# Short stories are like jokes



## sigmadog (Aug 17, 2018)

At least the way I write 'em.

I've been working on a few short stories recently (trying to work my way up to a novel-worthy idea), and it seems some of my most enjoyable (to me) stories have started with a vision/idea of what the ending should be, then I write the beginning in such a way, leading the reader down a certain path so that the ending becomes a total switch in a surprising direction.

Having written a few jokes (during my short-lived comedy stand-up career), I realized that I write stories just like I wrote jokes.

Not a big revelation, I know, but it gave me a mild "AHA!" moment.


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## LeeGlenwright (Aug 17, 2018)

That was the Robert Bloch method. He once said that quite often, his method for writing a short story was to think of a final line and work backward. For that reason, a lot of his work reads like a series of very black jokes.

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


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## Plasticweld (Aug 17, 2018)

That is the only way I write. Give me a punch line and I'll give you a story. I am working on one now.   Started with the punchline and working backwards.  If you read my stories they all follow the same format.  The set up, form empathy, let them think it is going in one direction, surprise them with the end.  The formula for every good joke.


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## luckyscars (Aug 17, 2018)

I wouldn't say I think of it like telling a joke per say, but I definitely agree working backwards can be an efficient way of doing it, starting with an ending scenario that is funny/sad/grotesque/etc depending on the genre and basing the entire story around getting to that. A great advantage to this method is it eliminates the problem of figuring out a story's ending because you have that going in.

But I don't _only_ write this way myself. Sometimes I write more conventionally, especially if the scenario that kick starts my imagination is one that has a question attached to it more than any answer. A lot of my stories come from a "what if I had X happen to X at X time in X place?" approach which usually necessitates starting at the beginning and seeing where the dice fall.


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## Plasticweld (Aug 18, 2018)

*Pushed to the edge by Bob Brown

In a room full of people, I would take his life, crush it out of him, and they would cheer me on.*

The start of one my stories, it starts with the end yet like any good joke, the ending is still a surprise.   Mis direction is the key along with taking advantage of someone's bias.


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## midnightpoet (Aug 18, 2018)

I've written a few stories based on (old, established) jokes.  Usually on short stories I have the basic idea of what goes on before I start.  I do like the "twist ending," but like to play fair with clues and foreshadowing.  Probably from my experience with detective and crime stories.


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## bazz cargo (Aug 18, 2018)

I find my shorts feel like part of a longer work.


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## Ace (Aug 19, 2018)

I prefer to consider it more along the lines of a magician, rather than a comedian - mostly because I've never found too many comedians particularly entertaining.  Like the magician, we have to use a bit of misdirection, slight of hand, and keep the real magic under the hat.  Then you go back after you've already read the book and start piecing together the many subtle actions that you now realize were putting you in the right direction the entire time.

I do agree, though, I love that format.  You know where the story is going to end up, you know what's going to happen to the characters, so you start to work backwards to assemble to various bits and pieces of the puzzle.


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## Dino_Gonzalez (Aug 19, 2018)

You write the story out really well. The only thing I remember that you wrote, a story with a wife always saying no. that story had one conflict. I don't think it would mater much who wrote that from the initial encompassing idea, outward. I think you flesh out ideas really well. If you need to focus on anything, It would be making more elaborate story structures. coming from someone who posted a pretty badly structured story yesterday. Still, in my opinion that where you need to look at.


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## EmmaSohan (Aug 19, 2018)

I think there is a much bigger picture. Near the start of the book I was looking at yesterday: "You're mom called earlier," Gigi said, trying to act nonchalant, but I knew a warning breath when I heard one.

We can imagine something coming that is so amazing it could be the ending line of a short story. Or the brilliant hook to a book. Or, and this is my point, just an exciting moment in a story.

Among other problems, we have already read this just prior to the scene: "All I wanted was to spend Christmas vacation with my own mother in my own house. Was that too much to ask? Apparently. It's like this...."

So, Gigi's bad news is that she won't be spending Christmas vacation with her mother, and we were told that before the scene. In other words, the author gave away the punch line! I don't know what the author was thinking, because she actually did a bit of work to set up that moment.

So, IMO, there is very good reason for the structure of a joke, and it should be applied to a lot of places in a book.


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## Underd0g (Aug 19, 2018)

Yeah, of course I'm going to like this conversation and all of its contributions.
It's why I like limericks. Makes me concentrate on word choices and twists.

Now I'm thinking about a long story from a different perspective. My children's stories all are based on completing stories in each chapter 
but I could just think of a different context to end a chapter. I have a heist in mind that this revelation may help significantly.

Thanks for starting this thread.


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## sigmadog (Aug 19, 2018)

EmmaSohan said:


> So, IMO, there is very good reason for the structure of a joke, and it should be applied to a lot of places in a book.



Agreed. 

Also, it should go without saying that writing with an eye toward "Joke structure" is not about making a reader laugh. It's about setting up reader expectations for one thing and then surprising them with something completely unexpected. That's what comedy is. The laughs in a comedy routine largely come from the unexpected.

