# Entertaining reads with no conflict



## VRanger (Dec 15, 2020)

In my school age years, I used to come across quite a few books that were simply slice of life stories. There was no villain, there was little to no conflict, just interesting and funny things happening.

Yesterday, I thought about Arthur C Clarke's Rendezvous with Rama, which won the Hugo and Nebula Awards, and is considered one of his top tier novels. There is no villain and no conflict in the novel. It chronicles the appearance and subsequent exploration of a mysterious alien probe. The only tension in the novel occurs when a crewmember gets stranded on one side of the probe's interior and his crewmates work out how to get him back. The rest of it is a sense of wonder at the experience of exploration.

The novel doesn't even provide dramatic discoveries or a first contact. When they run out of time, they leave, and they leave with little understanding of what they observed. No resolution. I don't know if that sort of story arc is unique in the genre, but it's markedly unusual.

Despite the absence of plot elements we're commonly told are 'essential', Rendezvous with Rama is a fascinating read and a page turner. Sadly, the sequels written by Gentry Lee--which _are _more traditional plots--are cures for insomnia. I don't know how much Clarke contributed to the plotting of the sequels, but he didn't do the writing. I don't like all of Clarke's stories, but he was never boring.

So we have, in one series, a lead novel with no conflict which is fascinating, followed by three traditional plots including conflict which were, at least to me, snooze fests.

James Herriot's series starting with All Creatures Great and Small also fits the bill.

I'd love to write a book like that, and so far I haven't felt I'm up to it. Thinking about it, I may have a possibility three novels hence (including my WIP), which I only just considered could fit this mold. I have an unusual trial in mind for the MC, but I realize he doesn't have to experience major conflict to face his trial. (I'm going to put that in my notes, NOW!)

Does anyone else think about writing such a story, or have already written such a story, or would like to name other novels fitting the discussion. If so, I'd love to know about them.

Also, discussion of how to write such a story, and do it well, might keep this thread from being moved. LOL


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## indianroads (Dec 15, 2020)

Many years ago I was listening to NPR and they were extolling the virtues of an award winning book that was about a man picking up his dry cleaning during a break at work. Apparently it was all about memories that were triggered while doing this chore. I never read the book, but it seems that many people liked it.

Currently, I'm rereading Kerouac's _On the Road_. Not a lot of conflict there, just flow of consciousness of the beat generation that manages to be entertaining.

As a human, I find drama in everything - even Rendezvous with Rama, floating to the other side of the ship and the discoveries they made I found to be dramatic. Often, emotional conflict can be as, or even more compelling than physical conflict. Vonnegut's Breakfast of Champions had very little in terms of a plot or conflict, yet was extremely entertaining.


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## Taylor (Dec 15, 2020)

The book _Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance_ comes to mind. It was very popular in the 70s.  Although I can vaguely remember the story, I remember really enjoying it.  The title is a bit of a giveaway, but the point of the story is more about the quality of life.  In modern terms it would be synonymous with mindfulness. Not a lot of plot, or villains.  It had a big impact on me as teenager.  

Although, now that I think about it, there was conflict, but more with his internal journey.


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## Theglasshouse (Dec 15, 2020)

Unfortunately, I haven't had the opportunity to read either of these yet. But if Rendezvous with Rama doesn't rely on conflicts does it rely on characters? Some rare storytellers don't rely on conflict. I seem to think literary works of this sort are even considered rare.  The one that started that trend was that Russian writer (not Tolstoy). 

I am thinking I can't judge it well enough. I am guessing it relied on intriguing characters (I used wikipedia). I looked up some fans' opinions, and he supposedly uses some unique characters. It could be a good debate whether he deserved the nebula and Hugo for the novel and why? It might just be a discussion of what made it work.

Maybe he made his conflict almost invisible if it is all internal and what happens to the characters is inside their mind. After reading and mulling some comments this doesn't seem the case with this novel.

According to the book it is an idea driven story maybe about alien culture. That is according to the synopsis.

I think indianroads explained maybe why people like it. It is about the ideas or speculation that people like from it the most. It was because of the discoveries made. It is much liked by fans for many reasons. But this seems to be enigmatic and mysterious since every novel seems to have conflict in the situations or a plot. It is after all about space exploration.


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## Pamelyn Casto (Dec 15, 2020)

Taylor said:


> The book _Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance_ comes to mind. It was very popular in the 70s.  Although I can vaguely remember the story, I remember really enjoying it.  The title is a bit of a giveaway, but the point of the story is more about the quality of life.  In modern terms it would be synonymous with mindfulness. Not a lot of plot, or villains.  It had a big impact on me as teenager.
> 
> Although, now that I think about it, there was conflict, but more with his internal journey.



Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is one of my all-time favorites. I love reading about Plato and Aristotle and their ideas (I love to explore ancient Greek culture) and the way the author pulled them in was purely delicious to me. From the title, I never dreamed it would be a book of interest to me. I first met and and read it in the 1990s but it remains on my bookshelf, all marked up, ready for me to join in with it again. I love that book to pieces.


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## VRanger (Dec 15, 2020)

Theglasshouse said:


> But if Rendezvous with Rama doesn't rely on conflicts does it rely on characters?


I read Rendezvous with Rama in 1975 ... found it in the college bookstore my first quarter, so I'm pondering your question. To answer it, I think about other books I read at the time I haven't revisited since, including other Clarke. All which impressed me have one or more characters I remember vividly, and I remember their conflicts vividly ... including Clarke. Arguably his most famous character is HAL.

While the characters were interesting, I don't recall any major character conflict, and in my mind they weren't the stars of the book. The star was Rama the alien probe. The draw of the book was the mystery of what they would find, and when they did find things, the potential for explanations of what it all meant ... explanations which never came. Of course, we didn't know the book would leave us hanging until we finished the last page, and even more surprising, once we realized that we didn't care. LOL


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## escorial (Dec 15, 2020)

I  looked at my bookcase and there was nothing without conflict there....


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## Taylor (Dec 15, 2020)

Pamelyn Casto said:


> Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is one of my all-time favorites. I love reading about Plato and Aristotle and their ideas (I love to explore ancient Greek culture) and the way the author pulled them in was purely delicious to me. From the title, I never dreamed it would be a book of interest to me. I first met and and read it in the 1990s but it remains on my bookshelf, all marked up, ready for me to join in with it again. I love that book to pieces.



Oh yes, I had forgotten about all the Greek philosphy.  I had the same experience with the title...lol!  Been so long since I read it, I'm going to read it again.  Thanks for the inspiration!


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## VRanger (Dec 15, 2020)

I should have done some puttering around the web on the subject while on the initial post.

One of the top results *proclaims *there is no story without conflict! (A Quora answer, which I always consider suspect).

There there was this:
https://www.standoutbooks.com/without-conflict/

which includes a quote from Ursula Le Guin:
_Modernist manuals of writing often conflate story with conflict. This reductionism reflects a culture that inflates aggression and competition while cultivating ignorance of other behavioral options. No narrative of any complexity can be built on or reduced to a single element. Conflict is one kind of behavior. There are others, equally important in any human life: relating, finding, losing, bearing, discovering, parting, changing.

Change is the universal aspect of all these sources of story. Story is something moving, something happening, something or somebody changing.

