# What is your approach to outlining a new writing project?



## storiesandpages (Jul 15, 2018)

This is something I've been wondering myself for a while. I usually just grab a pen and a piece of paper and start writing concepts I have in mind, and once I can narrow my ideas down to something more concrete, I break it out into a rough, 4 act structure.

My approach is not structured, to say the least, it's pretty free-form, and it's something I'd like to get a better handle on so... what is your approach?


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## Jack of all trades (Jul 15, 2018)

I don't typically outline. I may have a rough idea of how I want the story to progress, or just an end goal in mind.

I write mysteries, mostly, when solo writing, so I've taken to creating a timeline as I go along. This helps me not have people working on holidays and the like.

My joint writing is even more freeform. But there two of us to keep things moving along and exciting. Sometimes we do have to scrap something and try again. But even that isn't too painful.


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## sonosublime (Jul 15, 2018)

I'd love to know this also. I used to throw everything into Word, but have now started using ywriter to move ideas around etc


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## storiesandpages (Jul 15, 2018)

sonosublime said:


> I'd love to know this also. I used to throw everything into Word, but have now started using ywriter to move ideas around etc



What's ywriter?


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## storiesandpages (Jul 15, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> I don't typically outline. I may have a rough idea of how I want the story to progress, or just an end goal in mind.
> 
> I write mysteries, mostly, when solo writing, so I've taken to creating a timeline as I go along. This helps me not have people working on holidays and the like.
> 
> My joint writing is even more freeform. But there two of us to keep things moving along and exciting. Sometimes we do have to scrap something and try again. But even that isn't too painful.




Where can I read some of your work, Jack?


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## J T Chris (Jul 15, 2018)

My approach to outlining is writing a rough draft and then taking it from there.


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## Jonthom (Jul 15, 2018)

I generally have a structure in place giving a rough outline of where the story is going - I find sometimes it helps if I know how this piece will end and can set up clues for that earlier in the piece. The structure is always open to change but - particularly with long-term pieces - I find having a tough timeline helps keep things consistent.

That said, sometimes I'll have an idea that sort of comes to me fully formed and I can just sit down and write, particularly for shorter pieces or those where I already know what's happening.


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## Dormouse (Jul 15, 2018)

I have an A5 journal that I write ideas in. One idea per page, character, plot, setting, etc. I can then go back and flesh out those ideas. The ones I feel work I will use in a project.

I then write a rough outline (who, what, when and how), list of chapters, in an A4 notebook. I can then flesh that out if I wish. 
I find it useful to write the first chapter in the notebook to give my juices a start.
Then hit the pc hopefully producing something readable.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 15, 2018)

I start with a nugget of an idea, and it grows.  I tend to act out a lot of scenes (I'm like the mad hatter when it comes to talking to myself) and develop the story until I have the entire skeleton sketched out in my mind.
I don't write it down because it's already burned into my mind.
While I am working on a book I do crazy amounts of reading on that subject matter, and often the story develops even more as I learn more about that field or scenario.
I am a non-fiction junkie.  There are 30 lbs of books and magazines in each of the bathrooms in my house.  
But talking through scenes has always been my fav way to create scenes.
The secret is to always wear a bluetooth headset when I do it so people don't think I'm completely nuts...they just think I'm animated when I talk on the phone.
If they only knew....


I used to just write stories straight out, free writing, but I painted myself into a few corners.  When you are talking about a 150,000 word novel, it's a big corner to get out of.

So then I used index cards and spreadsheets for the characters...but that actually turns into this whole writing-avoidance thing.  You've all seen it--writers who spend their day creating elaborate profiles and personality indexes...but never actually do much writing.  

So now I don't write down anything until I actually start writing, and then it is only names and basic facts about the character (facts *used *in the book, not a whole profile thingy.)
I have to write down names because I am totally SPED when it comes names.  I was married 3 months before my wife pointed out that her name was not Debra. 


Funny thing: I used to use a tape recorder to record my practice dialog sessions so I could transcribe them.  But once I record them to tape, I didn't need the tape recorder anymore because it was indelibly etched in my brain.
It was just a roundabout way to use up a lotta batteries.


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## storiesandpages (Jul 15, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> I used to just write stories straight out, free writing, but I painted myself into a few corners.  When you are talking about a 150,000 word novel, it's a big corner to get out of.



I have DEFINITELY been there, so I know exactly what you mean. That's why I'm trying to structure my approach to writing more so I don't make those same mistakes.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 16, 2018)

Yep.  With shorter works you can get away with freeform writing, but once you get over about 100k you need a plan. 
I have 3 books outlined in my head now, ready to be written, and 2 good ideas forming.
Sometimes a new idea usurps the ones that were already in line.


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## Caden_S (Jul 16, 2018)

I am also one who doesn't outline; or I'd rather say I don't outline in the usual way. I know my two characters inside and out at certain points in their lives, which also means I know the border conditions at these points. To go from one point to the next, I do a whole lot of reading non-fiction, because frankly real life can be so much more crazy than whatever I've so far read in fiction, which gives me tons and tons of ideas. It's just a question of picking the best fitting ideas to the story I want to tell.

That said, I have a notebook I carry everywhere, and I transfer ideas that occur along the way each evening into a not-so-little latex/text document (which is not really organised). I also keep a daily word count and write a rough sentence of where I stopped each day, which lets me see in retrospect certain patters—when I stopped, why I stopped, why this particular scene didn't work out.

Freeform writing worked for me for the very first 'chapter'/aka short story I wrote, but I found later on, that with my story's complexity it wasn't feasible to go without planning (in my head and these txt documents) at least five short-stories in advance. Going with my gut alone just made me re-write a whole bunch of words, which I don't mind, because words are cheap and my skills are far from the level of writing where I want them to be. It's just target practice.


