# Your ideas/thoughts about the wave of attacks in the West and how to combat them



## Oblivious Plunge (May 24, 2017)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/manchester-terror-attack-everything-know-far/

This is the second terrorist attack on british soil in the span of 2 months.

I'd like to know if any of you have any opinions on this, and what we can do to combat and prevent these attacks from happening.


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## PiP (May 24, 2017)

We carry on life as normal.



> what we can do to combat and prevent these attacks from happening.



Apart from being vigilant (not vigilantes) nothing. A news blackout might be a good idea.


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## bdcharles (May 24, 2017)

Maajid Nawaz sums it up pretty well, to my mind:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/05/23/the-manchester-attack-and-the-myth-of-the-lone-wolf


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## Phil Istine (May 24, 2017)

It could be stopped by deporting every muslim in the country, though I don't know where to as many of them are UK born.  I'm not advocating that, of course.  I'm not prepared to make millions suffer for the actions of a very few.  Muslims live in the flats above and below me.  I feel no less safe today than I did last week.
There's little defence against an under-the-radar loner who acquires the ingredients for a bomb piecemeal, over time.


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## Sebald (May 24, 2017)

There are seven billion peace-loving people on earth. We can't let a handful of killers turn us against each other.


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## sas (May 25, 2017)

Well, using the "logic" of others, we should imprison every white male under the age of 30 here in The States until we're positive they've matured. They use AR-15s to mow down 20 first graders; theater goers; kids in schoolyards, and so on. Get rid of young testosterone.


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## Oblivious Plunge (May 25, 2017)

How do you get rid of testosterone? I know one solution, that'd include mass genocide though. The problem is fundementalism, not testosterone. There's an estimation that suggests there are 10% radical islamists among 1,6 billion muslims. That's 160 million potential terrorists. It is not irrational to fear that figure. And let's not forget the bunch that cheers them on.

@Phil Istine

The guy openly supported ISIS at his local mosque, according to the imam there. And he was aggressively chanting verses from the Quran on the streets days before the attack. Lots of people
had concerns, no one contacted authorities.


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## Kevin (May 25, 2017)

Go towards them, not run away bleating. I know that's impossible for most and most would have no clue what to do if they were to actually have an opportunity. It'll never happen ( statistically , for 9999.99% of us) but at least some of us have proved it possible when that group rushed the cockpit over Pennsylvania rather than cower. How to make this sort of thing not happen in the first place? No idea... Same as I have no idea how to de-puusifie the guy who goes and shoots everyone because 'she doesn't love me anymore.' Boo-fing hoo.


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## Deleted member 56686 (May 25, 2017)

First of all, you're never going to eliminate violence or terrorism as long as hatred exists. Yeah, mass genocide could work but we'd have to kill all humans because everyone seems to hate somebody and many of us wish violence upon them. It's easy to blame everything on fundamentalism, Muslim, Christian, or otherwise.

But we have gang violence in the US for a reason. These young men mostly grow up in less than optimum conditions. They get poor schooling, many have lack of supervision, and society discards them before they are even five years old. A life of poverty and being ignored can make you pretty angry.

Add those conditions plus the feudal societies Middle Eastern youth have to put up with and you have a tempest of opportunists that can convince an impressionable young man that all he has to do is blow up a building by sacrificing himself and he'll be greeted by 72 virgins or whatever and you have a ticking time bomb.

So short of all out nuclear war, we're sadly going to have to live with the occasional terrorist act. We have to live our lives the way we always have and if our number happens to come up when the next attack happens, well, so be it.

And we have to ask ourselves would we rather be safe or free. For me I'll take freedom because without that, what's the point of living anyway?


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## midnightpoet (May 25, 2017)

Yes, and I'll admit western countries have invaded the middle east and Isis is mad about that - but how far back you want to go?  The Persians, the Hittites, the Greeks, the Romans, the Ottomans? The history of humankind has partly been about invasions and wars.  Are we making progress - yes, I think so.  However, until attitudes change for the positive the world over, I fear things will be like this for a very long time.  Mutual co-operation and respect in the pursuit of peace is needed, but even pulling all foreign forces out of the middle east comes with its own set of problems.  Like Chamberlain facing an aggressive Germany, sometimes the pursuit of peace is not enough.


