# Does this legal technicality have to be accurate for my story to work?



## ironpony (Feb 6, 2016)

I discovered a plot hole in my story that was overlooked before.  After doing research, apparently in Canada (my story's setting), you are not allowed to record a conversation unless you are part of it.  That makes sense.

In my story, a cop is raped by a serial rapist/killer type of villain, he is pursuing, only to find himself being on of the victims later.  After the villain gets away with it, the cop obsessively pursues him wanting justice for what was done to him.

Now I wanted to write it so that the cop was following the villain around on his own time, but since he cannot record anything the villain says to incriminate himself to any of his associates, what can he do instead?

I don't want the villain to have any more potential victims at this point.  I would just like him to incriminate himself and be caught.  But since the MC is not allowed to record anything what kind of evidence could he get?

He cannot break into the villain's property to obtain anything either, since that's also illegal, so is their anything that my MC can do on his own, without warrants, since the villain is legally off the hook, and the prosecutor will not the help the MC?

Perhaps there is something in the law that might work for my story idea?  Or what if I made up that a cop can record a conversation without a warrant?  Is that okay?


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 6, 2016)

Have you ever heard of setting a movie in one place and filming it in another? There are all kinds of movies that have been filmed around where I live and guess what...NOT A DAMN ONE OF THE WAS SET HERE! Film your movie on the cheap in Canada...but set it somewhere that doesn't screw you up with the laws and restrictions.

For heaven's sake stop tying your own hands. And stop with all the threads. You could have easily posed this question in any one of the 40 you already have going.


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## ironpony (Feb 6, 2016)

Yes but my actors all have Canadian accents and I don't think it can be faked because of that.  I don't think they could imitate American accents accurately enough for the illusion to be believed.  You're right I should have posted this in one of those.  I apologize.


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## popsprocket (Feb 6, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Yes but my actors all have Canadian accents and I don't think it can be faked because of that.  I don't think they could imitate American accents accurately enough for the illusion to be believed.  You're right I should have posted this in one of those.  I apologize.



Are you making a hundred million dollar moive?

No?

No one will care.


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## Kyle R (Feb 6, 2016)

I've got a suggestion that would, in my opinion, solve a lot of your concerns about the law and all its technicalities: How about you make the main character *NOT* a cop?

How about just a normal citizen who takes the law into his own hands?

This way you don't have to worry about whether or not your protagonist is doing things lawfully or by the book—because he won't be an officer. He'll be a vigilante.

Great example of an everywoman who takes the law into her own hands after being attacked: _The Brave One_, starring Jodie Foster and Terrence Howard. Jodie's character becomes her own judge and executioner, breaking the law and hunting down the villains, while Terrence Howard's character plays the voice of reason and concern—the one man in the story who follows the straight and narrow.

Just a thought. This way your protagonist can be lawful or unlawful—whatever you feel works best for the story—thus eliminating all these headaches over proper procedure. :encouragement:


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## Patrick (Feb 6, 2016)

You know what, Canada sounds rubbish.

Since this is a story of personal revenge, who cares what the law says? Cop operates outside the law, which is what he's already doing by following him around off duty. 

Your story is fictional, which means you don't have to include that particular law (in your fictional Universe it has been changed or never came to exist) so long as you are consistent throughout the story. But it sounds like a trash resolution.

Also, you're writing a script for a movie? As in, somebody has solicited you to write a script for a crime thriller (you who have no real knowledge of legal process) for which they have already assembled a cast? And you and the cast are not working pro bono? If so, I'd like the producer's details, because I could write a few scripts hiding the fact I know very little about my subject.


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## DaBlaRR (Feb 6, 2016)

Patrick said:


> You know what, Canada sounds rubbish.



Easy now.


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## DaBlaRR (Feb 6, 2016)

I thought your cop turns into a vigilante? And a group of cops want to bring the villain down cause they killed an undercover cop that they didn't know was working for the villains?.... God I know too much about your story.


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## ironpony (Feb 6, 2016)

Patrick said:


> You know what, Canada sounds rubbish.
> 
> Since this is a story of personal revenge, who cares what the law says? Cop operates outside the law, which is what he's already doing by following him around off duty.
> 
> ...



I am also the producer as well.  You say that it's okay to make up parts of the law, as long as I am consistent.  I feel that since the law is realistic for the first half (which works to the story's advantage) if I break I make things up in the second half, maybe it won't be?  Or maybe the reader will not notice what parts are real, and what parts are made up.  But some readers said that they expect accuracy or they will put the story down.  That concerns me.  When you say it sounds like a trash solution though, how so may I ask?