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## ScarletM.Sinclaire (Jul 16, 2018)

I don't outline much. I write my story as it comes to mind, break, think about what else I can add onto the scene, and then write more. About the only thing I outline is future ideas. For instance, I can write about Mary Sue getting pregnant by some fallen angel named Joe Shmoe and now they have to figure out the consequences of their actions. As I'm writing the events that lead up to the pregnancy I'll have an idea and it'll be something like :"Oh my god, what if fallen angels weren't allowed to be with mortals? One of the consequences could be getting x, y, and z which in turn leads to this happening." And I'll just put in a  small note and save it for later, when I reach that part. 

  Other than that, I write as it comes to mind. For me its easier to focus on. I've tried outlines in the past and what ends up happening is I write something different from what I originally thought was going to happen.


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## storiesandpages (Jul 16, 2018)

I'm seeing a lot of people that don't outline.
I find that really interesting to say the least, as I've always been an outliner and a planner and I consider even my approach to be quite free-form.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 16, 2018)

My problems come about in the micro-details.
I have the skeleton of the story laid out in my head, but once you start getting granular by writing, I bump into little things that I had not considered.
I've never found a way around that problem. You can only plan and plot so much before it becomes writing-avoidance work.


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## luckyscars (Jul 17, 2018)

Whenever this subject comes up I always wish there was some way to measure each person's approach with the success rate once implemented. I should like a poll that asks: How many pieces have been completed using your chosen method? How long did it take you to finish? Did anybody actually enjoy reading what you wrote?

In writing the ends justify the means. Saying "I don't like to plan" does not mean you should not plan, or that your work would not benefit from it. How do you even know you are not a planner if you do not attempt to plan? Well, I think I know the answer...it is because you did try once, perhaps some years ago, and it did not work out. That is fine, but think about it rationally. Is it not equally likely that you just did not plan in the right way? Or perhaps it just wasn't a terribly good idea? Just because it did not work then are you 100% certain it would not work now?

It is always important to have the self-awareness to put aside ego or the notion of what is correct to change what does not work. Even Michelangelo took master classes from those he felt to be better artists. I know far fewer writers who can write an entire novel well without any plan than I know writers who say they can: Writers who out of bravado or impatience or laziness or over-confidence  inevitably struggle in aimless circles through umpteen drafts, ultimately either giving up or settling for an unsatisfactory ending and a wasted opportunity with a poorly structured book rife with plot-holes which nobody wants to read. That may not be you, but it might be. It could even be why you joined a writing forum in the first place...

On the other hand I also know of no writers whose work actually suffers from devising a plan upfront. At best it simply becomes an irrelevancy, a day or two of daydreaming that didn't actually need done in hindsight because you got lucky or maybe - yes - are not a planner. But so what? What's wrong with that? Don't act like it was a mistake to put aside a couple of days for outlining just in case you got stuck on Chapter 3. Doing so is no more a waste of time than is strapping on a life-jacket while standing on a sinking ship. You might not end up needing it, but you might, and chances are your plan, even if it ended up a million miles from your book, possibly helped in other ways. Perhaps it took off some of the pressure, or made you think through your characters. Point being that it is not a bad thing to plan ahead in any walk of life. 

I will always suggest writing some form of outline, or at least trying, and respectfully suggest that advice along the lines of "don't plan if you don't feel like it, not everybody needs to plan you know" while probably meant well is actually rather foolish.


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## storiesandpages (Jul 17, 2018)

So what do your outlines end up looking like Lucky?

I usually do a 4 act structure:

In the first act I usually clarify the impetus and the setting, the main characters I might write a brief blurb about each one.
Act 2 I specify the confrontation, and the main characters initial strategy
By act 3 is usually where I run into a little trouble, so I don't treat it as gospel, but I like to know what my character's new outlook is going to be following their low point
Act 4, obviously the climax and resolution

I'm sure this is all fairly standard stuff, just curious what other people's approach is.


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## Jack of all trades (Jul 17, 2018)

luckyscars said:


> Whenever this subject comes up I always wish there was some way to measure each person's approach with the success rate once implemented. I should like a poll that asks: How many pieces have been completed using your chosen method? How long did it take you to finish? Did anybody actually enjoy reading what you wrote?
> 
> In writing the ends justify the means. Saying "I don't like to plan" does not mean you should not plan, or that your work would not benefit from it. How do you even know you are not a planner if you do not attempt to plan? Well, I think I know the answer...it is because you did try once, perhaps some years ago, and it did not work out. That is fine, but think about it rationally. Is it not equally likely that you just did not plan in the right way? Or perhaps it just wasn't a terribly good idea? Just because it did not work then are you 100% certain it would not work now?
> 
> ...



It is foolish to believe there is one best way to write.

To play your little game, I once wrote an outline for a novel. The plot was complex. The characters were strong.  The book was never written. The tale was told in the outline. At least for me. No descriptions. No dialog. No action. Just a list. A sequence of events which I have in my mind. And there they shall stay. I have no desire to work on it. It feels finished to me.

By leaving everything unknown, except for the characters and the starting point, I am forced to think on my feet, just like my characters. Do I ever get stuck? Sometimes. But that's not a fatal condition!!

I challenge you to write a novel without a plan.


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## Squalid Glass (Jul 17, 2018)

I always start with an idea about an overarching arc and theme I would like to explore, then I see the very beginning and absolute ending, and then I begin to write. As I dive into the story, I begin to structure the plot more in-depth, usually settling on a chapter by chapter synopsis by about the halfway point, and then once the initial draft is done, I can go back and adjust accordingly. 

I like this thread a lot. Very informative.


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## luckyscars (Jul 17, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> It is foolish to believe there is one best way to write.
> 
> To play your little game, I once wrote an outline for a novel. The plot was complex. The characters were strong.  The book was never written. The tale was told in the outline. At least for me. No descriptions. No dialog. No action. Just a list. A sequence of events which I have in my mind. And there they shall stay. I have no desire to work on it. It feels finished to me.
> 
> ...



I categorically did not say there is one best way to write.

