# Professional Editing Services



## MEShammas (Jul 2, 2011)

I don't plan on utilizing one, and if I do it won't be until I finish editing my manuscript myself, but I was just wondering what you guys consider the best professional editing service with the lowest price. 

Any ideas?


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## LugubriousLenny (Jul 2, 2011)

To be honest, the only people touching your manuscript should be yourself, your agent, and your publisher.

The only professional editors are employed by publishers, the rest are trying to make a buck by running your manuscript through spell-check.


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## Rustgold (Jul 2, 2011)

> To be honest, the only people touching your manuscript should be yourself, *add* your agent, and your publisher.


*add* You can add a wife/husband or someone trustworthy if you're lucky enough to have someone, but yeah I totally agree.


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## qwertyman (Jul 3, 2011)

LugubriousLenny said:


> To be honest, the only people touching your manuscript should be yourself, your agent, and your publisher.
> 
> The only professional editors are employed by publishers, the rest are trying to make a buck by running your manuscript through spell-check.






			
				rustgold said:
			
		

> *add* You can add a wife/husband or someone trustworthy if you're lucky enough to have someone, but yeah I totally agree.



Are you advising from hearsay or experience?

In my experience, asking a close relative or friend is not a reliable source of unbiased opinion. 

My 'editor' experience is mixed, I am sure there are plenty of good freelance editors out there. The problem is, finding them. 

Currently, I have a 100,000 word MS with an editor and I've had a lot of useful feedback. However, he took me on (at a reduced rate) if I would not hold him to a completion date. 

He started in April and although I have the bulk of it I am still waiting for a truncated critique (part of the deal), which is important to me as nobody else has read the MS in entirety. I know he's over-worked because he sends me emails at 2 o'clock in the morning. 

I think Helicio is seeking an agent and wants to get his MS as perfect as possible before sending it out.


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## Winston (Jul 3, 2011)

I have found an excellent editor.  He has done far more than 'spell checked' my work.  

He took about five months to go through my 150k manuscript, with a price per page of about $9.  It wasn't cheap, but the quality of my MS is now much, much better than if my wife tried to help.  It's submission ready.

I'm currently contracting for a Draft B of the first three chapters (the ones the agent will want to see).  Final polish time.

There's a cliché about a person representing them self in court has a fool for a client.  Don't edit your own work.  

BTW, two words:  Non-Disclosure Agreement.


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## garza (Jul 3, 2011)

If whatever you have written needs more than SPaG correction, then you haven't finished writing. If all it needs is SPaG correction and you are going the traditional publishg route, your publisher, as has been pointed out, has editors to pick out those nits. My experience publishing fiction is limited (one novel and a handful of short stories many years ago), but I've written and had published more than a dozen non-fiction books and many, many, magazine articles. To echo an earlier post, no one ever touched any of that but me, my agent, and my publishers. That's how it should be in traditional publishing. The old lawyer joke does not apply. If it did, I would not have gotten along quite nicely for 55 years editing my own work.

With the rapid growth of electronic self publishing, there may well be a need for independent editors. However, an editor should not sit for months on a novel. Something's wrong there.


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## qwertyman (Jul 3, 2011)

garza said:


> . If all it needs is SPaG correction and you are going the traditional publishg route, your *publisher*, as has been pointed out, has editors to pick out those nits. .......... To echo an earlier post, no one ever touched any of that but me, *my agent*, *and my publishers*. .


 (the emphasises are added)

Helico hasn't actually stated it, but my impression is - he doesn't have an agent or a publisher.


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## JosephB (Jul 3, 2011)

garza said:


> With the rapid growth of electronic self publishing, there may well be a need for independent editors. However, an editor should not sit for months on a novel. Something's wrong there.



I think that's the point. It's going to be up to the writers to check references, read samples and have a clear understanding of cost and what services will be provided -- and how long it will take. And I wouldn't hire anyone to do anything without seeing all the specifics in writing. I'm sure a lot of people are going to get burned -- but that's often the case when people don't exercise due diligence.


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## Winston (Jul 3, 2011)

garza said:


> ... The old lawyer joke does not apply. If it did, I would not have gotten along quite nicely for 55 years editing my own work.
> 
> With the rapid growth of electronic self publishing, there may well be a need for independent editors. However, an editor should not sit for months on a novel. Something's wrong there.



As many of us are burdened by a 'day job' in the 'real world', the assistance of a professional is a need.  Congrats on 55 years, but everyone's situation is unique, and times do change.
My Editor took months to edit my manuscipt.  NOTHING was wrong there.  He was good.  I'm not some impatient flake checking my smart phone every 5 minutes for someone's external validation.  Quality is worth the wait.


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## Baron (Jul 3, 2011)

Winston said:


> As many of us are burdened by a 'day job' in the 'real world', the assistance of a professional is a need.  Congrats on 55 years, but everyone's situation is unique, and times do change.
> My Editor took months to edit my manuscipt.  NOTHING was wrong there.  He was good.  I'm not some impatient flake checking my smart phone every 5 minutes for someone's external validation.  Quality is worth the wait.



