# Genetics and Gene Splicing.



## Rojack79 (Feb 16, 2016)

Hey people. So i was wandering how gene splicing worked. Also can you splice human dna with animal dna and get anyhing at all?


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## Bishop (Feb 16, 2016)

Basically, currently, right now it doesn't. Work, that is. And as of right now nothing can be done to create hybrids between animals and humans. It's the stuff of science fiction, so if you use it, don't try to base it heavily in real science. Just do it. Otherwise, people will try to poke holes in it. Just say it is what it is and go from there.


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## Terry D (Feb 16, 2016)

Rojack79 said:


> Hey people. So i was wandering how gene splicing worked. Also can you splice human dna with animal dna and get anyhing at all?



First off: The word is wondering, not wandering (unless you were out walking around aimlessly looking for an answer :-k). Sorry, not trying to be a pedant, but words is important.

If you are looking at writing about human/animal hybrids, you might want to take a look at The Island of Dr. Moreau by H.G. Wells. Scientists have been splicing human genes into mice for decades, but they are not human-mice, they simply have some genetic traits of humans. This is done so various drugs can be tested without risking human subjects. There has also been a synthetic human ear grown on the back of a mouse.

Going the other direction -- from animal to human -- is far more problematic. The technology isn't much of a problem, but the ethical issues are. It would also take many years to determine any negative side effects of such an experiment. The subject would need to be born, grow up, reproduce, and die before we would ever know if the 'manimal' was viable.


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## Patrick (Feb 16, 2016)

You can't just splice some DNA and get a new viable creature. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. You should do some research on hox genes to understand something about bodyplans in organisms. It is well known at this point that there are hierarchical levels of control in the DNA itself, with segments of code regulating other segments of code and so on, and we only know a limited amount about their functions. Basically, a human being wants to be a human being, and it's a symphony of molecular switches being toggled on and off that goes beyond our understanding in embryogenesis.


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## TheWonderingNovice (Feb 16, 2016)

There isn't much information out there, you'll just have to rely on your writing skills to make it sound convincing. No one is going to sit there and poke holes and criticize. Its not like you are writing a scholarly article.


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## Joe_Bassett (Feb 17, 2016)

If human/animal gene splicing was doable it would go a little like this:

The scientist would take the segments of DNA he wanted to splice and put it into a vector. 
The vector is anything they can use to inject DNA into the nuclei of existing cells.  Usually they use a virus modified so that it can do no harm. Viruses are some of the better and more accurate methods of inserting genetic code.
They insert the vector into the target cell.  That would likely be the embryonic cell of the host.
The virus would then modify the embryo's nucleic DNA and it would reproduce with the spliced DNA.

This is a general explanation, and I'm no geneticist, I just have an interest in the topic.


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## Jack of all trades (Feb 17, 2016)

Terry D said:


> First off: The word is wondering, not wandering (unless you were out walking around aimlessly looking for an answer :-k). Sorry, not trying to be a pedant, but words is important.



Words ARE important. Especially for people trying not to be a pedant.


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## Jack of all trades (Feb 17, 2016)

Rojack79 said:


> Hey people. So i was wandering how gene splicing worked. Also can you splice human dna with animal dna and get anyhing at all?



The first step is to identify the specific DNA sequence that you want. The steps needed to do the cutting and splicing have been around for over thirty years.

With the legal, moral and ethical issues around experimentation with humans, there has been no attempt to insert or replace any human DNA with anything else. Yeast and bacteria have been experimented with in the past. I'm not sure if they're still being used. And of course there's GMO food. Peas, corn, soybeans and even potatoes. I haven't memorized the whole list.

Does this begin to answer your questions?


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## ShamelessBrute (Feb 17, 2016)

you keep showing up in threads i like Rojack

whatever you decide whether realistic or fictitious double, triple, even quadruple check your stats, ex. extra chromosome in real life is down syndrome. past that i just know what animes an comics say on the subject. and don't look to movies, they will always have some made up "Hollywood" facts.


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## Patrick (Feb 17, 2016)

Smaller modifications would be possible if there were no ethical concerns or no way to render them. But don't touch the bodyplan. You need to do some research instead of asking vague questions on here. Again, you cannot simply describe the process of how genes were spliced without understanding what sort of adaptations are actually possible. If you write about humans with an arthropod's bodyplan, those who know something about genetics will not be tempted to read on, I suspect. Write a fantasy novel if you want to have unlimited scope as to what you can create.

