# Am I expecting too much of people?



## LeeC (Nov 5, 2016)

This is a question I've never posed to anyone, so please ignore it if it bothers you. If anyone feels the need to get disrespectful, please go elsewhere as such won't be allowed here.

I was nurtured in a different culture than likely any of you, but it gave me an appreciation of things worth much more than the material trappings of the broader world. We all have some sort of religion, even if such is denying religion, and mine, if you can call it a religion, is essentially understanding the connectedness of all life and trying to live in respectful coexistence.

Out in the big world, getting through life has been a real chore, as I'm sure it is for all of you. One key thing that made it such a chore for me is seeing how we plunder the natural world that in essence sustains us. Oh, many don't do so intentionally, and all of us have to struggle to get along day to day, but even when faced with what our excesses are causing commonly turn a blind eye. 

I still hold out hope that a critical mass of humanity will learn to leave a decent world for our children to get by in, but being a student of history have my nagging doubts. We see corruption and unnecessary violence rearing its ugly head again, as it has many time before, and our actions/solutions leave a lot to be desired as usual. 

What's gotten me into this down mood is coming across so many outspoken "god fearing" people in my broader internet exposure of late, that turn a blind eye to the more serious wrongs. 

Most of you would care deeply if those wrongs affected people you felt close to, but what about people that in suffering for what they believe in, are in effect suffering for your sake also. 

It tears my heart out to see people like the woman below doing just that. Is all our goodness limited to what's convenient? Though it will likely damage my so-called branding effort, I've started including the following post in that effort. I don't know how else to live with myself? Am I wrong in doing so, or at a minimum wasting my time?


*Save**Save*​


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## PiP (Nov 5, 2016)

No Lee, you are not expecting too much of people. Society on the whole (not everyone) has become more materialistic fueled by greed or the 'look at me' culture. I see it within my own family. 

On one hand I have a daughter who wanted to help the Syrian children caught up in the war. The news reports and visuals broke her heart. Now she runs a registered charity to help the Syrian refugee children. She is not political but even she flew from France to take part in a rally and a march to Downing St in London to highlight the plight of the children. Her home has turned into a warehouse/delivery point/collection centre for all the clothes and sundries to be shipped on to Syria, and refugee centers across Europe. 

On the other side of the coin my son and DIL are more interested in designer brands, and diamonds - the bigger the better! So all glitz and glam. They have dogs no children. If they do charity marathons it's all about look at me I've run xx and posing for the cameras and big drama.

My other son has two wonderful kids that are spoiled rotten with toys. They are happy and a wonderful family unit but I do wonder if they can be persuaded to do more for the environment and make their children aware some actions have consequences.

The point of the above message is that I am sorely tempted not to buy Christmas presents this year for my sons, Dils or grandkids and donate the money to an environmental charity instead.... maybe one where you adopt an endangered animal, buy a tree or whatever. I don't know.

If I am honest, while I've always had my heart in the country it was not until I moved to the edge of nowhere and observe how the poor country people lived that I learned the true meaning of upcyling and recycling. No, it wasn't going through the motions of driving a smart 4x4 city tractor to recycle a few bottles in the bottle bank at the Supermarket, as I witnessed in the UK, it is reusing what you have for something else. Nor buying fruit and veg in fancy containers or prepacked meat etc. Did you know there are ten different ways to reuse a plastic bottle (we have no choice but to buy our water in large plastic bottles). How to preserve water. Not using pesticide/insecticides. Companion planting to attract bees and deter certain insects. The list goes on... it's the little things. When I read about recycling in the UK where they are expected to wash the tins etc  before putting them in twee recycling boxes, it does make my blood boil when I consider how precious water is.

So circling  back to





> It tears my heart out to see people like the woman below doing just that. Is all our goodness limited to what's convenient?



I hear you, Lee. It's reeducating the young to step outside their comfort zone.


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## Winston (Nov 5, 2016)

I'm just throwing this out there...  Many of the people you may dismiss as apathetic or even contrary to your view of good, those folks are simply inflexible.

