not suggesting the OP collaborate with me, so there's no need to make this personal.

Left Behind was collaborative and successful. Was it blockbuster? I don't know. My local bookstore had shelves dedicated to the series. Seems pretty good to me!

I've used this analogy before, but I think it works. If you're driving down the road and see a pothole, and you focus on the hole you're likely to hit it. If, instead, you pick a spot beside the hole and aim for it, you're likely to hit your mark and miss the hole.

Focusing on success is not really such a bad thing. Sure, there will be setbacks, delays, disappointments, and so forth. But if you never strive for your goal, you can NEVER make it. Being "realistic" can be a stumbling block.


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## Underd0g (Jul 1, 2018)

Bayview said:


> But... when you commission artists, that's you having an idea and then paying someone to execute the idea for you, right? That's... what a ghostwriter is. Have you ever had luck working with an artist by saying: 'I'll give you the idea for what I want you to produce, you produce it, and we'll split the profits down the middle?'
> 
> I'm guessing not. Because artists have their own ideas, _and _they have the skill to execute them, so why would they need you?
> 
> I think this may come down to you overvaluing your idea, or thinking that ideas are the key part of a creative work. Think of the best sellers of the past fifty years, boil them down to the idea level, and see if there's really anything all that special about them. I'm going to guess there isn't. I mean, how many other MG "chosen-one" novels with magic were there before Harry Potter turned the publishing world upside down? That series was successful because of the execution, not the idea.


 

Here are a couple of my collaborations. Here in South Texas I could sell the steer image like crazy if I could get the photographer to cooperate. It was my vision but I don't own the steers, photos or the copyright. It's four separate photographs and I knew and commissioned the digital artist that could edit the final image.

Same with the blueprint.

I got the customers and could get plenty more. 

Same with a few murals I helped create and sell but can't market.

I maintain artists lack vision and faith. Of course I've been cheated on some of my projects to the tune of thousands of dollars, so I get the fear too.


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## Underd0g (Jul 1, 2018)

Bayview said:


> Does your work sell well? From the sound of the OP, it looks like s/he's looking for a blockbuster...



Oh but also, this thread is a premise, a made up scenario, a what if.

But I'm definitely getting the feedback that I desired. You guys have some great insights.


Thank you Bayview!!


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## Underd0g (Jul 1, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> Left Behind.
> 
> A successful series that was a collaboration between a minister and a biographer.




I read that series. It caused quite the revival for a period of time.

Thank you Jack!!


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## Jack of all trades (Jul 1, 2018)

Some info on Left Behind.

https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw...ft-behind-series-leaves-a-lasting-impact.html


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## Underd0g (Jul 1, 2018)

J T Chris said:


> Didn't Bill Clinton just give an idea to James Patterson to write for him?


 
That kinda makes both arguments, more so the 'it takes money to make money' side.




Jack of all trades said:


> What comprises an idea?
> 
> Is the Harry Potter idea simply a chosen one in a magical world? Or does the idea include the magical world being alongside the normal world? Does it include many of the names having a double or hidden meaning, like Perennial, Diagon Alley, and Dobby?
> 
> ...


 
Here is a point that I haven't made very well. What if it were a story that truly spoke to the heart with all of the subtle nuance really speaking to the reader. What if it caused people to re-evaluate their lives but not from a preachy direction. Ala 'The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe'? 




Jack of all trades said:


> I'm not suggesting the OP collaborate with me, so there's no need to make this personal.
> 
> Left Behind was collaborative and successful. Was it blockbuster? I don't know. My local bookstore had shelves dedicated to the series. Seems pretty good to me!
> 
> ...


 
Of course now I've got people thinking perhaps I believe I have that blockbuster foundational story. I don't think I ever said that.


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## Bayview (Jul 1, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> I'm not suggesting the OP collaborate with me, so there's no need to make this personal.



When you mention your own work, how am _I _making it personal? I'm just responding to what you posted.

And I'm not sure what's being proved by Left Behind? I don't think anyone is saying that people can't work together on fiction - it's done quite often. I think the debate is more about whether there's anything inherently super-valuable in an idea, without the idea being executed. That is, the OP posited that there might be an idea, that, in and of itself, was "a best seller". And I'm saying there's no such thing. An idea is just an idea. Best sellers come from the execution.


