# Mister Nice Guy



## Stormcat (Dec 11, 2015)

Friends, Feminists, countrywomen, Lend me your stories.

I have a character who lusts after my Female protagonist. She wants nothing to do with him. He resorts to threats, vandalism, and even mind control to get at her. But he's a "nice guy".

I realize now the facade of niceness isn't present at all in my current draft and this "nice guy" just starts off in caveman fashion "ME WANT WOMAN". Obviously, that's not how real slimebags work. I've got the violent part down pat, but I want my "nice guy" to be somewhat sympathetic, right now he's just a brute. Can someone help me round this guy out?


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## Red Sonja (Dec 11, 2015)

They can help you, but I doubt if they will. 

How weird! I came back and edited this and then my text disappeared. 

Anyway, sorry about the facile answer I gave before. 

A guy with money, especially if he has large spending habits, always has an easier time creating the impression he's "nice" even if he's not. 

A poor person has a much harder time demonstrating niceness, even if he is actually nice. 

The type of relentless pursuit you're describing is of course doable for a poor person, BUT fewer people are likely to think a poor, raggedly stalker is nice as opposed to an effusive, friendly-seeming chap who hands out candies to the neighborhood kids. A person who has paid for others' kind regard is much harder to get rid of, and to get law enforcement to do anything about.


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## TheWonderingNovice (Dec 11, 2015)

Well, that's a tough one but not impossible.

You would have to make his 'Me want woman' a facade. Give him a reason for pursuing her so viciously, because right know he is looking like a real a**.

It'll be a balancing act.
Maybe he acts that way because he is insecure and cannot see any other way to get her attention. I don't know about mind control part - that is controlling borderline abusive.

If you find that you have doubts, have a woman or several women read it and give you their opinion


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## Red Sonja (Dec 11, 2015)

PS, such an attachment may begin with simple lust, but that usually gets lost in all the control issues. Like with rape: It's more about dominance and force than getting off. As noted above, the guy's control and power issues are what make him pursue the female against greater and greater odds, all the while trying to convince himself and others that he's "a nice guy." (Haha, I've known so many freaks who have this problem. I could write several books on it if I wanted to: One book for each freak.)

A regular guy just looking for a squeeze will not waste time pursuing someone who gives him a determined, emphatic "no," but hunt for more compliant, easier game. A guy who can't take "no" for an answer will be that way with other things, maybe not everything, but with a lot of things: He super-competitive and can't lose a game, maybe a spouse or gf left him because of controlling possessive behavior, he abuses animals under his care, he frets and agonizes over power struggles at the office (et cetera).


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## TheWonderingNovice (Dec 11, 2015)

I should've asked this first - what kind of story is this?

Those characteristics are eerily similar to those of a murder. It just seems like any little upset could flip his switch. But that's just how I took it.


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## Red Sonja (Dec 11, 2015)

Maybe she made out with him at a drunken party, then changed her mind. OR maybe he was with someone to begin with, gave up on his quest because he didn't want to cheat, then he loses that relationship and decides to go after her again. Now she doesn't want him, or wants him even less than she did before. Since he lost another gal (whether she had anything to do with it or not) now he's power tripping and can't let go. 



TheWonderingNovice said:


> I should've asked this first - what kind of story is this?
> 
> Those characteristics are eerily similar to those of a murder. It just seems like any little upset could flip his switch. But that's just how I took it.



Nah, guys like that are extremely common. They pay or scare people into looking the other way or into cleaning up after the switched has been flipped. There are women like that too, of course, but women are less likely to have the resources available to stalk somebody long-term. 

You're having a hard time with this because you're not a sociopath (like I am; that's why it's so easy for me to answer this type of question, you see). You think "ME WANT WOMAN" (or whatever) and you go in search of that thing and you try to take as little time, trouble, and expense over it as possible. That's normal. The sociopath's desires are way more filtered, subtle, complex, and strained than that, especially with regard to sex. 

