# Is this character weak in this way, that was pointed out?



## ironpony (Oct 18, 2021)

My story is a crime thriller.  The main character wants revenge on these villains, who keep getting away with their crimes, and the MC's wife, doesn't want him to do down the revenge path, and doesn't want him to get killed or end up in jail, so she tries to stop him.  But her trying to stop him makes things worse as she is also put in danger and the villains are able to use her as bargaining chip later.   This causes more consequences for the MC to suffer as a result of his revenge.

However, I was told by a couple of readers that they do not like the MC's wife as a character and think she is poorly written, because as a woman, she has no goals of her own, and everything she does is of a reaction to a male character.  But if I were to give her own goals of her own, apart from the main plot, wouldn't it come off as an unneccessary subplot though?  Wouldn't readers think what does her having to reach this goal of hers, have anything to do with the MC seeking revenge on the villains?

I want to create a three dimensional character, but at the same time, I don't want to create subplots that do not have anything to do with the main plot.  Unless that's not possible?  Thanks for any advice on this!  I really appreciate it!


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## Lawless (Oct 19, 2021)

ironpony said:


> because as a woman, she has no goals of her own, and everything she does is of a reaction to a male character


My advice is not to pay attention to such feminist nonsense and write your characters in a way that fits your story.


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## NajaNoir (Oct 19, 2021)

She's your character.  You already know how you want to write her. If you go out of your way and add a plotline for  her that you don't want to,  it'll feel forced,  and readers will know.

Better to write her how you see her.  Then, once done, you can always tweak things around and add or take away small things. And small suggestions. But, as YOU see fit. Not how others see it.

They can write their own stories.


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## VRanger (Oct 19, 2021)

My advice is that if after SIX PLUS YEARS into this project, you don't even know who your characters are yet, it's time to mark it down to experience and try something new.

Plus, most of your posts indicate you are blown like a leaf in the wind by what this and that person says. You simply CANNOT complete a readable project like that. Write what you want, write THE END, and move on. As I've discussed, should you ever actually sell this screenplay, by the time the director's writer gets through with it, you won't recognize virtually anything you wrote, anyway.


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## ironpony (Oct 20, 2021)

Oh well it's just I want the story to be good, so shouldn't I take reader's advice if I want it to be though?  Otherwise how do you know if it is or not?


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## JBF (Oct 20, 2021)

ironpony said:


> ...shouldn't I take reader's advice...



Yes.  To a point.  But at the end of the day this is still _your _story.  You're the captain.  Run the boat.  

As it stands (others can correct me if I'm mistaken) none of us have seen word one of this story.  That being the case, you aren't getting reader feedback - you're asking us to play a midnight game of lawn darts; nobody can see what's happening, it's all guesswork, and somebody's probably going to the hospital before it's all over.  



ironpony said:


> Otherwise how do you know if it is or not?



1) You figure out the story you want to tell.  That's the _You _you, not the figurative.  Your story, your execution, your style.  
2) You write the damn thing
3) It sucks
4) You improve until it doesn't suck

Members here are pretty generous with time and advice.  But patience is a finite thing, and many take offense (even if they don't voice it) when they feel their time is wasted because:

* It isn't their responsibility to plot your story, or establish your characters, or tell you if curtains in the MC's girlfriend's cousin's house are the wrong color, or provide you with accurate technical detail that gets scrubbed in next week's iteration.  *

Nobody else here can execute your project for you.  Either you do it, or it doesn't get done.  

You.  

_YOU.  _

If _YOU _don't have the vision and the grit to invest in this thing it's not going to happen.  Nobody here is going to nursemaid your genius to its ultimate fruition because we all have projects of our own that require time, research, and commitment.  Moreover, some of us have to schedule in between other obligations, and it is a _flagrant_ show of disrespect to expect _anybody _to burn their own writing time for _your _project when _you yourself _can't seem to figure out what's going on.  

If you want the story, earn it.  Figure it out.  Suck it up.  Get it done.  

Or else let it go.


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## PiP (Oct 20, 2021)

Come on Iron Pony, I know you can do it... unplug the WiFi and JUST write  .


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## Mark Twain't (Oct 20, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh well it's just I want the story to be good, so shouldn't I take reader's advice if I want it to be though?  Otherwise how do you know if it is or not?


You could ask 20 different readers and get 20 different answers. The more you ask, the less likely you are ever going to write the damned thing.

