# When Betas Go Bad.. as in soured



## MzSnowleopard (Oct 13, 2014)

I'm thinking that this is a case of such a scenario. It's looking more and more like I need to cut loose the one Beta I'm able to meet with in person. Beta Bob has gone bad. As a co-ed and majoring in film production, he had been ideal on the visual presentation of my scripts. Yesterday, not so much. It was a resounding disappointment.

Meeting at Taco Johns (serious craving for soft shell chicken tacos) I gave him a fresh copy of the script I'd been working on- 10 pages, double space. It took him about 5 minutes or so to read it. When I asked him for his response- it was clear that this was the LAST thing he wanted to discuss. First he said he saw a comparative to Stargate- because of the archeological setting, then he went on to shift the conversation on to Superman, Smallville, Arrow, Flash, and Gotham.

Whenever I tried to maneuver the conversation back- he'd make another comparative and shift back to the previously mentioned shows, comic books, etc. Anything aside from the reason for our getting together.

Like others who have reviewed my work- I have appreciated his input and responses but this.... I'm feeling more than a tad miffed here. It was annoying and disappointing.

How am I supposed to know how good (or bad) my writing is if this is what I get?
Is this him giving me a subtle hint (your writing sucks) or a beta being rude?

Either way, since he's opted to avoid the subject of my writing, I feel right in cutting him loose. Bad Beta-Bob, no more Zodiac for you.


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## Morkonan (Oct 13, 2014)

MzSnowleopard said:


> ...How am I supposed to know how good (or bad) my writing is if this is what I get?



Does he know what is expected of him? Are you clear on what he expects from you?



> Is this him giving me a subtle hint (your writing sucks) or a beta being rude?



Beta Readers are people, too. 

Maybe it was an "off" day? Maybe he just wanted to talk about other things? Or, maybe he's just fallible and needed someone to jabber to about things he's enthusiastic about?

Excuses aside, though, there are some things you might want to tell him.

For one, similarities don't mean hooey unless they're so similar you could stamp the show's title on the cover and nobody would know the difference. For instance, in one of Jack McDevitt's "Priscilla Hutchins" novels, there's a science-fiction archeological plot. Sure, there are alien ruins and some sort of nasty uber-powerful alien force involved, somehow, but it has little resemblance to "Stargate." Heck, they're even a "team", investigating the site! (I wasn't a fan of the TV series, btw, so my comparisons stop, here.)

Take a breath, for a second: He's mentioning a lot of super-hero shows. There are similarities with your characters and traditional/contemporary "super-heroes", right? So, he has a right to go off on that and to make comparisons. They may be off the mark, sometimes even spurious, but he's _your_ Beta - This is what he _thinks_. Listen to what he has to say. A Beta Reader is not the writer. If he's acting properly, he's not writing your story for you. He's simply calling up what comes to mind when he reads your material and that sort of feedback can sometimes be helpful. Maybe other readers would have similar thoughts? Its that kind of question that proves a Beta Reader's worth. So, don't be to quick to dismiss it.

While the relationship between a writer and a Beta can get close, don't get closer than you have to. Of course, you're allowed to be friends with them. But, when it comes down to your writing, the Beta's gloves are allowed to come off. You have to take the punches, even if they're wild swings. If you find that they're flailing away without cause, too often, then it's time to cut 'em loose. But, if they've given you valuable input in the past, allow them a couple of cuffs to the chin. A bruised ego for one session is a worthy price to pay for a great idea in another.

Some relationships are doomed. That doesn't mean he's a bad person or he has stupid ideas. It just means that, for whatever reason, he didn't work out for you as a Beta Reader. No harm done. Untangling yourself from that, however, may be a bit taxing. You can opt to simply ignore his input and slowly drop him out of the loop or you can just send him a "Dear Beta" letter... Your choice.

Lastly - You may want to consider a questionnaire format. Develop a sensible bullet-list of topics concerning your writing and use this in your next meeting. Conduct it "interview style." At the end, give him the chance to "free-form" for awhile. Remember, it's a give-and-take relationship, so you have give him his shot to meaningfully contribute. After all, he's probably just doing this because he's enthusiastic about story-telling, right? Let him share that enthusiasm, but do it after you've gotten what you think you need.