It's imperative that you learn your subject if you want to start monkeying around with genetics.


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## Terry D (Feb 17, 2016)

Jack of all trades said:


> Words ARE important. Especially for people trying not to be a pedant.



Sorry you didn't catch the joke...


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## Jack of all trades (Feb 17, 2016)

Terry D said:


> Sorry you didn't catch the joke...




Ha! I knew you were gonna say that. Thanks. My roommate owes me now.


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## Stormcat (Feb 17, 2016)

Hmm... I can't speak for animals, but since GMOs are a hot topic, this looks like the place to be!

I'm looking for similar plant cultivars that could theoretically be bred or spliced together to make a unique plant, or at least a new cultivar. 

Like, In one episode of the Simpsons, Homer somehow crossbred a tobacco and a tomato to make a "Tomacco" plant. Scientists were later able to create this plant in real-life.


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## Sleepwriter (Feb 17, 2016)

Stormcat said:


> Hmm... I can't speak for animals, but since GMOs are a hot topic, this looks like the place to be!
> 
> I'm looking for similar plant cultivars that could theoretically be bred or spliced together to make a unique plant, or at least a new cultivar.
> 
> Like, In one episode of the Simpsons, Homer somehow crossbred a tobacco and a tomato to make a "Tomacco" plant. Scientists were later able to create this plant in real-life.



That episode was both hilarious and frightening at the same time.   It should have aired on one of their tree house of horrors episodes.


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## Rojack79 (Feb 18, 2016)

Sleepwriter said:


> That episode was both hilarious and frightening at the same time.   It should have aired on one of their tree house of horrors episodes.



Huh. I think i remember that episode. Thats really fasinating the fact that they were able to make that plant in real life.


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## Stormcat (Feb 18, 2016)

Rojack79 said:


> Huh. I think i remember that episode. Thats really fasinating the fact that they were able to make that plant in real life.



they were able to do that because both plants come from the same family. You can sometimes do this in plants and animals, if they are similar enough. You're not going to combine a cat and a human anytime soon, but a human/gorilla hybrid... maybe.


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## Rojack79 (Feb 18, 2016)

Stormcat said:


> they were able to do that because both plants come from the same family. You can sometimes do this in plants and animals, if they are similar enough. You're not going to combine a cat and a human anytime soon, but a human/gorilla hybrid... maybe.


Ok so there's no way to combine human and animal d.n.a yet. Ok i can work with that. I'm still going to do the whole D.N.A. merging thing i just have to come up with a scientifically plausible way of doing it. Well i already have that fixed. So tell me is there any organism on earth that can rearrange the host's D.N.A. and do one of two thing's, 

1.) Make it to were we can insert say a human's DNA strand into an animal and have positive result's.

or

2.) Cause rapid mutation within the subject that would benefit it in any way? 

P.S. If not then that's fine. I already have something in the book that can do that i just want to know if there was anything on earth that could sort of act as a catalyst in this situation.


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## Stormcat (Feb 18, 2016)

Rojack79 said:


> Ok so there's no way to combine human and animal d.n.a yet. Ok i can work with that. I'm still going to do the whole D.N.A. merging thing i just have to come up with a scientifically plausible way of doing it. Well i already have that fixed. So tell me is there any organism on earth that can rearrange the host's D.N.A. and do one of two thing's,
> 
> 1.) Make it to were we can insert say a human's DNA strand into an animal and have positive result's.
> 
> ...



Viruses re-arrange our DNA all the time to spread infection. Of course, this is all to benefit the virus, no human or animal or even plant benefits from a virus. Some viral infections can take mere hours to infect the host. But to answer your questions:

1. No, this is impossible. Humans are too far removed from most other animals for this to be possible.

2. Rapid mutation? Happens all the time! Benefits the host? Never.

Science will never allow us to create real-life furries. Magic is still an option though...


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## Rojack79 (Feb 18, 2016)

Stormcat said:


> 1. No, this is impossible. Humans are too far removed from most other animals for this to be possible.


ok so some Hollywood science can clear this problem up.


Stormcat said:


> 2. Rapid mutation? Happens all the time! Benefits the host? Never.


Ok so more Hollywood Science!!


Stormcat said:


> Science will never allow us to create real-life furries.


But science can do anything!!!!! Beside's who doesn't like furry's?


Stormcat said:


> Magic is still an option though...