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## sas (May 25, 2017)

My daughter and family on their trip to UK in July will also be visiting Ireland. Hmmm. I think they should lock up all the Catholics and Prostestants while they are there. Not long ago those groups were blowing everyone up. Maybe we should just encourage atheism. It's got my vote.


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## aj47 (May 25, 2017)

Oblivious Plunge said:


> How do you get rid of testosterone? I know one solution, that'd include mass genocide though. The problem is fundementalism, not testosterone. There's an estimation that suggests there are 10% radical islamists among 1,6 billion muslims. That's 160 million potential terrorists.



The problem is not *the* problem, it's a collection of problems and trying to say it's one unifying problem .... well, that works better for some things than others.  I'm not saying every case is a *special case* (technical term so I bolded it) but solving the *general case* will not solve every case.  



> It is not irrational to fear that figure. And let's not forget the bunch that cheers them on.


Yes, yes it is.  Because estimations are, at their root, guesses.  I had jury duty recently and one of the things they went over was the idea that if a substance tested positive for containing meth, it was considered meth....it could have other ingredients, but the whole amount was what the charge was.  So 10 units of meth could really be 9 units of meth and one of filler.  Or 1 unit of meth and 9 of filler. Your 10% is too close to a unit of power in our number system to be legitimate.  We have a base 10 number system and 10% is just move the decimal place--it's an easy number to play with and so it comes out of people's orifices more frequently than is reflected by the actual status of the universe.  That's why you hear many, many references to a *scale of 1 to 10*, or *<some number> out of 10* as a gauge. The word *decimate* means to destroy one tenth of something and is used as general term to mean *hurt badly*. Even the *tithe* in the Bible is a tenth.  

Being afraid of snakes because some are venomous is a phobia.


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## Theglasshouse (May 25, 2017)

Mr Mustard made a really good observation. I think religion combined with poverty can be considered like a vice in the context that in one necessarily that helps the life of the individuals and make them worse off in those particular places. Oppression of rights is another thing. It happens in all these countries with religion in its most extreme of interpretations.

I've said this before somewhat. But to prevent a future trump from reaching any presidency (hopefully, I am not offending). All voters should pass a test that indicates that they know competently the issues. As someone who thinks it is as important as drivers ed, citizenship tests for people who become citizens, and other tests. 

Also, people from other cultures should know the cultures of the country, since religion is sort of an idea that spreads like culture. 

In international relations, they say respecting culture is important. It helps understand deeply fundamental beliefs according to research.

In a perfect world, we'd all have the same experience. Voting should be a privilege and not a right. Culture, crime, and the law should be taught as it protects national security. Privileges can be taken away, voting cannot be right now unless under special laws such as crime in the united states.

For oppressive governments that are dangerous, I say we should all create these sort of systems of checks and balances. Go back to the roots of Aristotle, and Plato. Justice must be a widely percieved phenomenon that should be seen in public polling. Voting shouldn't be compulsory.It seems we need smarter voters.

So I wish there were good immediate answers. But I know it is a peace process. To do it, problematic countries should not be submerged in violence. Terrorism sadly happens anywhere. Anyone that has the willpower to do it.

They out to give people other elite politicians more possibilities to beat the odds too. To get into office such as scientists.

But they should also run laws, that ban smear campaign of politicians. They should because how they studied tv.

As for war, it is difficult since most of the countries in the middle east that are troublesome are monarchies. Which means there are little rights such as what caused the French revolution, to change the world, and create democracy for others. The reason it started.

I suggest there need be no drastic solutions.

War never changes but imagine if it did something good. But war never does good. I don't know one good war since war involves killing innocent people who have nothing to do with it. I suggest they give a voice to the most educated in the middle east that can reform the country. The horrible thing is petroleum.If they could allow a breakthrough it could change the world and the middle east would cease to be a problem. Rather than cure disease, this should be a top priority.

Infrastructure for electric cars should also be cheaper. They are becoming a reality. Just that too much of the world is centered on petroleum and its benefits. That supposedly the next best thing for green energy (as in no smoke or exhaust).


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## LeeC (May 25, 2017)

A number of replies got to the essence of the problem in human terms, and I see parallels with even the "Christians" that perpetrated the genocide that "made America great," extending even today in routing our polluting oil pipelines through Native American water sources. 

