# Erotic Scene (mature themes and sexual language) 1320 words



## EnglishmanRob (May 8, 2016)

*Hi! 

I'm writing a fantasy novel, and come to an important erotic scene. The main protagonist Abigail (a normal human girl of 19) has travelled to a strange fantasy city with Jack (who is over 800, but only looks about 20). He is the 2nd main character, and her principal love interest. It's about 1/3rd of the way through the book (25k words so far). The city is apparently a safe place, (weapons removed on entry) but there is danger lurking in the background. 

This scene is importance, because it moves the sexual tension between the two characters forwards dramatically, and strengthens the bonds between them. This is later a huge influence, because pretty soon after this scene, they are going to be forcibly separated for 1/3rd of the novel, and both of them will act rashly to try and reunite. So this bond is very important. 

She is a virgin, and very inexperienced with men. But she does know about sex - her female cousin is promiscuous with men and women, and is always trying to encourage her to be more active with men. So Abigail would know about basic biology, what most men enjoy etc. 

My main problem is - It's from her perspective (the whole book is her perspective). So it's about how a young lady would feel in this situation....and I'm a guy. 
So I'd like feedback, especially from any lady readers. Have I got her feelings right? Does the scene feel right? Does she act in a natural way? Especially how her body reacts to the erotic situation. 

Thanks!!!!!  *
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They then travelled to the hotel Ruby recommended. It was twenty Drakes a night for a nice room and a meal. At first Abigail wanted separate rooms, but Jack insisted they share a room, for safety. Though she knew weapons were not allowed, it was still a city she didn’t know, so she reluctantly agreed.

The meal was a fish soup with whole-meal bread rolls. Simple but delicious. The fish taste was not overpowering, and the bread was freshly baked. Then, refreshed, they went to their room.

It was a small room, on the fourth floor. The hotel, and the rented room, had a Mediterranean feel to it. Sandstone walls, a strong wooden door and a single window that was both small and high. An old red rug covered the floor. There was a bathroom to the side. The bathroom walls were thick, but the door was merely a bead curtain door. 

In the centre of the room was a single, king-sized bed.

Abigail’s brain froze, but Jack immediately took one of the pillows, put it down on the floor, and started unrolling his sleeping blanket. She started to gently protest, saying that he didn’t need to…but he waved her politeness away with his hand. “We are sharing a room to keep you safe, nothing more. I’m sure this floor will be comfortable, with a sleeping bag and a couple of pillows.”

The natural light was almost gone, and they used their torches to see by. The bathroom had a slow-burn candle, clearly meant to burn all night, incase they needed it. They took turns to visit the bathroom and change into their sleeping gear. She put on her blue cotton pajamas. Jack made do with a t-shirt and boxers.
It was colder than Abigail was comfortable with, and when she settled into the soft, warm bed covers, she felt a moment of heaven. Then a pinch of hell, as she realized Jack would be sleeping on the cold floor. As she sank deeper into the bed, her mind too, drifted into sleep.

She dreamed again of the wedding, and the words of the Yid. She dreamt of her dance with him. In her mind, her dance partner changed. Now she was waltzing with King Richard, his mighty body leaning over her as they danced. Then another change, and this time it is Jack who is dancing with her. His eyes were gazing longingly as they danced together, closer and closer until the dance was almost sexual.

Then she woke.

It was still dark outside. She could hear the city below them. And below her bed, she could hear Jack, shivering in his sleep. She got out of bed, couched down to him, and tapped him on the shoulder. He opened his eyes; he had clearly been in a very shallow sleep. She didn’t say anything, but instead gestured to the empty side of the bed. Then, she got back into her own side, and closed her eyes again.

After about thirty seconds, she felt Jack get into the other side. He stretched his limbs out under the covers, glad to be out of the confines of the sleeping bag. One of his hands brushed her own by accident. He pulled back, but she grabbed his, and held his gently. He didn’t move. It felt good for her, and so she rolled onto her side away from him, but still holding his hand, so he had to roll next to her. They were both clothed, but now they were cuddled up together in the bed. His cold body was warming up as they held each other, and soon Abigail found herself feeling warmer too. Her body started to flush, and her brain realized she had never been this close to a boy before. No, her mind corrected herself, to a man. Unconsciously, she began stroking his bare arm that was over her, and in response, Jack pulled his body closer to hers. Now they were spooning, and she could feel the heat coming off his body. She could also feel something harder, growing inside his shorts.
 Her body became more excited at the thought of what was expanding under his shorts, pushing at her back. Her nipples started to harden, and Jack’s hand now started to gently play with her breast over her pajama top. His lips were also now kissing the back of her neck, and his other arm had come to her back, and was slowly stroking down her spine. It felt so good to her, and she let out a small moan.
She realized she was becoming wet down between her legs, and she lowered her hand down to her sex. His hand moved down with hers, and his kisses on her neck intensified as he discovered her dampness. She pushed her pajama bottoms down, to avoid making them too damp, but also to allow both her and Jack’s hands more movement between her legs. He was now rubbing her pubic mound slowly clockwise, and her mind was lost in a shower of pleasure. Her body shook, and she turned her body suddenly round to face Jack, and kissed him hard. Her hand moved to his shorts as they continued to kiss, and she could feel the budge inside his shorts. Her hand moved beneath the shorts, and grasped his manhood. It was warm and hard, the blood pulsing in her hand has she held it. She slowly pulled it out from the shorts, and Jack’s own hand pulled his own shorts down to his ankles. He then pushed himself against her, their lips still kissing passionately, and she leant back, allowing Jack on top of her. He had both hands now playing with her breasts, and his head moved so he could kiss her neck. She still had her hand holding his penis, moving it slowly up and down. Then she felt Jack move his body slightly downwards, and move his manhood to the moist gap between her legs. She felt a soft pressure as the head of the penis searched for the entrance.
Suddenly she panicked, her brain waking from the pleasure filled ecstasy and realizing she had gone further than she was comfortable with. Her body tensed, and Jack instantly pulled himself off her. He too had gone far further than he had expected. He was now completely apart from her in the bed.
“I’m sorry,” he whispered.
She turned on her side to look at him, and he turned too, so he could look at her. She gazed at his beautiful, bright eyes and golden hair.
“Don’t be. I’m just not ready for that yet.” She replied in a whisper.
He smiled his normal, charming smile. She felt bad for him at that moment, and reached her hand back across to him, finding his still erect member. It had started slightly to shrink, but she began again to move her hand up and down around it, bringing it back to full strength.
“Maybe I can do this for you?” she asked him. He nodded, and softly closed his eyes. She moved her hand up and down slowly gripping his penis. It felt so good in her hand, and she felt herself becoming turned on again, but she controlled herself. Instead, she started to increase the pace, and she heard Jack take in a deep breath. A minute or so later, he whispered “close”. She didn’t stop, and another thirty seconds later, she felt a pulsing inside the cock. She kept the rhythm going as she felt his warm cum start leaking furiously from him. Her eyes were locked onto his face, watching his expressions change as he came into her hand and spilling onto the bed. Slowly his face became a grin, and, as she took her hand away, he leant back to her, kissed her on the cheek, and whispered, “thank you”.


