# depression



## escorial (Jul 19, 2015)

i come across these stories all the time and it is so scary just how many people decide to do it...they just can't live with whatever crushes them inside and sometimes like this story there is no answers..i read it made me cry and angry at depression the killer inside that infects every part of a life.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Jul 19, 2015)

Teenage suicide is a big problem in the states, too. You just think and wish if only they could hang on a few more years, they'd find some sort of way of being able to cope with it.


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## dither (Jul 19, 2015)

Life eh?


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## JustRob (Jul 19, 2015)

I read the report. It's so sad, so incomprehensible. Even when people reach out society doesn't necessarily latch on to their needs and they collapse back inwards. We, men especially, can be so insular, too tied up with presenting an image to share our thoughts and give others the chance to interact with them. My signature text is not just a smart remark but a fundamental observation on human life. Somehow it didn't work for Oscar so eventually reality eluded him. A terrible waste and shame, but where do we really believe the fault lies, or doesn't society as a whole care enough to consider that? Maybe only those of us who've been there and returned realise just how many people live so close to the edge. Tears of a clown; yes, I've known them.


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## Gumby (Jul 19, 2015)

So sad. I haven't read Oscar's story, but there are so many others, too.


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## walker (Jul 19, 2015)

My feeling is that if they have somewhere to turn, they will turn there. Unfortunately, many teenagers do not, and they lack the coping skills of adults.


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## KLJo (Jul 19, 2015)

walker said:


> My feeling is that if they have somewhere to turn, they will turn there. Unfortunately, many teenagers do not, and they lack the coping skills of adults.



This is logical, but not necessarily true. It is important not to lay blame on the family, and even more important to recognize that mental illness does not have to make sense. The reasons for suicide cannot always be talked out, and do not imply failure on the part of those most intimate with the struggling teen.


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## dither (Jul 19, 2015)

Absolutely KLJo,
i applaud your comment.


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## escorial (Jul 19, 2015)

MrM.....stats are probably similar in that it's a bigger cause of death for men mainly than death through physical illness over here...

dither...it's all part of life...true

just rob....yes..how many live close to the edge is scary for sure..

gumby..so many so true

walker..everyone needs someone sometime...but it's so hard for them to reach out..

kljo...it's such a mystery..so often why...

to be honest one of the reasons i don't read newspapers is to avoid all these stories...


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## KLJo (Jul 19, 2015)

Hmm, I had a really strong negative reaction to the word "mystery", Escorial.

I don't think it is a mystery at all. It is our discomfort and the taboo that makes us label it as such.

It is a combination of naturally occuring chemical imbalance, genetics, imperfect coping skills (as Walker suggested), wrapped up with flawed expectations of ourselves and others. These things should be easier to assess and address than they currently are.

Removing the stigma would go a long way to helping those at risk.


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## Mistique (Jul 19, 2015)

KLJo said:


> This is logical, but not necessarily true. It is important not to lay blame on the family, and even more important to recognize that mental illness does not have to make sense. The reasons for suicide cannot always be talked out, and do not imply failure on the part of those most intimate with the struggling teen.



I would agree. I have been close to that edge at times and I have always had someone to turn to, most of the time more than one, but in those moments you just dont see it and in those moments its really hard to reach out. Most of the time in those moment I would look at others being happy, especially those close to me, and I just couldn't being myself to wrecking that happiness by telling them I was considering something like that. I didnt think I had the right to do that to them.


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## KLJo (Jul 19, 2015)

Mistique said:


> I would agree. I have been close to that edge at times and I have always had someone to turn to, most of the time more than one, but in those moments you just dont see it and in those moments its really hard to reach out. Most of the time in those moment I would look at others being happy, especially those close to me, and I just couldn't being myself to wrecking that happiness by telling them I was considering something like that. I didnt think I had the right to do that to them.



I'm glad that you made it through ok. You are awesome, and strong, and just all-around amazing!
Great job!

I've always really liked the idea of suicide hotlines. It seems like a great way to anonymously let some of your feelings out, when you aren't ready to share with the people you love. 

[US: 1-800-273-Talk
listing for other countries *here*
in case any readers want to check them out.]


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## escorial (Jul 19, 2015)

KLJo said:


> Hmm, I had a really strong negative reaction to the word "mystery", Escorial.
> 
> I don't think it is a mystery at all. It is our discomfort and the taboo that makes us label it as such.
> 
> ...



the mystery is for me that nobody can know what another persons thinking...they may predict an outcome...if anything life has taught me is that as individuals we are in essence complex humans and what we do will often leave those closest to us mystified...and i get the stigma of mental health through my own personal experience...people just can't cope with it on so many levels...


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## Mistique (Jul 19, 2015)

KLJo said:


> I'm glad that you made it through ok. You are awesome, and strong, and just all-around amazing!
> Great job!
> 
> I've always really liked the idea of suicide hotlines. It seems like a great way to anonymously let some of your feelings out, when you aren't ready to share with the people you love.
> ...



Thank you 

Yes, they can be quite helpful. For me it was a chatroom, suicidechat, where I let off steam. Its a support chat and its where I would (and sometimes still) go. I still get low at times, especialy when the hormones of the treatment are driving me mad, but i've found ways for me to cope with that.


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## dither (Jul 19, 2015)

I'm sorry guys but i think that some people should be allowed to just "exit", y'know?

If a person can be enticed away from the edge, well fine. But if not..................................

That's my view and i'm sorry if it offends.


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## escorial (Jul 19, 2015)

dither said:


> I'm sorry guys but i think that some people should be allowed to just "exit", y'know?
> 
> If a person can be enticed away from the edge, well fine. But if not..................................
> 
> That's my view and i'm sorry if it offends.



it's so complex that one but i respect your pov..some people...i think i can understand that..


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## dither (Jul 19, 2015)

Some people?
More than the world realises maybe i think.

Society needs to get real on this, smell the coffee.

And yes, it is complex.

Might be best if i go now and give this thread a swerve.


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## KLJo (Jul 19, 2015)

Interesting. How would you determine the appropriate level of mental stability to make such a decision when a person contemplating suicide is a definition of poor mental health?

Catch 22, no?


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## walker (Jul 19, 2015)

KLJo said:


> This is logical, but not necessarily true. It is important not to lay blame on the family, and even more important to recognize that mental illness does not have to make sense. The reasons for suicide cannot always be talked out, and do not imply failure on the part of those most intimate with the struggling teen.



You're right. It's not necessarily true that this person had nobody to turn to. But it might be true. How do you know what the family dynamic was like? I don't know much about this case. I googled it, and didn't find out much more.

Read "Home to the Wilderness" by Sally Carrighar. She's the author of "One Day at Teton Marsh", a book that I absolutely loved when I was a young teenager. "Home to the Wilderness" is her autobiography. She describes her mother attempting to murder her more than once when she was a young girl, and very nearly succeeding. These were physical assaults, and the mother presented the aspect of a loving parent to the outside world. On the continuum of loving parents to shoots-kid-and-leaves-them-in-a-shallow-grave, there is a little bit of everything.

My wife taught once in a large public high school, 4,000 kids, that had historically had problems with bomb threats, and even had ended up with kids in jail for that sort of thing. My wife found a "hit list", it was titled that way, with her name on it, and some other people's names. She took it to the Principal. The next day the kids who made the hit list told my wife that the Principal had called them into his office, and told them that my wife had turned them in. Now, imagine that it was not my wife and the principal, but a child and parent participating in a dynamic like that. An incident like that might happen once--big deal. Or it might happen repeatedly, daily, over the 16 year or longer life of a child. The characteristics of similar incidents would be betraying the trust of the child, creating unsafe situations for the child by talking behind their back, and generally behaving in a hostile and antagonistic way towards the child, even though the hostile behavior might be described in another way, and even applauded by other people. The parent that does something like that might successfully portray themselves to the outside world as a loving parent, and their behavior as loving behavior. They might even believe that themselves. They may spend a great deal of energy trying to convince themselves and the outside world that they are a loving parent, but the whole show is for the benefit of the parent and whoever is listening to them, not the child. The child, after a long period of time, knows what is going on, no matter how much the parent waves their arms and tries to convince the next door neighbors otherwise. That kind of psychological damage leaves the child with no one to turn to. You might say, "the school counselor," or, "their best friend," but if the child has already learned that they can't trust their parents, who can they trust?

