# Judging System Voting



## Shawn

Okay, Ladies and Gentlemen, the day has arrived where we can finally put this fruitless discussion behind us!

You can cheer now.

Anyway, there are four choices for our new Judging system. They are listed below... read them and digest them, don't just tick off something.

*Choice number one is the original system, of course.*

*Choice number two is Cran's system.
*


			
				Cran's Judging System said:
			
		

> *A proposed guideline for panel reviews *is included below. Scoring is out of twenty.
> The guideline includes components for _objective _and _subjective_ assessment.
> As artistic judgements are considered paramount, the scoring components are therefore weighted towards the _subjective_ assessment (12/20). The highest cumulative score in the final tally shall be considered the winner(s) of *the panel of review*.
> 
> _Elements of English expression:_
> Spelling and appropriate word use/vocabulary;
> Self consistent and appropriate punctuation (if any);
> Apt title;
> phrase/clause comprehension -
> * /4 points*.
> 
> 0/4 – Illegible or unreadable .
> 1/4 – Multiple classes of errors.
> 2/4 - Consistent minor error/s.
> 3/4 – No obvious flaws, competent and effective composition.
> 4/4 - Masterful use of language and phrasing.
> 
> _Elements of Poetry:_
> Self consistent and conforming poem type (if any);
> Apt use of poetic, Middle English, foreign or otherwise exotic word forms (if any);
> Known or accepted literary devices (if any)
> ?? (anything specific to the craft of poetry that is not included above)
> */4 points.*
> 
> 0/4- None.
> 1/4 – Erratic or uninteresting structure.
> 2/4 - Effective yet inconsistent.
> 3/4 – Consistently suitable structure.
> 4/4 – Appropriately fitting and flawlessly framed.
> 
> 
> *Effectiveness: *
> The remaining 12 points are allocated at the reviewer’s discretion.
> Elements to consider might include -
> 
> _Addressing the theme:_
> Concept, connectedness, centrality;
> Approach, form, originality;
> Image, flow, emotional tone
> 
> _Addressing the reading:_
> Aesthetic elements (visual, vocal, aural appeal);
> Empathetic, evocative, or their antitheses (emotional, sensual appeal);
> Interest, enjoyment (thematic, intellectual appeal)
> */12 points.*
> 
> Every scored entry should be accompanied by a brief review; consider highlighting strengths and weaknesses, suggestions (if any), and overall appeal.


*
Thirdly, is the system I put forth initially.*



			
				Shawn's Judging System said:
			
		

> *Thematic Resonance - 5 Points
> Technical Excellence - 5 Points
> Composition - 5 Points
> Message - 5 Points
> Originality - 5 Points*
> 
> *Total - 25 Points*
> 
> This is the deal and the balance. There are three categories that deal with non-technical aspects: thematic resonance, or how clearly the theme comes through; message, or the actual theme; and originality, or how uniquely the message is shown. Those three are worth 15 points, or 60% of the total score. Then there are two technical categories: Technical excellence, or grammar (as far as that may go) and spelling; and composition, or the use of poetic device in the poem.



*And fourthly, the original system with the "Alliteration and Assonance" Category expanded to include all poetic devices.*


----------



## Patrick

Given the chances to vote, I've decided that cran's system would encompass a wide range of aspects of poetry and is probably the most extensive guide.


----------



## Baron

Cran's system is much too complex.  Having worked on all areas of this challenge I strongly recommend that the system emplyed should be that most easily workable from the judge's point of view.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

The original system was good, but any one of the three new ideas are better. Even expanded, the original system puts too much emphasis on using each of the categories.  Between Cran's system, and shawn's system, I have to go with Shawn's.  Even though Cran's system is equal concerning comfortable allocation of points, Shawn's technical categories focus a bit less on conventions, and allow a bit more room for working around a "flaw" that the judge may not think deserves all of the credit it's getting.  Also, Cran's descriptions of each point value are in my mind a little bit too structured.


----------



## Baron

Ilasir Maroa said:


> The original system was good, but any one of the three new ideas are better. Even expanded, the original system puts too much emphasis on using each of the categories. Between Cran's system, and shawn's system, I have to go with Shawn's. Even though Cran's system is equal concerning comfortable allocation of points, Shawn's technical categories focus a bit less on conventions, and allow a bit more room for working around a "flaw" that the judge may not think deserves all of the credit it's getting. Also, Cran's descriptions of each point value are in my mind a little bit too structured.


I'd like to add that Cran's system would be much more time consuming and that is a great stroke against it given that the people who would be judging, I assume, have to devote time to things other than the forum.


