# Can One Be TOO Ambitious??



## T.S.Bowman (Sep 8, 2014)

I have seen several people here mention their WIP as being a multi book series.

A friend of mine is working on a project that involves a full novel, with the same groups of characters, for each sign of the Zodiac.

That kind of thing seems like an awful lot for someone who, maybe, has had a short story or two published, but never a novel.

I understand that people need to write what "floats their boat" so to speak. But is there such a thing as taking on a project that is WAY too big for your current writing ability level? Not that that would be the case with her...just in general.

Does taking on such a large project more often lead to incomplete work or failure in general?

I am 85,000 works into my novel and just recently came up with a tiny idea for, perhaps, maybe a second book starring my MC. 

Maybe it's just me. But it seems like a multi book thing would be a little bit too much to chew on.


----------



## Gavrushka (Sep 8, 2014)

I'd never knock ambition and would always advise any writer to get the story out first, however many volumes it may occupy, and then refine it later.

Four years ago I wrote Harvester I (160,000 words) and a year later I wrote the sequel (170,000 words)... They were poorly written, but the story was told... - I even rewrote the first book again, but still substandard...

...Cut to now, and I've split the first book into two, completed the first one and am 50,000 words into the second. - They're well written, entertained an array of demanding beta readers and, after a lot of editing and redrafting, they will be good enough for publication (I'll even make a pitch to a few agents before self-publishing.)

IF someone had told me I was not up to it four years ago, I'd not have the story to draw upon now.

So no, ambition is to be encouraged, but tempered by common sense and wrapped in a huge blanket labelled patience.


----------



## Sam (Sep 8, 2014)

I penned a 150k novel as a 16-year-old kid who, up until then, had never written much more than a few incoherent scribbles on the back of a file block in school. I finished the next novel in the series before my 18th birthday, and the one after that before my 20th. 

I had no grounding in the arts, never took any creative writing classes, never read any guides, but just got stuck in and figured everything out through trial and error. I wrote the fourth, fifth, and sixth novels in the series before my 24th birthday, at which point I decided to return to university, mainly because tackling such an ambitious project gave me the confidence to know I could take on anything. 

Your friend has a couple of short stories published. I didn't even write a short story before tackling my first novel.


----------



## Sc0pe (Sep 8, 2014)

I have written the start of a story that I use to tell when i was a child but due to losing the file and well it not feeling as seasoned as I like them then I left it on the side for now knowing I want to do something with it some day. Right now I am working on a rather large project that when i first started reckoned it would have only been work on e book only later finding out that it will be much bigger than that after mapping out the bigger milestones.

But I am more than up for the task since I really want to get the story out of my head and into some written format. So far I have reached what i consider my third book in the series with three more on the horizon. But since this one is third one is the first one I'm doing in a novel format but i'm planning to keep learning while i progress and come back and touch up on the rest of the story.

I think with a realistic mindset then there is no problem starting off big so to speak. If you have a story and you feel it can only be best told though three or more books then just go for it and get that story out of your head. That being said after I have done the third one I plan on putting the project on pause and work on some shorter stories just to experience how that is like.


----------



## popsprocket (Sep 8, 2014)

I don't feel like there's anything such as 'too ambitious'. People should be as ambitious as they can.

But there is definitely such a thing as writing something beyond your level. That's not to say that those stories aren't worth writing, because how will you ever have the skill to do them justice if you don't write them in the first place.

So yeah, nothing wrong with ambition or just getting the words down. It's the people who constantly "plan to write" multi-book series but don't ever get past the first chapter of the first book that concern me. Keep the ambition high, but climb there one step at a time instead of trying to go for Olympic gold on your first try.


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Sep 8, 2014)

Gavrushka said:


> I'd never knock ambition and would always advise any writer to get the story out first, however many volumes it may occupy, and then refine it later.
> 
> So no, ambition is to be encouraged, but tempered by common sense and wrapped in a huge blanket labelled patience.



I would never knock someone's ambition. Hell..if I thought I had enough ideas and ability, I'd be more than happy to write a few Side Worlds books. 

Best of luck, Gav. I look forward to having a copy of at least one of your books in my hands in the near future.



Sam said:


> Your friend has a couple of short stories published. I didn't even write a short story before tackling my first novel.



Actually, she hasn't. I put that line about the short stories in so that anyone who happened to read this thread AND had a big series in mind wouldn't get offended since I don't know if they have anything published or not. 

But...that's one of the big problems I see my friend having. SHe has 11 books to work on. She has only fragments of each one because while she is working on one, ideas for the others pop up and she goes to write those down and gets drawn into THAT book...and so on and so forth. 

