# Can young women love old men for what they are, rather than for what they have? Hmmm?



## The Backward OX (Jul 2, 2010)

I am indebted to Olly Buckle for stimulating thought about the subject line. He says, and I quote:


> Originally Posted by *Olly Buckle*
> 
> 
> Human beings come in all shapes and varieties. Somewhere out there is a young and nubile female with a special penchant for old, hairy men with big bellies. You don't want some bimbo whore who is faking it simply because you are rich. Figure out a way to meet the real thing who wants you for what you are; there must be at least one in the world's population, if not more.


 

But I wonder: is this really so? Is it oversimplifying? How about the man _who’s not rich_ and who's by nature either deceitful, or apathetic, or a user of people, for example? Is there really a woman out there who’d love such a man for what he is? That, in effect, is what Olly said, and what I question.

Perhaps the following comparison might make it easier to understand:

Man #1 is dirt poor, sees women only as sex objects, is 65-70 years old. If you are a young woman, would you live with him?

Man #2 has just won $50million in lotto, sees women only as sex objects, is 65-70 years old. If you are a young woman, would you live with him?


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## JosephB (Jul 2, 2010)

I'm sure that somewhere out there are few young women with grandpa fetishes who also happen to have no standards and zero self-esteem. Good luck.


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## SilverMoon (Jul 2, 2010)

Olly Buckle said:
			
		

> Human beings come in all shapes and varieties. Somewhere out there is a young and nubile female with a special penchant for old, hairy men with big bellies....Figure out a way to meet the real thing who wants you for what you are


A "very" interesting question. Since, I dated, had relationships with older men, I feel qualified to speak. Now, I'm going sound like _Dear Abbey!_ 

As to finding a younger woman who'd be interested in an older man? First, stay away from bars or in your case, Olley, pubs! Go to the library, book store, museum, take up a "writing" class! Any place where you're likely to find a young woman of substance.  


			
				Backward OX said:
			
		

> How about the man _who’s not rich_ and who's by nature either deceitful, or apathetic, or a user of people, for example?


Now, from personal experience. Ox, one date with a man of "any" age who exhibits these qualities never gets a second date with me. I think the operative word here is "rich". I've never dated a pauper but men who can at least support themselves and then, yes, some financially better off. Now, you either take my word or dismiss it. That is out of my control. But financial standing made no difference to me. I made a decent living for "myself."

Shapes, traditional good looks were never a figuring factor. Intellegence and a sense of humour were. Common interests, all the better.

Early on in my experience, dating older men made me feel less lonely. Why? I had been through much in my teenage years and by the age of twenty one really had the maturation level of a much older women. I was simply lonely and board with boys. They made me feel old! 

I learned much from older men. Visits to the museum, they, pointing out works and explaining the artist's background, hipping me to books, talks about foriegn films, their meanings, and the nature of such stuff. 



			
				moi said:
			
		

> find a young woman of substance.


 
Culled from a decent article. See link below.


			
				Article said:
			
		

> *I suddenly noticed these women were studying from test prep books with the letters “SAT” on the cover.* Doh! Talk about an older men younger women nightmare. But then I figured they must be high school girls, friends of my daughter who recognized me and wanted to say hello.
> Oh, but wait. I eavesdropped a bit and heard them talking about law school. I looked at the books again. Turns out they were _LSAT_ books. These younger women were college graduates prepping for law school entrance exams.
> To make a long story short – yes I chatted them up (did you think I wouldn’t say a word? Flirt daily! It’s good for you.)


 
http://dadshouseblog.com/2009/09/28/older-men-and-younger-women/


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## JosephB (Jul 2, 2010)

SilverMoon said:


> As Joe said, you wan't to stay clear of younger women who "have no standards and zero self-esteem."



But Silvermoon, any women who'd be willing to settle for someone "who's by nature either deceitful, or apathetic, or a user of people" would obviously have self-esteem issues. This would be someone who doesn't think much of herself and would be willing to settle for just about anyone. So this old man should be looking for just this kind of women.


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## Baron (Jul 2, 2010)

In Ox's case the pub, the museum, the library and the book store are all the same place.


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## SilverMoon (Jul 2, 2010)

JosephB said:
			
		

> But Silvermoon, any women who'd be willing to settle for someone "who's by nature either deceitful, or apathetic, or a user of people" would obviously have self-esteem issues. This would be someone who doesn't think much of herself and would be willing to settle for just about anyone. So this old man should be looking for just this kind of women.


