# There’s a divide on this site that shouldn’t exist...



## The Backward OX (Jan 18, 2012)

There’s a divide on this site that shouldn’t exist. It’s the divide between those who post and crit in Workshop and those who post and crit in Fiction. When I look in Fiction I don’t even recognise a lot of the usernames I see there. I’m not going to put forward reasons why this divide should not exist, because someone will only howl me down. But it shouldn’t exist. The thinking people can figure out why for themselves.


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## Baron (Jan 18, 2012)

I don't see what you're ranting about.  People post where they want to.  If they choose fiction, fine; if they choose the workshop, that's fine too.


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## philistine (Jan 18, 2012)

Perhaps a virtual Mason-Dixon line is in order?


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## The Backward OX (Jan 18, 2012)

Baron said:


> I don't see what you're ranting about. People post where they want to. If they choose fiction, fine; if they choose the workshop, that's fine too.


You know as well as I do the meaning of the word 'divide' used as a noun. There are two groups of people who mostly don't know of each other's existence. If those two groups mingled it can only benefit both.


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## Baron (Jan 18, 2012)

People are free to browse the forums and choose where they want to post, Edna.  I've no doubt there are reasons why some feel more comfortable on the fiction boards, just as the publishing first rights issue is a major reason certain members prefer the workshop.  In reality, and at risk of causing offense, I think the Workshop is better suited to those who believe their work to be at a publishable standard.  If some of those who congregate there wish to browse the fiction boards and offer encouragement where it's deserved, nobody will object.


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## garza (Jan 18, 2012)

My browsing for reading is in the poetry, fiction, and non-fiction boards, both for reading pleasure and for finding suitable material for the Newsletter. I don't offer much criticism as I don't feel qualified. That's something I plan to change. Not that I can make myself more qualified, but I can begin to offer more comment. 

I don't look in the Workshop. Perhaps I should, for the enjoyment of reading the better material that's there. But I would certainly be uncomfortable offering any comment in the Workshop. It would not be appropriate.

There is a natural divide that's quite understandable. People here are, as the Captain points out, free to read and comment where they choose, and some of us will be more comfortable on one side of the divide, and some more comfortable on the other.


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## justbishop (Jan 18, 2012)

I honestly didn't realize that there was a difference between the genre boards and Workshop (other than the fact that Workshop was a bit more read restricted). I hope no one took me as arrogant when I asked if my post in Children's/YA fiction should have gone into Workshop instead. I didn't know that Workshop was generally considered a place to post "better" stuff.

And I'm sure that the fact that I haven't provided much feedback on others' works is the reason that my own has received none, but I also feel woefully unqualified to be criticizing what everyone else has written


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## garza (Jan 18, 2012)

justbishop - It's been my understanding that material posted in Workshop is material deemed about ready for submission to publishers, and thus a cut above the ordinary. 

And it's true that those who do not comment tend not to get comments. Join me in making an effort to post more responses in the poetry, fiction, and non-fiction boards. I'm going to start that today.


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## qwertyman (Jan 18, 2012)

There is no elitism in the Workshop, it's just members only. 

This Forum relies on new members, the way to attract new members is by catching the interest of visitors. Fiction allows visitors a chance to see work which they wouldn't do if Workshop were the only place to exhibit.

I repeat there is no elitism in Workshop,... but personally I wouldn't be seen dead in Fiction (snigger).


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## The Backward OX (Jan 18, 2012)

garza said:


> It's been my understanding that material posted in Workshop is material deemed about ready for submission to publishers, and thus a cut above the ordinary.



There's far too much deeming going on around here.


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## Baron (Jan 18, 2012)

If the two were combined into one forum then it would mean that fiction would be a closed board to non-members.  That would not be helpful to the site in any way for the reasons qwerty has given.


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## The Backward OX (Jan 18, 2012)

Okay, I was wrong. Delete the thread.


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## Baron (Jan 18, 2012)

If the thread helps people to understand why the two sections exist then it's worth keeping, Edna.


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## garza (Jan 18, 2012)

The two sections are needed, without question. But the statement 'There is no elitism in the Workshop, it's just members only' provided me with my laugh of the day.


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## dale (Jan 18, 2012)

lol. just goes to show how little i knew about the writing politics of the forum.
i always post in the workshop because i thought myself to be an amateur in need
of criticism to improve. i had know idea i was mingling with the elite in there.


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## Jon M (Jan 18, 2012)

There's a divide between the serious authors who spend time and energy on research and the craft of the story and the people who just chuck stuff online without even so much as a spellcheck?

