# Bazz's Musings.



## bazz cargo (Jan 22, 2019)

President of the US of A, Donald J, Trump wants to build a wall. Walls don't just keep things out, they also keep things in. What happens in twenty years time when an even more extreme fascist gets in and decides to turn the US of A into a high-tech version of Nazi Germany? How's that for a chilling plot?


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## escorial (Jan 22, 2019)

what do you base a musing on...


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## Kevin (Jan 22, 2019)

Does it involve the confiscation of our 4 bazillion guns? Or are we all just so media brainwashed we think it's a nationalist socialist paradise?


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## bazz cargo (Jan 22, 2019)

Kevin said:


> Does it involve the confiscation of our 4 bazillion guns? Or are we all just so media brainwashed we think it's a nationalist socialist paradise?


Good point. I have just reread(Listened too actually)* Robert A. Heinlein. *Revolt 2100. It has an interesting addition in the Author's explanation of how he constructed the ideas behind his story. 

The old slight of mind trick, using fear and scapegoating, is such a large part of Trump's repertoire it only needs the religious fervour of someone with enough charisma and some understanding of how to exploit this new communications technology to make Americans take themselves hostage. I'm sure Trump has far too many skeletons in his closet to succeed but in the future? 

This is me doing a 'what if?'  I'm not making a prediction, just working through a scenario. Musing.


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## Guard Dog (Jan 22, 2019)

Kevin said:


> Does it involve the confiscation of our 4 bazillion guns?



Guns?  40 or 50 years ago those might have been a consideration.

...but since people have now been shown how easy it is to drop skyscrapers with jet liners, and blow up buildings with fertilizer and diesel fuel?

And let's not forget about running people over with large vehicles.

So, let's just say I'm not convinced firearms would really play much of a role in any modern-day civil war or rebellion.



G.D.


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## bazz cargo (Jan 23, 2019)

Guard Dog said:


> Guns?  40 or 50 years ago those might have been a consideration.
> 
> ...but since people have now been shown how easy it is to drop skyscrapers with jet liners, and blow up buildings with fertilizer and diesel fuel?
> 
> ...


Hmmm... Despite the best efforts of the conspiracy theorists I don't see gun ownership as part of a rebellion or civil war. Very few of them are in  groups and most of them seem to be rugged individualists. The mythology of the lone cowboy is very entrenched in the Country's psyche. Religious extremists? Useful as a fear generator but far too factionalised to make any serious threats. I see nationalism, nostalgia, a sense of discrimination in favour of others and against whoever has a grudge as the main levers.


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## Olly Buckle (Jan 23, 2019)

Dictators used to have a respectable reputation in Greece, they would be put in place in periods of national emergency and then step aside for the resumption of normal government when the emergency was over, it was when those elected decided they wouldn't step down that things changed. That wouldn't preclude one being elected again on the premise of solving a particular problem. That could be a real problem, like economic meltdown and massive inflation was in the 1930's or a made up one like a few thousand immigrants seeking work in a population of a hundred and how many million? But I am sure there are many different stories in that. On the other hand it might not be so much what is offered to the people as what goes with it, the completion of the occupation of the West Bank for example, or what course does Japan take?


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## Guard Dog (Jan 23, 2019)

bazz cargo said:


> Hmmm... Despite the best efforts of the conspiracy theorists I don't see gun ownership as part of a rebellion or civil war.



No, despite what many people like to think or believe, the days of conventional warfare - or even guerilla warfare - playing any real part in a social upheaval here in the states is long past.

Armies lining up on battlefields, or sneaking around in the trees, just won't have the kind of impact it takes to make any real changes... At least not changes that won't be for the worse.

So, somebody wants to put up fences and build walls? Go ahead. Physical barriers won't have any where near the effect of psychological or mental ones.



G.D.


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## bazz cargo (Jan 24, 2019)

Guard Dog said:


> No, despite what many people like to think or believe, the days of conventional warfare - or even guerilla warfare - playing any real part in a social upheaval here in the states is long past.
> 
> Armies lining up on battlefields, or sneaking around in the trees, just won't have the kind of impact it takes to make any real changes... At least not changes that won't be for the worse.
> 
> ...


You are doing a good thing and making me think. Just for arguments sake... Real, physical, barriers have a psychological effect. As witness I call forth the Iron Curtain and the Northern Ireland peace walls. There are lines drawn on maps to separate countries and states. Trumps attempt at keeping all those scary foreigners out can easily be turned into barriers to keep in all those who are disloyal threats to the best country in the world in. It would be any and every citizen's duty to turn them in to the peace brigade.


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## Guard Dog (Jan 24, 2019)

bazz cargo said:


> You are doing a good thing and making me think. Just for arguments sake... Real, physical, barriers have a psychological effect. As witness I call forth the Iron Curtain and the Northern Ireland peace walls. There are lines drawn on maps to separate countries and states. Trumps attempt at keeping all those scary foreigners out can easily be turned into barriers to keep in all those who are disloyal threats to the best country in the world in. It would be any and every citizen's duty to turn them in to the peace brigade.



Walls offer a challenge. They make people want to overcome them... either to get in, or get out.

However, manage to put up a mental barrier keeping a person from wanting in or out... then what? What's it take to overcome that?

It's not about managing terrain or territory, it's about managing minds.

Btw... That five billion dollars for the wall? That's the cost of one Seawolf nuclear submarine.

The U.S. originally planned to build nearly 30 of 'em, cut that back to 12, and has actually built at least 3. ( Don't even ask about the cost of maintenance and munitions. Or what it costs to train the crews. )
( Or when the last time was that one actually did anything useful. )

So this whole thing with the wall is just something for the assholes in D.C. to argue over, when it comes right down to it.

A point of contention, as well as a misdirection, most likely.

Because they have certainly spent more on far less.



G.D.


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## Kevin (Jan 24, 2019)

Some current models of speculative America are Handmades Tale, The Man in the High Castle, and... The Walking Dead. 
The last one, forgetting the zombie aspect, and the first one both rely on a natural world altered scenario where there is a drastic population decline, possible extinction, and the resultant restructuring of societal structures- governments.

In TWD, the result of the catastrophy and what is left is all small scale and tribal. 
In the Handmade's Tale it is the former United States is broken down into separate feudal states. 
The Man n the High Castle is a straight forward What would've happened had the Axis powers defeated the Allies WWII and successfully invaded the Unoted States, subjugating all its citizenry? This again, was achieved by some sort of altering reality scenario ( like a plague) but about Nuclear Weapons, and who got them first ( and that's not a spoiler if you ever watch the opening credits)


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## bazz cargo (Jan 24, 2019)

Guard Dog said:


> Walls offer a challenge. They make people want to overcome them... either to get in, or get out.
> 
> However, manage to put up a mental barrier keeping a person from wanting in or out... then what? What's it take to overcome that?
> 
> ...


We seem to be on the same side. A wall is an invitation to see what is on the other side, unless it is those flesh eating foreigners... then you are safer in here with us brother.



> *OP Kevin* Some current models of speculative America are Handmades Tale, The Man in the High Castle, and... The Walking Dead.
> The last one, forgetting the zombie aspect, and the first one both rely  on a natural world altered scenario where there is a drastic population  decline, possible extinction, and the resultant restructuring of  societal structures- governments.
> 
> In TWD, the result of the catastrophy and what is left is all small scale and tribal.
> ...


I grant you my musing is not at all original. I would add Day of the Triffids to your list.


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## Olly Buckle (Jan 24, 2019)

The idea of a nuclear submarine being useful is far too way out for me, GD.

You are right about walls offering a challenge, look at Palestine, the Israelis have shot thousands of people for demonstrating and they are still at it. Yes, a wall is a provocation rather than a deterrent, but maybe that is what the builders want?


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## Kevin (Jan 24, 2019)

They built another wall at the desert side. That was a reaction to not Palestians. See, you have to compare apples to apples. And unfortunately, unlike fruit, no two cultural situations are exactly the same.


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## Guard Dog (Jan 24, 2019)

Olly Buckle said:


> The idea of a nuclear submarine being useful is far too way out for me, GD.



Me too, Olly... Especially a cold-war era sub-hunter like the Seawolf.

... after all, it's not like the Virginia and Los Angles class boats aren't still doing fine... what with the cold war over and all...

My point was that the five billion is just an arguing point. Everybody in D.C. knows it's basically chump change, relatively speaking.

They ( both sides ) also know that a damned wall isn't gonna do a thing.
( The wall will have two ends; go around the fucker. )

If it were up to me, I'd give Trump his damned wall, let whoever builds it make a little money and put some people to work for a while, then laugh at the buffoon when it doesn't work.

Seriously, if they really wanna keep the illegals out... how 'bout enforcing the laws already on the books?

It's not like they have to write any new ones, or add any personnel... ( They've already done enough of both, since 9/11. )

Just quit playin' stupid games and get on with what needs doin'.

Anyway, that's politics for ya; talkin' shit and spendin' other people's money.



G.D.


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## Olly Buckle (Jan 26, 2019)

Nearly all the new laws they enact seem to be covered by old ones. There are so many catch-all's in English law, like 'behaviour likely to cause a breach of the peace', really, if you can't do them for one of them are they actually doing anything wrong? The most recent one is something they call 'up-skirting', trying to look up women's skirts I gather, if they have any male relations that seems almost certain to cause a breach of the peace, it is probably 'behaving indecently in a public place' and about six other things too, but no, they have to make a new law specially for that, daft I call it, jobs for the boys.


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## Winston (Jan 27, 2019)

IMHO, I see that as the plan for coercive government control.  Once there are so many laws, it is impossible for the average person to obey them all.  Sure, most are "process crimes", but the penalties can be / are confiscation of property and loss of rights.  Everyone is walking on eggshells, ready to turn in their neighbor to avoid consequences themselves.  Folks, we're already 3/4 of the way there.  

Yeah Olly, my pet peeve is these new cell phone laws.  We already have "distracted driving" laws on the books, why do we need to specifically address one cause?  
“_The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy_.” 
―  Oscar Wilde 

There is a current movement to enact "red flag" laws to strip gun owners of their rights and property.  The process (generally) is some friend / relative petitions an administrative court judge, asserting that the gun owner is "a danger to themselves or others".  The standard of proof is very low, and the "defendant" is given no opportunity to present exculpatory evidence.  The police show up on your doorstep, unannounced, and demand your guns.  You are notified of the court proceedings ex post facto. The final step is spending thousands of dollars over many months to prove yourself innocent.  

So, you don't own guns.  Besides, "crazy people" shouldn't be allowed to own them anyway.  But stop and think:  Once this precedent is set, where does it end?  Quasi-judicial civil rights violating procedures are okay to "keep everyone safe"?  It started with the FISA courts.  It's not close to ending there.  
That's how dystopian tyranny starts.  Not with jack-booted thugs kicking down doors, but by well dressed, educated elites in cloistered star chambers.   

No Bazz, walls are an anachronism, symbolic at best.  We are living Aldous Huxley's nightmare, making our own walls.  
And honestly, when the time comes for confiscation, the goon squad will not be needed.  Just tell a good enough lie about a "temporary" registration and voluntary moratorium on the transportation and use of firearms... offer a financial incentive... lie again about it being temporary... wait... call the people who protest the common sense limits as kooks... wait some more... It's Permanent.  
All the Machiavellian jerkwads in government are experts on how to boil the frog.  