Really? How? Maybe through some psychic ability's but some of those aren't even real? Well no i shouldn't say that. I myself have precognition and I've met a witch that has a lot of mystical power so..


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## Stormcat (Feb 18, 2016)

You'd better have some really fancy hollywood science to back you up. Already I feel my interest in whatever you plan to do waning because it's so unrealistic.


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## ppsage (Feb 18, 2016)

The tomacco which was created was a single plant made by a graft; a tomato branch on a tobacco stock I think. Nothing to do with genes. The species are closely related. Tissue grafts (organ transplants) are done on humans all the time. -------------- Inter-species fertilization happens occasionally, horses and donkeys make mules, elephants and mammoths might be tried artificially. Again, this isn't gene manipulation except in the ordinary way of diploid cells choosing which allele to express. ------------ If I came across gene splicing of an animal or human gamete prior to fertilization in a fiction, I would consider it a plausible extension of current knowledge and technology, even though it's pretty far beyond it at this point, and may possibly never come to pass.


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## Rojack79 (Feb 18, 2016)

Stormcat said:


> You'd better have some really fancy hollywood science to back you up. Already I feel my interest in whatever you plan to do waning because it's so unrealistic.


Well it is called "Hollywood Science". I can make it as realistic as possible.


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## Rojack79 (Feb 18, 2016)

In fact i think this idea i have is pretty realistic. It's an alien extremophile that humanity found in the year 2057. They began to experiment with it by testing out its effect on animal dna. What the parasite doe's is simple. It copy's the Base dna it is given. Then when you inject that into someone else it takes that dna sample that it was given and starts to insert that dna into the new host thus giving that host certain quality's of said animal or vice versa.


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## Stormcat (Feb 18, 2016)

Rojack79 said:


> Well it is called "Hollywood Science". I can make it as realistic as possible.



No, No you can't.

You're the one asking to combine human and animal DNA, Furries are good for fantasy, but are so unrealistic they can never be even a scientific possibility. Besides, the majority of people think anthropomorphic animals should be left to cartoons and pornography.


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## Stormcat (Feb 18, 2016)

Rojack79 said:


> In fact i think this idea i have is pretty realistic. It's an alien extremophile that humanity found in the year 2057. They began to experiment with it by testing out its effect on animal dna. What the parasite doe's is simple. It copy's the Base dna it is given. Then when you inject that into someone else it takes that dna sample that it was given and starts to insert that dna into the new host thus giving that host certain quality's of said animal or vice versa.



Extremophiles are called that because they thrive in extreme environments. It's Not even in the same genus as animals, it's another class entirely. The DNA of two such entities are so starkly different, you're gonna get called out for your genetic ignorance.

Don't go thinking just because it's alien you can do whatever you want with it.


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## Bishop (Feb 18, 2016)

Rojack79 said:


> In fact i think this idea i have is pretty realistic. It's an alien extremophile that humanity found in the year 2057. They began to experiment with it by testing out its effect on animal dna. What the parasite doe's is simple. It copy's the Base dna it is given. Then when you inject that into someone else it takes that dna sample that it was given and starts to insert that dna into the new host thus giving that host certain quality's of said animal or vice versa.



What is the PLOT of this sci-fi epic? After all of the apocalypses and reversion to middle ages, the plasma swords, the human/animal hybrids... what's the _actual story_? Because I'm betting that so much of this is highly, highly unnecessary for its development.


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## Rojack79 (Feb 18, 2016)

Stormcat said:


> Extremophiles are called that because they thrive in extreme environments. It's Not even in the same genus as animals, it's another class entirely. The DNA of two such entities are so starkly different, you're gonna get called out for your genetic ignorance.


And yet the movie Alien's is still one of the best sci-fi movie's to this day despite the alien being able to latch onto the nearest human and reproduce while taking on aspect's of there human host. I know what extremophile's are. They are bacteria (mostly) that live in the harshest environment's known to man. Seriously if every piece of science fiction was judged by its scientific accuracy more than half of it would be wastes of paper.


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## Rojack79 (Feb 18, 2016)

Bishop said:


> What is the PLOT of this sci-fi epic? After all of the apocalypses and reversion to middle ages, the plasma swords, the human/animal hybrids... what's the _actual story_? Because I'm betting that so much of this is highly, highly unnecessary for its development.


