# it's almost "national man-hater's day"



## dale (Jun 18, 2016)

so what will you other dads be doing? i know i'm supposed to be hating myself for being a man nowadays
on this occasion....but you know what? don't think that's gonna happen. ha ha


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## Winston (Jun 19, 2016)

White Male Father checking in.
According to depictions of my stereotype in the mainstream media, I'm not sure if I should be inept, evil or some fusion of both.
Think I'll watch some old episodes of "Married With Children" and channel my inner Al Bundy.  

In all seriousness, it's a joke.  If a guy tries to be sober, serious and moral, you end up being a caricature of some 1950's pipe smoking, sweater wearing, Edsel driving uptight a-hole.
I hate that forced dichotomy.  Idiot dad or jerk dad.  We're the last group that can be stereotyped with impunity.

Happy Father's Day.  Just don't make anyone feel bad by... doing anything.  Shut up and pay your penance.


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## ppsage (Jun 19, 2016)

I'm really enjoying the Grandpa thing, more than Father I think I'd conclude, if I could remember any of that. Nobody ever took me seriously as a man, that I know of, but I'm pretty sure that was more personal than societal. I tended to bring stuff like that on myself, back in the day.


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## Sonata (Jun 19, 2016)

Having divorced my husband  [should have never married him]  and then lost my Father when he was only 63 - I have no idea what this thread is supposed to be about.

But whatever it is, I heartily agree.  I mean who needs men?  Smelly socks to collect from everywhere and put in the washing machine with clothes pegs on your nose - and we will not mention the underpants...

...no thanks, you can keep your men and I will keep my sanity.

And my sense of smell.


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## Smith (Jun 19, 2016)

Shame on us for being straight, white men. Never been a time in history when reverse racism and male hatred were cooler than now.

Happy Father's Day!


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## Phil Istine (Jun 19, 2016)

There's no need for anyone to hate me for being white, male, or any other category.  If I love myself, what others think matters not a jot


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## Plasticweld (Jun 19, 2016)

On Father's Day I am reminded how fortunate I am.  Both my kids have turned out very well, I am proud as hell for what they have accomplished and along with PPsage, being a Grandfather had added a whole new dimension to my life. 


I am the old fashion guy that has long fell out of fashion, my kids were raise with acknowledging God.  They were rewarded for success and hard work, pretty much punished for anything thing less.  In the age of games where everybody wins, and nobody loses, my kids were clearly taught that throwing yourself at any problem with all your might is what is expected and that only losers show up and just go through the paces. The God, Guns and Guts is not just a saying around here.


My kids were taught that life is not fair, that they are entitled to nothing and that more than likely they will be the ones to help someone else.  Both my kids were made to take first aid, both were life guards when they were young, both always carry a knife and own guns and know how use them. They are the ones who jump into help, not stand there and wonder what to do.


As a politically un correct dad I am proud to say that I raised two very un-politically correct children, that are passing on those basic values to their kids.  While viewed by some as a caveman... I am very happy and very proud ...Today!


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## dither (Jun 19, 2016)

The day will pass without any mention in the dither household.
For him, every day is a " no-recognition day" and that is set in stone.


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## midnightpoet (Jun 19, 2016)

My son's birthday coincides with Father's day.  I told him when he was grown that he didn't have to give me a father's day gift, in return, I wouldn't give him any birthday presents - both of us would save money.  He hardily agreed - cheap minds think alike!:icon_joker:


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## Gumby (Jun 19, 2016)

This is the second Father's Day since my dad passed. 

Happy Father's Day, Dad! I miss you!







  To all you Dad's out there!


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## dither (Jun 19, 2016)

Gumby,

"liked" seems so inappropriate.
I feel and commiserate.


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## Kevin (Jun 19, 2016)

Sonata said:


> Having divorced my husband  [should have never married him]  and then lost my Father when he was only 63 - I have no idea what this thread is supposed to be about.
> 
> But whatever it is, I heartily agree.  I mean who needs men?  Smelly socks to collect from everywhere and put in the washing machine with clothes pegs on your nose - and we will not mention the underpants...
> 
> ...


oh dear... Those were the old days. Men no longer leave their brown eyes...


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## aj47 (Jun 19, 2016)

My dad passed 28 years ago. And while I don't buy the watching me from yonder heavens thing, I do think that as long as we remember, our people are never truly gone.  So I'll play cribbage with my kids today and think of him. Cribbage was his game.


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## dither (Jun 19, 2016)

astroannie said:


> My dad passed 28 years ago. And while I don't buy the watching me from yonder heavens thing, I do think that as long as we remember, our people are never truly gone.  So I'll play cribbage with my kids today and think of him. Cribbage was his game.



Now that, i like.


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## DruidPeter (Jun 19, 2016)

I'll be going to church with my dad and spending time with him. I love him very much. He's getting older, and while I do think he's got quite a few years left in him, I want to spend more time with him. I don't know... it feels awkward saying something like that out loud. I do love him very much, though, me and my sisters.


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## dale (Jun 19, 2016)

yeah. i started the thread as kind of a joke after seeing a couple women on facebook change the name of it to "single mother's day"..
....but anyway...yeah...a shout out to my dad, too. a great man i was lucky to have raising my silly ass....


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## aj47 (Jun 19, 2016)

Well, I've been a single mom ... and I see their point.  

The day shouldn't be about celebrating the contribution of a chromosome, but about celebrating the ongoing contribution to the growth of a child.

Guys who only want to be fathers one day a year are sleazeballs.  And the women who were impregnated by them are rightfully upset.


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## dither (Jun 19, 2016)

astroannie said:


> Well, I've been a single mom ... and I see their point.
> 
> The day shouldn't be about celebrating the contribution of a chromosome, but about celebrating the ongoing contribution to the growth of a child.
> 
> Guys who only want to be fathers one day a year are sleazeballs.  And the women who were impregnated by them are rightfully upset.



Can't disagree with that.

Again, i can't click on the "like tab" but it is what it is.


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## dale (Jun 19, 2016)

astroannie said:


> Well, I've been a single mom ... and I see their point.
> 
> The day shouldn't be about celebrating the contribution of a chromosome, but about celebrating the ongoing contribution to the growth of a child.
> 
> Guys who only want to be fathers one day a year are sleazeballs.  And the women who were impregnated by them are rightfully upset.



well, maybe if women wouldn't be spreading their legs who they surely know isn't gonna be worth a shit as a dad? 
those kind of things wouldn't happen. but no woman needs to take it out on me or any other dad out there that she
decided to fuck a deadbeat. thank you.


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## Sleepwriter (Jun 19, 2016)

dale said:


> yeah. i started the thread as kind of a joke after seeing a couple women on facebook change the name of it to "single mother's day"..
> ....but anyway...yeah...a shout out to my dad, too. a great man i was lucky to have raising my silly ass....
> 
> View attachment 14465




I can understand that, they are both mom and dad.  I was the same for my daughter from the time she was 3 on.  She calls me on Mother's Day as well.


