# Must every scene advance the plot?



## j.w.olson (Feb 17, 2017)

So a book I'm reading, _How to Tell a Story_ by Rubie and Provost, which has its various strengths and weaknesses, says, "Don't fool yourself into thinking that if nothing plotwise happens in a scene, but it nevertheless shows character development, that's enough. It isn't. Scenes need to show both character development and plot development to be effective."
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Thoughts? Especially in fantasy/sci-fi where I do a lot of world building? Obviously no rule in writing really applies 100% of the time, but do you generally agree with this? I have my own thoughts, but would appreciate hearing from others. (I also know how a lot of people feel about books about writing.)[/FONT]


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## Sam (Feb 17, 2017)

So what happens in character-driven stories, then, according to the book? 

I tend to put low faith in people/books who tell me that something _definitely _has to be done in writing. It's a huge red flag, for me at least.


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## moderan (Feb 17, 2017)

I think yes. Character development _is_ plot, often enough, at least for me. I do a heap of worldbuilding as well, but that mostly informs the text rather than takes center stage. Mostly, I say. Sometimes the world is the thing, as in my tales about an intelligent and malevolent planet.


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## Non Serviam (Feb 17, 2017)

My rule of thumb is that every scene should do two or three of the following:-  (a) advance the plot; (b) build tension; (c) show character; (d) elaborate on one of the novel's themes; (e) establish a plot voucher or Chekhov's gun; or (f) provide counterpoint (e.g. a laugh-out-loud passage in a horror novel; a dark, serious scene in a comedy; a tranquil moment in a war story; you get the idea).


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## j.w.olson (Feb 17, 2017)

Sam said:


> So what happens in character-driven stories, then, according to the book?



Well, that's fine, right? Character SHOULD drive the plot. You should have character building happening as the plot is advanced. That makes sense to me.

And I know -- no rule in writing seems to be definitive. But I have found that reading (and debating) aspects of these books drives me to contemplate and grow my own writing style more, whether I follow the rules I read or not. I think of these as tools and shapes, rather than limits and rules.


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## j.w.olson (Feb 17, 2017)

Non Serviam said:


> My rule of thumb is that every scene should do two or three of the following:-  (a) advance the plot; (b) build tension; (c) show character; (d) elaborate on one of the novel's themes; (e) establish a plot voucher or Chekhov's gun; or (f) provide counterpoint (e.g. a laugh-out-loud passage in a horror novel; a dark, serious scene in a comedy; a tranquil moment in a war story; you get the idea).



I like this. Probably with world-building included, for the sorts of stories I write.


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## RhythmOvPain (Feb 17, 2017)

If a scene doesn't advance the plot, it should have other redeeming qualities such as humor IMO.

Filler is not always a bad thing, especially if your word count is too low.

As long as it's not too mundane or taking away from anything. It's your story, have fun with it.


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## RhythmOvPain (Feb 17, 2017)

Non Serviam said:


> My rule of thumb is that every scene should do two or three of the following:-  (a) advance the plot; (b) build tension; (c) show character; (d) elaborate on one of the novel's themes; (e) establish a plot voucher or Chekhov's gun; or (f) provide counterpoint (e.g. a laugh-out-loud passage in a horror novel; a dark, serious scene in a comedy; a tranquil moment in a war story; you get the idea).



Sorry for the DP, but I've never heard the reference to Chekhov's Gun before, so thanks for teaching me something new.


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## walker (Feb 17, 2017)

It's probably good advice, but I would take it with a grain of salt.

Imagine a guide to writing a hit song. I imagine such a guide might say, "You have to keep it to 3 or 4 minutes, instrument it in such and such a way, two verses, a bridge, a third verse, etc. etc. etc."

Probably good advice, but we all know people who have broken the rules, right? 

Bob Dylan wrote a lot of hit songs, as did the Grateful Dead, Karen Carpenter, Bee Gees, Metallica, Lady Gaga, etc. Lots of different approaches that work in different ways.

I wouldn't ignore the advice, but don't let it tie you to your chair so that you can't escape.


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## J Anfinson (Feb 17, 2017)

I've learned not to pay attention to any rules. If the story entertains me then that's all that matters. If a story I wrote entertains you, then I'm calling it a win.


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## Terry D (Feb 17, 2017)

I don't think of it as a 'rule', or even as a guideline. or suggestion. I simply consider story movement as part of story-telling. How can you develop a character without something going on? Even if the 'character building scene' isn't directly linked to the plot, the character is, right? I assume that character has something to do with the story's outcome, so the scene is building the foundation for that character's later action, ergo, it is moving the plot forward. Probably more so in character driven stories.