Some may gain benefit from the services of a professional editor but it certainly isn't a need.  Neither does it offer any guarantee when seeking an agent or publisher.  There's one service no editor can provide; they can't make a good book out of a bad one.  

A book should be made as presentable as possible before submission but garza is right, if a book is accepted it will pass through the hands of the publisher's own editors.  It's far better to learn the craft than to pay a third party.


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## qwertyman (Jul 4, 2011)

Baron said:
			
		

> It's far better to learn the craft than to pay a third party.


I think that’s an over-simplification of the process. Unless you have someone locked in the attic willing to read 100,000 words when required, how do you get an overall objective view of your work?

It’s worth something to be told, by someone with publishing experience:


The pace drops in chapter 8 through to 11 and impetus suffers. Have you thought of dropping the taxi ride and possibly the whole zoo sequence, (it could be moved back to page 37, if you consider it essential)?

Character A is introduced too conveniently, that is to say he materialises at the moment when the plot requires him. Consider a first appearance earlier, perhaps in the restaurant scene (chapter 6). Seeing that he doesn’t appear again in the book, except to provide a handy explanation, it begs the question; can’t you drop him and find a better way?

And more of the same.

These are objective comments. However hard an author tries he can never be totally objective about his own work. Of course if you have someone in the attic, who will read the whole MS, and can make similar comments, I agree, why pay someone?


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## JosephB (Jul 4, 2011)

qwertyman said:


> I think that’s an over-simplification of the process. Unless you have someone locked in the attic willing to read 100,000 words when required, how do you get an overall objective view of your work?



Why are you always arguing about this? If you think you need to hire someone to provide an objective opinion of your novel --fine. Who are you trying to convince -- yourself? If not, just do it. What difference does it make what anyone here has to say about it?


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## garza (Jul 4, 2011)

qwertyman - It's exactly the points you make about pace, characters, and such, that I'm working now to learn as I start writing fiction seriously. If I can't learn to properly control those issues, then I don't deserve to be published.


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## qwertyman (Jul 4, 2011)

JosephB said:


> Why are you always arguing about this? If you think you need to hire someone to provide an objective opinion of your novel --fine. Who are you trying to convince -- yourself? If not, just do it.



Somebody asked the question! I have done it and I am commenting on my experience. You obviously haven't and don't intend to. Fine, but you weren't asking the question and for some reason can't wait to get your oar in the water. 



			
				 Joe the baptist said:
			
		

> What difference does it make what anyone here has to say about it?



That's what Forums are about, somebody asks for an opinion and somebody gives it.

Why don't you ship your oar and go and paddle you canoe in another post where you can add something based on experience.


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## Rustgold (Jul 4, 2011)

qwertyman said:


> Are you advising from hearsay or experience?
> In my experience, asking a close relative or friend is not a reliable source of unbiased opinion.
> My 'editor' experience is mixed, I am sure there are plenty of good freelance editors out there. The problem is, finding them.


A cat fight isn't worth it, and I'm too old to be bothered.

When you look at 'actual' successful writers, many of them state that one of more people close to them have helped in their writing.  Of course sometimes it's mere lip-service, but some of them are fact.  There is the *'if'* part to that, and those who don't have that credit their agent.  We simply don't hear of too many (if any) successful 'pay per page' edited books, nor any successful writer (to my knowledge) crediting such a editor.
That's what I based it on.


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## Candra H (Jul 4, 2011)

Well, what about self-publishers? They don't have access to inhouse editors so have to organise their own using their own money. In instances like that, knowledge about reputable editors is going to be invaluable. Once again, horses for courses. 

And I don't think self-publishers don't deserve to be published just because they pay an independent editor to look at their work and give an objective and (hopefully) comprehensive critique of it. It's not about learning to use techniques over time but about getting an objective review of an ms in order to to make it the best it can be for publication. No offense but anyone who believes they can just write and edit their own work and chuck it out on Lulu or wherever else with no intelligent outside input and make a living from it is deluding themselves. None of us are perfect and we all miss things.

Inhouse editors catch those missed things for traditional publishers, independent editors catch them for self-publishers.


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## Baron (Jul 4, 2011)

Candra H said:


> Well, what about self-publishers? They don't have access to inhouse editors so have to organise their own using their own money. In instances like that, knowledge about reputable editors is going to be invaluable. Once again, horses for courses.
> 
> And I don't think self-publishers don't deserve to be published just because they pay an independent editor to look at their work and give an objective and (hopefully) comprehensive critique of it. It's not about learning to use techniques over time but about getting an objective review of an ms in order to to make it the best it can be for publication. No offense but anyone who believes they can just write and edit their own work and chuck it out on Lulu or wherever else with no intelligent outside input and make a living from it is deluding themselves. None of us are perfect and we all miss things.
> 
> Inhouse editors catch those missed things for traditional publishers, independent editors catch them for self-publishers.



Professional editors don't critique your work.  You'll need to pay a reviewer to do that or submit to one of the site's which offer free reviews.

