# Your darkest moment



## Brock (Oct 5, 2013)

I'm back, kind of.  I'm still going through a divorce so crazy that a person seriously couldn't write this stuff -- no joke.  I've been in a deep depression for four months with not much ambition to do much of anything.  My wife, mother of our three daughters, and best friend of 11 years, decided to have an affair with the plumber (yes, the plumber) less than half a year after adopting my oldest daughter and buying a new home with me.  The 44-year-old plumber is going through his third divorce (cheated on all of his wives and has wrecked his share of other people's marriages) because he prefers my 29-year-old wife to his mid-forty-something wife.  The turmoil has been unbelievable with so many crazy twists and turns that, like I said, you can't write this stuff.  The latest occurrence:  they broke in to my house two nights ago while I was at work, and that's tame compared to all the other stuff.

My wife is a completely different person now.  She used to have such a big heart and would do anything for anybody.  She was the type of person that would move mountains to keep me from hurting, but now she treats me like her worst enemy and is extremely hateful towards her parents and family.  I've never seen someone so good turn so evil.  It's like she is brainwashed.  It feels like my wife died, but worse.

Anyway, besides the times that I have had my children, I've been alone in this house for four months.  The pain and emptiness is overwhelming and doesn't feel as if it will ever get better.  I have dreams every night of things being how they used to be, then I wake up and my family isn't here and it hits me like a ton of bricks.

This is by far the darkest moment of my life.  Please feel free to share yours.


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## Blade (Oct 5, 2013)

Brock said:


> My wife is a completely different person now.  She used to have such a big heart and would do anything for anybody.  She was the type of person that would move mountains to keep me from hurting, but now she treats me like her worst enemy and is extremely hateful towards her parents and family.  I've never seen someone so good turn so evil.  It's like she is brainwashed.  It feels like my wife died, but worse.
> 
> Anyway, besides the times that I have had my children, I've been alone in this house for four months.  The pain and emptiness is overwhelming and doesn't feel as if it will ever get better.  I have dreams every night of things being how they used to be, then I wake up and my family isn't here and it hits me like a ton of bricks.
> 
> This is by far the darkest moment of my life.  Please feel free to share yours.



Things will get better, the cream will eventually rise to the top. Long term this is going to work out much more badly for her than it will for you as it looks like she is destroying good human links in her life for a piece of low life and accompanying delusions. You had better believe that the 'good wife' is gone and on the hunt for you if you ever expect to get out of your present situation.

My low point in life was along the same lines though I eventually managed to right the ship and rarely give those years even a passing thought. 'Used to be' is an enemy now really because you are going to have to dig in the reality of now and make some moves forward.

You have caught me late at night here actually but just let me say that what you are going through is not the end of the world and you should be able to prevail. I will write nup a report on my similar 'dark moment' though it is reatively bland and lacking in solid dramatic qualities.

Good luck.


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## shadowwalker (Oct 5, 2013)

My darkest moment was the night my father died. He was, if a parent can be, my soulmate. My best friend, my always there supporter, the epitome of unconditional love. It was his death and the aftermath that pushed the final button into deep, suicidal, clinical depression that lasted years and still comes back to haunt me.


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## Trilby (Oct 5, 2013)

Hi Brock, pleased to see you back.

I know things may seem impossible at the moment, but things will get better.

My darkest moment was 10:40am 18 June 1995 (Fathers' Day) the day my husband of 29yrs died. He wasn't only my husband, he was my best friend and soul-mate. We had four children, the youngest was only thirteen years old at the time. I had to be strong for my children's sake, especially the 13 year old. I now had to be both mother and father, and the sole bread winner. I neither had the time to grieve nor the luxury to wallow in self pity. Yes I cried, but I cried in private. I took on a full time job and wearing dark glasses, each day for sometime I cried all the way to work. Outside of my place of work I'd straighten up pull myself together, take a deep breath and step inside and cope (I had to cope, I had no choice) a couple of times it did get to me and I broke down, but with the understanding management and a couple of minutes to myself I managed to get it together and go back to my job. All the way home from work hidden behind my dark glasses I cried in silence, and yet again outside of my home I pulled myself together, I couldn't upset my children, they had just lost their father, they were upset enough without me adding to it.

Brock, we are stronger than we think we are. Set your mind to it and be determined not to let it get you down. Be determined to start again. Put it down to experience and move on. There is a great big beautiful world out there, get yourself out there and find it. I know things may seem pointless at the moment, but believe me things will change. They do say that the one thing we can be sure of is change. 
Really Brock, it is up to you and your frame of mind, if your mind is not in the the right place, then it is up to you to get it into the 'right place', it can be done! The fact that you have showed back up here on the forums shows, I think, that you're starting to improve. Good luck!


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## Gavrushka (Oct 5, 2013)

There have been a few events so dark that I'd felt there could be nothing beyond them. Yes, likewise, the loss of my father was by far the bleakest time for me, and I can empathise with shadowwalker. - As I grew up, he'd been a dreadful violent bully, but had transformed into someone very different not long before he died. - I was 200 miles away when I was given the news that he was dying, and he waited until I arrived at the hospital before he left. I think he knew how important it was for me to say farewell... Damn, it's hard to talk about.

There's an F1 Grand Prix this weekend, and we always watched it together... I smile at the memories now, but the grief of him leaving has eased little in the decade since he went.


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## The Tourist (Oct 5, 2013)

Brock, having lost a woman I loved (to a disco king which is worse than a plumber--at least a plumber has a job) I can attest that infidelity is a self-inflicted wound.  You and I are the real villains.

Somewhere along the line we stopped being the men our woman loved and admired.  In most cases we just stopped paying attention.  While heartbroken, I didn't do enough to win my love back, I just moved on.  But when I began paying attention to someone else, I found a five-page, double-sided, scrawled manifesto from this former lover jammed in my front door.

Sicilians call this behavior _"old toy horse, new toy horse,"_ and I thought it was a myth.

You like this woman, fight for her.  First thing, get a new plumber.  Convey your sincerest wishes that your current tradesman has a long, happy life in a new county under new identity.

Next, do what I didn't.  Call it wooing, rekindling, being romantic, or just plain attentive.  But if you love this woman, make that clear to everyone, especially her.  Be an idiot if that's what it takes.  But find the key, no matter how trivial that gesture might be.

Last year I called "The Red Queen" after 30 years.  I apologized and we spoke for about twenty minutes.  Same lilt in her laugh, same ability to chill me to the bone.  Called me "dear."  I'll never leave my wife, but that immature biker I once was whispered in my ear, "What if?"

Don't live a life of regrets.  If you're going to lose, do it on your feet.  Get her back.


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## FleshEater (Oct 5, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> You and I are the real villains.



Whoa! Hold the phone. EVERY situation is completely different. Yes, I too almost lost my wife because of neglecting her needs, however not every man is a villain. Brock's wife could have had a medical condition, could have just decided to become this other person, anything. Slapping a blanket comment like that on the screen without hearing the whole story isn't exactly the wisest thing to do.


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## The Tourist (Oct 5, 2013)

No, I stand on the premise.  If you are truly a loving couple then it's your job to take care of the thing your supposedly love the best.

What would you think of a guy who dumped his wife because she was simply ill or got fat?  So how is that different from the relationship being "ill"?

Yes, there are times when your relationship goes 60/40.  But when your wife takes a lover it's because you are 100% wrong.  And sadly, clueless.


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## Myers (Oct 5, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> I can attest that infidelity is a self-inflicted wound.  You and I are the real villains.



I agree with Flesheater. Did you ever consider that it might not be a good idea to apply your experience to everyone else on the planet?


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## Brock (Oct 5, 2013)

I and my wife's own parents think she is bipolar.  She has always had extreme highs and lows and has always made very rash decisions that have cost her and us in the end.  Was I a perfect husband?  No.  Was she a perfect wife?  No.  Were we perfect parents?  No.  But we were madly in love.  Something snapped inside of her.  I can't explain it, but she's now an alcoholic and a completely different person.  She once had such a huge heart, and now it seems like there is a demon inside of her.  Like I said, we had just bought a new home and she had just adopted my oldest daughter.  We had just gotten back from an amazing vacation and we were planning our future together when all of this happened.  She has a very impressionable and weak personality, and somehow, this guy got to her, just as he has many others.  I'm not saying that if I could turn back time that I couldn't have done some things different, but I'm not exagerating when I and so many others say it feels like she's been lost to a cult.  She has become a completely different person in such a short time.  It's like she's brainwashed.


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## Myers (Oct 5, 2013)

Brock, I'm sorry to hear about your situation. Things are good now, but my wife and I got married young and in a hurry, and the first couple of years were touch and go. I really didn't think we were going to make it. Thanks to counseling and just growing up, things are good now. I have an inkling based on my experience, but can't imagine what it must be like for you. We didn't have kids or the investment of so many years. The best of luck to you, and I hope you find contentment and peace.


