# Does It Pay to Be a Writer?



## lvcabbie (Jan 9, 2019)

​  I think most of us here realistically know it doesn’t. We scratch and struggle to find a publisher and, unless we’re among the rich and famous who get Ungodly sums in advances, we go nowhere. Or, get sucked in by unscrupulous publishers who offer us entry into the world of being a published author. For a fee.
​  _In a recent call, Ms. Martin said that “the people who are able to practice the trade of authoring are people who have other sources of income,” adding that this creates barriers of entry and limits the types of stories that reach a wide audience. There is also, she added, a devaluation of writing in which it is often viewed as a hobby as opposed to a valuable vocation._​  “_Everyone thinks they can __write,__ because everybody writes,” Ms. Rasenberger said, referring to the proliferation of casual texting, emailing and tweeting. But she distinguishes these from professional writers “who have been working on their craft and art of writing for years.”_​  “_What a professional writer can convey in __written word is far superior to what the rest of us can do,” Ms. Rasenberger said. “As a society we need that, because it’s a way to crystallize ideas, make us see things in a new way and create understanding__ of who we are as a people, where we are today and where we’re going.”_​  You can read the full piece @ https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/05/books/authors-pay-writer.html​ ​ ​


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## Olly Buckle (Jan 9, 2019)

I always feel it is a bit like music, loads of people write songs (I have written a few myself), a tiny percentage of them stand out and make money at it. Most of us will never get published, most of those published will have a very limited success.


On the other hand I dislike the snotty attitude of your Ms Rasenberger and her 'Professional writers who have honed their craft for years'. They may be good for writing newspaper and magazine articles, but what really makes a book is when the author gets something of themselves into it, and that can happen with a complete novice. Sure practice helps, first novels and first published novels are not often the same thing, but it is not what gives a book that stand out quality that means real success; so don't give up!


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## NathanielleC (Jan 9, 2019)

When Neil Gaiman was working on the Neverwhere television series, they had next to no budget for music. But they asked Brian Eno to compose the score and Neil flat out told him that they couldn't pay him. I can't remember the exact quote because Neil talks about it in the commentary and I don't have the DVD on me. But Eno's reply was, "People who do what they love never get paid for it." 

From my personal observations, no author or artist of any kind ever made a direct living off of their actual work. The work they identify themselves with. They usually have to have multiple revenue streams, which means doing things they don't necessarily want to do. PN Elrod for example, reviews manuscripts for publication, which means reading a lot of dreck. The majority of Anne Rice's cash flow came from the tourism industry, which she helped to move by her presence in New Orleans, where much of the Vampire Chronicles took place. And Rice is a woman who was born in poverty. She and her sister had to get crawfish from the river to help her family make ends meet. 

I think even the most experienced of us can see a well known author who has had a few big breaks and forget that this is still a person who needs to put food on the table. Just because we know their name doesn't put them above us financially or artistically.


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## Bloggsworth (Jan 10, 2019)

Hardly ever, almost never.


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## Megan Pearson (Jan 11, 2019)

Does it pay to be a writer? That might depend on what kind of writer are we talking about.

I once had the opportunity to go into journalism. I decided not to, and am glad I didn't, but it seems to me that a journalist can make a living at their craft. English professors, also, must meet some sort of expectation to be published in their specialty, whether it be fiction or poetry, in addition to the scholarly publication, so I think it's safe to say they make some financial gain from it--although how much, I wouldn't know. I've also looked a little into writing copy (I don't think it's my thing), but more recently I have also been looking into doing some freelance writing. Not the most profitable thing around, although I thought it might be fun (notice where I put the priority) and would give me some experience at writing for pay. (But then I woke up and realized I really do need the money, so now I'm going back to my regular career instead. Maybe I'll look into it again when I have more free time.)

Regarding fiction, I followed John Gardner's advice: get a job. Go, live life. Write about it. If you get paid--great! If not, don't worry about it...at the time he wrote, 30+ years ago, (if I remember right) his advice came with the idea that you could make a living in fiction, especially if you worked hard at it and had something worth saying. Today I would add that most people I've read about who do make it into fiction seem to share some common habits:* 

1.* They write _a lot_. (It's not just a daily half-hour hobby, they do this several hours a day, seven days a week, holidays included.)*

2.* Even relatively famous writers seem to retain their day-jobs these days. 
* 
3.* They stay focused on their project. *

4.* They produce. 
* 
5.* They produce _a lot_. *

6.* They successfully self-market their works. (This means developing a platform, an internet presence, and employ a host of marketing skills I don't yet have.)