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## PrinzeCharming (May 8, 2016)

Good morning, 

I'll help you _stimulate _some interest despite being a guy. If the scene is important, I hope you deliver it as a significant piece to your story. I am intrigued with the age range. If only we could all have the fantasy to say we're over 800, but appear to be under the legal drinking age in America. Thanks for the interesting facts about the city. That almost reminds me of _The Giver_. Ah, so I am expected to see the transitional flow of sexual tension. I hope to feel this bond strengthen. I can relate. In my WIP, I have to write the perspective of both characters in the relationship. As a male blogger for dating and relationship advice, you'll be surprised how many women readers will appreciate a male's perspective if and only if you take time to understand the other side. This thread will definitely serve that purpose. Hopefully, from my dating experience, I will chime into the details of her body language. 




EnglishmanRob said:


> They then travelled to the hotel Ruby recommended. It was twenty Drakes a night for a nice room and a meal. At first Abigail wanted separate rooms, but Jack insisted they share a room, for safety. Though she knew weapons were not allowed, it was still a city she didn’t know, so she reluctantly agreed.



Okay, we have a lot of interesting information here. Travel. Hotel. Ruby's recommendation. Who's Ruby? Drakes are the currency for your city. No concept behind that rate, but seems reasonable. If (taking your previous background info dump) Abigail is a virgin, I can understand this separation approach. A suggestion is to refine these sentences. Allow the flow more effectively. Instead of providing the benefits of the room, being a nice room and a meal, express this through a star rating. 

*Ex. *

Jack and Abigail traveled to the four star hotel Ruby recommended for twenty Drakes a night. Abigail reluctantly agreed to share a room with Jack to be safe in a foreign city maintaining a zero tolerance for guns. 

Then, if you want to introduce the meal - introduce it well. Introduce how it was delivered. It seems as if it just magically appeared. Well, technically, they walked somewhere to get it. 



EnglishmanRob said:


> The meal was a fish soup with whole-meal bread rolls. Simple but delicious. The fish taste was not overpowering, and the bread was freshly baked. Then, refreshed, they went to their room.



Although this seems appetizing, it doesn't feel like an elegant choice of words were chosen. I don't want to imagine the possibility of an overpowering fish taste. I want your words, as the writer, to create a mental imagery that may produce salivation. I want to taste this fish (especially because it's not overpowering) through your words. Feed me! Let me savor the taste with the characters. Describe the fish as the complete opposite of what you had in mind to being overpowering. The freshly baked bread is a nice touch. 



EnglishmanRob said:


> It was a small room, on the fourth floor. The hotel, and the rented room, had a Mediterranean feel to it. Sandstone walls, a strong wooden door and a single window that was both small and high. An old red rug covered the floor. There was a bathroom to the side. The bathroom walls were thick, but the door was merely a bead curtain door.



I feel as if this could have been introduced before the meal. Typically, a character unwinds and unpacks before heading over to the dining area of a hotel. I would imagine all these great descriptions of the room are introduced as soon as they open the door. The hotel and the room described in one sentence seems redundant on its own. Unless there was a reason why they would be any different, I don't see this comparison necessary. Refine this: 



EnglishmanRob said:


> Sandstone walls, a strong wooden door and a single window that was both small and high. An old red rug covered the floor. There was a bathroom to the side. The bathroom walls were thick, but the door was merely a bead curtain door.



It almost seems as if you were making a checklist to the pamphlet you read before booking the room. 



EnglishmanRob said:


> Abigail’s brain froze, but Jack immediately took one of the pillows, put it down on the floor, and started unrolling his sleeping blanket. She started to gently protest, saying that he didn’t need to…but he waved her politeness away with his hand.



I get the concept only because you provided a background prior to this event. I wouldn't understand why her brain froze. You might find a better word choice for this reaction. You can refine this for an effective dialogue flow. 

*Ex. *

She gently protested his opposition. "It's okay, honest," she suggested. 

He waved her politeness away. "I'm right here if you need me." 

Then, your next line will transition well with what was said. 



EnglishmanRob said:


> The natural light was almost gone, and they used their torches to see by.



This was an interesting concept. We're in a futuristic world. Natural light is the main source of light. Torches are used at night. 




EnglishmanRob said:


> The bathroom had a slow-burn candle, clearly meant to burn all night, incase they needed it.



'In case' = two words. 



EnglishmanRob said:


> They took turns to visit the bathroom and change into their sleeping gear. She put on her blue cotton pajamas. Jack made do with a t-shirt and boxers. It was colder than Abigail was comfortable with, and when she settled into the soft, warm bed covers, she felt a moment of heaven.



Allow your words to tuck the reader into sleep with them. Refine and reflect upon the impact of your words. Was being cold important here? 

*Ex.* 

"They took turns to visit the bathroom to change into their sleeping attire. Abigail wore her blue cotton pajamas. Jack settled with a t-shirt and boxers. Abigail settled into the soft, warm bed covers and felt a moment of heaven." 



EnglishmanRob said:


> Then a pinch of hell, as she realized Jack would be sleeping on the cold floor.


 
This was interesting. _Pinch of hell_. I am not sure what to say about it. 



