# Why Your Work Disappoints You



## Kyle R (Dec 11, 2014)

Last night I got depressed looking at my rejections folder—a stack of form letters so high you'd set a world record were you to climb it. So I scoured the internet, searching for motivation to keep up the good fight.

I came across this nugget lying in a dusty corner of the web, and something in it resonated for me. Thought I'd share it with you all. Maybe something in it will resonate for you, too. :encouragement:

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What nobody tells people who are beginners — and I really wish someone had told this to me . . . is that all of us who do creative work, we get into it because we have good taste. But there is this gap. For the first couple years you make stuff, and it’s just not that good. It’s trying to be good, it has potential, but it’s not.

But your taste, the thing that got you into the game, is still killer. And your taste is why your work disappoints you. A lot of people never get past this phase. They quit. Most people I know who do interesting, creative work went through years of this. We know our work doesn’t have this special thing that we want it to have. We all go through this. And if you are just starting out or you are still in this phase, you gotta know it’s normal and the most important thing you can do is do a lot of work. Put yourself on a deadline so that every week you will finish one story.

It is only by going through a volume of work that you will close that gap, and your work will be as good as your ambitions. And I took longer to figure out how to do this than anyone I’ve ever met. It’s gonna take awhile. It’s normal to take awhile. You’ve just gotta fight your way through.

_- Ira Glass, from PRI's This American Life, 2011_


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## Deafmute (Dec 11, 2014)

great passage, I agree completely. I read amazing things, and in my mind I can construct these incredible scenes and incredible plot lines, with twists and drama that tear at my heart. The problem is that it is so hard to get the pictures in my head out onto the paper. To make them paint a picture that anyone can follow and see the same thing I see. And what is harder still is that when I read it I do see that picture, because that is what i saw when i first wrote it, so it can be hard to tell that your own work is not measuring up to the greats because I still get the same quality picture in my head when I read my own stuff as when I read theirs, but its not the same. 

Coming up with the picture is only half the job. The great works take a picture that was once in someone else's head and put it in yours, 

...that and dialogue, I suck at dialogue


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## Gavrushka (Dec 11, 2014)

As a writer, we think we're awesome at two stages in our literary career. - The first is that naive and delightful period up to our first rejection. - I'll come clean - until I received mine, I was convinced I would outshine J K Rowling for popularity. - Well, four years, millions of words and ten thousand hours have passed since that point, and I am still searching for the second coming of the awesome. -It's better searching than waiting for it to knock on my door, as I doubt very much it will know where I live otherwise...


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## popsprocket (Dec 11, 2014)

It's a good quote that one, though I don't think I've ever seen it attributed to the same person twice.


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## Schrody (Dec 11, 2014)

Well, nobody said writing is easy. If you don't practice you'll never get any better. A writer's life is full of disappointment, but also enriches us in imaginable ways. Be persistent, work hard, and even if it's not good as you wanted it to be at least you'll knew you did the best you can.


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## Sam (Dec 11, 2014)

Here's one for the psychologists. 

My work never disappoints me. Yes, I often feel that it could be improved upon, but it never disappoints me. The reason why it does for most people, I would surmise, is that they are seeking perfection. I've never sought perfection. As cheesy as it sounds, I write because I love writing. When you try to write everything perfect, of course you're going to be disappointed. 

An old teacher of mine, who, coincidentally, is now a psychology professor, once said to me: "If you have no expectations, you'll never be disappointed".


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## Terry D (Dec 11, 2014)

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times][SIZE=+1]_I am irritated by my own writing. I am like a violinist whose ear is true, but whose fingers refuse to reproduce precisely the sound he hears within_. --- [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times][SIZE=+1]Gustave Flaubert

I, however, am not Flaubert. I like what I write. I like the start of the old novels I've given up on. I don't for a moment believe my work is perfect, but it has perfect moments. When I hear that a reader had a visceral reaction to something in my book, that they wrapped my book in plastic to take it into the shower with them to keep reading (actually happened), that an editor actually came to tears reading a story of mine, well, those are perfect moments. Perfection in writing, IMO, is in the reaction to the work not in its execution. I've seen too many pieces that touched all the right buttons, that checked off all the right techniques, but which had no soul. A draft may disappoint me, but the end product... never.[/SIZE][/FONT]


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## dale (Dec 11, 2014)

i don't let rejections get me down because i haven't even tried to write anything "commercial" yet. am i ever 
disappointed in my work? every bit of it. or 1/2 of me is, anyway. i'm 1/2 arrogant - 1/2 insecure about pretty much everything. ha ha. one of these days though, i'm actually gonna TRY to write something for the pro-pay market.
 i mean like hitchcock mystery mag or clarkesworld or whatever. it won't be a story i'll like. i just wanna know if
 i can do that. and if that gets rejected? i might be "down" about that rejection. but i think it's good
to be disappointed in my own work, really. it's how i keep moving forward. never being satisfied with it.