_I also found this, which I discovered more or less agrees with my opinion of Rendezvous with Rama:
https://mmjordahl.com/2013/04/28/stories-with-no-conflict/

There are other blogs on the subject, many drawing ambivalent conclusions. The more 'courageous' among the bloggers encourage their readers to consider the possibility, with a sentiment that giving into nothing but stories with conflict is 'same old same old'.


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## indianroads (Dec 15, 2020)

There's conflict in everything. If I go to the refrigerator looking for a snack, I'm conflicted, should I pick celery or ice cream?
Le Guin's Lathe of Heaven, which is one of my favorite books, has conflict, as does the Left Hand of Darkness, and every book in her Earthsea series.

Defining conflict as physical combat is IMO limiting.


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## Terra (Dec 16, 2020)

Would ‘inspired writing’ fit the bill for this style?

I’m told to “show, don’t tell”, but being able to take the ordinary and make it extra-ordinary ... being able to ‘see’ a story inside something that other folks would take as an everyday happening, doesn’t always require showing imo. The craft of telling stories is ancient, and I just can’t picture one of my ancestors using a bunch of adjectives and adverbs to tell a story of what happened on ‘the day when ....’ Inspiration comes from within, and I think sometimes that gets lost in the ‘how to write’ rather than just telling the story.


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## luckyscars (Dec 16, 2020)

vranger said:


> In my school age years, I used to come across quite a few books that were simply slice of life stories. There was no villain, there was little to no conflict, just interesting and funny things happening.



If you google the definition of 'conflict', you will see several. The one people most commonly associate with literary conflict is "a serious disagreement or argument, typically a protracted one." That is common, sure, but there are others...

- "a prolonged armed struggle." 
- "a condition in which a person experiences a clash of opposing wishes or needs."
- "an incompatibility between two or more opinions, principles, or interests"

There is also a verb form: "be incompatible or at variance; clash."

I feel like if one considers all these definitions and all the ways they can possibly manifest, there is probably no story in which there is no conflict. There may well be (definitely are, actually) stories were the conflict is infinitely more subtle, to be sure, and perhaps for the sake of semantic simplicity it would be easier to say 'this story lacks any real conflict', but that does not mean it is true.

Rendezvous With Rama, let's talk about that one because I have read it. But for those who have not, let's simply use the first paragraph of the Wikipedia synopsis...



> After an asteroid falls in Northeast Italy in 2077, creating a major disaster, the government of Earth sets up the Spaceguard system as an early warning of arrivals from deep space.
> 
> The "Rama" of the title is an alien starship, initially mistaken for an asteroid categorised as "31/439". It is detected by astronomers in the year 2131 while it is still outside the orbit of Jupiter. Its speed (100,000 km/h - 62,137 m/h) and the angle of its trajectory clearly indicate it is not on a long orbit around the sun, but is an interstellar object. The astronomers' interest is further piqued when they realise the asteroid has an extremely rapid rotation period of four minutes and is exceptionally large. It is named Rama after the Hindu god,[6] and an unmanned space probe dubbed Sita is launched from the Mars moon Phobos to intercept and photograph it. The resulting images reveal that Rama is a perfect cylinder, 20 kilometres (12 mi) in diameter and 50 kilometres (31 mi) long, and almost completely featureless, making this humankind's first encounter with an alien spacecraft.




^ This is absolutely a conflict already. It doesn't matter if it's not terribly pronounced within the text on the scale of, say, Independence Day or something. This is a conflict because we have a sense of two 'sides': Humanity and space.

I don't want to be quoting giant blocks here, but anybody can see that this story does contain conflict within the parameters of the definitions listed. I think it's worth pointing out that the adversary in any story does not need to be a human being nor particularly adversarial. 

Consider a survival story like Robinson Crusoe. There are actually human antagonists in that, but they show up fairly late, are relatively secondary. A large portion of the book the conflict is really just the protagonist trying to figure out how to survive on an island. Nature can be adversarial, like 'A Perfect Storm' or 'The Martian'. 

Whether or not the writer also includes human antagonists is besides the point: They are not _required _to do that. Indeed, the conflict could potentially be inward, like simply coming to terms with personal tragedy or figuring out what to do with one's life. There are stories about those things. It's hard to write them without any human interactions, sure, but it's absolutely possible to write a novel with a single character locked in a single room (or on a desert planet, etc) and still capture a sense of friction.

Tl;DR: I don't believe there are any stories with no conflict, because I don't believe there is a 'slice of life' without conflict. Life _is _conflict. It is a physical truism. Whether it's bayoneting a Nazi or struggling with getting to work on time in traffic, plot requires perseverance and perseverance requires resistance. There is a different discussion to be had regarding the relative quality of different forms of conflict in literature, but the premise that stories exist without conflict is not correct IMO. The moment the brain leaves the vat, it is stung by the sharpness of light and air.


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## VRanger (Dec 16, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> Tl;DR: I don't believe there are any stories with no conflict, because I don't believe there is a 'slice of life' without conflict. Life _is _conflict.



I simply completely disagree, because I've read them. And saying "life is conflict" is just wrong. Parts of it may contain conflict, but that doesn't mean life is one long conflict.

One of my favorite stories, read as a juvenile, has ABSOLUTELY no conflict. It's about a boy who has a job caring for an older wealthy ladies' lawn. He is tasked with asking for different levels of pay for the job each week depending on how good a job he thinks he did. He's always honest about it, and never asks for the top level. One Saturday he decides he wants that "perfect job" and goes all out. When he finishes, he proudly asks for the top pay, and is proud to show off the job he did, as the lady is impressed and eager to inspect it.

This is a story of honesty and growth. He never had any intent to be dishonest, so there is no personal conflict there. His pride in his work grew, and that type of growth is not conflict. Decisions COULD be conflict, but you really have to push it to get there. In this story, the boy was happy with where he was, but decided to do better anyway. Someone could tell me that deciding between happy and happier is "conflict", but I'll call bullshit.

You might find some detail to argue that you find some conflict in Rendezvous with Rama, but you'll be wrong in essence. It doesn't drive the story, and saying that "humanity and space" is conflict is nonsense. You might as well say that leaving your house to walk in your yard is conflict. LOL


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## Theglasshouse (Dec 16, 2020)

I understand your post vranger since I read Ursula K Le Guin's quote before. I think you'd find that in Janet Burroway's book. It's a good definition that appeals to me. That's even though I posted a thread on conflict and character tension. Life is full of conflict but it can be less subtle. It doesn't have to be abrupt as person versus person. IMO those are people who write literary fiction. IMO I see such approaches in people who turn anecdotes into stories. Using your imagination a flying kite becomes dangerous and does not involve a person versus person. Change is good in this example. But conflict comes in many forms. It has to be inclusion but that is just my opinion and I am no academic.


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## Cephus (Dec 16, 2020)

If you have no conflict, you have no story. Keep in mind that conflict doesn't have to revolve around violence. It's a problem that has to be solved. No problem, no story. It's still conflict.


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## VRanger (Dec 16, 2020)

Theglasshouse said:


> Change is good in this example. But conflict comes in many forms.



Of course conflict comes in many forms. As little reason as I found in Lucky's comment, he's on the right track about "two sides". But it's two sides with different goals, which COULD involve a decision between doing something right vs something wrong ... the angel on one shoulder vs the devil on the other. In his example "humanity and space", "space" doesn't have a goal. If something is hard to navigate, it's not necessarily conflict. Effort isn't conflict. Climbing a hill you want to climb isn't conflict.