EnglishmanRob said:


> She dreamed again of the wedding, and the words of the Yid.



I am going to assume the Yid was introduced prior to this event. Therefore, I would understand this reference by now.



EnglishmanRob said:


> His eyes were gazing longingly as they danced together, closer and closer until the dance was almost sexual.



Try using '*sensual*' *here*. 



EnglishmanRob said:


> After about thirty seconds, she felt Jack get into the other side. He stretched his limbs out under the covers, glad to be out of the confines of the sleeping bag.



I am not sure why 30 seconds would be important. Whether it took 30 seconds or .. described as half a minute, you can do without. You can also omit, "glad to be out of the confines of the sleeping bag" and replace it with something more significant to his feelings about her. Treat this as an opportunity to become closer to embrace each others' warmth. 



EnglishmanRob said:


> One of his hands brushed her own by accident. He pulled back, but she grabbed his, and held his gently. He didn’t move. It felt good for her, and so she rolled onto her side away from him, but still holding his hand, so he had to roll next to her. They were both clothed, but now they were cuddled up together in the bed. His cold body was warming up as they held each other, and soon Abigail found herself feeling warmer too.



Okay, here we go. The sensually explorative characters begin to embrace each other. We already know they're clothed unless something happened otherwise. This might sound crazy, but I speak from experience. When you want to write a scene with sensual engagement, get into the bed with your characters.
*
Ex. *

*Jack's hand brushed against Abigail's by accident. He quickly pulled back, but she held his hand and caressed gently. He looked deeply into her eyes as she smiled. She rolled onto her side away from him with his hand wrapped around her. She nestled between his arms and shared an intense exchange of body heat. 
*


EnglishmanRob said:


> Her body started to flush, and her brain realized she had never been this close to a boy before. No, her mind corrected herself, to a man. Unconsciously, she began stroking his bare arm that was over her, and in response, Jack pulled his body closer to hers. Now they were spooning, and she could feel the heat coming off his body. She could also feel something harder, growing inside his shorts.



Okay, this is good. Bodies are meant to flush. The brain part is throwing off the mood for me. Forget the brain. Allow her to realize this as a person. See, previously, I wanted them to spoon already. This was given she had already put him into a position to do so. I would refine this as well. Let's feel the emotions they do. Let's be in her body. Let's be in his. Allow your mind to be there to understand your characters.
*
Ex. *

*As her body began to flush, she realized she had never been this close to a boy before. A man. She began stroking his bare arm hanging over her. Jack pulled his body closer to hers. She felt something grow against her. She gently rubbed her butt against his body to confirm the mutual attraction. 
*



EnglishmanRob said:


> Her body became more excited at the thought of what was expanding under his shorts , pushing at her back. Her nipples started to harden, and Jack’s hand now started to gently play with her breast over her pajama top. His lips were also now kissing the back of her neck, and his other arm had come to her back, and was slowly stroking down her spine. It felt so good to her, and she let out a small moan.



Yes, women can feel an overwhelming excitement over this, especially if she likes the guy involved. I wouldn't say, "pushing at her back." This was now expressed in my suggested revision. I would have him caress her body with the arm wrapped around her to allow her nipples to erect. 'Harden' is also a funny word to me to express nipples. I would say, 'erect'. Some women require the extra soft touch to cause their nipples to erect. Others are naturally aroused to the fullest without doing a lot. It's a hit or miss, and I'll leave it at your call. 



EnglishmanRob said:


> She realized she was becoming wet down  between her legs, and she lowered her hand down to her sex.



You can omit 'down' as it's not necessary. Watch how you word these sentences. A virgin might react differently to being wet. Some might like the feeling, others aren't sure what to do about it. Some might not have discovered their sexuality to the fullest yet. This also plays an important role as to how she feels about masturbation. Some women simply prefer others to touch them. Some feel as if the wetness isn't that appealing. I would simply come out to describe what you mean by, "her sex" especially if you're building up to use it differently - being an action. 



EnglishmanRob said:


> His hand moved down with hers, and his kisses on her neck intensified as he discovered her dampness. She pushed her pajama bottoms down, to avoid making them too damp, but also to allow both her and Jack’s hands more movement between her legs. He was now rubbing her pubic mound slowly clockwise, and her mind was lost in a shower of pleasure. Her body shook, and she turned her body suddenly round to face Jack, and kissed him hard. Her hand moved to his shorts as they continued to kiss, and she could feel the budge inside his shorts.



I am curious to ask ... he kissed her neck more passionately when he discovered she was wet? I would keep the kisses simple. I would try my best to make her feel comfortable. If she's a virgin, this would be a moment for her to understand and appreciate her body. Allow her to discover what she likes, dislikes, and don't ever speed up the process. Ah, the mons pubis. What a beautiful place. Other than the flow of words, I see you write from experience, and that will definitely play an important role in depicting the right imagery. 




EnglishmanRob said:


> Her hand moved beneath the shorts, and grasped his manhood. It was warm and hard, the blood pulsing in her hand has she held it.



Rolls eyes. Manhood? Just come out and say it. I believe you meant, 'as' vs. 'has'. 



EnglishmanRob said:


> Then she felt Jack move his body slightly downwards, and move his manhood to the moist gap between her legs. She felt a soft pressure as the head of the penis searched for the entrance.



Manhood. Moist gap. Soft pressure. Head of the penis. Searched. Entrance. Notice, these words are very ... ambiguous. Again, if this is going to be the moment of penetration, please for the respect of your virgin character - make her first time worth the read. I would use words like, "Slowly penetrate inside," "glide against her beautiful pink lips," "teasingly glide against her," "penetrating the head inside - slowly pulling out," ... create this understanding that he respects her body. He knows she's a virgin. He knows she needs to be treated with more care. Make love.



EnglishmanRob said:


> Suddenly she panicked, her brain waking from the pleasure filled ecstasy and realizing she had gone further than she was comfortable with. Her body tensed, and Jack instantly pulled himself off her. He too had gone far further than he had expected. He was now completely apart from her in the bed.



Okay, good. These are real raw emotions of a virgin. These are also feelings of two people not ready to engage in something intimate. Her body would intense in this situation. As a man of his character, he would pull himself off. 




