# How to write your first novel (if nothing you're doing is working)



## J Anfinson (Dec 13, 2017)

I couldn't even begin to guess how many new writers struggle to get their first novel written. Heck, I was one of them. It took me something like 4 years to figure it out, but it's really quite simple. Are you ready to hear the answer?

Just write.

It's really that simple. Start writing and don't stop. Even if it sucks don't stop. Even if you have no idea what should happen next, don't stop. Make up anything you want as you go. The most important thing is that you add to the word count, not take away from it. Don't let yourself stop to edit anything. Work with whatever you've already written. If you hate where the story is going, then simply start curving it back in the direction you'd rather it be going. Even if character names change or you think of a massive plot hole, don't stop. Continue on like you know what you're doing and make a note to fix it when all is said and done. Do not stop writing until you're ready to type "the end". 

Will it be a pile of slop? Probably. Mine was. However, being able to say "I wrote a novel" feels pretty good, even if it wasn't a great one. You'll learn a ton along the way and those lessons can be applied to your next novel. I hope this ends up helping someone.

Anyone else have tips? I'd love to hear them.


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## Jack of all trades (Dec 13, 2017)

It depends on your goal. If you want to be able to say you wrote a novel, then simply adding to the word count would meet that goal.

If, on the other hand, you want to have a good novel, wait until you know where to go with the story before adding to it. When stuck, do other writing work. 

*Start the next book. 
*Write background stuff for the characters in the current book. 
*Critique and beta read, to exercise your editing muscles. 
*Try your hand at short stories. 
*Polish the part you have written. 
*Try rewriting something with a creative story, but poorly written, and try to do it better. 
* Find someone to brainstorm a solution to your stuck spot with. 

Keep working, but on other things until you know what should come next. Then work on the book with gusto!

Forget about having a great opening. Openings, chapter breaks, descriptions of people and places can all be added during editing. Get the story going and keep going as long as you have momentum.

Remember that the book opening is only the opening of a chapter. Take the pressure off.

I think the most important thing anyone who is thinking of traditional publishing needs is a willingness to consider a different view of your work and methods. And a willingness to change what's been written, without rewriting the whole thing. Practice making small changes.

But I totally agree with the advice of "just get started".


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## JustRob (Dec 14, 2017)

I'm doubtful that we can give advice on _how_ to write that first novel without knowing _why_ someone is trying to do it. I wrote my solitary novel because I had a story in mind that was demanding to be written down, even though I had no desire to be a fiction writer. How it got there is another matter, but getting from a story in mind to words on pages is a different problem from conceiving the story itself. From my own experience I would suggest not writing anything until you have thought so much about the story that you have to start writing it down to make sense of it all. Maybe the story that you write won't be the one that you thought about originally but by thinking about the environment and characters in the context of one imagined story you will have created a sound backdrop to the one that you eventually do write, already knowing that coherent stories can be written against it.

One characteristic of the "just write" approach that I have noticed is that the story may build up in layers. I started with an earlier short story as the seed of an idea and built my novel around that, but as I did so I noticed that I kept feeling that what I'd was writing so far wasn't the real story but just the lead-in to it. In fact this kept happening until what I now consider to be the real story would span two or three novels. Also this approach tends to keep the reader reading as, just as they think that they have the measure of the story and know where it is heading, it turns a corner and opens up a whole new vista for them to explore. Consequently those patient enough to read to the end of my current novel ask me when I am going to write the next one. The sad thing is that as I have stopped writing now it is unlikely that anyone will ever get to read the real story, the one that I now know so well and have enjoyed conceiving, even though I will probably never write it. This brings me right back to my original question, why one would want to _write_ a story rather than just know it.

My signature states that sharing an experience creates a reality, but first you need to have the experience that you want to share, so give your story some forethought until you feel the urge to share it. It's far harder just to share the _feeling_ that you have a story to tell without knowing what it actually is. Maybe some people need to write just to organise their thoughts though, but writing to achieve that is different from writing to share the result with others.


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## Terry D (Dec 14, 2017)

It was W. Somerset Maugham who said, "There are three secrets to writing a novel. Unfortunately, no one knows what they are."

Each writer is different and each must find what works best for him/her, but I'm always wary of advice that tells me it's okay to stop for a while, or that going off on some tangent is the way to move forward with the book I want to write. I've been there. I've started books only to get 60 pages in and have some other cool idea hit me, distracting me from the work at hand. Those books were never finished. The books I've finished were those which I dedicated myself to writing. The ones I've stuck with even when the going was difficult. That's what works for me. 

I usually start a writing session by rereading what I wrote the session before. That gets my mind working and re-immerses me in the world of my book. If I see something that needs changed, I'll do it then. This one-step-back, two-steps-forward process makes for a slower draft, but, at the end, I find I have far less rewriting to do. That's what works for me. Your millage may vary.

One thing I'm absolutely sure of is that your novel won't get written if you don't put words on the page. Nothing else matters. Write.


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## H.Brown (Dec 14, 2017)

I found an unorthodox way of writing my first novel, as I didn't write it in order. Your probably asking yourself, what is she on about, so let me explain.

My novel began as a short story of 8,000 words, with the only aim to pass my dissertation. I gathered my main plot ideas, wrote up my five main character sheets, pondered the location and then deleved in to my writing and completed my first draft in a week. I edited it slightly and submitted it. However the story remained incomplete and nagged at me, until I sat back down with it.

I began to edit the first chapter, but then found inspiration for a later chapter, so I jumped from writing chapter one, to writing what was then chapter six. I found that I wrote more when I wasn't writing it in a linear fasion, than I did when sticking to my imagined timeline. After many jumps between chapters, my first draft of my book began to grow and grow, as each segmant fell into place.

Another method that helped me was sitting down at the computor to write for atleast an hour everyday. Sometimes I only wrote two words in that hour, but other times my words ran away with my fingers, however each time I sat in my chair I was determined to write something.

So in answer my tips would be:

Find a way that suits you and allows you to find your flow.
Dedicate time to the writing.
Don't be discuraged if the first draft sucks, stick with it and polish it until it shines.
Enjoy what you do.


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## J Anfinson (Dec 14, 2017)

Terry D said:


> .That's what works for me. Your millage may vary.
> 
> One thing I'm absolutely sure of is that your novel won't get written if you don't put words on the page. Nothing else matters. Write.



