# Religion... pro/anti? I can't find God.



## thedreamweaver (Jun 29, 2007)

It’s really late; even now I see the digital onscreen clock creep with its sly digits towards midnight. Yet I can’t sleep and somehow I don’t seem to be able to do anything but think and write – despite the fact that the capacity of my thinking and writing is painfully slim. 

I feel sad and I don’t know why; desperate for something which I can’t quite hone out; sobbing inside for something lacking but which I know I’ll never find. How could I, after all, when I can’t even pinpoint exactly what it is?

On the surface I’m bubbly and carefree, disregarding any kind of problems with an optimistic, slightly disapproved flourish. But inside I’m crying out for – for what? I can’t tell, and perhaps I’m exaggerating but I do feel there is something vital, something crucial, something missing from my life. Almost as if I’m pursuing something beautiful and perfect, that will complete my life, but yet – it eludes me, merely because I don’t really know its own nature. 

Do you know what I really wish? I wish I could find God. I wish there was a God, because for some reason lately I’ve really felt the need for one. That, of course, in typical Freudian way, explains it all. Because I’ve wanted a God to exist recently, doubts begin to form in my mind about my own deep-rooted atheism. It’s pure selfishness; I tell myself, since I’m only fabricating these inclinations to suit my feeling and ease my mood. Yet reading the above paragraph, I know what a religious person would direct me to do: to find God. 

I wish I could find God. I wish I could find solace in religion; pray, and convince myself that everything will turn out all right (or that even if it didn’t, there would be a greater purpose for it). But I can’t, I really can’t believe. I hope with everything in me that there is something else – something more – because if there isn’t, life is the most overrated and yet futile activity on earth. Looking at it this way, it is wholly depressing. There is no getting away from it. No matter what we do on earth – whether we are scholars or tramps, old men or babies – we end up in the same unconscious eternity, the same infinite nothingness. Religion tells us that death is not necessarily an end, but merely the end of a single phase. Science, ever contrary to these Sunday school, comforting views, tells us that death is just a blunt finish-line in a race that nobody wins.

That reminds me of a Paul Simon lyric….”Laugh about it; shout about it… when you’ve got to choose – every way you look at it, you lose…”

In a way that’s kind of relevant to life as a whole: whether you laugh in life, shout or perhaps even cry, whether you choose religion or science, belief or non-belief – every way you look at it, you lose in the end. Nobody’s ultimately a winner. Unless of course, Karl Marx was wrong when he declared religion ‘the opiate of the masses”.


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## JoannaMac (Jun 29, 2007)

I sometimes wish there was a god too. I consider myself an aethiest, but when I feel particularly shitty or want something very badly, I sometimes find myself looking upwards and asking for help. But if I actually think about what a god is and does, then just I feel angry. With all that goes on in the world, how can God let it all happen? What is the point of having a god if he/she/it is omnipotent? I understand the concept of 'free will' and all that, but if we're all God's children as the bible says, then how is he/she in any way a good parent when a few of his/her children have lots, and the rest (92%) has trouble putting food on the table each day? God loves us? Yeah well, he/she has a funny way of showing it.

I don't believe in God per se, but I can't say absolutely that I don't believe in possibility of spirits, or the possibility of people who can contact them. So if you're willing to entertain the possibility of life after death, then you come back to the question of the existance of some kind of god or higher being.......Nah, I still don't believe in God

I think what you're experiencing is a kind of melancholy that affects many 'thinking people'. If you're a sensitive person and know even a little bit about what's going on in the world, about the misery and suffering that billions of people experience everyday, how can you be truly happy?

The melancholy is also a yearning for more. More what? I don't know either, but this disatisfaction we live with is I guess what they call "the human condition". Welcome to the adult world.........


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## thedreamweaver (Jun 29, 2007)

It's true. I find that a truly good God cannot exist, at least not in the conventional way that people suppose. I guess I'm an agnostic, since while I don't propound a typical 'old bearded man' God, I am less sure about whether there might well be some kind of something. A spirit - a something - not even necessarily a 'creator' figure or anything that has any influence on our lives, but just something that exists, parallel to earth and parallel to the human race.