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## dither (Jun 19, 2016)

dale said:


> well, maybe if women wouldn't be spreading their legs who they surely know isn't gonna be worth a shit as a dad?
> those kind of things wouldn't happen. but no woman needs to take it out on me or any other dad out there that she
> decided to fuck a deadbeat. thank you.



Interesting perspective there dale.


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## aj47 (Jun 19, 2016)

dale said:


> well, maybe if women wouldn't be spreading their legs who they surely know isn't gonna be worth a shit as a dad?
> those kind of things wouldn't happen. but no woman needs to take it out on me or any other dad out there that she
> decided to fuck a deadbeat. thank you.



You're welcome, Dale. I just want your deadbeat detector for my daughter.  

My now ex-husband didn't quit his job till I was pregnant.  So I didn't know he was a deadbeat until after I'd gotten the walk down the aisle and the honeymoon and stuff.   It's kinda hard to keep 'em together when (at the time) sex was considered a "marital right" in the state where I lived.  Heck, when we separated, he kicked in my door, but it wasn't trespass because we weren't officially divorced yet.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Jun 19, 2016)

How did I know I was going to make an appearance?

Okay, gang, no debates and no personal attacks, okay? Let's celebrate the day for what it is and not for what screw ups the other side is.


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## dale (Jun 19, 2016)

dither said:


> Interesting perspective there dale.



lol. it's the truth. these angry ass women have 364 other days a year to pitch a fit about the bad choice they made
for intercourse...why choose "father's day" as the one single day to act like a cunt? i don't do that on mother's day. 
i wish my mom, my kid's mom, and every other mom out there a happy mother's day. i don't turn it into a "woman hating
day". why? because i have 364 other days a year to be a woman hater. why would i wanna pitch a fit on mother's day?


editosted this before seeing the warning.


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## dither (Jun 19, 2016)

Yeah well,
i don't get it either.


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## Kevin (Jun 19, 2016)

It's a day to wonder and reflect, compare and uhm... put on a good face and attitude,  and don't think bad thoughts. Dinner and what the heck- work tomorrow.


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## Phil Istine (Jun 19, 2016)

I have another angle on this.  Although I'm approaching 60, I never got around to doing the father thing.  My two main relationships were with women who already had kids, so I spent part of my adult life being a sort of stand-in.  No problem as those were the choices I made.
The things that piss me off though are with my father, now in his late 80s, and almost completely estranged since I was 16 (I was turfed out for not believing in his brand of sky monster).  I did try when I got older but as far as I'm concerned, he can go **** himself.  The next time we will be in the same room will probably be at his funeral - if anyone bothers to tell me he's died or if I can be arsed to travel 200 miles to go to it.
Sorry if this puts a damper on celebrations.  I sometimes borrow other people's fathers for things like this


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## dale (Jun 19, 2016)

Phil Istine said:


> I have another angle on this.  Although I'm approaching 60, I never got around to doing the father thing.  My two main relationships were with women who already had kids, so I spent part of my adult life being a sort of stand-in.  No problem as those were the choices I made.
> The things that piss me off though are with my father, now in his late 80s, and almost completely estranged since I was 16 (I was turfed out for not believing in his brand of sky monster).  I did try when I got older but as far as I'm concerned, he can go **** himself.  The next time we will be in the same room will probably be at his funeral - if anyone bothers to tell me he's died or if I can be arsed to travel 200 miles to go to it.
> Sorry if this puts a damper on celebrations.  I sometimes borrow other people's fathers for things like this



lol. no worries. i think you're a bit late to "put a damper' on this thread celebration. ha ha


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## Winston (Jun 19, 2016)

Well, like Gumby, astroannie and some others of you, I miss my father.  I wish he was around to do something for.

All I can do today is try to be the man, and father he would have wanted me to be.


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## DruidPeter (Jun 19, 2016)

It would seem that there have been a wide range of fathers in the lives of others, from exceptional and wonderful husbands and dads, to those who have left a lot of suffering and questions in the lives of others. To all those who have wonderful dads, we can understand what a great thing it is. But to those who have had little to no influence of a father in their lives, or have had abusive or deadbeat ones, my heart goes out to you.

I hope that, as time goes on, more and more people get to have wonderful fathers, and less deadbeats.


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## msjhord (Jun 19, 2016)

Every day is Father's Day in my house.  And Mother's Day and Grandparent's Day and . . . well, you get the idea.  Basically, we don't set aside one day to celebrate any particular individual.  We should be doing so EVERY DAY!


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## Tired (Jun 19, 2016)

The fact that so many people hate on men is ridiculous, barbaric... stupid. Everyone is human after all. Anywho, happy Father's Day to all the wonderful dads here today!


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## msjhord (Jun 19, 2016)

For every man worth hating, there's a woman worth hating, too.  Sometimes a couple of them.


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## dale (Jun 19, 2016)

reflections on this day now.....my daughter, for the 1st time since me and her mom split, called me to wish me happy father's day.
understand, she's only 6. so the years she didn't wasn't due to her personal feelings....just that her mom never handed her the phone
to do it. so i was thankful that old wounds between me and her mom eventually heal and we can be more civil. but it made my day
when she called. then i'm out in the garage listening to the radio, and "moving out" by billy joel comes on. that song has a kind of meaning
between me and my kid's mom. and while it was playing, i thought..."now all they need to do is play 'goodbye yellow brick road" by elton john
and both my ex-wives will be covered. you know what? "goodbye yellow brick road" came on next. i was floored. and then...after that, 
they played "evil woman". evil women has never been a favorite song of mine...i really don't even like it. but then the pattern hit me.
this station, for father's day...were playing all songs about devious women. and i thought....wow. are people getting it now? are people
finally seeing the destruction and deterioration which "feminism" has caused families and marriages? are people finally seeing that "father's day"
has become what i see it as now? a reason to hate men....but that we men are sick of it? because the songlist of the radio station proved that.
and the fact that my ex told my kid to call me also proved it. and this radio station is STILL playing what the "feminist" would consider 
"misogynist" songs. are people finally getting it? the horror of feminism?


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## msjhord (Jun 19, 2016)

There's a difference between being a feminist and a femiNAZI.  I am definitely pro-girl, but I'm not anti-man.  Been married to one of ya for nearly seventeen years now.  He completes me, he makes me be a better person, and I'd be lost without him.  Not to mention, he is the PERFECT father for our fifteen-year-old son.


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## Darkkin (Jun 20, 2016)

In all honesty, my dad never was worth the effort.  You have to care to hate and how can you care about someone who was never there to begin with.  Mom raised us, my grandparents, both sets, helped.  They are my family.  Looking back, it was a good thing, he let us be.  Whether from lack of interest, most likely, or maybe a blinding moment of insight, one can hope, he didn't interfer.  He let the peace stand and for my mom's sake and ours, I'm glad he wasn't there.


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## Phil Istine (Jun 20, 2016)

msjhord said:


> There's a difference between being a feminist and a femiNAZI.



It's a great pity that, for some, those two terms have become muddled over the years.