Kyle R said:


> I've got a suggestion that would, in my opinion, solve a lot of your concerns about the law and all its technicalities: How about you make the main character *NOT* a cop?
> 
> How about just a normal citizen who takes the law into his own hands?
> 
> ...



Well the protagonist is only out for revenge in the second half.  For the first half, he is assigned a the case, and halfway through the story, up till the midpoint climax, as it's sometimes called, ends in tragedy.  The tragedy is what motivations the revenge then.  But if he is not a cop, then I cannot think of a reason as to why he would be investigating a kidnapping for the first half.  I could make him a private detective, hired to find a serial killer, but that just seems a bit forced maybe, and can complicate the story in other ways.



DaBlaRR said:


> I thought your cop turns into a vigilante? And a group of cops want to bring the villain down cause they killed an undercover cop that they didn't know was working for the villains?.... God I know too much about your story.



He turns vigilante in the second half.   Yes the other cop was working for the villains but he was not working undercover.  The MC I was thinking could go undercover in the opening to make contact with the villain, and that's how things get started.


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## DaBlaRR (Feb 6, 2016)

Then if he is willing to turn vigilante, guess what he says... "fuck the rules." Never heard of a rogue who was such a stickler for the law.


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## ironpony (Feb 6, 2016)

Yes I know, he can say that.  But he still has to get the villain in a way, in which he can get away with it legally.  I don't want him being caught in the end if that's okay.  So I need a way to for him to get the villain, in a way that would APPEAR legal still don't I?  Hence, getting something on the villain that would send him to jail, even if breaking the law, he would still have to make it stand up in court to work, wouldn't he?


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## Patrick (Feb 6, 2016)

ironpony said:


> I am also the producer as well.  You say that it's okay to make up parts of the law, as long as I am consistent.  I feel that since the law is realistic for the first half (which works to the story's advantage) if I break I make things up in the second half, maybe it won't be?  Or maybe the reader will not notice what parts are real, and what parts are made up.  But some readers said that they expect accuracy or they will put the story down.  That concerns me.  When you say it sounds like a trash solution though, how so may I ask?



Just having him incriminate himself with something he says is a terrible resolution. The most obvious, and not-totally-cringeworthy way I can think of him incriminating himself would be for him to have some kind of fetishised signature in each of his crimes. He gets off on stalking and collecting various things personal to them before he rapes/murders them. And then perhaps he keeps some of these things in broad daylight, because they're obscure enough to pass notice, until your Sherlock finally spots something on his mantelpiece, which he recognises from somewhere. He then gets back into the police station via the help of a colleague who still trusts him, or he climbs in through a window, whatever, and digs through the victim files until he finds a photograph of the young lady (taken a week before her rape and murder) displaying this otherwise-innocent looking item on some part of her person... 

You can't just have the criminal give himself away without the cop having to really work for it, and then once he knows the truth, there at least needs to be an elaborate chase. Maybe him finding out the truth comes relatively soon in the script and then he has to track this guy down after he initially escapes. There are so many possibilities once you start playing with ideas, but that's your work to do.





> Well the protagonist is only out for revenge in the second half.  For the first half, he is assigned a the case, and halfway through the story, up till the midpoint climax, as it's sometimes called, ends in tragedy.  The tragedy is what motivations the revenge then.  But if he is not a cop, then I cannot think of a reason as to why he would be investigating a kidnapping for the first half.  I could make him a private detective, hired to find a serial killer, but that just seems a bit forced maybe, and can complicate the story in other ways.



You're making a mountain out of a molehill without even having the payoff sorted out.





> He turns vigilante in the second half.   Yes the other cop was working for the villains but he was not working undercover.  The MC I was thinking could go undercover in the opening to make contact with the villain, and that's how things get started.



Once he's on the warpath, he's on the warpath. He's not going to care about minor points of the law. he's out for vengeance. Just unleash him.


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## DaBlaRR (Feb 6, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Yes I know, he can say that.  But he still has to get the villain in a way, in which he can get away with it legally.  I don't want him being caught in the end if that's okay.  So I need a way to for him to get the villain, in a way that would APPEAR legal still don't I?  Hence, getting something on the villain that would send him to jail, even if breaking the law, he would still have to make it stand up in court to work, wouldn't he?



Forget the court. Vigilante = street justice.


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## dale (Feb 6, 2016)

i just came up with this great idea for a story. it could be about this guy who lures a bunch of writers in on the internet
by asking them a bunch of inane questions....and then the questions start getting on their nerves so much that they all 
form a pact to hunt him down and drag him out to an old abandoned shed in the wilderness....and then they all force him
by threat of torture to write his damn screenplay...so that way they can have some peace....and then the screenplay actually
becomes a success....and then the guy lures them all in again because he can't decide what color of sports car would be better
for a screen-play writer to buy...and then they just kill him for the fun of it.


