# Are outlines really essential when writing a novel?



## Gisele9 (Feb 5, 2012)

I have started a novel. I started writing chapter 1 and after 15 or so pages of text that I had polished and rewrote etc, I got a bit stuck. Then I thought maybe I needed to know what happens all along the way, so I gave titles to the whole story and wrote a summary of what happens in the whole book up until the end. 

So now technically I can just open a chapter and start writing there when I am stuck with other parts of it. Is having an outline a good idea with a novel? Are there reasons why you shouldn't break everything down that way?


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## Yukinara (Feb 5, 2012)

well, there is no rule say that you have to have an outline, but you can easily keep track of the whole story and know where you are going instead of aimlessly writing. It's like getting on a car and drive around the city without a destination, it's a waste of time, effort and gas.


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## Sam (Feb 5, 2012)

It's whatever works best for you. Some people swear by outlines, others enjoy the freedom offered by going into it without any foresight. At the end of the day, it's whatever you feel comfortable with.


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## j.w.olson (Feb 5, 2012)

If you do have an outline -- and I swear by them -- just make sure that you allow yourself to deviate from it whenever you want to. The story is better when it develops naturally, but has a goal, I believe.


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## shadowwalker (Feb 5, 2012)

I hate outlines, but friends of mine swear by them. If this method you're using helps you get the writing down, then use it. If it stops helping, try something else. There's a huge span of methods between "Minutely Detailed Outline" and "Just Sit Down and Write It".


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## Raptor980 (Feb 5, 2012)

shadowwalker said:


> I hate outlines, but friends of mine swear by them. If this method you're using helps you get the writing down, then use it. If it stops helping, try something else. There's a huge span of methods between "Minutely Detailed Outline" and "Just Sit Down and Write It".


I hate outlines too. I usually come up with an idea and expand, but I guess it's like trying to build a house without the framework.


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## squidtender (Feb 5, 2012)

Neither of my novels had an outline any further than the next chapter. Two rules I always follow: Never use an outline and never do any editing or rewrites until I have written the entire story. Works great for me, but everyone is different. Find what works best and roll with it:eagerness:


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## Literature (Feb 5, 2012)

I wrote a novella without an outline once, and it was my worst writing experience. The story wondered aimlessly from one event to the next, often without transitions or connections to past occurrences.  I would suggest an outline if your ideas are relatively undeveloped. If inspiration strikes, then let the words flow.


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## Grafio (Feb 5, 2012)

My writing style tends to be automatic writing so outlines for me dont work all the time. I have the general idea of the book in my head, I'll write the idea down and work from that because I like the freedom of changing my mind along the way. If I work with outlines I feel too constricted but its like previous posters have said, its whatever works for you.


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## Grape Juice Vampire (Feb 5, 2012)

I am constantly coming up with new stuff, so mine isnt so much an outline as it is a collection of ideas that I can pull from when its time. It really does depend on what works in your style and works for the story itself. But, when I do use an actual outline, i add and deviate, i don't use them as if they are set in stone.


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## luckyscars (Feb 6, 2012)

its tricky. there's no doubt the more you have to work from - be it an outline, character notes, a synopsis, whatever - the easier it'll be, but sitting down and writing an outline isn't for everybody. personally. i don't write an outline purely because i like to spend writing time on actually writing, even if i don't end up actually using what i write. there's no fixed rules, however i do think that whether or not you put it to paper you should have some sort of idea of where *it's* going in your head. i often start with my ending and work backwards with my thoughts, so that even if i don't know what happens in between and even if there's changes i don't anticipate, i still have a pretty good idea when i start about where i'm going. what you don't want to do is to start a novel with no idea whatsoever about what will happen beyond the chapter/page/paragraph you're working on. there should always be some concept of an 'end', even if it is only vague together with a trajectory that can, with minimal adjustments, carry you to that end. the rest should basically write itself. good luck!


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## Robdemanc (Feb 6, 2012)

I think at a minimum its best to have some idea of the end of the story.  That is what I do, then I write from the beginning and allow my creative brain to take over in getting to the end.  But the end can change at any point.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Feb 6, 2012)

Add me to the "swears by outlines" crowd.  Are they essential? No, but you're almost always better off with one than without, especially when it comes to editing the story afterwards.  If you plan first, you'll waste less time fixing things when you're done.  Also, it doesn't hurt that I begin my stories by thinking of a point I want to make, which becomes the conclusion I want to reach.  Once you have your conclusion, how are you supposed to write a story but by planning out the events that lead to that conclusion?


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## shadowwalker (Feb 6, 2012)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> Add me to the "swears by outlines" crowd.  Are they essential? No, but you're almost always better off with one than without, especially when it comes to editing the story afterwards.  If you plan first, you'll waste less time fixing things when you're done.



Replace the "you"s with "I"s and it works better - no assumptions about universals :wink2:



Gamer_2k4 said:


> Also, it doesn't hurt that I begin my stories by thinking of a point I want to make, which becomes the conclusion I want to reach.  Once you have your conclusion, how are you supposed to write a story but by planning out the events that lead to that conclusion?



Easy - the author always has choices of what actions can or should happen. Will one of those choices lead to the conclusion? Probably. Or maybe the actions which are logical and natural will change that [erroneous] conclusion.


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## philistine (Feb 6, 2012)

Failing to plan is planning to fail.

I began work on what will be my first novel a few months ago. I've several hundred pages of notes, excerpts of dialogue, idealogies, quotes, etc, which I will eventually assemble to some degree of coherency. I'm determined to plan every page meticulously, so that during the writing process, I'll never reach the 'hmmm, what now?' predicament.

_De gustibus_ and all that, though. People should write in whatever fashion they wish.


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## movieman (Feb 10, 2012)

I've tried both over the last couple of years. I used to be a total outliner because I started out writing screenplays, but for the current novel I began with an idea, wrote a first draft from that and then used the first draft to try to write an ouline for the rewrites.

Having learned from that, I'm starting from an outline for the next one .

Personally I like the 'snowflake method' for taking an idea and turning it into a novel, though I've never followed it all the way to the end. I don't have the URL handy, but Google should find it.


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## shadowwalker (Feb 10, 2012)

movieman said:


> Personally I like the 'snowflake method' for taking an idea and turning it into a novel, though I've never followed it all the way to the end. I don't have the URL handy, but Google should find it.



I tried the snowflake method, but, not being an outliner to begin with, it left me cold. But a friend of mine also swears by it.

Try things and _use whatever works for you_. Don't use something just because someone else says you'll fail if you don't.


