# Researching the English Designations/Titles



## Cat Laurelle (Aug 11, 2011)

I'm researching the levels of the British Lord's etc...and it's very complex I'm surprised to find out. And that they originally come from the Germanic tribes. It's fun to think about and talk about, but now I'm stumping myself as to what to call the female offspring of an Earl, I think it's a "Lady?" 
And I'm not finding an actual Count as a title at all? Just a "Visacount."


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## Sam (Aug 11, 2011)

It's an Earl and Countess. 

'Count' is just a shortened version of 'Viscount', that's all.


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## Bloggsworth (Aug 11, 2011)

This question is, of course, far more complicated than it may first appear. At that time British Society had more levels than _Grand Theft Auto_. You mention "The mess", well, if the ball takes place in the officer's mess, then full dress uniform would, of course, be de rigueur. If the ball wasn't on military property, then the rules would depend on your social position. In the unlikely event that an officer who had been "made up" from the ranks had been invited to a society ball, he may well chose to wear dress uniform as he would not have the wherewithall to afford the sort of clothes that would mark him out in society. I doubt he would wear his medals in a ball off-base, unless it were governmental in some way (Incidentally, I'm not sure when the use of a set of scaled down medals for social occasions came into use). Another consideration is the award of medals; the British Government of the time were very parsimonious when it came to handing out decorations, it was sometimes the case that you had to buy them, on others they didn't award them until half the combatants had died of old age!

From the way you phrase your question I get the impression that you are not in the UK.

Your most likely source of information far more authoratative than mine is the Imperial War Museum, or an individual regimental musem. It may be that you can gain access to a copy of "The Army Act" (or some such name) of the period, I would think that it would have details of when, where and under what circumstances dress uniform was required. It is usually a good idea to get the details just right, there are a lot of pedants out there just waiting for a chance to snipe at those who make the slightest slip.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful, I was a forces brat, but that was nearly 60 years ago...


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## Sam (Aug 11, 2011)

Sorry, I misread. I thought you meant the Earl's wife, not daughter. I have no idea what her title would be.


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## Bloggsworth (Aug 11, 2011)

Sam W said:


> Sorry, I misread. I thought you meant the Earl's wife, not daughter. I have no idea what her title would be.



Probably_ The Lady What's'er Name _or_ The Honourable What's'er Name

_I would think that the _Order of Precedence _of British nobility is easily available on line. Needless to say, it's complicated, as forms of address are related to age, first daughter, second daughter etc. Look here for starters:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_precedence_in_England_and_Wales#Wives_and_daughters_of_peers.2C_baronets.2C_and_knights.2C_et_al.


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## Cat Laurelle (Aug 11, 2011)

No a countess is an Earls wife. So the daughter as far as I understand is only called a Lady.


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## Cat Laurelle (Aug 11, 2011)

Honorable means the Earl is dead or something, and she's a widow or is divorced I think I read.


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## Cat Laurelle (Aug 11, 2011)

I have to figure out what a visacount's wife is, then if a countess is an Earl's wife?


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## Bloggsworth (Aug 11, 2011)

Cat Laurelle said:


> Honorable means the Earl is dead or something, and she's a widow or is divorced I think I read.



Twaddle - Do the research. Count is not used in the UK. The widow might be referred to as _"The dowager....",_ the divorced wouldn't be mentioned at all.
I posted a link to the order of precedence, but it would seem people prefer to guess...


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## Bloggsworth (Aug 11, 2011)

Cat Laurelle said:


> I have to figure out what a visacount's wife is, then if a countess is an Earl's wife?



What's a Visacount - Someone aristocratic who runs a credit card company - and it's not pronounced _A-Wrist-O-Crat_


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## Joanna Stone (Sep 24, 2011)

The wife of a vicount is a vicountess.  Their children are the Honourable John Bloggins and the Honourable Jane Bloggins - but the title is only used in writing ie on letters to the Hon John Bloggins.... and in speech they will be addressed as Mr Bloggins or Miss Bloggins.

An Earl's daughter will be Lady Jane Bloggins - spoken to as Lady Jane, the eldest son will have some sort of title, usually Vicount, the younger sons will be the Honourable John Bloggins etc.

The daughters and younger sons of Dukes and Marquises are Lord John Bloggins and Lady Jane Bloggins - eldest sons have titles.


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