I'm sure this list can be expanded upon.

Personally, I approach it as art. Art can pay, but that's not why I write. I write because I love writing.


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## Olly Buckle (Jan 11, 2019)

Perseverance certainly helps, I will only make anything by an extreme fluke, I can't be bothered to hassle agents or publishers and write for my own amusement when the mood takes me. People Like Stephen King and Terry Pratchett, when they were still in the regular job, did a day's work then came home and sat down to write a regular amount every night. Terry Pratchett used to write three hundred words a night every night, if he finished a story at two hundred and fifty words he wrote fifty words of the next one, that is two thousand one hundred words a week, every week. Stephen King had a shit job in a laundry, he came home and wrote every night and it just about brought his wages up to a living level, until his agent sold the film rights to 'Carrie'. Making a living is almost impossible at the lower end of the scale, and it is not even going to be an easy way of making a bit extra, you might do better buying a lawn mower or a set of ladders and touring the nearest 'Posh' area offering lawn mowing or window cleaning.

One bit of advice I have read from a number of writers is to put in regular hours and then stop. As one put it, 'Sure you can stop up all night writing, but read it a day later and it is all rubbish and you can throw it away.'


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## Phil Istine (Jan 11, 2019)

Does it pay to be a writer?

Yes, a thousandfold, but it isn't usually financial.
Writing has helped me find my voice after decades of being silenced.

That's worth more to me than a whole chest of gold.


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## midnightpoet (Jan 11, 2019)

If I was doing this for the money, I would have quit a long time ago.  Like Phil Istine, it's done my soul a world of good.  The fact that I've been published is great, but it's not why I keep going.  I can't help it.


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## escorial (Jan 11, 2019)

I've never tried to...like most things you just need a bit of luck I reckon


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## Olly Buckle (Jan 11, 2019)

escorial said:


> I've never tried to...like most things you just need a bit of luck I reckon



Speaks the Scouser, "That John Lennon and Paul Maca were dead lucky, any scouser could have done it if they had had the luck."


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## escorial (Jan 11, 2019)

If John hadn't met Paul at the church fete I could have had John make me a latte today at Costa and Paul might of past me on his bus route into town and I would not have been in woolton today


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## Olly Buckle (Jan 11, 2019)

Exactly, except the past is past so you won't be passed, but if ...


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## escorial (Jan 11, 2019)

but if...future memories


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## JJBuchholz (Jan 13, 2019)

midnightpoet said:


> If I was doing this for the money, I would have quit a long time ago.  Like Phil Istine, it's done my soul a world of good.  The fact that I've been published is great, but it's not why I keep going.  I can't help it.



I feel the same way. 

While I have sent pieces of my work to paid publishers, it's not the driving force behind my writing, and never will be. I write because it's my passion, and also because it's my true calling. Having finally got published late last year (in a non-profit magazine) was an amazing feeling by itself, and adds fuel to my fire. Whether or not I make a few dollars doing what I love doesn't really matter to me. I write to enhance my soul, and share my gift with others.

-JJB


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## Guard Dog (Jan 13, 2019)

I dunno... Does keepin' me off the streets and outta trouble count as "payment"?



G.D.


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## Guard Dog (Jan 13, 2019)

On a more realistic note, if I could convince some damn fool to pay me a nickle a word for what I've done so far, I'd end up with about $15,000 for about 4 -1/2 months of work.

Not exactly gonna rush out an' buy a new Rolls Royce on that kind'a income, but it would certainly make a nice jingle in my pocket.

...the real trick is, findin' that damn fool.


G.D.


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## Olly Buckle (Jan 13, 2019)

I was going to say that I had never got round to submitting work to publishers or agents or made any attempt at profiting by writing, and then I remembered that is not exactly true. When I was about nine or ten I remember asking Mum why she was collecting aluminium milk bottle tops and she replied that it was for 'Blind guide dogs'. I was amused at the idea of a blind dog guiding the blind and she suggested I send it in to the letters page of her magazine. I got letter of the month and won five shillings. Mind in those days there were still sterling silver coins in circulation, so think the equivalent of an ounce of silver, good money for a small boy.


