# Robert Rankin and Terry Pratchett



## topcol (Feb 8, 2018)

Has anybody on WF read anything by those very successful authors Robert Rankin and Terry Pratchett?

I've read a lot of their novels and I find them eminently readable as well as very funny. Both are very British in their humour and I doubt The Brentford Trilogy, now comprising some 8 novels (yes, trilogy) would find much favour among US readers.

Robert Rankin's heroes and minor characters have almost equal billing, equally true of Terry Pratchett's characters though to a somewhat lesser extent.

I wonder what sort of critiques their writing would receive on here.

topcol


----------



## Jack of all trades (Feb 9, 2018)

I'm not really a fan of fantasy, though there are a few exceptions, so the authors you mentioned are not ones I have read. Still, I hate seeing a thread get ignored, so I looked up Terry Pratchett, whose name I recognized. I found he wrote The Color of Magic, and looked for it to read for free, so I could talk about it here.

Based on what I read, which wasn't much, The Color of Magic would have gotten shredded if the opening had been posted here. Just my opinion, of course!! Here's my speculation of what would have been discussed. 

First, there's a prolog. The point that many readers skip prologs would have been brought up! 

Then there's a lot of stuff about a turtle that's an info dump. My opinion. So that probably would have been debated.

If I had read on, I probably could have come up with more stuff. Of course, I doubt anyone would want to know what I think about Hemmingway's writing, and I know I've been told my opinion of Dickens' writing is wrong! 

So if what you're asking is, "Are the opinions of folks here valid?", the answer is, "Yes and no."

We give our opinions and make suggestions. Most here are wannabe writers or hobby writers. We're not blockbuster novelists. We say what we think. It's up to the original poster to decide what to do from there. Sure, sometimes one or another of us will act like the all-knowing, next-great-thing of the writing world. But you have to judge each and every criticism on its own merit, and weigh that against your belief that what you've written is going to grab, and hold, the attention of readers. We can make predictions, but have no real way to prove the accuracy.

All we know, for certain, is our individual reactions to a particular piece of writing. Personally, I wouldn't have finished Pratchett's prolog. But I understand his books were popular! I can't explain how.

Are you going to be the next Pratchett? Maybe. Maybe not. Unless there's a genuine psychic among us, we have no way of knowing for sure.

I remember when I finished writing my first book. I thought it was good, but something told me it wasn't ready to be published. Eventually I found a college student who read it and gave me feedback. The feedback wasn't much, though I made a few changes. But I still had doubts. So I found someone else to read it. And got more feedback. And made changes. The process was repeated a few more times. It was important for me! 

I learned that the ending of chapter six felt too complete, like the story was over. Three beta readers put the book down at that point and never got back to it. I added another twist to keep interest alive. And so on.

I was right about the book not being ready. I was also right about it having potential. All the beta readers were enthusiastic about what they read. 

I sense that you have similar thoughts about your own work. Maybe I'm wrong, and if so, I apologize.

If you are wondering if your book has potential, I suggest finding beta readers that are NOT writers. (Ducking stones from wf members) Writers too often want the piece to be in their own styles. I think it's natural, so no insult is intended. I think it's just the nature of the writer.

A reader will give you a different type of feedback. More "this needs work" without any suggestions or specifics. That's the good and the bad. There's no attempt to rewrite it for you, but no details about what's wrong either.

Once you know the problem spots, you can post them here for help, if you like. Just take suggestions with a grain of salt. We're writers, and we each have our own style, our own way of doing things. All we do is try to be helpful.


----------



## topcol (Feb 11, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> I'm not really a fan of fantasy, though there are a few exceptions, so the authors you mentioned are not ones I have read. Still, I hate seeing a thread get ignored, so I looked up Terry Pratchett, whose name I recognized. I found he wrote The Color of Magic, and looked for it to read for free, so I could talk about it here.
> 
> Based on what I read, which wasn't much, The Color of Magic would have gotten shredded if the opening had been posted here. Just my opinion, of course!! Here's my speculation of what would have been discussed.
> 
> ...



Wow, Jack, that's quite a speech but I fear you've misunderstood the reason behind my query and no, I am not questioning the opinions of WF people. I chose the two authors purely because of their huge popularity. I don't much care for fantasy, zombies, vampires, magic etc. It's the comic writing which drew me to Terry Pratchett and Robert Rankin. Their books are clearly very readable which is my own aim in writing.

Some of my critiquers have said they enjoy my writings but have also made very useful suggestions as to how I can improve the structure etc. Others have posted only negative critiques, much of which has gone over my head. Can you understand my bewilderment? 
Thanks to a suggestion by one critiquer, I deleted the entire prologue of my saga and have significantly amended then switched around large sections including the opening chapter. 

I've tried in one of my novels to portray an ordinary bloke's life experience from birth to late middle age and have included a large number of the comic situations he stumbles into. The excerpts I've posted on WF have been viewed by a lot of people but left critique-less which is frustrating.