Absolutely. I'm not trying to say my way is the only way. Some people might get it done by writing the whole thing backwards and if it works then that's awesome. What I am saying is that my way works, and if someone is having trouble getting a first draft finished (I used to write several chapters and then get frustrated because it wasn't turning out like I wanted it to and I'd banish it to my junk folder), then why not give the method I suggested a shot? What's the worst that can happen? You won't finish it yet again?

There's no right, wrong, or best way to go about it. Just do it.


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## Ralph Rotten (Dec 14, 2017)

I wrote my first book on a government surplus Royal typewriter when I was 15.  It was about 151 pages long, single spaced, and 1/4" margins all around to save paper.  It was a mess, but I learned a lot writing it.


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## moderan (Dec 14, 2017)

Yup. I wrote my first one in longhand, on yellow legal pads, which I had a good supply of, during the throes of a white cross episode, one Saturday when I was fifteen. 67K. It took a week of soaking my right hand in warm water for it to uncurl.
It was gawdawful. I started my second one a couple weeks later and wrote it in my classes while I was waiting for everyone else to finish reading or taking tests. That was terrible, too, but it got me in the habit of writing every day. And a reworked section of the second one became my first short story sale, to a semi-pro 'zine out of Ray Bradbury's birthplace.


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## Jack of all trades (Dec 15, 2017)

Terry D said:


> It was W. Somerset Maugham who said, "There are three secrets to writing a novel. Unfortunately, no one knows what they are."
> 
> Each writer is different and each must find what works best for him/her, but I'm always wary of advice that tells me it's okay to stop for a while, or that going off on some tangent is the way to move forward with the book I want to write. I've been there. I've started books only to get 60 pages in and have some other cool idea hit me, distracting me from the work at hand. Those books were never finished. The books I've finished were those which I dedicated myself to writing. The ones I've stuck with even when the going was difficult. That's what works for me.
> 
> ...



You can pull out one of those unfinished stories and finish it. And even if you don't, it was practice writing openings. They weren't wasted effort.

I think we too often expect that what works for us as more experienced writers are what beginners should do. I disagree. Beginners aren't always ready for the "slog it out" approach.


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## Terry D (Dec 15, 2017)

Jack of all trades said:


> You can pull out one of those unfinished stories and finish it. And even if you don't, it was practice writing openings. They weren't wasted effort.
> 
> I think we too often expect that what works for us as more experienced writers are what beginners should do. I disagree. Beginners aren't always ready for the "slog it out" approach.




Yes. I could go back and finish those books, and the act of writing as far as I did was exercise for my writing muscles, but, since the topic of this thread is writing (and, by extension, finishing) a novel, my biggest takeaway from my experience was that allowing myself to get distracted from my book resulted in a complete loss of momentum. Since I was an inexperienced writer at the time I started those books, then my experience _was_ that of someone new to the craft. I'll never tell another writer, experienced or new, what they should do. I can only tell them what works for me, and relate mistakes I have made.


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## Jay Greenstein (Dec 17, 2017)

> I couldn't even begin to guess how many new writers struggle to  get their first novel written. Heck, I was one of them. It took me  something like 4 years to figure it out, but it's really quite simple.  Are you ready to hear the answer?
> 
> Just write.
> 
> It's really that simple. Start writing and don't stop.​


And...it worked? You sold a publisher on acquiring it? I mean no disrespect, but given that there's a 99.9% rejection rate, it would seem that in addition to writing, it might be a good idea to find out what the customer will smile on and what will bring a "hell no." And given that all our training in writing , in our school days, is on how to inform the reader (remember all those reports and essays, and how few stories you wrote?), writing fiction, whose goal is entertaining, as against explaining, might take just a few tricks we're not taught in school.​


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## Terry D (Dec 17, 2017)

Jay Greenstein said:


> And...it worked? You sold a publisher on acquiring it? I mean no disrespect, but given that there's a 99.9% rejection rate, it would seem that in addition to writing, it might be a good idea to find out what the customer will smile on and what will bring a "hell no." And given that all our training in writing , in our school days, is on how to inform the reader (remember all those reports and essays, and how few stories you wrote?), writing fiction, whose goal is entertaining, as against explaining, might take just a few tricks we're not taught in school.
> [/INDENT]



Since the topic of this thread is 'getting the book written' and not 'getting the book sold' then I think the answer is , "Yes." Apparently he did get it written.


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## Jack of all trades (Dec 17, 2017)

Terry D said:


> Yes. I could go back and finish those books, and the act of writing as far as I did was exercise for my writing muscles, but, since the topic of this thread is writing (and, by extension, finishing) a novel, my biggest takeaway from my experience was that allowing myself to get distracted from my book resulted in a complete loss of momentum. Since I was an inexperienced writer at the time I started those books, then my experience _was_ that of someone new to the craft. I'll never tell another writer, experienced or new, what they should do. I can only tell them what works for me, and relate mistakes I have made.



My point is they weren't necessarily mistakes, but rather required steps on the path that has gotten you to the author you are now.

I think too often we're tempted to label past choices "mistakes". Too often we believe that if only we had made different choices we would be in a better place, or gotten to where we are sooner. But the only thing we can really be sure about is that something would be different now if we had made different choices then. It might be better. It might be worse.

I have reached the point where I avoid second guessing the past. Those choices got me to where I am, and at this point I like where I am well enough to be comfortable with past choices. Some of those choices may be things I wouldn't choose now, but they were right for me at the time.

The problem I have with the "keep writing" approach is I can see how some wannbe authors might look at the horrible end product and lose confidence in their abilities to become good writers. Having a few unfinished pieces along the way is worth it if you achieve your overall goal of a good novel.

Look. I'm not saying the keep writing approach is wrong for everyone. I just dislike it being presented alone, as if it is the only way. Alternatives should get presented, too. That way members and guests can pick and choose what to try.


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## J Anfinson (Dec 17, 2017)

Jay Greenstein said:


> And...it worked? You sold a publisher on acquiring it?



Nope. I haven't even tried to publish it. That's not the point of this thread. The point is to attempt to show how one might complete, at minimum, a first draft. All those 99.9% rejections aside, can you guess how many wannabe writers haven't even finished a first draft? I would hazard to guess 90%. The first step is to finish a draft. The degree of quality on that first draft is up to the individual. How much rewriting are you prepared to do? I only suggest finding what works to get that draft written. For me, I had to let go of being a perfectionist and just crank it out. Before that I was taking one step forward and three steps back every day. If any of the advice in this thread helps someone get their novel written then I'll consider the mission a success.


