# Energy=Magic?



## Stormcat (Mar 13, 2019)

> The real key word that triggers my rage is the word "energy". When people start talking about positive or negative types, for instance, negative energy — what are you talking about? What do you mean? Let's think about it, what does energy mean? Well, we know what it means, you know, energy from petrol when it's burned and moves a car and makes it move, it's like this. "This room has positive energy." Now, where the f*ck is it going, then? It's not moving. It's covering up such woolly thinking, such pathetic nonsense.
> 
> _
> 
> ...



And with those words, the great Stephen Fry opens this discussion on energy and perfectly surmises why I can't leave this plot hole in my story wide open!

My Story features magic users. Except, it's not really magic, it's controlled energy manipulation. All matter has energy, rest is even considered energy! Wikipedia has a handy little chart describing all the various types of energy as well as the various equations used to calculate said energy. I want my "magic" to be as scientific as possible, to further my Knowledge vs. Superstition motif I'm going for in this story.

My problem seems to be my writer's brain and my student's brain aren't collaborating on what exactly this energy manipulation can be used for. I've looked into various superpowers and some of them I just can't connect to any "science plus handwave", they seem too absurd! I want them to follow the laws of science, but at the same time, be just fantastic enough the casual observer would think it be magic. Can I get some help?


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 14, 2019)

In Dr Who they substitute a 'sonic screwdriver' for a wand to do the magic with, though they don't call it magic, a 'tool' of some sort might be useful, and 'superpowers' don't have to be spectacular, things like opening locked doors can be very useful. Jaunting, do you know 'Tiger tiger' ? It is being able to move yourself to a place you can visualise. Telekinesis, being able to move things from a distance, seems like a possible, but it would only look like you were doing it by thought alone. The premise of using the energy seems to lend itself to movement.


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## epimetheus (Mar 14, 2019)

Energy isn't a 'thing' in itself, but a property of matter. Change the configuration of some system of matter and you've changed the energy. Maybe do a short course in thermodynamics if you really want to abide by current scientific understanding. 

Or you could say something like magic is just energy that does not obey conservation laws (hand waving by saying scientific sounding things), making it possible to change systems of matter without putting in energy (but getting plenty of energy out).


Disagree with Mr Fry about the use of positive energy: it's not meant to convey the scientific concept of the potential to do work, but rather the psychological and behavioural effervescence associated with thinking positively. Not magic. Given its Greek root means something like active and work, it seems suitable for both.


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## Stormcat (Mar 14, 2019)

Olly Buckle said:


> In Dr Who they substitute a 'sonic screwdriver' for a wand to do the magic with, though they don't call it magic, a 'tool' of some sort might be useful, and 'superpowers' don't have to be spectacular, things like opening locked doors can be very useful. Jaunting, do you know 'Tiger tiger' ? It is being able to move yourself to a place you can visualise. Telekinesis, being able to move things from a distance, seems like a possible, but it would only look like you were doing it by thought alone. The premise of using the energy seems to lend itself to movement.



The only problem I can see with telekenesis is that air is a very poor conductor of energy, so making stuff fly around would take heaps of energy and you probably couldn't even lift items heavier than a few ounces.


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## moderan (Mar 14, 2019)

Energy can be conducted? Hey Terry D! You know about this?

https://www.explainthatstuff.com/conservation-of-energy.html

It WOULD take a lot of energy to perform telekinesis but you're already way into handwavium.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 15, 2019)

> it's controlled energy manipulation


It makes me think 'weaving energy and matter together, like weaving spells'.

Telekinesis may be difficult, but how 'super' do you want your super powers to be? Being able to abstract a small piece of paper could have a big effect on a plot line and still sound possible.


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## moderan (Mar 15, 2019)

Olly Buckle said:


> It makes me think 'weaving energy and matter together, like weaving spells'.
> 
> Telekinesis may be difficult, but how 'super' do you want your super powers to be? Being able to abstract a small piece of paper could have a big effect on a plot line and still sound possible.


