# My wife's reaction.



## The Tourist (Oct 26, 2013)

Many times we get bogged down in debates on various minor topics, but it's nice to examine what the written word means to people.

I shared this story with Pandi this morning as my wife and I began the day.  I was corresponding here and reading Pandora's poetry aloud as my wife was paying the weekly invoices.  As I came to a logical pause, I chanced to glance over at my wife, who was openly weeping.

Most of us have been moved by Pandi's lines.  However, my wife is not the creative writing type.  Frankly, her entertainment is either the latest bestseller (sold by the metric ton) or situation comedies.  Yet, less than a dozen lines from a poet my wife had never read reduced her to that powerful emotion.

We kibitz here, we spar, we challenge, we divide.  I wish you all could have been in my breakfast nook this morning when the real power of literary creation made its presence felt.

And to that end, please read Pandi as often as you can.  I hate poetry, or least, I did.


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## Gumby (Oct 26, 2013)

Poetry is an especially wonderful way for us to connect with what we are feeling or holding, inside. The amazing thing about poetry is that the same poem takes each reader on a somewhat different journey, depending on where they are in life, and where they have been.

I'm glad you have discovered a poet who touches you and your wife so deeply.


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## Lewdog (Oct 26, 2013)

Isn't it funny how sometimes people ask us how we feel, and we quip back that we can't put it into words?  Not only are we telling a lie to others, but we aren't being true to our self.  It's all out there for the taking, we just have to let our feelings overwhelm us, so we can find the right things to say.


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## Kevin (Oct 26, 2013)

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to The Tourist again.


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## The Tourist (Oct 26, 2013)

Gumby said:


> I'm glad you have discovered a poet who touches you and your wife so deeply.



If I make any impression with this thread it's that good writing is good writing no matter where you find it.  As I stated, I'm not a poetry guy.  I'm more comfortable with a dwell meter than iambic penta-meter.

I felt more emotional attachment to those dozen lines of poetry than I've felt in tomes by many big name authors.


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## Lewdog (Oct 26, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> If I make any impression with this thread it's that good writing is good writing no matter where you find it.  As I stated, I'm not a poetry guy.  I'm more comfortable with a dwell meter than iambic penta-meter.
> 
> I felt more emotional attachment to those dozen lines of poetry than I've felt in tomes by many big name authors.



I totally understand what you are saying.  There will always be people that will go to the grocery store, and buy name-brand products no matter what, even though they cost more than the generic.  While some generics taste just as good, and are much cheaper, all those people are doing is hurting themselves, they will never know what they are missing.


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## Morkonan (Oct 27, 2013)

For me, there's three classes of "Poetry."

There's your Shakespeare.. The simple flow of words, a natural cadence, each word chosen precisely, perfectly, expressing in aggregate the one pure thought that only such a unique combination of words could possibly accomplish. Yeah, it's prose, but it's Poetry to my ears. So, that's one.

The next is that rare combination of verses that somehow manages, despite its vulgar form, to evoke. Poetry evokes, that's its purpose. Whether its an uncontrollable flood of impossible emotion or a jolting, horror-struck fear, it evokes. To me, that's true Poetry in its most raw form and it's exceptionally rare. Reading true Poetry is entirely an emotional experience, not bound by the constraints of higher thought. When reading true Poetry, you will forget your light bill. You will have to be reminded to eat and to bathe yourself. At its most intense, you will forget to breath. Find it and you'll know it. 

The last is the emotional hand-waving and flailing about of most poetry, saying very little, but demanding that you acknowledge its mastery of whatever subject its examining. Its as if by its simple existence in the written form, it lays claim to some greater attribute, declaring itself "Poetry" and, therefore, being required to have its status elevated from a jumbled collection of nonsensical themes cavorting about an unlikely subject to a true modern art masterpiece... "_I am Poetry and demand you provide me the respect I am due!_" Somewhere, the thought of teaching that Poem to deserve its respect was never considered by its creator.

It's that last sort that I find, all too often. It's left me jaded on the whole idea of "Poetry." All melodramaticky an' stuffs... with little substance and much less craft. So, I read prose, the old-fashioned stuff. The words, the beat, the careful interplay of subtle evocations of the Reader's emotions... Yeah, that's the magic for me.


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## The Tourist (Oct 27, 2013)

Morkonan, we are truly brothers of another mother!  I read your last post aloud to me wife and we were ROTFLOAO!  I especially liked the inflated version demanded to be respected!  It sounded like your average whiny little kid with no life experiences but demanding to tell you how to act!  

Your comments come on the heels of an exchange with another WF member on poetry.  Some of it I get, and some of the supposed "good stuff" bounces off of me.  I told the member I was going to look for a "Poetry For Dummies" reference book at B&N today.