EnglishmanRob said:


> Her eyes were locked onto his face, watching his expressions change as he came into her hand and spilling onto the bed. Slowly his face became a grin, and, as she took her hand away, he leant back to her, kissed her on the cheek, and whispered, “thank you”.



That's one thing I admire about any woman. It's the sheer excitement of finishing the job, especially after something awkward. It's the facial expressions. The breathing. Women appreciate these small details. I am glad you depicted them as well.


Okay, time to go to work. I'll be back in the evening.


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## EnglishmanRob (May 8, 2016)

Thanks so much for your feedback PrinzeCharming! 
Lots of what you've said is really helpful.
I'm British, so I'm used to a drinking age/legal adulthood of 18. I hadn't even thought about American drinking! 

Maybe I should have said before, but it's a fantasy novel, rather than science-fiction. The main premise is a girl (abigail) who, by accident, discovers a world where fairytales and historical figures of old still live. So though she is a modern girl, she is discovering a world where people are more likely to use swords than guns. And this scene takes place in Atlantis/Kitezh/Lyonesse and all the other sunken cities merged into one. So describing the architecture is important, because the whole city is a mash of Roman/Russian/ancient Britain/Aztec etc etc. 

You're absolutely right - I need to flesh out the hotel a lot more. Where the meal is, etc. 

For the story, it's important for both of them that they don't have penetrative sex. So I want it to be that they are both trying to avoid sex, while at the same time drawn to each other. So when he brushes against her, it's not deliberate. He's not trying to initiate anything. That's why he's happy to take the floor and not share a bed with her (at first). 

Her character is quite introvert and bookish, and has a strong inner-monolog. So that's why I included the part about never being close to a man before. But it stops later, to show her brain is switching off, and her body is taking over. At least, that was the idea. Again, something to refine! 

again, completely agree that the spooning, bed positioning at the beginning needs tweaking/improving. 

With the words (manhood, moist gap, etc) I was trying to avoid the harder words, because I don't want it to become a hard-sex scene. I wanted to put through the tenderness of the situation. I often think of words like 'fucking/cock/pussy/dick' as agressive-sex words, not tender-sex words. 

*I hate those erotic stories/porn scenes where it starts "oh, I love you...you're so gentle with me...tenderness...tenderness...clothes off..."fuck me like the filthy bitch I am! Stick it up my arse and slap me till I bleed you maggot!!" scenes, where sex can only be animalistic and never tender (or even humourous!)* 

I'm glad you suggested ways I can describe the lovemaking that was about to happen, because it shows me you fully believed they were about to have sex.
Do I make it clear that nothing actually penetrative happened? I don't want even the hint that a finger (let alone a cock) entered her. 

Again, thanks so much for your feedback!


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## PrinzeCharming (May 8, 2016)

EnglishmanRob said:


> Thanks so much for your feedback PrinzeCharming!
> Lots of what you've said is really helpful.



Thanks! I appreciate it. I always strive to provide the best answer. We will definitely continue adding more to this thread to help you develop your story better 



EnglishmanRob said:


> I'm British, so I'm used to a drinking age/legal adulthood of 18. I hadn't even thought about American drinking!



Ah, that makes a lot of sense. Yes, always factor in the outside factors. If you want to broaden your readership, try to accommodate everyone, or at least inform them to what is going on. I can see a confused American teen reading your story. Simply for the cultural differences. It's minor, but it changes the perspective. 



EnglishmanRob said:


> Maybe I should have said before, but it's a fantasy novel, rather than science-fiction. The main premise is a girl (abigail) who, by accident, discovers a world where fairytales and historical figures of old still live. So though she is a modern girl, she is discovering a world where people are more likely to use swords than guns. And this scene takes place in Atlantis/Kitezh/Lyonesse and all the other sunken cities merged into one. So describing the architecture is important, because the whole city is a mash of Roman/Russian/ancient Britain/Aztec etc etc.



Yeah, I wasn't sure what to get from it. Thanks for the clarification. Interesting. Accidentally discovering another world. She just stumbled upon a door of some sort? Yeah, this world makes a lot of sense now. Her fear, as a modernized young woman, is clear now. Despite the zero tolerance for guns, she is still in a foreign environment. She is still going to be uncomfortable. Okay, thanks for the geographical clarification as well. It definitely helps.  



EnglishmanRob said:


> You're absolutely right - I need to flesh out the hotel a lot more. Where the meal is, etc.



It was quite entertaining in a sloppy way. The characters knew Ruby recommended a decent hotel room with meals. Well, how would they know about the room? Did they drop their stuff and food magically appeared? They are minor additions to the story, but they will make a greater impact for clarity. Imagine being there. Focus on what you see the minute you arrive, approach the service desk, grab the keys, find and enter the room. Placing yourself into the scene may help you write the descriptions. 



EnglishmanRob said:


> For the story, it's important for both of them that they don't have penetrative sex. So I want it to be that they are both trying to avoid sex, while at the same time drawn to each other. So when he brushes against her, it's not deliberate. He's not trying to initiate anything. That's why he's happy to take the floor and not share a bed with her (at first).



I wasn't sure about their intentions. She seemed to accept him as him. I got that part. He seemed protective enough to respect her and proceed with caution. This is probably why I knew to direct my feedback more away from a sexualized dream into a sensual one. I knew the brush against her was just his hand and her body in the way of each other. I understood that. My feedback was simply leading into her awareness that may or may not be interpreted the same. She simply grabbed his hand because she wanted to act upon the moment. I figured they weren't initiating anything but an intimate bond. 



EnglishmanRob said:


> Her character is quite introvert and bookish, and has a strong inner-monolog. So that's why I included the part about never being close to a man before. But it stops later, to show her brain is switching off, and her body is taking over. At least, that was the idea. Again, something to refine!



My initial impression about the boy to man emphasis was primarily the emphasis of her being isolated from intimacy. Then, it became generalized. Not just boys, but a man by her side. The brain part seemed to throw me off a bit. I'll go back, read it again, and focus on the brain functioning. I'll see what I can suggest for the overall incorporation. 



EnglishmanRob said:


> again, completely agree that the spooning, bed positioning at the beginning needs tweaking/improving.