It's just an analogy. Use it if it works for you. Since humor and jokes are part of my personality, the analogy fits well with the way I think and write.


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## Ralph Rotten (Aug 19, 2018)

I can't remember ever working backwards from the ending.
I usually get an idea and began building a world where it would be plausible, and the ending comes much later.  
Sometimes i write the whole story before I know the ending.
That is the neat thing about short stories. Try that stuff with a book and you can quickly write yourself into a corner, surrounded by lava.
I hate when that happens.
Not the lava, the corner.
Actually when I was a kid I really wanted a bucket of lava...just so I could stick things in it and see how they melted.

What were we talking about? :stupid:


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## EmmaSohan (Aug 20, 2018)

sigmadog said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Also, it should go without saying that writing with an eye toward "Joke structure" is not about making a reader laugh. It's about setting up reader expectations for one thing and then surprising them with something completely unexpected. That's what comedy is. The laughs in a comedy routine largely come from the unexpected.
> 
> It's just an analogy. Use it if it works for you. Since humor and jokes are part of my personality, the analogy fits well with the way I think and write.



For a joke, isn't there always a sense that "I could have seen that coming"? I mean, the person didn't see it coming, but isn't there a sense that the clues were there?

In writing, we talk about surprise and the unexpected, but most really good moments -- including I assume the surprise endings to short stories -- fit with what went before. Something bizarre or "from nowhere" doesn't work.

Or, part of the humor in a joke is that the listener assumed something that wasn't true. And same for that surprising or unexpected event.


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## sigmadog (Aug 20, 2018)

EmmaSohan said:


> For a joke, isn't there always a sense that "I could have seen that coming"? I mean, the person didn't see it coming, but isn't there a sense that the clues were there?
> 
> In writing, we talk about surprise and the unexpected, but most really good moments -- including I assume the surprise endings to short stories -- fit with what went before. Something bizarre or "from nowhere" doesn't work.
> 
> Or, part of the humor in a joke is that the listener assumed something that wasn't true. And same for that surprising or unexpected event.



It's just an analogy. I try not to over-think it.

Many good jokes have some fore-shadowing in them, but only in hindsight. The comedian chooses the precise words to use that lead the listener down a particular path, even if those same words taken another way could lead in a totally different direction. But it is the comedian's skill in how he/she uses those words that keeps the listener on the "right" path so that when the punch line is sprung, it's not what they expected.

Other jokes seemingly spring from nowhere (or in my case, a perpetually juvenile mind):

*"Let me tell you a little about myself;
I brush my teeth naked because I like the way it makes my balls jiggle."
*
No fore-shadowing. Just uncomfortable laughter. If I left it there, it would have just been a shock joke, which aren't my favorites. But it did set the racy tone I wanted (and alludes to the final, bigger laugh) for what comes after.

*"I do it because I'm getting old, and I need to get my thrills where I can."*

A minor chuckle here. I'm building structure and empathy.

*"In fact, I like it so much I'm thinking of getting an electric toothbrush - one with adjustable settings. Ladies, I think you know what I'm talking about."
*
Giggles and a wink. Hint. Hint. Here's the final setup:

*"You've seen those vibrating toothbrushes? They're amazing! Who had the idea of sticking a VIBRATOR on the end of a TOOTHBRUSH?"*

And the big punchline:

*"My God! Talk about thinking outside the box!"

*Think what you will of the joke. It worked magnificently as it built upon each element. Nobody predicted the punchline. I suppose someone could have predicted the final punchline, but most didn't.

If you wanna see me in action: 

[video=youtube_share;pozemGuBWOE]https://youtu.be/pozemGuBWOE[/video]


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## JJBuchholz (Aug 21, 2018)

sigmadog said:


> I've been working on a few short stories recently (trying to work my way up to a novel-worthy idea), and it seems some of my most enjoyable (to me) stories have started with a vision/idea of what the ending should be, then I write the beginning in such a way, leading the reader down a certain path so that the ending becomes a total switch in a surprising direction.



Ah yes, the almighty 'swerve'. 

Sometimes, it's a necessary plot device in a short story, depending on what kind of a story you are trying to tell. As all I write are short stories and the occasional novella, the type of story and it's characters determine whether or not I utilize a swerve. 

For example, if I'm writing a romance story, there will almost never be any kind of swerve, as I am playing on the emotions of the characters and their interactions. If it's an action or adventure story, the plot and/or goals the characters are trying to achieve will determine the type and/or severity of the swerve, which would lead to either a fulfilled ending, or a lead in to another adventure. 

But then again, that's some of the fun of being a writer - deciding when to swerve or not, going over your characters constantly, as well as the ever changing plot or subplots in certain works. 

-JJB


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## Plasticweld (Aug 21, 2018)

The other parallel between comedy and a good short story writer is the ability to bring to the attention of the listener or reader the absurdity of something or the ability to stand back and see something that they have known all along but never really thought of or examined.   