As for the critiques my other stuff has received, I've used most of the advice/suggestions, particularly those from who also made positive comments, to substantially amend the three very different novels and 15 short stories I've written so far, ie everything I had written before joining WF, and I do mean substantially.

topcol


----------



## Xenization (Feb 11, 2018)

I love Terry Pratchett, have since I first picked up a copy of the Lost Continent, although I agree with Jack of all Trades assessment that they would not do well on a writing forum. The modern ideas of writing are too limited to have excepted the "rule" breaking found in the structure and form of the Discworld books. Head hopping, prologues, exposition, narration... they have it all and yet it works so it is good. 

I also pretty much agree with everything else Jack said even if it maybe wasn't what you were exactly asking


----------



## bdcharles (Feb 11, 2018)

Terry Pratchett subverts the dreaded infodump and other tropes and cliches by doing them in a very self-aware and funny way. Much of his gig is overturning typical fantasy fare. I always liked one of his characters, a barbarian called Hrun who has a reputation of great strength but when the main characters meet him, once their initial starstruckness wears off, they discover he seems incapable of speaking in anything more than monosyllabic grunting, despite being mighty/handy with a shield etc.


----------



## topcol (Feb 11, 2018)

Xenization said:


> I love Terry Pratchett, have since I first picked up a copy of the Lost Continent, although I agree with Jack of all Trades assessment that they would not do well on a writing forum. The modern ideas of writing are too limited to have excepted the "rule" breaking found in the structure and form of the Discworld books. Head hopping, prologues, exposition, narration... they have it all and yet it works so it is good.
> 
> I also pretty much agree with everything else Jack said even if it maybe wasn't what you were exactly asking



Hi, Xenisation, good to meet a fellow Discworld fan. I first read The Colour Of Magic in what is now the biggest bookshop in Europe, the Furet du Nord in Lille. It made me laugh out loud. The other customers must have wondered who the strange bloke with the shaking shoulders was. That was back in 1983, I think. That same year, my wife Doreen and I met Iris Murdoch in the same place. Iris M. was there to sign copies of The Philosopher's Pupil. I've still got a photo of Doreen chatting to her. 

Cheers, topcol


----------



## Xenization (Feb 11, 2018)

topcol said:


> Hi, Xenisation, good to meet a fellow Discworld fan. I first read The Colour Of Magic in what is now the biggest bookshop in Europe, the Furet du Nord in Lille. It made me laugh out loud. The other customers must have wondered who the strange bloke with the shaking shoulders was. That was back in 1983, I think. That same year, my wife Doreen and I met Iris Murdoch in the same place. Iris M. was there to sign copies of The Philosopher's Pupil. I've still got a photo of Doreen chatting to her.
> 
> Cheers, topcol



They certainly are the type of stories that you remember the time that you picked up one and always which one.  

You might like Barry Hugharts books if you like Discworld. They are much the same in tone and humour.


----------



## Jack of all trades (Feb 12, 2018)

Sorry I misunderstood. I still think what I said is true, even if it doesn't address your question. Maybe it will help someone else.

As for the lengthy post... yeah. Totally out of typical character. (Shrug) I had a lot to say that day. 

I agree that being ignored is hard. There's a "threads you may have missed" thread started by Harper. You can post a reminder there for someone to read your stuff.  Make sure you're giving critiques, too, or some might feel you're taking more than giving and you'll get the cold shoulder.  

Another reason you might not get responses is because there's not anything that jumps out at any of those who read it.


----------



## Jack of all trades (Feb 12, 2018)

bdcharles said:


> Terry Pratchett subverts the dreaded infodump and other tropes and cliches by doing them in a very self-aware and funny way. Much of his gig is overturning typical fantasy fare. I always liked one of his characters, a barbarian called Hrun who has a reputation of great strength but when the main characters meet him, once their initial starstruckness wears off, they discover he seems incapable of speaking in anything more than monosyllabic grunting, despite being mighty/handy with a shield etc.



As I said, I didn't make it through the prolog, so what he did didn't work for me. Therefore I can't recommend it.


----------



## Xenization (Feb 12, 2018)

bdcharles said:


> Terry Pratchett subverts the dreaded infodump and other tropes and cliches by doing them in a very self-aware and funny way. Much of his gig is overturning typical fantasy fare. I always liked one of his characters, a barbarian called Hrun who has a reputation of great strength but when the main characters meet him, once their initial starstruckness wears off, they discover he seems incapable of speaking in anything more than monosyllabic grunting, despite being mighty/handy with a shield etc.



Personally, I prefer Conan the Barbarian... a Lifetime in his own Legend.


----------



## Roac (Feb 12, 2018)

I have read almost every Discworld novel by Pratchett and thoroughly enjoyed them. His type of British humour is so much fun to read. 

As for Robert Rankin…never heard of him. But if you compare him to Pratchett, I will be looking into his books soon.

