# Beauty in War



## GeeDubayou (May 6, 2014)

For quite some time, ive been having an urge to write, and i intend to get into some serious writing but to start off, ive been seeking ways to get tge blood and the ink flowing. Its been....god knows how many years since ive written anything.
I recently found some websites that offer writing prompts for inspiration, and one of them was "Find the silver lining in something ugly" what the actual title was i dont recall but that was the jist of it. 
Well....myself, i got myself really interested in that idea, so, once i get some time to myself, the writing shall commence...
This is what ill be finding the silver lining in........War.

Myself being a WWII living historian, i feel that, something as truly ugly as war is also something very beautiful. Now...once i finish writing it, i shall post it here for you all to read, and i hope you enjoy the read.


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## escorial (May 6, 2014)

interesting POV about war...


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## GeeDubayou (May 6, 2014)

escorial said:


> interesting POV about war...



Yes, it is definately interesting. Its not the death and destruction in war i find beautiful, but....the actions of men that we now call heroes, "The Greatest Generation", the acts of bravery, the last stands, etc. 
We have lots to be thankful for because of these men.


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## spartan928 (May 7, 2014)

Loads of inspiration for fiction from that era. Best of luck following your inspiration where it leads.


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## Bard_Daniel (May 7, 2014)

Ah, yes. The beauty in the nature of chaos and, furthermore, the beauty in evil. Scary stuff.


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## Plasticweld (May 7, 2014)

I think man is draw to war because it is the ultimate test or challenge. It is one thing to guess how you would respond it is another to know how you will react when everything goes wrong. While I have no experience with war, I have had time where I jumped in and others stood by and watched. I have given CPR twice, both guys died.  I have struggled to get the roof off a car looking for a trapped child. In many of the cases people stood by frozen. I have made it a personal vow to never ever "not help" in any way possible. It is a test of what you're made of, I think battle is in some ways the same, I am sure there are people here who have first hand experience with war, I would be curious as to their thoughts


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## Morkonan (May 7, 2014)

GeeDubayou said:


> ...Myself being a WWII living historian, i feel that, something as truly ugly as war is also something very beautiful. Now...once i finish writing it, i shall post it here for you all to read, and i hope you enjoy the read.



"It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it." - Robert E. Lee


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## garza (May 7, 2014)

War is also beautiful, as all who have been there know. The ugliness is seen most clearly, I believe, by the combatants because death is in their hands. I've compared notes with Viet Nam veterans who saw many of the same scenes of battle I saw, but suffered from it in a way I did not. The difference was in armament. They carried M16A1 assault rifles and were trained to kill. I carried an elderly Leica IIIf, a pocket notebook, and a pencil. I never killed anyone, or had any desire to kill anyone. I was only an observer. I saw, I wrote, I filed, I slept. The soldiers saw, they fired, they killed, they fought demons in their sleep. 

The real beauty of war is appreciated when you're shot at and missed. There is a rush beyond anything that can be described in words and well beyond the ability of any pharmaceutical preparation to emulate. There is a mindless joy, a pure delight, a desire to charge straight at that fellow who fired that burst and ram his AK47 down his throat. Great willpower is needed to shift sideways and not go over the top and straight into the line of fire. I've seen young fellows without sufficient willpower follow that surge of exhilaration and move so fast and so unexpectedly that they breached the line before being shot dead. I sincerely believe that in those last moments they knew a joy of life that few survivors would ever know. 

So proceed with your writing. The board you will want to use is either the fiction board or the writers' workshop. If you put it in the fiction board I'll see it and offer my comments.


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## Apple Ice (May 7, 2014)

War becomes a fantasy for soldiers. They train so long learning to kill and in the end it's all they want to do, that is until they get the opportunity. I have two friends in the infantry and they were both desperate to get to Afghanistan. They have dreams of grandeur and heroism and now it's been confirmed they're not going they both feel let down and less like soldiers. I keep telling them it's a good thing, but I suppose it's like training for the big match and not getting any field time, writing a load of stories and not being able to be published. I'm grateful they didn't go and now they're older they are becoming disillusioned with the army and what it has to offer. A blessing I think


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## garza (May 7, 2014)

Apple Ice - Fortunate for them they missed going and missed the chance of being killed, and fortunate also because the experience would have changed them forever. I know it changed me, and I was a soldier, only a reporter. Once you've been there, everything looks different. You can never be a true civilian again. The change does not always show, and the person may not want to talk about it, may even deny he's any different, but the change is there. 