What I said was this: If you do not know for sure what works for you, if you do not know for sure that you can survive in the ocean without a life-jacket, it is foolish not to do something that may help you. In other words, unless you know for certain you are not a planner and have successfully finished a book previously that is akin to the one you are about to write, without planning and in a sensible amount of time, and enjoyed the process without too much hair-pulling...unless you can check all those boxes you are probably taking a risk.

Your individual lack of desire to work on something after planning is entirely idiosyncratic and of no relevance. Why should the fact planning your work failed for you on one occasion, with one story, mean it would fail for you now, with another? Perhaps the real problem was not that you planned but that you over-planned every detail and left nothing up to impulse which then took the creativity out? Or perhaps your technique of planning was poor and unsuited for the type of writer you are? Or perhaps on that occasion you spent far too much time at that stage (I seldom ever spent more than a day on outlining myself...) and you got fatigued? Or perhaps it wasn't an idea you really felt that enamored with in the first place? Maybe you just aren't actually that driven and prefer to think about writing than actually do it? Or, yes, maybe you really are not a planner as you say - and bully for you if so - or maybe you are but also happen to be a decent writer (though possibly not as good as you could be) and able to graft out a good story even though it had some gaping holes? Maybe you are blessed to have the sort of mind that is able to work through problems without being discouraged? I have no idea, and it does not matter. 

My argument is not based on opinions or feelings or personal experiences but on what seems to be logical. That is why I started out saying it is a pity there is no objective data to weigh the validity of advice. Obviously there is no demonstrably right or wrong approach to this, everything varies by individual. So what I am doing is making a kind of Pascals Wager type argument in which I say *taking a couple of days to sketch out a book on the off-chance it might help later is a better approach for a new writer who has never completed anything *than risking getting thousands or words in, tying up in a knot and eventually giving up.While it may or may not actually work in the end, writing a failed outline will probably not stop them from pursuing an idea they feel passionately about (unless they are you apparently...) and might very well be an important resource. It's basically an "all-of-the-above" strategy, but once you are in the ocean it is too late to put on the life-jacket. 

Please help me understand why that does not make sense to you.


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## Jack of all trades (Jul 17, 2018)

luckyscars said:


> I categorically did not say there is one best way to write.
> 
> What I said was this: If you do not know for sure what works for you, if you do not know for sure that you can survive in the ocean without a life-jacket, it is foolish not to do something that may help you. In other words, unless you know for certain you are not a planner and have successfully finished a book previously that is akin to the one you are about to write, without planning and in a sensible amount of time, and enjoyed the process without too much hair-pulling...unless you can check all those boxes you are probably taking a risk.
> 
> ...



It is completely possible to put on a life jacket in the ocean.

If everyone follows your advice, no one would ever try to write without a plan, and would never have the opportunity to discover if they are up to the task.

You did state categorically that everyone would benefit from a plan.

My personal experience is far more relevant for deciding how to approach future projects than your, or any one's, advice.

Please help me understand why that does not make sense to you.


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## Pete_C (Jul 17, 2018)

I am guessing that no-one made an advanced plan to cover all this squabbling...

The big issue here is semantics. There are people who plan meticulously. They write outlines, character definitions, story arcs, make maps, draw pictures of characters, develop detail right down to the conversations, observations and fine details. For a 100K word novel they write 500K words of notes.

Some people do a little less planning. They list the main characters, develop an outline and dive in to see where it takes them.

Some people do even less. They define a start and an end, and everything aims towards that end.

Some people do even less. They come up with an idea for story. Then they plough in.

It's all planning.

I sometimes think people who say they don't plan do it in some sort of affected way. 'Oh, I go where the moment takes me.' I'll bet a fiddle of gold that if that's what they really do, any reader will pretty much give up on it (your Mother saying it's a great read doesn't count).

If you have no idea of where you're going, then it's impossible to build in credible sub-plots, or to litter the story with little hooks and pointers that make sense.

Those that claim they don't plan often produce stories that are neither original nor engaging, because they follow traditional and well-trodden storylines.

If you don't know the ending you're heading towards, then the work can't be strong. If you do know the end you're heading towards, then you've planned.


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## Jack of all trades (Jul 17, 2018)

There's little difference between deciding on a subplot during the planning phase or during the writing phase, other than the number of words involved along the way.

This conversation is taking a very predictable path. It seems the planners are more threatened by those who wing it than pantsers are by those who outline.


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## Pete_C (Jul 17, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> There's little difference between deciding on a subplot during the planning phase or during the writing phase, other than the number of words involved along the way.



So, you do plan then...

You also assume planners have a 'planning phase'. Where did you get that notion? Experience?



Jack of all trades said:


> This conversation is taking a very predictable path. It seems the planners are more threatened by those who wing it than pantsers are by those who outline.



Methinks you're looking for a banner to fly, rather than anything else. You're the one screaming about feeling threatened whereas other people are voicing opinions.

Try it some time; it might work for you!


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## bdcharles (Jul 17, 2018)

Historically I struggle with planning. I actively dislike the idea of working out how everything's going to go. It actually makes me feel bad, so for better or worse I avoid it. Where's the joy in that, I ask myself. My characters can't hope to be convincing if they have to behave in such a restricted manner. But I think that is a matter of me framing it wrongly. If I consider the plot a goal rather than a foregone conclusion, then I can set the characters off on their endeavour. It's like a quest.

I set them waypoints too, lifted from little images that pop into my head. So for example, in my current WIP my MC wants to avenge a dead friend whose ancestral home has been stolen from him by elitist forces. That's her goal as things stand. She is also being pursued in her homeland. On the way, a floating city will be bombed and fall to the ground. Elsewhere, in the sky, in the distance, she will see a string of blue lights. She will find out what they are (I have some ideas about that). She will face off the head of the elitist forces and be betrayed to them, to her face, by an ally. How she and her associates get to these points is sort of down to her. I'll just do my best to chronicle what she does, I suppose, and clean up the mess.