Let's say we have a story where character A wants to learn something, so he goes to character B and asks a question, then character C, then character D. The three answers provide the information he needs, so he makes a personal discovery that helps him do something better. Learning, growth ... no conflict.

I have another example, and one by my favorite author, Heinlein. His story was about a young naval officer who was lazy. He didn't wish to do any unnecessary work for any task he was given, so he found easier and more efficient ways to do things. His methods became popular, and he rose through the ranks with a growing reputation as an efficiency expert. Possibly it was a true story about a fellow officer Heinlein knew from his time in the Navy. The officer was never tempted to "do things the hard way because that's how it was done", so no inner conflict. His better methods weren't challenged, so no conflict of status quo versus change. I do think Heinlein intended it as a parable to accept common sense when you come across it. But that's a lesson.


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## Theglasshouse (Dec 16, 2020)

Conflict is difficult to describe. Try to describe the conflict in Romeo and Juliet as Ursula k Le Guin contends and you'll run into trouble listing them all convincingly. 

I found in a search a source to quote from le guin. It's her contention and is the rest of the debate. A book has been written on connection. I own that book. But it is geared to a creative writing class. To connect is imo to feel emotion as some sort of empathy/love, hate among a few of the examples:

(from the web)

I was hunting around on reddit’s writing subreddit, and found a post mentioning this, from Ursula LeGuin:


> People are cross-grained, aggressive, and full of trouble, the storytellers tell us; people fight themselves and one another, and their stories are full of their struggles. But to say that that is the story is to use one aspect of existence, conflict, to subsume all other aspects, many of which it does not include and does not comprehend.
> Romeo and Juliet is the story of the conflict between two families, and its plot involves the conflict of two individuals within those families. Is that all it involves? Isn’t Romeo and Juliet about something else, and isn’t it the something else that makes the otherwise trivial tale of a feud into a tragedy?
> –Ursula K. LeGuin, from Writing Fiction: A Guide to Narrative Craft, by Janet Burroway (4th Ed, HarperCollins 1996), p. 35
> Claudia Hunter Johnson identified that “something else” as connection, which sounds like empathy to me!



This is from the actual book I own:

When “nothing happens” in a story, it is because we fail to sense the causal relation between what happens first and what happens next. When something does “happen,” it is because the resolution of a short story or a novel describes a change in the character’s life, an effect of the events that have gone before. This is why Aristotle insisted with such apparent simplicity on “a beginning, a middle, and an end.”


Burroway, Janet; Stuckey-French, Elizabeth; Stuckey-French, Ned. Writing Fiction, Tenth Edition (Chicago Guides to Writing, Editing, and Publishing) (p. 144). University of Chicago Press. Kindle Edition. 

In Romeo and Juliet, for example, the Montague and Capulet families are fiercely disconnected, but in spite of that the young lovers manage to connect. Throughout the play they meet and part, disconnect from their families in order to connect with each other, finally parting from life in order to be with each other eternally. Their ultimate departure in death reconnects the feuding families. Johnson puts it this way: Underlying any good story, fictitious or true—is a deeper pattern of change, a pattern of connection and disconnection. The conflict and the surface events are like waves, but underneath is an emotional tide, the ebb and flow of human connection.


Burroway, Janet; Stuckey-French, Elizabeth; Stuckey-French, Ned. Writing Fiction, Tenth Edition (Chicago Guides to Writing, Editing, and Publishing) (p. 133). University of Chicago Press. Kindle Edition.

While the pattern of either conflict or connection may dominate in a given work, a story which is only about the conflict will be shallow. There must be some deepening of our understanding of the characters, which is achieved not just through conflicts between good and bad, but through conflicts of one good versus another: does a man join up to serve his country, or stay home to help protect and raise his children?


Burroway, Janet; Stuckey-French, Elizabeth; Stuckey-French, Ned. Writing Fiction, Tenth Edition (Chicago Guides to Writing, Editing, and Publishing) (p. 134). University of Chicago Press. Kindle Edition. 

Like conflict and its complications, connection and its complications can produce a pattern of change, and both inform the process of change recorded in scene and story.

According to her you can build it by:
a passion
an emotion
an obsession
a person
an experience
an image
a perception
a principle

By identifying attitudes, values, and experiences you can create a "vision." She goes on and reveals a emotional menu of things you can write but must come from your self.

Example: a man discriminates a person who has HIV. That is disconnection based on an attitude. The connection would be to be open-minded. It comes from the character in this case. I consider this an attitude. (analysis from one example she gave)


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## VRanger (Dec 16, 2020)

Cephus said:


> If you have no conflict, you have no story. Keep in mind that conflict doesn't have to revolve around violence. It's a problem that has to be solved. No problem, no story. It's still conflict.



That was covered in one of the blogs I read. The author of the blog said he used to teach creative writing, and for a long time taught that to every student. The rest of his blog explained why he came to understand he was wrong.

The fallacy in that definition is that conflict is "a problem that has to be solved". If nothing opposes solving the problem, there is no conflict. I solve Sudoku puzzles on most days. I promise you it involves no conflict. From time to time I learn a new tactic that makes solving a puzzle take less time. Growth, not conflict.

I suppose I could write a story about how I learned various Sudoku tactics. It might not interest everyone, but people interested in Sudoku might be interested. I could liven it up by throwing in a few personal anecdotes, like how I discovered my "wrap around count to five rule", which often points out the next number that solves. Yeah, it's a how to, but I can make a story out of it.


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## Theglasshouse (Dec 16, 2020)

Last bit and another more concrete example (I omitted the rest of the example):

If we also look at “Cinderella” in terms of connection/disconnection, we see a pattern as clear as that represented by the power struggle. The first painful disconnection is that Cinderella’s mother has died; her father has married (connected with) a woman who spurns (disconnects from) her; the Prince’s invitation offers connection; the Stepmother’s cruelty alienates again. The Fairy Godmother connects as a magical friend, but the disappearance of the coach and gown disconnect.

I also have  a copy of crafting short screenplays that connect. But that I need to analyze further because I need to understand it better to explain it well.

To understand Claudia Johnston paraphrasing the book:
IMO what a character believes helps to create connection and disconnection. She gives an example of a man who has a set of keys and dislikes the responsibilities of taking care of other people. Because he manages 12 keys. He doesn't want to be responsible for other people. This is an example of disconnect or disconnection.

Decisions and discoveries are something she uses as stepping stones to explain how to write connection. It's more complex than a definition but is worth reading if people want to write like she does. She has some exercises in the book. It's very thick and I'd need to read it slowly. I also bought that book. It's helpful for studying but is difficult. With dyslexia, I have a difficult time analyzing it. I haven't spent the time to study it deeply.

To understand this beliefs and values determine actions and decisions. How discoveries play a part of connection I don't know.

Hamlet believes in many things and has many values that allowed him to take actions and decisions. Whatever he believed is interpreted in multiple ways. We interpret for example that he wants to prove Claudius's guilt and that makes him indecisive. Others have said it is his madness or that he pretends.

We can probably say hamlet values many different things and Claudius values the throne of Denmark.  Hamlet values justice maybe. It could be different to what I said. That is why he takes actions towards revenge against Claudius who murdered his father (Claudius is the brother of his father).