Buy your friends a beer and have them tell some 'war stories' about their training. They'll have some good ones to tell, and maybe they'll get over their disappointment and begin to see the other side, that they were fortunate to miss the action.


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## Clove (May 7, 2014)

War is only beautiful for the winners; heroism only counts if you're being heroic for the side that does not lose.


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## GeeDubayou (May 8, 2014)

Morkonan said:


> "It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it." - Robert E. Lee



I like that quote. Thanks for sharing


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## GeeDubayou (May 8, 2014)

Plasticweld said:


> I think man is draw to war because it is the ultimate test or challenge. It is one thing to guess how you would respond it is another to know how you will react when everything goes wrong. While I have no experience with war, I have had time where I jumped in and others stood by and watched. I have given CPR twice, both guys died.  I have struggled to get the roof off a car looking for a trapped child. In many of the cases people stood by frozen. I have made it a personal vow to never ever "not help" in any way possible. It is a test of what you're made of, I think battle is in some ways the same, I am sure there are people here who have first hand experience with war, I would be curious as to their thoughts



Thank you for sharing. Absolutely wonderful


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## Mistique (May 8, 2014)

Clove said:


> War is only beautiful for the winners; heroism only counts if you're being heroic for the side that does not lose.



Is that true? I don't know too much about war, but havent there been battles that are famous because the loosing party lost with great heroism? The kind where they fight against the odds or for some greater good despite the fact that they know they will loose?


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## Greimour (May 8, 2014)

War causes conflict in me. On one hand I oppose everything that is war - on the other - I wanted to enlist in the army.

I can see the bravery, courage, romance, patriotism, heroism, selflessness and sacrifice in war.

I can see the silver linings of certain individuals but silver linings are a little harder for me to come up with. Though I can rattle some off... it is not the same as seeing beauty in a war. 

I can even understand that sometimes, war can seem as the only course of action - after all - evil succeeds when good men fail to act. 

Yet, despite all that... I can only see war as senseless and pointless. Winners write the history and yet, it is history who tells us who was right. To think that two sides with opposing views felt they were 'right' enough to cause the deaths of millions. That their view of right was a good enough reason to level landscapes, destroy homes, cause animals to go extinct and raid the planet of natural resources. It's kind of sad in many ways and I can't see any beauty or silver linings in sadness.

Still. I do think there is a ferocious and unkind merciless sort of beauty in war. Like the flame that dances and hypnotizes as it cackles away to the delight of those surrounding it. (Bonfire Night in UK for example)

I don't know if war being a test is why men are drawn to it, there are many other ways to test yourself and you don't have to kill others to do it. I think it's a sense of duty usually... or a sense of right and wrong as I briefly mentioned in things I think of when it comes to war. Sometimes it is escape - with no skills or qualifications or escapes... the army can appear to be a 'way out' ... or a 'career' path. Some people with questionable pasts joined the french foreign legion and after giving enough service - became citizens of France with clean records (I watched a documentary a few years ago where some Brits had done exactly that) - but maybe it is the test or challenge that draw some people in. I think when I was a kid playing army games, I wanted to be the war hero and thats why I attempted to enlist in the army when I grew older. I might have a hero complex.

It is probably that grandeur and almost inexplicable vastness that accompanies war why almost all my stories have some kind of war theme mixed in. You can fit war into any genre and not just literally country against country. Boy vs boy, man vs man, gang vs gang, mob vs mob... family feuds... town vs town, man vs animal, animal vs man, alien vs man, man vs nature, man vs himself - the list is as endless as reasons for war and what is good about war and what is bar about war. I even had a story (romance) that was all about 2 boys loving the same girl and had a war that lasted 7 years to decide who got to be with her. It had started simple enough when they were around 8-years-old. One told a teacher the other had stolen the lunchbox of another kid - when in fact he had planted the evidence. This meant, whilst his rival was forced to wait in school for his parents, the little schemer got to walk the girl home. In revenge, the lad some friends ambush him at the weekend so he could spend the day having a picnic with her... and so it escalated for 7 years - when _'something'_ ended the war.