There will not be some event, "civil war", coup or uprising.  We simply will roll out of our beds 10 to 20 years from now, turn on the news and wistfully ask ourselves "How the Hell did this happen?"  
We already know the answer.


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## MzSnowleopard (Jan 30, 2019)

I have to say something- I spent a number of years listening to Jerry Doyle, a political commentator who once had a role on a TV show called Babylon5. His radio / internet talk show woke me up. To this day, when I hear about politicians behaving as they have been as of late, I find myself asking one question.

While they're publicly bantering on about this current subject "paying for the wall" in this case' what are they getting away with behind the scenes?

Think about this- it's like the magician who keeps everyone's focus on his right hand so that no one sees what his left hand is doing.

In short- while they're publicly going back and forth, haggling over this wall- in some back room, somewhere in DC, something is being done that they're all aware of and that we, the taxpayers are blinded too. And we're the one's who will pay the bill for that hidden project. Then, we get blindsided while they get richer.


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## Kevin (Jan 30, 2019)

Oh...Jerry Doyle. I hadn't heard he died. He ran for congressman in my neighborhood. I liked that show. My favorite ep. was when the selfish-greedy-conniving planet surprise-attacked/nuked the Shadows' world. Those  were the real bad guys, and up until that point they were allied. They're like the Neegan in TWD. You don't mess with the Neegan or you get wiped out. They're totally evil.   'Redeeming' action


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## MzSnowleopard (Jan 30, 2019)

Jerry Doyle passed on July 27, 2016 from complications related to alcohol. Long term drinking will do that to you. Still, I bring him up because I can't help wonder what he would say if he were still with us.

He wasn't much of a fan of Hillary "political dynasty" Clinton or Mr T-Rump as Jerry called him. It's times like this that I wish he was still around so we could hear his heart felt opinion and perspective about what's going on. He was neither left or right, he was an independent. While there were those he liked, he spared no punches and went right for the truth. I have copies of his daily pod-casts and still haven't finished listening to all of them. Every now and then I manage to bring myself to listen to the next in the line. I miss him, his voice of reason. We lost a great champion of common sense when he passed.

I can hear him now touting about this. "Trump's wall... Mexico will pay for it..... Government shut down to finance this wall." 

and Jerry would say. "A blind man could see this coming."

On the writing side of this. My muse has apparently caught wind of this thread and stuck something with me. "The Peace Brigade", it's possible there's a plot bunny coming from this for me. We'll see what happens.


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## Olly Buckle (Jan 30, 2019)

Hey, it's good to see you guys live in a healthy democracy where the people you really want in power get elected, nothing like Germany where they elected ,,,   

Winston, Yes, mobile Phones is a good one here too, they passed a specific law about using them in the car so complicated that it means to be fully legal you not only have to pull into the layby, you have to switch off and get out of the car. Doh. There was already a law against 'Driving without due care and attention', mind that wouldn't stop you using it when you had the engine switched off and it didn't matter.

People say to me from time to time that politicians are stupid, I heard it today about Mrs. May going back to Europe with proposals they have already rejected. No, not stupid, you can't get to where she is if you are stupid, she is not directly elected like Trump. I don't know why she is doing it, but she has a reason, devious, not stupid.


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## Guard Dog (Jan 30, 2019)

Who said we get the people we want in power?

One'a the things I've noticed is that no matter how much people bitch and moan, and complain about things always being the same, and wanting something different...

...they either keep putting the same _kinds_ of people in the driver's seat, or those people find their way there anyway.

So maybe it's not the politicians that're stupid?




G.D.


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## Olly Buckle (Jan 30, 2019)

Yep, to get elected you need a party machine, and they are the sort who float to the top of such a cess pit, not stupid, but devious as, well, devious as only a politician can be.


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## bazz cargo (Feb 17, 2019)

Olly Buckle said:


> Yep, to get elected you need a party machine, and they are the sort who float to the top of such a cess pit, not stupid, but devious as, well, devious as only a politician can be.


That is a puzzle. Right now the political machine is reflecting the confusion of the populace. The reason nothing is being done is there are not enough people with a single point of view. Most of them seem to have their own opinions based on faulty data.

The art of the lie is now the 'most dangerous thing on earth.'


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## midnightpoet (Feb 17, 2019)

Well, when the formerly commie pinko left is accusing a Republican  president of collusion with Russia and a Republican congress is spending money like water (as Democrats are usually doing) it does seem that the world has turned upside down.  

One more thought: did "1984" sneak up on us when we weren't paying attention?:scratch:


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## bazz cargo (Feb 18, 2019)

We have the hard core, flag waving English nationals voting for a Rooskie derived plan. Smoke and mirrors man.


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## Winston (Feb 18, 2019)

midnightpoet said:


> ...One more thought: did "1984" sneak up on us when we weren't paying attention?:scratch:



Kinda.  We were too busy taking our Soma like in Brave New World to realize our freedom was gone.  It wasn't stripped from us.  We simply let it slip away.


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## Ralph Rotten (Feb 19, 2019)

As someone who lives on the border I can tell you that the way the border is militarized makes it somewhat of a DMZ already. Long before Trump they have been ramping up coverage not only ON the border, but anything within 100 miles within the border.

The only other nations that I can think of that had a border patrol that patrolled so far within their own borders would be the USSR, and China.  Already, you are forced to stop at federal checkpoints that are 60 miles INSIDE of the border.  When I travel south of I-10, I carry a passport because it definitively establishes citizenship.  Every day American citizens are stopped and searched, or told "Your papers are not in order..."  You can be randomly stopped and questioned just because Border Patrol doesn't recognize your vehicle.

*But the deal with a wall is that it is a waste of time.*
See, if illegals will brave the Barry Goldwater Bombing Range, then a wall ain't nothing.
Lemme describe the Barry Goldwater Range.
It's just like Hell, but ten degrees hotter.
Humidity is single digits so even in the shade you are dehydrating.
Everything that lives there has thorns, teeth, fangs, claws, or poison.
Oh, and it's a bombing range, so it's full of unexploded ordinance. About 30 miles of it.

And despite the hazards, thousands of people a year are desperate enough to get into America that they will even go through the Barry Goldwater Range.  So if anyone thought a wall was all it would take to stop these people, they were wrong.

What's sad is that from a fiscal perspective, we need these people. *For more than 250 years, America's bread & butter has been in the exploitation of cheap, immigrant labor.* It's how we built this nation; on the backs of generations of immigrant laborers. Life sucks for the first generation, but it gets better for their kids...and that's why we do anything ain't it? For our kids? 

Ralph Rotten proverb: If you can't stop the sun from shining, then get solar. If you can't stop the wind from blowing, install windmills. And if you can't top cheap, immigrant labor from sneaking into your country, then harness it! Use it!

Ever wonder why so much American manufacturing went overseas? Because we're xenophobic idiots. No, really, they went overseas because China has lots of slave labor.  We have cheap labor too, but because we're stupid xenophobes we refuse to use it.  

_"But Ralph, if we let 'em all in, they'll take over and next thing we'll all be speaking Spanish and eating tacos!"_
First off, tacos rule.  Don't ever forget that.
Secondly; you have got to remember that America is an immigrant processing machine. 100,000 immigrants is a drop in the ocean to a nation of over 330,000,000.  
_100k is a Happy Meal to America!_

Many races came before the Mexicans, and we complained about every one of them.  In 1901, the _wetbacks _of their era were the Irish.  Seriously!  We hated the Irish (and the Jews, and the Italians, and the Greeks, and the Germans...) These same races that are now pillars in our culture were all despised when they first showed up, dirty and carrying luggage.  What we are seeing now in the press is nothing new.

Really, we are the Borg.  America assimilates entire cultures, takes their best & discards the rest, adding the newfound culture to our collective.   We're so good at it that we even begin the process before they get here by infecting them with our Rock & Roll, and our blue jeans, and our movies...  America is a fascinating machine: imported widgets go in one end, and citizens pop out the other. The factory runs 24x7x365.

We don't need walls, they just get in the way of the assimilation process.


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## midnightpoet (Feb 19, 2019)

Of course, Mexicans were in Texas before anybody except natives, and many of them are part native.  Anyhow, this wall thing is like closing the barn door after the horses were already out.  It is amazing and frightening how easy you can lead some people around by the nose (on both sides).


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## Ralph Rotten (Feb 19, 2019)

Texas has been so integrated for so long that they have a whole TexMex food culture built up around it.
TexMex is good eating (if you don't mind shitting lava later.)


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## Ralph Rotten (Feb 19, 2019)

Always eat icecream after eating TexMex.
That way later on when your anus is a flamethrower, you'll be wishing for that icecream to cool things off..


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## moderan (Feb 19, 2019)

Gringo


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## bazz cargo (Feb 19, 2019)

Toilet roll in the freezer dude.


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## midnightpoet (Feb 19, 2019)

When we lived in a predominately Hispanic area a little lady would come around selling homemade tamales and a guy came around on his cart selling Hispanic ice cream.  I may be a gringo, but Mexican food never gave me the runs.


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## Ralph Rotten (Feb 19, 2019)

Mexican food is not TexMex.


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## bazz cargo (Mar 4, 2019)

I have a very boring job and my mind wanders. Is boredom a useful writing tool?

Thinks....

Reading stuff... If more people read books would they be more open to understanding other people's points of view? Is the latest unrest around the world a sign of a decline in reading fiction and a rise in computer gaming? Is there a governmental conspiracy to cut back on reading so there is less resistance to their nefarious plans? 
Now you are afraid... I will protect you from the danger, all you need is to hand over your privacy and a lot of your rights...


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## -xXx- (Mar 4, 2019)

bazz cargo said:


> I have a very boring job and my mind wanders. Is boredom a useful writing tool?
> 
> Thinks....
> 
> ...



boredom _can be _a useful writing tool.

_reading stuff and open to other POV-
_i sat next to a shaking individual,
reading (frequently does), that wanted
to full body slam me because i would not
stop my activities and thank them for
enlightening me with _correct_ thoughts.
those correct thoughts included, but
were not limited to how the google logo
was one of the symbols for *apocalyptic-now.

*some people read a wide range 
and embrace new ideas/POVs. 

_video games-get a bad wrap much of the time.
_due to mindsets of many of the people
in my physical proximity, most other forms of
learning and interacting are preferable
to_ local leanings-actions follow
_ for me.

many of those^ folks didn't want to learn
to read, etc.
in some cases, schools may just be
saving money where no interest/effort happens.

jussayin'


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## midnightpoet (Mar 4, 2019)

I have found it quite shocking to discover there are actually people who don't agree with me. :icon_cheesygrin: Seriously I do read a lot, including from both sides of the political spectrum and found that I agree and disagree with both sides.  I suppose that makes me a moderate, whom nowadays are looked down upon as fence sitters and wimps.  At least it seems that way - which is why I'm beginning to agree with Shakespeare ("A plague on both their houses.").