So, if you know something about this case that I don't, please tell. But I would guess that you would have to have lived with that family for a long period of time to really know. Myself, I don't know. Some people kill their kids, and others, short of that, still manage to exhibit all kinds of antagonistic behavior towards their children. I hope that wasn't the case here, but I just don't know. They might have been loving parents. They might not have been. It could have been anything.


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## escorial (Jul 19, 2015)

you can split it into two categories...copers and non-copers of life....take in all the factors chemical inbalances to life experiences and what you end up with is a reason why they might have acted the way they did and the reason why they decided to take their own life is because they couldn't cope...


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## KLJo (Jul 20, 2015)

Walker, 
I think the professionals like teachers, social workers, police officers have an obligation to investigate further. That is not what I am talking about.

I am speaking to you, a man, as the mother of a teenager with major depression, and four failed suicide attempts, as well as countless, horrifying incidents of self-harm. 

I have no knowledge of this case. I can only tell you about the toll of hundreds of sleepless nights on suicide watch because her eyes were darty, or she bit her lip--her only signs that something was wrong. We've had 5 psychiatrists, 3 psychologists, 5 hospital stays, 2 countries, 1 7 month institutionalization, 5 counselors,  and scores of meds, she shared a room with my husband and I for most of the years 14-16, simply so we could keep her alive and stop her from removing the top layers of her skin with a razor blade until she was covered in blood. A horrific sight that I've witnessed more often than I care to admit. Regardless of the fact that all household sharps were kept under lock and key. She could watch an episode of Glee, laugh and sing with me, kiss me good night, write a note and down a bottle of pills she'd smuggled in. It was that fast. We had to prison-roll her room.

I can also tell you about the other burdens like the massive financial cost, and how ALL free time becomes driving to and from the hospital or institution. I can tell you about having to pretend that all this is ok, because your husband is losing it, and the rest of your family needs you to be on your "A game"

And I can tell you about doubt. "Is this my fault?" "Am I not doing something right?" "Can I do something better" ""PLEASE, SOMEONE TELL ME. WHAT DOES SHE NEED!"

I can tell you about never being offended when someone sends a social worker to "Check things out", because you desperately want their input. We've had so many I've lost count. I can tell you about believing it is YOUR fault. Be smarter, try harder, sleep less.

I can tell you, that unless you are the mandated reporter for the child, your judgement is yet another weight on already overloaded shoulders. 

I can tell you that what I needed was for someone to say, "Great job! Keep up the good work!" 

To end on a positive note, I can tell you that, sometimes, you get lucky. Your kid lives. She graduates with a 4.0 and  an ACT score high enough to go to any college she wants. You find the right medication. You find the right therapy style. You get to breathe again. 

I wonder how many mothers I cried with in psych ward waiting rooms got my happy ending?


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## walker (Jul 20, 2015)

Kljo,

I'm sorry you had to go through all that.

I have been a mandated reporter, but not an investigator. If I were an investigator of a suicide or suicide attempt, I'd look at the family first. I might well end up somewhere else, with peers for example, but I would start with the family.

A kid who is 16 years old is under the influence of nothing so much as his family. Most 16 year old kids have never lived with anybody other than their family. In the opening chapters of Necessary Losses, by Judith Viorst, (maybe at the very beginning of the book? I haven't read it in a while), she writes about a kid in a hospital bed with severe burns, calling for their mother. But the mother is the one that burned the kid. Nobody else in most children's life has that kind of bond, receives that kind of loyalty, or has that kind of power to hurt.

Life is complicated, and I don't like the word blame around suicide, because a suicide is a complicated event that involves somebody's whole life, not just a single person or a small group of people. So when you say that you can't blame the family, I agree with you. But not blaming the family should not be a synonym for not looking at what is going on in the family at all. You look, you move on, or you decide to take a closer look.


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## shadowwalker (Jul 20, 2015)

escorial said:


> you can split it into two categories...copers and non-copers of life....take in all the factors chemical inbalances to life experiences and what you end up with is a reason why they might have acted the way they did and the reason why they decided to take their own life is because they couldn't cope...



I wouldn't really accept the "coper/non-coper" thing. It's really not a matter of "coping" - were it that easy! Wondering if it will ever go away, if you'll ever feel hope again, if you'll ever _feel _again... I went for years living simply because I couldn't dredge up the energy for killing myself. I wondered if I would ever feel love for my family members again - they were just other people for so long... If one makes it through that, it's not so hard to keep living. But making it through is not coping - it's pure chance. Anything or nothing could tip the scales.


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## KLJo (Jul 20, 2015)

Walker,

I really appreciate the sentiment, but I'm not the least bit sorry. 

I'm proud of my amazing daughter, and the woman she is becoming. I'm also proud of myself and my family for how well we weathered that storm. 

I feel like you're missing two key points that I was hoping to illustrate by sharing that experience. I understand that you might be different, but I'm speaking to the average person I have encountered. I think if you step outside your role as educator/mandated reporter you will see better what I mean.

1. "Blame" is everywhere when your teen attempts, or commits, suicide. Friends, families, strangers, "professionals" all do more than just explore the possibility that family dynamics are a contributing factor. 

There is a spotlight on every move you make. No matter how devoted I am to my children, and how great my husband and I are at parenting, there was an foolish, and uneducated, amount of judging going on. 

My point is that it is simply not useful, or helpful, to families in crisis, like mine once was, and the assumptions and judgement do not stop with remission of mental illness or death. 

2. You're still not in the best frame of mind if your second stop is observing friends. 

People survive abuse, peer pressure, etc all the time without suicide or self harm. The different types of mental illness are medical conditions that might be exacerbated, but not caused by, lifestyle.

What you're saying is akin to looking in a lunchbox for the cause of a child's diabetes. You might glean some valuable information to educate them on living better, but you are not going to cure their disease, or find the cause.

Viewing mental illness as the result of external forces is not only wrong, it is a huge and unfair burden on all parties.


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## Mistique (Jul 20, 2015)

KLJo, I am so sorry you and your daughter had to go through that, but I'm utterly pleased that she made it through. You deserve far more than a 'great job' and I imagine that when you look at your daughter now, doing so much better, that you know that


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## Mistique (Jul 20, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> I wouldn't really accept the "coper/non-coper" thing. It's really not a matter of "coping" - were it that easy! Wondering if it will ever go away, if you'll ever feel hope again, if you'll ever _feel _again... I went for years living simply because I couldn't dredge up the energy for killing myself. I wondered if I would ever feel love for my family members again - they were just other people for so long... If one makes it through that, it's not so hard to keep living. But making it through is not coping - it's pure chance. Anything or nothing could tip the scales.



i also didnt agree with the coper/non coper thing as for me it suggests that this is happenings to some and not others because they 'are the non copers' and I dont think its that simple. I believe anyone could end up taking their own lifes if they are pushed over the edge far enough (by hormones, bad life events and so on).


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## walker (Jul 20, 2015)

KLJo said:


> What you're saying is akin to looking in a lunchbox for the cause of a child's diabetes. You might glean some valuable information to educate them on living better, but you are not going to cure their disease, or find the cause.



I have twenty-two years of continuous recovery, no slips. The idea that my issues were genetic was presented to me the first day I walked into the rooms. I never picked it up. Some people do. An obvious benefit of that idea, right or wrong, is that neither the addict nor their family bears any responsibility for the addict's condition. It just happened, right? Chance. Luck of the draw. Nothing to see here, move along.