NO WAI


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## garza (Jan 18, 2012)

That's not the divide under discussion. The divide under discussion is between Writing Workshop, a closed board for members only, and the Fiction and Non-Fiction boards, which are open for anyone to read.

I've no idea what the situation is in Workshop, but in Fiction and Non-Fiction the divide you speak of is certainly in evidence, as it is in the Lounge, Debate, and sometimes in Writing Discussion.


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## philistine (Jan 18, 2012)

johnM said:


> There's a divide between the serious authors who spend time and energy on research and the craft of the story and the people who just chuck stuff online without even so much as a spellcheck?
> 
> NO WAI



I thought telling the truth was tantamount to forum etiquette? Cease this immediately!


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## Bilston Blue (Jan 18, 2012)

> There's a divide between the serious authors who spend time and energy on research and the craft of the story and the people who just chuck stuff online without even so much as a spellcheck?



I'd be quite happy to police a clampdown on poor spelling. A 24 hour infraction for each mis-spelled word should give the culprits time enough to devour a dictionary. In fact, if many people on the site were to spend half the time reading the dictionary as they did reading some of the pap out there, they might find more people willing to read their work. Same goes for formatting.

Personally, the people who provide the feedback from which I get most out of tend to frequent the forums, and as a reader I find the fiction in the workshop more readable.


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## Sam (Jan 18, 2012)

garza said:


> I've no idea what the situation is in Workshop, but in Fiction and Non-Fiction the divide you speak of is certainly in evidence, as it is in the Lounge, Debate, and sometimes in Writing Discussion.



In what way? I ask not because I'm disputing your claim but because I'm curious. 

If people want to post in the Fiction section, they can feel free to do so. Likewise, if they'd like to share their work in the Writers' Workshop, they're welcome to. Is it true that some of the 'big hitters' post in the latter? Yes, but I don't think it's because they're more serious about their writing than those who post in Fiction. Instead, it may have something to do with the disclaimer in the WW: "For writers in search of serious critique". Fledgling writers mightn't have the thick skin that experienced ones do. They mightn't want their work to be ripped apart at the first time of asking, so they post in the next best place.


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## bazz cargo (Jan 18, 2012)

_Personally, the people who provide the feedback from which I get most  out of tend to frequent the forums, and as a reader I find the fiction  in the workshop more readable. 						_

I now don my halo.

Xo, you have hit a nail I  have been looking at. I have no idea how I ended up putting stuff in the  workshop, or why I am allowed to continue to do so. 
The stuff in the slums, er, fiction-al place does seem to be less commented on.(My poor Granma). I have been snooping...

In  humour, poor Courtjester seems to be mugging solo. I left a 'high  there' and ended up a friend! Little does he realise the mistake he has  made!

I can understand the reluctance of some writers to cross  this divide, there is a general leap in quality. Yet from this pool of  beginners comes the next generation of talent. They need a few pointers  and a lot of practice. The dreaded word encouragement springs to my  fingers. I think the workshop is a destination most of them are aiming  for. Writer's Shangri la. 

There does seem to be a distinct lack  of ability. My own experience of how bad the educational system was, has  made me suspicious of how good it is now! 
One thing I remember clearly, the also rans got a lot less attention than the best in class.


Commenting  on someone else's work seems to be a particular problem, none of them  feel up to the job. And the idea of finding a friend who can help  bolster your fragile ego, sooth your ruffled feathers and copy your homework from is quite intimidating. 

I can only do so much, and I am stuck for a cure. At the moment nearly everyone is in the kitchen and only the uninhibited kids are in the living room dancing, very badly. 

There are rules, helpful guides, great staff and some world-class writers.  What about general etiquette? A how to? Any ideas?


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## Foxee (Jan 18, 2012)

It's not like anyone's standing at the entrance of WW with a flaming sword, though. Unless....

*goes to check*

Nope. No flaming sword. Anyone can go in. We're not even allowed to flame on this forum, nothing to be afraid of.


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## The Backward OX (Jan 18, 2012)

dale said:


> lol. just goes to show how little i knew about the writing politics of the forum.
> i always post in the workshop because i thought myself to be an amateur in need
> of criticism to improve. i had know idea i was mingling with the elite in there.



If you don’t tell them they are, I won’t.

You have no idea of some of the pithy remarks I write, then run past my tame editor before posting – stuff like _“You have no need of my hackneyed remarks saying you write well.”_ She mostly says, ‘No, don’t say that, it’s tactless towards both the writer and the critters,’ and so they never see the light of day.


