# Writing a fight scene... Anybody wanna discuss this one?



## Guard Dog (Oct 20, 2018)

It's been mentioned on this thread that they're a challenge to do, to say the least.

I think I might finally be getting a handle on it, but I've still got a long way to go.

Anybody wanna talk about it? Got any tips, suggestions, or other thoughts? Or maybe even an example or two?

I'm fairly sure I'm not the only one that has an interest in getting better at it... And I'll certainly contribute an example if there's an interest in such.


Well? How 'bout it?




G.D.


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## epimetheus (Oct 20, 2018)

I love writing fight scenes. Might be something to do with doing martial arts. Doesn't mean they're good though - i'm not sure.

I like to play out the fight scenes, going through the steps of the aggressor first then the reactor, which can swap around several times during the fight.

Watch some fights and describe them. What kind of fight is it? Where along the scale from realistic to fantastic?


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## EmmaSohan (Oct 20, 2018)

To me, fight scenes are like sex scenes -- a lot of action and description can get you somewhere, but to have a good scene, you have to add the "things" that make any scene good. (Whatever those are.) Obvious things are surprise and turns. And suspense. Everyone knows those?

But character development would be good. Or just showing character. I have no idea how often that fits into a fight scene, but it would add a lot, and you would have more structure than a lot of sword swings.

Why does the hero(ine) win? Or lose? Can that reason be a part of your story?


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## Guard Dog (Oct 20, 2018)

epimetheus said:


> I love writing fight scenes. Might be something to do with doing martial arts. Doesn't mean they're good though - i'm not sure.
> 
> I like to play out the fight scenes, going through the steps of the aggressor first then the reactor, which can swap around several times during the fight.
> 
> Watch some fights and describe them. What kind of fight is it? Where along the scale from realistic to fantastic?



I spent quite a number of years studying various martial arts as well, and due to that, I tend to "over-describe", I'm told.

Apparently, many people don't care for a fight that ends up sounding too much like an instructional guide of some sort.

Due to that, I'm learning how to apply the same technique you'd use for a comic book or graphic novel; only using certain points in the action... describing them... then tying those together in a way that lets the reader use their imagination.

It's not as detailed, but if it's done right, it'll convey the entire fight, without taking up several pages to do. 

It can also be written fairly quickly.



G.D.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 20, 2018)

Removed. It's been here long enough.


G.D.


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## epimetheus (Oct 20, 2018)

Guard Dog said:


> O
> “Can you fight in that rig? Without ending up completely naked, that is?” Sersi asked.
> 
> “You really wanna find out?”



At this point i thought you'd taken EmmaSohan's point that fight scenes are similar to sex scenes too literally.




Guard Dog said:


> Exchanges like this continued back and forth for quite some time, both women moving too fast for those at the table to really follow what was happening.
> 
> Several minutes later, it finally, ended, with the pair sitting in the floor, legs tangled together in strange ways, and both in a mutual strangle-hold, that offered neither any real advantage.



I thought it was excellent up to this point, then it loses too much momentum. Maybe something a little more specific without too much detail, like: 

_Sersi launched a flurry of kicks: high, low, spinning, rib shoot. But always Bonnie was able to anticipate, avoiding the blows or taking thw worst from them. 

In frustration Sersi launched herself at Bonnie, succeeding in bringing both of them down into a writhing ball until their legs tangled in strange ways..._

I don't know, i'm not claiming to be any better.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 20, 2018)

epimetheus said:


> At this point i thought you'd taken EmmaSohan's point that fight scenes are similar to sex scenes too literally.



Actually, there is more going on there than a simple "testing" of Bonnie's abilities and wardrobe.

I'm glad that much did come through.






epimetheus said:


> I thought it was excellent up to this point, then it loses too much momentum. Maybe something a little more specific without too much detail, like:
> 
> _Sersi launched a flurry of kicks: high, low, spinning, rib shoot. But always Bonnie was able to anticipate, avoiding the blows or taking thw worst from them.
> 
> ...



