# Would a doctor's office, give the police this type of information?



## ironpony

Basically it would be a general family practitioner doctor's office.  If the police flashed their badges and asked for a file on a certain patient, would the people working behind the desk, not being legal experts or anything, just hand it over, or would they ask for a warrant first?  Plus would the police need a warrant for that at all?


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## Ace

ironpony said:


> Basically it would be a general family practitioner doctor's office.  If the police flashed their badges and asked for a file on a certain patient, would the people working behind the desk, not being legal experts or anything, just hand it over, or would they ask for a warrant first?  Plus would the police need a warrant for that at all?


Patient files are NEVER just handed over to ANYBODY outside of the medical staff and the patient.  Look up HIPPA, as it applies here.  The police would need an iron-clad warrant.


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## ironpony

Okay thanks.  I asked my friend who works in an office if the police were to just come in and ask for it, she said she would probably just give it to them without thinking.

Do you think a lot of people would do that, and the cop in my story could just hope that the person would be caught by surprise and just give it up without asking for a warrant?

I mean I know the patient files are not just handed over, but it's not like the people who work at a front desk are actually trained to ask for warrants, at least not my friend who is a receptionist, so I assume it's not in the normal training, is it?

Also, does each doctor's office have their own database on patients, are are all the doctors' offices link to one major medical database, that multiple people in the medical business can access?


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## Bloggsworth

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  I asked my friend who works in an office if the police were to just come in and ask for it, she said she would probably just give it to them without thinking.
> 
> Do you think a lot of people would do that, and the cop in my story could just hope that the person would be caught by surprise and just give it up without asking for a warrant?
> 
> I mean I know the patient files are not just handed over, but it's not like the people who work at a front desk are actually trained to ask for warrants, at least not my friend who is a receptionist, so I assume it's not in the normal training, is it?
> 
> Also, does each doctor's office have their own database on patients, are are all the doctors' offices link to one major medical database, that multiple people in the medical business can access?



Your friend is an idiot and her employer even more so.


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## ironpony

Oh okay thanks .

I have another question about how the medical database on patients works.  If the hospital wanted information on a patient can they just look it up in their computers and it's all linked statewide, or do they have to actually call the doctor's office of that patient specifically, and there is no database, linking all the doctor's offices together, when it comes to patient information?


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## moderan

No cross-database. The only information that's linked is who your physicians/specialists are and how to reach them.
Crank up your google machine and look for HIPAA.
You have no research skills.


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## ironpony

Okay thanks.  I didn't know what HIPPA was till mentioned here.  When I looked up search and seizure laws, HIPPA didn't come up before.


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## Darkkin

Do a bit of dissection of crime novels...and talk to people in the line of work.  The countless threads of questions would be radically reduced if you took initiative and did a bit of homework rather than posting every question on every subject of every manuscript idea you have.  :calm:  Your friend would end up fired or in jail for breach of patient confidentiality if she handed over data, and rightly so.  Good grief.  Talk to local law enforcement and health professionals.  Hell, talk to your doctor for basic, correct information.


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## ironpony

Okay thanks, I tried reading sites that talk about the law as well as a reading a crime fiction writing law book.  But the law is very open to interpretation and sometimes I feel there may be difference particulars for different situations, and they do not go into that as much as I would need.  I tried asking cops, but they didn't get back to me as well before.  Sorry for all the questions, just not sure where to find out exact particulars on certain scenarios.


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## Darkkin

Read the genre you are trying to write.  Pay attention to the details of established fiction writers within your genre in order to learn the basics of a writing recipe.  Crime procedurals are procedural for a reason, established methods for evidence collection and case development.  Learn the basics from reading, from interviewing professonals, and it will help ground the reality of your own work.  This is all background research that needs to be done by the writer.


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## ironpony

Well the genre I am trying to write is tricky, cause I hear stories of people being able to get information without warrants and I wonder where is the line drawn.  For example, I was watching the movie All The President's Men, and the reporter Carl Bernstein, wanted to see business receipts of where one of the arrested suspects has gone on his trip.  He goes into the building and asks for them, and the guy just gives them all to him, without even asking for a warrant.  So I wonder, where is the line drawn, when a reporter can just politely ask for things like that without a warrant, and they will just hand them over, without thinking about it too much.

Things like that confuse me, cause I don't know where the law stands, when people are getting around it, it seems.


