# You CAN Write a Good Book Just For the Money



## Ilasir Maroa (Jul 15, 2010)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Girl_Who_Owned_a_City#Origins_of_the_book



Not the best book ever, but it did pretty well.


----------



## garza (Jul 15, 2010)

Of course you can write a book just for the money, but let me tell you something I learned from experience. You'll hate yourself in the morning. 

The book I'm starting on sustainable development in rural communities in Central America will earn a nice piece of change. But I didn't sign the contract just to get the money. Sustainable organic agriculture as part of a diversified farm system planned from marketing down to soil preparation and back up through production, value added processing, to marketing using the value chain approach to assure that the farm family has a profit, the environment is not damaged, and the culture of the local society is not upset is a concept that I see as a way out of poverty for many people in developing countries.

Tell me you'll pay me the same amount describing how globalisation and gm seeds will save the world and I'll hang up on you.

I'm not ashamed to take the money for writing a book or a report or anything else so long as what I'm writing is something I believe in. 

One time I wrote just for the money. I gave the money to Goodwill and took a hot shower with plenty of soap and still felt dirty.


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jul 15, 2010)

Some of the best-selling books in the world were written for the money.  Nothing wrong with it, anymore than doing anything else for the money.  If you can make something and sell it, good on you


----------



## Ilasir Maroa (Jul 15, 2010)

Exactly my point.

And I doubt this guy hated himself, garza.


----------



## garza (Jul 15, 2010)

From a practical standpoint that's all well and good. I do know how the world works. But I continue to be under the influence of my grandfather, my mother's father, who died almost 60 years ago. He was Ulster Irish, an atheist humanist with a moral code made of cast iron and rules for ethical behaviour carved in stone. He was a successful businessman and a power in Mississippi politics a hundred years ago, respected and trusted but never liked, according to my father. His views on race and religion were not popular, but he was known as a man who could be depended on to do exactly what he said he would do.

I knew him only as a very old man, but a very stern, unbending old man who hated the English and loved everyone else. He lectured me on how a person can compromise on specific issues without compromising his principles. He did not live to see me start writing, but I believe he would be proud of the way I have lived my life. He never approved of doing anything just for the money. I won't use the word here that he used, but you know what I mean.

On the other hand, who am I to judge? That was another of his principles, that he would never judge what another man did. He would have no dealings with a man he didn't trust, but he never condemned the man either.

What I say and do is said and done with the unblinking eyes of my grandfather looking over my shoulder. I didn't invent my beliefs. I inherited them.


----------



## winkash (Jul 15, 2010)

off topic


garza said:


> The book I'm starting on sustainable development in rural communities in Central America will earn a nice piece of change. But I didn't sign the contract just to get the money. Sustainable organic agriculture as part of a diversified farm system planned from marketing down to soil preparation and back up through production, value added processing, to marketing using the value chain approach to assure that the farm family has a profit, the environment is not damaged, and the culture of the local society is not upset is a concept that I see as a way out of poverty for many people in developing countries.



Hi, Garza. This writing project seems interesting. I'm curious about who are the landowners in your sustainable development plan. :-o


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jul 15, 2010)

Just what are the "moral issues" here?   Why can somebody make jewelry or play music in a club for money--or sell real estate, practice law or medicine, etc--but writing has to have some unspecified qualification of stern moral order or else it's dirty?


----------



## Foxee (Jul 15, 2010)

You can do creative things 'just for the money' but that sure does miss half the reason for doing it at all. 

I'm a trained commercial artist so, yes, I've done art just for cash and the only fun part of that was in pocketing the cash. But at any opportunity to have a really great time creating and make money with it too...THAT'S the full deal in my opinion. I think you end up with a better product when you're passionate/happy/inspired than when you're just trying to make it happen so you can get paid.

When I worked at the airbrush shop I did both, it depended on the job. 

At the 'just do it for the money' extreme I did a portrait of this lady's two dogs. Don't laugh, she was paying WELL for this. I took the photographs and did what I thought she wanted...combined them to get the best pose for the doggies that I could. She was irate! She wanted something that, in my opinion, was inferior to what I'd done. So what did I do? I painted right over my work with what she wanted because it belonged to HER not to me...her money said so. I hated pretty much every moment of the job but when she came back and saw the 'fixed' version she thawed right out and paid up, carting it off happily. I did not put my name on that one...I simply pocketed my commission and was thankful.

