# Seventy years on - Salute our flag



## JustRob (Oct 23, 2015)

Tomorrow, Saturday 24th October 2015, the United Nations charter will have been in force for seventy years so, regardless of any national allegiances we may have, I think that we should all salute the flag of the senior forum. United Nations Day is the day when everyone is encouraged to fly the one flag, the blue and white, especially this year. Of course the proper protocols have to be observed. For example, that flag must never be flown lower than any other alongside it.

The UN has come in for both praise and criticism, but a forum is only as good as its members make it and that is all the UN is, a forum just like this one. Also it was born out of conflict to resolve conflicts. It is said that maybe Dag Hammarskjöld expressed it best when he said that "the United Nations was not created to bring us to heaven, but in order to save us from hell." I was born in London under the hellfire rain of V2 missiles on the 24th October 1944, so I agree with that. For me the UN was a very special first birthday present and I wonder what the world would have been like today without it. Of course as a child I got the inevitable national indoctrination at school and, as the British Empire was no more, the talk was all about the Commonwealth and the UN never got a mention, so I didn't understand why the flags were always flown on my birthday.

So, if anyone has anything nice to say about the UN please post it here, but how many of us can point to something in our lives that it directly affected? How many of us are too engrossed in our national allegiances to recognise what it does? Here's my very small but representative personal contribution.

Not many years after the partition of Cyprus between the Greeks and Turks my angel and I were contemplating taking a holiday there, but there were no tourist guides available for the island because of the troubles, so I went to the library and read the annals of the UN to discover what the situation was. I discovered that the UN put in a lot of patient effort over the years to stabilise the organisation of the island as its economy had been destroyed by partition and the essential tourism industry ruined. Tourists are very fickle people. Consider what just one rampaging gunman has done to the tourism in Tunisia recently. As another example, the north of the Republic of Ireland is a popular destination for anglers, but many were put off in the past by reports of the troubles in "Northern Ireland" even though that was a different place across the border. I am not immune to such prejudice. Someone recently tried to encourage my angel and I to visit email friends in the USA, but it's quite evident to us that the country is rife with madmen toting guns. Anyway, if we were to contemplate a holiday abroad Tunisia is much closer and the prices there have probably dropped significantly.

Returning to Cyprus, not that we are likely to, reassured by the UN reports we spent a very enjoyable holiday there in what was described in Vogue magazine (I read it in my dentist's waiting room some time later.) as the best hotel on the island. It had been built in a remote southern corner near a quiet village by experienced Greek hoteliers evicted from Famagusta by the Turks. Some years later a Greek Cypriot in London told us that he didn't enjoy visiting his homeland any more because partition had resulted in all the tourism being compacted into the Greek coast while the Turkish side had very little. Maybe now with Turkey wanting to join the EU the issue of Cyprus will finally get resolved.

That holiday in Cyprus was just the tip of an iceberg for us. We'll probably never know just how much the UN has done for our lives. Do you?


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## Riis Marshall (Oct 23, 2015)

Hello Rob

Yep - talking is better than killing, even if it means sometimes talking with somebody you don't like very much.

All the best with your writing.

Warmest regards
Riis


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## LadsandtheClassics (Oct 23, 2015)

Since The League of Nations' creation (I'll count it as the UN) there have been 248 different wars.

Nice job, "peace" organisation.


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## Terry D (Oct 23, 2015)

LadsandtheClassics said:


> Since The League of Nations' creation (I'll count it as the UN) there have been 248 different wars.
> 
> Nice job, "peace" organisation.



How many were avoided? How many had their duration reduced, their violence contained to some degree? That's like saying traffic laws are ineffective because people still die on the roads. It's impossible to measure what doesn't occur. The UN isn't perfect, but point me toward one organization that is.


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## escorial (Oct 23, 2015)

UN is like taking a dust pan and brush to an earthquake hit place..nice idea but just a place were suits earn a good living


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## AtleanWordsmith (Oct 23, 2015)

All right, guys, let's play nice.  We've got a policy against debates here, so please don't turn this into one.

