# How do I create a black girl character as a white person?



## nannaiduna (Mar 26, 2019)

Hello fellow writers, 

I am a new member of this forum, so I don't know if aquestion like that belongs in this category of threads, but I am eager to findan answer and I hope I'll find it here. 
Also I apologize for any spelling or grammar mistakes,english is not my first language and mistakes might happen.

I am currently working on a fantasy novel, but some parts ofthe story take place in the "real world", it's also timed in todaysmodern world. One of my characters is planned to be a black girl, arround 17,18years old, and I am struggeling a little bit. I want overall LGBQT/POC-Representation. WITHOUT any cliché traits involved. For example in the firstdraft of the novel I had a Korean girl be the smart one, which now seemsextremely overdone, white washed and straight up racist. I want POC in my novelwithout giving off a vibe that I'm forcing these characters in to look like Icare about representation. It's important to give these characters a purposefor the story other than representation, and also real, believable,non-stereotypical character traits and backstories. 
- I am currently carefully researching how to create POC characters, anddescribing their looks without sounding like I am fetishizing them. I got thatI can't make comparisons to food when it comes to describing their skin tone,which is totally understandable, but I am unsure if I can just straight upwrite: "He's/ She's black/ He/ She has black skin"
Also naming my character is a little tricky, especially the last names. I gave her the name Safiya for now, which apparently is a Swahili name. 

I am thankful for any advice, and I am looking forward to your answers! 
Nanna.


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## Ralph Rotten (Mar 26, 2019)

You get the best characters when you use real people as templates.


One mistake people often make with writing minorities is that they assume that there is something special/different about a person of color.
We eat food the same as you.
We breathe air the same as you.
We listen to music the same as you do (no, not all brown people listen to Rap.)
We have netflix accounts, just like many of you do.


It's not that black people are DIFFERENT, it's that many people's perception of black people is DIFFERENT.
Ever felt socially awkward around a black person? Didn't know what to talk about, tried to think of relate-able experiences?
Next time, just talk about normal stuff...like Netflix, or that taco joint down the street. 
Not all black people are gangsters or hoodlums or speak in heavy ethnic slang.
Most work a job all day, eat at the same restaurants as you, watch the same TV shows as you, listen to the same music as you.
The biggest difference is how they are perceived by other groups, *and the fact that they are painfully aware of the perception*.


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## Ralph Rotten (Mar 26, 2019)

Lemme explain that last part:
Imagine you are of African descent, and every time you walk into a room, people start talking about how much they like Aretha Franklin, or what a wonderful actor Denzel is, or how Samuel L Jackson makes the perfect Director Fury.

Do you see the common denominator here?


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## bdcharles (Mar 26, 2019)

I have a supporting character who is black in my own fantasy WIP. I make, I think, one reference to his "coffee-coloured" - some body part, can't remember which - just to set the image, without explicitly going "look, skin colour!" but leaving the implication (that it is his skin) open. And I make sure I do similar descriptors for others - eg someone somewere lifts a "corpse-grey hand" or something (which is more like my own complexion) - just to dab equal paint on it all. Subtle imagery is the watchword if you want to make it clear that the character is of race XYZ. In terms of voice and further characterisation, yes, it will be tempting to fall back on lazy stereotypes but a quick whizz through of Youtube - anywhere, any old general content creator - will reveal a whole host of people of a variety of races who are all somewhat interchangeble, so - bathe yourself in the effluent of such people 

The risk of course there is that you made everybody awfully middle class, as I have done. My aforementioned character is the sort who harks back to some sort of Victorian-esque age, such that it informs his speech patterns etc. He calls, for instance, his male associate "chap". I rather fear he has become a "hipster"  I like him though. He's very cool, unflappable and always immaculately turned out in his brogues and gogglewear.


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## luckyscars (Mar 26, 2019)

nannaiduna said:


> Hello fellow writers,
> 
> I am a new member of this forum, so I don't know if aquestion like that belongs in this category of threads, but I am eager to findan answer and I hope I'll find it here.
> Also I apologize for any spelling or grammar mistakes,english is not my first language and mistakes might happen.
> ...



The problem with worrying about _not _writing stereotypes is you inevitably get into a situation of second-guessing everything you do, of analyzing everything, which usually results in overcompensating in the other direction - for instance by deliberately making the Asian character dumb or the black character extremely bad at basketball. Whatever the opposite of 'what group X are usually associated with' might be. 

And...that doesn't work. As right as you are to have these concerns, the reality is this: Some Asian people are really smart and some Asian people are really dumb. Some black people are drug dealers and most are not. So what? There's no rule that says you must avoid _every_ possible stereotypical characteristic imaginable. As long as your characters are suitably developed, having them possess the odd one or two 'cliche black' or 'cliche Korean' attributes won't result in a perception that you are 'fetishizing' for anybody with a working brain. It won't result in that because you will have _other _things that are unique about them. Ergo you have a good character.

It sounds like you might have sampled a little of the Kool aid when it comes to racial sensitivity, which is not your fault and in many respects is a very good thing, but as a functioning writer you need to be willing to occasionally not give too much of a crap about 'whether this is okay'. So long as you are writing with no intent to be racially insensitive or downright bigoted it is unlikely you will cross a line in any _major _way. And if you do make a gaffe, that is what getting others to read and critique your work is for. You can always go back and make these changes. But worrying about this kind of thing while drafting out the story is only going to kill your confidence.


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## epimetheus (Mar 26, 2019)

Ralph Rotten said:


> You get the best characters when you use real people as templates.



The extension being if you want to write a Korean character chill out with some Koreans, get to know their culture and internalise their speech patterns until you can faithfully replicate it (just little things like knowing that Singaporeans like to add 'la' to the end of some sentences, Filipinos point with their lips, Indians wobble their head slightly to indicate... i'm still not sure what it indicates; everything and anything as far as i can tell).


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## Sir-KP (Mar 26, 2019)

Write characters as how you need them to be instead to please certain people.

Members above pretty much have covered it with examples well done.

Because...


nannaiduna said:


> I want POC in my novelwithout giving off a vibe that I'm forcing these characters in to look like Icare about representation.


... by doing this, you have forced these characters to be in. Meanwhile....



nannaiduna said:


> It's important to give these characters a purposefor the story other than representation


... you've shown that you already have the recipe for it and you should keep this part and this part alone in mind to design your characters.


