# Rifle Help!



## mg357 (Nov 7, 2013)

I am working on a fictional Novel featuring U.S. Army Special Forces Soldiers and i need some Rifle help.

My Favorite Military Rifle is the M14 and the special forces do use this rifle as a sniper rifle. 

but they don't use it as their standard issue service rifle in front line combat they use the M4 Carbine. 

but i don't like the M4 its to short to compact and its just plain ugly to me.

 i want the novel to be as historical accurate as possible and for it to be accurate they would have to use the M4 but i think the M4 Carbine is as ugly as sin and i would prefer to use the M14 Instead. 

I honestly don't know what to do 

Any and All help with this would be appreciated very much!


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## J Anfinson (Nov 7, 2013)

So what exactly is it that you want to know? What's the question?


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## FleshEater (Nov 7, 2013)

The Coast Guard still uses the jam-tastic M16.


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## The Tourist (Nov 7, 2013)

Have you tried Bing or Google?  You're referring to rifles that have around as long as I have.  There must be reams of info right at your fingertips.


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## Olly Buckle (Nov 7, 2013)

> i don't like the M4 its to short to compact


Capitalise I, 'you are important' as my teacher used to say and you want too as in too much or too many, well you did say any help 

Seriously, The Tourist is right, Google is your friend if you want information about the rifles, but I think you already know which ones they use. You could have your character bemoan the fact he hasn't got his favourite sniper rifle, and is stuck with this short, compact thing, which kills well and is an easy size to handle, but is aesthetically unpleasing. To be honest though it doesn't really seem to fit the character, rating the gun for looks against practical qualities, and short and compact sounds practical to me. I think you are either going to have to grin an bear it as he kills with an M4, or take him out of the service so he can use his own gun. Sorry, best I can suggest.


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## ppsage (Nov 7, 2013)

Bag the novel and blog about favorite guns firearms.


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## The Tourist (Nov 7, 2013)

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day..."

I'm a gun and knife guy who joined a writing forum for info and experience.  Ergo, he's a writer who should join a firearms forum for info and experience.

If we tell him what rifle, what it's called, where he can find it, and it's nickname, what have we really taught him?  So he spends a few hours doing research.  All of us had to do this before instant-cyber-everything.  He'll be a better writer this way.


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## mg357 (Nov 7, 2013)

J Anfinson: My question is what the heck do i do? 

Which Rifle do i chose do i chose the M14 Which i love or do i Chose the M4 Carbine that i hate a lot? 

I have researched both guns thoroughly but i am still stuck if i can't get this solved my novel will never get written and i want to write it very much.


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## FleshEater (Nov 7, 2013)

I have to ask, where are these special forces fighting? 

The M4 was shortened and designed for urban warfare. It is able to be manuevered down hallways, stairwells, etcetera. It's also the most accurate rifle the U.S. Military has implemented to date. Now, if they're in a foreign country, down and out, they could pick up and use an AK47 or AK74, heck, maybe even a Mosin Nagant that's floating around, but that seems like an unlikely situation. 

Also, using anything besides standard issue equipment can get you killed by friendly fire. Many of the troops in Nam ditched their M16's for the more reliable AK47, and if you've ever fired them side by side, they're noticeably different. So in turn, Americans were shooting Americans due to following the sound of the gun fire. 

Best to stick with real weapons that they would use in a real life situation.


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## The Tourist (Nov 7, 2013)

I know the rifle, but I think you should research it.  After all, one of the reasons lots of us pushed that over-50 section was to discuss issues like this.

I'll give you a hint.  If you view the early scenes of The Godfather, a shopkeeper comes to Marlin Brando, asking him, The Don, to help him avenge the rape of his daughter.  _The answer is there_.


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## J Anfinson (Nov 7, 2013)

Why not do some research on under what conditions a unit would issue the M14 instead, and base your story off that scenario?


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## Terry D (Nov 7, 2013)

The sort of fiction you seem to be writing appeals to people who like, I could even say 'demand', accuracy. If you put the wrong weapon in the hands of your characters without a good explanation it will damage your story.


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## The Tourist (Nov 7, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> Many of the troops in Nam ditched their M16's for the more reliable AK47.



Good point.  A better point, actually.

In keeping with your postulate, but placing it in modern times, I'd go Israeli.  The Galil.