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## Underd0g (Jul 1, 2018)

Bayview said:


> When you mention your own work, how am _I _making it personal? I'm just responding to what you posted.
> 
> And I'm not sure what's being proved by Left Behind? I don't think anyone is saying that people can't work together on fiction - it's done quite often. I think the debate is more about whether there's anything inherently super-valuable in an idea, without the idea being executed. That is, the OP posited that there might be an idea, that, in and of itself, was "a best seller". And I'm saying there's no such thing. An idea is just an idea. Best sellers come from the execution.



I think that the direction you're taking would be a topic for a different thread. They (the other posters) are hitting my original intent pretty perfect.
Thank you though, I appreciate your participation. You are answering questions that now I don't need to ask.


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## Annoying kid (Jul 2, 2018)

The people with good ideas trapped in their head who offer writers a share in the profits eventually, or worse an opportunity to get the writer's "name out there", are like white noise to creative talent. *That many* people are trying to pull this off. Writers at conventions humour them just to get them to buy their product. 

When trying to sell their ideas to creators, everybody says they have the big one. The big idea. But guess what. Someone with a bad idea with a bad first draft, will be taken more seriously than someone with an amazing idea with nothing else to show. Why? Because the bad first draft can be packaged and sold. The idea in your head can't. 

This industry is a business. So they care about content, aka products. Not ideas. They can't invest in every good idea they hear. Hell I could come up with a blockbuster idea right now. In literally one minutes. 

Title : *Hell

*A man and wife are killed by a jealous incel psycho, they get sent to hell and are separated. They have to find each other and survive the tortures of the infernal. The psycho having stolen their credit cards and so on, is living it up and is considering going after their family next. Their couple are tested and are told that thei family will join them and why but their love endures through it all and as a reward they go to heaven while the psycho who killed them dies before he can do it and goes to hell and never gets out. The End. 

It's not hard.


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## Underd0g (Jul 2, 2018)

Annoyingkid said:


> The people with good ideas trapped in their head who offer writersa share in the profits eventually, or worse an opportunity to get the writer's"name out there", are like white noise to creative talent.





Annoyingkid said:


> *That many* people are trying to pull this off. Writers atconventions humour them just to get them to buy their product.
> 
> When trying to sell their ideas to creators, everybody saysthey have the big one. The big idea. But guess what. Someone with a bad ideawith a bad first draft, will be taken more seriously than someone with anamazing idea with nothing else to show. Why? Because the bad first draft can bepackaged and sold. The idea in your head can't.
> 
> ...


I may understand more than you realize but your example will help me explain mine a little better.

In your idea, what makes me want to change my life? I don't care about the main characters. They don't have anything to do with me. I don't care if their family is saved, if they get back together or if the villain gets his comeuppance. 

I want to resolve deep issues in my own life and I suspect that many people in the world want to also.

Annoying kid, I know you are trying to get through to me and I can't, and I mean it, I can't thank you enough.


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## Annoying kid (Jul 2, 2018)

Underd0g said:


> In your idea, what makes me want to change my life? I don't care about the main characters. They don't have anything to do with me. I don't care if their family is saved, if they get back together or if the villain gets his comeuppance.
> .



The terrifying imagery of hell might get people to change their lives but that's beside the point. None of what you just said matters because :

An idea > Grandiose claims of having an idea. 

You can make claims about how good the idea is all day long, there's no reason to believe you until you convince others it's brilliant. How many have you or the person in this hypothetical actually convinced of this? And what makes these people qualified to know? Then you have to go even further to convince someone it's so special to work on it for nothing up front. If you're the one who came up with the idea, you're inherently biased. So you'd need a consensus of people who think your idea is as good as you say. Preferably someone in the industry. Has the person had any feedback from the industry? From other writers, or the general public? 

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. What extraordinary evidence will you put before a writer to convince them your idea is a foolproof blockbuster?


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## Underd0g (Jul 2, 2018)

Annoying kid said:


> The terrifying imagery of hell might get people to change their lives but that's beside the point. None of what you just said matters because :
> 
> An idea > Grandiose claims of having an idea.
> 
> ...


