# Post Your Snippets For Craft Help Here



## Kent_Jacobs

Ok, so I'm trying something. I have been told if this is reasonably successful, a subforum could be made for it. So, please, try to keep it on topic.

The idea is to have a section purely for craft and nothing else. We have a section for grammar and we have the Writing Workshop section, but that section is really for short stories and novels. Yes you get critique there on style and craft but it's not specifically for craft and is such a broad church of critique, it doesn't lend itself well to nailing down craft alone. I hope this thread does just that. Other forums have a section like this so I see no reason we couldn't have one here too. From a quick scout around, they're popular.

So what's it about? Instead of posting whole stories or large sections of stories, you post a sentence or a paragraph (or three). Something you're not happy with and want to know how to improve. You could also ask for help with better word choice, better structuring, any number of craft related things. I've already done this a couple of times with things like my 'is this mournful?' thread but never really felt it fitted here well. I think a focused subforum would be helpful for a lot of people.


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## Phil Istine

TheMightyAz said:


> Ok, so I'm trying something. I have been told if this is reasonably successful, a subforum could be made for it. So, please, try to keep it on topic.
> 
> The idea is to have a section purely for craft and nothing else. We have a section for grammar and we have the Writing Workshop section, but that section is really for short stories and novels. Yes you get critique there on style and craft but it's not specifically for craft and is such a broad church of critique, it doesn't lend itself well to nailing down craft alone. I hope this thread does just that. Other forums have a section like this so I see no reason we couldn't have one here too. From a quick scout around, they're popular.
> 
> So what's it about? Instead of posting whole stories or large sections of stories, you post a sentence or a paragraph. Something you're not happy with and want to know how to improve. You could also ask for help with better word choice, better structuring, any number of craft related things. I've already done this a couple of times with things like my 'is this mournful?' thread but never really felt it fitted here well. I think a focused subforum would be helpful for a lot of people.


Snippets are al very well, but sometimes a bit more is needed to make fine-tuning suggestions.  For instance, a character might be perceiving a police officer.  Without knowing where or when the character comes from or anything about how he views the police, the noun choices could be numerous: officer, policeman, PC, dick, pig, cop, copper, tec, detective, fuzz, filth, uniforms, bluebottle etc.
That's just one example.
In general though, your idea does have some appeal.
If anything is to change, please be patient.  This new software takes a little getting used to and the effect behind the scenes is greatly amplified.  It's not just about pressing a few buttons but about finding where those buttons are and whether they do exactly what you expect of them.


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## Taylor

Yes, it's a good idea. And a great way to interact for both the poster and the suggester.  I haven't got one at this moment, but I will definitely put it up here when I do.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Taylor said:


> Yes, it's a good idea. And a great way to interact for both the poster and the suggester.  I haven't got one at this moment, but I will definitely put it up here when I do.


Yeah, same here. I thought about digging through my stuff for an example but I didn't want it to become a 'me' thread again.


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## Ajoy

Here's a small section from a draft due for exactly this kind of editing:

Next to the woman’s bench, hanging on a stone column is a large mahogany frame an arm span in either direction. Within it, sits a basic yet accurate map of the earth, and next to that is a drawing of several golden arches, each labeled with a different name, and then another map, landforms and water shapes unrecognizable. It is labeled as Atlantis. The map sparkles with random specs of gold.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Ajoy said:


> Here's a small section from a draft due for exactly this kind of editing:
> 
> *1/ *Next to the woman’s bench, hanging on a stone column is a large mahogany frame an arm span in either direction. Within it, sits a basic yet accurate map of the earth, and next to that is *2/ *a drawing of several golden arches, each labeled with a different name, and then another map, landforms and water shapes unrecognizable. It is labeled as Atlantis. *3/ *The map sparkles with random specs of gold.


*1/ *You need a comma after 'column'. The sentence loses me after 'arm', although you need a comma after 'frame'. I'm struggling to see the image. 'frame' is a bit nondescript and I have no visualisation of the shape, so therefore when you say 'span', a word that also has no sense of any real direction but rather more 'encompassing' (all directions), the idea of 'either direction' leaves me completely confused. What space is this shape occupying and in what direction is the 'either' referring to? Do you see what I mean? I couldn't even attempt to rewrite this for clarity. You need to be more specific with frame, span and then 'either direction' (West, East, South, North?) would make sense. Ok, having gone through it a few times now I'm going to assume 'figure' (body) for 'frame'. Yes? So we have a statue I think. Now that's starting to make sense. So the 'arm spanning' is in fact arms held out either side of the figure. But then it goes on to say 'within it' is a map of the world, so it can't be a figure ... What I've written above is what the reader will do when they hit this section in the story. Basically, it needs clarity. *2/* Always be specific if possible. Instead of 'several' give it a number. *3/ *You don't need 'random' there. Here is where being nonspecific can do some work. 'The map sparkles with specs of gold'. Because it's nonspecific, it's immediately visualised as random.


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## Ajoy

TheMightyAz said:


> *1/ *You need a comma after 'column'. The sentence loses me after 'arm', although you need a comma after 'frame'. I'm struggling to see the image. 'frame' is a bit nondescript and I have no visualisation of the shape, so therefore when you say 'span', a word that also has no sense of any real direction but rather more 'encompassing' (all directions), the idea of 'either direction' leaves me completely confused. What space is this shape occupying and in what direction is the 'either' referring to? Do you see what I mean? I couldn't even attempt to rewrite this for clarity. You need to be more specific with frame, span and then 'either direction' (West, East, South, North?) would make sense. Ok, having gone through it a few times now I'm going to assume 'figure' (body) for 'frame'. Yes? So we have a statue I think. Now that's starting to make sense. So the 'arm spanning' is in fact arms held out either side of the figure. But then it goes on to say 'within it' is a map of the world, so it can't be a figure ... What I've written above is what the reader will do when they hit this section in the story. Basically, it needs clarity. *2/* Always be specific if possible. Instead of 'several' give it a number. *3/ *You don't need 'random' there. Here is where being nonspecific can do some work. 'The map sparkles with specs of gold'. Because it's nonspecific, it's immediately visualised as random.



This is super helpful. This is one of those sections where there was so much wrong, I wasn't even sure where to start. Here's a revision (I know it still needs work, but I wanted to put an effort into responding to your main critiques):

A massive mahogany framed map hangs suspended between two white stone columns at the heart of the courtyard. It's nearly as long as the woman who lies beside it on a matching stone bench covered in pristine cushions. The images on the left portion of the map show a basic but accurate depiction of Earth. The center is filled with drawings of several golden arches, each stacked on top of the next, each with a tiny scroll of writing - labels, maybe. The space on the right side of the arches is filled with unrecognizable landforms and water shapes, but the cursive writing across the top of that section is clear. Atlantis. The entire map sparkles with specs of gold.


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## Olly Buckle

A map is not an accurate depiction, it is a flat representation of a globe, mind you, 'accurate' and a 'depiction'. I would chop down on the description, "The left side of the map shows the earth. 
A certain burger company have hammered the image 'Golden arches' so hard I would look for a way round that phrase. Then it gets too vague, 'Stacked on top of each other'. Do they slot over one another? Get smaller as they ascend
I take it it is the specs of gold that are important, so put them first, "Specks of gold sparkle across the whole map"

I am a 'Never use a five cent word when a one cent one will do' man , so depicts/ shows, entire/ whole, portion/ part,

'each with a tiny scroll of writing - labels, maybe', try 'each labelled minutely'. I know minute is longer than tiny, but you can't say tinyly, and 'minutely' implies something of the neat style of 'scroll'.

Oh, and is she lying on a stone bench, or on cushions which cover a stone bench? It would be easier to compare the length if the bench were in front of the map, beside leaves me doing a sort of comparative juggle in my head, in front the fit is obvious


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## Kent_Jacobs

Ajoy said:


> This is super helpful. This is one of those sections where there was so much wrong, I wasn't even sure where to start. Here's a revision (I know it still needs work, but I wanted to put an effort into responding to your main critiques):
> 
> *1/ *A massive mahogany framed map hangs suspended between two white stone columns at the heart of the courtyard. It's nearly as long as the woman who lies beside it on a matching stone bench *2/* covered in pristine cushions. The images on the left portion of the map show a basic but accurate depiction of Earth. The center is filled with drawings of several golden arches, each stacked on top of the next, each with a tiny scroll of writing - labels, maybe. The space on the right side of the arches is filled with unrecognizable landforms and water shapes, but the cursive writing across the top of that section is clear. Atlantis. *3/ *The entire map sparkles with specs of gold.


*Ok, second pass. 1/ I've mentioned how I visualise words and 'massive' is big but so big, it's beyond scope. I'd bring that down to the more realistic 'huge'. 2/ 'pristine' means 'in it's original condition'. If something hasn't changed its normal accepted state then we assume the state hasn't changed, therefore, pristine is an unnecessary word. If you simply put cushions, would anyone reading that wonder if they were in good condition? If you're going to modify 'cushions' add another dimension such 'plump', 'lavish' etc. 3/ You've removed one unnecessary word but added another. Think carefully about the wording and logic of a sentence. 'The map sparkles with specs of gold' is exactly the same as 'The entire map sparkles with specs of gold'. The only difference is, the second version makes it appear as if some maps in this world may only have specs of gold in a particular location on the map. We would say 'the ball was red'. We wouldn't say 'the entire ball was red'.  Unless you have something like: 'Unlike the other ball, with patches of red, this ball was entirely red'. Consider the 'assumption' first and only if it differs from the assumed, add in a qualifying. 'The** round** ball bounced down the steps' V 'The punctured ball bounced down the steps.' If you get this into your thinking, lots of unnecessary words will be lost.*


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## Ajoy

TheMightyAz said:


> *Ok, second pass. 1/ I've mentioned how I visualise words and 'massive' is big but so big, it's beyond scope. I'd bring that down to the more realistic 'huge'. 2/ 'pristine' means 'in it's original condition'. If something hasn't changed its normal accepted state then we assume the state hasn't changed, therefore, pristine is an unnecessary word. If you simply put cushions, would anyone reading that wonder if they were in good condition? If you're going to modify 'cushions' add another dimension such 'plump', 'lavish' etc. 3/ You've removed one unnecessary word but added another. Think carefully about the wording and logic of a sentence. 'The map sparkles with specs of gold' is exactly the same as 'The entire map sparkles with specs of gold'. The only difference is, the second version makes it appear as if some maps in this world may only have specs of gold in a particular location on the map. We would say 'the ball was red'. We wouldn't say 'the entire ball was red'.  Unless you have something like: 'Unlike the other ball, with patches of red, this ball was entirely red'. Consider the 'assumption' first and only if it differs from the assumed, add in a qualifying. 'The** round** ball bounced down the steps' V 'The punctured ball bounced down the steps.' If you get this into your thinking, lots of unnecessary words will be lost.*



Thanks for taking another pass. I appreciate your points about the words massive and pristine. I also like the advice about not adding in the assumed is a great mentality to apply in general. I need to think about what I want to do with the sparkly gold on the map (because it's plot relevant), but I'll take another crack at it tomorrow. 

I'm getting ready to do this sort of edit for my whole story (though not all of it is this far off - I pulled a part that has been nagging me on purpose).  But thinking about my word choice like this really helps me get my head in the right place!


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## Ajoy

Olly Buckle said:


> A map is not an accurate depiction, it is a flat representation of a globe, mind you, 'accurate' and a 'depiction'. I would chop down on the description, "The left side of the map shows the earth.
> A certain burger company have hammered the image 'Golden arches' so hard I would look for a way round that phrase. Then it gets too vague, 'Stacked on top of each other'. Do they slot over one another? Get smaller as they ascend
> I take it it is the specs of gold that are important, so put them first, "Specks of gold sparkle across the whole map"
> 
> I am a 'Never use a five cent word when a one cent one will do' man , so depicts/ shows, entire/ whole, portion/ part,
> 
> 'each with a tiny scroll of writing - labels, maybe', try 'each labelled minutely'. I know minute is longer than tiny, but you can't say tinyly, and 'minutely' implies something of the neat style of 'scroll'.
> 
> Oh, and is she lying on a stone bench, or on cushions which cover a stone bench? It would be easier to compare the length if the bench were in front of the map, beside leaves me doing a sort of comparative juggle in my head, in front the fit is obvious


Thanks for taking the time to look at this. I really appreciate the feedback, and will apply it to my next attempt!  It's funny because I thought the same thing about golden arches...probably a sign I should listen to those thoughts.


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## Ajoy

Here's the revised version: 

A map hangs, suspended between two white columns at the heart of the courtyard. The dark wood frame just longer than the woman stretched across a cushioned bench before it. Down the center, like the spine of a book, the map is divided by several minutely labelled arches, each formed by two curved and golden brush strokes. I recognize the continents and oceans of Earth under the scripted heading on one side. The other side is covered in unfamiliar landforms and waters. The heading calls it Atlantis, and tiny golden dots mark places across the landmasses of both it and Earth.


Note: for the purposes of the scene this came from, I was trying to stay removed from the first person POV, but I let one “I” through on this version.


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## Irwin

Ajoy said:


> Here's the revised version:
> 
> A map hangs, suspended between two white columns at the heart of the courtyard. The dark wood frame just longer than the woman stretched across a cushioned bench before it. Down the center, like the spine of a book, the map is divided by several minutely labelled arches, each formed by two curved and golden brush strokes. I recognize the continents and oceans of Earth under the scripted heading on one side. The other side is covered in unfamiliar landforms and waters. The heading calls it Atlantis, and tiny golden dots mark places across the landmasses of both it and Earth.
> 
> 
> Note: for the purposes of the scene this came from, I was trying to stay removed from the first person POV, but I let one “I” through on this version.


You have some punctuation errors (see the text in blue). Otherwise, it looks good!

A map hangs suspended between two white columns at the heart of the courtyard—the dark wood frame just longer than the woman stretched across a cushioned bench before it. Down the center, like the spine of a book, the map is divided by several minutely labelled arches, each formed by two curved and golden brush strokes. I recognize the continents and oceans of Earth under the scripted heading on one side. The other side is covered in unfamiliar landforms and waters. The heading calls it Atlantis, and tiny golden dots mark places across the landmasses of both it and Earth.


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## VRanger

Ajoy said:


> Thanks for taking another pass. I appreciate your points about the words massive and pristine. I also like the advice about not adding in the assumed is a great mentality to apply in general. I need to think about what I want to do with the sparkly gold on the map (because it's plot relevant), but I'll take another crack at it tomorrow.
> 
> I'm getting ready to do this sort of edit for my whole story (though not all of it is this far off - I pulled a part that has been nagging me on purpose).  But thinking about my word choice like this really helps me get my head in the right place!


These comments bring out a helpful topic ... superlatives.

They are innocuously easy to write, and ridiculously easy to overdo. There are three issues.

First, do you need a superlative at all? You're trying to sell the reader there is something here they MUST be impressed by. Most of the time, trying to do that with a superlative simply doesn't work. Use a better or more detailed description instead.

Second, are you using too MUCH of a superlative? Is something "titanic", or is it just 'large'? If you do use a superlative, getting the correct scope is important to keep the reader invested in the scene, rather than thinking, "Really??"

Third is overworked superlatives. In the early 20th century, the worst overworked superlative was "tremendous". You'd think it is in the realm of size, but it was used for everything. Today, it's "amazing". EVERYTHING is amazing. Blech.


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## Olly Buckle

*" 1/ I've mentioned how I visualise words and 'massive' is big but so big, it's beyond scope"

Mass is measured in units of weight, pounds and kilos, so 'massive' to me means heavy, it is not necessarily big, nor is big necessarily massive.*


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## Kent_Jacobs

Ajoy said:


> Thanks for taking another pass. I appreciate your points about the words massive and pristine. I also like the advice about not adding in the assumed is a great mentality to apply in general. I need to think about what I want to do with the sparkly gold on the map (because it's plot relevant), but I'll take another crack at it tomorrow.
> 
> I'm getting ready to do this sort of edit for my whole story (though not all of it is this far off - I pulled a part that has been nagging me on purpose).  But thinking about my word choice like this really helps me get my head in the right place!


The more you nail those little niggles, the less you have to correct in the edits.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Olly Buckle said:


> *" 1/ I've mentioned how I visualise words and 'massive' is big but so big, it's beyond scope"
> 
> Mass is measured in units of weight, pounds and kilos, so 'massive' to me means heavy, it is not necessarily big, nor is big necessarily massive.*


I was thinking specifically in terms of size and the writing up for critique, but you are right, and perhaps that's why it always pulls me up. It's the sort of word you see thrown around on YT channels, rather like 'awesome'.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Ajoy said:


> Here's the revised version:
> 
> A map hangs, suspended between two white columns at the heart of the courtyard. *1/* The dark wood frame just longer than the woman stretched across a cushioned bench before it. Down the center, like the spine of a book, the map is divided by several minutely labelled arches, each formed by two curved and golden brush strokes. I recognize the continents and oceans of Earth under the scripted heading on one side. The other side is covered in unfamiliar landforms and waters. The heading calls it Atlantis, *2/* and tiny golden dots mark places across the landmasses of both it and Earth.
> 
> 
> Note: for the purposes of the scene this came from, I was trying to stay removed from the first person POV, but I let one “I” through on this version.


*I'm going to give it one last pass! This is the 'process' and how I deal with my own work, so don't take it as an insult, please.  Now we're getting deeper into it and that shows how much it's improving. I've spoken of removing any word that is assumed, vranger has spoken of superlatives (a no way back position to take) and Olly has drilled down into the definition of 'massive', which should be applied to every word, but now 'specificity'.

1/ 'The dark wood frame ...' Instead of dark wood, find the name of that wood. For instance 'The mahogany frame ...'. 2/ 'tiny golden dots ...' Can dots be large? A dot is tiny, so 'tiny' is redundant. Other than that though, it's starting to look far tighter. 

Here's a nice vid on specificity:

*


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## VRanger

TheMightyAz said:


> *1/ 'The dark wood frame ...' Instead of dark wood, find the name of that wood. For instance 'The mahogany frame ...'. 2/ 'tiny golden dots ...' Can dots be large? A dot is tiny, so 'tiny' is redundant.
> 
> Other than that though, it's starting to look far tighter. *


We had a nice discussion on this subject a while back ...








						Choosing nouns
					


As I type this, MightyAz has an ongoing thread where he was unhappy with the choice of the word "clothes" in a sentence. He tried changing it out for words like "attire" or "outfit", but they weren't working, either. Mistwolf and I were in favor of sticking with "clothes".  In the same sentence...





					www.writingforums.com


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## Kent_Jacobs

I know that 'Anaphora' is repeating a word or phrase for emphasis but is there a specific name for repeating every other word, as in this example from Apparition:



> Each memory brightened his eyes and broadened his smile, and each smile brought him closer to Heather, closer to any person he’d ever met … even perhaps his father.


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## Ajoy

TheMightyAz said:


> *I'm going to give it one last pass! This is the 'process' and how I deal with my own work, so don't take it as an insult, please.  Now we're getting deeper into it and that shows how much it's improving. I've spoken of removing any word that is assumed, vranger has spoken of superlatives (a no way back position to take) and Olly has drilled down into the definition of 'massive', which should be applied to every word, but now 'specificity'.
> 
> 1/ 'The dark wood frame ...' Instead of dark wood, find the name of that wood. For instance 'The mahogany frame ...'. 2/ 'tiny golden dots ...' Can dots be large? A dot is tiny, so 'tiny' is redundant. Other than that though, it's starting to look far tighter.
> 
> Here's a nice vid on specificity:
> 
> *


Thanks for taking the time!  It's funny because I went back and forth about mahogany vs dark wood. Also, thanks for the link!


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## Kent_Jacobs

Ajoy said:


> Thanks for taking the time!  It's funny because I went back and forth about mahogany vs dark wood. Also, thanks for the link!


I can think of very few situations in which you'd want to be none specific, but there are some. For instance, if I was someone in a weakened, hazy state, and the story was written in third person limited. Then a little vagueness would convey the weakened, hazy state. But 99% of the time, specificity is better.


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## Ajoy

TheMightyAz said:


> I can think of very few situations in which you'd want to be none specific, but there are some. For instance, if I was someone in a weakened, hazy state, and the story was written in third person limited. Then a little vagueness would convey the weakened, hazy state. But 99% of the time, specificity is better.


That makes sense, and actually speaks to a question I still have... When writing first person POV, I try to filter everything through my character's thinking, and this means that I have sometimes specifically chosen a less specific or even less effective word. (I do it mostly in dialogue, but like to keep a hint of it throughout the internal thought as well, while still aiming for clarity).

One example that comes to mind is I (my character) described the 'butt end' of a sword. She would understand the word 'hilt', but would not likely use the word readily at first exposure to swords (because swords aren't a part of her life and thinking 'butt end' is more in line with the way she would talk or think). It's why I debated mahogany vs dark wood, and ultimately chose the latter (because my character probably wouldn't be able to specifically identify mahogany). That said, I don't think any reader would ever question my MC thinking of something as mahogany

So... when to use objectively better (more specific/accurate) words vs. phrasing more true to the character's thoughts?


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## Ajoy

TheMightyAz said:


> I know that 'Anaphora' is repeating a word or phrase for emphasis but is there a specific name for repeating every other word, as in this example from Apparition:


Would it also be 'Anaphora' since the first two clauses begin by using 'each'...or are you referring to the repetition of smile and closer as well? Clearly those are for emphasis as well - now I'm curious too!


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## Kent_Jacobs

Ajoy said:


> That makes sense, and actually speaks to a question I still have... When writing first person POV, I try to filter everything through my character's thinking, and this means that I have sometimes specifically chosen a less specific or even less effective word. (I do it mostly in dialogue, but like to keep a hint of it throughout the internal thought as well, while still aiming for clarity).
> 
> One example that comes to mind is I (my character) described the 'butt end' of a sword. She would understand the word 'hilt', but would not likely use the word readily at first exposure to swords (because swords aren't a part of her life and thinking 'butt end' is more in line with the way she would talk or think). It's why I debated mahogany vs dark would, and ultimately chose the latter (because my character probably wouldn't be able to specifically identify mahogany). That said, I don't think any reader would ever question my MC thinking of something as mahogany
> 
> So... when to use objectively better (more specific/accurate) words vs. phrasing more true to the character's thoughts?


I can see your point and loyalty to the chosen POV in third person limited seems commendable, but I can guarantee, it won't be seen that way by a single reader, editor or publisher. We can't know everything about the character so it's fine to interject on their behalf with things like 'mahogany' instead of 'dark wood'. Her ignorance should be relative to something important. This is a choice between clear prose expressing exactly what you want versus muddy prose conveying what the protagonist doesn't know. The choice is an easy one. 100% detail is more important.


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## Ajoy

TheMightyAz said:


> Her ignorance should be relative to something important.


This point is extremely helpful.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Ajoy said:


> This point is extremely helpful.


It's in the verbs and nouns when you're thinking of flavouring the prose with the protags point of view.

1: Thomson *sipped* Cheval Blanc from a fluted glass.
2: Charlie *gulped *Carling from a can.

And how would they see the world? A positive person would see a red sky differently from a cynical person, so the words used should convey that.


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## Phil Istine

Ajoy said:


> That makes sense, and actually speaks to a question I still have... When writing first person POV, I try to filter everything through my character's thinking, and this means that I have sometimes specifically chosen a less specific or even less effective word. (I do it mostly in dialogue, but like to keep a hint of it throughout the internal thought as well, while still aiming for clarity).
> 
> One example that comes to mind is I (my character) described the 'butt end' of a sword. She would understand the word 'hilt', but would not likely use the word readily at first exposure to swords (because swords aren't a part of her life and thinking 'butt end' is more in line with the way she would talk or think). It's why I debated mahogany vs dark would, and ultimately chose the latter (because my character probably wouldn't be able to specifically identify mahogany). That said, I don't think any reader would ever question my MC thinking of something as mahogany
> 
> So... when to use objectively better (more specific/accurate) words vs. phrasing more true to the character's thoughts?


That filtering through the character's senses sounds good to me.  With no previous exposure to a sword the character might use 'handle', but that might sound a bit lame.  If you're stepping back into narrator mode, using the proper names probably works, but using the focal character's frame of reference (perspective) probably keeps a reader better engaged.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Phil Istine said:


> That filtering through the character's senses sounds good to me.  With no previous exposure to a sword the character might use 'handle', but that might sound a bit lame.  If you're stepping back into narrator mode, using the proper names probably works, but using the focal character's frame of reference (perspective) probably keeps a reader better engaged.


That to me is one of the most difficult things to achieve. It's another level of thinking when writing a story. What to include and what not to include, based on the POV. It's probably easier to write in first person in this regard.


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## Phil Istine

If carried out well it can turn a cardboard cutout character into a three-dimensional being.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Phil Istine said:


> If carried out well it can turn a cardboard cutout character into a three-dimensional being.


I think it can help drive you through the prose if you can get it right. I've been lax over the last three weeks and done nothing with Apparition other than tinker. There was something I couldn't put my finger on. I liked the feel of it, liked the grit of the language, like the general flow, but something was missing and it wasn't until Sunday that it dawned on me. In every story I've written, I painted the prose from the protagonist's perspective, but in this story I haven't. I think the reason for that is I made him a writer first and a personality second. I can use words associated with a cynic, an optimist, a coward, a hero etc, but what does a 'writer' sound like? It's quite a generic pointer when you think of it. 'Writer' could be anything ... and there's the problem.


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## Riptide

Let me give this a go, then. I have some descriptions I want to iron out. I'm trying to focus on one or two peculiar details instead of large paint brush splatter of description.

Does it go on too long? Too many adjectives? Too convoluted? 

---

He guided them to a path that changed from dirt to a sun-kissed brick walkway. When they passed the hedges that surrounded the Quad, the place seemed to have warped into something else entirely.

Clair tripped over her feet to capture the entirety of what they were seeing. Rikki kept eyes on one thing, and one thing only: the football stadium long tub of water that stretched the length of what she deemed as the Wizard’s Paradise. A concrete mountain was placed center of the tub where an assortment of taxidermized animals climbed, spouting streams that fed into the main basin. Rikki focused on the critters that hung off the rocks, shadowed by the more violent and powerful predators. It was them she appreciated, the underdogs in appearance, and she wanted to reach out to pet one. At the end of the path, dazzling orange lights imbued in the pinnacles of two thin towers that flanked the most articulate building in the lot. It looked, to all of Rikki’s knowledge, like a massive Victorian library, but with kids spilling out of it instead of books.


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## VRanger

I'm not going to rewrite, because you need to do that for the experience, but I'll point out some things that don't work for me as a reader (not as a fellow writer), and why:


Riptide said:


> He guided them to a path that changed from dirt to a sun-kissed brick walkway. When they passed the hedges that surrounded the Quad, the place seemed to have warped into something else entirely.
> 
> Clair tripped over her feet to capture the entirety of what they were seeing.


* needs a better image of your idea. The way it's worded, you're saying she did it intentionally. You need content indicating she wasn't watching where she stepped, so she stumbled.



Riptide said:


> Rikki kept eyes on one thing, and one thing only: the football stadium long tub of water that stretched the length of what she deemed as the Wizard’s Paradise.


WAY over modified. You're trying to squeeze too much into one description, plus you need to know the rule for adding dashes to a string of modifiers. (If each one individually doesn't sound correct with only it and the noun, you need the dash). "tub of water" doesn't do anything to paint a picture for me. 



Riptide said:


> A concrete mountain was placed center of the tub where an assortment of taxidermized animals climbed, spouting streams that fed into the main basin.


Another sentence where you're just trying to do too much in one sentence, and "taxidermized" is the verb usage, not the adjective usage - taxidermied.



Riptide said:


> Rikki focused on the critters that hung off the rocks, shadowed by the more violent and powerful predators. It was them she appreciated, the underdogs in appearance, and she wanted to reach out to pet one. At the end of the path, dazzling orange lights imbued in the pinnacles of two thin towers that flanked the most articulate building in the lot.


The "At" ... "lot." sentence is awkward. Again, trying to do too much in one sentence.



Riptide said:


> It looked, to all of Rikki’s knowledge, like a massive Victorian library, but with kids spilling out of it instead of books.


Do books spill out of a library? They fill it, but "spill out" seems forced and inaccurate.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Riptide said:


> Let me give this a go, then. I have some descriptions I want to iron out. I'm trying to focus on one or two peculiar details instead of large paint brush splatter of description.
> 
> Does it go on too long? Too many adjectives? Too convoluted?
> 
> ---
> 
> *1/* He guided them to a path that changed from dirt to a sun-kissed brick walkway. When they passed the hedges that surrounded the Quad, *2/ *the place seemed to have warped into something else entirely.



*1/* *I'm not always keen on obvious words like 'changed'. There's nothing inherently wrong with it and it's straight to the point but for some reason I always try to find a less invasive switch. This is a me thing though. 'changed from dirt to sun-kissed brick walkway'. Because the adjectives are specifically applied to the 'brick walkway', the image I get as I scan this sentence, suggests the sun appeared only upon the brick walkway. It wasn't on the dirt but it was on the walkway. 'He guided them to a path that changed from sun-kissed dirt to a brick walkway' clears that up. You could still argue, because you've applied the 'sun-kissed' to the dirt that the brick walkway was devoid of sun but it's a harder case to make and most people will apply it automatically to both. 2/ 'warped' bent out of shape. Is that the word you were looking for? Or is it something akin to 'transformed'? Is there a big difference between 'something else' and 'something else entirely'? *



Riptide said:


> *1/ *Clair tripped over her feet to capture the entirety of what they were seeing. Rikki kept eyes on one thing, and one thing only:  the football stadium long tub of water that stretched the length of what she deemed as the Wizard’s Paradise. *2/ *A concrete mountain was placed center of the tub where an assortment of taxidermized animals climbed, spouting streams that fed into the main basin. *3/* Rikki focused on the critters that hung off the rocks, shadowed by the more violent and powerful predators. *4/* It was them she appreciated, the underdogs in appearance, and she wanted to reach out to pet one. *5/* At the end of the path, dazzling orange lights imbued in the pinnacles of two thin towers that flanked the most articulate building in the lot. *6/ *It looked, to all of Rikki’s knowledge, like a massive Victorian library, but with kids spilling out of it instead of books.


*1/ I have to assume here this is an urban fantasy, and this only jumps out because I've not read the context. It's just odd to see a football stadium mentioned in a fantasy. I'm not sure, and hopefully someone more versed in grammar can help you out, but isn't 'football-stadium' as an adjective needs hyphenating? I could be wrong there. I hope I'm reading that correctly and that you're likening the size to a football stadium because my next thought is 'tub'. Can you have a football stadium long 'tub'? A tub is small, a bath would be bigger, but neither are stadium sized (or long) or would ever be called tub or bath if they were. There is a lot you can cut down on. 'of what they were' and 'of what she deemed' for instance. Rather than using 'filler' words such as 'seeing' and 'kept eyes on', perhaps simply describing what they saw is enough. 2/ 'was placed centre of the tub (pool)' is a long winded way of simply stating 'a concrete mountain, in the centre of the pool ...' 'Taxidermized animals'. Just go with 'stuffed' there. That's an awkward word. Here though, I'd want more specifics. Which animals? Give us three or four. 3/ Again, I'd want more specifics. What critters? What predators? 4/ 'was them' and underdogs in appearance.' They're underdogs and that's all that matters. 'These she appreciated. The underdogs she wished to pet.' 5/ 'imbued' is a word suggesting in possession of, not radiating from. I'm having a hard time parsing this sentence. I'll take a stab at rewriting it how I think you meant it to look: 'At the end of the path, dazzling orange lights sparked atop two thin towers, flanking the most articulate building of them all.' 6/ Do we need to be told the description is from Rikki's POV? Do books 'spill from libraries'? I can see you're trying to add in movement for the children there with the verb 'spill' but you've also associated it with books. 'It looked like a grand Victorian library, but filled with children, not books.'

I don't think there's too much here. I just think the language is often convoluted, veering towards passive. A few places I think you need to be more specific and a lot of places you need to go straight to the description without associating it to a person or the senses. In most cases you don't need a character looking at something, you just need to describe that something. Same with all the senses. *


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## Taylor

TheMightyAz said:


> Each memory brightened his eyes and broadened his smile, and each smile brought him closer to Heather, closer to any person he’d ever met … even perhaps his father.



It makes for a strong sentence.   Just wondering about the second closer.   Do you mean, closer *than *to any person he'd ever met?    But that's a bit awkward.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Taylor said:


> It makes for a strong sentence.   Just wondering about the second closer.   Do you mean, closer *than *to any person he'd ever met?    But that's a bit awkward.


I don't think there's a need to add 'than' there. It's about the speed it's read and the rhythm it creates. The emphasis is on the very last section of that 'closer to any person he'd ever met ... perhaps even his father.' The 'than' smooths it and removes the punch. He's not saying 'Sarah', his wife, he's saying 'his father'. I wanted that to have punch.

But the main reason for posting that is to ask if there's a term for it.

edit: I'll try to explain in clearer terms by writing the sentence how I want it read:

Each memory brightened his eyes and broadened his smile*, and* (coma 'and' = long pause, slowing the pace from the opening statement) each smile brought him closer to Heather*/*closer to any person (no pause at all and putting an emphasis on the thought of closer to as if a revelation) he’d ever met *…* (A little consideration before finally deciding 'father' and not 'Sarah') even perhaps his father.

Putting 'than' in there, pauses it slightly and doesn't mirror the previous statement exactly. 'closer to/closer to'. 'closer to/closer than to'. See how it hangs slightly?


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## Matchu

‘Sense’ is lost without _than_.

But then again the idea of memories brightening his eyes and broadening his smile, the idea of smiles bringing him closer to ‘Heather’ is of itself senseless.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Matchu said:


> ‘Sense’ is lost without _than_.
> 
> But then again the idea of memories brightening his eyes and broadening his smile, the idea of smiles bringing him closer to ‘Heather’ is of itself senseless.


He's going through her memories in his own head. They exist within him. Her smile isn't just a smile, it's his experience too now. It's beyond empathy.


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## Matchu

Okay I’ll butt out.  Probably he has her soul inside him or somf...

I was thinking in terms of a man considering the delights of his partner & the partnership and lips stretching to earlobes in ecstatic - frame.  Eyes twinkling until they ignited, popped and burned his face off in such love.

Sometimes we get caught up in the wordage - end up reaching into allusion toward parody...dangers...

tap tap

when it sounds good but non-sense = nonsense.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Matchu said:


> Okay I’ll butt out.  Probably he has her soul inside him or somf...
> 
> I was thinking in terms of a man considering the delights of his partner & the partnership and lips reaching to earlobes in ecstatic - frame.  Eyes twinkling until they ignited, popped and burned his face off in such love.
> 
> Sometimes we get caught up in the wordage - end up stretching allusion into parody...dangers...
> 
> tap tap


Well the question associated with that snippet was:

*I know that 'Anaphora' is repeating a word or phrase for emphasis but is there a specific name for repeating every other word, as in this example from Apparition.*

I wasn't asking for critique of that sentence, just what the technique was called. The context of the complete paragraph, plus the paragraph before and after, makes it clear what is meant. If I had wanted critique of that sentence, then I'd have given it the context. I'd have to, otherwise we'd have conversations like this LOL.



> As a mourner then he leant into Heather’s memories. There would be no poor farewell, no tears, just celebration. He smiled as she played fetch with Scamp her puppy, lashed a spinning-top on the pavement, gave voice to the small figurines in her doll’s house, and swung daringly high on the swing at the park. Each memory brightened his eyes and broadened his smile, and each smile brought him closer to Heather, closer to any person he’d ever met … even perhaps his father.


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## Matchu

I only saw the three or four posts where @Taylor says ‘you might insert a than?’ and you said it was okay because the reader will be reading so fast they don’t need a than.

And then I read about a smile getting wider and wider each time and I tried to do it myself and I can manage maybe two or three stretches but that’s all.

I’m sorry I said the wrong thing on the thread.


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## VRanger

TheMightyAz said:


> He's going through her memories in his own head. They exist within him. Her smile isn't just a smile, it's his experience too now. It's beyond empathy.


First, any time an author has to explain what they wrote, they've already blown it. That's what the original text is for. However, what we're missing here is context, since it's a single sentence. Is it bringing him closer to HER THAN everyone else, or is it bringing him closer TO EVERYONE? "Than" versus "to" gives the sentence a widely different meaning. I think, like Taylor, most people are going to assume the first, and think the "to" is out of place, unless the surrounding context clears it up.

However, get over any notion that "the reader is reading too fast to notice". How do you know? The answer is, you don't. Added to that, you're setting yourself these exercises with your word poem goal. It's like reading molasses. The verbiage is sometimes so thick I don't think anyone is reading it all that fast. LOL (At least I'm not, and I'm a fast reader).

Next on a different subject, when I proof myself, why do I often leave "ing" off the end of "bringing" just because one "ing" was already there? I don't do it with "singing" or "clinging" or "wringing" ... just bringing. ;-/


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## Kent_Jacobs

vranger said:


> First, any time an author has to explain what they wrote, they've already blown it. That's what the original text is for. However, what we're missing here is context, since it's a single sentence. Is it bringing him closer to HER THAN everyone else, or is it bringing him closer TO EVERYONE? "Than" versus "to" gives the sentence a widely different meaning. I think, like Taylor, most people are going to assume the first, and think the "to" is out of place, unless the surrounding context clears it up.
> 
> Next on a different subject, when I proof myself, why do I often leave "ing" off the end of "bringing" just because one "ing" was already there? I don't do it with "singing" or "clinging" or "wringing" ... just bringing. ;-/


Maybe you can actually answer the question I asked:

I know that 'Anaphora' is repeating a word or phrase for emphasis but is there a specific name for repeating every other word, as in this example from Apparition:



> Each memory brightened his eyes and broadened his smile, and each smile brought him closer to Heather, closer to any person he’d ever met … even perhaps his father.



I do actually take the point. And I'm not going to completely ignore it in future rewrites. I was only explaining my intentions with the sentence. But that was beside the point and not the reason for posting.

edit: In fact, I keep reading it and think I will actually add in a 'than'. I'll just have to accept it spoils the punch slightly but there is some confusion there. Seeing as it's been pulled up, I might as well go over it more thoroughly:



> Each memory brightened his eyes and broadened his smile, and each smile brought him closer to Heather, closer to her than any person he’d ever met … even perhaps his father.



Better?


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## VRanger

TheMightyAz said:


> edit: In fact, I keep reading it and think I will actually add in a 'than'. I'll just have to accept it spoils the punch slightly but there is some confusion there.


I don't know the answer to your original question, which is why I didn't reply to that, but I do know about this sentence. This notion of the "punch" of that sentence is entirely in your headspace, not your reader's. Individually, they're not hearing your inner voice--they're reading with their own. So, the priority is clarity. Whatever else you do is OK as long as the reader accurately understands your thought.


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## Kent_Jacobs

vranger said:


> I don't know the answer to your original question, which is why I didn't reply to that, but I do know about this sentence. This notion of the "punch" of that sentence is entirely in your headspace, not your reader's. Individually, they're not hearing your inner voice--they're reading with their own. So, the priority is clarity. Whatever else you do is OK as long as the reader accurately understands your thought.


I was discussing on the premise it sounded awkward, not that it was grammatically incorrect. I know you know a hell of a lot about grammar and Taylor does too, so explain to me in as simple terms as you can, why it's grammatically incorrect to not add the 'than'.

I can actually 'feel' it's wrong now I've read it a dozen times but can't put my finger on why.

edit: OK, so what you're saying is it's the difference between the protag feeling closer to her V everyone else feeling closer to her. Is that right? The inclusion of 'than' makes it clearer I'm referring to the protag ... right? Give me some grammar tips, damn it!

edit 2: The only problem is, not a single grammar checker I put it through flags it as wrong.

edit 3: LOL. Or is it just simply 'closer to any person he'd ever met' could be seen as it brought him closer, not only to Heather, but everyone else too? I'm closer ... right? The grammar checker wouldn't flag that as wrong so I'm guessing that's the problem.


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## VRanger

TheMightyAz said:


> I was discussing on the premise it sounded awkward, not that it was grammatically incorrect. I know you know a hell of a lot about grammar and Taylor does too, so explain to me in as simple terms as you can, why it's grammatically incorrect to not add the 'than'.


It's not a matter of grammar, it's a matter of meaning. "Than" means he's closer to her THAN anyone else, so just her. "To" means he's closer to everyone he knows, not only her. So I'm not saying "to" is wrong, just that it makes a difference in the scope of your thought, and you pick one or the other depending on that scope. (And in the case you use "to", you may need additional context to insure it's clear).


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## Kent_Jacobs

vranger said:


> It's not a matter of grammar, it's a matter of meaning. "Than" means he's closer to her THAN anyone else, so just her. "To" means he's closer to everyone he knows, not only her. So I'm not saying "to" is wrong, just that it makes a difference in the scope of your thought, and you pick one or the other depending on that scope. (And in the case you use "to", you may need additional context to insure it's clear).


OK, so edit 3 was right then. Got it.


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## Taylor

TheMightyAz said:


> OK, so edit 3 was right then. Got it.


Sorry AZ, I fell asleep last night and missed the end of this discussion, but a worthy one I think for the subject of ‘craft’.  Glad that vranger was able to step in and bring some validity to the topic of “meaning”. What we mean to say is a big part of our craft.  One that editors cannot decide for us. 

I was reminded of the days I was involved with public policy or writing laws.  It’s all about intent.  What did the policy-makers intend and will it stand up in a court of law?

The first draft is typically sent to 10-20 reviewers for comment.  And even though grammatically perfect at this point, when the document comes back it is so marked up with comments and suggested wording, you can’t even recognize it.   Next, it goes out for public comment as a bill.  There it gets tested again, and then back to the drafter for revision. 

And finally, once it passes through the house and receives royal assent it becomes a law.  And guess what?  There are still mistakes with respect to intent or meaning.  Crafty lawyers and accountants interpret the law to benefit their clients.  If they succeed, it can cause the public to lose millions of dollars.  We call that a  ‘loophole’.  While not what the policy-makers intended, it is perfectly legal.  

The craft of writing is allusive indeed!


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## Kent_Jacobs

So, here's an interesting one. As most people know by now, I like to experiment. One of my approaches when experimenting is to deliberately break rules. In my short story 'The Story' I deliberately set out to break the rule about 'specificity' to see if I could still craft something interesting. In this piece I'm deliberately breaking the rule of not being too 'figurative'. The question I want answering isn't 'don't be figurative, be more specific and concrete', the questions is 'Do you see what I want you to see?' Just like my Coats For Wings, this is an experiment in poetic prose, but turned up a notch or two.

edit: That sounds too specific. Feel free to critique as normal. I just need people to understand the 'figurative' aspects are deliberate.



> The street calls. It draws me through shades to shadows, from shadows to darkness, like the mould in the corner of a lilac room, lost to all but the hand that dares a touch. It’s just rot isn’t it? Something that ‘was’, now shrivelled to nothing. Still, it calls.
> 
> Narrower as I travel, rot my destination. I think. For all the bleakness and bleed, the something that ‘was’ warms me inside. Not chilling my steps or turning me towards the light.
> 
> Windows doze. Hands pass over their light to waking lamps. I am but a suit, stretched, shrunk, and thinned, a clip in the quiet. Glassy eyes mewl from a bin lid, clatter away as I pass. Music hums through bricks, its pulse a dulled throb. Cinema screens crackle with today’s news. Walls lean in to listen, my lips unrewarding.
> 
> I pinch the thread of an alley and pull.


----------



## Anamable

TheMightyAz said:


> Ok, so I'm trying something. I have been told if this is reasonably successful, a subforum could be made for it. So, please, try to keep it on topic.
> 
> The idea is to have a section purely for craft and nothing else. We have a section for grammar and we have the Writing Workshop section, but that section is really for short stories and novels. Yes you get critique there on style and craft but it's not specifically for craft and is such a broad church of critique, it doesn't lend itself well to nailing down craft alone. I hope this thread does just that. Other forums have a section like this so I see no reason we couldn't have one here too. From a quick scout around, they're popular.
> 
> So what's it about? Instead of posting whole stories or large sections of stories, you post a sentence or a paragraph (or three). Something you're not happy with and want to know how to improve. You could also ask for help with better word choice, better structuring, any number of craft related things. I've already done this a couple of times with things like my 'is this mournful?' thread but never really felt it fitted here well. I think a focused subforum would be helpful for a lot of people.


I'm new to writing, hence not very skilled but here's a snippet of my most recent story:


Numbness. A feeling of feeling nothing at all. All of us might have felt it at some point of time. But do you know when numbness is at it’s worst?
When you’re suppose to have a raging tornado of emotions swirling inside you, but there’s only a void, a disconnect.
This is how I felt then, sitting in the waiting room of the ‘Wellness Hospital’. Weird, pungent hospital smell assaulted my senses. I’ve not been to many hospitals before, never liked them. I wasn’t sure if there was something ominous about the room I was nestled in or I just felt that way because it was a hospital. Tipping my head backwards, I stared at the hospital ceiling, which was whiter than the snow. The walls too were coated in the same color. The ticking of the wall clock was magnified by silence. As each second passed, my stomach felt heavier. Serena was fighting for her life in another room of the same corridor where I sat.
Fighting for her life.
The thought made the hair on my nape shoot up. Shock of this incident was such that it had sapped me of all emotions. And all that was left was numbness. Spine chilling, terrifying numbness. Feeling restless, I shuffled in my seat. My skin felt cold against the metal chair, rows of them occupied the entire room. My right leg was shaking incessantly, it always did when I felt anxious.


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## Matchu

That’s a nice couple of paragraphs. 

 If it was my draft  I would shift the ‘you’ and ‘us’ toward ‘I’ up at the beginning - and allow the reader to share the sensation that way, let them nod their heads...

Later on, a string of verbs - magnified - being one of them, I’d remove the ‘was’ from all 3.

see you


----------



## VRanger

Matchu made a good point about the linking verbs (copulas): was, were--essentially any form of "to be". Your piece of prose is very effective, but eliminating a few of those will spice it up--plus, some agents will ding you if the prose has too many. I'm going to disagree on Matchu, however, with "was magnified". I thought that sentence *was *(haha) quite evocative, and I don't see a fix for "was" which gives it the same feeling.

However, "was fighting" can be "fought". "The same color *coated *the walls". The sentence beginning "I wasn't sure" has four of them ... a bit weighty with the "to be's". So you'll wind up with what's called a "copular spider." See the image below.

Often a copula will be followed by a verb with "ing", as noted above in "was fighting", so you simply eliminate "was" and "ing" and it's fixed.

"was shaking" to "*shook*" is another example.

Sometimes you can get rid of it completely: Shock of this incident was such that it had sapped me of all emotions.

Sometimes you can simply replace the copula with a better verb. For example with "This is how I felt then", you could have "This illustrates how I felt then". By the way, I'm not saying "illustrate" is the best replacement choice there. That's a situation where I'm likely to fire up thesaurus.com and dig for the word I like best.

You don't have to replace ALL of the copulas, you just don't want to leave something like that diagram down there.  Some of them will provide the mood you seek better than more active verbs.

However, overall that's a nice piece ... nice sentence structure outside of what I discussed, good flow, and it sets your mood. And frankly, I could live with most of those copulas for a section of prose only that long, but if you don't pay attention, you can wind up doing that for the whole book, and then you'd wind up having to fix hundreds of them in revision.  I've looked at manuscripts from hopeful writers where the manuscript is filled with them, even in action scenes, and the narration eventually falls flat.


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## Kent_Jacobs

> *1/* Numbness. A feeling of feeling nothing at all. All of us might have felt it at some point of time. But do you know when numbness is at it’s worst? *2/* When you’re suppose to have a raging tornado of emotions swirling inside you, but there’s only a void, a disconnect.



*1/* *First of all, 'numbness' isn't what you call a first line grabber, although, it's so short, the second sentence could also be included in that grabber. In this case, even with both it's not what you would call a grabber. Now that's out of the way, the craft: 'A feeling of feeling nothing at all.' Even if it isn't an overly complex sentence, it feels like one simply because of the one word sentence preceding it. I'd write it like this, in keeping with the opening sentence: 'Numbness. Feeling nothing.' Not only does it fit in with the first one word sentence, but it creates a nice 'build' towards the third sentence.  Short/Medium/long: Da ... Da Da ... Da Da Da DA! 2/ You've asked a question in the fourth sentence and answered it immediately in the next paragraph. Because it's directly related to the question, I'd include it in the first paragraph. *



> This is how I felt then, sitting in the waiting room of the ‘Wellness Hospital’. *1/* Weird, pungent hospital smell assaulted my senses. *2/* I’ve not been to many hospitals before, never liked them. *3/ *I wasn’t sure if there was something ominous about the room I was nestled in or I just felt that way because it was a hospital. *4/ *Tipping my head backwards, I stared at the hospital ceiling, which was whiter than the snow. *5/ *The walls too were coated in the same color. *6/* The ticking of the wall clock was magnified by silence. As each second passed, my stomach felt heavier. *7/* Serena was fighting for her life in another room of the same corridor where I sat.
> Fighting for her life.



*1/ 'Weird' is a weak verb. It tells us nothing about the smell. 'Pungent' is better, so lead with that: 'A pungent hospital smell ...'. You've established we're in a hospital and so 'hospital' can be eliminated from the sentence. 'A pungent smell assaulted my senses.' The problem with that sentence is you've had to use the plural of 'sense'. The problem arose because you'd already used 'smell' and have associated the sense directly to the protag. There's no need for that. When writing in 1st or 3rd person, anything related to sight/sound/smell/touch/taste can simply be described: 'A pungent odour filled the wards' for instance. 2/ 'never liked them' is separate from the first statement and modifying it slightly, so I'd use a semicolon there, not a comma. But, in keeping with the style you used in the opening line, I'd want to write: 'I haven't been to many hospitals before. Never liked them.' I find 'I've not been' a tad awkward sounding. 3/ 'I wasn't sure' It's akin to using words like 'almost', 'nearly', 'as if'. I'm just taking the opportunity to point that out. In this case it's OK. As others have already pointed out, you use a hell of a lot of 'was' here and elsewhere. Those loosen the prose and make it feel flimsy, as well as including unnecessary repetition. I'm not certain about the word 'nestled' there. I'm going to guess you've actually chosen that word carefully to give the impression of timorousness. It's a word you can build around for this sentence and feeling, while also getting rid of those 'was's. Because I don't think it's necessary to use 'I wasn't sure', I'd go with something like 'It felt ominous, nestled in the corridor.' You don't need to keep reminding the reader you're in a hospital. 4/ 'Tipping my head backwards, I stared at the hospital ceiling' If you looked at the ceiling, you tipped your head back so that's self evident. We know we're in a hospital: 'I stared at the ceiling.' I'd move the description of colour into one sentence and remove that cliche 'white as snow'. KILL IT DEAD! 5/ 'coated with' is over the top there. 'painted' is a perfectly good word. You're in a hospital and you're feeling an ominousness. Instead of simply thinking of the white as a colour, think of it in relation to that feeling. This is where I may use a little symbolism. If you use 'glossy white' but note a patch of mould in one corner, you could suggest hospitals conceal the truth with their pristine look and antiseptic smell, while at the heart of it (the mould = YOU) knows it's not the case. It's up to you how you express that though. 6/ 'magnified' is usually associated with scale, although time as a concept could possibly be described in terms of scale. Here though, you've focused in on the ticks. We can also get rid of that 'was'. We haven't been introduced to the clock before and it isn't something we assume is in a hospital corridor, so it should be 'a clock'. If you refer back to it at some point, THEN you can use 'the': 'A wall clock intensified the silence.' 7/ What sort of a ward was she in? Of course you're going to be in the corridor where her ward would be, and you don't have to repeat she's fighting for her life. We can also get rid of that 'was' again: 'Serena fought for her life in intensive care.' *



> *1/ *The thought made the hair on my nape shoot up. *2/ *Shock of this incident was such that it had sapped me of all emotions. And all *3/ *that was left was numbness. Spine chilling, terrifying numbness. *4/* Feeling restless, I shuffled in my seat. *5/* My skin felt cold against the metal chair, rows of them occupied the entire room. *6/* My right leg was shaking incessantly, it always did when I felt anxious.



*1/ 'shoot up'. It's a bit colloquial for your needs and doesn't necessarily create the right image. Use a simpler, more relevant way of describing it: 'The thought made the hair on my neck bristle.' 2/ I know exactly what you're doing when you write sentences like this because I used to do it too. You've got nothing in your head but the idea you want to convey, and so you begin the sentence and guide yourself through the maze of thinking until you arrive at the end. Trial the sentence in your head a few times before you place it down. Eventually, you'll do it without thought. This is a perfect example of it. 'of this incident', 'was such', 'that it has sapped'. All of that happened because you didn't have a structure already in mind. It's awkward. I'm having to look at this and think carefully about how I want to restructure it. I'm not just doing this easily.  It takes a little more thought, that's all. I'm not a lover of 'emotions' there but because you've used the plural, the reader is going to try and think of what 'emotions' you mean. If you simply say 'emotion', then we immediately get the idea of 'no outward expression of concern', 'NUMB'. So, with all that taken into consideration: 'Shock sapped me of emotion.' It's up to you to square this with your early claim of it feeling 'ominous'. Personally, I'd reconsider the early descriptions of his emotions, and run with this numbness. 3/ I'd bring this into the previous sentence and simplify: 'Shock sapped me of emotion, leaving me numb and terrified.' Although, once again, consider 'terrified'. That's an emotion ... right? If he's numb with no emotion, he can't feel terrified: 'Shock sapped me of emotion, leaving me numb.' 4/ NOW he's 'restless'! That numbness is feeling mighty throwaway at this point but I like it so would work with it. Give us a lead up to this change, of him moving from a state of numbness to feeling 'restless'. One extra sentence transitioning between the two. Don't use 'suddenly'!!!!! 5/ I thought he was in the corridor? This is two sentences separated by a comma. Just lose the second part. At this late point we don't need to know how the chairs are set out. You've moved us through an emotional scene. Describe something like this before you ask the reader to go on an emotional journey with you. 6/ 'My right leg shook. It always did when I felt anxious.'.*


----------



## Anamable

TheMightyAz said:


> *1/* *First of all, 'numbness' isn't what you call a first line grabber, although, it's so short, the second sentence could also be included in that grabber. In this case, even with both it's not what you would call a grabber. Now that's out of the way, the craft: 'A feeling of feeling nothing at all.' Even if it isn't an overly complex sentence, it feels like one simply because of the one word sentence preceding it. I'd write it like this, in keeping with the opening sentence: 'Numbness. Feeling nothing.' Not only does it fit in with the first one word sentence, but it creates a nice 'build' towards the third sentence.  Short/Medium/long: Da ... Da Da ... Da Da Da DA! 2/ You've asked a question in the fourth sentence and answered it immediately in the next paragraph. Because it's directly related to the question, I'd include it in the first paragraph. *
> 
> 
> 
> *1/ 'Weird' is a weak verb. It tells us nothing about the smell. 'Pungent' is better, so lead with that: 'A pungent hospital smell ...'. You've established we're in a hospital and so 'hospital' can be eliminated from the sentence. 'A pungent smell assaulted my senses.' The problem with that sentence is you've had to use the plural of 'sense'. The problem arose because you'd already used 'smell' and have associated the sense directly to the protag. There's no need for that. When writing in 1st or 3rd person, anything related to sight/sound/smell/touch/taste can simply be described: 'A pungent odour filled the wards' for instance. 2/ 'never liked them' is separate from the first statement and modifying it slightly, so I'd use a semicolon there, not a comma. But, in keeping with the style you used in the opening line, I'd want to write: 'I haven't been to many hospitals before. Never liked them.' I find 'I've not been' a tad awkward sounding. 3/ 'I wasn't sure' It's akin to using words like 'almost', 'nearly', 'as if'. I'm just taking the opportunity to point that out. In this case it's OK. As others have already pointed out, you use a hell of a lot of 'was' here and elsewhere. Those loosen the prose and make it feel flimsy, as well as including unnecessary repetition. I'm not certain about the word 'nestled' there. I'm going to guess you've actually chosen that word carefully to give the impression of timorousness. It's a word you can build around for this sentence and feeling, while also getting rid of those 'was's. Because I don't think it's necessary to use 'I wasn't sure', I'd go with something like 'It felt ominous, nestled in the corridor.' You don't need to keep reminding the reader you're in a hospital. 4/ 'Tipping my head backwards, I stared at the hospital ceiling' If you looked at the ceiling, you tipped your head back so that's self evident. We know we're in a hospital: 'I stared at the ceiling.' I'd move the description of colour into one sentence and remove that cliche 'white as snow'. KILL IT DEAD! 5/ 'coated with' is over the top there. 'painted' is a perfectly good word. You're in a hospital and you're feeling an ominousness. Instead of simply thinking of the white as a colour, think of it in relation to that feeling. This is where I may use a little symbolism. If you use 'glossy white' but note a patch of mould in one corner, you could suggest hospitals conceal the truth with their pristine look and antiseptic smell, while at the heart of it (the mould = YOU) knows it's not the case. It's up to you how you express that though. 6/ 'magnified' is usually associated with scale, although time as a concept could possibly be described in terms of scale. Here though, you've focused in on the ticks. We can also get rid of that 'was'. We haven't been introduced to the clock before and it isn't something we assume is in a hospital corridor, so it should be 'a clock'. If you refer back to it at some point, THEN you can use 'the': 'A wall clock intensified the silence.' 7/ What sort of a ward was she in? Of course you're going to be in the corridor where her ward would be, and you don't have to repeat she's fighting for her life. We can also get rid of that 'was' again: 'Serena fought for her life in intensive care.'
> 
> 
> 
> 1/ 'shoot up'. It's a bit colloquial for your needs and doesn't necessarily create the right image. Use a simpler, more relevant way of describing it: 'The thought made the hair on my neck bristle.' 2/ I know exactly what you're doing when you write sentences like this because I used to do it too. You've got nothing in your head but the idea you want to convey, and so you begin the sentence and guide yourself through the maze of thinking until you arrive at the end. Trial the sentence in your head a few times before you place it down. Eventually, you'll do it without thought. This is a perfect example of it. 'of this incident', 'was such', 'that it has sapped'. All of that happened because you didn't have a structure already in mind. It's awkward. I'm having to look at this and think carefully about how I want to restructure it. I'm not just doing this easily.  It takes a little more thought, that's all. I'm not a lover of 'emotions' there but because you've used the plural, the reader is going to try and think of what 'emotions' you mean. If you simply say 'emotion', then we immediately get the idea of 'no outward expression of concern', 'NUMB'. So, with all that taken into consideration: 'Shock sapped me of emotion.' It's up to you to square this with your early claim of it feeling 'ominous'. Personally, I'd reconsider the early descriptions of his emotions, and run with this numbness. 3/ I'd bring this into the previous sentence and simplify: 'Shock sapped me of emotion, leaving me numb and terrified.' Although, once again, consider 'terrified'. That's an emotion ... right? If he's numb with no emotion, he can't feel terrified: 'Shock sapped me of emotion, leaving me numb.' 4/ NOW he's 'restless'! That numbness is feeling mighty throwaway at this point but I like it so would work with it. Give us a lead up to this change, of him moving from a state of numbness to feeling 'restless'. One extra sentence transitioning between the two. Don't use 'suddenly'!!!!! 5/ I thought he was in the corridor? This is two sentences separated by a comma. Just lose the second part. At this late point we don't need to know how the chairs are set out. You've moved us through an emotional scene. Describe something like this before you ask the reader to go on an emotional journey with you. 6/ 'My right leg shook. It always did when I felt anxious.'.*


Thanks a lot for this great help!
As I said, I'm not very experienced, I wasn't aware about the 'was' concept, thanks for pointing it out. Also, the molds is a great idea!


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## Anamable

vranger said:


> Matchu made a good point about the linking verbs (copulas): was, were--essentially any form of "to be". Your piece of prose is very effective, but eliminating a few of those will spice it up--plus, some agents will ding you if the prose has too many. I'm going to disagree on Matchu, however, with "was magnified". I thought that sentence *was *(haha) quite evocative, and I don't see a fix for "was" which gives it the same feeling.
> 
> However, "was fighting" can be "fought". "The same color *coated *the walls". The sentence beginning "I wasn't sure" has four of them ... a bit weighty with the "to be's". So you'll wind up with what's called a "copular spider." See the image below.
> 
> Often a copula will be followed by a verb with "ing", as noted above in "was fighting", so you simply eliminate "was" and "ing" and it's fixed.
> 
> "was shaking" to "*shook*" is another example.
> 
> Sometimes you can get rid of it completely: Shock of this incident was such that it had sapped me of all emotions.
> 
> Sometimes you can simply replace the copula with a better verb. For example with "This is how I felt then", you could have "This illustrates how I felt then". By the way, I'm not saying "illustrate" is the best replacement choice there. That's a situation where I'm likely to fire up thesaurus.com and dig for the word I like best.
> 
> You don't have to replace ALL of the copulas, you just don't want to leave something like that diagram down there.  Some of them will provide the mood you seek better than more active verbs.
> 
> However, overall that's a nice piece ... nice sentence structure outside of what I discussed, good flow, and it sets your mood. And frankly, I could live with most of those copulas for a section of prose only that long, but if you don't pay attention, you can wind up doing that for the whole book, and then you'd wind up having to fix hundreds of them in revision.  I've looked at manuscripts from hopeful writers where the manuscript is filled with them, even in action scenes, and the narration eventually falls flat.
> 
> View attachment 26971


Thanks a lot!
I knew something was off here but couldn't understand what. Now I get it, I wasn't aware of the 'was' concept.


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## Anamable

Matchu said:


> That’s a nice couple of paragraphs.
> 
> If it was my draft  I would shift the ‘you’ and ‘us’ toward ‘I’ up at the beginning - and allow the reader to share the sensation that way, let them nod their heads...
> 
> Later on, a string of verbs - magnified - being one of them, I’d remove the ‘was’ from all 3.
> 
> see you


Thank you!


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## Kent_Jacobs

Anamable said:


> Thanks a lot for this great help!
> As I said, I'm not very experienced, I wasn't aware about the 'was' concept, thanks for pointing it out. Also, the molds is a great idea!


No problem. One of the reasons I wanted a craft thread (which hopefully leads to a craft subforum), is so I can go through something more thoroughly. I enjoy doing it. It teaches me a lot and helps other people.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Moving it back here gives it a better trial period, so thank you to ever moved it! I'll re-post the OP:

Ok, so I'm trying something. I have been told if this is reasonably successful, a subforum could be made for it. So, please, try to keep it on topic.

The idea is to have a section purely for craft and nothing else. We have a section for grammar and we have the Writing Workshop section, but that section is really for short stories and novels. Yes you get critique there on style and craft but it's not specifically for craft and is such a broad church of critique, it doesn't lend itself well to nailing down craft alone. I hope this thread does just that. Other forums have a section like this so I see no reason we couldn't have one here too. From a quick scout around, they're popular.

So what's it about? Instead of posting whole stories or large sections of stories, you post a sentence or a paragraph (or three). Something you're not happy with and want to know how to improve. You could also ask for help with better word choice, better structuring, any number of craft related things. I've already done this a couple of times with things like my 'is this mournful?' thread but never really felt it fitted here well. I think a focused subforum would be helpful for a lot of people.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Does the last sentence feel like an afterthought?



> Rev. Thomson had told the truth. The grave sat away from the jumble of headstones in a well-maintained corner. Flowers speckled the location, their growth unimpaired by the large willow tree draped across the area, swaying gently in the wind. Lichened bricks marked out the six foot by three-foot shallow mound of earth, at its top a headstone with ‘R.I.P’ engraved upon it. Only the willow tree moved, everything else locked in time like the apparition. The stillness felt like respect, not death.


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## Ajoy

TheMightyAz said:


> Does the last sentence feel like an afterthought?


So, while it technically works fine without the last sentence, that sentence gives a tone that wasn't in the description until that line. The efforts describing the stillness being interpreted as respect rather than death creates a whole different feel (and even imagery) for me. Now, if the larger piece gets that across anyway, then I'd say it's unnecessary, but if that line alone gives the context for the stillness of respect, then it's doing its job. Of course that's just my reader impression.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Ajoy said:


> So, while it technically works fine without the last sentence, that sentence gives a tone that wasn't in the description until that line. The efforts describing the stillness being interpreted as respect rather than death creates a whole different feel (and even imagery) for me. Now, if the larger piece gets that across anyway, then I'd say it's unnecessary, but if that line alone gives the context for the stillness of respect, then it's doing its job. Of course that's just my reader impression.


I'm wondering if switching the last two sentences would smooth this.



> Rev. Thomson had told the truth. The grave sat away from the jumble of headstones in a well-maintained corner. Flowers speckled the location, their growth unimpaired by the large willow tree draped across the area, swaying gently in the wind. Lichened bricks marked out the six foot by three-foot shallow mound of earth, at its top a headstone with ‘R.I.P’ engraved upon it. The stillness felt like respect, not death. Only the willow tree moved, everything else locked in time like the apparition.


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## Matchu

That is much better. 

 The paragraph remains crammed with too much goodness, in my opinion.  

Meanwhile the 'conclusion' doesn't resonate because it is _off_ - or lacks authenticity - again an opinion - about a grave spot feeling like respect and not death.   Retain 'respect' in brackets until precision thumps into place - perhaps a month from now - unless this is a quest for 'respect' novel.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Matchu said:


> That is much better.
> 
> The paragraph remains crammed with too much goodness, in my opinion.
> 
> Meanwhile the 'conclusion' doesn't resonate because it is _off_ - or lacks authenticity - again an opinion - about a grave spot feeling like respect and not death.   Retain 'respect' in brackets until precision thumps into place - perhaps a month from now - unless this is a quest for 'respect' novel.


I think I'm throwing that sentence away. It's better there but I need to tie it in with the surrounding context more. It's a long time since I wrote that section and I think I put it in as a place holder and then forgot why I put it in. At the end of the day, if I write the rest of that paragraph and convey exactly what each part contributes to, I shouldn't need it at all. The 'respect' part should be inherent in the scene. I reckon that's why I keep revisiting it.


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## Matchu

The whole section, indeed the long piece you posted a week ago, really really approaches a great elegance.  Just, again opinion, rather too rich at times.  Draft it toward the super-purple - but peel it back until this craft appears invisible.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Matchu said:


> The whole section, indeed the long piece you posted a week ago, really really approaches a great elegance.  Just, again opinion, rather too rich at times.  Draft it toward the super-purple - but peel it back until this craft appears invisible.


It's the richness I'm going for though, Matchu.  This is why I'm against the cut, cut, cut mentality. I want razor sharp prose with an undercurrent of the poetic. It's not purple prose though. I want the words to be seen. I want the reader to see through those words into the story. I'm not a writer that wants my words to be invisible. Some do, and there's nothing wrong with it, but I don't. It's actually very easy to make the words invisible and much harder to draw attention to them, and that comes at a cost. They HAVE to be good, and right now, whilst I often sit back satisfied I've pulled it off, many times I hate what I've written because it's drawing attention to itself in the wrong way. That's what I'm honing. That's what I'm practising. That is at the heart of my voice.

Here's some purple prose from 'Twilight':

_His skin, white despite the faint flush from yesterday’s hunting trip, literally sparkled, like thousands of tiny diamonds were embedded in the surface. He lay perfectly still in the grass, his shirt open over his sculpted, incandescent chest, his scintillating arms bare. His glistening, pale lavender lids were shut, though of course he didn’t sleep. A perfect statue, carved in some unknown stone, smooth like marble, glittering like crystal._

*Now that's purple ... but published. *


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## Matchu

My friend, it's not a cut mentality.

I'm saying that if the ambition is a 'razor sharp' game then the write cannot appear laboured like a meander around the houses, kissing one's armpit every clause.  Of course I want you slobbering up the armpit, but I do not want to see your pencil workings.   And I believe one allusion/flourish each sentence is enough - even if I break my own rules

With draft your prose will be beautiful AND will tell the story.  But give yourself a chance with this dense paragraph. write it long [& linear], then rope it all back in.

Workings: 

Rev. Thomson had told the truth. 1
the jumble of headstones 2
the grave sat away 3
Flowers speckled 4
a willow draped 5


_*/* in a well-maintained corner. Flowers *speckled* the location, their growth *unimpaired* by the large willow tree draped across the area, swaying gently in the wind. *euch* Lichened bricks marked out the six foot by three-foot shallow mound of earth, at its top a headstone with ‘R.I.P’ engraved upon it. The stillness [wind!] felt like respect, not death. Only the willow tree moved, [oh] everything else locked in time like the apparition._


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## Kent_Jacobs

Matchu said:


> My friend, it's not a cut mentality.
> 
> I'm saying that if the ambition is a 'razor sharp' game then the write cannot appear laboured like a meander around the houses, kissing one's armpit every clause.  Of course I want you slobbering up the armpit, but I do not want to see your pencil workings.   And I believe one allusion/flourish each sentence is enough - even if I break my own rules
> 
> With draft your prose will be beautiful AND will tell the story.  But give yourself a chance with this dense paragraph. write it long [& linear], then rope it all back in.
> 
> Workings:
> 
> Rev. Thomson had told the truth. 1
> the jumble of headstones 2
> the grave sat away 3
> Flowers speckled 4
> a willow draped 5
> 
> 
> _*/* in a well-maintained corner. Flowers *speckled* the location, their growth *unimpaired* by the large willow tree draped across the area, swaying gently in the wind. *euch* Lichened bricks marked out the six foot by three-foot shallow mound of earth, at its top a headstone with ‘R.I.P’ engraved upon it. The stillness [wind!] felt like respect, not death. Only the willow tree moved, [oh] everything else locked in time like the apparition._


Explain further. Rewrite the paragraph as you would want it rewritten and explain why you've done it. What does the heading 'workings' mean and what is the reason for the list of examples that follow?  I don't understand what's wrong with 'speckled' or 'unimpaired' Why have you underlined 'area' and 'at its' and 'stillness'? What's the '[wind]' and '[oh]' referring to?


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## Matchu

Oh fanks...

He stepped between the jumble of headstones/until from a far corner he heard the creek of branches, the willow draped over a single & a  desolate  stone/ _ Bricks traced the six foot  shallow mound/ THE headstone engraved Rest In Piece/ alfred caught his breath, stroked the lettering/under this willow that swayed in her mourning, and like a respect for the life lived, not death,  Alfred swallowed bla blah blah blah i am tosser

All best Az

Oh...explanation: 

one thing at a time in one direction only.  Obviously mine's a bit ropy - hoping to not write 'lichened brick' & 'shallow mound' in the same clause._


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## Kent_Jacobs

Matchu said:


> Oh fanks...
> 
> He stepped between the jumble of headstones/until from a far corner he heard the creek of branches, the willow draped over a single & a  desolate  stone/ _ Bricks traced the six foot  shallow mound/ THE headstone engraved Rest In Piece/ alfred caught his breath, stroked the lettering/under this willow that swayed in her mourning, and like a respect for the life lived, not death,  Alfred swallowed bla blah blah blah i am tosser
> 
> All best Az
> 
> Oh...explanation:
> 
> one thing at a time in one direction only.  Obviously mine's a bit ropy - hoping to not write 'lichened brick' & 'shallow mound' in the same clause._


I'll likely lose 'shallow' in the final draft but I'm still none the wiser. In any case, there's nothing inherently wrong with having 'lichened bricks and 'shallow mound' in the same clause. What's your thinking there? Why does it bother you? You've got left strokes, the capitalisation of 'THE' and called Arthur 'albert' (not capitalised). You end with 'Alfred swallowed bla blah blah  ... i am a tosser. Why? I find myself spending far too much time trying to understand what you're advising rather than actually taking advice from you ... lol. Just be straight.

Look at my earlier posts and see how I break things down.


----------



## Matchu

Well - You have to picture me sitting at a keyboard and responding swiftly.  I don’t have total appreciation for every nuance and cranny of the story.  I’m sorry I confused.

Essentially - when you get it right - it’s good.  My only intention, ambition is to assist, prod and provoke imagination.

I thought with the dashes, capitalisations, the ‘I am tosser’ you might perceive the critic at work.

The way I communicate is  not translating. Sorry.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Matchu said:


> Well - You have to picture me sitting at a keyboard and responding swiftly.  I don’t have total appreciation for every nuance and cranny of the story.  I’m sorry I confused.
> 
> Essentially - when you get it right - it’s good.  My only intention, ambition is to assist, prod and provoke imagination.
> 
> I thought with the dashes, capitalisations, the ‘I am tosser’ you might perceive the critic at work.
> 
> The way I communicate is  not translating. Sorry.


Well, at least you took the time and it's appreciated. I like the idea of attributing the willow tree to the 'respect not death' idea. I may run with that in further drafts.


----------



## Riptide

TheMightyAz said:


> Does the last sentence feel like an afterthought?





TheMightyAz said:


> Rev. Thomson had told the truth. The grave sat away from the jumble of headstones in a well-maintained corner. Flowers speckled the location, their growth unimpaired by the large willow tree draped across the area, swaying gently in the wind. Lichened bricks marked out the six foot by three-foot shallow mound of earth, at its top a headstone with ‘R.I.P’ engraved upon it. Only the willow tree moved, everything else locked in time like the apparition. The stillness felt like respect, not death.



Idk how I feel about the 'six foot by three-foot' description. I'm not picturing anything different from this than what already comes to mind when I think of a cemetery. it would be cool to see them still working on the headstone, with the person's name only half way etched into the stone, or whatever. That'd be kinda gloomy, imo, but probably not what you're looking for.

I guess the first two descriptions aren't truly definitive either and I don't know how a place can be well-maintained with loose flowers speckled everywhere, their growth unbothered by the large willow tree. It seems to contradict itself. What makes this place tidier than the rest of it?

To answer your question, personally, I don't mind the last line, though it does feel like the second to last line packs more of a punch to end on. I really like that like. Since cemeteries really are locked in time.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Riptide said:


> Idk how I feel about the 'six foot by three-foot' description. I'm not picturing anything different from this than what already comes to mind when I think of a cemetery. it would be cool to see them still working on the headstone, with the person's name only half way etched into the stone, or whatever. That'd be kinda gloomy, imo, but probably not what you're looking for.
> 
> I guess the first two descriptions aren't truly definitive either and I don't know how a place can be well-maintained with loose flowers speckled everywhere, their growth unbothered by the large willow tree. It seems to contradict itself. What makes this place tidier than the rest of it?
> 
> To answer your question, personally, I don't mind the last line, though it does feel like the second to last line packs more of a punch to end on. I really like that like. Since cemeteries really are locked in time.


This is more like it. Thank you. I never even spotted the contradiction of 'well maintained' and 'speckled flowers'. That's got to be changed! It's weird how some things slip under the radar. I don't know what cemeteries are like in the US but in Britain you inevitably have a plot of land set aside with a headstone. There's no mound to speak of. The idea of describing it as a mound is to differentiate between a hole dug by gravediggers (deep) and a grave dug by villagers (shallow). One is done as a matter of business and the other is done out of respect. One is planned and the other is done in a clandestine way. The personal versus the ceremonial.


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## EmmaSohan

I think this project is a good idea. (It does need it's own section to separate the different passages for us to look at.)

"The grave sat away from the jumble of headstones in a well-maintained corner."

I wonder about the order of images. I would prefer to see a jumble of headstones, then well-maintained corner, then the grave. In a contrast, don't you want the focus coming second and getting most of the power of the contrast?

I am trying not to mention my second grammar book. I am suggesting just one way of writing a scene -- to think of it as images, perhaps even luscious images, then present them one-by-one. You are in a way painting a still scene using active verbs. Or fitting facts into grammatical sentences. (we have different styles, so this is more of a general comment.)


----------



## Matchu

away from the jumble of ordinary headstones The grave sat in a well-maintained corner.

_Altho I'd prefer_:

the jumble of headstones STOP>The grave sat in a corner STOP >well-maintained

Because, as @AZ knows, the risk of:

the grave jumble of words headstones grave sat in a well-maintained confusion


----------



## Riptide

I have a new beginning I wouldn't mind some trimming, insight, look at, what have you.

--

I shouldn’t have drank that water bottle. It sloshed inside me with every lurch of the Humvee through the Kuwaiti wasteland. I went to the portajohn before leaving to prevent this. I shifted my front plate off my bladder and let it sit on my belt buckle to release the pressure. My body armor fit loose in all the wrong places and tight where I didn’t want it to, though it had been “sized” just for me. Only the best for our troops… During a dip in the road, the plate dropped again onto my bladder. I inwardly groaned as the tension squeezed my lower half in a constant flex.

--

I think it sounds a bit disjointed. Lacking the character's voice... but that might just be me.


----------



## Matchu

I think it's nice, there's other ways, I'll have a go?  It's all draft stuff...

I shouldn’t have drunk the water.

It sloshed inside of me with every lurch of the Humvee through the Kuwaiti wasteland desert. [_with our apols to Kuwaiti ambassador_].  I visited the portajohn before leaving to prevent all this fuss/this trauma/this complication.

I shifted my front plate off, away from my bladder, and let it sit upon my belt buckle, releasing the pressure. My body armor fit loose in all of the wrong places and only tight where I wanted loose, though it had been “sized” for my unique frame and dimension.  The best for the United States army (Delta 6)… The road dipped, the plate dropped again on to my bladder. I groaned.  The tension squeezed my lower half in a constant flex.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

EmmaSohan said:


> I think this project is a good idea. (It does need it's own section to separate the different passages for us to look at.)
> 
> "The grave sat away from the jumble of headstones in a well-maintained corner."
> 
> I wonder about the order of images. I would prefer to see a jumble of headstones, then well-maintained corner, then the grave. In a contrast, don't you want the focus coming second and getting most of the power of the contrast?
> 
> I am trying not to mention my second grammar book. I am suggesting just one way of writing a scene -- to think of it as images, perhaps even luscious images, then present them one-by-one. You are in a way painting a still scene using active verbs. Or fitting facts into grammatical sentences. (we have different styles, so this is more of a general comment.)


In most cases I'm visualising the scenes as an image in a graphic novel. It's the reason I was drawn to Clive Barker, who also sees it that way. It helps that he's an artist too of course ... and I aint. You can see it more clearly in MotherHUD. In that story I saw the 'in' as if I was watching The Creep Show movie, each a still picture that expands into actual film footage. 'In a way you are painting a still scene with active verbs'. That made me smile. It's actually what I'm going for but should be used more sparingly. The problem I find using actual stories to practice the craft is I apply the particular thing I'm working on to EVERY sentence and EVERY paragraph. It becomes laden with what I'm practising at the time.

As far as the order is concerned, you are the second person to mention it (Mitchu is the other) and on giving it some thought, I think you're both right. It would move you into the 'shot' more naturally, and as you say empower the focus. I always think 'strong in, strong out' in terms of sentence and paragraphs, BUT, if making the 'in' strong weakens the 'out' then it kills the sentence/paragraph.

You've actually given me some food for thought here. Perhaps 'sometimes' I need to step back and ONLY concentrate on the strong in and out of the paragraph.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Riptide said:


> I have a new beginning I wouldn't mind some trimming, insight, look at, what have you.
> 
> --
> 
> *1/* I shouldn’t have drank that water bottle. *2/* It sloshed inside me with every lurch of the Humvee through the Kuwaiti wasteland. I went to the portajohn before leaving to prevent this. *3/* I shifted my front plate off my bladder and let it sit on my belt buckle to release the pressure. *4/* My body armor fit*ted* loose in all the wrong places and tight where I didn’t want it to, *even* though it had been “sized” just for me. Only the best for our troops*. *…* 5/* During a dip in the road, the plate dropped again onto my bladder. I inwardly groaned as the tension squeezed my lower half in a constant flex.



*1/* Personal preference but I'd want to go with 'the water bottle' and not 'that water bottle', although 'that' does put more distance between then and now in a way. *2/* The inclusion of 'through the Kuwaiti wasteland' feels an after thought on the end there. It could be just a matter of the way it's written though. 'inside me' feels too broad a description when a more specific word would set the scene better. 'Gut' would work better I think.* 'It sloshed in my gut with every lurch of the Humvee as we drove through the Kuwaiti wastelands.' 3/ *You don't need to be specific about what part of your anatomy you're alleviating there. The prior sentence and the end of this sentence does the job well enough. It also cuts one of the three repeats of 'my'. * 'I shifted the front plate and sat it on my belt buckle'. 4/ *I'd start the sentence with 'the' to avoid another repetition of 'my'. Here is an example of when I would use 'was' in order to avoid the slightly awkward 'fitted loose' or 'fit loose' (which felt odd)  *'The armour was loose in all the wrong places and tight where I didn't want, even though it had been sized just for me.' 5/ '*During a dip' is a little inactive when going straight for 'A dip' would be better. Having said that, would a 'dip' be what you actually mean and would it jolt the plate enough? Do you mean pothole perhaps? That would cause the jolt you require. The last sentence should be part of this sentence I think. I'm not keen on 'lower half in a constant flex'. It's too much I think. *'A pothole jolted the plate back onto my bladder and I groaned, feeling the pinch.'*

So we have: *I shouldn't have drank the water. It sloshed in my gut with every lurch of the Humvee as we drove through the Kuwait wastelands. I shifted the front plate and sat it on my belt buckle. The armour was loose in all the wrong places and tight where I didn't want, even though it had been sized just for me. A pothole jolted the plate back onto my bladder and I groaned, feeling the pinch.'*





Riptide said:


> --
> 
> I think it sounds a bit disjointed. Lacking the character's voice... but that might just be me.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Is this a strong first sentence? Would it make you read on? And is the paragraph a strong first paragraph?



> Sometimes Yarrod wondered if the world moved beneath _him_, the future an earth’s rotation away. He had a similar view of time, never sure when he began, only that he was. Pain gave him some resolution. He hungered and thirsted, ached and weakened just like the next man. There the similarity ended. No womb birthed him and no grave waited. He was outside of time, watching the world pass by, snatching moments to remind himself he was no ghost.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Which sounds better? I wrote this in this way to avoid using the gerund but I keep going back to it:

*1: *Spurs rattled with each step taken, footprints swallowed by fine sand in a sleepless breeze.
*2:* Spurs rattled with each step taken, soft sand swallowing footprints in a sleepless breeze.

It's the 'swallowed by' in the first sentence that's making this hard to decide. Yes we have an unwanted 'ing' in the second version but it's got a musicality and rhythm about it I quite like.

'Soft sand swallowing'. Is that a bit of a mouth full? It follows quite nicely behind the 'plod, plod, plod, plod' of 'Each ... step ... ta ... ken' in that it creates a kind of movement reminiscent of sand filling in. 'soft sand swallowing'. So, we have the steps and then the steps being filled in.

'Each. Step. Ta/ken' followed by 'soft ... sand ... swallowing'.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> Which sounds better? I wrote this in this way to avoid using the gerund but I keep going back to it:
> 
> *1: *Spurs rattled with each step taken, footprints swallowed by fine sand in a sleepless breeze.
> *2:* Spurs rattled with each step taken, soft sand swallowing footprints in a sleepless breeze.
> 
> It's the 'swallowed by' in the first sentence that's making this hard to decide. Yes we have an unwanted 'ing' in the second version but it's got a musicality and rhythm about it I quite like.
> 
> 'Soft sand swallowing'. Is that a bit of a mouth full? It follows quite nicely behind the 'plod, plod, plod, plod' of 'Each ... step ... ta ... ken' in that it creates a kind of movement reminiscent of sand filling in. 'soft sand swallowing'. So, we have the steps and then the steps being filled in.
> 
> 'Each. Step. Ta/ken' followed by 'soft ... sand ... swallowing'.


I like the first one. I think it flows better. 3 s'es in a row kinda throw me off. But that's just me.


----------



## Matchu

I would step _before_ either of my spurs ‘rattled’.

An u mebbe should tighten your spurs, check the rowel at the back of each spur, and that you ain’t lost your precious jingle bobs, y’all

mat cowman


----------



## Matchu

‘Footsteps swallowed by fine sand in a sleepless breeze..’ said the cowboy and he spat manfully.  Fine sand swallowed the spittle.

‘Eh?’ said the ranch hands sat a surround of the blazing fire.

‘Fine sand in a sleepless breeze,’ he repeated, he counted stars.

‘Whaa?’ said the cowboys.

‘Moon sky pigeon wid no eyes is black,’ he said.

‘That’s more like it’ chorused the cowboys that night of the ranch hand poetry gathrin.


----------



## Phil Istine

TheMightyAz said:


> Which sounds better? I wrote this in this way to avoid using the gerund but I keep going back to it:
> 
> *1: *Spurs rattled with each step taken, footprints swallowed by fine sand in a sleepless breeze.
> *2:* Spurs rattled with each step taken, soft sand swallowing footprints in a sleepless breeze.
> 
> It's the 'swallowed by' in the first sentence that's making this hard to decide. Yes we have an unwanted 'ing' in the second version but it's got a musicality and rhythm about it I quite like.
> 
> 'Soft sand swallowing'. Is that a bit of a mouth full? It follows quite nicely behind the 'plod, plod, plod, plod' of 'Each ... step ... ta ... ken' in that it creates a kind of movement reminiscent of sand filling in. 'soft sand swallowing'. So, we have the steps and then the steps being filled in.
> 
> 'Each. Step. Ta/ken' followed by 'soft ... sand ... swallowing'.


You could write around the passive verb if you switch the sentence around.  You could even make it into two sentences.
Soft sand swallowed footprints in a sleepless breeze, each step rattling the spurs.


----------



## Riptide

TheMightyAz said:


> Which sounds better? I wrote this in this way to avoid using the gerund but I keep going back to it:
> 
> *1: *Spurs rattled with each step taken, footprints swallowed by fine sand in a sleepless breeze.
> *2:* Spurs rattled with each step taken, soft sand swallowing footprints in a sleepless breeze.
> 
> It's the 'swallowed by' in the first sentence that's making this hard to decide. Yes we have an unwanted 'ing' in the second version but it's got a musicality and rhythm about it I quite like.
> 
> 'Soft sand swallowing'. Is that a bit of a mouth full? It follows quite nicely behind the 'plod, plod, plod, plod' of 'Each ... step ... ta ... ken' in that it creates a kind of movement reminiscent of sand filling in. 'soft sand swallowing'. So, we have the steps and then the steps being filled in.
> 
> 'Each. Step. Ta/ken' followed by 'soft ... sand ... swallowing'.


It might jsut be me... but I don't like the sentence that much. The plod, plod, reminds me of a creative writing professor I had who had the same idea as you, that the story starts with a good sentence. It has a good rhyme and sound to it, but, imo, it reads like two disjointed thoughts. Maybe I'm just missing the who in the sentence, and maybe when reading the whole paragraph I wouldn't worry too much about it. the 'his' spurs. His footprints.

Maybe even: His spurs rattled with each step, footprints swallowed by fine sand in (the?) sleepless breeze.


----------



## Matchu

The meaning of ‘sleepless breeze’ is quite difficult for me to grasp.  I have had all day to ponder.  Is it a relentless breeze, a lethargic breeze, or is it no breeze so that you cannot sleep?  If it is no breeze then why write it down?

Then again - these are all the mechanics - as you/we approach the surface of sense/draft/giant cracks in our wallpaper.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Phil Istine said:


> You could write around the passive verb if you switch the sentence around.  You could even make it into two sentences.
> Soft sand swallowed footprints in a sleepless breeze, each step rattling the spurs.


I don't know about that, man. It feels a bit disjointed written that way.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Riptide said:


> It might jsut be me... but I don't like the sentence that much. The plod, plod, reminds me of a creative writing professor I had who had the same idea as you, that the story starts with a good sentence. It has a good rhyme and sound to it, but, imo, it reads like two disjointed thoughts. Maybe I'm just missing the who in the sentence, and maybe when reading the whole paragraph I wouldn't worry too much about it. the 'his' spurs. His footprints.
> 
> Maybe even: His spurs rattled with each step, footprints swallowed by fine sand in (the?) sleepless breeze.


I know what you mean but even though it's two separate statements, it relates to the same image. The footprint. The filling in of the footprint immediately. If I dedicated a whole sentence to each, that immediacy is lost. It's also symbolic and related to time. Although Yarrod passes, he leaves no trace in time or space.


----------



## KeganThompson

Guess who's back...back again... (_shady's back, tell a friend_ )
so anyway...I'm starting to rework the second chapter of my first draft. I was having trouble so I grabbed notebook paper and started scribbling. I just need a boost to get this rolling.

School started on a Thursday, it was a good way to ease into the new school year at North Peak. The first two days muddled together, introductions belonged to the curriculum and teachers. A buzzing in my stomach kept me strung upright in the wee hours of the morning but my body and mind began to slack by lunch. The novelty wore off and sleep deprivation crashed in. I hadn't adjusted to the early morning routine.
There were many notable differences between Saint Joe and North Peak. Other than the girls, diversity was a close second.  The school was predominantly caucasian but multiple ethnicities were scattered throughout.
-I'm trying to find a better way to explain the differences between saint joe and his public school but  I think it just comes off awkward
help-the struggle is real. thx


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> *1/* School started on a Thursday, it was a good way to ease into the new school year at North Peak.* 2/* The first two days muddled together, introductions belonged to the curriculum and teachers.* 3/* A buzzing in my stomach kept me strung upright in the wee hours of the morning but my body and mind began to slack by lunch. The novelty wore off and sleep deprivation crashed in. I hadn't adjusted to the early morning routine.



*1/* The second clause sounds like a separate sentence. I often use commas in such situations to give the impression of emphasis without a definite break. You could use an emdash or semicolon instead, with the added bonus of losing that unwanted 'was'.* 'School started on a Thursday--a good way to ease into the new school year at North Peak.' 2/ *Again this sounds like two sentences but I'd either go for a definite split using a full stop or introduce an 'and' to smooth the flow between the two. Because this sentence is of a similar length to the first and has a similar rhythm, I'd break it into two shorter sentences: *'The first two days muddled together. Introductions belonged to the curriculum and teachers.*' I've got a slight problem with 'belonged to' though. Perhaps *'Introduction were the purview of the teachers and their curriculum.' *I don't like the idea of attributing 'introductions' directly to the curriculum, which is why I've switched that section and attributed the curriculum to the teachers.* 3/ *Buzzing is a sound and not a feeling, although I kinda like this section of the sentence, and what's more, by rejigging it and making it 'buzzed', you'd lose the lovely idiosyncrasy. 'A buzzing in my stomach kept me strung upright in the wee hours of the morning' I like! 'Began to slack' not so much. 'Began' is another one of those words you should try to erase if possible. *'... but my body relaxed by lunch'.* You could put 'slacked' but I'm not certain it's an attractive word choice here. I'd have to read it several times to decide for certain.  There's some really interesting and fascinating syntax here which gives your voice originality. Stick with that. A little tightening and oiling and this is a cracking paragraph. 



KeganThompson said:


> There were many notable differences between Saint Joe and North Peak. Other than the girls, diversity was a close second.  The school was predominantly caucasian but multiple ethnicities were scattered throughout.



You use quite a few 'were' and 'was's in your work. It's not necessarily the inclusion of them that's problematic, it's their close proximity. They leap out at you if there are too many and they're too close.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> *1/* The second clause sounds like a separate sentence. I often use commas in such situations to give the impression of emphasis without a definite break. You could use an emdash or semicolon instead, with the added bonus of losing that unwanted 'was'.* 'School started on a Thursday--a good way to ease into the new school year at North Peak.' 2/ *Again this sounds like two sentences but I'd either go for a definite split using a full stop or introduce an 'and' to smooth the flow between the two. Because this sentence is of a similar length to the first and has a similar rhythm, I'd break it into two shorter sentences: *'The first two days muddled together. Introductions belonged to the curriculum and teachers.*' I've got a slight problem with 'belonged to' though. Perhaps *'Introduction were the purview of the teachers and their curriculum.' *I don't like the idea of attributing 'introductions' directly to the curriculum, which is why I've switched that section and attributed the curriculum to the teachers.* 3/ *Buzzing is a sound and not a feeling, although I kinda like this section of the sentence, and what's more, by rejigging it and making it 'buzzed', you'd lose the lovely idiosyncrasy. 'A buzzing in my stomach kept me strung upright in the wee hours of the morning' I like! 'Began to slack' not so much. 'Began' is another one of those words you should try to erase if possible. *'... but my body relaxed by lunch'.* You could put 'slacked' but I'm not certain it's an attractive word choice here. I'd have to read it several times to decide for certain.  There's some really interesting and fascinating syntax here which gives your voice originality. Stick with that. A little tightening and oiling and this is a cracking paragraph.
> 
> 
> 
> You use quite a few 'were' and 'was's in your work. It's not necessarily the inclusion of them that's problematic, it's their close proximity. They leap out at you if there are too many and they're too close.


U know what is funny? Originally" The first two days muddled together. Introductions belonged to the curriculum and teachers."
Were two sentences then I decided to add a comma. Sometimes I over think things and second guess myself. A couple times in ur critique u brought up something I changed when I went over it. Like the "loud trickle" 
Too many was, were, I and my- seem to be the bane of my existence.
Glad I have an "original voice" and that there is something interesting about my writing.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> U know what is funny? Originally" The first two days muddled together. Introductions belonged to the curriculum and teachers."
> Were two sentences then I decided to add a comma. Sometimes I over think things and second guess myself. A couple times in ur critique u brought up something I changed when I went over it. Like the "loud trickle"
> Too many was, were, I and my- seem to be the bane of my existence.
> Glad I have an "original voice" and that there is something interesting about my writing.


Well, this is the best place to iron out those kinks. See if you can rewrite this and remove all four problematic words. You may have to add extra detail to do that or completely rearrange sentences and ideas. That's the fun!

There were many notable differences between Saint Joe and North Peak. Other than the girls, diversity was a close second. The school was predominantly caucasian but multiple ethnicities were scattered throughout.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> Well, this is the best place to iron out those kinks. See if you can rewrite this and remove all four problematic words. You may have to add extra detail to do that or completely rearrange sentences and ideas. That's the fun!
> 
> There were many notable differences between Saint Joe and North Peak. Other than the girls, diversity was a close second. The school was predominantly caucasian but multiple ethnicities were scattered throughout.


-this probably took longer than it should have- here's my attempt at getting rid of the was/were
Notable differences caught my attention between Saint Joe and Noth Peak. The amount of girls reign supreme, but diversity snuck in at a close second. Multiple ethnicities scattered throughout but caucasian still dominated the student body.
???


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> -this probably took longer than it should have- here's my attempt at getting rid of the was/were
> Notable differences caught my attention between Saint Joe and Noth Peak. The amount of girls reign supreme, but diversity snuck in at a close second. Multiple ethnicities scattered throughout but caucasian still dominated the student body.
> ???


Oh, look, you got rid of those troublesome words!  But it's introduced the awkward 'caught my attention between' and the slightly cliched 'reign supreme'. BUT it shows how easy it was. Regardless of what you say, it didn't take that long. This is how I would have handled it to keep it in line with your style:

Saint Joe and North Peak had noticeable differences. Other than the girls, diversity came a close second. Caucasians dominated the school with multiple ethnicities scattered throughout.  

BUT, your attempt has changed the tone and given you more to work with in the rewrites.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> Oh, look, you got rid of those troublesome words!  But it's introduced the awkward 'caught my attention between' and the slightly cliched 'reign supreme'. BUT it shows how easy it was. Regardless of what you say, it didn't take that long. This is how I would have handled it to keep it in line with your style:
> 
> Saint Joe and North Peak had noticeable differences. Other than the girls, diversity came a close second. Caucasians dominated the school with multiple ethnicities scattered throughout.
> 
> BUT, your attempt has changed the tone and given you more to work with in the rewrites.


Another thing I'm good at is trying too hard  thank you it puts it in perspective. I have enjoyed focusing on my craft. A lot of times when I write I'm like...I hate this. It needs to be better. But there are so many things to focus on it can be hard to pinpoint them all urself and hone in those details.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Another thing I'm good at is trying too hard  thank you it puts it in perspective. I have enjoyed focusing on my craft. A lot of times when I write I'm like...I hate this. It needs to be better. But there are so many things to focus on it can be hard to pinpoint them all urself and hone in those details.


But now, every time you see 'was' or 'were' in your work, it's going to bother you ... and that's good! You also know you can remedy the problem. You don't have to get rid of them all though. Remember that.


----------



## Phil Istine

TheMightyAz said:


> I don't know about that, man. It feels a bit disjointed written that way.


I've now noticed the fuller version in your '6th chamber' thread where it reads
"Spurs rattled with each step taken, footprints swallowed by fine sand in a sleepless breeze. "
Within the context of the surrounding sentencves, it seems okay like that.  The only alteration I _might_ make is to drop the word 'fine' because it interrupts the flow a bit. 'Fine' could be regarded as redundant anyway as it wouldn't be filling in the footsteps unless it was fine and dry.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Phil Istine said:


> I've now noticed the fuller version in your '6th chamber' thread where it reads
> "Spurs rattled with each step taken, footprints swallowed by fine sand in a sleepless breeze. "
> Within the context of the surrounding sentencves, it seems okay like that.  The only alteration I _might_ make is to drop the word 'fine' because it interrupts the flow a bit. 'Fine' could be regarded as redundant anyway as it wouldn't be filling in the footsteps unless it was fine and dry.


I wondered about 'fine' myself. I've actually plumped for the second version and changed 'fine sand' to 'soft sand' to maximise the sibilance. Does this change your opinion in any way?

Spurs rattled with each step taken, soft sand swallowing footprints in a sleepless breeze.
Spurs rattled with each step taken, sand swallowing footprints in a sleepless breeze.

Mmmm ... I think it may well work better with your suggestion even in the alternative version. I've still got the sibilance I require there. It's not pressing the 'trick' quite as hard but perhaps that's a good thing.


----------



## Phil Istine

TheMightyAz said:


> I wondered about 'fine' myself. I've actually plumped for the second version and changed 'fine sand' to 'soft sand' to maximise the sibilance. Does this change your opinion in any way?
> 
> Spurs rattled with each step taken, soft sand swallowing footprints in a sleepless breeze.
> Spurs rattled with each step taken, sand swallowing footprints in a sleepless breeze.
> 
> Mmmm ... I think it may well work better with your suggestion even in the alternative version. I've still got the sibilance I require there.


The issue seems to be about retaining a semblance of meter whilst using sufficient alliteration and assonance - but not so much that it feels contrived.  Thrown into that are concerns about having a dreaded -ing word and/or a passive verb usage.
Although 'soft' sand works for alliteration, I might query it for three reasons (1) to me, 'soft' sand conjures up an image that allows the sand to be damp, (2) adding that extra 's' word overcooks the alliteration (3) having an extra word in there at all makes a bump in what might loosely be called meter.
None of these are terrible things as it's more about fine tuning, but the texture of the sand is implied by its filling in of the footprints.  It's often the case that an image is stronger when leading the reader's subconscious rather than directly informing.
Of course, these are only my opinions, and we all know that old saying about opinions and arseholes


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Phil Istine said:


> The issue seems to be about retaining a semblance of meter whilst using sufficient alliteration and assonance - but not so much that it feels contrived.  Thrown into that are concerns about having a dreaded -ing word and/or a passive verb usage.
> Although 'soft' sand works for alliteration, I might query it for three reasons (1) to me, 'soft' sand conjures up an image that allows the sand to be damp, (2) adding that extra 's' word overcooks the alliteration (3) having an extra word in there at all makes a bump in what might loosely be called meter.
> None of these are terrible things as it's more about fine tuning, but the texture of the sand is implied by its filling in of the footprints.  It's often the case that an image is stronger when leading the reader's subconscious rather than directly informing.
> Of course, these are only my opinions, and we all know that old saying about opinions and arseholes


I've taken your advice. I think it was over-egging it. I still get the result required after removing 'soft' and as you've said, it's implied anyway. It's pulling me up at the moment simply because I'm used to seeing the word there but it's sounding better each time I read it.


----------



## Phil Istine

TheMightyAz said:


> I've taken your advice. I think it was over-egging it. I still get the result required after removing 'soft' and as you've said, it's implied anyway. It's pulling me up at the moment simply because I'm used to seeing the word there but it's sounding better each time I read it.


It's a little tricky for me because I'm more used to editing poetry, though there is some overlap.  When I wrote prose a few years ago I noticed that some sentences seemed to flow better than others.  It wasn't until later that I realised it was because they had iambic construction.
There is also a valid argument that the prose might be designed to fit the horse's motion as in: *clip*-pet-ty-*clop* *clip*-pet-ty-*clop *where, over eight syllables, syllables 1, 4, 5, and 8 are stressed, but it can become rather complex  . Come to think of it, that pattern seems more like a train's motion.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Phil Istine said:


> It's a little tricky for me because I'm more used to editing poetry, though there is some overlap.  When I wrote prose a few years ago I noticed that some sentences seemed to flow better than others.  It wasn't until later that I realised it was because they had iambic construction.
> There is also a valid argument that the prose might be designed to fit the horse's motion as in: *clip*-pet-ty-*clop* *clip*-pet-ty-*clop *where, over eight syllables, syllables 1, 4, 5, and 8 are stressed, but it can become rather complex  . Come to think of it, that pattern seems more like a train's motion.


Oh ... please don't! I've been fighting myself on this one for a very long time. There is some value in iambic construction but my GOD, would that make what I'm trying to achieve much harder. Maybe ... one day ... who knows. Right now though, I'll concentrate on becoming proficient. Now I've got to make a cup of tea and hope I can erase what you've just said when I write the following scene!


----------



## Phil Istine

I picture you drinking tea with alternating loud and quiet slurps


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Which of these two sentences would be considered 'more professional' in terms of structure? 'Which' allows me to lose the gerund but I've always got a problem with that word and wondered if it's just a 'me' thing. Are they both acceptable? 

Stitch beat wings and took flight, which sent Yarrod’s hat spinning to the ground.
Stitch beat wings and took flight, sending Yarrod’s hat spinning to the ground.

This bothers me a lot for some reason.


----------



## Phil Istine

TheMightyAz said:


> Which of these two sentences would be considered 'more professional' in terms of structure? 'Which' allows me to lose the gerund but I've always got a problem with that word and wondered if it's just a 'me' thing. Are they both acceptable?
> 
> Stitch beat wings and took flight, which sent Yarrod’s hat spinning to the ground.
> Stitch beat wings and took flight, sending Yarrod’s hat spinning to the ground.
> 
> This bothers me a lot for some reason.


Not sure about this one.  In both versions it feels like 'wings' needs a possessive his or her, unless the rest of the piece is written in that styles.
As for which version: the second feels a little better in my view, in spite of the two -ing words.

Possible alternative: Stitch took flight.  His beating wings sent Yarrod's hat spinning to the ground.  (two sentences though)


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> Which of these two sentences would be considered 'more professional' in terms of structure? 'Which' allows me to lose the gerund but I've always got a problem with that word and wondered if it's just a 'me' thing. Are they both acceptable?
> 
> Stitch beat wings and took flight, which sent Yarrod’s hat spinning to the ground.
> Stitch beat wings and took flight, sending Yarrod’s hat spinning to the ground.
> 
> This bothers me a lot for some reason.


I like the second one. Reads smoother (for me at least)


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Phil Istine said:


> Not sure about this one.  In both versions it feels like 'wings' needs a possessive his or her, unless the rest of the piece is written in that styles.
> As for which version: the second feels a little better in my view, in spite of the two -ing words.
> 
> Possible alternative: Stitch took flight.  His beating wings sent Yarrod's hat spinning to the ground.  (two sentences though)


I meant to ask about the lack of possessive. I think you're right. It needs one. I get hung up about constantly using his/her/he/she and it doesn't matter how many times I read or listen to published authors who clearly have no problem repeating them, I find myself artificially reducing them. Here's a perfect example and it reads awkwardly.

So you'd go with the second regardless of the doubled up gerunds. I've used the 'which' version but I reckon I'll change it back. you might be right about splitting it into two sentences though.


----------



## Phil Istine

TheMightyAz said:


> I meant to ask about the lack of possessive. I think you're right. It needs one. I get hung up about constantly using his/her/he/she and it doesn't matter how many times I read or listen to published authors who clearly have no problem repeating them, I find myself artificially reducing them. Here's a perfect example and it reads awkwardly.
> 
> So you'd go with the second regardless of the doubled up gerunds. I've used the 'which' version but I reckon I'll change it back. you might be right about splitting it into two sentences though.


In my possible alternative, sand could replace ground at the end, so creating some alliteration with spinning.  However, ignore that if you're using the single-sentence method.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Phil Istine said:


> In my possible alternative, sand could replace ground at the end, so creating some alliteration with spinning.  However, ignore that if you're using the single-sentence method.


I thought about using sand and decided on ground just because I didn't want to repeat the same tricks I used in the previous paragraphs. I'll consider it. I would be more inclined to go with 'b' as the possible alliteration there though.


----------



## Taylor

TheMightyAz said:


> Which of these two sentences would be considered 'more professional' in terms of structure? 'Which' allows me to lose the gerund but I've always got a problem with that word and wondered if it's just a 'me' thing. Are they both acceptable?
> 
> Stitch beat wings and took flight, which sent Yarrod’s hat spinning to the ground.
> Stitch beat wings and took flight, sending Yarrod’s hat spinning to the ground.
> 
> This bothers me a lot for some reason.


Although I can't speak to your question about professionalism, they are both acceptable, but I prefer the second one.  I'm not a huge fan of the word, 'which.' I usually try to avoid it.  I'm not sure why.    But I was wondering about adding a 'his' in there.


----------



## Tettsuo

TheMightyAz said:


> I meant to ask about the lack of possessive. I think you're right. It needs one. I get hung up about constantly using his/her/he/she and it doesn't matter how many times I read or listen to published authors who clearly have no problem repeating them, I find myself artificially reducing them. Here's a perfect example and it reads awkwardly.
> 
> So you'd go with the second regardless of the doubled up gerunds. I've used the 'which' version but I reckon I'll change it back. you might be right about splitting it into two sentences though.


In many instances, the reader will not really register the her, him, he, etc., so long as it's addressing the correct character or thing.


----------



## Steve_Rivers

TheMightyAz said:


> Which of these two sentences would be considered 'more professional' in terms of structure?
> Stitch beat wings and took flight, sending Yarrod’s hat spinning to the ground.
> 
> This bothers me a lot for some reason.


I think what goes in "sending's" favour more for me is the _activeness_ and _action_ to the sentence that it gives over 'which sent.' 'Sending' flows off my tongue better _as well as_ feeling more active.


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## Matchu

Stitch beat wings and he took to the sky.  Yorrod retrieved his hat swallowed by soft sand.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Steve_Rivers said:


> I think what goes in "sending's" favour more for me is the _activeness_ and _action_ to the sentence that it gives over 'which sent.' 'Sending' flows off my tongue better _as well as_ feeling more active.


Yeah, it's probably why I always have a problem with the word 'which'. It's kinda like holding the clutch down a fraction longer than is necessary before changing gears.


----------



## KeganThompson

Is it all good for me to post another snippet here? lol
So I'm on my first round of editing, which I think will be the hardest. Chapter 2 is soo long and messy. I'm mad at my past self for all the messes I created (And honestly probably still creating. )
Here is the ORGINAL description of the main female character.
Ami had big bouncy brown hair curling around her face and shoulders. Light freckles splattered across the bridge of her nose, slightly reaching her cheeks, and her caramel skin tone contrasted her green eyes perfectly.
My edited version.
 Thick bouncy brown hair coiled around her cheeks and forehead, baby hairs cut loose from her half updo. A wild puff of hair sprung from her pigtail and bobbed with the slightest of movement. Light freckles splattered across the bridge of her nose and hit the territory of her cheeks. Her caramel skin tone contrasted her green hazel eyes perfectly.
It's better but idk if it's giving the depiction I want. she is mixed and I'm trying to describe the texture.  also I don't know if I like "bouncy brown" maybe describe it as chocolate?? Editing has been a lot and I just need some good ol' motivation. I gotta a lot to edit and draft my friends


----------



## Taylor

Definitely get a better visual for the second one.    Wondering about the hairdo.  Is it a pigtail or an updo?  I can't picture what a half updo is.  When you say coiled around, I think you mean coiled hair danced around her cheeks and forehead.  Also not sure about the "hit the territory."  Perhaps meandered or maybe just, "Light freckles sprinkled across her nose and cheeks."  Or, "She didn't like to wear a lot of makeup, so the freckles sprinkled across her nose and cheeks gave her a natural intelligent look."  I always try to tie the physical appearance to a personal characteristic.

But I'm drawn to the description.  It's not so stereo-typical.


----------



## KeganThompson

Taylor said:


> Definitely get a better visual for the second one.    Wondering about the hairdo.  Is it a pigtail or an updo?  I can't picture what a half updo is.  When you say coiled around, I think you mean coiled hair danced around her cheeks and forehead.  Also not sure about the "hit the territory."  Perhaps meandered or maybe just, "Light freckles sprinkled across her nose and cheeks."  Or, "she didn't like to wear a lot of makeup, so the freckles sprinkled across her nose and cheeks gave her a natural intelligent look."  I always try to tie the physical appearance to a personal characteristic.
> 
> But I'm drawn to the description.  It's not so stereo-typical.


Yeah I'm having a hard time describing her hair style. I'm not a cosmetologist haha
Oop I meant ponytail. It's half up and down. Only a part of her hair is up. Yeah her hair is coiled not her hair is coiling. I worded that odd. I used splattered not sprinkled because I'm thinking of it in the terms of flicking paint and having it splatter across the page. I might need to dive into that, if I wanna keep "splattered." Because it's not the most attractive word to use When I said hit the territory of her cheeks I'm trying to show her freckles don't go all away across her cheeks but near her nose. So I came up with that sentence. I should come up with a different one LOL
One thing I noticed I really Iike to do with writing is to is play with words and try and make it sound a bit different. sometimes it works better than others


----------



## Taylor

KeganThompson said:


> Yeah I'm having a hard time describing her hair style. I'm not a cosmetologist haha
> Oop I meant ponytail. It's half up and down. Only a part of her hair is up. Yeah her hair is coiled not her hair is coiling. I worded that odd. I used splattered not sprinkled because I'm thinking of it in the terms of flicking paint and having it splatter across the page. I might need to dive into that, if I wanna keep "splattered." Because it's not the most attractive word to use When I said hit the territory of her cheeks I'm trying to show her freckles don't go all away across her cheeks but near her nose. So I came up with that sentence. I should come up with a different one LOL
> One thing I noticed I really Iike to do with writing is to is play with words and try and make it sound a bit different. sometimes it works better than others


Yeah, I agree, I like it when people used atypical words to describe something and give a strong visual.  Maybe splattered is ok.  I know what you mean about the freckles just lightly dusting the top of the cheeks.  They usually go a little further under the eyes, than just around the nose.  I say keep working on it, using that same approach.


----------



## KeganThompson

Taylor said:


> Yeah, I agree, I like it when people used atypical words to describe something and give a strong visual.  Maybe splattered is ok.  I know what you mean about the freckles just lightly dusting the top of the cheeks.  They usually go a little further under the eyes, than just around the nose.  I say keep working on it, using that same approach.


Maybe I'll use something like 'lightly dusting' 
And will do. Thanks!


----------



## Matchu

Or you could pare it all right back?

_hair coiled  cheeks. freckles splattered the bridge of her nose . caramel skin contrasting hazel eyes _

As an option only.  Diff’rent strokes etc…


----------



## KeganThompson

Matchu said:


> Or you could pare it all right back?
> 
> _hair coiled  cheeks. freckles splattered the bridge of her nose . caramel skin contrasting hazel eyes _
> 
> As an option only.  Diff’rent strokes etc…


I like the simplification. I have simplified a lot of my writing/ rambles. Getting crafter but still not crafty enough


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Is it all good for me to post another snippet here? lol
> So I'm on my first round of editing, which I think will be the hardest. Chapter 2 is soo long and messy. I'm mad at my past self for all the messes I created (And honestly probably still creating. )
> Here is the ORGINAL description of the main female character.
> Ami had big bouncy brown hair curling around her face and shoulders. Light freckles splattered across the bridge of her nose, slightly reaching her cheeks, and her caramel skin tone contrasted her green eyes perfectly.
> My edited version.






KeganThompson said:


> *1/* Thick bouncy brown hair coiled around her cheeks and forehead, baby hairs cut loose from her half updo. A wild puff of hair sprung from her pigtail and bobbed with the slightest of movement. *2/* Light freckles splattered across the bridge of her nose and hit the territory of her cheeks.* 3/* Her caramel skin tone contrasted her green hazel eyes perfectly.



*1/* Is 'updo' a thing? I shave my head so hairdos aren't upper most in my mind. *2/* I can see you're working hard with those verbs. I was sat here for quite some time considering 'splattered' in relation to freckles. It's quite an active and aggressive word to use there. BUT, I think the fact you've ended the sentence with 'hit the territory of her cheek' makes it work. The word is aggressive, yes, but you've justified it by associating it with 'territory'. I like it. *3/* Be a bit braver and trust the reader. They'll know you're referring to the tone and won't literally think her skin is made up of caramel: 'Her caramel skin contrasted with her ...' The inclusion of 'with' just alleviates the repeat of 'her' there. It puts it one tick behind the beat so to speak.



KeganThompson said:


> It's better but idk if it's giving the depiction I want. she is mixed and I'm trying to describe the texture.  also I don't know if I like "bouncy brown" maybe describe it as chocolate?? Editing has been a lot and I just need some good ol' motivation. I gotta a lot to edit and draft my friends



Yeah, brown is a little dull. 'Chocolate' would be better, but likening the colour to some brown only YOU would think of would be even better. 

There's no need to ask, man, just post. This is for craft and even a sentence is part of the process. You can spam this thread as much as you like. It's here for YOU. Remember that. Never be afraid of taking every opportunity to learn.


----------



## Matchu

I think… … ….zzzz….probably probably…describing somebody’s skin tone as caramel, hair like chocolate, sprinkles across a nose…so nice I could eat her bits…is author crime.  Future justice lords shalll find  thread, & years for you served in Supermax Mars.  You will be quite old by then.

Arguably,


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> *1/* Is 'updo' a thing? I shave my head so hairdos aren't upper most in my mind. *2/* I can see you're working hard with those verbs. I was sat here for quite some time considering 'splattered' in relation to freckles. It's quite an active and aggressive word to use there. BUT, I think the fact you've ended the sentence with 'hit the territory of her cheek' makes it work. The word is aggressive, yes, but you've justified it by associating it with 'territory'. I like it. *3/* Be a bit braver and trust the reader. They'll know you're referring to the tone and won't literally think her skin is made up of caramel: 'Her caramel skin contrasted with her ...' The inclusion of 'with' just alleviates the repeat of 'her' there. It puts it one tick behind the beat so to speak.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, brown is a little dull. 'Chocolate' would be better, but likening the colour to some brown only YOU would think of would be even better.
> 
> There's no need to ask, man, just post. This is for craft and even a sentence is part of the process. You can spam this thread as much as you like. It's here for YOU. Remember that. Never be afraid of taking every opportunity to learn.


Yes updo is a thing. You made me second guess myself so I googled it. Lol It just mean the hair is put up. I accidentally wrote pigtail and not ponytail so it's a big confusing.
Ok so you think splattered works with the sentence? Taylor suggested sprinkled,which is cute, but I was thinking as on terms of flicking paint off a brush and how little splatters go across the page. I didn't know if I should go on depth with that analogy or leave it as. I will find a better word for brown. And be more direct with describing her skin

-I shall abuse this thread then lol.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Yes updo is a thing. You made me second guess myself so I googled it. Lol It just mean the hair is put up. I accidentally wrote pigtail and not ponytail so it's a big confusing.
> Ok so you think splattered works with the sentence? Taylor suggested sprinkled,which is cute, but I was thinking as on terms of flicking paint off a brush and how little splatters go across the page. I didn't know if I should go on depth with that analogy or leave it as. I will find a better word for brown. And be more direct with describing her skin
> 
> -I shall abuse this thread then lol.


Yeah, I like 'splattered' with reservations. It needs to be mirrored tonally throughout. I was judging it as a standalone sentence there. 'Sprinkled' would be the better neutral alternative. 'Speckled' would be another. But as far as developing a voice of your own, 'splattered' offers more opportunity, as you've proven by the way it made you finish off the sentence. This may or may not be the best vehicle for that tone. Only you can decide that. But if I was coming at this and looking at it as a whole, I'd likely play it safe with a neutral word. You can still end the sentence in the same way I think.

What about 'spattered'? That's less aggressive and not so neutral.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> Yeah, I like 'splattered' with reservations. It needs to be mirrored tonally throughout. I was judging it as a standalone sentence there. 'Sprinkled' would be the better neutral alternative. 'Speckled' would be another. But as far as developing a voice of your own, 'splattered' offers more opportunity, as you've proven by the way it made you finish off the sentence. This may or may not be the best vehicle for that tone. Only you can decide that. But if I was coming at this and looking at it as a whole, I'd likely play it safe with a neutral word. You can still end the sentence in the same way I think.
> 
> What about 'spattered'? That's less aggressive and not so neutral.


Ah I see what you are saying...the sentence alone works but int context it's a little strong because how I am describing her in the whole paragraph.
...I like spattered. Gives me a similar visual but isn't as strong. I initially didn't think splattered as an aggressive verb because I was thinking of it in terms of cute little paint splatters but without that visual in mind, I see how it comes off strong. Plus he is describing a female character, so it's best to keep the details a little 'softer'
I will continue to play around with it


----------



## Matchu

Although describing a woman’s freckles as spattered across her face, splattered between her eyes, sprinkled over her nose…does risk affecting her confidence somewhat for a lifetime to come…also in the moment risks your beating at the hands of any family member + neutral observers.

mmm, her freckles like tiny and delicious liver spots

?


----------



## KeganThompson

Matchu said:


> Although describing a woman’s freckles as spattered across her face, splattered between her eyes, sprinkled over her nose…does risk affecting her confidence somewhat for a lifetime to come…also in the moment risks your beating at the hands of any family member + neutral observers.


Well...it's a good think he isn't saying it out loud then  idk why people, girls in particular don't like their freckles. I think they are cute and give character


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Ah I see what you are saying...the sentence alone works but int context it's a little strong because how I am describing her in the whole paragraph.
> ...I like spattered. Gives me a similar visual but isn't as strong. I initially didn't think splattered as an aggressive verb because I was thinking of it in terms of cute little paint splatters but without that visual in mind, I see how it comes off strong*. Plus he is describing a female character, so it's best to keep the details a little 'softer'*
> I will continue to play around with it


I can agree with that to a degree. Women are softer in shape and skin but women can be handsome too. Michael Moorcock often referred to his female cast as handsome. That's just a side note. Here you want what you would consider 'the norm'. Don't just consider the word though, consider the sound too. In general: Soft 's', 'sh', 'th', 'f', 'm', 'n' etc. Hard: 'b', 'd', 'c', 'ch', 'p' etc. And note the relationship between the words: She swam slowly through the silent waters'. 'He pushed onward through the prickly thicket.'


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## Matchu

Yes - freckles are nice.  

Her visage enhanced by freckles: 

‘like tiny advertisements for her core soul of inner perfection’ [barfff] thought the eighteen-year-old boyfriend Hector.  He humped  the sofa’s arm.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> I can agree with that to a degree. Women are softer in shape and skin but women can be handsome too. Michael Moorcock often referred to his female cast as handsome. That's just a side note. Here you want what you would consider 'the norm'. Don't just consider the word though, consider the sound too. In general: Soft 's', 'sh', 'th', 'f', 'm', 'n' etc. Hard: 'b', 'd', 'c', 'ch', 'p' etc. And note the relationship between the words: She swam slowly through the silent waters'. 'He pushed onward through the prickly thicket.'


Women can be described as handsome, I've heard it but rarely. I'd would say it's more common to describe a male as pretty and beautiful than to describe a women as handsome. (In my own personal observation)
woah getting into phonetics now-I got enough to consider. Haha but yes some words have a harsher sound to them.
I was meaning more like- when describing her it's better to use softer sounding words to help convey that quality about her. Using words with harsh sounds will not give off the impression needed.


----------



## KeganThompson

Matchu said:


> Yes - freckles are nice.
> 
> Her visage enhanced by freckles:
> 
> ‘like tiny advertisements for her core soul of inner perfection’ [barfff] thought the eighteen-year-old boyfriend Hector.  He humped  the sofa’s arm.


You're a quirky one aren't you hahaha


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Women can be described as handsome, I've heard it but rarely. I'd would say it's more common to describe a male as pretty and beautiful than to describe a women as handsome. (In my own personal observation)
> woah getting into phonetics now-I got enough to consider. Haha but yes some words have a harsher sound to them.
> I was meaning more like- *when describing her it's better to use softer sounding words to help convey that quality about her.* Using words with harsh sounds will not give off the impression needed.


Yes. Don't get too hung up on what I said though. Save it for 'special' occasions and sometimes when for some reason the sentence feels clunky.


----------



## Taylor

KeganThompson said:


> Ah I see what you are saying...the sentence alone works but int context it's a little strong because how I am describing her in the whole paragraph.
> ...I like spattered. Gives me a similar visual but isn't as strong. I initially didn't think splattered as an aggressive verb because I was thinking of it in terms of cute little paint splatters but without that visual in mind, I see how it comes off strong. Plus he is describing a female character, so it's best to keep the details a little 'softer'
> I will continue to play around with it


It's so interesting that AZ with his keen mind for metaphors picked up on your use of "splattered " and "hit the territory", whereas I didn't even notice it.  That's why those words stood out to me.  I was keenly interested in getting to know the character, and the use of the metaphor, although, now I see is quite clever, didn't tell me anything about her. And as I think about it more, it almost introduces another subject, because "hit" is a verb, suggesting an action by someone...who?

That's why writing is an art.  It's up to you, how you want people to see it.  Testing it out here is a great way to figure that out.  Here you see two people read it differently.  And I agree with AZ, that finding your voice is important.  Before you can write, you need to understand who your audience is and then tailor your voice to that audience.


----------



## KeganThompson

Taylor said:


> It's so interesting that AZ with his keen mind for metaphors picked up on your use of "splattered " and "hit the target", whereas I didn't even notice it.  That's why those words stood out to me.  I was keenly interested in getting to know the character, and the use of the metaphor, although, now I see is quite clever, didn't tell me anything about her. And as I think about it more, it almost introduces another subject, because "hit" is a verb, suggesting an action by someone...who?
> 
> That's why writing is an art.  It's up to you, how you want people to see it.  Testing it out here is a great way to figure that out.  Here you see two people read it differently.  And I agree with AZ, that finding your voice is important.  Before you can write, you need to understand who your audience is and then tailor your voice to that audience.


I have visuals on my head and emotions but it's just finding the right words to string together to accurately depict what I'm seeing without it soundly dull or cliche.
I'm still playing around with it, think I got the basic idea together it's just finding the right words
I'm still trying to find my voice. I know it's a YA but...I have a lot to figure out and work on. From the plot to the craft to spag ect. The complete story is still a bit of a mystery to me as a pantser lol


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> I have visuals on my head and emotions but it's just finding the right words to string together to accurately depict what I'm seeing without it soundly dull or cliche.
> I'm still playing around with it, think I got the basic idea together it's just finding the right words
> I'm still trying to find my voice. I know it's a YA but...I have a lot to figure out and work on. From the plot to the craft to spag ect. The complete story is still a bit of a mystery to me as a pantser lol


What you got so far? Let's have a bit of a bash at it.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> What you got so far? Let's have a bit of a bash at it.


What do I have so far? like story-wise?


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> What do I have so far? like story-wise?


No, the paragraph we've been going over. If you post it, I can have a stab at working with it rather than just critiquing it.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> No, the paragraph we've been going over. If you post it, I can have a stab at working with it rather than just critiquing it.


Ah. I havent changed what I have so far. I am finishing up my "sweep" of my draft of chapter two BUT I will mess with it some more and post it. Sorry for the confusion and thank you


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

I keep pulling up on these two sentences. The question is does 'pain' suit the definition that follows. 'Discomfort' doesn't feel strong enough and flops about like a banked carp. Either 'pain' stands or I need an alternative word, or phrasing of the fist sentence. What about 'sufferance'?

Pain gave him some resolution. He hungered and thirsted, ached and weakened just like the next man.
Sufferance gave him some resolution. He hungered and thirsted, ached and weakened just like the next man.


----------



## JBF

In question form, have you considered:

'Pain fed his resolve'.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

JBF said:


> In question form, have you considered:
> 
> 'Pain fed his resolve'.


I like that. It has the same problem though. Is pain too strong a word for the definition? I like the 'feeding of' approach though regardless.

Sufferance fed his resolve? Too grand?


----------



## JBF

I wouldn't say it's technically wrong. 

If I'm reading this correct this is a kind of cerebral pain that comes more from his sense of displacement with the world(s) he's passing through.  That he's at once in them but somehow apart.  There's a good term for this skulking around the edges of my brain that hides every time I point the flashlight at it.

Edit: sense of dispossession, maybe?


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

JBF said:


> I wouldn't say it's technically wrong.
> 
> If I'm reading this correct this is a kind of cerebral pain that comes more from his sense of displacement with the world(s) he's passing through.  That he's at once in them but somehow apart.  There's a good term for this skulking around the edges of my brain that hides every time I point the flashlight at it.


Yes, it wasn't meant to be pain in the literal sense but because it's short and snappy, I worry it comes across literally. It's interesting you saw that distinction though. Perhaps I'm not trusting the reader there.

He has no sense of time or place. His objectives give him purpose and the pain makes him feel alive. 'He was no ghost'.


----------



## Phil Istine

TheMightyAz said:


> I keep pulling up on these two sentences. The question is does 'pain' suit the definition that follows. 'Discomfort' doesn't feel strong enough and flops about like a banked carp. Either 'pain' stands or I need an alternative word, or phrasing of the fist sentence. What about 'sufferance'?
> 
> Pain gave him some resolution. He hungered and thirsted, ached and weakened just like the next man.
> Sufferance gave him some resolution. He hungered and thirsted, ached and weakened just like the next man.


Would it be better to avoid those sentences completely, as those facts could be shown in the story by working particular instances into it?


----------



## Matchu

Show him having some pain, some more tangible sense of discomfortitures, drawing the rusty nail from his palm, eating scorpions.  Otherwise, reader gets to wondering why such bellyache with nice clothes, pet crow and a horse, I have none of those things.  Bloke thinks he’s Highlander [sniff] - and at this point - that’s when the writer thinks ‘actually, he’s not my hero, ahah he is my bad guy…’


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Phil Istine said:


> Would it be better to avoid those sentences completely, as those facts could be shown in the story by working particular instances into it?


I wanted to establish how he feels before walking him across the desert. The story is about why he feels that way and how he resolves it. Because I wanted to hit the floor running, I decided to nail that first and quickly. You could be right and perhaps I'll consider that in the drafting, but right now I'm happy-ish with the approach.

You've given me an idea though ... On the walk across the desert, what natural dangers could he face in order to show him ignoring them? Perhaps I need to fill in more on the idea of the heat and describe what it's doing to him in more detail? Then contrast that with how he views the discomfort.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Matchu said:


> Show him having some pain, some more tangible sense of discomfortitures, drawing the rusty nail from his palm, eating scorpions.  Otherwise, reader gets to wondering why such bellyache with nice clothes, pet crow and a horse, I have none of those things.  Bloke thinks he’s Highlander [sniff] - and at this point - that’s when the writer thinks ‘actually, he’s not my hero, ahah he is my bad guy…’


Yes, Phil Istine has said as much too. Perhaps I do need a little more in the walk across the desert. It's quite an empty place though so I'd have to draw more heavily on the heat. I was originally going to introduce the carcass of a cow to represent the dangers of the desert and didn't include it in the end. I'll rethink and perhaps add that in too. Now ... there could be a scorpion hidden in that carcass. Oh my God, and here I was thinking I'd finished with the opening section and was only struggling with the transition. 

Cheers the both of you ... NOT!


----------



## Matchu

I know it’s fun to post bits - but it is a much longer process - and I wasn’t kidding about ‘hmmm, good guy should be my bad guy’ - the kind of thing that happens all the time when you’re ‘in’t zone.’

You’ll end up writing 4000 words in the desert.  In three years time you might use six of them.

(possibly)


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## Kent_Jacobs

Matchu said:


> I know it’s fun to post bits - but it is a much longer process - and I wasn’t kidding about ‘hmmm, good guy should be my bad guy’ - the kind of thing that happens all the time when you’re ‘in’t zone.’
> 
> You’ll end up writing 4000 words in the desert.  In three years time you might use six of them.
> 
> (possibly)


Mate, could you not post things like this in this thread, please. You might think it's 'fun to post bits' but in my opinion (and others) learning the basic craft is the bedrock of writing. It's THE most important thing for beginners and intermediates. If you don't agree with the premise of the thread, don't engage. All it does is put people off engaging with a thread about posting 'fun little bits'.


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## Kent_Jacobs

I just realised, it could be the definition that's incorrect. Instead of writing:

Pain gave him some resolution. He hungered and thirsted, ached and weakened just like the next man.

If I write:

Pain gave him some resolution. He hungered and thirsted, suffered and weakened just like the next man.

Then it fits much better


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## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> What you got so far? Let's have a bit of a bash at it.



Placing my phone down next to the tray of food, I glanced at the girl. I recognized her from physical science and homeroom. Though I’ve seen her, I never really looked at her. Thick bouncy brown hair coiled around her cheeks and forehead, baby hairs cut loose from her half updo. A puff of hair sprung from her ponytail and bobbed with the slightest of movement. Light freckles splattered across the bridge of her nose and hit the territory of her cheeks. Her caramel skin contrasted her hazel eyes perfectly.
...
Placing my phone down next to the tray of food, I glanced at the girl. I recognized her from physical science and homeroom. Though I’ve seen her, I never really _looked_ at her. Thick chocolate hair spiraled around her cheeks and forehead, baby hairs cut loose from her half updo. Her puff of a ponytail bobbed with the slightest of movement. Light freckles clustered across the bridge of her nose and spattered the territory of her cheeks. Her caramel skin contrasted her hazel eyes perfectly.

aight so I am trying to convey her hair texture. I dont think coil(s) quite works because she is mixed and her hair is a bit loser than that. When I wrote a puff of hair sprung from her ponytail, it made it sound like the puff was separate from her actual ponytail but the puff _is_ suppose to be her ponytail. its thick and fluffy/curly- I cut out bouncy because spirals show its curly and bobbed also gives the picture of it being bouncy so i didnt see a need for it.
I played with the sentence of her freckles some more. still dont know how I feel about it-my goal is to have the reader picture her freckles on her nose fade out onto her cheeks where they are less clustered/softer


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## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Placing my phone down next to the tray of food, I glanced at the girl. I recognized her from physical science and homeroom. Though I’ve seen her, I never really looked at her. Thick bouncy brown hair coiled around her cheeks and forehead, baby hairs cut loose from her half updo. A puff of hair sprung from her ponytail and bobbed with the slightest of movement. Light freckles splattered across the bridge of her nose and hit the territory of her cheeks. Her caramel skin contrasted her hazel eyes perfectly.
> ...
> Placing my phone down next to the tray of food, I glanced at the girl. I recognized her from physical science and homeroom. Though I’ve seen her, I never really _looked_ at her. Thick chocolate hair spiraled around her cheeks and forehead, baby hairs cut loose from her half updo. Her puff of a ponytail bobbed with the slightest of movement. Light freckles clustered across the bridge of her nose and spattered the territory of her cheeks. Her caramel skin contrasted her hazel eyes perfectly.



What do you mean by 'baby hairs cut loose from her half updo'? I'll give it a stab when I understand that bit. In all honesty though, it's looking far tighter.


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## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> What do you mean by 'baby hairs cut loose from her half updo'? I'll give it a stab when I understand that bit. In all honesty though, it's looking far tighter.


So when girls put their hair in a half ponytail. So only the top portion is pulled up and she has curly hair, small baby hair spring out and curl. Does that make sense? Is the "half updo" getting you? Lol if you have a suggestion to make the visual a bit clearer I'm here for it
And glad to hear it! Now I will just have to sit and comb over all my other paragraphs multiple times until I get it right.


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## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> So when girls put their hair in a half ponytail. So only the top portion is pulled up and she has curly hair, small baby hair spring out and curl. Does that make sense? Is the "half updo" getting you? Lol if you have a suggestion to make the visual a bit clearer I'm here for it
> And glad to hear it! Now I will just have to sit and comb over all my other paragraphs multiple times until I get right


No, the 'cut' was throwing me out. It sounds like they're cut and so therefore not there. You're talking about hair here. When associating 'cut' with hair, it's inevitably going to be related to the obvious.

Placing my phone down next to the tray of food, I glanced at the girl. I recognized her from physical science and homeroom. Though I’ve seen her, I never really _watched_ at her. Thick chocolate curls kissed her cheeks and forehead, peach fuzz shifting gently in her half updo, catching the whitest light. Her ponytail bobbed with the slightest of movement. Freckles spattered the bridge of her nose and lightly dusted the territory of her cheeks. Her caramel skin contrasted with her hazel eyes.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> No, the 'cut' was throwing me out. It sounds like they're cut and so therefore not there. You're talking about hair here. When associating 'cut' with hair, it's inevitably going to be related to the obvious.
> 
> Placing my phone down next to the tray of food, I glanced at the girl. I recognized her from physical science and homeroom. Though I’ve seen her, I never really _watched_ at her. Thick chocolate curls kissed her cheeks and forehead, peach fuzz shifting gently in her half updo, catching the whitest light. Her ponytail bobbed with the slightest of movement. Freckles spattered the bridge of her nose and lightly dusted the territory of her cheeks. Her caramel skin contrasted with her hazel eyes.


ahh i see i see-I know you asked something like if updo was a thing lol. Yeah when I wrote cut loose I was thinking in terms of wild but since its relating to hair it doesn't quite work. I might place sprung there instead. Instead of puff maybe say ringlets? gives it a cleaner visual, yes? I thought about using dusted when describing her freckles but I thought i'd play with it some more. How do you feel about "clustered"?
I stared at different variations of brown to find something other than chocolate but the other words I liked didnt seem to fit for me, chestnut seemed too light and hickory makes me think of hickory smoked bacon haha.
and I think I will take out the "perfectly" at the end.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> ahh i see i see-I know you asked something like if updo was a thing lol. Yeah when I wrote cut loose I was thinking in terms of wild but since its relating to hair it doesn't quite work. I might place sprung there instead. Instead of puff maybe say ringlets? gives it a cleaner visual, yes? I thought about using dusted when describing her freckles but I thought i'd play with it some more. How do you feel about "clustered"?
> I stared at different variations of brown to find something other than chocolate but the other words I liked didnt seem to fit for me, chestnut seemed too light and hickory makes me think of hickory smoked bacon haha.
> and I think I will take out the "perfectly" at the end.


You said you wanted the idea of the freckles being quite thick and then thinning out. You could write:

Freckles clustered around the bridge of her nose and lightly dusted the territory of her cheeks.

In which case I'd then remove 'the territory of' To remove the repeat of 'her', I'd add a colour

Freckles clustered around the bridge of her nose and lightly dusted flushed cheeks.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> You said you wanted the idea of the freckles being quite thick and then thinning out. You could write:
> 
> Freckles clustered around the bridge of her nose and lightly dusted the territory of her cheeks.
> 
> In which case I'd then remove 'the territory of' To remove the repeat of 'her', I'd add a colour
> 
> Freckles clustered around the bridge of her nose and lightly dusted flushed cheeks.


tbh I kinda like "territory of" I think its an interesting way of putting it. I was thinking of giving the freckles a color (cinnamon) it would go with the caramel / chocolate description. I do agree chopping out a "her" from the paragraph would be good.  
side note-nothing to do with the paragraph but as far as pacing goes. do you have any recommendations on how to better work on that? I did a sweep of chapter 1 and 2 and YES still needs a lot of work. but I cut a lot out. I had so much info dumping and really bad narration. a lot of "was" "I guess" "that"  "was doing" for example instead of "did. "stuff like that. I am working on craft but my story structure and pacing needs a lot of work too along with honing in ideas I have for the remaining draft/ edits. Some areas need to focus on more descriptions than others. Not sure if i wanna take a break editing with basic "sweeps" do some more drafting or start coming over my first chapter to work on craft and make feel a little less distain for it. yes- so many options. i'm going to have to work on every aspect regardless.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> tbh I kinda like "territory of" I think its an interesting way of putting it. I was thinking of giving the freckles a color (cinnamon) it would go with the caramel / chocolate description. I do agree chopping out a "her" from the paragraph would be good.
> side note-nothing to do with the paragraph but as far as pacing goes. do you have any recommendations on how to better work on that? I did a sweep of chapter 1 and 2 and YES still needs a lot of work. but I cut a lot out. I had so much info dumping and really bad narration. a lot of "was" "I guess" "that"  "was doing" for example instead of "did. "stuff like that. I am working on craft but my story structure and pacing needs a lot of work too along with honing in ideas I have for the remaining draft/ edits. Some areas need to focus on more descriptions than others. Not sure if i wanna take a break editing with basic "sweeps" do some more drafting or start coming over my first chapter to work on craft and make feel a little less distain for it. yes- so many options. i'm going to have to work on every aspect regardless.


