# Are any other writers afraid of the media?



## Charlaux (Oct 3, 2013)

I'm currently writing a YA fantasy/urban fantasy that at some points, the characters appear in a world that the reader could recognise as our own. These characters aren't human, but appear to be so and the distinction is small. I feel that fantasy novels would be lacking without conflict, and though my story is by no means violent (only one actual fight scene in the entire novel which is built up to), one of my characters carries a weapon - specifically a knife. 

In the current media, particularly in the UK, knife crime is understandably a very sensitive subject at the moment, and I'm concerned that having one of my protagonists carry such a weapon could cause offence or worse, parents or potential reviewers to think I condone such a thing. (The weapon is for self-protection and is necessary for his job). I've seen a lot of stories where creative works are blamed for real-world atrocities, and even said to have inspired such acts. 

Am I wrong in thinking that even vampires ripping each others' heads off in Twilight is less of a controversial portrayal of violence than carrying a knife at the moment? Because the violence in Twilight is so unrealistic it seems to slip past notice and criticism, but I worry that this tiny detail could cause a whole world of trouble for me if (yes tiny chance, don't need to point that out to me) my story becomes widely read.

Any comments? Am I overthinking this?


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## Sam (Oct 3, 2013)

Violence of any kind will always be a sensitive topic for _someone_, but you can't allow their feelings to impinge on your job as a writer: to tell the story as honestly as you can. If that requires a character to have a knife, so be it. Anyone who thinks novels (or any form of media, for that matter) are to blame for the violence in the world is looking for a scapegoat. Unfortunately, the world is not as black and white as some people would like it to be.

PS: Did you know that at least one character in every Disney movie dies by unnatural (often violent) means? Don't believe me? 

http://www.cracked.com/article_16795_the-7-most-terrifying-disney-movie-deaths.html


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## escorial (Oct 3, 2013)

If You write what you think is politically correct as opposed to your imagination then you may not produce your best work...possibly.


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## Sintalion (Oct 3, 2013)

*In the current media, particularly in the UK, knife crime is  understandably a very sensitive subject at the moment, and I'm concerned  that having one of my protagonists carry such a weapon could cause  offence or worse, parents or potential reviewers to think I condone such  a thing. (The weapon is for self-protection and is necessary for his  job). I've seen a lot of stories where creative works are blamed for  real-world atrocities, and even said to have inspired such acts. *

I am not from the UK, and am unaware that this causes great offense, so I really can't help you there. However, I will ask how you can ever write a scene about a butcher? Or a mother making dinner in the kitchen? Or a chef? Or shopping for good knives? Or having one out in the woods while camping? 

Honestly, unless it's being toted about with the intent to kill, most folks aren't going to care. It's a story, and if you've laid the work down for why he has it (camper, mom, cop, etc), they'll be completely chill. 

Of course you can absolutely get folk who say that having the male protagonist sneeze on the heroine is a secret sign of disrespect towards women. Stuff you never thought to be worried over can impact the view of your writing. 

With people, we can be inspired by anything. Maybe it's a book, or maybe the book is the last piece of the puzzle we need to act. In any case, this happens and there's nothing you can do to prevent or ease it, so don't worry about it. In some cases books meant for this to happen; in other ones it was coincidental (I don't believe the author of the Dexter series, for example, intended for people to murder). 


*Am I wrong in thinking that even vampires ripping each others' heads off  in Twilight is less of a controversial portrayal of violence than  carrying a knife at the moment? *
Reading this, I would say yes. Carrying isn't an act of violence in my opinion. It's the using it, and how detailed the use of it is, that for me creates the controversy. But that's just me and like I said, I know nothing about the UK perceptions and I won't pretend to. 


* Any comments? Am I overthinking this?*
Again, I'd say yes because your book hasn't become widely read and you're not a famous person (I'm assuming anyway). It's nothing to worry about. Write what you want to write.  Just don't count your chickens before they hatch. Heck, sometimes even controversy is good for book sales!


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## Outiboros (Oct 3, 2013)

Oh, come on. Nobody's going to pick up on that. Knives are fine. It's basically a small sword, and how many fantasy YA protagonists don't have a sword?


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## Nickleby (Oct 3, 2013)

Charlaux said:


> I've seen a lot of stories where creative works are blamed for real-world atrocities, and even said to have inspired such acts.



Those stories are factually incorrect. Write your story.


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## The Tourist (Oct 3, 2013)

I'm a knife salesman, and I can assure you that knife hysteria is very real in the UK.  In fact, many knife companies (like Spyderco) make non-locking versions of their designs that can be sold legally in Britain.

It appears that the British do think it's okay for a folding knife to close on your fingers and have you bleed to death.

Once paranoia grips a region it's a race to the bottom.

http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/s...es&bwSKUdatarq=sp94&waDESCRIPTIONdatarq=drop&


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## Charlaux (Oct 4, 2013)

Thank you all for taking the time to respond to this – I’m reassured by the unanimous votes of confidence.

I’d like to tell the story as in my mind, it happens/happened, like Escorial said, but because I am writing in the YA genre and for a YA audience I admit I do feel the pressure to censor the use of weapons. Thank you for linking to that article Sam – I’d never thought of Disney films in that way, which I suppose reinforces my idea that at least some violence in entertainment produced for a younger audience is semi-invisible, in those instances I assume because it’s presented in a cartoon format. In my opinion, there is a small margin of violence which is a particularly sensitive spot, and that is the margin between common everyday acts of violence that we are now desensitised to, and completely unrealistic and exaggerated, and it’s this margin that I worry that my fight could fall into.