So maybe the one time he has a sincere, puppy-dog crush on a female, something bad happens and now when he sees women who turn him on, he wants to punish them, first with his weiner and then with whatever else is handy as time passes. Maybe he's used to getting his way for whatever reason and can't take rejection; maybe the woman is a hooker and he's paying her and she UNEXPECTEDLY turns him down or laughs at him and the chase is on, right?


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## TheWonderingNovice (Dec 11, 2015)

See, now, that back story makes him seem less like a obsessed guy and more relatable. Developed his motives a bit more  I'm sure you'll find the right balance


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## Stormcat (Dec 11, 2015)

TheWonderingNovice said:


> Well, that's a tough one but not impossible.
> 
> You would have to make his 'Me want woman' a facade. Give him a reason for pursuing her so viciously, because right know he is looking like a real a**.
> 
> ...



Oh, he's supposed to be abusive. I'm trying to show that the "nice guy" bit is all an act and he feels entitled to my female protagonist, as if she were a prize to be won.


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## TheWonderingNovice (Dec 11, 2015)

Ahh okay, yeah then you definitely nailed that


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## Stormcat (Dec 11, 2015)

Red Sonja said:


> Nah, guys like that are extremely common. They pay or scare people into looking the other way or into cleaning up after the switched has been flipped. There are women like that too, of course, but women are less likely to have the resources available to stalk somebody long-term.
> 
> You're having a hard time with this because you're not a sociopath (like I am; that's why it's so easy for me to answer this type of question, you see). You think "ME WANT WOMAN" (or whatever) and you go in search of that thing and you try to take as little time, trouble, and expense over it as possible. That's normal. The sociopath's desires are way more filtered, subtle, complex, and strained than that, especially with regard to sex.



This is some awesome advice.

I am trying to write a sociopathic character here, He's used to getting his way, and he expects things to work a certain way especially in regards to gender roles. He caught Female protagonist behaving in an "unwomanly" way and in his mind, he needs to help her find her place. From the moment he laid eyes on her, he was intrigued by her, but through her "unwomanly" behavior he sees a teaching opportunity.


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## Red Sonja (Dec 11, 2015)

Sociopaths a lot of the time seem like the most nice, normal (and often successful) people in the room. That's because they work on establishing niceness, normalness. They're highly adaptable. They often have above average intelligence. 

I mean, you can't really hurt people and mess up their lives until they trust you, right? The sociopath grasps that fact. He works to establish trust, more so than an actually more mentally-stable person. A mentally-stable person doesn't care that much how others see him - I mean he does but only to a normal degree. Normal Guy cares more about how his loved ones see him, whether they can depend on him, etc. 

You know how people razz and criticize women who like "bad boys"...? Consider this: Bad Boy is at least Honest Boy. If he lets you see him do something bad, then sure he may do something worse later on, but ultimately there will be fewer surprises down the road. (And Bad Boy is much less likely to care if you stop showing up at his house, as long as you're not telling the cops on him. Bad Boy is SO much less likely to stalk you. Bad Boy is going to stay over there on his side of the world after you're done with him. "Mr Nice Guy" is the one who just keeps coming back.)


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## Riis Marshall (Dec 12, 2015)

Hello Stormy

Chocolates and flowers, mate, chocolates and flowers. Works every time.

I'm glad we've had this little chat.

All the best with your writing.

Warmest regards
Riis


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## Red Sonja (Dec 12, 2015)

Stormcat said:


> Friends, Feminists, countrywomen, Lend me your stories.
> 
> I have a character who lusts after my Female protagonist. She wants nothing to do with him. He resorts to threats, vandalism, and even mind control to get at her. But he's a "nice guy".
> 
> I realize now the facade of niceness isn't present at all in my current draft and this "nice guy" just starts off in caveman fashion "ME WANT WOMAN". Obviously, that's not how real slimebags work. I've got the violent part down pat, but I want my "nice guy" to be somewhat sympathetic, right now he's just a brute. Can someone help me round this guy out?