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## Pete_C (Jul 17, 2018)

bdcharles said:


> Historically I struggle with planning. I actively dislike the idea of working out how everything's going to go. It actually makes me feel bad, so for better or worse I avoid it. Where's the joy in that, I ask myself. My characters can't hope to be convincing if they have to behave in such a restricted manner. But I think that is a matter of me framing it wrongly. If I consider the plot a goal rather than a foregone conclusion, then I can set the characters off on their endeavour. It's like a quest.
> 
> I set them waypoints too, lifted from little images that pop into my head. So for example, in my current WIP my MC wants to avenge a dead friend whose ancestral home has been stolen from him by elitist forces. That's her goal as things stand. She is also being pursued in her homeland. On the way, a floating city will be bombed and fall to the ground. Elsewhere, in the sky, in the distance, she will see a string of blue lights. She will find out what they are (I have some ideas about that). She will face off the head of the elitist forces and be betrayed to them, to her face, by an ally. How she and her associates get to these points is sort of down to her. I'll just do my best to chronicle what she does, I suppose, and clean up the mess.



I agree. My planning is very limited. I tend to have an idea with a goal which defines the general point of the story. I tend then to work backwards in my head to find the start point. That way I know where I intend to end up. From there on I'll define certain pivotal points in the story and I work towards these, but with the end goal in mind. I won't start writing a chapter until I know where its going. 

As and when ideas crop up I'll look at how to bring them in, but the pivotal points and the end goal are ever present.

I don't make notes or maps or even create character outlines. I tend to do all of that in my head, but I know the characters inside out before I put pen to paper, whether that be at the start of the novel or a chapter they appear in. 

Even if you have a vague idea of where you're going, it's planning.

The debate isn't whether people plan or don't plan; it's what they define as planning. In my opinion, I don't see a debate as to whether people plan or not. It's a moot point. We all plan. Some to a high degree, others less so, but we all plan.


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## bdcharles (Jul 17, 2018)

So glad I'm not alone! 



Pete_C said:


> I don't make notes or maps or even create character outlines. I tend to do all of that in my head, but I know the characters inside out before I put pen to paper, whether that be at the start of the novel or a chapter they appear in.



I am the same. I would no more do character sheets than I would for people I actually know. I get to know them, again, as I would real people, and I feel the same degree of feeling and connection towards my imaginary creations that I do for friends and family. More, sometimes. The doctor says its helping, a bit. 

Maps though. I write fantasy, so maps are totally a part of that territory. And I do make notes, otherwise I'd forget stuff. But my writing notes look alot like my work notes, so that's ok, they're just reminders.


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## Caden_S (Jul 17, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> My problems come about in the micro-details.
> I have the skeleton of the story laid out in my head, but once you start getting granular by writing, I bump into little things that I had not considered.
> I've never found a way around that problem.


For me, the answer to this quandary lies in imaging every possible outcome. Playing what-if games by the bucketful. If you're now asking how I find different what-if scenarios (because the brain has the tendency to go down trodden paths), my own answer is to listen to music with lyrics from different genres, and different themes. Think hardcore techno versus Chris de Burgh. I let my brain play with a short while listening to a random playlist, where I know the songs and lyrics so I don't really need to concentrate on the words but get saturated by the 'mood'. And sometimes (more often than you'd think) the lyrics of a song that prior absolutely didn't fit to the mood of the short suddenly nudge my brain down a new path. Do I make sense?



Ralph Rotten said:


> You can only plan and plot so much before it becomes writing-avoidance work.


Very true, and that's why I limit my planning/plotting to the absolute basics (age of MCs at the current short, name of location) during writing time. Planning is fine at any other time, but during dedicated writing time? Nope.


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## JustRob (Jul 17, 2018)

By coincidence I have recently been thinking about the interrelationships between fact, fiction and writing as something to address in a book that I might write. Our thoughts are effectively fiction until we transcribe them into reality in some way by acting on them. For writers this action may often result in text in the real world. I think the debate between planners and pantsers may arise simply from differing choices as to when this transcription into reality starts. It does seem unlikely that a pantser could simply sit down and start to write without any preconceptions in his mind. At minimum there would have to be unconscious thoughts that prompted him to decide that it was the right time to start writing. I think that this is the key difference then, that decision about when one should start writing.

No doubt a planner would construct a story outline and in all probability write it down. I have never done that because I am not a writer as such. No, I am merely a meticulous planner who rehearses his plans repeatedly in his mind without the need to write them down. If we are wise we all do that anyway in respect of our careers, our pastimes, our holidays, our personal relationships, in fact every aspect of our lives. It isn't anything special to fiction writing and there is probably no best approach to it. In other words, how we choose to write most likely reflects how we choose to lead our lives and conversely finding ways to improve our writing is likely to help us to improve our life skills. It is very evident in these forums that the two are closely related and both discussed here.

If I appear to be a pantser then that term does not describe my approach to writing but to life. When my mind was overwhelmed by a surge of thoughts in 2011 I had little idea what the outcome would be. The last thing that I expected it to be was a novel, given that I had never had any ambitions to be a writer. I would have expected a holiday or a new relationship or a shift in an old one or some new pastime in keeping with my past interests, but the best fit result of those thoughts at the time was a fiction story, so I wrote one. Before I ever started to write anything the entire story clearly already existed within my mind and that is how I realised what it must be. Isn't that how real writers work though? They just get on with their lives and maybe choose to gain a new experience because "there may be a book in it", but in reality it may turn out to be a new aspect of their life itself.

I can't explain how I outline a writing project because at the time that nothing but an outline exists in my mind I don't know that the outcome will be literature rather than some other part of my life. Personally I have found the best fantasies to have been the ones that I have chosen to incorporate into my real life instead of assuming that they had to remain fiction. Live the dream and/or write about it, but in either case first enjoy that dream and indulge in it at least in your mind to ensure that when you eventually share it with others they will too.

That may be a vague response to a specific question but I don't believe that truly creative writing is a by the book process.


