# Starting with dialogue?



## qwertyman (Sep 2, 2010)

I am told it is foolish to start Chapter one with dialogue. 

Setting the scene with narrative even if it is confined to three sentences, should take precedence.

It seems like a small detail to conform to, but I’m interested to know, would it put you off, if you opened a book and it started with six lines of dialogue?


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## JosephB (Sep 2, 2010)

That's nonsense. It's not something you see often, but there's no reason why it can't work. And I know I've seen it done. Who comes up with this stuff?

Three sentences? Why three?


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## qwertyman (Sep 2, 2010)

Josephb said:
			
		

> That's nonsense. It's not something you see often, but there's no reason why it can't work. And I know I've seen it done. Who comes up with this stuff?


​​​I'm inclined to agree. ​Nevertheless, I was recently at a workshop given by Peter Cunningham, 

www.petercunninghambooks.com

He used an exercise whereby he read through submissions at the speed and pace of a publisher’s reader, (which he had at one time been), commenting as he did so. When he came to one that started with dialogue, he dropped it on the ‘no’ pile commenting, ‘foolhardy’.

It wasn’t my piece, but I had written something similar and, in another forum, it received a similar response.




> Three sentences? Why three?


 
Ignore the 'three', read it as, 'a small number'.


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## JosephB (Sep 2, 2010)

I think whether or not your tailor work specifically to satisify editors is another conversation. Is that a common reaction? Or does this guy just have an aversion to it? I have no idea.


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## garza (Sep 2, 2010)

I always enjoy opening a book or a story and being dropped into the middle of the action with dialogue. Of course, I'm not a fiction writer, just a reader, but it seems to me that, skillfully handled, opening with dialogue can immediately draw in the reader.


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## qwertyman (Sep 2, 2010)

JosephB said:


> I think whether or not your tailor work specifically to satisify editors is another conversation..


 
Agreed, but there is considerable common ground.



> Is that a common reaction? Or does this guy just have an aversion to it? I have no idea


 
I have no idea either. It's something upon which there seems little discussion. I borrowed a book called 'Make a scene', by Jordane E. Rosenfield. He makes the following remark:



"Here are some essential guidlines for opening this type of scene (action or character launch),

Ground the reader in the setting before the dialogue begins."
#
He is referring to a scene and I am left with the assumption it would be more relevant when applied to Chapter one.

#
I found this on-line:*www.darcypattison.com/revision/opening-chapters/*

*Ground the reader in the setting.* The reader needs to know immediately WHEN and WHERE the story is taking place. Please use specifics here: Is this 1825 or 1977? Are we in Manitoba, Canada, or one of the Florida Keys? Specific sensory details should cue the reader to the exact location, even if you don’t specifically say where we are in the first couple paragraphs. 
#
It only excludes dialogue by implication.

Hence my question to you guys.


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## Foxee (Sep 2, 2010)

It seems like advice that might be good to follow as a rule of thumb ('Don't forget to set the scene - here's how you can do it') but it wouldn't put me off to have a scene or the beginning of the book start with some dialogue if it was well-written. If you do disregard this I would imagine it is because you're trying for an air of mystery, the scene becomes another question you raise in the reader's mind and they'll continue reading in order to discover the answer.

My view is that no matter how you start your job is to grip the reader by the eyeballs* and drag them into the story. After that you have to keep them nailed there till the end even if they're interrupted.


*Ox, that's a figurative eyeball-grabbing.


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## Foxee (Sep 2, 2010)

Originally Posted by *JosephB* 

 
                 . Someone's idea of advice in one of these threads on editing was, "less is more." Really.


			
				qwertyman said:
			
		

> How about - "As long as it's well written."


I believe this cheap shot goes over here, you get a lead star for digging so hard for it, though.


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## qwertyman (Sep 2, 2010)

Back to the plot...





			
				Foxee said:
			
		

> It seems like advice that might be good to follow as a rule of thumb


 
Yes, I can see the sense in that. 

I wonder, due to the knee-jerk reaction of the 'editor' in binning it, whether it is more than that. Is it a deal-breaker? 

Is it really unsettling for the reader to be confronted with WHAT and WHO before WHERE?


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## Like a Fox (Sep 2, 2010)

We've been talking a lot about opening sentences/paragraphs/ and pages in my novel writing class.

My teacher believes the first page is one of the last things that should be written because the whole essence of the story needs to be on that first page, in that first paragraph, even in the first sentence.

The hook needs to be there. We studied a lot of opening lines. Sex and death are common, because they grip someone instantly. Humour can do the same. A sense of character, someone to care about. And curiosity. A question we want to know the answer to.

