# Second Person vs. Third or First



## live. die. be. (Jan 20, 2013)

I recieved a comment on a story I'd posted on this site, and it got me thinking.

What is the opinion of people on WF about second person POV?

Me, personally, I love it. I find it brings the reader closer, that it's more intimate. I think that because it's not as widely used, it can make a simple piece of work seem fresh, or unexpected. I adore second person.

Now, what are your thoughts on it?


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## Deleted member 49710 (Jan 20, 2013)

I like using second person; for me it implies both a distancing and a relationship of intimacy and hospitality, openness to someone who is different from the self. It's common in poetry and lyrics so gets associated with a more poetic, subjective voice. I do think it's best in relatively small doses though, and am not sure I'd agree with the idea that it can freshen up a tired concept. Something that's boring in 1st person isn't going to be new in 2nd, IMO.


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## live. die. be. (Jan 20, 2013)

> Something that's boring in 1st person isn't going to be new in 2nd, IMO.


 Well, of course, if something is boring, then it's boring. But I had said _simple_, which is different. Something can be simple without sounding boring


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## Ghosty (Jan 20, 2013)

Personally, I find that using second-person narration is a bit 'gimmicky'. It has to be done 'just right' for it to work. Some things that you might be able to get by with in first- or third-person narration might not be quite acceptable in second-person. The only really good second-person works that I can think of right now, really, are the Choose Your Own Adventure series.

This might just be me being overly conventional, though


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## live. die. be. (Jan 20, 2013)

"Gimmicky" in what way? That's rather vague, could you clarify that a little more?



> The only really good second-person works that I can think of right now, really, are the Choose Your Own Adventure series.


 I 100% disagree with you. Second person can be used for entire stories, if done right. I write mostly in second person, and what I write is not Choose Your Own Adventure stories.


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## TheSaintsAreComing (Jan 20, 2013)

I was never much a fan of the second-person. It's difficult to write well in, in my opinion, and very few do.


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## Leyline (Jan 20, 2013)

Second person is most often distracting. It can be done well, but usually when the writer is striving for a universality of sorts. 'You' is a powerful word that places the reader into the story. If the writer then tries to tell the reader he or she is a one armed lizard woman from Bangladesh, the reader will be dumped out of the story if he or she does not self-identify as a one armed lizard woman from Bangladesh.


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## live. die. be. (Jan 20, 2013)

> Second person is most often distracting. It can be done well, but usually when the writer is striving for a universality of sorts.


 _This _is what I aim for when writing in second person. I use it because it can be powerful, I use it to have an emotional impact on the reader.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Jan 20, 2013)

Leyline said:


> Second person is most often distracting. It can be done well, but usually when the writer is striving for a universality of sorts. 'You' is a powerful word that places the reader into the story. If the writer then tries to tell the reader he or she is a one armed lizard woman from Bangladesh, the reader will be dumped out of the story if he or she does not elf-identify as a one armed lizard woman from Bangladesh.


See, I never take the "you" as referring to me--"I" either remains me or it's an implied narrator, since there can't be a "you" without an "I". "You" is a person who "I" is trying very hard to understand, is how I interpret it.


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## Leyline (Jan 20, 2013)

live. die. be. said:


> _This _is what I aim for when writing in second person. I use it because it can be powerful, I use it to have an emotional impact on the reader.



And that's perfectly valid. But at length, universality quite often becomes _vague_. It's tough to fashion distinctive characters when you're constantly demanding the reader to self-identify with a featureless pronoun.

As for distracting, the very first sentence of the story you posted dumped me out of the narrative:



> _There are certain things that you could never bring yourself to believe in. They included: death, and hatred, and loss._



I thought: 'No, I've always believed in those things.' The only emotional impact I felt was a slight annoyance that someone was telling me things about myself I knew to be untrue. 