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## Terry D (Jul 17, 2018)

All of you are wrong.

Except, of course, for your own writing.

I've seen this discussion devolve, in previous threads, as far as one member adamantly stating that the only way to truly write without a plan is by pure free-writing. His point was that even the idea of what word to use next in a sentence constituted a plan. Horseshit.

I plan very little. Just a few scene descriptions for the first few chapters to get me rolling, then I let the story take over. Often I keep an idea in my head about where the story is going, but that is fluid. If I surprise myself I'll surprise my readers. I have subplots, hints, and twists. Some planned (but not outlined) some unplanned. The unplanned ones often take my stories in unforeseen directions. I like that, and my readers have responded well (No, not family and friends, people who actually paid for the books and do not know me.). 

It's wrong to assume that unplanned writing is somehow 'less' than something planned. Many writers who are far more successful than anyone posting here write without a plan. One of the most vocal and well known is Stephen King, the mystery writer, Lawrence Block is another. Does that mean 'pantsing' is better than planning? Of course not. It just works well for them. 

This is an important question for new writers to figure out for themselves. These discussions can help new writers see that there are many ways to approach a project. I believe the most important take away from threads about planning should be; try different approaches and see which one works best for you. There is no best way, and there is certainly no one here who can make that decision for you. Remember, you don't know how skillful any of us are -- unless you've read our work -- so you don't know if we know a damned thing about this. I can promise the OP only one thing, some of the folks so willing to stand on a soap-box and beat their chests in support of their opinion are full of shit.

I might even be one of them.


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## Squalid Glass (Jul 17, 2018)

It's sad that a thread asking such a genuine question could so easily be derailed by those wishing to push their own agenda. This is not uncommon, mind you, in these kinds of discussions, as evidenced by some of the academic bickering present in the debate over process theory composition.

I agree with Terry. I also think the OP should do their best to take in all the discussion in this thread and then follow what works best for them.


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## luckyscars (Jul 18, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> It is completely possible to put on a life jacket in the ocean.
> 
> If everyone follows your advice, no one would ever try to write without a plan, and would never have the opportunity to discover if they are up to the task.
> 
> ...



I see we are not getting anywhere, so consider this the final word:

I thought it was obvious my advice was aimed at new writers who have not found what works best for them. The metaphor was not great to start off with, and is tiresome now, but I am speaking of non-swimmers putting on life-jackets. Anybody can do what they want. However there is only one best way for any given individual and nobody will say that waiting until you get stuck before realizing you need an outline is a good way to work. 

I maintain it is simply fatuous to suggest a novice writer beginning a novel with no firmly set idea of where the major plot is going/where their main characters intersect has an equally likely odds of completing a strong piece than a novice writer who dedicates at least some time to making sure they know what they are doing. However, without any objective data, it's basically up there with "Is there a god?" as far as pointless squabbles. I am happy to hear you have found your way.


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## Jack of all trades (Jul 18, 2018)

Terry D said:


> All of you are wrong.
> 
> Except, of course, for your own writing.
> 
> ...



Thank you, thank you, thank you.


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## Renaissance Man (Jul 18, 2018)

The most prolific writers I know or have seen give interviews and I myself either, 1) Write the whole book free form, often taking breaks to decide how I want of my characters messed up my plan for the story by asking/saying/doing the wrong thing, then if it's not good enough take a few nore editing passes, rip a section that takes it *far* away from my goal out and stash it in outtakes in case I want to salvage *something* out of it, or if the whole thing *starts* badly, (I'm in the middle of rewriting a novel because of that issue now), I have to start all over again and flip back and forth between the old and new, so plot-points I liked from the old can be incorporated into the new. In the case of the novel I'm working on its opening was forced and kind of modeled after an existing series. The rewrite is much more original in content and includes a key character I forgot to add in the original.

Writing is basically fluid. Sometimes I have an ending in mind and I try to force the story to get there. Sometimes that works. Often either I or someone reading it will notice that up until that ending scene it feels forced, with several inspired scenes that are compelling. Even co-writing which is similar to the RPG forum here, where my co-author and I divide the cast of characters is only good when at least *one* of us is inspired by the story and motivated to write it.

You don't use a hammer and nail with a swollen elbow on your hammer swinging arm. It makes just as little sense to write something you're *not* interested in writing to get over ailing creativity. Just like the swollen elbow creativity needs to be nursed back to health.


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## storiesandpages (Jul 18, 2018)

Squalid Glass said:


> It's sad that a thread asking such a genuine question could so easily be derailed by those wishing to push their own agenda. This is not uncommon, mind you, in these kinds of discussions, as evidenced by some of the academic bickering present in the debate over process theory composition.
> 
> I agree with Terry. I also think the OP should do their best to take in all the discussion in this thread and then follow what works best for them.



Yeah there's been little to no discussion about what methods people use to outline a story.
Only some people saying they don't outline (which isn't terribly helpful) and other people saying WHY they outline, which is also not helpful considering almost no one has actually mentioned what their concrete approach to outlining is.

But whatevs.


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## Squalid Glass (Jul 18, 2018)

I tried to outline my process as concretely as I could. Let me know if you think it needs further expansion to help with your OP.


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## storiesandpages (Jul 18, 2018)

Squalid Glass said:


> I tried to outline my process as concretely as I could. Let me know if you think it needs further expansion to help with your OP.



Yeah I know, _you_ did. I think you might have been the only one to do so lol.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 18, 2018)

I'd actually like to take this thread back a few pages to something Luckyscars said.
He said that it would be nice if there was a way to scientifically measure any of this, to see what really works. (sorta what he said...)

Actually there is; just go look at their body of work.
I admit it, I click on people's links and read their books, and look at their media and writing samples and published works.
I like to see how other writers write.
I like to know what level of writer I am talking with.  Don't wanna get caught lecturing out of my league, and don't wanna talk over a new guy.