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## Sam (Dec 11, 2014)

Yeah, but I think you can be unsatisfied with something without being disappointed about it.


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## dale (Dec 11, 2014)

Sam said:


> Yeah, but I think you can be unsatisfied with something without being disappointed about it.



well, the disappointment is more from what they "lack" than what they "are".


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## TKent (Dec 11, 2014)

I submitted a flash piece to a handful of places and weird as it sounds, I'm actually looking forward to any response, even a rejection. That will be pretty cool, to get my first rejection.  

Actually, I got one almost instantaneously. Rampant Media has several pubs so I thought I was submitting to Stupifying Stories but accidentally submitted to the other one. The editor immediately responded that my story was too short and the topic didn't fit, but appreciated my enthusiasm. I apologized profusely for wasting his time. Hate that I'm already on their list of dummies but it was a learning experience.



- - - Updated - - -

I will say that although overall, I'm not happy with my writing, I do find sentences and paragraphs that I like more and more often as time goes by. That's encouragement enough to keep on plugging away.


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## InstituteMan (Dec 11, 2014)

I like to call this my reach exceeding my grasp. I can appreciate better work than I can produce. That gap bedevils all of us, at least those of us with some level of self awareness.

I am something of a recovering perfectionist. Lowering my standards for my writing was a huge help in improving my writing, because I was never able to write more than a few sentences when I demanded perfection of myself. Now that failure at writing, and even flat out terribleness, is something I am okay with, I am producing far more and enjoying the process. It took some time and experience and maturation to let myself write poorly.


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## S.T. Ranger (Dec 11, 2014)

Terry D said:


> [SIZE=+1]_I am irritated by my own writing. I am like a violinist whose ear is true, but whose fingers refuse to reproduce precisely the sound he hears within_. --- [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Gustave Flaubert
> 
> I, however, am not Flaubert. I like what I write. I like the start of the old novels I've given up on. I don't for a moment believe my work is perfect, but it has perfect moments. When I hear that a reader had a visceral reaction to something in my book, that they wrapped my book in plastic to take it into the shower with them to keep reading (actually happened), that an editor actually came to tears reading a story of mine, well, those are perfect moments. Perfection in writing, IMO, is in the reaction to the work not in its execution. I've seen too many pieces that touched all the right buttons, that checked off all the right techniques, but which had no soul. A draft may disappoint me, but the end product... never.[/SIZE]



Great statement. 

I think it probably best to keep in mind that no single author is going to appeal to everyone (well, Tolkien excluded, lol), and that most authors are going to have an audience that connects to the unique and individual perspective and approach of that author. And as mentioned concerning hard work, that is true for nearly everything one approaches as an endeavor, where most can, by reason of use, perfect a unique delivery which will one day appeal to others. A suggestion for those disheartened or discouraged might be to go back and look at early works. See if you can recognize growth and change since you began. Understand that is it highly likely that growth...will never stop.

As long as you keep working at it.


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## Bishop (Dec 11, 2014)

Sam said:


> My work never disappoints me. Yes, I often feel that it could be improved upon, but it never disappoints me. The reason why it does for most people, I would surmise, is that they are seeking perfection. I've never sought perfection. As cheesy as it sounds, I write because I love writing. When you try to write everything perfect, of course you're going to be disappointed.



My mindset as well. I'm not looking for fame or glory or publishing. I just write because I love the craft. Every story I complete annoys me for one reason or the next, but I'm always proud of myself for finishing. Then, I move onto the next one. I just keep going, because that's what I do.


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## S.T. Ranger (Dec 11, 2014)

Bishop said:


> My mindset as well. I'm not looking for fame or glory or publishing. I just write because I love the craft. Every story I complete annoys me for one reason or the next, but I'm always proud of myself for finishing. Then, I move onto the next one. I just keep going, because that's what I do.