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## Dramatism (Feb 10, 2012)

Though you should, of course, do whatever you want, I like to have happy medium between an outline and a no outline way of writing.  Simply go through how you want the story to go.  If need be, write down your main points.  Whenever, in the course of your writing, you think of something new, change the end of the story or middle parts to go with that.  Maybe your story will change altogether!  Being spontaneous makes it interesting to write.


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## JosephB (Feb 10, 2012)

I'm disillusioned. I saw the thread title and I thought -- maybe this is it. Maybe I'm _finally_ going to get a definitive answer on the outline question. But nooooo! Just more opinions.


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## dale (Feb 10, 2012)

philistine said:


> Failing to plan is planning to fail.
> 
> I began work on what will be my first novel a few months ago. I've several hundred pages of notes, excerpts of dialogue, idealogies, quotes, etc, which I will eventually assemble to some degree of coherency. I'm determined to plan every page meticulously, so that during the writing process, I'll never reach the 'hmmm, what now?' predicament.
> 
> _De gustibus_ and all that, though. People should write in whatever fashion they wish.



lol. wow. that's really interesting to me. and i'm not saying what you do isn't good or correct, either. like you said...people should
 write in whatever fashion they wish. but i just couldn't ever see myself being able to do that. i could never use an outline. i have vague
ideas of how i think or want a story to go when i 1st start...but it generally ends up so much different once it goes on "print".
i wouldn't know how to write from a set agenda.


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## Kyle R (Feb 10, 2012)

I'm using the Snowflake method right now and I like it, and recommend it.

I've already tried the "write by the seat of your pants" approach and it didn't work too well for me. After a few chapters I found the writing slow going and difficult.

I find it's much easier to tell a story you already know (one you've outlined from beginning to end) than it is to make up a story as you go.

With shorter works, though, I prefer riding a wave of wreckless abandon. But for a novel, I'm definately leaning towards using an outline as being a smart move.

One problem with writing from the seat of your pants is it can lead to inconsistencies in characters. You may discover new avenues as you write, and the story can change drastically, whereupon your character's behavior from the beginning may not reflect the actual character your story is demanding to be written. This can eat up a lot of time and effort in writing a first draft, but you can save much of that expense by discovering all the details you need to know during the outline process, from beginning to end.

This way nothing comes as a surprise and the risk of inconsistencies is eliminated.


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## Dramatism (Feb 10, 2012)

JosephB said:


> I'm disillusioned. I saw the thread title and I thought -- maybe this is it. Maybe I'm _finally_ going to get a definitive answer on the outline question. But nooooo! Just more opinions.



Do people tell you how to paint a rabbit?  Sure, people do, basic lines and such can be shown per step, and if you follow it, you can draw a nice rabbit.  Does that mean there's only one way to paint a rabbit?  No, some people may want to show him jumping, maybe others want to focus on its cute face.  That would mean that they would have to follow different 'instructions'- or better yet, paint it their way so that it's a unique, individual rabbit.

Painting and writing are both in the left side of the brain.  There is no definitive way to go about it with  like there is with physics or math.  My way is not everyone else's way, and vice verso.


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## philistine (Feb 11, 2012)

dale said:


> lol. wow. that's really interesting to me. and i'm not saying what you do isn't good or correct, either. like you said...people should
> write in whatever fashion they wish. but i just couldn't ever see myself being able to do that. i could never use an outline. i have vague
> ideas of how i think or want a story to go when i 1st start...but it generally ends up so much different once it goes on "print".
> i wouldn't know how to write from a set agenda.





> Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.



Or something like that. I suppose you could say that I write, change, write change, then write some more, until eventually, I finally get it down on paper. For example, in the pile of notes I've assembled thus far, I probably have three different versions of how I want my opening to start (similar, but they vary nonetheless), along with conflicting notes on the character's attributes, specific actions, foibles, beliefs, etc, that I want my characters to have, or not have. 

I suppose this is why I'm somewhat oblivious to what writer's block is. I've never had it. I let an idea boil in my head, until it's eventually much like a memory; that is, I remember it from start to finish, and could write it one seemingly swift session. Sitting at the computer and firing out thoughts that arbitrarily come into my head is umimaginable. I can write comedic shorts _ad libitum_, as I can jokes, gags, har-har one-liners and other such things, though when it comes to an organised, meaningful piece of work, I just couldn't do it.

Strange how that happens.


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## Grape Juice Vampire (Feb 11, 2012)

In the time since I last posted, I have changed my "outline" twice, and my story, while similar to what I had at first there has been enough stuff added for six more chapters and a new character. And with it, my opinion of outlines has changed a little. I still think it's a good idea to have a place for ideas, but, I'm beginning to lean toward naming chapters and organizing it.


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## JosephB (Feb 11, 2012)

Dramatism said:


> Do people tell you how to paint a rabbit?  Sure, people do, basic lines and such can be shown per step, and if you follow it, you can draw a nice rabbit.  Does that mean there's only one way to paint a rabbit?  No, some people may want to show him jumping, maybe others want to focus on its cute face.  That would mean that they would have to follow different 'instructions'- or better yet, paint it their way so that it's a unique, individual rabbit.
> 
> Painting and writing are both in the left side of the brain.  There is no definitive way to go about it with  like there is with physics or math.  My way is not everyone else's way, and vice verso.



Yeah -- I was joking. That’s more or less the point I was making. Sort of. Sorry to make you write all that stuff.

I’m sure there are new writers who want to know if there is some best or better way to do things – that’s natural – and probably why you see so many threads on this topic. But I think anyone with any kind of talent and the desire to get it done is going to arrive at his own working method – maybe by trial and error or perhaps by some innate sense of what works for him. I think it’s all fine as far as conversation goes – but not much of this is of any practical value.

And to answer your question -- no. No one has every told me how to paint a rabbit. But I'd probably just hold it by the ears and dip it in the can.


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## shadowwalker (Feb 11, 2012)

philistine said:


> Sitting at the computer and firing out thoughts that arbitrarily come into my head is umimaginable.



Writing without an outline doesn't mean writing willy-nilly, you know. :friendly_wink: And (to answer KC) it doesn't mean consistencies are allowed to spring up and go galavanting away with the story. It just means writing the story as you think of it, and making sure that each new scene is consistent with what's already happened. You don't _let _your characters go ooc.


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## JosephB (Feb 11, 2012)

Yep.

Considering we are among writers here -- it seems odd that some can’t imagine that other people actually do things differently – and with some measure of success.


