# Punctuation and Poetry (or lack of)



## PiP (Sep 1, 2016)

The more I study poetry the more confused I become. For example, why do so many poets choose not to use punctuation? Surely lack of punctuation makes a poem more challenging to read as it lacks clarity? I get the fact that poets like to push the boundaries and break down walls but what about the reader?

Or why do some poets capitalize the first letter of every line?

Is poetry writing an exception to the normal rules of grammar?

On a mission I then found this interesting article by Kukogho Iruesiri Samson
some of which I have shared below for reference.



> *UNDERSTANDING POETRY: THE PLACE OF PUNCTUATION IN A POEM*
> 
> When I started writing poetry consciously in 2002, it was not unusual to see me reading a poem by the greats _– like Shakespeare, Yeats, Frost, Clark, Leopold and their contemporaries –_ and then writing a mirror poem.Then, I could work on a poem for days trying to master the existing styles (mostly sonnets and other metered poems). As a result, my poems were mostly with rhyme, rhythm and regular meter for years, until around 2009.
> 
> ...




What is your preference? If you choose not to use punctuation, please explain the reasoning behind your decision.


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## Ariel (Sep 1, 2016)

Capitalizing the first line of verse is a convention that goes back to _publishers_ and not poets.  It's dated and actually phasing out now.


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## Phil Istine (Sep 1, 2016)

I do prefer to use punctuation in pretty much the same way as I do in prose, but there are exceptions.  One exception I can think of is where avoiding punctuation would leave part of the poem's meaning ambiguous.  Sometimes such ambiguity may be desirable, in order for the reader to decide which path to take.


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## Firemajic (Sep 1, 2016)

Pip, I do NOT like punctuation in poetry... hate it! Line breaks works for me, Stanzas are used by me to move the poem forward to a new thought/emotion...Punctuation stifles the flow, makes me pause or stop, when maybe, I don't want to... ') JMO....


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## Deleted member 59879 (Sep 1, 2016)

I've just attended a punctuation in poetry workshop and, yes, the first one caps are pretty much obsolete except, perhaps, for classical poetic forms.  The only rule seems now to be, if you use a capital letter, you must end somewhere with a full stop.  Commas are useful within lines but line's end is now considered pause enough, whether or not you enjamb.  Punctuation has always been a way of providing recognisable pauses for a reader so should be used judiciously.  Spaces and dashes have their place much as Tim has described in his discussion for his recent poem on white horses.  Sparingly used, punctuation can emphasise like nothing else can (other than words of course which is why we don't usually use italics or exclamation marks, but choose the perfect word).


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## Ariel (Sep 1, 2016)

For me punctuation controls the flow of a poem.  It goes back to end-stops and enjambment.  Perhaps I should have a discussion over those next month while the PiP is a picture prompt?


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## PiP (Sep 1, 2016)

Firemajic said:


> Pip, I do NOT like punctuation in poetry... hate it! Line breaks works for me, Stanzas are used by me to move the poem forward to a new thought/emotion...Punctuation stifles the flow, makes me pause or stop, when maybe, I don't want to... ') JMO....



Have you never used punctuation, Juls? I wonder if its use declines as the poet becomes more experienced and uses other devices.


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## Ariel (Sep 1, 2016)

PiP said:


> Have you never used punctuation, Juls? I wonder if it's use fades as the poet becomes more experienced and uses other devices.



I've been writing poetry for almost fifteen years now and at least ten after studying poetry in college.  I use punctuation _more_ than I used to when I first started writing.  I think it depends on the poet.


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## PiP (Sep 1, 2016)

TaniAliya said:


> I've just attended a punctuation in poetry workshop and, yes, the first one caps are pretty much obsolete except, perhaps, for classical poetic forms.  The only rule seems now to be, if you use a capital letter, you must end somewhere with a full stop.  Commas are useful within lines but line's end is now considered pause enough, whether or not you enjamb.  Punctuation has always been a way of providing recognisable pauses for a reader so should be used judiciously.  Spaces and dashes have their place much as Tim has described in his discussion for his recent poem on white horses.  Sparingly used, punctuation can emphasise like nothing else can (other than words of course which is why we don't usually use italics or exclamation marks, but choose the perfect word).



Thanks, Tani, I have since read Tim's thoughts on the use of the em space and I had not considered the points raised. Interesting!