In order for it to sound plausible, first one must actually understand the science. Does pitchblende contain energy?


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## Phil Istine (Mar 16, 2019)

energy is e
magic starts with m and ends with c

I'm wondering if there might be room for e=mc^2 somewhere, but with mc being something about magic.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 16, 2019)

moderan said:


> In order for it to sound plausible, first one must actually understand the science. Does pitchblende contain energy?



I don't believe this, sounding plausible is a feat that the most ignorant charlatans pull off quite regularly, and yes, everything contains energy in some form, but why did you pick on 'pitchblende' ?


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## epimetheus (Mar 16, 2019)

Well, some people still believe in a flat Earth so i guess it depends who you want to sound plausible to.


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## Solus (Mar 16, 2019)

I would need some more context to give a full answer, but an idea that I've utilized is that certain magic has been given by the gods, and as such can be almost anything. Now, if your gods are uninvolved/non-existent this might not be such a good solution, but it's an idea at least. For example, creating fire is quite simple, but detecting whether someone is lying is quite hard, because how would you define if someone is lying?. Fire is defined by its physical properties, but lying not so much. Thus, to allow for something like this I make it part of some forgotten mythology, wherein some god decided humanity needed to be able to trust itself or something like that. Also, certain people are blessed with the power of the gods to further their goals allowing them to achieve feats like creating sentient beings etc. etc.

Might be worth considering depending on what type of story you're writing, though I'd love to elaborate should I get some more context to what you are working with


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## moderan (Mar 16, 2019)

Olly Buckle said:


> I don't believe this, sounding plausible is a feat that the most ignorant charlatans pull off quite regularly, and yes, everything contains energy in some form, but why did you pick on 'pitchblende' ?



Contains radioactive ore. And I beg to differ...the plausibility that ignorant charlatans pull off is plausible only to other ignoramuses, in my view. Granted the vast herds of them ruminate in all of the lands...


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## Stormcat (Mar 16, 2019)

Solus said:


> I would need some more context to give a full answer, but an idea that I've utilized is that certain magic has been given by the gods, and as such can be almost anything. Now, if your gods are uninvolved/non-existent this might not be such a good solution, but it's an idea at least. For example, creating fire is quite simple, but detecting whether someone is lying is quite hard, because how would you define if someone is lying?. Fire is defined by its physical properties, but lying not so much. Thus, to allow for something like this I make it part of some forgotten mythology, wherein some god decided humanity needed to be able to trust itself or something like that. Also, certain people are blessed with the power of the gods to further their goals allowing them to achieve feats like creating sentient beings etc. etc.
> 
> Might be worth considering depending on what type of story you're writing, though I'd love to elaborate should I get some more context to what you are working with



There are no gods in this story, Magic is scientifically (mostly) explainable.


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## Terry D (Mar 16, 2019)

Stormcat said:


> There are no gods in this story, Magic is scientifically (mostly) explainable.



You really have only two questions to answer. Where does the source energy powering the 'magic' come from (the greater the magic, the more powerful the source needs to be), and how is the energy transmitted? To be "mostly" scientifically plausible you will need to account for the law of conservation of energy. Once you can do that you are off and running.


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## -xXx- (Mar 16, 2019)

moderan said:


> Granted the vast herds of them ruminate in all of the lands...


_*ruminates*_

something you may not have fully embraced
is happening all around you at the moment

extreme polarity
gap/arc for "natural rebalancing"

vector addition
supplied energy redirected over time

standing wave phenom
freaks people out
the same people that enjoy flutes
and saxiphones.

galloping gertie
[video=youtube;CsKKDLKYsVU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsKKDLKYsVU[/video]

and leverage.
levers are fundamental.


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## Stormcat (Mar 16, 2019)

Terry D said:


> You really have only two questions to answer. Where does the source energy powering the 'magic' come from (the greater the magic, the more powerful the source needs to be), and how is the energy transmitted? To be "mostly" scientifically plausible you will need to account for the law of conservation of energy. Once you can do that you are off and running.