You mean pacing in the broader sense? It's not really something you can cover here. Pacing as far as words used and length of sentences, yes, but on a scene by scene bases, the best option is to post in the Fiction Workshop section. 

My advise would be to post individual scenes in that section and sentences/paragraphs to hone your craft in this section.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> You mean pacing in the broader sense? It's not really something you can cover here. Pacing as far as words used and length of sentences, yes, but on a scene by scene bases, the best option is to post in the Fiction Workshop section.
> 
> My advise would be to post individual scenes in that section and sentences/paragraphs to hone your craft in this section.


Ok so you recommend posting in fiction workshop like I did with the snippet a while ago to help with transitions/ pacing? Ok I will keep that in mind. I know you said the first (rough) draft of chapter one had "good animation" but I know the pacing/ transitions are still a little off- or maybe completely off


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Ok so you recommend posting in fiction workshop like I did with the snippet a while ago to help with transitions/ pacing? Ok I will keep that in mind. I know you said the first (rough) draft of chapter one had "good animation" but I know the pacing/ transitions are still a little off- or maybe completely off


The very reason I started this thread was because I realised that section is too broad in scope and the pieces far too long to break down in the way we do here. In that section, you can ask specifically about pacing and in order for people to critique it, you will have to post a lengthy piece. There's no way of deciding pacing and scene pacing in snippets.

On a line by line bases, we can discuss pacing here, but it's not quite the same thing.

In here: sentence by paragraph pacing.
Over there: scene by chapter pacing.


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## KeganThompson

Well my snippet of a few paragraphs got more feed back than my lengthy chapter so I thought a wide section of a chapter would be better than the whole thing. Enough to get a feel for the pacing atleast. But maybe not. I'd say the nuances of craft are a bit more difficult than maybe basic pacing. 
I'm sure you'll be seeing me in both sections regardless-so get use to seeing my dog if you haven't already haha


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Well my snippet of a few paragraphs got more feed back than my lengthy chapter so I thought a wide section of a chapter would be better than the whole thing. Enough to get a feel for the pacing atleast. But maybe not. I'd say the nuances of craft are a bit more difficult than maybe basic pacing.
> I'm sure you'll be seeing me in both sections regardless-so get use to seeing my dog if you haven't already haha


I've got no doubt I'll be seeing you in here quite often


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Well my snippet of a few paragraphs got more feed back than my lengthy chapter so I thought a wide section of a chapter would be better than the whole thing. Enough to get a feel for the pacing atleast. But maybe not. I'd say the nuances of craft are a bit more difficult than maybe basic pacing.
> I'm sure you'll be seeing me in both sections regardless-so get use to seeing my dog if you haven't already haha


Sorry, I had a bit of a headache yesterday and didn't read this properly. I set a limit of 3 paragraphs here to make sure too much wasn't posted. If you think 3 paragraphs is enough to judge pacing then by all means post those 3 paragraphs.


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## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> Sorry, I had a bit of a headache yesterday and didn't read this properly. I set a limit of 3 paragraphs here to make sure too much wasn't posted. If you think 3 paragraphs is enough to judge pacing then by all means post tho


Obviously, 3 paragraphs won't tell you the whole pacing of the chapter but if I am posting a section where the scene is switching, it might help me get some insight on the basic feel. I also need to post a dialogue scene, because I don't know how good my characters' interactions are either haha. glad to know there is a 3 paragraph limit to this section.


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## KeganThompson

Original

The sound of the alert pierced my ears. The vibration of my phone against the hardwood along with continuous beeping annoyed me. I picked up my phone from the breakfast bar and checked my screen. A flash flood warning. The summer storm beat against the kitchen window. Mom turned up the volume and flicked the channel to the news after silencing her alert. A suicide belonging to Pacific Coast High School in Oregon.
“Jeez, another one?” I said leaning on the arm of the couch.
The anchor named the eighteen-year-old senior, Michael Getz, as the fifth suicide victim of P.C.H. The suicides didn’t become country-wide news until number three, a junior named Veronica...or was her name Victoria? Number four was a guy but I couldn't recall his name or grade. Their names, grades, and causes of death muddled after a couple of weeks. 
The first suicide of P.C.H happened on May 18th, 2014. The news outlets and investigators claimed she was suffering from depression and hung herself from a pipe in the basement and her suicide set off a chain reaction.  What baffled the public was no link between the students was found and school had been out for the summer when the suicides occurred. All except for the first one. She offed herself at the end of the school year, and the others rode her coattails.

first rework.

The sound of the alert pierced my ears. The vibration of my phone knocked against the hardwood. I plucked the phone from the breakfast bar and silenced the alert. A flash flood warning. The summer storm beating against the kitchen window, mom turned the volume up and flicked the channel to the news. A student from Pacific Coast High School in Oregon committed suicide.
"Jeez, another one?" I said, leaning on the arm of the couch.
The anchor named the eighteen-year-old senior, Michael Getz, as the fifth suicide victim of P.C.H. The suicides didn’t become country-wide news until number three, a junior named Veronica...or was her name Victoria? I couldn't recall number four's name or grade. Their names, ages, and causes of death muddled after a couple of weeks.
The first suicide of P.C.H happened on _May 18th, 2014._ The news outlets claimed she suffered from depression and hung herself from a pipe in the basement. Her suicide set off a chain reaction. No link was found between the students. They weren't friends, hardly classmates. More baffling, the suicides occurred during the summer. All except for the first one. She offed herself at the end of the school year, and the others rode her coattails.

It's better but I'm still struggling with some phrasing. First of all, how do you feel about "plucked" instead of "snatched"? I took out the "annoyed" part because if the sound is piercing his ears and he is plucking/snatching the phone then it's implied he's annoyed. besides, we all know those things are annoying. I took out the part where the mom turns off her alert because it isn't necessary really. the last sentence of the first paragraph still gets me.
"A student from Pacific Coast High School in Oregon committed suicide." - I don't want to mention a number or say another because the MC says "another" and how many suicides in the next paragraph. but it comes off kinda awkward with its vagueness.  
"They weren't friends, hardly classmates. More baffling, the suicides occurred during the summer."- also kinda awkward. I'm trying to convey that they weren't friends and were all different grades etc and it's extra odd because it's during the summer. usually, kids influence each other while at school or if they are friends-but not this case. 
...i'mma lay down for now. I had a bit of a day tbh lol any and all advice pls~


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## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> first rework.
> 
> *1/ *The sound of the alert pierced my ears. *2/ *The vibration of my phone knocked against the hardwood. *3/* I plucked the phone from the breakfast bar and silenced the alert. A flash flood warning. *4/* The summer storm beating against the kitchen window, mom turned the volume up and flicked the channel to the news. *5/* A student from Pacific Coast High School in Oregon committed suicide.



*1/ *'sound' sits there a little impotently. It's a missed opportunity for a stronger word. In this case you end on 'pierced my ears' so the sound is a strong sound or related to the idea of piercing. Taking that into consideration, you could choose something like 'pitch' (directly related to pierce) or 'din' (a loud sound likely to pierce). You don't have to choose from either. Just see if you can find a stronger word. *2/* The problem with this sentence is two fold. The construction is exactly the same as the first sentence and you've relegated vibration, making 'knocked against' your verb for it's effect on the wood. *'The phone vibrated on the hardwood table.'* I'd consider amalgamating the two sentences too: *'The din of the alert pierced my ears as it vibrated on the hardwood table.'* *3/ *'Plucked' is a good word but it's a small action, almost dainty. It's a sound that's piercing the ears. I'd consider something stronger like 'snatched' which shows more exacerbation. You've mentioned breakfast bar here when you referred to it as hardwood in the previous sentence. I'd use breakfast bar in the previous sentence and remove it from the 3rd sentence. And there's no need to repeat phone:* 'The din of the alert pierced my ears as it vibrated against the breakfast bar. I snatched it up and hit mute.' 4/ *I think you have two sentences here. 'The summer storm beating against the kitchen window, mom turned ...' Because you've used the gerund version of 'beating', it doesn't quite feel right. You have to add something to show it was because of the sound of the rain your mother turned the volume up. 'beating' could be changed to something sound related like 'drummed' but you'd still have a slightly odd sentence. Make it two sentences and it sounds better:* 'A summer storm drummed against the kitchen window. Mom turned the volume of the TV up and flicked the channel to the news.' 5/ *This is an instance where I'd want to put back in a 'had'. *'A student from Pacific Coast High School in Oregon had committed suicide.' *edit: Because you keep using P.C.H below, verify here that all the suicides are in that school. 'A fifth student from ...' That will negate the need to keep using P.C.H.  



KeganThompson said:


> "Jeez, another one?" I said, leaning on the arm of the couch.



He's on the couch so where is this breakfast bar? Would he be able to reach the breakfast bar from the couch? Or do you mean he's stood next to the couch and leans on the arm? I'd imagine that's what you meant. If you say 'leaning on the back of the couch' then any ambiguity is removed. If you take the couch as a whole, that would remove any ambiguity too: 'leaning on the couch'. It makes it an object in the room you are leaning on as apposed to something you could be sitting in. On the other hand, you could have him 'leaning on the breakfast bar.'  



KeganThompson said:


> *1/* The anchor named the eighteen-year-old senior, Michael Getz, as the fifth suicide victim of P.C.H. *2/* The suicides didn’t become country-wide news until number three, a junior named Veronica*[space]*...*[space]*or was her name Victoria? *3**/* I couldn't recall number four's name or grade. Their names, ages, and causes of death muddled after a couple of weeks.



*1/ *You've related the suicides to the school and so don't need to keep adding P.C.H. *2/* 'until number three' is slightly awkward. 'until the third victim' would be better. *3/* The same. '... the fourth victim's name ...



KeganThompson said:


> The first suicide of P.C.H happened on _May 18th, 2014._ The news outlets claimed she suffered from depression and hung herself from a pipe in the basement. *1/* Her suicide set off a chain reaction. No link was found between the students. They weren't friends, hardly classmates. *2/ *More baffling, the suicides occurred during the summer. All except for the first one. She offed herself at the end of the school year, and the others rode her coattails.


*1/* I'd want to make sure this was the claim of the news anchors and not a statement of fact: *'The news outlets said she suffered from depression and hung herself from a pipe in the basement. They claimed it set of a chain reaction.' *I'm also not keen on 'chain reaction'. Something like 'copycat suicides' would be better, although with something as serious as this, a simple sentence feels wrong. I'd want more meat on the bone from the reporting. Not an info dump. Just something meatier. *2/* You're making a definitive statement with this sentence and then in the next sentence mention not all of them.* 'More baffling, except for the first, the suicides occurred during the summer.'* is a rough fix but still not great. Why was it baffling that they happened in the summer? If it's not needed, that makes the fix feel better:* 'Except for the first, they occurred during the summer.' *This creates a slight problem for the last sentence though. Easily remedied by using her name instead of 'she'. 

You mentioned pacing before. I feel this scene moves too quickly. You need to take more time here, not only because we need fuller reports from the police/archors but because this is a scene about a heavy subject and so that heaviness needs to be reflected in some way. In this case a little more description I think. Make that air crackle. But don't mention why outright. Let it hang there in the words chosen and the construct of the sentences.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> *1/ *'sound' sits there a little impotently. It's a missed opportunity for a stronger word. In this case you end on 'pierced my ears' so the sound is a strong sound or related to the idea of piercing. Taking that into consideration, you could choose something like 'pitch' (directly related to pierce) or 'din' (a loud sound likely to pierce). You don't have to choose from either. Just see if you can find a stronger word. *2/* The problem with this sentence is two fold. The construction is exactly the same as the first sentence and you've relegated vibration, making 'knocked against' your verb for it's effect on the wood. *'The phone vibrated on the hardwood table.'* I'd consider amalgamating the two sentences too: *'The din of the alert pierced my ears as it vibrated on the hardwood table.'* *3/ *'Plucked' is a good word but it's a small action, almost dainty. It's a sound that's piercing the ears. I'd consider something stronger like 'snatched' which shows more exacerbation. You've mentioned breakfast bar here when you referred to it as hardwood in the previous sentence. I'd use breakfast bar in the previous sentence and remove it from the 3rd sentence. And there's no need to repeat phone:* 'The din of the alert pierced my ears as it vibrated against the breakfast bar. I snatched it up and hit mute.' 4/ *I think you have two sentences here. 'The summer storm beating against the kitchen window, mom turned ...' Because you've used the gerund version of 'beating', it doesn't quite feel right. You have to add something to show it was because of the sound of the rain your mother turned the volume up. 'beating' could be changed to something sound related like 'drummed' but you'd still have a slightly odd sentence. Make it two sentences and it sounds better:* 'A summer storm drummed against the kitchen window. Mom turned the volume of the TV up and flicked the channel to the news.' 5/ *This is an instance where I'd want to put back in a 'had'. *'A student from Pacific Coast High School in Oregon had committed suicide.' *edit: Because you keep using P.C.H below, verify here that all the suicides are in that school. 'A fifth student from ...' That will negate the need to keep using P.C.H.
> 
> 
> 
> He's on the couch so where is this breakfast bar? Would he be able to reach the breakfast bar from the couch? Or do you mean he's stood next to the couch and leans on the arm? I'd imagine that's what you meant. If you say 'leaning on the back of the couch' then any ambiguity is removed. If you take the couch as a whole, that would remove any ambiguity too: 'leaning on the couch'. It makes it an object in the room you are leaning on as apposed to something you could be sitting in. On the other hand, you could have him 'leaning on the breakfast bar.'
> 
> 
> 
> *1/ *You've related the suicides to the school and so don't need to keep adding P.C.H. *2/* 'until number three' is slightly awkward. 'until the third victim' would be better. *3/* The same. '... the fourth victim's name ...
> 
> 
> *1/* I'd want to make sure this was the claim of the news anchors and not a statement of fact: *'The news outlets said she suffered from depression and hung herself from a pipe in the basement. They claimed it set of a chain reaction.' *I'm also not keen on 'chain reaction'. Something like 'copycat suicides' would be better, although with something as serious as this, a simple sentence feels wrong. I'd want more meat on the bone from the reporting. Not an info dump. Just something meatier. *2/* You're making a definitive statement with this sentence and then in the next sentence mention not all of them.* 'More baffling, except for the first, the suicides occurred during the summer.'* is a rough fix but still not great. Why was it baffling that they happened in the summer? If it's not needed, that makes the fix feel better:* 'Except for the first, they occurred during the summer.' *This creates a slight problem for the last sentence though. Easily remedied by using her name instead of 'she'.
> 
> You mentioned pacing before. I feel this scene moves too quickly. You need to take more time here, not only because we need fuller reports from the police/archors but because this is a scene about a heavy subject and so that heaviness needs to be reflected in some way. In this case a little more description I think. Make that air crackle. But don't mention why outright. Let it hang there in the words chosen and the construct of the sentences.


ahhh not taking it easy on me again I see...but I suppose that's why I post. If I wanted non-chalent feedback I'd continue sharing it with my s/o and only my s/o.
A lot to think about. I will continue working on it after work today. I will find a way to describe the storm. I changed it from two sentences to one because I felt like there needed to be more than "the summer storm beat against the window."  maybe its the "beat" that's throwing me off. but i want it to give an impression on how strong it is.
so he lives in an apartment with his mom. the kitchen and living room flow together and the only thing separating is the carpet and breakfast bar. I can see how close the couch is, but the readers cant. so I should have an action of him walking over, which would be needed (regardless of how big the apparent is). "number 3,4 is a bit awkward but the MC is not taking the thing seriously. He is seeing them as numbers and not people.  makes him sound like a sociopath but i swear he's not lol its something that you see but it doesn't sink in. with that said I will consider changing that to 3rd, 4th and not "number 3"
not gonna lie, I noticed I contracted myself when he said I don't remember then but then says "she" and describes how the first one died. I will add more detail about how her suicide was mentioned in the media when initially, hers wasn't brought up until "number 3" because then ppl recognized a problem. I plan to do more details of the deaths later, when he interacts with the MFC. I want to reveal little by little but I need to decide how much when because I don't wanna info dump but I wanna give enough to keep the reader interested. I might take out her cause of suicide all together for the first death and leave it for later. and simply say she died at the end of the school year and it wasn't mentioned until the 3rd victim.
 To draw out the scene, I think I will focus on his mom's reaction. She is a nurse and a mother so it hits her more than it does the MC. I think that will help with the energy and also get a sense of her character.- and help the pacing
I wanted to say "baffling" because its more common mass hysteria-wise for kids to do copycat things while in school. idk if that is already implied or it's something I can imply later. I  wanted to use the word "baffle" so I tried to force it to work...haha it's not I see. The suicide thing was the plot change, it was an incident that occurred but wasn't the main "starting point" so I am still reworking that. I'm reworking everything...lol I want to focus on the beginning and get to right before I move on to the rest. My problem is,i get too many ideas and I lose clarity on what I want to do. I think I am FINALLY starting to see what I need to do story-wise because I was feeling quite lost for a while there. I think that's why I wasn't having fun writing like I did at first. I was constantly forcing myself to write and nothing felt right. Glad I joined the forum...should've done it sooner


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> ahhh not taking it easy on me again I see...but I suppose that's why I post. If I wanted non-chalent feedback I'd continue sharing it with my s/o and only my s/o.
> A lot to think about. I will continue working on it after work today. I will find a way to describe the storm. I changed it from two sentences to one because I felt like there needed to be more than "the summer storm beat against the window."  maybe its the "beat" that's throwing me off. but i want it to give an impression on how strong it is.
> so he lives in an apartment with his mom. the kitchen and living room flow together and the only thing separating is the carpet and breakfast bar. I can see how close the couch is, but the readers cant. so I should have an action of him walking over, which would be needed (regardless of how big the apparent is). "number 3,4 is a bit awkward but the MC is not taking the thing seriously. He is seeing them as numbers and not people.  makes him sound like a sociopath but i swear he's not lol its something that you see but it doesn't sink in. with that said I will consider changing that to 3rd, 4th and not "number 3"
> not gonna lie, I noticed I contracted myself when he said I don't remember then but then says "she" and describes how the first one died. I will add more detail about how her suicide was mentioned in the media when initially, hers wasn't brought up until "number 3" because then ppl recognized a problem. I plan to do more details of the deaths later, when he interacts with the MFC. I want to reveal little by little but I need to decide how much when because I don't wanna info dump but I wanna give enough to keep the reader interested. I might take out her cause of suicide all together for the first death and leave it for later. and simply say she died at the end of the school year and it wasn't mentioned until the 3rd victim.
> To draw out the scene, I think I will focus on his mom's reaction. She is a nurse and a mother so it hits her more than it does the MC. I think that will help with the energy and also get a sense of her character.- and help the pacing
> I wanted to say "baffling" because its more common mass hysteria-wise for kids to do copycat things while in school. idk if that is already implied or it's something I can imply later. I  wanted to use the word "baffle" so I tried to force it to work...haha it's not I see. The suicide thing was the plot change, it was an incident that occurred but wasn't the main "starting point" so I am still reworking that. I'm reworking everything...lol I want to focus on the beginning and get to right before I move on to the rest. My problem is,i get too many ideas and I lose clarity on what I want to do. I think I am FINALLY starting to see what I need to do story-wise because I was feeling quite lost for a while there. I think that's why I wasn't having fun writing like I did at first. I was constantly forcing myself to write and nothing felt right. Glad I joined the forum...should've done it sooner


What you see there is exactly the same process I go through every time I write, albeit slightly less caustic! I'm not at all bothered bout hurting my own feelings.  I do it all the time. 

I like your responses. It shows me I'm not wasting my time and you're actually taking notes. It also shows me you're willing to defend or back up a decision you made, and that's a good thing to have. That last comment though ... You've got to understand that every single author on this here planet has to force themselves to write sometimes. Don't mistake forcing yourself to write with 'something's wrong'. It's normal, man.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> What you see there is exactly the same process I go through every time I write, albeit slightly less caustic! I'm not at all bothered bout hurting my own feelings.  I do it all the time.
> 
> I like your responses. It shows me I'm not wasting my time and you're actually taking notes. It also shows me you're willing to defend or back up a decision you made, and that's a good thing to have. That last comment though ... You've got to understand that every single author on this here planet has to force themselves to write sometimes. Don't mistake forcing yourself to write with 'something's wrong'. It's normal, man.


an author on youtube I watch said "writing is rewriting." she right and I'm I'm starting to understand how right. lol.
I hurt my feelings all the time. the problem is I can tell myself something sucks but I need some else to tell me why it sucks so I can make it better. I can tell when things, at least major things, are off but can't figure out exactly how or how to fix it. As a new writer, I try to take my time to see whats more of a person's opinion vs something that is more structural in critique. Of course personal feelings about word choice are wanted too, I like to listen and it makes me think more about my word choices and how I personally feel about them too. (if that makes sense)
I should've clarified my last comment more. I know I need to force myself to write, that's normal but as I was drafting I had SUCH a time later on because I knew my beginning was all off and so what I continued to write would be off. That's why I stopped drafting and went back to the beginning. As I'm reworking the beginning I am realizing how off my story is and that feeling that bogged me down as I continued to write wasn't "I don't feel like it" it was me going "this is wayyy off you need to figure it out." the lack of clarity was bothering me. so glad I stopped drafting, wish I did sooner tbh. I think I was in denial about having to almost completely start over, but I need to remind myself you're not writing JUST to have a completed story. You are writing because you like it and you have messages you want to convey and if you wanna make it the best you can, you will have to go over and over and over again. I'm starting to accept that now and learning to be more patient with myself and my story. "its more about the journey and not about the destination" sort of mentality.


----------



## Riptide

KeganThompson said:


> Original
> 
> The sound of the alert pierced my ears. The vibration of my phone against the hardwood along with continuous beeping annoyed me. I picked up my phone from the breakfast bar and checked my screen. A flash flood warning. The summer storm beat against the kitchen window. Mom turned up the volume and flicked the channel to the news after silencing her alert. A suicide belonging to Pacific Coast High School in Oregon.
> “Jeez, another one?” I said leaning on the arm of the couch.
> The anchor named the eighteen-year-old senior, Michael Getz, as the fifth suicide victim of P.C.H. The suicides didn’t become country-wide news until number three, a junior named Veronica...or was her name Victoria? Number four was a guy but I couldn't recall his name or grade. Their names, grades, and causes of death muddled after a couple of weeks.
> The first suicide of P.C.H happened on May 18th, 2014. The news outlets and investigators claimed she was suffering from depression and hung herself from a pipe in the basement and her suicide set off a chain reaction.  What baffled the public was no link between the students was found and school had been out for the summer when the suicides occurred. All except for the first one. She offed herself at the end of the school year, and the others rode her coattails.
> 
> first rework.
> 
> The sound of the alert pierced my ears. -Personally, I'd describe the sound: The ping of the flash flood alert pierced my ears. The vibration of my phone knocked against the hardwood. I plucked the phone from the breakfast bar and silenced the alert. A flash flood warning. The summer storm beating against the kitchen window, mom turned the volume up and flicked the channel to the news. -I'd separate these two clauses. Or change it up: As a summer storm beat against the kitchen window, Mom turned the TV up and flicked to the news. A student from Pacific Coast High School in Oregon committed suicide.
> "Jeez, another one?" I said, leaning on the arm of the couch.
> The anchor named the eighteen-year-old senior, Michael Getz, as the fifth suicide victim of P.C.H. The suicides didn’t become country-wide news until number three, a junior named Veronica...or was her name Victoria? I couldn't recall number four's name or grade. -I'd cut this because you show us this with her trying to remember. And the next sentence describes it better Their names, ages, and causes of death muddled after a couple of weeks.
> The first suicide of P.C.H happened on _May 18th, 2014._ The news outlets claimed she suffered from depression and hung herself from a pipe in the basement of...?. Her suicide set off a chain reaction. No link was found between the students. They weren't friends, hardly classmates. More baffling, the suicides occurred during the summer. All except for the first one who offed herself at the end of the school year - I'd combine this and delete the next couple of lines because it doesn't say anything new about how these people set off a 'chain reaction'. She offed herself at the end of the school year, and the others rode her coattails.
> 
> It's better but I'm still struggling with some phrasing. First of all, how do you feel about "plucked" instead of "snatched"? I took out the "annoyed" part because if the sound is piercing his ears and he is plucking/snatching the phone then it's implied he's annoyed. besides, we all know those things are annoying. I took out the part where the mom turns off her alert because it isn't necessary really. the last sentence of the first paragraph still gets me.
> "A student from Pacific Coast High School in Oregon committed suicide." - I don't want to mention a number or say another because the MC says "another" and how many suicides in the next paragraph. but it comes off kinda awkward with its vagueness.
> "They weren't friends, hardly classmates. More baffling, the suicides occurred during the summer."- also kinda awkward. I'm trying to convey that they weren't friends and were all different grades etc and it's extra odd because it's during the summer. usually, kids influence each other while at school or if they are friends-but not this case.
> ...i'mma lay down for now. I had a bit of a day tbh lol any and all advice pls~


I like 'snatched' instead of 'pluck'

I enjoy the changes you made. Good work! I jsut had a couple of opinions to, in my opinion, make it a little bit stronger


----------



## KeganThompson

Riptide said:


> I like 'snatched' instead of 'pluck'
> 
> I enjoy the changes you made. Good work! I jsut had a couple of opinions to, in my opinion, make it a little bit stronger


I shall listen to ur opinions as long as you are willing to give them. 
I will go with snatched, it will show how annoyed he is. 
What else do you think I need to make stronger? The whole story is important, of course, but this is the very beginning so I want to make it right.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> I shall listen to ur opinions as long as you are willing to give them.
> I will go with snatched, it will show how annoyed he is.
> What else do you think I need to make stronger? The whole story is important, of course, but this is the very beginning so I want to make it right.


For some reason, I overlooked the fact this is the very beginning of your story. In which case, I'd concentrate on this and sharpen it til it sparkles. This is the grabber.


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## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> For some reason, I overlooked the fact this is the very beginning of your story. In which case, I'd concentrate on this and sharpen it til it sparkles. This is the grabber.


Indeed. I think it's okay...a good starting point (feel free to disagree) but I gotta work on it a lot. The fact you over looked it as the grabbing point tells me right there is needs to be punchier. I also need to pinpoint how to implement the events and how to string them through other chapters but I need a more solid understanding of how to go about it before I continue with the story. As always...a lot to think about


----------



## Taylor

KeganThompson said:


> Original
> 
> The sound of the alert pierced my ears. The vibration of my phone against the hardwood along with continuous beeping annoyed me. I picked up my phone from the breakfast bar and checked my screen. A flash flood warning. The summer storm beat against the kitchen window. Mom turned up the volume and flicked the channel to the news after silencing her alert. A suicide belonging to Pacific Coast High School in Oregon.
> “Jeez, another one?” I said leaning on the arm of the couch.
> The anchor named the eighteen-year-old senior, Michael Getz, as the fifth suicide victim of P.C.H. The suicides didn’t become country-wide news until number three, a junior named Veronica...or was her name Victoria? Number four was a guy but I couldn't recall his name or grade. Their names, grades, and causes of death muddled after a couple of weeks.
> The first suicide of P.C.H happened on May 18th, 2014. The news outlets and investigators claimed she was suffering from depression and hung herself from a pipe in the basement and her suicide set off a chain reaction.  What baffled the public was no link between the students was found and school had been out for the summer when the suicides occurred. All except for the first one. She offed herself at the end of the school year, and the others rode her coattails.
> 
> first rework.
> 
> The sound of the alert pierced my ears. The vibration of my phone knocked against the hardwood. I plucked the phone from the breakfast bar and silenced the alert. A flash flood warning. The summer storm beating against the kitchen window, mom turned the volume up and flicked the channel to the news. A student from Pacific Coast High School in Oregon committed suicide.
> "Jeez, another one?" I said, leaning on the arm of the couch.
> The anchor named the eighteen-year-old senior, Michael Getz, as the fifth suicide victim of P.C.H. The suicides didn’t become country-wide news until number three, a junior named Veronica...or was her name Victoria? I couldn't recall number four's name or grade. Their names, ages, and causes of death muddled after a couple of weeks.
> The first suicide of P.C.H happened on _May 18th, 2014._ The news outlets claimed she suffered from depression and hung herself from a pipe in the basement. Her suicide set off a chain reaction. No link was found between the students. They weren't friends, hardly classmates. More baffling, the suicides occurred during the summer. All except for the first one. She offed herself at the end of the school year, and the others rode her coattails.
> 
> It's better but I'm still struggling with some phrasing. First of all, how do you feel about "plucked" instead of "snatched"? I took out the "annoyed" part because if the sound is piercing his ears and he is plucking/snatching the phone then it's implied he's annoyed. besides, we all know those things are annoying. I took out the part where the mom turns off her alert because it isn't necessary really. the last sentence of the first paragraph still gets me.
> "A student from Pacific Coast High School in Oregon committed suicide." - I don't want to mention a number or say another because the MC says "another" and how many suicides in the next paragraph. but it comes off kinda awkward with its vagueness.
> "They weren't friends, hardly classmates. More baffling, the suicides occurred during the summer."- also kinda awkward. I'm trying to convey that they weren't friends and were all different grades etc and it's extra odd because it's during the summer. usually, kids influence each other while at school or if they are friends-but not this case.
> ...i'mma lay down for now. I had a bit of a day tbh lol any and all advice pls~


I really like your visuals.  Starting with the phone alert is catchy.  And the theme is intriguing.  A relevant topic.  

At first glance, I see a lot of sentences starting with "The".  Can you mix it up a bit?  

I prefer snatched to plucked.  But what about grabbed?  

I'm not sure I follow the logic of a chain reaction.  If no link was found between the students, how did one death trigger the next?  Perhaps that's what the story is about later.  But it might be better to hint at this linkage rather than just say it at this point.  Show not tell. For example, "No link was found between the students, but it was hard not to wonder if they were somehow related."  And again the "rode her coattails."  How do we know this?

Also when describing an action it should have a reason.  "I said leaning on the arm of the couch."  It doesn't tell you anything.  I think I know what you are going for like he buried his head in his arm...it's some type of reaction to the news, but it needs to be a bit more compelling.  

Good work...I look forward to hearing more about it.


----------



## KeganThompson

Taylor said:


> I really like your visuals.  Starting with the phone alert is catchy.  And the theme is intriguing.  A relevant topic.
> 
> At first glance, I see a lot of sentences starting with "The".  Can you mix it up a bit?
> 
> I prefer snatched to plucked.  But what about grabbed?
> 
> I'm not sure I follow the logic of a chain reaction.  If no link was found between the students, how did one death trigger the next?  Perhaps that's what the story is about later.  But it might be better to hint at this linkage rather than just say it at this point.  Show not tell. For example, "No link was found between the students, but it was hard not to wonder if they were somehow related."  And again the "rode her coattails."  How do we know this?
> 
> Also when describing an action it should have a reason.  "I said leaning on the arm of the couch."  It doesn't tell you anything.  I think I know what you are going for like he buried his head in his arm...it's some type of reaction to the news, but it needs to be a bit more compelling.
> 
> Good work...I look forward to hearing more about it.


I agree...too much the. I noticed that.

grabbed works, but snatched shows more irritation

The suicide thing is still something i am working on...its a bit of a red herring. I am trying to say its speculated one caused another suicide because it would just be coincidence otherwise..and thats a weird coincidence. they werent friends or really accquetneces...so it doesn't make sense why the students killed themselves one right after the other...I need to explain that whole section better. working out the kinks still. this is the main plot changed i referenced during our convos. but later in the chapter the MC and his friend talk about internet rumors that start. its suppose to spread throughout the country not with just suicides but with hallucinations in the beginning chapters. hopefully that helps explain what im going for better...if you have suggestions to help me make that bit clearer, im all for it.

okay i explained that SO BAD...i cant believe i completely missed that. So he grabs his phone from the breakfast bar...then walks to couch and leans on the arm. he is standing. his mom is sitting on the couch. His attitude is more or less confused then sad. I saw it in my head clear as day but my brain forgot other people cant see it lol. i'm going to focus on his moms reaction, the reader can learn about her character and it helps the pacing/ vibe.
im sure with everyones help i can turnout something decent.

Thank you I'm hoping the premise is there, its the implementation of said Ideas i need to crack down on.


----------



## Taylor

KeganThompson said:


> The suicide thing is still something i am working on...its a bit of a red herring. I am trying to say its speculated one caused another suicide because it would just be coincidence otherwise..and thats a weird coincidence. they werent friends or really accquetneces...so it doesn't make sense why the students killed themselves one right after the other...I need to explain that whole section better. working out the kinks still. this is the main plot changed i referenced during our convos. but later in the chapter the MC and his friend talk about internet rumors that start. its suppose to spread throughout the country not with just suicides but with hallucinations in the beginning chapters. hopefully that helps explain what im going for better...if you have suggestions to help me make that bit clearer, im all for it.
> 
> Thank you I'm hoping the premise is there, its the implementation of said Ideas i need to crack down on.


Oh, the premise is there!  I don't think you need to change much with respect to the speculation.  It's working it into the story, instead of just saying it as I suggested.  For example:

"The news outlets claimed she suffered from depression and hung herself from a pipe in the basement.  Later in the summer, it was speculated by a reporter that her suicide may have been a trigger that set off a chain reaction of copy-cats."

Or you could leave it out of the narrative and add it to the dialogue.  A conversation between the mom and son.

"So they haven't found any linkage?"
"That's what they said."
"But they are all from my school. They have that in common."
"Could one just be copying the other?"

So those are just drafted quickly as an example.  But give the reader the pieces one at a time and let them come to the conclusion.  And in _your _voice.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

My question is, does 'sediment rock' sound right or should I change it to 'sandstone embankment' or to avoid the repeat of 'sand', 'stone embankment'? Any thoughts on the rest is welcome:

The thought of food, fresh water, and a soft bed, urged extra effort from a body almost spent, but the more he pushed, the more his limbs protested. Scalded by leather, the sun relentless and unforgiving, he finally succumbed. He needed rest.

Up ahead, a split in the desert rose on one side and grew into an embankment of sediment rock. Sand capered across the top and spilled down just beyond a shadowed recess. It looked inviting, refreshing, a chance to place his palm and cheek against a cool, solid surface. A steer’s half-buried head forewarned of what fate awaited anyone who lingered too long, its skull askew and peeping sightless from caves of bone.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> My question is, does 'sediment rock' sound right or should I change it to 'sandstone embankment' or to avoid the repeat of 'sand', 'stone embankment'? Any thoughts on the rest is welcome:
> 
> The thought of food, fresh water, and a soft bed, urged extra effort from a body almost spent, but the more he pushed, the more his limbs protested. Scalded by leather, the sun relentless and unforgiving, he finally succumbed. He needed rest.
> 
> Up ahead, a split in the desert rose on one side and grew into an embankment of sediment rock. Sand capered across the top and spilled down just beyond a shadowed recess. It looked inviting, refreshing, a chance to place his palm and cheek against a cool, solid surface. A steer’s half-buried head forewarned of what fate awaited anyone who lingered too long, its skull askew and peeping sightless from caves of bone.


personally, I like stone embankment. I would avoid using sandstone imo...


----------



## KeganThompson

The sound of the alert pierced my ears. The vibration of my phone knocked against the hardwood.


TheMightyAz said:


> The problem with this sentence is two fold. The construction is exactly the same as the first sentence and you've relegated vibration, making 'knocked against' your verb for it's effect on the wood. *'The phone vibrated on the hardwood table.'* I'd consider amalgamating the two sentences too: *'The din of the alert pierced my ears as it vibrated on the hardwood table.'* *3/ *'Plucked' is a good word but it's a small action, almost dainty. It's a sound that's piercing the ears. I'd consider something stronger like 'snatched' which shows more exacerbation. You've mentioned breakfast bar here when you referred to it as hardwood in the previous sentence. I'd use breakfast bar in the previous sentence and remove it from the 3rd sentence. And there's no need to repeat phone:* 'The din of the alert pierced my ears as it vibrated against the breakfast bar. I snatched it up and hit mute.'*


Sorry to bring this up again but I'm just sitting here thinking about a way to reword it. Now with the sentences being separated, I did that because the alert noise and the knock against the hardwood are 2 separate sounds but coming from the same device. The piercing sound of the alert itself does not cause the knocking noise. the phone vibrates AND makes an obnoxious sound. that's why when it buzzes its extra annoying because it's on a hardwood surface.  if the alert was going off on the couch it wouldn't be as annoying. but since its blaring, AND vibrates on the hard surface it vertebrates the sound even louder. I am trying to emphasize how annoying, it is and "queue" the reader. This flash flood does represent something in the story, even tho it doesn't seem like it matters that much. that's why combining it and phrasing it something like"*he din of the alert pierced my ears as it vibrated on the hardwood table. *
wont quite work. I understand I didn't properly convey what I was trying to say, but I hope I explained myself as to know its separated when describing the phone sounds and why I dont want t to combine them like suggested


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> The sound of the alert pierced my ears. The vibration of my phone knocked against the hardwood.
> 
> Sorry to bring this up again but I'm just sitting here thinking about a way to reword it. Now with the sentences being separated, I did that because the alert noise and the knock against the hardwood are 2 separate sounds but coming from the same device. The piercing sound of the alert itself does not cause the knocking noise. the phone vibrates AND makes an obnoxious sound. that's why when it buzzes its extra annoying because it's on a hardwood surface.  if the alert was going off on the couch it wouldn't be as annoying. but since its blaring, AND vibrates on the hard surface it vertebrates the sound even louder. I am trying to emphasize how annoying, it is and "queue" the reader. This flash flood does represent something in the story, even tho it doesn't seem like it matters that much. that's why combining it and phrasing it something like"*he din of the alert pierced my ears as it vibrated on the hardwood table. *
> wont quite work. I understand I didn't properly convey what I was trying to say, but I hope I explained myself as to know its separated when describing the phone sounds and why I dont want t to combine them like suggested


You're going to have to be more specific. It's one of those things I've learned. I'm loath to give my plot away but at the end of the day, some things can't be asked without full context.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> personally, I like stone embankment. I would avoid using sandstone imo...


That's cool. I was inclined towards that myself. I might do a little more research at a later date to look up plants and rock formations, but for now that'll do.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> That's cool. I was inclined towards that myself. I might do a little more research at a later date to look up plants and rock formations, but for now that'll do.


I feel that...i dont know anything about plants or rocks.


----------



## JBF

KeganThompson said:


> The sound of the alert pierced my ears. The vibration of my phone knocked against the hardwood. I plucked the phone from the breakfast bar and silenced the alert. A flash flood warning. The summer storm beating against the kitchen window, mom turned the volume up and flicked the channel to the news. A student from Pacific Coast High School in Oregon committed suicide.



One immediate issue - you've got a lot of things happening here that don't really tie together.  The result is a misleading effect - the phone rings, but it's not readily apparent that this is important.  In the next, the storm that we already know about.  The last two are connected, but abrupt. 

The opening lines of a story are crucial.  I don't necessarily subscribe to the mindset that says you have to hook them with the first sentence (or even paragraph) but you _do _need to set the tone for what follows. Somewhere in the duration an average reader can hold their breath you need to entice them to keep going. You won't win your battle here, but you may greatly increase your odds of losing it.



KeganThompson said:


> "Jeez, another one?" I said, leaning on the arm of the couch.



Item two: there's an action here that doesn't carry its weight.  For now the short version of a long thread we had not too long ago, let's say that actions either extraneous to painting the picture or moving the narrative ball are probably best cut.  _Full disclosure: I'm an overly wordy type who objects to reader suggestions that I reel it in when painting my Happy Little Trees.  _Here, leaning on the arm of the couch isn't really rooted yet - is our Narrator/MC tired from a long day?  Just bumming on the weekend? 

This is less of a concern later on - once we have our feet you can back it off a little.  For now, we're spitting distance from the starting line and everything needs to build the world or suggest movement of the plot. 



KeganThompson said:


> The anchor named the eighteen-year-old senior, Michael Getz, as the fifth suicide victim of P.C.H. The suicides didn’t become country-wide news until number three, a junior named Veronica...or was her name Victoria? I couldn't recall number four's name or grade. Their names, ages, and causes of death muddled after a couple of weeks.



First-person POV is one of the few places you can get away with stating details like this.  It's not bad, but there may be a way to get this running a little smoother.  More on that later.



KeganThompson said:


> The first suicide of P.C.H happened on _May 18th, 2014._ The news outlets claimed she suffered from depression and hung herself from a pipe in the basement. Her suicide set off a chain reaction. No link was found between the students. They weren't friends, hardly classmates. More baffling, the suicides occurred during the summer. All except for the first one. She offed herself at the end of the school year, and the others rode her coattails.



Important info.  The issue?  This sounds like the N/MC is sitting across the table explaining this to us.  Intros are hazardous enough without dropping immediately into exposition. 




KeganThompson said:


> It's better but I'm still struggling with some phrasing. First of all, how do you feel about "plucked" instead of "snatched"?



Strictly preference from me.  I'd go with 'picked up'.  But in fairness, my style tends towards simpler wording with gross abuse of run-ons and dubious punctuation. 



KeganThompson said:


> I'm trying to convey that they weren't friends and were all different grades etc and it's extra odd because it's during the summer. usually, kids influence each other while at school or if they are friends-but not this case.



That advice I wrote upstream?  I'm going to tell you how and why you might want to ignore that.  As a rule I'd try to pick whether you'd like to open with exposition or narrative.  Once you've decided, stick with that until you've completed the scene.  Though opinions will vary, I wouldn't be averse to throwing a brief paragraph/short chapter in as a lead-in to the main story as relayed to us by the N/MC

Something like:

_The summer of 2014  started bad.  A suicide at Pacific Coast High School - hanged herself in the basement in May, right before the break. The talking heads on the news said it was depression, but that didn't account for the next, or the one after that, or the one after that.  Every week another story - another student dead by their own hand in a string that stayed on the news all season, sandwiched between heat advisories and the surf report.

They didn't know each other.  _

Of course, that's all opinion.  Run with what works, scrap the rest.


----------



## JBF

TheMightyAz said:


> My question is, does 'sediment rock' sound right or should I change it to 'sandstone embankment' or to avoid the repeat of 'sand', 'stone embankment'? Any thoughts on the rest is welcome:
> 
> The thought of food, fresh water, and a soft bed, urged extra effort from a body almost spent, but the more he pushed, the more his limbs protested. Scalded by leather, the sun relentless and unforgiving, he finally succumbed. He needed rest.
> 
> Up ahead, a split in the desert rose on one side and grew into an embankment of sediment rock. Sand capered across the top and spilled down just beyond a shadowed recess. It looked inviting, refreshing, a chance to place his palm and cheek against a cool, solid surface. A steer’s half-buried head forewarned of what fate awaited anyone who lingered too long, its skull askew and peeping sightless from caves of bone.



I'd go with sandstone.  Incidentally, a lot of what you find in deserts (especially those similar to the American Southwest) aren't sand.  Most are dirt in varying degrees of coarseness, usually grown over with low-lying scrub plants. Sand isn't entirely absent, of course.  Usually it shows up in the wild in bands or relatively concentrated geographic areas, the White Sands of New Mexico being one example.  You also find it predominantly in river bottoms. 

Broad areas of actual granular surface cover (like the Sahara) aren't terribly common. 

Long way around the short point of saying you've got options if the term 'sand' looks to be over-represented, I suppose. 

Anyway...I like where this is headed.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

JBF said:


> I'd go with sandstone.  Incidentally, a lot of what you find in deserts (especially those similar to the American Southwest) aren't sand.  Most are dirt in varying degrees of coarseness, usually grown over with low-lying scrub plants. Sand isn't entirely absent, of course.  Usually it shows up in the wild in bands or relatively concentrated geographic areas, the White Sands of New Mexico being one example.  You also find it predominantly in river bottoms.
> 
> Broad areas of actual granular surface cover (like the Sahara) aren't terribly common.
> 
> Long way around the short point of saying you've got options if the term 'sand' looks to be over-represented, I suppose.
> 
> Anyway...I like where this is headed.


It was important to me for the sand to be deep and difficult to traverse. That's why I went for a Sahara like desert. Deep sands, relentless heat. Yarrod is fatalistic, tired and deep down longs to die, but he's always pressed on. I needed to batter him hard in the opener and remove all hope to contrast with the new hope of the handkerchief and the whispered 'Isabel' (or whatever I decide to call the mystery woman). I'm assuming some deserts have both environments. At least I hope so anyway. That's why I felt it ok to bring in an embankment of rock.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> The sound of the alert pierced my ears. The vibration of my phone knocked against the hardwood.
> 
> Sorry to bring this up again but I'm just sitting here thinking about a way to reword it. Now with the sentences being separated, I did that because the alert noise and the knock against the hardwood are 2 separate sounds but coming from the same device. The piercing sound of the alert itself does not cause the knocking noise. the phone vibrates AND makes an obnoxious sound. that's why when it buzzes its extra annoying because it's on a hardwood surface.  if the alert was going off on the couch it wouldn't be as annoying. but since its blaring, AND vibrates on the hard surface it vertebrates the sound even louder. I am trying to emphasize how annoying, it is and "queue" the reader. This flash flood does represent something in the story, even tho it doesn't seem like it matters that much. that's why combining it and phrasing it something like"*he din of the alert pierced my ears as it vibrated on the hardwood table. *
> wont quite work. I understand I didn't properly convey what I was trying to say, but I hope I explained myself as to know its separated when describing the phone sounds and why I dont want t to combine them like suggested


I've been considering this. It kept me awake.  OK ... so I think I've got an idea why it's important for the story that the focus on the phone needs to be strong. If it's what I think it is, I'd strongly advise against trying to emphasise ONE alert. No matter how well you pull that off, it will only ever look like an overreaction. It would be better to have the repetition of the alert be the main 'clue' ... Three should do it and in all cases it should be exactly the same alert. First one on the hardwood top, second one while it's in his hands and the third after he'd put it in his pocket, preferably during a conversation with his mother. Make it feel an intrusion rather than simply an irritation. That of course depends on if I'm close to the target.


----------



## Matchu

It doesn’t pierce your ears tho’ - I would try to write that observation in a more interesting way…it is c..c…cliche (flourish in my voice here, umm and silent D)


----------



## Riptide

TheMightyAz said:


> My question is, does 'sediment rock' sound right or should I change it to 'sandstone embankment' or to avoid the repeat of 'sand', 'stone embankment'? Any thoughts on the rest is welcome:
> 
> The thought of food, fresh water, and a soft bed, urged extra effort from a body almost spent, but the more he pushed, the more his limbs protested. Scalded by leather, the sun relentless and unforgiving, he finally succumbed. He needed rest.
> 
> Up ahead, a split in the desert rose on one side and grew into an embankment of sediment rock. Sand capered across the top and spilled down just beyond a shadowed recess. It looked inviting, refreshing, a chance to place his palm and cheek against a cool, solid surface. A steer’s half-buried head forewarned of what fate awaited anyone who lingered too long, its skull askew and peeping sightless from caves of bone.


For sure use 'stone embankment' or 'embankment of sediment rock' Personally, what image do you want? Is it more of a sediment that means this desert had some water before? Or do you want some gritty gray stone? You already give us the image of 'sand' in the next line which is why you dont need 'sandstone embankment' imo

That ;ast line... the 'half-buried head' followed by 'its skull skew and peeping sightless from caves of bones' is almost... saying the same thing. I'd combine it: A steer's half-buried skull forewarned of what fate awaited anyone who lingered too long, peeping sightless from caves of bones. -- or something, something


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

How common and well known is the term 'hammer' and would most people understand Sorrow was a gun from this description? I could expand this easily but there's something about this simple indication of what Sorrow is, I like a lot. Is there a slight verb/subject confusion there too? Perhaps if I remove the last comma, that clears it up?

From his gold-inlay waistcoat pocket, he eased a red handkerchief and slid it across his brow. It was an inconsequential piece of material, and yet he and it could never part. He tucked it back, deep into the pocket, his thumb still touching a beat or two longer, before he slipped it free and dropped it to Sorrow’s hammer.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Riptide said:


> For sure use 'stone embankment' or 'embankment of sediment rock' Personally, what image do you want? Is it more of a sediment that means this desert had some water before? Or do you want some gritty gray stone? You already give us the image of 'sand' in the next line which is why you dont need 'sandstone embankment' imo
> 
> That ;ast line... the 'half-buried head' followed by 'its skull skew and peeping sightless from caves of bones' is almost... saying the same thing. I'd combine it: A steer's half-buried skull forewarned of what fate awaited anyone who lingered too long, peeping sightless from caves of bones. -- or something, something


Sorry, just noticed this. I like that contraction. I think I'll change it in line with this. CHEERS!


----------



## KeganThompson

JBF said:


> One immediate issue - you've got a lot of things happening here that don't really tie together.  The result is a misleading effect - the phone rings, but it's not readily apparent that this is important.  In the next, the storm that we already know about.  The last two are connected, but abrupt.
> 
> The opening lines of a story are crucial.  I don't necessarily subscribe to the mindset that says you have to hook them with the first sentence (or even paragraph) but you _do _need to set the tone for what follows. Somewhere in the duration an average reader can hold their breath you need to entice them to keep going. You won't win your battle here, but you may greatly increase your odds of losing it.
> 
> 
> 
> Item two: there's an action here that doesn't carry its weight.  For now the short version of a long thread we had not too long ago, let's say that actions either extraneous to painting the picture or moving the narrative ball are probably best cut.  _Full disclosure: I'm an overly wordy type who objects to reader suggestions that I reel it in when painting my Happy Little Trees.  _Here, leaning on the arm of the couch isn't really rooted yet - is our Narrator/MC tired from a long day?  Just bumming on the weekend?
> 
> This is less of a concern later on - once we have our feet you can back it off a little.  For now, we're spitting distance from the starting line and everything needs to build the world or suggest movement of the plot.
> 
> 
> 
> First-person POV is one of the few places you can get away with stating details like this.  It's not bad, but there may be a way to get this running a little smoother.  More on that later.
> 
> 
> 
> Important info.  The issue?  This sounds like the N/MC is sitting across the table explaining this to us.  Intros are hazardous enough without dropping immediately into exposition.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Strictly preference from me.  I'd go with 'picked up'.  But in fairness, my style tends towards simpler wording with gross abuse of run-ons and dubious punctuation.
> 
> 
> 
> That advice I wrote upstream?  I'm going to tell you how and why you might want to ignore that.  As a rule I'd try to pick whether you'd like to open with exposition or narrative.  Once you've decided, stick with that until you've completed the scene.  Though opinions will vary, I wouldn't be averse to throwing a brief paragraph/short chapter in as a lead-in to the main story as relayed to us by the N/MC
> 
> Something like:
> 
> _The summer of 2014  started bad.  A suicide at Pacific Coast High School - hanged herself in the basement in May, right before the break. The talking heads on the news said it was depression, but that didn't account for the next, or the one after that, or the one after that.  Every week another story - another student dead by their own hand in a string that stayed on the news all season, sandwiched between heat advisories and the surf report.
> 
> They didn't know each other.  _
> 
> Of course, that's all opinion.  Run with what works, scrap the rest.


I was reworking it last night. the storm/alert represents something. I see in my head a phone going off and vibrating and the MC picking it up.  he walks back over to the couch but instead of sitting down, he is leaning on the arm.
I' m really good at jumping from one thing to another. I think it has something to do with my attention span. Maybe not but as a young adult, my brain has been affected by the fast pace of the internet/ media. Its crazy, I watch my friend's kids watch something and it blows my mind at how fast-paced it is. It hurt my brain.  So I can only imagine what they're gonna be like. 
My scenes are fast-paced but the pacing of the story itself is slow. cus of all the fluff I wrote Haha.
So do you think I can make the alert thing and suicides flow better? Its not on here but....it moves to something ELSE right after the news. so yeah...I need to slow down and be more descriptive. His phone vibrates again but its his friend. Idk if that helps with anything. LOL I'm reworking the whole IDEA, i originally had along with the pacing. I'd say its almost a completely different story but a the same time the core is still the same.
I was thinking of cutting the details of the first girl's death and use it in a convo later. it will be less descriptive-"telling us at a table"- and I can add info later to the reader.
I totally agree I need to slow down and quit scene hoping. Too many ideas, and ones that don't relate to another will throw off the reader if its not eased in
I can see myself doing "zero drafting" in my future.  smack main Ideas on the page, rework them, and then fill in details. That could be a better way of doing it for me. I don't wanna word vomit anymore .


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> I've been considering this. It kept me awake.  OK ... so I think I've got an idea why it's important for the story that the focus on the phone needs to be strong. If it's what I think it is, I'd strongly advise against trying to emphasise ONE alert. No matter how well you pull that off, it will only ever look like an overreaction. It would be better to have the repetition of the alert be the main 'clue' ... Three should do it and in all cases it should be exactly the same alert. First one on the hardwood top, second one while it's in his hands and the third after he'd put it in his pocket, preferably during a conversation with his mother. Make it feel an intrusion rather than simply an irritation. That of course depends on if I'm close to the target.


Glad I'm making you think hahaha. its part of the story I'm trying to write. i want the reader to read it and think about things. Now how to do that and properly?- _shrug_ (I think I'm trying to fit pants that are too big for me...)
I may have misled you, it's not necessarily the alert that is the symbol, its the storm. Now that I'm thinking about it....the alert might be overdone. I do like the number 3 though and it being used in the beginning. Using flash flood warnings, are more of a continuous blaring but you know what...I might just listen to one and figure out how I wanna go about it. I could add "the 3" in there. The opening is taking from the old draft/ old idea. So it may not work (the alert) But I liked the visual and I liked what I could use it for when implementing the storm. its funny because I was thinking about numbers and was thinking about the number 3 and how I might use that later on...
I was working on it last night and added a bit more emphasis/ detail on the storm.
I might start with something more subtle than "the alert pierced my ears." maybe a small sentence of him doing something before it went off? I wanted the beginning to catch your attention but its not descriptive enough to know wtf is going on 
I might use a different word than pierced...it may be too strong.


----------



## JBF

KeganThompson said:


> I was reworking it last night. the storm/alert represents something. I see in my head a phone going off and vibrating and the MC picking it up.  he walks back over to the couch but instead of sitting down, he is leaning on the arm.



Probably nitpicking on my part.  



KeganThompson said:


> I' m really good at jumping from one thing to another. I think it has something to do with my attention span. Maybe not but as a young adult, my brain has been affected by the fast pace of the internet/ media. Its crazy, I watch my friend's kids watch something and it blows my mind at how fast-paced it is. It hurt my brain.  So I can only imagine what they're gonna be like.
> My scenes are fast-paced but the pacing of the story itself is slow. cus of all the fluff I wrote Haha.



Well...there's fluff and then there's fluff.  I wouldn't say what you have here is unneeded for the story, though it might benefit from a rearranging.  



KeganThompson said:


> So do you think I can make the alert thing and suicides flow better? Its not on here but....it moves to something ELSE right after the news. so yeah...I need to slow down and be more descriptive. His phone vibrates again but its his friend. Idk if that helps with anything. LOL I'm reworking the whole IDEA, i originally had along with the pacing. I'd say its almost a completely different story but a the same time the core is still the same.



I doubt most people wind up writing the story that got them started.  You'd be in good company on that count.  As the execution goes, I'm still of a mind that the suicide aspect should be nearer front and center in the first few lines.  Suicides (especially in batches) have a way of piquing interest and posing questions.  

Having the phone ring for a false alarm also introduces questions, but those tend to be of the wrong sort - stuff like _Is the writer screwing with me_ and _Are we going to watch them organize the refrigerator later.  _Me, I'd read that and assume you were going for an accurate representation of daily life.  I suspect most would balk when your story involves a rash of dead school kids but the focus is on, say, sorting junk mail or mowing the lawn.  

Put it this way - if the marquee outside tells us that tonight's guest is an astronaut who's going to tell us what it was like to walk on Mars, we're probably going to be irate if said astronaut talks for six hours about their favorite opera.  Might be a good story all the same - just not what people paid for or what brought them in.  

You know why you're writing _this _particular story. Sell it hard.



KeganThompson said:


> I was thinking of cutting the details of the first girl's death and use it in a convo later. it will be less descriptive-"telling us at a table"- and I can add info later to the reader.
> I totally agree I need to slow down and quit scene hoping. Too many ideas, and ones that don't relate to another will throw off the reader if its not eased in
> I can see myself doing "zero drafting" in my future.  smack main Ideas on the page, rework them, and then fill in details. That could be a better way of doing it for me. I don't wanna word vomit anymore .



At this point I'd say you would do better to focus on what makes the story go.  

Remember the six points?  I'm not going to tell you that you have to get all that in the first line/page/paragraph, but the benefit of that framework comes from giving readers something to grab on.  Right now we don't know much about the character, so we can't see their problems.  They don't seem to have any motivation or circumstance.  There is the elephant in the room with the suicides, though for the time being these are external to you players and they don't evince any interest in getting involved.  

First, root the audience.  _Then _dazzle us with your brilliance.


----------



## KeganThompson

*Having the phone ring for a false alarm also introduces questions, but those tend to be of the wrong sort - stuff like Is the writer screwing with me and Are we going to watch them organize the refrigerator later. Me, I'd read that and assume you were going for an accurate representation of daily life. I suspect most would balk when your story involves a rash of dead school kids but the focus is on, say, sorting junk mail or mowing the lawn.*

his phone going buzzing isnt suppose to be a false alarm, its suppose help transition into the other topic I wrote about him going over to his friends house.  It is suppose to be a rep of daily life but it has a hidden meaning. Its hard to explain what I'm trying to do without giving the full context...
luckily no rash of dead school kids is happening just speculation and mass hysteria spreading-and hallucinations. 

* I'm still of a mind that the suicide aspect should be nearer front and center in the first few lines. Suicides (especially in batches) have a way of piquing interest and posing questions.*

Should I flip it? news first then alert? and work it that way?

*Remember the six points? I'm not going to tell you that you have to get all that in the first line/page/paragraph, but the benefit of that framework comes from giving readers something to grab on. Right now we don't know much about the character, so we can't see their problems. They don't seem to have any motivation or circumstance. There is the elephant in the room with the suicides, though for the time being these are external to you players and they don't evince any interest in getting involved.*

I do need to work on his motivations, but to be fair...this is only 3 paragraphs of the first chapter so...idk what i'm suppose to regarding laying out all the characters problems in first 3 paragraphs lol

*First, root the audience. Then dazzle us with your brilliance*

who I said I had brilliance to dazzle? lol


----------



## JBF

KeganThompson said:


> It is suppose to be a rep of daily life but it has a hidden meaning. Its hard to explain what I'm trying to do without giving the full context...
> luckily no rash of dead school kids is happening just speculation and mass hysteria spreading-and hallucinations.



I got you.  If I misread the intent, disregard.  



KeganThompson said:


> * I'm still of a mind that the suicide aspect should be nearer front and center in the first few lines. Suicides (especially in batches) have a way of piquing interest and posing questions.*
> 
> Should I flip it? news first then alert? and work it that way?



Worth a shot.  Sometimes upending things works, sometimes not, but it doesn't cost anything to try.  



KeganThompson said:


> I do need to work on his motivations, but to be fair...this is only 3 paragraphs of the first chapter so...idk what i'm suppose to regarding laying out all the characters problems in first 3 paragraphs lol



Fair point.  

And again, some of this could be misreading on my part.  If so, ignore it.  



KeganThompson said:


> who I said I had brilliance to dazzle? lol



I hear that baffling can sometimes be effective....


----------



## KeganThompson

JBF said:


> I got you.  If I misread the intent, disregard.
> 
> 
> 
> Worth a shot.  Sometimes upending things works, sometimes not, but it doesn't cost anything to try.
> 
> 
> 
> Fair point.
> 
> And again, some of this could be misreading on my part.  If so, ignore it.
> 
> 
> 
> I hear that baffling can sometimes be effective....


yeah, its hard to get a full picture of what I'm tryna do with 3 paragraphs. There is a lot of missing context. maybe we need a story thread... where we can post main ideas, summary, the pacing of a story? dramatize vs narrate, show vs tell etc?
 I got plenty of ideas....I'm a dumpster full of 'em. 
I cant blame you for being like ???? when reading 3 paragraphs. I don't even know exactly what I'm doing with my story. cant blame you for not knowing either after an opening snippet.  
I just want it to be good...I just don't know if I have the ability for it yet.


----------



## JBF

KeganThompson said:


> I don't even know exactly what I'm doing....



Your club card is in the mail.


----------



## KeganThompson

JBF said:


> Your club card is in the mail.


are you a pantser? lol


----------



## JBF

KeganThompson said:


> are you a pantser? lol



Little column A, little column B.  I usually start out with the high points of a story mapped out and just kind of fill the gaps on the fly.  Copious editing with a chainsaw takes the worst of the rough edges off.


----------



## KeganThompson

JBF said:


> Little column A, little column B.  I usually start out with the high points of a story mapped out and just kind of fill the gaps on the fly.  Copious editing with a chainsaw takes the worst of the rough edges off.


I was thinking about doing something like "zero drafting" in the future....
I got a bunch of ideas but idk of they are too much for one story if I have the ability to make it work. There is just so many possibilities...I tend to over think things a lot. Do you ever have "this could happen. Or this...but then I'd need to fix this and then-" cuz that's me. Dumpster fire with not clear enough vision. This is y I can't write short stories...even they would be long


----------



## JBF

KeganThompson said:


> I got a bunch of ideas but idk of they are too much for one story if I have the ability to make it work. There is just so many possibilities...I tend to over think things a lot. Do you ever have "this could happen. Or this...but then I'd need to fix this and then-" cuz that's me. Dumpster fire with not clear enough vision. This is y I can't write short stories...even they would be long



You'd be surprised how much you can work into one story.  

As shorts go...I don't worry about it.  Most of mine are too long to be shorts, too short for novellas.  A couple of years back I learned to roll with it.  Didn't figure anybody would be willing to sit through one, but I've got a few here on WF (and elsewhere) who don't seem to mind.  

I figure if you have to pick between writing ten _decent _pages or fifteen _good _ones you always follow the quality, even if it breaks the rules or the accepted wisdom.  Rules weren't always the rules.  Accepted wisdom had to be accepted at some point.  Somewhere prior to that point was somebody doing something that others said would never work. 

Powered flight?  A four-minute mile?  The million-word novel?  Everything's impossible until some nutcase pulls it off.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

I want to nail this first sentence and first paragraph. The idea is Yarrod doesn't feel in control and that events 'turn up'. It's as if he's standing still and everything comes to him. No matter what he does, fate turns the world and as a point in time, he's forced to engage. This is what I have so far. I've now likened him to a compass needle. 'northward' in this sense is symbolic and I didn't want it to seem as if he's literally heading north but rather towards the cold. I still haven't cracked it. I'm thereabouts but haven't quite nailed it yet. I hate the wording of that opening sentence.

edit: Strike this, it's horrible. I need a much better first sentence. for now I've gone back to this, which still annoys me:

Yarrod suspected the world turned beneath _him_, fortune at the whim of a cruel hand.

 Yarrod was a compass needle, always pointing northward, while a cruel hand turned the earth beneath him. He had a similar view of time, never sure when he began, only that he existed. Pain gave him some comfort, some substance. He hungered and thirsted, suffered and weakened, just like the next man. There the similarity ended. No womb birthed him and no grave waited. Outside of time, he watched the world spin, and stole moments to remind himself he was no ghost.


----------



## JBF

Have you considered:



TheMightyAz said:


> _Pain gave him some comfort, some substance. He hungered and thirsted, suffered and weakened, just like the next man. There the similarity ended. No womb birthed him and no grave waited. Outside of time, he watched the world spin, and stole moments to remind himself he was no ghost. _
> 
> _Yarrod was a compass needle, always pointing northward while a cruel hand turned the earth beneath him. He held a similar view of time, never sure when he began, only that he was. _



I


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

JBF said:


> Have you considered:
> 
> 
> 
> I


Yes, I've considered starting on that line. I may just do that in the end. I've already cut the first line and rejigged a bit without  it:

Yarrod wasn’t sure where or when he began; only that he existed. Pain gave him some comfort, some substance. He hungered and thirsted, suffered and weakened, just like the next man. There the similarity ended. No womb birthed him and no grave waited. Outside of time, he watched the world spin, and stole moments to remind himself he was no ghost.


----------



## KeganThompson

Here are 3 new sentences I wrote. this all I got atm.
roast me

My mom flicked through the channels searching for decent entertainment. She scoffed as a girl in a skimpy outfit paraded around on screen before switching to the news. I hovered the rim of the Coke can to hide my smile before taking a sip.

should there be a comma between channels and searching?


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Here are 3 new sentences I wrote. this all I got atm.
> roast me
> 
> My mom flicked through the channels searching for decent entertainment. She scoffed as a girl in a skimpy outfit paraded around on screen before switching to the news. I hovered the rim of the Coke can to hide my smile before taking a sip.
> 
> should there be a comma between channels and searching?


I would leave it as it is. Take a look at the subject/verb confusion in that second sentence. In that sentence, it's the girl in the skimpy outfit that changes the channel. I like that third sentence a lot. It's a nice observation. All in all though, this is much better


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> I would leave it as it is. Take a look at the subject/verb confusion in that second sentence. In that sentence, it's the girl in the skimpy outfit that changes the channel. I like that third sentence a lot. It's a nice observation. All in all though, this is much better.


Yeah it's an awkward sentence. I messed with it a few times. It's still not right
 I am trying to convey she was flicking through the channels but had them on long enough to get a glimpse of what was playing. She displayed her dislike while it showed him doing the opposite lol.
Maybe write something like
She scoffed as a girl in a skimpy outfit paraded around on screen. She switched to it the news.  Or _quickly_ switched to the news
Just break it down in two sentences?


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Yeah it's an awkward sentence. I messed with it a few times. It's still not right
> I am trying to convey she was flicking through the channels but had them on long enough to get a glimpse of what was playing. She displayed her dislike while it showed him doing the opposite lol.
> Maybe write something like
> She scoffed as a girl in a skimpy outfit paraded around on screen. She switched to it the news.  Or _quickly_ switched to the news
> Just break it down in two sentences?


I'd make it two sentences, yeah. How is his mother feeling at that moment? She's clearly not thinking only of the news. If I were going to approach this, I'd have a little list of channels she passes through before eventually hitting the news channel. At that point, the information shown relates to the incidents in the story.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> I'd make it two sentences, yeah. How is his mother feeling at that moment? She's clearly not thinking only of the news. If I were going to approach this, I'd have a little list of channels she passes through before eventually hitting the news channel. At that point, the information shown relates to the incidents in the story.


They're just bored and seeing what's on tv 
Ah yeah saying she quickly switched to the news made it seem like she was looking for it. I was trying to imply that was the next channel she turned it to and she stayed there. Ah yes cable. Lol been awhile for me. I would like to mention at some point this takes place in the year 2014-15. Maybe? It's when I was in school. Drugging up old memories haha


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> They're just bored and seeing what's on tv
> Ah yeah saying she quickly switched to the news made it seem like she was looking for it. I was trying to imply that was the next channel she turned it to and she stayed there. Ah yes cable. Lol been awhile for me. I would like to mention at some point this takes place in the year 2014-15. Maybe? It's when I was in school. Drugging up old memories haha


Mom flicked through the TV channels. A skimpily dressed girl spoke of world peace; a weather man pointed to a chart and grinned with pearly teeth; a fireman clambered out of a well with a dishevelled puppy, and then she fell upon the news. 

Something like that.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> Mom flicked through the TV channels. A skimpily dressed girl spoke of world peace; a weather man pointed to a chart and grinned with pearly teeth; a fireman clambered out of a well with a dishevelled puppy, and then she fell upon the news.
> 
> Something like that.


ok, yeah. one thing I noticed with my writing is that I am not very specific in certain descriptions,-like the channels-cuz frankly, im like who cares, I don't lol but it makes the writing more concrete and has more meat to grab onto even if its small things like specifying different channels.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> ok, yeah. one thing I noticed with my writing is that I am not very specific in certain descriptions,-like the channels-cuz frankly, im like who cares, I don't lol but it makes the writing more concrete and has more meat to grab onto even if its small things like specifying different channels.


Being specific is important. You could expand on what I've written above and add more detail and really go for it, but I focused on 'cliches' in order to portray the banality of TV. It's those little details that set the scene and connect the reader. Talking world peace, grinning with over-white teeth, rescuing a stray from a well etc. Everyone has seen those at some point. Because she's 'flicking between channels' it's important to make sure you don't add in specifics that could make what she's passing through interesting, although I would likely have her pause a little while on the puppy being rescued. She's a nurse and likely would care.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> Being specific is important. You could expand on what I've written above and add more detail and really go for it, but I focused on 'cliches' in order to portray the banality of TV. It's those little details that set the scene and connect the reader. Talking world peace, grinning with over-white teeth, rescuing a stray from a well etc. Everyone has seen those at some point. Because she's 'flicking between channels' it's important to make sure you don't add in specifics that could make what she's passing through interesting, although I would likely have her pause a little while on the puppy being rescued. She's a nurse and likely would care.


I use to watch a lot of reruns with my mom so I can see mentioning that but she flicks through it cuz they have already seen that episode of friends 100 times  idk if I should mention friends or Seinfeld in particular (name) I know friends I've seen a lot. She could ignore the sports channel. He used to watch basketball with his dad but now his parents are separated so he hasn't been watching it. Maybe mention that as a little background?


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> I use to watch a lot of reruns with my mom so I can see mentioning that but she flicks through it cuz they have already seen that episode of friends 100 times  idk if I should mention friends or Seinfeld in particular (name) I know friends I've seen a lot. She could ignore the sports channel. He used to watch basketball with his dad but now his parents are separated so he hasn't been watching it. Maybe mention that as a little background?


It's up to you. Either you want her flicking through the channels for the sake of it and happening upon the news, or you dig a bit deeper and have what she takes a quick look at matter to some extent. Personally, I don't think it would add much to linger and get too descriptive. The main point is getting to the news.


----------



## Phil Istine

_*When Yarrod walked, the Earth turned beneath him: a mouse on a wheel.*_

Although the image isn't pure, as the mouse is actually _inside_ the wheel's rim, it does present some version of the idea of powerlessness. However, it may be too cliched.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Phil Istine said:


> _*When Yarrod walked, the Earth turned beneath him: a mouse on a wheel.*_
> 
> Although the image isn't pure, as the mouse is actually _inside_ the wheel's rim, it does present some version of the idea of powerlessness. However, it may be too cliched.


Naaa, man, that just doesn't have the right gravitas. He's a soul doomed to repeat the same cycle. Without pain and purpose, he would be nothing more than a ghost. His only purpose is to hunt and kill, hunt and kill, hunt and kill. The world turns about him and there's no escaping his past, present or future. He longs to die but cannot. He longs to live but cannot.

He has his crow, his gun, the red handkerchief and his horse. That's all he has ever been and all he thinks he's ever going to be. But he's lived many lives and gone through many cycles.


----------



## Smith

Vibrant green stems, made as tall as trees by their ancientness, wavered in a sea of wet and oppressive heat. Beads of condensation slid down their lengths, and dripped from the tips of their blades to feed the soft rich earth. The flies and gnats swimming in the humidity had disappeared. The cacophonous chattering of unseen insects had ceased. All around him now the towering grass rustled, but not by any wind. In the gaps in the grass which grew ever smaller, ever darker the further from Remy's eye, something colossal circled him.

"This air... it feels like breathing in water, doesn't it?" The whisper came from his left, and yet started in his mind. Remy stood still. The sweat on his brow ran cold. Silence.

"It feels like drowning without _releasssse_," it hissed again, this time in front of him, voice rising to a crescendo as its scaly head and neck reared into the sky, eclipsing the sun. The glint in the snake's hazel eyes fixed Remy in place. His feet refused to turn away.

"Who are you, wanderer? _Sssspeak_. And do not lie, for I only ask what I already know." The snake smiled, bearing its human-sized fangs.

"My name- my name is Remy," he replied, barely able to catch his breath. He swallowed.

"That is the name you were given. But I have been called many names, and not all of them fitting. Have you still no memory of what you have forgotten?"

"I can only remember that I have forgotten," he answered.

---

Hope that isn't too long for the purposes of this thread.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Smith said:


> *1/* Vibrant green stems, made as tall as trees by their ancientness, wavered in a sea of wet and oppressive heat.* 2/* Beads of condensation slid down their lengths, and dripped from the tips of their blades to feed the soft rich earth. *3/* The flies and gnats swimming in the humidity had disappeared. *4/* The cacophonous chattering of unseen insects had ceased. All around him now the towering grass rustled, but not by any wind. *5/* In the gaps in the grass which grew ever smaller, ever darker the further from Remy's eye, something colossal circled him.



*1/ *'made as tall as trees by their ancientness' is a tad awkward and we end on a less than resolute word. If you directly attribute their age to the trees, it sounds much better: *'Vibrant green stems, as tall as ancient trees, wavered in a sea of wet and oppressive heat.' 2/ *'slid down their lengths' is a complete journey for the beads from top to bottom, so making the progress of those beads contradict dripping from their blades. Do you see? Whilst you've used 'and' there, showing a simultaneous action, the journey has already been read and absorbed by the reader. I would also consider losing 'beads'. Not that it's wrong. It's just so associated with faces, it feels wrong.* 'Condensation trickled down, and dripped from tips of blades to feed the soft, rich earth.' *I'd rejig these two sentences slightly in order to allow for 'stems' to appear in the second sentence: *'Vibrant green plants, as tall as ancient trees, wavered in a sea of wet and oppressive heat. Condensation trickled down their stems, and dripped from tips of blades to feed the soft, rich earth.' 3/ *You tell us that flies and gnats are swimming in the humidity but then add they've disappeared. As the reader reads, they're there but then they're not. You'll have to rethink this. *'Flies and gnats had long gone'*, springs to mind, although that's hardly perfect. *4/* 'cacophonous chattering'. Cacophonous is one of those words that needs careful consideration and if placed incorrectly can come across as pretentious or a 'thesaurus moment.' Here is actually weakens the sentence because 'chattering' is an interesting way of describing the sound.* 'The chattering of unseen insects had ceased.' *I'd consider joining the two sentences: *'Flies and gnats had long gone, and the chattering of unseen insects ceased.'* *5/* 'in the/in the/which' just make this sentence stumble. 'further from Remy's eyes' removes the reader from the story and makes them second hand participants. The use of colossal removes any chance of upping the ante later on.* 'Gaps in the grass grew ever tighter, ever darker, and something circled Remy.' *If he can't see it, he can't know what size it is. In order to point out it's big and powerful, you could mention the sounds related to something bulky pushing its way through the undergrowth. If he does already know what it is, use 'huge' or 'large' but save the superlatives for the very last chapter or page. They leave you no where to go when you want to crank it up. See it as putting your headphones on 10 from the start and then realising you'd like it louder. 



Smith said:


> "This air*[space]*... it feels like breathing in water, doesn't it?" The whisper came from his left, and yet started in his mind. He stopped. The sweat on his brow ran cold. Silence.
> 
> "It feels like drowning without _releasssse_," it hissed again, this time in front of him, voice rising to a crescendo as its scaly head and neck reared into the sky, eclipsing the sun. The glint in the snake's hazel eyes fixed Remy in place. His feet refused to turn away.
> 
> "Who are you, wanderer? _Sssspeak_. And do not lie, for I only ask what I already know." The snake smiled, bearing its human-sized fangs.



When you say 'human sized' fangs, I'm assuming you mean they were the size of humans and not the size of fangs you'd expect to find in a human's mouth. I'd think of a better comparison there. 



Smith said:


> "My name- my name is Remy," he replied, barely able to catch his breath. He swallowed.
> 
> "That is the name you were given. Have you still no memory of what you have forgotten?"
> out
> "I can only remember that I have forgotten," he answered.



How do you see Remy? Is he formal? The tone of the snake is formal and therefore authoritative/threatening. But what about Remy? Perhaps the contracted version of 'I have' and other words would suit him better. *'I can only remember I've forgotten'.* Normally 'that' should be removed as often as possible from your writing, but it's OK in dialogue. BUT, it adds that formality. By removing it, Remy is more your average Joe. 



Smith said:


> ---
> 
> Hope that isn't too long for the purposes of this thread.



It's only a short dialogue exchange but it's well done. You might think I don't like it because of all the red stuff! Nope, I think it's great but needs trimming and a little more care. That's all. It's there though. There is no doubt. Good stuff. 

It's not too long at all. I meant three paragraphs loosely. Three chunky paragraphs or several slight paragraphs are about the same length


----------



## KeganThompson

aight, this is my rework so far...I am still sorting out how I want to present the suicide thing. I cut a lot of info out because I didn't want him to explain everything. I was wanting him to have interactions with his (future) friends at his school, or at least split it up in this chapter-
I am been thinking bout my idea and the original concept before I went off the wall with ideas lol. Luckily I had some ideas hit me that will help tie in a theme I was originally going for. I still have a lot to think about buuut overall I feel like I'm finally heading in the right direction with a cleaner idea/concept.

My mom flicked through the channels searching for decent entertainment. She paused on ESPN and scoffed while girls in skimpy outfits paraded around on screen. She quickly switched to the next channel. I hovered the rim of the Coke can to hide my smile before taking a sip.
She stopped at the news. They wrapped up the previous story, a brutal house fire, and cut to the leading story. My mom hunched forward, gripping the remote. Her mouth crooked down as she listened intently to the women’s spiel.
The anchor named the eighteen-year-old senior, Michael Getz, the fifth suicide victim of Pacific Coast Highschool in Oregon. Except for the first one, all the deaths occurred over the summer. Their only direct link between the kids was P.C.H.
“Jeez, another one?” I said, swishing the remaining liquid at the bottom of the Coke can.

How about 'flipped' instead of 'switched'?
and I was thinking about making the suicides closer like Columbus OH. I am from the Cincinnati area, I wasn't going to explicitly mention Cincinnati but I did want the reader to at least know he is from southwest OH. I originally was going to have mass hysteria spread across the country, and I may still go about that but maybe having it closer before the spread ( or in general) would be "punchier"


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> aight, this is my rework so far...I am still sorting out how I want to present the suicide thing. I cut a lot of info out because I didn't want him to explain everything. I was wanting him to have interactions with his (future) friends at his school, or at least split it up in this chapter-
> I am been thinking bout my idea and the original concept before I went off the wall with ideas lol. Luckily I had some ideas hit me that will help tie in a theme I was originally going for. I still have a lot to think about buuut overall I feel like I'm finally heading in the right direction with a cleaner idea/concept.
> 
> *1/* My mom flicked through the channels searching for decent entertainment. She paused on ESPN and scoffed while girls in skimpy outfits paraded around on screen. *2/* She quickly switched to the next channel. I hovered the rim of the Coke can to hide my smile before taking a sip.



'decent entertainment' seems a little formal and not in line with your chosen style. You don't need 'my'. If you refer to her as 'mom', it's not going to be someone else's mom. This is that assumed state again. You'd modify it by adding 'their' if it was someone else's mom, but you'd only use 'mom' if it was your own mother.* 'Mom flicked through the channels and searched for something of interest to watch.' *I've used 'and' to allow me to remove 'ing' and 'of interest' to allow me to remove another 'ing' at the end. Because she's flicking through the channels, which shows it's on TV, and it's something you'd watch, you can lose the 'to watch' and end on 'interest'. Small point but worth thinking about: *'Mom flicked through the channels and searched for something of interest.'* I'd personally go with that. It's snappier. *2/* if she took the time to scoff at girls parading around, then she didn't flick the channel immediately. She lingered long enough to absorb it to some extent. Even after saying that, 'quickly' should be removed. She's 'flicking' which means she's moving through the channels arbitrarily and quickly. *'She switched to the next channel'*. You've only given one example of a channel she's fallen upon and I don't think that's enough, unless it's the fact she scoffed at skimpily dressed girls that made the protag smile. You have to be clear here. Either it's her sporadic channel changing or her scoffing at skimpily dressed girls. Both tell us something about the mother. If you focus on the flicking as the cause of the smile, then that suggests she's often unfocused and can never decide. If you focus on the skimpily dressed girls as the cause of the smile, then that suggests she's little old fashioned and perhaps prudish. 



KeganThompson said:


> *1/* She stopped at the news. They wrapped up the previous story, a brutal house fire, and cut to the leading story. My Mom hunched forward, gripping the remote. Her mouth crooked down as she listened intently to the women’s spiel.



Small point. So, she's flicking through the channels. It doesn't seem she's looking for anything in particular. It's an arbitrary act. One after the other, nothing really grabbing her attention and then she hits the news. Because of what's preceded it and how it's set up, I'd want to write it in this way *'She eventually plumped for the news'.* 'eventually' because we've gone through a sequence and 'plumped' because she's finally settled on something in her arbitrary search. 'lead story' sounds better than 'leading story'. And you lose another 'ing'.



KeganThompson said:


> The anchor named the eighteen-year-old senior, Michael Getz, the fifth suicide victim of Pacific Coast Highschool in Oregon. *1/* Except for the first one, all the deaths occurred over the summer. *2/* Their only direct link between the kids was P.C.H.
> “Jeez, another one?” I said, swishing the remaining liquid at the bottom of the Coke can.



*1/* I'm not keen on the use of 'one'. I always try to avoid it. Here you can end on 'first' or simply repeat 'suicide'. I'd just remove 'one' personally. It still reads perfectly fine. *2/* This is where I know instinctively something is wrong but can't put it in grammatical terminology. 'Their only direct link between ... the kids was ...' 'between' is the problem there but I like I said I can't explain in grammatical terms, I can only offer two options that would put it right. Either: *'Their only direct link was P.C.H'* or *'The only direct link between the kids was P.C.H.'* If someone who does know a lot about grammar could step in and explain the reason that doesn't sound right, it would be great! I'd like to learn too. 



KeganThompson said:


> How about 'flipped' instead of 'switched'?
> and I was thinking about making the suicides closer like Columbus OH. I am from the Cincinnati area, I wasn't going to explicitly mention Cincinnati but I did want the reader to at least know he is from southwest OH. I originally was going to have mass hysteria spread across the country, and I may still go about that but maybe having it closer before the spread ( or in general) would be "punchier"


Switched is fine. 'flipped' may well fit into the arbitrary nature a little better though. I'd have to give that more thought but initially I think it works slightly better.


----------



## KeganThompson

I see what you're saying I was feeling like what he was smiling at was unclear too. he was smiling at her scoff AND the skimpily dressed girls lol She stopped on the channel because she knew it was something her son would like (sports/basketball), but skipped over it because of the girls. -this is not super clear but I am going to mention he played basketball before his parent's divorce and you will learn more about his mom's character regarding her values. 
I used the word decent thinking about how his mom would put it, since she is the one flipping through the channels. Maybe I can put "decent" in quotations to more eluding to the fact its more of his moms wording than his?
 I'm still learning of the balance between being too vague and over-telling. In some instances, u can over tell, and depending on the context it's okay to be a bit vague if you are going to "put the pieces" together. But in this instance, I can see why its hard to connect the dots on exactly what's going on. I will say something like, "she finally settled for the news"-kinda given the impression she has given up.
hopefully, I am improving a but lol. it's a lot harder to put the proper words together to convey the proper thing you wanna convey than I originally thought it was. I look at my writing all the time like No. that's not quite right. Why? mh not sure


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> I see what you're saying I was feeling like what he was smiling at was unclear too. he was smiling at her scoff AND the skimpily dressed girls lol She stopped on the channel because she knew it was something her son would like (sports/basketball), but skipped over it because of the girls. -this is not super clear but I am going to mention he played basketball before his parent's divorce and you will learn more about his mom's character regarding her values.
> I used the word decent thinking about how his mom would put it, since she is the one flipping through the channels. Maybe I can put "decent" in quotations to more eluding to the fact its more of his moms wording than his?
> I'm still learning of the balance between being too vague and over-telling. In some instances, u can over tell, and depending on the context it's okay to be a bit vague if you are going to "put the pieces" together. But in this instance, I can see why its hard to connect the dots on exactly what's going on. I will say something like, "she finally settled for the news"-kinda given the impression she has given up.
> hopefully, I am improving a but lol. it's a lot harder to put the proper words together to convey the proper thing you wanna convey than I originally thought it was. I look at my writing all the time like No. that's not quite right. Why? mh not sure


I'm not sure quotations will cut it. Perhaps have her saying it and then go into the description of the channels. Something like:

Mom flicked through the channels. "Is there any decent entertainment on this damned thing?" Then continue your description.


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## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> I'm not sure quotations will cut it. Perhaps have her saying it and then go into the description of the channels. Something like:
> 
> Mom flicked through the channels. "Is there any decent entertainment on this damned thing?" Then continue your description.


Mom flicked through the channels searching for what she'd call "decent entertainment."? idk why I'm so keen on the word decent. i think its because it reminds me of what my grandma would say lol


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Mom flicked through the channels searching for what she'd call "decent entertainment."? idk why I'm so keen on the word decent. i think its because it reminds me of what my grandma would say lol


Naaa, that works.


----------



## KeganThompson

Okay this is the last of this section. I wanna see how good of a first page I have. This leads off the last part I posted. a lot of dialogue and I haven't shown much dialogue to get critiqued on.

Her brows furrowed. “Ash.” My queue to shut up.
I rolled my eyes, knowing she wouldn't catch it. I stood up from the couch and shuffled past her. The floor transitioned from carpet to hardwood, and I chucked the container to the corner of the kitchen. It smacked the wall and splashed remnants above the trash can. But I made it in.
A gust of wind caused rain to pelt against the kitchen window. The summer storm raged on. The TV volume rose, drowning out the beating rain. I reached for my phone I left on the breakfast bar at dinner.
    Turning on the screen, I saw I received a text from Mark.
I peered up from the phone and out into the living room-our apartment had a pretty open floor plan. Mom continued to lean forward but loosened her hold on the remote. When the news ended, she rested her back on the couch cushion and began her search over again.
“Mom, can I go to Marks this weekend?”
“Aren’t you supposed to go to your dad’s?” She stopped on a rerun of Friends.
“Well, yeah-”
She looked at me. “Then you need to ask him.”
My shoulders slumped, I paced over to her. “I don’t know if he’ll let me go over.”
 The laugh track faded out.
 “I’m sure he will.” Mom reached for her pack of Marlboro lights that she kept on the coffee table. “You haven’t seen Mark since we moved back.”
    She stuck the cigarette in her mouth and flicked the bic lighter. Mom took a deep inhale and waved her hand as she blew out the smoke. “If he doesn’t, I’ll talk to him but you gotta ask him first, ‘kay?”
    I nodded and held my breath until I made it to my room. I breathed out my nose and yelled down the hall. “Aren’t you not suppose to smoke in here?”
    “It’s storming outside, what am I supposed to do?”

couple notes. I don't know how well "The floor transitioned from carpet to hardwood, and I chucked the container to the corner of the kitchen." works. the floor transitioned from carpet to hardwood comes off a bit interesting. I'm trying to suggest that the main separation other than the breakfast bar is the change in flooring to hardwood. The living room and kitchen is basically one big room but the change and floor and breakfast bar is what separates the two. that's why I added our apartment had a pretty open floor plan.
the description of him tossing his coke can might be a little off too. idk how I feel about "It smacked the wall and splashed remnants above the trash can"- he tossed the can, it hit the wall causing the little bit of soda at the bottom to splash on the wall before It went into the trash can.
with the storm idk how I feel about "pelt against" or if I should reword that or not use the word "against"
“Aren’t you not suppose to smoke in here?” I know its a weird way to word it, a double negative but the MC is trying to phrase it to sound like he is asking and not telling her.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Her brows furrowed. “Ash.” My queue *(cue) *to shut up.
> *1/* I rolled my eyes, knowing she wouldn't catch it. I stood up from the couch and shuffled past her. *2/* The floor transitioned from carpet to hardwood, *3/* and I chucked the container to the corner of the kitchen. *4/* It smacked the wall and splashed remnants above the trash can. But I made it in.



*1/ *'I rolled my eyes, knowing she wouldn't catch it'. I would recommend changing 'it' to 'the gesture' to stop any unnecessary confusion ... *2/* these are two separate things. Full stop after 'hardwood'. I'm not sure about 'chucked' when 'threw' or 'tossed' is a perfectly good word for your needs. *3/* Why use 'container'? It's a coke can isn't it?* 'I tossed the coke can at the bin in the corner of the kitchen.' 4/ *Both 'chucked' and 'smacked' leap out at me. Neither feel at home here. *'It missed and hit the wall, but luckily dropped inside, leaving a splatter of coke on the lemon wallpaper. *



KeganThompson said:


> *1/* A gust of wind caused rain to pelt against the kitchen window. *2/ *The summer storm raged on. The TV volume rose, drowning out the beating rain. I reached for my phone I left on the breakfast bar at dinner.



'caused' is another one of those words to try and avoid. It's passive.* 'A gust of wind lashed rain against the kitchen window.' 2/ *You've got these sentences back to front in my opinion. Try bringing the two together: *'The summer storm raged on, and a gust of wind lashed rain against the kitchen window.'*



KeganThompson said:


> *1/*   Turning on the screen, I saw I received a text from Mark.
> *2/* I peered up from the phone and out into the living room-our apartment had a pretty open floor plan. Mom continued to lean forward but loosened her hold on the remote. When the news ended, she rested her back on the couch cushion and began her search over again.



*1/* There's no need to tell the reader you've turned the screen on. If you're reading a text, you turned the screen on. It also allows you to remove the unwanted 'saw': *'I'd received a text from Mark.' *If you're dealing with the senses, you don't need to attribute them to the protag. All you have to do is describe them. We're in his head and so everything experienced is automatically seen, heard, felt, tasted, smelt through him. Rather than 'I smelt burning rubber' write 'the smell of burning rubber filled the air'. etc. It's a longer sentence but consider where the reader is. If you say 'I smelt ...' then the reader is no longer in the moment, the protag is. The reader is receiving the information second hand. *2/* 'pretty open'. What is 'pretty' functioning as here? It's a throw away word and should be lost on EVERY occasion, other than in dialogue. A case could be made for its inclusion in a more chatty, informal voice/style, but that's not what you've gone for in your story so far. 



KeganThompson said:


> “Mom, can I go to Marks this weekend?”
> “Aren’t you supposed to go to your dad’s?” She stopped on a rerun of Friends.
> “Well, yeah-”
> She looked at me. “Then you need to ask him.”
> My shoulders slumped, I paced over to her. “I don’t know if he’ll let me go over.”



Either a full stop or an 'and' between 'slumped' and 'I'. 



KeganThompson said:


> The laugh track faded out.



This is nice. 



KeganThompson said:


> “I’m sure he will.” Mom reached for her pack of Marlboro lights that she kept on the coffee table. “You haven’t seen Mark since we moved back.”
> She stuck the cigarette in her mouth and flicked the bic lighter. Mom took a deep inhale and waved her hand as she blew out the smoke. “If he doesn’t, I’ll talk to him but you gotta ask him first, ‘kay?”



'deep inhale' sounds awkward. 'inhaled deeply' is better.* 'Mom inhaled deeply and waved her hand as she blew out the smoke.'*



KeganThompson said:


> I nodded and held my breath until I made it to my room. I breathed out my nose and yelled down the hall. “Aren’t you not suppose to smoke in here?”
> “It’s storming outside, what am I supposed to do?”


Quite a nice conversation going on. I'm wondering how long it's going to be before you want to hit me with a baseball bat ...


----------



## Smith

TheMightyAz said:


> *1/ *'made as tall as trees by their ancientness' is a tad awkward and we end on a less than resolute word. If you directly attribute their age to the trees, it sounds much better: *'Vibrant green stems, as tall as ancient trees, wavered in a sea of wet and oppressive heat.' 2/ *'slid down their lengths' is a complete journey for the beads from top to bottom, so making the progress of those beads contradict dripping from their blades. Do you see? Whilst you've used 'and' there, showing a simultaneous action, the journey has already been read and absorbed by the reader. I would also consider losing 'beads'. Not that it's wrong. It's just so associated with faces, it feels wrong.* 'Condensation trickled down, and dripped from tips of blades to feed the soft, rich earth.' *I'd rejig these two sentences slightly in order to allow for 'stems' to appear in the second sentence: *'Vibrant green plants, as tall as ancient trees, wavered in a sea of wet and oppressive heat. Condensation trickled down their stems, and dripped from tips of blades to feed the soft, rich earth.' 3/ *You tell us that flies and gnats are swimming in the humidity but then add they've disappeared. As the reader reads, they're there but then they're not. You'll have to rethink this. *'Flies and gnats had long gone'*, springs to mind, although that's hardly perfect. *4/* 'cacophonous chattering'. Cacophonous is one of those words that needs careful consideration and if placed incorrectly can come across as pretentious or a 'thesaurus moment.' Here is actually weakens the sentence because 'chattering' is an interesting way of describing the sound.* 'The chattering of unseen insects had ceased.' *I'd consider joining the two sentences: *'Flies and gnats had long gone, and the chattering of unseen insects ceased.'* *5/* 'in the/in the/which' just make this sentence stumble. 'further from Remy's eyes' removes the reader from the story and makes them second hand participants. The use of colossal removes any chance of upping the ante later on.* 'Gaps in the grass grew ever tighter, ever darker, and something circled Remy.' *If he can't see it, he can't know what size it is. In order to point out it's big and powerful, you could mention the sounds related to something bulky pushing its way through the undergrowth. If he does already know what it is, use 'huge' or 'large' but save the superlatives for the very last chapter or page. They leave you no where to go when you want to crank it up. See it as putting your headphones on 10 from the start and then realising you'd like it louder.
> 
> 
> 
> When you say 'human sized' fangs, I'm assuming you mean they were the size of humans and not the size of fangs you'd expect to find in a human's mouth. I'd think of a better comparison there.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you see Remy? Is he formal? The tone of the snake is formal and therefore authoritative/threatening. But what about Remy? Perhaps the contracted version of 'I have' and other words would suit him better. *'I can only remember I've forgotten'.* Normally 'that' should be removed as often as possible from your writing, but it's OK in dialogue. BUT, it adds that formality. By removing it, Remy is more your average Joe.
> 
> 
> 
> It's only a short dialogue exchange but it's well done. You might think I don't like it because of all the red stuff! Nope, I think it's great but needs trimming and a little more care. That's all. It's there though. There is no doubt. Good stuff.
> 
> It's not too long at all. I meant three paragraphs loosely. Three chunky paragraphs or several slight paragraphs are about the same length



Thank-you so much! All great advice. I feel that these are the things that are most difficult for me to see in my own writing; style. Just to show appreciation for your time, I will share the new draft that has incorporated much of your feedback.

I am struggling to show or describe how big this "creature" is (I mean, before the snake guardian reveals itself). Like, I can't think of a way to do it without saying "It sounded like it was big."

---

Vibrant green plants, as tall as ancient trees, wavered in a sea of wet and oppressive heat. Condensation slid down their stems, dripped from the tips of their blades, feeding the soft rich earth. The flies and gnats that were swimming in the humidity just moments ago had disappeared. The chattering of unseen insects had ceased. All around him now the towering foliage rustled, but not by any wind. Gaps in the undergrowth grew ever smaller, ever darker, and something circled Remy.

"This air... it feels like breathing in water, doesn't it?" The whisper came from his left, and yet started in his mind. Remy stood still. The sweat on his brow ran cold. Silence.

"It feels like drowning without _releasssse_," it hissed again, this time in front of him, voice rising to a crescendo as its scaly head and neck reared into the sky, eclipsing the sun. The glint in the snake's hazel eyes fixed Remy in place. His feet refused to turn away.

"Who are you, wanderer? _Sssspeak_. And do not lie, for I only ask what I already know." The snake smiled, bearing fangs that were the size of a man.

"Remy- my name is Remy," he replied, barely able to catch his breath. He swallowed.

"That is the name you were given. But I have been called many names, and not all of them fitting. Have you still no memory of what you have forgotten?"

"I have forgotten," he answered shortly, trying to prevent the terror from betraying his voice.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Smith said:


> Thank-you so much! All great advice. I feel that these are the things that are most difficult for me to see in my own writing; style. Just to show appreciation for your time, I will share the new draft that has incorporated much of your feedback.
> 
> I am struggling to show or describe how big this "creature" is (I mean, before the snake guardian reveals itself). Like, I can't think of a way to do it without saying "It sounded like it was big."
> 
> ---
> 
> Vibrant green plants, as tall as ancient trees, wavered in a sea of wet and oppressive heat. Condensation slid down their stems, dripped from the tips of their blades, feeding the soft rich earth. The flies and gnats that were swimming in the humidity just moments ago had disappeared. The chattering of unseen insects had ceased. All around him now the towering foliage rustled, but not by any wind. Gaps in the undergrowth grew ever smaller, ever darker, and something colossal circled Remy.
> 
> "This air... it feels like breathing in water, doesn't it?" The whisper came from his left, and yet started in his mind. Remy stood still. The sweat on his brow ran cold. Silence.
> 
> "It feels like drowning without _releasssse_," it hissed again, this time in front of him, voice rising to a crescendo as its scaly head and neck reared into the sky, eclipsing the sun. The glint in the snake's hazel eyes fixed Remy in place. His feet refused to turn away.
> 
> "Who are you, wanderer? _Sssspeak_. And do not lie, for I only ask what I already know." The snake smiled, bearing fangs that were the size of a man.
> 
> "Remy- my name is Remy," he replied, barely able to catch his breath. He swallowed.
> 
> "That is the name you were given. But I have been called many names, and not all of them fitting. Have you still no memory of what you have forgotten?"
> 
> "I can only remember that I have forgotten," he answered.


Much better but there are still a few things there I'd be pointing out if I were to give it a second pass.  Look at my original post and give it just a little more thought. A few things I mentioned still jump out at me. As I said though, much tighter.


----------



## Smith

TheMightyAz said:


> Much better but there are still a few things there I'd be pointing out if I were to give it a second pass.  Look at my original post and give it just a little more thought. A few things I mentioned still jump out at me. As I said though, much tighter.



Whoopsie, I didn't realize I'd left "colossal" in. Fixed now.

What recommendations might you have for describing the size of something unseen? Like, without saying, "There was a lot of noise so it must have been big." which is rather unimaginative, and more telling than showing.

Since this excerpt is actually stand-alone at the moment, once I write something that leads into this scene it should become possible to build the tension ("volume") more effectively, and better space-out some of the descriptions. I suppose that is one issue with such a short stand-alone excerpt; I haven't set anything up yet, which means I have to kinda force it to be able to stand by itself.

Spreading this across 2-3 pages rather than three paragraphs means I could describe droplets falling off the tips of leaves, _and_ sliding down stems, in completely separate sentences so that the ideas do not conflict by their proximity, for example.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> *1/ *'I rolled my eyes, knowing she wouldn't catch it'. I would recommend changing 'it' to 'the gesture' to stop any unnecessary confusion ... *2/* these are two separate things. Full stop after 'hardwood'. I'm not sure about 'chucked' when 'threw' or 'tossed' is a perfectly good word for your needs. *3/* Why use 'container'? It's a coke can isn't it?* 'I tossed the coke can at the bin in the corner of the kitchen.' 4/ *Both 'chucked' and 'smacked' leap out at me. Neither feel at home here. *'It missed and hit the wall, but luckily dropped inside, leaving a splatter of coke on the lemon wallpaper. *
> 
> 
> 
> 'caused' is another one of those words to try and avoid. It's passive.* 'A gust of wind lashed rain against the kitchen window.' 2/ *You've got these sentences back to front in my opinion. Try bringing the two together: *'The summer storm raged on, and a gust of wind lashed rain against the kitchen window.'
> 
> 
> 
> 1/* There's no need to tell the reader you've turned the screen on. If you're reading a text, you turned the screen on. It also allows you to remove the unwanted 'saw': *'I'd received a text from Mark.' *If you're dealing with the senses, you don't need to attribute them to the protag. All you have to do is describe them. We're in his head and so everything experienced is automatically seen, heard, felt, tasted, smelt through him. Rather than 'I smelt burning rubber' write 'the smell of burning rubber filled the air'. etc. It's a longer sentence but consider where the reader is. If you say 'I smelt ...' then the reader is no longer in the moment, the protag is. The reader is receiving the information second hand. *2/* 'pretty open'. What is 'pretty' functioning as here? It's a throw away word and should be lost on EVERY occasion, other than in dialogue. A case could be made for its inclusion in a more chatty, informal voice/style, but that's not what you've gone for in your story so far.
> 
> 
> 
> Either a full stop or an 'and' between 'slumped' and 'I'.
> 
> 
> 
> This is nice.
> 
> 
> 
> 'deep inhale' sounds awkward. 'inhaled deeply' is better.* 'Mom inhaled deeply and waved her hand as she blew out the smoke.'*
> 
> 
> Quite a nice conversation going on. I'm wondering how long it's going to be before you want to hit me with a baseball bat ...


Wow I knew "queue" was wrong at first a had que, then I wrote  queue. BOTH WRONG 
Lol I originally did not have "I saw" in there but then I over thought it and added it. I know I'm not suppose to say things like "I saw" but idk felt like "I received a text from mark" was too short. Er not right. Yeah "pretty" it's filler word but I popped it in anyway by pretty I mean fairly-which is another filter word 
I also had "tossed" instead of "chucked"
I used "container" I originally had "pop can" (pop a Midwest thing lol) because I said "trash can." So I don't want to use "can again" Garbage bin or bin is fine but it's not super common to say trash bin or garbage bin (at least not for me) it's always "trash can"so I didn't think about it. I think I'm really good at over thinking things lol


I think I set the expectations to high for the "drama" nothing dramatic happens until quite a bit later. I do plan to keep my chapters "pretty" short tho.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Smith said:


> Whoopsie, I didn't realize I'd left "colossal" in. Fixed now.
> 
> What recommendations might you have for describing the size of something unseen? Like, without saying, "There was a lot of noise so it must have been big." which is rather unimaginative, and more telling than showing.
> 
> Since this excerpt is actually stand-alone at the moment, once I write something that leads into this scene it should become possible to build the tension ("volume") more effectively, and better space-out some of the descriptions. I suppose that is one issue with such a short stand-alone excerpt; I haven't set anything up yet, which means I have to kinda force it to be able to stand by itself.
> 
> Spreading this across 2-3 pages rather than three paragraphs means I could describe droplets falling off the tips of leaves, _and_ sliding down stems, in completely separate sentences so that the ideas do not conflict by their proximity, for example.



Something like (with a few other possible alterations)

Vibrant green plants, as tall as ancient trees, wavered in a sea of wet and oppressive heat. Condensation slid down their stems, dripped from the tips of their blades and fed the soft rich earth. Flies and gnats that swam in the humidity just moments before had disappeared, and the chatter of unseen insects ceased. The towering foliage shook, and the ground trembled beneath his feet. Gaps in the undergrowth grew ever tighter, ever darker, as something circled Remy.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> Quite a nice conversation going on. I'm wondering how long it's going to be before you want to hit me with a baseball bat ...


I just noticed this. What does that mean?   
(and thanks I like to write dialogue)


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> I just noticed this. What does that mean?
> (and thanks I like to write dialogue)


It never ends ...  I'm just joking about the fact you keep posting and I keep critiquing and the red stuff keeps on coming.


----------



## JBF

KeganThompson said:


> My mom flicked through the channels searching for decent entertainment. She paused on ESPN and scoffed while girls in skimpy outfits paraded around on screen. She quickly switched to the next channel. I hovered the rim of the Coke can to hide my smile before taking a sip.



Better bones than the last.  That being said...still gotta work on that voice.  This reads more like a police report than somebody telling a story - "This happened, then this happened, then that happened, which I saw from my vantage between the third and fourth couch cushions..."

First-person POV has a significant number of huge rules and allowances that differ from third.  Chief among these is _voice.  _You're the one passing the story directly to the reader, and we have a hard time buying if you don't have some kind of distinguishing feature that entices us to listen to your story as opposed to the next.  In first-person you gotta _grab _people right out of the gate.  Show them a conundrum.  Illustrate an absurdity.  Give them something that they can recognize, no matter how small or seemingly insignificant.  You're less bound to structural convention than third-person, so make that work for you.

_...Mom had the remote, flipping through the wasteland that was local afternoon television on a rainy afternoon.  Just for a moment she paused - summer vacation on ESPN and a parade of college girls in fluorescent bikinis.  Her mouth turned down ever-so-slightly at the ends and they were gone, replaced by commercials for discount heart medication, hippie-era music collections (order in the next ten minutes and the shipping is FREE) and a low-rent haircut in a cheap suit shilling for the used car lot across town.  

The image of the girls lingered.  I hid my grin behind a can of Coke.  _





KeganThompson said:


> She stopped at the news. They wrapped up the previous story, a brutal house fire, and cut to the leading story. My mom hunched forward, gripping the remote. Her mouth crooked down as she listened intently to the women’s spiel.



_At last she settled on the local news.  A red-letter day for bleeding and leading, starting with a housefire.  Most days that would have been enough, but today was something extra._



KeganThompson said:


> The anchor named the eighteen-year-old senior, Michael Getz, the fifth suicide victim of Pacific Coast Highschool in Oregon. Except for the first one, all the deaths occurred over the summer. Their only direct link between the kids was P.C.H.



Okay...I'll quit rewriting your story for a minute.  One thing that always boots me right out of a story is when nominal professionals don't sound like members of their given profession.  Listen to news reports for a while.  See what the talking heads do.  How they talk, what they emphasize, whether they have favored turns of phrase or distinctive styles of speech.  Admittedly, most of these will be examples of _terrible writing _that would never pass the sniff-test for fiction, but are rather polished examples of what viewers expect to see versus what they might actually learn.

Also, remember that news is 1% fact and 99% bullshit, obfuscation, error, and misunderstanding.

"_A Pacific Coast High School senior is dead tonight, one in a rash of suspected suicides which have haunted an Oregon town this summer.  On an anonymous tip police were dispatched the campus earlier this afternoon, where shortly afterwards the student was found alone in the basement and pronounced dead at the scene.  Out of respect for the family the authorities are not releasing details or the name of the student at this time.  In light of the recent deaths, educators and mental health professionals are urging parents and teens to take an active interest in the emotional wellbeing of those around them, especially in the summer months when many youths are at the greatest risk of..._"

You get the idea.



KeganThompson said:


> “Jeez, another one?” I said, swishing the remaining liquid at the bottom of the Coke can.



 Leverage this.  Use it to your advantage.

More snarky teenage detachment.  Less after-action report.

***

You're getting there.  Everything you've written has improved on the piece before.  Still got one great long mother of a slog ahead of you, though.

Keep at it.


----------



## JBF

Smith said:


> Vibrant green plants, as tall as ancient trees, wavered in a sea of wet and oppressive heat.



This isn't a bad opener.  Only one thing sticks out - if the plants are as tall as trees, how do you describe trees?  

I'm assuming for the moment that our protag is a woodland critter of some kind, given the perspective.  



Smith said:


> Condensation slid down their stems, dripped from the tips of their blades, feeding the soft rich earth. The flies and gnats that were swimming in the humidity just moments ago had disappeared. The chattering of unseen insects had ceased. All around him now the towering foliage rustled, but not by any wind. Gaps in the undergrowth grew ever smaller, ever darker, and something circled Remy.



Solid.  And ominous.   



Smith said:


> "This air... it feels like breathing in water, doesn't it?" The whisper came from his left, and yet started in his mind.



One suggestion: if it's a thought, italicize.  I'm not sure if there's a rule for that, but it's a good piece of shorthand that delineates between internal and external voices.  



Smith said:


> "Who are you, wanderer? _Sssspeak_. And do not lie, for I only ask what I already know." The snake smiled, bearing fangs that were the size of a man.



Slightly hazy as to whether this is a very small MC or a very large snake.  The opening line suggests the former.  Man-sized fangs suggests the latter.  This is mildly reminiscent of the tree/plant question, as two things have been compared which aren't equal and which both (presumably) exist in the same setting.  



Smith said:


> "I have forgotten," he answered shortly, trying to prevent the terror from betraying his voice.



'...to hold the terror from his voice' or '...prevent his voice from betraying his terror' might suit better here.  The terror is his.  The voice betrays _his _terror specifically.  Influenced by the terror, his voice may show the terror and betray _him_.  

Those are my nits to pick.  Don't let me discourage you, though - this is a pretty strong excerpt in its own right.


----------



## KeganThompson

JBF said:


> Better bones than the last.  That being said...still gotta work on that voice.  This reads more like a police report than somebody telling a story - "This happened, then this happened, then that happened, which I saw from my vantage between the third and fourth couch cushions..."
> 
> First-person POV has a significant number of huge rules and allowances that differ from third.  Chief among these is _voice.  _You're the one passing the story directly to the reader, and we have a hard time buying if you don't have some kind of distinguishing feature that entices us to listen to your story as opposed to the next.  In first-person you gotta _grab _people right out of the gate.  Show them a conundrum.  Illustrate an absurdity.  Give them something that they can recognize, no matter how small or seemingly insignificant.  You're less bound to structural convention than third-person, so make that work for you.
> 
> _...Mom had the remote, flipping through the wasteland that was local afternoon television on a rainy afternoon.  Just for a moment she paused - summer vacation on ESPN and a parade of college girls in fluorescent bikinis.  Her mouth turned down ever-so-slightly at the ends and they were gone, replaced by commercials for discount heart medication, hippie-era music collections (order in the next ten minutes and the shipping is FREE) and a low-rent haircut in a cheap suit shilling for the used car lot across town.
> 
> The image of the girls lingered.  I hid my grin behind a can of Coke.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At last she settled on the local news.  A red-letter day for bleeding and leading, starting with a housefire.  Most days that would have been enough, but today was something extra._
> 
> 
> 
> Okay...I'll quit rewriting your story for a minute.  One thing that always boots me right out of a story is when nominal professionals don't sound like members of their given profession.  Listen to news reports for a while.  See what the talking heads do.  How they talk, what they emphasize, whether they have favored turns of phrase or distinctive styles of speech.  Admittedly, most of these will be examples of _terrible writing _that would never pass the sniff-test for fiction, but are rather polished examples of what viewers expect to see versus what they might actually learn.
> 
> Also, remember that news is 1% fact and 99% bullshit, obfuscation, error, and misunderstanding.
> 
> "_A Pacific Coast High School senior is dead tonight, one in a rash of suspected suicides which have haunted an Oregon town this summer.  On an anonymous tip police were dispatched the campus earlier this afternoon, where shortly afterwards the student was found alone in the basement and pronounced dead at the scene.  Out of respect for the family the authorities are not releasing details or the name of the student at this time.  In light of the recent deaths, educators and mental health professionals are urging parents and teens to take an active interest in the emotional wellbeing of those around them, especially in the summer months when many youths are at the greatest risk of..._"
> 
> You get the idea.
> 
> 
> 
> Leverage this.  Use it to your advantage.
> 
> More snarky teenage detachment.  Less after-action report.
> 
> ***
> 
> You're getting there.  Everything you've written has improved on the piece before.  Still got one great long mother of a slog ahead of you, though.
> 
> Keep at it.


man, you're more brutal than AZ lol (that's okay, that's why I joined the forum)
I've been focusing on tidying the words I use like filters etc...I did lose his personality a bit when describing what's going on...

*Okay...I'll quit rewriting your story for a minute.  One thing that always boots me right out of a story is when nominal professionals don't sound like members of their given profession.  Listen to news reports for a while.  See what the talking heads do.  How they talk, what they emphasize, whether they have favored turns of phrase or distinctive styles of speech.  Admittedly, most of these will be examples of terrible writing that would never pass the sniff-test for fiction, but are rather polished examples of what viewers expect to see versus what they might actually learn.*

 if you gonna roast me, roast me for being lazy. lol. I'm aware it doesn't sound like a professional saying the report- because it wasnt. I was using him to filter/ summarize to the reader what was said instead of writing directly to the reader what the anchor said. "a bit" of a cop-out? totally. I am still working on the suicides aspect of the story too...so I skimmed over that. But you're right I need to have the voice of the anchor tell the story...not the MC summarize it.

I am thinking of writing a short story soon but I still gotta do some research and think about it some more. I also get attached to my ideas so it's gonna be hard to put this one away...but might be best for it, so I can improve and get it to a better standard. 
you wanna give me some writing prompts?


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> man, you're more brutal than AZ lol (that's okay, that's why I joined the forum)
> I've been focusing on tidying the words I use like filters etc...I did lose his personality a bit when describing what's going on...
> 
> *Okay...I'll quit rewriting your story for a minute.  One thing that always boots me right out of a story is when nominal professionals don't sound like members of their given profession.  Listen to news reports for a while.  See what the talking heads do.  How they talk, what they emphasize, whether they have favored turns of phrase or distinctive styles of speech.  Admittedly, most of these will be examples of terrible writing that would never pass the sniff-test for fiction, but are rather polished examples of what viewers expect to see versus what they might actually learn.*
> 
> if you gonna roast me, roast me for being lazy. lol. I'm aware it doesn't sound like a professional saying the report- because it wasnt. I was using him to filter/ summarize to the reader what was said instead of writing directly to the reader what the anchor said. "a bit" of a cop-out? totally. I am still working on the suicides aspect of the story too...so I skimmed over that. But you're right I need to have the voice of the anchor tell the story...not the MC summarize it.
> 
> I am thinking of writing a short story soon but I still gotta do some research and think about it some more. I also get attached to my ideas so it's gonna be hard to put this one away...but might be best for it, so I can improve and get it to a better standard.
> you wanna give me some writing prompts?


You've got a great attitude. I think perhaps me talking about tone setter has inadvertently lead to confusion. I was actually talking about two things but then reduced it to one in my critiques. When I say 'tone setter', I mean the tone of the piece (voice/style) and the tone in terms of the story. I inevitably default to story tone because that's what I'm working on and I mainly write in third person. As JBF has pointed out, the real fun of first person is being able to break a few rules here and there, although, if you do, you better makes sure it's consistent throughout. That is hard to do. It's one of the main reasons most writers advocate writing in your own voice. You've been practising that all your life!

For me, it's also dangerous. If we accept that first person allows us to break rules, then how do you learn the rules as a beginner/intermediate? Do you see what I mean? The established wisdom is to know the rules first. This is for yourself as much an anyone else. How easy would it be to eventually default to 'Oh, I'm deliberately breaking the rules there' and never correct the mistakes? First you have to understand which rules you're breaking. Then you can pick which critique to listen to and which to respectfully disagree with.

I pointed out two words that jumped out at me earlier: 'chucked' and 'smacked'. I mentioned they didn't feel at home in this piece. That wasn't to say they're wrong, just that 'tonally' they were wrong in the context of the way you've written this so far. But if you take JBF and run with what he's said, those two words become very important tone setters. It's a matter of deciding on what tone you want to set.

But above all else, know the rules before you break them.


----------



## KeganThompson

This story is very important (to me) and I want it to be done well...so I'm overthinking things and don't allow myself to have as much fun as I should. I am still working on the concept as a whole but I feel much better about the direction i'm going in...with that being said, now I think it may be best to step back and let it rest to improve my craft and storytelling.
I love first person and I love writing first person. tbh that's all i'm interesting in writing...
My issue is...I don't know the rules to begin with so its a little hard when figuring how to "work things". I should look up a video or search to get a better grasp at what I need to avoid and why. I understand things like "I saw, I felt" and as you pointed out, I need to stop with "my"
I lack confidence in my writing so, I need to relax and work on a short story or two like you suggested.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> This story is very important (to me) and I want it to be done well...so I'm overthinking things and don't allow myself to have as much fun as I should. I am still working on the concept as a whole but I feel much better about the direction i'm going in...with that being said, now I think it may be best to step back and let it rest to improve my craft and storytelling.
> I love first person and I love writing first person. tbh that's all i'm interesting in writing...
> My issue is...I don't know the rules to begin with so its a little hard when figuring how to "work things". I should look up a video or search to get a better grasp at what I need to avoid and why. I understand things like "I saw, I felt" and as you pointed out, I need to stop with "my"
> I lack confidence in my writing so, I need to relax and work on a short story or two like you suggested.


The one thing you mustn't do is worry about leaving an old friend. If they're true friends and mean a lot to you, on reuniting, your fervour and enthusiasm for their company will elevate you and them beyond the friendship you thought you had. You're not kicking them to the curb, you're taking in the world in order to bring the world to them.

Just write some flash fiction. Don't think about this friend for a while and broaden your acquaintances. Then, when all is done and you're much wiser, return to your friend and tell him all about it.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> The one thing you mustn't do is worry about leaving an old friend. If they're true friends and mean a lot to you, on reuniting, your fervour and enthusiasm for their company will elevate you and them beyond the friendship you thought you had. You're not kicking them to the curb, you're taking in the world in order to bring the world to them.
> 
> Just write some flash fiction. Don't think about this friend for a while and broaden your acquaintances. Then, when all is done and you're much wiser, return to your friend and tell him all about it.


One thing that held me back from dropping it too is when I was younger and wrote stories I'd hop one to the other with no commitment I'd get bored and drop it...
But now that I'm getting a better understanding of writing and story telling...I don't think that will happen.
Okay, well, be prepared for some short stories  will try to post one...somewhere, within the next month


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> One thing that held me back from dropping it too is *when I was younger and wrote stories I'd hop one to the other* with no commitment I'd get bored and drop it...
> But now that I'm getting a better understanding of writing and story telling...I don't think that will happen.
> Okay, well, be prepared for some short stories  will try to post one...somewhere, within the next month


Same here and I'm certain we're not alone. But, I knew I could finish shorter stories.


----------



## JBF

KeganThompson said:


> man, you're more brutal than AZ lol (that's okay, that's why I joined the forum)



Does this title come with a hat?  Because I can always use another hat.  

In all honesty, your early stuff is almost certainly better than mine.  I'd give examples, but...I don't talk about my early stuff.  Truth is most of this writing racket is just figuring out how to make things work.  I had to do it the hard way because - until I found people who could provide feedback without worrying about stepping on my toes - I knew my stuff was crap but could never really pinpoint the cause.  

Part of this is knowing what you want to do on the page.  Part of this is knowing what you have in the toolbox.  The rest is mostly time and dedication.


----------



## JBF

TheMightyAz said:


> You've got a great attitude.



Seconded.  



TheMightyAz said:


> For me, it's also dangerous. If we accept that first person allows us to break rules, then how do you learn the rules as a beginner/intermediate? Do you see what I mean? The established wisdom is to know the rules first. This is for yourself as much an anyone else. How easy would it be to eventually default to 'Oh, I'm deliberately breaking the rules there' and never correct the mistakes? First you have to understand which rules you're breaking. Then you can pick which critique to listen to and which to respectfully disagree with.



Yup.



TheMightyAz said:


> I pointed out two words that jumped out at me earlier: 'chucked' and 'smacked'. I mentioned they didn't feel at home in this piece. That wasn't to say they're wrong, just that 'tonally' they were wrong in the context of the way you've written this so far. But if you take JBF and run with what he's said, those two words become very important tone setters. It's a matter of deciding on what tone you want to set.
> 
> But above all else, know the rules before you break them.



JBF is also kind of a horse's ass.  Important to keep that in mind.


----------



## KeganThompson

JBF said:


> Does this title come with a hat?  Because I can always use another hat.
> 
> In all honesty, your early stuff is almost certainly better than mine.  I'd give examples, but...I don't talk about my early stuff.  Truth is most of this writing racket is just figuring out how to make things work.  I had to do it the hard way because - until I found people who could provide feedback without worrying about stepping on my toes - I knew my stuff was crap but could never really pinpoint the cause.
> 
> Part of this is knowing what you want to do on the page.  Part of this is knowing what you have in the toolbox.  The rest is mostly time and dedication.



*Does this title come with a hat?  Because I can always use another hat.
   

In all honesty, your early stuff is almost certainly better than mine.*
Why Thank you, Thank you. I appreciate that. I try. I havent been writing for that long so that means a lot 

I was rereading what i wrote 6 months ago and honestly i am upset at how bad it is and how much I didnt notice lol. I have improved by reading and continuously writing certainly, but I have been on this forum for a little over a month and Its been helping me a lot. I'd get frustrated cuz the one person I'd show gave me NOTHING. they couldnt help. and I knew I needed help. I can get over my ego if it means improving and learning. 
* until I found people who could provide feedback without worrying about stepping on my toes - I knew my stuff was crap but could never really pinpoint the cause.  *AMEN


----------



## KeganThompson

JBF said:


> Seconded.
> 
> 
> 
> Yup.
> 
> 
> 
> JBF is also kind of a horse's ass.  Important to keep that in mind.


nahh, your just being honest and tryna help.


----------



## PiP

JBF said:


> don't talk about my early stuff.  Truth is most of this writing racket is just figuring out how to make things work.  I had to do it the hard way because - until I found people who could provide feedback without worrying about stepping on my toes - I knew my stuff was crap but could never really pinpoint the cause.
> 
> Part of this is knowing what you want to do on the page.  Part of this is knowing what you have in the toolbox.  The rest is mostly time and dedication.


Great attitude! We learn from each other


----------



## KeganThompson

Oh, would you look at that? It's been a whole day since I've posted something to get roasted...
I started a short story yesterday...got a little over a page so far...


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Oh, would you look at that? It's been a whole day since I've posted something to get roasted...
> I started a short story yesterday...got a little over a page so far...


So, post the first couple of paragraphs and let's see what you've got!


----------



## KeganThompson

Scratching at the paper, graphite lines created form on unused printer paper. Hunched in an office chair, Adrian paused to glance at the photo on his laptop screen. He resumed scratching and repeated the process. He was trying to draw me again. I glided over to get a better look.
“Looks good.” It was nothing more than a rough outline of my facial features, but the proportions looked accurate.
I wondered why, out of all the pictures on my profile, he always chose_ that_ one. 
Recently freeing my hair from it’s ponytail, my dirty blonde mane fluffed out in the humidity. Dew graced my forehead, sun kissed skin and cherry cheeks brought out my freckles. The photo was taken unprompted by my best friend, Tori, after we won the last soccer match of the year.
Adrian tried to draw me multiple times, each time he got frustrated and each time he never finished. Some renderings he kept hidden away, others got tossed in the bin. I drew my face closer to his and studied his expressions. Brows furrowed, eyes gazed from the white sheet to the computer screen. My image reflected in his dark eyes, lashes obscured a full view.
“So serious.” 
The hairs on the back of his neck stood up and goosebumps dotted his arms. 
I hovered my finger over a stray lock of brunette hair near his temple. He shuttered. “C’mon, I’m not even touching you.” I never did.
Stomping came from the hall outside his bedroom. Adrian's shoulders stiffened, hearing the thud grow closer, he quickly exited out the tab and shoved the drawing to the side. The page crumpled against the mess of papers, books and drawing supplies.
Adrian’s mom flung open the door, he swiveled to face her. The spin knocked the arm of the chair and wobbled the desk. The pencil he was using rolled and fell on the dingy carpet.
His mom, Sandra, raised her brows. “Can you take your sister to her friends tomorrow evening?”

some notes: I am working on the description of the photo. I feel its a little awkward and still not quite descriptive enough?
I said *was trying* and *was using*, instead of tried and used. I felt like it worked better for what I wanted.
I originally said "i never *do*" and I think it sounds better but when it comes to tenses, i try not to mess with that. When I was 12, I didnt understand tenses and had no idea what it was and how badly I shifted tenses haha. One of my English teachers said you can get away with it when using past tense but...I dont know if I should do that (gotta know the rules to break em). If I can get away with "do" instead of "did" I'd rather use it. But


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> *1/* Scratching at the paper, graphite lines created form on unused printer paper. Hunched in an office chair, Adrian paused to glance at the photo on his laptop screen. *2/* He resumed scratching and repeated the process. He was trying to draw me again. I glided over to get a better look.



*1/* Interesting first line. It's a pity you couldn't get rid of that repeat of paper. The line from 'graphite' has a nice rhythm to it. I'm wondering if you can remove the first part of the sentence*. 'Graphite lines scratched form on unused printer paper.'* *2/* We have two sentences beginning with 'he'. Not normally a problem and perfectly acceptable. However, both sentences have no breaks and a similar structure. If it were me, I'd link the two together: *'He resumed scratching, repeated the process, and tried to draw me again.'* You also get rid of that 'was'. Arguably, if he resumed and tried to draw the protag again, the 'repeated the process' is redundant and '*He resumed scratching and tried to draw me again'* would be enough. All in all though, I can already see this is an improvement. 



KeganThompson said:


> “Looks good.” It was nothing more than a rough outline of my facial features, but the proportions looked accurate.



'facial features' is a little awkward. When using the word 'features' in relation to a person and without context, the default is seen as 'face'. You can lose 'facial'. If you don't like the sound of that, use 'face'.



KeganThompson said:


> I wondered why, out of all the pictures on my profile, he always chose_ that_ one.
> Recently freeing my hair from it’s ponytail, my dirty blonde mane fluffed out in the humidity. Dew graced my forehead, sun kissed skin and cherry cheeks brought out my freckles. The photo was taken unprompted by my best friend, Tori, after we won the last soccer match of the year.



'Recently freeing' is another slightly awkward combination. I'd go with 'After'. Again though, much improved!



KeganThompson said:


> *1/ *Adrian tried to draw me multiple times, each time he got frustrated and each time he never finished. Some renderings he kept hidden away, others got tossed in the bin. I drew my face closer to his and studied his expressions. *2/* Brows furrowed, eyes gazed from the white sheet to the computer screen. *3/* My image reflected in his dark eyes, lashes obscured a full view.



*1/* I'd make this two sentences, otherwise making it sound right would mean adding 'ings' or jumping through hoops. *'Adrian tried to draw me multiple times. Each time he got frustrated and never finished.'* I don't think there's any value in emphasising 'each time' here. *2/* I wondered what the 'white sheet' was for a second. You're referring to the portrait, yes? In which case, I'd use 'portrait'. *3/* this is a very specific image. Getting this right could add a lovely sense of intimacy so I'd carry on revising this to get it as close to perfect as you can. Right now it's not quite working. I'd consider removing 'lashes obscured a full view'. That's what I find problematic and on reading it several times, you lose nothing of the intimacy if you remove it. 



KeganThompson said:


> “So serious.”
> The hairs on the back of his neck stood up and goosebumps dotted his arms.



Head hopping here. I doubt the protag would see the hairs on the back of his head stand up or the goosebumps on his arm. 



KeganThompson said:


> *1/* I hovered my finger over a stray lock of brunette hair near his temple. He shu*dd*ered. *[new paragraph]* “C’mon, I’m not even touching you.”* 2/* I never did.
> Stomping came from the hall outside his bedroom. Adrian's shoulders stiffened, hearing the thud grow closer*. H*e quickly exited out the tab and shoved the drawing to the side. The page crumpled against the mess of papers, books and drawing supplies.



*1/* Why 'near' his temple? Up, down, right, left ... where is near? Put it on (or at) his temple. *2/* There's no need to tell us the protag didn't touch him, the protag has said he didn't touch him. 



KeganThompson said:


> Adrian’s mom flung open the door.* H*e swiveled to face her. The spin knocked the arm of the chair and wobbled the desk. The pencil he was using rolled and fell on the dingy carpet.



If he was using the pencil, how did it roll to the floor? 'The pencil he'd used rolled and fell on the dingy carpet.' 



KeganThompson said:


> His mom, Sandra, raised her brows. “Can you take your sister to her friends tomorrow evening?”
> 
> some notes: I am working on the description of the photo. I feel its a little awkward and still not quite descriptive enough?
> I said *was trying* and *was using*, instead of tried and used. I felt like it worked better for what I wanted.
> I originally said "i never *do*" and I think it sounds better but when it comes to tenses, i try not to mess with that. When I was 12, I didnt understand tenses and had no idea what it was and how badly I shifted tenses haha. One of my English teachers said you can get away with it when using past tense but...I dont know if I should do that (gotta know the rules to break em). If I can get away with "do" instead of "did" I'd rather use it. But


----------



## KeganThompson

*1/* Interesting first line. It's a pity you couldn't get rid of that repeat of paper. The line from 'graphite' has a nice rhythm to it. I'm wondering if you can remove the first part of the sentence*. 'Graphite lines scratched form on unused printer paper.'* *2/* We have two sentences beginning with 'he'. Not normally a problem and perfectly acceptable. However, both sentences have no breaks and a similar structure. If it were me, I'd link the two together: *'He resumed scratching, repeated the process, and tried to draw me again.'* You also get rid of that 'was'. Arguably, if he resumed and tried to draw the protag again, the 'repeated the process' is redundant and '*He resumed scratching and tried to draw me again'* would be enough. All in all though, I can already see this is an improvement.

I agree I did not like the repeat of paper either. I was like ehh
*He resumed scratching, repeated the process, and tried to draw me again.- *this implies he is starting over. i'm trying to say this isn't the first time he tried to draw _her. _He's repeating the process of looking at his screen and drawing her. not repeating the action of redrawing. I know its a bit vague, so I need to find a way to explain that better. When I draw a portrait, whether that be from my phone or a printout or however. You look at the photo, work on the picture then repeat back and forth. I'm trying to express that, but with her implying AGAIN- gives off that he is redrawing over and over. I will probably remove the "again" since later down, its explained this isn't the first time he attempted a picture of her anyway.

I'd use 'portrait'. *3/* this is a very specific image. Getting this right could add a lovely sense of intimacy so I'd carry on revising this to get it as close to perfect as you can. Right now it's not quite working. I'd consider removing 'lashes obscured a full view'. That's what I find problematic and on reading it several times, you lose nothing of the intimacy if you remove it.

*'Recently freeing' is another slightly awkward combination*. - yeah I was looking at that in particular and didn't feel like it was right.
ah yess *portrait.* Kinda feel like an idiot for not thinking that. I've drawn portraits myself so idk WHY I didn't think of that word...

*Head hopping here. I doubt the protag would see the hairs on the back of his head stand up or the goosebumps on his arm. *I see your point BUT since the character is dead, might be an exception? that would also explain the goosebumps and hairs. He's cold.-this all gets explained but not trying to info dump everything I want to convey the watchful eye of the MC

*1/ Why 'near' his temple? Up, down, right, left ... where is near? Put it on (or at) his temple. 2/ There's no need to tell us the protag didn't touch him, the protag has said he didn't touch him.*
yeah "near" is not the best word...

*If he was using the pencil, how did it roll to the floor? 'The pencil he'd used rolled and fell on the dingy carpet.'* -touche
and WOW did I really use "shutter" and not "shudder" didn't realize he was supposed to be a window.
good points as always. Hopefully some context explains more of what I'm going for. I have the scene in my head its getting it out properly for the reader to understand is my main issue.


----------



## KeganThompson

Graphite lines scratched form on unused printer paper. Hunched in an office chair, Adrian paused to glance at the photo on his laptop screen. He resumed his sketch, taking brief pauses to study the picture. I glided over to get a better look.

how is this for the first paragraph? its better explained and not so confusing lol- still working on it tho


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Graphite lines scratched form on unused printer paper. Hunched in an office chair, Adrian paused to glance at the photo on his laptop screen. He resumed his sketch, taking brief pauses to study the picture. I glided over to get a better look.
> 
> how is this for the first paragraph? its better explained and not so confusing lol- still working on it tho


'taking brief pauses'. 'brief' isn't necessary because pauses are generally seen as brief. With a little added at the end, that 'taking' becomes redundant. *'He resumed his sketch, pausing to study the picture occasionally.'* or *'He resumed his sketch, pausing now and then to study the picture.'* 'Occasionally pausing' would sound awkward.  I prefer the latter.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> 'taking brief pauses'. 'brief' isn't necessary because pauses are generally seen as brief. With a little added at the end, that 'taking' becomes redundant. *'He resumed his sketch, pausing to study the picture occasionally.'* or *'He resumed his sketch, pausing now and then to study the picture.'* 'Occasionally pausing' would sound awkward.  I prefer the latter.


He resumed his sketch, stopping only to study the picture. ??? still not quite there but-


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> He resumed his sketch, stopping only to study the picture. ??? still not quite there but-


Yeah, that works.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> Yeah, that works.


okay- i'll leave ya alone (for now) When i'm done with my short do you recommend I post it to fiction work shot or try and seek beta readers? I want more critique tbh so I was thinking beta readers but..I've never looked for those before lol (ik we have a forum)


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> okay- i'll leave ya alone (for now) When i'm done with my short do you recommend I post it to fiction work shot or try and seek beta readers? I want more critique tbh so I was thinking beta readers but..I've never looked for those before lol (ik we have a forum)


To be honest, I think beta readers are a little premature. I wouldn't put myself up for beta reading either. Post a couple of paragraphs here for craft help and post the whole thing in the writing workshop for an overall view.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> To be honest, I think beta readers are a little premature. I wouldn't put myself up for beta reading either. Post a couple of paragraphs here for craft help and post the whole thing in the writing workshop for an overall view.


Okay,sounds good! I have the major scenes in my head but I don't have it planned out and I don't know how long it's gonna be tbh. Might be pretty long for a short story. Want to get it done in about a month but I'm not gonna rush it.
Thank you


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

I'd like to see people play around with the sentence a little just to get a different perspective on it. It's not flowing as I'd like. The idea of 'barber and mirror' is to say it's sharp, broad enough to see his face in and clearly well looked after.

Matted, ebony hair hung stiff about his shirt collar, fringe hacked, bone-handled hunting knife both barber and mirror.


----------



## Smith

JBF said:


> This isn't a bad opener.  Only one thing sticks out - if the plants are as tall as trees, how do you describe trees?
> 
> I'm assuming for the moment that our protag is a woodland critter of some kind, given the perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> Solid.  And ominous.
> 
> 
> 
> One suggestion: if it's a thought, italicize.  I'm not sure if there's a rule for that, but it's a good piece of shorthand that delineates between internal and external voices.
> 
> 
> 
> Slightly hazy as to whether this is a very small MC or a very large snake.  The opening line suggests the former.  Man-sized fangs suggests the latter.  This is mildly reminiscent of the tree/plant question, as two things have been compared which aren't equal and which both (presumably) exist in the same setting.
> 
> 
> 
> '...to hold the terror from his voice' or '...prevent his voice from betraying his terror' might suit better here.  The terror is his.  The voice betrays _his _terror specifically.  Influenced by the terror, his voice may show the terror and betray _him_.
> 
> Those are my nits to pick.  Don't let me discourage you, though - this is a pretty strong excerpt in its own right.



Apologies about the late response; been a bit all over the place lately.

Thank-you for the great response. Some of your questions, such as "big snake or small MC?" would be answered by way of context. I suppose that's the one downside of working with snippets like these. The MC is actually a person. I could include some detail about his boots or something to indicate him being a human (this would also answer the question about the fangs), but if I were to do that, such a detail would be included for a different primary purpose anyway. Matters such as these would have been cleared-up by the first page of the book, yet they are still perfectly valid questions for us here.

In any case, I think that means I got things right in terms of how big the snake is, especially if I try incorporating some variation of AZ's advice on this specifically.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Which is the better hook? I'm considering switching these paragraphs:

_*In this version, we lead with the mystery of Yarrod:*_

The desert shifted as Yarrod staggered on, saddle slumped across a stooped left shoulder, a furnace at his back. He wasn’t certain where or when he began—only that he endured. Pain gave him some comfort, some substance. He hungered and thirsted, suffered and weakened, just like the next man. There the similarity ended. No womb birthed him and no grave waited. He watched the world spin from outside of time and stole what moments he could to remind himself he was no ghost.