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## TKent (Feb 17, 2017)

I try to think of writing books, advice, critique, etc. as "tools" not "rules"


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## Jay Greenstein (Feb 17, 2017)

In general, here's the structure of a scene:

The protagonist has some short term goal, perhaps to visit the post office to mail a critical letter—one that must go out overnight today or that great job he was hoping to get will be gone. So our hero leaves the house with ten minutes to spare and expects to get there in five.

But something goes wrong to interfere and redirect him. Perhaps the neighbor calls him over to say that while she went to grab the mail she's locked herself out, and that her toddler is up, and may come looking for her in the kitchen any minute. But the spice rack is on the back of the open cellar door, which is open. Plus there are hot pots on the stove. So this is an immediate problem that can't be ignored.

Bang, tension has entered in the form of a problem that must be solved, over and above finding a way to get to the post office in time. So now, our hero must look the problem over, solve it or find someone who can, and at the same time must do it within five minutes. And as we follow him and his increasing desperation, our own grows. And _that's_ why we read, to worry about our avatar.

So tension grows till the protagonist fails to achieve the goal and must try an alternate strategy, which could be to find a different job. He might try to deliver the letter himself. And either of those options two could send him in a different direction. Perhaps he meets a spy, or is mistaken for someone else. A host of things may happen, but this scene is over, and he must decide what to do next in what's often called the sequel. Though no matter what he tries, he's going to fail again, and again, and each new scene will begin with the situation worsening and the options narrowing.

So here's the point: If, in that progression, freeze the tension level and have him do things unrelated to the problem, doesn't that tell the reader that the thing the character is working on isn't that important?

And why the escalating tension? Suppose you have two characters fighting with swords, who are so evenly matched that the fight goes on and on. The reader starts the fight excited, and following every blow. But unless the fight ends or the danger increases, the reader will become bored. Unfortunately, if we do keep increasing the pace we'll soon find ourselves into melodrama and the reader will be saying, "Give me a break." So the fight _must_ become ever fiercer, and then end before it becomes a comic book. If the protagonist wins, the story is over, or, it turns out that the win doesn't produce the expected results. If our hero is to remain alive he must lose by withdrawing, or in some way surviving. This article might clarify.

It is possible to have a scene that serves only to develop character, or something that will later become important. But such scenes usually take place very early. But in general, such information can be introduced as part of the opening.  The key is that your reader isn't seeking to get to know the character, their past, and such. They want to watch him/her in action that will make them care, and have a reason to cheer them on. 

Hope this helps.


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## K.S. Crooks (Feb 18, 2017)

If your characters go through a traumatic experience you may need to show how they are dealing with the consequences on a mental or emotional level. This may not advance the plot, but it gives the reader insight into how they characters think and feel. It brings the reader deeper into the story and makes them feel like they're sharing the experience with the characters. This also provides internal logic for how the characters may behave in the future when another tense or traumatic situation arises.


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## Kyle R (Feb 18, 2017)

The way I think of it, every scene should (ideally) move the story forward in some relevant way.

For example, let's say we have a story about two characters who fall in love in a psychiatric hospital, and eventually plot an escape. A scene where they're sharing a meal and talking about their pasts would surely be relevant. It's a bonding moment, part of the journey of their budding relationship.

But what if we throw in a scene where one of the characters goes to their room and plays a video game, and then they get mad at the game and throw it out the window? Is it a relevant scene?

Unless something from that moment relates to the romance/eventual escape storyline, it's probably a dead-end tangent. To fix it, we'd either want to remove it, or somehow make it relevant. Perhaps we can use it as a way of showing our character's frustration-prone personality. Maybe we play off that for some future scene(s).

Whatever we do with it, we have to make it matter _somehow_, otherwise there's a risk of it feeling too random. The last thing I want is a reader finishing one of my scenes and thinking, "Uh, what the heck was the point of _that?_" :grief:

In one of my earlier stories, I had a scene where my character took a shower. The scene had no relevance to the overall plot, except for me thinking, "At this part of the day, he's going to take a shower!" So I described the water, and the soap bubbles, and how he hummed a song, and how he frowned at the splatters of mildew running along the tile grouts. I thought, "Yes, this is good writing. What description!" I even put in some scents and sensations.

The sweet stink of lavender.

The sticky heat of the steam.