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## Brock (Oct 5, 2013)

Thank you, Myers.  But 'Tourist', what it boils down to is that there is NO excuse for a spouse to cheat.  If there are problems, you communicate and put in the hard work to fix your marriage, and if it doesn't work then you go your separate ways.  It is not my, your, or anyone else's fault that they've been cheated on.  Call me old fashioned, I guess.  Infidelity is possibly a preventable wound, but not a self-inflicted one.


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## escorial (Oct 5, 2013)

life's simple it's just other people make it complicated...your journey is unique to you alone...stay safe lad.


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## The Tourist (Oct 5, 2013)

Brock said:


> Thank you, Myers.  But 'Tourist', what it boils down to is that there is NO excuse for a spouse to cheat.



Then men have to agree that they have no excuse, either.  

I've been around businessmen whose fidelity is inversely proportionate to how far away from home they travel.  The higher the miles the lower their morality.

But let's get real here.  A happy marriage doesn't fall out of the sky like a winning lottery ticket.  You take care of a marriage like you would a vintage 'Vette.  If you're smart--and clearly 50% of the married folks are not--you're always looking for ways to improve, make yourself better and be a true mate.

Something happened in your marriage, but I'll bet a bushelbasket full of new chrome you're more culpable than you admit.

Paul Newman once stated that he never went out for hamburger because he had steak at home.  Obviously your wife found "take out" better than left-overs.


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## FleshEater (Oct 5, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> No, I stand on the premise.  If you are truly a loving couple then it's your job to take care of the thing your supposedly love the best.
> 
> What would you think of a guy who dumped his wife because she was simply ill or got fat?  So how is that different from the relationship being "ill"?
> 
> Yes, there are times when your relationship goes 60/40.  But when your wife takes a lover it's because you are 100% wrong.  And sadly, clueless.



No matter what, it takes two people to destroy a relationship. Placing the blame on yourself, or every man that has a woman cheat on him, is absolute nonsense. This isn't a black and white situation. 


Brock: My deepest sympathies go out to you and your family. I work with a gentleman that was diagnosed as bi-polar, and another gentleman whose wife is as well. From what he's told me, as soon as she had her hysterectomy she went off the deep end, snapping into someone he'd never seen before. To this day she is still the same way, and only in her mid thirties.


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## FleshEater (Oct 5, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Then men have to agree that they have no excuse, either.
> 
> I've been around businessmen whose fidelity is inversely proportionate to how far away from home they travel.  The higher the miles the lower their morality.
> 
> ...



My wife fell for another man away on a business trip. Was it my fault? Yes. I wasn't making her feel like she needed to feel. And why wasn't I doing that? Because she wasn't making me feel like I needed to feel either. We both agreed afterward that we BOTH were wrong. However, when she was on business, she only blamed me, and mainly because the douche was filling her head full of lies, presenting her with a make believe life in California. It wasn't just my fault.


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## Brock (Oct 5, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Then men have to agree that they have no excuse, either.
> 
> I've been around businessmen whose fidelity is inversely proportionate to how far away from home they travel.  The higher the miles the lower their morality.
> 
> ...




Actually, the main reason she went off the deep end is because she wanted a different lifestyle.  She said she wished she never had children.  And now, as I'm left home with the children, she is traveling, camping, boating, four-wheeling, drinking, partying and so on.  I am now the custodial parent of our children and will most likely end up with full custody.  As I said, we were madly in love when this happened.  You know when someone is madly in love with you.  She even told me that she's not in love with the man she's with.  She snapped -- suddenly.


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## The Tourist (Oct 5, 2013)

Amazing that all of this happened "suddenly."

Now the big question, what are you going to do about it?


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## dakota.potts (Oct 5, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Amazing that all of this happened "suddenly."
> 
> Now the big question, what are you going to do about it?



Probably live his life by his own merits and not that of a person he met on the internet giving blanket advice. 

Brock, I suggest a paradigm change. This isn't YOUR darkest moment. It may be hers, it may be your family's, but your darkest moment would be responding in kind. You are being the better person and hanging on to what you have despite it. I won't say the situation doesn't suck, but rephrasing it in different terms might help.


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## Jeko (Oct 5, 2013)

I haven't lived long enough to compare the darkness of moments of my life, so I don't have anything to offer.

But Brock, my heart goes out to you, and, whether it means anything or not, my prayers.


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## shadowwalker (Oct 5, 2013)

Brock, can only repeat that your wife's decisions/actions are not automatically your fault. Nobody can make or cause someone else to do things unless they're holding the proverbial gun to their head. People can do all the 'right things' and still get crapped on. Not going to comment on anything more because I don't know and have no right to know the details, but don't accept blanket judgements from people who also don't know.


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## Myers (Oct 5, 2013)

Exactly. 

If there are problems in a marriage, often, but not always, both the husband and wife play a part. But if someone chooses to have an affair - probably the most destructive thing you can do to a marriage - instead of taking some other course of action, it’s not the other persons fault. Any reason or justification for the affair is just an excuse.

But it’s impossible to assign blame without knowing the details or hearing the other side of it. Not that it will stop some people from doing it anyway.


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## popsprocket (Oct 5, 2013)

Okay, we can stop trying to assign blame now. It's just rubbing salt in a fresh wound.

You have my sympathies, Brock, it sucks that you have to go through something like that. 

Though, I fall in the Cadence boat of being too young to have comparable dark moments, so I'll have to pass on sharing my own.


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## Brock (Oct 5, 2013)

For what it's worth, I fought for her harder than I've ever fought for anything in my life.  For four months I fought like hell.  I sent a dozen flowers to her work, 11 real and one fake.  The card read I'll love you 'til the last one dies.  The other man took them and through them in the dumpster at his house and sent me a picture of them.  She then called me crying.  I went to his house after work in the middle of the night, crawled in his dumpster and retrieved the fake rose.  I put it on her doorstep.  She called me and cried again.  There was a time shortly after this that she was going to come back home and we were going to do marriage counseling.  We made it to one session before he sucked her back in.  She tried to end it with him three times, but every time he managed to pull her back.  I fought in so many ways, because I do feel like I could have prevented this.  Any man would feel this way.   I'm down to my high school weight of 180 lbs and smoke two packs a day after quitting for two years.  It is over now.  Our first divorce date is in 13 days and we are no longer speaking.  I'm a mess, but I need to find a way to pull myself out of this depression for my children.


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## Pluralized (Oct 5, 2013)

Ah, low spots. Had a few. First, Brock - I offer you my warm thoughts as well, since I know first-hand what it's like having people turn strange on you. Thankfully not my wife, but close.


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## Trilby (Oct 6, 2013)

Brock said:


> I'm a mess, but I need to find a way to pull myself out of this depression for my children.



Exactly. Your thinking is on the right track. You're lucky to have your children with you and not be going through the 'tug of love' thing.

What has happened has happened, you need to put the past in the past and move forward. Easy to say, I know - it won't be easy, but it is possible and as the saying goes 'time is a great healer'. 

You can do this. You can come through this and you will.


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## alanmt (Oct 6, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> But when your wife takes a lover it's because you are 100% wrong.  And sadly, clueless.



I completely disagree.  Women are not creatures deprived of moral agency or responsibility.  And, with all due respect, if Brock were to follow your advice it would be more likely to lead to a restraining order than a reconciliation.

I also slightly and respectfully disagree with Brock's statement that there is never an excuse to cheat.  There is _almost never _a sufficient excuse to cheat.  But sometimes, there are very limited circumstances under which seeking satisfaction of one's sexual needs elsewhere is morally acceptable - where a spouse refuses to meet your sexual needs but circumstances  are such that a divorce will result in significant harm to dependents or others, or where tragedy results in a spouse through illness physical condition being absolutely unable to meet those needs.

Since you asked about moments, my worst was one where I found myself helpless and realized I was about to be killed.  Definitely the worst 30 seconds of my life.

But yes, Brock, I too have been through a similar situation as you.  It feels like your world is ending, your hopes and dreams for the future shattered, the foundation of your life and happiness - your family - destroyed. The depth of these feelings are temporary. It does get better.  And your relationship with your children will be of real comfort and assistance.


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## Pandora (Oct 6, 2013)

Brock, the mother of your children is sick, she has a disease. I know bipolar well, too well. 
All those who love her and please don't stop, can see how this is going to end for her.
 She can not see, she is only feeling, emotional overload.

Your wife is young, 29, just entering her 3rd decade of life. She has many choices to come. 
These she makes for herself but for her girls too. She has an all important role.
 For them she must get treatment or she will be so sorry, more sorry than she knows. 
Another decade to come without help you all could be living a suicide. 

Please do whatever it takes to rally family love and help her. Her mind is not her own and alcohol exacerbates
this illness. This path is disaster for she and your girls. Your little family that you must try to protect. 

My heart aches for you but I know success is possible. I hope and pray you get your girl well.


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## The Tourist (Oct 6, 2013)

Pandora said:


> Brock, the mother of your children is sick, she has a disease. I know bipolar well, too well.



