# Brexit. Discussion Only.



## bazz cargo

Why?


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## PiP

Because leavers have an island mentality?


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## JustRob

We weren't asked whether we wanted to join the EU, so when we were asked whether we wanted to leave we just set the record straight, that so far as we were concerned we never joined. The EU is a very different thing from the old Common Market.

It is the same mentality as that of Southerners in the USA who deny that they lost the civil war there because there never was one. There was a "war of northern aggression" but that just petered out apparently. In fact even the northerners seemed unsure whether they were at war or not in the end. During a period when they were claiming that the southerners were just criminals within a country that wasn't at war they were also claiming the right to impound and search British ships under the terms of war. The British government denied them this right on the grounds that they couldn't identify anyone that they were at war with if the southerners were to be regarded just as criminals. In the House of Lords the British government declared that they would continue to recognise the southerners' independent rights until the northerners admitted that they were no longer at war with anyone and the country was united. The northerners also declared that they would pursue southern criminals escaping across the border into British territory in Canada until the British government pointed out that that would itself constitute an act of war against Britain.

It doesn't make sense to make a decision without asking someone's opinion and then later ask them what you should do because you did that. The question is not why we want to leave the EU but whether we actually ever wanted to join it. At least, that is how some of us regarded that referendum.


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## Guard Dog

Rob, who have you been talking to from the southern U.S.?

I was born and raised here, and I don't know anybody who'll claim there was no war, or that the south didn't lose.

Hell, Lee surrendered. That means somebody lost. Since Lee was a General... well, must'a been a war, 'cause it sure as hell wasn't a football game. :lol:


G.D.


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## Kevin

PiP said:


> Because leavers have an island mentality?


but what's their actual complaint?


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## Phil Istine

JustRob said:


> We weren't asked whether we wanted to join the EU, so when we were asked whether we wanted to leave we just set the record straight, that so far as we were concerned we never joined. The EU is a very different thing from the old Common Market.



*WARNING: Contains a little moderately offensive language.
*
I voted to remain in the EU.

Casting my mind back to 1975 now so memory may be unreliable.

I believe that Ted Heath took us into the EEC (Common Market) in 1973 (or 74) which was then a trading bloc of six other nations.  He did this without a referendum, but the next (Labour) government did call a referendum in 1975 to ask the people if they wished to continue with it.

Apparently, ever-closer political union was an eventual goal, even back then, and there is paperwork that backs this up.  However, it wasn't highlighted and indeed, there may well have been efforts to suppress such information.  This was far easier to do in a pre-internet era.

When taking into account the UK's economic problems in the early/mid-70s, it's not surprising that a 'safety in numbers' attitude was prevalent, and the electorate voted to stay in the EEC by some margin.  This was also helped by the consequences of oil quadrupling in price in a very short time.  There were severe, albeit temporary, supply problems and application forms appeared to apply for petrol rations, though the problems eased a little and ration books were never issued.

Anyway, although I voted Remain, I do concede that the electorate may have felt under pressure at the time of the 1975 referendum, and that only those who made a point of studying such things would have been aware that far closer political union was an eventual goal.

Having written that, if there were to be a second referendum, I suspect that it would have been better to have it far sooner than 2016 - perhaps around 1990, shortly before that debacle with the ERM (exchange rate mechanism).  The issues should have been laid out transparently, no convenient suppressing or highlighting, with honesty and integrity.  And here is where we have a problem with the UK political system.  Generally, politicians are so used to cheating, lying, and evading questions, most of them would likely have nervous breakdowns if they did something radical like telling the truth more than once per day.  No system is perfect, but it would have been healthier to adopt a Scandinavian style of discussion about such important changes.  But we are so used to class warfare, confrontation, and downright bloody-mindedness, having a reasonable discussion between rulers and citizens is practically alien.  It's not in our genes.  The roots of this possibly lie in the years of our Industrial Revolution when Britain was possibly the richest economy in the world and people shat in wooden buckets.  It's why we hoot with derision when someone talks about 'trickle-down economics'.  To a Brit that means 'being pissed on from a great height.

I digress.  I seem to have outJustRob'd JustRob 

In the UK we have a 'first past the post' voting system.  This means that if you live in an area where your political view is greatly in the minority, your vote counts for nothing. Ever.  With referenda, this is not the case.  For many people, this was the first time in their lives that their vote would count.  And boy, were they going to stick it up the ruling class who preside over a system that they believe has failed them.  The main flaw in that logic is that political systems always make sure that the ones who are squeezed hardest are those at the bottom of the pile.

There is no problem that capitalism cannot resolve - by shitting on the working class.

I believe that the vote to leave the EU was a symptom of widespread mistrust that goes back generations and is endemic.  It's not a recent quirk.

Although I voted to remain, I understand why leave won by a narrow majority.  There are issues about the EU that I dislike too, but I believe we are better off in than out.  I suppose I'm what you might call a soft Remainer.  I see myself as an internationalist, but despise much of what unchecked capitalism seems to stand for.

I hope I haven't breached the 'no debating' ethos of this site.  I am merely stating where I am with this.  I'm not trying to persuade others of the rightness of my perceptions.


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## bdcharles

Why what, sorry? Why talk about it? Why leave? You know, to me, the actual concept of leaving the EU is not without merit. If it costs money to stay in there, then there's a potential savings to at least be costed out. If we have some super whizz bang new innovations that the EU would stifle, then OK. The EU is far from flawless. But my issue is that none of this was put out there as the reason for leaving. I have no faith that the Leave movement have any of this as their incentives, preferring scare tactics and out-and-out fabrications before cashing in on the ensuing uncertainty. But really, none of this should have been put to a referendum. By and large people are simply not well-enough informed or sufficiently responsible (remember Boaty McBoatface?) to make a decision of this magnitude. Now we have a future driven by people that took in the rhetoric but who in far too many instances are not going to have to actually live through it, leaving that particular joy to the people that never wanted it (source). Rather cynically, it was only put as a referendum item so David Cameron could keep his job, which he bailed on when that backfired (he was a Remainer). I know of very few businesses that support it so I cannot see any economic benefit. The Queen should step in at this point or maybe we should divide the country down the middle and yes I'm totally going to write a story about that OMG plot bunnies plot bunnies!!!


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## Phil Istine

bdcharles said:


> Why what, sorry? Why talk about it? Why leave? You know, to me, the actual concept of leaving the EU is not without merit. If it costs money to stay in there, then there's a potential savings to at least be costed out. If we have some super whizz bang new innovations that the EU would stifle, then OK. The EU is far from flawless. But my issue is that none of this was put out there as the reason for leaving. I have no faith that the Leave movement have any of this as their incentives, preferring scare tactics and out-and-out fabrications before cashing in on the ensuing uncertainty. But really, none of this should have been put to a referendum. By and large people are simply not well-enough informed or sufficiently responsible (remember Boaty McBoatface?) to make a decision of this magnitude. Now we have a future driven by people that took in the rhetoric but who in far too many instances are not going to have to actually live through it, leaving that particular joy to the people that never wanted it (source). Rather cynically, it was only put as a referendum item so David Cameron could keep his job, which he bailed on when that backfired (he was a Remainer). I know of very few businesses that support it so I cannot see any economic benefit. The Queen should step in at this point or maybe we should divide the country down the middle and yes I'm totally going to write a story about that OMG plot bunnies plot bunnies!!!



I actually wrote a very tiny piece about a 50-metre wide tract of land from Scotland to London that should be known as the Stanstead corridor (after Danzig).  To avoid the east of the country being cut off, small international areas could be set aside near the A1 where unicorns can graze in peace, a sort of DMZ


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## bazz cargo

@ Pip. While I will concede the merit of your point, I see the situation as a lot more complex. Leavers are seriously faction riddled, hence the ugly scenes in parliament.

@ JustRob. I can see how the injustice of having your life arranged without consulting you is causing a level of frustration that requires some kind of action,  I just don't understand why anyone would vote to wreck their own lives and the lives of countless others. 

@ Guard Dog. I can understand your reluctance to let history be revised to support a dodgy deal. I wish more people would keep pointing out that facts are not malleable. 

@ Kevin. They don't have a complaint, just an emotional response to what is akin to being groomed by some unbelievably barefaced opportunists. 

@ Phil istine. Th UK has by accident ended up with the sweetest deal imaginable, it wasn't what we voted for or what we expected but it has made us one of the top six countries in the world and now we are going to deliberately chuck our good fortune away and slide down the league. 

@ bdcharles. The EU is far from perfect, so either we leave it or try to fix what we can. Leaving is mad, we voted Nigel Farage in as our fixer. You couldn't make this up.


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## Guard Dog

bazz cargo said:


> @ Guard Dog. I can understand your reluctance to let history be revised to support a dodgy deal. I wish more people would keep pointing out that facts are not malleable.



Eh.. when you've walked through as many civil war battlefields, graveyards, and museums as I have, and seen so many dangerous items and tombstones from that period... ya kind'a have to believe that something happened that was a fair bit more than just a harsh disagreement or a game. *shrug*

There's also a few letters still laying around that point out the flaw in some people's thinking as to the exact cause or reason for it as well.

...but that's a whole 'nother thread.

The bottom line is that politics has the habit of twisting facts around to suit some people's opinions and goals.



G.D.


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## JustRob

Guard Dog said:


> Rob, who have you been talking to from the southern U.S.?
> 
> I was born and raised here, and I don't know anybody who'll claim there was no war, or that the south didn't lose.
> 
> Hell, Lee surrendered. That means somebody lost. Since Lee was a General... well, must'a been a war, 'cause it sure as hell wasn't a football game. :lol:
> 
> 
> G.D.



Not me but our next door neighbour. He is an English jazz trumpet player deeply into that music culture and has also spent most of his life studying the American Civil War simply as a personal pastime. He and his lady have visited pretty well all the battle sites in the US, spending weeks driving across parts of the country seldom if ever visited by tourists. They have of course also visited New Orleans, given their enthusiasm for traditional jazz. While they were in a supermarket in one town the woman at the checkout recognised their Engish accents and announced to all the other shoppers that there were Brits in the shop, which caused considerable excitement. They were even invited to go to the local radio station to be interviewed just so that the locals could hear genuine English accents and opinions. Our neighbours, being typically English and horrified at the idea, made a quick getaway to avoid being in the spotlight like that. So, they definitely managed to find the places that other tourists evidently don't.

However, the places that they found it difficult to find were the battle sites as many locals just denied that there'd been a civil war or such battles. Even when they visited a civil war museum the curator there mourned the lack of interest that his own countrymen showed in the subject. He showed our neighbour a series of old pictures of prominent people in the war and of course our self-taught British expert could name every one of them to his delight. He said that in contrast when he showed the local youth a film about Abraham Lincoln and asked them what they thought about it they just commented that there wasn't much sex in it.

The attitude of the British government to the erratic behaviour of the union that I mentioned I got from reports of parliamentary proceedings in _The Illustrated London News_ as I have original copies of that periodical from the years around the end of the war. I acquired these from the clearance of an elderly gentleman's family home and unfortunately someone had already removed the pages relating to the death of Lincoln, but many other details of the war and the people involved were covered and made fascinating reading, even to me.

So no, I don't have first hand experience of civil war deniers but our neighbours do. Most of my correspondence with any southerner is with an Okie raised on an Oklahoma farm whose ancestor fought for the south. He actually spends some of his time enlightening people about the War of Northern Aggression as seen from the Confederate viewpoint and he also takes part in battle re-enactments. His grandson, who also takes part in the re-enactments, was very unhappy when he was required to play a part in a re-enactment of Lee's surrender, which was probably on the anniversary in 2015. 

My correspondent now works in Washington DC, where amongst other things he does research in the national archives to assist members of the US armed forces and others, including myself in the past as it happens. Of course he lives in Alexandria on the Virginian side of the Potomac in the corner cut out of the DC square to allow the slave trade there to continue for a while longer, but then he is a dyed in the wool southerner. So yes, I agree that some southerners are well versed in the war and even revel in it, but there are certainly those who appear to have a positive aversion to the subject, much like the opposing factions in the Brexit debate here.

Well, you did ask.



bazz cargo said:


> @ JustRob. I can see how the injustice of having your life arranged  without consulting you is causing a level of frustration that requires  some kind of action,  I just don't understand why anyone would vote to  wreck their own lives and the lives of countless others.



Our first past the post electoral system makes the average voter feel that their vote is unlikely to make any difference, the system being designed to maintain the stability of the major political parties. Hence we do not bother to consider the issues seriously. If we felt that knowing about them personally would make any difference then we might pay more attention to them, but in general our opinions have never had any effect on any issue in British politics and the referendum result was just a flook. The major political parties insist on our electoral system having this effect of potentially allowing government of the country to drift away from the wishes of the majority, so they should stick to their guns and never directly ask for our opinions on anything. They don't need a second referendum now but just the guts to ignore the results of the first.


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## Kevin

Still lacking any data I'm left to come up with my own conclusions: Rather than pieces of sky raining down upon them (crash! Bang!; ow! Oof!) I'm supposing the island will sink without the last, erhm.. years of continental support. I've always wondered how it is that islands float, dirt being heavy and such.


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## bazz cargo

> *OP JustRob.* Our first past the post electoral system makes the average voter feel  that their vote is unlikely to make any difference, the system being  designed to maintain the stability of the major political parties. Hence  we do not bother to consider the issues seriously. If we felt that  knowing about them personally would make any difference then we might  pay more attention to them, but in general our opinions have never had  any effect on any issue in British politics and the referendum result  was just a flook. The major political parties insist on our electoral  system having this effect of potentially allowing government of the  country to drift away from the wishes of the majority, so they should  stick to their guns and never directly ask for our opinions on anything.  They don't need a second referendum now but just the guts to ignore the  results of the first.


Hmmm.... I don't see this as a flook. A lot of media savvy big wheels used some very nasty emotional manipulation to force this result. This is a deliberate, long term, thoroughly cynical and successful form of warfare. None of the leave voters I know are going to change their minds despite the leave campaign being totally discredited. I suspect we are living through Brexit Mania, similar to the Tulip Mania which ended in 1637.  

I still don't know why....


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## PiP

I doubt the leave voters will change their mind because they don't want to admit they were duped. Only last night I was watching a program about the effect Brexit will have on the Police and sharing information across borders. Then there is NI... what a clusterfuck that will be.


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## JustRob

Northern Ireland only has a problem because Eire isn't leaving planning to leave the EU as well.

There may well have been factions who actually wanted or even still want us to leave, but it is also possible that the referendum result was partially a reaction to politicians gambling on the electorate for purely political ends. It was held to prove that the Conservative party stood by the promise made in their election manifesto, the assumption being that the result would be not to leave anyway, so no harm would be done. Equally Theresa May subsequently called a general election in the hope of strengthening her position, but instead she weakened it. I don't think the electorate at large like politicians using them in their political games like this but effectively ignoring them the rest of the time and now parliament is paying the price, having to work hard to dig itself and the country out of the hole that its members themselves have dug. If they stop trying to save the party political system and focus on what is best for the country things should turn out fine, but they have to make the decision between party allegiances and the good of the country it seems.

As for whether any of us really have strong feelings about our membership of the EU, if I for one did then I would have written to my MP about it, not waited patiently for a referendum, but I didn't. I have written to my MP about other matters and got good results from doing so, so I have faith in local politics working but higher up the chain where party politics prevail matters seem to get more erratic. 

There seem to be similar problems with such inertia in the USA. It is a known fact that large continents drift but small islands don't seem so prone to doing that. We can't go far so long as Eire remains in our way anyway.


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## Guard Dog

JustRob said:


> However, the places that they found it difficult to find were the battle sites as many locals just denied that there'd been a civil war or such battles.



This sounds more like people trying to shoo away tourists than anything, to me.

Some folks just don't like having people coming around asking questions about things that they personally may not have any knowledge of, or any interest in.

So, probably not so much deniers as people that are just tired of unwanted attention.




G.D.


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## Winston

I'll just never wrap my head around the concept of folks across the water, in another land, dictating the minutia of your daily life.  
That seems grossly inefficient and anti-liberty.  But I'm just overly simplistic and partisan.  And 'Murican.


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## Guard Dog

Winston said:


> And *'Murican*.


Bolding mine.

Funny, but every time I see this, I think of this guy, since he used the word a lot.:

Gallagher and English language
A better, slightly longer version.

G.D.


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## bazz cargo

Better let Putin Know.





Winston said:


> I'll just never wrap my head around the concept of folks across the water, in another land, dictating the minutia of your daily life.
> That seems grossly inefficient and anti-liberty.  But I'm just overly simplistic and partisan.  And 'Murican.


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## Winston

bazz cargo said:


> Better let Putin Know.



Say I know that guy!  Isn't he the convenient "straw man" losers blame every time they can't justify their self-inflicted defeat?  
I mean that was one of the arguments the Stay folks foisted, right?  The EU is weaker without GB, therefore, a vote for Leave is a vote for Putin.  
Putin bad, Merkel good. Four legs good, two legs bad.  
Pure logic, that.


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## Guard Dog

Everybody has a great leader... depending on who you ask.

And everybody has a suck-ass leader... depending on who you ask.

So I'd really rather not see a game of "I'll show you yous 'cause you're showing me mine."


...'Cause that would just be... ugly. [-X



G.D.


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## bazz cargo

Putin does like America, and he bought it surprisingly cheap. 

I'm sure there is no EU verses Putin struggle, Putin is just out for everything he can get. The EU is also out for everything they can get. So is every other country. 

When The UK leaves the EU they will both take a hell of a knock, Like every other country Russia will take advantage. That's Darwinism for you. 

I still don't understand why The UK is willing to stab itself in the back and then irritate all its friends.





Winston said:


> Say I know that guy!  Isn't he the convenient "straw man" losers blame every time they can't justify their self-inflicted defeat?
> I mean that was one of the arguments the Stay folks foisted, right?  The EU is weaker without GB, therefore, a vote for Leave is a vote for Putin.
> Putin bad, Merkel good. Four legs good, two legs bad.
> Pure logic, that.


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## epimetheus

Winston said:


> I'll just never wrap my head around the concept of folks across the water, in another land, dictating the minutia of your daily life.
> That seems grossly inefficient and anti-liberty.  But I'm just overly simplistic and partisan.  And 'Murican.



What minutiae of daily life do you imagine European governments control?


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## PiP

bazz cargo said:


> I still don't understand why The UK is willing to stab itself in the back and then irritate all its friends.



Because the 'people' have spoken and TM is on a suicide mission.


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## Winston

*Cassius:*
 "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
 But in ourselves, that we are underlings."

Julius Caesar (I, ii, 140-141) 

Life is much easier when one can simply shrug, point at Brussels, and walk away. Some really like that.


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## Phil Istine

PiP said:


> Because the 'people' have spoken and TM is on a suicide mission.



I rate another referendum as 50-50.  But she will likely delay that as long as possible because it would finish her, just as a no-deal brexit would.  I still haven't forgiven the bigot for Windrush, and probably never will.
Politicians haven't yet adapted to a world with the internet.  Many of them still behave as though they can get away with the indiscretions of the past, forgetting that they can be publicly called to account now, even by nobodies.


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## bazz cargo

Kicking the can down the road is the preferred method of dealing with any problem, especially one which is either monumentally stupid or impossible. Perhaps she is hoping for a convenient war or volcano or something. The only way to commit Brexit is to throw Northern Ireland under the Brexit bus and then go and live on a tropical island somewhere while the lunatics take over the asylum. 

We need a better alternative to replace this lot of weirdos than the fascists, they are good at feeding the fear of strangers but their cure is a particularly nasty form of oppression.  And they know how to use the internet.





			
				[B said:
			
		

> Phil Istine;2198466[/B]]I rate another referendum as 50-50.  But she will likely delay that as long as possible because it would finish her, just as a no-deal brexit would.  I still haven't forgiven the bigot for Windrush, and probably never will.
> Politicians haven't yet adapted to a world with the internet.  Many of them still behave as though they can get away with the indiscretions of the past, forgetting that they can be publicly called to account now, even by nobodies.


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## bazz cargo

Utterly failed to add link...


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## escorial

Come what May some big financial predators have decided to move whether the UK (time to ditch that) stay or go...alot of service sector firms are moving to Ire...natural migration I believe...the good news alot of Tory party members sold their corillion shares before the collapse and many of them have invested in other currencies and have made a killing so far...do you believe in conspiracy theories...