At the other end of the spectrum at the same shop someone wanted a simple license plate that had a heart on it and said 'Heartbreaker'. Also it should be primarily red...other than that they said, "Have the artist do whatever they want." That was one beautiful plate and it was a pleasure to paint. I was happy, the customer was happy, and...I was paid! Best possible experience...now if they could all be that way.

Creativity and practicality have to have a good healthy marriage when it comes to making money with creative work. You can write as inspired as you want, have a great time writing...but you also have to edit and that takes an entirely different eye and skillset. You have to revise and maybe that has some of the same passion and maybe it doesn't. You have to sell it in some way if you want the money and that's yet another practical hat to wear.

Sometimes you just do what you have to do and when you can also do what you love to do, rejoice!


----------



## Baron (Jul 15, 2010)

I've always regarded "art for art's sake" as a naive concept.  Getting paid for something is only prostitution of a person contradicts personal ethic to do it.  Many of my close family had a very closely defined work ethic and I tired of hearing comments like, "if you must wok then you should get a proper job".  I was quite pleased to be able to thumb my nose at that by producing remuneration for commissions in both painting and photography.

I also enjoyed the few years that I spent working as an investigative journalist.  Much of that time was spent exposing the practices of unscrupulous landlords and I had a passion for what I was doing.  As well as getting paid well at the time I had sympathy for the situation the tenants were in and a real desire to see some kind of justice.

I do work with homeless people that I don't get paid for.  I have also been paid for photographic work and articles relating to homelessness.  Do I feel bad when a magazine or newspaper pays me for these?  Not at all.  I have to live like anyone else and if I can further a cause and pay the bills at the same time I don't have a problem with that.


----------



## garza (Jul 15, 2010)

Lin - The principle has nothing to do with writing or any other occupation. It applies to everything in life. My son is in construction, has never wanted to do anything else, and he makes quite a bit more than just a decent living at it. I don't know how to cast a concrete roof, but I taught David the value of casting a concrete roof if that's what you love to do. 

For all his liberal thinking, my grandfather had no patience with anyone who complained about what they had to do to make a living. 'Go do something else,' was his answer, and of course that's not always a helpful answer. 

As for art, that's something I know nothing about. I'm no artist, so I'm not sure how granfa's ideas would work in that realm. I would think it would be the same. I suspect the old man would have told the lady with the dogs to do something rude with her money.  

winkash - You touch a nerve, there. Belize was once a crown colony, which meant it was the personal property of the king or queen. Government land continues to be called crown land. 

When you go into the rural areas of the Toledo District, you find the Maya concept of communal land ownership under the stewardship of the Alcalde. In Stann Creek District and in part of the Toledo District there is a similar idea, brought from Africa, among the Garinagu. Yet a third communal land system operates in the Mennonite communities. 

Then with private ownership there is a distinction between leasehold and  freehold. Leased land must be put to use or forfeited. It can also be forfeited for political reasons. 

There are lawyers who make a good living just dealing with the Lands Department.

And I'd better sto there before we get cited for 'off topic' discussion. One day soon I'll put some of my thoughts up in non-fiction and we can talk further.


----------



## Sam (Jul 15, 2010)

garza said:


> Of course you can write a book just for the money, but let me tell you something I learned from experience. You'll hate yourself in the morning.



No, I won't. I'll be too busy laughing all the way to the bank.


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jul 15, 2010)

I also selll writing to alleviate the plight of the homeless.

Me.

I have a house at this point, and want to continue living indoors rather than outdoors.  Why thiis would be morally or esthetically questionable is beyond me.


----------



## Foxee (Jul 15, 2010)

Baron said:


> Getting paid for something is only prostitution of a person contradicts personal ethic to do it.


 Exactly, this is where I draw the line at the 'customer is always right'. I've turned down one job in the past because the design was clearly obscene and was willing to walk away from the income on another one because the slogan that the customer wanted to add was so bad. In both cases the reaction was a sputtering, "But...but...I'm offering to PAY you so you HAVE to do it!" Horse hockey, I don't need your money, get out of my face.

Thankfully, this doesn't happen all that often.


----------



## garza (Jul 15, 2010)

Every one has been arguing against what I say and then Baron comes along and says 'Getting paid for something is only prostitution if a person contradicts personal ethic to do it' and just what do you think I've been saying all the time?