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## moderan (Jan 13, 2019)

A working pro averages about 10K per annum. Almost everyone I know has a full-time job and has been at the writing game for years. There's very little overnight success. (Accidents happen, of course, but there are two endpoints to the curve.)
But everyone can write, right? It takes no skill or training, right?
*eyeroll*



> Having finally got published late last year



In a nutshell.


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## Guard Dog (Jan 13, 2019)

moderan said:


> But everyone can write, right? It takes no skill or training, right?
> *eyeroll*



Yeah, most of us are semi-literate these days.

The real problem is that for every one person that writes like a college professor, there's a thousand more that write like unimaginative 3rd graders.


G.D.


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## Theglasshouse (Jan 13, 2019)

Due to life circumstances I write to please myself. I let people discover my work. Money isn't everything in life. Finding your definition of what happiness consists of is more important. We are not shrinks or psychologists. It's difficult to reason with a person to stop pursuing a passion. If people want to live to be happy, that means many different things. Some people are happy when they feel validated. That may be my case. As someone with a good family and bad family, it makes me think sometimes that some people never cared for my future. So I plod on despite the circumstances.


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## Megan Pearson (Jan 14, 2019)

Theglasshouse said:


> Due to life circumstances I write to please myself. I let people discover my work. Money isn't everything in life. Finding your definition of what happiness consists of is more important. We are not shrinks or psychologists. It's difficult to reason with a person to stop pursuing a passion. If people want to live to be happy, that means many different things. Some people are happy when they feel validated. That may be my case. As someone with a good family and bad family, it makes me think sometimes that some people never cared for my future. So I plod on despite the circumstances.



Yeah, I can sympathize with you there. I've often wondered if I missed my calling by not pursuing a career in journalism, but I was a terribly stubborn and opinionated teen, and probably would not have listened to good advice had it been given. I have suffered for it professionally ever since... Although looking back as an adult, it's easier to realize that those in whom I had to place in my trust were themselves too wrapped up in their own lives to be concerned about my future, so I guess it's a good thing I was terribly stubborn and opinionated. (By the way, I hope the wear and tear of life has tempered some of this down into wisdom and experience--'yep, been thar, done that!'--at the least for the benefit of those willing to read what I write.)

Keep plodding. It's worth it & it brings happiness. :joyous:


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## Cephus (Jan 16, 2019)

Megan Pearson said:


> Personally, I approach it as art. Art can pay, but that's not why I write. I write because I love writing.



That's really how I look at it too.  I write because I can't help myself. I do it because my head will explode if I don't let the stories out.  I know that I have no interest in actually being a writer professionally.  So does my agent.  It helps to have an agent who is a good friend and knows you well.  He says he'll get anything I write published, but he knows that I'd rather kill someone than put up with the stupidity in the publishing marketplace.  For me, it's all about the writing, not about the selling.  I don't care about money or fame or any of that. I couldn't care less if I ever see one of my books on a shelf.  I write for me.  Nothing else really matters.


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## Bayview (Jan 17, 2019)

Cephus said:


> That's really how I look at it too.  I write because I can't help myself. I do it because my head will explode if I don't let the stories out.  I know that I have no interest in actually being a writer professionally.  So does my agent.  It helps to have an agent who is a good friend and knows you well.  He says he'll get anything I write published, but he knows that I'd rather kill someone than put up with the stupidity in the publishing marketplace.  For me, it's all about the writing, not about the selling.  I don't care about money or fame or any of that. I couldn't care less if I ever see one of my books on a shelf.  I write for me.  Nothing else really matters.




I think I'm the opposite of this in almost all ways. I spent the first thirty or more years of my life not writing, and I was fine, so...obviously my skull will maintain structural integrity regardless! I would very much like to be a professional writer, because money can be exchanged for valuable goods and services which I need to sustain my life. And one of the biggest thrills I've had in recent years was seeing my books on a bookstore shelf.

If I wasn't making money from my writing, I'd probably quit writing. I don't think I could ever quit _daydreaming_, coming up with plots and settings and characters, but the writing itself? It's a lot of hard work and cuts into my daydreaming time! If there weren't money in it, I don't think I'd bother.


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## Guard Dog (Jan 17, 2019)

Bayview said:


> If I wasn't making money from my writing, I'd probably quit writing. I don't think I could ever quit _daydreaming_, coming up with plots and settings and characters, but the writing itself? It's a lot of hard work and cuts into my daydreaming time! If there weren't money in it, I don't think I'd bother.