To borrow a slogan from a well known sportswear company, *JUST DO IT!*


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## apple (Oct 20, 2021)

I think writing a screenplay or story is to try to make *each* character you introduce into your story, interesting and important, no matter how large or insignificant the part.  That doesn't necessarily mean creating a sub-story or plotline, It helps me visualize them, give me glimpses of the character. action. Written in for flavor.  For example,  (a finely dressed man steps out of a Limo and spots a penny on the ground, picks it up, and puts it in his pocket.) This action might tell us a lot about this man.  The wife in your story could, maybe, be brought to more vibrancy with, color, personality, and life, by *showing* us who she is from speaking subtleties to personality quirks, (and lots of action verbs.) especially when relating to hubby. lol, I know that when writing a screenplay there should be two, maybe three sub-plotlines going, but not bouncing around all on their own inside the story but leading to the same end.   
So, I haven't put my two cents worth of advice on this thread in a long, long time.  I hope you can understand what I mean. The wife in your story can be a magnificent character, playing her own part with verve and energy. No need for her life story.  My best to you.  Keep writing.


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## ironpony (Oct 20, 2021)

That's true, all the opinions are different, but how do you  know if it's good though, or if it has an audience?  Do you just take the risk and go for it, and that's all you can do without possibly knowing anymore?


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## Ajoy (Oct 21, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Do you just take the risk and go for it, and that's all you can do without possibly knowing anymore?


It's not really a risk to write your complete idea without the influence of others. Ask for feedback once you have something complete to share. Until then, you're really not ready to take in the opinions of others. From what I've seen, you've been stuck in an advice seeking loop which seems to be keeping you from progressing on your project. This doesn't surprise me because you are getting tons of different opinions on vague descriptions of your ideas. That would be confusing. Trust yourself enough to write out your first draft. There's no risk to that.


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## Travalgar (Oct 21, 2021)

ironpony said:


> My story is a crime thriller.  The main character wants revenge on these villains, who keep getting away with their crimes, and the MC's wife, doesn't want him to do down the revenge path, and doesn't want him to get killed or end up in jail, so she tries to stop him.  But her trying to stop him makes things worse as she is also put in danger and the villains are able to use her as bargaining chip later.   This causes more consequences for the MC to suffer as a result of his revenge.
> 
> However, I was told by a couple of readers that they do not like the MC's wife as a character and think she is poorly written, because as a woman, she has no goals of her own, and everything she does is of a reaction to a male character.  But if I were to give her own goals of her own, apart from the main plot, wouldn't it come off as an unneccessary subplot though?  Wouldn't readers think what does her having to reach this goal of hers, have anything to do with the MC seeking revenge on the villains?
> 
> I want to create a three dimensional character, but at the same time, I don't want to create subplots that do not have anything to do with the main plot.  Unless that's not possible?  Thanks for any advice on this!  I really appreciate it!


Everything you write needs to be meaningful. To that end, the characters in your story can be in any number of dimensions as you see fit. What matters is not how the individual components of your story performs in isolation, but how the whole story comes together as the result.

Don't ask for advice on a single part of your incomplete story. Finish your story, and *then *ask for perspectives on it.


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## ironpony (Oct 21, 2021)

Oh but I thought it was complete though as I have written out the entire story.


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## VRanger (Oct 21, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh but I thought it was complete though as I have written out the entire story.


Nothing is complete that you wallow in this much anguish about. It SHOULD have been complete years ago.

Unless: You're casting a net for a hypothetical producer who might be browsing through WF looking for a screenplay by a writer who can't make up his mind, can't finish, and spends all his time fretting over trivialities when he should be studying the basics of writing. I refer to my critique of your sample from May 2020.


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## ironpony (Oct 21, 2021)

Oh but okay but I didn't think they were trivialities if people had a problem with it, unless I am wrong, and people were making too much of it?


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## Travalgar (Oct 21, 2021)

I think what you need is a beta reader. Someone who could read your whole story in its entirety to be able to give you a more comprehensive critique of it, from the point of view of an average reader.

You don't judge an elephant by having eight blind men touching its eight different body parts.


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## PiP (Oct 21, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh but okay but I didn't think they were trivialities if people had a problem with it, unless I am wrong, and people were making too much of it?







