# Is there a way for a person to find out when a police shootout is happening?



## ironpony (Jun 4, 2020)

For my story, there is a shootout between the police and the villains, and I want the main cop character's wife to find out about it, because I want to get her in the same place at the same time as the other characters.

So she would have to find out that this shootout is happening and go there out of concern, I'm thinking.  But is there a way she could find out about it, as it's happening in real time, rather than hearing about it later?

Police use encrypted radios, so police scanners are out when it comes to finding out about it, but are there other ways she could?


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## Sir-KP (Jun 4, 2020)

- Live news
- Overheard other people's murmur
- Uhh... police radio duplicate at home, because why not?


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## ironpony (Jun 4, 2020)

Sir-KP said:


> - Live news
> - Overheard other people's murmur
> - Uhh... police radio duplicate at home, because why not?



Oh okay, well I don't want the news to cover it since I want some things to happen during the shootout, that the media cannot see.  So no one can know about it, until later on.  The police radio may work, but wouldn't cops not want to use radios that anyone can listen in on, and thus everyone knows their plans?


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## Winston (Jun 4, 2020)

People use to use "police scanners" to listen in, but the criminal element found that this was a useful tool as well.
With the transfer of more and more military-style tech to law enforcement, most departments now use scrambled, encoded radios.  

You can still eavesdrop on police calls, but it is much, much harder.


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## ironpony (Jun 4, 2020)

Yeah that makes sense.  Well let's say the main cop character's wife is concerned about him since he is really risking his life, and wants to find out where he is, and go there, since I want her to be in the same place and time of the events.  How would she find out where he is, in a way that would logically work?  I could write it so that she follows him from home, cause she is concerned, but she would have to follow him to six more stops before the one I want her at.  So would he realize he was being followed at that point?


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## Winston (Jun 4, 2020)

> Well let's say the main cop character's wife is concerned about him since he is really risking his life, and wants to find out where he is, and go there, since I want her to be in the same place and time of the events. How would she find out where he is, in a way that would logically work?



Most police are normal folks, like the rest of us.  They carry cell phones.  You might find an angle there.


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## ironpony (Jun 4, 2020)

Oh okay, well how would you track a cell phone though? Plus would police want their cell phones being tracked?


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## Bloggsworth (Jun 4, 2020)

Yes, it's on the police twitter feed...


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## Olly Buckle (Jun 4, 2020)

I'd go for simple coincidence, she is on her way to the library, or whatever, and sees her man. It seems unlikely but authors do it all the time and their readers don't notice, they are not critiquing the story like us or your friends would be, they are listening to it for entertainment.


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## ironpony (Jun 4, 2020)

Oh okay, well this is during the climax though, so will readers notice a coincidence if it's during the climax?


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## Olly Buckle (Jun 6, 2020)

If you think about it almost any story is full of coincidence and unlikely happenings, it would simply be writing about everyday life without them. As I remember you pretty well start off with the coincidence of the police officer seeing the villains' car and taking off after it. If you want to soften it a bit introduce it earlier as a regular habit of hers and the audience will be ahead of you, "Oh, she always goes to the library down that way, bet she's going to turn up.". Up to you whether you do something like that or not, but coincidence is one of the main basis for story telling.


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## ironpony (Jun 6, 2020)

Oh okay, I was always afraid to use coincidences because other sources say it's bad or lazy to use them.  Like this sources, for example, unless they are wrong?:

https://www.helpingwritersbecomeauthors.com/coincidences-fiction-youre-wrong/

https://theeditorsblog.net/2012/01/20/coincidence-destroys-the-suspension-of-disbelief/


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## Olly Buckle (Jun 6, 2020)

Neither of them says don't ever use coincidence, they both say *poorly written* coincidence is a turn off. They both give examples of coincidence in all sorts of stories from Dickens to Starwars. They both suggest some sort of 'foreshadowing' similar to what I suggested in the last part of my post after "You could soften it a bit..."


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## ironpony (Jun 6, 2020)

Oh okay.  That's true.  I could also write it so that the person follows the police to the shooting, since she has motive to follow them.  But would the police realize they are being followed, especially if they have to make a few stops first at different places to investigate, first?


