# is this really helpful?



## Sunrise (Jun 30, 2014)

Hey! WF!
I see some tutorial videos how to plot a story from youtube
i want your opinion about
here is part one
[video=youtube;54l835una7A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=54l835una7A&amp;list=PL92B3E146AB7D132F[/video]
i'm not making a show , i just ask for opinions
cause i'm fed up with it ,it's very boring


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## Bishop (Jun 30, 2014)

That... might be over-thinking things a bit. Or maybe just too formulaic? Hm. I suppose I'm wondering where this got so hard...


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## Nicholas McConnaughay (Jun 30, 2014)

Bishop said:


> That... might be over-thinking things a bit. Or maybe just too formulaic? Hm. I suppose I'm wondering where this got so hard...


I agree with this, personally.

- - - Updated - - -



Bishop said:


> That... might be over-thinking things a bit. Or maybe just too formulaic? Hm. I suppose I'm wondering where this got so hard...


I agree with this, personally.


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## Sunrise (Jun 30, 2014)

Bishop said:


> That... might be over-thinking things a bit. Or maybe just too formulaic? Hm. I suppose I'm wondering where this got so hard...


if you are beginner is that helpful for you?


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## shadowwalker (Jun 30, 2014)

^^ Agree. It's not as complicated as that chart thingy makes it seem. I've been writing for years and it confused me, so I'm not sure newbies would get anything but distraught looking at it.


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## Blade (Jun 30, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> ^^ Agree. It's not as complicated as that chart thingy makes it seem. I've been writing for years and it confused me, so I'm not sure newbies would get anything but distraught looking at it.



That would be my impression. It is not supposed to be like machine assembly with every nuance plotted in advance. I think a newbie would find it rather intimidating.:concern:


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## Bishop (Jun 30, 2014)

Sunrise said:


> if you are beginner is that helpful for you?



Well, I'm not a beginner, but I think it would be intimidating for most. And they'd be compelled to follow it to the letter, which can be toxic for people and stifle their creativity and discourage them as they try to force their story to fit a structure.


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## Schrody (Jun 30, 2014)

I don't find it "too" helpful, considering a lot of (new) writers know/have a picture in their head what will their story look like. Even if they don't, it so much easier to sit in front of a computer/take a pen, and just start writing the first thing that comes to your mind. A lot of things solves itself during the process. Don't forget there are a lot of genres, and what can work for one, doesn't have to for the other. Over thinking is a big mistake, limiting your creativity.


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## Sunrise (Jun 30, 2014)

Bishop said:


> Well, I'm not a beginner, but I think it would be intimidating for most. And they'd be compelled to follow it to the letter, which can be toxic for people and stifle their creativity and discourage them as they try to force their story to fit a structure.



first i said if 
not you are
why you are so mean?
i didn't insult you!
anyway ,thank you


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## Bishop (Jun 30, 2014)

Sunrise said:


> first i said if
> not you are
> please stop being mean



I... wasn't..? I was just clarifying, no ill-will intended.


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## Schrody (Jun 30, 2014)

Sunrise said:


> first i said if
> not you are
> please stop being mean
> anyway ,thank you



He was trying to say that over plotting/over thinking can be counterproductive, just as I said it too. Trust me, nobody's mean on this forum


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## Bishop (Jun 30, 2014)

Sunrise said:


> why you are so mean?
> i didn't insult you!



I really wasn't being mean, despite what my avatar might suggest 

EDIT: There, now my avatar is the least-threatening Kurt Russell I could think of


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## Schrody (Jun 30, 2014)

Nerd Bishop :mrgreen: Wait... :-s 

I like your previous avatar better!


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## Jeko (Jun 30, 2014)

I think the last thing a beginner needs is complicated diagrams. If a writer wants to pursue that route, the best way is probably to create their own. But I guess this sort of thing can help inform that process of self-discovery.


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## garza (Jun 30, 2014)

My opinion is that seeing this would discourage young people from writing.

Except maybe for the engineering majors. They might like this mechanical sort of approach.


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## Kyle R (Jun 30, 2014)

Sunrise said:


> [video=youtube;54l835una7A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54l835una7A&amp;list=PL92B3E146AB7D132F[/video]



Looks like the normal three-act structure, using John Truby's terminology (from his book, _Anatomy of Story_).

Truby's approach is pretty much the same as everywhere else, just with more confusing ways of describing the plot points (in my opinion). The _fake-ally opponent_ and the _fake-opponent ally_ elements always gave me trouble. It's an interesting twist to put into your stories (having an opponent switch to become an ally, like how Darth Vader did a reversal and fought the Emperor to save Luke, in _The Empire Strikes Back_... or, having Anakin turn on Obi-Wan, from faithful protege to hate-filled enemy, in _Revenge of the Sith_...*), but it's certainly not a required element of the three-act structure.

I find Blake Snyder's _Save the Cat!_ approach much simpler and easier to employ. 

It's kind of the same thing, though, so it really just depends on what makes the most sense to you. 

Nowadays I work with my own structure, a four-act model I've developed myself. I have to agree with the others here who say that this kind of rigidity to formula can cause many writers more stress than it's worth. 

Sometimes, I find myself wishing I'd never learned the three-act structure. :grief: It took a lot of study and practice to get a solid handle on it. Now, I'm beginning to declutter, to unlearn the plot points, to free myself from the mathematical binds.

It almost feels like I'm clawing my way back to the days before I knew about it.

You don't need to know any of this to write a good story. But, if you want to know it, be prepared for a long learning curve. Once you step into the Plotter's Woods, it can be hard to find your way back out. 

:encouragement:


_* I'm not sure why, at the moment, Star Wars movies are the only examples I can think of. _


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## dale (Jun 30, 2014)

Bishop said:


> I really wasn't being mean......



bwahahaha......welcome to my world.


