# Disappointment



## musichal (Jul 21, 2015)

I haven't read any Fantasy novels since the Hobbit, and LOTR - way before the films - and I have no idea who writes well.  Googling led me to Game of Thrones due to repeated comparisons with Tolkien, so I ordered the current 5-book set for Kindle for twenty bucks.  I've never seen the GOT TV series and had only been vaguely aware of the title, which I had thought a video game.  Yes, I obviously have my finger very firmly on the pulse of contemporary culture.

The writing seems sub-par to me;  no Tolkien imo.  I think the author needs to meet someone with a red pen.

However, I don't want to incite either a hate-fest or defensive debate.  So note the 'imo' and the 'I think' above;  I have made no proclamation, merely stated opinion.

My question is simple:  What do you recommend for a _well-written_ fantasy novel?


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## Boofy (Jul 21, 2015)

The Book of The New Sun, by Gene Wolfe, is a tetralogy I can't recommend more highly. Personally, I really love A Song of Ice and Fire, though at times the books dragged in the character perspectives I was less interested in reading about. There's an awful lot of fluff there, aye, but I can't help loving them all the same. I came to see what all the fuss was about, but I stayed for Tyrion... rawr. /swoon


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## Crowley K. Jarvis (Jul 21, 2015)

I love the Wheel of Time series. Of course, it's absolutely huge.


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## Kepharel (Jul 21, 2015)

Fantasy is the imagining of impossible or improbable things..or so the first entry in the search engine told me.  I think it is a genre that must keep re-inventing itself. Did Sir Thomas Mallory know that Le Morte D'Arthur was fantasy in the way we understand it: Was his the same mindset as Marion Zimmer when she wrote Avalon? (a CoF rewrite of Mallory?) So what is the real thing? Should something that is regarded as "sub Tolkien" be dismissed as not in itself a  worthy contribution to Fantasy.  Best go back to peeps like Homer and Mallory to find the roots of Fantasy, but maybe not regard the modern take as being necessarily dismissed at source.  Fantasy or thriller there is always a good guy and a bad guy but for fantasy its not slogging it out in Milton Keynes. Rather in a near future dystopia or imaginary castles with moats.


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## ShadowEyes (Jul 21, 2015)

_Howl's Moving Castle _-- Diana Wynne Jones

Okay, I'll blurb the story a little bit. I've found that the story is dense so that there is no filler. It has a tight plot with multiple twists, humorous characters, and imaginative, episodic scenes. I've only read it twice, but I still haven't picked everything out from the plot:  the foreshadowing or its complexity. It drags a bit at times, but I always felt like those parts were important.

I find children's lit to be the better side of fantasy nowadays.


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## Olly Buckle (Jul 21, 2015)

'Rivers of London' by Ben Aaranovitch. Knowing London well probably helped me appreciate it, but it was original and you wouldn't be at a disadvantage not knowing London. Well plotted, fun and fast.


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## musichal (Jul 21, 2015)

Kepharel said:


> Fantasy is the imagining of impossible or improbable things..or so the first entry in the search engine told me.  I think it is a genre that must keep re-inventing itself. Did Sir Thomas Mallory know that Le Morte D'Arthur was fantasy in the way we understand it: Was his the same mindset as Marion Zimmer when she wrote Avalon? (a CoF rewrite of Mallory?) So what is the real thing? Should something that is regarded as "sub Tolkien" be dismissed as not in itself a  worthy contribution to Fantasy.  Best go back to peeps like Homer and Mallory to find the roots of Fantasy, but maybe not regard the modern take as being necessarily dismissed at source.  Fantasy or thriller there is always a good guy and a bad guy but for fantasy its not slogging it out in Milton Keynes. Rather in a near future dystopia or imaginary castles with moats.



My problem lies not in the definition or history of the genre, nor in plot, but in the low quality of the writing itself, which is self-evident by any objective assessment, in my opinion.  So _*well-written *_recommendations are key here.


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## Allysan (Jul 21, 2015)

When I first started reading game of thrones, I didn't make it through the first chapter before putting it down. Upon watching the first season, I decided to pick it back up in audiobook form. It is absolutely the only instance ever where I have enjoyed a show/movie more than the books. Don't get me wrong, I did enjoy the books and will continue to follow them!


