# Foreigners in japan.



## Rojack79 (Feb 1, 2016)

Hey everyone. I have a simple question? How would i explain having European knight's in a Japanese fantasy world? I did some research and have found some mentions of European travelers making there way to china and getting blown off course landing in japan. Would this explanation work for a fantasy world?


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## Stormcat (Feb 1, 2016)

Missionaries did travel to Japan to try and convert the locals to Christianity. I don't think any knights would go traveling like that unless their king ordered them to.


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## Winston (Feb 1, 2016)

Depends on what year, but a European mercenary would be possible.  Except Japan already had plenty of them (Ronin).  
There were very few mounted soldiers in Feudal Japan.  A European would have to be of high status, and given an honorary title.
Because, of course, your Knight did not travel from Europe with his steed.  He would have to be insanely rich.


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## Stormcat (Feb 1, 2016)

Winston said:


> Depends on what year, but a European mercenary would be possible.  Except Japan already had plenty of them (Ronin).
> There were very few mounted soldiers in Feudal Japan.  A European would have to be of high status, and given an honorary title.
> Because, of course, your Knight did not travel from Europe with his steed.  He would have to be insanely rich.



Also worth noting that when Japan was undergoing it's Isolation years, Nagasaki was the only port open to foreign trade. Of course, this was LONG after the age of the fuedal knights.

It sounds like you're going a bit too "Mighty whitey" here. The Japanese had their own highly trained military knights, the samurai. Why cant you just use them and drop any mention of europe at all?


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## Rojack79 (Feb 1, 2016)

Stormcat said:


> Also worth noting that when Japan was undergoing it's Isolation years, Nagasaki was the only port open to foreign trade. Of course, this was LONG after the age of the fuedal knights.
> 
> It sounds like you're going a bit too "Mighty whitey" here. The Japanese had their own highly trained military knights, the samurai. Why cant you just use them and drop any mention of europe at all?


The story i have in mind is about an american foreign exchange student who gets transported to an alternate japan in the past that has magic and monster's. I'm trying to think of a plausible reason for him (The MC) to find and make use of a European long sword as apposed to a Japanese katana mostly as a way of compering and contrasting the two culture's.


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## Stormcat (Feb 1, 2016)

Rojack79 said:


> The story i have in mind is about an american foreign exchange student who gets transported to an alternate japan in the past that has magic and monster's. I'm trying to think of a plausible reason for him (The MC) to find and make use of a European long sword as apposed to a Japanese katana mostly as a way of compering and contrasting the two culture's.



Isn't that basically the plot of Inuyasha, but with a white guy in place of Kagome?

Besides that, I can think of several things wrong with this idea:

1. What American teenager has the metallurgy skills to make his own sword? The craftsmanship that goes into making a sword takes a lifetime to master!
2. Even if the kid learns metallurgy, he will most likely mimic the style of whoever taught him, most likely the japanese style.
3. If he just so happens to find this sword through some other means, it will again take a lifetime to master the use of the longsword. If he decides to train with the Ronin, that's another lifetime to learn their style.
4. Even if he manages to find the sword and even if he manages to master it, he will never be accepted by the population at that time, because he is a foreigner. The Japanese went into their isolation period because they thought no culture on earth could ever surpass their own, they looked down on everyone else until Commodore Perry showed them they had been essentially frozen in time. Even then, it took the Japanese a while to adapt new technologies and cultures into their own. There's simply no way a modern american teenager could ever fit in with the ancient Japanese. Magic or not!

I say ditch this japanese thing and make your own culture. This way, people can't call you out for historical errors. They also can't call you racist for having a white guy be the hero in a non-white culture.


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## Rojack79 (Feb 1, 2016)

Stormcat said:


> Isn't that basically the plot of Inuyasha, but with a white guy in place of Kagome?



No. This story takes place in an alternate reality that has a mix of age's from Japanese history. 



Stormcat said:


> 1. What American teenager has the metallurgy skills to make his own sword? The craftsmanship that goes into making a sword takes a lifetime to master!



I never said he was going to make his own sword.



Stormcat said:


> 2. Even if the kid learns metallurgy, he will most likely mimic the style of whoever taught him, most likely the japanese style.