Sintallion, you make a logical point, but again the mention of knives alone is invisible – for cooking, or being out in the wood, but carrying a knife even for self defence in the UK is (in my opinion rightly) seen as likely intent to cause harm. My character would never do such a thing but in his culture it is seen as the norm for a person of his status, and so he wouldn’t understand the distinction. He's not carrying the knife with the intention to hurt but he does face a common threat, which I'm aware is a common excuse used by real knife-carrying teenagers which I don't want to support. I’m trying to write what I want to write, but as I also want to write what is good to be read, I feel like I need to carefully consider these things… especially in this day and age, with the media (wrongly) scapegoating creative works instead of apportioning the blame to social issues. 

Outiborus – that’s the expectation I hope will help my own weapon-toting hero to be overlooked. It’s just that when he steps over into ‘our world’ the place is so recognisable as our world, in a way it stops being a fantasy setting, really, and he is a teenager….

Thank you Nickleby. I was hoping for that response and reassurance. I am continuing to write at the moment, and am planning on finding a few proofreaders to give opinions on how the issue comes across in the final work and editing, if necessary.

Yes Tourist, it’s very real, and understandable… If you’re a specialist on the subject, I may have a few questions for you if you don’t mind a PM?


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## The Tourist (Oct 5, 2013)

Charlaux said:


> Yes Tourist, it’s very real, and understandable… If you’re a specialist on the subject, I may have a few questions for you if you don’t mind a PM?



I don't mind a bit.  In fact, I found your response just now when I was going to offer some insight into this locking issue.  In the USA our eight year old Cub Scouts carry locking knives.

The picture below is the locking mechanism that is illegal in Britain.  It is a titanium strip that abuts the rear of the blade blank when the knife is opened.  It clicks behind the blade and does not allow it to close until this strip is pushed to the side.





Now, to those in the *ahem* "free world" that have never seen a lock-blade knife, you might guess that this is the tool of insanity used by mercs, bikers, ninja warriors, terrorists and The Mafia.  The second picture shows the knife itself.

It's a Myerchin rigging knife.  It's used by fishermen, sailors, and sailboaters to splice line and clean fish.  Now, I know of no greater threat to the world's security than those pesky, hedonistic infidels we call "sport fishermen."

And this begs the question, didn't Britannia rule the waves?  That would imply they knew about boats and the Myerchin products.  Now it appears the UK is afraid of eight year old boys and the knives they use to whittle toy whistles...







http://www.myerchin.com/


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## Busterfriend (Dec 20, 2013)

Charlaux said:


> I'm currently writing a YA fantasy/urban fantasy that at some points, the characters appear in a world that the reader could recognise as our own. These characters aren't human, but appear to be so and the distinction is small. I feel that fantasy novels would be lacking without conflict, and though my story is by no means violent (only one actual fight scene in the entire novel which is built up to), one of my characters carries a weapon - specifically a knife.
> 
> In the current media, particularly in the UK, knife crime is understandably a very sensitive subject at the moment, and I'm concerned that having one of my protagonists carry such a weapon could cause offence or worse, parents or potential reviewers to think I condone such a thing. (The weapon is for self-protection and is necessary for his job). I've seen a lot of stories where creative works are blamed for real-world atrocities, and even said to have inspired such acts.
> 
> ...



The absolute worst thing a writer could do in my opinion is allow social issues, and the fear of offending someone hold back the story he has in his heart. You write whatever you want.

Also old thread, I know ;I if I see something that jolts me it's hard to resist replying.


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## The Tourist (Dec 20, 2013)

Charlaux said:


> In the current media, particularly in the UK, knife crime is understandably a very sensitive subject at the moment...Any comments? Am I overthinking this?



Well, I'm a redneck Amurkin.  I think the government should be afraid of me, not the reverse.  And I question the concept that being a subject is preferable to being a citizen.

A knife?  Yikes.  Both my wife (a teacher) and I carry locking, assisted opening folders.  You might consider them switchblades in your neck of the woods.  In fact, I sell real-deal Sicilian switchblades in my job, and I have a Wisconsin resellers license to accomplish that.  I sell to cops, and one of my riding buddies is The Dane County Sheriff, himself.

But this shows the dichotomy stemming from kicking Cornwallis out of Yorktown.  I even buy tea once a year just to pitch it into Lake Mendota.

I live in suburbia now, but I'll tell you a funny story about this.  One night at 3:00AM we heard a large noise in the backyard.  (A large tree had split right down the middle and simply fallen over.)  We called the beat cop.

A few minutes later a large bright light came through my front window and my cell phone rang.  The cop said, _"Tourist it's me--put the gun down, I'm coming to the door."_  I never said I was armed, he just knew me...

And I think that's your hook.  If the central characters are alien, then they should look and act differently than an actor in a cheap rubber suit.  For example, the real beauty of the alien in the first "Alien" movie was that the actor portraying the live-action scenes was a tall slender African with a strange gait.  He was not like your typical Martian, he was frighteningly different.