It is possible.  My mom went through a severe bout of depression and alcoholism after the loss of a baby in childbirth.  My dad had her in and out of hospitals until I went to high school.

But after a few exchanges with the OP I'm not sure what he wants or what he's prepared to do.  He doesn't seem too eager to win her back, and if anything, it's getting stuck with housework that's the bigger deal than the dissolution of his family.

If the wife is ill, then by all means get her to a doctor, or get the plumber to take her in.  From here it looks like that guy is the only one who knows what he's doing.


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## Brock (Oct 6, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> It is possible.  My mom went through a severe bout of depression and alcoholism after the loss of a baby in childbirth.  My dad had her in and out of hospitals until I went to high school.
> 
> But after a few exchanges with the OP I'm not sure what he wants or what he's prepared to do.  He doesn't seem too eager to win her back, and if anything, it's getting stuck with housework that's the bigger deal than the dissolution of his family.
> 
> If the wife is ill, then by all means get her to a doctor, or get the plumber to take her in.  From here it looks like that guy is the only one who knows what he's doing.




The plumber has convinced her to stop communicating with every one that loves her.  He called her mother some unspeakable names over the phone.  She now says her parents are dead to her and will not attend their funerals.  Family, friends, people from our church and I have all tried getting through to her.  And what I haven't mentioned is the plumber's wife.  She is an absolute mess. He has pushed everyone away from her and through telling lies has everyone believing she is crazy.  She is going through this completely alone.  He did this to his last wife as well when he began cheating on her.

I know my wife is going to fall.  Even after all the pain she has caused me, no part of me wants to see this happen.  I know she's still in there somewhere.


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## Pluralized (Oct 6, 2013)

What is it about this plumber that attracted her in the first place?


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## Pandora (Oct 6, 2013)

Brock said:


> The plumber has convinced her to stop communicating with every one that loves her.  He called her mother some unspeakable names over the phone.  She now says her parents are dead to her and will not attend their funerals.  Family, friends, people from our church and I have all tried getting through to her.  And what I haven't mentioned is the plumber's wife.  She is an absolute mess. He has pushed everyone away from her and through telling lies has everyone believing she is crazy.  She is going through this completely alone.  He did this to his last wife as well when he began cheating on her.
> 
> I know my wife is going to fall.  Even after all the pain she has caused me, no part of me wants to see this happen.  I know she's still in there somewhere.


Your signature Brock . . . don't let this happen to the innocents, your daughters. There must be forgiveness from everyone.
 Do we blame a sick person for being sick?
Your instincts are to fight for her. She is in there you know she is.  The damage to your girls will be beyond 
measure if she takes her own life. 
 Perhaps local laws can allow a mental illness intervention because your wife is in danger. 
She is her worst enemy now and is not taking any steps to learn this about herself. 
The outcome is disastrous with this man, he's got to go, he is a control freak who latched onto another victim. 
If she stays with him she will lose a decade of good choices and gain so many regrets. Life changing regrets
for herself and all those who love her.


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## Pandora (Oct 6, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> It is possible.  My mom went through a severe bout of depression and alcoholism after the loss of a baby in childbirth.  My dad had her in and out of hospitals until I went to high school.
> 
> But after a few exchanges with the OP I'm not sure what he wants or what he's prepared to do.  He doesn't seem too eager to win her back, and if anything, it's getting stuck with housework that's the bigger deal than the dissolution of his family.
> 
> If the wife is ill, then by all means get her to a doctor, or get the plumber to take her in.  From here it looks like that guy is the only one who knows what he's doing.


I'm sorry about your Mom, for your Father and family. I hope the outcome was good for all.

The OP is hurt, betrayed. So many marriages fail because we change. The evolution of us takes the union apart. 
He is reacting to the woman she has become. Can't blame that. Will he ever be able to trust her again? 
So much, too much to take.

When illness is involved though we must put aside all that and forgive. We don't have to forget.
 Get the help she needs because she is the Mother. She may never be the Wife again, that can be figured out later. 
The role of Mother is vital to child but even more so to Mother.
She turns her back on her girls now she is facing torment later in life and beyond. This relationship defines people,
just like Brock's signature.


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## Trilby (Oct 6, 2013)

Hi there again Brock,

Your wife may be ill, but imo, your first and foremost concern should be your children and taking care to protect your own health and welfare, for if you go under, then you will be no use to anyone, yourself included.

Your wife is of age. She is old enough to make her own decisions. Whether she is of sound mind to make decisions, I know not. But she has made a decision and all you can do is, go along with it - you do not have the authority to intervene. She has parents to look out for her - you have enough to do looking after your children and keeping yourself on the right track.

If in time, as it looks likely, the stuff hits the fan and she needs you to pick up the pieces, then that will be up to you, when and if that time comes.

Try to take a step back, disassociate and see if you can see the situation from the outside looking in, as to the inside looking out.

My heart goes out to you at this time - good luck and God bless!


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## shadowwalker (Oct 6, 2013)

Having gone through a few breakups, and dealt with mental illnesses, the only solid advice I can offer is to concentrate on your children (being a single parent offers tremendous opportunities for joy) and leave the door open for your wife (just don't stand in it calling her). Allow yourself to grieve, and don't think you need to grieve and "get over it" (there will be moments down the road when it hits you like a brick wall), but also allow yourself to be "selfish" and enjoy your new life and your kids. It sounds trite, but every ending really does offer new opportunities. Sometimes we just have to wrestle them to the ground first.


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## Brock (Oct 6, 2013)

Pluralized said:


> What is it about this plumber that attracted her in the first place?



He can offer her a lifestyle that I can't.  They can pick up and go wherever whenever they want.  He has a lot of land that he's promising her she can have horses on.  He has toys, owns his own business, is promising her that he'll get the house in his divorce, and is an extremely smooth talker who tells her everything she wants to hear.  People from the community have come to her trying to tell her how he is and what he's done in the past (same thing he's doing now) but he talks his way out of all of it and convinces her of what he's trying to sell her.

Her own parents and family are now saying to let her fall.  It's not even that I'm that focused on my marriage anymore.  I'm more focused on what the mother of my children and best friend of 11 years is going to go through when she does fall -- when she realizes that she's made an incredibly wrong decision that has defined who she is as a person for the rest of her life.  She threw her marriage and family away in order to take another woman's husband -- a woman that was her friend.  And she's done this right in front of our children.  My oldest two know what their mother has done.


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## philistine (Oct 6, 2013)

My last girlfriend, which was about three years ago now, turned out to be an enormous pathological liar, having woven an intricate fabric of lies and deception. It affected me, several of my friends, and my family. My best friend and I (who was a best friend of this woman, too), who, from systematic analysis of our shared history, were still uncovering lies several months after her disappearance from our lives. 

Just imagine having built a life with a person for several years, only for it to fall apart, then realise that everything you knew about that person- about their family, their past experiences, their thoughts, their values et al- was a complete lie; a fabrication designed with the express purpose of satisfying an insatiable desire to mess with people, and to be disengenuous. 

It took me years to get over that.


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## FleshEater (Oct 7, 2013)

Brock said:


> He can offer her a lifestyle that I can't.  They can pick up and go wherever whenever they want.  He has a lot of land that he's promising her she can have horses on.  He has toys, owns his own business, is promising her that he'll get the house in his divorce, and is an extremely smooth talker who tells her everything she wants to hear.  People from the community have come to her trying to tell her how he is and what he's done in the past (same thing he's doing now) but he talks his way out of all of it and convinces her of what he's trying to sell her.
> 
> Her own parents and family are now saying to let her fall.  It's not even that I'm that focused on my marriage anymore.  I'm more focused on what the mother of my children and best friend of 11 years is going to go through when she does fall -- when she realizes that she's made an incredibly wrong decision that has defined who she is as a person for the rest of her life.  She threw her marriage and family away in order to take another woman's husband -- a woman that was her friend.  And she's done this right in front of our children.  My oldest two know what their mother has done.



This guy reminds of the guy my wife fell for (in just three weeks...yes, everything can suddenly change). Smooth talker. Seeing as how your actually near this guy, I don't know how you haven't bloodied him up. I was hoping "Mr. Right" would buy a plane ticket and show up at my front door to take my wife back to California with him, just so I could bury my knuckles in his face. 

You sir are a good and strong man. 

Like everyone said, this will all pass. There's nothing you can do now but focus on your children, because they're going through this too.


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## philistine (Oct 7, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> I was hoping "Mr. Right" would buy a plane ticket and show up at my front door to take my wife back to California with him, just so I could bury my knuckles in his face.



I can't help but say that I've never understood this kind of retaliation; that is, striking back at the guy. The fact is, when one's partner decides she doesn't like her current situation anymore and decides to throw it all away by being unfaithful, often wreaking dire consequences-especially in the case of the OP- the injured male in the equation is hell bent on smashing the guy's face in. I don't get it.

Ultimately, it's the woman who decided to make things the way they were, or are. Without her consent for the situation to escalate, it wouldn't have happened. If anything, it'd make good sense to show the guy your thanks, as such a thing would have inevitably happened anyway, albeit with a different enabler.