From his gold-inlay waistcoat pocket, he eased a red handkerchief and slid it across his brow. It was a simple piece of material, and yet he and it could never part. He tucked it back, deep into the pocket, thumb still touching a beat or two longer before he slipped his thumb free and dropped it to Sorrow’s hammer.

Sweat crept beneath his clothing like maggots on a dead man, but he paid it no mind. Far worse had crawled over him, within him, and not a one left a mark. There were bigger creatures to fear, with claws and teeth that more than trickled over flesh. They gouged, slashed, and bit their battles into him. Encounters written deep in blood.

_*In this version, we lead with the mystery of the red handkerchief. *_

From his gold-inlay waistcoat pocket, Yarrod eased a red handkerchief and slid it across his brow. It was a simple piece of material, and yet he and it could never part. He tucked it back, deep into the pocket, thumb still touching a beat or two longer before he slipped his thumb free and dropped it to Sorrow’s hammer.

The desert shifted as he staggered on, saddle slumped across a stooped left shoulder, a furnace at his back. He wasn’t certain where or when he began—only that he endured. Pain gave him some comfort, some substance. He hungered and thirsted, suffered and weakened, just like the next man. There the similarity ended. No womb birthed him and no grave waited. He watched the world spin from outside of time and stole what moments he could to remind himself he was no ghost.

Sweat crept beneath his clothing like maggots on a dead man, but he paid it no mind. Far worse had crawled over him, within him, and not a one left a mark. There were bigger creatures to fear, with claws and teeth that more than trickled over flesh. They gouged, slashed, and bit their battles into him. Encounters written deep in blood.


----------



## gwell66

TheMightyAz said:


> Which is the better hook? I'm considering switching these paragraphs:
> 
> _*In this version, we lead with the mystery of Yarrod:*_
> 
> The desert shifted as Yarrod staggered on, saddle slumped across a stooped left shoulder, a furnace at his back.


I like this opening more. Might be this writing style doesn't fit with me so I'm just mistaken about everything but I'm going to try to provide the best, detailed feedback I can. First thing, I was wondering about the shift. Is it just wind blowing sand or something much larger? Does it cause any difficulties? Should these be mentioned? Maybe a mention of the burden of the saddle but point out how it protects him from the furnace at his back.



TheMightyAz said:


> He wasn’t certain where or when he began—only that he endured.


Is this the product of heatstroke and being on the verge of death? He really honestly can't remember what started him on the journey? I think the main point is the end of the sentence so it might be better to adjust the beginning bc it left me wondering if and how a character would forget. Or more detail might be needed to hint at the justification for him forgetting.



TheMightyAz said:


> Pain gave him some comfort, some substance. He hungered and thirsted, suffered and weakened, just like the next man. There the similarity ended.


Sentence 1 just seems like a disconnected idea that could get deleted or fleshed out. But left as it is now, it feels out of place. Instead of "the next man" it could be "like any man.



TheMightyAz said:


> No womb birthed him and no grave waited.


Good mystery/leading concept.


TheMightyAz said:


> He watched the world spin from outside of time and stole what moments he could to remind himself he was no ghost.


"He watched" feels awkward. Is that what he has done since his existence began? Is he reflecting on this but he can't remember how this started? Then a better option might be: Throughout his existence, he's watched...
The "stole what moments he could" has me a little confused but I get that we're establishing he seems neither human nor ghost.



TheMightyAz said:


> From his gold-inlay waistcoat pocket, he eased a red handkerchief and slid it across his brow.


Might be me, I'd like to see the word "Out" at the start. Like, "He eased it out from" or "Out from his....he eased" or "Out of..."



TheMightyAz said:


> It was a simple piece of material, and yet he and it could never part. He tucked it back, deep into the pocket, thumb still touching a beat or two longer before he slipped his thumb free and dropped it to Sorrow’s hammer.


"thumb lingering a beat or two before he slipped it free..."
Wasn't sure about dropping it to "Sorrow's hammer". Hammering seems a more angry action. Might be a common metaphor or something I'm just not familiar with



TheMightyAz said:


> Sweat crept beneath his clothing like maggots on a dead man, but he paid it no mind.


This struck me as odd. The concept of sweat being like maggots might benefit from a little more detail. It felt like a setup for the next sentence but as it's own idea, has me confused.



TheMightyAz said:


> Far worse had crawled over him, within him, and not a one left a mark. There were bigger creatures to fear, with claws and teeth that more than trickled over flesh. They gouged, slashed, and bit their battles into him. Encounters written deep in blood.


"their claws...capable of more than..."


I hope this gave helpful ideas and let you know how at least one random reader might see things as he goes through.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

gwell66 said:


> I like this opening more. Might be this writing style doesn't fit with me so I'm just mistaken about everything but I'm going to try to provide the best, detailed feedback I can. First thing, I was wondering about the shift. Is it just wind blowing sand or something much larger? Does it cause any difficulties? Should these be mentioned? Maybe a mention of the burden of the saddle but point out how it protects him from the furnace at his back.
> 
> 
> Is this the product of heatstroke and being on the verge of death? He really honestly can't remember what started him on the journey? I think the main point is the end of the sentence so it might be better to adjust the beginning bc it left me wondering if and how a character would forget. Or more detail might be needed to hint at the justification for him forgetting.
> 
> 
> Sentence 1 just seems like a disconnected idea that could get deleted or fleshed out. But left as it is now, it feels out of place. Instead of "the next man" it could be "like any man.
> 
> 
> Good mystery/leading concept.
> 
> "He watched" feels awkward. Is that what he has done since his existence began? Is he reflecting on this but he can't remember how this started? Then a better option might be: Throughout his existence, he's watched...
> The "stole what moments he could" has me a little confused but I get that we're establishing he seems neither human nor ghost.
> 
> 
> Might be me, I'd like to see the word "Out" at the start. Like, "He eased it out from" or "Out from his....he eased" or "Out of..."
> 
> 
> "thumb lingering a beat or two before he slipped it free..."
> Wasn't sure about dropping it to "Sorrow's hammer". Hammering seems a more angry action. Might be a common metaphor or something I'm just not familiar with
> 
> 
> This struck me as odd. The concept of sweat being like maggots might benefit from a little more detail. It felt like a setup for the next sentence but as it's own idea, has me confused.
> 
> 
> "their claws...capable of more than..."
> 
> 
> I hope this gave helpful ideas and let you know how at least one random reader might see things as he goes through.


This is a difficult one to explain. The ambiguity and vague nature of Yarrod's existence is important to the overall structure and character development. We have a mysterious blank canvas on which his past will be written. He's the son of a Riftshifter, a race of people that freely move between different dimensions and time. He's lived endless lives and will live endless lives in the future. This cycle is going to be broken eventually during the story as we uncover who Yarrod is and why he's stuck in this cycle. 

This scene is the birth of Yarrod in this particular cycle. The desert is the metaphorical womb.  He never remembers where or when he is, only that he endures. Only pain reminds him he exists. At this point in his existance, Yarrod is nothing more than a zombie, going through a set imperative, and that imperative is to hunt and kill. A storm pursues him and the hunt is ahead. He's on a treadmill. The world turns about him. 

There are a few references here to cement the idea of him existing but not living, although he does snatch the occasional moment to prove to himself he's no ghost. I could spell everything out in the opener, but that would leave less to explore as the story progresses. Sorrow is his gun by the way. He drops his thumb to the hammer of his gun. Again, I could explain that but in keeping with the vagueness, I opted to keep that mysterious too. 

The maggots were originally insects but I liked the idea of Yarrod being a dead man ... a ghost.


----------



## gwell66

TheMightyAz said:


> This is a difficult one to explain. The ambiguity and vague nature of Yarrod's existence is important to the overall structure and character development. We have a mysterious blank canvas on which his past will be written. He's the son of a Riftshifter, a race of people that freely move between different dimensions and time. He's lived endless lives and will live endless lives in the future. This cycle is going to be broken eventually during the story as we uncover who Yarrod is and why he's stuck in this cycle.
> 
> This scene is the birth of Yarrod in this particular cycle. The desert is the metaphorical womb.  He never remembers where or when he is, only that he endures. Only pain reminds him he exists. At this point in his existance, Yarrod is nothing more than a zombie, going through a set imperative, and that imperative is to hunt and kill. A storm pursues him and the hunt is ahead. He's on a treadmill. The world turns about him.
> 
> There are a few references here to cement the idea of him existing but not living, although he does snatch the occasional moment to prove to himself he's no ghost. I could spell everything out in the opener, but that would leave less to explore as the story progresses. Sorrow is his gun by the way. He drops his thumb to the hammer of his gun. Again, I could explain that but in keeping with the vagueness, I opted to keep that mysterious too.
> 
> The maggots were originally insects but I liked the idea of Yarrod being a dead man ... a ghost.


Makes sense. A small amount of detail in key spots (His thoughts/feelings/sensations) would go a long way without giving away the mystery, I think. Plus it would connect us more to the character as we wait for the story and mystery to unfold. Something I totally blanked on was that this is, of course, a snippet. So context might cover some of these things before or after.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

gwell66 said:


> Makes sense. A small amount of detail in key spots (His thoughts/feelings/sensations) would go a long way without giving away the mystery, I think. Plus it would connect us more to the character as we wait for the story and mystery to unfold. Something I totally blanked on was that this is, of course, a snippet. So context might cover some of these things before or after.


That's why I only asked which starting paragraph felt like the best hook. I have posted a fuller version in the Writers Workshop section if you'd like to take a look at that. I wanted concrete actions, but framed within a mystery.


----------



## gwell66

TheMightyAz said:


> That's why I only asked which starting paragraph felt like the best hook. I have posted a fuller version in the Writers Workshop section if you'd like to take a look at that. I wanted concrete actions, but framed within a mystery.


As I was reading there were also the word choice issues and whatnot as well.  I didnt know you had posted more but if there's more then you at least know if it's addressed later or not. Or, even if it is addressed later, you might read some of my notes and go, "Ah, I could add some things here to strengthen this particular snippet"  I'll take a look at the fuller version too. Without seeing more, it made it a little tougher to pick the better opening. These questions and notes I had were part of my thought process as I decided


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

gwell66 said:


> As I was reading there were also the word choice issues and whatnot as well.  I didnt know you had posted more but if there's more then you at least know if it's addressed later or not. Or, even if it is addressed later, you might read some of my notes and go, "Ah, I could add some things here to strengthen this particular snippet"  I'll take a look at the fuller version too. Without seeing more, it made it a little tougher to pick the better opening. These questions and notes I had were part of my thought process as I decided


It's the opening. Reading more would change nothing. It's just a matter of which opening grabbed you more, the mysterious Yarrod or the red handkerchief.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> It's the opening. Reading more would change nothing. It's just a matter of which opening grabbed you more, the mysterious Yarrod or the red handkerchief.


for me the original opening works best. But that could be because i'm use to reading it in that sequence lol


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## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> for me the original opening works best. But that could be because i'm use it reading it that sequence lol


That's the problem isn't it. I've read it so many times I can't decide ... hence asking.  In all honesty though, as far as first sentences are concerned, neither feel like excellent opening lines. I'll be giving that some thought much later though.


----------



## gwell66

TheMightyAz said:


> It's the opening. Reading more would change nothing. It's just a matter of which opening grabbed you more, the mysterious Yarrod or the red handkerchief.


What I was getting at is that I ended up deleting my chapter 1 entirely multiple times and edited it significantly another couple dozen before getting to a version I thought fit best. I only got there bc of what came later. In that same vein, reading further might have adjusted some of my critiques. Your knowledge of what's next might have also framed how useful my critique is to you.

But based on how things unfold, it might have led me to prefer the handkerchief opening more. heck, it might have made me suggest coming up with a new one altogether.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

gwell66 said:


> What I was getting at is that I ended up deleting my chapter 1 entirely multiple times and edited it significantly another couple dozen before getting to a version I thought fit best. I only got there bc of what came later. In that same vein, reading further might have adjusted some of my critiques. Your knowledge of what's next might have also framed how useful my critique is to you.
> 
> But based on how things unfold, it might have led me to prefer the handkerchief opening more. heck, it might have made me suggest coming up with a new one altogether.


Got ya. That makes perfect sense.  I'll break the handkerchief scene down in more detail to see what you think. I'm currently watching a film!


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

gwell66 said:


> What I was getting at is that I ended up deleting my chapter 1 entirely multiple times and edited it significantly another couple dozen before getting to a version I thought fit best. I only got there bc of what came later. In that same vein, reading further might have adjusted some of my critiques. Your knowledge of what's next might have also framed how useful my critique is to you.
> 
> But based on how things unfold, it might have led me to prefer the handkerchief opening more. heck, it might have made me suggest coming up with a new one altogether.


Here's the breakdown of the handkerchief paragraph. First you'll need some context. Yarrod is the son of a riftshifter. These people freely move between dimensions and time. His mother isn't dead, although we're lead to believe she is. There are people from the riftshifter's realm that suspect she's still alive and hope Yarrod eventually finds her, leading them to her. Yarrod's mother sent the storm after him. It resets his cycle and he starts all over again. This is to protect both herself and Yarrod because she knows once he finds her, they'll kill the both of them. As long as he keeps cycling, they're both safe.

Now onto the paragraph.

The first sentence is a throwaway sentence, allowing me to describe a little of what he's wearing, introduce the handkerchief and show he's hot.

From his gold-inlay waistcoat pocket, he eased a red handkerchief and slid it across his brow. 

From here it gets more layered and symbolic. I establish it doesn't look special but for some reason he cherishes it. It's a gift from his mother many years ago when he was a child. Although he cannot remember because he's buried the memories deep, he senses it means something to him, which is why he can't let it go.

It was a simple piece of material, and yet he and it could never part. 

The next sentence is packed with symbolism and double meaning. 'Deep into his pocket'. This is symbolic of him burying the memory deep. 'thumb still touching a beat or two longer'. It's of the heart which is why I've used 'beat or two' for the pause. He reluctantly let go of the memory. 'slipped his thumb free and dropped it to Sorrow's hammer' Sorrow is his gun. All he now remembers is his imperative which is to hunt and kill.

He tucked it back, deep into the pocket, thumb still touching a beat or two longer before he slipped his thumb free and dropped it to Sorrow’s hammer.

But there's more. This single paragraph is the entire story of The Sixth Chamber (the sixth chamber being the chamber gunslingers used to leave empty because they never had any safety catches. It kept them safe) So, the mother hid within this realm 'the handkerchief' and sent a storm after Yarrod to reset him 'the memory buried deep'. He knows the handkerchief is significant and eventually it leads him into his adventure. I ended on hammer because I was thinking of anvil, making Sorrow something forged as well as the hammer of a gun. It's the sorrow of his mother and the sorrow he is yet to feel.

But there's one more thing: How can Yarrod stop the cycle and keep his mother safe? 'slipped his thumb free and dropped it to Sorrow's hammer'. Someone has to die ...


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Which reads better?

*1:*  Tangled, ebony hair hung limp about his collar, the fringe hacked, his hunting knife both barber and mirror.
*2:* Tangled, ebony hair hung limp about his collar, the fringe hacked, his hunting knife barber and mirror.


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## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> Which reads better?
> 
> *1:*  Tangled, ebony hair hung limp about his collar, the fringe hacked, his hunting knife both barber and mirror.
> *2:* Tangled, ebony hair hung limp about his collar, the fringe hacked, his hunting knife barber and mirror.


1:


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## KeganThompson

Past couple of days, I've been struggling to get my ideas down. I've been looking at some of my sentences like 
I thought posting a few sentences for critique could help me get motivated

Regret immediately *whipped* Sandra's face, but her pride didn’t dare allow an apology.
She rubbed her nose with the back of her hand. Less brash, she said, “Listen...I think you should go see somebody.” -idk if whipped works quite right.(but feel free to roast everything)
“Fine.”
*She grabbed the knob, the door let out a high pitched squeak, Sandra attempted to shut it but the door didn’t latch. *- I keep editing this sentence but ti always comes out awkward

 I was amazed at how much this kid could put away. Adrian was about five-nine, five-ten, average build, and thin. He had the I’m depressed, come and save me vibe girls seemed to like. I never understood the romanticization of that. There was nothing attractive about misery. - I used *was *more than I'd like. 

I have plenty more sentences but here are a couple for now


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Past couple of days, I've been struggling to get my ideas down. I've been looking at some of my sentences like
> I thought posting a few sentences for critique could help me get motivated
> 
> Regret immediately *whipped* Sandra's face, but her pride didn’t dare allow an apology.
> She rubbed her nose with the back of her hand. Less brash, she said, “Listen...I think you should go see somebody.” -idk if whipped works quite right.(but feel free to roast everything)
> “Fine.”
> *She grabbed the knob, the door let out a high pitched squeak, Sandra attempted to shut it but the door didn’t latch. *- I keep editing this sentence but ti always comes out awkward
> 
> I was amazed at how much this kid could put away. Adrian was about five-nine, five-ten, average build, and thin. He had the I’m depressed, come and save me vibe girls seemed to like. I never understood the romanticization of that. There was nothing attractive about misery. - I used *was *more than I'd like.
> 
> I have plenty more sentences but here are a couple for now


The fact you've highlighted 'whipped' shows you already know it's not the right word. Regret in this instance would be an expression. How it would manifest and what word to use to describe it succinctly is the problem. 'Washed' comes to mind. You don't need 'immediately' there though. The very fact the sentence follows immediately after the last shows immediacy. 

The second problem you have is to do with where you've put the camera. Ok, she's grabbing the knob so why is the door squeaking? Forget the knob and consider what action is causing the door to squeak. You may be trying to do too much with this sentence. Break it up into two. I'm still not certain what's going on there though. Is she opening the door and the squeak makes her want to close it immediately or is it already open and squeaks for some reason? 

How much this kid could put away amazed me. Adrian was about five-nine, five-ten, average build, and thin. He had the I’m depressed, come and save me vibe girls seemed to like. I never understood the romanticization of that. There was nothing attractive about misery. 

I can only sort one out without completely rewriting and rethinking the paragraph. Those 'was's don't strike me as excessive though. Sometimes they're fine to leave in.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> The fact you've highlighted 'whipped' shows you already know it's not the right word. Regret in this instance would be an expression. How it would manifest and what word to use to describe it succinctly is the problem. 'Washed' comes to mind. You don't need 'immediately' there though. The very fact the sentence follows immediately after the last shows immediacy.
> 
> The second problem you have is to do with where you've put the camera. Ok, she's grabbing the knob so why is the door squeaking? Forget the knob and consider what action is causing the door to squeak. You may be trying to do too much with this sentence. Break it up into two. I'm still not certain what's going on there though. Is she opening the door and the squeak makes her want to close it immediately or is it already open and squeaks for some reason?
> 
> How much this kid could put away amazed me. Adrian was about five-nine, five-ten, average build, and thin. He had the I’m depressed, come and save me vibe girls seemed to like. I never understood the romanticization of that. There was nothing attractive about misery.
> 
> I can only sort one out without completely rewriting and rethinking the paragraph. Those 'was's don't strike me as excessive though. Sometimes they're fine to leave in.


yeah I didnt feel like whipped is the right word
*
The second problem you have is to do with where you've put the camera. Ok, she's grabbing the knob so why is the door squeaking? Forget the knob and consider what action is causing the door to squeak. You may be trying to do too much with this sentence. Break it up into two. I'm still not certain what's going on there though. Is she opening the door and the squeak makes her want to close it immediately or is it already open and squeaks for some reason?*

it squeaks b/c shes closing it, I was describing the sound the doors makes when she pulls to close it. the ugly 'eeeek' lol. she grabs the door knob and goes to shut it. the door makes a loud squeak but she didnt shut it all the way-therefore it didnt latch. 
 i've messed with the sentences a lot cuz I used door too much and no matter how I tried to cut it up, it come off awkward. my orignal sentences probably made a bit more sense btw
 I didnt put in the full paragraph but i think its _confusing_ nontheless. also the "fine" was accidently copied and pasted. It has nothing to do with the two sentences. A lot of dialogue was cut out. 2 separate things


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> yeah I didnt feel like whipped is the right word
> 
> *The second problem you have is to do with where you've put the camera. Ok, she's grabbing the knob so why is the door squeaking? Forget the knob and consider what action is causing the door to squeak. You may be trying to do too much with this sentence. Break it up into two. I'm still not certain what's going on there though. Is she opening the door and the squeak makes her want to close it immediately or is it already open and squeaks for some reason?*
> 
> it squeaks b/c shes closing it, I was describing the sound the doors makes when she pulls to close it. the ugly 'eeeek' lol. she grabs the door knob and goes to shut it. the door makes a loud squeak but she didnt shut it all the way-therefore it didnt latch.
> i've messed with the sentences a lot cuz I used door too much and no matter how I tried to cut it up, it come off awkward. my orignal sentences probably made a bit more sense btw
> I didnt put in the full paragraph but i think its _confusing_ nontheless. also the "fine" was accidently copied and pasted. It has nothing to do with the two sentences. A lot of dialogue was cut out. 2 separate things



It's actually an interested one. I'm struggling to come up with a tight and clear way of describing it. So ... she goes to close the door and whilst she's closing it, it squeaks, making her think twice about closing it? First thing I'd do is remove the idea of it not being latched. It suggests it couldn't latch for some reason rather than her choosing not to latch it. So the focus should be on her closing the door but stopping because it squeaked. The grabbing the door handle and not latching is making it difficult to describe.

She began closing the door but a high pitched squeak made her pause and take a breath. Something along those lines.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> It's actually an interested one. I'm struggling to come up with a tight and clear way of describing it. So ... she goes to close the door and whilst she's closing it, it squeaks, making her think twice about closing it? First thing I'd do is remove the idea of it not being latched. It suggests it couldn't latch for some reason rather than her choosing not to latch it. So the focus should be on her closing the door but stopping because it squeaked. The grabbing the door handle and not latching is making it difficult to describe.
> 
> She began closing the door but a high pitched squeak made her pause and take a breath. Something along those lines.


the squeak has nothing to do with her not latching it. lol.  I just waned to describe the sound like how I heard it in my head, it has no importance haha. maybe I shouldve added other sentences around it for context but I went for a couple i'm struggling the most with. I might just rewrite he scene slightly cuz it doesnt seem to be quite working


She grabbed the knob, the door let out a high pitched squeak, Sandra attempted to shut it but the door didn’t latch. Ardian got out of his chair, swung it open and yelled down the hall. “Turn the down the AC, it’s fuckin’ freezing in here!”
He shut the door, making sure he heard a click before walking to his desk. He snatched the crumpled portrait and balled it up. In the bin it went.

now looking at it, i think I edited it to make it even more awkward and confusing to what I originally had it. But thats why I posted it because I was like ??? this aint coming out right

*She grabbed the knob, attempting to shut the door but the door didnt latch. *maybe just go with something like that and leave he whole squeaking thing out of it


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> the squeak has nothing to do with her not latching it. lol.  I just waned to describe the sound like how I heard it in my head, it has no importance haha. maybe I shouldve added other sentences around it for context but I went for a couple i'm struggling the most with. I might just rewrite he scene slightly cuz it doesnt seem to be quite working
> 
> 
> She grabbed the knob, the door let out a high pitched squeak, Sandra attempted to shut it but the door didn’t latch. Ardian got out of his chair, swung it open and yelled down the hall. “Turn the down the AC, it’s fuckin’ freezing in here!”
> He shut the door, making sure he heard a click before walking to his desk. He snatched the crumpled portrait and balled it up. In the bin it went.
> 
> now looking at it, i think I edited it to make it even more awkward and confusing to what I originally had it. But thats why I posted it because I was like ??? this aint coming out right
> 
> *She grabbed the knob, attempting to shut the door but the door didnt latch. *maybe just go with something like that and leave he whole squeaking thing out of it


So the squeak is of no importance? Blummin' Nora. With you mentioning a squeak, the immediate thought is it may warn someone of her presence, making the squeak THE most important element in that sentence. I'd just have her trying to close the door but it wouldn't latch. The latch is broken I'm assuming ...


----------



## KeganThompson

nope, the latch isnt broken. Maybe latch isnt the right word? you know when parents go to close the door and they dont close it all the way and its aggravating? no? thats the vibe on going for. she goes to shut it but it doesnt shut all the way. maybe you thought too much of this scene 
maybe I can focus on his reaction to the fact it doesnt latch to give a better impression of what I was going for but I wasnt trying to be melodramatic...though kids are pretty good at that.


----------



## gwell66

TheMightyAz said:


> Here's the breakdown of the handkerchief paragraph. First you'll need some context. Yarrod is the son of a riftshifter. These people freely move between dimensions and time. His mother isn't dead, although we're lead to believe she is. There are people from the riftshifter's realm that suspect she's still alive and hope Yarrod eventually finds her, leading them to her. Yarrod's mother sent the storm after him. It resets his cycle and he starts all over again. This is to protect both herself and Yarrod because she knows once he finds her, they'll kill the both of them. As long as he keeps cycling, they're both safe.
> 
> Now onto the paragraph.
> 
> The first sentence is a throwaway sentence, allowing me to describe a little of what he's wearing, introduce the handkerchief and show he's hot.
> 
> From his gold-inlay waistcoat pocket, he eased a red handkerchief and slid it across his brow.
> 
> From here it gets more layered and symbolic. I establish it doesn't look special but for some reason he cherishes it. It's a gift from his mother many years ago when he was a child. Although he cannot remember because he's buried the memories deep, he senses it means something to him, which is why he can't let it go.
> 
> It was a simple piece of material, and yet he and it could never part.
> 
> The next sentence is packed with symbolism and double meaning. 'Deep into his pocket'. This is symbolic of him burying the memory deep. 'thumb still touching a beat or two longer'. It's of the heart which is why I've used 'beat or two' for the pause. He reluctantly let go of the memory. 'slipped his thumb free and dropped it to Sorrow's hammer' Sorrow is his gun. All he now remembers is his imperative which is to hunt and kill.
> 
> He tucked it back, deep into the pocket, thumb still touching a beat or two longer before he slipped his thumb free and dropped it to Sorrow’s hammer.
> 
> But there's more. This single paragraph is the entire story of The Sixth Chamber (the sixth chamber being the chamber gunslingers used to leave empty because they never had any safety catches. It kept them safe) So, the mother hid within this realm 'the handkerchief' and sent a storm after Yarrod to reset him 'the memory buried deep'. He knows the handkerchief is significant and eventually it leads him into his adventure. I ended on hammer because I was thinking of anvil, making Sorrow something forged as well as the hammer of a gun. It's the sorrow of his mother and the sorrow he is yet to feel.
> 
> But there's one more thing: How can Yarrod stop the cycle and keep his mother safe? 'slipped his thumb free and dropped it to Sorrow's hammer'. Someone has to die ...


Based on how important this handkerchief is and based on the way that paragraph acts like the "winchester" breakdown in Shaun of the Dead, it's pretty neat.

The reader doesn't know who/what Sorrow is. I thought maybe it was in reference to some deity maybe. So something to clarify might be worth considering.

 If more struggle were put into the shifting desert opening, that works better in my mind. Shifting sands, uneven footing, each step a struggle with no knowledge of where the end is. (or not knowing just how long he has walked. I think that's what this opening was trying to imply unless I'm mistaken)

That said, I'm still not connecting with the notion he has no clue where he's going or where he started walking from.

I think it's important to  have a sense of time. Either how long he's been walking. Or how long he remembers walking and at least provide hints of that to the reader.  The way it's currently written , it's like he prepared for a trip and has memory of things like name's and equipment. He has this bird, too. Yet it's also written as if he just "re-spawned" in the desert within a day and has no clue how he got there or where he's heading or if he's been walking for five minutes, 1 hour or 3 days. For me it just detracted from things.

You dont necessarily have to reveal every answer but it would be good to imply certain things to help the reader understand that this guy didn't just forget that he left one town a few days ago.

And the bird scouts out the town but this makes it sound like it's the first time they've done so. So it left me wondering why the bird hadn't scouted before and how they knew to walk in this direction. Reframing this part as more of a "We STILL have that far to go?" would help make it more clear they've already been walking with a purpose. Little lines here and there would tighten some of these things up.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

gwell66 said:


> Based on how important this handkerchief is and based on the way that paragraph acts like the "winchester" breakdown in Shaun of the Dead, it's pretty neat.
> 
> The reader doesn't know who/what Sorrow is. I thought maybe it was in reference to some deity maybe. So something to clarify might be worth considering.
> 
> If more struggle were put into the shifting desert opening, that works better in my mind. Shifting sands, uneven footing, each step a struggle with no knowledge of where the end is. (or not knowing just how long he has walked. I think that's what this opening was trying to imply unless I'm mistaken)
> 
> That said, I'm still not connecting with the notion he has no clue where he's going or where he started walking from.
> 
> I think it's important to  have a sense of time. Either how long he's been walking. Or how long he remembers walking and at least provide hints of that to the reader.  The way it's currently written , it's like he prepared for a trip and has memory of things like name's and equipment. He has this bird, too. Yet it's also written as if he just "re-spawned" in the desert within a day and has no clue how he got there or where he's heading or if he's been walking for five minutes, 1 hour or 3 days. For me it just detracted from things.
> 
> You dont necessarily have to reveal every answer but it would be good to imply certain things to help the reader understand that this guy didn't just forget that he left one town a few days ago.
> 
> And the bird scouts out the town but this makes it sound like it's the first time they've done so. So it left me wondering why the bird hadn't scouted before and how they knew to walk in this direction. Reframing this part as more of a "We STILL have that far to go?" would help make it more clear they've already been walking with a purpose. Little lines here and there would tighten some of these things up.


Yarrod has appeared out of a rift. He doesn't know that and just keeps on cycling. The storm that pursues him is the thing that resets the timeline and starts him all over again. He's trying to outrun it, meaning, each time he successfully outruns it, his memories become clearer. All he knows is he's got a handkerchief that means something for some reason. He has a companion named Stitch. He must hunt and kill. He has had many many memories but each time he's gathered them, the reset happened. In this story he manages to keep ahead of the storm and begins forming deeper more permanent memories, piecing together the story of his mother, his race, what he is and who he is. 

The finer details are something I need to work out when I've got further into the story. Then I can retroactively adjust. He's lead to his mother by coincidence (fate). As he passes through this particular cycle, he meets characters that for one reason or another add to the bigger picture. For instance, because he's got the name Annabel in his head, he's drawn to a saloon where one of the whores is called Annabel. Of course it's a common name but it's lead him to her. She then asks for his help in rescuing other women who have been kidnapped. This leads to yet another connection ... and so forth. 

The themes are Love, Fate and Moral ambiguity.


----------



## gwell66

TheMightyAz said:


> Yarrod has appeared out of a rift. He doesn't know that and just keeps on cycling. The storm that pursues him is the thing that resets the timeline and starts him all over again. He's trying to outrun it, meaning, each time he successfully outruns it, his memories become clearer. All he knows is he's got a handkerchief that means something for some reason. He has a companion named Stitch. He must hunt and kill. He has had many many memories but each time he's gathered them, the reset happened. In this story he manages to keep ahead of the storm and begins forming deeper more permanent memories, piecing together the story of his mother, his race, what he is and who he is.
> 
> The finer details are something I need to work out when I've got further into the story. Then I can retroactively adjust. He's lead to his mother by coincidence (fate). As he passes through this particular cycle, he meets characters that for one reason or another add to the bigger picture. For instance, because he's got the name Annabel in his head, he's drawn to a saloon where one of the whores is called Annabel. Of course it's a common name but it's lead him to her. She then asks for his help in rescuing other women who have been kidnapped. This leads to yet another connection ... and so forth.
> 
> The themes are Love, Fate and Moral ambiguity.


Yea, some of those finer details will be good to put in but that can definitely be addressed after more has been taken care of. Whenever you do come back to this, the things I'm left wondering are...

At the point where we start, has he been walking/does he have memory for the last 5 minutes, 1 hour or more?

Optional thing: Did the rift dump him on his face unceremoniously or did he walk calmly out into this desert? Him being forced through a chaotic rift and maybe having his memories ripped away as he tries desperately to retain them would be an intense opening. Then maybe he has flashes of memory.

Everything I say is optional but I made it a point to say this is optional because that might not be accurate to how the rift process works. It just popped into my head though so I figured I'd offer it up


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

gwell66 said:


> Yea, some of those finer details will be good to put in but that can definitely be addressed after more has been taken care of. Whenever you do come back to this, the things I'm left wondering are...
> 
> At the point where we start, has he been walking/does he have memory for the last 5 minutes, 1 hour or more?
> 
> Optional thing: Did the rift dump him on his face unceremoniously or did he walk calmly out into this desert? Him being forced through a chaotic rift and maybe having his memories ripped away as he tries desperately to retain them would be an intense opening. Then maybe he has flashes of memory.
> 
> Everything I say is optional but I made it a point to say this is optional because that might not be accurate to how the rift process works. It just popped into my head though so I figured I'd offer it up


Could you take this conversation to my The Sixth Chamber thread in the Workshop section. I don't want to derail this thread with broader conversations about a piece of work. It's meant to be for craft help only. Hope you don't mind


----------



## Benjamin Button

Here’s a snippet on something I’m working on in the forums. Been trying to find the right wording to include a couple stars in the sky lol. Should be simple but I keep going round circles on it. Here’s what I just tried.

Underneath the last, lingering slice of moon, Leon floated on his back in his in-ground pool. The couple stars in the morning light, now completely dwindled. On the other side of him, the sun peeked through the palm trees. At the birds’ first chirping, he laid eyes on leaves in the pool. Together, they formed words of warning. “This time don’t forget.”


----------



## gwell66

TheMightyAz said:


> Could you take this conversation to my The Sixth Chamber thread in the Workshop section. I don't want to derail this thread with broader conversations about a piece of work. It's meant to be for craft help only. Hope you don't mind


No prob! I think that was all I had to say on that opening snippet anyway.


----------



## gwell66

Benjamin Button said:


> Here’s a snippet on something I’m working on in the forums. Been trying to find the right wording to include a couple stars in the sky lol. Should be simple but I keep going round circles on it. Here’s what I just tried.
> 
> Underneath the last, lingering slice of moon, Leon floated on his back in his in-ground pool. The couple stars in the morning light, now completely dwindled. On the other side of him, the sun peeked through the palm trees. At the birds’ first chirping, he laid eyes on leaves in the pool. Together, they formed words of warning. “This time don’t forget.”


Maybe

1 On one side, the last traces of starlight dwindled.

2 The last stars he could see in the morning light, dwindled.

Instead of "On the other side", could it be "Along the horizon"?


----------



## gwell66

KeganThompson said:


> Past couple of days, I've been struggling to get my ideas down. I've been looking at some of my sentences like
> I thought posting a few sentences for critique could help me get motivated
> 
> Regret immediately *whipped* Sandra's face, but her pride didn’t dare allow an apology.
> She rubbed her nose with the back of her hand. Less brash, she said, “Listen...I think you should go see somebody.” -idk if whipped works quite right.(but feel free to roast everything)
> “Fine.”
> *She grabbed the knob, the door let out a high pitched squeak, Sandra attempted to shut it but the door didn’t latch. *- I keep editing this sentence but ti always comes out awkward
> 
> I was amazed at how much this kid could put away. Adrian was about five-nine, five-ten, average build, and thin. He had the I’m depressed, come and save me vibe girls seemed to like. I never understood the romanticization of that. There was nothing attractive about misery. - I used *was *more than I'd like.
> 
> I have plenty more sentences but here are a couple for now


The door sentence has a few things going on:

Grabbing
Squeaking
Shutting
Wont latch

I feel like this sentence is maybe going for mood.

A few things to consider:
What's the mood of the character's and the scene? What does this sentence contribute to it?
What's happening and how does this sentence contribute to it?

Then think about all 4 of those things I listed. What do THEY contribute to the mood and the situation? Can they be adjusted to contribute more? Could they be removed without affecting anything?

I have a feeling that if you adjust these to contribute to the mood of the scene or characters, then you might naturally figure out a way to re-write this and have it feel like it fits better.

On the surface, I'd say "Sandra attempted..." is a separate sentence.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Benjamin Button said:


> Here’s a snippet on something I’m working on in the forums. Been trying to find the right wording to include a couple stars in the sky lol. Should be simple but I keep going round circles on it. Here’s what I just tried.
> 
> Underneath the last, lingering slice of moon, Leon floated on his back in his in-ground pool. The couple stars in the morning light, now completely dwindled. On the other side of him, the sun peeked through the palm trees. At the birds’ first chirping, he laid eyes on leaves in the pool. Together, they formed words of warning. “This time don’t forget.”


Leon floated on his back in his in-ground pool and stared at the last lingering slice of the moon. Stars winked out as the sun peeked through palm trees and birds sang in celebration of another day dawned. Leaves upon the water's surface, picked out in gold, formed words of warning: 'This time, don't forget.'


----------



## KeganThompson

gwell66 said:


> The door sentence has a few things going on:
> 
> Grabbing
> Squeaking
> Shutting
> Wont latch
> 
> I feel like this sentence is maybe going for mood.
> 
> A few things to consider:
> What's the mood of the character's and the scene? What does this sentence contribute to it?
> What's happening and how does this sentence contribute to it?
> 
> Then think about all 4 of those things I listed. What do THEY contribute to the mood and the situation? Can they be adjusted to contribute more? Could they be removed without affecting anything?
> 
> I have a feeling that if you adjust these to contribute to the mood of the scene or characters, then you might naturally figure out a way to re-write this and have it feel like it fits better.
> 
> On the surface, I'd say "Sandra attempted..." is a separate sentence.


honestly it was a cluster of confusion and plain awkward. lol I've been working on being more descriptive but I dont think the extra "fluff" is needed here so I trimmed it down to  *Sandra* *attempted to shut the door but it didn’t latch. *for now.


----------



## JBF

Benjamin Button said:


> Here’s a snippet on something I’m working on in the forums. Been trying to find the right wording to include a couple stars in the sky lol. Should be simple but I keep going round circles on it. Here’s what I just tried.
> 
> Underneath the last, lingering slice of moon, Leon floated on his back in his in-ground pool. The couple stars in the morning light, now completely dwindled. On the other side of him, the sun peeked through the palm trees. At the birds’ first chirping, he laid eyes on leaves in the pool. Together, they formed words of warning. “This time don’t forget.”



How I'd do it: 

Leon floated on his back in his in-ground pool underneath the last lingering slice of moon, dwindling stars fading in the morning light.  On the other side the sun peeked through the palm trees, and at the birds' first chirping he laid eyes on leaves in the pool.  They formed words of warning.  

_This time don't forget.  

***_

Not sure if that's of any use.  If not, disregard.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> honestly it was a cluster of confusion and plain awkward. lol I've been working on being more descriptive but I dont think the extra "fluff" is needed here so I trimmed it down to  *Sandra* *attempted to shut the door but it didn’t latch. *for now.


So the latch WAS broken?  'Sandra pulled the door to but left it ajar.'


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> So the latch WAS broken?  'Sandra pulled the door too but left it ajar.'


That might work better yeah. Idk if "latch" is the word I'm looking for.  Basically the door lock..
 the part of  door that goes in the the hole of the frame...connected to the door knob...that part


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> That might work better yeah. Idk if "latch" is the word I'm looking for.  Basically the door lock..
> the part of  door that goes in the the hole of the frame...connected to the door knob...that part


The problem is, you're telling the reader what wasn't used. 'It didn't latch' so therefore it was 'ajar'.


----------



## JBF

Apologies.  I'm waaaay late to this party.  Been meaning to get back for a couple of days, but...work stuff.  



KeganThompson said:


> Regret immediately *whipped* Sandra's face, but her pride didn’t dare allow an apology.



Odd choice.  Something liked 'colored' or 'twisted' or 'tightened' might serve better, though out of context that's just a spitballing guess.  Maybe have the regret tangling with said pride that wouldn't allow any apology.  




KeganThompson said:


> *She grabbed the knob, the door let out a high pitched squeak, Sandra attempted to shut it but the door didn’t latch. *- I keep editing this sentence but ti always comes out awkward



I get what you're going for.  You're right, though - this sentence is tripping over its own feet.  From here I'd venture you have two options - you could pare this down hard or split it into two sentences.  I'm not sure whether the screech should be come from the handle/knob/locking mechanism or the hinges.  
_
The knob screeched as she twisted, leaning against the wooden panels and listening for the click of the latch, but only hearing the door bump loosely in the frame.  
_



KeganThompson said:


> I was amazed at how much this kid could put away. Adrian *stood *about five-nine, five-ten, average build, and thin. He had the I’m depressed, come and save me vibe girls seemed to like. I never understood the romanticization of that. There was nothing attractive about misery.



Unless it's brutally over-utilized for extended periods, 'was' is considering a disappearing word.  I don't think you have much to worry about here...though if you do, you can usually find something to swap in without breaking the mechnicals too much.


----------



## KeganThompson

JBF said:


> Apologies.  I'm waaaay late to this party.  Been meaning to get back for a couple of days, but...work stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> Odd choice.  Something liked 'colored' or 'twisted' or 'tightened' might serve better, though out of context that's just a spitballing guess.  Maybe have the regret tangling with said pride that wouldn't allow any apology.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I get what you're going for.  You're right, though - this sentence is tripping over its own feet.  From here I'd venture you have two options - you could pare this down hard or split it into two sentences.  I'm not sure whether the screech should be come from the handle/knob/locking mechanism or the hinges.
> 
> _The knob screeched as she twisted, leaning against the wooden panels and listening for the click of the latch, but only hearing the door bump loosely in the frame.  _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unless it's brutally over-utilized for extended periods, 'was' is considering a disappearing word.  I don't think you have much to worry about here...though if you do, you can usually find something to swap in without breaking the mechnicals too much.


Yep whipped is an odd choice. That's why I highlighted it (and left a note in my Google docs) I try to play with words to see what works and what doesn't work. But I wasn't fully feeling it was working. That's what I posted it. I changed it to "washed" but if I wanted to use a less common word/expression your suggestions are a more unique way of putting it so I will take that into consideration when playing with words/ sentences

I cut back the whole sentence.and simplified it. But still working on it. I was thinking about focusing on the characters reaction to the door not closing all the way instead.

Okay. It sounded ok but I am trying to not overuse the word. I was making sure wasn't too much. Find a good balanc and al' dat.

I was thinking about posting what I have so far just to see uh, how bad it is  it's at 1800 words but I can see the short story being close to 4000 ?I also like to keep things "open" enough to expand on the idea if I wanted but "closed" enough for it to be a stand alone short. I have a lot of ideas so its a bit of a struggle finding a good medium for the ending.
I have gotten a lot of crafting advice but I haven't posted enough of a premise to get pacing/story advice.
Think I should post my wip or wait until it's done...?
I was post the completed version either way


----------



## JBF

KeganThompson said:


> Think I should post my wip or wait until it's done...?
> I was post the completed version either way



Worst case, you might save some rewrites and edits later.  Easier to modify before things are set in stone and all that.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Yep whipped is an odd choice. That's why I highlighted it (and left a note in my Google docs) I try to play with words to see what works and what doesn't work. But I wasn't fully feeling it was working. That's what I posted it. I changed it to "washed" but if I wanted to use a less common word/expression your suggestions are a more unique way of putting it so I will take that into consideration when playing with words/ sentences
> 
> I cut back the whole sentence.and simplified it. But still working on it. I was thinking about focusing on the characters reaction to the door not closing all the way instead.
> 
> Okay. It sounded ok but I am trying to not overuse the word. I was making sure wasn't too much. Find a good balanc and al' dat.
> 
> I was thinking about posting what I have so far just to see uh, how bad it is  it's at 1800 words but I can see the short story being close to 4000 ?I also like to keep things "open" enough to expand on the idea if I wanted but "closed" enough for it to be a stand alone short. I have a lot of ideas so its a bit of a struggle finding a good medium for the ending.
> I have gotten a lot of crafting advice but I haven't posted enough of a premise to get pacing/story advice.
> Think I should post my wip or wait until it's done...?
> I was post the completed version either way


If it's a large enough slice to have your broader concerns examined, then post it in the Workshop area.


----------



## KeganThompson

JBF said:


> Worst case, you might save some rewrites and edits later.  Easier to modify before things are set in stone and all that.


Ok you recommend me to post my wip in the work shop? I was thinking of separating into parts to make it easier since it's a bit long. Submit each section for some help and then pull it all together later...?
Well nothing is ever "set in stone" unless it's published right? (Officially)


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> If it's a large enough slice to have your broader concerns examined, then post it in the Workshop area.


Ok once I get my first part ( a good stoping point) done I will post it


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Ok once I get my first part ( a good stoping point) done I will post it


Are you referring to the piece you've posted in the Workshop area? If so, halt that hand. It's got everything it needs already for a good piece of flash fiction. Use it to hone even more.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

I often use an adjective to remove the repeat of 'his'. It's finding that balance but I wondered how intrusive those adjectives are? Having read and listened to many published authors, it seems perhaps I worry too much about both repeating 'his' and having too many adjectives. Here's an example and I feel it reads ok. My question is though, is the technique I use for getting rid of 'his' repeats too transparent? I also had two 'like's in the one paragraph and changed the second to 'as if'. Again, does that jump out as a way of removing repetition? Just for context, he has a red handkerchief in his pocket:

Yarrod prized his left eye open, his other buried in the sand, mouth gaping and gasping like a banked fish. As the world disentangled before him, he found himself staring into the two dry caves of the steer, its one unbroken horn rising from it as if a talon searching out the meat. At its tip, a piece of red material, wriggling, fluttering.

Yarrod pulled his face from the sand and coughed dust, both eyes now fixed on the steer and its unfathomable catch. He placed his palms on the sandstone at his back and levered himself to unsteady feet, the after image of the dream still battling  a foggy mind.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> Are you referring to the piece you've posted in the Workshop area? If so, halt that hand. It's got everything it needs already for a good piece of flash fiction. Use it to hone even more.


Yeah I didn't expect to post it so soon. But I will work on it some more. I don't think I'm going to make it as long as I was originally thinking. I will work with what I got and expand on it slightly more. As I've said I always have a lot of ideas so I need to learn when to stop haha


----------



## Ajoy

TheMightyAz said:


> I often use an adjective to remove the repeat of 'his'. It's finding that balance but I wondered how intrusive those adjectives are? Having read and listened to many published authors, it seems perhaps I worry too much about both repeating 'his' and having too many adjectives. Here's an example and I feel it reads ok. My question is though, is the technique I use for getting rid of 'his' repeats too transparent? I also had two 'like's in the one paragraph and changed the second to 'as if'. Again, does that jump out as a way of removing repetition? Just for context, he has a red handkerchief in his pocket:
> 
> Yarrod prized his left eye open, his other buried in the sand, mouth gaping and gasping like a banked fish. As the world disentangled before him, he found himself staring into the two dry caves of the steer, its one unbroken horn rising from it as if a talon searching out the meat. At its tip, a piece of red material, wriggling, fluttering.
> 
> Yarrod pulled his face from the sand and coughed dust, both eyes now fixed on the steer and its unfathomable catch. He placed his palms on the sandstone at his back and levered himself to unsteady feet, the after image of the dream still battling  a foggy mind.


I feel like unsteady works for sure. I'm not sure about 'a foggy'. In one sense, I appreciate the image the extra descriptor provides, but it also starts to make the sentence feel a bit heavy. A lot is happening in this one sentence, and the extra adjective just gives one more thing to balance thinking about. But then again, when it comes down to it, the sentence is clear and understandable and seems to mesh with the tone you are going for. 

I was just noting a sentence in a published book I was reading that used the word 'his' four or five times--and I remember thinking I should maybe worry about those repeats slightly less.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Ajoy said:


> I feel like unsteady works for sure. I'm not sure about 'a foggy'. In one sense, I appreciate the image the extra descriptor provides, but it also starts to make the sentence feel a bit heavy. A lot is happening in this one sentence, and the extra adjective just gives one more thing to balance thinking about. But then again, when it comes down to it, the sentence is clear and understandable and seems to mesh with the tone you are going for.
> 
> I was just noting a sentence in a published book I was reading that used the word 'his' four or five times--and I remember thinking I should maybe worry about those repeats slightly less.


Cheers for this. I've made a couple of adjustment because of my worries and kinda like where it's taken me:

Yarrod prized his left eye open, his other buried in the sand, mouth gaping and gasping like a banked fish. As the world disentangled, he found himself staring into the two dry caves of the steer, its one unbroken horn rising from it as if a talon searching out its prey. At its tip, a piece of red material, wriggling, fluttering.

Yarrod pulled his face from the sand and coughed dust, both eyes now fixed on the steer and its unfathomable catch. He placed his palms on the sandstone at his back and levered himself up, the vestige of the dream still battling a foggy mind. How could this be? He’d secured the handkerchief as always, and yet, there it was, signalling its escape.


----------



## KeganThompson

been going through, picking out some sentences and working on fleshing out my short without expanding it too much. Here is just a couple I am curious about. still beefing things up, so I will post a bit more once my concept is more well-rounded Just wanted to get the ball rolling.

I hovered my finger over a stray lock of brunette hair on his temple, *careful not to touch.  *I added this because originally MC said "cmon I'm not even touching you." to “*C’mon, you get cold too easily.”* Because I wanted to make a point that she doesn't touch him or anyone. Wanted to make sure it works better


 Sandra attempted to shut the door but it creaked back, leaving it ajar. -I feel like "leaving it ajar" is still a bit awkward tho I made it much more simple than before.

He lit his joint and blew the cloud out the window. Grey smoke dissipated into the august sunset, the smell was unsavory.
I smoked pot once. A bowl was passed around at a bonfire I went to sophomore year of high school. Curiosity got the better of me and I took a hit. The inhale burned my pipe, lungs and made me cough uncontrollably. *It was the first and last hit I ever took*.- this sentence is okay but I don't know if there is a better way to put it
 Adrian on the other hand *sucked it down no problem*. I think he had been smoking since early high school, if not middle school.
 -the sentence has the vibe I'm going for but a bit odd. should I said sucked it down* with *no problem?


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> been going through, picking out some sentences and working on fleshing out my short without expanding it too much. Here is just a couple I am curious about. still beefing things up, so I will post a bit more once my concept is more well-rounded Just wanted to get the ball rolling.
> 
> I hovered my finger over a stray lock of brunette hair on his temple, *careful not to touch. *I added this because originally MC said "cmon I'm



Careful not to touch what? I'd be straightforward here: 'taking care not to touch his face.' But because you've got the MC saying 'cmon I'm not even touching you', I'd lose it altogether. 



KeganThompson said:


> not even touching you." to “*C’mon, you get cold too easily.”* Because I wanted to make a point that she doesn't touch him or anyone. Wanted to make sure it works better



I think you're original approach was better. I'd let that simple line of dialogue suggest what you want. Keep the revelation on the back boiler at this point. It's easy to see where you're going and then think you have to telegraph/foreshadow it. You don't in this instance. 



KeganThompson said:


> Sandra attempted to shut the door but it creaked back, leaving it ajar. -I feel like "leaving it ajar" is still a bit awkward tho I made it much more simple than before.



'Pulled the door too' would be better than 'attempted to close'. I see why you've done this but it's similar to the above. Foreshadowing doesn't have to be so obvious. 'Sarah pulled the door to but it creaked open a fraction.' I know I used the word 'ajar' in my previous example but that was just to try and make the original sentence tighter and more to the point. Now I know the creak is important, the focus should be there. 



KeganThompson said:


> He lit his joint and blew the cloud out the window. Grey smoke dissipated into the august sunset, the smell was unsavory.



Just how far did he blow that smoke? *'Grey blew smoke into the August air.'* I'm not sure about 'unsavoury' as a way of describing the smell of a joint. I love the smell myself. But if the focus is on him blowing it out into the August air, then the smell wouldn't be out there, it would be inside. He could wave away any smoke that didn't quite leave the room. I'd go for a positive smell rather than a negative one though. 



KeganThompson said:


> I smoked pot once. A bowl was passed around at a bonfire I went to sophomore year of high school. Curiosity got the better of me and I took a hit. The inhale burned my pipe, lungs and made me cough uncontrollably. *It was the first and last hit I ever took*.- this sentence is okay but I don't know if there is a better way to put it



Nope, that's a perfectly good sentence. I'd not worry about it. 



KeganThompson said:


> Adrian on the other hand *sucked it down no problem*. I think he had been smoking since early high school, if not middle school.
> -the sentence has the vibe I'm going for but a bit odd. should I said sucked it down* with *no problem?



'toked' would be a good word to use there. Rethink the sentence a bit.


----------



## KeganThompson

Careful not to touch what? I'd be straightforward here: 'taking care not to touch his face.' But because you've got the MC saying 'cmon I'm not even touching you', I'd lose it altogether.



> KeganThompson said:
> not even touching you." to “*C’mon, you get cold too easily.”* Because I wanted to make a point that she doesn't touch him or anyone. Wanted to make sure it works better



*I think you're original approach was better. I'd let that simple line of dialogue suggest what you want. Keep the revelation on the back boiler at this point. It's easy to see where you're going and then think you have to telegraph/foreshadow it. You don't in this instance.
'cmon I'm not even touching you', I'd lose it altogether.*
I am trying to foreshadow and want to make it a point that she doesn't touch anyone. I plan to bring it up again when I add a bit more to the story. so, personally you think I need to be more direct in the fact she doesn't touch people? its a thing I want to note prior to the ending.

*Grey smoke dissipated into the august sunset, *this was an add on and my attempt to describe the time of day and year. lol-looks like its not quite working. Hes blowing it outside but I know you would still be able to smell it regardless. I personally dont mind the smell, and I have smoked myself. But this isnt about how I feel. Its about the character. I am using the marijuana as a device to contrast their interests and personalities. thats why i wrote- *I smoked pot once. A bowl was passed around at a bonfire I went to sophomore year of high school. Curiosity got the better of me and I took a hit. The inhale burned my pipe, lungs and made me cough uncontrollably. It was the first and last hit I ever took.*
I dont know if that helps justify my word choice

honestly I'm not trying to foreshadow anything with the door. the door isnt important, just playing with small details 

*toked *thats a new word to add to my vocab lol

btw: I saw your newest post. sorry I didnt have any any advice to give. Do you think you figured out how you wanna go about it? I dont write in 3rd person at all...
(looked like there was a lot of good advic)


----------



## Matchu

Hi @Kegan

-  _I hovered my finger over a stray lock of brunette hair on his temple, *careful not to touch. *I added this because originally MC said "cmon I'm not even touching you." to “*C’mon, you get cold too easily.”* Because I wanted to make a point that she doesn't touch him or anyone. Wanted to make sure it works better_

...

so - we don't 'hover fingers.'

My finger hovered

The argument here is to write only - _my finger hovered over a lock of hair on his temple_ - all the excessive micro-direction, the adjectives & adverbs [and the rest], being the enemy of sight & perception.  As in the more you tell me about a scene - the less my mind's eye perceives the scene.  I'd also suggest a bolder approach where you say nothing about your caution but find a way for me think:  'he is being cautious.'

That is one of the pleasures of reading.

The second clip involves smoking.  You'll always get a snipe or two about a 'smoking scene' because they are so received and venerated - equally [yawn]

- _He lit his joint and blew the cloud out the window. Grey smoke dissipated into the august sunset, the smell was unsavory._

That's not the best couple of sentences.  Telling me smoke is grey is a bit of a faff, eh?   The second sentence, with respect, is a waste of time.

'_unsavoury_' works if that is the guy's perspective....only.

And then this entire anecdote below requires elevation and paint.  It reads like the kind of thing a police recruit might say at his job interview.  And you know that.  It requires re-writing with a greater feel for your/or for any sense of 'abandon.'  OR twist the 'nerdery,' for want of a better word, exaggerate _that_ element.

_- I smoked pot once. A bowl was passed around at a bonfire I went to sophomore year of high school. Curiosity got the better of me and I took a hit. The inhale burned my pipe, lungs and made me cough uncontrollably. *It was the first and last hit I ever took*.- this sentence is okay but I don't know if there is a better way to put it
Adrian on the other hand *sucked it down no problem*. I think he had been smoking since early high school, if not middle school.
-the sentence has the vibe I'm going for but a bit odd. should I said sucked it down* with *no problem?_

All best


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Careful not to touch what? I'd be straightforward here: 'taking care not to touch his face.' But because you've got the MC saying 'cmon I'm not even touching you', I'd lose it altogether.
> 
> 
> 
> *I think you're original approach was better. I'd let that simple line of dialogue suggest what you want. Keep the revelation on the back boiler at this point. It's easy to see where you're going and then think you have to telegraph/foreshadow it. You don't in this instance.
> 'cmon I'm not even touching you', I'd lose it altogether.*
> I am trying to foreshadow and want to make it a point that she doesn't touch anyone. I plan to bring it up again when I add a bit more to the story. so, personally you think I need to be more direct in the fact she doesn't touch people? it a thing I want to note prior to the ending.
> 
> *Grey smoke dissipated into the august sunset, *this was an add on and my attempt to describe the time of day and also year. lol-looks like its not quite working. Hes blowing it outside but I know you would still be able to smell it regardless. I personally dont mind the smell, and I have smoked myself. But this isnt about how I feel. Its about the character. I am using the marijuana as a device to contrast their interests and personalities. thats why i wrote- *I smoked pot once. A bowl was passed around at a bonfire I went to sophomore year of high school. Curiosity got the better of me and I took a hit. The inhale burned my pipe, lungs and made me cough uncontrollably. It was the first and last hit I ever took.*
> I dont know if that helps justify my word choice
> 
> honestly I'm not trying to foreshadow anything with the door. the door isnt important, just playing with small details
> 
> *toked *thats a new word to add to my vocab lol
> 
> btw: I saw your newest post. sorry I didnt have any any advice to give. Do you think you figured out how you wanna go about it? I dont write in 3rd person at all...
> (looked like there was a lot of good adive)


A door creaking with nobody there is a staple of a ghost story. You do not mention she didn't touch anyone. You describe situations in which touch would be a natural fit but don't mention anything about touching. 'come on, I didn't even touch you' is far more natural than describing she didn't touch him. Why is this writer telling us what she didn't do? Must be a clue ...


----------



## KeganThompson

*so - we don't 'hover fingers.'

My finger hovered*
Good point. sounds cleaner

*That's not the best couple of sentences, mmm. Telling me smoke is grey is a bit a faff, eh? The second sentence, with respect, is a waste of time.*
Fair enough   the second sentence was an add on. I wanted to flesh out the descriptions more and wanted to insert a time of day/ year. I agree that its not the best way to insert it.

*'unsavoury' works if that is the guy's perspective....only. *Yes I'm writing in first person and that is the MCs opinion.

*And then this entire anecdote below requires elevation and paint. It reads like the kind of thing a police recruit might say at his job interview. And you know that. *is this your way of calling the paragraph stale? lol
* It requires re-writing with a greater feel for your/or any sense of 'abandon.' OR twist the 'nerdery', for want of a better word, exaggerate that element. *I'd be a liar if I acted like I know what you mean by that ffft. well i know you're saying give it more personality basically.

I posted this wip in the workshop, i'm working on what I had already posted so far. cleaning it up, extending it a little...ya know the drill lol


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> A door creaking with nobody there is a staple of a ghost story. You do not mention she didn't touch anyone. You describe situations in which touch would be a natural fit but don't mention anything about touching. 'come on, I didn't even touch you' is far more natural than describing she didn't touch him. Why is this writer telling us what she didn't do? Must be a clue ...


somebody was there...his mom lol. sometimes doors just naturally creak back a little Az GOSH  I see your point and I will probably go a head and change it back. The fact that he gets cold around her bothers her too, so thats also a reason I changed it. I try to write with intent, and not just random things. Weather it comes out successfully is the issue lol


----------



## Matchu

I want some fun - either with -  

the 'mushrooms sprouted at my earlobes when I took a second puff.' 

or

 'confined among derelicts I survived primal ceremonies of the mariJuana leaf, so-called, brushed down my suit and studied the financial pages of my morning newspaper...'


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> somebody was there...his mom lol. sometimes doors just naturally creak back a little Az GOSH  I see your point and I will probably go a head and change it back. The fact that he gets cold around her bothers her too, so thats also a reason I changed it. I try to write with intent, and not just random things. Weather it comes out successfully is the issue lol


Oh, I'm getting confused! Think of the scene in terms of how you're going to show the things you need readers to pick up on and then make it subtle enough for it not to be obvious. He could close the windows and put his hands on the radiator when she's in the room for instance. There's no need to draw attention to those things though. They're just there as background information.


----------



## KeganThompson

Matchu said:


> I want some fun - either with -
> 
> the 'mushrooms sprouted at my earlobes when I took a second puff.'
> 
> or
> 
> 'confined among derelicts I survived primal ceremonies of the mariJuana leaf, so-called, brushed down my suit and studied the financial pages of my morning newspaper...'


Curious Matchu, do you have any shorts posted? I'd like to read one


----------



## Matchu

I ghost-write for @AZ.  Mainly I watch television in my towels.

[that was silly.  Love to @AZ.  I've got my daily writing and then my published writing.  Probably the daily writing is better]


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> Oh, I'm getting confused! Think of the scene in terms of how you're going to show the things you need readers to pick up on and then make it subtle enough for it not to be obvious. He could close the windows and put his hands on the radiator when she's in the room for instance. There's no need to draw attention to those things though. They're just there as background information.


yeah, thats why I have him shiver and her notice. I didnt mention a radiator but I did have him yell at his mom to turn down the AC and  this 'paragraph'
*He rolled the office chair by the window and popped it open with the force of his palms. The warmth caressed his chilled arms. Not wanting to intrude his summer bask, I stayed in my spot, talking as if he could hear me.*

Idk is that too obvious? (fft idk. ) I could take out* chilled *to make it less obvious 
There is a lot of ideas I have that I need to flesh out. even if its still rough, hopefully when its done the concepts are there that I am trying to employ and pull together. I need to beef up what I got without extending it too much
thanks for the feed back...sorry i'm not trying to be confusing


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> yeah, thats why I have him shiver and her notice. I didnt mention a radiator but I did have him yell at his mom to turn down the AC and  this 'paragraph'
> *He rolled the office chair by the window and popped it open with the force of his palms. The warmth caressed his chilled arms. Not wanting to intrude his summer bask, I stayed in my spot, talking as if he could hear me.*
> 
> Idk is that too obvious? (fft idk. ) I could take out* chilled *to make it less obvious
> There is a lot of ideas I have that I need to flesh out. even if its still rough, hopefully when its done the concepts are there that I am trying to employ and pull together. I need to beef up what I got without extending it too much
> thanks for the feed back...sorry i'm not trying to be confusing


Yes, I'd remove 'chilled'. I'd also not mention she spoke 'as if' he could hear her. Just have her speak and him ignore her. And don't say 'he ignored her' lol. Describe the scene to show he didn't hear her and 'imply' he ignored her.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> Yes, I'd remove 'chilled'. I'd also not mention she spoke 'as if' he could hear her. Just have her speak and him ignore her. And don't say 'he ignored her' lol. Describe the scene to show he didn't hear her and 'imply' he ignored her.


okay. Will do. I am going to work on it tonight. Thank you
How is the sixth chamber going?


----------



## KeganThompson

Matchu said:


> I ghost-write for @AZ.  Mainly I watch television in my towels.
> 
> [that was silly.  Love to @AZ.  I've got my daily writing and then my published writing.  Probably the daily writing is better]


can you send a link to one?


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> okay. Will do. I am going to work on it tonight. Thank you
> How is the sixth chamber going?


It's going well. I'm having a good think about what I have so far before I write the last few paragraphs for the opening scene. Then I've got to start worrying about how Fiddlesticks talks. This is where a strong grasp of grammar would come in handy to make sure the grammar 'mistakes' he makes are consistent. I could easily pull off a Yoda, but Fiddlesticks is going to be a little more complex:

“Aint no one got desert time to be wastin’ on lolly folk,” Fiddlesticks said.
“Funny storm me thinks. Gods sharpening teeth on the earth, rumble hungry and fat. No wet, just dry like the ground and sharp like the stone.”


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> It's going well. I'm having a good think about what I have so far before I write the last few paragraphs for the opening scene. Then I've got to start worrying about how Fiddlesticks talks. This is where a strong grasp of grammar would come in handy to make sure the grammar 'mistakes' he makes is consistent. I could easily pull off a Yoda, but Fiddlesticks is going to be a little more complex:
> 
> “Aint no one got desert time to be wastin’ on lolly folk,” Fiddlesticks said.


Lookin forward to his character. 
yeah...grammar, not my strong point. _sweats_


----------



## Matchu

KeganThompson said:


> can you send a link to one?





KeganThompson said:


> can you send a link to one?


I sent you an invite to my castle.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Lookin forward to his character.
> yeah...grammar, not my strong point. _sweats_


It's one thing having an ear for grammar and therefore writing instinctively, but without fully understanding what rules are in play, deliberately breaking those rules is problematic.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

I've just rejigged this sentence slightly. I've already established he's walking through the desert, so do I need 'sand' or not?

*Old version:*
Spurs rattled with each step taken, sand swallowing footprints in a sleepless breeze.

*New version:*
Spurs rattled with each step taken, footprints swallowed in a sleepless breeze.


----------



## Matchu

Would I wear my spurs without my horse?  Do spurs rattle as they sink into sand?
I don’t understand what a sleepless breeze is…or is a sleepless breeze no breeze?


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Matchu said:


> Would I wear my spurs without my horse?  Do spurs rattle as they sink into sand?
> I don’t understand what a sleepless breeze is…or is a sleepless breeze no breeze?


A sleepless breeze is a breeze that never stops. It goes on and on ... rather like Yarrod. But, to the question, which is the better version? Do I need 'sand' there?


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> A sleepless breeze is a breeze that never stops. It goes on and on ... rather like Yarrod. But, to the question, which is the better version? Do I need 'sand' there?


If we already know he is in the desert based previous context then I'd say sand is not necessary. The reader already has that in mind. Unless you are trying to emphasize the sand for a particular reason but since you are asking this question. I assume not. 
Depends on the context (sorry I don't remember the what followed before or after this sentence) do you want to emphasize and give more of a visual regarding his walk in the desert? If it has already been emphasized else where that he is in the desert and u don't want to over do it, then I'd say take it out.
Consider what u have already written around the sentence and what impact your trying to make with the walk...
Idk if that helped but at least I tried lol


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> If we already know he is in the desert based previous context then I'd say sand is not necessary. The reader already has that in mind. Unless you are trying to emphasize the sand for a particular reason but since you are asking this question. I assume not.
> Depends on the context (sorry I don't remember the what followed before or after this sentence) do you want to emphasize and give more of a visual regarding his walk in the desert? If it has already been emphasized else where that he is in the desert and u don't want to over do it, then I'd say take it out.
> Consider what u have already written around the sentence and what impact your trying to make with the walk...
> Idk if that helped but at least I tried lol


Yeah, 'sand' has been removed from my final pass. I've also changed 'endless' to 'eternal'. Final sentence (for now)

Spurs rattled with each step taken, footprints swallowed in an eternal breeze.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> Yeah, 'sand' has been removed from my final pass. I've also changed 'endless' to 'eternal'.


 eternal is better, same meaning but more haunting and elegant


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> eternal is better, same meaning but more haunting and elegant


It's a little on the nose for what I intended to be a subtle metaphor but not too intrusive I don't think.

Writing is seriously good fun!


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> It's a little on the nose for what I intended to be a subtle metaphor but not too intrusive I don't think.
> 
> Writing is seriously good fun!


I like how I made a whole thread about taking a break but I'm over here peaking at my short lool
I have an idea for a flash that I want to start on soon. Dont know if I should finish this one up first or flip back and forth


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> I like how I made a whole thread about taking a break but I'm over here peaking at my short lool
> I have an idea for a flash that I want to start on soon. Dont know if I should finish this one up first or flip back and forth


The good thing about flash fiction is you can throw it down in a day. THEN you can go back and edit and tighten. All the short stories I've written for practice have turned out to be far longer than I intended, apart from a couple of comp stories, which I wrote straight through and then tightened.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> The good thing about flash fiction is you can throw it down in a day. THEN you can go back and edit and tighten. All the short stories I've written for practice have turned out to be far longer than I intended, apart from a couple of comp stories, which I wrote straight through and then tightened.


yeah I tend to overthink things, the bigger the story the more daunting/ overwhelming the task feels. I need to learn to think smaller and work my way to longer stories for when I get more confident with my prose.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> yeah I tend to overthink things, *the bigger the story the more daunting/ overwhelming the task feels.* I need to learn to think smaller and work my way to longer stories for when I get more confident with my prose.


Exactly. Focus ONLY on what you're trying to achieve. Even if that flash fiction story turns out to be a pile of poo, you can still use it to hone your craft. 

I'm taking a whole year with this process so I know damned well it's going to be difficult to break the habit next Feb. So, rather than stress over completely switching methods, I intend to force myself to write a whole paragraph before I edit it. Then I'll progress to whole scenes before I edit ... and then whole chapters. I'll ween myself off the habit. See ... manageable and less daunting steps.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> Exactly. Focus ONLY on what you're trying to achieve. Even if that flash fiction story turns out to be a pile of poo, you can still use it to hone your craft.
> 
> I'm taking a whole year with this process so I know damned well it's going to be difficult to break the habit next Feb. So, rather than stress over completely switching methods, I intend to force myself to write a whole paragraph before I edit it. Then I'll progress to whole scenes before I edit ... and then whole chapters. I'll ween myself off the habit. See ... manageable and less daunting steps.


I think I'm going to continue fleshing out the last bit of my wip. Idk if I should post it when I'm done because I am going to want to edit it more later. What do you think? might just through it out there just to see I got my message across and come back to work on the craft after I work on a couple of flashes. I got 2 in mind already


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> I think I'm going to continue fleshing out the last bit of my wip. Idk if I should post it when I'm done because I am going to want to edit it more later. What do you think? might just through it out there just to see I got my message across and come back to work on the craft after I work on a couple of flashes. I got 2 in mind already


Just keep picking at it. If you don't post any snippets, then you'll not get any pointers. It's up to you. All you're doing is then taking those pointers and applying them to your next piece. That's why I try to explain why something doesn't quite look right to me. I'm not editing, I'm giving pointers and critiquing.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> Just keep picking at it. If you don't post any snippets, then you'll not get any pointers. It's up to you. All you're doing is then taking those pointers and applying them to your next piece. That's why I try to explain why something doesn't quite look right to me. I'm not editing, I'm giving pointers and critiquing.


I was going to post it regardless. I just didn't know if I should take a break from it and work on some flash fiction so I can have "fresh eyes" when looking at it or continue to chip at it before I work on some flash pieces. I completed my first full draft tonight. it's at exactly 2500 words lol. i think I added the elements it needs to present the idea I was going for. now I need to clean it up.
might post some pieces in the thread tomorrow. There is a lot I wanna work on.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> I was going to post it regardless. I just didn't know if I should take a break from it and work on some flash fiction so I can have "fresh eyes" when looking at it or continue to chip at it before I work on some flash pieces. I completed my first full draft tonight. it's at exactly 2500 words lol. i think I added the elements it needs to present the idea I was going for. now I need to clean it up.
> might post some pieces in the thread tomorrow. There is a lot I wanna work on.


Think about what you'll get the most from. What are your aims/goals? I'd go with what feels right at the moment. If you want to move on and write a piece of flash fiction to practice with, do that. If you feel you can still wring something out of what you've already produced, do that. The thing I can't stress more is you're on a writing forum and presumably, just like me, you're here to learn. The mistake I see people making over and over is they post their work up in the workshop section and adjust according to critique. They are merely getting their work edited. They're not learning. This is why, even if I had the time, I'd only take a snippet from a longer piece on there. I'm not here to be anyone's editor, I'm here to pass what little knowledge I have on in order to hopefully help. You have to learn to apply what you've learned to your next project, not rely on others to correct mistakes and simply alter your piece accordingly. 

Don't be so hard on yourself. You're not competing with anyone but yourself. If I was to compare myself to my heroes: Clive Barker and Ray Bradbury, I'd stick a six inch nail through my eye and announce my retirement. I'll never ever, ever be of their equal. I can however be a better version of myself.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> Think about what you'll get the most from. What are your aims/goals? I'd go with what feels right at the moment. If you want to move on and write a piece of flash fiction to practice with, do that. If you feel you can still wring something out of what you've already produced, do that. The thing I can't stress more is you're on a writing forum and presumably, just like me, you're here to learn. The mistake I see people making over and over is they post their work up in the workshop section and adjust according to critique. They are merely getting their work edited. They're not learning. This is why, even if I had the time, I'd only take a snippet from a longer piece on there. I'm not here to be anyone's editor, I'm here to pass what little knowledge I have on in order to hopefully help. You have to learn to apply what you've learned to your next project, not rely on others to correct mistakes and simply alter your piece accordingly.
> 
> Don't be so hard on yourself. You're not competing with anyone but yourself. If I was to compare myself to my heroes: Clive Barker and Ray Bradbury, I'd stick a six inch nail through my eye and announce my retirement. I'll never ever, ever be of their equal. I can however be a better version of myself.


I think I'm going to move on for a bit. Post some flash.
And yes I agree, I don't want you to edit my work either, then it's not my work. I do my best to consider what others say and see their examples but if I were to copy and paste the red sentences you give me, then it's no longer mine. I want it to be mine but I want to make it stronger based on the critique given. That's why I like that you not only give examples but you EXPLAIN why, and sometimes I totally agree and sometimes...I don't  but regardless I see your point and do my best to show mine. And thinking about it has also changed my view of what I'm doing once I see how its viewed by others. I may write something but its not perceived how I want it (or could be percieved better) by the reader that's why I need to reconsider my words/sentences to still fit what I want to say AND have the reader understand. But also make sure it still fits the voice/ tone IM portraying.
Can be a challenge for sure. Especially when your new and not sure what your voice is. (Me)Lol no point in writing if my work is more of someone else's than mine 

It's funny because I'm not comparing myself to anyone in particular. I just constantly ask myself if my work will ever be enough. That alone is hard


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> I think I'm going to move on for a bit. Post some flash.
> And yes I agree, I don't want you to edit my work either, then it's not my work. I do my best to consider what others say and see their examples but if I were to copy and paste the red sentences you give me, then it's no longer mine. I want it to be mine but I want to make it stronger based on the critique given. That's why I like that you not only give examples but you EXPLAIN why, and sometimes I totally agree and sometimes...I don't  but regardless I see your point and do my best to show mine. And thinking about it has also changed my view of what I'm doing once I see how its viewed by others. I may write something but its not perceived how I want it (or could be percieved better) by the reader that's why I need to reconsider my words/sentences to still fit what I want to say AND have the reader understand. But also make sure it still fits the voice/ tone IM portraying.
> Can be a challenge for sure. Especially when your new and not sure what your voice is. (Me)Lol no point in writing if my work is more of someone else's than mine
> 
> It's funny because I'm not comparing myself to anyone in particular. I just constantly ask myself if my work will ever be enough. That alone is hard


My greatest find was Barker. When I was younger, I had this voice in my head (not a real voice. I'm not crazy). I think it was born out of the fact I loved films and art but could never envision myself making films, and I wasn't a great artist. But then I found words and realised I could paint and film at the same time. Result! I had a definite idea of what I would film and what I would paint but couldn't get it right in words. I wanted scalpel sharp prose with a poetic undercurrent, and then just nudge it a little, set if off kilter, angle it slightly, so it sounded odd, unusual but still make sense. I went in search of other published authors to see if there was anyone writing as I'd imagined. I just couldn't find it anywhere ... until I read The Books Of Blood. It sent a shiver up my spine to see what I was aiming for expressed so well. It was also sobering.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> My greatest find was Barker. When I was younger, I had this voice in my head (not a real voice. I'm not crazy). I think it was born out of the fact I loved films and art but could never envision myself making films, and I wasn't a great artist. But then I found words and realised I could paint and film at the same time. Result! I had a definite idea of what I would film and what I would paint but couldn't get it right in words. I wanted scalpel sharp prose with a poetic undercurrent, and then just nudge it a little, set if off kilter, angle it slightly, so it sounded odd, unusual but still make sense. I went in search of other published authors to see if there was anyone writing as I'd imagined. I just couldn't find it anywhere ... until I read The Books Of Blood. It sent a shiver up my spine to see what I was aiming for expressed so well. It was also sobering.


I know exactly what you mean. I can draw and when I was younger wanted to do comics, but idk I got into regular books instead of just manga and I kinda changed my mind. Its hard, when you have a vision in your head but don't have the skill to portray it accurately and present it to the world. I knew I couldn't be a part of the movie scene and I wanted to bring what I saw in my head to life. Just like drawing is hard, and honestly, I find writing a story harder than painting a picture. People can see pictures right away but with words, they gotta take the time to read them. And you gotta make sure its worth reading or else they will stop since it takes more effort to read than to look at a drawing...
also, I will check out the author you mentioned.  I need to get into more horror novels/ short stories


----------



## KeganThompson

I glanced at the civic, wondering how long it had been there, or if it had even left the lot at all. *Thoughts plastered her face as I drew closer.*
I peered at her shoes, then to my Converse. Despite her platform heels, I still beat her by a couple of inches in height. Big strawberry blonde locks caressed her over blushed cheeks.  Freckles *peppered* her face, neck, boney collar, and chest. Her unsure, brown eyes waited for me to speak.
“Have you seen a man with brown hair, a beard, early forties?”
*Her shoulders relaxed and she released a pent-up breath. She held the cigarette to her ruby lips and took a final drag. She dropped the cigarette, smothering it under her platform. Starring up from the smashed cigarette, wary eyes continued to linger.*


Still working on it~
"thoughts plastered her face as I drew closer" I took out " How deep was her desperation? " A part of me wants to leave it because he sees her reaction to him coming and reads her face. But I feel like it's head-hopping. But I like the sentence "Thoughts plastered her face as I drew close" as a sentence.

Trying peppered, unsure if it works. But I think it works better than strewn
old:
Her shoulders relaxed and she released a pent-up breath before taking a final drag. She dropped the cigarette ringed with red on the ground, smothering it under her platform. Starring
New
*Her shoulders relaxed and she released a pent-up breath. She held the cigarette to her ruby lips and took a final drag. She dropped the cigarette, smothering it under her platform. Starring up from the smashed cigarette, wary eyes continued to linger.*

I wanted to hint at her lipstick by saying "ringed in red" but its not quite working and I'm not sure how to explain her lipstick mark on the cigarette. So I thought I'd be more direct

I also changed her reactions to him to be more uncertain than fearful


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Can you see the shape and configuration of this tent/house?

The first thing Yarrod saw when he opened his eyes was a spoked frame made of stripped branches that radiated out from a chimney coated in clay. Over this, a simple blue canvas reached to the floor and covered other sturdier lengths of sapling supporting the wheel of wood above.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> Can you see the shape and configuration of this tent/house?
> 
> The first thing Yarrod saw when he opened his eyes was a spoked frame made of stripped branches that radiated out from a chimney coated in clay. Over this, a simple blue canvas reached to the floor and covered other sturdier lengths of sapling supporting the wheel of wood above.


TBH I'm struggling a bit. I think  _spoked frame_ and _That radiated out from the chimney _Is throwing me off.
But I could just be an amateur that doesn't understand literature. That is highly likely lol


----------



## Taylor

Yes, but I had to read it twice before I could picture it.    One thing that threw me off is the word floor.  Since there is a chimney, I'm assuming this is outside.  



TheMightyAz said:


> Can you see the shape and configuration of this tent/house?
> 
> The first thing Yarrod saw when he opened his eyes was a spoked frame made of stripped branches that radiated out from a chimney coated in clay. (Is the clay important?  It's one more thing to visualize before you're finished imagining this structure.) Over this, a simple blue canvas reached to the floor ground and covered other sturdier lengths of sapling supporting the wheel of wood above.


----------



## TheManx

As the dark and mysterious stranger approached, Angela bit her lip anxiously, hoping with every nerve, cell, and fiber of her being that this would be the one man who would understand – who would take her away from all this – and who would not just squeeze her boob and make a loud honking noise, as all the others had.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheManx said:


> As the dark and mysterious stranger approached, Angela bit her lip anxiously, hoping with every nerve, cell, and fiber of her being that this would be the one man who would understand – who would take her away from all this – and who would not just squeeze her boob and make a loud honking noise, as all the others had.


 I didn't expect that to be the ending of the paragraph lol


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

TheManx said:


> As the dark and mysterious stranger approached, Angela bit her lip anxiously, hoping with every nerve, cell, and fiber of her being that this would be the one man who would understand – who would take her away from all this – and who would not just squeeze her boob and make a loud honking noise, as all the others had.


I'm assuming you've posted this for craft help but I think you're going to have to mention what it is you're not entirely happy with. I'd ease up on the 'every nerve, cell, and fibre of her being' and just go with 'fibre'. Perhaps lose 'that' too. I know what you're doing here but I don't think you have to try that hard.  If I were to rewrite this is would be:

As the dark and mysterious stranger approached, Angela bit her lip anxiously, hoping with every fibre of her being, this would be the one man who would understand--who would take her away from all this--and who would not just squeeze her breast and make a loud honking noise, as all the others had. 

I love the contrast you've created with this. From the overly sublime to the gutter. I'd like to see the story attached to this to see if you can follow through with this juxtaposition.


----------



## JBF

TheMightyAz said:


> Can you see the shape and configuration of this tent/house?



Pretty much.  Couple of suggestions, though.



TheMightyAz said:


> The first thing Yarrod saw when he opened his eyes was a spoked frame made of stripped branches that radiated out from a chimney coated in clay.



Picking nits, I know, but I'll go on a limb and say that your camera and your protag are in different places.  The reader may see the frame and the chimney.  Yarrod, waking up in a strange place, might more reasonably open his eyes and imagine himself looking through the spokes of a great wagon wheel with a mud-brick oven for a hub.  I'd lead with him coming to, wondering at the where and how of his circumstances, and drawing in the details afterwards.  



TheMightyAz said:


> Over this, a simple blue canvas reached to the floor and covered other sturdier lengths of sapling supporting the wheel of wood above.



Question - how big is the shelter?  The suggestion of a wheel-shaped structure with an oven at the center implies a decent size.  Probably fairly stout, too, since canvas is heavy.  Immediately thereafter you have saplings (to suggest juvenile stock) which would be more in line with something like a pup tent or shelter half.  My initial guess was something roughly on par with a yurt, though given the setting something built on the leftovers of an older structure or civilization is also a possibility.


----------



## JBF

KeganThompson said:


> I glanced at the civic, wondering how long it had been there, or if it had even left the lot at all. *Thoughts plastered her face as I drew closer.*



_Thoughts _is kind of a broad term given the circumstances.  Later on you suggest tension, so I'd use that - is she wary of the narrator?  Fearful?  Amused at a kid who looks kind of lost?  Maybe she's used to furtive customers and reads him wrong.  Maybe she feels bad for him...then again, maybe she finds it irritating.  

Lots of different ways you could go.  



KeganThompson said:


> I peered at her shoes, then to my Converse. Despite her platform heels, I still beat her by a couple of inches in height.



A suggestion - disregard if it's too far out - but this seems like a natural outgrowth of the narrator's uncertainty.  Rather than considering shoes, have him look at the ground and just kind of by chance notice that he stands half a head taller than her, even accounting for her platform heels.  



KeganThompson said:


> Freckles *peppered* her face, neck, boney collar, and chest.



Peppered is good.  Concise, descriptive, to the point.  Keep that.

Boney collar...that one's a little odd.  'Pronounced collarbones' might serve better, or the narrator realizing he can count ribs through her shirt.  



KeganThompson said:


> Her unsure, brown eyes waited for me to speak.



Here you may get the odd sense that the eyes are waiting.  More accurately, _she _is waiting while she regards him with uncertain/afraid/amused/bored eyes.



KeganThompson said:


> *Her shoulders relaxed and she released a pent-up breath. She held the cigarette to her ruby lips and took a final drag. She dropped the cigarette, smothering it under her platform. Starring up from the smashed cigarette, wary eyes continued to linger.*



You can safely eliminate putting the cigarette to her lips.  She took a final drag/dropped the filtered butt printed with red lipstick/ground it under her heel can be worked into one sentence.  Follow up with her attention (not eyes) moving from the result to the narrator.  



KeganThompson said:


> I also changed her reactions to him to be more uncertain than fearful



You can work with this.  She's not afraid of him, so what's her angle?  To build on some of the above, she could conceivably be:


Amused at a kid she thinks may be trying to pick up a girl without looking suspicious
Annoyed that she's potentially wasting time on a prospect that goes nowhere
Unable to read him, and on edge due to the unknown
Sympathetic, in some fashion, because she realizes things are kind of screwed up for him
Casually interested because this is something that differs from her daily routine

All that being said it's been a couple of days since I read the longer piece from which this was excerpted, so ignore any of this if it's been answered or resolved since.


----------



## KeganThompson

_*Thoughts *_*is kind of a broad term given the circumstances. Later on you suggest tension, so I'd use that - is she wary of the narrator? Fearful? Amused at a kid who looks kind of lost? Maybe she's used to furtive customers and reads him wrong. Maybe she feels bad for him...then again, maybe she finds it irritating.*
Originally I had after"thoughts plastered her face,* how deep was her desperation? *I feel like that sentence alone helps bring it together. Its hard because I am writing in first person and I need to find ways for the MC to notice certain actions without being too direct or head hoping.. I took it out because I didn't know how I felt about it, it if it worked or not. Because its a direct thought he is guessing based n her face and situation.

*A suggestion - disregard if it's too far out - but this seems like a natural outgrowth of the narrator's uncertainty. Rather than considering shoes, have him look at the ground and just kind of by chance notice that he stands half a head taller than her, even accounting for her platform heels.*

I see what you mean, I brought up the shoes suggesting he was looking down at the ground and compared the shoes they were wearing. I need him to look down at the ground then notice, compare and realize he is still taller.

*You can safely eliminate putting the cigarette to her lips. She took a final drag/dropped the filtered butt printed with red lipstick/ground it under her heel can be worked into one sentence. Follow up with her attention (not eyes) moving from the result to the narrator.*

haha, I originally didnt have that, I suggested her lip color but describing the cigarette as "ringed in red" but that wasn't quite working for me. SO I tried to mess with it. 
_Her unsure, brown eyes waited for me to speak.- _Listen, I was told a comma could fix it. I'm trying okay? Lol

*You can work with this. She's not afraid of him, so what's her angle? To build on some of the above, she could conceivably be:*

"Her wary eyes turned to pity, something she should’ve kept for herself. Her morals seemed compromised enough when it came down to it, I didn't know how I’d be an exception." is toward the end and the desperation thought (that I left out) I think help the reader figure out her problem. Idk how well but those 2 are the big ones
So, he is a teenager, clearly a minor. This woman prostitutes to feed her habit when she sees him coming she the gears in her head start turning. She is thinking of what would she do if he asks for her services. She's having a moral dilemma. When he asks if she has been his dad, she releases a pent-up breath-she is relieved but the _wary eyes_ continue to linger because he still might ask. I mislead too much the 2nd draft I had and posted, they thought the woman seemed afraid of him but she is afraid of herself. so I changed a couple of things to suggest she is uncertain/ unsure instead of nervous/ fearful. hopefully, after this explanation, you can give me some pointers.
I figured my post was too long so, I cut the story, leaving my main concerns. I can repost the whole thing. (?)  I took a break from it and now working on editing my ghost story so I can post that in the workshop soon.
thanks for your suggestions

I apologize if this reply isn't the most coherent. I just woke up and the coffee I drank so far ain't doing it for me.


----------



## TheManx

TheMightyAz said:


> I'm assuming you've posted this for craft help but I think you're going to have to mention what it is you're not entirely happy with. I'd ease up on the 'every nerve, cell, and fibre of her being' and just go with 'fibre'. Perhaps lose 'that' too. I know what you're doing here but I don't think you have to try that hard.  If I were to rewrite this is would be:
> 
> As the dark and mysterious stranger approached, Angela bit her lip anxiously, hoping with every fibre of her being, this would be the one man who would understand--who would take her away from all this--and who would not just squeeze her breast and make a loud honking noise, as all the others had.
> 
> I love the contrast you've created with this. From the overly sublime to the gutter. I'd like to see the story attached to this to see if you can follow through with this juxtaposition.



Thanks! I have to apologize for taking up your time. I was just being silly -- writing over the top on purpose. Cheers!


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

JBF said:


> Pretty much.  Couple of suggestions, though.
> 
> 
> 
> Picking nits, I know, but I'll go on a limb and say that your camera and your protag are in different places.  The reader may see the frame and the chimney.  Yarrod, waking up in a strange place, might more reasonably open his eyes and imagine himself looking through the spokes of a great wagon wheel with a mud-brick oven for a hub.  I'd lead with him coming to, wondering at the where and how of his circumstances, and drawing in the details afterwards.
> 
> 
> 
> Question - how big is the shelter?  The suggestion of a wheel-shaped structure with an oven at the center implies a decent size.  Probably fairly stout, too, since canvas is heavy.  Immediately thereafter you have saplings (to suggest juvenile stock) which would be more in line with something like a pup tent or shelter half.  My initial guess was something roughly on par with a yurt, though given the setting something built on the leftovers of an older structure or civilization is also a possibility.


You always come up with the goods my man. I've had a rethink anyway and don't think going straight into a description on him waking is a good idea. I like the idea of it being more vague and just an impression. I'd likened it to a wheel but, you know what, it never even crossed my mind to liken it to a wagon wheel ... I mean, seriously. It's a Western based horror/fantasy. I have a spokes of wood. And I never thought of a wagon wheel, even though I called it a 'wheel of wood'.


----------



## TheManx

TheMightyAz said:


> Yeah, I knew you were writing over the top on purpose. But tell me, in a thread on craft, why did you decide to just 'be silly' and write 'over the top on purpose'? Isn't it obvious that if you write over the top on purpose then anyone who contributes to the craft thread in terms of critique is going to assume you've written it over the top on purpose and give you pointers with that in mind.
> 
> Your apology then is a little puzzling. Because if you was only messing about and had no intention of really taking notice of any critique, then it would lead me to believe you posted that in order to have a chuckle down your sleeve at anybody who took it seriously. I can think of no other interpretation to be honest ...
> 
> I took it seriously. Why wouldn't I?



I honestly thought it was so silly no one would take it seriously -- and that they would have a chuckle. I was going for the "It was a dark and stormy night" kind of thing." of course, now I see it didn't come off -- so my apology is 100% sincere.


----------



## TheManx

TheMightyAz said:


> You obviously didn't post it in good faith.



Well, as I explained, I did post it in good faith -- regardless of whether you believe it or not.  Again, I apologize -- otherwise, I'm done with it. Later.


----------



## TheManx

TheMightyAz said:


> Selectively quoting has only made matters worse. It's everything outside of that quote I'm more concerned about. Bottom line: I feel as if you posted that to have a laugh at the expense of anyone who took it seriously.



I guess I’m not done.

I pulled that quote because it’s where you are doubting my word — and you’re doing it again.

Reality and what you "feel" are at odds. Oh well...


----------



## JBF

KeganThompson said:


> Listen, I was told a comma could fix it.



Commas.  The duct tape of the writing world?  



KeganThompson said:


> I apologize if this reply isn't the most coherent. I just woke up and the coffee I drank so far ain't doing it for me.



No problem.  I need to go back and read the original.  Hopefully, before long I'll get the chance.  Seems like every time I sit down to catch up, life remembers I'm an adult and gives me something pressing to do.  

Adulthood is a lie.  Same crap you gotta deal with as a kid, but with taxes and no naps.


----------



## JBF

TheMightyAz said:


> You always come up with the goods my man.



As long as you don't need serial numbers or paper trails.  



TheMightyAz said:


> I've had a rethink anyway and don't think going straight into a description on him waking is a good idea. I like the idea of it being more vague and just an impression. I'd likened it to a wheel but, you know what, it never even crossed my mind to liken it to a wagon wheel ... I mean, seriously. It's a Western based horror/fantasy. I have a spokes of wood. And I never thought of a wagon wheel, even though I called it a 'wheel of wood'.



I wouldn't sweat it.  Captain Obvious gets the drop on me with alarming regularity these days.


----------



## KeganThompson

JBF said:


> Commas.  The duct tape of the writing world?
> 
> 
> 
> No problem.  I need to go back and read the original.  Hopefully, before long I'll get the chance.  Seems like every time I sit down to catch up, life remembers I'm an adult and gives me something pressing to do.
> 
> Adulthood is a lie.  Same crap you gotta deal with as a kid, but with taxes and no naps.


Yes,  cuz duct tape fixes the issue and we can pretend it's okay and leave it. Just like commas lol

I know plenty of adults who are pettier than children loool. I thought after I got out of my teens ppl would take me a bit more seriously. Come to find out, they don't really do that in your twenties either 
But thanks again for using some of you limited time on lil ol' me. It's appreciated 

EDIT wow typing on my phone at work really isn't a good idea. I had to fix my awkward errors..looks like I need to use my work computer


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

JBF said:


> As long as you don't need serial numbers or paper trails.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't sweat it.  Captain Obvious gets the drop on me with alarming regularity these days.


I don't know why but my biggest weakness is describing interiors and knowing when to weave it in. I suppose (and I imagine), the best approach is to give the characters in the scene things to do that relate to whatever it is you wish to describe next. That's a habit I just can't make a habit for some reason.


----------



## VRanger

KeganThompson said:


> ...  if I were to copy and paste the red sentences you give me, then it's no longer mine. I want it to be mine but I want to make it stronger based on the critique given. That's why I like that you not only give examples but you EXPLAIN why, and sometimes I totally agree and sometimes...I don't  but regardless I see your point and do my best to show mine.


There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with taking an edit from someone else. If you have something accepted by an editor--short story or novel--it's going to come back with edits that are not suggested, but demanded. Pretty much every author getting paid has published work which is, in the end, something of a collaboration between the author and the editor. One reason is that no draft is ever perfect, and no author will ever perfect their work. A good editor won't make it perfect, either, but they will find improvements the author did not.


----------



## KeganThompson

vranger said:


> There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with taking an edit from someone else. If you have something accepted by an editor--short story or novel--it's going to come back with edits that are not suggested, but demanded. Pretty much every author getting paid has published work which is, in the end, something of a collaboration between the author and the editor. One reason is that no draft is ever perfect, and no author will ever perfect their work. A good editor won't make it perfect, either, but they will find improvements the author did not.


I use some of the suggestions, I wasnt trying to say you should NEVER take an edit someone has. I meant using_ every_ edit someone has suggested instead of putting in the work as a new writer and figuring a better way to write a sentence/paragraph on my own. I like working with people with my edits, thats why I take the critique, readjust it, and repost it to see what they think. Sometimes I gotta compromise my original idea for the sentence to make it work and I'm fine with that. As long as the big picture is still there.
I just dont want to take some else edit every time, I wont learn that way.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

New start to scene two of The Sixth Chamber. My questions are: Is 'released' an all too obvious avoidance of repeating 'opened' and should I go with my original idea of ending with 'split' instead of burst? '... the skin of him felt fit to split.' Or does the rhyme get in the way there?

When Yarrod opened his eyes, it was as if he’d released a sluice gate and all the dirty light and lurching geometry crashed into him. It filled his throat and stomach so utterly, the skin of him felt fit to burst.


----------



## Phil Istine

TheMightyAz said:


> New start to scene two of The Sixth Chamber. My questions are: Is 'released' an all too obvious avoidance of repeating 'opened' and should I go with my original idea of ending with 'split' instead of burst? '... the skin of him felt fit to split.' Or does the rhyme get in the way there?
> 
> When Yarrod opened his eyes, it was as if he’d released a sluice gate and all the dirty light and lurching geometry crashed into him. It filled his throat and stomach so utterly, the skin of him felt fit to burst.


'Burst' looks fine, though the term 'fit to burst' might be cliched.  I'm unclear why you've written 'the skin of him' rather than 'his skin'.  Maybe 'It so filled his throat and stomach, his skin felt fit to burst.'  Using 'so' in that manner is less usual these days but may be worth considering.
Might 'unleashed' work for the sluice gate?

Alternative:?  When Yarrod opened his eyes, it was as if he’d unleashed a sluice gate (dam?) and all the dirty light and lurching geometry crashed into him. It so filled his throat and stomach, his skin felt fit to burst (rip?).


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Phil Istine said:


> 'Burst' looks fine, though the term 'fit to burst' might be cliched.  I'm unclear why you've written 'the skin of him' rather than 'his skin'.  Maybe 'It so filled his throat and stomach, his skin felt fit to burst.'  Using 'so' in that manner is less usual these days but may be worth considering.
> Might 'unleashed' work for the sluice gate?
> 
> Alternative:?  When Yarrod opened his eyes, it was as if he’d unleashed a sluice gate (dam?) and all the dirty light and lurching geometry crashed into him. It so filled his throat and stomach, his skin felt fit to burst (rip?).


Damn it, you're right. It is a cliche isn't it. Bugger. I'll have to change that then. I might consider dam there too. It depends if I like the rhythm.

I just like the slightly quirky nature of 'It filled his throat and stomach so utterly, the skin of him felt fit to burst.' It's like rolling a toffee around in my mouth.  It's what I'm going for. Sometimes I like to just set a sentence at an odd angle. That's an example.


----------



## KeganThompson

Something new I started this morning...not sure where it's going or how far imma take it. I got plenty of ideas though. If this is too long for the forum...lemme know and I will cut it back There is a lot of dialogue and small paragraphs so I wasn't for sure.

I woke up to the sound of multiple thuds and a couple of expletives. I yanked the cover over my head, convincing myself it would absorb the racket. When I heard another loud bang and continuous stomping, I knew it was over. 
I threw the blanket off my head and tried to open my eyes. Clumps of mascara caked my lashes, forcing my lids together. I should’ve washed my face before bed last night. I scraped the debris from my eyes, pulling out a few lashes in the process. 
* Picking up my phone from the nightstand, I groaned. It was 10:08 a.m. on a Saturday. *
I heard voices outside my bedroom walls but couldn’t decipher the words until, “No, You need to turn it that way...No! the other way!”
_Ah, the joys of living in an apartment complex._
*I forced myself out of bed, stepping over the strewn clothes on my floor.* I dragged my feet down the hall and into the living room. Mom had her cheek against the door and an eye looking out the peephole.
“New neighbors?” I mumbled.
Mom turned her head to look at me. “Yep, looks like they finally rented out the apartment across the hall.”
“You think they know about the last people who lived there?”
“Yeah, I’d say so. Pretty sure they have to legally disclose a death.”
“I thought that’s only if you were buying a house.”
Her eyes wandered off. “Yeah, I think you’re right,” she said with a smile. “They probably don’t know then.”
I rubbed my eyes, definitely smearing the remaining coal liner and mascara everywhere. Black specks stuck to my fingertips and I whipped the dry chunks on my oversized tee. 
Peeping out the hole, mom said, “Looks like they got a little boy. He’s a cutie.”
“How old?” I asked.
“Oh, about your age.”
“He’s not a little boy then.”
Mom pulled *her nose* from the door. “Well, he’s a little boy to me.”
When my mom referenced a kid as “little” I knew that could arrange anywhere from five to early twenties.

first sentence I highlighted, I didn't know if it should be stand alone or go with the above paragraph (also it needs some work I think)
second bold, the sentence feels incomplete to me, like something's missing. I need to work on it but I want to indicate her room is messy.
last bold. I'm trying to call her mom "nosy" indirectly. idk if I quite did it or not though..


----------



## Ajoy

KeganThompson said:


> I woke up to the sound of multiple thuds and a couple of expletives. (This gives me the first impression that someone in the MCs house is fighting; maybe reference where the issue is coming from earler?) I yanked the cover over my head, convincing myself it would absorb the racket. When I heard another loud bang and continuous stomping, I knew it was over. (I haven't lived in an apartment setting in a while, but this level of noise makes me think there is a shared wall rather than through a wall, across a hall and through another wall; I also thought it was maybe coming from above because the MC can hear stomping.)
> I threw the blanket off my head and tried to open my eyes. Clumps of mascara caked my lashes, forcing my lids together. (I've had my upper lashes clump together and woken with black smears under my eyes, but my eye have only ever crusted shut once when I was a kid; I think I had pink eye. Can mascara actually do this?) I should’ve washed my face before bed last night. I scraped the debris from my eyes, pulling out a few lashes in the process.
> * Picking up my phone from the nightstand, I groaned. It was 10:08 a.m. on a Saturday. *(I don't really see this going with the previous action to form a paragraph, but I do wish more of the ideas of this piece were worked to form a few larger paragraphs-this could totally be preference!  I like shorter paragraphs, but because there is also so much dialogue, it all comes across a bit rushed, though it's not really a scenario that should feel rushed...not sure if I'm making sense! Also, why is the MC goaning about the time?)
> I heard voices outside my bedroom walls but couldn’t decipher the words until, (Why was the MC suddenly able to hear the voices clearly? This wording threw me a bit. Also, the first sentence references expletives, so they were hearing words earlier as well.)  “No, You need to turn it that way...No! the other way!”
> _Ah, the joys of living in an apartment complex.(consider using this or something similar closer to the beginning. I think it's fine here, but it would clarify that the MC wasn't hiding from an in home domestic violence situation earlier.)_
> *I forced myself out of bed, stepping over the strewn clothes on my floor.* I dragged (what feeling is causing the MC to drag their feet? I don't know that the bolded sentence feels incomplete so much as the general picture of this scene. Where is the character's state of mind that they are focing from bed and dragging feet downt he hall? Maybe explore ways to fill that part of the image out?) my feet down the hall and into the living room. Mom had her cheek against the door and an eye looking out the peephole. (You mention wanting to indicate that the mom is nosy from your next bolded statement, which I think works fine, but this is the place that made me think Mom was nosy.)
> “New neighbors?” I mumbled.
> Mom turned her head to look at me. “Yep, looks like they finally rented out the apartment across the hall.”
> “You think they know about the last people who lived there?”
> “Yeah, I’d say so. Pretty sure they have to legally disclose a death.”
> “I thought that’s only if you were buying a house.”
> Her eyes wandered off. “Yeah, I think you’re right,” she said with a smile. “They probably don’t know then.” (There may be a good reason for this exchange to be this way, but as it is, it feels weird to me that the mom is getting corrected by her kid about the rules of death disclosures. Maybe this is a parent who's child has had to take on a responsibility role or something though...if it's consistent with your characters, disregard my note-It just read odd to me.)
> I rubbed my eyes, definitely smearing the remaining coal liner and mascara everywhere. Black specks stuck to my fingertips and I whipped the dry chunks on my oversized tee.
> Peeping out the hole, mom said, “Looks like they got a little boy. He’s a cutie.”
> “How old?” I asked.
> “Oh, about your age.”
> “He’s not a little boy then.”
> Mom pulled *her nose* from the door. “Well, he’s a little boy to me.”
> When my mom referenced a kid as “little” I knew that could arrange anywhere from five to early twenties.


My notes are more from a reader's lens. Please take what is helpful and disregard the rest.  Overall, it read pretty easily and was interesting. It left me wondering what happened to the last people in the other apartment and also curious about the mom. I thought the exchange about age at the end of your passage was fun.


----------



## KeganThompson

Ajoy said:


> My notes are more from a reader's lens. Please take what is helpful and disregard the rest.  Overall, it read pretty easily and was interesting. It left me wondering what happened to the last people in the other apartment and also curious about the mom. I thought the exchange about age at the end of your passage was fun.


*(This gives me the first impression that someone in the MCs house is fighting; maybe reference where the issue is coming from earler?)*
yeah I see why you think that I agree I need to make it more obvious in the beginning she is in an apartment. 

*(I haven't lived in an apartment setting in a while, but this level of noise makes me think there is a shared wall rather than through a wall, across a hall and through another wall; I also thought it was maybe coming from above because the MC can hear stomping.)*
I had to stomping _up the stairs _but took it out. It's easier to hear the racket from my living room but I have heard noise from my bedroom. My apartment is a one-bedroom though but I think it depends on how close the rooms are to the hall. All the noise is coming from the hallway. I should make that more clear. "

*(I've had my upper lashes clump together and woken with black smears under my eyes, but my eye have only ever crusted shut once when I was a kid; I think I had pink eye. Can mascara actually do this?)*

Actually yes it happened to me a few nights ago. lol. I woke up and a few of my top lashes and bottom lashes were clumped together. and I even took a shower the night before! its that waterproof mascara I tell ya... (yet it still smudges during the day )
*
 don't really see this going with the previous action to form a paragraph, but I do wish more of the ideas of this piece were worked to form a few larger paragraphs-this could totally be preference!  I like shorter paragraphs, but because there is also so much dialogue, it all comes across a bit rushed, though it's not really a scenario that should feel rushed...not sure if I'm making sense! Also, why is the MC goaning about the time?*

I need to reference she is a night-owl, She's upset because its Saturday, and for her 10 is early on a Saturday. (I hope that clarifies) I thought about adding that but wanted to post my "bare bones" so far.  (I get impatient! lol) I will flesh that out more, its needed. (Which I knew in the back of my head and ignored it )
* 
(Why was the MC suddenly able to hear the voices clearly? This wording threw me a bit. Also, the first sentence references expletives, so they were hearing words earlier as well.)  *I thought they may be a contradiction (but again I ignored it haha) I was thinking more like -hearing full-sentence clearly, not just curse words.I also added exploitive, when I first typed the sentence it wasn't there.

* (what feeling is causing the MC to drag their feet? I don't know that the bolded sentence feels incomplete so much as the general picture of this scene. Where is the character's state of mind that they are focing from bed and dragging feet downt he hall? Maybe explore ways to fill that part of the image out?)*
This will also make more sense once I reference her late nights. and help flesh out her grogginess 

*“*_Yeah, I’d say so. Pretty sure they have to legally disclose a death.”
“I thought that’s only if you were buying a house.”
Her eyes wandered off. “Yeah, I think you’re right,” she said with a smile. “They probably don’t know then._*” (There may be a good reason for this exchange to be this way, but as it is, it feels weird to me that the mom is getting corrected by her kid about the rules of death disclosures. Maybe this is a parent who's child has had to take on a responsibility role or something though...if it's consistent with your characters, disregard my note-It just read odd to me.)
*Lol AGAIN, I thought about this in the back of my mind but set it aside. I have pointed things out to my mom before so I was kinda like ehhh. But I think I will change it
*
Overall, it read pretty easily and was interesting. It left me wondering what happened to the last people in the other apartment and also curious about the mom. I thought the exchange about age at the end of your passage was fun.
*
Thank you. I will work on fleshing out some sentences and make what's going on clearer to the reader. That's the hard part ist it? not info dumping but writing enough so your reading knows whats going on. As the writer, you know what's going on but gotta be sure to ACTUALLY WRITE IT lol (that's my problem, I assume the reader can tell what's going on based on the bit I wrote when in reality, it's not enough info) I also need to quit ignoring the _ich _I get when somethings off lol.\
 the exchange about the age is something that would happen with my mom when i was younger. I'd be 8 or however old and my mom would say "little girl" or "little boy" and then I'd realize she was talking about a teenager. to be fair when they are around 18/ early twenties she says "young kid" lol


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> *1/* I woke up to the sound of multiple thuds and a couple of expletives. I yanked the cover over my head, convincing myself it would absorb the racket. *2/* When I heard another loud bang and continuous stomping, I knew it was over.



*1/* What's the difference between 'multiple thuds' and the pluralised 'thuds'? 'There were multiple ducks on the pond' v 'There were ducks on the pond'. What's the difference between those images? *2/* Picky point but I'd consider 'continued' there. It's punchier, as well as tying it to the first sentence better. 



KeganThompson said:


> *1/ *I threw the blanket off my head and tried to open my eyes. Clumps of mascara caked my lashes, forcing my lids together. I should’ve washed my face before bed last night. *2/ *I scraped the debris from my eyes, pulling out a few lashes in the process.



*1/* If your eye lids are stuck together and you're trying to prize them open, then the force isn't acting upon your lids, you are pulling against the stickiness. *2/* This is a large image for what would be an intricate and delicate task. 



KeganThompson said:


> * Picking up my phone from the nightstand, I groaned. It was 10:08 a.m. on a Saturday.  *I heard voices outside my bedroom walls but couldn’t decipher the words until--
> “No, You need to turn it that way...No! the other way!” _Ah, the joys of living in an apartment complex._
> *I forced myself out of bed, stepping over the strewn clothes on my floor.* I dragged my feet down the hall and into the living room. Mom had her cheek against the door and an eye looking out the peephole.



You've turned a verb into an adjective here and so gained one unwanted adjective and lost one decent verb. Action is the name of the game so:* 'I forced myself out of bed, stepping over clothes strewn across the floor.' *'across' is a broader word and feels more messy. 'on' focuses the word while 'strewn' tries to spread it about. 


KeganThompson said:


> “New neighbors?” I mumbled.
> Mom turned her head to look at me. “Yep, looks like they finally rented out the apartment across the hall.”
> “You think they know about the last people who lived there?”
> “Yeah, I’d say so. Pretty sure they have to legally disclose a death.”
> “I thought that’s only if you were buying a house.”
> Her eyes wandered off. “Yeah, I think you’re right,” she said with a smile. “They probably don’t know then.”



I can see you're trying to fight the urge to put the description before the dialogue.  Think of it this way: In order to avoid using 'said' and 'asked' constantly, people often put in little actions. Those actions (body language) emphasise something about what was said or tell us a little more about the character. Chances are, if you've got descriptions before the dialogue, it's a sign you needed another paragraph before the dialogue. At the moment you're thinking about the action before what is said. Consider the action during and immediately after what is said. Not in all cases of course. Just to get your mind on that habit. 



KeganThompson said:


> *1/* I rubbed my eyes, definitely smearing the remaining coal liner and mascara everywhere. *2/* Black specks stuck to my fingertips and I whipped the dry chunks on my oversized tee.



*1/* Do you think removing 'definitely' will leave readers doubting what you said happened? *2/* I don't know what's going on here ...



KeganThompson said:


> Peeping out the hole, mom said, “Looks like they got a little boy. He’s a cutie.”
> “How old?” I asked.
> “Oh, about your age.”
> “He’s not a little boy then.”
> Mom pulled *her nose* from the door. “Well, he’s a little boy to me.”



*' "Well, he's a little boy to me," Mom said and pulled her nose from the door'* or *' "Well, he's a little boy to me." Mom pulled her nose from the door.'* or to create the idea the two are done simultaneously* ' "Well, he's a little boy to me," Mom said, pulling her nose from the door.'*



KeganThompson said:


> When my mom referenced a kid as “little” I knew that could arrange anywhere from five to early twenties.



Did you mean 'range'?



KeganThompson said:


> first sentence I highlighted, I didn't know if it should be stand alone or go with the above paragraph (also it needs some work I think)
> second bold, the sentence feels incomplete to me, like something's missing. I need to work on it but I want to indicate her room is messy.
> last bold. I'm trying to call her mom "nosy" indirectly. idk if I quite did it or not though..


----------



## KeganThompson

*1/ What's the difference between 'multiple thuds' and the pluralised 'thuds'? 'There were multiple ducks on the pond' v 'There were ducks on the pond'. What's t he difference between those images? 2/ Picky point but I'd consider 'continued' there. It's punchier, as well as tying it to the first sentence better.*

Listen...your right okay? lol I was messing with the sentence and unbeknownst to me, that happened. I didn't realize how it sounded.

*1/ If your eye lids are stuck together and you're trying to prize them open, then the force isn't acting upon your lids, you are pulling against the stickiness.*
I see what you're saying... forced is the strong word.
*2/ This is a large image for what would be an intricate and delicate task. *
I need to change it to eyelashes and not _eyes_, she is picking the clump that is keeping her lashes together using her nails to "scrape" it off, hence pulling out lashes. I chose too strong of words to describe the action. debris, eyes and scrape may not be the right words. I think I can get away with scrape if I jig the sentence a little but idk if debris would be adequate for what I'm trying to explain. I'm thinking not...

*You've turned a verb into an adjective here and so gained one unwanted adjective and lost one decent verb. Action is the name of the game so: 'I forced myself out of bed, stepping over clothes strewn across the floor.' 'across' is a broader word and feels more messy. 'on' focuses the word while 'strewn' tries to spread it about.*

I knew something was off with it. Thanks

*I can see you're trying to fight the urge to put the description before the dialogue.  Think of it this way: In order to avoid using 'said' and 'asked' constantly, people often put in little actions. Those actions (body language) emphasise something about what was said or tell us a little more about the character. Chances are, if you've got descriptions before the dialogue, it's a sign you needed another paragraph before the dialogue. At the moment you're thinking about the action before what is said. Consider the action during and immediately after what is said. Not in all cases of course. Just to get your mind on that habit.*

Yeah, I was trying to go with simple dialogue since I overdid it in some parts in my last story. okay so if the action is _before_ the dialogue it needs to be in its own line or with the dialogue but if its during the dialogue and after, its put with the dialogue line.. gotcha, I will work on that. (hopefully, my punctuation is getting better at least but idk maybe not)

*1/*_ I rubbed my eyes, definitely smearing the remaining coal liner and mascara everywhere._* 1/ Do you think removing 'definitely' will leave readers doubting what you said happened?  *I added_ definitely _for narration purposes like _oh shit I definitely smeared my makeup_. but I see it doesn't work and if I want to put in_ definitely_ I need to do like how I did with: _Ah, the joys of living in an apartment complex._
*2/ I don't know what's going on here ...   2/* _Black specks stuck to my fingertips and I whipped the dry chunks on my oversized tee._
I could be wrong but...I'm assuming you've never worn mascara before. When you rub your eyes, especially if they are watery, the dry clumps gets on your fingers. dry mascara crumbles and smears when you rub your eyes. I will try to explain it more/better but I hope it makes sense now... "chunks" might not be quite the right word.

*Did you mean 'range'? *yes-just like how I meant "strands" and not "strains" and "shudder" and not "shutter" LOOL. Don't ask me why I miss type sometimes and not notice it...I think I need to get a program that reads aloud for me...

okay, I have quite bit of work to do. I liked what I had, I just knew it was a bit "bare bones" and some elements needed to be worked on. Thank you, I will start working on it!


----------



## Ajoy

KeganThompson said:


> *1/*_ I rubbed my eyes, definitely smearing the remaining coal liner and mascara everywhere._* 1/ Do you think removing 'definitely' will leave readers doubting what you said happened?  *I added_ definitely _for narration purposes like _oh shit I definitely smeared my makeup_. but I see it doesn't work and if I want to put in_ definitely_ I need to do like how I did with: _Ah, the joys of living in an apartment complex._
> *2/ I don't know what's going on here ...   2/* _Black specks stuck to my fingertips and I whipped the dry chunks on my oversized tee._
> I could be wrong but...I'm assuming you've never worn mascara before. When you rub your eyes, especially if they are watery, the dry clumps gets on your fingers. dry mascara crumbles and smears when you rub your eyes. I will try to explain it more/better but I hope it makes sense now... "chunks" might not be quite the right word.


For me, the use of 'definitely' came through the way you intended-the internal word inserted to say despite not being in front of a mirror, your MC knew, from experience, that the rubbing action was smearing under her eyes. Without the word definitely, it actually sounds more certain phrased that way, as if the smear is a certainty given from narrator to reader. But it's an assumption by the MC from experience and the word definitely eludes to that assumption.

Also, as a fellow mascara wearer, I did understand the description of the clumps and the specks, etc. (Though I'm sure you'll find a way to make it more universally understood.)


----------



## KeganThompson

Ajoy said:


> For me, the use of 'definitely' came through the way you intended-the internal word inserted to say despite not being in front of a mirror, your MC knew, from experience, that the rubbing action was smearing under her eyes. Without the word definitely, it actually sounds more certain phrased that way, as if the smear is a certainty given from narrator to reader. But it's an assumption by the MC from experience and the word definitely eludes to that assumption.
> 
> Also, as a fellow mascara wearer, I did understand the description of the clumps and the specks, etc. (Though I'm sure you'll find a way to make it more universally understood.)


Okay thank you. Good to know!
Yeah, I want everyone to be able to read it and get the context of what's going on regardless if they wear mascara or not. So I going to play with it and see if there is a way I can phrase it so it can be easier to understand to the non makeup/ mascara wearer


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> *1/ What's the difference between 'multiple thuds' and the pluralised 'thuds'? 'There were multiple ducks on the pond' v 'There were ducks on the pond'. What's t he difference between those images? 2/ Picky point but I'd consider 'continued' there. It's punchier, as well as tying it to the first sentence better.*
> 
> Listen...your right okay? lol I was messing with the sentence and unbeknownst to me, that happened. I didn't realize how it sounded.
> 
> *1/ If your eye lids are stuck together and you're trying to prize them open, then the force isn't acting upon your lids, you are pulling against the stickiness.*
> I see what you're saying... forced is the strong word.
> *2/ This is a large image for what would be an intricate and delicate task. *
> I need to change it to eyelashes and not _eyes_, she is picking the clump that is keeping her lashes together using her nails to "scrape" it off, hence pulling out lashes. I chose too strong of words to describe the action. debris, eyes and scrape may not be the right words. I think I can get away with scrape if I jig the sentence a little but idk if debris would be adequate for what I'm trying to explain. I'm thinking not...
> 
> *You've turned a verb into an adjective here and so gained one unwanted adjective and lost one decent verb. Action is the name of the game so: 'I forced myself out of bed, stepping over clothes strewn across the floor.' 'across' is a broader word and feels more messy. 'on' focuses the word while 'strewn' tries to spread it about.*
> 
> I knew something was off with it. Thanks
> 
> *I can see you're trying to fight the urge to put the description before the dialogue.  Think of it this way: In order to avoid using 'said' and 'asked' constantly, people often put in little actions. Those actions (body language) emphasise something about what was said or tell us a little more about the character. Chances are, if you've got descriptions before the dialogue, it's a sign you needed another paragraph before the dialogue. At the moment you're thinking about the action before what is said. Consider the action during and immediately after what is said. Not in all cases of course. Just to get your mind on that habit.*
> 
> Yeah, I was trying to go with simple dialogue since I overdid it in some parts in my last story. okay so if the action is _before_ the dialogue it needs to be in its own line or with the dialogue but if its during the dialogue and after, its put with the dialogue line.. gotcha, I will work on that. (hopefully, my punctuation is getting better at least but idk maybe not)
> 
> *1/*_ I rubbed my eyes, definitely smearing the remaining coal liner and mascara everywhere._* 1/ Do you think removing 'definitely' will leave readers doubting what you said happened?  *I added_ definitely _for narration purposes like _oh shit I definitely smeared my makeup_. but I see it doesn't work and if I want to put in_ definitely_ I need to do like how I did with: _Ah, the joys of living in an apartment complex._
> *2/ I don't know what's going on here ...   2/* _Black specks stuck to my fingertips and I whipped the dry chunks on my oversized tee._
> I could be wrong but...I'm assuming you've never worn mascara before. When you rub your eyes, especially if they are watery, the dry clumps gets on your fingers. dry mascara crumbles and smears when you rub your eyes. I will try to explain it more/better but I hope it makes sense now... "chunks" might not be quite the right word.
> 
> *Did you mean 'range'? *yes-just like how I meant "strands" and not "strains" and "shudder" and not "shutter" LOOL. Don't ask me why I miss type sometimes and not notice it...I think I need to get a program that reads aloud for me...
> 
> okay, I have quite bit of work to do. I liked what I had, I just knew it was a bit "bare bones" and some elements needed to be worked on. Thank you, I will start working on it!


_I whipped the dry chunks on my oversized tee_

Do you mean T-shirt? Whipped and chunks make her eyes the size of dustbin lids!


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> _I whipped the dry chunks on my oversized tee_
> 
> Do you mean T-shirt? Whipped and chunks make her eyes the size of dustbin lids!


here in good ol' 'merica. it is completely acceptable to say tee... mhhh well....should've I just said T? I could've sworn I read Tee when referencing a T-shirt.  _literally looks it up_

tee​1
[ tee ]SHOW IPA

noun
the letter T or t.
something shaped like a T, as a three-way joint used in fitting pipes together.
T-bar.
*T-shirt*.
the mark aimed at in various games, as curling.

Welp seems acceptable to me...


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> here in good ol' 'merica. it is completely acceptable to say tee... mhhh well....should've I just said T? I could've sworn I read Tee when referencing a T-shirt.  _literally looks it up_
> 
> tee​1
> [ tee ]SHOW IPA
> 
> noun
> the letter T or t.
> something shaped like a T, as a three-way joint used in fitting pipes together.
> T-bar.
> *T-shirt*.
> the mark aimed at in various games, as curling.
> 
> Welp seems acceptable to me...


Yeah, that's how you spell the letter 'tee'. But if you're referring to a T-shirt and not a tee, which is the little thing you stick in the ground to put your golf ball on, to stop any confusion, you'd use the full T-shirt. I have never ever heard a T-shirt referred to as 'tee'. Even when I went to America, there were stalls selling 'T-shirts'.






						T-Shirts for Men | Tank Tops | American Apparel
					


The best t-shirts for men online are here. Discover the season’s most-wanted styles. T-shirts + tanks for every occasion: workouts, weekends + more.





					americanapparel.com


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> Yeah, that's how you spell the letter 'tee'. But if you're referring to a T-shirt and not a tee, which is the little thing you stick in the ground to put your golf ball on, to stop any confusion, you'd use the full T-shirt. I have never ever heard a T-shirt referred to as 'tee'. Even when I went to America, there were stalls selling 'T-shirts'.


Correct but I checked and an alternative way to spell t-shirt is tee-shirt. You are right though, we don't usually write tee-shirt it's t-shirt/T-shirt but if you are shorting it and using _slang_, it's written as "tee."
I checked and verified that is how you write the slang for t-shirt (because just writing "t" didn't seem right.) I see what you are saying but based on the MC's age, the current slang, the context of the sentence, and the "target audience" ( because I like to read and write YA) it is to be assumed its a t-shirt and not the lil peg you put in the ground for golf. 
therefore, I respectfully disagree and plan to keep it as "tee"
It can be argued since slang changes often especially internet slang, it might be best to have it as t-shirt. But for now, I shall leave it.


----------



## Riptide

Okay, hear me out. I have an issue. Or, idk, I get multiple people saying they either ike my fighting scenes or I need to do better. So, here's a fighting scene. I cut out some of the extra stuff, but here's the fighting, and this will be a fantasy with a lot of fighting so I want to get it right earlier on before I get too deep into it

--
Kyra dove out of the way as a meaty fist slammed down. The ogre was at least twenty feet tall. She rolled behind a boulder. Dez charged the creatures ankles, bashing them head on with his shield. The ogre doubled over with a slew of incoherent grunts in a language long dead. It howled, swatting at Dez who deflected the first blow with his shield. He jabbed it with his long sword, but it glanced off its cracked, rough skin. He continued parring the blows.

After holstering her saber, Kyra scrambled up the boulder until she was eye-level to it.
...
As they stared into each other’s eyes, it grabbed the femur of one of its earlier meals. It hit her with a deafening roar, splattering spittle and mushy globs of chewed fat, decayed between its teeth, onto her.

Kyra rocked to keep steady while Dez chopped at its heel. Reactively, it bashed against him, sending Dez into the far wall. The moment the ogre turned its back to Kyra, she dove for it. Her arms were too tiny to grasp around its pudgy neck, so she clung to its shoulders, her nails digging into its flesh. Bloody rivers flowed from her puncture holes. She freed one hand as it thrashed wildly.

“You okay, Dez?” she hollered, whipped and bucked, but her grip holding.

He shot her the thumbs-ups, rising enough to pull out his bow. His vision wobbled as three ogres and Kyra’s lurched around in the confined space. He lowered an arrow onto his bowstring and pinched it in place, pulling his elbow back, aiming with one eye. “Tell me when.”

She pulled out her saber, grasped it lightly by the handle, and the next time the creature screamed out, she plunged it into one of its jiggling tummy pouches. It threw its head back as she twisted the blade, removing it. She let the saber drop; using her newly freed fingers, she clawed at its open mouth, keeping its neck snapped back. A sweat broke on her brow.

“Now!”

He loosed the arrow into the soft underside of its throat. When it hit, he already had another arrow removed from his quiver, drawn back, and freed. Kyra slid her fingers from its mouth to its nose, where she hooked inside the nostrils and dropped from its back. It choked on the surge of blood that swelled out of its throat. She thought heavy thoughts as she pulled down. The ogre gurgled and they toppled back. She hit the ground with her ankles, propelling herself into a backwards roll as the ogre followed.
--


----------



## JBF

Riptide said:


> Kyra dove out of the way as a meaty fist slammed down. The ogre was at least twenty feet tall. She rolled behind a boulder. Dez charged the creatures ankles, bashing them head on with his shield. The ogre doubled over with a slew of incoherent grunts in a language long dead. It howled, swatting at Dez who deflected the first blow with his shield. He jabbed it with his long sword, but it glanced off its cracked, rough skin. He continued parring the blows.



First piece of advice: don't write fights like they're turn-based;  X can't do this while Y does that and Z does the other.  All this stuff has to be happening at once.  The description needs to be detailed enough to provide a clear picture and sufficiently dynamic that it doesn't bog down.  The are several tricks you'll have to pull off at once if this is to fly. 

Forgive me what may be a presumptive act.  I'll take a crack at what you have here.

_Kyra dove for cover as the meaty fist came down.  From her shelter behind a boulder she felt the ogre's roar rattle her teeth.  A big one.  Twenty feet tall, at least, grunting and screaming in a language long dead as Dez worked at the thick ankles with shield and sword.  The heavy fist swung again and he ducked, up and swinging as the knotted fingers passed him by._

Less telling us where things are on the stage.  More showing what's happening.  Beware the "...and then...and then...and then" tendency.  Nothing lets the air out of a good fight like staccato narration. 



Riptide said:


> After holstering her saber, Kyra scrambled up the boulder until she was eye-level to it.



_Sheathed _her saber. 

Eye-level to what?  The ogre, we assume.  Probably not the boulder.  Use this opportunity to describe the opponent. 



Riptide said:


> ...
> As they stared into each other’s eyes, it grabbed the femur of one of its earlier meals. It hit her with a deafening roar, splattering spittle and mushy globs of chewed fat, decayed between its teeth, onto her.



Show/tell again.  Don't _hit _her with the femur. Have her wincing against the sudden wall of waxy fat, rotted meat, and death-breath that this thing is spraying at her. Then, when she's focused on keeping her feet, have her feel the numbing impact as the bone crunches against her (presumably) armored side and knocks her away.



Riptide said:


> Kyra rocked to keep steady while Dez chopped at its heel. Reactively, it bashed against him, sending Dez into the far wall. The moment the ogre turned its back to Kyra, she dove for it. Her arms were too tiny to grasp around its pudgy neck, so she clung to its shoulders, her nails digging into its flesh. Bloody rivers flowed from her puncture holes. She freed one hand as it thrashed wildly.



Couple of things. 

A more or less human-shaped critter standing twenty feet tall is going to have one hell of a mean left hook, especially swinging a club.  If all it does is rock her a little, we've got problems.  If she's still on her feet at all...we've got major problems.  Think guy-punting-a-watermelon levels of calamity.  Right now said ogre is fighting two opponents less than half its size.  It's powerful, but slow, and if it makes contact it ought to bring some hurt. 

Her clawing the skin is somewhat at odds with the prior description.  A scaled-up human-shaped monster is probably going to have hide more akin to an elephant.  Unless she's got steel fingernail extensions she's about as much threat as a mosquito. 




Riptide said:


> He shot her the thumbs-ups, rising enough to pull out his bow. His vision wobbled as three ogres and Kyra’s lurched around in the confined space. He lowered an arrow onto his bowstring and pinched it in place, pulling his elbow back, aiming with one eye. “Tell me when.”



Thumbs-up has been around for a while, but generally doesn't seem to carry any kind of affirmative meaning until around World War I. 

Potentially head-hopping in the following two sentences is sort of a grey area.  Some like it, some hate it.  Most seem to agree it's difficult to do well.  You may also want to look into archery and its terminology (the motion described here is known as 'nocking' an arrow) to give a little more grounded feel when characters are handling weaponry. 

People like me will hound you mercilessly on that last. 




Riptide said:


> She pulled out her saber, grasped it lightly by the handle, and the next time the creature screamed out, she plunged it into one of its jiggling tummy pouches. It threw its head back as she twisted the blade, removing it. She let the saber drop; using her newly freed fingers, she clawed at its open mouth, keeping its neck snapped back. A sweat broke on her brow.



I'd avoid 'tummy pouches'.  The image comes across, though the tone seems off for a life-or-death fight. 

I'm also having to suspend some disbelief that a normal-sized human could physically hold back the head of a monster three or four times their own size. 




Riptide said:


> He loosed the arrow into the soft underside of its throat.



Trickery.  I dig it. 



Riptide said:


> When it hit, he already had another arrow removed from his quiver, drawn back, and freed.



Some odd timing going on here. 



Riptide said:


> Kyra slid her fingers from its mouth to its nose, where she hooked inside the nostrils and dropped from its back.



Pretty good drop, that.  Fifteen, twenty feet from the top of the ogre to the ground.  That's gonna hurt. 



Riptide said:


> She thought heavy thoughts as she pulled down. The ogre gurgled and they toppled back. She hit the ground with her ankles, propelling herself into a backwards roll as the ogre followed.



What's she pulling on?  In the sentence prior she's broken free of a mortally-wounded ogre.  Considering it's probably coming down (soon, and fast) her best bet would be opening the distance so she doesn't wind up a pancake. 

How does she hit the ground with her ankles?  Short of lacking feet I'm a little confused as to how this is supposed to work. 

Finally, physics.  A wounded/dying organism losing its footing and fine motor skills won't make a dramatic fall - it'll drop like a bag of wet sand.  There's also the concern of just how mortally wounded said ogre might be; even if in the process of drowning in its own blood it's still got a couple of minutes to flail around.  Desperation might make it more dangerous yet. 

***

So a few things that might warrant a look. 

_- To effectively write a fight scene you need to establish some ground rules.  How close are we hewing to physics and physiology?  Nothing wrong with a story where pulp-styled action takes precedence over realism, so long as its made clear early on.  If by turns you're going for a higher level of practicality, it's going to look odd if your heroes fully recover overnight at the local tavern. 

- Understand the combatants.  Each needs unique strengths and weaknesses.  If, for instance, your target is a large-but-ungainly cyclops who has good vision, lousy hearing, and sleeps fourteen hours a day...your merry band should probably wait until he goes to sleep and kill him in his dim and cramped cave rather than trying to fight him outside in daylight where he can make better use of his strengths.  A smart fighter will wait until conditions are most favorable before attacking and avoid potential bloodletting when possible.

- Have a working grasp of the weapons used.  Why do the heroes use particular types of hardware?  Does it fit the nominal era of the setting?  What are the advantages of drawbacks?  A pikeman won't be much good in a barfight, but you won't stop a cavalry advance without him.  Learn the terminology and anatomy of the chosen weaponry.  Chances are there's a scholar somewhere who has a youtube video that'll tell you all about where this type of blade originated, how it was used, and why. 

- Keep consistent.  A character who's out of arrows/bolts in one sentence shouldn't be shooting in the next.  A fighter who just took a dislocating strike to their sword arm won't be cleanly lopping off the baddies' heads.  Armor is heavy and affects movement, so a character wearing plate is going to be exhausted after the battle, broiling in the summer, and colder than cold in the winter. 

- Account for character mentality.  Experienced fighters will handle themselves better by dint of experience, but don't underestimate the cocktail of adrenaline, fear, and anger.  There's a reason 'berserker rage' isn't associated with clearheaded tactical thought._

...I've probably soaked up enough of your time for now.  Suffice it say this is one of those rabbit-hole subjects where one writer can't possibly know it all and there's no such thing as too much research.


----------



## Phil Istine

Riptide said:


> Okay, hear me out. I have an issue. Or, idk, I get multiple people saying they either ike my fighting scenes or I need to do better. So, here's a fighting scene. I cut out some of the extra stuff, but here's the fighting, and this will be a fantasy with a lot of fighting so I want to get it right earlier on before I get too deep into it
> 
> --
> Kyra dove out of the way as a meaty fist slammed down. The ogre was at least twenty feet tall. (Maybe swap first two sentences around) She rolled behind a boulder. (delete this). Dez charged the creatures ankles, bashing them head on with his shield. The ogre doubled over with a slew of incoherent grunts in a language long dead (delete OR substitute 'from a long-dead language). It howled, swattinged at Dez who deflected the first blow with his shield. He jabbed it (delete) with his long sword, but it (his thrusts?) glanced off its cracked, rough skin. He continued parring the blows.
> 
> After holstering her saber, Kyra scrambled up the (a, but only if you remove earlier mention of it as suggested) boulder until she was eye-level to it.
> ...
> As they stared into each other’s eyes, it grabbed the femur of one of its earlier meals. It hit her with a deafening roar, splattering spittle and mushy globs of chewed fat, decayed between its teeth, onto her.  (This second sentence feels a little long and slightly unwieldy)
> 
> Kyra rocked to keep steady while Dez chopped at its heel. Reactively, it bashed against him, sending Dez into the far wall. The moment the ogre turned its back to Kyra, she dove for it. Her arms were too tiny to grasp around its pudgy neck, so she clung to its shoulders, her nails digging into its flesh. Bloody rivers flowed from her puncture holes. She freed one hand as it thrashed wildly.
> 
> “You okay, Dez?” she hollered, whipped and bucked, but her grip holding.
> 
> He shot her the thumbs-ups, rising enough to pull out his bow. His vision wobbled as three ogres and Kyra’s lurched around in the confined space. He lowered an arrow onto his bowstring and pinched it in place, pulling his elbow back, aiming with one eye. “Tell me when.”
> 
> She pulled out her saber, grasped it lightly by the handle, and the next time the creature screamed out, she plunged it into one of its jiggling tummy pouches. It threw its head back as she twisted the blade, removing it. She let the saber drop; using her newly freed fingers, she clawed at its open mouth, keeping its neck snapped back. A sweat broke on her brow.
> 
> “Now!”
> 
> He loosed the arrow into the soft underside of its throat. When it hit, he already had another arrow removed from his quiver, drawn back, and freed. Kyra slid her fingers from its mouth to its nose, where she hooked inside the nostrils and dropped from its back. It choked on the surge of blood that swelled out of its throat. She thought heavy thoughts as she pulled down. The ogre gurgled and they toppled back. She hit the ground with her ankles, propelling herself into a backwards roll as the ogre followed.
> --


If you wish to expand the readership beyond users of US English, dived might work better than dove, though users of other types ought to get it ( https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/dove ).

As it's a fight scene I might try to have a series of shorter sentences to help a reader feel the immediacy, even though some of the descriptions are pretty good.  I


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Riptide said:


> --
> *1/* Kyra dove out of the way as a meaty fist slammed down. *1/* The ogre was at least twenty feet tall. *1/ *She rolled behind a boulder.* 2/* Dez charged the creatures ankles, bashing them head on with his shield. *3/ *The ogre doubled over with a slew of incoherent grunts in a language long dead. *4/* It howled, swatting at Dez who deflected the first blow with his shield. *5/* He jabbed it with his long sword, but it glanced off its cracked, rough skin. *6/ *He continued parring the blows.