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## Squalid Glass (Mar 26, 2019)

There are some excellent responses in this thread. I hope the OP takes everyone’s advice.


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## CyberWar (Mar 26, 2019)

Stereotypes are generalizations based on empirical observation by countless people in countless interactions, and as such are overall true. The key word here is that they are _generalizations_ - features and traits that, while overall valid for the group of people they are generalized upon, are not necessarily true in each and every individual case.

That's all there really is to consider whenever you write a non-WASP character. While all people have the same basic needs, desires and motivations, and each of them is a different, unique individual, you shouldn't overlook the fact that they may have and oftentimes indeed do have some or all of the stereotypical attributes and behaviours ascribed to their ethnic/religious/other group. What matters when you seek to avoid negative stereotyping is that you do not make these attributes the _defining _element of your character. 

The question you should ask when writing a minority character is not _whether _people of any given group have stereotypical behaviours (because they do), but _why_. For example, Black hoodlums don't wear lots of bling, go about gangbanging and listen to hip-hop simply because they're Black hoodlums and that's what Black hoodlums are supposed to do - there's always a reason _why_ they do it. Usually a reason that ultimately boils down to the basic desires and needs universal among all humans - desire to belong, to fit in with the pack, desire for status and recognition, desire to secure one's basic needs and those of one's dependants. Give your characters these motivations, and suddenly their stereotypical behaviours will no longer look stereotypical at all, being merely their group's typical responses to universal problems.


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## andrewclunn (Mar 26, 2019)

If i were writing a black character, I might not mentioned their race explicitly, but might refer to a fro or dreadlocks hair style at some point or mentioning their dark eyes where the pupil and iris blend to hint strongly at their race without needed it to be stated outright.  Subtle diversity, or people who just happen to be of different backgrounds, is the way to go.  That is unless the plot itself interacts with their background.  Having race, sexuality, or other traits put out there as proxies for character development is both lazy writing and libel to get some negative backlash in the current cultural climate.


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## Gillian Dance (Mar 26, 2019)

Lots of useful tips here, taking it all in as a new member myself. I have to say I grew up with friends of many races and creeds and also tend to draw on past and present friendships and acquaintances, subtly using them as role-models for my characters. What I sometimes struggle with (as a woman) is writing convincing male voices...


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## moderan (Mar 26, 2019)

This is what I use beta readers for, to ensure that character voice is authentic enough. I don't mention age, sex, color, religion unless they're part of the story. But I have readers all over the various spectra to vet things. Often I tuckerize them to make their contributions obvious to them, in thanks.


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## SueC (Mar 26, 2019)

Hi nanna. Welcome to the discussions! 

While I write in a different style than you, I have had the same dilemma in my stories in the past. What finally brought me out of it was recalling a conversation I had with my youngest daughter when she was in high school. She told me about a boy she had met, and how nice he was. He was involved in sports, was a year older than her and drove a car. She said he was really cute and told me about some conversations they had had; and some with her friends. So in my mind I'm thinking . . . a nice _white_ boy and I tell Heidi I can't wait to meet him.

So up the walk comes this black boy, who is, indeed, very nice looking and tall and courteous. He laughs at a joke I make as we wait for Heidi to come down stairs. He is so pleasant and sweet, just like any boy I would expect Heidi to be attracted to.

The next day, I ask her point blank why she didn't tell me he was black. She looked at me for a long moment as if she didn't understand the question - and to be honest I don't think she did. "It didn't occur to me. I hardly noticed it myself," she said and that was the end of the conversation.

So, if in my head there is a black person meandering about my story, it just doesn't seem relevant to identify his ethnicity or race anymore. But I do like the idea of assigning physical traits that would give a clue to your readers, if it is a necessary component to your story.

Good discussion - thanks!


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## EmmaSohan (Mar 26, 2019)

Your goals are admirable, but, as I suspect you are discovering, inconsistent. You do not mention it, but if you avoid all stereotypes, will your portrayal be authentic. From a writing perspective only, why have a character be Korean (or British) unless that's relevant to the story?

I do not see the virtue in using encoded messages about race, like chocolate skin.

I don't think there's any happy answer to this problem. One trick I have used is names: An essentially random mnor character gets a token minority name. ("Haseem asks me to draw Starry Night on his hand.") And maybe that implies Arabic or Muslim, but it didn't matter.

My favorite was mentioning 70 pages later in casual conversation that a relatively major character was Afro-American. For me it made a statement to the reader -- it didn't matter.

And you have the same problem for males versus females. And for old people. And lawyers. Which pretty much means everyone. Good luck with that.

You might like _The Hate U Give_.


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## luckyscars (Mar 26, 2019)

EmmaSohan said:


> From a writing perspective only, why have a character be Korean (or British) unless that's relevant to the story?



This particular advice reads poorly. 

Why have a character be Korean unless that’s relevant to the story? How about why not? How about because “I (the writer) am interested in Korean culture” or “because I am sick of writing about fat pasty-butt Americans”  and want to maybe inject a little diversity because I feel like exploring different perceptions and venturing out of my comfort zone? 

Neither of those reasons necessarily has anything to do with serving the story but is nevertheless legitimate IMO. Race and ethnicity (and sexuality and gender)does not have to be a decision justified by utility. Sometimes (often) I will pick a character that’s from a different neck of the woods just to challenge myself, or yes even just because I never encounter such a “type”. 

And...it doesn’t help the story, it’s usually the opposite because it makes the story more difficult to write because I can't just make everybody dress and talk and behave like the people I know, but there’s nothing wrong with that. Suggesting one should use American-centric (or western-centric) character design unless there's a story-driven reason not to seems kind of unreasonable.


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## EmmaSohan (Mar 26, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> This particular advice reads poorly.



Touché again. Good point. What I meant was this. If I make the male in my story British then I don't have him act in a way that is typically/stereotypically British, why make him British? And of course you could have a character who was Korean and everyone expected stereotypes that he didn't fit. I was especially questioning making someone British and then going out of one's way to avoid any British stereotypes.

I think, if he was British so I could show off what I know about British males, and it has nothing to do with anything else, then I question that too. But that wasn't what I meant by my comments.



> Suggesting one should use American-centric (or western-centric) character design unless there's a story-driven reason not to seems kind of unreasonable



So, I wrote a book about a slut, and at the end of the book she was still a slut. How exactly do I determine her race and religion? I started out with the name Mei, because I like that name. Any suggests for race and religion for my serial killer? Faced with those decisions, I decided to make my characters white unless I had some reason not to or I could get away with it. I am trying to be safe and appropriate. (My slut was named May; nothing was said about race of my serial killer. I could have made him British?)