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## alanmt (Oct 7, 2013)

Precisely, philistine.  The other person with whom your wife has an affair doesn't owe you specific duty, although they are violating a general societal duty of decency.  Your spouse, on the other hand, specifically does owe you a duty of fidelity and a duty to attempt to work out any problems before calling it quits on the marriage.  She is the bad person


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## Brock (Oct 7, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> This guy reminds of the guy my wife fell for (in just three weeks...yes, everything can suddenly change). Smooth talker. Seeing as how your actually near this guy, I don't know how you haven't bloodied him up. I was hoping "Mr. Right" would buy a plane ticket and show up at my front door to take my wife back to California with him, just so I could bury my knuckles in his face.
> 
> You sir are a good and strong man.
> 
> Like everyone said, this will all pass. There's nothing you can do now but focus on your children, because they're going through this too.



He wants me to lose my temper.  This guy is all too familiar with CPO's.  A few months back he baited me in to making a threat.  His wife and I have been talking through this whole thing.  He took her phone and locked himself in a room, then began texting me acting like her.  He said something that he knew would set me off and I replied with "tell him if I ever catch him around my children, he's going to be dealing with an fng psychopath."  He called the police the next morning then convinced my wife to say that I was threatening her as well.  I never threatened my wife one time throughout this entire thing.  I was kept from seeing my children for 18 days.  He successfully removed me from the situation so that he could have his way.


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## Myers (Oct 7, 2013)

Could be wrong, but I was thinking that was more wishful thinking on Flesheater's part. I think people sometimes would like to punch someone out or imagine doing it, but when presented with the opportunity, a cooler head prevails; unless they have a track record for violence. I know I've thought about wailing on someone for a lesser offenses, but I've never done it.


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## Blade (Oct 7, 2013)

Brock said:


> Her own parents and family are now saying to let her fall.



As if they have a choice. They have no authority and no information as to what is going on. Why hang on? They are probably just as anxious to get rid of the 'new couple' as anyone else.:disturbed:



philistine said:


> I can't help but say that I've never understood this kind of retaliation; that is, striking back at the guy. The fact is, when one's partner decides she doesn't like her current situation anymore and decides to throw it all away by being unfaithful, often wreaking dire consequences-especially in the case of the OP- the injured male in the equation is hell bent on smashing the guy's face in. I don't get it.
> 
> Ultimately, it's the woman who decided to make things the way they were, or are. Without her consent for the situation to escalate, it wouldn't have happened. If anything, it'd make good sense to show the guy your thanks, as such a thing would have inevitably happened anyway, albeit with a different enabler.



Retaliation may be an emotional or instinctual reaction but it should not be, in any way, the element of a good long term plan. If you wish to remove the 'bad apple' you need allies who are left able to operate freely.



alanmt said:


> Precisely, philistine.  The other person with whom your wife has an affair doesn't owe you specific duty, although they are violating a general societal duty of decency.  Your spouse, on the other hand, specifically does owe you a duty of fidelity and a duty to attempt to work out any problems before calling it quits on the marriage.  She is the bad person



Direct hit!:cheers:


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## Myers (Oct 7, 2013)

Blade said:


> Direct hit!



I'd say close but no cigar.  If you want to put it in simplistic terms, they're both "bad" people as far as I'm concerned, or at least they're both behaving badly; maybe one more so than the other.


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## Pandora (Oct 7, 2013)

Perhaps rational people don't empathize with mentally ill people. Maybe those who have loved
a person, watched the suffering, seen the crazy, know the crazy, do.

This wife is manic depressive, can not make rational decisions, is not on meds or seeing a doctor. 
She is medicating with alcohol, totally destructive. Has had a major shift in personality.
 It appears she has parents who do not understand the disease and the dangers it presents . . .
"we think she is bipolar" . . . then get her help. 

Considering a "fall" to be coming to her senses when this doomed relationship 
with Mr. Plumber comes to a much expected end. Problem is manic depressive does not work that way.
It is not a "fall" . . . "oh and I see what a fool I was." Not without proper medication and counseling. 
Paranoia in the depressive state is very real. Delusions and hallucinations. This is a fall,
even worse, much worse. 

To help the children involved the Mother must get well. It is what they want, they want and
need their Mother back. 

Why so easily turn away from the mentally ill? as though it is their fault.
It certainly seems to be going around though, the illness and the blame. We got a brand new crazy with no fix
in sight. I wonder why. I guess the stigma is alive and well just like it was decades ago.
My lifetime is not bringing nearly enough change. How disappointing.


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## philistine (Oct 7, 2013)

Myers said:


> I'd say close but no cigar.  If you want to put it in simplistic terms, they're both "bad" people as far as I'm concerned, or at least they're both behaving badly; maybe one more so than the other.



Of course. I wasn't at all implying that the guy was completely excusable from this affair and others like it; but in almost all certainly, if this guy hadn't come around and messed things up royally for the OP, she would have simply carried on with some other guy. It's why in situations like these (admittedly, it's a little harder to see the positive here, as the investment is very long- kids, etc), you should be thankful that your time wasn't wasted any further by staying with an inconstant trollop. 

The guy here was simply an enabler; one of many, who, having come into contact with the lady in question, managed to make her step over the line of no return and damage the relationship the OP had irreparably. If he didn't, someone else would have.

Not to paint in somber tones here, but there exist a lot of men who couldn't care a fig for another man's relationship. As long as he's getting what he wants, the rest is immaterial. After all, he may simply rationalise his doing so in precisely the same way I've illustrated above; i.e: she's going to cheat anyway, so why not with me? Better my jollies than Fred's three doors down.



Blade said:


> Retaliation may be an emotional or instinctual reaction but it should not be, in any way, the element of a good long term plan. If you wish to remove the 'bad apple' you need allies who are left able to operate freely.




I think you misinterpreted my original post.


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## Myers (Oct 7, 2013)

^ Well, we're only hearing one side of it and that's a filtered version. I think it's probably not a good idea to make any assumptions about any of this, including that she might have eventually have had an affair with someone else. Maybe she was particularly vulnerable when this guy came along. The OP has said that she might be bipolar; and mental illness is a real wildcard. We don't know, and I think it's best to refrain from guessing or assigning blame or saying who's "bad" and who isn't. It certainly isn't helpful to call people names. All you can realistically do if you're just hearing an abbreviated version of events on an internet forum is offer sympathy and general support, and perhaps share your experience, which is what I think this thread was supposed be about in the first place.


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## alanmt (Oct 7, 2013)

I do empathize with mentally ill people, Pandora.  Otherwise, I would not have stuck it out with my wife for as long as I did.  But mental illness is not a get-out-of-being-a-cheater or -jerk free card, nor does it require one's spouse to give up their emotional happiness or duty of self-preservation, particularly if undiagnosed or undisclosed at the beginning of the relationship or if treatment is refused, nor does it require the other parent to put their joint children in danger physically or emotionally to "preserve the family".

I agree with Myers to the extent that assigning blame when the fully story isn't known is a chancy proposition, but I think in this thread we are called upon to take the OP's assertions at face value and as the only information available.  On the other hand, blame is a worthwhile societal device - it is how we enforce and reinforce societal rules of decency and cultural norms.


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## Myers (Oct 7, 2013)

alanmt said:


> I agree with Myers to the extent that assigning  blame when the fully story isn't known is a chancy proposition, but I  think in this thread we are called upon to take the OP's assertions at  face value and as the only information available.



When you say  "at face value," it sounds like it's about intentionally withholding or  spinning information. But I know from experience that it's sometimes very  difficult to see or understand your role in things when a relationship is failing, and it's easy pick a  villain or identify and exaggerate some cause that allows you to better cope. And denial can be a very powerful thing. That's what I meant by "filter." Plus, it's just not possible to relay everything in this format. We're simply not hearing all of it.



alanmt said:


> On the other hand, blame is a worthwhile societal device - it is how we  enforce and reinforce societal rules of decency and cultural norms.



Sure.  Fine when you have all the information or you're at least hearing from both sides, otherwise it's just passing  judgement based on guesswork or preconceived notions. There's not much  that's "worthwhile" about that.


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## philistine (Oct 7, 2013)

Myers said:


> ^ Well, we're only hearing one side of it and that's a filtered version.



What I said could be applied to any relationship which has gone south because of infidelity. It's precisely due to the other side not being provided that I didn't speak further on the matter. 

I could speculate all day long, and maybe be right on quite a few things, though it's neither the time nor the place. As you say, this section is about lending an ear to the various members who feel like venting their spleen. A problem shared is a problem halved, and all that.


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## Pandora (Oct 7, 2013)

alanmt said:


> I do empathize with mentally ill people, Pandora.  Otherwise, I would not have stuck it out with my wife for as long as I did.  But mental illness is not a get-out-of-being-a-cheater or -jerk free card, nor does it require one's spouse to give up their emotional happiness or duty of self-preservation, particularly if undiagnosed or undisclosed at the beginning of the relationship or if treatment is refused, nor does it require the other parent to put their joint children in danger physically or emotionally to "preserve the family".
> 
> I agree with Myers to the extent that assigning blame when the fully story isn't known is a chancy proposition, but I think in this thread we are called upon to take the OP's assertions at face value and as the only information available.  On the other hand, blame is a worthwhile societal device - it is how we enforce and reinforce societal rules of decency and cultural norms.