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## Amnesiac (Mar 4, 2019)

The older I get, the more I find that I am a conservative centrist.
I am conservative in government fiscal responsibility, criminal justice, illegal immigration, and matters concerning the use of the military. (i.e. It should always be well-funded and used as a last resort, and I say this as a combat veteran, myself.) Oh yeah: It's not the government's business what kind of firearms I have, enjoy firing, and use to defend my home.

I am liberal/libertarian in my support of states' rights, gay marriage, and what consenting adults choose to do in the privacy of their own homes. I also think it's preposterous that as a developed country, the leading cause of bankruptcy in our elderly is medical bills. It's disgusting that there's still no national healthcare system. (Never mind the lame mule that was trotted out as "Obamacare.")

In the final analysis, I am, at heart, a Constitutionalist.


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## -xXx- (Mar 5, 2019)

my musing for the day
is prompted by _cor(e)p_us.
should net a good many images.

i will navigate my way
between many
_germanies
seeking
japans.
_
carefully.
with joy.


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## bazz cargo (Mar 5, 2019)

Just a thought, for those of you who are still mulling over morals, there is an excellent example of how slippery the little beggars can get. Job: A Comedy of Justice, by R A Heinlein.

And now...

What about AS?  Artificial Stupidity... Can  machines replicate the, real life, utter morons I work with?


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## -xXx- (Mar 5, 2019)

bazz cargo said:


> Just a thought, for those of you who are still mulling over morals, there is an excellent example of how slippery the little beggars can get. Job: A Comedy of Justice, by R A Heinlein.
> 
> And now...
> 
> What about AS?  Artificial Stupidity... Can  machines replicate the, real life, utter morons I work with?


yes.
yes, we can.
_*preps stereolithography batch*
*with flash patch*
*stares at fortune cookie*
*enters randomizing code*
*written in red*_


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## Amnesiac (Mar 5, 2019)

I read a little article, not too long ago, that the AI that Google was using, and the AI that Facebook was using, (I think those were the two), started talking to each other in their own language. Yeah, they were both scrubbed with great prejudice. LOL


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## midnightpoet (Mar 6, 2019)

I read an article about scientists making a chip when planted in the brain will raise intelligence.  Oh, joy, another step toward mind control.  The thought police can't be far behind.


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## bazz cargo (Mar 6, 2019)

The thought police are here, always have been. 
Hmm... Extendo-mind chip... How about: 'Hacked to Death' as a title? 





midnightpoet said:


> I read an article about scientists making a chip when planted in the brain will raise intelligence.  Oh, joy, another step toward mind control.  The thought police can't be far behind.


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## -xXx- (Mar 6, 2019)

midnightpoet said:


> I read an article about scientists making a chip when planted in the brain will *raise intelligence*.  Oh, joy, another step *toward mind control*.  The thought police can't be far behind.



how's that mixing with prozac and multimedia presentations?
or are those in separate reports?

side note: robopocalypse & robogenesis (wilson), read them?


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## -xXx- (Mar 6, 2019)

bazz cargo said:


> The thought police are here, always have been.
> Hmm... Extendo-mind chip... How about: 'Hacked to Death' as a title?


if you go with _in death _instead of _to_, there is a well known romance writer that might add the concept to the line-up.
i listen to them when i want to update my understanding
of apotropaic/shock devices/scripting AND off the chart improbable context(s).

you did catch _johnny mnemonic_?


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## Amnesiac (Mar 6, 2019)

LOVE William Gibson! "Burning Chrome," "Johnny Mnemonic," and "Virtual Light," are among his best, IMO.


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## Amnesiac (Mar 6, 2019)

(Actually, I wouldn't be against something to boost intelligence. So tired of STUPID... And they BREED!! 7.5 billion "little miracles." OMG... Enough, already!)

Why, yes, as a matter of fact, I _did_ take my curmudgeon pills, this morning!


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## -xXx- (Mar 7, 2019)

_*frequently found on the THEY/THEM list*
*doesn't take it personally*
*thinks _social_ science is*
*preps for the day*
_


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## bazz cargo (Mar 10, 2019)

Another thing, has evolution stopped for modern people? Now we have machines to  move us on...


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## epimetheus (Mar 10, 2019)

Evolution doesn't stop. We might be under different selection pressures though. Once we start editing our genes it will be a different prospect, we'll no longer have evolution via natural selection, but via 'intelligent' selection.


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## Ralph Rotten (Mar 10, 2019)

Elon Musk desperately wants to go to Mars because that way he can leave behind all the stupid people.


Of course for Elon, pretty much everyone else in the world is stupid by comparison.


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## midnightpoet (Mar 10, 2019)

There are a lot of people here on earth that would definitely not be missed.:icon_cheesygrin:


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 11, 2019)

bazz cargo said:


> Another thing, has evolution stopped for modern people? Now we have machines to  move us on...


Not yet, but we probably are one of the dead ends of evolution. Smeone pointed out that evolution is always depicted as a tree, it is actually more like a very dense bush.


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## -xXx- (Mar 11, 2019)

epimetheus said:


> Evolution doesn't stop. We might be under different selection pressures though. Once we start editing our genes it will be a different prospect, we'll no longer have evolution via natural selection, but via 'intelligent' selection Δsign.


_*no worries*_


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## Amnesiac (Mar 11, 2019)

I think, and hope, that as more of the world's basic survival needs are met, that the progression through Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs turns a greater number of people to Inner Space; the frontiers of expanding consciousness, a real and measurable spiritual awareness, and a stronger connection with that which makes a living creature ALIVE!  

On the other hand, for all of our advancement, humankind has scarcely evolved beyond the level of the common beast...


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## Amnesiac (Mar 11, 2019)

"Flowers for Algernon" comes to mind...


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## Amnesiac (Mar 11, 2019)

> The thought police are here, always have been.
> Hmm... Extendo-mind chip... How about*: 'Hacked to Death' as a title?*



"Flowers for Algernon" comes to mind, as well as, "Lawnmower Man." In the latter example, I don't remember the author or other co-stars, but it did star Pierce Brosnan as the psychologist trying to use virtual reality to boost the intelligence of an idiot-savant. Cool movie...


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 11, 2019)

The other thing about evolution is that it turns out all these fancy types, then something happens in the environment and the change kills off all the fancy ones but the basic types are left. You see it with things like ammonites and nautilus, they evolve shells with spikes and waves in them, all very fancy, then suddenly the fossil record goes back to the basic round type, it happens again and again, the basic types of sharks, crocodiles and such survive. Along with them there are the brand new adaptations, the first dinosaurs, the first birds, the first mammals next time, shrews or rats probably. We are too fancy and complicated, unless we are the first of a new sort of animal, an intelligent one. The jury is still out on that.


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## Amnesiac (Mar 12, 2019)

Sharks are interesting, the hammerhead, in particular. No one seems to be able to figure out with any great certainty, why they have mutated the way that they have. The shape of their head and position of their eyes is of no special advantage in hunting, sensing, swimming, or anything. I suspect that if/when evolution decides to make a more dramatic shift, hammerheads are a mutation that will end up on the floor of the evolutionary cutting floor.


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## ppsage (Mar 12, 2019)

For a few tens of thousands of decades, cultural evolution has had totally more impact on human living than biological.


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## Amnesiac (Mar 12, 2019)

Indeed. We are now in a culture competition with yogurt, and so far, it looks like yogurt has the lead...


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## Ralph Rotten (Mar 12, 2019)

Amnesiac said:


> I think, and hope, that as more of the world's basic survival needs are met, that the progression through Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs turns a greater number of people to Inner Space; the frontiers of expanding consciousness, a real and measurable spiritual awareness, and a stronger connection with that which makes a living creature ALIVE!
> 
> On the other hand, for all of our advancement, humankind has scarcely evolved beyond the level of the common beast...






As a writer I see this as a good thing.
One of the things that makes Indie publishing viable is that the civilized world spends more time entertaining themselves than fighting mammoths.
Humans are all about the entertainment, and that is due to our altitude on Asmov's pyramid.
As the war between streaming content providers like Netflix, Disney, Hulu, and Amazon heats up, there will be a critical need for new stories.

I figger that if I can keep a a buncha people busy reading my books, then I have done my part for world peace.


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## bazz cargo (Mar 12, 2019)

Right.. I have another idea. I don't know if anyone has been following Brexit but it seems to be a perfect setting for a really good pot boiler. 

When PM Tessa May steps down I imagine a Tory civil war. Lots of finger pointing, scapegoating and forced resignations. The result is a New Conservative party by name, but it is in fact UKip 2.0. One general election later and the latest incarnation of fascists are in charge. Unlike the traditional Nazis the modern Brits don't knuckle under and soon there is a revolution under construction...


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## MzSnowleopard (Mar 12, 2019)

Sounds like you've given that some thought and observation.


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## Ralph Rotten (Mar 12, 2019)

MzSnowleopard said:


> Sounds like you've given that some thought and observation.




Are you kidding?  Bazz prolly yells at the telly!


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 13, 2019)

bazz cargo said:


> Right.. I have another idea. I don't know if anyone has been following Brexit but it seems to be a perfect setting for a really good pot boiler.
> 
> When PM Tessa May steps down I imagine a Tory civil war. Lots of finger pointing, scapegoating and forced resignations. The result is a New Conservative party by name, but it is in fact UKip 2.0. One general election later and the latest incarnation of fascists are in charge. Unlike the traditional Nazis the modern Brits don't knuckle under and soon there is a revolution under construction...


Firstly, no-one has been 'following' Brexit, we are all simply waiting for them to get on with whatever it is they are going to do. Then I think it is a mistake to think that those who are elected are in charge, those who control capital are in charge. If there is an election of some sort I reckon the electorate who didn't bother voting in the referendum because they thought leaving was such an obviously stupid idea, for whatever reason, would come out and show their dissatisfaction, so there won't be an election if they can avoid it, and I am sure they can. And lastly I don't think the original fascists so much 'knuckled under' as 'joined in enthusiastically'. We had our revolution in 1645, it failed.


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## Amnesiac (Mar 13, 2019)

Olly, will Brits eventually celebrate Olly Buckle day, the way they celebrate Guy Fawkes day?


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## bazz cargo (Mar 13, 2019)

^ I was thinking of Oskar Schindler and others like him. Not really knuckling under but not making waves. A lot of good Germans kept their heads down and a few played the system by opposing the regime by stealth.


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## Ralph Rotten (Mar 13, 2019)

The UK needs a do-over. Can you Mulligan a Brexit?
Actually that sounds like a cool slogan.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 13, 2019)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Can you Mulligan a Brexit?
> Actually that sounds like a cool slogan.



You are right, sounds dead cool, does it mean anything?


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## bazz cargo (Mar 14, 2019)

Olly Buckle said:


> You are right, sounds dead cool, does it mean anything?



It's either a stew or golfing slang. Never know where you are with WF members, they are like tap dancing cats,


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## -xXx- (Mar 14, 2019)

bazz cargo said:


> ... with WF members, they are like tap dancing cats,


_*checks*
*nope. not me.*
*likes the clicking floor thing*_


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## Amnesiac (Mar 14, 2019)

Fluffy ears: Check.
Fluffy tail: Check.
Cane: Check.
Tap Shoes: Check.

Yeah... It's probably not me(ow).