It is an interesting question you pose about the types of critiques they would receive. When I read Pratchett it was always as a pure reader, without giving the structure/style/words etc. much thought. I just enjoyed the stories. I might have to go to my bookshelf and see what his early works look like and look at them with more of a critique eye. And I wonder how they compare to his later novels.

Topcol, how would you critique _The Colour of Magic_? Jack has some interesting comments.


----------



## topcol (Feb 13, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> I'm not really a fan of fantasy, though there are a few exceptions, so the authors you mentioned are not ones I have read. Still, I hate seeing a thread get ignored, so I looked up Terry Pratchett, whose name I recognized. I found he wrote The Color of Magic, and looked for it to read for free, so I could talk about it here.
> Based on what I read, which wasn't much, The Color of Magic would have gotten shredded if the opening had been posted here. Just my opinion, of course!! Here's my speculation of what would have been discussed.
> First, there's a prolog. The point that many readers skip prologs would have been brought up.  _I don't skip prologues, I presume the author uses the prologue for a reason and if it's well written, ie readable, I'll read it._
> Then there's a lot of stuff about a turtle that's an info dump. My opinion. So that probably would have been debated. _This too is essential for understanding the Discworld physical structure._
> ...



Thanks again, Jack
topcol


----------



## topcol (Feb 13, 2018)

Roac said:


> I have read almost every Discworld novel by Pratchett and thoroughly enjoyed them. His type of British humour is so much fun to read.
> As for Robert Rankin…never heard of him. But if you compare him to Pratchett, I will be looking into his books soon.
> It is an interesting question you pose about the types of critiques they would receive. When I read Pratchett it was always as a pure reader, without giving the structure/style/words etc. much thought. I just enjoyed the stories. I might have to go to my bookshelf and see what his early works look like and look at them with more of a critique eye. And I wonder how they compare to his later novels.
> Topcol, how would you critique _The Colour of Magic_? Jack has some interesting comments.



Hi again, Roac. I'm surprised you got on well with Terry Pratchett's books. They are, as you remark, written in a very British humorous style.
Robert Rankin is very different and even more localised as his books are all set in the London Borough of Brentford. They always begin by describing the idiosyncratic activities of certain well-defined local characters. There are two main protagonists but all the minor characters play important parts in the books. Each book juxtaposes the everyday with some fantastic happening.
That may put you off but who knows?

As for critiquing The Colour Of Magic, I'm still crap at it because if something gives me pleasure or increases my store of knowledge I'll read it. As I've said elsewhere, I was among other things an English language teacher for many years and my SPaG ability is second to none so those aspects of a book and any obvious anachronisms are the only things which I notice as negatives. Any area of knowledge which is new to me I will google and I always expect to learn something new from whatever I read.

Despite having had one of my short stories selected for Flashes Of Brilliance, I think I'll be leaving WF very soon as I don't think I can provide anybody with a helpful critique and my latest postings have been largely ignored whereas my thread Responding to Criticism in the Discussion section has had over 2,400 views and 92 replies so far. Perhaps the name should be changed to Writing Critiquers' Forum.
Bye
topcol


----------



## Xenization (Feb 13, 2018)

topcol said:


> Hi again, Roac. I'm surprised you got on well with Terry Pratchett's books. They are, as you remark, written in a very British humorous style.
> Robert Rankin is very different and even more localised as his books are all set in the London Borough of Brentford. They always begin by describing the idiosyncratic activities of certain well-defined local characters. There are two main protagonists but all the minor characters play important parts in the books. Each book juxtaposes the everyday with some fantastic happening.
> That may put you off but who knows?
> 
> ...



I have to confess to being a bit worried by what you have said here. I myself am not going to be doing many if any critiques as I have recently run out of critiquing steam and mostly joined just to have a place to talk about other aspects of writing. 

However, if this forum is one that is closed if you don't "put out" this might be a short stay. I mean it is no fun at all being on a forum where you never get to chat about anything and are ignored.


----------



## Jack of all trades (Feb 13, 2018)

topcol said:


> Thanks again, Jack
> topcol



You're welcome.

My point about thanking those that critique was not implying that you were unappreciative. I was offering friendly advice that if you disagree with a critique clicking thanks and moving on is a polite way to handle the situation without it escslating. I learned the hard way to do that. I am trying to save you a bit of suffering.

As for being ignored, it happens to everyone once in a while. I'm being ignored on a thread I started about TV or movie titles and the number of fonts. I was asked for clarification, which I provided. Now there's no new activity. I wish there would be, but I have to accept that they simply might be busy or not know how to answer my question.

One thing about this place is the people change. There are some who seem to be permanent fixtures, but others come and go, only to return again. Maybe tomorrow or next week will be better for you.