There are cheaters and jerks, some could even be off balance but when you have a person who is mentally ill,
 in the deeps of that imo that is an excuse for actions because reality is eschewed and consequence perception doesn't exist. 
I don't feel the OP should give up anything only help the woman he loves to get the help she needs. 
To protect his children in this way so she can Mother once again. That seems the most compassionate 
and logical move for all concerned. To at least try. Not to abandon. She needs a diagnosis. 
She has not been given any help at all and she is being judged as though she was a cheater and a jerk. 
As though she were selfish and rational. Sometime we are just not responsible for what we do. 
I would say that is in the case with manic depressives and Schizophrenics.
I can not place any blame on them though I've seen the damage done. It would be easier to.
 I have also not abandoned someone for their illness and saw success with proper treatment.

I can't see this wife as bad I see her in a bad situation, a bad place, in need of help.
I see others do not see it my way, I understand that. My life experiences brings me to my place and theirs to theirs.


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## WechtleinUns (Oct 7, 2013)

Hm. Well, this turned out interesting. I don't really have a right to add my two cents to the conversation, as I've never been married, and young enough to not really be interested in romance at the moment. At the same time, I can feel that this is something that I'm going to be experiencing more of in the not-so-distant future.

It was interesting to read all the perspectives thrown out here.


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## Morkonan (Oct 8, 2013)

Brock said:


> ...This is by far the darkest moment of my life.  Please feel free to share yours.



I've worn a pair of the same brand of shoes that you're wearing, right now.  Nobody can actually wear the exact same pair of shoes that you are, but I can empathize, completely. It may be dark, now, but many bad moments seem like they're the darkest ones in your life. They're not. They're just all equally crappy, but in different ways.

This next bit isn't particularly helpful, but it may help you to put this moment in your life in a different perspective - This is the sort of thing that we are all made of. These sorts of moments, coupled with the good ones, are what make us.. us. Dark? Bad? Terrible experiences? Yup. If we weren't the type of beings that we are, none of them would matter. Would we want to give up all the wonderful moments in our lives, just because there are some bad ones in there, too? No.

I grew up with Dark Moments. As a matter of fact, I'm not going to tell you about my Dark Moments, but I will tell you about when I learned what they really were...

Somewhere around the age of nine or so, my best friend in the neighborhood invited me to have Sunday dinner with his family. My mother consented and I climbed our backyard fence, navigated through another yard or two and ended up at the kitchen door of my friend's house. I knocked and was greeted by his mother, who shuffled me through the house and to a seat at the table. My friend was there, his brother, his father and his mother, who then proceeded to load the kitchen table with food.

The food was served in serving dishes and there was a tablecloth on the table. Everyone had a knife, fork and a spoon sitting beside their plate. Ice-cold tea was served in glasses and there were little condiment containers scattered about. In the middle of the table was a nice roast with vegetables, potatoes and thick gravy. There was bread, too, and it wasn't sliced. But, what struck me most wasn't the trappings of an evening meal. It was the family... Everyone was smiling, joking, passing food and playing at stealing extra portions of their favorites. They talked about pleasant things, entertaining things... nice things. They enjoyed each other.

That was my "waking moment" as a child. That was when I learned something about what a "Family" really was. Everything that I know and believe about what is right and good about a Family started with this moment in my childhood. I have Dark Moments, but I'd not give them up if it meant that I had to give up the remembrance of other moments, like this one. 

My heart goes out to you, painted with a little strength, in case you need it during your current Dark Moment. Just know that while nobody is going to be able to make it any easier for you, right now, it may not be something you'll ever be willing to give up, if doing so diminishes the Good Moments that are still yet to come for you. And, they will come, you can count on it.


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## Pandora (Oct 8, 2013)

My darkest moment was walking into the conference room at our business April 16,1996.
I was late to work having dropped the kids at Six Flags. I found my husband sobbing and his partner consoling him.
His father had passed from a massive heart attack hours earlier, 800 miles away, at the young age of 72.

The shock of that would be enough but no it was not the event, it was the dreams I had, dreams I spoke of 48 hours previous. 
The pictures left in my head that would continue to flash for months to come. The police interrogating my mother in law. 
The bullet hole in the chair that was actually his cigarette that had dropped and burned a black hole in the fabric. 
The plate of greasy food eaten hours before at his favorite restaurant. I would learn this when we arrived in Milwaukee.

In the days that followed not only the pictures brought misery but I learned he awoke with indigestion that fateful morning
at the precise time I did from the most vivid dream 2 days previous. He made his way to the garage for his smoke 
and left this world.

I asked my husband to call and forwarn but it was only a dream. Only a dream. I should have called.
The funeral was excruciating knowing if I had called my Mother in law she could have changed the outcome. 
I could have changed fate. If only we believed. 

The last time I spoke with my father in law, Cap, was a week or so before his death. I can still hear his voice over the phone.
His wonderful charming voice. He called me special to tell of the lunar eclipse that evening. 
Telling how he wished he were there to sit on the top porch with me and watch it. 

To this day I can picture how that would have been, his hand in mine.
He was a wonderful man, childlike after his aneurism, foiling death so many times in his life. 
Shot down POW over Germany. Fatal car accident, robbed, beaten left to die in an alley,  beating Cancer. 
I can only wish now that things were different. That he had seen his great grandchildren. Drove his brand new caddie 
and played many more rounds of golf. That a lifetime would have been longer. 

My faith in God has grown from this, for me it was the way to make sense, to remove the awful weight of guilt.
I feel as though I have seen the other side and time does not exist there, just like when we dream.

I guess our darkest moments bring light as well to our lives. The kind of light we need to make sense.


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## The Tourist (Oct 8, 2013)

Now that this thread has become a mini-classic, I have a serious question.

_Would you rather live your life without darker moments?_

Tell you why.  My father lived his entire life with perhaps one major crisis.  And since it happened before my birth, an older cousin reports he compartmentalized that to non-existence.  He grew up in a two parent home, got a good education, worked at the same place for 42 years, married the first woman he loved (she was 17 at the time), they never separated or divorced, retired on a nice pension and stock options and died in his sleep.

Yikes, I almost fell asleep typing that.

From what little I have heard about problematic issues was that his father was a Bible banger, and turned him off of religion.  That's it?  Sheesh, yesterday my favorite stepping machine was in use when I got to the gym.  Make allowances...

So look deep into your soul.  I lost a woman I loved with my whole heart.  I got arrested.  I broke  my neck in five places.  One of our club members was shot and killed during gang violence.  My wife and I broke up before we got married and almost didn't get back together.  I've been fired.  I almost died of pneumonia.  We almost lost our first house.  I see my brother perhaps once every ten years.  I forgot to make coffee this morning...

Do you know what I call those things?  Well, today I call strife "Tuesday" because that's what today is.  Problems have made me tougher, more adaptable, it's made my humor edgier and when I love then I love that woman to the hilt.  I even think my writing's better than some kid in his mom's basement wondering what it's like to be hunted down and shot.

You take away the lows in life, and you have "average."  Do you really want to trade for that?


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## escorial (Oct 8, 2013)

Give me your farther's journey..........anytime dude.


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## The Tourist (Oct 8, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> No matter what, it takes two people to destroy a relationship.



Not always, but for the purpose of this debate, I concede the point.

If that's true, then he's partially culpable.  But that's not his gripe.  His gripe is that her infidelity stuck him with the kids.  If the plumber and her would have left town with the kids and given him back his freedom, I surmise he'd be the first one to pop the cork on a bottle of champagne.

He won't fight for his wife, and he doesn't want to be a single parent.  Just why should I respect the guy?


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## philistine (Oct 8, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Now that this thread has become a mini-classic, I have a serious question.
> 
> _Would you rather live your life without darker moments?_
> 
> ...



Damn, I really miss the 'like' button with posts like this.

On a related note, I believe it was the Marquis de Sade who once said 'it is by way of pain that we become acquainted with pleasure'. 

Calm seas a good sailor does not make.


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## Jeko (Oct 8, 2013)

I agree that strife makes us stronger. I do not however believe that a lack of strife makes us weaker. Strength comes from many places. I get a lot of mine from the Lord.


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## Folcro (Oct 8, 2013)

Cadence said:


> I agree that strife makes us stronger. I do not however believe that a lack of strife makes us weaker. Strength comes from many places. I get a lot of mine from the Lord.



Seconded.


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## The Tourist (Oct 8, 2013)

I was baptized by immersion in 1985.  It made me a Christian, not a fool.  I do try and turn the other cheek, unless there's great peril.  I remind folks that the Commandment properly translated is not "Thou shalt not kill."  Properly, it's "Thou shalt not murder."