The bad thing is that she's actually a pretty good sci fi writer. She just isn't getting anywhere.



popsprocket said:


> I don't feel like there's anything such as 'too ambitious'. People should be as ambitious as they can.
> 
> But there is definitely such a thing as writing something beyond your level. That's not to say that those stories aren't worth writing, because how will you ever have the skill to do them justice if you don't write them in the first place.
> 
> So yeah, nothing wrong with ambition or just getting the words down. It's the people who constantly "plan to write" multi-book series but don't ever get past the first chapter of the first book that concern me. Keep the ambition high, but climb there one step at a time instead of trying to go for Olympic gold on your first try.



Like I said..maybe it's just me. I think that writing one novel is hard enough. I have been working at mine for quite a while now and can't imagine it turning into 3 or 5 or 7 or however many before I have even gotten close to having one done.

It's not that I lack ambition. I just don't want to bite off more than I could possibly chew. Maybe it has something to do with the hiatus I took.


----------



## shadowwalker (Sep 8, 2014)

I don't think there's a problem if a) one realizes that the inexperienced writer may, indeed, finish the series but that does not mean it will be quality work (ie, most likely will require massive revising/editing); and b) don't let the project discourage them (do one book at a time and don't worry about how many more books need to be written). I don't think it's impossible for a relatively inexperienced novelist to write a series, but I do think some writers set unrealistic goals for that endeavor. I would counsel them to work on the series 'casually' while doing other projects - ie, don't let it become "do it or die". They could end up losing not only the series but any compunction to write anything else (see "b" above).

ETA: Noting your comment on your friend's method - making notes for the other stories is fine, but she needs to concentrate on getting one done first. She's setting up a bad habit with the flitting around and not finishing anything, IMO.


----------



## InstituteMan (Sep 8, 2014)

Pops has made my point, essentially. My ambitions have exceeded my abilities before, heck, still do, and that can cause trouble. If you are trying to improve, it is important to reach, to try to write something just beyond your prior abilities, but if you write something way beyond your abilities you won't learn much (in my experience).


----------



## Bishop (Sep 8, 2014)

11 books is a lot, if only for the fact that she will be a very different writer once she hits the last word on book 11. Books 1 and 11 might even be almost indistinguishable, as that level of practice and crafting makes a deep impact on a person's writing style. I wrote Beyond Light (105K) and Unholy Light (107K), then started Darkest Light (Currently, 56K) before shelving the series. I shelved it because Darkest Light was FAR better writing than Beyond Light and I wanted to do something fresh that was more representative of my skill level. And now, since finishing that fourth project, I've started two more and a sequel to said fourth project, making my current WIPs total at three, four if you include Darkest Light. I'm all over the map, but I usually focus on one at a time enough that I finish a book every 50-70 days.

So. I do think one can be "too ambitious" but it all depends on the person. Some people can take on that massive undertaking and keep pushing through, whereas others need to focus on one work. I try to have 2-3 running at once, one primary and one or two distraction pieces when I need a break from the main. That keeps me writing and keeps me producing completed manuscripts. That ambition keeps my fingers tapping away at the keys.


----------



## Jeko (Sep 8, 2014)

I like ambitious writers, I sometimes feel like a lot of them want to write a series because a lot of the writers they like have written/are writing a series. The problem is, no publisher will care about your plans for a series unless your first book can sell. 

So no, I don't think you can be too ambitious. But if you want to be realistic about your ambition, then your debut novel should be your main concern, not the fifth novel after it in the second series you're going to write as a prologue to the first which will actually be the third in a long series of series etc.


----------



## Kyle R (Sep 8, 2014)

It all depends on the individual. What might seem like "too much" for one person might be "not enough" for another.

Ultimately all that matters, in my opinion, is if the writer herself enjoys it.

If she's hating it and wishing she had focused on something smaller, then perhaps that's what she should do. But if she's enjoying it and loving the challenge, then I say keep moving forward. :encouragement:


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Sep 8, 2014)

Kyle R said:


> It all depends on the individual. What might seem like "too much" for one person might be "not enough" for another.
> 
> Ultimately all that matters, in my opinion, is if the writer herself enjoys it.
> 
> If she's hating it and wishing she had focused on something smaller, then perhaps that's what she should do. But if she's enjoying it and loving the challenge, then I say keep moving forward. :encouragement:



The funny thing about that is that she kind of drives herself batty because of the way she flits around. She has complained to me a few times about having idea files scattered all over the computer...some repetitive files of ideas and stuff like that. 

Other than those complaints, though, she does seem to be having a good time with the series even though she has yet to complete even one of the books.