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## Morkonan (Oct 27, 2013)

I'm a chameleon, of sorts, I suppose. I'm no Everyman, but there's enough within me to touch some of that. 

Long ago, in English Lit, we were force-fed Poetry and it wasn't too bad. After all, you had a professor there who was paid to explain it all to you. Isn't that a kicker? There are actually people that Universities hire to explain poetry to students. Heck, I hear they even do that with novels, of all things! I get that some things are culturally bound to their time. That's true of most of what humans create - Few things are timeless. But, I have to ask this of Poets:

If a poem needs to be explained, shouldn't that be a failed poem?

Most poets understand that and don't craft poetry that can't reasonably be understood. But, not all, oh no... No, some of them demand that you must comprehend what they wrote instead of having to write for comprehension. I'm all up on metaphor, simile and symbolism, I can be hit with them from all sides and still come out of it reasonably intact. But, if I read some blockbuster of a poem and end up with that "_WTF did I just eat_" expression on my face, something is wrong. I have a very shallow ego, not even deep enough to get a duck wet. But, I know when I know that I know... I've been rooked!

If I have to write for comprehension, then Poets must write for it as well! Yes, I will allow them to write to evoke, alone, but that's the limit, else I'm gonna sue someone for imposing unfair standards! Comprehension? Evocation? Got it? Good! Both are missing? It's on the bottom of the bird cage, when I buy a bird, or else in the trunk to be used the next time I get stuck in the mud or snow. Yeats was Yeats 'cause he was goshdarned Yeats! Nobody has a right to his crown, just because they're trodding in his throne-room.


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## The Tourist (Oct 27, 2013)

Morkonan, I just sent my first poem to Pandi in a PM.  She'll cut it up, correct it, hopefully sift out the trite parts and give me some direction.  Then we'll toss it into an open flame and pretend it never happened.

But here's the good thing.  I wrote a poem.  Me.  That's got to be a breakthrough--I hope...


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## Gumby (Oct 27, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Morkonan, I just sent my first poem to Pandi in a PM.  She'll cut it up, correct it, hopefully sift out the trite parts and give me some direction.  Then we'll toss it into an open flame and pretend it never happened.
> 
> But here's the good thing.  I wrote a poem.  Me.  That's got to be a breakthrough--I hope...



Does that mean we won't be seeing it on the poetry board?  

Seriously, congratulations! I love it when I see that someone who never thought they'd be caught dead reading, much less writing poetry, has come over to the dark side. Pandi deserves the credit for that, she did good.


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## escorial (Oct 27, 2013)

The Tourist you can make me cry dude.


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## The Tourist (Oct 27, 2013)

Gumby said:


> Does that mean we won't be seeing it on the poetry board?



Gumby, it's partially _your fault_.

I was talking to Pandi about her poem on evil and your poem about incest.  In talking to my wife she related that these are hot button issues for girls and women.

It got me thinking--and I hate that...

I proffered that the "rite of passage" would be a parallel topic for a boy.  So I penned a "thank you" to my first enemy.  Yeah, yeah, most likely doggerel to you pros and award winners, but then you have to start somewhere.


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## Gumby (Oct 27, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> but then you have to start somewhere.



Absolutely. I'm just glad you started, I think you could bring a unique voice to poetry, if you stick with it.


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## Kevin (Oct 27, 2013)

> If a poem needs to be explained, shouldn't that be a failed poem?


 Nope...perhaps it fails for that reader, or for all readers. It is art, not an instruction manual. Standard prose is a form...boundaries...limiting, stifling...(did you need those extra words?  )



> ...."rite of passage" would be a parallel topic for a boy. So I penned a "thank you" to my first enemy. Yeah, yeah, most likely doggerel to you pros and award winners, but then you have to start somewhere.


 Come on then...show us your knickers. Post...


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## The Tourist (Oct 27, 2013)

Kevin said:


> Come on then...show us your knickers. Post...



Okay, okay, here's a little in hint.

I don't use the word "knickers" or any other word from before 1830.

Hark and forsooth...


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## Pandora (Oct 28, 2013)

:love_heart:  Bless her heart


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## Sam (Oct 28, 2013)

Some people simply don't get poetry. I am one of them. It has nothing to do with the poetry itself -- it's all me. I am, and forever will be, a lover of prose. It speaks to me in a way that poetry has never been able to emulate. In a single quatrain, a poet can evoke almost every emotion and image known to man. But in a single sentence of prose, a writer can take your breath away and pull you into his/her world with aplomb. I personally have never read a poem that made me want keep reading no matter what. I have encountered hundreds of novels that have. 

That is not to denigrate poetry or poets. Just my own experiences over the years.