Remember that we must reason together, and not make repetitive noises for prayer.  I'm not swayed by gibberish from a shaman.


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## Jeko (Oct 8, 2013)

> I remind folks that the Commandment properly translated is not "Thou shalt not kill." Properly, it's "Thou shalt not murder."


*
Off topic:* Thank you!

*Sort of a little bit more on-topic:* I must admit, I think Christianity as a whole is at its darkest hour. 

But that's still pretty off-topic and I'm not going to discuss it here.


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## BryanJ62 (Oct 8, 2013)

Sounds like a mid life crises and if that is so there is not a lot you can do about it. I've seen it happen. My only advice is to stay away from booze and drugs. Surround yourself with those who love you and write. You may be surprised how better you feel once the creative juice flows. Do not stop living. It sucks and it's not fair. I wish there was a magic word to say but there isn't. It just plane sucks but time does heal. I know it's a cliché but it does. Peace and good thoughts, buddy.


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## Morkonan (Oct 8, 2013)

Cadence said:


> I agree that strife makes us stronger. I do not however believe that a lack of strife makes us weaker. Strength comes from many places. I get a lot of mine from the Lord.



I have to say that I agree, in general, with the spirit of your post. However, I think that challenges are what make us stronger. For instance, I never hold an unchallenged opinion - They're worthless to me. Of what use is an unchallenged opinion? Likewise, my own faith - I would not hold it dear to me if it had never been challenged.

It may not make us weaker, but a lack of conflict with certain things, especially our own principles, may make us too likely to forget we have them in the first place.\

Or, in short, "Free stuff is worth exactly what you paid for it."


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## The Tourist (Oct 8, 2013)

escorial said:


> Give me your farther's journey..........anytime dude.



Why?  No drama. No salsa.  No challenges.  Heck, the biggest joy I ever saw in him is when he got one of those little Christmas gift packs with six varieties of jelly.

I took my Sportster out for coffee.  That's it, I went for coffee.  That was my afternoon.

Oh, on my way to the shop to see some other derelicts I may have left some fingerprints in the dust of Peterbilt's front fender, at 82 MPH.

I'll buy my own jelly.  But you need to get out, son...


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## Brock (Oct 9, 2013)

> Not always, but for the purpose of this debate, I concede the point.
> 
> If that's true, then he's partially culpable. But that's not his gripe. His gripe is that her infidelity stuck him with the kids. If the plumber and her would have left town with the kids and given him back his freedom, I surmise he'd be the first one to pop the cork on a bottle of champagne.
> 
> He won't fight for his wife, and he doesn't want to be a single parent. Just why should I respect the guy?



Evidently you didn't read my earlier post.  I fought for my wife for four months in ways you would not believe.  I've lost about 40 lbs in doing so.  I've never fought so hard for anything in my life.  Do I want to be a single parent?  No.  Why?  Because I want an intact family.  Am I more than willing to be a single parent?  Yes.  Am I going to have custody of my children?  Yes.  Is this my choice?  Yes.  Was I stuck with them?  No.  Am I currently in the process of proving the woman I love as an unfit parent?  Yes.  Are my children my number one priority?  Yes.  

It is not my concern whether or not you respect me.  I don't know you from Adam, but I do appreciate your input.


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## escorial (Oct 9, 2013)

Why?....to me The Tourist the idea of a life without to many dark moments feels like an easier ride...from your brief outline of your farther's life I get the impression he was happy with his lot and that is pretty cool way to be for me..


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## FleshEater (Oct 9, 2013)

It's nice to see you handled that post with a level head Brock, ha-ha! 

The Tourist, you jump to conclusions far too easily. You know Brock from about ten posts on the matter, and you're judging him like this? And judging his character as harshly? I don't think that's fair.

Also, on the topic of your father, just because he lived a Leave it to Beaver life, doesn't mean he didn't have dark moments of internal strife. Seeing as your his son, I couldn't imagine he'd unload his burdens on you, and I'm sure he didn't unload them on the internet for everyone to see. 

My father has NEVER unloaded any burdens to me. Any issues that him and my mother have had, they've kept private. Most likely they'll both die and I won't know half of what they dealt with when we were younger growing up.


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## Myers (Oct 9, 2013)

I think there might be some projection going on; or automatically  applying your own negative thoughts and experiences to others. That’s often the  case when you see someone jumping to conclusions like this. Like if my  wife left me and I was angry that I was "stuck with the kids" and that I'd be happier without them, or I even  imagine that's how I'd feel, then I assume that everyone would feel  that way. Most of us do it from time-to-time. Some people can recognize  it and get beyond it; some can't.

This Psych 101 minute has been brought to you by Myers.


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## Pandora (Oct 9, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> It's nice to see you handled that post with a level head Brock, ha-ha!
> 
> The Tourist, you jump to conclusions far too easily. You know Brock from about ten posts on the matter, and you're judging him like this? And judging his character as harshly? No offense, but you're a fool.
> 
> ...


Very true most especially back in the day. I traced my family tree generations back. There was much my parents didn't share
 about their lives long before I was born and they protected us girls from much while we were growing up. 
I know their ancestors did the same. 

Relating to this situation, open communication is the accepted way now and I think Brock mentioned he is trying to keep his kids,
 age appropriately aware. Let them see and know why the family is in the dark place they are.

But yes dark moments make us stronger, that is the positive outcome but it can also make people harder and more bitter,
 less trusting of others and even of God. So many blame God, why would He allow this or that to happen to me? 
It's the choices we make and others make that effect us, not God. I had a choice to make an all important call, reach out,
 I did not. I made a fatal mistake. I live with my choice and ask for forgiveness.

Brock has a choice now as I see it. If he truly believes his wife is Bipolar ask the judge for help when seeking her an unfit mother.
Perhaps she will see the light I spoke of previously. If not I'm afraid the day she does is far too late. She will be asking
forgiveness from her daughters.


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## alanmt (Oct 9, 2013)

*Let's avoid personal attacks and name-calling, please. Keep it civil and keep it polite.*


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## FleshEater (Oct 9, 2013)

Sorry. I edited my post.


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## The Tourist (Oct 9, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> The Tourist, you jump to conclusions far too easily. You know Brock from about ten posts on the matter.



And yet you judge me and my father with less info than that.

Frankly, my dad was the kind of guy who never got a dog because he feared the loss at death.  He never wanted me to sweat, enjoy life, take risks or ride bikes not because of what it might to do me, but because he'd have to get off his dead ass and have an opinion.

It's the reason he kept my mom drunk--at least she was quiet.

He was so afraid of conflict--his or someone else's--that he sent me a letter a when I was 33 years old telling me to denounce my "biker name," cut my hair, get a job he approved of and do it right now.  I told him that his opinions were best kept in a non-solar environment. 

During this entire span, from about my age of 15, I never asked for money, never asked him to pay my debts, never asked for bail money, college money, nor requested him to quit being a lazy enabler.  In short, he hid from life if your life was too stimulating.

Now to the OP.  There are only five Greek tragedies.  Issues of men and women are not differing because our grandparents rode horse and now we tweet.  
Merciful heavens, someone might get a blister!


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## FleshEater (Oct 9, 2013)

I didn't judge. I simply offered an opposing idea. Judging would have been making a concrete statement towards you, or your father. 

And, after reading your last post, it would seem that your father's entire life was a dark moment.


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## The Tourist (Oct 9, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> I didn't judge. I simply offered an opposing idea. Judging would have been making a concrete statement towards you, or your father.



Oh, I'm not mad, far from it.  Keep me honest.

Imagine submitting a story and getting ten responses.  Sure, it's nice to see nine guys who like your work.  But just as in life, it's the guy who sends you a "poison pen letter" that will provide you with the best long term benefits.

Stop and think about things like your best novel, your best teacher, the girl who stole your heart, the job you had to bleed for.  They all are remembered for decades, and they all share the same defining attribute.

They were all *hard*.  Painfully hard.  And finding success amid that exchange brought you some of your most treasured memories and victories.

Yikes, I get hate mail here.  Bless those guys, they make you stronger.  In the movie "Mad Max," the MFP administrator tells Max he got a death threat.  Max laughed, and told him he'd put it in "his file."

I think life is that scene played out over and over again.  The guys who cave in once will cave in again.  To bring this full circle to the theme of this thread, there's an old adage, "Faint heart never won fair maid."

There's a reason things become stereotypes, it's because they keep happening.  I have lots of rewards, but my scars were my best teachers.


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## WechtleinUns (Oct 9, 2013)

Tourist, I agree.


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## midnightpoet (Oct 9, 2013)

My darkest moment was the week I spent in a hospital mental ward.  I had been suffering from depression, and a combination of marriage strife, job tension, and financial problems led to a breakdown.  I really wanted to hurt myself, my self-esteem was at an all time low, and I hit the bottom.  We met in group sessions that week, and listening to the problems of other people made mine seem insignificant.  I believe the experience helped, but I knew I didn't want to go back there again.  The following year I was diagnosed with advanced prostate cancer, and I was able to come out of that ordeal with a better attitude.  My faith helped, and my wife was very supportive during the surgery and follow-up.  I realized I was burned out at work, so I retired and moved to my small town.  So far the move has given me good writing ideas, and that's a positive thing.