Edit:  Ya' know, using a Galil or a Valmet solves a number of problems.  For one, not many people--or soldiers for that matter--have ever seen or fired one.  Certainly the diehard collectors might know details, but not the general reader.

A few days ago we had a thread discussing accuracy in geographical locations.  The modern consensus is that if you have most of the main details in place, the rest can easily be handled with poetic license.

The Galil, if memory serves, is made in four variations and two popular NATO cartridges.  One of them is the 7.62x51, the same as used in the M14.

Do a basic search, throw in some buzzwords, and write the story.  No one will notice.


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## FleshEater (Nov 7, 2013)

The Galil...ukel:


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## The Tourist (Nov 8, 2013)

Heck, I'd carry it.  A Kalashnikov on the top and an M-16 on the bottom.

Besides, how many Americans own one?  The writer can attach grenade launchers on it, IFF, lasers, floatation devices, non-lethal bean-bags, topped off with anti-radar chaff and most folks won't know the difference.

It's the perfect fictional firearm.  Hey, Ian Fleming wrote three James Bond novels and gave the spy with a "license to kill" a .25 ACP Beretta...


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## Lewdog (Nov 8, 2013)

My step-father was Army Special Forces and he said they all had to carry the same rifle, but they could chose what side arm they wanted to carry.  Many carried a side arm that used the same ammo as their rifle so they wouldn't have to carry two different types of ammo, but as Flesheater pointed out, the M16 sucked in wet muddy enviroments so they jammed quite often.  The soldiers would ditch their rifle and pick up the AFK47's because of their reliability.  My step-father said that for that reason alone, many soldiers would carry a more high powered side arm.


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## The Tourist (Nov 8, 2013)

Well, Lewdog, we have to remember the guy is writing a story, not outfitting real people.  I'm not sure people care anymore.  Let me give you an example.

One of the hottest pistols of the 1980s was the Bren Ten.  I owned one, a 4-inch, Special Forces model in light finish.  A hand built firearm.  The Norma ammo at that time was just short of one dollar per loaded round.  You could buy dies, and scrounge brass.  The problem owners perceived was getting bullets.  It was the new 10mm caliber.

I ordered casting blocks from Hensley & Gibbs, but they were going to take +3 months to fill the order.  I shot mine all of the time while others hunted around fruitlessly for ammo.

Now, that pistol was on the cover of every magazine.  Each article printed every nuance of the new pistol and cartridge.  It was no secret that the 10mm Auto fired a .401 bullet.  No one had any--or so all of these "experts" thought.

There was an old cartridge invented in the early 1870s called the .38-40.  While the name misled many, it too fired a .401 caliber bullet.  They sold those by the boxcar, and every shop I went to had plenty of them.

So it is with rifles in modern novels.  Just because a kid knows all of the factoids of a weapon doesn't mean he knows how to shoot one, clean one, or what magazines can interchange with other rifles--even from foreign countries.  They just want to read about something cool.

I'll bet not one in fifty know that a 357 SIG actually fires a 9mm bullet.

Besides, spec-ops boys can have any firearm or knife made for them to any specification.  Take, for example, the Welrod.

This writer could outfit the hero with a .416 Barrett, and I'll wager most deployed soldiers have never even seen one.  For the purposes of a yarn, it doesn't make much difference.

My EDC carry gun fires the 9mm Corto.  So where would I buy ammunition for it?


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## Lewdog (Nov 8, 2013)

I just thought it was an interesting fact that most people didn't know about Special Forces.  My step-father was a Ranger in Vietnam and he did a few tours there.  I thought it was interesting that they would be allowed to choose their side arm, and the knife they carried, but not the rifle.  He did point out to me, just how important the E-tool is.  "E" actually stands for 'entrenching' but all the soldiers say it stands for 'everything.'  It can be used for everything from digging a hole to use the bathroom in, to digging out a hole to sleep in, or be used in combat.

I guess it really depends on how serious of a story the OP wants to write.

Funny story, eventually my step-father was put on escort detail driving around big wigs.  He said one day they were hit with some kind of explosion and took heavy fire.  He grabbed the man he was escorting and pulled him behind the jeep that was up on its side.  He saved the life of then Major Colin Powell.


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## The Tourist (Nov 8, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> they would be allowed to choose their side arm, and the knife they carried, but not the rifle.



That's because ammunition was always a quartermaster's nightmare.  For handguns, the Vietnam era was either the .45 ACP, or in the case of the Air Force, the .38 SPL.  Some Ingrams were issued to spooks in .32 ACP.