 
Ok, since the premise of "For The Sake Of Argument" is being rejected by some, let me address the direction it has taken as this:

There is no writing idea in real life that could possibly inspire a qualified writer to become involved in a collaboration. The only way to get a qualified writer would be to pay them up front. This is because all undeveloped ideas are useless, inferior and have no value.

I can accept that.

Now anybody who believes there may be the possibility of a collaboration, who rejects the above statement, feel free to interject. For instance, what if a team of writers who had a similar dream, *JUST AS A HOBBY*, developed a relationship of brain storming and shooting ideas back and forth, more as a mental exercise than a money making project?


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## Bayview (Jul 2, 2018)

Underd0g said:


> Ok, since the premise of "For The Sake Of Argument" is being rejected by some, let me address the direction it has taken as this:
> 
> There is no writing idea in real life that could possibly inspire a qualified writer to become involved in a collaboration. The only way to get a qualified writer would be to pay them up front. This is because all undeveloped ideas are useless, inferior and have no value.
> 
> ...




Writers collaborate all the time. Not just as a hobby, but also professionally. It's quite common.

Are you okay now?


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## Underd0g (Jul 2, 2018)

Bayview said:


> Writers collaborate all the time. Not just as a hobby, but also professionally. It's quite common.
> 
> Are you okay now?


 
Lol, I'm not having a problem, I'm learning and growing as we speak. I'm unbreakable. I just don't want people who don't understand the premise to waste their time.


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## Kyle R (Jul 2, 2018)

Since we're doing this for the sake of argument, I'll present mine:

I'm not convinced that a non-writer can have a grand idea for a story. How would a non-writer even know that their idea is feasible, if he/she isn't experienced in the craft?

It's like the couch potato who thinks he can do better than the athletes he sees on television.

Such an individual might _believe_ that their concept is golden, sure. But chances are that it's simply ... not. At worst: it's terrible. At best: it's creative, but nothing that a thousand other writers haven't already thought of and/or attempted.

See, a non-writer simply hasn't spent enough time in the word mines, digging away at the cavern walls, to know what it takes to move a reader. To know the nuances of what works and what doesn't, page in and page out.

To see the carcasses of a million _grand ideas_ that already litter the ashen tunnel floors.

Not to be discouraging—it's great to have ideas and to believe in them. :encouragement: But I agree with those who've already pointed out that it's the _execution_ that gives an idea its soul.

Without the legwork, an idea is just an unprocessed nugget of wishful thinking.


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## Underd0g (Jul 2, 2018)

Kyle R said:


> Since we're doing this for the sake of argument, I'll present mine:
> 
> I'm not convinced that a non-writer can have a grand idea for a story. How would a non-writer even know that their idea is feasible, if he/she isn't experienced in the craft?
> 
> ...


 
Which again, would make a very interesting thread. A different thread. I'm starting to feel like mine is getting hijacked.

I would think that writers would be able to see the context of "For the sake of argument" as it relates to my question by now.

I once saw somebody take the phrase "The dominos would start to fall", which means the consequences would begin... and turn it into "Let the cards fall where they may". Which is a totally different meaning.

Pay attention people.


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## Bayview (Jul 2, 2018)

Underd0g said:


> Which again, would make a very interesting thread. A different thread. I'm starting to feel like mine is getting hijacked.
> 
> I would think that writers would be able to see the context of "For the sake of argument" as it relates to my question by now.
> 
> ...



But you're starting with a premise that doesn't work.

Like, if I said, "Okay, so... we all know trees are made of cheese. For the sake of argument, let's say one tree is made of super-delicious cheese that's better than all the other cheese-trees. How would one properly harvest that super-tree?" it would be pretty hard to have an intelligent conversation on the topic, wouldn't it? And it would be a bit weird if someone came along and pointed out that trees _aren't_ made of cheese and was then told that the thread isn't about that?


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## Terry D (Jul 2, 2018)

Underd0g said:


> Ok, since the premise of "For The Sake Of Argument" is being rejected by some, let me address the direction it has taken as this:
> 
> There is no writing idea in real life that could possibly inspire a qualified writer to become involved in a collaboration. The only way to get a qualified writer would be to pay them up front. This is because all undeveloped ideas are useless, inferior and have no value.
> 
> ...