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## escorial (Oct 10, 2013)

midnightpoet..we often feel that there is people worse of then ourselves but your journey is what defines you as a person and the direction you are now heading is an inspiration to me.


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## Brock (Oct 10, 2013)

> Now to the OP. There are only five Greek tragedies. Issues of men and women are not differing because our grandparents rode horse and now we tweet.





> Merciful heavens, someone might get a blister!




And in the history of man, no good, loving, caring, attentive, loyal, compassionate and protective spouse has ever been cheated on through no fault of their own... [-X

And if more women would keep up with the laundry, cooking and cleaning, they wouldn't get beat.  And if more women were hotter their husband's wouldn't stray.  And if more men could offer their wives more material things and a better lifestyle and standard of living, some wives wouldn't cheat.  Maybe all betrayals and infidelities are self-inflicted.    

I'm starting to understand now.  "Love" is so complicated.


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## The Tourist (Oct 10, 2013)

WechtleinUns said:


> Tourist, I agree.



LOL, you should see my mail!

But my guess is that you might be older.  If so, to you such a concept has been proven to be true.  When you're still younger it's daunting to attempt something you feel might blow up in your face.

Finding out your life isn't going to go exactly as you'd planned, and then starting all over is something that most people do four or five times in life.  And those are not simple things like new cars or a new school, but ending relationships, getting fired, going broke and getting sick.

Admittedly, I am very hard on quitters.  When I first played softball as a very young boy, lots of guys were afraid of a ball coming at their heads, even afraid to drop a fly ball and look foolish.

One coach told us the old canard, "Quitters never win and winners never quit."

I think problems as defined by the OP are just an extension of that life lesson.


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## Myers (Oct 10, 2013)

Like Kenny Rodgers said, you've got to know when to hold 'em, when to fold 'em etc. etc. A "never quit" mindset can become delusion at some point. With relationships, sometimes you have to recognize that it's best for everyone to move on, as painful as that might be. The OP might be there; we don't know of course, because we don't have all the details. But at some point, if you just keep fighting it, all you're going to do is keep hurting yourself and everyone else involved, and the only thing you might get out of it is a restraining order. Otherwise, the OP said he's fought as hard as he could, and I have no reason to believe otherwise. We can only go by what he says; anything else is pure guesswork.


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## shadowwalker (Oct 10, 2013)

Myers said:


> Like Kenny Rodgers said, you've got to know when to hold 'em, when to fold 'em etc. etc.



Agree here. I've lived long enough to have learned that just because you want something, and just because you bust your butt trying to get it, doesn't mean you will get it or that it will, after all, be worth having. One needs to step back and consider alternatives. Some fights you're much better off walking away from, and some risks taken are really just foolishness.


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## Brock (Oct 10, 2013)

> One coach told us the old canard, "Quitters never win and winners never quit."
> 
> I think problems as defined by the OP are just an extension of that life lesson.



I have not quit on her.  I've quit on trying to reconcile our marriage, but I have not quit on her.  I am still trying to get through to her... as the mother of my children, I'm trying to get her to wake up.  I am the last person trying to do so.


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## Alabastrine (Oct 10, 2013)

Sometimes the more you try to help someone, the more they pull away. Your kids should definitely be your focus right now. This is going to be a tough road and time for them. They need to feel stability from you. Your wife may be one of those people that need to figure stuff out on their own or like someone mentioned before..let her hit bottom. I don't know her or you from Adam, but that is my two cents and I think you are a good guy for fighting and trying as hard as you are.


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## The Tourist (Oct 10, 2013)

Myers said:


> Like Kenny Rodgers said, you've got to know when to hold 'em, when to fold 'em.



With the limited information presented and the lack of trying and success, I would agree that "folding 'em" would be the best bet for everyone.  Let me explain.

Contrary to popular opinion the kids do not need the parents to "stay together" if the alternative(s) are infidelity and/or constant bickering.  It would be better to have two decent households, or for Brock to ask for sole custody.

It would be cheaper, too.  A full stipulated divorce and settlement (offer) would free up funds to get the kids the best life they can, and perhaps money for education.  I'm not sure that stability exists now in any form.

And let's not forget about the plumber--and I'm not kidding.  He wants her, she seems to want him, let them be happy.  Lots of people make the mistake of marriage, if the plumber and the ex-wife find happiness, more power to them.


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## Myers (Oct 10, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> With the limited information presented and the lack of trying and success, I would agree that "folding 'em" would be the best bet for everyone.



First you say we have "limited information," but then you insist on sticking with this "lack of trying" thing, even though there is zero evidence of it and despite what the OP has said to the contrary. I guess you don't see the contradiction there.



The Tourist said:


> Let me explain.



Oh yes, because none of us understand why divorce is sometimes the best option for everyone in the long run. Thanks!


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## FleshEater (Oct 10, 2013)

Myers said:


> First you say we have "limited information," but then you insist on sticking with this "lack of trying" thing, even though there is zero evidence of it and despite what the OP has said to the contrary. I guess you don't see the contradiction there.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yes, because none of us understand why divorce is sometimes the best option for everyone in the long run. Thanks!




:rofl:


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## midnightpoet (Oct 10, 2013)

escorial said:


> midnightpoet..we often feel that there is people worse of then ourselves but your journey is what defines you as a person and the direction you are now heading is an inspiration to me.



Thanks, escorial.  There was a time I wanted to blame my problems on someone else, but I have realized for a long time that i have to take responsibility for my own actions.  No matter, though, how many mistakes I've made, i have to put the past behind me and move on.  Otherwise, I'll end up back in that ward.


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## Brock (Oct 11, 2013)

Alabastrine said:


> Sometimes the more you try to help someone, the more they pull away. Your kids should definitely be your focus right now. This is going to be a tough road and time for them. They need to feel stability from you. Your wife may be one of those people that need to figure stuff out on their own or like someone mentioned before..let her hit bottom. I don't know her or you from Adam, but that is my two cents and I think you are a good guy for fighting and trying as hard as you are.



Excellent advice.  Thank you.


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## Brock (Oct 11, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Not always, but for the purpose of this debate, I concede the point.
> 
> If that's true, then he's partially culpable. But that's not his gripe. His gripe is that her infidelity stuck him with the kids. If the plumber and her would have left town with the kids and given him back his freedom, I surmise he'd be the first one to pop the cork on a bottle of champagne.
> 
> He won't fight for his wife, and he doesn't want to be a single parent. Just why should I respect the guy?





> One coach told us the old canard, "Quitters never win and winners never quit."





> With the limited information presented and the lack of trying and success, I would agree that "folding 'em" would be the best bet for everyone.





> Admittedly, I am very hard on quitters.



Can someone please show me where in this thread that I said I quit, got "stuck with the kids" or where I eluded to "popping a cork" if the plumber and wife took off with my kids and "gave me freedom?"  I'm confused.  Please, someone show me.  I mean, I stated that I've never fought for anything harder in my life, lost forty pounds in doing so, etc., and Tourist ignores it and keeps hammering the same talking points. I fought for her heart like you could not imagine, and I failed.  Do I regret how hard I fought?  No, because I will always be able to look back and know that I did all that I could. 

Who is this guy?



> And let's not forget about the plumber--and I'm not kidding. He wants her, she seems to want him, let them be happy. Lots of people make the mistake of marriage, if the plumber and the ex-wife find happiness, more power to them.



The man is a life-time cheater and home wrecker.  This is not my "filtered version".  This is fact.  He will ruin her life. 
He has already strayed from her once that I know of, which others have tried to tell her.  She will listen to only him.  It is a train wreck in the making and I will have to watch... and so will our children.

Also, my two cents: you don't get a happy ending from such a wrong beginning.


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## Trilby (Oct 11, 2013)

Hi Brock,

  I would ignore the negative posts.

good luck!


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## Myers (Oct 11, 2013)

Brock said:


> This is not my "filtered version".  This is fact.



Looks like you took exception to my use of the word "filtered." You really shouldn't. I don't think there's any way to present something like this in a totally unbiased, objective way; especially something this emotionally distressing; and it's certainly not possible to include all the detail here. I'm not questioning your veracity or suggesting that you are intentionally skewing or leaving things out. I apologize if that offended you. That wasn't my intention.


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## Brock (Oct 11, 2013)

Myers said:


> Looks like you took exception to my use of the word "filtered." You really shouldn't. I don't think there's any way to present something like this in a totally unbiased, objective way; especially something this emotionally distressing; and it's certifiably not possible to include all the detail here. I'm not questioning your veracity or suggesting that you are intentionally skewing or leaving things out. I apologize if that offended you. That wasn't my intention.