"vhat you talkin' about?Ze only 'people' dat 'ave a pwoblem vith it is you."





I mean this in the nicest possible way ... this is what you are doing.


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## Ajoy (Oct 21, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh but I thought it was complete though as I have written out the entire story.


I apologize for assuming you were not finished with your draft. It sounds like outside opinions are still pulling you in too many directions to progress to a point where you feel you can call your work finished though.


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## ironpony (Oct 22, 2021)

Well I was told there are some problems with the story, so I would still like to fix them if possible, but only want to improve.  But I don't want to go into too many directions for sure.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Oct 22, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh well it's just I want the story to be good, so shouldn't I take reader's advice if I want it to be though?  Otherwise how do you know if it is or not?


Can't you tell the difference between PC, woke nonsense and 'good advice'? Serious question.

And why do you need a subplot to flesh out the wife? Don't the two of them interact? Don't they talk to each other? Doesn't she behave in certain ways? How is their home decorated? What things do they have on the mantelpiece, in display cabinets and the such? What area have they chosen to live in? How does she react to the situation? What words does she use in conveying advice? 

Your only job is to make her feel real, not cater to ideologues.


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## ironpony (Oct 23, 2021)

Oh well I was just told that the problem with her character is that she doesn't seem to have any goals of her own that are outside the main plot, and thus not making for a full developed character.  But if I give her goals outside of the main plot, than that means I would have to introduce subplot, to introduce those goals, doesn't it?

I did think the advice was PC and woke more likely, but if more than one person said it, I thought maybe I should give the benefit of the doubt on the advice then.


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## Travalgar (Oct 24, 2021)

ironpony said:


> ...I was told....



I sincerely thank you for demonstrating the opposite end of the Advice Taking Spectrum. A career in ghostwriting would suit you perfectly.


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## Taylor (Oct 24, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh well it's just I want the story to be good, so shouldn't I take reader's advice if I want it to be though?  Otherwise how do you know if it is or not?


I think it's great that you are keeping an open mind to readers' opinions.  Because you're right, how can you know if the story is good?  But there is so much to consider when weighing feedback.  For example:

1) Is this person my target market?
2) How many people have had the same response?
3) Can I see some value in the comment?

If the answers to the above are, yes, several others and they have a point, then you may need to adjust.  However, the change required may not be that difficult.



> However, I was told by a couple of readers that they do not like the MC's wife as a character and think she is poorly written, because as a woman, she has no goals of her own, and everything she does is of a reaction to a male character.


There's nothing inherently wrong with this because you wrote the character as a supporting character.  The parts of her you choose to portray are only limited parts of her life, that are in line with the protagonist's actions.  She has her own goals of course, after all, she is trying to keep him alive right?  But the question is, could it add to the story if you showed more of her?    I will admit, I sometimes get annoyed watching movies when all of the women characters are written from a male point of view, i.e., a doting wife, a nag, or a badass.  Or, it's common to see a cast of almost no women at all, unless they only serve the purpose to react to men. So I respect your efforts to respond to these readers.  



> But if I were to give her own goals of her own, apart from the main plot, wouldn't it come off as an unnecessary subplot though? Wouldn't readers think what does her having to reach this goal of hers, have anything to do with the MC seeking revenge on the villains?


I would avoid a sub-plot at this point if you have already completed the work.  I think you can massage it gently, particularly focusing on the dialogue.  It's hard to give specific advice when I haven't read your script, but perhaps you could share an example of a conversation she has with him.  I could give it whirl.


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## Foxee (Oct 24, 2021)

ironpony said:


> I was told by a couple of readers that they do not like the MC's wife as a character and think she is poorly written, because as a woman, she has no goals of her own, and everything she does is of a reaction to a male character.  But if I were to give her own goals of her own, apart from the main plot, wouldn't it come off as an unneccessary subplot though?  Wouldn't readers think what does her having to reach this goal of hers, have anything to do with the MC seeking revenge on the villains?


Okay, I'll strap on the blindfold and take the shot, what harm can there be in that?

There are STORY GOALS and CHARACTER GOALS. If you gave the wife 'goals of her own' that were story goals then you would have to add that subplot unless you had some other clever way for her to realize that story goal. But if you give her 'goals of her own' that do not have immediate bearing on the plot then those don't have to happen on-camera.