If I ever came to England, and there's not enough tequila, free Harleys and redheads to ever bribe me into that, I would be your alien.  As such, I wouldn't care about your silly weapons policies, I'd be contemptuous of your fear as a subject, I'd scoff at your media, and trust me, I'd be armed.

Your alien should also feel that way, unless he's a wuss on his planet, too.


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## tabasco5 (Dec 21, 2013)

The more controversy you can stir the better. (For sales)

- - - Updated - - -

The more controversy you can stir the better. (For sales)


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## The Tourist (Dec 21, 2013)

By the way, Charlaux, what type of knife was the alien going to carry?  Consider a kris, that's alien looking...


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 21, 2013)

If somebody wants to take offense, they'll find a reason.

I've even seen the Religious Reich claim that Barney the Dinosaur teaches kids Satanism.


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## The Tourist (Dec 21, 2013)

Sam said:


> Violence of any kind will always be a sensitive topic for _someone_, but you can't allow their feelings to impinge on your job as a writer: to tell the story as honestly as you can.



Sam, while I agree with you as a fellow writer, my opinion is that there is more at work than just harmless fiction.  In my novel several hundred teenage boys die in 6 minutes, 37 seconds.  The key here is the word "fiction."

Why is the OP scared to voice an opinion, that's my underlying concern.  Who's he afraid of?  It's a pretend knife in the non-existent hands of a character that doesn't really live and breathe.

I copied and pasted this thread over with my people at the 1911 Forum.  We think the guy's own society scared him out of writing.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=440690


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## The Tourist (Dec 21, 2013)

Sam said:


> Violence of any kind will always be a sensitive topic for _someone_, but you can't allow their feelings to impinge on your job as a writer: to tell the story as honestly as you can.



Sam, while I agree with you as a fellow writer, my opinion is that there is more at work than just harmless fiction.  In my novel several hundred teenage boys die in 6 minutes, 37 seconds.  The key here is the word "fiction."

Why is the OP scared to voice an opinion, that's my underlying concern.  Who's he afraid of?  It's a pretend knife in the non-existent hands of a character that doesn't really live and breathe.

I copied and pasted this thread over with my people at the 1911 Forum.  We think the guy's own society scared him out of writing.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=440690


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## Schrody (Dec 21, 2013)

Charlaux said:


> I'm currently writing a YA fantasy/urban fantasy that at some points, the characters appear in a world that the reader could recognise as our own. These characters aren't human, but appear to be so and the distinction is small. I feel that fantasy novels would be lacking without conflict, and though my story is by no means violent (only one actual fight scene in the entire novel which is built up to), one of my characters carries a weapon - specifically a knife.
> 
> In the current media, particularly in the UK, knife crime is understandably a very sensitive subject at the moment, and I'm concerned that having one of my protagonists carry such a weapon could cause offence or worse, parents or potential reviewers to think I condone such a thing. (The weapon is for self-protection and is necessary for his job). I've seen a lot of stories where creative works are blamed for real-world atrocities, and even said to have inspired such acts.
> 
> ...




I don't know what's with writers lately. Just write. You'll offend someone just because you crossed the road, or looked at someone. You can't avoid (just likes sometimes you can't avoid idiots) that, but you can stop worrying about that. Imagine, you character has a knife. Don't get me wrong, I don't wanna be harsh on you, I just want you to see how irrelevant your worry is. In of my crime story, main character is a hitman, and in one scene he goes to the brothel to kill a (I think it was) mayor of N.Y. while he's making fun with prostitutes. And what, now all New Yorker's should be offended? Please. Just relax, write what you like, enjoy in the process, and please, stop worrying, you're not like Sharon Stone in the "Basic Instinct" (I hope not, he he), so everything is okay.  And yeah, we live in the society where it's okay to show a massacre but not boob. Think about that. 

EDIT: I have one pretty gore story, and when I read it out loud, one woman said it's too much for her, world is already full of violence, why we have to write about that, blah blah... that was a good sign for me (it meant it's good written, and it really reach's the audience), so if you get the same crap as I did, congratulations, you're doing fine job.


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## The Tourist (Dec 21, 2013)

Schrody said:


> I don't know what's with writers lately. Just write. You'll offend someone just because you crossed the road, or looked at someone.



The problem with what you just expressed is that many believe that "apologizing for breathing" is the way it ought to be.  You'd be amazed at how many people in my state think we should be more like Europeans.

It's not that writers don't have the same thoughts, desires and love of writing that we all have, it's just that far too many have sampled the Kool-Aid.  They fear being labeled a racist or sexist more than they value telling the truth.

And that sad truth is most of us hate political correctness worse than bedbugs.  It forces many to espouse idiocy so people will "like us."  I have news for them.  The same people will hate you no matter how much you suck up to them.  Heck, I skip over fully 2/3s of the stuff here because it's lame.

And you realize what the OP is getting at, don't you?  He's not asking a knife as an implement or plot point.  He wants the leftists (whom he thinks run his world) to like him, and make him feel like a member of the inner circle.  I have more of a Groucho Marx view of any organization that would have me.

So in the end, I think he failed.  I'm not going to read his stuff.  Anyone who has to ask permission to do anything doesn't have the literary or personal gravitas to hold my interest.


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## Schrody (Dec 21, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> The problem with what you just expressed is that many believe that "apologizing for breathing" is the way it ought to be.