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## Ralph Rotten

So I have a question;

Based on everything I have been able to read on the origins of Brexit, it seems that Vlad and his army of trolls war largely behind the movement.
He used his cyber-army to drive anti-immigrant sentiment, and convinced a great many people that Brexit was the solution (which they discovered the morning after was not the case at all.)
I read about the commotion of Brexit every day, but any mention of Vlad's interference seems to have been forgotten.

*So my question is: Once people found out Vlad had hoodwinked you, why didn't more people demand an untainted referendum?*



Putin did this to the UK because it weakens Europe.
He dumped Trump on America because it would cause absolute chaos.


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## Ralph Rotten

The EU allowed Europe to compete on even ground against America, China, & Japan.  But AFTER Brexit, the UK won't even be able to compete with California.


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## bazz cargo

On Twitter I found a video of Anna Soubry, owning up to being fooled. It is not often a politician owns up and apologises. 

Most Brexit voters I meet are religiously engaged, beyond facts and into 'God made it so.' I wonder if we will end up with partitioning England?


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## Olly Buckle

bazz cargo said:


> I wonder if we will end up with partitioning England?



Independence for Staplecross and Ewehurst parish NOW !


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## escorial

i  wonder if the price of a rolling stones ticket will go down after march 29


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## Kevin

I pledge my troth... to Lady Jane


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## bazz cargo

^ Well done Kev, I hope you have a beautiful wedding and a great life. 
And so to Brexit.

We are now into Through The Looking Glass territory. Nothing makes sense. The Government has whipped against their own motions. The obnoxious windbag is asking the EU to intervene. The anti-democratic EU is soon holding the next round of elections. Holding a people's vote is anti-democratic and A Hard Brexit which will mean hardship and chaos will be good for us!!!

I was promised a deal done in an afternoon.
A better deal than we have now.
A free pass into the continent so we could use the EU membership contribution to help the NHS.
No more foreigners. 
Higher wages.
Cheaper prices.
No more foreign laws.


What I am being offered is... 
More than twenty years more negotiating.
A version of austerity that will take me back to the Second World War level of rationing.
Fewer rights.
More unemployment.
Lower wages.
More foreigners from further afield without a reciprocal deal.  
A continuous expenditure on border tariffs.  
The World Trade Organisation being in charge of our laws. 
This, by the way, is what is going to be good for me.

Dunkirk Spirit guys, that will see us through...


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## PiP

BAzz, the PEOPLE have voted. It doesn't matter they were fed manure ... Brexit, means Brexit! they can have 20 different votes in PArliament but the people only got one...

Here's something to consider.

Pig-pooh fuel is more eco-friendly than diesel. You feed the pigs, they poop and provide fuel as well as food. Yay, the UK is to become an independent nation of pig farmers. Each household can have its own pig to produce fuel. It goes to the vote: diesel or pig-pooh fuel. The idealists were sold the dream and by a slim majority (of those who could be bothered to get off their butts and vote) won. Britain was to be powered by pig-pooh! The rest of Europe groaned at their stupidity.

However, many of the more skeptical politicians were not sold on the idea and when more facts emerged they, the constituents representatives, voted against it. They tried to explain that pig pooh stunk... not everyone could keep pigs, there would be vet bills, sanitation issues and a whole host of other challenges, but no... the people were sold the idea of pig-pooh fuel, and regardless of the consequences, they'd voted and they *wanted* pig-pooh fuel. 

Ho hum... when the shit of realization eventually hits the fan... duck, because pig-pooh fuel was only meant to be used by farmers to avoid paying the toxin tax.  So the pipedream of the few became the nightmare of the masses. Here endeth the parable on Brexit


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## Olly Buckle

Since when did you believe the promises of politicians, Bazz ? I should be wary of those offers as well, it probably won't actually be that good.


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## Ralph Rotten

I was following media closely when Brexit was brewing, and it looked like Putin really jangled the anti-immigration nerve. I remember reading people's logic for Brexit and thinking "But Brexit WON'T fix those things."
There'd still be immigration, there'd be trade issues, and it was a safe bet that the rest of the EU would gouge them in the market (as retribution for kicking them to the curb like a one-night-stand.)

$@# Putin.


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## Kevin

Can't comment on brexit- not with any 'authority'. 

Reading headlines or stories doesn't give a full or even an actual picture of what's going on here, where I live. I know that because I live here. I see things written about here- partial pictures that may even cite stats- stupid stats that aren't specific enough, leave out things- which is spin-  and then opinions by people who are then misinformed or uninformed. 

That's me and brexit, except I don't give an opinion. I would need to be on the ground to know what's going on. That's what I think judging by how things are reported about here, where I live, and not reported about.


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## Ralph Rotten

The way I consume news compensates for the inaccuracies of a single outlet.


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## Kevin

Ralph Rotten said:


> The way I consume news compensates for the inaccuracies of a single outlet.


 everything's skewed in my state. They don't even report the sh... It's not one outlet, its one source repeated by a bunch of outlets. People from other states have no clue about the realities of my state because of this.


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## Ralph Rotten

That's why when I read the news I go to google and search for the word NEWS, and read them all, including Fox. The only one I skip is US News because they are soooo shallow. US News is like reading Time Magazine: Once you read the synopsis, you've pretty much read the whole article.

Once you read them all, you can better see the true shape of the world.


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## Winston

I include The Onion in my news diet.
It turns out Boris Johnson lost a bet with Theresa May.  Now, if May can get a Brexit resolution before May Day, Johnson has to go to work the next day in drag.


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## bazz cargo

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson. For marketing purposes, Boris Johnson. Possibly the most accomplished marital cheat the UK will ever have for PM. 

The current PM is about to ram her deal up against the hardcore lunatics again, and again, until it gets through.

I do get threats by people who don't like me pointing out the holes in their Brexit religion. I dare not discuss it with my wife.


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## JustRob

Do you think the PM could get away with declaring Brexit to be a national emergency and demanding to build a big wall between Northern Ireland and Eire to solve the Irish backstop problem, or is that just too ridiculous to contemplate? Is it any more ridiculous than what is currently happening here though?

Now that our folding currency is made from tough plastic is it less likely to crumble, do you think? We've noticed that once it gets crumpled it stays crumpled permanently though. Also, is the pound in our pockets now made from two different metals because they couldn't decide which to choose? 

Ah, the symbolism of it all.


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## Kevin

Round our house: 

"...I've heard of it, and it just so happens I do have an opinion."
"And...?"
"Well, I feel it's a terrible waste."
"What is?"
"Leavin' all that food."
"What food?"
"Brekfist- who don't like brekfist?"


----------



## bazz cargo

For those of you who wish to discover the true madness of it all, I recommend James O' Brian, on LBC radio. 10.00-13.00  weekdays. His twitter feed is a bit tame in comparison. There is a podcast. 


https://www.google.com/search?clien...+march+sunderland+to+london&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

I wish my imagination was a match for reality.


----------



## PiP

Sigh... Brexit is a pantomime and I am embarrassed to be British.


----------



## epimetheus

PiP said:


> Sigh... Brexit is a pantomime and I am embarrassed to be British.



The irony is that the process has made the lumbering EU look united and competent.


----------



## Phil Istine

bazz cargo said:


> For those of you who wish to discover the true madness of it all, I recommend James O' Brian, on LBC radio. 10.00-13.00  weekdays. His twitter feed is a bit tame in comparison. There is a podcast.
> 
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?clien...+march+sunderland+to+london&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
> 
> I wish my imagination was a match for reality.



Yes, I listen to him sometimes.
Farage has a regular slot too.  I tried phoning him a while back to extract the urine, but I couldn't get through.


----------



## Olly Buckle

The 'revoke article 50' petition revises every eight seconds and is going up by about 500 signatures every time at the moment; there are a lot of pissed off people.


----------



## bdcharles

Olly Buckle said:


> The 'revoke article 50' petition revises every eight seconds and is going up by about 500 signatures every time at the moment; there are a lot of pissed off people.



Yeah, it's tempting to watch the figures whizz up but that just adds strains to the servers and means more people can't sign. It's a little demoralising that none of these petitions have ever achieved much by way of actual change though. Saturday's march however...


----------



## Olly Buckle

Yeah, the missus watching it the other side of the room says it keeps crashing, apparently it is being signed by more people than has ever happened before on a govt. petition.


----------



## Ralph Rotten




----------



## midnightpoet

I apologize in advance to our friends in the UK but I have this picture of the Queen sitting in her parlor eating crumpets and sipping tea and remembering the grand old empire days and thinking: "This is what we get for letting the rabble take over."


----------



## bazz cargo

Poor Queenie, she has to sit and wait while the government go ahead and break up the UK. Northern Ireland is going under the Brexit bus. The racists in Scotland, who hate the English, will finally get to secede. Not sure about the Welsh, they have an independent attitude but it is coupled with a pragmatic streak. The Disunited Kingdom...

Jacob Rees Mogg has changed his mind and is going to back Tessa's deal, pity the rest of us aren't going to get a chance to do likewise.


----------



## escorial

Failing Grayling has failed for 25 years and law of averages says you gotta pull one out of the hat..make him PM


----------



## dither

Olly Buckle said:


> The 'revoke article 50' petition revises every eight seconds and is going up by about 500 signatures every time at the moment; there are a lot of pissed off people.



A lot of people are going to be peed off either way, it's a closely run thing, has totally split the country.


----------



## bazz cargo

Brexit has reached a level of faith that should make it a new religion.  

Support the Great Brexit swindle, you know it doesn't make sense.


----------



## escorial

I've been emailing off shore Banks to see if I can move all my debts to a safer place


----------



## bazz cargo

^ Have you tried a credit union?


----------



## Ralph Rotten

I kinda liked my slogan: Mulligan the Brexit!


----------



## Olly Buckle

As someone pointed out, there are three camps, there are the public who are split in two, just under half wanted to stay in, just over half wanted right out. Then there are the politicians who want to satisfy the bigger half by leaving in name and the smaller half by making a deal that keeps us in in everything but name, thereby pissing off everyone.


----------



## -xXx-

this was the very first item on my day.
the relief that came with confirming
that the UK factions continued to exist
after midnight UT defies all words
i have been able to find.
i may have to build one myself.

heeeeeeeeelllo UK-ites!!!!!
i really think the heritage cheese thing
is worth bringing up to members of parliament
and those other people with letters.


----------



## JustRob

So following rejection of _that deal_ for the third time Donald Tusk has called a meeting of the EU Council on the 10th April to discuss the situation. Given that the EU keeps telling us how bad it would be _for Britain_ to leave without a deal (without clarifying that it would be equally bad for them) perhaps they ought to throw us out without a deal just to teach us a lesson. That would put them in a much stronger negotiating position, but only if they were right.


----------



## -xXx-

JustRob said:


> So following rejection of _that deal_ for the third time Donald Tusk has called a meeting of the EU Council on the 10th April to discuss the situation. Given that the EU keeps telling us how bad it would be _for Britain_ to leave without a deal (without clarifying that it would be equally bad for them) perhaps they ought to throw us out without a deal just to teach us a lesson. That would put them in a much stronger negotiating position, but only if they were right.


_*now also needs word for _a sad that eats through everything like acid_*
*rereads etymology of frustration*
*scans for bloggs and olly*_
good to see you out and about.
there are flowers here.
now.


----------



## escorial

I reckon parliament is a true reflection of the people they represent an brexit has shown that...what does the future holds..possibly the far right getting mp's and Scotland going it's own way...as for NI..would Irish Republic even want that baggage around their neck..for me the future is a parting for all of the UK...worth a try


----------



## Olly Buckle

I don't understand why the SNP don't put up candidates in English constituencies? Anyone who was socialist would probably prefer them to Labour who can't make their mind up if they are Blairites or Corbynites. Add to that all the people who would like to get rid of Scotland and they could end up with a majority in the English parliament and vote themselves independence from England and back into the EU.


----------



## escorial

They had the opportunity to depart but the fear of the unkown may have been stronger than wants/desire...


----------



## -xXx-

Olly Buckle said:


> <snip> Add to that all the people who would like to get rid of Scotland <snip>.



request for context.
scotland seems likable enough from here.
is this economic, idealogical or other no-compromise-identifiable?
plsnthx.
_*still trying*
*check back monday*_


----------



## bazz cargo

I have finally figured out, we are in Brexit hell. It doesn't matter which deal or no deal is arrived at this is not going to stop. Unless Article 50 is rescinded this is going to go on long past my death. A constant diet of Brexit news will dominate everything. No-one seems to have realised the EU will still be there after we have left and we will have to negotiate a new trade deal to replace the one we just junked. There is, quite literally, no end to this madness. The 'we want a hard Brexit now and then it will all be over' brigade are in for a nasty surprise.


----------



## -xXx-

bazz cargo said:


> <snip> There is, quite literally, no end to this madness. The 'we want a hard Brexit now and then it will all be over' brigade are in for a nasty surprise.



_*picks up islands*
*and goes home*_

can't say i disagree.
still don't understand the scotland thing tho'.
_*best*_


----------



## Olly Buckle

> The 'we want a hard Brexit now and then it will all be over' brigade are in for a nasty surprise.


 If they are thick enough to think like that they must spend enough of their life being surprised they are used to it by now.


----------



## escorial

Big business doesn't need migrants so much as there is enough desperate Brits to replace them..so why can't the middle class agree to leave..I think it's a battle between the upper middle class and the lower middle class who have holiday homes abroad..one has wheels the other doesn't.


----------



## Olly Buckle

I predict a long delay, many hard negotiations, many long lunches, many business class journeys and many secondary expenses.


----------



## -xXx-

Olly Buckle said:


> I predict a long delay, many hard negotiations, many long lunches, many business class journeys and many secondary expenses.



yes, but will they call out for chinese?
limited-culture-specific-precedence
has suggested this as denoting
real commitment to _giterdun_.

_*reads like maniac*
*still does not get scotland*_


----------



## bazz cargo

Just for 3X.

Imagine Klingons in kilts.


----------



## -xXx-

there are translators for that now.
jussayin'
i hear brexercise is popular enough
they have to replace the faces
more than they planned.
thx.
_*looks up kilts*
*avoids bagpipes*_


----------



## Kevin

Brexit, like Guy Fauks Day, and many other pronouncements - minor and otherwise- of the English, in their english, remain inscrutable.


----------



## Winston

bazz cargo said:


> I have finally figured out, we are in Brexit hell. It doesn't matter which deal or no deal is arrived at this is not going to stop.... There is, quite literally, no end to this madness....



Well then, rest assured your government is functioning exactly the way all governments do.  
Distract, delay and scare the populace while ensuring the sick system stays on life support. Just tap your feet to the "beep, beep, beep".   
And, of course, the bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.


----------



## The Green Shield

I've British friends on Facebook who discuss this, some having helpfully gotten me up to speed on things.

I'm...really sorry this is happening to y'all. D: The Tories are doing everything in their power to fuck you all over, it would seem. :c


----------



## Kevin

We voted for a thing called prop 13 over here once. They told us not to but we did anyway, and the Sky fell and we all died. That was back in '78 I think. Can't remember cause we all died, right?  
Still no clue about brexit, though...


----------



## escorial

With brexit and robots on the way I've been thinking of my future and I have decided a good job unlikley to be impacted by those things will be for me to become a porn star...


----------



## PiP

Brexit has caused a serious rift in our family to the point sister never wants to be in the same room as bother again otherwise she will punch him on the nose.

I am sick of Brexit. IT was a stupid referendum based on lies. If parliament can't agree it should go back to the people to have a voice. That would be true democracy.


----------



## Olly Buckle

escorial said:


> With brexit and robots on the way I've been thinking of my future and I have decided a good job unlikley to be impacted by those things will be for me to become a porn star...



Not a good choice, a right wing, gung ho, Brexit style govt. would come down heavily on porn, you wuld have to emigrate to Holland and then you would be replaced by a sex robot.


----------



## JustRob

On Saturday Tiger Roll won the Grand National for the second year. The next day I turned on our music system as we were sitting down to our usual Sunday roast meal and from some 2500 tunes it randomly chose to play _Land of Hope and Glory_. In the afternoon we watched the Boat Race on TV, something that we have done since we were children. At that time Brexit seemed irrelevant. Evidently being British hasn't been affected by EU membership that much and it is unlikely that whether or how we leave will affect it much either. The European Union was someone else's dream and in many of the member countries it is now becoming harder to find them as disillusionment grows. The UK may appear to be dithering but other countries are too. We just do it with more confidence.


----------



## ned

JustRob said:


> The European Union was someone else's dream and in many of the member countries it is now becoming harder to find them as disillusionment grows. The UK may appear to be dithering but other countries are too. We just do it with more confidence.



what disillusionment is that? -

that we have free trade with our largest trading partners, both imports and exports?
that we are bound by European laws of human rights, that offers justice far beyond our own laws?
that we have to pay our membership dues, which is far outstripped by free trade income?
that we are free to travel, live and work in any member country without the hassle of visas and permits?
that we are part of a financial power base independent of the whims of America, the middle and far east?
that one's efficient, cheap and friendly plumber happens to come from Poland?

as your post underlines, the British do not take very well to change - but that is what we voted for, hence the dithering.
which, if anything, betrays a total lack of confidence.


----------



## epimetheus

The EU could do with reform and this does feel a little like a missed opportunity for it. The frustrating thing about the UK in the EU is that we just seem to bitch about it but never constructively engage to change it for the better.


----------



## -xXx-

best of wishes to all of you
_*still listening*
*still trying*_


----------



## Olly Buckle

JustRob said:


> from some 2500 tunes it randomly chose to play _Land of Hope and Glory_..


 It seems random, but what were the other 2,499 tunes?


----------



## Olly Buckle

If Eire was to leave the EU and become part of the UK again, like it ought to, that would solve the backstop problem. On the other hand we could get out of Northern Ireland and hand it over to Eire.


----------



## bazz cargo

I have a thought. Is this the death throws of the Conservative party? Their grass roots membership is very small and a good percentage is ex-Ukip. Most of their income comes from trusts attached to wills. A party that has The Moggster and Kenneth Clarke in is a very broad church. Boris Johnson is aiming for the hot-seat and he will cause a few resignations. Schism anyone?  Brexit has just become a sideshow.


----------



## midnightpoet

A thought, do the "peers" (I assume pretty conservative still) still have influence as much as they did? I know the"royals" get a lot of press but is a lot of the "class system" in decline?  Here across the pond I think we developed our own class system.


----------



## Olly Buckle

midnightpoet said:


> A thought, do the "peers" (I assume pretty conservative still) still have influence as much as they did? I know the"royals" get a lot of press but is a lot of the "class system" in decline?  Here across the pond I think we developed our own class system.



Most people seem to be class conscious, I bet you don't associate with certain social groups. I don't know the political balance of the house of lords, although each party does tend to promote its own interests when proposing candidates there is a degree of balance, and only a few are hereditary peers nowadays, there are more life peers. It used to be that the House of Lords could stop a commons bill dead by voting it down. They can still stop it, but the commons can contest it nowadays, I am unsure of the conditions needed, but the Lords can be by-passed I believe.


----------



## JustRob

Olly Buckle said:


> It seems random, but what were the other 2,499 tunes?



ABBA, Alison Moyet, Beach Boys, Beatles, Bee Gees, Benny Goodman, Burt Bacharach, Cilla Black, Clannad (speaking of the Irish issue), Classical music, more Classical music, even more Classical music, guess what - Classical music, David Bowie, David Essex, Diana Ross, Duke Ellington, ELO, Elton John, Eurythmics, Fleetwood Mac, Glenn Miller, Holst (Er, that's more Classical music, isn't it?) ... What was your point?


----------



## Olly Buckle

JustRob said:


> . What was your point?


That as you chose them any might have seemed equally appropriate.


----------



## bazz cargo

Now ERG stands for Extinction Rebellion Group. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47945397

I was thinking of going to London and getting arrested. My CV is soooo boring.


----------



## escorial

Everyone wants to experience so much so quick without really understanding it all..make sure your dressed as a woman an explain to the police officer if they turn up that you are trans gender and wanted to be treated as a terrorist with access to legal aid so you can have your nationality evoked and have to live up north for the rest of your volatile life...as for your CV the world will always need ditch diggers..
.


----------



## bazz cargo

Making notes.... You seem to have a grip on this aspect of life, what did you get done for? 





escorial said:


> Everyone wants to experience so much so quick without really understanding it all..make sure your dressed as a woman an explain to the police officer if they turn up that you are trans gender and wanted to be treated as a terrorist with access to legal aid so you can have your nationality evoked and have to live up north for the rest of your volatile life...as for your CV the world will always need ditch diggers..
> .