Example:

Maybe a poorly written wife with no goals of her own might be like this. 
(Disclaimer: There is nothing wrong with marital devotion I'm just trying to show it as a single dimension): 
_"I loved Bob from the first grade and never even looked at another boy. I keep our home neat and orderly for him and stand at the window waiting for him to come home to the delicious meal that I've cooked. All I can imagine doing with my life is keeping Bob company, Bob is all I think about."_

A wife with some character goals and more dimension:
_"Bob and I have a happy life together. We argue sometimes and he leaves his stuff in the hallway all the time but we intend to always work those things out. He's patient with my return to school for my Master's in Library Science even though it's an expensive and time-consuming undertaking. Maybe it helps that though I laughed at him a little I still backed him all the way when he took a Mixology course after his 35th birthday."_

Is she a single-dimension character or not?


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## Steve_Rivers (Oct 24, 2021)

Iron, without trying to sound harsh, and I say this in the best hopes of trying to help you, the first time I read some of your posts I thought you came across as too indecisive to finish a book and publish it. You ask questions and never seem happy with the answers, or second guess the answers, or your own. I can even point to an example just a few posts up...

"I did think the advice was PC and woke more likely, but if more than one person said it, I thought maybe I should give the benefit of the doubt on the advice then." - IronPony

Yes, you have to listen to feedback from readers, and if a good few people are all saying the same thing it can have merit. But you then come here asking _if_ you should listen to them. You want advice on the advice. And _then_ you question people's responses of advice here... This is a vicious cycle of permanent indecision that you're doing because you're scared of finishing the book and fearful of people not liking it. 

How do I know that?

"That's true, all the opinions are different, but how do you know if it's good though, or if it has an audience? Do you just take the risk and go for it, and that's all you can do without possibly knowing anymore?" - IronPony

There is one extremely simple fact you're going to have to face up to if you're going to publish this book...

You will never, ever, ...ever... please everyone.

You'll _never_ know if it's "good enough" because to some it will be great and others it will be utter trash.
No.
Matter.
What.
You can hope a majority of people like it, and use that as a barometer, but there's no guarantee of that with anything, even with the best-selling, tried and tested authors. Artists,... directors... actors... footballers.... _everything._

What you need to do is retrain your brain to look at it in a different way.

"If _I_ like this, and with nearly 8 billion people on this planet, there's a good chance that _other people_ will, as well."

Not focus on hoping to please everyone, which is like walking up a never-ending staircase. You will only wear yourself out.

Take people's advice, then use YOUR own judgement and make sure it is something _you_ like. If you find your judgement wasn't great when it's released, then you _learn_ from it for the next book and get _better_ at knowing what to listen to and what not to... it is a learning experience like everything else.

If you don't personally want to read your own book by the end of writing it, then you aren't being true to yourself or expressing your own artistry. You're just a panderer to other people's opinions.

Because you aren't writing for the people who will _never_ like your book, you are writing for the people who will _love_ your book. And they will only love it if it reflects you, your decisions, and your own judgement.


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## ironpony (Oct 24, 2021)

Okay thanks, that is very good words.  Let's say I am writing it for me and want people to love what I love about it.  If readers make suggestions on how they feel certain parts could be better, should I still make those changes though for the reader's best interest, even if I commit to the changes?


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## Turnbull (Oct 29, 2021)

ironpony said:


> My story is a crime thriller.  The main character wants revenge on these villains, who keep getting away with their crimes, and the MC's wife, doesn't want him to do down the revenge path, and doesn't want him to get killed or end up in jail, so she tries to stop him.  But her trying to stop him makes things worse as she is also put in danger and the villains are able to use her as bargaining chip later.   This causes more consequences for the MC to suffer as a result of his revenge.
> 
> However, I was told by a couple of readers that they do not like the MC's wife as a character and think she is poorly written, because as a woman, she has no goals of her own, and everything she does is of a reaction to a male character.  But if I were to give her own goals of her own, apart from the main plot, wouldn't it come off as an unneccessary subplot though?  Wouldn't readers think what does her having to reach this goal of hers, have anything to do with the MC seeking revenge on the villains?
> 
> I want to create a three dimensional character, but at the same time, I don't want to create subplots that do not have anything to do with the main plot.  Unless that's not possible?  Thanks for any advice on this!  I really appreciate it!