The novel "50 Shades of Gray" (or whatever; I've never read it but I think that's the title) is a bestseller based on a sociopath's supposedly insatiable lust for this one rather boring and dim-witted gal. He loves her, he wants her. He gets a boner whenever he thinks about her THAT NEVER GOES AWAY. 

That's pretty much the scenario in every romance novel you've ever (not) read. Guy has to have this one female. He can't eat, sleep, read, or manage his estate. Even jerking off doesn't help because HE MUST HAVE HER. 

The reason  we don't take romance novels all that seriously as far as literature is concerned is that most of us are experienced enough to know that lust doesn't work that way. It's transient at best. Like water flowing downhill, if lust can't find one object to spend itself on, it'll find another. 

You said yourself in the other post: The guy is a sick fuck, he just wants to control the lady. She offended him; he's trying to punish her. He may have lusted after her at one point and of course, if he ever finally captures her he's going to have plenty of lust that will mostly take the form of sexual violation, but that's not all it is. His sickness started before he ever saw her. See what I'm saying? 

In a romance novel, the sexual tension usually resolves itself in a semi-rape, where the hesitant female is finally overwhelmed by the forceful manliness of her swain. (Haha, I can't believe I just typed that.) 

Ask yourself how a scenario plays out like that in real life. You convince yourself you WANT someone. YOU MUST HAVE that person. You get next to that person. You grab him/her and tear his/her clothing. 

In real life, that's when bad things start to happen. Real life is much more complicated. The signals for the mating ritual are much more complicated. (Which kind of sucks if you are lonely and socially awkward, but for a sociopath all that complexity is like a nice warm bath and a good book.)

Romance novels and erotica like "50 Shades of Gray" sell well because they are fantasy material for an entity without which the world would simply cease to turn: The lonely, bored, sexually frustrated middle-class or working-class housewife or single female. I mean, God speed the writer who can stomach writing characters for this audience, ya know? That person has a stronger stomach than I. It's a dirty job, as the saying goes, but somebody's gotta do it. 

Give your villain (he's the bad guy, right? You're not like writing a manual on how to stalk uppity women, or so I assume) more dimension by showing the pathetic, insecure side, the lonely side, of a person obsessed with power and dominance issues. (Is my friendly suggestion!)


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## PhunkyMunky (Dec 12, 2015)

You know... Ted Bundy was a charmer. Apparently not horrible looking and quick with a smile, but as soon as he got you alone... He probably had his face he put on and kept the smiles and charm on all the while thinking in his mind how he's going to take her over to a spot to strangle her. Your character could easily operate the same way. Smile and charm, maybe generous and the whole time he's got thoughts of maybe possessing her, controlling her, making her pay for whatever wrongs he's perceived some woman doing to him. 

Maybe the longer they're together... Because he has to make a way for this to happen, so the longer they're together the more slips out. He's been this "Nice Guy" for a month, maybe, and then one day he grabs her wrist and says "I said don't slam the car door!" He takes a breath, "I'm sorry." Later on maybe she's moved in. Late home from work and he slaps her because he doesn't believe she was at work... You see, she lives with him, now. She can't get away so easily. Now his behavior changes and his sadistic, abusive side comes out. 

As for what would cause a girl to fall for such a guy... You'll have to ask a woman.


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## Stormcat (Dec 12, 2015)

PhunkyMunky said:


> You know... Ted Bundy was a charmer. Apparently not horrible looking and quick with a smile, but as soon as he got you alone... He probably had his face he put on and kept the smiles and charm on all the while thinking in his mind how he's going to take her over to a spot to strangle her. Your character could easily operate the same way. Smile and charm, maybe generous and the whole time he's got thoughts of maybe possessing her, controlling her, making her pay for whatever wrongs he's perceived some woman doing to him.
> 
> Maybe the longer they're together... Because he has to make a way for this to happen, so the longer they're together the more slips out. He's been this "Nice Guy" for a month, maybe, and then one day he grabs her wrist and says "I said don't slam the car door!" He takes a breath, "I'm sorry." Later on maybe she's moved in. Late home from work and he slaps her because he doesn't believe she was at work... You see, she lives with him, now. She can't get away so easily. Now his behavior changes and his sadistic, abusive side comes out.
> 
> As for what would cause a girl to fall for such a guy... You'll have to ask a woman.