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## Dramatism (Feb 11, 2012)

JosephB said:


> Yeah -- I was joking. That’s more or less the point I was making. Sort of. Sorry to make you write all that stuff.
> 
> I’m sure there are new writers who want to know if there is some best or better way to do things – that’s natural – and probably why you see so many threads on this topic. But I think anyone with any kind of talent and the desire to get it done is going to arrive at his own working method – maybe by trial and error or perhaps by some innate sense of what works for him. I think it’s all fine as far as conversation goes – but not much of this is of any practical value.
> 
> And to answer your question -- no. No one has every told me how to paint a rabbit. But I'd probably just hold it by the ears and dip it in the can.



LOL.  Often, I tend to be quite gullible on forums.  If we were speaking, I'd sense the sarcasm, but it's not like there's certain text you can use to show sarcasm.  I like to think italics can do it, but I don't think everyone wants to make it obvious.

It was fun to write anyway.

Oh- and that was a rhetorical question, though you probably knew that.


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## JosephB (Feb 11, 2012)

Heh. Sometimes it's a matter of getting to know folks too. Cheers. *Passes virtual plate of brats and cheese curds.*


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## Jon M (Feb 11, 2012)

Couldn't imagine writing a large work (> 10,000 words) without an outline. Shorter works, though -- I just don't care. I love to see the evolution of a story through successive drafts, it's kind of like a journal entry, a window into what I was thinking at the time. So short works are all about 'discovery'.


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## Lalaley (Feb 11, 2012)

They are not essential, I wouldn't think. As others have said, it has to be to whatever works for you. I, personally, have tried to write without an outline, and failed. So, now I am writing with a kind-of-outline. I'm planning as I go, if that makes sense.. I know random parts of the story, but not the whole thing. But, I am feeling good about it... It is interesting to read others methods as well.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Feb 11, 2012)

JosephB said:


> Heh. Sometimes it's a matter of getting to know folks too. Cheers. *Passes virtual plate of brats and cheese curds.*



My first thought was, "Ah, a fellow Wisconsin man," but then I saw your location.  What the heck are you doing with those snacks down in Georgia? Shouldn't you be passing peaches or something?


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## Sam (Feb 11, 2012)

There are four people sitting at a table, on which sits a glass filled to the halfway point. Three of them are debating the time-old question of whether the glass is half-full or half-empty. They are called, for the purposes of this story, the pessimist, the realist, and the optimist. While they bicker among themselves about the correct answer, the fourth and final member, unbeknownst to them, snatches the glass from the table and downs the contents. It is over five minutes before any of them notice the glass is now empty. The pessimist demands to know why the fourth member has rendered their intellectual debate null and void. He answers, "While you three were bickering about the correct position of the water, I, the opportunist, drank it."

The moral of the story? Stop wasting time questioning whether to do something. The only person who can answer that question is you. Doesn't matter what anyone else says. For instance, it wouldn't matter a damn to me if someone came in here blustering about outlines being utterly essential. It wouldn't change my way of writing, because I established, through trial and error, that the best way for me to write is without them. Nothing anyone will ever say will make me change my mind. 

Find out what works best for you and stick to it.


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## Dramatism (Feb 11, 2012)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> My first thought was, "Ah, a fellow Wisconsin man," but then I saw your location.  What the heck are you doing with those snacks down in Georgia? Shouldn't you be passing peaches or something?



Hey!  I'm a Wisconsin gal and I second that- don't only us Wisconsinites have cheese curds?  Oh, I love fried cheese curds...


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## squidtender (Feb 11, 2012)

Sam W said:


> There are four people sitting at a table, on which sits a glass filled to the halfway point. Three of them are debating the time-old question of whether the glass is half-full or half-empty. They are called, for the purposes of this story, the pessimist, the realist, and the optimist. While they bicker among themselves about the correct answer, the fourth and final member, unbeknownst to them, snatches the glass from the table and downs the contents. It is over five minutes before any of them notice the glass is now empty. The pessimist demands to know why the fourth member has rendered their intellectual debate null and void. He answers, "While you three were bickering about the correct position of the water, I, the opportunist, drank it."
> The moral of the story? Stop wasting time questioning whether to do something. The only person who can answer that question is you. Doesn't matter what anyone else says. For instance, it wouldn't matter a damn to me if someone came in here blustering about outlines being utterly essential. It wouldn't change my way of writing, because I established, through trial and error, that the best way for me to write is without them. Nothing anyone will ever say will make me change my mind.
> 
> Find out what works best for you and stick to it.



Amen, brother. It comes down to one thing: SHUT UP AND WRITE:salut:


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## JosephB (Feb 11, 2012)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> My first thought was, "Ah, a fellow Wisconsin man," but then I saw your location.  What the heck are you doing with those snacks down in Georgia? Shouldn't you be passing peaches or something?



Peaches. Or boiled peanuts, Pork BBQ, grits, pecan pie, fried okra etc.

The ad agency I worked for when I got out of school had a client headquartered in Wisconsin – so a lot of the folks we worked with were from there. No one here had heard of cheese curds – so someone brought us some or had some sent to us -- they were really good. I think it’s more commonly known that bratwurst is popular in Wisconsin -- or maybe I learned that from our clients are well. I love them -- especially grilled -- but they're not too popular here.



Dramatism said:


> Hey!  I'm a Wisconsin gal and I second that-  don't only us Wisconsinites have cheese curds?  Oh, I love fried cheese  curds...



Fried?? That sounds lethal -- but delicious! And ya'll are the only ones I've ever heard of that eat cheese curds.


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## Dramatism (Feb 11, 2012)

JosephB said:


> Fried?? That sounds lethal -- but delicious! And ya'll are the only ones I've ever heard of that eat cheese curds.



Not anymore lethal than french fries or fried chicken.  It's really good, and though you can make it homemade, we never do, for that very reason.  My family gets them at Culver's (an amazing 'high end' fast food place mostly in just Illinois, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.  They also have great custard!  They're also great starters in local restaurants.  We don't get them nearly enough!


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## oornelakes (Feb 12, 2012)

Stephen King's "On Writing" and Larry Brooks "Story Engineering". Two completely opposite points of view.


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## Kyle R (Feb 12, 2012)

shadowwalker said:


> Writing without an outline doesn't mean writing willy-nilly, you know. :friendly_wink: And (to answer KC) it doesn't mean consistencies are allowed to spring up and go galavanting away with the story. It just means writing the story as you think of it, and making sure that each new scene is consistent with what's already happened. You don't _let _your characters go ooc.



That's true, Shadow.

But, for me at least, I find outlining to be helpful.

It's good to know the Big Picture, the full story, before writing it, because then you can adjust things, such as where the inciting incident takes place, whether or not the middle needs filling out, or thinning, and how satisfying the climax and resolution are. Instead of going back in and adjusting these things _after _writing the first draft, you can do it beforehand, by adjusting your outline.