Just to mention, words translated from the Greek to English using "perfect, perfected," or "perfection" actually have a meaning of completion in the original language, which in our modern word and use has a different connotation. So I would say you have a standard of "perfection" which I think most people have, lol. A sense of accomplishment is something I think most people can relate to.

And I would also add that sometimes it is the imperfections which set writers apart.


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## Awanita (Dec 11, 2014)

My thoughts maybe wacked out but I feel rejection letters are encouragment. Everyone I get makes me work harder so when the day comes I get "The yes one" I'll have truely earned and worked hard for it.


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## Bishop (Dec 11, 2014)

Maybe it's just much easier to be proud of your work when you're not looking for publication. Or maybe I'm just too easy-going, and really should be stressing out more.


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## S.T. Ranger (Dec 11, 2014)

Awanita said:


> My thoughts maybe wacked out but I feel rejection letters are encouragment. Everyone I get makes me work harder so when the day comes I get "The yes one" I'll have truely earned and worked hard for it.



Again it is that sense of accomplishment that most people understand and appreciate. Not much different from a good, hard day at work for most people. 

Not having ever submitted anything, lol, not sure how I will react to rejection, but I like to think (in light of what I usually deal with, lol) that rejection is not something that impacts me on an emotional basis, because it is already expected due to the nature of certain issues. So too, I, and perhaps most writers, are not aware that rejection is just commonplace, lol. Correct me if I am wrong in that. So I think most will probably not be so confident that their work is going to receive rave reviews right off the bat. 

I wouldn't view your perspective as wacked out, but beneficial, and good advice as well.

- - - Updated - - -



Bishop said:


> Maybe it's just much easier to be proud of your work when you're not looking for publication. Or maybe I'm just too easy-going, and really should be stressing out more.



You're not looking to publish your work?


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## Bishop (Dec 11, 2014)

S.T. Ranger said:


> You're not looking to publish your work?



Not at the moment. I live a fairly stress-free life, good wife, decent job, ample video game time... Writing's just my hobby, something I do for myself and a few select close friends who also enjoy sci fi and enjoy reading what I write. With their help and the help of the forum, I get better at it and just do my best to be the best I can at it. I like my stories, but I have no blinding need for fame and fortune.


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## dale (Dec 11, 2014)

a blinding need for fame and fortune will get you nowhere in writing. what you need is a blinding need for revenge.


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## Bishop (Dec 11, 2014)

dale said:


> a blinding need for fame and fortune will get you nowhere in writing. what you need is a blinding need for revenge.


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## S.T. Ranger (Dec 11, 2014)

Bishop said:


>



...um...er...um...hmmm...er...

(so captions are not my forte...)


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## dale (Dec 11, 2014)

Bishop said:


>



lol. actually, something tells me barack obama would understand what i said completely.


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## dither (Dec 11, 2014)

To hell with ambition.

I'd be happy if something of mine got onto the back of a cigarette packet.
Oh dear, even "that's" ambition, i suppose.


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## dither (Dec 11, 2014)

Terry D said:


> [SIZE=+1]_I am irritated by my own writing. I am like a violinist whose ear is true, but whose fingers refuse to reproduce precisely the sound he hears within_. --- [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Gustave Flaubert
> 
> I, however, am not Flaubert. I like what I write. I like the start of the old novels I've given up on. I don't for a moment believe my work is perfect, but it has perfect moments. When I hear that a reader had a visceral reaction to something in my book, that they wrapped my book in plastic to take it into the shower with them to keep reading (actually happened), that an editor actually came to tears reading a story of mine, well, those are perfect moments. Perfection in writing, IMO, is in the reaction to the work not in its execution. I've seen too many pieces that touched all the right buttons, that checked off all the right techniques, but which had no soul. A draft may disappoint me, but the end product... never.[/SIZE]



I guess that maybe, in my case, believe it or not, i AM a perfectionist. I've a long way to go. But seriously, i can read stuff that i've put together and find myself being transported to past experiences almost, but that's me. Problem is, as i see it, it's all just so damn boring. Whatever i do it's just, i don't know, doesn't quite hit the target, there's something missing. So, i'll just keeping spilling my guts and reaping the therapeutic benefit of it all. I sure do feel a sense of release sometimes. Of having some how unburdened myself, got it, whatever "it" may be off my chest, y'know?


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## S.T. Ranger (Dec 11, 2014)

dale said:


> lol. actually, something tells me barack obama would understand what i said completely.