My Female Protagonist never falls for him. She's completely repulsed by his being. They never have any romantic interactions (although he does send her some creepy gifts), and they never move in together. At best, they are introduced and she senses something "off" about him and tries to escape, but he won't let her.


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## PhunkyMunky (Dec 13, 2015)

So he's more like an obsessed rapist.... Possibly a serial rapist.


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## Red Sonja (Dec 13, 2015)

Did you ever read John Fowles's "The Collector"...? The guy kidnaps and imprisons a chick. She tries all kinds of things to get away but never does. It's creepy and sad. 

Anyway, the type of guy you're describing is (again, sorry to repeat) fairly common. Maybe he doesn't carry through on his fantasies of controlling the target of his obsession but he wants to. He keeps up the facade of being "nice" so that other people won't see how crazy he is, so no one will interfere with his pursuit. 

Ugh, this reminds me of the time a psycho coworker went out and bought a dog, apparently to impress me. He was like the LAST person in the world who should be a dog owner. I remember when he got the dog; he fairly chased me out of the office that evening so he could tell me about it with a couple of his well-wishers standing on. 

It made me sick because I knew what would likely happen to the poor dog and guess what? Within a few months the guy did kill his own dog that he'd obtained in a bid to make me like him (PS, I'm a girl, sorry if I don't make that clear enough in my posts). I am totally not making this up. I'm not going to say what this guy did or his name or anything. That's like Stephen King type stuff right there. 

Another gal I played in a band with a long, long time ago was stalked for years by a creepy loser (who she never liked or encouraged in the least). Her boyfriend got fed up one evening and went out into the alleyway where this guy was lurking and worked him over with an aluminum baseball bat. 

Yeesh. So many psychos out there. Anyway, just some more input.


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## Stormcat (Dec 14, 2015)

Red Sonja said:


> Another gal I played in a band with a long, long time ago was stalked for years by a creepy loser (who she never liked or encouraged in the least). Her boyfriend got fed up one evening and went out into the alleyway where this guy was lurking and worked him over with an aluminum baseball bat.
> 
> Yeesh. So many psychos out there. Anyway, just some more input.



Did the message get across or did he need more convincing? I put my Story!psycho in an abandoned boat in the middle of the ocean, but he still finds his was back to civilization and continues to harass my female protagonist.


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## Red Sonja (Dec 14, 2015)

Haha, that sounds like this guy. Yes, when this lady's boyfriend assaulted the stalker (I guess he hurt him pretty badly) the police were called and the boyfriend was arrested. A lot of the time that's what happens with a stalker. "See, I'm nice! All I was doing was standing in the alleyway behind this apartment building screaming about how I love this girl and she's cheating on me because she lives with her boyfriend and he came out here and ATTACKED me!" 

The boyfriend had to go to court, hire a lawyer, pay fines. It was a well-known, and even publicized, local story because this gal and her bf were both musicians and she was really cute, a lot of guys had crushes on her. Even though the stalker had been after her for years and she always had to look out for him, he never got in trouble. He moved around a lot, right? The lady would try to complain about him and he would just move. He put ads in the local papers about her claiming he'd had sex with her and so on.

-----

Usually if a stalker like that gets injured in the course of his project it will confer a sense of sainted victimhood on him. "All I was doing was watching her to make sure she's SAFE and a crazy asshole ran out here and attacked me!" 

Again, that's the sociopath: It's not sex he's interested in; it's dominance. He'll gladly take a punch or two if it makes him appear persecuted by his victim.


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