 
I know a lot of people who thinks like that. Well, I decides to say "Forget it" to all those conventions (of course, not to courtesy), and live the life my own way. If you get offended (and I didn't say anything racist, chauvinist...), that's your problem, not mine. I don't like political correctness just so other group f people would feel better. There need to be _some_ correctness, but not always, for example, if you say that white/caucasian people know how it's to be the victim of a racism, Afro-American people will give you the evil eye, and there's a lot of other examples. Now, I don't want to turn this thread to politics, I'm just sayin' that sometimes, forget political correctness if you're telling the truth. It goes the same with writing (violence, etc.). If Nabokov was so concerned about what people may think, he would never wrote Lolita. There are many writers who write "provocative" and less provocative literature, but I don't think they should stop writing about "hot world problems". That kind of literature can be good thing for conversation, for seeing that there is a problem, and we should find an answer. In worst case scenario, it can expand horizons and consciousness.



The Tourist said:


> You'd be amazed at how many people in my state think we should be more like Europeans.



And what are we like-Europeans? I'm not offended (of course), I'm just interested about how non-Europeans (in this case Americans), see other nations, in this case Europe. Trust me, we're not better nor worse than the rest of the world. We have racism, chauvinism, homophobia, xenophobia and all other pretty things.  For example, here in the Eastern Europe, people really don't like Gypsies. Why? Because they send their barefoot, almost naked children to beg for money. And police and institution don't do nothing. Why? Because it's their way of life, and their culture, and we should respect that, no matter how many laws are they breaking. 



The Tourist said:


> It's not that writers don't have the same thoughts, desires and love of writing that we all have, it's just that far too many have sampled the Kool-Aid.  They fear being labeled a racist or sexist more than they value telling the truth.



That's what I'm saying; people are too scared to say something because of the fear being labeled racist. If it's true (and scientifically/medically true), then it's not racism. Take any two race on the Earth and compare them; there will always be some thing that one race can, and other can't. And how is that exactly racism?



The Tourist said:


> And that sad truth is most of us hate political correctness worse than bedbugs.  It forces many to espouse idiocy so people will "like us."  I have news for them.  The same people will hate you no matter how much you suck up to them.  Heck, I skip over fully 2/3s of the stuff here because it's lame.



I hear you. Same here.



The Tourist said:


> And you realize what the OP is getting at, don't you?  He's not asking a knife as an implement or plot point.  He wants the leftists (whom he thinks run his world) to like him, and make him feel like a member of the inner circle.  I have more of a Groucho Marx view of any organization that would have me.



Most people would do anything just so other people would like them, and give them their approval. People are too weak and too independent about other's opinion. P.s. what OP stands for? 



The Tourist said:


> So in the end, I think he failed.  I'm not going to read his stuff.  Anyone who has to ask permission to do anything doesn't have the literary or personal gravitas to hold my interest.



He failed, and he will fail every time when he won't write something just because he's afraid of the reaction of his neighborhood, etc.


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## The Tourist (Dec 21, 2013)

Schrody, I live near "The Peoples' Republik of Madison."  It's a liberal college town in Wisconsin.  It's so red that a former governor once described it as "_77 square miles surrounded by reality_."

If you listen to our media, you will get indoctrinated to believe we all yearn to be sickeningly progressive.  However, the majority of Americans like trucks, deer hunting, big boobs and Harleys.  In fact, even here in the craw of communism, the town shuts down Sunday afternoons for the Packer game.

Nationally however, "being European" means socialized everything, no firearms, fawning for minorities, and pretending that Obama knows what he's doing.  This is our enforced public persona, but openly anyone caught driving a Prius is assumed to be gay.

Now, I use a touch of humor here, but the reality is that the manager of our mall bookstore is happy when us gun totin' rednecks sit and drink Starbucks coffee.  The food court is right outside her front entrance, and that's a place that can get rife with Chicago banger rejects plying the drug trade.  It's so bad that one cop at the gym told me he's sick of busting them, only to find Illinois ID.

The part that isn't funny is that 35% of the new, first time gun owners are women.  When it comes to the big socialist dream, it has to be crammed down our throats.  So intense is the pressure to buy this drivel that one pundit claimed Obama would already be impeached if he was white.  We've lost faith in our leaders.

As it applies to this thread, I was disgusted that people who possess the real power to convey ideas and important messages (heretofore newspaper editors and writers) now also check the wind to make sure they're not offensive.  Since when did that become our standard?  My Aunt Clara used to say that if a man lived his life correctly his funeral would be packed--half there to mourn, the other half to make sure he's dead.

I don't ask permission from my detractors, I ask if they are wearing Kevlar.  My country needs a two pound enema before we start calling each other "comrade."  I don't ever want to wake up in a country that the OP now calls home.


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## dale (Dec 21, 2013)

you can expect some of this backlash when starting out, if you write in politically incorrect themes. i've already been through it.
i had an agent in NYC tell me my novel was exquisitely written and had an intriguing concept, but that she wouldn't be a good fit
for representation due to her "personal reservations about the content". i'm not gonna worry about it, though. i write what i write.
if new york don't want it, some smaller publisher will. the media can say what they will, though. the way i see it...any publicity is good.


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## Schrody (Dec 21, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> If you listen to our media, you will get indoctrinated to believe we all yearn to be sickeningly progressive.