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## Ralph Rotten (Mar 14, 2019)

A mulligan is a do-over in golf.


But today they voted to put Brexit on hold until June.
So my guess is that is a prelude to cancelling Brexit altogether.
Likely they are testing the waters.
I think after they actually tried to implement it they realized just how bad a deal it would be.
And the EU didn't make it easy, hell hath no fury like a lover scorned.


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## Amnesiac (Mar 15, 2019)

Viva la resistance!!


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## -xXx- (Mar 15, 2019)

Amnesiac said:


> Viva-fu la resistance!!


_*nods*_


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## bazz cargo (Mar 16, 2019)

https://www.writingforums.com/threads/181845-Welcome-to-WWIII

 Crossover thinking. 

I can see what the Preppers are about. This isn't going to be nice.

What will historians in a hundred years think?


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## ppsage (Mar 17, 2019)

I think that what historians will eventually be writing about will be the failure of nationalism as a global organizing principle. Maybe not in just another hundred years though. Slow learners.


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## Winston (Mar 17, 2019)

ppsage said:


> I think that what historians will eventually be writing about will be the failure of nationalism as a global organizing principle. Maybe not in just another hundred years though. Slow learners.



Perhaps.  But what some might call "nationalism", others might call "self-determination".  The inability of local governments to have a meaningful impact on local issues will not just "go away".
The "slow learners" just can't shake the idea that once sovereignty is forfeited, it will not be reclaimed easily.  If ever.


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## bazz cargo (Mar 17, 2019)

Sovereignty, like morals, is a slippery concept. 

Basically, I see it as a binary choice. My wife wants her country back, ain't going to happen anyhow. I want a better country, we can but try. 

All the rest is after the fact self justification.


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## Kevin (Mar 17, 2019)

How do you  mreconcile cultures that are totally different? I mean in some places they stone people in the town square, and in others girls are allowed to go by in their summer clothes. Something's gotta give or, they don't mix. 

From way way the hell over here, and totally lacking info ( real specific information) these multinational economic  'combinings' usually end up with a certain group of workers - the ones getting paid more- getting undercut and out out of work by low-wagers from somewhere else. I'm not for that, that  equalization. I feel like if everyone had their equal share of whatever we'd all end up dirt-ass poor.  Except for the wealthy connected. That's how other places are. You can't get anywhere, not without corruption. You can't go be a doctor and 'rise', or open a business and rise without the already risen coming and taking it away. Literally, that's what happens. I know people from there and that's what they tell me. That's why they're not there anymore. Those are our neighbor countries. Not Canada, the Great White North, but to the south. 

I think europe is more alike than not alike but you do have places that are not alike. These are just guesses on my part, slightly educated, but from way the hell over here, as to why anyone was for brexit. The media here says it was purely racism and then demagogy.

I can't say, but I do know that people that haven't lost their jobs over here don't complain about others losing their jobs over here. Not usually. That's how we are. We might talk about it in the abstract and we might say it was because of computers or automation, and then when we all go and buy our things from Walmart and the like and we say how good that is for people to pay less for things. I see it as taking a bite out of our own arm and saying boy is that good. I might be called names for that, America first etc. We did work for it.


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## midnightpoet (Mar 18, 2019)

As a retired purchasing agent I probably know more than the average guy why we are paying for (some) things cheap.  I remember we had negotiated with a customer on work gloves for $.75 each (volume of course) but were beat out by another company offering $.70 each (these cost around 5 bucks @ walmart).  I checked on what a container load would cost FOB Houston dock and it was like $.20 each (some 20,000 gloves right off the boat from China).  This was about 2004 but I doubt it's changed much percentage wise. 

Oh I've thought of a good bumper sticker although it probably wouldn't go over well here in Texas" "Jesus Saves, Trump Doesn't." :icon_cheesygrin:


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## gene (Mar 18, 2019)

I have read through the post on this thread, and need to ask one question, what about laws. Do those in power just arbitrarily pick which law they should abide by, enforce or ignore. America is a nation of borders, and crossing those borders by just running across in the thousands, is against the law. Whether it is a feudal system, dictatorship, or democracy, there will be power grabs, and without laws we will all become just another people under the thumb of those that figure they know how we should live our lives better than we do. 

Here in America we have a Constitution written by our founding fathers, these are the laws of the land. The Constitution has been our governing laws allowing a people to raise its nation up in just a couple of hundred years and more to be one of the greatest nations in the history of mankind.

I set here reading those bashing Trump, while I voted for him. Yes he is rough around the edges, but that is what we like about him. He is not part of the Washington elite that have been in power here America for so long they have corrupted our media, entertainment, and our learning institutions. He is fighting these people and the institutions they have set in place to brain wash the masses. He is fighting for people, that love their country and want to allow us to live our lives without massive government intrusion. Trump is doing something about it, giving us a voice that we have not had in America for a very long time.

By the way under Trump ISIS is destroyed, the same group that Obama said was a JV team that he allowed to grow murder and destroy so many innocent lives in the most brutal fashion one can imagine.  And the propagandizing main stream media never gave him credit, instead have done everything they could to stop Trump, and lie about the people that supports him.


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## bazz cargo (Mar 18, 2019)

Hi Gene, I'm very pleased to meet you.
The EU is not like the states, each country gets a seat at the table and they work on the, for want of a better word, constitution. Each country has its own laws and judicial system but there is a European Court which deals with supranational legal disputes. There are a series of rules and regulations governing the trade block. For a country to join the EU it has to have some features, similar level of wealth, must be democratic, have a free press, an open and honest legal system, a secular government and a partial or fully capitalist economy.

Most member countries have a minimum wage level and all have antislavery laws. If you don't like it where you are there are twenty seven others countries to choose from.  The EU is far from perfect but it works better than the alternative. 

The UK goes back a lot further than The US of  A and it is still dealing with legacy issues and there are plenty of bugs that need sorting out. Glad to know America has fixed all its problems. 

I apologise for my remarks about Donald Trump. From my perspective he appears very different from yours but I have no right to stick my oar in. 

Besides, if I want to see a dysfunctional government I can watch ours.

Good luck
BC



gene said:


> I have read through the post on this thread, and need to ask one question, what about laws. Do those in power just arbitrarily pick which law they should abide by, enforce or ignore. America is a nation of borders, and crossing those borders by just running across in the thousands, is against the law. Whether it is a feudal system, dictatorship, or democracy, there will be power grabs, and without laws we will all become just another people under the thumb of those that figure they know how we should live our lives better than we do.
> 
> Here in America we have a Constitution written by our founding fathers, these are the laws of the land. The Constitution has been our governing laws allowing a people to raise its nation up in just a couple of hundred years and more to be one of the greatest nations in the history of mankind.
> 
> ...


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## Amnesiac (Mar 18, 2019)

Well, the United States still has a lot of problems. Any nation does. I don't think Trump is the second coming of Jesus, but as was said, he's not part of the politics-as-usual crowd, so that's refreshing. At times, I've been happy with his performance, and at other times, his big mouth has made me cringe. Over all, he's been quite a lot better than the media would have people believe.

I do think that the sociopolitical situation in the United States has become unbelievably polarized and increasingly violent, and I'm afraid this does not bode well for the future. In fact, a civil war would not surprise me, at this juncture. I love my country, fear my government, and worry for the ignorance that pervades my society. *sigh*


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## ppsage (Mar 18, 2019)

Winston said:


> Perhaps.  But what some might call "nationalism", others might call "self-determination".  The inability of local governments to have a meaningful impact on local issues will not just "go away".
> The "slow learners" just can't shake the idea that once sovereignty is forfeited, it will not be reclaimed easily.  If ever.


I was thinking of the historians as slow learners more from the perspective of them always taking a few centuries to start discussing political evolutions in terms of praxis instead of ideology, which I guess they would indeed be doing if that idea of sovereignty was their point of reference. National sovereignty in modern parlance, is a modification of true Westphalian sovereignty where one can interfere internally if one has a sufficiently enunciated moral rationalization and adequate military. Which isn't really that far from the classical definition: Might makes right. .......... Problems of what level of local self-determination legitimizes national sovereignty plague the post-colonial world, with no real resolution in sight, and I don't see where nationalist ideology offers any path out of a world of constant insurrectionist conflict.


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## midnightpoet (Mar 18, 2019)

Making fun of politicians I think is our second national pastime after baseball; Trump is just one, there's a lot of politicians on the left that aren't any better. It's part of our freedom of speech, and it does bother me that many in the Trump administration can't take criticism and lash out.  This is not healthy for either side.  It reeks of paranoia and thin skins.  It's hard for either side to listen to one another if all they are both doing is yelling.


----------



## ppsage (Mar 18, 2019)

Amnesiac said:


> Well, the United States still has a lot of problems. Any nation does. I don't think Trump is the second coming of Jesus, but as was said, he's not part of the politics-as-usual crowd, so that's refreshing. At times, I've been happy with his performance, and at other times, his big mouth has made me cringe. Over all, he's been quite a lot better than the media would have people believe.
> 
> I do think that the sociopolitical situation in the United States has become unbelievably polarized and increasingly violent, and I'm afraid this does not bode well for the future. In fact, a civil war would not surprise me, at this juncture. I love my country, fear my government, and worry for the ignorance that pervades my society. *sigh*


Any idea of civil war in the United States must be predicated on the assumption that, in the face of calamitous civil violence, the U. S. military will disintegrate. Cause if it doesn't, they will win: post haste and decisively. Possibly the more realistic question to ask is, what political apparatus will the military install, if push comes to shove? The current president has weighed in on this question recently.


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## Amnesiac (Mar 18, 2019)

ppsage said:


> Any idea of civil war in the United States must be predicated on the assumption that, in the face of calamitous civil violence, the U. S. military will disintegrate. Cause if it doesn't, they will win: post haste and decisively. Possibly the more realistic question to ask is, what political apparatus will the military install, if push comes to shove? The current president has weighed in on this question recently.



Of course, whomever has the backing of the military is going to win. I think that if the military were to install a government, it would probably most resemble the kind of government we had when George Washington first took the helm. It's interesting to consider--both the good and the bad.


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## gene (Mar 18, 2019)

midnightpoet said:


> Making fun of politicians I think is our second national pastime after baseball; Trump is just one, there's a lot of politicians on the left that aren't any better. It's part of our freedom of speech, and it does bother me that many in the Trump administration can't take criticism and lash out.  This is not healthy for either side.  It reeks of paranoia and thin skins.  It's hard for either side to listen to one another if all they are both doing is yelling.



I agree with you, and even I and others that support Trump are not above making fun of him. He is only a man after all, not a usurper as some would have others believe. He has said some things in his endless tweets that have made me raise and eyebrow, saying, I wished you hadn't said that. Criticism and making fun of him I have no problems with that, but what I do have problems with are the relentless attacks by the main stream media on him and his supporters, carrying the water for those in power that only have one wish, impeach him, get rid of him by any means possible. This includes lies in the media making us look like horrible people, which we are not. We are just like the rest of you, we love our families, we work hard to provide for them. We wish no one else harm and will lend a helping hand.

I will just say one thing about the civil war comment, if by some reason those in power where to impeach Trump, and did not have proof beyond any reasonable doubt as to why. Instead told the mainstream media to cover up and lie, we will know about it.