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## MzSnowleopard (Oct 13, 2014)

All good advice, and I am trying to learn from it- at this point though- all I seem to get is that Bob really loves his superhero stuff, which is something I've known for over 4 years. And he really, really loves talking about it- especially Superman / Smallville.


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## Schrody (Oct 13, 2014)

Why don't you post it in the Workshop?  You'll get better reviews, that's for sure


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## Nickleby (Oct 13, 2014)

One thing I've learned about people is that they don't want to give you bad news to your face. It applies to everything from "there's spinach in your teeth" to "you're fired."

Either Bob didn't like your stuff or he didn't feel like talking about it. Or both. There's no point in pushing him. I'd find an online workshop (like this one) and get somebody impersonal.


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## InstituteMan (Oct 13, 2014)

An in person beta reader can be convenient, but I personally find in person feedback difficult to provide and receive. If I'm the reader, I worry about offending and frankly get uncomfortable. If I'm the writer, I have trouble taking the feedback because I am contemplating how to incorporate it while I sit there, so I either make the beta slow down (which can frustrate them) or miss some of the later feedback while contemplating the earlier feedback.

In other words: I am all for the Internet in general, and WF in particular.


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## popsprocket (Oct 13, 2014)

Pointing out flaws to someone's face isn't most people's strong suit. It's usually a case of they've met someone in the past who wanted honest truth about something, and then had that person blow up in their faces upon receiving honest truth.

Maybe stick to email for feedback unless he wants to actually meet in person and discuss the work.


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## MzSnowleopard (Oct 13, 2014)

That might explain a lot with Bob. When we're in person- he seems to want to focus on these 'non important' issues, when we're on the phone, he talks mostly about the problems on campus or Kenny- a kid he knows I don't like. Sometimes it seems like he's scrambling and scraping for conversation. And somehow  we always end up laughing about whatever we discuss.

I haven't shared it here because I have 6 pieces up so far and not given many reviews in return. I haven't had the time to reciprocate reviews.


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## InstituteMan (Oct 13, 2014)

MzSnowleopard said:


> I haven't shared it here because I have 6 pieces up so far and not given many reviews in return. I haven't had the time to reciprocate reviews.



This is always a tricky issue. Sometimes a piece doesn't get much of a response because there isn't much room to improve it. Sometimes people are just busy (that's my situation for the moment, but this, too, shall pass). There are several members, including me, who will be happy to give an honest critique when needed. I can't promise to be quick all of the time, but shoot me a PM if there is ever something I can look at for you.


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## MzSnowleopard (Oct 13, 2014)

You're right, it is tricky, I had promised reviews to people on their work that have been on my "to review" list for several years. We're talking 50,000+ word count. I can't seem to get to them. In contrast, short pieces are quick and easy. I can knock one out in a few hours.


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## InstituteMan (Oct 13, 2014)

MzSnowleopard said:


> You're right, it is tricky, I had promised reviews to people on their work that have been on my "to review" list for several years. We're talking 50,000+ word count. I can't seem to get to them. In contrast, short pieces are quick and easy. I can knock one out in a few hours.



Shortish is key to getting quality feedback. I can do intense feedback for a couple thousand words. At 10k words I can get into some details and give some thematic advice. At multiple 10ks, though, all I can possibly do is give broad brush advice.


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## T.S.Bowman (Oct 13, 2014)

Instituteman has given me some GREAT feedback on Side Worlds and I just sent him a chapter or two at a time.

Which reminds me. It's been a while since I sent any. 

But then again, he's been busier than a one legged man at an ass kicking contest.


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## MzSnowleopard (Oct 13, 2014)

I can do it, it's a matter of time, schedule and distractions.  The other day someone gave Layla an electric keyboard.  She had is set to piano and she and other children were pounding out it. They were screaming at each other and torturing that poor instrument for hours.