I'm not telling you to not use second-person, of course. Your story, your choice. I'm just saying that I (and quite a few other readers) will find it distracting. That said, I'm always willing to give a story a chance and would be delighted if a second-person POV tale came along that just knocked my socks off.


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## Leyline (Jan 20, 2013)

lasm said:


> See, I never take the "you" as referring to me--"I" either remains me or it's an implied narrator, since there can't be a "you" without an "I". "You" is a person who "I" is trying very hard to understand, is how I interpret it.



You are one of the few writers who has ever gotten that to come across, ma'am. 

And I still found it a little distracting, to be honest.


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## live. die. be. (Jan 20, 2013)

> Your story, your choice.


 Of course. And your opinion, your choice. I will take what you've said into account.


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## Jon M (Jan 20, 2013)

Write in Second Person quite a lot. I like the hypnotic quality, the somewhat pathological, desperate feeling it has. Have read a lot of these kinds of stories. Some just cannot be written any other way -- the impact won't be the same. 

Critique of the narrative style has always struck me as somewhat idiotic. I've mentioned it elsewhere, but: you wouldn't assume the narrator of a First Person story is the same as the author; similarly, the author of a Second Person story is not necessarily trying to put you, the reader, into the 'you-character'. It is just another way of referring to a character in the story.


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## live. die. be. (Jan 20, 2013)

> the impact won't be the same.


 I agree with you, it gives stories a different sort of emotional impact that you can't get in first or third.



> It is just another way of referring to a character in the story.


 That's the way I use the POV; to refer to a character. I don't think that many people can get past the idea that it's not addressing them as a reader, which means that they tend not to get the impact intended at all. And that is unfortunate.


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## Leyline (Jan 20, 2013)

Jon M said:


> Critique of the narrative style has always struck me as somewhat idiotic.



Gee, thanks. 



> I've mentioned it elsewhere, but: you wouldn't assume the narrator of a First Person story is the same as the author; similarly, the author of a Second Person story is not necessarily trying to put you, the reader, into the 'you-character'. It is just another way of referring to a character in the story.



I disagree. There is a commonality of storytelling that first and third draws on. You hear stories from the day you're born narrated in first and third. The only place you hear 2nd is in mostly obnoxious, pretentious lit-fic by people who call others idiotic for disliking a narrative style.


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## live. die. be. (Jan 20, 2013)

> There is a commonality of storytelling that first and third draws on.


 Yes, the addressing of a character. Which second person has, just in a different form.



> The only place you hear 2nd is in mostly obnoxious, pretentious lit-fic by people who call others idiotic for disliking a narrative style.


 Why, you seem to be getting a little riled up. Also, I happen to _like _​lit-fic.


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## Leyline (Jan 20, 2013)

live. die. be. said:


> Yes, the addressing of a character. Which second person has, just in a different form.



And it doesn't work for me, just as it doesn't work for a vast amount of others. All the theorizing and explanation in the world will not change that fact. And it's a lazy writer who blames a reader for not 'getting' their oh-so lit'ry piece.



> Why, you seem to be getting a little riled up. Also, I happen to _like _​lit-fic.



Being called idiotic generally does that to me.


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## moderan (Jan 20, 2013)

I concur with the notion that second person is best in small doses unless you're Gene Wolfe. It's associated in my mind with pretense and a certain degree of formality-it usually seems studied, like Bret Easton Ellis' work. Very mannered despite the subject matter.


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## live. die. be. (Jan 20, 2013)

> And it's a lazy writer who blames a reader for not 'getting' their oh-so lit'ry piece.


 I'm not blaming any readers, I understand that some people cannot read second person without thinking that the narrative is addressing them, but I _also_ know that there _are_ people out there who do understand, and do enjoy reading stories written in second person. Just as there are people out there who write and enjoy lit-fic, and ones who don't. 

But that is _fine_, because there will always be people who like, and dislike _everything_.



> Being called idiotic generally does that to me.



Well, being called pretentious and obnoxious does it to me too, dear.