I am glad you also see this point of view. I have always been passionate in this field. I find it intriguing how a woman will question why a man hasn't gone further when he circles his fingers around her waistline. I am absolutely mind blown how entitled this society has become to others' bodies.



EnglishmanRob said:


> With the words (manhood, moist gap, etc) I was trying to avoid the harder words, because I don't want it to become a hard-sex scene. I wanted to put through the tenderness of the situation. I often think of words like 'fucking/cock/pussy/dick' as agressive-sex words, not tender-sex words.



Yes, avoid them at all costs! Hence why I say, '_penetrating_' vs. '_fucking'_. I would use, '_pink lips_' vs. 'labias'. You are right about that. However, simply just say penis. Clitoris. Get straight to the terminology. _Mons pubis_. It's a hit or miss though. Maybe it's a default filter for your mature audience. If they can understand, they'll appreciate it more. 



EnglishmanRob said:


> *I hate those erotic stories/porn scenes where it starts "oh, I love you...you're so gentle with me...tenderness...tenderness...clothes off..."fuck me like the filthy bitch I am! Stick it up my arse and slap me till I bleed you maggot!!" scenes, where sex can only be animalistic and never tender (or even humourous!)*



Yes, I feel as if they are too fabricated. I could never take those stories seriously. 



EnglishmanRob said:


> I'm glad you suggested ways I can describe the lovemaking that was about to happen, because it shows me you fully believed they were about to have sex.



Again, I wasn't really sure about the intent, but ... given the circumstances, I wanted to put her interests ahead before anything happens. 



EnglishmanRob said:


> Do I make it clear that nothing actually penetrative happened? I don't want even the hint that a finger (let alone a cock) entered her.



No, as far as I am aware. The 'head' was 'searching' for the 'entrance'. Nothing ever explained going inside. This area seemed confusing. Perhaps, you can refine this as well. 



EnglishmanRob said:


> Again, thanks so much for your feedback!




No problem! Just doing my job.


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## Jay Greenstein (May 9, 2016)

The problem, as I see it, is pervasive, and has far greater effect than on this scene, which is that you are telling this story as a chronicle of events. You, the narrator, are explaining the story to the reader in _your_ words, and through what _you_ observe. And because you are an outside observer, whose voice cannot be heard, and whose mental state if both unknown and irrelevant, the words are, and _must be_ dispassionate. But do you read to learn the details or to be made to feel as the protagonist does, and worry over their problems? In other words, learn, or be entertained?

So there she is, feeling and reacting, while there you are, talking about it to us. But sex is intensely emotional. From the outside it's just someone touching someone else, while from the inside what's happening can be a life changing explosion of emotion. No way in hell can your words make the reader know how she feels, if for no other reason that because we know you're not a mind reader, you are making the whole thing up.

And because a narrator cannot make the reader feel what the character does, you end up talking about plumbing and motions. You say, for example, "His cold body was warming up as they held each other, and soon Abigail found herself feeling warmer too." That's a report, because "warmer" has no intensity attached, and no nuance. It could men she's ligterally not cold anymore. It could also mean becoming aroused. And we should know that from the word you choose, not have to wait for it to be explained in more detail. Of more importance, we don't learn what it feels like _to her_. Remember, she's new at this, so all the emotions and feelings are new, too, and mist be analyzed, and either accepted or rejected. Can all that be summed up with the word "warm?"

Compare that approach to the same sort of situation from A Chance Encounter—a romance—where our protagonist, a virgin, is next to the man she has fallen in love with:





> His fingertips touched her back, feather light, and he left them there for a moment before exploring her back from shoulder to hip in an intensely satisfying way, still using only fingertips.
> 
> “Mmm?” he asked, after a minute or so, prompting her for a response.
> 
> ...



See the difference? The focus isn't on what's done, it's on her reaction and response to what was done. And rather than being a report, in the form, "This happened...then that happened...and she said... and after that..." which is fact-based and author-centric, it's presented in real time, in the moment she calls now, in way that's both character-centric and emotion based. It's presented (hopefully, because we can't judge the success of our own writing) as if the reader was the protagonist, and reacting. And if it's done well, the reader will feel what the character is feeling, not react to a description spoken in a voice  they can't hear. And presented that way, as if we are the protagonist, we _can_ present her thoughts because they come from her—in response to the situation we just experienced with her—not the narrator.

And here's the deal: that approach works not only in scenes of passion, it works for the whole damn novel, giving the reader an emotional, rather than a factual connection to the protagonist. It's what makes a reader care.

Look also at a side-effect of the approach. Instead of reading what amounts to a detailed history of a character's experiences—an overview—we are in the moment the character calls now, which means the future is uncertain. And that's the difference between history and fiction. History is immutable, and so holds no uncertainty. The author will _tell us_ what comes next. But presented as I did in those few paragraphs _she_ will decide what to do next. And because her decisions will influence what happens in response to what she does and says now, the reader has been given reason to _want_ to know what she will do and what changes that will bring, making your reader, in effect, a participant.

And isn't that more entertaining that reading a detailed history book?

Take a peek at this article. It defines the trick I used in that excerpt, one you can use every bit as well, once you make the technique part of your writing toolkit. It's a very different approach from what we learned in school. But there, we were learning to handle nonfiction applications, like reports, essays, and letters—things our future employers need us to know. The tevhnique I used is a part of the specialized tricks used by professional writers. And the only ones who require that knowledge are fiction writers and advertising people (well, also those who write shareholder report, too, I suppose). And since you're writing fiction, and would like to be seen as at a pro level writer, a few of those tricks can give your writing wings. In fact, after you master a few you'll look back on your own writing and shake your head, wondering how you could have missed seeing the problem. But as Mark Twain so wisely observed, “It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.”

To get rid of some of that, "just ain't so," you may want to devour a few opinions on what matters from the pros: the publishers, teachers, and successful writers. My personal favorite is by Dwight Swain, the man who's work is condensed in the article I linked to. Like Randy Ingermanson, the writer of the article, I feel that his book is one every writer should have.  Some others, nearly as good, are by Jack Bickham, and Debra Dixon. For insight into style issues, Sol Stein on Writing is useful, and Donald Maass has a book that shows the agent's view (and Don is a top agent)

You might poke around in the writing articles in my blog for a bit of an overview of the issues. Most of the opinions are Dwight Swain's, restated.