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## T.S.Bowman (Oct 13, 2014)

Yeek. That would suck.


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## InstituteMan (Oct 13, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> Instituteman has given me some GREAT feedback on Side Worlds and I just sent him a chapter or two at a time.
> 
> Which reminds me. It's been a while since I sent any.
> 
> But then again, he's been busier than a one legged man at an ass kicking contest.



I still want more of Side Worlds, TS. Just 'cause I haven't pestered you doesn't mean I don't want more. :stung:


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## T.S.Bowman (Oct 13, 2014)

InstituteMan said:


> I still want more of Side Worlds, TS. Just 'cause I haven't pestered you doesn't mean I don't want more. :stung:



I hear ya. I didn't want to bug ya too much because I know how busy you have been. I'll look back and see where I left off. You'll have a couple more chapters withing the next day or two.


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## MzSnowleopard (Oct 13, 2014)

InstituteMan said:


> I still want more of Side Worlds, TS. Just 'cause I haven't pestered you doesn't mean I don't want more. :stung:



:rofl: Sorry, I just found this absolutely hilarious... Hey T, should I torture him with Zodiac ?


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## T.S.Bowman (Oct 13, 2014)

MzSnowleopard said:


> :rofl: Sorry, I just found this absolutely hilarious... Hey T, should I torture him with Zodiac ?



A couple of chapters might not hurt. LOL


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## MzSnowleopard (Oct 13, 2014)

I've finished polishing the first 5 pages... the rest of is still a mess, still working on deletions. It seems like just when I think I've knock out a character that has to go- I find another scene with it.


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## T.S.Bowman (Oct 13, 2014)

MzSnowleopard said:


> I've finished polishing the first 5 pages... the rest of is still a mess, still working on deletions. It seems like just when I think I've knock out a character that has to go- I find another scene with it.



I know that feeling


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## MzSnowleopard (Oct 13, 2014)

If I find 1 more file with a talking animal, other than the ones I'm aware of, I think I might lose it LOL


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## T.S.Bowman (Oct 14, 2014)

For God's sake don't open Side Worlds then. LOL


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## MzSnowleopard (Oct 14, 2014)

You know who I'm talking about... So, as long as you don't have carnivorous horses with a preference for humans, we're okay.


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## T.S.Bowman (Oct 14, 2014)

MzSnowleopard said:


> You know who I'm talking about... So, as long as you don't have carnivorous horses with a preference for humans, we're okay.



LMAO! Nope. Philip like apples and good ole hay. 

Of course, having once been human, he also would enjoy a good steak. If Kragar would pay attention, anyway. LOL


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## MzSnowleopard (Oct 14, 2014)

That's different, he was human once. It's like I told K, that is the one book of hers that I have no intentions of reading EVER. nope, nada, zip, zero, zilch of a chance that I'll read it. That's blasphemy against all equines!!! Blasphemy, I tell you.

She got a laugh out it. It was done in humor but still, I'm not reading a story about talking horse that eat humans, nope, not gonna do it and nobody can make me.


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## MzSnowleopard (Oct 14, 2014)

I am keeping 2 animals in Zodiac; Lynn's cat Pita modeled after my own IRL cat Pita. With some of the quirks of my current feline family. And Bobo, what's a marine biologist without a companion sea lion? sometimes he follows Toni like a shadow.


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## Mutimir (Oct 14, 2014)

What has beta-Bob received out of this arrangement? So far he's given you his opinion.


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## MzSnowleopard (Oct 14, 2014)

Beta-Bob gets conversation and food on my dime. As for him giving me his opinion, to be accurate - I'm still waiting for the rest of it. After he read the piece, I asked him what he thought, he started with the opener grabs him- then went in to comparing it to first Stargate then the superhero stuff. This is a subject that I've been hearing about from him for going on 4 years now. I've learned more about Superman in the last 4 years than my previous 39.


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## Mutimir (Oct 14, 2014)

Maybe Beta Bob doesn't like crappy tacos?


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## MzSnowleopard (Oct 14, 2014)

Actually he's the one that got me hooked on them- see they're not in Florida- so he introduced me to them after we met. I like their chicken tacos better than Taco Bell.


