# Language Learning Speed



## popsprocket (Jul 13, 2013)

You are warped to a fantasy world where they speak a fantastically non-English language. But it's still just a language.

Assuming that there is no one around who can help translate, how quickly can you pick up that language?

Picture two groups of people meeting for the first time and wanting to communicate, how do they go about learning the other's language?


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## Outiboros (Jul 13, 2013)

It would take years.

However, you don't need to know someone's language to communicate. A bit of shared spirit, willpower and hand gestures can get you quite far.
If both groups would want to communicate, they'd perhaps each sent their smartest minds to the other group. Give those a week or so together and they could get an idea of what it is the other group wants. They would have only a first taste of each other's language, but you don't need to learn it in its entirety.


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## tony0310 (Jul 13, 2013)

The fastest way would be to introduce children to the 2 groups as they absorb language far more quickly than adults.  As an example, I had a friend who sent her daughter to a play group once a week.  The group was run by a french woman.  After about 4 weeks my friend was called in because her little girl had an accident and sliced open her finger.  When my friend got there the little one was in tears (of course) and as she was being bandaged to be taken to hospital she started telling her mother how she did it - only she said it in fluent french!  I swear this is a true story and the mother was as shocked as I was when I heard this.


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## Sandy (Jul 13, 2013)

I think it depends on how much they trust each other and/or fear each other.  If they genuinely want to communicate, sharing vocabulary might come first, then syntax and then they all groan when they have to learn grammar.  And Tony's charming story about the little girl is completely believable -- because children are so open and trusting, they learn very fast.


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## PiP (Jul 13, 2013)

popsprocket said:


> You are warped to a fantasy world where they speak a fantastically non-English language. But it's still just a language.


[FONT=&Verdana]
Living in a foreign country and in an area where English is not widely spoken by the Portuguese, it often feels as if I’ve arrived in a fantasy world! [/FONT]



popsprocket said:


> Assuming that there is no one around who can help translate, how quickly can you pick up that language?




How different is fantasy world from the homeland? 

Although we do not speak the same language we do have the same frames of reference, so I initially used mime and sign language to make myself understood. However, it is not only language you need to be aware of for social intergration, but also culture.

I am certainly more open and tactile in Portugal than I ever was in the UK. Even the strange "kissy kissy" ritual on each cheek when I greet someone or say goodbye comes naturally now. In the UK I tended to be more formal and would always shake hands. There are also mannerisms used by the locals which are different - for example the Portuguese shrug. 

In fantasyworld do facial expressions translate in the same way?

As for timescale to learn the fantasy language, without anyone to translate, it would be difficult say and would depend on the complexity of the language. Basic vocabulary using the grunt and point method probably not that long, but more structured language to hold an in depth converstaion... ?

As for meeting strangers for the first time it's all about body language and facial expressions.


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## popsprocket (Jul 13, 2013)

The basic idea is that someone from now gets warped to fantasy lands via dubiously contrived means.

As it's always bothered me that protagonists in this situation don't have any problems communicating with the people they come across, I thought it'd be amusing to put up the language barrier.

We're assuming that both parties have determined and intelligent people. The protagonist is smart and HAS to learn the language to survive, and the fantasylanders (in this story, at least) want to be able to communicate with the protag too. So they aren't just going to give up on him in under an hour when they can't make heads or tails of what he's saying.

I was kind of hoping that the protag might have established some kind of common gestures that he uses to communicate, while throwing out the occasional word of the fantasy language, and that maybe by the one month mark he could be up to super-basic conversation. You know, the kind of conversation you get in any language 101 course (hi, how are you; good thanks; what time is it - that kind of thing). We'll ignore learning to read and write the language for now.



So is 6 months to conversational understanding of the foreign language too much to hope for?

I've read around the net a bit and found a guy who was visiting countries and living there to learn the language, doing it in about 3 months with the use of some basic lessons and a phrase book. At the 3 month mark he was calling himself reasonably fluent and claiming his accent was pretty good.


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## Outiboros (Jul 14, 2013)

popsprocket said:


> The basic idea is that someone from now gets warped to fantasy lands via dubiously contrived means.
> 
> As it's always bothered me that protagonists in this situation don't have any problems communicating with the people they come across, I thought it'd be amusing to put up the language barrier.
> 
> ...


Half a year? I would believe it, though I don't know a thing about language learning.
It's a different situation if a person is surrounded ONLY by speakers of another language. It would speed up the process, I think.


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## WechtleinUns (Jul 14, 2013)

Me personally? If I can pronounce it, I can learn it pretty quickly. It would take about a month to become semifluent in the language. If my life and survival depended on learning the local vernacular, however, I'd probably be semi-fluent within a week. You'd be surprised how the possibility of death can motivate someone.

If it was a group, then it would happen more slowly. Anytime you've got a group of people that can communicate with each other, they will resist learning the language to communicate with the natives. Usually, there will be one person who will learn the language and then serve as a translator between the two groups. Depending on how badly communication is needed, that person would learn fairly quickly. A man or woman of average intelligence would achieve intermediate level communication skills within a month or two.

