# Indie / amazon / ethics



## David Gordon Burke (Mar 11, 2014)

I was quite amazed.  
Browsing through Facebook yesterday I read a post from some author who promotes himself via one of those 'Paid Promos' web sites.  I recognized the name but couldn't recall why.  On said site you sign up, pay them $100 or something and you get access to their database of other Indie writers, get listed on their site, get a place to host your graphics and can interchange ideas with others.  I have a membership myself of the non-paying kind.

So this writer goes on a diatribe about how he had been contacted by another writer to see whether he would be interested in doing an Ebook Review Exchange.  
He states that he declined seeing as he considered it unethical and that it was akin to 'buying' reviews.  

Now I realize that the Writing Forums have a strict policy about vulgar and profane language so I won't use words like &#%!@?!", or even !&?@#!#% and especially not  #$@&% to describe the above mentioned Author but it turns out that the person that had contacted him to do the Indie Author Review Exchange was none other than MYSELF.  

And the SOB had the nerve to question my ethics?  Unbelievable.
Let's look at it this way.  Anyone is free to surf around Amazon and figure out that person a.  who reviewed such and such a book by author b.  also has a review of his book written by author b.  It's not hidden.  It's expected.  

Also, most people aren't going to read the reviews.  All they want is to see a little number up there beside the name of the book so they can feel good about the fact that someone was brave enough to go before them and read / buy the book.

And finally, HELLO...it's hardly a fraud or sneaky if the person (potential customer) can always take a look at the book by using the Amazon sneak peak preview function of 'Look Inside' and read the first 20 pages or so.  

On the other hand...how did this particular Author get his post onto Facebook via the Ebook Promo Web site?  He paid them.
So while he criticizes thoses whose ingenuity has the appearance of being some kind of Payola.....he has no problem with out and out, baldfaced, clear cut Payola.  It's ok to bribe someone (and everyone knows it) but not ok to appear to be paying a bribe.  

By this floater's judgement, attention to INDIE ebooks should only be given to those people who can afford to pay their way at some parasitic cyber superhighway toll booth.  And those of us that can't afford the toll should get ground under the wheels of the Hummers of success.

It's the first world vs. the third world alll over again.

How much do you want to bet that his book / novel / whatever is as rank as day old dog vomit?  

Some  people.  And their children.  

David Gordon  Burke


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## David Gordon Burke (Mar 11, 2014)

So I take my investigation one step further.  I search this writer on Google - Nothing, no presence at all.
Look at his two books - One released in Jan, 2013 and another at the beginning of this year.  
The first book garnered 1 review from someone who claims to be an aquaintance of the writer.  
I go back to the original FB post.  Nobody has commented on it.  There have been no LIKES.  24 hours have passed.
I reread the post. 
The writer asks - ".....Is it a good idea to practice this (author book review exchanges) or can it reduce my credibility as a writer?"  

Dude, you have no credibility as a writer.  You haven't even bothered to fabricate a FAKE credibility by creating a blog or an on-line personality or whatever.  All you did was pay some lame site to get the word out.  And both your books are floundering at the 500.000 mark.  

Contrary to my Writing Forums persona, I don't believe myself to be any big deal.  I gave away 700 copies of my English book and I've since sold about 100.  My other two books haven't sold enough copies to take my wife and I out for dinner.  And I (read my previous posts) am very PRO INDIE and would never question another writer's right to promote his stuff or his ethics.  It's beyond brutal out there.  

But this guy has got my ire.  

Aside from so many writers and gold rushers trying to make a quick buck off Ebooks it seems that it's also the new arena for posers.  

David Gordon Burke


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## dale (Mar 11, 2014)

you sure do stress a lot, dude. maybe if you spent less time blaming "the industry" for your low rankings....and more time spilling your creative heart
upon the page....you might not only have more success...but be happier to boot. or you could simply do like me....write...drink wine...and not give a damn.