*1/ *These three lines feel disconnected. The second sentence provides information that stops the flow of the action between the two sentences on the outside. 'Meaty' isn't necessary, so cutting that will also speed the rhythm up. I'd want to bring that detail into the sequence to keep it moving but suggest the size and meaty with the impact. 'out of the way' slows it slightly too. Keep those words monosyllabic and quickfire. We have breathing room to add a little more detail after she rolls behind the boulder, giving us an option to add in any detail we cut earlier :* 'Kyra dove to one side as the ogre's fist slammed down, the impact shaking the ground. She quickly rolled for cover behind a boulder, and met two angry eyes 20 feet above, her own wild, fearful.' 2/ *'bashing' isn't a very exciting word to use in the middle of a fight with a giant. You can speed the first half of the sentence up by moving 'ankles' into the second half: *'Dez charged the creature, crashing into its ankle with his shield.'* *3/* Grunts are going to be incoherent anyway so that can be removed. 'with' is a bit of a soft sounding word and I'd want to lose that in this instance. I'd flip it to get round that problem and change grunted to something more fitting for a language: *'The ogre growled a long dead language and doubled over.' 4/ *Think of the flow here. The ogre has doubled over, meaning it's stooped. So when it goes to swat Dez, it'll have to be righting itself at the same time. 'swatting' in this sense usually means contact has been made. 'swiping' doesn't require contact: *'It howled as it struggled to right its balance, and swiped out at Dez, who deflected the first blow just in time with the shield.' 5/ *'jabbed' is a bit tame. He's going to be giving it all he has. I'd consider 'stabbed out' instead. It's more visceral. I don't think 'cracked' is necessary detail here. *'He stabbed out with his long sword, but it glanced off its rough hide'*. *6/ *The problem with this line is it feels like an afterthought. I'd bring it into line 5. I'd also lose 'long' to make sure I didn't double up on adjectives. I'm sure you'll have mentioned he has a long sword elsewhere in the story: *'He stabbed out with his sword, but it glanced off its rough hide, forcing him to parry more blows.' *Let's see what we've got so far:

*Kyra dove to one side as the ogre's fist slammed down, the impact shaking the ground. She quickly rolled for cover behind a boulder, and met two angry eyes 20 feet above, her own wild, fearful. Dez charged the creature, crashing into its ankle with his shield. The ogre growled a long dead language and doubled over. It howled as it struggled to right its balance, and swiped out at Dez, who deflected the first blow just in time with the shield. He stabbed out with his sword, but it glanced off its rough hide, forcing him to parry more blows.*

I'd want to tinker more but I think that is better. I'll take another look tomorrow. It's 8:25 in the morning here and I haven't slept yet!



Riptide said:


> After holstering her saber, Kyra scrambled up the boulder until she was eye-level to it.
> ...
> As they stared into each other’s eyes, it grabbed the femur of one of its earlier meals. It hit her with a deafening roar, splattering spittle and mushy globs of chewed fat, decayed between its teeth, onto her.
> 
> Kyra rocked to keep steady while Dez chopped at its heel. Reactively, it bashed against him, sending Dez into the far wall. The moment the ogre turned its back to Kyra, she dove for it. Her arms were too tiny to grasp around its pudgy neck, so she clung to its shoulders, her nails digging into its flesh. Bloody rivers flowed from her puncture holes. She freed one hand as it thrashed wildly.
> 
> “You okay, Dez?” she hollered, whipped and bucked, but her grip holding.
> 
> He shot her the thumbs-ups, rising enough to pull out his bow. His vision wobbled as three ogres and Kyra’s lurched around in the confined space. He lowered an arrow onto his bowstring and pinched it in place, pulling his elbow back, aiming with one eye. “Tell me when.”
> 
> She pulled out her saber, grasped it lightly by the handle, and the next time the creature screamed out, she plunged it into one of its jiggling tummy pouches. It threw its head back as she twisted the blade, removing it. She let the saber drop; using her newly freed fingers, she clawed at its open mouth, keeping its neck snapped back. A sweat broke on her brow.
> 
> “Now!”
> 
> He loosed the arrow into the soft underside of its throat. When it hit, he already had another arrow removed from his quiver, drawn back, and freed. Kyra slid her fingers from its mouth to its nose, where she hooked inside the nostrils and dropped from its back. It choked on the surge of blood that swelled out of its throat. She thought heavy thoughts as she pulled down. The ogre gurgled and they toppled back. She hit the ground with her ankles, propelling herself into a backwards roll as the ogre followed.
> --


----------



## Riptide

JBF said:


> First piece of advice: don't write fights like they're turn-based;  X can't do this while Y does that and Z does the other.  All this stuff has to be happening at once.  The description needs to be detailed enough to provide a clear picture and sufficiently dynamic that it doesn't bog down.  The are several tricks you'll have to pull off at once if this is to fly.
> 
> Forgive me what may be a presumptive act.  I'll take a crack at what you have here.
> 
> _Kyra dove for cover as the meaty fist came down.  From her shelter behind a boulder she felt the ogre's roar rattle her teeth.  A big one.  Twenty feet tall, at least, grunting and screaming in a language long dead as Dez worked at the thick ankles with shield and sword.  The heavy fist swung again and he ducked, up and swinging as the knotted fingers passed him by._
> 
> Less telling us where things are on the stage.  More showing what's happening.  Beware the "...and then...and then...and then" tendency.  Nothing lets the air out of a good fight like staccato narration.
> 
> 
> 
> _Sheathed _her saber.
> 
> Eye-level to what?  The ogre, we assume.  Probably not the boulder.  Use this opportunity to describe the opponent.
> 
> 
> 
> Show/tell again.  Don't _hit _her with the femur. Have her wincing against the sudden wall of waxy fat, rotted meat, and death-breath that this thing is spraying at her. Then, when she's focused on keeping her feet, have her feel the numbing impact as the bone crunches against her (presumably) armored side and knocks her away.
> 
> 
> 
> Couple of things.
> 
> A more or less human-shaped critter standing twenty feet tall is going to have one hell of a mean left hook, especially swinging a club.  If all it does is rock her a little, we've got problems.  If she's still on her feet at all...we've got major problems.  Think guy-punting-a-watermelon levels of calamity.  Right now said ogre is fighting two opponents less than half its size.  It's powerful, but slow, and if it makes contact it ought to bring some hurt.
> 
> Her clawing the skin is somewhat at odds with the prior description.  A scaled-up human-shaped monster is probably going to have hide more akin to an elephant.  Unless she's got steel fingernail extensions she's about as much threat as a mosquito.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thumbs-up has been around for a while, but generally doesn't seem to carry any kind of affirmative meaning until around World War I.
> 
> Potentially head-hopping in the following two sentences is sort of a grey area.  Some like it, some hate it.  Most seem to agree it's difficult to do well.  You may also want to look into archery and its terminology (the motion described here is known as 'nocking' an arrow) to give a little more grounded feel when characters are handling weaponry.
> 
> People like me will hound you mercilessly on that last.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd avoid 'tummy pouches'.  The image comes across, though the tone seems off for a life-or-death fight.
> 
> I'm also having to suspend some disbelief that a normal-sized human could physically hold back the head of a monster three or four times their own size.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trickery.  I dig it.
> 
> 
> 
> Some odd timing going on here.
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty good drop, that.  Fifteen, twenty feet from the top of the ogre to the ground.  That's gonna hurt.
> 
> 
> 
> What's she pulling on?  In the sentence prior she's broken free of a mortally-wounded ogre.  Considering it's probably coming down (soon, and fast) her best bet would be opening the distance so she doesn't wind up a pancake.
> 
> How does she hit the ground with her ankles?  Short of lacking feet I'm a little confused as to how this is supposed to work.
> 
> Finally, physics.  A wounded/dying organism losing its footing and fine motor skills won't make a dramatic fall - it'll drop like a bag of wet sand.  There's also the concern of just how mortally wounded said ogre might be; even if in the process of drowning in its own blood it's still got a couple of minutes to flail around.  Desperation might make it more dangerous yet.
> 
> ***
> 
> So a few things that might warrant a look.
> 
> _- To effectively write a fight scene you need to establish some ground rules.  How close are we hewing to physics and physiology?  Nothing wrong with a story where pulp-styled action takes precedence over realism, so long as its made clear early on.  If by turns you're going for a higher level of practicality, it's going to look odd if your heroes fully recover overnight at the local tavern.
> 
> - Understand the combatants.  Each needs unique strengths and weaknesses.  If, for instance, your target is a large-but-ungainly cyclops who has good vision, lousy hearing, and sleeps fourteen hours a day...your merry band should probably wait until he goes to sleep and kill him in his dim and cramped cave rather than trying to fight him outside in daylight where he can make better use of his strengths.  A smart fighter will wait until conditions are most favorable before attacking and avoid potential bloodletting when possible.
> 
> - Have a working grasp of the weapons used.  Why do the heroes use particular types of hardware?  Does it fit the nominal era of the setting?  What are the advantages of drawbacks?  A pikeman won't be much good in a barfight, but you won't stop a cavalry advance without him.  Learn the terminology and anatomy of the chosen weaponry.  Chances are there's a scholar somewhere who has a youtube video that'll tell you all about where this type of blade originated, how it was used, and why.
> 
> - Keep consistent.  A character who's out of arrows/bolts in one sentence shouldn't be shooting in the next.  A fighter who just took a dislocating strike to their sword arm won't be cleanly lopping off the baddies' heads.  Armor is heavy and affects movement, so a character wearing plate is going to be exhausted after the battle, broiling in the summer, and colder than cold in the winter.
> 
> - Account for character mentality.  Experienced fighters will handle themselves better by dint of experience, but don't underestimate the cocktail of adrenaline, fear, and anger.  There's a reason 'berserker rage' isn't associated with clearheaded tactical thought._
> 
> ...I've probably soaked up enough of your time for now.  Suffice it say this is one of those rabbit-hole subjects where one writer can't possibly know it all and there's no such thing as too much research.


Oh sweet! Man, thanks for this. I really need to study up on some of these styles. I do include some of the beasts looks in the '...' after she stares eye-level to the beast. I cut it from the workshop because I didn't want that being critique, just the fighting. Thank you so much!


Phil Istine said:


> If you wish to expand the readership beyond users of US English, dived might work better than dove, though users of other types ought to get it ( https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/dove ).
> 
> As it's a fight scene I might try to have a series of shorter sentences to help a reader feel the immediacy, even though some of the descriptions are pretty good.  I


For sure, shorter sentences are sweeter, after all. I need to remember to include them more often in fight scenes. Thank you for your line edits! Super helpful


TheMightyAz said:


> *1/ *These three lines feel disconnected. The second sentence provides information that stops the flow of the action between the two sentences on the outside. 'Meaty' isn't necessary, so cutting that will also speed the rhythm up. I'd want to bring that detail into the sequence to keep it moving but suggest the size and meaty with the impact. 'out of the way' slows it slightly too. Keep those words monosyllabic and quickfire. We have breathing room to add a little more detail after she rolls behind the boulder, giving us an option to add in any detail we cut earlier :* 'Kyra dove to one side as the ogre's fist slammed down, the impact shaking the ground. She quickly rolled for cover behind a boulder, and met two angry eyes 20 feet above, her own wild, fearful.' 2/ *'bashing' isn't a very exciting word to use in the middle of a fight with a giant. You can speed the first half of the sentence up by moving 'ankles' into the second half: *'Dez charged the creature, crashing into its ankle with his shield.'* *3/* Grunts are going to be incoherent anyway so that can be removed. 'with' is a bit of a soft sounding word and I'd want to lose that in this instance. I'd flip it to get round that problem and change grunted to something more fitting for a language: *'The ogre growled a long dead language and doubled over.' 4/ *Think of the flow here. The ogre has doubled over, meaning it's stooped. So when it goes to swat Dez, it'll have to be righting itself at the same time. 'swatting' in this sense usually means contact has been made. 'swiping' doesn't require contact: *'It howled as it struggled to right its balance, and swiped out at Dez, who deflected the first blow just in time with the shield.' 5/ *'jabbed' is a bit tame. He's going to be giving it all he has. I'd consider 'stabbed out' instead. It's more visceral. I don't think 'cracked' is necessary detail here. *'He stabbed out with his long sword, but it glanced off its rough hide'*. *6/ *The problem with this line is it feels like an afterthought. I'd bring it into line 5. I'd also lose 'long' to make sure I didn't double up on adjectives. I'm sure you'll have mentioned he has a long sword elsewhere in the story: *'He stabbed out with his sword, but it glanced off its rough hide, forcing him to parry more blows.' *Let's see what we've got so far:
> 
> *Kyra dove to one side as the ogre's fist slammed down, the impact shaking the ground. She quickly rolled for cover behind a boulder, and met two angry eyes 20 feet above, her own wild, fearful. Dez charged the creature, crashing into its ankle with his shield. The ogre growled a long dead language and doubled over. It howled as it struggled to right its balance, and swiped out at Dez, who deflected the first blow just in time with the shield. He stabbed out with his sword, but it glanced off its rough hide, forcing him to parry more blows.*
> 
> I'd want to tinker more but I think that is better. I'll take another look tomorrow. It's 8:25 in the morning here and I haven't slept yet!


Always a pleasure to get your input. I need my fighting scenes to read smoother, just like this. Appreciate the explanations.


You guys are so awesome. I gotta give it a good look, but with these three impressive edits, I think I can try it out again. Round two.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Riptide said:


> Oh sweet! Man, thanks for this. I really need to study up on some of these styles. I do include some of the beasts looks in the '...' after she stares eye-level to the beast. I cut it from the workshop because I didn't want that being critique, just the fighting. Thank you so much!
> 
> For sure, shorter sentences are sweeter, after all. I need to remember to include them more often in fight scenes. Thank you for your line edits! Super helpful
> 
> Always a pleasure to get your input. I need my fighting scenes to read smoother, just like this. Appreciate the explanations.
> 
> 
> You guys are so awesome. I gotta give it a good look, but with these three impressive edits, I think I can try it out again. Round two.


Sorry I didn't get around to going through the second half. Having looked through, I think you've got what you need from myself and JBF.


----------



## KeganThompson

Here I am- bringing this thread back to life (I had to go to page 2 on the writing discussion forums) Anywho. Haven't been up to typing docs, so I've just been scribbling some things here and there. Here is a small scene/ description I've been visualizing in my head while brainstorming a new project...

Wheels glided along the pavement. The wind brushed my back as the kid on the skateboard flew past me. I looked to the right, he was already several feet away. With nowhere to turn but the main road, he circled the lot, giving himself momentum as he went. For a second our eyes met and he did a flip before hooking around the apartment building, going out of sight.-- comma or no comma? feel like the comma gives the effect I want but I'm good at comma splicing. also did I use the right "effect"? could never get those right


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Here I am- bringing this thread back to life (I had to go to page 2 on the writing discussion forums) Anywho. Haven't been up to typing docs, so I've just been scribbling some things here and there. Here is a small scene/ description I've been visualizing in my head while brainstorming a new project...
> 
> *1/* Wheels glided along the pavement. *2/* The wind brushed my back as the kid on the skateboard flew past me. *3/* I looked to the right, he was already several feet away. With nowhere to turn but the main road, he circled the lot, giving himself momentum as he went. *4/ *For a second our eyes met and he did a flip before hooking around the apartment building, going out of sight.-- comma or no comma? feel like the comma gives the effect I want but I'm good at comma splicing. also did I use the right "effect"? could never get those right


*1/* I'm not sure about the word 'glided' for wheels. That suggest at least a little distance between the wheels and the pavement. If you didn't mean 'skidded' or 'slid', then I'm not certain of the image you're trying to evoke. *2/* Remember I spoke about an 'assumed state' that also helps decide on using 'the' or 'a'? 'The wind' is an assumed state which makes it OK to use 'the' before introducing it. The problem here is, I think you wanted the impression of a draught caused by the kid on his skateboard. This is case of NOT being an assumed state. It's not every day someone whizzes by on a skateboard. In this case I'd use 'a wind' in order to differentiate from the assumed state. It's a particular wind caused by the boy. It should be 'a kid' though. We haven't met him yet. *3/* This is two separate sentences, unless you add 'When' at the beginning.* 4/* 'going out of sight' is a tad awkward. You can use a comma or 'and'. In this case I'd write *'... hooking around the apartment building and disappearing from view.' *


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> *1/* I'm not sure about the word 'glided' for wheels. That suggest at least a little distance between the wheels and the pavement. If you didn't mean 'skidded' or 'slid', then I'm not certain of the image you're trying to evoke. *2/* Remember I spoke about an 'assumed state' that also helps decide on using 'the' or 'a'? 'The wind' is an assumed state which makes it OK to use 'the' before introducing it. The problem here is, I think you wanted the impression of a draught caused by the kid on his skateboard. This is case of NOT being an assumed state. It's not every day someone whizzes by on a skateboard. In this case I'd use 'a wind' in order to differentiate from the assumed state. It's a particular wind caused by the boy. It should be 'a kid' though. We haven't met him yet. *3/* This is two separate sentences, unless you add 'When' at the beginning.* 4/* 'going out of sight' is a tad awkward. You can use a comma or 'and'. In this case I'd write *'... hooking around the apartment building and disappearing from view.' *


I originally had rolled but I feel like it wasn't depicting what I wanted either. I keep hearing the sound of skateboard heels hitting the pavement but I don't know how to accurately describe that sound or "vibe." That's why I didn't go with skid. I wanted to use a word that would represent that continuous motion. Skid doesn't do that. Slid works but l like glide better.
 Def of glide:
_move with a smooth continuous motion, typically with little noise._
Does that not work in that context? 
 And you're right about using "a" and not "the" I did think using "the" made it sound separate, like the wind and him weren't related (obviously they are) 
Out of sight is a bit awkward. It was an add on because I didn't know if I was explaining well enough that he went behind the building. But based on the previous sentences. It's assumed so. 
I do like the word "sight" instead of "veiw" because I think it emphasizes she is watching him personally. What do you think?


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> I originally had rolled but I feel like it wasn't depicting what I wanted either. I keep hearing the sound of skateboard heels hitting the pavement but I don't know how to accurately describe that sound or "vibe." That's why I didn't go with skid. I wanted to use a word that would represent that continuous motion. Skid doesn't do that. Slid works but l like glide better.
> Def of glide:
> _move with a smooth continuous motion, typically with little noise._
> Does that not work in that context?
> And you're right about using "a" and not "the" I did think using "the" made it sound separate, like the wind and him weren't related (obviously they are)
> Out of sight is a bit awkward. It was an add on because I didn't know if I was explaining well enough that he went behind the building. But based on the previous sentences. It's assumed so.
> I do like the word "sight" instead of "veiw" because I think it emphasizes she is watching him personally. What do you think?


This is a very specific image and so worth focusing in on. The small wheels on a skateboards, especially under the weight of a person, 'rumble' a little, perhaps even 'rattle' slightly when the weight is eased. But what would be the nature of that rumble? Someone moving furniture on casters in an uncarpeted room?  A ten pin bowling ball fed back to the bowler after striking the pins? It would help to establish it was a scateboard from the get go.

Yes, 'sight' does emphasize she is watching him personally ... and that's the biggest problem. It's a filter word. We don't need to be told which senses the protag is using, just what those senses are picking up. She didn't 'see' it was raining, 'it was raining'.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> This is a very specific image and so worth focusing in on. The small wheels on a skateboards, especially under the weight of a person, 'rumble' a little, perhaps even 'rattle' slightly when the weight is eased. But what would be the nature of that rumble? Someone moving furniture on casters in an uncarpeted room?  A ten pin bowling ball fed back to the bowler after striking the pins?
> 
> Yes, 'sight' does emphasize she is watching him personally ... and that's the biggest problem. It's a filter word. We don't need to be told which senses the protag is using, just what those senses are picking up. She didn't 'see' it was raining, 'it was raining'.


Yeah I will think about it. I don't want to "over explain" like I do sometimes but I still want to find the best way to capture the scene and the sound accurately

I've been tryin to be careful with using filter words since I tacked on out of sight, I wasn't thinking of it as a filter word. Might just leave it with him hooking around the building. There should be enough context to assume that but I will think about rewording it all together.

As for the beginning I will rewrite it a few ways and probably post to figure out how to best explain that opening scene. Might watch a few videos of kids skate boarding-
(Just to hear the sounds.) It's definitely a scene I want to get right. Even if it doesn't become an exact copy and paste into the story it's self later down the line. I would like this to be the first time the MC sees the character


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Yeah I will think about it. I don't want to "over explain" like I do sometimes but I still want to find the best way to capture the scene and the sound accurately
> 
> I've been tryin to be careful with using filter words since I tacked on out of sight, I wasn't thinking of it as a filter word. Might just leave it with him hooking around the building. There should be enough context to assume that but I will think about rewording it all together.
> 
> As for the beginning I will rewrite it a few ways and probably post to figure out how to best explain that opening scene. Might watch a few videos of kids skate boarding-
> (Just to hear the sounds.) It's definitely a scene I want to get right. Even if it doesn't become an exact copy and paste into the story it's self later down the line. I would like this to be the first time the MC sees the character


'The stateboard's tiny wheels rumbled under the weight of the boy as he hopped and zig-zagged across the pavement.'


----------



## JBF

KeganThompson said:


> Wheels glided along the pavement. The wind brushed my back as the kid on the skateboard flew past me. I looked to the right, he was already several feet away. With nowhere to turn but the main road, he circled the lot, giving himself momentum as he went. For a second our eyes met and he did a flip before hooking around the apartment building, going out of sight.



Remember the long-winded dissection we had on the benefits of first-person POV?  This is a dynamite opportunity to use some of that.  Don't think about how to frame this for an external camera - figure the camera is inside the N/MC's head and tell us what's happening there.  

Also, bear with me.  My knowledge of skateboarding is less than nil.  

So let's say you're cruising along.  What are you thinking about?  Probably not the wheels.  More likely you're surfing.  Watching for obstacles.  Keeping your speed up.  Making sure the world stays blue-side-up/green-side-down.  So show us what's like to ride a marginally unstable hands-free wheels contraption.  First, get your readers on the board.  

Once you've established that you can have the other skater go by.  But he probably won't _pass _you.  He'll streak by in a blur of baggy jeans and a t-shirt).  He'll cut by when you least expect him.  He'll cause you to start and almost lose balance because he's coming up on your blind side, unheard.  If you didn't know he was there, he's a surprise.  Add some bite - an unfamiliar guy on a board who pops up out of nowhere, accelerates through a circuit of the parking lot, makes split-second eye contact, and shows off for a second before zipping out of sight.  

You've got movement.  What you need here is _motion_.


----------



## KeganThompson

JBF said:


> Remember the long-winded dissection we had on the benefits of first-person POV?  This is a dynamite opportunity to use some of that.  Don't think about how to frame this for an external camera - figure the camera is inside the N/MC's head and tell us what's happening there.
> 
> Also, bear with me.  My knowledge of skateboarding is less than nil.


I think I stood on a skateboard when I was like 7 once. I didn't write about the kid skating cause I know about skating. I just like the visual. I watched a movie where a kid was skating and I liked the motion and cinematography


JBF said:


> So let's say you're cruising along.  What are you thinking about?  Probably not the wheels.  More likely you're surfing.  Watching for obstacles.  Keeping your speed up.  Making sure the world stays blue-side-up/green-side-down.  So show us what's like to ride a marginally unstable hands-free wheels contraption.  First, get your readers on the board.


That's a good suggestion only, the MC isn't on a skateboard. Tbh I'm not sure what she is doing. I was thinking of just getting out of the car with her mom or something. I'd didn't think too much about it because I was practicing my prose not _trying_ to explain everything. Just a small piece from my head. Since they are in the parking lot I could have him come from around the building then flying back around.


JBF said:


> Once you've established that you can have the other skater go by.  But he probably won't _pass _you.  He'll streak by in a blur of baggy jeans and a t-shirt).  He'll cut by when you least expect him.  He'll cause you to start and almost lose balance because he's coming up on your blind side, unheard.  If you didn't know he was there, he's a surprise.  Add some bite - an unfamiliar guy on a board who pops up out of nowhere, accelerates through a circuit of the parking lot, makes split-second eye contact, and shows off for a second before zipping out of sight.
> You've got movement.  What you need here is _motion_.


You are making a lot of assumptions about the MC when I didn't establish anything yet  But I see what you're saying. ground the beginning before introducing the kid zipping by. Glad the _showing off_ came through though


----------



## JBF

KeganThompson said:


> You are making a lot of assumptions about the MC when I didn't establish anything yet  But I see what you're saying. ground the beginning before introducing the kid zipping by. Glad the _showing off_ came through though



The manifest joys of having a short attention span.  

Now if you'll excuse me, there's something shiny in yonder trash can...


----------



## KeganThompson

JBF said:


> The manifest joys of having a short attention span.
> 
> Now if you'll excuse me, there's something shiny in yonder trash can...


I feel that. I will switch browser tabs at work and in that instant I forgot why and what I was doing...
I started working on the snippet this morning. I shall upload again when i'm done and see if its any better
_one of these days I will impress _


----------



## Matchu

That’s one of your ‘draft issues’ - the reader projecting ‘two skateboarders.’

…probably because you sound like a skateboarder [_hoh_, _snort_, _pig]._


----------



## KeganThompson

Matchu said:


> That’s one of your ‘draft issues’ - the reader projecting ‘two skateboarders.’
> 
> …probably because you sound like a skateboarder [_hoh_, _snort_, _pig]._


It was a small scene I wanted to write for practice. I wasn't thinking much about the context cuz I was focusing more on prose.
I sound like a skater? Kewl. happy to hear it


----------



## KeganThompson

***EDIT (wasn't feeling what I posted and didn't want to blow up the thread with posting nearly the same thing)

Herro~
been working on my paragraph. I added some context. Idk if I did a good job lol. So the protag's back is facing the parking lot while she digs out groceries. Idk if I'm gonna continue writing this scene and expand or just drop it and practice on something else...
*-*

I went to pull groceries out of the trunk, only to find several microwavable dinners scattered outside their bags. Mom really needed to work on her abrupt turns. I dug into the back, sticking strewn meals into nearly empty bags, a task my mother should be doing. Instead, she took time her time getting out of the car, flapping her gob on the phone.
The sound of small wheels sped along the pavement. A wind brushed my back as the kid on a skateboard flew past me. I pulled my head out of the trunk, he was already several feet away. With nowhere to turn but the main road, he shifted his weight to circle the lot. For a second our eyes met. He popped a flip, zig-zagged the blacktop before hooking around apartment building E.


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## Matchu

Hi @KT,

I quite liked your original version.  This second version reads like a chef stood over the hob.  Chef stares into his bubbling saucepan, he tastes the spoon then makes an addition of lemon juice, and salt, plus sugar, plus molasses, ginger, 2 stock cubes, and fluff also, some star anise:

_YOU 

I went to pull groceries out of the trunk, only to find several microwavable dinners outside their bags. Mom really needed to work on her abrupt turns. I dug into the back, sticking strewn meals *into nearly empty bags.*
The sound of small wheels sped along the pavement. *A *wind brushed my back. *A *kid on a skateboard zipped past, when I pulled my head out of the trunk, he was already several feet away. With nowhere to turn but the main road, *he shifted his weight to circle the lot. *For a second our eyes met. He picked up momentum and *popped* a flip, zig-zagged the blacktop before hooking around _*apartment building E.

ME

I pull groceries from the trunk/microwavable dinners trunk carpet/Mom really needed to work on her abrupt turns/boxes into bags.*

_*wheels sped along the pavement. *_*A wind brushed my back. THE kid on the skateboard zipped past/ I pulled my head out of the trunk/our eyes met./he popped a flip, zig-zagging the blacktop before hooking around apartment building E.

...*


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## KeganThompson

Matchu said:


> Hi @KT,
> 
> I quite liked your original version.  This second version reads like a chef stood over the hob.  Chef stares into his bubbling saucepan, he tastes the spoon then makes an addition of lemon juice, and salt, plus sugar, plus molasses, ginger, 2 stock cubes, and fluff also, some star anise:
> 
> _YOU
> 
> I went to pull groceries out of the trunk, only to find several microwavable dinners outside their bags. Mom really needed to work on her abrupt turns. I dug into the back, sticking strewn meals *into nearly empty bags.*
> The sound of small wheels sped along the pavement. *A *wind brushed my back. *A *kid on a skateboard zipped past, when I pulled my head out of the trunk, he was already several feet away. With nowhere to turn but the main road, *he shifted his weight to circle the lot. *For a second our eyes met. He picked up momentum and *popped* a flip, zig-zagged the blacktop before hooking around _*apartment building E.
> 
> ME
> 
> I pull groceries from the trunk/microwavable dinners trunk carpet/Mom really needed to work on her abrupt turns/boxes into bags.*
> 
> _*wheels sped along the pavement. *_*A wind brushed my back. THE kid on the skateboard zipped past/ I pulled my head out of the trunk/our eyes met./he popped a flip, zig-zagging the blacktop before hooking around apartment building E.
> 
> ...*


My rewrite is too static huh? I will take my original version and mesh it with my add ons. I did reread what I posted at the top and I do think my original flows better. I rewrote it so many times I forogt what the original one was lol. My overthinking tends to make my writing worse at times lol


----------



## Matchu

I don't know about 'static.'

Rather too many qualifiers - I thought - twenty minutes ago...

You could write it long - but then I'd want more clues that the character was a total twit:

*I went to pull groceries out of the trunk, only to find several of the microwavable dinners lay outside of their shopping bags. Mother really needed to work on her abrupt turns. I dug into this task, sticking strewn meals into the other, the nearly empty bags.  What a catastrophe.

The sound of  tiny wheels sped along the pavement. Wind brushed my back. A kid on a skateboard zipped past.  I pulled my head from the trunk, he was already threatening from several feet away. Nowhere to turn to but the main road, he shifted his weight to circle the parking lot. For a second our eyes met. He picked up momentum, he popped a flip.

'Dickhead,' he cried to somebody, you must  draw your own conclusions, and he zig-zagged the blacktop, hooking around apartment building E from my observations.

 xx - *_something like that [in progress]_


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## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> ***EDIT (wasn't feeling what I posted and didn't want to blow up the thread with posting nearly the same thing)
> 
> Herro~
> been working on my paragraph. I added some context. Idk if I did a good job lol. So the protag's back is facing the parking lot while she digs out groceries. Idk if I'm gonna continue writing this scene and expand or just drop it and practice on something else...
> *-*
> 
> *1/* I went to pull groceries out of the trunk, only to find several microwavable dinners scattered outside their bags. Mom really needed to work on her abrupt turns. *2/* I dug into the back, sticking strewn meals into nearly empty bags, a task my mother should be doing. *3/* Instead, she took time her time getting out of the car, flapping her gob on the phone.



*1/* It gets a little complicated for its own good. 'out of' could easily be 'from', 'only to find' could easily be 'and found' and 'scattered outside their bags' could easily be 'inside', and 'several' can go: * 'I went to pull groceries from the trunk and found microwave meals loose inside.'* When you shop, you don't just put what you bought in the boot. The assumed state is they're bagged. That isn't likely the sentence I would go for. I'm just pointing out how some sentences can be overthought. It's a simple action and so try to keep it simple. *2/* 'sticking' is quite colloquial and I don't think it serves the sentence well. 'strewn' is overegging it. We know they're loose and that's all we need to know. 'nearly empty'. You've said this because you're imagining the meals have left the bags and so therefore the bags must be nearly empty. 'be doing' is awkward and not a good sentence ender. You don't really need 'I dug into the back'. The action shows what he's doing and where he's doing it: *'I took the loose meals and placed them back in their bags, something my mother should have done.' 3/ *You've still got a slight tendency to want to attribute actions with what is involved with that action. If someone is talking, you don't need to tell us it's with their mouth. *'Instead, she took her time getting out of the car, flapping on the phone.' *



KeganThompson said:


> *1/ *The sound of small wheels sped along the pavement. A wind brushed my back as the kid on a skateboard flew past me. *2/* I pulled my head out of the trunk, he was already several feet away. With nowhere to turn but the main road, he shifted his weight to circle the lot. For a second our eyes met. He popped a flip, zig-zagged the blacktop before hooking around apartment building E.


*1/* Was it the sound or the wheels that 'sped' along the pavement? Taking this sentence as is, I would actually add in a filter word: *'I heard the sound of small wheels speeding along the pavement.' 2/ *This is two sentences. You can either add 'and' of start a new sentence with 'He ...' 

The red never ends! You wanna see my work. It's all RED!


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## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> *1/* It gets a little complicated for its own good. 'out of' could easily be 'from', 'only to find' could easily be 'and found' and 'scattered outside their bags' could easily be 'inside', and 'several' can go: * 'I went to pull groceries from the trunk and found microwave meals loose inside.'* When you shop, you don't just put what you bought in the boot. The assumed state is they're bagged. That isn't likely the sentence I would go for. I'm just pointing out how some sentences can be overthought. It's a simple action and so try to keep it simple. *2/* 'sticking' is quite colloquial and I don't think it serves the sentence well. 'strewn' is overegging it. We know they're loose and that's all we need to know. 'nearly empty'. You've said this because you're imagining the meals have left the bags and so therefore the bags must be nearly empty. 'be doing' is awkward and not a good sentence ender. You don't really need 'I dug into the back'. The action shows what he's doing and where he's doing it: *'I took the loose meals and placed them back in their bags, something my mother should have done.' 3/ *You've still got a slight tendency to want to attribute actions with what is involved with that action. If someone is talking, you don't need to tell us it's with their mouth. *'Instead, she took her time getting out of the car, flapping on the phone.' *


good to know I am overdoing it again. if its not under, its over...time to throw my laptop out the wind~er. I will give it one last edit and then leave it alone, so I can move on with my life


TheMightyAz said:


> *1/* Was it the sound or the wheels that 'sped' along the pavement? Taking this sentence as is, I would actually add in a filter word: *'I heard the sound of small wheels speeding along the pavement.' 2/ *This is two sentences. You can either add 'and' of start a new sentence with 'He ...'
> 
> The red never ends! You wanna see my work. It's all RED!


here I was STRUGGLING to avoid filter words AND NOW YOU TELLING ME I NEEDED ONE...killin' me.


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## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> good to know I am overdoing it again. if its not under, its over...time to through my laptop out the wind~er. I will give it one last edit and then leave it alone, so I can move on with my life
> 
> here I was STRUGGLING to avoid filter words AND NOW YOU TELLING ME I NEEDED ONE...killin' me.


That's only taking the sentence as is. I'd probably rewrite it to avoid using the filter word. Remember though, cutting words doesn't mean eradicating them entirely. Sometimes they're necessary and sometimes the sentence reads better with them included. It's a balancing act but leant heavily in favour of removing them if possible.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Which is the better option? I changed this recently and feel the change is better than the original but the problem is, I also have a repeat in the following line. In the original version (2), I always felt 'only that he endured' hung uncomfortably but with that extra beat, it sits better and feels more natural:

*1: *Yarrod wasn’t certain where he began or when he began, only that he endured. Pain gave him some comfort, some substance.
*2:* Yarrod wasn’t certain where or when he began, only that he endured. Pain gave him some comfort, some substance.


----------



## bdcharles

TheMightyAz said:


> Which is the better option? I changed this recently and feel the change is better than the original but the problem is, I also have a repeat in the following line. In the original version (2), I always felt 'only that he endured' hung uncomfortably but with that extra beat, it sits better and feels more natural:
> 
> *1: *Yarrod wasn’t certain where he began or when he began, only that he endured. Pain gave him some comfort, some substance.
> *2:* Yarrod wasn’t certain where or when he began, only that he endured. Pain gave him some comfort, some substance.


For me, they're both equally good, though they give a subtly difference sense, namely that in 1, the pace is a little slower, suggesting perhaps confusion, whereas for 2, the pace is a little quicker, suggesting perhaps agitation.

Personally, for me, the repetition of 'some' in "some comfort, some substance' ... I get it, but it wobbles me. It "reads like writing". If this was me, I might want to dial back that bit, to leave the focus on Yarrod's uncertainty in the previous sentence. My Mouse of Editing would probably remove "some substance"...


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

bdcharles said:


> For me, they're both equally good, though they give a subtly difference sense, namely that in 1, the pace is a little slower, suggesting perhaps confusion, whereas for 2, the pace is a little quicker, suggesting perhaps agitation.
> 
> Personally, for me, the repetition of 'some' in "some comfort, some substance' ... I get it, but it wobbles me. It "reads like writing". If this was me, I might want to dial back that bit, to leave the focus on Yarrod's uncertainty in the previous sentence. My Mouse of Editing would probably remove "some substance"...


Substance has changed so many times. I think you're right though. I'll probably lose it eventually. I don't think it's quite what I want it to say either to be honest. It's in the ballpark but usually, if I double up on explanations, it means I'm not certain which is best. In this case, it's that I'm not sure.

edit: I'm wondering. This is much closer to what I mean. He feels he needs to prove he's not a ghost and lives a little in each cycle for that reason. Only the scars on his body show the passing of time, nothing else. They give him substance and are symbolic of his pain:

Yarrod wasn't certain where he began or when he began, only that pain gave him substance.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Is this wrong? For some reason I always stop on this section because something doesn't feel right but I've done it so often, I'm not sure it's an actual problem. I'll highlight which bit pulls me up:

Atop his slender neck, a face that had no place there, boyish with large eyes, button nose and svelte-lipped mouth that smiled a crease at Yarrod’s scrutiny.

I keep wanting to add 'being' in there for some reason: 'Atop his slender neck, a face that had no place being there ...' But then I think of the word 'place' and it stops me adding it. Which is correct? Or are they both correct?


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Another sentence that keeps bugging me. It's the 'even though' part. Does it read right? I think this is where a good grasp of grammar and knowing the terminology would help me. I feel as if if I knew all the terminology, I'd be able to pars the problem more easily. I'm not even sure there is a problem. It's just that certain sentences like this bring me up short and make me wonder:

Even though he suffered and hungered like any other man, the similarity ended there.

I've used 'even though' in order to remove the 'but'. Originally it was 'He suffered and hungered like any other man but there the similarity ended.' What is it about the grammar in the rewritten sentence that makes me think it's wrong and why does the original sentence sound right to me?


----------



## EmmaSohan

Nice question. You have that the similarity ended "there" even though he suffered and hungered . . . But if he did not suffer and hunger, then the similarity actually would not end "there" -- it would end someplace else.


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## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> Is this wrong? For some reason I always stop on this section because something doesn't feel right but I've done it so often, I'm not sure it's an actual problem. I'll highlight which bit pulls me up:
> 
> Atop his slender neck, a face that had no place there, boyish with large eyes, button nose and svelte-lipped mouth that smiled a crease at Yarrod’s scrutiny.
> 
> I keep wanting to add 'being' in there for some reason: 'Atop his slender neck, a face that had no place being there ...' But then I think of the word 'place' and it stops me adding it. Which is correct? Or are they both correct?


I dont know what it is exactly, but it sounds awkward to me. I know what you mean, but it seems _off_? Just like my own writing, I can sense something amiss but not know how to fix it lol
So I don't have any good suggesting's for you other than try to reword the sentence in general and see if you like it better.


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## Kent_Jacobs

EmmaSohan said:


> Nice question. You have that the similarity ended "there" even though he suffered and hungered . . . But if he did not suffer and hunger, then the similarity actually would not end "there" -- it would end someplace else.


OK, so it is grammatically wrong. I've changed it back to what it was originally for now.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> I dont know what it is exactly, but it sounds awkward to me. I know what you mean, but it seems _off_? Just like my own writing, I can sense something amiss but not know how to fix it lol
> So I don't have any good suggesting's for you other than try to reword the sentence in general and see if you like it better.


I think it should be 'a face that had no right being there', which is why I keep wanting to add 'being'.


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## Taylor

I find it hard not to use cliches, mostly because they are tried and true and clearly state the emotion/message you are trying to convey.  But sometimes I can be awkward when I unpack and re-write them.  Does anyone want to take a whirl at these ones?

“You won’t regret this Claire, I _promise_,”  Maria said emphatically. 

It was not lost on Claire that she had made a promise to Maria so many years ago.  While she had tried to gain an advantage from Maria’s business, it appeared that the shoe was on the other foot now.  She wondered if Maria was thinking the same thing as she emphasized the word.


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## Phil Istine

Some thoughts from me:

(a)  Atop his slender neck, a misplaced face, boyish with large eyes, button nose and svelte-lipped mouth that smiled a crease at Yarrod’s scrutiny

(b)  For 'even though', substitute 'although'.

Just two of several possibilities?


----------



## Matchu

‘You won’t regret that, Claire.  I promise.’

No embellishments whatsoever.  You’ll be surprised what pictures are conveyed in a reader’s mind.  Trust the reader, allow them to enjoy the story in their own way.


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## Taylor

Matchu said:


> ‘You won’t regret that, Claire.  I promise.’
> 
> No embellishments whatsoever.  You’ll be surprised what pictures are conveyed in a reader’s mind.  Trust the reader, allow them to enjoy the story in their own way.


Hmm sounds good.  But are you suggesting to omit the last three sentences as well?


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## Kent_Jacobs

Phil Istine said:


> Some thoughts from me:
> 
> (a)  Atop his slender neck, a misplaced face, boyish with large eyes, button nose and svelte-lipped mouth that smiled a crease at Yarrod’s scrutiny
> 
> (b)  For 'even though', substitute 'although'.
> 
> Just two of several possibilities?


Bingo! 'Misplaced face' is perfect for my needs. It's so me. Thank you! I'll give 'although' a trialling to see how it feels.


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## KeganThompson

Taylor said:


> Hmm sounds good.  But are you suggesting to omit the last three sentences as well?


Personally I dont think you need _Marina said empathetically._ I don't know the surrounding sentences/dialogue/paragraphs but based on the phrase alone and the tag line you added, you actually don't need the tag line. The dialogue alone would stand out more by itself imo


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## Taylor

KeganThompson said:


> Personally I dont think you need _Marina said empathetically._ I don't know the surrounding sentences/dialogue/paragraphs but based on the phrase alone and the tag line you added, you actually don't need the tag line. The dialogue alone would stand out more by itself imo


Yes, I agree about the tagline.  But what about my initial question about the cliches?  Any ideas on how to re-write them?


----------



## KeganThompson

Taylor said:


> Yes, I agree about the tagline.  But what about my initial question about the cliches?  Any ideas on how to re-write them?


oh sorry I didn't see the text below the dialogue ( was looking on my phone at work lol)
i'm not the best critique-r / great at suggestions  I will have to think about it.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Taylor said:


> I find it hard not to use cliches, mostly because they are tried and true and clearly state the emotion/message you are trying to convey.  But sometimes I can be awkward when I unpack and re-write them.  Does anyone want to take a whirl at these ones?
> 
> “You won’t regret this Claire, I _promise_,”  Maria said emphatically.



You've italicised 'promise' to make sure the reader emphasises that word when they read it. With that in mind, consider the word 'emphatically' at the end of the sentence. Do you need it?  



Taylor said:


> It was not lost on Claire that she had made a promise to Maria so many years ago.  While she had tried to gain an advantage from Maria’s business, it appeared that the shoe was on the other foot now.  She wondered if Maria was thinking the same thing as she emphasized the word.


I've been staring at this for ages now. There's a fault in my thinking in that once I've set something down, I often find it difficult to see past it to change it. In this case, I'd have to take a completely different route to change the destination. I don't think the problem is the cliche, I think the problem is with the line before it, which has lead to the cliche. I'd consider rethinking that first. Other than completely rewriting it myself, I couldn't offer an alternative.


----------



## Taylor

TheMightyAz said:


> You've italicised 'promise' to make sure the reader emphasises that word when they read it. With that in mind, consider the word 'emphatically' at the end of the sentence. Do you need it?
> 
> 
> I've been staring at this for ages now. There's a fault in my thinking in that once I've set something down, I often find it difficult to see past it to change it. In this case, I'd have to take a completely different route to change the destination. I don't think the problem is the cliche, I think the problem is with the line before it, which has lead to the cliche. I'd consider rethinking that first. Other than completely rewriting it myself, I couldn't offer an alternative.


I agree full-heartedly that the first sentence was heavy-handed.    What I'm looking for is someone else to re-write it, not using the three cliches.  Can you take a crack at any of them?

“You won’t regret this, Claire. I _promise_.”

It was not lost on Claire that she had made a promise to Maria so many years ago. While she had tried to gain an advantage from Maria’s business, it appeared that the shoe was on the other foot now. She wondered if Maria was thinking the same thing as she emphasized the word.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Taylor said:


> I agree full-heartedly that the first sentence was heavy-handed.    What I'm looking for is someone else to re-write it, not using the three cliches.  Can you take a crack at any of them?
> 
> “You won’t regret this, Claire. I _promise_.”
> 
> It was not lost on Claire that she had made a promise to Maria so many years ago. While she had tried to gain an advantage from Maria’s business, it appeared that the shoe was on the other foot now. She wondered if Maria was thinking the same thing as she emphasized the word.


You're going to have to point the three cliches out. I can only really see one, which is the phrase. Other than that, nothing jumps out at me as what I would call cliched.


----------



## Matchu

Ah shucks, sorry I’m on handheld at work. I’ll return….


----------



## Taylor

TheMightyAz said:


> You're going to have to point the three cliches out. I can only really see one, which is the phrase. Other than that, nothing jumps out at me as what I would call cliched.


Well, I was thinking "You won't regret it"; "It was not lost on..." and "the shoe was on the other foot."


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Taylor said:


> Well, I was thinking "You won't regret it"; "It was not lost on..." and "the shoe was on the other foot."


OK, I nearly put those down as what I thought you meant but backed out cos I thought it might make me look stupid! lol In all honesty, one is dialogue and fine and the other isn't a great problem. I've seen that used many times in many books. I'd call it shorthand more than a clique. It read fine up until the cliched phrase. I wouldn't change it, other than losing the 'emphatically' which you have. 

It was not lost on Claire that she had made a promise to Maria so many years ago. While she had tried to gain an advantage from Maria’s business, it appeared that the shoe was on the other foot now. She wondered if Maria was thinking the same thing as she emphasized the word.

The problem with trying to rewrite this is I don't know what that problem is and don't know the advantage she gained. That's why I struggled to offer an alternative to the cliche. I'd need to know what I'm leading in with and what to expand on to rewrite the cliche. The shoe is on the other foot ... but what did the shoe look like on the first foot.  Does that make sense? I'd want to dig into the specifics of that and try to use a pithy sentence to do it. That's where the uniqueness lies.


----------



## Taylor

TheMightyAz said:


> OK, I nearly put those down as what I thought you meant but backed out cos I thought it might make me look stupid! lol In all honesty, one is dialogue and fine and the other isn't a great problem. I've seen that used many times in many books. I'd call it shorthand more than a clique. It read fine up until the cliched phrase. I wouldn't change it, other than losing the 'emphatically' which you have.
> 
> It was not lost on Claire that she had made a promise to Maria so many years ago. While she had tried to gain an advantage from Maria’s business, it appeared that the shoe was on the other foot now. She wondered if Maria was thinking the same thing as she emphasized the word.
> 
> The problem with trying to rewrite this is I don't know what that problem is and don't know the advantage she gained. That's why I struggled to offer an alternative to the cliche. I'd need to know what I'm leading in with and what to expand on to rewrite the cliche. The shoe is on the other foot ... but what did the shoe look like on the first foot.  Does that make sense? I'd want to dig into the specifics of that and try to use a pithy sentence to do it. That's where the uniqueness lies.


Ok, yes this is my fear with putting snippets of my novel on the forum.  Both issues are important to the plot and the clues as it is a suspense mystery.  It would be a spoiler if I gave you too much info.  Perhaps this is not a useful exercise.  But if I were to make something else up that would be similar,  Claire took advantage of a weakness in Maria's business, because she needed money.  Let's just say she bought up some old stock and blew it out at a heavily reduced price, and made a profit. Maria paid her the money she needed if she promised not to do it again because it hurt Maria's brand.  Now Maria wants to go into business with Claire.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Taylor said:


> Ok, yes this is my fear with putting snippets of my novel on the forum.  Both issues are important to the plot and the clues as it is a suspense mystery.  It would be a spoiler if I gave you too much info.  Perhaps this is not a useful exercise.  But if I were to make something else up that would be similar,  Claire took advantage of a weakness in Maria's business, because she needed money.  Let's just say she bought up some old stock and blew it out at a heavily reduced price, and made a profit. Maria paid her the money she needed if she promised not to do it again because it hurt Maria's brand.  Now Maria wants to go into business with Claire.


As you can see from this thread, it's not usually a great problem though. In this case it is but in most cases it's a simple matter of correctly obvious mistakes that don't need context. Your writing is pretty tight, so it makes it harder to offer advice. The only thing that was easy was the 'emphatically'. Plus, I know nothing about business! Don't invest any money in me!

*It was not lost on Claire that Maria might still hold a grudge from when she abused her business, buying up old stock and selling it off at a reduced price for profit. Maria had paid her good money in return for the promise she wouldn't do it again. Now, all these many years later, it appeared as if Maria hadn't completely forgiven her, as the emphasis on the word 'promise' suggested  *


----------



## Taylor

TheMightyAz said:


> As you can see from this thread, it's not usually a great problem though. In this case it is but in most cases it's a simple matter of correctly obvious mistakes that don't need context. Your writing is pretty tight, so it makes it harder to offer advice. The only thing that was easy was the 'emphatically'. Plus, I know nothing about business! Don't invest any money in me!
> 
> *It was not lost on Claire that Maria might still hold a grudge from when she abused her business, buying up old stock and selling it off at a reduced price for profit. Maria had paid her good money in return for the promise she wouldn't do it again. Now, all these many years later, it appeared as if Maria hadn't completely forgiven her, as the emphasis on the word 'promise' suggested  *


I like it!   I guess it's just a matter of not using the cliche, as a replacement, to sum up, the actual facts.  I find I use a lot of cliches in my writing because I use them a lot in my speech, and when listening to my inner voice they are always there.  But they say it's better to use them only sparingly, so I'm trying to break the habit, albeit very hard.  Thanks for the re-write AZ.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Taylor said:


> I like it!   I guess it's just a matter of not using the cliche, as a replacement, to sum up, the actual facts.  I find I use a lot of cliches in my writing because I use them a lot in my speech, and when listening to my inner voice they are always there.  But they say it's better to use them only sparingly, so I'm trying to break the habit, albeit very hard.  Thanks for the re-write AZ.


They're not so bad in speech. You can actually make them a character trait, but it is best to try and avoid them if possible, if only to ween yourself off them.


----------



## Taylor

TheMightyAz said:


> They're not so bad in speech. You can actually make them a character trait, but it is best to try and avoid them if possible, if only to ween yourself off them.


It's funny you would say that because I think they are a character trait of mine.  Like if someone asks me something obvious, I'll say, "Does a bear pooh in the woods?" Or in a strategic planning meeting, I might say something like, "We need a slam dunk." Some people like it, some people don't.  Since my MC is my alter ego, I could probably get away with using them in her dialogue.  But like you say, I need to ween myself of them in narration, because that's just laziness.  

Edit task #1!


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Taylor said:


> It's funny you would say that because I think they are a character trait of mine.  Like if someone asks me something obvious, I'll say, "Does a bear pooh in the woods?" Or in a strategic planning meeting, I might say something like, "We need a slam dunk." Some people like it, some people don't.  Since my MC is my alter ego, I could probably get away with using them in her dialogue.  But like you say, I need to ween myself of them in narration, because that's just laziness.
> 
> Edit task #1!


In that case, I'd keep them for your main character (clearly influenced by you) and erase them from everywhere else.


----------



## alpacinoutd

Could someone please tell me if this is okay?

_Sam found his way back to his seat and flopped onto it. He stared out the window plane. The moon was a silvery orb, casting the cottony clouds below in a velvety light. He closed his eyes and sank into his thoughts. He imagined his life in a new country after the plane would land. A faint sliver of joy flickered inside him but it was tinged with regret as his mind slid back to the memories of his life back in his home country. His past collided with his future. He knew he would miss the citrus-scented air of their garden. He would miss having bitter coffee with his ex, Sara. Heck, he might even miss the traffic and the smog hovering over the city. Things would never be the same._


----------



## alpacinoutd

This one is from a separate work:

John stepped back to his office and slammed the door shut. He pressed a button on his phone to talk to his assistant. "Mike, cancel all my appointments. All!"
He sat at his desk and put his head into his palms, replaying the events of the past few months in his mind. He could now see how Lisa had played him, guided him down the rabbit hole. Rage simmered inside him as he got up and stood by the window, looking down at the city. The city he'd come to despise. He never thought someone here could get the better of him, could do this to him. A neon sign was flashing in his mind. _Revenge! Revenge! Revenge!_


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> Could someone please tell me if this is okay?


Take the quotes off your posts.


----------



## alpacinoutd

TheMightyAz said:


> Take the quotes off your posts.


Done.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> Could someone please tell me if this is okay?
> 
> _Sam found his way back to his seat and flopped onto it. *1/* He stared out the window plane. *2/ *The moon was a silvery orb, casting the cottony clouds below in a velvety light. *3/* He closed his eyes and sank into his thoughts. *4/* He imagined his life in a new country after the plane would land. *5/* A faint sliver of joy flickered inside him but it was tinged with regret as his mind slid back to the memories of his life back in his home country. *6/ *His past collided with his future. He knew he would miss the citrus-scented air of their garden. He would miss having bitter coffee with his ex, Sara. Heck, he might even miss the traffic and the smog hovering over the city. Things would never be the same._



*1/ *I'm assuming you meant to put 'pane' as in 'windowpane' Windowpane is too specific, it's suggesting, because you've specified the glass, that it's possible to look through other parts of the window too. Just use 'window.' Or did you mean 'the plane's window? I think you did actually. lol. I won't edit it out though. *2/* Too many words ending with 'y'. It jars. Dealing with those is easy: *'The moon was a silver orb, casting the cotton clouds below in a velvet light.'* There are too many adjectives here in close proximity. The longer the sentence and the more it's broken by commas, the easier it is to get away with, but I'd still want to lose at least one. Here, the rhythm draws attention to them in an off-putting way. Add to that they're all 2 syllables/1 syllable: 'sil/ver orb', 'cot/ton clouds, 'vel/vet light'. You're simply stating the moon was a silver orb. It's hardly subtle and only really describes what it looks like rather than likening it to something more interesting. It's rather like saying 'the sun was a yellow ball'. I'd lose that. That still leaves the problem of the double-barrelled adjectives at the end but it's better: *'The moon cast the cotton clouds below in a velvet light.' *I would normally suggest removing 'below' because it goes without question the moon is above the clouds, but in this case I'd leave it for now. I'd have to hear this a few times before I could finally decide whether using 'below' was justified if only to break those last two adjectives up a bit. *3/* I like the use of 'sank' here. It's got an easiness to it, as if submitting to his thoughts. *4/* 'after the plane would land' makes this sentence fall off a cliff at the end. *'after the plane landed'* is better in terms of structure but what about the validity of it? He's not going to be able to start his new life while the plane is still in the air, so that can go: *'He imagined his life in a new country'. 5/ *What is a 'faint sliver' when related to joy? A sliver is very thin but it's not just very thin, it's hardly visible. You've got 'sliver' and you've got 'flickered' so clearly that joy isn't substantial: '*A sliver of joy flickered inside but tinged with regret, as his mind slid back to the memories of his life back in his home country.' 6/ *I'd lose this line. 

I'll take a stab at the other later on.


----------



## KatPC

alpacinoutd said:


> Could someone please tell me if this is okay?
> 
> _Sam found his way back to his seat and flopped onto it. He stared out the window plane. The moon was a silvery orb, casting the cottony clouds below in a velvety light. He closed his eyes and sank into his thoughts. He imagined his life in a new country after the plane would land. A faint sliver of joy flickered inside him but it was tinged with regret as his mind slid back to the memories of his life back in his home country. His past collided with his future. He knew he would miss the citrus-scented air of their garden. He would miss having bitter coffee with his ex, Sara. Heck, he might even miss the traffic and the smog hovering over the city. Things would never be the same._



Agree with AZ.
"He stared out the window (or plane's window)
"The moon was a silver orb, casting over the cotton clouds in a velvet light."
Sank into thoughts is lovely and personally i would start the next sentence (He imagined his life ...) in as a new paragraph to emphasise the 'sank' point.

I would recast this next sentence (He imagined ...) I don't think it is necessary to tell the reader of a plane landing. If the first sentence includes a plane's window, it is obvious to the reader they are leaving or arriving.

"He imagined his new life, in a new country; the faint sliver of joy, the tinge of regret as his mind slid back to the memories of his life back home."

The rest I feel flows well. These are personal suggestions, and like everyone, all have differing styles, Very good work.


----------



## Taylor

alpacinoutd said:


> Could someone please tell me if this is okay?
> 
> _Sam found his way back to his seat and flopped onto it. He stared out the window plane window. The moon was a silvery orb, casting the cottony clouds below in a velvety light. (Suggestion: The silvery moon cast a velvety light on the clouds below.) He closed his eyes and sank into his thoughts. He imagined his life in a new country after the plane would land. (Suggestion: Closing his eyes, Sam sank into his thoughts, imagining his life in a new country after the plane would land.) A faint sliver of joy flickered inside him, but it was tinged with regret as his mind slid back to the memories of his life back in his home country. His past collided with his future. He knew he would miss the citrus-scented air of their garden._ (At first when I read this I wanted to know who's garden, but when I read on it became clearer. Is it the parents of the ex?  I like this part.  It adds intrigue.) _  He would miss having bitter coffee with his ex, Sara. Heck, he might even miss the traffic and the smog hovering over the city. Things would never be the same. _


Watch the use of too much "he" and "his".

A few suggestions, otherwise, well done!


----------



## Taylor

alpacinoutd said:


> This one is from a separate work:
> 
> John stepped back to his office and slammed the door shut. He pressed the intercom a button on his phone to talk to his assistant. "Mike, cancel all my appointments. All!"
> He sat at his desk and put his head into his palms, replaying the events of the past few months in his mind. (Suggestion: Slumped at his desk, he put his head in his hands, replaying the events of the past few months.) He could now see how Lisa had played him, guided him down the rabbit hole. (Suggestion: Now he could now see how Lisa had played him -- guided him down the rabbit hole.) Rage simmered inside him as he got up and stood by the window, looking down at the city. The city he'd come to despise. He never thought someone here could get the better of him, could do this to him. (Same issue here with the punctuation. a comma may not be suficient, but you need to think if you want the repetition of the sentence structure.) A neon sign was flashing in his mind. _Revenge! Revenge! Revenge!_


I like the ending!


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> This one is from a separate work:
> 
> *1/* John stepped back to his office and slammed the door shut. *2/* He pressed a button on his phone to talk to his assistant. "Mike, cancel all my appointments. *3/* All!"



*1/ *Use 'into' instead of 'to'. 'to' implies he's only got closer to his office. Consider the work a verb does. In this case you can only 'slam' a door shut, making 'shut' redundant.* 'John stepped back into his office and slammed the door.'* *2/* This is a common habit. You're breaking movement/action down too much. *'He called his assistant on the phone'* If it's his office, it's going to be his phone, allowing you to remove the repeat of 'his'. *3/* This is dialogue and so not set in stone but would he really emphasis like that? With a single word? Or would he say something like 'All of them.' I'd remove 'all' from the first sentence too: *'Mike, cancel my appointments. All of them.'*


alpacinoutd said:


> *1/* He sat at his desk and put his head into his palms, replaying the events of the past few months in his mind. *2/* He could now see how Lisa had played him, guided him down the rabbit hole. *3/* Rage simmered inside him as he got up and stood by the window, looking down at the city. The city he'd come to despise. He never thought someone here could get the better of him, could do this to him. *4/ *A neon sign was flashing in his mind. _Revenge! Revenge! Revenge!_


*1/* I'd want to rethink this just because you have 4 repeats of 'his', the first 3 very close together. It might mean adding extra detail. Just as an example of how you can get around things like this and NOT to be a true alternative:* 'He sat at the office table and cupped a wary head in his palms, considering the events of the last few months'* Here I've got rid of three, one by naming the table (office table), one by adding a verb (wary) and one by changing an abstract idea into a concrete word (considered). You could even get rid of the other 'his' by adding 'trembling palms'. Don't do that though! It would be too much. Just keep your eye out for repeats. Sometimes they can't be avoided but most times they can either be cut down or have more separation in the sentence. *2/* 'now' isn't wrong but ask yourself if you need it. Consider the sequence of the sentences. Before he thought this, you'd already told the reader he was considering events from a few months ago. 'now' is therefore redundant because 'now' is literally when the reader is reading that sentence. *3/ *'Rage' and 'simmer' are not a good match, in the same way 'trickle' and 'waterfall' aren't. You need a stronger word to match 'rage' such as 'boiled'. If he's filled with rage would he just get up and stand by the window? Wouldn't the rage effect him in some way? Again, just an example: *'Rage boiled inside him as he stood up quickly from his chair and stormed to the window, leering down on at the city.'* Do you see how the actions match the word 'rage'? Now consider 'show don't tell' and ask yourself, could I write this action without using the word 'rage'? That's what 'show don't tell' means. We know what came before this: *'He stood quickly from his chair and stormed to the window, leering down at the city.' *That still conveys rage, right? *4/* Avoid 'was' as much as possible, it's usually passive: *'A neon sign flashed in his mind.' *Generally speaking, words that end with 'ed' are stronger than words that end in 'ing' but don't take that too much to heart. I lead myself down some rabbit holes of my own trying too hard to lose them completely.


----------



## KeganThompson

It has been a bit since I posted anything here. I just stated pantsing this story Saturday. I have an idea of where it's going. How far and what exactly? not sure lol still playing with it. I have a few thoughts but i'm just gonna put it out there. okay I'm ready to see red ()

All my friends were dead. Well, maybe friends wasn’t the correct word. But dead was. Plenty of confused souls lingered in the historical town of Wicker, and I tried to counsel them to the other side. Surprisingly, many knew they were no longer amongst the living but couldn’t recall why. Some had no idea or were in complete denial. Those were the fun cases.
    A guy named Markus died back in the ‘80s, I found him wandering the woods decked in hunting gear, constantly looping the same spot. It took me four months to convenience him he had died. He had a gaping hole in the back of his head and maybe that’s why it took another two for him to remember exactly how. At first, I thought it was an accident but I guess that’s what you get for banging your best friend’s wife. Other than the wound, he looked pretty good.
Funny, I looked more ghostly than some of my clients. Small, boney with porcelain skin and long black hair. I already worked at The Wicker Theater as an extra, I’d be perfect as Samara from The Ring. Turning The Ring into a musical might be a little unrealistic but who knows, stranger things have happened.
    I didn’t talk much and was hardly noticed, but recently I gained traction at work. Someone started sending me flowers. Yes me, a lowly extra. Marina, my guardian, wasn’t the culprit either. She had sent flowers before, but this person was anonymous. I was in disbelief when the assistant director said, “Looks like you have a secret admirer,” and sat the pot of roses on my vanity backstage.
    Surely, there must’ve been a mistake. But when I reached for the tag, it clearly read in a cursive font _To: Amber Autumns._ (Which ironically wasn’t a stage name, what can I say, I was born a star.) The bouquet arrangement had a mix of soft pink, peach, and yellow roses. I looked on the back of the tag, spun the vase, even dug into the pot. Nothing.
    I went on stage that evening searching the crowd, wondering if they were out there, watching me. It was probably some weirdo in his mid to late forties. I almost tripped and ate masonite during a major choreography scene. The thought of an older man fancying me? Disgusting. I was only sixteen.
    Thankfully, only Maina approached me after the show. No creep. I decided not to tell her about the flowers, I was too embarrassed. I knew they weren’t from her when she didn’t mention them. We went home and ate dinner. I passed out early, needing to get up before the sun.  I was about to meet with my most difficult client.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> All my friends were dead. Well, maybe friends wasn’t the correct word. But dead was. Plenty of confused souls lingered in the historical town of Wicker, and I tried to counsel them to the other side. Surprisingly, many knew they were no longer amongst the living but couldn’t recall why. Some had no idea or were in complete denial. Those were the fun cases.



Nothing wrong there.



KeganThompson said:


> A guy named Markus died back in the ‘80s*[.] *I found him wandering the woods decked in hunting gear, constantly looping the same spot. It took me four months to convenience *[convince] *him he had died. He had a gaping hole in the back of his head and maybe that’s why it took another two for him to remember exactly how. At first, I thought it was an accident but I guess that’s what you get for banging your best friend’s wife. Other than the wound, he looked pretty good.



Not much wrong here.



KeganThompson said:


> *1/* Funny, I looked more ghostly than some of my clients. Small, *bony* with porcelain skin and long black hair. I already worked at The Wicker Theater as an extra* and *I’d be perfect as Samara from The Ring. Turning The Ring into a musical might be a little unrealistic but who knows, stranger things have happened.



*1/* 'funny' as in 'funny thing is'? Cutting it down like that makes it difficult to decide on how to punctuate it. Perhaps 'Funny ... I looked more ghastly' I'd personally write the full thing. 



KeganThompson said:


> I didn’t talk much and was hardly noticed, but recently I gained traction at work. Someone started sending me flowers. Yes me, a lowly extra. Marina, my guardian, wasn’t the culprit either. She had sent flowers before, but this person was anonymous. I was in disbelief when the assistant director said, “Looks like you have a secret admirer,” and sat the pot of roses on my vanity backstage.



Nothing wrong here. 



KeganThompson said:


> Surely, there must’ve been a mistake. But when I reached for the tag, it clearly read in a cursive font _To: Amber Autumns._ (Which ironically wasn’t a stage name*[.] W*hat can I say*?* I was born a star.) The bouquet arrangement had a mix of soft pink, peach, and yellow roses. I looked on the back of the tag, spun the vase, even dug into the pot. Nothing.



Nothing much wrong here. I'd consider removing the brackets, unless you changed 'ironically' to 'incidentally', which would make it more of an aside worthy of bracketing. 



KeganThompson said:


> I went on stage that evening searching the crowd, wondering if they were out there, watching me. It was probably some weirdo in his mid to late forties. I almost tripped and ate masonite during a major choreography scene. The thought of an older man fancying me? Disgusting. I was only sixteen.



Again, perfectly fine.



KeganThompson said:


> Thankfully, only Maina approached me after the show. No creep. I decided not to tell her about the flowers*[.] *I was too embarrassed. I knew they weren’t from her when she didn’t mention them. We went home and ate dinner. I passed out early, needing to get up before the sun.  I was about to meet with my most difficult client.


Boooo! Rushed last paragraph. You can do better.


----------



## JBF

KeganThompson said:


> I'm ready to see red ()



_Red ink makes the grass grow._ _ Ink!  Ink!  Ink!  Aiiiiiiiiiieeeeee!_


I think.  I dunno...the metaphor is hazy and probably wrong.  Onwards!



KeganThompson said:


> All my friends were dead.



Para break.  Set the opening line apart for impact.  



KeganThompson said:


> Well, maybe friends wasn’t the correct word. But dead was. Plenty of confused souls lingered in the historical town of Wicker, and I tried to counsel them to the other side. Surprisingly, many knew they were no longer amongst the living but couldn’t recall why. Some had no idea or were in complete denial. Those were the fun cases.






KeganThompson said:


> I found Markus wandering the woods decked in hunting gear, constantly looping the same spot since the '80s. It took me four months to convenience him he had died. He had a gaping hole in the back of his head and maybe that’s why it took another two for him to remember exactly how. At first, I thought it was an accident but I guess that’s what you get for banging your best friend’s wife. Otherwise he looked pretty good.






KeganThompson said:


> Funny, I looked more ghostly than some of my clients. Small, boney with porcelain skin and long black hair. I already worked at The Wicker Theater as an extra, I’d be perfect as Samara from The Ring. Turning The Ring into a musical might be a little unrealistic but who knows, stranger things have happened.



Not bad, but not much transition between this and the section preceding.  



KeganThompson said:


> I didn’t talk much and was hardly noticed, but recently I gained traction at work. Someone started sending me flowers. Yes me, a lowly extra. Marina, my guardian, wasn’t the culprit either. She had sent flowers before, but this person was anonymous. I was in disbelief when the assistant director said, “Looks like you have a secret admirer,” and sat the pot of roses on my vanity backstage.



Were this me...I'd lead with this.  Open with the mysterious flowers on the dresser backstage, then pick up with the 'all my friends were dead' bit.  



KeganThompson said:


> Surely, there must’ve been a mistake. But when I reached for the tag, it clearly read in a cursive font _To: Amber Autumns._ (Which ironically wasn’t a stage name, what can I say, I was born a star.) The bouquet arrangement had a mix of soft pink, peach, and yellow roses. I looked on the back of the tag, spun the vase, even dug into the pot. Nothing.



Two items.  There's a school of thought that says parenthesis are ill-advised in narrative fiction.  Though there are probably exceptions, I tend to agree.  

That said, keep the content.  Good opportunity for an offhand quip about parents and what they were thinking and may or may not have been smoking.  



KeganThompson said:


> I went on stage that evening searching the crowd, wondering if they were out there, watching me. It was probably some weirdo in his mid to late forties. I almost tripped and ate masonite during a major choreography scene. The thought of an older man fancying me? Disgusting. I was only sixteen.





KeganThompson said:


> Thankfully, only Maina approached me after the show. No creep. I decided not to tell her about the flowers, I was too embarrassed. I knew they weren’t from her when she didn’t mention them. We went home and ate dinner. I passed out early, needing to get up before the sun.  I was about to meet with my most difficult client.



Heavy on the exposition.  In a situation like this I'd either give the after-show scenes some time to breathe or cut them altogether.  

You know the drill.  If any of the above works, great.  If not, disregard.


----------



## KeganThompson

JBF said:


> Were this me...I'd lead with this.  Open with the mysterious flowers on the dresser backstage, then pick up with the 'all my friends were dead' bit.


I'll think about it, but I got a flow going, which I have a hard time achieving lol See if I can rework it a bit.
_I found Markus wandering the woods decked in hunting gear, constantly looping the same spot since the '80s. _Thanks for reworking this. I did it multiple times but I couldn't get it to sound "right" 


JBF said:


> Two items.  There's a school of thought that says parenthesis are ill-advised in narrative fiction.  Though there are probably exceptions, I tend to agree.
> 
> That said, keep the content.  Good opportunity for an offhand quip about parents and what they were thinking and may or may not have been smoking.


I can cut the parenthesis, I put it in there because I was thinking it more as a side comment haha.


JBF said:


> Heavy on the exposition.  In a situation like this I'd either give the after-show scenes some time to breathe or cut them altogether.
> 
> You know the drill.  If any of the above works, great.  If not, disregard.


How about some dialogue between her and Marina after the show? I will not lie...I know nothing about the theatre. I did drama club once after school in the 6th grade.  When I went to school 6th grade was still elementary so we go the gym for rehearsal lol


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> Nothing wrong there.
> 
> 
> 
> Not much wrong here.
> 
> 
> 
> *1/* 'funny' as in 'funny thing is'? Cutting it down like that makes it difficult to decide on how to punctuate it. Perhaps 'Funny ... I looked more ghastly' I'd personally write the full thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing wrong here.
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing much wrong here. I'd consider removing the brackets, unless you changed 'ironically' to 'incidentally', which would make it more of an aside worthy of bracketing.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, perfectly fine.
> 
> 
> Boooo! Rushed last paragraph. You can do better.


This is the least amount of reworking I have seen. Maybe comedy is my thing, no? jk and I totally rushed the last paragraph.  I didn't work on it as much as the others. BUt I wanted t go ahead and post it


----------



## Ajoy

Taylor said:


> “You won’t regret this Claire, I _promise_,”  Maria said emphatically.
> 
> It was not lost on Claire that she had made a promise to Maria so many years ago.  While she had tried to gain an advantage from Maria’s business, it appeared that the shoe was on the other foot now.  She wondered if Maria was thinking the same thing as she emphasized the word.


Personally, I'm not that bothered by the cliche as it's used, but I wonder if there is a way to shift that last sentence so that it's much closer to the emphasized word. Maybe it's not an issue for the reader who has all the context, but I got distracted wondering about what the other promise was, then what advantage Claire had tried to get, then it took me a minute to make the connection back to the emphasized word.

I don't know your context, so this could be way off base, but maybe something like...

"You won't regret this Claire, I promise."

Claire bristled at the emphasized word. She wondered if Maria was thinking about the time all those years ago when Claire had made a promise of her own, attempting to gain an advantage from Maria's business.

Edit: Sorry, I somehow missed a whole page of conversation before I replied and didn't notice the date on the original post. I'm a little late to the game, here.


----------



## Taylor

Ajoy said:


> Personally, I'm not that bothered by the cliche as it's used, but I wonder if there is a way to shift that last sentence so that it's much closer to the emphasized word. Maybe it's not an issue for the reader who has all the context, but I got distracted wondering about what the other promise was, then what advantage Claire had tried to get, then it took me a minute to make the connection back to the emphasized word.
> 
> I don't know your context, so this could be way off base, but maybe something like...
> 
> "You won't regret this Claire, I promise."
> 
> Claire bristled at the emphasized word. She wondered if Maria was thinking about the time all those years ago when Claire had made a promise of her own, attempting to gain an advantage from Maria's business.
> 
> Edit: Sorry, I somehow missed a whole page of conversation before I replied and didn't notice the date on the original post. I'm a little late to the game, here.


No worries, it's not too late.  Will be editing in October.  I like your replacement and especially the use of "bristled."  It's not a word I would have thought of but it works.  I would modify it slightly to fit in better with the plot:

"You won't regret this Claire, I _promise._"

Claire bristled at the emphasized word. She wondered if Maria was thinking about the time all those years ago when Maria asked_ her_ to make a promise. She was trying to protect her own business from Claire's predatory practices. Now she's promising to help Claire in her new venture.


----------



## KeganThompson

Okay, I took JBF's advice and started with the flowers as the opening. I go into the ghost counselor bit later. Not sure how well the rest of the story is working...I'm still editing before "pitching' the first section in the workshop. The first line is a hint to the ghost counseling exposition a few paragraphs down., let me know what you think of the "new" start.  


I didn’t talk with the living much.
 I was always in the background, an afterthought. It didn’t bother me, actually, I preferred it. But I gained a bit of traction at work when someone started sending me flowers. Yes me, a lowly theater extra. Marina, my guardian, wasn’t the culprit. She had sent flowers before, but these were sent anonymously. I couldn’t believe it when the assistant director said, “Looks like you have a secret admirer,” and sat the pot of roses on my vanity backstage. 
Karen, a fellow extra, asked me if I had a boyfriend when she saw them. I quickly squashed that idea. Surely, there must’ve been a mistake. But when I reached for the tag, it clearly read in a cursive font To: Amber Autumns. Which ironically wasn’t a stage name. What can I say? I was born a star. The bouquet arrangement had a mix of soft pink, peach, and yellow roses. I looked on the back of the tag, spun the vase, even dug into the pot. Nothing.


----------



## Olivia Brine

Struggling with this bit of description for my sci fi/dystopian WIP

Salty salty sea air swept in that blew through Niko’s hair and gently caressed his face. His eyes had fallen shut as they met the breeze, and only then did Niko force them open. A level of incomprehensible beauty stunned him into silence, and he gazed out for a long moment before taking a step out. _Beauty_ hardly did the view justice. _Magnificent_, he mentally corrected. A palate of white Greco-style architecture made up the city that decorated the rocky face of the mountain below. Houses and shops, cafes, and restaurants, all made of clay baked white by the sun. Grey stone pathways zigzagged up and down the mountain and broke up the monotonous palate. Splashes of color made up doors and windowsills throughout the city, his own door a rose-colored red.

But beyond the city, no further than five miles, was where the rocky cliffs met the deep, vibrant blue of the sea. A blue that extended for endless miles as far as his eye could see. And as Niko followed the expanse of water, up until it met the horizon, then raised his gaze a little more, he was met with a sight that sucked the breath from his lungs and sent goosebumps skittering up his arms. “Woah,” he breathed.

Above him loomed a planet, so massive that its vastness filled nearly the entire sky. A slow spinning orb of blue and green that instilled a feeling of insignificance in Niko as he realized his place in the universe: A small speck of matter amongst billions of stars and planets. A minute, inconsequential detail. But a moment later, that feeling passed, and Niko was left with only awe.


Trying to capture these images: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








 (ignore the desert but imagine that planet in the second image)


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Okay, I took JBF's advice and started with the flowers as the opening. I go into the ghost counselor bit later. Not sure how well the rest of the story is working...I'm still editing before "pitching' the first section in the workshop. The first line is a hint to the ghost counseling exposition a few paragraphs down., let me know what you think of the "new" start.
> 
> 
> I didn’t talk with the living much.



Good opening line. As a hook it's short, snappy and intriguing, and I don't think many people would read that and not at least glance the second paragraph.



KeganThompson said:


> I was always in the background, an afterthought. *1**/* It didn’t bother me, actually, I preferred it.* 2/* But I gained a bit of traction at work when someone started sending me flowers. Yes me, a lowly theater extra. Marina, my guardian, wasn’t the culprit. She had sent flowers before, but these were sent anonymously. *3/* I couldn’t believe it when the assistant director said, “Looks like you have a secret admirer,” and sat the pot of roses on my vanity backstage.



*1/* There's something missing here. The word 'actually' is in a tug of war with the statements either side. Is it 'It didn't bother me, actually' or 'Actually, I preferred it.' I'm going to go with the second and suggest a full stop:* 'It didn't bother me. Actually, I preferred it.' 2/ *What is the 'traction' she gained? That could be anything. You need to be specific there. 'Notoriety' for example. Something tangible. *3/* What is a 'vanity'? Is it a specific piece of furniture? I can't actually find a specific piece of furniture called a 'vanity'. I could be wrong here but even if I am, could other readers also have the same sticking point? Being specific would negate any confusion. 



KeganThompson said:


> *1/* Karen, a fellow extra, asked me if I had a boyfriend when she saw them. I quickly squashed that idea. Surely, there must’ve been a mistake. But when I reached for the tag, it clearly read in a cursive font *(')*To: Amber Autumns*(**'),* *w*hich ironically wasn’t a stage name. What can I say? I was born a star. The bouquet arrangement had a mix of soft pink, peach, and yellow roses. I looked on the back of the tag, spun the vase, even dug into the pot. Nothing.


*1/* I'm pretty sure this is the correct use of the word 'fellow' but for some reason, because of the construct of the sentence I think, I get a male vibe from the word. 'Fellow' is a man or boy first but it can also mean someone with the same profession. I'd think about finding another word with more limited meaning just to keep that clear. 

I have to say, although you've struggled to come to grips with the whole 'practice' thing, since you've started doing it, your writing has tightened beyond recognition.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Olivia Brine said:


> Struggling with this bit of description for my sci fi/dystopian WIP
> 
> *1/ *Salty salty sea air swept in that blew through Niko’s hair and gently caressed his face. *2/* His eyes had fallen shut as they met the breeze, and only then did Niko force them open. *3/* A level of incomprehensible beauty stunned him into silence, and he gazed out for a long moment before taking a step out. _Beauty_ hardly did the view justice. *4/* _Magnificent_, he mentally corrected. A palate of white Greco-style architecture made up the city that *and *decorated the rocky face of the mountain below. Houses and shops, cafes, and restaurants, all made of clay baked white by the sun. Grey stone pathways zigzagged up and down the mountain and broke up the monotonous palate. Splashes of color made up doors and windowsills throughout the city, his own door a rose-colored red.



*1/* This is just a tad awkward. The culprit here is 'that'.* 'Salty sea air swept in and blew through Niko's hair, gently caressing his face.' *or, to lose the 'ing', which I personally would prefer: *'Salty sea air swept in, blew through Niko's hair and gently caressed his face.' 2/ *What action is 'then' referring to in this sentence? In the first sentence the wind caressed his face and then in the second sentence you've used 'had' making the following action 'as they met the breeze' the same moment as in the first sentence. This leaves 'and only then did Niko force them open' hanging without context. I'm not keen on 'forced' there either. Are his lids stuck together? Something like *'His eyes had fallen shut as they met the breeze (and or but) now he slowly opened them.' '*Now' isn't a word you'd want to use very often but here it fits and has a purpose. You could even get rid of 'had fallen' and simply go with 'his eyes shut as they ...' If you want to use something like 'had fallen shut' to show a lazy, sleepiness creeping over him, then I'd consider coming up with something to replace 'fallen shut', which is quite a harsh action. *'His eyes had slowly closed as they met the breeze, and now he opened them.' 3/ *'A level of incomprehensible beauty' is a little too much and 'a level' makes it feel impersonal, clinical. You could do with removing the repeat of 'out' there too. *'The beauty stunned him into silence, and he gazed out a long moment before stepping onto the (veranda? balustrade? etc)' 4/* 'he mentally corrected'. Again, this is a little clinical and impersonal. You're simply talking about 'thought' here. *'Magnificent, he thought more appropriate/apt/fitting.' *I have no suggestion for the very last sentence of this paragraph. I'm just not quite feeling it and that's all. I'd have to completely rewrite that and it's not really what you want here. 



Olivia Brine said:


> *1/* But beyond the city, no further than five miles, was where the rocky cliffs met the deep, vibrant blue of the sea. A blue that extended for endless miles as far as his eye could see. *2/* And *A*s Niko followed the expanse of water, up until it met the horizon, then raised his gaze a little more, he was met with a sight that sucked the breath from his lungs and sent goosebumps skittering up his arms. “Woah,” he breathed.



*1/* You don't need 'but' here. What I've discovered about the word 'but' is it forces a quick completion of an idea. Point/contrast/done. By forcing yourself to remove it, a whole world of possibility opens up on the journey between one point and the next. You find yourself expanding on an idea more instead of immediately hitting a full stop. I'm still coming to terms with this myself. Here isn't the best example* but* I thought I'd point it out. Or should that be: 'Here isn't the best example, although, in the context of your work, I thought it worthwhile pointing out because it will serve you well in the future.' 'was where' is awkward. *'Beyond the city, no further than five miles, rocky cliffs met the deep, vibrant blue of the sea.' 2/ *A slight discrepancy here. You've used 'up' and then 'raised' making it appear as if he's looked up and then up again. *'As Niki followed the expanse of water until it met the horizon, then raised his gaze a little more, he was met with a sight that sucked the breath from his lungs and sent goosebumps skittering up his arms.'*



Olivia Brine said:


> *1/* Above him loomed a planet, so massive that its vastness filled nearly the entire sky. A slow spinning orb of blue and green that instilled a feeling of insignificance in Niko as he realized his place in the universe: A small speck of matter amongst billions of stars and planets. A minute, inconsequential detail.  But a moment later, that feeling passed, and Niko was left with only awe.


*1/* It's either massive or vast and there's no reason to use both: *'Above him loomed a planet, so vast it nearly filled the entire sky'*


----------



## Matchu

*Toward clarity (?):*

Salty salty sea air swept in that [*Sea breeze*] *blew through Niko’s hair* *and* gently *caressed his face*. *He *is eyes had fallen shut as they met the breeze, and only then did Niko force them *opened his eyes*. A level of incomprehensible beauty stunned him into silence, [_was he speaking?_] and he gazed out for a long moment before taking a step out. _Beauty_ hardly did the view justice. _Magnificent_, he mentally corrected. *A* palate of white Greco-style architecture made up the *city* that *decorated the rocky face of the mountain below*. *Houses and shops, cafes, *and* restaurants*, all made of [*their*] *clay baked white by the sun*. Grey stone *pathways zigzagged up and down the mountain* and broke up the monotonous [_beauty or monotonous?_] palate. Splashes of color made up*... ... doors and windowsills [splashed with colour]* throughout the city, *his own door* a rose-colored *red*.

But beyond *[WW]* *the city... ... *, no further than five miles, was where the rocky cliffs met the deep, vibrant blue of the sea. A blue that extended for endless miles as far as his eye could see. And as Niko followed *the expanse of water*, up until it *met the horizon*, then raised his gaze a little more, he was met with a *[the] sight* that *sucked the breath from his lungs and sent goosebumps skittering up his arms.

“Woah,” he breathed*. [_'breathed' is inappropriate to lit. by & large.  It is insincere but common CW...imo _]

Above him loomed a*[the]  planet*, *[loomed] so massive* that *its vastness filled nearly the entire sky.* *A *slow* spinning orb of blue and green* that *instilled *a *the feeling of insignificance in Niko* *.*as *he realized his place in the universe: A small speck of matter amongst billions of stars and planets. A minute, inconsequential detail.* But *a moment later, that feeling passed, *and *Niko was left with* only awe.
...

...a little confused by ups and downs - thinking 'I' am on the water?


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> Good opening line. As a hook it's short, snappy and intriguing, and I don't think many people would read that and not at least glance the second paragraph.
> 
> 
> 
> *1/* There's something missing here. The word 'actually' is in a tug of war with the statements either side. Is it 'It didn't bother me, actually' or 'Actually, I preferred it.' I'm going to go with the second and suggest a full stop:* 'It didn't bother me. Actually, I preferred it.' 2/ *What is the 'traction' she gained? That could be anything. You need to be specific there. 'Notoriety' for example. Something tangible. *3/* What is a 'vanity'? Is it a specific piece of furniture? I can't actually find a specific piece of furniture called a 'vanity'. I could be wrong here but even if I am, could other readers also have the same sticking point? Being specific would negate any confusion.


I agree, I didn't know how to punctuate it when putting in the "actually" section. I figured you'd help me out after I posted.
instead of traction maybe say "attention" because usually she is ignored but someone giving her flowers is pulling people to speak with her more
You've never heard of vanity? I don't know much about theater but I know they're little "vanities" in the dressing rooms.  I looked up the definition: 
_*NORTH AMERICAN*_
*a dressing table*.
I guess it's only used in north America? i was like ??? how do you not know what a vanity is?  but you're British so if it's north American that would explain it lol. They were always referred to as a vanity where I'm from so I didn't think anything of it.



> _when someone started sending me flowers._


I dont know how well I will frame this question but based on this sentence: its saying its a reoccurring thing but the flowers only came once in the context of the beginning paragraphs. I haven't mentioned receiving other flowers yet. I know its in past tense and there will be more flowers given to her but it sounds like multiple have been given to her already (based on the context). Idk if I should reword it? Does that make sense? 


TheMightyAz said:


> I have to say, although you've struggled to come to grips with the whole 'practice' thing, since you've started doing it, your writing has tightened beyond recognition.


is this you saying I have improved a lot? 
I'm at the point where I'm not writing to get a story published, I'm writing because I want to and because I want to have fun. (even if it means it's not good) The narration in this one has more humor and wit to it, which has made me enjoy writing it. I'm totally pantsing it and so I will be constantly changing it but the flow has been coming out easier with this one than some other works.


----------



## Matchu

'Vanity' is okay - it is American or theatre English.  Understanding emerges from the context.

The hardest part for me was realising to hop into character...the...not a young man a anxiety pen...but a woman in career.  I was all ready to blast with a 'theatre extra?'  What kind of good for nothing 'slug' works as a 'theatre extra?'  But then I deleted my post after I asked the moderator to delete my post.  And then I checked again to ensure deletion and had a short sleep afterward.  Trauma pig & sexist..


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> I agree, I didn't know how to punctuate it when putting in the "actually" section. I figured you'd help me out after I posted.
> instead of traction maybe say "attention" because usually she is ignored but someone giving her flowers is pulling people to speak with her more
> You've never heard of vanity? I don't know much about theater but I know they're little "vanities" in the dressing rooms.  I looked up the definition:
> _*NORTH AMERICAN*_
> *a dressing table*.
> I guess it's only used in north America? i was like ??? how do you not know what a vanity is?  but you're British so if it's north American that would explain it lol. They were always referred to as a vanity where I'm from so I didn't think anything of it.
> 
> 
> I dont know how well I will frame this question but based on this sentence: its saying its a reoccurring thing but the flowers only came once in the context of the beginning paragraphs. I haven't mentioned receiving other flowers yet. I know its in past tense and there will be more flowers given to her but it sounds like multiple have been given to her already (based on the context). Idk if I should reword it? Does that make sense?
> 
> is this you saying I have improved a lot?
> I'm at the point where I'm not writing to get a story published, I'm writing because I want to and because I want to have fun. (even if it means it's not good) The narration in this one has more humor and wit to it, which has made me enjoy writing it. I'm totally pantsing it and so I will be constantly changing it but the flow has been coming out easier with this one than some other works.


As far as I know, and can't find anything on google to say otherwise, 'vanity' in relation to furniture, can be a number of things related to vanity (or self care.) To say vanity on its own gives me lots of options. It can be 'vanity storage', 'vanity mirror', 'vanity dressing table', 'vanity stool' etc. So when you say 'vanity' by itself, I have no idea what exactly you're referring to.

Maybe I'm the only person that will ever be confused. In which case, ignore.  But how hard would it be to be more specific? Just in case ...

Just so I know what it looks like for future use, post a picture of a 'vanity'.


----------



## Matchu

But that's destructive crit?

It means nobody can ever write something that you struggle to understand.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Matchu said:


> But that's destructive crit?
> 
> It means nobody can ever write something that you struggle to understand.


I wonder when you're going to stop these little sniper posts because ignoring you hasn't.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> As far as I know, and can't find anything on google to say otherwise, 'vanity' in relation to furniture, can be a number of things related to vanity (or self care.) To say vanity on its own gives me lots of options. It can be 'vanity storage', 'vanity mirror', 'vanity dressing table', 'vanity stool' etc. So when you say 'vanity' by itself, I have no idea what exactly you're referring to.
> 
> Maybe I'm the only person that will ever be confused. In which case, ignore.  But how hard would it be to be more specific? Just in case ...
> 
> Just so I know what it looks like for future use, post a picture of a 'vanity'.


When I googled it, the last definition was _NORTH AMERICAN dressing table. _
you can have a vanity mirror, stool etc separate (and buy it on its own depending) but usually when its simply "vanity' its the general term for all of it. Like the mirror desk table altogether. You tryna make me sound crazy like the "tee" thing but IM NOT I SWEAR   
here is a small one


			https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07VWZPYGC/?tag=writingforu06-20
		










						GLAMOUR VANITIES White Vanity with Mirror
					


Shop for the Exclusive GLAMOUR VANITIES GLAMPRO-2PC White Vanity with Mirror - 11 Drawer at Del Sol Furniture - Your Phoenix, Glendale, Mesa, Tempe, Scottsdale,  Avondale, Peoria, Goodyear, Litchfield, Arizona Furniture & Mattress Store





					www.delsolfurniture.com


----------



## Matchu

I only disagreed about 'vanity.'  I understood what he wrote in the context of a theatre setting.  

I am interested in writing.  

You are interested in your own writing only, proclaiming at the same time how you have never read any books while establishing in 2nd & 3rd person perspectives sweeping, often red ink, proclamations on the subject of writing.

It  does irk eventually.  You talk about 'voice.'  Wilfully and deliberately you misunderstand what voice means.  A long history in writer groups where the tutor is always wrong?

But I am sensitive to shapes and sizes in this day and age and should only be kind.  Some humility from you might be appealing.  But then writer websites are about so much more than writing, I suppose.

All best


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> When I googled it, the last definition was _NORTH AMERICAN dressing table. _
> you can look up vanity mirror stool etc, but usually when its simply "vanity' the general term for all of it. Like the mirror desk table ect
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vanity - Google Search


Yes, but that's why I'm pointing it out. 'vanity' in terms of furniture, relates to a number of things. Is the pot on a vanity stool? Is it on a vanity dressing table? Is it on a vanity storage unit? I don't know where the pot is and can't visualise what it's on because I have a number of options. Like I said, this may be something I've never come across before, but when even a google and dictionary search still doesn't answer the question clearly, then surely being more specific is advisable. Why not just put 'vanity dressing table' or 'vanity stool'?


----------



## Ajoy

TheMightyAz said:


> As far as I know, and can't find anything on google to say otherwise, 'vanity' in relation to furniture, can be a number of things related to vanity (or self care.) To say vanity on its own gives me lots of options. It can be 'vanity storage', 'vanity mirror', 'vanity dressing table', 'vanity stool' etc. So when you say 'vanity' by itself, I have no idea what exactly you're referring to.
> 
> Maybe I'm the only person that will ever be confused. In which case, ignore.  But how hard would it be to be more specific? Just in case ...
> 
> Just so I know what it looks like for future use, post a picture of a 'vanity'.


From my background knowledge (which could certainly be flawed), when referring to a vanity using that word alone, it would be the table with a mirror that you sit at to do your hair/make-up.  If you google search vanity in images, you'll see a bunch of variations on the mirrored table, but it's all the same idea.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Ajoy said:


> From my background knowledge (which could certainly be flawed), when referring to a vanity using that word alone, it would be the table with a mirror that you sit at to do your hair/make-up.  If you google search vanity in images, you'll see a bunch of variations on the mirrored table, but it's all the same idea.


So 'vanity' in relation to 'theatre' is the mirror and make up desk? OK. I've learned something new.


----------



## Ajoy

KeganThompson said:


> I didn’t talk with the living much.
> I was always in the background, an afterthought. It didn’t bother me, actually, I preferred it. (Try: I didnt' bother me. Actually, I preferred it.) But I gained a bit of traction at work when someone started sending me flowers.(I feel like if being an afterthought was preferred, getting noticed wouldn't be referred to as traction. Maybe just something like: "But then someone at work started sending me flowers.")  Yes me, a lowly theater extra. Marina, my guardian, wasn’t the culprit. She had sent flowers before, but these were sent anonymously. I couldn’t believe it when the assistant director said, “Looks like you have a secret admirer,” and sat the pot of roses on my vanity backstage.
> Karen, a fellow extra, asked me if I had a boyfriend when she saw them. I quickly squashed that idea. Surely, there must’ve been a mistake. But when I reached for the tag, it clearly read in a cursive font To: Amber Autumns. Which ironically wasn’t a stage name. What can I say? I was born a star. (Is this meant to be sarcasm? Or a deep wish in oppostition to her stated preference of "being an afterthought"? I like the line, but I'm trying to figure out what it means when compared to the earlier sentiment.) The bouquet arrangement had a mix of soft pink, peach, and yellow roses. I looked on the back of the tag, spun the vase, even dug into the pot. Nothing.


Nice, tight writing. I liked it.


----------



## Ajoy

TheMightyAz said:


> So 'vanity' in relation to 'theatre' is the mirror and make up desk? OK. I've learned something new.


That would be my assumption when reading it in that context.


----------



## Ajoy

I would really appreciate some of your sharp eyes on this blurb for my query letter: 

The Olympian gods left Earth two millennia ago and some of their descendants refused to follow, creating the Godline—a nearly immortal people hidden away on Atlantis. The Godline population has since dwindled, and their magical gifts have become rare. Their desperate queen has spent the last three centuries forcing them to participate in her violent experiments to bring Godline magic back to their world.

When Alexa Delmon’s magic manifests near the end of her sophomore year at college, she discovers she’s been hidden from the Godline world in a Nymph village in Alaska. Unable to rest because of the vivid dreams consuming her nights, she reluctantly returns home seeking help from the only family she’s ever known.

But just as she begins learning the truth, an Atlantian hunter comes for Alexa, intent on returning her to the queen. When her parents stay behind to fight off the threat, it gives Alexa and her sister enough time to flee with an unexpected ally—the prince of Atlantis.

The trio arrives in a new city with only the promise of meeting some mysterious Godline mentor. But Alexa isn’t sure how long they have before her out-of-control magic brings the hunter down on them again.


----------



## KeganThompson

Matchu said:


> 'Vanity' is okay - it is American or theatre English.  Understanding emerges from the context.
> 
> The hardest part for me was realising to hop into character...the...not a young man a anxiety pen...but a woman in career.  I was all ready to blast with a 'theatre extra?'  What kind of good for nothing 'slug' works as a 'theatre extra?'  But then I deleted my post after I asked the moderator to delete my post.  And then I checked again to ensure deletion and had a short sleep afterward.  Trauma pig & sexist..


Its American but the MC works at a theater (theatre) in her city. Does plays and whatnot. 
Why did you assume my MC was a male right away? lol Seems to be the norm when I post anything (not just you) To be fair my first posting my mc was a male


----------



## Matchu

That was my point.  

My 'assumption' being that I believe[d] you are male, I don't know why though...it doesn't matter.  If you are a female person I will simply have to adjust and re-organise the boxing camp weekend.  It's not a problem, buddy, mate, chap.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> So 'vanity' in relation to 'theatre' is the mirror and make up desk? OK. I've learned something new.


not even just in relation to theatre. you just buy a table/mirror set for hair/makeup for your bathroom/bedroom. were you able to pull up my links of vanities I replied with? So you have a visual of what I'm referencing.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Ajoy said:


> I would really appreciate some of your sharp eyes on this blurb for my query letter:
> 
> The Olympian gods left Earth two millennia ago and some of their descendants refused to follow, creating the Godline—a nearly immortal people hidden away on Atlantis. The Godline population has since dwindled, and their magical gifts have become rare. Their desperate queen has spent the last three centuries forcing them to participate in her violent experiments to bring Godline magic back to their world.
> 
> When Alexa Delmon’s magic manifests near the end of her sophomore year at college, she discovers she’s been hidden from the Godline world in a Nymph village in Alaska. Unable to rest because of the vivid dreams consuming her nights, she reluctantly returns home seeking help from the only family she’s ever known.
> 
> But just as she begins learning the truth, an Atlantian hunter comes for Alexa, intent on returning her to the queen. When her parents stay behind to fight off the threat, it gives Alexa and her sister enough time to flee with an unexpected ally—the prince of Atlantis.
> 
> The trio arrives in a new city with only the promise of meeting some mysterious Godline mentor. But Alexa isn’t sure how long they have before her out-of-control magic brings the hunter down on them again.


This is one for those who have been published I think. I've never done a query letter and, as far as I can see, this is pretty good.


----------



## KeganThompson

Matchu said:


> That was my point.
> 
> My 'assumption' being that I believe[d] you are male, I don't know why though...it doesn't matter.  If you are a female person I will simply have to adjust and re-organise the boxing camp weekend.  It's not a problem, buddy, mate, chap.


even if I am or not, doesnt mean my MC is or is not. I like to write both (or attempt to at least lol)


----------



## Matchu

Yes, of course. 

I stated only how I began reading in blue colours and then re-adjusted to pink, and then toward brown and green reading flavours.  I was being so truly candid with the operations of my mind.

Probably I had been at work a long time and wanted to 'give it some' to those theatre extras [RAGE] as my despised tribe of the given hour.  I liked the write.  I tried to hop in but I only would have contracted/and deleted pronouns/most probably imposed personality :/....


----------



## KeganThompson

_I feel like if being an afterthought was preferred, getting noticed wouldn't be referred to as traction. Maybe just something like: "But then someone at work started sending me flowers.")_
I was going to change traction to something like attention. Someone is sending her flowers to her work and I do need to emphasize the attention she got from it. and go into that. and maybe afterthought isn't the correct work? I added that in (along with a few other things) when reworking it.

_(Is this meant to be sarcasm? Or a deep wish in oppostition to her stated preference of "being an afterthought"? I like the line, but I'm trying to figure out what it means when compared to the earlier sentiment.)_
its sarcasm, I just posted the first couple of paragraphs but a similar attitude pops up in the exposition/ narration as you read.. -it was originally in parenthesis but I was advised to remove them. and it was not the original beginning of the story, so when I first wrote it, based on the previous context it was probably more obvious that she was joking



Ajoy said:


> Nice, tight writing. I liked it.


thank you! Glad to see my writing is getting to be a little less awkward


----------



## Ajoy

TheMightyAz said:


> This is one for those who have been published I think. I've never done a query letter and, as far as I can see, this is pretty good.


Thanks. After a lot of research, I feel pretty good about how the blurb functions overall. I was just hoping for some eyes on the craft itself--for clarity and concision.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Ajoy said:


> Thanks. After a lot of research, I feel pretty good about how the blurb functions overall. I was just hoping for some eyes on the craft itself--for clarity and concision.


Ok, I'll be brutal with this. Cutting what I think adds nothing and changing what I think is slightly vague. Overall though, I still think it's well done.

*1/* The Olympian gods left Earth two millennia ago and some of their descendants refused to follow, creating the Godline—a nearly immortal people hidden away on Atlantis. *2/* The Godline population has since dwindled, and their magical gifts have become rare. Their desperate queen has spent the last three centuries forcing them to participate in her violent experiments to bring Godline magic back to their world.

*1/* Can you be 'nearly immortal'? Does immortal in the sense you use it mean they're invulnerable to harm or they'll live forever if not harmed. If they are immortal but can still be killed, I'd remove 'nearly'. But that still leaves a problem I think. Is there perhaps another word you could use or a phrase that suggests they live for an excessively long period of time? You could clarify by adding in the reason they've died, thus keeping the meaning accurate in the sense of live forever if not harmed. *2/* Here: *'The Godline population has since dwindled, victims of disease or famine, and their magical gifts have become rare.' *I would still not be happy with this. I think Godline is enough as long as you suggest they live for many hundreds or even thousands of years. *1/* *'The Olympian gods left Earth two millennia ago and some of their descendants refused to follow, creating the Godline. With a life expectancy far exceeding that of any human kind, they are viewed as immortal.'* Something like that. That gives my second line validity and also gives you a reason they've dwindled. 

*The Olympian gods left Earth two millennia ago and some of their descendants refused to follow, creating the Godline. With a life expectancy far exceeding that of any human kind, they are viewed as immortal. The Godline population has since dwindled, victims of disease or famine, and their magical gifts have become rare. Their desperate queen has spent the last three centuries forcing them to participate in her experiments to bring Godline magic back to their world.*

When Alexa Delmon’s magic manifests near the end of her sophomore year at college, she discovers she’s been hidden from the Godline world in a Nymph village in Alaska. Unable to rest because of the vivid dreams consuming her nights, she reluctantly returns home seeking help from the only family she’s ever known. <- I'm not sure who this family is. Perhaps a little detail here.

But just as she begins learning the truth, an Atlantian hunter comes for Alexa, intent on returning her to the queen. When her parents stay behind to fight off battle (perhaps) the threat, it gives Alexa and her sister enough time to flee with an unexpected ally—the prince of Atlantis.

The trio arrives in a new city with only the promise of meeting some mysterious Godline mentor. But Alexa isn’t sure how long they have before her out-of-control magic brings the hunter down on them again.


----------



## Ajoy

TheMightyAz said:


> Ok, I'll be brutal with this. Cutting what I think adds nothing and changing what I think is slightly vague. Overall though, I still think it's well done.
> 
> *1/* The Olympian gods left Earth two millennia ago and some of their descendants refused to follow, creating the Godline—a nearly immortal people hidden away on Atlantis. *2/* The Godline population has since dwindled, and their magical gifts have become rare. Their desperate queen has spent the last three centuries forcing them to participate in her violent experiments to bring Godline magic back to their world.
> 
> *1/* Can you be 'nearly immortal'? Does immortal in the sense you use it mean they're invulnerable to harm or they'll live forever if not harmed. If they are immortal but can still be killed, I'd remove 'nearly'. But that still leaves a problem I think. Is there perhaps another word you could use or a phrase that suggests they live for an excessively long period of time? You could clarify by adding in the reason they've died, thus keeping the meaning accurate in the sense of live forever if not harmed. *2/* Here: *'The Godline population has since dwindled, victims of disease or famine, and their magical gifts have become rare.' *I would still not be happy with this. I think Godline is enough as long as you suggest they live for many hundreds or even thousands of years. *1/* *'The Olympian gods left Earth two millennia ago and some of their descendants refused to follow, creating the Godline. With a life expectancy far exceeding that of any human kind, they are viewed as immortal.'* Something like that. That gives my second line validity and also gives you a reason they've dwindled.
> 
> *The Olympian gods left Earth two millennia ago and some of their descendants refused to follow, creating the Godline. With a life expectancy far exceeding that of any human kind, they are viewed as immortal. The Godline population has since dwindled, victims of disease or famine, and their magical gifts have become rare. Their desperate queen has spent the last three centuries forcing them to participate in her experiments to bring Godline magic back to their world.*
> 
> When Alexa Delmon’s magic manifests near the end of her sophomore year at college, she discovers she’s been hidden from the Godline world in a Nymph village in Alaska. Unable to rest because of the vivid dreams consuming her nights, she reluctantly returns home seeking help from the only family she’s ever known. <- I'm not sure who this family is. Perhaps a little detail here.
> 
> But just as she begins learning the truth, an Atlantian hunter comes for Alexa, intent on returning her to the queen. When her parents stay behind to fight off battle (perhaps) the threat, it gives Alexa and her sister enough time to flee with an unexpected ally—the prince of Atlantis.
> 
> The trio arrives in a new city with only the promise of meeting some mysterious Godline mentor. But Alexa isn’t sure how long they have before her out-of-control magic brings the hunter down on them again.


Thanks so much for this! I'll work with your notes and see if I can improve those areas you've pointed out. The Godline can be killed (though it requires significantly more damage than for a human because they have magically enhanced healing) but they don't die otherwise...so I'll have to think about how to rephrase that section given your feedback.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Ajoy said:


> Thanks so much for this! I'll work with your notes and see if I can improve those areas you've pointed out. The Godline can be killed (though it requires significantly more damage than for a human because they have magically enhanced healing) but they don't die otherwise...so I'll have to think about how to rephrase that section given your feedback.


What is thinning their numbers? Maybe 'disease and war' instead then?


----------



## Ajoy

TheMightyAz said:


> What is thinning their numbers? Maybe 'disease and war' instead then?


Ah, right, I meant to answer that as well. The Olympians cursed them multiple times in retaliation for staying behind. Hephestus made 100 swords actually capable of killing the Godline and handed them out just before he left. Then Ares left a strife curse that made all of them more prone to violence. (Those curses did get resolved when one of the rulers sacrificed himself to destroy the swords). But almost immediately after that (ten years), Hera got mad at how the latest ruler was ignoring the prophecies (basically the way the Olympians have been trying to give directives to rule their descendants from afar) and she cursed the Godline with infertility (only allowing pregnancies in those she approves of for some reason). Godline magic is disappearing because the gods have terrible attention spans and the more time that passes, the more they forget to bless the few births that do happen (even though the gods are pissed at their descendants, they're also pretty vain and enjoy flaunting the talents of their descendants.)

So yeah...I'm trying to figure out how to get the essence of that across, understandably, in a phrase or a sentence.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Ajoy said:


> Ah, right, I meant to answer that as well. The Olympians cursed them multiple times in retaliation for staying behind. Hephestus made 100 swords actually capable of killing the Godline and handed them out just before he left. Then Ares left a strife curse that made all of them more prone to violence. (Those curses did get resolved when one of the rulers sacrificed himself to destroy the swords). But almost immediately after that (ten years), Hera got mad at how the latest ruler was ignoring the prophecies (basically the way the Olympians have been trying to give directives to rule their descendants from afar) and she cursed the Godline with infertility (only allowing pregnancies in those she approves of for some reason). Godline magic is disappearing because the gods have terrible attention spans and the more time that passes, the more they forget to bless the few births that do happen (even though the gods are pissed at their descendants, they're also pretty vain and enjoy flaunting the talents of their descendants.)
> 
> So yeah...I'm trying to figure out how to get the essence of that across, understandably, in a phrase or a sentence.


I really wouldn't worry about detail in the summary. You just need the essence of what happened and leave the actual story to fill in the detail:

* The Godline population has since dwindled, victims of a cursed war, and their magical gifts have become rare.*


----------



## Ajoy

Here is a revision...

When the Olympian Gods left Earth two millennia ago, some of their descendants refused to follow—creating the Godline on Atlantis. After a series of retaliatory curses by the gods, Godline population has dwindled and their magical gifts have become rare. In desperation, their queen has resorted to forced participation in her experiments to return their magic.

When Alexa Delmon’s magic manifests near the end of her sophomore year at college, it isn’t long before her parents are forced to admit she isn’t human. She isn’t even a Nymph like them or anyone else in the Alaskan village where she was raised. She's a Godline fugitive.

Unable to rest because of the vivid dreams now consuming her nights, she reluctantly returns home for help. But just as she begins to unravel the truth, an Atlantian hunter comes for Alexa, intent on returning her to the queen. When her parents stay behind to hold off the threat, it gives Alexa and her sister enough time to flee with an unexpected ally—the prince of Atlantis.

 The trio arrive in a new city with only the promise of meeting some mysterious Godline mentor. But Alexa isn’t sure how long they have before her out-of-control magic brings the hunter down on them again.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Ajoy said:


> Here is a revision...
> 
> When the Olympian Gods left Earth two millennia ago, some of their descendants refused to follow—creating the Godline on Atlantis. After a series of retaliatory curses by the gods, Godline population has dwindled and their magical gifts have become rare. In desperation, their queen has resorted to forced participation in her experiments to return their magic.



This is definitely tighter but you've mentioned the Gods left and then, in the next sentence, 'after' a series of retaliatory curses. There's a slight discrepancy in the timeline there. If they left, they wouldn't be there to retaliate. Quickfix: 'However, the angry gods left a curse behind and now the Godline has dwindled and their magical gifts (magic?) has become rare.' 



Ajoy said:


> When Alexa Delmon’s magic manifests near the end of her sophomore year at college, it isn’t long before her parents are forced to admit she isn’t human. She isn’t even a Nymph like them or anyone else in the Alaskan village where she was raised. She's a Godline fugitive.
> 
> Unable to rest because of the vivid dreams now consuming her nights, she reluctantly returns home for help. But just as she begins to unravel the truth, an Atlantian hunter comes for Alexa, intent on returning her to the queen. When her parents stay behind to hold off the threat, it gives Alexa and her sister enough time to flee with an unexpected ally—the prince of Atlantis.
> 
> The trio arrive in a new city with only the promise of meeting some mysterious Godline mentor. But Alexa isn’t sure how long they have before her out-of-control magic brings the hunter down on them again.


----------



## Ajoy

TheMightyAz said:


> This is definitely tighter but you've mentioned the Gods left and then, in the next sentence, 'after' a series of retaliatory curses. There's a slight discrepancy in the timeline there. If they left, they wouldn't be there to retaliate. Quickfix: 'However, the angry gods left a curse behind and now the Godline has dwindled and their magical gifts (magic?) has become rare.'


Yes, good point! I'll play around with your suggestion. Thanks!


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Ajoy said:


> Yes, good point! I'll play around with your suggestion. Thanks!


How's it coming along?


----------



## Ajoy

TheMightyAz said:


> How's it coming along?


I rewrote it fairly significantly and have been sitting on it since yesterday...trying to feel out how I like the changes. I couldn't get the past tense in the first paragraph to flow easily into the present tense of the rest without it feeling clunky in the original version. Here's what I'm feeling out right now for the new version:

When Alexa Delmon’s magic manifests near the end of her sophomore year at college, it isn’t long before her parents are forced to admit she isn’t human. She isn’t even a Nymph like them or anyone else in the Alaskan village where she was raised. She’s a Godline fugitive—a runaway descendent of Greek gods and royalty of Atlantis.

Unable to rest because of the vivid dreams now consuming her nights, she reluctantly returns home for help. But just as she begins to unravel the truth, an Atlantian hunter comes for Alexa, intent on returning her to the experiment chambers of the mad queen. When her parents stay behind to hold off the threat, it gives Alexa and her sister enough time to flee with an unexpected ally—the prince of Atlantis.

 The trio arrive in a new city with only the promise of meeting some mysterious Godline mentor. But Alexa isn’t sure how long they have before her out-of-control magic brings the hunter down on them again.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Ajoy said:


> I rewrote it fairly significantly and have been sitting on it since yesterday...trying to feel out how I like the changes. I couldn't get the past tense in the first paragraph to flow easily into the present tense of the rest without it feeling clunky in the original version. Here's what I'm feeling out right now for the new version:
> 
> When Alexa Delmon’s magic manifests near the end of her sophomore year at college, it isn’t long before her parents are forced to admit she isn’t human. she isn’t even a Nymph like them or anyone else in the Alaskan village where she was raised. She’s a Godline fugitive—a runaway descendent of Greek gods and royalty of Atlantis.
> 
> Unable to rest because of the vivid dreams now consuming her nights, she reluctantly returns home for help. But just as she begins to unravel the truth, an Atlantian hunter comes for Alexa, intent on returning her to the experiment chambers of the mad queen. When her parents stay behind to hold off the threat, it gives Alexa and her sister enough time to flee with an unexpected ally—the prince of Atlantis.
> 
> The trio arrive in a new city with only the promise of meeting some mysterious Godline mentor. But Alexa isn’t sure how long they have before her out-of-control magic brings the hunter down on them again.


This is a good revision. Just a few words you could easily lose.


----------



## Ajoy

TheMightyAz said:


> This is a good revision. Just a few words you could easily lose.


Nice! Thanks!


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Ajoy said:


> Nice! Thanks!


The tighter the better. I don't think you lose anything by losing those words. I'd say it's done with those cuts.


----------



## alpacinoutd

I wrote this for practice. I would appreciate your comments. 

Lisa stepped onto the balcony and cast a glance over the lake. The moon hovered above the clouds, its rays split into thin beams, bleeding through openings in the clouds and smudging the lake with dappled light. Suddenly, she felt a craving to dip her toes in the water.

Walking downstairs, she grabbed a bottle of wine from the fridge and walked out of the villa. The wind moved somberly in a group of trees painted black in the shadow of the night. She walked past them and reached the shell-strewn beach. The lake was placid, not a single ripple on it. The stillness of the water was at odds with what was going on inside her where self-pity and resentment swirled.

The sound of footsteps jolted her out of her reverie. It was her husband, Derek. "I saw you staring at the water. Can I join you?" he asked, cautiously.

"Sure," she answered in a blank voice.

They didn't have much to say to each other. As usual, silence filled the air between them. She withdrew inward, back into her own world. He retreated back into his shell and the invisible glass wall reared up between them again.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> I wrote this for practice. I would appreciate your comments.
> 
> *1/* Lisa stepped onto the balcony and cast a glance over the lake. *2/* The moon hovered above the clouds, its rays split into thin beams, bleeding through openings in the clouds and smudging the lake with dappled light. *3/* Suddenly, she felt a craving to dip her toes in the water.



*1/ *It's easy to get hooked on rhythm and forget what is actually being conveyed. If the rhythm in some way changes or adds to what's being said, then that's great, but if on removing it, you find it doesn't add anything then chances are it can be removed. 'cast a glance over the lake' versus 'glanced over the lake'. You could argue that including 'cast' there creates the idea of a more sweeping observation of the lake, but then you also have 'over' which also doubles to create that idea. 'cast a glance' has a nice poetic ring to it but 'glanced' is more than enough there. If you want to add words to increase the rhythm and texture of a sentence/paragraph, which is a legitimate thing to do as far as I'm concerned, don't stretch out a single idea/description by adding words to IT ('cast a glance' instead of simply 'glanced'), add in extra texture separate from that single word. *2/* Lots going on here. If I think in terms of physics, none of this actually pans out. First thing you have a moon that 'hovered'. This isn't a solid state, it's a fluctuating state with a little movement. The moon would be rock solid. The moon by default is behind the clouds. It's never in front of them. In order to maintain the general structure of the sentence here, you'd have to consider an alternative state for the moon. In this case, looking at what follows, I'd probably go for something like 'The moon hid behind the clouds'. Although you've still got that same point I made about where the moon is going to be in relation to the clouds, the new idea of 'hiding' justifies' the description and personifies the moon. 'it's rays split into thin beams'. There are two states for the light coming from the moon here BEFORE that light hits the clouds. Think about it. You have a beam and then for no apparent reason, that beam splits into rays (presumably narrower). If they 'split' then how would that look anyway? I get the visual of a ray coming straight down and then splitting off into many thin beams, each going off at a slight angle. Then you have the problem of 'rays' and 'beams'. Both are pretty much the same. 'Bleeding through'. Beams and rays and perfectly straight. Considering physics again, 'bleeding through' doesn't match something that's perfectly straight. 'Pierced' does though and other words of that nature. 'Smudge' and 'dappled' is another uncomfortable coupling. A smudge isn't clear, it's the spreading of something thin with no distinctive edge. This needs a lot of rethinking. Maybe two sentences. *3/* This is a perfect example of why you should avoid 'suddenly' as much as possible. Just read that sentence and imagine that happening in real life. She suddenly decided she wanted to dip her toe in the water? The work needed is done by the sentence: *'She felt a craving to dip her toes in the water.'*



alpacinoutd said:


> *1/ *Walking downstairs, she grabbed a bottle of wine from the fridge and walked out of the villa. *2/ *The wind moved somberly in a group of trees painted black in the shadow of the night. *3/ *She walked past them and reached the shell-strewn beach. *4/ *The lake was placid, not a single ripple on it. The stillness of the water was at odds with what was going on inside her where self-pity and resentment swirled.



*1/ *Where is this fridge? On the stairs?* 'After she came downstairs, she grabbed a bottle of wine from the fridge and walked out of the villa.' 2/ *I kinda like this but I'd want to work with it more. You can't see the wind and you wouldn't be able to see the trees because they're painted black ... and in the shadows ... at night. Now that's dark. Bring that light up and attribute the sombreness to the movement of the trees in the wind. *3/* This feels like an unimportant piece of information. And I'm not sure you'd have a beach on a lake. Maybe you can ... I don't know. It just doesn't feel right. How did she feel when she walked beneath the sombre trees? I say beneath because it's far more intimate than 'past'. *4/* You've set this up for the last sentence but in doing so created an awkward transition. It's clunky and you don't need it. The last sentence does the job. What you've said here is: The water's still, the water's still. The stillness of the water. 



alpacinoutd said:


> The sound of footsteps jolted her out of her reverie. It was her husband, Derek. "I saw you staring at the water. Can I join you?" he asked, cautiously.
> 
> "Sure," she answered in a blank voice.
> 
> They didn't have much to say to each other. As usual, silence filled the air between them. She withdrew inward, back into her own world. He retreated back into his shell and the invisible glass wall reared up between them again.


----------



## alpacinoutd

I have written a few things which are not related. 

Firstly, is this okay?

After tossing and turning for several minutes, she managed to fall sleep. In her dream, uncle Tommy was wandering the corridors of their old house like a ghost. She was hovering close to wakefulness, and his image became blurrier, receding into black. 

------------------
Secondly, I want to say a person stops smiling. Are these okay?

1. She saw the message on her phone. The smile drained from her face.
2. She saw the message on her phone. The smile vanished from her face.
3. She saw the message on her phone. The smile on her face crumpled.
4. She the message on her phone. The smile on her face dimmed.
5. She the message on her phone. The smile on her face receded.

---------------
Thirdly, Is it okay to say "smile through" something?

1. After the funeral, Jane returned home, exhausted. Jim had left her a bouquet of flowers on the coffee table. She managed to smile through her grief after picking up the flowers.
2. She remembered the old days in her home, her childhood. Somehow, she managed to smile through a mix of homesickness and nostalgia. 
3. After a long day, he saw her email. He managed to smile through all the pain and misery of the day. 
4. She remembered the nights they stayed awake together and did silly things. She managed to smile through the lonely night.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> I have written a few things which are not related.
> 
> Firstly, is this okay?
> 
> After tossing and turning for several minutes, she managed to fall sleep. In her dream, uncle Tommy was wandering the corridors of their old house like a ghost. She was hovering close to wakefulness, and his image became blurrier, receding into black.



Keep your eye on those 'was's. 'was wondering' = 'wondered', 'was hovering' = 'hovered'. 'black' stands out there weakly. 'the darkness' would be stronger. You're writing this and a lot of your stuff on the back foot. It feels reluctant some how as if the sentences are shy. 'After tossing and turning several minutes' instead of 'She tossed and turned for several minutes' It's a dream and yet even in her dream she sees Tommy as a simile (like a ghost). 

*'She tossed and turned for several minutes before she managed to fall asleep. In her dreams uncle Tommy wandered the corridors of their old house. She hovered close to wakefulness, his image blurring, receding into darkness.'*



alpacinoutd said:


> ------------------
> Secondly, I want to say a person stops smiling. Are these okay?
> 
> 1. She saw the message on her phone. The smile drained from her face.



This one's weak. It's that word relationship again. Think about how words relate to one another. Imagine a word has physics and shape. A smile is a physical thing. If you 'drained' a smile, what would that look like? 



alpacinoutd said:


> 2. She saw the message on her phone. The smile vanished from her face.



Better. In this case the physical smile has simply disappeared. It was there and then it was gone. There's no awkward physics related problems. It's just an 'on/off' situation. 'on her face'. Where else would a smile be? *'Her smile vanished'.* 



alpacinoutd said:


> 3. She saw the message on her phone. The smile on her face crumpled.



Crumpled works here because it has a physical effect on a physical object. It creates the idea the smile doesn't just disappear, it fights to maintain its form for a while as it slowly disappears. Again though: *'Her smile crumpled'.* 



alpacinoutd said:


> 4. She saw the message on her phone. The smile on her face dimmed.



Again we have a physical thing that's acting like a none-physical thing. You could change this to a more abstract representation of what the smile means, which takes away the physical aspect: *'her joy dimmed'*. 



alpacinoutd said:


> 5. She the message on her phone. The smile on her face receded.



The same as above. *'The ball rolled along the landing, bounced down the stairs and landed in the dog basket'*. *'The wooden block slid across the landing, clattered down the stairs and hit the dog basket'. *It's a little more complicated sometimes depending on modifying words and overall image but if you concentrate on seeing words as physical things, you'll pick the right word more often. I'll give you an example so you see what I mean about modifiers: *'Her bright smile dimmed'* Not the greatest example but do you see how the 'physics' aspect of that sentence has shifted and we're now twinning 'dimmed' with 'bright' (abstract) and not 'smile' (physical)?



alpacinoutd said:


> ---------------
> Thirdly, Is it okay to say "smile through" something?
> 
> 1. After the funeral, Jane returned home, exhausted. Jim had left her a bouquet of flowers on the coffee table. She managed to smile through her grief after picking up the flowers.



Yes, you can say 'smile through' Grief is a big word though. If you say she smiled through her grief, you're implying she 'dealt with' her grief by picking up the flowers. I'd want to tone that down: *'She managed to smile through her tears after picking up the flowers'. *The grief still hasn't been dealt with but the manifestation of that grief has been hidden for now. 



alpacinoutd said:


> 2. She remembered the old days in her home, her childhood. Somehow, she managed to smile through a mix of homesickness and nostalgia.



This is fine. I'd want to rework this slightly but the question is about 'smile through' and this works. 



alpacinoutd said:


> 3. After a long day, he saw her email. He managed to smile through all the pain and misery of the day.



Yep.



alpacinoutd said:


> 4. She remembered the nights they stayed awake together and did silly things. She managed to smile through the lonely night.


And again, yep.


----------



## Lawless

(Situation: we are already seeing the enemies, but they are not yet seeing us. I don't expect us to be able to remain hidden for long.)

Which one is grammatically correct?
A. It's only a matter of seconds until we'll be spotted.
B. It'll be only a matter of seconds until we're spotted.
C. It'll be only a matter of seconds until we'll be spotted.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Lawless said:


> (Situation: we are already seeing the enemies, but they are not yet seeing us. I don't expect us to be able to remain hidden for long.)
> 
> Which one is grammatically correct?
> A. It's only a matter of seconds until we'll be spotted.
> B. It'll be only a matter of seconds until we're spotted.
> C. It'll be only a matter of seconds until we'll be spotted.


This is a head-scratcher for me. Which do you think is right? The fact you've managed to write this in three different ways suggests you already have a good idea which is correct. What's the context of this? Perhaps if you post the paragraph this appears in, that would help.  I'd plump for b just because the other two are passive ...


----------



## Lawless

TheMightyAz said:


> The fact you've managed to write this in three different ways suggests you already have a good idea which is correct.



Not at all. It's a construct with which I find myself struggling all the time. Like, is it "I'll call you when he turns up," or "I'll call you when he'll turn up?" I mean, my calling you is in the future and his arrival is also in the future, but do you put both verbs into the future tense?


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Lawless said:


> Not at all. It's a construct with which I find myself struggling all the time. Like, is it "I'll call you when he turns up," or "I'll call you when he'll turn up?" I mean, my calling you is in the future and his arrival is also in the future, but do you put both verbs into the future tense?


Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm not a grammar buff and I'd love if more people with a better grasp of grammar would contribute more to this thread! I tend to write grammar instinctively which means most of the time I'm writing within the confines of that 'instinct'. Therefore my sentence structures avoid most things I don't know!

In that instance, my instinct would be to go with 'I'll call you when he turns up'. If you remove the contractions, it becomes clearer which sounds awkward and which doesn't. 'I will call you when he will turn up' is clearly wrong, even if you or I don't know much about grammar.

However, explaining why using grammatical terminology isn't something I could do there.


----------



## Lawless

TheMightyAz said:


> In that instance, my instinct would be to go with 'I'll call you when he turns up'. If you remove the contractions, it becomes clearer which sounds awkward and which doesn't. 'I will call you when he will turn up' is clearly wrong, even if you or I don't know much about grammar.



Thanks. Now I got the answer I was looking for.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Lawless said:


> Thanks. Now I got the answer I was looking for.


As I said, I write grammar instinctively and whilst I know I'm right in saying which is right there, I think it would be great if someone with a complete knowledge of grammar could break it down and explain just why it's the right choice.


----------



## JBF

TheMightyAz said:


> I'd love if more people with a better grasp of grammar would contribute more to this thread!



Hence my continuing silence.    

To the last question: are we focusing on the time or the enemy?  Law of primacy says things are listed in descending priority, so as it stands the big concern is _time _rather than _being spotted_.  A third possibility resides in _what happens when they spot us._

Your issue here may be more one of priority rather than grammar.  

To keep up with the theory, consider the parts in light of Time, Subject, and Action



Lawless said:


> A. It's only a matter of seconds until we'll be spotted.
> B. It'll be only a matter of seconds until we're spotted.
> C. It'll be only a matter of seconds until we'll be spotted.



We'll be spotted in a matter of seconds
In a matter of seconds they'll spot us.
Spotting us in a matter of seconds, they...

Thuough Az's bit about dropping contractions seems to be a pretty good indicator, too.


----------



## alpacinoutd

I want to express the idea that a person's childhood has an impact on how they interact with people in their adulthood. 

Is this correct?
_
Jack wasn't a people's person, not quite a psychopath but he was content with his solitary existence. Every time he tried to get close to someone, an invisible force pulled him away back into the quarter of solitude. His inability to connect with people, to truly love and care about another being was the remnant of a broken childhood. _


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> I want to express the idea that a person's childhood has an impact on how they interact with people in their adulthood.
> 
> Is this correct?
> 
> _Jack wasn't a people's person, not quite a psychopath but he was content with his solitary existence. Every time he tried to get close to someone, an invisible force pulled him away back into the quarter of solitude. His inability to connect with people, to truly love and care about another being was the remnant of a broken childhood. _


Most times I hear the phrase as 'people person' not 'people's person'. In fact I'd be tempted to link the two 'people-person'. Psychopath is a tad strong. Did you mean sociopath? I'd consider focusing in on 'invisible force'. That could be your opportunity to express something uniquely yours. As it stands it's neither here nor there. 'the quarter of solitude' is too much, unless, again, you want to add something uniquely yours. If not, 'solitude' is all you need. 

But yeah, it does express what you intended. Bare in mind though, you'd be wanting to show this rather than simply spelling it out. It's an important character trait.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Does this image require more description or is it clear? The gown was thrown open and draped over the throne:

She stood from the throne with grace and took up the gown in both hands as momentum brought both halves swishing together. She tied its cord once, stepped forward and tied it a second time, held the ends daintily between her fingers and teased the knot together as if uniting lovers.​
My question is about the 'and teased the knot together' In order to do that she has to pull the cords outwards. Should I add that or is it implicit in the action she's done that in order for the knot to tighten. I want to keep 'teased' because it's a very slow and deliberate action, which is why I removed 'pulled in either direction' :

She tied its cord once, stepped forward and tied it a second time, held the ends daintily between her fingers, pulled in either direction, and teased the knot together as if uniting lovers.

IGNORE, I'VE OPTED FOR THIS:

She tied its cord once, stepped forward and tied it a second time, held the ends daintily between her fingers, teased them in either direction, and brought the knot together as if uniting lovers.​


----------



## Ajoy

TheMightyAz said:


> Does this image require more description or is it clear? The gown was thrown open and draped over the throne:
> 
> She stood from the throne with grace and took up the gown in both hands as momentum brought both halves swishing together. She tied its cord once, stepped forward and tied it a second time, held the ends daintily between her fingers and teased the knot together as if uniting lovers.​
> My question is about the 'and teased the knot together' In order to do that she has to pull the cords outwards. Should I add that or is it implicit in the action she's done that in order for the knot to tighten. I want to keep 'teased' because it's a very slow and deliberate action, which is why I removed 'pulled in either direction' :
> 
> She tied its cord once, stepped forward and tied it a second time, held the ends daintily between her fingers, pulled in either direction, and teased the knot together as if uniting lovers.
> 
> IGNORE, I'VE OPTED FOR THIS:
> 
> She tied its cord once, stepped forward and tied it a second time, held the ends daintily between her fingers, teased them in either direction, and brought the knot together as if uniting lovers.​


I was going to say I don't think you need the pulling detail (I think the action is implicit in knot tying), but you found a way to work in in nicely enough. Though I get the general idea of her tying some part of a gown around her...waist?....I'm confused by the opening line (and maybe in context I wouldn't be. Was she sitting and then she got up? Was she standing in front of the throne? I can't quite see this full image.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Ajoy said:


> I was going to say I don't think you need the pulling detail (I think the action is implicit in knot tying), but you found a way to work in in nicely enough. Though I get the general idea of her tying some part of a gown around her...waist?....I'm confused by the opening line (and maybe in context I wouldn't be. Was she sitting and then she got up? Was she standing in front of the throne? I can't quite see this full image.


The gown was thrown open and she was sat on the throne. Obviously, she still has her arms through the sleeves, so, when she suddenly stands from the throne, the gown swishes together.


----------



## Ajoy

TheMightyAz said:


> The gown was thrown open and she was sat on the throne. Obviously, she still has her arms through the sleeves, so, when she suddenly stands from the throne, the gown swishes together.


Okay, that is basically what I imagined. I think I was thrown on the mechanics of the gown, but it sounds kind of robe like in structure, is that correct? My default when imagining a gown is that the front doesn't open, but you're describing more like a dressing gown, right? I've sort of derailed from your original question though. Sorry about that. I think your revised line works and enjoy the image of the whole paragraph, despite my initial confusion (the words painted the picture; my brain just got hung up on my own prior knowledge.).


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Ajoy said:


> Okay, that is basically what I imagined. I think I was thrown on the mechanics of the gown, but it sounds kind of robe like in structure, is that correct? My default when imagining a gown is that the front doesn't open, but you're describing more like a dressing gown, right? I've sort of derailed from your original question though. Sorry about that. I think your revised line works and enjoy the image of the whole paragraph, despite my initial confusion (the words painted the picture; my brain just got hung up on my own prior knowledge.).


There's a few little details and tweaks I'll be making at some point in the future just to clarify things. Yeah, it's a dressing gown. I'll actually edit that in now.


----------



## alpacinoutd

Is this correct?

Brook's gaze was fixed on the plane's rain-sprayed window. The Boeing 747 roared along the rain-slickened runway, and soared into the sky. She looked out the window, watching New York sink away beneath her.

What other options do I have instead of "sink away"?


----------



## KeganThompson

alpacinoutd said:


> Is this correct?
> 
> Brook's gaze was fixed on the plane's rain-sprayed window. The Boeing 747 roared along the rain-slickened runway, and soared into the sky. She looked out the window, watching New York sink away beneath her.
> 
> What other options do I have instead of "sink away"?


Personally, I think you need to find better words for "rain-sprayed" and "rain-slickened"


----------



## alpacinoutd

KeganThompson said:


> Personally, I think you need to find better words for "rain-sprayed" and "rain-slickened"



What about this?

Brook's gaze was fixed on the plane's window. The Boeing 747 roared along the wet runway, and soared into the sky. Through the rain-spattered window, she watched New York sink away beneath her.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> What about this?
> 
> Brook's gaze was fixed on the plane's window. The Boeing 747 roared along the wet runway, and soared into the sky. Through the rain-spattered window, she watched New York sink away beneath her


There's no need for the first sentence. 

The Boeing 747 roared along the rain-swept runway and soared into the sky. Through the plane's window, she watched New York sink away.


----------



## VRanger

alpacinoutd said:


> What about this?
> 
> Brook's gaze was fixed on the plane's window. The Boeing 747 roared along the wet runway, and soared into the sky. Through the rain-spattered window, she watched New York sink away beneath her.


Kegan was correct about the two "rain" phrases in close proximity, but I'd also do something with the 747 sentence. It's a bit trite. You want to give something like that a fresh sound in your own style.


----------



## VRanger

alpacinoutd said:


> I want to express the idea that a person's childhood has an impact on how they interact with people in their adulthood.
> 
> Is this correct?
> 
> _Jack wasn't a people's person, not quite a psychopath but he was content with his solitary existence. Every time he tried to get close to someone, an invisible force pulled him away back into the quarter of solitude. His inability to connect with people, to truly love and care about another being was the remnant of a broken childhood. _


And on this one, Az was right about "people person", and "sociopath" instead of "psychopath". In addition, I'd break that first sentence into two sentences. Both thoughts are important thoughts, so I like giving them their own space. Last sentence needs a comma after "being". You don't have to, but it would be stronger if you rearranged and rewrote it to get rid of the copula (linking verb), "was".


----------



## Matchu

Brook gazed through a window.

_insert pause here._

Her Boeing 747 thundered along the slick runway and tore into the skies above.

_sound fx_

New York sank away beneath her ass [ww].


----------



## alpacinoutd

What other options do I have if I don't want to use "sink away"?


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## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> What other options do I have if I don't want to use "sink away"?


I like 'sink away'. Why do you want to change it?


----------



## alpacinoutd

TheMightyAz said:


> I like 'sink away'. Why do you want to change it?


I want to learn alternatives. Just to expand my vocabulary.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> I want to learn alternatives. Just to expand my vocabulary.


It's not a 'vocabulary' thing. It's about viewing it in different ways. The reason I like 'sink away' is it expresses multiple things. Outwardly it describes the physical aspect of the scene, but inwardly it could be reflecting how she feels. You have the phrase 'sinking feeling' which means a sense of loss or bad things to come. 'Away' emphasis the distance between that possible alternative connection, moving beyond her reach. A memory she fears losing. A place she fears deserting. 

Nevertheless:

she watched New York dwindle.
she watched New York fade into the landscape.
she watched New York turn into one solitary and insignificant spec of light.
she watched the grandeur of New York shrink.
she watched New York drop away.


----------



## alpacinoutd

Is there an adjective to describe the smell of plane trees?

I want it to complete this:

_She decided to sleep in Jack's place in Kensington. She woke to the *..... *smell of plane trees, drifting through the half-open window of his flat. _


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> Is there an adjective to describe the smell of plane trees?
> 
> I want it to complete this:
> 
> _She decided to sleep in Jack's place in Kensington. She woke to the *..... *smell of plane trees, drifting through the half-open window of his flat. _


First of all use 'at Jack's place' to get rid of that repeat. I wouldn't know what that adjective is. I'd research it.

edit:

[5] The plane does indeed exude a pleasant fragrance, which is *sweet, balsamic, and faintly perceptible as* one approaches.


----------



## alpacinoutd

I've written something which I know needs to be developed. But is this correct and natural-sounding now?

Sara's childhood had been a disaster. She'd gone through an array of suffering and it was suffering which had turned her into a psychopath. She was 20 when she realized seeing other people's pain gave her a vague satisfaction. 
Gareth, when she found him, turned out to be the perfect channel for her sadistic inclinations. She'd experienced a series of disastrous relationships with men who would run when she showed them her true colors. But in Gareth she'd found a mild, meek boy who would stay after she inflicted pain on him. She could make him suffer to her heart's content, like the world had made her suffer.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> I've written something which I know needs to be developed. But is this correct and natural-sounding now?
> 
> Sara's childhood had been a disaster. *1/* She'd gone through an array of suffering and it was suffering which had turned her into a psychopath. She was 20 when she realized seeing other people's pain gave her a vague satisfaction.
> Gareth, when she found him, turned out to be the perfect channel for her sadistic inclinations sadism. *2/ *She'd experienced a series of disastrous relationships with men who would run when she showed them her true colors. *3/* But in Gareth she'd found a mild, meek boy who would stay after she inflicted pain on him. She could make him suffer to her heart's content, like the world had made her suffer.


*1/* If you're going to repeat a word to emphasis it, then you need to make sure it hits hard. I also think calling her a psychopath is too direct. Presumably this is the protag and I hardly think she'd call herself a psychopath. You're still stretching sentences into filler territory. It sometimes works if it fits in with the style but here it sticks out awkwardly 'gone through an array of suffering' could easily be 'she'd suffered'. 'She'd suffered and that suffering had given her a cruel and bitter streak.' You've called her a psychopath and then said she feels a 'vague satisfaction'. I don't think it would be vague. *2/* Wouldn't you run from a psychopath? I did. You need to rethink this whole psychopath thing. I'm not sure it means what you think it does. Here she is kinda complaining she's had a slew of bad relationships as if they should accept her sadism. *3/* Here's the heart of the theme. It's that transition between the two that's problematic. You either need to lean into her indifference towards her partners or change it to something that reflect her understanding of the situation. This is Aryngroth by the way ...


