# Where do I begin?



## Primrose (Jul 20, 2012)

I think this is in the right place, if it's not it can be moved and I won't be offended. 

I think I want the assistance of a literary agent. I also plan to ask some former professors and a family friend who have published about this, but I was wondering if anyone here could provide me some insight, mainly on these points:

- Do you think it works more in an author's favor to have an agent or is it just one extra hassle?
- How does one even begin to obtain said literary agent?
- Are there any solid, tried and true resources for finding agents? It's been a while since I've familiarized myself with Writer's Market (I have a 2008 copy somewhere in this mess) and I can't remember if they list agents.

At this point, my series is just in its baby stages of development, so it's not pressing to find an agent now (or is it?), but I'm just trying to figure out where to start when I do decide to take that step.


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## Marige (Jul 20, 2012)

Hmmm... again, we meet.  I'm not stalking, promise.

But I do think I can answer some of your questions.  

First, understand what an agent is and is not.  An agent is not someone who will help you with your writing.  An agent is strictly there to sell your work.  They are supposed to help you bypass the slush piles and get your work in front of an editor who makes decisions.  As this implies, having an agent does not guarantee that your work will sell, only that it will be considered by a higher level.  Decent agents will not take on clients unless they know they can sell their work.

Because of this, the agent has evolved into being the first step in getting published.  They are not, however, the only means and, in recent times, many agents seem to expect writers to do most of their own selling... google agents if you want to see what I mean.  Many will require that the writer already have a marketing plan in place.  My question to them is, "_so, what am I paying you for?_"  Agents typically receive 20% of your sales-- that's a chunk of change for doing nothing.  Be careful.  There are many sharks that will make a million promises.

Which brings us to the most important point.  There are good agents and not so good agents.  Theoretically, an agent should know the editors of at least a few publishers... their value is in being able to connect you directly with those publishers, bypass the slush piles and lessor editors (the ones that only approve a ms. so it can go to a senior editor, who actually decides on publishing).  Realistically, most agents are connected in some way with one or two publishers and there are some agents that simply send your work to the publishers, i.e., into the slush piles, just as you can do.  

You *can and should* start looking for an agent now... that's one of the huge mistakes most writers make.  That is, they wait until they have finished a manuscript before looking for an agent.  Bad move.  On the business side of writing, you should never write anything unless you already have a buyer for it.  

In the case of a novel, what you should do is write a _Book Proposal_.  This consists of a synopsis, a chapter-by-chapter outline, plus the first three chapters.  Truth is, most agents (and, for that matter, most publishers) only look at the first few pages unless they like what they see-- really like it.  If they really like it, they'll read the first three chapters.  So writing or sending any more is both unnecessary and shows your lack of professionalism.  Also, the cover letter should include the synopsis, plus whatever experience/background in your life that inspired you, as well as why you feel this story will be popular.  

You're right.  The Writer's Market is the best resource for agent listings.  They have an online version, which is much more practical, as it is updated regularly.  It's $6 a month to join (that's $72 a year) but the annual subscription is only $40.00.  That's at least as much as the book, but is more up-to-date.

I hope that's been of some use.  

Cheers!

Marige


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## Primrose (Jul 20, 2012)

(Marige, you may stalk me as long as you do not hunt me down and kill me XD)

Thank you! So much wonderful insight and such helpful information too.

And now for my next question: does anyone who has experience working with agents want to share an experience? Gimme the good, the bad and the ugly. Anything that can go wrong, may go wrong and even successes interest me. Like I said, I'll be seeking some council with a few professors and friends of mine who have experience with this stuff. And I clearly need to set my nose to the grindstone on the polished up direction of this story! A bit more planning probably couldn't hurt me at this point.

One last inquiry: 

If agents take 20% of the profit, how much do publishers take and what's left over for the writer?


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## Marige (Jul 20, 2012)

Well, I only have one, not so great experience with an agent.  She was not one of the better ones... basically, she was the kind who charged me for postage, and just sent my book to the slush pile.  Heck, I could have done that!  

No... agents take 20% of whatever you make, not 20% of the profit.  Theoretically, that is the second job of the agent: to negotiate as much money for you (and them) as possible.  They should therefore know what the going rates are and how to negotiate.  Bear in mind than an unpublished writer will not get top dollar.  But with a good agent, you should get more than may otherwise get alone.  

See... still stalking.  (Not really... and I won't hunt you down, promise.  Not today, anyway. )

M


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## Terry D (Jul 20, 2012)

Here's a couple of sources to get you started in an agent search.

Literary agents directory - find an agent on WritersNet

Find a Literary Agent or Agency | Poets & Writers

Before you approach an agent it is a good idea to have, at least, the majority of your book written (not just the first draft).  Most reputable agents won't consider an incomplete manuscript from a first-time author.  Their time is very valuable and they want to be sure that the book they would be agreeing to represent is finished.


