# Do I Really Wanna Be A Writer?



## muddy13001 (Jan 14, 2013)

I remember the first time I enjoyed writing. It was my last writing assignment in English class on the last year of middle school. The assignment was to write a story, that's it, no format to follow. I was loving it and got an A. My teacher told me that I have the best paper in that class and in all of is other classes too, I was feeling good when I heard that. All through high school was loving the writing assignment that did't have a format and always got an A. But when I try to write at home I don't get that feeling all time, and I hate it. I felt like I finally found what I wanted to do for a living, now I don't know. Would love to hear other peoples opinion about this. Thank you.


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## Staff Deployment (Jan 14, 2013)

Sounds like all you need is a push and some quick feedback. Why don't you take some of the writing prompts on this site, or enter the LM contest? At the very least, it's pretty fun.


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## Nee (Jan 14, 2013)

Writers write. How does want come into it...? 
Writing is a byproduct of who you are. 
So be who you are and write.

...then post some of it


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## Jeko (Jan 14, 2013)

Redefine the term 'writer'. The fact you wrote that post makes you a writer.

Do you want to never pick up a pen again in your life? Probably not. But neither do you want to have a mindset that defiens you as a person who writes a certain thing, a certain way, and that's what you do for a living. Just write, and the words will form the paycheck of your efforts.


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## Jagunco (Jan 14, 2013)

A lot of people have been in your shoes mate. I myself have thought I had activities that I would like to make a living from go sour. The ugly truth is that making a living from something is hard work and hard work is normally no as enjoyable as doing something for recreation.

Alas even on a job we take great pride in the feel good factor is perhaps 1% of the time. All I can counsel you to do it get your head down and keep going. If you do run the gauntlet you'll get your feel good factor on the other side when a publisher tells you that they'd like to publish your work....

Remember man Rome wasn't built in a day


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## Bloggsworth (Jan 14, 2013)

If you have to ask yourself the question, then the answer is probably no.


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## Lewdog (Jan 14, 2013)

I'm more of a typer than a writer.  Hmm someone should invent a bridge between the two...and call it a typewriter.  Genius!


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## Freakconformist (Jan 14, 2013)

When I was about 13 years old my parents gave me a sketch tablet and told me that I was talented. So I started drawing. Every Christmas my family gave me art supplies and the more I drew the more people told me I was talented. Even when I knew what I drew was crap, people said, "Well, I can't draw that well. You're talented." All through middle school and high school I took art class and got all A's. I even won awards. Then I went to college, my Art Professor told me I was sloppy, and I quit college. For years, I continued to draw and sketch and paint. I would scan my work in and show it around online, and I got angry because people weren't telling me I was talented. 

The thing is I do have a talent that lends itself to art; I'm very detail-oriented (to borrow a line off my resume), I have a gentle touch, I have a good taste and an appreciation for natural beauty. However, the only reason people thought I was so good at art was because I practiced it all the time as a teenager. I wasted about 10 years of my life mistakenly believing that because I "talent"  in something that meant I was supposed to make a career out of it. When, in fact, the only reason I even got serious about art was because it made me feel special. Like any drug, when I stopped getting that appreciation high, I became obsessed with it. You can't imagine the release I felt when I realized I didn't seriously want to make art for a living. 

I'm not quite sure I want to write for a living either, but I know that I want to get my stories written down. If I can just make myself finish a story I have no objection to having it published. I don't even show my stories to my friends and family, they still don't think I'm serious when I say I want to write. I still want that appreciation sometimes, but it's not as important as finishing a full story.


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## shadowwalker (Jan 14, 2013)

The thing is, if you want to write fiction, the chances of earning your living by it are pretty slim. So take that off the table first. Amazing how much stress goes out the window along with it. Now you can sit back and realize you can enjoy writing and, with hard work and luck, perhaps make some money from it as well. If you still can't find the interest, enjoyment, or need to write (and yes, writers do have a _need_ to write), then it probably isn't something you're going to do much with. Move on.


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## Ariel (Jan 14, 2013)

I realized that I need to write because when I don't an enormous amount of stress builds up in my life and I break.  I know this from not writing for four years.  I don't know that I'll ever make a name or be published (I hope so) but I have to write.

So, on whether you should be a writer really depends on you.  Take a break from it.  Stop writing.  And if the pressure builds to the point your ready to burst and is only relieved by writing then yes, you should be a writer.


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## Abbey08 (Jan 14, 2013)

Periodically, I decide that I'm not going to write anymore. My photography work takes off, and throw writing poetry to the curb. Until...I observe something that I'll never get down in an image(I don't draw, paint, or that kind of thing)and the only way to record it is in my poetry. And I write for a while, until...I decide to kick it to the curb. Truthfully, my photographic image making comes first in my creative life, followed closely by my poetry. The truth probably resides in the fact that if I could draw or paint, I'd probably have no need to write.

Lorraine


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## Ariel (Jan 14, 2013)

My first love--and first hate--is the written word.  I both love and despise reading. And the same goes for writing.  But don't tell the Fella.  He thinks he's only second to the Beast.