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## Ariel (Feb 6, 2016)

Canadian accents aren't so different from Midwestern United States accents.  The best advice I've seen here is to stop sweating it.


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## DaBlaRR (Feb 6, 2016)

dale said:


> i just came up with this great idea for a story. it could be about this guy who lures a bunch of writers in on the internet
> by asking them a bunch of inane questions....and then the questions start getting on their nerves so much that they all
> form a pact to hunt him down and drag him out to an old abandoned shed in the wilderness....and then they all force him
> by threat of torture to write his damn screenplay...so that way they can have some peace....and then the screenplay actually
> ...



I wanna be a co-writer please.


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## DaBlaRR (Feb 6, 2016)

amsawtell said:


> Canadian accents aren't so different from Midwestern United States accents.  The best advice I've seen here is to stop sweating it.



 Unless we are talking like Quebecois, Newfie, or any Maritime actors, no one is even going to know.


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## Plasticweld (Feb 6, 2016)

dale said:


> i just came up with this great idea for a story. it could be about this guy who lures a bunch of writers in on the internet
> by asking them a bunch of inane questions....and then the questions start getting on their nerves so much that they all
> form a pact to hunt him down and drag him out to an old abandoned shed in the wilderness....and then they all force him
> by threat of torture to write his damn screenplay...so that way they can have some peace....and then the screenplay actually
> ...



Just a guess...and this is your story Dale...But the first time this wizard of a screen play writer comes to an intersection with his new car, he won't know whether to turn right, left or go straight.  Let's say he has good coverage for his fancy new IPhone; he'd have to start a thread asking the other  writers which direction he should go... I mean is it logical to go left, but he would have to turn the wheel, and he is right handed, just how would that work? would that be believable,  He could go right but that sounds like write... so which it it?  Right or Wright.  Maybe he could go straight, but that wouldn't make any sense.  I think he would die right there because he forgot to charge is fancy IPhone and by the time he got back reading all the different answers, his battery went dead...Then using your ending...They kill him Dale this is just a suggestion, you know I am just a hack writer and it's your story but...but...but.


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 6, 2016)

dale said:


> i just came up with this great idea for a story. it could be about this guy who lures a bunch of writers in on the internet
> by asking them a bunch of inane questions....and then the questions start getting on their nerves so much that they all
> form a pact to hunt him down and drag him out to an old abandoned shed in the wilderness....and then they all force him
> by threat of torture to write his damn screenplay...so that way they can have some peace....and then the screenplay actually
> ...



Dale, I totally want in on that action. We could make a million. And between all the twisted minds around here, I am sure we could come up with a way the body would never be found.


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## ironpony (Feb 7, 2016)

Patrick said:


> Just having him incriminate himself with something he says is a terrible resolution. The most obvious, and not-totally-cringeworthy way I can think of him incriminating himself would be for him to have some kind of fetishised signature in each of his crimes. He gets off on stalking and collecting various things personal to them before he rapes/murders them. And then perhaps he keeps some of these things in broad daylight, because they're obscure enough to pass notice, until your Sherlock finally spots something on his mantelpiece, which he recognises from somewhere. He then gets back into the police station via the help of a colleague who still trusts him, or he climbs in through a window, whatever, and digs through the victim files until he finds a photograph of the young lady (taken a week before her rape and murder) displaying this otherwise-innocent looking item on some part of her person...
> 
> You can't just have the criminal give himself away without the cop having to really work for it, and then once he knows the truth, there at least needs to be an elaborate chase. Maybe him finding out the truth comes relatively soon in the script and then he has to track this guy down after he initially escapes. There are so many possibilities once you start playing with ideas, but that's your work to do.
> 
> ...



Okay thanks.  I thought that the cop would still be working at it, to trick the villain into giving away himself by recording a conversation with his criminal associates.  This happens a lot in fiction where the MC will bait the villain into thinking something is wrong, and he will go to his associates and talk about it.  The MC then records it.  Isn't that still the MC working for it, since had to set up a sting operation if you would to bait the others into meeting and talking about it?  I am not seeing how that is less effort compared to finding physical evidence on the villains property.

I was told by other readers before that finding evidence on the villains property does not make as much sense because he is making it too easy for the police if he is to leave things like souvenirs and files on the victims, around to be found.  I was told it's not smart of the villain and it makes them come off as dumb.

As for making a mountain out of a molehill before the pay.  I already had the pay off first, but then was told by people on here way before, that it was flawed, so since then I have been trying to come up with a better pay off.  But I can still use the same mountain in the first half, cause that scaffolding is needed to get the revenge going, since the it causes the revenge, in the second half, don't I?