One of the things this didn't convey very well, but that you learn later from a conversation between others there is that Sersi was very much holding back. If she'd been fighting in earnest, Bonnie would have lost rather quickly. Bonnie would have been the one who was frustrated with how things were going. And neither was really trying to hurt the other.

But again, that bit of information comes along later.

Oh, and Sersi is actually a Norse war goddess... and a fair bit taller than Bonnie, who's pretty much just an above-average human, when it comes to fighting and brawling.

But that's previously-obtained information.


Still, thanks for commenting, and giving input. It's much appreciated and will be stored away for future use. 'Cause this is just part of the learning process for me.

Oh, and I almost forgot; I especially like the part I highlighted up there... With a little modification, it's a better way to wrap up the fight than I originally wrote.

I hope it's of use to other people as well.




G.D.


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## epimetheus (Oct 20, 2018)

Guard Dog said:


> Oh, and Sersi is actually a Norse war goddess... and a fair bit taller than Bonnie, who's pretty much just an above-average human, when it comes to fighting and brawling.



Norse mythology isn't my forte but in many other European pantheons there are two flavours of war god/goddess. One that represents the brute side of fighting (Ares), and one that represents stratagum (Athena). One would imagine their fighting styles would be completely different: a good way of conveying character through the fight. From what you've posted i would guess Sersi is more Athenian than Arean?


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## Guard Dog (Oct 20, 2018)

Sersi is Baduhenna. And she's been living among normal people, and working in construction and such, among other things.

Thor also shows up later on as well. ;-)

He's been working as a college professor and instructor... in blacksmithing, and Norse arts/culture.
( And no, he's not as dumb or ill-tempered as mythology says he is, but he's not that guy from the movies either. )

Anyway, enough of that... Let's just stick to the fights. :icon_cheesygrin:

G.D.


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## bdcharles (Oct 20, 2018)

Oh I love fight scenes, sex scenes, anything intense, where the senses get stripped to the raw bone, and you have frenetic motion juxtaposed with patches of zenlike calm.


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## Ralph Rotten (Oct 20, 2018)

How you tell a fight scene varies with the perspective.
3rd person narration will tend to be detailed, 1st person will tend to be more emotional.

I cannot really offer much more. Although I write fight scenes, I personally prefer to find clever ways around them.
I always thought the best fight scene ever was the knife fight in *Butch Cassidy & the Sundance kid*.
That was clever.


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## EmmaSohan (Oct 20, 2018)

> “Can you fight in that rig? Without ending up completely naked, that is?” Sersi asked.



I don't know why Bonnie would end up naked, and that leaves me no agency. (Sersi strips her? Bonnie falls out of her outfit?) and no image. Agency: "By the time I'm done with you, you'll be stark naked." Imagery: "Can you fight in that thing without your overactive breasts falling out?"

I'm trying to make general comments; you can should decide what you like. This, like most criticisms this detailed, start to be about how I would write the scene.



> Bonnie followed and stood in front of her, obviously relaxed, and said “Whenever you’re ready.”


Even though they are talking, don't you want the air crackling with antagonism? "You start, bitch." "Go first, old lady, you desperately need the help."



> Sersi smiled and nodded, and then went into motion, throwing a fast punch at Bonnie’s head.



Hmm, you give the reader a lot more warning than Bonnie got. Don't telegraph your punches. I would write, "Sersi smiled and nodded, throwing a fast punch at Bonnie’s head."



> It was countered, then returned, striking Sersi squarely on the chin.



This is redundant -- countering implies returned. Note how you have left out agency: "It was countered" versus "Bonnie was already blocking her blow"

I feel like I'm being ruthless, and I don't like that. Your scene was fine, normal. But you asked a general question about writing fight scenes.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 20, 2018)

EmmaSohan said:


> I don't know why Bonnie would end up naked, and that leaves me no agency. (Sersi strips her? Bonnie falls out of her outfit?) and no image. Agency: _"By the time I'm done with you, you'll be stark naked." Imagery: "Can you fight in that thing without your overactive breasts falling out?"_



What provokes this little contest is Bonnie showing off a new outfit that's rather skimpy, so Sersi is indeed wondering if she'll fall out of it, or if it's too flimsy and constraining to move properly in.