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## Ace

You really need to get better at research and using Google.  You've had several of these questions which are answered by simple Google searches.  When in doubt, google search your question.  Have a look at this link about HIPPA and how it applies.  And your friend that would just hand over patient information shouldn't be in healthcare.


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## Darkkin

Google legal precedents to find established case laws for specific situations.  Start with reality, and keep in mind that readers have access to the same search engines you do.  Consider the tone of replies on a thread like this...Most readers are asking, seriously?  How can a writer not know this basic fact?  With the profound number of crime procedurals in media, books, tv, and film, how can such a question even come up.

  Need for medical records.  Do you have a warrant?  Standard reply.  Start with standard and work within the moral and legal parameters of your characters.  Does character X go snooping and get caught?  These are things that can be used to further a story.  Look at how you phrase your questions.  It is the difference between a question and an effective question.

- D.


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## ironpony

Okay thanks.  It's just that All The President's Men, was able to get around the warrant issue, cause the people just handed the information over and didn't ask for one.  So this gets me knew ideas, like hey, maybe the cop can bet on them not asking for one, like in All The President's Men.


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## moderan

That movie is from *1976*. Times change. You have poor Google-fu. That's not good for a writer. You really need to learn research skills -- they will help you for the rest of your life. You're also bad at extrapolation and will have to learn that. 'What happens if I do this?' Kinda stuff. That's how writers build scenes. That will also help you for the rest of your life. Having people here do your legwork is shortchanging yourself. 
That said, here's a couple of bones:
HIPAA Privacy Rule
Medical Records Policy



> Well the genre I am trying to write is tricky, cause I hear stories of people being able to get information without warrants and I wonder where is the line drawn



Que? Wut's the genre got to do with getting information? Business receipts aren't the same as medical records. Have you never had to sign a Medical Release Form, to get X-Rays or labs to your doctor? 
This is ground-floor stuff. You know the old saw about 'write what you know?"
This is why they say that. Today's marketplace demands a limited sort of expertise in order to explain things. Last night, I became an expert on plate tectonics. The night before, I took a Piled Higher and Deeper in Devonian flora.


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## ironpony

Okay thanks, I will try to do better in my research.


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## ironpony

Oh okay, I've read other crime fiction, but I noticed that other stories will take liberties and make things up to create certain drama too, so not sure how far I can go with that, or when I can, and when I can't.


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## moderan

So we're supposed to hold your hand while you figure it out? 


> I noticed that other stories will take liberties and make things up to create certain drama


If you know this, then why do you ask such questions? And when do you find the time to write?


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## ironpony

I have time to write, it's just this section of the story so far I got writer's block, cause I don't know how the system works.  That is usually the case, I don't know how the system works and the research doesn't tell me everything, so I am not sure how to proceed.


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## moderan

That's just sad. Clearly reading comprehension is an issue. Well, no danger of taking down to the audience.


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## RobbieO

I don't know the greater scope of the plot, but you could include a nod of the head to practice known as Social Engineering in which people specialize in manipulating others through human, psychological, and sociological tendencies to doing what they want.  Perhaps one of your cop characters can have a hacker informant who complains of illness to get a doctor's appointment and then plugs a flash drive with a malicious payload on it into the doctor's laptop when he steps out of the room?  (This really happened).  Perhaps the hacker could merely drop the flash drive in the parking lot with a label that says "Dr. Smith, M.D. - Employee Evaluations" on it, knowing that a nosy nurse wants to see her secret evaluation and will plug the flash drive into an office computer and infect the network/wifi router?  Lots of ways to get patient files without a warrant if your story will allow it.


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## ironpony

Okay thanks for the idea!  I actually thought of this before actually, but wouldn't the hacker just have to hack the computer remotely, and not have to actually physically go to the doctor's office?


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## Darkkin

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks for the idea!  I actually thought of this before actually, but wouldn't the hacker just have to hack the computer remotely, and not have to actually physically go to the doctor's office?



That is for you as a writer to determine, but from a writer's stand point, and that of a reader's as well...These countless questions and scenarios are entirely subjective and often found in well written thrillers.  (Rose, Griffin (Tracer series), Reichs (Bones) Gardener, Jackson)  You want to writer the genre, best piece of advice.  Read, read more, reread and critique.  If reading comprehension is an issue.  Record an interview, listen to audio books, find a medium that effectively conveys the information needed for workable foundations.  Interview people in medical fields, computer science, in law enforcement, talk to a lawyer, a prosecutor...Visit a university, talk to a law professor, but get some basics before you strangle an unwritten story on supposition.  Look at the acknowledgement pages of published authors in the Mystery, Romance, and Fiction (non-Patterson) sections in a bookstore.  The research requisite for these types of stories is in depth, not just countless vague questions on an internet forum.  