And here's where _I'm_ the exact opposite.

If writing ever became something I had to do to survive, I'm quite sure I'd come to begrudge having to do it, resent it, and eventually find a way out of it.

I'm also sure that due to that, I'd have a harder time daydreaming/imagining different things, different situations/scenarios, and generally being very creative at all, no matter how much time I had to devote to it.

...especially if I had to conform to the dictates of others in order to have any success with it at all.

I am very much writing for _me_. Not money, not approval, and certainly not notoriety.

( I'm convinced the reason it takes George R. R. Martin so long to write a book these days is because he spends too damned much time in front of cameras, doing interviews and such. I suspect if he doesn't get his output/production back up, all his fans and admirers will eventually turn on him, wanting the end of the story far more than they want to hear/see him talk. )


G.D.


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## luckyscars (Jan 17, 2019)

There’s a difference between writing casually and writing professionally. Writing casually, as one night in a diary, shouldn’t be hard work... I don’t really understand how any writer could envision themselves not doing that regardless of pay? I mean, if the skill of writing itself, the formation of words, isn’t at least part of why you do it then why do you choose that as your medium for “daydreaming” in the first place? Why not paint or do improv?

On the flipside I would question the sincerity of anybody who asserts they would write and edit to the same level they do currently if there was zero prospect of financial or critical reward. That seems a little nuts, given how draining it is and how little of the process of writing actually involves sitting down and letting your imagination unfold on a page. Most of it is work, pure and simple. 

If you don’t find a significant portion of it incredibly exhausting and un-fun I wonder if you’re spending enough time on proofreading, editing, revising, researching and all the painful but necessary things or just churning out stuff.


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## Terry D (Jan 17, 2019)

Does it pay to be a writer? For me it does. I let the monsters inside my head out to play for a while and they let me sleep at night.


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## Guard Dog (Jan 17, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> There’s a difference between writing casually and writing professionally. Writing casually, as one night in a diary, shouldn’t be hard work... I don’t really understand how any writer could envision themselves not doing that regardless of pay? I mean, if the skill of writing itself, the formation of words, isn’t at least part of why you do it then why do you choose that as your medium for “daydreaming” in the first place? Why not paint or do improv?



Some of us do draw, paint, and all sorts of other tedious, precise work as hobbies and for fun as well.

I've spent years on  detailed design drawings of the starship in my  WIP, going through it deck by deck, room by room. ( Long before I had any intention of writing about it. )

And I can assure you, the drawings are done to the same level of professionalism as anything I ever got paid for producing.

So yeah, it's something I do for entertainment. 



luckyscars said:


> On the flipside I would question the sincerity of anybody who asserts they would write and edit to the same level they do currently if there was zero prospect of financial or critical reward. That seems a little nuts, given how draining it is and how little of the process of writing actually involves sitting down and letting your imagination unfold on a page. Most of it is work, pure and simple.



Some of us in this world are more than a little nuts, I guess, because we find some things others would consider tedious and unpleasant to be satisfying, relaxing, or that it helps us focus our thoughts.

I know someone who builds model sailing ships to a level of detail that has to be seen to be believed, and yet he's never sold the first one, to my knowledge, giving them away when they start to take up too much room. He's done this since I was a kid.



luckyscars said:


> If you don’t find a significant portion of it incredibly exhausting and un-fun I wonder if you’re spending enough time on proofreading, editing, revising, researching and all the painful but necessary things or just churning out stuff.



I think you must have a hard time being able to see things from other people's perspective, and understanding that old saying, "one man's meat is another man's poison".

In my own case, I've never cared for any of the typical sports that most everyone else does... football, basketball, etc.

Archery, shooting, martial arts? Sure. But I'd rather have to sit in the middle of a busy intersection wearing a dirty diaper than have to watch a football game. 

But I've discovered, to my own shock and surprise, I can sit down and kick out thousands of words worth of story, no problem. And although the editing is _not_ my favorite part, I still get the same level of satisfaction after it that I do from revising a detailed drawing, and seeing it completed.

( By the way, I got the second highest score on the drafting detailer's test, when I was in college, in the history of the school at the time. It would have been the highest, but I didn't have one line quite dark enough for the instructor. That cost a half a point, and I ended up with a 98.5. ) ( No one had ever gotten 100% )

So yeah, I guess I am nuts... and just have a high degree of aptitude for tasks that require a lot of focus and concentration. *shrug*



G.D.