----------



## Jack of all trades (Feb 13, 2018)

topcol said:


> Hi again, Roac. I'm surprised you got on well with Terry Pratchett's books. They are, as you remark, written in a very British humorous style.
> Robert Rankin is very different and even more localised as his books are all set in the London Borough of Brentford. They always begin by describing the idiosyncratic activities of certain well-defined local characters. There are two main protagonists but all the minor characters play important parts in the books. Each book juxtaposes the everyday with some fantastic happening.
> That may put you off but who knows?
> 
> ...



At least you had something selected for Flashes. Not everyone does.


----------



## bdcharles (Feb 13, 2018)

topcol said:


> Despite having had one of my short stories selected for Flashes Of Brilliance, I think I'll be leaving WF very soon as I don't think I can provide anybody with a helpful critique and my latest postings have been largely ignored whereas my thread Responding to Criticism in the Discussion section has had over 2,400 views and 92 replies so far. Perhaps the name should be changed to Writing Critiquers' Forum.
> Bye
> topcol



92 replies? Wow. I don't think I've ever had that many. As for useful critique, even just reading and replying with something like "I liked it up to here and then you lost me because of X" is helpful. Sorry you feel this way though. All I can say is that a little give and take goes a long way, but if you really don't feel you can offer much in terms of crit, then just say so, upfront.




Xenization said:


> I have to confess to being a bit worried by  what you have said here. I myself am not going to be doing many if any  critiques as I have recently run out of critiquing steam and mostly  joined just to have a place to talk about other aspects of writing.
> 
> However, if this forum is one that is closed if you don't "put out" this  might be a short stay. I mean it is no fun at all being on a forum  where you never get to chat about anything and are ignored.



It  isn't really like that across the board. Many people don't critique for  a variety of reasons. Some people just chat away in the discussion forums. But I suppose if someone posts volumes of their work, expects critique, doesn't reciprocate when it's given, and complains when their stuff is left gathering dust, then responding further is a pretty hard sell. Time is a commodity, and we all have our own stories to write.


----------



## Roac (Feb 13, 2018)

topcol said:


> Hi again, Roac. I'm surprised you got on well with Terry Pratchett's books. They are, as you remark, written in a very British humorous style.
> Robert Rankin is very different and even more localised as his books are all set in the London Borough of Brentford. They always begin by describing the idiosyncratic activities of certain well-defined local characters. There are two main protagonists but all the minor characters play important parts in the books. Each book juxtaposes the everyday with some fantastic happening.
> That may put you off but who knows?
> 
> ...




Hi Topcol. So I have this weird fondness for British humour….not sure why…but I just really enjoy it. I particularly like the TV shows, though before such things as the internet or netflix, it was hard to get them here in Canada. Shows like Fawlty Towers, Monty Pythons Flying Circus, Last of the summer wine, Butterflies, On the buses, Chef, etc were all part of my formative years. Not to mention the classic Dr. Who (the new series is ok but the old ones are so much better!!).

As for you leaving WF…well I would say that sucks. I have enjoyed reading your stories and topics posted in the writing discussions and I was hoping you would post more. I have read a few of your recent stories but I have not had a chance to post any comments. I would not be too discouraged if there is a lack of comments for the stories, I have seen this happen to many people and I don’t think it is a reflection of your writing. I think the lack of comments is more related to the time it takes to sit down and read a long-ish posted story and then provide helpful feedback. It is so much easier to reply to a simple posted question in the discussions section and to view the, often funny, bantering that goes back and forth between members. 

If you are going to leave…well it was nice to have chatted. Otherwise, I hope to see you stick around. The forum is a fantastic place to learn this craft. Not everyone provides critiques, some just chat and some provide really valuable information in the discussions. For myself, prior to this forum, I had never critiqued anything before and I found it difficult at first (and still do) to provide feedback but I use it as an opportunity to learn and have fun. Whatever your decision, I wish you the best!


----------



## Xenization (Feb 13, 2018)

bdcharles said:


> It isn't really like that across the board. Many people don't critique for a variety of reasons. Some people just chat away in the discussion forums. But I suppose if someone posts volumes of their work, expects critique, doesn't reciprocate when it's given, and complains when their stuff is left gathering dust, then responding further is a pretty hard sell. Time is a commodity, and we all have our own stories to write.



Why does half of this reply seem like A. a way of saying you need to put out to get anything and B. an underhanded jab at Topcol for saying anything about the subject? Not. Cool.


----------



## Bayview (Feb 13, 2018)

topcol said:


> Despite having had one of my short stories selected for Flashes Of Brilliance, I think I'll be leaving WF very soon as I don't think I can provide anybody with a helpful critique and my latest postings have been largely ignored whereas my thread Responding to Criticism in the Discussion section has had over 2,400 views and 92 replies so far. Perhaps the name should be changed to Writing Critiquers' Forum.
> Bye
> topcol



What posts do you feel aren't getting adequate attention?


----------



## topcol (Feb 14, 2018)

Xenization said:


> Personally, I prefer Conan the Barbarian... a Lifetime in his own Legend.