Yelling at a pig-headed person only annoys them and makes you hoarse.  Talking down to them confirms their world view that everyone else is an A-Hole.
Reason doesn't always work.  But it should always be tried.  If you fail to convince someone you think is your intellectual inferior, YOU must try harder.  Giving up is for losers.

A famous politician from the 1980's once said, "My 80% friend is not my 20% enemy".
We all need to try harder.  But IMHO, we must appeal to the good, by shining a light on it.  No scare tactics, guilt, or fear-mongering.  That just pushes everyone back to their corners.


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## escorial (Nov 5, 2016)

LC it's people like you that always make the kind of difference that your world can show the rest how it's acheivable man..


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## dale (Nov 5, 2016)

the 'apathy' you talk about is mainly people, such as myself...getting sick of being manipulated by certain
groups. because this really isn't even about these indians  here; and  only a small fraction of these indians who
live in this area are even protesting. most of them aren't  even against it. #1? it's not even designated to
pass through their land. it never was. but  what's happened is bolshevik environmental communist groups
have organized  a few of these indians....probably paid them to protest...and then the coverage  of it manipulates
the heartstrings in totally nice, decent people such as yourself....and then you get this reaction. but it has really
nothing to do with the indians on either  side. it's the age-old battle between the capitalists  and the communists.
and this is why people like me dismiss it.


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## Kevin (Nov 5, 2016)

Once there was going to be a pipeline across the wilderness of a wild state. If we built it we'd have oil for the next fifty-sixty years- no more reliance on or mercy of OPEC. The drawback was that pipeline building causes a bunch of damage. Seems like no one remembers anything....


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## dale (Nov 5, 2016)

Kevin said:


> Once there was going to be a pipeline across the wilderness of a wild state. If we built it we'd have oil for the next fifty-sixty years- no more reliance on or mercy of OPEC. The drawback was that pipeline building causes a bunch of damage. Seems like no one remembers anything....



one  could make the argument that ALL construction is "environmentally damaging". it always  is in one way or another.


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## Kevin (Nov 5, 2016)

Construction damages.. Yes. 

I don't think this case is being very well presented. I mean the easy thing is to follow the money. The rest is murky. Is it a pipeline on top of another existing pipeline? All on private land? And the fear is that it will bust and polute at the watercrossings? Is this unfounded fear or is there statistical..? And I know how those can be manipulated so I'll need a third party analysis.


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## LeeC (Nov 5, 2016)

Sorry to upset you dale,  and you have a perfect right to your views. The bigger picture as I see it is more the desperate oil consortium, their funding banks, and lackey politicians, manipulating the populace. Why desperate? They can see the world is a'changin', with more and more critically thinking people coming to the understanding that fossil fuel is a major factor in accelerated global warming. Sorry to mention that, as I believe you're turned off by the subject, but it's a factor here. And yes, there are a good many chicken littles running around, fearing the world will end with global warming, without understanding the full scope of our destructive excesses, nor that life will go on in some form regardless.

Being a student of natural history I take a more encompassing view, which includes being aware of the evidence of the Permian–Triassic extinction, colloquially known as the Great Dying. In it some 252 million years ago, 90% to 96% of all multicellular species became extinct, and the recovery of vertebrates took some 30 million years, different forms of course. This grandaddy of all extinction events may become more prominent in our awareness. At the time there was a massive release of carbon into the atmosphere precipitating runaway global warming, and its consequences such as favoring bacteria that produce hydrogen sulfide (think purple oceans and pale green sky). Not very conducive to our existence. 

That's only a part of the story though. Beyond the bulldozers, polluters, and usual cast of suspects, it's become obvious that extermination of the earth’s apex predators, and other keystone species of ecosystems, vehemently swept aside in humanity’s global swarming, has triggered a cascade of ecological consequences. Where predators no longer hunt, their prey has run amok, amassing at freakish densities, crowding out competing species, denuding landscapes and seascapes as they go. Rat soup for dinner anyone?