As for the MC being on a warpath, I was told by readers that this is also flawed because the MC needs a logical plan to get the villains in a way, in which he can legally get away with it.  I could have the MC kill him, but when it comes to revenge thrillers, especially ones where the MC is seeking justice for their rapes, they often kill the villain a lot.  It's just very predictable and cliched, so I though it would be more different, and perhaps even more compelling, if the MC caught the villain by legal means, and the villain has to go to jail, thinking about what he has done.


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## Sam (Feb 7, 2016)

Do you have any idea how to do research? 

What you're doing here isn't research; it's asking a bunch of questions and hoping someone else will do the research for you.


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## Kyle R (Feb 7, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Yes I know, he can say that.  But he still has to get the villain in a way, in which he can get away with it legally.  I don't want him being caught in the end if that's okay.  So I need a way to for him to get the villain, in a way that would APPEAR legal still don't I?  Hence, getting something on the villain that would send him to jail, even if breaking the law, he would still have to make it stand up in court to work, wouldn't he?



You can have your protagonist incriminate the villain while still using illegal methods himself. It could end with your protagonist watching the villain get arrested from afar. Then the protagonist, knowing his mission is complete, skips town and is seen on a beach in Mexico, sipping an ice-cool Mai Tai. Or something.

That's just one possibility out of many.

The law doesn't have to be followed by your protagonist—whether he's a cop or not.

Really, you can do _anything_ you want with your plot. You just need to give yourself permission to do so. :encouragement:


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## dale (Feb 7, 2016)

Sam said:


> Do you have any idea how to do research?
> 
> What you're doing here isn't research; it's asking a bunch of questions and hoping someone else will do the research for you.



wouldn't it be funny if this guy was in culinary school trying to make a big pot of soup?


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## Patrick (Feb 7, 2016)

Kyle R said:


> You can have your protagonist incriminate the villain while still using illegal methods himself. It could end with your protagonist watching the villain get arrested from afar. Then the protagonist, knowing his mission is complete, skips town and is seen on a beach in Mexico, sipping an ice-cool Mai Tai. Or something.
> 
> That's just one possibility out of many.



I think the op, upon seeing that he had not had the policemen read the rapist his rights, would resolve the drama with the revelation that the man's rights had not been read prior to arrest and that he was, therefore, unlawfully detained. The story will end with no charges having been brought and the rapist at large.


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## DaBlaRR (Feb 7, 2016)

You always mention "readers" who have reviewed your work. Then proceed to give a big explanation to what they say won't work. Who are these readers? And do they actually exist?


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## ironpony (Feb 7, 2016)

Sometimes the reader's reasons are contradictory or quite vague, when they email me back, so I was having trouble ascertaining the real heart of the problems.  As for doing research, I read some things on the law, and I even read the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which is kind of like Canada's constitution.

I find some of the examples to be kind of vague and you can turn a lot of them on their ears with peculiar and unique scenarios, so I am not sure how judges would interpret the law when it comes to my scenarios exactly.  I can take guesses, but that's all they are, are guesses, so I thought I would get other opinions to see if it makes sense.  Plus a lot of laws were written before all this new technology came out.


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 7, 2016)

I have said this before...you don't have to be realistic because most movies are not.

You are trying to be hyper realistic and are unable to do so. You keep tying your own hands with all this worrying about what is realistic when in reality that is something that you really don't need to worry about all that much. 

You have mentioned The FBI Files television show on a couple of occasions. Watching that show doesn't count as research any more than asking us a shit load of questions does. Do you REALLY think that the FBI is going allow that show to depict every time they didn't exactly follow protocol? Would they want that aired out to the general public?

Your obsession with being "realistic" is, putting it mildly, absurd. Unless you are writing a "true crime" screenplay in which you pretty much have to follow events as they happened (which in reality still doesn't happen in the movies) the term "artistic license" should be your friend. You can write it any way you want.


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## DaBlaRR (Feb 7, 2016)

When I read fiction or watch fiction. I rather it not be perfectly realistic to the point of abiding by Canada's Charter of rights, for example. It's your story. 

I just watched a movie the other day where it was legal to murder people one day a year to control the population... Not once did I question what the constitution or the charter says. It was a pretty shitty movie, but my point is.... ahhh you get my point.


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## Ultraroel (Feb 8, 2016)

My last response to any of your questions.

No-one I know, expects or even intends to have the movies he sees to be accurate. No-one I know has a law-book next to him while watching a movie to check all technicalities. 
If you wanna do everything by law, it will be quite the boring story imo and you will lose yourself in all the technical issues you make up yourself..

Again: You are the writer, you set the conditions for the story and can choose how to deal with it.. Get some more confidence and make some decisions.