But have you thought about our being only a variation on a theme of physical life in the life fueled by life natural model. We have the potential to live in respectful coexistence with all life forms, which would be to our benefit being our existence is dependent on all the life forms we evolved with. Rather, like some invasive plant, we are chocking ourselves out because we've gotten too big for our pants. Another aspect of the natural order to insure the continuance of physical life overall. 

From a naturalist's viewpoint, a simple example is Mormon cricket swarming phase. It's driven in good part by Mormon crickets in the inner circle attacking those on the outer circle from behind to eat them. An apt analogy therein if we allow ourselves to recognize it.


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## Terry D (May 25, 2017)

Stopping terrorism is as simple as stopping hopelessness, fear, poverty, and corruption. Terrorism has nothing to do with religion -- religion is just one of the masks terrorists hide behind -- it has everything to do with the human animal's innate ability to objectify members of its own species. Our brain is our worst enemy. Having the power to think abstractly allows us to hate, to covet, to resent, and to rationalize actions detrimental to the species as a whole: war, pollution, overpopulation, murder. Humans, in large numbers, are cannibalistic, parasitic, psychopaths. There will always be a large number of people willing to -- hell, anxious to -- slaughter other people for the cause _du jour_. 

Do you want to take away the terrorist's power? Ignore them. Stop giving them the attention they crave. Every time you hit 'Share' or 'Like' on a story about one of these terrible acts you give the terrorists what they want. Every new law instituted to 'protect' the innocent is a win for the terrorists, every wall built, every ban issued. Society can't fix this; society is the problem.


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## Oblivious Plunge (May 25, 2017)

Ofcourse religion is part of the problem. People need to realize that religions are not SACRED. Is it really inconceiveable that followers of a religion founded by a warmongering illiterate MIGHT turn to violence to get their message across? Do you really believe that the 12 people who were murdered at Charlie Hebdo would've been dead today IF the Qu'ran encouraged people to draw the prophet to the best of their abilities? They are dead because making an
engraven image of the prophet is an insult, and should be dealt with by death to restore his honor. What about the danish guy who drew the Prophet and religious leaders unleashed a fatwa on him? He was murdered on the streets.


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## Theglasshouse (May 25, 2017)

Just as Christianity can inspire great values, and teach them. There will always be a problem with the practicing of some freedom of some religion IMO, such as Islam is a form of government based on a monarchy that has been that way for years. I won't want to say religion is the problem rather the people who manipulate it and use it as tools such as Isis and government people. I am hesitant because religion is not the culprit, the government takes control of things with or without separation of church and state. The government in those countries are, people it is a blind spot. It is a way to abuse freedom. Too much of this sort of freedom is a bad thing, in this extreme case. Having grown in a Catholic household it told us what was right and wrong. Imagine Islam. Psychologists study religion to determine right and wrong and culture a person's history and background and their beliefs as it informs on human behavior. We can't call Islam the black sheep because it really is a case of a few individuals who hold so much power, and the government which wants to not change and keeps the status quo of no real freedom (monarchy such as French revolution which overthrew monarchs to gain rights such a women's rights to vote later on or paved the way) . I argue since they studied Aristotle and Plato's ideas, to make democracy a reality as well. There were some famous philosophers in the age of enlightenment that did. I think Islam is a tool is that it is used as a way to vent on cultural "ideas" to promote bad views of other countries. But like I said, there's not enough freedom there even if Iraq or Iran were fully developed countries. The government will always be more influential than religion. The most powerful entities that organize society and pave way for the future. They shape people's futures and determine their fates. Why is there inequality in income for example? The government is to blame. Why is it that some people don't have fair representation in government? We can't say it's Islam since Muslims believe in Islam. The solution isn't going to be solved by changing Islam overnight. Or even for years. It must not be a war of eradicating religion. Regardless I think changing someone's religion won't help and makes them skeptical to believe you or others that try if you will.


I don't think it's a war of Jihad (Islam interpreted for violent purposes of supposedly wanting justice on enemies of Islam). But hopefully I am way wrong and it is not a state sponsored mission to disrupt peace in other parts of the world.

Both of my brothers studied international relations so I know a few things. One also studied political administration.