Again, without the dialog both before and after their fight, much is lost.

If I could figure out a better way to present it, without posting half a chapter, I would. This was just the best I could come up with and keep it fairly brief.



EmmaSohan said:


> I'm trying to make general comments; you can should decide what you like. This, like most criticisms this detailed, start to be about how I would write the scene.



What you're doing is fine. It presents exactly the right sort of information, especially if the fight occurred in a different context. This particular one wasn't coming from malice or antagonism.



EmmaSohan said:


> Even though they are talking, don't you want the air crackling with antagonism? _"You start, bitch." "Go first, old lady, you desperately need the help."_



The air is supposed to be crackling with... something... but it takes more information than I've given in this excerpt to see/know exactly what.




EmmaSohan said:


> Hmm, you give the reader a lot more warning than Bonnie got. Don't telegraph your punches. I would write, "Sersi smiled and nodded, throwing a fast punch at Bonnie’s head."



Well, it is a friendly "contest". In fact, not really a contest at all, as people note after the fact. This is after Kat's comment about them playing rough:

“I dunno… looked pretty gentle to me,” Anna offered.
“Really?” Kat asked. “Looked like they were trying to kill each other, from where I’m sitting.”
“I saw both of them pass up several opportunities to actually hurt each other,” Anna said, “And it’s pretty obvious Sersi is _much_ stronger and quicker than Bonnie. I think they both just wanted to get a feel of each other.” Thinking a second, Anna said, “That didn’t come out quite right… I should have said a feel _FOR_ each other.”
“I’m fairly sure you had it right the first time, Anna,” J.D. said. “Looked more like a public groping than a fight to me… especially that ending.” he finished with a chuckle, and raising his glass to Sersi, who winked back at him.




EmmaSohan said:


> This is redundant -- countering implies returned. Note how you have left out agency: "It was countered" versus "Bonnie was already blocking her blow"



As I was taught, a counter can be anything that opposes an action... as in a counter-balance.
You can counter a punch by dodging, blocking, trapping the limb, etc.

You can also just counter-punch, after you've been hit, or after otherwise dealing with the opponent's blow.

So I suppose how a person will interpret what I wrote will depend on their background.



EmmaSohan said:


> I feel like I'm being ruthless, and I don't like that. Your scene was fine, normal. But you asked a general question about writing fight scenes.



Please, anytime I throw something like this out there - for whatever reason - be honest and say what you think about what I've presented.

It all goes toward the learning process, for myself and anyone reading it.


So thanks for the input. It's a helluva lot more useful than a blank screen, no matter how ya stack it. :grin:



G.D.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 20, 2018)

Just a quick note here...

Even though I started this thread, I don't want it to end up being about me, or what I'm writing.

I'm hoping that a bunch of people will get involved, and that it'll be a useful conversation for anybody who comes along that finds they need or want to write a fight scene.

All I can do at this point is show how I'm going about it, and give some explanation of why I did it that way.

But without seeing or hearing from other people, none of us who are just starting with this stuff are likely to change or improve the way we go about it. ( Well, except maybe through blind luck. )

So step up and speak your mind, or ask a question. Ya don't have to be an expert or professional, all ya need is an opinion. It's all good.



G.D.


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## Annoying kid (Oct 21, 2018)

> “Don’t. ‘Cause I won’t return the favor,” Bonnie said, with a strange fire in her eyes.
> 
> “Alright… over here then,” Sersi said, getting to her feet and walking over between J.D.’s quarters and the table.
> 
> ...



The fight above tries to sell itself on choreography, but  moves have very little value and are actually boring if we can't see it.  Prose's strengths is in telling us what's internal and underneath the external fact the one character is hitting the other. I don't want to hear about flips and counters and whatever beyond simply establishing a highly skilled fight is going on. Once you've done that telling us about what Sersi thinks of her moves, exactly what she's looking for, how she feels about fighting Bonnie, why she doesn't want to hurt her, why she's testing her to begin with, thoughts on Bonnie's style, any flaws and strengths of Bonnie's style against the qualities of her own, and many more interesting, deeper aspects. By trying to make it like a graphic novel, you are fundamentally screwing yourself. As I told you last night, the two mediums are not comparable when it comes to portraying action.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 21, 2018)

Thanks for voicing your opinion, AK.