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

I'd written a description of Aryngroth and had her hair transform into fire but then realised she's a witch and can only manipulate matter, not utilise elements. I had to change it and wondered if this works. Full paragraph:

A wreath of scarlet hair writhed about her upturned face as if submersed in a blissful ocean and charmed by the undercurrents. She gazed up—plump lips parted—at the vaulted ceiling, and viewed a chandelier indifferently, its grandeur befouled and derelict along with everything else in Havshom Manor. The old building creaked and cracked; its history stolen one gasp at a time.​


----------



## Ajoy

TheMightyAz said:


> I'd written a description of Aryngroth and had her hair transform into fire but then realised she's a witch and can only manipulate matter, not utilise elements. I had to change it and wondered if this works. Full paragraph:
> 
> A wreath of scarlet hair writhed about her upturned face as if submersed in a blissful ocean and charmed by the undercurrents. She gazed up—plump lips parted—at the vaulted ceiling, and viewed a chandelier indifferently, its grandeur befouled and derelict along with everything else in Havshom Manor. The old building creaked and cracked; its history stolen one gasp at a time.​


I wonder if there is a more water connected term you could use instead of a wreath. I think it technically works, but it would be cool if that part of the sentence kept with the water imagery.


----------



## LoveofWriting

TheMightyAz said:


> I'd written a description of Aryngroth and had her hair transform into fire but then realised she's a witch and can only manipulate matter, not utilise elements. I had to change it and wondered if this works. Full paragraph:
> 
> A wreath of scarlet hair writhed about her upturned face as if submersed in a blissful ocean and charmed by the undercurrents. She gazed up—plump lips parted—at the vaulted ceiling, and viewed a chandelier indifferently, its grandeur befouled and derelict along with everything else in Havshom Manor. The old building creaked and cracked; its history stolen one gasp at a time.​



Pretty good paragraph, works for me.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

LoveofWriting said:


> Pretty good paragraph, works for me.


Thanks very much. 


Ajoy said:


> I wonder if there is a more water connected term you could use instead of a wreath. I think it technically works, but it would be cool if that part of the sentence kept with the water imagery.


That's a good point. Wreath is a bit specific there and kinda calls out for an echo.


----------



## alpacinoutd

Is this correct and natural?

The city looked busy but beautiful as she drove home. Traffic moved sluggishly and the sidewalks were bursting with pedestrians out to enjoy the bars in the early autumn evening. Stuck behind a red light, she fished out her phone from her pocket and began to scroll through the notifications. Suddenly a vague pain bloomed in her chest and receded. As the light turned green, the pain came back and grew stronger, spreading through her entire upper body. The lights of the city appeared as if they were dimming and her vision became blurry. She stopped the car and crawled out, trying to scream but she couldn't. Only a faint moan escaped her lips, swallowed by the murmur of London's rush. When she collapsed, she realized her heart was giving out. The world was going black and her thoughts were fading. She tried to grab her phone but her hand wouldn't respond.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> Is this correct and natural?
> 
> *1/ *The city looked busy but beautiful as she drove home. Traffic moved sluggishly and the sidewalks were bursting with pedestrians out to enjoy the bars in the early autumn evening. *2/* Stuck behind a red light, she fished out her phone from her pocket and began to scroll through the notifications.* 3/ *Suddenly a vague pain bloomed in her chest and receded. As the light turned green, the pain came back and grew stronger, spreading through her entire upper body. *4/* The lights of the city appeared as if they were dimming and her vision became blurry. She stopped the car and crawled out, trying to scream but she couldn't. *5/ *Only a faint moan escaped her lips, swallowed by the murmur of London's rush. *6/* When she collapsed, she realized her heart was giving out. *7/* The world was going black and her thoughts were fading. She tried to grab her phone but her hand wouldn't respond.


*1/* You've got to be careful with the use of 'but'. It basically means 'in contrast', so what you're saying is a busy city is usually ugly. Use 'and' to keep it neutral. *2/* Another thing to look out for is words like 'began'. The action itself tells us we've gone from one state to another. And 'fished' is a complete image. The word 'out' isn't necessary.  *'... she fished her phone from her pocket and scrolled through the notifications.*' *3/* 'Suddenly' is another one of those words to keep an eye out for. In most cases it isn't needed--doubly so here because you've gone on to use the verb 'bloomed' A 'vague pain' would be an 'ache'. If you find yourself modifying verbs, check to see if you can find a verb that expresses it better without needing to be modified. As in 'he ran fast' versus 'he sprinted'. Here's a case in which a contrast (but) would fit:* 'An ache bloomed in her chest but quickly receded'.* I'd question 'bloomed' and 'receded' too. 'Bloomed' is a positive word and you're describing a pain. 'Receded' is kinda right but it's more associated with 'moving back from'. 'diminished' is a better word:* 'An ache grew in her chest but quickly diminished'.* I've added 'quickly' because without it, it feels more like a rushed sentence than an intentional expression of what happened. Even though 'diminished' is a process that takes time, it still feels too fast and too abrupt on its own. *4/* 'Became' is another one of those words. Rather like 'began', the actual actions show the sequence of events. *'... her vision blurred'*. *5/* This sentence has a powerful ending 'swallowed by the murmur of London's rush'. You don't need 'faint'. It weakens the '... moan escaped her lips' and doesn't really modify 'moan' in any meaningful way. *6/* I'd personally use 'As' instead of 'when' simply because it creates the idea we've been expecting her to collapse. *7/ *Another one of those words: 'going' In this case it's not just a simple matter of removing it. You still want the idea it's slowly happening. So you can use something like 'turning'. *'The world was turning black and her thoughts fading.'* You don't need the word 'were'.


----------



## CatOfNoir

Okay here is the first two paragraph of the story I posted in the Fiction showcase. I'm looking for advice on how I could improve it. I looking for opinions on how I can improve it please!

Making my way through the forest, I reached the clearing and was beguiled by the golden glow that stretched across the horizon in a magnificent sheen of brilliance.  The maelstrom of pain and negativity I felt, after the constant bullying at school, receded beneath the surface of my soul. The sight of the golden sky was almost as beautiful as my destination in the middle of the meadow. But the positive feelings faded to nothing when I heard the sound of children’s laughter. Several kids, that couldn’t have been older than ten, were frolicking under the canopy of the grandiose tree.

I turned back toward the forest and was met face to face with a little boy whose eyes mirrored the sky. He didn’t say anything. Just reached out his small palm, inviting me to join the others. I don’t know why but I took it. As I rested against the trunk, under the huge tree that stood like a sentry, all of the kids doused my injuries with leaves gathered from the branches, the sap alleviated the pain of my wounds. Welcomed by open arms, we played through the evening late into the night with only the fireflies to guide us. I didn’t leave until the afternoon the next day.
My parents were likely worried, or maybe they were relieved that their outcast of a son was missing, either way heading home would have to wait. Standing across the street from the school, I waited until Tom and his gang of cronies walked out the front entrance.
He laughed when he saw the state of my clothing, but that quickly turned into a scowl when I flipped him off. I took off in a mad sprint, luring them through the forest and meadow until I was under the shade of the tree.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

CatOfNoir said:


> Okay here is the first two paragraph of the story I posted in the Fiction showcase. I'm looking for advice on how I could improve it. I looking for opinions on how I can improve it please!
> 
> *1/* Making my way through the forest, I reached the clearing and was beguiled by the golden glow that stretched across the horizon in a magnificent sheen of brilliance. *2/* The maelstrom of pain and negativity I felt, after the constant bullying at school, receded beneath the surface of my soul. *3/* The sight of the golden sky was almost as beautiful as my destination in the middle of the meadow. But the positive feelings faded to nothing when I heard the sound of children’s laughter. *4/* Several kids, that couldn’t have been older than ten, were frolicking under the canopy of the grandiose tree.



First of all, keep doing what you're doing. You're stretching things a little too much but in doing it you're thoroughly enjoying the process. I can see that clearly. *1/* If the image is strong, you don't need to 'tell' the reader it's 'magnificent'. This sentence is strong enough to stand on its own two feet. Remove 'magnificent'. Having said that, think about 'golden glow' and then 'sheen of brilliance'. Do you need both? I'd amalgamate those two things: *'Making my way through the forest, I reached the clearing and was beguiled by a golden sheen of brilliance that stretched across the horizon.' *And ask yourself whether you need 'of brilliance' Does 'a golden sheen' express it anyway? *2/* There's nothing inherently wrong with this sentence. I'd just point out that 'maelstrom' is a little strong here and front loads the sentence. The sentence has a lovely plaintive ending. I'd focus in on that ending by lessening the strength of the beginning of the sentence. Remove 'maelstrom' and it balances it nicely. There's more to be said about these two opening sentences but I'll save that for now. Just be careful not to over-egg everything, leaving you no wiggle room for when you really want to impress upon the reader how incredible something is. It can easily become melodramatic. *3/* I would personal change my original edit to 'golden sky' in the previous sentence, then you wouldn't have to allude to it again here. *'The sight was almost as beautiful as my destination in the middle of the meadow.'* Because you've said it's beautiful and it's to do with escaping, I'd want to change that rather generic 'middle' to 'heart'. *4/* This is what I mean by easing up a little. You've reached immediately for 'frolicking', which isn't too bad but also added 'grandiose tree'. It's just a little too much. Think of it more intimately. Everything is BIG and BOLD.* 'On a magnificent throne, sat a resplendent king, surrounded by his mightiest warriors'*. Do you see what I mean? Ease up. 



CatOfNoir said:


> *1/* I turned back toward the forest and was met *came* face to face with a little boy whose eyes mirrored the sky. He didn’t say anything *[comma]* just reached out his small palm, inviting me to join the others. *2/* I don’t know why but I took it. *3/* As I rested against the trunk, under the huge tree that stood like a sentry, all of the kids doused my injuries with leaves gathered from the branches, the sap alleviated the pain of my wounds. Welcomed by open arms, we played through the evening late into the night with only the fireflies to guide us. I didn’t leave until the afternoon the next day



*1/* If you can lose a 'was' lose it. Nice sentence ending, and it shows you're thinking of it as a whole and not just a separate sentence. Good stuff. *2/* Nothing wrong in particular but consider the start of a sentence and the end. 'it' is a little weak. I'm just pointing this out while I'm at it but you can easily change that to *'I took it but didn't know why'*. As I said though, I'm only taking this opportunity to point something like this out. At the end of the day, I'd likely stick with the original. The original version has a nice flow through of movement, while my example halts that flow slightly. Always end on a strong word if you can. *3/* You're asking too much of this sentence, making 'stood like a sentry' look awkward and out of place. I'd think about taking this idea and adjusting the 'grandiose tree' sentence with it. What kind of tree is it by the way? Be specific. Going back to your original sentence in paragraph 1: *'Several kids, no older than ten, were playing under the canopy of the grand oak tree, standing sentry over the clearing.' *Not brilliant but you get what I mean. What injuries are you speaking of? This is the first time you've mentioned he's injured. I'm assuming then that the 'maelstrom of pain' was meant to convey actual bodily injuries. I'd be more direct there. 'Doused' is the wrong word to associate with 'leaves' but not the 'sap'. It's still too much though, even if you do sort that out. 'Salved' would be more in line with the idea. This is another case of a sentence with two halves that should be amalgamated and simplified: *'As I rested against the trunk of the oak tree, the kids salved my injuries with the sap from the leaves they'd gathered.' '*salved' replaces 'alleviated the pain of my wounds' Again, not perfect but I'm trying to work within the confines of the way you've written the sentence. I'd write it completely different but that would be of no help to you. 



CatOfNoir said:


> My parents were likely worried, or maybe they were relieved that their outcast of a son was missing *[full stop]* *E*ither way heading home would have to wait. Standing across the street from the school, I waited until Tom and his gang of cronies walked out the front entrance.
> He laughed when he saw the state of my clothing, but that quickly turned into a scowl when I flipped him off. I took off in a mad sprint, luring them through the forest and meadow until I was under the shade of the tree.


You've got something going on here, man. It just needs tidying up and downplaying a little. Don't think in grand terms all the time. Think in intimate terms.


----------



## CatOfNoir

Oh wow this critique is wonderful. Thank you so much for the feedback. I'll try addressing it in bulletpoints.

1. I totally get what you're saying in terms of that sentence. It comes off very purple-prose like. I guess the reason I wrote it that way is because I'm in the process of trying to find a writing voice. In previous works of mine, a lot of them felt bland and like I was reading an instruction manual. I'll definitely try to find a balance between with my descriptions. 

2.  I have a bad habit of weasel words sneaking into my writing. Now that you mention it maelstrom does feel kind of out of place with the situation as it's being presented. 

3. Ah, so basically switching the placement of the sentences? Golden sky does feel a little jarring on the 3rd line. Heart was definitely the word I was looking for it just didn't come to mind.

4. Yeah, the fourth line is definitely heavily loaded.

Second paragraph

1. I really gotta work on those darn weasel words :/.

2.  I do think my line here is a bit basic overall. I didn't really like it and couldn't think of any interesting adjectives or verbs to make it pop. But it does feel weird amongst the rest of the story.

3. I really like how you combined the ideas from the sentence in the first paragraph with this one. It's vivid and reads smoothly!
That's the level I want to reach with my writing overall. So the protagonist was bullied before he ended up finding the meadow. I actually had a whole scene in the original story that I had to cut because I posted this to a subreddit that has a 500 word count limit. Yeah doused sorta implies that the leaves were so wet they drenched the wounds but its awkward, salved is a lot cleaner. I do think the sentence doesn't read the best which is a prominent problem in my stories.  I often have problems structuring sentences of having them flow nicely.

Thank you so much for the advice. I'll go back and revise my story in a little bit


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

CatOfNoir said:


> Oh wow this critique is wonderful. Thank you so much for the feedback. I'll try addressing it in bulletpoints.
> 
> 1. I totally get what you're saying in terms of that sentence. It comes off very purple-prose like. I guess the reason I wrote it that way is because I'm in the process of trying to find a writing voice. In previous works of mine, a lot of them felt bland and like I was reading an instruction manual. I'll definitely try to find a balance between with my descriptions.
> 
> 2.  I have a bad habit of weasel words sneaking into my writing. Now that you mention it maelstrom does feel kind of out of place with the situation as it's being presented.
> 
> 3. Ah, so basically switching the placement of the sentences? Golden sky does feel a little jarring on the 3rd line. Heart was definitely the word I was looking for it just didn't come to mind.
> 
> 4. Yeah, the fourth line is definitely heavily loaded.
> 
> Second paragraph
> 
> 1. I really gotta work on those darn weasel words :/.
> 
> 2.  I do think my line here is a bit basic overall. I didn't really like it and couldn't think of any interesting adjectives or verbs to make it pop. But it does feel weird amongst the rest of the story.



There's nothing wrong with a short and snappy sentence now and then. You want to be varying your sentence lengths anyway just to make sure you don't inadvertently introduce an annoying rhythm. I used that sentence as an example. There's nothing wrong with it. 



CatOfNoir said:


> 3. I really like how you combined the ideas from the sentence in the first paragraph with this one. It's vivid and reads smoothly!
> That's the level I want to reach with my writing overall. So the protagonist was bullied before he ended up finding the meadow. I actually had a whole scene in the original story that I had to cut because I posted this to a subreddit that has a 500 word count limit. Yeah doused sorta implies that the leaves were so wet they drenched the wounds but its awkward, salved is a lot cleaner. I do think the sentence doesn't read the best which is a prominent problem in my stories.  I often have problems structuring sentences of having them flow nicely.
> 
> Thank you so much for the advice. I'll go back and revise my story in a little bit


----------



## KeganThompson

How is this for an opening line(s)?

Ami got into occult stuff shortly after her sister died. Today we were trying the ouija board.

I was thinking this or something like it for an opening...thoughts?


----------



## Taylor

KeganThompson said:


> How is this for an opening line(s)?
> 
> Ami got into occult stuff shortly after her sister died. Today we were trying the ouija board.
> 
> I was thinking this or something like it for an opening...thoughts?


It's intriguing and very much in your voice.  I like it!


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> How is this for an opening line(s)?
> 
> Ami got into occult stuff shortly after her sister died. Today we were trying the ouija board.
> 
> I was thinking this or something like it for an opening...thoughts?


Yeah, nice progression of ideas. It's like a mini story.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> Yeah, nice progression of ideas. It's like a mini story.


It's like a "reincarnation"
 my story didn't feel whole so I borrowed from other ideas I had. I've pressed the restart button several times. Maybe I can get it to work for once


----------



## Ajoy

KeganThompson said:


> How is this for an opening line(s)?
> 
> Ami got into occult stuff shortly after her sister died. Today we were trying the ouija board.
> 
> I was thinking this or something like it for an opening...thoughts?


I think it's interesting. I'm curious about changing between third person and first person between those line...will that be a one time thing?


----------



## KeganThompson

Ajoy said:


> I think it's interesting. I'm curious about changing between third person and first person between those line...will that be a one time thing?


Its all in 1rst person. He is referencing his friend, Ami is not the MC


----------



## Ajoy

KeganThompson said:


> Its all in 1rst person. He is referencing his friend, Ami is not the MC


haha... gotcha... I think I've been looking at the screen too long.


----------



## CatOfNoir

So I was debating if I wanted to post snippets of a different story, but I figured I'd post the rest of the Tree Of Death story here for help on improvement. I hope the snippet isn't too long. I'm not sure if I'm only allowed post two paragraphs or not.

***

“You’re really gonna get it!” He panted out, not realizing that the twisted, looming branches that hung above the group were encroaching upon them like gnarled hands. Amy was the first to scream and to die, as one of the branches slammed into her eye, skewering her brain, leaving blood to drip down the wood. The others followed a similar fate.

Tom was the last person alive. Weighed down by the branches, he fought tooth and nail as I retrieved the rope from my backpack. I tied the rope to one of the sturdy branches and formed the noose, slipping it around Tom’s neck. He tried fighting, but I guess being stabbed several time from jagged twigs was enough to turn him into a sniveling baby. He flailed as the branch elevated and the rope bit into his neck.
Life got better after that. I was questioned by my parents and the police regarding Tom and his friend’s whereabouts, but that was a small price to pay for a happier life where I was always welcomed with open arms by my new friends. And now there are more of them, with familiar but much kinder faces


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

CatOfNoir said:


> So I was debating if I wanted to post snippets of a different story, but I figured I'd post the rest of the Tree Of Death story here for help on improvement. I hope the snippet isn't too long. I'm not sure if I'm only allowed post two paragraphs or not.
> 
> ***
> 
> *1/ *“You’re really gonna get it!” He panted out, not realizing that the twisted, looming branches that hung above the group were encroaching upon them like gnarled hands. *2/* Amy was the first to scream and to die*[full stop]* *3/* One of the branches slammed into her eye, skewering her brain, leaving blood to drip down the wood. *4/* The others followed a similar fate.



*1/* Two things here, and one is a throwback to what I said in your other piece. Firstly, 'he panted out' stands out awkwardly. Try panting and saying 'You're really gonna get it!' with an exclamation mark to boot. That suggests a much louder voice. Either go with convention and write 'he said forcefully' or break that convention and go with 'he shouted'. In either case, the exclamation mark can go. The second point: 'twisted, looming branches' and 'like gnarled hands'. You need to pick one and not reiterate, or amalgamate the two in some way.* '... not realising the branches hanging above the group were encroaching upon them like twisted, gnarled fingers'. *I'd use fingers because you get that separation which mirrors branches better. *2/* By continuing this sentence, you lose the impact of the word 'die'. *'Amy was the first to scream and die'* is a much more impactful sentence. You don't need the second 'to'. *3/* Do you need to mention is skewered her brain? If it slammed into her eye, where else would it go. Again, this is one of those sentences in which you've taken a single idea and cut it into two. I'd keep my eye out for that. *'A branch skewered her eye. Blood dripped down from the wood'. *I'll reiterate again though that I'm altering your sentences as you've written them. In this case I'd personally want to hold the camera a little longer. Firstly I'd say 'wound' not 'wood' and secondly I'd want to describe the blood flowing down her cheek and perhaps even dripping onto whatever you decided she was wearing. *4/* Were they all skewered through the eye? Give me a nice, succinct and visceral summary of what went down. 



CatOfNoir said:


> *1/* Tom was the last person alive. Weighed down by the branches, he fought tooth and nail as I retrieved the rope from my backpack. I tied the rope to one of the sturdy branches and formed *a* noose, slipping it around Tom’s neck. *2/* He tried fighting, but I guess being stabbed several time from jagged twigs was enough to turn him into a sniveling baby.* 3/* He flailed as the branch elevated and the rope bit into his neck.



*1/* Tom can't be the last person alive, you're there. *2/* 'He tried fighting' is weak and flimsy when you consider what is going on. Something like 'He fought like hell' would be far more energetic an in keeping with your voice. If you concentrate on getting rid of the 'wases' and losing some of the 'ings', you'd sharpen your style up substantially. I'd make that your priority for now. Cut as many of them as you can. It'll force you to rethink the sentence structure. 'jagged twigs'. Sometimes, in an effort to find alternatives, we end up picking the wrong word. Branches and twigs are two completely different things. I'd accept 'snivelling baby' because it gives us a window into the protag's head and how he thinks. In which case, I'd want that to be the focus. *'He fought like hell, but I guess being stabbed was enough to turn anyone into a snivelling baby'.* I've changed 'him' to 'anyone' because it's more impersonal. *3/* 'elevated' doesn't cut it here. It's a summary of what could be a more interesting image:* 'He flailed as the branch hauled him up and the rope bit into his neck.' *



CatOfNoir said:


> Life got better after that. I was questioned by my parents and the police regarding Tom and his friend’s whereabouts, but that was a small price to pay for a happier life where I was always welcomed with open arms by my new friends. And now there are more of them, with familiar but much kinder faces



It's a little quick from the other short snippet to this. I'd want some breathing room and at least some indication something wasn't quite right with the large oak tree. Nothing in your face. Just a subtle hint in one or two of the descriptions would do. Or an indication the protag wasn't entirely of sound mind or had good intentions. Only with a story that moves this quickly though. In a longer piece, you'd have scenes that showed that. 

This thread is meant to be entirely about 'craft'. It doesn't really matter where your snippet comes from. It's all about improving your writing and isn't about improving the story. That's what differentiates this from the Writing Workshop area.


----------



## CatOfNoir

TheMightyAz said:


> *1/* Two things here, and one is a throwback to what I said in your other piece. Firstly, 'he panted out' stands out awkwardly. Try panting and saying 'You're really gonna get it!' with an exclamation mark to boot. That suggests a much louder voice. Either go with convention and write 'he said forcefully' or break that convention and go with 'he shouted'. In either case, the exclamation mark can go. The second point: 'twisted, looming branches' and 'like gnarled hands'. You need to pick one and not reiterate, or amalgamate the two in some way.* '... not realising the branches hanging above the group were encroaching upon them like twisted, gnarled fingers'. *I'd use fingers because you get that separation which mirrors branches better. *2/* By continuing this sentence, you lose the impact of the word 'die'. *'Amy was the first to scream and die'* is a much more impactful sentence. You don't need the second 'to'. *3/* Do you need to mention is skewered her brain? If it slammed into her eye, where else would it go. Again, this is one of those sentences in which you've taken a single idea and cut it into two. I'd keep my eye out for that. *'A branch skewered her eye. Blood dripped down from the wood'. *I'll reiterate again though that I'm altering your sentences as you've written them. In this case I'd personally want to hold the camera a little longer. Firstly I'd say 'wound' not 'wood' and secondly I'd want to describe the blood flowing down her cheek and perhaps even dripping onto whatever you decided she was wearing. *4/* Were they all skewered through the eye? Give me a nice, succinct and visceral summary of what went down.
> 
> 
> 
> *1/* Tom can't be the last person alive, you're there. *2/* 'He tried fighting' is weak and flimsy when you consider what is going on. Something like 'He fought like hell' would be far more energetic an in keeping with your voice. If you concentrate on getting rid of the 'wases' and losing some of the 'ings', you'd sharpen your style up substantially. I'd make that your priority for now. Cut as many of them as you can. It'll force you to rethink the sentence structure. 'jagged twigs'. Sometimes, in an effort to find alternatives, we end up picking the wrong word. Branches and twigs are two completely different things. I'd accept 'snivelling baby' because it gives us a window into the protag's head and how he thinks. In which case, I'd want that to be the focus. *'He fought like hell, but I guess being stabbed was enough to turn anyone into a snivelling baby'.* I've changed 'him' to 'anyone' because it's more impersonal. *3/* 'elevated' doesn't cut it here. It's a summary of what could be a more interesting image:* 'He flailed as the branch hauled him up and the rope bit into his neck.' *
> 
> 
> 
> It's a little quick from the other short snippet to this. I'd want some breathing room and at least some indication something wasn't quite right with the large oak tree. Nothing in your face. Just a subtle hint in one or two of the descriptions would do. Or an indication the protag wasn't entirely of sound mind or had good intentions. Only with a story that moves this quickly though. In a longer piece, you'd have scenes that showed that.
> 
> This thread is meant to be entirely about 'craft'. It doesn't really matter where your snippet comes from. It's all about improving your writing and isn't about improving the story. That's what differentiates this from the Writing Workshop area.



Thank you so much your critiques are really a godsend lol. I see I have a really bad problem with extra "wases", "thats" and "tos". Not to mention adverbs, which I'm guess bogs down the flow of my writing. The reason this part seems rushed is because of the 500 word count. I'm sure it could be written in a way where it feels complete in the 500 word count, but I'm unfortunately not at the level where I can do so at the moment. But I could definitely cut some details that are common sense like her brain being skewered. I wanted to make it seem more brutal, but I could have mentioned something like how brain matter clung to the branch as it retracted or something instead. Thank you so much for the critique


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

CatOfNoir said:


> Thank you so much your critiques are really a godsend lol. I see I have a really bad problem with extra "wases", "thats" and "tos". Not to mention adverbs, which I'm guess bogs down the flow of my writing. The reason this part seems rushed is because of the 500 word count. I'm sure it could be written in a way where it feels complete in the 500 word count, but I'm unfortunately not at the level where I can do so at the moment. But I could definitely cut some details that are common sense like her brain being skewered. I wanted to make it seem more brutal, but I could have mentioned something like how brain matter clung to the branch as it retracted or something instead. Thank you so much for the critique


Keep them coming. I would make certain things your priority and not consider the bigger picture just yet. Concentrate on changing that habit of reiterating and cutting down on 'was' and 'ing' for now, especially in action scenes. It's not that you'll eventually lose them entirely, it's that eventually you'll learn when best to use them. Like I said, forcing yourself to write without them will lead to you having to find different ways of constructing the sentences, and that will strengthen your writing.


----------



## KeganThompson

Okay so.... I do not have a section or a piece to get 'sliced up' atm but I am currently working on a list of things that I want to focus on and improve on. (my punctuation is trash but, I'd like to focus on my major issues first)

So far:
*copulas 
*Be more describe/ focus on describing the right things
*Be more direct
*Keep paragraphs confined to one idea

Advice/ things to add to my list?


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Okay so.... I do not have a section or a piece to get 'sliced up' atm but I am currently working on a list of things that I want to focus on and improve on. (my punctuation is trash but, I'd like to focus on my major issues first)
> 
> So far:
> *copulas
> *Be more describe/ focus on describing the right things
> *Be more direct
> *Keep paragraphs confined to one idea (unless it's a quick sequence such as 'he ran through the door, hurdled the fence and leapt at the thief' But in general YEAH.
> 
> Advice/ things to add to my list?


I wouldn't add to the list. You'll overburden yourself. Deal with one at a time.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> I wouldn't add to the list. You'll overburden yourself. Deal with one at a time.


They were things I wanted to keep in mind while drafting. Of course Im not gonna go over it fully until revision. 
I plan to write a short story but set up in parts. It will be a new challenge but I am looking forward to it


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## LoveofWriting

KeganThompson said:


> They were things I wanted to keep in mind while drafting. Of course Im not gonna go over it fully until revision.
> I plan to write a short story but set up in parts. It will be a new challenge but I am looking forward to it



What's your short story going to be about? Do you have an idea yet?


----------



## KeganThompson

LoveofWriting said:


> What's your short story going to be about? Do you have an idea yet?


I'm still working on the over all time line. I have the first part scenes planned out and general ideas for the remaining parts. I was going to plot as I go, I usually pants/ diverge from my original plans but the setting and scenes should stay fairly consistent to what I written out. So far I have it laid out to be 3 parts but I might make it 4 depending. Might be divided into "weeks" not sure yet. 

I've never done a synopsis so bare with me. This will be in first person.
Ash's (MC) friend Ami wants to play the Ouija board in his room. She is trying to contact her sister that died almost a year ago, 4 weeks from the one year anniversary. (If I set it up by weeks it will be a count down to the anniversary date.) A few days later, at a friends party, Ash finds her distraught in a room. She confessed she saw her sister (at her house, where she died). Ash thought it was her emotions and alcohol talking but then notices a presence he cant seem to shake and things go down hill from there.

Currently that is the general idea


----------



## CatOfNoir

Okay... here is something else that can be critiqued hopefully. 

***

Hello everyone. It’s me, your favorite aspiring witch Amelia Caldwell. That’s right - the girl with an ever-growing curiosity that is only surpassed by her diligence to the craft of spells and rituals. What I enjoy most about the practice of witchcraft is helping out all the troubled individuals with the concoctions I brew up after sneaking notes from my mother’s potion recipe book.



It all started with my neighbors Samantha and James next door. They were having troubles in their marriage, James was getting a case of wandering eyes. So late one night, I brewed a love potion in the kitchen. A bit of spring water, some honey and herbs such as sage, a lick of cowbane, and a few petals of hydrangea which weren’t in the recipe but I felt like throwing in for extra flare, and voila. The sludgy-green mixture was finished!



Bottling it up I presented it to Samantha the next morning, telling her to give it to her husband at dinner that night. She was initially skeptical, but the results were glorious. Apparently her husband passed out, which was kind of odd the love potion wasn’t supposed to have that effect, but once he awoke he was right as rain – minus the really pale skin and rigor mortis that set in for a little bit.



He lavished her with affection and the next day after work he brought her home metallic tasting heart shaped chocolates. James loved them and Samantha appreciated the sentiment. It wasn’t long until he ended up turning her into chocolate himself. Ahhh! Love can be so dreamy!



The next client I helped was a weasely kid named Jake. He was trying to bulk up to try out for the football team at his highschool. With my help, he was able to put on more than enough muscle. The event even made it in the news! “Dangerous Bull on two legs slaughters everyone in the field outside of Jefferson High!”



I knew he’d knock the socks off of everyone.



Then there was poor little Martha from a pet forum. Her father just didn’t want to get a dog. So we eventually met up after school and I gave her the potion to put in her dad’s morning coffee. You could only imagine the smile on her face when she woke up during the full moon to see her very own BIG doggy at the foot of her bed. Yes, she was a little unnerved when she found her the dog was her dad transforming into a werewolf but it was an ingenious solution!



Come this Halloween I’ll be an official witch once my big plan is brought to fruition! Mom will be so proud of her daughter that she’ll pass down her hat and broomstick. Oh, I can see it now. The moon illuminating the night sky, the wind whipping through my hair as I look down on the town atop Circe. I can’t wait.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

CatOfNoir said:


> Hello everyone. It’s me, your favorite aspiring witch Amelia Caldwell. That’s right - the girl with an ever-growing curiosity that is only surpassed by her diligence to the craft of spells and rituals. *1/* What I enjoy most about the practice of witchcraft is helping out all the troubled individuals with the concoctions I brew up after sneaking notes from my mother’s potion recipe book.



First of all the limit is three paragraphs! lol. I'll go through all of these just this once. * 1/ *How does blowing up concoctions help troubled individuals? This is three sentences. You need to explain what you mean by 'troubled individuals' because it's rather vague. Do you mean other witches not as advanced or do you mean people with other problems? The two halves of the sentence don't sit together snugly. You're expressing three separate things: 1: helping others. 2: Experimenting and blowing things up in the process. 3: Sneaking notes from Mother's note book. If I was to approach this I'd start with 'stealing from mother's notes' then 'Failing several times and blowing stuff up' and then, having mastered some of the spells 'helping others.'



CatOfNoir said:


> It all started with my neighbors Samantha and James next door. They were having troubles in their marriage, *1/ *James was getting a case of wandering eyes. So late one night, I brewed a love potion in the kitchen. *2/* A bit of spring water, some honey and herbs such as sage, a lick of cowbane, and a few petals of hydrangea which weren’t in the recipe but I felt like throwing in for extra flare, and voila. The sludgy-green mixture was finished!



*1/* You need to make the transition between the two halves smoother and connected. Right now it looks like a comma splice but I understand what you tried to achieve there. 'were having' in the previous half is fine but 'was getting' in the second half is jarring. If you can lose a 'were' or a 'was' do it. To bring this together, you could write: *'They were having troubles in their marriage; James getting a case of wandering eye.' *Or to tighten it further:* 'They had marriage problems; James getting a case of wandering eye'.* *2/* Think about the word in relation to water: 'bit'. It's not a very watery word and it misses the opportunity for a nice visual. Something like 'splash' fits both water and the act of a witch concocting a love potion. If you want it more meticulous, along the lines of a alchemist, try 'drop', although 'splash' gives a more interesting visual. There's not point in stating 'herbs such as sage'. We know sage is a herb. 'lick of cowbane' is good! *'A splash of spring water, honey and sage, a lick of cowbane, and a few petals of hydrangea--which wasn't in the recipe but I felt like throwing in for extra flare--and viola!'* I usually don't like exclamation marks but it fits your style here well. I've removed 'some' because it quickens the description, fitting the action created by 'splash' and makes it feel more like a concoction being thrown together. I'd want to play with it more though. I'd like to use the 'of' rhythmically and create a sense of increased flurry by using longer descriptions leading to the monosyllabic word 'sage' and then back out of that crescendo to what you threw in for flare: *'A splash of spring water, lick of cowbane, honey, sage, and a few hydrangea petals--which wasn't in the recipe but I felt like throwing in for extra flare--and viola!' *



CatOfNoir said:


> *1/* Bottling it up I presented it to Samantha the next morning, telling her to give it to her husband at dinner that night. She was initially skeptical, but the results were glorious. Apparently her husband passed out, which was kind of odd*(.) 2/ T*he love potion wasn’t supposed to have that effect, but once he awoke he was right as rain – minus the really pale skin and rigor mortis that set in for a little bit.



*1/ *Think of the movement here. You're bottling it up and then immediately giving it to Samantha ... but the following day. It's too quick and looks awkward. *'I bottled it up ready to present to Samantha. When I gave it to her the following morning, I told her to give it to her husband at dinner that night.' *I'd want to deal with that repeat of 'gave' and 'give' though. It bothers me: *'When I gave it to her the following morning, I told her to mix it into her husband's dinner that night.' 2/ *I think you're just trying to do a little too much with one sentence now and then. This is similar to the sentence in paragraph one in that regard. You throw the 'pale skin' in and 'rigor mortis' in as if an afterthought. I can see what you've tried to do though and I like that. It's just too long and 'rigor mortis' is related to death. I'd lose 'really' and find another word such as 'rigidness' or 'rigidity'. *'Minus the pale skin and rigidity that set in for a little while'. *



CatOfNoir said:


> He lavished her with affection and the next day after work he brought her home metallic tasting heart shaped chocolates. James loved them and Samantha appreciated the sentiment. It wasn’t long until he ended up turning her into chocolate himself. Ahhh! Love can be so dreamy!



This paragraph confuses me. Is there a reason for the chocolates tasting metallic? Why does James love the chocolates when they were for Samantha? What do you mean by changing her into chocolate, and what do you mean by 'himself'? It's almost suggesting she's changed into chocolate before but now he's actually got a hand in it too. 



CatOfNoir said:


> The next client I helped was a weasely kid named Jake. He was trying to bulk up to try out for the football team at his high-school. With my help, he was able to put on more than enough muscle. The event even made it in the news! “Dangerous Bull on two legs slaughters everyone in the field outside of Jefferson High!”
> 
> I knew he’d knock the socks off of everyone.
> 
> Then there was poor little Martha from a pet forum. Her father just didn’t want to get a dog. So we eventually met up after school and I gave her the potion to put in her dad’s morning coffee. You could only imagine the smile on her face when she woke up during the full moon to see her very own BIG doggy at the foot of her bed. Yes, she was a little unnerved when she found her *out* the dog was her dad transforming into a werewolf but it was an ingenious solution!



Personally, I'd make this the opening story and fill it out more. It's infinitely more interesting than a love potion. The problem here is, you're moving so far away from story telling, there's very little I can offer. You're telling it as if 'in passing'. This one paragraph should be the whole story. Put me there. Let's see what's happening before, during and after the transformation. How does the father cope with it himself? How do the neighbours react? Does he have to shave more often? Does the son take him for walks? Does he habitually bark when the postman comes, even when he's not transformed? There's fun to be had here? She's made this mess so perhaps she needs to undo it too. Maybe the neighbourhood is filling up with her mistakes and the village is starting to look a little odd. 



CatOfNoir said:


> Come this Halloween I’ll be an official witch once my big plan is brought to fruition! Mom will be so proud of her daughter that she’ll pass down her hat and broomstick. Oh, I can see it now. The moon illuminating the night sky, the wind whipping through my hair as I look down on the town atop Circe. I can’t wait.


You need to fill the story out more and put us there. I sensed you rushed the more you got closer to the end.


----------



## alpacinoutd

Could you please take a look at this?

-----------


Sara grabbed her jacket and stepped out into the damp evening. The odor of gasoline from the cars mingled with the aroma of wet leaves, filling the air with a strange smell. She liked the smell of the city in the fall. Her car was spattered with raindrops. She slid in and wound her way through the streets packed with cars. The asphalt was coated with rain and the reflection of taillights melted and flowed on the ground. A horn blared as she slowed the car, looking for a parking spot. The smell of freshly-baked cake poured into her car as she finally found a parking spot near the confectionery store. She bought a cake and drove towards Kevin's house. In the two years since their friendship began, Sara would always find him in his dreary apartment, watching old movies. She felt a strange sense of pity for him tinged with maternal feelings.

She rang the bell and he let her in. He looked quizzically at the box in her hand. "What's this, Sara?", he asked.

"It's your birthday cake, idiot. What else?"

He tilted his head. "Why would you get me a cake?"

"Because you matter to me," she answered.

He rolled his eyes. "What does that even mean? I don't matter. Look at this mean, heartless city. Millions of people and millions of birthdays." Kevin put his hand on his chest, imitating a dramatic play actor. "I'm just a drop in a big ocean. I really don't matter," he said with a smile on his face.

She stared him blankly, but a part of her liked how he made fun of everything. She enjoyed his strange sense of humor. She raised her hand. "You matter to me. You are my drop in the ocean," she said in a dramatic play tone. "Now enough with this. Let's celebrate."

She dimmed the living room lights, put candles on the cake and lit them. In his face, she could see how indifferent he was. He stared inscrutably at the cake, faking a smile.

"You know something, Kevin? Life is enjoying these simple moments."

"Don't lecture me on my birthday please," he said.

Ignoring him, she continued. "You should've been celebrating your birthday with lots of friends right now. Not just one."

His fake smile faded. He remained silent.

She went on. "Why are you unable to connect with people, Kev?"

He sighed. "The simple answer is that I'm a weird asshole."

"Even weird assholes need and deserve friends," she said.

The rain had picked up, slamming against the window of his apartment. He stared morosely at the cake.

She sat closer to him, putting her hand on his shoulder. "I'm the only one who stands between you and a very lonely, very empty existence. Fight your solitary instincts to keep me in your life." She got up and walked to kitchen, pouring wine in two glasses. "Or else, stay in emptiness for the rest of your life," she said.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Please remember this thread is for 'craft help'. I set a limit of three paragraphs for that reason. If it's a large slice of the story, then you're better off posting it in the Writing Workshop section.

I'll go through the two recent posts which are beginning to get too long, but I have to avoid any others otherwise this thread will become just alternative to the Writing Workshop section.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> *1/ *Sara grabbed her jacket and stepped out into the damp evening. *2/* The odor of gasoline from the cars mingled with the aroma of wet leaves, filling the air with a strange smell. She liked the smell of the city in the fall. *3/* Her car was spattered with raindrops. *4/* She slid in and wound her way through the streets packed with cars. *5/* The asphalt was coated with rain and the reflection of taillights melted and flowed on the ground. A horn blared as she slowed the car, looking for a parking spot. The smell of freshly-baked cake poured into her car as she finally found a parking spot near the confectionery store. *6/* She bought a cake and drove towards Kevin's house. In the two years since their friendship began, Sara would always find him in his dreary apartment, watching old movies. She felt a strange sense of pity for him tinged with maternal feelings.



*1/ *There's nothing technically or stylistically wrong with this sentence. Just consider it for a moment. We get the inference she's put the jacket on but it could also easily mean she stepped outside without putting it on. In that regard 'grabbed' is a weak verb in the context of this sentence. *'Sara threw on her jacket and stepped out into the damp evening'*. It's a snappy sentence so it does in fact suggest it took place quickly, making 'threw on' fit perfectly. *2/* This is an awkward sounding sentence. You don't need to say it was a strange smell. You've described the smell and it's up to the reader whether they'd find it strange or not. It could also do with a little more movement and sense of scale/business: *'the smell of gasoline from busy traffic mingled with the aroma of wet leaves.'* I think using 'odour' and 'aroma' so close together is too much. It looks like a thesaurus moment even though neither word could be considered complicated or unknown. *3/* This makes it sound like her car HAD been splattered with rain but now it's not. To put that right, using your wording, you'd write *'Her car was being spattered with raindrops'*. But that's not a great sentence. The 'was' is what's throwing it out. It's passive. Make it active:* 'Rain spattered her car.' *I question whether it's needed though. It's raining so of course it's getting spattered. It would be better to mention something else in relation to the rain like windscreen wipers. *4/* This is too quick. She gets in and she's already driving through the traffic. This is the sort of thing I struggle to rectify without rewriting it entirely and adding my own content. I mentioned window wipers and here is where I'd put it. I'd make it quite a long description in order to create a sense of passing time and then start a new sentence talking about her pushing through busy traffic. *5/* There's that 'was' again, ruining a sentence. Next time you go to use 'was' consider how you can change the sentence to avoid using it, and so make it an active sentence: *'Rain coated the asphalt and reflections of taillights melted and flowed on the ground.' 6/ *Did she go through all that trouble just to buy a cake? You've put 'towards Kevin's house' which makes it feel like a secondary destination and not necessarily where she'll actually end up.* 'She bought a cake and continued on to Kevin's house.' *That clarifies the picture, but again this is a little too short. What has happened during this short journey to Kevin's house that adds to the story/plot or tells us something about her character? Why does she like the smell of rain and leaves? Does it put her in mind of something? What did she say to the shopkeeper that could express a characteristic? Perhaps mention she's picking up a birthday cake. Then the reader can feel oh so clever putting two and two together and working out it's Kevin's birthday ... but it all needs to be expanded in a meaningful way. 



alpacinoutd said:


> She rang the bell and he let her in. He looked quizzically at the box in her hand. "What's this, Sara?", he asked.



You don't need 'quizzically'. He asks 'what's this, Sara?' Again there's that sense of things happening too quickly. It's almost as if he was stood by the door waiting for her to ring the bell. 



alpacinoutd said:


> "It's your birthday cake, idiot. What else?"
> 
> He tilted his head. "Why would you get me a cake?"
> 
> "Because you matter to me," she answered.
> 
> *He rolled his eyes. "What does that even mean? I don't matter. Look at this mean, heartless city. Millions of people and millions of birthdays." Kevin put his hand on his chest, imitating a dramatic play actor. "I'm just a drop in a big ocean. I really don't matter," he said with a smile on his face.*



Ok, so there's something here you could play with in the opening scenes. You could mirror his feelings in Sara as she drives to his house. She finds the beauty in bad whether whilst he sees only a metaphor for a heartless, cold city. He sees himself as only one of millions who receives a birthday cake. You could touch upon that with the conversation with the shopkeeper, making sure not to say anything too direct but hinting at a feeling she has that he doesn't. The windscreen wipers come immediately to mind in emphasising this difference. She'd see through a clear window because of them, he'd see only the monotony of their movement. But again, if you do do that, you need to make it indirect/subtle and not blatantly obvious. What matters is that it flavours what you write and how you write it. If only you and a handful of smart readers spot it, so be it. 



alpacinoutd said:


> She stared *at *him blankly, but a part of her liked how he made fun of everything. She enjoyed his strange sense of humor. She raised her hand. "You matter to me. You are my drop in the ocean," she said in a dramatic play tone. "Now enough with this. Let's celebrate."



I'd have to assume from this the previous exchange was supposed to be lighthearted but that's not the way it comes across. He seems cynical and even though he may well have a sense of humour, it appears to lean more towards dark than 'strange'. You might also want try to reduce the 'she' count at the start of the sentences. *'His dark sense of humour pleased her'* for instance. 



alpacinoutd said:


> She dimmed the living room lights, put candles on the cake and lit them. In his face, she could see how indifferent he was. He stared inscrutably at the cake, faking a smile.



Again, too quick. There's interesting stuff to explore here. 



alpacinoutd said:


> "You know something, Kevin? Life is enjoying these simple moments."
> 
> "Don't lecture me on my birthday please," he said.
> 
> Ignoring him, she continued. "You should've been celebrating your birthday with lots of friends right now. Not just one."
> 
> His fake smile faded. He remained silent.
> 
> She went on. "Why are you unable to connect with people, Kev?"
> 
> He sighed. "The simple answer is that I'm a weird asshole."
> 
> "Even weird assholes need and deserve friends," she said.
> 
> The rain had picked up, slamming against the window of his apartment. He stared morosely at the cake.



There's actually a nice bit of flash fiction here. Just expand on the ideas more and keep us in the scenes longer. 



alpacinoutd said:


> She sat closer to him, putting her hand on his shoulder. "I'm the only one who stands between you and a very lonely, very empty existence. Fight your solitary instincts to keep me in your life." She got up and walked to kitchen, pouring wine in two glasses. "Or else, stay in emptiness for the rest of your life," she said.


Yeah, this is worth expanding on and digging deeper.


----------



## CatOfNoir

TheMightyAz said:


> First of all the limit is three paragraphs! lol. I'll go through all of these just this once. * 1/ *How does blowing up concoctions help troubled individuals? This is three sentences. You need to explain what you mean by 'troubled individuals' because it's rather vague. Do you mean other witches not as advanced or do you mean people with other problems? The two halves of the sentence don't sit together snugly. You're expressing three separate things: 1: helping others. 2: Experimenting and blowing things up in the process. 3: Sneaking notes from Mother's note book. If I was to approach this I'd start with 'stealing from mother's notes' then 'Failing several times and blowing stuff up' and then, having mastered some of the spells 'helping others.'


1. Oh so Amelia is a ditzy girl that thinks she's actually helping everyone else by brewing potions and the like even when events turn out disastrous. I wanted to fit in parts about how her mother forbade her from practicing witchcraft because she always causes calamity when she engages in it, but I was trying to fit everything in the dreaded 500 words limit again .


TheMightyAz said:


> *1/* You need to make the transition between the two halves smoother and connected. Right now it looks like a comma splice but I understand what you tried to achieve there. 'were having' in the previous half is fine but 'was getting' in the second half is jarring. If you can lose a 'were' or a 'was' do it. To bring this together, you could write: *'They were having troubles in their marriage; James getting a case of wandering eye.' *Or to tighten it further:* 'They had marriage problems; James getting a case of wandering eye'.* *2/* Think about the word in relation to water: 'bit'. It's not a very watery word and it misses the opportunity for a nice visual. Something like 'splash' fits both water and the act of a witch concocting a love potion. If you want it more meticulous, along the lines of a alchemist, try 'drop', although 'splash' gives a more interesting visual. There's not point in stating 'herbs such as sage'. We know sage is a herb. 'lick of cowbane' is good! *'A splash of spring water, honey and sage, a lick of cowbane, and a few petals of hydrangea--which wasn't in the recipe but I felt like throwing in for extra flare--and viola!'* I usually don't like exclamation marks but it fits your style here well. I've removed 'some' because it quickens the description, fitting the action created by 'splash' and makes it feel more like a concoction being thrown together. I'd want to play with it more though. I'd like to use the 'of' rhythmically and create a sense of increased flurry by using longer descriptions leading to the monosyllabic word 'sage' and then back out of that crescendo to what you threw in for flare: *'A splash of spring water, lick of cowbane, honey, sage, and a few hydrangea petals--which wasn't in the recipe but I felt like throwing in for extra flare--and viola!' *


1. 1. Ahh, the dread comma splice.  I'll make sure to work on that in the future. 2. A splash of spring water sounds a lot better! Your restructuring of the ingredients sounds more natural. I do want to have the lick of cowbane part near the end with the hydrangea as it ties into the next part.


TheMightyAz said:


> *1/ *Think of the movement here. You're bottling it up and then immediately giving it to Samantha ... but the following day. It's too quick and looks awkward. *'I bottled it up ready to present to Samantha. When I gave it to her the following morning, I told her to give it to her husband at dinner that night.' *I'd want to deal with that repeat of 'gave' and 'give' though. It bothers me: *'When I gave it to her the following morning, I told her to mix it into her husband's dinner that night.' 2/ *I think you're just trying to do a little too much with one sentence now and then. This is similar to the sentence in paragraph one in that regard. You throw the 'pale skin' in and 'rigor mortis' in as if an afterthought. I can see what you've tried to do though and I like that. It's just too long and 'rigor mortis' is related to death. I'd lose 'really' and find another word such as 'rigidness' or 'rigidity'. *'Minus the pale skin and rigidity that set in for a little while'. *





TheMightyAz said:


> This paragraph confuses me. Is there a reason for the chocolates tasting metallic? Why does James love the chocolates when they were for Samantha? What do you mean by changing her into chocolate, and what do you mean by 'himself'? It's almost suggesting she's changed into chocolate before but now he's actually got a hand in it too.


2.  So James actually died shortly after drinking the potion. The cowbane and hydrangea that Amelia added weren't part of the recipe and they're poisonous plants. The love potion ends up reanimating him as a zombie. The chocolates that he bought for Samantha taste metallic because he ripped out the hearts of the women he had been crushing on when he was alive and baked heart shaped chocolates using the blood as part of the ingredients. Sorry I didn't make that clear. James ends up killing and doing the same thing to Samantha to satiate his hunger. 



TheMightyAz said:


> Personally, I'd make this the opening story and fill it out more. It's infinitely more interesting than a love potion. The problem here is, you're moving so far away from story telling, there's very little I can offer. You're telling it as if 'in passing'. This one paragraph should be the whole story. Put me there. Let's see what's happening before, during and after the transformation. How does the father cope with it himself? How do the neighbours react? Does he have to shave more often? Does the son take him for walks? Does he habitually bark when the postman comes, even when he's not transformed? There's fun to be had here? She's made this mess so perhaps she needs to undo it too. Maybe the neighbourhood is filling up with her mistakes and the village is starting to look a little odd.
> 
> 
> You need to fill the story out more and put us there. I sensed you rushed the more you got closer to the end.



I did end up rushing a lot. I was hoping to try and make what I had a bit more impactful so it wouldn't read like a outline of a story. Flash fiction is really tough to nail. I'll work on implementing all the tips you mentioned, thanks.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

CatOfNoir said:


> 1. Oh so Amelia is a ditzy girl that thinks she's actually helping everyone else by brewing potions and the like even when events turn out disastrous. I wanted to fit in parts about how her mother forbade her from practicing witchcraft because she always causes calamity when she engages in it, but I was trying to fit everything in the dreaded 500 words limit again .
> 
> 1. 1. Ahh, the dread comma splice.  I'll make sure to work on that in the future. 2. A splash of spring water sounds a lot better! Your restructuring of the ingredients sounds more natural. I do want to have the lick of cowbane part near the end with the hydrangea as it ties into the next part.
> 
> 
> 2.  So James actually died shortly after drinking the potion. The cowbane and hydrangea that Amelia added weren't part of the recipe and they're poisonous plants. The love potion ends up reanimating him as a zombie. The chocolates that he bought for Samantha taste metallic because he ripped out the hearts of the women he had been crushing on when he was alive and baked heart shaped chocolates using the blood as part of the ingredients. Sorry I didn't make that clear. James ends up killing and doing the same thing to Samantha to satiate his hunger.
> 
> 
> 
> I did end up rushing a lot. I was hoping to try and make what I had a bit more impactful so it wouldn't read like a outline of a story. Flash fiction is really tough to nail. I'll work on implementing all the tips you mentioned, thanks.


Why are you limiting yourself 500 words? Write what you want to write, and in this case what you _need_ to write. Short stories are a completely different beast. I made the mistake of trying to write novellas and turn them into short stories. You're not alone.


----------



## LoveofWriting

Not sure what to call this, I think it just might be prose or an attempt at a haibun. Or somewhere in between. Could someone tell me if I am doing the imagery and punctuation right?

His heart was beating to the beat of a drum in his seaside village, sunlight rays casting its yellow glow over Augustine’s head, when there was a sight of relief at the ceremony for whatever reason. The people were overjoyed to hear Augustine finally listen to the sounds of the percussion and instrumentation. The words of Latin tongue were heard by countless rows of people sitting down and listening to the locations and sounds the speaker was describing. With hours of speaking and setting down the foundation of what is ceremonial, Augustine was enthralled by the slipping of his tongue like it was sheets of ice, he wanted to experiment and experience life with animal eyes after this ceremony was over. He was living the life he wanted, but he wanted more, he wanted to experience a higher power, he wasn’t religious but he found God to be mysterious and cunning like a fox. He sat at the ceremony completely still, as patient as he can be.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

LoveofWriting said:


> Not sure what to call this, I think it just might be prose or an attempt at a haibun. Or somewhere in between. Could someone tell me if I am doing the imagery and punctuation right?
> 
> *1/* His heart was beating to the beat of a drum in his seaside village, *2/* sunlight rays casting its yellow glow over Augustine’s head, when there was a sight of relief at the ceremony for whatever reason. *3/* The people were overjoyed to hear Augustine finally listen to the sounds of the percussion and instrumentation. *4/* The words of Latin tongue were heard by countless rows of people sitting down and listening to the locations and sounds the speaker was describing. *5/* With hours of speaking and setting down the foundation of what is ceremonial, Augustine was enthralled by the slipping of his tongue like it was sheets of ice, *6/ *he wanted to experiment and experience life with animal eyes after this ceremony was over. *7/* He was living the life he wanted, but he wanted more, he wanted to experience a higher power, he wasn’t religious but he found God to be mysterious and cunning like a fox. He sat at the ceremony completely still, as patient as he can be.


Firstly, you need to try and lose most of those 'wases' and 'weres'. They're bogging the paragraph down and forcing in too many 'ings'. The ironic thing about 'ings' is they make actions sound simultaneous, which quickens the image, but if overused, the repetition slows the piece down. "No way," John said, smiling V "No way," John said and smiled. In the first example, John smiles while he's saying "No way," while in the second, he smiles immediately after he's said "No way". It's handy sometimes but can get rhythmically repetitive and draw too much attention to itself. 

*1/* You've mentioned 'haibun' but I'm going to treat this as straightforward prose. I understand the repeat of 'beat' but don't think it brings anything to the table here. 'his seaside village' feels like an afterthought at the end there, and 'his' suggests ownership, and it repeats 'his' unnecessarily. *'His heart pounded to the beat of the drum,' 2/ *'rays' and 'casting' don't fit together well. 'rays' are straight and concentrated, but 'casting' is a more general term and doesn't give the impression of concentrated. 'yellow' feels a little cliched for the sun and 'over Augustine's head' is slightly problematic. Where else would the sun be casting? By being specific there you're giving the impression the sun ONLY cast light above his head. 'for whatever reason' is flimsy and imprecise. I think that 'whatever reason' is related to the village finally getting to see him enjoying drums ... but I'm not sure. I'm going to assume it is and so recommend losing that last part of the sentence. You mention the villagers being happy in the next sentence. This is a tough one because I'd approach this in a completely different way but I'll try and work within your framing of it:* 'Augustine's heart pounded along with the beat of the drum and the sun cast it's brilliance over the seaside village.' *'cast' is nice because it's a seaside village. It put me in mind of a trawler's net.  I'd probably want to play with that idea, especially if this was a haibun. I'm not happy with that 'and' though. It'll do but if I were to inject my own style there I'd write something like *'Augustine's heart pounded along with the beat of the drum, and the sun radiated it's own enthusiasm over the seaside village'. *That's not what I'd finally plump for but I'd certainly work with the idea.  *3/* How do the people 'hear' Augustine's enjoyment of the beat? If he's not singing, then they can only 'see' his enjoyment. You don't need 'percussion' because you've mentioned 'drum' and 'instrumentation' feels too clinical:* 'The villagers were overjoyed to finally see Augustine's appreciation of the composition.'* I've used 'composition' there simply because I'm assuming the drums are of great importance. That's a general term that doesn't take away from the focus of the drums. If I'd used 'music', that would have put emphasis on the melody. *4/* This is a complicated one. Firstly you've used 'Latin tongue' which could easily be summed up as 'Latin'. You've got 'heard' and 'listening' for the villagers, which is a repeat. I'm not sure what 'listening to the locations and sounds the speaker was describing' means. Are they simply enthralled by his words, even though they didn't understand Latin? Or were they enthralled by the words he was speaking? The use of 'location' and 'sound' throws me out there. I'm going to have to take a guess but it may not be what you intended:* 'A speaker spoke along in Latin, the countless rows of seated listeners entranced by the diction and gravitas.' *

*5/ *So, was it the drums and music that Augustine was listening to and the villagers were happy for, or was it the speech? What you've got to think of here is the reader. I go through these pieces without reading through them first. I do that to see if the reader may get lost. It's often frustrating for me because then some of my earlier alterations don't always make sense within the fuller context. But I leave it because I'm essentially the reader here. This sentence gives me a better idea of what's just gone before but it's too late because an image/idea has already built in the readers head. Information like this needs to be established earlier. It's crucial to fully contextualise events. I'm not going to edit my earlier changes because, whilst I would now add in other detail, the structural critiques still stand by themselves. I'm still not entirely sure whether this is figurative or literal though. Is he literally going to see through animal eyes? Or is that poetic licence? 

At this point I DID read forward and saw you used '... God to be mysterious and cunning like a fox' so I'm not certain whether it's literal or figurative. Because you've said you're not sure whether it's prose or poetry, I don't know which you're leaning into here. I would personally consider this an attempt at 'literary writing' and so therefore, the poetic nature of it still needs to be clear and not too oblique. It's not an easy thing to do. In literary writing, the flow and rhythm are important and you can have double meanings as long as the focused meaning is dominant, and on a second reading of the story, other things may or may not be spotted. In poetry ambiguity is accepted and almost wanted. You're meant to stop and read through a poem several times to take meaning from it, but in prose, that kills the pacing dead. A mistake I'm currently rectifying myself. 

*5/* Back to the edit: This feels long winded. 'the setting down of what is ceremonial' confused me and I'm not sure what you're getting at. Is there a reason he's differentiating or are you simply saying in a long winded way he listened to the ceremony? Wouldn't the whole thing just be a ceremony? A tongue slipping is movement and whilst a sheet of ice would be slippery, it's not moving. You'd have to make the connection a slightly different way. If we see words or his tongue as a 'thing' moving over a sheet of ice, then we can perhaps make that work. One thing I would say is to concentrate on losing those 'wases'. I know I've said it before but here it's really throwing things out. You're also trying to do too much with this sentence. I'd cut it into two: * 'For hours Augustine listened to the ceremony, the words slipping across the speaker's tongue as if on sheets of ice.' *Personally, I'd lose that metaphor but I've just changed it to show you what I meant. *6/* I don't think you need 'experiment' when you have 'experience'. I know they're different but doubling up there feels awkward. I'd use 'through' and not 'with' too:* 'He wanted to experience life through animal eyes once the ceremony ended.'* I got rid of another 'was'. *7/* This is two sentences too. You've got a comma splice after 'power': *'He lived the life he wanted but wanted more; a higher power. Although he wasn't religious, he found God mysterious and cunning.'* 'cunning like a fox' is something of a cliche, so I'd lose that. The very last sentence you don't need. You've established how enthralled and engaged he was so there's no point in summarising it at the end. 

That took a while! lol. I'm interested to see what it looks like when put together:

*Augustine's heart pounded along with the beat of the drum as the sun cast it's brilliance over the seaside village. Villagers were overjoyed to finally see Augustine's appreciation of the incantations and accompanying percussion. The speaker spoke along rhythmically in Latin, the countless rows of seated listeners entranced by the diction and gravitas. For hours Augustine listened to the ceremony, the words slipping across the speaker's tongue as if on sheets of ice. He wanted to experience life through animal eyes once the ceremony ended. He lived the life he wanted but wanted more; a higher power. Although he wasn't religious, he found God mysterious and cunning.*

I'd want to tinker with this a heck of a lot more though. I've made a few little adjustments in line with my full understanding of the context, but have tried to keep it as you've framed it.


----------



## neophyte

I probably have hundreds of these lemons in my drafts:

_His clothes were ripped and burnt, his legs from the knee down were bloody and his face and his palms were muddy. He looked a little crazy. And more than a little homeless. The boy _[this is a different person than who I'm talking about in this passage] _turned on his heels and ran away from him while screaming. I think it's time to go, he thought to himself. But even as he thought, he couldn't resist taking a peek to see what happened to the scorpion. And he saw a sight to behold._


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

neophyte said:


> I probably have hundreds of these lemons in my drafts:
> 
> *1/* His clothes were ripped and burnt, his legs from the knee down were bloody and his face and his palms were muddy. *2/ *He looked a little crazy. *2/* And more than a little homeless. *3/ *The boy [this is a different person than who I'm talking about in this passage] turned on his heels and ran away from him while screaming. *4/ * I think it's time to go, he thought to himself. *5/* But even as he thought, he couldn't resist taking a peek to see what happened to the scorpion. And he saw a sight to behold.


*1/* You have 3 repeats of 'his' and 3 repeats of 'were' in this sentence. There's nothing inherently wrong with that but I'd personally try to find ways of removing some, but if you can't do that, put more distance between the repetition:* 'His clothes were ripped and burnt, jeans bloody from the knee down, and his face and palms were covered in mud.'* I'd actually like to see the previous sentence to see if there was a better way of reducing those repetitions. I've changed 'muddy' to 'covered in mud' just to get rid of the 'bloody'/'muddy' clash. I think part of the problem there is you're asking too much of one sentence. In order for me to make that even smoother, I'd add in more detail but that would mean changing it entirely. The main thing I'm concentrating on there is reducing the repetitions' *2/* You've got two sentences here and a repeat of 'little'. That is a perfectly good mechanism but here it's forced a slight problem into the meaning. Can you be a 'little homeless'? If you have a home, regardless of how long you inhabit that home, you're not 'homeless'. And bring both of those sentences together because I see no benefits from beginning with 'and' in the second sentence. There are benefits sometimes, but not here: *'He looked a little crazy, and homeless.'* I don't like the way 'and homeless' ends that sentence though. It feels a little throwaway, although it's not too bad. I'd think about reintroducing 'more than', switch the sentence around, and apply it to 'crazy': *'He looked homeless and more than a little crazy'*. *3/* Who is this boy if he's not the crazy, homeless person and not the protag? Is he just a random boy? If he is then it should be 'A boy turned ...'. If it's the protag, then it's best to provide a name. Because it's neither, I'm left wondering who is thinking. I'm going to assume 'the boy' is the protag. But then 'I think it's time to go' suggests he's not. He wouldn't be thinking that because the boy has already run. Regardless, 'ran from him while screaming' is too long winded:* 'The boy turned on his heels and ran away screaming'. 4/ *'he thought to himself'. A thought can only exist in the mind of one person, so of course it goes without question it's 'to himself'.* 'I think it's time to go, he thought'*. *5/ *Why start a new sentence here? If you're going to use repetition for emphasis then usually it occurs in the same sentence. There's no hard and fast rule about starting sentences with 'and' or 'but' (not now at least) but if you can avoid it or it doesn't offer anything in regard to interpretation, stylistic choice or rhythm, then there's no point in doing it. I would have liked to have seen the previous paragraph and the next paragraph for more context. You may have mentioned the boy earlier and you have definitely mentioned the scorpion. *'I think it's time to go, he thought, but even as he thought, he couldn't resist a peek to see what happened to the scorpion.' *


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

I'm going to post this here just so people can give it a listen. It's well worth it. This is what I'd sound like if I ever got lucky enough to be interviewed. It's actually uncanny:


----------



## neophyte

Thanks for the help! 



TheMightyAz said:


> *3/* Who is this boy if he's not the crazy, homeless person and not the protag? Is he just a random boy? If he is then it should be 'A boy turned ...'. If it's the protag, then it's best to provide a name. Because it's neither, I'm left wondering who is thinking. I'm going to assume 'the boy' is the protag. But then 'I think it's time to go' suggests he's not. He wouldn't be thinking that because the boy has already run.


So a few sentences ago, protag jumped over a fence into someone's backyard and saw a 5-year old kid. So 'the boy' ran away, then protag decided it was time to leave as well. It's hard to understand out of context I think.



TheMightyAz said:


> I would have liked to have seen the previous paragraph and the next paragraph for more context. You may have mentioned the boy earlier and you have definitely mentioned the scorpion.


Previous Paragraph:
The scorpion started breathing fire, much to the dismay of the trees nearby, and Marcus felt like burnt toast. He jumped over a house fence, hoping the scorpion didn't see him. It took him a moment to realize he was trespassing in someone's _backyard_. A 5-year old kid looked up and gaped at him in shock, dropping the toy car in his hand. Marcus realized that he did look a bit, well, like a madman.

Next Paragraph:
Another kid, about his age, was fighting the scorpion. Every time the scorpion turned to glower at him, he teleported elsewhere and continued punching. Marcus was glued to the battle as the scorpion tried hopelessly to dodge his punches and kicks. This kid could _teleport_. This kid had superpowers too. He  Marcus didn't even notice that his jaw was hanging open.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

neophyte said:


> Thanks for the help!
> 
> 
> So a few sentences ago, protag jumped over a fence into someone's backyard and saw a 5-year old kid. So 'the boy' ran away, then protag decided it was time to leave as well. It's hard to understand out of context I think.
> 
> 
> Previous Paragraph:
> The scorpion started breathing fire, much to the dismay of the trees nearby, and Marcus felt like burnt toast. He jumped over a house fence, hoping the scorpion didn't see him. It took him a moment to realize he was trespassing in someone's _backyard_. A 5-year old kid looked up and gaped at him in shock, dropping the toy car in his hand. Marcus realized that he did look a bit, well, like a madman.
> 
> Next Paragraph:
> Another kid, about his age, was fighting the scorpion. Every time the scorpion turned to glower at him, he teleported elsewhere and continued punching. Marcus was glued to the battle as the scorpion tried hopelessly to dodge his punches and kicks. This kid could _teleport_. This kid had superpowers too. He  Marcus didn't even notice that his jaw was hanging open.


The thing is though, regardless of context, every paragraph should be self contained, creating an image, event, thought, etc. Of course a natural flow into that paragraph and out of that paragraph is needed, but the 'body' of it should be able to stand alone.


----------



## alpacinoutd

Does this work?

Natalie woke from a dreamless sleep. The Boeing still thundered through the sky. It appeared as though the flight was to last forever. She gazed out the window, felt the emptiness inside her merge with the blank, blue skies. She knew she was beyond caring anymore. A part of her was bothered by the apathy, but with it came stability. She no longer had expectations from others, from life so she would never be disappointed. She would never feel abandoned, betrayed. Nothing could ruffle the placid, yet stagnant waters of her mind. 

The plane rattled slightly, waking her seatmate. Natalie stole a quick glance at his drowsy eyes. When boarding, she hadn't noticed how handsome he was. A younger Natalie would've been thrilled. She would've felt a tingling feeling in her belly and would've flirted with him. But the new Natalie, having been let down by many men was simply indifferent.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> Does this work?
> 
> *1/ *Natalie woke from a dreamless sleep. *1/* The Boeing still thundered through the sky. *1/* It appeared as though the flight was to last forever. *2/* She gazed out the window, felt the emptiness inside her merge with the blank, blue skies. *3/* She knew she was beyond caring anymore. A *P*art of her was bothered by the apathy, but with it came stability. *4/* She no longer had expectations from others, from life so she would never be disappointed. *5/* She would never feel abandoned, betrayed. *6/* Nothing could ruffle the placid, yet stagnant waters of her mind.



*1/* Your work is getting much better. The only thing I would say about these opening three paragraphs is they're a little monotonous rhythmically. I'd consider amalgamating sentence one and two. *'Natalie woke from a sleepless dream, the Boeing still thundering through the sky'* *2/* This is a strong sentence and a nice metaphor. I'd just tinker a little: *'She gazed out the window and felt the emptiness inside merge with the bland, blue skies'.* 'Blank' suggests 'nothing'. 'Bland' is something but ordinary and uninteresting, which fits the idea of her emptiness. *3/* That overstretching has sneaked back in here and introduced an unwanted 'was' along with it: *'She did not care anymore' *(emphatic) or *'She didn't care anymore' *(not so emphatic). *4/* First real hiccup. 'had expectations from others' sounds awkward. You've got a comma before 'from' but not before 'so' where it would naturally fit. The problem is you've tried to inject too much there and tripped over yourself. The first half could easily be reworked to read* 'Others no longer had expectations of her'* but that leaves the second half problematic as it stands. *'Others no longer had expectations of her, and so eased the disappointment she felt for herself.' *I don't know what that disappointment is referring to so I've attributed it to herself. If it isn't a disappointment in her then you either need to mention earlier what that disappointment is and mirror it here, or be more specific here.* 5/* As always, I'm critiquing this as I go along to mirror how a reader would take this in. I'm struggling to make a connection between 'disappointed' and 'never feel abandoned, betrayed'. It doesn't quite make sense. I couldn't offer an alternative there because I don't really know what you're trying to say. Give it a little more thought. *6/* 'ruffle' isn't a word you'd associate with water and I'd say 'stagnant waters' is a metaphor for 'placid', which means one should go. Maybe: *'Nothing could disturb the stagnant waters of her mind.'* 



alpacinoutd said:


> *1/* The plane rattled slightly, waking her seatmate. *2/* Natalie stole a quick glance at his drowsy eyes. When boarding, she hadn't noticed how handsome he was. A younger Natalie would've been thrilled. She would've felt a tingling feeling in her belly and would've flirted with him. But the new Natalie, having been let down by many men was simply indifferent.


*1/* You want the rattle to wake her seatmate but for some reason you've lowered the real possibility it would actually do that by adding 'slightly'. It feels an odd and unnecessary addition. Just lose it. *2/* A 'glance' is quick. 

Getting much better! Keep your eye on beginning too many sentences with the same word and try to reduce those 'was's a little more, if only to force yourself to vary your sentence structure. And be aware of sentence length. Vary them more often. If you find you've got three sentences next to each other of similar length and none of them have a comma break to change the rhythm, mix it up a bit more. If you find you've got three sentences with the same word at the start of the sentence, lose one of them, preferably the middle one if you can.

The words should create the rhythm. If the structure does, it'll eventually jar on the reader. And as an extra reminder for you and myself, don't forget the senses. Sight, sound, smell, touch, taste (usually in that order)

You see the cafe, hear the door bell tinkle, smell the bacon, hold the bun to your mouth and taste the bacon.


----------



## Taylor

KeganThompson said:


> Okay so.... I do not have a section or a piece to get 'sliced up' atm but I am currently working on a list of things that I want to focus on and improve on. (my punctuation is trash but, I'd like to focus on my major issues first)
> 
> So far:
> *copulas
> *Be more describe/ focus on describing the right things
> *Be more direct
> *Keep paragraphs confined to one idea
> 
> Advice/ things to add to my list?


Looking just at this post, I would say syntax.  For example:

*Watch for copulas
*Be more descriptive
*Focus on describing the right things
*Be more direct
*Keep paragraphs confined to one idea


----------



## KeganThompson

Taylor said:


> Looking just at this post, I would say syntax.  For example:
> 
> *Watch for copulas
> *Be more descriptive
> *Focus on describing the right things
> *Be more direct
> *Keep paragraphs confined to one idea


I need to work on my technical skills like Grammar/ formating. I like to write dialogue a lot but I tend to not format it correctly. I miss a lot of the nuances of it.


----------



## Taylor

KeganThompson said:


> I need to work on my technical skills like grammar/ formating. I like to write dialogue a lot but I tend to not format it correctly. I miss a lot of the nuances of it.


What do you mean by missing nuances?  And how does that relate to syntax?


----------



## KeganThompson

Taylor said:


> What do you mean by missing nuances?  And how does that relate to syntax?


It was something I was adding along with syntax. Like How I use a period instead of comma or vise versa, or if it's a line that should be by itself or attached to the dialogue. That's what I mean by small nuances/ differences. My lack of knowing if I'm doing it correctly or not has been bothering me lately. Before it was something I pushed to the side and wasn't a certain.
_Adds write with clarity to the list_
Sorry sometimes I'm not great at explaining myself lool.


----------



## Taylor

KeganThompson said:


> It was something I was adding along with syntax. Like How I use a period instead of comma or vise versa, or if it's a line that should be by itself or attached to the dialogue. That's what I mean by small nuances/ differences. My lack of knowing if I'm doing it correctly or not has been bothering me lately. Before it was something I pushed to the side and wasn't a certain.
> _Adds write with clarity to the list_
> Sorry sometimes I'm not great at explaining myself lool.


It's easy to make mistakes when writing dialogue.  I struggle with the same thing. 

I edited this post because it didn't sound nice before.


----------



## VRanger

KeganThompson said:


> It was something I was adding along with syntax. Like How I use a period instead of comma or vise versa, or if it's a line that should be by itself or attached to the dialogue.


You can add a lot more inside a dialogue paragraph than you might suspect. I consider incidental action and associated internal dialogue to be fair game, but I also sometimes see narrative associated with the dialogue included. It's fairly common for me to have a character say something, then include a bit of incidental action or a thought about what they're saying, then continue the dialogue in the same paragraph ... and sometimes within a sentence. I've always tried to keep anything between the dialogue short.

However, I read a paragraph in the Debbie Macomber book I've been reading as Romance research that starts with dialogue, has a long section of narrative, another dialogue sentence, more narrative, and finishes with the last of the dialogue.

Best practice? Probably not. But she got away with it. I would note I've only seen this ONCE so far in that novel.  

Examples would be:
Incidental action: "Hi Beth." She held the phone to her shoulder and took a tray of cookies out of the oven as she continued. "I was wondering when you'd call back."

Internal dialogue: "Hi Beth." She thought to herself Beth was very late returning her call. "I have something important to tell you."

Narrative: "Hi Beth". She'd glanced at Caller ID. She always found it odd when people called her name while answering before she announced herself, but now she had started to do it, too. Beth was her oldest friend, and they normally talked at least once a week. "I have something important to tell you."

The last one is something like the paragraph in the Macomber book, but her paragraph was much longer! My thought when I do it is simply to make sure what's in between isn't going to make the reader lose the thread of the dialogue, which I'll have to say, the Debbie Macomber paragraph made me do as a reader. At the end I had to glance back up at the start to recognize I was still inside dialogue.


KeganThompson said:


> _Adds write with clarity to the list_


Always one of my two favorite Isaac Asimov quotes. Asked his most important consideration in writing, he answered, "Clarity".


----------



## Taylor

KeganThompson said:


> Like How I use a period instead of comma or vise versa, or if it's a line that should be by itself or attached to the dialogue. That's what I mean by small nuances/ differences. My lack of knowing if I'm doing it correctly or not has been bothering me lately.


Kegan, your approach to dialogue is one of your strengths.  It's realistic and portrays much of the story.  With the nuts and bolts part, I have asked the same questions. I often study the dialogue of my favorite authors.  It's funny how when you read, you can miss these subtle nuances, but once you make yourself aware of the options, it feels more natural.  


vranger said:


> You can add a lot more inside a dialogue paragraph than you might suspect. I consider incidental action and associated internal dialogue to be fair game, but I also sometimes see narrative associated with the dialogue included. It's fairly common for me to have a character say something, then include a bit of incidental action or a thought about what they're saying, then continue the dialogue in the same paragraph ... and sometimes within a sentence. I've always tried to keep anything between the dialogue short.
> 
> However, I read a paragraph in the Debbie Macomber book I've been reading as Romance research that starts with dialogue, has a long section of narrative, another dialogue sentence, more narrative, and finishes with the last of the dialogue.
> 
> Best practice? Probably not. But she got away with it. I would note I've only seen this ONCE so far in that novel.
> 
> Examples would be:
> Incidental action: "Hi Beth." She held the phone to her shoulder and took a tray of cookies out of the oven as she continued. "I was wondering when you'd call back.
> 
> Internal dialogue: "Hi Beth." She thought to herself Beth was very late returning her call. "I have something important to tell you."
> 
> Narrative: "Hi Beth". She'd glanced at Caller ID. She always found it odd when people called her name while answering before she announced herself, but now she had started to do it, too. Beth was her oldest friend, and they normally talked at least once a week. "I have something important to tell you."
> 
> The last one is something like the paragraph in the Macomber book, but her paragraph was much longer! My thought when I do it is simply to make sure what's in between isn't going to make the reader lose the thread of the dialogue, which I'll have to say, the Debbie Macomber paragraph made me do as a reader. At the end I had to glance back up at the start to recognize I was still inside dialogue.
> 
> Always one of my two favorite Isaac Asimov quotes. Asked his most important consideration in writing, he answered, "Clarity".


All great techniques!  For internal dialogue I would add:

"Hi Beth." _It's about time she calls me!_ "I have something important to tell you."


----------



## KeganThompson

Taylor said:


> Kegan, your approach to dialogue is one of your strengths.  It's realistic and portrays much of the story.  With the nuts and bolts part, I have asked the same questions. I often study the dialogue of my favorite authors.  It's funny how when you read, you can miss these subtle nuances, but once you make yourself aware of the options, it feels more natural.


Thanks. I write a lot of dialogue so I need to learn how to format it better. Sometimes it can get a bit confusing on who is talking. Its happened a few times with my stories. but yes my favorite things to write are characters' interactions and perceptions. 
I'm trying to pay more attention to dialogue and how its set up. Currently, I'm reading catching fire atm.


Taylor said:


> All great techniques!  For internal dialogue I would add:
> 
> "Hi Beth." _It's about time she calls me!_ "I have something important to tell you."





vranger said:


> You can add a lot more inside a dialogue paragraph than you might suspect. I consider incidental action and associated internal dialogue to be fair game, but I also sometimes see narrative associated with the dialogue included. It's fairly common for me to have a character say something, then include a bit of incidental action or a thought about what they're saying, then continue the dialogue in the same paragraph ... and sometimes within a sentence. I've always tried to keep anything between the dialogue short.
> 
> However, I read a paragraph in the Debbie Macomber book I've been reading as Romance research that starts with dialogue, has a long section of narrative, another dialogue sentence, more narrative, and finishes with the last of the dialogue.
> 
> Best practice? Probably not. But she got away with it. I would note I've only seen this ONCE so far in that novel.
> 
> Examples would be:
> Incidental action: "Hi Beth." She held the phone to her shoulder and took a tray of cookies out of the oven as she continued. "I was wondering when you'd call back."
> 
> Internal dialogue: "Hi Beth." She thought to herself Beth was very late returning her call. "I have something important to tell you."
> 
> Narrative: "Hi Beth". She'd glanced at Caller ID. She always found it odd when people called her name while answering before she announced herself, but now she had started to do it, too. Beth was her oldest friend, and they normally talked at least once a week. "I have something important to tell you."
> 
> The last one is something like the paragraph in the Macomber book, but her paragraph was much longer! My thought when I do it is simply to make sure what's in between isn't going to make the reader lose the thread of the dialogue, which I'll have to say, the Debbie Macomber paragraph made me do as a reader. At the end I had to glance back up at the start to recognize I was still inside dialogue.
> 
> Always one of my two favorite Isaac Asimov quotes. Asked his most important consideration in writing, he answered, "Clarity".


What about internal dialouge while another character is talking? I'm assuming it has to be brief.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Thanks. I write a lot of dialogue so I need to learn how to format it better. Sometimes it can get a bit confusing on who is talking. Its happened a few times with my stories. but yes my favorite things to write are characters' interactions and perceptions.
> I'm trying to pay more attention to dialogue and how its set up. Currently, I'm reading catching fire atm.
> 
> 
> What about internal dialouge while another character is talking? I'm assuming it has to be brief.


It's a simple matter of new character dialogue, new paragraph. I've pointed out why you get confused. It's because you often put all the narrative before what is said. That wasn't to say it's wrong (all the time), just to help you learn to get in the habit and recognise what needs to be in a separate paragraph. For instance, you'll write a lengthy sentence to begin the paragraph, and then add in dialogue at the end. Your head is still thinking 'paragraph' and so you'll then forget it's about the dialogue and forget to start a new paragraph because the content seems to relate to the narrative in the dialogue paragraph. You muddy your own head.

To break that habit, do it the traditional way and it will become clear. Think of the dialogue first and THEN add in any narrative to express behaviour:

*1:* She shoved the door open and marched into the livingroom. "What's this all about?" she asked.
*2:* "What's this all about?" she asked after she shoved the door open and marched into the livingroom.

There's nothing really wrong with the first version but you wouldn't want to make a habit of it. What it does though is make you see that paragraph as 'dialogue' and not 'narrative', making it easier to format. Make the formatting choice easy to get used to it.


----------



## Taylor

TheMightyAz said:


> It's a simple matter of new character dialogue, new paragraph. I've pointed out why you get confused. It's because you often put all the narrative before what is said. That wasn't to say it's wrong (all the time), just to help you learn to get in the habit and recognise what needs to be in a separate paragraph. For instance, you'll write a lengthy sentence to begin the paragraph, and then add in dialogue at the end. Your head is still thinking 'paragraph' and so you'll then forget it's about the dialogue and forget to start a new paragraph because the content seems to relate to the narrative in the dialogue paragraph. You muddy your own head.
> 
> To break that habit, do it the traditional way and it will become clear.



The basic rule is new character action or dialogue, new paragraph.  The order you choose depends on what you are saying, and in this case, I prefer the first option.

Mark walked across the room to the corner dresser. "I swear I put your keys here."
Mark walked across the room to the corner dresser and said, "I swear I put your keys here."
“I swear I put your keys here," Mark said after he walked across the room to the corner dresser.

With longer paragraphs and dialogue at the end, it's a bit more complicated.  It wouldn't make sense to put dialogue at the end of a paragraph describing, say, the landscape, but dialogue could logically be at the end, if the entire paragraph was describing the speaker's thoughts, or the situation


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Taylor said:


> The basic rule is new character action or dialogue, new paragraph.  The order you choose depends on what you are saying, and in this case, I prefer the first option.
> 
> Mark walked across the room to the corner dresser. "I swear I put your keys here."
> Mark walked across the room to the corner dresser and said, "I swear I put your keys here."
> “I swear I put your keys here," Mark said after he walked across the room to the corner dresser.
> 
> With longer paragraphs and dialogue at the end, it's a bit more complicated.  It wouldn't make sense to put dialogue at the end of a paragraph describing, say, the landscape, but dialogue could logically be at the end, if the entire paragraph was describing the speaker's thoughts, or the situation


I'm talking about how to break a habit, not the finer details of dialogue paragraphs. I know why Kegan keeps making that mistake and I'm offering a solution to the confusion (for now). Yes, once the habit is formed, then you can think more deeply about it.


----------



## Taylor

TheMightyAz said:


> *1:* She shoved the door open and marched into the livingroom. "What's this all about?" she asked.
> *2:* "What's this all about?" she asked after she shoved the door open and marched into the livingroom.
> 
> There's nothing really wrong with the first version but you wouldn't want to make a habit of it. What it does though is make you see that paragraph as 'dialogue' and not 'narrative', making it easier to format. Make the formatting choice easy to get used to it.


You added this to your post, which makes mine a little redundant...lol!  But you do bring up a good point in that you use a lower case after a question mark when the dialogue tag starts with a pronoun.  That's one that is often mistaken.

But personally, I prefer your first version.  It sets the stage for what's about to be said.  The second one seems a bit awkward.  Like you have to go back in time.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Taylor said:


> You added this to your post, which makes mine a little redundant...lol!  But you do bring up a good point in that you use a lower case after a question mark when the dialogue tag starts with a pronoun.  That's one that is often mistaken.
> 
> *But personally, I prefer your first version.  It sets the stage for what's about to be said.  The second one seems a bit awkward.  Like you have to go back in time.*


I know ... Kegan has got a habit of not formatting dialogue correctly. The reason that keeps happening is because she puts a lot of 'narrative' before the dialogue, forcing her into a 'narrative' mentality. To get out of that habit, start with the 'dialogue', then it's obvious any new dialogue should have it's own paragraph. It's just a method to form a habit, not a critique on how best to write dialogue.


----------



## VRanger

KeganThompson said:


> What about internal dialouge while another character is talking? I'm assuming it has to be brief.


As a general rule, I like to wait and do that in reaction to the dialogue, but sure, you could. I would point out that you wouldn't want the internal dialogue to overshadow the other character's spoken dialogue ... unless that was the whole purpose. I have a scene in my last novel where the bad guy is talking away and my first-person hero is so lost in thought he misses all the important parts ... but I do that by actually leaving out all the important parts and only writing the words he pays attention to.


----------



## Taylor

vranger said:


> As a general rule, I like to wait and do that in reaction to the dialogue, but sure, you could. I would point out that you wouldn't want the internal dialogue to overshadow the other character's spoken dialogue ... unless that was the whole purpose. I have a scene in my last novel where the bad guy is talking away and my first-person hero is so lost in thought he misses all the important parts ... but I do that by actually leaving out all the important parts and only writing the words he pays attention to.


That would probably be true to life for many conversations...lol!   I think you could also do it if you indicated it was like a flashback.    You know we all have the experience of our life flashing before us in a split second when we think we might die.  It's a great question though... I will watch for good examples of it.


----------



## NajaNoir

I wasn't sure about adding the paragraph before this one for context purposes, I didn't want to give away too much of the story.  My main concern is that last sentence. I'm wondering if there is any suggestion on how to re-word. I have written it several different ways, but nothing works, at least not well. I could get rid of it, and might have to, but that takes a certain feeling out of the story that I'm trying to convey. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.


She had appeared peaceful lying there, as if simply passed out.  He watched as it methodically stuffed her body into that cramped narrow bag. Zipped it up, then folded her like a blanket and deposited the bundle into the nearest trash chute. He had seen them discard broken humans many times since that moment. It's no secret that it was quite an unpleasant experience for everyone. They could help, as he could have helped, but only at a cost. The real secret, the one that everyone thinks, but keeps to themselves, is, better anyone other than oneself.


----------



## Steve_Rivers

Maybe Im mis-reading the context here but isn't it easier to just express that last sentence as "better someone else than me?"

"The real secret, the one everyone thinks but keeps to themselves, is: better someone else than me."  ?


----------



## NajaNoir

Does that work for 3rd person pov?

It's possible I'm reading too much into it, I've stared at that one sentence/paragraph for so long, the words barely make sense to me anymore.


----------



## Steve_Rivers

I would think it should work, because you're not specifically referencing a person or a viewpoint, rather you're relaying a common-use saying from the general public. That's why I used the : to more denote you're relaying it as an example of such.

Like "The saying around town was: If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

I know that doesn't include a pronoun, but hopefully that gets across what I mean. The narration isn't claiming a viewpoint on the words spoken, just relaying the phrase or idea. The secret, in this case, is what people think instead of saying and it just so happens to contain a pronoun. Fingers crossed that makes sense.


----------



## NajaNoir

It does, but I think I just changed it.

Edit: On second thought, after sleep and time away from staring at it,  what you said works much better.  Thanks!


----------



## Llyralen

alpacinoutd said:


> I've written something which I know needs to be developed. But is this correct and natural-sounding now?
> 
> Sara's childhood had been a disaster. She'd gone through an array of suffering and it was suffering which had turned her into a psychopath. She was 20 when she realized seeing other people's pain gave her a vague satisfaction.
> Gareth, when she found him, turned out to be the perfect channel for her sadistic inclinations. She'd experienced a series of disastrous relationships with men who would run when she showed them her true colors. But in Gareth she'd found a mild, meek boy who would stay after she inflicted pain on him. She could make him suffer to her heart's content, like the world had made her suffer.


Work on "show, don't tell".   The below gets into her thoughts instead of the author's thoughts.  I'm realizing lately that many descriptions tell us more about the person who is describing than the person being described, so as authors we need to know when we are showing up in the story.

alpacinoutd wrote:
"Sara was 20 when she realized seeing other people's pain gave her a vague satisfaction.
In Gareth she'd found a milk, meek boy who would stay after she inflected pain on him.  She could make him suffer to her heart's content, like the world had made her suffer."


----------



## KeganThompson

How about I start putting snippets of dialogue in here. If I focus solely on that, I can break 'the habit' and figure out punctuation/ grammar. Examples are helpful but I think focusing on what I wrote, and if it works or not, and _why_ will help me understand. I think the only way I can 'get it' is if I engage with my own examples lol (or that'd be the quickest way)

I've drafting (ugh) but I will try to put something in here soon. I was staring at my dialogue and I was like ?? is this correct or no? then I just got more confused trying to figure it out


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> How about I start putting snippets of dialogue in here. If I focus solely on that, I can break 'the habit' and figure out punctuation/ grammar. Examples are helpful but I think focusing on what I wrote, and if it works or not, and _why_ will help me understand. I think the only way I can 'get it' is if I engage with my own examples lol (or that'd be the quickest way)
> 
> I've drafting (ugh) but I will try to put something in here soon. I was staring at my dialogue and I was like ?? is this correct or no? then I just got more confused trying to figure it out


Your dialogue tends to be pretty good. Try what I've said for a week or so until you've got it nailed. You can easily go back into those separate paragraphs later and adjust to your own tastes. The main thing is to get your mindset right so you then automatically do it, even if you DO put the narrative first before the dialogue. Like I said though, I would avoid making a habit of it. Dialogue has a flow and if you read most books that flow is clear.


----------



## NajaNoir

I'm wondering if I allude too much attention to his height?  Dwarfed, immense, then tall, Is that overkill?

"Leo awoke to find a stranger standing over him. He was frowning and looking down at him as though he were an errant child. After a moment the man bent and offered an arm to Leo, who, upon standing on wobbly legs, felt dwarfed by the man's immense height.

The tall man was well-suited in all black, save for the ice-blue buttons on his coat, of which his crimson-colored skin stood in stark contrast. Behind him, an elaborate archway formed where the wall had split."


----------



## Taylor

NajaNoir said:


> I'm wondering if I allude too much attention to his height?  Dwarfed, immense, then tall, Is that overkill?
> 
> "Leo awoke to find a stranger standing over him. He was frowning and looking down at him as though he were an errant child. After a moment the man bent and offered an arm to Leo, who, upon standing on wobbly legs, felt dwarfed by the man's immense height.
> 
> The tall man was well-suited in all black, save for the ice-blue buttons on his coat, of which his crimson-colored skin stood in stark contrast. Behind him, an elaborate archway formed where the wall had split."


You don't need the "tall" here.  Can you come up with another adjective that adds to the image but does not allude to his height?   Ominous, stately...etc.


----------



## NajaNoir

Yes, I think so. I believe "solemn" might suit him well.  

Thank you!


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

NajaNoir said:


> I'm wondering if I allude too much attention to his height?  Dwarfed, immense, then tall, Is that overkill?
> 
> Leo awoke to find a stranger standing over him. *1/* He was frowning and looking down at him as though he were an errant child. *2/* After a moment the man bent and offered an arm to Leo, who, upon standing on wobbly legs, felt dwarfed by the man's immense height.



*1/ *This is about the dreaded 'wases' 'weres' and gerunds. There's nothing wrong with them but if removing them makes things more immediate and doesn't interfere with the meaning, then it's best to lose them. The only small hiccup I could see by doing that would be the pronoun 'he' at the beginning of the sentence, which could be construed as Leo, but that's quickly cleared up with 'looking down'. *'He frowned and looked down on him as though he was an errant child'.* Here though, we have another problem in that the second 'he' could also be construed as Leo. Is it the stranger that looks like the errant child or Leo? That problem could be eased by changing it to *'He frowned and looked down on Leo as if an errant child' *or if it is Leo that looks like the errant child *'He frowned and looked down on Leo as if he was an errant child.'* When you've got two people with the same sex and you refer to them both as 'he' or 'him', it gets pretty tricky sometimes. *2/* I don't think there's a problem with 'dwarfed'. The problem is 'immense'. Leo only 'felt' dwarfed were as the man was actually immense. You've established a height difference with 'dwarfed' (much smaller than) and don't really need to double down on it with 'immense' (much bigger than). We get the picture.



NajaNoir said:


> The tall man was well-suited in all black, save for the ice-blue buttons on his coat, of which his crimson-colored skin stood in stark contrast. Behind him, an elaborate archway formed where the wall had split.


Do you need 'tall'? We move straight from 'dwarfed' to 'tall'. If there was a little more distance between those descriptions then perhaps there'd be an argument for reiterating the height difference. It also shrinks the man slightly when you consider 'dwarfed' and 'immense'. 'Tall' wouldn't be a word I'd associate with either perspectives.


----------



## NajaNoir

TheMightyAz said:


> *1/ *This is about the dreaded 'wases' 'weres' and gerunds. There's nothing wrong with them but if removing them makes things more immediate and doesn't interfere with the meaning, then it's best to lose them. The only small hiccup I could see by doing that would be the pronoun 'he' at the beginning of the sentence, which could be construed as Leo, but that's quickly cleared up with 'looking down'. *'He frowned and looked down on him as though he was an errant child'.* Here though, we have another problem in that the second 'he' could also be construed as Leo. Is it the stranger that looks like the errant child or Leo? That problem could be eased by changing it to *'He frowned and looked down on Leo as if an errant child' *or if it is Leo that looks like the errant child *'He frowned and looked down on Leo as if he was an errant child.'* When you've got two people with the same sex and you refer to them both as 'he' or 'him', it gets pretty tricky sometimes. *2/* I don't think there's a problem with 'dwarfed'. The problem is 'immense'. Leo only 'felt' dwarfed were as the man was actually immense. You've established a height difference with 'dwarfed' (much smaller than) and don't really need to double down on it with 'immense' (much bigger than). We get the picture.
> 
> 
> Do you need 'tall'? We move straight from 'dwarfed' to 'tall'. If there was a little more distance between those descriptions then perhaps there'd be an argument for reiterating the height difference. It also shrinks the man slightly when you consider 'dwarfed' and 'immense'. 'Tall' wouldn't be a word I'd associate with either perspectives.


I hadn't even considered that "he" could get tricky in a paragraph. Much thanks for pointing that out. Bad habit to assume the reader knows what I mean.

Had that feeling that immense might be too much, but had not realized how I was shrinking him down by using "tall".  Good to know and keep in mind as I further develop my skills.


Thanks so much.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

NajaNoir said:


> I hadn't even considered that "he" could get tricky in a paragraph. Much thanks for pointing that out. Bad habit to assume the reader knows what I mean.
> 
> Had that feeling that immense might be too much, but had not realized how I was shrinking him down by using "tall".  Good to know and keep in mind as I further develop my skills.
> 
> 
> Thanks so much.


One of the biggest problems I find when offering help is the sentence structure itself. It's linked to style and tinkering too much would alter that style. Therefore I try my best to improve it (hopefully) without changing the style. It's not always possible to find the perfect solution when you do that. I'd likely rewrite that completely or look at it from a completely different angle.

Neither of the options I've given satisfy me. They're just 'closer' to clarity. What you really want is perfect clarity.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

If you're wondering where I've been for the last few days, my laptop finally died and I've had to buy a new one. God, I hate the unnecessary flash of everything on it!


----------



## Ajoy

TheMightyAz said:


> If you're wondering where I've been for the last few days, my laptop finally died and I've had to buy a new one. God, I hate the unnecessary flash of everything on it!


Our work laptops are replaced every four years and I have a cranky adjustment period each time (even though I always end up happier in the end). Also, I only ever end up using maybe 15-20 percent of the available apps and features. It becomes easier to ignore the extras after a while.


----------



## alpacinoutd

Is this okay?

She looked out the window, at the slopes of the mountains and up the peaks which were shrouded in gray clouds. A thunder crackled and the clouds started spraying the city with almost frozen droplets. The skies were uncertain. She couldn't tell if it was raining or snowing. A cold gust of wind blew in through the half open window, making the flames of the fireplace skitter. She huddled, closing the window. The clouds had started hovering, spreading over the city like a duvet. 
She snuggled under her blanket and tried to get some sleep but the sound of water dripping from the ledges and overhangs wouldn't let her.


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## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> Is this okay?
> 
> *1/ *She looked out the window, at the slopes of the mountains and up the peaks which were shrouded in gray clouds.* 2/* A thunder crackled and the clouds started spraying the city with almost frozen droplets. The skies were uncertain. *3/ *She couldn't tell if it was raining or snowing. *4/* A cold gust of wind blew in through the half open window, making the flames of the fireplace skitter. *5/* She huddled, closing the window. *6/* The clouds had started hovering, spreading over the city like a duvet.
> *7/* She snuggled under her blanket and tried to get some sleep but the sound of water dripping from the ledges and overhangs wouldn't let her.


*1/ *Remember I keep mentioning the assumed state of something? She looked at the slopes of the mountains (assumed state). Mountains have slopes by default so this makes it appear as if she wasn't actually looking at the mountains (which consist of slopes) but rather she ignored the the mountains themselves and concentrated entirely on the nature of them. You don't need a comma there. She looks at the peaks which are the very tops of the mountain. Can she look 'up the peaks'? She can look 'up the mountain' because that journey would go from the foot of the mountain to the peak, but she couldn't look beyond the peak because there's nothing left of the mountain beyond that point. Storm clouds are grey by default (assumed state) *'She looked out of the (open) window at the mountains, their peaks shrouded in storm clouds.'* *2/* '... started spraying the city with almost frozen droplets.' That's a tad complicated and an overwritten way of describing rain, although perhaps you were thinking of 'sleet'? I'm not certain. Lightening would 'crackle' but 'thunder' would 'crack'. 'Almost' is one of those words you want to get rid of if possible. Be definite.* 'Thunder cracked and sleet lashed the city.' 3/ *This is where you've got to be careful with POV. She's looking and so it's her POV. If she can see detail like 'almost frozen' then she can certainly know it's sleet. This line can be removed too, unless you remove the description and simply put 'Thunder cracked'. That's up to you but I'd personally leave it as it is because I don't think this line adds anything of importance. *4/* I'd establish the window was 'half open' in the previous window sentence in order to avoid suddenly adding in extra detail. You've already established an image of a window, which is locked in the readers head, and now you're adjusting that image a few sentences later. You've introduced that because you want to justify the breeze getting in. In all honesty though, I'd question the logistics of this paragraph. I feel as if the way it's constructed is creating problems for you which are responsible for adding detail to try and cover up that logistic problem. It's a difficult one to explain because it's a much broader problem. A paragraph is a snapshot. You've written something down and thought 'I need to establish this because I've written this' and then after continuing thought 'and I need to establish this too now' and so forth. That's leading you to add detail in awkward ways. Because of that it's not flowing, it's juddering.* 'Flames in the fireplace skittered as an icy gust blew in through the open window' 5/* If she 'huddled' how does she close the window? *'She closed the window and huddled'.* *6/* 'The clouds started hovering' 'hovering' isn't a word I'd use for clouds and what were they doing before they 'hovered'? *'The clouds thickened and spread over the city like a duvet'* I'd reconsider 'duvet' too. That's a quite comfy image' *7/* The windows shut, it's sleeting and blowing a gale but the thing that kept her awake was 'drips'? Wouldn't it be the window rattling? Perhaps sleet lashing against the pane?


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## NajaNoir

This is a 3rd pov short story. However, I feel that the intro paragraph is confusing. It's confusing me, as I've stared at it so long, the words have begun to lose their meaning.  Is it right? Fixable?

"In Idyll, they are at a time of peace. The occasional machine malfunction leads to the sporadic throwing of a Molotov cocktail, but it was no longer enough to entice either side to a full-blown war. There was no point to it. Humans had given them purpose. In turn, the Seven had become a vital part of human existence, willing to aid them in life and guide them into death, whenever the need arose. Don't misunderstand, it was not a love-thy-neighbor just for the sake of it refuge, love has no business there."

I want it to show that there is still slight unrest, but it never leads to outright war between the robots and the humans. The humans realize, such a thing would be futile.
Help...please and thank you.


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## Taylor

Sounds interesting!  Everything is fixable. Just a few thoughts:


NajaNoir said:


> "In Idyll, they are at a time of peace.  (replace "they' with who they are.)The occasional machine malfunction leads to the sporadic throwing of a Molotov cocktail, but it was no longer enough to entice either side (add the two sides in here for example, "the As and the Bs.") to a full-blown war. There was no point to it. Humans had given them (again who are they?) purpose. In turn, the Seven (the seven what?) had become a vital part of human existence, willing to aid them in life and guide them into death, whenever the need arose. Don't misunderstand, it was not a love-thy-neighbor just for the sake of it refuge, (I wasn't misunderstanding in that way...it never occurred to me.  So what is it?) Love has had no business there."  (I like this as the final sentence.)
> 
> I want it to show that there is still slight unrest, but it never leads to outright war between the robots and the humans. The humans realize, such a thing would be futile.
> Help...please and thank you.



A great conceptual start!  I wasn't sure about your tenses. I think in your mind the events you describe are very clear, but I suggest, make it clearer to the reader.  Just build it out a bit more.


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## NajaNoir

Taylor said:


> Sounds interesting!  Everything is fixable. Just a few thoughts:
> 
> 
> A great conceptual start!  I wasn't sure about your tenses. I think in your mind the events you describe are very clear, but I suggest, make it clearer to the reader.  Just build it out a bit more.


Thank you so much for replying.  

It hadn't occurred to me how others might read that line about misunderstanding. Made me laugh. I think I'll take that part out completely. 

I'll get to fixing it up asap.  
Thanks again.


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## VRanger

The only note of Taylor's I'd offer counterpoint to is "the Seven what". The story gets to that explanation soon enough, and it's common for a story to project a concept in mystery, then come back to it. And as I mentioned before, I'd rework a couple of those early "was'es". ;-)

But all we're really talking about here is potential polish. This opening is not something I'd considered "flawed", where I'd look at it and see the need for an overhaul. Would an editor at a publication outlet have the same view I just expressed? I honestly don't know, plus even their opinions vary from one to another. But that's a good reason to spice and polish things up. It's that air of mystery which confounds all writers. LOL As a reader, I stayed interested, and as a copy editor, I'd only be redlining the average number of things for an early draft.


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## NajaNoir

vranger said:


> The only note of Taylor's I'd offer counterpoint to is "the Seven what". The story gets to that explanation soon enough, and it's common for a story to project a concept in mystery, then come back to it. And as I mentioned before, I'd rework a couple of those early "was'es". ;-)
> 
> But all we're really talking about here is potential polish. This opening is not something I'd considered "flawed", where I'd look at it and see the need for an overhaul. Would an editor at a publication outlet have the same view I just expressed? I honestly don't know, plus even their opinions vary from one to another. But that's a good reason to spice and polish things up. It's that air of mystery which confounds all writers. LOL As a reader, I stayed interested, and as a copy editor, I'd only be redlining the average number of things for an early draft.


 

I think that's what I'll do. The Seven, stays as is, but the rest, I will work with after I get home tonight. I did get rid of several was'es, though not all. I took out a few extra sentences and that got rid of three right away. 

Thanks again, this is much appreciated.


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## Llyralen

NajaNoir said:


> This is a 3rd pov short story. However, I feel that the intro paragraph is confusing. It's confusing me, as I've stared at it so long, the words have begun to lose their meaning.  Is it right? Fixable?
> 
> "In Idyll, they are at a time of peace. The occasional machine malfunction leads to the sporadic throwing of a Molotov cocktail, but it was no longer enough to entice either side to a full-blown war. There was no point to it. Humans had given them purpose. In turn, the Seven had become a vital part of human existence, willing to aid them in life and guide them into death, whenever the need arose. Don't misunderstand, it was not a love-thy-neighbor just for the sake of it refuge, love has no business there."
> 
> I want it to show that there is still slight unrest, but it never leads to outright war between the robots and the humans. The humans realize, such a thing would be futile.
> Help...please and thank you.



My thought is to put this into your MC’s voice— 3rd person limited is what I’m suggesting.  I don’t know how far along in your book you are, though.  I think most people get more interested if we experience the story through a characters eyes.

Experiencing through the narrator’s eyes is sometimes okay— it always seems a bit sterile for me personally as a narrator is never in danger or much affected, but sometimes it can make it funny or give flavor.  In this case, I’d love to have the info coming from the main character rather than an info dump.  This info has a lot of unexplained things, and I recommend you show all this instead with a scene.

I personally don’t mind it when narrators/characters “break the fourth wall” and speak directly to the reader.  Some great authors do it as a specific device, but I find it jars some people. I like to be jarred a bit in this way.  I enjoy the interaction. I would have thought “Okay, I am personally told to not confuse guidance by the Seven with benevolence/love.”  Because of the warning, the message that the Seven are ominous is the main thing I took away.


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## NajaNoir

Llyralen said:


> My thought is to put this into your MC’s voice— 3rd person limited is what I’m suggesting.  I don’t know how far along in your book you are, though.  I think most people get more interested if we experience the story through someone else’s eyes.
> 
> Experiencing through the narrator’s eyes is sometimes okay— it always seems a bit sterile for me personally, but sometimes it can make it funny or give flavor.  In this case, I’d love to have the info coming from th main character rather than a info dump.
> 
> I personally don’t mind it when narrators/characters “break the fourth wall” and speak directly to the reader.  Some great authors do it as a specific device, but I find it jars some people. I like to be jarred a bit in this way.  I enjoy the interaction.


Interesting thoughts.  I'll keep them in mind.

Edit:  I had actually done that.  At the very end of the story, I addressed the reader, but took it out for fear of confusing them.

Thank you.


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## Llyralen

NajaNoir said:


> Interesting thoughts.  I'll keep them in mind.
> 
> Thank you.


I edited to explain my thoughts better and clean up typos. You were quick. .  Good luck on this.


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## Kent_Jacobs

NajaNoir said:


> This is a 3rd pov short story. However, I feel that the intro paragraph is confusing. It's confusing me, as I've stared at it so long, the words have begun to lose their meaning.  Is it right? Fixable?
> 
> "In Idyll, they are at a time of peace. *1/ *The occasional machine malfunction leads to the sporadic throwing of a Molotov cocktail, but it was no longer enough to entice either side to a full-blown war. There was no point to it. Humans had given them purpose. In turn, the Seven had become a vital part of human existence, willing to aid them in life and guide them into death, *2/* whenever the need arose. Don't misunderstand, it was not a love-thy-neighbor just for the sake of it *3/* refuge, love has no business there."



*1/* You don't need 'sporadic' there. It's the 'occasional malfunctions' that leads to the throwing of Molotovs, and so we know the throwing of them is 'occasional' (sporadic), unless you mean throwing Molotovs in no particular direction. I'd question that if it is what you meant. No matter how many Molotovs are thrown, each will have a target. That 'was' bothers me. As they always do: *'The occasional machine malfunction leads to the throwing of Molotov cocktails, but no longer enough to entice either side to a full-blown war'* A couple of other things: I'm assuming 'machines' have been mentioned and specified quite heavily because you're placing significance on them, so is 'machine' actually needed? What else other than a machine 'malfunctions'? The word 'entice' leaps out at me. It's a teasy word and not something I'd associate with creating tension that leads to war. '... either side' consider that for a moment. If there was a war then both sides would be participating. If you say 'war' alone then the assumed state is 'full blown'. The only time it would need modifying is if it wasn't the assumed state. *2/* is this needed? 'Death' is powerful sentence ender and it's a shame to water it down. *3/* is 'refuge' the wrong word there? 'for the sake of it refuge'? 

I'm not sure it does fully express what you intended though. I feel it needs more clarity and stronger words. 'love-thy-neighbour' for instance is soft as is 'entice'. 



NajaNoir said:


> I want it to show that there is still slight unrest, but it never leads to outright war between the robots and the humans. The humans realize, such a thing would be futile.
> Help...please and thank you.


----------



## NajaNoir

TheMightyAz said:


> *1/* You don't need 'sporadic' there. It's the 'occasional malfunctions' that leads to the throwing of Molotovs, and so we know the throwing of them is 'occasional' (sporadic), unless you mean throwing Molotovs in no particular direction. I'd question that if it is what you meant. No matter how many Molotovs are thrown, each will have a target. That 'was' bothers me. As they always do: *'The occasional machine malfunction leads to the throwing of Molotov cocktails, but no longer enough to entice either side to a full-blown war'* A couple of other things: I'm assuming 'machines' have been mentioned and specified quite heavily because you're placing significance on them, so is 'machine' actually needed? What else other than a machine 'malfunctions'? The word 'entice' leaps out at me. It's a teasy word and not something I'd associate with creating tension that leads to war. '... either side' consider that for a moment. If there was a war then both sides would be participating. If you say 'war' alone then the assumed state is 'full blown'. The only time it would need modifying is if it wasn't the assumed state. *2/* is this needed? 'Death' is powerful sentence ender and it's a shame to water it down. *3/* is 'refuge' the wrong word there? 'for the sake of it refuge'?
> 
> I'm not sure it does fully express what you intended though. I feel it needs more clarity and stronger words. 'love-thy-neighbour' for instance is soft as is 'entice'.


Thank you for all of that.  
Much appreciated.


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## NajaNoir

Is this better?

"In Idyll, they are at a time of truce. The occasional malfunction leads to the throwing of Molotov cocktails, but no longer enough to guide either man or machine into war. There was no point to it. Humans had given them purpose. In turn, the Seven had become a vital part of human existence, willing to aid them in life and usher them into death. Even so, it was not a love-thy-neighbor for the sake of it refuge. Love had no business there."

I left they because the next few sentences show who "they" are. I like love-thy-neighbor, because, I mention later on in the story that some of the AI have their own apartments and are, therefore, neighbors to the humans. I couldn't find a suitable replacement for refuge.


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## Kent_Jacobs

NajaNoir said:


> Is this better?
> 
> "In Idyll, they are at a time of truce. The occasional malfunction leads to the throwing of Molotov cocktails, but no longer enough to guide either man or machine into war. There was no point to it. Humans had given them purpose. In turn, the Seven had become a vital part of human existence, willing to aid them in life and usher them into death. Even so, it was not a love-thy-neighbor for the sake of it refuge. Love had no business there."
> 
> I left they because the next few sentences show who "they" are. I like love-thy-neighbor, because, I mention later on in the story that some of the AI have their own apartments and are, therefore, neighbors to the humans. I couldn't find a suitable replacement for refuge.


This is narrative, right? Those last two lines and the quote marks keeps throwing me out. It's not speech is it? This is one of the reasons I use a different font even in the snippets thread. I'm assuming you're American because in Britain, two strokes is speech and one stroke is a quote. I 'think' you're adding quotes because it's a snippet ... yes? Just remove them to stop confusion if it's not speech and either italicise it or use a different font. 

Is there a third party involved or are you referring to war between the humans and the machines? When you differentiate by saying 'either man or machine into war', I don't get the impression it's between the two camps. Neither would have a choice if one went to war with the other. Only if there was a third party would that make sense. You can say 'neither side wanted war' but you can't say one side went to war and the other didn't. 

'guide' isn't the right word. It's a friendly word and not a word I'd take to mean a catalyst for war. This is actually quite difficult to adjust with the current framing. I'd have to approach it in a different way to clarify things. You can frame it slightly differently and reintroduce 'all-out'. You've used 'them' so I assume you've mentioned the robots before? 'usher' sounds like 'intent' in this context, giving it a chilling undertone. Is that deliberate? I'm not sure it is. I still don't know what 'for the sake of it refuge' means. The tense is present tense I'm assuming, so that's throwing me out slightly too. 'they are at a time of truce' puts me in present tense. 

_In Idyll, they are at a time of truce. The occasional malfunction has lead to the throwing of Molotov cocktails, but neither side wants all-out war. There was no point in it. Humans have given them (or '*the robots'*) purpose. In turn, the Seven have become a vital part of human existence, willing to aid them in life or ease their suffering in death. Even so, it was not 'love-thy-neighbor' for its own sake. Love has no business here._


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## NajaNoir

TheMightyAz said:


> This is narrative, right? Those last two lines and the quote marks keeps throwing me out. It's not speech is it? This is one of the reasons I use a different font even in the snippets thread. I'm assuming you're American because in Britain, two strokes is speech and one stroke is a quote. I 'think' you're adding quotes because it's a snippet ... yes? Just remove them to stop confusion if it's not speech and either italicise it or use a different font.
> 
> Is there a third party involved or are you referring to war between the humans and the machines? When you differentiate by saying 'either man or machine into war', I don't get the impression it's between the two camps. Neither would have a choice if one went to war with the other. Only if there was a third party would that make sense. You can say 'neither side wanted war' but you can't say one side went to war and the other didn't.
> 
> 'guide' isn't the right word. It's a friendly word and not a word I'd take to mean a catalyst for war. This is actually quite difficult to adjust with the current framing. I'd have to approach it in a different way to clarify things. You can frame it slightly differently and reintroduce 'all-out'. You've used 'them' so I assume you've mentioned the robots before? 'usher' sounds like 'intent' in this context, giving it a chilling undertone. Is that deliberate? I'm not sure it is. I still don't know what 'for the sake of it refuge' means. The tense is present tense I'm assuming, so that's throwing me out slightly too. 'they are at a time of truce' puts me in present tense.
> 
> _In Idyll, they are at a time of truce. The occasional malfunction has lead to the throwing of Molotov cocktails, but neither side wants all-out war. There was no point in it. Humans have given them (or '*the robots'*) purpose. In turn, the Seven have become a vital part of human existence, willing to aid them in life or ease their suffering in death. Even so, it was not 'love-thy-neighbor' for its own sake. Love has no business here._



"are" should have been a "were,"  my bad. I think it is because the "leads" isn't "led" and spell check keeps having me fix it.  This shows how hazardous  it is to stare at the same few sentences so long, that they become word soup.  

Usher was deliberate and guide is easy enough to change.  

Thank you again for the help. Much appreciated.


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## CatOfNoir

Can someone look at this and see if it's okay? I do want to preface by saying this scene is right after her sickly dying mother told her a tale about there being a lake that functions as a panacea, effectively healing the illness of anyone that drinks or bathes in its waters.

Still, I couldn’t give up hope not like all the others had. I bolted from the tent into the underbrush of the forest. I ran to find the lake that would cure mother’s illness, ran to escape the thoughts that told me it was all pointless. I wasn’t like the traitors of our village, nor my father that abandoned his wife and child for another woman. The anger in my chest was a raging fireball that wanted to consume everything. I ran until I was out of breath and the despair slammed into me all at once. The cruelty of the world blinded me all at once. But a woman’s voice reached through the void. She was garbed in a golden robe tasseled with various ornaments, silky white waves obscured her slender face and glistened in the moonlight.


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## Kent_Jacobs

CatOfNoir said:


> *1/ *Still, I couldn’t give up hope not like all the others had. *2/* I bolted from the tent into the underbrush of the forest. *3/* I ran to find the lake that would cure mother’s illness, ran to escape the thoughts that told me it was all pointless. I wasn’t like the traitors of our village, nor my father that *who* abandoned his wife and child for another woman. *4/* The anger in my chest was a raging fireball that wanted to consume everything. *5/* I ran until I was out of breath and the despair slammed into me all at once. *6/* The cruelty of the world blinded me all at once. *7/* But a woman’s voice reached through the void. She was garbed in a golden robe tasseled with various ornaments, silky white waves obscured her slender face and glistened in the moonlight.


*1/* Bit of a double negative here. Get rid of 'not'. If for some reason you want to keep it, then there needs to be a comma after 'hope'. *2/* This is a little bit awkward. 'of the forest' feels bolted on. Does it need to be 'underbrush'? Those are shrubs and small trees, and the purpose of this sentence is just to show he went into the forest. You could add in more detail such as *'I bolted from the tent into the cover of the forest'* but I still don't really see any need to show secrecy here so *'I bolted from the tent into the forest'* is all that's needed. *3/* You've started three sentences with 'I' which makes it feel repetitive. I find 2 is acceptable without that worry, so *'I bolted from the tent into the forest, ran to find the lake that would cure mother's illness, ran to escape the thoughts that told me it was all pointless.' *I'd consider changing the last comma to a semicolon or an emdash. You could accept a fragment too and go with a full stop but I'd personally not go for that. I see no reason to add gravitas to the flow. He's sprinting and so the sentence feels right with a semicolon I think. It's breathier than an emdash. *4/* I can see what you're going for here but I don't think it knits together well. Can anger be in your chest? Why a fireball? That throws up a definite image of something round and flaming. Something like: *'Anger lit a raging fire in my chest that wanted to consume everything'* perhaps. *5/* You don't need 'all at once'. You've used 'slammed' which conveys suddenly without the need to qualify that moment. *'I ran until I was out of breath and despair slammed into me'. 6/ *This is the second sentence you've ended with 'all at once'. 'Suddenly' is a word to avoid at all cost unless it's completely necessary. The abruptness of the description itself shows suddenness. What do you mean by 'blinded' though? Not literally of course, but in what sense is he blinded and to what? I think 'despair' covers it in the previous sentence. I'd think about losing it. *7/* You've used 'but' here and whilst there's isn't anything wrong (nowadays) with using 'but' at the start of the sentence, it calls out to be linked to the earlier sentence:* 'I ran until I was out of breath and despair slammed into me, but a woman's voice reached out through the void'. *


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## Deleted member 66445

I am really enjoying reading this stuff and learning to critique. I am a new writer and the lack of knowledge of writing mechanics, grammar and such have prompted me to delve more into writing through online classes, I mean, the last formal education on writing that I had was ...three decades ago...it's a slow process. This snippet is where my MC has her druidic gifts awakened by one of her patients. 

As the flood of knowledge and the knowing poured into her, hitherto invisible walls came down and Saoirse’s entire being was suffused with warmth and light. Whispers and chants thrummed deep in her core. As she absorbed the lessons they were teaching, her spirit soared, traveling amongst the stars. She smelled fresh cut grass, cedar and rain. The flavors of chocolate and scones brought back memories of the afternoon tea ritual that shared with Gran. She saw her, even though she was long since dead, but now appeared young, full of energy and life. She whispered in Gaelic, exactly she did so many years ago _“You have a gift, child, but you won’t come into your full power till well after I’m gone. It is there, tucked in a corner of your heart until such time as you are ready for it. Take it and embrace it for it will lead you to your greatest happiness.”     _


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## Kent_Jacobs

MommaKat said:


> *1/ *As the flood of knowledge and the knowing poured into her, hitherto invisible walls came down and Saoirse’s entire being was suffused with warmth and light. Whispers and chants thrummed deep in her core. *2/* As she absorbed the lessons they were teaching, her spirit soared, traveling amongst the stars. *3/* She smelled fresh cut grass, cedar and rain. The flavors of chocolate and scones brought back memories of the afternoon tea ritual that shared with Gran. *4/* She saw her, even though she was long since dead, but now appeared young, full of energy and life.


Separate paragraph. Be careful when you have two characters that are female. It can lead to confusion:


MommaKat said:


> She Her Gran whispered in Gaelic, exactly *as* she did so many years ago _“You have a gift, child, but you won’t come into your full power till well after I’m gone. It is there, tucked in a corner of your heart until such time as you are ready for it. Take it and embrace it for it will lead you to your greatest happiness.”     _


*1/* Think about the essence of this sentence and what you want to convey. Ask yourself what can be removed without changing that essence. 'Knowledge' and 'knowing' are more or less the same and so I'd lose 'knowing'. 'Hitherto' injects a slight tonal conflict here. It's a grand word to be associated with 'came down'. If the walls came down then of course the walls were there prior to that and so 'hitherto' isn't required. We're talking bricks here so I'd want to continue that metaphor by using a word associated with bricks. 'Crumbled' comes to mind. You don't need to be specific because you've associated the walls falling with Saoirse which makes 'entire being' unnecessary. If it was in some way relevant then 'entire' wouldn't be needed because 'being' covers the whole of Saoirse. It's not going to suffuse only her leg!  *'knowledge flooded her, invisible walls crumbled, and Saoirse was suffused by warmth and light.' *I've taken a little more liberty with the structure here than I normally would because (if you can) try to start and finish a sentence on a strong word. Don't kill yourself if you can't though. This offered up an easy opportunity. You could get rid of that flimsy 'was' too: *'Knowledge flooded her, invisible walls crumbled, and suffused Saoirse with warmth and light.' *I'm not saying change the sentence to what I've suggested (although you can if you want), I'm merely offering things to think about. *2/* Lessons are by their very nature 'taught', making 'they were teaching' redundant: *'As she absorbed the lessons, her spirits soared, travelling amongst the stars'.* *3/* This is the sort of sentence I'd think about a lot. When we talk about the smell of 'cut grass', the idea it evokes is universally understood, whether it's referenced as fresh or not. However, I'd want to strengthen the image a little by highlighting the grass in a slightly different way:* 'She smelled freshly cut grass, cedar and rain'*. This shifts the emphasis from the state of the grass to when the grass was cut, which is more important. But that still bothers me slightly in that the word 'cut' is also acting upon cedar and rain. This is easily solved: *'She smelled cedar, rain and freshly cut grass'.* *4/* The way this sentence is structured makes 'but now appeared young' feel like an afterthought. *'Even though she was long since dead, Saoirse saw her, young, filled with energy and life' *


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## Deleted member 66445

TheMightyAz said:


> Separate paragraph. Be careful when you have two characters that are female. It can lead to confusion:
> 
> *1/* Think about the essence of this sentence and what you want to convey. Ask yourself what can be removed without changing that essence. 'Knowledge' and 'knowing' are more or less the same and so I'd lose 'knowing'. 'Hitherto' injects a slight tonal conflict here. It's a grand word to be associated with 'came down'. If the walls came down then of course the walls were there prior to that and so 'hitherto' isn't required. We're talking bricks here so I'd want to continue that metaphor by using a word associated with bricks. 'Crumbled' comes to mind. You don't need to be specific because you've associated the walls falling with Saoirse which makes 'entire being' unnecessary. If it was in some way relevant then 'entire' wouldn't be needed because 'being' covers the whole of Saoirse. It's not going to suffuse only her leg!  *'knowledge flooded her, invisible walls crumbled, and Saoirse was suffused by warmth and light.' *I've taken a little more liberty with the structure here than I normally would because (if you can) try to start and finish a sentence on a strong word. Don't kill yourself if you can't though. This offered up an easy opportunity. You could get rid of that flimsy 'was' too: *'Knowledge flooded her, invisible walls crumbled, and suffused Saoirse with warmth and light.' *I'm not saying change the sentence to what I've suggested (although you can if you want), I'm merely offering things to think about. *2/* Lessons are by their very nature 'taught', making 'they were teaching' redundant: *'As she absorbed the lessons, her spirits soared, travelling amongst the stars'.* *3/* This is the sort of sentence I'd think about a lot. When we talk about the smell of 'cut grass', the idea it evokes is universally understood, whether it's referenced as fresh or not. However, I'd want to strengthen the image a little by highlighting the grass in a slightly different way:* 'She smelled freshly cut grass, cedar and rain'*. This shifts the emphasis from the state of the grass to when the grass was cut, which is more important. But that still bothers me slightly in that the word 'cut' is also acting upon cedar and rain. This is easily solved: *'She smelled cedar, rain and freshly cut grass'.* *4/* The way this sentence is structured makes 'but now appeared young' feel like an afterthought. *'Even though she was long since dead, Saoirse saw her, young, filled with energy and life' *


Thank you so much for your input.  The "knowing" stuff I wanted to portray on two different levels, this is a druidic gift we are talking about, so knowing how to use her gifts on one level and the _knowing_ druidic energy deep in the soul. Does that make any sense? I'm at a loss for a different way to convey the difference
These changes you have pointed out will help me so much in later edits, when I start looking more in-depth at phrasing and word sequencing.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

MommaKat said:


> Thank you so much for your input.  The "knowing" stuff I wanted to portray on two different levels, this is a druidic gift we are talking about, so knowing how to use her gifts on one level and the _knowing_ druidic energy deep in the soul. Does that make any sense? I'm at a loss for a different way to convey the difference
> These changes you have pointed out will help me so much in later edits, when I start looking more in-depth at phrasing and word sequencing.


You mean 'knowing' as in esoteric knowledge? If so, I'd go with only that word instead of the word I suggested.


----------



## Llyralen

MommaKat said:


> I am really enjoying reading this stuff and learning to critique. I am a new writer and the lack of knowledge of writing mechanics, grammar and such have prompted me to delve more into writing through online classes, I mean, the last formal education on writing that I had was ...three decades ago...it's a slow process. This snippet is where my MC has her druidic gifts awakened by one of her patients.
> 
> As the flood of knowledge and the knowing poured into her, hitherto invisible walls came down and Saoirse’s entire being was suffused with warmth and light. Whispers and chants thrummed deep in her core. As she absorbed the lessons they were teaching, her spirit soared, traveling amongst the stars. She smelled fresh cut grass, cedar and rain. The flavors of chocolate and scones brought back memories of the afternoon tea ritual that she shared with Gran. Saoirse saw Gran, even though she was long since dead, but now appeared young, full of energy and life. Gran whispered in Gaelic, exactly as she did so many years ago _“You have a gift, child, but you won’t come into your full power till well after I’m gone. It is there, tucked in a corner of your heart until such time as you are ready for it. Take it and embrace it for it will lead you to your greatest happiness.”     _


I love stories like this. I'm working on a sorceress in the Viking Age, myself. Have you read _The Swan Maiden_ by Jules Watson, by the way?  It's the story of Deirdre of the Sorrows. Your story much be modern with chocolate and scones, but Deirdre gets trained by a druid in it and it has passages that remind me of this one. I recommend it.

I like what you've written pretty much as is, except for the ticky changes I added above. I'm imagining that you describe the outside "the knowledge" and inside "the knowing" before this paragraph so that at least a hint of a distinction is already in place, although I would be swept along even if you didn't first make a distinction.  
Anything that you learn in your studies would probably be a great conversation here. You're on equal footing, and welcome!


----------



## VRanger

CatOfNoir said:


> Can someone look at this and see if it's okay? I do want to preface by saying this scene is right after her sickly dying mother told her a tale about there being a lake that functions as a panacea, effectively healing the illness of anyone that drinks or bathes in its waters.
> 
> Still, I couldn’t give up hope not like all the others had. I bolted from the tent into the underbrush of the forest. I ran to find the lake that would cure mother’s illness, ran to escape the thoughts that told me it was all pointless. I wasn’t like the traitors of our village, nor my father that abandoned his wife and child for another woman. The anger in my chest was a raging fireball that wanted to consume everything. I ran until I was out of breath and the despair slammed into me all at once. The cruelty of the world blinded me all at once. But a woman’s voice reached through the void. She was garbed in a golden robe tasseled with various ornaments, silky white waves obscured her slender face and glistened in the moonlight.


Pretty nice. You want to avoid saying "all at once" twice, and I think "raging fireball" is a bit of hyperbole. Other than a couple of punctuation issues (missing comma in the first sentence after "hope", and the last sentence needs to be two sentences), I quite liked it.


----------



## Llyralen

CatOfNoir said:


> Can someone look at this and see if it's okay? I do want to preface by saying this scene is right after her sickly dying mother told her a tale about there being a lake that functions as a panacea, effectively healing the illness of anyone that drinks or bathes in its waters.
> 
> Still, I couldn’t give up hope not like all the others had. I bolted from the tent into the underbrush of the forest. I ran to find the lake that would cure mother’s illness, ran to escape the thoughts that told me it was all pointless. I wasn’t like the traitors of our village, nor my father that abandoned his wife and child for another woman. The anger in my chest was a raging fireball that wanted to consume everything. I ran until I was out of breath and the despair slammed into me all at once. The cruelty of the world blinded me all at once. But a woman’s voice reached through the void. She was garbed in a golden robe tasseled with various ornaments, silky white waves obscured her slender face and glistened in the moonlight.


I like it. I like the intensity and the outpouring of thought during running.  I would take out the first '"all at once" and end that sentence with "slammed into me". Then you can keep "blinded me all at once". 

The one thing I don't like is the transition from "voice through the void" to a physical description. What void? Is the MC running through a void? Where is this woman? In the MC's mind? Appearing through something physical called a void? Or something mental called a void? There didn't seem to be any voids between this person's thoughts, but white waves are glistening in the moonlight.  What is going on?  We might need an extra few sentences to help us out.


----------



## Deleted member 66445

*1/*Still, I couldn’t give up hope not like all the others had. *2/* I bolted from the tent into the underbrush of the forest. I ran to find the lake that would cure mother’s illness, ran to escape the thoughts that told me it was all pointless. I wasn’t like the traitors of our village, *3/*nor my father that abandoned his wife and child for another woman. The anger in my chest was a raging fireball that wanted to consume everything. I ran until I was out of breath and the despair slammed into *4/* me all at once. The cruelty of the world blinded me all at once. But a woman’s voice* 5/* reached through the void. She was garbed in a golden robe*6/* tasseled with various ornaments, silky white waves obscured her slender face and glistened in the moonlight.        

(I couldn't decide how I was going to edit here, so sorry)
1/ double negative here.  "I couldn't give up hope, everyone else had, but not me"
2/ can you begin the sentence with something other than "I" "Bolting from the tent into the underbrush, I sought the lake that would cure Mother's illness
3/ "I wasn't my father, who ...
@VRanger mentioned the raging fireball in the chest, I might say something like the overwhelming anger spurred me to run until I was out of breath,
4/...despair washed over...
5/ this sounds awkward to me, the sound of a woman's voice came to me from the void
6/ I don't think of tasseled as a verb. Her clothing was adorned?

I like this, it has a lot of promise. I think my main quibbles have to do with word usage, and how things flow when they are being read.
Good start!


----------



## alpacinoutd

I have written a few sentences, about which I'm not sure. I'd appreciate your comments. These are not related:

1. Jane had inherited her father's disloyal heart. Sense of belonging was an unfamiliar feeling to her. She felt little affinity for her family, for her hometown for her marriage. It was a matter of time before she'd cheat on her partner. Those things came easily to her.

2. A sense of melancholy and uncertainty had been woven into the fabric of her existence. 

3. Jack's existence was laced with uncertainty and guilt. 

4. She never felt whole after her mother's death. A sense of loss had been buried inside her and it would whip up each time she thought of her mother. 

5. The car kicked into high gear as they entered the highway at the beginning of Las Vegas. The city shimmered through a dusty haze.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> I have written a few sentences, about which I'm not sure. I'd appreciate your comments. These are not related:
> 
> 1. Jane had inherited her father's disloyal heart. *1/* Sense of belonging was an unfamiliar feeling to her. *2/* She felt little affinity for her family, for her hometown for her marriage. *3/* It was a matter of time before she'd cheat on her partner. Those things came easily to her.



*1/ *I can see you've been as economical with your prose as possible, and that's good, but the second sentence takes it a little too far. In this case you've used 'sense of belonging' as a phrase and so it does actually make grammatical sense but it still feels and reads slightly awkwardly. 'A sense of belonging ...' removes that awkwardness. *2/* Nice and economical again and reads strongly because of it. The punctuation could do with adjusting though: *'She felt little affinity for her family, for her hometown, for her marriage.' 3/ *Again, there isn't anything grammatically wrong here but the phrase 'matter of time' is usually written 'only a matter of time'. Without the 'only' it looks and feels incomplete. 



alpacinoutd said:


> 2. A sense of melancholy and uncertainty had been woven into the fabric of her existence.



Do you need 'A sense of'? How different is it from actual melancholy and uncertainty? I'd lose it. Be definite about things when you can. It lends it more impact.



alpacinoutd said:


> 3. Jack's existence was laced with uncertainty and guilt.



This is an interesting one. In the previous example of 'existence' you've used 'woven' and 'fabric' which knit that together well, but here you have 'laced' sitting there all by itself. It's kinda crying out for a supporting word but there isn't really room for one. I'd think of another word other than 'laced'. Not that you need to worry about that all the time. It's just that here for some reason that 'laced' looks slightly misplaced. Now, if he was a drunk, maybe it would fit in the full context of a paragraph. 



alpacinoutd said:


> 4. She never felt whole after her mother's death. A sense of loss had been buried inside her and it would whip up each time she thought of her mother.



I'm not keen on 'whip up'. It doesn't quite hit the mark. Think about the movement of those words. 'Loss' would be within her and thinking about her mother would move that loss outwards to the surface. 'bubble up' is nearer the mark but still not good enough. There's that 'A sense of' again too. 



alpacinoutd said:


> 5. The car kicked into high gear as they entered the highway at the beginning of Las Vegas. The city shimmered through a dusty haze.


What do you mean by 'at the beginning of Las Vegas'? You mean they're entering Las Vegas, right? *'The car kicked into high gear as they entered the highway into Las Vegas.'*


----------



## Matchu

_Versions of the same thing _

1.Jane inherited Father's disloyal heart - _belonging_ - the unfamiliar sensation. No affinity for family, for hometown, for her marriage. A matter of time before she cheated on the 'partner.' Betrayal came easy.

2. Melancholy, uncertainty - woven into the fabric of her existence.

3. Jack's existence laced with uncertainty and guilt.

4. She never felt whole after her mother's death, loss thumped inside her chest.  It whipped, it cracked each time she thought of Mother.

5. The car kicked into high gear., they entered the strip. Las Vegas, a city that shimmered through the haze.


----------



## VRanger

alpacinoutd said:


> I have written a few sentences, about which I'm not sure. I'd appreciate your comments. These are not related:
> 
> 1. Jane had inherited her father's disloyal heart. Sense of belonging was an unfamiliar feeling to her. She felt little affinity for her family, for her hometown for her marriage. It was a matter of time before she'd cheat on her partner. Those things came easily to her.
> 
> 2. A sense of melancholy and uncertainty had been woven into the fabric of her existence.
> 
> 3. Jack's existence was laced with uncertainty and guilt.
> 
> 4. She never felt whole after her mother's death. A sense of loss had been buried inside her and it would whip up each time she thought of her mother.
> 
> 5. The car kicked into high gear as they entered the highway at the beginning of Las Vegas. The city shimmered through a dusty haze.


In addition to Az's notes, in sentence one there is no need for "had inheritied". Both are past tense, and "had inheritied" just puts the past tense further in the past, but in this case, it doesn't seem to have a reason to do that, so "had" becomes a filler word.


----------



## KeganThompson

Why hello, it's been a while since I posted.  ..yes I'm still drafting
Been working on small edits. but nothing too major atm. I was wondering what your thoughts were on this paragraph:

_When Ami turned to face me, light peeking from between the blinds walked across her sight. If only for a moment, the beam brought out the specks of green in her hazel eyes. Blinded, she squinted and tilted her head to avoid a direct hit._

I have messed with it a lot...but it still feels awkward. There are certain things I try to write buuut it always seems to come out wrong somehow
I feel there is some potential here, just not quite there yet. mmhh 

thoughts?


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> _When Ami turned to face me, light peeking from between the blinds walked across her sight. If only for a moment, the beam brought out the specks of green in her hazel eyes. Blinded, she squinted and tilted her head to avoid a direct hit._
> 
> There _is_ potential here. It's good stuff. The first sentence is damned good. You've mentioned 'between the blinds' and 'across her sight', which means there's more than one beam and it's moving. The only thing I'd change about the second sentence is 'a beam'. I've always said to start a sentence and end a sentence on a strong word (if you can). Here though, the harsh and direct 'blinded' is too much and could be construed too literally as you pass over the sentence. 'Dazzled' would be a better word I think. 'To avoid a direct hit'. The word 'direct' and 'hit' just feel overdone. Do you really need to explain why she turned her head away? I think the image tells us why: *'Dazzled, she squinted and turned her head away.'*


----------



## KeganThompson

Idk how I feel about dazzled...(not that it's a bad word) I always think pretty or impressive instead of blinding. I've always heard it in that context.(probably a regional thing) 

 I see how "direct hit" is too much.
Originally I had "light" again instead of "beam" but light is repetative so I changed it to beam. Got any suggestions for a better/stronger word?
Thx


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> Idk how I feel about dazzled...(not that it's a bad word) I always think pretty or impressive instead of blinding. I've always heard it in that context.(probably a regional thing)
> 
> I see how "direct hit" is too much.
> Originally I had "light" again instead of "beam" but light is repetative so I changed it to beam. Got any suggestions for a better/stronger word?
> Thx



It looks fine to me:

_When Ami turned to face me, light peeking from between the blinds walked across her sight. If only for a moment, a beam brought out the specks of green in her hazel eyes. Dazzled, she squinted and tilted her head away._

Look up 'dazzled'.  maybe you're misconstruing it on accident ...