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## Patrick (Feb 8, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Sometimes the reader's reasons are contradictory or quite vague, when they email me back, so I was having trouble ascertaining the real heart of the problems.  *As for doing research, I read some things on the law, and I even read the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which is kind of like Canada's constitution.*
> 
> I find some of the examples to be kind of vague and you can turn a lot of them on their ears with peculiar and unique scenarios, so I am not sure how judges would interpret the law when it comes to my scenarios exactly.  I can take guesses, but that's all they are, are guesses, so I thought I would get other opinions to see if it makes sense.  Plus a lot of laws were written before all this new technology came out.



Look, you aren't writing a treatise on criminal law; the premise for your story is simple. There's a rapist/murderer who has wronged our protagonist in some way. Our protagonist happens to be a cop. He's now out for revenge. It would be helpful, but it certainly isn't necessary, to ask a friend who is also a police officer what his gut reaction to your premise is. maybe he would be able to tell you something about procedure. Short of that, do away with as much legalese as you can and stick to the basic premise of your story. Murderer/rapist wrongs cop, so cop goes looking for revenge. Make it all up while avoiding as much of the legal process as you possibly can if you are not well versed in it. That's how I'd write it.

What you have to ask yourself is, how much law would a police officer know? They aren't lawyers. They don't present a case in a courtroom. They just gather evidence so that charges can be brought.


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## ironpony (Feb 8, 2016)

Okay thanks.  The cops I asked said that most stories make things up, even serious thrillers like Die Hard and Dirty Harry are unrealistic, and they have huge fanbases, they said.

As for the cops not being lawyers, lawyers don't want to to talk unless you pay, so I talk to cops.  They do know a lot though surprisingly.  I am guessing they have to, so they know that the evidence they bring will hold up in court and all, of course.


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## David Gordon Burke (Feb 8, 2016)

ironpony said:


> He cannot break into the villain's property to obtain anything either, since that's also illegal, so is their anything that my MC can do on his own, without warrants, since the villain is legally off the hook, and the prosecutor will not the help the MC?



Cannot comment on this topic but I will mention that in Canada, we don't have prosecutors, we have Crown Attorneys.  
As far as legal goes, if you go there, you had better have your facts straight.  

David Gordon Burke


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 9, 2016)

David Gordon Burke said:


> Cannot comment on this topic but I will mention that in Canada, we don't have prosecutors, we have Crown Attorneys.
> As far as legal goes, if you go there, you had better have your facts straight.
> 
> David Gordon Burke



Oh geeze. You had to go and say that didn't you? Now he'll NEVER stop with the "Is this plausible/realistic/absurd " threads.

Goodness knows he's allergic to doing actual research.


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## popsprocket (Feb 9, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  The cops I asked said that most stories make things up, even serious thrillers like *Die Hard* and *Dirty Harry* are *unrealistic*, and they have huge fanbases, they said.




WHAT!?


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 9, 2016)

It amazes me how easily the dude misses the whole point.


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## Schrody (Feb 9, 2016)

DaBlaRR said:


> I just watched a movie the other day where it was legal to murder people one day a year to control the population... Not once did I question what the constitution or the charter says. It was a pretty shitty movie, but my point is.... ahhh you get my point.



I could tell you it's a shitty movie just by an idea, no need to watch it. For anyone interested, the movie is "Purge" and they made two sequels 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




OT: I like some plausibility in my movies, and I tend to write plausible scenes, making sure it doesn't interfere with the story's integrity.


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## dale (Feb 9, 2016)

T.S.Bowman said:


> It amazes me how easily the dude misses the whole point.



but maybe it's WE who are missing the point. we should rename these threads "how not to be a writer" and
consider them a great learning experience on what not to do.


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## Ultraroel (Feb 9, 2016)

Awwww don't be too mean.. We will just demand 50% of profits if his screenplay is a success


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## Olly Buckle (Feb 9, 2016)

T.S.Bowman said:


> It amazes me how easily the dude misses the whole point.



I sometimes wonder if it only *seems* easy.


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## Patrick (Feb 9, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  The cops I asked said that most stories make things up, even serious thrillers like Die Hard and Dirty Harry are unrealistic, and they have huge fanbases, they said.
> 
> As for the cops not being lawyers, lawyers don't want to to talk unless you pay, so I talk to cops.  They do know a lot though surprisingly.  I am guessing they have to, so they know that the evidence they bring will hold up in court and all, of course.



Did you take notes when they spoke to you about procedure? Just don't be too inhibited to make things up, but don't include what you haven't researched. Just write a psychological thriller. Most people aren't interested in rigorous legal detail.