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## PrinzeCharming (Jun 20, 2016)

My dad is always the first one to wake up in the morning. I had work at 7:45 A.M. I didn't say anything to my dad. Not even after work. It was no other day. I am not the type to wait for one day to celebrate a person in my life (or lack thereof). The people who have always told me that I was fortunate to have a father in my life got on my nerves. Presence isn't always a blessing. My customers gave me the neutral, "Happy Father's Day." I told them, "Well, the ladies haven't said anything yet."


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## msjhord (Jun 20, 2016)

My late f-i-l is one of those men who should never have procreated.  Well, the once just so I could have my husband.  But he was a lousy excuse for a human, an awful father, and he left nothing but chaos in his wake.  Fortunately, my husband had the presence of mind and heart to stop the cycle and turn out better than his dad did.  I thank God every day for that.  I will still never be able to wrap my head around why my late m-i-l stayed with him through all his abuse and infidelity.  Abuse me, that's bad enough.  Abusing my children, that's unconscionable.


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## 20oz (Jun 20, 2016)

The dead bodies talk to me but their mouths don't move.


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## Annoying kid (Jul 17, 2016)

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/24274-feminist-fathers-day-2014-feministfathersday

Lowlights:

2. Strive to do *more* than half of the labor of raising a kid, building a  family and maintaining a home. This is part of living our feminist  values in our family and being a good role model for our kids and their  friends.

14. Use "feminism," "patriarchy," "misogyny," "sexism" and related words  in your everyday conversations with kids, and take time to listen to  their use of those words. They have brilliant insights about the  oppression they see.

17. Teach your kids about mansplaining and male entitlement and why it hurts all of us.

28. Speak up when you see unwanted tickling.

29. Teach consent *every day.* Teach your child that we need permission to  touch each other's bodies. Raise our daughters to be safety conscious  and to have a healthy self-esteem against the onslaught of sexism and  misogyny. Raise our sons to promote consent culture.

Happy feminist father's day!


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## Donnam (Jul 28, 2016)

Man hating was something I used to do completely unintentionally when I posted on social media. I used to put up funny quotes about men being hopeless in love, the kitchen or some other department. It wasn't until a man, who I highly respected, asked me what had happened in my life that I was so down on men that I woke up. The truth, nothing had happened but I was surrounded by female role models, who ran men down all of the time. Here I was carrying around all that negativity, and I didn't even realise it. I'm glad I stopped kicking the dog. I love dogs.


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## dale (Jul 29, 2016)

Annoying kid said:


> http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/24274-feminist-fathers-day-2014-feministfathersday
> 
> Lowlights:
> 
> ...



lol. feminism is the worst form of misogyny that ever has been. it tells a woman she is worthless unless she behaves more like a man.


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## Kevin (Jul 29, 2016)

despite the actions of a few, repeatedly and in many cultures, I don't feel bad about myself. I wonder at how they could do such things the same as I wonder about the little boy in kindergarden that unprovoked, socked me in the face to get the toy. I think if I were a woman I would have to be a ju-jitsu master. Just in case the right in the world needed some support in keeping it so.


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## Smith (Jul 29, 2016)

Here's the thing (and I understand this isn't what you meant, Kevin; just got me thinking).

If a boy in kindergarten punches a girl, was it because the boy saw her as an equal? Wouldn't that, in some circumstances, nullify any thought of discrimination?

If a male isn't "allowed" to hit a female for any reason, does that make females a protected class? Isn't that discrimination?

Personally I think it's all a bunch of bullshit. The patriarchy isn't real. Nobody is being oppressed without the victim letting it happen (similar to how the burden of responsibility is on the victim when it comes to "being offended"). And the one common denominator with feminazis (*NOTE* not feminists) is they've all got this false pre-conceived notion they're oppressed, but they think the best discourse is an-eye-for-an-eye.

Nerds are not oppressed in schools by jocks, anymore than females are oppressed in the United States by men. On the same token, dads of WF (dale), pay no mind to the revolting Tumblr feminists that want to write a sequel to George Orwell's 1984, called Big Sister 2084.

By pay no mind, I mean don't let them get you down. By all means call them out for their criminally misandrist hate.


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## aj47 (Jul 29, 2016)

I wrote a senryu about being offended ... being offended is the price tag of free speech.  The thing is most folks who claim to be offended by xzy are offended by proxy. They're not part of the group that they claim is harmed by whatever verbiage is being used. That's called entitlement.  Think about it.  Also, if you didn't see anything offensive on the Internet today, you're not surfing hard enough.

Rudeness is still rudeness, though. When you preface something with a disclaimer like, "This is politically incorrect, but..." then you are showing you are well aware that you're about to be rude.  

When I was growing up, there were things you Just Didn't Say in what was termed "polite company" (which basically meant in public).  Near as I can tell those are the same things that are covered by "political correctness" these days.  I think a lot of the reasons folks complain about political correctness is that there are more women and minorities in places where they didn't used to be so "polite company" has expanded to cover more territory.


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## Sam (Jul 29, 2016)

dale said:


> lol. feminism is the worst form of misogyny that ever has been. it tells a woman she is worthless unless she behaves more like a man.



Third-wave feminism. 

First- and second-wave feminism actually did something worthwhile. Third-wave feminism is largely populated by a festering collection of the most vile misandrists imaginable, who continue to harp on about non-existent problems, patriarchy, and male privilege, while choosing to completely ignore that they are the most privileged group in the history of the Western world. They spend their days playing the dictionary definition game, screaming sexism or misogyny every time a man opens his mouth, and generally making themselves look like the complete idiots they are. 

If you are a third-wave feminist, I don't apologise, because not a modicum of what I said above is untrue. Feminism used to be about empowering women; now, it's about encouraging them to play the victim, pre-supposing that they are little meek and timid snowflakes who need help in every sector of education and employment, and telling them to act in a way that spits in the face of every strong woman who fought to eradicate disenfranchisement. 

The problem, of course, with the few feminists out there who realise this and actively speak out against it, is that they are castigated by their own for "betraying their gender". If third-wave feminism was really about empowering women, it wouldn't act like a baying mob trying to silence those who have an opinion at odds with the party line. Instead, third-wave feminism acts like a totalitarian ruling power in a dystopian world, insofar as you're either with the regime, or you're against it, and if you're against it, you're an outlier. And what happens to outliers in groups? They get steamrolled, because anyone who agitates for something that is not in keeping with the general espousals of the group -- that person becomes an obstacle that needs to be removed.


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## Terry D (Jul 29, 2016)

Treat people in the real world the way you treat the characters in your stories;

1. Don't define them by gender, race, ethnicity, religon, or any other arbitrary classification.
2. Get to know them.
3. Understand that they aren't you.
4. Get over yourself.


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## ppsage (Jul 29, 2016)

> f you are a third-wave feminist, I don't apologise, because not a modicum of what I said above is untrue. Feminism used to be about empowering women; now, *it's about encouraging them to play the victim*, pre-supposing that they are little meek and timid snowflakes who need help in every sector of education and employment, and telling them to act in a way that spits in the face of every strong woman who fought to eradicate disenfranchisement.


Okay. I'm googling for any example that this is even partially supportable and finding nada. Can you help me at all?