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## Allysan (Jul 21, 2015)

And my fantasy tastes tend to lean towards YA ... Guilty pleasure. I really enjoyed the Grisha trilogy by Leigh bardugo and His Fair Assassin trilogy by Robin Lafevers.  But my definition of well written probably differs.


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## Kepharel (Jul 21, 2015)

musichal said:


> My problem lies not in the definition or history of the genre, nor in plot, but in the low quality of the writing itself, which is self-evident by any objective assessment, in my opinion.  So _*well-written *_recommendations are key here.



Self evident objectivity assumes a lot of things. Fans of Game of Thrones would not recognise the term "self evident" as a truth when it occurs in the same sentence as objectivity.  Their truth is only as subjective as yours.  If you don't like Game of Thrones because you think it is poorly written, the objectivity only applies,and stops with you, and only you. It's your point of view. Don't cast your net to include the rest of the shoal.  As a matter of fact I think it is rubbish too but I would never expand my personal evaluation into a generality and a self evident objective truth.


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## Kyle R (Jul 21, 2015)

Skilled fantasy authors? Try *Neil Gaiman* and *Jeff Vandermeer*, to name a few. :encouragement:


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## ShadowEyes (Jul 21, 2015)

Kyle R said:


> Skilled fantasy authors? Try *Neil Gaiman* and *Jeff Vandermeer*, to name a few. :encouragement:



What are your favorite works from these authors?


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## TKent (Jul 21, 2015)

I have just started reading Annihilation by Jeff Vandermeer and it is very good so far! I've also read a ton of his short stories (I have his secret life anthology and the story SECRET LIFE is one of the weirdest, most amazing stories I have ever read. Seriously! But all of his stories are weird and cool. 




ShadowEyes said:


> What are your favorite works from these authors?


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## ShadowEyes (Jul 21, 2015)

TKent said:


> I have just started reading Annihilation by Jeff Vandermeer and it is very good so far! I've also read a ton of his short stories (I have his secret life anthology and the story SECRET LIFE is one of the weirdest, most amazing stories I have ever read. Seriously! But all of his stories are weird and cool.



Ooo, it won the 2015 Nebula award. If I wasn't swamped with books already, I might've tickled one out of the library. But alas, I am swamped in books, and my horse is drowneded.


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## Olly Buckle (Jul 22, 2015)

Kyle R said:


> Skilled fantasy authors? Try *Neil Gaiman* and *Jeff Vandermeer*, to name a few. :encouragement:



I read Neil Gaiman's 'Neverwhere' recently as well as 'Rivers of London'  mentioned above. some ways they are very similar; both based on London for example, both with an 'ordinary fellow' finding himself involved in the fantastic; Gaiman I felt probably had the edge as a writer, Aaranovitch for pure inventiveness and originality. both were good.


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## musichal (Jul 22, 2015)

Kepharel said:


> Self evident objectivity assumes a lot of things. Fans of Game of Thrones would not recognise the term "self evident" as a truth when it occurs in the same sentence as objectivity.  Their truth is only as subjective as yours.  If you don't like Game of Thrones because you think it is poorly written, the objectivity only applies,and stops with you, and only you. It's your point of view. Don't cast your net to include the rest of the shoal.  As a matter of fact I think it is rubbish too but I would never expand my personal evaluation into a generality and a self evident objective truth.



Good point.  The problem is one can go through any chapter and cite so many issues that at some point even the staunchest defender would be forced to resort to the story and plot as the author's strengths, which is fine - and which I have not criticized.


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## Kepharel (Jul 22, 2015)

Thank you Musichal!

Your thread sent me on a tangent to find really bad Fantasy and I came up with this.  It's brilliant!

http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/susan/sf/eyeargon/eyeargon.htm

You can buy it hardback on Amazon but it costs a lot of money...the link above is a read for free.


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## musichal (Jul 22, 2015)

Are you certain it wasn't one of Jake's stories from our bad writing thread?  Too funny... Laughed so hard it hurt - really.


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## qwertyman (Jul 22, 2015)

Kepharel said:


> ... As a matter of fact I think it is rubbish too but I would never expand my personal evaluation into a generality and a self evident objective truth.



I do it all the time.  You don't know what your missing.