----------



## Kyle R (Sep 8, 2014)

Writing's definitely tough! If it weren't, we'd all be bestsellers.


----------



## Gavrushka (Sep 9, 2014)

Kyle R said:


> Writing's definitely tough! If it weren't, we'd all be bestsellers.



Writing is easy... It's the waiting until we're capable of writing a bestseller, or a seller of any kind, that's the tough part. 

It's seeking out those who'll offer us criticism rather than praise.

It's knowing that we have a 10,000 hour warm-up routine before we can take centre stage.

I doubt there's anyone who has contributed to this thread who couldn't write a commercially viable story, but I am sure that there'll be a few who'll never journey quite that far. - And that's the tough part for me. Tough part for all of us, as we'll never read the books they never wrote.

*edit* Yes, Morkonan, I've finally come round to your way of thinking. - Well, almost... You once said talent can be learned, but I'd say it's more that almost all of us have it in the first place, but just don't take the time to nurture it sufficiently.


----------



## Morkonan (Sep 9, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> ...But is there such a thing as taking on a project that is WAY too big for your current writing ability level? ...



Yes.

But, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it, anyway.  It's all about the finish, right?

How many writers have the same writing capability as when they first started writing? Well, likely none that are _successful _writers. Practice makes perfect, right? Uh... well, no, it doesn't. In fact, perfect practice makes perfect. And, that's a problem when you're taking on a huge project with nothing nearing any "huge project practice," isn't it? You sort of have to learn as you go and that might not be a very good learning experience. That doesn't mean one can't learn on the way, but one has to recognize that they're actually learning as they go, right?

Not everyone is going to be up for a Micheneresque novel. That doesn't mean they can't try, but it might also mean that they will encounter hurdles that they've never had any experience at all with crossing. How paralyzing would it be, as a writer, to come to a writing problem in the middle of a decacology+ that one had no idea how to solve? And, what if the obvious solution and the only one that would work meant that you had to do some serious re-writing of four other novels in order to make it work? What's the writer's attitude going to be? How devastating would that be? How many early writers start off with huge projects, only to never finish them after enduring countless months of suffering and revision? _What if those other novels in the series had already been published!_ /heartattack There's a reason why actually finishing a first work, any sort of work, is a hallmark achievement for a writer.

I think one _can_ bite off more than one can chew, but not only due to _skill-related _issues. There's a certain mindset necessary for huge works and not every writer wants to accept that sort of punishment. Sure, they're glorious, but so are any one of a bajillion smaller dime-novels. Does a story actually take that much content to tell? Does the experience one wishes to impart to the Reader demand that many words? It seems that the practicality of writing and publishing a novel involves editing out words as much as it does writing them... How difficult would it be to write 1,000,000 words that were all worthy of being read? The mind boggles!  Can one wait ten years before one can rest with the satisfaction of a job well done? Can one endure the anxiety over such a period with the possibility that the job won't be well done?

"Knowing" matters. Picture a surgeon. They're scrubbing up for the next operation. They walk into the operating theatre, see the prepped patient on the table, attendants busily ministering to them, and then take a look at the chart. "Ah, a heart-transplant. But, I'm a brain surgeon!" _That_ surgeon knows their skill set. Moreover, they know enough, in general, about what they are doing to truly understand what their limitations are. In fact, the crowning achievement in personal knowledge is not knowing something, but understanding what it is that you_ do not know_. That is a sign of true knowledge, crazily as that sounds, and that is what one has to be guided by when tackling any project. How else can you begin to fill in the gaps of knowledge? You might even discover something new along the way, but have no idea what it is you've discovered nor even that you discovered anything! That's a lost opportunity to gain knowledge and "practice." One can hope to learn things as one progresses, but one can't really learn those things if one can't see that they're learning them. And, what does that mean for the previous work that has already been finished? Endless re-writes, a cycle that will seemingly never end. 

I think it all boils down to this: If one already knows enough about writing to know most of what one doesn't know, one shouldn't be daunted by _any_ writing project one is willing to undertake. However, if one is as of yet unsure of what one _knows_, one should take care in one's assessment of one's skills, capabilities, and one's willingness to undertake a journey into the unknown... Not a very good answer, but they're not always very good, anyway, are they? 

*TLDR Version:*  Know what what doesn't know, first, before becoming confident in one's ability to assess one's skills as they're related to any project. 

(PS - From your description, I'm pretty sure I know who you're  talking about. I offer that just in case you know who I am. But, I wrote this as a generic response, not a targeted one. Just wanted to  be sure that was clear.) 