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## apocalypsegal (Jun 11, 2020)

She thinks her husband is cheating on her, so she puts an app on his phone to track him with GPS. I'd believe that a lot more than she just coincidentally sees him going somewhere on her way to the library. I've lived in very small towns, and I can count the number of times this has happened to me without a problem. It's zero times, if you are wondering.

Of course, like others have said, you need to foreshadow anything you need to make the plot work.


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## Olly Buckle (Jun 12, 2020)

Small town, hmm, makes me wonder how far off she is? Within earshot of the sound of gunfire? Mind you, if that were me it would send me in the opposite direction


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## ironpony (Jun 16, 2020)

Oh okay thanks.  Well if she thinks her husband is the one in the gunfight, then she might approach to be curious?  I could go with something like that.  Thanks


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## Xander416 (Jun 20, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thanks.  Well if she thinks her husband is the one in the gunfight, then she might approach to be curious?  I could go with something like that.  Thanks


Generally, most people not trained to deal with such a situation will not run into a gunfight because they think someone they know might be involved. The only situations I could envision someone doing so is A) that person is armed and trained to neutralize the shooter(s) or B) is a parent whose child is caught in the crossfire, because paternal instinct will almost always override any sense of self-preservation.


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## ironpony (Jun 21, 2020)

Oh okay, well I wanted the main character's wife to become part of the situation, and her worrying to run in was the best way I could think of to get her involved, unless I am wrong?


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## Olly Buckle (Jun 23, 2020)

One forgets that American police carry guns all the time, over here if police met a situation they would have to call in an armed response unit and several other units would also respond and seal off the area, she wouldn't have a hope of running in and getting involved. Sometimes England seems quite a good place to live


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## ironpony (Jun 23, 2020)

Oh okay, but if she feels her husband is in danger, wouldn't she feel compelled to try to run it to see what is going to happen with him, even if there are guns present?


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## Olly Buckle (Jun 23, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, but if she feels her husband is in danger, wouldn't she feel compelled to try to run it to see what is going to happen with him, even if there are guns present?


I didn't suggest otherwise, you are in America and she is American. I was simply commenting on the difference, I am in England.


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## ironpony (Jun 24, 2020)

Oh okay, sorry, if I got confused.  Are you saying she wouldn't be able to get in if guns are going off if it's America?


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## Olly Buckle (Jun 24, 2020)

No, I was saying she wouldn't if it was England. English Cops don't routinely carry guns, so there are no casual, disorganised shoot outs. A perimeter would be established in England before the police fired a shot.
I know your story is located in America, I was really only commenting on the difference between our societies. Personally I prefer living here where guns require a hard to get license, the police come down hard on gun crime and any sort of unlicensed possession, and courts hand out heavy sentences.


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## Xander416 (Jun 24, 2020)

Olly Buckle said:


> One forgets that American police carry guns all the time


It's America, kindergartners are packing Glocks with extended mags. lol



ironpony said:


> Oh  okay, but if she feels her husband is in danger, wouldn't she feel  compelled to try to run it to see what is going to happen with him, even  if there are guns present?


I've read lots of stories in the  news about shootouts between police and criminals and I've never once  heard of the husband or wife of an involved officer rushing unarmed into  them to aid their spouse. In fact, the vast majority are over and done  with seconds, or at most a few minutes, after they start, long before  anyone except the participants themselves could become aware of them and  get to the location. The rest are situations like  this that no one  in their right mind would want to rush unarmed into.



Olly Buckle said:


> One forgets that American police carry guns all the time, over here if police met a situation they would have to call in an armed response unit and several other units would also respond and seal off the area, she wouldn't have a hope of running in and getting involved. Sometimes England seems quite a good place to live


I can fully admit that freedom and liberty isn't for everyone.


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## ironpony (Jun 24, 2020)

Oh okay.  Well let's say I want to get the villains and the police officers and the main character's wife, all in the same place at the same time...  The officers want to go after the villains so they have a reason to be in the same place and time.  The villains want to get together to protect themselves as a group, so they have a reason to all be there.  But if the main character's wife, not being concerned about him is enough motivation for her to be there, what would be enough motivation to get her there then?


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## Olly Buckle (Jun 24, 2020)

ironpony said:


> But if the main character's wife, not being concerned about him is enough motivation for her to be there, what would be enough motivation to get her there then?