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## garza (Jan 14, 2013)

Go to your local newspaper, radio station, and TV station. Tell them you want to string for them, strictly freelance, no obligations either side. Start writing stories to take to them, stories about events of strictly local interest that aren't big enough for a paid reporter to be sent to cover. Scouts, churches, garden clubs, civic clubs, whatever. Take in the stories and listen carefully to what they say if they say they can't use it. Keep writing, and keep turning in what you write. One day they'll use one of your stories. Listen carefully to what they say when they say why they can use it. This is a course of study called 'Journalism 101'. It's a very good course for learning to write, and learning whether you really want to write. Soon they'll pay you for the stories they use. Then they'll give you assignments and a press card. You're in.

edit - I forgot to mention - never take a staff job if you can help it. Stay freelance. Then you can go wherever you want to go and write whatever you want to write, and if you're writing is any good you'll always find a buyer.

60 years from now as a retired journalist you'll sit back and say, 'I really did want to write, after all.'

Now if it's fiction you want to write, turn out short stories in between writing for the local media. Send the stories to the little literary magazines or post them here. Write, submit, and write some more. Work both sides of the fence, fiction and non-fiction. That's what I sort of wish I'd done, but I gave up on fiction early on. I've made a decent living, but maybe a bit more effort in fiction would have paid off. Or maybe not.


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## moderan (Jan 14, 2013)

To some degree it depends on how masochistic you are, and how inspired. Writing is to me just something one does. It isn't the definition of self. Doing it for a career depends a lot on dumb luck. You can make a living at it if you're a good shopper but it isn't easy.
As amsawtell noted, writing was my first love. I've never hated it. I've been fortunate. The fates had other careers in mind but it's been a paying hobby for a long time.
Have tried to quit once or twice, but no go.
I'm actually making a stab at doing it full-time now, after somewhere around 40 years of wanting to. I'll letcha know how it goes.
'


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## muddy13001 (Jan 14, 2013)

Bloggsworth said:


> If you have to ask yourself the question, then the answer is probably no.



I can't say no. I was thinking about saying that when I read your comment, but I could see myself doing that.


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## muddy13001 (Jan 14, 2013)

shadowwalker said:


> The thing is, if you want to write fiction, the chances of earning your living by it are pretty slim. So take that off the table first. Amazing how much stress goes out the window along with it. Now you can sit back and realize you can enjoy writing and, with hard work and luck, perhaps make some money from it as well. If you still can't find the interest, enjoyment, or need to write (and yes, writers do have a _need_ to write), then it probably isn't something you're going to do much with. Move on.



Fiction is what I like, I have so many stores in my head that I want to write.


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## Staff Deployment (Jan 14, 2013)

amsawtell said:


> My first love--and first hate--is the written word.  I both love and despise reading. And the same goes for writing.  But don't tell the Fella.  He thinks he's only second to the Beast.



I hope the Beast isn't what I think it is.

(werewolves are _expensive_ significant others)


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## Morkonan (Jan 15, 2013)

muddy13001 said:


> ...Would love to hear other peoples opinion about this. Thank you.



You're already halfway there. The problem is, as I see it with the scant information I have at the moment, that you perceive a difference between writing as a class assignment and writing as a career. There isn't a difference. Well, I suppose there is one - You can get paid for doing one and must pay to do the other. Sometimes, that gets a bit confusing when you're not getting paid either way... 

I think you may like to write, but you may have trouble coming up with sufficient motivation. Exercising is like that... Most people like to play competitive games and some of those involved physical activity. So, we get a workout playing tennis, football, basketball, volleyball or even bowling and have a lot of fun. But, put a treadmill in front of us or some weights for us to lift and we have trouble deciding whether or not to dedicate the same amount of calories to exercising for the sake of our health that we would for the enjoyment of a game.

You enjoyed writing as an assignment. What you need to train yourself to do is to write as an assignment for yourself or even for others in a situation where your competition involves grades given to you by willing consumers of your work instead of some teacher or professor. You need to focus on what I believe writers should focus on - The consumer. Stop thinking that writing is just for your own enjoyment! Instead, combine your own love of writing into something much more meaningful by producing works that are intended to entertain, inform or otherwise capture the attention of others.

When you write something intended solely for your own amusement, you're either just doodling, mentally stroking yourself or otherwise producing something that doesn't contribute to the experience of any other person. What sort of worthwhile activity is that? Sure, some people write for therapeutic reasons and that's just fine. But, if you're going to be a real "Writer", you have to write with a motivation that is something more than that - Write for the enrichment of others.

Think about that for awhile. Think about a life dedicated to writing, which you enjoy, but focused on enriching the lives of others through the exercising of your skill at the craft. Can you do that? Can you write with the specific intent of creating a work that will entertain others? If that appeals to you, then you could combine your enjoyment of writing with a profession that takes direct advantage of that skill. If it doesn't appeal to you, then you may wish to continue to writing for your own pleasure, but don't attempt to make a career out of it.

(Also, if you're trying to make money with your writing, get a good mundane job that has steady pay... You'll need it.  )


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## garza (Jan 15, 2013)

I'm in agreement with all that Morkonan says except that last bit. I became a writer to avoid having to get a job.