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## Roac (Dec 18, 2017)

I wrote my first “novel” about twenty years ago…and it was a pile of garbage. Marriage, kids and life all distracted me from ever going much past that novel. Then a few years ago I started getting the itch to write again. I thought that starting with my past work would be a good idea. But then I realized that I only had copies on 3 ½ inch floppy disks and only one old computer that would read them. While working on the problem of getting the files out of the stone age I decided to just write the story again. I used the same premise but in the end I had a completely different story. So I think I wrote not one but two first novels.

Oh, and the second novel was also a pile of garbage…it just did not stink as much…


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## JustRob (Dec 18, 2017)

Roac said:


> I thought that starting with my past work would be a good idea. But then I realized that I only had copies on 3 ½ inch floppy disks and only one old computer that would read them. While working on the problem of getting the files out of the stone age I decided to just write the story again.



You can get an external USB floppy disk drive that will work with a modern computer very cheaply. I have one for such occasions.

P.S.
Of course, if you also had a stone age word processor then the files would also need conversion.


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## Roac (Dec 18, 2017)

JustRob said:


> You can get an external USB floppy disk drive that will work with a modern computer very cheaply. I have one for such occasions.
> 
> P.S.
> Of course, if you also had a stone age word processor then the files would also need conversion.




I managed to retrieve my "masterpiece" with an old flash drive and some file conversion. Now it just sits in a new folder...and is still unread.


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## Jay Greenstein (Dec 18, 2017)

Terry D said:


> Since the topic of this thread is 'getting the book written' and not 'getting the book sold' then I think the answer is , "Yes." Apparently he did get it written.


Look at it as if the question was about a house. Would you advise just building it first, and the looking into how to do it, and the problems to avoid? Before I do something for the first time I look into how it's done. Nothing in our schooldays prepared us for writing fiction. Neither the approach not the termonology is the same as the writing style we leave our school years with.

A scene on the page is unrelated to one in storytelling, or stage/screen. So guaranteed, use your schooldays writing knowledge and your scenes won't have a short-term scene-goal, won;t have constantly increasing tension, and will not end in disaster—and, will be rejected before the end of the first page.

Anyone can put words on paper and call it a novel. But if you're going to advise a newer writer to skip the step of learning the tricks of the trade of the profession they hope to practice, it would seem reasonable that the advice comes as the result of successful experience.


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## J Anfinson (Dec 18, 2017)

Jay Greenstein said:


> Look at it as if the question was about a house. Would you advise just building it first, and the looking into how to do it, and the problems to avoid?



Actually, before attempting to build a house I'd advise people to build other woodworking projects that aren't so critical. Perhaps a dog house? If it's going to leak I'd rather the dog get wet. 

As for success? Not me, but I'm sure you'll find I'm not the first to promote the same basic tactic. Look at a few of the NaNoWriMo authors who made it big. Ever hear of Brandon Sanderson? Hugh Howey? Really I'm just passing their advice along. But hey, in the end it's up to what works for each of us.


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## Terry D (Dec 19, 2017)

Jay Greenstein said:


> Look at it as if the question was about a house. Would you advise just building it first, and the looking into how to do it, and the problems to avoid? Before I do something for the first time I look into how it's done. Nothing in our schooldays prepared us for writing fiction. Neither the approach not the termonology is the same as the writing style we leave our school years with.
> 
> A scene on the page is unrelated to one in storytelling, or stage/screen. So guaranteed, use your schooldays writing knowledge and your scenes won't have a short-term scene-goal, won;t have constantly increasing tension, and will not end in disaster—and, will be rejected before the end of the first page.
> 
> Anyone can put words on paper and call it a novel. But if you're going to advise a newer writer to skip the step of learning the tricks of the trade of the profession they hope to practice, it would seem reasonable that the advice comes as the result of successful experience.



Funny you should mention building a house as an analogy. My father built the house our family was living in when I was born from scratch, with no prior experience and no training. He just planned it and did it, learning as he went. It was a small house. A simple one. But he finished it by sticking with it, working on it at night after his day job. Just like Jake suggests in the OP. Just like I learned to write.

I'd also point out that writing a novel does not come with the same financial, security, or legal risks as building a house. Trial by error is a viable way to learn to write stories. Most successful writers start that way. At least I've never read an interview where a bestselling author attributed his or her success to the tips they learned from a book. Since you seem to be challenging the validity of advice given by those who are posting here, I'd ask what your qualifications are? How many novels have you sold to publishers?


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## Jay Greenstein (Dec 19, 2017)

> Trial by error is a viable way to learn to write stories.


Centuries of learning from experimentation that led to success and you go for reinventing the wheel from scratch? I mean no disparagement or insult but has it worked for you, or anyone you know? The last time I did a study on it, the top ten on the NYT list who had Wikipedia entries all had some training in writing fiction. It's great to be a pathfinder, but without consulting a map to find where you're starting from you may be blazing a path through someone's garden and not know it.

Yes, you father built the house. But would it please a plumbing or electrical inspector. More to the point, it's a sample of one. And without taking anything from your fathers admirable abilities, what percentage of people who try such things fail? Before advising someone to build their own house without researching the necessities, like how to construct a foundation, based on the type of soil and the weight of the house,  I'd want to know that.

They offer four year majors in writing fiction. Surely, no matter how hard you may try, and how sincerely you work at trial and error you're not going to intuit the information. The 99.9% rejection rate says that. Hell, how can you write for publication if you don't know what publication is looking for?

Maybe it's me. I'm not all that smart, so I have to steal my best ideas. Still I find research and knowledge a fairly good working substitute for genius. Your mileage, of course, may differ.


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## J Anfinson (Dec 19, 2017)

Research is great. It's only a problem if you're spending all your time asking questions and not enough time writing. I mean, you can study how to build the Taj Mahal but wouldn't it be good to start with a shed first? Maybe nobody will buy it as is but at least you're developing skills and you can always improve it until it does sell. I do agree that we should strive for excellence in the end.


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## Pluralized (Dec 19, 2017)

I've written four of these 'piles' without really having a plan, and they're all just that. Piles. Of absolute horseshit. 