Previous Announcement said:


>


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## Gamer_2k4 (Dec 11, 2014)

dale said:


> i don't let rejections get me down because i haven't even tried to write anything "commercial" yet. am i ever
> disappointed in my work? every bit of it. or 1/2 of me is, anyway. i'm 1/2 arrogant - 1/2 insecure about pretty much everything. ha ha. one of these days though, i'm actually gonna TRY to write something for the pro-pay market.
> i mean like hitchcock mystery mag or clarkesworld or whatever. it won't be a story i'll like. i just wanna know if
> i can do that. and if that gets rejected? i might be "down" about that rejection. but i think it's good
> to be disappointed in my own work, really. it's how i keep moving forward. never being satisfied with it.



That's a concerning point of view.  "One of these days, I'll write something a publisher might be interested in.  Not yet, though.  Later."

How do you measure success and quality but through publication and public interest? What good does it do you (or anyone) to work in the kind of bubble you seem to be talking about?


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## dale (Dec 11, 2014)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> That's a concerning point of view.  "One of these days, I'll write something a publisher might be interested in.  Not yet, though.  Later."
> 
> How do you measure success and quality but through publication and public interest? What good does it do you (or anyone) to work in the kind of bubble you seem to be talking about?


most of what i've written HAS been published. i know i'm a good enough writer to be "published" already.
that's not a concern of mine. but i also know the "why" as far as the reasons my work has never been picked
 up by really high-end publications. i've had a couple of them straight up tell me the "why". 
1. my writing style is heavily influenced by early 20th century writers. it comes off as not "modern" enough.
2. a lot of my stories tend to be somewhat antagonistic or offensive to certain groups of people.

what i'm saying is...one of these days, i'm gonna actually TRY to write a modern styled story with commercial appeal.
i won't particularly LIKE writing it, though. i know that much.


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## Bishop (Dec 11, 2014)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> How do you measure success and quality but through publication and public interest?



He who measures himself by only the perception of others has no understanding of self.

Well, it sounded poignant in my head, anyway... Success for me is just becoming better at my craft, by producing stories, and continuing to grow as a writer. Publication and public interest means nothing to me. All I care about is getting better at writing just to be better at writing. It's a pursuit I'll never complete, a lifelong chase with no endgame.


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## dale (Dec 11, 2014)

Bishop said:


> He who measures himself by only the perception of others has no understanding of self.
> 
> Well, it sounded poignant in my head, anyway... Success for me is just becoming better at my craft, by producing stories, and continuing to grow as a writer. Publication and public interest means nothing to me. All I care about is getting better at writing just to be better at writing. It's a pursuit I'll never complete, a lifelong chase with no endgame.



holy crap. i just realized something. where the hell is kurt russell?


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## Bishop (Dec 11, 2014)

dale said:


> holy crap. i just realized something. where the hell is kurt russell?



California, most likely.


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## Terry D (Dec 11, 2014)

Bishop said:


> He who measures himself by only the perception of others has no understanding of self.
> 
> Well, it sounded poignant in my head, anyway... Success for me is just becoming better at my craft, by producing stories, and continuing to grow as a writer. Publication and public interest means nothing to me. All I care about is getting better at writing just to be better at writing. It's a pursuit I'll never complete, a lifelong chase with no endgame.



My take is a bit different. I write not just to please myself, but to entertain others in a way which I enjoy being entertained. I judge my writing by whether or not it 'works' as I intended it to. That's not something I can judge very well for myself, so I need other people to read and react to my stories. I don't need validation, I need reaction.


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## S.T. Ranger (Dec 11, 2014)

Bishop said:


> California, most likely.



I would guess Little China...


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## Bishop (Dec 11, 2014)

Terry D said:


> My take is a bit different. I write not just to please myself, but to entertain others in a way which I enjoy being entertained. I judge my writing by whether or not it 'works' as I intended it to. That's not something I can judge very well for myself, so I need other people to read and react to my stories. I don't need validation, I need reaction.



I totally agree that other people are a necessary part of the equation. I become a better writer partly by others' reactions. Otherwise, there'd be no point to all of my LM entries and the giant red letters in my signature right now.


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## Apex (Dec 11, 2014)

Kyle R said:


> Last night I got depressed looking at my rejections folder—a stack of form letters so high you'd set a world record were you to climb it. So I scoured the internet, searching for motivation to keep up the good fight.
> 
> I came across this nugget lying in a dusty corner of the web, and something in it resonated for me. Thought I'd share it with you all. Maybe something in it will resonate for you, too. :encouragement:
> 
> ...