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## Guard Dog (Jan 17, 2019)

Terry D said:


> Does it pay to be a writer? For me it does. I let the monsters inside my head out to play for a while and they let me sleep at night.



I just come _here_ to let the monsters in my head come out to play. 

( They really like some of y'all. :devilish: )


G.D.


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## luckyscars (Jan 17, 2019)

Guard Dog said:


> Some of us do draw, paint, and all sorts of other tedious, precise work as hobbies and for fun as well.
> 
> I've spent years on  detailed design drawings of the starship in my  WIP, going through it deck by deck, room by room. ( Long before I had any intention of writing about it. )
> 
> ...



I hope you won't take it as challenging your aptitude/dedication/intelligence in any way...but may I ask if you have completed any work (to publication level) or if it's still in some stage of progress as of right now?

The only reason I ask is because I would be interested to know if there is any aspect to the process you found not to be enjoyable at all in the context of completing a full book, as distinct from an outline, draft, or partially-completed-draft? 

Typically I really like the writing, can stomach and possibly enjoy editing to a certain extent, but when it comes to the final polishing often fall into a state of just wanting it to be over with. It becomes work.

I have never met anybody who didn't find at least some aspect of completing a book to be a pure grind...but then again I have never met anybody who came within one faint line of having the highest score of all time in a college test...so in the interest of other perspectives I am more than willing to consider that you may be simply operating on a higher intellectual level than me/other people.


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## Cephus (Jan 17, 2019)

Bayview said:


> I think I'm the opposite of this in almost all ways. I spent the first thirty or more years of my life not writing, and I was fine, so...obviously my skull will maintain structural integrity regardless! I would very much like to be a professional writer, because money can be exchanged for valuable goods and services which I need to sustain my life. And one of the biggest thrills I've had in recent years was seeing my books on a bookstore shelf.
> 
> If I wasn't making money from my writing, I'd probably quit writing. I don't think I could ever quit _daydreaming_, coming up with plots and settings and characters, but the writing itself? It's a lot of hard work and cuts into my daydreaming time! If there weren't money in it, I don't think I'd bother.



And that's fine, that's entirely up to you.  But for me, I remember sitting under a tree in the front yard at the age of 10 writing stories.  While other kids were running around in the streets, I was writing.  I have never cared about making a buck from it, I have a regular job for that and unless I was Stephen King, writing simply couldn't compete with it. I write for me. I write because I have to.  You do you though, so long as you're  satisfied, that's all that really matters.


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## Cephus (Jan 17, 2019)

Guard Dog said:


> And here's where _I'm_ the exact opposite.
> 
> If writing ever became something I had to do to survive, I'm quite sure I'd come to begrudge having to do it, resent it, and eventually find a way out of it.
> 
> ...



Exactly.  I would never put up with the fiddly bits required to be a well-known author.  I want to write.  I don't want to publicize, I don't want to be interviewed, I don't want to go to conventions and sign autographs, I have no interest in any of that.  In fact, I would outright refuse to do any of it.  That's not where my interest lies. I want to write.  If I could write and just hand it off to someone else and they'd do all of the publicity and marketing on their own and not involve me at all, fine.  But that's not how the traditional or even non-traditional publishing world works, so I don't do it.  My choice.  I already have a job, I don't need another one, especially since it wouldn't pay enough to make it worthwhile.  And the idea of having to do this for a living, having to pump out books because someone is waiting to publish them, that doesn't appeal to me at all.  I'm pretty contrarian.  Just having the demand that I do something is a pretty good guarantee that I won't want to.  I would never turn a hobby into a career.  I would never take something that I love to do and turn it into something that I have to do.  It would suck all of the love right out of it.  So no, even though I have the opportunity to do it any time I want, I refuse.


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## Guard Dog (Jan 17, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> I hope you won't take it as challenging your aptitude/dedication/intelligence in any way...but may I ask if you have completed any work, or if it's still in progress as of right now?
> 
> The only reason I ask is because I would be interested to know if there is any aspect to the process you found not to be enjoyable at all in the context of completing a full book, as distinct from an outline, draft, or partially-completed-draft?
> 
> ...



Okay, one thing I really want understood, first and foremost is that I am NOT writing a book, in the typical sense of the term... I am writing a story down.  And it's a _very_ important distinction.