I am really glad you asked. Honestly you might be right about all of this not being necessary but the reason i have all of this in the story is so i can explain why there are a bunch of creature's from a fantasy story in the real world. So 500 after the human race has practically annihilated itself in an attempt to stop a few other apocalyptic disaster's the human race is struggling to get back on it's feet. Now the main plot of the book is that a super soldier from the 22nd century has been on ice for the past 500 year's. He wake's up to find the world is drastically changed from the last time he was awake. As he go's through this new world he encounter's group's of people who think that all of the mutant's are actually monster's, IE, Vampires, werewolves, dragons, and many other creature's from various myths and legends from the old era. So he go's through this world trying to find out what happend to the the old world. He discovers a lot in the process of helping out the people of this new earth. That is why i want to research this backstory to death. Make sure i have all of the hole's filled up.


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## LeeC (Feb 18, 2016)

I think here, some are missing an underlying point. There's nothing wrong with throwing out ideas Rojack79, we're here to help each other.  I also think you should stick to your guns, tempered however you see fit with the feedback.

The underlying point though is in part what Bishop is touching on. There's a lot of crazy ideas that have made for good books, and there's even more that have made good flops. The overriding difference is how well the writer's conveyance of their story suspends belief in the reader's mind's eye. Readers like to go on flights of fancy, if the writer is proficient enough to take them there. 

So what I'm thinking Rojack79 is of course get an idea of where you're heading, what seems comfortable and doable to you. But after narrowing in on the details/devices of your story, concentrate on the writing skills it takes to pull off the story. Feedback in that area is even more beneficial ;-) 

May the pen be with you


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## Rojack79 (Feb 18, 2016)

Thank you LeeC. That help's a lot. So get on track and write the story so that both and the reader and i can understand it and write it so that it comes out as a good work of fiction rather than some discombobulated jumble of idea's all throne together in a blender set for puree.


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## Stormcat (Feb 18, 2016)

Rojack79 said:


> And yet the movie Alien's is still one of the best sci-fi movie's to this day despite the alien being able to latch onto the nearest human and reproduce while taking on aspect's of there human host. I know what extremophile's are. They are bacteria (mostly) that live in the harshest environment's known to man. Seriously if every piece of science fiction was judged by its scientific accuracy more than half of it would be wastes of paper.



The aliens in "Alien" technically weren't extremophiles. They were parasites. Parasites occur in real life.

Anyways, I'm going to sound extremely hypocritical for saying this, But stop doing research and get back to writing. You're honestly worse than I am when it comes to overthinking things!


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## Rojack79 (Feb 18, 2016)

Stormcat said:


> Anyways, I'm going to sound extremely hypocritical for saying this, But stop doing research and get back to writing.


Well i don't see you being hypocritical but i will get back to writing.


Stormcat said:


> You're honestly worse than I am when it comes to overthinking things!


Yes yes i am. That is i think my worst flaw when it come's to writing.


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## Terry D (Feb 18, 2016)

Stormcat said:


> Extremophiles are called that because they thrive in extreme environments. It's Not even in the same genus as animals, it's another class entirely.



Not true. Extremeophile is a word used to describe a variety of plants, animals, and bacteria which can withstand, even thrive in harsh conditions. They are, however, animals, plants and bacteria, not 'something else'. The most extreme extremeophile of all -- the tardigrades (AKA Water Bears) -- are animals. Most extremophiles are bacteria and algae. Animals aren't in a genus; Animals are in the Kingdom Animalia which is further subdivided into phyla, *class*, family, *genus*, and species. Other extremophiles belong to the bacteria, and plant kingdoms -- and to varrious phyla, classes, and families within them.


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## Bishop (Feb 18, 2016)

Rojack79 said:


> I am really glad you asked. Honestly you might be right about all of this not being necessary but the reason i have all of this in the story is so i can explain why there are a bunch of creature's from a fantasy story in the real world. So 500 after the human race has practically annihilated itself in an attempt to stop a few other apocalyptic disaster's the human race is struggling to get back on it's feet. Now the main plot of the book is that a super soldier from the 22nd century has been on ice for the past 500 year's. He wake's up to find the world is drastically changed from the last time he was awake. As he go's through this new world he encounter's group's of people who think that all of the mutant's are actually monster's, IE, Vampires, werewolves, dragons, and many other creature's from various myths and legends from the old era. So he go's through this world trying to find out what happend to the the old world. He discovers a lot in the process of helping out the people of this new earth. That is why i want to research this backstory to death. Make sure i have all of the hole's filled up.