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> It looks fine to me:


I didn't say it was wrong 


TheMightyAz said:


> _When Ami turned to face me, light peeking from between the blinds walked across her sight. If only for a moment, a beam brought out the specks of green in her hazel eyes. Dazzled, she squinted and tilted her head away._
> 
> Look up 'dazzled'.  maybe you're misconstruing it on accident ...


from Marriam Webster:
Dazzle
*: *to lose clear vision especially from looking at bright light
2a*: *to shine brilliantly… the woods _dazzled_ whitely …— Truman Capote
b*: *to arouse admiration by an impressive display She dazzles in her live concerts.
transitive verb
1*: *to overpower with light was _dazzled_ by the camera flash
*2: to impress deeply, overpower, or confound with brilliance
dazzled us with her wit*
Dictonary.com
verb (used with object), daz·zled, daz·zling.
to overpower or dim the vision of by intense light:He was dazzled by the sudden sunlight.
t*o impress deeply; astonish with delight:The glorious palace dazzled him.
*
I think the example I used may have be more of a 'metaphorical' saying. (could go either way honestly) But when I hear dazzle, I dont think 'blinding' initially. I think its where i'm from and how I've heard it used.  "you look dazzling" might be a better example than "dazzling smile"
idk if you use 'dazzle' in this context in Britain or not.
(like how 'vanity' can mean a 'dressing table' where i'm from LOL)


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

KeganThompson said:


> I didn't say it was wrong
> 
> from Marriam Webster:
> Dazzle
> *: *to lose clear vision especially from looking at bright light
> 2a*: *to shine brilliantly… the woods _dazzled_ whitely …— Truman Capote
> b*: *to arouse admiration by an impressive display She dazzles in her live concerts.
> transitive verb
> 1*: *to overpower with light was _dazzled_ by the camera flash
> *2: to impress deeply, overpower, or confound with brilliance
> dazzled us with her wit*
> Dictonary.com
> verb (used with object), daz·zled, daz·zling.
> to overpower or dim the vision of by intense light:He was dazzled by the sudden sunlight.
> t*o impress deeply; astonish with delight:The glorious palace dazzled him.*
> 
> I think the example I used may have be more of a 'metaphorical' saying. (could go either way honestly) But when I hear dazzle, I dont think 'blinding' initially. I think its where i'm from and how I've heard it used.  "you look dazzling" might be a better example than "dazzling smile"
> idk if you use 'dazzle' in this context in Britain or not.
> (like how 'vanity' can mean a 'dressing table' where i'm from LOL)


We use it as the very first definition in that list.


----------



## KeganThompson

TheMightyAz said:


> We use it as the very first definition in that list.


I think we do too just not as much. Oh... language


----------



## VRanger

KeganThompson said:


> Why hello, it's been a while since I posted.  ..yes I'm still drafting
> Been working on small edits. but nothing too major atm. I was wondering what your thoughts were on this paragraph:
> 
> _When Ami turned to face me, light peeking from between the blinds walked across her sight. If only for a moment, the beam brought out the specks of green in her hazel eyes. Blinded, she squinted and tilted her head to avoid a direct hit._
> 
> I have messed with it a lot...but it still feels awkward. There are certain things I try to write buuut it always seems to come out wrong somehow
> I feel there is some potential here, just not quite there yet. mmhh
> 
> thoughts?


I had a bit of a different take on it. The only suggestion I have is you might lose "if only for a moment" ... if for no other reason than you're starting three straight sentences with comma separated dependent clauses.


----------



## Llyralen

KeganThompson said:


> Why hello, it's been a while since I posted.  ..yes I'm still drafting
> Been working on small edits. but nothing too major atm. I was wondering what your thoughts were on this paragraph:
> 
> _When Ami turned to face me, light peeking from between the blinds walked across her sight. If only for a moment, the beam brought out the specks of green in her hazel eyes. Blinded, she squinted and tilted her head to avoid a direct hit._


The second clause reads awkwardly and I think it also needs clarity, but yes, I like it.  Why is the light walking across her sight unless she is moving?  Or unless the light is a moving car’s headlights— but I’m not getting the idea that this is night?  I’m going to assume that the movement is from Ami turning to face you.  This is the rearrangement that makes sense to me, and it’s minor but clears it up: 

Light (could add something about the noon sun, evening sun, morning light), whatever) _peeked between blinds. As Ami turned to face me, the bars (or stripes) of light walked across her sight. If only for a moment, the beams brought out the specks of green in her hazel eyes. Blinded, she squinted and tilted her head to avoid a direct hit. 

I hope this helps. _


----------



## KeganThompson

VRanger said:


> I had a bit of a different take on it. The only suggestion I have is you might lose "if only for a moment" ... if for no other reason than you're starting three straight sentences with comma separated dependent clauses.


I added 'only for a moment" because she (obviously) moved 'out the way' of the beam rather quickly but, i dont need that and 'avoid direct hit' because thats probably inferred like AZ said. I will work on the paragraphs its 'rhythm' ...might just let it sit for a bit and comes back to it.


----------



## KeganThompson

Llyralen said:


> The second clause reads awkwardly and I think it also needs clarity, but yes, I like it.  Why is the light walking across her sight unless she is moving?  Or unless the light is a moving car’s headlights— but I’m not getting the idea that this is night?  I’m going to assume that the movement is from Ami turning to face you.  This is the rearrangement that makes sense to me, and it’s minor but clears it up:


yes, i understand there is no context to this lol. (this isnt the intro btw) She is sitting at a desk, when she turns to face the MC, (he is standing behind her) the strips of light peeking from the blinds windows hits her in the face. Its summer time and the sun is setting. 
hope that helps 'make it make sense'


Llyralen said:


> Light (could add something about the noon sun, evening sun, morning light), whatever) _peeked between blinds. As Ami turned to face me, the bars (or stripes) of light walked across her sight. If only for a moment, the beams brought out the specks of green in her hazel eyes. Blinded, she squinted and tilted her head to avoid a direct hit. _


I did have 'strips of light' (close to bars/stripes) in my multiple edits of this LOL


Llyralen said:


> _I hope this helps. _


yes, thanks


----------



## Taylor

I like it, but I'm wondering if the personification is troubling you.  Also, not sure you need the "if only", and a moment seems too long here.

_When Ami turned to face me, light peeking from between streamed through the blinds walked across and obscured her sight. If only for a moment, For a second, the beam brought out the specks of green in her hazel eyes. Blinded, s She squinted and tilted her head to avoid a direct hit.  _

Once I added, "obscured", the "blinded" seemed redundant.  And my version speeds up the pace which may not be ideal for your style.

Strong visual here though with the focus on her eye colouring. Nice work!


----------



## Taylor

KeganThompson said:


> I didn't say it was wrong
> 
> from Marriam Webster:
> Dazzle
> *: *to lose clear vision especially from looking at bright light
> 2a*: *to shine brilliantly… the woods _dazzled_ whitely …— Truman Capote
> b*: *to arouse admiration by an impressive display She dazzles in her live concerts.
> transitive verb
> 1*: *to overpower with light was _dazzled_ by the camera flash
> *2: to impress deeply, overpower, or confound with brilliance
> dazzled us with her wit*
> Dictonary.com
> verb (used with object), daz·zled, daz·zling.
> to overpower or dim the vision of by intense light:He was dazzled by the sudden sunlight.
> t*o impress deeply; astonish with delight:The glorious palace dazzled him.*
> 
> I think the example I used may have be more of a 'metaphorical' saying. (could go either way honestly) But when I hear dazzle, I dont think 'blinding' initially. I think its where i'm from and how I've heard it used.  "you look dazzling" might be a better example than "dazzling smile"
> idk if you use 'dazzle' in this context in Britain or not.
> (like how 'vanity' can mean a 'dressing table' where i'm from LOL)


Interesting, I had the same reaction as you to AZ's suggestion.  I've never noticed "dazzled" used to describe the loss of clear vision from light.  When I see dazzled I think immediately of being astonished with delight.  Perhaps it is a North American thing.


----------



## KeganThompson

Taylor said:


> I like it, but I'm wondering if the personification is troubling you.  Also, not sure you need the "if only", and a moment seems too long here.
> 
> _When Ami turned to face me, light peeking from between streamed through the blinds walked across and obscured her sight. If only for a moment, For a second, the beam brought out the specks of green in her hazel eyes. Blinded, s She squinted and tilted her head to avoid a direct hit.  _
> 
> Once I added obscured, the blinded seemed redundant.  And my version, speeds up the pace which may not be ideal for your style.
> 
> Strong visual here though with the focus on her eye colouring. Nice work!


I like your version and the simplification.

I like to add personification and metaphors in my  writing , I'm just not great executing them how I want. It's something that doesn't "flow" out of me as well as I'd like it too...but that's all my writing I guess lol
I like "streamed through" a lot...I'd like to keep "walk across" to give the imagine of the light beams moving across her face.
Plenty of suggestions to consider


----------



## Taylor

KeganThompson said:


> I like your version and the simplification.
> 
> I like to add personification and metaphors in my  writing , I'm just not great executing them how I want. It's something that doesn't "flow" out of me as well as I'd like it too...but that's all my writing I guess lol


I find your style is the type of thing I like to read.  You do a great job of conveying emotions with people's actions. Perhaps that is your focus...the people.  As a reader, I'm not a huge fan of metaphors and personifications.  I'm happily reading along and learning more about the characters and their motivations, and then BAM, I'm supposed to get into the head of an inanimate object.  They're supposed to help you visualize things, ok, but it takes you away for split-second from the story as you have to imagine what the author is trying to convey.


KeganThompson said:


> I like "streamed through" a lot...I'd like to keep "walk across" to give the imagine of the light beams moving across her face.
> Plenty of suggestions to consider


Yes, I never thought of that as the beams moving.  But somehow it makes more sense to me if you say walked across her face because you can't really see "sight".  Then, you could add back the "Blinded".


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## Llyralen

duplicate


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Taylor said:


> I like it, but I'm wondering if the personification is troubling you.  Also, not sure you need the "if only", and a moment seems too long here.
> 
> _When Ami turned to face me, light peeking from between streamed through the blinds walked across and obscured her sight. If only for a moment, For a second, the beam brought out the specks of green in her hazel eyes. Blinded, s She squinted and tilted her head to avoid a direct hit.  _
> 
> Once I added, "obscured", the "blinded" seemed redundant.  And my version speeds up the pace which may not be ideal for your style.
> 
> Strong visual here though with the focus on her eye colouring. Nice work!


Yeah, I'd agree with that change. 'Peeking' suggests subdued light, not blinding light.


----------



## Llyralen

KeganThompson said:


> yes, i understand there is no context to this lol. (this isnt the intro btw) She is sitting at a desk, when she turns to face the MC, (he is standing behind her) the strips of light peeking from the blinds windows hits her in the face. Its summer time and the sun is setting.
> hope that helps 'make it make sense'
> 
> I did have 'strips of light' (close to bars/stripes) in my multiple edits of this LOL
> 
> yes, thanks


Yeah, just rearranging so that you know why the light moves is from her face turning.  I always love moving bars of light and I personally wouldn’t want to lose that visual, so I’m hoping you don’t.

I used to stare for hours at night at the bars of light moving across the vaulted ceiling beams whenever a car came by on our semi-secluded street, making a flurry of criss-cross patterns. Yeah, don’t lose it.

Now I could stare at water reflected off of cave walls for hours.  It’s a topless cave, like a bowl, making for lots of beautiful light patterns and light shadows from waves and fish and sea life. Except that you can only be there for about 30 min at very low tides. I always want to describe how fascinating moving light is to me. Sorry to go overboard with the love of this, but Orson Well’s Othello was basically a study in moving bars of light. He must have really loved it too. The cinema on that is considered the absolute tops for black and white film effects. I am being indulgent to go on about this, though, and I’ve never let myself go too wild about it in my writing, but I do appreciate it here and there and wonder if it is relatable for many to love moving light.

I like the visual of the green flashes in her eyes as well.  

You’ll work it!  It will be awesome.  :1)


----------



## Taylor

KeganThompson said:


> I did have 'strips of light' (close to bars/stripes) in my multiple edits of this LOL





Llyralen said:


> Yeah, just rearranging so that you know why the light moves is from her face turning.  I always love moving bars of light and I personally wouldn’t want to lose that visual, so I’m hoping you don’t.


Agree!  "Strips of light" is a stronger visual.


----------



## KeganThompson

Taylor said:


> I find your style is the type of thing I like to read.  You do a great job of conveying emotions with people's actions. Perhaps that is your focus...the people.  As a reader, I'm not a huge fan of metaphors and personifications.  I'm happily reading along and learning more about the characters and their motivations, and then BAM, I'm supposed to get into the head of an inanimate object.  They're supposed to help you visualize things, ok, but it takes you away for split-second from the story as you have to imagine what the author is trying to convey.


I like actions and character focused stories, but I also like metaphors and personifications as a reader and writer too. I probably have too many in my draft currently because it is something I want to get better at. I like thinking about an implementing abstract thoughts/concepts into writing. I'm not the most straight forward writer (and i don't want to be) I agree that clarity is something I need to work on. I want to find the balance between being direct and hinting to paint full picture. But metaphors, personification, description is probably my second favorite thing to write/think about, while emotion and dialogue is first. 


Taylor said:


> Yes, I never thought of that as the beams moving.  But somehow it makes more sense to me if you say walked across her face because you can't really see "sight".  Then, you could add back the "Blinded".


I used the word "sight" because i didn't want to reuse the word "eyes"... I was trying to emphasize that it hit her in the eyes, but the use of blinded already conveys that. I _may_ have over-emphasized her being _dazzled_ with "sight" "direct hit" and "blinded" lol

I honestly cannot tell you how many times this paragraph changed before I just decided to just post/go with this one LOL
"walking" was something I changed too. It didn't convey what I wanted so I gave that a try

Next time I might post multiple versions of a snippet...because sometimes your first one is your best/better one


----------



## Taylor

KeganThompson said:


> Next time I might post multiple versions of a snippet...because sometime your first one is your best one


So true, there is something to be said for gut instinct.  That's why I'm also not a fan of word-smithing.  My attitude is, read a lot, study your craft, but when you draft...let it flow because that's your natural voice.


----------



## KeganThompson

Taylor said:


> So true, there is something to be said for gut instinct.  That's why I'm also not a fan of word-smithing.  My attitude is, read a lot, study your craft, but when you draft...let it flow because that's your natural voice.


the originally paragraph was clunky, the first one wasn't the best in this case but i'd say i overworked it. I hate drafting, I like to edit. I need to learn not to over edit tho ;P
I'm still experimenting with my writing a lot.


----------



## VRanger

Taylor said:


> That's why I'm also not a fan of word-smithing.  My attitude is, read a lot, study your craft, but when you draft...let it flow because that's your natural voice.


To a certain extent, yes. I don't pick apart a sentence, but I do examine it for primarily eight things:

is it passive when it should be active (rarely, vice versa)
do I have redundant or irrelevant phrases ... especially prepositions
can I eliminate one or more filler words
can I replace a common verb (or phrase) with a more evocative verb
can I replace a common noun with a more descriptive noun
do I have irrelevant excess modifiers which make it too busy or heavy
in a complex sentence, do I need to simplify by rearranging phrases or splitting it into two sentences
finally, when I'm satisfied with any of the above, does it read naturally? If I have to read over a sentence a second time to "get it", that's a problem
It's not like I'm using a checklist, but as experience piles up, these things pop out at me ... sometimes while I write the sentence ... and if not, when I review it. This becomes intuitive, and for the typical sentence which needs some "fixing", I revise it in seconds.

I'm looking for clarity everywhere, and color where it's important, or doesn't overwhelm.

Some other time, we'll discuss revising paragraphs. ;-)


----------



## Taylor

VRanger said:


> To a certain extent, yes. I don't pick apart a sentence, but I do examine it for primarily eight things:
> 
> is it passive when it should be active (rarely, vice versa)
> do I have redundant or irrelevant phrases ... especially prepositions
> can I eliminate one or more filler words
> can I replace a common verb (or phrase) with a more evocative verb
> can I replace a common noun with a more descriptive noun
> do I have irrelevant excess modifiers which make it too busy or heavy
> in a complex sentence, do I need to simplify by rearranging phrases or splitting it into two sentences
> finally, when I'm satisfied with any of the above, does it read naturally? If I have to read over a sentence a second time to "get it", that's a problem
> 
> It's not like I'm using a checklist, but as experience piles up, these things pop out at me ... sometimes while I write the sentence ... and if not, when I review it. This becomes intuitive, and the for the typical sentence which needs some "fixing", I revise it in seconds.
> 
> I'm looking for clarity everywhere, and color where it's important, or doesn't overwhelm.
> 
> Some other time, we'll discuss revising paragraphs. ;-)


Thank you VRanger for an excellent summary of good writing.  I discern these things as the basic function of writing.  When I speak of wordsmithing, I think more of taking a sentence that states clearly what you want to say and then muddying it up in an effort to be more literary.  But that is likely a very negative connotation to the term.

I believe the more you read and write, the more natural these eight things are to execute.  And by all means, if you can do it as you go, it helps to keep the flow of your style. 

I see a non-fiction book on writing advice in your future.  First Chapter - "The Eight Fundamentals of Good Writing."


----------



## VRanger

Taylor said:


> Thank you VRanger for an excellent summary of good writing.  I see these things as the basic function of writing.  When I speak of wordsmithing, I think more of taking a sentence that states clearly what you want to say and then muddying it up in an effort to be more literary.  But that is likely a very negative connotation to the term.
> 
> I believe the more you read and write, the more natural these eight things are to execute.  And by all means, if you can do it as you go, it helps to keep the flow of your style.
> 
> I see a non-fiction book on writing advice in your future.  First Chapter - "The Eight Fundamentals of Good Writing."


What you described as Wordsmithing is some writers' misconception of wordsmithing. I see real wordsmithing as writing a delightful sentence that doesn't get in its own way. Skilled wordsmithing communicates the precise action, setting, or emotion you want the reader to experience.

This is a section from @PiP 's and my WIP I liked, and you can tell me if you think I set a tone you "get". This comes in the midst of Cal suffering from "writer's broke".



> Cal tossed his keyboard up onto the edge of his desk and got up. He drifted past the wet bar and arrived on his patio with two fingers of neat Scotch in his hand. Jake’s pool was a few hundred yards away, but the music, laughter, and squeals carried faintly across the lawns and wound through the orchard. Frogs joined in from the pond down the hill (frogs again!), and cricket song encircled him. He realized it comforted him. People talked about seeking silence to think, but Cal already felt too separated from his world. Silence would only drive that more deeply into the fractures of his contemplation.
> 
> His best ideas always came from connections.
> 
> _Sounds drifting like seaweed on the swells of life, propelled by the steady ocean breeze …_
> 
> Okay, maybe seaweed spoiled _that _mood, but it was an idea. Maybe it could lead to something like _Seminole Wind_. Cal sat straight up with a jerk. _He _didn’t fantasize about matching another writer.
> 
> He slugged down a big gulp of Scotch … too much. The fumes went up his nose with the burn that feels like certain death, and he coughed as if choking on half a steak. Eyes watering, he briefly rued the distant party would never hear his death struggle over their sounds of joy, then the coughs subsided to hacks and finally dwindled. With two fingertips, he held the Scotch tumbler up in line to let moonlight sparkle around the crystal glass and filter through the amber liquid. Cal squinted at the Scotch with the look of an accusing victim staring down his own would-be killer. He slammed it onto the glass tabletop beside him with a resounding smack, then worried he’d cracked one or the other.
> 
> The sonic shock shut the crickets up for almost thirty seconds, but the frogs were unimpressed. One deep-throated bullfrog answered more loudly than before. The draw of the temptation … _rejected_! There would be no frog song!
> 
> “You still alive?” Hope’s voice was too silky to ever startle, even in surprise. She came around the corner of the house and looked at the table. “Uh huh. I’ve warned you about that before, now haven’t I? You don’t drink straight Scotch often enough to get a consistent knack for it.”


----------



## Llyralen

Taylor said:


> So true, there is something to be said for gut instinct.  That's why I'm also not a fan of word-smithing.  My attitude is, read a lot, study your craft, but when you draft...let it flow because that's your natural voice.


Metaphors are my primary and easiest way to understand something as trans-contextual thinking is how I learn fastest. Not writing or reading metaphor takes more time and energy for me. I realize for a lot of people it’s the opposite.

However, not trans-contextual thinking but meta-analysis ways of thinking (which we would want to discuss a bit if you’re interested) usually lends itself easily to some types of word-smithing.  Now I’m curious, Taylor!  I will have to ask you few more questions later if you’re up for it.  .  

Thank heavens everyone has their beautiful differences and that we all can usually understand each other with some effort.


----------



## Taylor

VRanger said:


> What you described as Wordsmithing is some writers' misconception of wordsmithing. I see real wordsmithing as writing a delightful sentence that doesn't get in its own way. Skilled wordsmithing communicates the precise action, setting, or emotion you want the reader to experience.


I stand corrected and will eat my words!    Your latter sentence is what I strive for.  Yay...I do like wordsmithing!  


VRanger said:


> This is a section from @PiP 's and my WIP I liked, and you can tell me if you think I set a tone you "get". This comes in the midst of Cal suffering from "writer's broke".


Bravo!  Brilliant writing and the tone is _perfect _for me.  I've actually done that with a single malt...great description of the feeling. 

I'm looking forward to the release of _Poet Lariat_ and reading your entire collaboration with @PiP.


----------



## VRanger

Taylor said:


> I stand corrected and will eat my words!    Your latter sentence is what I strive for.  Yay...I do like wordsmithing!





Taylor said:


> Bravo!  Brilliant writing and the tone is _perfect _for me.  I've actually done that with a single malt...great description of the feeling.


I don't think you can describe the experience if you haven't lived that. Write what you know! LOL


Taylor said:


> I'm looking forward to the release of _Poet Lariat_ and reading your entire collaboration with @PiP.


I need to update the 'writing success today' thread. We're finished with principle writing now ... in other words, there IS now a complete novel. @PiP 's doing some revision on her early chapters, and we still lack two poems for chapter intros, but essentially we're there.


----------



## Taylor

KeganThompson said:


> the originally paragraph was clunky, the first one wasn't the best in this case but i'd say i overworked it. I hate drafting, I like to edit. I need to learn not to over edit tho ;P
> I'm still experimenting with my writing a lot.


 You know I'm a huge fan!  Still marveling at your LM entry, _The Worn Shoelace_.   


Llyralen said:


> Metaphors are my primary and easiest way to understand something as trans-contextual thinking is how I learn fastest. Not writing or reading metaphor takes more time and energy for me. I realize for a lot of people it’s the opposite.
> 
> However, not trans-contextual thinking but meta-analysis ways of thinking (which we would want to discuss a bit if you’re interested) usually lends itself easily to some types of word-smithing.  Now I’m curious, Taylor!  I will have to ask you few more questions later if you’re up for it.  .
> 
> Thank heavens everyone has their beautiful differences and that we all can usually understand each other with some effort.


Thanks for sharing that!  I know I sit too far on the spectrum towards clear writing.   I need to develop my taste for creative writing.  Lately, I have been wandering over to the WF poetry sections and feeling like a foreigner, but if I read enough I'll start to understand the language.  (Hey, I just used a metaphor) You posted a beautiful poem that moved me.  I admire the ability to write something so strong in so few words.  

"Trans-contextual thinking" was the term I was looking for.  When I test for MBTI I always get 100% "J".  The "Judgers" apparently are great contextual thinkers but lack the trans connection piece.  That's likely why I find metaphors more difficult to read.  But curious to learn more about how meta-analysis can lead to word-smithing.  Sounds like a great discussion thread...I'm up for it if you want to start it, or PM me.


----------



## Taylor

Editing my draft for _Profitline_ and came across this opening of a chapter.  I'm setting up the scene, but the first sentence is too long with too much information. And it all just feels clunky. Any thoughts on how you would clean it up?

Looking out the window of Chenlie’s private jet as they left the McCarren International in Vegas, headed to the Hampton’s for Meredith’s fundraiser, Sofia thought you could not connect two places more opposite to each other. One is a hot dry desert and the other is a cool breezy coastline. But it was much more than just the difference in terrane.


----------



## VRanger

Taylor said:


> Editing my draft for _Profitline_ and came across this opening of a chapter.  I'm setting up the scene, but the first sentence is too long with too much information. And it all just feels clunky. Any thoughts on how you would clean it up?
> 
> Looking out the window of Chenlie’s private jet as they left the McCarren International in Vegas, headed to the Hampton’s for Meredith’s fundraiser, Sofia thought you could not connect two places more opposite to each other. One is a hot dry desert and the other is a cool breezy coastline. But it was much more than just the difference in terrane.


Lots of possibilities, and that might be two paragraphs and some dialogue for me. LOL Many ways to do it, here's one:


> Sofia regarded the desert as Chenlie's jet left Vegas behind. The Hamptons awaited, with Meredith's fundraiser next on Sofia's schedule. She mused you could not connect two more opposite places, one a dry wasteland, the other a cool, breezy coastline. But the differences ran much deeper than the stark contrast in terrain.



Your first sentence is what I refer to as "overeager". ;-) You have a rush of thoughts and you try to get them in all at once. The good thing is, you recognized that. The fix in this case is always to organize those thoughts, simplify, and break them out into separate sentences in an order that builds the events or mood you're looking for.


----------



## Taylor

VRanger said:


> Lots of possibilities, and that might be two paragraphs and some dialogue for me. LOL Many ways to do it, here's one:


Yes, I typically start a chapter with dialogue.  I guess that's why this one wasn't working for me along with all the other problems.


VRanger said:


> Your first sentence is what I refer to as "overeager". ;-) You have a rush of thoughts and you try to get them in all at once. The good thing is, you recognized that. The fix in this case is always to organize those thoughts, simplify, and break them out into separate sentences in an order that builds the events or mood you're looking for.


That's a nice way to describe it...lol!  More like an info dump...or just being lazy.  I like your edit!  "Stark contrast" is stronger than "differences". Do you think wasteland is better than desert?  She is just pulling out of McCarren International.  The view of Vegas is pretty sumptuous.   I was trying to juxtapose the antitheses of the three words, so desert would be in alignment with coastline.

I use the same technique in a later paragraph, to summarize the thought after I get into the deeper aspect of the differences. If I get it cleaned up, I will post the whole thing.  Spoiler alert...they also have some similarities.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Taylor said:


> Editing my draft for _Profitline_ and came across this opening of a chapter.  I'm setting up the scene, but the first sentence is too long with too much information. And it all just feels clunky. Any thoughts on how you would clean it up?
> 
> Looking out the window of *1/ *Chenlie’s private jet as they left the *2/* McCarren International in Vegas, headed to the *3/* Hampton’s for Meredith’s fundraiser, Sofia thought you could not connect two places more opposite to each other. One is a hot dry desert and the other is a cool breezy coastline. But it was much more than just the difference in terrane.


Yeah, it is a bit long. I don't think there's anything wrong with long sentences, in fact I like to use them occasionally to make sure I break any monotonous rhythms. The problem isn't the length, it's the amount of information, as you've alluded to. I would say there's an argument to be made that at least Chenlie's private jet (depending on how important the character is) and definitely Meridith's fundraiser, warrant a sentence of their own. Is it necessary at this point in the story to mention who owned the jet? 

Being specific is good, but I'm not sure it's warranted at all times. The main focus of this seems to be her considering the difference between the two places. If you want to impart this amount of information, they I'd suggest building small scenes around them. If they're not important and you can't build anything meaningful around them, then that tells you that extra detail isn't necessary. 

I've actually taken a couple of stabs at that first sentence and just can't really cut it down simply because of the fact I don't know how important some of that information is. The last part is a little wordy and could be cut down: 'Sofia considered how different the two places were.' But it still requires both places being mentioned. I'd definitely rethink this paragraph and try and approach it from a different angle.


----------



## Taylor

TheMightyAz said:


> Yeah, it is a bit long. I don't think there's anything wrong with long sentences, in fact I like to use them occasionally to make sure I break any monotonous rhythms. The problem isn't the length, it's the amount of information, as you've alluded to. I would say there's an argument to be made that at least Chenlie's private jet (depending on how important the character is) and definitely Meridith's fundraiser, warrant a sentence of their own. Is it necessary at this point in the story to mention who owned the jet?


Really good point!  The private jet hasn't been mentioned before, so it is important because it indicates how rich they are. And she is traveling from one rich society pod to another rich society pod that is different to a degree but later, she ponders the similarities.  Meredith's fundraiser has been mentioned a lot already, and the only reason for it here is to indicate where she is headed.  


TheMightyAz said:


> Being specific is good, but I'm not sure it's warranted at all times. The main focus of this seems to be her considering the difference between the two places. If you want to impart this amount of information, they I'd suggest building small scenes around them. If they're not important and you can't build anything meaningful around them, then that tells you that extra detail isn't necessary.


That makes sense.  If you don't need it, take it away.  


TheMightyAz said:


> I've actually taken a couple of stabs at that first sentence and just can't really cut it down simply because of the fact I don't know how important some of that information is. The last part is a little wordy and could be cut down: 'Sofia considered how different the two places were.' But it still requires both places being mentioned. I'd definitely rethink this paragraph and try and approach it from a different angle.


I was hoping to see your handy work here AZ!   

I'll work on it with your suggestions in mind and hopefully post the whole section.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Taylor said:


> Really good point!  The private jet hasn't been mentioned before, so it is important because it indicates how rich they are. And she is traveling from one rich society pod to another rich society pod that is different to a degree but later, she ponders the similarities.  Meredith's fundraiser has been mentioned a lot already, and the only reason for it here is to indicate where she is headed.
> 
> That makes sense.  If you don't need it, take it away.
> 
> I was hoping to see your handy work here AZ!
> 
> I'll work on it with your suggestions in mind and hopefully post the whole section.


'Private jet' would be enough then and 'fundraiser' would put the reader in the picture because you've mentioned it before. 

'Looking out the window of the private jet as they left Vegas, heading to the fundraiser, Sofia considered how different the two places were.'

As Vranger mentioned though, you've consider everything you want to say as you wrote the sentence. What you ought to do is consider what you want to say before you've written the paragraph.


----------



## VRanger

Taylor said:


> Yes, I typically start a chapter with dialogue.  I guess that's why this one wasn't working for me along with all the other problems.
> 
> That's a nice way to describe it...lol!  More like an info dump...or just being lazy.  I like your edit!  "Stark contrast" is stronger than "differences". Do you think wasteland is better than desert?  She is just pulling out of McCarren International.  The view of Vegas is pretty sumptuous.   I was trying to juxtapose the antitheses of the three words, so desert would be in alignment with coastline.
> 
> I use the same technique in a later paragraph, to summarize the thought after I get into the deeper aspect of the differences. If I get it cleaned up, I will post the whole thing.  Spoiler alert...they also have some similarities.


"Wasteland" got in there because I'd already used "desert" once, and I wasn't about to use it a second time in close proximity. If you want Vegas mentioned, it could be something like "the wasteland surrounding the fairy-tale oasis" (again, "Vegas" already used). And many things could replace "fairy-tale" there depending you what you want to bring out. The Strip entered my mind first.

To follow up on the discussion, I like using the owner's name with "jet". Using "Private jet" sounds like trying to impress with an adjective, and once you use the owner's name, "private" becomes redundant. Similarly, I dropped the airport name because it doesn't add anything valuable to your thought.


----------



## Taylor

TheMightyAz said:


> 'Private jet' would be enough then and 'fundraiser' would put the reader in the picture because you've mentioned it before.
> 
> 'Looking out the window of the private jet as they left Vegas, heading to the fundraiser, Sofia considered how different the two places were.'


Perfect!


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Taylor said:


> Perfect!


Think about the logic here. She's heading from one place to another and while that journey is taking place, she's considering the differences between the two. Personally, I'd wait until she landed before she considered the differences.


----------



## Taylor

TheMightyAz said:


> Think about the logic here. She's heading from one place to another and while that journey is taking place, she considering the differences between the two. Personally, I'd wait until she landed before she considered the differences.



You would? Why is that?

EDIT: I see because she needs time to consider.  I like that!


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Taylor said:


> You would?  Why is that?
> 
> EDIT:  I see because she needs time to consider.  I like that!


Yeah, it gives her room to think and a few concrete observations. She's actually there rather than thinking about it.


----------



## VRanger

TheMightyAz said:


> Yeah, it gives her room to think and a few concrete observations. She's actually there rather than thinking about it.


It depends on context. If the character is familiar with both places, and Taylor wants to foreshadow scenes in the Hamptons, it makes perfect sense to tie the two together. We're getting a transitional scene, so it's fine to do the transition. Once the character GETS to the Hamptons, I'd rather see action there proceed rather than backtracking.

Taylor, I don't know if you saw what I added above because I think you read it before I submitted the edit. You're quick!


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

VRanger said:


> It depends on context. If the character is familiar with both places, and Taylor wants to foreshadow scenes in the Hamptons, it makes perfect sense to tie the two together. We're getting a transitional scene, so it's fine to do the transition. Once the character GETS to the Hamptons, I'd rather see action there proceed rather than backtracking.
> 
> Taylor, I don't know if you saw what I added above because I think you read it before I submitted the edit. You're quick!


Of course it depends on context but, because that piece of information has been added, I'd have to assume it was a large part of the story, at least for the character. In which case, I'd want Vegas to be observed and the destination to be observed too. If the difference is so stark and it means something to the character, then a little time spent observing those differences (not necessarily seeing or thinking but rather describing) feels warranted. Let the reader see the difference before the character directly notes it.


----------



## Taylor

VRanger said:


> To follow up on the discussion, I like using the owner's name with "jet". Using "Private jet" sounds like trying to impress with an adjective, and once you use the owner's name, "private" becomes redundant. Similarly, I dropped the airport name because it doesn't add anything valuable to your thought.


You could say Chenlie's Jet...but something about the words _private jet_ is sexy.  Sofia and Chenlie have a very passionate relationship, much of which is driven by his extreme wealth and her intelligence and drive to make his money grow. 

But the name of the airport perhaps could be a casualty.   I used to travel a lot on business to the same places and some of these airports have a life of their own to me.  As soon as I hear the airport name I picture that exact tarmac and the surrounding.  Some readers might get this, but most probably won't.  



VRanger said:


> It depends on context. If the character is familiar with both places, and Taylor wants to foreshadow scenes in the Hamptons, it makes perfect sense to tie the two together. We're getting a transitional scene, so it's fine to do the transition. Once the character GETS to the Hamptons, I'd rather see action there proceed rather than backtracking.


It's true, and there is always that time before takeoff that seems to take forever.  Especially these days line ups on the runway are common. Much of what I write comes from my personal experiences.  I have looked out of many airplane windows pondering my journey.   Once you arrive, you are on your feet. organizing your bags and looking for your transportation.   But I like @TheMightyAz's idea about her pondering it further as she is in the air.  And she could dwell on it when she is in the limo heading to her hotel.


----------



## VRanger

TheMightyAz said:


> Of course it depends on context but, because that piece of information has been added, I'd have to assume it was a large part of the story, at least for the character. In which case, I'd want Vegas to be observed and the destination to be observed too. If the difference is so stark and it means something to the character, then a little time spent observing those differences (not necessarily seeing or thinking but rather describing) feels warranted. Let the reader see the difference before the character directly notes it.


I just disagree. The reader is reading words 100% of the time. The author makes them work where the author needs them to be, and in a case like that, where the author wants the character's head to be. There is no technical or plotting reason why the character should not think ahead, and it's a VERY common device. Not only that, I think it would be a recognizable experience for many readers. Personally, I frequently think ahead to the destination when I start a trip, whether by car or plane.

In general, juxtaposition is a powerful tool when elegantly presented.


----------



## Taylor

TheMightyAz said:


> Of course it depends on context but, because that piece of information has been added, I'd have to assume it was a large part of the story, at least for the character. In which case, I'd want Vegas to be observed and the destination to be observed too. If the difference is so stark and it means something to the character, then a little time spent observing those differences (not necessarily seeing or thinking but rather describing) feels warranted. Let the reader see the difference before the character directly notes it.


As I mentioned in my response to @VRanger.  I do like the idea of her thoughts taking a little longer.  There are opportunities when she is in the air and once she is in the limo.   I'll play with that a bit and see if it works.


----------



## Llyralen

Taylor said:


> Editing my draft for _Profitline_ and came across this opening of a chapter.  I'm setting up the scene, but the first sentence is too long with too much information. And it all just feels clunky. Any thoughts on how you would clean it up?
> 
> Looking out the window of Chenlie’s private jet as they left the McCarren International in Vegas, headed to the Hampton’s for Meredith’s fundraiser, Sofia thought you could not connect two places more opposite to each other. One is a hot dry desert and the other is a cool breezy coastline. But it was much more than just the difference in terrane.



My stab:
Looking out the jet window, Sofia thought you could not fly between two places more opposite than the desert of Vegas and the cool breezy coastline of the Hampton's. But it was more than just a difference in terrane.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Taylor said:


> As I mentioned in my response to @VRanger.  I do like the idea of her thoughts taking a little longer.  There are opportunities when she is in the air and once she is in the limo.   I'll play with that a bit and see if it works.


I'd consider laying the groundwork for the comparison by observing what you feel are things in stark contrast to the destination. Don't mention why you're doing that directly, or on the flight, but rather drop in those comparisons as descriptions on arrival. Then, as you've mentioned, let her ponder them on the journey to the hotel.


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## Taylor

Llyralen said:


> My stab:
> Looking out the jet window, Sofia thought you could not fly between two places more opposite than the desert of Vegas and the cool breezy coastline of the Hampton's. But it was more than just a difference in terrane.


It works!  But can we add "hot dry" to the desert so my antitheses are balanced?   Hot/cool; dry/breezy; desert/coastline.  Or am I being too much of an accountant about it?


----------



## Llyralen

A lot of replies happened while I was working on that ^. 
How can passion in a relationship be a result of money or one-sided intelligence?  Don't try to tell me, it would only furrow my brow.  Sings "Can't buy me love!"


----------



## Llyralen

Taylor said:


> It works!  But can we add "hot dry" to the desert so my antitheses are balanced?   Hot/cool; dry/breezy; desert/coastline.  Or am I being too much of an accountant about it?


A desert already is hot and dry so it's redundant which means overly wordy.  I had considered taking out cool and breezy, but not every coast is cool and breezy, although most are.  If you want the balance, consider just saying coastline, in my opinion.


----------



## Taylor

Llyralen said:


> A lot of replies happened while I was working on that ^.
> How can passion in a relationship be a result of money or one-sided intelligence?  Don't try to tell me, it would only furrow my brow.  Sings "Can't buy me love!"


Oh, they're both intelligent...that's what attracted them in the first place.  And I'm sorry if this offends some people, but money and living a high life, like being in a posh private jet, in soft leather seats, and getting pampered by the flight attendants, can drive a LOT of passion. 

EDIT:  I'm not saying it's the only thing that drives passion.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Llyralen said:


> A desert already is hot and dry so it's redundant which means overly wordy.  I had considered taking out cool and breezy, but not every coast is cool and breezy, although most are.  If you want the balance, consider just saying coastline, in my opinion.


To be honest, I think things such as hot/cold would be general observations. What I'd want to do is find interesting and unique observations only the character would make.


----------



## Taylor

Llyralen said:


> A desert already is hot and dry so it's redundant which means overly wordy.  I had considered taking out cool and breezy, but not every coast is cool and breezy, although most are.  If you want the balance, consider just saying coastline, in my opinion.


Actually, I can say the same about the desert.  I spend a lot of time in Tucson and it is considered a "lush desert."  It can be cool in the winter and is a lot less dry.  My Arizonian friends always laugh at me when I arrive in November with my white pants, because coming from Canada it's still like a resort location for me.  Vegas is much hotter and dryer.  I get what you are saying about redundancy, generally not a good thing.


----------



## Llyralen

Taylor said:


> Oh, they're both intelligent...that's what attracted them in the first place.  And I'm sorry if this offends some people, but money and living a high life, like being in a posh private jet, in soft leather seats, and getting pampered by the flight attendants, can drive a LOT of passion.
> 
> EDIT:  I'm not saying it's the only thing that drives passion.


I'm still skeptical, but since the biggest love organ is the brain, we're going to have to allow for differences in what fuels someone's gears. I seriously doubt the Queen of England could buy a better rocket fuel than I have, though. 

Anyway... 
I'm sure you've got the next observation coming that can explain what is different besides the terrane, which might be the next part that @TheMightyAz is hoping for.


----------



## Llyralen

Taylor said:


> Actually, I can say the same about the desert.  I spend a lot of time in Tucson and it is considered a "lush desert."  It can be cool in the winter and is a lot less dry.  My Arizonian friends always laugh at me when I arrive in November with my white pants, because coming from Canada it's still like a resort location for me.  Vegas is much hotter and dryer.  I get what you are saying about redundancy, generally not a good thing.


Yeah, and daily it's different. I grew up in a desert and now live on the coast myself  lol.  Too funny.  /hugs    =)


----------



## Ajoy

Taylor said:


> Actually, I can say the same about the desert.  I spend a lot of time in Tucson and it is considered a "lush desert."  It can be cool in the winter and is a lot less dry.  My Arizonian friends always laugh at me when I arrive in November with my white pants, because coming from Canada it's still like a resort location for me.  Vegas is much hotter and dryer.  I get what you are saying about redundancy, generally not a good thing.


If we really want to talk about unexpected deserts, the tundra regions around where I live up north are considered desert.   It gets far below zero with no sunlight to speak of, but because of the low annual precipitation, it's desert.

That said, you might weigh the need for the words hot and dry in the case of the Vegas desert depending on how you ultimately word things.


----------



## alpacinoutd

Are these okay? Which one do you think is better?

1. In the pit of her stomach, a guilt-tinged joy bloomed and spread through her body as her best friend's husband undressed her. 

2. As her best friend's husband undressed her, guilt mingled with a joy that was spreading through her body.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> Are these okay? Which one do you think is better?
> 
> 1. In the pit of her stomach, a guilt-tinged joy bloomed and spread through her body as her best friend's husband undressed her.


This is a good sentence. I'd work on the relationship between, 'guilt-tinged', 'joy' and 'bloomed' though. The journey there is calling for a unifying theme. 'Joy' I would consider the fulcrum, around which the other two words revolve. I'd suggest 'bloomed' is the stronger image to play on so 'tinged' is the word I'd consider changing to match (in some way) 'bloomed'. 


alpacinoutd said:


> 2. As her best friend's husband undressed her, guilt mingled with the joy that was spreading through her body.


As I've said many time in this thread, 'was' is a word to keep your eye on, as is 'that'. In most cases it can be struck out without losing anything. I'd challenge yourself to write sentences without using 'was' for a while so you can get a feel for the alternatives.


----------



## alpacinoutd

TheMightyAz said:


> I'd suggest 'bloomed' is the stronger image to play on so 'tinged' is the word I'd consider changing to match (in some way) 'bloomed'.



I thought about changing "tinged" myself. The problem is I want to use an "adjective" before "joy". 

So I don't have very many options if I want to make an adjective with "guilt +adjective". 

Guilt-laden joy? Guilt-tainted ?  guilt-stained?  guilt-entwined joy?

What about these? ( if I don't want to use an adjective )

1. A joy laced with guilt bloomed in the pit of her stomach. 

2. A joy interwoven with guilt bloomed in the pit of her stomach and spread through her body.


----------



## VRanger

Az gave you the correct technical advice on the copula (was), but also, the first sentence has the nice surprise ending.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> I thought about changing "tinged" myself. The problem is I want to use an "adjective" before "joy".
> 
> So I don't have very many options if I want to make an adjective with "guilt +adjective".
> 
> Guilt-laden joy? Guilt-tainted ?  guilt-stained?  guilt-entwined joy?
> 
> What about these? ( if I don't want to use an adjective )
> 
> 1. A joy laced with guilt bloomed in the pit of her stomach.
> 
> 2. A joy interwoven with guilt bloomed in the pit of her stomach and spread through her body.


Yeah, I was giving it some more thought and it may be you need to change both 'tinged' and 'bloomed'. Bloomed is a positive word whilst guilt is a negative word. I'm also questioning what a 'joy laced with guilt' would feel like. Could you really have both 'joy' and 'guilt'?


----------



## Llyralen

alpacinoutd said:


> Are these okay? Which one do you think is better?
> 
> 1. In the pit of her stomach, a guilt-tinged joy bloomed and spread through her body as her best friend's husband undressed her.
> 
> 2. As her best friend's husband undressed her, guilt mingled with a joy that was spreading through her body.


1 is far better.  Pit, guilt-tinged joy bloomed, spread, all works like a blossoming flower to me. The visual movement of the emotion follows a plant. I guess the only way I’d hone it would be to maybe make it a bit more flower-like— guilt-tipped maybe… maybe. I am fine with a suffused color of guilt going through the flower, so those two are equal and tipped is not more flower-like but might be more sex-like.  It doesn’t have to get overt to give the impression of something growing from something small and opening and spreading.  Total tangent but this is what exploration in sex (getting to know the other person) is like in my opinion, an opening lily. I had a friend who specifically said sex was like a lotus blooming for her. The roots are important too, you’ve got them with “spread”. I’d say it’s visually-emotionally perfect.  Well-done.    
(And now I’m laughing at myself but some of our visual brains work this way and I’m going to give in and discuss— another friend of mine said she has geometric shapes sex, I’ve had that too sometimes, I also have star-in-water and mountain peak-asteroid-field and running streams with colors sex— sorry to overkill, but my brain puts some emotions into shapes and so do other people sometimes and your sentence with the emotions here is visually correct and complete.).  The other sentence doesn’t have any of that movement/growth of the emotion visually. Hope you enjoyed this!  Lol.


----------



## Llyralen

Laced… no… now you’re mixing visuals which is annoying  for people with visuals like mine.  I’d have to see the whole thing and let you know if the other visually works… some flowers can be lacey or have color laced through, but you’d have to work hard to get this to all work and emotions don’t move or build like cloth itself, unless weaving or the cloth draping or…I mean of course you could compare anything in some way, but you would want to keep a consistent visual so that the full impact can be seen and not a garage sale of snatches of images, if that makes sense.

I know some people are as sound-oriented.as I am visually oriented with concepts and maybe they could catch what I miss.  In fact, I was just listening to someone talk about how Jane Austen was focused on sound… phonocentric is the word… here it is:

Can there be guilt and joy?  Yes. There can also be heartbreak and joy at once too in my experience.


----------



## MBur1

TheMightyAz said:


> Ok, so I'm trying something. I have been told if this is reasonably successful, a subforum could be made for it. So, please, try to keep it on topic.
> 
> The idea is to have a section purely for craft and nothing else. We have a section for grammar and we have the Writing Workshop section, but that section is really for short stories and novels. Yes you get critique there on style and craft but it's not specifically for craft and is such a broad church of critique, it doesn't lend itself well to nailing down craft alone. I hope this thread does just that. Other forums have a section like this so I see no reason we couldn't have one here too. From a quick scout around, they're popular.
> 
> So what's it about? Instead of posting whole stories or large sections of stories, you post a sentence or a paragraph (or three). Something you're not happy with and want to know how to improve. You could also ask for help with better word choice, better structuring, any number of craft related things. I've already done this a couple of times with things like my 'is this mournful?' thread but never really felt it fitted here well. I think a focused subforum would be helpful for a lot of people.


Well, this is my first forum, or subforum...or thread. I don't know what it is. But I need some help with a snippet and this seemed like the right place to go. I have a spooky part in my story and I hate spooky. I literally will give myself nightmares if I make it too scary. That being said, can anyone guide me on making this "scene" really terrifying. My character is witnessing a werewolf up close for the first time. And these arent your Twilight werewolves. Think Mr.Lupin from harry potter on steroids. Also sorry if it is a bit too long for a snippet. 
--------------------------------------​That creature. 
Its form was on the wall, though instead of being closely related to a wolf, Clement was now certain it was from his nightmares. It was not walking as a wolf, but standing, as a human. Its shadow reached the ceiling and its posture was horrifically curved. The back arched with its two arms tucked in tight.
He had to be dreaming. He closed his eyes tight, clenching the blankets until his hands began to sweat and his body trembled. If it was a dream then he was safe. Yet why did it feel like death? 
_“S a f e.”_ 
The words cut through his thoughts and he opened his eyes. The shadow was still there and in his peripheral, he saw patches of grey fur. Bloodied from what looked like a bullet hole. It was the same creature and yet in just a few hours, its body had undergone impossible changes. 
Safe? What did it mean? Who was safe? 
The bed groaned. Fabric pulled slightly towards his feet. The thing was trying to climb on the bed. 
“Go away.” Clement said with no courage in his voice. 
The pressure on the bed stopped and something wet hit his shoulders.
Saliva? No. 
He inhaled that metallic smell and he glanced to his shirt. A warm red liquid was spilling over his shoulder, sliding down his neck. If he had fingernails, they would have been through the blankets already. 
The shadow seemed to shrink somewhat and Clement prayed it was leaving. The heavy breathing grew quiet and with what little strength he had, he turned his neck to glance behind. The creature's back was to him, its spine visible through the thin skin. It raised its head carefully. It turned and met Clement’s wide eyes with a smile. No longer were jagged teeth in the mouth of the beast, but pristine human teeth. The bottom and top were perfectly aligned. The creature's hands were tucked tight against its chest, its body shivering, despite the heat. 
A bright pink tongue draped over the symmetrical teeth and it forced its back straight. Standing up tall, head brushing the ceiling. In one movement its head had spun and smacked against the lantern. The cottage was bathed in absolute night. 
Clement lunged. With blankets in hand, he wrapped them around the creatures’ form and nearly pulled the door of its hinges.


----------



## Llyralen

@MBur1  hello there!  Welcome!  My one thought is to edit it for pacing. You’ll need some brief description at the beginning, but you dont want to have your character thinking of anything but how to deal with this creature now to survive. Take out anything that destroys the immediate action once the fight begins. Use words that show the dangerous position of your character in the moment. 

I’m sure there is more to it, but start with that and let’s see where it gets you, also someone else might step in with some good ideas.


----------



## RGS

alpacinoutd said:


> Are these okay? Which one do you think is better?
> 
> 1. In the pit of her stomach, a guilt-tinged joy bloomed and spread through her body as her best friend's husband undressed her.
> 
> 2. As her best friend's husband undressed her, guilt mingled with a joy that was spreading through her body.



I would go with:

The sensations of guilt and joy were overwhelming, as her best friend's husband undressed her.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

MBur1 said:


> --------------------------------------​That creature.
> *1/ *Its form was on the wall, though instead of being closely related to a wolf, Clement was now certain it was from his nightmares. It was not walking as a wolf, but standing, as a human.  Its shadow reached the ceiling and its posture was horrifically curved. The back arched with its two arms tucked in tight.


*1/ *The very first thing that jumps out at me is the use of 'was', something you want to curb a lot, more so here because you want impact. What do you mean by 'it's form was on the wall'? I'm assuming you mean it's shadow because later you say it's standing. The only reason I'm slightly confused is because you then go on to mention the shadow. I'm going to run with 'shadow' for the first sentence just to show how to get rid of 'was'. The sentence is always on the back foot 'was on the wall' and 'instead of being closely related to' for instance. At this point in the paragraph, why would something that isn't closely related to a wolf: '... instead of being closely related to a wolf', make Clement believe it was from his nightmares? It suggests only things other than wolves make Clement believe they're from his nightmares. *'The wolf cast a shadow on the wall. Not on all fours but standing as a human, back arched with its arms tucked in tight.'* Unless you come at the nightmare from an interesting angle, that part sounds slightly cliqued, and so I'd lose it. I've split it into two sentences because this would be an emotionally charged scene and shorter sentences create a faster pace. I've also brought in information from the other sentences.


MBur1 said:


> *1/* He had to be dreaming. *2/ *He closed his eyes tight, clenching the blankets until his hands began to sweat and his body trembled. *3/* If it was a dream then he was safe. Yet why did it feel like death?


*1/* This is where you can use nightmare comfortably: *'It had to be a nightmare.' 2/* Because I've removed Clement from the first paragraph, I'll add it here: *'Clement closed his eyes tight, clenching the blankets until his hands sweated and his body trembled' 3/ *I'd bring the last two sentences together. *'If it was only a dream then he'd be safe, and yet it felt like death'. *


MBur1 said:


> _“S a f e.”_
> The words cut through his thoughts and he opened his eyes. *1/* The shadow was still there and in his peripheral, he saw patches of grey fur. *2/ *Bloodied from what looked like a bullet hole. *3/* It was the same creature and yet in just a few hours, its body had undergone impossible changes.


*1/* *'**The shadow lingered, and in his peripheral view, he saw patches of grey fur.'* I'm focused mainly on showing how you can cut down on 'was'. 'Lingered' is far more evocative than 'was still there'. I've got to be honest, I'm struggling with this piece. Most of the time I don't find it too difficult to adjust and offer advice, but your question was about making it more terrifying. That's down to pacing, sentence structure and word choice, as well as a large dollop of atmosphere (also evoked by the latter). Because I try to work within the framework already established, it's quite difficult. I think you're rushing through this too quickly, which appears to go against my previous suggestion of shorter sentences to create a quicker pace, but it really doesn't. There are moments here that could hold more terror and which require more information. Terror tends to hold longer and focus the mind on each detail that terrifies. The moment would stretch out for Clement because he wants it to end, giving you the perfect opportunity to torture him longer. Consider which parts you'd like to torture him with (longish sentences with gnarly words) and which you'd like to express a quickening pulse (shorter sentences). *2/* I'd add this to the previous sentence. Is there any particular reason why you can't directly say it was a bullet hole? I don't know the protag or his background but if there is a bullet hole then I'd have assume guns are a large part of this world, making it more likely Clement would recognise it for what it was: *'The shadows lingered, and in his peripheral view, he saw patches of grey fur, blooded from a bullet wound'.* It's the wound itself that would be causing bleeding. *3/* This slightly confused me. You say it was the same 'creature' (not human) from before but it's undergone a change. Generally, werewolves are humans that change into a wolf. Here we have human to wolf and wolf to what? 


MBur1 said:


> Safe? What did it mean? Who was safe?
> The bed groaned. Fabric pulled slightly towards his feet. The thing was trying to climb on the bed.


Be emphatic and definite. The words 'slightly' and 'trying' water down the imagery. Would a werewolf have trouble climbing onto a bed? Just how short is it! The bed 'groaned' so it wasn't failing to climb on the bed. *'The bed groaned, sheets pulled towards his feet, as the beast climbed ever closer to his face.' *I've taken a little more liberty than I normally would there, in the hope of helping with your question. 'Beast' is a more evocative word that 'thing' and 'closer to his face' is both intimate (and circumstantially) more frightening. 


MBur1 said:


> “Go away.” Clement said with no courage in his voice.


It should be a comma, not a full stop, even if the following word is capitalised. That goes for question marks and exclamation marks too, although exclamation marks are a no no in my book for fiction. The words or the sentence should convey the exclamation. We'd have to assume here that Clement often shows courage but in this instance it's absent. It just sits wrong for me. Rather than 'telling' us the emotion involved, show us the emotion involved: ' *"Go away," Clement said, voice cracking in a dry throat.'* Something along those lines. 


MBur1 said:


> The pressure on the bed stopped and something wet hit his shoulders.


Would the pressure stop? The weight of the werewolf would be consistent. 


MBur1 said:


> Saliva? No.
> *1/* He inhaled that *a *metallic smell and he glanced to his shirt. *2/* A warm red liquid was spilling over his shoulder, sliding down his neck. *3/* If he had fingernails, they would have been through the blankets already.


*1/* You've used 'that' here but we haven't yet been introduced to the idea it's blood. I'd have him flick on a bedside light earlier. This has been related to a nightmare and he's in bed. That means it's likely dark. Would he then be able to glance at his shirt (night-shirt?) and see blood? *2/* There's no merit in being indefinite at this point. You might as well spell it out for the reader. It's blood. My go to would be 'hot' and not 'warm', which is more evocative. If it hits his shoulder, how does it slide down his neck? I'd make that uncomfortably intimate too: *'Hot blood spilled onto his cheek and slid down his neck.'* *3/* I'm going to assume Clement bites his nails, which makes this ring true. If it's an indirect reference to 'biting nails' because he's fearful, I'd rethink that. It would come over as cartoony if it is. Again, to your original question. You want it to feel as visceral as you can make it. 'been through' is somewhat sedate. Something like 'pierced' or 'cut through' would be more visceral. 'Already' waters down the idea. *'If he had fingernails, they would have pierced the blankets.'* If for some reason I've read that wrong, the wolf would have 'claws', but I'm pretty sure you're talking about Clement ... I think. 


MBur1 said:


> *1/* The shadow seemed to shrink somewhat and Clement prayed it was leaving. *2/* The heavy breathing grew quiet and with what little strength he had, he turned his neck to glance behind. *3/* The creature's back was to him, its spine visible through the thin skin. *4/* It raised its head carefully. It turned and met Clement’s wide eyes with a smile. *5/* No longer were jagged teeth in the mouth of the beast, but pristine human teeth. The bottom and top were perfectly aligned. *6/* The creature's hands were tucked tight against its chest, its body shivering, despite the heat.


*1/ *Again, slightly vague. 'seemed' and 'somewhat' are also words you want to try and cut right down on. 'Almost' and 'nearly' are another couple to keep your eyes out for. Only use them if they're truly warranted.* 'The shadow shrunk and Clement prayed it was leaving'.* *2/* You're quite right in differentiating between 'quiet' and 'silent'. Silence is the absence of sound altogether. The problem I have is 'grew quiet' does make it sound as if there is no more sound'. ' ... grew quieter' would rectify that but sounds awkward. ' ... quietened' would be better. A glance is a quick look but Clement is seeing detail, meaning it's not a glance. *'The heavy breathing quietened, and with what little strength he had, he looked ahead.'* I'd question what strength he needs to look (glance). You may be talking about 'inner strength' which does mean bravery, but there's no point in using two words when you can use one. I'd consider 'bravery'. I'm critiquing this as I go but I can't recall you mentioning Clement turned to lay on his stomach. Again, just to show how you can get rid of 'was': *'The creature had its back to him, spine visible through the thin skin.' *Why thin skin though? I think what you've done there is try and justify why he could see the spine, but you don't have to have thin skin for the spine to show. *'The creature had its back to him, spine visible through the dark skin.'* Which also adds a little detail. As I said earlier though, you need to have at least some light to justify being able to describe all this detail. Moonlight perhaps? Instead of flicking on a bedside lamp. It is a werewolf after all. *4/* Both these sentences begin with 'it' so I'd bring them together. Consider logistics carefully. As in Clement turning around, here you have the creature with its head bowed but then it turned and met his gaze. I'd also question 'carefully'. What does that mean and what does it look like? I'm trying to visualise it but I can't.  : *'It raised its head and met Clement’s wide eyes with a smile.' 5/ *Regardless of whether it's moonlight or lamplight, I doubt he'd be able to make out the exact condition of the teeth. 'Pristine' mean 'new', which is something most people don't possess, other than Hollywood stars. I'd Just lose that. I'd also lose the next line too. It feels an odd little detail considering the dimness of the light and Clement's state of mind. *6/* 'Were' is the cousin of 'was' and equally as egregious. You have it in both this and the previous sentence. You may be able to lose one easily by bringing the sentences together. Like I said, it's not about losing them ALL, it's about cutting down: ' *'No longer were jagged teeth in the mouth of the beast, but human teeth, its hands tucked tight against its chest, body shivering, despite the heat.' *I'd probably lose 'despite the heat' there. A shiver is associated with lots of things and no reader would immediately assume it was cold. They'd likely assume it was the fevered result of a transformation, as did I. 


MBur1 said:


> *1/* A bright pink tongue draped over the symmetrical teeth and it forced its back straight. Standing up tall, head brushing the ceiling. *2/* In one movement its head had spun and smacked against the lantern. *3/* The cottage was bathed in absolute night.
> Clement lunged. *4/ *With blankets in hand, he wrapped them around the creatures’ form and nearly pulled the door of its hinges.


*1/ *'bright, pink tongue'. 'Bright' makes it sound almost luminescent and 'draped' gives it a huge scale. You've also doubled down on those teeth being perfect. I'd also bring in detail from the following sentence:* 'A tongue lolled over its teeth as it forced its back straight, eventually standing tall, head brushing the ceiling.' 2/ *I've mention logistics and this passage of sentences shows you need to consider more carefully what is going on and where things are placed. So much so that I can't really rewrite this because I'm not certain what's going on. 'It's head spun'. What does that mean? Which way is it facing now? 'smacked' is an uninteresting word and not very descriptive. 'against the lantern'. Where is this lantern? On the ceiling, yes? The problem is, I see lanterns as smallish and usually on a surface or on a wall, not on a ceiling. I know they can also hang from ceilings but because you've jumped around so much with the camera and I don't know for certain where in this space either Clement and the beast are, my visual senses are being thrown all over the shop! *3/* As I mentioned before, then how is Clement seeing anything at all? *4/* Wouldn't he just have one blanket? Surely he didn't gather up all his blankets. You don't need 'form'. 'nearly pulled the door off its hinges'. There it is again.  How small is this bedroom? How tall is Clement? Where is this creature stood? It sounds like there's no space at all between the end of the bed and the door.


----------



## MBur1

TheMightyAz said:


> *1/ *The very first thing that jumps out at me is the use of 'was', something you want to curb a lot, more so here because you want impact. What do you mean by 'it's form was on the wall'? I'm assuming you mean it's shadow because later you say it's standing. The only reason I'm slightly confused is because you then go on to mention the shadow. I'm going to run with 'shadow' for the first sentence just to show how to get rid of 'was'. The sentence is always on the back foot 'was on the wall' and 'instead of being closely related to' for instance. At this point in the paragraph, why would something that isn't closely related to a wolf: '... instead of being closely related to a wolf', make Clement believe it was from his nightmares? It suggests only things other than wolves make Clement believe they're from his nightmares. *'The wolf cast a shadow on the wall. Not on all fours but standing as a human, back arched with its arms tucked in tight.'* Unless you come at the nightmare from an interesting angle, that part sounds slightly cliqued, and so I'd lose it. I've split it into two sentences because this would be an emotionally charged scene and shorter sentences create a faster pace. I've also brought in information from the other sentences.
> 
> *1/* This is where you can use nightmare comfortably: *'It had to be a nightmare.' 2/* Because I've removed Clement from the first paragraph, I'll add it here: *'Clement closed his eyes tight, clenching the blankets until his hands sweated and his body trembled' 3/ *I'd bring the last two sentences together. *'If it was only a dream then he'd be safe, and yet it felt like death'. *
> 
> *1/* *'**The shadow lingered, and in his peripheral view, he saw patches of grey fur.'* I'm focused mainly on showing how you can cut down on 'was'. 'Lingered' is far more evocative than 'was still there'. I've got to be honest, I'm struggling with this piece. Most of the time I don't find it too difficult to adjust and offer advice, but your question was about making it more terrifying. That's down to pacing, sentence structure and word choice, as well as a large dollop of atmosphere (also evoked by the latter). Because I try to work within the framework already established, it's quite difficult. I think you're rushing through this too quickly, which appears to go against my previous suggestion of shorter sentences to create a quicker pace, but it really doesn't. There are moments here that could hold more terror and which require more information. Terror tends to hold longer and focus the mind on each detail that terrifies. The moment would stretch out for Clement because he wants it to end, giving you the perfect opportunity to torture him longer. Consider which parts you'd like to torture him with (longish sentences with gnarly words) and which you'd like to express a quickening pulse (shorter sentences). *2/* I'd add this to the previous sentence. Is there any particular reason why you can't directly say it was a bullet hole? I don't know the protag or his background but if there is a bullet hole then I'd have assume guns are a large part of this world, making it more likely Clement would recognise it for what it was: *'The shadows lingered, and in his peripheral view, he saw patches of grey fur, blooded from a bullet wound'.* It's the wound itself that would be causing bleeding. *3/* This slightly confused me. You say it was the same 'creature' (not human) from before but it's undergone a change. Generally, werewolves are humans that change into a wolf. Here we have human to wolf and wolf to what?
> 
> Be emphatic and definite. The words 'slightly' and 'trying' water down the imagery. Would a werewolf have trouble climbing onto a bed? Just how short is it! The bed 'groaned' so it wasn't failing to climb on the bed. *'The bed groaned, sheets pulled towards his feet, as the beast climbed ever closer to his face.' *I've taken a little more liberty than I normally would there, in the hope of helping with your question. 'Beast' is a more evocative word that 'thing' and 'closer to his face' is both intimate (and circumstantially) more frightening.
> 
> It should be a comma, not a full stop, even if the following word is capitalised. That goes for question marks and exclamation marks too, although exclamation marks are a no no in my book for fiction. The words or the sentence should convey the exclamation. We'd have to assume here that Clement often shows courage but in this instance it's absent. It just sits wrong for me. Rather than 'telling' us the emotion involved, show us the emotion involved: ' *"Go away," Clement said, voice cracking in a dry throat.'* Something along those lines.
> 
> Would the pressure stop? The weight of the werewolf would be consistent.
> 
> *1/* You've used 'that' here but we haven't yet been introduced to the idea it's blood. I'd have him flick on a bedside light earlier. This has been related to a nightmare and he's in bed. That means it's likely dark. Would he then be able to glance at his shirt (night-shirt?) and see blood? *2/* There's no merit in being indefinite at this point. You might as well spell it out for the reader. It's blood. My go to would be 'hot' and not 'warm', which is more evocative. If it hits his shoulder, how does it slide down his neck? I'd make that uncomfortably intimate too: *'Hot blood spilled onto his cheek and slid down his neck.'* *3/* I'm going to assume Clement bites his nails, which makes this ring true. If it's an indirect reference to 'biting nails' because he's fearful, I'd rethink that. It would come over as cartoony if it is. Again, to your original question. You want it to feel as visceral as you can make it. 'been through' is somewhat sedate. Something like 'pierced' or 'cut through' would be more visceral. 'Already' waters down the idea. *'If he had fingernails, they would have pierced the blankets.'* If for some reason I've read that wrong, the wolf would have 'claws', but I'm pretty sure you're talking about Clement ... I think.
> 
> *1/ *Again, slightly vague. 'seemed' and 'somewhat' are also words you want to try and cut right down on. 'Almost' and 'nearly' are another couple to keep your eyes out for. Only use them if they're truly warranted.* 'The shadow shrunk and Clement prayed it was leaving'.* *2/* You're quite right in differentiating between 'quiet' and 'silent'. Silence is the absence of sound altogether. The problem I have is 'grew quiet' does make it sound as if there is no more sound'. ' ... grew quieter' would rectify that but sounds awkward. ' ... quietened' would be better. A glance is a quick look but Clement is seeing detail, meaning it's not a glance. *'The heavy breathing quietened, and with what little strength he had, he looked ahead.'* I'd question what strength he needs to look (glance). You may be talking about 'inner strength' which does mean bravery, but there's no point in using two words when you can use one. I'd consider 'bravery'. I'm critiquing this as I go but I can't recall you mentioning Clement turned to lay on his stomach. Again, just to show how you can get rid of 'was': *'The creature had its back to him, spine visible through the thin skin.' *Why thin skin though? I think what you've done there is try and justify why he could see the spine, but you don't have to have thin skin for the spine to show. *'The creature had its back to him, spine visible through the dark skin.'* Which also adds a little detail. As I said earlier though, you need to have at least some light to justify being able to describe all this detail. Moonlight perhaps? Instead of flicking on a bedside lamp. It is a werewolf after all. *4/* Both these sentences begin with 'it' so I'd bring them together. Consider logistics carefully. As in Clement turning around, here you have the creature with its head bowed but then it turned and met his gaze. I'd also question 'carefully'. What does that mean and what does it look like? I'm trying to visualise it but I can't.  : *'It raised its head and met Clement’s wide eyes with a smile.' 5/ *Regardless of whether it's moonlight or lamplight, I doubt he'd be able to make out the exact condition of the teeth. 'Pristine' mean 'new', which is something most people don't possess, other than Hollywood stars. I'd Just lose that. I'd also lose the next line too. It feels an odd little detail considering the dimness of the light and Clement's state of mind. *6/* 'Were' is the cousin of 'was' and equally as egregious. You have it in both this and the previous sentence. You may be able to lose one easily by bringing the sentences together. Like I said, it's not about losing them ALL, it's about cutting down: ' *'No longer were jagged teeth in the mouth of the beast, but human teeth, its hands tucked tight against its chest, body shivering, despite the heat.' *I'd probably lose 'despite the heat' there. A shiver is associated with lots of things and no reader would immediately assume it was cold. They'd likely assume it was the fevered result of a transformation, as did I.
> 
> *1/ *'bright, pink tongue'. 'Bright' makes it sound almost luminescent and 'draped' gives it a huge scale. You've also doubled down on those teeth being perfect. I'd also bring in detail from the following sentence:* 'A tongue lolled over its teeth as it forced its back straight, eventually standing tall, head brushing the ceiling.' 2/ *I've mention logistics and this passage of sentences shows you need to consider more carefully what is going on and where things are placed. So much so that I can't really rewrite this because I'm not certain what's going on. 'It's head spun'. What does that mean? Which way is it facing now? 'smacked' is an uninteresting word and not very descriptive. 'against the lantern'. Where is this lantern? On the ceiling, yes? The problem is, I see lanterns as smallish and usually on a surface or on a wall, not on a ceiling. I know they can also hang from ceilings but because you've jumped around so much with the camera and I don't know for certain where in this space either Clement and the beast are, my visual senses are being thrown all over the shop! *3/* As I mentioned before, then how is Clement seeing anything at all? *4/* Wouldn't he just have one blanket? Surely he didn't gather up all his blankets. You don't need 'form'. 'nearly pulled the door off its hinges'. There it is again.  How small is this bedroom? How tall is Clement? Where is this creature stood? It sounds like there's no space at all between the end of the bed and the door.


Thank you so much! You've given me so much to work with. I will certainly practice removing all of my "was" words and getting a better idea of where things are in my scenes!


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

MBur1 said:


> Thank you so much! You've given me so much to work with. I will certainly practice removing all of my "was" words and getting a better idea of where things are in my scenes!


Not ALL was's, but most. I'd practice getting rid of them all just to get used to constructing sentences differently though, at least for a while. Same with 'were'.


----------



## taliland

TheMightyAz said:


> *1/ *The very first thing that jumps out at me is the use of 'was', something you want to curb a lot, more so here because you want impact. What do you mean by 'it's form was on the wall'? I'm assuming you mean it's shadow because later you say it's standing. The only reason I'm slightly confused is because you then go on to mention the shadow. I'm going to run with 'shadow' for the first sentence just to show how to get rid of 'was'. The sentence is always on the back foot 'was on the wall' and 'instead of being closely related to' for instance. At this point in the paragraph, why would something that isn't closely related to a wolf: '... instead of being closely related to a wolf', make Clement believe it was from his nightmares? It suggests only things other than wolves make Clement believe they're from his nightmares. *'The wolf cast a shadow on the wall. Not on all fours but standing as a human, back arched with its arms tucked in tight.'* Unless you come at the nightmare from an interesting angle, that part sounds slightly cliqued, and so I'd lose it. I've split it into two sentences because this would be an emotionally charged scene and shorter sentences create a faster pace. I've also brought in information from the other sentences.
> 
> *1/* This is where you can use nightmare comfortably: *'It had to be a nightmare.' 2/* Because I've removed Clement from the first paragraph, I'll add it here: *'Clement closed his eyes tight, clenching the blankets until his hands sweated and his body trembled' 3/ *I'd bring the last two sentences together. *'If it was only a dream then he'd be safe, and yet it felt like death'. *
> 
> *1/* *'**The shadow lingered, and in his peripheral view, he saw patches of grey fur.'* I'm focused mainly on showing how you can cut down on 'was'. 'Lingered' is far more evocative than 'was still there'. I've got to be honest, I'm struggling with this piece. Most of the time I don't find it too difficult to adjust and offer advice, but your question was about making it more terrifying. That's down to pacing, sentence structure and word choice, as well as a large dollop of atmosphere (also evoked by the latter). Because I try to work within the framework already established, it's quite difficult. I think you're rushing through this too quickly, which appears to go against my previous suggestion of shorter sentences to create a quicker pace, but it really doesn't. There are moments here that could hold more terror and which require more information. Terror tends to hold longer and focus the mind on each detail that terrifies. The moment would stretch out for Clement because he wants it to end, giving you the perfect opportunity to torture him longer. Consider which parts you'd like to torture him with (longish sentences with gnarly words) and which you'd like to express a quickening pulse (shorter sentences). *2/* I'd add this to the previous sentence. Is there any particular reason why you can't directly say it was a bullet hole? I don't know the protag or his background but if there is a bullet hole then I'd have assume guns are a large part of this world, making it more likely Clement would recognise it for what it was: *'The shadows lingered, and in his peripheral view, he saw patches of grey fur, blooded from a bullet wound'.* It's the wound itself that would be causing bleeding. *3/* This slightly confused me. You say it was the same 'creature' (not human) from before but it's undergone a change. Generally, werewolves are humans that change into a wolf. Here we have human to wolf and wolf to what?
> 
> Be emphatic and definite. The words 'slightly' and 'trying' water down the imagery. Would a werewolf have trouble climbing onto a bed? Just how short is it! The bed 'groaned' so it wasn't failing to climb on the bed. *'The bed groaned, sheets pulled towards his feet, as the beast climbed ever closer to his face.' *I've taken a little more liberty than I normally would there, in the hope of helping with your question. 'Beast' is a more evocative word that 'thing' and 'closer to his face' is both intimate (and circumstantially) more frightening.
> 
> It should be a comma, not a full stop, even if the following word is capitalised. That goes for question marks and exclamation marks too, although exclamation marks are a no no in my book for fiction. The words or the sentence should convey the exclamation. We'd have to assume here that Clement often shows courage but in this instance it's absent. It just sits wrong for me. Rather than 'telling' us the emotion involved, show us the emotion involved: ' *"Go away," Clement said, voice cracking in a dry throat.'* Something along those lines.
> 
> Would the pressure stop? The weight of the werewolf would be consistent.
> 
> *1/* You've used 'that' here but we haven't yet been introduced to the idea it's blood. I'd have him flick on a bedside light earlier. This has been related to a nightmare and he's in bed. That means it's likely dark. Would he then be able to glance at his shirt (night-shirt?) and see blood? *2/* There's no merit in being indefinite at this point. You might as well spell it out for the reader. It's blood. My go to would be 'hot' and not 'warm', which is more evocative. If it hits his shoulder, how does it slide down his neck? I'd make that uncomfortably intimate too: *'Hot blood spilled onto his cheek and slid down his neck.'* *3/* I'm going to assume Clement bites his nails, which makes this ring true. If it's an indirect reference to 'biting nails' because he's fearful, I'd rethink that. It would come over as cartoony if it is. Again, to your original question. You want it to feel as visceral as you can make it. 'been through' is somewhat sedate. Something like 'pierced' or 'cut through' would be more visceral. 'Already' waters down the idea. *'If he had fingernails, they would have pierced the blankets.'* If for some reason I've read that wrong, the wolf would have 'claws', but I'm pretty sure you're talking about Clement ... I think.
> 
> *1/ *Again, slightly vague. 'seemed' and 'somewhat' are also words you want to try and cut right down on. 'Almost' and 'nearly' are another couple to keep your eyes out for. Only use them if they're truly warranted.* 'The shadow shrunk and Clement prayed it was leaving'.* *2/* You're quite right in differentiating between 'quiet' and 'silent'. Silence is the absence of sound altogether. The problem I have is 'grew quiet' does make it sound as if there is no more sound'. ' ... grew quieter' would rectify that but sounds awkward. ' ... quietened' would be better. A glance is a quick look but Clement is seeing detail, meaning it's not a glance. *'The heavy breathing quietened, and with what little strength he had, he looked ahead.'* I'd question what strength he needs to look (glance). You may be talking about 'inner strength' which does mean bravery, but there's no point in using two words when you can use one. I'd consider 'bravery'. I'm critiquing this as I go but I can't recall you mentioning Clement turned to lay on his stomach. Again, just to show how you can get rid of 'was': *'The creature had its back to him, spine visible through the thin skin.' *Why thin skin though? I think what you've done there is try and justify why he could see the spine, but you don't have to have thin skin for the spine to show. *'The creature had its back to him, spine visible through the dark skin.'* Which also adds a little detail. As I said earlier though, you need to have at least some light to justify being able to describe all this detail. Moonlight perhaps? Instead of flicking on a bedside lamp. It is a werewolf after all. *4/* Both these sentences begin with 'it' so I'd bring them together. Consider logistics carefully. As in Clement turning around, here you have the creature with its head bowed but then it turned and met his gaze. I'd also question 'carefully'. What does that mean and what does it look like? I'm trying to visualise it but I can't.  : *'It raised its head and met Clement’s wide eyes with a smile.' 5/ *Regardless of whether it's moonlight or lamplight, I doubt he'd be able to make out the exact condition of the teeth. 'Pristine' mean 'new', which is something most people don't possess, other than Hollywood stars. I'd Just lose that. I'd also lose the next line too. It feels an odd little detail considering the dimness of the light and Clement's state of mind. *6/* 'Were' is the cousin of 'was' and equally as egregious. You have it in both this and the previous sentence. You may be able to lose one easily by bringing the sentences together. Like I said, it's not about losing them ALL, it's about cutting down: ' *'No longer were jagged teeth in the mouth of the beast, but human teeth, its hands tucked tight against its chest, body shivering, despite the heat.' *I'd probably lose 'despite the heat' there. A shiver is associated with lots of things and no reader would immediately assume it was cold. They'd likely assume it was the fevered result of a transformation, as did I.
> 
> *1/ *'bright, pink tongue'. 'Bright' makes it sound almost luminescent and 'draped' gives it a huge scale. You've also doubled down on those teeth being perfect. I'd also bring in detail from the following sentence:* 'A tongue lolled over its teeth as it forced its back straight, eventually standing tall, head brushing the ceiling.' 2/ *I've mention logistics and this passage of sentences shows you need to consider more carefully what is going on and where things are placed. So much so that I can't really rewrite this because I'm not certain what's going on. 'It's head spun'. What does that mean? Which way is it facing now? 'smacked' is an uninteresting word and not very descriptive. 'against the lantern'. Where is this lantern? On the ceiling, yes? The problem is, I see lanterns as smallish and usually on a surface or on a wall, not on a ceiling. I know they can also hang from ceilings but because you've jumped around so much with the camera and I don't know for certain where in this space either Clement and the beast are, my visual senses are being thrown all over the shop! *3/* As I mentioned before, then how is Clement seeing anything at all? *4/* Wouldn't he just have one blanket? Surely he didn't gather up all his blankets. You don't need 'form'. 'nearly pulled the door off its hinges'. There it is again.  How small is this bedroom? How tall is Clement? Where is this creature stood? It sounds like there's no space at all between the end of the bed and the door.


This is gold! Hearing something like curb the use of was, is one thing, but seeing the application and effect makes such a difference.


----------



## taliland

I'm at the point where I question every word and decision. The more I learn, the less I know, and I want to go back to being under the Dunning-Kruger Effect. Not really, but it was nice to believe that I was somewhat competent.
When I wrote the snipped below, I thought it was okay, and now I feel like everything is wrong. I know it's okay to break the rules sometimes, but I'm unsure when. I feel like I'm breaking things that were fine and missing things that need fixing. Please help! I think everything in red is "breaking the rules".

***

Everything about The Outpost was self-contradicting, a living example of an oxymoron. It bustled, alive with the smells of frying onions, notes of ginger, clove, and sandalwood - layered over a musk base of sweaty men and horse piss.

The humid air was thick with noise. I drew my hood to cover my face, the drum of my steps barely audible against the gutless belly of an aeroplane.

"Sorry!" I apologised, trying to avoid the gaze of a large, imposing figure.

"Look where you're going..." He bellowed, his words trailing off at the end.

"Mam," he said and tipped his hat.

Another contradiction, from his black cattleman boots to the sword at his side. Some cross between a dystopian cowboy and a knight. He belonged to a faction called The West, headed by Walker Morgan. They ran the outpost, once an airport, under old school values of honour. Walker portrayed himself as a protector of the innocent and upheld his manifesto called 'The Way of the Cowboy'.

***


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

taliland said:


> I'm at the point where I question every word and decision. The more I learn, the less I know, and I want to go back to being under the Dunning-Kruger Effect. Not really, but it was nice to believe that I was somewhat competent.
> When I wrote the snipped below, I thought it was okay, and now I feel like everything is wrong. I know it's okay to break the rules sometimes, but I'm unsure when. I feel like I'm breaking things that were fine and missing things that need fixing. Please help! I think everything in red is "breaking the rules".
> 
> ***
> 
> Everything about The Outpost was self-contradicting, a living example of an oxymoron. It bustled, alive with the smells of frying onions, notes of ginger, clove, and sandalwood - layered over a musk base of sweaty men and horse piss.


Why 'self-contradiction'? How is it different from 'contradiction'? *'Everything about The Outpost was a contradiction, a living example of an oxymoron.'*


taliland said:


> The humid air was thick with noise. I drew my hood to cover my face, the drum of my steps barely audible against the gutless belly of an aeroplane.


There's nothing wrong with that. Remember, it's about 'curbing' the use of 'was', not eradicating it entirely. Here it feels natural and apt. 


taliland said:


> "Sorry!" I apologised, trying to avoid the gaze of a large, imposing figure.


It's better to stick with 'said' and 'asked' largely because they're invisible words the reader takes in without actually reading them. They don't interfere with the flow. It's fine to occasionally use something else if you feel it's really needed. Here though, it's preceded by the word 'Sorry', an apology, making it redundant. If there's the possibility that it may get confusing because many people are talking, then use 'said' coupled with either the name, the sex or 'I', as you have done here: *' "Sorry," I said, trying to avoid the gaze of the imposing figure.'* I'd lose 'large' because 'imposing' expresses something similar anyway and any time you can avoid doubling up on adjectives, do it. Nothing here breaks the rules per se. This is more about tightening and clarifying. 


taliland said:


> "Look where you're going..." He bellowed, his words trailing off at the end.


Same as above, although I could make a better case for the inclusion of 'bellowed' than the previous 'apologised'. Do it rarely though. Often it's a sign that more description needs to be added or the actions/words haven't conveyed what's needed. Again for tightening purposes: 'at the end' is unnecessary detail. If it trails off, it's by default 'at the end'. 


taliland said:


> "Mam," he said and tipped his hat.
> 
> Another contradiction, from his black cattleman boots to the sword at his side. Some cross between a dystopian cowboy and a knight. He belonged to a faction called The West, headed by Walker Morgan. They ran the outpost, once an airport, under old school values of honour. Walker portrayed himself as a protector of the innocent and upheld his manifesto called 'The Way of the Cowboy'.


I can't see much wrong here either. I'd maybe consider changing the punctuation on the first two sentences and changing 'some' to 'a' but that's about it. *'Another contradiction, from his black cattleman boots to the sword at his side; a cross between a dystopian cowboy and a knight'*


taliland said:


> ***


----------



## VRanger

taliland said:


> I'm at the point where I question every word and decision. The more I learn, the less I know, and I want to go back to being under the Dunning-Kruger Effect. Not really, but it was nice to believe that I was somewhat competent.
> When I wrote the snipped below, I thought it was okay, and now I feel like everything is wrong. I know it's okay to break the rules sometimes, but I'm unsure when. I feel like I'm breaking things that were fine and missing things that need fixing. Please help! I think everything in red is "breaking the rules".
> 
> ***
> 
> Everything about The Outpost was self-contradicting, a living example of an oxymoron. It bustled, alive with the smells of frying onions, notes of ginger, clove, and sandalwood - layered over a musk base of sweaty men and horse piss.
> 
> The humid air was thick with noise. I drew my hood to cover my face, the drum of my steps barely audible against the gutless belly of an aeroplane.
> 
> "Sorry!" I apologised, trying to avoid the gaze of a large, imposing figure.
> 
> "Look where you're going..." He bellowed, his words trailing off at the end.
> 
> "Mam," he said and tipped his hat.
> 
> Another contradiction, from his black cattleman boots to the sword at his side. Some cross between a dystopian cowboy and a knight. He belonged to a faction called The West, headed by Walker Morgan. They ran the outpost, once an airport, under old school values of honour. Walker portrayed himself as a protector of the innocent and upheld his manifesto called 'The Way of the Cowboy'.
> 
> ***


You can always fiddle with sentences, but there is nothing really wrong with this. For the "was", you can drop it entirely to make an opening clause: "The humid air thick with noise, I drew ..."

Or go a different way entirely: "The thick, humid air only slightly dampened the cacophony of noise ..."

You might indicate what she's apologizing for. ;-)

The point is this is typical early draft stuff for pretty much everyone, so don't sweat it.


----------



## Matchu

The thread is confusing - but I would try to not reference ‘contradictory’ & then ‘oxymoron’ in sequential sentences by way of ‘explanation.’  I might draft out the repetition - if I could see the light.  Same ways Dunning-thingybore is now in the hands of the enemy kind of thing


----------



## taliland

TheMightyAz said:


> 'Everything about The Outpost was a contradiction, a living example of an oxymoron.'


Thanks. I was getting caught up in not repeating the same word too often and made it worse.  Much better! Especially in this context. 

I will drop the apologised and keep the bellowed (just this once ). It makes perfect sense. My instincts were right, but it helps to understand why. Like a child being told too much ice cream is bad (how can anything so wonderful be wrong), then learning about diabetes.

Large and imposing (again with the ice cream), I so badly want both, but I know...diabetes. 

The last part felt more like telling, something I've been working on limiting. But I think it's okay sometimes.  



> *'Another contradiction, from his black cattleman boots to the sword at his side; a cross between a dystopian cowboy and a knight'*


Thanks, it flows much better. 

P.S. I've been reading some of your work, and I'm a massive fan of your style.


----------



## taliland

VRanger said:


> The humid air thick with noise, I drew


I like the one above. I stared at the was for about 5 min and had no idea how to get rid of it.  

Also, I saw her bumping into a man in my head and knew my character would be quick to apologise, but the reader can't see the pictures in my head (hello). I can always change the dialogue order to make it clear. 


> The point is this is typical early draft stuff for pretty much everyone, so don't sweat it.


So I'm not the only one. Phew!


----------



## taliland

Matchu said:


> The thread is confusing - but I would try to not reference ‘contradictory’ & then ‘oxymoron’ in sequential sentences by way of ‘explanation.’  I might draft out the repetition - if I could see the light.  Same ways Dunning-thingybore is now in the hands of the enemy kind of thing


So it's almost like saying "large, imposing" if I'm not confused? 
I will definitely think about it. 
I want to defend the sequential sentences by saying, "but it's not just contradictory, it's contradictory, and then when you think it can't be any more contradictory, it becomes even more contradictory..."  (Did I just prove your point?)

Plus, I'm not here to defend anything. I'm here to learn.


----------



## Matchu

I’m only saying ‘there is no need to make a point twice.’

if I missed nuance I’m sozzy


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

taliland said:


> Thanks. I was getting caught up in not repeating the same word too often and made it worse.  Much better! Especially in this context.
> 
> I will drop the apologised and keep the bellowed (just this once ). It makes perfect sense. My instincts were right, but it helps to understand why. Like a child being told too much ice cream is bad (how can anything so wonderful be wrong), then learning about diabetes.
> 
> Large and imposing (again with the ice cream), I so badly want both, but I know...diabetes.
> 
> The last part felt more like telling, something I've been working on limiting. But I think it's okay sometimes.
> 
> 
> Thanks, it flows much better.
> 
> P.S. I've been reading some of your work, and I'm a massive fan of your style.


The question about showing versus telling is a difficult one. It depends on the reason. For instance, if we don't yet know the protag fully, perhaps describing what he packs, how he packs and how hurriedly he packs, could tell us something about him. On the other hand, if we know him reasonably well already, then simply saying 'he packed and left for Vegas' is enough. There maybe something on the journey there that prepares us for what's ahead. In which case you can show, even if it's just building mood or tension etc. If it's not necessary then 'he arrived at Vegas in the early morning' is enough. There are thousands and thousands of different situations and it's up to you to decide what you want to accomplish with a scene or what you don't need a scene to accomplish.


----------



## VRanger

taliland said:


> I like the one above. I stared at the was for about 5 min and had no idea how to get rid of it.


They aren't always easy to write around, but the more practice you get at it, the more ways you find to do it.


----------



## taliland

Matchu made a good point:


Matchu said:


> I’m only saying ‘there is no need to make a point twice.’



I am dropping the sequential part: *Everything about The Outpost was a contradiction, a living example of an oxymoron.*

Partly because of the above reason and partly because it's a language-specific term. Someone (not on this forum) might read over the word and vaguely remember something about it from high school English.

My question:* Is there ever an argument for making the same point twice?*

If I didn't want to risk sounding pretentious, could it be justified with the following additional context?
The title of the story:  Beautiful Haunting​The protag's emotional state at the time: conflicted, both relieved and disappointed, upon discovering something about herself.​The world: The aftermath of a war-torn world, with a population of less than a billion​This specific scene: An abandoned airport partly reclaimed by nature used as a base of operation by dystopian cowboys​"The Outpost" (meaning a remote part) while it's probably one of the most populated parts of the world.​The abandoned aeroplanes with no use other than shelter and the horses being the primary method of transport​And the list goes on...​
Or should you always default to being concise with telling and then showing with your words?

My last question is a bit off-topic for this forum. When something becomes a place name like "The Outpost", how should it be capitalised or not?


----------



## VRanger

taliland said:


> Matchu made a good point:
> 
> 
> I am dropping the sequential part: *Everything about The Outpost was a contradiction, a living example of an oxymoron.*
> 
> Partly because of the above reason and partly because it's a language-specific term. Someone (not on this forum) might read over the word and vaguely remember something about it from high school English.
> 
> My question:* Is there ever an argument for making the same point twice?*
> 
> If I didn't want to risk sounding pretentious, could it be justified with the following additional context?
> The title of the story:  Beautiful Haunting​The protag's emotional state at the time: conflicted, both relieved and disappointed, upon discovering something about herself.​The world: The aftermath of a war-torn world, with a population of less than a billion​This specific scene: An abandoned airport partly reclaimed by nature used as a base of operation by dystopian cowboys​"The Outpost" (meaning a remote part) while it's probably one of the most populated parts of the world.​The abandoned aeroplanes with no use other than shelter and the horses being the primary method of transport​And the list goes on...​
> Or should you always default to being concise with telling and then showing with your words?
> 
> My last question is a bit off-topic for this forum. When something becomes a place name like "The Outpost", how should it be capitalised or not?


Virtually all of those are not making the same point twice, but giving more detail, and that's fine. By the way, I'm fine with your top sentence above living with both contradiction and oxymoron.

And to answer your question: YES, there are times to belabor, repeat, and drive home a point. ;-) Like most things in writing you want to pick your spots, but it's not uncommon to find a passage like:



> He was wrong. Dead wrong. So wrong he couldn't imagine he'd ever been this damned wrong before. About anything. How could he have been so stupid? He knew better, and he knew that.



Something like that is also where you can get away with using the same word over and over again near to itself, when you use it to drive home a point, or for humor ... which in context, the above example might be used for.

Finish it up with:


> Why would _anyone _go ahead and put on their sock when they knew they had a hangnail?!


----------



## Matchu

Hi @taliland 

All  I can find is this section - that you posted:

_Everything about The Outpost was self-contradicting, a living example of an oxymoron. It bustled, alive with the smells of frying onions, notes of ginger, clove, and sandalwood - layered over a musk base of sweaty men and horse piss.

The humid air was thick with noise. I drew my hood to cover my face, the drum of my steps barely audible against the gutless belly of an aeroplane.

"Sorry!" I apologised, trying to avoid the gaze of a large, imposing figure.

"Look where you're going..." He bellowed, his words trailing off at the end.

"Mam," he said and tipped his hat.

..._

My advice, for what it's worth, would be to omit any reference to contradiction or to oxymorons - and begin with your words

 'The outpost bustled...'

- only for me - the extract recalls previous writer examples where the author says:

 'This was a very frightening situation - and then he goes on, or he continues by describing a very frightening situation in around 200 words...and I am suggesting 'frightening' or in your example 'contradictory' should emerge from the mind of the reader...

Just one idea...there's no perfect road


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

taliland said:


> Matchu made a good point:
> 
> 
> I am dropping the sequential part: *Everything about The Outpost was a contradiction, a living example of an oxymoron.*
> 
> Partly because of the above reason and partly because it's a language-specific term. Someone (not on this forum) might read over the word and vaguely remember something about it from high school English.
> 
> My question:* Is there ever an argument for making the same point twice?*
> 
> If I didn't want to risk sounding pretentious, could it be justified with the following additional context?
> The title of the story:  Beautiful Haunting​The protag's emotional state at the time: conflicted, both relieved and disappointed, upon discovering something about herself.​The world: The aftermath of a war-torn world, with a population of less than a billion​This specific scene: An abandoned airport partly reclaimed by nature used as a base of operation by dystopian cowboys​"The Outpost" (meaning a remote part) while it's probably one of the most populated parts of the world.​The abandoned aeroplanes with no use other than shelter and the horses being the primary method of transport​And the list goes on...​
> Or should you always default to being concise with telling and then showing with your words?
> 
> My last question is a bit off-topic for this forum. When something becomes a place name like "The Outpost", how should it be capitalised or not?


There's nothing wrong with reiterating if it brings something new to the table. Just don't do it too often. I would do this sort of thing a lot just to give myself an alternative in the rewrites and then delete one or amalgamate the two in some way. In this instance, I'd likely do what you've done and remove it. It's only really defining what you've already said, not adding extra weight to it. There's a difference between 'He was huge, extremely large' and 'He was huge, the size of a double decker bus', if you get my drift.


----------



## Matchu

Or create a new adjective?  I hope it's an adjective or this might be my last visit.  

An oxymoron of filthy wranglers and perfect doilies laid upon the white table spread, ummm.


----------



## VRanger

Matchu said:


> Or create a new adjective?  I hope it's an adjective or this might be my last visit.
> 
> An oxymoron of filthy wranglers and perfect doilies laid upon the white table spread, ummm.


We could REALLY use some new adjectives. Some of the old ones have worn out their welcome.


----------



## CatOfNoir

Hello all, it has been a while since I posted and there's a scene I'm working on in a medieval vampire based story of mine. I want to make sure the scene below read clearly. I have a good mental image of how it played out but I'm not so sure my writing paints the image coherently. Any thoughts are appreciated and welcomed.

---

The blade pierced Josephine chest, blood spilling from her lips like tree sap, gelatinous and sticky.



“It’s over kin of the damned,” Hilda proclaimed. But as she tried retracting the blade, the creature gripped her arm with ferocious strength.



“Yes, it certainly is.” Josephine sputtered, blood still flowing from her mouth in a torrent of gore. “You fared well.”



Shock froze Hilda as the blood pooled beneath her feet forming a crimson garden of chaos, admist the setting sun. Sanguine vines and budding stems grew from the putrid field, giving way to budding chrysanthemums that pulsated, writhing like a beating heart. The hairs on the back of Kliff’s neck stood on end at the horrifying sight, the walls of the cage of blood he was trapped in spreading and obscuring his sight.  Hilda, amongst the rotted meadow, amongst the sanguine flowers unfurling as they reached full bloom, looked to Kliff and whispered words he’d never hear as the barrier blocked out the sight of his commander and a deafening explosion sprang forth.


----------



## taliland

Matchu said:


> Hi @taliland
> 
> All  I can find is this section - that you posted:
> 
> _Everything about The Outpost was self-contradicting, a living example of an oxymoron. It bustled, alive with the smells of frying onions, notes of ginger, clove, and sandalwood - layered over a musk base of sweaty men and horse piss.
> 
> The humid air was thick with noise. I drew my hood to cover my face, the drum of my steps barely audible against the gutless belly of an aeroplane.
> 
> "Sorry!" I apologised, trying to avoid the gaze of a large, imposing figure.
> 
> "Look where you're going..." He bellowed, his words trailing off at the end.
> 
> "Mam," he said and tipped his hat.
> 
> ..._
> 
> My advice, for what it's worth, would be to omit any reference to contradiction or to oxymorons - and begin with your words
> 
> 'The outpost bustled...'
> 
> - only for me - the extract recalls previous writer examples where the author says:
> 
> 'This was a very frightening situation - and then he goes on, or he continues by describing a very frightening situation in around 200 words...and I am suggesting 'frightening' or in your example 'contradictory' should emerge from the mind of the reader...
> 
> Just one idea...there's no perfect road



*F my life!* I think you're right. 

Sigh! I'm about 5400 words past this part, so for now, I'll just let it sit. 
I am *clearly confused,* and your sad bunny is *awfully cute.*


----------



## CatOfNoir

Meow... (Sorry to bump, but I haven't gotten any feedback on my previous post on if it reads decently or not...)


----------



## VRanger

CatOfNoir said:


> Meow... (Sorry to bump, but I haven't gotten any feedback on my previous post on if it reads decently or not...)


Normally TheMightyAz gets around to these. I did have a couple of thoughts. I'm not sure how Josephine is able to speak with a "torrent of gore" "still flowing from her mouth". It seems to me you got a little overeager with one imagined bit of action and left it in conflict with another. Other than that, you might be adjective heavy there. I'd recommend examining all those adjectives and strike about half of them. You're eager to provoke a visual of the scene, and that's clear. That's a good goal, but you don't want to overdo it.

For example, you've got "sanguine" twice in one paragraph ... definitely something to avoid.


----------



## Matchu

Hello @CatOfNoir 

This is what I would do:

_The blade pierced Josephine chest,* [another clause inserted here involving 'the heart.'  Plus another sentence here including 'veins.'] *blood spilling from her lips like tree sap, gelatinous and sticky._



“It’s over kin of the damned,” Hilda proclaimed. But as she tried retracting the blade, the creature gripped her arm with ferocious strength.



“Yes, it certainly is.” Josephine sputtered, blood still flowing from her mouth in a torrent of gore. “You fared well.”



Shock froze Hilda as the blood pooled beneath her feet forming a crimson garden of chaos, admist the setting sun. * Less than effective, re-write.*

Sanguine vines and budding stems grew from the putrid field, giving way to budding chrysanthemums that pulsated, writhing like a beating heart. The hairs on the back of Kliff’s neck stood on end at the horrifying sight, the walls of the cage of blood he was trapped in spreading and obscuring his sight. Hilda, amongst the rotted meadow, amongst the sanguine flowers unfurling as they reached full bloom, looked to Kliff and whispered words he’d never hear as the barrier blocked out the sight of his commander and a deafening explosion sprang forth.


*I would re-write or draft upon that entire paragraph, probably until it fills a page.  The whole scene can be written out.  Clarity has to be achieved - in the initial sweep of the eye I didn't even perceive the conceit (I think that's the right word).  The idea of flowers rising from the blood and a character being encaged among writhing blood lilies blah blah - is brilliant.  Keep on keeping on.*


----------



## CatOfNoir

VRanger said:


> Normally TheMightyAz gets around to these. I did have a couple of thoughts. I'm not sure how Josephine is able to speak with a "torrent of gore" "still flowing from her mouth". It seems to me you got a little overeager with one imagined bit of action and left it in conflict with another. Other than that, you might be adjective heavy there. I'd recommend examining all those adjectives and strike about half of them. You're eager to provoke a visual of the scene, and that's clear. That's a good goal, but you don't want to overdo it.
> 
> For example, you've got "sanguine" twice in one paragraph ... definitely something to avoid.


Thank you for the feedback. I feel like I often overdo it with adjectives or don't use them enough at all, leading to a rather boring scene... It's hard for me to find the sweet spot. I'll work on it!


----------



## CatOfNoir

Matchu said:


> Hello @CatOfNoir
> 
> This is what I would do:
> 
> _The blade pierced Josephine chest,* [another clause inserted here involving 'the heart.'  Plus another sentence here including 'veins.'] *blood spilling from her lips like tree sap, gelatinous and sticky._
> 
> 
> 
> “It’s over kin of the damned,” Hilda proclaimed. But as she tried retracting the blade, the creature gripped her arm with ferocious strength.
> 
> 
> 
> “Yes, it certainly is.” Josephine sputtered, blood still flowing from her mouth in a torrent of gore. “You fared well.”
> 
> 
> 
> Shock froze Hilda as the blood pooled beneath her feet forming a crimson garden of chaos, admist the setting sun. * Less than effective, re-write.*
> 
> Sanguine vines and budding stems grew from the putrid field, giving way to budding chrysanthemums that pulsated, writhing like a beating heart. The hairs on the back of Kliff’s neck stood on end at the horrifying sight, the walls of the cage of blood he was trapped in spreading and obscuring his sight. Hilda, amongst the rotted meadow, amongst the sanguine flowers unfurling as they reached full bloom, looked to Kliff and whispered words he’d never hear as the barrier blocked out the sight of his commander and a deafening explosion sprang forth.
> 
> 
> *I would re-write or draft upon that entire paragraph, probably until it fills a page.  The whole scene can be written out.  Clarity has to be achieved - in the initial sweep of the eye I didn't even perceive the conceit (I think that's the right word).  The idea of flowers rising from the blood and a character being encaged among writhing blood lilies blah blah - is brilliant.  Keep on keeping on.*


The reason I think I kept it short is because this little bit I posted is concluding the fight scene, but I agree that it lacks impact and is pretty vague overall. I'll work on rewriting parts and fleshing it out a bit. Thank you so much for your input!


----------



## Matchu

Hi @CatOfNoir.  

Long or short - the principle is ‘sense’ - as tutors once scribbled across every one of my own writes, (the possible fictional version of ‘me’)

Obvs, now I have achieved ‘sense’, chi, karma & and the enlightenment.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

CatOfNoir said:


> The blade pierced Josephine chest, blood spilling from her lips like tree sap, gelatinous and sticky.


I can see you're putting in overtime to come up with something new and fresh. The trouble is you've doubled up on the description of blood, making your metaphor appear less confident. The problem occurred because you've used 'like tree sap', which immediately throws up a distinct colour (not red) and in order to rectify that you've added the consistency to guide the reader. This isn't building on the metaphor, this is defining it. Metaphors should be able to stand alone. You have to make a choice: either go with the metaphor alone or only the definition. You could rewrite it slightly to bring it together:* '... blood spilling from her lips, as gelatinous and sticky as tree sap' *which removes the obvious addition of a definition, but I'd then question the metaphor itself. Does it really bring anything to the table? This is actually the sort of sentence and conundrum I face often in my own work and the sort of sentence I'd pour over for a long time. I'd usually leave it as is but then eventually, and reluctantly write: *'The blade pierced Josephine's chest, blood spilling from her lips.' *It's at that point I'd ask myself another question: does the use of the gerund make it feel too immediate? Knife goes into chest and immediately blood pours from lips. Surely there would be a moment before any aftereffect takes place. You can add distance (passing of time) by splitting the sentence into two. *'The blade pierced Josephine's chest. Thick blood spilled from her lips.' *and add back in a simplified description of its consistency just to give the sentence a little length and a better rhythm. The 'i's works nicely together there (th*i*ck/sp*i*lled/l*i*ps). 


CatOfNoir said:


> “It’s over kin of the damned,” Hilda proclaimed. But as she tried retracting the blade, the creature gripped her arm with ferocious strength.


I'd change that to 'Josephine'. It feels odd to refer to her impersonally as 'the creature' considering the context and flow of this section. 


CatOfNoir said:


> “Yes, it certainly is.” Josephine sputtered, blood still flowing from her mouth in a torrent of gore. “You fared well.”


'Torrent' looks out of place there. It's too big an idea to associate with blood running from her mouth, and 'gore' feels like an unnecessary addition. Do you need 'yes'? 'It certainly is' does the job well enough:* 'It certainly is,' Josephine sputtered, blood still flowing from her mouth.'* 


CatOfNoir said:


> *1/* Shock froze Hilda as the blood pooled beneath her feet forming a crimson garden of chaos, admist the setting sun. *2/* Sanguine vines and *budding* stems grew from the putrid field, giving way to *budding* chrysanthemums that pulsated, writhing like a beating heart. *3/* The hairs on the back of Kliff’s neck stood on end at the horrifying sight, the walls of the cage of blood he was trapped in spreading and obscuring his sight.  *4/ *Hilda, amongst the rotted meadow, amongst the sanguine flowers*(,)* unfurling as they reached full bloom, looked to Kliff and whispered words he’d never hear as the barrier blocked out the sight of his commander and a deafening explosion sprang forth.


*1/* 'amidst the setting sun' again feels like an afterthought because of the way it dangles at the end of the sentence. I'm not quite sure whether the day is actually dying or whether this is part of a metaphor for the pooling blood. If it's a metaphor then I'd change 'the' to 'a'. If it's not I'd change this to *'Shock froze Hilda as the blood pooled beneath her feet and, as the sun began to set, formed a crimson garden of chaos.' *The problem with 'crimson' in association with blood is it's something of a cliché at this point. Perhaps move it into the second sentence and associate it with what's growing. *2/* This feels overladen with adjectives. 'Sanguine' does also mean red, but it's first definition is 'optimistic or positive, especially in an apparently bad or difficult situation,' which I'm assuming you've used to give it duel purpose. This is a 'difficult situation' ... but 'optimistic' and 'positive' fight the general feel of the section. 'Putrid' works there well I think. Does a 'beating heart' writhe? What flowers do these stems belong too? The vines?: *'Vines sprouted from the putrid field, giving way to budding chrysanthemums that pulsated and writhed about her ankles.'* *3/* I take it Kliff as already been placed next to Hilda in the previous section, so, although that leaps out here, it's only because of the lack of context. Tonally, 'stood on end' fits something like The Hobbit but here feels wrong. We know what's going on and that it's 'horrifying' so that can be removed. It's what's grown from the blood that's surrounding him and whilst 'cage of blood' sounds nice, it doesn't quite work: *'The hairs on Kliff's neck bristled as the cage of plants imprisoned him, obscuring the world (or 'blotting out the world'* which I prefer for some reason*)'.* I think it's more interesting to tell us what he can't see rather than simply he can't see. *4/* You've used 'cage' and so I feel as if I'm missing something that mirrors it. I think the vines are more interesting in this regard. The chrysanthemums don't quite fit the idea of meshing and creeping. Perhaps consider a different plant or perhaps consider what type of vine they'll eventually become and have _them_ blooming. Would the lack of sight mute what the commander could hear? It's the thickening foliage that would do that, not his lack of sight. *'Hilda, amongst the rotted meadow, amongst the thickening foliage, whispered words Kliff would never hear, and a deafening explosion rang across the valley.' * 

As always, I've tried to offer alternatives and suggestions pertaining to the way you've framed it. I'd consider all the senses here. Smell seems an obvious missed opportunity, as does touch.


----------



## alpacinoutd

Does this work?

James staggered to his feet, squinting against the rising sun whose rays fanned out through the tree branches. The liquor from the night before still flowed through his veins, clouding the world in a haze. The saloon was strange and the people there were even stranger. He drank the night away and took off towards the woods until his legs gave away. He'd collapsed near a river bank and sank into slumber. In his dream, the woman from the saloon, the one with gold-coated teeth, kept staring at him. James woke to the sound of some horses whinnying into the early morning air. He touched his jacket and pants, his hands were soaked in mud. He shook himself but the mud wouldn't come off. He wrinkled his nose. _It's a strange place, Nebraska! Even the mud here is strange, stickier, stinkier. _

He started towards home. _Home! but is it? _The sun crawled higher in the sky, wrapping the woods in a golden haze. Images from the night before intruded into his thoughts. _Who was that woman with gold-plated teeth? Why did she keep staring at me? _He reached a field at the center of which stood a cottage. Behind it was an empty pool. As James walked closer to the pool, a pungent smell assaulted his nostrils. A group of ravens had gathered around a human corpse, thrusting their beaks into its flesh. James covered his nose. _Welcome to Nebraska, 1885! _He reached for his revolver, cocked the gun, shot into the air and was shocked to see the ravens continue indifferently to feast on the body. Only one of the big birds tilted its head, stared at James.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> Does this work?
> 
> *1/* James staggered to his feet, squinting against the rising sun whose rays fanned out through the tree branches. *2/* The liquor from the night before still flowed through his veins, clouding the world in a haze. *3/* The saloon was strange and the people there were even stranger. *4/* He'd drank the night away and took off towards the woods until his legs gave away. He'd collapsed near a river bank and sank into slumber. *5/* In his dream, the woman from the saloon, the one with gold-coated teeth, kept staring at him. *6/* James woke to the sound of some horses whinnying into the early morning air. *7/* *He (1)* touched his jacket and pants, his hands were soaked in mud. *8/* *He (2)* shook himself but the mud wouldn't come off. *He (3)* wrinkled his nose. _It's a strange place, Nebraska! Even the mud here is strange, stickier, stinkier. _


*1/* I always go on about the logistics of an image, the way each element flows logically and naturally from the source, using associated words and movement. Consider 'fanned out'. What image does that throw up? Is it straight? If the light source was within the tree itself then 'fanned out' would fit, but you're talking about a light source 93 million miles away. I'm not keen on 'whose' there either. Would the light be going through the branches or around the branches? By being specific, you've created a problem for yourself: *'James staggered to his feet, squinting against the rising sun, its rays piercing the trees.' 2/ *Sometimes you add a little more when a little more isn't necessary. I'm not going to say what that little extra is this time. Let's just say it's using one of your favourite words. *3/* Give me context for 'strange'. What does it mean when related to a saloon? Not only that but the people are even stranger. We have an unspecified strangeness that we're meant to use as an indication of another unspecified strangeness. I've got no idea what I'm looking at. I'd consider losing it. I see no relevance for it, unless you give it context. *4/* At this point you're thinking back so the 'had' should be here, not in the next sentence. What you do quite often is 'tell' and not 'show'. Here, you're just giving us a synopsis of what happened. This could be a full scene of him drinking at the bar, explaining why it felt strange and why he decided to head for the woods. These are moments to expand on the protag and give the reader a little incite on how he/she thinks. *5/* This is a bit mazy and slightly messy. It's because you've tried to cram in too much. It might read better if you add in emdashes instead of commas, although I'd personally make it two sentences: *'In his dream, a woman from the saloon--the one with gold-coated teeth-- kept staring at him. *We do not know the woman so it's 'a woman' but once you've introduced her it's 'the one'. *6/* You don't need 'some'. It sounds awkward. 'into the early morning air'. In order to establish he slept until morning, you've added this extra detail at the end. 'into' is an odd choice of word. It's as if the horses are fully aware of what they're doing. This is added to by 'air'. So, the horses didn't just whinny, they whinnied 'into' the 'air'.* 'James woke in the morning to the sound of horses whinnying'.* *7/* Consider the consistency of mud and the passing of time. 'Soaked' is a word associated with liquid. *'He touched his jacket and pants, his hands caked (or perhaps coated) in mud.' *Keep your eye on those 'were's and 'was's. In this case it turns this into two sentences. By removing the 'were', it reads as one. *8/* If you're covered in mud, do you shake yourself to get rid of it? I'm going to guess that the mud on his hands has come from his clothes but you've only said he touched them, bringing the focus of the mud to the hands. When you use 'touched' with no other indication of image, you immediately see fingertips. What you end up with (if you ignore 'touched') is him shaking his hands because that's the only place you've mentioned he has mud. He needs to climb to his feet, see mud on his clothes, try to brush it off with his hands, only to find his hands muddy too. Logistics. 




alpacinoutd said:


> He started towards home. _Home! but is it? _*1/ *The sun crawled higher in the sky, wrapping the woods in a golden haze. *2/* Images from the night before intruded into his thoughts. _Who was that woman with gold-plated teeth? Why did she keep staring at me? _He reached a field*(,) *at the center of which stood a cottage. Behind it was an empty pool. As James walked closer to the pool, a pungent smell assaulted his nostrils. A group of ravens had gathered around a human corpse, thrusting their beaks into its flesh. James covered his nose. _Welcome to Nebraska, 1885! _He reached for his revolver, cocked the gun, shot into the air and was shocked to see the ravens continue indifferently to feast on the body. Only one of the big birds tilted its head *and* stared at James.


*1/* 'wrapping the woods'. Think about how the sun interacts with the world. Has the sun got agency? Can it select a location to wrap around? You've used your favourite word again. *'The sun crawled higher in the sky, bathing the woods in gold.'* *2/* Can you 'intrude' outwards? You really have to consider words carefully, both in terms of movement and physics. This can either be *'Images from the night before intruded upon his thoughts'* or *'Images from the night before entered his thoughts'. *Because we haven't been told he's already thinking, making 'intruded' redundant, I'd go with the latter. 

There needs to be more. The reader needs to be there, feeling what he's feeling and getting the sense of mood. At the moment it's just a list of events told to the reader in snippets. If I was to write this one scene, it would be many many pages long.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

I thought I might as well post this here because it's currently my main focus and I'm sure it will help others. I see too many pieces that have a single pace throughout, be it description or action:

My advise would be to absorb what is said but don't take it as gospel.


----------



## alpacinoutd

Does this work?

John stopped in front of the moonlit Pacific, gazing at the ocean in awe. A mist hovered over the water. In the murmur of the waves, her laughter came to him, haunting. He could almost see the mischievous glint in her eyes as if she was in front of him. Had she been alive, she would be making fun of his goofy passion for the ocean right now.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> Does this work?
> 
> *1/* John stopped in front of the moonlit Pacific, gazing at the ocean in awe. *2/ *A mist hovered over the water. In the murmur of the waves, her laughter came to him, haunting. *3/* He could almost see the mischievous glint in her eyes as if she was in front of him. *4/* Had she been alive, she would be making fun of his goofy passion for the ocean right now.



I'm going to focus in on other aspects because you're writing is getting much tighter.

*1/ *Consider 'stopped in front of'. Is that exciting? Does it tell us anything about the character? Does it add mood? Does it move the story forward? Of course someone would have to stop if faced with an ocean, unless they have a boat. It's unnecessary and ordinary detail:* 'John gazed over the moonlit Pacific in awe'*. We know Pacific is an ocean. *2/* A similar thing to the first sentence. What you're doing is simply describing as best you can but mood and movement would bring the scene to life: *'A mist crept over the choppy water.'* Try not the think of what you're describing as a painting, think of it as a character with actions, movement, attitude, and even personality. This isn't quite the same as personification. It just offers far more flavour for you to play with.* 3/ *There's that need to fully explain again. 'as if she was in front of him'. He's seeing the mischievous glint in her eyes so it goes without question she would be in front of him: *'He could almost see the mischievous glint in her eyes.'* You've set this scene up in the previous sentence with her laughter, hence 'almost see', a word I would recommend avoiding as much as possible but here fits because of context. *4/* Tonally, 'goofy' doesn't quite fit there. If she's making fun of his passion for the ocean, you don't have to somehow indicate why by adding in a word like 'goofy'. That she does is enough. If you want to add why, add another sentence rather than a defining word like 'goofy'. In this paragraph, I don't think it's needed:* 'Had she been alive, she would have been making fun of his love for the ocean.' *You don't need 'right now' because we are, as we read, in that 'right now'.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

I urge all aspiring writers to watch this. It's an incredibly helpful and inciteful interview with Joe Abercrombie about prose:


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Would this grab you and make you want to read on? I have adjusted it in line with a few suggestions but a few more thoughts couldn't hurt:

An August night slipped in and heaved aside the day, full moon fat over The Shoulders of The World. Miners shuffled from their catacombs—blisters in the dark—black faced one and all, tools hoisted over weary shoulders, homeward bound, where hot baths waited. Some dozed away the evening, bellies filled, and others, not keen on wasted hours, made for the many taverns that peppered Charnwick.

In one such tavern, a stranger sat; nothing more than a scratch in a shadow by the window. He watched patrons amble into The Yellow Bird and drew lightly on a straw-thin cigarette, smoke gathering beneath the brim of his hat.​


----------



## Taylor

I like it!  It has a vintage feeling to it. 

The "hot tubs" jumps out.    In Canada, hot tubs are outdoor electrical spa-type fixtures that don't seem to fit into your setting.    Do you mean hot baths?


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## Kent_Jacobs

Taylor said:


> I like it!  It has a vintage feeling to it.
> 
> The "hot tubs" jumps out.    In Canada, hot tubs are outdoor electrical spa-type fixtures that don't seem to fit into your setting.    Do you mean hot baths?


Yeah, Vranger pointed that out too in PMs. I was going to change it to 'baths' but wanted to trial it a little longer. I see them as wooden, the type of thing you'd see in a typical Western but clearly the definition has changed over the years. I'll change it to baths.


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## Deleted member 66681

Hello! This is the start of a short story I'm writing and I want to start going paragraph by paragraph (or section by section in the more dialogue-heavy areas) and rewriting/improving on each one. Can I get some feedback on the ones below? They are the first two in the story. Is this a good start? I sincerely apologize if this is utter garbage (it probably is). 

-------------------------

Raindrops dripped from the dark, water-soaked curls that covered Charli’s forehead onto his flushed red cheeks, mixing with the tears that raced from his chocolate eyes to his pointed chin. He stood, anxiously, before his apartment door, fumbling with his keys in his trembling, wet hands, ignoring the disappointed, pity-filled stares of his neighbors that came in and out of their apartments.

When he finally opened the door, he was immediately greeted by the cold, empty darkness that was his apartment. As he stumbled inside, slowly closing the door behind him, a deep sense of foreboding flooded his body – but this was nothing new. Not an ounce of warmth, joy, or peace found itself within the confines of this apartment. Melancholy hung over the air, invading his senses and suffocating him upon every entrance like smoke in a never-ending fire.


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## Taylor

Wow...that's powerful!  Great imagery.  I can relate to that feeling...fortunately I haven't had to experience that kind of dread for many years now.

One thing I wondered about is the use of the word "disappointed."   "Pity-filled" makes sense...but what are they disappointed about?    Or is this foreshadowing?

Also wondering about the time frame.  He's fumbling with is keys, but how many neighbours would be coming in and out in that time frame?  Perhaps you only need one?

I might consider leaving out the "immediately."  When you open the door, anything you experience with respect to atmosphere would be immediate.  But I get what you are going for here.  It's a stark contrast to being outside of the apartment.

Consider breaking up one of the longer sentences, to get a short punchy one.  It would suit your style to mix up the sentence structure.

Really like the use of the word "melancholy".  It's a great word because it suggest that there is no reason for the feeling.  I take it he/she is in some state of depression.

It's a small snippit, but you got my attention.  Good work!


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## VRanger

Savannah Sapphire said:


> Hello! This is the start of a short story I'm writing and I want to start going paragraph by paragraph (or section by section in the more dialogue-heavy areas) and rewriting/improving on each one. Can I get some feedback on the ones below? They are the first two in the story. Is this a good start? I sincerely apologize if this is utter garbage (it probably is).
> 
> -------------------------
> 
> Raindrops dripped from the dark, water-soaked curls that covered Charli’s forehead onto his flushed red cheeks, mixing with the tears that raced from his chocolate eyes to his pointed chin. He stood, anxiously, before his apartment door, fumbling with his keys in his trembling, wet hands, ignoring the disappointed, pity-filled stares of his neighbors that came in and out of their apartments.
> 
> When he finally opened the door, he was immediately greeted by the cold, empty darkness that was his apartment. As he stumbled inside, slowly closing the door behind him, a deep sense of foreboding flooded his body – but this was nothing new. Not an ounce of warmth, joy, or peace found itself within the confines of this apartment. Melancholy hung over the air, invading his senses and suffocating him upon every entrance like smoke in a never-ending fire.


Nothing wrong with that writing. It needs a bit of the same kind of editing we all do, and that's normal. For example, IMO your second sentence is too complex, and should be split into two. The more commas you notice in a sentence, the better candidate it is to peg as complex, and therefore break it up. You could probably drop a modifier here or there, but that's just food for thought, not essential critique.

My suggestion on the second sentence? If I were to edit it, I'd put a period after 'wet hands", and start the next sentence with 'He ignored'.


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## Deleted member 66681

Taylor said:


> Wow...that's powerful!  Great imagery.  I can relate to that feeling...fortunately I haven't had to experience that kind of dread for many years now.
> 
> One thing I wondered about is the use of the word "disappointed."   "Pity-filled" makes sense...but what are they disappointed about?    Or is this foreshadowing?
> 
> Also wondering about the time frame.  He's fumbling with is keys, but how many neighbours would be coming in and out in that time frame?  Perhaps you only need one?
> 
> I might consider leaving out the "immediately."  When you open the door, anything you experience with respect to atmosphere would be immediate.  But I get what you are going for here.  It's a stark contrast to being outside of the apartment.
> 
> Consider breaking up one of the longer sentences, to get a short punchy one.  It would suit your style to mix up the sentence structure.
> 
> Really like the use of the word "melancholy".  It's a great word because it suggest that there is no reason for the feeling.  I take it he/she is in some state of depression.
> 
> It's a small snippit, but you got my attention.  Good work!


When I used the words "disappointed" and "pity-filled", I was trying to imply that this is something his neighbors have witnessed before (him coming home a drunken, crying, mess). That's what they're disappointed about. I guess I didn't convey that very well, or maybe "disappointed" isn't the word I'm looking for...


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## Taylor

Savannah Sapphire said:


> When I used the words "disappointed" and "pity-filled", I was trying to imply that this is something his neighbors have witnessed before (him coming home a drunken, crying, mess). That's what they're disappointed about. I guess I didn't convey that very well, or maybe "disappointed" isn't the word I'm looking for.


The "disappointed" ties well into him being "drunken again."  It's not obvious, but now that I read it over, I see the "flushed red cheeks" and "stumbling."   But I have to renege on relating to it...lol!  THAT, I have never experienced.  I thought he was just depressed and lonely.

Perhaps make it a bit more evident:

_Raindrops dripped from the dark, water-soaked curls that covered Charli’s forehead, onto his flushed red cheeks, mixing with the tears that raced from his chocolate eyes to his pointed chin. He felt regret in the pit of his stomach for having stayed so long at the bar...yet again. When would he learn? Standing anxiously, before his apartment door, fumbling with his keys in his trembling, wet hands, he ignored the disappointed, pity-filled stare of his neighbor standing nearby.  _


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## VRanger

Savannah Sapphire said:


> When I used the words "disappointed" and "pity-filled", I was trying to imply that this is something his neighbors have witnessed before (him coming home a drunken, crying, mess). That's what they're disappointed about. I guess I didn't convey that very well, or maybe "disappointed" isn't the word I'm looking for...


I don't think there is any issue in what you conveyed. You're allowed to leave the reader in mystery for a time. It's always a good opening. We only have two paragraphs, so we lack the context which will come as the story unfolds. You're doing fine.


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## PrairieHostage

I have these saved in my Chromebook and refer to them constantly while writing. 






						Reverse Dictionary
					







					reversedictionary.org
				









						OneLook Thesaurus and Reverse Dictionary
					


A powerful English thesaurus and brainstorming tool that lets you describe what you're looking for in plain terms.  It gives you hundreds of related words to choose from and lets you narrow down the list with several advanced features.





					onelook.com


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## Taylor

VRanger said:


> I don't think there is any issue in what you conveyed. You're allowed to leave the reader in mystery for a time. It's always a good opening. We only have two paragraphs, so we lack the context which will come as the story unfolds. You're doing fine.


Yes, another good opinion...there's no right or wrong.  As I mentioned earlier, "disappointed" could also be foreshadowing as @VRanger suggests.


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## VRanger

PrairieHostage said:


> I have these saved in my Chromebook and refer to them constantly while writing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reverse Dictionary
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reversedictionary.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OneLook Thesaurus and Reverse Dictionary
> 
> 
> 
> A powerful English thesaurus and brainstorming tool that lets you describe what you're looking for in plain terms.  It gives you hundreds of related words to choose from and lets you narrow down the list with several advanced features.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> onelook.com


I use a thesaurus often, and I should remember reverse dictionaries for those odd moments when that word I want is on the tip of my tongue (fingers) but sticking there instead of getting typed. However, the thesaurus often gets me there, too.


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## bdcharles

Savannah Sapphire said:


> Hello! This is the start of a short story I'm writing and I want to start going paragraph by paragraph (or section by section in the more dialogue-heavy areas) and rewriting/improving on each one. Can I get some feedback on the ones below? They are the first two in the story. Is this a good start? I sincerely apologize if this is utter garbage (it probably is).
> 
> -------------------------
> 
> Raindrops dripped from the dark, water-soaked curls that covered Charli’s forehead onto his flushed red cheeks, mixing with the tears that raced from his chocolate eyes to his pointed chin. He stood, anxiously, before his apartment door, fumbling with his keys in his trembling, wet hands, ignoring the disappointed, pity-filled stares of his neighbors that came in and out of their apartments.
> 
> When he finally opened the door, he was immediately greeted by the cold, empty darkness that was his apartment. As he stumbled inside, slowly closing the door behind him, a deep sense of foreboding flooded his body – but this was nothing new. Not an ounce of warmth, joy, or peace found itself within the confines of this apartment. Melancholy hung over the air, invading his senses and suffocating him upon every entrance like smoke in a never-ending fire.


It's not at all bad. All in all a perfectly decent opener. Got no real issue with it.

The only things I wanted to see done differently, to help it pop a smidge more, were:

- varying sentence structure: "X happened, while Y also transpired." See if you can change a couple of these; eg: maybe "As he stumbled inside, slowly closing the door behind him, a deep sense of foreboding flooded his body." It's okay but it reads like a lot of the other sentences, and it veers a little toward the generic. Think about this moment from the POV character's perspective. Jazz up the language so it comes out in his voice, with his personality. Maybe, I dunno, "Only by closing the door could he cut off the sense of foreboding, and even that didn't last more than a few blaring cycles of the alarm." Or something. It doesn't have to be that. That probably wouldn't work, but it should hopefully give you a little of an idea of what else you can do to express the exact same data but with a different vibe.

- overadjectiving: Most of your nouns seem to have an adjective attached to them. Sometimes two. Maybe try cutting some. "Cold, empty darkness" could be just "empty darkness" or even just "darkness", or if that threatens to become too anemic, "the depthless husk that was his apartment". Just crank up the gain on the language a little, if you don't want to sacrifice sacrifice intensity. Or consider synecdoche and metonymy if wordcount is an issue - instead of calling it "the cold empty darkness that was his apartment" call it "the cold empty darkness that was his life". It should give you some more voice options.

- clichés; as I say, your writing is decent, but there are a few instances of what I call second-order clichés. These are phrases and expressions written when people are busy avoiding clichés. Things like "a deep sense of foreboding flooded his body" and "melancholy hung over the air". These are not that glaring of shopworn sentences, but they're getting there; they "sound like writing". You don't want it to sound like writing. You want it to sound like a deep sense of foreboding and melancholy but without it coming right out and saying so. Try and manufacture that sense of foreboding without telling us that's what you're doing. How? Use props. Use atmosphere. Where are we? Paint a picture - a literal scene of where we are. What is there? We want an environment that oozes menace or what have you, whatever you want to create, whatever placeholder word is already there. You mentioned metaphors and imagery before. Sharpen those chops and bang some in here. To use the earlier example: "Only by closing the door could he cut off the malevolent presence that had set up nest in the complex, and even that didn't last more than a few blaring cycles of the alarm." Again, doesn't have to be that but I just want to use some simple lines to illustrate what's possible.


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## Deleted member 66681

bdcharles said:


> It's not at all bad. All in all a perfectly decent opener. Got no real issue with it.
> 
> The only things I wanted to see done differently, to help it pop a smidge more, were:
> 
> - varying sentence structure: "X happened, while Y also transpired." See if you can change a couple of these; eg: maybe "As he stumbled inside, slowly closing the door behind him, a deep sense of foreboding flooded his body." It's okay but it reads like a lot of the other sentences, and it veers a little toward the generic. Think about this moment from the POV character's perspective. Jazz up the language so it comes out in his voice, with his personality. Maybe, I dunno, "Only by closing the door could he cut off the sense of foreboding, and even that didn't last more than a few blaring cycles of the alarm." Or something. It doesn't have to be that. That probably wouldn't work, but it should hopefully give you a little of an idea of what else you can do to express the exact same data but with a different vibe.
> 
> - overadjectiving: Most of your nouns seem to have an adjective attached to them. Sometimes two. Maybe try cutting some. "Cold, empty darkness" could be just "empty darkness" or even just "darkness", or if that threatens to become too anemic, "the depthless husk that was his apartment". Just crank up the gain on the language a little, if you don't want to sacrifice sacrifice intensity. Or consider synecdoche and metonymy if wordcount is an issue - instead of calling it "the cold empty darkness that was his apartment" call it "the cold empty darkness that was his life". It should give you some more voice options.
> 
> - clichés; as I say, your writing is decent, but there are a few instances of what I call second-order clichés. These are phrases and expressions written when people are busy avoiding clichés. Things like "a deep sense of foreboding flooded his body" and "melancholy hung over the air". These are not that glaring of shopworn sentences, but they're getting there; they "sound like writing". You don't want it to sound like writing. You want it to sound like a deep sense of foreboding and melancholy but without it coming right out and saying so. Try and manufacture that sense of foreboding without telling us that's what you're doing. How? Use props. Use atmosphere. Where are we? Paint a picture - a literal scene of where we are. What is there? We want an environment that oozes menace or what have you, whatever you want to create, whatever placeholder word is already there. You mentioned metaphors and imagery before. Sharpen those chops and bang some in here. To use the earlier example: "Only by closing the door could he cut off the malevolent presence that had set up nest in the complex, and even that didn't last more than a few blaring cycles of the alarm." Again, doesn't have to be that but I just want to use some simple lines to illustrate what's possible.



How do I come up with those metaphors though? I'd throw some more in if I knew how, but I don't know how to come up with them in the first place. I wish I could come up with fancy words and phrases like "depthless husk", but stuff like that never comes to my mind. I don't know why. How do I add that stuff when I can't even think them up?


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## VRanger

Savannah Sapphire said:


> How do I come up with those metaphors though? I'd throw some more in if I knew how, but I don't know how to come up with them in the first place. I wish I could come up with fancy words and phrases like "depthless husk", but stuff like that never comes to my mind. I don't know why. How do I add that stuff when I can't even think them up?


It's really just a matter of experience.

But first, you don't need metaphors all that frequently. You want them to occasionally drive home a point or introduce humor. If it's not coming to you, don't force it. If you force it, it will probably look forced to the reader. Better to not have one than write one which looks awkward. 

Now, having said that, you had one metaphor above, ending the second paragraph. It was well considered and effective. I liked it. So what we may have here is you worrying about something you don't have to. And again ... that's not uncommon for a writer. LOL

I think you've passed the post threshold for starting threads in the Fiction Workshop, so drop an entire story in there. It's hard to give you much of a critique for a couple of paragraphs (even though that's the specific aim of this thread). I can do a much better job for you with more content to work from.


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## Deleted member 66681

VRanger said:


> It's really just a matter of experience.
> 
> But first, you don't need metaphors all that frequently. You want them to occasionally drive home a point or introduce humor. If it's not coming to you, don't force it. If you force it, it will probably look forced to the reader. Better to not have one than write one which looks awkward.
> 
> Now, having said that, you had one metaphor above, ending the second paragraph. It was well considered and effective. I liked it. So what we may have here is you worrying about something you don't have to. And again ... that's not uncommon for a writer. LOL
> 
> I think you've passed the post threshold for starting threads in the Fiction Workshop, so drop an entire story in there. It's hard to give you much of a critique for a couple of paragraphs (even though that's the specific aim of this thread). I can do a much better job for you with more content to work from.


I actually posted something there a few minutes ago if you would like to look at it. It's not great (and it's old) but it's one of my better pieces (although I hate it because I've continuously failed at writing anything nearly as good...).


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## bdcharles

Savannah Sapphire said:


> How do I come up with those metaphors though? I'd throw some more in if I knew how, but I don't know how to come up with them in the first place. I wish I could come up with fancy words and phrases like "depthless husk", but stuff like that never comes to my mind. I don't know why. How do I add that stuff when I can't even think them up?


A trick I use is to get myself in the mood the character is in. Inhabit them. Be them. Feel what they’re feeling, and be in their environment. If the character is pissed off, or tired, then be in that mindset. Then write or think up the basic bits of the sentence that don’t need the extra oomph, and when you get to the bit that needs work, stop dead - and see what the mood supplies. I dunno if it works for others but it seems to work for me.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Savannah Sapphire said:


> *1/ *Raindrops dripped from the dark, water-soaked curls that covered Charli’s forehead onto his flushed red cheeks, mixing with the tears that raced from his chocolate eyes to his pointed chin. *2/* He stood, anxiously, before his apartment door, fumbling with his keys in his trembling, wet hands, ignoring the disappointed, pity-filled stares of his neighbors that came in and out of their apartments.


First of all, it's not garbage. You want to see some of my stuff before I slap myself about the head! And some would say even after I've slapped myself about the head, it's still garbage. *1/* This sentence is just a little too much, brought about because of the modifiers and some unnecessary detail. It might also be trying to explain too much all at once, so perhaps it needs to be two or three sentences. What you've tried to do is add in a description of Charli and this isn't the right place for it. Just add in little bits as you go. We know raindrops are dripping so there's no need for 'water-soaked'. The image isn't changed by removing that. Curls are likely to cover a forehead ... in fact most hairstyles cover the forehead to some extent, so that can also be removed. Because you haven't used 'hair' it's forced you into a little overwriting with 'that covered Charki's forehead'. Just use hair there to simplify. 'flushed-red'. If cheeks are flushed we know they're red, so 'red' can go too. Would tears 'race'? Think of the speed and the intention behind a word like that. *'Raindrops dripped from Charli's curly hair and mixed with tears running down his flushed cheeks to his chin.' *I'd also consider losing 'chin' because you've used it to add another description 'sharp chin'.* 'Raindrops dripped from Charli's curly hair and mixed with tears running down his flushed cheeks.' *To be honest, I still wouldn't be happy with that. I've adjusted in line with one sentence, but as I said, I think it should be more. That would give you more room for expansion and allow you to spread your descriptions without them cluttering the sentences. Sometimes you don't need less, you need more. *2/* 'trembling, wet hands' and 'disappointed, pity-filled stares' are another example of too many modifiers. In the first, we know it's raining and so we know his hands are 'wet' and so that's redundant and can be removed. Sorting that out may alleviate some of the pressure on 'disappointed, pity-filled' but I'd only pick one thing there. It this case 'disappointed', which feels slightly at odds with 'pity-filled'. Try to show as much as possible. You've used 'anxiously' but the actions 'fumbling' and 'trembling' show anxiously: *'He stood before his apartment door and fumbled with keys in trembling hands, ignoring the pity-filled stares of neighbours that came in and out of their apartments.'*


Savannah Sapphire said:


> *1/* When he finally opened the door, he was immediately greeted by the cold, empty darkness that was his apartment. *2/* As he stumbled inside, slowly closing the door behind him, a deep sense of foreboding flooded his body – but this was nothing new. *3/* Not an ounce of warmth, joy, or peace found itself within the confines of this apartment. *4/* Melancholy hung over the air, invading his senses and suffocating him upon every entrance like smoke in a never-ending fire.