My thinking is this; I'm not the best writer, I'm not the worst.  I post samples of my work regularly, and my works are easy to find on Amazon so other members can look at my stuff and decide if my advice is worthwhile.  Personally, I think that if I am going to go around rendering my opinion _ad nauseum_, then I should damned-well back that up with evidence of my abilities.  _Nut-up or shut-up, right?
_


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 18, 2018)

PS: Don't get all creeped out.  While I'm stalking all of you, I also leave book reviews on Amazon.


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## luckyscars (Jul 18, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> I'd actually like to take this thread back a few pages to something Luckyscars said.
> He said that it would be nice if there was a way to scientifically measure any of this, to see what really works. (sorta what he said...)
> 
> Actually there is; just go look at their body of work.
> ...



The obvious retort to that supremely intelligent point is to point at *insert name of prolific but critically dubious author here* and say ones productivity has no bearing on their merit as a writer. 

Well, yes and no. While it is obviously absurd to claim that having a large body of work grants you more knowledge of the craft than having a limited output (nobody in their right mind would say Danielle Steel knows more about the craftof writing than Harper Lee) I think what often gets overlooked is often the main priority for a new writer starting out isn't necessarily to write a great story, or even a good story, but simply something that is readable.

For many of us, forming a coherent narrative arc featuring a small cast of believable, though unexciting, characters and a calm-storm-return-to-calm is an attainable early goal. Finishing the work, particularly with one's fragile self-worth intact, the biggest hurdle. One can always redraft, can always revise, can always edit, can always throw the whole thing in the trash and start over if they hate it and that's all right. But the most difficult thing is to finish, and the most likely death of a writing career it he perceived inability to do so. 

At a bare minimum I would absolutely judge the merits of advice on whether to plan my work or not based on if the person(s) in question have actually completed anything within a reasonable time-scale and to a reasonable quality. If they had, I would then probably want to ask some serious questions of how this all worked on a day-to-day basis. Advice and opinions are not all created equal. You do not have to listen to anybody else's opinions, nor prove the validity of your own, but if you are going to decide not to plan your work at all on the basis of somebody on the internet saying it works for them...then it would be common sense to handle what they say with care.

 Otherwise, the Wager says your safest option (but not ONLY option) is to plan work in some form. I suggest one just grits their teeth, bashes it out, then shoves it in the proverbial back pocket. Once it is done you should be free to keep an open mind going in, safe in the knowledge you have something to fall back on if you do get stuck. 

But apparently saying this is to tell people how to write...


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## Squalid Glass (Jul 19, 2018)

Coming at it from an academic perspective, I think the very concept of giving advice for writing is a contradiction because, A: most inexperienced writers NEED to start with a structure before developing their own approach, but B: the worst thing a writing teacher/coach/mentor can do is pigeonhole a new writer into the mentor's process. The teacher must be very careful about how they instruct the new writer to make sure that writer knows the benefit of developing a plan while not adhering to dogma. Therefore, the best thing we can do is offer our own approaches with the caveat that while these approaches work for us, there is no one way to go about writing or the teaching of writing.


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## storiesandpages (Jul 19, 2018)

luckyscars said:


> The obvious retort to that supremely intelligent point is to point at *insert name of prolific but critically dubious author here* and say ones productivity has no bearing on their merit as a writer.
> 
> Well, yes and no. While it is obviously absurd to claim that having a large body of work grants you more knowledge of the craft than having a limited output (nobody in their right mind would say Danielle Steel knows more about the craftof writing than Harper Lee) I think what often gets overlooked is often the main priority for a new writer starting out isn't necessarily to write a great story, or even a good story, but simply something that is readable.
> 
> ...



I agree.
And well also of note is this: For any bit of advice there will ALWAYS be something to say for the outliers, for those who are the exception and not the rule.
But that's NOT who advice is for.

Advice, especially critical advice, should be for the masses.
Stephen King isn't going to pop up on this forum one day and ask us what we think about outlines.


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## luckyscars (Jul 19, 2018)

Squalid Glass said:


> Coming at it from an academic perspective, I think the very concept of giving advice for writing is a contradiction because, A: most inexperienced writers NEED to start with a structure before developing their own approach, but B: the worst thing a writing teacher/coach/mentor can do is pigeonhole a new writer into the mentor's process. The teacher must be very careful about how they instruct the new writer to make sure that writer knows the benefit of developing a plan while not adhering to dogma. Therefore, the best thing we can do is offer our own approaches with the caveat that while these approaches work for us, there is no one way to go about writing or the teaching of writing.



One major point, which seems to have been missed, is that a process need not be fixed in stone from Day One. The author is free to change their method at any time and for any reason. Many writers outline certain projects while others they jot down on proverbial postcards. You don't have to have a single view.

When I say a new writer ought to plan their work, I am not saying that with the idea in mind that they should plan all their work forever. That would be absurd. I am simply saying it is the most sensible technique when no technique has yet been settled on.


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## Squalid Glass (Jul 19, 2018)

I completely agree with your last sentence. 

The point of the contradiction I outlined, however, is that in process theory, there really is only one way of doing things, and that is to use a set combination of pre-planning, outlining, peer critique, drafting, and editing. Though the theory concerns itself mostly with formal writing, it applies to the way we teach all children how to express thought through writing (in America, at least). And the danger in that is that what is learned first is, for most people, a difficult dogma to break. 

I am of the mindset that, when learning how to write creatively or when honing one's skills, it is best to simultaneously practice multiple strategies as best you can. This is why in my creative writing classes, we do stream of consciousness writing and heavy process writing every day.


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## JustRob (Jul 19, 2018)

Terry D said:


> All of you are wrong.
> 
> Except, of course, for your own writing.



The question put was "What is _your_ approach ..." so the answers certainly ought to have addressed just one's own writing. There was no question as to what is right or wrong, only what undeniably is in respect of each of us.