I would strongly recommend that anyone who actually aspires to become a novelist spend a decade first consuming at least a thousand of the best ones in existence before trying to write their own. Just because we all have a keyboard doesn't mean we all should write a novel. 

But _you_ might strike gold. There's a reason people buy lottery tickets, too.


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## Jack of all trades (Dec 20, 2017)

Consume a thousand of the best novels. Hmmm. That leads to the debate of are the best, or even good. A whole new rabbit trail.


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## Jay Greenstein (Dec 20, 2017)

> Maybe nobody will buy it as is but at least you're developing skills and you can always improve it until it does sell.


How certain are you that you're hardening bad habits into concrete? Instead of getting better and better at fiction, are you certain that you're not getting better and better at writing badly? If it were a successful method, would people sign up to spend four years learning fiction writing at the universities? It's not an easy major. And if that knowledge is unnecessary, and can be learned by simply writing every day, why would anyone enroll?

Here's my rational: You wouldn't expect to write a successful screen or stage play after having graduated your school years without more knowledge about how they're made and what those who buy such manuscripts expect to see. You wouldn't expect to get a journalism job without knowing the field better. And you wouldn't expect to learn how to do either of them by watching films or reading newspapers. We _know_ they're professions filled with specialized knowledge and trade secrets that must be mastered.

Yet, almost universally, we leave our school years believing that our years there have taught us to write, and that writing is writing, so, we know all we need to know in order to successfully write fiction. I believed that for years, till I opened Dwight Swain's, Techniques of the Selling writer and learned that I knew _nothing_ about writing fiction for publication. And while I can speak for no one else, it wast only after making what seemed to me to be dramatic changes in approach I began to sell my work. Significant? I sure think so.

When I had my manuscript critiquing service running I saw work that people believed was ready for publication. It came from nice, dedicated writers, who had spent endless hours writing and polishing it. Universally, they believed that they were ready, or close to it. They expected lots of little corrections, but an allover, "It's a great story idea—just like I once did. But nine out of ten of those submissions would have been rejected in a single paragraph. Not because the writing was bad. An English teacher her would have given them a good grade. It wasn't because they weren't competent at expressing themselves. Most were. But 49.9% of the submissions were what amounted to a chronicle of events—a detailed history report that would make an English teacher smile and a publisher reach for the rejection slip. 49.9% was a direct transcription of the author telling the story aloud, which cannot work in a medium like ours because it can reproduce the words, but not the performance—which is where all the verbally told story's emotion resides.

Was it the fault of the writer? Hell no. It was, as Mark Twain said,[FONT=&quot]“It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.”

I'm always at a loss to explain it. We spent twelve years of our life learning writing skills that are, universally, fact based and author-centric. And we don't object to that study. But as a result, when we write fiction we _tell_ the story in the role of storyteller. Sometimes we wear a wig and makeup and pretend to be the protagonist at a time after the story takes place, recalling it. Sometimes we tell it as a narrator. But either way, the reader is _not _placed into the persona of the one living the story. Instead, the story is explained. But no acquiring editor will say yes to a story written like that. And, if you write in that style till you're too old to see the keyboard you will _not_ magically change your approach, because you cannot see the errors you don't recognize as being errors. All you will do is become a better nonfiction writer.

Twelve years of learning how not to write fiction is okay, but so many people are not willing to read the words that publishers provide on how to write fiction; not willing to spend a few weeks learning the basics of the profession; not willing to attend seminars and conferences where agents and publishers come to give advice on how to please them; not willing to visit the local library and check out the free information in the fiction writing section.

I probably shouldn't have written this. I've done it before and it only upsets people. And if I've upset you I apologize. That's certainly not my goal. But it's so frustrating to see people who thought nothing of spending twelve public education years leaning how to write nonfiction, but who are unwilling to devote twelve _hours_ to learning the skills of writing to entertain.

And now, having had my rant, and with apologies, I will bow out.
[/FONT]


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## J Anfinson (Dec 20, 2017)

> I probably shouldn't have written this. I've done it before and it only upsets people. And if I've upset you I apologize.



Not at all. Everything is worth considering. That's how we grow.


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## JustRob (Dec 20, 2017)

It's all about how your mind dances. Should you learn all the moves and go line dancing or just get out on the floor at a disco and do your thing? There's a line dancing scene in the film _Antz_ that makes the point. Personally, when I see the label "New York Times Best Seller" on a novel I just hope that it really isn't _that_ bad, but then I only disco dance. Yes, my angel and I have tried learning other more formal forms of dancing but that isn't what our minds and feet want to do. 

On our recent cruise on the Rhine (well, to be honest, on _every_ river cruise that we've been on) we were disco dancing to ABBA music by a live group while all the other guests sat and watched. Afterwards some people at the bar asked me what my occupation was and when I said that I'd been a computer systems developer they said, "Yes, we thought it must have been something like that." The cruise manager then told me that I had a style all of my own, whatever that meant. When I dance I just throw together a collection of moves that seem to fit in well with the music. My writing is similarly improvised. Knowing the moves of formal dancing styles may add to what I do, but in the end it isn't the final product. The reason for learning the rules is so that we know why they exist and when it is appropriate to break them. Breaking them just at the appropriate times gives our writing its uniqueness. 

My dancing is to my mind a heap of rubbish, just as my writing might be, but spectators find it entertaining and praise me for it. I actually do it to encourage others to try for themselves, just as with writing. Equally my computer systems were quite idiosyncratic and broke many of the rules, but they proved to be more effective than any others in our company written by people who did things exactly how they'd been taught. My programming techniques were to a great extent developed by me through reasoning and I invented several logical wheels that others hadn't conceived of, so that old line about reinventing the wheel isn't really true as there are many kinds of wheel to be discovered. When I took to writing fiction I just did what my mind does best, experiment and improvise. There's little point in debating whether line dancing or disco is the right approach to writing. It all depends on whose mind is doing the dancing and that is what fiction is, the dance of a mind.


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## Terry D (Dec 20, 2017)

Jay Greenstein said:


> Centuries of learning from experimentation that led to success and you go for reinventing the wheel from scratch?



Who's reinventing anything? We have all those thousands of works available for us to learn from, and writing can be learned from reading. That's the one thing almost every successful writer agrees upon; that reading, and massive amounts of practice, are the most powerful tools. 