Personally, I would not want to tackle a huge work like that. At  least, not right now. I think I could,  possibly, manage it. But, I also know that my mindset isn't geared up  for that kind of sticktoitiveness. I'd get halfway through my modern  masterpiece and want to change the entire story... For such a work as  you describe, my first instinct would be to develop the Setting above _ all other things_. Then, I would work the entire thing up as an episodic  piece, with most books being able to stand on their own. In fact, _many_  of the best recent science-fiction novels do exactly that same thing.  (Iain Banks (RIP) and Alastair Reynolds come to mind, for their Setting  development, and David Weber for his 13+ Honor Harrington series and the  multitude of other stories in that Setting. The list of such works and their authors is... huge.) I would be very concerned  about carrying the Reader's attention over such a long connected series without  having to constantly "one-up" the previous books. Many writers encounter  this problem when writing a long series (I can name a few popular ones, but will refrain 'cause I still like their stuff.  ) and I really don't think that  any long series of books start out and end as they were originally  conceived. I don't think it's possible and, for myself, I would have to  admit that I recognized that fact before starting out with such a  project. 

Read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire 

Martin's  work is wonderful and exciting, true. But, as a whole, it's also an _evolvin_g work.  It wasn't first set in stone and only then was it written. There are  broad targets that have to be hit and certain plot-points that he feels  are critical, but that's not all a story is, is it? There's more... stuff in there than just that sort of thing, right? The writer has to write that stuff, too. Martin isn't going  about writing this masterwork as one entire piece, like some sort of  pre-imagined omnibus. It evolves as it evolves, just evolving within certain  constraints. That is how any large work, in my opinion, has to be  approached. One couldn't approach it otherwise without first having written it...  Martin, due to his skill level and his previous knowledge of  his capabilities, knows how he needs to approach this work. At least,  he knows enough about his own capabilities to know how *he* needs approach the work. For others, the process might differ. But, to come to that level of self-knowledge takes a bit of practice and Martin has had that practice and has developed that sense of self-knowledge over decades of writing experience.


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Sep 9, 2014)

Morkonan said:


> Yes.
> 
> But, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it, anyway.  It's all about the finish, right?
> 
> ...



As always. Morkonan, a very insightful post.

It's always possible that you may know who I am talking about, but it's not someone from here. It would be rather coincidental if you actually did know the person I was referring to, though. 

Having read what you said, I would pose another question...

Is it possible that age would make a difference in the decision to write a multi book series? 

What I mean is, is it possible that an older writer such as myself and others here, would be less likely to want to take on something like that than would be the younger ones among us?


----------



## Terry D (Sep 9, 2014)

If a person has the ideas, the talent, the skill, and the work ethic to write a commercially viable series then I say, go for it. But focus 99% of your attention on that first book, because if you can't sell that one--as a stand-alone book--then there's no hope for the rest. Every book published is a crap-shoot for the publisher. They need to believe that they will have success with book one before they take a chance on #2, #3, etc.


----------



## count58 (Sep 10, 2014)

I think if you want something, you have got to be ambitious.
If you are into writing ... learn to aspire to be a good writer.
If you are good ... you hope readers will love your story.
That's ambitious ... you want the best for yourself.

Writing is easy as people may think
But you need to consider a lot of things just to get it right.
If you were ambitious, you would do anything to write well.
Just don't get it into your head or you'll go someplace else.
But being slightly ... slightly ambitious can get things right for you.


----------



## Morkonan (Sep 10, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> As always. Morkonan, a very insightful post.
> 
> It's always possible that you may know who I am talking about, but it's not someone from here. It would be rather coincidental if you actually did know the person I was referring to, though.



Writing communities are always small and, as a consequence of pursuing an occupation that demands isolation, many writers reach out. So, it's not as uncommon as one might think. I believe I know this person through a website that is not primarily involved with writing, but has a writing subforum.



> ...Is it possible that age would make a difference in the decision to write a multi book series?
> 
> What I mean is, is it possible that an older writer such as myself and others here, would be less likely to want to take on something like that than would be the younger ones among us?



Maybe. 

But, I think what's important is whether or not the story you want to tell needs to be told in multiple installments. Does it? Then, that's what you have to decide to do. There's also the consideration that if you want to focus on getting a good story published and have other ideas in the wings, choosing a series might not be the best professional choice. Publishers may not want to commit to it, even if it's decent/good. So, one might have to "grease the wheels" with a good stand-alone, first, to demonstrate competency and the ability to hold onto a fanbase before expecting a series will get published. (Though, there are some writers that "broke out" with a series as their first professionally published work. Jim Butcher comes to mind, but there are plenty of others.)

