# Does race matter in a story?



## dakota.potts (Oct 10, 2013)

I have a really cool character in a story that I almost have a feeling for more than the main character -- I don't know him better, he's just a cooler and more straightforward personality. 

I instantly got an image in my head of him -- a young black man, early 20's, fairly tall and just big enough to not be skinny. Cargo pants, hoodies and converse shoes or boots for clothes (all worn and faded with muted colors). I'm thinking maybe a light mustache, and a distinguishing accent. For some reason I'm thinking something like British, French, Australian -- something unique, but still English based. 

Here's my question: does his race really matter? If I see him a certain way, should I describe him that way? What I don't want to do is call too much attention to it. I'm also tempted to leave skin tone descriptions entirely out of the equation all together to let the reader imagine every person as they will (within certain parameters for each) with no right or wrong answers. On the other hand, I have a pretty clear picture of him. 

What do you guys think? Am I over thinking it?


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## escorial (Oct 10, 2013)

I would say by describing his race is just like describing a city or car...ect


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## Olly Buckle (Oct 10, 2013)

> Am I over thinking it?


A little I think, take your thread title and chop the last three words off it "Does race really matter?" Well it matters to some people I suppose, will he come up against any of them in the story? The other thing is did it affect his cultural upbringing, most black people get brought up  in a black family with origins somewhere else, but I knew one guy as a teenager who grew up in a small country town the adopted son of white, middle class parents. your characters can be anything you make them, and that includes dark skinned or that sort of creamy white that goes with freckles, red hair and sunburn, but unless it is important to the plot I wouldn't make too much of it.


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## Sintalion (Oct 10, 2013)

Does race matter? 
Depending on the story it might. You say you don't want to draw attention to it and that's an easy fix. There's nothung attention grabbing about pointing out that's he's black or has a mustache or an accent. 

The more you leave out however, the higher the odds tht other people won't picture him the same way. If you left out his race from the description above my brain would default to the typical Australian. Just one with a mustache. Leaving out race and expecting folks to get it based on sterotypes could easily offend people. Adding lots of quirks can muddle the image though. It's a balance that can be at times hard to find. Me, I don't worry about it. If race effects the story then I include it. 

If the story is so there's no right or wrong answer and you're okay with folks imagining it differently, go for it. 

Apologies for being a little scattered. I'm using my phone and it won't let me fix anything.


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## Tettsuo (Oct 10, 2013)

dakota.potts said:


> I have a really cool character in a story that I almost have a feeling for more than the main character -- I don't know him better, he's just a cooler and more straightforward personality.
> 
> I instantly got an image in my head of him -- a young black man, early 20's, fairly tall and just big enough to not be skinny. Cargo pants, hoodies and converse shoes or boots for clothes (all worn and faded with muted colors). I'm thinking maybe a light mustache, and a distinguishing accent. For some reason I'm thinking something like British, French, Australian -- something unique, but still English based.
> 
> ...


Yes, race matters.  Race plays a part in how the character behaves and how he/she reacts in certain situations.  Social pressures, stigmas and beliefs are woven into who we are and race influences how society treats us.

Given that, how the character stands (chest up, back straight vs slouched over) can be influenced by who's around him/her.  Maybe the person feels a bit intimidated by an older white man in an expensive business suit, so he shrinks back.  Maybe he's more awkward around a white girl, or better yet, maybe he's even more awkward around a black because he's had limited experience around them but thinks he shouldn't be.

It all plays a part in how the character behaves.


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## Bloggsworth (Oct 10, 2013)

If his race is germane to the narrative then it has to be mentioned, whether directly or indirectly, the thing to avoid is making an issue of it so that his race becomes a story in itself.


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## shadowwalker (Oct 10, 2013)

I've never described my characters unless it's of some importance to the story. I figure let the reader see them the way they want to. Of course, I've gotten some flack for this opinion because of "under-representation" issues, but I'm writing a story, not an essay or documentary. If race is important to the story, then I mention race. If religion is important, I mention religion. If it doesn't affect what happens, why include it? JMO


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## Nickleby (Oct 10, 2013)

I agree with shadowwalker on this point. I don't mention a character's race unless it has some bearing on the story, and I can't remember that ever happening. It's a deliberate but implicit endorsement of colorblindness.