Not quite. Using a long sword is a lot different from a Katana.



Stormcat said:


> 3. If he just so happens to find this sword through some other means, it will again take a lifetime to master the use of the longsword. If he decides to train with the Ronin, that's another lifetime to learn their style.



Not a life time. At the most 1 year of training is needed to become proficient in a single weapon.



Stormcat said:


> 4. Even if he manages to find the sword and even if he manages to master it, he will never be accepted by the population at that time, because he is a foreigner. The Japanese went into their isolation period because they thought no culture on earth could ever surpass their own, they looked down on everyone else until Commodore Perry showed them they had been essentially frozen in time. Even then, it took the Japanese a while to adapt new technologies and cultures into their own. There's simply no way a modern american teenager could ever fit in with the ancient Japanese. Magic or not!


 That's why its called a fantasy story. It doesn't have to fallow the law's of the real world. Beside's if he defeat's someone in a sword fight im sure there attitude will change quite quickly to one of respect. 



Stormcat said:


> I say ditch this japanese thing and make your own culture. This way, people can't call you out for historical errors. They also can't call you racist for having a white guy be the hero in a non-white culture.


One thing that i must say is that my MC will not be a "white guy". Honestly im sick and tired of that being the go to race for any "hero" in a story.


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## Bishop (Feb 1, 2016)

If it's alternate history, why do you need to explain it at all? Just say some Europeans were there. Done. It's alternate history, so long as you operate under that guise, you're fine.

As for weapon training, 1 year is not nearly enough to be able to defeat people who lived in that age, who trained from age 4 and know nothing but that way of fighting. "Proficient" yes, skilled enough to be able to fight effectively? No. Incidentally, this was also my biggest complaint with the new Star Wars movie...

Also, even if he's not "white", you're still going to have a stigma of west-comes-to-east. Look at how hated "The Last Samurai" was for the fact that Tom Cruise was the lead samurai. It's just how our culture's set up. It's not a reason to avoid writing it, but it's something to think about.


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## Rojack79 (Feb 1, 2016)

Bishop said:


> If it's alternate history, why do you need to explain it at all? Just say some Europeans were there. Done. It's alternate history, so long as you operate under that guise, you're fine.


Yes. Although i'm going for more of a portal fantasy story rather than alternate history on the account that this world is populated by a bunch of Japanese creature's from there folklore/Mythology, but the concept is some what the same. 



Bishop said:


> As for weapon training, 1 year is not nearly enough to be able to defeat people who lived in that age, who trained from age 4 and know nothing but that way of fighting. "Proficient" yes, skilled enough to be able to fight effectively? No. Incidentally, this was also my biggest complaint with the new Star Wars movie...


This i agree with but i'm counting on the fact that the MC is just some one trying to survive in this world and get back home. Depending on how long that take's him he could easily start training in how to use a sword and become quite skilled in its use by the end of this "story" seeing as how that is his only means of self defense. People become quite skilled at surviving when their life is on the line, even to the point of a complete "amateur" beating a "master" in mortal combat. It does not happen all that often but it can happen.



Bishop said:


> Also, even if he's not "white", you're still going to have a stigma of west-comes-to-east. Look at how hated "The Last Samurai" was for the fact that Tom Cruise was the lead samurai. It's just how our culture's set up. It's not a reason to avoid writing it, but it's something to think about.


I actually liked that movie. But i can see why people would not like to whole america comes to save the day thing. That has been done to death.


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## Stormcat (Feb 1, 2016)

Rojack79 said:


> No. This story takes place in an alternate reality that has a mix of age's from Japanese history.



You can't have a "Mix of ages" because time is linear. A mix of styles, sure, but never a mix of ages. Unless you're writing a story where the timeline is unstable.




> That's why its called a fantasy story. It doesn't have to fallow the law's of the real world. Beside's if he defeat's someone in a sword fight im sure there attitude will change quite quickly to one of respect.



Oh my sweet summer child, like with the mastering of the art of the sword, it takes a little longer than one battle to earn a reputation as a grand swordmaster. Bigotry cannot be taken down in a single blow. A hero does not become a hero just by beating up the guy who stole an old lady's purse.