And so, Nigel and his team of carpet chewers are ahead in the opinion polls. We are about to let the criminals lead us into dark places. In twenty years time, if we still have a civilization, this will be an interesting miniseries on Netney.


----------



## escorial

If only they  had built Disney Land  Europe in wiltshire and let the locals welcome visitors instead of getting coach loads of European migrants on a one way ticket to Wilshire land..


----------



## JustRob

Olly Buckle said:


> That as you chose them any might have seemed equally appropriate.



Ah, you assume that we chose the music in our library rather than having been given the CDs and loaded them into our server wholesale. Sometimes we wonder where on earth the library acquired a tune when the system plays it. A music library is much like a library of books. As I also buy books in second hand lots I have some that I haven't read and some that I didn't particularly enjoy but still own. Our music system has a skip button on the remote control, so we can veto its decision to play an item without removing it from the library. Hence those 2500 tunes don't necessarily represent our preferences. In fact for example there are very few songs by the Beatles that I would choose to hear. I wasn't impressed by them in the 1960s and still am not.

Interestingly this is connected with the currently active thread The Importance of Meaninglessness. I suggested that the system's choice of music at that moment was meaningful when in fact it only seemed to be. That other thread discusses how readers may infer more than the writer intended and how one can avoid that happening. Not by long explanations like the one above obviously.


----------



## bazz cargo

Honey, when you start getting advice about life from pop songs you are one step away from holding your trousers up with string and keeping ferrets in your hat. 

I'm getting a smug tingle as the phone ins are populated by holiday makers who are pissed at the climate worry-mongers who are heading for Heathrow. Suck it up dudes, after Brexit you won't be flying anyway. Yuckty yuk yuk.... 





JustRob said:


> Ah, you assume that we chose the music in our library rather than having been given the CDs and loaded them into our server wholesale. Sometimes we wonder where on earth the library acquired a tune when the system plays it. A music library is much like a library of books. As I also buy books in second hand lots I have some that I haven't read and some that I didn't particularly enjoy but still own. Our music system has a skip button on the remote control, so we can veto its decision to play an item without removing it from the library. Hence those 2500 tunes don't necessarily represent our preferences. In fact for example there are very few songs by the Beatles that I would choose to hear. I wasn't impressed by them in the 1960s and still am not.
> 
> Interestingly this is connected with the currently active thread The Importance of Meaninglessness. I suggested that the system's choice of music at that moment was meaningful when in fact it only seemed to be. That other thread discusses how readers may infer more than the writer intended and how one can avoid that happening. Not by long explanations like the one above obviously.


----------



## bazz cargo

The Cult of Nigel is careering along, the lack of rationality makes no difference. Like all cults this will end in tears.


----------



## Ralph Rotten

Even Mordor was less toxic than Brexit.
Tis the title of this article.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/11/brexit-britain-john-bercow-car-sticker


----------



## Ralph Rotten

But I think this is really a better summary of the situation:


----------



## bazz cargo

I imagine it more like sawing your own leg off without anaesthetic. "It's fine, I use the other one to play soccer with."

We have gone beyond parody into the looking glass world of newspaper logic: My cat has four legs, all cats have four legs. Your dog has four legs, therefore your dog is a cat.

What baffles me is how many are being suckered by this...


----------



## escorial

If a dog's born in a stable that doesn't make it a horse..


----------



## bazz cargo

escorial said:


> If a dog's born in a stable that doesn't make it a horse..


If he barks enough he will become a little hoarse. Bumtish.
And so, we now enter the world of spin doctor cycling. The EU elections are both a joke and a serious problem. I can't discuss them with my wife or it will be the end of my marriage. The cult of Nigel is a monster that will never die, even when the facts deny its reason for existence. He is leading us to the edge of the volcano and promising a better afterlife. Just jump with your eyes closed and believe. May God protect us all....


----------



## escorial

I knew this would happen once the Romans Empire left..what did they ever do for us...


----------



## JustRob

escorial said:


> I knew this would happen once the Romans Empire left..what did they ever do for us...



Apart from giving us the word "exit", meaning "he, she or it leaves", from which we fabricated "Brexit"? Hence "Veni, vidi, vici, Brexivi."


----------



## Olly Buckle

I like the 1066 version, Caesar called them weeny, weedy, and weaky, so they gave up.


----------



## escorial

Infamy,infamy... they've all got it in for me....carry on Brexit


----------



## Olly Buckle

escorial said:


> Infamy,infamy... they've all got it in for me....carry on Brexit



Once voted best one liner, but I think it is largely in the delivery
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6BJJe9JV_A

Bit like the Brexit arguments


----------



## escorial

Carry on Brexit
Starring
Babs...as may
Sid James..as Boris
Failing Grayling as himself
Special guest
Alf garnet..as Nigel farage
Steptoe ...as corbyn


----------



## Winston

With May gone, will you be bringing back Maggie Thatcher?
I liked her.  She had moxie.


----------



## escorial

Maggie never had a hair out of place and looked perfect taking a ride in a tank...memories


----------



## JustRob

Winston said:


> With May gone, will you be bringing back Maggie Thatcher?
> I liked her.  She had moxie.



No, we need someone with Brexie.


----------



## escorial

There is only one person to pull the UK from this mess...BONO..why have you forsaken us


----------



## bazz cargo

Margaret Thatcher had more balls than this lot. 

Looking into my crystal ball...

Someone will be appointed as new PM. Their deal will fail, there will be an election and Nigel will become PM.


Time to buy shares in a milkshake company.


----------



## Theglasshouse

I think politics should be the high office off overachievers with a background check on morality. A contest like the Olympic games. I could try writing a novel on this since one of my brothers graduated in political science. I just wanted to chime in. The only thing I know about brexit is that the newspapers say they are trying to overturn it.


----------



## escorial

MrsT never pretended to be someone other than herself..with no empathy for most people..compared with the likes of Tony Benn who played at being a socialist and died leaving a 10 million fortune..


----------



## Winston

escorial said:


> MrsT never pretended to be someone other than herself..with no empathy for most people..compared with the likes of Tony Benn who played at being a socialist and died leaving a 10 million fortune..



She's only been dead six years.  And still has more life in her than May.


----------



## escorial

Thatcher unleashed the forces of captalism and if she had forseen globalisation she would have shagged trump


----------



## bazz cargo

It is the old either or argument, I reckon it takes a bit of each to make things work properly. 

I've been thinking about the new flag we are going to need. How about a rainbow with a black band included with a disability symbol in each corner?


----------



## escorial

It's not flag we need it's an estate agents for sale sign


----------



## JustRob

Following the recent EU elections the disparity between the distribution of our Westminster MPs across the political parties and that of our EU parliament MEPs is striking. This arises not just because different issues affected their election at different times but because the former arises from our antiquated first-past-the-post electoral system and the latter from the modern proportional electoral system employed by the EU. Our two major parties have resisted electoral reform and proportional representation because it would quite clearly weaken them. It seems strange then that while they persist in preserving their cosy club, based on old class distinctions and outdated presumed conflicts between employers and employees, they are apparently generally in favour of deferring to another parliament based on a fairer system of representation when modern issues that really matter to us are involved.

Our parliament only has itself to blame for becoming so unrepresentative that it cannot resolve the Brexit issue by adhering to its conventional party lines. The fractures now appearing in them are evidence of that. There is a strong feeling there that another referendum or a general election may be needed to resolve the matter, but in reality what is needed is a general election based on a different electoral system and the chance of that happening while the present unrepresentative club remains in power is remote.

Yes, many of us would like to leave the EU, but in addition we would like to do so with a parliament of our own that represents us as fairly as the EU parliament does, but nobody will be asking for our opinion on that for a long time because the unwelcome answer is all too obvious from the EU elections.


----------



## escorial

The gravy train just keeps rolling on...I don't think people(lawyers)..go into politics because they suddenly have a desire to help the community..it's more about climbing the social ladder...getting the kids into better schools...getting into more prestigious golf clubs..etc..the worse ones are the socalist who go an soon realize this is a good earner and fall into the Westminster gravy train ..as Shakespeare wrote...start by killing all the lawyers...


----------



## escorial

Gove snorted coke...weird the way people react to politicians lifestyle choices...we are all hypocrites and I do believe we get the politicians we want...


----------



## JustRob

escorial said:


> Gove snorted coke...weird the way people react to politicians lifestyle choices...we are all hypocrites and I do believe we get the politicians we want...



... but not in the right proportions apparently.


----------



## Olly Buckle

escorial said:


> Gove snorted coke...weird the way people react to politicians lifestyle choices...we are all hypocrites and I do believe we get the politicians we want...



'Want' or 'Deserve'?

Edit, I also wondered what he 'regretted' about snorting coke? Bad coke maybe?


----------



## escorial

any skeletons in your closet JR


----------



## escorial

both Olly...I know 2 people who tried to make their way in politics and could not get in with the right people...I reckon what the people want is hypocracy


----------



## Olly Buckle

escorial said:


> any skeletons in your closet JR


I wondered about your past when you said 'We are all hypocrites'. And of course there are, what would be the point of a closet without skeletons? Just don't expect us to share them.


----------



## escorial

you hypocrite...


----------



## JustRob

escorial said:


> any skeletons in your closet JR



Ah, my skeleton's fine but my flesh is weak. It isn't just old age taking its toll. Far from using drugs recreationally I have always tended to overreact to even prescribed ones. In my youth I was once prescribed tranquillisers for a short while but they made me hyperactive, so I had to stop taking them. I only drink caffeine free drinks because caffeine even in small doses hypes me up too much. My angel can just about cope with me normally but one cup of caffeinated coffee makes me quite intolerable, even to myself. I was once served one by mistake in a cafe a little while back and we both suffered the consequences until the effects wore off. Bearing in mind the average length and content of my posts normally, you wouldn't want to read ones written under the influence of caffeine.



Olly Buckle said:


> Edit, I also wondered what he 'regretted' about snorting coke? Bad coke maybe? :smile:


All Coke is bad from my perspective as I prefer only to drink caffeine free Pepsi.


----------



## Ralph Rotten

"Might as well go for a soda!"
Kim Mitchell


[video=youtube;MXnTbmPxv5g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXnTbmPxv5g[/video]


----------



## Olly Buckle

Your favourite cherry red? You can't always get what you want Jimmy.


----------



## -xXx-

Olly Buckle said:


> <snip> You can't always get what you want Jimmy.



*contemplates*
*looks up etymology*
*austere*
*goes for soda*
*thinks about br.ex.it*
*looks up jimmy*


----------



## Olly Buckle

Try looking up 'Lyrics, You can't always get what you want, Rolling Stones'


----------



## bazz cargo

And so we now have a flock of fantasists looking to unite the Conservative party at the expense of the country. It won't work. We have to accept that Nigel has brought to the surface a enough schisms to end the con party as we know it. 

After a few years in the wilderness we will either be the newest State in America or the latest supplicant to join the EU. 

Can anyone provide me ten good reasons for leaving the EU?


----------



## Olly Buckle

> Can anyone provide me ten good reasons for leaving the EU?



Well, not ten, but how about this. At present thousands of containers daily pass through British ports to and from the EU. There was a documentary recently where customs had stopped one with forty tons of cannabis and amphetamine. If the dealers can afford to lose that there must be a lot of others getting through. So, stop the traffic and you kill the drug trade dead; not only will it be difficult to smuggle, no one would have the money to buy it if it got here.


----------



## escorial

1x10...the euro


----------



## JustRob

bazz cargo said:


> Can anyone provide me ten good reasons for leaving the EU?



France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Austria, Belgium ...


----------



## escorial

It's people over 50...honky...middle rich who will pick the next PM...members like Bazz Cargo,Olly Burke,Just Rob now have the power


----------



## JustRob

escorial said:


> It's people over 50...honky...middle rich who will pick the next PM...members like Bazz Cargo,Olly Burke,Just Rob now have the power



How come when I'm not a member of the Conservative party, indeed do not subscribe to the current idea of party politics at all? At lunch today my angel and I were just discussing, although I'm not sure that she got much say in the discussion, that the only way forward is a community party, but that all too easily gets perceived as being a communist party. Small scale communism, i.e. people taking an interest in their local community, is very different from the national idea of state communism. It is in fact probably the life blood of small town America, although Americans may not thank me for suggesting that. Certainly village communities in Britain see it as the only way to preserve their distinct identities. How our members of parliament represent our local interests is far more important to us than anything that happens at a national level.

At lunch we were actually discussing our experiences on holiday on the Isles of Scilly, a tiny community living on just a few square miles of land well within our edge of the Atlantic Ocean. Tourism is their life blood and they have approached it as an integrated community to their advantage. For example, transport to the islands is provided by one company which integrates both the ferry and air services, so when our flight home was cancelled because of fog they simply transferred us to the ferry without our having to do anything. Very conveniently fog that grounds aircraft also results in a smooth sea crossing for the ferry. In addition they provided a coach to get us from the ferry port on the mainland to the airport where our car was parked over a hundred miles away, all as part of their service. Doing that preserved the reputation of the islands as an ideal tourist destination. 

When travelling to the Scillies by ferry one simply puts a label on one's luggage identifying where one will be staying and it will be in the room when one arrives. How it gets there is just something to take for granted. Even if one is staying on one of the "off islands" it will have been shipped over from the ferry by the local boatmen's association, which is now a community service with all the boatmen sharing equally in the profits. In the past they all competed with each other but the new approach works much better for everyone. 

There is currently discussion on resuming a helicopter service to the islands that can operate in any weather, but currently two companies are competing to provide it. The local transport company want to do so as an integrated part of their operations but another company is competing with them. The locals very much want the local company to get the contract as it will preserve the integrity of their community and ensure that their reputation for reliability is consistently preserved. Any outside company would be bound to have other business motives. When the fixed wing service was not operating at the end of our holiday, had we had to transfer to a helicopter provided by another company it probably wouldn't have been such a seamless service as the transfer to the ferry was. 

This is what I mean by small scale communism and any party that supported this attitude at a national level would certainly attract my interest once electoral reform occurred and we could actually vote for parties to define national policy as distinct from local concerns. In contrast the EU is just too large ever to be regarded as an integrated community. What works well on a few square miles where everybody knows everyone else virtually personally doesn't work across a continent. Also, the Scillies are islands just like Britain with a clearly defined physical boundary. On the continent some towns have never even definitely decided which country they belong to and Switzerland came into existence because people from several neighbouring countries all decided that they didn't want to belong to any of them. Can anyone claim that Switzerland has been a big disaster because its people didn't want to be part of Europe despite being at its centre? The Swiss haven't even agreed on a national language yet but they are pretty successful nevertheless. Any differences of opinion within the UK are trivial in comparison.


----------



## escorial

all private school kids start out communist and after they reach 40 they become raving Tories....


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## JustRob

escorial said:


> all private school kids start out communist and after they reach 40 they become raving Tories....



Hmm. I was a working class kid who was sent to a charity school that provided the equivalent of a high quality private school education which left me ... well, anywhere in society that I chose to be really. That's why I'm just Rob. I can adapt. So can my angel, but then that's what angels do. On our many holidays around Britain we have accepted the hospitality of all types equally. How many tourists have stopped over at a B&B in Coalville for example? There's absolutely nothing for tourists in Coalville, although they do at least have B&B, and when we were there there was little for the residents either once the mines had closed. Since we visited even the discovery museum at the old Snibston colliery has closed although we did get to go there years ago. The one thing that does abound in many places though is hospitality, provided that you are willing to accept it as given. (Surely of all places that is true in Liverpool.) We are so willing. Our backgrounds make that so and those can never change. When we married my angel spent ages in the bathroom because it was the first time that she had lived in a home with running hot water. Does having running hot water make us Tories then? I didn't know that things had got quite that bad. We've never actually voted for them. Around here they just get in regardless of who we vote for, so why should we? That's why electoral reform is so important to us, to give us a voice in politics. We live in Kent because my company moved here from the City of London decades ago and I came with it. Neither of us were born here though. Life's a lottery and that's the truth of it, but there would be no hope at all in the world without that thought.


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## escorial

Your profile is similar to esther mcvey


----------



## bazz cargo

I could use the same argument we use to support arms dealing, if I don't sell em drugs then someone else will. But no. We have a drug problem in this country, and around the world, because of money. Take away the profits and it will all but disappear. Portugal has made a damn good effort. When we leave the EU and do not put up a border in Ireland, guess where the dealers will ship it? We want to fix this problem then hit them in the profits.


Olly Buckle said:


> Well, not ten, but how about this. At present thousands of containers daily pass through British ports to and from the EU. There was a documentary recently where customs had stopped one with forty tons of cannabis and amphetamine. If the dealers can afford to lose that there must be a lot of others getting through. So, stop the traffic and you kill the drug trade dead; not only will it be difficult to smuggle, no one would have the money to buy it if it got here.


Interesting. Not being in the Euro currency has proven to be one of our finest mistakes. Will it disappear? Maybe. I expect the world will be using the Facebook Dollar in the future. There is something to look forward to, a non-elected power running the world's financial system. 


escorial said:


> 1x10...the euro


I know you are not racist. Is there another reason behind your anti-EU stance?


JustRob said:


> France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Austria, Belgium ...


I have as little say in what the government do. I can only stand by and tut.


escorial said:


> It's people over 50...honky...middle rich who will pick the next PM...members like Bazz Cargo,Olly Burke,Just Rob now have the power


And Sun readers. And Mail readers. Only they seem to have the Cult of Nigel to rave about now.


escorial said:


> all private school kids start out communist and after they reach 40 they become raving Tories....


----------



## escorial

I went to benidorm before the euro and when I got  of that aeroplane..I lived like a king for two weeks an the euro took that away from me...


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## bazz cargo

When the referendum result was announced, Spreadsheet Phil and Mark Carney, shifted the interest rates, pumped billions of QE into the system and narrowly avoided a recession. The GBP dropped from 178 to 131 against the Dollar. Since then it is dropping a little every-time we move closer to Brexit. Massive betting is waiting for the event. I have no idea how low it will go. Cherish your memories.


escorial said:


> I went to benidorm before the euro and when I got  of that aeroplane..I lived like a king for two weeks an the euro took that away from me...


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## PiP

Sigh... I don't know which is worse: Leaving the EU or  Boris the buffoon as Prime Minister. If that is the best candidate the conservatives have to offer, God help us. And as for JC, it does not even bear thinking about.... bring back Margaret Thatcher *ducks*


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## escorial

Living in a boom or bust economy is fundermental to captalism....greed is the future and the past


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## bazz cargo

Considering how many of these weasels have been putting words in her mouth I think her return would be entertaining. 
Alexander Johnson will last about three weeks before an election will be called. Whack-a-mole on the Titanic.


PiP said:


> Sigh... I don't know which is worse: Leaving the EU or  Boris the buffoon as Prime Minister. If that is the best candidate the conservatives have to offer, God help us. And as for JC, it does not even bear thinking about.... bring back Margaret Thatcher *ducks*



Capitalism is survival of the fittest. You can work solo or as a team. I am by nature a solo git but I recognise the need for some team playing.


escorial said:


> Living in a boom or bust economy is fundermental to captalism....greed is the future and the past


----------



## Olly Buckle

I always remember someone looking after a girl who had used 'It's the survival of the fittest' as a justification for some deviousness and saying 'What makes her think she's fit to survive?'. It is one of those circular things, the fittest survive, fittest for what? fittest for survival. Plus it is a misconception applying it to individuals, it is a species thing. What qualities do make us fitter to survive as a species? At the moment I would put my money on bacteria and blue-green algae.


----------



## escorial

PiP said:


> Sigh... I don't know which is worse: Leaving the EU or  Boris the buffoon as Prime Minister. If that is the best candidate the conservatives have to offer, God help us. And as for JC, it does not even bear thinking about.... bring back Margaret Thatcher *ducks*



he never turned up on the TV debate an one of the losing contenders has supported him..why because he thinks he will do a good job our keep himself on the winners side and stay on the gravy train...for me the Tories are bankrupt and are looking to a populist celeb..if costing the tax payer 40 million quid over a bridge never built is were they put their faith in a man running the country their judgement is poor...I reckon


----------



## escorial

the abb will be hoping to challenge their rival after the cut tonight on TV...Boris can and does deflect so much that pisses others of but what they may not get is that he has no shame..very trumpish..they all think they are more intelligent and capable then he is but it's just ego..seems Florence of Arabia is making headway an he fits the stereotype..Eton boy...