It seems like it, but of course, indoctrination exist here too, only it's made by the Church (and stupid politicians). 



The Tourist said:


> Nationally however, "being European" means socialized everything, no firearms, fawning for minorities, and pretending that Obama knows what he's doing.


 
I don't think even Obama knows what he's doing. Sure, here people have less gun than average American, but shit happens here too. Do I need to remind you about slaughter in Norway (last or year before that)? We're not that "perfect", it's just a mask to keep good appearances in the public, hence, the world.



The Tourist said:


> This is our enforced public persona, but openly anyone caught driving a Prius is assumed to be gay.



Ha ha. Same as here. 



The Tourist said:


> Now, I use a touch of humor here, but the reality is that the manager of our mall bookstore is happy when us gun totin' rednecks sit and drink Starbucks coffee.  The food court is right outside her front entrance, and that's a place that can get rife with Chicago banger rejects plying the drug trade.  It's so bad that one cop at the gym told me he's sick of busting them, only to find Illinois ID.



Of course he's happy, you're his "protection", he's safe when you're around. 



The Tourist said:


> The part that isn't funny is that 35% of the new, first time gun owners are women.  When it comes to the big socialist dream, it has to be crammed down our throats.


 
Women are weaker, and much easier target. I don't really blame them, I just blame irresponsible one.



The Tourist said:


> So intense is the pressure to buy this drivel that one pundit claimed Obama would already be impeached if he was white.



Probably.



The Tourist said:


> As it applies to this thread, I was disgusted that people who possess the real power to convey ideas and important messages (heretofore newspaper editors and writers) now also check the wind to make sure they're not offensive. Since when did that become our standard?



Since it sells better, or their publishers aren't so happy with their writing.




The Tourist said:


> My Aunt Clara used to say that if a man lived his life correctly his funeral would be packed--half there to mourn, the other half to make sure he's dead.



I like the way your aunt thinks. 



The Tourist said:


> My country needs a two pound enema before we start calling each other "comrade."



Communism is dead for a long time, and it's important not to mix communism with socialism. 



The Tourist said:


> I don't ever want to wake up in a country that the OP now calls home.



Nobody wants.


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 21, 2013)

One thing that gets to me is feminists who get upset that a powerful woman is shown in a sexual way (for example, chain mail bikinis).   A woman shouldn't have to choose between being sexy and being powerful.


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## Schrody (Dec 21, 2013)

dale said:


> you can expect some of this backlash when starting out, if you write in politically incorrect themes. i've already been through it.
> i had an agent in NYC tell me my novel was exquisitely written and had an intriguing concept, but that she wouldn't be a good fit
> for representation due to her "personal reservations about the content". i'm not gonna worry about it, though. i write what i write.
> if new york don't want it, some smaller publisher will. the media can say what they will, though. the way i see it...any publicity is good.



Depends what are political incorrect themes for you. If you're write like a racist, sure it's racism and incorrectness. But if you write about how much Chinese love/eat rice, I don't see any incorrectness here (if it's not in a offensive manner).


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## The Tourist (Dec 21, 2013)

Justin Rocket said:


> A woman shouldn't have to choose between being sexy and being powerful.



At the end of the day, nobody should have to make that decision.

Here's the worst kept secret in the world.  I usually correspond here over morning coffee, but as I do I toggle back and forth with www.1911forum.com and I'd recommend you guys do, too.  Especially those of you in Europe and Canada.

Contrast what you read there to some ideology espoused here.  The guys over there are the folks that George Bailey referred to as "the ones that do most of the living and dying."  Not many silver spoons over there, just Americans--with jobs.

After you've perused a forum of that type, consider how the world _as it really is_ will receive your stories.  For the OP and the unique purpose of the thread, do you think a potential book buyer with money in his jeans over there, who most likely owns two dozen 1911s (and that's just one style of handgun) is going to invest in your career?  Most likely he'd "key" your Prius.

I came here to get insight into writing, and I maintain a healthy and active relationship with many writers and poets in PM.  I think the return idea would benefit those afraid of their own government.


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## dale (Dec 21, 2013)

Schrody said:


> Depends what are political incorrect themes for you. If you're write like a racist, sure it's racism and incorrectness. But if you write about how much Chinese love/eat rice, I don't see any incorrectness here (if it's not in a offensive manner).



 to me...i don't see any theme as "politically incorrect". one of my favorite writers is voltaire. that man faced arrest and exile for his writing, it was so "incorrect". an artist can't have these blinders on what is or is not "offensive". that's not art. that's approved propaganda.


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## Schrody (Dec 21, 2013)

Justin Rocket said:


> One thing that gets to me is feminists who get upset that a powerful woman is shown in a sexual way (for example, chain mail bikinis).   A woman shouldn't have to choose between being sexy and being powerful.



Feminism is a plague of a modern era. Now, feminism achieved for women to get right to vote, to work freely instead being of housewife, that every woman decides about her body and not some man (contraception, abortion, etc.)... and that's all great. But, in this modern times feminism become a monster oppressing everyone who haven't extra X chromosome, and that's terrifying. Feminism went in the wrong direction, feeling that it has the "power" to oppress men for the centuries when roles were opposite. Some extremist even proposed that mankind should be renamed because it has "man" and not woman. I mean really, where will all this lead us? I really hate this modern feminism, because it's nothing more than a hate speech.