I agree with the first part of your underlined summary, right up through, "...to pay them up-front." This is true because fiction writing, being a creative pursuit, typically has internal motivations. Even paid ghost-writers usually are writing their own ideas when not hired to tell someone else's stories. However, I reject the assertion that, "...all undeveloped ideas are useless, inferior and have no value." No one has written that in this thread. I know I didn't. I simply asserted that exciting ideas are very common. In fact, what has been said is that all ideas have value, that any idea -- sufficiently well developed by a skilled writer -- is capable of being a best seller. I think most writers will tell you there are no bad ideas, just poor execution. 

As Bayview says above, collaborations happen all the time in fiction writing. But those collaborations are nearly always between writers with similar ideas. In the example given somewhere above about the Left Behind series, the partners involved were both writers (yes one was a minister, but he had already published several books), and in the collaboration between Bill Clinton and James Patterson, It's just a high profile example of the same thing, Clinton has penned a number of nonfiction books before venturing into this collaboration with Patterson, so it's not just an 'idea guy' working with a writer.


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## Kyle R (Jul 2, 2018)

Underd0g said:


> Which again, would make a very interesting thread. A different thread. I'm starting to feel like mine is getting hijacked.
> 
> I would think that writers would be able to see the context of "For the sake of argument" as it relates to my question by now.
> 
> ...



Touché.

But imagine I went to a physicists forum and said, "For the sake of argument, let's say that someone invented a ship that traveled faster than the speed of light, but needed help constructing it. How would one go about finding a collaborator without giving the secret away?"

I would expect many physicists to take offense at the preposterous notion of a FTL ship even existing at all.

To many writers, the notion of a _grand idea_ (thought up by a non-writer, of all things) is much like the impossible suggestion of a FTL ship—it's hard not to take umbrage with it.

Hypothetical as the situation may be, it implies that hard-working writers are a replaceable lot—that all our toiling could rendered naught by some inexperienced layman with merely a flash of inspiration. :grief:

That said, there are some _idea farms_ out there, where stories are thought up for other writers to execute. Glasstown Entertainment is one that I know of (formerly _Papter Lantern Lit_). James Patterson also comes to mind. Both of them offer money for the writer's contribution—though both of them require some hurdles to get past before collaborating is an option.

With Glasstown, it's submitting an example of the writer's work. With Patterson, you need to hide under his car for an hour, then leap out at him while he's walking outside with his morning coffee.


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## Annoying kid (Jul 2, 2018)

> Now anybody who believes there may be the possibility of a collaboration, who rejects the above statement, feel free to interject. For instance, what if a team of writers who had a similar dream, *JUST AS A HOBBY, developed a relationship of brain storming and shooting ideas back and forth, more as a mental exercise than a money making project?*



Indeed, that's called a writer's group/forum. I know alot of people who just like talking about writing. 

But my overall point is this. There's no idea that's so good that it excuses you from developing it as far as you can with the skills that you have. None at all. Not even if you believe in collaboration. And especially if you're idle waiting for a collaborator. You said you don't like ideas being wasted on the shelf. Don't do that then. Go as far as you're capable, with whatever time and resilience you can spare.


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## Terry D (Jul 2, 2018)

Underd0g said:


> Which again, would make a very interesting thread. A different thread. I'm starting to feel like mine is getting hijacked.
> 
> I would think that writers would be able to see the context of "For the sake of argument" as it relates to my question by now.
> 
> ...



But we have been paying attention.

The only question in your OP was this:



> How does someone find a co-writer without showing their hand? Certainly you can't blanket appeals throughout the industry without watering down your project.




That was answered very early on by the suggestion of a ghost-writer. Your follow-up about getting writers involved simply because the idea was so good they would be willing to buy-in because they believed in it that much is what has taken this thread in its current direction. The phrase, 'for the sake of argument' would seem to mean you are wanting to discuss contrasting opinions (arguments). In a fantasy world where there are trees made of cheese, and oceans filled with Red Bull, you can hypothesize a writer so enamored with a concept presented by someone else that he would devote the months or even years needed to turn someone else's idea into reality, but the concept is just that -- fantasy. 