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## Linton Robinson (Jun 29, 2007)

Leave religion out of it.  The very concept is twisting the concept of God around to the point that you can't get close to the reality.

Don't worry about belief, even.  You are essentially talking about a personal experience.  A way of looking at the world.  There is no possible proof available, pro or con.   Essentially you decide to believe and accept because you want it that way.

You don't need to explain or defend it.  It's a way of feeling, a self-guidance system. 

Orientation to the ultimate,  to the intelligence behind things, of which your own experience and intelligence is a tiny chip containing all details, just as each cell of your body contains the information of the whole, is individual.

An analogy would not be the feudal lord model you hear about in church, it would be like experiencing love or orgasm.  If somebody told you those don't exist you would simply realize that they are frigid or heart-crippled and feel sorry for them.  No amount of argument of description on their part would affect your own experience.

Try meditation.   Any kind.  It's worth noting that budhism is the most sane of the world's religions and they don't even talk about God, as such.  

Try prayer.  If you want to know somebody, even a dog, you talk to them.  Much of what goes on here is in that still, personal space in which you open yourself to guidance from something bigger, older, wiser, and more experienced than you are.   If you get answers from prayers, you are on the track.

I don't mean answers like what school to go to or getting that cadillac you prayed for.   The only REAL prayer is to seek to do the will of the highest elements you can experience.   And throwing in a little thanks is not a bad idea, it sets a tone for you, doesn't it?  If you don't feel you have anything to be thankful for, that may be part of your problem.

It's instructive to note some precepts of the 12 Step Program (AA, NA, etc.)  One is to define "God" or "higher power"   AS I UNDERSTAND IT
That's pretty profound.  For one thing, what good is anything you can't understand?  
Another is praying only for God's will in your life.  If you can find a consistent reason towards ANY path that seems to express the deeper meanings and feelings of your life, you are ahead of the game.  The deeper and more central these feelings are, the more significant they are and the more you can feel that they are who you are.

You could do worse than to worship the sun.   You look at what the solar system is for awhile and what are you seeing?   All matter, all energy, all paths and plans and lives spinning out as ever-tinier eddies in the field of light and energy radiating from a central source that gives all life, that gives everything.  THe more you know about it, the more profound the relationship between yourself and the sun is seen to be.   

To expand that concept and feeling a little approaches the general feel of a lot of the spiritual experience of humans on earth.  From a saddhu basking in bliss to black baptists rolling and crying out at the wash of music and soul.

If atheist arguments hold you back from this, consider two things:
Outside of pure mathematics it is almost impossible to prove that anything does not exist.  There is always the alternate explanation, that it just wasn't perceived.   Where as observation by any one person is enough to convince that the thing exists.

Here's another one:  atheism, in which I include the entire mechanistic, soul-less explanation of our existance,  is among other things a fad.  It might be a factor of your isolation from nature and each other.  Living in the natural world is a strong persuader towards the agency of an intelligence behind the structure and process of things.
But the idea that there is something going on other than  random chance is the oldest idea, most widely held and felt, most powerful and productive concept in human history.

Ultimately there is nobody but yourself to make these sort of alignments.  If you are lucky your direction moves you towards those who experience life the way that you do.


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## Foxee (Jun 29, 2007)

If you aren't sure there is a God, there is no harm in praying, "If you're there, God, help me to find you." 

If he's not there, you've lost nothing but a few simple words. If he is, I'm sure he's perfectly capable to make himself real to you. 

While I believe that God exists and is all-powerful, I also believe he allows himself to be known by those who want to find him. He also allows for people to ignore him.

I am not going to debate this. A question has been asked and I've answered.


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## aimeefriedland (Jun 29, 2007)

you are really deep girl. perhaps you should walk down the street, go to the local supermarket... perhaps you left him there?


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## aimeefriedland (Jun 29, 2007)

btw. if it so inspires you - i am a hardcore athiest, so maybe now you should turn to God, considering how you despise me.