So absolutely I think you can start with dialogue. But I also think it's worth noting that some publishers will do as Peter Cunningham did and drop it without really looking.
You want someone to pick up your manuscript and have no excuse to drop it. If it got picked up you could maybe convince the editor to agree with you on opening the novel with dialogue. But it would need to consider those other elements, and maybe it's a risk when subbing your manuscript.


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## Sam (Sep 2, 2010)

Generally speaking, the first page should always start with prose. 

Yeah, right. What, as Joe said, a load of nonsense. Start it whatever way you want, Qwerty.


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## qwertyman (Sep 2, 2010)

Like a Fox said:


> So absolutely I think you can start with dialogue. But I also think it's worth noting that some publishers will do as Peter Cunningham did and drop it without really looking.
> You want someone to pick up your manuscript and have no excuse to drop it. If it got picked up you could maybe convince the editor to agree with you on opening the novel with dialogue. But it would need to consider those other elements, and maybe it's a risk when subbing your manuscript.


 
Mmmmn, but what about you? If you were in a bookshop, would it be a pass if you opened the first page and saw the first six lines were dialogue? 
Let's assume that it is competently written.

Would you be unsettled by WHO and WHAT before WHERE or WHEN?


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## Foxee (Sep 2, 2010)

> My teacher believes the first page is one of the last things that should  be written because the whole essence of the story needs to be on that  first page, in that first paragraph, even in the first sentence.


Seems that the essence of the story could be captured a lot of ways (applying this to Qwerty's question) and dialogue could be one possible way.


> Would you be unsettled by WHO and WHAT before WHERE or WHEN?


Probably not. I'd appreciate knowing WHERE and WHEN eventually, though.


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## garza (Sep 2, 2010)

If the book starts with dialogue and the dialogue is interesting I'll want to read more to find out who these people are and what they are talking about,

If I write a newspaper article using the inverted pyramid then I will have who, what, when, and where in the first sentence. That's a rule, absolute and unbreakable. 

_Belize City Police today arrested 45-year-old Joe Smythe of Bayman Avenue and charged him with murder in connection with the the August 8th shooting death of 37-year-old Leon Jones at Riverside Bar on North Front Street._

Now if the editor cuts everything after that, the reader has the most important facts of the story. 

But I don't want all the important facts of a story stuck in the opening sentence or even page when I'm reading for pleasure. I want the details to be woven into a tapestry that I can enjoy viewing a bit at a time, watching the peices fall into place, the conflict develop, the problems resolved page by page.

The idea of writing the first sentence last does sound like a good idea, though. That way an essential 'feel' for the story can be established in the readers mind whether the opening is narrative or dialogue.

I'm working on a short story that is almost all dialogue, including the entire opening scene. I'll be brave and post it soon in Fiction.


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## Like a Fox (Sep 2, 2010)

qwertyman said:


> Mmmmn, but what about you? If you were in a bookshop, would it be a pass if you opened the first page and saw the first six lines were dialogue?
> Let's assume that it is competently written.
> 
> Would you be unsettled by WHO and WHAT before WHERE or WHEN?


As a reader that would actually appeal to me. I like to start stories right in dialogue myself.
But my priority is getting my work published. And from what I know of the publishing world, tis best to be somewhat flexible to its petty whims.


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## qwertyman (Sep 3, 2010)

Sam W said:


> Generally speaking, the first page should always start with prose.
> 
> Yeah, right. What, as Joe said, a load of nonsense. Start it whatever way you want, Qwerty.


 
Sam, you'll have to interpret this for me. 'Generally speaking' conflicts with 'always', as does the second sentence.



			
				Like a fox said:
			
		

> As a reader that would actually appeal to me. I like to start stories right in dialogue myself.
> But my priority is getting my work published. And from what I know of the publishing world, tis best to be somewhat flexible to its petty whims.


 
Agreed.

However, a commonly held agreement on WF that it can work, seems to be in conflict with what 'editors' think. That's unusual.
I can add that when I posted a piece opening with a telephone conversation, nobody on WF queried it.


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## caelum (Sep 3, 2010)

I like opening pieces with a quick exchange to let the reader know action is happening right now.

"You ready?" Bill said.
"Ready as spaghetti on a cold night, Freddy," Al sang gloriously.
(prose)


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## Sam (Sep 3, 2010)

qwertyman said:


> Sam, you'll have to interpret this for me. 'Generally speaking' conflicts with 'always', as does the second sentence.



I was taking the p**s, Qwerty. You know me well enough to know that all this "rules" nonsense means little to nothing to me.