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 9, 2016)

Ultraroel said:


> Awwww don't be too mean.. We will just demand 50% of profits if his screenplay is a success



We could definitely do that. I would imagine that if any of us watch it (if he ever finishes it) we'll see our ideas all over it.


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 9, 2016)

At this point, I'm not entirely sure he should actually finish this piece since, by all appearances, none of the ideas besides the bare basics are going to be his own.


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## ironpony (Feb 9, 2016)

Patrick said:


> Did you take notes when they spoke to you about procedure? Just don't be too inhibited to make things up, but don't include what you haven't researched. Just write a psychological thriller. Most people aren't interested in rigorous legal detail.



Yes I took notes, there are just certain areas, they will not talk about.  I wanted to write a psychological thriller, originally, but readers kept asking me, why they police never get involved and why they don't seem to interested, or notice anything going on, so I thought I would bring the police into it, to make it more plausible.

As for Canada having 'Crown Attorneys', I know they are called that, I just use the general term prosecutor, since they prosecute still.

I guess I should trust my instincts and write the story without having to confirm to so much.  It's just I do not know what is plausible and not plausible anymore, since readers have disagreements, and thought it would be best to get a majority opinion to be more sure, or how else do you tell really?


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## Sam (Feb 9, 2016)

Readers have disagreements all the time. 

Have you ever looked at reviews on Amazon or Goodreads? You have readers who criticise a character, others who criticise a plot line, and this, that, and the third. It's virtually endless. 

If writers were to take heed of everything that every reader ever said about their work, they would never get anything done.


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## dale (Feb 9, 2016)

ironpony said:


> I guess I should trust my instincts and write the story without having to confirm to so much.  It's just I do not know what is plausible and not plausible anymore, since readers have disagreements, and thought it would be best to get a majority opinion to be more sure, or how else do you tell really?



against my better judgment, i'm gonna address this in a serious manner. you seem to have this mentality of an 6th grade
geeky student writing a term paper for the eyes of a rather anal history teacher. i don't know how much you know about
 "right brain/left brain" dichotomy, but your "readers" or if this is a screen-play, then i guess your target audience would be
"watchers"...are not going to be grading or judging your work using "left-brain" analytics. all these droning and horridly anal
details you're placing so much importance on mean close to nada when it comes to this artistic endeavor you're supposed to
be embarking upon. this is art. not a term paper. or if you don't like the notion of it being "art", then it's a story. no reader
is going to give a flying shit about these million and one details you seem to be so stressed over. if you persist in placing so
much importance on these details in your fiction? you're not going to have readers or watchers because you're going to bore
the shit out of them 10 minutes into the thing and they're just gonna discard what you've attempted to bring to the table.
no one cares if a cop on a vendetta follows all the rules. as a matter of fact? we already know he's not going to because the 
vendetta is priority to him over law. quit worrying about "the readers". in a 1st draft situation? fuck the readers. push them
out of your mind and write the story. worry about the readers during the editing process, if at all. that's probably the last
piece of sane advice i'm gonna give. now go ahead and type your normal..."ok, but...", so i can giggle and shake my head.


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## Olly Buckle (Feb 9, 2016)

/\ /\ He's got a good point. You cited 'Die hard' earlier; Ever seen a screen shot of Bruce Willis reading anyone their rights? The screen heroes that grab people don't say 'I must warn you ...' but 'Make my day punk ...'


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## ironpony (Feb 9, 2016)

Perhaps I am over thinking it.  One reader went through the whole story, and pointed out several "plot holes", but perhaps they aren't really plot holes to everyone maybe.  Well I think I will just write the whole thing without asking about the scenarios individually and then see what people say.  Like how many would have to agree it doesn't make sense percentage wise, before you know it's bad?


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## Patrick (Feb 9, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Perhaps I am over thinking it.  One reader went through the whole story, and pointed out several "plot holes", but perhaps they aren't really plot holes to everyone maybe.  Well I think I will just write the whole thing without asking about the scenarios individually and then see what people say.  Like how many would have to agree it doesn't make sense percentage wise, before you know it's bad?



A plot hole is a different beast to a legal detail. A cop seeking revenge for a crime that has negatively affected him, his family, his friends, his colleagues, his dog, his cat, his whatever, is not a plot hole. If you make a mistake when writing about legal procedure, that's not a plot hole.

A potential plot hole would be something like the eagles in the Lord of the Rings. Why didn't they just fly Frodo to Mount Doom, since they rescue the protagonists so many times in both the Hobbit and lotr? This isn't really a plot hole, however, because the eagles were not above the corrupting influence of the ring, and their passage to Mordor would have been seen a very long way off by the great eye of Sauron and the many spies Sauron and Saruman had throughout Middle Earth. But a plot hole would be something totally unaccounted for and without reasonable explanation.