I read the Conan books when I was in my early 20s, really enjoyed them. The names of all the legendary regions and peoples made me want to know more and I was pleased to discover that most of them had existed at one time or another. I've always had a penchant for ancient Middle Eastern history. I also enjoyed the movies with Arnie playing Conan, very easy watching.
 I really like those reversed sayings, yours is good. One of my favourites is about the monk who had a pet rat which was killed one day by a fellow monk. The first monk says to the second, 'You dirty brother, you killed my rat.'


----------



## topcol (Feb 14, 2018)

Roac said:


> Hi Topcol. So I have this weird fondness for British humour….not sure why…but I just really enjoy it. I particularly like the TV shows, though before such things as the internet or netflix, it was hard to get them here in Canada. Shows like Fawlty Towers, Monty Pythons Flying Circus, Last of the summer wine, Butterflies, On the buses, Chef, etc were all part of my formative years. Not to mention the classic Dr. Who (the new series is ok but the old ones are so much better!!).
> 
> As for you leaving WF…well I would say that sucks. I have enjoyed reading your stories and topics posted in the writing discussions and I was hoping you would post more. I have read a few of your recent stories but I have not had a chance to post any comments. I would not be too discouraged if there is a lack of comments for the stories, I have seen this happen to many people and I don’t think it is a reflection of your writing. I think the lack of comments is more related to the time it takes to sit down and read a long-ish posted story and then provide helpful feedback. It is so much easier to reply to a simple posted question in the discussions section and to view the, often funny, bantering that goes back and forth between members.
> 
> If you are going to leave…well it was nice to have chatted. Otherwise, I hope to see you stick around. The forum is a fantastic place to learn this craft. Not everyone provides critiques, some just chat and some provide really valuable information in the discussions. For myself, prior to this forum, I had never critiqued anything before and I found it difficult at first (and still do) to provide feedback but I use it as an opportunity to learn and have fun. Whatever your decision, I wish you the best!



Hi again Roac, thank you very much for those kind words, that is a really encouraging response and I do like a bit of banter, it was one of the things that kept us sane in the RAF. Yourself, Xenisation, SueC, Olly Buckle, PiP and several others have been very supportive and offered me some wise advice which I have followed and will continue to do so.

By the way, have you ever seen any of the Only Fools And Horses series with Del Boy, his younger brother Rodney and other assorted characters? It is one of the most British expositions of Brit humour you will ever see. Many of the sayings are now part of Britspeak and certain scenes are regularly re-played on TV. I think most people's favourite is the Batman & Robin incident.
Red Dwarf is pretty funny too.


----------



## bdcharles (Feb 14, 2018)

Xenization said:


> Why does half of this reply seem like A. a way of saying you need to put out to get anything and B. an underhanded jab at Topcol for saying anything about the subject? Not. Cool.



Picture this: a user comes on - and topcol, you haven't done this, so this is not a dig at you, but it has happened - floods the forum with posts, none of which give any indication of what they want, expects critique and responses and attention but doesn't give any in return. How would you feel about such a user? Personally, I may reply to them once but if they persist, it becomes apparent that it's simply not the best use of my time. Again, topcol, this is not at you, though I did wonder at one response, and maybe I was feeling a bit put out at the comment here, as I have replied to you in the past. But you can raise it and talk about it by all means.


----------



## Jack of all trades (Feb 14, 2018)

bdcharles said:


> Picture this: a user comes on - and topcol, you haven't done this, so this is not a dig at you, but it has happened - floods the forum with posts, none of which give any indication of what they want, expects critique and responses and attention but doesn't give any in return. How would you feel about such a user? Personally, I may reply to them once but if they persist, it becomes apparent that it's simply not the best use of my time. Again, topcol, this is not at you, though I did wonder at one response, and maybe I was feeling a bit put out at the comment here, as I have replied to you in the past. But you can raise it and talk about it by all means.




But... but... how else can I get attention? :lol:


----------



## topcol (Feb 14, 2018)

bdcharles said:


> Terry Pratchett subverts the dreaded infodump and other tropes and cliches by doing them in a very self-aware and funny way. Much of his gig is overturning typical fantasy fare. I always liked one of his characters, a barbarian called Hrun who has a reputation of great strength but when the main characters meet him, once their initial starstruckness wears off, they discover he seems incapable of speaking in anything more than monosyllabic grunting, despite being mighty/handy with a shield etc.



"Terry Pratchett subverts the dreaded infodump and other tropes and cliches by doing them in a very self-aware and funny way. Much of his gig is overturning typical fantasy fare."
Hi bdcharles, very neatly worded, I couldn't have put it any more precisely or concisely.

topcol


----------



## Pete_C (Feb 14, 2018)

Xenization said:


> Why does half of this reply seem like A. a way of saying you need to put out to get anything and B. an underhanded jab at Topcol for saying anything about the subject? Not. Cool.