Right, absolutely lovely to try to write a story about a Muslim. I do not really have the skill to portray most cultures that I have no experience with.


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## luckyscars (Mar 27, 2019)

EmmaSohan said:


> What I meant was this. If I make the male in my story British then I don't have him act in a way that is typically/stereotypically British, why make him British?



Isn't that just basic competency? If you don't have a character who 'acts British' arguably you don't have a British character, you have at best a pantomime toff and at worst a meaningless avatar. You could say the same for having a Doctor who doesn't act like a Doctor. It doesn't mean the _choice_ is a problem, it means the _writer _is. 



> And of course you could have a character who was Korean and everyone expected stereotypes that he didn't fit. I was especially questioning making someone British and then going out of one's way to avoid any British stereotypes.



I sort of see what you are saying but I really can't think of any British stereotypes that I think incorporating would make them seem more authentic. Not to a British person anyway. Culture and language, sure, but stereotypes are different. For one thing, stereotypes don't really create authenticity. Usually it's the opposite. What American stereotypes would make a character seem more American?



> So, I wrote a book about a slut, and at the end of the book she was still a slut. How exactly do I determine her race and religion? I started out with the name Mei, because I like that name. Any suggests for race and religion for my serial killer? Faced with those decisions, I decided to make my characters white unless I had some reason not to or I could get away with it. I am trying to be safe and appropriate. (My slut was named May; nothing was said about race of my serial killer. I could have made him British?)



I agree. All I was saying is that your statement in your prior post came across as treating race/ethnic origin/nationality as an elective gimmick which needed to have a defensible purpose in the context of a story to be legitimate (which, in fairness, has been the conventional approach - sleazy Italian? Uptight Brit? Terrorist Muslim? Ghetto Black Man?) and I think that's a bad, or at least old fashioned, approach. It may well not have been what you intended.

One of my stories is set in India. It could quite feasibly have been set anywhere. It certainly wasn't a story _about _India or Indians but I fancied the challenge of using a setting that was relatively alien and was willing to do the research, etc. I think that's fine and part of a good writer's overall mission. Strings to the bow, etc.



> I do not really have the skill to portray most cultures that I have no experience with.



That's probably the heart of the matter, right there.

 It is really difficult to write about places and people that are different. I don't even think it's even a skill issue but more of a psychological one. We are all programmed on some level to see foreign people as different and assume some of that difference does carry assumptions as to how we perceive their behavior, motivations, actions, personalities. 

Nothing insidious about it, either. The PC brigade can piss off on that front. It's not racist to experience a moment of surprise or amusement when learning a particular British person hates tea or Chinese person doesn't like noodles. It only becomes racist when you refuse to change your perspective.


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## gene (Mar 27, 2019)

Do you have a friend of a different race to yours. I do, and if I am writing about a person from a different race, I think of my friends.
Being white and unsure of what I have written about a black person, I ask a black friend to read it for their opinion.


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## moderan (Mar 27, 2019)

Research! Interview people from that culture. This is the internet age. Make friends. Get a new beta reader from another land. I've done this a hundred times. Most countries have web presence. I have a story set between Buda-Pesht and Istanbul. I emailed what amounts to the Chambers of Commerce in both cities and was amazed at the volume of good info and references I was able to get, especially about the people living in the Carpathian mountains. I even introduced myself to Bram Stoker's great-grand-son and quizzed _him_ (he has a Dracula novel out and it was a degree of separation).


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## Dluuni (Mar 27, 2019)

A performative trick from someone who had to pretend to be someone that they were not for most of their life:

Find some situation, object or similar that you would stereotypically link with that group. Have the character interact with that situation. They do not have to act in a stereotypical way, in fact it almost works better if they don't, but having them interact with that thing in some way still creates the link, even when the interaction is to refuse to do the thing or to act opposite of stereotype. For example, when creating a male character, the stereotype of men is to be obsessed with sports. Anytime sports comes up, have your male character comment about or talk about sports. The comment can be "I don't like sports", or "I hate sports, people used to try to make me play them, and I'm not very good at them," and you can even get away with "Honestly, I'd rather watch a fashion show". It doesn't matter, you still fulfilled the link. If it's surprising, another character might ask about it and you can add detail. If something stereotypically very feminine comes up, have the character not interact with it if they don't need to. If you are trying to sell 'male', do not talk about clothes or whatever else. 

Also, in general, again, do the research. I can't help with blackness, and it isn't an ethnicity I see often where I live, so if I want to write a black character, I start calling friends and spending lots of time with them, and more importantly, believing them when they say things that I don't personally experience.

What other identities are you looking at?


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## ironpony (Mar 27, 2019)

I think maybe writers can overthink things, and you can write a character however you want them to behave like, regardless of race, gende, etc.  Am I incorrect on that perhaps?


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## Dluuni (Mar 27, 2019)

You can, but you can also get panned hard for making offensive stereotypical characters, which can and has gotten books pulled off the shelves.


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## ironpony (Mar 27, 2019)

But if you make a person however you want, regardless of race, gender, etc, wouldn't that more likely avoid stereotypes, cause the character is behaving how you want and not as a stereotype?


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## Dluuni (Mar 27, 2019)

Not necessarily.
If someone writes an out trans girl character, then has them go to a mainstream church without incident and there isn't some sort of reflection on just how that came to pass, I'm going to be confused. I don't know ANYONE in that community that doesn't have either personal religious trauma, a church that is under siege for its views in some way, or both. A black character is going to experience a traffic stop much differently than a white character. And so on. Those things have effects on the people in the community, and they will notice if your characters aren't navigating the same world they do, and I assure you, it isn't quite the same world you navigate.


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## ironpony (Mar 28, 2019)

Oh okay, but with your example say that a black character is going to experience a traffic stop than a white character, I think that would largely depend on how the writer chose to write the cop, and the cop's character personality, and background.  So if a character you write interacts with other characters, whether they are black, trans, or whichever, will largely depend on who the other characters they are interact with are, as characters.


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## luckyscars (Mar 28, 2019)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, but with your example say that a black character is going to experience a traffic stop than a white character, I think that would largely depend on how the writer chose to write the cop, and the cop's character personality, and background.  So if a character you write interacts with other characters, whether they are black, trans, or whichever, will largely depend on who the other characters they are interact with are, as characters.