----------



## Patrick

Baron said:


> I'd like to add that Cran's system would be much more time consuming and that is a great stroke against it given that the people who would be judging, I assume, have to devote time to things other than the forum.



Silence in the court, the jury is to strike this evidence from the record, lol.

I do see what you're saying but I am not sure how time consuming it would be. I think all the methods are time consuming if judged properly.


----------



## Baron

Mermaid on the breakwater said:


> Silence in the court, the jury is to strike this evidence from the record, lol.
> 
> I do see what you're saying but I am not sure how time consuming it would be. I think all the methods are time consuming if judged properly.


Some more than others.  I've been involved in this from the beginning and I've seen all aspects of it.  I can say quite clealy that I would not volunteer my own time if a system that is unnecessarily complex gets adopted.


----------



## Cran

Yes, I can see how a system with _3 sections _
is much more complex than a system with _5 sections_
or a system with _10 sections_ ... 

and that:


> The remaining 12 points are allocated at *the reviewer’s discretion*.
> Elements to consider *might include*


would make it much more structured than set point benchmarks for everything ... 

you're right - the original _LM guide_, adapted for poetry, is simply 
way beyond anyone's capacity ... 
I don't know how they've managed for this long ...


----------



## Baron

Cran said:


> Yes, I can see how a system with _3 sections _
> is much more complex than a system with _5 sections_
> or a system with _10 sections_ ...
> 
> and that:
> 
> would make it much more structured than set point benchmarks for everything ...
> 
> you're right - the original _LM guide_, adapted for poetry, is simply
> way beyond anyone's capacity ...
> I don't know how they've managed for this long ...


It's really beyond me that you've made such a big issue of trying to enforce your ideas, to the extent that two members of the admin team have now washed their hands of the challenge.


----------



## Patrick

Whilst I am in favour of the system you've put together, Cran, I think we all need to have enough respect to allow each person to vote without drama. That goes for you too, baron. I will come down off of my soapbox now but you two play nice.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

Cran look, personally, I would have voted for you if shawn's system had not been proposed.  I just find Shawn's more open, because each category leaves room for a bit of flexibility.  There's nothing wrong with your system, and if it wins the vote, then I have no problem with it being used.


----------



## Baron

Mermaid on the breakwater said:


> Whilst I am in favour of the system you've put together, Cran, I think we all need to have enough respect to allow each person to vote without drama. That goes for you too, baron. I will come down off of my soapbox now but you two play nice.


This is better than the debate forum :joker:


----------



## Patrick

Baron said:


> This is better than the debate forum :joker:



And I am usually straight in there in the debate forum!!


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

As long as you mean better in terms of people being respectful, Baron.  Otherwise, keep it out of here.  We had enough drama aready.


----------



## Baron

Ilasir Maroa said:


> As long as you mean better in terms of people being respectful, Baron. Otherwise, keep it out of here. We had enough drama aready.


Ilasir, I have kept my comments to the forum. I have not sent abusive pm's to those who have disagreed with me and have responded to only two of those that Cran has sent to me. The very fact of this challenge has been threatened by such behavious, which has caused both Foxee and Selorian to decide that they want nothing to do with it. All posts that I have made in debate about this have been with a view to keeping the challenge going and not to placate any one person, no matter how forcefully that person chooses to express his view.

Cran has repeatedly said that he will not post any more if he is causing upset, yet persists in the same attitude. As I initiated this challenge I would like to see it continue, not go down the tubes because one person insists on his view to the point of badgering all others involved until they no longer want anything to do with it.


----------



## Cran

interesting how one post from me in this thread 
is "making a big issue" out of it, but 3 posts from *Baron* is not ...

perhaps it would have been better (or at least less stressful) if it had not been included - that would have made *Baron* happier, and me less involved ... 

and if *Shawn* would like to confirm: 

1. I did *not* press (nor even suggest) to have the _LM_ adapted system included in this poll - 
that decision came from elsewhere ... 


2. that the sections in *Shawn*'s system include (or at least assume) elements not yet spelled out (eg, what does a judge look for to determine, say, _Technical Excellence_?)


Ultimately, it doesn't matter what system is used, or none at all - 
but what the judges have to work with, and what the entrants can expect ... 
any system can be a starting framework, 
and over time, every system gets tweaked or amended 
to suit ongoing requirements or to redress shortcomings ... 

To believe that any document as presented is "the final word"
really flies in the face of all of history and our experience -
how many amendments are there in the _Declaration of Independence_, for example?