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## Sam (May 25, 2017)

The problem is that humans have a tendency to over-react in the short term, and under-react in the long, and what happens as a consequence is that we scream out for action to be taken when the dust has not even settled. That isn't to diminish or disrespect the lives lost or irreparably changed by a heinous act, but what it does mean is that the response needs to be made not from a place of fear or anger, but of control and prudence. 

Lives have been lost without any rational reason, but acting in haste and not drawing up the proper, co-ordinated military response designed with the most optimum chance of success, will cost the lives of many more. 

That happened in '01 and '06, and that's something else humans tend to do: not learn from history.


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## Terry D (May 25, 2017)

Oblivious Plunge said:


> Ofcourse religion is part of the problem. People need to realize that religions are not SACRED. Is it really inconceiveable that followers of a religion founded by a warmongering illiterate MIGHT turn to violence to get their message across? Do you really believe that the 12 people who were murdered at Charlie Hebdo would've been dead today IF the Qu'ran encouraged people to draw the prophet to the best of their abilities? They are dead because making an
> engraven image of the prophet is an insult, and should be dealt with by death to restore his honor. What about the danish guy who drew the Prophet and religious leaders unleashed a fatwa on him? He was murdered on the streets.



I'm not going to get into that argument, although that's exactly where you want this to go.


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## Glatteis (May 26, 2017)

Oblivious Plunge said:


> Ofcourse religion is part of the problem. People need to realize that religions are not SACRED. Is it really inconceiveable that followers of a religion founded by a warmongering illiterate MIGHT turn to violence to get their message across? Do you really believe that the 12 people who were murdered at Charlie Hebdo would've been dead today IF the Qu'ran encouraged people to draw the prophet to the best of their abilities? They are dead because making an
> engraven image of the prophet is an insult, and should be dealt with by death to restore his honor. What about the danish guy who drew the Prophet and religious leaders unleashed a fatwa on him? He was murdered on the streets.



To westerners, to Christians, to Protestants, etc., sure religion isn't quite sacred anymore. To Muslims, to Copts, to Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, etc., to Asiatics in particular, for many of them religion is indeed still *very sacred*. They live & breathe it. As a friend once said if there was ever a wide-scale religious war on par with, or even beating, the Crusades Westerners/Christians would very likely find themselves on the losing end. Because why fight tooth & nail, to the last breath in your body, for something you don't really believe in?


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## Penless (May 27, 2017)

Oh, that's easy: 

We close our borders to Muslims.
We deport all the ones already in the country. 
Round up all the Muslim children and...

Quiz them!
Here are some sample questions:

'You see a queue, you A. Join it. B. Avoid it'
'A stranger steps on your foot, you: A. Apologise. B. Attack him' 
'Your go-to conversation starter is: A. 'Sure has been awful weather lately, hasn't it? B. 'Want to bomb somewhere?'

Those who answer more B than A are Muslim of spirit and are also deported.
The rest can be given to a nice middle-class British family and re-educated with lots of tea. 


...On a more serious note, I think that in the long term it's down to better education, more community involvement, and more opportunities for young people to better their lives. 

Give these kids something to live for, a sport, an instrument, it doesn't matter what; just give them a damn hobby and a community they can belong to that isn't peddling drugs to kids or promoting antisocial behavior. 
They join these radical groups for acceptance; they give them a sense of purpose, and that makes them feel valued. Give them that sense of value somewhere else.

I think governments need to start looking at the long term - beyond the next election - to where we really want to be as a society and as a _species_ in 10, 50 and 100 years time, and what we're going to do to get there. 

There. Said my piece. Can't do anything about it though, so it's back to fantasy land!


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## Kevin (May 27, 2017)

It is a sad fact that suicide bombers are only a part of certain cultures. How popular that practice is when compared to our culture is the problem. If only we'd accept others' cultural practices we'd all get along. Like they do.


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## Winston (May 28, 2017)

I've got my Bachelor of Science (B.S.:razz degree in Criminal Justice.  Plus, years working in the field.  
There's all kind of social-science pointed-headed idiots citing economic and social status, race and other irrelevant causes of crime.  There are only two factors that have been consistently proven to correlate with violent crime:  Age and gender.
Yes.  To solve most crime, simply lock-up every male between 15 and 30 years of age.  I guarantee crime will drop by 90%.