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## J Anfinson (Jun 30, 2014)

Some people love that type of structure because it can help plot the story out to the finest details, which may help some get their novel written. And then there are those that prefer to just start typing and see where the story goes-- no plan, anything can happen while they type. What I did was try both to find out what works best for me. I'm a believer that everyone works best by different methods.


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## T.S.Bowman (Jun 30, 2014)

Man. There are SO many things telling people how to write. Plot this and plan that using this structure and that method.

I think I am gonna start making a couple of "how to" videos on just being a pantser and telling newbies to just try stuff til they find something that works.


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## Ari (Jun 30, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> Man. There are SO many things telling people how to write. Plot this and plan that using this structure and that method.
> 
> I think I am gonna start making a couple of "how to" videos on just being a pantser and telling newbies to just try stuff til they find something that works.



Yes, these videos! It would be epic ^_^


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## T.S.Bowman (Jun 30, 2014)

Unfortunately, I'm too ugly to make any kind of how to video at this point. LOL


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## ShadowEyes (Jun 30, 2014)

Umm, Ari-chan. Pantsing is less than epic. It's a short drop with a sudden stop. And then you might as well hang up your ambition to dry.


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## Ari (Jun 30, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> Unfortunately, I'm too ugly to make any kind of how to video at this point. LOL



Aww... 



ShadowEyes said:


> Umm, Ari-chan. Pantsing is less than epic. It's a short drop with a sudden stop. And then you might as well hang up your ambition to dry.



Ari-chan? I have been demoted. I was Ari-sama the other day, almost a god.

Besides which, I beg to differ. 
When pantsing means that a violinist named Capricorn commandeers a canal boat when I didn't even know my world had canals, it's marvelous fun. And if it all ends short-drop-and-sudden-stop (i.e everyone gets hanged) then I'll just have written a tragedy. So it's win-win all round, I reckon.


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## T.S.Bowman (Jun 30, 2014)

ShadowEyes said:


> Umm, Ari-chan. Pantsing is less than epic. It's a short drop with a sudden stop. And then you might as well hang up your ambition to dry.



Ah, yes. One more example of someone who doesn't think pantsing is a good thing simply because it doesn't work for them. I happen to find just sitting at my computer and allowing the story to just go wherever it wants to be one of the greatest things about the writing process. I would consider it, at times, epic.

But here's the thing...why badmouth something that doesn't work for you when it very well could work for a new writer just getting started.

New writers see comments like yours and won't try it...then struggle and fight to force themselves into being a planner/plotter. They'll then get frustrated because it isn't working and potentially give up.

That is not being helpful.


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## T.S.Bowman (Jun 30, 2014)

Ari said:


> Aww...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nicely said!


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## popsprocket (Jun 30, 2014)

Ari said:


> [...] a violinist named Capricorn commandeers a canal boat [...]



I swear that in just those few words there's a whole book series.

It's also a great opening line in the making.


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## ShadowEyes (Jun 30, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> Ah, yes. One more example of someone who doesn't think pantsing is a good thing simply because it doesn't work for them. I happen to find just sitting at my computer and allowing the story to just go wherever it wants to be one of the greatest things about the writing process. I would consider it, at times, epic.
> 
> But here's the thing...why badmouth something that doesn't work for you when it very well could work for a new writer just getting started.
> 
> ...



I wasn't being serious. Mostly I was referring to pantsing, as in dropping someone's pants down around their ankles. It happened to me once and everyone laughed. Perhaps this is a similar situation? But most importantly, I don't disagree. I actually agree because that's how Stephen King writes and how I write. It's the only way I can manage _to _write. And so I apologize for causing you undue stress... Fathom?



Ari said:


> Ari-chan? I have been demoted. I was Ari-sama the other day, almost a god.



I ran out of grapes. They got all squishy and heavens forbid the childlike empress eats of a squishy one. 



> When pantsing means that a violinist named Capricorn commandeers a canal boat when I didn't even know my world had canals, it's marvelous fun. And if it all ends short-drop-and-sudden-stop (i.e everyone gets hanged) then I'll just have written a tragedy. So it's win-win all round, I reckon.



Honestly I was just trying to metaphor my definition of pantsing (contrary to the _bona fide_ version) with death, with writing. In that both writing is typically sporadic when seat-of-your-pantsing. Because it all happens so swiftly. Sheesh, guys.


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## T.S.Bowman (Jun 30, 2014)

My apologies. I misunderstood...obviously.


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## ShadowEyes (Jun 30, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> My apologies. I misunderstood...obviously.



It's okay. Apologies and the whole nine yards. I have a knack for long replies, so I fright to take up more space than I need. However. It's late and I haven't posted in the forums in ages, so perhaps my sleeping mind really is in full throttle. And I try to be wittier than is appropriate, which makes for uncommon nonsense. However, till tomorrow, friends.


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## Ari (Jul 1, 2014)

popsprocket said:


> I swear that in just those few words there's a whole book series.
> 
> It's also a great opening line in the making.



Thank you ^_^



T.S.Bowman said:


> My apologies. I misunderstood...obviously.



Ah, me too. I'm sorry. I didn't know that 'pantsing' had more than one meaning.


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## J Anfinson (Jul 1, 2014)

In my neck of the woods that's usually called de-pantsing.


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## Ari (Jul 1, 2014)

J Anfinson said:


> In my neck of the woods that's usually called de-pantsing.



In your neck of the woods there are ghostly trees and fallen leaves, and the air is heavy and still. There is a door to nowhere attached to nothing, marked with blood-hand prints and guarded by a crow.
It looks scary.
ShadowEyes, Bowman... let's not visit.