_Punctuation has always been a way of providing recognisable pauses for a reader so should be used judiciously._

^ this ^
So when using punctuation it should be used in moderation?


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## Firemajic (Sep 1, 2016)

PiP said:


> Have you never used punctuation, Juls? I wonder if its use declines as the poet becomes more experienced and uses other devices.





I used to use punctuation when I first started writing poetry, and I struggled... I felt ... inhibited. As I stated experimenting with form and style, I wanted freedom ...


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## clark (Sep 1, 2016)

I'm in a rush right now, but wanted to get in a 'starter post'.  Much more later.   Quick point--someone has already made the point that punctuation (P) serves much the same purpose in poetry as in prose.  I would question the _historical _veracity of that statement.  Poetry is much, much older than written prose and waaaaaaay back was part of song, and oral story, part of the repertoire of wandering minstrels and troubadours.  From the beginning, poetry was meant to be spoken, recited, sung, and most of the early poetic 'devices' were probably mnemonic strategies to help deal with what might have been a LOT of materialassist memory--when your culture is pre-calligraphic, songs, stories, poems are all you have to provide tribal continuity.  P is visual (unless you're Victor Borge, a comedian who does a skit in which he supplies AUDITORY signals for all the standard P marks   very funny).  My overall point here is that rhythm and rhyme and pauses and inflections ARE the 'natural' forms of P in poetry.  The little marks on the page--which written prose NEEDS--were imposed on poetry for convenience after poetry 'was written down.  The little marks on the page are not 'natural" to poetry at all.

I don't use P at all in my poetry.  Except the da,med question mark.  Haven't figured that out yet.  Sorry---gotta go for now.
i


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## Bloggsworth (Sep 1, 2016)

Capitalising every line is misleading and implies thought-breaks which are not there. Every new capital implies that there was an invisible full-stop at the end of the previous line causing even more problems for the reader.


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## aj47 (Sep 1, 2016)

My tuppence.  It's a stylistic choice.  If you _do_ choose to use it, you need to use it deliberately, not haphazardly.


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## RHPeat (Sep 1, 2016)

Pips 

punctuation or not? Use it or don't use it in a poem, but be consistent throughout the poem. When not using punctuation long caesuras and line breaks become vital to the presentation to create the natural pauses in language. 

CAPs are questionable in un-punctuated verse. Take or leave it; it works both ways. Also certain types of wordings can cause real confusion and misunderstanding without punctuation. That must be kept in mind. It might be harder to write without some punctuation because of this fact. So presentation becomes important in line breaks, stanza breaks, and Caesuras, mid-line breaks to help the poem get its message across to the readers.

 Does the poem emote and/ or evoke its emotion well enough to the reader, becomes very important to its justification in existence. After all meaningless is meaningless even in the emotional states of poetry. 

In punctuated verse one has to realize that nothing has to be a complete sentence in poetry. Fragments are everywhere — in even some of the greatest works. And word structures of different kinds are out the door on their way to Mars when it comes to the mix in written language, due to writers like e.e. Comings and/or Charles Olson who has lines constructed in circles in some poems. Plus there are the concrete poems of the 60's & 80's that form actual images out of the words. 

What it all boils down to, is does the poem communicate its emotion to the reader or are they left out of the picture completely. The latter being a NO GO poem that has no real power to evoke a reader's emotional response. Communication on an emotional level is then NIL. It a nothing, nothing — ball game and you're wondering why you went to the ballpark in the rain. When nothing happens you might as well have been reading about the missing children's faces on the milk cartons at breakfast. There's a rare chance that something positive might actually come out of that. 

My opinion is that people that write completely for themselves should be writing diaries not poetry. Then they can read it all they want and not bother us poets that have real concerns about emoting and evoking feelings in others through the use of the poetic-craft to create real art. Diaries aren't art for the most part. 

So punctuate or not the point is; does the poem evoke and/or emote the reader in some way to have a revelation of some sort, a little spark of epiphany. . 


a poet friend
RH Peat


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## PiP (Sep 1, 2016)

clark said:


> Poetry is much, much older than written prose and waaaaaaay back was part of song, and oral story, part of the repertoire of wandering minstrels and troubadours.  From the beginning, poetry was meant to be spoken, recited, sung, and most of the early poetic 'devices' were probably mnemonic strategies to help deal with what might have been a LOT of materialassist memory--when your culture is pre-calligraphic, songs, stories, poems are all you have to provide tribal continuity.