The energy in this story comes from the energy that already exists all around us. from the potential energy of the coffee cup next to your computer to the radiation energy beamed down upon us from the sun.

As for the transmission, the magic-users can convert the energy forms with their minds to whatever form it needs to be. Convert kinetic energy from your foot tapping into electrical energy to power your phone, that sort of thing.


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## Terry D (Mar 17, 2019)

Stormcat said:


> The energy in this story comes from the energy that already exists all around us. from the potential energy of the coffee cup next to your computer to the radiation energy beamed down upon us from the sun.
> 
> As for the transmission, the magic-users can convert the energy forms with their minds to whatever form it needs to be. Convert kinetic energy from your foot tapping into electrical energy to power your phone, that sort of thing.



Then I would suggest you not worry about the scientific plausibility of the story and write it as a fantasy. "Tapping into the energy all around us" just using one's mind isn't a scientific notion. For instance, should one of your characters 'tap into' the potential energy of that cup you mentioned, what happens to the cup?


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## moderan (Mar 17, 2019)

It depends on whether or not it is half-full, half-empty, or Schrodinger's Cup balanced on Occam's Razor.


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## moderan (Mar 17, 2019)

https://www.tor.com/2019/03/14/why-does-no-one-in-sff-ever-read-the-damn-manual


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## Stormcat (Mar 17, 2019)

Terry D said:


> Then I would suggest you not worry about the scientific plausibility of the story and write it as a fantasy. "Tapping into the energy all around us" just using one's mind isn't a scientific notion. For instance, should one of your characters 'tap into' the potential energy of that cup you mentioned, what happens to the cup?



hmm... I suppose the potential energy could only be converted into kinetic energy, and the cup would either fly around the room or explode.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 18, 2019)

Stormcat said:


> hmm... I suppose the potential energy could only be converted into kinetic energy, and the cup would either fly around the room or explode.



Both of those need energy, if you are robbing the cup of energy for another purpose, like charging your phone, wouldn't it simply crumble as the forces holding it together were take away? If the cup is sitting on a high shelf there is potential energy, knock it off and it converts to kinetic which causes it to break when it hits the floor, the amount taken up 'flying' is minimal.


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## Terry D (Mar 18, 2019)

Actually there's no such thing as 'potential energy'. That's a calculation based on an object's physical properties and the amount of energy potential varies based on what sort of energy it could be converted into. Form instance, you can look at the cup's mass and the height of the shelf and calculate the amount of kinetic energy that would be released if it fell. That calculation would be different if the cup was on a higher, or lower, shelf, but nothing changes in the cup itself. It has no more intrinsic energy just because you move it. Likewise, based on the materials the cup is made out of it has a certain potential to release heat energy if it were burned (again, based on the material the cup is made from it might take far more heat to burn it than would be released). If the mass of the cup were somehow converted into energy (say by coming in contact with an equal mass of anti-matter) it would release energy based on the calculation E=MC2. In that respect every bit of matter has a potential to generate energy, but no hidden reserve of energy that can be tapped without some sort of conversion taking place.

The answer to my question is, the cup would need to disappear. Poof! Gone. Which actually is a pretty fair solution to the problem. If your magic users somehow had the ability to convert mass into energy via E=MC2, they would have access to tremendous power. A small task would require the sacrifice of a small amount of matter, say a button or a small stone, but a major task might require the conversion of a larger, denser object like a gold candlestick.


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## -xXx- (Mar 18, 2019)

Stormcat said:


> The energy in this story comes from the energy that already exists all around us. from the potential energy of the coffee cup next to your computer to the radiation energy beamed down upon us from the sun.
> 
> As for the transmission, the magic-users can convert the energy forms with their minds to whatever form it needs to be. Convert kinetic energy from your foot tapping into electrical energy to power your phone, that sort of thing.


right *tool* for the job.
transducer.
there's reasons for the bags,
staffs,
etc.
jussayin'


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## epimetheus (Mar 18, 2019)

Terry D said:


> Actually there's no such thing as 'potential energy'...