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## Newman (Jul 19, 2018)

storiesandpages said:


> This is something I've been wondering myself for a while. I usually just grab a pen and a piece of paper and start writing concepts I have in mind, and once I can narrow my ideas down to something more concrete, I break it out into a rough, 4 act structure.
> 
> My approach is not structured, to say the least, it's pretty free-form, and it's something I'd like to get a better handle on so... what is your approach?



I outline around journey, change, arcs, theme, premise etc. The Two Physical Journeys system is quite good.


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## Jack of all trades (Jul 19, 2018)

JustRob said:


> The question put was "What is _your_ approach ..." so the answers certainly ought to have addressed just one's own writing. There was no question as to what is right or wrong, only what undeniably is in respect of each of us.



Since the argument that resulted became "what is the best approach for all (new) writers", Terry is right. There is no single approach the is best across the board, even for new writers.

I wrote a novel and a disjointed collection of scenes that lacked any outline or plan. Those scenes ended up forming a novel. And I had no prior writing background, no class, and wasn't even a member of a forum at the time. It kills me that it was lost to a USB chip failure back in March. So, no, I can't prove my claim. Believe it or not as you wish.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 19, 2018)

Squalid Glass said:


> I am of the mindset that, when learning how to write creatively or when honing one's skills, it is best to simultaneously practice multiple strategies as best you can. This is why in my creative writing classes, we do stream of consciousness writing and heavy process writing every day.




You are correct that each writer needs to find their own process and style.  You are also correct that developing writers should try many different writing styles.
But keep in mind that those exercises you are doing in class are intended for educational purposes.  Stream of consciousness is a great way to practice and get the juices flowing, and it even works for short storys and such, but once you start getting to bigger works...100k words, 150k...you need to have a plan, at least a solid skeleton of a story, or you will paint yourself into a corner.  Personally, I use Stream of Consciousness within an outlined framework.

Really it is a logistical thing more than a writing thing. A book is data, and that much data can be a hassle to manage with a mere human brain.  150k is a lotta words to not have serious plot discrepancies.  You write better when you know where you are going.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 19, 2018)

luckyscars said:


> Well, yes and no. While it is obviously absurd to claim that having a large body of work grants you more knowledge of the craft than having a limited output (nobody in their right mind would say Danielle Steel knows more about the craftof writing than Harper Lee) I think what often gets overlooked is often the main priority for a new writer starting out isn't necessarily to write a great story, or even a good story, but simply something that is readable.




I was not saying that the size of their body was important, so much as the content.  I have seen guys with 9 books that were all crap, or new writers wit a single book that clearly showed the chops.  In fact I just reviewed one the other day.  First book, member of the forum, he has shown the skills with a single entry.  

Writing forums are notorious for Dunning-Kruger syndrome.  Before you take advice from some random schmuck on the internet, you should look at their writing.  Their body of work does play into that because it speaks to their experience level.  A writer with 20 published works has a certain amount of authority as compared to some guy with 1 (assuming that those 20 books were not complete turds.)  I take all of these things into account when I weigh advice in any forum.  





PS: Thank you for the hearty praise, Scars.


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## storiesandpages (Jul 19, 2018)

Newman said:


> I outline around journey, change, arcs, theme, premise etc. The Two Physical Journeys system is quite good.



What's the two physical journeys system?


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## Squalid Glass (Jul 19, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> You are correct that each writer needs to find their own process and style. You are also correct that developing writers should try many different writing styles.
> But keep in mind that those exercises you are doing in class are intended for educational purposes. Stream of consciousness is a great way to practice and get the juices flowing, and it even works for short storys and such, but once you start getting to bigger works...100k words, 150k...you need to have a plan, at least a solid skeleton of a story, or you will paint yourself into a corner. Personally, I use Stream of Consciousness within an outlined framework.
> 
> Really it is a logistical thing more than a writing thing. A book is data, and that much data can be a hassle to manage with a mere human brain. 150k is a lotta words to not have serious plot discrepancies. You write better when you know where you are going.



 Jack Kerouac might disagree with that.


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## JustRob (Jul 19, 2018)

JustRob said:


> The question put was "What is _your_ approach ..." so the answers certainly ought to have addressed just one's own writing. There was no question as to what is right or wrong, only what undeniably is in respect of each of us.





Jack of all trades said:


> Since the argument that resulted became "what is the best approach for all (new) writers", Terry is right. There is no single approach the is best across the board, even for new writers.



Many threads mutate into discussions of more general subjects, often ones that have been covered elsewhere before, so I just focus on the original subject and ignore the inevitable ripples that the first splash causes.


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## Terry D (Jul 19, 2018)

JustRob said:


> The question put was "What is _your_ approach ..." so the answers certainly ought to have addressed just one's own writing. There was no question as to what is right or wrong, only what undeniably is in respect of each of us.



My reply was in response to the dynamics of the thread at the time I posted it. Threads often tend to diverge from the specifics of the OP and I'm not aware of any rule requiring every response to address the specifics of the OP, so I'm a bit confused as to the point you are trying to make, when, in fact, your own post (#29) discussed the 'pansting vs. planning' discussion and ignored the OP's original question also.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 19, 2018)

Squalid Glass said:


> Jack Kerouac might disagree with that.





Oh, there's always that guy who refers to one single outlyer as evidence against a theory. 
That's not discussion, its strategic conversation.


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## storiesandpages (Jul 19, 2018)

Terry D said:


> Threads often tend to diverge from the specifics of the OP and I'm not aware of any rule requiring every response to address the specifics of the OP



Maybe that's a problem.

Threads shouldn't break down into mush by the 10th post, maybe by the 100th, but not the 10th.

People also shouldn't reply with something of no value like "I don't know" (in what universe is that helpful?).

Just my two cents.


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## Squalid Glass (Jul 19, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Oh, there's always that guy who refers to one single outlyer as evidence against a theory.
> That's not discussion, its strategic conversation.