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## The Tourist (Dec 21, 2013)

Schrody, I like your style.  If you ever get to Madison, Wisconsin, I'll take you to Reverend Jim's Roadhouse.  We'll have a good time, with luck, get our noses broken and make bail...


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## Schrody (Dec 21, 2013)

dale said:


> to me...i don't see any theme as "politically incorrect". one of my favorite writers is voltaire. that man faced arrest and exile for his writing, it was so "incorrect". an artist can't have these blinders on what is or is not "offensive". that's not art. that's approved propaganda.



Well, there is political incorrectness, e.g. if you say that one race/religion/sex is less worthy than the other, than that is not just your opinion, it's also racism/chauvinism... and I don't approve that. But if you write that most of the Jews are rich, I don't see any problem with that. Truth can't be politically incorrect, no matter how much it hurts it's opponents.


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## Schrody (Dec 21, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Schrody, I like your style.  If you ever get to Madison, Wisconsin, I'll take you to Reverend Jim's Roadhouse.  We'll have a good time, with luck, get our noses broken and make bail...



He he, great. Although, I would rather keep my "achievement" of not breaking any bone.


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## dale (Dec 21, 2013)

Schrody said:


> Well, there is political incorrectness, e.g. if you say that one race/religion/sex is less worthy than the other, than that is not just your opinion, it's also racism/chauvinism... and I don't approve that. But if you write that most of the Jews are rich, I don't see any problem with that. Truth can't be politically incorrect, no matter how much it hurts it's opponents.



i don't agree. i think it's one person's opinion of what is or is not equal. and i believe the truth can fly in many different directions. 
the flack i got from NYC over my novel wasn't over race, btw...it was over abortion. i had no political intentions with the story, it's
just a ghost story. but since the story gives the fetus a soul and humanizes it, the agent didn't like that. my WIP does have a race
 theme to it. and i'm sure it will contain content which the dizzy-headed metro whiners will consider offensive. but that's not my problem.
if they wanna try and label me a "racist" for talking about race? then they best go thru my black ex-wife, mixed child and jewish mother 1st.

edit: lol. and this jew happens to be dirt-poor, btw. ha ha


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 21, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> openly anyone caught driving a Prius is assumed to be gay.


 
Words fail to describe how much I loathe this homophobic myth.  Homosexuality and effeminacy are not related except on tv.  Homosexuality and liberalism are only slightly more related (and that's only because, in the US, the conservative party has had the giant turd of the Religious Reich dropped in it).  When a gay guy is getting bashed and cops are minutes away, the gay guy wants a weapon to defend himself.  The primary reason I'm good at writing hand-to-hand combat is the more than 16 years of training I've had in everything from boxing to Kali to Systema to Silat.


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## dale (Dec 21, 2013)

Justin Rocket said:


> Words fail to describe how much I loathe this homophobic myth.  Homosexuality and effeminacy are not related except on tv.  Homosexuality and liberalism are only slightly more related (and that's only because, in the US, the conservative party has had the giant turd of the Religious Reich dropped in it).  When a gay guy is getting bashed and cops are minutes away, the gay guy wants a weapon to defend himself.  The primary reason I'm good at writing hand-to-hand combat is the more than 16 years of training I've had in everything from boxing to Kali to Systema to Silat.



and there we have the point of this thread.....you were offended by this relation of homosexuality to effeminacy. but i don't see anyone in the media really ripping into
the hollywood media movement for portraying this stereotype. but i bet those same hollywood media types won't portray a muslim as primitive or violent on a tv sit-com. or like the news here in indianapolis. the city had a string of violent home invasions. this happens all the time. when it's a white suspect, not only does the media present a full description, they even put up a picture on the tv of the guy. this string of violent home invasions consisting of rape, robbery, battery, kidnapping. the media even refused
to give any descriptions at all of these people running loose doing this stuff. why? because they were black and the media was scared it would be politically incorrect to give their descriptions. and it's nonsense. that's why....i don't pay attention to the rules of political correctness. it's just a bunch of made up nonsense. my stories will flow where they flow. that's all there is.


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## Schrody (Dec 21, 2013)

dale said:


> i don't agree. i think it's one person's opinion of what is or is not equal.



Yes, if you're not thinking that one race should be wiped from the face of the Earth, or one sex is better than other. There are many "variations", for example, men are stronger than women, hence they're not equal in strength, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve the same rights.



dale said:


> and i believe the truth can fly in many different directions.
> the flack i got from NYC over my novel wasn't over race, btw...it was over abortion. i had no political intentions with the story, it's
> just a ghost story. but since the story gives the fetus a soul and humanizes it, the agent didn't like that. my WIP does have a race
> theme to it. and i'm sure it will contain content which the dizzy-headed metro whiners will consider offensive. but that's not my problem.
> if they wanna try and label me a "racist" for talking about race? then they best go thru my black ex-wife, mixed child and jewish mother 1st.



I didn't say it was about race, nor I called you racist, I just said I don't approve that (racism). And abortion is another story, I don't see why and what is political correctness here. It is only to woman (in ideal world both man and woman would decide, but from biological view it's impossible) to decide will she or won't abort. Sure, your story may offend conservative Catholics, but why do you care? I'm sorry your agent rejected your story, it only showed you need a new agent. I wouldn't say your story is colored with politics, it's a personal choice, just like the car you'll drive (I'm not underestimating an act of abortion), will you believe in Buddha or Allah.



dale said:


> edit: lol. and this jew happens to be dirt-poor, btw. ha ha



LOL. But I said almost, not every.  