 
Just to set the record straight.


			
				moi said:
			
		

> one date with a man of "any" age who exhibits these qualities never gets a second date with me.


 
Now you're getting into pathology which is interesting. To narrow what you have to say down with an example. For instance, I can see an insecure older man looking for a mother figure in a woman, who may indeed be younger. A woman who doesn't want to face her own pathology, born of insecurity and "focus" on her child-older-man. We could go deep because there are other factors involved, both psychological (as exampled) and sociological (stigmatization).



> a user of people


Older men. Any men with this quality are usually the ones who climb up the corporate ladder and find themselves some arm candy or the perfect socialite wife. Or both. Yes. I can see insecurity here. And in the women. Both feeding off each other.


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## SilverMoon (Jul 2, 2010)

Baron said:
			
		

> In Ox's case the pub, the museum, the library and the book store are all the same place.


Ox. Wherdya go? I expect nothing but a good comeback from you. Maybe, this thread thus far has been so enlightening that you've already headed for the bookstore. Let us know how it went!


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## Baron (Jul 2, 2010)

JosephB said:


> But Silvermoon, any women who'd be willing to settle for someone "who's by nature either deceitful, or apathetic, or a user of people" would obviously have self-esteem issues. This would be someone who doesn't think much of herself and would be willing to settle for just about anyone. So this old man should be looking for just this kind of women.


 
Isn't the best wit always laced with truth?!  

As for the OP:


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## The Backward OX (Jul 2, 2010)

Baron said:


> In Ox's case the pub, the museum, the library and the book store are all the same place.



There's either a hidden message in there somewhere, or it's early-onset Alzeheimer's.


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## The Backward OX (Jul 2, 2010)

bleep


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## alanmt (Jul 2, 2010)

OX:  

The answer to your question is no.  No, they can't.  If you don't have money or fame or something similarly spectacular, she won't want you unless she is broken.

Of course, it does depend on how you define young.  If an 18 year old falls in love with a hunky/well-preserved 50 year old guy, she may well continue to love him at 70 when she is 38.   But if you look like an old man at 70, the best new catch you can reasonably hope for is an unattractive woman in her 50s.

I do think Ollie is kinda hot. So maybe he would have some luck with this.  How old are you Ollie?


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## Like a Fox (Jul 2, 2010)

I didn't get Baron's joke either, Ox. Some crack about the bush maybe?

I'd like to flip the question. What does an older guy want with a young chick? Her mind? Or the fact that she's at her physical and sexual peak?

And if it's the latter, which obviously plays a part, then the money thing make sense to me.
 Instead of dating young agile boys, she goes the man with the blue pills where she'll have to do all the work, but she gets paid a little, ya know.


That is not my serious answer.

My serious answer is this - My 23 year old friend and her 46 year old partner are very happy together. She has been attracted to older men since she was legal, never showing any interest in anyone our age. He doesn't have that much money, and she is working hard at her own career. For her it was always the attraction of a man with a life and career and not some floundering finding-himself thing. She also likes being different, never wanting to be the struggling young couple just starting their adult lives. She wants hers now. Which she'll get in a hurry dealing with his ex wife and the two kids who are closer to her age than she is to his.

My Dad's wife is twenty years younger than him. I'm pretty sure they like each other for each other. 

I personally prefer talking to older men and ... cavorting with younger. So you know. I'm very single. 
But I can see a girl liking an older man for reasons other than money. Intelligence, knowledge, wisdom. The maturity can be very appealing.   

Of course if this is for you Ox, obviously the maturity thing doesn't apply.


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## garza (Jul 2, 2010)

Of course younger women can fall for older men. My current #1 Lady is only 58. So there.


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## SilverMoon (Jul 2, 2010)

alanmt said:
			
		

> No, they can't. If you don't have money or fame or something similarly spectacular, she won't want you unless she is broken.


alanmt, this is the proverbial opinion in society. A broad generalization. There are exceptions to this "notion". I appreciate quality over quantity $$$. _This_ does not make me "broken" by any means. I simply find better company with intellegent, cultured men, who in my experience happen to be older.


			
				SilverMoon said:
			
		

> I've learned much from older men. Visits to the museum, he pointing out works and explaining the artist's background, hipping me to books, talks about foriegn films, their meanings, and the nature of such stuff.