----------



## JustRob

escorial said:


> Your profile is similar to esther mcvey



Do you mean me? I don't see the similarity. She became a director in her father's business while my father worked nights as a porter at London Bridge station unloading the fish for Billingsgate Market from the trains. He also loaded the early morning newspaper trains with the daily papers from Fleet Street. Hardly a family business then.



bazz cargo said:


> I know you are not racist. Is there another reason behind your anti-EU stance?



I wouldn't know what race to represent if I were. My DNA indicates that my family origins were in Germany and my father was born a south bank Cockney in London. My own birthday is United Nations day, so that's the only flag that I would salute as the UN was created for the sake of the futures of wartime children like me everywhere. The EU is exclusive but the UN isn't. No deal with the EU is effectively the same deal with every country, not exclusion but equitable inclusion. Boris has the right idea, to work from a no deal basis. If the EU won't agree to a deal then there can be no deal because of their attitude. The blame for that can't just lie with our government any more than the UK could be blamed for border controls imposed by the EU at the Irish border because we didn't have a trade deal with them. There's talk of the UK breaking the Good Friday agreement, but actually it will be the EU putting up the barriers and closing that border, not us, if it happens. Boris would just leave the border open and arrange a more reasonable system for dealing with the trade issue if the EU would only agree to it. Our main concern with the Irish border is that even now it is an easy route into the UK used by illegal immigrants. Instead of risking their lives in tiny dinghies crossing the channel the smart ones go to Ireland and cross the open border from the EU there. If immigration was a key factor in the Brexit referendum then that's something to be clamped down on anyway even if we don't leave.

Anyway, my angel and I are just setting the record straight with the government by voting for Brexit. We were never asked whether we wanted to join the EU, so obviously when we were asked whether we wanted to leave our attitude was "leave what? Something that we never joined in spirit?" For our own purposes we still measure things in miles, yards, feet and inches and pounds and ounces much as many of our generation do. I still think of temperatures in Fahrenheit and convert to that as well. The only referendum so far as I recollect was about joining the Common Market, which was just a trade deal without all the trappings of a federal Europe. The decisions not to adopt the Euro nor join the Schengen Area weren't made via a referendum either, not that we disagreed with them. How about the proposal to use Central European time right across Europe to make life a bit easier for businesses? How's that debate going lately? Wouldn't that be the last straw, the country that originated the concept of universal time not being able to use its own time zone, the one that started it all, GMT? Who cares about what the sun's doing in the sky when European unity is at stake? Actually we do, especially since we live so close to the meridian line at the very heart of the GMT zone. My DNA may be German and I may have learned their language at school but that doesn't mean that I have to pretend that I live there regardless of where the sun is.

No, Boris is right, that we should start with a clean slate and decide where we want to position ourselves in the world, just as we always have. It's in our nature. If that means temporarily not having a trade deal with the EU then that's a joint problem, not one-sided. Equally that doesn't mean that Trump can muscle in with his idea of a deal. We feel much the same about the USA, especially considering who they have chosen to represent them. A long time ago an American friend drew a parallel between Boris and Trump and I seriously disagreed with him. Trump is a one trick pony in comparison to Boris to my mind. Oh yes, by the way, there's still something called the Commonwealth around and it has sensible countries like Canada and Australia and us in it. Back in my childhood we were taught that that organisation was central to our existence, not any European alliance or the UN or NATO. Perhaps Ireland should join that to solve the border problem.


----------



## escorial

I'm a poor judge of character...water pistols at dawn


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## JustRob

escorial said:


> I'm a poor judge of character...water pistols at dawn



No point. It'll probably be raining.


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## escorial

Going to a book launch talk tomorrow by Mr Parkinson about his sequel to Liverpool on the brink


He will be discussing brexit


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## escorial

Just watched the TV debate..I think they should build a playschool at number 10


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## JustRob

escorial said:


> Just watched the TV debate..I think they should build a playschool at number 10



Haven't seen it yet but did record it and noticed in passing a short live portion with the sound turned off, which may be the best way to view it. Why did they put them on those high chairs, or was that also indicative of their childishness? If they'd been women then the sight might have been worth seeing, but the legs of men wearing suits aren't visually attractive. Also the chairs themselves had incredibly thin legs, which gave the impression that the men were hovering in the air. Maybe that was to signify that anyone able to sort out this mess should equally be able to levitate, let alone walk on water.


----------



## escorial

These people have so many people advising them on image,body posture...all that stuff an as soon as it kicks of it all goes out the window..you could have put them on any format and five men would carried on as they did...after their supporters start with he,won,he said...embarrassing to watch


----------



## Olly Buckle

JustRob said:


> t the legs of men wearing suits aren't visually attractive.


But probably a considerable improvement on the legs of the same men not wearing suits. Heard a bit on the radio driving home, a question from a schoolgirl about what they intended to do about the environmental issues. They all said they would put it at the centre of their policy, avoided making any commitment at all, and then bigged themselves up with no reference to it.

a politician is an arse upon which everybody has sat except a man, ee cummings


----------



## escorial

Florence of Arabia has gone
King Boris increases votes
Jeremy v Gove
Javis...will he carry on


----------



## escorial

King Boris closer to his coronation
JHunt will prob wallup him in the debates but it's not what the country chooses..it's what the Tory party members desire...


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## JustRob

Who leads the Conservative party and who is Prime Minister is apparently irrelevant when the key issue is that parliament is in a state of stalemate. All it is now apparently capable of doing is voting not to do things, which is not its purpose. Even when it asks us what to do it then votes not to do them. There have been demands in parliament to exclude the possibility of a no deal Brexit. In other words they even want to vote not to do nothing. If they won't agree to doing anything and won't agree to doing nothing either then what's left? 

In chess stalemate is just one way to cause a draw. Another is to repeat the same moves with the same results over and over. Well, I think we've already encountered that approach. No wonder the thought behind Brexit was to get our sovereignty back. At least a sovereign might just decide what to do. Someone said that currently we need another Winston Churchill, but what we actually need is a constitution that empowers such a person. First one must create the role and then find the person to fill it. Whoever is chosen as PM, if they aren't allowed to pursue their strategy then they will serve no useful purpose.


----------



## PiP

Love or hate her, Maggie Thatcher in her early days as PM would have got the job done. The men just don't seem to have the b****s


----------



## escorial

I thought EU was gonna fall over backwards to keep the UK in but they rallied and stuck to it...still think there is a danger once brexit happens a few cracks might appear..so how do the UK leave..I think now Maybot(hindsight)...kept the UK stuck with EU regs and over the years negotiated the country out was a sensible deal...so it's prob best to kiss the EU arse and say we'll take it...which could give time for a centerist party to evolve and replace one or both of the main two...


----------



## Amnesiac




----------



## escorial

Was going to African fest but the hustings was to much to watch later...Boris just finished an ian Dale was excellent at questions..for me he can sell snow to Eskimos but no substance ...


----------



## escorial

JH has just left the building...he ain't no celeb but what he delivered was detailed answers....


----------



## Ralph Rotten

Amnesiac said:


> View attachment 23958





He's not wrong.


----------



## escorial

Interesting the way Boris touched on drug taking.. promted about middle classes  breaking the law and county lines which is basically the same...I'm shocked how immagration has been so low on the agenda and that is because middle England has yet to feel threatened by it like county lines...JH handled cost cutting in the NHS with openess and his constant tirade on Corbin is a bit naff...


----------



## Ralph Rotten

I think they are playing down the immigration angle because that had been one of the debunked claims that led to the referendum in the first place. Proponents had flooded the net with claims that it would solve the UKs immigration problems, even though it will actually result in Britain shouldering the full bill for their own immigration policy enforcement. As part of the EU, they share some expensive resources (computers, databases, access...) but that all goes away with Brexit. 

Really, from across the pond, it seemed like immigration was the driving factor in voting to leave the EU. At this end I saw it in media and discussions all over the place. I was actually pretty surprised by the degree of the sentiment.


----------



## escorial

the Polish invasion...eastern European was massive and along with globalisation depressed working class wages and not middle class wages which has increased since austerity in the UK...Poland is doing just fine since joining the EU and fair deal...the working class in the UK don't travel abroad for jobs like the middle classes...they do when they have to..


----------



## JustRob

Jeremy Hunt strikes me as a regular procedural person who is likely to take us down the now familiar routes into the same dead end. In contrast Boris Johnson seems more likely to make a leap of faith that will get us somewhere else. Whether that will be a good place to be or not nobody can tell yet, but at least it will give us somewhere to go next.

In my working life I was frequently the leap of faith guy who often got the problem solved when the procedural guys couldn't and had given up, so I am naturally inclined to favour Boris's style. It's the same pantser versus planner issue that we encounter here in writing. There are situations that favour different approaches and so far the planners haven't got anywhere with Brexit, so maybe another one won't do any better. I think that visionaries may often showcase their more erratic side in an attempt to get their message over, but that doesn't mean that they are incompetent when it comes down to the associated planning aspects. Of course it is the _Conservative_ party, so perhaps visionary thinking isn't really their thing, but their thing doesn't seem to be doing them a lot of good at present anyway, as Boris observed I believe.


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## escorial

Keep what you have or try summit knew..how does one evaluate such a thing..if you ain't got a pot to piss in hold on if you feel you can do better than mum an dad..go for it..the BBC is the most middle class nationalised industry left


----------



## escorial

a pigeon is a rat with wings an a dove is a pigeon with PR


----------



## Kevin

escorial said:


> a pigeon is a rat with wings an a dove is a pigeon with PR


mm... Let's face it. There are differences. Yes, they're related, but doves don't crowd and crap all over everything. That's why.


----------



## ppsage

The most aptly titled thread at WF. Though perhaps it could use a colon.


----------



## escorial

catch the pigeon..catch the pigeon


----------



## Olly Buckle

escorial said:


> catch the pigeon..catch the pigeon


No, it's the collared doves. Before the EU they were in one corner of SW Europe, since the borders went down they have spread right across everywhere, and they are freeloaders. They mainly live off what they get off local bird tables, they don't forage. At least the British pigeons clear up the abandoned take-aways. Is it their fault that we eat foreign food that upsets their gut? You may complain about the result, but imagine last weeks take-away if it hadn't been eaten by a pigeon, and multiply that by as many as there are pigeons looking for them every day.

on the other hand,
https://www.google.co.uk/search?sou...0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0i131j0i10.tfXZC8N26X0


----------



## Kevin

OMG! I just realized how offensive 'clay pigeons' is.


----------



## Winston

Kevin said:


> OMG! I just realized how offensive 'clay pigeons' is.



_Pull!_


----------



## escorial

are pigeons working class...


----------



## JustRob

escorial said:


> are pigeons working class...



Actually they are rock doves. "Pigeons" is just their stage title. The smart ones broke away from their working class roots by forming pop groups and becoming famous, but surely someone living in Liverpool knows all about that.


----------



## escorial

Ducks are middle class....seagulls are upperclass...starlings are the underclass an sparrows are all cockneys


----------



## JustRob

Every morning we get crows expecting to be served breakfast in our garden.


----------



## escorial

Crows are aristocrats


----------



## escorial

so Boris had an argument with his gf an the press wanna know why...the hypocracy of it all an wehther he is fit for office is staggering...the mob wants a cleaner than white pm an the conservative party want to keep their jobs..this is why we have a royal family to show everyone how to live a just and decent life...


----------



## JustRob

In a TV interview Amber Rudd criticised Boris for not answering questions about his plans, but when at the end of the interview she was asked whether she was willing to be in the cabinet regardless of who the PM was she refused to answer. The pot calling the kettle black then.

Boris is also being criticised for being a gentleman and not discussing his girlfriend's private life. At least that is how he sees it and I have to agree with him as I would behave similarly. 

Are Conservative party members really influenced by silly games like this? Heaven help us if they are.


----------



## escorial

Sting saved the Amazon..Bono saved Africa...are their no pop stats left to save us.....


----------



## JustRob

escorial said:


> Sting saved the Amazon..Bono saved Africa...are their no pop stars left to save us.....




​


----------



## escorial

Ed Sheridan rocks


----------



## Olly Buckle

Did you mean the Hackney Gazette democracy reporter? Or is that your version of Ed Sheeran?


----------



## escorial

My England spelling is poor...


----------



## escorial

One of them polls reveals the country would prefer hunt over Boris but it's the blue bloods who will be choosing the next PM (private member)


----------



## escorial

If you Google Boris about buses you now get his hobby and not the financial fiasco on the buses....this country is on the brink an he might think and you that it's a bit of fun...


----------



## escorial

There is two candidates an only one winner but how many losers...it's only natural to want to keep your job or hold onto political values but does what's best for the country mean most...if you can say I'm all 3 then you are a politician....


----------



## JustRob

On BBC TV this morning they mentioned yet again when the _winner_ of the Tory leadership election would be announced. This made me think about that term "winner". Is the winner the one who gets the task of doing the job or the one who gets the kudos for offering but doesn't have to do it? "And the winner of the poisoned chalice is ..."

I am reminded of Ireland having won the Eurovision song contest so often and the fact that therefore they have also hosted it more than anyone else. There was an episode of the TV comedy series _Father Ted_ in which Ted and Dougal represented Ireland in the contest because Ireland didn't want to win yet again. Come to think of it, my angel and I watched the film _The Producers_ a few days ago, another story about losing to win.


----------



## escorial

The more social media grows than the more people are exposed for what they are...Orwell was more wrong than right in 1984...a few people will always dominate over the masses but the bubble of respectability an hypocricy is there for all to seek...why people are shocked by brexit is because they can't hide anymore behind religion or bankbalances to protect themselves..politicians an the proletariat...


----------



## escorial

Was the holywood film Twins filmed in salford


----------



## escorial

Corbin said they will block a no deal...maybe they should change their slogan

The party for the many and not the jew


----------



## Winston

escorial said:


> Corbin said they will block a no deal...maybe they should change their slogan
> 
> The party for the many and not the jew



Is Corbin an anti-Semite?  Really?  Shocking.


----------



## Olly Buckle

I think there is a deliberate confusion of the Jewish race and the Zionist, nationalist political movement created and fostered by the latter as a cover for its '67 invasion and subsequent colonisation of the Palestinian areas. For me the racist attitudes towards the Palestinian population, fostered by their government, of most Israelis is truly shocking. I fear that a similar fear of foreigners is being used to promote Brexit for similar reasons, the concentration of wealth and power into the hands of a few.


----------



## escorial

Corbin has denied it totally....these days you can't get politicians or anyone to sit down and discuss anything without a slanging match...I say again that social media has shown people for what they are and to me if I say summit one year I might change my mind the next but the UK is the country it's always been just a bit more revealing an so many can't cope......as for me I like to reveal my skeletons and hypocracy and have never liked the fuckarewe  tribe in africa


----------



## escorial

Some people live charmed life even with their trials and tribulations....the likes of Tony Benn who played at being a socialist an Micheal foot..now being a socialist is not about how much money you end up with but your values...I put corbyn in this category an while his ability to get a grip with this anti semitism has been poor ..I think he does not want to be PM and has found himself in this position because of so much luck and not what he expected...just my opinion but I think he is just like the other two..lived a charmed life an just played at the game of politics....


----------



## Ralph Rotten

So I see Boris is taking some heat for not defending the ambassador to the US like the other candidates did.
I suspect he was part of the leak, and did it to ingratiate himself, but it blew up in his face.
He shoulda defended the ambassador. The UK pays a lotta money for a frank assessment from their ambassadors.
It's not Darroch's fault that the Trump administration is utter chaos. That's Trump's fault.

Never trust politicians with bizarre hair or combovers.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Ralph Rotten said:


> Never trust politicians with bizarre hair or combovers.



It is a good rule that qualifications detract from the strength of a statement. In this case they also detract from the seriousness of the situation, to criticise a liar and adulterer aiming for a top position of a nuclear power because he has bizarre hair is trivialising to say the least. I would stick with 'Never trust politicians.'


----------



## JustRob

Olly Buckle said:


> I think there is a deliberate confusion of the Jewish race and the Zionist, nationalist political movement created and fostered by the latter as a cover for its '67 invasion and subsequent colonisation of the Palestinian areas. For me the racist attitudes towards the Palestinian population, fostered by their government, of most Israelis is truly shocking. I fear that a similar fear of foreigners is being used to promote Brexit for similar reasons, the concentration of wealth and power into the hands of a few.



The concept of anti-Semitism is apparently ill-defined as the IHRA definition accepted by both the UK and Israeli governments contains both a statement of the principle and a number of hypothetical examples of its application provided "as illustrations". For us writers this is clearly a case of telling and then showing as well because there was doubt about whether the telling was written well enough. Real laws are either clearly defined in themselves or else case law makes use of actual precedents that have been tried in a court and open to subsequent appeals. It seems strange that effectively fictional cases should be cited in the IHRA definition. A barrister in a British court would hardly cite something that he'd seen in a fictional TV series as a legal precedent to make his case.

The Green Party apparently haven't accepted the IHRA definition because they feel that it panders to Israel while the Labour Party for a while accepted the principle but adopted a modified set of examples. They then relented and adopted the whole thing in principle, but probably still don't really agree with the examples given "as illustrations" (as the formal definition words it).

 It's a fundamental principle that I spent many years in my employment  bringing to the attention of the staff there, that if people cannot  agree about the definition of a word then they should not use it in any  agreement or dispute. It's actually a common ploy in diplomacy to  devise agreements without agreeing the definitions of the words used. If the word isn't clearly defined then Brexit just means Brexit and anyone can claim to  support and achieve it according to their own definition. It is after  all just a made up word. All we can do is wait for the new PM, whoever that is, to show rather than tell. The fact that Boris isn't telling us much suggests that he would rather show us. Show, don't tell then. We can hardly fault him on that, can we?


----------



## epimetheus

JustRob said:


> The fact that Boris isn't telling us much suggests that he would rather show us. Show, don't tell then. We can hardly fault him on that, can we?



His track record as Foreign Minister and London Mayor suggest otherwise. Together with a complete misunderstanding of the GATT 24 WTO trading rules it doesn't suggest a coherent plan. 

I think Hunt will do a better job uniting the country - if nothing else he is just a less polarising personality. Regardless, whether the UK ultimately leaves or remains in the EU, we will now always be a fractured nation.


----------



## JustRob

epimetheus said:


> His track record as Foreign Minister and London Mayor suggest otherwise. Together with a complete misunderstanding of the GATT 24 WTO trading rules it doesn't suggest a coherent plan.
> 
> I think Hunt will do a better job uniting the country - if nothing else he is just a less polarising personality. Regardless, whether the UK ultimately leaves or remains in the EU, we will now always be a fractured nation.



A united country but a fractured nation? That seems a very fragile concept. Polarisation is the means by which parliament votes on what to do. MPs have to choose which lobby to enter, if either. The country is united in wanting them to settle the matter but at the moment they only vote against doing everything. They even object to prorogation because that would allow something to happen without their being able to stop it. They consider that to be unconstitutional, but so is parliament not doing its job by failing to decide what to do. Theresa May thought that the solution was to maintain balance and hence a semblance of unity but it didn't work. The other option is to create an imbalance by added polarisation in one direction and hence decide to do something positive. Whatever that is we will all deal with it in our own ways but we need that decision right now more than a semblance of unity.


----------



## epimetheus

Fractured in that in we remain, many people will be disenfranchised at the political elite for not honouring the vote, bolstering an authoritarian far right. If we leave, Scotland are much more likely to exit the Union (as are Gibraltar, but they're a very different case) and many people who consider themselves European will be disenfranchised - a few will leave the country. 

If we vote on Brexit again and we stay (as polls suggest we would), then leavers will forever rail against a perceived rigged system. The least destructive solution seems to be to call another general election and hope a government can muster sufficient support either to leave or remain (the Brexit party anticipate this and are preparing for it). But May tried that and it backfired then. The current deadlock in parliament in an accurate reflection of the ambivalence in UK society.


----------



## Ralph Rotten

Olly Buckle said:


> It is a good rule that qualifications detract from the strength of a statement. In this case they also detract from the seriousness of the situation, to criticise a liar and adulterer aiming for a top position of a nuclear power because he has bizarre hair is trivialising to say the least. I would stick with 'Never trust politicians.'