----------



## Baron

Cran said:


> interesting how one post from me in this thread
> is "making a big issue" out of it, but 3 posts from *Baron* is not ...
> 
> perhaps it would have been better (or at least less stressful) if it had not been included - that would have made *Baron* happier, and me less involved ...
> 
> and if *Shawn* would like to confirm:
> 
> 1. I did *not* press (nor even suggest) to have the _LM_ adapted system included in this poll -
> that decision came from elsewhere ...
> 
> 
> 2. that the sections in *Shawn*'s system include (or at least assume) elements not yet spelled out (eg, what does a judge look for to determine, say, _Technical Excellence_?)
> 
> 
> Ultimately, it doesn't matter what system is used, or none at all -
> but what the judges have to work with, and what the entrants can expect ...
> any system can be a starting framework,
> and over time, every system gets tweaked or amended
> to suit ongoing requirements or to redress shortcomings ...
> 
> To believe that any document as presented is "the final word"
> really flies in the face of all of history and our experience -
> how many amendments are there in the _Declaration of Independence_, for example?


This debate has not been confined to this thread.  The posts in the Bard's Bistro thread clealy indicate the way that the wind was blowing and, irrespective of who is righ and who is wrong, I believe that any person with anything other than self interest motivating him would have backed down on seeing that pressuring the admin was placing the challenge under threat for all.


----------



## Patrick

Before either of you post in response to one another I think you need to take a step back. The points you're both making really don't need to be made here in this thread. We've had the rows which didn't get resolved in a different thread so we're resolving the issue with a poll. The arguments have been made for each of the guidelines and I don't think going over the old tensions is necessary. I have no problem with cran stating the case for why he thinks his system should be adopted but i also think the time for that is over. You had your chance, Cran, and you had yours Baron, now let everyone else decide.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

Maybe I should have put a smiley on that...:mrgreen:


----------



## Baron

Mermaid on the breakwater said:


> Before either of you post in response to one another I think you need to take a step back. The points you're both making really don't need to be made here in this thread. We've had the rows which didn't get resolved in a different thread so we're resolving the issue with a poll. The arguments have been made for each of the guidelines and I don't think going over the old tensions is necessary. I have no problem with cran stating the case for why he thinks his system should be adopted but i also think the time for that is over. You had your chance, Cran, and you had yours Baron, now let everyone else decide.


I fully agree with you.  I also don't really want any more of the insulting pm's I've been receiving.  So let's just let the vote take it.


----------



## Cran

I'm not debating - the only one treating discussions like debates is ...?

And I'd have no reason to post or reply if others weren't insisting on 
portraying what they think I mean, and dragging my name into every aspect ... 

as for _admin/mod_ reactions - 
if I've been so terrible and wrong, why not simply ban me?

[edit] replies since - OK ... and yes, whatever eventuates ...


----------



## Baron

Cran said:


> I'm not debating - the only one treating discussions like debates is ...?
> 
> And I'd have no reason to post or reply if others weren't insisting on
> portraying what they think I mean, and dragging my name into every aspect ...
> 
> as for _admin/mod_ reactions -
> if I've been so terrible and wrong, why not simply ban me?
> 
> [edit] replies since - OK ... and yes, whatever eventuates ...


You're just arguing with yourself from this point on, Cran, unless someone else wants to spar with you.


----------



## Shawn

This thread will be for voting. If you'd like to discuss this further, take it to the Bard's Bistro.

I think I stated quite clearly what was going to happen in the next few days; and there _will_ be a challenge on Monday, however much dispute there is over the judging criteria. And the system voted in here _will_ be the basis for the system for the rest of the competition as long as I am the one administrating. Anyone who would like to dispute that, or would like to change something without being a judge giving suggestions, can kindly cease to participate.

We are deciding things by popular vote here, I am going to be much less willing than Selorian to have these issues to be thrown up into the air at the whim of participants who will not take the competition for what it's worth.

The poetry matters, not the winners.


----------



## Baron

Shawn said:


> This thread will be for voting. If you'd like to discuss this further, take it to the Bard's Bistro.
> 
> I think I stated quite clearly what was going to happen in the next few days; and there _will_ be a challenge on Monday, however much dispute there is over the judging criteria. And the system voted in here _will_ be the basis for the system for the rest of the competition as long as I am the one administrating. Anyone who would like to dispute that, or would like to change something without being a judge giving suggestions, can kindly cease to participate.
> 
> We are deciding things by popular vote here, I am going to be much less willing than Selorian to have these issues to be thrown up into the air at the whim of participants who will not take the competition for what it's worth.
> 
> The poetry matters, not the winners.


You have my absolute agreement.


----------



## Shawn

The Poll is now closed and so is this thread.

Thank you for you cooperation.


----------