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## Kyle R (Jul 20, 2012)

Marige said:


> You *can and should* start looking for an agent now... that's one of the huge mistakes most writers make. That is, they wait until they have finished a manuscript before looking for an agent. Bad move. On the business side of writing, you should never write anything unless you already have a buyer for it.
> 
> In the case of a novel, what you should do is write a _Book Proposal_. This consists of a synopsis, a chapter-by-chapter outline, plus the first three chapters. Truth is, most agents (and, for that matter, most publishers) only look at the first few pages unless they like what they see-- really like it. If they really like it, they'll read the first three chapters. So writing or sending any more is both unnecessary and shows your lack of professionalism. Also, the cover letter should include the synopsis, plus whatever experience/background in your life that inspired you, as well as why you feel this story will be popular.



This contradicts the advice I have encountered, especially in regards to a new, unpublished writer.

What happens if the agent is interested in the proposal and asks to read the full manuscript? Then the writer says, "Oh, I haven't anything yet, but give me five years or so and then I'll have something for you."?

It's like going to a car dealership and wanting to buy a new car. Then the dealer tells you all about this great car and you say, "It's perfect! Can I take it for a test drive?" and the dealer says, "Oh, well, the car hasn't been built yet. But in a few years it will be!"

To be fair, I haven't gone through the process of agents yet, but from what I've heard, it's best to have a manuscript completed before soliciting an agent. I can easily imagine a scenario where an agent would be annoyed at his or her time having been wasted by an unproven writer who comes along with an appealing idea but only three chapters written.


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## Primrose (Jul 20, 2012)

My goal is this:

*1.) Complete a second draft that's more coherent.* I began my manuscript last month during the first month of Camp NaNoWriMo. During the writing process, I slowly went from 5 main characters down to two. I think I'd be a naive idiot to try and do anything with it right this minute. The only things I read during the month it was written was the last paragraph or sentence that I'd previously written to remind myself where I was at.

*2.) Begin looking for reputable agents and publishers.* Aside from working on a proposal and all the technical details (not to mention cementing the basics of the first novel), I think I really need to do some leg work in this department. Thanks so much for the insight, it's a huge help and a good starting place for me.


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## Tiamat (Jul 20, 2012)

There's nothing wrong to start doing your research on agents and the market right now.  That said, there's little to no point in contacting them at this stage.  At best, you'll amuse them.  At worse, annoy them.  

As for whether or not you should be taking that route, I'd say yes.  If you're going for traditional publishing, it's pretty rare for publishing companies to consider (let alone accept) unsolicited manuscripts.

Right now, I'd say your main focus should be writing and perfecting your novel to the best of your ability.  In your down time, do some research on agents--what genres they're looking for, books and authors they've represented, what their submission guidelines are, etc.  That way, when you're ready to submit, you don't have a mountain of a list to go through.  Only after you've gotten your book as good as you can, start sending out queries.

And just so's you know, writing a good query is a beast in and of itself.

Best of luck.


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## Marige (Jul 21, 2012)

KyleColorado said:


> This contradicts the advice I have encountered, especially in regards to a new, unpublished writer.
> 
> What happens if the agent is interested in the proposal and asks to read the full manuscript? Then the writer says, "Oh, I haven't anything yet, but give me five years or so and then I'll have something for you."?...



The advice I gave earlier is the advice I was given *by* a published author (Gary Provost, _Make Every Word Count_, at a writer's conference) who specializes in writing about getting published.  When I asked him the very same thing (because that was what I was told, too) he replied that it actually depends on the agent.  And, most importantly, the work.  

It's what you might call "the standard response" or "company line" that is always given out.  I wasted years believing it and I'd like to help you avoid that.  And, perhaps, if one is taking five years, I can see the logic behind it.  But, honestly, I've always gotten the feeling that this advice comes from agents who are mostly concerned with serving their own interests... not yours.  Believe me, one thing you must understand about agents (for your own sake) is that they serve themselves and the publisher first... you come in a poor third.  So don't think agents are your friends... they aren't.  They will pretend to be... but they aren't.  

Truth be told, it can take years to find an agent interested in your work... on top of the years it takes to finish a ms.  And, as I said before, they will only ask for the first three chapters... and probably only read the first few pages of that before giving you a response.  IF, by some chance they are interested in seeing more and you don't have it yet, tell them you will send more as soon as its available.  

Let's look at the complete, typical run-down of events:

1. The first step is to send query letters.  You may send multiple query letters out at the same time.  The query should tell something about you, your work and where it stands (i.e., what level of completion).  If it is incomplete, you should give an estimate of when you expect to finish it.  It should also be no longer than one page and include a SASE.  Today, many agents accept email queries, making SASEs unnecessary.