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## The Tourist (Oct 28, 2013)

Sam said:


> Some people simply don't get poetry. I am one of them.



Sam, two weeks ago I would have said the same thing.  I ask you only one thing--open up to the possibilities.

To me, poems were the flowery renditions of gazing into your navel.  But I know you've been moved by a song, and that's a story, too, isn't it?

Once I just opened up a little bit I began perusing the forum for other good works in poetry.  I happened upon news of Gumby's award and I sought out the poem itself.  The first time I read it, it bounced off of me.

My wife was in the room, and I read her Gumby's poem.  She offered that my problem was that I wasn't a girl and might not have empathy for the issue depicted.  We had an open discussion--on poetry.

So there I sat, unshaven, unrepentant biker with a P238 on his hip discussing themes, and women, and finding deeper meaning in the examination of life, pain and evil.

And then it hit me.  Poetry is powerful dynamite.  It's pouring out your soul into raw, unfiltered gulps for any voyeur to witness.

Give it another shot, Sam.  I'm very glad I did.


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## Morkonan (Oct 28, 2013)

Kevin said:


> Nope...perhaps it fails for that reader, or for all readers. It is art, not an instruction manual. Standard prose is a form...boundaries...limiting, stifling...(did you need those extra words?  )...



In my opinion, Art shouldn't have to be interpreted by its target audience. I understand that those outside the target audience may need some help - The Artist can't plan for everything.

However, if that is true, then it applies to all Art, writing and poetry included. Novels can have subtleties that are hard to catch and there may be some metaphors that fly over the Reader's head. But, in the larger sense, if the novel has any targeted theme, it should be able to be directly interpreted by the target Reader. In the end, it's all about communication. If one fails to communicate, it doesn't matter what one produces - Nobody will hear the message. I don't see how there could be someone called a "Poet" that writes poetry, meant to be consumed by others, who just churns out stuff that nobody can understand. (I don't have any difficulty understanding Poetry, myself. But I do have difficulty in digesting poetry that's deliberately indecipherable...  )

It might be that some Poets wish to be "Puzzle Masters", producing verbal puzzles for a select target audience.

What are the common "Categories" of Poetry, by flavor/intent/style/whatever? (I don't mean meter or other such physical structure.)


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## PiP (Oct 28, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> And then it hit me.  Poetry is powerful dynamite.  It's pouring out your soul into raw, unfiltered gulps for any voyeur to witness.
> .



That's the best answer to the question "What is Poetry?" I've read to date 

I really enjoyed your first poem.




Morkonan said:


> In the end, it's all about communication. If  one fails to communicate, it doesn't matter what one produces - Nobody  will hear the message. I don't see how there could be someone called a  "Poet" that writes poetry, meant to be consumed by others, who just  churns out stuff that nobody can understand. (I don't have any  difficulty understanding Poetry, myself. But I do have difficulty in  digesting poetry that's deliberately indecipherable... :smile: )
> 
> It might be that some Poets wish to be "Puzzle Masters", producing verbal puzzles for a select target audience.



I enjoy writing poetry and want the poems I write to appeal to a wider audience, not just to the "select" few.

I read somewhere that "poetry can be whatever you want it to be. If you  wrote a shopping list and called it a poem, it was a poem; whether it  was a good poem or not was debatable."


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## Kevin (Oct 28, 2013)

I don't think about a target audience, not one little bit. I just try to pick the right words and put them in the right order.  I don't write pop, at least I don't think it's pop. I don't care; I couldn't even if I tried, or maybe I could, but I don't care to try. Everything I write has meaning; it's not gibberish (unless it's meant to be). It's also not a popularity contest; it's how I see things and that's what I write. If people get it, great, we've bonded. If not, so be it. On to the next one.


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## Pandora (Oct 29, 2013)

Kevin said:


> It's also not a popularity contest; it's how I see things and that's what I write. If people get it, great, we've bonded. If not, so be it. On to the next one.


perfectly put


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## The Tourist (Oct 29, 2013)

+1

But then, shouldn't we be living our entire lives by that standard?  Yeah, you might get flamed, but that a paltry price.  

And it's usually from a guy on his mom's Suzuki...


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## Morkonan (Oct 31, 2013)

Kevin said:


> I don't think about a target audience, not one little bit. I just try to pick the right words and put them in the right order.  I don't write pop, at least I don't think it's pop. I don't care; I couldn't even if I tried, or maybe I could, but I don't care to try. Everything I write has meaning; it's not gibberish (unless it's meant to be). It's also not a popularity contest; it's how I see things and that's what I write. If people get it, great, we've bonded. If not, so be it. On to the next one.