Thanks.


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## LeeC (Oct 23, 2015)

Not debating, questioning. In a finite space where resources are being diminished, how can conflict for survival be avoided? The UN is a first step in intention, but yet a baby step dependent on humankind's needs and proclivities.


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## JustRob (Oct 23, 2015)

AtleanWordsmith said:


> All right, guys, let's play nice.  We've got a policy against debates here, so please don't turn this into one.
> 
> Thanks.



Thanks, Dubs. I certainly never intended this to become a debate and specifically asked only for nice remarks. I also mentioned that the UN is simply a forum, one accepted by almost every part of humanity, or at least their representatives, grudgingly or willingly. For that reason any criticism must be directed at humanity itself and I won't even start on that subject. I'm old enough now to be losing interest in what sort of mess humanity is building for the future, but I just think that having somewhere to talk about it in civilised suits waving pens rather than in body armour waving guns can't be a bad thing. Neither works without the other of course. Humanity now has the power to destroy itself with its weapons or make something better of itself within the UN. Personally, somewhere between those two I've had seventy good years and I'm grateful to whoever it was who made that possible. I've never understood humanity at large but the UN does seem to have been one of their brighter ideas, no matter how badly they've implemented it so far. At least it still exists.


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## LadsandtheClassics (Oct 23, 2015)

The UN calls for Human Rights when all five members of the Security Council are vile war criminals.

Russia: Homophobic, xenophobic, invaded two countries, shot down a plane.
France: Racist.
UK: Sells weapons to terrorists.
US: Helps terrorists, invades countries and installs corrupt dictatorships, legalises paedophilia in Afghanistan, corrupt.
China: Slavery.

I mean seriously, there are countries in the UN where women wear Hijabs and homosexuality is LITERALLY a crime.

I have nothing positive to say. UNESCO and UNICEF have been proven to be scams (many countries have opted out), all the UN does right now is bomb muslims, steal water from Africans and give money to Chinese slavers and mad Zionists in Israel.


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## shadowwalker (Oct 23, 2015)

I'm in favor of any organization that at least tries to mitigate damages, rather than people just complaining about nobody doing anything (but never seem to notice they're not either).


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## AtleanWordsmith (Oct 23, 2015)

*I WAS NOT MAKING A SUGGESTION.

THE RULES OF THIS FORUM SPECIFICALLY FORBID CONTENTIOUS POSTING AND BAITING.  CONSIDER THIS A WARNING.  PLEASE STOP, NOW.

*


			
				The Rules said:
			
		

> *Trolling or Baiting: *Unnecessarily contentious posts, or posts intended to incite flaming, will not be tolerated. Offending posts will be removed, and the poster warned in the first instance. Repeated offenses will result in the poster being temporarily or permanently banned. Posts which attack, demean, or breach the international standards against unfair discrimination of any person or group of people will be treated as baits.


*

*


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## Deleted member 56686 (Oct 23, 2015)

AND I ALSO MUST REITERATE THAT THIS IS NOT A THREAD AS A LICENSE TO INVITE DEBATE. WE DO NOT WANT TO OPEN THIS FORUM TO PERSONAL ATTACKS

Any more contentious posts and this thread will be closed!


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## JustRob (Oct 23, 2015)

mrmustard615 said:


> Any more contentious posts and this thread will be closed!


With my blessing!​


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## Bishop (Oct 23, 2015)

>.>

<.<

I'm just really hoping that someday we get to celebrate United Federation of Planets day. That's what I'm aiming toward.


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## JustRob (Oct 23, 2015)

Bishop said:


> >.>
> 
> <.<
> 
> I'm just really hoping that someday we get to celebrate United Federation of Planets day. That's what I'm aiming toward.