So breath, or emphasizing or pausing after certain words was natural punctuation? 


> P is visual (unless you're Victor Borge, a comedian who does a skit in which he supplies AUDITORY signals for all the standard P marks   very funny).  My overall point here is that rhythm and rhyme and pauses and inflections ARE the 'natural' forms of P in poetry.  The little marks on the page--which written prose NEEDS--were imposed on poetry for convenience after poetry 'was written down.  The little marks on the page are not 'natural" to poetry at all.



No they are not natural, but because it is visual rather than aural how does the reader know when to pause without any pointers? I read a poem recently and without punctuation it was difficult to understand what the poet was actually trying to convey. If the same poem was aural then yes, the poet's voice would have added clarity as to the meaning.



> I don't use P at all in my poetry.



I have noticed  That's why I was keen for you to participate in this discussion. Thank you.


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## Firemajic (Sep 1, 2016)

Poetry is music, the music is within the rhythm, rhyme, meter and flow... one should hear the lyrical beat, and it is my personal opinion that punctuation stifles and inhibits the natural flow... like in a song, some words are held onto, extended... I want that in my poetry... JMO...


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## PiP (Sep 1, 2016)

Firemajic said:


> Poetry is music, the music is within the rhythm, rhyme, meter and flow... one should hear the lyrical beat, and it is my personal opinion that punctuation stifles and inhibits the natural flow... like in a song, some words are held onto, extended... I want that in my poetry... JMO...



Yes, I understand the rhythm and flow when writing my own poetry because I can hear the 'music'. I can't say I've ever noticed the lack of punctuation when reading your poetry so you must have a natural gift that connects the reader to your words. 

Ron, nailed it



RHPeat said:


> Pips
> 
> punctuation or not? Use it or don't use it in a poem, but be consistent throughout the poem. When not using punctuation long caesuras and line breaks become vital to the presentation to create the natural pauses in language.


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## Firemajic (Sep 1, 2016)

It was the schooner Hesperus,
that sailed the wint'ry sea;
and the skipper had taken his little daughter,
to bear him company.

H.W. Longfellow, The Wreck of the Hesperus

Longfellow used punctuation .... but, for me... it is not needed. When my grandmother read this to me, she extended the last word in each line...just a slight extension... and that made the sound so beautiful.... a period is a full STOP. My grandmother let each line and stanza melt into the next.... that is how I want my poems to sound...


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## Deleted member 59879 (Sep 1, 2016)

PIP it seems the tendency is to use it in moderation but not all poetry will allow that. In the end, it comes down to one's own aesthetic but, more importantly, the flow or rhythm of the words. Used sparingly, punctuation has greater effect.  I notice that people tend to use lots of semi colons when a comma or a line break would do.  In order not to use punctuation, it is probably handy to know what it does in prose, for example, so you can decide whether or not it is necessary.  But with free verse, short lines and well chosen words can obviate the need for most...


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## clark (Sep 2, 2016)

Firemajic--you and I should have lunch or something!  As poets on the subject of notation, we seem to be kindred spirits.  But I think you and I are talking about one thing--how poetry WORKS, sound is a huge factor, but PiP is crying out for a means on paper of notating poetry without P in such a way that it will be as CLEAR as one presented with conventional P.


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## PiP (Sep 2, 2016)

clark said:


> Firemajic--you and I should have lunch or something!  As poets on the subject of notation, we seem to be kindred spirits.  But I think you and I are talking about one thing--how poetry WORKS, sound is a huge factor, but PiP is crying out for a means on paper of notating poetry without P in such a way that it will be as CLEAR as one presented with conventional P.



That's correct, Clark. 

Although I've read many of Fire's poems I never noticed the lack of punctuation. The same with yours. Not everyone has the skill and sometimes this leaves the reader confused as to intent and meaning. The times I've read then reread a poem and ended with the thought: well, that was as clear as mud!



> Surely lack of punctuation makes a poem more challenging to read as it lacks clarity?



Tim hit on something when he shared his understanding of the em space which I found extremely useful. 

Now I just need to identify and study the works of poets that's not peppered with formal punctuation and see what devices they use to make the meaning clear. Any suggestions, please?


