# SWAT, SRU, Snipers... etc.



## bravery101

I'm in the process of researching some information on strategic units (doesn't really matter with what their called) and their procedure, behavior, and training within the unit itself. Also, I'm obviously trying to pinpoints with cities have larger units and what they're called. I'm also specifically playing with the idea of a sniper. Guns that they use, the training they receive, and the post-shot procedure.

Basically, I'm just hoping that if any of you guys have some previous research or knowledge at all on the field if you could give me a quick knowledge dump to help me with this. Thanks guys!


----------



## Guy Faukes

^ Ditto. I've basically only stolen basic ideas like rank and general tactics from the SAS from Youtube


----------



## bravery101

Guy Faukes said:


> ^ Ditto. I've basically only stolen basic ideas like rank and general tactics from the SAS from Youtube



Glad to find someone else with the same interests! I feel like it's a really exciting topic, and definitely not utilized often. Hope it goes well for you!


----------



## Guy Faukes

bravery101 said:


> Glad to find someone else with the same interests! I feel like it's a really exciting topic, and definitely not utilized often. Hope it goes well for you!



It is! It's interesting what goes into planning and staging a modern assault given the nature of modern technology and weapons. The SAS has been at the forefront of developing urban assaults and counter terrorism and have essentially "written the rule book", so their website and documentaries can be pretty useful. 

For a more recent implication with the rise of SWAT/SRUs, here's a video you might want to see of the implication of police militarization due to the War against Drugs in certain States. 

[video=youtube;-ziLjOPCQwg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ziLjOPCQwg[/video]


----------



## bravery101

Guy Faukes said:


> It is! It's interesting what goes into planning and staging a modern assault given the nature of modern technology and weapons. The SAS has been at the forefront of developing urban assaults and counter terrorism and have essentially "written the rule book", so their website and documentaries can be pretty useful.
> 
> For a more recent implication with the rise of SWAT/SRUs, here's a video you might want to see of the implication of police militarization due to the War against Drugs in certain States.



I'll definitely watch it! Most likely later tonight or some time tomorrow, since, sadly, I have a test tomorrow for _geography_. But, hey, it'll give me something to look forward to!

I wasn't aware that the SAS played such a large role in all of this. I'll have to start looking into that to get a better sense of how to works. I'm currently browsing through specific units based on the setting I'm going for, so that I can get region-specific information. I can't seem to decide between a local or a state unit yet, but hopefully I'll nail it down soon!


----------



## bravery101

Just found this site: http://www.libertyreferences.com/lapd-swat.shtml

Good info. Most of it probably applies to SWAT overall, not just the LAPD SWAT. Goes down to what they wear, what they shoot, procedures and all. Just in case anyone else wanted to use it!


----------



## Guy Faukes

I can see how much you like _geography_, haha. I think the SAS was one of the first to refine techniques in urban combat which has been adopted throughout the world, though I might be mistaken. 

In terms of weaponry, I wonder if they still use MP5s and Springfields. MP5's are reliable and have good stopping power, but I know a lot of newer, compact models of submachine guns with more stopping power have been designed.


----------



## Plasticweld

I am a long range shooter, "shots over a 1000 yards." If you need any technical info regarding rifles, ammunition, ballistics, procedures I can help you with this type of information. 


I have often told people that when you live in a city you play golf, it involves estimating, range, wind and ball drop.  When you live in the country like I do, you shoot woodchucks and learn all about estimating range, wind and bullet drop, kind of like golf for rednecks


One of my golf clubs


----------



## bravery101

Guy Faukes said:


> I can see how much you like _geography_, haha. I think the SAS was one of the first to refine techniques in urban combat which has been adopted throughout the world, though I might be mistaken.
> 
> In terms of weaponry, I wonder if they still use MP5s and Springfields. MP5's are reliable and have good stopping power, but I know a lot of newer, compact models of submachine guns with more stopping power have been designed.



I'm just taking the geography class so that I can transfer it to a university and never have to take science again... Ugh. Science is often my downfall...

Anyway, looking at the link I posted specifically about the LAPD SWAT, they use MP5s, MP5SDs, M4A1 Carbines, and etc. Lots of choices 



Plasticweld said:


> I am a long range shooter, "shots over a 1000 yards." If you need any technical info regarding rifles, ammunition, ballistics, procedures I can help you with this type of information.
> 
> 
> I have often told people that when you live in a city you play golf, it involves estimating, range, wind and ball drop.  When you live in the country like I do, you shoot woodchucks and learn all about estimating range, wind and bullet drop, kind of like golf for rednecks



Love the description there! And nice looking golf club 

Alright, so for a broad question, what factors would one take into account for long-range shooting? Wind, I'm sure, and etc. Not much of a shooter, so this is beyond me!