It is not the man we fight for, rather for ourselves, and our liberties as passed down to us by our founding fathers.


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## bazz cargo (Mar 19, 2019)

The UK has a remarkable collection of fire-starters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Rees-Mogg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Johnson

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Davis_(British_politician)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Grayling

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Corbyn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_Farage

The Apocalyptic six.

Don't stand too close to these vandals, the smell of flaming underwear is overpowering.


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## ppsage (Mar 19, 2019)

Amnesiac said:


> Of course, whomever has the backing of the military is going to win. I think that if the military were to install a government, it would probably most resemble the kind of government we had when George Washington first took the helm. It's interesting to consider--both the good and the bad.


I do agree that militarily installed political institutions do usually attempt to severely limit the franchise (while also attempting to maintain creditable semblance of democratic principle) but it's hard for me to imagine they'd try such a severe reduction, which would unnecessarily invite resistance. I doubt, for instance, that they'd try to disenfranchise blacks while simultaneously counting them as partial residents for the purpose of representation. .......... Certainly they would retain elections in some form; I'm pretty sure there is no gov't extant on Earth today that doesn't somehow claim legitimacy from electoral process? Saudi Arabia, Iran and N. Korea all hold elections. Syria maybe? Which is an amazing thing to contemplate, even if one is merely a casual historian of recent centuries. I wouldn't put it out of the question though, that divine right makes at least a small comeback.

(ps _whoever_ btw, this being a writing forum and all.)


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## bazz cargo (Mar 20, 2019)

I am struggling to think of a plausible reason for the US of A military to step up and take over. Alien invasion possibly.


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## MzSnowleopard (Mar 21, 2019)

oh please no, our servicemen and women are knee deep in enough dealings as it is. Any more and they'll be hip deep or waist deep.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 21, 2019)

ppsage said:


> I do agree that militarily installed political institutions do usually attempt to severely limit the franchise (while also attempting to maintain creditable semblance of democratic principle) but it's hard for me to imagine they'd try such a severe reduction, which would unnecessarily invite resistance. I doubt, for instance, that they'd try to disenfranchise blacks while simultaneously counting them as partial residents for the purpose of representation. .......... Certainly they would retain elections in some form; I'm pretty sure there is no gov't extant on Earth today that doesn't somehow claim legitimacy from electoral process? Saudi Arabia, Iran and N. Korea all hold elections. Syria maybe? Which is an amazing thing to contemplate, even if one is merely a casual historian of recent centuries. I wouldn't put it out of the question though, that divine right makes at least a small comeback.
> 
> (ps _whoever_ btw, this being a writing forum and all.)


Disenfranchisement on grounds of race or colour is a product of the slave trade's propaganda, disenfranchisement on grounds of gender is much more traditional, but how about a twist. We all know the ladies like a uniform, so why not just let them vote?


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## Kevin (Mar 21, 2019)

bazz cargo said:


> I am struggling to think of a plausible reason for the US of A military to step up and take over. Alien invasion possibly.


 a heretofore unknown contagion that causes dead bodies to reanimate and become man-eating monsters. Yeah, it's kind of all been done. There was a global warming scenario- rising seas, breakdown in society, splintering and factional war (vaguely hinted at) - done way back last century , The Gold at Starbow's End.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 21, 2019)

If the civil administration were to renege on their military commitments to foreign powers, then start running the military down to save money, the military might not stand for it.
 "A strong military is necessary for national security and national security trumps democratic politics because they can't exist without it.'


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## bazz cargo (Mar 21, 2019)

https://www.desmog.co.uk/2018/12/04/spiked-lm-dark-money-koch-brothers
How about a conspiracy theory?


----------



## MzSnowleopard (Mar 22, 2019)

Olly Buckle said:


> If the civil administration were to renege on their military commitments to foreign powers, then start running the military down to save money, the military might not stand for it.
> "A strong military is necessary for national security and national security trumps democratic politics because they can't exist without it.'



the problem with this, downsizing, is base closures. When bases are closed towns suffer. There are some, a good example would be Tampa Fl. which would still thrive should MacDill be closed. There was a time when a large number of bases were set for closure, including MacDill. Something happened though, politics maneuvered, and the base was not closed. Other towns wouldn't be so fortunate because their sole existence depends on the base. In short, closing the base would kill the town unless another anchor moved in. That anchor would have to be something strong like good sized corporation or college / university, something strong enough to hold the town up in the loss of the base.


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## -xXx- (Mar 22, 2019)

_*imports crop circles*
*secretly*
*ahead of march 29*
*reviews etymology of confabulation*
*stockpiles pencils*
*of every kind*
*repeats palimpsest mantra*
*interprets turf patterns*_


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## Amnesiac (Mar 22, 2019)

The other problem with downsizing the military, is that when the SHTF and we need to gear up again, we get sent with substandard armor, substandard equipment, and we are asked to do far more with far less. This kind of shit gets people killed. Then, trying to ramp up production and get this gear transported where it needs to be ends up being a logistical nightmare, when if troop strength, funding, and equipment had remained current, it would have cost far less in terms of time, manufacture, transport, and human lives. The National Socialist Party, (otherwise known as the Democratic party), guts the Department of Defense budgets to fund their well-meaning social programs. Their hearts may be in the right place, but most often, they simply weaken the nation in the process. The Federalist Party (otherwise known as the Republican party), has a tendency to be heavily invested in the military-industrial complex, and this can also be a conflict of interest. Yes, the nation is stronger, from a military perspective, but if a society's worth is based on how it treats its most vulnerable citizens, eh... there are times that the Federalists don't quite measure up as well as they could/should.


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## MzSnowleopard (Mar 22, 2019)

I couldn't have said it better myself.


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## Winston (Mar 24, 2019)

MzSnowleopard said:


> the problem with this, downsizing, is base closures. When bases are closed towns suffer...



I worked in Vallejo, CA in the late 90's.  They closed Mare Island shipyard earlier in the decade, and the town went from bad to worse.  Much worse.  
The Statists / Socialists always think that they can "social engineer" their way out of every mess.  Usually that involves throwing taxpayer money at the problem.  
Funny thing is, people have souls.  They're not automatons you grease with dollars.  When jobs are lost, and people lose their purpose in life, things get ugly.
I have relatives in the East Bay.  A friend in the Mission District. But the only place in the Bay Area my radar was 360 degrees, 24 / 7 was Vallejo.  Desperation makes people crazy.  

Vallejo was (and still is) very Black and Brown.  The Closure and Realignment Act of 1990 was political.  The fact that an ethnic area got thrown "under the bus" is not surprising.  
Sad, but not surprising.  

Olly, Democratic politics trumps national security.  And domestic security.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 24, 2019)

Olly Buckle said:


> If the civil administration were to renege on their military commitments to foreign powers, then start running the military down to save money, the military might not stand for it.
> "A strong military is necessary for national security and national security trumps democratic politics because they can't exist without it.'



This was meant as a reply to Bazz's question about what might make the military take over, the quotation marks were meant to represent the sort of logic a military mind might use in the situation, not an opinion of mine. 

The missus has recently been on a holiday to Costa Rica and I was amazed to discover they do not have any military, and have not since the late '40s. Considering the state of some countries in their neighbourhood they are doing very well on it. It made me go and look who else is in the same position, not many, and those that don't have an army themselves are dependants of a state that does or have a defence agreement with one, At a casual glance Costa Rica seems to be unique.

Back to Bazz's question, what, besides an alien invasion, might cause a military takeover of the administration?


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## Kevin (Mar 24, 2019)

It's hard to come up with.. An extreme emergency? We have had more than one.  Even if aliens attacked we would still have a civilian government. We had the British Invasion of 1812, and the Civil War . During those extreme crisises  the generals did not take over. They had a lot of power but were still able to be fired/releaved of command (and were). We have also had at least three generals get elected president but only after leaving the military and none of them went on to 'seize power'. At the end of their term they followed the law and left office. . 

You see, were very civilized We only put up with/ support or install  dictators in other countries.


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## midnightpoet (Mar 24, 2019)

You see, were very civilized We only put up with/ support or install  dictators in other countries.(quote)

Is that why Donnie likes NK and Russia so much?  ;-)*[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]*​


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 24, 2019)

> You see, were very civilized We only put up with/ support or install dictators in other countries.


The ancient Greeks used to elect a dictator in times of emergency when immediate direction was needed, after the emergency he would step down. It only came to be seen as uncivilised after that Austrian chap refused to step down and used the power given him to stay there.


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## Kevin (Mar 24, 2019)

Olly Buckle said:


> The ancient Greeks used to elect a dictator in times of emergency when immediate direction was needed, after the emergency he would step down. It only came to be seen as uncivilised after that Austrian chap refused to step down and used the power given him to stay there.


mmm... wasn't there some stabbing goings-on in the senate about another chap who declared himself absolute ruler of what had been up to that time a republic? 
Then there was that Corsican, who having fled Corsica (from a dictator, and as a jacobin) eventually seized power in a coupdetate from the newly created republic and made himself absolute ruler.


----------



## Olly Buckle (Mar 25, 2019)

There is a little difference between 'Emperor' and 'Dictator', and the first of those had refused the crown, it was his nephew who took it, and even he termed himself 'First among equals'. De-facto Emperor but nominally 'First citizen', after Augustus they were less coy about it.


----------



## Kevin (Mar 25, 2019)

I googled "was Caesar a dictator ?" This from BBC History something-or-other was the first entry: "...* was now master of Rome and made himself consul and dictator. He used his power to carry out much-needed reform, relieving debt, enlarging the senate, building the Forum Iulium and revising the calendar. Dictatorshipwas always regarded a temporary position but in 44 BC, Caesar took it for life."
*

re the op ( yo yo) eh... 

what would happen if the trumpster declared himself president for life ( U.S. cultural equivalent of the title 'Emporer')? I have my opinions (basically no, that would not fly; not for two seconds...) 

Okay then,  ( restating the original question) how might a person or in what circumstances would a president of the United States get to be Dictator? People are bandying about that Trump's the next Hitler... Explain how it's done? Does he need brown shirts going around beating people up? Would a purge- a Night of the Longknives help? And this night of the Longknives, who exactly does he arrest and kill? Something else? Please share.

Sorry, but I'm just not seeing it; not as anything realistic. He may have autocratic tendencies but again how does he overthrow the rest of the civilian government? And please, we accept all ideas, but we want something original here ( not a zombiepocalypse scenario). We're thinking originality will help sell Bazz as the new, um, something ( eh-ah... 'Marketing'; see were very smart...'savvy').


----------



## bazz cargo (Mar 25, 2019)

Poor old Donald. I don't see him as the next dictator.  Although, he may accidentally sow the seeds for civil strife in the future.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 25, 2019)

> We're thinking originality will help sell Bazz as the new, um, something


Probably a bit too late to sell Bazz as the 'new' anything. I think it would actually be hard enough simply to sell Bazz; what do you think you might get as a best offer?


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## -xXx- (Mar 26, 2019)

Kevin said:


> Okay then,  ( restating the original question) how might a person <snip>? People are bandying about <snip>... Explain how it's done? <snip> _Something else(ref 1)_? Please share.