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## Ariel (Jan 15, 2013)

Staff Deployment said:


> I hope the Beast isn't what I think it is.
> 
> (werewolves are _expensive_ significant others)



He just wishes he was a werewolf.  The Beast is my dog.  I've had him for nine years now and he's my best friend.  If I could he'd go to work with me and he'd go everywhere with me.


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## Morkonan (Jan 15, 2013)

garza said:


> I'm in agreement with all that Morkonan says except that last bit. I became a writer to avoid having to get a job.



Hot damn! I'm in the right place! Success at not having a job, here I come!


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## garza (Jan 15, 2013)

Don't get me wrong. There's a lot of effort involved and at the start a total lack of security. There were some hungry days during my first year out of university, but after that I was established. 

You can go look for a job and have security until they fire you, or you can put everything into writing and build a reputation that will ensure you can pay the rent and buy the groceries until you are too old to reach the keyboard. 

It's important to pick the right place to do your writing. These days I would recommend Afghanistan or almost anywhere in the Mid-East. Somalia's another good spot. Or pick out the latest hotspot you hear about on the news and go there.


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## moderan (Jan 15, 2013)

muddy13001 said:


> Fiction is what I like, I have so many stores in my head that I want to write.


That's the harder road. Sometimes you have to travel the "articles" path in order to get there. There are no guarantees.



garza said:


> Don't get me wrong. There's a lot of effort involved and at the start a total lack of security. There were some hungry days during my first year out of university, but after that I was established.
> 
> You can go look for a job and have security until they fire you, or you can put everything into writing and build a reputation that will ensure you can pay the rent and buy the groceries until you are too old to reach the keyboard.
> 
> It's important to pick the right place to do your writing. These days I would recommend Afghanistan or almost anywhere in the Mid-East. Somalia's another good spot. Or pick out the latest hotspot you hear about on the news and go there.



As above. Writing fiction for a living is far chancier-the ceiling is so much higher but the ground floor is a sub-basement with no heat and a heap of HUNGRY. And the approach is completely different. My advice if you're any good and must write fiction is to crank out YA or faux-medieval fantasy until you retch. Then run for the bank and write what you wanna.


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## muddy13001 (Jan 15, 2013)

Morkonan said:


> You're already halfway there. The problem is, as I see it with the scant information I have at the moment, that you perceive a difference between writing as a class assignment and writing as a career. There isn't a difference. Well, I suppose there is one - You can get paid for doing one and must pay to do the other. Sometimes, that gets a bit confusing when you're not getting paid either way...
> 
> I think you may like to write, but you may have trouble coming up with sufficient motivation. Exercising is like that... Most people like to play competitive games and some of those involved physical activity. So, we get a workout playing tennis, football, basketball, volleyball or even bowling and have a lot of fun. But, put a treadmill in front of us or some weights for us to lift and we have trouble deciding whether or not to dedicate the same amount of calories to exercising for the sake of our health that we would for the enjoyment of a game.
> 
> ...



I'm felling everything you said, and motivation is the thing that is holding me back. I get it every now and again, but those times are so far apart.


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## Man From Mars (Jan 15, 2013)

Motivation, the problem of the carrot and the stick. Reward and punishment.

When we humans don't have either, we tend to sit idle.

I'm in a similar position as you, and I think most other writers here either feel the same way, or have felt the same way before. When we don't have anyone cheering us on, when we don't have anyone holding our feet to the fire, we lose the drive to work. We get lost. Sure, writing might be enjoyable in and of itself, but getting praise is also nice, and a far greater reward for some of us. Without such things, and I hope I'm not speaking only for myself, we find better things to do with our time, not necessarily what's best for us as an artist, or as a writer.

You could try to make the writing itself the reward. For some people, that is enough. Or you can seek out motivation from another source outside yourself in the form of positive feedback. It can come from fans or other people following you. This community is positive, encouraging place to find it. In any case, if you're looking for some motivation, and can't do it internally, find outlets that reward your writing externally.


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## Morkonan (Jan 15, 2013)

muddy13001 said:


> I'm felling everything you said, and motivation is the thing that is holding me back. I get it every now and again, but those times are so far apart.



Culture that motivation!

So, you're having trouble motivating yourself to write, though you do get "into it" on occasion,right? What you need to do is add some external motivations. For instance, set a goal for yourself and then reward yourself with something else you like to do. You can set a word-count goal and then go out and buy a video game once you reach it or something. Maybe grab a Starbuck's coffee or an ice-cream cone f you're not into gaming? Later, when you're ready, reward your achieved word count by purchasing yourself a new pen (a nice one) and a nice notebook. Nothing too expensive on the notebook, though. Focus on the pen as the big reward and take time in picking one out. Use this pen for whatever you'd normally use the pen for during the day, but focus on using it to jot down story notes when the muse strikes you.  (I keep my "special pen" in my laptop bag with a couple of spiral notebooks.  ) 

The objective here is to eventually start rewarding yourself with things that lend themselves towards supporting your desired goal. Someone interested in weight loss might reward their achieved weight goal by buying themselves a new gym bag or tennis racket. See how that works? But, for you, right now, start off with rewarding your achieved word count with things that are outside writing, if you find rewards focused on writing not as desirable. Later, start upping the ante, but still set aside rewards that have nothing at all to do with writing. By randomly distributing those types of rewards, you'll be more effective at reward-based self-motivation.