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## Jenwales (Jul 22, 2015)

Well written? George R.R.Martin is a brilliant writer, he writes action and great dialogue. I think you just want a long winded fantasy novel with a lot of description. I'm not a fantasy fan but I love the song of ice and fire because it's seems more like historical fiction than fantasy as most fantasy I've read is just elves and magic and I'm not a fan of that (Love LOTRs though)
I couldn't get into the wheel of time- too much waffling. 
I recommened Annihilation, it's brilliant.
I guess I'm not really a fantasy fan and I really don't see whats wrong with a song of ice and fire and since I love the books I'd rather not know and it be spoilt. Please don't ruin them for me, they are epic.


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## TKent (Jul 22, 2015)

Wow! Had not realized Annihilation won the Nebula!! That is SOOOO cool!!


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## joshybo (Jul 22, 2015)

Kyle R said:


> Skilled fantasy authors? Try *Neil Gaiman* and *Jeff Vandermeer*, to name a few. :encouragement:



Neil Gaiman's is my personal favorite.  American Gods is incredible.  Smoke and Mirrors is a short-story collection which I enjoyed.  You also have Good Omens by him and the late Terry Pratchett.  And while it doesn't get as much discussions as it deserves, his Sandman graphic novel series is huge and has some of the the best writing and most immersing plots you will find in the comic realm.  It's in a different league in the comic world, the same as Alan Moore with his works like V for Vendetta and The Watchmen.


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## ShadowEyes (Jul 22, 2015)

joshybo said:


> ...his Sandman graphic novel series is huge and has some of the the best writing and most immersing plots you will find in the comic realm.  It's in a different league in the comic world, the same as Alan Moore with his works like V for Vendetta and The Watchmen.



I've only ever read _Coraline_ and _The Ocean at the End of the Lane_.

In regards to graphic novels, I thought _Books of Magic _was only okay. My favorite part about it was that he mentioned Diana Wynne Jones. I read _Prelude_ in the Sandman series, but it was too violent for my tastes. And I was really excited to get through it because I know he based a character on G.K. Chesterton. _Watchmen_ really requires multiple reads, and as I read it all in one sitting, I doubt I got it all. But I _KNOW_​ I got a headache.


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## musichal (Jul 22, 2015)

Jenwales said:


> Well written? George R.R.Martin is a brilliant writer, he writes action and great dialogue. I think you just want a long winded fantasy novel with a lot of description. I'm not a fantasy fan but I love the song of ice and fire because it's seems more like historical fiction than fantasy as most fantasy I've read is just elves and magic and I'm not a fan of that (Love LOTRs though)
> I couldn't get into the wheel of time- too much waffling.
> I recommened Annihilation, it's brilliant.
> I guess I'm not really a fantasy fan and I really don't see whats wrong with a song of ice and fire and since I love the books I'd rather not know and it be spoilt. Please don't ruin them for me, they are epic.



Well, I must admit now that I've read a little further, the writing changed.  Like night and day.  It's as if two different writers put their work together.  I went back and looked again... yes, errors galore, awkward phrases and then a sudden change.  Much better now, so I spoke too soon, but still am mystified at how the earlier part passed muster.


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## RJ_Parnell (Jul 23, 2015)

I've read a few fantasy series, but some were quite awhile ago:  Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman's Death Gate books, Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth series, LotR, and Stephen King's Magnum Opus, The Dark Tower series.  
I can't remember much about the Weis-Hickman books, but I don't see it as something I'd recommend. 
I enjoyed Terry Goodkind's story, for the most part, but he really does drone on about nothing and sort of writes in circles, in my opinion.  At times, it reminded me of philosophy class.  Not in the sense that it's deep, but more in the way that he can talk circles around the same point for thirty pages and really not get anywhere.  It's a massive series, ten or eleven books, most of them 200-300k words.  
The Dark Tower series was... interesting.  I actually enjoyed it quite a bit, but it's sort of a complicated fantasy series.  For King fans, it's probably a must.  For those who aren't fans of Mr. King, or are unfamiliar with his novels, it's probably not the best choice.


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## Mesafalcon (Sep 28, 2015)

I wrote one. You can give it a beta read.

215k words, mystery, intrigue, shock, twists, turns, and scenery from mountain to sea.


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