I started the actual story back when I was 23, in college, and learning to draft on a computer, using AutoCad. ( Rel. 2.0. Yeah, it was a long time ago. )

Drawing, even on a computer, is one of those things I can do on "Auto Pilot", with my hands and eyes doing the physical work, and the rest of my mind free to daydream, think, etc.

So rather than sit there and mentally piss 'n moan about the damned computer, which I hated, I started concocting a story about what I was drawing. ( The instructor allowed us to draw anything we wanted for this 'orientation', and I, being a sci-fi/comic book geek, chose to design and draw a starship. And yeah, I still have a print of it in a closet here. )

Anyway... I continued to work on this story, including all sorts of variations and re-writes, in my head, for the next 32 years, with no intention of ever WRITING it down, though I have made drawings from it, created characters with full backgrounds and profiles, etc.  Just as a hobby.

( And yes, several people do not believe that I can actually do what I say, and hold an entire, very long story, in my head, in detail, for more than 30 years. But I promise you, I can and have, working on it every 'quiet moment' of every day I get the chance. )

Back on Sept. 20th, 2018, something changed, and I decided to write it all down. And so far, I have over 300,000 words written, and have done a huge amount of 'light' editing, and some rearrangement of a couple of events, just to make it read a little better/easier.

I have not completed it yet, and suspect that it'll take maybe another year before I reach a point I'm happy with, and can begin an earnest 'polishing' of the thing.

One of the things I dread the most is having to go back, decide how many books/volumes it needs to be cut up into, and 'cleaning up the ends' so they work well together.

For me, the toughest thing to learn is the mechanics - the technique - of the writing. And that's in spite of the fact I've read thousands of books over the years, and written millions of words on forums like this, the past 20 years or so. 

As I've said to some folks, it's like learning to transcribe a movie you're completely familiar with. It's a "whole 'nother animal" to anything else I've done, and yes, I really enjoy the challenge of learning something new.

But that's really all I'm doing; transcribing a finished story.

So... what it comes down to, if I'm successful, and get this down in writing the way I want, I'll pretty much be a 'one-trick pony', with only one 'world' to write about.

...but I can write about that world for the rest of my life, if I care to.

And by the way, I'm not shy about sending people the entire file of what I have written, up to whatever point I have completed when they ask, if they want to see it. ( Without any expectation of a detailed critique. Just to let them see what I've done, and get their general impression. And so far... those have been far more favorable/encouraging than I ever dared hope they would be. )

Anyway, that's the story... of my story. 

Oh, I should mention that although I'm a lousy teacher/instructor, I'm probably one of the best students, and fastest learners you'll ever find... _IF_ I'm interested in whatever I'm trying to learn.

Edit: There is one complete short story here on the forums, that was done as an experiment, of sorts. It's from the same world that my current WIP makes up.
( I wanted to see how little detail I could get away with. It turns out that "far less than I would have thought" is the answer there. )

I kicked that out rather quickly though, and it's only a couple of thousand words.


G.D.
P.S. It was discovered when I was 7 or 8 years old, that I have a very high I.Q... High enough that I could easily get into MENSA, if I could convince myself that it was really all that smart to spend $80 a year just for a card in my wallet and 'bragging rights'.

P.P.S.  I actually _like_ the...tedium?... of doing research, and will regularly look up things just because... I wanna _know_.


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## SueC (Jan 17, 2019)

> I write for me. I write because I have to.



Cephus, I'm like that too. I actually use writing as an aid. When I'm sad, I put it all down on paper and then I can go on. I like describing what I am seeing on any given day. Like you, I write because I have to. It's like breathing to me. The first thing I think of when I have a thought is to write it down, give the emotion to a character, what will she do? I go on adventures with some bloke I've made up. Then, when my life seems a bit dull and routine, the adventure I created sustains me. Writing is so much more than _writing - _it's a gift.


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## Guard Dog (Jan 17, 2019)

Y'know, Sue... at this point, I think I have to as well.

I don't know what changed, or why, but that's just how it is.

Life is strange, no?




G.D.


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## luckyscars (Jan 17, 2019)

Guard Dog said:


> Okay, one thing I really want understood, first and foremost is that I am NOT writing a book, in the typical sense of the term... I am writing a story down.  And it's a _very_ important distinction.
> 
> I started the actual story back when I was 23, in college, and learning to draft on a computer, using AutoCad. ( Rel. 2.0. Yeah, it was a long time ago. )
> 
> ...