Please. My point, from the start, was that one must be careful when offering absolutisims  to beginning writers. When it comes to the strategy of writing, it seems like you and I agree. But in regard to instructing other writers, it’s foolish to push one method over the other. Such an approach has a tendency to stifle creativity.


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## storiesandpages (Jul 19, 2018)

Squalid Glass said:


> Please. My point, from the start, was that one must be careful when offering absolutisims  to beginning writers. When it comes to the strategy of writing, it seems like you and I agree. But in regard to instructing other writers, it’s foolish to push one method over the other. Such an approach has a tendency to stifle creativity.



Such an approach sounds like an English major.

Look, I think we can all see the merits to your argument.

But most people are the rule and not the exception, and advice should cater to that.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 19, 2018)

Nothing stifles creativity as much as rejection letters. 

No there are no absolutes...but there are a whole lotta Best Practices, and these are what you hear from writers like me. Sure, there are prolly a few writers out there who could write a Gone With The Wind without planning, but that's only Tony Stark (as in "...but I'm not Tony Stark.")  

If you have supernatural powers then you can write any way you please. But if you ain't Tony Stark, then you may consider the advice of experienced writers. I certainly do.


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## Squalid Glass (Jul 19, 2018)

I agree with best practices. I’m not arguing that. As I said, I’m just arguing against absolutist teaching methodologies. I don’t think we’re very far from one another in our arguments here.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 19, 2018)

Squalid Glass said:


> I agree with best practices. I’m not arguing that. As I said, I’m just arguing against absolutist teaching methodologies. I don’t think we’re very far from one another in our arguments here.




Who proposed absolutist teaching methodologies?  Twasn't me.
I've always made it known that my opinion is my opinion, and a suggestion is just that; a suggestion.
I do not claim to be the best writer in the world, but I offer samples of my writing so people can gauge how to weigh my advice.
_In fact I think I said just that in another post two days ago._
My ways are not the only way, but as a mentor I try to forewarn new writers of mistakes they will make.

Ordinary people learn from their own mistakes. But the smart man learns from the mistakes of others.


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## Snelbrouler (Jul 20, 2018)

I look at something, and I think "Hey, what if that thing came to life and tried to kill me?"

Usually, I am surprised to find just how many ways a seemingly mundane object can become a vicious murderer.
This often backfires when I look at family members or loved ones.


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## Squalid Glass (Jul 20, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Who proposed absolutist teaching methodologies?  Twasn't me.
> I've always made it known that my opinion is my opinion, and a suggestion is just that; a suggestion.
> I do not claim to be the best writer in the world, but I offer samples of my writing so people can gauge how to weigh my advice.
> _In fact I think I said just that in another post two days ago._
> ...



I completely agree.


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## luckyscars (Jul 20, 2018)

Without conducting a close re-read of all posts on this thread, I am fairly confident that nobody who contributed at any point said anything that was absolutist in any way, shape or form. I am pretty sure nobody at any point said "this is how all people should do it and if they do not they are wrong". 

I would suggest anybody who at any point went out of their way to create a post stating something along the lines of "there's no one way you know" or "everybody should figure it out for themselves" or "don't let anybody tell you what to do" is guilty of what is, at best, stating the most basic of writing truisms or, at worst, indulging in some rather unimaginative virtue-signalling aimed to trigger arguments. 

This is a rather good example of the problem of people not actually reading opinions before deciding how to most eloquently poke holes in them. Rather unfortunate, since several contributors did make some excellent points.


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## Pete_C (Jul 20, 2018)

storiesandpages said:


> Threads shouldn't break down into mush by the 10th post, maybe by the 100th, but not the 10th.



So, do you consider yourself the arbiter of what constitutes 'mush' and what is of value? I only ask because you started the thread with a very open and general question. You didn't ask anything specific; just what people did. Ask a question like that and you'll get varied answers and debate on those answers if someone tries to talk down the opinions of others. Ask a mushy question; you'll get mushy answers. 

Interestingly, post 10, where it turned to 'mush' according to your high standards, was by you. Just saying...



storiesandpages said:


> People also shouldn't reply with something of no value like "I don't know" (in what universe is that helpful?).



Here's a thing; it might not be helpful but it might be honest. When I structure a story I don't keep copious notes about what I'm doing so I'm armed with a detailed list should someone on a forum ask an open mushy question. I do what I do almost unconsciously, because that's what I do everyday of my life. I don't teach people to write; I write. I don't write or talk about writing; I write. Therefore the processes I have are second nature. 

Some people might not have the time or energy to think it through and offer advice to others. As such, their honest answer might be vague (I don't see any answers as vapid as you suggest). I bet some, having spent time answering your question only to see you dismiss their answers as unhelpful or mush won't bother again.

Unfortunately, you don't get to dictate the quality of responses, nor do you have a right to belittle those you don't like.


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## storiesandpages (Jul 20, 2018)

Pete_C said:


> So, do you consider yourself the arbiter of what constitutes 'mush' and what is of value? I only ask because you started the thread with a very open and general question. You didn't ask anything specific; just what people did. Ask a question like that and you'll get varied answers and debate on those answers if someone tries to talk down the opinions of others. Ask a mushy question; you'll get mushy answers.
> 
> Interestingly, post 10, where it turned to 'mush' according to your high standards, was by you. Just saying...
> 
> ...



Thanks for proving my point, Pete.

You'd all rather argue and bicker over minutia than to discuss the actual art of writing.

I've only been a member of this forum for like a week, and I'm already sick of it.

I'm going to be joining another forum. Adios.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 21, 2018)

Pete_C said:


> So, do you consider yourself the arbiter of what constitutes 'mush' and what is of value? I only ask because you started the thread with a very open and general question. You didn't ask anything specific; just what people did. Ask a question like that and you'll get varied answers and debate on those answers if someone tries to talk down the opinions of others. Ask a mushy question; you'll get mushy answers.
> 
> Interestingly, post 10, where it turned to 'mush' according to your high standards, was by you. Just saying...
> 
> ...






That did seem a little _ad hominem_...


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