The improbability of connecting creates the conflict. (connection and disconnection to my understanding creates change and thus creates a story from whom the character believes he or she is. That's where values, beliefs come from or what the character understands of whom they truly are) values can be googled. But I think you can understand the concept by analyzing it's definition which if you look up in the Oxford Dictionary is defined as: principles or standards of behavior; one's judgement of what is important in life.
Example: "they internalize their parents' values."

The concept of change:
A story starts in disconnection. It moves toward connection.

The concept starts in character. There seems to be a disagreement because of it. Her ideas are discovery, decision, conflict and connection are the "cornerstones of drama."

In cinderella imo one character values beauty since the stepsisters are ugly (and they want something or the prince in this case). This creates more scenarios. In the example disconnection happens because of the beginning since the mother is dead. I always assumed she was adopted in the version of cinderella I read. They value other countless things such as wealth, and so forth. To complete the connection she must marry. And since she is the protagonist it ends in marriage, and the stepsisters are not involved. So I guess this is the definition of a power struggle in the terms of how it plays out in Cinderella.


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## Pamelyn Casto (Dec 16, 2020)

vranger said:


> In my school age years, I used to come across quite a few books that were simply slice of life stories. There was no villain, there was little to no conflict, just interesting and funny things happening.



You might enjoy looking into writing haibun (or a version of haibun). (If you're not familiar with the term, it usually involves a literal or spiritual journey and is a combination of prose paragraphs with haiku and sometimes a bit of artwork (haiga).) 

I say that because I enjoyed reading Jack Kerouac, Albert Saijo, and Lew Welch in their book about their trip from San Francisco to New York in 1959 (they were part of The Beat Generation). The short book is filled with their experiences, their observations, their thoughts, and their short segments while making that trip. (It's titled T_rip Trap: Haiku on the Road_.) There' no official "conflict" -- nothing major, just some guys on the road and sometimes having a good bit of fun with their trip and their short poetic creations. I love reading good haibun and can imagine an entire modern-day book done in these short sequences. Haibun has already been done by the old writers/ masters Basho, Issa, and Chiyo-ni so there's plenty to look into on the writing form that can create an entire book. What is life, after all, but a journey of some kind . . .

Anyway, just offering a possibility. Wasn't Garrison Keillor's work sort of slice-of-life stuff? Amusing, interesting, no villains, just people and life as lived in this tiny part of Minnesota (was it Lake Wobegone? (doing memory work here so have likely made a mistake or misspelled a thing or two).


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## luckyscars (Dec 16, 2020)

vranger said:


> I simply completely disagree, because I've read them. And saying "life is conflict" is just wrong. Parts of it may contain conflict, but that doesn't mean life is one long conflict.
> 
> One of my favorite stories, read as a juvenile, has ABSOLUTELY no conflict. It's about a boy who has a job caring for an older wealthy ladies' lawn. He is tasked with asking for different levels of pay for the job each week depending on how good a job he thinks he did. He's always honest about it, and never asks for the top level. One Saturday he decides he wants that "perfect job" and goes all out. When he finishes, he proudly asks for the top pay, and is proud to show off the job he did, as the lady is impressed and eager to inspect it.
> 
> ...



So, you have a different standard of what 'conflict' means. 

This could verge toward being more of a semantic quibble, which isn't very helpful. If you interpret a word a certain way, and that way is different than how others interpret the same word, then the word is useless and of course there's going to be objections. All language hinges on us having similar understandings.

So, with that in mind, if you don't like the word CONFLICT, try switching it for the word TEST. Once you consider the idea of a 'test' then it becomes easier, I think...

"*He is tasked with asking for different levels of pay for the job each week depending on how good a job he thinks he did."*

We can agree, hopefully, that the premise of the story is one of the character being tested? Can we agree on that?

Now, you're probably going to say 'a test does not mean conflict'. But it absolutely can mean that in literature. It's can be viewed as a conflict because a test by definition carries a risk of failure and the struggle between success and failure can lead to plenty of _conflicting_ emotions, reactions, urges, whatever. Ultimately, it's an inner-conflict between the character's desire for X and their fear of Y.

Again, you don't HAVE to think of it that way yourself. But you should allow that it can be thought of that way without issue. 



vranger said:


> In his example "humanity and space", "space" doesn't have a goal. If something is hard to navigate, it's not necessarily conflict. Effort isn't conflict. Climbing a hill you want to climb isn't conflict.



Why not?

Again, I think you're approaching this much too literally and focusing on a single definition of a term that actually has several. By the standard that for there to be some sort of  both parties (humanity and space) must have a goal, that would eliminate so much.

The shark in Jaws has no 'goal' -- it's a shark, it simply exists and follows its natural programming -- and yet the danger it presents through simply existing is such that it _seems_ to have a goal through the perspective of the human beings who then _ascribe _a 'goal' to the shark (it wants to kill us!), one that does not actually exist (the shark is simply eating) but can be made to be believed and, lo, 'conflict' is born. 

That is all that is necessary, because this entire concept of 'conflict' is created by human consciousness anyway. It means nothing in nature and the inanimate. Yet we can all ascribe 'conflict' to non-human things and we do that regularly. If we can give a hurricane a name, why can't we feel ourselves in conflict with it?

You can argue against that, if you want, if your only focus is to take into account interpersonal conflict of the sort that 'holds up in court', but that's not -- I feel -- accurate for plenty of stories in which conflict does seem to exist without the need for recognizable goals. If the broken down spaceship can be in conflict with the imperiled astronauts without a 'goal', then why can't space? Why can't the Titanic? Why can't ghosts? Why can't zombies? 

What difference does it make if the being or object who is threatening me actually has a goal or not, if its very existence threatens mine so that I must enter a _conflict _with that being or object to survive? Why can't I believe that its goal is my destruction when all the evidence seems to make that practically the case, if not technically true?


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## Kyle R (Dec 16, 2020)

Others have already beat me to the punch, but I'll reiterate anyway: conflict doesn't require actual "villians".

All that's needed for conflict are two things: a desire to accomplish something, and difficulty accomplishing it.

It's true, though—you can keep a reader engaged without conflict, for however long it lasts. But conflict itself is naturally interesting, because we want to see if and/or how the character's problems will get solved.

I believe that really engaging writing is a combination of many things. It's not _all_ conflict, sure. But I do find, as a reader, that conflict done well really pulls me in, as a reader. Probably better than any other element. And a lot of times, as a reader, I don't even realize I'm reading conflict until I think about it later. :encouragement:


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## luckyscars (Dec 16, 2020)

If effort does not involve conflict, then why is it an effort? There has to be resistance.

Life is conflict. Simply to stand up, take a breath, walk up the steps is in conflict with gravity. Our entire days are, whether we realize it or not, exercises in survival -- physical, social, financial. It surprises me that this is contentious. 

Your slice of life story, assuming it reflects real life with any accuracy at all, is full of a zillion micro-conflicts if only the eye would spot them. Exhibit A: Interior monologue: _"Boy I want to call my boss a dick but I know I'll lose my job, so instead I'll sit here and stew...and now my mind wanders to my mounting credit card debt, pull up the website...my god, my god, I'll never get out of here!_" <--- This is a conflict as real as swords and lightsabers. It may not be as interesting, but it's a conflict.


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## Theglasshouse (Dec 16, 2020)

I valued vranger's thread in either case even if there is some part of this definition that has confounded a lot of people and confused a lot of people including myself since I struggled with the many definitions of conflict.