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## ironpony (Feb 9, 2016)

Oh okay I see.  What about in my story, where the police refuse to give a woman witness protection... she has been subpoenaed to appear in court to testify against her kidnapper.  They couldn't get her to testify willingly, and she said she didn't want to press charges and just put it behind her.  So the prosecutor subpoenas her.

She is in police protection but I was told this is a plot hole, cause the police would not give protection to a witness who refuses to give a statement, and had to be subpoenaed in order to get answers.  Now this is just one example, but does this count as a plot hole?  I thought that a reasonable explanation would be that even if a witness is not cooperative, the police do not want to see her be killed for testifying.


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## LeeC (Feb 9, 2016)

In all fairness ironpony, and with all due respect, you keep asking all these "what if" questions purportedly stemming from comments made by unknown beta readers relative to some manuscript that to my knowledge none of us have seen. I hope you might understand that such makes for a disconcerting discussion.  A few questions that are troubling you about the writing of your manuscript are relevant to writing discussion without seeing the manuscript, but maybe you can see where endless but, but, buts, relative to a hypothetical manuscript might tend to get taxing on others. 

There are a couple ways that you could proceed where you'd get more beneficial assistance. One is to post your manuscript in Beta Fiction Works where both sides of the discussion would have an actual grounding point. If you thought the manuscript ready for these so-called other beta readers then that's enough justification to post it in Beta Fiction Works for more meaningful give and take. The other option, if you don't want the membership to see your manuscript, is to post an Authors Requesting Beta Assistance notice, and deal with willing beta readers privately. 

Of course you can also ignore what I'm saying, your privilege, and continue along the course you are. Think though how that reflects on the seriousness and believability of the help you're requesting ;-) 

Please understand I'm trying to help.


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 9, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Perhaps I am over thinking it.



Perhaps? You have been overthinking it since word one. Stop thinking about percentages. Stop thinking about anyone at all and just write the story YOU want to write.


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## Ultraroel (Feb 10, 2016)

I've said it before. perhaps you should also consider your beta readers.. They might be focusing too hard on technicalities rather than the overall story and impression. it's okay, but when it gets to a screenplay, you can be a bit loose. I hope you won't spend half of the screen time explaining technicalities that no-one cares about, unless they wanna see a boring movie.

Maybe check with some betareaders here. I had my first chapter reviewed and got great constructive feedback


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## LeeC (Feb 10, 2016)

The point of my previous comment is that vacillating on storyline points is maybe missing an overriding consideration. If a writer is adept enough in depicting a story any disbelief on the reader's part is suspended in getting caught up in the story. So maybe if these other readers keep picking away at storyline points you're not pulling them into the story. Such is a major aspect one can pick up on in interacting with beta readers, if the author doesn't get too far off on a tangent of questioning storyline points. 

One of the reasons I suggested the beta collective here is that it's beneficial to focus on wordsmith aspects as much or more than storyline details ;-)


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## dale (Feb 10, 2016)

LeeC said:


> The point of my previous comment is that vacillating on storyline points is maybe missing an overriding consideration. If a writer is adept enough in depicting a story any disbelief on the reader's part is suspended in getting caught up in the story. So maybe if these other readers keep picking away at storyline points you're not pulling them into the story. Such is a major aspect one can pick up on in interacting with beta readers, if the author doesn't get too far off on a tangent of questioning storyline points.
> 
> One of the reasons I suggested the beta collective here is that it's beneficial to focus on wordsmith aspects as much or more than storyline details ;-)



well, i just really hope that those 2 groups you've linked have had a deep round-table discussion over a few drinks
regarding all the hellish possibilities an invitation like that could bring.


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## Olly Buckle (Feb 10, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Perhaps I am over thinking it.  One reader went through the whole story, and pointed out several "plot holes", but perhaps they aren't really plot holes to everyone maybe.  Well I think I will just write the whole thing without asking about the scenarios individually and then see what people say.  Like how many would have to agree it doesn't make sense percentage wise, before you know it's bad?



Allow for the fact that you gave someone the story to read and probably asked for comment; they were looking for something to say, your average reader isn't. Whether they were qualified to pass judgement I don't know, but they were looking to. Most ordinary readers of that sort of book are only looking to be entertained and wouldn't notice 'errors' if they were printed in red italics.