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## Oblivious Plunge (May 28, 2017)

Winston said:


> I've got my Bachelor of Science (B.S.:razz degree in Criminal Justice.  Plus, years working in the field.
> There's all kind of social-science pointed-headed idiots citing economic and social status, race and other irrelevant causes of crime.  There are only two factors that have been consistently proven to correlate with violent crime:  Age and gender.
> Yes.  To solve most crime, simply lock-up every male between 15 and 30 years of age.  I guarantee crime will drop by 90%.



I cannot dispute that. It's true. But do you honestly consider it a reasonable solution? You're just ridiculing the question with a mock answer. This is not a joke. People's lives are stake. I'm not pretending that there hasn't been christian fundementalism aswell, there certainly has. But it's not even on the same field as islamic fundementalism today. Who do we categorize as Christian fundementalists today? Christians against gay marriage and abortion. Who do we categorize as islamic fundementalists today? People who are willing to kill a massive amount of people in the name of their religion. We hold the two to different standards, and it's pathetic. Muslims openly against gay marriage and abortion, yet not violent are categorized as "moderates" at best. This is a disgrace. Why do we not expect the same standards from Muslims, as we do Christians? (I do not take kindly to Christian bias, either. FYI.) Hateful ideas like these are not restricted to the uneducated, the impoverished or minorities. Regardless of class, those ideas are mutual and united under the banner of the religion. Goodness and kindness in the muslim population is not granted because of their holy books (on the contrary, actually) It's due to human dignity, which we all share. That is why you'll find a toddler automatically comforting another human being who looks distressed. It's inherent.

We all acknowledge that slavery is wrong, so we stopped.

We all acknowledge that racism is wrong, so we opened our minds.

We all know that burning 'witches' at the stake is wrong, so we stopped.

What do those three things have in common? It belongs to the past and would be frowned upon in modern times. (In civilized societies, anyway.)

Then why are we so shocked when those things happen in the name of iron age ideologies? It belongs to the past, among ignorant people. I do not find it shocking, it's expected.

Religions are constructed in a way to appeal to it's followers. It's why you see God favour the jews in judaism, muslims in the quran etc. It's not designed to be all-inclusive, independent of your creed. It favours it's subscribers.


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## Winston (May 29, 2017)

Oblivious Plunge said:


> I cannot dispute that. It's true. But do you honestly consider it a reasonable solution? You're just ridiculing the question with a mock answer. This is not a joke. People's lives are stake. I'm not pretending that there hasn't been christian fundementalism aswell, there certainly has. But it's not even on the same field as islamic fundementalism today. Who do we categorize as Christian fundementalists today? Christians against gay marriage and abortion. Who do we categorize as islamic fundementalists today? People who are willing to kill a massive amount of people in the name of their religion. We hold the two to different standards, and it's pathetic. Muslims openly against gay marriage and abortion, yet not violent are categorized as "moderates" at best. This is a disgrace. Why do we not expect the same standards from Muslims, as we do Christians? (I do not take kindly to Christian bias, either. FYI.) Hateful ideas like these are not restricted to the uneducated, the impoverished or minorities. Regardless of class, those ideas are mutual and united under the banner of the religion. Goodness and kindness in the muslim population is not granted because of their holy books (on the contrary, actually) It's due to human dignity, which we all share. That is why you'll find a toddler automatically comforting another human being who looks distressed. It's inherent.
> 
> We all acknowledge that slavery is wrong, so we stopped.
> 
> ...



You completely missed my point.  
Powerful, influential old people get young folks to kill and die for THEIR causes.  They sell killing to the young.  I "served" with child soldiers in Honduras.  They start them young, and feed them hate.
MS-13 today?  Same game.  
I suppose it would be easier to lock-up the puppet-masters, but as adults, we know that will never happen.
Sorry you were offended by my "flippant" post.  When you've been neck deep in poop, sometimes all you can do is laugh at the stench.  

BTW:  We stopped slavery and racism with rifles, at Gettysburg and Selma.  God favors those willing to fight for Freedom.  Not the cowards that hide behind the bodies of children.