But while "liberated" AKs were in fact used, there was the fear that captured Soviet ammo might be spiked.  Remington Peters tried to supply boxer primed American 7.62x39 ammunition, but I'm not sure if any was ever delivered.

That left the only reliable sources of ammunition to be the 5.56 NATO (which is not a direct derivative of our .223 Rem) and the 7.62x51, or as we know it, the .308 Win.


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## FleshEater (Nov 8, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Heck, I'd carry it.  A Kalashnikov on the top and an M-16 on the bottom.
> 
> Besides, how many Americans own one?  The writer can attach grenade launchers on it, IFF, lasers, floatation devices, non-lethal bean-bags, topped off with anti-radar chaff and most folks won't know the difference.
> 
> It's the perfect fictional firearm.  Hey, Ian Fleming wrote three James Bond novels and gave the spy with a "license to kill" a .25 ACP Beretta...



The Galil is the heaviest semi-automatic rifle, bare bones, that I've held in my hands. Extremely worthless in combat if you ask me. Which is why the OP should stick with the M4. Keep it real. Keep it simple. And like Terry said, readers of this genre will be expecting facts.


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## The Tourist (Nov 8, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> The Galil is the heaviest semi-automatic rifle, bare bones, that I've held in my hands.



The weight never bothered me much, that's what the gym is for.  I lugged an early HBAR all over creation here, and I built an AR with a thick Shilen barrel for prairie dogs out in the National Grasslands.  (see below)

The reason I like the Galil is that I think the Kalashnikov upper is a superior design to clean and other routine maintenance.  The lower takes common magazines in easily procured NATO calibers.

I want my stuff to go "bang" without excuses.  If I have to tote something heavier, that's just the buy-in.


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## Bloggsworth (Nov 8, 2013)

Have your hero as a maverick who uses a Kalashnikov...


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## The Tourist (Nov 8, 2013)

Bloggsworth said:


> Have your hero as a maverick who uses a Kalashnikov...



Why not really make him a maverick and have him carry a Krinkov?


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## Lewdog (Nov 8, 2013)

Or since the military is more open, have him carry a Baryshnikov.  :triumphant:


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## The Tourist (Nov 8, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> Or since the military is more open, have him carry a Baryshnikov.  :triumphant:



Why not?  It would be a nice change of pace from the spec-ops Mary Sue characters.  There are plenty of kinder-gentler rifles to go around.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=pink+ar-15&qpvt=pink+ar-15&FORM=IGRE


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## FleshEater (Nov 8, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> The weight never bothered me much, that's what the gym is for.  I lugged an early HBAR all over creation here, and I built an AR with a thick Shilen barrel for prairie dogs out in the National Grasslands.  (see below)
> 
> The reason I like the Galil is that I think the Kalashnikov upper is a superior design to clean and other routine maintenance.  The lower takes common magazines in easily procured NATO calibers.
> 
> I want my stuff to go "bang" without excuses.  If I have to tote something heavier, that's just the buy-in.



I can shovel and wheelbarrow dirt all day, but the last thing I want is to carry a heavy firearm all day, and even more so when the time comes to be precise. Especially if we're talking life and death. Hence why the M4 is used by the U.S. Military over any other firearm. It's deadly accurate, lighter weight, shorter than most rifles, and fairly reliable (there's no sense comparing reliability of an M4, AR15, or M16 to any Russian firearm).

However, we're not discussing personal likes or dislikes, but what the OP should do for his novel. My vote is still to keep it on par with the real world. If his special forces would carry an M4 in the real world, they should in his novel.


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## Lewdog (Nov 8, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> I can shovel and wheelbarrow dirt all day, but the last thing I want is to carry a heavy firearm all day, and even more so when the time comes to be precise. Especially if we're talking life and death. Hence why the M4 is used by the U.S. Military over any other firearm. It's deadly accurate, lighter weight, shorter than most rifles, and fairly reliable (there's no sense comparing reliability of an M4, AR15, or M16 to any Russian firearm).
> 
> However, we're not discussing personal likes or dislikes, but what the OP should do for his novel. My vote is still to keep it on par with the real world. If his special forces would carry an M4 in the real world, they should in his novel.



Might I add, at boot camp at Parris Island they also said one of the benefits was that it was easily assembled and disassembled, and if there was a malfunctioning part, since everyone carried the same rifle, replacement parts could easily be swapped out.  Cleaning one is a breeze.