If I'm a medical professional and I have a ten-year old with Type 2 diabetes who weighs three hundred pounds in front of me, you better believe I'm looking in their lunchbox. After that, I'm looking at who _packed_ their lunchbox. I'm interested not only in treating the condition, but also prevention. As an adult, I make my own bad decisions. As a kid, other people make bad decisions for me. Over the ten year life span of that child, who bought the thirteen cases of soda every week at COSTCO, and slapped down the bucket of KFC or bag of Big Macs on the table for dinner every night? There is no healing for that child without considering the whole family. Where do they eat, when, who makes the choices about food, etc. I use what I learn to advise the next set of young parents that comes along.

I don't see where this idea that the mental state of a child can be neatly disentangled from the family around them comes from. Wait, maybe I do see.


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## KLJo (Jul 20, 2015)

So, to be clear, what are some of the examples of the mental equivalent of a 300lb, diabetic child that you are suggesting my daughter may have been subjected to.*

Further, isn't that a bit of a stretch, since we were discussing children who appear to have healthy home lives? Are you suggesting that the more appropriate analogy of the 5' tall, 95lb kid with type 1 diabetes must be the victim of a shady home life as well?

Please note we are in complete agreement that PROFESSIONALS need to have a good look, or two,  at all safety factors in the best interests of the child. 

*I'm not sure if this will read as aggressive. I want to explain that I do not mean it to sound that way. I am actively interested in fleshing this out, and trying to understand your position. Please include any non-abuse examples, as we had bi-weekly 
visits from social workers who intervene with familits in crisis and offer support, we also attended family counseling, personal counseling, and in all cases were found to be beyond fit parents.


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## Kevin (Jul 20, 2015)

apples and oranges... type II diabetes it is often clear what the cause is, and they know how it works; mental illness not so. They do not know what causes it, how it works or how to stop it. There are tendencies but that's it. All they can do is attempt to treat.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Jul 20, 2015)

Okay, can we all agree that every person has a different experience with depression? There is not a one size fit all solution for anybody or anything. If there was we'd have a cure for it now, wouldn't we?


So can we all get along? 


EDIT: And basically what Kevin said


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## shadowwalker (Jul 20, 2015)

I don't even want to get into addictions versus mental illnesses...


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## Foxee (Jul 20, 2015)

Just happened to be starting into this video lecture when I saw this thread so I'll share for anyone who wants to watch it. 
*Stanford's Sapolsky on Depression in the U.S.*
Edit: Holy cow, I just finished watching this and I highly recommend watching it with a notebook and pen. Lots of good info.


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## walker (Jul 20, 2015)

Kevin said:


> apples and oranges... type II diabetes it is often clear what the cause is, and they know how it works; mental illness not so. They do not know what causes it, how it works or how to stop it. There are tendencies but that's it. All they can do is attempt to treat.



This is true, but despite not having ultimate answers to the questions we have about the causes of mental illness, we still ask those questions, do we not? And we have clues to the answers, do we not? 

Otherwise, the jailer says, "I'm sorry, but we don't know the causes of mental illness, we can only treat. Therefore I am off the hook for having kept prisoners in continuous solitary confinement for more than a decade in my facility."

I see the two basic positions here as this: 1) You can't look at the family, they had nothing to do with it. 2) Look at the family along with all of the other factors in the child's life.

One position seems extreme to me, the other reasonable. Which is which? Kind of like a Rorschach test. Different answers for different people, as we can see from this thread! 

And yes, we can all get along. I hope that the family and loved ones of this young man are doing well, and I wish the same to Kljo and her family.


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## KLJo (Jul 20, 2015)

Thanks Walker! We are great!

I thought I'd better clarify, since MrMustard's comment makes me think that trying to discuss this on 4 hours sleep, and in the middle of two very busy days, isn't going as well as I had hoped. 

I am the same as Walker. I can discuss this in a matter-of-fact way, and very little personal pride wrapped up in the answers we all arrive at. I'm offering my situation up as fodder for discussion because I feel like we are a good example of the case for genetics, and pathophysiology OVER nurture. I also feel like I can offer some insight into dealing with the stigma and blame, and it's counter-productive effect.

And especially, I am pleased to be able to access a sounding board of Walker's caliber, because in my short time here I have come to greatly respect the structure, his intelligence, and level of thought, he puts in to his posts. See aliens thread for examples. His work is top shelf and I expect to learn, and maybe, humbly, to educate on this subject which is such a big part of my day-to-day life.
I appreciate the opportunity.

I'm going to sneak in lunch, to better reflect on the latest posts, but I hope we can continue this conversation.


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## walker (Jul 20, 2015)

All right, Kljo, here's a big Bugs Bunny smooch for you and everybody else on this thread. I learned from what you wrote. Peace.


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## KLJo (Jul 20, 2015)

Foxee said:


> Just happened to be starting into this video lecture when I saw this thread so I'll share for anyone who wants to watch it.
> *Stanford's Sapolsky on Depression in the U.S.*
> Edit: Holy cow, I just finished watching this and I highly recommend watching it with a notebook and pen. Lots of good info.



Took me a while to get through this, but it was amazing! I was pretty thrilled that he used the comparison to Diabetes too. +8 Ego points for me. 

Thanks for posting that. It was everything I wanted to say wrapped up in delicious science coating.




walker said:


> All right, Kljo, here's a big Bugs Bunny smooch for you and everybody else on this thread. I learned from what you wrote. Peace.



I have no idea what that means, but I'm just gonna strut like it's a good thing.


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## escorial (Jul 21, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> I wouldn't really accept the "coper/non-coper" thing. It's really not a matter of "coping" - were it that easy! Wondering if it will ever go away, if you'll ever feel hope again, if you'll ever _feel _again... I went for years living simply because I couldn't dredge up the energy for killing myself. I wondered if I would ever feel love for my family members again - they were just other people for so long... If one makes it through that, it's not so hard to keep living. But making it through is not coping - it's pure chance. Anything or nothing could tip the scales.



you've been there...fought it...a battle you defeated or the old adage..to win the war you have to lose a few battles...either way your comments deeply affected me and it was brave of you to express such a personal POV....thanks


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## dither (Jul 25, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> I wouldn't really accept the "coper/non-coper" thing. It's really not a matter of "coping" - were it that easy! Wondering if it will ever go away, if you'll ever feel hope again, if you'll ever _feel _again... I went for years living simply because I couldn't dredge up the energy for killing myself. I wondered if I would ever feel love for my family members again - they were just other people for so long... If one makes it through that, it's not so hard to keep living. But making it through is not coping - it's pure chance. Anything or nothing could tip the scales.



I am so able to relate to this.


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## escorial (Jul 25, 2015)

dither said:


> I am so able to relate to this.




that's the thing with depression....only people who have been there will get it fully


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## dither (Jul 25, 2015)

And here lies the rub.

Isn't that a famous quote?
Not my words for sure.


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## escorial (Jul 25, 2015)

life eh !...now that's a famous quote


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## dither (Jul 25, 2015)

It does for me.


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## Blade (Jul 25, 2015)

escorial said:


> that's the thing with depression....only people who have been there will get it fully



That is true of things in general in life though. Only a bus driver knows the 'insides' of the occupation distinct from the casual impression outsiders may have of it.

An argument for recovered whatevers helping others struggling with the particular issue.:eagerness:


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## escorial (Jul 25, 2015)

Blade said:


> That is true of things in general in life though.:eagerness:



life's journey in a nutshell man...so true lar....


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## JessC (Aug 9, 2015)

Some people take life too seriously. We all feel that way, but we can always overcome it. Just always think positive. Enjoy life and the pleasure it is giving you.


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## Lewdog (Aug 9, 2015)

The problem with depression is people always want to tell you things will get better, but they can't tell you how or why, and when it doesn't get better things actually just get worse.  If you are talking about someone that has a true bout of depression and not just 'the blues,' problems are going to be a lot more complex than you can imagine.


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## shadowwalker (Aug 9, 2015)

JessC said:


> Some people take life too seriously. We all feel that way, but we can always overcome it. Just always think positive. Enjoy life and the pleasure it is giving you.