You have to look at it in a different way. Not everyone has the same amount of time to spend offering critiques. For example, I have a job with a huge workload, an old farmhouse to rebuild, a novel to finish and edit, other writing projects to fulfil, an other half to spend time with and a bunch of other stuff that makes up life. If I spend time critiquing I try to add value, so it's not a 10 minute thing and that means something has to give.

Yes, I will deliberately give more attention to writers that respond to my workshopping. I don't expect a comment for a comment, but if we're all helping each other then it has to be a two-way thing.

My thinking (and I stress the word 'my') on workshopping is this: I was concerned about voice on the start of my novel so I posted a piece from the first chapter. I received a few comments but two of those resonated. As a result I removed the piece to save people time and effort, because I could see where I was tripping myself up. The two comments that resonated came from people who often give crits on my work and mine of theirs. This isn't 'put out or get out', but the fact that we have learned a lot about each others' styles over time. That is invaluable. I then reposted a revision, received feedback on that and once having got to where I wanted to go I took it back down again. Unless I hit difficulties or want anther point of view, I won't post anything further from the novel. Workshopping is about revisions and tweaking; there's only so much of that other people can do.

It is also worth noting that generally when people workshop multiple pieces, one will gain more response than others. This is because it's better to dissect one piece to find out what is wrong or to rectify issues than to prod at a dozen and not really get to the root of issues. That's why I prefer to focus on one piece from someone, until it's done.

It's also important for anyone to realise that critiquing isn't difficult. As a reader you feel things about the works you read. Just tell others what those things are. What worked? What didn't? Did you feel empathy with a character? Did you hate a character? It's all valuable feedback and it's all part of the process.

I appreciate you're trying to defend Topcol, but I don't think anyone is putting him down.


----------



## Pete_C (Feb 14, 2018)

I've never read Pratchett; I always thought he would be too 'fantasy' for me. That said, I didn't watch Game of Thrones either for the same reason until someone told me about naked whores getting shot with crossbows!!!


----------



## topcol (Feb 14, 2018)

Pete_C said:


> You have to look at it in a different way. Not everyone has the same amount of time to spend offering critiques. _Very true, Pete_C, I am definitely at an advantage being an OAP, I will try harder._
> Yes, I will deliberately give more attention to writers that respond to my workshopping. I don't expect a comment for a comment, but if we're all helping each other then it has to be a two-way thing.
> My thinking (and I stress the word 'my') on workshopping is this: I was concerned about voice on the start of my novel so I posted a piece from the first chapter. I received a few comments but two of those resonated. As a result I removed the piece to save people time and effort, because I could see where I was tripping myself up.
> _Yes, I did this too after my prologue to Little Acorns was slaughtered. I immediately deleted the entire thing. After a few more critiques about the first chapter of Veronica, I swapped the two halves around, chopping here and there into the bargain._
> ...



Cheers, topcol


----------



## Pete_C (Feb 14, 2018)

topcol said:


> _What if the reader doesn't like anything in the piece? Do you just back away without offering anything or do you get your hammer out?_



Sometimes you learn more from a hammer to the head than a tickle around the testicles, as we used to say in the Smoke!

There's a difference between not liking something because it's not to your taste, and not liking it because something is wrong with the writing. 

Many years ago someone who was much wiser than I was told me, 'If a reader likes what you've written, thank them and move on. If they hate it, buy them a beer and listen to every word they say.'

We don't have to act on critiques, but it's always worth listening to them.

I was once told I had two writing styles: lads-down-the-pub irony and ironic lads down the pub! At the time I wasn't best pleased, but sometimes my best work comes when I approach things via one of those two styles. 

Critiques are like TCP: it can sting but it's doing you good!


----------



## topcol (Feb 14, 2018)

Pete_C said:


> Sometimes you learn more from a hammer to the head than a tickle around the testicles, as we used to say in the Smoke!
> 
> There's a difference between not liking something because it's not to your taste, and not liking it because something is wrong with the writing.
> 
> ...



Points taken in and being digested, Pete_C

And TCP stinks something horrible, too!

Cheers, topcol


----------



## Jack of all trades (Feb 14, 2018)

I hope I don't smack myself in the head for not knowing this -- what is TCP?


----------



## Roac (Feb 14, 2018)

topcol said:


> Hi again Roac, thank you very much for those kind words, that is a really encouraging response and I do like a bit of banter, it was one of the things that kept us sane in the RAF. Yourself, Xenisation, SueC, Olly Buckle, PiP and several others have been very supportive and offered me some wise advice which I have followed and will continue to do so.
> 
> By the way, have you ever seen any of the Only Fools And Horses series with Del Boy, his younger brother Rodney and other assorted characters? It is one of the most British expositions of Brit humour you will ever see. Many of the sayings are now part of Britspeak and certain scenes are regularly re-played on TV. I think most people's favourite is the Batman & Robin incident.
> Red Dwarf is pretty funny too.