To boil it all down further; You asked, in essence, "For the sake of argument, if someone had a foolproof idea for a bestselling book, how would they find an author to execute it." That was answered as I mentioned above. If the rest of the responses don't quite fit with your 'for the sake of argument' qualifier, that is probably because this site's membership are, for the most part, people seriously trying to develop the real skills needed to advance their craft, and choose to discuss writing in real terms rather than hypothetical fantasies.


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## Pete_C (Jul 2, 2018)

Underd0g said:


> How does someone find a co-writer without showing their hand? Certainly you can't blanket appeals throughout the industry without watering down your project.



I'd ask them to represent their idea through a mixture of mime and creative dance. If it came across as a sure-fire blockbuster, I'd write it for them on any terms they'd care to dictate. If I wasn't sure, I'd just mime writing it for them.

Now, are there any other hypothetical conundrums you need assistance with?


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## Underd0g (Jul 2, 2018)

I think I figured out this is an emotional topic for writers. Some of y'all are just contentious.

Y'all may need more information. Not necessarily a foolproof story idea but where the premise comes from.

I am 60 years old and up to a few years ago, all of my ideas were in conjunction with my wife. We created wedding videos complete with slide shows of the bride and groom growing up. She made jewelry and painted figurines. She cut people's hair as a courtesy and was as generous a person as you will ever know.

We collaborated with artists and created murals and designs. She would turn my photographs into illustrations and we were working on my 'Andie's Mountain' idea together.

We had two incomes and could afford to commission artwork that we weren't capable of producing. We would sell it.

A few years ago, my wife began to not be able to discern the different tones and shading necessary to draw and paint distinctive images. She was managing apartments and one day I discovered that she was faking her ability to do the paperwork. Now she can't roll dice and move a game piece along a board.

I now have the unique position of seeing how people behave, both from the perspective of not having a clue of what dementia is and watching it from a front seat view, 24/7. I had to close my business and get a job near her at first, and then I had to quit and become unemployed entirely.

I spend hours at a time explaining the same things to her and listening to whatever subject has come into her mind, also for hours at a time. The only thing that can be on TV when she is awake is NCIS. My time to create is seriously hampered. There is no way I can continue my murals. 


My wife has had people betray and abandon her before, but now our families and friends are doing it en masse. The story idea comes from the total unconscious selfishness of mankind of which I was guilty just years ago. I can't be sure how I would be if the roles were reversed but I sure hope I wouldn't behave like I've seen.


Yes, I have a story idea. It's based on my observations for the last few years. I am a changed man and see things through a lens that is just not possible except for ones who have been through it. It's not cancer. I've been through cancer. It's not having a son that was run over by an SUV. I've had a son run over by an SUV. 

One of the reasons I've joined here is to connect. I watch how members here interact and make decisions on how I want to participate. I am alone as far as developing ideas and I'm not used to it. If it was an inappropriate question, I apologize.


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## Jack of all trades (Jul 2, 2018)

Underd0g said:


> Which again, would make a very interesting thread. A different thread. I'm starting to feel like mine is getting hijacked.
> 
> I would think that writers would be able to see the context of "For the sake of argument" as it relates to my question by now.
> 
> ...



I think your thread has been hijacked. I do believe that used to be against the rules, but some rules have changed, so it might be permissible now.


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## Jack of all trades (Jul 2, 2018)

Kyle R said:


> Since we're doing this for the sake of argument, I'll present mine:
> 
> I'm not convinced that a non-writer can have a grand idea for a story. How would a non-writer even know that their idea is feasible, if he/she isn't experienced in the craft?
> 
> ...



I disagree with the bolded part. Being able to use words to draw a reader into a world is different than being able to think of that world. It's possible to be able to think of Harry Potter and his world, including all the nuances, without being able to write about it in a compelling way.


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## Underd0g (Jul 2, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> I think your thread has been hijacked. I do believe that used to be against the rules, but some rules have changed, so it might be permissible now.


 
Thank you Jack. We posted at close to the same time so I don't know if you saw my post #48. If you look at my other threads you can see I am a hack, but I'm a hack with passion. My main passion which I had always shared with my wife was to connect. To me relationships are the most important thing in life.