Also, If your story does not at least have some semblance of reality, you will find your target audience cannot keep up with it. Even Game of Thrones is based off of real life history. (The war of the roses to be exact) All George RR Martin did was throw in some extra violence, sex, and dragons.



> One thing that i must say is that my MC will not be a "white guy". Honestly im sick and tired of that being the go to race for any "hero" in a story.



Unless you have a Japanese or at least part-Japanese character in the role of MC, I think you'll find people will accuse of of "Cultural apropriation". That's never a good thing.


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## Stormcat (Feb 1, 2016)

Rojack79 said:


> This i agree with but i'm counting on the fact that the MC is just some one trying to survive in this world and get back home. Depending on how long that take's him he could easily start training in how to use a sword and become quite skilled in its use by the end of this "story" seeing as how that is his only means of self defense. People become quite skilled at surviving when their life is on the line, even to the point of a complete "amateur" beating a "master" in mortal combat. It does not happen all that often but it can happen.



You might wanna look up some survival skills then. A longsword isn't really a survival weapon. He'd probably use something like a dagger instead, since that has multiple uses besides killing people.


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## Rojack79 (Feb 1, 2016)

Stormcat said:


> You can't have a "Mix of ages" because time is linear. A mix of styles, sure, but never a mix of ages. Unless you're writing a story where the timeline is unstable.


As awsome as that idea sounds i think its already been done by a Japanese Manga artist. 



Stormcat said:


> BWAHAHAHAHA!!! You honestly think you can master a single discipline in a year!?! Any Grand master will tell you it takes years of hard work, discipline, dedication and sacrifice to master the ways of even one style of fighting! Armed or not! Even if the character had no other obligations, no need to eat, sleep, or poop, and nothing but time on his hands, he could not master the use of a long sword within the year.


I'm not saying hes a master of the sword. He is proficient in its use. Of course if he practice's HEMA, or fight's in the SCA then he will have a distinctive advantage over the average human being in a sword fight.



Stormcat said:


> Oh my sweet summer child, like with the mastering of the art of the sword, it takes a little longer than one battle to earn a reputation as a grand swordmaster. Bigotry cannot be taken down in a single blow. A hero does not become a hero just by beating up the guy who stole an old lady's purse.


Yes it takes more than one battle but that one battle could still earn someone a good reputation. Just one step on the road to greatness.



Stormcat said:


> Also, If your story does not at least have some semblance of reality, you will find your target audience cannot keep up with it. Even Game of Thrones is based off of real life history. (The war of the roses to be exact) All George RR Martin did was throw in some extra violence, sex, and dragons.


So what do you mean by "Some semblance of reality? It's a fantasy story. It's reality is whatever i deem fitting for the story. Please clarify this statement.



Stormcat said:


> Unless you have a Japanese or at least part-Japanese character in the role of MC, I think you'll find people will accuse of of "Cultural apparition". That's never a good thing.


Ya well shoot the Japanese have been messing with European mythology for the past 50 year's now. Granted i'm not going to be "messing" with there mythology, i just want a fantasy story with a different setting from the standard medieval fantasy story.


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## Stormcat (Feb 1, 2016)

Rojack79 said:


> So what do you mean by "Some semblance of reality? It's a fantasy story. It's reality is whatever i deem fitting for the story. Please clarify this statement.
> 
> 
> Ya well shoot the Japanese have been messing with European mythology for the past 50 year's now. Granted i'm not going to be "messing" with there mythology, i just want a fantasy story with a different setting from the standard medieval fantasy story.



Like it or not, stories have rules. As the author, You typically set the rules, based on what you already know. For instance, In "Avatar: the last Airbender" Only the Avatar could master all four of the bendable elements. Other people could only master one, based on which nation they were born in, and some people couldn't bend at all. If you were to create a character who can bend two or more elements, that would break what is called "canon law" and you'd be called out for it. 

Here's a website that I think will help you a lot: http://tvtropes.org/ I should warn you, this site is so expansive and will give you so many new ideas, you may not see the sun for a week.