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## David Gordon Burke (Mar 11, 2014)

dale said:


> you sure do stress a lot, dude. maybe if you spent less time blaming "the industry" for your low rankings....and more time spilling your creative heart upon the page....you might not only have more success...but be happier to boot. or you could simply do like me....write...drink wine...and not give a damn.



Hmmm.  So someone slags you....and you just let it slide.
BTW where was it that I blamed the industry for the low ranking?  I am very aware that the issue is not the industry, it's piranhas and vultures that have come out of the wood work smelling big bucks to be made by selling bad Ebooks to uninformed customers.  

You also assume that I am stressing over it.  
You also assume that I am not writting.  
You also assume I am unhappy.  
You do admit to not giving a damn.  Congrats.

David Gordon Burke


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## dale (Mar 11, 2014)

David Gordon Burke said:


> Hmmm.  So someone slags you....and you just let it slide.
> BTW where was it that I blamed the industry for the low ranking?  I am very aware that the issue is not the industry, it's piranhas and vultures that have come out of the wood work smelling big bucks to be made by selling bad Ebooks to uninformed customers.
> 
> You also assume that I am stressing over it.
> ...



lol. i just pay attention to people here. i find people interesting. you, according to your threads, have a definite attitude against 
the publishing industry. i've watched you many times be a crusader against the industry. i figure you're a bit of a marxist. which....
...i've read marx. he's a lot like hitler. much of what he wrote was true....BUT....much of what he wrote was lies. you, believe that
 the "establishment" publishing industry is detrimental to us writers, due to commercialism and blah-blah-blah...well, in a way you're right.
BUT...never forget that society defines the established commercialism. so you wanna blame anyone for this mess? you have to blame EVERYONE.
that's the way it is.


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## movieman (Mar 11, 2014)

Review swaps are against Amazon terms and conditions, aren't they? They may not enforce it, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Personally, I've never found Amazon reviews to have much effect on my books. I get five-star reviews and sales stay the same, I get one-star reviews and sales stay the same.


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## David Gordon Burke (Mar 12, 2014)

dale said:


> lol. i just pay attention to people here. i find people interesting. you, according to your threads, have a definite attitude against
> the publishing industry. i've watched you many times be a crusader against the industry. i figure you're a bit of a marxist. which....
> ...i've read marx. he's a lot like hitler. much of what he wrote was true....BUT....much of what he wrote was lies. you, believe that
> the "establishment" publishing industry is detrimental to us writers, due to commercialism and blah-blah-blah...well, in a way you're right.
> ...



Ok.  I can definitely see where you are coming from although Marxist as a term defines you a lot more than me.  You're from the US, right?  
Never use the term myself.
I am not against the industry as a whole since I am not interested in the conventional publishing industry in the least.  I for one am an English speaker / writer living in Mexico so there is NO industry or market for what I do.  That leaves the INDIE  side of publishing or nothing.
As far as my socialist tendencies...is it necessity to apologize for or justify an anti-mega-corporate-consumerism-capitalism attitude?  Of course it runs against the tide of conformity which always upsets a lot of people.  Not praying at the church of the Holy Dollar sign is of course the first sign or a crazy person.  
That doesn't at all make me a crusader against the industry.  You would need al that chaff in order to clearly see the contrasting wheat.  

In other words it takes a thousand James Pattersons for one Cormac McCarthy to emerge.  James Patterson and his ilk are not the industry.  They are a small percent that represent the worst of the industry.  

I can easily agree that to a large extent the blame falls on people.  Then again, in the word of supply and demand it's not always the demand that comes first.  What often comes first is someone who is willing to sell a garbage product in order to make a pile of money.  What  is true for some commercial fiction is true for pop music and cigarrettes and sugary pastries that cause obesity problems in children.  

And this is a whole pile of blah, blah, blah ... in the end you say blame the people.  I started this thread in amazement at another INDIE who instead of showing a little solidarity, decided to out me in a public forum for a lack of ethics.   

I do invite you to come out of the closet as far as your political, moral and commercial beliefs.  For a WF Vetran you sure like to stay as far from the fray as possible.