Foreshadowing and Pacing also are improved with outlines. When you know all the twists and dips of the plot, you can allude to them and drop hints and build suspense. But if you just make it up as you go, there's no way you can possibly know what sort of twists and turns you'll come up with. This is fine, but it means that if you want to foreshadow and build, you'll have to go backwards and find places to re-insert such things, while hoping it maintains the steady flow that you originally intended.

What if you're writing and then you discover an idea along the way, _What if I had this supporting character fall off a cliff right now?_ Since the idea only came to you in that moment, your writing up to that point would have no suspense or build-up, as you weren't preparing for such an event. You might feel inclined to go back and draw things out so that it doesn't just read like "Charlie was walking along, sniffing the open air. Suddenly he fell off a cliff!" (Lol)

I'd argue that spurts of ideas that were unplanned can noticably jar the reader. Sometimes it takes several pages, or even chapters, of necessary pacing to build up properly to a huge event. If you don't know that huge event before hand, or if you pull it out of the air at some point, it's hard to adjust for it accordingly. But if you know all your events in your outline, you can write, thinking "Okay, I have this big event coming in chapter six, I'd like to start building up to it in chapter four, just after this happens, but before this other thing happens".

When you know the Macro events, you're free to focus on the Micro details. You don't have to stare at the blank page and wonder what comes next (which is something that, at least for me, can lead to rambling dead ends that I have to cut away and redo).

As for the character changing, an example would be: What if you want your character to noticably evolve from one state of mind to another by the end of the book? Perhaps you want Sally to move from being a Nihilist, into an Optimistic believer in Love and Destiny. If you have your story done in full outline, you can plan your events of the book for exactly how you want to move her through this internal arc.

But if you don't know what's going to happen, or don't know how you want Sally's character to evolve, it's almost impossible to acheive the same effect. It's true, though, that likely, your first draft will be an exploration and you'll discover your story and theme as you go along. I just feel like that can lead to much more difficulties down the road.. especially when it comes to revising the First Draft. There are many things that can go wrong.

So, for those reasons, I like the outline approach more. Of course, writing a novel off the seat of your pants can yield a great piece of work, absolutely! But for me that approach is more "hit and miss", whereas the outline approach leaves less to chance.

:cheers:


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## JosephB (Feb 12, 2012)

It’s not black and white. Writing without an outline doesn’t preclude any of the things you mentioned or make them more difficult -- and it doesn't mean you have no idea what's going to happen next.  You don’t necessarily change direction just as you think of things or on the fly – so you can still anticipate  events and integrate them seamlessly -- so they're not jarring.  If you prefer your working method – fine, but you’re making a ton of assumptions – mostly based on underestimating what other people are capable of doing.


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## shadowwalker (Feb 12, 2012)

KC - again, you're assuming that writing without an outline is all spur of the moment. It's not. Every move must be considered in light of the possible consequences - if I go this route, what could happen versus if I go this other route? Does either route sound like the way I want to go?

There is nothing in your list that is guaranteed to be 'solved' with an outline. My character says something or does something and I'm thinking, what are the possible consequences? After brainstorming on that for a while, I know whether or not foreshadowing is necessary or even wanted. Character changing? Sure. Depending on what happens to them and again - what the consequences could be. 

As to the first draft problems - my first draft is my only draft. It's edited by me as I go, and beta'd chapter by chapter, and adjustments/problems discovered along the way. Frankly, I've always wondered why using an outline necessitates more than one draft - I would think all the problems would have been found while writing the outline. But that's why no one way is the best way - I could no more finish a story using an outline than you could without. I've written one using an outline and it was one of the most excruciating projects I've ever worked on. In fact, it's taken me longer than any other and I have balked at even finishing because I'm so bored with the _process_. I'm maybe eight chapters from the end and I'm seriously considering dumping the rest of the outline and just trying to enjoy finishing it.


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## Kyle R (Feb 12, 2012)

JosephB said:


> It’s not black and white. Writing without an outline ...doesn't mean you have no idea what's going to happen next.



Hey Joseph, I agree that it's not black and what. I was merely responding to what Shadow said specifically,



			
				shadowwalker said:
			
		

> It just means writing the story as you think of it, and making sure that each new scene is consistent with what's already happened



Note he didn't say "thinking of a story and then writing it", he said "writing the story as you think of it" (in other words, having no idea what's going to happen next), and then adjusting your forward progress to stay consistent with what has already been written.



			
				JosephB said:
			
		

> If you prefer your working method – fine, but you’re making a ton of assumptions – mostly based on underestimating what other people are capable of doing.



I'm not implying that disregarding an outline points to weaknesses in the writer's abilities. I was pointing out how not knowing the story until you write it can lead to difficulties in with cohesion, pacing, and the structure of the piece as a whole.

If you don't know the piece as a whole, you can't structure what you have written in relation to the whole (because no whole exists yet). This could yield wonderful results, or it could be disastrous. In the middle range, it might require a total deconstruction and re-writing of the first draft (which is part of the reason I lean towards an outline, to remove the possibility of that step).

I find it's much easier to look at your list of scenes and consider the progress and impact of each scene, looking at the whole perspective, from beginning to end. You can choose which scenes to omit, which ones to rearrange. Adjust the flow and pacing and progression of the story.. you can do all these things with an outline before you begin to write.

But if you're making it up as you go, you don't have the option of doing this. You're stuck with what you have written, and your approach is to build upon it, adjusting backwards as you go.

I don't believe any method is "better" than the other, but I feel outlining is, for me, the more efficient approach. Some writers, like shadowwalker and I'm guessing yourself, may be more capable improvising and adjusting as they go. That's great. I don't intend to devalue that. I'm simply pointing out the reasons why I prefer outlining.



			
				shadowwalker said:
			
		

> There is nothing in your list that is guaranteed to be 'solved' with an outline. My character says something or does something and I'm thinking, what are the possible consequences? After brainstorming on that for a while, I know whether or not foreshadowing is necessary or even wanted. Character changing? Sure. Depending on what happens to them and again - what the consequences could be.



I believe a good, well made outline should solve all those problems : ) All that thinking you mentioned is what I do during the outline process.

Writing a full-length, several-hundred-page novel is hard enough as it is. I'd like to remove all uncertainties and hanging questions before endeavering the several months (or however much time it would take) to write the actual work, so I can focus on presenting the story as best as possible, rather than attempting to figure out the story at the same time. You know?

Again, I'm not discounting your approach, I'm just pointing out why I prefer outlining.