Look at the number of questions and compare that with your actual working content.  Heck, just take a look at the stats on just the first page of this subforum's first page...Right now forum members are handing you ideas for work you have not written.  How does that assist you as a writer?  It is like having someone else do you assignment...Sure you have an answer, but it isn't your own.  You don't write the situation, work actively with the characters in the situations, and in essence develop your story.  You say here is the situation, how does it have to play out?  Fill in the blank fiction.  Basic homework, tedious as it is, needs to be done.


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## ironpony

Okay thanks.  Well sometimes when I do research, I want to ask as many people as I can before I write certain sections of the story, cause I don't know how to write computer hacking, until I know more about the hacking, or how the medical field works, and if each clinic has their own database and whether or not they share information.  I could write it, but then I feel I would just making things up without knowing more facts first.


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## Darkkin

This is why it helps to read, read, read, read, read...Especially if you are writing genre.  You do not have to be an expert, but basics are requisite.  The authors noted in my prior post, published...And they cover similar genre material like the medical question and dozens of others.  How do I know?  I read the books and consider what I'm reading, how its written, and how plausible it seems. By polling for ever scenario instead of writing version A or version B and talking to dozens of people about a scene, the idea loses all its impact.  Look at it like a spring unwinding itself.

Write the scene be it with the hacker or as a protagonist breaking in.  See how it goes and post it for critique if you want tangible results.  Stop with the hypothetical and focus on the actual writing.  You might surprise yourself.


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## Ace

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  Well sometimes when I do research, I want to ask as many people as I can before I write certain sections of the story, cause I don't know how to write computer hacking, until I know more about the hacking, or how the medical field works, and if each clinic has their own database and whether or not they share information.  I could write it, but then I feel I would just making things up without knowing more facts first.



Uh no...  You want others to do the research for you, so then you can easily just collect and use the results.


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## ironpony

Okay thanks.  I have been trying to read but a lot of times, when I read about how the law works, or things like that, a lot of details are left out or open to interpretation.


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## Darkkin

This is why you need to write *your* situation.  What works for Writer X might not work for you.  Consider, how does it work with your characters, your parameters, not the specifications of Armchair Expert X.  It is your story find out more about it by writing your situation.  Try before you buy.


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## ironpony

Okay thanks.  Well so far I wrote it so that the hacker hacks into the doctor's computer remotely.  But I was considering taking the suggestion where the hacker actually goes to the officer and sneaks a piece of equipment onto the computer to do it, cause that would be a bit more suspenseful than staying at home probably.


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## epimetheus

ironpony said:


> Basically it would be a general family practitioner doctor's office. If the police flashed their badges and asked for a file on a certain patient, would the people working behind the desk, not being legal experts or anything, just hand it over, or would they ask for a warrant first? Plus would the police need a warrant for that at all?



When i was a nurse i once had the Ministry of Defence chase me for information on one of their soldiers who ended up in a civilian rather than military hospital. Those guys were d*cks, threatened me with all kinds of legal action for not releasing medical information on their soldier. I used to hate anyone harassing my patients for any reason so i didn't budge a millimetre. Some nurses might not care, and other nurses might not respond well to threats from government agencies to look into immigration issues. So i'd ask how unscrupulous are your cops.


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## ironpony

Well what I could do is have it so the main character goes to a more extreme method and perhaps steals one of the doctor's wallets, and uses his key card to get in.  The doctor will assume it was a random wallet theft and not think that the thief is going to use the keycard to break into the building most likely.

However, a lot of buildings nowadays you need more than a key card to get in.  You need a code too, when going in after business hours, undetected, when no one is around.

So do you think the reader would buy into this scenario that you can break into a medical clinic as long as you have a keycard and that's it?


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## CyberWar

There are very specific cases in which doctors are required to disclose information about their patients to the authorities, such as when the patient's mental state may lead him to harm others or himself. Other than that, the police would require a formal warrant to access that information.


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## ironpony

Okay thanks, I can just write it so the main character hacks into the doctor's computer files then to find out the information then, if that's better.


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