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## Schrody (Jul 1, 2014)

popsprocket said:


> I swear that in just those few words there's a whole book series.
> 
> It's also a great opening line in the making.



John, a mythical creature Capricorn, played a violin at the corner of the Black Hole and Inflation when something terrible happened. Something he thought he would never see during his lifetime...


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## Apple Ice (Jul 1, 2014)

I think we need to give a bit more credit to newbies here. I doubt ones going to come here, see a casual comment from an absolute stranger, and then think, 'Oh no, that's not how I do it and I want to do it like that. I'd better give up.' That is the action of stupidity, not naivety.

The graph approach isn't for me personally, I really don't like things which make an art feel like piece of schoolwork. Again though, it may helpful to some.


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## garza (Jul 1, 2014)

Although I'm not, never have been, never will be, an artist, I agree fully that turning the creative process into something that looks like a homework assignment in analytical geometry or qualitative analysis is not a good thing.

To give my personal opinion as a professional writer to the question asked in the OP - No. The only formula I've ever found useful in writing is the inverted pyramid used in newspapers.


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## popsprocket (Jul 1, 2014)

Schrody said:


> John, a mythical creature Capricorn, played a violin at the corner of the Black Hole and Inflation when something terrible happened. Something he thought he would never see during his lifetime...



I don't know, I was thinking something more literal.

"A violinist named Capricorn commandeered the small canal boat with a victorious crowing."


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## shadowwalker (Jul 1, 2014)

Apple Ice said:


> I think we need to give a bit more credit to newbies here. I doubt ones going to come here, see a casual comment from an absolute stranger, and then think, 'Oh no, that's not how I do it and I want to do it like that. I'd better give up.' That is the action of stupidity, not naivety.
> 
> The graph approach isn't for me personally, I really don't like things which make an art feel like piece of schoolwork. Again though, it may helpful to some.



And yet I've seen newbies who are ready to give up writing because they can't outline to save their life and that's how it's "supposed" to be done. Most people just starting a new venture are filled with uncertainty, and wanting to do it "right". I've seen a great deal of "how-to's" for writing that would have had me shelving all hope had I seen it when I first got started. Thank God I was too ignorant of writing advice to do anything but write.


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## T.S.Bowman (Jul 1, 2014)

Apple Ice said:


> I think we need to give a bit more credit to newbies here. I doubt ones going to come here, see a casual comment from an absolute stranger, and then think, 'Oh no, that's not how I do it and I want to do it like that. I'd better give up.' That is the action of stupidity, not naivety.
> 
> The graph approach isn't for me personally, I really don't like things which make an art feel like piece of schoolwork. Again though, it may helpful to some.



If it was just one "casual comment from a random stranger", I would agree.

But there are a whole lot of comments similar to that one scattered around the forums.

Shadowwalker is right on track with the idea that most new writers are very set on doing it the "right" way. Writing can sometimes be a struggle. When a new writer is in the middle of having trouble, how high is their confidence in their ability?

How many times has someone come here and mentioned getting stuck or having trouble with their outline? My suggestion is always...forget the outline for a while and just let the story write itself. Of course, despite all the "do what works for you" talk here, the minute I mention trying to just pants it for a bit, 20 people who rely on outlines will come in and tell them keep doing what you are doing....just do it a little different. 

Maybe that isn't what the writer needs to do. Maybe the writer needs to try something totally different. But perhaps the insistence that the method they are already using (which isn't working very well) is the "right way" to go about the process eventually causes the writer to just throw their hands up and quit when they can't make it work.


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## garza (Jul 1, 2014)

Were I to advise a new writer I'd say something like this:

 'Tell the story. Tell it your way. Do not listen to those who only want to show you your mistakes, nor to those who tell you how wonderful you are, but rather listen to those who give you an honest appraisal of your work and who have understood what you are trying to say. Most of all, do not listen to anyone who says there is only one way to tell a story. Consider _West Side Story_ and _Romeo and Juliet_. Different times. Different writers, Different styles. Same story.

In _Ulysses_ Joyce broke many of the rules of writing. Last time I looked, _Ulysses_ continued to be counted as a classic in English literature and a milestone in the development of the novel.


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## Schrody (Jul 1, 2014)

popsprocket said:


> I don't know, I was thinking something more literal.
> 
> "A violinist named Capricorn commandeered the small canal boat with a victorious crowing."



Yeah, I know, but in my mind it's a SF/Fantasy


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## Ari (Jul 1, 2014)

Schrody said:


> Yeah, I know, but in my mind it's a SF/Fantasy



Yep, it's fantasy. But, it is a literal canal boat and Capricorn is a literal violinist.

When I'm famous you guys can buy my book and see just how he does it ^_~


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## Schrody (Jul 1, 2014)

Ari said:


> Yep, it's fantasy. But, it is a literal canal boat and Capricorn is a literal violinist.
> 
> When I'm famous you guys can buy my book and see just how he does it ^_~



Looking forward to see/read it


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## ShadowEyes (Jul 1, 2014)

If I may.

Pantsing and plotting seems to be a false dichotomy. When Kurt Vonnegut (I believe; I may be wrong) wrote out his story, he re-wrote it as he went along. Which means he had to keep everything in his head. Is this pantsing or plotting? I say neither. It's in-between. There're elements of both in each respective method.

The main goal, then, for new writers ought to be for them to have fun. The corollary goal would be for them to _start_. A plotter cannot start without improvisation. A pantser cannot start without direction. Where they meet in the middle (including ideas, character description, setting, etc.) is entirely based on the writer's comfort level.

Plotting offers less re-writing and cool moments to work towards. Pantsing offers a quick start and a drive to see what will happen. To compare two forms of motivation, pre-determined cool moments and curiosity, is indisputably up to the writer's concept of fun.