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## patthager (Jun 29, 2007)

I agree with lin.  Most religions are not much more then well worded nonsense.  But, the further east you go, the more intelligent they get.  This whole concept of FINDING or EXPERIENCING a god is a western concept with western wording invented by western missionaries (like Columbus or Cortez).  I would probably say that you will never experience a god unless you were raised by Christian parents, have almost exclusively christian friends, and go to church regularly.  It takes a specifically cultured mind, you have to fit a certain mold.

There is a whole in many peoples lives.  Most people fill it with friends and magazines, others with self pity, some with religion.  People should not be so ready cram their souls with whatever comes along.  Stop being perfect, stop being complete, and develope an individuality
p.s. dont get lost in the supermarket


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## Linton Robinson (Jun 29, 2007)

Agnosticism(essentially, I Don't Know) is the most honest and unassailable position on these matters.

Atheism is the most dogmatic and unprovable position.


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## Hodge (Jun 29, 2007)

Atheism is not the most dogmatic and unprovable. At least the belief in something's non-existence is based on what we've observed thus far (and even then, there are different degrees of atheism -- secular atheism being divided into the belief that there is no god and the belief that we should assume there is no god until evidence comes our way, and religious atheism just being a religion without any gods).

That said, agnosticism is the best choice. Can't rule out the possibility of there being a god or pantheon of gods, but you also shouldn't act like you know there is.


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## nobodyreal (Jun 30, 2007)

thedreamweaver said:
			
		

> It’s really late; even now I see the digital onscreen clock creep with its sly digits towards midnight. Yet I can’t sleep and somehow I don’t seem to be able to do anything but think and write – despite the fact that the capacity of my thinking and writing is painfully slim.
> 
> I feel sad and I don’t know why; desperate for something which I can’t quite hone out; sobbing inside for something lacking but which I know I’ll never find. How could I, after all, when I can’t even pinpoint exactly what it is?
> 
> ...



This is very insighful. I think you epitomized the thoughts that must go through every Atheists head.


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## Linton Robinson (Jun 30, 2007)

> Atheism is not the most dogmatic and unprovable. At least the belief in something's non-existence is based on what we've observed thus far



Contradiction backed up by nothing at all.  What a surprise.   And this from Mr.  Math.   Next time you go to school,  talk to some math guys about the difficulty of proving something as opposed to ruling a possibility out.

But I'll make it simple for you.
Three guys go into a room, then come out.  One says,  I saw a cat in there.  Second says,  I didn't see a cat.  Third guy says, there is no cat in that room.

Which argument is the most dogmatic and unprovable????  Think before you answer.  (For a change)  If you don't understand the analogy ask (for a change)

Everything you say here about the existance of intelligence rather than randomness behind reality could just as easily be said about love or orgasm by somebody who has not experienced them.
(Hmmmm,  could this be a source of your tension, snarfiness, and need for analysis?)

Most virgins tend to accept the experiences related by those who experience love and orgasms.   We would laugh our ass off at somebody who said they didn't exist because he hadn't experienced them.  And it would be REALLY fun watching them try to "prove" it.   (Their arguments would be identical to those of atheists, logically speaking)


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## Foxee (Jun 30, 2007)

Hey, Dreamweaver, here is if you're interested in playing with some more ideas. ex-atheist


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## Gorthaur (Jun 30, 2007)

lin said:
			
		

> Three guys go into a room, then come out.  One says,  I saw a cat in there.  Second says,  I didn't see a cat.  Third guy says, there is no cat in that room.



The third guy is almost completely sure the first guy is making up the nonsense about a cat. The second guy just doesn't get that there is enough evidence to make a decision.

Even strong atheists like Richard Dawkins don't completely rule out the possibility of a God, and I've never met a single person who does. They just say God is extremely improbable. And that's ignoring all the evidence that religions are human constructs, which is, of course, extremely significant. If you're familiar with the Santa Claus analogy (I'd guess you are), I'd like to hear why God is special.

