# I've got a friend who is starting a novel from scratch. What do you do first?



## shivanib (Jul 29, 2016)

I've probably 'begun' 3 novels...actually 4. hah.

I think I remember just jumping in and writing for my first couple. My last one I remember free-writing, jotting things down and then trying to whip up a rough outline with some goals to make an initial gameplan.

What do you do? What's your advice for a first time novelist?


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## Tettsuo (Jul 29, 2016)

Whichever way write, plotting or pantsing, the only way to finish a novel is to keep writing it.  Even in the bad parts, keep writing and don't look back.

The bane of a lot of writers is going back and editing what you just wrote.  My advice is to not do that until you're done with the chapter.  Even then, review the completed chapter once and no more.  Then, move on and keep writing.


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## Schrody (Jul 29, 2016)

What do you do? You just write. And write. And write. Practice until it becomes readable. Then rewrite, edit, give it to beta readers, then edit again. It's not easy, and it's tiresome sometimes, but only you can decide is it worth it. The main thing is not to expect success overnight.


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## ppsage (Jul 29, 2016)

Whenever this happens to me I consume one to two quarts of at least 80 proof liqueur. If I still have the condition in the morning, I repeat the remedy as needed.


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## Jay Greenstein (Jul 29, 2016)

My advice is to prepare for the task, if that's not been done. The vast majority of people who decide to write fiction are not aware that the writing skills we're given in our school days are nonfiction skills. And since everyone we know suffers from that same lack of knowledge, who's to tell us? But there's a lot that's not obvious through reading, because we see only the polished product, not the process, so while reading matters a great deal, it won't teach you that process. 

"Just write, so you have something to fix in editing," which we often hear, is great advice. But that advice assumes we know _how_ to write. If we're unaware of the difference between what constitutes a scene on the page as against the screen, can we write one? If we don't know what the scene goal does for us, or even that such a thing exists, will we make use of one? No one, during our schooldays, tells us that scenes on the page generally end in disaster for the protagonist, how to end the beginning, or begin the ending. And knowing such things as the three things a reader wants to know quickly on entering a scene make the job a _whole lot_ easier.

You didn't mention if your friend has done significant research into issues of structure and craft, but if they haven't, that's where I'd suggest they begin. You can always discard a given tool, but you can't make use of the tool you're not aware exists.


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## Terry D (Jul 29, 2016)

Write. Read. Repeat until what you write sounds like something you would like to read. Preparation is great, but tools are worthless until you use them. There is no substitute for practice. Everything you need to know is in the books you like to read.


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## Kyle R (Jul 29, 2016)

For me, having a basic idea of the story I want to write helps a whole lot.

I don't need to know _everything_ about it beforehand, but I definitely want to know a few key things at the minimum. Things like genre, who my main characters are going to be, and what the main conflict will be about. Will it be a vampire-alien love triangle? A smash-em-up superhero romp? A sci-fi epic?

Without knowing these things ahead of time, at least in some general sense, my writing tends to wander aimlessly. So, figuring that out is what I do first. :encouragement:


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## J Anfinson (Jul 30, 2016)

Some people work best with an outline. Some prefer to just go with the flow and adjust course as needed. Then there's those who somewhat outline in their head but usually end up taking the story in a whole different direction when an appealing idea comes along. It's schizophrenic in my head, honestly.


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## Schrody (Jul 30, 2016)

Jay Greenstein said:


> "Just write, so you have something to fix in editing," which we often hear, is great advice. But that advice assumes we know _how_ to write.



You'll never know _to write_, if, you don't write. Simple as that.


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## PrinzeCharming (Jul 30, 2016)

Writing is linguistic art. A painter never quits in the middle of a masterpiece. Why should you?


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## Newman (Jul 30, 2016)

shivanib said:


> What's your advice for a first time novelist?



Begin with the theme in mind.

e.g.
What message is _Cinderella_ trying to convey? That message is the foundation of the story.


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## Terry D (Jul 30, 2016)

PrinzeCharming said:


> Writing is linguistic art. A painter never quits in the middle of a masterpiece. Why should you?



Sure they do, especially if they realize the piece they are working on isn't the masterpiece they thought it was. There is nothing wrong with quitting on a project that's stalled, or that is going nowhere, or that you've lost interest in. This isn't work-for-hire where a completed manuscript is a condition of employment. I quit on two novels before I started and finished my third.