After all he got me to read the book or what Ursula was talking about. She posed a question but did not answer it. The scholar Claudia Johnston answered the rest. I edited my post. My previous post has a more complete definition of what she means by connection.

Connection is considered special since it helps writers craft more compelling stories. That is you make the audience care according to her.


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## indianroads (Dec 16, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> If effort does not involve conflict, then why is it an effort? There has to be resistance.
> [...]



An old saying - _only a sail can feel the press of the wind._

Force creates resistance, and resistance creates force.


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## Pamelyn Casto (Dec 16, 2020)

Another perhaps pertinent book which is also one my favorite books is Annie Dillard's_ Pilgrim at Tinker Creek_. This book would likely fall into the category of creative nonfiction but it could just as well be fiction too. The narrator's found a way to be alone in a cabin at some area named Tinker Creek to do her writing and thinking and the book is filled with all sorts of poetry allusions and quote lines, observations, discoveries, surprises, and much more. It's wonderful to read. It's been years since I read it but it remains on my bookshelf, all marked up, ready to go at it again. I get no sense of "villainy" in it. My point is, to me there is no reason a book of fiction couldn't take a similar direction-- be about something other than major conflict or villainy.


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## VRanger (Dec 16, 2020)

Pamelyn Casto said:


> Wasn't Garrison Keillor's work sort of slice-of-life stuff?




Great example.


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## VRanger (Dec 16, 2020)

Kyle R said:


> But conflict itself is naturally interesting, because we want to see if and/or how the character's problems will get solved.




Of course it is, that's why 99.99% of fiction contains conflict. I was interested in a discussion of examples of the .01% that doesn't include conflict, and how to do it well. (Arbitrary percentages made up for emphasis.  )

Along with a few people discussing that, we get some people jumping in to tell me that something I've read several times in my life doesn't exist, and that you can't write it. I'm one of those guys that when I decide to do something, the last thing someone wants to do ... is tell me I can't do it.

A line from my favorite author is: "When you decide to do something, let all the "experts" tell you why it's impossible, then go ahead and do it." LOL Story of my life.

However, I'm going to repeat what I wrote in an earlier post: Effort is not conflict.

I honestly didn't expect a debate on "what conflict is", and I'm going to end it right now. From Meriam-Webster:

1: FIGHT, BATTLE, WAR - an armed conflict

2a: competitive or opposing action of incompatibles : antagonistic state or action (as of divergent ideas, interests, or persons)
a conflict of principles

2b: mental struggle resulting from incompatible or opposing needs, drives, wishes, or external or internal demands
His conscience was in conflict with his duty.

3: the opposition of persons or forces that gives rise to the dramatic action in a drama or fiction

Neither effort nor problem solving is conflict without adding elements of the above. We're writers. Words matter. We can't go adding our own definitions to words and pretend those spurious definitions have validity. And yes, I understand that some theorists do that. It doesn't make them right, it just makes them ignorant of the language they promote expression in.


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## Theglasshouse (Dec 16, 2020)

vranger said:


> Of course it is, that's why 99.99% of fiction contains conflict. I was interested in a discussion of examples of the .01% that doesn't include conflict, and how to do it well. (Arbitrary percentages made up for emphasis.  )
> 
> Along with a few people discussing that, we get some people jumping in to tell me that something I've read several times in my life doesn't exist, and that you can't write it. I'm one of those guys that when I decide to do something, the last thing someone wants to do ... is tell me I can't do it.
> 
> A line from my favorite author is: "When you decide to do something, let all the "experts" tell you why it's impossible, then go ahead and do it." LOL Story of my life.


That's why this thread is a good discussion. Because of what you said in the quotes. The thread is for me about this more so about making the reader care without villainy or without direct adversaries. So what I understand from this discussion is the concept of change. Which you discussed and took from ursula k le guin. Emotional conflict can be created. I was thinking although this may be only me doing this. I am going to study my personality according to some self-help books on values, beliefs, and attitudes. That way I can create some action and decision from the character. I did research this. There are some self-help guides to discovering my own beliefs, attitudes, and values I found.

I figure if we do something similar to that we can imagine better how create the action and decision that will drive the stories. 

That creates change. Change starts with a bad perception or attitude which creates a disconnect going to connection. You want to do that to create the improbability of connection.

It's from value, attitude, or belief that you can create a vision according to Sam smiley or the work of art. You study yourself. It is conviction according to him that creates connection or disconnection to be more precise.  (taken from Claudia Johnston's book who answered this question to Ursula)

That is not conflict and imo is the most important contribution to this thread or the main point. Which you brought up. It is also the answer to why maybe that novel works.  

There might be more, but we have to study ourselves at least to understand how to make a character work without the most obvious misconceptions of conflicts. According to Ursula a competition is conflict, but most of the textbooks give different definitions of conflicts. Which only leaves the reader confused more so that ever before. If you will my source is the quote you provided. This is the explanation. Since Ursula's question was answered at a later time. It is also what is driving movies. Connection sounds like emotion when you first hear the word. But it really is all about creating change.

We start at the disconnection and transition to connection. The difficulty to connect is another way of saying a change happened in the reader. We can all think of it as emotional for everyone's unique perspective. Someone felt something. But since I haven't read the work (rendezvous with Rama). I am thinking I am missing out on a lot of context.

According to Janet who wrote on the topic and featured the quote in it, (in her book) she also created a small plot where the characters are disconnected then connected. Then if I am not mistaken to maintain change she disconnects the reader again. The example she uses is Cinderella. She uses for example of the fairy godmother. She makes friends with the fairy godmother, but then her powers are only for a limited time. Her friendship doesn't seem real. She feels alone and on her own. She started out with no one friend in the story.
(beliefs, values, and attitudes are on her list on things to explore when writing the story (both in the character section and quote). She covers these points in the chapter titled the self, which is why I want to understand myself (we need to understand ourselves) to write with conviction. She is a screenplay teacher but Janet is a fiction professor who quotes her after the section she talks about le guin (writing fiction: a guide to the narrative craft tenth edition by Janet Burroway).


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## TheManx (Dec 16, 2020)

indianroads said:


> Currently, I'm rereading Kerouac's _On the Road_. Not a lot of conflict there, just flow of consciousness of the beat generation that manages to be entertaining.



Yeah -- I think Dean Moriarty is the conflict...


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## luckyscars (Dec 16, 2020)

vranger said:


> However, I'm going to repeat what I wrote in an earlier post: Effort is not conflict.
> 
> I honestly didn't expect a debate on "what conflict is", and I'm going to end it right now. From Meriam-Webster:
> 
> ...



Every single story contains one of those definitions. Otherwise it isn’t a story.

Your claim that “effort is not conflict” is contradictory. Again, if there is no conflict (according to the definitions you provide) there is no need for effort. Things that require effort obviously result in “opposing needs/demands” because part of you wants to stop and the other part wants to continue and in that CONFLICT something wins out and that = effort.

Nobody is making up definitions here. I take a bit of exception to the idea that disagreeing with your maxims and what is permissible within them is ignorant. Perhaps you’re ignorant of the broadness of what a word can mean? 

Who are you to dictate what is not conflict anyway? For a clinical depressive, getting out of bed may not merely be an act of effort but a conflict within themselves equivalent in life or death stakes to any true war.


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## Theglasshouse (Dec 16, 2020)

I don't think opening a conflict here is going to help anyone. I'd let bygones be forgotten.