"For all I know, writing comes out of a superior devotion to reading." Eudora Welty

"Read. Read anything. Read the things they say are good for you, and the things they claim are junk. You'll find what you need to find. Just read." Neil Gaiman

"When I was teaching writing — and I still say it — I taught that the best way to learn to write is by reading. Reading critically, noticing paragraphs that get the job done, how your favorite writers use verbs, all the useful techniques. A scene catches you? Go back and study it. Find out how it works." Tony Hillerman

"Read everything — trash, classics, good and bad, and see how they do it. Just like a carpenter who works as an apprentice and studies the master. Read! You'll absorb it. Then write. If it is good, you'll find out." William Faulkner

"The real importance of reading is that it creates an ease and intimacy with the process of writing; one comes to the country of the writer with one's papers and identification pretty much in order. Constant reading will pull you into a place (a mind-set, if you like the phrase) where you can write eagerly and without self-consciousness. It also offers you a constantly growing knowledge of what has been done and what hasn't, what is trite and what is fresh, what works and what just lies there dying (or dead) on the page. The more you read, the less apt you are to make a fool of yourself with your pen or word processor. ...
"[R]ead a lot, write a lot" is the great commandment." Stephen King

Sure, thousands of people take fiction writing instruction. It works for some. If it worked for all, then we wouldn't have that 99.9% rejection rate you so frequently tout. My point has never been that writing instruction is bad, or ineffective. It has always been that there are other ways of learning to write fiction that work also. I've never discouraged a writer from seeking writing education, I think most of us have sought some sort of training, be it a creative writing class at a local university or community college, or through 'how to' books and periodicals. Most of us can't afford the time, or money, to get a four-year writing degree, so we have to make do with what we have. My problem with those who profess to be teachers of writing is that they are invested in their own biases. I don't need to "intuit" how good writing works. I can see it in the works of the masters. I can learn how John Steinbeck creates the world of George and Lenny by reading,_ Of Mice and Men_ because when I open that book everything he did is right there on the page; as exposed as the guts of a frog in biology class -- or, in keeping with the carpentry analogy, I can see how the trusses and joists are constructed. I can see where the point-loads are transferred to the foundation. It's all there waiting for us to see it, copy it, then grow from it.

Learn how you wish. If it works for you, great. But, when I consider advice about writing, I tend to lean toward the advice of those who make a living writing more so than those who want to make a living telling me how to wrte.


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## Jack of all trades (Dec 20, 2017)

I would think that most writers have been avid readers all along. True, there's a bit of a difference between reading for simple enjoyment and studying or analyzing what you're reading. 

Both with the advice to write, write, write and with the advice to read, read, read, there has been an implied vacuum. There has been no mention of anyone else. And there's the fatal flaw.

One must read and write, but one must also discuss. One must talk about what makes your favorite novels good, and what makes them bad.  Getting into analyzing is important so that you can better see the problems in your own works.

But that's not enough, either. One must also get the outside view of one's own works. Feedback, preferably from those that have read the entire thing, is important. One can write for years and do little more than ingrain bad habits of telling, rather than showing, or having long, drawn out and boring descriptions that will cause readers to lose interest, just to name two.

It goes back to what is your goal. To be able to say you have written a novel, or to have a good book that's ready for publication.


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## The Fantastical (Dec 21, 2017)

To be honest the "just write" advice is the worst that any aspiring author can get. If you write without know why or how or what you are writing you are bound to write a pile of crap. But! You say, I will learn from it... but how exactly? How will you even know where you have written a bad scene? By reading? Yes, one learns a lot from reading but if you don't know how to put what you have seen in books on a page it won't matter how many books you read. The truth is that those great books where the product of thought, time, effort, and plot. Blindly putting words together does not a novel make or even a story.  

So...How will you suddenly learn what you don't know you need to learn from writing badly? The answer, you won't. 

Sorry, but the truth is - if you write crap, the only thing you will learn is how to write crap and no matter how much you polish crap, at the end of the day all you will end up with is shiny crap and sadly not all that glitters is gold.

Write will from the start, write with time, write with patience, know what you want to write, know why you write it. Writing a good novel isn't a sprint it is a marathon and only those who know how to pace themselves, who know that rushing isn't the way to win are going to be remembered in a hundred years.


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## Kyle R (Dec 21, 2017)

The Fantastical said:


> To be honest the "just write" advice is the worst that any aspiring author can get.



Depends on who's receiving the advice.

For authors looking for technical guidance and "nuts and bolts" learning, "just write" probably won't help much.

But for authors who waste their time fretting over non-issues, or circling back on their own work instead of moving forward, "just write" might just be the best piece of advice there is.

Also, we shouldn't be so quick to discount the learning power of trial and error. It's the _primary_ way in which humans learn. With pretty much everything. :encouragement:


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## JustRob (Dec 21, 2017)

Of course "just write" is not good advice by itself because one should also get others to read what one writes to determine whether one is doing it right. These other people should also be readers, the sort of people that one expects to read what one writes. In the world of quality control there is a distinction between primary measures and secondary measures. The primary measure of literature is how well it is received by the readers. Secondary measures are things like the reactions of publishers and professional critics and assessors ... and of course other writers. One of the arguments by these latter groups that they are the best people to judge such matters, is that they will be seriously honest about one's shortcomings, whereas ordinary readers are more likely to be kind. They clearly haven't encountered my beta reading angel, but that's another story.

The advice "just write" is appropriate here in WF because a member of this community can also have their work assessed by a wide range of readers, from professional and semi-professional people in the industry to end-point readers like my angel. They can also get guidance on how to improve their work from those who know the techniques. Online writing advice forums such as this one are criticised by some because they may be too complimentary to a novice and lull them into developing bad writing habits. On the other hand the more critical and professional forums may be regarded as being unsympathetic, so novices may actually gravitate towards membership of the kinder ones just to bolster their egos. 

In order to be freely creative a writer doesn't specifically need to be taught how to write well by those secondary authorities but one does need to learn what the challenges are and then determine for oneself how to tackle them. Writing to please readers is likely to be a pleasure while writing to please publishers is more likely to be a hack job. The final result may be the same, that people read what one writes, but how one achieves it depends whether one wants a job or a pleasure.