 In the end, if you write the character well enough, the reader will get a good picture of him or her without your having to specify things like skin color or height or shoe size. In one story I deliberately left out any description of the main character, but readers told me he reminded them of a particular actor. I had had that actor in mind when I wrote the story.

So follow that classic guideline of showing not telling. Show us where this character lives, how he acts, who he spends time with. Don't tell us what he looks like, we can infer that from the rest.


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## Tyrannohotep (Oct 10, 2013)

While we're on the topic of race...

It has always bugged me that in the action/adventure stories I like to read, the white male heroes always end up paired with white or other lighter-skinned women despite the stories taking place in exotic locales with darker-skinned natives. I don't mind the heroes themselves being white men, as I am a white guy, but I would prefer the girls be black or otherwise dark-skinned and non-European. Therefore I have long wanted to write an adventure story with a white male hero and a black leading lady. Unfortunately whenever I discuss my plans with other writers, at least one person screams "exotification" or "racial fetishism" as if white men writing about interracial relationships with black women is inherently offensive. I firmly believe people should write whatever they want, but it is sure painful to be accused of racism when you have the opposite intention.


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## Whimsica (Oct 10, 2013)

I really wish race didn't matter, is all I have to say. I hope to see more things deviate from "default white hero/heroine" more often, and without the different race of the character being anything significant to the actual franchise.


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## dakota.potts (Oct 10, 2013)

Tyrannohotep said:


> While we're on the topic of race...
> 
> It has always bugged me that in the action/adventure stories I like to read, the white male heroes always end up paired with white or other lighter-skinned women despite the stories taking place in exotic locales with darker-skinned natives. I don't mind the heroes themselves being white men, as I am a white guy, but I would prefer the girls be black or otherwise dark-skinned and non-European. Therefore I have long wanted to write an adventure story with a white male hero and a black leading lady. Unfortunately whenever I discuss my plans with other writers, at least one person screams "exotification" or "racial fetishism" as if white men writing about interracial relationships with black women is inherently offensive. I firmly believe people should write whatever they want, but it is sure painful to be accused of racism when you have the opposite intention.



I'm not sure if you're a video gamer, but immediately the game Far Cry 3 comes to mind. In the game you end up establishing a relationship with a female leader of the Rakyat tribe. I don't remember where the game is set, but I think it's an island in South America. You're a white male there on vacation to party when your friends get kidnapped by another group who is holding them for ransom and she helps you get them back. In order to choose staying with her she does make you kill your friends with a ceremonial knife, so I suppose there's always that holding it back...


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## Morkonan (Oct 10, 2013)

dakota.potts said:


> ..Here's my question: does his race really matter? If I see him a certain way, should I describe him that way? What I don't want to do is call too much attention to it. I'm also tempted to leave skin tone descriptions entirely out of the equation all together to let the reader imagine every person as they will (within certain parameters for each) with no right or wrong answers. On the other hand, I have a pretty clear picture of him.
> 
> What do you guys think? Am I over thinking it?



I think you're overthinking this a bit. I can remember plenty of great stories that had characters of different races and I rarely remarked upon it. As a matter of fact, I was pleasantly surprised to discover how easily the author had inserted a clear racial characteristic that I, as a reader, didn't really notice. IOW - It's interesting to discover that the character you're reading about is actually of a different race than you had previously imagined. Funny how the brain works, eh?

But, as some have alluded to, it's not necessary to keep reinforcing racial attributes unless there's something in the story that needs to interface with that characteristic. IOW - Unless it's important to something in your story, a good once-over, here and there, with the character's qualities is enough. Don't keep repeating it unless it's important that the reader take note of it.

As far as the racial biases of the reader possibly having an effect on the reception of your story, that's up to the reader. Most people don't even know what the characters look like or keep their preferred image of the character firmly at hand, despite the author's protestations.  Don't worry about it.


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## dakota.potts (Oct 11, 2013)

The exposition of the character came and went without any need to explain a race. It may come up later, but I am going to try to flesh the character out with actions and maybe descriptions from other characters. There are no planned racial attributes and it wasn't at all related to other characters, so I'm going to let it just slide by for now. Others can picture Will different than I do. 