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## Firemajic (Sep 2, 2016)

clark said:


> Firemajic--you and I should have lunch or something!  As poets on the subject of notation, we seem to be kindred spirits.  But I think you and I are talking about one thing--how poetry WORKS, sound is a huge factor, but PiP is crying out for a means on paper of notating poetry without P in such a way that it will be as CLEAR as one presented with conventional P.


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## Ariel (Sep 2, 2016)

I disagree.  I always notice a lack of punctuation and find it more distracting than anything.  I spend most of the time reading the poem questioning why there's a lack of punctuation.  I find that it is generally not a well-used technique as there will always be at least an apostrophe or comma to draw attention to the lack of punctuation in the rest.


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## escorial (Sep 2, 2016)

I prefer the shopping list style were grammar is excluded because I like to write as i converse with myself....


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## Darkkin (Sep 2, 2016)

Some of the first poetry I encountered as a child were the works of Silverstein; his poems all carried the proper punctuation. Picture books, too, carry it.  From a very young age children know what the symbols mean and assimilate the knowledge into their reading patterns.  Yes, there will be natural pauses, but more often than not the thought process is a bit more complex.  Clauses, both dependent and non, fragments...These add layers to poetry.  Punctuation delineates them. 

Now consider poetry written _without_ or studded with haphazard punctuation, it is something that is very hard for me as a reader to process.  The piece feels unfinished, and even knowing it is a stylistic choice, I can't help feeling that if the writing is haphazard, why should I read it?  The thought feels too incomplete.  The reader _cannot_ delve into the writer's mind and know the author's intent.  Context is going to be lost.

Writing by ear is a gift, akin to playing an instrument by ear.  Not a lot of people can do it well, but for those who can...All I can say is wow.  I can't, which is why I always include punctuation.  Aesthetically, contextually for me as a writer, a reader, it is a requisite element.

More than a decade ago, the James Fry book _A Million Little Pieces_ took American readers by storm.  A quick glance at the content left me, as a reader, utterly appalled.  No proper punctuation or even basic capitalization.  More than a hundred and fifty pages of run on waffle.  _My Friend Leonard_, the same story.  With the hugely popular Ellen Hopkins books it is the same story.  No punctuation.  All I can wonder is _why?_

It might be a stylistic choice, but consider this:  By using punctuation we familiarize ourselves with it, in both form and function.  The reader and the writer benefiting from a greater and more cohesive understanding of content.  By advocating a lack or total abstention from punctuation we are taking away a chance to further our understanding of this critical, if sometimes pestilent, element.  The axiom: Use it or lose it, comes to mind.

There is power in punctuation, nuances that would otherwise be lost.  I learned how to read and write from the ground up.  I learned to read music and play the piano the same way.  It took time, but layer by layer the knowledge accumulated.  Writing, reading, the ability to play an instrument...These are skills that stay with you for life.  Hone them, don't shy away just because it seems hard.

Does my viewpoint make me an insufferable, snotty know-it-all?  Probably, but given the fact that I'm not possessed of the by the ear genius, I do all right with the basic building blocks I have.


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## Firemajic (Sep 2, 2016)

That is an intriguing POV, DarKKin... I do not agree with you at all... But I do respect your POV...


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## Firemajic (Sep 2, 2016)

Darkkin said:


> ****, I can't help feeling that if a writer doesn't bother with punctuation, why should I bother to read it***?  ***The thought is incomplete.**  The reader _cannot_ delve into the writer's mind and know the author's intent.  ***Context is going to be lost.**
> 
> 
> 
> ...




These comments are the points I disagree with...

Not a snob, DarKKin...


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## Darkkin (Sep 2, 2016)

Punctuation and things like _italics_ and fragments are akin the visual cues of a person's face, hands, and tonal infliction when they speak.  They add texture and nuance.  Think about what you do when someone drones in a monotone.  You zone out, and what about the speaker who is animated and involved?  You can't help but watch and listen.  Consider conversations you've had with hand talkers, we all know at least one.

Juxtapose the auditory example with a written medium, such as these words.  This is what happens when we read; we _see_ the words before we hear them in our heads.  This is what punctuation does.  It lends context to the words.  Punctuation functions as the nonverbal element in written communication and statistically, almost 80% of communication is nonverbal.