Every little bit helps here, and is welcome.



G.D.


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## Annoying kid (Oct 21, 2018)

The only interesting moves in prose are those thats set the scene and those that change the status of the fighters.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 21, 2018)

Again, thanks for the _opinion_.

:thumbr:



G.D.


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## Zanoh (Oct 21, 2018)

My opinion on a fight scene: It is fought not just physically, but mentally as well. At the core of all fights, it is a war of ideology, as well as strength.

Qouting Sun Tzu, “When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men’s weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be damped. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength....Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor damped, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue.”

Applying this thought, one must conjure the reason of conflict, the hook of what draws readers to a battle, the thoughts and focus of a character, which adds the depth of the internal struggle they face, and the actions of their fight which reflect the tensions one must endure.

For example, a sword fight.

It is easier to say, “Swordsman A lunges his sword toward Swordsman B to kill him”. However, while we know the resulting action, we do not know what passions or stirs of fate conspired such action.

a more rough, but revised idea would be that these swordsman were destined to fight, for the future of their kingdoms. Should one fall, their army would be demoralised. Swordsman A is thinking about returning victorious to marry the one he loves, and swordsman B wishes to be victorious only to see his family again. Whose will and desire be stronger, such makes a great clash of tale.


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## Zanoh (Oct 21, 2018)

In my view, a good fight scene is not just the physical, but mentality as well. This is because at the core of all conflicts, there is a difference of ideology. In my studying of university literature, I notice why classics are highly regarded. It is not just the physical that is being described, but the ideologies, and forces that conspire to serve emphasis on the conflict.

For example, it is easy to say “Swordsman A lunged his blade into Swordsman B, killing him instantly”. The reader knows the action, but is deprived of the drama and tension, the reasons why these men fight.

So what if both swordsman are the valiant heroes of their kingdoms, this already places fate that they must fight each other, for the death of one demoralises their army and the fate of their kingdom lost. On top of this, Swordsman A wishes to be victorious in the hopes to marry the woman he loves. Swordsman B wishes to be victorious to be with his family again. Whose will and determination is stronger? That is where the description of physical action compliments such clash.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 21, 2018)

Zanoh, it seems to me that what you're saying here is basically a confirmation and reinforcement of what Ralph Rotten said up there in post #11:


Ralph Rotten said:


> How you tell a fight scene varies with the perspective.
> 3rd person narration will tend to be detailed, 1st person will tend to be more emotional.



And the fight I presented here does the same... the emotional content and motivation comes before the actual fight, and is confirmed afterwards. 

The fight by it's self actually tells you very little about the state of mind or reasoning of the two combatants.

It's basically of no real importance, other than as a means of character development: 

Both women want to find something out about the other. It's their particular means of getting to know each other. 

And although on the surface, it appears to be a contest, it's actually a probing, or exploratory process.

The excuse used to initiate it is Bonnie's clothing, rather than either woman simply saying "Hey, I wanna get to know you a little better. Let's go spar a bit."

But, as I said to EmmaSohan, all of that information is lost once the fight is cut out and taken in isolation.

Now the real question, for me at least, becomes... Is it possible to combine the emotional content of a first person conflict with the detail of a third person conflict, and have it work? At least in this particular circumstance/situation?

I'd have to say from BdCharles' example in post #10 that it is, since he did the job of getting a fair amount of both things in there, where I didn't.

But then, his fight was a real fight, with life or death hanging in the balance, and malice being the motivation, where my example wasn't.

...and now I have to look at what I wrote again, and decide if I want to alter it into something completely different, or simply edit/modify it a bit, but leave it essentially what it is. :nightmare: :shock: :icon_cheesygrin:





G.D.


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## Kyle R (Oct 21, 2018)

Zanoh said:


> My opinion on a fight scene: It is fought not just physically, but mentally as well.
> 
> ... the thoughts and focus of a character, which adds the depth of the internal struggle they face, and the actions of their fight which reflect the tensions one must endure.