Anywho, I've heard your reasons why you don't like writing _with_ an outline -- and I consider them good reasons -- but I'd like to hear what it is you prefer about writing without one.

I get the "cons" of outlining.

But what are the "pros" of freestyling? I think it would add an interesting slant to our discussion.

Cheers


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## Sam (Feb 12, 2012)

The pros? 

While you're spending months writing the outline, I have almost written the novel.


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## Jamie (Feb 12, 2012)

I have my entire story in my head, pretty much, but a couple of days ago I decided to outline it all in Excel, writing down the chapter titles and brief outline of what happens in each one. It's helped immensely.

The main benefit, for me, is that I can start writing a new chapter whenever I get stuck where I am. In fact, I did that today. I have chapters one and two written, started chapter three, became stuck, so started chapter five because I know it's a fun one. Helped me get my focus back on what happens before it as I wrote.

So, all in all, I would suggest having one.


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## shadowwalker (Feb 12, 2012)

Pros:

I don't get bored, at least not in the long run; ie, it's not 'old' before I actually start the story.

Closely related, it keeps me engaged. I have to be constantly thinking of the story, what's happened, what could happen, what can't happen, do I really want it to move in that direction, etc etc

I don't have to worry about it sounding artificial or forced - ie, I need to get from point A in the outline to point B, somehow, some way. What happens happens because it should, not because that's what I planned.

I don't have to rewrite large chunks or start fresh because what looked good in the outline looks horrid in the story, or because I suddenly find that 'thing' I forgot in the outline.

Time - I'm writing the story, not the outline.

If I find a new way to go, I can go there and not have to rewrite the outline. I can be more spontaneous. 

I don't have to try and figure out what to research until I need to. Something comes up, I do the research, see if it will really work or if I need to something else - or how I need to adjust my story so it will, and move on.

My characters develop along with the story. I don't have to worry that how I wanted a character to end up doesn't work.

Basically, I have no restraints/constraints other than what I've already written. The story can go where it needs to 'naturally', rather than based on pre-conceived ideas.

But again - these are what *I *consider pros (and kinda off the top of my head). It's why I write the way I do. YMMV


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## JosephB (Feb 12, 2012)

KyleColorado said:


> I'm not implying that disregarding an outline points to weaknesses in the writer's abilities.



Maybe not knowingly or  intentionally. But here's why it comes across that way:



KyleColorado said:


> I'd argue that spurts of ideas that were unplanned can noticeably jar the reader.



Of course, that would only be a problem if someone can’t even recognize that something he’s written might “jar the reader.” That’s all about ability.



KyleColorado said:


> This could yield wonderful results, or it could be disastrous.



This also speaks to ability. Some people can write without backing themselves into corner – or letting it get to the point where any reconstruction is necessary. Just because you feel the need to head off disaster doesn’t mean other folks have to worry about it.



KyleColorado said:


> I was pointing out how not knowing the story until you write it can lead to difficulties in with cohesion, pacing, and the structure of the piece as a whole.



Again, you’re making the assumption that the writer will have trouble recognizing and heading off difficulties as he’s writing -- or until he’s so far into it that he has to circle back and fix things. 

If you think it's more efficient to write with an outline -- great. But a lot of people simply aren't all that concerned about avoiding rewrites or backtracking or "disasters" and don't really need an outline to avoid them.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Feb 13, 2012)

Sam W said:


> The pros?
> 
> While you're spending months writing the outline, I have almost written the novel.



And then rewriting and rewriting it.  Earlier, someone (shadowwalker, I think) wondered why using an outline would require more than one draft, and I definitely see where he's coming from.  I've written 29 of 33 chapters of my (outline-driven) novel, and while it's surely not perfect, it reads very much like a finished work.  I'm going to run through it after I'm done to clean up dialogue and descriptors and such, but I don't see the story itself changing at all.

I suppose it all boils down to how you want to allocate your time.  Do you want to take the time to plan first and then write the novel in one go? Or do you want to write by the seat of your pants, checking and rechecking as you go (and possibly rewriting) until it's the same quality? Ultimately, I expect about the same amount of time is spent on each.

It takes time to outline, sure.  But once you DO outline, writing the chapters is a breeze - a one-and-done affair.  I have trouble believe the same would be true without an outline, unless you're some sort of writing savant.


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## Sam (Feb 13, 2012)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> And then rewriting and rewriting it.  Earlier, someone (shadowwalker, I think) wondered why using an outline would require more than one draft, and I definitely see where he's coming from.  I've written 29 of 33 chapters of my (outline-driven) novel, and while it's surely not perfect, it reads very much like a finished work.  I'm going to run through it after I'm done to clean up dialogue and descriptors and such, but I don't see the story itself changing at all.
> 
> 
> I suppose it all boils down to how you want to allocate your time.  Do you want to take the time to plan first and then write the novel in one go? Or do you want to write by the seat of your pants, checking and rechecking as you go (and possibly rewriting) until it's the same quality? Ultimately, I expect about the same amount of time is spent on each.
> ...



I don't need to rewrite it. 

There's this ill-conceived  notion that by refraining from outlining means that a novel will be an  incoherent mess. That is complete and utter nonsense. I write without an  outline and none of my novels have ever gone so far off the reservation that I had to 'rein them in' or spent months re-writing or editing. It's much easier for me to write it when I don't know what's going to happen. It's more of a challenge, therefore more exciting, and ultimately there's less of a chance that I'll get bored. 

By the way, I write novels in one go without an outline, and it is the same quality as anything I would write after planning. To say otherwise is quite inane. It's like people saying writing fast equates to writing bad. Claptrap. If you're a good writer, it doesn't matter a damn how you write. You will produce quality.


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## Kyle R (Feb 13, 2012)

I believe Gamer acknowledged your type in his post, Sam. 



			
				Sam W said:
			
		

> I write novels in one go without an outline





			
				Gamer_2k4 said:
			
		

> you're some sort of writing savant.


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## Eliot_Twist (Feb 13, 2012)

I would suppose it depends on the story.

I'm playing with a story based on an idea I've played around for years - a guideline for ruling Hell. I wrote out the rules, polished them down to ten, ordered them in such a way that it's almost like a "How to", and then started writing bits and pieces. I know I have exactly ten chapters to work with. I worked with the first chapter, the second is odd, and I'm not sure what to do with it, but I went onto the third. The I went ahead and skipped to the last chapter and wrote some of that. I'm probably writing horrendously, not exactly keeping track of continuity and such, but I figure that a rough draft is better than no draft.


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## Sam (Feb 13, 2012)

KyleColorado said:


> I believe Gamer acknowledged your type in his post, Sam.