I wonder what my views really are on war. One day I should probably try to figure it out.


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## J Anfinson (May 8, 2014)

Apple Ice said:


> War becomes a fantasy for soldiers. They train so long learning to kill and in the end it's all they want to do, that is until they get the opportunity. I have two friends in the infantry and they were both desperate to get to Afghanistan. They have dreams of grandeur and heroism and now it's been confirmed they're not going they both feel let down and less like soldiers. I keep telling them it's a good thing, but I suppose it's like training for the big match and not getting any field time, writing a load of stories and not being able to be published. I'm grateful they didn't go and now they're older they are becoming disillusioned with the army and what it has to offer. A blessing I think



It's both a blessing and a curse for those like them, but the same could be said for those who have gone. I'll never be the same for going to Iraq, and though I have memories I can be proud of, none of it came without cost. I can still hear the mortars like it was yesterday.

I think we did a lot of good over there, getting rid of a lot of people who had evil intentions. But it's the innocent lives that are taken or ruined that haunts me. How many children have lost parents to senseless violence? It's all a mixed bag of emotions for me.

One of my favorite quotes is: "All gave some, some gave all." - unknown
That's something I try to keep in mind every day.


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## kilroy214 (May 8, 2014)

_A true war story is never moral. It does not instruct, nor encourage virtue, nor suggest models of proper human behavior, nor restrain men from doing the things men have always done. If a story seems moral, do not believe it. If at the end of a war story you feel uplifted, or if you feel that some small bit of rectitude has been salvaged from the larger waste, then you have been made the victim of a very old and terrible lie._  - Tim O'Brien


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## Bilston Blue (May 8, 2014)

> _If at the end of a war story you feel uplifted, or if you feel that  some small bit of rectitude has been salvaged from the larger waste,  then you have been made the victim of a very old and terrible lie._  - Tim O'Brien



I'm tempted to suggest I find this wrong, wrong, and wrong again. So wrong. Only tempted though. It deserves consideration, of course.


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## J Anfinson (May 8, 2014)

Bilston Blue said:


> I'm tempted to suggest I find this wrong, wrong, and wrong again. So wrong. Only tempted though. It deserves consideration, of course.



I find it wrong as well, but it may be true for some.


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## Apple Ice (May 8, 2014)

garza, you're very right, they would probably listen to someone like yourself and Anfinson as you have experienced it first hand. They will have the opportunity to leave the army for good very soon. They both entered at 16 and it is basically all they know at this point. Whether or not they want a "Civy" life is hard to tell, they're both hesitant to commit to either at this stage. 

I don't think there is any beauty in war. My favourite poems are by Wilfred Owen, the famous WWI poet. For all the beauty he wrote, none of it was about beauty.


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## dvspec (May 8, 2014)

> "Find the silver lining in something ugly"



I like that prompt.  I was working in my hometown after we were hit with an EF3 tornado that pretty much took out the whole business district.  I worked way to many hours initially with SAR and then with the recovery and clean up.  And from that whole thing, there is one image that is in my head and I wish in digital format.  

The barber shop in the small town had metal blinds on the front windows.  When the tornado came through, it broke the window and sucked the slats of those blinds through the opening, twisting them into this beautiful shape.  I remembered thinking, after being up for thirty-two hours, how pretty and abstract the image was to me.  They stayed like that the whole first day, but the second day someone interfered with it and changed the shape.  It lost it's beauty and became just more debris.   

With the right mind set, we can find beauty in anything.

I don't agree that there is not beauty in war.  The friendships and relationships that come from it are only one example of many.  There is also Trench Art.  Objects of Art made by soldiers while in the trenches.  Images of the wars taken, painted or drawn by folks such as Garza are another example.   

As for heroism being only for the winners, that is total BS.  Heroism isn't grand gestures and sacrificing your life.  Heroism can be something as simple as comforting a child when they are hurt.  To that child you are the hero.  If the injury is bad and you happen to be a Paramedic, then you become a hero for the parent and anyone associated with the child as well. 