Here's some motivation - During your next scheduled writing session (that means you'll have to schedule one, btw ) you are to write 500 words of creative fiction. (This post is 335 words or so, at this moment. It's not a difficult goal.) You must complete that task. Just think up anything and write about it. Take a character and a situation and then start writing. It doesn't have to be good, but it does have to be "readable" and it does have to make sense. Once you are done, you may reward yourself with a small reward. Think of something that isn't too difficult to obtain, but that you'd enjoy, anyway. For instance, don't visit your favorite website until you have completed those 500 words. Or, go make yourself a milkshake once you're done. The choice is yours. (Don't reward yourself often with food, there are already too many fat authors out there. Writers don't get enough exercise as a general rule.) Later, only start rewarding yourself once you have completed several writing sessions or larger word-counts. But, no matter what, always think of a constructive way to reward yourself for achieving your desired word-count goal. You can also reward your "practice sessions" as well. Rewards don't have to be only for those sessions when you work on a targeted goal, like a novel or a particular story. You can just practice writing descriptions of scenes, dialogue, plot outlines, pacing, etc... Whatever. You'll need these sorts of practice sessions and they will contribute towards mastering the art of writing.

The point is - Culture your motivation by rewarding the efforts you put forth that help you reach your desired goal. You can do this with any desired goal, should you find yourself lacking in motivation.


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## Capulet (Jan 16, 2013)

Cadence said:


> Redefine the term 'writer'. The fact you wrote that post makes you a writer.



Writing a post does not make one a writer. This debate has been done to death and I'm certainly not in the "writers get paid to write" camp, BUT.

To tie it into the context of the original question: if you've found joy in some form of writing, find out what it was. If you enjoyed the challenge of writing to a deadline, which is the only criterion you were being held to, then as suggested before hit the prompts or competitions. Professions you may enjoy in writing could include being a copy writer or technical writer.

if you enjoy fanfic go for that and keep it a hobby. Whatever floats your boat. BUT, if you want to be a _writer_ and get serious, learn the craft. It's not just throwing up words on a page. A professional of any craft takes direct control of the creation process, adjusting variables to move towards a specific end result. This is why you can have very creative, crappy writers. They have imagination, they just haven't learned the craft. The opposite holds true as well. You have some very talented writers with very little imagination. Look up Anne Coulter as an example.

Anyway, decide where you want to be. If it makes you happy, do it. If not, don't.


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## garza (Jan 16, 2013)

You might point to me as a better example of a craftsman with no imagination. I must be a pretty good writer. Writing, along with photography directly associated with my writing, has been my sole means of support for nearly sixty years. Almost none of it has been fiction. News reports for radio, TV and, most of all, newspaper, along with magazine articles and document production for NGOs and Government agencies, you name it, and if you can call it non-fiction, I've written it, but I've written next to nothing you can call fiction because of that lack of imagination. There have been those who say my reports about the Prime Minister's budget speeches are fiction, but I point out that I don't write the speeches - that's mostly the job of the CabSec - I only report on them.

The good fiction writer is both craftsman and artist. I lay no claim to being an artist, so when I try to write fiction it comes out sounding like the six o'clock news.


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## Ariel (Jan 16, 2013)

That's an interesting distinction, Garza.  I took one journalism class in high school.  My teacher asked me to never go into journalism because I was "too creative."


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## Kyle R (Jan 16, 2013)

Being a successful, published fiction writer is a hard thing to accomplish.

But so is being a professional athlete.

So is being a professional artist. So is being a professional dancer. So is being a professional musician.

But there are people all over the world who do such things, and make a living at it.

What separates them from those who didn't make it? In my opinion, the main factor is persistence. Determination. How much you put into it. That's what separates the men from the boys (or the women from the girls), so to speak.

If you want to be a writer, you have to push through those times when you feel unmotivated or full of self-doubt. I guarantee a large portion of today's successful writers went through the same thing you're feeling now. But they didn't let it stop them.

The others did.

Decide which type of person you want to be. :encouragement:


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## moderan (Jan 16, 2013)

Yeah, of course, hard work is all you need. Dumb luck has nothing whatsoever to do with it. That's why there are writers here that are as good as consistently publishing professionals (at least) and aren't rolling in the riches. Must be laziness.


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## Nee (Jan 16, 2013)

moderan said:


> That's why there are writers here that are as good as consistently publishing professionals



Which is where the pool of ghost writers come from.


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## dolphinlee (Jan 16, 2013)

moderan said:


> Yeah, of course, hard work is all you need. Dumb luck has nothing whatsoever to do with it. That's why there are writers here that are as good as consistently publishing professionals (at least) and aren't rolling in the riches. Must be laziness.



Luck????

You work hard to write your book.

You work hard to research publishers.

You work hard to send out correctly composed letters/summaries/x double-spaced pages. 

You work hard to keep your chin up when the rejections come in.

You work hard to find out what isn't right about the book. 

You work hard for your dream.

You keep going until you get published or you give up.