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## Cephus (Dec 16, 2020)

vranger said:


> That was covered in one of the blogs I read. The author of the blog said he used to teach creative writing, and for a long time taught that to every student. The rest of his blog explained why he came to understand he was wrong.
> 
> The fallacy in that definition is that conflict is "a problem that has to be solved". If nothing opposes solving the problem, there is no conflict. I solve Sudoku puzzles on most days. I promise you it involves no conflict. From time to time I learn a new tactic that makes solving a puzzle take less time. Growth, not conflict.
> 
> I suppose I could write a story about how I learned various Sudoku tactics. It might not interest everyone, but people interested in Sudoku might be interested. I could liven it up by throwing in a few personal anecdotes, like how I discovered my "wrap around count to five rule", which often points out the next number that solves. Yeah, it's a how to, but I can make a story out of it.



Sure there is, your own skill and intelligence. It becomes a matter of man vs. self. It might not be a very interesting conflict but it is conflict nonetheless.


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## VRanger (Dec 18, 2020)

Cephus said:


> Sure there is, your own skill and intelligence. It becomes a matter of man vs. self. It might not be a very interesting conflict but it is conflict nonetheless.



I don't buy that (man vs self). Read the definition: "two forces". Yes, there can be internal conflict when someone has a set of motivations and has to decide between them, but the act of learning if you wish to learn does not involve conflict. The act of expending effort when you always wanted to expend the effort does not involve conflict. There is no "versus" ... only agreement and accomplishment.

I'm not trying to convince you to write a story with no conflict, and I gave examples of stories I've read with no conflict. I didn't just make this stuff up. I did quote and link discussion from an experienced prof and an experienced author.

I've never written a story with no conflict, but one of these days I'm going to try my hand. Heck, I'm sitting here right now considering how to turn one conflict into several without making the subsequent conflicts break an already established chain of logic in my plot. My novels are all about conflict--of every sort--martial, internal, decision making, argumentative. You name it, I've written that type of conflict. I understand it.

But a fake definition of conflict isn't going to stand up for me. I think a lot of things are being called "conflict" that simply are not, because once someone has staked out the ground that "all stories must be conflict", the people who stake out that ground will go to ridiculous extremes to defend that absurdity. I mean, take Lucky with his "life is conflict", or "man versus space" misconceptions. Someone convinced him of that, and he can't think outside of that box ... yet. Maybe one day he'll broaden his horizons.

"I opened a door, and what I found inside was cool" is a valid story, and can be fascinating with no conflict whatsoever.


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## Matchu (Dec 18, 2020)

This is an old marble.  

Everybody is aware of the gentlemen with the cheese breath and rubix cubes and dice and copies of 'rules of writing 1922,' why can we not leave them alone?  Did not Joseph Heller, the greatest writer in world history ever, write a novel called 'Something Happened' in which nothing happened?  I never read it.

I believe the community understands that despair feeling hunched at the keyboard, 'nnnng, nnnng, where is my conflict?'  Keep going, never give up until the dog years overwhelm, and your life writes appear in the parish photostat you loser, not me.


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## Kyle R (Dec 18, 2020)

vranger said:


> "I opened a door, and what I found inside was cool" is a valid story, and can be fascinating with no conflict whatsoever.



... but every time you go to show your friends/family what's inside, the container is, bewilderingly, _empty_. :grief:

"I swear, it was right there!"

*Consoling looks from your loved ones.*

Then, whenever it's just you, the cool thing is mysteriously back again.

(The conflict is wanting others to believe you, but the thing keeps vanishing whenever you try.)


It's true that some people have different definitions of what "conflict" is. For me, it's simply wanting something, and encountering difficulties along the way. But for others, that definition might not work.

The main thing is to use whatever works for you. :encouragement:


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## VRanger (Dec 18, 2020)

Kyle R said:


> It's true that some people have different definitions of what "conflict" is. For me, it's simply wanting something, and encountering difficulties along the way. But for others, that definition might not work.



Some people might consider a different definition, but there is a real definition of the word, quoted above. Anyone using a "different definition" needs to find the word that means whatever they are talking about.


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## luckyscars (Dec 18, 2020)

vranger said:


> But a fake definition of conflict isn't going to stand up for me. I think a lot of things are being called "conflict" that simply are not, because once someone has staked out the ground that "all stories must be conflict", the people who stake out that ground will go to ridiculous extremes to defend that absurdity. I mean, take Lucky with his "life is conflict", or "man versus space" misconceptions. Someone convinced him of that, and he can't think outside of that box ... yet. Maybe one day he'll broaden his horizons.
> 
> I mean, take Lucky with his "life is conflict", or "man versus space" misconceptions. Someone convinced him of that, and he can't think outside of that box ... yet. Maybe one day he'll broaden his horizons.



How pathetic to not actually engage with the points I made and then shoot insults from afar. 

I imagine you won't bother to engage with my argument again, so this is possibly wasted time, but let's try, just in case you're somehow feeling up to it today.



> I don't buy that (man vs self). Read the definition: "two forces". Yes, there can be internal conflict when someone has a set of motivations and has to decide between them, but the act of learning if you wish to learn does not involve conflict. The act of expending effort when you always wanted to expend the effort does not involve conflict. There is no "versus" ... only agreement and accomplishment.




 Learning absolutely can be a form of conflict and usually is. Have you ever tried to teach a young child to read? They want to, they are willing, but it's a struggle, a fight within themselves to enter this new reality.

 Learning requires one to replace preconceptions and biases with a new, ideally an improved version. Even if the person is relatively willing to learn, to go from a position of "vaccines don't seem safe" to "vaccines are safe and these are the reasons why" requires a battle to be fought in intellect. 

Not all learning is intellectual, of course. Some of it is emotional, spiritual, physical, whatever else. But it is still about the replacement of biases and preconceptions, disruption of those things, and, unless the learner is a human vegetable, interruption of one's ignorance is never entirely uncontentious. 

And yes, that is a perfectly valid description of 'conflict'. Because...why isn't it? It has two forces (ignorance being one, enlightenment being the other) which are usually in opposition (because if they are not in opposition there would be little point in learning) and an outcome in one being ultimately 'victorious'. 

If these two forces (ignorance and enlightenment) were two physical human beings, two actual people arguing over vaccines say, you would have no problem calling it 'a conflict'. So why is it a problem?

Your entire standard for what counts as 'conflict' seems to be that there must be two separate, conscious entities engaging in the dispute. It is perfectly acceptable to have that standard, but it is not in the dictionary nor is it your place to call anybody mistaken for considering the term differently. You don't get to gatekeep the English language to fit your preferences.



> "I opened a door, and what I found inside was cool" is a valid story, and can be fascinating with no conflict whatsoever.




That isn't a story, as Kyle said. That is an action and an observation. You write that, with nothing further, it will likely be dogshit, because absolutely anybody can do it. "I opened the door and there was a monster inside" only matters if there is something that happens -- a _conflict --_ that results from it.


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## Tettsuo (Dec 18, 2020)

Kyle R said:


> ... but every time you go to show your friends/family what's inside, the container is, bewilderingly, _empty_. :grief:
> 
> "I swear, it was right there!"
> 
> ...


My definition - Unfulfilled desire


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## Kyle R (Dec 19, 2020)

vranger said:


> Some people might consider a different definition, but there is a real definition of the word, quoted above. Anyone using a "different definition" needs to find the word that means whatever they are talking about.