In my opinion, if the story is worth it, age shouldn't be an issue in the consideration. There are plenty of good series that were finished by other authors after the original died. (Wheel of Time)


----------



## ak2190 (Sep 10, 2014)

Personally, I feel like it's best to let people figure it out themselves when they've bitten off more than they can chew. Most people learn through experience rather than through advice. Plus, I don't want to be accused of pooping on their parade.


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Sep 10, 2014)

Morkonan said:


> Writing communities are always small and, as a consequence of pursuing an occupation that demands isolation, many writers reach out. So, it's not as uncommon as one might think. I believe I know this person through a website that is not primarily involved with writing, but has a writing subforum.



If her name/avatar on said site involves a large, rare cat, then you are not mistaken.


----------



## Morkonan (Sep 10, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> If her name/avatar on said site involves a large, rare cat, then you are not mistaken.



That's the one.


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Sep 10, 2014)

Nice. Even the internet winds up being a small world sometimes.


----------



## popsprocket (Sep 10, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> Like I said..maybe it's just me. I think that writing one novel is hard enough. I have been working at mine for quite a while now and can't imagine it turning into 3 or 5 or 7 or however many before I have even gotten close to having one done.
> 
> It's not that I lack ambition. I just don't want to bite off more than I could possibly chew. Maybe it has something to do with the hiatus I took.



Don't get me wrong - by no means do I think that planning out a series is more ambitious than writing a stand alone book. They demonstrate the same level of ambition as far as I'm concerned, it's just a matter of how well the writer can pull it off. No good in saying that I'm going to lift ten boxes at once if I am physically incapable.


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Sep 11, 2014)

popsprocket said:


> Don't get me wrong - by no means do I think that planning out a series is more ambitious than writing a stand alone book. They demonstrate the same level of ambition as far as I'm concerned, it's just a matter of how well the writer can pull it off. No good in saying that I'm going to lift ten boxes at once if I am physically incapable.



But you know ahead of time that you wouldn't be able to lift those ten boxes at the same time. 

But would a writer, especially a new one, be self aware enough about their abilities to realize that their skills may not be up to the task?

I'm not trying to discourage anyone, by the way. 

This questions popped into my head and I felt like doing a bit of analyzing.


----------



## Morkonan (Sep 11, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> ..But would a writer, especially a new one, be self aware enough about their abilities to realize that their skills may not be up to the task?..



That's exactly the sort of way one must ask that question. 

Incoming analogy...

When I was around nine or ten, I started lifting weights. I did this for a couple of years, through puberty. Once puberty hit, I discovered girls and all things about them was more interesting than moving heavy stuff around. But, I was lifting right during a growth spurt and through it, as well. This is before "machines." We didn't have those. Everything was free-weights and the most complicated thing one would find where we worked out was a angled leg-lift with free-weights stuck on it. No spotters to speak of, most of the time, and no safety measures otherwise. If you dropped it, you broke something.

During that time, I had no "trainer." I was going off of what I could glean from weightlifting mags and what the instructions said in a Sears brochure that came with my weight-lifting set at home. Sure, I bulked up a bit, somewhat weirdly for a kid. But, what I really ended up doing was some damage. Some of it was benign, like ending up with a barrel chest and a few permanent stretch marks where my muscles just grew too fast and too large for my skin to handle. Some of it was not so benign, like knees that ended up being virtually ruined. Luckily, I never hurt my back. But, my knees... ouch.

I didn't know any better and I had nobody to offer me any guidance and few places to find it, had I known enough to look. As a result, I didn't really accomplish much of anything positive in the long-run. And, the lasting effects are mostly negative. What I really ended up doing was being blinded by a hubris that was horribly uninformed. I just didn't know enough to know what my capabilities were or how to truly learn from what I was experiencing.

Lucky new writers find places like these, where they can interact with others of like mind and learn how to judge their own capabilities. In some instances, they even put those capabilities to the test in order to receive the judgement of others. Decades ago, I would have attempted a magnum opus on a grand scale, had I the same passion that I have now. But, I would have failed horribly and would have likely "hurt" myself due to my own hubris and ignorance concerning the true nature of my skillset.


----------



## talmaflower (Sep 11, 2014)

Hmm, wasn't there someone who said, "Sorry this letter is so long, I didn't have time to write a short one"?  ;-)

I don't think your experience level needs to correlate with the length of your piece of work.  With anything, it will likely get better the more experience you have - long or short.  In 10 years time you'll write better short stories - and better novels, and a better series...