I think you mean 'If being concerned about him is not enough motivation, what would be?' That's tough, I can't see her being there because of a stronger motivation.

In that case I think you will have to forget motivation and make it coincidence as I think was suggested earlier.

You know the lady, what might she be leaving? A gym, a burger bar, a hairdresser, a dressmaker. Make use of the opportunity to build on her character. 

If it is in character it will seem more natural for her to be there as well


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## ironpony (Jun 24, 2020)

Oh okay, I guess I just am having a lot of trouble swallowing a coincidence, that the main cop character who has been on the villains case the whole time, and now has finally found where the villains are secretly meeting up, just so happens to be coincidentally, in the same place as his wife would be for some reason, and at the same time of the villains meeting, she is there as well.

I feel I am having trouble making it work, where I believe, so I thought maybe motivation is the better way to go, or at least, I find myself having trouble swallowing the coincidence for some reason.

Even if I set it up before a coincidence beforehand, it still feels like, "what are the odds" to me.


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## Xander416 (Jun 24, 2020)

Yeah, your best reason for this course of events is for your cop's wife to just coincidentally be in the location on unrelated business, like Olly said. As someone told you in another thread, all life is is a big series of coincidences. Some coincidences can be too overt to be believable (such as driving down a deserted highway and running out of gas only to find a full can of unleaded hidden in a bush on the side of the road right where your car came to a stop), but there's nothing unusual about two people who know each other unintentionally crossing paths in a city. Happens all the time.


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## ironpony (Jun 25, 2020)

Xander416 said:


> Yeah, your best reason for this course of events is for your cop's wife to just coincidentally be in the location on unrelated business, like Olly said. As someone told you in another thread, all life is is a big series of coincidences. Some coincidences can be too overt to be believable (such as driving down a deserted highway and running out of gas only to find a full can of unleaded hidden in a bush on the side of the road right where your car came to a stop), but there's nothing unusual about two people who know each other unintentionally crossing paths in a city. Happens all the time.



Oh okay, thanks.  But does it seem strange in a story for a coincidence to happen during the climax? I mean you never see them happen during a climax, so I wonder if that feels lazy therefore?

Or I guess I just need to know why a coincidence is better than motivation, because then I feel I can write the coincidence better if I know why it is better?


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## luckyscars (Jun 25, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, thanks.  But does it seem strange in a story for a coincidence to happen during the climax? I mean you never see them happen during a climax, so I wonder if that feels lazy therefore?
> 
> Or I guess I just need to know why a coincidence is better than motivation, because then I feel I can write the coincidence better if I know why it is better?



Coincidences _often _happen during the climax, it's frequently how you achieve resolution from within the story. 

I think you have coincidence mixed up with deus ex machina.


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## ironpony (Jun 25, 2020)

Oh okay, well what are some story examples, where a coincidence is used in the climax then, since I have never seen it done before than I can recall?


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## Olly Buckle (Jun 25, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, well what are some story examples, where a coincidence is used in the climax then, since I have never seen it done before than I can recall?



I don't quite believe this, is it that you remember very little of the films you have seen; that you are totally devoid of imagination and looking to crib a story line from elsewhere; that you do not recognise a coincidence for what it is when it is well crafted? 
I do hope you are not casting aspersions on Lucky's honesty, I assure you he is quite right. I am not a great film buff, in fact I am not one at all   but thinking of the book of the film I thought of my namesake, Oliver. Twist not Buckle  Dickens wrote massive co-incidences into that plot line, and the villain just happens to slip and hang himself at the vital moment. Did they make a film of Jane Eyre? Someone must have. The coincidence of her being thrown off the coach in the middle of a moor, seeing a light, desperately seeking shelter, and discovering it is some relative that lives there in the middle of nowhere is a pretty big coincidence. That was written in 1847 and it is still known to a huge audience.

Tell you what, we could start a thread in games where you find the coincidence in the movie left by the last player, then name a movie yourself for the next player. We could make it book or movie.


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## ironpony (Jun 25, 2020)

Oh sorry, I don't mean to make it sound like I am casting doubt on Lucky, it's just I do not recall ever seen a movie that ended in a coincidence for the climax.  I've seen lots of movies, but do not recall a single one where that happened.