When I quite suddenly decided to write a novel I made only the most essential preparations, which were finding out the correct way to write dialogue, which very seldom occurs in non-fiction, and reading books on the psychology of reading, i.e. the primary measure of good writing, whether one's work is likely to worm its way into a reader's mind. Having written the bulk of my first draft I sent an extract to a professional service for assessment, but their comments demonstrated that their ability to focus on the depth of meaning in a work was limited, probably by their commercial criteria of success. Later I decided to try a wider readership and joined WF, which has a good mix of readers with different perspectives. That was my approach then, just write at first but then get comments and heed them ... but then just write anyway because every writer's style is unique to them ... otherwise one will most likely just become another hack writer ... but maybe that's what some members want.


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## The Fantastical (Dec 21, 2017)

JustRob said:


> Of course "just write" is not good advice by itself because one should also get others to read what one writes to determine whether one is doing it right. These other people should also be readers, the sort of people that one expects to read what one writes. In the world of quality control there is a distinction between primary measures and secondary measures. The primary measure of literature is how well it is received by the readers. Secondary measures are things like the reactions of publishers and professional critics and assessors ... and of course other writers. One of the arguments by these latter groups that they are the best people to judge such matters, is that they will be seriously honest about one's shortcomings, whereas ordinary readers are more likely to be kind. They clearly haven't encountered my beta reading angel, but that's another story.
> 
> 
> The advice "just write" is appropriate here in WF because a member of this community can also have their work assessed by a wide range of readers, from professional and semi-professional people in the industry to end-point readers like my angel. They can also get guidance on how to improve their work from those who know the techniques. Online writing advice forums such as this one are criticised by some because they may be too complimentary to a novice and lull them into developing bad writing habits. On the other hand the more critical and professional forums may be regarded as being unsympathetic, so novices may actually gravitate towards membership of the kinder ones just to bolster their egos.
> ...



Sorry but how can you expact people to read the utter drivel that "just write" produces and give you any sort of feedback? Please read my polished crap commment.


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## The Fantastical (Dec 21, 2017)

Kyle R said:


> Depends on who's receiving the advice.
> 
> For authors looking for technical guidance and "nuts and bolts" learning, "just write" probably won't help much.
> 
> ...



Yes and no.... take the light bulb for example - were there a lot of duds? Yes, did whatshisface learn from them - yes, did he start out with not a clue or even a basic understanding of electricity and electrics? No? He had some knowledge of what he was doing and had a plan and was using logic and science to create something? Yes?! Well... well... surprise surprise.


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## Jack of all trades (Dec 21, 2017)

Kyle R said:


> Depends on who's receiving the advice.
> 
> For authors looking for technical guidance and "nuts and bolts" learning, "just write" probably won't help much.
> 
> ...



If the advice is useful for specific people, then it should be given to those people. Not provided as general advice. One does not take antibiotics for a strain.

The problem with the trial and error analogy is that there's not automatic, and unavoidable, feedback. When creating a wheel, one expects it to roll. When it doesn't, it is obvious that something is wrong. With writing, feedback from readers is critical. And just because one CAN get feedback here doesn't mean one WILL. Especially when the advice of "just write" doesn't include, "then let us read it and critique it".


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## Terry D (Dec 21, 2017)

The Fantastical said:


> Yes and no.... take the light bulb for example - were there a lot of duds? Yes, did whatshisface learn from them - yes, did he start out with not a clue or even a basic understanding of electricity and electrics? No? He had some knowledge of what he was doing and had a plan and was using logic and science to create something? Yes?! Well... well... surprise surprise.



Everything you need to know about writing is in the pages of those who have written before you. That's the beauty of writing, there's no hidden magic to it, it's only as deep as the ink on the paper. If you want to write a paragraph that moves you as much as one of Ursula Le Guin's, or Nora Ephron's, all you have to do is study their paragraphs to see what worked, and why. Some folks may need a third party to decode those mysteries, many do not.

Since old 'whatshisface' was the same guy who said, "Invention is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration," I think he'd be a 'just write' kind of fellow. By the way, Edison had no formal instruction in science, or electrical theory, heck, he had very little (only a few months) formal schooling at all. He was the epitome of a trial-and-error inventor.


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## Darkkin (Dec 21, 2017)

Tesla who once worked for Edison, was responsible for the AC current grids we use today and also, was a pioneer of wifi, but one only ever hears of Edison's lightbulb...Brilliance of lightning unseen because everyone is staring at a dim, flickering bulb.  Edison's bulbs are powered by Tesla's systems.

There is no tried and true method.  Only hard work, dedication, coupled with talent and luck.  You fall down, stand up, and consider responses provided in critique.  If a project is overwhelming or inert.  Set it aside and work on something else.  Keep at it, but listen to intuition.  If a piece is refusing to come togther there is probably a reason, not articulated by the unconscious filters of the creative process.  Switch perspectives amd approach from a different angle.  

Pay attention to little things that catch one's attention.  Take just a moment or two and let whatever it was that captured your attention rattle around, whether it is a word or a piece of music.  Follow the thoughts and ideas it conjured.  It is the process at work.  And sometimes the reason a piece cannot be forced is because something crucial is missing, something that is often found when and where one least expects it.

- D.


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## Terry D (Dec 21, 2017)

Jack of all trades said:


> If the advice is useful for specific people, then it should be given to those people. Not provided as general advice. One does not take antibiotics for a strain.
> 
> The problem with the trial and error analogy is that there's not automatic, and unavoidable, feedback. When creating a wheel, one expects it to roll. When it doesn't, it is obvious that something is wrong. With writing, feedback from readers is critical. And just because one CAN get feedback here doesn't mean one WILL. Especially when the advice of "just write" doesn't include, "then let us read it and critique it".



Feedback is over-rated. I've never needed feedback for any of the short stories I've had published. I know if they work when I write them. That's because I don't write them to fit anyone's criteria but mine. That doesn't mean I don't target my work toward a specific publication when I start, but I don't need input as to the quality of the finished product. Of course I get editorial input (including rejections), but that's not critique. I do have my novels read by betas because novels are more complex, and it is more likely that my closeness to the story-line will cause me to overlook continuity errors from time to time. Betas are also good for spotting overused words and phrases, and grammar issues.

I understand why people feel they need feedback, but I believe that need wanes as you get more experience and your confidence grows.


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## Kyle R (Dec 21, 2017)

In regards to the OP, I find the advice to "just write" until reaching the end has a lot of merit. Yes, sometimes that means you might end up with a terrible draft.