Sorry, but not all people suffer from clinical depression. And "thinking positive" is not possible when the illness strikes. Staying in survival mode is about the best one can hope for.


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## Lewdog (Aug 9, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> Sorry, but not all people suffer from clinical depression. And "thinking positive" is not possible when the illness strikes. Staying in survival mode is about the best one can hope for.




That's a good way of putting it.  I know some people that can't understand why sometimes my bills go unpaid, my house has no food, or I'm in bed during the middle of the day.  Crawling into a shell and trying to disassociate myself from the outside world is how I try to go into survival mode, but the problem is the troubles THAT then causes.  It really is something that is hard for people to understand unless they truly suffer from it themselves.


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## aj47 (Aug 9, 2015)

I think we have to recognize that people--as individuals--experience life differently.  To some, death seems welcoming. My friend A. lost her mother to suicide.  A. knew it would happen at some point because nothing lifted the pall over her mother's life. A. bought her mother the book "Final Exit" knowing that it was a risk.  Her mother chose a painless method to end her life and A. believes it was through the book.  A. is not _happy_ about it but she says she is at peace. 

From my own life, I had a parathyroid tumor growing for about two decades--estimated by the surgeon who removed it.  It caused many varied psychiatric symptoms but they were misdiagnosed as psychiatric illness.  I was treated by doctors for years--treatment that didn't work.  I do not remember the number of attempts i made to end my life.  It wasn't until my new primary care doctor wondered about my hypercalcemia (which no one previously had noticed) that I was diagnosed and the benign (I *hate* that word) tumor removed.

From my perspective, I would have been doing my family and community a favor by removing my burdensome existence. There isn't anyone to turn to in that instance because they all go, "But you're not a burden!"  And if we're not on the same page on that, there's nothing to discuss.  I figured they'd notice how bad it was once they didn't have to deal with me anymore.

The stories of those who tried are varied ... there is no magic bullet answer about what could have or should have prevented these attempts. Although some who succeed leave notes, many do not so there is no way to ascertain what the motivating factors were.


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## dither (Aug 10, 2015)

Have often thought about that book Astro, used to be difficult to obtain i think, maybe not now. I must admit that i am curious but if i ever took that route i have my chosen method.


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## Kepharel (Aug 10, 2015)

I found this to be a good explanation for people who want to know what it feels like.  

[video=youtube;XiCrniLQGYc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiCrniLQGYc[/video]


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## Blade (Aug 10, 2015)

Lewdog said:


> That's a good way of putting it.  I know some people that can't understand why sometimes my bills go unpaid, my house has no food, or I'm in bed during the middle of the day.  Crawling into a shell and trying to disassociate myself from the outside world is how I try to go into survival mode, but the problem is the troubles THAT then causes.  It really is something that is hard for people to understand unless they truly suffer from it themselves.



I think people can understand situations where the consequences of some activity or association create more problems than they are worth without being a victim of depression per se. Normally one cuts the problem in order to eliminate the consequences:thumbr:.



astroannie said:


> The stories of those who tried are varied ... there is no magic bullet answer about what could have or should have prevented these attempts. Although some who succeed leave notes, many do not so there is no way to ascertain what the motivating factors were.



I think that generally people who commit suicide do not leave notes and if they do they are not really very informative. This makes sense actually since if one has 'had it' with everything why extend the suffering with a communication attempt?:scratch:


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## aj47 (Aug 10, 2015)

Blade said:


> I think people can understand situations where the consequences of some activity or association create more problems than they are worth without being a victim of depression per se. Normally one cuts the problem in order to eliminate the consequences:thumbr:.



Trouble is, that takes more effort than can be mustered.  If you had the cure for depression and put it on my kitchen table--when I was depressed I wouldn't have been able to muster the energy to go get it.  It's not that I wouldn't want it--it just would be beyond my capacity.  Most people have had situations they couldn't deal with at one time or another. The difference is the depressed person has that issue with everything.


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## Sam (Aug 10, 2015)

JessC said:


> Some people take life too seriously. We all feel that way, but we can always overcome it. Just always think positive. Enjoy life and the pleasure it is giving you.



This is a much too common belief and it really needs to stop. 

Depression is _not _a choice. It's not something you can just will away by thinking positive. Depression is a mental condition that haunts a person for sixteen/seventeen/eighteen hours a day. 

I once did a job for a man who suffered from clinical depression. In an ensuing conversation, he said to me, "Think about the worst day you've ever had in your life, and that's a good day for me". 

"Think positive" is about as effective as putting a plaster on a bullet wound.


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## Boofy (Aug 10, 2015)

It really is an issue that, until you experience it personally or via somebody you have to care for, can be very hard to empathise with. Being told to buck up or think positively doesn't help, but it is very easy to understand why people end up _thinking_ that this is helpful. They can't really do much more than offer words of comfort and encouragement and trying to grasp the difference between depression and sadness without having experienced it is no mean feat. Also, the frustration of watching somebody you care about suffering can present itself in this kind of unhelpful way. I think that is pretty normal, even for people who are perhaps more aware of the differences, to take the sufferers depression out on them at times. It is a really sad fact of life but one that I understand. Carers have a really hard job and doublethink can really creep up on you. 

Depression is debilitating. People just don't realise that you can be rich, loved and successful and yet still suffer with depression. I do a lot of charity work surrounding sufferers and raising awareness but it has always been very much an uphill struggle, educating the public. I find that family members can take the sufferer's condition very personally too. It is important for them to bear in mind that rational sadness and depression are worlds apart. That is what people don't understand.


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## Lewdog (Aug 10, 2015)

Boofy said:


> It really is an issue that, until you experience it personally or via somebody you have to care for, can be very hard to empathise with. Being told to buck up or think positively doesn't help, but it is very easy to understand why people end up _thinking_ that this is helpful. They can't really do much more than offer words of comfort and encouragement and trying to grasp the difference between depression and sadness without having experienced it is no mean feat. Also, the frustration of watching somebody you care about suffering can present itself in this kind of unhelpful way. I think that is pretty normal, even for people who are perhaps more aware of the differences, which is a sad fact of life.
> 
> Depression is debilitating. People just don't realise that you can be rich, loved and successful and yet still suffer with depression. I do a lot of charity work surrounding sufferers and raising awareness but it has always been very much an uphill struggle, educating the public. I find that family members can take the sufferer's condition very personally too. It is important for them to bear in mind that rational sadness and depression are worlds apart. That is what people don't understand.



I'm glad you tackled that comment instead of me.


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## Sam (Aug 10, 2015)

The problem with depression and suicide is twofold: 

Firstly, the number one cause of death in males in the United Kingdom is not car accidents, cancer, workplace death, but suicide. There are preventions in place, guidelines and regulations enforced, for the former three, but there is absolutely -- and I mean _absolutely _-- nothing in place for the latter. There are very few, if any, centres where men can get help. Little to no places where men can sit down to talk to someone about mental-health issues. Both of these exists in greater numbers for women, for the simple reason that we still have this stiff-upper-lip b******t when it comes to young men expressing any kind of problem whatsoever. The whole "man up and grow a set" mentality. Women, on the other hand, are encouraged to share problems and issues from a young age. Men are told, whether subliminally or outrightly, to soldier on and stop being a wuss. 

Secondly, there is a huge stigma surrounding mental health and suicide. No one wants to talk about it. They sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happened. More and more people are taking their lives, but no one is asking why it's happening, what can be done to prevent it, or how it can be treated. What you get, instead, is the whole: "Oh, if s/he could just have seen the positives or held on for another couple of years." Pardon my cynicism, but that is complete and utter tripe. It's like asking someone in intense physical pain to see the positives in the fact that their pain medication will kick in ten minutes down the line. It's not a solution to say, "It gets better if you just hang on." You don't say to someone who has a broken arm, "Hang in there. The pain will go away, and the break will heal, in a few months." 

You treat them.


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## ppsage (Aug 10, 2015)

> Firstly, the number one cause of death in males in the United Kingdom is not car accidents, cancer, workplace death, but suicide.