Every character has a role in the story.  Sometimes it is larger, and sometimes it is smaller.  If the wife has only a small part in the story, you don't have to flesh her out.  Like you said, fleshing her out too much can distract from your intentions.  Remember, your intentions are paramount, and if reader advice contradicts this, you have the right to disagree.  Flesh out the wife character to the extent she is involved in your story.

That, and if she wants her husband to be safe, that's a fine enough goal.


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## ironpony (Nov 5, 2021)

Oh okay, I can do that.  But the reader said it was an insult to female characters to not have them have their own goals in the story, that are not in service to the main plot.  If that's true?


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## Garlith (Nov 13, 2021)

I have a similar struggle where I want all my characters to be 3 dimensional without detracting from the main story.

Out of curiosity, what is your medium? Is this a movie, series, book? Knowing how to handle the balance of content is in my opinion one of the hardest things about being a writer. You have to chop and chisel everything down to make it palpable to your audience (you don't HAVE to of course, but it helps) so it doesn't feel bogged down or aimless.

As an example, I really enjoyed the series Breaking Bad because each "side" character had motivations that related to the plot which gave them development over time. Of course they had 5 seasons to do this, so knowing what exactly you're aiming for might help narrow down how to best approach it.

(Also coming from a female myself, I also recommend not trying to cater to an agenda. Make something unique, make it yours, if you can be inclusive go for it, but forcing it just makes things worse in the long run)


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## Xander416 (Nov 13, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, I can do that.  But the reader said it was an insult to female characters to not have them have their own goals in the story, that are not in service to the main plot.  If that's true?


I'd hazard the only one offended there is the reader, since the "female characters" in question are fictional and thus incapable of being offended.

And, quite frankly, what these days _isn't_ an offense to someone out there?


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## Deleted member 66445 (Nov 22, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh but okay but I didn't think they were trivialities if people had a problem with it, unless I am wrong, and people were making too much of it?


It might be written as in you have completed beginning, middle, end, but as others have emphatically said, there isn't really a way for us to tell you an opinion on the story if you've never posted anything for us to read.  The story is not done if you have such evident insecurities about what you have written, and from your questions and comments, it seems there may need to be a lot of rewriting, either to satisfy your own questions about the work, or, once you have let others in to crit it, to incorporate changes.

Follow your heart with the writing, although MY characters push and prod me to go ways that I might not have gone originally, I find if I follow them, my story is better.  Not everyone writes like that.
If having the wife be more rounded out with her own subplot makes sense, then do it. I have one character that wasn't supposed to be more than a blip in my story turn out to be much more than that as I wrote.   If I truly doubted whether a sub-plot "fit", I might post a snippet in the forum and ask for an opinion from someone who knows more than I do.


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## PrairieHostage (Dec 21, 2021)

Write a backstory for her on one sheet of paper. Everything about her. Is she educated? What does she do for a living? How does her husband's vengeance rock the boat with what she's got going on in her life? What was her personality like before she married? Backstory on a separate piece of paper will help you understand her, as well as write her dialogue and her actions.

I wrote a screenplay and had zero expectations it would ever sell because it was an Indie story. We had a rep in California and were read by Sony. They told us unless a director writes a script OR you have an A-lister attached to the project (think Robin Williams with Damon/Affleck's Good Will Hunting) the script will sit collecting dust on a shelf. Consider writing the story into a novel. I've got a script I want to convert to a novel. Way easier to get out there.


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## RGS (Dec 21, 2021)

ironpony said:


> My story is a crime thriller.  The main character wants revenge on these villains, who keep getting away with their crimes, and the MC's wife, doesn't want him to do down the revenge path, and doesn't want him to get killed or end up in jail, so she tries to stop him.  But her trying to stop him makes things worse as she is also put in danger and the villains are able to use her as bargaining chip later.   This causes more consequences for the MC to suffer as a result of his revenge.
> 
> However, I was told by a couple of readers that they do not like the MC's wife as a character and think she is poorly written, because as a woman, she has no goals of her own, and everything she does is of a reaction to a male character.  But if I were to give her own goals of her own, apart from the main plot, wouldn't it come off as an unneccessary subplot though?  Wouldn't readers think what does her having to reach this goal of hers, have anything to do with the MC seeking revenge on the villains?
> 
> I want to create a three dimensional character, but at the same time, I don't want to create subplots that do not have anything to do with the main plot.  Unless that's not possible?  Thanks for any advice on this!  I really appreciate it!