I will repeat. I make no apologies for getting paid for what I do. I write. I love to write, and so long as there is nothing morally questionable about what I am paid to write I like getting paid for it. So I like writing and I like getting paid and I put the two together and I can make a living doing something I love to do and would be doing anyway, paid or not. Is that such a difficult concept to understand?

If someone comes to me and says 'using your knowledge of economic and social development in the countries of the ACP write an article about how globalisation and the policies of the World Trade Organisation, International Monetary Fund, and World Bank will lead to the elimination of rural poverty' I would certainly refuse because they would be asking me to violate the ethical standards I have lived by from childhood. Such an article would be a lie. To write such an article and take money for it would be prostitution.

If someone comes to me and says 'using your knowledge of economic and social development in the countries of the ACP write an article about how training rural families to make efficient use of organic production techniques can lead to healthier children and reduced negative impact on the environment' I would (and in fact have) gladly accept the commission and accept the cheque when the job was done. That would be best of all. I use the skills of my craft to motivate people to support the right kind of rural development and I'm paid to do it.


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jul 15, 2010)

How about if somebody says, Hey, write a book about something and we'll give you some money?

I just get really sick of people going around making moral judgement about what other people write


----------



## Foxee (Jul 15, 2010)

I think you guys agree more than you disagree. Let's all go make some money.

And in that vein, I just got my article done and turned in...yay! It's not much but every dollar coming in rather than going out is a Good Dollar. Nice Dollar.


----------



## garza (Jul 15, 2010)

Lin - My history of political development in Belize from December 31st, 1949, to January 1st, 1964 began just that way.I had hoped to finish it this year, but I need another six months digging in the archives and talking to the old guys to get it done. Check out those dates and you'll see why I chose them.

I don't judge what other people do. I know what I will do and what I won't do, and I do not mind expressing myself in that regard. But what another person does is their business, not mine.


----------



## garza (Jul 15, 2010)

Foxee - I'm all for that.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa (Jul 15, 2010)

Garza, maybe it will avoid confusion next time if you don't tell othrs how they will feel after doing something.


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jul 15, 2010)

That could help


----------



## garza (Jul 15, 2010)

I project too much, don't I? 

I assume that if I feel dirty after taking 600 dollars for writing a trash novel, then everyone will feel the same. I mean, it really was bad. I'm not a fiction writer to begin with, and I typed up this piece of garbage by the formula and sent it in and got a cheque and I knew what my grandfather would have said had he been yet alive and had known what I did to dishonour my livelihood. 

But then, also going by his rules, I can't judge how other should feel, or condemn what they do.


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jul 15, 2010)

One thing (of many) that has always amazed me about the arts is that so many people have the idea that money corrupts the process, but ego doesn't


----------



## garza (Jul 15, 2010)

My ego cannot corrupt the arts. I'm not involved in the arts.


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jul 15, 2010)

Then why are you trying to apply your experience to people who write novels?


NOT, btw, that I said you were in the arts.


----------



## Foxee (Jul 15, 2010)

This would be a really good time for you two to move this to PM. It is no longer a public discussion but rather a conversation. Take it to PM if you must, please.


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jul 15, 2010)

Actually, it's not.  What I'm saying is for general readership here.   I can't help it if it's being replied to as personal comments.

Topic is "you can write a good book just for money"   I agree.


----------



## Foxee (Jul 15, 2010)

The most recent posts were not, please take personal discussion to PM. Thank you.


----------



## JosephB (Jul 15, 2010)

Maybe you can set up a play date for them.


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jul 15, 2010)

As usual, Joe the Mod stops by as a cooling influence.

Again.... I was making statements about writing in general.   I can't really help Garza replying to them.   PM'ing him would be a little silly because I don't intend my comments just for him, but addrsssing the thread.

It's not heated, not an argument.  Garza and I get along and tend to see eye to eye.   I don't like having somebody contradict me when I say who I was addressing  there is no way you can really know that better than I.

I REALLY don't lke some mod just hopping in after no previous interest to make belittling comments.   I don't think there was a problem here before, or anybody angry.   I'm kind of moving that direction now.  Because of "moderation"

I know I've mentioned that before.  There might be a reason for that.