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## qwertyman (Sep 3, 2010)

caelum said:


> "You ready?" Bill said.
> "Ready as spaghetti on a cold night, Freddy," Al sang gloriously.
> (prose)


 
I like it, there's nothing wrong with that...erm...except, why is Al calling Bill, Freddy? I would find that unsettling in the first line.



			
				sam W said:
			
		

> I was taking the p**s, Qwerty. You know me well enough to know that all this "rules" nonsense means little to nothing to me.


 
Yeah, okay consider the piss taken. 



But nobody's mentioned 'rules: 'foolish', 'foolhardy', 'whims'.'commonly held agreement', 'advice that might be good to follow', are all referred to, but you are the first to mention 'rules'. 

I know I can write what I want, I'm just perturbed that editor's might spike it on sight. I've never heard of this intolerance before. Judging by the reponse, I think it might be a thinly held view. 

Just askin' around.


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## caelum (Sep 3, 2010)

> why is Al calling Bill, Freddy?


Only for the sake of the rhyme.  If I were to actually use it, Bill would probably become Fred, and the glorious singing might have to take a hike.  Who knows. . . I may have a foundation, here.


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## qwertyman (Sep 3, 2010)

Mmmmn, I have for a long time suspected this. Are you Dutch?


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## caelum (Sep 3, 2010)

What?  How'd you get that impression?  Nope, I'm a 100% thoroughbred Canadian, though with a European ancestry.  As I imagine every single person except the natives has.

Edit: Not counting people whose families immigrated from South America, the States, Mexico, China, Indonesia, Africa, Russia, etc.


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## JosephB (Sep 3, 2010)

Unless you're just curious and want to have a nice chat about it, this is the kind of thing you should just write and post -- or at the very least, just try for yourself. Because it's a good bet the answers are going to be along the lines of , "sure it can work, but it depends..." 

Although you might get some interesting perspectives, what people think about things like this -- in a general sense -- doesn't really make that much difference. So if you have an idea for how it might work, try it. What you write might nail it -- or not. But you'll never get a real sense of it without getting some sort of feedback based on actual writing.


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## qwertyman (Sep 3, 2010)

caelum said:


> What? How'd you get that impression? Nope, I'm a 100% thoroughbred Canadian, though with a European ancestry.


It's your name...it's a Dutch airline!




			
				Josephb said:
			
		

> So if you have an idea for how it might work, try it. What you write might nail it -- or not. But you'll never get a real sense of it without getting some sort of feedback based on actual writing.


 
What, you mean post it again?


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## JosephB (Sep 3, 2010)

Post what again?


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## The Backward OX (Sep 3, 2010)

I'm with Joe. I've just read the entire thread, avidly - laughing myself silly at Foxee's eyeballs and wondering why querty didn't straight off get that Sam was taking the piss - and I didn't see a single indication that any piece of querty's, that this thread might relate to, had previously been posted.

So come on querty. For once you've got a good thread going. Why f**k it up now with a silly remark?





Oh, and my six pennorth is that you can start with dialogue. I'd read it.


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## Motley (Sep 3, 2010)

Changing your opening on the terse advice of one guy is silly, in my opinion.

However, I'm rather torn on the dialogue opening dilemma. I think a book needs to start with compelling information, and a lot of dialogue doesn't include that. For example, caelum's small exchange feels kinda like a plant to me. It's almost like telling the reader "hey.. there's some action going on."

Basically, I think whatever works, works. Whatever you put at the start - dialogue or exposition - has to give enough info to the reader to raise questions in their mind.


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## qwertyman (Sep 3, 2010)

The Backward OX said:


> I'm with Joe. I've just read the entire thread, avidly - laughing myself silly at Foxee's eyeballs and wondering why querty didn't straight off get that Sam was taking the piss - and I didn't see a single indication that any piece of querty's, that this thread might relate to, had previously been posted.


 


			
				qwerty said:
			
		

> However, a commonly held agreement on WF that it can work, seems to be in conflict with what 'editors' think. That's unusual.
> I can add that when I posted a piece opening with a telephone conversation, nobody on WF queried it.


 


			
				 Backward Ox said:
			
		

> Why f**k it up now with a silly remark?


 
Eh!


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## qwertyman (Sep 3, 2010)

Motley said:


> Changing your opening on the terse advice of one guy is silly, in my opinion.


 
I agree, but it was backed up by a second opinion from a heavyweight in another forum. 

Anyway that was the purpose of the post; to canvass opinion. I concur with everything else that you said.


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## The Backward OX (Sep 3, 2010)

qwertyman said:


> I can add that when I posted a piece opening with a telephone conversation, nobody on WF queried it.