I agree. :encouragement:

Like most scenes, I find that the deeper one goes _into_ the character, the more likely the reader is to feel it. Everything that happens outside the character should affect their internal landscape in some way. 

If the antagonist is driving a sword toward the protagonist, I want to make the reader feel like that sword is driving toward _them_. And the best way to do that (IMO) is to write from the inside out.

You don't _feel_ things that happen outside yourself. They only take on significance when they're internalized. A man slowly lifting a knife is just a man slowly lifting a knife—until we see it happening through the eyes of his frightened wife.


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## Zanoh (Oct 21, 2018)

Guard Dog said:


> Zanoh, it seems to me that what you're saying here is basically a confirmation and reinforcement of what Ralph Rotten said up there in post #11:
> 
> Now the real question, for me at least, becomes... Is it possible to combine the emotional content of a first person conflict with the detail of a third person conflict, and have it work? At least in this particular circumstance/situation?



I agree to some extent what Ralph said, namely that how one tells a fight scene depends on perspective. What I disagree on is the notion that third person is more descriptive than first person. Both, if utilised well, can be highly highly descriptive, subject to the imagination of the author or writer.

When you asked for the opinion of what a fight scene should incur, it is my view that a writer must find equal balance between internal and external struggle, of character, ideology, and prowess.

Too much emphasis on physical, deprives the reader of internal character dialogue and tension.

too much emphasis on mental, deprives the reader of the physical actions of the character in a struggle.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 21, 2018)

Zanoh said:


> I agree to some extent what Ralph said, namely that how one tells a fight scene depends on perspective. What I disagree on is the notion that third person is more descriptive than first person. Both, if utilised well, can be highly highly descriptive, subject to the imagination of the author or writer.
> 
> When you asked for the opinion of what a fight scene should incur, it is my view that a writer must find equal balance between internal and external struggle, of character, ideology, and prowess.
> 
> ...



And I too _mostly_ agree with what you're saying here... But I'd add that finding that balance - and what it actually needs to be - varies with the nature and circumstance of the fight.

Because sometimes, as in the example I posted, there is no real internal struggle. There's not even a matter of ideology. It's just two people asking questions and getting answers in an unusual way.

Also, although I'm quite sure I have both the imagination and technical knowledge to write a very detailed fight, the thing I have the most trouble with is determining how much detail is needed.

I tend toward the "too much", and it's something I'm working on figuring out. Ending up with not enough detail might be the slightly better choice, but again, I think it's a matter of context, and what the real goal is for the particular fight.

The people I've spoken to on other forums about this seem to lean way too hard into the "less is more, let the reader's imagination fill in the blanks" theory to suit me, but then I'm also aware that it'll depend on what the reader wants and expects as well. And at this point, all I can do is try a few variations and see what people think, then try to "average" it  out.

So the bottom line seems to be that although there's many ways to go about it, everybody is different. And what actually ends up being "best" is gonna come down to the intended audience and individual reader, since there's no real "standard" that a writer can rely on.





G.D.


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## epimetheus (Oct 21, 2018)

Zanoh said:


> What I disagree on is the notion that third person is more descriptive than first person. Both, if utilised well, can be highly highly descriptive, subject to the imagination of the author or writer.



This is utilised in the Chinese Wu Xia genre a lot. The fighters are generally high level martial artists and you often learn about the enemy by following the protagonist through the fight.

By the way, A Hero Born has just been translated to English, a classic of the genre with loads of fighting.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 21, 2018)

epimetheus said:


> This is utilised in the Chinese Wu Xia genre a lot. The fighters are generally high level martial artists and you often learn about the enemy by following the protagonist through the fight.
> 
> By the way, A Hero Born has just been translated to English, a classic of the genre with loads of fighting.



This sounds almost like a martial arts movie.

Might work for some people, but a bit too focused on the fighting it's self to work for me.

Yes, I want to learn how to write a better fight scene, but I certainly don't want the story to be nothing but that. 

Besides, about half my characters would either reduce the opponent to a pile of ash, shoot them, or just rip their head off and be done with it. 