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## Kyle R (Jan 20, 2013)

I write all my drafts in second person.

Then I change it to first or third when I post for feedback or critiques. For some reason second person gets my creative juices flowing--perhaps it's because it implies I already have a reader, so I feel obliged to continue the story, lest they throw fruit at me. 

As for reading first, second, or third, I have no real preference. I consider them all just different ways of telling a story. As long as it's not done poorly, the POV tends to disappear for me as I lose myself in the storytelling.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Jan 20, 2013)

I wonder why 2nd person annoys people in prose so much when it is so easily accepted in lyrics and poetry though. Like I have never listened to Prince and thought, "When I was yours?! What?" Seems odd.


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## Leyline (Jan 20, 2013)

moderan said:


> I concur with the notion that second person is best in small doses unless you're Gene Wolfe. It's associated in my mind with pretense and a certain degree of formality-it usually seems studied, like Bret Easton Ellis' work. Very mannered despite the subject matter.



There's really nothing Gene Wolfe can't get away with. I firmly believe he could begin a story with 'As you know, Bob...' and end it with '..and their names were Adam and Eve," And I'd probably applaud.


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## Jon M (Jan 20, 2013)

Leyline said:


> Gee, thanks.


You're not the only person to criticize the narrative style. Pretty much in every thread about this topic there are people making the same criticisms. So Second Person is a gimmick, says the guy whose experience of the style boils down to Choose Your Own Adventure. What else is there to say other than, "Go read DeLillo's _Videotape_, or even Chris Miller's _Angels Call In Strange Disguise_, available here in the workshop, let it blow your pants off, and then we'll talk."

It isn't the narrative's problem if people botch the interpretation.


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## Leyline (Jan 20, 2013)

live. die. be. said:


> I'm not blaming any readers, I understand that some people cannot read second person without thinking that the narrative is addressing them, but I _also_ know that there _are_ people out there who do understand, and do enjoy reading stories written in second person. Just as there are people out there who write and enjoy lit-fic, and ones who don't.



I've probably forgotten more lit-fic than you've ever read.



> Well, being called pretentious and obnoxious does it to me too, dear.



I wasn't talking to you. The quoted part is a hint.

And don't call me dear, kid.


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## live. die. be. (Jan 20, 2013)

> I wonder why 2nd person annoys people in prose so much when it is so easily accepted in lyrics and poetry though.


 Because people accept what they are used to, and tend to dislike the unfamiliar.


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## moderan (Jan 20, 2013)

lasm said:


> I wonder why 2nd person annoys people in prose so much when it is so easily accepted in lyrics and poetry though. Like I have never listened to Prince and thought, "When I was yours?! What?" Seems odd.


Because it is so hard to do right. Therefore it seems pretentious. Like prog-rock.



Leyline said:


> There's really nothing Gene Wolfe can't get away with. I firmly believe he could begin a story with 'As you know, Bob...' and end it with '..and their names were Adam and Eve," And I'd probably applaud.



Agreed.



KyleColorado said:


> I write all my drafts in second person.
> 
> Then I change it to first or third when I post for feedback or  critiques. For some reason second person gets my creative juices  flowing--perhaps it's because it implies I already have a reader, so I  feel obliged to continue the story, lest they throw fruit at me.
> 
> ...



I did that myself for a long time. But it was more exercise than  anything else. I prefer first, but any perspective is effective in the  right hands.

Did find one I did in second here at wf, for the LM, which is where I just love to experiment (it's on this page).


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## moderan (Jan 20, 2013)

***


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## Leyline (Jan 20, 2013)

Jon M said:


> You're not the only person to criticize the narrative style. Pretty much in every thread about this topic there are people making the same criticisms. So Second Person is a gimmick, says the guy whose experience of the style boils down to Choose Your Own Adventure. What else is there to say other than, "Go read DeLillo's _Videotape_, or even Chris Miller's _Angels Call In Strange Disguise_, available here in the workshop, let it blow your pants off, and then we'll talk."