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## Oblivious Plunge (May 29, 2017)

You project a different issue onto an issue that is actually relevant where we live. I am sure Honduras has got it's problems, along with El Salvador etc. But we've got one too. And I'm yet to hear about a MS-13 member blowing themselves to smitherines in the UK, or anywhere else in the West. And if it were to happen, and there's a consistent pattern there - we'll have that conversation, OK? There's a pattern in these suicide bombings and these waves of vehicle-ramming attacks, they all subscribe to the same religious doctrine. And I'll tell you something else, I don't believe locking up the 'puppet' masters and the influental imams is gonna prevent these attacks from happening. The imams are reading from the Qu'ran. The message does not come from the imam to begin with, it's in the book. If the perfect role model is a warmongering intolerant illiterate, what more to expect from the sheep willing to follow? And you could do without the last statement, I am not impressed. The word God or the emphasis of God means zero to nothing to me. We could argue about that fallacy aswell, but that's for a different topic.


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## JustRob (May 29, 2017)

The TV show _The Last Leg _here in the UK tackled the subject in their typical no-nonsense manner. I think one item that hit the mark with me was that in response to the UK threat level being raised to 'CRITICAL' one viewer tweeted "I don't panic until it reaches 'REPLACEMENT BUS SERVICE'." The point there is that it is difficult and maybe even inappropriate to have a personal view on such a matter if one is not personally affected by it or involved in its resolution. We have to trust that there are others better informed than ourselves who are working towards that resolution and get on with our lives. 

By the way, and it is only by the way, anyone who puts faith in their god above their faith in humanity has missed the point of religion, I suspect.

My angel and I are going to a matinee of a West End show in London by train on Thursday. A threat level of 'REPLACEMENT BUS SERVICE' would seriously affect our plans whereas 'CRITICAL' wouldn't. Actual threats are in a different class from conceptual ones. What more can I write?


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## Theglasshouse (May 29, 2017)

If people were educated more for the right things, there would be no war. 

Napoleon was a famous historical figure for the opposite. He built nationalism and a spirit that was a favorable war from an unfearful France.  Which he did so by convincing children according to my history teacher in schools. I feel what has been said concerning the puppet masters is correct. There are some points I want to reply to but going to leave it this way.


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## Kevin (May 29, 2017)

Educated more for the right things...


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## Winston (May 29, 2017)

Oblivious Plunge said:


> You project a different issue onto an issue that is actually relevant where we live. I am sure Honduras has got it's problems, along with El Salvador etc. But we've got one too. And I'm yet to hear about a MS-13 member blowing themselves to smitherines in the UK, or anywhere else in the West. And if it were to happen, and there's a consistent pattern there - we'll have that conversation, OK? There's a pattern in these suicide bombings and these waves of vehicle-ramming attacks, they all subscribe to the same religious doctrine. And I'll tell you something else, I don't believe locking up the 'puppet' masters and the influental imams is gonna prevent these attacks from happening. The imams are reading from the Qu'ran. The message does not come from the imam to begin with, it's in the book. If the perfect role model is a warmongering intolerant illiterate, what more to expect from the sheep willing to follow? And you could do without the last statement, I am not impressed. The word God or the emphasis of God means zero to nothing to me. We could argue about that fallacy aswell, but that's for a different topic.



I find my self having to apologize again.
First, you derided me for not taking the problem seriously, and not offering a solution. Then, you take issue with the solution I offer.
I don't know what you've seen in your life, but I've never seen a young man simply wake up one day and decide to kill dozens.  Someone pushes them.  
The point of gang members and child soldiers is fully relevant. How young men are recruited into a lifestyle of violence and murder IS the issue.  Stopping them IS the point.
And I regret that mentioning God set you off.  There is a lot of hate out there against all religion now, thanks to the actions of a very small number.  But religion is a real factor in this.  Letting the mere mention of it anger you serves no one.


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## Deleted member 56686 (May 29, 2017)

For the record and just in case anyone had any ideas, this thread is not to turn into a soapbox for anti-Muslim or Anti-religious sentiment nor should it be a soapbox for anti-Athiest sentiments. This forum is open to all people irregardless of race, religion, creed, gender, sexual orientation, or whether you wear boxers or briefs.


So please keep it on the topic which I believe was what can be done to stop future terrorist acts. Thank you.