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## J Anfinson (Nov 8, 2013)

Another option is to have the MC carry another common weapon, such as the M249. I had one during deployment. A blast to shoot, not so fun to carry around.


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## The Tourist (Nov 8, 2013)

Since this is a work of fiction, "practicality" actually means less than nothing.  Sure, access to spare parts and ample amounts of clean, reliable ammunition are needed in real life, but not in a story.  

If the writer deems it important to the story, he could arm the lead with a Enfield EM-2 Bullpup Assault Rifle, arguably the most useless weapon short of a wet brick.  As a parallel, do you really think San Francisco Police Inspectors were allowed to carry .44 Rem Mags?  In a movie they can.

The OP stated that he liked the M14 better than the Stoner based weapons.  If his story was about the Southern Struggle For Independence I could see a problem.  But modern era soldiers still carry 1911s, variants of the M14 just as MACV-SOG had their own version of the Bowie.

We might offer the OP a range of items to research, but it's not a real soldier, guys.  It's for a character in a book.


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## Lewdog (Nov 8, 2013)

He could be like Jesse Ventura in _Predator_ and carry a huge 7.62 caliber minigun.


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## The Tourist (Nov 8, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> He could be like Jesse Ventura in _Predator_ and carry a huge 7.62 caliber minigun.



LOL.  I can see the book's manuscript now.

The beta remarks, _"Jesse, what's with the GE minigun, you're just a character in a science fiction drama."_

The SEAL mulls that over and retorts, _"Fiction, eh?  I ain't got time to read..."_


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## Lewdog (Nov 8, 2013)

Oh here is another good fictional gun.  I guess if you are going to go big, go huge!  It's just a story right?


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## The Tourist (Nov 8, 2013)

I think the classic misuse of a fictional firearm was in the video game "Metal Gear Solid."  On one of the boss levels, there was a character using the cannon from an A-10 Warthog, which he carried, ammo and all.

But to come full circle, did the OP find his weapon?


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## Lewdog (Nov 8, 2013)

Ok if you haven't found it yet, the Army Special Forces don't use the M16, they use the same rifle that has been all over the news because of it being used in gun shootings in the U.S.  It's the M4A1 Carbine.  



> M4A1 carbine (5.56x45mm NATO) (USSOCOM, US Army, USAF, SEALs and select USMC units)



You can find a list of guns here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_individual_weapons_of_the_U.S._armed_forces#In_active_service_3


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## mg357 (Nov 9, 2013)

The Tourist yes as a matter i did find the rifle i want to use in my Novel after reading everybodies replies to this thread i chose the M4 Carbine.


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## The Tourist (Nov 9, 2013)

mg357 said:


> The Tourist yes as a matter i did find the rifle i want to use in my Novel after reading everybodies replies to this thread i chose the M4 Carbine.



We go through all of this and you pick the weapon you originally said was "short and ugly"?

Did you do any research, any at all?


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## mg357 (Nov 9, 2013)

Yes as a matter of fact i did ton's and ton's of research on both the M14 & the M4 Carbine and despite that research i still needed the help that i got from this forum and i am glad i got it.


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## The Tourist (Nov 9, 2013)

Tell us about the makes, models and variants you rejected.


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## mg357 (Nov 9, 2013)

Well at first i was going to arm the Special Forces team with Mossberg brand 12 gauge pump action shotguns but since the team was going to be doing some long range shooting i knew i shotgun would not be appropriate since a shotgun is better at medium or short range shooting. so i decided a rifle would be better, so i looked at the M16 since it a rather long gun and the caliber is not that effective at very long range either I put that one aside. 
So i looked at the M14 since it shoots are large caliber cartridge and has a great deal of killing power at close range and long range. 

But when i researched it i found out that the US Special Forces use the M14 as a sniper rifle i thought about making my SF Team a unit of snipers but that would be unwise since some of their missions would require them to raid a building a sniper rifle would not work in that environment. 

So i thought of the M4 Carbine but more i read about it the more i disliked it. 

so i decided that i needed to look at the M14 and the M4 Carbine side by side but the more i compared those two rifles the more my head hurt.

 so i decided to post my problem here on the forum Hoping and praying that i could get some help with this Matter.