War Simplified:  Big boys with expensive toys sacrificing others to get more toys. 

There is a fine line between brave and stupid.  Always be aware of which side you're on.


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## Morkonan (May 8, 2014)

Just a note:

In no other human endeavor does an entire civilization band together for a unified purpose. War is more than a contest of opposing forces and wills, it's a fusion of people, their hopes, dreams and futures for a shared purpose.

The Earth's atmospheric temperature is rising. It's likely due to anthropogenic forcers. Despite knowing this and despite the fact that, as a result, millions of people may die because of it, mankind will likely do nothing to combat the problem. But, if one extraterrestrial alien landed on Earth and carjacked a little old lady, there'd be interplanetary war... Humans are stoopid.


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## Clove (May 8, 2014)

Morkonan said:


> In no other human endeavor does an entire civilization band together for a unified purpose. War is more than a contest of opposing forces and wills, it's a fusion of people, their hopes, dreams and futures for a shared purpose.



I disagree, especially with the way war is depicted in the current climate. Sure, maybe in WWII, war became a global phenomenon out of sheer necessity, but how many people truly 'united' and backed the invasion of the Middle East? Or take the ongoing wars in Syria which by now has completely disinterested itself from the connection of the people for whom the war is far, far away and remains alien from their lives.

And RE the idea of heroics. Sure, a paramedic who does good in a battle-ground can be 'heroic' but when was the last time we heard about a heroic Iraqi loyalist medic on the side of the 'enemy'? Or why do we not credit the validity of, say, the Yasukuni Shrine in Tokyo? 'Heroism' is, like everything in war, filtered through the position of your side: what is heroic on one side may not be for the other, and inevitably it is up to the winners of the war to decide whose stories constitute being told and revered.

I do not doubt there can be _beauty_ in war: our world wars have produced some of the finest cultural objects in history, but along the same lines of the Romantic theory of the sublime.


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## GeeDubayou (May 8, 2014)

I am quite amazed at what ive started. I want to thank you all for your comments/responses, and your friendly encouragement. 
Im so impressed, thank you all. The inspiration is returning. I hope that my writing, as it will be my first writing "project" in quite some time.


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## GeeDubayou (May 8, 2014)

dvspec said:


> With the right mind set, we can find beauty in anything.
> 
> I don't agree that there is not beauty in war.  The friendships and relationships that come from it are only one example of many.  There is also Trench Art.  Objects of Art made by soldiers while in the trenches.  Images of the wars taken, painted or drawn by folks such as Garza are another example.
> 
> ...



I completely agree. Nothing makes me smile more than seeing the look in a WWII vets eyes as he recalls all those memories, hearing them recall those friends, and talking about the camraderies formed. The connection these groups formed, would be fought to the death to ensure that their friends survived. Human behaviour is a strange thing...
A saw a picture taken on Christmas, i forget the year, but it was of a group of i think American soldiers, with a few Germans celebrating Christmas together smiling and exchanging gifts. 
In war, people are still people. Its when caring stops should we be concerned about humanity


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## garza (May 9, 2014)

Clove - The beauty is not in the war, but in the battle. Your first time is a revelation. You see your soul bared, and you know who your are as you've never known before. Death is there all around you. You live only for the moment, and you rejoice in that moment while you for once have no fear of death. It's too close. A handshake away. In a moment death has become too familiar. The exhilaration of that first time can never be repeated, and will never be forgotten. You will return again and again to try and find that moment, but the high is never quite the same, though each time a beautiful experience because you stand shoulder to shoulder with death as your companion and you believe that if death chooses you to go with him, you will go with a hymn of exaltation on your lips. Such is the beauty of battle.


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## GeeDubayou (May 9, 2014)

Garza- that was poetic. Absolutely poetic. I cant imagine whst youve experience, but thank you for what you did.


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## GeeDubayou (May 9, 2014)

Garza- stories need to be told, and nothing tells a story more than a picture. 
A picture can do so much, it can fill you with joy, break your heart, it can stir patriotism, it can bring back memories.