But the great thing about writing fiction? You can write a second draft (and any number of drafts beyond that). You can take the great things from the first draft and build on them, while cutting the missteps away. And there are almost _always_ great things to be found.

When you write in such a way (always pushing forward, never opening an escape hatch), your mind is forced to take more leaps and bounds to bind everything together. Sometimes these are flat-out blunders. Other times, they're surprisingly creative.

To me, those surprisingly creative moments are worth the missteps along the way—especially if the author embraces the idea that writing "the end" can be just _a_ step in the creative process, rather than the _final_ step.

To each their own, though. If there's anything I can definitively say about writing fiction, it's that what works for one person is not guaranteed to work for another. The only "correct" path is the one that you find works best for yourself. :encouragement:


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## Sam (Dec 21, 2017)

The Fantastical said:


> To be honest the "just write" advice is the worst that any aspiring author can get. If you write without know why or how or what you are writing you are bound to write a pile of crap. But! You say, I will learn from it... but how exactly? How will you even know where you have written a bad scene? By reading? Yes, one learns a lot from reading but if you don't know how to put what you have seen in books on a page it won't matter how many books you read. The truth is that those great books where the product of thought, time, effort, and plot. Blindly putting words together does not a novel make or even a story.
> 
> So...How will you suddenly learn what you don't know you need to learn from writing badly? The answer, you won't.
> 
> ...



I wrote my first novel with no clue what I was doing, and then wrote four more after it, each one incrementally better than the previous. 

My first trade-published novel sold 6,000 copies, which is slightly lower than the lifetime sales of the average trade-published novel, and my next novel was also set to be published by the same company until a dispute terminated the contract. 

I got an F in high-school English, yet I currently have a Master's degree in English literature, and none of that happened because I was a precocious talent. I wrote continuously for years to reach the level at which I currently reside. 

"Just write" has nothing to do with "just writing" and everything to do with putting in requisite work to become better at something. In order to become good at writing, one must write, and you'l find this paradigm holds true for any endeavour. In order to become proficient in something, you must do it repeatedly. That's all "just write" means. Wanna to get better at constructing sentences? Write more sentences. Wanna get better at first chapters? Write more first chapters. Wanna get better at final chapters? Write more final chapters. 

That is the essence of "just write".


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## Jack of all trades (Dec 21, 2017)

Terry D said:


> Feedback is over-rated. I've never needed feedback for any of the short stories I've had published. I know if they work when I write them. That's because I don't write them to fit anyone's criteria but mine. That doesn't mean I don't target my work toward a specific publication when I start, but I don't need input as to the quality of the finished product. Of course I get editorial input (including rejections), but that's not critique. I do have my novels read by betas because novels are more complex, and it is more likely that my closeness to the story-line will cause me to overlook continuity errors from time to time. Betas are also good for spotting overused words and phrases, and grammar issues.
> 
> I understand why people feel they need feedback, but I believe that need wanes as you get more experience and your confidence grows.



As this thread is about new writers writing novels, I feel you have supported my points well. Thanks!


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## Bayview (Dec 21, 2017)

For people who have certain gaps in their writing abilities, formal education is probably a great thing. For people who have other gaps in their abilities, reading more is probably a great thing. For a whole different group of people, not worrying about the details and just sitting down and writing _something _is probably a great thing.

I don't really understand the desire to find a universal approach for learning to write. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I learned to write by reading. Reading everything, for the first three decades of my life. Reading, reading, reading. (and getting sucked into movies and video games and every other creative world I could find). It worked for me, reasonably well -- my stuff gets published and generally sells okay.

But I'm always looking to grow, so I tried reading how-to books, and I just couldn't stand them. They're completely contrary to how I think about writing and how I go about writing. Snowflakes or MRUs or beatsheets or any of the rest of it? They just... they don't fit into my brain.

And maybe that's a problem, and I should spend the time and energy to just MAKE them fit. But I feel like I'm still learning, still improving, just by reading and writing and getting edited, reading and writing and getting edited...

So I'm going to keep improving my writing in the way that seems to fit me and my work. If I find myself plateauing somewhere lower than my ultimate goal, then maybe I'll have to go back and try to take a course or follow the directions of a how-to book or something else. But I think it's absolutely possible that I'll just never need to. My learning certainly doesn't seem to be slowing down yet...


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## J Anfinson (Dec 21, 2017)

The Fantastical said:


> To be honest the "just write" advice is the worst that any aspiring author can get.



Not really. The worst advice is to "get it right the first time". Know why? Because it doesn't happen and it often causes people to get stuck in a rut. Lots of good books would never have been written if it were mandatory that first drafts must meet a standard. The only draft that matters in the end is the final one. 




> Sorry, but the truth is - if you write crap, the only thing you will learn is how to write crap and no matter how much you polish crap, at the end of the day all you will end up with is shiny crap and sadly not all that glitters is gold.



Oh yes, the old polished turd argument. Who hasn't heard that one? Unfortunately there's a flaw to it. What's crap to one person isn't crap to the next. Personally I thought Twilight was crap but somehow Meyer made millions. Jay Anson (author of The Amityville Horror) also made it big before he died. Good story but the writing sucks, btw. 



> Write will from the start, write with time, write with patience, know what you want to write, know why you write it. Writing a good novel isn't a sprint it is a marathon and only those who know how to pace themselves, who know that rushing isn't the way to win are going to be remembered in a hundred years.



Again, not true for everyone. Plenty of great writers from the 1800's and early 1900's are practically unknown now. Just because you're good doesn't guarantee you'll be remembered and bad writers can sometimes be remembered longer. For some people the marathon approach works well. For others they'll never finish their book that way. 

Perspective is everything.


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## The Fantastical (Dec 21, 2017)

Sam said:


> "Just write" has nothing to do with "just writing" and everything to do with putting in requisite work to become better at something. In order to become good at writing, one must write, and you'l find this paradigm holds true for any endeavour. In order to become proficient in something, you must do it repeatedly. That's all "just write" means. Wanna to get better at constructing sentences? Write more sentences. Wanna get better at first chapters? Write more first chapters. Wanna get better at final chapters? Write more final chapters.
> 
> That is the essence of "just write".