I've read everything Chris has put on this site from the day he joined. Chris is Chris. Others cant do what he does. I consider Delilo over-rated and dull, for example. Chris is a far superior writer.



> It isn't the narrative's problem if people botch the interpretation.



LOL! Poor little misunderstood narrative, eh. What rot.


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## live. die. be. (Jan 20, 2013)

> I've probably forgotten more lit-fic than you've ever read.


 That says quite a bit about your appreciation of literature. It also says that you're going to dismiss any argument that I, or anyone else, comes up with to defend writing in second person. Which means that there's really no need for you to continue to disagree, don't you think?



> I wasn't talking to you. The quoted part is a hint.
> 
> And don't call me dear, kid.


 It may not have been directed at me, but I think that it could apply. In any case, insulting.

Do not condescend me by calling me a kid. I have no less worth because I'm not as old as you.


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## moderan (Jan 20, 2013)

Leyline said:


> I've read everything Chris has put on this site from the day he joined. Chris is Chris. Others cant do what he does. I consider Delilo over-rated and dull, for example. Chris is a far superior writer.


Absolutely. I've never finished anything DeLillo did. Ever. Or Donald Barthelme, for that matter.


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## Leyline (Jan 20, 2013)

live. die. be. said:


> That says quite a bit about your appreciation of literature. It also says that you're going to dismiss any argument that I, or anyone else, comes up with to defend writing in second person. Which means that there's really no need for you to continue to disagree, don't you think?



It doesn't say anything at all about either of those things, actually. But yes, I will dismiss those arguments because they're not arguments at all -- they're excuses. This is all _opinion_. As I said from the off -- keep writing in second person. But don't be surprise when people say 'I didn't finish this because I hate second person.' This is an eternally recurring discussion and it always ends the same way -- with most people saying 'I don't like it.' You're not going to argue people out of their opinions.



> It may not have been directed at me, but I think that it could apply. In any case, insulting.



Hey, apply it all you like. Just remember it's _you_ doing the application.



> Do not condescend me by calling me a kid. I have no less worth because I'm not as old as you.



Oh, and a snarky 'dear' isn't condescending?


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## moderan (Jan 20, 2013)




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## live. die. be. (Jan 20, 2013)

> But yes, I will dismiss those arguments because they're not arguments at all -- they're excuses.


 False. There have been arguments presented, but you've dismissed them. With excuses. Pot calling the kettle black?



> But don't be surprise when people say 'I didn't finish this because I hate second person.'


 I honestly _expect _that many people will say that. But at the same time, there will be some who read to the end, and get the impact. I don't mind if people stop reading, it's their choice.




> Oh, and a snarky 'dear' isn't condescending?


 Tit for tat, dear.




> You're not going to argue people out of their opinions.


 I don't expect to. I don't expect people to change their opinions. I never said that I did.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Jan 20, 2013)

live. die. be. said:


> Because people accept what they are used to, and tend to dislike the unfamiliar.


It's really not that unusual or strange to most people who read widely. And some people are quite well-read and familiar with the idea, and still do not like it, as Leyline shows. I don't understand the objection, but then some people do not understand how I can dislike black olives, so I guess we're even.


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## tepelus (Jan 20, 2013)

I think Second POV has its place. It depends on the story, or scene in a story, which is the case for me. I write in 3rd person because it is what's most comfortable for me, but there is one scene in my novel where I go into 2nd person because I think it portrays what I want the scene to feel to the reader the best. Of course, I don't know if it works or not since I've not had anyone read it, but I like to think it does. I use it in a hypnotic dream sequence where the hypnotist is leading the other character through a dream, and she tells him what he is seeing, and feeling and all of that through this dream.


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## moderan (Jan 20, 2013)

2nd person is terrific for "dream sequences". I agree. I've used that device a couple of times to good effect. As a break from, say, third omni, it has some very interesting fx. In one story, I had a third omni pov, very distant and almost clinical, and in the dream sequence you're looking at second, and very immediate. Very dramatic.