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## garza (May 9, 2014)

GeeDubayou - Photos for me were always an adjunct to words. I was rated as a pretty fair photographer, but for me words are more powerful in most cases. There are exceptions. An example is the famous photo by AP's Huynh Cong Ut of a young girl running from her village in the midst of a napalm attack. The photo is unquestionably powerful and deserved its Pulitzer, but for me there is greater power in the story behind the picture. I've written several essays about the great victory won by the U.S. in S.E. Asia. Big Iron E there for Nixon. I love listening to a recording of his end-of-war speeches while watching film of the helicopters lifting off from the roof the U.S. Embassy in Saigon with people hanging from the skids and white smoke from burning Embassy documents rising in the background. 

From the fifties through the nineties I carried a twice-rebuilt Leica IIIf that I'd had since I was 13. (or 12 - I found it in a pawn shop in Biloxi end of Summer '53 either right before or right after my birthday.) and a massive amount of Tri-X rolled through it recording scenes of war, anti-war protests, civil rights demonstrations, revolutions, politics and politicians, and a month by month record of my son growing up.

But always the words came first for me.


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## GeeDubayou (May 9, 2014)

Garza......wow. Thats amazing! Sounds like a good camera. 
Yes that was definately a very very phenomenal picture. 
Theres pictures that just cant be described in words. 
Im 29 soon to be thirty, and one of the most heart wrenching pictures ive seen was a coffin draped in the canadian flag as the soldier was being repatriated from Afghanistan. 
It doesnt really bring it home until you see that.


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## stevesh (May 9, 2014)

dvspec said:


> War Simplified:  Big boys with expensive toys sacrificing others to get more toys.



Tell it, brother. There's no beauty or nobility in war. None. Many refer to men and women in uniform as 'heroes'. Being willing to throw away your life at the age of eighteen for no other reason than to make rich old men richer doesn't make you a hero, it makes you a _sap_, me included.

USMC 1967-1971


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## Bard_Daniel (May 11, 2014)

*The Beauty In War*

I'm at a loss for words. Thank you all for sharing. It means so much to me, especially since my father was in the military (did not see combat) and my uncle was in the military (Logistics Officer) in Afghanistan.

So much raw knowledge and power in this thread.

In-fact, it is my favorite thread on this entire board.

Again, thank you all!

Also, seriously makes me think about my decision in joining the military as a journalist/photographer.... 

Any advice on that?


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## Pluralized (May 11, 2014)

I was wandering through Hartsfield Airport and saw this, and I think it's pretty apt:


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## stevesh (May 11, 2014)

If anyone should understand the cruelty of war, it would be Sherman.

It isn't my place to recommend military service or not, but, at least in the Marine Corps, you may train as a journalist, but you'll serve in whatever billet the Corps needs you in at the time. In my day, it was mostly rifleman.

Another poster in this thread seemed to be able to find 'beauty' in war because he was 'just an observer'. He may have a point. Maybe it's the act (or even the intention) of killing another person that renders the beauty invisible. I wonder if those here who find war beautiful would be willing to describe the 'beauty' they find in an act of rape?

One of my favorite quotes on war:

"[his] father the history professor had always maintained the key to understanding our culture lay in the names of Shiloh and Antietam. It was only in their aftermath that we discovered how many of our own countrymen - who spoke the same language and practiced the same religion and lived on the same carpet-like, green, undulating, limestone-ridged farmland - we would willingly kill in support of causes that were not only indefensible but had little to do with our lives."

James Lee Burke - _Rain Gods_


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## Kevin (May 11, 2014)

> the 'beauty' they find in an act of r


 I don't think you'll find that here.


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## stevesh (May 11, 2014)

Kevin said:


> I don't think you'll find that here.



There won't be much of a discussion if you can't even bring yourself to quote the actual word. I was responding mostly to this from @dvspec in post #21:
_
 With the right mind set, we can find beauty in anything._


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## Apple Ice (May 11, 2014)

Both my grandfathers were in WWII, one an aircraft engineer (he obviously had a lot of work during the Battle of Britain) and the other was a machine-turret operator on a navy warship.
 He was the one who shot down fighter-planes and and ultimately killed others. He said he never felt any foreboding or even thought about shooting when he was in the mist of battle because of how adrenaline filled everything was. The Japanese kamikazes were the worst, he said. A few would apparently wave as they dive bombed towards you and so my granddad tried desperately to shoot them down before they reached him and his ship. He said nothing else mattered, he couldn't have cared or thought less about life and death, he just started shooting. Incredibly, he couldn't swim but was still drafted to the Navy. He was on three war-ships, all of which got shot down and sank. He managed to survive all three times from debris floating about until he was rescued by any other ships.     