Although overall, the entirety of the group would learn the language more slowly. Nevertheless, it depends a lot on how badly you need to communicate. If you can get your way around, and aren't in any danger, then you'll take more time. If you wash up on an island where the inhabitants are warriors and are thinking about boiling you alive, you'll find that you'd pick things up pretty quick. 

Hope this helps. (^.^)


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## popsprocket (Jul 14, 2013)

Outiboros said:


> Half a year? I would believe it, though I don't know a thing about language learning.
> It's a different situation if a person is surrounded ONLY by speakers of another language. It would speed up the process, I think.



Believability is the key factor. And I agree, being surrounded by those who speak the language would speed up the process once you got the first weeks out of the way.



WechtleinUns said:


> Me personally? If I can pronounce it, I can learn it pretty quickly. It would take about a month to become semifluent in the language. If my life and survival depended on learning the local vernacular, however, I'd probably be semi-fluent within a week. You'd be surprised how the possibility of death can motivate someone.
> 
> If it was a group, then it would happen more slowly. Anytime you've got a group of people that can communicate with each other, they will resist learning the language to communicate with the natives. Usually, there will be one person who will learn the language and then serve as a translator between the two groups. Depending on how badly communication is needed, that person would learn fairly quickly. A man or woman of average intelligence would achieve intermediate level communication skills within a month or two.
> 
> ...



That's quicker than I'd thought but you're not wrong. Maybe even 6 months is a _long_ time to spend learning a language that one is immersed in.


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## Staff Deployment (Jul 14, 2013)

popsprocket said:


> As it's always bothered me that protagonists in this situation don't have any problems communicating with the people they come across, I thought it'd be amusing to put up the language barrier.
> 
> [. . .]
> 
> I was kind of hoping that the protag might have established some kind of common gestures that he uses to communicate, while throwing out the occasional word of the fantasy language, and that maybe by the one month mark he could be up to super-basic conversation. You know, the kind of conversation you get in any language 101 course (hi, how are you; good thanks; what time is it - that kind of thing). We'll ignore learning to read and write the language for now.



1) My way of getting around this was having the character take over someone else's body who is fluent.

2) I'd love to read a story where the protagonist can't actually speak the fantasy language and must communicate through other means. It'd be an interesting allegory to similar things happening in our own world with globalisation and whatnot.

Like drawing pictures!
Oh man now I want to do this


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## popsprocket (Jul 15, 2013)

Actually... the protag is an avid drawer and that also comes in to play later when he introduces finer paper and writing implements to an otherwise medieval world just to satisfy his desire for nice drawing utensils...

Stop it SD. Out of my head you're in my head.


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## Robert_S (Jul 16, 2013)

Start with nouns: names, numbers, objects, etc. Try to determine relationships between nouns.

If they refer to a chair as an onk, is a sofa also in the class of onk. That is, is onk the class of items referred to as furniture or the name of a specific type of furniture.

Also be aware of spacial or temporal nouns: tomorrow, today, yesterday.

Perhaps the hardest may be "be" verbs.

You'll want to determine if the language is gender based.


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## Lewdog (Aug 8, 2013)

Now this has actually taken place throughout our time.  For example when Native American tribes and English speaking settlers were forced to learn how to communicate with each other despite their languages being nowhere alike, the Native Americans being basically illiterate, and the fact that the English speaking settlers were seeing some objects for the first time and had no name for them.  The time it would take would be based on how fluent you need the MC to be.  If they just need to be able to communicate using the language with a combination of gestures, it could be done in a fairly short period of time, like a few months.  If you need them to be conversational, you might be talking a lot longer.  Then again that is also going to matter on the complexity of the language.  Some languages are a lot more complex than others, especially when it comes to tenses, verb forms, and possessiveness.

When I was going for the Cryptological Linguist program for the Marine Corps they would send people to Monterrey, California to the military language school to learn a certain language with the expectation that the soldier would become conversationally fluent within two years.  Then again that was also going to school eight hours per day five days per week.  You have to also realize, that some of the languages they expected people to learn were some of the most difficult in the world, like Chinese and Arabic.


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## Terry D (Aug 8, 2013)

Google, "learning language through immersion." You'll get plenty of good material.


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## Huginn Blue (Aug 8, 2013)

Two years is a good guess as how long it takes to learn a language in a class room (40 hours/week). 
If  you immerse someone on another culture, and this person has to talk to  survive, he will became fairly fluent in less then 6 months. 

trust me, Im brasilian and it is very commom for people here to move to US or another country to learn the language. 

The  first weeks are horrible. But after sometime, you learn simple  vocabulary, enough to greet someone, ask for help, ask simple questions  like "how do you call this"; "I dont understand"; "please explain";  "talk slowly" ... from this point on, people will start talking to you a  lot more, and your learning curve will take a shift. 

Like other people said, it also depends on the group. One person alone will learn a lot faster. A LOT. There are immigrant groups where some individuals spend their whole lives on another country and never learn the language.

I  don´t think becaming semi-fluent within a week is possible ... not if  you never had any contact with the language. Let´s say one month, for  basic vocabulary. From then on, another month or two to became quite  fluent, if he´s smart and make friends.