To state an absolute is also a mistake.  I know writers who are very astute when it comes to doing their own edits.  Because you may feel a limitation in this area it doesn't mean you can apply that to everyone.

If people believe themselves competent to do their own edit then it's a good way to go.  If they don't then they should seek the service of an editor.  It's a mistake to have high expectations of what the editor will do beyond dealing with grammar, punctuation and typos.


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## Candra H (Jul 5, 2011)

So you're telling me editors don't make suggestions re themes in a story that might not be working or scenes that could be changed or characters that are too flat or unecessary to the plot etc? If I follow your logic and assume a writer can only expect an indepth "critique"/review from sites offering these for free, what do editors in publishing houses do? do they just comment on spelling/grammar/punctuation? Are you sure about that?

I'm no expert, just curious.

What absolute? That none of us are perfect? Well, maybe some writers believe they're good enough to edit their own work to an excellent standard and thats cool, but personally, I don't assume I'm so good as to think I can write a story and have it perfect through my own editing. If I believed that, what would be the point of forums like this or editors in publishing houses, or independent editors? I could just write, do a quick edit and publish, and places like this and editors could go the way of the dinosaurs.

I wonder if people's egos might be getting in the way of reality when they say they are good enough to edit their own work to a high/publishable standard...

Edit;



> Professional editors don't critique your work. You'll need to pay a reviewer to do that or submit to one of the site's which offer free reviews.



?

Something else I'm curious about. You're talking about reviews as being the same as a critique. How is that possible? I always thought a review was what a story/novel got from an independent party after it was published...


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## Baron (Jul 5, 2011)

> If I follow your logic and assume a writer can only expect an indepth "critique"/review from sites offering these for free, what do editors in publishing houses do? do they just comment on spelling/grammar/punctuation? Are you sure about that?



At no point have I said that this is what you'd get from readers and editors in a publishing house.  We've been talking about people who offer a paid editing service, not in-house editors, there's a world of difference.

To say that a writer's ability to be objective about his or her own work is an ego thing is ridiculous.  Writing is an art like any other and it isn't considered egocentric when a photographer or painter works to bring the finished product up to a standard that satisfies.  In the pre-digital age I'd work on negatives in the dark room, or correct flaws in slides using a light box.  I needed nobody else to do any of this for me.  These days I primarily use Photoshop.  The same principle applies with writing.


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## Foxee (Jul 5, 2011)

Back more to the OP...


Helicio said:


> I don't plan on utilizing one, and if I do it won't be until I finish editing my manuscript myself, but I was just wondering what you guys consider the best professional editing service with the lowest price.
> 
> Any ideas?


I wish I had recommendations but so far I've never had occasion to worry about it. As far as whether or not to use one (after you've edited thoroughly yourself) I like to have several different pairs of eyes as much as is feasible before I submit something. People tend to slide over glaring errors if their brains obligingly fill in the blanks or correct as they read...it sounds weird but it does happen and it's far more likely that I'll miss something important than my test readers who are less familiar with the work. They don't know what SHOULD come next so they're more apt to stumble over mistakes and catch them. 

People seem to have different strengths and interests when it comes to critiquing and editing. Some are fearsome proofreader/grammar Nazis who apparently have the Chicago Manual of Style for a heart. Some are lousy at catching spelling mistakes but are fantastic at questioning the structure and the plot so that the theme is better revealed. Some simply enjoy the story and question where they're confused...I find this incredibly valuable. If I have three people who are all confused about the same thing (independently of one another) then I didn't meet the goal of communicating clearly.

So far I've written short stories, flash fiction, business writing, and anecdotes. None of these are big-buck endeavors so I wasn't going to pay someone to edit them for me when I have people who can be shanghaied into my 'critique group' when need be. (I pay with cookies, return critiques, and, occasionally, begging. Blackmail has not yet been required but it's good to consider!  ) That doesn't mean that I don't sweat my editing, read it out loud with red pen in hand marking as I go, edit some more, pass it off to anyone who'll read it, edit some more, and at some point I finally have to throw up my hands and say, "It's done."

I mean, come on, if you're a perfectionist it will never feel done, right?

If I ever get a novel to a point where I like the manuscript then I'll consider a professional editor. With references. Because that is a LOT of reading and picking over to ask from a friend.


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## garza (Jul 5, 2011)

Candra H - When you say, '_I wonder if people's egos might be getting in the way of reality when  they say they are good enough to edit their own work to a  high/publishable standard..._' you worry me. 

Does this mean I have to send back all the money I've been paid all these years by newspapers, magazines, and book publishers who have published my writing, possibly not realising I do my own editing? Have I been dishonest with them by selling them material that has not been through the hands of an outside editor?


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## Baron (Jul 5, 2011)

garza said:


> Candra H - When you say, '_I wonder if people's egos might be getting in the way of reality when  they say they are good enough to edit their own work to a  high/publishable standard..._' you worry me.
> 
> Does this mean I have to send back all the money I've been paid all these years by newspapers, magazines, and book publishers who have published my writing, possibly not realising I do my own editing? Have I been dishonest with them by selling them material that has not been through the hands of an outside editor?