And you certainly can't disprove God - that is not a strength. If anything it is a weakness.


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## Linton Robinson (Jun 30, 2007)

> If you're familiar with the Santa Claus analogy


REALLY bad analogy, and so are your arguments here.

People don't really believe in Santa Claus, not even the guy who wrote to Virginia.  People DO beleive in an intelligent order behind events and reality, many because they have personally experienced it.

By the way, the third guy has absolutely no reason or evidence to say the first guy is making up the cat.  You cooked that up (then threw in "almost" to try to try to clean it up because you're apparently the only person alive who has never heard atheist state categorically that there is nothing and even that they can prove it scientifically.)

Stick to the analogies that are more germaine, (Like mine, of course) and you might get cleared up on this thing)


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## Voodoo (Jun 30, 2007)

God's in your pants, love.

A trojan idol.

A smut savior.

Hope for good kids that you love, that's the afterlife for you.


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## Hodge (Jun 30, 2007)

lin said:
			
		

> REALLY bad analogy, and so are your arguments here.
> 
> People don't really believe in Santa Claus, not even the guy who wrote to Virginia.  People DO beleive in an intelligent order behind events and reality, many because they have personally experienced it.
> 
> ...



Kids believe in Santa Claus. Why? Because they're told to. I know you, like scientologists, don't believe in the social sciences, but luckily your belief doesn't trump the scientific method. Religion is a cultural tool, and it's plainly obvious why: because we naturally fear the unknown, and when we're able to contemplate life's big mysteries we find some big unknowns.

You also find another problem. Sure, I can't tell you you didn't experience some "higher order." By that token, you can't tell me I didn't experience another, conflicting "higher order." Nor can you tell it to the millions of others who've all experienced different universal truths. It's more likely you perceive what you want to perceive, not that anyone's experienced any kind of "higher order."


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## Gorthaur (Jun 30, 2007)

lin said:
			
		

> REALLY bad analogy, and so are your arguments here.
> 
> People don't really believe in Santa Claus, not even the guy who wrote to Virginia.  People DO beleive in an intelligent order behind events and reality, many because they have personally experienced it.



Personal experience proves nothing.



> By the way, the third guy has absolutely no reason or evidence to say the first guy is making up the cat.



As it applies to God, he does. But if you want to make your analogy that simple, it's useless. It doesn't apply to anything.



> You cooked that up (then threw in "almost" to try to try to clean it up because you're apparently the only person alive who has never heard atheist state categorically that there is nothing and even that they can prove it scientifically.)



Show me one example of this. Saying "There is no God" is completely distinct from saying "I am 100% sure it is impossible for any sort of gods to exist under any circumstances." If the kinds of atheists you've dealt with before say they can disprove God scientifically and this other nonsense, I wouldn't blame you for thinking they're idiots.


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## Zensati (Jul 1, 2007)

The way I see it. Is that the Universe runs under scientific rules, There Is a very complex design to the Universe, Theres a kind of Intelligence or set of Universal Laws that govern everything. So If their is a Complicated design that means there must have been some kind of complex energy or Intelligence to create ,design, and maintain all these complex arrangements. If you want, you could call this complex Intelligence - god.

But If their Is a God Its way beyond our understanding.


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## Voodoo (Jul 1, 2007)

So:

Its everything that's complex

we can't even begin to understand it

but we know it's complex.


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## patthager (Jul 1, 2007)

If you want to go searching for God, dont search until you fit in with other local christians, you should search until you find God.  To many people have satisfied their need for a higher power by kneeling to something wholly earthling.  You have to approach it without presumptions or peer pressure, or you will never find God.
This argument is not about religion, it is about argument.  It is not going to be won by anyone, and nooneś e-penis is going to grow


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## Voodoo (Jul 1, 2007)

Its the only way to sate that hunger, mate.


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## patthager (Jul 1, 2007)

> Its the only way to sate that hunger, mate.