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## Sam (Jul 29, 2016)

Sure, I can help you. Go to any third-wave feminist blog or YouTube channel and listen to them talk about how they can't walk down the street without someone saying hello to them (sorry, 'catcalling' them), how they are being oppressed by a patriarchy that prevents them from living their lives to the fullest, or a million other things that feminists complain about being subjected to on a daily basis. 

No, in fact scratch all that. Just type "triggered feminist" into your browser. It'll take you straight to exactly what I'm talking about. 

Do I maintain that all women or all feminists are like this? No, I do not, but many third-wave feminists are jumping on a buzzword bandwagon and believing the crap that they're being fed. There is no such thing as "the patriarchy", nor is there a single shred of evidence for the mythical gender pay gap that keeps popping in every third-wave feminist discussion, and so if you want to be a strong woman in today's world, you don't need third-wave feminism -- because it doesn't empower women; it treats them like delicate little flowers who need help in everything from getting through college, to getting a job, and that's not what I would consider a strong person. 

But it would appear I need to get over myself. I'm willing to have a rational, logical discussion with people about it, but you can't do that in the twenty-first century world. Because people have feelings and emotions and get too easily offended when someone says something they don't agree with. I don't care about feelings and emotions; I care about logic and facts. 

Apparently that makes me a horrible person.


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## ppsage (Jul 29, 2016)

Yikes! I'm just askin! 

Okay, Triggered feminist just gets me youtubes of ladies somebody's really pissed off. Zero vetting who they might be. I'm guessing probably not feminist spokespersons of any repute. Anyway I don't see them advocating victimhood as a strategy so much as noisily reporting somewhat actual victimization. 

I'll try looking for blogs instead. What I've read so far, admittedly just the wiki articles, which are long if nothing else, these waves don't seem especially well defined, or even particularly real, as general movement categorizations. There have been more or less reasonably pissed off ladies for as long as I cared to notice. But they're not especially unique in that, sometimes guys get indignant too.


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## Terry D (Jul 29, 2016)

Sam said:


> But it would appear I need to get over myself.



If this is in reference to my comment above, I was not commenting on any post, or discussion here. Just saying that labeling of any sort is a self-centered act. It presumes an understanding few people actually have. Thin skins are far more common.


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## Smith (Jul 29, 2016)

The victimization is pretty easy to find in my experience, ppsage. You can start with false rape reports, "rape culture", and "patriarchy".

---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp0pTPy8Txo
Milo Yiannopoulos is worth checking out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odmhnu6-NP8
^ Here is a video by a popular, swell, gentlemanly YouTuber, analyzing a popular feminist blog Q&A.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0aanx5rpr7D1M7KCFYzrLQ
^ Plenty of informative videos about feminism and the recent rise of bullshit SJW movements, coming from a girl who is closer to a feminist than most self-proclaiming feminists are.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCg6MuFVugHwWCp1YDQDAy1w/search?query=feminism
^ This guy has a few good videos regarding feminism as well.

---

I agree with Sam. It's almost impossible to have a legitimate discourse about this, because society at large has allowed "being offended" to become an argument, right along with "college safe-spaces" and "microtransgressions".


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## ppsage (Jul 30, 2016)

I'm still not seeing an acknowledged leader of any 'third wave' movement of any importance espousing an ideology of 'victimization.' I see a lot of mostly very antagonistic people interpreting the actions of a very few other people according to their own ideology, and then I'm seeing more people echoing and blowing that up into broad generalizations without serious investigation. However avant garde the video technology, this doesn't constitute fact. I'm highly skeptical that any of this has lasting importance enough to cause such a hullabaloo, compared to actuality of feminism over the recent decades. It feels more like tiny embittered and completely marginalized minorities from both sides trying to get the spotlight. I'll see what I can find at the library next week. This is giving me plot notions.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Jul 30, 2016)

Sometimes I wonder if this thread should be renamed the woman hater's thread. Why does everybody irregardless of whether they're white, black, male, female, aliens with a long nose, etc., have to complain they are the victim? This, especially since there really is some oppression going on in the world. Playing the victim marginalizes the sufferings of those that really are or have been oppressed (Native Americans, native South Africans during apartheid, the various genocides throughout history). Ask how sympathetic one of those real victims will be about people having a hissy fit because women have a better chance of winning a custody battle.


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## Smith (Jul 30, 2016)

That sort of comparison is exactly what creates this kind of problem. You don't ignore the problems of one group because another group has or had it worse. It doesn't nullify the fact that men get shafted in divorce and child custody, as if the inability to see your own child based on your gender and not your parenting ability is a non-issue.

The point is that the feminist movement uses _myths - things that aren't even true -_ like the wage-gap and the patriarchy to victimize themselves (which is ironic, since the movement is supposed to empower women). Which you'd be absolutely right calling that a disservice to the women who fought for the right to vote, or the women who face a real patriarchy in the middle east.

I don't know where the strange misconception of "anti-feminism = hatred of women" came from, but people need to stop using it. I don't hate women, and to my knowledge based on what I've read, I don't think anybody else here does either. I hate third-wave feminism. That includes the annoying White Knight _men_, too.

That being said, feminists aren't the only ones who employ the strategy of victimization. Just go on The Red Pill on reddit, and you'll want to kill yourself and take the whole world with you. It's just as bad, and it's all men.

Truth be told, the one thing I agree with, is that everybody needs to stop making themselves out to be a victim *when they aren't*.

@ppsage,

I can think of one good feminist leader, and that's Christina Hoff Sommers. Just recently I've heard Ronda Rousey speak about these subjects as they pertain to UFC, and I was surprised that her responses were so intelligent and honest. She didn't side-step any questions, but gave them the truth. I'd consider her a positive feminist influence, but not a self-proclaimed "leader".

I can think of a bad one off the top of my head, and that'd be Anita Sarkeesian. Actually, two; Hillary Clinton.

Regardless of whether certain individuals deemed as "leaders" of the movement espouse it, the fact remains that the majority of feminists do hold themselves to this ridiculous self-victimization and crying-wolf, and *somebody* is feeding it to them. That's what their go-to arguments are always ultimately about, whether they realize it or not.

---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MioIksr8i00
I don't really care for Trump, but I laughed.


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## Galivanting (Jul 30, 2016)

never mind nope


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## kaminoshiyo (Jul 31, 2016)

Smith said:


> That sort of comparison is exactly what creates this kind of problem...



I never understood these arguments. I mean, yeah, some women believe this and a fair number of women- given a few minutes of freedom to speak on their idea of the sexes- will say something stupid, but the same goes for men. And just like racism, people seem to think the inequalities and injustices of history evaporated after...whatever date you can think of. 

Plenty of injustice out there and plenty of reasons why women should defend themselves. There are probably a lot more eloquent women out there who express a strong and reasonable argument, but I think the problem is you focus on the feminist extremists and characterize all feminists by what these few say. I've seen some of these channels and they do exactly this. Not only that, but the fact that almost 90% of their channel is dedicated to attacking feminism seems to suggest an unhealthy bias towards this subject. 