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## bazz cargo (Aug 3, 2016)

shivanib said:


> I've probably 'begun' 3 novels...actually 4. hah.
> 
> I think I remember just jumping in and writing for my first couple. My last one I remember free-writing, jotting things down and then trying to whip up a rough outline with some goals to make an initial gameplan.
> 
> What do you do? What's your advice for a first time novelist?


Hi Shivanib, welcome to WF.

My advice is.... write what you would like to read.  A good writing buddy helps. 

And be prepared to be awful. Experience and practice  make a big difference.


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## shivanib (Aug 8, 2016)

Thank you all! All great advice and perspectives to bring to a first time novelist. Will relay the info!


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## Sam (Aug 9, 2016)

The first thing I do is generate ideas. Then, I'll choose the one I think will be the most rewarding, intriguing, or challenging to write. Once I've narrowed down my idea to one and I'm ready to start, I'll write the jacket blurb. There's no real reasoning to this beyond putting an abstract idea into a more concrete form. 

After that, it's a matter of putting the idea into words. To that end, your friend will need to make the choice between detailed planning of every chapter, or doing it seat-of-the-pants*, and that's a decision that no one here can make for that person. 


*Most often referred to as "on-the-fly" writing, or "pantsing", and most likely derived from pilots who used their nous and aviation skill to navigate, in lieu of relying on instruments.


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## qwertyman (Aug 10, 2016)

Create your main character(s), know your MC intimately.  (What did he/she send mother for Christmas?)  

The reader reader doesn't have to like or empathise with your MC(s), but must, must, must, want to spend time with them. Then begin your story.

Good luck.


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## dale (Aug 10, 2016)

shivanib said:


> What do you do? What's your advice for a first time novelist?



there is no answer to this, except within you. i could say i was able to finish my 1st novel due to drinking myself
half to death, abusing opiates, and being suicidally heartbroken after a failed marriage. and that's actually the truth.
but does that help you any? i hope to god not.


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## Olly Buckle (Sep 28, 2016)

> "Just write, so you have something to fix in editing," which we often hear, is great advice. But that advice assumes we know how to write.



If you don't know how to  write it teaches you, editing is more than just 'fixing' things, it can be major revision, addition or subtraction. Before you have written anything you can not know if anything is wrong with it, let alone what is wrong, you could spend your life 'learning how to write' without putting down a single word, better to write something and learn from your successes and mistakes than to learn a bunch of stuff that may or may not be useful to you. If you write something it may give you an idea of what you need to find out and save you a lot of work on stuff you don't need, everybody's needs are different.


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## Phil Istine (Sep 28, 2016)

The best bit of advice I've had is to give myself permission to write crap.  It can always be fixed in a revision.


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## Ptolemy (Sep 30, 2016)

I've always been a big fan of "discovery writing". Which to me listening some Music outside of my preferred genre and writing while I listen to the play list for and hour or two. No notes, no outlines, just me and the paper. I've had some steady plot structures, character ideas, settings just appear in my mind by going on my own. Obviously SPaG is not very great but you can always go back and build/correct on your ideas.


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## Bishop (Oct 3, 2016)

First thing to do, if you ask me, is relinquish any hope that the first one's going to be good. Let yourself be a bad writer and keep writing and reading until the books start coming out good.


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## Book Cook (Oct 3, 2016)

Bishop said:


> First thing to do, if you ask me, is relinquish any hope that the first one's going to be good. Let yourself be a bad writer and keep writing and reading until the books start coming out good.



I don't think many first novels are as bad as people are talking; not if the writer honed his skill in other ways. The problem with first novels being bad is when people who just sit down to write for the first time decide to write a novel.


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## Sam (Oct 3, 2016)

Book Cook said:


> I don't think many first novels are as bad as people are talking; not if the writer honed his skill in other ways. The problem with first novels being bad is when people who just sit down to write for the first time decide to write a novel.



What should they write, then? 

You can spend ten years writing short stories and I guarantee you your first attempt at a novel will still be crap. You learn how to write novels by writing novels.


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## Book Cook (Oct 3, 2016)

Sam said:


> What should they write, then?
> 
> You can spend ten years writing short stories and I guarantee you your first attempt at a novel will still be crap. You learn how to write novels by writing novels.



The difference is only in scope and keeping up with your own information. If you are a good writer, and if you can get your thoughts in order, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to write a good novel on the first try.


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## Sam (Oct 3, 2016)

Because it's unknown. 