But that is not and never is the advice give now is it? No, it is just right and don't worry or give a crap about anything including plot, just put words on paper. No-one is going to learn how to write if they just put words to paper blindly as per the given advice not the sub-textual, personal take on said advice. 

Or maybe the issue is that writers just don't know how to express themselves or their ideas properly? Maybe what is needed to for any author giving advice to actually use their words and write out what they actually mean.


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## Sam (Dec 22, 2017)

The Fantastical said:


> But that is not and never is the advice give now is it? No, it is just right and don't worry or give a crap about anything including plot, just put words on paper. No-one is going to learn how to write if they just put words to paper blindly as per the given advice not the sub-textual, personal take on said advice.



I did it. Am I no one? 



> Or maybe the issue is that writers just don't know how to express themselves or their ideas properly? Maybe what is needed to for any author giving advice to actually use their words and write out what they actually mean.



Or perhaps you don't know how to read.


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## J Anfinson (Dec 22, 2017)

Something I came across today.


			
				Richard Matheson said:
			
		

> I say the same thing Ray Bradbury said. He said, "God bless you, write 52 stories a year."  Write. You write. That’s the only way. You keep writing and if you have any talent at all, which of course is a necessity, you will get better and better as you write. But you got to keep writing. You should not go to those classes or seminars or sit around some guru and talk literature. You’ll never get anywhere that way. It’s pleasant. It’s enjoyable, but the only thing a writing class has to offer is that you have to write. You should instill that in yourself. Be persistent and constantly write in whatever field that appeals to you most. You’ve got to keep writing. That’s the only answer


.

http://lastheplace.com/2007/12/21/w...-writers-from-living-legend-richard-matheson/

It's one bestselling author's opinion so take it as you wish.


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## Kyle R (Dec 22, 2017)

The Fantastical said:


> But that is not and never is the advice give now is it? No, it is just right and don't worry or give a crap about anything including plot, just put words on paper. No-one is going to learn how to write if they just put words to paper blindly as per the given advice...



There's a difference between "don't worry" and "don't give a crap"—a subtle but distinct difference.

Writing without giving a crap implies _apathy_, which would likely make for some pretty poor writing.

But writing without _worry_—that still allows one to write with _passion_. It also allows one to experiment with creative avenues that they might have otherwise censored themselves from exploring. :encouragement:


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## Terry D (Dec 23, 2017)

The Fantastical said:


> But that is not and never is the advice give now is it? No, it is just right and don't worry or give a crap about anything including plot, just put words on paper. No-one is going to learn how to write if they just put words to paper blindly as per the given advice not the sub-textual, personal take on said advice.
> 
> Or maybe the issue is that writers just don't know how to express themselves or their ideas properly? Maybe what is needed to for any author giving advice to actually use their words and write out what they actually mean.



When writers talk about writing it's safe to assume that we are not talking about grocery lists, diaries, or Christmas card address labels, but the act of writing creatively. Writing to transfer the stories in our heads onto paper. That is what the advice being given here pertains to; 'just write your story' and stop letting doubts and perfectionism keep you from moving forward. No one is talking about just pounding out random words; that's called free-writing and can have a place in the creative process, but this thread isn't about that. It's about moving forward even when it is hard to find the perfect words for your story. To hell with perfect, just keep telling your story in the best way you can without getting hung up on the minutia. I think everyone has expressed that point very well for anyone willing to see it.


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## DaBlaRR (Dec 30, 2017)

J Anfinson said:


> I couldn't even begin to guess how many new writers struggle to get their first novel written. Heck, I was one of them. It took me something like 4 years to figure it out, but it's really quite simple. Are you ready to hear the answer?
> 
> Just write.
> 
> ...



I agree with you somewhat. That's how I completed my first novel. I have learnt that the sequel to that first novel, was actually harder than writing the first. I do my best not to edit as I go, but when I hit a point in the story where I was just writing, writing, writing. I lost motivation because the story was taking to me to a place I didn't map out in the beginning. So I went back and used what I already had and added to it in order to complete it. That's where I am at now. I stopped and then went back and built on what I know now is the ending. It makes me feel better. But then again, I'm the type of writer who doesn't plan, or outline, I write the story not knowing where it's going. I write as if I am reading/watching for the first time and build on that. For me, it makes it really fun.


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## Riptide (Dec 30, 2017)

J Anfinson said:


> Just write.
> 
> It's really that simple. Start writing and don't stop. Even if it sucks don't stop. Even if you have no idea what should happen next, don't stop. Make up anything you want as you go. The most important thing is that you add to the word count, not take away from it. Don't let yourself stop to edit anything. Work with whatever you've already written. If you hate where the story is going, then simply start curving it back in the direction you'd rather it be going. Even if character names change or you think of a massive plot hole, don't stop. Continue on like you know what you're doing and make a note to fix it when all is said and done. Do not stop writing until you're ready to type "the end".
> 
> ...



I do agree just writing is helpful probably for the first or second novel. I wrote two in high school, crappy little, dingy things both novellas really, but I never stopped writing and I didn't have wifi at the time so it was easier to just write. 

But after that phase of getting one or two knocked out, I think bouncing ideas and talking about the novel is one of the next best things to do to help you out. Don't push through holey plots or a flat arc, fix them then and there because right then is when you know what to do. I don't know how many times I came up with something great to fix, or add, sat on it a couple days or weeks, and forgot about the great fix that would solve all my issues. I got to 30k words in one of WiP and decided I didn't like it, so I went back and basically rewrote the entire thing. Now, finished at 88k, it is a much better story then previously.


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## J Anfinson (Dec 30, 2017)

Riptide said:


> But after that phase of getting one or two knocked out, I think bouncing ideas and talking about the novel is one of the next best things to do to help you out. Don't push through holey plots or a flat arc, fix them then and there because right then is when you know what to do. I don't know how many times I came up with something great to fix, or add, sat on it a couple days or weeks, and forgot about the great fix that would solve all my issues. I got to 30k words in one of WiP and decided I didn't like it, so I went back and basically rewrote the entire thing. Now, finished at 88k, it is a much better story then previously.



Hi Riptide,

I agree. The main thing I wanted to accomplish with this thread is to show people how to have the discipline to see a novel through to the finish line as a completed first draft. Once you learn how to have the discipline then why not take the time on the next one to get it right (or at least more so)? For those who already have the discipline to finish a novel, the method I described is of course pointless.


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