My opinion. Be cool... Don't let the flies bother you so much.


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## Smith (Aug 1, 2016)

kaminoshiyo said:


> I never understood these arguments. I mean, yeah, some women believe this and a fair number of women- given a few minutes of freedom to speak on their idea of the sexes- will say something stupid, but the same goes for men. And just like racism, people seem to think the inequalities and injustices of history evaporated after...whatever date you can think of.
> 
> Plenty of injustice out there and plenty of reasons why women should defend themselves. There are probably a lot more eloquent women out there who express a strong and reasonable argument, but I think the problem is you focus on the feminist extremists and characterize all feminists by what these few say. I've seen some of these channels and they do exactly this. Not only that, but the fact that almost 90% of their channel is dedicated to attacking feminism seems to suggest an unhealthy bias towards this subject.
> 
> My opinion. Be cool... Don't let the flies bother you so much.



Somebody will always be judgmental towards somebody else, whether it be over gender, or race, etc. It depends a lot on ignorance, upbringing, and influences from the environment. My dad is a perfect example of this. He grew up in the deep south during the '60s, so you can see how that might have influenced his outlook on black people. Then he moved to Detroit when he was very young, where he was bullied for being white at a very predominantly black, inner-city school. Then him, my grandparents, and his two sisters moved out of Detroit during the riots, after their house in Detroit had been robbed three different times by black criminals. I'm not saying any of that justifies his opinion about black people. I'm saying that it explains why.

Fortunately I wasn't raised in such a warped perspective. Well, and I didn't allow myself to succumb to that sort of thinking. I've learned that the issue is one of socio-economics, which by the way, defeats the entire purpose of the BLM movement.

My long-winded point, is that it is absolutely unrealistic, and a complete waste of time, to believe you're going to create some utopia where not one of the 150 million men in the states will ever "catcall", or will ever judge a woman based on their looks, or hire a man over a woman because they won't have to worry about maternity leave. You can get rid of racism at large, but their will always be cases here or there, and that's the nature of the beast. That's the price we pay for free will as individually unique human beings.

But it is *your choice* to be offended by a guy who may not have even been catcalling you, but was just trying to pay you a compliment. It's *your choice* to dress provocatively, take offense when you catch guys looking at you, and maybe then proceed to judge guys on their own looks. It's *your choice* to think rape and regret are one in the same. Nobody else's choice but yours, *unless* you're being harassed, threatened, physically assaulted, or somebody is putting a gun to your head. In most cases, it's a matter of deciding to take offense to something, or to move on.

These SJW movements, whether it's Black Lives Matter or feminism, don't accomplish anything because they don't even focus on solving the real underlying issue (if there even is one), and instead actually have a very negative impact. First-wave feminism focused on the right to vote. And unlike third-wave feminism, they didn't focus on a non-issue. First-wave feminists didn't *already have* the right to vote, and make some bullshit case about how "the patriarchy was burning womens' ballots behind closed doors". No, women literally didn't have the right to vote, and so they banded together and got it.

Like I said. Christina Hoff Sommers is a wonderful, smart leader with good intentions. Also, one of those channels I mentioned is run by a girl who, as I said in my previous post, "is more of a feminist than most self-proclaimed feminists". Just like you don't have to be religious to be a good person, you don't have to be a self-proclaimed feminist in order to support healthy body image or how to stay safe when going to parties. I don't despise feminism because I hate women. I despise it because, ironically, it doesn't empower women. Because it's illogical, spreads misinformation, outright lies, leading to a divide between the genders, and at the end of it all _still _fails to achieve equality, because there is no inequality. And so, the entire thing is pointless from the very beginning.

I appreciate your opinion, and thank-you for sharing it civilly. You do have a point that the more radical and extreme feminists have a much louder voice than the more moderate ones. But I don't see anything wrong about the channels I linked. I've followed them for a while and have watched majority of their videos, and I'm yet to see an issue with any of it. They source their information. They present logical arguments backed by evidence.

That's the problem with labels in the first place. It puts everybody (sometimes millions of people) with their own ideas -- ideas that are sometimes aligned, and many times not -- under one roof that is _supposed_ to only stand for certain ideas. It creates this silly detective work where you try to find out if they're a "real" feminist, what "kind" of feminist they are, and what "sub-category" of feminism to put them under. That's why I don't label myself with political parties, or movements, or what have you. If people want to know what I believe in, they shouldn't ask "Are you a feminist?" They should ask, "What do you think about the wage-gap?"

Everybody would be much better off stopping with these complex movements and groups that are fragmented by default, and just focusing on individual issues. Because to say "real feminists aren't feminazis" is as arbitrary as "if you don't want to castrate every single man, you aren't a feminist". It's all perspective, and if you're going to associate yourself with it via label (whether you share their perspective or not), I want absolutely nothing to do with any of it.

If you'd like to talk more about the unnecessary confusion associated with labels and movements in general; or stereotypes and how our upbringing and environment can effect our perspectives, I'd be more than happy to via PM, or even via blog. I think it'd be an interesting and enlightening discussion, considering you are another open-minded person. As far as this discussion in particular, on this Father's Day appreciation thread, I will now have to resign myself from it. In the defense of reason, I've said everything I've needed to say to make myself clear and to support my thoughts, and haven't seen anything to change my mind that feminism and other social-justice movements are a force for good. The last words can be for somebody else.


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## dale (Aug 1, 2016)

Smith said:


> Somebody will always be judgmental towards somebody else, whether it be over gender, or race, etc. It depends a lot on ignorance, upbringing, and influences from the environment.



yeah. it's not just feminism. especially not here in america. we live in this pathetic new world of "microaggressions".
the word itself makes me sick to my stomach, and causes me to become....well...more aggressive. people who whine and 
cry with their little imaginary microaggressions that they've learned from their TV screens simply make me wanna behave
 more like a bastard. why? because i got my own shit to deal with. i don't have the time or empathy to take pity on a room
full of weeping imaginary friends who have nothing better to do but selfishly wanna drag me down by their own invented 
lack of self-worth. fuck them. fuck them all. lol


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## LeeC (Aug 1, 2016)

There you are, our ever cheerful dale  I've thought of you off and on remembering a remark elsewhere. I remembered it seeing a meme on social media, but haven't been able to find either again. It was a picture of an adult male standing in a doorway, with five or six revolvers tucked into their waistline, and a couple more in holsters. The wording on the meme was, "A daughter's father."

I don't remember the wording of your post, but I'm thinking you might recall the connection ;-)


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## kaminoshiyo (Aug 2, 2016)

Smith said:


> My long-winded point, is that it is absolutely unrealistic, and a complete waste of time...



I don't think it's a waste of time. The underlying issue cannot be addressed because that issue is human nature. We tend to antagonize the different. The more different, the more we antagonize it. These differences can be in height, sex, weight, hair color, religion, politics, family, nation, wealth, etc... 