*1/ *I'd lose 'immediately' and simplify the 'that was', which sounds slightly awkward.* 'When he finally opened the door, he was greeted by the cold, empty darkness of his apartment.' 2/ *'a deep sense'. this is slightly leaning towards filter in that you're placing the feeling into the protag and removing it from the reader. The same with things like 'she felt', 'she smelt' etc. I'd also want to lose that gerund with 'closing' too. Just to smooth it a bit. This is more a stylistic choice really and isn't necessary: 'Foreboding' is a deep feeling anyway, making 'deep sense' redundant. *'As he stumbled inside, and slowly closed the door behind him, foreboding flooded his body--but this was nothing new.' 3/ *You've mentioned it's cold and I took it, as most readers would, you meant that literally as well as figuratively so you can lose 'warmth'. Another stylistic choice for me would be to try and avoid using 'apartment' again. *'Not an ounce of joy or peace found itself within'.* I'd not only do that to remove another use of 'apartment' but to add ambiguity. It could then also mean within himself as well as within the apartment. *4/* Think about the physical placement of that 'melancholy'. You've said 'hung over' but this is 'air', which is everywhere. If you'd have used 'weight' then perhaps the logistics and physical aspects would at least ring true, but melancholy is an emotion and as such, in the context of this scene, would be all encompassing. There's that slight filter again with 'invaded his senses'. I'm not saying never use it, just cut it out when possible. Here it's easily removed because 'suffocating' is the operative word there. 'upon every entrance' is awkward. Does the smoke need to come from a 'never-ending' fire? If you have smoke, then you have fire, making 'fire' redundant. It's the smoke that's the most important element and the thing that would 'suffocate'.  Here I'd actually add in a modifier. : *'Melancholy filled the air, suffocating him like thick smoke.' *


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## Riptide

Here's a little something something of my newest work. It's supposed to be rambling, but maybe it doesn't go too well. The character just turned her back on the light of heaven for earth again, and is waking up.

---

The light of the portal and the room snubbed out, and I fell from the bottom into whatever lay before the great beyond.

…

…

Which happened to be just darkness. I swooped into something mushy and dark and wanted to scream but my lungs, now that my body was back to feeling like a proper body and not a listless entity, were not up to the task, so I mewed. Without critically thinking about the moment, because I was thinking, just not critically--I was thinking about how great it would be to find light again--I punched upward right through wood, and a load of dirt streamed into my mouth, still opened to scream. When faced with dirt or thinking, I took more dirt, and continuously punched up. It wasn’t until I had wiggled myself almost out of the hole I’d carved that I realized I had yet to breathe. Still, I did not think about it too hard as I worked my way into the rich clutches of a cool night.

I rolled out and onto a chilled stone, finally taking a huge breath and choking on it. At least I wasn’t a ghost, I mused, while staring at the twinkling stars that broke the light pollution of the sky. I was most certainly dead, but I could breathe again, though it didn’t do much for me, and the stream of air tickled my throat. I relished in that, filled my lungs, and sputtered out, “Hello,” to no one in particular. I was flat on my back in a graveyard… or was it a cemetery? What decided which one was which? If I had a phone I would search it. Sadly, no one thought to pocket mine with me when burying me.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Riptide said:


> The light of the portal and the room snubbed out, and I fell from the bottom into whatever lay before the great beyond.


'snubbed' isn't the right word there. It means to ignore or spurn. I think perhaps you were thinking about 'snuffed' but you're talking electric here and that would relate more to something like a flame (candle). Maybe 'flickered out'. I'm always going on about the logistics of sentences and words. Words have a physical presence and therefore other words and imagery need to mirror those same physical attributes, otherwise the flow and movement feel at odds. Here you have 'fell from', an image of elevation, but you've attributed it to 'bottom' the place one would normally associate with the place you'd 'fall to'. Then you have 'into' suggesting a hole coupled with 'beyond' which is normally associated with something moving more laterally. But you haven't reached the 'great beyond' but rather some undesignated location 'before it'. You have clarified in the following sentence with 'darkness' but the flow feels broken and I'm not entirely sure where I am in space or time regardless of that clarification of the place between falling and 'beyond'. I wouldn't split those two up and keep the clarification closer to the actual image by including it in the same sentence or paragraph. *'The light of the portal and the room flickered out, and I slipped into darkness, somewhere between here and the great beyond.' *I know you said it was supposed to be rambly but without a notable character trait, it comes across as overwriting. You're leaning into more literary territory with this and I think you could only get away with 'rambling' if it was more informal and chatty. 


Riptide said:


> …
> 
> …
> 
> Which happened to be just darkness. *1/* I swooped into something mushy and dark and wanted to scream but my lungs, now that my body was back to feeling like a proper body and not a listless entity, were not up to the task, so I mewed. *2/* Without critically thinking about the moment, because I was thinking, just not critically--I was thinking about how great it would be to find light again--I punched upward right through wood, and a load of dirt streamed into my mouth, still opened to scream.  When faced with dirt or thinking, I took more dirt, and continuously punched up. *3/* It wasn’t until I had wiggled myself almost out of the hole I’d carved that I realized I had yet to breathe. *4/* Still, I did not think about it too hard as I worked my way into the rich clutches of a cool night.


*1/ *This is someone who's been buried. 'swooped' suggests bird or a person that can fly. From where are they swooping though? You've 'swooped' into something 'mushy' and 'dark' but you're in a coffin where you would be static and a coffin is made of wood, not something that would be mushy. You need to square this image physically and ease the reader into a more grounded image. Yeah, that rambling is causing all sorts of problems. I have to be honest, it's not working. 'mewed' is associated with cats or some kinds of birds. 'Mewled' would be closer to your needs. *'I found myself somewhere hard and dark and wanted to scream but my body, no longer a listless entity, was not up to the task, so I could only manage a faint mewl'. 2/ *This is one hell of a complicated sentence and you've given yourself an impossible task to accomplish. You're in a coffin with a wooden lid. Not only that but there's six foot of soil above you pressing down on that lid. Have you tried punching through wood, let alone punching through wood with six foot of soil above it? And it only appears to have taken ONE punch ... . I'd say that was impossible, unless the protag possesses otherworldly strength. I know they're dead so likely a zombie but physics still apply. This needs rethinking but for the sake of critiquing the sentence, I'll ignore the impossibility and go with the idea of a superhuman. 'Streamed' doesn't quite feel right. You'd normally associate that with liquid. Perhaps 'trickled' would be better. You don't need 'load of dirt' there. Just 'dirt' would do. I'm also just going to point out that the protag is in a coffin and therefore has no idea what time of day it is, making the mention of 'light' redundant:* 'I thought about the world above and punched the coffin lid over and over until a crack appeared and dirt trickled into my mouth, still open ready to scream.' 3/ *'wiggled' is quite a cute word when considering the situation. 'wriggled' would be better. although that might not be necessary. This sentence needs a lot of finessing. 'almost out of the hole I'd carved' feels like a description too far when breaking through to the surface of the earth would suffice. *'It wasn't until I'd wriggled through the soft earth and I felt a cool breeze on my face, that I realised I had yet to breath.' 4/ *'clutches of the night' could come across as the right choice given more context and more information. The protag is a zombie and so therefore could feel as if he's owned by the night. However, it's sitting there all by itself at the end of the sentence and only appears to be a badly chosen word. I'd change it to 'embrace'. 


Riptide said:


> *1/* I rolled out and onto a chilled stone, finally taking a huge breath and choking on it. *2/* At least I wasn’t a ghost, I mused, while staring at the twinkling stars that broke the light pollution of the sky. *3/* I was most certainly dead, but I could breathe again, though it didn’t do much for me, and the stream of air tickled my throat. I relished in that, filled my lungs, and sputtered out, “Hello,” to no one in particular. I was flat on my back in a graveyard… or was it a cemetery? What decided which one was which? If I had a phone I would search it. Sadly, no one thought to pocket mine with me when burying me.


*1/* What is this chilled stone? It can't be the headstone because he's rolled 'onto' it and headstones are erect. It can't be stones placed around the coffin because it's only one stone. I'll turn it into a headstone: *'I rolled out and leant against the chilled headstone, finally taking a huge breath and choking on it.' 2/ *If you can see stars then light pollution isn't stopping you seeing them, making the mention of light pollution redundant. Stars are in the sky so mentioning sky is also redundant: *'At least I wasn't a ghost, I mused, while staring at the twinkling stars above.' *The reason I've added 'above' there is to make sure the reader knows he's craned his neck to look up and isn't just looking outwards and seeing them. Looking up fits with 'mused' in terms of body language.* 3/* I'd rejig this a bit. That 'but I could breathe again' feels disjointed somehow, as if injected into the sentence rather than a natural part of it:* 'I could breath again, even though I was most certainly dead, and It didn't do much for me, the trickle of air only tickling my throat.'*


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## bdcharles

Hi I like it. It seems like a pretty cool premise and stylishly written. Just in terms of tidying up a little, I've put a few thoughts inside the text.



Riptide said:


> ---
> 
> The light of the portal and the room snubbed out, and I fell from the bottom into whatever lay before the great beyond.
> 
> …
> 
> …
> 
> Which happened to be just darkness. I swooped into something mushy and dark and wanted to scream but my lungs, now that my body was back to feeling like a proper body and not a listless entity, were not up to the task, so I mewed. Without critically thinking about the moment, because I was thinking, just not critically--I was thinking_[<- "critically" and "thinking" get repeated a fair bit here - maybe try expressing the idea or action another way, or the sentence could get a bit messy]_ about how great it would be to find light again--I punched upward right through wood, and a load of dirt streamed into my mouth, still opened to scream. When faced with dirt or thinking, I took more dirt, and continuously punched up. It _[<- this sentence can probably go]_wasn’t until I had _*almost *_wiggled myself almost out of the hole I’d carved that I realized I had yet to breathe. Still, I did not think about it too hard as I worked my way into the rich clutches of a cool night.
> 
> I rolled out and onto a chilled stone, finally taking a huge breath and choking on it. At least I wasn’t a ghost, I mused, while staring at the twinkling stars that broke the light pollution of the sky_[<- see if you can do away without filtering on here. You've established POV well, so rather than say "I saw", "I thought" etc, understand that reader already "is" the character so you can write some stuff as is: "At least XYZ was the case. The stars twinkled" rather than "I thought about XYZ being the case, while looking at the twinkling stars"]_ . I was most certainly dead, but I could breathe again, though it didn’t do much for me, and the stream of air tickled my throat. I relished in that, filled my lungs, and sputtered out, “Hello,” to no one in particular. I was flat on my back in a graveyard… or was it a cemetery? What decided which one was which? If I had a phone I would search it. Sadly, no one thought to pocket mine with me when burying me.


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## Riptide

TheMightyAz said:


> 'snubbed' isn't the right word there. It means to ignore or spurn. I think perhaps you were thinking about 'snuffed' but you're talking electric here and that would relate more to something like a flame (candle). Maybe 'flickered out'. I'm always going on about the logistics of sentences and words. Words have a physical presence and therefore other words and imagery need to mirror those same physical attributes, otherwise the flow and movement feel at odds. Here you have 'fell from', an image of elevation, but you've attributed it to 'bottom' the place one would normally associate with the place you'd 'fall to'. Then you have 'into' suggesting a hole coupled with 'beyond' which is normally associated with something moving more laterally. But you haven't reached the 'great beyond' but rather some undesignated location 'before it'. You have clarified in the following sentence with 'darkness' but the flow feels broken and I'm not entirely sure where I am in space or time regardless of that clarification of the place between falling and 'beyond'. I wouldn't split those two up and keep the clarification closer to the actual image by including it in the same sentence or paragraph. *'The light of the portal and the room flickered out, and I slipped into darkness, somewhere between here and the great beyond.' *I know you said it was supposed to be rambly but without a notable character trait, it comes across as overwriting. You're leaning into more literary territory with this and I think you could only get away with 'rambling' if it was more informal and chatty.
> 
> *1/ *This is someone who's been buried. 'swooped' suggests bird or a person that can fly. From where are they swooping though? You've 'swooped' into something 'mushy' and 'dark' but you're in a coffin where you would be static and a coffin is made of wood, not something that would be mushy. You need to square this image physically and ease the reader into a more grounded image. Yeah, that rambling is causing all sorts of problems. I have to be honest, it's not working. 'mewed' is associated with cats or some kinds of birds. 'Mewled' would be closer to your needs. *'I found myself somewhere hard and dark and wanted to scream but my body, no longer a listless entity, was not up to the task, so I could only manage a faint mewl'. 2/ *This is one hell of a complicated sentence and you've given yourself an impossible task to accomplish. You're in a coffin with a wooden lid. Not only that but there's six foot of soil above you pressing down on that lid. Have you tried punching through wood, let alone punching through wood with six foot of soil above it? And it only appears to have taken ONE punch ... . I'd say that was impossible, unless the protag possesses otherworldly strength. I know they're dead so likely a zombie but physics still apply. This needs rethinking but for the sake of critiquing the sentence, I'll ignore the impossibility and go with the idea of a superhuman. 'Streamed' doesn't quite feel right. You'd normally associate that with liquid. Perhaps 'trickled' would be better. You don't need 'load of dirt' there. Just 'dirt' would do. I'm also just going to point out that the protag is in a coffin and therefore has no idea what time of day it is, making the mention of 'light' redundant:* 'I thought about the world above and punched the coffin lid over and over until a crack appeared and dirt trickled into my mouth, still open ready to scream.' 3/ *'wiggled' is quite a cute word when considering the situation. 'wriggled' would be better. although that might not be necessary. This sentence needs a lot of finessing. 'almost out of the hole I'd carved' feels like a description too far when breaking through to the surface of the earth would suffice. *'It wasn't until I'd wriggled through the soft earth and I felt a cool breeze on my face, that I realised I had yet to breath.' 4/ *'clutches of the night' could come across as the right choice given more context and more information. The protag is a zombie and so therefore could feel as if he's owned by the night. However, it's sitting there all by itself at the end of the sentence and only appears to be a badly chosen word. I'd change it to 'embrace'.
> 
> *1/* What is this chilled stone? It can't be the headstone because he's rolled 'onto' it and headstones are erect. It can't be stones placed around the coffin because it's only one stone. I'll turn it into a headstone: *'I rolled out and leant against the chilled headstone, finally taking a huge breath and choking on it.' 2/ *If you can see stars then light pollution isn't stopping you seeing them, making the mention of light pollution redundant. Stars are in the sky so mentioning sky is also redundant: *'At least I wasn't a ghost, I mused, while staring at the twinkling stars above.' *The reason I've added 'above' there is to make sure the reader knows he's craned his neck to look up and isn't just looking outwards and seeing them. Looking up fits with 'mused' in terms of body language.* 3/* I'd rejig this a bit. That 'but I could breathe again' feels disjointed somehow, as if injected into the sentence rather than a natural part of it:* 'I could breath again, even though I was most certainly dead, and It didn't do much for me, the trickle of air only tickling my throat.'*


Snuffed is for sure the word! Yes! And it's not electric light. I would hope heavens light would be innate and not Man made... so snuffed works for me, personally. I used " great beyond" to reference heaven and she had fallen into limbo or something similar. Swooping bc she was a metaphysical thing in the air who was pulled back into her body. Do agree that great beyond line might need some reworking. When I wrote it, I don't see the room darkening slowly or flickering, but the light literally snuffing out and she falls from the bottom. Or at least thats how it feels, that the floor ceased to hold her up. I'll have to trim the sentence I have up there to clarify that.

Mushy referenced her physical body being decayed as she falls back into. And gravestones are usually flat in modern day, and she died pretty modern. I do think I need to change some of the wording round, and I hate some of the confusion. Never want that for reader. I can make it more clear, for sure. Editing sentence structure and cleaning it out 

Thanks for your rearranging! They give me a different perspective of how I can write the lines. Though I do prefer some of my word choice better, when I don't use the wrong one


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## Riptide

bdcharles said:


> Hi I like it. It seems like a pretty cool premise and stylishly written. Just in terms of tidying up a little, I've put a few thoughts inside the text.


I have been filtering a lot more than usual with this character... thank you! I'll need to tidy up this scene a bit


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## Kent_Jacobs

Riptide said:


> Snuffed is for sure the word! Yes! And it's not electric light. I would hope heavens light would be innate and not Man made... so snuffed works for me, personally. I used " great beyond" to reference heaven and she had fallen into limbo or something similar. Swooping bc she was a metaphysical thing in the air who was pulled back into her body. Do agree that great beyond line might need some reworking. When I wrote it, I don't see the room darkening slowly or flickering, but the light literally snuffing out and she falls from the bottom. Or at least thats how it feels, that the floor ceased to hold her up. I'll have to trim the sentence I have up there to clarify that.
> 
> Mushy referenced her physical body being decayed as she falls back into. And gravestones are usually flat in modern day, and she died pretty modern. I do think I need to change some of the wording round, and I hate some of the confusion. Never want that for reader. I can make it more clear, for sure. Editing sentence structure and cleaning it out
> 
> Thanks for your rearranging! They give me a different perspective of how I can write the lines. Though I do prefer some of my word choice better, when I don't use the wrong one


My pleasure! I don't offer an alternative line in order for people to cut and paste. I just do that to bring together everything I've said so you get an idea of what it would 'look like' with everything taken into consideration.  I'm just going to push back a little on that 'snuffed' line though just so you're clear on what I meant. I worked with the structure of the sentence that was presented.

'The light *of* the *portal *and the *room* snubbed out, and I fell from the bottom into whatever lay before the great beyond.'

Midway through the piece I understood what you were getting at but do you see how the word 'snubbed' (snuffed) is interacting with the previous words 'portal' and 'room'. It's directly pointing to the more earthly light of both those things. At first I thought it was going to be science fiction because of 'portal'.


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## Theglasshouse

Themightyaz. I need your help to see if I am stringing these sentences correctly together. I am rewriting a short story. I am giving a content warning for violence as I tried to show and tell too much. How I stringed them was with "and so," and trying to picture it with my mind. I am also reading some light material which the sense of style and have a long way to go. I will go to do some other things. Thank you. I see I misspelled a few words. I  did some minor changes. I hope this isn't inconvenient. Thanks for your help. I know this is somewhat comedic in tone but it is based on my own experiences. I tried to go for something serious. I won't edit it further and thank you. (all I need wish to know is it is connecting logically from one sentence to the next) (This is a warning for those who don't like violent scenes but nothing bad happens)

The wind tossed the nimbus clouds like insignificant ragdolls without any human feelings that drifted lonely without a care in the world.

Alfaro walked inside a park’s playground. He walked in front of some children that played on the seesaws. The seesaws creaked under the full weight of two children.

Rain fell from the sky on a merry-go-round. It spun round and round playing music. The melody played invisible and as Alfaro approached he heard it closest near a glass house that had a gable and an expansive roof. The children in the merry go round played like there was no tomorrow. They thought they would be forever young. They lived in the moment. Not judging tomorrow and not thinking of dreams.

Birds splashed in a water fountain washing their feathers in the bird bath. They appeared startled as Alfaro picked up the shoes that appeared to be without laces. This frightened the birds. They flew away. The smell of blood on the shoes reached his nostrils. He grabbed it with his hands. Alfaro carried the shoes away. _These must be shoes that belong to someone who got hurt. It is an uncomfortable sighting and is a lot of blood._

He flicked a light switch in the lighthouse that played a movie. The moody music played audibly. The music made the children panic. A little girl screamed. The man raised an ax on a woman. It narrowly missed the actress in the movie. She darted off in the distance silently. The crescent moon was beaming above her. All the man had managed to do was give a hair cut. The killer looked in the darkness. He went back and forth trying to locate the shoe prints on the soil. The woman went over hills, probably mountains, and left him all behind. A owl hooted in a tree. Then the credits of the movie rolled. “Now we will bring to you a word from our film producers and sponsors. “

A woman looked glaring at Alfaro. Her husband watched the movie from the very beginning to the end. A loud laugh came from him.

“What an awful movie. There is no payoff or ending,” said his wife. “There is a thin line between horror, entertainment, and your laughing. How could you scare the children of the park? One of them has gone missing. You got distracted watching a horrible horror film.”


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## Kent_Jacobs

Theglasshouse said:


> The wind tossed the nimbus clouds like insignificant ragdolls without any human feelings that drifted lonely without a care in the world.


First of all, I don't think 'ragdoll' is a good metaphor for clouds. Remember to match verbs, nouns and adjectives in order to create a coherent image and logical movement/physics. Consider 'tossed'. What image does that throw up? A sea could toss a boat because you get the idea the boat is being thrown around. What does a cloud being tossed around look like? 'Insignificant ragdoll'. Is there such a thing as 'significant ragdoll' and if so, what would it mean? You want the feeling of looseness and you get that from 'ragdoll' alone. No need for a modifier. Ragdolls don't possess human feeling so to point out they haven't got human feelings is redundant. Then you say they 'drifted lonely' which is at odds with 'tossed'. 'without a care in the world' adds nothing to either the ragdoll or the clouds. Just think about those elements I've just mentioned and rethink this sentence. I can't offer an alternative without changing the words, the metaphor or removing much of the second half of the sentence. I'd basically end up writing my own sentence. 


Theglasshouse said:


> *1/ *Alfaro walked inside a park’s playground. *2/* He walked in front of some children that played on the seesaws. *3/* The seesaws creaked under the full weight of two children.


*1/* Can you walk 'inside' a playground? Think about the space it occupies. A playground can be inside a park but you can't walk inside a playground, it's the thing that's contained, not something that contains. *'Alfaro entered the playground.'* *2/* I've removed 'walked' but if I hadn't you'd have repeated 'walked' again. You need to pay close attention to things like this because you do it quite a lot. It's quite easy to spot if you think about it carefully. To link these two sentences: *'Alfaro entered the playground and approached children playing on a seesaw.' 3/ *You're thinking too modularly with each sentence, making them choppy or creating a repetitive rhythm. To bring this into the other two sentences and create flow: *'Alfaro entered the playground and approached two children playing on a seesaw, which creaked under their weight.'* You can also get rid of 'playing' because if children are on a see-saw, they're assumed to be playing. Plus the see-saw is creaking so clearly it's being used. 


Theglasshouse said:


> *1/* Rain fell from the sky on a merry-go-round. *2/* It spun round and round playing music. *3/* The melody played invisible and as Alfaro approached he heard it closest near a glass house that had a gable and a expansive roof. *4/* The children in the merry go round played like there was no tomorrow. They thought they would be forever young. They lived in the moment. Not judging tomorrow and not thinking of dreams.


*1/* If I said it was raining, where would you look? Does rain move upwards or does it always fall? I know those sound like silly questions but remember what I said about 'assumed states'. Add in a verb to create some movement: *'Rain lashed a merry-go-round.' *That's just an example and probably too much for your needs. Regardless, the first question I ask is why are the children playing in the rain? I'm assuming you address that or at least point it out. As you know, I critique as I go so I can pick up on any questions and inconsistency that may make a reader falter. The question immediately stopped me there.* 2/ *'spun' has a velocity. It isn't slow, it's fast. A coin is spun, a wheel spins but a cog turns. As I keep saying, think carefully about how words interact within a sentence or idea/metaphor/simile/etc. It has to be consistent or the image breaks down. If I were to put these two sentences together, I'd rearrange a lot and add in a little detail: *'A roundabout turned slowly and played [insert name of tune depending on what mood you want], rain spattering on its freshly painted boards.' 3/ *You've got 'playing' and 'played' close together in two separate sentences. As I said you do this a lot. Avoid it at all cost and use it sparingly for 'effect', not as a grammatical norm. Three things that will immediately put a reader off are: sentences of the same length with no punctuation to break up the rhythm, starting sentences with the same word more than twice, and repeating words consecutively, especially if they're separated by a full stop. It makes it appear as if the writer has forgotten the previous sentence already, which then translates to the reader thinking it wasn't memorable enough to remember themselves. It shows a lack of confidence. A melody cannot be 'invisible'. That has to do with sight. Words > logic > clarity of image. 'he heard it closest'. It's a sound. What it is about sound when you get closer to it? It gets 'louder'. Think about what you're saying and match the words. Words > logic > clarity of image. Don't be so quick to move from one idea to the next. It's as if you've got the reader by the arm and keep tugging them away from the thing you've just pointed out. Hold those moments, make them matter, give them purpose. As soon as the reader gets introduced to the roundabout, you immediate tug them to a glass house. They're going to get whiplash! Ease up there. Swim in the sentences, meaning and mood. If what you're introducing the reader to doesn't matter much, sum it up as a whole and get them to what does matter. *'As Alfaro grew closer, the melody grew louder, and he found himself standing beside a glass house with gable end and expansive roof'.* I've deliberately written it that way to show how repeating a word CAN work if you pay close attention to the effect you're trying to create. Here the repeat of 'grew' (emphasising both proximity and sound) pulls the camera in. The only question I'm left with there is can you have a 'glass house' with a gable end and expansive roof? Do those two pieces of detail detract from the image you want? If it's an all glass building, end the sentence on 'glass house'. If there's a sort of glass house I'm not aware of, leave in the extra detail. *4/* From this point on there's very little point in me giving you stylistic advice (like repeating 'point' ... lol). This is something you MUST stop doing. It's in all of your writing and it jumps out every time. You're making broad, sweeping statements about themes that should be woven subtextually into the prose. They are things you don't draw attention to but rather layer in subtly and hope the reader picks up on them. If they don't they don't. That doesn't matter. What matters is you write an entertaining story first and foremost. Never ever have these upper most in your mind when you write a story, unless you're a literary genius, and neither of us are close to that. Let them grow organically when 'natural' opportunities arrive. Force them in and lose the reader. 


Theglasshouse said:


> *1/* Birds splashed in a water fountain washing their feathers in the bird bath. *2/* They appeared startled as Alfaro picked up the shoes that appeared to be without laces. *3/* This frightened the birds. *3/* They flew away. *4/* The smell of blood on the shoes reached his nostrils. *5/* He grabbed it with his hands. *6/* Alfaro carried the shoes away. *6/* _These must be shoes that belong to someone who got hurt. _*6/*_ It is an uncomfortable sighting and is a lot of blood._


This paragraph is a perfect example of how you create a disjointed effect between sentences and repeat words unnecessarily. Each is a separate statement with no real flow between them. They have a subject in common but little else. It's turning a scene into a list. *  1/ *It's raining. Why would the birds bother washing their feathers in a bird bath? Think of some other activity for the birds and mention something like 'despite the bad weather' (Just to avoid using 'rain' again). *2/* The birds only 'appeared' to be startled and the shoes only 'appeared' to be without laces. (repeated 'appeared') Were the birds startled? Did the shoes have laces? We don't know yet. Be emphatic. Be confident. Readers like confident and emphatic writing. You're building trust with your reader.* 'Alfaro startled them when he picked up a pair of shoes without laces.' 3/ *We know the birds are startled, making 'this frightened the birds' (repeated 'birds') redundant. You've used 'the' for the shoes but we've never seen them before. Use 'a' if we haven't been introduced to something and 'the' after we have. That can change slightly due to the 'assumed state'. If you're describing a kitchen, it's OK to say 'Paul walked over to the cooker' because it's assumed a kitchen has a cooker. On the other hand you'd write 'Paul walked over to a birdcage' because it's not something you would normally find in a kitchen. Then you can use 'the' for the birdcage because we've been introduced to it. Bring the next image into the first image: *'Alfaro startled them and they flew away, as he stooped to pick up a pair of shoes without laces.'* *4/* It's raining and the shoes would now be wet. Depending on how long it's been raining and how fresh the blood was, the blood would be odourless or washed off. Or at least Alfaro would have to bring them up close to smell them. Neither rings true for me considering the scene as a whole. He would see the blood though, perhaps.* 'On closer inspection, Alfaro saw stains, washed thin by the rain but almost definitely blood.'* *5/*  You said he 'picked up the shoes' and now you're saying 'he grabbed it with his hands'. First of all he's already picked up the shoes, and secondly you've used 'it' (meaning one) and this is pair of shoes, requiring 'them' (meaning more than one). *6/ *Repeat of 'shoes' in this sentence and in the next. Bring these together: *'Alfaro left the playground, wondering how badly injured the owner of the shoes had been.' *Again, it's raining, so unless you specifically mention the shoes looked freshly discarded, there wouldn't be a lot of blood on the shoes. 


Theglasshouse said:


> *1/* He flicked a light switch in the lighthouse that played a movie. *2/* The moody music played audibly. *2/* The music made the children panic. A little girl screamed. *2/* The man raised an ax on a woman. It narrowly missed the actress in the movie. She darted off in the distance silently. The crescent moon beaming above her. All the man had managed to do was give a hair cut. The killer looked in the darkness. He went back and forth trying to locate the shoe prints on the soil. The woman went over hills, probably mountains, and left him all behind. A owl hooted in a tree. Then the credits of the movie rolled. “Now we will bring to you a word from our film producers and sponsors. “


*1/* We've not been introduced to the lighthouse which means 'the lighthouse' will make the reader believe they may have missed a mention of it. They'll probably go back and double check, as I did. This is one of the important things about getting 'the' and 'a' right. This is also a big jump. You need something to lead us into the scene that connects he previous scene. You don't need a lengthy drive home or a long trek, just something simple like 'When he finally got back home to his lighthouse ...'. 'his' negates the need for either 'the' or 'a'. Did the switch play a movie? Or was it what the switch turned on that played the movie? Or perhaps the lighthouse itself played a movie? Words > logic > clarity of image.* 'When he finally got back home to his lighthouse, he flicked on the TV and watched a movie.'* That clarifies it but doesn't solve the problem of it feeling far too fast. It lacks mood and only comes across as information, not a life lived. Not a 'scene'. Let him get home, settle in for a few minutes, perhaps get out of his wet clothes, find a reason to ignore the blood on the shoes long enough to consider watching a movie in the first place, and then let him watch that movie. Would he be able to forget the shoes entirely? Perhaps he's been thinking about the shoes while he's settling in, which is the very reason he decides to watch a movie? Perhaps he thinks he's distracting himself but how he perceives the images and sounds in the movie are effected by a subconscious still fixated on the shoes? But you wouldn't say that out loud, you'd layer it into what he's seeing and hearing on screen and keep it subtextual. That makes the choice of movie important. Plenty to play with there. *2/* '*The* moody music ...', '*The* children ...', '*The* man raised an axe ...' Grrrr! What children? Where are they? What's the scene in the film? Repeat of 'music' in the following line. Repeat of 'Movie' from the first line. She's an actress. Where else would she be? 


Theglasshouse said:


> A woman looked glaring at Alfaro. Her husband watched the movie from the very beginning to the end. A loud laugh came from him.
> 
> “What an awful movie. There is no payoff or ending,” said his wife. “There is a thin line between horror, entertainment, and your laughing. How could you scare the children of the park? One of them has gone missing. You got distracted watching that horrible horror film.”


I'm going to have to call it a day there. There's so much to unpack here, just in these last two paragraphs and I'm getting double vision. In this little snippet you have a enough material for an entire (and lengthy) chapter, with two distinct scenes. You could even easily have two chapters here. You're rushing, repeating and not letting things flow. Be in the moment, draw the reader in and wear those scenes as if you were getting ready for the most important day of your life.


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## Theglasshouse

It's a complete response. I think I definitely need some kind of special instruction. I am going to ask my family if they can take me to a special education teacher. I did not know my writing was seriously that disjointed and repetitive. Maybe I am in the wrong hobby but I won't know until I go. I applaud you for your serious tone. I don't feel offended. If anything my understanding of my writing problems is much greater. Yes I repeat a lot to try to connect the sentences and create a logical relationship. I will however take your word for it seriously.  I think I need a reality check. I wish this came naturally to me and instinctively to me but it does not. As for that story it will be postponed until I can ascertain there is a real solution to the problem. My birthday is soon and I don't want to waste money on anything writing related if I cannot improve. Thanks anyways for your serious response. It was tactful and on the point. Some people do not know how to relate things from a personal perspective. I mean after all I am affected somewhat by my circumstances, and usually people who point this out sounded angry in the past. Thank you for going in such detail. I will leave the rewrite for when someone analyzes this. I won't say a thing until they read it, to double check. I doubt I will find a special education teacher that is a writer and whose focus could become style. Which is a big issue besides working on composition skills I assume. I hope in the future I can get rid of the disjointedness which is the biggest issue by far in my opinion.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Theglasshouse said:


> It's a complete response. I think I definitely need some kind of special instruction. I am going to ask my family if they can take me to a special education teacher. I did not know my writing was seriously that disjointed and repetitive. Maybe I am in the wrong hobby but I won't know until I go. I applaud you for your serious tone. I don't feel offended. If anything my understanding of my writing problems is much greater. Yes I repeat a lot to try to connect the sentences and create a logical relationship. I will however take your word for it seriously.  I think I need a reality check. I wish this came naturally to me and instinctively to me but it does not. As for that story it will be postponed until I can ascertain there is a real solution to the problem. My birthday is soon and I don't want to waste money on anything writing related if I cannot improve. Thanks anyways for your serious response. It was tactful and on the point. Some people do not know how to relate things from a personal perspective. I mean after all I am affected somewhat by my circumstances, and usually people who point this out sounded angry in the past. Thank you for going in such detail. I will leave the rewrite for when someone analyzes this. I won't say a thing until they read it, to double check. I doubt I will find a special education teacher that is a writer and whose focus could become style. Which is a big issue besides working on composition skills I assume. I hope in the future I can get rid of the disjointedness which is the biggest issue by far in my opinion.


You're not in the wrong hobby, you've gotten too obsessed with reading books on writing and trying to be deep and meaningful. Write like you do in your forum comments and forget about anything else other than writing an entertaining story. Don't bother looking at another book on writing for a couple of years.  You're tying yourself in knots with technicalities and that's pulling you in too many different directions. You've got so much you want to say that you lose track of the natural flow and try to jump immediately to the next thing you want to say. Don't be in a rush. Luxuriate in the moments you're trying to create.

Don't get despondent. I don't like patronising people so give my honest opinion. Trust me when I say, the red ink you see here is NOTHING compared to the red ink I add to my own work. What I post here is work that's already gone through the red ink process, and even then I still slap myself about the head. I do nothing in this thread that I don't do to myself.  This is my process.

For the last year I've been concentrating on the craft and writing competency. Once I start writing my novel proper next month I'll be picking the brains of people like vranger, indianroads and bdcharles for advice on the bigger picture. They've actually finished novels. I haven't yet. I can write a good scene but can I sustain an overarching and engaging story with those scenes? Who knows, I might be crap at it! We're all beginners, man.


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## Theglasshouse

Thank you themightyaz. I am thinking you are right about not getting despondent. I am just thinking I need a break until I find a special education teacher who knows about executive dysfunction and treats people with aspergers. You could be right but until I see a teacher or occupational therapist I won't know the situation. I will take a break. I think any small improvement is positive. I will as soon as I see evidence of improvement return to doing writing. Thank you for your alturism.


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## Kent_Jacobs

I'm still picking at this paragraph but what should the bolded line be? Verify, verified or verifying? I might find a different way of expressing it eventually. This just bothers me:

“I said, no.” His voice hadn’t carried, doused by the merriment, but he still felt uncomfortable. He’d much sooner conceal words beneath a breath than chance his own ears *verify* madness. He released Sorrow, gaze slipping back to the bartender. He was busy twisting a cloth inside a dram glass, eyes fidgety, face flushed. When he glanced up, the stranger raised the tankard and gestured for a refill.​


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## Theglasshouse

Maybe hiding madness? It creates a moral ambiguity but I don't know if that might be the word you are looking for to create an effect you desire.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Theglasshouse said:


> Maybe hiding madness? It creates a moral ambiguity but I don't know if that might be the word you are looking for to create an effect you desire.


That's not quite what I want. In the end I might expand on the idea I'm trying to put forward. Sometimes I try to write a pithy sentence that expresses a complex idea when 'more' would be better. This may be one of those cases. It's what I would call a placeholder thought for further examination at a later date. Sometimes, if they express exactly what I want, I'll leave them. Other times I'll expand them quite a bit.


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## bdcharles

I think you need a couple of extra words, otherwise it risks being too obtuse. Maybe 

He’d much sooner conceal words beneath a breath than *take a *chance *on* his own ears *verifying such *madness.


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## Kent_Jacobs

bdcharles said:


> I think you need a couple of extra words, otherwise it risks being too obtuse. Maybe
> 
> He’d much sooner conceal words beneath a breath than *take a *chance *on* his own ears *verifying such *madness.


Yeah, I think a more easily digestible version would be better. I'll be getting back to it as soon as I've moved forward with the scene.


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## Theglasshouse

I would appreciate an opinion on this paragraph themightyaz. I feel confident this one works, but would appreciate your feedback as a generous request. My goal is to know if I improved. I am planning on still withholding posting stories until I get it right consistently. The back up plan is still in effect which is to buy speech therapy materials for my diagnosis. As well as to visit a speech therapist. I would be grateful. Also, I will most likely write short flash pieces. I started with an action which served as the topic sentence.

The bottles full of expensive Amaretto glistened of silver liquor, and these cracked and exploded when he dropped them, and someone went to clean it. A loud explosion of the corked bottles breaking a young man and his sister heard. The brown as chocolate Amontilado bottle had collapsed creating a pool of radiant puddles shining brighter than a polished make-up pocket and hand mirror. The alcohol perfumed the room, and tiny shards of glass from the broken bottle lay invisible on the carpet. It resembled the colors of tears. The black glass shined similar to broken chinks of medieval armor. The shards had fallen on the soggy soiled rug with a resounding clatter. The living room of the house was quiet after that moment of the breaking of the container. It created a so-called storm in the heart when people felt sad as his sister felt trouble someone was about to brood. Her hand moved quickly and brushed it away. The person used a broom. At this point she cried, after having she picked it up and brushed the shards that appeared shaped as if with sharp edges as if crescent moons. With the broom’s sun-lit yellow colored bristles, and she pushed it into the cleaning shovel. She dumped it in the garbage basket as if nothing bad had happened.

Here's a way to describe using some speech pathology structure or vocabulary I learned just today:
What Number Color Mood Background Perspective Size Shape Movement Where When Sound

Thank you themightyaz for the feedback and generous favor.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Theglasshouse said:


> I would appreciate an opinion on this paragraph themightyaz. *->* I feel confident this one works, *->* *b*ut would appreciate your feedback as a generous request.* [new thought but still related]* My goal is to know if I improved. *->* I am planning on still withholding posting stories *->* *u*ntil I get it right consistently. *[new thought but still related]* *T*he back up plan is still in effect *->* *w*hich is to buy speech therapy materials for my diagnosis. *[this should have been a comma, but it still flows] ->* *A*s well as to visit a speech therapist. *[the only misplaced sentence in this post. It should have been after the second sentence]* I would be grateful. *->* *A*lso, I will most likely write short flash pieces. I started with an action which served as the topic sentence.


I'm going to do something slightly different. When I write forum posts, I don't have an editor in my head or consider word choice so much. It's often messy because of that and nothing like my 'writer' prose. When I sit down to 'write', it flicks a switch and I'm in a completely different headset. I think about words and communication completely differently. The same goes for you. For some reason though, when you sit down to write prose, your flow breaks down. But when you write forum posts, the flow is naturally there. It could be slightly better but it's many times better than your 'writer' prose. Consider the above. Each sentence flows naturally from the last, building up a complete thought. This isn't about style, this is about flow, one of the things you really need to work on. 


Theglasshouse said:


> The bottles full of expensive Amaretto glistened of silver liquor, and these cracked and exploded when he dropped them, and someone went to clean it. A loud explosion of the corked bottles breaking a young man and his sister heard. The brown as chocolate Amontilado bottle had collapsed creating a pool of radiant puddles shining brighter than a polished make-up pocket and hand mirror. The alcohol perfumed the room, and tiny shards of glass from the broken bottle lay invisible on the carpet. It resembled the colors of tears. The black glass shined similar to broken chinks of medieval armor. The shards had fallen on the soggy soiled rug with a resounding clatter. The living room of the house was quiet after that moment of the breaking of the container. It created a so-called storm in the heart when people felt sad as his sister felt trouble someone was about to brood. Her hand moved quickly and brushed it away. The person used a broom. At this point she cried, after having she picked it up and brushed the shards that appeared shaped as if with sharp edges as if crescent moons. With the broom’s sun-lit yellow colored bristles, and she pushed it into the cleaning shovel. She dumped it in the garbage basket as if nothing bad had happened.
> 
> Here's a way to describe using some speech pathology structure or vocabulary I learned just today:
> What Number Color Mood Background Perspective Size Shape Movement Where When Sound
> 
> Thank you themightyaz for the feedback and generous favor.


That is going to serve you better than me going through the paragraph you've written as prose. Stop reading books on writing for a while. Stop considering things like 'pathological structure'. Stop using software to help with your writing. You're breaking everything down into component parts too much, and then forgetting what it was you were breaking down. 

Glass, it's not a break from writing you need, it's a break from all the information you've gathered over the years from those damned books. Look at your forum posts. Those are written without thinking about those damned books. Consider that your style and build on it.


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## Theglasshouse

If the flow is the problem I have with my writing then I will focus on trying to improve it (instead of description). I know you most likely won't believe me, but when I write I don't draft these posts and I struggle with writing stories that flow. I might benefit from drafting my story paragraphs. The paragraphs are made on the spot and I probably achieve a good coherence for the most part since that part of the brain is unaffected. I don't truly know the answer. I think if I mention my previous speech pathologist's comments, it could increase the understanding of the issue I have and at the same time it presents a paradox. She said to me that my speech is unaffected. She recommended dictation. One strategy people use with dyslexia and autism is mind mapping. She recommended it to me along with dictation (she recommended any dictation approach and I have a microphone), and a book called visual transformation of knowledge (I don't know where my copy is to be found). It's another mind mapping approach. She also recommended me to use inspiration. That is cheap on Mac last time I checked. If I try to rewrite that paragraph I think I would fail by using intuition. I think I could use instructions. This is not something I think you know. What I did this time was to simply use a speech pathologists ideas to describe (a program for people with poor visualization skills because of autism). I think it helped, but you said I need to work on flow. That's part of the problem and speech therapists try to solve that because of the sticking to one main idea when writing a paragraph.

For mind mapping I have always  looking for a user friendly book for all learners. 






						Mapping Inner Space: Learning and Teaching Visual Mapping: Margulies, Nancy, Maal, Nusa: 9781569761380: Amazon.com: Books
					


Mapping Inner Space: Learning and Teaching Visual Mapping [Margulies, Nancy, Maal, Nusa] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Mapping Inner Space: Learning and Teaching Visual Mapping




					www.amazon.com
				




This one is the most user friendly one I have found on a search on the web by researching and is written by someone with dyslexia.

I appreciated your feedback since now I think I will focus on flow. I think craft books will be something I refrain from purchasing as I focus on the "how" to write with flow.

So I never organize the paragraphs since I don't know how and lack instructions. If ordering sentences I don't know unless someone points it out to me what is wrong.

I appreciate your help on this important subject. I think I will check here after I use the strategies to improve flow when I discover them. I don't know what these are. I am work by researching. If I knew a teacher in special education I would ask them what is the easiest way to improve coherence. One brother still has contacts with a school since he remained friends with teachers. But we are talking about a school that is expensive for a family that has retired. I will ask my brother. I can't guarantee I will get answers. The school helps super rich people. The prices have gone up. For example, to attend 12 grade it costs 20,000 dollars for one child for one year. It's the number one school for a reason. All teachers are Canadian or American in that school. (they charge a lot obviously to be a tutor so I don't know if I can hire one and I need to ask my brother)

Thank you for your reply, and I will try this when I buy that mind mapping book, and try the solutions at home. It supposedly works for improving flow. I need pre-writing and pre-planning if I go by her statements (speech pathologist). Like I said I can't see a speech pathologist until 1-2 months. In march I will go and you have given plenty of food for thought on what is wrong with the writing. Thank you themightyaz.

I will also search online for online classes for creating paragraphs that flow from one sentence to the next in paragraph writing of stories. That will be more practical than books. Or  a class also with a focus on incorporation of a mind mapping approach and flow. Again thanks. Maybe a special education webinar or a personal teacher to give feedback. Again thanks. I doubt I will write it correctly the first time, and it would need many drafts. I didn't use a craft book to write the paragraph. I'll show you a link that inspired me:



			https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0011/8675/8714/files/VVWB_Sample_Packet_Grades_3-6_dc8e6f15-ca02-48f9-8e89-86107133f6bd.pdf?v=1631565333
		


That's the book I tried to use to describe better but it does not address flow in that sample of the book. It says the program lets and helps you focus on one main idea. That main idea is one of the goals of the program. I assume it helps with making descriptions flow.

Again, thanks for the help.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Theglasshouse said:


> If the flow is the problem I have with my writing then I will focus on trying to improve it (instead of description). I know you most likely won't believe me, but when I write I don't draft these posts and I struggle with writing stories that flow. I might benefit from drafting my story paragraphs. The paragraphs are made on the spot and I probably achieve a good coherence for the most part since that part of the brain is unaffected. I don't truly know the answer. I think if I mention my previous speech pathologist's comments, it could increase the understanding of the issue I have and at the same time it presents a paradox. She said to me that my speech is unaffected. She recommended dictation. One strategy people use with dyslexia and autism is mind mapping. She recommended it to me along with dictation (she recommended any dictation approach and I have a microphone), and a book called visual transformation of knowledge (I don't know where my copy is to be found). It's another mind mapping approach. She also recommended me to use inspiration. That is cheap on Mac last time I checked. If I try to rewrite that paragraph I think I would fail by using intuition. I think I could use instructions. This is not something I think you know. What I did this time was to simply use a speech pathologists ideas to describe (a program for people with poor visualization skills because of autism). I think it helped, but you said I need to work on flow. That's part of the problem and speech therapists try to solve that because of the sticking to one main idea when writing a paragraph.
> 
> For mind mapping I have always  looking for a user friendly book for all learners.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mapping Inner Space: Learning and Teaching Visual Mapping: Margulies, Nancy, Maal, Nusa: 9781569761380: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> 
> 
> Mapping Inner Space: Learning and Teaching Visual Mapping [Margulies, Nancy, Maal, Nusa] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Mapping Inner Space: Learning and Teaching Visual Mapping
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one is the most user friendly one I have found on a search on the web by researching and is written by someone with dyslexia.
> 
> I appreciated your feedback since now I think I will focus on flow. I think craft books will be something I refrain from purchasing as I focus on the "how" to write with flow.
> 
> So I never organize the paragraphs since I don't know how and lack instructions. If ordering sentences I don't know unless someone points it out to me what is wrong.
> 
> I appreciate your help on this important subject. I think I will check here after I use the strategies to improve flow when I discover them. I don't know what these are. I am work by researching. If I knew a teacher in special education I would ask them what is the easiest way to improve coherence. One brother still has contacts with a school since he remained friends with teachers. But we are talking about a school that is expensive for a family that has retired. I will ask my brother. I can't guarantee I will get answers. The school helps super rich people. The prices have gone up. For example, to attend 12 grade it costs 20,000 dollars for one child for one year. It's the number one school for a reason. All teachers are Canadian or American in that school. (they charge a lot obviously to be a tutor so I don't know if I can hire one and I need to ask my brother)
> 
> Thank you for your reply, and I will try this when I buy that mind mapping book, and try the solutions at home. It supposedly works for improving flow. I need pre-writing and pre-planning if I go by her statements (speech pathologist). Like I said I can't see a speech pathologist until 1-2 months. In march I will go and you have given plenty of food for thought on what is wrong with the writing. Thank you themightyaz.
> 
> I will also search online for online classes for creating paragraphs that flow from one sentence to the next in paragraph writing of stories. That will be more practical than books. Or  a class also with a focus on incorporation of a mind mapping approach and flow. Again thanks. Maybe a special education webinar or a personal teacher to give feedback. Again thanks. I doubt I will write it correctly the first time, and it would need many drafts. I didn't use a craft book to write the paragraph. I'll show you a link that inspired me:
> 
> 
> 
> https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0011/8675/8714/files/VVWB_Sample_Packet_Grades_3-6_dc8e6f15-ca02-48f9-8e89-86107133f6bd.pdf?v=1631565333
> 
> 
> 
> That's the book I tried to use to describe better but it does not address flow in that sample of the book. It says the program lets and helps you focus on one main idea. That main idea is one of the goals of the program. I assume it helps with making descriptions flow.
> 
> Again, thanks for the help.


You're a describing a problem you don't seem to have in forum posts. Look at your first paragraph in this reply for instance. If your struggles with writing 'prose' was entirely down to autism then you would have the same problem here, but you haven't. Ask yourself why? What is it about your mindset when approaching 'prose' that removes the natural flow you have when posting in forum posts? For some reason, it's holding you back. If what you write is better than when you follow instructions in books, what does that tell you? I know from working with some autistic people and having a friend who was also autistic, that obsession with things can get too much. Let go, Glass. You're holding onto an idea that's weighing you down. You have no demands of yourself when you post on forums. You have no set of rules when you post on forums. You're not 'ticking' boxes when you write on forums. You let go and the result is clear: It's BETTER. 'Worry' itself is what's holding you back.

Don't worry, just write, as you do here.


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## Theglasshouse

I am going to contact a teacher on YouTube who left their information. They are suggesting arranging from old to new. They don't have classes on their website. You make a good argument on why it could work (despite autism). However, there are other ways to achieve it. If I go to other videos it refers to theme, substitution, reference and so on. The teacher who left the email talks about flow and refers to it as :
Make Your Writing Flow | Ideas: Cohesion, Coherence, and Organization​

I will kindly ask for classes that he may know of around the 31st of march.

I appreciate what you did. I hope I make a reasonable request to this teacher. I'll ask about any books as well for when it turns into March because that is when I can take any class. If a book is recommended that I could try to purchase it this month.

The video was posted last year.






						Writing, Teaching, Faith | andrewbashford.com
					


Welcome to andrewbashford.com! Writing, teaching, faith, and more.





					www.andrewbashford.com


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## Kent_Jacobs

Theglasshouse said:


> I am going to contact a teacher on YouTube who left their information. They are suggesting arranging from old to new. They don't have classes on their website. You make a good argument on why it could work (despite autism). However, there are other ways to achieve it. If I go to other videos it refers to theme, substitution, reference and so on. The teacher who left the email talks about flow and refers to it as :
> Make Your Writing Flow | Ideas: Cohesion, Coherence, and Organization​
> 
> I will kindly ask for classes that he may know of around the 31st of march.
> 
> I appreciate what you did. I hope I make a reasonable request to this teacher. I'll ask about any books as well for when it turns into March because that is when I can take any class. If a book is recommended that I could try to purchase this month.
> 
> The video was posted last year.
> I am going to contact a teacher on YouTube who left their information. They are suggesting arranging from old to new. They don't have classes on their website. You make a good argument on why it could work (despite autism). However, there are other ways to achieve it. If I go to other videos it refers to theme, substitution, reference and so on. The teacher who left the email talks about flow and refers to it as :
> Make Your Writing Flow | Ideas: Cohesion, Coherence, and Organization​
> 
> I will kindly ask for classes that he may know of around the 31st of march.
> 
> I appreciate what you did. I hope I make a reasonable request to this teacher. I'll ask about any books as well for when it turns into March because that is when I can take any class. If a book is recommended that I could try to purchase this month.
> 
> The video was posted last year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Writing, Teaching, Faith | andrewbashford.com
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to andrewbashford.com! Writing, teaching, faith, and more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.andrewbashford.com


The thing is though, this video talks about semantic flow (the flow of ideas). What you want is the other video he mentioned which is about making your writing flow. You're putting the cart before the horse and that's confusing you. You're not alone you know. It's one of the reasons I started this thread. Don't think big 'intellectual' ideas, morals, ethics and all that other stuff that only serves to make it even harder to navigate your way through a story. As I said before, neither of us are literary geniuses. Concentrate on writing a straightforward and entertaining story. That's what I do, but it doesn't mean there isn't (or will never be) anything deeper in there. As I said to you in my The Sixth Chamber thread, I often write pithy sentences summing up something 'beneath the skin' and they're often little placeholders. Sometimes they're all I need but other times I'll go through in a later draft and really pick apart the idea I'm trying to convey. Sometimes I'll even layer them so thinly they're almost there for my own pleasure. I still write to entertain though. That's my one and only focus as I write and will always be my one and only focus.

edit: That video is about writing 'papers', not creative prose. Nothing he said there really gave me food for thought. It's cold, calculated and mechanical.


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## Theglasshouse

His background supposedly from the website page is rhetoric, creative writing, and others.



> From there, I studied linguistics (to figure out the language), creative writing (to hone the craft), and rhetoric (to immerse myself in the theory of effective writing). I've also taught college composition and creative writing, and I've spent some time in writing program administration.



I'll keep searching to find which video will work for me. I haven't sent the email, but I will now. Because he knows more than me maybe he can recommend some extra help I hope. I'll keep searching for more videos on flow incase I find a teacher that describes my problems.

He is going to post more videos supposedly. I'll ask specifically for creative writing (I haven't sent it yet).


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## Kent_Jacobs

This is interesting to watch:


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## Theglasshouse

I'll watch it tomorrow. I enrolled in two classes that are webinars and now it is about 1:30 a.m. in the morning here. The classes are on paragraphing with a focus on unity and creative writing skills, which I hope helps me develop a first draft using a more structured approach that will result in coherence. Thanks for posting it.


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## Theglasshouse

She wanted to take out the garbage. She lifted the lid of the trash can. She touched the wet and cold exterior of the plastic wastebasket that smelled of rotten leftovers and uneaten heaps of spoiled rice. She opened a garbage bag with her hands to insert the broken pieces of a liquor bottle by throwing them. Then she picked up the white trash bag to peer inside it's hollow insides. An angelic white light of a stage light instrument trickled inside of the trash in the deep darkness of night. Her hands slumped moving downwards with her back arched and she dumped the glass pieces and then took the bag. The bag crinkled, it's wrinkled lines creasing visibly sagging. A musical cacophony sounded inside the trash as it rattled with the bits of the transient ghostly tune slowly disappearing with the shuffled parts of the transparent broken glass bottle scattered like a gambler’s blackjack chips.
(I had to also consult the dictionary and thesaurus for this exercise and read it out loud)
I am now watching YouTube videos in order to describe. I did watch one person taking out their trash and the advantage of rewinding and replaying is clear. After reading a book by a poetry teacher I think this will help with cohesion or flow (the art of description which I actually like a lot). Description is a matter of perception. You must experience something. That's something I never did. I never used videos to experience something. I would write using my imagination unaided by pictures or videos. So with that in mind I wrote a small paragraph here. So for example to describe fishing a person might need to watch a video on fishing. Any activity that takes part in a setting. Experiencing creates perception and allows us to describe what we perceive.

I liked how Pinker argues to use passive in order to write more coherently.  In fact I did read it somewhere in his book sense of style. Thanks for posting the video. It's an excellent review. He's quite a comedian even though a linguist and has an excellent presenter personality. He makes it fun.

I like the advice to show a draft to a reader. I can't do this always. I also like waiting. Unfortunately that is what usually happens. I like how he says rules area pseudo controversy. But it is actually that grammarians cannot agree that are writers, dictionary guidelines, and encyclopedias.

Digital technology or the internet can make grammar more incomprehensible.  I finished watching the video a few moments ago.

For creative writing, one of the best tools is Collin's guide to writing. I ordered it today.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Theglasshouse said:


> *1/* *She* wanted to take out the garbage. *1/* *She* lifted the lid of the trash can. *1/* *She* touched the wet and cold exterior of the plastic wastebasket that smelled of rotten leftovers and uneaten heaps of spoiled rice.* 2/* *She* opened a garbage bag with her hands to insert the broken pieces of a liquor bottle by throwing them. *3/ *Then she picked up the white trash bag to peer inside it's hollow insides. *4/* An angelic white light of a stage light instrument trickled inside of the trash in the deep darkness of night. *5/* Her hands slumped moving downwards with her back arched and she dumped the glass pieces and then took the bag. *6/* The bag crinkled, it's wrinkled lines creasing visibly sagging. *7/* A musical cacophony sounded inside the trash as it rattled with the bits of the transient ghostly tune slowly disappearing with the shuffled parts of the transparent broken glass bottle scattered like a gambler’s blackjack chips.


You need to reduce repeated information, uniform sentence lengths, and starting sentences with the same word. *1/* Why tell the reader she wants to take out the garbage? Just have her taking out the garbage. In sentence three, you say 'she touched' which makes it sound as if she deliberately reached in to do just that. I'm going to assume that's not exactly what you meant: *'She lifted the lid of the trash can, accidentally touching the wet and cold exterior. It smelt of rotten leftovers and uneaten heaps of spoiled rice.'* *2/* If you open something, what do you do it with? Your hands. I'm totally confused by this sentence. Are you trying to say how the bottle was broken? 'to insert' but then 'by throwing' doesn't fit together. The two are completely different actions.* 'She pulled open the plastic garbage bag stuffed inside and inserted broken pieces of a liquor bottle.'* *3/* I'd bring this into the previous sentence. You seem to feel the need to explain every element of movement, which is part of the reason you often repeat information: *'She pulled open the plastic garbage bag stuffed inside and inserted broken pieces of a liquor bottle, then picked it up and peered inside.'* *4/* You've repeated 'light' here. You need to make your mind up what that light is. Is it 'angelic' or is it 'stage light instrument'. I'm not entirely sure what that means though so I'll go with 'angelic'. Does light trickle? I'm not getting a clear image there. You've said 'inside of the trash' so do you mean the light was already in the trash? If so, where is it trickling from or to? SO many problems here. I'm going to have to guess. I'd only modify 'light' if it wasn't 'white', unless it was particularly blinding, so I'll run with that. It comes over as slightly over the top so I'll run with that too: *'A blinding white light emanated from the bag, filling the deep darkness of night.' 5/ *I thought she'd already dumped the pieces of broken glass? Then she took the bag AGAIN. That first action I'm not clear on but I think I understand. Personally, I'd just add a little detail to the sentence before: *'A blinding white light emanated from the bag, filling the deep darkness of night, and bringing her to her knees.'* *6/ *Look at that short sentence. Three times you say the same thing in a matter of 9 words. First thing I'd ask myself though is is it even needed? *'The bag crinkled and sagged.' 7/ *A 'cacophony' is a harsh mixture of sounds. 'musical' is the opposite. I'll just rewrite this because it'd take me an age to pick the bones out of this  *'A ghostly tune played amongst the garbage, broken glass scattering like gambler's jacks.' *Even with my adjustments, I'm still seeing major logistic problems. Did the bag split? *'The bag crinkled and sagged. A ghostly tune played amongst the garbage as the bottom split and broken glass scattered like gambler's jacks.'  *


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## Theglasshouse

Thank you for pointing out the redundancies. I will underline those words ( that are repeated or implied) for future drafts. I can learn from that. I think I will simplify my vocabulary which is probably why this have given me so much trouble. I will use simple words which is something else I can learn from you. Trickled was the only word I did not look up. I assumed the definition and that created an error. I see your point on the sentence where I repeat. Repetition is indeed a big weakness. My style has lots of it.

I agree that cacophany can't be musical. I am stretching the definition so it is incorrect or implying it is. It is illogical.

Hands is too obvious then I will assume. Judging by what you said it is a form of repetition.

Two different actions in a sentence is a mistake I assume. To throw can't be the word I need. I need insert. I agree.



> You need to reduce repeated information, uniform sentence lengths, and starting sentences with the same word.



Ok I will try to change my style to this.

I did mean to say she deliberately touched the trash can but I will agree with the explanation and example.



> If so, where is it trickling from or to? SO many problems here. I'm going to have to guess. I'd only modify 'light' if it wasn't 'white', unless it was particularly blinding, so I'll run with that. It comes over as slightly over the top so I'll run with that to


I am trying to understand honestly. I am guessing you need more context to make sense of it. Because that light needs to be referred to from where it is coming from. It was I know the sentence with least relation. Then I repeated the garbage bag.

Thanks for taking the time and patience. I very much appreciated it. The logic must be consistent. I was going for something poetic but it created mistakes.

I am thinking critically this needs to be much shorter than it is.

Would these be editing skills? I can take a class a udemy. Thanks and you have my heartfelt thanks.


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## Kent_Jacobs

How should I write this? This is third person limited and so I want even the general prose to reflect something about the protag. In this instance, even though you do get rough people and crime, Yarrod sees it as 'polite society' compared to the world he deals with. Should I quotify it to reflect a degree of irony perhaps? Or should I leave it without the quotes and assume the reader will realise it's Yarrod's view of 'normal' society? 

Beneath 'polite' society, where bad blood ran, men and monsters fought for control over the very bedrock a fool like this built his ignorance upon.


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## Theglasshouse

This is a tough question for me it seems. I would say educated makes sense in the context. I like the word self-educated but it's not a good match maybe for your story idea. Unless schools exist within that society. It sounds correct to me.
As an alternative I like this word, but I do not know if it is the voice or style you are going for: gentlemanlike.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Theglasshouse said:


> This is a tough question for me it seems. I would say educated makes sense in the context. I like the word self-educated but it's not a good match maybe for your story idea. Unless schools exist within that society. It sounds correct to me.
> As an alternative I like this word, but I do not know if it is the voice or style you are going for: gentlemanlike.


The main reason for the question is: If I put quote marks around the word 'polite', am I intruding upon Yarrod's POV? He thinks it unironically, but without the quote marks, it could be construed as actually referring to middle to upper class. I don't want the reader to think it's actually polite society but rather what Yarrod considers polite society, which is anything other than his own world view. He's at the bottom as far as he's concerned and anything above that he thinks of as 'polite society'.


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## Theglasshouse

edited today (just an opinion):
I consider putting quotation marks there where the word polite is located needs to be justified properly by the plot and the characterization. I think if you insert quotations it might make it lose some of its impact, but if you do it for the following reasons I understand. Though I do get you want to hint at what the character is capable of doing leading to a plot point if that is your intent. It depends if you want to start the plot right away. If not I wouldn't quote it. This is just my one opinion among many to come of your work and here are my reasons why. If for example you want to use polite as a sign of who he is then you I would quote it to make the thought real. It sounds like you are since you have given it careful consideration (deliberation). Characters have personalities and polite could be a part of a character sketch you have planned to readers. Imagine if he says indirectly he is impolite because you implied it by physical, psychological dramatization. You can later build on this. One way is by showing him being himself behaving polite. I in truth have mixed opinions. If it is plot relevant I want to see it affect characters. This is a just one part of a complex answer, but you must decide on the end what to do.  So that is my thought process on how I would decide depending on my goals for the story for that moment in time. Hopefully, this helps you decide on your own. To be a critical thinker is to be an independent thinker, and a good one that makes sound decisions. Hopefully, I have explained why and ways it could be developed if you wish and why. But I am again just representing one opinion. To make the character change you can add something it doesn't have to be description, but affecting the character physically or psychologically. You could make it an action that dramatized and appears to be more or mean more because of the subtext below the surface. Trying to add drama can help you, but that is if you decide to start the scene. Say he is being impolite to gain something or polite. It can work. I hope this helps. But you can make it a mystery and keep the reader reading. What if he is being impolite to someone who is a policeman or authority? Let's say he uses dark humor to upset someone, but says the joke was started by someone who is his enemy in the story. It's probably a bad example. He has something to gain and you never show the reason why until that character appears in the scene. ( the enemy he lied about making the note and the person he is impolite with thinks it's a real suicide letter of his mother trying to harm her herself). It is just an example. That is action. Because it will have dramatic consequences for the characters if it is not acted upon: the police man and his friends, a sourly tempered enemy, and himself if the policeman does something without investigating. Suppose the character made a joke about his enemy from the past joke about messages about suicide his mom wrote and (it never happened in the story) and is an elaborate lie (which could lead to even more consequences in the story's world). The antagonist made his mother write in letter that exchanged messages for money (the arch villain or main enemy of the main character wrote it) which has become a joke in the story she almost does the unthinkable of what she wrote in the letter which he (the enemy and person he continues to hate) then destroyed to get what she wants (she is trying to manipulate people to gain more money). To make him likable I would have him undo his wrongs of the joke which went too far. (maybe he starts to be polite by not saying jokes, not hostile, compliments people, he wears a suit for the occasion he sees the people involved, gives gifts free of charge to people he feels terribly about or for doing something ordinary and something much more if extradorinary). He'd can't get involved violently because it could lead to a crime and the police would take him out of town or hunt him down or chase him out. This is just a different alternative way of doing it. Of course we writers have unique ways of doing things and approaches which varies according to the person and writer because we each have different personalities, styles, preferences, etc.


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## TerraLiga

I'm not sure if this style of writing is relevant, easy to read, too descriptive/wordy or fails in any other way. I'm just not sure. Any guidance or assistance will be gratefully received.



> The resident angrily slammed the half-rotten door to his keep and crunched through the icy mud of the castle bailey towards the main gate. It was barely worth closing for the draft it brought in, but it was one of the few physical and visible markers that formed the boundary between employer and employee.
> 
> Standing at the foot of the frosted wooden staircase and looking up, he opted to drop the remnants of his breakfast he'd brought out with him and use the bannister on his ascent. His overweight, gout-ridden legs crunched through the thin crust of ice on each tread of the stairs as he laboured his way up. Reaching the footway of the battlements above the barbican, he stood sweating and wheezing in his oversize bearskin coat, trumpeting great plumes of condensed hot breath ahead of him.


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## Kent_Jacobs

TerraLiga said:


> I'm not sure if this style of writing is relevant, easy to read, too descriptive/wordy or fails in any other way. I'm just not sure. Any guidance or assistance will be gratefully received.


It's best not to put your work in quotes. It just makes it easier to go through and doesn't require cutting and pasting 

*1/* The resident angrily slammed the half-rotten door to his keep and crunched through the icy mud of the castle bailey towards the main gate. *2/* It was barely worth closing for the draft it brought in, but it was one of the few physical and visible markers that formed the boundary between employer and employee.

*1/* This is a good sentence but you've fallen foul of that dreaded adverb. The action (or the verb you choose to describe it) should be enough to convey what you intend. Here, 'the resident slammed ...' would be enough because we associate the slamming of a door with anger. Other than that, it's fine. *2/* This is slightly problematic because you return to the door after describing a journey. It would be better to adjust the first sentence in some way to keep the two elements (referring to the same thing) closer together. I'll take a quick stab at it but in no way am I suggesting you simply cut and paste. I just want you to see what I mean. I'd like a more specific word than 'resident' if possible, but I'll run with what you have here: *'The resident slammed the door. It was barely worth closing for the draft it brought in, but it was one of the few physical markers that formed the boundary between employer and employee. He crunched through the icy mud of the castle bailey towards the main gate.'* I've removed 'visible' because, without context of why that would be important, it appears to be stating the obvious. Of course you'd see it. I'd probably want to look at smoothing the description of the door with the 'He crunched ...' in some way. Have him look at it or something or even lock it. It's not necessary but it would lessen that immediate jump. 

Standing at the foot of the frosted wooden staircase and looking up, he opted to drop the remnants of his breakfast he'd brought out with him and use the bannister on his ascent. *1/ *His overweight, gout-ridden legs crunched through the thin crust of ice on each tread of the stairs as he laboured his way up. Reaching the footway of the battlements above the barbican, he stood sweating and wheezing in his oversize bearskin coat, trumpeting great plumes of condensed hot breath ahead of him.

*1/* I'm always a little bit wary of being specific and attributing something to only a part of a person. Is it only his legs that are overweight? Which is the most important element there in terms of him wanting to hold the banister? It's the 'gout'. I'd lose 'overweight'. Would it be his legs that crunch through the thin ice or his feet? It's his feet. You've already used 'crunched' once in the previous sentences so if you can I'd change that. Perhaps remove 'through', which makes it a physical action and concentrate only on the sound. This means changing it around a little: *'A thin crust of ice crackled with each footfall as he laboured his way up the stairs on gout-ridden legs'.* Adjust that in your own way though. I'm just showing you what I mean. 

Seriously though, this is good stuff. I don't see any major problems at all. TIGHT.


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## TerraLiga

TheMightyAz said:


> It's best not to put your work in quotes. It just makes it easier to go through and doesn't require cutting and pasting
> 
> *1/* The resident angrily slammed the half-rotten door to his keep and crunched through the icy mud of the castle bailey towards the main gate. *2/* It was barely worth closing for the draft it brought in, but it was one of the few physical and visible markers that formed the boundary between employer and employee.
> 
> *1/* This is a good sentence but you've fallen foul of that dreaded adverb. The action (or the verb you choose to describe it) should be enough to convey what you intend. Here, 'the resident slammed ...' would be enough because we associate the slamming of a door with anger. Other than that, it's fine. *2/* This is slightly problematic because you return to the door after describing a journey. It would be better to adjust the first sentence in some way to keep the two elements (referring to the same thing) closer together. I'll take a quick stab at it but in no way am I suggesting you simply cut and paste. I just want you to see what I mean. I'd like a more specific word than 'resident' if possible, but I'll run with what you have here: *'The resident slammed the door. It was barely worth closing for the draft it brought in, but it was one of the few physical markers that formed the boundary between employer and employee. He crunched through the icy mud of the castle bailey towards the main gate.'* I've removed 'visible' because, without context of why that would be important, it appears to be stating the obvious. Of course you'd see it. I'd probably want to look at smoothing the description of the door with the 'He crunched ...' in some way. Have him look at it or something or even lock it. It's not necessary but it would lessen that immediate jump.
> 
> Standing at the foot of the frosted wooden staircase and looking up, he opted to drop the remnants of his breakfast he'd brought out with him and use the bannister on his ascent. *1/ *His overweight, gout-ridden legs crunched through the thin crust of ice on each tread of the stairs as he laboured his way up. Reaching the footway of the battlements above the barbican, he stood sweating and wheezing in his oversize bearskin coat, trumpeting great plumes of condensed hot breath ahead of him.
> 
> *1/* I'm always a little bit wary of being specific and attributing something to only a part of a person. Is it only his legs that are overweight? Which is the most important element there in terms of him wanting to hold the banister? It's the 'gout'. I'd lose 'overweight'. Would it be his legs that crunch through the thin ice or his feet? It's his feet. You've already used 'crunched' once in the previous sentence so if you can I'd change that. Perhaps remove 'through', which makes it a physical action and concentrate only on the sound. This means changing it around a little: *'A thin crust of ice crackled with each footfall as he laboured his way up the stairs on gout-ridden legs'.* Adjust that in your own way though. I'm just showing you what I mean.
> 
> Seriously though, this is good stuff. I don't see any major problems at all. TIGHT.


Brilliant advice, thank you!


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## Kent_Jacobs

TerraLiga said:


> Brilliant advice, thank you!


No problem. I'm looking forward to seeing more of your stuff. It really is good stuff and something I can learn from.

edit: I meant to ask you, are you a Joe Abercrombie fan by any chance? I was thinking of Glokta when I was reading that.


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## TerraLiga

TheMightyAz said:


> No problem. I'm looking forward to seeing more of your stuff. It really is good stuff and something I can learn from.
> 
> edit: I meant to ask you, are you a Joe Abercrombie fan by any chance? I was thinking of Glokta when I was reading that.


Thank you! I don't read fantasy or even sci-fi, other than Tolkien when I was at school (a long time ago!). I have a vivid imagination and think about scenes from history in my own way.

I'd like to write something, but I don't have the patience or endurance for a novel, so I'd like to write a book of short stories - perhaps all connected in some way.

What are you writing?


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## Kent_Jacobs

TerraLiga said:


> Thank you! I don't read fantasy or even sci-fi, other than Tolkien when I was at school (a long time ago!). I have a vivid imagination and think about scenes from history in my own way.
> 
> I'd like to write something, but I don't have the patience or endurance for a novel, so I'd like to write a book of short stories - perhaps all connected in some way.
> 
> What are you writing?


I'm writing a novel at the moment. I've started but not finished 4 in all in the past. This is though, I need to get it done. You'll see the link in my sig for what I'm working on right now if you want to take a look. You'll need 10 posts to access it.


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## TerraLiga

The Hunted

Faster, faster! I can't go any faster. My muscles are burning, my heart is bursting. I cannot get caught, I must not get caught. I don't want to die. Not today.

The hunter was close behind me a few minutes ago, but I heard a slip and fall and it's fallen back a bit. So many trees and they all look the same. It's dark in this forest. I'm ahead, but by how much? I don't want to look back, just in case. I can't waste time looking back, I've just got to keep running. I'm so scared.

I can feel blood dripping down my face. My head is cut. And my legs; my legs are cut too. From crashing through branches and bushes and undergrowth. I must stop to catch my breath; I can't breathe in and out quickly enough. I can't hear the hunter, but I can't hear anything except my running and my breathing. Maybe I'll be OK if I stop, just for one minute? I'll die anyway if I don't stop. I must stop. I can't breathe.

Look! A fallen tree. Perfect.

OK, lay still. Breathe deep. Try to slow my heart. I'm aching for oxygen. Breathe deep but quietly, my life depends on it. I can't hear anything except my heart. I can feel it fill with my blood and then pushed out again, over and over. My blood cycling, feeding my tired muscles. Even my brain is pulsing. I feel dizzy.

Where am I? I'll just pop my head up a little to look around, just for a second or two. I'm so deep into the forest I'm not sure I'll be able to find my way back. I don't recognise anything! It's almost black now. I can't stay out here all night, the forest is dangerous at night, especially this one. I can't hear anything; maybe I've lost the hunter?

My children, oh, my children. They are safe at home curled up in bed by now, but I can't die without seeing them again, just once more, please! I love them so much. The trouble they get into, always unintentionally inviting problems into our lives. They're just too young to understand. I try my best to teach them to be good, to stay safe and constantly look out for danger. Wouldn't they fall down laughing if they could see me now! I can feel a smile on my face. I haven't felt anything other than fear for hours. It feels good. I wonder if they are missing me. I would normally be home before now. This is a story I'm going to tell them again and again. I think they'll enjoy it.

I think the hunter has gone. Maybe given up or got lost? I'll peep over the tree. It's dark; I can't see anything moving. I can't hear anything except the quiet whispers of the forest. I'll stand slowly using the tree as cover. Nothing. I can see a deer in the distance. A deer wouldn't be here if there was a hunter nearby. There is a bird to my left, maybe an owl, but I can't see it. It's so quiet and peaceful; the soft, fresh forest breeze flutters gently in my face. I can smell bark and leaves and soil. I take in this magical, exhilarating moment. It's beautiful.

Crack. A twig breaks behind me.

I see the deer look at me startled and dart away into the forest. I hear unseen creatures scamper away from me into the undergrowth. The bird perched high to my left launches, panicked. I feel paralysing fear run through my spine. I'm frozen. I don't want to turn around, but I know the hunter is behind me. I think of my family and how much I'll miss them.


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## TerraLiga

I'm looking for feedback on the above short story please.

Are there any obvious errors? Did you feel there was urgency in the character? What do you feel was happening? Who or what was the narrating character? What was you overriding feeling from the story? Finally, can I make it better?

Thank you!


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## Kent_Jacobs

I'll go through this but it's a bit long for this thread.  I've set the limit to sentences or up to three paragraphs, give or take a couple of sentences here and there.



TerraLiga said:


> The Hunted
> 
> Faster, faster! I can't go any faster. My muscles are burning, my heart is bursting. I cannot get caught, I must not get caught. I don't want to die. Not today.
> 
> The hunter was close behind me a few minutes ago, but I heard a slip and fall and it's fallen back a bit. So many trees and they all look the same. It's dark in this forest. I'm ahead, but by how much? I don't want to look back, just in case. I can't waste time looking back, I've just got to keep running. I'm so scared.


How long have you been writing? The last piece I looked at had a steady flow with mid to long length sentences, in line with the 'mood' you were trying to set, whilst here, you've got short and snappy, in line with the hurried and panicked pacing you want. Good stuff. I'd lose that last 'so' though. 'I'm so scared' trivialises the idea of terror. Just write, 'I'm scared.' 


TerraLiga said:


> *1/* I can feel blood dripping down my face. My head is cut. *2/ *And my legs; my legs are cut too. *3/* From crashing through branches and bushes and undergrowth. *4/* I must stop to catch my breath; I can't breathe in and out quickly enough. I can't hear the hunter, but I can't hear anything except my running and my breathing. Maybe I'll be OK if I stop, just for one minute? I'll die anyway if I don't stop. I must stop. I can't breathe.


*1/* You've got quite a few filter words in this piece. Here you've used 'feel'. It's not needed here and in many cases. Does a liquid drip down a surface or from a surface? A liquid would first run over a surface and eventually, when that surface ends, drip from it. To get rid of the filter word and to put the logic right:* 'Blood trickles down my face.'* *2/* This is purely indulgent on my part but I'm wondering what the thinking is behind that repetition of 'legs'. What head space am I meant to be in there. Is he suddenly realising his lets are cut? A sudden dawning of the measures he's taken to escape and what he's put himself through? That semicolon pulled me up there more than anything. It feels like a momentary breath is taken there; a pause for thought, but with that semicolon, it's more in line with reiteration, a strengthening of the facts/idea. If it's a breath, it works. I'd use ellipsis to emphasise it, instead of a semicolon though:* 'And my legs ... my legs are cut too.' 3/* This is a one size fits all problem. You've used 'crashing' and attributed it to three separate objects: branches, bushes and undergrowth. In all honesty, could you really crash through a branch? That would more likely bruise his legs because it wouldn't break. He'd trip over it. I'd also wonder how low these branches are or how tall the protag was. Just pick two OR be more specific with each. You can't get too specific because that would slow down the pace and you're going for quick and breathy. I'd likely opt for a modifier on 'undergrowth', a general term that does in fact include 'bushes.' I'd stick with the general term and write something like: *'From crashing through the unforgiving (or cruel perhaps) undergrowth.'* I prefer 'unforgiving' because it shows us how difficult the task has been. Because I've mentioned taking a breath in the previous sentence, I might even use a comma there instead of a full stop, just to extend that 'pause'. I think I'd also lose 'crashing', a perfectly good verb but with the modification, I don't think it's necessary. With this change, I'd want to add back in some kind of visualisation because I've removed 'crashing'. In which case I'd opt for my second choice: *'And my legs ... my legs are cut too, from wading through the cruel undergrowth.' 4/ *There's no real point in me going through much more in this paragraph. All I'd say is you've used 'breath' and 'stop' too much. You need to condense it. You're over-egging it. You might want to reduce 'breathe' to one instance because you go on to use it even more in the following paragraph. 


TerraLiga said:


> Look! A fallen tree. Perfect.
> 
> OK, lay still. Breathe deep. Try to slow my heart. I'm aching for oxygen. Breathe deep but quietly, my life depends on it. I can't hear anything except my heart. *1/* I can feel it fill with my blood and then pushed out again, over and over. *1/* My blood cycling, feeding my tired muscles. Even my brain is pulsing. I feel dizzy.


*1/* You have two sentences here and both say the same thing. Try spicing the best elements together. You don't need 'my'. Who else's blood would it be? *'I can feel it fill with blood and then push out again, cycling, feeding my tired muscles.'*


TerraLiga said:


> Where am I? I'll just pop my head up a little to look around, just for a second or two. *1/ *I'm so deep into the forest I'm not sure I'll be able to find my way back. *2/* I don't recognise anything! *3/* It's almost black now. 3/ I can't stay out here all night, the forest is dangerous at night, especially this one. I can't hear anything; maybe I've lost the hunter?


*1/* That repeat of 'I'm' and the inclusion of 'so' weaken this sentence. Try to avoid using 'so' if you can:* 'I'm deep into the forest and not sure I'll be able to find my way back'.** 2/ *You don't need the exclamation mark. *3/* 'Almost black' would be grey. You've reduced night to black when simply telling us it was nearly night would be enough. 'Dark' or 'darker' is probably what you wanted there. *'It grew darker now. I can't stay in the forest all night, it's dangerous, especially this one.' *


TerraLiga said:


> My children, oh, my children. They are safe at home curled up in bed by now, but I can't die without seeing them again, just once more, please! I love them so much. The trouble they get into, always unintentionally inviting problems into our lives. They're just too young to understand. I try my best to teach them to be good, to stay safe and constantly look out for danger. Wouldn't they fall down laughing if they could see me now! *1/* I can feel a smile on my face. *1/* I haven't felt anything other than fear for hours. *1/* It feels good. I wonder if they are missing me. I would normally be home before now. *2/* This is a story I'm going to tell them again and again. I think they'll enjoy it.


Whilst I think the transition between terrified and waxing lyrical about his children is too fast, the inclusion of 'maybe I've lost the hunter' in the previous sentence, sets this quieter moment of reflection up nicely. It just feels a tad rushed. *1/ *There's that filter again. Instead of 'I can feel', simply say 'I smiled.' You have a slight problem with the repeat of 'feel/felt' there too, but that's more or less rectified by changing the first sentence as I've suggested. *2/* You've built up the fear and yet the protag is optimistic enough to think he's going to tell his children about it. The stakes are therefore lowered, deflating the build up. This is a pivotal paragraph and needs some finessing. This is about content and so I can't really offer any adjustments. Just make it longer, slow down the sudden transition, take us slowly into a little optimism, but only 'suggest' perhaps, maybe he's going to be able to tell his children about it. It's up to you how you do that. 


TerraLiga said:


> I think the hunter has gone. Maybe given up or got lost? *1/* I'll peep over the tree. It's dark; *1/* I can't see anything moving. *1/* I can't hear anything except the quiet whispers of the forest. *1/* I'll stand slowly using the tree as cover. Nothing. *1/* I can see a deer in the distance. A deer wouldn't be here if there was a hunter nearby. *2/* There is a bird to my left, maybe an owl, but I can't see it. *3/* It's so quiet and peaceful; the soft, fresh forest breeze flutters gently in my face. *4/* I can smell bark and leaves and soil. I take in this magical, exhilarating moment. It's beautiful.


*1/ *This is all on the back foot, largely because of filter words: *'I peep over the tree. It's dark and nothing is moving. I can only hear the quiet whisper of the forest. I stand slowly, using the tree as cover. Nothing, just a deer in the far distance, picked out by the moonlight.'* I've added moonlight because if it's pitch black, he wouldn't be able to see the deer. *2/* How did he know there was an owl there if he couldn't seen it? You've got your thinking upside down here. It's the why he knew that's important, not simply the positioning of the owl.* 'An owl hoots close by but I can't see it.'* *3/* We already know it's whisper quiet, so the first part of the sentence is redundant. It wouldn't be peaceful anyway. He's still scared. You can use 'seemed' to cover that but, like I said, you don't really need this repeat of calm quiet. Normally you'd want to avoid words like 'seemed', 'almost', 'nearly', 'as if' (when not a simile), but here is when you would use one of them. I like the use of 'flutters' there but it doesn't need 'soft' or 'gently'. The word 'flutters' does the work there. We know it's in a forest so you don't need to say specifically it was a forest breeze:* 'A breeze flutters at my face.' *I've changed it to 'at my face' because 'in my face' is a little nonspecific. I'm thinking of the direction of the breeze and how it would interact with his skin. 'In' is more solid than 'at' in this context. 'At' creates a much softer idea of breeze. *4/* There's that filter word again 'I smell'. It's alright to do it now and then but it's better to find another way of describing it: *'The smell of bark, leaves and soil fill the cool air.' *You only have to describe the scene. We, the reader, are the protag, so we automatically know everything being described is something the protag can see/hear/smell/touch/taste. Just a note here while I'm at it. 'Touch/taste' are the most intimate senses. Getting them into a scene is always a good thing when possible and logical. 


TerraLiga said:


> Crack. A twig breaks behind me.
> 
> *I see* the deer look at me startled and dart away into the forest. *I hear* unseen creatures scamper away from me into the undergrowth. The bird perched high to my left launches, panicked. *I feel* paralysing fear run through my spine. I'm frozen. I don't want to turn around, but I know the hunter is behind me. *I think* of my family and how much I'll miss them.


You need to think carefully about those filter words and avoid them as much as possible. You can actually write this without using a single filter word.


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## TerraLiga

Thank you. Standing back from it I can see that your suggestions are perfectly logical. I wanted the reader to feel the transition from being petrified to slowly entertaining the idea that the character was now safe, but then pow! I didn't want the end to be graphic at all. The couple paras leading up to the end were all about personalising the character to be more than a runner, and what it would lose if caught. I was torn between keeping it brief and pacey or using these paras as a complete break of style to build some rapport.

I've been writing for a few months. This was actually my first story, written in October. I've written four other shorts since. The castle story you commented on earlier was my second.

Thanks again!


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## Kent_Jacobs

TerraLiga said:


> Thank you. Standing back from it I can see that your suggestions are perfectly logical. I wanted the reader to feel the transition from being petrified to slowly entertaining the idea that the character was now safe, but then pow! I didn't want the end to be graphic at all. The couple paras leading up to the end were all about personalising the character to be more than a runner, and what it would lose if caught. I was torn between keeping it brief and pacey or using these paras as a complete break of style to build some rapport.
> 
> I've been writing for a few months. This was actually my first story, written in October. I've written four other shorts since. The castle story you commented on earlier was my second.
> 
> Thanks again!


Yeah, I can see what you were doing. Structurally, it works and you've thought about it logically. It just needs 'more' in order to pull it off better. In that section were he begins to calm and consider the possibility he's maybe safe, consider leading in with shorter sentences (still breathy), but as he begins to reminisce, use medium (calming down) to long sentences (almost relaxed). Consider the word choice too as well as the consonants. Harsh consonants such as b/d/c/ch/k/p etc, create more punch, while softer consonants such as f/s/m/n/th/sh etc, create a smoother feeling.


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## TerraLiga

TheMightyAz said:


> Yeah, I can see what you were doing. Structurally, it works and you've thought about it logically. It just needs 'more' in order to pull it off better. In that section were he begins to calm and consider the possibility he's maybe safe, consider leading in with shorter sentences (still breathy), but as he begins to reminisce, use medium (calming down) to long sentences (almost relaxed). Consider the word choice too as well as the consonants. Harsh consonants such as b/d/c/ch/k/p etc, create more punch, while softer consonants such as f/s/m/n/th/sh etc, create a smoother feeling.


I've posted a revised version of the story to the Fiction Workshop incorporating most of your suggestions, plus making quite a drastic edit. I'd appreciate your thoughts.


			https://www.writingforums.com/threads/the-hunted-a-short-story.197270/


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## Kent_Jacobs

TerraLiga said:


> I've posted a revised version of the story to the Fiction Workshop incorporating most of your suggestions, plus making quite a drastic edit. I'd appreciate your thoughts.
> 
> 
> https://www.writingforums.com/threads/the-hunted-a-short-story.197270/


I'll take a look later.


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## Riptide

I'm wondering about the sense of direction here. The movement and setting, does it make sense?

--

She craned her neck to check above her before scaling—as a precaution. Some gangs played practical, deadly, jokes on the unsuspecting. She tried to never be unsuspecting. Clothes lines crisscrossed from corner to corner of the ledges. She scaled the forked building (mentioned previously that she's at a fork in the road), which twisted into the sky, leading her into an alcove big enough for her to drop onto.

Someone tried to bring joy into this alcove with flowers, now wilted, and their petals withered onto the dry soil. It was the thought that counted. From here, the wires of laundry stopped, and one hoverboard-wide bridge cropped up in their place. To reach it, she used a rope that dangled from the corner of two conjoining buildings that had leaned so much into each other, they had merged into one. She crossed the bridge to a porch of lawn chairs, a dry birdbath, spotty artificial grass, and loads of old magazine. A glass door spreader led into a lobby that acted as a conjunction of several bridges and apartments. An old lady in one of the chairs rose her sunglasses, grunting at Dany, who went by without a word. The lady had a pistol at her side, one physically enhanced, by the look of it. Dany didn’t need any more bullet holes in her.

At the end of the artificial grass, she took to the wall again, but luckily, this one had notches for her feet and hands, worn into the wall by people like her trying to get up to their floor by way of the sky. The buildings had stairs inside, and an elevator in most places, though no one with their means used them; they came with unnecessary costs. Most windows were always open to climb through, anyway.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Riptide said:


> *1/* She craned her neck to check above her before scaling—as a precaution. *2/* Some gangs played practical, deadly, jokes on the unsuspecting. *3/* She tried to never be unsuspecting. *4/* Clothes lines crisscrossed from corner to corner of the ledges. *5/* She scaled the forked building, which twisted into the sky, leading her into an alcove big enough for her to drop onto.


I can see why you ask because it's quite a complex set up for you to describe and her to traverse. *1/ *I wonder why you haven't gone for the obvious sentence structure here. That emdash and 'as a precaution' looks like it dangles uncomfortably at the end there like an afterthought. Why not: *'As a precaution, she craned her neck and checked above before scaling.'*? That feels far more natural. I've removed the repeat of 'her' too. You don't need it. *2/* The problem here is a 'practical joke' isn't seen as serious, hence you adding in 'deadly'. But, because you've added a word in between the well known phrase, it focuses in on 'practical' in a literal sense. This is more a personal choice but I always find 'some' a measly word, although I do use it. Here though, it could so easily be 'many' instead. I'll adjust it but it's a throwaway line, never actually explaining what those 'deadly jokes' are. If I was writing this I'd mention what some of them were.* 'Many gangs played deadly jokes on the unsuspecting.' 3/ *Here, you've split 'to be' up when it would look more natural to write: *'She tried never to be unsuspecting.'* I'm looking at that 'unsuspecting' though. Once is fine but twice makes it really stand out as a clunky word to me. I'd consider 'unaware' instead. *4/* I've got to admit, I am lost visually here and I'm not sure what I'm looking at. Where are these 'corners'? My immediate image is one of lines between buildings. The corner of one building's ledge to another building's ledge, but I'm pretty sure that's not what you mean. It's the use of 'crisscrossed' and 'corner' that throws me out. Because I can't visualise it, I can't offer an adjustment. Just like the 'deadly jokes' line, it's kinda throwaway. You mention it in passing rather than offering any real visual information. You could talk about clothes whipping in a high wind for instance, emphasising the height. They may well be empty clothes lines but why have them empty? Without going into great detail, a few well chosen things hanging from the lines could tell us a little about the type of occupants these buildings house. A bedraggled teddy bear, hung for his sins. A pair of oversized bloomers. A set of matching towels, the colours long since faded.  *5/* I'm completely lost here. I don't know what you mean by 'forked building', especially one that 'twists into the sky', making it impossible to imagine where that 'alcove' is or even what it is. You're going to have to be far more specific here because the geometry is important. She's climbing it. If you were only painting a general backdrop, you could perhaps get away with an overview, but here you can't. 


Riptide said:


> *1/* Someone tried to bring joy into this alcove with flowers, now wilted, and their petals withered onto the dry soil. It was the thought that counted. *2/* From here, the wires of laundry stopped, and one hoverboard-wide bridge cropped up in their place. *3/* To reach it, she used a rope that dangled from the corner of two conjoining buildings that had leaned so much into each other, they had merged into one. *4/* She crossed the bridge to a porch of lawn chairs, a dry birdbath, spotty artificial grass, and loads of old magazine. *5/ *A glass door spreader led into a lobby that acted as a conjunction of several bridges and apartments. *6/* An old lady in one of the chairs rose her sunglasses, grunting at Dany, who went by without a word. The lady had a pistol at her side, one physically enhanced, by the look of it. *7/* Dany didn’t need any more bullet holes in her.


*1/* The building complex is joyless, making my suggestion of things hanging on the line more relevant. In that regard, the bedraggled teddy bear (no money for new toys) and the faded matching towels (a relationship gone wrong) seem more telling. This sentence could do with some finessing. It's a little clunky. I wouldn't focus on why the plants had been planted. The protag wouldn't necessarily know the planter wanted to bring joy. I'd let the image alone tell the story: *'Someone had planted flowers in the alcove, withered now in the dry soil.'* *2/* 'wires of laundry'? Can laundry itself be 'wires'? And why wires now, which are usually made of some kind of metal? You used 'lines' before, which I took to be rope/string of some kind. I'm assuming this is a sci-fi setting because of the use of 'hoverboard'. It just feels misplaced there, as if you're trying to sci-fi it up needlessly. My first thought, although only briefly, was how wide is a made up contraption? Alternatively, you could be talking about those things people stand on with wheels, popular on Amazon. The hover board used in Back to The Future is much narrower than those things called hoverboards sold on Amazon ... so I'm slightly at odds with that measure of width. Pick something simpler! lol. In all honesty, I'm struggling to visualise what's going on. You've called it a bridge so I'd have to assume it's going from one building to the next? Again, I can't offer an adjustment because I can't see it. *3/* You've said 'from here' meaning where she is, but then mentioned in order to reach it, she had to use a rope. You've used 'conjoining' and mentioned they're leaning together so much they've merged. Those two things are saying the same thing. would buildings merge into one literally or would they appear to merge into one? *'to reach it, she climbed a rope dangling from where the two buildings had teetered and touched, almost merging as one.'* I'd have to give that more thought but I think that's clearer. *4/* This is a tad awkward and could do with better chosen words: *'She made her way across the narrow bridge and came upon a porch with three folded lawn chairs, spotty artificial grass and stacks of old magazines.'* Four things seem a lot so I've removed 'birdbath.' I've mentioned three lawn chairs because of the old saying 'two is company, three is a crowd', giving it a slightly uncomfortable feeling (subliminally hopefully) and I've folded them to show lack of use. I've replaced 'loads', which is doesn't give you a direct visual, and stacked the magazines instead. *5/* I'm not familiar with the term 'glass door spreader' so can't comment on that. I looked it up and could only find some kind of tool. I'm also confused by the description again. 'acted as a conjunction of several bridges and apartments.' Why not mention how many bridges? And do you mean 'junction'? I know conjunction means to converge or a combination but you're talking about bridges AND apartments. Where is the placement of those apartments relevant to the bridges? Are they at the ends of those bridges or have you got a mash up of apartments converging and bridges converging, which is a difficult image to imagine? So ... this is a lobby leading to apartments and bridges? Are there only four directions in all or are there more? Is it like a crossroads or the spokes of a wagon wheel? In which case, where are these apartments placed in relation to those bridges? Perhaps one way around all this confusion is to only mention specifically what journey she takes rather than trying to explain every detail. *6/* You've mentioned an old lady sitting in 'one of the chair', which immediately threw me because I then thought back to the chairs on the porch. But that can't be right because she's left there and gone through glass doors into a lobby. When talking about movement, phrases like 'went by' are nonspecific when a simple specific word like 'walked' would be far better. *'An old lady, reclined in a chair, raised her sunglasses and grunted at Dany, who walked by without a word.' *I've also changed 'sat' to 'reclined' because it's a more nonchalant image, fitting the grunt and the open way she's displaying her gun. *7/* 'bullet holes in her' trivialises the idea of being shot, almost as if they're a mere inconvenience. Why would anyone 'need' bullet holes? *'Danny didn't want any more bullet wounds'*. 


Riptide said:


> At the end of the artificial grass, she took to the wall again, but luckily, this one had notches for her feet and hands, worn into the wall by people like her trying to get up to their floor by way of the sky. The buildings had stairs inside, and an elevator in most places, though no one with their means used them; they came with unnecessary costs. Most windows were always open to climb through, anyway.


She was in a lobby and now she's at the end of some artificial glass. Where is that artificial glass? Then she took to the wall again ... which makes me wonder where these bridges and apartments are in relation to the lobby. The lobby will have four walls, one of which is a wall she climbs, meaning that leaves only three for either bridges or joining apartments. But we've already stepped off a porch, meaning that only leaves two walls (with doors I'd assume) leading to either a bridge or an apartment. So, one wall leads to a porch, the other leads to a wall to climb and the other two lead to an apartment or a bridge. Not only that but there's glass running the length of the lobby, leaving really on ONE possible undisclosed exit. Where are these several bridges and apartments fitting in here? 

You asked about the sense of direction and movement so clearly the things I've pointed out bothered you too.  Either simplify the building or only mention her journey through the territory, trying to avoid describing it perfectly.


----------



## Theglasshouse

This a letter from a writing exercise I did here earlier. A person who I subscribed to on YouTube recommended it. He made some comments. I admit I have that book. I wish it was on kindle. I'll need to review it thoroughly.



> Hi, Claudio,
> 
> Thanks for the note (and apologies for the delayed response: life has been especially busy lately).
> 
> Have you picked up a copy of Joseph Williams' _Style: Lessons in Clarity and Grace_? It's a textbook that talks about things like cohesion and coherence among other things, and I think it could be a great resource for someone in your position. It's been a great help to me, and I know many other writers and teachers who have learned a lot from it.
> 
> As for the sample that you sent me, it's in pretty good shape--nice work. I will share a couple of thoughts, though, since you asked for them:
> 
> 
> *The dark bottles* full of precious Amaretto glistened of silver liquor, and these cracked and exploded when he had dropped them accidentally. *The sound* of the Amontillado bottle cracked. *The boy* had created a pool of radiant puddles that glittered and distorted images as if mirrors of a fun house.*The alcohol* perfumed the room and tiny remnants of glass from the broken bottle remained invisible and sharp on the carpet. To him *the broken shards* remained cold puzzle pieces part of an icy wasteland.
> 
> 
> In what you have written here, the subject of each sentence is different--and that can create problems for cohesion and coherence. When we talk about cohesion, the goal is to have each sentence begin with something that appears in the previous sentence (so that readers can clearly see the connection).
> 
> So, for example, since the second sentence here mostly repeats information already in the first, you could try something like: "The dark bottles full of precious Amaretto *glistened of silver liquor*, and these cracked and exploded when he had dropped them accidentally. *The liquor*created a pool of radiant puddles that glittered and distorted images..."
> 
> See how the subject of the second sentence now makes direct reference to something that appears in the previous sentence? The boy doesn't really appear in the first sentence (except a brief mention of "he"), so choosing a different subject (the liquor) can create a stronger connection between the two sentences.
> 
> As for coherence, the idea is to ensure that all the sentences in a paragraph are more or less about the same thing. As it stands, readers have to jump from bottles to sound to the boy to alcohol and to broken shards. Even though the content of the sentences is all related, the subjects of those sentences are very different, something that could make it harder for readers to follow along. Changing all the subjects to the bottles or the liquor could create a more reliable pattern in the paragraph and make it clearer what the focus of the paragraph is (if it is, in fact, the Amaretto).
> 
> Basically, think about what you want the focus of your paragraph to be--and then make sure that it's also the focus of each sentence (by making sure that all the subjects are closely related). That will help with cohesion and coherence, but it will also help with creating stronger topic sentences because you will be making the topic of your paragraph clearer throughout.
> 
> Hope that helps. Once again, I apologize for the slow response. I hope you're doing well and continuing to write!
> Take care,
> Andrew


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## Kent_Jacobs

Yes, he/she is touching upon that flow I'm always talking about and have noted often breaks down in your work. Each of your sentences is a separate thought when it should flow from the last in some way. It's what I believe is at the bottom of you repeating the same thing twice.

This is what you tend to do:
'Tom sat by the ocean. Tom looked out across the ocean. The ocean made him think of years gone by.'
This is what you should do:
'Tom sat by the ocean and gazed out across its great expanse, thinking of years gone by.'


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## Theglasshouse

Thanks for your patient replies and efforts. I managed to get a copy of the book. Even if I use pronouns in place of the subject would you consider it a redundancy? When I take a course on prose I should hopefully be able to overcome some of these obstacles or limitations. However, I am willing to take a class on this subject. I just don't have ideas on where to begin my search. As you know this is just a friendly reply he gave. Currently, he thinks paragraphs that are expository should create a problem that needs a solution. For example the consequences of the effects of the topic sentence. For example for whom is binge drinking a problem? It's a book for writing essays I realize but it might help. Thanks anyways as always. (it's a useful way to create some of that flow by focusing on a topic sentence that talks about problems but I don't know) I'll be reading the book again. I bought it for kindle.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Theglasshouse said:


> Thanks for your patient replies and efforts. I managed to get a copy of the book. Even if I use pronouns in place of the subject would you consider it a redundancy? When I take a course on prose I should hopefully be able to overcome some of these obstacles or limitations. However, I am willing to take a class on this subject. I just don't have ideas on where to begin my search. As you know this is just a friendly reply he gave. Currently, he thinks paragraphs that are expository should create a problem that needs a solution. For example the consequences of the effects of the topic sentence. For example for whom is binge drinking a problem? It's a book for writing essays I realize but it might help. Thanks anyways as always. (it's a useful way to create some of that flow by focusing on a topic sentence that talks about problems but I don't know) I'll be reading the book again. I bought it for kindle.


Honestly, I wouldn't worry one jot about any deep or meaningful messaging in your prose. Nail the competency first and the rest will follow as a result. You have some unique ideas and they deserve to be presented well. As far as 'redundancies' are concerned, just take a look at a sentence and see if you can remove any repeats by arranging it differently. That goes for any word including 'she' or 'he' or 'name'.

It's just that habit you've got of viewing each sentence as if they're mini paragraphs. A paragraph represents one aspect of a scene in the same way a scene represents one aspect of a chapter ... and as far as that goes, a chapter represents one aspect of the whole story. When you approach writing a paragraph, establish what it is that paragraph is meant to accomplish and support what you want to accomplish with each sentence.

Here's an example from my own work that I'm not happy with but I'm leaving for the moment. See how each sentence naturally leads to the next sentence but sentence* (a) *looks slightly out of place? It jars. That's because I wanted to inject that thought into the paragraph but haven't smoothed in and smoothed out. It has meaning (referring to Sorrow) but the reader doesn't know that at this point. And even if they did, technically it creates a bump in the paragraph and annoys the hell out of me. Made worse by the fact I like the damned thing, hence why it's still sat their stubbornly. It does actually fit in with the idea and flow of the inner 'story' of the paragraph, but regardless, there's something about it that pulls me up:

He grieved for those misplaced memories, dreaded what he may stumble upon if he searched. *->* Dig he did regardless, through the graveyard of his thoughts, unearthing nothing more than self-loathing.  *->* Only recent memories lingered and whilst some had already begun to fade, others sharpened and cut deep. *->* He’d done things ... many things.  *->* Terrible things. *(a)* Atonement is what he craved most, but the devil beside him wore a lipless grin. In these wistful moments, he felt wretched, less a saviour and more a coward. However, the need that drove him triumphed every time. A tracker, a hunter, a killer is all he was and would ever be.​


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## Theglasshouse

Here's my worst example of redundancy and an example of a paragraph with disorganized thoughts and sentences. (the word sun and what it does is redundant):

*The sun glowed above the sky like a citrine jewel of a king’s crown. It appeared as if a circle of fire that burned. The star shone above the buildings and wards of the Hospital World. People walked on the premises of hospitals as the sun warmed their feet as if cooking them. It shimmered like a Japanese lantern that glowed on paramedics that carried people onto stretchers and into ambulances, as they then drove away on the street. The sunlight lit everything gold like a dragon in the sky spitting golden flames illuminating the hospitals. It was as if a god that made the world visible from the different spectrums of light that shone on the world that was run by doctors. The doctors were determined thinking in the bright daylight to cure people. The day’s temperatures were so hot that it scared people and motivated them to protest at Hospital Park.*

I do admit I get indulgent with writing my paragraphs, and I am guilty of what some writers say of not killing my darlings.


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## TL Murphy

Withdrawn.


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## Kent_Jacobs

TL Murphy said:


> Just a dumb question: What does craft actually mean? Is it a focus on text as opposed to mood/tone/genre? Or is it more specifically about clarity and precision?
> 
> I focus these days mostly  on poetry where I think technique, form, craft and content may be kind of inseparable, so please forgive me if I'm a bit dense. But I"ve written a lot of fiction too and I'm trying to understand how this thread might help my work as opposed to general writing discussion.
> 
> How is critique/discussion on craft different than literary critique in general?


Personally, I see critiques in general as broad statements that take into consideration the body of the whole piece posted, 'occasionally' pointing out an error or badly written sentence here and there. Here, I wanted to limit the content posted so myself and others could dig right down into the construction; the ins and outs of 'syntax' and 'style/voice' as well as trying to iron out those beginner problems we all suffer from.

The problem I identified whilst on courses and on forums is most of the time advice centred around the assumption people on those courses fully understood the basics, but I realised quickly that wasn't the case, which is why most people left those courses and most people leave forums. People get frustrated because they're not at a high enough level to even begin to understand the broader critiques, let alone understand syntax and how it can effect mood/tone/pacing/musicality/etc. I know because I was one of them, but rather than quit like 70% of the people on classes or forum users, I stuck around trying to identify what tools I was missing, how to use them and why they worked.

If you listen to published authors, they'll often say something like 'just write, keep writing and read all the time.' That's great advice for lots of people but not for people like me. It's too vague. It's like telling someone to play the piano, keep playing the piano and listen to piano music. It works for some because they have a natural ear but for others it doesn't. There's a bridge missing between those with a natural bent for writing and those with a desire to write but no natural bent for writing. They have a story to tell but have never had the tools explained to them. All they ever hear is 'just write, keep writing and read all the time.' All I ever used to think while on writing courses is 'stop talking about the muse, stop talking about art and show me how to write.'


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## Kent_Jacobs

I've changed the scar running from temple to cheek to tears. I feel as if it adds an emotional and intriguing element. The mountain metaphor may change. Either I'll rewrite it or think of something else to express Yarrod's size and presence. Let me know what you think of both the change and the metaphor. It also makes the 'regardless' work better, especially now it's a new paragraph:

The stranger covered his tankard with a palm and shook his head slowly, then in a sudden movement, looked up. Long, black hair slipped aside, revealing a stony expression, skin the colour of candle wax, eyes glinting with malice. 

The bartender’s smile wilted. It hadn’t simply been the look in his steel-blue eyes that shook him. The tears running down the stranger's cheeks had surely taken him aback too. A mountain feared nothing, and yet, here it was, hidden and crumbling.

Regardless, this was the kind of man the stranger disliked most. Beneath polite society, where bad blood ran, men and monsters fought for control over the very bedrock a fool like this built his ignorance upon. It had to be wilful as far as he was concerned. The whole world stank of it. You couldn’t miss it unless deliberate.​


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## Theglasshouse

> The stranger covered his tankard with a palm and shook his head slowly, then in a sudden movement, looked up. Long, black hair slipped aside, revealing a stony expression, skin the colour of candle wax, eyes glinting with malice.


I liked the expression of skin the colour of candle wax. It's a nice metaphor of his teary eyes releasing tears or his face showing a negative emotional state.



> The bartender’s smile wilted. It hadn’t simply been the look in his steel-blue eyes that shook him. The tears running down the stranger's cheeks had surely taken him aback too. A mountain feared nothing, and yet, here it was, hidden and crumbling.


I wish it were clearer what the mountain referred to. Crumbling suggests its the bartender. I feel mountains are made of stone. If that is the case maybe the next paragraph could give the idea of how the bartender is like a mountain. I like the word crumbling to describe him. I don't know if hidden is the best choice. I admit I need to look up wilted, but have to edit this post sometime later. If the mountain is civilization that is hidden and crumbling in this world then I agree and it's not the bartender necessarily but he is by association.
wilted:
to lose strength, vigor, assurance, etc.

So yes I agree with the use of wilted.



> Regardless, this was the kind of man the stranger disliked most. Beneath polite society, where bad blood ran, men and monsters fought for control over the very bedrock a fool like this built his ignorance upon. It had to be wilful as far as he was concerned. The whole world stank of it. You couldn’t miss it unless deliberate.


I like it. I am not sure you had something else where regarding the stone being a symbol or metaphor of ignorance. I think it works. I slightly prefer your previous one because it was more stylistically pleasing. A bedrock made of ignorance he build his life upon. Something like that you wrote I think.

This is just an opinion, and you already know I immensely enjoy reading your prose.


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## alpacinoutd

I'm trying to describe a view that's similar to what can be seen in this photo:









Does this work?

Through the window, he could see the river framed by towering skyscrapers. To its right, a river of cars flowed up and down a wide street. At nights, the lights from the boats gliding down the river bobbed on the green-gray water which was fringed by the lights from the towers. When he stayed at the office at nights, he would sometimes stop working and take in the view. This city could not be more different from his hometown, a dusty little county in the middle of nowhere.


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## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> I'm trying to describe a view that's similar to what can be seen in this photo:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does this work?
> 
> Through the window, he could see the river framed by towering skyscrapers. *1/* To its right, a river of cars flowed up and down a wide street. *2/* At nights, the lights *from* the boats gliding down the river bobbed on the green-gray water which was fringed by the lights from the towers. *3/* When he stayed at the office at nights, he would sometimes stop working and take in the view. This city could not be more different from his hometown, a dusty little county in the middle of nowhere.


*1/* I'd question 'to its right' there. You're using the window as a reference point when simply saying 'On the right' would put the reader into the character's head, as would 'to his right' but I don't think you need to do that. Is it a 'wide street'? Or is it a 'dual carriageway'? The inclusion of 'wide' feels like an unnecessarily injected adjective, although you can have 'wide streets'. Here though, you do have a better alternative. *2/* This sentence is a little cluttered. Although you've mentioned boats, the emphasis is on 'lights' relegating the boats when the boats should be the central focus. You don't need to pluralise 'nights' there. This is actually a tough one because I don't like to tamper too much with the syntax if possible. One thing I've noticed about your work is I don't often struggle to adjust the sentences because, largely speaking, what needs to be there is nearly always there. It's usually a matter of simply tinkering to sharpen or clarify: *'At night, illuminated boats glided down the river and bobbed in green-grey waters, fringed by the lights from the towers.'* *3/* This is just a tad plain. I think if it's tightened and adjusted it would work better: *'Often, when working at the office at night, he would take the time to soak in the view.'* You don't need to tell the reader he stopped working to do it. The fact he's doing it shows the reader he's stopped working. I think 'soak' shows more appreciation than 'take'. 

Overall though, once again I see a big improvement. You're sticking with it and I admire that.


----------



## PiP

alpacinoutd said:


> Does this work?
> 
> To its right, a river of cars flowed up and down a wide street.


Curious:  Why a river of cars and not a stream of traffic? Are there just cars? TBH, I can't picture a river of cars.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

PiP said:


> Curious:  Why a river of cars and not a stream of traffic? Are they just cars? TBH, I can't picture a river of cars.


Funnily enough, I didn't spot that. I think it's fine to have a 'river of cars' though. I would change it in this instance but only because it's also got a river included in the paragraph.


----------



## SilverBardSings

I have an opening snippet I can post later for thoughts... I've been workshopping it recently on Absolute Write, but I'd be interested in getting more eyes on it.  Would have to share it later when I'm at my computer again though.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

SilverBardSings said:


> I have an opening snippet I can post later for thoughts... I've been workshopping it recently on Absolute Write, but I'd be interested in getting more eyes on it.  Would have to share it later when I'm at my computer again though.


No more than three paragraphs, please  or a few sentences if you like. I like to delve into it and longer pieces make it hard on my brain.


----------



## SilverBardSings

TheMightyAz said:


> No more than three paragraphs, please  or a few sentences if you like. I like to delve into it and longer pieces make it hard on my brain.


No worries! It's only 200 words long.  A few words less, I think, actually.  It's the opening for a WIP I'm working on called "The Nightmare Thief" but the challenge I was participating in on the other forum was to post only the first 200 words of your WIP and see if you could "hook" or at least interest the reader.

I got some good feedback, but I'd love to get other eyes on it, as mentioned.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

SilverBardSings said:


> No worries! It's only 200 words long.  A few words less, I think, actually.  It's the opening for a WIP I'm working on called "The Nightmare Thief" but the challenge I was participating in on the other forum was to post only the first 200 words of your WIP and see if you could "hook" or at least interest the reader.
> 
> I got some good feedback, but I'd love to get other eyes on it, as mentioned.


I just want to point out that I use red because I only have a small laptop screen and it's the only colour that looks distinct to me. It's not meant to be 'teachery'! I have mentioned it several times in this thread but thought I'd take the opportunity to mention it again. I also say it straight, but please don't take 'straight' as disrespectful. I don't like being patronised and always assume others don't either.


----------



## SilverBardSings

TheMightyAz said:


> I just want to point out that I use red because I only have a small laptop screen and it's the only colour that looks distinct to me. It's not meant to be 'teachery'! I have mentioned it several times in this thread but thought I'd take the opportunity to mention it again. I also say it straight, but please don't take 'straight' as disrespectful. I don't like being patronised and always assume others don't either.


That is perfectly fine!  Thanks for letting me know!

I'll post the excerpt later today.


----------



## SilverBardSings

Ok.  I first want to point out that I did a bit more tweaking, and this small excerpt is now closer to 300 words instead of just 200.  I am definitely curious to see what you think though.  The challenge for me has been keeping this opening intriguing yet concise... I'm usually a rather wordy person when it comes to writing, and sometimes cutting it back to the essentials is difficult for me.

Some quick things to note.  Genre is gearpunk Victorian fantasy.  Audience is YA.  Character is a 16/17 year old Dream Thief... Female, but often masquerades as a younger male.  These things would eventually be alluded to in the book's blurb, so I assume it's good context to give you here. 

Thank you in advance!!

*****

Freezing grey fog hid the stars and choked the pallid lamps lining the broken cobbleways. Old newspapers, busted wagon wheels, and clumps of moldering veg piled up in dark corners, while puddles of questionable content frosted over every pothole and divot.  The alley I’d chosen stank of sewage, with just a hint of wet dog clinging to the bitter chill.

It was that last scent I couldn’t quite dismiss.

I shifted against the alley wall, stomping my feet to work life back into my numbing toes.  Sniffed again, just to be sure.

Yep.  Wet dog. No mistaking it.  Odd that one would come around here, though, especially in this weather.  Dogs steered clear of these parts of Lower Savastone, and those that wandered in didn’t last long.  If a dog was loose, someone would eat well tonight.

Poor beast.

My thin coat felt like paper against my skin - hardly enough to block this evil chill.  I pulled it tighter and tucked my stiffening fingers under my arms, glancing up and down the walk for any sign of this new patron I was supposed to meet.

Nothing.

To the untrained eye the street looked deserted, locked up against the cold. I knew better of course, but this patron was from Upper Savastone; he’d have no reason to suspect any eyes on him but mine.

Damned Upper.  He _would_ leave me freezing to death, waiting.  Suppose it was to be expected from someone living in the Echelon.  I shouldn't be surprised.

But my skint had insisted the man would be here.  Said he’d been quite resolved in the matter.  And if that were the case, I couldn’t afford to leave just yet.  This job could change everything – for me, and my crew.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

SilverBardSings said:


> *1/* Freezing grey fog hid the stars and choked the pallid lamps lining the broken cobbleways. *2/ *Old newspapers, busted wagon wheels, and clumps of moldering veg piled up in dark corners, while puddles of questionable content frosted over every pothole and divot. *3/* The alley I’d chosen stank of sewage, with just a hint of wet dog clinging to the bitter chill.


*1/* The first thing I'd note is what you said about you can sometimes be 'wordy'. One of the main problems with stacking adjectives up in one sentence is the rhythm they create. The more that stack, the more that rhythm becomes noticeable. That's not to say you should NEVER do it. It's just to say you need to think carefully about that rhythm and words that could be removed (the hardest part). What is the colour of 'fog'? If I say 'fog', do you automatically see it? The answer is of course, yes. If what you add doesn't modify the noun in an unexpected way, then it's not needed. I often call that the 'assumed state'. You've got the fog hiding the stars and choking the lamps. That can be cut down a little, applying 'choked' to both the stars and the lamps. If the lamps are choked by fog, then their 'assumed state' would be 'pallid'. Taking all that into consideration: *'Freezing fog choked the stars and the lamps that lined the broken cobbleways.'* I've had to include 'and *the* lamps *that*' because if I didn't, 'lined the broken cobbleways' would also be acting upon 'stars'. It creates a distinct separation between the two images. *2/* similar rhythm here. This is a little harder though because some of that information is painting a distinct picture. I'd consider finding a single word that expressed the same if possible. We know the stars are out and the lights are on so we know it's night, which gives you the opportunity to remove 'dark'. What is 'questionable content'? That's a tad overwritten. If you name that 'questionable content' you can get rid of another doubling up. Is it even a necessary detail? *'Old newspapers, broken wagon wheels and clumps of mouldering veg piled up in corners, while puddles frosted over in every pothole.'* I've removed divot because it tends to refer to the grass/mud dug up by a golf stroke, and for the sake of the image, pothole is more than enough. One thing I've noticed about adjectives in general is they're often forced in to add more detail, which overloads the sentences. I often ask myself whether I'm missing an opportunity by throwing away potential in adjective form. Think about those 'rotten vegetables' (which would be my choice of words there). All senses are important and it seems to me, if you'd dedicated a separate sentence to that, smell could have been brought into the image, and perhaps added as a potential replacement for 'sewage' in the following sentence. *3/* A little logistic problem here. 'Stank' is a powerful smell and yet you could just smell a 'hint' of wet dog. Do you see what I mean? I find them an unlikely duo to bring together, even with a mellowing of the language. The very word 'sewage' throws up one of the most powerful and obnoxious smells out there. I'd pick one or the other myself, unless the journey takes the protag past two separate locations. Obviously that would mean two separate sentences. Which smell matters most to the protag? Is it the disgust of sewage or perhaps a fond memory of a lost dog, if you get my drift. Regardless, I'll try to bring them together: *'The alley I'd chosen had the faint whiff of sewage with the distinct smell of wet dog, clinging to the chill.' *You don't need 'bitter' there. 


SilverBardSings said:


> It was that last scent I couldn’t quite dismiss.
> 
> I shifted against the alley wall, stomping my feet to work life back into my numbing toes.  Sniffed again, just to be sure.


I do this as I go along and now I see it's the 'dog smell' that's most important to the protag. I'd personally lose 'sewage' and make 'rotten vegetables' the competing smell. Think of the contrast there, considering this is YA. Who doesn't have a fondness for dogs and a disliking of vegetables? Of course you wouldn't draw attention to the fact the protag didn't like vegetables. That would be cliqued. If you just include it as the other smell, it's there only as a subtext and as such would remind the reader of their own feelings towards vegetables, good or bad. It doesn't intrude on the image evoked but instead adds a subtle layer. She stomps her feet to work life back into them so of course they're numb. You can lose 'numbing'. 


SilverBardSings said:


> Yep.  Wet dog. No mistaking it.  Odd that one would come around here, though, especially in this weather.  Dogs steered clear of these parts of Lower Savastone, and those that wandered in didn’t last long.  If a dog was loose, someone would eat well tonight.


This is nice and tight. I particularly like the one word, two word, three word sentences leading into a longer sentence. The fragments feel chatty too, which is clearly what you're going for.



SilverBardSings said:


> Poor beast.
> 
> *1/ *My thin coat felt like paper against my skin - hardly enough to block this evil chill. *2/*  I pulled it tighter and tucked my stiffening fingers under my arms, glancing up and down the walk for any sign of this new patron I was supposed to meet.


*1/* You've got two things describing the same thing: 'thin coat' and 'felt like paper'. You've used 'chill' before and 'evil chill' is overdoing it. Consider: *'My coat felt like paper against my skin--hardly enough to hold back the cold.' 2/ *Another logistic problem here. If she's pulled the coat tighter then how can she also tuck her fingers under her arms? It would surely open up again once she's removed her hands. You could have her turn her collar up, which would then allow her to let go logically. Here is also a perfect example of the whole 'show don't tell' mantra (when possible!). We know it's cold. We know she's cold. And we know her coat is thin. In such a situation, putting your fingers under your arms 'shows' she's seeking warmth. You don't need 'stiffening' there. Possibly: *'I flipped up my collar and tucked my fingers under my arms, glancing up and down the walkway for any sign of the new patron I was suppose to meet.'* I noticed you used 'this chill' and 'this patron'. To me, it just feels a tad awkward written that way. 


SilverBardSings said:


> Nothing.
> 
> *1/ *To the untrained eye the street looked deserted, locked up against the frigid cold. I knew better of course, but this patron was from Upper Savastone; he’d have no reason to suspect any eyes on him but mine.


*1/* There's that doubling up you need to keep an eye on. In this case it's tautology and the easiest one to lose. You've basically written '... against the cold cold.' 


SilverBardSings said:


> Damned Upper.  He _would_ leave me freezing to death, waiting.  Suppose it was to be expected from someone living in the Echelon.  I shouldn't be surprised.
> 
> But my skint had insisted the man would be here.  Said he’d been quite resolved in the matter.  And if that were the case, I couldn’t afford to leave just yet.  This job could change everything – for me, and my crew.


I hope that helps! Just one other thing I noticed and this may well be only because it's a small section. I mentioned the fragments and how it worked well with that chatty style you're going for, but just be careful not to lean into it too heavily all the time. I felt the pace quickening towards the end when I'd like to have just spent that little longer freezing my ass off with the protag.


----------



## SilverBardSings

TheMightyAz said:


> *1/* The first thing I'd note is what you said about you can sometimes be 'wordy'. One of the main problems with stacking adjectives up in one sentence is the rhythm they create. The more that stack, the more that rhythm becomes noticeable. That's not to say you should NEVER do it. It's just to say you need to think carefully about that rhythm and words that could be removed (the hardest part). What is the colour of 'fog'? If I say 'fog', do you automatically see it? The answer is of course, yes. If what you add doesn't modify the noun in an unexpected way, then it's not needed. I often call that the 'assumed state'. You've got the fog hiding the stars and choking the lamps. That can be cut down a little, applying 'choked' to both the stars and the lamps. If the lamps are choked by fog, then their 'assumed state' would be 'pallid'. Taking all that into consideration: *'Freezing fog choked the stars and the lamps that lined the broken cobbleways.'* I've had to include 'and *the* lamps *that*' because if I didn't, 'lined the broken cobbleways' would also be acting upon 'stars'. It creates a distinct separation between the two images. *2/* similar rhythm here. This is a little harder though because some of that information is painting a distinct picture. I'd consider finding a single word that expressed the same if possible. We know the stars are out and the lights are on so we know it's night, which gives you the opportunity to remove 'dark'. What is 'questionable content'? That's a tad overwritten. If you name that 'questionable content' you can get rid of another doubling up. Is it even a necessary detail? *'Old newspapers, broken wagon wheels and clumps of mouldering veg piled up in corners, while puddles frosted over in every pothole.'* I've removed divot because it tends to refer to the grass/mud dug up by a golf stroke, and for the sake of the image, pothole is more than enough. One thing I've noticed about adjectives in general is they're often forced in to add more detail, which overloads the sentences. I often ask myself whether I'm missing an opportunity by throwing away potential in adjective form. Think about those 'rotten vegetables' (which would be my choice of words there). All senses are important and it seems to me, if you'd dedicated a separate sentence to that, smell could have been brought into the image, and perhaps added as a potential replacement for 'sewage' in the following sentence. *3/* A little logistic problem here. 'Stank' is a powerful smell and yet you could just smell a 'hint' of wet dog. Do you see what I mean? I find them an unlikely duo to bring together, even with a mellowing of the language. The very word 'sewage' throws up one of the most powerful and obnoxious smells out there. I'd pick one or the other myself, unless the journey takes the protag past two separate locations. Obviously that would mean two separate sentences. Which smell matters most to the protag? Is it the disgust of sewage or perhaps a fond memory of a lost dog, if you get my drift. Regardless, I'll try to bring them together: *'The alley I'd chosen had the faint whiff of sewage with the distinct smell of wet dog, clinging to the chill.' *You don't need 'bitter' there.
> 
> I do this as I go along and now I see it's the 'dog smell' that's most important to the protag. I'd personally lose 'sewage' and make 'rotten vegetables' the competing smell. Think of the contrast there, considering this is YA. Who doesn't have a fondness for dogs and a disliking of vegetables? Of course you wouldn't draw attention to the fact the protag didn't like vegetables. That would be cliqued. If you just include it as the other smell, it's there only as a subtext and as such would remind the reader of their own feelings towards vegetables, good or bad. It doesn't intrude on the image evoked but instead adds a subtle layer. She stomps her feet to work life back into them so of course they're numb. You can lose 'numbing'.
> 
> This is nice and tight. I particularly like the one word, two word, three word sentences leading into a longer sentence. The fragments feel chatty too, which is clearly what you're going for.
> 
> 
> *1/* You've got two things describing the same thing: 'thin coat' and 'felt like paper'. You've used 'chill' before and 'evil chill' is overdoing it. Consider: *'My coat felt like paper against my skin--hardly enough to hold back the cold.' 2/ *Another logistic problem here. If she's pulled the coat tighter then how can she also tuck her fingers under her arms? It would surely open up again once she's removed her hands. You could have her turn her collar up, which would then allow her to let go logically. Here is also a perfect example of the whole 'show don't tell' mantra (when possible!). We know it's cold. We know she's cold. And we know her coat is thin. In such a situation, putting your fingers under your arms 'shows' she's seeking warmth. You don't need 'stiffening' there. Possibly: *'I flipped up my collar and tucked my fingers under my arms, glancing up and down the walkway for any sign of the new patron I was suppose to meet.'* I noticed you used 'this chill' and 'this patron'. To me, it just feels a tad awkward written that way.
> 
> *1/* There's that doubling up you need to keep an eye on. In this case it's tautology and the easiest one to lose. You've basically written '... against the cold cold.'
> 
> I hope that helps! Just one other thing I noticed and this may well be only because it's a small section. I mentioned the fragments and how it worked well with that chatty style you're going for, but just be careful not to lean into it too heavily all the time. I felt the pace quickening towards the end when I'd like to have just spent that little longer freezing my ass off with the protag.


Thank you!  This actually gives me a lot to think about.  I appreciate all the time you took to give me such an in-depth critique.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

SilverBardSings said:


> Thank you!  This actually gives me a lot to think about.  I appreciate all the time you took to give me such an in-depth critique.


My pleasure. I think you can see why I set a paragraph limit now ... 

edit: I just wanted to add something about my critique above. I was focused mainly on cutting some of those adjectives down. Because I was looking for places to cut down, there are some things that you could get away with given there was less adjectives elsewhere. For instance, you could actually get away with 'pallid lamps' regardless of my logic. I was presenting opportunities to tighten, not necessarily suggesting they're completely wrong.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

I removed this video. Having watched half of it, and couldn't bare to watch any more, I've decided to save the rest of you from the same pain. The headings of each category were helpful, but that was about it. The discussion that ensued because of those heading was too much to take. Hardly anything said was helpful.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

@PrairieHostage

I said in the other thread that I like this line from your story. I also said I would consider why stacking adjectives works here whilst most of the time stacking adjectives doesn't work. I think I've got it.

_Our little pale family lived in a large house with low windows that never felt safe, especially on nights when dad was away on month long trips._

There are two things going on here. The words 'little', 'large' and 'low' are thematic (measures) and come across as a deliberate repetition of adjectives. Instead of it feeling stacked, it feels like a grammatical choice, telling us how the protag feels about the house. I'm pretty sure there's a literary term for this. 'The big man, lived in a large house with small people'. These adjectives deliberately draw attention to themselves. They're not simply describing, they're emphasising. 'Pale' and 'never felt safe', push this even further, showing an unhealthy level of fear. The house is almost the central character here, the villain of the piece. Without the thematic stacking, that could not be achieved so succinctly.


----------



## tonsonenotany

alpacinoutd said:


> I'm trying to describe a view that's similar to what can be seen in this photo:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does this work?
> 
> Through the window, he could see the river framed by towering skyscrapers. To its right, a river of cars flowed up and down a wide street. At nights, the lights from the boats gliding down the river bobbed on the green-gray water which was fringed by the lights from the towers. When he stayed at the office at nights, he would sometimes stop working and take in the view. This city could not be more different from his hometown, a dusty little county in the middle of nowhere.


That’s decent. I don’t think the skyscrapers need to be towering, that’s implied.

“which was fringed by the lights from the towers” is unclear and makes the sentence a little too long. If you want to call attention to the tower lights, start a new sentence.

Otherwise looking good!


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

tonsonenotany said:


> That’s decent. I don’t think the skyscrapers need to be towering, that’s implied.
> 
> “which was fringed by the lights from the towers” is unclear and makes the sentence a little too long. If you want to call attention to the tower lights, start a new sentence.
> 
> Otherwise looking good!


I can't cover everything but I've got to be honest, that 'towering skyscraper' slipped me by!


----------



## alpacinoutd

I'd appreciate it if you would take a look these two paragraphs. It was difficult for me to write.

She wound a scarf around her neck and put on her boots. A blast of cold air hit her as she stepped out of the house. The war-scarred streets were bathed in the dim reddish glow of sunset as she walked to the supermarket. The main road to it was littered with craters and debris. She’d almost grown used to seeing half-rubble buildings with blackened walls and car wreckage scattered around the streets. The putrid smell of ammunition powder wafting through the air no longer made her nauseous. That she’d become nonchalant about war surprised her more than the explosions. To reach the supermarket, she’d go through a bridge over a stream. She sighed wearily as she saw the bridge had crumbled, crooked rebar sticking out of its moss-coated columns. The bridge was intact the last time she’d gone to the supermarket. She trudged down towards the stream, hoping to find a shallow pass. The water was tinted red perhaps by the last rays of the sun, or perhaps by the blood of the slaughtered. Her boots were caked with mud as she labored through the stream. She arrived at the supermarket after several more minutes of walking. All the shelves were coated with a thin layer of ash. She grabbed a few canned beans, loafs of bread, vinegar and checked out in a hurry. As she walked out the supermarket a nail polish stand caught her attention. She stopped, grabbing a dark red polish and walked back to the checkout. _I’m gonna paint my nail in my home, one last time_, she thought.

Her village had sunk into darkness as she made her way back home. Bombs rained on a village in the distance. With disgust, she watched the explosions light up the horizon like shards of lightning. They were followed by a muffled rumble and then a tower of dust and smoke and ash rose into the night sky. Tears rolled down her cheeks. She continued walking and, on her way, picked up a few logs for the fireplace. Darkness greeted her as she stepped inside her home. She turned on her phone’s flashlight, stacked the logs in the fireplace. She lit the lighter, touched it to the pile of wood, and the fireplace flickered into life with a faint whoosh. The fire cast only a dim glow over the living room. She would paint her nails by firelight. She sat a table and with gentle strokes brushed her nails, pausing every few seconds and blowing towards them so they would dry up faster. She stared at her nails glowing red in the firelight, and sank into her thoughts. She would leave tomorrow. What would happen to her family? A loud banging noise came from outside the house, jolting her out of her reverie. Her heart gave a lurch, beating faster.


----------



## Ajoy

Personally, I'd like to see these paragraphs broken up a bit more to reduce text block visual. There are some shifts in description and event that would be good places to do that.


alpacinoutd said:


> She wound a scarf around her neck and put on her boots. A blast of cold air hit her as she stepped out of the house. The war-scarred streets were bathed in the dim reddish glow of sunset as she walked to the supermarket. The main road to it was littered with craters and debris.


I'd try to combine these two sentences and attempt to get rid of the reference to streets and then the main road. Something like, 'She followed the war-scarred streets to the supermarket, navigating around craters and debris' (That needs work and I missed the sunset part, but hopefully it still gets the basic idea across. I also added an action from your character to break up some of the description, but you can decide if such a thing would fit what you're going for.)



alpacinoutd said:


> She’d almost grown used to seeing half-rubble buildings with blackened walls and car wreckage scattered around the streets. The putrid smell of ammunition powder wafting through the air no longer made her nauseous. That she’d become nonchalant about war surprised her more than the explosions.


I might put a paragraph break here. Maybe because you have the specific reference to car wreckage, you could incorporate that idea into the earlier idea of debris, allowing you to eliminate that word. If you could also cut this instance of 'streets', I think that would help (as the word is used in such close proximity above).



alpacinoutd said:


> To reach the supermarket, she’d go through a bridge over a stream.  She sighed wearily as she saw the bridge had crumbled, crooked rebar sticking out of its moss-coated columns. The bridge was intact the last time she’d gone to the supermarket. She trudged down towards the stream, hoping to find a shallow pass. The water was tinted red perhaps by the last rays of the sun, or perhaps by the blood of the slaughtered.


I'd do some rephrasing and sentence combining similar to my above suggestion to get rid of these repeated words. Also, since you mention the last rays of the sun and red tint here again, you could probably omit it from those opening sentences.



alpacinoutd said:


> Her boots were caked with mud as she labored through the stream. She arrived at the supermarket after several more minutes of walking. All the shelves were coated with a thin layer of ash. She grabbed a few canned beans, loafs of bread, vinegar and checked out in a hurry. As she walked out the supermarket a nail polish stand caught her attention. She stopped, grabbing a dark red polish and walked back to the checkout. _I’m gonna paint my nail in my home, one last time_, she thought.


nails?



alpacinoutd said:


> Her village had sunk into darkness as she made her way back home. Bombs rained on a village in the distance. With disgust, she watched the explosions light up the horizon like shards of lightning. They were followed by a muffled rumble and then a tower of dust and smoke and ash rose into the night sky. Tears rolled down her cheeks. She continued walking and, on her way, picked up a few logs for the fireplace.


Maybe another place for a paragraph break?



alpacinoutd said:


> Darkness greeted her as she stepped inside her home. She turned on her phone’s flashlight, stacked the logs in the fireplace. She lit the lighter, touched it to the pile of wood, and the fireplace flickered into life with a faint whoosh. The fire cast only a dim glow over the living room. She would paint her nails by firelight. She sat a table and with gentle strokes brushed her nails, pausing every few seconds and blowing towards them so they would dry up faster.


'lighter and touched'? 'sat at her table'? This is another possible place I could see a potential paragraph break (depending on the larger context).


alpacinoutd said:


> She stared at her nails glowing red in the firelight, and sank into her thoughts. She would leave tomorrow. What would happen to her family? A loud banging noise came from outside the house, jolting her out of her reverie. Her heart gave a lurch, beating faster.


I like the use of the red nail polish, red sky, and blood all being connected. I also liked the two references to her leaving, both thinking of it directly and when she decides to paint her nails.


----------



## tonsonenotany

@alpacinoutd I agree with @Ajoy that you need more paragraph breaks. In addition to reducing the wall of text, you can make certain lines pop more. For example, I'd put the banging from outside the house in a new paragraph. Keep the prose light on its feet. 



alpacinoutd said:


> The main road to it was littered with craters and debris


Using "it" in this way (to refer to the grocery store in the last sentence) always strikes me as awkward. To avoid repeating "grocery store" you can just say "store". 



alpacinoutd said:


> She arrived at the supermarket after several more minutes of walking


Put the arrival first, then the amount of time it took arrests the action. Either "after several minutes, she arrived at the supermarket" or even better "she arrived at the supermarket". Keep the pace up.



alpacinoutd said:


> She turned on her phone’s flashlight, stacked the logs in the fireplace. She lit the lighter, touched it to the pile of wood, and the fireplace flickered into life with a faint whoosh.


Is there kindling or tinder in the fireplace? Only the logs are mentioned. They wouldn't light just from a match. A minor detail but it decreases the realism.



alpacinoutd said:


> Bombs rained on a village in the distance. With disgust, she watched the explosions light up the horizon like shards of lightning. They were followed by a muffled rumble and then a tower of dust and smoke and ash rose into the night sky. Tears rolled down her cheeks.


I appreciate that you are trying to show that the character has not become desensitized to her world. But I felt that this brief mention of tears (followed by her continuing on her way) was a little too telly. If you want to make this moment I think it might need another line or two to make the emotion feel earned. For example, it could be a great time to impart a bit of backstory about the world, her village, etc (obviously I don't know how much backstory has been shared at this point). Or she could think of someone she knows over there and wonder if they are alright.

Good luck!


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> The first thing I noticed was how uniformly structured the sentences are, which gives it a robotic feel when reading. I'd break that up more in the rewrite. I'd also break the first paragraph down. It's long ...
> 
> She wound a scarf around her neck and put on her boots. *1/* A blast of cold air hit her as she stepped out of the house. The war-scarred streets were bathed in the dim reddish glow of sunset as she walked to the supermarket. *2/* The main road to it was littered with craters and debris. *3/* She’d almost grown used to seeing half-rubble buildings with blackened walls and car wreckage scattered around the streets. *4/* The putrid smell of ammunition powder wafting through the air no longer made her nauseous. That she’d become nonchalant about war surprised her more than the explosions. *5/* To reach the supermarket, she’d go through a bridge over a stream. *6/ *She sighed wearily as she saw the bridge had crumbled, crooked rebar sticking out of its moss-coated columns. *6/* The bridge was intact the last time she’d gone to the supermarket. *7/* She trudged down towards the stream, hoping to find a shallow pass. *8/* The water was tinted red perhaps by the last rays of the sun, or perhaps by the blood of the slaughtered. *9/* Her boots were caked with mud as she labored through the stream. *10/* She arrived at the supermarket after several more minutes of walking. *11/* All the shelves were coated with a thin layer of ash. *12/* She grabbed a few canned beans, loafs of bread, vinegar and checked out in a hurry. *13/ *As she walked out the supermarket a nail polish stand caught her attention. *13/* She stopped, grabbing a dark red polish and walked back to the checkout. _I’m gonna paint my nail in my home, one last time_, she thought.