I'm with you on this.  If everybody took the attitude, "if I don't think I can do this then I don't think anyone else can" nothing would ever get done.  Paid editors live on the hopes of many who will still never get accepted by a publisher or agent and it's better to submit without wasting that money.  For those who choose the self publishing route there are plenty of courses available to help then gain a better ability to clean up their own work.

In 1967, the mystery editor at Macmillan had a manuscript by an unknown writer put before him.  It was a really rough draft but the plot and the story telling gripped him so much that he couldn't put it down.  It was a lot of work but he went through the manuscript line by line, making corrections and suggestions for edits.  The writer was working at the time as a radio announcer and voice-over actor.  He received his first book deal as a result of the hard work put in by that in-house mystery editor.  The author knew that he wasn't a great literary talent but he was prepared to take the suggestions and learn.  What he didn't need to do was pay a large amount of money, speculatively, to an outside source.

The title of the book was "The Scarlatti Inheritance", the author was Robert Ludlum.  The strength of the book, what had taken it beyond the slush pile, was a compelling story.  In total Robert Ludlum wrote 21 novels that featured in the New York Times bestseller list.  He never paid for an editing service.


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## Candra H (Jul 5, 2011)

Okay...



> At no point have I said that this is what you'd get from readers and editors in a publishing house. We've been talking about people who offer a paid editing service, not in-house editors, there's a world of difference.



You're avoiding my question, Baron. 

First though, my initial post was triggered by previous posters talking about how a person only needs an inhouse publishing editor not an independent (professional) one because they should be good enough at what they do to not need one. Which is interesting to me because what happens when a person submits an ms to a traditional publisher and their work needs editing? How does that differ from what an independent editor does for a self-publisher? 

You came along and said - 



> Professional editors don't critique your work. You'll need to pay a reviewer to do that or submit to one of the site's which offer free reviews.



That caught my attention and surprised me because it doesnt make sense in response to my first post, so I tried to follow what you appeared to be saying there. Then I asked you a specific question, this - 



> You're talking about reviews as being the same as a critique. How is that possible? I always thought a review was what a story/novel got from an independent party after it was published...



Will you answer it? Because you seem to be saying professional editors don't critique your work, they only offer input on spelling/grammar/punctuation, and that you need to pay an independent reviewer for an indepth critique (review).

Garza. I'm talking about people writing fiction, not someone like yourself working within a professional industry and creating written non-fiction work to specific guidelines within the parameters of your job description. To borrow a phrase that seems to be doing the rounds a lot lately - there's a world of difference. Why? Because I see a lot of people saying you don't need an editor, your work should be of a high standard for submission, but you don't need outside input to get it there. All you need is your own personal measure of your own skill. 

But ms's get edited after submission by editors in publishing houses. So to me, the previous sentiment makes no sense. So I'm just in here asking questions out of curiosity. And fair enough, making an observation about people's egos based on what I've seen around various writing sites and in various self-published work on the internet. If a person says they're so good their story or novel doesnt need an objective outside opinion and they put it up for sale somewhere and ask people to pay them for the "privilege" of reading it, and the work is full of errors/weaknesses in both structure and technical grammar/punctuation/spelling etc, do you think they're being humble or egotistical?

That question isn't aimed at anyone in particular, I'm just generally curious.


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## Baron (Jul 5, 2011)

Candra H said:


> Okay...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I can understand from your responses why you might feel it necessary to go to a paid editing service.  I suggest you try going back and reading my posts properly.  From your interpretation of them I know I wouldn't consider employing you as an editor.

If you're really interested in professional editing services and aren't prepared to hear advice that you shouldn't waste your money then try browsing a few to see what they have on offer.  You could also check out the posts in the AW water cooler and Writer Beware on this topic.


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## Candra H (Jul 5, 2011)

Baron said:


> I can understand from your responses why you might feel it necessary to go to a paid editing service. I suggest you try going back and reading my posts properly. From your interpretation of them I know I wouldn't consider employing you as an editor.



I have read your posts. You keep avoiding my questions. I'll ask in plain English.



> Professional editors don't critique your work. You'll need to pay a reviewer to do that or submit to one of the site's which offer free reviews.



What exactly do you mean by this?


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## Baron (Jul 5, 2011)

Candra H said:


> I have read your posts. You keep avoiding my questions. I'll ask in plain English.
> 
> 
> 
> What exactly do you mean by this?



It means exactly what it says.  Those services that offer editing services offer exactly that.  There are a few who also offer critiques but it's a separate service.  There are also those who just offer a critique/review service.  All of these are a waste of money to most wannabe writers.  I don't think this could have been expressed more clearly than it has in the preceding posts.

It has also not been suggested that all work going through a traditional publishing house needs editing.  A large percentage is well written enough not to need it.  The readers and editors are there for the work which does.  It's equally true that the fact that something may be self edited doesn't mean that it's badly edited.  There's good stuff out there and there's rubbish.