1) identity (in/out)
2) crisis (dire, min. requirement/subjective)
3) solution (severe, not easily reversible)

1
identity, fairly easy.
spin the new version of empowered.
package. brand. distribute.
2
test run, wall.
so long as crisis can be invoked,
system gets put on pause.
think fiscal fabric.
when it goes from "pass the buck"
to imminent destruction,
amazing powers manifest
and
centralize (no time to talk, gotta' run).
3
solution

at what point does the crisis end?

how's that for a storyline
that just keeps giving.<----sharing part

once more, i am unqualified to have an opinion.
completely, unqualified.


----------



## -xXx- (Mar 26, 2019)

Kevin said:


> And please, we accept all ideas, but we want something original here ( not a zombiepocalypse scenario). We're thinking originality will help sell Bazz as the new, um, something ( eh-ah... 'Marketing'; see were very smart...'savvy').



excellent snippet heard earlier on british cheeses.
awesome heritage cheeses.
bazz as lord of house of cheese(s)
which can have outposts
throughout the known universe.
commandeer that lunar rover,
that's what i say!


----------



## bazz cargo (Mar 26, 2019)

I am trying to save the planet. Should I have a go at wearing my underwear on the outside?


----------



## Gumby (Mar 26, 2019)




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## -xXx- (Mar 26, 2019)

_capt underpants _has a *very loyal *base.
jussayin'


----------



## bazz cargo (Apr 3, 2019)

Today I had another lesson in never underestimating the power of stupidity. Do not trust to common sense or expect any kind of rational behaviour from anyone. 

A work colleague who has been doing the same job for over fifteen years decided today to do a simple, repetitive task incorrectly. He can't explain why so we put it down to a brain fart. 

I'm not being racist, I have met many English people who can't walk and talk at the same time, but this guy is Polish. I asked another Polish member of staff if this guy is just as stupid in Polish as the language barrier was preventing me from judging how bad he is. I was told he is even more stupid in Polish. Doh!


----------



## Olly Buckle (Apr 3, 2019)

We were chatting to a Polish plumber who was fixing my mates sink, 
"Will you go home to settle down?"
"No I've found the place I want to spend the rest of my life"
"Where's that?"
"North Wales, it is so beautiful and the people are so friendly."


----------



## Amnesiac (Apr 3, 2019)

People have some pretty strange ideas about Trump. And the same things were said about Obama, Bush, Reagan, and on and on... Meanwhile, the media organizations who make all their money on panic and speculation and live or die by the 24-hour news cycle, will invent, speculate, and often, outright lie, if it will keep people living in fear, keep them tuned in, and keep them fed with whatever lies du jour they happen to spoon into everyone's brain.

I thought the media and public treatment of Bush was pretty bad, and there were times that I thought the way they treated Obama was unfair. The way they have hounded, harassed, and actively sought reason to impeach Trump, is something entirely unprecedented. I look at both sides and just shake my head. People have gone completely, utterly mad, and not in a good way. If another civil war breaks out, the media will play the role of the little drummer boy.

/smh......


----------



## Kevin (Apr 3, 2019)

Olly Buckle said:


> We were chatting to a Polish plumber who was fixing my mates sink,
> "Will you go home to settle down?"
> "No I've found the place I want to spend the rest of my life"
> "Where's that?"
> "North Wales, it is so beautiful and the people are so friendly."


 so what is north wales like?


----------



## bazz cargo (Apr 6, 2019)

https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=north+wales+scenery&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8


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## Winston (Apr 6, 2019)

It actually looks a lot like the Olympic Peninsula out here in Western Washington.
Is your Official Flower _'moss' _as well?


----------



## Olly Buckle (Apr 7, 2019)

Beautiful, yes, also near the Atlantic and pretty cold and wet sometimes, the people may be friendly if you are Polish, not always so if you are English, we have a history.


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## bazz cargo (Apr 8, 2019)

English yobbos have been sowing the seeds of hostility for many centuries. That and we have a cruel sense of humour with which we continuously keep the pot of malcontent stirred.


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## bazz cargo (Apr 22, 2019)

The machines are revolting, well my printer is anyway. I have begun to print out my manuscript, it is easier to spot mistakes that way. Only my printer doesn't like it.


----------



## Amnesiac (Apr 22, 2019)

Computers come from Heaven.
Printers come from Hell.


----------



## Winston (Apr 22, 2019)

Amnesiac said:


> Computers come from Heaven.
> Printers come from Hell.



And their spawn shall be fruitful and multiply.


----------



## midnightpoet (Apr 24, 2019)

And there are some that think the world would be wonderful with the machines in charge, since humanity doesn't exactly have a perfect history.  I'm not sure about that, but we writers sure can imagine some frightening scenarios (either way).:joker:


----------



## Winston (Apr 24, 2019)

midnightpoet said:


> And there are some that think the world would be wonderful with the machines in charge, since humanity doesn't exactly have a perfect history.  I'm not sure about that, but we writers sure can imagine some frightening scenarios (either way).:joker:



There's been quite a few Ted talks about that.  None of them point to a glorious future as soon as an AI becomes fully aware.
The standard analogy is the human / ant relationship.  Most humans don't hate ants.  We really pay them no mind.  Until they become a nuisance.  Then we wipe them out with no qualms.


----------



## Amnesiac (Apr 25, 2019)

We'll make great pets!


----------



## Kevin (Apr 25, 2019)

And on that note how about a musical interlude? :

https://youtu.be/_xvGZPAAxu0


----------



## bazz cargo (May 2, 2019)

The facts are dead, PC Daemon carefully drew a chalk outline round the corpse. Just a few inches away was the probable murder weapon, a blunt rhetoric. What an end to reality.


----------



## Olly Buckle (May 2, 2019)

Downed by blunt rhetoric, that is brutal, cleaner if he had been cut to the quick with sharp wit. 
Came across a Churchill quote from just after Pearl harbour, 'The Americans have drawn the sword and thrown away the scabbard.'
Could you stanch the wound with dry wit?


----------



## Winston (May 4, 2019)

> Came across a Churchill quote from just after Pearl harbour, 'The Americans have drawn the sword and thrown away the scabbard.'



I miss the presence of men with that wit.  The public figures today are all in "defence" mode, not wanting to cause injury.  Literally boring us to death.  
I prefer the sharp sting of a well honed tongue to the droll drone of conformist synth-men.   
I didn't agree with Malcolm X, but I found his arguments cogent and persuasive.  Now, we have Cory "Spartacus" Booker.  Lord help us.


----------



## bazz cargo (May 5, 2019)

We have Boris Johnson. He only made it halfway to a wit. 

Since I have tried my hand at writing I have become more interested in politics and the poor quality of our parliamentary representatives has become a source of fascination. Very few have any balls and most of them are women.


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## bazz cargo (May 5, 2019)

Culled from the Message Board page of Private Eye, issue 1492. This has been out on social media and reported in the Eye so it is in the public domain.

My husband and I are in our sixties and have many hobbies, including real ale, non-league football, swinging, dogging and my user-friendly granny-sex cam-to-cam, which raises thousands of pounds for charity. My elderly regulars like to discuss all kinds of things while they have their 'J Arthur' (which can take some time ) and many of them ask me to play episodes of The Archers to save them the hassle of finding it on the BBC app. Now we face a new law blocking porn sites, which will make it difficult for them to access my community service. The UK is the second-highest consumer of online porn in the world and this is a major blow for viewers, entrepreneurs and charities! 

Gifty Gracie. 

The Conservative party, for the business person.


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## Olly Buckle (May 5, 2019)

Winston said:


> I miss the presence of men with that wit.  The public figures today are all in "defence" mode, not wanting to cause injury.  Literally boring us to death.
> I prefer the sharp sting of a well honed tongue to the droll drone of conformist synth-men.
> I didn't agree with Malcolm X, but I found his arguments cogent and persuasive.  Now, we have Cory "Spartacus" Booker.  Lord help us.



Never heard of Cory Booker. Hey it has always been that way, there was soledade brother and soul on ice in our generation, but there was 'rocking robin' and 'long haired lover from Liverpool as well' as well. We are too old to be in touch, but I bet there are rebels somewhere.


----------



## bazz cargo (May 18, 2019)

And so... Time to exercise my democratic right and vote. 
Choice...
Brexit party. Sponsored by the Russian mafia.
Conservative party. Engaged in a circular firing squad and has no interest in anything other than a mutual back stabbing contest.
Ukip. Manifesto is a recipe for civil war.
Labour. A stunning display of disorganised fence sitting.
Change UK. Possibly the kernel of a new party to replace the Conservatives. 
 Liberal Democrats. Decent local councillors, well reasoned manifesto.
Green Party. The only group offering to save the planet.

Decisions.


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## Olly Buckle (May 18, 2019)

Brexit, you must be joking
Conservatives destroying each other with individual mutual greed.
Ukip, give the man a milkshake.
Labour, are they Blairites or socialists?
Change UK. Too few to change anything, will probably join liberals and social democrats in the end and vanish
Liberal democrats, want to stay in Europe, but not for fiscal reasons, reasonable, socially minded and doomed.
Green Party, on their way, well they have got an MP

My mate Dave used to put a poster in his window come election time that said "Don't vote; it only encourages them".


----------



## bazz cargo (May 18, 2019)

I generally use a question, would I buy a used car from this person?

And remember, the best fraudsters are sweet talkers.


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## midnightpoet (May 18, 2019)

If you go back to the beginnings if the Empire I guess you could blame Francis Drake for infesting the world with Britishness.:icon_joker: I mean, it's all over - the U.S, Canada, Australia, the U.K.  And we expect the world of politics to improve?  Poly=many/tics=blood sucking pests.=D>


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## Olly Buckle (May 18, 2019)

Ah, Francis Drake, privateer, aka pirate, and slave trader, responsible for massacring around 400 women and children, as well as the 200 strong garrison, when Rathlin Island surrendered. They don't make them like that any more, this lot put soldiers on trial when they shoot just fifteen Irish civilians.


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## bazz cargo (May 28, 2019)

The basic flaw in party politics is very few pay attention. The 'I voted X because my father did and his father did,' means I don't have to think for myself. How many voters read the manifestos? How many question their preferential choice? 
And now we have the childish temper tantrum shutdown of debates. It is not the politicians fault that we the people are failing to do our job properly. Blame it on us listening to demagogues without critical thinking.


----------



## Amnesiac (May 28, 2019)

Much the same in the States, too. Most of us hold our noses when we vote, because the candidates STINK!

Ronald Reagan was the last/only politician I can remember genuinely liking.


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## Olly Buckle (May 28, 2019)

Amnesiac said:


> Much the same in the States, too. Most of us hold our noses when we vote, because the candidates STINK!
> 
> Ronald Reagan was the last/only politician I can remember genuinely liking.



Luther King, shot and killed
J F K shot and killed
John Lennon, shot killed
Ronald Regan, shot and wounded
There is no God.

Not original I am afraid.


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## Aquarius (Jun 3, 2019)

Olly Buckle said:


> Luther King, shot and killed
> J F K shot and killed
> John Lennon, shot killed
> Ronald Regan, shot and wounded
> There is no God.