 
I see that Fox is of the same frame of mind and younger women who date older men are stigmatized. It's not all about "bling." 



			
				Like a Fox said:
			
		

> I personally prefer talking to older men......I can see a girl liking an older man for reasons other than money. Intelligence, knowledge, wisdom. The maturity can be very appealing.


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## Baron (Jul 2, 2010)

Edna, isn't it just a pipe dream when the words "erection" and "resurrection" become synonyms?


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## alanmt (Jul 2, 2010)

Like a Fox said:


> My serious answer is this - My 23 year old friend and her 46 year old partner are very happy together.


 
No offense, K, but this 46 year old guy would like to point out that the question was not about "older men" but about "old men", and I would self-centeredly suggest that 46 doesn't quite qualify as an old man.



View attachment 1052


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## Olly Buckle (Jul 2, 2010)

alanmt said:


> OX:
> 
> The answer to your question is no.  No, they can't.  If you don't have money or fame or something similarly spectacular, she won't want you unless she is broken.
> 
> I do think Ollie is kinda hot. So maybe he would have some luck with this.  How old are you Ollie?



I am 65 coming up 66, and you are wrong, the fallacy in Ox's post is that he is talking about a man who is only interested in sex, it is interest in the person that counts with women, well most women, as I said originally there are all sorts of people.


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## SilverMoon (Jul 2, 2010)

And I, along with other women, find silver hair very appealing. So you've got it going on, Olley!


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## Patrick (Jul 2, 2010)

Olly Buckle said:


> it is interest in the person that counts with women, well most women,


 
Not really.


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## Like a Fox (Jul 2, 2010)

Mermaid on the breakwater said:


> Not really.


Said the expert?


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## Linton Robinson (Jul 2, 2010)

I would say that the whole "settle for" and "low self esteem" assumptions here--in addition to being unwarranted write-offs of decisions and feelings of other people--show an inability to think outside one's own narrow societal envelope.

The idea that there is something wrong with a grandfather "fixation", but not with an "abdominal fixation" or "Porsche driver fixation" or whatever is externalizing one's own values on others.

In fact, those who've lived in more than one part of the world (or the little bubble of one's own world that so many always carry around with them, not allowing any real perception of other cultures they travel in)  have seen other ways in which mating works (some would say "works better than the romantic movie model of the US--where the divorce rate is equal to the marriage rate, by the way).

I've seen societies in which the ideal dream catch for a young woman might be a widowed friend of her father: a man who will dote on her like both lover and daughter rather than the often fierce struggles with younger men, who will take her into an established home and societal position, who will die and leave her his goods when she's still young enough to have a life of her own, etc.

It's really sort of natural for the race in many ways.  In older times and more primitive society it's pretty obvious that a nubile woman needs a man who can take care of her and her children.  Boys her age work to build that ability and mate when it makes sense.
There are biological underpinnings for this: one being that girls tend to consider boys their own age immature.

I've known American girls who figured out that sexual initiation could work out better with an older, gentler, more experienced man than with some knucklehead kid.  Were they wrong?  They look back on it and don't think so.   Who else should judge it?

I once spoke to Bud Cort, an actor in several Altman films who became a bit of a cult figure because of his title role in "Harold and Maude" which featured a love affair between an old woman (Ruth Gordon) and young man.
I asked him what he thought about the real-world application of the film (I was interviewing him for a singles publication funded largely by ads by men seeking younger women and women seeking more "$ecure" men).
He said,  "In this crazy, hostile world we live in it's so difficult for any two people to love each other.  It would be insane to restrict things any more than they already are: if you can find somebody to love, who loves you, don't turn it down on technicalities."


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## Linton Robinson (Jul 2, 2010)

Then there's this.  Which I assume the psychosexual imperialists will immediately jump on as entailing interests in something other than "real self"  (for some reason a woman having a nice body is not considered interest inimical with "self")

I run into this all the time in Mexico.

A young woman wants to have a life and family.  Maybe she already has kids, but no husband.  (Abandoning families is a habit of Mexican men).  Her kids live in the dirt, won't learn to read, will go hungry at times.

A man looks at her in the square, catches her eye.  He's older,  wears nice clothes, maybe has a car.  Maybe she knows who he is, has seen his house.  Or maybe she just knows he's a good man with a job or farm or something.