David Gordon Burke


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## David Gordon Burke (Mar 12, 2014)

movieman said:


> Review swaps are against Amazon terms and conditions, aren't they? They may not enforce it, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.
> 
> Personally, I've never found Amazon reviews to have much effect on my books. I get five-star reviews and sales stay the same, I get one-star reviews and sales stay the same.



I do not believe they are against Amazon policy at all.  Seeing as Amazon bought Goodreads which is becoming the number one place for self promotion by Indie authors, I'd guess no.  There are about 10 Goodreads groups that exchange and promote author exchanges.  If you can give a link to some kind of Amazon guideline against this....great.  

David Gordon Burke

David Gordon Burke


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## dale (Mar 12, 2014)

David Gordon Burke said:


> I do invite you to come out of the closet as far as your political, moral and commercial beliefs.  For a WF Vetran you sure like to stay as far from the fray as possible.
> 
> David Gordon Burke



lol. i don't even know what the "fray" is, dwog. i just be me. or...at least be as "me" as possible here without being banned.


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## dale (Mar 12, 2014)

as far as your attitudes, dave...i actually do understand the frustration. i've just come to the conclusion that the only way to 
climb a ladder is to place your feet on the rungs. now...you can kick these rungs or even cut them on the way up the ladder.......
but if you wanna climb? the ladder seems the most realistic choice. you can only destroy it from the top, though.


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## movieman (Mar 13, 2014)

David Gordon Burke said:


> I do not believe they are against Amazon policy at all.



http://www.amazon.com/gp/community-help/customer-reviews-guidelines

Author review swaps could violate both:

"Sentiments by or on behalf of a person or company with a financial  interest in the product or a directly competing product (including  reviews by publishers, manufacturers, or third-party merchants selling  the product) "

and

"Reviews written for any form of compensation other than a free copy of  the product. This includes reviews that are a part of a paid publicity  package"

Actually, it seems to be directly prohibited in the FAQ linked to from that page:

"To help illustrate, here are a few examples of reviews that we don't allow:


 An artist posts a positive review on a peer's album in exchange for receiving a positive review from them"


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## TMFlynn (Mar 18, 2014)

Aren't guidelines made to be broken? Obviously Amazon is going to want to project that it is protecting the integrity of the products on the site, but what they want is clicks and turnover. They aren't really going to say 'half of our customer reviews are fake but whatever.' If they are not enforcing the rule then they do not really care. I don't see anything wrong with writers helping other writers out. I don't think a few extra five star reviews will propel an author to the top, but it certainly can't hurt.


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## Caragula (Mar 18, 2014)

This is why I always look inside when checking out the books of writers on here and elsewhere that are self-published.  I want to trust their reviews but I can't.  The doubt renders the whole thing meaningless.


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## shadowwalker (Mar 18, 2014)

There was a discussion on another site about authors not being allowed to review other authors - but if I recall it was within the same genre. Sorry I don't have a link...

But, David, aside from your political leanings (which I have absolutely no interest in), I can understand the rant here. Really. But now that you've put it up, it's time to forget the guy. It was probably time to forget the guy before you googled him. Let's face it - over time you (and every other writer) are going to get reviews which not only trash your writing, but cast aspersions on your lineage, among other things. Now, we can fume and fuss and hunt them down - or we can accept that that's what happens when we put ourselves out in the public eye and ignore them. And yes, people with money can do things people without money can't. It's been that way since commerce was invented, whether it was barter or coinage. Being a person who has never had much money, I learned long ago that, again, this is something to accept and move on from. Personally, I think life has enough stresses we can't avoid without creating more for ourselves.


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## movieman (Mar 18, 2014)

TMFlynn said:


> They aren't really going to say 'half of our customer reviews are fake but whatever.' If they are not enforcing the rule then they do not really care.



Amazon have deleted a lot of reviews that they believe violate their guidelines. They generally seem to be overzealous, not under, because they want people to trust their reviews.


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## dither (Mar 18, 2014)

dale said:


> write...drink wine...and not give a damn.



Sounds good t'me.O


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