And yes, I have a connection with the indigenous people involved, seeing them as another victim of our self-destructive materialistic excesses. But that no more than keystone species like the mountain lion that kept herbivores in check, and beaver that are responsible for more that thirty percent of the fertile soil we now harvest our mono-crops on, and pollute with our synthetic agrochemicals. The list goes on and on. 

I won't bore you by going on and on, but rather leave you with one simple thought.

*Save**Save*​


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## dale (Nov 5, 2016)

i won't debate this, even though i could. debate isn't allowed here. and even if it was polite debate? as soon as i started putting up
the science of geology and the deep core sample evidence which proves man-made climate change a crock of shit? a warning would
pop up telling me no debating is allowed here. so there ya go.


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## patskywriter (Nov 5, 2016)

I don’t know if you can go much beyond “doing your bit.” Adopt the ideals that work for you and abide by them, and if you have kids, perhaps you can share those ideals. Me? I’m sitting here surrounded by my solar lights, which have caught the imaginations of some of my friends. In my little world, I wield some influence, but I can’t imagine what it would be like going up against the “big boys.” I’m saving a bundle of money and sharing ideas to “save the earth” via my publication and my friends and family. I’m probably not making a big difference in the world—in fact, I know I’m not. But that doesn’t stop me from doing what I can. I might be out of step with the big, greedy, commercial world out there, but I’m happy here in mine.


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## LeeC (Nov 5, 2016)

Thank you patskywriter. It's really a matter of a lot of small voices, accumulating to potentially make a difference. Even when someone makes a big splash, it's soon forgotten by the many comfortable in their modern kitchens. Look at the impact Rachel Carson had, propelled by the chemical industry trying to vilify her, but here we are still trying to poison the pollinators necessary to our accustomed diet. 

People dig into their comfort zones, but I'm discovering more and more questioning such, just with my small post about truly caring for our children. 

Every objective voice counts, so again thank you.


--------------------Addl. info-------------------

If anyone wonders what the fuss in this instance is about:

An instigating issue in the Dakotas that major media fails to inform us about, is the occurrence of pipeline failures, the resulting damage, and the likelihood of further failures polluting habitat.

From the Center for Effective Government:

Since 2010, over 3,300 incidents of crude oil and liquefied natural gas leaks or ruptures have occurred on U.S. pipelines. These incidents have killed 80 people, injured 389 more, and cost $2.8 billion in damages. They also released toxic, polluting chemicals in local soil, waterways, and air. 

Over 1,000 of these incidents occurred on pipelines carrying crude oil. High Country News, a nonprofit news organization in Colorado, mapped these spills:

*Crude Oil Pipeline Incidents, 2010 to Present
*


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## bdcharles (Nov 6, 2016)

What sort of responses are you expecting from people, that you're currently not getting? At the end of the day, we are all different, and we can either argue with others to try and make them more like us (and I don't know of an instance where that's ever worked) or we can try and understand their viewpoint first. Real tolerance looks not just like acceptance of those that others find distasteful, but those that we ourselves do.


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## Sam (Nov 6, 2016)

Yes, Lee, you are expecting too much of people. 

I don't mean that in a "your expectations are ridiculous" way, but in a "people are more concerned about what some vapid and vacuous celebrity is doing" way. I believe you are underestimating how little people actually engage in any kind of conversation that doesn't involve pointless small talk, gossip, or conversing about the weather.  



LeeC said:


> They can see the world is a'changin', with more and more critically thinking people coming to the understanding that fossil fuel is a major factor in accelerated global warming.



Who are these "more and more critical thinkers"? I can think of one person in my entire life that I have had a critical conversation with about any subject that critical thinkers would frequently converse about. The cleavage between critical thinkers and the rest of the world is much broader and wider than even I am comfortable admitting. This forum doesn't count because writers tend to be among the more critical thinkers in the world for one reason: they read. 

But I sincerely doubt that there is even a fraction of the critical thinkers today that there was a hundred years ago. The majority of them, you'll find on sites like this, where it is easier to 'meet' like-minded people and where it is equally easy to state an opinion that would, in the real world, be met with incredulity, mocking, and other typical sheep behaviour. I'm sure you've encountered it trying to convince your friends and family -- how quickly people change the subject or try to dismiss what you're saying because it doesn't marry with their own beliefs? 