I do think you need to start off with something that grabs your imagination; if you're not interested in your own story you won't continue with it!  (That's a problem I have a lot!  Either something looks academically good on paper but doesn't grab me enough emotionally, or I fall in love with the idea but it doesn't hang together logically.)

The problem with a series if you're inexperienced, I think, is that it's very hard to stop it from being bloated and self-indulgent.  Also you don't know until you've started whether the world you've created is going to grip you that much - never mind your readers!

My personal opinion is that the best series aren't necessarily planned from the beginning as a series until the writer is pretty experienced.  A good series from an inexperienced writer might arise as a consequence of a cliffhanger ending to a first novel, or from the writer creating strong characters and a believable setting which form a good basis for further books.  It might also arise purely from the demands of the readers to go on more journeys with the same characters.  

As an inexperienced writer myself I'd hesitate to structure a story as a series of books because I'm pretty sure after getting through the first few drafts I'd have trimmed a lot of the fat and it would probably fit into one book!  I think you'd have to be very confident in your own ability to plan and structure several books from the off - and if you're totally inexperienced, that kind of confidence often comes off as arrogance.


----------



## Kyle R (Sep 11, 2014)

It can be done, though. J.K. Rowling planned her entire seven-book series before writing it.

Just throwing that out there in case anyone who wants to plan a series is feeling discouraged. 

As an amateur writer with no experience, Rowling took five years to outline her entire series before writing the first book. Over 450 million copies later, her wizardly story became (and remains) the best-selling series of all time. 

Imagine if someone told her to stop being too ambitious!


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Sep 11, 2014)

Kyle R said:


> It can be done, though. J.K. Rowling planned her entire seven-book series before writing it.
> 
> Just throwing that out there in case anyone who wants to plan a series is feeling discouraged.
> 
> ...



In no way would I ever try to discourage someone. Nor would I tell them to curb their ambition. That isn't my gig.

Everyone is different. We all know that. What will work for one person (starting off with a series) won't for another. 

I just pose the questions that come to mind.


----------



## Elvenswordsman (Sep 11, 2014)

While it is possible to be too ambitious, as it can lead to being a waste of time, there is also the flip side, where you've "wasted" so much time doing something that the end product is actually valuable.

Just a thought.


----------



## MzSnowleopard (Sep 14, 2014)

To Tim and Morkonan

Awe, I love you guys too!

Tim- I had no idea you were so concerned. You've been such a sounding board for me over the years.

On the thread content- I can't say anything more than what has already been said. I would simply be repeating it.

With regard to my series, I would like to throw in my 2 cents. While Tim focused on the writing issues- there are others problems that have prevented me not just from working on any given story but writing period. I've resolved to wear earphones to drown out the chaos from my neighbors. The cat running back and forth across the desk is another story. LOL. 

Still, I am determined to get this series finished. I've made some mistakes and some oops. Correcting (editing) these mistakes takes time. Also, getting rid of those who persist in discouragement and or sabotage has helped tremendously.

During this process I've learned a valuable lesson on writing with others. Be careful who you choose to write with. They will bring their own ideas, intentions, and agendas to the project. And if they don't agree with your own- the story will sink. This is a whole different topic.


----------



## Dawson (Sep 14, 2014)

Not my first time attempting a novel, but my first time with the intent of getting published. 

So far, I plan on writing at least three decent-sized books. 

And I'm revising many a time. 

And getting hella criticism. 

Like, so far, I've had three serious, intense, beta readers for my 4-page first chapter (one being on here)! 

I want to make damn sure that these books make it big. 

(I was sorted into Slytherin for a reason, bro!)


----------



## Megookin (Sep 14, 2014)

Ambition with focus equals prosperity; but ambition without focus equals lunacy.  

To complicate the issue, even if you see it as ambition without focus; like an addict, only when your friend sees it the same way for herself, nothing can be done.  If you try to bring it to her attention that these other projects are nothing but a coping mechanism to deal with taking on something too big, if she is not willing to see it right now all you will do is jeopardize your friendship. 

Some people hoard, others shoot heroin, and yet others write.


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Sep 14, 2014)

MzSnowleopard said:


> To Tim and Morkonan
> 
> Awe, I love you guys too!
> 
> Tim- I had no idea you were so concerned. You've been such a sounding board for me over the years.



You know I care about what happens to you and Zodiac both. That's why I always persist in telling you to keep working on it...but one thing at a time. LOL



> With regard to my series, I would like to throw in my 2 cents. While Tim focused on the writing issues- there are others problems that have prevented me not just from working on any given story but writing period. I've resolved to wear earphones to drown out the chaos from my neighbors. The cat running back and forth across the desk is another story. LOL.