But it is not trivial; their hair speaks to the very nature of their character.
Think about this: Trump is such a fraud that he thinks no one notices his horrible combover. Even with his hair he is lying to you, he is a poseur pretending to have a full head of hair.

So when I made that comment, I was very much serious. Boris actually thinks he is fooling people with that comb-forward of his. Hence, even his very appearance is *a departure from the truth* (a fancy legal term for lying.)
At minimum it shows an unhealthy level of hubris.


----------



## Aquilo

JustRob said:


> On BBC TV this morning they mentioned yet again when the _winner_ of the Tory leadership election would be announced. This made me think about that term "winner". Is the winner the one who gets the task of doing the job or the one who gets the kudos for offering but doesn't have to do it? "And the winner of the poisoned chalice is.



Have you listened to Pie? They need this guy on the BBC when it comes to Hunt, Boris, and Brexit...

[video=youtube;R-CIggoU4VM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-CIggoU4VM[/video]


----------



## Olly Buckle

I think it is you lot the BBC should employ, this is by far the most entertaining discussion of Brexit I have seen.

By the way Rob, 'Just' a made up word? All words are made up, even ones like 'Moo' and 'Boom' (why are they on automatic peas?)


----------



## Kevin

Ralph Rotten said:


> So I see Boris is taking some heat for not defending the ambassador to the US like the other candidates did.
> I suspect he was part of the leak, and did it to ingratiate himself, but it blew up in his face.
> He shoulda defended the ambassador. The UK pays a lotta money for a frank assessment from their ambassadors.
> It's not Darroch's fault that the Trump administration is utter chaos. That's Trump's fault.
> 
> Never trust politicians with bizarre hair or combovers.


what politicians should we trust? I see glad handing smiley types that tell you how they're looking into this, studying the issue. Obfuscators, glad-handers, slick operators , never commit, re-elect , re-elect, re-elect. I love how trump farts right at the table in front of the cameras. There he is naked, no clothes, _but these are the best no clothes, the greatest no clothes you've never seen- brrrrraaappp!! _


----------



## JustRob

Olly Buckle said:


> I think it is you lot the BBC should employ, this is by far the most entertaining discussion of Brexit I have seen.
> 
> By the way Rob, 'Just' a made up word? All words are made up, even ones like 'Moo' and 'Boom' (why are they on automatic peas?)



It's _just_ a made up word in the sense that virtually nobody can put a definite meaning to it. "Br-exit" implies that Britain will exit the EU but possibly only a bit leaving the country "EU-itish". That's what an Irish backstop is, stopping the back end of the country leaving. In other words they don't want us to back out of the EU at all, just stick our head out and claim that we've left. One of our cats does that, sits on the window sill leaning out of the open window thinking "I'm outside now," while actually not risking going all the way out.


----------



## Olly Buckle

As I understood the people who wanted to leave wanted right out, and the people who wanted to stay wanted to get stuck in and make the EU work. But what you are saying is the politicians are not aiming to do either, they are not out to 'Fulfil the will of the British people.' but to do something nobody but them wants. I guess that's pretty normal.


----------



## epimetheus

Olly Buckle said:


> As I understood the people who wanted to leave wanted right out, and the people who wanted to stay wanted to get stuck in and make the EU work. But what you are saying is the politicians are not aiming to do either, they are not out to 'Fulfil the will of the British people.' but to do something nobody but them wants. I guess that's pretty normal.



That's the nature of compromise though, isn't it? A brexit with some kind of deal is the most viable way of keeping the populace content. I don't think hardline Brexiteers understand the degree of antipathy towards no deal in large swathes in the UK.


----------



## Olly Buckle

epimetheus said:


> A brexit with some kind of deal is the most viable way of keeping the populace content.



That is the exact opposite of what I am saying, it does not satisfy anyone. I voted remain because the origins of the EU in 1946 were aimed at preventing a repetition of the European war that had just occurred, making money didn't come into my reckoning. In such a situation one remains part of the organisation and works to improve and reform it. Leaving but not leaving just means that the rich can laugh at legislation protecting ordinary people, whilst getting richer. 

Money is what talks, bet your sweet life that Brexit will mean its distribution gets even more un-even. If I were determined to stop it I would be mounting a campaign of something like arson along the lines the suffragettes used. Cost the insurance companies a few hundred million and suddenly they will be on your side and the whole thing will collapse. I am certainly not advocating such a thing, but look at the campaigns that were run, they were all about money. The social benefits of a politically stable Europe mean nothing to the tiny minority who own the vast majority of everything, money talks, you can't pay them, but you can cost them.

Something that has occurred to me several times. If one wrote a novel about a group adopting such tactics would you be open to prosecution for 'Promoting terrorism'. Shame if you could, it could be a good discussion of how people are politically groomed as well as several other aspects.


----------



## Ralph Rotten

Rob's prolly right.
Brexit will chew Boris up like farm machinery, and maybe even the guy who comes after him.
He will push a no-deal exit, and the billionaires will stomp on his testicles with golf shoes because it will cost them $$$/
In the end they will find some solution that LOOKS like a Brexit, but the cat will actually still be inside of the apartment.

Since immigration was the primary driving force, why not kill Brexit, and simply get an EU exemption that lets you control your own borders? Have the best of both worlds?


----------



## escorial

Wen will this circus end....


----------



## PiP

escorial said:


> Wen will this circus end....



God knows, but the UK is the laughing stock of Europe. All my friends (German, Dutch, French and Portuguese) think the UK is crazy.

What do Boris and Trump have in common?


----------



## escorial

I'm worried...I think he could be the last UK prime minister....what they have in common is no shame...


----------



## PiP

Wrong - bad hair days.

I am seriously worried for our future. Our daughter has already taken French citizenship and now uses a French passport instead of English.


----------



## escorial

The Tories have to now agree as the party of brexit and not fall back on a weak labour party who have facilitated this mess....I'm staying put but I'm not upwardly mobile


----------



## epimetheus

I've had to put my evacuation plans on hold due to a family illness, but once that resolves I will be moving to Taiwan. Two years at tops.


----------



## Ralph Rotten

Putin did this, same as he helped Trump.
He wanted to cause maximum disruption to the US and the EU, and I gotta say; he has succeeded.
I say we ship Justin Bieber to Russia.
That'd learn him!


----------



## escorial

Tsar Putin...Trump's alter ego..


----------



## The Green Shield

I'm not sure Putin had a hand in this, but I don't doubt he's pleased.


----------



## JustRob

I'm interested to see whether Boris bothers to talk to the EU initially or instead talks to other countries about trade deals before asking the EU what their offer is. The actual issue is not really about trade with the EU at all but with other countries surely. The EU have made their stance so clear that there doesn't appear to be any point in talking to them just now. We'll just have to wait and see, won't we?

The British Isles are located on the European continental shelf. Does the EU believe that it can really leave us on the shelf now or are we still too useful to them for that? For example they really do want to keep access to all our fishing waters. It isn't just about trade.


----------



## escorial

It all comes down to money...


----------



## escorial

What a speech.....I've got a plan...rambling,rhetoric with no detail..promise is no garuntee


.


----------



## escorial

...hope tersesa stays soba tonite...an not swagger down Whitehall pissed shouting up at windows...boris


.


----------



## escorial

No comment from corbyn yet...the guy who likes his political life and seems to me dumbfounded he ended up leader and doesn't want to be PM...Jo commented but for someone who was part of austerity is just like the rest..two faced...


----------



## escorial

Failing Grayling has resigned..ha,ha,ha....I thought he'd end up chancellor


----------



## escorial

Looking on eBay for a boat..where can I go...any offers


----------



## Phil Istine

I'm writing a short (hopefully, funny) story about this stuff, centred around the proposed leaving date of Halloween.

I'm totally ripping the piss out of some of the main players.


----------



## JustRob

escorial said:


> What a speech.....I've got a plan...rambling,rhetoric with no detail..promise is no garuntee.



Well at least it was probably his own rhetoric as it seems unlikely that he needs speech-writers. When starting out as PM in her speech Maggie Thatcher resorted to using the rhetoric of Francis of Assisi that she apparently just happened to remember (rather than having practised it for hours ... maybe). At least she did identify the source of the quotation.


----------



## escorial

Politics is bankrupt in the UK...civil war is coming...

.


----------



## escorial

It's ok picture of Boris an queen at the Queen's council house palace with a Dyson fan in the living room...phew..everything is back to normal..wonder whether Boris will move his bird into number 10...


----------



## Ralph Rotten

I don't think Boris will have the option of dealing directly with the EU member nations...otherwise Theresa woulda done it already.
The EU is feeling a little like a woman spurned, and hell hath no fury like...
So they will likely not crack, and stand united.

I still say that Brexit will chew Boris up like farm machinery.
Especially if he tries to go with a no-deal Brexit.


----------



## escorial

Boris will scream an shout.. blame everyone an drag anyone down with him....a guy who would give up his friends life to save his own...
.


----------



## Phil Istine

Selecting a cabinet comprising only people who agree with him is a very unhealthy way forward and does not change the maths within Parliament.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Do you think we will get a compilation of bits with Paul Merton and Ian Hislop ripping Boris to pieces on old 'Have I got news for you?'. That I would watch.


----------



## escorial

When will greyling be knighted for his services to the UK


----------



## JustRob

escorial said:


> Politics is bankrupt in the UK...civil war is coming...
> 
> .



Well that will make a refreshing change from football, cricket, tennis ...

Our next door neighbour Leo, who died a couple of weeks ago, spent his life studying the American Civil War when he wasn't playing jazz. Apparently it was more interesting to him than any of our history even though our equivalent did involve beheading the reigning monarch. For some reason the US president was killed _after_ the war there. No doubt Leo could have explained that. It's evidently time that we made some more interesting history.

P.S.
As PM does Boris get an official bike with security outriders, or maybe a tandem? Maybe even a Goodies style three person bike with him between two security men. That would be more Boris's style. Also I'm pleased to see that Larry the number ten cat kept his job under Boris.


----------



## escorial

Once the jocks off their pop the troubles will kick off an the Welsh will..not sure what they do...so that leaves the north v south...northerners with tools from the alotment an soft Southerners with their golf clubs..


----------



## epimetheus

Never have been able to figure out the Welsh. Given they are the remnants of Celtic Britain you'd think they have more national pride, but they seem too well subjugated. Cornwall also has a small Celtic based Independence movement, but too tiny to effect change. Gibraltar will be interesting - 96% voted to stay in EU and now they're being taken out - I could see them eventually leaving the Union depending on how things go. Scotland is a case of when not if - that was the case before Brexit, but this will speed things up a few decades. Even before Brexit you would occasionally hear about a London independence movement (the argument being imagine how rich London would be if it didn't have to subsidise the rest of the UK), but i'm sure that will come to nothing. Northern Ireland's just going to be a mess - everyone knows it, no one knows what to do about it. Interesting times for sure.


----------



## escorial

the Welsh language is easy to pick up..you just say stuff back to front...example

English...put your foot in the shoe

Welsh...put your shoe in the foot...


----------



## Kevin

JustRob said:


> Well that will make a refreshing change from football, cricket, tennis ...
> 
> Our next door neighbour Leo, who died a couple of weeks ago, spent his life studying the American Civil War when he wasn't playing jazz. Apparently it was more interesting to him than any of our history even though our equivalent did involve beheading the reigning monarch. For some reason the US president was killed _after_ the war there. No doubt Leo could have explained that.


 killed after the war? The explanation was simple. It was the luminarians / builder bergs. And , uhm, chemtrails. It's no coincidence that Kennedy was shot shortly thereafter the chemtrails first appeared, over Nazi Germany no less, and the grays ( gray aliens)- Same color as the rebel's uniforms ( confederate gray; gray again) mm? You can see it, right? Storm 51, right before 52 , b52, Bigfoot...yeti, Sasquatch, taller, and taller, basketballer...


----------



## JustRob

Kevin said:


> killed after the war? The explanation was simple. It was the luminarians / builder bergs. And , uhm, chemtrails. It's no coincidence that Kennedy was shot shortly thereafter the chemtrails first appeared, over Nazi Germany no less, and the grays ( gray aliens)- Same color as the rebel's uniforms ( confederate gray; gray again) mm? You can see it, right? Storm 51, right before 52 , b52, Bigfoot...yeti, Sasquatch, taller, and taller, basketballer...



Because of the remarkable holistic nature of space, time and reality I can of course provide a timely response to your observations. Apart from currently having my laptop on my lap to type this, nestling at my side ready to be read is the second volume of the British partwork _The Unexplained: Mysteries of Mind Space and Time_. The full set of thirteen volumes previously belonged to our aforementioned neighbour Leo, who apart from his interests in the American Civil War and jazz had many books on strange phenomena, especially aliens and UFOs. He himself reported two UFOs circling our houses and photographed the second, although there is virtually no detail in the picture. Hence if LGM were in any way involved in the "War of Northern Aggression", as the human greys apparently called it, (I have that from an active Confederate battle re-enactor in the US.) then I suspect that he would have known.


----------



## escorial

For a few years I've bought the new European newspaper and yesterday I picked up this week's issue an looked at my fav columnist but I just couldn't be bothered anymore..this morning no paper with my coffee an a strange feeling of if I disengage will I become a.....


----------



## JustRob

I hear that Boris has already talked to Trump about a possible trade deal. Is he just covering all his options or putting pressure on the EU to negotiate? It's all about strategy.


----------



## Phil Istine

escorial said:


> the Welsh language is easy to pick up..you just say stuff back to front...example
> 
> English...put your foot in the shoe
> 
> Welsh...put your shoe in the foot...



If you try to clear your throat when pronouncing LL it should sound about right.


----------



## escorial

Are the Welsh happy with their lot..


----------



## epimetheus

JustRob said:


> Is he just covering all his options or putting pressure on the EU to negotiate? It's all about strategy.



It's technically illegal if they are formally discussing it, but it makes sense to have peripheral discussions. It'll be interesting, the US have said already said they'd want access to the NHS with Johnson saying that's a red line, so it won't be as smooth as these leaders are making out. The quickest trade deals take ~18 months to negotiate and ~4 years to implement. As the UK would be desperate after the realities of no-deal sink in and Trump can play hardball (whatever else he is, he can negotiate), likely the UK will drop standards on many things to keep the US happy.


----------



## JustRob

Phil Istine said:


> If you try to clear your throat when pronouncing LL it should sound about right.



That's the old joke about pronouncing the Welsh "LL" as in "Ccc...ardiff".



epimetheus said:


> It's technically illegal if they are formally discussing it, but it makes sense to have peripheral discussions. It'll be interesting, the US have said already said they'd want access to the NHS with Johnson saying that's a red line, so it won't be as smooth as these leaders are making out. The quickest trade deals take ~18 months to negotiate and ~4 years to implement. As the UK would be desperate after the realities of no-deal sink in and Trump can play hardball (whatever else he is, he can negotiate), likely the UK will drop standards on many things to keep the US happy.



I think they have only been discussing having discussions when it becomes possible. Astute people observe that, whatever Boris may appear to be, he is actually very clever. I have no idea whether that also applies to Donald.


----------



## epimetheus

JustRob said:


> Astute people observe that, whatever Boris may appear to be, he is actually very clever. I have no idea whether that also applies to Donald.



They are both surrounded by clever people too. Whether they listen to them is another question.


----------



## escorial

We're is Boris borrowing


----------



## escorial

When the government leave without a deal
..what next...an then spend the years a head making what deals or never speak again...the language is so childlike and embarrassing...


----------



## Phil Istine

When I hear politicians like some of ours in the UK, I start understanding why many Americans prefer to carry guns.


----------



## escorial

Since the Advent of social media the soundbite is the norm... politicians have always avoided clarity because their position depends on it an not for the good of the electorate...today's political speak has little substance but I believe that the UK gets the politicians it wants...


----------



## Princesisto

Yes and the week after the 1975 referendum, Prime Minister Wilson said that he would need some "_eclaircissentent_" of the Conservative Party leader's (Mrs Thatcher's) position on the meaning of the referendum. Ever heard French with a Yorkshire accent? Also, "_eclaircissesentent" _is not a word in French. He was probably trying to say "_eclaircissement_" (clarification). They should have known that they were posing as Europeans and in the wrong place.

General de Gaulle, as President of France in the 1960s, replying to the original application of Britain to join the Common Market in 1961, always said that it was wrongheaded, not because Britain was not a world power and economic power equal to France, but because the British were not Europeans. Their culture was totally different. If skeletons could smile (more than sardonically), I am sure that the great General's would have been smiling for three years now and will be cock-a-hoop on 31 October 2019. It took the British fifty years to understand what he tried to tell them in the 1960s.

The great Empire, on which the sun never set, has been a colony of the ever-more-centralising European Union for almost 30 years now. As a non-British, non-European observer, educated in Britain, who respects Britain very much, I think I can, like Mr Trump, admire the courage of the British people in declaring independence. Whether you believe that they are right or wrong - and, as a trained economist, I can certainly understand the arguments and projections on both sides - the sleeping lions are awake and roaring tonight. If Mr Johnson can harness that spirit of independence and let it drive the nation forward to become the independent trading partner of the world, Britain will prosper outside Europe. As it looks like that decision has been made, may it be so!


----------



## escorial

Tories down to majority of of one..will Boris blame everyone an stamp...I tried but you were all against me...hope corbyn goes now


----------



## JustRob

So Boris intends to prorogue parliament in preparation for a new Queen's speech. Ho, ho. Those opposed to this are claiming that it is a purely political and undemocratic move, but most activities in parliament probably are. They would prefer to have another referendum, but with three choices so that the leave votes are split and remainers appear to be in the majority. That is exactly how our simply majority electoral system enables a minority to gain control of the country, so parliament is normally itself formed by an undemocratic process and it just couldn't cope with the blatant democracy of the original simple leave/remain referendum. Corbyn was equally hoping to become PM by forming an emergency government, hardly democratic in itself, but that fell flat, so I don't know what they are complaining about. 

No doubt the EU are upset that Boris introduced monarchy as part of the process when most of them no longer have monarchs. The UK doesn't have a written constitution, so unusual situations have to be negotiated. In contrast the EU doesn't appear keen on negotiating at present.


----------



## escorial

Could a moderator block any more post on this thread until I decide what's best..thanks


----------



## Aquilo

escorial said:


> Could a moderator block any more post on this thread until I decide what's best..thanks



The debate, in general, has certainly just gotten complicated, escorial. Until it's decided whether it's blocked and stopped...


Trump's tweet on it today:


"Would be very hard for Jeremy Corbyn, the leader of Britain’s Labour Party, to seek a no-confidence vote against New Prime Minister Boris Johnson, especially in light of the fact that Boris is exactly what the U.K. has been looking for, & will prove to be “a great one!” Love U.K."


Don't love you, mate. I'd much rather hear the truth from the psychologist's quote below. And you won't get the from Trump or Boris.




> Brexit is essentially a coup pulled off at the behest of tax-dodging corporations and misanthropic investors.
> Their only concern for ‘taking back control’ is to rid their own businesses of EU tax laws, financial regulations and employee rights.
> They have been systematically misleading the British public to hate the EU through a constant supply of anti-EU propaganda and lies. [Boris and his Kipper scandal]
> They are sponsoring their friends and collaborators in the Conservative Party to bring about a no-deal Brexit.
> They are on course to instigate social and economic changes that will turn the UK (or what’s left of it) into an enormous cash cow for their own self-interest.
> They are abusing democracy to create a plutocracy.


 Barry McGuinnes. 

If the Queen listens and agrees with Boris 'lying through my goddamn  kipper packaging teeth' Johnson, we'll know what's feeding her decision, and it won't be anything to do with 'what the people want' in my honest humbles.


----------



## escorial

Who is the Queen of WF...


----------



## epimetheus

JustRob said:


> So Boris intends to prorogue parliament in preparation for a new Queen's speech. Ho, ho. Those opposed to this are claiming that it is a purely political and undemocratic move, but most activities in parliament probably are. They would prefer to have another referendum, but with three choices so that the leave votes are split and remainers appear to be in the majority. That is exactly how our simply majority electoral system enables a minority to gain control of the country, so parliament is normally itself formed by an undemocratic process and it just couldn't cope with the blatant democracy of the original simple leave/remain referendum. Corbyn was equally hoping to become PM by forming an emergency government, hardly democratic in itself, but that fell flat, so I don't know what they are complaining about.
> 
> No doubt the EU are upset that Boris introduced monarchy as part of the process when most of them no longer have monarchs. The UK doesn't have a written constitution, so unusual situations have to be negotiated. In contrast the EU doesn't appear keen on negotiating at present.