Just the same as you won't be able to score from a 30-yard free-kick on your first try, you still won't be able to score it if you spend your days practising penalties. 

Novels are different than short stories or even novellas. They're different in pacing, in foreshadowing, in suspense, in revelation, in dialogue, and in numerous other areas. The ability to write a good novel is not merely predicated on having one's affairs in order and being a decent writer. There's a bit more to it than that, and it's something that requires practising writing novels to get right.


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## Book Cook (Oct 3, 2016)

Comparing writing, which is essentially thinking, with something that requires hand-eye coordination is not an apt analogy. And how is it unknown? Reading hundreds of novels makes it known. 

"Carrie" was Stephen King's first novel. There are sure to be others out there. Though that research might prove difficult. I've not seen a lot of authors who talk about whether they had previous attempts or not.


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## Sam (Oct 3, 2016)

_Carrie _was not Stephen King's first attempt at a novel. There is a difference between first attempts and first publications. 

Reading novels is demonstrably not the same thing as writing them. One can read novels, but it does necessitate being able to write them. There are millions of readers in the world and only a very small percentage of them can write a good novel. 

My analogy was presented in that manner because there was no sufficient writing analogy I could draw on at the time, but if we want to argue semantics: writing a 1000-word personal essay will not prepare a student for a 15,000-word dissertation. This is why students write a mock dissertation in the first or second year of undergrad. It prepares them for their main dissertation in the final year.

It is unknown because until you have done it, you cannot possibly know what it entails. Reading novels and writing shorts won't prepare you for the moment when you're 50,000 words into a story and you realise that you have a massive plot hole, or a one-dimensional character, or any number of problems that crop up when writing a novel and which require more work to rectify than would be necessary for a short story.  

The problem here, as I see it, is that you cannot admit of a situation where novel writing could ever be different from any other writing.


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## J Anfinson (Oct 3, 2016)

Bishop said:


> First thing to do, if you ask me, is relinquish any hope that the first one's going to be good. Let yourself be a bad writer and keep writing and reading until the books start coming out good.



I can attest to this. It took me four years to figure it out, too.


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## Theglasshouse (Oct 3, 2016)

My thinking is a very standard view on the topic I think. That is if you cant write short stories you cant write anything. Not to mention it prepares you for longer forms of writing. A novel I haven't tried but what isn't obvious in which both have in common is how you acquire writing story skills. You need a foundation. Novels may need different skills and have different problems and might need different problem-solving skills. In my position I don't dare try it or I don't think anyone unless they can write something half decent as a short story. That means working by yourself is tedious and need help from others who are "good"readers. Another requirement is marketability. How will you sell yourself without making contacts in the publishing industry? I understand you need some sort of skill, even though the writer or person must learn how to crawl then walk. Just an expression but it can help people save the effort and time from into writing a novel. Also you need feedback. Without it, I don't think I could become a writer. Much less a novel writer. My long term goal is the novel. But I understand the skills are different for a novel, but both seem to need the craft of someone who can turn a short story into a novel. It is sort of what I have planned. But I know people here a lot of expertise, and share what they know. It seems to me the writing process needs a person to write a good short story to build the novel as if it were a ship. If I am wrong in what I am saying I know its because of inexperience. So competence can be created first. I might say if you can get enough ideas for a short story. I think these have a lot in common, more than separate things that are different. I'd rather see people fail many times as a short story writer than at  a novel. Novels though I am ashamed to say I haven't been good enough to write as having the basic skills. The thing is how to know the skills need to be learned by dedicating time, and that its unfortunate people usually write a novel first than a short story. But that is just my opinion. I'd rather try my hand at a short story to see if I can have what could be useful feedback for a good indicate and feel of basic skills. But there are very good writers here, so I feel afraid of disagreeing.


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## Book Cook (Oct 4, 2016)

Sam said:


> _Carrie _was not Stephen King's first attempt at a novel. There is a difference between first attempts and first publications.



I know there is a difference. That is why I didn't list all the first published novels of every author I've read. In his "A Memoir of the Craft", King talks about Carrie being his first novel and that he threw the first dozen or so pages in the trash. His wife, when she was emptying the trash, recovered the pages and read them. Then she told him to continue and, well, the legend was born. 

Prior to that he was only writing short stories and sending them to magazines to earn an extra buck. He also mentioned a writer--can't recall his name--who worked at the post office, who published (according to King) a great novel on the first try.