Those cats are gonna be the reason you wind up pulling your hair out. LOL


----------



## MzSnowleopard (Sep 14, 2014)

I have a small team of go-to people with my works. And they are immensely supportive. Tim, plus Karla, Jammers, and Jen. She's been gracious enough to be my editor. My sister Tammy is the newest addition to this group. So far, her favorite piece is "Choices". This is one of the stories I wrote and later revised for Long Ridge Writers Group. 

I had to cut back my sharing and time at the site Morkonan knows me from because of too many detractors. Too many people telling me to give up on the project. In my stats book- even 1 detractor is too many. Finding supportive friends has been a challenge. 

Don't' get me wrong, I do see the problems and how it looks to others. One thing that would solve a lot of problems is a home with a soundproof / kitty FREE room. 

In the mean time 'I have a plan' and 'there is a method to my madness'. Since K is no longer a part of my life I've been contemplating the length of Zodiac. Perhaps even condensing in half. Instead of each hero having their own novel- it be 2 heroes per novel. This is an idea that appeals to me. S moved away so she's no longer around. The absence of her stress-breeding has been a tremendous bonus. This monthly I finally replaced the last of the 6 items she stole from me.

Now, if the cats would cooperate LOL (as Athena crosses the desk wanting in my lap.)

As for Zodiac- I have decided to commit the prologue to my next lesson with Long Ridge. It started out as a 2 page 'intro' and, thanks to Jen's encouragement and suggestions, it blossomed into 12 pages. So, it's 2 birds with 1 stone- tackling part of Zodiac and a course lesson.


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Sep 15, 2014)

Well that's pretty sweet.

Shortening it to 5 or so books may give you a little mopre freedom with the characters and their interactions with each other as well.


----------



## MzSnowleopard (Sep 15, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> Well that's pretty sweet.
> 
> Shortening it to 5 or so books may give you a little more freedom with the characters and their interactions with each other as well.



It'll still be a good sized series. just minus 6 books. Prelude is book 1 with Aries as book 2 and so forth. Then there was supposed to be a trilogy to wrap up the set. With each hero having its own novel, that was Prelude + 12 + 3 = 16 books @ roughly 80,000 words each. 

The question I've been asking is: Would readers stick around or get bored and lose interest? And it's not like I need to squeeze every drop of blood from these characters. I'm not killing them off.


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Sep 15, 2014)

The question of whether or not the readers stick around is going to entirely depend on the writing. Just look at Discworld and how many of those there are. But there are that many because fans keep reading them.

Executed well, a series will have it's fans who'll keep buying it.


----------



## JimJanuary (Sep 15, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> I have seen several people here mention their WIP as being a multi book series.
> 
> A friend of mine is working on a project that involves a full novel, with the same groups of characters, for each sign of the Zodiac.
> 
> ...



Personally, I'm over the whole trilogy/multi-book thing. But I understand that mainstream/commercial publishing houses really dig that stuff


----------



## Gavrushka (Sep 16, 2014)

JimJanuary said:


> Personally, I'm over the whole trilogy/multi-book thing. But I understand that mainstream/commercial publishing houses really dig that stuff



I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'over it'. - Do you mean you attempted to write a multi-book series for commercial gain?

It makes me smile to look back now, but when I started writing I _assumed_ anything I wrote would have massive commercial value, and so paid little attention to what I should and should not do...

There are people who I am sure pursue commercial avenues in the hope of finding success that way, but I imagine most of us amateurs / self proclaimers just find the love affair with our characters is such that we wish to write on in a second book and beyond. - I'm writing a sequel now, and it's a relatively easy affair to accomplish as I did much of the groundwork in the opening volume. What could be considered equally challenging is tying up a story in a single volume, leaving every major thread resolved.

The vast majority of us must surely accept we're writing for our own enjoyment, while clinging to that slim chance we may produce something of commercial value. - I doubt too many of us would embark on sequels for financial gain when agents have rejected our volume 1.

Perhaps I should be more analytical, but I've devoted all I am to creative enjoyment. Yes, perhaps it's naive, but there's 10,000 hours of enjoyable naive behind me, and I'd hope a lot more of them in front of me.


----------



## JimJanuary (Sep 16, 2014)

Oh, it's just the idea of trilogy book series or whatever. Maybe I shouldn't be too judgmental here as I've never actually finished writing a book-length work. But it just seems like whenever an author announces that they're writing a new book it's like there's some compulsion or maybe expectation that the book is going to launch into a series of books (might be more a genre-fiction specific thing). 
I'm more of a stand-alone novel reader, like I've never really loved a book that's been a part of a series (okay, I just remembered that I loved Harry Potter as a kid). I mean series or trilogy-based books are generally entertaining reads, but it's not like I've read them and have a life changing experience or anything. 