Ultimately, I believe the question boils down to:  How comfortable are you writing a first draft that's god-awful? Adjust your level of planning based on your level of comfortableness. But, after a certain point, the story must begin.

Pantsers:  Is posting on the forum both a boon and a curse, do you think? I'm just curious. I wonder if it inhibits productivity when one could be writing, unconcerned with opinion, or if the feedback and encouragement is enough incentive to keep writing in itself.

Caveat:  This all may depend on form or genre, too. Short stories _may_ be more suited towards plotting (considering their focus and, well, length). Mysteries might _need _plotting.


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## shadowwalker (Jul 1, 2014)

ShadowEyes said:


> Plotting offers less re-writing



not true - the care with which one writes the first draft determines the amount of rewriting, not plotting or pantsing



ShadowEyes said:


> Ultimately, I believe the question boils down to:  How comfortable are you writing a first draft that's god-awful?



Again, that has nothing to do with plotting or pantsing



ShadowEyes said:


> Pantsers:  Is posting on the forum both a boon and a curse, do you think? I'm just curious. I wonder if it inhibits productivity when one could be writing, unconcerned with opinion, or if the feedback and encouragement is enough incentive to keep writing in itself.



I use betas, not any forums, for critiques. But I'm wondering why you addressed this only to pantsers?


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## Kyle R (Jul 1, 2014)

ShadowEyes said:


> Is posting on the forum both a boon and a curse, do you think? I'm just curious. I wonder if it inhibits productivity when one could be writing, unconcerned with opinion, or if the feedback and encouragement is enough incentive to keep writing in itself.



I have my allotted writing time to be productive. During that time my internet is turned off and my fingers fly a mile a minute. 

When I'm on here, it's part of my designated "free time," there for me to go nuts and be as unproductive as I like.

Kind of an, "All work and no play makes Jake a dull boy, so why not have some fun?" approach. :encouragement:


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## T.S.Bowman (Jul 1, 2014)

ShadowEyes said:


> If I may.
> 
> A pantser cannot start without direction.



This is not true. I started my novel with 500 (or so) words of dialogue that had been running through my head for almost a decade. I didn't have the foggiest idea what kind of story it was going to be. I didn't know the name of my main character. I had nothing but those 500 (or so) words. 



> Ultimately, I believe the question boils down to:  How comfortable are you writing a first draft that's god-awful?



Why would the assumption be that anything written off the cuff is going to be "god awful?" Why would there be an assumption that a person who plans things out is going to have any better a first draft than someone like me?

A couple of people on these forums have read quite a bit of my first draft and have found a few issues with it, mostly in my sparing use of descriptive prose. But  nothing in what they have suggested would indicate that it's actually bad. I admit to it needing work. But no one ever writes a perfect first draft.



> Pantsers:  Is posting on the forum both a boon and a curse, do you think? I'm just curious. I wonder if it inhibits productivity when one could be writing, unconcerned with opinion, or if the feedback and encouragement is enough incentive to keep writing in itself.



I actually have found that posting here has helped me. I have slowed down in my writing, but I have found myself coming up with more workable ideas. One of my biggest problems before joining here was that I would analyze an idea to death until I just scrapped it. That made it difficult for me to come up with what I found to be viable story ideas. 

Since I have joined up here, though, I find myself taking a more relaxed approach and have started a couple of other projects that I probably wouldn't have several months ago.



> Caveat:  This all may depend on form or genre, too. Short stories _may_ be more suited towards plotting (considering their focus and, well, length). Mysteries might _need _plotting.



I am a pantser. That's what works for me. However, if I ever find myself trying my hand at a Mystery/Thriller story, long or short, I would most likely plot out the major points and clues so that I would be better able to keep track of them.


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## patskywriter (Jul 2, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> Unfortunately, I'm too ugly to make any kind of how to video at this point. LOL



What do you mean? Your little face is so adorable and that hat is just the cutest thing! :smug:


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## Jeko (Jul 2, 2014)

> A plotter cannot start without improvisation. A pantser cannot start without direction.



'Pantser' and 'plotter' were words invented for people talking about their NaNoWriMo projects. How they became common terms for writers of all shapes and sizes, I'll never know. But as long as they're in use, I think the potential of any discussion is diminished. I haven't seen a single thread benefited by their existence.

It's like a writing apartheid. 'This advice is for pantsers'. 'Plotters can do this'. Why do we segregate writers like this? What does it actually achieve?

I'm just worried that threads in this forum often turn into an online _Hotel Rwanda_ because of these two words.


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## Ari (Jul 2, 2014)

Cadence said:


> 'Pantser' and 'plotter' were words invented for people talking about their NaNoWriMo projects. How they became common terms for writers of all shapes and sizes, I'll never know. [....]



I guess because that's how words behave. They are common and contagious as colds.


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## Elvenswordsman (Jul 3, 2014)

This is really only useful to me as a 30 second revision. Perhaps brevity is the key to creating a piece like this for support.


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## Blade (Jul 3, 2014)

Ari said:


> Ah, me too. I'm sorry. I didn't know that 'pantsing' had more than one meaning.



For a word that does not exist it is doing well for itself.8)



Apple Ice said:


> The graph approach isn't for me personally, I really don't like things which make an art feel like piece of schoolwork. Again though, it may helpful to some.



I think for someone who is frazzled at the possible scope of an entire novel it may be useful as a sort of perimeter fencing.:concern:


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## T.S.Bowman (Jul 3, 2014)

patskywriter said:


> What do you mean? Your little face is so adorable and that hat is just the cutest thing! :smug:



If my son was able to talk a little better, I'd just have him do the videos.

Then again, maybe 'The Art Of Writing' as told by a 3 year old may be just what the doctor ordered.


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## Justin Rocket (Jul 5, 2014)

I don't know why pantsers are tossing in their two cents.  It seems obvious that he's looking for feedback from plotters.