He died earlier this year at a grand age. I can tell you, looking back in his twilight years, the war was not the thing he was most proud of. It just _was_ for him and he saw no beauty in it. He was thinking about his deceased wife and children when he died and it was these people he was most proud of, not about these wars created by other men.

Only those who have never been experienced war say they are beautiful or potentially so. Anything can be made to be artistic and pretty if you try hard enough. Those who don't know use their imagination which is often prone to sensationalism, those who do know don't have to.  

Unfortunately, it will always happen so long as there are humans and so complaining about it is somewhat of a redundancy.


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## J Anfinson (May 11, 2014)

There is never beauty in killing. Yet there is in saving lives. The worst part about war is that it requires killing to save lives, so finding what little beauty is there becomes impossible for the ones holding rifles. Only the observers see heroes.


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## Kevin (May 11, 2014)

I don't think anyone said war is beautiful. That there could be some items of beauty found there during war... maybe the contrast becomes more apparent to some who are there, observing, invisible to those immersed in the actions.


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## Clove (May 11, 2014)

But picking out one, two items of beauty amongst the rubble totally ignores the destruction in the first place. To me, the idea of beautifying or aestheticising war is a naive and dangerous road to lead.


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## Kevin (May 11, 2014)

> picking out one, two items of beauty amongst the rubble totally ignores the destruction in the first place.


 I find the contrast highlights it. The drab grey of destruction as a constant becomes less sharp. The little reminders of the other make things stand out.





> the idea of beautifying or aestheticising war is a naive and dangerous road to lead


 I don't think that is what was meant here. 
We are constantly propagandized. Some people will be naïve.


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## stevesh (May 11, 2014)

I guess my point was that the idea that there can't possibly be any beauty to be found in a single act of unwanted sexual contact, but it's perfectly all right to wax poetic about the 'beauty' of some aspects of a years-long event that results in the premature deaths of tens or hundreds of millions of people is something I can't wrap my mind around.


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## dvspec (May 11, 2014)

stevesh said:


> There won't be much of a discussion if you can't even bring yourself to quote the actual word. I was responding mostly to this from @dvspec in post #21:
> _
> With the right mind set, we can find beauty in anything._



Since this brother, is actually a sister, the beauty in the rape, would be the color of his bruises and blood and missing favorite body part, when I get done with him for trying it.  If, he should succeed, I think there would be beauty in the blood spatter when I hunt him down.  Like I said, all in the mindset.  <I am serious.  I also find it disturbing, that I find my statement funny.


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## Kevin (May 11, 2014)

> aspects of a years-long event that results in the premature deaths of...


 Not having been a participant (or witness) I find myself unqualified to really answer. I can sort of get your perspective.


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## dvspec (May 11, 2014)

Apple Ice said:


> Incredibly, he couldn't swim but was still drafted to the Navy.



People who can't swim, try harder to keep the boat afloat.


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## garza (May 11, 2014)

Perhaps 'beauty' is not the right word to use in connection with war or battle. I do know I felt an exhilaration, a rejoicing, a need to celebrate life even as the violent threat of death surrounded me. I'm alive! íVivisimo!  The beauty was not around me, but inside me. 

Hard to explain - this mourning mixed with exaltation, this epiphany amidst bloodshed. Add to that the barely controlled urge to rush headlong into the midst of it all, to attack, to come to grips with the fellows on the other side, to shout the Battle Cry of Freedom, to take Death by the collar and force him to come along.  

So let's not call it beauty. Let's call it spiraling insanity, an unnatural high, tripping on the noise and the smoke and the mud and blood, knowing only that you're alive for the moment and if you're dead the next it will have been worth it for this instant of over-the-top joy.

I'm almost 74 now and I can still feel the rush.


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## Bard_Daniel (May 11, 2014)

Wow, Garza, wow..... POWERFUL AND GRIPPING! :O


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