Kyle,
You may have a good book. You may even have a great book. Perhaps it is time to take off the writers hat, and put on the sellers hat. Most find the query letter harder to write than the book. A query is a business letter. It is a three second chance to sell your work. It must contain what an agent is looking for. Agents are not bad guys. They pray every time they open a query: "Oh dear God, let this one be a winner."

We as writers must know how agents think. What are they looking for in a query? How much do I as a writer know about this agent?

When I was twelve years old, I used to run errands for people in up State New York. One of my clients sic, Mister Al Sardo, was somewhat shady. He had a reputation for being a con man. Mister Sardo lived in a hotel. As a kid I thought that was great. One morning he saw me, and said, “Son, I have an important errand for you. I want you to take my shirts to the cleaners, and wait there for them.” That was a two dollar gig. On the way up the elevator Mister Sardo offer a stranger a cigarette. “I don’t smoke,” replied the stranger. Mister Sardo said, “That’s okay. Just try one puff.” Again the stranger refused. “Be a sport,” said Mister Sardo. I’m trying to teach the kid something.”
The stranger took a puff, and Mister Sardo thanked him. When we got to his room I asked, “What was the lesson?” “You can make anybody do whatever you want them to do.” 
I have never forgotten that lesson.  The same can be done with a query.
Before you query an agent, find out everything about that agent you can.

What books has she sold? Who were the publishers? Did the book sell good? Read the book. Tell the agent why you want her as your agent…because of the wonderful job she did selling so and so book. Yes they also like to have smoked blown up their butt. Tell her something (not much) about you manuscript…in three sentences of less. Do the same about yourself.
Keep the query short, sweet, and to the point.  Agents can tell how you write by your query. Does this writer keep his writing tight, or is it full of flab?

FIND OUT EVERYTHING ABOUT THE AGENTS YOU QUERY...EVERTHING.


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## Sam (Dec 11, 2014)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> That's a concerning point of view.  "One of these days, I'll write something a publisher might be interested in.  Not yet, though.  Later."
> 
> How do you measure success and quality but through publication and public interest? What good does it do you (or anyone) to work in the kind of bubble you seem to be talking about?



You think fame and popularity are accurate measurements of quality writing? 

That would be hilarious if you weren't serious.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Dec 11, 2014)

Bishop said:


> He who measures himself by only the perception of others has no understanding of self.



And the man who measures only by his own perception has no measure at all.

Two can play the poignancy game! You say you only care about getting better at writing, but I'm curious as to how you judge "better" without soliciting outside input.  To me, that would be like calling myself a good boxer because I can beat the stuffing out of a punching bag.  Yes, in my own eyes and from my own perspective, that's progress.  But in order to truly be considered good, I need to get out there.  I need to fight.  I need to improve in the eyes of others - in rankings, in medals, in belts.  With the world of writing, in publication.  How exactly do you know you're getting better if you only care about your own opinion?



Sam said:


> You think fame and popularity are accurate measurements of quality writing?
> 
> That would be hilarious if you weren't serious.



Nothing is absolute, of course, but I think in general terms, published novels are going to contain more quality writing than unpublished or self-published novels.  Can you have gems with the latter two? No doubt, just like you can have garbage that makes it past an editor's desk.  But in general, something that passes a professional editor's muster is going to be better than something that hasn't.


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## Kyle R (Dec 11, 2014)

Apex said:


> Kyle,
> You may have a good book. You may even have a great book. Perhaps it is time to take off the writers hat, and put on the sellers hat. Most find the query letter harder to write than the book. A query is a business letter. It is a three second chance to sell your work. It must contain what an agent is looking for. Agents are not bad guys. They pray every time they open a query: "Oh dear God, let this one be a winner."



Hi Apex. I was actually referring to my rejections from the professional short fiction market. But yes, I completely agree with you about novel queries!  

The craft of a well-written novel query is, indeed, very important. Thanks for pointing that out.

I haven't written my novel query yet, but when I do, I'll be following Noah Lukeman's advice in his free e-book, _How to Write a Great Query_.

Good advice on researching agents, too. I'll be sure to do that! :encouragement:


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## Bishop (Dec 11, 2014)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> And the man who measures only by his own perception has no measure at all.



Untrue, but I'll explain that as I speak to your next point.