As a plotter myself, this video looks very similar to something I've seen elsewhere, but I don't know where.
I think it was Truby.

My criticism
You use one graph instead of making use of the video.  Break your ideas into smaller bites and create graphs for each of them.
I tried to put myself into the shoes of a newbie and I found myself asking "why?" repeatedly.  Whenever you mention a structural component, ask "why is this so?"  For example, why is there a turning point at the halfway point?  (I know why, but you need to explain why to a newbie).  This will help understand the underlying theory which even pantsers might like to learn.
Simplify.  The hardest task in any design or architecture is simplifying.  "Simplify" does not mean "remove content".  It means "find the two or three heuristics which guide your story design philosophy".


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## T.S.Bowman (Jul 5, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> I don't know why pantsers are tossing in their two cents.  It seems obvious that he's looking for feedback from plotters.



The question was...is this helpful.

To me, it isn't. It's confusing more than anything.

I'm sorry. I didn't notice the "for plotters only" sign. Could you point it out for me?


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## Justin Rocket (Jul 5, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> The question was...is this helpful.
> 
> To me, it isn't. It's confusing more than anything.
> 
> I'm sorry. I didn't notice the "for plotters only" sign. Could you point it out for me?



You're looking for an argument.  I've got better things to do with my time.

R


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## T.S.Bowman (Jul 6, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> You're looking for an argument.  I've got better things to do with my time.
> 
> R



Not really. I just wanted to make sure you weren't seeing something that I didn't.

After all, I didn't see anything in the OP or any other post that stated pantsers couldn't post here.

*shrug*


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## Jeko (Jul 6, 2014)

> I don't know why pantsers are tossing in their two cents.



Because:

1) The OP asked for our opinions
2) It's an open forum
3) The 'pantser' camp is a mythical entity.

The utility of a writer's opinion is not dependent on the labels erroneously applied to them. Can we leave the 'pantser' and 'plotter' labels out of this thread? They won't do it any good, just as they haven't done any other thread any amount of good.


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## Folcro (Jul 6, 2014)

Getting back on topic...

I think everything has some use, depending on the person providing and receiving it. I feel that this is one of infinite approaches to story-crafting that could inspire an experienced writer on perhaps how next to go about things. But again, a mound of cake could in theory do the same thing. This is not something I would show a young person or a new writer.


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## Sunrise (Jul 6, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> I don't know why pantsers are tossing in their two cents.  It seems obvious that he's looking for feedback from plotters.



i'm sorry but why you are so mean?
i don't show my two cents ,i only ask for help or opinion
there's nothing  i expect to make you shout
if you simply don't like just ignore the thread!


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## BeastlyBeast (Jul 6, 2014)

If this comment is inappropriate or considered out of context, then I can delete it, or a mod can delete it, I do not care, as I am not writing this with the intention of being mean at all, but if you are just stumbling onto this thread and you are a pantser, or do not enjoy having your honest opinion and critique regarded as 'being mean,' skip this thread. The OP has only replied 2 or 3 times in this entire thread, and all replies were asking why kind-hearted replies were mean; one of the 'mean' comments wasn't even directed at the OP. As for me, I have not even watched the video, but judging from the opening image, I have the same opinion as a lot on this thread. It looks like something a plotter would find much more useful. I believe it could be a very interesting and helpful approach for people who want to stick ever-so-strictly to an outline and not take any chance at veering off-track. But, for beginner writers who are just budding, I think it's a bit too advanced. To answer the OPs titular question, it is helpful, but to a very specific audience of writers; advanced plotters.


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## dvspec (Jul 6, 2014)

I am a new writer.  Most of the comments here seem to be from experienced ones.  

I am a visual learner and being able to see the diagram is a help in the video.  I have been working on a story for a while now and the plot is what has frustrated me from the start.  I knew where it started, I knew where it ended and I had a pretty good idea of how make it worse, before it got better, but I desperately wanted a visual map to use in getting there.  

I think this has the potential to be that map.

With that said, there are a few problems.  

First off: *write a script*.  Don't wing it while recording.  You could reduce this video by half if you used a script.  I have the attention span of a brain damaged goldfish and you were losing me in the first minute.  You said the words "story structure and plotting" three times in the first 20 seconds.  

Second: Get rid of the numbers.  10% 25%. . .   This is to specific and actually wrong.  Stories vary, let that show in your diagram.  Use brackets to show - 15-30% range - instead.

I don't know how you are going to stretch this to a 12 part series.  I honestly think I would watch the first one and be done. 

Good luck.


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## dvspec (Jul 7, 2014)

I just noticed that Sunshine is a girl.  WHOA! She is also from Egypt.  I think there has been a misunderstanding. 

 This is not the person creating the videos. This is someone looking at the video asking if it was a good video to follow.  Whoopsie.  

In that case, my answer changes a bit.  *The video might be useful, but if they are being sold, don't buy*.  You can get this information anywhere on the net.  Look around the internet for how to plot and story structure.  

http://www.how-to-write-a-book-now.com/plot-outline.html  This one might help you.  It seemed like a good one to me.

Sunrise, I think the reason you asked "why are you being mean" is because a couple posts came off a bit snippy.  Ignore the snippy.  A lot is lost in written words with no body language or facial cues.  Everyone means well and is simply expressing an opinion.