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## Theglasshouse (Jun 25, 2020)

I can think of one everyone knows. Star Wars and Darth Vader's identity which is revealed at the climax along with luke skywalker. Why not start a game with your questions of coincidences? Or with movies with detectives or police? Look up the log line of the movie and if interested watch it. Olly Buckle makes a good suggestion. Starting a game such as on movies can get you started on what to study and to see or even read.


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## ironpony (Jun 25, 2020)

Oh okay thanks, it's just I cannot think of any movies that do it.  I didn't think Star Wars counted as a coincidence, because Darth Vader revealing his identity is a reveal, and that is different than a coincidence, isn't it?


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## Theglasshouse (Jun 25, 2020)

I didn't read all this thread but I did read this page. To me it seems a coincidence all right because the villain happens to be his family. Which is near the end of the movie. Also, instead of it being positive it means trouble and creates a more complex character. That's what you want in a coincidence, trouble. According to debra dixon whose book I bought a long time ago. She say coincidence is useful to create conflict and not solve it. Solving it by coincidence would be deus ex machina in the conflict. In ancient Greece it meant the gods literally appeared in the play and solved all the problems instead of the character.


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## ironpony (Jun 25, 2020)

That's true it's not technically a deus ex machina, but it does feel highly unlikely and arbitrary though, and that's why it bothers me.  Unless highly unlikely and arbitrary are a good thing?


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## Olly Buckle (Jun 25, 2020)

I am not at all sure 'good things' and 'bad things' exist in writing. Even unconventional grammar or spelling can serve a purpose, so why not anything else? What it really depends on is how good the writer is at their job of creating a believable, fictional, world. Not at how good they are at following some artificial rule system, whether that be using coincidence to create conflict, but not to resolve it, spelling a word a particular way and not another, or following the rules set out in a prescriptive grammar and denying the validity of a descriptive grammar because it describes something that does not conform to those rules.

I am not saying there is no good writing or bad writing, there is, but what makes it good or bad is dictated by the author's ability to make the improbable convincing.
Take a simple example. A bear that comes from Peru, speaks English, wears clothes and a hat, lives with a human family and eats marmalade sandwiches is off the scale for unlikely, but Paddington bear works. If you write it well people will suspend their disbelief in anything, they won't be saying, "No no, Peruvian bears don't look like that, and bread and marmalade would make them ill."

For the coincidence to work it has to be believed, that is more likely if the character is doing something in character. "Okay, thanks but what would be in character?". I don't know, she is your character, you created her. "Okay, thanks, but how do I go about this?" Place bum on chair in front of keyboard and write, then assess what you have written and either rewrite or edit it, taking that assessment into account. "Okay, thanks, but could you do this for me?" NO.


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## ironpony (Jun 25, 2020)

Oh okay thanks.  One thing I thought of was to make the main character cop's wife a cop as well, but would it be weird if a husband and wife cop are both working the same case, or any conflicts of interest there?


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## Theglasshouse (Jun 25, 2020)

One thing that I discovered about plotting a story is you need to ask questions to yourself. Why can't they have it is an important question. Why can't you leave the house? Because I feel sick. Because I can't take care of myself. Becuase I need to make friends (previously I asked about it and got a different answer). Asking why is important. I enjoy playing sports. What is the worst thing that can happen? I broke my leg. I lacked those simple explanations in writing. But that's how you interview yourself to create conflict. Obstacles, are for when a goal is declared and something or some force is preventing the character from getting it. Again you ask a question and your mind gives a good answer. Could be a character, nature, machine, society, and so on. What things happen that make the goal harder to attain? Thus, what is another important question. 

I bought lots of books in the past but these are the basics. That's how you brainstorm. They were so theoretical I learned nothing. Ironically my advice is taken from a book on creative writing for school children that got to the point of what conflict is and how to come up with it. There are so many bad craft books out there.


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## ironpony (Jun 25, 2020)

Oh okay.  What if you want a character to complete a goal, but you cannot find away for them to do it, and becomes a trap of tic-tac-toe where you just cannot find a clear path, without raising questions of logic?  Am I doing something wrong, if I have a goal that is perhaps unattainable?


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## luckyscars (Jun 25, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thanks, it's just I cannot think of any movies that do it.  I didn't think Star Wars counted as a coincidence, because Darth Vader revealing his identity is a reveal, and that is different than a coincidence, isn't it?