This is what I don't understand is _why_ leave it off?


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## Firemajic (Sep 2, 2016)

Darkkin said:


> Punctuation and things like _italics_ and fragments are akin the visual cues of a person's face, hands, and tonal infliction when they speak.  They add texture and nuance.  Think about what you do when someone drones in a monotone.  You zone out, and what about the speaker who is animated and involved?  You can't help but watch and listen.
> 
> ?





I never thought of it like that.... Fabulous.... still, I don't think it is necessary... My grandmother read poetry to me, so I was not aware of punctuation....maybe that is why I don't think it necessary....


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## Ariel (Sep 2, 2016)

Perhaps. You and Clark are correct that poetry has a musical beginning and an aural rather than visual background, however, I find that more and more our language is written and visual in order to convey ideas. As a visual, written medium then, punctuation helps to convey ideas in poetry better than relying on auditory cues.


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## Firemajic (Sep 2, 2016)

Right... and I can appreciate that POV... and now that I think about all of this, I remember that I had never read poetry, myself, before writing it... my grandmother ALWAYS read it to me... so I wrote poetry the way SHE read it.. the way I heard it...


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## midnightpoet (Sep 2, 2016)

Sometimes I use punctuation, sometimes I don't - but to each his/her own.  God forbid we all have the same style, or even look at poetry in the same way - but clarity is always important, but at the same time so is a little mystery.:grin:

Above all, let us not be boring!


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## clark (Sep 2, 2016)

Olson and Creeley, especially, worked on non-systems on notation-on-the page to find a more HONEST way to 'punctuate' poetry-on-the-page.  I think they were insisting that the published poem on the page should be seen, in the current era, only as a stepping stone back to the true resonance of poetry as sound.  Poetry started out that way but since Caxton's moving press in the mid-15th c. to now (about 430 years) we have been a print-bound society.  No more.  Soon probably 80% of the people on planet Earth will have cell phones with voice recognition.  Computers ready work on voice recognition. Soon keyboards may disappear and we will in reality return to the Voice, to sound in poetry.


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## midnightpoet (Sep 2, 2016)

I'll admit to being old-fashioned in some things, and at my age I'm skeptical of predictions of demise of the printed page, and frankly hope it doesn't go away completely.  However, I've heard Beowulf orally and there was something magic about the experience.


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## RHPeat (Sep 3, 2016)

Clark

That formatting on the page that Olson and Creeley experimented with definitely moved away form the linier concept of the written language. I think it moved more directly to the concept of an encompassing thought process. That the space on the page became just as important as connotations of the words in poetry as metaphor and suggestion. They might have been focused on sound, but their process also caused the written language to become more visual as well instead of the maintaining a stream of words. It allowed more imaging to take place in the spacial concept of the page's format to carry as much meaning as the words themselves. That the space in the poem became suggestive in many different ways. Duncan might have been part of the move as well as the beat poets. 

I also think e.e. Cumings played with this concept as well. But he even forced punctuation itself into imaging; that the punctuation became part of the context of the poem; it became part of the actual images in the poem by grouping words with punctuation as symbols. Punctuation became metaphorical in his hands. 

Just some other thought there on sound, open space, and punctuation as tools in poetry connected to the concrete part of images in poetry. 

a poet friend
RH Peat


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## midnightpoet (Sep 3, 2016)

Interesting discussion, guys.  I do surmise that pauses and stops have probably been around since paleolithic hunters told stories of the hunt around campfires.  Pauses for emphasis are very useful in dramatic story-telling, poetry or prose.  Anyway, I doubt they are going to go away completely, even used on flimsy panes of melted sand. :wink:


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## Gumby (Sep 3, 2016)

I have a love/hate relationship with punctuation. I have read some poems in which the lack of traditional punctuation definitely ruined the flow for me, as I had to pause and consider how they intended it to be understood. I have also read some poems in which the punctuation itself, interrupted the flow for me, actually ruined the experience.

I think that longer poems are more likely to benefit from punctuation, but there is no doubt that a skilled or naturally gifted poet can use poetic devices in such a way that they function the same way traditional punctuation would.

When you visually look at a poem, sometimes the punctuation can make it look cluttered or boxed in and that makes you 'feel' differently. Like you are crowded or caged.  Adding white space or removing punctuation can actually make you feel as if you can 'breathe' in the poem. 