But nothing related to the _story_ came out of that scene, other than the simple fact that my character _took a shower_.

Those are the kinds of removable scenes I think of when someone asks, "Does it advance the plot?"

Metaphorically speaking, is your character taking to many showers? :encouragement:


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## J Anfinson (Feb 18, 2017)

Kyle R said:


> But nothing related to the _story_ came out of that scene, other than the simple fact that my character _took a shower_.



That's where I would have assassins kick the door in, causing the MC to flee naked out the window. But I'm mean.


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## HenrySKelton (Feb 23, 2017)

IMO it is a good rule of thumb, but a good writer knows when to ignore the rules. I think one of the biggest considerations is the tone of your novel. If you are going for a fast paced action/adventure, a majority of scenes should be plot driven, even the 'take a breath' moments should have something. 
If you are building something like a Jane Austin novel, it feels like there is room for chapters that are almost entirely character development, though in those cases you will probably still be building towards or resolving some form of conflict.


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## Riptide (Feb 24, 2017)

Sometimes such scenes just ruin a piece. You're hooked, pulled into the action, turn the page to read what happens to mask man who is surrounded by floating bunny heads... just to have him dwaddle on the shade of red splattered on their white fur. How it reminds him of the time he got a paper cut in second grade, but I digress, bunnies are afloat. -- I would be seriously in a foul mood if we went through that bunny hole to just digress back to the beginning. I think it has to reveal something about the character, their motivations, and effect the here and now, other than a simple hearsay to be brought up later. Make it relevant


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## Newman (Mar 2, 2017)

j.w.olson said:


> So a book I'm reading, _How to Tell a Story_ by Rubie and Provost, which has its various strengths and weaknesses, says, "Don't fool yourself into thinking that if nothing plotwise happens in a scene, but it nevertheless shows character development, that's enough. It isn't. Scenes need to show both character development and plot development to be effective."
> [FONT=&Verdana]
> Thoughts? Especially in fantasy/sci-fi where I do a lot of world building? Obviously no rule in writing really applies 100% of the time, but do you generally agree with this? I have my own thoughts, but would appreciate hearing from others. (I also know how a lot of people feel about books about writing.)[/FONT]



You're using plot to manipulate the character, hence develop the character.

It's incorrect because the separation that the quote implies doesn't really exist.


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## j.w.olson (Mar 3, 2017)

All due respect, Newman, but I have written scenes that round out characters in a way entirely tangential to the plot. I have also made a character go through actions and motions without learning, growing, or showing significant personality. I've found examples of both these things in my past writing.

You CAN use plot to manipulate the character, true -- that's a good way of bringing out plot and character development at the same time. The question I've posed is whether you MUST do so for the writing to be considered effective.


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## Sebald (Mar 6, 2017)

Non Serviam said:


> My rule of thumb is that every scene should do two or three of the following:-  (a) advance the plot; (b) build tension; (c) show character; (d) elaborate on one of the novel's themes; (e) establish a plot voucher or Chekhov's gun; or (f) provide counterpoint (e.g. a laugh-out-loud passage in a horror novel; a dark, serious scene in a comedy; a tranquil moment in a war story; you get the idea).



This does seem to be a really good summary by Non Serviam.
Here's a quote from Jami Gold, author of Using conflict to Understand our Characters "We combine internal and external conflicts for a richer story. That means we have to understand how our characters approach and resolve conflict."
In other words, good character-driven stories are as plot-driven as a great crime novel. The author just makes it look as though they're not.


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## wainscottbl (Mar 10, 2017)

I find it hard to define that, at least in literary fiction. In commercial fiction, I lean towards yes, but doing that too much may be cheap need to please stupid, illiterate people. Some people need television in their novel. Don't worry about writing for them. It depends on the genre, too Thrillers, I'd say yes for certain. What do you think you are not doing to advance the plot?


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## kamalayka (Mar 21, 2017)

This rule often applies in short fiction, but even then it's not definitive. In literary fiction, you'll always encounter scenes that could be "cut" from a plot perspective, but then the story would lose life. Stephen King will spend paragraphs delving into "useless" background information. So what? I've sold stories that contain many "pointless" scenes. If the reader has a good time reading it, isn't that the point? (And if a reader is so busy that even their leisurely fiction reading time needs to be efficiently paced, then they probably need to chill the f*** out.)

This rule definitely applies if you're writing a dimestore thriller with as much value as cotton candy (i.e., a book meant to be consumed and expelled and that's it). Otherwise, every scene should serve story, not plot.


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