Do you really think they'll let us join it then? Bear in mind that pretty well every flawed race devised in science fiction has been based on human traits. C. S. Lewis in his stories identified the Earth as being "the silent planet", the outcast from the solar system cut off from any communication with the races on other planets. Maybe they are there really and it's only the net of deception enveloping our planet created by them which gives us the impression that we're alone. Now there's a plot for your next novel for free, a galactic version of the TV series "The Prisoner". Why are we apparently alone in the universe? Maybe just because we deserve to be. 

*Klaatu barada nikto*


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## Bishop (Oct 23, 2015)

JustRob said:


> Do you really think they'll let us join it then? Bear in mind that pretty well every flawed race devised in science fiction has been based on human traits. C. S. Lewis in his stories identified the Earth as being "the silent planet", the outcast from the solar system cut off from any communication with the races on other planets. Maybe they are there really and it's only the net of deception enveloping our planet created by them which gives us the impression that we're alone. Now there's a plot for your next novel for free, a galactic version of the TV series "The Prisoner". Why are we apparently alone in the universe? Maybe just because we deserve to be.
> 
> *Klaatu barada nikto*



Hah! Within that post, you listed so many things I love. "The Prisoner"... so classic. As for human-like aliens, while I generally operate in the realm of humanoid aliens, I do have a plethora of beings that I intentionally try to make as outside-the-box creatively as I can. Evolutionary marvels, non-corporeal, beings that are made up of other beings... some of my universe gets pretty weird.


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## JustRob (Oct 23, 2015)

Bishop said:


> Hah! Within that post, you listed so many things I love. "The Prisoner"... so classic. As for human-like aliens, while I generally operate in the realm of humanoid aliens, I do have a plethora of beings that I intentionally try to make as outside-the-box creatively as I can. Evolutionary marvels, non-corporeal, beings that are made up of other beings... some of my universe gets pretty weird.



They may still have fundamentally human traits though, humanity having been so inventive in its ways.

A special thank you for liking that post of mine as you've just clocked up my 1000th reputation point in time for my birthday tomorrow which, as I mentioned originally, I share with the UN albeit a year offset. Thanks for the present then.

Okay mods, mission achieved. You can kill the thread now. Am I deviantous or what?


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## PhunkyMunky (Oct 23, 2015)

I in general dislike the UN, but I'm going to play nice. 

In 1998 I was deployed to Bosnia as a part of the UN Peacekeeping force. It was a nervous deployment. Bosnia had an uncountable amount of land mines. At least 10 million known and I got to listen to the engineers and Explosive Ordinance Disposal guys blow them up all day every day. I did security for details that were finding and exhuming mass graves, marking them so that these poor souls could be laid to rest properly. I did presence patrols, I planted ground sensors, I did surveillance on Persons Indicted for War Crimes who I am happy to saw found themselves behind bars. 

It was a worthwhile mission. One that I felt, within my very soul, was right. I had no need to commit violence there, the people were friendly and loved us. We couldn't get very far down the road without someone stopping us to give us cookies, cake, or coffee.  They were genuinely grateful that this war had been stopped and they showed it as affectionately as they could. 

I will always remember that deployment with fondness. There were a lot of heartbreaking stories from there, and even a few moments of the same, but it made me all the more glad that I was there. We didn't wear Blue Helmets, but we had UN in large white letters on the sides of our Humvees and the children would always point excitedly and shout "OOh Enn!" 

If more deployments could be like that... If only they could. I'll not salute the UN flag. My flag is the American Flag and I owe my allegiance to Her only. But I do have one fond memory of the UN and a peacekeeping mission.


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## JustRob (Oct 23, 2015)

PhunkyMunky said:


> If more deployments could be like that... If only they could. I'll not salute the UN flag. My flag is the American Flag and I owe my allegiance to Her only. But I do have one fond memory of the UN and a peacekeeping mission.