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## Leyline (Jan 20, 2013)

moderan said:


> 2nd person is terrific for "dream sequences". I agree. I've used that device a couple of times to good effect. As a break from, say, third omni, it has some very interesting fx. In one story, I had a third omni pov, very distant and almost clinical, and in the dream sequence you're looking at second, and very immediate. Very dramatic.



Second person can and has been used to great effect, many times. I've never claimed otherwise -- even my snarkiest comment was qualified with 'mostly.' In addition to Wolfe, who you mentioned, Kelly Link used it gloriously in her story 'Flying Lessons.' But even that was a narrative device.

Here's a question: if second-person isn't actually the writer describing the actions of the reader, is it really even a valid POV? Isn't it then just a modified first or third? Basically an unreliable narrator?

I've used it twice that way: in sections of my story "Why I Stole Your Identity" and in my entry to the second-person themed LM:  "In The Hall Of Kings, Hungover," and I always assumed I was playing a trick and not actually using second person at all.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Jan 20, 2013)

Leyline said:


> Second person can and has been used to great effect, many times. I've never claimed otherwise -- even my snarkiest comment was qualified with 'mostly.' In addition to Wolfe, who you mentioned, Kelly Link used it gloriously in her story 'Flying Lessons.' But even that was a narrative device.
> 
> Here's a question: if second-person isn't actually the writer describing the actions of the reader, is it really even a valid POV? Isn't it then just a modified first or third? Basically an unreliable narrator?


I think it's a variant on first in which the narrator is mostly obscured, but I think the same could be said of third person. There's a narrator somewhere, even if there's no clear self-reference anywhere in the text. Might just be my view though.


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## live. die. be. (Jan 20, 2013)

> Here's a question: if second-person isn't actually the writer describing the actions of the reader, is it really even a valid POV? Isn't it then just a modified first or third? Basically an unreliable narrator?


 I still think that you don't understand what second person POV is. By definition: The second-person narrative is a narrative mode in which the protagonist or another main character is referred to by employment of second-person personal pronouns and other kinds of addressing forms, for example the English second-person pronoun "you"or "your".

It has nothing to do with describing the actions of the reader.


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## Leyline (Jan 20, 2013)

live. die. be. said:


> I still think that you don't understand what second person POV is. By definition: The second-person narrative is a narrative mode in which the protagonist or another main character is referred to by employment of second-person personal pronouns and other kinds of addressing forms, for example the English second-person pronoun "you"or "your".
> 
> It has nothing to do with describing the actions of the reader.



Nice un-attributed cut and paste from Wikipedia there. 

So tell me then, as per your original post, how this 'brings the reader closer, that it's more intimate' when it is an intentional adding of another level of narrative distance?


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## live. die. be. (Jan 20, 2013)

> So tell me then, as per your original post, how this 'brings the reader closer, that it's more intimate' when it is an intentional adding of another level of narrative distance?


 Why should I? Whatever I say, you're just going to be dismissive and scornful. I see no reason for me to justify my opinion to you anymore.


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## Leyline (Jan 20, 2013)

live. die. be. said:


> Why should I? Whatever I say, you're just going to be dismissive and scornful. I see no reason for me to justify my opinion to you anymore.



It's probably not wise to ask for others opinions, then.


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## Leyline (Jan 20, 2013)

lasm said:


> I think it's a variant on first in which the narrator is mostly obscured, but I think the same could be said of third person. There's a narrator somewhere, even if there's no clear self-reference anywhere in the text. Might just be my view though.



Well, that's kind of my point. It's called 'point-of-view.' First is the limited POV of the main character. Third is the limited to unlimited POV of the writer ( or God if that's preferable). If second isn't the POV of the reader, then it's just a variant of those two and is no more a distinct POV than 'limited third' or 'unreliable first.'