There is a lot of religious literature and people out there man, and I have spent more time around them then you.  Trust me, there is some diversity


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## Voodoo (Jul 1, 2007)

Do not make your entire, sweet little digression above go to waste.

"I'm older than you, so shut up shut up."

That won't do.

By that, I didn't mean GOD>

Screw god, for all I care.

I meant, and keep up lover-

By religion, you need someone to tell you what to do.

Manson would love ya, mate.

Find your own religion.

And if you don't like them, make your own!


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## Funwriter (Jul 1, 2007)

I am not one for religion. Religion has a bad track record.


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## Linton Robinson (Jul 2, 2007)

> Kids believe in Santa Claus.


Ah, that's right, kids.   I keep forgetting Hodgikins is on this forum.  I should probably post subtitles for kids to keep him from getting itchy.  I think most people assume that questions like this assume adult attention.

Hodgy..you don't dog shit diddly dump about what I believe.  Only what filters through your unformed, overblown, insecure adoloescent drive to scream "ME!"   You have enough trouble trying to get your own beliefs across without deciding to tell others what they believe.

You REALLY need to take a logic course.   Your "as do scientolgists" crap, although semi-slyly veiled is an attempt to attack an idea by attacking the one who stated it.   Using the "you're like them" ploy (clumsily, but hey...) that is known in logical circles as an "undistributed middle term."

If you're going to go on and on about science and proof, you really need to study logic a little.  If they still even teach it.    Cut back on those unproductive sessions with your quack-ass shrink and spring for a college course that could do you some good.

Personal experience doesn't count??   Is that too fucked up for words?   Tell us what else counts, okay?
Try it again.  How do you know there is love?  How do you know there are orgasms?


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## bunnybadass (Jul 2, 2007)

personally, I think religion is religion for a reason. It is a set of common beliefs between people. There is no fact. Beliefs are what they are because there is no way to prove either way that they are true. It's like, truth doesn't need to be believed in order to be true, it just is. but a belief can never be proven to be true, which is what makes it a belief. 

God has always been a confusing issue for me. It is something not meant to be rationalized, but people try to anyway because they want to understand what religion says is not meant to be understood. But for someone who doesnt have a strong faith they want some evidence to help them believe. It's very circular and as my dad would say, 'don't confuse the issue with facts'. 

I think religion (and i think a lot of what we're talking about here is a monotheistic Christian/Catholic/Hebrew thing) is something that was meant to be personal, but has been warped into something that is sometimes forced upon us. I think it should be more personal, because it is what YOU believe. 

Atheism seems lonely to me, that there is nothing greater to believe in. But a Christian God doesnt make sense to me either, because it's so contradictory. I call myself agnostic, because i'm skeptical. Because I hate how some people will force their religion down your throat and condemn you to hell in their minds. But usually, i'm envious of people who are able to believe so strongly in something unprovable. So much so that it gives them strength. I'm not envious of fools who are blind and full of themselves in their self-righteousness where they are committing 'sinful' acts by believing they are better because they are christian, or islamic and have found THE religion. 

Again, i say, i think religion is and should be personal. Your personal set of beliefs (or lack thereof) whatever they may be. It's called a belief for a reason.
<3 bb


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## Linton Robinson (Jul 2, 2007)

Hard to argue with any of that, except that "religion" pretty much implies a group with dicta.  You can have a personal spiritual experience, but to have a "religion" pretty much means a shared code of beliefs, etc.


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## Linton Robinson (Jul 2, 2007)

I figured this thread would degenerate into a theism/atheism rally.

But my comments here were not a statement of anything, merely a message to the original poster, who is not interested in theological monkeyshines, but in her own inner questions.


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## bunnybadass (Jul 2, 2007)

lin said:
			
		

> "religion" pretty much implies a group with dicta. You can have a personal spiritual experience, but to have a "religion" pretty much means a shared code of beliefs, etc.


 
mmmm...i see what you mean...was kinda quick to lump everything under the 'religion' category...spirituality is more what i was talking about.


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## Voodoo (Jul 2, 2007)

God hates me.