----------



## RomanticRose (Jul 15, 2010)

lin said:


> How about if somebody says, Hey, write a book about something and we'll give you some money?
> 
> I just get really sick of people going around making moral judgement about what other people write



Hey Lin, I'm the Harlequin writer (for money) who doesn't really enjoy romance novels.  Welcome to my world.


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jul 15, 2010)

How can you sleep nights?


Hey, long time, no "see"  ma vie en Rose.  How's it going?  Boiling the pot and ripping the bodices?   
Best to you


----------



## RomanticRose (Jul 16, 2010)

lin said:


> How can you sleep nights?
> 
> 
> Hey, long time, no "see" ma vie en Rose. How's it going? Boiling the pot and ripping the bodices?
> Best to you



Doing quite well.  Just ripping bodices, spinning smut, and paying the bills.  Thanks for asking.  *blows a kiss*


----------



## Ilasir Maroa (Jul 16, 2010)

RomanticRose said:


> Doing quite well. Just ripping bodices, spinning smut, and paying the bills. Thanks for asking. *blows a kiss*


 
You're such a sellout, Rose.


----------



## RomanticRose (Jul 16, 2010)

Ilasir Maroa said:


> You're such a sellout, Rose.



And proud of it, thank you very much.  I'm a sellout on a piece of ground with two houses on it and a clear title.  Of course, I know I'd be more of an _artiste _if I lived in a packing crate under a bridge, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be as productive either.

Besides a sign that says, "Will write for food," would just be stupid.


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jul 16, 2010)

> I'd be more of an _artiste _if I lived in a packing crate under a  bridge



Huh...you're lucky enough to have a _crate_?

You might like these lines from one of my screenplays:

ROGER
Are we getting too crass?

NICK
Too commercial? Capitalistic?

Jaxi points to a poster for their concert with bold stencil: "SOLD OUT".

JAXI
Too late.  You can't sell out after you're Sold Out.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa (Jul 16, 2010)

Lin, nice.

Rose, it's all about the crate.  Artists must _suffer_.


----------



## Foxee (Jul 16, 2010)

Suffering enough, thanks. Rose, I have considered going the romance route. Haven't decided totally against it but I keep following the shiny things my brain keeps throwing out there. Financial security is awfully nice, though...


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jul 16, 2010)

> Financial security is awfully nice, though...



So I'm told.

People ask me how I work down here on a little Mexican island and I say,  "I'm a writer.  I can starve just as well anywhere."

It really sucks when you're TRYING to sell out and nobody's buying.


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jul 16, 2010)

I was recently rejected for articles in WRITERS DIGEST!?!?!?!
Hard to say which would be more humiliating, getting rejected by those muffins, or getting accepted.

(Of course, the following month they had a $50 "webinar" featuring some of the concepts I'd proposed--their first online writing one, taught by their Editor, who has never self-published, written on line or sold anything in her life.


----------



## garza (Jul 16, 2010)

Foxee - If financial security is an immediate goal, then give up art altogether and work on non-fiction and straight-forward graphics. It's not get-rich-quick, but once you are established you will find markets opening up all around you. 

There are a couple of hundred NGO's operating in Central America -- I'm not counting the little ones -- with major money from the E-U, UNDP, FAO, you can go through the alphabet and find grant money for almost any kind of report writing, project proposal writing, policy proposal green papers and white papers, the list goes on. If you are good at grant writing, that's another whole field by itself, and a very lucrative one at that.

Every upscale tourist resort wants pictures and well-written articles to pull in the tourists, and they are willing to pay good money for quality product. 

The kind of newspapers where I started may be folding but the overall news market is bigger than ever. Get yourself a top-of-the-line Nikon or Canon, one of the really compact notebooks like my Acer, two changes of clothes, a toothbrush, a roll of tp because you never know, and head for the latest hot spot. Go in harm's way, but stay out of the bars to avoid the rumours and stay away from the press briefings to avoid the lies and go get the stories and the pictures no one else has.

If I were 20 years younger..


----------



## RomanticRose (Jul 16, 2010)

Foxee said:


> Suffering enough, thanks. Rose, I have considered going the romance route. Haven't decided totally against it but I keep following the shiny things my brain keeps throwing out there. Financial security is awfully nice, though...