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## Firemajic (May 29, 2017)

Terry D said:


> Stopping terrorism is as simple as stopping hopelessness, fear, poverty, and corruption. Terrorism has nothing to do with religion -- religion is just one of the masks terrorists hide behind -- it has everything to do with the human animal's innate ability to objectify members of its own species. Our brain is our worst enemy. Having the power to think abstractly allows us to hate, to covet, to resent, and to rationalize actions detrimental to the species as a whole: war, pollution, overpopulation, murder. Humans, in large numbers, are cannibalistic, parasitic, psychopaths. There will always be a large number of people willing to -- hell, anxious to -- slaughter other people for the cause _du jour_.
> 
> Do you want to take away the terrorist's power? Ignore them. Stop giving them the attention they crave. Every time you hit 'Share' or 'Like' on a story about one of these terrible acts you give the terrorists what they want. Every new law instituted to 'protect' the innocent is a win for the terrorists, every wall built, every ban issued. Society can't fix this; society is the problem.





:applouse::applouse::applouse::applouse::applouse::applouse:..............................:fatigue:Finally... someone is articulate enough to sayIT....


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## Oblivious Plunge (May 29, 2017)




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## ppsage (May 31, 2017)

As a result of some items in this thread, I've spent a couple hours today perusing online documents (purportedly) issued by various infamous middle-eastern insurgency groups believed (with good reason, I'd say) to be perpetrators of terrorist actions. I have made an effort to read originals only and not summarized versions issued by those opposing them. This exercise, which I'd never before thought to do, proved easy of accomplishment, and I feel some of the documents I read offered the genuine rational for these incomprehensibly cruel acts. I recommend this course, I have found it useful.


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## JustRob (Jun 1, 2017)

I have nothing here to say about terrorism but it seems relevant to mention the problem that some personal Muslim friends of ours here currently have. They are having trouble observing Ramadan, which involves not eating or drinking from sunrise to sunset. If taken literally this becomes harder in higher latitudes, even here in the UK. I found an article from 2013 about this in, of all places, the Economist magazine HERE. It even mentions the problem for a Muslim astronaut who was whizzing around the earth in orbit during Ramadan with daylight rapidly flashing on and off. The poignant quotation below appears at the very end of that article though.



> “There is no monolithic standard,” says Imam Abdullah Hasan of the Neeli mosque in Greater Manchester, Britain. “The beauty of Islam is its flexibility.”



That is the sentiment that those Muslim friends of ours hold to while doing their best to fit into British society here in Kent. Whatever the solution to this terrorism, Islam is not the problem. “The beauty of Islam is its flexibility." That has always been the message from the real Muslims of Manchester apparently.


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## Oblivious Plunge (Jun 1, 2017)

I am not trying to insuate that all muslims are bad, bla bla. (In a discussion, why does this always need to be pointed out?) But let's get one thing straight, it's not because of Islam these brits are fitting in, it's their willingness to embrace Western values
despite religious doctrine. Can you name one country where the state religion is Islam that's thriving like a western country such as the UK, Belgium or Denmark? There is literally one country in the Middle East that resembles our countries, with our values - and it happends to be the ONE country in the entire world that's an established jewish state. What a coincidence that is. Look at Egypt, Iran and Afghanistan back in the 60's and 70. It was beautiful until a deeply religious state was established and forced upon the people. And what about Lebanon? It was a Christian country until the muslims became the majority and massacred it's Christian population because of infidelity. The only country that came to aid to save and protect the Lebanese people were Israel. Why can't it possibly be that a bronze age ideology, founded by a warlord, might just be a recipe for disaster and violence?


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## Terry D (Jun 2, 2017)

Oblivious Plunge said:


> I am not trying to insuate that all muslims are bad, bla bla. (In a discussion, why does this always need to be pointed out?) But let's get one thing straight, it's not because of Islam these brits are fitting in, it's their willingness to embrace Western values
> despite religious doctrine. Can you name one country where the state religion is Islam that's thriving like a western country such as the UK, Belgium or Denmark? There is literally one country in the Middle East that resembles our countries, with our values - and it happends to be the ONE country in the entire world that's an established jewish state. What a coincidence that is. Look at Egypt, Iran and Afghanistan back in the 60's and 70. It was beautiful until a deeply religious state was established and forced upon the people. And what about Lebanon? It was a Christian country until the muslims became the majority and massacred it's Christian population because of infidelity. The only country that came to aid to save and protect the Lebanese people were Israel. Why can't it possibly be that a bronze age ideology, founded by a warlord, might just be a recipe for disaster and violence?