But whatever you do, hang in there, and keep on writing.


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## EnglishmanRob (May 9, 2016)

Thanks for your feedback Jay.
However, this is just one scene, from 26,000 words already written. And all the words are in this style. I'm aiming for 3rd person limited. 

So to re-write this one scene in a very different style and perspective, would not fit with the rest of the book. I'd end up re-writing all 25k to make this 1k fit!!


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## PrinzeCharming (May 9, 2016)

*Jay, 
*
Thanks for your feedback. It is greatly appreciated. What exactly is the problem? Is it pervasive to tell the story as a chronicle of events? I am looking for a clarification here. I can understand where you're going with the narration. This is why I have previously mentioned to _be _the characters rather than from an outside perspective. Is sex necessarily intensely emotional? Can everyone relate to experiencing an intensely emotional sexual experience? I believe the author clearly stated that sex was not intentional here. I also believe the feelings between the two characters were depicted enough to understand the emotional barrier between the two.

 I do agree with you that the author should clarify that the warmth depicted here should be rephrased as 'aroused'. I, personally, use this method as well. There is a magical feeling behind warming up to being aroused. A blazing fire in the fireplace can create warmth, not arousal. Arousal, when written precisely, is a fascinating topic to describe facial features naturally changed from the nervous system. Google parasympathetic vs. sympathetic nervous system. Now, concluding this area, you are absolutely right. 'Warm' does not cut the emotional and physical changes Abigail faces.

I like how you brought up a reason to why a reader would care what they are reading. I am a firm believer of word choice being precise enough to depict hidden emotions that the author would not express through their voice, but from the voice of their characters. 


Good insight. Thanks.


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## JustRob (May 9, 2016)

You've received some valuable feedback on this already, but as another English Rob maybe I ought to add my thoughts for what they are worth. Tackling this tricky subject is an aspect of my writing that I am still working on because it's quite a balancing act. Given the supposed PG13 objective of these forums I only post my examples of this type of work in the NotPornNotEroticaSexWriting restricted group where discussion of the details can be more open, but here I'm only concerning myself with the writing style. I've no idea what counts as romance nowadays.

I think I am repeating what you have already been told here in saying that your style doesn't seem to engage the reader closely enough with the girl's thoughts and feelings, if that is your intention. This may be a subtle difference between what you call third person limited and my efforts to write third person subjective, but I'm not really up on the official terminology. I attempt to give every narrative statement a personalised element that brings the reader inside the character's mind so that they see the scene through that person's eyes in effect. In my novel I wrote a scene about a first encounter between a boy and girl from both their viewpoints, but did so in different chapters in different parts of the book. Even though the setting, events, actions and dialogue are the same in both chapters the highly subjective nature of the narrative presents the scene very differently in each. Doing this highlights the differences in their attitudes and feelings and demonstrates what needs to change for their relationship to develop in the later part of the novel. 

My angel says that sex is ten percent friction and ninety percent imagination. She's most likely right. In both your relationships and your writing there has to be a part of your mind that is inside the woman's, so to speak, to share in at least part of that ninety percent. It is a skill worth developing, even without becoming a writer. For example, to me your description of the room is impersonal, an opportunity to share the girl's thoughts missed. It needs more literary foreplay to build an atmosphere for what follows. Firstly, why is she looking at the room in this way? If the narrative is all from her viewpoint she must be. Narrative can be omniscient even when limited (subjective) if it describes thoughts and feelings that the character may not be admitting even to themself. Is she assessing the room to distract herself from the thought that she is sharing it with him? How well might that work? The small high window (unobserved, intimate), the bathroom (bodily functions, but also a reminder of her duty of care to her body), the beaded curtain (the possibility of unintentionally sharing more than intended), the king-sized bed (not just the comfort and relaxation suggested by a small single bed but in addition opportunity, sharing, activity, _mobility_), however she looks at it the key feature in the room is his presence because of his presence in her mind. In a way the setting for the action isn't really the room at all but her mind. Later at a critical moment she mentally pulls away from him, but all that physically happens is that her body tenses. Fortunately he is with her in mind and responds to this appropriately. You have already mentioned the mental dance in her dream and here they are enacting that, so use the opportunity to represent the events to the reader on the two planes, the physical and mental. 

Project this dual representation to the reader in the narrative so that there is no doubt that they are really sharing her experiences, not just observing them. I don't think that represents a significant change of style, just a change of degree wherever the opportunity occurs. If you are really committed to a limited viewpoint and want to convey that to the reader stay focussed on that idea in every phrase. So, for example, "It felt so good to her" becomes just "It felt so good". Paradoxically including the words "to her" implies that your narrative is overall taking a wider viewpoint, so instead of eliminating doubt in the reader's mind it creates it, leaving them assuming that elsewhere you could equally well be mentioning his feelings rather than hers. I found writing the same scene from two different viewpoints a valuable exercise and I have rewritten it from both several times because it is a key element of the story. By doing this one can compare the two accounts and ask why some parts look the same in both and whether they really should despite being seen from differing viewpoints. That's a measure of just how subjective your narrative is. 

I'm not particularly experienced at writing this type of thing, but have been told that my efforts at it are very effective, so maybe I'm doing something right and it was worth my commenting here.


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## Jay Greenstein (May 15, 2016)

EnglishmanRob said:


> Thanks for your feedback Jay.
> However, this is just one scene, from 26,000 words already written. And all the words are in this style. I'm aiming for 3rd person limited.
> 
> So to re-write this one scene in a very different style and perspective, would not fit with the rest of the book. I'd end up re-writing all 25k to make this 1k fit!!



First of all, third person limited is an authorial preference. And though I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, while it's true you're using third person pronouns, the "person" you use has nothing to do with viewpoint.

Is there a difference between:

I went to the garage to get the car and brought it out front to pick up Elsie.
He went to the garage to get the car and brought it out front to pick up Elsie.
Jack went to the garage to get the car and brought it out front to pick up Elsie.
You went to the garage to get the car and brought it out front to pick up Elsie.