But, can't you do all that while paying attention to your target audience, arranging all that you have to say, all those "right words", in an "order" that is engaging, entertaining, pleasing and readily understood? Wouldn't that greatly increase your chances of success at communicating the meaning of what you have written?


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## The Tourist (Oct 31, 2013)

Morkonan said:


> But, can't you do all that while paying attention to your target audience, arranging all that you have to say, all those "right words", in an "order" that is engaging, entertaining, pleasing and readily understood? Wouldn't that greatly increase your chances of success at communicating the meaning of what you have written?



No, you cannot.  The moment you even admit to yourself that "there is someone else out there" you take your eye off the ball.  Whether we're writing, or just waxing the floor, the focus at that defining moment must be to complete the task in its most perfect form.

There is no such thing as "multi tasking."  That's simply doing a crappy job on two things.

Besides, in any life there's going to be more predators, flamers, hacks and thieves than there will be people who get where you are.  If it's a poem or a knife edge, shouldn't we have a little respect for the guys that matter and do the best job we can?


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## Kevin (Oct 31, 2013)

> entertaining, pleasing and readily understood


 I guess I do have a 





> target audience


 I equate obvious with oblivious. Okay, not always... but I like 'digging for the underlying'. To me , that _is _entertaining.


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## Brock (Oct 31, 2013)

Kevin said:


> Nope...perhaps it fails for that reader, or for all readers. It is art, not an instruction manual. Standard prose is a form...boundaries...limiting, stifling...(did you need those extra words?  )
> 
> Come on then...show us your knickers. Post...



I don't write poetry, but a lot of times I like to leave things understated and leave interpretation to the reader (it bugs me that I had to use the word 'leave' twice in that sentence).  Done correctly, this can be much more magnetic for the reader than laying it all out in plain sight.


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## Morkonan (Nov 3, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> No, you cannot.  The moment you even admit to yourself that "there is someone else out there" you take your eye off the ball.  Whether we're writing, or just waxing the floor, the focus at that defining moment must be to complete the task in its most perfect form.



In its most perfect form, writing that is meant to be read must take into account the prospective Reader. To do anything that does not include this is nonsensical.



> There is no such thing as "multi tasking."  That's simply doing a crappy job on two things.



Respectively, and I do mean that sincerely, this can't be more further from the truth. It's not even wrong... There is no separation between writing fiction and writing something to be read. Poetry, in my opinion, is no less. You don't write something that is meant to be read by someone else and then "multitask" in order to achieve that. That's nonsense, in my opinion.



> Besides, in any life there's going to be more predators, flamers, hacks and thieves than there will be people who get where you are.  If it's a poem or a knife edge, shouldn't we have a little respect for the guys that matter and do the best job we can?



Who matters? What job is it that you're trying to do? What's all this about predators, flamers, hacks and thieves? What does that have to do with writing?

In my opinion, and its not obviously shared very widely, here, "Writing" is not about jotting down my personal notes, in some sort of mentally _self-stimulating_ way, for my own pleasure. That includes poetry, by the way.

If someone wants to write what amounts to gibberish, that's fine. But, they can do that on their own time and should never expect anyone to want to read it. If they're fine with that, more power to them. But, they should never have any realistic expectations of being published, of anyone waiting in line to risk hard-earned money on backing the mass-printing and distribution of their work.

If one wants to create something that can be digestible by the other people, whether it's fiction, poetry, pottery or painting, one has to create with that in mind. In fact, all of these artful forms of creation revolve around doing just that - Creating for the consumer. That's not a bad thing, by the way. In fact, it keeps all the crap that has been created "just 'cause I felt like it" from being mistaken for "art."


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## The Tourist (Nov 3, 2013)

Morkonan, the first thing I ask myself in any pursuit is, _"Would you pay for this?  Is this of value?" _

If it's not, I re-write it or re-polish it.

It's not an outmoded way of doing things.  Heck, the greatest instructor of our time, *Yoda*, poked Luke in the chest with a walking stick and admonished him for not paying attention to what he was doing.  Ever take you eye off the ball in a dojo?

I don't see why writing should be judged by any other standard.


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## Morkonan (Nov 5, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> ...I don't see why writing should be judged by any other standard.



I agree.

It's only that I disagree that writing "Fiction" and "Writing something with the intent to be read by someone else" is, in fact, the same thing. There's no "extra step" necessary in producing a work of fiction. There would be, however, an extra step in writing something purely for oneself, then attempting to transform it into something suitable to be read by someone else. Why start out with only half what is necessary to produce a work of fiction by mistakenly choosing to write only for oneself? It's a simple matter to start from the perspective of producing a work meant to be read by others, instead of starting some mental exercise which involves writing down words in succession until they sum to the length of a full novel...


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