It's virtually impossible to converse with people who have been brainwashed by television and the media since they were born. This will be interesting: hands up how many people believe, for instance, that you have to wait 24 hours before filing a missing persons report? And if you are one of those people, why do you believe that? Perhaps because television tells you it's true? Actually, it's a pile of steaming nonsense. You can file a missing persons report 24 _seconds _after someone goes missing, if you feel so inclined. But it just goes to show you how gullible people can be.  

So how can we possibly expect more from people when the majority believe everything they're spoon-fed?


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## Cran (Nov 6, 2016)

I would hope it is still true that a higher than average proportion of critical thinkers can be found in places of higher learning; universities and the like.

It is true, though, that societies as human entities still struggle to emerge from the dark ages (as distinct from the Dark Ages, which is only one Euro-centric example) where the majority accept and adopt the teachings and viewpoints of the controlling authority of the day, whether it is a clerical elite (many times and places), a revolutionary elite (which can take a number of forms), or a reactionary elite (likewise).

Yes, now the most used medium to convey such teachings and viewpoints are the dangerously addictive variations of mass media, although books still play a large part.


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## LeeC (Nov 6, 2016)

I would hope that books still play some part Cran, or I wouldn't have gone to the effort. All the indicators I've noticed though, readership is down, at least for books that try to engage the mind ;-) What I've noticed more specifically is readership down at libraries (more available data), but that's partly due to decreased funding of libraries. What I see on the sales side is healthy sales of books that play to the subjective ;-) and otherwise decreased sales. I could be wrong as there's a volume of compulsory sales for education which is ill-defined.  There are exceptions like The Sixth Extinction: An Unnatural History by Elizabeth Kolber, but I won't embarrass myself in guessing why. It is a good book to my mind, reminding me of Rachel Carson in having all her ducks in a row, leaving the naysayers to trip over their tongues. Might get a bit boring though, to those that don't have much of an interest in the subject, which I'd guess is many. 

Anyway, thank you all. Your comments did lead me to change the wording of my post, which is getting retweeted more. Yes a mass media that takes a grain of salt to digest Cran, but with big business controlling major media a necessary alternative.


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## Cran (Nov 6, 2016)

major media is still mass media, Lee. Before the internet, that's what we called mass media: newspapers, magazines, radio, television, even movies. Not considered mass media but still used to craft social messages (propaganda) into the population on an overwhelming scale were school literature and so-called 'allowed reading'.


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## PiP (Nov 6, 2016)

Lee, have you watched

*National Geographic will be streaming Leonardo DiCaprio’s environmental documentary ‘Before the Flood ‘ entirely free from October 30th till November 6th.*


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## Sam (Nov 6, 2016)

Cran said:


> I would hope it is still true that a higher than average proportion of critical thinkers can be found in places of higher learning; universities and the like.



From what I can see, it's quite the opposite. 

Modern-day universities appear to be populated by people who clamour for safe spaces and who refuse to be taught certain aspects of various courses lest they become 'traumatised' or 'triggered' by them. Not exactly critical-thinking material, if you ask me.


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## Cran (Nov 6, 2016)

Sam said:


> From what I can see, it's quite the opposite.
> 
> Modern-day universities appear to be populated by people who clamour for safe spaces and who refuse to be taught certain aspects of various courses lest they become 'traumatised' or 'triggered' by them. Not exactly critical-thinking material, if you ask me.



That is a disconcerting situation.


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## LeeC (Nov 6, 2016)

Sam said:


> From what I can see, it's quite the opposite.
> 
> Modern-day universities appear to be populated by people who clamour for safe spaces and who refuse to be taught certain aspects of various courses lest they become 'traumatised' or 'triggered' by them. Not exactly critical-thinking material, if you ask me.