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## Candra H (Jul 5, 2011)

Baron said:


> It means exactly what it says. Those services that offer editing services offer exactly that. There are a few who also offer critiques but it's a separate service. There are also those who just offer a critique/review service. All of these are a waste of money to most wannabe writers. I don't think this could have been expressed more clearly than it has in the preceding posts.



Okay, so what you're saying is that _some_ professional editing services _do_ offer critiques. Thats not what you said initially but thats cool, you answered my question. You've also given me your views on professional editing services which is pretty enlightening. Are you saying therefore that professional editors who offer critique services are all a waste of money? How can you know that for sure? Arent there professional independent editors out there offering indepth critiques who _are_ worth the money? Surely there must be one or two...


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## Baron (Jul 5, 2011)

What I said was that editing and critiquing are marketed as separate services.  I haven't changed tack on that.  If someone has a good story and lacks the technical skills then I know a couple of people I'd recommend.  However my first recommendation would be to run it past an agent and save the money.  Like the example stated in an earlier post, if it's good enough it'll get through no matter how much editing it needs.


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## Candra H (Jul 5, 2011)

Okay cool, but now we're back to where we started. What about people who self publish and don't have access to either publishers' editors or agents? What do they do?


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## Baron (Jul 5, 2011)

Candra H said:


> Okay cool, but now we're back to where we started. What about people who self publish and don't have access to either publishers' editors or agents? What do they do?



[video=youtube;ElLpKewnxp4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElLpKewnxp4[/video]


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## garza (Jul 5, 2011)

Candra H - Whether writing fiction or non-fiction, the first requirement the writer must meet is the ability to have an idea in sharp focus and the skill needed to write a proper sentence that clearly expresses that idea. Next, the writer must have the skill needed to repeat the process so that people, actions, locations, and time* become clear to the reader. I have written factual accounts of jungle firefights between insurgents and loyalist forces. That's non-fiction. 

To write an account of a fictional firefight between imaginary guerrillas and make-believe soldiers will require the same basic skills, the same ability to express ideas clearly and string them together logically. That basic writing ability I have. To write fiction I must develop the ability to tell a story made up mostly out of whole cloth. That's a different skill, and one I'm just learning. If I do develop a story-telling ability to match my basic writing skill, then I will consider the best road to follow, and it will not involve paying an outside editor. My writing will stand or fall on its own merits as it always has.

When you talk about '...creating written non-fiction work to specific guidelines within the parameters of your job description' you are not talking about what I have done for most of my life. No two writers have exactly the same style whether in fiction or non-fiction. Pick up copies of Newsweek and Time and read some of the articles and essays. You will not see a formula. Staff writers for Newsweek have a certain overall style that is different from staff writers for Time, sort of a different flavour, but those differences are minor compared to the differences in style displayed by freelance writers. Within the broad definitions of the magazines’ styles you yet will see differences displayed by the staff writers. 

Even the venerable inverted pyramid is open to stylistic variation. And as for job description, I've never had one. There is no job description for freelance writers. 

*Who, what, when, where – the basics of the news report. Try writing a short story or a novel without those, along with the sometimes optional how and why.

Edit - If I decide to self publish, the same rule applies. The work will stand on its own merits and be accepted or will not be accepted. Very simple.


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## qwertyman (Jul 6, 2011)

Proof-reading, Copy-editing, Book-editing, Line-editing, Development-editing, and even hybrids, Line-Copy-editing etc.

All of the above, depending on where you are located and your background, be it journalist or novelist, will vary in their usage and application. So, I think it pointless to argue over their demarcation lines*.

However, having said that, a Book Review, for me, sings only one song: a review for public scrutiny after publication.

I have spent hours on the internet looking for a suitable editing service and, in my experience, most editorial sites when offering Line-editing* include a modest to generous package of critique and associated services, and it’s up to the writer to negotiate the best package. It is the market norm not the exception.



			
				baron said:
			
		

> It has also not been suggested that all work going through a traditional publishing house needs editing. A large percentage is well written enough not to need it.


This is ludicrous, on what experience is this based?
This is how a publishing house works, (explained to me by a respected Editor who edited 90 books last year): 

Editor A reads a submission, almost exclusively from an agent, and asks for the complete script. She reads it and, if she thinks is worthy, Line-edits it and passes it to fellow Editors B and C whom she thinks would also like it.

At the end of the week they go to the Commissioning Editor's meeting and Editor A promotes the script, soliciting the support of Editors B and C. If the support is forthcoming the Commissioning Editor will authorise a contract subject to the approval of the sales team. At this point the script has been through the hands of Editors A,B,C and the commissioning Editor, all adding their notes and corrections. If the sales team agree a contract will be offered. However, 


			
				garza said:
			
		

> The work will stand on its own merits and be accepted or will not be accepted.


If the sales department decides there is no market - for any reason, fashion, glut, disinterest, whatever – it will not be published. It does not stand on it’s own merits it is subject to market conditions and any writer who ignores that is going to be disappointed.
By the end of the process it will have been through the hands of several editors each picking up what the previous one has dropped and will end up on the proof-reader’s desk for the final edit. And she/he's there for a reason, it is expected that even the experienced eye of four editors might overlook something - and from there to press. 