The ability to impart some sort of knowledge or wisdom through observing human nature always seems to be part of the formula. 


Good comedians and writers notice all the small things that most people just seem to miss.  Pointing those out is the joy of both.


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## Plasticweld (Aug 21, 2018)

sigmadog said:


> n:
> 
> [video=youtube_share;pozemGuBWOE]https://youtu.be/pozemGuBWOE[/video]



I loved the clip :} . 

The similarities being a stand up comedian and preaching are amazing.    We both talk about human nature and the effects of it.  We get about twenty minutes to win the crowd over.  We learn more from our failures than our successes. To truly bomb in front of a crowd  is something only a few people get to do.    


I got involved in the ministry because I got a microphone, a podium and an audience. :}


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## EmmaSohan (Aug 23, 2018)

sigmadog said:


> *"Let me tell you a little about myself;
> I brush my teeth naked because I like the way it makes my balls jiggle."
> *
> No fore-shadowing. Just uncomfortable laughter. If I left it there, it would have just been a shock joke, which aren't my favorites. But it did set the racy tone I wanted (and alludes to the final, bigger laugh) for what comes after.



Look at the setup. "Let me still you *something strange* abut myself" wouldn't work as well. Right? But neither would "Let me *say *a little about myself." "Tell you" is, in my mind, idiomatic for saying something biographical. So, to me, "tell you" was subtly misleading and great writing.



sigmadog said:


> Think what you will of the joke. It worked magnificently as it built upon each element. Nobody predicted the punchline. I suppose someone could have predicted the final punchline, but most didn't.



I wouldn't call this a joke, I would call it stand up. My experience in telling a joke is that if the person laughs, I stop. Or lacking self control, I regret not stopping.

Right, no one should see it coming. But it also makes sense.


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## Underd0g (Aug 23, 2018)

Here's one I think I made up:


I was wondering why my Word program didn't alert me when I typed in "complaun", then I remembered that I added it to the dictionary.


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## sigmadog (Aug 23, 2018)

EmmaSohan said:


> I wouldn't call this a joke, I would call it stand up.



To-mate-o. To-mah-to.

Sort of a distinction without a difference, from my point of view.

Stand up is performance art with a focus on telling jokes in batches. 

For me each performance was written and rehearsed word-for-word, with very little left to chance. I greatly admired those comics who could do "crowd work", that is, make jokes on the spot from audience input. THAT took much more talent than I ever possessed.

My "career" lasted for about ten open-mic performances before I realized I was much more comfortable making smart ass remarks in front of a computer screen than a crowd of people.


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## Vida Paradox (Aug 23, 2018)

Hi, just wanted to say that reading this thread is huge eureka moment in my life. Being someone who struggles to write short and simple plot, this is one of those cosmic relevations that I just can't believe happening in my life.

Seriously though, working backwards, how in the name of Community Guidelines did I not know this before?


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## moderan (Aug 24, 2018)

Plasticweld said:


> The other parallel between comedy and a good short story writer is the ability to bring to the attention of the listener or reader the absurdity of something or the ability to stand back and see something that they have known all along but never really thought of or examined.
> 
> The ability to impart some sort of knowledge or wisdom through observing human nature always seems to be part of the formula.
> 
> ...



This is notably well-said. That is what marks good work, to my mind, the saying of something new, observed, processed, iterated, common to many, or a new means of expressing something older.
It means one has to think well, not just cleverly, to make it work.


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## EmmaSohan (Aug 27, 2018)

sigmadog said:


> To-mate-o. To-mah-to.
> 
> Sort of a distinction [joke versus standup comedy] without a difference, from my point of view.
> 
> Stand up is performance art with a focus on telling jokes in batches.



You started out staying your short stories were like a joke. Did you really want to say your short stories are like standup? I am guessing not.

In a joke, usually, the listener is led astray, then the punchline changes how something is seen. If you look at your "punch lines" for your stand up, the listener is in on the joke already and the humor is from seeing both meanings. Now, that is a technique in writing, when the reader knows that characters perspective but the reader also has a different perspective. Like in mistaken identify.

I also have a personal rule to stop telling my joke or humorous story when the listener laughs. Stand up is more like if the listener liked the punch line to a joke, you would tell it again with exaggeration.

So. If you want to say that we can use the same techniques in our writing that we use in standup, I want to talk about it. But I'm guessing they don't fit your stories, if your short stories are like jokes.


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## Underd0g (Aug 27, 2018)

EmmaSohan said:


> You started out staying your short stories were like a joke. Did you really want to say your short stories are like standup? I am guessing not.
> 
> In a joke, usually, the listener is led astray, then the punchline changes how something is seen. If you look at your "punch lines" for your stand up, the listener is in on the joke already and the humor is from seeing both meanings. Now, that is a technique in writing, when the reader knows that characters perspective but the reader also has a different perspective. Like in mistaken identify.
> 
> ...



Here an example of how I interpreted what he's talking about in one of my own short stories:

https://www.writingforums.com/threads/177992-Everybody-Needs-A-Hobby?highlight=


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