I may include it as it fits character description or development later but I won't fret over it.


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## Olly Buckle (Oct 11, 2013)

Tettsuo said:


> Yes, race matters.  Race plays a part in how the character behaves and how he/she reacts in certain situations.  Social pressures, stigmas and beliefs are woven into who we are and race influences how society treats us.
> 
> Given that, how the character stands (chest up, back straight vs slouched over) can be influenced by who's around him/her.  Maybe the person feels a bit intimidated by an older white man in an expensive business suit, so he shrinks back.  Maybe he's more awkward around a white girl, or better yet, maybe he's even more awkward around a black because he's had limited experience around them but thinks he shouldn't be.
> 
> It all plays a part in how the character behaves.


It is rarely that I say 'You are wrong', because things are rarely absolute, but it is not the person's race that forms our character and behaviour, it is experience, and that experience varies according to circumstance. Being of a particular race may or may not affect that experience depending on those around creating the experience and their perception of it, the experience will be different if you go to Harrow or Eton from the experience you have in Borough Hamlets community college and so will the person. Race may influence how we are treated, those it does influence will be influenced in wildly varied ways, and not every one will be influenced by it, it is a wild card that can be played in any way by an author.


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## The Tourist (Oct 11, 2013)

My opinion is that since political correctness the concept of race has been handled in ridiculous ways.

During the late sixties we had a horrible TV show called, "The Mod Squad."  Trashy period slang, and the tag-line was, "One black, one white, one blonde."  Things never got better.

In 2005 we had a movie with Mark Wahlberg entitled, "Four Brothers."  The premise was that four adopted kids of various races came together for yada, yada, 'the family of man.'  If they really had been tough, inner city kids they would have killed each other the first chance they got.

I never liked being told what to think, but every time Hollywood wants to make a social statement on race you find a ensemble right out of central casting.  But how many times have you really seen a white, a black, an Asian, a cross-gender couple (one girl-now-boy and one boy-now-girl) a Klansman and a Lithuanian fighting crime while struggling for centralized healthcare?

The idea of international love and a rousing rendition of Kumbaya was great on the original Star Trek TV show, but that was the mid 1960s.  I don't think we know how to intelligently include race into a modern story, and if we ever tried the apologists would put your head on a pike.


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## Myers (Oct 11, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> My opinion is that since political  correctness the concept of race has been handled in ridiculous  ways...



All that is beside the point. The OP only referred to race as a physical attribute, and specifically said she didn't want to call attention to it. Then she went on to say that she's decided to leave race out of it altogether, at least for now. Seems clear she has no intention of making any kind of social statement about race.


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## David Gordon Burke (Oct 11, 2013)

Does Race Matter?  
Read one Alex Cross novel by James Patterson.
Then again, you might have to read five before it dawns on you that Alex Cross and family are black.  
It's only relative if you make it relative.
(Sorry, I'm not American so I'm not sure what the correct PC term is ... no offense meant if my terminology is outdated.  Actually, Canadians are of all races are fairly unconcerned about race and Mexicans don't care who they insult so ... stuck in the middle)  

David Gordon Burke


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## Kevin (Oct 11, 2013)

dakota.potts said:


> I have a really cool character in a story that I almost have a feeling for more than the main character -- I don't know him better, he's just a cooler and more straightforward personality.
> 
> I instantly got an image in my head of him -- a young black man, early 20's, fairly tall and just big enough to not be skinny. Cargo pants, hoodies and converse shoes or boots for clothes (all worn and faded with muted colors). I'm thinking maybe a light mustache, and a distinguishing accent. For some reason I'm thinking something like British, French, Australian -- something unique, but still English based.
> 
> ...


 How do all these attributes (clothes, hair, age, race ) contribute to the story? Is there a specific culture? Why? I mean, how is it important? I'm not asking but if I were writing it, I would. Sometimes descriptions aren't included.


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## The Tourist (Oct 11, 2013)

Myers said:


> All that is beside the point. The OP only referred to race as a physical attribute, .



I understand.  I think the two seemingly differing elements go hand-in-hand.