Understood, so I salute you and all the others who have represented the spirit of the UN as you did. Most of us never directly get that opportunity. That is all it is after all, a means by which established countries can act for a common cause. It is what we make it, so we are effectively saluting ourselves for coping with our own problems as a responsible intelligent species. It can take little blame for what goes wrong nor much credit for what goes right. It is simply ourselves reflected in a mirror of our own making. The important thing is that we made that mirror. It's not a bad thing to take a good look at ourselves in the mirror occasionally and perhaps we ought to salute what we see there or else change what causes it to look undesirable. We know that it is only an illusion and not the complete reality, but it does tell us something about ourselves.

If I were a good writer I might put it better, but we all need the practice, especially the UN.


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## PhunkyMunky (Oct 23, 2015)

I can easily accept the higher ideals that sometimes shine through. There is a darker side to it which I disagree with, but I'll not place them here in debate. There are other places more suited to such, but when the Nations come together to stop atrocity, to ease suffering, and to... Actually make the world a better place, it's a wonderful thing to be a part of. 

I met Russians and even traded uniforms, boots, things from home with them. I met soldiers from Ireland, Denmark, France, Italy, oh so many of them! All courageous and wonderful in their own right. All proud of their homeland and willing to discuss the differences between us in an open and friendly manner. The Russians even got us drunk! Playing pool, not understanding a word each of us said to each other, but getting along and having a good time. I learned then, when your glass is empty and you wish no more to drink, turn it over! Otherwise, you'll never see the bottom of your glass. It was a fun time. 

Eating local fare and drinking their ales and spirits was likewise a lot of fun. I was introduced to Turkish Coffee, Rakija (a plum brandy), a fiery substance I think was called Slivovic, and their women were among the most beautiful I had ever seen, on a case by case basis that is. I also experienced thunder and lightning during a snow storm, which was a strange and exciting first for me. 

If the world wasn't such a crappy place like it has been this past fourteen years, I'd go back to visit in a heartbeat, family in tow.


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## dale (Oct 23, 2015)

i'm kind of hoping an asteroid will hit the UN headquarters in NYC and do this country a favor.


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## popsprocket (Oct 23, 2015)

dale said:


> i'm kind of hoping an asteroid will hit the UN headquarters in NYC and do this country a favor.



But then CNN would just report it as a terrorist attack, the hard right wing would increase their zeal, Donald Trump would win the election, and then probably start a third world war by attacking Mexico and Russia simultaneously.

Tell me you wan that to happen.


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## dale (Oct 23, 2015)

popsprocket said:


> But then CNN would just report it as a terrorist attack, the hard right wing would increase their zeal, Donald Trump would win the election, and then probably start a third world war by attacking Mexico and Russia simultaneously.
> 
> Tell me you wan that to happen.



lol. well, i think the so-called "hard-right" already ordered that hurricane to attack mexico, anyway.


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## J Anfinson (Oct 24, 2015)

I've edited this thread to remove debating. From now on, address the OP only and don't argue with each other or I'll lock the thread. This is the last warning.


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## JustRob (Oct 24, 2015)

PhunkyMunky said:


> I can easily accept the higher ideals that sometimes shine through. There is a darker side to it which I disagree with, but I'll not place them here in debate. There are other places more suited to such, but when the Nations come together to stop atrocity, to ease suffering, and to... Actually make the world a better place, it's a wonderful thing to be a part of.
> 
> I met Russians and even traded uniforms, boots, things from home with them. I met soldiers from Ireland, Denmark, France, Italy, oh so many of them! All courageous and wonderful in their own right. All proud of their homeland and willing to discuss the differences between us in an open and friendly manner. The Russians even got us drunk! Playing pool, not understanding a word each of us said to each other, but getting along and having a good time. I learned then, when your glass is empty and you wish no more to drink, turn it over! Otherwise, you'll never see the bottom of your glass. It was a fun time.
> 
> ...