Gamer_2k4 said:


> Two can play the poignancy game! You say you only care about getting better at writing, but I'm curious as to how you judge "better" without soliciting outside input.  To me, that would be like calling myself a good boxer because I can beat the stuffing out of a punching bag.  Yes, in my own eyes and from my own perspective, that's progress.  But in order to truly be considered good, I need to get out there.  I need to fight.  I need to improve in the eyes of others - in rankings, in medals, in belts.  With the world of writing, in publication.  How exactly do you know you're getting better if you only care about your own opinion?



While I never said I never solicit outside input, there is a way to judge yourself without outside input. 

Reading. I, as an educated man, can look at a novel and read it and see what it did better than my novel. I can read something by Heinlein or Asimov and it shows me exactly what I did wrong in my own book. Similarly, I can see what I did right when I read bad books. It's not a matter of opinion, it's fact. I can look at what other people have done, compare it to what I have done, and realize how I should do better.

It's obviously not the only way to advance, because outside input does help. But the reality is that we grow as writers with every word we write and every word we read, outside input or not. That's why, despite no one ever having seen my first pieces of writing, I can look at them now and know what's wrong with them. I've grown into a better writer by practice.

Not to mention, you can often just 'feel' when your prose is bad. I go back and read some parts of my books and get a sick feeling in my stomach and immediately have to alter it. Not by comparing it to someone else, just by looking at it and knowing, "Bish, you can do better than that..."

Your boxing analogy is also unfounded. Competition is the entire sport, one-on-one, conquering another. Writing is entirely solitary. I write my book to tell my story, not to write that story better than you. If your goal is sales, the latter might be true, but even then, you don't write against other people, there's no declared winner or loser. Subjectivity cannot be measured objectively. Is the Mona Lisa better art than the Sistine Chapel? Like the LM, we can assign scores, but even then it's entirely based on the opinion of the score giver, who deep down might prefer My Little Pony fan art. It's art. It can't be weighed and measured like a sport, even when we try in good conscience. 



Gamer_2k4 said:


> Nothing is absolute, of course, but I think in general terms, published novels are going to contain more quality writing than unpublished or self-published novels.  Can you have gems with the latter two? No doubt, just like you can have garbage that makes it past an editor's desk.  *But in general, something that passes a professional editor's muster is going to be better than something that hasn't.*



The greatest book ever written might never have been published. Its author may have died long before he ever tried to get published--or maybe like me, he didn't care about getting published. Some of the greatest musicians of our time might never perform, only sitting in their basements, playing the violin for themselves. With art, certainty is impossible. Subjectivity is also too large a part of the process; you may think 50 Shades is the greatest novel ever written, and I might not.


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## Kyle R (Dec 11, 2014)

Van Gogh created over 2,000 original works in his lifetime.

Out of all of them, he only managed to sell *one*. To a family friend.

Penniless and depressed, he killed himself.

About his lack of success, he said, "*I can't change the fact that my paintings don't sell. But the time will come when people will recognize that they are worth more than the value of the paints used in the picture.
*
After his passing, it was his sister-in-law who made his art known to the world.


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## dale (Dec 11, 2014)

Kyle R said:


> Van Gogh created over 2,000 original works in his lifetime.
> 
> Out of all of them, he only managed to sell *one*. To a family friend.
> 
> ...



pretty much the same for lovecraft. he got like $160 for "the call of cthulu". died a depressed man and pretty much broke. 
his friends and associates made his work famous a few years after his death.


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## Kyle R (Dec 11, 2014)

Sad stories, both of them! 

I demand we start supporting our struggling artists and writers more!

I nominate myself. Cash donations only, please!


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## patskywriter (Dec 11, 2014)

Kyle R said:


> Last night I got depressed looking at my rejections folder—a stack of form letters so high you'd set a world record were you to climb it. _… _



This might be silly to point out, but I'm going to do it anyway. Why even keep the form letters if they only serve to upset you? Why not create a lil ole database and list the pertinent data: agency/company name, date of submission, date and type of response, etc etc. You can also create a field where you list the agents' names (in case they leave for different agencies/companies). Then throw the original forms in the trash and set your mind on its relentless trek forward toward success.

You're welcome.


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## dale (Dec 11, 2014)

lol. lovecraft kind of fits this thread topic. he was always disappointed and ashamed of his work. a lot of what is out in books now
of him are 1st draft manuscripts he wrote and was so ashamed of, he threw them in a drawer and didn't even try to send them out anywhere.