And Now, A blurb from Wikipedia about Cultural Appropriation:



> Cultural appropriation is the adoption or use of elements of one culture by members of a different culture.[1] Cultural appropriation is seen by some as controversial, notably when elements of a minority culture are used by members of the cultural majority; this is seen as wrongfully oppressing the minority culture or stripping it of its group identity and intellectual property rights.[2][3][4][5] This view of cultural appropriation is sometimes termed "cultural misappropriation."[2][5] According to authors in the field, cultural (mis)appropriation differs from acculturation or assimilation in that the "appropriation" or "misappropriation" refers to the adoption of these cultural elements in a colonial manner: elements are copied from a minority culture by members of the dominant culture, and these elements are used outside of their original cultural context—sometimes even against the expressed, stated wishes of representatives of the originating culture.[5][6][7][8][9][10][11]
> 
> Often, the original meaning of these cultural elements is lost or distorted, which means that these uses may be viewed as disrespectful by members of the originating culture, or even as a form of desecration. Cultural elements which may have deep meaning to the original culture can be reduced to "exotic" fashion by those from the dominant culture.[6][7][12] When this is done, the imitator, "who does not experience that oppression is able to 'play,' temporarily, an 'exotic' other, without experiencing any of the daily discriminations faced by other cultures.



Japan has a rich cultural heritage, and some may be offended by it's use and misuse. They say imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, but you'd better make a damn fine imitation.


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## Rojack79 (Feb 1, 2016)

Stormcat said:


> Like it or not, stories have rules. As the author, You typically set the rules, based on what you already know. For instance, In "Avatar: the last Airbender" Only the Avatar could master all four of the bendable elements. Other people could only master one, based on which nation they were born in, and some people couldn't bend at all. If you were to create a character who can bend two or more elements, that would break what is called "canon law" and you'd be called out for it.


 So come up with a set of rule's for the story and don't break them. Seems easy enough.



Stormcat said:


> Here's a website that I think will help you a lot: http://tvtropes.org/ I should warn you, this site is so expansive and will give you so many new ideas, you may not see the sun for a week.


AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAAHAH!!!! I love tvtropes. i've already got a ton of these saved up on my computer for later use.


Stormcat said:


> Japan has a rich cultural heritage, and some may be offended by it's use and misuse. They say imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, but you'd better make a damn fine imitation.


Oh trust me i am not leaving anything to chance with this story. I am researching every thing i can about japan and its history/mythology/folklore, and everything else that i plan on putting into this story.


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## Stormcat (Feb 1, 2016)

Rojack79 said:


> Oh trust me i am not leaving anything to chance with this story. I am researching every thing i can about japan and its history/mythology/folklore, and everything else that i plan on putting into this story.



Yes. Now we wait for the end result.


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## Rojack79 (Feb 2, 2016)

Stormcat said:


> Yes. Now we wait for the end result.



Ya. You will have to wait for 10 month's to a year but i think it will be worth it in the end.


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## UtopiasCult (Feb 6, 2016)

Rojack79 said:


> No. This story takes place in an alternate reality that has a mix of age's from Japanese history.




Which eras. It'd be pretty bizarre if you have someone in a WWII fighter plane fighting a Ōmukade. Or Tokugawa Ieyasu wearing a business suit. 






Rojack79 said:


> I never said he was going to make his own sword.




Again what era. Swords are "sold" and they are given in Japanese history. Sold swords, depending on where and whom and why and price, are typically poor quality to the ones given down through generations. 






Rojack79 said:


> Not quite. Using a long sword is a lot different from a Katana.




No, not really. There's a number of swords in Japanese history and usage. The odachi, no-odachi, the zanbato, etc., etc. Some are rather big. Most are made quite differently than European swords - the folding technique used, they say, makes them highly superior. It would also depend on whom is making the sword - what school they belong to - as each school had a different way of making each sword. 


Look at it this way - European sword, meant to bash; Japanese katana, meant to cut. There is quite a few comparison videos and almost always the Japanese sword is better. Maybe watch them. I am told a Japanese katana that "bashes" isn't worth peanuts. 