So here's something I'd like to point out: in 166 words you described the _setup to a plot._ But not an actual plot. A plot for a novel needs to be summarized in about 20 words, in my experience, otherwise the novel is likely far too jumbled. Like Stephen King's IT : A group of friends is forced back to their home town to face the evil that haunted them as children. My first novel: Blue-collar salvagers find evidence of a galactic conspiracy, chasing its secrets while hunted by a mysterious organization. It can be a tricky thing to do, especially with larger books, but it's necessary to distill the work to its core, and most important element: the story.

A lot of people get caught up in world building, but if it hinders the development of the story itself, it's just over-design. How much of your story is this soldier's quest toward a single, ultimate goal, and how much of it is just him meandering in this 'new world' looking for information about the old era? How much of it is a conveyor belt of him encountering this monster, that mutant, or this person, VS actually facing these creatures toward an ultimate end? Basically, what's his GOAL? Because that goal's success or failure is the climax of your story, and for now all you have is the sandbox in which to toss him.

Another thing: Sci-fi, by its very nature, will always have holes. Especially soft sci-fi/fantasy, which you seem to be gravitating to. If this is what you want to do, do NOT try to explain it with real science. Because that science doesn't exist. There's a reason the warp drives in my novels don't get quantified. Because warp drives don't exist, and I'm not an astrophysicist. And frankly? My readers don't care. They just want the space ship to go fast. And so do I. BUT in order to even TALK about FAKE drives in the books, I've read dozens of theories on FTL travel, and my drives touch on the ideas laid out for the hypothetical Alcubierre warp drive, an actual theorized method of faster than light propulsion. I scoured NASA sources, read everything I could on theories of folding space and gravitational waves... all so I can properly go "Shhoooommmm!" in my novels.


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## Sam (Feb 18, 2016)

Here's your problem, Rojack. 

I assume you like playing video games, and in the canon of video games you have series like Fallout, Crysis, and Borderlands. These games contain post-apocalyptic wastelands, with plasma rifles, DNA splicing, power armour, and advanced technology. 

Games can get away with these things because they're supposed to be fun and over-the-top. Nobody questions it because they're too busy playing the game. 

When you're writing science-fiction, however, you don't have this luxury. The people who will be reading your story are avid readers of science-fiction. They've probably read the works of Dick, Asimov, Bester, Brunner, Clarke, Heinlein, Wells, and the giants of sf. What that means is that they won't be very enamoured with your Hollywood science. 

More that any other genre, sf requires serious knowledge and research.


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## Gofa (Feb 18, 2016)

Look at the double helix depictions and then goggle triple helix. 

Feb 21, 2008 - In this review we discuss the biological consequences and therapeutic potential of *triple helical DNA* ...

my point here is its like finding a tow bar on the back of a car.  Oh wahoo what can i attach here

even better was something removed or are we evolving a third or did the mother ship suppress the third strand 

not hard to use this as a basis    Again if three why not four or five or whatever

currently they use third helix to attach cancer suppressing genes.  Turn that sucker on its head and attach amplifiers


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## Rojack79 (Feb 18, 2016)

Gofa said:


> Look at the double helix depictions and then goggle triple helix.
> 
> Feb 21, 2008 - In this review we discuss the biological consequences and therapeutic potential of *triple helical DNA* ...
> 
> ...


That is something i will definitely research later.


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## Makili (May 19, 2016)

A suggestion - instead of getting your head around the genetic engineering, maybe try to explain your fantasy world's creatures as products of evolution. Genetic mutations are created with increased radiation (human-induced or from the sun due to ozone holes). They are a basis for natural selection, in the drastically changed natural conditions like the lack of resources (water, food, polluted air and change in light levels etc...), climate change etc. So those selective pressures shaped particular sub-species/species that evolved specialised features to deal with particular environmental pressures. 
This process, however, takes much more time than artificial genetic engineering, but is biologocially, at least, more feasible...


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## Rojack79 (May 27, 2016)

That would work. The main story does take place 500 years after the end of the world. So evolution of the monsters would work.


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## LazarettoKiddo (Jun 22, 2016)

I'd look towards "Fullmetal Alchemist" by Hiromu Arakawa, and "The Island of Dr. Moreau" by H.G. Wells. They tackle human-animal hybrids in different ways. I'd recommend the movie "Splice" as a silly B-movie about a similar topic. David Cronenberg''s "The Fly" features accidental splicing.


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