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## patskywriter (Dec 11, 2014)

dale said:


> lol. lovecraft kind of fits this thread topic. he was always disappointed and ashamed of his work. a lot of what is out in books now
> of him are 1st draft manuscripts he wrote and was so ashamed of, he threw them in a drawer and didn't even try to send them out anywhere.



That's a lot better than those classical guys whose works were found wrapped around fish years after their deaths (the composers, not the fish).


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## bookmasta (Dec 11, 2014)

While there are flaws in my work at times, I don't feel disappointed with my writing. Rarely, do I feel content either. I'm simply focused on continual improvement instead.


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## T.S.Bowman (Dec 11, 2014)

Sam said:


> An old teacher of mine, who, coincidentally, is now a psychology professor, once said to me: "If you have no expectations, you'll never be disappointed".



The really funny thing about that....

It's not supposed to be a positive idea. LOL

I don't really get didasppointed in my work. I am but a novice, after all.

Every time I look back to the beginning of my novel, I know I can write better than what shows on the pages.

To me, that is far from disappointing. It's actually very uplifting. It makes me more aware that I am a better writer than I was when I first decided to get that damn story out of my head.


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## dale (Dec 12, 2014)

Sam said:


> An old teacher of mine, who, coincidentally, is now a psychology professor......



oh. well. i stopped right there. i've read freud. all psychology professors are like guano-crazy.


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## Sam (Dec 12, 2014)

dale said:


> oh. well. i stopped right there. i've read freud. all psychology professors are like guano-crazy.



I've read Freud too. 

And that makes me an expert on every psychology professor in the world? In point of fact, my psychology professor hated Freud with a passion.


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## dale (Dec 12, 2014)

Sam said:


> I've read Freud too.
> 
> And that makes me an expert on every psychology professor in the world? In point of fact, my psychology professor hated Freud with a passion.



 lol yeah. i was joking. or at least i think i was.


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## Apex (Dec 12, 2014)

Kyle R said:


> Hi Apex. I was actually referring to my rejections from the professional short fiction market. But yes, I completely agree with you about novel queries!
> 
> The craft of a well-written novel query is, indeed, very important. Thanks for pointing that out.
> 
> ...



Many of the good agents have had interviews…these tell much about the agent. You can also make mention of it in your query.
How to find an interview?
Interview with literary agent “Name.”


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## Gavrushka (Dec 13, 2014)

I must be incredibly naive. - For some reason, I'd imagined an agent would base their decision more on your prose than on the accompanying query letter. - Although I write the best query I can, I'd never considered reading an entire book on the subject. The existence of the book upset me, suggesting writing was less an art and more a marketing exercise. - I know that'll be an emotive reaction, and the helpful book will be filled with practical advice, but the 'just write' principal seems to erode with each 'technical consideration.'

Yes, as Apex suggested, I do try to discover what I can of an agent, but always approach my query letters in a human way, talking to the person rather than forming a construct that, if everyone else is using this same rulebook, must end up pretty generic.

And, just to address the original point of this thread. - No, my work does not disappoint me now, but is still seems to do a mighty fine job of upsetting everyone else. :?


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## Kyle R (Dec 13, 2014)

Gavrushka said:


> I must be incredibly naive. - For some reason, I'd imagined an agent would base their decision more on your prose than on the accompanying query letter.



Hey Gav!

Actually, Lukeman addresses this in the first chapter of the book:







— _How To Write a Great Query,_ Noah Lukeman


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## Gavrushka (Dec 13, 2014)

Ah, I've yet to send a query letter without accompanying excerpt. - IF it was sent in isolation, I'd not argue. - I've not come across agents asking for a query up front, however.

Mind you, I've only sent one batch on seven submissions last month, six for a novel I do not consider strong enough. As expected, I've received two rejections to date, one was a personal one though, encouraging me to send more. - The query letter was an email I'd written in considerably less than an hour (with hindsight, I accept that was foolish) with synopsis and excerpt attached.

Perhaps it's different on your side of the Atlantic. I have noticed UK agents, as a rule, do not accept submissions from the US (not sure about Canada).


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## Sam (Dec 13, 2014)

Query letters are your first point of contact with a publisher. They won't read the manuscript before reading one, so it had better be the best damn query letter you have ever written. Will a publisher bin your manuscript if the query letter is bad? With extreme prejudice. Why? Because they'll take one look at your letter and, if it's shoddy or littered with mistakes, they'll say to themselves: "If this guy can't write a hundred words without a mistake, what's his manuscript going to be like?" 