If you have a different experience I would like to hear it.


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## Baron (Jul 6, 2011)

Authors whose work has been published with no need for in-house editing:

James Joyce, Sylvia Plath, Samuel Beckett, Virginia Woolf, Denis Wheatley, Paul Gallico, James Clavell, Auberon Waugh, Edna O'Brien, to name but a few.


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## qwertyman (Jul 6, 2011)

Auberon Waugh was famous for saying that but I've seen typos in his newspaper column. What's your source for the others?


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## Baron (Jul 6, 2011)

Beckett is noted as being among the greatest writers of English prose (even though the majority of his work was written in French and then translated) and is the only person James Joyce would allow to touch his manuscripts.  James Clavell was a friend of my father's and Edna O'Brien is still a friend of the family.  I did a focus on the Bloomsbury Group when I studied for my fine arts degree and Virginia Woolf would only accept input from other members of the group.  Sylvia Plath devoted herself so much to her studies, particularly at Cambridge, that she had a far greater mastery of language than any of the editors employed at Faber and Faber, among whom was T.S. Elliot.  Eliot passed his own work over to Ezra Pound for editing.

Qwerty, despite the fact you may choose to argue certain points which really aren't relevant to the OP, you confirm that in-house editing happens with those who take the traditional route.  People can read responses here, in other threads on this topic and on other writing sites.  They can draw their own conclusions and decide whether they want to spend their money.  If they have something that's publishable then it's a waste because the publisher will deal with it.  If they're written something, intending to self publish, and nobody wants to buy then it's also a waste.


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## qwertyman (Jul 6, 2011)

Baron said:


> Qwerty, despite the fact you may choose to argue certain points which really aren't relevant to the OP.


Maybe, but I am only responding to the points you raised and to which Candrah is no longer able to.

So:-
James Clavell: I am an admirer but he didn't edit his own stuff.


> Gollob spotted a foot-high yellowed manuscript in the office of a friend, and asked about it. The friend said that the novel was King Rat, by a guy named Clavell, and had been rejected all over town. Gollob asked to read it, discovered it was awful--but there was some mysterious redeeming power in it. Gollob set to work on it, twelve hours a day for six weeks, and cut the thing in half, and submitted it to Clavell, who was a screenwriter in Hollywood


.

TS Eliot! Blimey, did he write a novel?

Edna Obrien: – I went to, 'An evening with Edna Obrien', when she was promoting _Byron in Love_, as I remember it was full of anecdotes between herself and editors.

James Joyce’s Ulysses, whether he liked it or not has been edited many times. And as far as I recall Beckett’s input was to take dictation when Joyce’s eyes were going.

Beckett’s novels were heavily influenced by Joyce (principally _Finnegans Wake_) without plot or structure and little or no punctuation. So, I suppose you could say it wasn’t edited, how could it be - he made the rules.

As for the Bloomesbury Group, they certainly sought each other's opinions.


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## Baron (Jul 6, 2011)

qwertyman said:


> Maybe, but I am only responding to the points you raised and to which Candrah is no longer able to.
> 
> So:-
> James Clavell: I am an admirer but he didn't edit his own stuff.
> ...



As Edna O'Brien is getting on in years then it's no surprise that she may rely on in-house editors with later works.  It certainly isn't the case with earlier works.  I don't know what the story is on King Rat but I know the Shogun series went straight through to the press.

The question, as far as the Bloomsbury Group is concerned, of course they sought each others' opinions.  That was part of the purpose of the group.  That isn't comparable with having the work edited by a paid editor, in-house or otherwise.

I said that Eliot was an editor at Faber and Faber at the time that Sylvia Plath was published with them, not that he was a novelist.  If you can construe that from my comment about his relationship with Ezra Pound then I understand why you feel the need to get your own work edited.

*Perhaps we can let this thread get back on topic now.

A reminder that moderation is only discussed with those involved.*


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## garza (Jul 6, 2011)

qwerty - An essential merit any commercial writing must possess is marketability. That should be understood by everyone. If I sit in the middle of a revolution and send the wire service a beautifully written and well-researched article on tropical flowers, that article will go in the trash and not to the wire. So I stand by what I said. '_The work will stand on its own merits and be accepted or will not be accepted._' 

There is ego involved whenever we believe we can accomplish something that is worthwhile and that requires skill. Without that belief in ourselves, call it ego, arrogance, whatever, we would never try to do anything. And to my simple mind, the hours spent on the Internet chasing down the perfect editor would be hours better spent polishing one's writing skills. That's how I personally spend most of my time as I work on learning to write fiction.

On a visit to one of my son's construction sites I watched as he and the  arechitect discussed some blueprints. I thought back to when my son was  a baby and I had to change his diapers. There was an impulse to go over  and say, 'Who do you think you are to believe you can build a  building?' That impulse came from the knowledge that I would not have  any idea in the world how to read the blueprint, much less take charge  of construction, so who was this kid to believe he could do it? 