I thought Brexit was about restoring the supremacy parliamentary sovereignty in the UK. Obviously not if the first act of the government is to effectively suspend parliament.

Democracy is supposed to be about compromise, not all or nothing. 17.4  out of 66 million voted to leave against 16.1 million who wanted to stay - fair enough, we leave (who knows what the ~20 million who didn't vote would have prefered). But it's reasonable to compromise, especially given how close the results were and how much disruption a no deal will have. If hardline line brexiteers had voted for May's compromise we would already have left the EU and the same can be said for hardline remainers. A no deal brexit will be a win for a loud minority. I don't think it a coincidence that the FTSE 100 companies have risen on news of a more likely no deal - they hold significant amounts of foreign currency. The rich will not have to worry so much about a no deal.

Since people are championing direct referendums no in the UK, how about one for no deal vs deal (but leave either way)?


----------



## The Green Shield

I read on BBC that Corbyn and co will start making attempts to stop Boris (going as far as calling for a vote of no confidence) the minute they convene next Tuesday. So there's still some hope for those not looking forward to a no-deal crash out?

There's also a possibility that the EU might force Boris to accept a deal?


----------



## epimetheus

The Green Shield said:


> I read on BBC that Corbyn and co will start making attempts to stop Boris (going as far as calling for a vote of no confidence) the minute they convene next Tuesday. So there's still some hope for those not looking forward to a no-deal crash out?
> 
> There's also a possibility that the EU might force Boris to accept a deal?



If Corbyn insists on leading an interim government I don't think there will be enough parliamentary support for it to succeed. The EU cannot force a deal nor can they negotiate on the Irish backstop - leaving one of their members in the lurch to pacify the UK is a non-starter.


----------



## JustRob

Digressing from Brexit for the moment, could Donald Trump choose to prorogue the House of Representatives for four weeks? No doubt if he could he would. Of course, even Her Majesty only does it on advice from our Prime Minister.


----------



## Aquilo

escorial said:


> Who is the Queen of WF...



? Johnson had to ask the Queen to suspend (prorogue) parliament today.  She's agreed. No surprise there... none at all. Here's hoping the other parties can call him out on this bullshit.


----------



## Aquilo

JustRob said:


> Digressing from Brexit for the moment, could Donald Trump choose to prorogue the House of Representatives for four weeks? No doubt if he could he would. Of course, even Her Majesty only does it on advice from our Prime Minister.



I dunno... when's the next golfing championship due? We'll find out then. He seems to suspend a day month as is...


----------



## Winston

Boris is being a bad, naughty boy.  
He even got The Queen involved in his shenanigans.  
I just love y'alls parliamentary stuff.  It's like Downton Abbey meets House of Cards.


----------



## Aquilo

Winston said:


> Boris is being a bad, naughty boy.
> He even got The Queen involved in his shenanigans.
> I just love y'alls parliamentary stuff. It's like Downton Abbey meets House of Cards.



Aye, with us peasants ever revolting or being revolting enough for the upper class to cover delicate noses with hankies. Only they all seem to forget there's a clash of class via the ass still: all their shite ends up stinking out the same drainage system as ours, and we know a bad one when we smell it.

The thing is, the Queen can't say no, not unless it constitutes as treason. Boris knows that, we know that: she's got her hands tied in legal matters by the Magna Carta when it comes to interfering with parliamentary decisions, but that's a poor goddamn excuse used throughout any country's history: 'I'm just doing my job". If she can't have her say, she shouldn't have been asked, not when Boris has been caught out lying about the EU and forwarding a hate campaign. His shite should have been handled back in parliament. So Boris is just playing downright dirty, all to forward his anti-EU hate campaign and dodge those tax regulations the EU have in place.

Just for once, just once -- I wanted her to say "Get lost, Trump. I mean, Boris. I meant to say Boris."


----------



## escorial

Would the Queen or King of WF speak up


----------



## escorial

This thread will be closed mid October.....


----------



## JustRob

As I understand it the prorogation was issued by the queen-in-council, as she is known when acting on the royal prerogative, following a meeting of the privy council which, despite having hundreds of members, only needs three members present to form a quorum. Whether any other members of the council opposed to the prorogation could have attended to argue against the action I don't know, but presumably that would have been the time to do it. Equivalents of the privy council have existed since Anglo-Saxon times as the monarch has always acted following taking its advice, even though he or she might not have heeded it in earlier times. It is probably inaccurate to say that Boris was acting alone in making the decision to prorogate as legally it was the ruling of the queen-in-council, where the council referred to cannot be just one person.


----------



## Ralph Rotten

Aquilo said:


> The thing is, the Queen can't say no, not unless it constitutes as treason. "




But can't she pull the plug on Boris himself? To become PM he had to have her permission...cannot that permission be rescinded?
She is the Queen.


----------



## JustRob

Ralph Rotten said:


> But can't she pull the plug on Boris himself? To become PM he had to have her permission...cannot that permission be rescinded?
> She is the Queen.



Not by her personally according to protocol. She executes the royal prerogative, which includes choosing ministers, as the queen-in-council (her official title at such times) during meetings of the privy council. To get rid of Boris she would have to do it on advice from others in the council during a meeting, but as the PM is her chief advisor who would then advise her to do that?


----------



## The Green Shield

Ralph Rotton: She is the Queen, yes, but she doesn’t have absolute power. Past conflicts (like the English Civil War if I’m not mistaken) made that rather clear.  She has powers, but they are checked. It also helps that the Royal Family tends to stay out of politics in most cases, at least that’s what I’ve heard from my British friends. They’ll intervene if they have to, but it’s mostly letting Parliament do whatever it is they do. 

And on a side-note, I don’t think the Queen picks the PM, that’s the job of the MP folks. Now, granted, she could tell him to screw off and appoint a different PM buuut then we reach JustRob’s point.

JustRob: I honestly didn’t know that the PM was her chief advisor. I feel silly now, as it seems so obvious. Yeah, logically Boris isn’t gonna go up to her and say, “Hey, um, I kind of suck at this so...can you appoint someone else, please?” And I doubt Boris would be happy about the other advisors trying to side-step him


----------



## Ralph Rotten

"On top of that, the Conservatives are a minority government, in power thanks only to a fragile alliance with an extremist Northern Irish party. The sense of legitimacy—that the ruling party represents, albeit imperfectly, the collective will of the people—has thus been badly eroded."

So when a no-deal Brexit spells a hard-border thru the middle of Ireland, and the entire country dumps the UK, will the conservatives have any air left in them?
Seems like even tho the Queen has no actual power, if she openly opposed Boris or Brexit, they would likely tank.

I wonder how the Queen stands on Brexit.


----------



## Phil Istine

Prorogation is a normal part of Parliamentary procedure.  Usually it would happen about once a year for the government to set out its agenda via the Queen's speech.  This session has gone on a lot longer than normal, because the government has a wafer-thin majority (it only exists at all due to support from a minor party of young-earthers).  With the addition of a new Prime Minister, there is an argument that this is the time for prorogation.  However, everyone knows the _real_ reason is to stifle debate about Brexit.  We know that government ministers are talking bollocks, the Queen knows they're talking bollocks, and _they_ know they're talking bollocks.
You see, one thing that is far worse than misusing Parliamentary procedure is to take people for idiots.  That is both annoying and frustrating.  I would actually have a modicum of respect if they came out with something like: "We have decided to prorogue Parliament in order for the Queen to set out the government's agenda.  We also feel that there is too much indecision around Brexit, so we wish to force a Parliamentary decision on the matter."  The bollocks and the bullshit are far worse that the actions.


----------



## Phil Istine

Ralph Rotten said:


> I wonder how the Queen stands on Brexit.



It's possible that even the Queen's husband and personal advisers aren't privy to that information.  For her to express an opinion on this issue could be the beginning of the DK's (Disunited Kingdom) journey away from being a monarchy.


----------



## dither

Phil Istine said:


> Prorogation is a normal part of Parliamentary procedure.  Usually it would happen about once a year for the government to set out its agenda via the Queen's speech.  This session has gone on a lot longer than normal, because the government has a wafer-thin majority (it only exists at all due to support from a minor party of young-earthers).  With the addition of a new Prime Minister, there is an argument that this is the time for prorogation.  However, everyone knows the _real_ reason is to stifle debate about Brexit.  We know that government ministers are talking bollocks, the Queen knows they're talking bollocks, and _they_ know they're talking bollocks.
> You see, one thing that is far worse than misusing Parliamentary procedure is to take people for idiots.  That is both annoying and frustrating.  I would actually have a modicum of respect if they came out with something like: "We have decided to prorogue Parliament in order for the Queen to set out the government's agenda.  We also feel that there is too much indecision around Brexit, so we wish to force a Parliamentary decision on the matter."  The bollocks and the bullshit are far worse that the actions.



Very well put, I totally agree. It's sad that something so important has become almost farcical. How must the rest of the world view our situation ? It's embarrassing.


----------



## JustRob

Phil Istine said:


> With the addition of a new Prime Minister, there is an argument that this is the time for prorogation.  However, everyone knows the _real_ reason is to stifle debate about Brexit.  We know that government ministers are talking bollocks, the Queen knows they're talking bollocks, and _they_ know they're talking bollocks.



Why have people suddenly stopped believing in coincidences? For years I have been claiming that my novel was inspired by my experiences _after_ I wrote it and people have been saying that these parallels were simply coincidences. Now to me it is blatantly obvious that they could not just have been coincidences, but then why are people now saying that it is blatantly obvious that prorogation around the time of Brexit is not a coincidence? This is Bayesian logic at work, the principle that people are inclined to carry on believing what they previously did regardless of the weight of evidence to the contrary.

So, changing the subject somewhat but maybe staying on the subject of impending disasters, which is more likely, Corbyn ever becoming Prime Minister or Trump ever getting a second term in office?

While on the subject of imminent disasters and setting aside trivial issues like Brexit and such, our thoughts are with those in the path of hurricane Dorian. At least our weather here doesn't depend on EU membership, so far as I know, that is. Will there be WTO rules covering us importing weather from Europe after we leave? Never mind; most of it we get second hand from America anyway.


----------



## Phil Istine

JustRob said:


> Why have people suddenly stopped believing in coincidences? For years I have been claiming that my novel was inspired by my experiences _after_ I wrote it and people have been saying that these parallels were simply coincidences. Now to me it is blatantly obvious that they could not just have been coincidences, but then why are people now saying that it is blatantly obvious that prorogation around the time of Brexit is not a coincidence? This is Bayesian logic at work, the principle that people are inclined to carry on believing what they previously did regardless of the weight of evidence to the contrary.
> 
> So, changing the subject somewhat but maybe staying on the subject of impending disasters, which is more likely, Corbyn ever becoming Prime Minister or Trump ever getting a second term in office?
> 
> While on the subject of imminent disasters and setting aside trivial issues like Brexit and such, our thoughts are with those in the path of hurricane Dorian. At least our weather here doesn't depend on EU membership, so far as I know, that is. Will there be WTO rules covering us importing weather from Europe after we leave? Never mind; most of it we get second hand from America anyway.



Indeed, this recent spate of global warming has nothing to do with all the hot air emanating from the White House and Westminster.  It's complete coincidence.


----------



## The Green Shield

JustRob said:


> Why have people suddenly stopped believing in coincidences? For years I have been claiming that my novel was inspired by my experiences _after_ I wrote it and people have been saying that these parallels were simply coincidences. Now to me it is blatantly obvious that they could not just have been coincidences, but then why are people now saying that it is blatantly obvious that prorogation around the time of Brexit is not a coincidence? This is Bayesian logic at work, the principle that people are inclined to carry on believing what they previously did regardless of the weight of evidence to the contrary.
> 
> So, changing the subject somewhat but maybe staying on the subject of impending disasters, which is more likely, Corbyn ever becoming Prime Minister or Trump ever getting a second term in office?
> 
> While on the subject of imminent disasters and setting aside trivial issues like Brexit and such, our thoughts are with those in the path of hurricane Dorian. At least our weather here doesn't depend on EU membership, so far as I know, that is. Will there be WTO rules covering us importing weather from Europe after we leave? Never mind; most of it we get second hand from America anyway.


I'm not sure about Brexit, but I'm sad to say that unless the Democratic National Convention plays it smart, Trump is going to win again. 

If there's some comfort, at least we know there's a hurricane coming. Imagine being alive just 100 years ago and not knowing there was a super strong storm coming until it was literally too late to do anything about it. Galveston, Texas remembers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1900_Galveston_hurricane) that part. 

Getting back to Brexit, there is still a chance. The MPs are, as I understand, are going to do everything in their power to stop Boris, even if they must defy the Queen to do so.


----------



## Princesisto

*Her Most Gracious Majesty, the Queen of Writing Forums And Associated Dependencies*



escorial said:


> Who is the Queen of WF...



PiP of course, innit?


----------



## Princesisto

escorial said:


> This thread will be closed mid October.....



Escorial is proroguing the thread?

I am rather enjoying this, finding it most educational and people are behaving well and not doing trolling and flame wars and things.

And the issue is still alive, I humbly submit, unless and until Britain actually Exits.

Now maybe that means that the thread must continue at least to 31 October 2019 but even then, we cannot say that with certainty now.

So, whom do we put the vote of no-confidence to, and in? 

Queen PiP please address us!


----------



## JustRob

There is no truth in the rumour that Boris has been seen carrying barrels of gunpowder into the cellars under the Houses of Parliament, so far as I know.


----------



## escorial

Changed my mind about blocking the thread but there are a few posters on here I might  ban


----------



## JustRob

escorial said:


> Changed my mind about blocking the thread but there are a few posters on here I might  ban



What, for defying the party whip like Boris has with his members? Are you that alike then?

Seeing Corbyn speaking reminds me of the thread here somewhere about "He was the kind of man who ...".  In Jeremy's case I can imagine that he could well be the kind of man who never needs to finish a bedtime story.


----------



## escorial

No whip cream for you...JR


----------



## JustRob

Show me to the Brexit then ... [SIZE=+1]_Please!_[/SIZE]


----------



## escorial

Just text me brother and he can't make it tomorrow because he's digging a ditch


----------



## Mish

Has anyone read this short story called "The Great Democracy"? I think it explains everything Brexit, Whitehouse, Westminster and whatnot. 

https://www.writingforums.com/threads/183269-The-Great-Democracy-(3-676-words)


----------



## escorial

When Boris was replying to questions yesterday to the backdrop of police officers I got a very uneasy feeling and after watching Question Time last night I'm thinking this is not going to end well


----------



## Aquilo

JustRob said:


> There is no truth in the rumour that Boris has been seen carrying barrels of gunpowder into the cellars under the Houses of Parliament, so far as I know.



Nah, last I heard he was taking tips off Trump on how to lie by using a.... Sharpie... Other than defacing weather charts, Trump's upped his drawing skills elsewhere. At least he finally managed to get his wall..... Here's what else Donal Trump would chang with a Sharpie. 




escorial said:


> Changed my mind about blocking the thread but there are a few posters on here I might ban



Ban's escorial for want to ban posters an... oh, sorry... wrong thread.  



escorial said:


> When Boris was replying to questions yesterday to the backdrop of police officers I got a very uneasy feeling and after watching Question Time last night I'm thinking this is not going to end well



I've never hated and been terrified more by a political balls-up in my life. No one is fit to run this country at the momemt. The old guard need removing across all parties. The decisions over Brexit belong to the youth: they'll be the ones dealing with fallout for years to come.


----------



## PiP

What terrifies me is that while they are all arguing about Brexit, there are more important issues to discuss... aka climate change and plastic pollution. If they don't take these issues seriously NOW our children and grandchildren won't have a future. 

I have tried to follow the various Brexit debates and I've lost the will to live. What happens to Ireland if there is a 'No Deal'?


----------



## Aquilo

PiP said:


> What happens to Ireland if there is a 'No Deal'?



US lot go in heavy-handed with what's known as a 'hard border' with them: from remote cameras to guard posts to see what goods are crossing between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. And the prospect of that... hell no, God no....

Edit: sorry. You ideally need to know the history over the Northern Ireland conflict v Brexit to understand the fears. Nobody wants to see this split again. At the moment you can move freely between the two, with goods checks going on at the borders, but around Ireland -- not right through it, splitting the two again.  The UK only has a say in Northern Ireland, so we'll be effectively dividing Ireland into two, in a potentially more physical presence than ever seen before. I wouldn't be happy, I know that.


----------



## escorial

The two party system has ran its course..why Labour still calls itself that I'm dumbfounded...Liberals,SNP...etc one would expect to find new ground while the YA in society must organise themselves and face  the challenge with all they can...good luck

For me the backstop is more of  a psyhcological barrier as it may stop people thinking in unison and bring back the us and them mentality


----------



## PiP

Aquilo said:


> US lot go in heavy-handed with what's known as a 'hard border' with them: from remote cameras to guard posts to see what goods are crossing between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. And the prospect of that... hell no, God no....





> The decision by the electorate *was to "Leave the European Union" which won by a majority of 1,269,501 votes (3.78%) over those who had voted in favour of "Remain a member of the European Union", with England and Wales voting to "Leave" while Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to "Remain"*



So if NI and Scotland voted to remain, I wonder how fair it is on them for the 'Will' of England and Wales to be inflicted on them? Maybe Brexit will break the United Kingdom. Ho hum


----------



## Aquilo

PiP said:


> So if NI and Scotland voted to remain, I wonder how fair it is on them for the 'Will' of England and Wales to be inflicted on them? Maybe Brexit will break the United Kingdom. Ho hum



It's not fair at all on either. Scotland won't face the potential conflict that Northern Ireland(potential non-EU member as forced by the UK) and the Republic of Ireland do (EU remainers no matter what the UK say). But they have good support from the EU with imported/exported goods and funding. They would face a lot of loss with no trade deals. So would the UK, so the questions is there -- why the f*** did ANYONE think leaving would be better for us? Why have politicians been caught lying and promoting anti-EU propaganda when they know all the issue we're going to face with a no-deal Brexit, or Brexit in general. What are they hiding? Well, I can guess what when it comes to EU laws on offshore accounts and stopping grubby UK hands flouncing the EU system.

I honestly don't know if it's down to Brexit or not, but it's getting scray with how thin the supermarket shelves are looking. We have five main shopping chains around us: Asda, two with Tesco, Sainsbury's, Aldi, and Lidl. Yet each week I go, shelves look less and less stocked.

It's just bad blood all around.


----------



## escorial

The revolution will be televised by mobile phones


----------



## Aquilo

escorial said:


> The revolution will be televised by mobile phones



Lord yes, because it's filmed by the ones I'm most likely to trust: the kids on the street.


----------



## escorial

What do you think the youth could do better than their peers in politics...


----------



## escorial

I fought the law and the law.....!!!


----------



## escorial

boris has tried to do brexit but tomorrow democracy becomes an individual democratic process...


----------



## escorial

how can boris hold on....to me its clear he is/was the right leader for the job but just in the wrong party....


----------



## Phil Istine

I bet the MPs are glad that Parliament is closing soon.  Can you imagine Boris's girlfriend going in there and starting on them all.

His girlfriend's name is Carrie.


----------



## escorial

parliament..rooks and owls


----------



## Winston

No offence, but from my seat across the pond, Boris looks like the middle-manager at a used car lot.  
Seems to be acting that way as well.


----------



## escorial

boris is were he is because of money and class and luck just like most  of the rest sitting around and opposite him.... you can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead..stan laurel


----------



## escorial

JRM....the next leader
[video=youtube_share;zVOpYQLUTBE]https://youtu.be/zVOpYQLUTBE[/video]


----------



## escorial

Im worried we're heading towards civil war..I keep hoping that I'm being over dramatic but the 4 kingdoms are growing further apart and no longer want to be in the union...


----------



## -xXx-

um.
so have you done any additional development
of DRL?

wiki words that may be helpful:
city-state
country
microstate
micronation
"
A micronation is a small entity that claims to be an independent nation or sovereign state but is not recognized as such by world governments or major international organizations.[1] This contrasts with *microstates*, _which are small but recognized sovereign states_ such as *Andorra, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco, San Marino, and Vatican City*.[2] They are also distinct from imaginary countries and from other kinds of social groups (such as eco-villages, campuses, tribes, clans, sects, and residential community associations) by expressing a formal and persistent, even if unrecognized, claim of sovereignty over some physical territory. Micronations are also distinct from true secessionist movements; micronations' activities are almost always trivial enough to be ignored rather than challenged by the established nations whose territory they claim. Several micronations have issued coins, flags, postage stamps, passports, medals, and other items. These items are rarely accepted outside their own community but may be sold as novelties to help raise money or collected by enthusiasts."

if all the UK WFites
could agree on one small-bounds area,
maybe the WF governing bodies
would add a support button.