It doesn't matter if you've written the next great American novel, or the next best-seller; if you don't take the time to learn to write a good query letter, you're shooting yourself in the foot.


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## Gavrushka (Dec 13, 2014)

I have two feet, the NHS is free over here, and I'll try hard not to shoot the other one. And no, I've never sent a query letter littered with mistakes or oozing shoddiness, but I do take your point.


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## bazz cargo (Dec 15, 2014)

My work does not disappoint me. I do wonder at where it comes from, what deep, psychotic hole it lurks in. Sure I could do better but I'm amazed I can do it at all.


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## Morkonan (Dec 15, 2014)

Kyle R said:


> ...._- Ira Glass, from PRI's This American Life, 2011_



I'm always transfixed by that show, in awe of how good it can be. It's not surprising he came up with a pretty good quote on the subject.


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## Gavrushka (Dec 26, 2014)

Kyle R said:


> Hey Gav!
> 
> Actually, Lukeman addresses this in the first chapter of the book:
> 
> ...



Just a quick thank you. I've downloading the ebook you suggested, and will make some headway through it in the coming days.

I submitted 'Harvester I - Jalikra' just the once, and must have been lucky to receive a 'positive personal rejection letter' from a very good agent, but I'd be a fool if I did not do all I could to enhance the prospect of future sends. - I wonder if Noah has a similar book for Synopsis writing.

Perhaps it was naive of me to think writing the novel was enough; no, make that arrogant...

*EDIT*

I think the query book may be aimed at the North American market. I'll plough on through it for useful nuggets, but I am beginning to understand why UK agents often state 'No queries from US' - Perhaps that extends to the whole of North America. 

And, LOL, for a man that talks about keeping a query letter precise, he sure has a rambling style...


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## midnightpoet (Dec 26, 2014)

I've never been disappointed with my work, just not often satisfied.  You should always strive to do your best, even if you don't care of you get published or not; however, there is a sense of accomplishment in seeing your work accepted by a publisher that you really can't describe until it happens.  Possibly it's because I often tried to get my own father's acceptance and failed that getting published meant so much to me.  I had been validated.  This was personal to me, and I hope that when others are finally published it will mean as much to them.


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## Kyle R (Dec 26, 2014)

Gavrushka said:


> Just a quick thank you. I've downloading the ebook you suggested, and will make some headway through it in the coming days.
> 
> I submitted 'Harvester I - Jalikra' just the once, and must have been lucky to receive a 'positive personal rejection letter' from a very good agent, but I'd be a fool if I did not do all I could to enhance the prospect of future sends. - I wonder if Noah has a similar book for Synopsis writing.


Glad you find it helpful! There are actually three books in the download. The query book is the third one in the package, if I remember correctly. I don't know of any synopsis book written by him, but there are lots of useful guides online about the topic. Synopses are a challenge, too, I agree!



			
				gavrushka said:
			
		

> I think the query book may be aimed at the North American market. I'll plough on through it for useful nuggets, but I am beginning to understand why UK agents often state 'No queries from US' - Perhaps that extends to the whole of North America.
> 
> And, LOL, for a man that talks about keeping a query letter precise, he sure has a rambling style...


He definitely is wordy, but I think his "Three Paragraph Rule" is worth its weight in gold.

You bring up a great point about US versus UK querying protocols. I did some research myself and found a few minor differences, but nothing major.

Nicola Morgan, bestselling and award-winning UK author, says this about the topic:


			
				Nicola Morgan said:
			
		

> . . . there’s one difference between the UK and the US when it comes to querying agents: in the UK, it’s easier because the initial letter accompanies a longer synopsis and sample chapters; in the US, your query letter is on its own. But how we actually pitch the book in the letter is the same . . .


(http://accrispin.blogspot.ca/2012/10/guest-post-dear-agent-write-letter-that.html)

Simon P. Clark (children's author, living in US, formerly from Britain), however, believes there is a clear distinction, and has a page where he breaks down the differences he's identified between US and UK querying:

http://www.simonpclark.com/2013/02/uk-and-us-query-cover-letters.html 

It's a good thing you brought up the differences between the two regions. I think that's an excellent point to consider. 

Maybe a thread devoted to discussing it in the Publishing forum would be useful? :encouragement:


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