I wonder whether the following could be of interest:


 ‘Is There A God?’
‘Who Or What Is God?’
‘God : The Great Mystery’
‘Why Do Bad Things Happen To Good People?’
 
* * *​


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## bazz cargo (Jun 4, 2019)

I had an epiphany moment today. 

Donald Trump, Alexander Johnson, Nigel Farage and others are not modern day fascists. Yes, they are using the fascist playbook but only as a means to an end. Possibly with a sense of malice. Sadly, modern day fascists are riding in their wake. 

I suspect Donald Trump is not a racist, he just found Barack Obama's educated, smart and polished persona a threat to his own ineptness. I think Donald Trump's over the top behaviour is indicative of a feeling of inadequacy. He has no agenda except to undo all the work Barack Obama did and then enjoy the ride. Once he is forced to step down he will leave a hell of a mess for some poor soul to try and clear up.

Seeing things in a new light.


----------



## Aquarius (Jun 8, 2019)

bazz cargo said:


> . . . Seeing things in a new light.



And thank you for sharing it with us.

With love - Aquarius

* * *​


----------



## Winston (Jun 8, 2019)

> I suspect Donald Trump is not a racist, he just found Barack Obama's educated, smart and polished persona a threat to his own ineptness. I think Donald Trump's over the top behaviour is indicative of a feeling of inadequacy. He has no agenda except to undo all the work Barack Obama did and then enjoy the ride.



We get the leaders we deserve?  The pendulum swings.  After years of "the smart kids" telling us what to do, when, and how to do it, people chafe at the bit in their mouths.  If we didn't have years of snarky, preachy pols ramming their over-reaching invasive policies down our throats, there probably would have been no Donald Trump.  Or Brexit for that matter.  HE is the symptom.  WE are the cause.  



> Once he is forced to step down he will leave a hell of a mess for some poor soul to try and clear up.



Any contractor will tell you, shoddy construction is never a fun or easy fix.  Instead of hiring an experienced crook to repair the damage, we went with that inexperienced, charismatic guy we knew from high school.  
He will leave a bigger mess than he found.  The project is 22 trillion over budget.  The homeowners are not happy.    
So, next year do we hire another experienced crook?  Or a different populist with a bigger sledgehammer?


----------



## Plasticweld (Jun 8, 2019)

bazz cargo said:


> I had an epiphany moment today.
> .
> 
> Seeing things in a new light.




You need to spend some time and money on a better flashlight if this is called seeing the light.


----------



## midnightpoet (Jun 8, 2019)

A persuasive leader emerges from the crowd, the sheep, left or right, convinced that he will lead to the promised land of greener pastures, follow in his/her wake, bleating their eternal worship.  I had hoped that through continued education and experience, most would really see the light and grow up.  Sadly, the light can be but a candle blown out by the slightest breeze.

It happened in Russia in 1917, it happened in Germany in the 1930's, it keeps happening, people.


----------



## bazz cargo (Jun 11, 2019)

I fear my flashlight is somewhat low on batteries. I have a new light, not The Light. Saint Paul would be disappointed in me. 


Plasticweld said:


> You need to spend some time and money on a better flashlight if this is called seeing the light.




Thankfully, enough of 'we the people' can recognise the danger. Our Jewish relatives are justifiably good at spotting the signals. I am certain that the nastier political models are not going to spread past their natural limits. It won't be nice but it won't mean the return of gas chambers. Perhaps some of us are growing up. 





midnightpoet said:


> A persuasive leader emerges from the crowd, the sheep, left or right, convinced that he will lead to the promised land of greener pastures, follow in his/her wake, bleating their eternal worship.  I had hoped that through continued education and experience, most would really see the light and grow up.  Sadly, the light can be but a candle blown out by the slightest breeze.
> 
> It happened in Russia in 1917, it happened in Germany in the 1930's, it keeps happening, people.


----------



## Kevin (Jun 11, 2019)

Trump is not polished. More like hewn. Obama lied, lies. So what? So lots of idiots worshipped. Why? I don't worship Trump. He should not be worshipped. Fight China. Why? It's in most Americans interest. Combat unchecked illegal immigration. Why? It's in most Americans interest. 

Make shit up. Throw it on the wall. Scream, holler, cut off his head, he will be impeached, go to jail. He's a Russian plant. Hes a traitor. He's a Nazi. Where do you come up with this ? 
Fight China, combat illegal immigration, do what is in most Americans interest... Why? Isn't  that what the Predident of a country is supposed to do, further and promote what is in the best interest of whatever country they've been elected to run? He doesn't put on the happy face. I remember the uproar when Tyson said he would eat Lewis's children*. There was no uproar, here. Zero. Seriously, like... you don't get us at all.

*that was 20 years ago. Now we have a whole cadre of awoke candy-asses that would make laws that Tyson can't say that. "He hurts people's feelings, he can't say that. It's the law" They want that as law. We already bend over backwards. They want us to bend over frontwards, too.

my state just gave illegals healthcare. Isn't that wonderful? Our mentally ill crowd the state, crapping and throwing needles and we re gonna give the entire third world healthcare. That's just great.


----------



## Olly Buckle (Jun 12, 2019)

Health care seems reasonable. Decent societies give health care even to POW's they were trying to kill the week before, it is the intolerable bastards that distinguish themselves by shooting them. There are also some good reasons from your point of view, it is better not to live near someone with TB, and if/when our society does break down it is good to know that smallpox won't return. It would be even better to know leprosy and polio won't either, but the rich will have to invest in the health of the poor to make that possible.


----------



## Olly Buckle (Jun 12, 2019)

bazz cargo said:


> Thankfully, enough of 'we the people' can recognise the danger. Our Jewish relatives are justifiably good at spotting the signals.



The invasion and colonisation of the West Bank under the guise of 'occupation', plus wholesale shootings of unarmed demonstrators and the medics helping them, inclines me to think you are wrong.


----------



## Amnesiac (Jun 13, 2019)

Not true. Israel won the Golan Heights and a significant portion of the West Bank, (among other pieces of land) in the 6-Days War.

Middle East Disarmament: If the Arabs were to lay down all of their weapons, there would be instantaneous peace in the Middle East. If the Israelis were to lay down all of _their_ weapons, Israel would cease to exist.


----------



## -xXx- (Jun 13, 2019)

Kevin said:


> my state just gave illegals healthcare. Isn't that wonderful? Our mentally ill crowd the state, crapping and throwing needles and we re gonna give the entire third world healthcare. That's just great.



one trigger word, FAIR
some underlying triggers, _they_ qualify ->_you _do not
you _may not want_ to ->ref self-sufficiency, OTG/survivalism, individual agency, etc

r.u.s.h. the limb.awe has advised the pubs to come recruit you
while you are *emotionally reactive*->incensed

thought you'd want a head's up,
company's coming.


----------



## Kevin (Jun 13, 2019)

Ca's latest budget includes Medi- Cal for illegals 19 - 26. They pay nothing.  My son is 22 and he can't get Medi-Cal. Why? Because he's was born here. 
Also, as part of the budget... Any resident legal citizen not purchasing health care insurance will be fined by the state $750.00 a year. Can't afford premiums? Pay $750. WTF is that? That's our state hurting our citizens while giving away their tax money to illegals. 

We don't live on an island. There's no natural border; no moat, no entire continent beyond that to cross, no other sea after that. Imagine if Pakistan was right there at your border, like Scotland.  100 thousand a month are crossing. The latest is they are all 'refugees'. What does that mean? It means they don't hold them. They give them a pass- "Report to your refugee hearing in a month..." and guess what happens? They don't show up for the hearing. Gee. What a surprise. 

"There's no border crisis." Another lie. Highest infiltration rates in a dozen years. 100 thousand a month. That's the New York Times reporting that. Now that Trumps not saying it it's ok for them to say it.


----------



## Kevin (Jun 13, 2019)

-xXx- said:


> one trigger word, FAIR
> some underlying triggers, _they_ qualify ->_you _do not
> you _may not want_ to ->ref self-sufficiency, OTG/survivalism, individual agency, etc
> 
> ...


effing Limburger argues that trees grow back. He says why not raise minimum wage to 100 per hour. I say ok, with that logic, why not drop it to 1.00 a day? Let the market drive it. If a guy can afford a Pinkerton army to wipe out all the workers, why not? It's his business.


----------



## midnightpoet (Jun 14, 2019)

But why are they coming?  Because their home countries can't figure out how to run the country.  How you fix that I don't know.  We've got a guy here we know from El Salvador, got his green card, worked here several years, same company, makes dang good money. His main problem can't keep his pants zipped.  Lost count how many of his kids are running around, from various ladies.  All consensual, though.  We have many countries below us, apparently no birth control, blessed by the Pope.  You want to blame somebody?


----------



## Kevin (Jun 14, 2019)

They are coming because we're offering a better option. Other continents can't ride a bus here. They can. El Salvador, Reagan... I was there when it turned from mostly Mexicans crossing to Salvadorians. Let them eat cake- is the secret motto of Reagan's ilk. Seriously, he wanted his cheap horse groomers, maids. Why pay American? 

The world is not fair, I'm sorry. If you want it fair the closest you're going to come is third world living conditions for everyone; Cold War Eastern Europe. You'll have to take away from the over productive and give to the unders. You'll need a police state for that.

Poor people. There's more of them. Many more. Top that off with their cultures habit of slitting open each golden gooses belly to harvest the eggs today- and f tomorrow. That's how they do it. They strip everything. Except for a few tiny pockets of vigilantly Villages, the rest of the place is run by the local criminal families. Work hard, open a restaurant and it starts doing well? They come knock on your door: sell to us or in 15 days, or you and your entire family die. That's the third world. Same from Central Asia to Central America. Fiefdoms, warlords, drug lords, mafias, corruption, criminals. Nice people, really f'ed up cultures. No rule of law. Corruption. Take the money. They strip the forests, take all the little fish out of the rivers before they get a chance to become big. Got a tree with fruit? They take them all not ripe. Why? Because you have to grab it as soon as you see it or someone else will. You lie, you cheat, you steal. That's how you do it. Hard workers are not rewarded. They just get by.


----------



## Amnesiac (Jun 14, 2019)

Kevin said:


> Ca's latest budget includes Medi- Cal for illegals 19 - 26. They pay nothing.  My son is 22 and he can't get Medi-Cal. Why? Because he's was born here.
> Also, as part of the budget... Any resident legal citizen not purchasing health care insurance will be fined by the state $750.00 a year. Can't afford premiums? Pay $750. WTF is that? That's our state hurting our citizens while giving away their tax money to illegals.



My 19-year old daughter is in the same boat, Kev. She can't get shit in this state, even as the daughter of a veteran. Christ... What a fucking mess. /smh


----------



## bazz cargo (Jun 15, 2019)

Of the seven Jewish people I know, six are certain that Israel is breaking international law and Benjamin "Bibi" Netanyahu should be indicted. What they all share with me is the rising hostility they are getting.





Olly Buckle said:


> The invasion and colonisation of the West Bank under the guise of 'occupation', plus wholesale shootings of unarmed demonstrators and the medics helping them, inclines me to think you are wrong.