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## Sunrise (Jul 7, 2014)

BeastlyBeast said:


> If this comment is inappropriate or considered out of context, then I can delete it, or a mod can delete it, I do not care, as I am not writing this with the intention of being mean at all, but if you are just stumbling onto this thread and you are a pantser, or do not enjoy having your honest opinion and critique regarded as 'being mean,' skip this thread. The OP has only replied 2 or 3 times in this entire thread, and all replies were asking why kind-hearted replies were mean; one of the 'mean' comments wasn't even directed at the OP. As for me, I have not even watched the video, but judging from the opening image, I have the same opinion as a lot on this thread. It looks like something a plotter would find much more useful. I believe it could be a very interesting and helpful approach for people who want to stick ever-so-strictly to an outline and not take any chance at veering off-track. But, for beginner writers who are just budding, I think it's a bit too advanced. To answer the OPs titular question, it is helpful, but to a very specific audience of writers; advanced plotters.



cool story bro!


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## Sunrise (Jul 7, 2014)

dvspec said:


> I just noticed that Sunshine is a girl.  WHOA! She is also from Egypt.  I think there has been a misunderstanding.
> 
> This is not the person creating the videos. This is someone looking at the video asking if it was a good video to follow.  Whoopsie.
> 
> ...


thank you so much i appreciate it very much


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## BeastlyBeast (Jul 7, 2014)

Sunrise said:


> cool story bro!



I'm going to take a wild guess that this reply is not actually complimenting my post, but rather is sarcastic. If it's not, then forgive me...

I'm guessing taking criticism isn't your strong suit? Can I be blunt? You're never going to get _*ANYWHERE*_ with writing if the tiniest hint of criticism makes you monumentally upset, or use sarcasm in your replies. You need to take criticism better. When you get out into the writing world as a published author it doesn't get better. Especially on the internet, if someone doesn't like what you wrote, they will be ruthless, typing things so wrong and offensive, they would get you a lifetime ban on this forum. I'm not saying everyone will do that, as the majority will probably like what you write, but the troll critics will be rude. I'm done with this thread if the sarcastic remarks and 'mean' accusations continue.


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## Sunrise (Jul 7, 2014)

BeastlyBeast said:


> I'm going to take a wild guess that this reply is not actually complimenting my post, but rather is sarcastic. If it's not, then forgive me...
> 
> I'm guessing taking criticism isn't your strong suit? Can I be blunt? You're never going to get _*ANYWHERE*_ with writing if the tiniest hint of criticism makes you monumentally upset, or use sarcasm in your replies. Honestly, I'm a little skeptical the video is even yours. The video you posted in the OP is from 2009 from a guy with almost 50k subs, but your youtube account doesn't have that amount of subs and only has 2 videos on it, neither from 2009. In fact, your account isn't even old enough to have videos from 2009 on it; try 2-3 weeks old... did you make another youtube account this year? Your little blurb under each of your posts begs to differ, at least with the phrasing (Finally I have Youtube account and video... _finally_ implies you didn't have accounts or videos prior). If you did have one in 2009, then sorry for being so skeptical, but at the end of the day, you need to take criticism better. When you get out into the writing world as a published author it doesn't get better. Especially on the internet, if someone doesn't like what you wrote, they will be ruthless, typing things so wrong and offensive, they would get you a lifetime ban on this forum. I'm not saying everyone will do that, as the majority will probably like what you read, but the troll critics will be rude. I'm done with this thread if the sarcastic remarks and 'mean' accusations continue.


this video is not mine please look up ,i'm asking is this helpful
and video channel  is not mine ,mine is in signature!
i made a YouTube channel for fun ,so i don't care how does people see it?
no you curved somewhere , i know i'm lacking of English grammar and plot 
cause  ,e is my second language and i don't understand the whole process 
from the start to the end but trying may it works ,may not


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## Sunrise (Jul 7, 2014)

dvspec said:


> I just noticed that Sunshine is a girl.  WHOA! She is also from Egypt.  I think there has been a misunderstanding.
> 
> This is not the person creating the videos. This is someone looking at the video asking if it was a good video to follow.  Whoopsie.
> 
> ...


thanks god , finally someone got it


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## BeastlyBeast (Jul 7, 2014)

I noticed about halfway through the thread that someone said the same thing about the videos not being yours. I fixed the post accordingly.


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## Kevin (Jul 7, 2014)

> i know i'm lacking of English grammar and plot
> cause  ,e is my second language and i don't understand the whole process
> from the start to the end but trying may it works ,may not


 Well this is great practice for you. You need lots of hours, audio tapes, an English speaker there 24 hrs.


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## Sunrise (Jul 7, 2014)

BeastlyBeast said:


> I noticed about halfway through the thread that someone said the same thing about the videos not being yours. I fixed the post accordingly.


Thanks God , you finally got it


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## Sunrise (Jul 7, 2014)

Kevin said:


> Well this is great practice for you. You need lots of hours, audio tapes, an English speaker there 24 hrs.


i don't understand!


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## Kevin (Jul 7, 2014)

Sorry. My reply is a bit off topic. I'm just saying that this forum is very good for your learning of English. And that anything you can do to immerse yourself in the language would help speed the process.
 I did understand that you were asking about a video made by someone else. It seemed clear.


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## Sunrise (Jul 7, 2014)

Kevin said:


> Sorry. My reply is a bit off topic. I'm just saying that this forum is very good for your learning of English. And that anything you can do to immerse yourself in the language would help speed the process.
> I did understand that you were asking about a video made by someone else. It seemed clear.


thank you ,i hope i can learn anything in here ,cause it's death life matter!
i didn't have any other goal since i was little girl! but writing!


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## Kyle R (Jul 7, 2014)

For beginners looking to get into plotting, I strongly recommend James Scott Bell's _Plot and Structure_. It's direct, it's encouraging, and most importantly of all: it's _simple_.

Bell focuses on explaining the main plot points in easy to understand terms, (points which he calls "doorways"), instead of distracting the writer with all the minutia that more in-depth plot-instruction involves.

The video in the original post is aimed at intermediate-level plotters—those who are already familiar with these terms and have some experience working with the three-act structure.