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## Schrody (Oct 15, 2014)

Mutimir said:


> Maybe Beta Bob doesn't like crappy tacos?



Don't be rude


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## popsprocket (Oct 15, 2014)

I don't suppose there's a chance that Bob has _interested _in you and wants to draw the meetings out as long as he can?


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## dale (Oct 15, 2014)

never trust a guy named bob. they can spell their name backwards and you'd never know it.


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## Plasticweld (Oct 15, 2014)

dale said:


> never trust a guy named bob. they can spell their name backwards and you'd never know it.




Never trust a guy named Dale he does not know that it needs to be Capitalized Bob  not bob  :}   If you spell your name forwards and backwards it is acceptable to spell it this way BoB


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## Deleted member 56686 (Oct 15, 2014)

Do you know that Dale spelled backwards is spelled elaD? What that means I have no idea :scratch:


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## dale (Oct 15, 2014)

mrmustard615 said:


> Do you know that Dale spelled backwards is spelled elaD? What that means I have no idea :scratch:



 the word "elad' is a word they use in special ed classes to help kids with speech impediments. so i guess me backwards is helpful for retarded people. ha ha. i think it's also a jewish word.


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## Schrody (Oct 15, 2014)

mrmustard615 said:


> Do you know that Dale spelled backwards is spelled elaD? What that means I have no idea :scratch:



Combination of those letter (Dale) makes my name


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## Deleted member 56686 (Oct 15, 2014)

Schrody said:


> Combination of those letter (Dale) makes my name



Dlae? :scratch:


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## Schrody (Oct 15, 2014)

mrmustard615 said:


> Dlae? :scratch:



No :lol: I thought I told you my name :scratch:


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## Deleted member 56686 (Oct 15, 2014)

Schrody said:


> No :lol: I thought I told you my name :scratch:



Shh! You're not supposed to tell anybody. Want a cookie?


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## Schrody (Oct 15, 2014)

mrmustard615 said:


> Shh! You're not supposed to tell anybody. Want a cookie?



I don't mind. And what kind of a question is that? Of course I want cookie :mrgreen:


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## Mutimir (Oct 15, 2014)

Schrody said:


> Don't be rude



That's not rude rude in my book. That's the truth. You get what you pay for.


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## MzSnowleopard (Oct 16, 2014)

popsprocket said:


> I don't suppose there's a chance that Bob has _interested _in you and wants to draw the meetings out as long as he can?



I've wondered that myself a few times. He's never made a pass at me and I keep the physical distance between us at about Personal space' range. This used to be about 3 feet around a person. I don't know what it is today, if it still exists.

He did stop by tonight to ask about my view on this weeks episodes of Flash and Arrow ( he's conserving the minutes on his phone).

I managed to get him to talk about my piece, showed him the 2 new pages I wrote last night, and he went right into his comparison of Stargate.

I give up, yes he finally did give me what I was looking for in response but then he talked for almost an hour going through the same conversation topics again... in the same order. He even slipped in all of it he slipped out an impersonation of Tommy Lee Jones.

Yes he's fun to be around, great personality, but he needs more conversation material.


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## Schrody (Oct 16, 2014)

Mutimir said:


> That's not rude rude in my book. That's the truth. You get what you pay for.



We don't know the true nature of their agreement, so it's fairly rude to attack Snow for taking him to the "crappy tacos". What if Bob wants crappy tacos? What if Snow can't afford anything better?


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## MzSnowleopard (Oct 16, 2014)

Hey, those crappy soft shell chicken tacos and potato ole's (think flat tatter-tots with a pinch of seasoned salt) and soda were almost $ 14. 

It's not a date, so I'm not spending $40.

IMO Crappy John's is better than Taco Hell.

Side Note: He has a friend who's an avid reader / critique and said he might be a better fit as a Beta Reader.
He has talked about Monty quite a bit so I'm willing to give him a shot.