Yes, the UN is crawling with diplomats and politicians, but they represent real countries as well as those high ideals, not an easy balancing task. There's a line in my novel, which somehow covers everything imaginable in a way, where someone mentions that the border between reality and fiction isn't crowded with writers or anyone like that but diplomats signing agreements full of ambiguities. The structure of the UN is also historically biased and it will be difficult to dislodge the old guard as the need arises, so things won't get any better soon, but it's the best we have for now. At least there's a baseline to work from, doing something with UN approval or without. I can't and won't defend what the UN does in practice, only what it is allegedly trying to do.

Humanity is still quite tribal and that's not a bad thing in essence, but as you've discovered what is needed is to preserve those tribal differences while overcoming the indifferences that cause suffering. If we were all the same the tourism industry would really suffer and that's no small thing nowadays, being a way of redistributing wealth without resorting to outright charitable aid. 

By sheer coincidence I received today a copy of my old boarding school's annual magazine. Before anyone smells a privileged life there I should mention that it is a charity school, a quite unique one. There was a substantial article in it about the school's involvement in the Model United Nations project, something that happens in colleges around the world, where scholars follow all the practices used in the UN to debate and resolve international issues amongst themselves. Apparently they did rather well in the exercise against other schools. They did happen to be representing, amongst other countries, the USA, but I doubt that that made their task any easier by any means. The majority of the pupils at my school come from disadvantaged and underprivileged backgrounds, which may explain how they understand well what it means to cope with living in harmony within a large varied community with limited resources. The school has a long history and some claim that the teachers from it were responsible for the creation of the earliest educational system in Pennsylvania. The future of this planet belongs to all these young people. I just hope we pass on something that isn't too distorted for them to sort out. Seventy years is a short time. At all levels the UN is a learning process with a long way to go, so we shouldn't be in too much of a hurry to mark the examination papers.

I will restate my original request, that if anyone has personal experience, either direct or indirect such as mine, of activities of the UN which have affected their life then this is the place to post it. It isn't intended to be a general soapbox for making a stand but it is only fair that people be allowed to relate their experiences both good and bad, if they wish. The moderators have endorsed my view on this and allowed the thread to resume on this basis. I'm sure they'll say if I've got that wrong.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Oct 24, 2015)

Okay, the thread is open for business again. Please stay on the intent of the OP. Thanks.


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## EmmaSohan (Oct 24, 2015)

It's wonderful to bring a young child to the United Nations building and show them where the world debates its problems. And see all the flags from every country in a row and treated equally.

I know reality falls somewhere between that being a fact and just an ideal -- but it's a wonderful ideal.


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## JustRob (Oct 24, 2015)

On the subject of visiting the UN in Manhattan, I've always wondered whether it is possible to go there without legally entering the USA. I mean, it does have a coastline, doesn't it? Just curious about its status, that's all. Not all of us have diplomatic immunity but it ought to be an open house, so to speak, shouldn't it?

By the way, did you know that the old word for a democratic assembly of the people was a _thing? _Well, there's a _thing_, the UN building I mean.


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## Pluralized (Oct 24, 2015)

JustRob said:


> They may still have fundamentally human traits though, humanity having been so inventive in its ways.
> 
> A special thank you for liking that post of mine as you've just clocked up my 1000th reputation point in time for my birthday tomorrow which, as I mentioned originally, I share with the UN albeit a year offset. Thanks for the present then.
> 
> Okay mods, mission achieved. You can kill the thread now. Am I deviantous or what?



Happy Birthday Rob - Hope it's a great day.

Most people I know have no idea what the UN does, nor its value in the global scene. So there isn't a lot of flag-saluting going on 'round here. But I personally am encouraged to learn more about their place in the world and what exactly it is that they do. For the vast majority of Americans, our news comes through several filters and we have to do a lot of de-bullshitting to know what is actual and what has been spun. I do know it's a globalized culture we live in and much of the fervor surrounding nationalism and xenophobia has been muted to the dismay of white-haired denizens of the affluent areas of the US. 