I get sad and discouraged too easily now, you lifted me up. However, my wife makes me unbreakable.


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## Jack of all trades (Jul 2, 2018)

Underd0g said:


> I think I figured out this is an emotional topic for writers. Some of y'all are just contentious.
> 
> Y'all may need more information. Not necessarily a foolproof story idea but where the premise comes from.
> 
> ...



First, I am sorry for your losses.

I do think your question has touched a nerve. It happens sometimes. Keep on trying.


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## Bayview (Jul 2, 2018)

Underd0g said:


> I am alone as far as developing ideas and I'm not used to it. If it was an inappropriate question, I apologize.



I feel like you're shifting lanes, here... up to now this has all been hypothetical. When people responded with the understanding that you thought _you_ had a great idea you corrected them. You said " this thread is a premise, a made up scenario, a what if." But now it sounds like it's _not_ a hypothetical and it's _not_ just "for the sake of argument". You have an actual idea and you're looking for someone to collaborate with.

That's a different topic. I think you're still going to have trouble finding a collaborator who will work on the terms you seemed to be contemplating in your original post, but if you're looking for someone to bounce ideas around with, as you mentioned in a later post, that seems like a more realistic goal. I think you'll need to work through some trust issues, possibly, but hopefully that's possible.

I'd suggest starting by coming up with an outline of as much of your story as you're willing to share and posting that and asking for feedback. If someone on the thread seems to be on the same wavelength as you, maybe that's someone you could approach re. continuing to collaborate.

I'd also suggest giving up the "hypothetical" smoke screen. It's pretty hard for other people to stay "on topic" for your thread when you haven't actually told us what your real topic is.


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## Jack of all trades (Jul 2, 2018)

Terry D said:


> I agree with the first part of your underlined summary, right up through, "...to pay them up-front." This is true because fiction writing, being a creative pursuit, typically has internal motivations. Even paid ghost-writers usually are writing their own ideas when not hired to tell someone else's stories. However, I reject the assertion that, "...all undeveloped ideas are useless, inferior and have no value." No one has written that in this thread. I know I didn't. I simply asserted that exciting ideas are very common. In fact, what has been said is that all ideas have value, that any idea -- sufficiently well developed by a skilled writer -- is capable of being a best seller. I think most writers will tell you there are no bad ideas, just poor execution.
> 
> As Bayview says above, collaborations happen all the time in fiction writing. But those collaborations are nearly always between writers with similar ideas. In the example given somewhere above about the Left Behind series, the partners involved were both writers (yes one was a minister, but he had already published several books), and in the collaboration between Bill Clinton and James Patterson, It's just a high profile example of the same thing, Clinton has penned a number of nonfiction books before venturing into this collaboration with Patterson, so it's not just an 'idea guy' working with a writer.



My research shows the minister did not write fiction before collaborating. Do you have a link to something that shows that is incorrect?


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## Terry D (Jul 2, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> My research shows the minister did not write fiction before collaborating. Do you have a link to something that shows that is incorrect?



Not fiction, but he was a writer.


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## Annoying kid (Jul 2, 2018)

I've assumed everything you've said here:



> For the sake of argument let's say that someone has an absolutely grand idea for a book. For the sake of argument let's say that it is THE one that makes a huge splash. It's poignant, engaging and relevant now and for years to come. The reader has to pause and reflect every few pages. The person with the idea has many of the elements prepared, the twists, the turns and complex conflicts whose resolutions beg to be discovered.
> 
> Here's the problem: they can't execute the idea due to lack of skill and talent and fortitude.



I've also read your post about dementia and how the idea is personal. 

Again, despite the problematic nature of doing this: assuming for the sake of argument an infallible promise of a guaranteed hit.

Also assuming no ghostwriter or upfront payment, and that he's lucky enough to find a collaborator convinced of this, despite no content and no track record of literary success:

And assuming the person with the idea has no time to be hands on at the writing level beyond their pre prepared elements. 

Then he'd need to find someone trustworthy enough to not take the infallible idea and run. After all, ideas themselves can't be copyrighted. 

But assuming he can do that, the writer must also be someone with the will to work for you either full or part time, unpaid, for two or more years.  That person must have enough wealth, to see them through until they get the big payment at the end. 