There are no guys her age around--they all went to work in the US.  None of them could  support a family.  None of them could be trusted not to abandon any family they have.  Her mother and older women tell her not to remarry because the man will molest her children as soon as they get of age--another common habit in Mexico (and elsewhere).   The guys her age waste all their money on alcohol and beat their women. She sees a man who could be a father, give her kids a chance.  He looks kindly, looks loving and accepting.  Maybe he's a foreigner, who have reputations for being more responsible and less machista and alcoholic than Mexican men.

Would she be attracted to this man?  Maybe respond to him speaking to her, wooing her?

Now.

Would that attraction be some sicko fixation?  Would it be financial subversion of the allegedly normal romantic process?  Or would it be a woman's impulse to seek out a mate who would be suitable and offer a better survival chance for her offspring?

The whole idea that there is this "self" or "soul mate" thing that is right and normal, and anything external to it is cheap or perverted breaks down pretty quickly when you examine it.

Why would the younger man be a better match?  Because he's handsome?  Muscular?  Has more hair and teeth?    Are these part of the soul package?   Are the less superficial than ability to maintain a family?


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## JosephB (Jul 2, 2010)

lin said:


> I would say that the whole "settle for" and "low self esteem" assumptions here--in addition to being unwarranted write-offs of decisions and feelings of other people--show an inability to think outside one's own narrow societal envelope



You are missing the point and apparently didn't take in the whole OP. I was referring to this:



> and who's by nature either deceitful, or apathetic, or a user of people, for example?



Someone who settles for that doesn't think much of herself and thinks she can't do better. Doesn't have much to do with age. That's about self-esteem.

Yes, I know I said "old man fetish" but we're talking about OX here, so I wan't being entirely serious about that. Fox and Silvermoon have made a fine case for why a young girl would be attracted to an older man and I totally appreciate that. It's really just common sense.


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## Patrick (Jul 2, 2010)

Like a Fox said:


> Said the expert?


 
Not really. :wink:

I do know people, however, and I know that the thing people look for the most is what somebody else can do for them. You can take your pick there. Whether it's sexually, or a question of security. For that reason, I don't think it's impossible at all for a woman to like a really old man. There are people who I believe do have a relationship that transcends these selfish desires, but they aren't the majority. It annoys me that people have developed this idea that women like men more for who they are than men do women. If you're going by the majority of both sexes, you can forget about that. Most relationships usually boil down to a trade-off, but never an explicit one. I can afford you this, and you can offer me this in return. Some are happy with that and it's their right to be but I don't gloss over it. I see it as rather transparent.


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## Linton Robinson (Jul 2, 2010)

> but we're talking about OX here



"You didn't read the OP" is such a brain-dead cliche for "i want to argue but can't figure out why".

But since you want to be a stickler--and interpret all my remarks as being about you--(huge shockers)  here comes another shocker... your reading of the OP seems a little off.   It said "older* men*".   You see the difference, right?
Possibly not.
OK...it means it's a general question.  And my responses to it (which I assume you were in too much of a huff to read) are general remarks.


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## JosephB (Jul 2, 2010)

I’m the only one in the entire thread who mentioned the words, “low self-esteem” and “settling” – which you repeat in quotation marks -- yet you now claim you aren’t referring to my comments. That’s hilarious -- and complete B.S. Anyone could see that.

And yes. I use the brain-dead cliché when it obviously applies. I’ve explained how and you can’t or won’t see it.


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## Linton Robinson (Jul 2, 2010)

Gee, Ms. Diva, sorry to tell you that I didn't really do a census on those particular words.  I noticed them and responded.  One was way down the posts, but I now see that they were quoting you.

For you to call me "brain dead" is obviously just a childish insult without any real referent.  But I don't think you are up to the irony of realizing that what I said was a general statement about young women and older *MEN* 

You took it as a personal thing (as you so often  do) and then come back with a rebuttal about it insisting that yes, it IS all about you.

Funny to viewers.  Opaque to you.  Moderately pitiful.


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## Baron (Jul 2, 2010)

No more personal attacks, please.


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## Olly Buckle (Jul 2, 2010)

Mermaid on the breakwater said:


> Not really. :wink:
> 
> I do know people, however, and I know that the thing people look for the most is what somebody else can do for them..



My original point was that we all only know some people, yes people look for what people can do for them, but some people want some weird thingswhich make an older man look quite reasonable, so I reckon there must be a few, but how does Bourke find Hare; Lennon, McCartney?