I shall give him no pleasure.


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## Hodge (Jul 2, 2007)

So lin, if I study logic will you, too? Because blustering on and on about how I don't know anything rather than, you know, addressing the point, is actually a logical fallacy.


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## Voodoo (Jul 2, 2007)

You two guys are fun.

Lin calls me names, and sometimes, just sometimes, I think he doesn't mean it in a bad way.

Hodge ignores everything I interject. A blast.


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## Gorthaur (Jul 2, 2007)

lin, I admit that the Santa Claus analogy may not apply to your God at all. (It's generally a good starting point for most of the people I debate with, i.e., American Christians.) But as Hodge implied, there are countless possibilities for the form your God might take. Until it is defined, I don't see how it can be addressed.

As for personal experience - well, it's either not evidence, or it's very poor evidence. Isaac Asimov expressed my position better than I could.

"Don't you believe in flying saucers, they ask me? Don't you believe in telepathy? — in ancient astronauts? — in the Bermuda triangle? — in life after death? No, I reply. No, no, no, no, and again no. One person recently, 
goaded into desperation by the litany of unrelieved negation, burst out "Don't you believe in anything?" "Yes", I said. "I believe in evidence. I believe in observation, measurement, and reasoning, confirmed by independent observers. I'll believe anything, no matter how wild and ridiculous, if there is evidence for it. The wilder and more ridiculous something is, however, the firmer and more solid the evidence will have to be."" - Isaac Asimov


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## Zensati (Jul 2, 2007)

German Voodoo said:
			
		

> So:
> 
> Its everything that's complex
> 
> ...


 
Yes Its pointless trying to understand something as inconceivable as god. So why even bother? But we seem to have an inbuilt need to know God. Since Mankind has existed we have allways searched for a higher power. Why do we have this need for a higher power?


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## Voodoo (Jul 2, 2007)

If there's nothing else, we all end forever.


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## Zensati (Jul 2, 2007)

German Voodoo said:
			
		

> If there's nothing else, we all end forever.


 
We are Energy. Energy cannot be destroyed, It merely changes Its Form. In other words Energy Is eternal.


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## Polartch (Jul 3, 2007)

German Voodoo said:
			
		

> If there's nothing else, we all end forever.



Us in the pastafarianist religion beleive that if you serve Him well, which pretty much means dressing like a pirate on fridays, you go to heaven where there is a beer volcano and a stripper factory. If you wish to beleive....

www.venganza.org


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## Voodoo (Jul 3, 2007)

Manson with some liquor.

No thanks.


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## ladylaughalot (Jul 6, 2007)

Polartch said:
			
		

> Us in the pastafarianist religion beleive that if you serve Him well, which pretty much means dressing like a pirate on fridays, you go to heaven where there is a beer volcano and a stripper factory. If you wish to beleive....
> 
> www.venganza.org


 
Sounds like fun, how does one join this religion of yours?:-\" 

Seriously though, I personally believe (and I know many of you will get hacked off at me about this) that anyone who goes to any kind of religios meeting/ place of worship more regularly than once a week is a dangerous borderline fanatic to be avoided at all costs...

Religions are dangerous and devisive, IMHO... Spirituality on the other hand I have no problem with. I believe in a higher power, I believe in the importance of life and right versus wrong. I also believe that if there is a god, all he/she/it really wants is for us to be good people and look out for others to the best of our abilities. If there is a heaven the entrance question will not be "How many people did you convert to the one true faith?" or even "How many times did you attend a church etc?" it will be "Were you a good person?" or "How well did you live your life?"

If you focus on that I don't think you can go to far wrong... worst case scenario you end up in pergatory with the likes of Aristotle and Sophocles.. very interesting people by all accounts.

And now you will probably all understand why I never discuss religion.


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## Voodoo (Jul 6, 2007)

Ok, only problem I have with that is: "Religions are..."

They are many things, love.

Be careful that you display your IM, as well. People'll harass the hell out of you for that.

Have a nice day, I salute you for your courage.