Potential energy is as 'real' as kinetic or heat energy. They are all defined in terms of their potential to do work (at least classically)and all are a property of a system by virtue of its configuration.


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## Terry D (Mar 18, 2019)

epimetheus said:


> Potential energy is as 'real' as kinetic or heat energy. They are all defined in terms of their potential to do work (at least classically)and all are a property of a system by virtue of its configuration.



Not really. I can measure heat (temperature) or kinetic energy (force), but I cannot measure potential energy. It is a calculation. That's because potential energy doesn't exist within an object, it exists within a system. A cup on a shelf contains no intrinsic energy in the absence of gravity, or motion. So, for the purposes of the OP you can't 'tap into' potential energy.


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## Stormcat (Mar 18, 2019)

Terry D said:


> The answer to my question is, the cup would need to disappear. Poof! Gone. Which actually is a pretty fair solution to the problem. If your magic users somehow had the ability to convert mass into energy via E=MC2, they would have access to tremendous power. A small task would require the sacrifice of a small amount of matter, say a button or a small stone, but a major task might require the conversion of a larger, denser object like a gold candlestick.



This makes sense, and I think you've helped me figure out where the "missing" energy comes from (not to mention this provides a good way for them to dispose of garbage).

now my problem is, what sort of tasks can the magic-users do with this newfound energy?


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## epimetheus (Mar 19, 2019)

Terry D said:


> Not really. I can measure heat (temperature) or kinetic energy (force), but I cannot measure potential energy. It is a calculation. That's because potential energy doesn't exist within an object, it exists within a system. A cup on a shelf contains no intrinsic energy in the absence of gravity, or motion. So, for the purposes of the OP you can't 'tap into' potential energy.



I think you may be right, i need to look this up a little: i'll count it as 'story research'.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 19, 2019)

epimetheus said:


> I think you may be right, i need to look this up a little: i'll count it as 'story research'.



He is right, Potential energy comes from the position of the object and is not actual energy until it is released. The apple hanging in the tree has potential energy, when it breaks free from the tree it shows the energy in the form of motion, and when it hits Newton on the head this is converted into sound and heat, but as long as it is in the tree this is only a potential.


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## Stormcat (Mar 21, 2019)

hokay, so I'm reading This Blog Post about making a rational magic system and it includes a bit about "scientific" magic systems. For those who don't feel like clicking on the link, it includes a bit at the end which says: (paraphrased) "The magic system doesn't have to be totally scientific, but totally logical and consistent."

So far, based on *Terry D's* suggestion, the "cost" of the magical energy is the amount of matter needed to convert into energy (which vanishes upon consumption). Now I need to figure out an approximate "scale of power". I guess going back to scientific laws could help, but to my knowledge there aren't any that deal with the direct conversion of matter to energy.


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## epimetheus (Mar 23, 2019)

Olly Buckle said:


> He is right, Potential energy comes from the position of the object and is not actual energy until it is released. The apple hanging in the tree has potential energy, when it breaks free from the tree it shows the energy in the form of motion, and when it hits Newton on the head this is converted into sound and heat, but as long as it is in the tree this is only a potential.



Not had a chance to dust off those old mechanics books, but i don't think it's so simple (or maybe i'm over-complicating it!).

My problem is with the idea of 'actual' energy, implying potential energy isn't something real. 



Stormcat said:


> I guess going back to scientific laws could help, but to my knowledge there aren't any that deal with the direct conversion of matter to energy.



Mass to energy conversion, where mass is a property of matter (given by the Higgs field i believe).


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## gene (Mar 23, 2019)

Life is magic, everything else is energy. I know this doesn't help, but it is all I got.


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## sailorguitar (Mar 23, 2019)

Somebody has probably already said this, but a quick response to your question knee jerks a response. Energy does not go away or turn good or bad. It does change state depending on the forces acting on it.


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