Can I ask, ironpony, why are you so fascinated with law enforcement?


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## ironpony (Mar 28, 2019)

Oh I am not sure.  I like a lot of crime stories and crime thriller fiction.  So I guess since it's crime law enforcement always gets involved cause whenever murders, or kidnappings happen, which are the stories I go for, they are always on it, so I guess that's why, is because they come with the genre.


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## Dluuni (Mar 28, 2019)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, but with your example say that a black character is going to experience a traffic stop than a white character, I think that would largely depend on how the writer chose to write the cop, and the cop's character personality, and background.  So if a character you write interacts with other characters, whether they are black, trans, or whichever, will largely depend on who the other characters they are interact with are, as characters.


It's not a SINGLE police officer, it's an ingrained set of experiences from countless interactions with the world.

The people I have known who are black get pulled over ALL the time. Driving 43 in a 45mph zone, red and blue flashers in the mirror. "Oh, for crying out loud, this is the second time this week." Get the ID and registration off of the pocket on the top of the car, because they probably won't think there's a gun on the sunshade. Probably. Hope they don't search the car anyways. _Even if this officer is nice_. It's an overarching climate. 

That's why the first step is that when you ask questions, you have to *believe the answers*. That means when you get an answer, you don't argue with the answer, or else you are just making enemies. The same rule as with critiques of writing.


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## Sir-KP (Mar 28, 2019)

Dluuni said:


> It's not a SINGLE police officer, it's an ingrained set of experiences from countless interactions with the world.
> 
> The people I have known who are black get pulled over ALL the time. Driving 43 in a 45mph zone, red and blue flashers in the mirror. "Oh, for crying out loud, this is the second time this week." Get the ID and registration off of the pocket on the top of the car, because they probably won't think there's a gun on the sunshade. Probably. Hope they don't search the car anyways. _Even if this officer is nice_. It's an overarching climate.
> 
> That's why the first step is that when you ask questions, you have to *believe the answers*. That means when you get an answer, you don't argue with the answer, or else you are just making enemies. The same rule as with critiques of writing.



Oh okay, but what if the flasher is only red, not red and blue?


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## ironpony (Mar 28, 2019)

Dluuni said:


> It's not a SINGLE police officer, it's an ingrained set of experiences from countless interactions with the world.
> 
> The people I have known who are black get pulled over ALL the time. Driving 43 in a 45mph zone, red and blue flashers in the mirror. "Oh, for crying out loud, this is the second time this week." Get the ID and registration off of the pocket on the top of the car, because they probably won't think there's a gun on the sunshade. Probably. Hope they don't search the car anyways. _Even if this officer is nice_. It's an overarching climate.
> 
> That's why the first step is that when you ask questions, you have to *believe the answers*. That means when you get an answer, you don't argue with the answer, or else you are just making enemies. The same rule as with critiques of writing.



Oh I seem, that is unfortunate...

But you could write a whole story with a black character for example, who goes from location to location as the plot requires, presumably never pulled over in between, if the pull over doesn't have anything to do for the plot, couldn't you?


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## moderan (Mar 28, 2019)

ironpony said:


> Oh I see, that is unfortunate...
> 
> But you could write a whole story with a black character for example, who goes from location to location as the plot requires, presumably never pulled over in between, if the pull over doesn't have anything to do for the plot, couldn't you?


It isn't about getting pulled over. Dluuni is talking about _white privilege_, and especially the tendency of law enforcement to_ err on the side of the people who have money. _I'm old and white. The cops don't investigate the skunky smells that emanate from my house, nor do they bother with the plants I have growing in my front yard, despite the length of my hair...because that paradigm shifted long ago.
But if I was brown, I might well be deported. If I was black, I might be jailed. Selective enforcement along racial/class lines is a well-proven hypothesis. But...if I were denser than the average dwarf star, I might not understand the argument. I assume this is operative. God DAMN.


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## ironpony (Mar 28, 2019)

Oh okay, well if a character is non-white, then perhaps it's best to write some white-privilege around that character?  I don't really come up with the races of my characters, and I just leave it up to the reader to decide so far, unless race has a baring on the story, but is that bad of me?


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## moderan (Mar 28, 2019)

...


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## ironpony (Mar 28, 2019)

Oh, just wondering in response to OP.  That would be my advice to the OP is race of the character is not important unless it plays a part in the story.  But if the race does, I would just write the character to behave however you want, and not worry about any possible stereotyping.


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## Ralph Rotten (Mar 28, 2019)

In tangible terms, you write a person of African descent just like any other character. They could be smart, clever, dumb, gang banger, or a PHD.
As I mentioned previously, they are no different than anyone else, but they are painfully aware that they are PERCEIVED as being different.

So really to write a black character, you are writing a white character, but with occasional references to hair, skin tone, or cultural differences.
When you were a child your mother sang you lullabies. But a American of African descent may have been sung Billie Holiday as a child (Trevor Noah).
They might have memories of going to mostly black schools...or of being the only black person in their whole school. (I was the only brown person in my school for a few years there.)
They might be leery of hitting on white women because not all are up for a relationship with a black guy. _It's still a line a lotta people feel uncomfortable about crossing_.
They may be sensitive to changes in conversation when they enter the room.
They may even be irritated by many of their own. Irritated at fellow blacks who make them look like clowns on the news every day. I have known a few.


Ever listen to the NPR radio show 1A?
I'd been listening to his show for 6 months before I saw a picture of him.
I thought he was a skinny white dude.
He doesn't *sound *gay.


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## moderan (Mar 28, 2019)

The main character in one of my serials is a 'person of color'. I've never directly referred to the color of his skin. Have never had a reason to, and I doubt any reader knows. He's going to star in my next novel, in which the paramedics in London sit Jimi Hendrix up in the ambulance so he can puke all over himself and not choke on it, setting the chain of events into motion even though Mr Hendrix isn't a character in the narrative.
The main character (Ben Bedelia) in the partial short story in the workshop is a person of color. That'll be revealed when he meets the houngon in part two but it won't be obvious until then.
I was a minority white person at two high schools. One of them had forced busing.
I listen to NPR every morning.


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## Ralph Rotten (Mar 28, 2019)

I was raised a redneck.
In the Latino community I am what is referred to as *Taco Bell*.


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## luckyscars (Mar 28, 2019)

moderan said:


> I've never directly referred to the color of his skin. Have never had a reason to, and I doubt any reader knows.