It does point out the difference of how one would go about writing a fight scene, based on a certain culture or genre. Or even a particular mindset.


G.D.


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## EmmaSohan (Oct 21, 2018)

Okay, in your scene, Sersi has a plan, and then n_othing goes wrong_. I can hardly go five minutes of my life without anything going wrong. (I wanted to stir my coffee but there were no stirrings; I wanted to take an enjoyable sip of my coffee and it was too strong.)

That's not good for most scenes. That's general advice. Try rewriting your fight scene with at least something going wrong. (Or better than expected.) I give that a 75% of working.

No one in the audience participates, such as trying to stop the fight or at least shout out things. You can safely ignore that minor problem (they can't actually be silent, right?), but you should at least try adding things from the audience to see if that helps. And that's a general principle too that has nothing to do with fight scenes. You also don't have the two fighters talking.

So, the general point, with Guard Dog just offering a way to be concrete, is that you can try to let the action carry the scene, but you probably want to apply all the other ways we know to make the scene interesting.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 21, 2018)

EmmaSohan said:


> Okay, in your scene, Sersi has a plan, and then n_othing goes wrong_.



Well, Sersi is a goddess... or at least ex-goddess, kind'a.

And since Bonnie's outfit held up and stayed on... maybe things didn't quite go according to plan? 



EmmaSohan said:


> I can hardly go five minutes of my life without anything going wrong. (I wanted to stir my coffee but there were no stirrings; I wanted to take an enjoyable sip of my coffee and it was too strong.)



Wow... So which god or goddess did _you_ piss off?

Things get pretty crazy with me sometimes, but for the most part run pretty smoothly... at least now that I've run all the troublemakers off. So maybe I'm just far more lucky than I realize, since things going wrong are pretty rare. ( When they do, they're usually rather spectacularly wrong and something to see though. )

Also, this part of the story involves gathering people together... It's not a tense or combative time for this crew. And there has been a few problems already; a thieving delivery driver, a jackass new guy that got pounded by several people there, and more than a little conflict between the creators of this existence. So it's not like it's been all that quiet and peaceful.

But maybe I just chose the wrong fight to show folks? I thought this one might be good for discussing the technical aspects of a fight... the describing of it... but maybe it isn't? I really didn't want or intend to have to explain the entire story or even the whole scene behind it.

Anyway, thanks for the input... I will be giving it another going-over and edit, but I'm not sure it'll change that much, due to the situation and what's happening/been happening around it.



G.D.


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## Annoying kid (Oct 21, 2018)

Zanoh said:


> In my view, a good fight scene is not just the physical, but mentality as well. This is because at the core of all conflicts, there is a difference of ideology. In my studying of university literature, I notice why classics are highly regarded. It is not just the physical that is being described, but the ideologies, and forces that conspire to serve emphasis on the conflict.
> 
> For example, it is easy to say “Swordsman A lunged his blade into Swordsman B, killing him instantly”. The reader knows the action, but is deprived of the drama and tension, the reasons why these men fight.
> 
> So what if both swordsman are the valiant heroes of their kingdoms, this already places fate that they must fight each other, for the death of one demoralises their army and the fate of their kingdom lost. On top of this, Swordsman A wishes to be victorious in the hopes to marry the woman he loves. Swordsman B wishes to be victorious to be with his family again. Whose will and determination is stronger? That is where the description of physical action compliments such clash.



Physical action that doesn't slow the pacing of the scene and doesn't focus on telling us what each fighter did with the sword, but rather what they are doing to each other. We've all seen star wars, Zorro, MMA and Bruce Lee, so need very little to imagine a decent fight scene with very little descriptive prompting. All the writer really needs to do is let us know what kind of fight is happening, as the reader can draw from what they already know from culture. This frees the writer to focus on the pathos, motivation, the critical moves that actually matter and interesting use of the environment.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 22, 2018)

Annoying kid said:


> ...All the writer really needs to do is let us know what kind of fight is happening, as the reader can draw from what they already know from culture. This frees the writer to focus on the pathos, motivation, the critical moves that actually matter and interesting use of the environment.