You will never get rid of crime, but we still have police. The police presence serves as a deterrent. So with the BLM and feminists. They serve as overt reminders that while nothing is perfect, there exists and imbalance nonetheless. While not every catcall is malignant, none of them are necessary. Sure, you might not be able to help looking at a woman a certain way, but catcalling...? No. I would say catcalling is as offensive as being called a b*tch. And I certainly don't want my wife or daughter being called a b*tch by everyone on the street who feels they should be able to express themselves. 

You have to consider that you, also, are an SJW and so is the sites that you subscribe to. They have an idea of how society should be and they are hacking away at ideas that threaten that. They literally are waging a war on those ideas. You are fighting the excesses of the "other" without registering just how much the excesses of a male dominated society have borne down on those other people.


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## Smith (Aug 2, 2016)

You are right, that a big part of the underlying issue has to do with human nature. Glad we agree there.

I disagree that it's a male dominated society because of some invisible patriarchy. And like I said: whether you think catcalling is completely unnecessary or not, the fact remains that -- just like how somebody might take offense to a joke -- the responsibility of "taking offense" is on the "victim".

Unless, of course, the catcallers are stalking you, harassing you, or verbally / physically threatening you (at which point you should call the police, because the catcalling is the least of your concern).

Sure, I'm a social justice defender. I defend myself against the cancers of feminism and the racism of Black Lives Matter, and the asinine PC culture infecting the world I live in. I support women, and support blacks. But feminism does not support women, and Black Lives Matter does not support blacks. So, I defend myself from these illogical movements that legitimately threaten society as a whole.

---

I'm aware I said I wouldn't comment any more, but I now believe something positive can come out of a discussion that is more focused on exploring areas we (might?) agree on. After all, isn't the purpose of discussion to find some sort of common ground? Perhaps even make some compromises? And God forbid either of us learn a thing or two.

You brought up "human nature". Such a broad term. For me, I think some of it specifically comes down to perspective. We're all very unique individuals, as you mentioned with the skin color, height, weight, and so on... and we all have infinitely, exceedingly different life experiences, as I talked about previously with my dad and his early childhood.

Survival bias plays a role in this. Just like how somebody who is very successful would find it easy to say "hard work pays off" compared to somebody who worked *equally* as hard and failed, a woman could find it easy to say that women are oppressed if they happened to have been dominated by oppression in their life. What's even more unfortunate, is while the woman might _feel_ this way, reality could be a completely different story. Or, it might not.

However, in all cases, the individual in question fails to realize that their personal experience is not necessarily a universal truth, or even common. And so seeing the world with blinders on prevents us from seeing the issue from a more objective view. Instead, close-minded individuals are more prone to see it from an emotional standpoint, backed by a confirmation bias.

Having said that, I would like to admit that I think I should clarify something: I don't think that women *never* face oppression. Just look at the middle-east.

Additionally, I feel like movements such as feminism and BLM are detrimental. But that's not because I believe racism is non-existent, or that men are saints. I believe they are detrimental because, for example, feminism disenfranchises women, and Black Lives Matter does not address the real issue which is socio-economics.

You mention how the police are a deterrent for criminals. That's a fair statement. They're also authorized enforcers of the law though. Black Lives Matter and feminists are not enforcers of anything, and thank goodness they aren't. Have you seen videos of blacks trying to race bait white police officers? Deliberately not complying so they can falsely victimize themselves? Have you noticed how every encounter between a white cop and a black man suddenly has become racist by default in the media? How the media plays the dash-cam footage with zero context?

By the way, at any point can we focus on possible police brutality committed by black cops? Latino cops? Or does that not fit the story they're trying to spin here?

Having asked you that, could you imagine if we all just jumped on board with the BLM if they obtained that level of executive power? You'd have white cops being wrongly fired -- or worse -- and you'd have black criminals getting away with crimes.

Could you imagine if feminism had the ability to enforce their views as law? You'd have men being castrated, and businesses and government hiring / electing equally based on gender rather than on skill or capability. The justice system would be "guilty before proven innocent" and every rape accusation would automatically be assumed to be legitimate.

---

On another note, one perhaps we might find some agreement in; when you make a claim, it's absolutely fair to ask the claimant to support their claim with evidence. What I mean in a less convoluted way, is if somebody says they are oppressed by the patriarchy, they ought to be able to provide proof. If somebody says the cop used excessive force on them because they're a certain color, there should be proof, such as (but not limited to) *UNALTERED* dashcam footage. We also have our court system for a reason.

On the increasingly rare occasion that I am presented with proof, you'd still need to show me that it is a large-scale trend that requires addressing, and not a statistical outlier. Furthermore, you'd need to convince me that your solution, or method of solving the problem, is appropriate. And at some point in that process people have always failed me, even though I'm not really asking for much.


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## Sam (Aug 2, 2016)

kaminoshiyo said:


> I don't think it's a waste of time. The underlying issue cannot be addressed because that issue is human nature. We tend to antagonize the different. The more different, the more we antagonize it. These differences can be in height, sex, weight, hair color, religion, politics, family, nation, wealth, etc...
> 
> You will never get rid of crime, but we still have police. The police presence serves as a deterrent. So with the BLM and feminists. They serve as overt reminders that while nothing is perfect, there exists and imbalance nonetheless. While not every catcall is malignant, none of them are necessary. Sure, you might not be able to help looking at a woman a certain way, but catcalling...? No. I would say catcalling is as offensive as being called a b*tch. And I certainly don't want my wife or daughter being called a b*tch by everyone on the street who feels they should be able to express themselves.
> 
> You have to consider that you, also, are an SJW and so is the sites that you subscribe to. They have an idea of how society should be and they are hacking away at ideas that threaten that. They literally are waging a war on those ideas. You are fighting the excesses of the "other" without registering just how much the excesses of a male dominated society have borne down on those other people.



Here's the problem: catcalling works _on certain women_. Because if it didn't, men wouldn't catcall. There wouldn't be any point. It's the same as condemning pickup artists and calling them pathetic. The reality is, if there weren't women who responded to and accepted the advances of pickup artists, they wouldn't exist. Here's an interesting correlation: I often hear fans of celebrities say, "Why won't the paparazzi leave 'insert celebrity here' alone? Leave them alone!" This is the reality: if those same fans didn't buy magazines with stories and pictures of celebrities in them, the paparazzi would go out of business. 

So as far as catcalling is concerned: some women do not object to being catcalled. The problem is, you have to catcall them first to find out whether or not they object to it! So saying that it's wrong or immoral to catcall doesn't change anything. If the method works, people will use it and chance their luck. 

The trouble is, however, that the definition of 'catcalling' has been amended to include any instance of a man saying something to a woman in a public space. Now, saying "hi, how are you?" to a woman is considered catcalling in America. It's patently ridiculous. I don't excuse hard-core catcalling like "get your tits out", but when you walk through a public space, you are going to encounter all kinds of things that will not be filtered -- and you cannot proceed through life with the erroneous belief that people have to alter their behaviour to ensure you don't feel bad or offended. This is the nexus of feminism -- that people should not have to hear or see anything that is liable to offend them, and it is a utopian fairy tale. 

Learn to not be offended, and learn to ignore assholes, and stop projecting the actions of the few onto the majority.