With this kind of stuff, a beginning plotter need to get an introduction to the philosophy of structure itself in a clean, uncluttered, easy-to-understand manner. Especially if the whole concept is new to them. If that's something that sounds appealing to you, I recommend the book above. :encouragement:


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## Sunrise (Jul 7, 2014)

KyleColorado said:


> For beginners looking to get into plotting, I strongly recommend James Scott Bell's _Plot and Structure_. It's direct, it's encouraging, and most importantly of all: it's _simple_.
> 
> Bell focuses on explaining the main plot points in easy to understand terms, (points which he calls "doorways"), instead of distracting the writer with all the minutia that more in-depth plot-instruction involves.
> 
> ...


 is there something helpful but free?


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## BeastlyBeast (Jul 7, 2014)

Sunrise said:


> is there something helpful but free?



You're gonna have to google it, if you search 'how to write a book,' or more specifically 'how to plot a book' on google, you'll come up with tons of free tip sites, videos, and diagrams on how to do any number of things involved in writing. Here's one set of info that goes really in-depth and it's free. It's more geared for fantasy writing, but for the most part it's general information that can be applied to any genre you're interested in.

[url]http://www.danielarenson.com/fantasywritingtips.aspx [/URL]


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## Sunrise (Jul 7, 2014)

BeastlyBeast said:


> You're gonna have to google it, if you search 'how to write a book,' or more specifically 'how to plot a book' on google, you'll come up with tons of free tip sites, videos, and diagrams on how to do any number of things involved in writing. Here's one set of info that goes really in-depth and it's free. It's more geared for fantasy writing, but for the most part it's general information that can be applied to any genre you're interested in.
> 
> http://www.danielarenson.com/fantasywritingtips.aspx


you are right , i'm so sorry for misunderstand that you faced today
thanks for your tips


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## Morkonan (Jul 7, 2014)

Sunrise said:


> Hey! WF!
> I see some tutorial videos how to plot a story from youtube
> i want your opinion about
> here is part one
> ...



Yeah, pretty boring...

OK, my opinion is : This sort of thing, a discussion about variation of the Three Act Play in novels and cinema, is fine if you're looking for an introduction to the subject of basic Three Act story structure and basic plotting techniques and the like.

But, anyone who starts off with telling you that, if you follow this structure, your novel will be "complete and awesome" is full of baloney. Yes, your novel needs structure and working hard to put in basic plot elements will be important. But, if you can't write for crap and can't construct a basic sentence with understandable grammar, no amount of "structure" is going to save your pile of poo.

Plus, anyone who pronounces "escape" as "excape" should be boiled in oil... (Just kidding, probably.)

If you wish to continue viewing these sorts of vids, there's nothing there to harm you. However, I will give you some general pointers:

This guy appears to be new and enthusiastic when it comes to writing. That's wonderful! However, old crotchety writers will be quick to note that nothing is "guaranteed" and that everything depends on the finished product, not the personal enthusiasm generated when the product was under construction. This guy "guarantees" so much and that should be a warning to you, right off the bat. I can, without reservation, guarantee you that writing can be taught and that you can even learn to write well. But, no one process, no magic pill, exists that produces skilled and successful writers. Writing is *hard*.

There is no such thing as "one way" to do anything, including such panaceas as "The Three Act Play" or the "Heroic Journey." This person, no matter well intentioned, should have started out by telling you that instead of insisting that "this is the way to do it." Those sorts of basic story structures will be found in a great many stories, even those that don't seem suited for them. (You can find the "Heroic Journey" in stories and movies that aren't "heroic" at all and there's no "journey" apparent...) But, these are basic sorts of structures that are meant more to illustrate certain concepts and assist those writing, critiquing or researching fiction. You are not bound to them.

Lastly - I think it is important that a writer become familiar with basic story structure. Too often, there's a lot of passion and drive to write, but little practical knowledge being used by new writers. You can't run until you can walk and if you don't know how to walk, that first step is going to be a doozy. It's possible to write a blockbuster without having any basic story structure knowledge. But, it's also possible for me to become an astronaut and be the first human being to greet an alien species... (The odds are slightly more in favor of the latter.) In that case, however, there are better tools and sources of information than this vid series. (How about reading a book on the subject? At least those are vetted by someone.)

PS - Yes, he's boring as watching rocks mate... You'd think someone who appears to be as interested in being "creative" as he is would have applied that to his "lecture" series... I hope he's not a teacher in real life... his classes would be full of zombies.


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## Justin Rocket (Jul 7, 2014)

Always be looking for new stuff to learn and master.  You never know what will turn out useful and your instinct for what is not useful will slowly get refined.   Some things that everyone else seems to be doing won't work for you and that's okay.  For example, I _hate_ the three act structure.  I think it leads to a saggy middle.  I  prefer taking the second act of the three act structure and breaking it in two so that I'm left with a four act structure.  I bet the overwhelming majority of story writers use the three act. 
On the other hand, something that works for you may  not work for everyone else (I believe most people in this forum are pantsers, I'm not and that's okay).
At the end of the day, what matters is the quality of the stories you create.  So, is this video useful to you?


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## Sunrise (Jul 7, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> Always be looking for new stuff to learn and master.  You never know what will turn out useful and your instinct for what is not useful will slowly get refined.   Some things that everyone else seems to be doing won't work for you and that's okay.  For example, I _hate_ the three act structure.  I think it leads to a saggy middle.  I  prefer taking the second act of the three act structure and breaking it in two so that I'm left with a four act structure.  I bet the overwhelming majority of story writers use the three act.
> On the other hand, something that works for you may  not work for everyone else (I believe most people in this forum are pantsers, I'm not and that's okay).
> At the end of the day, what matters is the quality of the stories you create.  So, is this video useful to you?


really i'm lost ,helpless


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## Sunrise (Jul 7, 2014)

Morkonan said:


> Yeah, pretty boring...
> 
> OK, my opinion is : This sort of thing, a discussion about variation of the Three Act Play in novels and cinema, is fine if you're looking for an introduction to the subject of basic Three Act story structure and basic plotting techniques and the like.
> 
> ...


thank you, but really i'm lost


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## dvspec (Jul 7, 2014)

*Mork, she is from Egypt and her English is poor.  This is a lot of words for her to grasp mixed with sarcasm which does not translate very well anyway.  I have translated it a little so she could get the basic message.  I hope that does not offend you. 