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## The Tourist (Nov 9, 2013)

What was the problem with the 6.8 mm Remington SPC?  It works with existing platforms, and while the Marines didn't like it, the "black op boys" have lots of uses for more knock-down power, non-conventional armament that doesn't scream "American," and can use existing spare parts.


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## mg357 (Nov 9, 2013)

Well i thought it would be best to stick with a common military cartridge a cartridge that All my readers would be famliar with.


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## The Tourist (Nov 9, 2013)

mg357 said:


> Well i thought it would be best to stick with a common military cartridge a cartridge that All my readers would be famliar with.



You OP said "special forces."  Their weapons and ammunition differ.  Marcincko reported that his SEALs used stainless SW revolvers and French dive tanks.


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## The Tourist (Nov 9, 2013)

I'll be open on why I'm corresponding here.  I don't mind helping a fellow writer, but the gun guys here shouldn't have to write your novel from you.  Oh, and we correspond by PM amongst ourselves...

I don't think you did any research, not a shred.  You stated two things, one that the M14 is not used, and now you say that you want to use standard parts.  Both of those issues could have been solved on the first google research.

The M14, and it's variants are still be used, still being issued and with a cartridge still valued by snipers.  Below is an example at least two gun guy members simply pulled from memory, it's clearly a M14, and so common that you and I can buy one today--and hold it in our hands.

It fires the NATO 7.62x51, which deerhunters know as the .308 Winchester.  You can find that ammunition on the shelves of any hardware store.  You can even find it in 165 grain and 168 grain bullets--the same ones the Marine snipers use currently.

I think you just wanted some easy info, were "too busy" to do the work yourself, and posted a thread.  Why do you think us graybeards ran you around the mulberry bush?  Any simple google search could have gotten you every iota I just posted on your first try.  So let me ask you again, just what did you do?  

http://www.fulton-armory.com/fultonarmoryusriflecal762mmm14-1-1-1-1-1-1-1.aspx


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## Gargh (Nov 10, 2013)

^There's a lot of supposition there and there's no need to be confrontational.



mg357 said:


> Well I thought it would be best to stick with a common military cartridge a cartridge that All my readers would be famliar with.



Probably best; unless the type of gun is a key plot-determiner, giving it too much attention will probably distract from the plot.



J Anfinson said:


> Why not do some research on under what conditions a unit would issue the M14 instead, and base your story off that scenario?



I liked this idea. If you really can't get the M14 out of your mind for its aesthetic qualities then you could use it in other stories about the same world. You know, write a short spin-off story from your original in which the MC uses it in a particular operation? It could be a good character-building exercise anyway.


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## The Tourist (Nov 10, 2013)

Gargh said:


> ^There's a lot of supposition there and there's no need to be confrontational.



By definition, a forum is a place for discussion.  It is my position that an important element of "creative" writing, that being due diligence in research, was skipped over for expediency.

He can come here and state his case anytime.

And let's not shoot the messenger.  The "gun guys" of this forum were discussing the issue that night.  To a man, we all thought that info the OP needed was simply a mouse-click away.

Ya' know, the graybeards took it on the chin over a desire for an over-50 section.  While the younger members said there was no need, a moderator here wrote me a PM and stated their attitude as "vitriol."  Here's a classic case of what's needed in writing.

Research, a work ethic, honesty and creativity are aspects of good writers.  And at the end of the day my aged Aunt Clara could easily sign on the 'net and find reams of information for a 60 year old platform like a M14.

Because of these events, I'm changing my stance on helping.  "Enabling" is not being a good mentor.


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## Lewdog (Nov 10, 2013)

I think what it comes down to, is a problem between generations.  I understand the reason for a research section.  I've asked questions myself, but it was only after spending a good deal of time searching myself.  I think it had to do with the return value of bottle in the 1930's, and the cost of a pack of baseball cards, which I later found myself.  So I believe the frustration here lies in the lack of effort to find the answer before asking the question.  It brings angst similar to how people reacted when people would star writer's block threads or other threads of similar content.  No biggie, it'll pass and people will learn.  Tomorrow is another day.

:razz:


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## mg357 (Nov 10, 2013)

Thank you to all of you for all of your help on this matter i appreciate it very much.


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## The Tourist (Nov 10, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> I think what it comes down to, is a problem between generations.  I understand the reason for a research section.



Lewdog, out of respect for your privacy I had not mentioned your name, but I am glad you came forward.

Your comment on the generations and research may indeed be true.  For example, a few weeks ago Pandora was kind enough to offer help with my poetry.  I had not studied sonnets in decades--first stop, research.