*brain-storms*
*face-plants*
*runs for mandatories*


----------



## escorial

Is today the jaw,jaw before war,war...


----------



## Aquilo

escorial said:


> What do you think the youth could do better than their peers in politics...



Well put it this way: they couldn't screw this country up anymore, could they? And I need to introduce you to my18-year-old who's taking law and psychology. This question would take hours, starting with all the euromyhths that have been played over the years and the lies told. 

Right, so let's get this straight. They put forward a guy for PM that's been known to lie, okay -- proven to lie, and all of sudden they're shocked he may have...'mislead' the Queen. Oh the shock... oh the horror. We couldn't possibly see that coming, could we....


----------



## PiP

Sorry, Aquilo. I had to LoL. Of all the intelligent MPs they could have chosen ... why him?


----------



## Aquilo

PiP said:


> Sorry, Aquilo. I had to LoL. Of all the intelligent MPs they could have chosen ... why him?



*sobs* when it comes to Boris, that's what we keep asking, lol... I think we pinned it down to either a game of _blind man's __bluff_, or _eeny, __meeny__, miny...erm, go on, then -- Bo _


----------



## escorial

I can remember when the young had enuff in 81...


----------



## escorial

Not one word about WF in the yellow spammer report....


----------



## Theglasshouse

I dislike it when politicians hide their agendas and don't give their political plans on how they would run office (or don't deliver on their promise to do what they said). Especially in the case of reforms when a politician is in power. They come off as public speakers or talking media presences. They are everywhere in many democratic governments. If Russia was behind this I don't know about that conspiracy theory. They have been accused of sabotaging elections of countries they consider to be their rivals. This is just my opinion on why they chose the wrong minister. It has been repeated throughout time, there should be a law of ethics as to who gets elected in a position of power.


----------



## escorial

People expect politicians to be perfectish and not like themselves...


----------



## escorial

25p a packet a few months back then went up to 27p and today their 29p...


----------



## escorial

Tip for rich people if we leave with no deal

If champagne becomes scarce..just keep the cork and pour cheap 7% cider into an old empty bottle and serve it...


----------



## PiP

Haha... remember all the 'Booze Cruises' and day trips to France for cheap ciggies and drink when the UK first joined the EU?


----------



## escorial

A local shop keeper by me mum's use to organise a trip for the pensioners and give them spends


----------



## escorial

If you want to invest in the UK then buy shares in bridge builders...Boris luvs them


----------



## escorial

Had a moment today when listening to attonments ellergy for Dunkirk I felt the fear of how fragile democracy is and how one should be prepared to protect it...yep that cello piece brings a tear to the eye...


----------



## escorial

Where are all the do good rock stars who like to but in about politics...are they all remainers


----------



## marosabooks

The backstop is DUMB.


----------



## escorial

Jimmy cricket is on the local radio today and I would like to ask him about the backdrop..last I heard about Jimmy the cricket was when he got a death threat of the IRA for his portrayal of an Irishman...I think his catchfraze was come here there's more...


----------



## Princesisto

Well, our British colleagues, BoJo has got you a deal Brexit that looks suspiciously like Theresa May's last attempt, without the backstop and with some cleverly-phrased restating of certain provisions to make British nationalists feel good, and even got it approved for second reading, although Parliament refused to be stampeded into approving it in four days . . .

Problem solved or no?


----------



## Phil Istine

Princesisto said:


> Well, our British colleagues, BoJo has got you a deal Brexit that looks suspiciously like Theresa May's last attempt, without the backstop and with some cleverly-phrased restating of certain provisions to make British nationalists feel good, and even got it approved for second reading, although Parliament refused to be stampeded into approving it in four days . . .
> 
> Problem solved or no?



No, not solved.  It has been passed because many want to tack on amendments.  One of the more controversial ones is that any final parliamentary vote will be subject to another referendum.  Although that still looks fairly unlikely, opinion has slowly solidified behind that option - but probably with insufficient numbers. Also, there is still very strong support for a customs union to be maintained.  I don't actually think there will be a resolution without a general election first, and possibly not then.  All three options are on the table still: (1) hard Brexit (no deal), (2) soft(ish) Brexit (with customs union and/or single market), (3) scrap Brexit.  At the moment a version of option (2) looks the most likely but it can fluctuate regularly - sometimes daily.  Not sure about the backstop when Bairstow is a perfectly good wicketkeeper.


----------



## PiP

There is so much hatred between _some_ of the 'Leave' and 'Remain' brigade if it is not resolved shortly it will not only break Britain it will break families and friends.  If the country is in possession of the 'facts' and as the politicians can't agree, why don't they hold another referendum.

What saddens me is that when we were discussing Boris's shenanigans over lying to the Queen and proroguing Parliament,   our friends of 40 years who live in Britain yet jolly in Portugal, spat at us in a venomous tone: YOU have no right to an opinion as you don't live in Britain any more! We were floored. Needless to say we will be distancing ourselves from this type of person. I respect we have differences but this misplaced patriotism is beyond me.


----------



## Phil Istine

PiP said:


> There is so much hatred between _some_ of the 'Leave' and 'Remain' brigade if it is not resolved shortly it will not only break Britain it will break families and friends.  If the country is in possession of the 'facts' and as the politicians can't agree, why don't they hold another referendum.
> 
> What saddens me is that when we were discussing Boris's shenanigans over lying to the Queen and proroguing Parliament,   our friends of 40 years who live in Britain yet jolly in Portugal, spat at us in a venomous tone: YOU have no right to an opinion as you don't live in Britain any more! We were floored. Needless to say we will be distancing ourselves from this type of person. I respect we have differences but this misplaced patriotism is beyond me.



It's only patriotism in the sense that I might slit my wrists in order to claim autonomy for my body.
I haven't yet heard one good argument for Brexit based on logic, except from the very rich who will (and already have) made a lot of money through shorting the pound on the exchange markets. I've heard a few apparent reasonable arguments, but when you drill down to the details they are heavily based on misinformation.  The only seemingly reasonable arguments are based on emotion which, in turn, are largely based on the above misinformation.

The UK currently has the best deal in the EU - I've seen it jokingly labelled as Germany-plus-plus.  Although it is one of the net contributors, this is more than offset by rebates and trading benefits.  A good few years contributions have already been used to shore up the pound and to prepare for leaving.

I wouldn't normally advocate violence, but if someone took out the entire inner cabinet, I ... let's say I wouldn't be particularly upset.


----------



## Princesisto

PiP said:


> What saddens me is that when we were discussing Boris's shenanigans over lying to the Queen and proroguing Parliament,   our friends of 40 years who live in Britain yet jolly in Portugal, spat at us in a venomous tone: YOU have no right to an opinion as you don't live in Britain any more!



_Diga-lhes ir o inferno_!


----------



## Aquilo




----------



## Ralph Rotten

Phil Istine said:


> I haven't yet heard one good argument for Brexit based on logic.



Truth. Brexit seems to be based on Trumpian logic.


----------



## Princesisto

I think that the Brexit story had a happy ending. The people are going to get a chance to decide the Brexit matter finally, either by voting Conservative in a general election (Boris' Brexit deal) or by voting almost anyone else and having a new referendum to decide. 

If they vote Liberal Democratic or Brexit Party, either they get a new referendum or make a protest vote (the Liberal Democrats want no Brexit at all but they cannot get a majority by themselves and they have said that they will accept a new referendum if they don't: Brexiteers want a no-deal Brexit but they also cannot get a majority by themselves and no one else will vote with them in Parliament for a no-deal Brexit, if they get any seats there this time). 

As if anyone cared, in my novel manuscript, the result of the election is that all Parties except Conservatives and Brexit form a "Rainbow Coalition Government" (red, yellow, green, blue) when no one wins a majority, which holds a new referendum: but the people vote for Brexit again and Britain leaves with no deal.

As BBC reports, every option is still possible from a no-deal Brexit to no Brexit at all, or anything in-between. I humbly submit that what the people of Britain and Europe want is a final decision implemented: almost no matter what it is and that looks like what will happen.

Britons?


----------



## Phil Istine

Princesisto said:


> I think that the Brexit story had a happy ending. The people are going to get a chance to decide the Brexit matter finally, either by voting Conservative in a general election (Boris' Brexit deal) or by voting almost anyone else and having a new referendum to decide.
> 
> If they vote Liberal Democratic or Brexit Party, either they get a new referendum or make a protest vote (the Liberal Democrats want no Brexit at all but they cannot get a majority by themselves and they have said that they will accept a new referendum if they don't: Brexiteers want a no-deal Brexit but they also cannot get a majority by themselves and no one else will vote with them in Parliament for a no-deal Brexit, if they get any seats there this time).
> 
> As if anyone cared, in my novel manuscript, the result of the election is that all Parties except Conservatives and Brexit form a "Rainbow Coalition Government" (red, yellow, green, blue) when no one wins a majority, which holds a new referendum: but the people vote for Brexit again and Britain leaves with no deal.
> 
> As BBC reports, every option is still possible from a no-deal Brexit to no Brexit at all, or anything in-between. I humbly submit that what the people of Britain and Europe want is a final decision implemented: almost no matter what it is and that looks like what will happen.
> 
> Britons?



It's not quite that simple for several reasons:

(1) We have a first past the post voting system, so the allegiances of MPs in parliament doesn't necessarily reflect the overall voting pattern - we've had majority governments who have won only 35% of the popular vote in the past.

(2) Although Brexit is a major issue, the forthcoming election is about all the other issues too.  It's quite possible for someone to agree with a particular party on everything - except that party's Brexit policy.

If this election ends up with no party having an overall majority, this could rumble on and on.  Even if we end up leaving soon, the negotiations will take years - trade deals are like that.  However, I believe there is a "standstill period" agreed for an extendable year while they thrash out details.


----------



## PiP

I  no longer care either way but Brexit will break Britain. I just feel so sorry for Northern Ireland who never voted to leave and hope they can resolve the border issue without the return of bloodshed. As for Scotland, again they never voted to leave so I would not blame them if they break away from the UK, go independent so they can remain in Europe.

It sounds simple on paper but to implement ... if it had been that simple to extract GB from the EU, we would have left a couple of years ago.

It has already fractured families and friends and unhealthy divides in opinion.


----------



## Phil Istine

PiP said:


> I  no longer care either way but Brexit will break Britain. I just feel so sorry for Northern Ireland who never voted to leave and hope they can resolve the border issue without the return of bloodshed. As for Scotland, again they never voted to leave so I would not blame them if they break away from the UK, go independent so they can remain in Europe.
> 
> It sounds simple on paper but to implement ... if it had been that simple to extract GB from the EU, we would have left a couple of years ago.
> 
> It has already fractured families and friends and unhealthy divides in opinion.



It's possible to point fingers in many directions, but every time I start doing this it keeps stopping at Cameron - the gutless pipsqueak who didn't have the balls to stand up to the wannabe fascists in his party, and when he lost his gamble he ran off into the woods squealing like a stuck pig.  If he were in front of me now I'd say that, and more, to his face.  And that prick wrote a bestseller too.  I won't be buying it as I don't want to put a penny in his pocket (not that he needs it), but I'd read it if I came across a bootleg copy on the internet.  I don't normally do that as I believe artists should be paid, but I'll make an exception in his case.


----------



## BornForBurning

I can't help but think Britain is Prussia to the EU's Germany. The historical similarities are uncanny.


----------



## Phil Istine

*....*


----------



## bazz cargo

Well. Even if Brexit is cancelled we will soon see the break up of the UK. I'm sixty, it will happen before I die. 

Nothing lasts forever and I suppose the UK was due to end anyhow.  
The odd thing is, we will need the EU more than ever after the UK breaks up.


----------



## escorial

Grandma's getting frisky or five dozen an now...six...0...bazz cargo....house


----------



## bazz cargo

Yo esc. I'm still chasing, I just need oxygen sometimes.


----------



## escorial

Bookshop owner is of the opinion that if corbyn gets in he will meet with an accident...to me hes a wise chap an I like his pov on stuff....bit of a snob in his diluted form for a man in trade...


----------



## Biro

The people were asked and given a chance to vote.  

What their opinions and decisions of whether to stay or to leave were probably already made long before all the propaganda started.  Whether the decision to leave is better for some people or not so good for others is irrelevant as there will always be winners and losers in all decisions whatever they are.

Who is right and who is wrong is also totally irrelevant as everything changes with time regardless of decisions made.

The point is the people were asked a question which was quite simple and they gave their answer.

If you do not act on that answer you are in big trouble, not just now but forever as long as those people are still living on both sides of the fence.  This is because you will never be trusted or be able to regain their trust again.

Parliament and it's process will be deemed to be rotten and corrupt by the population and will never be trusted on anything by all people.

What you end up with is a population of people who see that those in charge are not interested in acting on the peoples decisions when voting.  So then next time there is a vote, the only people who participate (very few) are the ones who are trying to gain power for their own means and not for the good of the people or country.  

The only way this can be stopped will be to get the masses out voting again which will never happen and those who have gained power will put in measures to stop this ever happening.  A simple fixed term Parliament is one example which becomes longer and longer.

The result is through not acting on the peoples decision whatever it is, you will in fact destroy the democratic process.  There are lots of examples around the world of this and none of them are what you call great places.


----------



## epimetheus

Biro said:


> The point is the people were asked a question which was quite simple and they gave their answer.
> 
> If you do not act on that answer you are in big trouble, not just now but forever as long as those people are still living on both sides of the fence.  This is because you will never be trusted or be able to regain their trust again.
> 
> Parliament and it's process will be deemed to be rotten and corrupt by the population and will never be trusted on anything by all people.



The irony is that the vote was exactly about giving more power to British parliament. Parliament is simply wielding that power, as it did so in the past.

But i agree, either way this pans out it won't be good: we'll either get a rise in right wing populism or the break up of the union and a weaker economy.


----------



## Biro

epimetheus said:


> The irony is that the vote was exactly about giving more power to British parliament. Parliament is simply wielding that power, as it did so in the past.
> 
> But i agree, either way this pans out it won't be good: we'll either get a rise in right wing populism or the break up of the union and a weaker economy.



Well this is just your opinion and thats ok because you are entitled to it.  But your points.........

Right wing populism:  You say that as if it is a bad thing.  Being right wing isn't being an SS guard in a concentration camp.  Being Left wing isnt all good and don't forget Communism which is extreme Left wing killed lots more people than the Nazi's ever did.  But if the masses prefer to be what you refer to as 'Right wing' then that is their democratic choice......isnt it?  ....In a democracy.

Break up of the union..........I should imagine that this would happen some time just as the EU would also break up some time.   A break up doesn't mean a weaker economy.  It may mean that some sections/countries are better off not having to subsidise other sections/countries.  For example NI is subsidised by billions to the rest of the UK in monetary terms.  So if they were no longer part of UK then obviousley in monetary terms the UK would be better off........I should imagine?


----------



## epimetheus

It's not right or left wing that worries me, but the populism part, which isn't synonymous with democracy.

Break up of the Union is on the cards anyway, but it seems Brexit will speed it up a decade or two. Regardless, various analysts think the economy will just be a bit weaker in the long term (assuming an orderly brexit), but i'm sure some businesses and individuals will benefit.

But sure, these things might not worry some people.


----------



## Biro

epimetheus said:


> It's not right or left wing that worries me, but the populism part, which isn't synonymous with democracy.
> 
> Break up of the Union is on the cards anyway, but it seems Brexit will speed it up a decade or two. Regardless, various analysts think the economy will just be a bit weaker in the long term (assuming an orderly brexit), but i'm sure some businesses and individuals will benefit.
> 
> But sure, these things might not worry some people.



Agreed but what can you do?  If you believe in democracy then you have to accept the result and abide by it.  Not try and make a mess of everything by whining about something else.

I live in a country which will be devastated by the political class backing the wrong horse when the UK leaves.  But I realise this was going to happen anyway and nearly did 11 years ago.  Except when it falls apart the 'other way' than Brexit the results will be far worse than those from Brexit.

We can all hope only good things happen and the naughty man stays away.  

Just get on with it and leave it behind.  There is always something else around the corner good or bad.  But you will never know unless you get going and go around the corner!  

Stand still and your a sitting duck for the bad things.


----------



## epimetheus

Biro said:


> Agreed but what can you do?  If you believe in democracy then you have to accept the result and abide by it.  Not try and make a mess of everything by whining about something else.



There are still legitimate choices to be made: the deal we leave with will have a big effect on the next few decades. Some of what we see in Parliament is people just throwing a spanner in the works, but there are lots of genuine decisions which need to be made, and unless we get another referendum, Parliament will have to make them. 

The whining will never stop: it's not a partisan thing, just human nature. We voted to join the EEC, but people were whining about it for decades. If remain had won, brexiteers wouldn't have shut up: and nor should they, a plurality of voices is part of democracy. And it is perhaps the most British of things to bitterly complain about something while doing absolutely nothing about it.


----------



## bazz cargo

Let us just leave the sound bites to one side for a moment. 

Dave put us up for this stupid Referendum to get his party back in power. This is the country who voted for Boaty McBoatface. This is the country that has suffered a decade of Tory austerity. This is the country that is still fighting the Second World war. This is the country that is preposterously racist. This is the country whose newspapers are owned by very wealthy foreigners that have waged long term psychological warfare  on  our citizens.  Of course we are going to vote to  leave. The trouble is the cost of  leaving is the end of the UK. It is that simple. Which is why we have spent three years going round in circles. The only way we can leave is to force the EU to push us out. What a magnificent triumph for democracy that will be.  And such a dramatic change to our lives should be subject to a confirmatory vote. Not to be left to a bunch of frustrated racists without a mandate. 

In these past three years a lot of interesting things have come to light. All of the Leave sound-bites have proven to be rubbish or outright lies. There is a lot of evidence pointing to foreign interference and there is a resurgence of bigotry. 

We cannot return this country to the halcyon days of our youth. We can only hand it on to the next generation. Brexit will take decades to sort out. Our children are not going to thank us for this mess. 

Democracy is far from perfect, it is the best we have. Hitler is not the only monster who rose to power via democracy. This is not in the same league but it is still a mistake and it is not too late to fix it. Mind you, even this dance of daftness has already damaged our economy, reputation and  prospects. 

Leaving may not hurt you personally, it is going to wreck a hell of a lot other people's lives. This is not some academic exercise, it will have very serious results. I ask you to consider if the result is worth the price.  





Biro said:


> The people were asked and given a chance to vote.
> 
> What their opinions and decisions of whether to stay or to leave were probably already made long before all the propaganda started.  Whether the decision to leave is better for some people or not so good for others is irrelevant as there will always be winners and losers in all decisions whatever they are.
> 
> Who is right and who is wrong is also totally irrelevant as everything changes with time regardless of decisions made.
> 
> The point is the people were asked a question which was quite simple and they gave their answer.
> 
> If you do not act on that answer you are in big trouble, not just now but forever as long as those people are still living on both sides of the fence.  This is because you will never be trusted or be able to regain their trust again.
> 
> Parliament and it's process will be deemed to be rotten and corrupt by the population and will never be trusted on anything by all people.
> 
> What you end up with is a population of people who see that those in charge are not interested in acting on the peoples decisions when voting.  So then next time there is a vote, the only people who participate (very few) are the ones who are trying to gain power for their own means and not for the good of the people or country.
> 
> The only way this can be stopped will be to get the masses out voting again which will never happen and those who have gained power will put in measures to stop this ever happening.  A simple fixed term Parliament is one example which becomes longer and longer.
> 
> The result is through not acting on the peoples decision whatever it is, you will in fact destroy the democratic process.  There are lots of examples around the world of this and none of them are what you call great places.