For example, WWII cartoons of the Japanese were usually drawn with slits for eyes and aggressively prominent buck teeth.  A physical attribute made a racial statement.


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## Myers (Oct 11, 2013)

Not if the author doesn't mention it. And simply noting race doesn't make it a "racial statement" anyway.

Of course, why pass up an opportunity to climb up on the soapbox?


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## The Tourist (Oct 11, 2013)

Myers said:


> Not if the author doesn't mention it. And of course, simply noting race doesn't make it a "racial statement" anyway.



I'm with you 95% of the way.

The issue is that an authors' words are the readers' eyes.  When he makes a simple description of anything it conveys an idea.  For example, if you said something as simple as "a late 1960s Mopar," thousands of readers would immediately picture the muscle car era.  Frankly, a wheezy four-banger Dodge Dart was also built during that same period.

So when you describe things like olive oil skin, a stocky build, shiny black hair and coal black eyes you are describing my cousin Bobbie.  I have the same ethnic lineage, but I am a head taller, I have blue eyes and I was a toe head blond until the age of six.  Which one of us sounds like a mafia don?

Does the author have expectations of "form follows function"?  Does it even play a part in the overall tale, or does he just like tall willowy redheaded women?

The description will set the tone.


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## Myers (Oct 11, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> I'm with you 95% of the way.



I guess I can settle for that.


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## shadowwalker (Oct 11, 2013)

But again, just including the description does not mean one is being PC or making any kind of 'statement'. Some authors use descriptions, others don't. Some get very specific - others don't. I'm in the school of thought that descriptions should be left to the reader unless some particular detail is _needed_, like size in a fight scene. Other writers want the reader to see their characters exactly as they (the writers) do.


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## The Tourist (Oct 11, 2013)

shadowwalker said:


> But again, just including the description does not mean one is being PC or making any kind of 'statement'.



Possibly not, but something seemingly minor might convey something you did not intend.  Let me give you an example.

Let's say that you know nothing specific about the lead.  All you know is the school.  It's Grambling or Vassar.

Grambling infers a star ethnic male football player.  Vassar implies snooty, well connected, liberal white girl.

I think this stuff happens because we all have preconceived ideas when we begin to read.  Does Ian Fleming's work stand if all descriptions were deleted and we found out that James Bond was a freckle faced ginger Little Person weighing 72 pounds?


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## Tettsuo (Oct 11, 2013)

Olly Buckle said:


> It is rarely that I say 'You are wrong', because things are rarely absolute, but it is not the person's race that forms our character and behaviour, it is experience, and that experience varies according to circumstance.


At no point did I say race determines a persons character and/or behavior.  How society treats that person based on their perceived race can and often does influences behavior.


> Being of a particular race may or may not affect that experience depending on those around creating the experience and their perception of it, the experience will be different if you go to Harrow or Eton from the experience you have in Borough Hamlets community college and so will the person. Race may influence how we are treated, those it does influence will be influenced in wildly varied ways, and not every one will be influenced by it, it is a wild card that can be played in any way by an author.


Correction... race DOES affect a person's experience of themselves and the world around them if they are not a part of the majority.  If everyone around you is 7' tall, you have no concept of being 7' tall.  But, if you're the only 5' person in a crowd of 7' people, you will absolutely be influenced by that.  To say otherwise is foolish and the character would not come across as believable or accurate.

How we see ourselves is often based on the world around us, how people around us treat and react to us and thus how we fit into it.

I say all of that with a caveat - This is only relevant in today's (and the past) world.  A character created in a world where race is irrelevant, then none of the above applies.  But, if you are different from your society's norm, how that society treats you and how you see yourself will be affected.


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## The Tourist (Oct 11, 2013)

Tettsuo said:


> Correction... race DOES affect a person's experience of themselves and the world around them if they are *not* a part of the majority.



Well, I disagree with your inclusion of the word "not."  Race effects me, but positively.  Let me explain.

I never feel like a victim.  I have enough credit cards in my pocket to buy two full dress Harleys without a credit check.  I am never profiled for traffic stops--even this gray hair 'shields' me from harassment on the road by police.