In the spirit of full disclosure, I'm putting out 3-4 bodice rippers a year and they still only account for 36% of my gross income.  Novel-length wank fodder accounts for another 32% (excluding the film rights which paid off our land/houses).  The rest comes from articles (with photos) written on spec, my newsletter service, personalized (and hand-illustrated) children's books, ad copy, freelance editing/proofreading, etc. ad nauseum.

All that is to say that the writers who are actually achieving financial security from romance novels are turning out between 5-7 or more every year.  I could do it, but it would leave time for nothing else. 

Money aside, the best thing bodicerippers have done for me is get me an agent and a reputation for completing saleable words within a deadline.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa (Jul 16, 2010)

It's sad how many people denigrate romance writers.  Look at some litfic authors who put out a novel every ten or five years, and then look at what you do, Rose.  One guess who I have more respect for.


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jul 16, 2010)

And most of those lit snobs couldn't write their way out of a wet bodice if their honor depended on it.


----------



## Foxee (Jul 16, 2010)

> Foxee - If financial security is an immediate goal, then give up art  altogether and work on non-fiction and straight-forward graphics. It's  not get-rich-quick, but once you are established you will find markets  opening up all around you.


Heck of a lot safer not to assume that I'm not. I could possibly repeat my earlier post here but I will spare everyone that.

Hope I didn't seem like I was putting you down, Rose, I personally just don't read romance because it's not to hard to figure the plot. I worked with a girl who must have pre-ordered every single book Harlequin released, so it does balance out. I'm not the world's biggest fantasy fan either but that doesn't mean that both aren't lucrative markets.


----------



## RomanticRose (Jul 16, 2010)

lin said:


> And most of those lit snobs couldn't write their way out of a wet bodice if their honor depended on it.


 Not to even talk about doing a comprehensible beginning, middle and (Happy) ending in less than 60-75K words.

Ilasir, we're used to it, really.  The strangest part is people who put down the genre more than most have never even read one.  I'll worry more about those opinions when they offer to pay my bills.  

Foxee, I really just thought you were serious when you said you hadn't completely ruled it out and just wanted to give you more complete info.  But really, the part about it being easy to figure out the plot -- it's supposed to be that way.  If it were different, all the "H" fans would run screaming to Avon before you could say plot twist.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa (Jul 16, 2010)

A lot of people are used to a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they should have to be. 

But hey, Romance is the top selling single genre at something like 22% of the market, so all the snobs can keep on blabbing until their Internet is cut off.


----------



## garza (Jul 16, 2010)

I'm curious about that 22 per cent. Is that worldwide, North America, U.S., or where? And is that 22 per cent of dollar value at retail, at wholesale, or in production investment? What per cent of bound books of all types are romance? And what about ebooks? 

No doubt there are many romance novels published each year, but any kind of number like that needs to be defined and the source cited. My feeling is, and I may well be wrong, that romance novels are a very small part of world book production.

On the other hand, the individual who makes a living turning them out sees the romance novels as significant, and understandably so.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa (Jul 16, 2010)

I believe it refers to either the North American or English markets in terms of pure dollars. I'll try to dig up the source.

I've seen numbers from 17% to 33%.

And here is one source: http://dearauthor.com/wordpress/2007/11/14/romance-books-comprise-21-of-the-631b-book-industry/


----------



## RomanticRose (Jul 16, 2010)

Garza, here are a couple of articles about the North American bookselling market in general and the place of romance novels in that marketplace.  

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/28/romance-novel-sales-boomi_n_208796.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/08/books/08roma.html

Have a lovely day.  I'm off to shower with my steel wool loofah.


----------



## garza (Jul 16, 2010)

Here is what appears to be a reliable source for figures through the end of 2008. I didn't look further, as this should be a good enough indicator of the overall strength of the romance novel. Some digging should bring up the figures for 2009 and through second quarter 2010.
----------
source:
http://www.rwanational.org/cs/the_romance_genre/romance_literature_statistics/industry_statistics

Romance Literature Statistics: Industry Statistics
2008 ROMStat Report
............
Not only did romance fiction generate $1.37 billion in sales in 2008, but also it remained the largest share of the consumer market at 13.5 percent. R.R. Bowker’s Books In Print shows 7,311 new romance titles were published in the United States in 2008 (out of a total 275,232 new titles). With 7,311 new romances published in one year, “no fiction category can rival romance in terms of sheer size.”*
.............
*Norris, Michael, Warren Pawlowski, eds. Business of Consumer Book Publishing 2009. (Stamford: Simba Information, 2009), 175

--------------------

That's impressive. Just the U.S. market generated 1.37 billion in 2008. Romance novels are said to be very popular in Australia as well, so we may well see The Backward Ox becoming a Harlequin star.