I am glad to help in any way.

As for Only Fools And Horses, I have never heard of it but I just did a google search. Looks really good! I will have to try and find some episodes. 

And yes Red Dwarf is brilliant…I have the whole series on DVD.

I should have also added Black Adder to that previous list.


----------



## Xenization (Feb 15, 2018)

topcol said:


> I read the Conan books when I was in my early 20s, really enjoyed them. The names of all the legendary regions and peoples made me want to know more and I was pleased to discover that most of them had existed at one time or another. I've always had a penchant for ancient Middle Eastern history. I also enjoyed the movies with Arnie playing Conan, very easy watching.
> I really like those reversed sayings, yours is good. One of my favourites is about the monk who had a pet rat which was killed one day by a fellow monk. The first monk says to the second, 'You dirty brother, you killed my rat.'



Well I can't take the credit as Conan that I was referring to is a character is some of the Discworld novels, however, I got his name wrong - it is CoHEN, not CoNAN . lol And the mixed up saying is what Rincewind says to his when they first meet. 

I like the Rat one - mostly as it is something I am likely to say, I love rats and have has a number as pets over the years 

I haven't actually read any of the Conan bo


----------



## Pete_C (Feb 15, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> I hope I don't smack myself in the head for not knowing this -- what is TCP?



TCP is trichlorophenylmethyliodosalicyl. There, you knew that all along, didn't you?

It's an antiseptic much beloved in the UK and other parts of Europe that was popular in the 1960s and 1970s; not so much today. It pretty much kills everything, but is too aggressive. It stings like a bee and stinks like a toxic chemical dump, but it works. When I was a kid I got a fishing hook stuck in my face. To get the barb out I just pulled it as hard as I could. The tear got infected so I doused it in TCP a few times a day. The TCP was so aggressive it burned the skin and killed it off. That said, it killed the infection too. Even today, 45 years later, if I get a sun tan there's a white bit of dead flesh on my cheek!

If you cut your arm off, you could rub the stump down with TCP, go to bed and in the morning you'd have grown a new arm, a really big strong one that you could use to crush steel. It really is that good. I love it but my other half hates it with a passion, as do many people who have encountered its napalm-like qualities.


----------



## Xenization (Feb 15, 2018)

bdcharles said:


> Picture this: a user comes on - and topcol, you haven't done this, so this is not a dig at you, but it has happened - floods the forum with posts, none of which give any indication of what they want, expects critique and responses and attention but doesn't give any in return. How would you feel about such a user? Personally, I may reply to them once but if they persist, it becomes apparent that it's simply not the best use of my time. Again, topcol, this is not at you, though I did wonder at one response, and maybe I was feeling a bit put out at the comment here, as I have replied to you in the past. But you can raise it and talk about it by all means.



Honestly? Unless they were spamming the shit out the forum with "Please buy" comments I would treat them like any other memeber. They might just not be ready to critque something or just be looking for some technical advice... as long as they do engage it the topics they start then... I see no problem at all with them sticking to their own threads or not critiquing others. 

This idea that many forums have that you need to put out to get anything isn't very helpful to the new writer, which lets be honest here, is who most of these forums are aimed at. But that is just my thoughts on the matter, WF seems to hold another so there really isn't much point in me saying this even.


----------



## bdcharles (Feb 15, 2018)

Xenization said:


> Honestly? Unless they were spamming the shit out the forum with "Please buy" comments I would treat them like any other memeber. They might just not be ready to critque something or just be looking for some technical advice... as long as they do engage it the topics they start then... I see no problem at all with them sticking to their own threads or not critiquing others.
> 
> This idea that many forums have that you need to put out to get anything isn't very helpful to the new writer, which lets be honest here, is who most of these forums are aimed at. But that is just my thoughts on the matter, WF seems to hold another so there really isn't much point in me saying this even.



That's just my own personal method for it. Others are welcome to provide crit, or not, as they see fit.


----------



## Xenization (Feb 15, 2018)

Pete_C said:


> You have to look at it in a different way. Not everyone has the same amount of time to spend offering critiques. For example, I have a job with a huge workload, an old farmhouse to rebuild, a novel to finish and edit, other writing projects to fulfil, an other half to spend time with and a bunch of other stuff that makes up life. If I spend time critiquing I try to add value, so it's not a 10 minute thing and that means something has to give.
> 
> Yes, I will deliberately give more attention to writers that respond to my workshopping. I don't expect a comment for a comment, but if we're all helping each other then it has to be a two-way thing.
> 
> ...



That is really not the impression I got of what was being said. The way bdcharles originally put it was that to get any response at all you first needed to put out and be active on others works. This I feel is wrong because as you said, not everyone has the time or the skills to do this. 

But anyway let us drop this topic, it is off-topic for the thread and it is not going anywhere.