----------



## Olly Buckle (Jun 15, 2019)

I don't think there is much doubt that they are breaking international law, it explicitly says you should not import civilians into occupied territories. They call it 'occupation' when they invaded in 1967, can you imagine Japan and Germany staying 'occupied' until the millennium, even East Germany was officially free even if it was a puppet govt.

I think the behaviour of the Israeli government is disgraceful, and yes, I think the Jewish people I know would agree, but they live in this country even if they are not all English, and are not subjected to the levels of racism and misinformation that seem to be the norm in Israel.


----------



## bazz cargo (Jun 16, 2019)

They have been living in this country for generations, yet still think of Israel as home. Here, in this country, anti-Jewish sentiments have risen. Along with racism and anti-gay attitudes. All the racists I know have cheered up and are happily telling me racist jokes.  





Olly Buckle said:


> I think the behaviour of the Israeli government is disgraceful, and yes, I think the Jewish people I know would agree, but they live in this country even if they are not all English, and are not subjected to the levels of racism and misinformation that seem to be the norm in Israel.


----------



## Olly Buckle (Jun 16, 2019)

There is a bit at the end of 'Beyond the fringe' when Jonathan Miller and Peter Cook are being patronising about the other two being grammar school boys. Alan Bennet responds by saying, 'Well I may be working class, but I wonder how many people realise Jonathon Miller is a Jew', Dudley Moore chimes in with 'It's the red hair, he gets away with it.'
Miller's response is 'Not actually a Jew, just Jewish.'
There are degrees of commitment, I know one American/Jewish lady who I don't think has ever been to a religious ceremony, another English man who attends regularly. As for being 'English' it is a bit like someone I know who comes from Brixton, always thought of himself as West Indian, went there on holiday, and realised he was a 'foreigner' there. England is full of people who have come here and become English.


----------



## Amnesiac (Jun 17, 2019)

Okay. So everyone is on Israel's ass. Meanwhile, in the South China Sea, the Chinese get a pass for their massive military buildup and international violations concerning their creation of a military base in international waters, as well as all of their constant hacking and other crap, because taking on the Chinese is, well, far more intimidating and scary than worrying about Israel. Meanwhile, Israel has been our ally since their founding, and they are the lone democracy in a hotbed of anti-West, extremist, terror-sponsoring, warmongering countries in the Middle East.

Okay. Got it.


----------



## epimetheus (Jun 17, 2019)

Amnesiac said:


> ...the Chinese is, well, far more intimidating and scary than worrying about Israel...



The Middle East is on Europe's doorstep: it stands to reason that Europeans would be more concerned in regional politics there than the other side of the world - especially when we've seen Syria and Libya and just what impact an unstable Middle East can have on European stability. Also, that the UK and France had a large and clumsy hand in the current geopolitical situation out there adds to our interest.


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## Amnesiac (Jun 17, 2019)

I see. And Turkey, it appears, is the buffer. Still and all, with a little digging, what the Chinese are up to is truly ominous, and no one appears to understand what their intentions are, particularly as concerns the next ten to twenty years. The Middle East has not been stable for a very long time -- since at least the late sixties -- but as I said before: If the Arabs were to lay down their weapons, there would be instant peace in the Middle East. If Israel were to lay down their weapons, Israel would cease to exist. I sincerely, honestly couldn't care less what Israel does, at this point.


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## ppsage (Jun 17, 2019)

China is inventing the future right now, politically and socially. The coalition of non-Borg peoples will prove powerless.


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## Kevin (Jun 17, 2019)

China is a quagmire of its own people.


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## Amnesiac (Jun 18, 2019)

True enough. I think the Communist party is fighting a losing battle for relevance. Tienanmen Square cast longer shadows than they will ever admit. I believe that in the next 50 years, if the government doesn't outright fall, it will be incrementally supplanted by Capitalism, a kinder form of Socialism with shades of Democracy, and eventually becoming very similar to Japan, if I read it right. If the former Soviet Union even abandoned Communism, it's only a matter of time. Communism is a great theory. In practice, not so much.


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## Olly Buckle (Jun 19, 2019)

Amnesiac said:


> I sincerely, honestly couldn't care less what Israel does, at this point.


Except that it seems a fair probability that they developed a nuclear weapon in conjunction with South Africa some time ago. Even the small, in-efficient ones of them need to be taken seriously, part of the reason why the Indian, Pakistani conflict has not developed, the consequences become un-thinkable.


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## Amnesiac (Jun 19, 2019)

Olly Buckle said:


> Except that it seems a fair probability that they developed a nuclear weapon in conjunction with South Africa some time ago. Even the small, in-efficient ones of them need to be taken seriously, part of the reason why the Indian, Pakistani conflict has not developed, the consequences become un-thinkable.



True enough. Honestly, I think they will use it as a deterrent, much the same as the arms race during the Cold War, but that seems a very grim sort of gamble. Again, like China, no one seems to know what the ultimate aim appears to be. Personally, I always assumed that Israel had nukes as a matter of course.


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## Olly Buckle (Jun 19, 2019)

Did you ever read any of Michael Moorcocks 'Jerry Cornelius' books, the Greater Israeli Empire is starting to expand into Europe, liberating the larger cities with napalm and high explosive. You never know!


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## Amnesiac (Jun 20, 2019)

No... I've never read those novels. Anything's possible, I guess. I'd put my money on China, rather than Israel, when it comes to a nation vying for world dominance.


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## Kevin (Jun 20, 2019)

Olly Buckle said:


> Did you ever read any of Michael Moorcocks 'Jerry Cornelius' books, the Greater Israeli Empire is starting to expand into Europe, liberating the larger cities with napalm and high explosive. You never know!


No, we do know... Protocols of Zion bs agit-prop for white christian dimwits or others not withstanding...The WWJC (World-wide Jewish conspiracy) is a fraud! My wife found out she is four percent, and yet we got no check. No check?! Pffff-


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 20, 2019)

Every day when I read the paper I find it very easy to see why Elon Musk is in such a big hurry to get to Mars.
He wants to take all the smart people and ditch the rest of us.
Can't say I blame 'em.


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## Amnesiac (Jun 20, 2019)

7.5 billion "little miracles," but it seems like we're being overrun with dumb-asses. Come on, Elon! I'll gladly purchase a ticket when the time comes.


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## bazz cargo (Jun 20, 2019)

1.  Fortunately Israel is capable of defending itself. Maybe America would step in and help but the rest of us are really good at dithering. Fortunately, when the world stops using oil as fuel the Arabic nations won't have the cash to be anything more than an embarrassing nuisance.

2. There are two answers to America's medical problems. Make Capitalism work or try a bit of Socialism. Good luck either way.

3. China, like any authoritarian country, believes in its own propaganda. We don't have too. 

What concerns me is the ratcheting up of racist friction inside the UK. A mostly stable, tolerant country is becoming worryingly fractured. I don't like the hostility.


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## Amnesiac (Jun 20, 2019)

I read an essay/article a couple of years ago, that said that nationalism is increasingly on the rise in Europe. I don't know if that's true or not, because obviously, I'm not in Europe... It can be a worrisome trend, particularly when the economy becomes depressed and people are casting about for some particular demographic to demonize.

In the United States, I see blacks and whites getting along just fine, until the media decides it's a slow news day, so they stir the pot of racism. /smh...


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## Aquarius (Jun 22, 2019)

Ah yes, the news media. The scaremongers of our world, who are as yet unaware of the effect their words are going to have on them and their lives when they return to them in due course. See my note in the thread 'Quotes'.


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## Kevin (Jun 22, 2019)

Amnesiac said:


> I read an essay/article a couple of years ago, that said that nationalism is increasingly on the rise in Europe. I don't know if that's true or not, because obviously, I'm not in Europe... It can be a worrisome trend, particularly when the economy becomes depressed and people are casting about for some particular demographic to demonize.
> 
> In the United States, I see blacks and whites getting along just fine, until the media decides it's a slow news day, so they stir the pot of racism. /smh...


whats wrong with nationalism? I know that in popular culture it's a synonym for Facism, but it's not. Look it up..  Just like a concentration camp is not the same thing as a death camp. Talk about your scaremongering. 

Demoralization- that's a good word. Put it out there that everything you believe in is wrong and that you're a bad and oppressive person if you believe in it. 
What's the result?
Example: Run everything through the censors, but don't call them censors - "sensitivity readers".  
We know what's best. All art is a political act and those acts must all work toward the cause... 
We know what's best.
...
 If you don't support your country no one else will. No other nation is 'for' your country. There in it for themselves. Yes, in a perfect 'Star Trek'-Earth universe we're all beyond greed and taking from others, but we're not; may never be there. You keep giving in, giving it all away, and they'll go ahead and take it all, and you and yours will get put into the cook pot. That's how it is.


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## Aquarius (Jul 3, 2019)

Kevin said:


> . . . You keep giving in, giving it all away, and they'll go ahead and take it all, and you and yours will get put into the cook pot. That's how it is.



I believe that this too is an essential part of humankind's earthly education that will eventually be overcome and belong to the past.


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## bazz cargo (Jul 3, 2019)

You make some valid and important points. Nationalism, per se, is not a bad thing. I just see it as easily exploited by anyone with enough charm, wit and personality. When it is cultivated into a destructive movement it can be very hard to reason with.

I am not a bad person, I don't oppress anyone. I just believe I have to go along to get along. I believe good neighbours and politeness are cornerstones of civilization. 
I like this country. I don't like what some people are doing to this country. I like the freedom to criticise and to offer alternative options. I don't like being treated as an enemy just because I disagree on a minor detail. Being for my country does not mean I have to be against a neighbouring, or all other countries. Or a traitor.

Art... well I know what I like. After that it is someone else's interest. 

Censorship. There I do have a few red lines. Child and adult sexual exploitation. Criminal, especially sexual, violence. I don't like propaganda lies. I can't think of anything else but I expect there is more. 

We know best? An odd spot of dissonance. The UK is not perfect, the current government does not listen to the populace who are dealing with the consequences of many years of blind dogma. Poverty and inequality are rampant. Put enough pressure on people and when they have nothing to lose the country will become factionalised and ungovernable. We are not there yet, but...

Supporting my country, yes. Blindly and unquestioningly, no. That's how it is.


Kevin said:


> whats wrong with nationalism? I know that in popular culture it's a synonym for Facism, but it's not. Look it up..  Just like a concentration camp is not the same thing as a death camp. Talk about your scaremongering.
> 
> Demoralization- that's a good word. Put it out there that everything you believe in is wrong and that you're a bad and oppressive person if you believe in it.
> What's the result?
> ...


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## Kevin (Jul 3, 2019)

Sometimes I feel compelled to speak up. I'm looking for it and I can't find it but they're offering college courses now that the premise of which is to be against arguments of logic and reason. It sounds unreal to me, but then so does boys mandated by the state to be allowed on the girl's track team. Seems like a small thing, but I'm sure it's not for those girls affected. That's their futures being sabotaged. 
That's an example of 'them' knowing what's best. That's the sort of crap going on here.


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## bazz cargo (Jul 5, 2019)

Over here, there are mixed teams up until puberty. That is when the differentials set in. Girls can lobby to join male soccer teams, if they are of a similar skill level. Same with golf. Just using sense and not pandering to the nutters.


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