Pick a movie, any movie, and (assuming I have seen it) I will most likely be able to tell you how it uses coincidence. It's that common.

- Star Wars: Vader is Luke's father -- definitely a big coincidence! Of all the people in the galaxy the protagonist and antagonist just so happen to be related, resolving the character arcs of both.

(there's actually a lot of coincidence running through Star Wars. Take something really simple, like the width of an X-Wing fighter and how it _just so happens _to be the exact right size to fly down that alleyway-thing on the surface of the Death Star? Or the fact that Luke is able to use the force at the _exact right moment _to shoot the missile through the gap? Or the fact that such a weak spot existed in the first place?)

- Indiana Jones: The Ark of the Covenant j_ust so happens_ not to kill you if you keep your eyes shut and Indiana _just so happened_ to know this in advance where as all the Nazis j_ust so happened_ not to know it so they died and Indy escapes.

- The Matrix: Neo _just so happens _to realize his abilities when he has bullets being fired at him, which allows him to survive and prevail.

There's honestly so many examples of this it's almost expected. 

That said, I don't think you HAVE to rely on coincidence to achieve a good climax, only that it's difficult not to use it at all to move a plot and still resolve different strands. It's basically the Chekov's gun theory: Everything *in* a story should contribute *to* the story. If that is true, that everything in a story should contribute to the story, it's difficult to achieve an 'ending' without relying on at least a few coincidences to bring disparate characters, items and events together. Actively trying not to include coincidence in writing is like actively trying not to use the letter 'e': It's possible, but it's limiting.

In deus ex machina you're relying on something from completely outside the story to resolve the ending. Not all coincidences are deus ex machina, although all deus-ex-machinas are coincidences. While there are some good examples of deus ex machina working well, most of the time it's hackish and lazy. Coincidences, on the other hand, can range from poorly done to poetic brilliance.


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## ironpony (Jun 25, 2020)

Oh okay.  Well it was said before that if I want to the villains, the cops, and the main character's wife to all be in the same place, at the same  time for my climax, then to have is so she is there by coincidence.  However, if she is in the building though, the villains would not use that building to do a crime in if they have no privacy.  So if I put her in there as a coincidence, it changes the villains motivation's for being there then, and that's bad though, if their motivations are going to be changed, if I were to use a coincidence, wouldn't it?


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## Theglasshouse (Jun 25, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay.  What if you want a character to complete a goal, but you cannot find away for them to do it, and becomes a trap of tic-tac-toe where you just cannot find a clear path, without raising questions of logic?  Am I doing something wrong, if I have a goal that is perhaps unattainable?



Part of plotting is withholding the answers of questions. If I make up and lie for every question when I ask why is my goal being thwarted:  What is preventing me from following this woman who I heard they want to kill. She thinks I am a compulsive liar. She thinks I am deceitful and double-dealing. I use to work in a circus and was famous. She thinks I take advantage of people. For all I know this suggests a deceitful character.

Make the goal simple and urgent. That might help. I honestly am showing you a method that is different and that some people use. Not every method works for every writer. The goal is to think of many ideas and narrow down which conflict or idea you like the most. Most people for all I know (or do not know) do ask different questions to their characters to get an idea for what their plot will be about.

This is just an idea. For example every character might have a different personality and different approach to solving a problem. One might be mostly teacherly, the other might be a sly trickster. This strategy helps with conflict. So for my idea it's a decent way to build conflict since each behaves differently. You need 2 characters for conflict. I still don't know how to write a goal for a character that might fit with screenwriting. Most of my works have been desires that characters think off after incidents (I write short stories). That is when something happens the character will want to do something to fix it. So this is how I write conflict, but not the goal. Sorry I don't know yet how to. I am researching ways. But I know a goal must be concrete, and sometimes there are smaller goals like in screenplays which is much longer than a short story. Since I am ordering a book on playwriting (similar to screenwriting). I will let you know if I come up with an answer. But be patient since I have had problems recently and the mailing system is slow.


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## ironpony (Jun 26, 2020)

Oh okay thanks.  You don't have to do that for me, but thanks!  I don't think my problem is withholding answers, just trying to come up with answers that work perhaps, once they are revealed, if that makes sense?


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