This can't be right. Maybe in a certain age group?


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## dither (Aug 11, 2015)

Oh dear.

That's all.


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## Gofa (Aug 11, 2015)

Mmmmmm.   Reading hear is interesting and I love this distinction. The world can be divided into those that know and those that dont.
I am a knower here. Teen years, no way i was telling anybody. That would  have only made it that much worst. Plus theres no way someone could have entered my private hell with a bottle of windex and a polishing cloth. 
Its DNA in part too just like the alchohol gene but that is little comfort to a teenager
KJLo you can be my Mom any day. Ive talked to some others over the years redirecting as best I can. My own daughter was afflicted for a while. Scary conversations as a parent but treated as a fact of life this topic loses some of its personal traction 
To me lying here writing while smiling in the middle of the night, life is but a dream. Looking back i did good with my daughter and am happy she spoke enough for me to guess the rest and start talking it through. Looking back i also did good keeping my own mouth. These things manifest differently in individuals because we are individuals. There is no one typology or anything near this.
the more logic you can apply to a discussion of this subject the less you probably have experienced it. Why. Because logic does not live here in any great measure.
To those here that know the various versions of internal misery that can be visited upon us, I raise my hand and wave into the darkness. We are not alone it just feels like it.
On a lighter note. If that bitch Barbie has everything, how come she does not have any of this ?


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## Blade (Aug 11, 2015)

astroannie said:


> Trouble is, that takes more effort than can be mustered.  If you had the cure for depression and put it on my kitchen table--when I was depressed I wouldn't have been able to muster the energy to go get it.  It's not that I wouldn't want it--it just would be beyond my capacity.  Most people have had situations they couldn't deal with at one time or another. The difference is the depressed person has that issue with everything.



I understand what you are saying. My point was, that at least intellectually, there are common points between  normal people and those suffering from depression. The issue is that depressed people can't do it.:blue:

From the _American Foundation for Suicide Prevention _website:



> The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) collects data about mortality in the U.S., including deaths by suicide. In 2013 (the most recent year for which full data are available), 41,149 suicides were reported, making suicide the 10th leading cause of death for Americans *.*In that year, someone in the country died by suicide every 12.8 minutes.



There is quite a bit of basic data on this page: https://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures


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## Lewdog (Aug 11, 2015)

I'll tell you another problem with depression, the medicines.  There are a ton of them:

Cymbalta, Lexapro, Effexor XR, Zoloft, Celexa, trazodone, Prozac, Wellbutrin XL, citalopram, Pristiq, amitriptyline, Savell, aViibryd, Paxil CR, Wellbutrin, Paxil , sertraline, Remeron, nortriptyline, venlafaxine, fluoxetine, bupropion HCl, irtazapine, Ritalin, paroxetine, Wellbutrin SR, doxepin, methylphenidate, escitalopram oxalate, Symbyax, Pamelor, imipramineoral, Brintellix, duloxetine, Fetzima, Nardil,  Emsatransdermal,  Brisdelle, Parnate, Pexeva, clomipramine, Anafranil, Tofranil, fluvoxamine   Zyban, Aplenzin, adesipramine, Sarafem, Prozac Weekly,  Methylin, nefazodone, Tofranil-PM, Norpramin, Remeron SolTab, bupropion HBr, Oleptro ER, desvenlafaxine succinate, Buproban oral,  imipramine pamoate oral,  vilazodone, milnacipran, paroxetine mesylate, Surmontil, maprotiline, protriptyline, Metadate ER, phenelzine, Marplan, olanzapine-fluoxetine,  tranylcypromine, selegiline transdermal, Reviewsamoxapine, Forfivo XL, desvenlafaxine oral, Khedezla, isocarboxazid, levomilnacipran, vortioxetine, desvenlafaxine fumarate,  itIrenka 

http://www.webmd.com/drugs/condition-1022-Depression.aspx

Now out of all those drugs the psychiatrist has to find the exact one that will work for you because everyone is different.  How do they do this?  Simple trial and error.  They pick one and you take it for a couple months and then you see how you feel.  The bad thing is, with some of the drugs if they don't work for you they can actually make your depression even worse.  So depression isn't a simple cure by any means.  I haven't even mentioned electro shock therapy that is given to those with the worst kinds of depression and are showing no signs of improvement.  Carrie Fisher who played in "Star Wars" and the "Blues Brothers" has bi-polar and depression and she gets electro shock therapy like every three months for her condition.

I've taken about 10 different things on that list of drugs and I still haven't really found one that works for me.  The doctor in fact has me on four right now.  So for those that think depression is easy to fix they are totally wrong.


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## Boofy (Aug 11, 2015)

You're so right. There is no quick fix. No "Happy Pill". Psychiatrists are often very conflicting in their practices too. What one thinks will be a sure fire solution, another wouldn't even consider. Ooo, don't even get me started on their standardised appointment questions... In the UK right now, funding for psychiatric clinics has been heavily slashed. It's disconcerting to think that even people who make those big decisions have that disconnect with an illness that presents in so many, and in so many different ways.

 I do hope you find a winning combination eventually, Lew, and that you have support enough to help you get by day to day. The best thing we can all do to combat ignorance surrounding depression is to share our stories in the public domain. It's brave of you to do so ^^;


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## Anari (Aug 11, 2015)

As a teenager I had thoughts of suicide and I came close several times, but was always able to snap myself out of it. I am a senior now. About eight years ago I came closer than I ever have and was having no success snapping myself out of it. It was my dogs that succeeded in turning it around for me. I went to a clinic and it took over 3 years to find the right meds for bi-polar disorder and clinical depression. Those two ailments were the cause of a host of problems for as long as I can remember. All those years ago when I was growing up they hadn't been thought of yet. I was thought of as a rotten kid even though my home life was excellent. Don't give up, Lew. It's worth it in the end even if it takes forever to get there.


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## escorial (Aug 12, 2015)

depression kind of means different things to different people and sufferers often go through a personal journey alone...we all have our coping mechanisms with life's problems and for me the ability to not cope is often the hardest thing to understand..why,why..I just don't want to be like this..i know why I'm depressed and I know I don't want to be depressed...one of the strange things about it all is I know other people can help me get out of it but they refuse to because they don't wish to....the people who are around me when I'm depressed our often the one's I wish would just go away and take there lack of understanding and self interest....away


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## Anari (Aug 12, 2015)

I know what you mean, Escorial. Depression is a personal journey and a hard one. There is never a time when I want people around me. Depressed or not. Even when someone happens to be here and I am depressed it's not something I talk about to anyone. I'm not ashamed of it. Partly I know that if I talk about it I'm putting my business in the street. Something I don't do. The other part is that whoever it is may hang around longer and I certainly don't want that.


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## escorial (Aug 13, 2015)

reading the replies makes me feel like giving out hugs to everyone...some live it and have to face it every day of their life...the cure is for most out of reach but the battle is fought deep inside and it takes it toll..day in day out...stay safe and keep climbing that mountain....respect to you all


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## Sonata (Aug 13, 2015)

Times and things were different, and not so much for the better.  Doctors - GPs - would hand out cigarettes before they wrote out prescriptions after prescriptions of "Mother's Littie" helperi ie Valium.

Oh, and a large glass of Whiskey before bedtime would cure all ills

And psychiactric problems are still not recognised, let alone any treatment for them.

"Just take these pills...blah blah blah"

Snake oil.  - well it if does not kilii your it must have worked.  

If it not, my condolences to your family.


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## escorial (Aug 13, 2015)

sonata there is no cure for most other than another start or to be reborn again if you will..this is the way your wired and the way you react to life...we know of the severe mental issues caused by brain malfunctions and if you have one that's ruff but most of it is all self inflicted...i think the cure is inside most of us it's just getting there one day....


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## Sonata (Aug 13, 2015)

The "funny" thing is that it is apparently "normal"  for me to feel depressed because of my physical limitations, but no way am I clinically depressed.  My GP just does not understand my limitations or pain.  Nor does she understand what four years of looking after an epi did to me, or why I have a new puppy so soon.