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## Kyle R (Jan 18, 2012)

I stick mainly to the Workshop because I know most of the regulars, and I've learned a lot from the valuable feedback given there.

I also appreciate the privacy for first publishing rights.


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## garza (Jan 18, 2012)

Sam - Out among the proletariat there is a wide range of abilities between the journeymen skilled in the craft of putting one word after another, and those for whom writing is a challenge. This mix is healthy. The apprentice can see and learn while not being intimidated. 

I don't post in Workshop because I fear being laughed down. My posts in fiction tend to get kind remarks. I've a long way to go before I'll be brave enough to cross the line, if ever. It is good for the master craftsmen to have their own snug bar.


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## Olly Buckle (Jan 18, 2012)

I always simply thought of workshop as a place where I could choose to share with members rather than the world, whether to protect rights or not. To some extent this had an opposite effect to the one that has been stated, I would tend to post things I am unsure of in the workshop. Also, as I understood workshop is for anything, not only fiction, although it is rare to see other things there.


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## Foxee (Jan 18, 2012)

garza said:


> Sam - Out among the proletariat there is a wide range of abilities between the journeymen skilled in the craft of putting one word after another, and those for whom writing is a challenge. This mix is healthy. The apprentice can see and learn while not being intimidated.
> 
> I don't post in Workshop because I fear being laughed down. My posts in fiction tend to get kind remarks. I've a long way to go before I'll be brave enough to cross the line, if ever. It is good for the master craftsmen to have their own snug bar.


You shouldn't worry about this, Garza. First rights protection is the only reason that it's 'members only'...which means WF members...which means you. Writing is a challenge for me and when I actually get something to post for crit again I'll be posting in WW. Why? Because I might as well protect it just in case it turns into something good.

Honestly, there's no reason for intimidation. I had no idea it existed with this.


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## Bilston Blue (Jan 18, 2012)

Garza, I've read snippets of things you've posted (fiction, I mean), and being laughed down is the last thing that will happen to your work. You've said in the past you lack imagination, and it comes across that you don't have confidence in your fiction, but let others go some way towards convincing you of its merits.

On the other hand, it may be that you're really honing your craft before you unleash it on an unsuspecting public. Maybe there are others who could follow that lead.


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## garza (Jan 18, 2012)

I'm trying to learn. A half century and more of news flashes, op-ed essays, and policy papers has not prepared me for writing fiction. Perhaps if I'd ever helped prepare a government budget...


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## Kyle R (Jan 18, 2012)

garza said:
			
		

> I'm trying to learn. A half century and more of news flashes, op-ed essays, and policy papers has not prepared me for writing fiction.



Fiction is just a tool to generate feelings in your reader, without the constriction of realism or fact.

Once you figure that out, the rest is just technique and mechanics, from which your years of experience with writing have probably given you a very solid foundation.


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## IanMGSmith (Jan 18, 2012)

Interesting thread, thanks Ox.


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## The Backward OX (Jan 18, 2012)

Bilston Blue said:


> I'd be quite happy to police a clampdown on poor spelling. A 24 hour infraction for each mis-spelled word should give the culprits time enough to devour a dictionary.


That'd be like Cnut or Canute, the Danish king of England, attempting to hold back the tide.


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## garza (Jan 18, 2012)

Kyle - Realism is all I know. I don't mind changing the facts to tell a story, but I only know how to ground the story in reality. The excerpts from _Seven Miles on a Dirt Road_ and _A Pinch of Salt _that I've posted here, along with flash fiction like 'A Man Called Changsai' and the new piece 'The Fugitive', are not factual but they are firmly grounded in reality. The characters are the kinds of people I have known, the places are like places I've been, and the events would not be out of place in the real world. 

I know nothing about 'generating feelings' in readers. If that is a necessary ingredient, then probably I should forget trying to write fiction and be satisfied reading it.


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## Grape Juice Vampire (Jan 18, 2012)

I posted in the fiction because I wanted to know if I was just fooling myself. What I posted has been received well so I'm gonna post in the workshop from now on. I can take criticism, my worry was that my story at its base was not good enough. I don't mind others seeing my work, i want them to, but now that i am serious about publishing and the like i won't be posting anymore of it to fiction. I might post other stuff though. Though i have to admit i'm worried i made a mistake now.