One more question: How would you prepare to shoot? Like, how would you support the weapon, and etc. Procedures, basically!

Also, I like your signature. Very accurate!


----------



## Guy Faukes

bravery101 said:


> I'm just taking the geography class so that I can transfer it to a university and never have to take science again... Ugh. Science is often my downfall...
> 
> Anyway, looking at the link I posted specifically about the LAPD SWAT, they use MP5s, MP5SDs, M4A1 Carbines, and etc. Lots of choices



Ahh, yes, some people can't science. We had "science for non-science" student courses at my uni. I dunno, science makes sense to me, and I didn't find the other disciplines to be impossible. 

Ehh, the MP5SD is just a variant and the M4A1 has been around since 1994.  Cornershot guns are apparently the new fad.

Have you read about raids gone wrong? The Waco siege is an excellent example of how the power of organized raids depend on surprise and planning to be effective. Take those away and it devolves into a (well-equipped) firefight.
*
Plasticweld* - Golf for rednecks, LOL. I'm guessing yelling "FORE!" doesn't help anyone when you play, haha. 
Do you use different rounds when you shoot, and why?


----------



## bravery101

Guy Faukes said:


> Ahh, yes, some people can't science. We had "science for non-science" student courses at my uni. I dunno, science makes sense to me, and I didn't find the other disciplines to be impossible.


Yes, I certainly cannot science. However, I just realized that my professor has the questions to all tests (except the final) posted on his webpage... I didn't do so well on the last two tests, and now I know why... To be fair though, they were kinda hidden. 

I'm good at every subject accept science. Well, I'm decent at physics. I usually do better when I'm dealing with things that I see as having a visible real-life application for the average person. And, well, most sciences aren't super applicable for everyone. Definitely not getting a science degree of any sort, though. I'll leave those to the future chemists and nurses...



> Ehh, the MP5SD is just a variant and the M4A1 has been around since 1994.  Cornershot guns are apparently the new fad.



I don't know too much about guns, so I'll need to improve my knowledge. No one in my family even owns a gun, so I don't have any experience 



> Have you read about raids gone wrong? The Waco siege is an excellent example of how the power of organized raids depend on surprise and planning to be effective. Take those away and it devolves into a (well-equipped) firefight.



I keep up with current events, so I've certainly heard of some raids gone wrong. Really sad stories when they happen. The process and planning is stunningly in depth. It's an intriguing topic!


----------



## Morkonan

bravery101 said:


> ...Basically, I'm just hoping that if any of you guys have some previous research or knowledge at all on the field if you could give me a quick knowledge dump to help me with this. Thanks guys!



If you're really serious and if your local police department has its own unit or works cooperatively with a neighboring one that does, you can arrange for some one-on-one Q&A with someone. Contact the Public Affairs or Public Relations office of your local police department.

Plus, if you're writing seriously for publication, you can write off a portion of travel and some other expenses due to "research." Check with your accountant, though.


----------



## bravery101

Morkonan said:


> If you're really serious and if your local police department has its own unit or works cooperatively with a neighboring one that does, you can arrange for some one-on-one Q&A with someone. Contact the Public Affairs or Public Relations office of your local police department.
> 
> Plus, if you're writing seriously for publication, you can write off a portion of travel and some other expenses due to "research." Check with your accountant, though.



I might very well pursue something like this, but not now. I'm not entirely sure what the entire story will entail just yet, so my plan is to do my research now and write according to that. Then, when I'm finished, I'll want to double-check my facts with someone with experience in the field itself. As for right now, though, it'd be a waste of time. I'd get my answers I have now, but more will come later. I do get what your saying though, and I do hope to do just that when I get to that point.

As for the publication aspect: I'd love to see the story published. However, it becomes a bit more complicated because I'm not currently writing this as a novel. I'm working on a screenplay with it right now, and "publication" in that realm mainly means someone buying the script from you, so the process is much more wishy-washy. I may end up using the script as a skeleton for a novel, but I might not. I'd love to be able to write in travel and research expenses, but we'll see!


----------



## Plasticweld

Pardon me if I answer your question with just little too much enthusiasm, not often I get to share stuff about something I am this passionate about. 

If you go back and look at the picture it will show you some of the tools every sharp shooter would use.  The binoculars are for looking at the whole picture, you cannot see enough through the 20 power Nikon scope to gain perspective, while the magnification is great, your sight picture is rather small so you need to see a large enough of the area to know what you are dealing with.  The binoculars are also Nikon 8 power which gives me a good field of vison.  Next to the binoculars is my Nikon 1000 yard laser range finder, one of the most important tools in long range shooting. 

The rifle is supported in two ways, one is the bi pod on the end of the rifle, the other is the green sand bag that you see tucked in under the trigger.  I shoot off of a portable shooting table that has a wind gage that attaches to it. 