To really understand the meaning of "conflict" in dramatic fiction, we have to look deeper than Merriam-Webster's simplified definition. The term (and its usage in relation to fiction) goes all the way back to Aristotle, (and has evolved many times over, since then).

It's like if we were having a discussion with chess players, regarding the differences between classical and hypermodern play. Pointing to Merriam-Webster's definition of either of the terms would be kind of . . . below the level of the discussion.

To be fair, I think Merriam-Webster does a good job of summing things up with its definition. But it's more of a _starting point_, when it comes to the concept, rather than the final word. :encouragement:


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## Taylor (Dec 19, 2020)

I have been following this very entertaining discussion (full of conflict ironically), wondering what my position is on 'Entertaining reads with no conflict'. 

At first I thought, yeah, they're definitely out there, but then I couldn't think of one. So now I'm leaning towards, to make it entertaining you have to include conflict. 

 I'm also wondering if it is more a question of the author expressing conflict that already exists.

For example, if we use Indiansroad's example. 



indianroads said:


> There's conflict in everything. If I go to the refrigerator looking for a snack, I'm conflicted, should I pick celery or ice cream?



John goes to the refrigerator to get a snack.  He reaches for the freezer first, pauses and then chooses celery from the vegetable bin.  

Or:

John goes to the refrigerator to get a snack. He reaches for the freezer first, remembering there was some of his favourite Haagen-dasz, cookie dough ice cream left.  He pauses to think about his recent weight gain.  He decides today is a good day to start that diet, and then chooses celery from the vegetable bin. 

In both examples the action of the story is exactly the same.  In both cases his inner thoughts exists accept in the second one the author chooses to share his inner conflict.  Which one is more entertaining?


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## Theglasshouse (Dec 19, 2020)

I admit connection or change that is emotionally connecting is a technique or form of one can make you care and even then it still needs conflict to work. After researching it, the answer seems elusive. I am still thinking theme seems like a surefire way to express your values, beliefs, emotions, passions, visions, and attitude. Movies apply this technique. For fiction coincidentally I am learning playwriting techniques. Playwriting plays on theme, messages, and anything I already mentioned. After mulling it over I think I will never truly know the answer defintively. There is no technique to add disconnect to connection other than to write what you personally believe in as mentioned before.

Since those are teachings of an mfa and writing program that is unique. All I can say is that if you incorporate belief into the conflict you can write a more compelling story.

There are no explicit teachings. Therefore people can probably only consider it as an afterthought if they consider it that after finishing a work of fiction. Still I enjoyed the discussion. Reading works to look for common themes in life is something I will try to put in my very own stories that works with conflict to move an audience if that makes sense.

For example we can read Cinderella or any story and analyze it for theme. It has as one of its themes friendship. We can articulate our thoughts and beliefs of friendship and make it a conflict. What we believe of friendship can be our personal belief expressed in a story as a conflict that will make the reader care. If we have a message worth sharing.

Likewise for other stories it applies. If we can turn connection into conflict and plot with a message I can see our stories making people care and have meaningful connections. One of the best examples of connection was schindler's list. A businessman cares for the life of his employees because of a war.


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## VRanger (Dec 19, 2020)

Taylor said:


> John goes to the refrigerator to get a snack.  He reaches for the freezer first, pauses and then chooses celery from the vegetable bin.
> 
> Or:


That example was incomplete (not yours--the original comment). If "John" likes both celery and ice cream and is fit, there is no conflict. If John's doctor demanded he eat healthier, then there is conflict. You're correct in discussing that context is important.

I think we've missed an important corollary to conflict. The resolution needs consequence. I might go to the refrigerator for a soft drink and decide between an Orange Crush and a Dr. Pepper. No matter which one I select, I will enjoy the drink. Neither decision alters the consequence of the choice, so there is no conflict.

How do I make that conflict? I change the context:
My wife likes Dr. Pepper more than Orange Crush. I go to the refrigerator and find there is a six pack of Orange Crush, but only one Dr. Pepper ... the last one. I approached the refrigerator with a slight preference for a Dr. Pepper this time. So now, do I indulge that preference and take the last one my wife prefers?

Now we have a consequence. Later my wife hits the fridge and says, "You took the LAST Dr. Pepper?!?" I duck out of the house before she can find me and busy myself cutting the grass, so the lawn mower cuts out the potential sound of more remonstration.

There's some conflict.


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## Taylor (Dec 19, 2020)

vranger said:


> That example was incomplete (not yours--the original comment). If "John" likes both celery and ice cream and is fit, there is no conflict. If John's doctor demanded he eat healthier, then there is conflict. You're correct in discussing that context is important.
> 
> I think we've missed an important corollary to conflict. The resolution needs consequence. I might go to the refrigerator for a soft drink and decide between an Orange Crush and a Dr. Pepper. No matter which one I select, I will enjoy the drink. Neither decision alters the consequence of the choice, so there is no conflict.
> 
> ...



I think we are in a agreement, but the point I was trying to make was not about context.  The point I was trying to make was about existance.  You asked the question about entertaining reads with no conflict.  My point was that you can write the same story and just not portray the conflict that exists in the story, in other words, it's there, just left out of the read.  Is it still entertaining, and are there successful examples out there? I don't know? 

And, if the author doesn't provide the conflict for us, we may go ahead and make our own assumptions, because that's human nature.  Indianroads didn't have to provide the specifics of the conflict, because he lead me to suppose based on the items he picked.  How many people prefer celery to ice cream?


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## VRanger (Dec 19, 2020)

Taylor said:


> My point was that you can write the same story and just not portray the conflict that exists in the story, in other words, it's there, just left out of the read.



That was why I reflected that you were discussing assumed conflict. It happens before the story starts, and whatever came earlier would provide context. Of course, there would have to be any clue at all in the story about the pre-existing context, so now I get that you're discussing "What if there is no clue?"

The answer depends on the story. In the example I gave about the boy tending the lawn, there is no conflict, and it's a read I so enjoyed that I've remembered it since childhood. I think I first read it in Boys Life, although I now understand it has longer legs than that. You could certainly add any number of situations preceding the start of the story pitting his need to earn money against some other need. However, nothing like that was written, nor was there a hint of it in the story.

So in that case, the answer to your question is "Yes, it can be every bit as entertaining."



Taylor said:


> How many people prefer celery to ice cream? :smile:



On some days, my wife.


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## bazz cargo (Dec 19, 2020)

There are two ways to look at 'rules.'
1/ Someone more experienced has shared their knowledge
2/ A challenge...

Now, Rendezvous with Rama, a study of a gigantic metal cylinder containing an unresolved series of mysteries is an interesting stretch of the definition of conflict. Dare to dream of such a chance to make a similar codicil to the 'Rules.'

I'm a simple soul who  uses conflict to reveal the character of my characters. The arc of 'Growth.' The 'Personal Journey.' 

Life, as I am frequently repeating myself, is speeding along the catastrophe curve with my ass hanging over the edge. 

Write from your imagination, don't let rules stand in your way. Everything will either stand or fall by its own merit. 