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## Shylock (Dec 2, 2013)

To reiterate/summarize what a lot of the above writers have said, lingual acquisition in general is extremely dependent on two things...

1- The age of the learner. Lingual comprehension is far more advanced the younger you are. My anthropology professor lived with a Chinese speaking family in Taiwan, in less than a year their four year old kid could put together basic sentences in English.

2- The differences with the speaker's native language. (It's a lot easier to learn a language with a similar grammar structure, similar script, and that has more cognates.)
 For example, 
English - "The intelligent tourist is making out with a delicious nurse."
Spanish - "El turista inteligente está haciendo con una deliciosa enfermera."
Thai - การท่องเที่ยวที่ชาญฉลาดคือการทำให้ออกมาพร้อมกับพยาบาลอร่อย

 Which do you comprehend more?

Hope this helps!


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## Guy Faukes (Dec 14, 2013)

^ What Shylock wrote, especially if the person is just before pre-teens. It's a sensitive period where you can quickly pick up language without formal training. If the person is older, than it could depend on how many languages he or she already knows (you basically can pick up languages faster if you are already adept at a few)

Also, any similarities it might have with English, on the lines of what Blue wrote, is there anyone to bridge between the two languages? Is he learning it on his own, or does he have anyone to share in the misery with? Also, how willing are the locals to deal with him on a daily basis, etc, etc


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## Morkonan (Dec 14, 2013)

Shylock said:


> To reiterate/summarize what a lot of the above writers have said, lingual acquisition in general is extremely dependent on two things...
> 
> 1- The age of the learner. Lingual comprehension is far more advanced the younger you are. My anthropology professor lived with a Chinese speaking family in Taiwan, in less than a year their four year old kid could put together basic sentences in English.
> 
> ...



Just a couple of additional comments to confirm Shylock's post:

Up to around age 8 or so, children are very linguo-pliable.  They learn language very easily and in multilingual households, they will often use both languages interchangeably. However, around this age they generally start to gravitate towards one preferred language. For them to remain truly bilingual and fluent requires constant reinforcement. If one language becomes less frequent in the household, like due to a grandparent's death, they'll likely gravitate towards the other and may even lose most of what they learned of the previous language.

It's also important to note that if a child experiences no language, or very little of it, it is almost impossible to teach them advanced language skills after the age of 12 or so. They just don't seem to be able to make many of symbolic connections necessary for higher-order language skills if they haven't been exposed to it by this age. (Keep in mind, I'm using decades-old knowledge to comment on this and recent studies may have revealed new data. This is an actively studied field by psychology, neuroscience, anthropology, linguistics.. you name the discipline and someone will have study focused on language acquisition within it.  )


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## Elvenswordsman (Dec 14, 2013)

If you give this person a linguistic background, and relate the language to one they know already, not only could it be learned quickly but it may leave opportunity for comical (or terrific) incidents of "mistaken" words.



The character from the film, 13th Warrior (played by Antonia Banderas), had a similar adventure. He would have learned it travelling from somewhere near where the Volga River reaches the Caspian Sea, to Denmark, where Hrothgar is a legendary King from that time (Note, likely taken from the Beowulf King of Scandanavian legend).

If we Google Map this, the most direct route is 575 hours walking; I'll use this as a basis, as they would have sailed indirect routes to be able to maintain water travel.

I'd assume they would travel by daylight, and hold the assumption that they could travel 12 hours a day. At this rate, this linguist (also a poet) learned Old Danish in approximately 48 days. (Note : 12 hours a day seems quite generous, as I assume it would be far less with wind, labour, and weather limitations - even lowering it to 8 hours, the journey increases to 72 days).

It's also worth noting, to speak a language at an intermediate level, one needs only know between 1000 and 1500 words. Old English at its PEAK consisted of 50-60,000 words (around the 11th century, 500 years post 13th Warrior). I'd imagine barbarians would require far fewer.

There are ways to make a relevant case. The new language is not very developed - quite simple, few words, not a great philosophical or cultural existence. The linguistic skills of the character learning the language are quite advanced. Also, I maintain that there should be some similar connection between the fantasy worlds language, and one the new learner knows. There's also opportunity for a teacher to increase the learning speed, as in the 13th Warrior no effort is made to teach the poet.

Just a few thoughts, good luck.


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## tabasco5 (Dec 16, 2013)

I would think simple communication could be accomplished fairly quickly for objects and things like that.  Simple sentences and conversational language would obviously take longer, depending on how long/often they practice, how complicated the language is, how smart the characters are, what their motivations are, etc.  There are plenty of examples where this very thing happened in the Old West--Indians and trappers, traders, priests, etc.  Dances With Wolves is a good read where this conflict is worked out.


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## dvspec (Apr 7, 2014)

Daniel Tammet learned Icelandic in a week.  He was a special case, but it gives a point of reference.  

With effort, you can be communicating in much less than a month.  Life support things (food, water, bathroom) would be established the same day or week. Living the language every day and having someone willing to teach would make communication pretty quick.

Check out Mango Languages.  It is free through my library.  It might help with some ideas.


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