----------



## RomanticRose (Jul 16, 2010)

found one more.   I had to find my last Torstar e-newsletter.  Torstar is Harlequin's parent company.

http://www.torstar.com/userfiles/file/2010/Harlequin.pdf


----------



## Foxee (Jul 16, 2010)

RomanticRose said:


> Foxee, I really just thought you were serious when you said you hadn't completely ruled it out and just wanted to give you more complete info.  But really, the part about it being easy to figure out the plot -- it's supposed to be that way.  If it were different, all the "H" fans would run screaming to Avon before you could say plot twist.


 I appreciate it! Nope, it's not my thing to read but it doesn't mean I wouldn't write it.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa (Jul 16, 2010)

Found this applicable blog post recently:

http://www.staciakane.net/2010/07/15/what-are-we-afraid-of/


----------



## RomanticRose (Jul 16, 2010)

Foxee said:


> I appreciate it! Nope, it's not my thing to read but it doesn't mean I wouldn't write it.



It's not my preferred genre to read, either.  But I read/studied a great gob of them before I could write my first one that got accepted.


----------



## garza (Jul 16, 2010)

*'be a sex-writing strumpet'* blares one of the tag lines on that blog you sent me to. Interestingly enough, the two posts I read there are about a subject over which I've had, in diplomatic terms, 'meaningful discussions in which divergent opinions were expressed and defended with vigor'. On one occasion the police were called and I had to share the cost of replacing the broken furniture with the person with whom I was having the discussion.

The subject: Is writing art? I've always said I'm not an artist. I know nothing about art. Writing for me is a craft, like carpentry, and I've always tried to be a good craftsman. However, creative writing with literary merit can be defended as an art, and most creative writers consider it so.

Earlier this year I produced a report on food security and nutrition, a work of a bit over 60 thousand words along with half a dozen log frames and a sample value chain analysis. Was that art? Certainly not. Literature? No. It was a piece of craftwork. Will it be long remembered? Probably not. Will it make a difference? It already has. 

So on the one hand we have creative artists producing literary masterpieces that keep being read for hundreds of years. On the other hand we have craftwork like my FNSC report intended to have a 'here and now' impact but not something to be read for the excitement of it. 

But where does that leave the romance novels, the westerns, the detective novels? Much of the so-called 'genre' literature is turned out like so much sausage, each bit flavoured exactly the same as the one before and the one after. All writing is craftwork, but is the romance novel also art? 

Can such books be dismissed as mass produced pot boilers of no real value, or do they have a more profound cultural and sociological meaning? Who reads them, and why? 

Beyond the dollars, how important are such works as the romance novels?

I don't know. I'm asking.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa (Jul 17, 2010)

For someone who claims not to know much about fiction, you've sure got a negative opinion about it.  There are Romance novelists who write strictly for the money and don't read in the genre.  And there are Romance novelists who take their work very seriously.  The same could be said of most genres, although Romance writing probably contains the largest population of the former category.

I read an enormous amount of genre literature, particularly in the area of SF/F.  There are plenty of books that rival literary fiction in terms of artistic merit.  Of course, Sturgeon's Law still applies.


----------



## garza (Jul 17, 2010)

For sure my taste in fiction is limited. The only fantasy writer I've been able to read was Tolkien. Every other fantasy novel I've tried to read had me bored out of my skull by the end of the first page. Rowland is good because Harry Potter is well-crafted political, social, and religious satire, almost on a level with Swift. Almost. I have read very little science fiction. 

My favourite authors from late childhood have been Faulkner, Malraux, Hemmingway, Joyce, and about a dozen others of that type. More recently I've put Gabriel García Márquez at the top of my list, maybe not above Faulkner but certainly Faulkner's equal. 

I enjoy reading good fiction, and would like to be able to say that I can write it, at least a little. Whether I can learn to do that or not I don't know. From a practical standpoint it's of no importance.

And if you'll look back at the end of my previous post, you'll see that I do recognise my own ignorance on the subject of romance novels and whether that kind of writing is important beyond the money.