What's luck got to do with it.  Is there some magic publishing fairy out there? A special incantation? A special area in a London train station that you go to to post your submissions?

If I don't get my book published, I am not going to stand there saying I was unlucky. I am going to say I tried everything I could think of and it didn't work. I could not get anyone interested in my book.


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## Nee (Jan 16, 2013)

You need a good agent to get a good contract. You need the industry to be in a favorable mood for the kind of story you are pushing for publication. You need the public to recognize that your novel is something they want to read now, instead of reading it 2 or 3 years from now when for lack of sales they have discontinued the printing run. 

Despite all the really hard work that needs to be done to get your novel into the best-seller lists, there is still a good deal of luck that comes into it also.


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## JosephB (Jan 16, 2013)

Ask anyone who's successful at anything if luck had anything to do with it. If he has his ego half-way in check, he'll probably say yes. Right place, right time and all that. I don't think getting published is some special thing where that doesn't apply.


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## Baron (Jan 16, 2013)

A combination of hard work and providence is good.  Bribery generally works better.


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## Lewdog (Jan 16, 2013)

The best way to motivate yourself as a writer is to get a tent, find somewhere that a bunch of homeless people live, and eat nothing but beans, rice, and ramen noodles for about 3 months.  After an experience like that you'll be more than motivated to decide if you want to be a writer or get a regular job.


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## moderan (Jan 16, 2013)

Baron said:


> A combination of hard work and providence is good.  Bribery generally works better.


If one is able to apply that special talent, then the hard work of writing is probably unnecessary. I do so like plain brown envelopes though.


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## Baron (Jan 16, 2013)

moderan said:


> If one is able to apply that special talent, then the hard work is writing is probably unnecessary. I do so like plain brown envelopes though.


No worries - and a brown paper bag filled with rabbit food too.


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## garza (Jan 16, 2013)

Ever notice that rabbit food looks the same going in?

You need a reputation, some standing, to get a good agent. Only second-rate agents take on second-rate writers.

A belief in yourself as the best there is and a refusal to accept 'no' as an answer is essential. Doors are there to be opened, or kicked in if need be. 

Luck is very important. The harder one works, the luckier one gets. I don't know if that's true with jobs. I've never had one, but it's sure true when your livelihood depends on writing copy that people will buy.

Being in the right place at the right time is essential. Viet Nam in '61 was the perfect place to be. Most people hadn't realised at that time that a real war was underway. If you are thinking that was the perfect place only for journalists, consider some of the songs, novels, and movies that came out of the Viet Nam experience.

When I was ten years old and one of my teachers called me an 'arrogant little snot' she maybe didn't realise she was defining my character and pointing out my greatest talent.


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## moderan (Jan 16, 2013)

Baron said:


> No worries - and a brown paper bag filled with rabbit food too.


They prefer aphorisms.


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## Nee (Jan 16, 2013)

@ Garza
Being an arrogant little snot is your greatest talent....hmm, ever think about going into politics?


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## Baron (Jan 16, 2013)

moderan said:


> They prefer aphorisms.


I'll send them a volume of Oscar Wilde quotes.


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## Capulet (Jan 16, 2013)

amsawtell said:


> That's an interesting distinction, Garza.  I took one journalism class in high school.  My teacher asked me to never go into journalism because I was "too creative."



1. Memorize image.




2. Print of card that says "Press" and staple it to your hat.

You are now a journalist.


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## garza (Jan 16, 2013)

Capulet! Please! Now you've given away the whole game! Now what excuse will all those journalism majors have for spending four years at university?

Nee - No, I've never wanted to be a politician. It's much more fun standing on the outside, poking at them through the bars of their cages.


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## Kyle R (Jan 16, 2013)

I've always held the opinion that "luck", in the context of this conversation, is a term used by those who don't realize or appreciate all the work that went into making the act possible.

If there is such a thing as luck, I'd say it comes to those who put constantly put themselves in the most favorable positions to attain it (in other words, those who work harder at it than the others.)

It's a trait shared by many of the great athletes--that drive that pushes them to spent six to eight hours on the practice court while everyone else only practices for four.

Yes, "dumb luck" may play a role, but if you work hard enough, I believe luck becomes irrelevant.


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## Terry D (Jan 16, 2013)

KyleColorado said:


> I've always held the opinion that "luck", in the context of this conversation, is a term used by those who don't realize or appreciate all the work that went into making the act possible.
> 
> If there is such a thing as luck, I'd say it comes to those who put constantly put themselves in the most favorable positions to attain it (in other words, those who work harder at it than the others.)
> 
> ...



Louis Pasteur said; "Chances favors the prepared mind."  Luck happens, but it happens more frequently to those who work hard.


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## Leyline (Jan 16, 2013)

LMFAO!

Sorry.

You either write or you don't. There's no friggin' 'wanna be' about it.


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## garza (Jan 16, 2013)

Luck is never irrelevant. 

I know I said a couple of posts up that the harder you work at writing, the luckier you get, but 'dumb luck' also plays a part. Luck, not any particular skill, kept me alive through wars and revolutions, firefights and riots, and a few scary face-to-face threats. Luck guided my hand when I chose at random an agent to call. We were together more than 20 years and we both profited from the relationship. He knew how to meet all the right people, and I knew how to write what the right people wanted. I've always been lucky.  