Kick ass
BC


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## MistWolf (Dec 21, 2020)

vranger said:


> One of my favorite stories, read as a juvenile, has ABSOLUTELY no conflict. It's about a boy who has a job caring for an older wealthy ladies' lawn. He is tasked with asking for different levels of pay for the job each week depending on how good a job he thinks he did. He's always honest about it, and never asks for the top level. One Saturday he decides he wants that "perfect job" and goes all out. When he finishes, he proudly asks for the top pay, and is proud to show off the job he did, as the lady is impressed and eager to inspect it.
> 
> This is a story of honesty and growth. He never had any intent to be dishonest, so there is no personal conflict there. His pride in his work grew, and that type of growth is not conflict. Decisions COULD be conflict, but you really have to push it to get there. In this story, the boy was happy with where he was, but decided to do better anyway. Someone could tell me that deciding between happy and happier is "conflict", but I'll call bullshit.
> 
> You might find some detail to argue that you find some conflict in Rendezvous with Rama, but you'll be wrong in essence. It doesn't drive the story, and saying that "humanity and space" is conflict is nonsense. You might as well say that leaving your house to walk in your yard is conflict. LOL


The story you describe is a perfect example of motivation, conflict and resolution, risk and reward, choice and consequences. Without motivation, conflict and consequences, there is no personal growth. Not just in stories, but in real life. Look at people who grew up having everything given to them and never suffered the consequences of their choices.

The motivation of the main character is to have a job. The conflict is being tasked to carry the burden of his own integrity. He chooses honesty, taking the risk the old woman will question his workmanship, judgement and integrity. His motivation evolves as he gains resolution with each task. Soon, he just doesn't want to do a good job, he wants to the job well enough to deserve top pay. This comes at a greater risk and sacrifice than before. What if his work isn't good enough? What if he makes a makes a mistake? What if he comes across a problem he has no experience dealing with? What if the old woman has a different idea of what's worthy of top pay?

In the end, he succeeds, but only after hours of hard work and sacrifice and the risk that he may not be up to the challenge. This story is the classic "Man versus himself.

Choosing between being happy and being happier is NOT bullshit. It's good to be happy, but to be happier is better. It's growth and it's risky. A couple can be very happy in their relationship, but in seeking to make their lives happier, they risk making things worse. I know this from personal experience. Not seeking to be happier is stagnation, a danger to relationships.

Humanity and space is clearly a conflict. It's the classic "Man versus Environment". Space is one of the harshest, most unforgiving environments where humans live and work. It takes long hours of training to ensure a human in space doesn't kill themself or others. Space doesn't care if a human- or the entire race, for that matter- lives or dies. Only that we obey all laws, dealing out swift and merciless punishment for the smallest violation.

I haven't read "Rama" but looked up a couple of synopsis of the story. (I plan to soon.) "Rama" does indeed contain conflicts. The conflict of an unknown celestial body on a possible collision course with Earth, dealing with a nuclear warhead sent "just in case" to destroy Rama, time pressure to explore and understand Rama before it leaves the solar system, gaining access without getting killed or worse- destroying any of Rama through ignorance.

The claim that "Rama" or the story about the boy and old woman are stories without conflict, or that a story without conflict can be appealing, goes against everything I was taught in school. If that were true, why are "Mary Sue" characters mocked?


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## VRanger (Dec 21, 2020)

MistWolf said:


> The claim that "Rama" or the story about the boy and old woman are stories without conflict, or that a story without conflict can be appealing, goes against everything I was taught in school. If that were true, why are "Mary Sue" characters mocked?



I'll hearken back to the college creative writing prof who disclaimed what he had taught for many years, which is what you were taught in school. You're more than welcome to click that link and argue with him.  And I didn't originate the idea that RwR is a story essentially without conflict. You'll find others who discuss that. You can stretch the story about the yardwork all you want to. The truth is that's it's merely a peaceful and uplifting story, and that's all it was meant to be. If you want to rewrite the existing story and add all that other stuff, be my guest. 

Reading more into a story than the author intended is ridiculously common. Some editions of "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" still contain a proscription by Twain aimed at English teachers whom he believed would become fixated with notions of symbolism. His fears were well founded. I spent a quarter in High School studying the symbolism in that book, AFTER the English teach gleefully read Twain's warning and laughed it off. "The River as Mother". Blech.

And no, this has NOTHING to do with Mary Sue characters. Different device, different discussion.

What I wonder is why several people are so disturbed at the notion a good story can exist without conflict. I didn't make this up. I quoted authorities. It seems a very narrow-minded attitude in an art which screams for open minds.


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## MistWolf (Dec 21, 2020)

A Mary Sue is a perfect example of what we're talking about because the character doesn't experience conflict. 

PhD or not, I wouldn't trust the opinion about story conflicts by someone who cannot see any conflicts in "Rama". Just reading the synopsis, I saw several. 

I also recognize the conflict in the "Lawnmower Boy" story. I've experienced the same kind of on-the-job internal conflicts myself. 

But, you do you.


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## indianroads (Dec 21, 2020)

The closest I can come to no conflict is Vonnegut’s Breakfast of Champions


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## VRanger (Dec 22, 2020)

MistWolf said:


> A Mary Sue is a perfect example of what we're talking about because the character doesn't experience conflict.



That's not even close to what a Mary Sue is. A Mary Sue is a character with no flaws. They can have all the conflict they want, they just overcome it all unbelievably easily.



MistWolf said:


> Just reading the synopsis, I saw several.



Sounds like someone who reads the Cliff Notes of Moby Dick and becomes an expert. LOL No, don't take that comment seriously, but also don't pretend to know more about the novel than someone, who ... you know, actually READ the entire thing. ;-)


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## MistWolf (Dec 22, 2020)

vranger said:


> That's not even close to what a Mary Sue is. A Mary Sue is a character with no flaws. They can have all the conflict they want, they just overcome it all unbelievably easily.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like someone who reads the Cliff Notes of Moby Dick and becomes an expert. LOL No, don't take that comment seriously, but also don't pretend to know more about the novel than someone, who ... you know, actually READ the entire thing. ;-)



I guess it would be more accurate to say a Mary Sue immune to conflict. Everything goes their way. The result is the same- dull, boring and tedious. Like the planet Calufrax.

I don't claim to be an expert about "Rama" from just reading a synopsis. Just that it's so obvious the story has conflict, it's seen by reading just the synopsis.

Yes, I'll be listening to "Rama" after I finish "Cat Mojo".


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## MistWolf (Dec 22, 2020)

Change of plans:  I won't be listening to Rama. Narrator is too dry.


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## luckyscars (Dec 22, 2020)

MistWolf said:


> Change of plans:  I won't be listening to Rama. Narrator is too dry.



Don't worry about it. Heinlein isn't a very good writer, more of an 'ideas man' and they're generally tedious. Most of his characters are wooden as a Jenga set.


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## MistWolf (Dec 23, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> Don't worry about it. Heinlein isn't a very good writer, more of an 'ideas man' and they're generally tedious. Most of his characters are wooden as a Jenga set.



Ha! Don't get me started on Heinlein (although he's one of my favorite authors).

PS- "Rendezvous With Rama" was written by Arthur C. Clarke


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## luckyscars (Dec 23, 2020)

MistWolf said:


> Ha! Don't get me started on Heinlein (although he's one of my favorite authors).
> 
> PS- "Rendezvous With Rama" was written by Arthur C. Clarke



Ow, yes I meant Clarke, not Heinlein. Heinlein was fixed on my brain because certain people on here keep blathering on about how great he is at absolutely everything. I'll probably end up dreaming about these people tonight now. A very boring dream.


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