No offense taken at all.  Actually, I couldn't remember who used the word "filtered" in this thread; I just remembered that it was used.  I truly appreciate everyone's input in this thread, as I am dealing with this alone with no one to really talk to other than counseling with my church pastor once a week.

As I was just typing this, my wife, whose been cold as ice, called me asking if I was seeing anybody and started crying, saying how much she misses me and loves me.  It was a glimpse of the woman I knew that I haven't seen in a long time.  She is still with this man.  It's been four months of hell, and I don't want think I can physically or mentally go through any more. When I open myself up to this everything else in my life falls apart and I'm trying to stay focused on my job, home and children.


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## Trilby (Oct 11, 2013)

Brock said:


> As I was just typing this, my wife, whose been cold as ice, called me asking if I was seeing anybody and started crying, saying how much she misses me and loves me.



That's a real head mess up. My thoughts are with you. 

When it comes down to it - she had the courage to leave you and the children; it is up to her to find the strength and courage to leave this man, if that is what she wants to do. That is out of your hands.

Try and stay focused on your children and yourself. All the best, Trilby


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## Brock (Oct 26, 2013)

A day before our divorce date... Eyes closed, I was rinsing the shampoo from my hair when I hear the shower curtain open.  It was my wife, standing there crying and holding a list of the reasons why she loves me.  Our divorce has been cancelled and my wife and children are home... my family is home.  We are in counselling and trying to pick up the pieces.  Please pray for us.


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## escorial (Oct 26, 2013)

stay safe dude.


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## Pandora (Oct 27, 2013)

Brock said:


> A day before our divorce date... Eyes closed, I was rinsing the shampoo from my hair when I hear the shower curtain open.  It was my wife, standing there crying and holding a list of the reasons why she loves me.  Our divorce has been cancelled and my wife and children are home... my family is home.  We are in counselling and trying to pick up the pieces.  Please pray for us.


Oh this is the very best Sunday gift! to see this news first thing. Bless her heart, your heart, your little family. 
Prayers, yes always.

I want to add I like the handy emails coming to my box about posts to threads like this, a great feature that is. WF is awesome! 
Smiles all around!


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## Morkonan (Oct 27, 2013)

Brock said:


> A day before our divorce date... Eyes closed, I was rinsing the shampoo from my hair when I hear the shower curtain open.  It was my wife, standing there crying and holding a list of the reasons why she loves me.  Our divorce has been cancelled and my wife and children are home... my family is home.  We are in counselling and trying to pick up the pieces.  Please pray for us.



It sounds as if some prayers may have already been answered.  Congratulations on both of you haven chosen the "hard road." May you be the stronger for it!


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## The Tourist (Oct 27, 2013)

Brock, you will be in my prayers.  Yikes, man, having gone through the same thing I can relate to the pain.

The infamous "Red Queen" dumped me for a disco king back in the day.  But then she would periodically drop by apartment for "lemonade and cookies" if you catch my drift.  It was the yo-yo effect that got to me.  By night I was the apple of her eye, by day she hardly spoke to me at work.  Fortunately I found a decent woman.

I think I would have preferred a daily barroom brawl to the agony that caused.  I've been sick, injured and unemployed, but affairs of the heart always hurt me the most.  God bless, my friend.

Edit:  I must add this.  While I didn't like the way this scenario started, and I would have (and did) handle mine differently, I can sympathize with the pain that derives from events like this.  It's akin to watching a guy speed, then crash.  You might not support the action, but the human cost tugs at you.  I wish Brock all the best.


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## bazz cargo (Oct 27, 2013)

Hi Brock, you and your family are in my prayers.


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## Blade (Oct 30, 2013)

Brock said:


> A day before our divorce date... Eyes closed, I was rinsing the shampoo from my hair when I hear the shower curtain open.  It was my wife, standing there crying and holding a list of the reasons why she loves me.  Our divorce has been cancelled and my wife and children are home... my family is home.  We are in counselling and trying to pick up the pieces.  Please pray for us.



I am happy to hear that things have turned in a better direction. You certainly have a dramatic 'truth is stranger than fiction' situation on your hands here. it is always great to hear about things working out well as so often, sadly, it doesn't. Best of luck.


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## Mohican (Oct 31, 2013)

Brock said:


> He wants me to lose my temper.  This guy is all too familiar with CPO's.  A few months back he baited me in to making a threat.  His wife and I have been talking through this whole thing.  He took her phone and locked himself in a room, then began texting me acting like her.  He said something that he knew would set me off and I replied with "tell him if I ever catch him around my children, he's going to be dealing with an fng psychopath."  He called the police the next morning then convinced my wife to say that I was threatening her as well.  I never threatened my wife one time throughout this entire thing.  I was kept from seeing my children for 18 days.  He successfully removed me from the situation so that he could have his way.



If your going to do it, do it.   Don't talk about it.   Don't threaten.   Do, or don't do.   But don't talk about it.


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## Mohican (Oct 31, 2013)

Brock said:


> A day before our divorce date... Eyes closed, I was rinsing the shampoo from my hair when I hear the shower curtain open.  It was my wife, standing there crying and holding a list of the reasons why she loves me.  Our divorce has been cancelled and my wife and children are home... my family is home.  We are in counselling and trying to pick up the pieces.  Please pray for us.




I am very glad for you, and pray that you can pick up the pieces.    It will take work to do so, and a forgiving nature.


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## Brock (Oct 31, 2013)

I would like to thank everyone for their kind and supportive words.  Never in a million years did I think I would be part of something so bizzare with daily dramatic twists and turns such as this.  Like I said, I couldn't write this stuff.  The past half year of my life would put Dr. Phil's ratings over the top.  It still doesn't seem real... like a bad dream.  

I know that some of you are hard to convince of this, but I had a happy marriage and family before all of this happened.  We had our problems as most any marriage and family does, but it was like a switch was flipped in our home and everything I knew was turned upside down and violently shaken to pieces.  I wish this part of my life could be permanently deleted from my memory... but not really.  I don't think I'll ever be as content with my life again as I was a half year ago.  I don't think I will never be the same person again.


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## Brock (Feb 5, 2014)

My marriage is over.  Both of them were plotting from the day she moved back home.  She only moved back because I was about to get full custody of our children.

I came home to an empty house after work Wednesday night.  On Thursday, the plumber pointed a gun at my head in front of my daughter.  He is facing charges.

At least there are no more "what ifs".  I know I tried.  I was an idiot, but I tried.  I am depressed, but at peace.  I am ready for the next chapter of my life.


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## escorial (Feb 5, 2014)

That's a hard journey you got a face now man..you will handle it your way and as hard as it is over time you might get a feeling of normality back..stay safe man.


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## dale (Feb 5, 2014)

Brock said:


> My marriage is over.  Both of them were plotting from the day she moved back home.  She only moved back because I was about to get full custody of our children.
> 
> I came home to an empty house after work Wednesday night.  On Thursday, the plumber pointed a gun at my head in front of my daughter.  He is facing charges.
> 
> At least there are no more "what ifs".  I know I tried.  I was an idiot, but I tried.  I am depressed, but at peace.  I am ready for the next chapter of my life.



wow. i'm really sorry to hear that. i came home unexpectedly to that "empty house" thing, also. cold-hearted as hell. took the kid
and hid for 4 months. didn't see it coming. nearly drove me insane. that's hard, dude. i feel for ya.


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## popsprocket (Feb 5, 2014)

That's absolutely awful. You and your children have all of my sympathy for this.


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## Morkonan (Feb 6, 2014)

Brock said:


> ....  I know I tried.  I was an idiot, but I tried.



I know some of what you're going through. And, I have to tell you - This is where you want to be - You tried.

You tried and if there's anything that "Hard Times" have taught me in my own life, it's that you never, ever, want to have put yourself in a position to say to yourself "I didn't even try." You did. You tried. Trying to do whatever you can to fix a problem like this is just as admirable, sometimes even moreso, than having succeeded at fixing the problem. In this case, no matter what happens, there's no way you can ever say to yourself that you didn't try.

You did try and, most of the time, that's all any human being can do. You tried and bless you for that. You have done your bit and there's no fault to be found in that.

By the way, the only "idiots" in the world are those that know the solution to a problem, but never use it. You tried to help the solution be realized and it just didn't happen. You're no idiot and I don't care what sort of hijinks or crazy things you tried to do in order to make this thing work. You tried and things just didn't work out - That doesn't make you an idiot. (Believe me, I know - I am an Idiot and I haven't seen you at any of our meetings...  )



> I am depressed, but at peace.  I am ready for the next chapter of my life.



And, believe it or not, there is some solace to be found in that realization. Some endings are never easy to take, but after every ending is a new beginning. Now you have your chance at yours and I hope that any good that can come from this situation finds you whenever it is most needed.


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## Gavrushka (Feb 6, 2014)

Damn, Brock, I am sorry.  - Yes, I know that finality brings certainty and certainty brings a little relief, but I know how much it hurts all the same.

Who could be better prepared to write the next chapter than such as you?

The healing starts today and I think you're surrounded by forum members laden with ouch plasters just in case.


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