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## dither (Aug 2, 2016)

I'm not familiar with the term " catcalling" but a bloke can't say hello to girl, how do couples ever get together? Christ it's hard enough as it is.


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## Ariel (Aug 2, 2016)

I think you've seriously misunderstood both feminism and black lives matter.


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## Sam (Aug 2, 2016)

Who?


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## Ariel (Aug 2, 2016)

Well, in this thread it would be several people.  It's ok to have problems as a white person or as a man. No one is denying those problems. But there are more issues facing minorities and women than there are facing white men. Addressing those problems and inequalities is not a bad thing.


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## kilroy214 (Aug 2, 2016)

When my lawnmower start shooting craps, I can hit it with a hammer and sometimes that fixes it. Just because something works doesn't mean it's the right way to do things. So yeah, maybe we need to teach women to ignore catcalls and ignore assholes, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't teach our sons to not catcall women and not be an asshole.


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## Ariel (Aug 2, 2016)

It's amazing to me that men consistently miss the point of why catcalling is so offensive.  It isn't saying hello or how are you.  It's specifically having attention called to a woman's body by a stranger.  It's rude, scary, and doesn't go away when ignored.  When ignored it's usually emphasized with threats of bodily harm or insults to one's intelligence.

And the worst part is that it's perpetrated by men that, in general, are good men.

Women don't like catcalling because it is harrassment. It can be accompanied by being grabbed by a stranger who keeps asking for your phone number. It's making up a boyfriend or husband because the other person respects your voice less than another man's.  It's being unsafe in your own body because that body is a commodity to a stranger.


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## Phil Istine (Aug 2, 2016)

amsawtell said:


> It's amazing to me that men consistently miss the point of why catcalling is so offensive.



I would have preferred the word "some" inserted before "men".  Stereotyping *all* of a particular group because of the behaviour of *some* that group seems pretty unfair to me.  I would like to think it's the kind of thing we are all trying to move away from.


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## Ariel (Aug 2, 2016)

Which, again, is beside the point.  Whether a generalization is used the fact remains--too many women are afraid of men. Is it because of some bad apples?  Yes.  But it takes other men recognizing that it is a problem standing with us to stop it.


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## Sam (Aug 2, 2016)

kilroy214 said:


> When my lawnmower start shooting craps, I can hit it with a hammer and sometimes that fixes it. Just because something works doesn't mean it's the right way to do things. So yeah, maybe we need to teach women to ignore catcalls and ignore assholes, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't teach our sons to not catcall women and not be an asshole.



We teach people not to murder, steal, and break the law. 

How's that working out? 

The problem is that good people already know it's wrong to catcall. You know who doesn't know it's wrong? Assholes. And they don't care. Teaching them to not catcall will have as much effect as teaching a cat to stop meowing. 

People need to understand that you cannot eradicate all the deviants and assholes in the world. It's impossible. So a better use of one's time is teaching people how to deal with them.


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## Sam (Aug 2, 2016)

amsawtell said:


> But it takes other men recognizing that it is a problem standing with us to stop it.



To stop what -- women being afraid of men? How, might I ask, are we going to stop that?

How is anybody going to stop you from feeling afraid of something? The only person who can do that is _you_, by realising that not every man wants to physically or sexually assault you. 

I, as a man, am statistically more likely to die on the street than you. Last year, the homicide rate was 65% male, yet I don't fear walking down the street.



amsawtell said:


> Well, in this thread it would be several people. It's ok to have problems as a white person or as a man. No one is denying those problems. But there are more issues facing minorities and women than there are facing white men. Addressing those problems and inequalities is not a bad thing.



Let me ask you a question, Ariel: 

Are women between the ages of 18 and 45 killing themselves at a ratio of 4:1 when compared with men? 

Are women dying at work at a 92% to 8% rate over men?

Are women dying on the frontlines at a 95% to 5% rate over men? 

Don't stand there and tell me that men have no problems in this world. I am not saying that women don't have any, but come back to me when they are dying in their droves and then we can talk about who has problems where.


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## Ariel (Aug 2, 2016)

To stop giving women valid reasons for fearing men.


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## kilroy214 (Aug 2, 2016)

Sam said:


> We teach people not to murder, steal, and break the law.
> 
> How's that working out?



Seeing as though crime rates are at an all time low, I'd say it's working out fairly well.

http://www.npr.org/2015/12/23/46085...orts-crime-rates-are-actually-down-in-the-u-s

http://www.nationalreview.com/corne...gun-crime-are-both-dropping-charles-c-w-cooke

http://www.wanttoknow.info/g/violent_crime_rates_reduction


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## PiP (Aug 2, 2016)

Sam said:


> The trouble is, however, that the definition of 'catcalling' has been amended to include any instance of a man saying something to a woman in a public space. Now, saying "hi, how are you?" to a woman is considered catcalling in America. It's patently ridiculous. I don't excuse hard-core catcalling like "get your tits out", but when you walk through a public space, you are going to encounter all kinds of things that will not be filtered -- and you cannot proceed through life with the erroneous belief that people have to alter their behaviour to ensure you don't feel bad or offended. This is the nexus of feminism -- that people should not have to hear or see anything that is liable to offend them, and it is a utopian fairy tale.
> 
> Learn to not be offended, and learn to ignore assholes, and stop projecting the actions of the few onto the majority.



Sam, I find this totally ridiculous. We are moving towards a society where some people are offended by everything. So a man can't talk to a women in a public space but a woman can say hi to a man. Have I understood this lunacy correctly? If so, I'd say to this movement of offended feminists: get over themselves.


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## PiP (Aug 2, 2016)

amsawtell said:


> To stop giving women valid reasons for fearing men.



Ams, you are jesting, yes?


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## Terry D (Aug 2, 2016)

The issue needs to be attacked from both ends. Yes, there will always be assholes, but there will also always be people who are intimidated by them, so saying those people need to "learn how to deal with it" is just as ineffective as saying we need to teach the assholes not to be assholes. Parents need to teach their children how to not be victims, friends need to support their friends in not being victimized, and individuals need to recognize the victim within themselves and not give in to him/her. But, parents also need to teach their children respect for other people, friends need to stop being silent when the asshole speaks, and people need to recognize the asshole within and not give in.

It all come down to personal responsibility -- not how someone else should behave.


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## Smith (Aug 2, 2016)

The point Sam is making, is you can't shirk the responsibility to take measures to defend yourself, by saying perpetrators should know better.

Most of the time, a thief knows he's doing wrong. So when he does it anyway, it's saying "but the possible benefits outway me possibly getting caught". Then there are some *psychopaths* who don't care, and who could be murderers (or they could live normal lives, depends).

If you leave your new Mustang unlocked with the keys in the ignition in drug runner alley for a month while you go away on vacation, and you come back to find it gone, that's your fault.

On a similar token, if you go to a party to get "fuckin' shwaysted" by yourself with a bunch of strangers, that's your responsibility for what happens.

You don't have control over what other people do. Certain things have *consequences* enforced by law, yes, but unless you're going to introduce thought-crime, consequences will only deal with the actions of an individual after the fact. Not stop them in advance.