Justin Rocket said:


> Words fail to describe how much I loathe this homophobic myth.  Homosexuality and effeminacy are not related except on tv.  Homosexuality and liberalism are only slightly more related (and that's only because, in the US, the conservative party has had the giant turd of the Religious Reich dropped in it).  When a gay guy is getting bashed and cops are minutes away, the gay guy wants a weapon to defend himself.  The primary reason I'm good at writing hand-to-hand combat is the more than 16 years of training I've had in everything from boxing to Kali to Systema to Silat.



I think it's a more of a tease, not real insult. I mean, if someone says you're gay just because you drive Prius, and you get offended, maybe it is you that's part of the problem. I'm not for homophobia, but this is too ridiculous to be taken seriously or homophobic.


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## Busterfriend (Dec 21, 2013)

Schrody said:


> Feminism is a plague of a modern era. Now, feminism achieved for women to get right to vote, to work freely instead being of housewife, that every woman decides about her body and not some man (contraception, abortion, etc.)... and that's all great. But, in this modern times feminism become a monster oppressing everyone who haven't extra X chromosome, and that's terrifying. Feminism went in the wrong direction, feeling that it has the "power" to oppress men for the centuries when roles were opposite. Some extremist even proposed that mankind should be renamed because it has "man" and not woman. I mean really, where will all this lead us? I really hate this modern feminism, because it's nothing more than a hate speech.



Couldn't agree more.


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## Schrody (Dec 21, 2013)

dale said:


> because they were black and the media was scared it would be politically incorrect to give their descriptions. and it's nonsense. that's why....i don't pay attention to the rules of political correctness. it's just a bunch of made up nonsense.



What a world we live in. In my country there is a few black people (I really can't say Afro-American when they obviously don't live in the U.S., and that term is also political correct; why is it wrong to say black, but it's okay to say white, red, yellow...?), but when some rich man's kid commit a crime, he'll get (if he gets) like few months or year on parole even if he killed someone, but when ordinary guy does it, oh no, you get 3-5 years in jail. I just don't get it, and it's making me sick.



dale said:


> my stories will flow where they flow. that's all there is.



And that's how it should be; I surely won't limit myself just because some radical Christian (insert what you want here) might be offended.


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## Terry D (Dec 21, 2013)

This thread is getting well off track from the OP's question about the effects of the media on what we write. It is not a debate about what does, or doesn't constitute racism, homophobia, or any other form of discrimination. Nor is it a question as to what level of political correctness we agree with.  

As to the original question; I am aware that some readers (not the media, but those who buy and read my work) might not like some of the things I write about, but that doesn't stop me from writing about them. I want readers to be uncomfortable with my stories--that's where emotions happen.


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## The Tourist (Dec 21, 2013)

Terry D said:


> might not like some of the things I write about, but that doesn't stop me from writing about them



It doesn't bother me either, in both writing and offering an opinion.  With one proviso.

That being, I do not need the revenue from writing.  This gives me the flexibility to say just about anything I want to just about anybody I want.

We might even be able to get away with pushing the envelope here, but in Britain they have no real freedom of the press.  As much as I want the guy to grow some hair, writing might be his only gig.

At this point, the OP should weigh in on why this scares him so much, we might be off base.


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## Morkonan (Dec 21, 2013)

Charlaux said:


> ....In the current media, particularly in the UK, knife crime is understandably a very sensitive subject at the moment, and I'm concerned that having one of my protagonists carry such a weapon could cause offence or worse, parents or potential reviewers to think I condone such a thing.....
> 
> Any comments? Am I overthinking this?



You're underthinking it.

As a writer, you *should* be writing about knife crime. In fact, you should be writing willy-nilly on it, examining it from every possible angle you can think of. You should be taking popular notions of knife crime and turning them on their ear. You should be battering the subject as hard as you can, just so you can see if you can get anything of substance out of it.

Writers are the conscience of culture. Don't ever forget that. Without you, your society can not safely examine controversial issues and may, due to the day-to-day needs of mere survival, miss important moments in its evolution. You must write. You must be the conscience of your culture.

That doesn't mean you should turn your skills towards attempting to convince people to do harmful things. No, that would be evil. Seriously - Evil. Instead, you should turn your talents towards safely examining cultural and social problems within works of fiction. 

You can not be a true writer if you avoid such subjects. At least, you can't be one who is worthy of the title, in my opinion.


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 21, 2013)

Morkonan said:


> Writers are the conscience of culture. Don't ever forget that. Without you, your society can not safely examine controversial issues and may, due to the day-to-day needs of mere survival, miss important moments in its evolution. You must write. You must be the conscience of your culture.



You don't actually believe that, do you?

I mean, the ancient Greeks quite regularly examined controversial issues in the Senate without needing writers (sure, they had them, here and there, but they were kinda like the cherry on top of the real muscle of oral debate).

- - - Updated - - -



Morkonan said:


> Writers are the conscience of culture. Don't ever forget that. Without you, your society can not safely examine controversial issues and may, due to the day-to-day needs of mere survival, miss important moments in its evolution. You must write. You must be the conscience of your culture.