*1/* '... out of the house' isn't very exciting or interesting. You can kill two birds with one stone here and make it both exciting and a more interesting sentence structure: *'A blast of cold air hit her as she stepped out onto the war-scarred streets, bathed in the dim reddish glow of sunset.' *There's a little bit of a quandary there in that the 'bathed in' then acts upon the protag, although I think it's ambiguous and suggestive enough for the reader to assume both. If not, you can add 'which was'.* 2/ *She just 'walks' to the supermarket even though this is war-torn with craters and debris. You can liven that up too and bring the supermarket into this sentence: *'She picked her way between craters and debris and headed for the supermarket.'* *3/* You've got a filter word here you don't need. Just describe it. What are 'half-rubble buildings? It would be better to go with something more straightforward like 'crumbled'. 'Rubble' is the end product of total collapse. There's nothing left but rubble. 'Crumbled' or 'crumbling' gives you that half way point. *'She'd almost grown accustomed to the crumbled buildings with blackened walls, and car wreckage scattered about the streets.'* *4/* 'putrid' is associated with rot so I'd change that. 'Caustic', 'metallic' or 'sodium' for instance. *5/* This is an awkward sentence. You don't go 'through' a bridge, you go over a bridge. You've made that mistake because you've used 'over a stream' and didn't want to repeat over. We also know where she's going so there's no need to repeat 'supermarket'. *6/* These two sentences don't flow well together. I'll try to adjust in line with the structure you've presented but in all honesty, I'd change them entirely: *'She sighed wearily when she reached the bridge. It had collapsed, the crooked rebar sticking out of it's moss-covered columns.'* You've used another filter here. You don't need to keep telling the reader it's her seeing this. Just describe it. You can remove the next sentence entirely. The fact she sighs tells us the last time she came here the bridge was intact. *7/* It's difficult to describe what you're doing. Each sentence is a separate image/event and each leads to the place you want the sequence to end, thus 'She trudged down towards the stream, hoping to find a shallow pass.' It's all rather mechanical. Don't think of the end journey, think of the actual journey. You're thinking too far ahead which is removing a sense of being there. *'She scrambled down the embankment in search of a shallow place to cross.' *You've thought of towards and where she's going. I've thought of what she's traversing, how she would traverse that thing and then what she's looking for. Sometimes it's because you're not picking the right word or not focusing in on the most relevant detail, but most of the time it's because you're not acting it out quite enough. *8/* The stream is made of water so you felt the need to mention directly it was made of water. It was red so you felt the need to mention directly it was 'tinted' red. Think more broadly and more about the overall image: *'The water ran red, perhaps from the last rays of sun, or perhaps from the blood of the slaughtered.'* *9/* She's now walking through water but you've got her boots caked in mud. Think more about the water and the action of the water on that mud. Now think of how she would walk through that water and a word that would describe the action accurately: *'Mud washed from her boots as she waded across.'* You don't need to mention 'water' or 'stream' again here. As I said though, I'm adjusting either in line with the original structure or in line with the detail presented. I'd want to link the idea of blood and her wading through it in some way, adding in the way she feels during the traversal (SUBTLY). *10/* You don't need this sentence. All it's doing is forming a logical bridge between her leaving the stream and getting to the supermarket, which means you've added in uninteresting detail. 'She walked' and 'several minutes'. As in earlier cases, just make it a separate paragraph and start with her at the supermarket, adding in a bridge there is you wish. *11/* *'When she finally arrived at the supermarket, all the shelves were coated with a thin layer of ash.'* *12/* Here's a perfect instance of what I've been saying about 'not being there.' She's travelled all that distance and then just leaves after grabbing cans of beans. Act it out. Put us there. Let us feel what she's feeling/thinking about the interior as she searches for what she needs. *13/* See, here you say the nail varnish caught her attention so you felt the need to directly mention it caught her attention. You're using short cuts like this because you're not acting it out. We're not feeling what the protag is going through. Then she just grabs the nail polish and heads for the checkout. Only in the last line do we get any 'personal' input. You're kinda going through the motions, picking through the events logically, and using on the nose descriptions of those actions rather than building around them and adding in flavour. 


alpacinoutd said:


> Her village had sunk into darkness as she made her way back home. Bombs rained on a village in the distance. With disgust, she watched the explosions light up the horizon like shards of lightning. They were followed by a muffled rumble and then a tower of dust and smoke and ash rose into the night sky. Tears rolled down her cheeks. She continued walking and, on her way, picked up a few logs for the fireplace. Darkness greeted her as she stepped inside her home. She turned on her phone’s flashlight, walked to her room, grabbed two candles and lit them. They cast a dim glow over the room. She would paint her nails by candle light.


This paragraph highlights what I've been saying. Each sentence is just a description of what happened and each is separate from the last and the next. There's a link but it's staggered and doesn't flow.

A quick rewrite:

*The village had sunk into darkness as she made her may back home, bombs raining down in the distance. She cowed as explosions lit up the horizon like shards of lightening, and towers of smoke rose from the rumble into a wounded sky. Tears ran through the dust on her cheeks. She remembered what shopping used to be, how it brightened an otherwise ordinary day, but it was far from ordinary now. Hefting the string carrier holding her shopping, she turned her back on the war and gripped the nail-varnish tight, hoping in a quieter corner somewhere she could paint on a little humanity. Darkness greeted her when she stepped inside her home. Flicking on her phone's flashlight, she made for her room, her sanctuary, and removed a box of matches from a bedside table. She would paint her nails by candlelight. *

@Ajoy @tonsonenotany 

Many thanks for your contributions!


----------



## alpacinoutd

tonsonenotany said:


> Is there kindling or tinder in the fireplace? Only the logs are mentioned. They wouldn't light just from a match. A minor detail but it decreases the realism.



Does this work?

Paulina soldiered on through the debris-scattered road. Remembering she'd need logs for the fireplace, she stopped. To her left, next to a crumbled house, lay a half-burnt park. Her stomach clenched at the sight of scorched, broken trees. It was in this park that she'd take her niece, Sara, every weekend. Sara had fled the country with her mom after her father, Paulina's brother, had been killed in a shell attack. Paulina squatted down to pick up a few logs and tinder. For a moment, over the distant rumble of explosion, she heard Sara laugh. Her mind slid back to just a few weeks ago. Sara was running around the park, squealing with excitement. If then someone would've told her, in the same park, she would be collecting tinder and logs for her fireplace because she wouldn't have electricity or gas, she would've laughed. It was a funny thing the way fate had played tricks on her and so many others. Despair overwhelmed her as the smell of burnt limbs stung her nose. She put the logs and tinder in her shopping bags and made for her house.

Darkness greeted her when she stepped inside home. Flicking on her phone's flashlight, she stacked the logs in the fireplace, putting the tinder beneath them. She lit the lighter, touching it to the pile of wood, and the fireplace flickered into life with a faint whoosh. The fire cast a dim glow over the living room. She would paint her nails by firelight. 

She sat at her table and with gentle strokes brushed her nails, pausing every few seconds and blowing towards them so they would dry up faster. She stared at her nails glowing red in the firelight, and sank into her thoughts. She would leave tomorrow. Would she be able to reunite with her parents? What would become of her ex boyfriend? Where was he now? Why wouldn't he text her? Was he okay? After everything he'd done to her, should she care?

*I tried to make a connection between sentences and make it personal.


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## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> Does this work?
> 
> *1/ {*Paulina soldiered on through the debris-scattered road. Remembering she'd need logs for the fireplace, she stopped. To her left, next to a crumbled house, lay a half-burnt park. Her stomach clenched at the sight of scorched, broken trees. It was in this park that she'd take her niece, Sara, every weekend. Sara had fled the country with her mom after her father, Paulina's brother, had been killed in a shell attack.*}* *[new paragraph] 2/*Paulina squatted down to pick up a few logs and tinder. *2/* For a moment, over the distant rumble of explosion, she heard Sara laugh. *3/* Her mind slid back to just a few weeks ago. *3/* Sara was running around the park, squealing with excitement. *4/* If then someone would've told her, in the same park, she would be collecting tinder and logs for her fireplace because she wouldn't have electricity or gas, she would've laughed. *5/* It was a funny thing the way fate had played tricks on her and so many others. *6/* Despair overwhelmed her as the smell of burnt limbs stung her nose. *6/* She put the logs and tinder in her shopping bags and made for her house.


*1/* This is still clunky but there's far more to it and it's much better overall 'scene' wise. *2/* Consider the word 'squatted'. What does it mean? Can you squat in any other way but 'down'? Logs are tinder in that they're things you can burn. You only need tinder because the likelihood is she'd pick up anything that will burn. On the face of it that sentence is uninteresting because it's just an on the nose description of what she does. Add in the next sentence and it becomes framing for the following sentiment: *'Paulina squatted to pick up tinder and for a moment, over the distant rumble of explosions, she heard Sara laugh'. *We now have a shortened version of the action that acts as the jumping off point for the more interesting information. On it's own, that sentence carries too much visible weight. By bringing the two together, the weight is lessened and swung towards what matters most. Give that thought when considering sentence lengths and importance. Brevity for least important and expansion for most important. Just a quick rule of thumb though. There are many exceptions. *3/* Same thing here with these two sentences. Sometimes you can layer meaning into a paragraph that lends a simple sentence poignancy/tenderness/gravitas/etc. In my rewrite of you last paragraph above, I've used that with *'She would paint her nails by candlelight.' *Here, I would write: *'Her mind slipped back to just a few weeks earlier, when Sarah ran around the park, squealing with excitement.' 4/ *would've/would/wouldn't/would've. That's too much: *'If someone had told her, back then in the park, she'd be collective wood for the fire because of no electricity or gas, she would have laughed.' 5/ *You're still leaning heavily on 'was' constructions. There's no reason why this couldn't simply be: *'Funny how fate played tricks on her and so many others.'* I've gone for the fragment and not added 'It's' just because it makes it feel like an informal thought. *6/* Do you see how there's no connection between these two sentences other than the actions following on. She smelt burning flesh. She put logs in her bag and went home. Create a bridge when you can: *'Despair overwhelmed her as the smell of burnt flesh stung her nostrils. She quickly filled her bag with logs, wanting to escape the smell, wanting to get home.' *Although I've mention the smell again in the second sentence, that's not the bridge. She's overwhelmed and would want to get out of their quickly. It's 'She quickly filled her bag ...' that bridges the two. 'escape the smell' emphasises it. Do you see how these two sentences sit together now? The same information but linked to create a flow between the two sentences. 


alpacinoutd said:


> Darkness greeted her when she stepped inside home. Flicking on her phone's flashlight, she stacked the logs in the fireplace, putting the tinder beneath them. She lit the lighter, touching it to the pile of wood, and the fireplace flickered into life with a faint whoosh. The fire cast a dim glow over the living room. She would paint her nails by firelight.
> 
> She sat at her table and with gentle strokes brushed her nails, pausing every few seconds and *to* blowing towards them so they would dry up faster. She stared at her nails glowing red in the firelight, and sank into her thoughts. She would leave tomorrow. Would she be able to reunite with her parents? What would become of her ex boyfriend? Where was he now? Why wouldn't he text her? Was he okay? After everything he'd done to her, should she care?
> 
> *I tried to make a connection between sentences and make it personal.


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## tonsonenotany

Not to be a wood know-it-all but logs are not tinder. Tinder is stuff like wood shavings, bark, dryer lint, paper etc that will catch from a match only. Log implies a certain thickness- they wouldn’t catch until the fire has been going for at least five minutes.

I’m not asking you to belabor the description here, my point is just that starting a fire takes time and care. The description as is makes it sound sort of video-game-click-A-for-flame instantaneous. I would say something that indicates time passing, like “She bent down and started working on a fire. She lit a match. Five minutes later she rolled back on her heels as the weak glow began lighting the room.”


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## tonsonenotany

TheMightyAz said:


> 'Paulina squatted to pick up tinder and for a moment, over the distant rumble of explosions, she heard Sara laugh'.


This is a good line.


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## Kent_Jacobs

tonsonenotany said:


> Not to be a wood know-it-all but logs are not tinder. Tinder is stuff like wood shavings, bark, dryer lint, paper etc that will catch from a match only. Log implies a certain thickness- they wouldn’t catch until the fire has been going for at least five minutes.
> 
> I’m not asking you to belabor the description here, my point is just that starting a fire takes time and care. The description as is makes it sound sort of video-game-click-A-for-flame instantaneous. I would say something that indicates time passing, like “She bent down and started working on a fire. She lit a match. Five minutes later she rolled back on her heels as the weak glow began lighting the room.”


I never put it right. I meant she wouldn't be looking for logs, she'd be looking for tinder ... something to burn. Logs put me in mind of something deliberately cut for burning. If I had to pick between the two in the piece, I'd pick tinder. I'd personally have gone for scraps of wood though.


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## Taylor

TheMightyAz said:


> I never put it right. I meant she wouldn't be looking for logs, she'd be looking for tinder ... something to burn.


Sorry to jump in here!   I have a wood-burning fireplace that I use for heat in the winter.  You can't just use tinder, because it is only lit to start the fire and keep it flaming long enough, to get the logs burning.   For her to come home with just tinder, would make no sense at all.  And it's very hard to lite the logs, without the tinder.  They really do go hand in hand.

Personally, I like the pace of these two sentences.  It's two separate actions and as a reader, I prefer to picture the scene first and then have her thoughts layered on top.

_Paulina squatted down to pick up a few logs and tinder. For a moment, over the distant rumble of explosion, she heard Sara laugh.  _

Not sure what your reason is for shortening it to one sentence.


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## Taylor

A very good visual well done!  Just one thing that I noticed is repetition.  It's something I struggle with myself.  It's easy to fix it after the fact.  Here's a suggestion:



alpacinoutd said:


> Paulina soldiered on through the debris-scattered road. Remembering she'd need *wood* for the fireplace, she stopped. To her left, next to a crumbled house, lay a half-burnt park. Her stomach clenched at the sight of scorched, broken trees. It was in this park that she'd take her niece, Sara, every weekend. Sara had fled the country with her mom after her father, Paulina's brother, had been killed in a shell attack. Paulina squatted down to pick up a few *logs and tinder.* For a moment, over the distant rumble of explosion, she heard Sara laugh. Her mind slid back to just a few weeks ago. Sara was running around the park, squealing with excitement. If then someone would've told her, in the same park, she would be collecting *fuel to burn* because she wouldn't have electricity or gas, she would've laughed. It was a funny thing the way fate had played tricks on her and so many others. Despair overwhelmed her as the smell of *singed* limbs stung her nose. She put her *collection from the **fallen branches* in her shopping bags and made for her house.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Taylor said:


> Sorry to jump in here!   I have a wood-burning fireplace that I use for heat in the winter.  You can't just use tinder, because it is only lit to start the fire and keep it flaming long enough, to get the logs burning.   For her to come home with just tinder, would make no sense at all.  And it's very hard to lite the logs, without the tinder.  They really do go hand in hand.
> 
> Personally, I like the pace of these two sentences.  It's two separate actions and as a reader, I prefer to picture the scene first and then have her thoughts layered on top.
> 
> _Paulina squatted down to pick up a few logs and tinder. For a moment, over the distant rumble of explosion, she heard Sara laugh.  _
> 
> Not sure what your reason is for shortening it to one sentence.


In this instance, because I had a previous section to go through, I found myself honing in on the flow between sentences. All I was doing is showing how and why you'd bring two sentences together sometimes. If the surrounding sentences weren't of a similar structure, then, yes, those sentences are fine as they are but they're not alone and as such create a stop/start effect.
Bringing them together creates a longer sentence, links them more directly and varies the sentence length, breaking that stop/start effect. 

In terms of the tinder sentence, I merely picked one of the words presented and opted for tinder because it's the more likely thing to be found. As I said above, logs tend to be cut deliberately for burning. Sometimes I'll cut one word out and other times I'll offer an alternative. Perhaps here it would have been better to offer an alternative. Maybe 'pieces of wood' or 'scraps of wood'. Something you're likely to find scattered on a battlefield.


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## Theglasshouse

Hello, the themightyaz. I am trying here to make the sentences in this paragraph cohesive and coherent. I mainly would appreciate an opinion on whether one sentence follows the next logically. I am still working on style issues. Thanks a ton for your help both previous times and past times.

The hospital that loomed around the corner was a gentle giant people compared to a castle in its size and dimensions. It made everything else that compared to its sheer size look small. The fortified walls of rooms and foundations towered above and dwarfed a human. Even the doors needed giants to move them. The hallways resembled chalk where people slept, and people dined in dining rooms and halls. Inside people occupied three hundred bedrooms. The hospitals contained large, connected hallways, these rooms, and permanent and temporary residents such as doctors lived here in a community of houses. The hospital even had a village square at the center of its edifices to call its own where the houses the workers constructed resembled the size of chairs and were not built for a normal human.

Thank you. I know I need a person or main character in the scene most likely. I would appreciate your comments on what I asked for. But you can also point out any other things that you think are important.


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## Kent_Jacobs

It's a bit late here so I'll go through it tomorrow. If I have the time I'll give it a flow pass and another pass pointing out my usual stuff.


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## Theglasshouse

I appreciate it themightyaz. The book I ordered which is a prentice hall guide I think will help me tremendously. It's written by Colorado state university 's writing department. It has a lot of journaling exercises. I suspect they incorporate the journaling activities in many chapters from quickly glancing inside the book. I borrowed it from an online library too and ordered a copy. I expect this and one more book will improve my writing skills with practice ( creative writing handbook). One of the books goals is to make the writer 's writing more visual which will improve the style. I don't usually journal since I don't know how. It is an excellent how to book. It will arrive in 1 week I estimate. Many thanks as always.









						The Prentice Hall guide for college writers : Reid, Stephen, 1940- : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
					


xxiv, 648, [94] p. : 24 cm




					archive.org


----------



## tonsonenotany

Theglasshouse said:


> The hospital that loomed around the corner was a gentle giant people compared to a castle in its size and dimensions. It made everything else that compared to its sheer size look small. The fortified walls of rooms and foundations towered above and dwarfed a human. Even the doors needed giants to move them. The hallways resembled chalk where people slept, and people dined in dining rooms and halls. Inside people occupied three hundred bedrooms. The hospitals contained large, connected hallways, these rooms, and permanent and temporary residents such as doctors lived here in a community of houses. The hospital even had a village square at the center of its edifices to call its own where the houses the workers constructed resembled the size of chairs and were not built for a normal human


For context, is this an introductory paragraph, like setting the scene for a short story or novel?

I’d start by thinking about what the purpose of this paragraph is in terms of the story, and then reviewing in your mind whether it performs its function.  I say this because it’s easy to ramble with description, something I am certainly guilty of.

As a reader, here is my sense of what is being communicated here. The hospital is large, perhaps magically so? Or if not magically so, then at least in a way that looms large in the imaginations of its denizens. And it’s right to call them denizens, as they inhabit this space like they would a town.

Does that sound like what you are going for?

Also, I definitely leave this paragraph unclear whether the chairs, rooms, walls are actually larger than human size or not. In general descriptive passages should not be confusing, but it could be fine if you have a clear purpose for that. But if you are just trying to convey a sense of the building, let me know, I can suggest other ways to convey that.

Lastly, a number of the sentences are too long. You always want to chop unnecessary wording so that your writing has punch. Here’s an example.



Theglasshouse said:


> The hospital that loomed around the corner was a gentle giant people compared to a castle in its size and dimensions.


For one, you do not need “size and dimensions” — you are talking about size already, the reader will understand that the comparison is operating on this level. I’d rewrite like this, but obviously there are many possibilities:

The hospital around the corner loomed like a gentle giant. Everyone compared it to a castle.

Even with that, the double comparison to a giant and a castle is unnecessary. You would be fine with:

The hospital around the corner loomed like a castle.

Several sentences need this treatment, particularly your last one.

Good luck, and happy to read a rewrite!


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## Kent_Jacobs

Theglasshouse said:


> *1/* The hospital that loomed around the corner was a gentle giant people compared to a castle in its size and dimensions. *1/* It made everything else that compared to its sheer size look small. *1/* The fortified walls of rooms and foundations towered above and dwarfed a human. *1/* Even the doors needed giants to move them.* 2/* The hallways resembled chalk where people slept, and people dined in dining rooms and halls. *2/* Inside people occupied three hundred bedrooms. *2/* The hospitals contained large, connected hallways, these rooms, and permanent and temporary residents such as doctors lived here in a community of houses. *2/* The hospital even had a village square at the center of its edifices to call its own where the houses the workers constructed resembled the size of chairs and were not built for a normal human.


*1/* These sentences follow on nicely, although the use of 'The' still separates the second from last sentence a little. You've tied it up nicely with an 'Even' there, which retrospectively makes it feel completed as a whole. *2/* This is where it starts becoming fragmented, partly because you repeat information and partly because of the habit you've got of using 'The' at the start of the sentences. You do that in the first set of sentences too, but it isn't quite as intrusive. I'll get to that in the second pass. 'The' (the definitive) is emphatic and when repeated works similar to a full stop stylistically speaking. 'The boy walked over to the river. The river ran with oil. The boy wanted to cross. The bridge was out.' Do you see what I mean? It's that emphasis of the full stop that's making it feel robotic. 'Even' is a good example of smoothing in and smoothing out, but don't take that to mean you need to use 'even' more. There are many ways of doing it but at the end of the day, it's a feel thing. You've got to feel the rhythm yourself and then translate it onto the page. Be aware of how words can be hard, soft, stretched, smooth etc and imagine yourself conducting an orchestra, your baton being the natural flow between one musical phrase and the next. Words are wonderful things and deserve to be loved, not just used to explain. Try a bit of poetry for a while.  It doesn't matter if you're not good at it. It's just that the format makes it much easier to get a feel for words. 

I'll leave it at that because tonsonenotany has covered most of the other things I would cover.


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## Theglasshouse

The hospital in size looked similar in size to a gentle giant. People compared it to a castle. It was quiet in the entrance to the front rooms of this hospital that towered higher than two meters. All the doors that dwarfed humans made them think they were themselves, children. These doors needed a giant to move and open them. So did the chairs move with great difficulty that measured sixty-four and forty centimeters in width. They could not move just as sculptures could not that stood standing two meters tall. The large sculptures in the enclosed halls of the hospital kept the population's feelings from being shattered. The humans were always treated innocently in the large enclosed areas. They were rarely released to the big village square as if they were children because of vulnerable egos because of the evil giants. The gigantic hospital made them feel like children again.
@tonsonenotany
For context, is this an introductory paragraph, like setting the scene for a short story or novel? Yes, it's a bit of world-building with description. I admit I need to make the descriptions more impactful. Yes the description of the hallways is awkward and simplistic. I want to write this as fantasy and science fiction.

Would the simile work better as an appositive? I know I made a double comparison. I was thinking if I made it an appositive it would be more excusable. I liked the original and it seems this is the one suggestion that would diminish the style.

I eliminated size and dimensions. I removed size and the multiple times. I hope it works better this time.
@TheMightyAz:
I am getting the message that the rhythm didn't work for you. I tried again. I hope it works better. If it doesn't I will probably try to sign up for a class. I have two classes in mind for a community college. I erased those sentences and I do see the disconnect. It has now been modified. The sentences are a little longer than I wanted because of the criticism which I tried to make better.

Thanks everyone. I plan to sooner or later buy a book and take those classes.


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## tonsonenotany

Theglasshouse said:


> The hospital in size looked similar in size to a gentle giant.



Still gotta be on the lookout for duplicative words in a sentence. Drop the first “in size”.

It can be helpful to read someone who is a very terse, compact writer to understand what a minimalistic sentence looks like. Hemingway for example. George Saunders too. I’m not saying that this should be your style, but every writer has to cut, and most writers over-embellish in the beginning. 


Theglasshouse said:


> It was quiet in the entrance to the front rooms of this hospital that towered higher than two meters.



This sentence is doing two things at once, communicating the quiet and the height. It is more natural for it to do one, I think. Try this:

_The rooms were more than two meters high. The entrance was quiet._

If you want to have multiple points in the same sentence, you typically need commas or other clause-separating devices.



Theglasshouse said:


> They were rarely released to the big village square as if they were children because of vulnerable egos because of the evil giants.



Can’t have two becauses in the same sentence. Here, I am unclear on what the evil giants are doing. Did they give the humans their vulnerable egos? Again, master making atomic, to-the-point sentences then work on increasing their length and floweriness. I’d rewrite like this:

_They were rarely released to the big public square. The giants made  them feel like children._

Try also mixing short and long sentences as well as sentence structures so that you keep the reader’s interest.


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## PrairieHostage

alpacinoutd said:


> *(She* wound a scarf around her neck and put on her boots. A blast of cold air hit her as she stepped out of the house. The war-scarred streets were bathed in the dim reddish glow of sunset as she walked to the supermarket. The main road to it was littered with craters and *debris)  Start here: *She’d almost grown used to seeing half-rubble buildings with blackened walls and car wreckage scattered around the streets. The putrid smell of ammunition powder wafting through the air no longer made her nauseous.That she’d become nonchalant about war surprised her more than the explosions. (To reach the supermarket, she’d go through a bridge over a stream.)


Recommend losing bracketed preamble and last sentence above and creating a new para below. Remove the word *she* in a few places by switching around sentence structure.


alpacinoutd said:


> She sighed wearily as she saw the bridge had crumbled, crooked rebar sticking out of its moss-coated columns. The bridge was intact the last time she’d gone to the supermarket. She trudged down towards the stream, hoping to find a shallow pass. The water was tinted red perhaps by the last rays of the sun, or perhaps by the blood of the slaughtered. Her boots were caked with mud as she labored through the stream. She arrived at the supermarket after several more minutes of walking. All the shelves were coated with a thin layer of ash.


New para


alpacinoutd said:


> She grabbed a few canned beans, loafs of bread, vinegar and checked out in a hurry. As she walked out the supermarket a nail polish stand caught her attention. She stopped, grabbing a dark red polish and walked back to the checkout. _I’m gonna paint my nail in my home, one last time_, she thought.
> 
> Her village had sunk into darkness as she made her way back home. Bombs rained on a village in the distance. With disgust, she watched the explosions light up the horizon like shards of lightning. They were followed by a muffled rumble and then a tower of dust and smoke and ash rose into the night sky. Tears rolled down her cheeks.


New para


alpacinoutd said:


> She continued walking and, on her way, picked up a few logs for the fireplace.


New para


alpacinoutd said:


> Darkness greeted her as she stepped inside her home. She turned on her phone’s flashlight, stacked the logs in the fireplace. She lit the lighter, touched it to the pile of wood, and the fireplace flickered into life with a faint whoosh. The fire cast only a dim glow over the living room.


New para


alpacinoutd said:


> She would paint her nails by firelight. She sat a table and with gentle strokes brushed her nails, pausing every few seconds and blowing towards them so they would dry up faster. She stared at her nails glowing red in the firelight, and sank into her thoughts. She would leave tomorrow. What would happen to her family? A loud banging noise came from outside the house, jolting her out of her reverie. Her heart gave a lurch, beating faster.


Above try to remove the word *she* in a few sentences by changing sentence structures.


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## Cornelius Coburn

Deleted


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## Theglasshouse

tonsonenotany said:


> Still gotta be on the lookout for duplicative words in a sentence. Drop the first “in size”.
> 
> It can be helpful to read someone who is a very terse, compact writer to understand what a minimalistic sentence looks like. Hemingway for example. George Saunders too. I’m not saying that this should be your style, but every writer has to cut, and most writers over-embellish in the beginning.
> 
> 
> This sentence is doing two things at once, communicating the quiet and the height. It is more natural for it to do one, I think. Try this:
> 
> _The rooms were more than two meters high. The entrance was quiet._
> 
> If you want to have multiple points in the same sentence, you typically need commas or other clause-separating devices.
> 
> 
> 
> Can’t have two becauses in the same sentence. Here, I am unclear on what the evil giants are doing. Did they give the humans their vulnerable egos? Again, master making atomic, to-the-point sentences then work on increasing their length and floweriness. I’d rewrite like this:
> 
> _They were rarely released to the big public square. The giants made  them feel like children._
> 
> Try also mixing short and long sentences as well as sentence structures so that you keep the reader’s interest.


Thanks for the ideas, responses. I could get some people to help me of this forum from time to time. I liked the explanations. I will try to apply these future ideas for revisions of paragraphs. Getting a poet to read it could be another good idea for being more minimalist and compact. Thanks tonsonenotany.


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## tonsonenotany

One of the thought exercises they may ask you to do in a class is this:

can you drop any sentence in a paragraph without substantially impoverishing the meaning? If so, do it. Then repeat till it can’t be done anymore.

You can also do this on the level of paragraphs for longer works, and word-by-word.

Can I ask if this paragraph is all you have for the piece so far? Some people write by perfecting each paragraph before they go on to the next, but many (including myself), write the whole thing out largely unedited then go back and prune in multiple passes. It can be easier to do this stuff when you’ve got (and can give the reader) a more solid sense of the tone of the whole thing.


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## Theglasshouse

I know that writing is a process especially with my current skill set. I am trying to get it right by applying the advice after each response. I want to become independent at writing these paragraphs. I have a lot of ideas on how to continue this story. The problem is the cohesion which I thought I had in this piece wasn't good enough the first time around (themightyaz spotted it). I can try asking my parents to help me take an esl class and a creative writing class at a university ( community college). I might have to sell Dragon to afford it all. But I will try to find a way to do it by not selling it. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0199006407/?tag=writingforu0c-20

This book supposedly helps writers communicate better.

Don't get me wrong on the issue of cohesion. The second time it improved I think. But it still has issues. I am glad you pointed out how to improve it by separating the main ideas. Also, thanks to themightyaz. The book I think covers easy ways to transition into coherence. I bought many books on observation. I plan to put these to use.

I am writing it piece by piece. I think if I write too much no one will want to take a second look. I am not confident at my writing skills at all.

I might need to amplify the topic sentence by using the journalist questions. I figure when I make the sentences one idea it becomes an unrelated thought to the topic sentence.
Still I like everyone's advice and I will use it. @tonsonenotany. I will be posting this once I get a better idea on tips on how to make the topic sentence included the sentences with 2 ideas. I probably have 3-4 books on the way home. It's all on how to improve my writing skills. These tips will come from the book's I ordered. I can use the tips I gathered from the internet. It will help me with composing a better topic sentence. I might need to separate the ideas at the same time when I do so. I will post a new paragraph once I have all the resources and materials and have had the time to read and apply your tips and the book's advice too.

I will take your suggestions and use them all.


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## tonsonenotany

Theglasshouse said:


> I am writing it piece by piece. I think if I write too much no one will want to take a second look. I am not confident at my writing skills at all.


Piece by piece is fine if that is your process! But please don’t worry about writing too much! People here will read it. It can be easier for  people to critique longer passages because you can get a sense of the important plot points and therefore know which lines are essential and which are not. This is especially true for sci-fi/ speculative fiction where there’s a lot of worldbuilding.

And yes, I definitely think your second pass is an improvement! My apologies, I should have mentioned that. I get a better sense of the world and it draws me in more.


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## Theglasshouse

@tonsonenotany and @TheMightyAz

I decided to use imitation to write this part of the story. It might be the main hook of the story I am writing. Imitation works great with dictation. It's no accident that I try to replace each word with my own unique contribution. It bears no resemblance to the original I'd like to think.  Any thoughts on how to improve it if any? I am thinking of buying more stories that take place in original settings that I can try to describe with a modicum level of success.

The first children who saw the ugly and lanky giant approaching through the grass let themselves think it was a gentleman. Then they saw that he had no suit or expensive clothes and they thought he was a stranger. But when they saw he came from a castle, they waved grinning their faces, and the clothes full of grime and insects bared no resemblance to his high stature of what he owned that indicated wealth.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Theglasshouse said:


> I decided to use imitation to write this part of the story. It might be the main hook of the story I am writing. Imitation works great with dictation. It's no accident that I try to replace each word with my own unique contribution. It bears no resemblance to the original I'd like to think.  Any thoughts on how to improve it if any? I am thinking of buying more stories that take place in original settings that I can try to describe with a modicum level of success.


I know I keep saying this but take the above style and apply it to the below paragraph. And I know I keep saying this too, but stop reading those books and using all these 'methods'. Just write a story without thinking you have to be in some way 'literary'. I find it so difficult to understand why your clarity disappears when you approach writing prose as apposed to writing a comment. You can still be clever with your use of word and rhythm in the style you use for comments. You're getting yourself tied up in knots over this and it's not helpful. 

The above is more artfully put together. The only sentence in the above that I'd take a big issue with is: 'Any thoughts on how to improve it if any?' You don't need 'if any' at the end there. It adds nothing and repeats the word 'any'. That's it though. The rest would be simple tweaks, whereas with your prose style, my only option in many cases is to completely rewrite. 

Please give this some thought and let yourself relax for a while. I don't believe in patronising anyone. It doesn't help in the least, which is why I'm always as honest as possible. I also like you a lot and want to see you do well. Just ease it up, man. 


Theglasshouse said:


> The first children who saw the ugly and lanky giant approaching through the grass let themselves think it was a gentleman. Then they saw that he had no suit or expensive clothes and they thought he was a stranger. But when they saw he came from a castle, they waved grinning their faces, and the clothes full of grime and insects bared no resemblance to his high stature of what he owned that indicated wealth.


Post the original version of this along with your rewrite. Straight talk: this reads as if written by an AI program.


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## Theglasshouse

A giant walked along the trail of brass mud and blades of grass where some children played wooden harps near the glades. The children thought his appearance suggested abject poverty, but that didn't tell the whole story of the origins of his wealth. His worn clothes consisted of rags torn with holes and his skin had lash marks. But despite the sighting and songs of insects buzzing and hornets stinging his wound they thought he came from a noble birthplace. Because he had come from inside a castle. The children looked excited at this new discovery that they thought he was not so poor. They decided they wanted to meet the giant since they thought he possessed wealth. They didn't care for anything else in the world other than by discovering by curiosity what they could without adults interfering with their findings.

I understand where you are coming from themightyaz. I am thinking then imitation won't work. I wrote the second version using my language instincts. Maybe my brain is hardwired differently. I do have autism after all. There is supposedly a lack of central coherence theory that has to do with autism and this is apparent in writing stories. My parents are going to take me to a doctor. My mother is a tad bit sick, but I want to go to one my mother's in-laws knows. Maybe I should take some rest from writing until I see the doctors. Thanks for writing those kind words. It was tactful and respectful.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Theglasshouse said:


> A giant walked along the trail of brass mud and blades of grass where some children played near the glades. The children thought his appearance suggested abject poverty, but that didn't tell the whole story. His worn clothes consisted of rags torn with holes and his skin had lash marks. But despite the sighting and songs of insects buzzing and stinging his wound they thought he came from a noble birthplace. Because he had come from inside a castle. The children looked excited at this new discovery that he was not so poor. They decided they wanted to meet the giant since they thought he possessed wealth. They didn't care for anything else in the world other than by discovering by curiosity without adults interfering.
> 
> I understand where you are coming from themightyaz. I am thinking then imitation won't work. I wrote the second version using my language instincts. Maybe my brain is hardwired differently. I do have autism after all. There is supposedly a lack of central coherence theory that has to do with autism and this is apparent in writing stories. My parents are going to take me to a doctor. My mother is a tad bit sick, but I want to go to one my mother's in-laws knows. Maybe I should take some rest from writing until I see the doctors. Thanks for writing those kind words. It was tactful and respectful.


You are to be admired for sticking with it no matter what the obstacles. Out of interest, where is that first paragraph from?


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## Theglasshouse

The handsomest drowned man in the world by: Gabriel Garcia Marquez. That is where I imitated the sentences' structure of the first paragraph only of the short story that inspired me. It can be found on a web search.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Theglasshouse said:


> The handsomest drowned man in the world by: Gabriel Garcia Marquez. That is where I imitated the sentences' structure of the first paragraph only of the short story that inspired me. It can be found on a web search.


I'm a little confused here. Is the imitation you posted an imitation of your own imitation? This is all I can find that resembles what you posted:

*THE FIRST CHILDREN who saw the dark and slinky bulge approaching through the sea let themselves think it was an enemy ship. Then they saw it had no flags or masts and they thought it was a whale. But when it washed up on the beach, they removed the clumps of seaweed, the jellyfish tentacles, and the remains of fish and flotsam, and only then did they see that it was a drowned man.*


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## Theglasshouse

Yes that is the first paragraph I was referring to in the post. It's the same one I mentioned here. That is what inspired the first paragraph I posted.

*THE FIRST CHILDREN who saw the dark and slinky bulge approaching through the sea let themselves think it was an enemy ship. Then they saw it had no flags or masts and they thought it was a whale. But when it washed up on the beach, they removed the clumps of seaweed, the jellyfish tentacles, and the remains of fish and flotsam, and only then did they see that it was a drowned man.*

The second imitation which I used the inspiration from the first paragraph imitation of the example I posted first is the second result and indeed an an attempt to imitate myself using my own voice. ( without copying sentence structures except keeping the plot of what came out of my experiment).


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## Kent_Jacobs

Theglasshouse said:


> Yes that is the first paragraph I was referring to in the post. It's the same one I mentioned here. That is what inspired the first paragraph I posted.
> 
> *THE FIRST CHILDREN who saw the dark and slinky bulge approaching through the sea let themselves think it was an enemy ship. Then they saw it had no flags or masts and they thought it was a whale. But when it washed up on the beach, they removed the clumps of seaweed, the jellyfish tentacles, and the remains of fish and flotsam, and only then did they see that it was a drowned man.*
> 
> The second imitation which I used the inspiration from the first paragraph imitation of the example I posted first is the second result and indeed an an attempt to imitate myself using my own voice. ( without copying sentence structures except keeping the plot of what came out of my experiment).


I think you're misunderstanding 'imitation'. The idea isn't to take a piece and alter it while still maintaining the main thrust of what is being said, it's to use that piece as inspiration. Years ago, I used to document paragraphs in a book I had. I used to read books and note down the page number along with the paragraph number and add it to any number of different categories. For instance, I had a section on Odd John and the heading was 'snow'. The idea was to then have a reference for when I wanted to describe snow. Not to copy or alter what Koontz wrote, but rather to examine the structure of the paragraph. I had many other headings like 'woods', 'rivers', 'scenery' or 'sadness', 'fear', 'indifference' and so on.

To apply 'imitation' to the piece I posted, you'd simply say: Children see something. They think it's something it isn't. On closer inspection it's not what they thought it was.


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## Theglasshouse

That's correct. It seems I thought imitation ( a misconception) was something else. Anyways, my mother being sick will delay my visit for 1 week. That is her promise. My family has been denying for a long time I have writing problems. They want to be kind. However, getting published before confused him ( my oldest brother) and my mother. My oldest brother is the person who has no time to comment and lives with me. My youngest brother lies a lot about the problems in my writing ( and he now has a new born child). He doesn't want to offend me. He lives in a different country. I hope next week doesn't get complicated for me to solve my writing problems. Anyways I will appreciate your advice given so far in this thread and elsewhere. Thank you, and you have my respect.


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## tonsonenotany

I think it might be helpful for you to  write a piece that is longer than what you have shared above. Something with a plot you come up with. Don’t try to consciously imitate a style (our minds naturally do this anyway). Maybe write a piece of flash fiction that is 300-700 words. A small, simple story. 

I suggest this because the need to make a functional story with a beginning, middle, and end can force us to write in a directed way. While it is important to work on the craft of writing, it is also true that you improve at writing by doing it. And once it is written, you read it to yourself (or out loud) over and over, looking for stuff that does not sound good, that trips up your speech, sentences that wander. Developing this internal critic is vital.

I am reminded of a college professor who told us that our first ten stories would be bad. So we might as well get them out of the way quickly.


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## Theglasshouse

Thanks. I will get working on a draft for a flash fiction piece which I will post. I will allow it to be awful. Thanks for the truthful part that we write terrible stories all the time. The internal critic is something I try to please as I read aloud my work usually. I will remember the advice not to imitate. I think what I did was combine the idea of children being the observers of an event. I will introduce a third character. We will see how I do. Thanks @tonsonenotany.


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## alpacinoutd

Does this work?

Barren as its land was, the women of the village were quite fertile, each of them mothering at least three children. Jarrod, more than anything, was pained by their selfishness and cruelty reflected in their indifference towards bringing children into such an unforgiving land. Reproduction in such a harsh environment amid a bloody civil war, he thought, was an evil game. As if on cue, a kid wearing torn clothes emerged from beneath a shade, strode towards a puddle and began drinking from it.


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## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> Does this work?
> 
> *1/ *Barren as its land was, the women of the village were quite fertile, each of them mothering at least three children. *2/ *Jarrod, more than anything, was pained by their selfishness and cruelty reflected in their indifference towards bringing children into such an unforgiving land. *3/* Reproduction in such a harsh environment amid a bloody civil war, he thought, was an evil game. *4/* As if on cue, a kid wearing torn clothes emerged from beneath a shade, strode towards a puddle and began drinking from it.


*1/ *This is going to be a slightly different critique in that the sentence is good, apart from 'quite', which can go. You've mirrored the fertility of the land with the fertility of the women, but you've written it in such a way that it appears the land literally has a direct connection with the women's fertility: 'Barren as its land was'. It just doesn't ring true written like that. I like the mirroring though. Something like *'The land was barren, but the woman of the village were fertile, each of them mothering at least three children'*. In this way you're simply mirroring and not making a direct connection. It's still a nice sentence though. Only that 'quite' leapt out syntax wise. Get rid of as many quibbly words as possible: maybe/almost/nearly/quite and so on. Sometimes you need them for clarity and on odd occasions for stylistic reasons, but here its a 'neither here nor there' usage. *2/* Just a little adjustment here too. The sentence is a little overwrought but I still think it's manageable: *'Jarrod, more than anyone, was pained by the selfishness and cruelty(,) reflected in their indifference towards bringing children into such an unforgiving land.'* The comma makes it a related but separate statement, breaking that run on section up. Still, again, good stuff. *3/* The only thing that differentiates this sentence from sentence 2 is 'civil war'. Consider a slightly different angle. In the meantime, I will adjust to tighten it, even though I think it needs a rethink:* 'Reproduction amid a civil war, he thought, was evil.' 4/ *Another good sentence. That 'As if on cue ...' bothers me though. It feels one sentence too late. I'd consider losing sentence 3 and bring relevant information from into sentence 2:

*The land was barren, but the women of the village were fertile, each of them mothering at least three children. Jarrod, more than anyone, was pained by the selfishness and cruelty, reflected in their indifference towards bringing children into such an unforgiving, war-torn land. As if on cue, a kid wearing torn clothes emerged from beneath a shade, strode towards a puddle and began drinking from it.*

Now the 'as if on cue' has a much stronger connection with the previous sentence. All in all though, really nice stuff. You're writing is looking stronger and stronger. The only thing I would add as an extra note is, keep your eye on those 'was's. How about trying to write this exact paragraph without using 'was' at all ...


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## Matchu

Does this work?

Barren as its land was, the women of the village were quite fertile, each of them mothering at least three children. Jarrod, more than anything, was pained by their selfishness and cruelty reflected in their indifference towards bringing children into such an unforgiving land. Reproduction in such a harsh environment amid a bloody civil war, he thought, was an evil game. As if on cue, a kid wearing torn clothes emerged from beneath a shade, strode towards a puddle and began drinking from it.

Not so much because your point made in the third clause links directly to the first clause.  The 'hand-holding' /the extra words, the explanation,  micro-management / or the laboured prose is unnecessary and will eventually exhaust audience.

There is also a lot of baggage in your original version which suggests, implies an 'agenda' to the reader's eye - when none is meant - usage of the word 'quite,' for example, would be best used in quotes, from a character's mouth.  From a narrator the word creates, projects ignorance, or a prissiness, when actually the issue is only clumsiness.

Barren as its land was, the women of the village mothered many children.

Ah! But it *does* work...works perfectly if you write _Barren as its land was, the women of the village were quite fertile, thought Jarrod. 

[Apols...as my post uses c8000 words to illuminate the tiniest point about word 'quite.']_


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## tonsonenotany

You already got solid advice, but to me “more than anyone/anything” is unnecessary.


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## Kent_Jacobs

A simple question: What image do you take from this? When I use the word curtain, do you automatically see two curtains pulled aside, one to left and one to right, or do you see one curtain pulled to the side? Any thoughts on how this can be clarified?

Angry heat burned behind his eyes, scorched the dream and made it real. The malady still prevailed but the crowd that swam with colour moments before, came into sharp focus, only they were no longer a wall, they were a curtain of bodies pulling aside.​


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## tonsonenotany

I read one curtain pulled to the side, like a room divider or shower curtain.

Perhaps “a curtain parting”?


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## Kent_Jacobs

tonsonenotany said:


> I read one curtain pulled to the side, like a room divider or shower curtain.
> 
> Perhaps “a curtain parting”?


Yeah, that makes sense. I'm going to have to rethink the line though to bring that in smoothly. CHEERS!


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## Matchu

There's a couple of suggestions  - for 'angry heat' write rage.  

Full stop, delete 'only'? 

'Swept aside'?


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## tonsonenotany

only they were no longer a wall, they were a curtain of bodies, parting.


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## Kent_Jacobs

tonsonenotany said:


> only they were no longer a wall, they were a curtain of bodies, parting.


Apart from the fact I wrote 'slowly parting', that's what I went for.


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## Kent_Jacobs

I'd appreciate some thoughts on this. I've written this for now as a placeholder just to remind myself what I want to achieve. What I'm aiming to do is use the scream to describe the scene. If anyone can offer any unique ways of adding more, I'd be a happy chap:

From the cold throat of October came a woman’s scream. A disrespectful wind, laced with a whine of its own, wickedly stole it away. For a beat or two the union jarred, but the wind eventually wrung the life from the scream and dropped it dead amidst the howls and hoots of nocturnal creatures. There the pain lay, unheard, unwitnessed, like an unattended grave.​


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## tonsonenotany

It feels a little overwrought to me BUT that might be OK depending on context. For the last line there are too many uns. How about:

There the pain lay unwitnessed, like a neglected grave.

The first and last lines are your strongest and I’d recommend getting between the two as quickly as possible, unless the personification of the wind is really important (like the wind is a character).

The description of the two sounds pulsing is good and tactile.

Your second sentence is over-adjectived (over-modified?). 

I think of night sounds coming from the trees, so I have trouble with the scream being dropped amidst them.


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## Kent_Jacobs

tonsonenotany said:


> It feels a little overwrought to me BUT that might be OK depending on context. For the last line there are too many uns. How about:
> 
> There the pain lay unwitnessed, like a neglected grave.
> 
> The first and last lines are your strongest and I’d recommend getting between the two as quickly as possible, unless the personification of the wind is really important (like the wind is a character).
> 
> The description of the two sounds pulsing is good and tactile.
> 
> Your second sentence is over-adjectived (over-modified?).
> 
> I think of night sounds coming from the trees, so I have trouble with the scream being dropped amidst them.


Forget the paragraph and how it's written. That's just a placeholder at the moment. What I want is ideas on how I can use the scream (and the wind) to describe the scene. Just little ideas I could incorporate to bring the two together.


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## tonsonenotany

Ah sorry, I am guilty of skimming the explanatory text. Will think a bit on it.


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## Kent_Jacobs

tonsonenotany said:


> Ah sorry, I am guilty of skimming the explanatory text. Will think a bit on it.


Yeah, it's a writing technique. In The Name of The Wind for instance, Patrick Rothfuss uses 'quiet' in his prologue to describe a taverns interior, exterior and the owner.

Listen to it to see what I mean:


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## Taylor

Nice piece!

Basically, I'm getting that the scream for help was not heard because, at that precise moment the wind whistled, so her sound couldn't be discerned from the howls of coyotes, crickets, owls, etc.    I like that you are personifying the wind in this way.

The description mostly includes intent, sound, and some touch with "cold."  I don't see a lot of visuals, like movement, for example, the wind picks up things you can see, like leaves and flying dust.  You also don't have any smells, like dirt, dampness or blood.   I could see more sight descriptions for the nouns as well, how does October look? Is there a change in colours? What type of creatures?  Is the grave unmarked? Stone? Primitive?

Also, ideas for content, are reasons that the wind and scream came together at that moment to create cause and effect. The concepts of murphy's law.  Has this woman been chronically unlucky? Or has someone placed a curse on her? Is this her destiny to be forsaken?  If so, can she alter the course of her fate?


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## Kent_Jacobs

Taylor said:


> Nice piece!
> 
> Basically, I'm getting that the scream for help was not heard because, at that precise moment the wind whistled, so her sound couldn't be discerned from the howls of coyotes, crickets, owls, etc.    I like that you are personifying the wind in this way.
> 
> The description mostly includes intent, sound, and some touch with "cold."  I don't see a lot of visuals, like movement, for example, the wind picks up things you can see, like leaves and flying dust.  You also don't have any smells, like dirt, dampness or blood.   I could see more sight descriptions for the nouns as well, how does October look? Is there a change in colours? What type of creatures?  Is the grave unmarked? Stone? Primitive?
> 
> Also, ideas for content, are reasons that the wind and scream came together at that moment to create cause and effect. The concepts of murphy's law.  Has this woman been chronically unlucky? Or has someone placed a curse on her? Is this her destiny to be forsaken?  If so, can she alter the course of her fate?


Some really nice stuff to consider there. Leaves is something I think I'll use considering it's October. There'd be leaves on the trees and on the floor. I could play with the colour red if I'm careful not to make the connection between red and blood too obvious. One Idea I've got is to have a tree close by full of crows which scatter on hearing the scream, and horses in her paddock, uneased, giving me a little opportunity to describe what type of house she lives in. I could have a more distinct idea of the direction the wind was blowing and perhaps take the reader 'through' the environment with the wind and the scream.

I can't go into too much detail about the woman because we find out a little later in the chapter what that scream was all about. This is exactly what I was after though so THANKS! Another 'technical' problem I'm going to face here is the use of the word 'it'. If I am to take the reader on a journey, I want each separate thing effected to have its own sentence. I could repeat 'The wind' at the beginning of each but that would depend on how long this becomes. It's only going to be one paragraph though, so nothing as in depth as the prologue in Name of The Wind.


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## tonsonenotany

I could see the wind fracturing the scream into shards, each of which is heard momentarily, perhaps by different listeners:  John heard a brief lilt of terror, Amber looked up from her book at the tinkle of something precious lost among the night sounds.

The wind could blow on a campfire or fire pit and cause it to flicker, perhaps add an odd color for a second, or even a face.


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## Kent_Jacobs

tonsonenotany said:


> I could see the wind fracturing the scream into shards, each of which is heard momentarily, perhaps by different listeners:  John heard a brief lilt of terror, Amber looked up from her book at the tinkle of something precious lost among the night sounds.
> 
> *The wind could blow on a campfire or fire pit and cause it to flicker, perhaps add an odd color for a second, or even a face.*


I like that idea. I'm actually putting this idea on hold for a while because I want to move forward. Everything that has been said though is now well and truly cemented into my tiny brain, so it'll find its way in at some point. Cheers!


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## alpacinoutd

Does this work?

Hailey put her hands behind her and leaned back. A cool breeze rolled off the ocean, stroking her sun-soaked body. With a bottle of Burgundy in one hand, and a pocket of Camels in the other, Danny walked towards her. As he watched her wavy blonde hair rippling in the breeze, he wondered if the peace in his life was here to stay. A voice in his said scolded him for overthinking again. _You're here on a gorgeous beach with the perfect girl. Enjoy the now_. 

Feeling his footsteps, Hailey tuned around and smiled. "Finally! What took you so long?"

"I had to go to another hotel to get the Burgundy," he said sitting next to her.

"Always trying too hard to please your woman," she said, a mischievous glint in her eyes. 

"Guilty as charged," he responded.

They finished the bottle as the sun dipped lower over the horizon. Feeling the Burgundy working through him, Danny lifted his hand and caressed Hailey's sand-covered hip. Her skin felt hot to the touch. She nudged him backwards and crawled up on him, placing her lips on his. With the murmur of ocean in their ears, they made drunken love through a Burgundy-induced haze.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> Does this work?
> 
> Hailey put her hands behind her and leaned back. A cool breeze rolled off the ocean, stroking her sun-soaked body. With a bottle of Burgundy in one hand, and a pocket of Camels in the other, Danny walked towards her. As he watched her wavy blonde hair rippling in the breeze, he wondered if the peace in his life was here to stay. *1/ *A voice in his *head* scolded him for overthinking again. _You're here on a gorgeous beach with the perfect girl. Enjoy the now_.


*1/* You don't need that last bit. But I'd question the full sentence too. What is the voice in his head? If it's not literally a voice, then I'd probably assume you've overwritten 'thought'. If it's just a thought then say that. There's nothing gained from over explaining thought, which is ironically 'overthinking again'. _*'You're here on a gorgeous beach with the perfect girl,'*_* he thought. *_*'Enjoy the now.' *_Other than that though, BRAVO! Only one use of was and warranted, making it all feel tight and 'active'. Just see if you can think of a more interesting verb than 'walked'. 


alpacinoutd said:


> Feeling his footsteps, Hailey tu*r*ned around and smiled. "Finally! What took you so long?"


Head hopping. How would Danny know what she was feeling?  


alpacinoutd said:


> "I had to go to another hotel to get the Burgundy," he said sitting next to her.


Personally, I'd want to remove the repeat of 'Burgundy' and replace it with 'wine'. 


alpacinoutd said:


> "Always trying too hard to please your woman," she said, a mischievous glint in her eyes.
> 
> "Guilty as charged," he responded.
> 
> They finished the bottle as the sun dipped lower over the horizon. Feeling the Burgundy working through him, Danny lifted his hand and caressed Hailey's sand-covered hip. Her skin felt hot to the touch. She nudged him backwards and crawled up on him, placing her lips on his. With the murmur of ocean in their ears, they made drunken love through a Burgundy-induced haze.


There's your favourite word again! 'haze'. Just lose that bit. I had very little to do this time.


----------



## alpacinoutd

I apologize if this is a bit long but I want to see if it works:


The sun had dipped below the horizon when Sarah arrived at the bakery. She joined a long queue of hungry people, hoping she'd get at least a loaf. An old man in front of her, turned around and eyed her up, a lascivious smile creasing his gaunt face. _Great! He's about to starve, but he wants to remain a pervert till the end_, Sarah thought. A few minutes later, the old man's attention shifted towards the baker who'd stepped out of the store and shouted, "we're out of bread. Go to another store. Don't waste your time here." An exasperated murmur rose in the crowd and people muttered profanities. Sara sighed and she decided to head to another bakery. The desperate feeling had become a fact of life in the city, and she'd almost grown accustomed to it.

Darkness had settled as she walked towards the other bakery. On her way, she passed a kebab store that catered only to the privileged few. Like most people, Sarah couldn't afford kebab anymore. Greasy smoke drifted in the air, caught by the white light of the streetlamps. Her stomach growled as she remembered the last time she'd eaten meat. Images from the good days came to her. She was at her favorite place in the city, her brother's house, and they had kebab after an afternoon of partying. A few days later, regime thugs abducted her brother. His absence made the ensuing months even more difficult as the country's economy collapsed and people's lives fell apart. She tried to shove down the memories, trudging on.

She turned and stepped in a dark alley, huddling herself. It gave her the creeps to go through the garbage-strewn alley but she had no choice. A noise interrupted her thoughts. It came from a large trash can on the curb. She thought it might be a rat but a teenage boy climbed out of the can, biting at a bad apple he'd found in there. He walked past Sara, completely oblivious to her.

In the warm, windless night, Sara walked through the alley in her stiffing hijab. A faint rumble of a car engine came from distance, growing louder. Sarah quickened her steps as the thunder of the engine became louder. Suddenly, a harsh light illuminated her surroundings, casting her shadow on the asphalt. Terror seized every muscle in her body and her breathing became shallow as her stomach flipped over. She slowly turned around, and squinted against the headlights of a huge SUV. The tires were covered in dirt and appeared almost white in the dark, contrasting with the black car. She made out a big man at the wheel and let out a frightened yelp when he slid out of the car, leaving the engine and the headlights on. "I have a message from your brother," he yelled over the the roar of the car.


----------



## Theglasshouse

Here's something I wrote which is very brief on my observation of a room in my house. I know I was told to write flash. However, I used the techniques explained in the observation thread. I organized this spatially and physically (where the character is located in the place and time). Take your time especially if busy. Thank you. (this may be used in a flash but I dictated this and it was a bit exhausting (I suspect since my mood shifts a few times). I will take some more time to finish if I write in a notebook and dictate, but I want to publish so I will do anything)

He furnished the terrace with his collections from his many journeys outside the house. Inside the terrace he relaxed on the sofa. The sofa he sat on people had made from a mahogany tree. These were attractive to the human eye, as the upholstery that decorated the room made it look colorful. Embroidered by skillful hands, the cloth people had sown and stitched together the shapes of the seeds, petals, of the flowers in the gardens. On top of the table close to him was this mosaic multi-colored salamander he had bought in Spain. The rest of the ornaments on top of the stiff table consisted of a glass Lily and an antique box that encased a candle.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> I apologize if this is a bit long but I want to see if it works:
> 
> 
> The sun had dipped below the horizon when Sarah arrived at the bakery. She joined a long queue of hungry people, hoping she'd get at least a loaf. An old man in front of her, turned around and eyed her up, a lascivious smile creasing his gaunt face. _Great! He's about to starve, but he wants to remain a pervert till the end_, Sarah thought. A few minutes later, the old man's attention shifted towards the baker who'd stepped out of the store and shouted, "we're out of bread. Go to another store. Don't waste your time here." An exasperated murmur rose in the crowd and people muttered profanities. Sara sighed and she decided to head to another bakery. The desperate feeling had become a fact of life in the city, and she'd almost grown accustomed to it.


Again, that absence of 'was' is making this pop. You don't need the exclamation mark after 'great'. Just make a point of never using them at all. Split the thought up instead to put emphasis on 'great': _*Great,' *_*Sarah thought.*_* 'He's about to starve, but wants to remain a pervert till the end'*_ 'towards' is a definite direction and feels slightly odd there. I'd change that to 'to'. If Sarah decided to 'head to another bakery' then that suggests there are MANY bakeries in the area, therefore, by default, making it appear as if bread isn't really at that much of a premium. I'd rethink that because she 'hoped' she'd get a loaf. Perhaps mention the only other bakery was 'name of it' and there may be a chance she'd pick some bread up there. Whilst this is far better written and has more punch, it needs to be more. I'm not in that shop, experiencing that shop, experiencing the old man and feeling despondent. There's at least a whole page here crammed into one paragraph. Act it out. Put us in Sarah's shoes and let us experience the scene. Remember a paragraph is a separate moment. Look at how many separate moments you have here and break them up into paragraphs, adding in detail and movement to 'put us there'. Sight/sound/smell/touch/taste. This bakery is the perfect opportunity to use at least four of those. You could even have her imagining what the bread would taste like to make the reader feel as hungry as Sarah. 


alpacinoutd said:


> Darkness had settled as she walked towards the other bakery. On her way, she passed a kebab store that catered only to the privileged few. Like most people, Sarah couldn't afford kebab anymore. Greasy smoke drifted in the air, caught by the white light of the streetlamps. *[new paragraph]* Her stomach growled as she remembered the last time she'd eaten meat. Images from the good days came to her. She was at her favorite place in the city, her brother's house, and they had kebab after an afternoon of partying. *[new paragraph]* A few days later, regime thugs abducted her brother. His absence made the ensuing months even more difficult as the country's economy collapsed and people's lives fell apart. She tried to shove down the memories, trudging on.


There's very little here to critique. It's tight and to the point. I'd perhaps make the 'she was at her ...' a separate paragraph. You've dedicated but one sentence to her 'fond' memories of her brother and then immediately switched to his abduction. Make that memory a mini scene, giving the abduction more punch. And make 'A few days later ...' another new paragraph.


alpacinoutd said:


> She turned and stepped *into* a dark alley and huddled herself. *1/* It gave her the creeps to go through the garbage-strewn alley but she had no choice. *2/* A noise interrupted her thoughts. It came from a large trash can on the curb. She thought it might be a rat but a teenage boy climbed out of the can, biting at a bad apple he'd found in there. He walked past Sara, completely oblivious to her.


*1/ *I'm not keen on the word 'creeps'. It's not strong enough to project fear, which I'd assume is what you'd want. Surely in this world you're creating, with all the potential threats, she'd be feeling more than 'the creeps'. *2/* What thoughts? 


alpacinoutd said:


> In the warm, windless night, Sara walked through the alley in her stiffing *(stifling?)* hijab. *1/* A faint rumble of a car engine came from distance, growing louder. *1/ *Sarah quickened her steps as the thunder of the engine became louder. Suddenly, a harsh light illuminated her surroundings, casting her shadow on the asphalt. *2/* Terror seized every muscle in her body and she and her breathing became shallow as her stomach flipped over. She slowly turned around, and squinted against the headlights of a huge SUV. The tires were covered in dirt and appeared almost white in the dark, contrasting with the black car. *3/* She made out a big man at the wheel and let out a frightened yelp when he slid out of the car, leaving the engine and the headlights on. "I have a message from your brother," he yelled over the the roar of the car.


*1/* You've repeated 'louder' and 'engine': In this case, you're talking about sound, a sound that's been identified as that of a car, so it would be 'the faint' and not 'a faint'. If it was a parked car then it would be 'A car was parked' but then when she approaches it and examines it, it would be 'the car was empty'. *'The faint sound of a car came from distance. Sarah quickened her step as the thunder of the engine grew louder.' 2/ *This is a bit messy. The first part is slightly overwritten and 'she and her' is unnecessary. 'she and her' are the same person: *'Terror seized her, and her breathing became shallow as her stomach flipped over.' 3/ *He appears to have leapt from the car while it was still moving. Is there many other interpretations of 'yelp' other than 'frightened'? You can lose that.


----------



## tonsonenotany

alpacinoutd said:


> An old man in front of her, turned around and eyed her up, a lascivious smile creasing his gaunt face.


Not much to add to the above, but the first comma here is unnecessary and confusing. It makes me think that a description, not an action, is about to follow. e.g. An old man in front of her, his face creased by a lascivious grin, turned around to eye her up. You could either change to something like that, or more simply just drop the first comma in your sentence.


----------



## tonsonenotany

Theglasshouse said:


> He furnished the terrace with his collections from his many journeys outside the house


“Outside the house” sounds a bit weird to my ear. The fact that it’s mentioned makes me think that it is unusual in some way to leave the house. Because leaving the house for most people in most times is typical, and journeys typically occur outside the house. So this could be meaningful in the context of a story, for example about a person who no longer leaves the house. But as-is it doesn’t sound quite right.

I also want to know more about these journeys!


Theglasshouse said:


> Inside the terrace he relaxed on the sofa


In the previous sentence you are using the past tense to describe an event that occurred over a long period of time, suggesting that the main body of the story will occur in the present. Here, the past tense indicates a specific action happening at a specific time in the past. The implication is that the story is being told in the past tense, as most are. The shift is jarring. One way to fix this is to say “he had furnished the terrace “.


Theglasshouse said:


> The sofa he sat on people had made from a mahogany tree


This is awkwardly worded. Try “The sofa had been made from a mahogany tree”.


Theglasshouse said:


> These were attractive to the human eye, as the upholstery that decorated the room made it look colorful


What does “these” refer to? The last object mentioned was the sofa, which is singular.


Overall this is a big improvement! I am being detailed in my criticism because it is a short piece. But this is cogent and has a sense of purpose. If you want to, try extending it. Use an object as a jumping-off point for a story. Discuss its history. Or have something happen in the room.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Theglasshouse said:


> *1/* He furnished the terrace with his collections from his many journeys outside the house. *2/* Inside the terrace he relaxed on the sofa. *3/ * The sofa he sat on people had made from a mahogany tree. *4/* These were attractive to the human eye, as the upholstery that decorated the room made it look colorful. *5/* Embroidered by skillful hands, the cloth people had sown and stitched together the shapes of the seeds, petals, of the flowers in the gardens. On top of the table close* next *to him was this *a* mosaic multi-colored salamander he had bought in Spain. *6/* The rest of the ornaments on top of the stiff table consisted of a glass Lily and an antique box that encased a candle.


*1/* You've used 'terrace' which is a paved area next to a building. What you want is 'terraced house'. Where else would those 'journeys' take place? It's a bit like saying 'it's raining outside', which whilst acceptable colloquially, doesn't cut it for prose. *2/* Repeated word. Keep your eye on those. If you see you've repeated a word try to get rid of the repeat. *'He relaxed on the sofa.'* We know he's in the house. I would imagine you've felt the need to add this in because you ended the last sentence with 'outside the house'. *3/* Again that habit you've got of repeating information. What you've basically done here is take up a whole sentence just to let the reader know the sofa was made of mahogany. Adjectives are often useful: *'He relaxed on the mahogany sofa'*. Just to point out, you don't need to add 'he sat on'. That's again repeated information. We know he 'relaxed on the sofa'. That sentence is a quick fix though. I'd probably have him relaxing on the sofa, touching the mahogany and admiring the quality. *4/* You've mentioned ONE thing and you're using 'these'. Consider 'attractive' which is generally associated with sight. You don't need 'to the human eye'. The room was decorated with upholstery? If you take the time to describe a few things, you wouldn't need that awkward, misplaced 'look colourful'. I can't really offer a quick fix here without completely rewriting and adding in my own detail. *5/* Another habit you have is to ascribe something to the people who made it rather than simply letting it stand as an object alone. You don't need to do that. I'm not sure what exactly this sentence is referring to. You've only mentioned a mahogany sofa, making it almost impossible for me to rewrite this and still start with 'Embroidered ...'. You wouldn't sow stitches together, you'd use stitches to sow material together or create decorative inlays. Have 'the people' sown these inlays in based on the flowers in your protagonist's garden? Or are they based on the flowers in 'the people's' garden? Or, which is more likely, have you again felt the need to tell the reader exactly where something is commonly found. In this case garden. You don't need to do that. This and removing repeats is something you need to concentrate on. You don't need to say 'He put the groceries he'd bought from the shop down on the sofa'. You just need to say 'He put the groceries down on the sofa'. *6/* Remember what I keep saying about an assumed state? Here you're suggesting you can have flexible wood. Largely speaking all wood is 'stiff'. 

You still need to concentrate on repeated words and ideas, as well as lose that habit of telling the reader where something is or came from. I do get the sense though that you're nudging in the right direction.


----------



## Theglasshouse

tonsonenotany said:


> “Outside the house” sounds a bit weird to my ear. The fact that it’s mentioned makes me think that it is unusual in some way to leave the house. Because leaving the house for most people in most times is typical, and journeys typically occur outside the house. So this could be meaningful in the context of a story, for example about a person who no longer leaves the house. But as-is it doesn’t sound quite right.
> 
> I also want to know more about these journeys!
> 
> In the previous sentence you are using the past tense to describe an event that occurred over a long period of time, suggesting that the main body of the story will occur in the present. Here, the past tense indicates a specific action happening at a specific time in the past. The implication is that the story is being told in the past tense, as most are. The shift is jarring. One way to fix this is to say “he had furnished the terrace “.
> 
> This is awkwardly worded. Try “The sofa had been made from a mahogany tree”.
> 
> What does “these” refer to? The last object mentioned was the sofa, which is singular.
> 
> 
> Overall this is a big improvement! I am being detailed in my criticism because it is a short piece. But this is cogent and has a sense of purpose. If you want to, try extending it. Use an object as a jumping-off point for a story. Discuss its history. Or have something happen in the room.


Thanks @tonsonenotany: I think using "had" is past perfect, but I do understand some writers consider it amateurish to use (they think it is passive voice). I will settle for using it with a piece of advice I read (the verb and it's action must be pictured by the reader. I will use a thesaurus when possible- got this explanation from a book on style). Which is why I previously resisted using it in the paragraph multiple times, but I now understand I must get rid of some of these old misconceived ideas of mine. I agree the tense must be the same since you said it shifts. Agreed with the wrongful use of the word "these." I was referring to the sofa in the previous sentence. Thank you for your thoughts. I also liked your suggestions on where I could take the story next based on the setting plot-wise. It does give me more ideas to think about. I appreciated your feedback. Now I will practice with this excerpt and turn it into a small flash. However, during the time I write this I will order two more prose books. I think a book on how to write prose helped me, but I need to find out how to fix some of these issues I have.


TheMightyAz said:


> *1/* You've used 'terrace' which is a paved area next to a building. What you want is 'terraced house'. Where else would those 'journeys' take place? It's a bit like saying 'it's raining outside', which whilst acceptable colloquially, doesn't cut it for prose. *2/* Repeated word. Keep your eye on those. If you see you've repeated a word try to get rid of the repeat. *'He relaxed on the sofa.'* We know he's in the house. I would imagine you've felt the need to add this in because you ended the last sentence with 'outside the house'. *3/* Again that habit you've got of repeating information. What you've basically done here is take up a whole sentence just to let the reader know the sofa was made of mahogany. Adjectives are often useful: *'He relaxed on the mahogany sofa'*. Just to point out, you don't need to add 'he sat on'. That's again repeated information. We know he 'relaxed on the sofa'. That sentence is a quick fix though. I'd probably have him relaxing on the sofa, touching the mahogany and admiring the quality. *4/* You've mentioned ONE thing and you're using 'these'. Consider 'attractive' which is generally associated with sight. You don't need 'to the human eye'. The room was decorated with upholstery? If you take the time to describe a few things, you wouldn't need that awkward, misplaced 'look colourful'. I can't really offer a quick fix here without completely rewriting and adding in my own detail. *5/* Another habit you have is to ascribe something to the people who made it rather than simply letting it stand as an object alone. You don't need to do that. I'm not sure what exactly this sentence is referring to. You've only mentioned a mahogany sofa, making it almost impossible for me to rewrite this and still start with 'Embroidered ...'. You wouldn't sow stitches together, you'd use stitches to sow material together or create decorative inlays. Have 'the people' sown these inlays in based on the flowers in your protagonist's garden? Or are they based on the flowers in 'the people's' garden? Or, which is more likely, have you again felt the need to tell the reader exactly where something is commonly found. In this case garden. You don't need to do that. This and removing repeats is something you need to concentrate on. You don't need to say 'He put the groceries he'd bought from the shop down on the sofa'. You just need to say 'He put the groceries down on the sofa'. *6/* Remember what I keep saying about an assumed state? Here you're suggesting you can have flexible wood. Largely speaking all wood is 'stiff'.
> 
> You still need to concentrate on repeated words and ideas, as well as lose that habit of telling the reader where something is or came from. I do get the sense though that you're nudging in the right direction.


I knew you were going to mention that terrace was repeated twice. I looked in the dictionary. But I couldn't find a replacement.
1)
What is the real meaning of terrace?
(Entry 1 of 2) 1a : *a relatively level paved or planted area adjoining a building*. b : a colonnaded porch or promenade. c : a flat roof or open platform.

I guess I will use a better thesaurus next time. I used the internet and couldn't find a replacement. I have a copy of Roget's thesaurus I can use. I'll accept the explanation you provided on terrace house. Did you know this word or did you search on a website? I want to learn how you found a replacement for the word if I can learn something from that.
2)
On the habit of repetition. I understand your implying that sat repeats relaxed. I do get and understand that relaxed is similar enough to sat. It is so nuanced that I didn't notice it was repetition.
3)

Ok I will use adjectives more often instead of saying something is made of this. I accept that mahogany sofa is a better choice.

4) yes "these" was something I was considering eliminating after this draft. I misused this. There are two sofas in the room. But I neglected to mention this.
5)  You've only mentioned a mahogany sofa, making it almost impossible for me to rewrite this and still start with 'Embroidered ...'. You wouldn't sow stitches together, you'd use stitches to sow material together or create decorative inlays.
I agree but couldn't find the word for decorative inlays. I didn't know the words that I could use to describe the clothed pillows or cushions.
6) I wanted to add stiff to make it more artistic a description but now I see it is an assumed state and is superfluous.

Thanks for saying I am nudging in the right direction. However, I decided to this time to reply point by point the most important statements you made to try to remember the pointers you are giving me. The overall idea is the repetition and ideas need work. They need to be detected and eliminated. Where I could not find a word maybe I should have used a better thesaurus.

I will refer to this post when I write the next paragraphs.

Thanks the @TheMightyAz. I appreciate your generous critique as well as @tonsonenotany  for his critique and feedback on the prose segment.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Theglasshouse said:


> Thanks @tonsonenotany: I think using "had" is past perfect, but I do understand some writers consider it amateurish to use (they think it is passive voice). I will settle for using it with a piece of advice I read (the verb and it's action must be pictured by the reader. I will use a thesaurus when possible- got this explanation from a book on style). Which is why I previously resisted using it in the paragraph multiple times, but I now understand I must get rid of some of these old misconceived ideas of mine. I agree the tense must be the same since you said it shifts. Agreed with the wrongful use of the word "these." I was referring to the sofa in the previous sentence. Thank you for your thoughts. I also liked your suggestions on where I could take the story next based on the setting plot-wise. It does give me more ideas to think about. I appreciated your feedback. Now I will practice with this excerpt and turn it into a small flash. However, during the time I write this I will order two more prose books. I think a book on how to write prose helped me, but I need to find out how to fix some of these issues I have.
> 
> I knew you were going to mention that terrace was repeated twice. I looked in the dictionary. But I couldn't find a replacement.
> 1)
> What is the real meaning of terrace?
> (Entry 1 of 2) 1a : *a relatively level paved or planted area adjoining a building*. b : a colonnaded porch or promenade. c : a flat roof or open platform.
> 
> I guess I will use a better thesaurus next time. I used the internet and couldn't find a replacement. I have a copy of Roget's thesaurus I can use. I'll accept the explanation you provided on terrace house. Did you know this word or did you search on a website? I want to learn how you found a replacement for the word if I can learn something from that.
> 2)
> On the habit of repetition. I understand your implying that sat repeats relaxed. I do get and understand that relaxed is similar enough to sat. It is so nuanced that I didn't notice it was repetition.
> 3)
> 
> Ok I will use adjectives more often instead of saying something is made of this. I accept that mahogany sofa is a better choice.
> 
> 4) yes "these" was something I was considering eliminating after this draft. I misused this. There are two sofas in the room. But I neglected to mention this.
> 5)  You've only mentioned a mahogany sofa, making it almost impossible for me to rewrite this and still start with 'Embroidered ...'. You wouldn't sow stitches together, you'd use stitches to sow material together or create decorative inlays.
> I agree but couldn't find the word for decorative inlays. I didn't know the words that I could use to describe the clothed pillows or cushions.
> 6) I wanted to add stiff to make it more artistic a description but now I see it is an assumed state and is superfluous.
> 
> Thanks for saying I am nudging in the right direction. However, I decided to this time to reply point by point the most important statements you made to try to remember the pointers you are giving me. The overall idea is the repetition and ideas need work. They need to be detected and eliminated. Where I could not find a word maybe I should have used a better thesaurus.
> 
> I will refer to this post when I write the next paragraphs.
> 
> Thanks the @TheMightyAz. I appreciate your generous critique as well as @tonsonenotany  for his critique and feedback on the prose segment.


I grew up in a terraced house. 

Get yourself a copy of this book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B005E7398E/

Here's how it breaks things down. Check this out for a closer look before buying: https://www.morgansrarebooks.com/products/reader-s-digest-reverse-dictionary






Don't buy it new!

And check out this site too: https://www.wordhippo.com/


----------



## tonsonenotany

By the way, while stiff is not the right adjective for the table, it is fine for a chair or couch. It would be a synonym for uncomfortable. If you had a particular quality of the table in mind, try again to describe it! Good description takes work. If you can tell us what you were trying to communicate about the table, we can help you find the right word! Is it stiff in the sense of being awkward? Awkwardly placed or awkwardly shaped? Are the drawers stiff to open? Is it hard to move? Very creaky? The internal concepts and descriptors we have in our minds often do not line up perfectly with common usage, and that’s totally OK. Practice translating between the word that naturally denotes a certain quality to you, and the description that works in fiction!


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## Theglasshouse

@TheMightyAz and @tonsonenotany
I have a Bernstein's reverse dictionary 2nd edition I bought some time ago. I followed the link. Do you mean reverse dictionary reader's digest? Or is there a bernstein's reverse dictionary that is a reader's digest? Thanks. All I could find was a reader's digest illustrated edition. I could not find terrace house in the 2nd edition. I did however find it in wikipedia which is a click away on the Mac. I also used power thesaurus (website) to rewrite this paragraph.

He had furnished his terrace house with items of his hoard. He rested on the mahogany sofa. The illustration depicted on the pillows reminded of fire, and this consisted of butter flowers pictured on the cloth of the upholstery. People had embroidered decorative inlays off the flowers, seeds, and petals on the sofa’s covers. On top of the tabletop close to him shined this mosaic multi-colored salamander which he had bought in Spain. The adornments he ammassed consisted of a glass lily pad and an antique container and glass display box that masked a candle.

I rewrote it and inserted some new additions after the feedback both of you gave me. Is this an improvement? I used a thesaurus for better word choices. I assume it reads better. I also placed the subject or noun in this case in the very beginning of the sentence. I believe in doing the homework assignment which I think is a rewrite. I hope this is improved.

Btw, I am planning to see the rest of those videos you recommended themightyaz. I hope to understand some of your methods of working and revising prose. Do you remember the title of that thread? I think I can try to find it.

I apologize if this is a lot of work. But after this I won't post hopefully for a while because I think you both need some rest from  reading the snippets from my work.


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## tonsonenotany

Some improvements here. Your sentence structure is better but some word choices are off. But the nuances of different words are hard to learn!



Theglasshouse said:


> He had furnished his terrace house with items of his hoard.


Items “from his hoard”.


Theglasshouse said:


> He rested on the mahogany sofa.


Nice direct line.


Theglasshouse said:


> The illustration depicted on the pillows reminded of fire, and this consisted of butter flowers pictured on the cloth of the upholstery. People had embroidered decorative


This sentence is needlessly complex. You are putting in words like upholstery and cloth when. those are already implied by the idea of a pillow. Try this:

The pillow was decorated with butter flowers. They reminded him of fire.

I also have trouble with butter flowers being like fire.


Theglasshouse said:


> People had embroidered decorative inlays off the flowers, seeds, and petals on the sofa’s covers.


Remember what we talked about last time with mentioning the people who created these objects? This is not usually done unless you have something specific to say about the craftsman. And even then, you’d say “the craftsman had embroidered “, not “people”.


Theglasshouse said:


> The adornments he ammassed consisted of a glass lily pad and an antique container and glass display box that masked a candle.


I don’t think that you need to mention the fact that they were amassed by the speaker. That is communicated by “hoard” earlier. Amassed would only make sense if you were going to launch into a story about HOW the items were amassed.

Not sure what “masked a candle “ means. Do you mean hid?


----------



## Theglasshouse

tonsonenotany said:


> Some improvements here. Your sentence structure is better but some word choices are off. But the nuances of different words are hard to learn!
> 
> 
> Items “from his hoard”.
> 
> Nice direct line.
> 
> This sentence is needlessly complex. You are putting in words like upholstery and cloth when. those are already implied by the idea of a pillow. Try this:
> 
> The pillow was decorated with butter flowers. They reminded him of fire.
> 
> I also have trouble with butter flowers being like fire.
> 
> Remember what we talked about last time with mentioning the people who created these objects? This is not usually done unless you have something specific to say about the craftsman. And even then, you’d say “the craftsman had embroidered “, not “people”.
> 
> I don’t think that you need to mention the fact that they were amassed by the speaker. That is communicated by “hoard” earlier. Amassed would only make sense if you were going to launch into a story about HOW the items were amassed.
> 
> Not sure what “masked a candle “ means. Do you mean hid?


Thank you. I think I'll watch some videos on tips that mention redundancy. Seems as if the thesaurus made me choose words that were tricky to use. Also, I tend to use words such as "from" wrongly.  I get it could be reduced to pillow only. Again, I'll need to search everywhere on how to avoid redundancy. I am glad the sentence structure improved. I am trying to pay attention here to what you both were trying to teach.

I agree now that you pointed out the line about the fire flowers that since the comparison doesn't make sense that I should delete it.

Masked according to the power thesaurus refers to hidden. But I will take the suggestion. I could simply use hid.

Ok its noted that amassed can't be used. I was trying to look for a vibrant replacement. I did read the suggestions and it seems as if craftsman is the better choice, but I didn't think of it in the process of rewriting.

Yes, correct on the amassing verb mistake. I wish I could tell them apart because it seems correct for me.

Thanks @tonsonenotany. Currently I am planning to purchase a book which Shaelin Bishop recommends in her video. The mightyaz would recommend her videos. (Revision: A Creative Approach to Writing and Rewriting Fiction) She makes videos for Reedsy.

Generally I think nouns are a good idea to replace if more specific and concrete. However, I am starting to think for verbs and adjectives I will need to be more careful.

Thanks a lot.


----------



## tonsonenotany

In my personal opinion, a thesaurus is very difficult to use because words often are not exact synonyms for each other. I would suggest writing as comes naturally to you, using simple, common words. Then look for redundant uses when you re-read. You can also ask us what a good synonym might be. Unfortunately there are many potential synonyms and they each lend a unique flavor, which affects the tone significantly.


----------



## tonsonenotany

To be clear, amassed is not grammatically or even tonally incorrect. It’s more that it adds nothing to the sentence. We already know the objects were amassed (or collected, or gathered, etc). There is no need to qualify the adornments in this way because the reader assumes at this point that they are his, and come from the hoard mentioned earlier. You would only need to clarify if this was NOT the case, e.g. of the adornments his wife had amassed, etc. 

When you add a word or phrase that has no purpose it leads the reader (who is hungry for meaning and revelation) to interpret it in a light you did not intend. If I said, hey I’m bringing over a pack of totally clean hot dogs, you’d wonder why I felt the need to qualify that, and assume some deception on my part. 

That said, different readers interpret these clues in different ways. If this was a larger passage I might not have noticed it.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Theglasshouse said:


> @TheMightyAz and @tonsonenotany
> I have a Bernstein's reverse dictionary 2nd edition I bought some time ago. I followed the link. Do you mean reverse dictionary reader's digest? Or is there a bernstein's reverse dictionary that is a reader's digest? Thanks. All I could find was a reader's digest illustrated edition. I could not find terrace house in the 2nd edition. I did however find it in wikipedia which is a click away on the Mac. I also used power thesaurus (website) to rewrite this paragraph.


Readers Digest version. It's the best reverse dictionary out there with lots of lists and illustrations.


Theglasshouse said:


> *1/* He had furnished his terrace house with items of his hoard. He rested on the mahogany sofa. *2/* The illustration depicted on the pillows reminded of fire, and this consisted of butter flowers pictured on the cloth of the upholstery. *3/* People had embroidered decorative inlays off the flowers, seeds, and petals on the sofa’s covers. *4/* On top of the tabletop close to him shined this mosaic multi-colored salamander which he had bought in Spain. *5/* The adornments he ammassed consisted of a glass lily pad and an antique container and glass display box that masked a candle.


*1/* One of the main problems I have when critiquing your work is that it has unusual syntax. That's not to say you shouldn't pursue that. It could well lead to a tight and unique style and I don't want to tamper with that too much. This sentence is nicely compact and straightforward, except for that last bit. Once again you've repeated something and used that habit of 'attributing' something to someone or something. Can you see that? Sometimes, because of the unique way you construct sentences, you send yourself down blind alleys but instead of recognising you've done that and rewrite the blind alley out, you opt to awkwardly try and work with it. Regardless:* 'His terraced house was furnished with items he'd horded.' *or* 'He'd furnished his terraced house with items from his hoard'. *Not perfect and look, I've even added a 'was' (OH THE SHAME ...) *2/* 'The illustration depicted on the pillow'. What pillow? You've used 'the' but haven't mentioned it before. Are we suddenly in the bedroom? Or, do you mean cushions? I'm going to assume you meant cushions. Sometimes you're a little too technical which leads to overwriting. Here for instance you've used 'The illustration depicted on the pillow' and 'consisted of' and 'cloth of the upholstery'. (notice again there your habit of attributing) If we know it's a cushion, we do not need to be reminded the cushion is made of cloth. I think I've discovered the cause of one of your main bad habits. You start at 'a' and then apply the same logic for everything as you would for a sequence of events: 'he ran, jumped over the fence, dashed through the gate, and disappeared into the night'. But this isn't a sequence of events, it's a single sentence describing one particular thing, which then requires slightly different thinking. It's a single image/idea, not a sequence of information describing the image. I'm not keen on the fire section. I don't see the connection between fire and the flower. If you want to explore something like that metaphorically, you'll need to build that out far more to justify the comparison: *'The illustrations stitched into the cushions depicted butter flowers.' 3/ *There's that attributing again. This sentence tells us nothing more than sentence 2. *4/* 'Close to him'. See that attributing again? It isn't terribly wrong in this instance. I just wanted you to see how often you do it. Where is a tabletop? It's the top of the table, yes? *'On a table-top close by, shone a mosaic multi-colored salamander, which he had bought in Spain.' 5/ *There's that attributing again. 'adornments he had amassed'. Once you've established something exists and it's in the same place/world as the protag, you don't have to keep reminding the reader it's connected in some way with the protag. It's enough to describe it exists. Just describe the objects:* 'Amongst the many things he'd collected, a glass lily, an antique container and a glass display box containing a candle, were some of his favourites.' *


Theglasshouse said:


> I rewrote it and inserted some new additions after the feedback both of you gave me. Is this an improvement? I used a thesaurus for better word choices. I assume it reads better. I also placed the subject or noun in this case in the very beginning of the sentence. I believe in doing the homework assignment which I think is a rewrite. I hope this is improved.
> 
> Btw, I am planning to see the rest of those videos you recommended themightyaz. I hope to understand some of your methods of working and revising prose. Do you remember the title of that thread? I think I can try to find it.


I can't honestly remember, man. 


Theglasshouse said:


> I apologize if this is a lot of work. But after this I won't post hopefully for a while because I think you both need some rest from  reading the snippets from my work.


----------



## Theglasshouse

Thanks a lot for the attribution explanation. I will try to avoid it. I will return much later since I think I have been given plenty of help. I think I was referring to the Shaolin Bishop videos. I will purchase the reverse dictionary. But anyways thanks for the help. I am searching for answers to write with clarity foremost. I appreciate your help. I will try what I was saying. If you feel that you can recommend a resource please do so if you want to. My brother looked at the first sample and its puzzling he couldn't detect any mistakes. But to be on the same page I need to read some of the same things or see YouTube videos if that really helped. Not to mention my brother did go to the university in the United States. I don't know what it is, but I will continue to look for answers.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Theglasshouse said:


> Thanks a lot for the attribution explanation. I will try to avoid it. I will return much later since I think I have been given plenty of help. I think I was referring to the Shaolin Bishop videos. I will purchase the reverse dictionary. But anyways thanks for the help. I am searching for answers to write with clarity foremost. I appreciate your help. I will try what I was saying. If you feel that you can recommend a resource please do so if you want to. My brother looked at the first sample and its puzzling he couldn't detect any mistakes. But to be on the same page I need to read some of the same things or see YouTube videos if that really helped. Not to mention my brother did go to the university in the United States. *I don't know what it is, but I will continue to look for answers.*


Good for you, man. Keep on trucking. But ... oh how I labour this point ... look no further than your reply.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs




----------



## Louanne Learning

alpacinoutd said:


> Does this work?
> 
> Barren as its land was, the women of the village were quite fertile, each of them mothering at least three children. Jarrod, more than anything, was pained by their selfishness and cruelty reflected in their indifference towards bringing children into such an unforgiving land. Reproduction in such a harsh environment amid a bloody civil war, he thought, was an evil game. As if on cue, a kid wearing torn clothes emerged from beneath a shade, strode towards a puddle and began drinking from it.


It's a little wordy.

They were fertile women in a barren land, three or four offspring the norm. Jarrod was pained by their selfishness. It was cruel to bring children into this harsh, unforgiving environment, amid a bloody civil war. He watched a kid in rags emerge from the shade and drink from a puddle.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

It's always strange when I hear a published author talk about something I aim for but never had a word to describe it. Although I really should have considered the obvious description she uses. 'Defamiliarize' is perfect:


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Listen to these and take it in. These are timestamped so don't wind it back:


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

I don't agree with the example at the end but this is worth a listen. 

'Walnut frowned and shook his head' versus 'Walnut looked thoughtful'

Whilst the first sentence is definitely better because it's showing, I wouldn't say that 'frowned and shook his head' portrays thoughtfulness. My example would have been:

Walnut frowned and shook his head' versus 'Walnut looked doubtful', which fits much better with that body language.


----------



## Chrysandra1791

Meeting Kenji For The First Time

Seven hours transpired. The hallways were empty, stripped bare of any person in sight. The hall lights shined bright, giving the walls and floors a refined, clean, glossy look. The shatterproof glass panel and front door of Edythe's room were made of a more grainy, frosted glass texture with a faint, geographical image of the Earth's map designed on it.

Edythe lied down on her back facing the bedroom ceiling, with tears welling up in her black eyes, mucus trickling from her bruised nose instead of blood and saliva trickling from the right side of her mouth instead of blood. The blindingly bright ceiling lights helped make her face still recognizable in spite of all of the physical trauma it suffered through fighting multitudes of Japanese security guards and soldiers. Her long, smooth, soft, auburn brown locks spread across the upper half of the bed. As she stared straight into the light bulbs, Edythe couldn't help but breathe a huge sigh of frustration as her thoughts wandered off to her home life before these life-altering, traumatic turn of events.

New York City, New York. March 16, 2023. 8:30 a.m. The International University of New York City.

"....And that is why Type 1 Diabetes is known as an autoimmune disease. An autoimmune disease is an illness that targets what it believes to be a foreign invader that has entered the body. Much like an allergic reaction, it is an overreaction of the immune system to what is really a harmless substance. Unlike an allergic reaction, it isn't a foreign substance being targeted, but the body's own natural organisms, and in this case, its insulin.”


----------



## Jeko

> The hallways were empty, stripped bare of any person in sight.


The latter half of this states that the hallways were empty. "The hallways had been stripped bare of any person in sight."


> The hall lights shined bright, giving the walls and floors a refined, clean, glossy look.


'refined, clean, glossy' belabours the point that they are shiny.


> Edythe lied down on her back facing the bedroom ceiling


We know she is facing the ceiling if she is lying down on her back.

There's some clunky repetition and description in what follows. 'Instead of blood' is repeated twice in a sentence. 'trauma' is repeated and is a pretty opaque term here, it would help to unpack it. There's a bit of whiplash when you go from talking about how beaten up she is into her lovely and perfect her hair is; if the two are supposed to juxtapose each other, maybe consider expanding on it. Three out of the four sentences of the second paragraph begin with the reiteration that she is staring up at the ceiling.

'Huge' doesn't feel like good word choice for her 'sigh of frustration'. You could show the reader that extent of frustration instead, go into the character's headspace a bit. Would give us a voice for this ceiling-addicted character.



> off to her home life before these life-altering, traumatic turn of events


'Life' is repeated, sounds clunky. 'this' instead of 'these'. "off to her life at home before this traumatic turn of events".

This is what feels like it needs unpacking, though. 'turn of events' is an extreme degree of summary for the end of a scene that hasn't established any action beyond the idea of the character having been in action. Maybe give the reader something to latch onto from this character's recent past, something concrete and interesting that gets them 'in' as a character, before jumping into their life before the events of the present.

It feels like you're underdescribing the important things of the story for the sake of some attempt at suspense, while overdescribing the less important things. I would recommend that you give the reader more matter to work with when it comes to this character, rather than statements of summary that race past the questions of their current state.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Chrysandra1791 said:


> Meeting Kenji For The First Time


Is this a chapter title?


Chrysandra1791 said:


> *1/* Seven hours transpired. *2/* The hallways were empty, stripped bare of any person in sight.* 3/ *The hall lights shined bright, giving the walls and floors a refined, clean, glossy look. *4/* The shatterproof glass panel and front door of Edythe's room were made of a more grainy, frosted glass texture with a faint, geographical image of the Earth's map designed on it.


*1/* Transpired means 'came to be known'. Do you mean 'passed'? Another meaning for it is 'elapsed' but, without anything else for context, it feels wrong because it will be interpreted through the dominant meaning. *2/ *'stripped bare'. That's active and, in the context of this sentence, suggests the people have been physically removed. 'any person in sight'. If there's no person in sight then there's no person there. *'The hallways were empty'* that's enough. We know you mean people. *3/* You don't need to mention 'hall' again. Just talk about the lights. 'Refined' means elegant and cultured in appearance, manner, or taste, or developed or improved so as to be precise or subtle. Neither of those seem to fit what you're describing. *'The lights shined bright, giving the walls and floors a clean, glossy look'.* *4/* Is the glass panel separate from the door? 'of a more' suggests you've previously mentioned a type of material. 'frosted glass' by its very nature tells us it's 'grainy' and 'textured'. You don't need to add anything extra there to describe it. Is there any particular reason it's a 'faint geographical image'? And why 'geographical'? The earths map is the earths map and we know what that looks like. 'designed in it' is a bit flimsy at the end there: This is a little difficult because to tighten it and retain all the information about the glass, I'd have to stack adjectives which is something you should try to avoid. Not always of course. Is 'shatterproof' of any great importance? I'll include it anyway and cheat by adding a hyphen: *'The shatterproof frosted-glass panel set into Edythe's door had an image of the earth etched into it.' *


Chrysandra1791 said:


> *1/* Edythe lied down on her back facing the bedroom ceiling, with tears welling up in her black eyes, mucus trickling from her bruised nose instead of blood and saliva trickling from the right side of her mouth instead of blood. *2/* The blindingly bright ceiling lights helped make her face still recognizable in spite of all of the physical trauma it suffered through fighting multitudes of Japanese security guards and soldiers. *3/* Her long, smooth, soft, auburn brown locks spread across the upper half of the bed. *4/ *As she stared straight into the light bulbs, Edythe couldn't help but breathe a huge sigh of frustration as her thoughts wandered off to her home life before these life-altering, traumatic turn of events.


*1/* This is quite mazy in construct. In most cases, 'down' and 'up' can be removed. If she lays down, it's assumed she'd be on her back. Very few people lay down on their stomachs, and only when they do would you need to describe that. If something has a 'assumed state' then you don't need to add extra pointers. And you've written 'facing the ceiling' which only serves to build on laying on her back. It doesn't add any fresh detail. Are those 'black eyes' describing the colour of her eyes? You've put 'welling up *in* her black eyes', which suggests that's the case. If you mean 'black eyes' in the sense of bruised eyes then you need to make that clearer. You've used 'instead of blood' twice and I'm not sure why you've used 'instead' at all. What would the reader assume other than what is described? There's little point in telling the reader what something isn't. Just tell them what it is. If the saliva is trickling from the right side of her mouth then that suggests she's on her side but we know she's on her back. Just remove that to stop any possible confusion: *'Edythe lied on the bed and stared intently at the ceiling, tears welling in her eyes, mucus trickling from her bruised nose and saliva drippling from her mouth.'* I think it needs breaking up though. I'd make it two sentences. That way you can get rid of unnecessary 'ing's too. '*Edythe lied on the bed and stared intently at the ceiling. Tears welled in her eyes, mucus trickled from her bruised nose, and saliva dribbled from her mouth.' *'ed' verbs are more active and pop. I'd probably add more detail and go into more depth with this, making it a paragraph of its own. Part of the problem here is you're trying to impart too much detail in one sentence, which is why you've had to say what things aren't in order to try and paint the picture you want. *2/* This is overwritten. I can't really offer an alternative because there's so much here I'd completely change that it wouldn't resemble this sentence at all. I try to adjust in line with what's already there but in this case I can't. *3/* That's a lot of adjectives: 'long/smooth/soft/auburn/brown' Instead of saying 'upper half of the bed' which is obvious, unless she chose to lay on the bed the wrong way up, be specific. Try pillow.* 'Her long, auburn hair spread across the pillow.' 4/ *Again there's overwriting here. *'As she stared into the light bulb, Edythe sighed in frustration and thought of home.' *We know she's been traumatised and we understand why she's thinking of home. 


Chrysandra1791 said:


> New York City, New York. March 16, 2023. 8:30 a.m. The International University of New York City.
> 
> "....And that is why Type 1 Diabetes is known as an autoimmune disease. An autoimmune disease is an illness that targets what it believes to be a foreign invader that has entered the body. Much like an allergic reaction, it is an overreaction of the immune system to what is really a harmless substance. Unlike an allergic reaction, it isn't a foreign substance being targeted, but the body's own natural organisms, and in this case, its insulin.”


I hope that helps.


----------



## Chrysandra1791

Kent_Jacobs said:


> Is this a chapter title?
> 
> *1/* Transpired means 'came to be known'. Do you mean 'passed'? Another meaning for it is 'elapsed' but, without anything else for context, it feels wrong because it will be interpreted through the dominant meaning. *2/ *'stripped bare'. That's active and, in the context of this sentence, suggests the people have been physically removed. 'any person in sight'. If there's no person in sight then there's no person there. *'The hallways were empty'* that's enough. We know you mean people. *3/* You don't need to mention 'hall' again. Just talk about the lights. 'Refined' means elegant and cultured in appearance, manner, or taste, or developed or improved so as to be precise or subtle. Neither of those seem to fit what you're describing. *'The lights shined bright, giving the walls and floors a clean, glossy look'.* *4/* Is the glass panel separate from the door? 'of a more' suggests you've previously mentioned a type of material. 'frosted glass' by its very nature tells us it's 'grainy' and 'textured'. You don't need to add anything extra there to describe it. Is there any particular reason it's a 'faint geographical image'? And why 'geographical'? The earths map is the earths map and we know what that looks like. 'designed in it' is a bit flimsy at the end there: This is a little difficult because to tighten it and retain all the information about the glass, I'd have to stack adjectives which is something you should try to avoid. Not always of course. Is 'shatterproof' of any great importance? I'll include it anyway and cheat by adding a hyphen: *'The shatterproof frosted-glass panel set into Edythe's door had an image of the earth etched into it.' *
> 
> *1/* This is quite mazy in construct. In most cases, 'down' and 'up' can be removed. If she lays down, it's assumed she'd be on her back. Very few people lay down on their stomachs, and only when they do would you need to describe that. If something has a 'assumed state' then you don't need to add extra pointers. And you've written 'facing the ceiling' which only serves to build on laying on her back. It doesn't add any fresh detail. Are those 'black eyes' describing the colour of her eyes? You've put 'welling up *in* her black eyes', which suggests that's the case. If you mean 'black eyes' in the sense of bruised eyes then you need to make that clearer. You've used 'instead of blood' twice and I'm not sure why you've used 'instead' at all. What would the reader assume other than what is described? There's little point in telling the reader what something isn't. Just tell them what it is. If the saliva is trickling from the right side of her mouth then that suggests she's on her side but we know she's on her back. Just remove that to stop any possible confusion: *'Edythe lied on the bed and stared intently at the ceiling, tears welling in her eyes, mucus trickling from her bruised nose and saliva drippling from her mouth.'* I think it needs breaking up though. I'd make it two sentences. That way you can get rid of unnecessary 'ing's too. '*Edythe lied on the bed and stared intently at the ceiling. Tears welled in her eyes, mucus trickled from her bruised nose, and saliva dribbled from her mouth.' *'ed' verbs are more active and pop. I'd probably add more detail and go into more depth with this, making it a paragraph of its own. Part of the problem here is you're trying to impart too much detail in one sentence, which is why you've had to say what things aren't in order to try and paint the picture you want. *2/* This is overwritten. I can't really offer an alternative because there's so much here I'd completely change that it wouldn't resemble this sentence at all. I try to adjust in line with what's already there but in this case I can't. *3/* That's a lot of adjectives: 'long/smooth/soft/auburn/brown' Instead of saying 'upper half of the bed' which is obvious, unless she chose to lay on the bed the wrong way up, be specific. Try pillow.* 'Her long, auburn hair spread across the pillow.' 4/ *Again there's overwriting here. *'As she stared into the light bulb, Edythe sighed in frustration and thought of home.' *We know she's been traumatised and we understand why she's thinking of home.
> 
> I hope that helps.


Thanks. I will be careful not to overstate or be too wordy next time.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Chrysandra1791 said:


> Thanks. I will be careful not to overstate or be too wordy next time.


I think the biggest problem is you're trying to squeeze too much into a sentence. Just ease up and take your time. She had bruises around her eyes and then you also wanted to mention she had tears in her eyes, which mixed the two together. Find a way of separating those out without smashing them together, but when you do that, still keep it tight. You'll still end up with more but because each has a sentence dedicated to it, it won't read or feel cramped or overwritten.

And check out what Jeko said too. He's made some really good points that I didn't mention.


----------



## Louanne Learning

Chrysandra1791 said:


> Seven hours transpired. The hallways were empty, stripped bare of any person in sight. The hall lights shined bright, giving the walls and floors a refined, clean, glossy look. The shatterproof glass panel and front door of Edythe's room were made of a more grainy, frosted glass texture with a faint, geographical image of the Earth's map designed on it.



Seven hours transpired. The hallways were empty, the lights shining bright, giving a clean and glossy look. Edyth's room was enclosed in shatterproof glass, grainy and frosted, with an image of Earth embossed upon it.



Chrysandra1791 said:


> Edythe lied down on her back facing the bedroom ceiling, with tears welling up in her black eyes, mucus trickling from her bruised nose instead of blood and saliva trickling from the right side of her mouth instead of blood. The blindingly bright ceiling lights helped make her face still recognizable in spite of all of the physical trauma it suffered through fighting multitudes of Japanese security guards and soldiers. Her long, smooth, soft, auburn brown locks spread across the upper half of the bed. As she stared straight into the light bulbs, Edythe couldn't help but breathe a huge sigh of frustration as her thoughts wandered off to her home life before these life-altering, traumatic turn of events.



Lying on the bed, Edith stared at the ceiling, tears welling up in her black eyes. Mucus dripped from her bruised nose and saliva trickled from her mouth. The physical trauma inflicted upon her face by the guards and soldiers was stark in the blinding light. Long, auburn hair fanned across the pillow, she stared into the light, sighing with frustration. Her thoughts wandered to home, to the days before her life was changed.



Chrysandra1791 said:


> New York City, New York. March 16, 2023. 8:30 a.m. The International University of New York City.
> 
> "....And that is why Type 1 Diabetes is known as an autoimmune disease. An autoimmune disease is an illness that targets what it believes to be a foreign invader that has entered the body. Much like an allergic reaction, it is an overreaction of the immune system to what is really a harmless substance. Unlike an allergic reaction, it isn't a foreign substance being targeted, but the body's own natural organisms, and in this case, its insulin.”



".... Type I diabetes—an autoimmune disease. Your immune system is specialized to target and destroy foreign microbes, but sometimes, in error, it targets your own cells. That's what an autoimmune disease is. In your case, it's targeting your pancreas, which produces insulin."


----------



## Chrysandra1791

Louanne Learning said:


> Seven hours transpired. The hallways were empty, the lights shining bright, giving a clean and glossy look. Edyth's room was enclosed in shatterproof glass, grainy and frosted, with an image of Earth embossed upon it.
> 
> 
> 
> Lying on the bed, Edith stared at the ceiling, tears welling up in her black eyes. Mucus dripped from her bruised nose and saliva trickled from her mouth. The physical trauma inflicted upon her face by the guards and soldiers was stark in the blinding light. Long, auburn hair fanned across the pillow, she stared into the light, sighing with frustration. Her thoughts wandered to home, to the days before her life was changed.
> 
> 
> 
> ".... Type I diabetes—an autoimmune disease. Your immune system is specialized to target and destroy foreign microbes, but sometimes, in error, it targets your own cells. That's what an autoimmune disease is. In your case, it's targeting your pancreas, which produces insulin."


Thank you so much. Your revisions sound so much better.


----------



## Louanne Learning

Chrysandra1791 said:


> Thank you so much. Your revisions sound so much better.


You set a very interesting scene. The writing just needed to be tightened. Avoid repetitions and too many words.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Well worth the watch:


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Another interesting lecture:


This might interest you, @Theglasshouse


----------



## Ajoy

These videos have been a welcome opportunity to learn. I've been on a break from actual writing while I wait for Beta reads on both of my projects, so the timing was perfect. I went hunting for more Sanderson lectures after you posted the first one.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Ajoy said:


> These videos have been a welcome opportunity to learn. I've been on a break from actual writing while I wait for Beta reads on both of my projects, so the timing was perfect. I went hunting for more Sanderson lectures after you posted the first one.


He's done loads of them but they come in series and it's often difficult to find them all.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs




----------



## alpacinoutd

Does this work?

The plane was somewhere over the Atlantic. With unfocused eyes, Gabriella looked out the window at the ocean of clouds rolling all the way to the edge of horizon. If it were two years ago, she would've grabbed her phone and taken a few photos. But the sight of the clouds didn't do much for her senses. It appeared that nothing could make her happy anymore, or sad for that matter. She'd spiraled down into a chamber whose dominant emotion was not despair, but apathy.

She'd been flying in a hazy numbness for more than three hours. She glanced at her watch. It was still set to London time. The city she'd come to despise over the past few years. She lifted her hand and set the watch to Miami time, wondering when if ever she'd have to set it back to London time. She then leaned back against her seat and sunk within herself. When she closed her eyes, she saw only her mother.


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

I'm having trouble with a fight sequence -- I'm just not sure it feels punchy and visceral enough. Maybe it's lacking immediacy? I'm not sure, but I feel like something is lacking, and I'd appreciate feedback.

_Jack grabbed for the only weapon he had—his rock hammer. His fingers fumbled around the handle, and he swung it point-side out. It made contact with one of the creature’s twining arms, and an enraged gurgle told him the point had hit home. A tentacle whipped around his neck; he choked and swung upwards into the miry body. Something dark and liquid dripped onto his face; the tentacles wound closer. Then he saw that one of its arms was drawn tight, stretching across to grasp a nearby root-growth, by which the dread creature stabilized itself. With a desperate strain, he freed up his arm, and smashed the taut arm hard against the root. A screech, and they both tumbled loose, Jack still entangled in the Marsh King’s tentacles. 

Jack hit wildly as they turned over and over, and it tore at him with claws and teeth. Once he felt his hammer smash against something hard and knew he had struck its mouth. He tried to wriggle out from its arms, but it only leered closer. The fish-teeth snapped at him, barely an inch from his face. As it closed with him he made a swing for its bulging eye. The point crushed through membrane and flesh, as if through many layers of rotten wood. Three black claws scored down his cheek. 

Then, wobbling, the Marsh King stumbled, its grip loosening. Jack smashed in its other eye. Black blood dribbled from both empty holes. It slumped and fell to what had once seemed to be the ceiling—now, was the ground. 

He crouched, breathing in and out in gasps, before its spasmodic twitching finally ceased._


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

alpacinoutd said:


> Does this work?
> 
> *(Good ->)*The plane was somewhere over the Atlantic. *(Good ->)* With unfocused eyes, Gabriella looked out the window at the ocean of clouds rolling all the way to the edge of *the* horizon. *(Good ->)* If it were *had been* two years ago, she would've grabbed her phone and taken a few photos.* (Good ->)* But the sight of the clouds didn't do much for her senses. *1/* It appeared that *N*othing could make her happy anymore, or sad for that matter. *2/* She'd spiraled down into a chamber whose dominant emotion was not despair, but apathy.


*1/* Be definite. Don't quibble unless REALLY necessary. *2/* If you're going to use a more figurate description, you have to be very careful. This sentence comes across as ungainly. The use of 'chamber' there is throwing this off. Does a chamber inherently posses emotion? Why have you picked chamber? That's what's lead to the messy ending. If one word throws you out and you find yourself jumping through hoops to try and bring it back together, lose that word and come at the sentence again:* 'She'd spiralled down, but the dominant emotion wasn't despair, it was apathy.' *Oooo ... a 'wasn't' and a 'was'! Slap me vicar! Personally, I'd want to isolate that 'It was apathy' to give it punch, and add more variety of sentence length. 


alpacinoutd said:


> *1/ *She'd been flying in a hazy numbness for more than three hours. *(Good ->)* She glanced at her watch. *(Good ->)* It was still set to London time. *(Excellent finale to the sequence of three sentences ->)* The city she'd come to despise over the past few years. *(Good but ->)* *2/* She lifted her hand and set the watch to Miami time, wondering when*--*if ever*--*she'd have to set it back to London time. *(Good ->) *She *T*hen *she* leaned back against *into* her seat and sunk within herself. *(Good ->)* When she closed her eyes, she saw only her mother.


*1/ *Your love affair with 'hazy' has to stop! Or get a room! You don't need it. This sentence needs some work though. It's a bit wishy-washy. It probably needs a little more so it's difficult to rewrite. I'll give it a quick go: *'For more than three hours she'd been flying-- numbed and foggy-headed.'* *2/* This sentence would have been so good if you hadn't watered it down at the end. Think of it as an encore for the previous three sentence: 'She set the watch to Miami time'. You don't need the detail of her lifter her hand. *2/* That 'if ever' needs some kind of punctuation but rather than adding in commas, I'd opt from emdashes, which creates a more striking 'aside' and deepens the tone. 

All in all really good.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord said:


> I'm having trouble with a fight sequence -- I'm just not sure it feels punchy and visceral enough. Maybe it's lacking immediacy? I'm not sure, but I feel like something is lacking, and I'd appreciate feedback.
> 
> _Jack grabbed for the only weapon he had—his rock hammer. His fingers fumbled around the handle, and he swung it point-side out. It made contact with one of the creature’s twining arms, and an enraged gurgle told him the point had hit home. A tentacle whipped around his neck; he choked and swung upwards into the miry body. _*1/*_ Something dark and liquid dripped onto his face; the tentacles wound closer. *2/* Then he saw that one of its arms was drawn tight, stretching across to grasp a nearby root-growth, by which the dread creature *stabilized itself*. _*3/*_ With a desperate strain, he freed up his arm, and smashed the taut arm hard against the root. A screech, and they both tumbled loose, Jack still entangled in the Marsh King’s tentacles. _


*1/* Something about this sentence creates a blockage to the flow. Ironically, I think it all leads from that 'something'. The use of the semicolon isn't helping, especially when you used the same format in the previous sentence. You say 'something' and then call it 'liquid'. If you do revise this sentence, consider starting with 'Liquid' or 'dark liquid' and lose that semicolon. *2/* 'Then he saw that one'. Not so much a blockage as a hinderance to the flow. We're going along at a nice even pace, hit a bump and then wade through treacle here, largely because you've given it the 'filter' treatment. That 'was' too. It all puts it on the back foot and drags the life out of what went before. Momentum is lost here when it should be still driving forward. The whole sentence feels sluggish. Action it up! *3/* We begin to get that momentum back but 'with a desperate strain' and 'up' just make it choke a little before it gets going. 'Freed' is a bit weak too. I'd think of a more evocative verb. Something like:* 'With a yank, he ripped his arm free and smashed it against the root.' *


ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord said:


> *1/ *_Jack hit wildly as they turned over and over, and it tore at him with claws and teeth. Once he felt his hammer smash against something hard and knew he had struck its mouth. He tried to wriggle out from its arms, but it only leered closer. The fish-teeth snapped at him, barely an inch from his face. As it closed with him he made a swing for its bulging eye. The point crushed through membrane and flesh, as if through many layers of rotten wood. Three black claws scored down his cheek. _


*1/* This doesn't feel exciting. Try to engage more senses. Something like this: *'Jack hammered the creature wildly as they tumbled over and over through the bracken. It clawed at him, the stink of dead fish wafting into his face as its teeth snapped closer, and then closer still. He tried to wriggle free but it drew him in. Its large eye loomed, yellow and sticky, inspecting him with cold calculation. This was his chance. He flipped the hammer claw-side and with everything he had, drove it home. The membrane of the eye popped and thick, translucent fluid oozed down the hammer's handle, slopping onto his hand. From somewhere in the beast, a growl of pain, so deep it rattled Jack's bones. *


ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord said:


> _Then, wobbling, the Marsh King stumbled, its grip loosening. Jack smashed in its other eye. Black blood dribbled from both empty holes. It slumped and fell to what had once seemed to be the ceiling—now, was the ground.
> 
> He crouched, breathing in and out in gasps, before its spasmodic twitching finally ceased._


----------



## Taylor

@Selorian Thanks for responding to my post in the Show Don't Tell thread.  I would be interested to see your edits if you have time, please. 

The auditor looked surprised when Adam explained he would get a higher commission if he closed a mortgage with a client who was in a lower-income neighborhood. This was because the government had put a minimum quota on banks to lend in certain areas that before the new regulations had been considered too high risk. Adam knew the clients he was approving for mortgages were at high risk of not having the ability to pay, especially when the interest rates went up due to the adjustable rate mortgages. In many cases, they had no income, no jobs, and no assets. Adam felt no guilt in issuing high-risk mortgages as his boss insinuated the bank would unload them to Ginnie Mae a government entity that was established to back mortgages.


----------



## Selorian

Taylor said:


> @Selorian Thanks for responding to my post in the Show Don't Tell thread.  I would be interested to see your edits if you have time, please.
> 
> The auditor looked surprised when Adam explained he would get a higher commission if he closed a mortgage with a client who was in a lower-income neighborhood. This was because The government had put a minimum quota on banks to lend in certain areas that before the new regulations had been considered too high risk. Adam knew the clients he was approving for mortgages were at high risk of not having the ability to pay, especially when the interest rates went up due to _the_ adjustable rate mortgages. In many cases, they had no income, no jobs, and no assets. Adam felt no guilt _in_ issuing high-risk mortgages as his boss insinuated the bank would unload them to Ginnie Mae, a government entity that was established to back mortgages.



Of course. Basically all I did in the other thread (there just to get a lean paragraph to show how word count can increase) was what I believe to be extraneous words. Above I striked out those and in red italics noted ones that could be cut if a person really wanted to. It shouldn't change the intent of any sentence as well, at least for me, makes it read better. I seldom do more than that because it is too easy to start pushing my own style on to others, which I don't wish to do. If, though, you want my exact reasoning for the words I did cut, just ask and I'll explain.


----------



## Taylor

Selorian said:


> Of course. Basically all I did in the other thread (there just to get a lean paragraph to show how word count can increase) was what I believe to be extraneous words. Above I striked out those and in red italics noted ones that could be cut if a person really wanted to. It shouldn't change the intent of any sentence as well, at least for me, makes it read better. I seldom do more than that because it is too easy to start pushing my own style on to others, which I don't wish to do. If, though, you want my exact reasoning for the words I did cut, just ask and I'll explain.


No reasoning is required.  They are all excellent edits . . . THANKS!


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

There's nothing I'd add to what Salorian has pointed out there in terms of tightening. I wonder though, where does this information appear? It's a little dry but it shouldn't be a problem if it's buried amid a more active and colourful scene.


----------



## Taylor

Kent_Jacobs said:


> There's nothing I'd add to what Salorian has pointed out there in terms of tightening. I wonder though, where does this information appear? It's a little dry but it shouldn't be a problem if it's buried amid a more active and colourful scene.


Agree!  It doesn't exist in my writing.  I wrote it as a bad example of telling on the 'Show, Don't Tell' thread.  @Selorian  just happened to notice it could use a trim!


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Taylor said:


> Agree!  It doesn't exist in my writing.  I wrote it as a bad example of telling on the 'Show, Don't Tell' thread.  @Selorian  just happened to notice it could use a trim!


Oh ... lol.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Does this convey the coat stand also doubles as a description of Simone?

“Same as, same as,” Simone said, unable to feign enthusiasm. She twisted the buttons free on her beige Burberry trench coat and shrugged it off, as if a suffocating skin. Then, she throttled the collar and hung it on a coat stand trapped in the corner. A stiff, skinny, curly-headed hydra, wearing her coat. She turned her back on it and dug up a smile from somewhere. “How’s _your_ day been?”​


----------



## Taylor

I like it!

I question the use of the word "throttled.

Also, why is the coat stand a "curly-headed thing"?


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Taylor said:


> I like it!
> 
> I question the use of the word "throttled.
> 
> Also, why is the coat stand a "curly-headed thing"?


She grips it hard (it represents a job she hates) hence: throttled. I was thinking of this type of coat stand:

edit: it won't let me post the image. It's one of those with an array of curly wood at the top.


----------



## Taylor

Kent_Jacobs said:


> She grips it hard (it represents a job she hates) hence: throttled. I was thinking of this type of coat stand:
> 
> edit: it won't let me post the image. It's one of those with an array of curly wood at the top.


LOL!!  I think I know what you mean.  You might have to describe that stand though, perhaps in an earlier scene.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Taylor said:


> LOL!!  I think I know what you mean.  You might have to describe that stand though, perhaps in an earlier scene.


What if I said 'twisty headed' instead to describe she's messed up rather than she's got curly hair?


----------



## Taylor

Kent_Jacobs said:


> What if I said 'twisty headed' instead to describe she's messed up rather than she's got curly hair?


It would be better yes.  But I'm not sure if I just read it, I'd get the image of that coat stand.  Does that style of stand have a name?


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Taylor said:


> It would be better yes.  But I'm not sure if I just read it, I'd get the image of that coat stand.  Does that style of stand have a name?


I'll look it up and see.

Evidently the traditional shape of a coat stand is universally seen as the pic I posted earlier, so those extra descriptions I've added should immediately be understood (hopefully)


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Better?

“Same as, same as,” Simone said, unable to feign enthusiasm. She twisted the buttons free on her beige Burberry trench coat and shrugged it off, as if a suffocating skin. Then, she throttled the collar and hung it on a coat stand trapped in the corner. A skinny, curly-headed hydra, made of synthetic bamboo and wearing her coat. She turned her back on it and salvaged a smile from somewhere. “How’s your day been?”​


----------



## Riptide

Kent_Jacobs said:


> Better?
> 
> “Same as, same as,” Simone said, unable to feign enthusiasm. She twisted the buttons free on her beige Burberry trench coat *and* shrugged it off, as if a suffocating skin. Then, she throttled (throttled does read funny to me too... is it like popped?) the collar *and* hung it on a coat stand trapped in the corner. A skinny, curly-headed hydra, made of synthetic bamboo *and* wearing her coat I wonder if it would sound better like: A skinny, curled-headed hydra made of synthetic bamboo (now) wore her coat. -- like I said before, you like your 'and's so I'd consider rewording some of your sentences to avoid them. She turned her back on it *and* salvaged a smile from somewhere. “How’s your day been?”​


I love the description and the dialogue sounds interesting. Love a salvaged smile


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Riptide said:


> I love the description and the dialogue sounds interesting. Love a salvaged smile


Yeah, I'd noticed a few constructions with 'and' but didn't think they were too intrusive. Could you do me a favour and reword those sentences without using 'and'. Perhaps seeing an alternative may help me to visualise other possible alternatives.


----------



## Llyralen

alpacinoutd said:


> Does this work?
> 
> The plane was somewhere over the Atlantic. With unfocused eyes, Gabriella looked out the window at the ocean of clouds rolling all the way to the edge of horizon. If it were two years ago, she would've grabbed her phone and taken a few photos. But the sight of the clouds didn't do much for her senses. It appeared that nothing could make her happy anymore, or sad for that matter. She'd spiraled down into a chamber whose dominant emotion was not despair, but apathy.
> 
> She'd been flying in a hazy numbness for more than three hours. She glanced at her watch. It was still set to London time. The city she'd come to despise over the past few years. She lifted her hand and set the watch to Miami time, wondering when if ever she'd have to set it back to London time. She then leaned back against her seat and sunk within herself. When she closed her eyes, she saw only her mother.


I know this awesome thread is where people give feedback for sentences to read smoother, but hopefully it can also be a place for feedback to make stronger content?  

I read along with this piece just fine, but I felt like I really wanted a stronger contrast between how she would have reacted to looking out at clouds two years ago versus now.  I just know what my reader’s heart wants and that’s to hear her describe a particular flight where the clouds had brought her raptures and she had taken pictures to better contrast with her feelings now. 

For smoothness and for content when she wonders when she will be in London again, to make it stronger(if she hates London) would be maybe something like “…and she hoped she would never have to set her watch to London time again” or something like that… it would just add to the picture of her emotional state, I think.

Let me know what you think!


----------



## Riptide

Kent_Jacobs said:


> Better?
> 
> “Same as, same as,” Simone said, unable to feign enthusiasm. She twisted the buttons free on her beige Burberry trench coat and shrugged it off, as if a suffocating skin. Then, she throttled the collar and hung it on a coat stand trapped in the corner. A skinny, curly-headed hydra, made of synthetic bamboo and wearing her coat. She turned her back on it and salvaged a smile from somewhere. “How’s your day been?”​


I noticed a lot of 'and' in my work so maybe I'm just more attuned to it since I'm purposely looking for it.

I suppose: 

She twisted the buttons free on her beige Burberry trench coat, shrugged it off as if a suffocating (second?) skin, then throttled the collar and hung it on a coat stand trapped in the corner. A skinny, curled-headed hydra made of synthetic bamboo now wore her coat. She turned her back on it and salvaged a smile from somewhere.

I know you dislike gerund phrases, but I don't think they're all bad. 
Or: 

She twisted the buttons free on her beige Burberry trench coat and shrugged it off, as if a suffocating skin. After throttling the collar, she hung it on a coat stand trapped in the corner. (She throttled the collar, then hung it on a coat stand trapped in a corner) A skinny, curly-headed hydra, made of synthetic bamboo now wore her coat. She turned her back on it, salvaging a smile from somewhere.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Riptide said:


> I noticed a lot of 'and' in my work so maybe I'm just more attuned to it since I'm purposely looking for it.
> 
> I suppose:
> 
> She twisted the buttons free on her beige Burberry trench coat, shrugged it off as if a suffocating (second?) skin, then throttled the collar and hung it on a coat stand trapped in the corner. A skinny, curled-headed hydra made of synthetic bamboo now wore her coat. She turned her back on it and salvaged a smile from somewhere.
> 
> I know you dislike gerund phrases, but I don't think they're all bad.
> Or:
> 
> She twisted the buttons free on her beige Burberry trench coat and shrugged it off, as if a suffocating skin. After throttling the collar, she hung it on a coat stand trapped in the corner. (She throttled the collar, then hung it on a coat stand trapped in a corner) A skinny, curly-headed hydra, made of synthetic bamboo now wore her coat. She turned her back on it, salvaging a smile from somewhere.


Cheers for that. I'm not against gerunds per se. I'll use them often to deliberately soften the prose when appropriate for instance. In general, I like to use a mix but do opt to avoid them if possible. If I see a few on the trot though ... that does my head in!

Part of the problem is I dislike 'that', 'but' and gerunds MORE than I dislike repeated 'and's. I think it's the solitary 'and' construction that bothers me most though. If you read Hemmingway, you'll see he's not exactly shy of using 'and' or 'was', one of the reasons I don't actually like his prose that much.

edit: Looking through what I have so far, I don't think (on balance) there's an excessive use but it has been helpful to hear a reminder. I was one of the things I challenge myself to reduce in that year of practice but as I've let it flow more freely, it's sneaked back in:

The mahogany, six-panelled door phased out, its thrum fading in to the electro-voiced sentence the brunette had heard endless times before: ‘Welcome home, Simone.’ Even though she’d heard it ad nauseam, she obliged with a quick upturning of her lips, but the smile quickly sank. She resented the auto-reflexes her mother had instilled back on the farm. Smiling. Always smiling. Even at the cows, at the sheep, at the hens, at the lanky mailman with rank teeth and a twitch in his pants he forever tweaked. She’d forgiven her father’s curmudgeon long ago. It was the only thing left that made her feel half human.

“How was your day at the office, dear?” John7 asked.

Sunlight flooded the apartment through a glass frontage and bounced off the white walls, tracing John7 with a feathered edge. His backlit blond hair looked illuminated. Even though she couldn’t quite make out his face, she knew, in those all too perfect features, sat an all too perfect grin.

“Same as, same as,” Simone said, unable to feign enthusiasm. She twisted the buttons free on her beige Burberry trench coat and shrugged it off, as if a suffocating skin. Then, she throttled the collar and hung it on a stand trapped in the corner. A skinny, curly-headed hydra, made of synthetic bamboo, wearing her coat. She turned her back on it and salvaged a half-decent smile from somewhere. “How’s _your_ day been?”

“Same as, same as,” he answered.

Simone rolled her eyes as she padded over to the tele-wall. The thick-pile carpet threatened to suck dry what little will she had left. She needed concrete beneath her kitten heels, not woollen weave. Feeling eaten by an ever-hungry world was par for the course these days, and the clack, clack at least reminded her the word ‘boss’ still had meaning, even if it was tokenesque at best.

“Relaxation,” Simone said.​


----------



## TerraLiga

This is not quite the ordinary request for advice, apologies, but it is relevant to the thread.

Firstly, a disclaimer. This copy is for a website I'm developing, so it has to serve several functions; an introduction to the company, a plain English explanation of what the company does, copy that is SEO-friendly so that relevant searches are linked to the website.

Anyone with SEO experience would be warmly welcomed (I don't!). I don't really like the opening para - or at least where it appears in the copy block - but here goes.



Originally homogenised in 1963, the road signs of the UK have become design classics worldwide. The shapes, symbols and typeface are instantly recognisable to every British road user and pedestrian alike. You can't get any more iconic than that.

Our designs are based on these instantly recognisable road signs and repurposed for wearable impact. On some, we've taken a few liberties, and on others it's up to you to express your personality through them. See our exciting range now by pressing the [COLLECTION] button above.

Sustainably sourced, printed and packaged, our 100% organic cotton garments will not only make a visual statement, but come with an environmental message too. When you've worn it out, send it back and it'll be made into something else. We'll give you a store credit every time you recycle.

Our current range includes T-shirts, long sleeve shirts, hoodies and a growing range of accessories. We update our range regularly, so please sign up to be kept up to date with new items and special offers.


----------



## Matchu

I think the term would be ‘same old, same old’ unless I jumped on the wrong end of some stick…and also 4 words for a coat is - grim  - ‘coat’ might work better?


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## Parabola

Matchu said:


> I think the term would be ‘same old, same old’ unless I jumped on the wrong end of some stick…and also 4 words for a coat is - grim  - ‘coat’ might work better?



4 words for a coat is grim. 8 words, on the other hand, is _interesting_. It even has the potential to be fascinating. 24 words for a coat. You just blew my mind.


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## Matchu

I will have to read back - thanks- but it might be tomorrow as I’m fresh home from work and fresh.  I only recall how prince @Az sustained me through critical hours [workplace] Thursday through sunday Monday - and my great appetite for his cats


----------



## Taylor

Matchu said:


> I think the term would be ‘same old, same old’ unless I jumped on the wrong end of some stick…and also 4 words for a coat is - grim  - ‘coat’ might work better?


If you are referring to the "beige Burberry trench coat,"  I believe Kent is trying to develop the character with her choice of clothing.   To me, that specific type of coat signals that she works in a business environment and makes good money.  But the fact that the coat felt like a "suffocating skin" makes me think she has a  tough job that she perhaps doesn't like and is just happy to be home where she is not beholden to her boss.  I totally can relate to that paragraph.   

And Kent's voice works well for realism.  I would like to see him write more of it.


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## Matchu

‘Burberry coat’ might be enough - i don’t enjoy the total micro-management.  Let me breathe…

…altho breathing in stories is utterly taboo, I should add…in my loftiness


----------



## Taylor

Matchu said:


> ‘Burberry coat’ might be enough - i don’t enjoy the total micro-management.  Let me breathe…
> 
> …altho breathing in stories is utterly taboo, I should add…in my loftiness


Burberry makes a lot of different types of coats.  Just google Burberry coat and see what you get. 

What does your comment,  "I don’t enjoy the total micro-management. Let me breathe…" refer to?


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## Parabola

I do find the coat to be an interesting angle. "Suffocating skin" and whatnot.


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## Matchu

I’ll have to get back to you in the morning on this when I’ll be brilliant and sharp.  I don’t really have the full gen on ‘Burberry.’

But I believe the UK psyche & total understanding in one word is ‘1930s Burberry’ -    classy number - and any other year since about 1957 equals gauche Qatari overcoat/underclass leisurewear encapsulated in one word - that excites as a stand-alone noun, or maybe adjective.  Umm


----------



## Taylor

Matchu said:


> I’ll have to get back to you in the morning on this when I’ll be brilliant and sharp.  I don’t really have the full gen on ‘Burberry.’
> 
> But I believe the UK psyche & total understanding in one word is ‘1930s Burberry’ -    classy number - and any other year since about 1957 equals gauche Qatari overcoat/underclass leisurewear encapsulated in one word - that excites as a stand-alone noun, or maybe adjective.  Umm



You do make a good point about the Burberry trench coat not changing since the 1930s -- being a classic.  But it never fell into the g_auche_ under-class leisurewear category.  I've done business in the UK since 1986.  Dating myself now.  It may have lost popularity for a period but had a renewal in the late 90s.

Not trying to be argumentative, but my point is in some cases, using a lot of adjectives can be useful.  In this case, I have to say, as someone who wore a beige Burberry trench coat to work for 20+ years, that line spoke to me and made me chuckle.

If I was going to describe it in two words, I might say, "Burberry trench."   But I still like it the way it is.


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## Matchu

Yes, you are more precise - I was making a sweeping statement - relating to risk in writing - how the single phrase can or may be evocative - it may be your master stroke , or fall on its face, so see how it flies..

I’ll be on a computer tomorrow.  I’m not very good on the mobile - and I’m still in shock from my mental health lovelies, workplace.


----------



## TerraLiga

Matchu said:


> ...sweeping statement...


HAHA! Excellent. I mean, in the context of your profile pic.


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## Matchu

Ya, shit. Sweep is kind of important, quite distressed now


----------



## Taylor

Matchu said:


> Yes, you are more precise - I was making a sweeping statement - relating to risk in writing - how the single phrase can or may be evocative - it may be your master stroke , or fall on its face, so see how it flies..
> 
> I’ll be on a computer tomorrow.  I’m not very good on the mobile - and I’m still in shock from my mental health lovelies, workplace.


Oh dear ... I hope your evening goes better.  You're right about the single phrase, although tough to find one that evokes.  I remember when businessmen used to refer to their "monkey suit."  Everyone understood that to be a suit and tie. If you didn't work in the business world, you might be quite confused by that terminology.  LOL!!


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

The aim here is to try and suggest what job she's got. As in the stand representing a description of Simone, I want this to define her without explicitly stating it. Does it work? Would you 'perhaps' take away the idea she works in design?

Simone rolled her eyes as she padded over to the tele-wall. The thick-pile carpet threatened to suck dry what little will she had left. She needed concrete beneath her kitten heels, not woollen weave. Feeling eaten by an ever-hungry world was par for the course these days, and the clack, clack at least reminded her the word ‘boss’ still had meaning, even if it was tokenesque at best.

“Relaxation,” Simone said.

A rotating range of options popped onto the tele-wall, turning anticlockwise with all the time in the world. The accompanying menu music equalled the indifference. Plain. Functional. Square boxes too, emphasising the no messing approach. Circles are so weak. They sit there begging to be hit, like some hooker on the cheap streets. Whoever designed this page deserves a rise. Just pick an option already, she heard herself thinking. That was the carpet talking. Perhaps the carpet had been a good investment after all.​


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Taylor said:


> You do make a good point about the Burberry trench coat not changing since the 1930s -- being a classic.  But it never fell into the g_auche_ under-class leisurewear category.  I've done business in the UK since 1986.  Dating myself now.  It may have lost popularity for a period but had a renewal in the late 90s.
> 
> Not trying to be argumentative, but my point is in some cases, using a lot of adjectives can be useful.  In this case, I have to say, as someone who wore a beige Burberry trench coat to work for 20+ years, that line spoke to me and made me chuckle.
> 
> If I was going to describe it in two words, I might say, "Burberry trench."   But I still like it the way it is.


This is the thing about adjectives. Sometimes it's not a matter of removing them, it's a matter of adjusting slightly. You're not just erasing a word, you could be erasing a whole lot of style. Striking the balance between the two is the hardest part. My approach is to lean into it heavily and see what happens. Then blend it and smooth it into the main style. I think it worked there.


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## Taylor

Kent_Jacobs said:


> The aim here is to try and suggest what job she's got. As in the stand representing a description of Simone, I want this to define her without explicitly stating it. Does it work? Would you 'perhaps' take away the idea she works in design?
> 
> Simone rolled her eyes as she padded over to the tele-wall. The thick-pile carpet threatened to suck dry what little will she had left. She needed concrete beneath her kitten heels, not woollen weave. Feeling eaten by an ever-hungry world was par for the course these days, and the clack, clack at least reminded her the word ‘boss’ still had meaning, even if it was tokenesque at best.
> 
> “Relaxation,” Simone said.
> 
> A rotating range of options popped onto the tele-wall, turning anticlockwise with all the time in the world. The accompanying menu music equalled the indifference. Plain. Functional. Square boxes too, emphasising the no messing approach. Circles are so weak. They sit there begging to be hit, like some hooker on the cheap streets. Whoever designed this page deserves a rise. Just pick an option already, she heard herself thinking. That was the carpet talking. Perhaps the carpet had been a good investment after all.​


I like the idea that she works in design.  I feel like you're writing me as your protag.  LOL!! 

I used to work in design and it is all-consuming.  One never shuts the brain off.  And it can be quite stressful.  So this fits with your theme in the earlier passage where she's peeling out of her coat and glad to be home from work.  

I think it's a little cryptic as you describe here.  Not sure I would have picked it up without you pointing it out.  I'd take the hooker line out.  It seems a bit jarring.  And I'd focus more on her decision model.  Designers think in terms of 'form or function'.  That's the golden rule! 

Also when you say "Whoever" is that her?


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## Kent_Jacobs

Taylor said:


> I like the idea that she works in design.  I feel like you're writing me as your protag.  LOL!!
> 
> I used to work in design and it is all-consuming.  One never shuts the brain off.  And it can be quite stressful.  So this fits with your theme in the earlier passage where she's peeling out of her coat and glad to be home from work.
> 
> I think it's a little cryptic as you describe here.  Not sure I would have picked it up without you pointing it out.  I'd take the hooker line out.  It seems a bit jarring.  And I'd focus more on her decision model.  Designers think in terms of 'form or function'.  That's the golden rule!
> 
> Also when you say "Whoever" is that her?


Your pic has certainly entered my subconscious. That's for sure! I made her brunette though. And it doesn't hurt that you come with the details.  I think the voice is developing nice:

Simone rolled her eyes as she padded over to the tele-wall. The thick-pile carpet threatened to suck dry what little will she had left. She needed concrete beneath her kitten heels, not woollen weave. Feeling eaten by an ever-hungry world was par for the course these days, and the clack, clack at least reminded her the word ‘boss’ still had meaning, even if it was tokenesque at best.

“Relaxation,” Simone said.

A rotating range of options popped onto the tele-wall, turning anticlockwise with all the time in the world. The accompanying menu music equalled the indifference. Plain. Functional. Square boxes too, emphasising the no messing approach. Circles are weak. They sit there begging to be hit like some hooker on the cheap streets. Whoever designed this page deserves a rise. Just pick an option already, she heard herself thinking. That was the carpet talking. Perhaps the carpet had been a good investment after all. But then again …

A hand caressing her waste. Another slipping slowly up her inner thigh. Under the cover of carpet, John7 had made his move. It was slick. She’d give him that. A little abrupt too, which isn’t always a bad thing. He nibbled at Simone’s ear like a newborn suckling at a teat. In all those wires and chips there had to be some humanity. She thought back to the farm where John1 was easy to understand. No relationship, no passion, no desire, just a dog to fetch a bone.​


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## Kent_Jacobs




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## Kent_Jacobs




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## Kent_Jacobs

This is invaluable in my opinion and I still watch these videos just to remind myself of things I may have forgotten. In the very first video, you'll probably recognise many things I've said myself, some of which fit perfectly into the critiques I've given in this very thread:


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## Kent_Jacobs

This thread is still open for business you know ...


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## Kent_Jacobs




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## Kent_Jacobs




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