Stephanie Meyer woke up one day, sat down and started writing the Twilight Saga. Yes, you can argue that it is bad, but it was published, adapted into films, and it brought her millions. (Yes yes, writing is not about making money, you may say, but nevertheless money translates into recognition.)

Christopher Paolini's Eragon series is a first attempt at a novel. He was a bloody teenager when he wrote his first book. Yes, his parents initially published the book. But hasn't he had a movie based on his work? Isn't that too recognition even if he did rip off Star Wars and the Lord of the Rings as many who have read it claim?

The first novel *is *the most difficult to write. And as you say, the writer can find himself, after 50 000 words, in an imbroglio of a plot hole or a one-dimensional character. But then he starts rewriting, fixing, patching, transposing, removing, adding and so on and so forth. What he learned writing the first novel he can implement in fixing the said novel. After a dozen edits, it is still the first novel. 

If a writer gives up on his first work, then gives up on his second and third, and succeeds with his tenth attempt but never returns to those previous novels now that he has "developed" his novel-writing skills, it only means that his *ideas *for those abandoned works were bad, not that he was inadequately equipped to write a novel.


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## Terry D (Oct 4, 2016)

Writing a short story and writing a novel are only similar in the same way writing a two-and-a-half minute rock & roll song is similar to writing a symphony for an orchestra. The medium is the same, but that's where the similarity ends. A common theme here seems to be that short story writing is somehow easier than novel writing. It is not. In many ways writing a novel is far easier than writing an effective short story. A novel gives the writer time and space to explore and play with characters and ideas. A short story requires tighter focus and a greater economy of theme; not easy things to do well. What most inexperienced writers fear the most about beginning a novel is the time commitment. They are afraid to put in weeks and months and even years into a project only to have it turn out nonpunishable. This is wrong thinking. What's the difference between churning out one 90,000 word, bad novel and 20 - 4,500 word bad short stories? To become a good writer takes most of us time and practice. I say, "most of us" because there have been rare instances of instant success, but those are as rare as lottery wins and should not be used as examples of a career path. Achieving success in this business is going to take lots and lots of hard work. Many hours churning out words by the thousands that few people other than us, our families, and our friends will ever read. If you like to read short stories -- write short stories; learn the techniques of pace and scene setting which fit the confines of a restricted word count. If you want to write a novel -- start the damned novel. You'll learn as you grow. Don't think that you need to 'work your way up', that just isn't so. If it's a book you want to write, why waste time writing something else?

I read and write both short stories and novels, and I know that the two forms are very different from one-another. My first completed novel started out as a short story, but I rapidly became aware that the concept was too intricate to be contained in a short work, so I scrapped the story and started over. The opening scene of the short still exists in the book, but it happens about one-quarter of the way through the novel. I guess that would be my advice to the OP; when you look at your story ask yourself if 6,500 words is a large enough vessel to hold the ideas you want to examine. If not, and if you are dead set on the word count, then you are going to need to cull some of those ideas (saving them for another work) until you only have enough story to fill your target word-count. Remember, you can edit out excess words and phrases, and scenes, but you can edit ideas also. That's one of the big differences between short stories and novels -- short stories usually focus on a single idea, while novels can examine several.

Edit -- I just realized much of this response is directed toward the wrong thread. My comments about story length were intended for the Condensing short stories thread. Sorry for any confusion that might have caused.


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## Terry D (Oct 4, 2016)

Book Cook said:


> I know there is a difference. That is why I didn't list all the first published novels of every author I've read. In his "A Memoir of the Craft", King talks about Carrie being his first novel and that he threw the first dozen or so pages in the trash. His wife, when she was emptying the trash, recovered the pages and read them. Then she told him to continue and, well, the legend was born.



Carrie was his first _published_ novel. By that time he had already written the four books later published together as 'The Bachman Books' Rage, The Long Walk, Roadwork, and The Running Man. He had also written _The Gunslinger_ when he was in college. As for the others you mentioned -- and there are many more -- yes, first strikes happen occasionally, but playing the lottery isn't a good career choice. I have two unfinished novels in my closet. Books I started but lost steam on. They are not "bad ideas". Their timing was simply bad for me. I wasn't ready yet to write them to completion. I could pick up either right now and finish it. I now know how to do so. Just because you have a terrific idea doesn't mean you are equipped to write the book.


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## shivanib (Oct 7, 2016)

This is a tiny part to the prep, but one of the things I find gets missed a lot in prep is character motivation. So important for story arc and endings... and believability.


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