And this is exactly what I was told/taught elsewhere, and why I'm working on using the bare minimum in describing techniques and movements to convey a fight... Brief glimpses of detail, or "snapshots" of the action, as it were, leaving the reader's imagination to fill in the details as they choose.

And believe me, it's tough for someone who thrives on detail, and has many years of formal combat training to reduce things down in the needed manner. There's always the temptation to describe just one more joint lock, or add one more knee to the face.  

In having this discussion on another forum, a couple of months back, I tried an exercise where I described a particular technique in detail, lining it out and describing every motion of each individual as if I were teaching a person to perform it.

Then I wrote a brief fight using exactly what I had described. I made up 2 or 3 versions of it, dropping details with each additional rewrite.

The one most people liked best was the one where the attacker attempted to grab the person by the throat, but only found his right hand/arm blocked and grabbed, then before he knew what was going on, was on the ground, face down, nose and lips bleeding, and his right arm pointed at the ceiling, with the defender standing over him, holding his arm in a painful joint lock.

That was basically enough for the people who commented on it; all they wanted or needed. Nothing in between mattered one bit to 'em.

Go figure. *shrug*


G.D.


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## epimetheus (Oct 22, 2018)

Guard Dog said:


> This sounds almost like a martial arts movie.



It basically is, though it predates movies by a couple of thousand years. I'm not sure of any other combat orientated genres.

Half the book is detailed fight scenes - that's why people buy it. It seems there is a massive market for it in China and an increasing one in Europe.

One way they seem to cut corners is by naming moves: _Zhang Fei spiralled his spear forward in a Black Dragon Enters The Raging River, piercing the soldier through his shoulder with a wail...
_
Quite what this Black Dragon move entails is never detailed, leaving it entirely to the reader to imagine whatever suitably acrobatic sequence of moves that they wish.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 22, 2018)

epimetheus said:


> It basically is, though it predates movies by a couple of thousand years. I'm not sure of any other combat orientated genres.
> 
> Half the book is detailed fight scenes - that's why people buy it. It seems there is a massive market for it in China and an increasing one in Europe.



Then I can't decide if it's fortunate or unfortunate that I'm not writing for those markets.

Then again, since I'm not really writing for _any_ market, I don't guess it matters much.



epimetheus said:


> One way they seem to cut corners is by naming moves: _Zhang Fei spiralled his spear forward in a Black Dragon Enters The Raging River, piercing the soldier through his shoulder with a wail...
> _
> Quite what this Black Dragon move entails is never detailed, leaving it entirely to the reader to imagine whatever suitably acrobatic sequence of moves that they wish.



That's always the one thing I had the least amount of use for, when I was actively studying martial arts... the culture and language.

After all, I wasn't there to become Japanese or Chinese, I just wanted to learn how to fight. And a side kick was still a side kick, even if it had a name in another language.

As for writing and fights, I just want to learn how to present them in the best possible manner, and as clearly as possible, without them destroying or otherwise imposing on the story too much.

After all, it's the characters... the people... and what they are doing and why, who are the most important to me. Not the way I describe them doing things.

Still, it's the way I describe things that are either the most beneficial or detrimental to the story, so I need to learn to do it right.

...even the stuff that really doesn't matter that much, like fights.



G.D.


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## Guard Dog (Nov 2, 2018)

Something I ran across this morning and thought might be useful:

Writer's Guide: Fight Scenes | Video Essay

It's about 15 minutes long, and you can always let it run in the background while you're doing other things.


G.D.


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## epimetheus (Nov 2, 2018)

Well worth a watch, thanks.


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## Guard Dog (Nov 2, 2018)

epimetheus said:


> Well worth a watch, thanks.



Yeah, I thought it was a pretty good summation of what I've heard here and elsewhere.

Glad you liked it.



G.D.


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## Dluuni (Nov 4, 2018)

Well, for me, and I already see we have very different styles, it's important to use the action to characterize and build things other than the fight itself. Take the fight scene I drafted for the challenge thread above yours. There's an awful lot happening there, and very little is the actual conflict. 