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## Ariel (Aug 2, 2016)

PiP said:


> Ams, you are jesting, yes?


No, I'm not. I know several women who have been abused and/or raped.  Tell me PiP, what do you do to protect yourself when you go out alone at night?  Say you want to walk down to the corner store for milk at dusk--what do you do to protect yourself?  Why do you do it?  And who are you protecting yourself from?

I'm not saying that we should shirk responsibility.  I'm saying that women shouldn't be expected to be the bearers of all of that responsibility.


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## PiP (Aug 2, 2016)

amsawtell said:


> No, I'm not. I know several women who have been abused and/or raped.  Tell me PiP, what do you do to protect yourself when you go out alone at night?  Say you want to walk down to the corner store for milk at dusk--what do you do to protect yourself?  Why do you do it?  And who are you protecting yourself from?
> 
> I'm not saying that we should shirk responsibility.  I'm saying that women shouldn't be expected to be the bearers of all of that responsibility.



Sorry, ams, I thought you were. 

Women are not alone; men are also attacked. What about men's rights? I don't go out alone at night because I fear men I don't go out alone because I don't want to be mugged. Regardless of gender, men are also at risk. My husband was nearly mugged in broad daylight. I saw the muggers and twacked them with my handbag. I think it would be more worthwhile if both genders were taught self-defence and were treated equally.

Young girls should also be educated in that they don't go out half-naked with hemlines up to their armpits and necklines that meet their thong's knicker elastic - then get blind drunk. If they don't respect themselves ...

Where I live in Portugal I would not hesitate to walk to the bar at night by myself, sit down and chat to a group of people and then leave alone. I am more scared of being attacked by roaming dogs.


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## Ariel (Aug 2, 2016)

I'm not saying men shouldn't. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be treated equally.  And you're privileged that you feel safe enough to go out alone at night.  And victims should _never_ be blamed for the crime committed against them.  Doesn't matter what a woman or man wears.


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## aurora borealis (Aug 2, 2016)

Put it this way: how many news articles are there where a lesbian or bisexual woman has attacked and raped a woman who was wearing skimpy clothing?

The clothing isn't the problem.


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## PiP (Aug 2, 2016)

amsawtell said:


> And victims should _never_ be blamed for the crime committed against them.  Doesn't matter what a woman or man wears.



No, victims should never be blamed, but you don't go around waving a wallet full of money or stick it in your back pocket if you don't want to be mugged. Nor do you leave your handbag open if you don't want to be dipped. It's taking simple precautions. I was mugged in France while sitting at a street cafe. They never got my handbag because it was tightly wedged on my lap but they stole my daughter's blackberry. She got a right telling off from me because she left it on the table in full view. So sometimes victims do need to take responsibility. There are perverts and nutters out there and no law against catcalling or whatever is going to prevent them taking advantage of scantily dressed girls. 

Apologies to OP we have wandered off-topic.


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## Ariel (Aug 2, 2016)

Your analogy is a poor one. Rape does not equal a mugging or theft.

i can't speak from personal experience on rape, thank god, but I can speak about sexual harrassment. When I was 17 I was in a gas station with my mother and aunt. Some guy ran his hand down the entire left side of my body. It happened quickly.  I was turning and yelling at him in the middle of it and he still managed to tweak my breast and bottom. 

Because I know I'll be asked I'll tell you.  I was wearing a pair of jeans and a baggy tee shirt. I was wearing tennis shoes. My hair was in a ponytail.  What part of that was being irresponsible?


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## aurora borealis (Aug 2, 2016)

When I was at a high school dance in grade nine a boy came up to me and slapped my ass. I turned around and he had disappeared into the crowd of people.

I was minding my own business. I was standing by the wall with a group of my friends chatting. I was wearing jeans and a sweater. Aside from my hands, I was completely covered from the neck down.

Was I also irresponsible?


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## kilroy214 (Aug 2, 2016)

Smith said:


> The point Sam is making, is you can't shirk the responsibility to take measures to defend yourself, by saying perpetrators should know better.
> 
> Most of the time, a thief knows he's doing wrong. So when he does it anyway, it's saying "but the possible benefits outway me possibly getting caught". Then there are some *psychopaths* who don't care, and who could be murderers (or they could live normal lives, depends).
> 
> ...



1. Sam's right, but when said people try to defend themselves, they should get support, not called names like 'bitchy-third wave femanazis'

2. A thief knows he's in the wrong because thievery is an actual crime. Catcalling, while not against the law, puts most women on edge, and just because it works 1 out 100 attempts doesn't mean it should be a culturally accepted method of breaking the ice. Why is it okay to tell a woman to just ignore it and look at the ground and move as quickly away as possible and not okay to tell the person doing it 'stop being a fucking creep'?

3. Did you seriously just equate stealing a car with rape?

4. A woman should be able to go to a party wearing whatever the hell she wants and drink ss much as she wants without fear of being touched, let alone raped, because as a society, raping people is a pretty fucked up thing to do, and this whole 'She was asking for it' mentality gives people the wrong impression about where blame lies. It tells a person that if they see someone drinking excessively at a party wearing skimpy clothing that it will be okay to take advantage of them, because as far as society is concerned, you're not the one in the wrong.
Let me ask you; if you went to a party and got drunk, and blacked out and woke up to find a man raping you, would your first thought be "well, I guess I had it coming."?


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## dale (Aug 2, 2016)

amsawtell said:


> Women don't like catcalling because it is harrassment.



that is personal opinion of your own which you are generalizing for all women. would you like to know the number
of women i've slept with just by my 1st comment to them being completely sexist? well....i don't have the exact number,
but i can tell you it's over 50. if i catcall a woman? she should take that as a compliment. because i'm quite picky
about my catcalling.


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## aurora borealis (Aug 2, 2016)

dale said:


> that is personal opinion of your own which you are generalizing for all women. would you like to know the number
> of women i've slept with just by my 1st comment to them being completely sexist? well....i don't have the exact number,
> but i can tell you it's over 50. if i catcall a woman? she should take that as a compliment. because i'm quite picky
> about my catcalling.



We don't like catcalling because we don't want random men telling us how much they like our bodies. If I am minding my own business, walking down the street, texting my friends or simply walking, I don't want somebody to tell me that I have nice tits and that my mouth would look better if I was giving them a blowjob. I just want to be left alone.


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## Ariel (Aug 2, 2016)

dale said:


> that is personal opinion of your own which you are generalizing for all women. would you like to know the number
> of women i've slept with just by my 1st comment to them being completely sexist? well....i don't have the exact number,
> but i can tell you it's over 50. if i catcall a woman? she should take that as a compliment. because i'm quite picky
> about my catcalling.


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## Cran (Aug 2, 2016)

There is a reason why the Debates forum was shut down: no one is immune to getting sucked into endless and pointless argument, hair-splitting, point scoring, or demonstrating to the world just how prejudiced or insensitive they can be if they really put their mind to it. 

This discussion has run its course. Anyone who wishes to continue it, to get in the last word, to throw one more jab, to justify injustice, can take it outside. 


CLOSED.


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