To me it seems it's that same impulse that motivates those who say, 'Who do you think you are, that you can edit your own work?' I worked closely with (bugged the hell out of) two newspaper editors for a couple of years as a teen-ager. Since then I've edited my own work. I've had no complaints and I've never gone hungry. Now if I can learn to write fantastic fiction I'll go past paying the rent and buying the groceries to fame and fortune. I'm not holding my breath on that one, but I will continue to edit my own writing.

Edit - Oops. Didn't see that last comment in time. Sorry Cap'n.


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## qwertyman (Jul 6, 2011)

garza said:


> On a visit to one of my son's construction sites I watched as he and the arechitect discussed some blueprints. I thought back to when my son was a baby and I had to change his diapers. There was an impulse to go over and say, 'Who do you think you are to believe you can build a building?' That impulse came from the knowledge that I would not have any idea in the world how to read the blueprint, much less take charge of construction, so who was this kid to believe he could do it?
> .



Hi Garza, that's an interesting analogy. Knowing your son as intimately as you do, it ineviably clouds your judgement and makes your view* subjective*. All I'm saying is, when something you have created is close to you - how can you be (totally) *objective*?


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## garza (Jul 6, 2011)

I've never felt the need to have any work of mine checked before I send it off to an agent or publisher. If I reach the point that I need such help, I will stop writing. Of course I'm already officially retired so the world would notice little change.

However, if a writer believes that he, or she, cannot be objective, or does not possess the skills to succeed, then I suppose that the search for an outside editor would be needed. As you say in one of your posts above, it's up to the writer to negotiate for the best package. But what should be included? How far must the editing service go before the editor becomes a co-author? What price must be paid? How long will the process take? Will the original author retain all rights? 

These are some of the questions that would, seems to me, need to be answered before any writer commits his or her work into the hands of an independent editor.


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## Offeiriad (Jul 6, 2011)

Well, as I read through this thread and discover the over-all disdain for independent editors, I won't mention that I edit.


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## garza (Jul 6, 2011)

So can you answer some of the questions about independent editing services for those of us who've only dealt with publishers' editors or those who've never dealt with editors at all?


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## Offeiriad (Jul 6, 2011)

My editing experience lies with working for a small publisher for a few years and editing here and there for others for free. But I will answer questions as I am able, with honesty.


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## qwertyman (Jul 6, 2011)

garza said:


> However, if a writer believes that he, or she, cannot be objective.




Eh! How can you be objective about being objective?


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## Baron (Jul 6, 2011)

qwertyman said:


> Eh! How can you be objective about being objective?



If no professional could be objective then there would be no professionals.


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## Nicky (Jul 6, 2011)

when you guys talk about independant editors are you also talking about those 'book doctors' who edit, analyze and generally "fix" the whole book for a couple thousand dollars?


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## qwertyman (Jul 6, 2011)

Baron said:


> If no professional could be objective then there would be no professionals.



I'm not an editor but we have one on this thread.

Hi Offeiriad, I'm not sure about this but isn't the above a dangling modifier, sometimes referred to as a 'hanging modifier'?


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## Baron (Jul 6, 2011)

Something is certainly dangling.


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## MJ Preston (Jul 6, 2011)

I hired an editing service and that was after five drafts. Even after employing an editor I still found some issues. A friend of mine who is a published war historian and has six books to his credit says he still found mistakes in his books after they were published by mainstream pubs. There is nothing wrong with a second set of eyes, but an editor should be there for mechanics, not as a means of rewriting a book.


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## garza (Jul 6, 2011)

qwerty - The first sign that a person ought to recognise is a belief that nothing in the first draft can be cut. Compare it to catching yourself hiding a bottle of rum in the toilet tank. It's a tipoff that you have a problem. 

The cure for a lack of objectivity is not, I believe, to turn your work over to someone else. The cure is to learn to see the excess baggage in a sentence, to learn proper usage so you don't put 'than' where 'from' ought to be, to delve into the the etymology of words so you understand that 'decimate' does not mean 'mass slaughter', to have on hand or know how to readily find on the Internet answers to questions about grammar and rhetoric, to learn new words by reading them in real books and using a good dictionary (preferably from Oxford, of course) and not searching a thesaurus. 

The cure of a lack of objectivity takes effort. To learn to write properly takes effort. To learn to edit properly takes effort. To become skilled at any craft takes effort. And there must come a time when the craftsman can look at his work and judge it properly. I've known a few master cabinet makers - we have one in the village - and I've never known one who believed he needed to have someone come and inspect his work to see if it's okay. 

Offeiriad - Here are a few questions I asked in a previous post. 

What should be included in an editing service? How far must the editing service go before  the editor becomes a co-author? What price must be paid? How long will  the process take? Will the original author retain all rights? 

Those are a fewquestions I thought of quickly, but they should do to start in helping someone looking for an editor to know what they should be able to find.


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## Deleted member 33527 (Jul 6, 2011)

I don't know much about professional editing services, but it seems to me like you could save a lot of money just by running it by other good writers you know and trust. I remember Red Venus had some people from WF look over her book for SPAG before she got it published.