This raises an interesting (or maybe not) point though: Even if you don't specify race, can it still lead to some degree of 'de facto' whiteness? Particularly in a case where its a white author writing for a majority white audience in a book that lacks any explciit indicators to the contrary?

Take S King. A white author who sets his stories mostly in white places and whose readership is, at least seemingly, white majority. 

King seldom mentions the race of his characters, as far as I know. Yet when I read a line from SK describing a scene from the point of view of 'an old woman' I automatically assume the character in question is white _unless suggested otherwise_. I assume that because it's Stephen King. Additionally, I know on the rare occasions he does mention race it's usually because it fits the plot (John Coffey, Hallorann from The Shining, etc) in which case the 'blackness' is often so strongly written it's almost a caricature. 

OTOH, if it was a Toni Morrison novel, I would probably assume the exact opposite. If it was an author I knew nothing about in a racially-neutral place, I would probably assume the character's race was my own. So effectively the practice of not mentioning race doesn't actually mean the book becomes racially ambiguous.

I need a reference point for how characters _look_ and that reference point is going to be either the writer, myself, or a third-party if there is clearly a geographical (regardless of the writer or my race, if a story is set in Birmingham Alabama I am going to assume it's a black person unless indicated otherwise) or some other semantic link (if the book is about an Islamic Terrorist, I am going to picture the Islamic Terrorist as some Bin Laden-esque fellow).

Which makes me think maybe achieving real diversity requires a little more than simply not specifying. That is, if one cares about the actual perception of the reader. I can not specify the race in my book, tell myself (and anybody who brings it up) that I don't mention it because it's not important, but that doesn't actually make a difference to representation or help answer the charge of 'man these books are all about _white people_'.


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## Sir-KP (Mar 28, 2019)

ironpony said:


> Oh I seem, that is unfortunate...
> 
> But you could write a whole story with a black character for example, who goes from location to location as the plot requires, presumably never pulled over in between, if the pull over doesn't have anything to do for the plot, couldn't you?



Yes, you could. But best not because you're trying so hard to avoid stereotype. Gotta have some reasons first.

For example, I live in capital city. In my country, a black man could drive a Rolls Royce here and he wouldn't get pulled over. 

But say there are 4 skinny black men, all look high, wearing washed out t-shirt and shorts, driving an old corroded sedan with exhaust releasing a cloud of lead, MOST LIKELY will be pulled over by my local police. Not because they're black, but rather because of the garbage can they are dangerously driving. They might also go into searching procedure afterwards because they're high. *These are reasons. 

*Now if your story of driving-blackman is set in the US of A and he's driving across some rural areas, which I (as a foreigner) take it that there are still racists there, then he might get pulled over by the racist sheriff and possibly get into trouble. It would be stereotype, but there's reason behind.



ironpony said:


> Oh okay, well if a character is non-white, then perhaps it's best to write some white-privilege around that character?



Why tho...



ironpony said:


> I don't really come up with the races of my characters, and I just leave it up to the reader to decide so far, unless race has a baring on the story, but is that bad of me?



I would say yes. Because your job is to deliver a story to readers.


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## Squalid Glass (Mar 28, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> This raises an interesting (or maybe not) point though: Even if you don't specify race, can it still lead to some degree of 'de facto' whiteness? Particularly in a case where its a white author writing for a majority white audience in a book that lacks any explciit indicators to the contrary?
> 
> Take S King. A white author who sets his stories mostly in white places and whose readership is, at least seemingly, white majority.
> 
> ...



I think the way you approach it is probably how most do. As a writer, you have two options: you can identify your characters' race explicitly and/or through context clues OR you can write race-neutral and allow the reader to decide. If you choose the latter, you have to be careful, though. J.K. Rowling has found herself in some hot water for trying to retroactively go back and diversify characters that her books don't really allude to being diverse. 

I tend to think the former is the better approach so long as you know what you're doing when writing a diverse character. I suppose if you don't know how to or you are uncomfortable writing a diverse character, then don't do it.


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## luckyscars (Mar 28, 2019)

Squalid Glass said:


> I think the way you approach it is probably how most do. As a writer, you have two options: you can identify your characters' race explicitly and/or through context clues OR you can write race-neutral and allow the reader to decide. If you choose the latter, you have to be careful, though. J.K. Rowling has found herself in some hot water for trying to retroactively go back and diversify characters that her books don't really allude to being diverse.
> 
> I tend to think the former is the better approach so long as you know what you're doing when writing a diverse character. I suppose if you don't know how to or you are uncomfortable writing a diverse character, then don't do it.



Part of the problem is there is a hell of a lot of absurdity that comes in, to the point it's pretty much all just off-putting. 

As a white, male writer I feel a lot of this boils down to two choices:

- Make all my work viewed through a 'white male' lens. One might argue this is Stephen King, actually most writers. In which case *some people* would then accuse me of being, if not racist, than certainly not part of the promotion of diversity. 'Oscars So White' etc.

- Try to be 'diverse': I want to do this. I don't want to just write white characters, either explicitly or otherwise. But making diverse characters runs the inherent risk of accusations of appropriation, mishandling of POC issues, or even racism if I don't get it right. 

So, how to get it right? 

I know the easy answer is going to be 'make sure you write diversity well' but we all know it ain't that easy. For one thing, it's really _not _that easy to clearly indicate race without actually mentioning race...and mentioning any descriptive feature of a character in a way that doesn't stick out tends to require a context, which means I now have to create that context. Which, if I'm not super careful, will come across as contrived.

For instance, most of the time, I can't just _say_ "Janet was a black woman". It reads weird and its lazy. I wouldn't write 'Bill is a white man' so just throwing it out there is bad writing, and arguably racist in itself. So, I have to imply her blackness in an organic, not-making-it-a-feature way through the narrative, which only works if I can craft an opportunity - "Janet looked in the mirror and adjusted her weave' or something along those lines.

So now, suddenly, I am having to have Janet _stand in front of a mirror_ or do something else that allows me the opportunity to insert what is, probably, not anything to do with the story. I am having to push for the indicator, and I need to do it quickly (because this story isn't about Janet being a black woman), and clearly...