----------



## RomanticRose (Jul 17, 2010)

The readership seems to think so.  Women devour the things.  They may not be as noble as non-fiction, but surely bringing enjoyment to the reader has some value.  They're escapist fiction, but if you took all the escapist fiction off the bookshelves, the average bookstore would fit into a cheap motel room.


----------



## garza (Jul 17, 2010)

I don't know if there's anything 'noble' about non-fiction. I get stacks of books and reports and policy papers sent to me every month by various government and non-governmental agencies. 90 per cent of it is a shameful waste of timber and time. 

What, exactly, are the readers looking for? You mention it's escapist fiction. The value of that will have to be explained to me. Read 'Darkness at Noon' or 'Man's Fate' and you will not escape the world, you will gain a better understanding of it. Should not good literature do that for us, help us to understand better the world we live in, understand better how it came to be? 

We read Catullus because he can still reach across the centuries and touch us where we live. I don't want to escape from this world, I want to continue to understand it better. And this kind of writing represented by the romance novels is a part of the world I do not understand. 

Explain it for me. And hurry, I'm old.


----------



## RomanticRose (Jul 17, 2010)

Wild concept here, so hold on to your hat.  Maybe, just maybe, not everyone reads for the same reasons you do.

Harry Potter may be chockfull of social commentary, but I'll bet most of the target audience didn't read it for that.  The read it because it's a fun ride.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa (Jul 17, 2010)

http://bookclubs.barnesandnoble.com...w-the-Downside-Saga-is-Redefining/ba-p/578921

Read that, Garza.  That's what commercial fiction is about.  The best of it is just as good at social commentary as litfic, and occasionally better.


----------



## garza (Jul 17, 2010)

The ten-year-olds who've been reading Harry Potter because it's a 'fun ride' will be the people making decisions about how the world is run 30 years or so from now. They may not clearly remember the details, but my bet is they will understand the concepts.

edit - I didn't see the link before I posted the lines above. 

Every time I try to get at the truth people take it that I'm trying to put down what others believe. I grew up in a house full of debaters. We had Jews, Atheists, and about five kinds of Christians in the immediate family. By now I wouldn't be surprised if there are some Taoists (I lean in that direction myself.) and Muslims among the grandchildren. We constantly debated religion and politics and economics. Everybody was expected to take a position and defend it as well as possible until he saw alternatives. As children we were expected to question everything we were told, to accept nothing at face value. I am accustomed to using argument as a way of getting at the truth. 

I genuinely want to know, to understand, to grasp, the importance of these types of literature I've never had the time or inclination to investigate. Now I do have the time and I do have the inclination but my questions are taken as attacks. 

I have bookmarked the links, but beyond that I will look no further here for help in understanding those kinds of writing with which I've had little experience. I will study on my own to find their value.


----------



## RomanticRose (Jul 17, 2010)

I'm sure you're quite correct.  Have a lovely life.  Toodles.


----------



## garza (Jul 17, 2010)

I would have thought you of all people would have wanted to help me understand.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa (Jul 17, 2010)

I don't see any attacks, but good luck in your personal investigations.


----------



## garza (Jul 17, 2010)

It occurs to me that if 'I genuinely want to know, to understand, to grasp, the importance of these types of literature...' I'm going to have to read some of it myself. So I am asking for one more bit of help. What do you recommend I read?


----------



## Foxee (Jul 17, 2010)

Geez, Garza, where to start? Read this forum http://www.writingforums.com/forumdisplay.php?85-Published-Works and this forum http://www.writingforums.com/forumdisplay.php?21-Books-amp-Authors and this thread http://www.writingforums.com/showthread.php?23467-What-are-you-reading. Browse in a bookstore. Browse in a library. Browse on Amazon. How can any of us tell you what you'll like? Commercial fiction is like ice cream...it comes in lots of flavors and some of it even has candy in it. Not everyone likes the same thing.

Getting back to romance, it's my understanding that within the romance genre there are publishers who want different levels of 'smut' or some not at all. Just like mystery...there's a big difference between cozies and hard-boiled detective fiction.

Why worry so much about what is art and what is not when there's a whole world of writing to be immersed in? I get impatient with too much navel-gazing...at some point don't we just have to make our choices and just get on with it?

I appreciate the market info on romance, Rose, I may just have to give this a shot.