My epi girl gave me a desperate reason to get up and so does the baby.

What else would I have to get up for?

And I would not take any of her "magic" pills.  When I go I want to be fully compos mentis.  Not stuffed to the eyebrows with this or that drug.


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## bookmasta (Aug 13, 2015)

Sometimes it feels like everything is coming down at once and you can't always pick up all the pieces. I'd like to say it gets better, but it hasn't for me, not in years. You either adapt and become stronger or you bend until you break. Not to be bleak, but I don't fear death in the slightest. If anything, its an end that may not seem to come otherwise when you just want everything to stop, if only for a little while. For those who do take their lives, I get it. The only reason why I'm still around is because in spite of all that happens, there's still beauty here and dreams to be grasped. Its why I picked up guitar, started dance, write, travel, and stay active. I think a lot of us let ourselves get lost in inertia of daily life that we forget what the purpose of life in itself if you want to be happy, and that's to live and not just exist. I know its just my opinion, but that's what works for me. I need to feel to be alive and if I'm not, then I'm falling and it may be a long time before I finally catch myself again. I also have plans in the future for a PhD and somewhere along the line to try photography, get into cooking, learn French and even try painting. I'm sure I'll find more to add to the list and maybe I'll even be fortunate enough to find someone to experience it all with one day. But relatnships are something else entirely. I guess what I'm saying is so long there's hope, there's also reason to living. I'm not saying it wont suck sometimes, but life will get better eventually.


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## escorial (Aug 13, 2015)

bookmasta said:


> Sometimes it feels like everything is coming down at once and you can't always pick up all the pieces. I'd like to say it gets better, but it hasn't for me, not in years. You either adapt and become stronger or you bend until you break. Not to be bleak, but I don't fear death in the slightest. If anything, its an end that may not seem to come otherwise when you just want everything to stop, if only for a little while. For those who do take their lives, I get it. The only reason why I'm still around is because in spite of all that happens, there's still beauty here and dreams to be grasped. Its why I picked up guitar, started dance, write, travel, and stay active. I think a lot of us let ourselves get lost in inertia of daily life that we forget what the purpose of life in itself if you want to be happy, and that's to live and not just exist. I know its just my opinion, but that's what works for me. I need to feel to be alive and if I'm not, then I'm falling and it may be a long time before I finally catch myself again. I also have plans in the future for a PhD and somewhere along the line to try photography, get into cooking, learn French and even try painting. I'm sure I'll find more to add to the list and maybe I'll even be fortunate enough to find someone to experience it all with one day. But relatnships are something else entirely. I guess what I'm saying is so long there's hope, there's also reason to living. I'm not saying it wont suck sometimes, but life will get better eventually.



one admires your future projects and your ability to see the future as a journey man....


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## shadowwalker (Aug 14, 2015)

I think we're getting away from the clinicial depression/normal depression distinction yet again. I also think we have to understand that just because one is clinically depressed it doesn't mean there is never any joy - it just happens fleetingly. Kinda like drowning - you can come up for air, but you keep going under again. Clinical depression is also not self-inflicted, while "wallowing in misery" is. As to medications, they work wonders for some, even if may take a while; for others, myself included, nothing seemed to work for long. Just like chemo works for some cancer patients, not for others.

I think the most important thing to remember is that clinical depression is an _illness_. There is no innoculation to prevent it, there is no surgery to remove it, there is no cure. Maybe someday, but until then we just to need to quit placing/accepting blame and try to live with it as best we can.


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## escorial (Aug 14, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> I think we're getting away from the clinicial depression/normal depression distinction yet again. I also think we have to understand that just because one is clinically depressed it doesn't mean there is never any joy - it just happens fleetingly. Kinda like drowning - you can come up for air, but you keep going under again. Clinical depression is also not self-inflicted, while "wallowing in misery" is. As to medications, they work wonders for some, even if may take a while; for others, myself included, nothing seemed to work for long. Just like chemo works for some cancer patients, not for others.
> 
> I think the most important thing to remember is that clinical depression is an _illness_. There is no innoculation to prevent it, there is no surgery to remove it, there is no cure. Maybe someday, but until then we just to need to quit placing/accepting blame and try to live with it as best we can.




i think shadowwalker depression has many forms..and varied degrees of intensity...often depression can be caused by things such as loss..most could pinpoint when and why it started and it's this form of depression i think is self inflicted...drugs can help but often most people can have a depressive episode and find away out in time and others are left to cope with it for the rest of their lives.....the flip side is the more severe forms of depression are caused by the brain and drugs are possibly the only way forward.


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## bookmasta (Aug 14, 2015)

escorial said:


> i think shadowwalker depression has many forms..and varied degrees of intensity...often depression can be caused by things such as loss..most could pinpoint when and why it started and it's this form of depression i think is self inflicted...drugs can help but often most people can have a depressive episode and find away out in time and others are left to cope with it for the rest of their lives.....the flip side is the more severe forms of depression are caused by the brain and drugs are possibly the only way forward.



There's two ways I know clinical depression is caused, the first being a hormonal imbalance in the brain that can be hard to find the right combination of drugs for, and the second being caused by cognitive thinking and thought process. The brain is complicated in how people perceive and receive information through life, as well how DNA is structured in each individual person. Either way, its not always temporary. Hormonal changes tend to be a battle throughout life. Depression caused by cognitive thought process and surroundings is made worse by the negative patterns people become caught in throughout daily life. Both have their own challenges and struggles.


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## Lewdog (Aug 14, 2015)

Over the last week to two weeks, I have been developing small shakes.  Now they are full blown.  It makes it hard to type and to carry things.  I almost fell at the grocery store.  The doctor took me off the new medicine and told me if it doesn't get better soon I should check into the hospital.  :/


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## escorial (Aug 14, 2015)

Lew...stay safe dude


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## Blade (Aug 14, 2015)

bookmasta said:


> The brain is complicated in how people perceive and receive information through life, as well how DNA is structured in each individual person.



I think as it stands there is a certain amount of knowledge on how isolated and particular parts of the brain function but virtually nothing on how it works as a whole. Parts of the brain are able to fill in for an injured section but no one seems to know how that can happen or predict what an individual reaction to trauma will exactly be. 'One size fits all' in definitely not an operating principle here.:blue:



Lewdog said:


> Over the last week to two weeks, I have been developing small shakes.  Now they are full blown.  It makes it hard to type and to carry things.  I almost fell at the grocery store.  The doctor took me off the new medicine and told me if it doesn't get better soon I should check into the hospital.  :/



Small shakes or big ones you have to bail out quickly in any case. The fact that the meds take so long to reach full effect would strongly suggest that you retreat if things turn the wrong way. Otherwise you are just giving the agent more opportunity for entrenchment.:blue:


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## Kevin (Aug 14, 2015)

> I think the most important thing to remember is that clinical depression is an _illness_. There is no innoculation to prevent it, there is no surgery to remove it, there is no cure.


 So what you're saying is that 'take that frown and turn it upside down' doesn't work? (shit...) I guess I'll stop saying it.


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## shadowwalker (Aug 14, 2015)

Kevin said:


> So what you're saying is that 'take that frown and turn it upside down' doesn't work? (shit...) I guess I'll stop saying it.



Yeah.

As to depression being _caused _by cognitive thinking - I'd want to see some serious evidence of that. Cognitive thinking and thought processes can be affected by depression, and they can, in turn, make it difficult to cope with depression, but as a cause?


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## escorial (Aug 19, 2015)

many people get depressed after a life event and can often relate to the reasons why it all started..i was okay until...a frequent start to many depressive people I have come across when expressing their pov....