So work as hard as you can, but don't say luck plays no part.


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## shadowwalker (Jan 16, 2013)

Of course luck plays a part. Luck is being among the first who write the "trend novel"; luck is getting the agent who hasn't just signed another book very similar to yours; luck is your query letter being the first good one the agent has read that day.

Any career/profession/venture is a combination of hard work and luck. Ask anyone who's gone into business for themselves. Heck, ask any farmer...


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## Nee (Jan 16, 2013)

KyleColorado said:


> I've always held the opinion that "luck", in the context of this conversation, is a term used by those who don't realize or appreciate all the work that went into making the act possible.
> 
> If there is such a thing as luck, I'd say it comes to those who put constantly put themselves in the most favorable positions to attain it (in other words, those who work harder at it than the others.)
> 
> ...




Does this belief extend to natural selection...? Or, does this only go for the arts?


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## moderan (Jan 16, 2013)

Baron said:


> I'll send them a volume of Oscar Wilde quotes.


They'll eat it up.


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## Baron (Jan 17, 2013)

moderan said:


> They'll eat it up.


With relish I hope.


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## moderan (Jan 17, 2013)

Baron said:


> With relish I hope.


They haven't yet mustered an appreciation for that particular condiment.


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## Lewdog (Jan 17, 2013)

I prefer dill relish instead of sweet relish.


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## moderan (Jan 17, 2013)

[ot]Relish is only good for hot dogs and tartar sauce. I prefer sweet.[/ot]


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## Morkonan (Jan 17, 2013)

shadowwalker said:


> Of course luck plays a part. Luck is being among the first who write the "trend novel"; luck is getting the agent who hasn't just signed another book very similar to yours; luck is your query letter being the first good one the agent has read that day.
> 
> Any career/profession/venture is a combination of hard work and luck. Ask anyone who's gone into business for themselves. Heck, ask any farmer...



Absolutely!

But, I'd add that luck is often created, as well. You can enhance your chances of being lucky by setting the stage appropriately, learning how to write well, planning business ventures with some sense and planting your crops in the right season. Luck is often not random, but is the result of hard work. Yet, some people get lucky, despite their apparent lack of what anyone else would consider to be skill, planning or appropriate timing. Those who are so fortunate rarely get "lucky" a second time.


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## Capulet (Jan 17, 2013)

Luck by definition is something based on chance, and thus you can't control it, nor 'make' it. You can open yourself up to maximizing your payout when luck comes your way though.

Think of it as having a sufficient stake at the poker table so that when you hit with a good hand, you can bet in a way to maximize your take. As a writer, your table stakes are determined by the quantity of quality work you have available, or having developed the skill to create it if you're lucky enough to receive a (paying) prompt.

To put it into context, say you've submitted a novel to a publisher and you're lucky enough to make it out of the slush pile. You've written a zombie novel and, lucky day, that's exactly what they're looking for. The reader continues through your sample and wants to see more. You've actually put in the time to have more chapters, if not the whole book, written out and edited in a way that catches their attention on further reading. It sure was lucky to get that opportunity, but your hard work is what closed the deal and maximized the reward.


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## Lewdog (Jan 17, 2013)

moderan said:


> [ot]Relish is only good for hot dogs and tartar sauce. I prefer sweet.[/ot]



Relish is good for egg salad, chicken salad, and tuna salad.  Now sometimes I prefer to make the type of chicken salad that has grapes, apples, and walnuts in it too.


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## moderan (Jan 17, 2013)

[ot]'tisn't. Nothing is good for tuna salad. And I don't stay at the Waldorf.[/ot]


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## JosephB (Jan 17, 2013)

Capulet said:


> Luck by definition is something based on chance, and thus you can't control it, nor 'make' it. You can open yourself up to maximizing your payout when luck comes your way though.



Exactly. I was at a party -- bored and tired of small talk -- so I stepped out on the deck. There was another guy out there for the same reason. After some silence he asked me what I did -- I question I usually don't ask, but oh well. Anyway, that conversation kicked off a chain of events that pretty much made my career and put me way ahead of most of my contemporaries with the same experience. Of course, if my portfolio hadn't been up to his standards or if I'd lacked the good recommendations from other clients, that would have been the end of it. Otherwise, it was pure luck -- if I'd told my wife I wanted to leave, none of it would have happened.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Jan 17, 2013)

JosephB said:


> Exactly. I was at a party -- bored and tired of small talk -- so I stepped out on the deck. There was another guy out there for the same reason. After some silence he asked me what I did -- I question I usually don't ask, but oh well. Anyway, that conversation kicked off a chain of events that pretty much made my career and put me way ahead of most of my contemporaries with the same experience. Of course, if my portfolio hadn't been up to his standards or if I'd lacked the good recommendations from other clients, that would have been the end of it. Otherwise, it was pure luck -- if I'd told my wife I wanted to leave, none of it would have happened.