The rifle also has a sling which I use if shooting in the prone, off hand or sitting position.  

If you notice on the stock of the rifle is my range card, this card has my zero, which is set at 300 yards. This is a standard Zero for this round, 6 mm which is a .308 necked down.  This card takes into consideration a couple of things that are average where I shoot, all of which effect bullet drop. The average elevation here is 1500 feet about sea level. That is a factor. I also used an average temperature   of 70 degrees which is kind of average for summer time shooting for me in the evenings when I hunt.  The next info that you would have to know for range card is the velocity of the round you are shooting and the ballistic coefficient of the particular bullet.  I am shoot and 87 grain match tip bullet at 3,400 feet per second with a BC of 4.  Once I know those three things I can then factor in flight time of the bullet and the effect of the wind. My range card uses a 10mph wind as a example out to 650 yards in 10 yard increments.  The card also has the bullet drop for every ten yards to the same 650 yards. The yardage starts at 300 as we do not shoot at anything this closer, it would be cheating

I will walk you through a fictional shot to give you an idea of how much is involved in making a long range shot so you have some of the terminology and procedure down correctly. 

I shoot with a partner, which is pretty standard, my partner is now 75 years old.  He also would be the stereotypical long range shooter by his personality.  He extremely precise in everything he does.  Has an abundance of patience and is a math geek, {retired engineer” in this case.    Long range shooting for the most part is a math problem, which why the military has a high dropout rate at their ranger schools;  kind of like looking for someone who can write poetry on the football team.  The military still used the term Scout Sniper and observation is the key, to all kinds of long range shooting

Carl and I have our table set up, we have picked a spot that lets us see the largest expanse of the country side. We are on top of the hill, there is a slight breeze blowing at about 10 mph at a 45 degree angle, it is warm and the breeze ebbs and flows up and down.  After spending a few minutes glassing the field we spot a wood chuck down in the corner of the field. He is in a small draw which will speed up the wind, this is called the process of doping the wind, looking at the landscape and figuring out how the shape will change the wind.  We cannot get an exact yardage with our laser range finders because they need a reflective surface to give us and accurate reading.  We then proceed to find things, rocks, trees and thing that will send back the beam of the range finder. It is quite common to measure a couple of different things, do tri-angulation to get a good read on a distance.  After some time estimating the  distance we agree on 570 yards. We also have doped the wind to agree that it is a little over 10 mph coming in at a little more than a 54 degree angle.  The first thing I do is set my scope for the correct yardage. It is zeroed at 300 which means that scope can be either turned up or down with the elevation knob on the top of the scope, this is measured in 1/8 minute clicks, which means that on click at a 100 yards moves the cross hairs an 1/8 inch.  My range card has the bullet drop which is 18 inches, it also has the number of clicks needed to bring my cross hairs up so that the rifle shoots now dead on at 570, yards.  I am shooting down hill, which means that my bullet will impact a little higher than normal because of the effect of gravity. I take this into account.  Next is the wind, I have to do the math, because the range card is broken down to a direct wind at a 90 degree angle, have to take the figure on the card and cut it almost in half, the card shows a 10 mph wind at 570 yards moves the bullet 16 inches, I move the windage  knob not quite half of the needed about to account for the angle of the wind. 

I settle down to shoot, slowing my breathing down, Carl watches the wind and the wood chuck, the sand bag that was in the case is under the rear of the stock, I raise and lower  the sights of the rifle by squeezing the bag, I do the best I can to not touch the rifle. It is on it bipod and can be easily tipped. I am sitting in a small folding chair.  As the observer Carl will tell me when the wind is not doing anything funny. He will also watch to see where the bullet impacts. If I am wrong about the calculations he can then tell me how to correct, distance might have been wrong, wind faster or slower.  At this distance all the wood chuck sees is a puff of dirt when the bullet hits, second shots are common.  I missed it is now Carl’s turn to shoot. 

Hope this helps…Bob

I shoot only one bullet, the range card is set based on it performs. The information would be useless otherwise.  

It takes many hours on the range to develop a card and changing loads or bullets is like changing wife’s not that it doesn’t happen, but it is never done casually


----------



## bravery101

*Plasticweld:* That was really descriptive, but perfect for what I needed! It really helps bring into perspective what it really takes to make that shot. I like how you mentioned how involved math really way in all of this - I'm sure that will become part of my writing. Also, thanks for the written out example of how it would all flow. For someone who really doesn't shoot, that was extremely helpful! Thanks a lot


----------



## Guy Faukes

bravery101 said:


> I don't know too much about guns, so I'll need to improve my knowledge. No one in my family even owns a gun, so I don't have any experience



Wait, wait, wait, you live in Texas and you don't have a gun? Isn't one handed to you with your birth certificate? I jest, I jest, haha. 



bravery101 said:


> I keep up with current events, so I've certainly heard of some raids gone wrong. Really sad stories when they happen. The process and planning is stunningly in depth. It's an intriguing topic!