By the way this, alone, can take months if not years.  If you are not getting a good response from a query letter, re-write it.  And always, always make sure it is flawless-- check spelling, take the time to proofread it until it is perfect.  This letter is the only thing representing you and your work.  So it better be good.

2.  Once you receive a letter or email of interest, send the above prescribed Book Proposal.  That is, Synopsis, Outline and first 2-3 chapters.   That is, of course, unless they ask for something else or something more.  But that is the standard and usually what is requested.  

Send it to one agent at a time, according to who responded first.  (That can be tough, by the way, because the busier agents often take longer to respond... but that's the way it goes.)  Include a SASE (usually a yellow envelope.  And, yes, this can get expensive) if you want your chapters back with their response.  Also send a regular 9x11" SASE in case they do want to represent you and will keep the chapters.

Most agents tell you they will take between 6-8 weeks to return a response.  I can tell you it can take up to 3 months to actually get a response.  Meanwhile, you're sitting on your hands... or, you could be working on your ms.  If you happen to have a really great idea and have managed to complete the outline and first three chapters, they already see your writing style and the way it will be presented.  IF, after all that,  they are interested, they will work with you.  

As for the whole, "the work should be finished, especially from a first-time author" thinking... why?  Whether the work is complete or not, the most a writer will be offered by a publisher is a nominal advance on sales.  OR, you may get nothing more than a promise to publish upon completion.

I honestly think they do this to keep the fiction writers in hand.  That is, to keep those who are not serious out of the fray.  

Again, professional writers never waste their time working without some sort of money or promise of money for that work.  Otherwise, you might only be wasting your time working on something no one wants.  This is a tough call because you love your idea.  Of course you do.  But, if no one wants it, move on to another idea... and another and another.  Find an idea that piques someone's interest before you spend years of your life working on it.    

This is the difference between being a writer and an author.  Writers write.  Authors get published.


Cheers!

M
P.S.  Kyle... your example of the car salesman (another agent) is unfortunate because many times that has happened.  When the Honda van was only in the building stages, they were already taking orders for it... without even having a model to test drive.  It was so backlogged, I knew some people that waited 3 years for their Honda Van.  What I mean is, if it is a good idea, you will find someone willing to wait... and work with you on it.  

P.P.S.  You kids.  Agents, whether car salesmen, real estate agents or literary agents... they're all the same.  I'm a lady so I'll keep this nice... they are not your friends.  They are sharks and they will eat you alive if you let them.  Trust me.  I've worked with all three and the only thing you can be sure of is they serve their own interests first.  I have had car salesmen refuse to even talk to me because I am a single woman-- never mind that I have owned my own car for years and have excellent credit.  I have had real estate agents happy to push through a sale, even if it means leaving me with an unliveable house-- my agent!  And I have had literary agents that, once they cannot sell my first idea to one publisher, ignore me completely.  My point is, don't worry about annoying them.  They will only be annoyed if they don't like your idea.  Pitch an idea they like and they'll be your best friend.  

P. P. P. S.  As I said in my intro, I may be new to this forum but I am not new to writing, the publishing world or working online.


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## Marige (Jul 21, 2012)

Primrose said:


> My goal is this:
> 
> *1.) Complete a second draft that's more coherent.* I began my manuscript last month during the first month of Camp NaNoWriMo. During the writing process, I slowly went from 5 main characters down to two. I think I'd be a naive idiot to try and do anything with it right this minute. The only things I read during the month it was written was the last paragraph or sentence that I'd previously written to remind myself where I was at.
> 
> *2.) Begin looking for reputable agents and publishers.* Aside from working on a proposal and all the technical details (not to mention cementing the basics of the first novel), I think I really need to do some leg work in this department. Thanks so much for the insight, it's a huge help and a good starting place for me.



That sounds like a plan.  One aspect of completing your first novel prior to approaching agents is to give you, the writer, the confidence.  I know my daughter once said, "I don't see HOW I can write a whole novel!"  I laughed.  I told her to start with short stories and just keep going.  Eventually a novel idea will occur to her (and do mean that in both ways).  At this point, she has written her first novel but isn't happy with it... sigh.

There is some wisdom in working up to a novel, too.  Writing a short story is actually a great way to build confidence and your reputation.  The only reason Stephen King went straight to publication with only the most minor hiccups is because he is a master of the short story.  While he was still in college he had already published several short stories in major magazines such as the New Yorker, etc.  I've often thought his short stories are better than most of his novels although I do like his non-horror work, too.  

You are more than welcome for whatever help I can offer.  

Oh, another way to give you a leg-up in getting a novel published is to first write a non-fiction book.  Publishers are more interested in non-fiction and will consider them much more quickly than fiction.  Once that's accomplished, they are much more open to considering works of fiction by the same author.