In all cases the same person went to the same place and did the same thing. And for that person, the one living the story is is always present tense first person. But in all three cases, the line is not in the viewpoint of the character because it's a summation. And the entire sentence could be replaced by, Jack turning to Elsie and saying, "I'll get the car and meet you out front." We could use the time to develop character with something like:

As he walked to the garage, Jack thought over what Elsie had said. She was right, but did he love her enough to give up his freedom? That was uncertain, but even the fact that he was thinking about that said the answer was no.

That way the travel is incidental, to provide ambiance and use up a small block of time. But the emotional issue is what matters. And told in his viewpoint, in real-time, we go with him, making the time seeming to pass for us as it does for him. And that's the key to reality. We can't make people see, as film does, but we can go somewhere film can't: into his head.

So it's not a matter of rewriting this scene and leavin g the rest as is, because the things I pointed are systemic. Look at the first two paragraphs:





> They then travelled to the hotel Ruby recommended. It was twenty Drakes a  night for a nice room and a meal. At first Abigail wanted separate  rooms, but Jack insisted they share a room, for safety. Though she knew  weapons were not allowed, it was still a city she didn’t know, so she  reluctantly agreed.
> 
> The meal was a fish soup with whole-meal bread rolls. Simple but  delicious. The fish taste was not overpowering, and the bread was  freshly baked. Then, refreshed, they went to their room.


Place yourself into the reader's position, someone seeking entertainment. you're giving them detail, and delaying the arrival of actual story movement. As a reader, do I care that they went to a specific hotel when I can't see it? Does it matter what it cost? Do I care what they ate for dinner? None of that either sets the scene, meaningfully, moves the plot, or develops character. We know what they ate, but not what they talked about. And if their conversation and emotional exchanges—and the mood that sets—doesn't matter enough to report, why tell the reader what they ate? If it was morning, and it's now evening, won't we assume they ate normal meals and used the bathroom as necessary? As Alfred Hitchcock observed, "Drama is life without the dull bits."

And if you're explaining the scene here, as an outsider reporting such things, isn't that going to be true everywhere? So it's not a matter for fixing some dialog, though I really wish it could be that easy. You talk about other scenes, but are you aware of the differences between what's called a scene on stage and in film, and on the page? On the stage the term comes from scenery, and a change of scene involves backdrops and changes in location. But on the page a scene is commonly a unit of tension, ending in disaster for the protagonist as s/he fails to achieve the scene goal and must rethink and lick their wounds before beginning the next scene.

But that difference, one of many, isn't mentioned during our school days because only fiction writers require that knowledge, and we were taught general skills, primarily useful to our future employers. So that single aspect of writing is one of the better kept secrets. But who's to tell us, given that everyone around us went through the same education?

I know this is terrible news, given all the work you've done, and the hours you spent on that story. I know it because I had written six unsold manuscripts before I paid for a professional critique. When it came back I opened it, expecting lots of comments and grammar points, but all-over, a "Great story, though." What I got was a literal sea of blue ink on the page. It flowed between the lines, ran in the margins, and threatened to slosh off the page. It was the single most traumatic event of my life, till that time. All I could do was slide the pages back in the envelope and close it into a drawer, where I couldn't see it. It took me three days to bring myself to look again. That went little better, though, as I raged at her stupidity at misunderstanding such clearly stated ideas.

Two more days of ignoring the manuscript followed. But then, trying to see why the editor had reacted that strongly I looked at each comment with an open mind. And as much as I hated to admit it, each one was spot on. I had been talking _to_ the reader as if they could hear me, and thinking like the camera recording the film version, without realizing that all the nuance of environment, setting, and character emotion the film would show was missing in simply mentioning what was to be scene. My characters actions were pop psychology and the action was reported more as a historical record than the interaction of living people. In short, it was lousy.

But that was the day I began taking steps to learn what it was I was trying to do, and how the reader perceives our words. It was painful to learn, but on the other hand, I sold the next novel I wrote. So in all, it was well worth the pain.

Never forget that readers are volunteers, not conscripts. The moment they stop finding the moment-to-moment reading entertaining they stop. And if they do, they will never get to know our amazing characters.

In the end, if we don't spend some time, and a few dollars on our professional education, can we think of ourselves as serious about writing?

Keep writing, of course. But while you do put some time aside to dig into the techniques and tricks the pros take for granted.


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## JustRob (May 16, 2016)

Good advice Jay. Very much what I was trying to get across in my less experienced way. Near the beginning of my novel a character actually says "It isn’t happening, but I think it’s real." In a way that is the experience that we are attempting to create within the reader's mind. There's a difference between conveying what is happening and what the characters perceive. One is documentary and the other is experiential. Maybe this is the essence of the difference between showing and telling.

Maybe we try to run before we can walk when we attempt to write fiction. Perhaps it would be better to start out simply by writing a personal diary to eliminate the extra task of making things up. By just writing about one's day one can experiment with the different approaches. For example, does the diary of Samuel Pepys actually directly tell us anything about the man himself, or is it primarily documentary? Even when he discovers his wife with her dancing master "not dancing but talking" and suspects the worst he records his own feelings in much the same documentary style as every other event in his life. Although he conveys the information his style doesn't invite the reader to share what he experiences to my mind. A diary can go much deeper than that. A good writer should be able to write an experiential account of their day and imbue it with interest regardless of what actually happens if their mind is an interesting place for a reader to visit.

I have posted in these forums many little, hopefully amusing, observations after our weekly visits to the supermarket. These often arise simply from reading signs and product labels as like a zombie I push the trolley along behind my angel. On these occasions I do not document what is happening but what I perceive, which is a very different world. It's good practice.


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## SenileBeagle (May 18, 2016)

Here's my 2 cents.  


"she felt a moment of heaven. Then a pinch of hell..." << This is good description.


"Her body became more excited a*t the thought of what was expanding under his shorts, pushing at her back.*"  << This could be toned down some.  You might try something like, "His excitement was palpable."  It's just a suggestion, really.  All in all, I think you handled the nearly-sex-scene well.  And that's not easy to do.  It's tough trying to decide how much to show/tell.  


At any rate, I like where the story is going and would enjoy reading more.  Keep writing!