Garza, i think you can write fiction. The beauty of it is, you can ground it in reality, then tweak the facts to fit the story/ worlds reality. It's what I'm doing for my book. For example plant growth. I've studied it, added a few things that fit in the story world and voila, something that fits and makes sense even being a fantasy setting. As for generating feelings in readers, you already know how. Proper word use and understanding of the piece is really all you need, and having been a journalist you know better than most by dealing with real stuff.


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## The Backward OX (Jan 18, 2012)

garza –

Stop worrying about ‘generating feelings in readers’. The term is both too strong and too vague. Just because Kyle says it's so doesn't necessarily make it so. All readers are different. Your ‘The Fugitive’ generated no noticeable feelings in me, but I still enjoyed the story.

Furthermore, some readers will be affected by a particular story, others not at all.


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## Foxee (Jan 18, 2012)

garza said:


> I know nothing about 'generating feelings' in readers. If that is a necessary ingredient, then probably I should forget trying to write fiction and be satisfied reading it.


Honestly, Garza. Kyle's just using writerspeak and you're upsnooting it to make a point. Yes, you do 'generate feelings' if you tell someone a factual story. I see or hear news stories that bring me to tears...it's not flowery prose or fiction but it is truth and that's what cuts.


> Perhaps if I'd ever helped prepare a government budget...


I bet that would engender some emotions in readers...such as rage, anxiety, and a desire to reach for pitchforks and torches.


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## Kyle R (Jan 18, 2012)

garza said:


> Kyle - Realism is all I know. I don't mind changing the facts to tell a story, but I only know how to ground the story in reality. The excerpts from _Seven Miles on a Dirt Road_ and _A Pinch of Salt _that I've posted here, along with flash fiction like 'A Man Called Changsai' and the new piece 'The Fugitive', are not factual but they are firmly grounded in reality. The characters are the kinds of people I have known, the places are like places I've been, and the events would not be out of place in the real world.



Sounds like good fiction to me!

I didn't mean to imply that fiction equates to unrealistic stories. I simply meant that there are no restrictions -- no citing sources required, no actual events that need referring to.

You have the freedom to create your own realities. How you create them (based on fact or fantasy) is completely up to you.

And most successful fiction authors I've read have their stories based on their past experiences, and on what they know, exactly as how you've described your own writing process. Stephen King always seems to write about the places he grew up in. Ray Bradbury writes about people he's met or known. Toni Morrison comments on the african-american identity in much of her work. etc..etc..



			
				garza said:
			
		

> I know nothing about 'generating feelings' in readers. If that is a necessary ingredient, then probably I should forget trying to write fiction and be satisfied reading it.



Which would you rather read: a story, or a legal disclaimer?

Would you rather read a tale of heroism, or the ingredients label on the back of a cereal box?

If given the choice, would you rather read a sweeping adventure epic, or forty pages of binary code from a computer program (0 1 1 00 1 01 11 0 10 1010 10 101)?

What differentiates the two? It's the reward the reader receives for his time spent. The former choices are more _interesting_ because they contain an inherent promise from the writer that _things will get interesting _which translates to _you will be intrigued_, which is an extension of a promise that _you will feel something by reading this_.

The latter choices are _boring_ because they promise no emotions, just empty words and dead numbers. 

Dwight Swain can say it better than I can, so I'll let him have the floor:



			
				Dwight Swain said:
			
		

> ...feeling is the place every story starts.
> 
> Where do you find feeling? It springs from the human heart.
> 
> ...



As far as being a non-fiction writer going for fiction, to be honest that's the approach that I try to emulate in my own writing.

I try to write my story as a non-fiction writer who is detailing something that has actually happened.

Here's the first line of a fiction story I'm working on:



			
				KyleColorado said:
			
		

> Jardy Shaugh and her husband Mick were riding along in their beat-up Jeep Grand Cherokee, jostling through the dusty air of the wide open plains of northern Botswana, deep in the heartlands of Southern Africa.



Here I have characters who don't exist, partaking in something which never happened. But I'm writing it as a non-fiction writer does.. I'm presenting it to the reader as if it were true.

Ultimately, by that explanation, I consider the Fiction Writer and the Non-Fiction Writer to be more similar than you seem to believe they are. The only difference is the incident which the two writers are retelling.

Both are detailing a story to the reader, one they hpoe the reader will find interesting.

Where the story comes from is just a technicality, really.