Good times, thanks for this thread. My name is Plurps and I am a child of the 80s and was indoctrinated under the fear of communism just like my parents were. Shook it off, thankfully. Anyway happy birthday matey.


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## Lewdog (Oct 24, 2015)

Happy Birthday Rob, save me a piece of the cake.  You can send it to my address at 1313 Mockingbird Lane, Anytown U.S.A.

Funny line edited from here.  You'll just have to trust me it was funny.


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## JustRob (Oct 24, 2015)

Pluralized said:


> My name is Plurps and I am a child of the 80s and was indoctrinated under the fear of communism just like my parents were. Shook it off, thankfully. Anyway happy birthday matey.



Thanks Plurps. You shook off communism? Really? Don't you realise that it only failed because it wasn't a closed system? People saw what was going on outside and were dissatisfied. Next time it will engulf the whole planet and there will be no outside to disrupt it, so be afraid, be very afraid. The disruption will then come from another source, the fact that in a society where the aim is total egalitarianism nobody can ever beat the system and that means that all hope will die, and we cannot live without hope. Let's face it, no matter how egalitarian we profess to be we all want to beat the system, to win that lottery or whatever, even if only to choose who we are egalitarian towards. Yes, the best policy is to share and share unlike. In that case how can one possibly criticise the UN? 

Is it time to close the thread again yet? At least this anniversary only lasts one day. That's one international day, which actually extends across 48 hours. Work it out. It's Saturday somewhere in the world for 48 consecutive hours and the same goes for every other day of the week. It's amazing that they all fit in the time available.


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## Pluralized (Oct 24, 2015)

Nope, shook off the fear of systems and cultures different from mine.


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## JustRob (Oct 24, 2015)

Pluralized said:


> Nope, shook off the fear of systems and cultures different from mine.



We're all the same under the skin. I once asked a devout muslim whether kangaroo was halaal or haram and she just laughed.



Lewdog said:


> Happy Birthday Rob, save me a piece of the cake.  You can send it to my address at 1313 Mockingbird Lane, Anytown U.S.A.
> 
> Funny line edited from here.  You'll just have to trust me it was funny.



Thanks. The best jokes are often the ones that you keep to yourself and the ones where the joker and the recipient know nothing of each other. Some are just clever graffiti but there are others, even ones that are a pleasant surprise to someone, but someone one will never meet. Humour is an absolute quality, not just an interaction between parties.

My favourite unseen joke in my novel is the one about the character who thinks he is travelling somewhere but actually ends up somewhere else because I changed the plot during a rewrite without him knowing. Of course the reader doesn't know why he's confused, so it's just my hidden joke with myself.


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## ismith (Oct 30, 2015)

Well, in regards to the UN, there's that bit about absolute power corrupting absolutely.  As the Irish say, "Oro Se Do Bheatha Bhaile", but I'm just a gun-toting madman. I do agree with you about communism however.


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## JustRob (Oct 30, 2015)

ismith said:


> Well, in regards to the UN, there's that bit about absolute power corrupting absolutely.  As the Irish say, "Oro Se Do Bheatha Bhaile", but I'm just a gun-toting madman. I do agree with you about communism however.



I'm doubtful that the UN itself has any real power. It could well be just a sock puppet, but if so whose is another matter. My reference to gun-toting madmen in America was to illustrate how media influences affect our perception of what's happening in the world. We all see it distorted from inside our own fish-bowls. Maybe, just maybe, a few people inside the UN can see the overall picture more clearly from a different vantage point. Whatever they do about it they're bound to upset someone though. Tough job.


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## ismith (Oct 30, 2015)

Your absolutely right about the media.


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## Guy Faukes (Oct 30, 2015)

After reading Romeo Dallaire's autobiographical "Shake Hands with the Devil", I've become pretty cynical when it comes to all things UN related. Still, you have a point. They do a lot of things for us and stand as humanity's best attempt at unity, with warts, scars and all.


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