From that vantage point I knew I could begin to ask her questions on improvements.  Knowing that I had been sincere she would confidently offer critiques, rhyme scheme corrections and topics.  A very different outcome from the trend here.

BTW, since research does mean differing ideology to folks, I no longer give knife related comments (suggestions on brands or sharpening procedures) in _any forum_.  For me it's part of my livelihood, the kids should be doing research anyway.  My fee is 75 dollars per hour as a consultant.  I don't even post in any thread using the word "knife."

If you have the chops to send 1,000 texts per month then you have ample thumb strength to enter "blade" into google.


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## Gargh (Nov 10, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> By definition, a forum is a place for discussion.



Absolutely. What you have done here;



The Tourist said:


> I'll be open on why I'm corresponding here.  I don't mind helping a fellow writer, but the gun guys here shouldn't have to write your novel from you.  Oh, and we correspond by PM amongst ourselves...
> 
> I don't think you did any research, not a shred.  You stated two things, one that the M14 is not used, and now you say that you want to use standard parts.  Both of those issues could have been solved on the first google research.
> 
> ...



however, is offered an unsolicited, unkind and unsubstantiated opinion about the person who asked the question _NOT _about the research.

Besides, advising the OP to do their research on Google isn't exactly the most reliable advice. The internet's full of random, egotistical, uncorroborated opinions that just aren't as helpful as talking things through with genuinely interested, open-minded people.


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## mg357 (Nov 10, 2013)

Gargh: Thank you


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## The Tourist (Nov 10, 2013)

Gargh said:


> however, is offered an unsolicited, unkind and unsubstantiated opinion about the person who asked the question _NOT _about the research.



That's not research.  You don't take a singular piece of information and build an entire house of cards.  We're not chasing urban legends here.

The two main items were delineations of the Eugene Stoner design, and a sixty year old, well established rifle beloved by the Marines.  Doing even sloppy research would uncover more than enough information to document any plot twist you can name.

I once heard a quote saying that there was trail akin to a "wounded elephant trudging through four feet of fresh powder."  In other words, any key search word would have got you on the scent.

There was no, zero, zip, zilch research done at all.

I went to Bing and simply typed "M14."  I got *5,650,000 results*.

Then to Bing again and typed "Eugene Stoner."  I got *207,000 results*.


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## FleshEater (Nov 10, 2013)

Gargh was referring to these parts:



The Tourist said:


> I'll be open on why I'm corresponding here.  I don't mind helping a fellow writer, but the gun guys here shouldn't have to write your novel from you.  Oh, and we correspond by PM amongst ourselves...
> 
> I don't think you did any research, not a shred.  You stated two things, one that the M14 is not used, and now you say that you want to use standard parts.  Both of those issues could have been solved on the first google research.
> 
> I think you just wanted some easy info, were "too busy" to do the work yourself, and posted a thread.  Why do you think us graybeards ran you around the mulberry bush?  Any simple google search could have gotten you every iota I just posted on your first try.  So let me ask you again, just what did you do?


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## The Tourist (Nov 10, 2013)

FleshEater, at this point we're beating a dead horse.  In fact, we have morphed into a very important aspect of writing, that being, research on any topic.  The OP needs to research firearms just as I need to research poetry.  

Yeah, I'm hard on the OP.  Frankly, _I should be_.  What would be the outcome if I sat here and wrote, _"I need help finding info on Emily Dickinson, anyone know where to look?"_

My guess is that Pandi and Gumby would be on me like a duck on a June-bug!  The issue centering  on firearms is moot.  The overall concept should be a mainstay in crafting our stories.

You guys can argue about this more if you want to.  This issue was poorly handled, but I'm out now.  You can spin this anyway you want.  But with hundreds of thousands of leads at your fingertips, any positive slant you want to create would be a better example of fiction than the original story.


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## FleshEater (Nov 10, 2013)

I get that. What's being pointed out, however, is you expressing opinions about the author of the thread, as opposed to only staying on topic. Yes, some people just show up here and ask questions without researching. So what? If you feel that way, don't respond. By not responding, you force them to do research if you truly believe they did none of their own. Simple.


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## squidtender (Nov 10, 2013)

*​this thread needs to be on topic. If you've answered the question, then thank you for your help. Now move on. *


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## mg357 (Nov 11, 2013)

Thank you squidtender


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