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## Schrody (Oct 16, 2014)

MzSnowleopard said:


> Hey, those crappy soft shell chicken tacos and potato ole's (think flat tatter-tots with a pinch of seasoned salt) and soda were almost $ 14.
> 
> It's not a date, so I'm not spending $40.
> 
> ...



I agree with you Snow, you did your part of an agreement, he should have done his. No matter how much you spend on him.


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## voltigeur (Oct 16, 2014)

When I work with betas the relationship goes both ways. First you have to know that the reader is interested enough in your work to actually be of help. 

In my writer’s group I struggle when I read fantasy.  When a character uses some magic to get out of a situation and you lose me. So for a fantasy writer I’m not a good reader, for no other reason than I’m just not into the genre. 

I have a group of writers that I meet with. We only read scenes and chapters due to time constraints. And I have a reader that is also my technical advisor. His role is technical accuracy and he is a fan of the genre so he great for feedback from my key market. 

The writers group is great for the general reader and can show me exactly what mistakes I am making. It doesn’t get personal because the critique is so specific. 

It sounds like he is more a fan of the genre rather than what he is reading. Is it possible that he doesn’t like the work and doesn’t want to hurt you? Noble even though it doesn’t help you in the long run. 

Sounds like finding Beta readers where there is no previous relationship my help you more.


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## MzSnowleopard (Oct 16, 2014)

I wish there was a writers group that I could connect with. The only one in my area meets during November. They are strictly a NaNo group. That's a challenge I refuse to do. That's another topic though. 

This is a common aspect of society in this town. People may be fans of something or into / involved with a specific hobby but they don't connect in social clubs. 

I learned this about 10 years ago with an attempt to put together a Star Trek Club chapter. I met plenty of fan but none were interested in a club.

Beta Bob is definitely a fan of the hero genre, and his being a film major are 2 of the reason I asked him if he'd beta read for me. We've been friends a number of years. We've talked about this very story and he seems genuinely interested. 

As it turns out he's more interested in talking about Stargate and the current crop of TV shows based on comic books.


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## popsprocket (Oct 16, 2014)

Oh well, it happens, I guess. Maybe Bob just needs a break.


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## voltigeur (Oct 16, 2014)

Look at meetup.com Here in the Dallas area there are several. A few are bash the new person but many are people that are truly helpful. Also some readers groups on Meet up will help new writers as well. Have to be more subtle asking for help there but many will give you feed back on short sections. 

I joined 2 one that met during business hours and I knew there would be more professional writers there. Another was based at a local university (English majors) have been tons of help.


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## dale (Oct 16, 2014)

what about bob?


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## popsprocket (Oct 16, 2014)

voltigeur said:


> Look at meetup.com Here in the Dallas area there are several. A few are bash the new person but many are people that are truly helpful. Also some readers groups on Meet up will help new writers as well. Have to be more subtle asking for help there but many will give you feed back on short sections.
> 
> I joined 2 one that met during business hours and I knew there would be more professional writers there. Another was based at a local university (English majors) have been tons of help.



I just had a look at my local area. The most active group issues homework. 

Homework.

A social group issues homework.

I'm going to make my own group with strippers and cocaine!


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## Morkonan (Oct 16, 2014)

voltigeur said:


> ...I joined 2 one that met during business hours and I knew there would be more professional writers there. Another was based at a local university (English majors) have been tons of help.



Great thinking!

There are a few groups in my area and this region has a pretty active "creative community" of all sorts of artists. Surprisingly, they're all over the place. But, most of them are waiters and waitresses.  Seriously, I've met several artists, writers and playwrights, all moonlighting as wait-staff. (I have a tendency to engage people, even if they're "just" my waiter or waitress.)

Hmm, so, while an active creative community, not entirely a successful one.


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## MzSnowleopard (Oct 17, 2014)

Not to be a putz but there's still a problem with transportation- that one group I mentioned met in the evenings- after the buses have stopped running. A lot of groups are like this in my area. While it may be a convenient time for them- the last buses leave downtown at 5:30.

Getting a ride from a member typically lasts one, maybe two times then you're on your own. Just one of the reasons why I want to move.


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