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## PaintYourReality (Sep 12, 2015)

There was just a huge movement in my area where several high school students from various high schools made thousands of little hearts that had encouraging messages such as "You matter", "you impact the world", "you are important here", etc. I thought the movement was really cool. Suicide is huge issue, but there are a lot of movements now to eliminate the 'weakness' stigma associated with seeking help for suicidal thoughts so that teenagers have more options and ways to cope with their situations. Depression is a super hard thing to deal with because the issue is 'invisible' and mental illnesses have so much negativity associated with it that it can be difficult to reach out to anyone for help. Teenagers suffering with depression not only have to deal with living through their teenage years, where other teenagers can be cruel, and drama is prominent, and teenagers are trying to find themselves and the balance between child and adult-- because they are neither-- they also have to deal with the battle inside their own head. They are at war with themselves and the world, and that is a super hard thing to deal with... We need to make sure that people know they have many other options!


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## PaintYourReality (Sep 12, 2015)

It kind of depends. Clinical depression is a result of neurotransmitters in the brain not releasing the proper amount of chemicals-- either too much or too little. However, there are other kinds of depression, such as situational depression, which can be caused by an event or an attitude or a life choice and not necessarily by malfunctioning neurotransmitters. Sadness is not depression, and mourning is not depression, but if the symptoms of depression continue long enough and disrupt the ability to function, then it is depression whether the chemicals in the brain are unbalanced or not. Most therapies will focus on positive ways of thinking to help the patient cope with their depression, and that is highly rated as successful. So it varies from person to person.


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## Bloggsworth (Sep 12, 2015)

The thing that a lot of people don't understand is that it is not a "Mood" thing; it is not being fed up, pissed off, serious boredom; that it is no good telling a clinically depressed person to "Pull your socks up or suck it up, or life is unfair." Depression is a medical condition. Saying "Oh, I'm depressed" does not mean you have depression. One of the surprising things about the condition is the number of extremely successful people affected by it. One reads reports of sports-persons with international reputations committing suicide, successful authors and doctors; it is not a condition which only affects those who you think have every reason to be depressed, the poor, the dispossessed, the infirm; it is fairly randomly distributed, though seemingly weighted towards the more intelligent.


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## MzSnowleopard (Sep 12, 2015)

As someone who's dealt with depression since I was 13, I can relate to Oscar and many others. I grinds my nerves when people say "Suicide is the most selfish thing a person can do." This is BS. Ignoring someone who is crying out for help is the most selfish thing we can do. More times than not, however, that's what people do. 

At my worst moments- I would turn to someone I thought I could only to be hung up on, or had the door slammed in my face. "I don't want your drama!" Was a common comment. or  "Here's a quarter, talk to someone who cares." 

One person told me- and this is verbatim. "you're my friend, you're hurting my friend, and I don't like it when people hurt my friends." click.

These are the ones who can be found in the aftermath saying  that BS line about being selfish. I've come to see it as their way of dealing with their failure in being a friend. Mainly because they know (though they don't want to do it,) when they force themselves to look back- they can see and count the moments when that person tried to reach out and they hung up or slammed the door. 

Other people I reached out to simply said. "You need drugs." or "Go see a shrink and get some meds." 
If a person does take this route and by chance happens to have a bad day people often ask- "have you had your meds today?" Rude much?

It's been my experience that some people say what is "socially acceptable" and have no intentions of being there for the people they consider their friends- unless it benefits themselves. It makes me sick. If a person says "I'm there for you." or "I've got your back." As the adage goes- talk the talk AND walk the walk.

The common threads in all of this is socializing... as in acceptance vs. rejection. We are a discriminating species, it's in our nature. And though we are supposed to be above the beasts with it's 'survival of the fittest' We often exercise this very behavior. Just look at the vicious behavior exhibited online- by people hiding behind their anonymous usernames- lashing out hatred for someone just because off line, they don't like the person but are too chicken to confront them in person. Or they see their 'target' as something beneath them, in some cases, beneath human. And tormenting the target is a game. Both the TV shows Flashpoint and CSI (Vegas) have episodes dedicated to these problems. 

Some people ask why does this happen? 
I ask - why not? You can sweep a problem under the rug for only so long when that rug becomes a mole hill and then a mountain. 

Today, we have a mountain.

The connection is that depression isn't always biological- sometimes it's caused by social rejection, bullying, etc. 

In my case, there was my brother who was the schoolyard bully- and the kids would lash out at me since they were too chicken to stand against him. I was the easier target. 

My depression, however, was a like a monster waking up when my Dad died. I was 12, my sister (who was 13) lashed out with her pain and anger telling me "It's your fault Dad got cancer." 

Although the social and biological components were there- ( my brain has difficulty producing melatonin / serotonin ) - it was the emotional pain from Dad's death and the onslaught of being bullied in school and by my siblings at home- that ultimately triggered my depression.

I'm not crazy but I'm not perfect- I'm flawed like everybody else just in different ways.


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## dither (Sep 13, 2015)

Snowleopard,
i almost gave your comment a like but there's really nothing there TO like is there.

I totally agree with what you say.
How is hurting like hell and wanting to die selfish?
I suspect that sometimes people  turn their backs because they just don't know how to deal the situation. Only those who live ( i don't include " or have lived " here because i don't believe that it ever truly leaves a person ) under the black cloud can have any sort of inclination of what's going with depression.
Eventually, many people just stop asking. Knocking on doors,picking up the phone, reaching out and then, for many, ultimately, there's only one solution..........

Good luck with your's Snowleopard, 
i wish you well.



Bloggsworth said:


> The thing that a lot of people don't understand is that it is not a "Mood" thing; it is not being fed up, pissed off, serious boredom; that it is no good telling a clinically depressed person to "Pull your socks up or suck it up, or life is unfair." Depression is a medical condition. Saying "Oh, I'm depressed" does not mean you have depression. One of the surprising things about the condition is the number of extremely successful people affected by it. One reads reports of sports-persons with international reputations committing suicide, successful authors and doctors; it is not a condition which only affects those who you think have every reason to be depressed, the poor, the dispossessed, the infirm; it is fairly randomly distributed, though seemingly weighted towards the more intelligent.




"Intelligent".
I'm glad you said that Bloggsworth. I found myself thinking that just the other day. It is Intelligence in many cases, i would contest, that heightens, intensifies even, awareness. Awareness of what ever might drag a person down into the black stuff.
I can't believe, maybe i'm wrong, that people can be totally unaffected by what they see and then, maybe it's a hyper-sensitivity thing. What do i know?
Maybe i judge people too harshly. Maybe some people really are made of sterner stuff and able to, what's that saying? "No point in worrying about that which you can't change", shrug things off and move on.
Oh how i wish that i could move on, both in the physical sense and metaphorically but there you.

Life eh?



PaintYourReality said:


> It kind of depends. Clinical depression is a result of neurotransmitters in the brain not releasing the proper amount of chemicals-- either too much or too little. However, there are other kinds of depression, such as situational depression, which can be caused by an event or an attitude or a life choice and not necessarily by malfunctioning neurotransmitters. Sadness is not depression, and mourning is not depression, but if the symptoms of depression continue long enough and disrupt the ability to function, then it is depression whether the chemicals in the brain are unbalanced or not. Most therapies will focus on positive ways of thinking to help the patient cope with their depression, and that is highly rated as successful. So it varies from person to person.



Man how i hate that word.

THERAPY.

i'm sorry but i do.


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## Crowley K. Jarvis (Sep 13, 2015)

It's 5:00 AM here and I don't know why I'm conscious. 

In my case, it was both situational and a lack of serotonin. Something that runs on the male side. My father and uncle had to deal with the same thing. 

Oddly enough, what I was told depression felt like was nothing like I went through.

Mine took the form of anger. Don't we love that word? I didn't feel weighed down or unmotivated, or anything like that. No. I'll phrase it like this: Think about the last time you were truly angry. I don't mean irritated... I mean angry. Furious. Enough to actually hurt someone. Now imagine feeling that way every day. I didn't speak simple responses. I grunted. That was it. 'Take out the trash.'-'Rrrrrrhg.'-etc. I didn't feel like speaking. 

Medication solved the problem. Like snapping your fingers. I couldn't believe the difference. 