...which NOW means I run the risk of the dreaded stereotypes! Because not all black women do wear weaves, and some will be offended (quite reasonably, BTW) that I am resorting to such lazy cliches. And I accept that. I shouldn't be doing that. _But what else can I do?_ Every trait I can think of that clearly indicates 'blackness' in a concise fashion is either a stereotype or bordering on one and I can't write a mini-essay on 'the true nature of Janet" just to get the reader to see who she is. Everybody who reads my work who knows I am a White Guy is not going to _assume_ a non-white character if I don't make it clear. So I have to clearly indicate something while simultaneously not making it a big issue.

This isn't always an issue. Sometimes an opportunity presents itself to just say it, and I am comfortable with it. But not always. It would be the same, by the way, if I needed to clearly indicate my character was white. It's not a unique issue to writing any race. The only difference is I generally don't have to worry about telling my readers my characters are white, _because the privilege of white status means characters by white authors inherit that status automatically_. Same with JK Rowling.


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## moderan (Mar 28, 2019)

Squalid Glass said:


> <snip>...I suppose if you don't know how to or you are uncomfortable writing a diverse character, then don't do it.


It does take practice...do it, but don't put it out there unless you can stand behind it.


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## ironpony (Mar 29, 2019)

Sir-KP said:


> Why tho...



Oh I was just responding to moderan's post, in which he says the Dluuni was talking about white privilege.  I was just saying if acknowledging white privilege is important in a story, than it's important...


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## Phil Istine (Mar 29, 2019)

Reading this thread I'm reminded of a guy I once knew.  He was of Pakistani origination as far as biological parentage went, but was adopted by white English middle-class people at very early age.  He was given a very English first name and inherited a very English last name. His speech is closer to Queen's English than mine as I'm working class.
I can think of an occasion when he did use this to his advantage.  He got into some debt and the debt collectors called at his door looking for <Very English Name>, but he mimicked a soft Pakistani accent and said he had only recently moved in and the person they were seeking must have moved on.
If I were to write this real-life character into a story, he would be unbelievable.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 29, 2019)

> If I were to write this real-life character into a story, he would be unbelievable.



Not really, Phil, I know a few people like this, with Asian parentage, but grew up somewhere like Tooting, of African parentage but went to school in Harrow and so on. The basic error seems to me to be trying to write according to stereotypes, everybody is different, so to make a believable character you need to write an individual, the superficial racial characteristics they share with a few million others might be worth a mention describing them at the start, but they are not going to make a decent story. Don't write about their race, write about their individuality.


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## Dluuni (Mar 29, 2019)

Characters are all unique and can be any number of different ways. The world in which they exist can look different depending on how people perceive them based on their ethnicity, gender, et cetera, however. Those are the bits that need the research, since those affect the characterization.


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## Squalid Glass (Mar 29, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> Part of the problem is there is a hell of a lot of absurdity that comes in, to the point it's pretty much all just off-putting.
> 
> As a white, male writer I feel a lot of this boils down to two choices:
> 
> ...



As someone who considers himself an SJW WITH RESERVATIONS ABOUT BEING AN SJW, I know exactly what you mean here. You're damned if you do, damned if you don't. And you're always at risk of getting it wrong in somebody's eyes.

I think the solution here is to do your research and employ diverse beta readers. Those are really the only strategies I think can help authenticate a character without pandering and/or offending and/or getting it wrong.


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## luckyscars (Mar 29, 2019)

Squalid Glass said:


> I think the solution here is to do your research and employ diverse beta readers. Those are really the only strategies I think can help authenticate a character without pandering and/or offending and/or getting it wrong.



What kind of research do you think would help to accurately and clearly indicate the presence of a black character in a story written by a white writer that isn’t an overtly “black” narrative and isn’t built on stereotypes or cliches?


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## moderan (Mar 29, 2019)

Perhaps actually talking to some black people.


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## Squalid Glass (Mar 29, 2019)

Yeah, pretty much. Also reading black writers. Fiction and non fiction.


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## Tettsuo (Mar 29, 2019)

As an American black guy, it's the not the color of the skin but the environment the person is growing up in that determines how they behave. Color is an added flavoring to the mix that is more likely to effect people around the person of color more than the person themselves.

If you're poor, you'll have characteristics that are more associated with poor people. In fact, poor people of all colors have more in common than rich people even if they're of the same color. So, if you're writing a black guy who grew up in Oregon suburbs, they'll have way more in common with the people around them than some random black guy from Brooklyn. The only commonality the two would share is how OTHERS treat and look at them.


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## Squalid Glass (Mar 29, 2019)

Right. That's where a writer must consider the intersectionality of their character. Not only race, class, and environment, but sexual orientation, gender, and age as well. There's always a lot to consider in characterization.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 29, 2019)

I am wondering why you want to create a black character, what significance it has? If it is actually important to the story I would expect the reasons it is important would make it clear they were black. 
Your title got me at first, I was thinking a story about a black person posing as a white one 

A short, true, story. I was calling on a friend who was out and met someone else on the doorstep. We chatted for a while and when I saw my friend later I told him various things about him, but he couldn't place him. Next time I saw him he said "You could have told me he was Indian". I hadn't noticed.


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## Dluuni (Mar 29, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> What kind of research do you think would help to accurately and clearly indicate the presence of a black character in a story written by a white writer that isn’t an overtly “black” narrative and isn’t built on stereotypes or cliches?


Talk to black people and ask for some things that people around them do often that others them. Then have unnamed people do things like that and react from there. You aren't having the character do anything stereotypical; you're having the world do something stereotypical.


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## luckyscars (Mar 30, 2019)

Tettsuo said:


> If you're poor, you'll have characteristics that are more associated with poor people. In fact, poor people of all colors have more in common than rich people even if they're of the same color. So, if you're writing a black guy who grew up in Oregon suburbs, they'll have way more in common with the people around them than some random black guy from Brooklyn. The only commonality the two would share is how OTHERS treat and look at them.



^ This is good advice, if the OP is still listening. 

It seems to me, speaking as a white person who knows nothing, that beyond superficiality and stereotypes, when usually when people talk about 'the African American experience' they're _really _talking about 'What it means to come from a group that is impoverished and/or exploited'. Almost all Black History, at least in the US, links to some kind of social or economic struggle. 

I know not all black people by any means are poor or downtrodden and it's incredibly ignorant when people act that way. But it is also true that rich black people probably have more in common with rich white people in terms of lived _experience_. Same deal for poor black and poor whites. 