I wouldn't be as egotistical to assume anything of the sort, Kyle, but thanks. 

The point being, however, that making assumptions about outlining or lack thereof is pointless.


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## Rustgold (Feb 13, 2012)

If you can write the perfect scene right this instant, why would you stuff it up by insisting you do a snowflake outline.
If you're staring at a white screen for hours on end because you can't get things right in your head, why wouldn't you try sorting things out with an outline.

I know I personally should outline more.  However I have pieces _(which are yet to see the light of day)_ which were perfect one shot write and tidy up jobs (with no outline).  Both methods have value, and enforcing absolutes on yourself only risks losing opportunities to create works of art.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Feb 13, 2012)

Eliot_Twist said:


> I'm playing with a story based on an idea I've played around for years - a guideline for ruling Hell. I wrote out the rules, polished them down to ten, ordered them in such a way that it's almost like a "How to", and then started writing bits and pieces. I know I have exactly ten chapters to work with. I worked with the first chapter, the second is odd, and I'm not sure what to do with it, but I went onto the third. The I went ahead and skipped to the last chapter and wrote some of that. I'm probably writing horrendously, not exactly keeping track of continuity and such, but I figure that a rough draft is better than no draft.









In all seriousness, a rough draft is infinitely better than no draft at all.  Still, I couldn't get over how fitting this seemed.


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## shadowwalker (Feb 13, 2012)

Sam W said:


> I don't need to rewrite it.



Same here. I edit as I go, chapters are beta'd as they're completed, I edit/rewrite that part, and then move on. When it's completed, I go directly to the polishing stage. Done. Again - writing without an outline does not mean chaos.


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## KarlR (Feb 13, 2012)

Hey Sam, what's the chance we can get this move to 'Debate?'


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## Elena Andrews (Feb 13, 2012)

I've never really used an outline in the traditional sense. I've taken notes and done some rough drafts but not really an outline person


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## Sam (Feb 13, 2012)

There really is nothing to debate, Karl. Whether to use an outline or not is entirely up to the author. 

I find it interesting that people believe not outlining equates to chaos, based solely on the fact that their experience with it has led them to this decision. The approach which didn't work for you (generic) might instead work for the person whose creativity is better suited to doing it that way, i.e. me. 

As a point of interest, I wrote an entire novel without the first clue as to how it would end. It was only when I wrote the last chapter that it came to me. It made perfect sense with what had happened throughout the novel. Nothing was incoherent. 

People who don't outline tend to discover that an idea they wrote in chapter eight, which seemed incongruous at the time, is explained perfectly in a scene twenty chapters down the line. I've had these moments several times. One of the best endings I've ever written, for example, was borne some ninety chapters earlier in a restaurant in Russia. 

In point of fact, Lee Child is a best-selling author of over 20 thrillers. He has admitted, in many interviews, that he doesn't know what his next sentence will be. The moral? Outlining isn't for everyone. If Child can do without them and become a world-renowned thriller author, who's to say we can't either?


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## Terry D (Feb 13, 2012)

Stephen King doesn't outline.  He relates the process of writing a novel to archaeology, saying that he starts off with a bit of story sticking up out of the ground and starts to dig, uncovering it as he goes.

For myself, my books always start out as a collection of scenes in my head, which I then jot down in three, or four word phrases in a notebook.  Things like: (Kreider gets frustrated) and (Gabriel starts to dig), or (Eddie dies).  Later I draw lines between the scenes to indicate the flow.  Sometimes I have an idea of what the scene will entail, but rarely does it get born the way I envisioned.  I never hesitate to delete, add, or change scenes as the story demands.


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## Kyle R (Feb 13, 2012)

Terry D said:


> Stephen King doesn't outline.  He relates the process of writing a novel to archaeology, saying that he starts off with a bit of story sticking up out of the ground and starts to dig, uncovering it as he goes.



I remember reading something similar:



			
				The First Five Pages said:
			
		

> Stephen King describes seeing his first draft as "an alien relic bought at a junk-shop or yard sale where you can hardly remember stopping."



Though, I interpreted it as him saying his first draft is lousy, and he needs extensive revisions and rewriting done to it before it resembles a story. Hah! Rewriting? That King. What an amateur! (kidding, of course)

Your approach sounds like a mix between outlining and freestyling, Terry. You are like a hybrid.


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## Terry D (Feb 13, 2012)

In his book, _On Writing_, he shows a fairly extensive segment from one of his stories before editing, then shows the edited text.  It is an interesting exercise.  I thought his first draft looked pretty darned good . . . I have soooo much work to do . . .


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## Elena Andrews (Feb 14, 2012)

Sam W said:


> There really is nothing to debate, Karl. *Whether to use an outline or not is entirely up to the author.*
> 
> I find it interesting that people believe not outlining equates to chaos, based solely on the fact that their experience with it has led them to this decision.* The approach which didn't work for you (generic) might instead work for the person whose creativity is better suited to doing it that way, i.e. me*.
> 
> ...



I think that's the key, there. It's a personal experience. Some people like outlines, others don't. Some like writing in the morning, others at night. Some need the background sounds of a TV or radio but I find it distracting. You have to do what makes you feel comfortable


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## Mystery (Feb 16, 2012)

If you aren't one of the irritating few who think extremely analytically and logically/in series then yes, an outline is essential.

If, on the other hand, you are like me, an outline isn't essential but recommended. Nothing solidifies thought more than action, and writing it down is action.


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## kevinbgwrites (Feb 16, 2012)

I used the technique listed here: http://www.writingforums.com/hint-t...ially-if-using-multiple-povs.html#post1504718
to unlock an entire new look on my story. With a short book that is not very strict I don't think you need one. Look at the gunslinger by stephen king. Something like that you can easily make up as you go if you do it right. For an intricate epic fantasy however, I need a guide for myself.


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## DyingAtheist (Feb 19, 2012)

Personally I like having each chapter roughly planned out, so I'm always aware of where the story is going and I know how to set up the chapter I'm writing for the next one.
However, I tend to deviate fairly heavily from the plan, which is fine, I just like having a basic framework to bounce off.


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## namesake (Feb 28, 2012)

I think it is essential in the sense you can test what ideas work and what does work. Pre-writing can be better but you better not get writers block that often, that way you can finish a novel.


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## Newman (Mar 19, 2012)

Gisele9 said:


> I have started a novel. I started writing chapter 1 and after 15 or so pages of text that I had polished and rewrote etc, I got a bit stuck. Then I thought maybe I needed to know what happens all along the way, so I gave titles to the whole story and wrote a summary of what happens in the whole book up until the end.
> 
> So now technically I can just open a chapter and start writing there when I am stuck with other parts of it. Is having an outline a good idea with a novel? Are there reasons why you shouldn't break everything down that way?