Ah, but Mr. Draper*, if you weren't decent at making chit chat with other party escapees, this luck wouldn't have come to you. Networking is work, too, which is something people who are good at it don't always recognize. Personally I am pretty lame at that stuff. 

Note that I'm not criticizing or saying it's unfair -- all other things being equal, of course people would rather work with someone they can talk to, or who they like personally. In writing as in business, I suspect.

*your anecdote almost exactly matches something that happens in _Mad Men_


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## Lewdog (Jan 17, 2013)

Oh yes, Networking and being in the right place at the right time is the absolute key to getting your stuff out there.  If you meet the right person they can MAKE your career.  Why do you think so many people live in New York and Los Angeles working crappy jobs?  In their free time they try to get into parties and places where they might meet the right person.


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## JosephB (Jan 17, 2013)

lasm said:


> Ah, but Mr. Draper*, if you weren't decent at making  chit chat with other party escapees, this luck wouldn't have come to  you. Networking is work, too, which is something people who are good at  it don't always recognize. Personally I am pretty lame at that stuff.
> 
> Note that I'm not criticizing or saying it's unfair -- all other things  being equal, of course people would rather work with someone they can  talk to, or who they like personally. In writing as in business, I  suspect.
> 
> *your anecdote almost exactly matches something that happens in _Mad Men_



Heh. I realize the importance of networking. But he asked me what I did -- that's not networking. And when I answered, I wasn't exactly gung ho, just polite. We were into the conversation before it became evident that maybe I could do something for him -- then I turned on the schmooze. The luck part is that I walked out on to the deck in the first place.

P.S. -- Yep, that's Mad Men like. One of my favorite shows.


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## garza (Jan 17, 2013)

For my take on 'networking' see 'The Writer', which should still be in the archives. I posted it in Fiction because it's a summary of half a dozen conversations I had on the subject many years ago and not the record of any particular conversation.


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## Lewdog (Jan 17, 2013)

garza said:


> For my take on 'networking' see 'The Writer', which should still be in the archives. I posted it in Fiction because it's a summary of half a dozen conversations I had on the subject many years ago and not the record of any particular conversation.




Did you ever do any sports reporting?  Have you ever met Peter King?  How about Rick Riely?  Peter King graduated from Ohio University and worked in Cincinnati for awhile, but once he got fired and moved on he had talked bad about Cincinnati ever since.  I can't say the words I would describe him with.


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## Loulou (Jan 18, 2013)

muddy13001 said:


> I remember the first time I enjoyed writing. It was my last writing assignment in English class on the last year of middle school. The assignment was to write a story, that's it, no format to follow. I was loving it and got an A. My teacher told me that I have the best paper in that class and in all of is other classes too, I was feeling good when I heard that. All through high school was loving the writing assignment that did't have a format and always got an A. But when I try to write at home I don't get that feeling all time, and I hate it. I felt like I finally found what I wanted to do for a living, now I don't know. Would love to hear other peoples opinion about this. Thank you.



Unless the writing itself is a reward (as in you love it, can't not do it) I really wouldn't even consider writing as any sort of a career.  Except for journalism or maybe teaching it, writing is not something you'll make much (if any) money out of, unless you are one of the very, very rare and lucky ones who has a few successful novels published, and the people who've achieved that will have inevitably been working at it a long time, for very little, and had hundreds of rejections.  If I sound negative, I don't mean to be.  But it's the truth.  I'm forty-two and after writing about thirty-five short stories, two and a half plays, three novels, and maybe a thousand newspaper columns/travel pieces, I am only perhaps beginning to see some success (as in I have an agent now) but I've still made very little money from writing.  All that said, there is nothing I love more.  Nothing else I want to do.  Nothing.  So unless you also feel that way about writing, I'd perhaps search for what you _do_ love doing, and follow that.  Good luck.


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## dolphinlee (Jan 18, 2013)

garza said:


> For my take on 'networking' see 'The Writer', which should still be in the archives. I posted it in Fiction because it's a summary of half a dozen conversations I had on the subject many years ago and not the record of any particular conversation.



http://www.writingforums.com/fiction/130890-writer.html


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## JosephB (Jan 18, 2013)

There are probably a few successful authors out there who didn’t work all that hard but they got really lucky. That’s what I’m banking on.


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## garza (Jan 18, 2013)

Lewdog - I've never covered sports, and, no, I've never met King or Riely. They are of another generation. I know of King from his writing for Sports Illustrated. I am originally from Mississippi, and that's the only part of the U.S. where I was ever active as a news reporter, though very little of what I wrote was ever published in Mississippi except during my teen years in the fifties. In the sixties I was branded as a turncoat, traitor, scalawag, and awarded several other titles by such people as Gov. Ross Barnett and 'Jackson Jimmy' Ward, editor of the Jackson Daily News and champion of segregation.


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## moderan (Jan 18, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> Did you ever do any sports reporting?  Have you ever met Peter King?  How about Rick Riely?  Peter King graduated from Ohio University and worked in Cincinnati for awhile, but once he got fired and moved on he had talked bad about Cincinnati ever since.  I can't say the words I would describe him with.