And of course to guaratee a big payment at the end, you have to be able to guarantee a successful marketing campaign by other people. Sometimes good products fall short by poor marketing, but lets assume the infallible idea extends to infallible advertising. 

Lets also assume the writer is somehow capable of writing the other person's personal idea with nuance and sensitivity, despite not receiving anything more than an under developed idea. 

If we assume all that, then yes. He can conceivably find a collaborator, who will write the book for him. 

I hope that answers your question.


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## Jack of all trades (Jul 2, 2018)

Terry D said:


> Not fiction, but he was a writer.



Understanding sentence structure, when to use capital letters and commas, and similar stuff does not prepare one for creating a story or a make believe world. Those writing credits are the same as no writing experience. In my opinion.


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## Darkkin (Jul 2, 2018)

How is having published nonfiction the same as having no writing experience when, fundamentally the existence of the *published *works are quantifiable proof of *writing*.  Sorry, but the fundamentals, the mechanics and the creative process all apply to both fiction and nonfiction writing.  The logic behind that observation is unsound.  In point of fact, it is *more* technically regimented and demanding than writing fiction because of the requisites of the medium.

That is like saying a blues guitar player cannot learn how to play rock and roll or another instrument.


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## Annoying kid (Jul 2, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> Understanding sentence structure, when to use capital letters and commas, and similar stuff does not prepare one for creating a story or a make believe world. Those writing credits are the same as no writing experience. In my opinion.



I disagree. Someone who can write non fiction has a definite advantage over a non writer when it comes to fiction. Not only in technical aspects like organization, grammar and punctuation, but in a proven ability to see a project through to the end. A non writer is untested in that regard.


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## Darkkin (Jul 2, 2018)

Learned skills transfer across the mediums.  Fiction, nonfiction, and poetry.  Personally, I have examples of all these types of writing in my archives. Does the fact that I occasionally write nonfiction negate my _Darkkin Chronicles_ or my _Strangeways poetry_.  Does it lessen my credibility or ability as a writer?  (All hypothetical for illustrative purposes.)

  A post like this one featuring critical, argumentative prose according to the logic and parameters of the aforementioned opinion is saying that it should, that having no writing experience (e.g. writing discussions like this), will result better fiction. 

 The process is universal across the medium from the inception of the idea to the completion of the piece.  What it comes down to is the drive and commitment of the individual, not what they have written.  Authors who by the definition of being published writers, actually stand a greater chance of completing a project than Johnny Q, a self proclaimed writer with no experience who falls to pieces at the first hint of an honest critique.

Knowing how to read music makes learning a new instrument profoundly easier because one is already in possession of one set of fundamental skills of the discipline.  In the case of writing, it is a firm understanding of the mechanics.

And it is understood that opinion is merely that, opinion, but they are still subject to the quantifiable reality of accepted facts and arguable logic.


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## Jack of all trades (Jul 2, 2018)

Untested is NOT the same as incapable.

Fiction is more creative, or at least uses a different type of creativity, than nonfiction.

There are plenty of long term projects that can test or stretch one's ability to see a project through.


I'm not saying that writing a nonfiction book doesn't show persistence and follow through, just that there are other things that also show it.

I think we're going to have to just agree to disagree on this.  I've been through it enough to know I'm not likely to change anyone's opinions, and mine is equally firm.


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## Annoying kid (Jul 2, 2018)

Untested is not the same as incapable, but experience counts for something. The non fiction writer is ahead of the curve. The experience in discipline, time management, research, vocabulary, grammar, punctuation, format, consistent tense, conceptual reasoning all confers an advantage over the non writer. And to say that non fiction requires no creativity or even a different type from the brain is to not understand non fiction. Less creativity is required for non fiction is all. But someone who only jogs still has a fitness advantage over someone who's never run at all and will do better in the sprint if talent is equal.


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## Jack of all trades (Jul 2, 2018)

Annoying kid said:


> Untested is not the same as incapable, but experience counts for something. The non fiction writer is ahead of the curve. The experience in discipline, time management, research, vocabulary, grammar, punctuation, format, consistent tense, conceptual reasoning all confers an advantage over the non writer. And to say that non fiction requires no creativity or even a different type from the brain is to not understand non fiction. Less creativity is required for non fiction is all.