You don't actually believe that, do you?

I mean, the ancient Greeks quite regularly examined controversial issues in the Senate without needing writers (sure, they had them, here and there, but they were kinda like the cherry on top of the real muscle of oral debate).


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## Jeko (Dec 22, 2013)

> I mean, the ancient Greeks quite regularly examined controversial issues in the Senate without needing writers (sure, they had them, here and there, but they were kinda like the cherry on top of the real muscle of oral debate).



Please clarify.


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## Charlaux (Dec 22, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> At this point, the OP should weigh in on why this scares him so much, we might be off base.



Just checked in - also, I'm a she, not a he. Just thought I should clarify so that you might be a little less offended at the lack of testicles I've apparently demonstrated by asking this question.

A lot has been said and as Terry said this topic has gone off the original topic (which is good, if it has given people something to think about), but I will pick a few of the things that I feel need clarifying:



> And you realize what the OP is getting at, don't you? He's not asking a knife as an implement or plot point. He wants the leftists (whom he thinks run his world) to like him, and make him feel like a member of the inner circle. I have more of a Groucho Marx view of any organization that would have me.



^ this. I don't want to join a leftist inner circle. I'm not writing political statement, my target audience are teenagers and yes I will admit to believing that different things are suited to different age groups. Which also applies to this:



> So in the end, I think he failed. I'm not going to read his stuff. Anyone who has to ask permission to do anything doesn't have the literary or personal gravitas to hold my interest.





> After you've perused a forum of that type, consider how the world _as it really is_ will receive your stories. For the OP and the unique purpose of the thread, do you think a potential book buyer with money in his jeans over there, who most likely owns two dozen 1911s (and that's just one style of handgun) is going to invest in your career? Most likely he'd "key" your Prius.



And that. I think you're very much aware (and proud of the fact) that you hold very different views to the majority of people and that you like to be controversial. This is a YA novel that I'm writing, I wouldn't expect you to buy it at a book store. It isn't meant to be remotely political; I write for entertainment, not with an agenda in mind. Your own political/social views give you a very different view of what's right and wrong, and colours what you write and choose to read.

Killing several hundred teenage boys in a few minutes also puts your book in a different genre to mine.



> Most people would do anything just so other people would like them, and give them their approval. People are too weak and too independent about other's opinion. P.s. what OP stands for?



That I found offensive.  


Back onto what I said originally, I'll clarify: I admit to being conscious of the scrutiny of the media, and of the link that they forge between fiction and real life events. Whether there is a link, I won't pretend to know, I don't think anyone can for certain because every case is different. I don't think this makes me a shaky lefty who eats with a plastic knife and fork.  I don't shy away from violence in general in fiction, I'd say I'm actually less squeamish than most people I know.

The violence in my novel is a very specific kind - what are effectively children, potentially stabbing another youth in a very close proximity.


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 22, 2013)

Cadence said:


> Please clarify.



?? Clarify what?  The oral tradition of the ancient Greek philosophers/debaters?


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## Schrody (Dec 22, 2013)

Charlaux said:


> That I found offensive.



I'm sorry you were offended by my post. I don't know you, but I know a lot of people who are just like that, and with what you wrote, I assumed you're the same. But you really need to stand for yourself, and your stories.


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## Jeko (Dec 22, 2013)

> ?? Clarify what? The oral tradition of the ancient Greek philosophers/debaters?



How artistic and/or philosophical writing is a 'cherry' on the top of verbal debate, and how what you said relates to a 21st century world. I'm curious, is all.


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## Staff Deployment (Dec 22, 2013)

Cadence -- among the very first literary media in recorded history was Plato's dialogues. Definitely not the first overall (not by thousands of years), but almost certainly one of the first that exploited the way they were told beyond simply telling a story, or even recording events (as it's highly argued that most of them were fiction).

They were dialogues: conversations between two or more people about a specific topic of discussion, usually philosophy. The reason Plato used this format as opposed to a more traditional prose was because that was a prized skill in those times. Their legal system relied on in-depth oral discussion as well as the participation of regular citizens in a way that was more "philosophical" than it is in modern times, e.g. does this person _deserve_ to be punished for his actions? Was what this man did _pious_ or _impious_ in the eyes of the gods? ... rather than based strictly on legal parameters.

Writers like Plato were the "cherry on top" as Justin said, because the true rigor of discussion and culture was based around oral debates, while writers were the elite few who were able to write things down and preserve them. Even Plato's (and others') writings may not be a perfect representation of ancient culture because it all came with a heavy bias towards the writer's point of view, and the accounts may not be 100% reliable (as mentioned, Plato's dialogues may have been fiction: Socrates may either have never existed, or had indeed existed but had never spoken in such a way that Plato described).


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## Jeko (Dec 24, 2013)

Thanks for the explanation, SD. 

On what Morkonan said (that writers are the conscience of society), I would say that writers are one of the best methods of preserving an impression of - or opinion on - society. But they are the effect, rather than the cause, of our examination of our state of affairs. They can shape said examination, however, but they are not instrumental in it.

And I'm not sure what Oscar Wilde would say about 'safely examining controversial issues'. I believe 'The Picture of Dorian Grey' was used against him when he stood on trial.


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