Rojack79 said:


> Not a life time. At the most 1 year of training is needed to become proficient in a single weapon.




In Japan, one of the countries with the highest trained swordsman throughout the ages. One year. Not going to happen unless his rivals are bumbling chimps or one year to him equals 10 years to reality. Gladwell once said it takes 10,000 years to be a bare minimum "expert" in any field, basically just to know enough that you don't fall on your face. There's a little more than 8,000 hours in a year. 






Rojack79 said:


> That's why its called a fantasy story. It doesn't have to fallow the law's of the real world. Beside's if he defeat's someone in a sword fight im sure there attitude will change quite quickly to one of respect.




No, depending on the era, they'd think him a witch, a demon, or something similarly negative. He'd be highly unliked, maybe even hunted. Japanese are very superstitious, even nowadays in some areas. A lily white guy learning to master their techniques in a year and beating some expert is not going to gather any respect. If they don't think him evil, they'd show severe resentment because most sword-fighting techniques are handed down for generations either father to son or very old schools. 


The only ones he'd earn respect from would be those of the lesser classes. The sort that have no training, couldn't gain access to the schools, etc. If he earned respect from let's say the shogun, it'd not be respect - it'd be how can the shogun use him. 






Rojack79 said:


> One thing that i must say is that my MC will not be a "white guy". Honestly im sick and tired of that being the go to race for any "hero" in a story.




So he's not Asian and he's not white. What is he? 






Rojack79 said:


> I'm not saying hes a master of the sword. He is proficient in its use. Of course if he practice's HEMA, or fight's in the SCA then he will have a distinctive advantage over the average human being in a sword fight.



Nope, not in the slightest. Japanese fight differently. If he was trained in mid-eastern swordplay he might stand a chance. Europeans are big, and they fight rush. To an expert Japanese swordsman, one step to the side on a charge and they'd gut him like a fish if he wasn't wearing armor. Why do you think people like the Vikings and other in prehistory never really gained a foothold in China, Japan, or a number of the sword-proficient mid-eastern regions - because it's like putting a bull beside a matador. One has fineness and the other just charges about blindly hoping strength gives benefit. 




Rojack79 said:


> Yes it takes more than one battle but that one battle could still earn someone a good reputation. Just one step on the road to greatness.



As I said prior, not in Japan. 




Rojack79 said:


> So what do you mean by "Some semblance of reality? It's a fantasy story. It's reality is whatever i deem fitting for the story. Please clarify this statement.



With what people know of - have been shown of - Japanese history, samurai, ronin, etc. An outsider being victorious over them with barely any training is going to be rather ... dull. 




Rojack79 said:


> Ya well shoot the Japanese have been messing with European mythology for the past 50 year's now. Granted i'm not going to be "messing" with there mythology, i just want a fantasy story with a different setting from the standard medieval fantasy story.



Please clarify? Most Japanese mythology is many centuries ago. Most of it existed long before European mythology ever did.


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## Greimour (Feb 6, 2016)

Rojack79 said:


> Hey everyone. I have a simple question? How would i explain having European knight's in a Japanese fantasy world? I did some research and have found some mentions of European travelers making there way to china and getting blown off course landing in japan. Would this explanation work for a fantasy world?



You have a fantasy world that people can cross over and enter, and the part you are worried about is European Knights managing to find their way there?

Just to be a little more literal to ease your worries, think of it this way:

If our world is connected to another, then perhaps Japan isn't the only place where one can end up in that world. It wasn't Japan that created that world, after all, they just based their religion, beliefs and superstitions on that world. The reason probably due to spirits or other creatures from that world entering ours. Often in Japan, but not only in Japan. 

Additional reasons might be that a Japanese person that went to that world managed to come back to ours. He then told others about his experience and shared his knowledge, insights and facts. 

###


There are countless reasons for such a thing to occur. Maybe the 'humans' in that world evolved along a similar line to ours. While we had Knights, so did they. It's just that they didn't advance further than that in the way of technology and evolved along the lines of 'cultivation' and magic instead.