The thugs posture and prod at bits of his character that he wouldn't otherwise think about, so it stirs those into character voice. Poor guy spends an awful lot of time trying to befriend his attackers and silently regretting some scars that he's sure they don't have. The whole buildup is flashing spotlights on things that he wouldn't normally discuss. 

Then people start moving, and it's pretty immediately obvious what the level of skill is. We know how things are going to end pretty quickly. All he can think about during the action is a woman's perfume, and he walks away determined to go find her and smell more of it. 

The actual blocking of the fight, while hopefully entertaining, is practically just padding to hang that off of. It's me trying to find a way to push character and background without being telly or monologuing. And for that, I have to have stuff building space to voice it.


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## Guard Dog (Nov 4, 2018)

Dluuni said:


> ...Then people start moving, and it's pretty immediately obvious what the level of skill is. We know how things are going to end pretty quickly.




Hell, I can do that without anybody moving much at all.

Here:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Can’t leave ya alone for a minute without you gettin’ inta trouble, can I? What the hell have you been up to this time?, Marcus said, shaking his head in exasperation.

“That will be enough, Mister Lamann. This is a serious matter, and you’ve already been in, and caused, enough trouble for one day,” Gia said.

“Really? Serious matter? Lady, I dunno who you are, but it’s pretty obvious you don’t know where you are, or who you’re dealin’ with.”

This was the last thing Marcus said before he found himself blasted back into the elevator, and unconscious on the floor, with Gia sitting there at the table, arm outstretched, and a curl of smoke rising from her hand.

Looking at J.D., she said “He really doesn’t know when to shut up, does he? I thought we did better than that with him. Pity…”

“He dead?” J.D. asked.

“No. I just thought I’d try knocking a little sense into him, while also convincing him I am who he’s been told. I figured the old “Thunderbolt” trick would do it. But we’ll see, I suppose.”

“It convinced me.” Bonnie said, peeping over her glass as she took another drink.

“same here,” Margot added, rattling a fingertip in her ear. “Loud as fuck, those thunderbolts. My ears’ll be ringing for a week."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sometimes the best fights are the briefest.




G.D.


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## epimetheus (Nov 4, 2018)

Guard Dog said:


> Sometimes the best fights are the briefest.



Two things i noticed: 
Marcus sometimes says _ya_ and other times _you. I_s that on purpose?
How can Marcus find himself at the back of the elevator if he's unconscious?


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## Guard Dog (Nov 4, 2018)

epimetheus said:


> Two things i noticed:
> Marcus sometimes says _ya_ and other times _you. I_s that on purpose?
> How can Marcus find himself at the back of the elevator if he's unconscious?



Yeah, some of us speak that way.

To clear it up a little further, Marcus starts off being his usual wise-ass self... That's when he tends to speak "less properly". However, once Gia scolds him, he gets indignant and speaks more clearly and properly. 

It basically indicates a change in his tone and manner.

And Marcus found himself _blasted_... He'll work out his location when he wakes up.


G.D.


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## Dluuni (Nov 4, 2018)

Sure, blasters resolve things a lot faster than having to step up and punch the first of three thugs who has fifty pounds on the protagonist in a contemporary romance.  (Should I repost that one for this, or link it somehow? It's boneyard, it doesn't fit into my outline.) 
I was definitely getting a Western feeling from your excerpts there. Sort of a "Texan Greek Gods with concealed plasma blaster implants" feel.


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## Guard Dog (Nov 4, 2018)

Dluuni said:


> I was definitely getting a Western feeling from your excerpts there. Sort of a "Texan Greek Gods with concealed plasma blaster implants" feel.



Gia is "Creator of all that is" in this reality. God, for lack of a better term. Her sister, Lilith, is the other side of that equation, though not the evil creature usually associated with the position... just the "enforcer" of the rules, more or less.

...and yes, there's a fair number of Greek, Roman, Norse, and Celtic gods and goddesses roaming around.

And no, Gia didn't use a plasma blaster. Why would she?

By the way, have you read Sersi's and Bonnie's fight that I posted at the top of this thread? It's in the same world. Same exact house, even.



G.D.


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