----------



## Pete_C (Feb 15, 2018)

Yes, let's get back to Conan and TCP!


----------



## Jack of all trades (Feb 15, 2018)

Ouch! Thanks for the explanation.


----------



## bdcharles (Feb 15, 2018)

Xenization said:


> That is really not the impression I got of what was being said. The way bdcharles originally put it was that to get any response at all you first needed to put out and be active on others works. This I feel is wrong because as you said, not everyone has the time or the skills to do this.



Weell ... I said it would be a hard sell, not that it's mandatory. But anyway, tell you what - why not post up some of your work if you have some you want looked at (or send it to me in a DM), and I'll have a read, and critique it to the best of my ability. No strings attached, no reciprocation required, and if I feel I have nothing to add, no way I could think of to improve upon it, I'll say just that.


----------



## Xenization (Feb 15, 2018)

What I personally like about the Discworld series is how it has grown up with me. When I first picked one up I was just thirteen and at that point there where one set of things that appealed yet if I read that same novel now another whole lot of layers and sub-texts will jump out at me. They are books just filled with layers of genre references, political and social opinions, cultural commentaries, original humour, movie and music references, pop culture, history, historical figures, mythology... I don't think that I could list all the topics and other things that Pratchett manages to touch upon in his work. 

I have to admit that I am a sucker for dry British humour, Monty Python, Father Ted, The Two Ronnies, A Fish Called Wanda, the movie about the zoo?, The Jeeves novels... They just appeal. 

Might by why I love Robert Asprins Phules Company so much, it seems to have a little but of all of the above in it but in space.


----------



## topcol (Feb 15, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> I hope I don't smack myself in the head for not knowing this -- what is TCP?



Hi, Jack, it was a greenish-yellowish liquid used as a cure-all by the parents of old buggers like me back in the 1950 - 60s, don't know if it's still going. You weren't supposed to ingest it and besides it stank of rank urine so who would want to. It could be used as a gargle however.


----------



## topcol (Feb 15, 2018)

Xenization said:


> What I personally like about the Discworld series is how it has grown up with me. When I first picked one up I was just thirteen and at that point there where one set of things that appealed yet if I read that same novel now another whole lot of layers and sub-texts will jump out at me. They are books just filled with layers of genre references, political and social opinions, cultural commentaries, original humour, movie and music references, pop culture, history, historical figures, mythology... I don't think that I could list all the topics and other things that Pratchett manages to touch upon in his work.
> 
> I have to admit that I am a sucker for dry British humour, Monty Python, Father Ted, The Two Ronnies, A Fish Called Wanda, the movie about the zoo?, The Jeeves novels... They just appeal.
> 
> Might by why I love Robert Asprins Phules Company so much, it seems to have a little but of all of the above in it but in space.



Hi Xenisation. Have you seen the Jeeves and Wooster TV series with Stephen Fry & Hugh Laurie? Each episode is redolent of the 1920s- 30s. Dad's Army is also pretty funny in a realistic way as you can imagine the make-up of the Home Guard as being just like the TV series portrays them.

The thing that fascinates me about Discworld is the way in which Pratchett succeeds in weaving together all those mythical beings, vampires, golems, werewolves, wizards, witches, dwarves, not to mention differently invented items such as the clacks, steam trains, post office etc etc.

The whole structure of Discworld society should have crumbled as soon as it was formed but it works.

topcol


----------



## Roac (Feb 15, 2018)

Xenization said:


> Might by why I love Robert Asprins Phules Company so much, it seems to have a little but of all of the above in it but in space.




ooohhh...I forgot about these books. It has been so long since I read them.


----------



## Xenization (Feb 16, 2018)

topcol said:


> Hi Xenisation. Have you seen the Jeeves and Wooster TV series with Stephen Fry & Hugh Laurie? Each episode is redolent of the 1920s- 30s. Dad's Army is also pretty funny in a realistic way as you can imagine the make-up of the Home Guard as being just like the TV series portrays them.
> 
> The thing that fascinates me about Discworld is the way in which Pratchett succeeds in weaving together all those mythical beings, vampires, golems, werewolves, wizards, witches, dwarves, not to mention differently invented items such as the clacks, steam trains, post office etc etc.
> 
> ...



I know of the show but can't say I have seen any of it... I am not sure why as I like Hugh Laurie. 

I will have to look up Dad's Army, I saw the movie remake thing a little while ago with... The Rock Star person from Love Actually? I never remember his name. :/

Yes! That is also a point of fascination with me, that and how real the world feels once you are really into a book. It feels like it ought to work, or at least that it is the natural way for things to work. :?


----------



## Xenization (Feb 16, 2018)

Roac said:


> ooohhh...I forgot about these books. It has been so long since I read them.



I just loved them... read the whole series in like a month and a bit. I just could not get enough of them. I then was stuck for something to read after that so I picked up Doorways in the Sand by Zelazny. Just loved it.


----------