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## Grape Juice Vampire (Jan 20, 2013)

Second can be and has been done well, though I personally dislike it and find it to be pointless. I don't connect with it as a reader and as a writer, second is not a viable option for my writing. Second is definitely a style thing that some will like, and some will not.


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## TheWonderingNovice (Jan 20, 2013)

This has gotten off topic and personal and I do not see the point to the thread anymore.


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## squidtender (Jan 20, 2013)

*keep this thread on topic and away from flaming.  Any more occurrences, squid will put on his angry eyes. *


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## OWenDavis (Jan 20, 2013)

1st or 3rd are great. I have works in progress in both. 2nd person? I don't think I have the brain to make that work. I think it would take a very good writer to make that work without feeling forced.


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## Jon M (Jan 20, 2013)

Leyline said:


> Well, that's kind of my point. It's called 'point-of-view.' First is the limited POV of the main character. Third is the limited to unlimited POV of the writer ( or God if that's preferable). If second isn't the POV of the reader, then it's just a variant of those two and is no more a distinct POV than 'limited third' or 'unreliable first.'


Every line in a Second Person story is not internal monologue the same way a First Person story is. So Second is probably closest to Third. And I imagine it spans the same distance Third does, as well -- limited to omniscient. 

Don't agree that Third = POV of the writer. It is either so close to the character that it's basically First Person with different pronouns, or omniscient at the other end, and even that God-like POV may have nothing at all to do with the author.


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## Staff Deployment (Jan 20, 2013)

Okay.

Okay, here we go. Four pages in. Man, this thread moves fast.

I use second person! However I use it in conjunction with first-person, to the point where the story almost becomes a conversation between "I" and "you." This allows for two central characters, both of which are immediately identified as the most important characters in the book, and also have a relationship that is instantly much deeper than it appears.

It's very clear that the reader isn't supposed to identify with "you" (or, really the narrator, to be honest). "You" is a dude whose only friends are inhuman and who has trouble communicating through any means other than murder. If the reader identifies with that, they are insane, and probably a danger to themselves and others.

It's also a framing device. It's implied that the narrator is partially recounting some of the story to "you." Which is kind of misleading because of course everyone dies in the end.


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## Kyle R (Jan 20, 2013)

Don't mind me.. For fun, and as a warmup exercise.. writing some 2nd person! Yay! 



When you step into the room, Arean looks up at you, his eyes sagging and red from lack of sleep. In the distance you can hear the trumpets sweeping through the city, like a herd of elephants on the move.

"Where have you been?" he asks you. His voice is strained, rough. The campaign has been grinding him down. Every day he looks smaller, weaker. 

"Scouting," you say. You know he won't be fooled, but you're too tired to come up with something better.

"Scouting." He yawns. You glimpse his neck--the veins swollen and dark. "Where," he yawns, "exactly have you been scouting?"

The knife in your belt feels heavy against your hip. You reach back and feel the cool handle against your palm. "Welsborough," you say, sliding the knife from its sheath. None can know your mission, not even your ailing brother.

Arean makes a face, a grimace that looks more from pain than confusion. He grits his teeth and bows his head, coughs. Blood speckles the back of his hand. You slide the knife into the sheath and come to his side, gently pat his back. "Let it out," you say. "It's okay."

He wheezes between wet, explosive coughs, his whole body wrenching from the strain. You had always been jealous of Arean, but right now he has your pity.

"Welsborough..." He clears his throat and locks eyes with you.

"I'd have to kill you," you say, giving him a sad smile.

He gives you a subtle wink. "Bound by our duties, then." He places his hand on yours. "Guards!" he yells.

You slip the knife between his ribs. Your face is close to his. Too close. His eyes, his mouth, wide open. Too wide. It makes you look away. "Don't let them catch you, brother," he whispers. You feel his weight sag against you, hear his breath leak slowly out.

Footsteps in the corridor. It's time for you to move.


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