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## EmmaSohan (May 21, 2016)

We are having this important discussion, in this off-beat place, why?

It seems like Jay is making a very important point about _all _of writing. I want to disagree, but first I want everyone at Writingforums to read it and understand the importance of what he's saying.

Okay, a sex scene.



> And below her bed, she could hear Jack, shivering in his sleep. She got out of bed, couched down to him, and tapped him on the shoulder. He opened his eyes; he had clearly been in a very shallow sleep. She didn’t say anything, but instead gestured to the empty side of the bed. Then, she got back into her own side, and closed her eyes again.



This is just a description of what is happening. It can work, because I will imagine what she is thinking. If EnglishmanRob doesn't care what I imagine, my free choice is probably good. If we crawl inside her mind and write first person, we still get only a description of him. So that hopefully works a little.

That's my disagreement. Jay?

It's just probably a little better if you tell me what she's thinking and feeling. That's where I think Jay is exactly right. And once you do that, you have more possibilities for telling the story.



> Suddenly she panicked, her brain waking from the pleasure filled ecstasy and realizing she had gone further than she was comfortable with. Her body tensed



EnglishmanRob writes feelings. But when people panic, their brain stops working. Right? I would first realize I was uncomfortable, and be sure about that, and just guess about why. But you know that, those are just human reactions. I am guessing you didn't think through the scene from his or her perspective. Which is really hard to do, but I think you care.


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## Jay Greenstein (May 21, 2016)

> If we crawl inside her mind and write first person, we still get only a description of him. So that hopefully works a little.


Crawling into her persona (not just her mind) is good, but that doesn't require first person. Remember, no matter the person and tense we may use to describe the scene, for the one living it—our protagonist—the time is always the present, and they are living it first person.

There's no difference between "His touch on my back made me warm inside," and "His touch on her back made her warm inside." But neither is in her viewpoint. Instead, it's a report from an external observer on the situation, in a tone of voice that cannot be heard. That can work if you're telling it verbally, and say it as, "His touch on her back made her..._warm_ inside." But on the page it's all in a neutral voice. But if we expressed it as she feels it, with something like,

His fingertips touched her skin, leaving a trail of warmth, bringing shocked surprise, and, _Oh...my...god,_  to her thoughts. Without consulting her in the matter, her body had changed, "No, no, no," to "Yes, yes yes."

The object of the original is to inform the reader of events taking place, to which they can only say, "Uh-huh.

The second version's goal is to evoke the same response in the reader that she has, by giving the cause, and her reaction and decision making. You are _not_ going to make the reader horny by mentioning plumbing. But put them into her place, knowing and feeling with her; focus on emotion, not events, and...

Hope this makes sense


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## EmmaSohan (May 21, 2016)

Okay. As far as I know, the standard advice at WritingForums is to just present the scene and let the reader decide what the character's reaction is. Or, show it by words, or by nonverbal gestures. And saying her thoughts and feelings is pretty much in the same category as devil worship, writing young adult, or using adverbs.

I agree with your advice. But sometimes, if it's obvious from the scene what the person is feeling, I won't mention it. Like in a tense action scene, I probably won't mention that she's filled with adrenaline.

And if it's a romance, and I'm telling it from her point of view, I have to use those other tools to show what he is thinking and feeling.

That's one thing. The other is, the way you describe things, first-person present should be perfect. I understand your third person can be very subjective, but you are are still describing what she is feeling instead of being inside her conscious mind. Really, I can't rewrite your description into my style of first person. But that lets you say more about her, which is good.

My no-to-yes scene:

And I shouldn't let him unhook my bra, and finally, _finally_, I am _consumed _with guilt and I finally say "No." But just as I say it, he fondles my nipple, and my brain explodes with pleasure. "No?" he asks.

"I meant yes." I have trouble saying that many words.


Notice how events just happen, one after another, there is nothing to suggest one causes the other. You talk about one event causing another in your scene, and things that are happening to her that she probably doesn't realize.

So I'm trying to understand these issues. Thanks.


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## PrinzeCharming (May 21, 2016)

Jay Greenstein said:


> You are _not_ going to make the reader horny by mentioning plumbing. But put them into her place, knowing and feeling with her; focus on emotion, not events, and...



If the writer depicts the events well, the reader will be caught up with the character's emotions. Intimacy in literature isn't effective for the decisions a character makes, but the words selected to express the decisions. That's how you will make your reader aroused._ Slow circular motions. Soft gentle licks caressing along the sides. The lollipop grew smaller._ You don't even need to write anything intimate with anyone. Seduce your reader. Make them engaged. Make them think outside the box. Bring out their perversion.


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## TataSweets44 (Jun 19, 2016)

Personally I liked where your story is going but I feel like I'm not getting enough emotion from her. As a young virgin I feel as if she'd be hesitant and her heart would pick up speed. Think maybe going on a roller coaster for the first time. You're excited, anxious, scared. All these emotions flying at you at once. That's what I want to feel when I'm reading about this girl's (sort of) first time. 

Other than that it was a good read!


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## Stone Angel (Aug 2, 2016)

I've read some of the comments but not all as that would be a lot of reading so i hope i'm not repeating anyone...

The almost sex scene has some juicy bits but not enough conflicting emotions from her and intensity. She is a virgin but she really sounds like she wanted him - why isn't she ready, why does she want him so much - why oh why is she going to have to stop? That kind of thing.

And if you want the bond between them to be balanced and hold firm, she wouldn't finish him off, and he wouldn't say thank you. From a girl's insight that would be awkward in their first romantic moment. He should be a man - maybe she would carefully attempt to try out of shame for letting him down but he would take her hand and pull it to his chest - he would say they have time - He would hold her as if it's ok that she didn't want to go on, and not let her believe he deserved to be finished off for what she did.

Sometimes quick steamy sentences are better than drawn out details. I have written a far amount of sex scenes and if you wanted me to post you some let me know. I'm intrigued by your story. Sounds like a real page turner.


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## Annoying kid (Aug 19, 2016)

When you say Mediterranean I'm confused as to where this is set. That makes it sound like our world, unless their fantasy world had the one in a gajillion coincidence of calling their equivalent land the Meditarranean too.  

Little things like that take me out of the scene.


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