So I guess if one wants to 'write about a black girl' first thing to do would be establish who this black girl is. If she's poor then so long as you make that sufficiently clear and incorporate the themes that plague poor communities and probably set the story in a typical 'poor black neighborhood', most people will find that portrayal to seem authentic, even without any explicit mentioning of race. 

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned much in this is names. It's kind of basic and obvious but I sometimes find all I need to do to designate an ethnic background to a character is name them appropriately. I mean, if your character's name is a common Jewish name and perhaps you drop in a couple of references to common Jewish identity (prayer patterns, food, etc) while avoiding anything inaccurate or stereotypical, you have a Jewish character. Beyond that all you need to make the character authentic is to write them as a human being.


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## Chris Stevenson (Mar 30, 2019)

I agree that you can indicate a POC by a subtle suggestion, as mentioned above. I have run into this too and it worries me because I do not want to stereotype and yet I do not want to pander.  I simply write about a person, a human being. The only color I really see is red, and red is the color of our blood, where the soul resides. I can only hope I do my POC characters justice and portray them in a realistic fashion.


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## JustRob (Mar 30, 2019)

My solitary novel was set mainly in a typical British office, a place where race is not a significant factor, or at least shouldn't be. I had conceived one of my characters as a person of mixed race, but there was never any specific need nor opportunity to reveal this, so it appeared very much that all of my characters were typical English Brits. Only in a later projected novel did I give a clue about her being a POC in passing, solely because the opportunity arose. As I always had a clear idea of her appearance I wrote consistently about her in the original novel and maybe a reader might have picked up on the sparse clues and filled in the gaps that I left in her description, but it had so little significance to the story that it didn't matter if they made assumptions with which they felt comfortable. There are two ways that we can write, either laying out every detail very clearly so that the reader can see everything exactly as we do, or else simply providing sufficient detail to tell the story, thus letting the reader build their own images to their own satisfaction. Personally I prefer to allow the reader to embellish my writing in their own mind as they want. 

In visual media ethnic diversity, or the lack of it, is self-evident, so there is a tacit obligation to provide it nowadays, but on the written page it paradoxically can be present even when it is not explicitly mentioned. In fact my view is that not mentioning it demonstrates its irrelevance in some societies just as well as explicitly doing so. During my working life in an office I worked for a while for a team leader who was a five foot nothing much female POC and nobody ever showed any concern about her ethnicity, size or gender. In fact the only slight concern that some of us had was that she was a contractor on a short term contract while we were long term permanent employees working under her, but then in our business contractors effectively provided the flexibility in the size of the workforce that gave us permanent staff security, so even that was trivial as she was good at her job. I wrote my novel on the basis of my own experience, that such matters were irrelevant and unmentioned within such a setting, but I have no doubt that some readers may have assumed that there was no ethnic diversity in it and maybe even been critical of its assumed absence. 

It would have been nonsensical for me to have written that my character was black but that it was irrelevant to the story, just to meet some criterion relevant only to another medium. Colour is a visual phenomenon and text isn't. What matters to me is just the grey matter within a person's head.


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## EmmaSohan (Mar 30, 2019)

One book was placed in Cleveland, and it seemed obvious the author did not know Cleveland. More research or carefulness would have helped, but the reality is that it's really hard to write about things you don't know about. Cities, occupations, gender, disabilities, and whatever you call being black in America.

A book I was reading this week is placed in Seattle, and I was first struck by a basic error anyone in Seattle wouldn't make, then just at the vagueness. But the author has lived in Seattle for over ten years. So in a way people don't necessarily know their own lives. If you ask people what a dog looks like, you tend to get stereotypes. If you ask me what life is like where I live, there are a lot of things I will forget to mention and yet I will notice when you get them wrong in your book.


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## ironpony (Mar 30, 2019)

I was curious, what was the error in Seattle and Cleveland that were made by the authors?


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## Ralph Rotten (Mar 30, 2019)

Tettsuo said:


> As an American black guy, it's the not the color of the skin but the environment the person is growing up in that determines how they behave. Color is an added flavoring to the mix that is more likely to effect people around the person of color more than the person themselves.
> 
> If you're poor, you'll have characteristics that are more associated with poor people. In fact, poor people of all colors have more in common than rich people even if they're of the same color. So, if you're writing a black guy who grew up in Oregon suburbs, they'll have way more in common with the people around them than some random black guy from Brooklyn. The only commonality the two would share is how OTHERS treat and look at them.





You totally nailed it!

People of color are no different than anyone else you meet, they just have more melanin than Caucasians.
I'm mocha, and my wife is as white as a woman can possibly get.
But we connect because we come from the same culture, listened to the same music, watched the same TV, saw the same movies, and both grew up in similar neighborhoods.
I do not think of myself as being of Latin descent, or being Mexican, or Apache. I just consider myself a regular old American.

*But I am aware of how others often perceive me as being different, simply because I look different*.
Being black or brown does not define who you are, _but it may tint how others initially perceive you_.


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## EmmaSohan (Mar 30, 2019)

ironpony said:


> I was curious, what was the error in Seattle and Cleveland that were made by the authors?



I think I forgot to say, my post was about trying to write about something you aren't quite familiar with.

The author talked about flying from Kennedy to the Cleveland airport. So, first name familiarity with the New York airport and not the Cleveland airport. It's easy to look up the official name of an airport; not as easy to know what it's called. She had to wait in line at the motel while the owner talked about the Bulls with a customer. (Chicago Bulls, Cleveland Cavaliers, pretty sure they're called the Cavs.)  A bus route didn't have any transfers and seemed unlikely to me.

Seattle. Day 1 of the story, her parents are at Bumbershoot. Day 2 is Monday, the first day of school. Bumbershoot includes labor day. They climbed Queen Anne Hill and there was no description of the view. When I thought about it, there seemed to be a vagueness. Like where did they park? Or, elsewhere, jumping off a dock into Lake Washington from a dock. Where?

But if you ask people do describe something, like a dog, they mostly do stereotypes. So there is a problem with trusting other people's reports.


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## ironpony (Mar 31, 2019)

Oh okay, I see.