Sunrise, I tried to translate what he was saying so that you might understand it better.  *

Yeah, pretty boring...

 OK, my opinion is :* This *sort of thing, a discussion about variation of the Three Act Play in novels and cinema, *is fine if you're looking for an introduction to the subject of basic Three Act story structure and basic plotting techniques *and the like.

 But, anyone who starts off with telling you that, if you follow this structure, your novel will be "complete and awesome" is full of baloney. Yes, your novel needs structure and working hard to put in basic plot elements will be important. But, if you can't write for crap and can't construct a basic sentence with understandable grammar, no amount of "structure" is going to save your pile of poo.  *<He thinks the video maker is lying by saying that your story will be awesome.  Story structure is only part of writing.  There is a lot more that can affect it. >*

 Plus, anyone who pronounces "escape" as "excape" should be boiled in oil... (Just kidding, probably.)* <Joke, ignore.>*

* If you wish to continue* viewing these sorts of vids, *there's nothing there to harm you*. However, I will give you some general pointers:

 This guy appears to be new and enthusiastic when it comes to writing. That's wonderful! However, old crotchety writers will be quick to note that nothing is "guaranteed" and that everything depends on the finished product, not the personal enthusiasm generated when the product was under construction. This guy "guarantees" so much and that should be a warning to you, right off the bat. I can, without reservation, guarantee you that writing can be taught and that you can even learn to write well. But, no one process, no magic pill, exists that produces skilled and successful writers. Writing is *hard*.  *<The video maker is claiming to much.  Be suspicious.  There are as many ways to learn to write as there are writers.>*

 There is no such thing as "one way" to do anything, including such panaceas as "The Three Act Play" or the "Heroic Journey." This person, no matter well intentioned, should have started out by telling you that instead of insisting that "this is the way to do it." Those sorts of basic story structures will be found in a great many stories, even those that don't seem suited for them. (You can find the "Heroic Journey" in stories and movies that aren't "heroic" at all and there's no "journey" apparent...) But, these are basic sorts of structures that are meant more to illustrate certain concepts and assist those writing, critiquing or researching fiction. You are not bound to them.  *<There are a lot of ways to do things.  This is only one of them.>
*
 Lastly -* I think it is important that a writer become familiar with basic story structure.* Too often, there's a lot of passion and drive to write, but little practical knowledge being used by new writers. You can't run until you can walk and if you don't know how to walk, that first step is going to be a doozy. It's possible to write a blockbuster without having any basic story structure knowledge. But, it's also possible for me to become an astronaut and be the first human being to greet an alien species... (The odds are slightly more in favor of the latter.) In that case, however, there are better tools and sources of information than this vid series. (How about reading a book on the subject? At least those are vetted by someone.) * <There are no rules, but you should know the basics when you start.  You can write a best seller without knowing the basics, but your chances are very slim. >
*
 PS - Yes, *he's boring *as watching rocks mate*...<He's as boring as watching rocks make babies.  In case that does not translate, rocks are really, really slow at making babies. LOL>* You'd think someone who appears to be as interested in being "creative" as he is would have applied that to his "lecture" series... I hope he's not a teacher in real life... his classes would be full of zombies.

*I hope that helped, Sunrise.*


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## Morkonan (Jul 8, 2014)

dvspec said:


> *Mork, she is from Egypt and her English is poor.  This is a lot of words for her to grasp mixed with sarcasm which does not translate very well anyway.  I have translated it a little so she could get the basic message.  I hope that does not offend you. *


*
*
Thank you so very much! Very kind of you! I am not offended in the least bit and I applaud your demonstration of altruism!


			
				sunrise said:
			
		

> thank you, but really i'm lost



Sunrise,

The type of video that you were watching might be helpful for you. However, the person in the video makes many promises that are not true. They can not "guarantee" you anything. Following any type of story structure does not "guarantee" that your finished work will be good. 

It might be valuable for you to see such a video, if only to learn the terms and the basic styles of writing and plotting. However, the person in that video is a bit overzealous, too eager, to teach and makes some comments that are misleading. I would recommend buying a couple of published books on writing. I am not sure what is available in your country, but I'm sure that there will be books available that discuss writing fiction. If you have Western publishers available, any of the books published by "Writer's Digest" on the subject would be worth reading. (Especially the "Write Great Fiction" series.) I would also recommend anything written by authors "Donald Maass" or "James Scott Bell" on the subject of writing.

You do not have to follow the sorts of advice and plot structure that the speaker discusses in the video in order to write a good story. What is being discussed in the video are just a few simple ways that writers have learned to structure stories. While these sorts of structures can work very well, there are many other methods available.


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## Schrody (Jul 8, 2014)

Morkonan said:


> [/B] Sunrise,
> 
> The type of video that you were watching might be helpful for you. However, the person in the video makes many promises that are not true. They can not "guarantee" you anything. Following any type of story structure does not "guarantee" that your finished work will be good.
> 
> ...



Maybe the best post on this thread. Well said, Mork, nice and clean


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## Justin Rocket (Jul 8, 2014)

I don't know what Kindle offers in your native language, but Kindle has been a massive help to me.


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