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## Baron (Jul 7, 2011)

Editor:  You're going to have to change the name, Will.  This is never going to work.  It's much too wimpish, in my opinion.

Will:  Wimpish?  What do you mean, Wimpish?

Editor:  It's soft, Will.  You need a much stronger name to hook people.  I think you should try something like Jim.  Now that's a good strong name.

Will:  But he's an Italian.  Jim won't work.

Editor:  That's another thing; setting this story in Italy.  Given the political climate I think that's a bit iffy.  Anyway, who ever goes to Verona?  I think it needs to be a bit more gritty and closer to home.  Try setting it in Manchester and Liverpool rather than Verona and Mantua.  I don't think anyone who doesn't live there will have even heard of Mantua.

Will:  Call him Jim and set it in Manchester and Liverpool?  Are you serious?

Editor:  Absolutely, mate.  That'll really grab people.  Give them something they can identify with.  You want this to sell, don't you?

Will:  I'm going to need to think about this.

Editor:  Don't think too long.  We've got a deadline to meet, you know.  Just one more thing; this warring families stuff. Don't you think that's a bit overplayed?  Come to think of it, I'm not too keen on the ending; it's a bit depressing.  Do you think you could brighten it up a bit?

Will:  Let me get this straight; set it in Manchester and Liverpool, drop the warring families, give it a happy ending and change the name to Jim.

Editor:  You've got it mate.  Think you can make the changes in time?  I can see it now, a definite winner; Jim and Juliet.  Now let me take a quick gander at this other one.  What's this?  Taming of the Shrew?  No way, Will.  The animal rights crowd will hang us out to dry.


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## theorphan (Jul 7, 2011)

I am surprised by how much help I have found on this site by not even asking questions.  Thank you to those who responded to this eventhough I am not the one to post the original question.  I was just about to look more into this topic.


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## Offeiriad (Jul 7, 2011)

qwertyman said:


> I'm not an editor but we have one on this thread.
> 
> Hi Offeiriad, I'm not sure about this but isn't the above a dangling modifier, sometimes referred to as a 'hanging modifier'?



I'll borrow from another thread to explain what a dangling/hanging modifier is. It's from yarn's opening for his short story. I pointed it out to him and he's dealt with it already.



> At the entrance to the house, he hesitated, listening with gritted teeth to their frolicking.



Now, we all know that we listen with our ears, not our teeth, but this dangling modifier makes it sound like this person is listening with his teeth.

I wouldn't say baron's statement is an example of this.


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## Offeiriad (Jul 7, 2011)

garza said:


> Offeiriad - Here are a few questions I asked in a previous post.
> 
> What should be included in an editing service? How far must the editing service go before the editor becomes a co-author? What price must be paid? How long will the process take? Will the original author retain all rights?
> 
> Those are a fewquestions I thought of quickly, but they should do to start in helping someone looking for an editor to know what they should be able to find.



Based on my *past* experiences:

1. That should be discussed between the author and the editor.
2. I can only answer this in the form of 'what would I do?'... I would say that if I get to a point where I'm making more corrections or suggesting more changes than I think I should, then I would stop and start communicating with the author and tell him that it's not really ready for me, nor would it be ready for a publisher. So, for me, there would never be a question of me being a co-author.
3. Something that is fair to both parties.
4. I don't recall who on this thread said the editor they hired took a long time to do it, but months seems like an awful long time. I work a full-time job and have managed to get through a manuscript in a more than reasonable time. By that I mean the writer didn't expect to receive it back so quickly, but was also impressed with my work.
5. Again, as with the answer to your second question, I can only answer it in terms of myself. I guess being a writer in my own right, I understand the need for a writer to maintain all rights to their works. I would never require rights to be given to me for any period of time, nor would I honestly expect to be mentioned anywhere in the acknowledgements. The one time I was asked how I would like my name to appear in the acknowledgements for helping someone, I told them that I didn't want my name there at all.


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## garza (Jul 7, 2011)

Offeiriad - Thank you. Your information should help those who may be considering an independent editor.

Edit - So that no one need go searching for the questions, here they are.

1. What should be included in an editing service? 

2. How far must the editing  service go before  the editor becomes a co-author? 

3. What price must be  paid? 

4. How long will  the process take? 

5. Will the original author retain  all rights?


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## Offeiriad (Jul 7, 2011)

Perhaps this is the type of thread that can be pinned? Or some variation of it with the questions and answers, minus all the back and forth... stuff.


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## Baron (Jul 7, 2011)

It's becoming too focused on one person, who happens to offer an editing service, for that to be considered.


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## Offeiriad (Jul 7, 2011)

I wasn't aware that there was a focus on anything other than asking questions and getting answers.


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## Baron (Jul 7, 2011)

Offeiriad said:


> I wasn't aware that there was a focus on anything other than asking questions and getting answers.



Which could be viewed as a subtle way of promoting a service.  If you have anything further to say that doesn't relate specifically to the topic please say it by PM.


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