I guess it is really like music in that each element works together to create the whole and if one 'note' is off, it can sour the whole song.


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## Darkkin (Sep 3, 2016)

Just thinking about the Strangeways without punctuation...:shock:   Talk about a heaving maelstrom of chaos.  Duck and cover.  ;-)


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## clark (Sep 3, 2016)

PiP -- philosophically, functionally, and historically--this subject has limited appeal.  I've pretty much said what I have to say about the _field_ if you will of punctuation in poetry.  Olson in his famous (and difficult to read) essay, _Projective Verse _, implicitly offers insights as he tries to explain breath-units in poetry and how best to _notate _them on the page.  I'm totally sympathetic, PiP, that you'd like some solid answers to this question, but I don't see even the possibility of normative standards fo punctuation in contemporary poetry.  And \i disagree with many of the points Mr. Sanson makes, esp. his contention that punctuation performs much the same function in poetry and prose.

If it is true that in free verse every poet reinvents form with every new poem, it follows that punctuation--certainly a part of traditional form--will also come under close scrutiny, poem by poem.  It may seem like I'm dancing around the topic, just adding to your frustration.  I guess I'm answering the question by not answering it, because I don't think it is the question to ask.  It's a question arising from the practices and expectations of the past.  We need a new approach to notation in contemporary poetry.  I'd like to think I work on that a little, with each poem I write, because the commitment to NOT punctuate in the conventional way certainly gets me (and my poor reader) into some jams!--but it also puts me in closer touch with the rhythm and feel of words and groupings of words.....and that is getting quite exciting.


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## PiP (Sep 3, 2016)

clark said:


> I'm totally sympathetic, PiP, that you'd like some solid answers to this question, but I don't see even the possibility of normative standards fo punctuation in contemporary poetry.  And \i disagree with many of the points Mr. Sanson makes, esp. his contention that punctuation performs much the same function in poetry and prose.



Clark, by reading the various replies in this discussion I realise there are are no 'solid' answers and it is a matter of personal style. That's why I personally find discussions such as these invaluable because they open up the mind to new ideas (or not) as you spend hours down the internet rabbit hole researching the works of different poets and studying/reading poems in a different light.



> If it is true that in free verse every poet reinvents form with every new poem, it follows that punctuation--certainly a part of traditional form--will also come under close scrutiny, poem by poem.  It may seem like I'm dancing around the topic, just adding to your frustration.



No you are not dancing around the topic. 




> I guess I'm answering the question by not answering it, because I don't think it is the question to ask.  It's a question arising from the practices and expectations of the past.



True



> We need a new approach to notation in contemporary poetry.  I'd like to think I work on that a little, with each poem I write, because the commitment to NOT punctuate in the conventional way certainly gets me (and my poor reader) into some jams!--*but it also puts me in closer touch with the rhythm and feel of words and groupings of words.....and that is getting quite exciting.*



There you go! In an around about way you have answered my question. 

When writing poetry it is also important to keep an open mind and try new ideas to find your own style. 

_As an aside and completely off-topic: for me the true definition of frustration is asking Mr Google why the leaves on your tomato plants are turning yellow

_[FONT=&Verdana]_Response: “What do yellowing leaves on tomato plants suggest?” Truth be known, tomato plants leaves turn yellow for many different reasons. _

[/FONT]Onwards.


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## Darkkin (Sep 18, 2016)

As with all things, writing has trends.  With poetry one of the reigning styles is an abeyance of punctuation.  It is a dearth that is lending to the decay of language.  Yes, there is power in simplicity, but the problem is twofold.  By simplifying, we limit reasoning, the potential for questions and curiosity.  Oversimplify and people accept it without question.  It just is.  No one looks for the _why_.  It's easy, why make it hard?  It is a crippling languor.  I know it comes down to style and the individual, but punctuation matters.  Truly, it does.  Consider.

e.g.

Without punctuation:

tenebrous wold that tangled expanse an illusive velvet fold held a secret another tale told
the tale those cousins the hyenas of tenebrous wold a pack of predators crass and brazen
an aberrant of scavenging throngs noble hyenas who were bold as brass with hearts of gold

vs.