Why stop there? What about the girl behind the counter at the store where he buys his ammunition? Doesn't she have goals and aspirations of her own? How about the lady he pulls up next to in traffic as he's chasing the bad guys? I'm sure she has opinions, thoughts, and goals.

I mean, seriously. I'm willing to bet that there are also male characters in your book who don't have seven chapters devoted to their goals and personalities. 

Let me be just a little bit blatant here. Back when I was seeking an agent, there were some agencies I refused to even query, and they were usually the ones who threw their "wokeness" in my face the second I opened their website. As far as I'm concerned, we get plenty of that crap in reality these days without being expected to also write it into our fiction. 

Based on the above, it actually sounds like you've written the part of the wife very well. It also sounds like your "beta readers" aren't going to be happy until you rewrite it to fit their little politically correct fantasies.


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## RGS (Dec 21, 2021)

VRanger said:


> My advice is that if after SIX PLUS YEARS into this project, you don't even know who your characters are yet, it's time to mark it down to experience and try something new.
> 
> Plus, most of your posts indicate you are blown like a leaf in the wind by what this and that person says. You simply CANNOT complete a readable project like that. Write what you want, write THE END, and move on. As I've discussed, should you ever actually sell this screenplay, by the time the director's writer gets through with it, you won't recognize virtually anything you wrote, anyway.


One of the greatest quotes I've ever heard:

"_If you try to please everyone, you'll wind up pleasing no one._"
-Aesop


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## RGS (Dec 21, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh well it's just I want the story to be good, so shouldn't I take reader's advice if I want it to be though?  Otherwise how do you know if it is or not?


Funny that you should ask that... Among the friends who read my first book, one said that he wasn't overly fond of a particular section of the plot. Guess what was the *favorite* part of another one? Uh-huh.

That's how it goes. We humans are 70 percent water and 30 percent attitude and opinion. That's why you see Rap CD's in the stores next to Classical, Country, and Heavy Metal.

You do you!


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## RGS (Dec 21, 2021)

ironpony said:


> That's true, all the opinions are different, but how do you  know if it's good though, or if it has an audience?  Do you just take the risk and go for it, and that's all you can do without possibly knowing anymore?


You can't, and that's the beauty of it. I don't mean to bombard this thread, but the best story you can write is the one that YOU write, not while taking dictation from the opinions of others.

Did you know that some of the most famous recorded songs in history were meant to be the 'B' side? That's because, what do you know, it turned out that the opinions of the public differed from those of the janitor and the security guard.


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## RGS (Dec 22, 2021)

Ajoy said:


> From what I've seen, you've been stuck in an advice seeking loop which seems to be keeping you from progressing on your project.


There's actually a term for this, and it can apply to practically anything in life. It's called "Analysis Paralysis." It's where you analyze an action to the point that you take no action at all.

ironpony, let me just say... your description above sounds like something I would personally enjoy reading. Fill it with chapters about the wife and her dreams and goals, and you remove that.


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## MiltonBradley (Dec 22, 2021)

Wow. Does everyone who asks for advice in this forum get beat up this badly?


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## RGS (Dec 22, 2021)

MiltonBradley said:


> Wow. Does everyone who asks for advice in this forum get beat up this badly?


We're not beating him up in the least. We're encouraging him. Like I said above, his description of the plot sounds like something that would intrigue me, but if he caved to the "advice" he's being given, it would dilute that by adding subplots that aren't necessary.


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## MiltonBradley (Dec 22, 2021)

I'm just saying...if I had been a potential member scanning the forum's content, and that was the first thread I read...I would not have joined.

His original question is actually a viable discussion topic. *How do I give the wife's character more depth?* As a new writer I have the same questions for my own characters. I hear people use the term character development, but *how* do you actually do that? What does character development look like?


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## MiltonBradley (Dec 22, 2021)

I saw the thread about character introductions a while back (I scanned your forum for some time before joining), and I really liked that because it actually showed me how people introduce their characters.


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## RGS (Dec 23, 2021)

There's an old fable about trying to please everyone:









						The Miller, His Son, and Their Ass - Fables of Aesop
					


A Miller and his Son had an Ass. They tried to change how they moved as they met people along the road. They lost the Ass while trying to please everyone.





					fablesofaesop.com
				




In this case, they just completely lost their ass.


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