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## Bardling (Apr 2, 2019)

I like taking a trope or stereotype and reversing it.  A current story idea I have been tooling around with is an Litrpg idea where the modern world and an underlying fantasy influenced realm collide.  The Otherworld Gate on the West Coast opened in Berkeley.  I needed the powers that be to be based on the college faculty - Hard sciences, soft sciences, athletics, etc.  I also thought playing against the trope of black people being uneducated would be fun, so one of the powerbases there was established by a character based on Neil deGrasse Tyson, and it is very science oriented.  You don't see much of the character because the Gates opened three generation ago, but his granddaughter would have been an important character.  And her first language would have been Ebonics - or rather, African American Vernacular English, a dialect common to most African Americans.  That would probably have been the most obvious marker of her race.  I tend to not describe my characters physical features much, and I would rather code her language as black then shove her appearance in my readers face constantly anyways.


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## Pallandozi (Aug 22, 2020)

nannaiduna said:


> WITHOUT any cliché traits involved.
> 
> I want POC in my novelwithout giving off a vibe that I'm forcing these characters in to look like I care about representation.



There are lots of young female black bloggers and youtubers.

Have a listen, and see if you can combine some of them to fit a role in your story that is already needed.

https://blog.feedspot.com/black_female_youtube_channels/

Where is your story set?   Here, for example, is someone from Britain:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91H8w58M9xc


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## EternalGreen (Aug 24, 2020)

Representation can only be done by the group being represented itself.


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## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord (Aug 25, 2020)

EternalGreen said:


> Representation can only be done by the group being represented itself.



Hmmm I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean that  authors can't/shouldn't write outside their own demographics? Or do you mean that it's acceptable but isn't 'true' representation? Either statement seems odd, given that with the exception of memoir, authors are _always_ writing outside their own experience to at least some extent...


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## luckyscars (Aug 25, 2020)

EternalGreen said:


> Representation can only be done by the group being represented itself.





ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord said:


> Hmmm I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean that authors can't/shouldn't write outside their own demographics? Or do you mean that it's acceptable but isn't 'true' representation? Either statement seems odd, given that with the exception of memoir, authors are _always_ writing outside their own experience to at least some extent...



This is the kind of thing that ten writers will always have ten different views of. I don't disagree with either of these quoted points. I would, though, disagree with the premise that caused them.

_What is representation? _It's kind of a meaningless word in the subject of writing fiction, I think. Representation in its literal form usually requires some form of consent by the constituency being represented: _I represented my company at the convention. My congressman represents me in Washington, _etc.  

Since it's impossible to derive any sort of consent from a demographic group -- any group -- the concept of representation through a character, or a cast of characters, is pretty much a non-starter. Unless you are the head of the NAACP or something, you really can't say you are 'qualified' to speak for African Americans as a group (and even then, that's extremely contentious), so where is the authority to speak of representation? There simply isn't any. 

So, the correct term it seems to me is not 'representation' but 'characterization': _Can authors characterize a demographic group that isn't their own? _

As Arrow says, that's pretty difficult to speak about in absolute terms because almost all of us do. All fiction consists of deception, that's why it is fiction. The important thing is to overwhelm the 'lies' with an overarching truth. I am a straight man and at least half of the time my main characters are women. The fact I don't belong to that demographic group and never will...is an inherent disadvantage, but I see it as being a necessary hurdle to write the stories I want to write. I don't pretend to be some kind of authority on the subject, but I did grow up with several sisters, am married to a woman, and have a daughter. Additionally to that, I have put in a lot of work to understanding better: Reading stories written by women about women, stuff like that. 

Ultimately, we are all outsiders to anybody who isn't actually us, right? Of course we are, so this is effectively a question of nuance, of figuring out the limits to what we individually are capable of. This is about avoiding the sort of Dunning-Kreuger effect that makes us think we are able to write about _anything we want _while still ensuring we are comfortable and confident with writing _everything we need. _Lee Messer speaks of his own experience 'dating a lot of black girls/women in his life'. I might totally disagree with his interpretation of black women, and I do, but I cannot disagree that it is his interpretation and he has a right to have it. The judge, jury and executioner is going to be his readers. Nobody else.

Writing stories that incorporate BIPOC/LGBTQ+ themes is very vogue right now, to the point doing it successfully is probably a surefire way to sell. That's no big secret. 

The operative phrase is 'successfully'. It's not something that wanting it to happen is enough. Becoming well-versed in the experience of 'the other' to the point you can capture 'them' authentically...is incredibly difficult, and rest assured the editor's knives will be out for any fuck up whatsoever. 

So, I think on balance that straying into the world of Demographic Group X for no other reason than "I want representation" is a bit of a fool's errand. I am NOT saying you can't write about other groups -- you absolutely can -- and I commend any writer who values the goal. But, recognizing the importance of a goal is not the same as actually scoring it. Writing about an experience you don't know jack shit about for no reason other than checking a box on 'diversity' strikes as a cynical and foolish move. Borderline unethical.

We talk all the time on this forum about the importance of being free to write whatever you want...and that's important. But, equally important, is to know your limits. You can't just wing it. You can't actually just make shit up. Readers aren't stupid -- you need to make sure your truth doesn't drown in the lie.


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## Olly Buckle (Aug 25, 2020)

I must have posted here sometime, it keeps popping up in my settings, but looking through there I am a bit blown away by the gross assumptions. Black women exist in numbers across Africa, Europe and North America, and I bet there are a fair few dotted across the rest of the world. They will have hugely different cultural and social experiences, defining them by colour and assuming other common denominators is simple racism, there will be as much variation between them as between two white men like Vince with the violent streak and tattoos from a sink estate in South London  and Bertrand Russell, more, they may not even speak the same language. Saying things like 'I know black women, I have been out with lots of them.' is rubbish, you only know the ones you knew. I was married to a Japanese woman, but of Japanese women generally I know next to nothing, let alone Oriental women. On the other hand I do know quite a bit about people, and there seem to be similarities across the board.

The other thing I would point out is the OP is from March 1919 and the only post the member has made, You appear to be talking among yourselves to no great purpose


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## luckyscars (Aug 25, 2020)

Olly Buckle said:


> The other thing I would point out is the OP is from March 1919 and the only post the member has made



That long ago, they're probably dead by now.


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## BornForBurning (Aug 25, 2020)

> The other thing I would point out is the OP is from March 1919 and the only post the member has made, You appear to be talking among yourselves to no great purpose


This is Ollie's polite way of saying please, _please _stop resurrecting year-old threads.


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## Terry D (Aug 25, 2020)

Start with at least one black parent, add wine and music, wait nine months.


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## Gumby (Aug 25, 2020)

I would add one thing here.

 The original post asks how to create/write a black girl character as a white girl. I don't think that even makes sense. Why would you? The mind boggles...


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