M


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## Kyle R (Jul 21, 2012)

Marige said:
			
		

> As for the whole, "the work should be finished, especially from a first-time author" thinking... why? Whether the work is complete or not, the most a writer will be offered by a publisher is a nominal advance on sales. OR, you may get nothing more than a promise to publish upon completion.



Because there's no reason to believe a first time author will _ever_ finish a work, let alone a good one.

Like you said, agents are looking for something they can make money from. As a new writer, one major disadvantage is she is unproven. A stellar first three chapters may not mean anything. She might simply be good at opening a story but have no idea what to do from there. What if an agent expresses his interest, but then the author decides, after a few months, that writing isn't for her, or that it's too hard, or that some other things in life have "come up" and so she won't be finishing the manuscript, "but thanks anyways"?

An agent has to consider this as a possibility with a new writer.

So yes, I understand you're recommending to save time and begin the search now. If one considers that a time-saving approach then by all means, go for it.

It _is _possible you might get lucky and find an agent that's willing to wait. That would be wonderful! Just don't be surprised if agents tell you to get lost until you have something to show for it. :\

I would rather not give an agent any excuse to say no, especially if I can help it.


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## Lacelet (Jul 21, 2012)

Primrose said:


> I think this is in the right place, if it's not it can be moved and I won't be offended.
> 
> I think I want the assistance of a literary agent. I also plan to ask  some former professors and a family friend who have published about  this, but I was wondering if anyone here could provide me some insight,  mainly on these points:
> 
> ...


All authors must have an agent from what I've read-- unless you're self-publishing. If you self-publish then you are most likely your own agent. To hire an agent isn't that easy, but isn't that hard. You should look up notable writer resources. For me, I've learned all of these facts online.



KyleColorado said:


> Because there's no reason to believe a first time author will _ever_ finish a work, let alone a good one.


It's actually kind of the same for an author who has already published one book. When it comes to (a) writing/novel project(s), the possibilities are >endless<. Just about anything could happen to complicate the project(s)... or even make it/them come to fruition easily. It could be completed in one week, or hell, even five years!


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## Newman (Jul 22, 2012)

Primrose said:


> - Do you think it works more in an author's favor to have an agent or is it just one extra hassle?
> - Are there any solid, tried and true resources for finding agents?



A good agent is worth his or her weight in gold.

Show them you will make them money. Then they'll come to you.


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## Marige (Jul 26, 2012)

KyleColorado said:


> Because there's no reason to believe a first time author will _ever_ finish a work, let alone a good one...
> 
> 
> ...It _is _possible you might get lucky and find an agent that's willing to wait. That would be wonderful! Just don't be surprised if agents tell you to get lost until you have something to show for it. :\
> ...



Kyle,

First, all this is assuming the work is good-- I mean, really stellar.  That's a given because most agents won't take you on, no matter how many books you've finished, if the work you send them is anything less than enthralling.  

Second, if someone has gotten to the point of writing three chapters, plus a full outline, chances are, they will finish the project, especially if they have encouragement.  And they will get that encouragement if the existing work is great.  Understand that it doesn't cost an agent anything to take someone on.  

Third, a point that is a huge factor in all this is the publisher's lead-in time.  That is, the time from the point at which they make a commitment to publish, until something is actually published.  That can be anywhere from 6 months to several years, depending on how they schedule releases.  The point is, they do not mind committing to something that is in the works, given that it's promising enough.  With first-time authors (and I believe I said this before), the worst case is, they won't give you an advance until the work is complete.  But a commitment is not the same as an advance.  

Fourth, and most important, while an agent *does* want to make money on your work, yes, they also know the process.  And, if they find something really promising, even at this stage, they will take on someone.  Because it also takes time for them to sell the idea, too, and they know that.

Look, whether an agent will accept the work all comes down to one thing: the quality of said work.  Period.  

Primrose asked when to start looking... in my opinion, given the amount of time it takes between queries and going through the process with each agent, it can take years.  So, I say, start right now.  

Maybe the first-time author won't finish the work.  But, as I said, if the author has managed to write out three solid chapters, plus a solid outline, and it's good, the agent will take them on-- because, while they may not make any money right now, it also costs them nothing to take on someone new.  

And they are always on the look out for the next Tom Clancy.  

M


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## Kyle R (Jul 26, 2012)

Okay. Well, if Prim or anyone else wishes to go that approach, hopefully it all works out for the best.

Unfortunately, even if that is the most accurate way to go about doing it, it wouldn't apply to me, because I don't write in chronological fashion. I generally don't know the beginning of my story until I've written it to the end. I write in scenes and rearrange them like a jigsaw puzzle until a story develops.

So, at least for me, it's all or nothing. It's the full manuscript first, or nothing to show for it. But I'm fine with that. At the moment I'm focusing on short story submissions to establish credentials and publishing credits (which I don't consider necessary, but they certainly can't hurt!).


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