----------



## Biro

bazz cargo said:


> Let us just leave the sound bites to one side for a moment.
> 
> Dave put us up for this stupid Referendum to get his party back in power. This is the country who voted for Boaty McBoatface. This is the country that has suffered a decade of Tory austerity. This is the country that is still fighting the Second World war. This is the country that is preposterously racist. This is the country whose newspapers are owned by very wealthy foreigners that have waged long term psychological warfare  on  our citizens.  Of course we are going to vote to  leave. The trouble is the cost of  leaving is the end of the UK. It is that simple. Which is why we have spent three years going round in circles. The only way we can leave is to force the EU to push us out. What a magnificent triumph for democracy that will be.  And such a dramatic change to our lives should be subject to a confirmatory vote. Not to be left to a bunch of frustrated racists without a mandate.
> 
> In these past three years a lot of interesting things have come to light. All of the Leave sound-bites have proven to be rubbish or outright lies. There is a lot of evidence pointing to foreign interference and there is a resurgence of bigotry.
> 
> We cannot return this country to the halcyon days of our youth. We can only hand it on to the next generation. Brexit will take decades to sort out. Our children are not going to thank us for this mess.
> 
> Democracy is far from perfect, it is the best we have. Hitler is not the only monster who rose to power via democracy. This is not in the same league but it is still a mistake and it is not too late to fix it. Mind you, even this dance of daftness has already damaged our economy, reputation and  prospects.
> 
> Leaving may not hurt you personally, it is going to wreck a hell of a lot other people's lives. This is not some academic exercise, it will have very serious results. I ask you to consider if the result is worth the price.




Well the Brexit election came and went and the result was............


----------



## escorial

He that walk with me through the valley of death shall hear no evil or speak no truth


----------



## Biro

So Bazz, what are you going to do now?


----------



## escorial

I think we should now have a referendum about having another referendum


----------



## BornForBurning

> It's not right or left wing that worries me, but the populism part, which isn't synonymous with democracy.


I don't think this is true. Many tyrants are only able to rise to power _because _of democracy. If it wasn't for the popular vote, they would have been stymied by a hostile oligarchy. Napoleon Bonaparte is a prime example of this. It arguably isn't compatible with Republicanism but Republicanism is an ideological nonsequitur regardless. Democracy isn't better or worse than any other form of government anyways. Outsource a tiny amount of power to many different people, or a lot of power to a few specific people? There's really no distinction unless the 'popular vote' has some inherent moral capacity that the elites lack. And quite frankly, I don't believe they do. Modern unions are a prime example of this. An evil man will abuse his power whether he's given it over one man or a million men. And if a million evil men are given a little power, it isn't any better than giving it all to one man.


----------



## Biro

BornForBurning said:


> I don't think this is true. Many tyrants are only able to rise to power _because _of democracy. If it wasn't for the popular vote, they would have been stymied by a hostile oligarchy. Napoleon Bonaparte is a prime example of this. It arguably isn't compatible with Republicanism but Republicanism is an ideological nonsequitur regardless. Democracy isn't better or worse than any other form of government anyways. Outsource a tiny amount of power to many different people, or a lot of power to a few specific people? There's really no distinction unless the 'popular vote' has some inherent moral capacity that the elites lack. And quite frankly, I don't believe they do. Modern unions are a prime example of this. An evil man will abuse his power whether he's given it over one man or a million men. And if a million evil men are given a little power, it isn't any better than giving it all to one man.



But in a democracy you usually get the chance to remove him after a few years by voting again.

The alternative man in this election was seen as a terrorist supporter and extreme.  All by his own doings. You are judged by the company you keep.

The leaders of the EU are seen in just a bad light for different reasons.  The difference is in the UK they were given the chance to remove the person they disliked for his actions or beliefs.  With the EU the system is set so you can never remove such people if you think same of them.

Democracy has to be seen to work.  The Europeans have always had different ways regards leaders.  Perhaps that's why they have such turbulent histories.  Look at the French now.

I live in a country where they fought for independance and then fought each other for the type of system they wanted.  The got the worse of the worse where today the end up with the supposedly perfect system.  

'Proportional Representation' .........A system so democratic that everyone gets a piece of the action because that's only fair?   What you end up with is that every politician is exactly the same and sings from the same hymn sheet..........Their own!!!............ to get a lucrative paid job!.........And nothing ever changes or gets done.

The country has ended up without a proper economy after 100 years.  The economy is based on what multi-nationals hand out to it.  The country is totally addicted to EU money and jumps to every EU decision. ............That money by the way was the UK's hard earned money stolen from them to feed the EU.

Every piece of daily propaganda here is EU biased and because they sense and know there is huge objection coming from the people.  The government now is trying to bring in extreme hate speech laws to silence any opposition.

The UK has been really lucky and hopefully escaped and couldn't have done this without the chance to vote. ..........Democracy.


----------



## epimetheus

Biro said:


> The country has ended up without a proper economy after 100 years.  The economy is based on what multi-nationals hand out to it.  The country is totally addicted to EU money and jumps to every EU decision. ............That money by the way was the UK's hard earned money stolen from them to feed the EU.



The UK has economically flourished with Europe, having floundered post-war (the Marshall plan a considerable help). The EU is foremost an economic union. It's telling that the City of London, which produces 1/4 of the UKs wealth (one of the financial centres of the world, not to be confused with London itself), voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU. It's one thing to want out of the EU for political reasons, but pretending there are economic reasons is disingenuous. The UK will be a little poorer outside the EU in the mid-term. Long-term will depend on to what extent the City of London will retain its international financial services sector - it has many European customers. 



Biro said:


> Every piece of daily propaganda here is EU biased and because they sense and know there is huge objection coming from the people. The government now is trying to bring in extreme hate speech laws to silence any opposition.



UK media is about evenly split in terms of pro or anti EU bias. Of course, people who lean right decrie the left-wing media bias, while those who lean left decrie the right-wing media bias - humans have evolved to imagine tigers in even innocuous foliage.

What extreme hate speech laws? Give me a link to a white paper document, or even a green paper document.



Biro said:


> The UK has been really lucky and hopefully escaped and couldn't have done this without the chance to vote. ..........Democracy.



Whether it's lucky depends on your political perspective. But we did vote to join the EEC back in the 70s, the predecessor to the EU. And we will probably vote in 10-20 years time on whether to rejoin whatever the EU becomes. Scotland should get that vote sooner.


----------



## epimetheus

BornForBurning said:


> I don't think this is true. Many tyrants are only able to rise to power _because _of democracy. If it wasn't for the popular vote, they would have been stymied by a hostile oligarchy. Napoleon Bonaparte is a prime example of this.



My understanding is that Napoleon legitimised his rule using the Plebiscite, but his power was already assured with the Roman Empire inspired Republic he had established. Maybe Hitler would be a better example?




BornForBurning said:


> It arguably isn't compatible with Republicanism but Republicanism is an ideological nonsequitur regardless. Democracy isn't better or worse than any other form of government anyways. Outsource a tiny amount of power to many different people, or a lot of power to a few specific people? There's really no distinction unless the 'popular vote' has some inherent moral capacity that the elites lack. And quite frankly, I don't believe they do. Modern unions are a prime example of this. An evil man will abuse his power whether he's given it over one man or a million men. And if a million evil men are given a little power, it isn't any better than giving it all to one man.



I agree generally. We might think of democracy as a system of governance, and populism a strategy to leverage that system to its own ends, as opposed to competing methods of governance. However, populism will not focus on rational discourse, it will appeal base instincts, creating a bogey man to set itself up as the saviour of the people. 

Hitler rode in on a wave of populism. I think it has proven itself an unhelpful way of leveraging democracy. I also think this is particularly problematic in the social media age in which various algorithms can manipulate us all the more easily to imagine the bogey man.


----------



## Biro

epimetheus said:


> The UK has economically flourished with Europe, having floundered post-war (the Marshall plan a considerable help). The EU is foremost an economic union. It's telling that the City of London, which produces 1/4 of the UKs wealth (one of the financial centres of the world, not to be confused with London itself), voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU. It's one thing to want out of the EU for political reasons, but pretending there are economic reasons is disingenuous. The UK will be a little poorer outside the EU in the mid-term. Long-term will depend on to what extent the City of London will retain its international financial services sector - it has many European customers.
> 
> 
> 
> UK media is about evenly split in terms of pro or anti EU bias. Of course, people who lean right decrie the left-wing media bias, while those who lean left decrie the right-wing media bias - humans have evolved to imagine tigers in even innocuous foliage.
> 
> What extreme hate speech laws? Give me a link to a white paper document, or even a green paper document.
> 
> 
> 
> Whether it's lucky depends on your political perspective. But we did vote to join the EEC back in the 70s, the predecessor to the EU. And we will probably vote in 10-20 years time on whether to rejoin whatever the EU becomes. Scotland should get that vote sooner.



I do not live in the UK but in another EU colony.

The UK may have done just as well or even better if it wasn't in the EU which only came to force in the 90's.  The UK joined the 'Common Market' which was a trading block.

The EU will not be around in 20 years time.  It desperately needs the UK or to have total control of it.

The rest of the EU has desperately begged and offered financial stimulus to the financial sector to desert London and move elsewhere in the past 3.5 years.  Ireland especially has been trying mega hard.  But nobody will move because they now know outside the EU the financial services sector will explode with business as all the EU regs disappear from them.


----------



## Biro

epimetheus said:


> Hitler rode in on a wave of populism. I think it has proven itself an unhelpful way of leveraging democracy. I also think this is particularly problematic in the social media age in which various algorithms can manipulate us all the more easily to imagine the bogey man.



Populism is just one of those 'words' like 'racism' which objectors band around at others they disagree with in an attempt to kill or stifle their argument.  It doesn't work and as soon as someone try's this tired out attack formula, it is just an admission of failure.

Populism is just .....What the people want.   If 'the people' want something, then so be it.  Because if you claim to be democratic then you have to go with that.  If you don't then how can you be democratic?


----------



## epimetheus

Biro said:


> The UK may have done just as well or even better if it wasn't in the EU which only came to force in the 90's.  The UK joined the 'Common Market' which was a trading block.
> 
> The EU will not be around in 20 years time.  It desperately needs the UK or to have total control of it.
> 
> The rest of the EU has desperately begged and offered financial stimulus to the financial sector to desert London and move elsewhere in the past 3.5 years.  Ireland especially has been trying mega hard.  But nobody will move because they now know outside the EU the financial services sector will explode with business as all the EU regs disappear from them.



It was just coincidence that the UK economy grew more after joining the EEC? And I guess it would just be coincidence if the UK economy were to struggle if we left the common market?

Where are you getting your information? I notice you didn't back up your claim that about 'extreme' hate speech laws in the UK. Perhaps you could just show me what data you base your prediction that the EU will no longer exist in 20 years. Kudos for the bold prediction.



Biro said:


> Populism is just one of those 'words' like 'racism' which objectors band around at others they disagree with in an attempt to kill or stifle their argument. It doesn't work and as soon as someone try's this tired out attack formula, it is just an admission of failure.
> 
> Populism is just .....What the people want. If 'the people' want something, then so be it. Because if you claim to be democratic then you have to go with that. If you don't then how can you be democratic?



Populism and racism do not exist? They may well be hijacked by particular interest groups (itself a populist strategy), but that does not mean they do not exist. Some have said this has happened to Black Lives Matter (i don't follow US politics so don't really know) - but US racism is still definitely a problem. 

Democracy is about plurality and voting is just the most basic by which we can engage in the process. The UK voted for Brexit - but the terms of Brexit weren't defined before the referendum. Hence a discussion, from all sectors of UK society, would be the democratic way to proceed - not 'we got 4% higher in the vote therefore Farage gets to do whatever he wants'.


----------



## Biro

epimetheus said:


> It was just coincidence that the UK economy grew more after joining the EEC? And I guess it would just be coincidence if the UK economy were to struggle if we left the common market?
> 
> Where are you getting your information? I notice you didn't back up your claim that about 'extreme' hate speech laws in the UK. Perhaps you could just show me what data you base your prediction that the EU will no longer exist in 20 years. Kudos for the bold prediction.
> 
> 
> 
> Populism and racism do not exist? They may well be hijacked by particular interest groups (itself a populist strategy), but that does not mean they do not exist. Some have said this has happened to Black Lives Matter (i don't follow US politics so don't really know) - but US racism is still definitely a problem.
> 
> Democracy is about plurality and voting is just the most basic by which we can engage in the process. The UK voted for Brexit - but the terms of Brexit weren't defined before the referendum. Hence a discussion, from all sectors of UK society, would be the democratic way to proceed - not 'we got 4% higher in the vote therefore Farage gets to do whatever he wants'.



Wow!  .....Firstly I suggest you 'READ' my posts.  I am not in UK.  So hate speech laws will apply elsewhere.  I never ever said UK.

Economies grow all the time otherwise you are in trouble.  After 46 years you would have least hoped they grew.  By how much in or out is just hearsay.

I never said populism and racism do not exist.  All I said is that people say that to stifle and silence others when they do not agree with them.

Farage has done nothing.  He has never had or will have the power to do anything.  All that has happened is that people have listened to him.....some agreed .....some didnt.   Most are intelligent enough to make up their own minds as what to do.  But some can never accept that.

_The UK voted for Brexit - but the terms of Brexit weren't defined before the referendum._   Again somebody is saying they just didnt know what they voted for.   Well they certainly did other day and the result was an even bigger...OUT....OUT....OUT!

Round and round in circles.


----------



## PiP

Guys, I've had a gut full of politics and Brexit.  It is what it is, so *PLEASE *let's move on and not dwell on the past.


----------



## Phil Istine

Biro said:


> _The UK voted for Brexit - but the terms of Brexit weren't defined before the referendum._   Again somebody is saying they just didnt know what they voted for.   Well they certainly did other day and the result was an even bigger...OUT....OUT....OUT!
> 
> Round and round in circles.



I won't get too involved in this as it's now done and dusted (except for a year or three of negotiating a worse deal than our current one).  In the election, 16+ million voted for parties that were either committed to remain in the EU or committed to another referendum.  14+ million voted for parties that were committed to leaving in one shade or another.  Although Brexit isn't the only issue in a general election, the 16/14 million figures (it was actually about 1.5 million difference) approximate to what polls were indicating about Brexit since the referendum - that sufficient numbers were having second thoughts for another vote to go the opposite way.

The real flaw in the UK is the _first past the post_ voting system - I am an advocate of _proportional representation_. I'm not a recent convert of convenience, because I've believed this since I was old enough to vote (44 years ago).  I've maintained this stance even when my party of choice was in office.  I would even go as far as to say that _FPTP _was a major contributor to the discontent that led to Brexit_, _because it meant that millions of northern-based working class voters could be safely ignored, either because their votes were insufficient to topple the government or because their votes could be relied upon - depending which government was in office.
For a frame of reference to Americans, it's a bit like a President (any President) gaining office while losing the popular vote, only the UK version of this is more extreme.


----------



## Ralph Rotten

The hang up with the negotiations is that the UK wants the same trade deal they have already.
But that's like asking for the Cosco discount without actually being a member of Cosco.
The bottom line is this: If Brexit really does happen, it will mean a crappy trade deal with each of the EU nations.
Hell hath no fury like a nation scorned. The EU will *not *cut you a deal as good as the one you have now.


----------



## Phil Istine

Ralph Rotten said:


> The hang up with the negotiations is that the UK wants the same trade deal they have already.
> But that's like asking for the Cosco discount without actually being a member of Cosco.
> The bottom line is this: If Brexit really does happen, it will mean a crappy trade deal with each of the EU nations.
> Hell hath no fury like a nation scorned. The EU will *not *cut you a deal as good as the one you have now.



No, of course they won't, and what many fail to realise is that we already had the best deal in the EU; they bent over backwards to keep us onside and not leave.  Some humorously referred to it as Germany-plus-plus.  We didn't join the single currency (we tried, but market forces prevented it in '92), we had an opt-out from the Schengen deal, and we had an ongoing financial rebate.  We are now faced with the break-up of the United Kingdom.  Although the Scots have been told that they won't get an independence referendum for at least five years, the groundswell north of the border may yet become Britain's Catalonia, and the Northern Irish may well decide that remaining in the EU is sufficient reward for reuniting with the Republic of Ireland.  Under the Good Friday Agreement, Ireland doesn't need Westminster's "permission" to initiate a reunification referendum.  It would actually require two referenda, one for the North and another for the Republic, and both would have to return a "Yes" for it to happen.  The Republic would surely vote to reunify, but the situation in the North is less clear.
If it doesn't work out, I can always die in a ditch.


----------



## Biro

Sorry Pip just correcting misinfo here.

Irish reunification...................will never happen regardless of what Northern Ireland Sein Fein says...........Reasons........The Republics people would never vote to accept it and the Republic could never afford the £10 billion net that the UK subsidises NI every year as the Republic's economy is tanked.  .................The EU hasn't got the dosh...........and when the nitty gritty of being that much poorer is put to the population of NI then they would never vote for such.

Really fellas find out some facts instead of reading the Guardian and watching BBC.


----------



## Biro

Again more misinfo



Phil Istine said:


> The real flaw in the UK is the _first past the post_ voting system - I am an advocate of _proportional representation_. I'm not a recent convert of convenience, because I've believed this since I was old enough to vote (44 years ago).  I've maintained this stance even when my party of choice was in office. .



Yeah you should as they say be careful for what you wish for.

I live in a country of 'proportion representation' and it's the biggest con, biggest mess, biggest catastrophe anybody could have.

What happens is the politicians who get voted in do nothing for their electorate because they don't have any power because unless there is a landslide to one party, the other politicians gang together to stop the right things being done. 

 This is done if it affects the politicians losing out in some way.  So in the end any change for good never comes. 

 The people are just left frustrated because they simply cannot change a thing even by voting. 

 The politicians even engineer situations where an election is delayed so that they can keep their lucrative well paid jobs as long as possible. 

 The country is stuck in a mire where the people want other but the politicians do not want the same and control everything to have their way.

In effect the democracy of the people has been taken away.  You could liken it to what has gone on in the British parliament for the past 3.5 years..........stalemate for all the wrong reasons to suit those in parliament and not government and definitely not the people.

The only change comes when the people are given the chance to vote for what they want............as what happened last week and that is best suited to 'first past the post'.

The antics of last summer in Westminister are exactly the results of having proportional representation.  In other words no majority.


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## Phil Istine

Biro said:


> Again more misinfo
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah you should as they say be careful for what you wish for.
> 
> I live in a country of 'proportion representation' and it's the biggest con, biggest mess, biggest catastrophe anybody could have.
> 
> What happens is the politicians who get voted in do nothing for their electorate because they don't have any power because unless there is a landslide to one party, the other politicians gang together to stop the right things being done.
> 
> This is done if it affects the politicians losing out in some way.  So in the end any change for good never comes.
> 
> The people are just left frustrated because they simply cannot change a thing even by voting.
> 
> The politicians even engineer situations where an election is delayed so that they can keep their lucrative well paid jobs as long as possible.
> 
> The country is stuck in a mire where the people want other but the politicians do not want the same and control everything to have their way.
> 
> In effect the democracy of the people has been taken away.  You could liken it to what has gone on in the British parliament for the past 3.5 years..........stalemate for all the wrong reasons to suit those in parliament and not government.
> 
> The only change comes when the people are given the chance to vote for what they want............as what happened last week and that is best suited to 'first past the post'.
> 
> The antics of last summer in Westminister are exactly the results of having proportional representation.  In other words no majority.



Please don't accuse me of propagating misinformation.  The word misinformation strongly implies intent i.e. intentional lies.
As for the part about PR stopping politicians doing the right thing, it can also stop them doing the wrong thing.  First past the post has been abused by governments of both shades in the UK.
Apart from any of this, I'm not advocating any change in whatever nation you come from - I'm advocating it in the UK.


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## Biro

Phil Istine said:


> Please don't accuse me of propagating misinformation.  The word misinformation strongly implies intent i.e. intentional lies.
> As for the part about PR stopping politicians doing the right thing, it can also stop them doing the wrong thing.  First past the post has been abused by governments of both shades in the UK.
> Apart from any of this, I'm not advocating any change in whatever nation you come from - I'm advocating it in the UK.



I know you are advocating it for the UK because if you read my post it said.....be careful for what you wish for............and then I explained what happens if you have such.

As regards accusations.  My reference to misinfo is the reference that 'proportional representation' would solve or even make things better than the system you have....'first past the post'.  Again I have explained what happens or can happen if you have such a system.

I have never intended to call anybody a liar or anywhere near.


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## Darren White

*Everyone, the discussion has run its course. Brexit is a fact, no need to drag it out any further in a discussion here.
I'd like all of you to read this post:
https://www.writingforums.com/threads/185141-WF-and-Politics

Happy writing, this thread is now closed.*


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