With punctuation:

Tenebrous Wold that tangled expanse, an illusive velvet fold, held a secret, another tale told,
the tale, those cousins, the Hyenas of Tenebrous Wold, a pack of predators, crass and brazen.
An aberrant of scavenging throngs, noble hyenas who were bold as brass with hearts of gold.

To hear it spoke in one thing, to read it, is another.  When spoken the punctuation is articulated as a pause, places and characters are implied by tone.  But different senses are being inundated, namely the auditory senses.  The visual construct is entirely absent.  The reading process, suspended as we listen.

Punctuation is the visual equivalent of the spoken word.


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## PiP (Sep 18, 2016)

> Without punctuation:
> 
> tenebrous wold that tangled expanse an illusive velvet fold held a secret another tale told
> the tale those cousins the hyenas of tenebrous wold a pack of predators crass and brazen
> an aberrant of scavenging throngs noble hyenas who were bold as brass with hearts of gold



But if I were not using punctuation I would not write it as such.

Lack of punctuation, in my opinion, only lends itself to certain styles of poetry. It's not a one size fits all.


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## Firemajic (Sep 18, 2016)

PiP said:


> But if I were not using punctuation I would not write it as such.
> 
> Lack of punctuation, in my opinion, only lends itself to certain styles of poetry. It's not a one size fits all.






EXACTLY.... YOUR style of writing NEEDS punctuation, maybe .... although ... I will admit that I don't pay any attention to where you did or did not place a comma... I read poetry,  paying attention to the rhythm I hear in MY head... there ARE natural pauses when the rhythm and rhyme come together... and when the line breaks are used with skill... I look at punctuation as someone treating me like I don't know HOW to read poetry...   but I have always hated rules, and hate being told what to do... hahaaa, of course, that has caused me a lot of problems...


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## EmmaSohan (Sep 18, 2016)

Now that I have read them both, I prefer the first line without the punctuation. Guessing why -- _held _is the verb, and the punctuation obscures that, but the meaning shows that. Did you have a different example?

Really, poets aren't using punctuation?


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## Ariel (Sep 19, 2016)

Depends on the poem/poet, Emma.


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## PiP (Sep 22, 2016)

EmmaSohan said:


> Really, poets aren't using punctuation?



No, it really depends on style. At times excessive punctuation can actually detract from the poem in my opinion. I am not referring to capitalising certain words or the use of ? I am referring to , : ; etc.


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## RHPeat (Sep 22, 2016)

*With or without punctuation*. 

The thing is to be consistent in the single poem, otherwise it looks like a moron wrote the poem. Just remember to convey meaning, interpretation of emotion and suggest nuances within the poem punctuation can be used, or line breaks along with stanza breaks can be used. Otherwise you might create a run on in your intent. So without punctuation phrasing of the lines becomes really important. Otherwise the the rhetoric can confuse as much as help the poem without punctuation. 

For example a period or semicolon shows where a thought ends or that something else is attached to that thought. But line breaks can do the same thing, but it becomes more interpretive due to how the language in the poem used. So exact phrasing of the lines becomes far more important when not using punctuation. Personally I write poems both ways. I don't find punctuation intrusive at all or line breaks for that matter. It is more about what the poem calls for in its presentation. A narrative poem is more apt to be punctuated for example, because it is story line in structure. But this doesn't always hold true. 

The big thing to realize is that without punctuation the phrasing of the poem becomes far more critical for complete understanding about what is being written and how the statements are connected in the poem's line of thought/ progression and rhythm. 

a poet friend
RH Peat


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## EmmaSohan (Sep 22, 2016)

I think, when I read a poem, I don't notice punctuation at the end of a line. Even though I am very sensitive to punctuation in normal prose.

I would notice a comma in the middle of a line, but my perception is dominated by the lines and starting a new line.

Yeah, I never noticed, but when I write "poetry", I mostly leave out the punctuation. I didn't know that. Fascinating! Newline and tabbing pretty much handles the punctuation.

Thanks.


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## RHPeat (Sep 22, 2016)

Emma

Also in poetry you'll find sentence fragments with a period when punctuation is used. And by the best poets I might add. 

Also listings and apostrophes (phrases that repeat meaning in different words) can be use without punctuation by just using line breaks. 

So the reader has to insert an implied voice change when reading silently. This why careful wording helps your intent in the poem when writing with or without punctuation. 

a poet friend
RH Peat


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