As for thought processes, there's enough evidence about coping methods, thank you. In my case, I had developed unhealthy ways of coping. Mental and physical. Thought processes that needed to be overwritten. Even when the problem was simply fixed by a specific medication, I still needed to put forth mental effort to change the way I was thinking, because I had been angry for so long. 

Well worn neural pathways become stronger. The lesser used pathways don't. Our brain is wired that way. 

True, you can't wisk away depression by thinking differently. But you can't make zero effort and expect to improve. That doesn't happen.


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## dither (Sep 13, 2015)

Crowley K. Jarvis said:


> you can't make zero effort and expect to improve. That doesn't happen.



Yeah but...


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## Crowley K. Jarvis (Sep 13, 2015)

dither said:


> Yeah but...



Yeah..... Easier said than done, right? 

Not like I practice what I preach. Hah.


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## dither (Sep 13, 2015)

I wasn't thinking that.


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## escorial (Sep 13, 2015)

maybe people who take their life are in away the living dead already


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## Ephemeral_One (Sep 13, 2015)

There are no answers for such events. Heh, I recall laying there letting the darkness swallow me up. Then waking up in a hospital bed. People will say that I was lucky cause I survived. I can't say that I agree every day, or most days. Yet, here I sit a little over a decade later. The only thing I can offer to everyone is this, don't offer up platitudes or common words. 'Don't do it' sounds good but to the other side will come off as very self serving. After all, who wants to be blamed for another's fate, right? Rather than that, just suppress your urge to encourage and listen. Remember, there are billions of people on the planet yet no two are exactly the same. So, listen, learn and rather than direct, guide. That sounds like the same thing but it makes a world of difference. Directions are just like those pamphlets on depression and suicide. A guide is someone who walks along with you. Don't make it your problem cause self destruction is contagious. Yet, it doesn't hurt to share interests, ideas, dream and fantasies. In other words, just being friendly or, sometimes just being there makes all the difference. Doors are made to open, after all. Even if they're on the mind and heart.


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## escorial (Sep 13, 2015)

Ephemeral_One said:


> There are no answers for such events. Heh, I recall laying there letting the darkness swallow me up. Then waking up in a hospital bed. People will say that I was lucky cause I survived. I can't say that I agree every day, or most days. Yet, here I sit a little over a decade later. The only thing I can offer to everyone is this, don't offer up platitudes or common words. 'Don't do it' sounds good but to the other side will come off as very self serving. After all, who wants to be blamed for another's fate, right? Rather than that, just suppress your urge to encourage and listen. Remember, there are billions of people on the planet yet no two are exactly the same. So, listen, learn and rather than direct, guide. That sounds like the same thing but it makes a world of difference. Directions are just like those pamphlets on depression and suicide. A guide is someone who walks along with you. Don't make it your problem cause self destruction is contagious. Yet, it doesn't hurt to share interests, ideas, dream and fantasies. In other words, just being friendly or, sometimes just being there makes all the difference. Doors are made to open, after all. Even if they're on the mind and heart.



words can be powerful...experiences can give you insight..put the two together and you end up with words like this...


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## dither (Sep 13, 2015)

Just BE there, not in the physical sense. Be available and don't have an opinion.
That's all a person can do i think.


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## escorial (Sep 13, 2015)

dither said:


> Just BE there, not in the physical sense. Be available and don't have an opinion.
> That's all a person can do i think.




that's a nice way man


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## patskywriter (Sep 13, 2015)

escorial said:


> maybe people who take their life are in a way the living dead already



I don't know about that. … A kid at the local university hanged himself the other day. Everybody's totally baffled: He certainly looked like a "winner"—handsome, high school football star, a member of a couple of social groups that served the community, had a girl friend, etc, etc. And yet no one saw it coming. Sure, he was a freshman and possibly away from home (just a couple hundred miles away, if that) for the first time—but could that have driven him to despair? He was acting “normal” that day and was dead that night. Everybody is totally confused. I am completely at odds with what could go wrong so quickly … I'm thinking that with some people, you'll never know.


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## dither (Sep 13, 2015)

patskywriter said:


> I don't know about that. … A kid at the local university hanged himself the other day. Everybody's totally baffled: He certainly looked like a "winner"—handsome, high school football star, a member of a couple of social groups that served the community, had a girl friend, etc, etc. And yet no one saw it coming. Sure, he was a freshman and possibly away from home (just a couple hundred miles away, if that) for the first time—but could that have driven him to despair? He was acting “normal” that day and was dead that night. Everybody is totally confused. I am completely at odds with what could go wrong so quickly … I'm thinking that with some people, you'll never know.



Maybe there's a suicide gene.
I truly believe that suicide, for many, is a spur of the moment thing.
We see stories of people who were on anti-depressants committing suicide.
Maybe deep down they don't want to live, for whatever reason, but are scared of dying.
Then a drug gives them the courage to do it or rather, nullifies their fear.
Just a thought.


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## escorial (Sep 13, 2015)

patskywriter said:


> I don't know about that. … A kid at the local university hanged himself the other day. Everybody's totally baffled: He certainly looked like a "winner"—handsome, high school football star, a member of a couple of social groups that served the community, had a girl friend, etc, etc. And yet no one saw it coming. Sure, he was a freshman and possibly away from home (just a couple hundred miles away, if that) for the first time—but could that have driven him to despair? He was acting “normal” that day and was dead that night. Everybody is totally confused. I am completely at odds with what could go wrong so quickly … I'm thinking that with some people, you'll never know.



what i was kind of getting at was that for whatever reason maybe inside they have died and that is how they get the courage to do it...


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## dither (Sep 13, 2015)

escorial said:


> what i was kind of getting at was that for whatever reason maybe inside they have died and that is how they get the courage to do it...



Not sure if courage is the right word.
Motivation?


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## escorial (Sep 13, 2015)

dither said:


> Not sure if courage is the right word.
> Motivation?




the distinction is clear but for me at least...it takes guts to end it...


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## dither (Sep 13, 2015)

I totally agree Escorial,
But;

Tired of living versus fear of dying e'er the twain shall meet.

I've said this before,
i think that sometimes a person wakes up in the morning and just thinks "i can't do this any more". It's that simple. Maybe.


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## escorial (Sep 13, 2015)

_i reckon they must to..but to get to that point there was so much contemplation..direct and indirect on their part..._


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## dither (Sep 13, 2015)

Escorial,
consider this,

a person really doesn't give a damn about life. Their life, and their place in this world.
And so, they're just going through the motions.
Eating,sleeping, paying the bills and that's all.
Absolutely nothing else, with no thoughts of taking their life.
Then one day, purely by chance, they find themselves standing by a railway track. On top of a tall building. Whatever.
No time for thought.
Something within says/urges them, DO IT. NOW!
Their face goes numb.
No fear.
No feelings.
Whoosh!
The deed is done.


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## escorial (Sep 13, 2015)

that person had to experience life before they decided they never give a damn...i would offer this view...how old or how young they only consider such a thing when they experience emotional turmoil...how many young babies..3,4 year olds..ect commit such a thing


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## dither (Sep 13, 2015)

escorial said:


> how many young babies..3,4 year olds..ect commit such a thing




What?


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## escorial (Sep 13, 2015)

what i was getting at is... suicide is only committed by people who try to grasp the meaning of life at some point


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## patskywriter (Sep 13, 2015)

dither said:


> Escorial,
> consider this,
> 
> a person really doesn't give a damn about life. Their life, and their place in this world.
> ...



I can sorta see this when thinking of people living far outside the "winners' circle." But it's baffling when it seems that the person in question is having a great time and enjoying life (like his friends thought he was doing).


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## dither (Sep 13, 2015)

Oh Patsky.

And on that note,
i shall bid you goodnight.


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## escorial (Sep 13, 2015)

patskywriter said:


> I can sorta see this when thinking of people living far outside the "winners' circle." But it's baffling when it seems that the person in question is having a great time and enjoying life (like his friends thought he was doing).



i don't think anyone can know exactly what someone else is thinking..by their actions and reactions


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