Anyway, on the topic of writing: I think it's best just to write a) as you said, for enjoyment or what you would like to read, b) how the story naturally works. I wouldn't want to write something and edit the ending so that there was potential for a sequel. I mean if it happens that the best conclusion for a story is that the protagonist dies, then in my work that protagonist is gonna die. But like I mentioned earlier I am way too neurotic and self-aware to even get close to finishing a book yet.


----------



## MzSnowleopard (Sep 16, 2014)

I can see Jim's point from the perspective that it seems like every time we turn around there's a new trilogy or series on the shelves. Potter, Percy Jackson, Hunger Games, Divergent, Vampire Academy. The list goes on. The market has become flooded with them. And most of them fall under 1 or these categories - superpowers, supernatural, dystopian, you get the idea.

Whatever happened to series like Sweet Valley High or The Box Car Children? They're out there- like the series Heartland by Lauren Brooke. We just don't see or hear much about them because they're not in the same categories as the previously mentioned. Personally, I love a good series that goes back to the basics like these. I find them refreshing, simple, and easy to read.


----------



## Terry D (Sep 16, 2014)

Publishers like a series because they can count on sales from the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. books, so that's a good reason to have a story-line which lends itself to multiple books. It's been done forever: Nancy Drew, The Hardy Boys, Doc Savage, Tarzan, Alex Cross, and a score of other mystery/thriller/adventure series. Rarely, however, do publishers buy into a series from an unknown author. They will buy the first book, if it's a well written, stand-alone novel, and see if it sells--then they start talking series. That's why it is best to focus your attention on book #1, because if that one doesn't sell your series is DOA.


----------



## MzSnowleopard (Sep 16, 2014)

I like the idea of each book being able to stand on its own- they just happen to be part of a series- like Nancy Drew


----------



## Gavrushka (Sep 17, 2014)

MzSnowleopard said:


> I like the idea of each book being able to stand on its own- they just happen to be part of a series- like Nancy Drew



I would hope that any merit-published book would stand on its own, even when part of a single story spread across several volumes. I'd feel badly cheated and disinclined to read on if there was not some form of resolution at the end of each volume.

I'm not sure if everyone who writes multi-series books embarks on the journey knowing it'll spill into further volumes.

And yes, as someone mentioned earlier, some genres do lend themselves to multi-volume series more readily. - Fantasy is the one that springs to mind for me and, to a lesser extent, science fiction... - for both these genres, the author may have to spend an inordinate amount of time world-building. - I can understand why he or she may wish to use it more than once.


----------



## MzSnowleopard (Sep 17, 2014)

In that with science fiction, Evan Innes series America 2040 comes to mind


----------



## Jared77 (Sep 17, 2014)

My situation relates a little bit to the opening post, though I believe I am up to the challenge.

I'm writing my first novel.  I'm 60K words in, and it will end up about 80K.  The first book will work as a stand alone novel, but I'm am definitely planning a series.  Right now I'm planning 4 or maybe 5 books, tops.  One reason it's that "short" is because I don't want it dragged out endlessly.  

Without giving away anything, there are 7 "major thematic events."  In planning the series, I thought of course "should it be 7 books?"  But then thought, "Nah, that's too Harry Potter."  So I've planned on how I can put the same overall story into 4 books, which I think works.  And will enable me to write other things in my lifetime.    In my past I have written several screenplays (made no money), and now I am attempting a novel.

Maybe your friend can squeeze her 11-book series into a shorter series, perhaps even a trilogy?  Or do something like what Tolkien did with LOTR.  The first "book", Fellowship of the Ring, was actually "Part I" which consisted of Book I and Book II.  The entire trilogy was six "books."


----------



## MzSnowleopard (Sep 17, 2014)

Jared77 said:


> Maybe your friend can squeeze her 11-book series into a shorter series, perhaps even a trilogy?  Or do something like what Tolkien did with LOTR.  The first "book", Fellowship of the Ring, was actually "Part I" which consisted of Book I and Book II.  The entire trilogy was six "books."



I'm closer to resigning 6 of the books. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of teaming up 2 of my heroes to a book. 
btw- I'm the friend T.S. has been talking about. And I appreciate the candor and honesty in this threat.

He told me about this site several months ago and gave me the link. Now I'm wishing that I'd jumped into the pool sooner.

I know that not all of the comments were directed towards me, still, thanks everyone.


----------