You should check out the Waco siege. It's where the ATF attempted to raid the community even though the occupants hunkered down after knew they were coming. What resulted was a 51 day standoff that left dozens injured or dead. You can see footage of ATF team breech a window. The first two go in, then bullets rip through the window and wall, the third officer covering their back decides to poke his head in and gets shot. It looked like a total gong show. 
*
Plasticweld*- I know you don't shot across several kilometers but do have you ever taken the "Coriolis effect" into consideration when shooting?


----------



## Plasticweld

Guy at the 1000 yard distances that is not a factor, the only problem I have dealt with on a very sporadic interval is heat mirage.  The same effect that you see on  a hot day when looking down a long rod, those heat waves also distort your perception of where you are actually looking.  I have not done enough to be able to gage it as it does not happen that often here in the  north east over a grass field.  


I also thought it odd that someone from Texas did not own a gun, my kids where both given guns when they turned 11 years old.  Family tradition here is that for Thanksgiving when we gather we always shoot as a family


----------



## Guy Faukes

Plasticweld said:


> Guy at the 1000 yard distances that is not a factor, the only problem I have dealt with on a very sporadic interval is heat mirage.  The same effect that you see on  a hot day when looking down a long rod, those heat waves also distort your perception of where you are actually looking.  I have not done enough to be able to gage it as it does not happen that often here in the  north east over a grass field.



The Coriolis effect on a bullet never made sense to me. If it's because of the Earth's rotation, than shouldn't the bullet have the same inertia as the Earth itself and so, shouldn't it still travel "straight" to a target? Or is it because of the curvature of the Earth over a large distance?




Plasticweld said:


> I also thought it odd that someone from Texas did not own a gun, my kids where both given guns when they turned 11 years old.  Family tradition here is that for Thanksgiving when we gather we always shoot as a family



That's why I get it when people say they enjoy the "gun culture" in America and not think of it as a society that just idolizes weapons. Shooting can be a family event, much like fishing or golfing. You share a common goal and it's thrilling.


----------



## bravery101

Sorry I haven't replied in a while, guys. Life got in the way!



Guy Faukes said:


> Wait, wait, wait, you live in Texas and you don't have a gun? Isn't one handed to you with your birth certificate? I jest, I jest, haha.



Amazingly, not all people in Texas own guns! :icon_cheesygrin: I think the most I've ever shot was a paint ball gun.



> You should check out the Waco siege. It's where the ATF attempted to raid the community even though the occupants hunkered down after knew they were coming. What resulted was a 51 day standoff that left dozens injured or dead. You can see footage of ATF team breech a window. The first two go in, then bullets rip through the window and wall, the third officer covering their back decides to poke his head in and gets shot. It looked like a total gong show.



I've seen some stuff from that one. I've been to Waco, after all! It's a crazy story. I am tempted not to research more into it, since it'd be a good to understand for this topic.


Guy Faukes said:


> The Coriolis effect on a bullet never made sense to me. If it's because of the Earth's rotation, than shouldn't the bullet have the same inertia as the Earth itself and so, shouldn't it still travel "straight" to a target? Or is it because of the curvature of the Earth over a large distance?



I looked into this a little. It makes sense to me as a general idea, but is difficult to imagine and think about... Either way, I think it has to do with the curvature of the earth over a large distance. At least, that's how I visualize it!



> That's why I get it when people say they enjoy the "gun culture" in America and not think of it as a society that just idolizes weapons. Shooting can be a family event, much like fishing or golfing. You share a common goal and it's thrilling.



I'm not opposed to "gun culture" of America. I do hate it when I read a story of accidental shootings, or "in the moment" killings. I personally would say to make sure to keep the gun under lock and key, avoid extremely easy access by a child or etc. They're dangerous, but so are cars and we still drive, right? just my take on it.


----------



## egpenny

Try the internet. put in snipers, SWAT, sniper rifles and read what's there. There is a lot of info. out there. 
I had a sniper (Marine, retired, SWAT retired, not willingly) in a couple of my books and found info online and by reading books written by snipers. 
I'd recommend the book SHOOTER, by Gunnery Sgt. Jack Coughlin, USMC.  
Another place to go...to your local gun range, find out when and if there are long range matches and go to one, talk to the shooters. 
My husband was a long range shooter (I stuck with silhouettes with handguns, rifles for long range were too heavy for me) 
We were always happy to talk to people who wanted information.

We were both competition shooter for 10 years; silhouettes, long range, bench rest, DCM, mountain man, Civil War Skirmish Assoc. You name it, we shot it.


----------