Thanks for the clarification. 

I agree that your situation in terms of writing is entirely different to what I had in mind. The kind of writing I meant was books/stories intended to form part of books that either have some kind of popular readership already, or desire one within the relatively near future. 

It was this _modus operandi _which I was referring to when I stated that a lot of the process is hard work and not fun. I accept that is not part of your current reality with your project (which I respect, just so we are clear) but suggest it may well form part of it in the future. When it does, my guess is you will likely agree that writing is not _all_ enjoyable - though its only a guess. For what it is worth I find it tends to feel less like writing and more like shoveling manure the more you have to go back 'cleaning up the ends', as you put it.

So essentially we are talking about two different approaches to writing, for quite different purposes and at vastly different stages of completion, right? Apples to oranges. No real point in debating it.

The only other thing I _will_ mention, since you have brought it up now twice in the few posts I have contributed to lately, is this thing about IQ. I don't doubt your genius (I wouldn't have the first idea) but as far as I am aware IQ tests don't measure creativity, knowledge, interest level, or work ethic.  I was inclined not to bring it up, but I am genuinely curious as to what it is about IQ you believe is relevant to writing..?


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## Guard Dog (Jan 17, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> I am genuinely curious as to what you believe it is about IQ that is relevant to writing..?



I.Q. is a funny thing... It's not homogeneous across the full spectrum of human thinking or activity.

In my case, I'm extremely good in some areas... mechanical aptitude, observation, spatial relationships, geometry, etc.

But I'm no better, and in some cases worse than average, with others.  

I'm not particularly great with math, though I manage it well enough. I'm lousy at remembering names, but can remember faces and conversations nearly forever, and I have a memory that stretches back to events that happened when I was less than 2 years old.

And no, I don't consider myself a 'genius'.  At all.

I'm simply someone who's very good at seeing, making sense of, and learning things. That's about it.

And the reason I've mentioned my I.Q. is because out here in the 'real world', every time someone has seen me doing anything from wood carving, to drawing, repairing something, or so on, they usually ask me where I went to school to learn whatever it is, or who taught me. And when I tell them that I'm basically self-taught, the subject of I.Q. comes up, and when I tell them what mine is they go "Oh, that explains it then", or something of the like.

As far as the connection between I.Q. and creativity goes... my guess is that it's got to do with intelligent people having a better understanding of the world around them, how it works, and how it can be made to work.

It's just easier, and more natural, for people like Einstein, Mozart, da Vinci, etc. to do certain things than most people. They learn more easily, and with less struggle, than the average person. What's unclear to others is crystal-clear to them, from the start.

That's really all I can tell you.

And no, I'm not on their level at all... But I've gotten pretty tired of people saying I'm lying or exaggerating when I tell 'em I've worked on a story, in my mind, for over 30 years, and have done the sort of 'edits and revisions' there that _they_ have to do on paper.

After all, just because something is difficult or impossible for one person, doesn't mean it is for everyone else. I'm really tired of the "No way, nobody can do that" sort of thing.

Oh, and for the record, my intelligence, and how my mind/brain works, has actually caused me more grief or aggravation than most people would believe, simply due to the people around me. I hardly consider it the 'gift' or 'blessing' that some folks seem to think it is or should be.

It's just me, who I am, and my 'normal', if you will.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Edit: I suppose I should add that as far as a direct connection between I.Q. and writing goes, in my case it's probably that I understand exactly what goes into writing, and how much work goes into it, as well as how little chance most people have of becoming the next "Mr/Ms FamousWriter", due to the amount of luck being involved in that.
And that I will have an easier time learning the skills I need to produce what I want in the way I want. Mostly because I have a better understanding of what questions to ask, if nothing else.



G.D.


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## AdrianBraysy (Jan 17, 2019)

Whatever happened to viewing your writing as a hobby? It is, for me, something I do because writing in and off itself brings me pleasure. 

I work full time at a lumber mill. Writing provides me with an opportunity to relax when I get home. Does everything have to be all or nothing these days? I know at least two aspiring musicians, who refuse to get regular jobs, because all they want to do is their art, and it is making them miserable due to lack of financial stability. Unfortunately, life doesn't cater to anyone, and you have to do the best with what you have. Until you actually start making good money with your writing, do it on the side.