  "Hack" would be apt, in both cases. Also, "insufferable blowhard" and "possesses inflated sense of self-importance". I've met both "gentlemen". There are scads of better sportswriters toiling away at blogs near you. Try "Grantland" or some of the SportsNation sites. And it's Rick _Reilly_. Sportswriting today is more about the hero worship on the part of the fans and the proximity of reporters to those heroes than any specialized communications ability, excepting hockey announcers who can actually explain "icing".


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## Lewdog (Jan 18, 2013)

moderan said:


> "Hack" would be apt, in both cases. Also, "insufferable blowhard" and "possesses inflated sense of self-importance". I've met both "gentlemen". There are scads of better sportswriters toiling away at blogs near you. Try "Grantland" or some of the SportsNation sites. And it's Rick _Reilly_. Sportswriting today is more about the hero worship on the part of the fans and the proximity of reporters to those heroes than any specialized communications ability, excepting hockey announcers who can actually explain "icing".



I can't stand Peter King, and Rick Reilly is nothing more than an opinion writer.  I like Mitch Albom who wrote the book, "The Five People You Meet in Heaven."  I think they made a movie about it starring John Voight.  I think I watched it on tv.  

I'm not a big hockey fan though I used to like the Red Wings when they had a bunch of thugs and Steve Yzerman, Bob Probert, Nicolas Lindstrom, and others.  

Icing is just when a guy on offense goes past the red line when the puck isn't already in the zone right?


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## moderan (Jan 18, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> I can't stand Peter King, and Rick Reilly is nothing more than an opinion writer.  I like Mitch Albom who wrote the book, "The Five People You Meet in Heaven."  I think they made a movie about it starring John Voight.  I think I watched it on tv.
> 
> I'm not a big hockey fan though I used to like the Red Wings when they had a bunch of thugs and Steve Yzerman, Bob Probert, Nicolas Lindstrom, and others.
> 
> Icing is just when a guy on offense goes past the red line when the puck isn't already in the zone right?


Hate the Red Wings. I am a lifelong BlackHawks fan. Bob Probert played for both teams. That's offsides. Icing is when the puck precedes the offensive player into the offensive ice by more than one zone, i.e., from past the red line and the blue line to the end boards. The only time that is legal is when you're on the penalty kill.
Rick Telander used to be a good sportswriter until he commenced reading his press clippings. Frank DeFord has done some good things. Otherwise, the basement of sportswriting talent has gotten lower and lower as those who occupy the penthouse are held to lesser and lesser standards. Some sports bloggers are very good, though. Al Yellon, who runs the Cub fansite Bleed Cubbie Blue, has a good line in game re-creations and exhibits a general knowledge of and disposition to use the apparatus of good writing in general. There are others but I was just reading some of his stuff. Grantland has a very high standard. I read SI and ESPN the Magazine at my doctors' offices when I forget my Kindle. They're rags.


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## Lewdog (Jan 18, 2013)

I really wanted to be a sports writer.  A friend of mine and me did a college visit in high School to Butler University.  At the time it was under construction and it looked like it was going to be pretty awesome.  The problem was it cost $16,000 a year there and it was out of state.  That meant I couldn't get Ohio school grants to go there.  My federal students loans and grants couldn't cover it all and I couldn't afford to pay what was left over.  Unfortunately I didn't get a scholarship there.  My buddy somehow worked it out that he could go there and is now a writer.  I got a full ride to The Ohio State University, but unfortunately because of some stuff that happened I was only there a year and a half.  My cousin went there too, he didn't graduate, but at 40 years old he went back to school at Wright State University and got a degree and is now working on his PHd and doing stem cell research.  I hadn't talked to him in ages because of a falling out but we talked last night for probably 2 hours.  We used to be best friends.


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## moderan (Jan 18, 2013)

I've done heaps of sportswriting. High school, community college, college, various suburban newspapers, some majors, a little blogging. When I was fifteen, I wanted to be a combination of Grantland Rice, Hunter Thompson, and Jim Bouton. I found that I enjoyed writing about sports that didn't hold my interest (soccer, basketball) but that there wasn't enough gainful employment in any avenues that such desires would lead to.
Science fiction actually paid better, at that time. So did the nascent gaming industry. I wrote Call of Cthulhu scenarios and spun those off into short stories. Also had a line in combo fanfics (The Enterprise encounters the Ringworld, for example) and a thriving cottage industry in PG filk. I wrote high school playlets and college radio dramas. And a helluva lotta songs and poems and some ads.
Which is all to say-don't specialize. Writing isn't like that.


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## garza (Jan 18, 2013)

Sportswriting is the one kind of writing I never considered. First, I'm not a big sports fan. Basketball and what's called 'football' in North America bore me. I played sandlot baseball as a kid and when I came to Belize I became a football fan, but I've never had any interest in writing about any sport. War, politics, economics, civil strife, revolutions, disasters - those are the topics I personally find worth writing about.


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## Lewdog (Jan 18, 2013)

I could write about anything.  I'm the type of person if you start to talk to me about something and I don't much about it, I start to research the hell out of it until I have enough knowledge that I can hold a good conversation.  I hate being dumbfounded.


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## garza (Jan 18, 2013)

Doesn't bother me. 

If the subject piques my interest, then I'll go read up. Otherwise, not.


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