I hope that encouraged you at least somewhat! :cheers:


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## garza (Jan 18, 2012)

Ah, pardon me, but that opening needs some work to sound like non-fiction. There are too many words for the amount of information. Here's how I would write it:

_Jardy Shaugh and husband Mick, in their beat-up Jeep, jostled through the dusty air of the northern Botswana plains in the heart of Southern Africa. - _26 words as opposed to 36 in the original.
Except that I wouldn't use a word like 'jostled'. More likely 'bounced'. 'her' isn't needed - redundant. What model Jeep doesn't matter and the clash of images with 'beat-up' and 'Grand Cherokee' is a minor distraction. To set a story in the south of Africa I would use a Land Rover rather than a Jeep. Jeeps are not as popular there and are harder to get parts for. 'Were riding along' are extra words that add no information. 'Heartlands' is a flowery word for which there is a good substitute - heart. If they are in the plains, then the country is wide open by definition. 

That's how a non-fiction writer describes something. Of course that's magazine, informal essay, style, and not straight news style.


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## Kyle R (Jan 18, 2012)

Oh pish posh. \\/ That's part of my first draft. I haven't even hit the backspace once on that sentence yet. Good edits, though, I appreciate them!

But my point, not my unedited writing, was what I was hoping you would address.

That you are already a fiction writer, you just happen to write about factual things.


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## MeeQ (Jan 18, 2012)

There's a divide? And here I was thinking I was the egomaniac. I always guessed the workshop as the 'unfinished' & 'in progress' thread, whilst the fiction for finished product. Silly me for being such an ignorant; never noticing such an elite group of writing friends. How could I be so naïve to the dastardly scoundrels of ‘The’ workshop. Oh well I better trot on over to the elite club and rustle some childish feathers. Because my Dad will so beat up your Dads.


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## Kyle R (Jan 18, 2012)

^ Lol.

I've always thought a similar thing; that the Workshop was for those seeking critiques (and not interested in publicity), while the Fiction boards were for those seeking publicity (and not interested in critiques).


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## Foxee (Jan 18, 2012)

For Kyle and Garza:

[video=youtube;YrE-L_Bs-Dg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrE-L_Bs-Dg[/video]


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## Kyle R (Jan 18, 2012)

Lol. *slaps forehead*


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## The Backward OX (Jan 18, 2012)

I must say I understand where MeeQ and Kyle are coming from. When I was new here I thought Workshop meant stuff in progress. That's what one does in a workshop, after all. And if people with our level of intelligence are that easily fooled, what must it be doing to _hoi polloi?_


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## Tiamat (Jan 18, 2012)

I've poked around in both forums, and I've found some good stories in both.  Though typically, if you're looking for a good read, the odds are more in your favor if you start in the Workshop.  When critiquing, I find that in the Fiction section, my critiques are usually rather long and detailed, because I find more amateurish mistakes.  In the workshop, there are a few writers whose talent far surpasses anything that I could write, which makes me feel somewhat under-qualified to offer any advice.  (*cough* Chris Miller *cough*)


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## Baron (Jan 19, 2012)

The Backward OX said:


> I must say I understand where MeeQ and Kyle are coming from. When I was new here I thought Workshop meant stuff in progress. That's what one does in a workshop, after all. And if people with our level of intelligence are that easily fooled, what must it be doing to _hoi polloi?_


I'm reminded of the often quoted conversation between Sarah Bernhardt and George Bernard Shaw.


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## garza (Jan 19, 2012)

Odd how perceptions differ. I've always assumed the fiction board is for the person wanting and needing feedback, while Workshop is for the more advanced writer who is showing material ready or nearly ready for publication. 

Kyle -I know I'm writing fiction, but I also know my fiction needs help. That's why, when I do post, I post in the Fiction board.


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## bazz cargo (Jan 19, 2012)

_Kyle - Realism is all I know. I don't mind changing the facts to tell a  story, but I only know how to ground the story in reality. The excerpts  from Seven Miles on a Dirt Road and A Pinch of Salt that  I've posted here, along with flash fiction like 'A Man Called Changsai'  and the new piece 'The Fugitive', are not factual but they are firmly  grounded in reality. The characters are the kinds of people I have  known, the places are like places I've been, and the events would not be  out of place in the real world. 
_
If only my fiction was half as good.

I like the Workshop, it is where good writers give me what I need. I like Fiction, it has a bustle and energy that eggs me on.

My biggest problem is the pain in my nuts, where I'm straddling the fence.


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## The Backward OX (Jan 19, 2012)

Oh, look, Doris, he's moved.


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## Baron (Jan 19, 2012)

The Backward OX said:


> Oh, look, Doris, he's moved.


Spot the unnecessary comma.


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## garza (Jan 19, 2012)

bazz cargo - Get a pillow before you do yourself an injury.


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