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## ironpony (Feb 10, 2016)

LeeC said:


> The point of my previous comment is that vacillating on storyline points is maybe missing an overriding consideration. If a writer is adept enough in depicting a story any disbelief on the reader's part is suspended in getting caught up in the story. So maybe if these other readers keep picking away at storyline points you're not pulling them into the story. Such is a major aspect one can pick up on in interacting with beta readers, if the author doesn't get too far off on a tangent of questioning storyline points.
> 
> One of the reasons I suggested the beta collective here is that it's beneficial to focus on wordsmith aspects as much or more than storyline details ;-)



Yeah for sure this could be it.  So far a good amount of readers, will be mistaken as to what a character's motivations are.  They will think that something is going through a character's head, where it was actually something else, with different motivations.  Since it's a screenplay, I can only write what you see, not what character's feel.

But then when if I explain to readers that the character's motivations were something else all along, they do not accept it and keep insisting that the motivations are what they insist they are.  How do I break that, and make reader's more accepting that a character's motivations might be something else, other than what they think they are?


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 11, 2016)

ironpony said:


> But then when if I explain to readers that the character's motivations were something else all along, they do not accept it and keep insisting that the motivations are what they insist they are.  How do I break that, and make reader's more accepting that a character's motivations might be something else, other than what they think they are?



Easy. Stop worrying about it.

Think about this....there are literally DOZENS of different interpretations of the great works of literature. There are many opinions on what an author was "trying to say" or what motivates certain characters.

People are going to see what they _want to see_ when they read your work.

Stop worrying about how to break it. You can't. Just write.


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## ironpony (Feb 11, 2016)

Okay thanks.  Well I can post a synopsis of the first half, since I have that plotted out, but should I just post a synopsis, or is that not enough?  Should I post that in general fiction?


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## DaBlaRR (Feb 11, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  Well I can post a synopsis of the first half, since I have that plotted out, but should I just post a synopsis, or is that not enough?  Should I post that in general fiction?



I challenge you to make this ONE decision on your own.


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## ironpony (Feb 11, 2016)

Well I am just not sure where to post it since on that forum it says that it is not intended for critique.


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## LeeC (Feb 12, 2016)

The creative boards (Fiction, PWW, ...) are intended for posting one's not overly long writing with the expectation of detailed critiques. Posting in the workshops protects first rights, where boards open to the internet (like Fiction) do not.

The beta collective is intended for more complete works, already struggled with at length, with the expectation of more general takes, though detailed suggestions may be offered depending on the beta reader. 

In any case if your intent is to post a synopsis of your writing, then it would be best for more senior staff than myself  to offer a suggestion as to where it might be posted. I'll kick this up so they might weigh in.


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## ironpony (Feb 12, 2016)

Oh okay. I already posted it in the Prose Writers Workshop .


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## Ultraroel (Feb 12, 2016)

ironpony said:


> already posted.



lol


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## ironpony (Feb 15, 2016)

Okay thanks, everyone.  Well I will just finish the story then.  Perhaps it is best to finish the entire thing, before anyone makes suggestions, rather than making suggestions off of outlines only.  I am still debating whether or not I should write an anti-revenge story, or a pro-revenge one.  Most thriller stories that deal with the them of revenge, have a philosophy that you reap what you sow, and this goes for the vigilante protagonist as well.  Like for example, in a lot of stories, the protagonist might accidentally get an innocent person killed in his revenge quest, or he might get caught in the end, and go to prison.

But what if I wrote a very pro revenge story, where the MC commits his murders and totally gets away with it, and the reader is suppose to be with him all the way?  Do you think that such an approach may come off as shallow?  It has before in stories that took that approach, so do you think it's a good idea, or is it kind of shallow?


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## Ultraroel (Feb 15, 2016)

Again. Shallowness, credibility etc are all based on how you work out the character.
If you can provide him with a perfect crime and a mind-set that doesn't work.

Isn't Dexter like one of these kind of characters? He kills and generally gets away with it?


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## ironpony (Feb 15, 2016)

Okay thanks.  How do the perfect crime and mindset do not work though?  Plus didn't Dexter go down in the final episode?


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## Kyle R (Feb 15, 2016)

ironpony said:


> But what if I wrote a very pro revenge story, where the MC commits his murders and totally gets away with it, and the reader is suppose to be with him all the way?  Do you think that such an approach may come off as shallow?  It has before in stories that took that approach, so do you think it's a good idea, or is it kind of shallow?



I think a skilled writer can take any story and make it great.

I also think that, if you ever plan to make a career out of writing (or screenwriting), you'll have to learn to trust yourself and your creative instincts.

Confidence tends to breed success. Conversely, a lack of confidence tends to breed failure.

Get confident, I say. Say, "To hell with you, self-doubt! Begone, uncertainty! I'm writing my story the way I want it, and it's going to be awesome, and anyone who thinks otherwise can go suck an egg!"

Then write the story like your fingers are on fire. :encouragement:


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