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## ladylaughalot (Jul 6, 2007)

German Voodoo said:
			
		

> Ok, only problem I have with that is: "Religions are..."
> 
> They are many things, love.
> 
> ...


 
True Religions are many things... dangerous and devisive are only two of them and only in my opinion.

As for the IM... care to shed a little light on that, I'm not sure what that is or what you mean.


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## Voodoo (Jul 6, 2007)

Your IM is public. Seriously, beware who you show that to...

Or maybe I'm just cynical.


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## Chessrogue (Mar 19, 2008)

Seek and Ye shall find my dear friend. The truth is out there. We all have our beliefs and disbeliefs but we should always be exploring the teachings of those before us and also meditating on them to create our own viewpoint of the spiritual agenda. Your question as to whether there is a god or not may not be the question you think you need answered. Spirituality is a complex topic of discussion mainly because here on earth everything seems to be physical and is read by our earthly senses. Spirituality, on the other hand is far more difficult for us to discern since most of us are technically "spiritually disabled". You should maybe explore some Bhuddist philosophy and practice meditation to heighten your awareness of the spiritual world both inside and around us...


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## Ian (Mar 29, 2008)

_



I do feel there is something vital, something crucial, something missing from my life. Almost as if I’m pursuing something beautiful and perfect, that will complete my life, but yet – it eludes me, merely because I don’t really know its own nature

Click to expand...

_
_



life is the most overrated and yet futile activity on earth. Looking at it this way, it is wholly depressing. There is no getting away from it. No matter what we do on earth – whether we are scholars or tramps, old men or babies – we end up in the same unconscious eternity, the same infinite nothingness. 

Click to expand...

_
_



we end up in the same unconscious eternity, the same infinite nothingness. Religion tells us that death is not necessarily an end, but merely the end of a single phase. Science, ever contrary to these Sunday school, comforting views, tells us that death is just a blunt finish-line in a race that nobody wins.

Click to expand...

_

_Like you, I've spent many a night  thinking about God.  There seems to be an inate desire in all of us, we feel so vulnerable, a rudderless boat in the sea that we call life. Maybe something has been burned into our subconscience so in a way we all have a part, a real link with that Power. It seems as if our modern lives and our education maybe  getting in the way of clearer vision. _

_Modern science in the form of quantum theory  has put an end to the certainties of Newton's classical physics. The simple answer is that we don't know and that is a long way from the supposed certainty of atheism. _

_As you so rightly say life would be the most overrated and futile activity if there was nothing to it. We have been given reason and reason tells us otherwise. I think therefore I am as Descartes said. _

_Who has been there and come back to tell us about the infinite and unconscious eternity? This is an experiment that science has not yet performed and until they do we have to keep an open mind. The same applies to certain religious claims. Religion is human and God does not have to take the blame for human misdeeds. _

_When I feel like making contact within myself then I use every possible aid to connect with. The assembly of people in churches can sometimes raise the spiritual intensity where many like minded people have the same thoughts.  It could be a case of feeble mental energy waves resonating. Symbols and prayer have the same purpose I believe to raise our consciousness to the other dimension._

_On your final point on science, the latest thinking in theoretical physics is that there are many more dimensions that can be proved mathematically than the 4 ones we live in. There is also scientific speculation about parallel universes to ours. Science has grown up and now accepts that there are many things we do not know and maybe will never know. Some even say that the Universe only exists because we are here and not independent to ourselves. There seems to be a lot of magic nowadays with particles being at the same time waves and things appearing out of nothing. It's scientists who talk of black holes and tunneling to other universes. _

_I tried to raise all these questions in an entry about God that I will post on here hoping to get some input from those who have also given a lot of thought to this. _
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## NightOwl (Mar 29, 2008)

To make it relevant to the subject of God, would the cat analogy not be more accurate if it were along the lines of:

One guy belives there is a cat in the room, although he did not actually see it.
One guy is not sure whether there is a cat in the room.
One guy thinks that it is very unlikely that there is a cat in the room, given that no one saw one...

??


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