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## Megan Pearson (Jan 18, 2019)

AdrianBraysy said:


> Whatever happened to viewing your writing as a hobby? It is, for me, something I do because writing in and off itself brings me pleasure.
> 
> I work full time at a lumber mill. Writing provides me with an opportunity to relax when I get home. Does everything have to be all or nothing these days? I know at least two aspiring musicians, who refuse to get regular jobs, because all they want to do is their art, and it is making them miserable due to lack of financial stability. Unfortunately, life doesn't cater to anyone, and you have to do the best with what you have. Until you actually start making good money with your writing, do it on the side.



Hey AdrianBraysy, I think most people I've met have first viewed their writing as a hobby while holding a full-time career. The publishing bug kind-a bites a little later on, whether it be for money or fame or just plain curiousity. Some people don't ever want to be published. Some do. 

Sometimes, though, I think whether someone views it as a hobby or a career is more wrapped up with identity than purpose. How does someone think of themselves: as a full-time ____ [fill in paying career]? Or, do they think of themselves as a writer _who happens to _work for a living to support their writing habit? I think purpose in writing, whether for hobby or publication, doesn't define most writers so much as what brings them the most satisfaction. (Like you said, you find it is relaxing. It's satisfying.) The person who gains the most satisfaction from writing is, perhaps, the one more likely to identify himself as a writer no matter if he does or does not get paid for it.

About those musicians. Yeah--those poor, crazy musicians. I think it's a lot worse being bitten by the musician bug than the writing bug.


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## luckyscars (Jan 18, 2019)

Guard Dog said:


> As far as the connection between I.Q. and creativity goes... my guess is that it's got to do with intelligent people having a better understanding of the world around them, how it works, and how it can be made to work.
> 
> It's just easier, and more natural, for people like Einstein, Mozart, da Vinci, etc. to do certain things than most people. They learn more easily, and with less struggle, than the average person. What's unclear to others is crystal-clear to them, from the start.
> 
> That's really all I can tell you.



I think you are conflating a single type of intelligence measured by a single metric (IQ) with the wider abstraction of "cleverness".

You mention Mozart, Einstein and da Vinci but none of them ever took an IQ test. Moreover there is no credible evidence any of them would have scored particularly highly if they had. We _assume_ Einstein especially would have a pretty high IQ, based mainly on his achievements in a field where high IQ individuals typically excel, but we don't know and people debate it still. In any case he was hardly 'creative'. Do you know of many famous writers who have exceptionally high IQ's? Because I don't.

On the other hand, there are plenty of examples of severely autistic people scoring above average or even genius-level in terms of their IQ, yet barely able to put together a coherent sentence or use the bathroom without help. These people do not possess a 'better understanding of the world around them' by any standard that makes sense. 

IQ only really measures deductive reasoning. I do accept deductive reasoning skill is useful for many things and absolutely vital for some, but I see zero connection between good writers and IQ, nor any reason why there would be when good writing involves almost no deduction. 

So I am not saying you cannot be creative _and _have a high IQ, just that you cannot be creative _because _you have a high IQ.



AdrianBraysy said:


> Whatever happened to viewing your writing as a hobby? It is, for me, something I do because writing in and off itself brings me pleasure.



So why does writing bring you pleasure?


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## Guard Dog (Jan 18, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> I think you are conflating a single type of intelligence measured by a single metric (IQ) with the wider concept of intellectual ability.



Could be. 

Science Trends

As far a correlation between 'Intelligent' and 'Creative' goes, it seems recent research does find there _is_ one, but that there hasn't been enough research into creativity to resolve exactly what the relationship is.

...and all I can tell you about myself, is that I have always been _very_ creative, and every test I've ever been put through concerning I.Q. has always produced a high score. And I personally feel like the one definitely helps the other.

So, if the one isn't related to the other, and they are in fact two different, completely unrelated things... then I'm even more odd/strange/unusual than even I've believed, since I apparently got a very high 'dose' of both.

( It has been noted by psychologists/testers that I seem to draw on both sides of my brain more evenly than the average, where most people tend to be more one hemisphere or the other.  Whatever that's worth. )

The bottom line? No matter how you look at it, I ain't "normal". :rofl:



G.D.


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## elissasmart (Jan 18, 2019)

I think that being a writer is similar to running a business. It all depends on advertising. You should promote yourself as a business. And here is my favorite quote for this question: "Start doing something really good and somebody will pay you for that". We all know those popular writers who have a lot of money. But they did a lot apart from writing an outstanding stories.


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