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## Linton Robinson (Jul 2, 2010)

> No more personal attacks, please.



Sounds good to me.  Personal BS brings out the worst in me.

I know there are those who don't me like saying this, but am I the only one who notices how often--like in this thread--it only becomes personal when one of a couple of the moderator blows a fuse and starts making it that way?

Any chance of that diminishing some?  It's just weird when so much acrimony starts from those who are supposed to be quelling it.


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## Baron (Jul 2, 2010)

lin said:


> Sounds good to me.  Personal BS brings out the worst in me.
> 
> I know there are those who don't me like saying this, but am I the only one who notices how often--like in this thread--it only becomes personal when one of a couple of the moderator blows a fuse and starts making it that way?
> 
> Any chance of that diminishing some?  It's just weird when so much acrimony starts from those who are supposed to be quelling it.


 
My post applied to everyone.


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## Linton Robinson (Jul 2, 2010)

> some people want some weird things which make an older man look quite  reasonable,



Well, again, one person's "weird things" are another person's desiderata.  I'd invite you to read my two posts above on some other cultures.  (And wondering why it's less "self" to consider advantages of a mate, rather than muscles or tits or sex appeal)

Your question on how people hook up is one that's always interested me.  And generally turns out to be something lke people of the same interests funneling into a scene like Brit art schools or Haight-Ashbury or something.

But much of what you're getting at is by no means trivial and intriques me.   I had a series of almost a dozen girlfriends, all of whom sooner or later identified themselves as victims of child sex abuse and incest.  I was beginning to think everybody screws their daughters,  but discussions on the matter convinced me that I was just walking around with a big invisible sign on my head saying, "Adult Victim of Sex Abuse: Hit on this Guy".

The "invisible sign" thing has become an object of great interest and I've found few answers.

I've run into other examples of it, though, from people who realize it's happening.  One was a woman I knew in California, a waitress but could have been a model/actress.  Beautiful and fun.  Former drug whore, basically.  And what she told me was like,  "I'd walk into this place and here are all these preening men trying to catch my eye, but I'm not getting any tickle, then I spot some guy over at the bar, ordinary looking guy.  Once it was a guy in his mid-forties wearing the uniform of a snack suplply service.  I go over and talk, end up moving in with the guy.  Who is a major dealer.  It's almost like they have a little glowing halo around them."

Another woman with whom I was very good friends with was a teen runaway/druggie/drunkie before she got into The Program.  She said almost the same thing, all the guys in some bar or biker hangout want to hit on the little tightie, but she'd spot the ones who moved weight right off.  And come on to them.

She described these men who use drugs to keep young, cute women around as "predators" by the way.  I said, "But you approached them, wanting to trade sex for drugs."  She thought about it and shrugged, said,  "I was a teen-aged twat on dope."

It's a topic that isn't much investigated, and goes beyond what we accept as the normal stimuli, but it's definitely there.
'


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## Linton Robinson (Jul 2, 2010)

> My post applied to everyone.



As well it should.


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## The Backward OX (Jul 2, 2010)

Joe - the thread isn't ABOUT me.

Lin - Over time, I've noticed you occasionally infer acrimony where none is implied. If you became more aware of this in yourself we'd have less of people like Baron having to draw their nightstick.


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## Linton Robinson (Jul 2, 2010)

Of course it's not about you, silly.  It's all about him.   

I don't see any nightstick.  People like Baron don't bother me.

But I gotta say that getting stuff like 


> complete B.S. Anyone could see that.
> 
> And yes. I use the brain-dead cliché when it obviously applies. I’ve  explained how and you can’t or won’t see it.


and "clueless"

from a "moderator"  sounds like acrimony to me.  
I would say I posted some pretty thoughtful posts here on this topic.  For free.  Which I mention because I often get paid pretty money for writing stuff like that.  But I thought it added to the discussion.
Wrong--what it got was the voice of moderation jumping it because it's "all about him" and therefore I'm a clueless troll.

So, yeah, that doesn't make much sense to me.  Maybe I should just stop posting?   
Maybe some of the moderators here should try to smooth over trouble instead of fanning it or starting it?
What do you think?


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## Baron (Jul 2, 2010)

I think that the moderators mentioned have taken notice of my warning post and you haven't, Lin.


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## The Backward OX (Jul 2, 2010)

Oh, wow. 


_OX folds tent and steals silently away._


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