There are two camps and they regularly go to war with each other. I belong to the outline camp - can't see how you can work without one. The other camp (I call it the random camp) believes you just sit down and start writing and a great story will simply emerge (madness).


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## Jon M (Mar 19, 2012)

I prefer the no pants approach. To clarify, this means you sit down to write with no pants on.


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## shadowwalker (Mar 19, 2012)

Newman said:


> There are two camps and they regularly go to war with each other. I belong to the outline camp - can't see how you can work without one. The other camp (I call it the random camp) believes you just sit down and start writing and a great story will simply emerge (madness).



An example of why they go to war... #-o


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 19, 2012)

I am reminded of a story my father told about a school inspector who kept asking a colleague of his who taught physics where his syllabus was, after several times of asking he said "Proffessor Gailin, I must insist, where is your syllabus". The proffessor tapped his head and replied "In there young man, in there." To me there is something faintly ridiculous about writing an outline for your own reference, if I can write it as an outline why not as a first copy?


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## JosephB (Mar 19, 2012)

Well, I've learned that if people don't use outlines, or see the need for them, it's nearly impossible to describe how and why they're used. For me a lot of it has to do with the fact that I'm going to think ahead and work out details regardless of whether or not I'm sitting at the computer writing. The outline allows me to quickly capture those ideas. Maybe you can, but I can't remember every idea that pops into my head. And if I'm having trouble with something, I can move on to something else -- I don't have to write chronologically. Just because you don't get how other people work doesn't make it "ridiculous."


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## shadowwalker (Mar 19, 2012)

JosephB said:


> Just because you don't get how other people work doesn't make it "ridiculous."



Precisely.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 20, 2012)

I really don't equate "To me there is something faintly ridiculous ..." with calling the way others work 'ridiculous'. It would be ridiculous if I did it, not very ridiculous, only faintly.


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## Potty (Mar 20, 2012)

I have a "In the event of my death" plan in that, should I die someone needs to finish off my masterbits! I write an outline for both my own reference but also for the person who takes over from me to be able to finish the story the way I intended.


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## Kyle R (Mar 20, 2012)

Terry D said:
			
		

> Stephen King doesn't outline



I have to point out, as a book on story structuring I just read mentioned this..

Experienced authors like Stephen King and such already have a working understanding of how they want their own stories to develop.. They've learned, practiced, and honed their story writing over years and perhaps hundreds of finished novels into a skillset that they can intuitively grasp without pre-planning (if desired).

But for someone less experienced (at the extreme, someone who has never even written a novel before), attempting to do as Stephen King does is not likely to produce the same results. He's working with a grasp of story structure and progression that many novelists don't yet have.

An outline can help put their story in perspective, from beginning to end, to see if it moves satisfyingly forward with a resonating conclusion..

Would you film a movie without a movie script?  I suppose you could with just a premise (Blair Witch Project), but most production companies won't pay you to start filming until you have a script written before hand that they can approve (an outline to judge the competency of the story), or if you're a big name director who's already proven himself (a successful author, like Stephen King or James Patterson, who publishers throw money at like rice at a wedding).

[video=youtube;xCYr_PTnyEQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCYr_PTnyEQ[/video]


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## shadowwalker (Mar 20, 2012)

And who is to say that the scriptwriter used an outline in the first place? 

Some beginners need to use an outline, and may find that that's the way they work best. Others may start with an outline and later decide they don't need one. And others (such as myself) have never used an outline successfully and manage just fine without one. One should never use any method because someone else says you _should_. You should try various methods and use the one (or combination of several) which allows you to finish the book and be happy with it.


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## Sam (Mar 20, 2012)

shadowwalker said:


> And who is to say that the scriptwriter used an outline in the first place?
> 
> Some beginners need to use an outline, and may find that that's the way they work best. Others may start with an outline and later decide they don't need one. And others (such as myself) have never used an outline successfully and manage just fine without one. One should never use any method because someone else says you _should_. You should try various methods and use the one (or combination of several) which allows you to finish the book and be happy with it.



Exactly. 



			
				KyleColorado said:
			
		

> I have to point out, as a book on story structuring I just read mentioned this..
> 
> Experienced authors like Stephen King and such already have a working  understanding of how they want their own stories to develop.. They've  learned, practiced, and honed their story writing over years and perhaps  hundreds of finished novels into a skillset that they can intuitively  grasp without pre-planning (if desired).
> 
> ...



I started my first novel without an outline and haven't used one since. It works for me. It may not work for you. It's only through trial and error that you'll find that out. 

A movie script is an entirely different premise than a novel. You need only look at the number of woeful novels-to-movies produced down through the years to figure that out. Different kettle of fish altogether.


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## Newman (Mar 20, 2012)

Everybody outlines, Everybody. Bar none. Including you Mr/s "i'm too cool for rules."

If you don't do it consciously, you do it subconsciously. Somewhere in the back of your head your framing around three acts, the problems at the beginning and the big finale at the end.


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## shadowwalker (Mar 20, 2012)

Newman said:


> Everybody outlines, Everybody. Bar none. Including you Mr/s "i'm too cool for rules."
> 
> If you don't do it consciously, you do it subconsciously. Somewhere in the back of your head your framing around three acts, the problems at the beginning and the big finale at the end.



If it makes you feel better believing that... 

Although - since when did outlining become a rule? Did I turn my back for a second there?


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## JosephB (Mar 20, 2012)

Newman said:


> Everybody outlines, Everybody. Bar none. Including you Mr/s "i'm too cool for rules."
> 
> If you don't do it consciously, you do it subconsciously. Somewhere in the back of your head your framing around three acts, the problems at the beginning and the big finale at the end.



The conscious part is true to a degree. Somewhat dubious that anyone does a lot planing "subconsciously" and I don' think there's any way to know that. Regardless, writing without an outline is a different working method -- and not the same as actually writing it out and adding different levels of detail.


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## Sam (Mar 21, 2012)

Newman said:


> Everybody outlines, Everybody. Bar none. Including you Mr/s "i'm too cool for rules."
> 
> If you don't do it consciously, you do it subconsciously. Somewhere in the back of your head your framing around three acts, the problems at the beginning and the big finale at the end.



That's not an outline. That's thinking about where the story will lead. An outline is detailing every chapter before you sit down to write.


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## Newman (Mar 21, 2012)

Sam W said:


> That's not an outline. That's thinking about where the story will lead. An outline is detailing every chapter before you sit down to write.