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jul 17, 2010)

> Getting back to romance, it's my understanding that within the romance  genre there are publishers who want different levels of 'smut' or some  not at all.


I've seen ebook/POD publisher's sites where there's a rating sytem like how hot are chile sauces or dishes on the menu of a Szuchuan restaurant.

Go for the Five Phallus rating if you dare.


----------



## RomanticRose (Jul 17, 2010)

Harlequin has different lines ranging from the Christian romance line to the Desire line.  All the formats are available at 

eharlequin.com

They get very specific and if you submit a ms to the wrong line, they do not re-route it for you.


----------



## Foxee (Jul 17, 2010)

You naughty, naughty boy. I think you just want a starring role...or the cover art. I have been very carefully NOT clicking the link in your sig ever since it started advertising nudie self-portraits!


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jul 17, 2010)

Go ahead, lead a sheltered life if you dare


----------



## Foxee (Jul 17, 2010)

RomanticRose said:


> Harlequin has different lines ranging from the Christian romance line to the Desire line.  All the formats are available at
> 
> eharlequin.com
> 
> They get very specific and if you submit a ms to the wrong line, they do not re-route it for you.


I've read that. It really goes back to the more general idea that anyone who wants to sell their work (or anything else for that matter) needs to research their market. Approach the wrong market with the wrong writing and you can save a stamp and just line the birdcage with the manuscript.


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jul 17, 2010)

It's too bad more publishers don't work like that (presumably becaue their readership doesn't work like that?).  It would sure be easier for writers to have a checklist.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa (Jul 17, 2010)

Lin, in some ways I think it would, but in others not so much.

Not all genres work quite like Romance.  Maybe mystery, but certainly not SF/F.


----------



## seigfried007 (Jul 19, 2010)

It's about writing what you can live with so that you can keep living. Nothing wrong with money. 

The line is drawn at lying and obscenity, apparently, for many people. To write what you do not believe in, what you think is trash, what you think is blasphemy, will hurt you even if it helps your wallet. Money isn't everything even if it does pay bills. Some checks are worth walking away from.

Romance is one of those genres I have difficulty with. Huge readership, money to be had. I've tried writing for money in that spectrum but I always get sidetracked and the project fizzle and dies or becomes a sci-fi/fantasy.


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jul 19, 2010)

Writing trash can be huge fun, actually.


----------



## seigfried007 (Jul 19, 2010)

Can be, but it's also a huge drain on me when I try to do it for projects longer than flash.


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jul 19, 2010)

But you can do flash trash with panache for cash?


----------



## garza (Jul 19, 2010)

Foxee - I've found some good stuff on my own, but your recommendations for the other areas here are a big help also. 

seigfried007 - I think you understand where I'm coming from. I love writing, and there's nothing wrong with making money doing what you live, so long as you don't violate your own standards.

Lin - I'm not sure I'd have any fun deliberately writing trash. I've probably written enough accidentally without needing to go there on purpose. 

On the matter of researching markets, you don't know tight until you've spent some time dealing with the niche market magazines, newsletters, and such publications aimed at a very narrow demographic. They can be a steady source of income but only if what you submit is precisely on target.

Writing for some agencies requires a special kind of care. If I write a paper for FAO titled 'Potatoes Can Grow in Dirt' it goes to Rome where a team of agronomists will study the concept, look up all my references, and decide whether or not to recommend that the paper be accepted. In most of what I do, the writing not only must suit the market but must also be well researched and documented.

This is why I see fiction as easy. If I say Joe had rice and beans with stewed chicken for lunch, I don't need to provide a reference.

Lin - What is the length limit for flash fiction, and what are the other requirements that make it flash fiction and not just a scrap of typing?


----------



## RM Americano (Jul 20, 2010)

I think to be a real artist, and a succesful one, a degree of arrogance is required.  That arrogance is rewarded and substantiated when you are paid for your work.


----------



## RomanticRose (Jul 20, 2010)

garza said:


> This is why I see fiction as easy.



I think most people see what they_ don't do_ as easy.  

I write a lot of articles (travel mags, horsey mags, local/regional stories, glbt community, eaterie reviews, book reviews, some writing stuff, etc) and those seem easy compared to fiction, to me.  All the information is there.  It's more a matter or compiling it and proofreading.  There's no creative juices flowing.


----------