From my little  formal education experience in ecology I'd side with your view Sam. I found a lot more "butterfly collectors" than interaction focused people. Data collection is a prerequisite, but without integration we learn little. 

There are also few books for the general reader that strive to get across the connectedness of all life. One exception is Heart of a Lion: A Lone Cat's Walk Across America by William Stolzenburg, which I reviewed lately. As I noted in my review, it's superbly written, journalistic style non-fiction, rendering a mountain lion's journey from the Black Hills of South Dakota to the Connecticut coast, but that's only the glue that holds this exceptional work together. It gives the reader greater perspective into man's relationship with biodiversity, and the ecological consequences we're seeing. 

Anyway, thank you all. I've gotten back to my plateau of seeing humankind as but another variation of life, with the same basic drives and Achilles heels inherent in all life forms  Hey, it keeps me sane.


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## Cran (Nov 6, 2016)

LeeC said:


> ... Hey, it keeps me sane.


You say that like it's a good thing. 

I sometimes wonder if sanity is overrated.


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## ppsage (Nov 6, 2016)

No society has ever faced the sort of decision-making nexus which humans face today. Connectedness, participation, information, penetration of intrests, elaboration of organization, pace of effect, scope of effect, to name a few of the variables, have all, in my estimation, evolved into something new and ill-understood. Confusion is to be expected and frustration seems likely. Entertaining expectation might be imprudent.


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## LeeC (Nov 7, 2016)

Cran said:


> You say that like it's a good thing.
> 
> I sometimes wonder if sanity is overrated.



I'm thinking of sanity in the form of more realistic expectations, to ease one's mind. I had a particularly good day, or diversion day, however one thinks of it. I mentioned earlier this year that all the hazelnut bushes I planted in my natural garden were fruiting for the first time. Now, Im seeing squirrels and black bears harvesting them in preparation for winter. Also kind of comical to watch the wild turkeys try to get at the higher berries in the highbush-cranberry bushes. Most of the other berry plants have already been picked clean by various birds.

BTW Cran, why is it this site doesn't recognize that we turned our clocks back an hour in NH last night. Never could figure how people could believe cutting a foot off one end of a rope, and adding it to the other end would make the rope longer 



ppsage said:


> No society has ever faced the sort of decision-making nexus which humans face today. Connectedness, participation, information, penetration of intrests, elaboration of organization, pace of effect, scope of effect, to name a few of the variables, have all, in my estimation, evolved into something new and ill-understood. Confusion is to be expected and frustration seems likely. Entertaining expectation might be imprudent.



Maybe a good part of what I think you're describing, we've brought on ourselves in the increasing artificiality and unrealistic expectations of our human bubbles? 


Best wishes to all. I'm off to bed, as the dog is telling me it's past time for her goodnight roast beef snack.


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## Cran (Nov 7, 2016)

> BTW Cran, why is it this site doesn't recognize that we turned our  clocks back an hour in NH last night. Never could figure how people  could believe cutting a foot off one end of a rope, and adding it to the  other end would make the rope longer :smile:


Hmm. It should. All I can think is the time-zone you've selected/are locked into might be based on a location that hasn't moved to daylight saving (yet).


Well, the reasons West Oz trialed and refused daylight savings included:

it confused the cows and chickens

it faded the curtains

it was embarrassing for men commuting to work with morning erections


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## Sam (Nov 7, 2016)

Cran said:


> That is a disconcerting situation.



In Ireland and the UK, it hasn't caught on as much as it has in the States. But, yeah, it is a scary situation and it seems that more and more colleges and universities are caving to the demands of students and removing, for instance, sections of law classes that discuss laws as they relate to sexual harassment, rape, and other similar crimes. 

The same thing is happening in history classes, specifically in relation to slavery, black history, and even the Holocaust. 

These topics are being branded too traumatising for certain students (black people, Jewish people, etcetera) and they are no longer taught. Or if they are taught, they're bowdlerised of content that may be perceived as improper or offensive. It's not a stretch to assume that if this continues, in a couple of generations history will be so incomplete that generations to come will never have a clear picture of what really happened.


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