Just extrapolate and it becomes outlining. You're figuring out where chapter 1 will lead, chapter 2, act 1, act 2 and so on.

I am on the same page as this gal here: Top 12 Benefits of Outlining Your Novel


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## Sam (Mar 21, 2012)

That's an interesting (not) post. 

1. "You'll write faster" ~ Who's 'you'? How do you know how fast I write, or what will make me write slower or faster? I've written a 250K novel in four months without an outline, so I treat that titbit as preposterous. 

2. "It gives you a sense of direction" ~ So, let me guess, she's of the same belief as many people who think not outlining means you write all willy-nilly? Here's the thing; it doesn't.  

3. "You'll save time on editing" ~ Good writing is not predicated on whether or not you've outlined. That's complete rubbish. If you're a good writer, the quality of your won't change because you haven't spent seven months outlining. 

9. "There's less chance of writer's block" ~ There's less chance of that anyway, since I don't believe in it. 

10. "You'll more likely get the structure right the first time" ~ I very rarely have to change what I've written. Occasionally a chapter will go, but few and far between. 

11. "It helps with natural pacing". Now there's an oxymoron. If it's natural, it can't have been created by an outline, can it? 

Her list is great for people who want to outline. I don't; and I don't appreciate being lectured or harangued into doing it. There is no rule that says you must. As I said before, I've never outlined in my life. I have a published novel which I wrote without any outline and which needed only minor edits before it was ready to be submitted to publishing houses. If you want to edit, be my guest. I'll stick with the way which has worked for me for going on fifteen years.


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## Kyle R (Mar 21, 2012)

I believe, for the average writer, outlining is a smart choice. It's, of course, not a necessity, but if you're aspiring to be published or possibly looking to make a career out of writing novels, embracing outlining is a way of reducing the chance of "failure" (as Phillistine puts it).

It's all well and good if you're like Sam W or ShadowWalker and you can pound out novels that publish with very little edits or modifications required. That's amazing (Really! No sarcasm intended. It really does astound me, and is quite inspirational).

However, what about the others who put in all the months (perhaps years) of writing a novel only to find the work looking back at them is an unpublishable heap of garbage? What if there were a method to save them all the time and frustration and enable them to gauge the competency of their story without having to go through all the leg-work, first?

An outline can take anywhere from a day to a few months, depending on how in-depth and perfectionistic the outliner wants to be.. But the great thing about it is, you can change it, rearrange it, remove whole sections and add whole new ones, with relatively minimal effort.

Just last night, while thinking of my novel outline, I changed the _entire _Third Act, as well as the novel's antagonist. I completely removed the Antagonist and added a new one. A virtual 180 degree turn of the story. I'm glad I did that during the outlining process, because deleting 40,000 words or so (which I might have labored over for several months) and starting again would have been a nightmare for me had I written it out in draft form. I might have even chosen NOT to change it simply because I didn't want to go through all the extra work. Doing so also meant I backtracked through the Second and First Acts and changed things there as well. This took me only a few minutes of time (as opposed to several months, or possibly even years! *gasp*)

In all, I do believe you should definately go with whatever works for you. But I see very few, if any, flaws in the outlining approach, when done efficiently. Efficiently, of course, is open for interpretation, but by that I mean the outline is a tool used to enhance productivity and aide in story creation, just as a calculator is used to distill complex mathematical equations into simple answers without going through the lengthy arithmetic by longhand.

I believe outlining can save a lot of time and potentially aimless wandering. Some authors excell at aimless wandering, and have a unique ability to hone that wandering into a compelling and well-structured story. But I think they have a stronger grasp of both story structure, and writing mechanics, than they give themselves (or others) credit for.

Like a natural athlete, these writers can hit the ball, jump the high bar, and run the marathon without really claiming to need any training or specific diet. Maybe they don't, or maybe their lifestyle is naturally vigorous and leads them to physically excel as a result.

But how about the couch potato, or the 40+ hour workweek, or the single mother, or other circumstances? Likely they don't have the same level of writing strength, though their desire to write a novel may still be passionate. For them I would wholeheartedly recommend at least _considering_ the outline approach, and taking the time to learn (maybe even taking classes or workshops) successful outlining and story-structuring methods.

Otherwise it can, and often does, end up like the experience of the OP. I had a similar experience with my first novel attempt, too.. I had a few characters, and a setting, and a general idea of a knockout ending. So then I sat down enthusiastically to write it, with no real concept of story structuring, planning, or even what differentiates a good story from a bad story. I gave up after two chapters, in frustration and a feeling of being hopelessly lost and adrift. The good instructors can, in my opinion, encompass all these lessons in teaching how to outline appropriately and efficiently, as a tool to help, not a crutch or box to hinder..


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## Cefor (Mar 21, 2012)

Kyle, did you outline that particular response? Cause that was good writing, I applaud you.

I think it depends on how people view outlining, and what they expect to see when someone says 'outline'. I would love to find the type of outline that would work for me, but as it happens, I haven't yet... so a lot of my longer works break down and I find that only my shorter ones can be completed to a satisfactory degree.

Maybe it's the ideal story that I have in my head and how the real thing is never as awesome as that picture of it in my mind? A lot of the time, lately, I write 200 words and then stop, read what I wrote... ctrl + A, delete. An outline of what I will be writing is probably a way around that, because then it'd be easier to see how close to that ideal story it is, and then perhaps stop that snap judgement of deleting.


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## shadowwalker (Mar 21, 2012)

Yes, Kyle, outlining can be a big help to _some _writers. For others, it's the biggest pain in the kiester - and bores the heck out of us. It destroys the urge to write the actual story.

I don't know why it's so difficult to accept that outlining is just another method and will benefit some, but not all, and not _necessarily _most. It works for you - great. Working without one works for me - great. Let each writer find their own method and accept that it's _their _best way to write.


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## Terry D (Mar 23, 2012)

I don't think most new-young-inexperienced-novice-whatever writers really know what works best for them.  That's why they are new-young-inexperienced-novice-whatever.  I think most of us approach starting a novel like we approach starting any major project in our 'real' life.  If you wrote a detailed outline for a major paper in school then you will probably benefit from doing the same thing for your book.  If you tear out the bathroom first and then come up with your plan to rebuild it, then you can probably write your book on-the-fly.

I never outline short stories.  I used no outline for my one published book (but its dual story-lines were both very linear), but for my current work-in-process I have created a loose list of scenes which I know I want to include and a general sequence for them.  I don't feel bound by that list in any way.

I would say, however, that if you have a problem finishing the projects you start _sans _outline, it might be a good idea to try one.


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