Why would they need to invent electrical technology when they have magic? 

~~~

Its your story, you know the details so you can figure it out. But there is no reason whatsoever for a human race in another world to not have 'Knights'. Just as there is no reason for the humans in another world to have 'internet' or the atom bomb. 

Our worlds are different. Our timelines are different. Everything is different. But humans are still fundamentally human. They will make a spear from a branch. They will tie a rock to the end. They will carve a piece of wood into a shield. They will carve more wood into armor for their body and head. They will make clothes. They will discover 'bone tools' ... How they progress may be different, but humans will eventually invent what they need in order to survive. When we are confident we can safely survive, grow and spread, we invent what is needed in order to suppress. When we are able to suppress, we conquer. When we have conquered, we eliminate threats.

That is what we are. That is why we are at the top of the food chain. 

So why wouldn't Knights exist in a world where Knights are able to fight against whatever forces may be?


P.S.

Japanese Swordsman are known for their great abilities, but that does not mean they are guaranteed to defeat a European Knight. Not in 1v1 *or* Army vs Army.

_Small digression:_
When it comes to use of the bow, Mongols were superior to the Chinese and surrounding countries. They were the best. But its not like Europe was lacking either. Our Longbow was not far behind the best bows that existed. We were rarely 'the best' with anything, but we were never far behind either. They could definitely contend against the Mongols. 

So what if the Mongols were the best? That didn't mean our bows could not kill them.

Besides... Robin Hood would have kicked their asses 

Equally, a Samurai may be the best swordsman, but that doesn't mean we will be guaranteed to lose in a 1v1 sword fight. 1,000 Knights vs 1,000 Samurai?

I would probably bet on the Knights.

_Back to point:_
Opinions obviously carry weight, but the Holy Crusaders were known for wearing armor and carrying a great big, mighty sword. Their stance was both hands up with the sword raised pointing to the sky. People seriously underestimated that stance. With the weight and size of the sword, they could defend against almost any strike, deliver a deadly strike with each exchange and crush armored opponents with the weight and might of the sword they carried.

Single stick sword techniques, draw techniques and others that were used by 'Samurai' and other sword experts definitely had the ability to defeat a Knight. But the Knight was also capable of defeating them. Even without armor. When a Knight took off his armor, all the cumbersome weight was gone and his agility and ability increased greatly. They just lacked certain defensive abilities.

When a person lives by the sword, they develop their own sword abilities. The school doesn't matter. Ability, Talent, Instinct and [vast] experience can create a 'Master' swordsman. A master of any school can match a master of any other. 

Meh. Opinions all day only drag on a conversation. Opinions don't change anything.


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## Rojack79 (Feb 6, 2016)

Well Greimour your opinions are cerrect. A samurai and a knight are equal in turms of power. It would not be easy for a samurai to kill a knight. If said knight was wearing armor then the samurai would loose. And same gos vice versa. 

Now if they were both unarmored then there skills would be the only thing to save them. Contrery to populer belief knights were not lumbering tanks. They were very quick and agile in combat. And no a katana is not better than any european sword. In fact if the average katana came into contact with the average longsword the katana would bend and be useless. 

Thats just because of the way the katana is made. Its spine is softer than its edge. So when the edge meets something harder than it can cut through ie metal plate armour and other swords the blade will bend and become scrap.  And no folding the blade does not make it superior. And yes european swordsmanship is alot different from japanese swordsmanship. 

European swords are long, typicaly heaver than japanese swords, are double edged, and have a point for thrusting attacks. On top of that they also can be held by the blade and you can use the handle, crossguard and pommle as a club. You cant do half of that with a katana. Plus 2 edges are better than 1. And i myself have had training in european MAs. 

I can say that they fight in a campletly different way than the japanese do becuase there swords are so different from one another. You need a completly different aprouch to fighting when using a light weight single edged blade, with no crossguard mind you, as apposed to using a double edged strait heavy blade. Point being the longsword is one of the most versatile weapons in existance. That versatiliry trumps the katana at practicly every turn. Now thats not to say the katana is crap. 

Its just not ment for a perticuler way of fighting like the longsword is. Both culters have there own strengths and both have there own flaws. But speaking from a an exsperienced view point one culture will have more advantages than the other. Thats just the way the world works.


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