So, they are acceptable if they agree with your values? They are not 'bad', just wrong, is that what you are saying? Of course successful nations with different cultures are not going to look like the UK, Belgium, or Denmark. They look like Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, and Malaysia. They may not look like you think they should, but, by every objective measurement, they are as successful as any western nation. 

Part of the reason for the hate which drives terrorism is a resentment toward the condescending attitude westerners have for Middle Eastern, Asiatic, and African cultures and beliefs.


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## Kevin (Jun 2, 2017)

They blow themselves up. By far most of their activity is against their own people.
Westerners are condescending? Yes. So? Everyone is condescending; all cultures.

Lebanon was not a Christian country ( in the modern era). Muslims were a large, yet an un-represented in government minority. There was an influx of Muslims when they fled  during the formation of Isreal. Hamas ( which is not 'Palestian', but native Lebanese) only formed  later as a native organization and was a reaction to Isreal and suppression by "Christian" factions in their own country. The changes happened in the seventies and eighties, and involved high level assassinations and a civil war. The Israeli's were welcomed when they first came. Then, they wouldn't leave. There was Shatilla and Sabra. One time an Israeli tank drove over a line of occupied civilian vehicles. 

An interesting aside is that issil doesn't go to Lebanon. The reason is they are not 'nice' there.


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## JustRob (Jun 2, 2017)

Oblivious Plunge said:


> it's not because of Islam these brits are fitting in, it's their willingness to embrace Western values
> despite religious doctrine. Can you name one country where the state religion is Islam that's thriving like a western country such as the UK, Belgium or Denmark?



IF you are questioning the wisdom of having _any_ state religion then I agree that that deserves being questioned. The UK and Belgium don't and Denmark's is apparently only notional as Danes seem not to be strongly religious. In fact as Islam is the second most prevalent religion there after Christianity, according to statistics, one might surmise that it could be a relatively significant _active_ religion there. 

I personally admire the Quakers who defied the existence of a state religion in Britain when one existed. Their defiance demonstrated their faith in a way that followers of the official church could not. Surely religion is at heart a demonstration of one's faith, but a rigorous state religion nullifies that definition. I have faith but can choose to have no religion to demonstrate it because those Quakers took a stand.

If you defined the word "thriving" perhaps we could answer your question, but Saudi Arabia seems to be doing pretty well, far better than those western countries in fact, so not actually _like_ them, to be pedantic.

Our Muslim friends are Indian, again from a country which by legislation does not have a state religion. There Islam is the second most common religion after Hinduism, which is particularly adaptable and may well explain how that country thrives. Our friends do not conform to British life "despite religious doctrine" because, as that Imam said, the doctrine is already flexible enough in itself. It is the hard liners who make it appear less flexible. One only has to read what the Prophet said about the true meaning of "jihad" to see that. As we continually demonstrate in WF, words can be bent to many purposes. Any of us can use them as weapons if we choose, but only elsewhere of course. Here we understand just how powerful they can be and keep them in check.


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## Oblivious Plunge (Jun 5, 2017)

@JustRob

Saudi Arabia is doing very well, financially. And it's a very great country to live in, especially if you're a male with royal blood. Go ask the homosexual about to be beheaded in the market place for the public to see. Go ask the pre-pubescent teenage girl about to receive 30+ lashes for not 'screaming loudly enough when raped.' Or perhaps you can go for a stroll to check on the body of the gay man who's been hanging from the gallows for the past 3 days, to send a message to everybody who participates in this "abomination and perversion." Or what we like to call it; homosexuality.

  How can you even insinuate with a good conscience that this is an ideal place to live? Those muslims do not conform to the british way of life because the Qu'ran is so flexible. Do you really believe that? Perhaps they don't take it that serious to begin with, is that so hard to phantom? It isn't. That's why the terrorists are a minority in the muslim population, because they are the one's who are gullible enough to take the book that seriously to begin with. It is a well established fact that the Qu'ran is very unapologetic and merciless in it's encouragement and endorsement of violence. Why so shocked when religious people use it as a justification? Poverty is not the reason for religious inspired terrorism. Osama Bin Laden, the mastermind behind 9/11, had a networth of $50,000,000. Just comes to prove that religious radicalism is indiscriminate when it comes to wealth & race.


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