So you agree that less creativity is required for non fiction.

In collaboration the less experienced is working with the more experienced.

Collaboration can work.


Is a writer likely to collaborate? I don't know. It seems that most members here would walk away.


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## Bayview (Jul 2, 2018)

I've collaborated - it was fun. Wrote a novel-length fanfic that way.

But it was a lot of work, coordinating it all, and for something more serious, something I was trying to sell? I'd want to know what the other person was providing the collaboration. If not co-writing, like, sharing half the work (with me being confident the other person would write as well or better than I do) then... I'd want to be paid.


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## Terry D (Jul 3, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> So you agree that less creativity is required for non fiction.



Read _The Perfect Storm_, _Into Thin Air_, _The Devil in the White City_, _In Cold Blood_, or any one of hundreds of non-fiction best sellers and then come back and tell me that their authors aren't as creative as fiction writers. Non-fiction writers have all the same responsibilities as fiction writers do; keeping the reader engaged from page to page, developing characters in a way readers will care about, and presenting the narrative in a way that flows seamlessly from beginning to end, but they have the added constraint of not being able to invent characters, plot twists, and settings at a whim. So, no, non-fiction does not require less creativity.



> In collaboration the less experienced is working with the more experienced.



Which author was the inexperienced one when Peter Straub and Stephen King collaborated on _The Talisman_ and _The Black House_? Or when Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman write _Good Omens_? How about all the books Larry Niven and Jerry Pournell co-wrote, including _The Mote in God's Eye_, _Footfall_, and _Lucifer's Hammer_? Writer collaborate for many reasons, but to cover-up one's inexperience usually isn't one of them.



> Collaboration can work.
> 
> 
> Is a writer likely to collaborate? I don't know. It seems that most members here would walk away.



I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but I've never been drawn to the idea of collaborating. I guess that's because I'm too selfish with my ideas. I want to develop them, I want to explore my characters and get to know them on my own. 

Now, in an attempt to swing this thread back on topic, I think we made a good case that most collaborative fiction takes place between two authors mutually exploring a common idea, or between an 'idea guy' and an author for hire.


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## Jack of all trades (Jul 4, 2018)

Terry D said:


> Read _The Perfect Storm_, _Into Thin Air_, _The Devil in the White City_, _In Cold Blood_, or any one of hundreds of non-fiction best sellers and then come back and tell me that their authors aren't as creative as fiction writers. Non-fiction writers have all the same responsibilities as fiction writers do; keeping the reader engaged from page to page, developing characters in a way readers will care about, and presenting the narrative in a way that flows seamlessly from beginning to end, but they have the added constraint of not being able to invent characters, plot twists, and settings at a whim. So, no, non-fiction does not require less creativity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You have taken my remarks out of context. Nevertheless, my goal has been accomplished.


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## bdcharles (Jul 4, 2018)

Underd0g said:


> For the sake of argument let's say that someone has an absolutely grand idea for a book. For the sake of argument let's say that it is THE one that makes a huge splash. It's poignant, engaging and relevant now and for years to come. The reader has to pause and reflect every few pages. The person with the idea has many of the elements prepared, the twists, the turns and complex conflicts whose resolutions beg to be discovered.
> 
> Here's the problem: they can't execute the idea due to lack of skill and talent and fortitude. It's a truly legitimate idea, born of relentless reflection by someone who, in their solitude, created a world never before seen in the pages of fiction.
> 
> ...



I imagine there has to be a degree of trust. Without that, we really can't achieve much collaboratively. We _have _to show our hand and trust that our co-writer won't make off with it, and likewise they have to trust us that our idea is worth the investment, that we will continue to deliver throughout the project, that we're not just getting them to do our homework for us, that we won't fleece them come payday. And so on and so on. Trust. Much is founded on it; ignore it to our detriment.

Regarding "for the sake of argument let's discuss X", this being the internet, I wonder if people think it means "so that we can have an argument, let's discuss X"  j/k


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## Terry D (Jul 4, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> You have taken my remarks out of context. Nevertheless, my goal has been accomplished.



Since I quoted your post verbatim, I could hardly have taken anything out of context. But I am glad you somehow feel validated.


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