 
The reason nobody on WF queried it must be because you posted it elsewhere and only think you posted it here. Do you think for one minute I would make a post such as I did without first going back and checking your threads in Workshop? _There are NO pieces opening with a telephone conversation_. I challenge you to post a link to the thread in question.


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## Like a Fox (Sep 3, 2010)

qwertyman said:


> However, a commonly held agreement on WF that it can work, seems to be in conflict with what 'editors' think. That's unusual.


I don't know if I think that's unusual. Asking a bunch of writers if something _can_ work is a bit of a no brainer. Most everyone should say yes, same as anything - "If you can pull it off."

An editor/publisher isn't looking at your work as a fellow artist there to encourage. They want to know if they can sell it. And starting in dialogue goes against the grain. And going against the grain could be the best thing you ever did and you could be the next big thing because you dared to push past the generally accepted norm for a first page of a novel. But it could also land you in all the 'no' piles.

What writers think is okay and what editors and publishers want aren't one and the same. I think publishers and editors are probably wrong to have so many hard and fast rules, and no doubt if they got into the story and decided it was great, they could be moved on their idea of not starting with dialogue. Seems like one of those things that's been taken too far for no great reason - A reader would deal just fine with dialogue. But you've gotta get it into their hands first.


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## The Backward OX (Sep 3, 2010)

...


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## Like a Fox (Sep 3, 2010)

Into the hands of readers. The book. It makes sense.


Edit = ^ For the record, Ox wrote "Hands?"


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## The Backward OX (Sep 3, 2010)

You're too quick on the draw. At first I thought you had meant publishers. Then I realised what you meant.


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## Like a Fox (Sep 3, 2010)

You're too keen to question my meaning.


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## The Backward OX (Sep 3, 2010)

Like a Fox said:


> I don't know if I think


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## Like a Fox (Sep 3, 2010)

Hahaha. Ass.


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## The Backward OX (Sep 3, 2010)

It's garza's little people


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## qwertyman (Sep 4, 2010)

The Backward OX said:


> The reason nobody on WF queried it must be because you posted it elsewhere and only think you posted it here. Do you think for one minute I would make a post such as I did without first going back and checking your threads in Workshop? _There are NO pieces opening with a telephone conversation_. I challenge you to post a link to the thread in question.


 
Grrrrr! I hate trawling through archive stuff.

http://www.writingforums.com/writers-workshop/73634-does-anyone-read-stuff-any-more.html

I wrote this as an excercise in first person, I had no idea starting with dialogue might be problematic.


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## The Backward OX (Sep 4, 2010)

Everyone, why don’t we have a little writing challenge, right here?

“Starting with dialogue”. 

Would this make you read on? 200 words.

‘If we move quickly we can have the gold out of the country before they even know it’s missing.’
‘Oh, sure, we can. All we need is a fast boat with a reinforced hull, a corruptible harbour official, and a moonless night.’
‘Now look, you two, stop arguing. Maybe we could do it that way, but you know how I love using outsiders. It’s a sure-fire way to create a weak link.’
‘So what does Mademoiselle Smartypants suggest?’
‘We go out openly, by road.’
‘What! The beaujolais has gone to your head. That’s madness!’
‘You guys. Where’s your imagination? I think we might all agree I can scrub up okay, when the need arises.’
‘Oui, okay, underneath the mud on your face, and the twigs caught in your hair, you’re la belle femme. How does that help?’ 
‘I simply motor up to the border, in the 2CV, a few minutes ahead of the pair of you hauling the gold in the Peugeot wagon. I engage the guards in a little mental foreplay before you arrive. They’ll be so keen to get back inside, to me, they’ll just wave you through without wasting time on a search. C’est magnifique, n'est-ce pas?’ 



The mind fair boggles.


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## qwertyman (Sep 4, 2010)

Like a Fox said:


> I don't know if I think that's unusual. Asking a bunch of writers if something _can_ work is a bit of a no brainer. Most everyone should say yes, same as anything - "If you can pull it off."


 
Quite so, or maybe, 'if it's well written'? This makes JoesphB's point:


			
				JoesephB said:
			
		

> Although you might get some interesting perspectives, what people think about things like this -- in a general sense -- doesn't really make that much difference. So if you have an idea for how it might work, try it. What you write might nail it -- or not. But you'll never get a real sense of it without getting some sort of feedback based on actual writing. unless it refers to a piece of text,


 



Like a Fox said:


> What writers think is okay and what editors and publishers want aren't one and the same..


 
Also true, but, as I said before there is enough common ground. And you have to give them the benefit of experience.


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## garza (Sep 4, 2010)

Yes, Ox, it would. I want to know if they made it, and as the story develops I want to know more about the three of them.


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