I know powerful attorneys.  I know I will eat several healthy meals today.  I'll sleep warm.  I can get any type of insurance at any level with a telephone call.

Now, counter that with many ethnic groups.  My worst day would still be their best day.  With that mental outlook of "I can do anything" I approach jobs, politics and even flat tires with an entirely differing attitude.

Even when not conscious of my DNA, race effects me.


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## Tettsuo (Oct 11, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Well, I disagree with your inclusion of the word "not."  Race effects me, but positively.  Let me explain.
> 
> I never feel like a victim.  I have enough credit cards in my pocket to buy two full dress Harleys without a credit check.  I am never profiled for traffic stops--even this gray hair 'shields' me from harassment on the road by police.
> 
> ...


Our difference is only word usage.  If you're the majority, that treatment is the norm, the baseline so to speak.  That's way I didn't make mention of it.  Otherwise, I agree with your assessment.


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## The Tourist (Oct 11, 2013)

Tettsuo said:


> Our difference is only word usage.  If you're the majority, that treatment is the norm, the baseline so to speak.  That's way I didn't make mention of it.  Otherwise, I agree with your assessment.



To bring that full circle, how do we relate those ideas and concepts to our stories?

For example, there must be hundreds of top-flight African American thoracic surgeons.  In truth, I cannot name one, and I was a credit manager for a large hospital in the late 1970s.

No matter what our topic, it always boils down to effectively telling a tale.  And I have to be honest here, I do not know how I'd begin.


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## Tettsuo (Oct 11, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> No matter what our topic, it always boils down to effectively telling a tale.  And I have to be honest here, I do not know how I'd begin.


This is all about character development.  If you can't get in your character's head, how can you write about them?  You can't.  I'm sure that if you were to write about a Mexican American, you'd have to understand what it's like to be a Mexican in American.  Even more to the point, you'd have to understand what's it's like to be an outside in your own country.  Better still, understand what it's like to be different from the world around you.  Start there, because most people can relate to that feeling.  The rest is research into how negative stereotypes can influence a person's life.


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## Tettsuo (Oct 11, 2013)

I just want to add, race is a social construct.  There's only one actual race, the human race.  The term race has been misused for centuries.


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## Tyrannohotep (Oct 11, 2013)

Tettsuo said:


> This is all about character development.  If you can't get in your character's head, how can you write about them?  You can't.  I'm sure that if you were to write about a Mexican American, you'd have to understand what it's like to be a Mexican in American.  Even more to the point, you'd have to understand what's it's like to be an outside in your own country.  Better still, understand what it's like to be different from the world around you.  Start there, because most people can relate to that feeling.  The rest is research into how negative stereotypes can influence a person's life.


As a writer who specializes in speculative and historical fiction, I actually feel more confident in my ability to write characters from fantasy or historical settings than I am more contemporary characters. I could more easily write a Paleolithic African huntress living 100,000 years ago than I could a modern African-American teenager who lives in Brooklyn, for instance. If I were write about a real culture that still exists, I would run the risk of offending or misleading people if I get the slightest detail wrong about that culture's nuances. That is much less of a problem with people from extinct or completely made-up backgrounds.


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## Newman (Oct 11, 2013)

dakota.potts said:


> Does race matter in a story?



I would use it as a valuable tool. For one thing, it's a great way to accentuate "oppositeness." As in, your hero is from one world and goes into an opposite world.


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## D. E. Forester (Oct 11, 2013)

In the hands of a skilled author, _absolutely_.

The best authors should be able to take something like race and race issues and make them a valuable part of who a character is, for reasons that have already been described.

If a character is just written as "hey this guy's black but the topic never comes up in any context whatsoever", I'm more tempted to think that the writer either had no desire or had no ability to portray the issue effectively rather than come away with the impression that "this writing is so forward thinking".

If I wanted to mostly duck the subject, I would drop a reference somewhere that a character was being regarded a certain way IN SPITE OF their race, so the reader could actually tell that it wasn't just a lack of skill that prevented it from happening, but rather it was a conscious choice.


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## The Tourist (Oct 11, 2013)

Tyrannohotep said:


> I would run the risk of offending or misleading people if I get the slightest detail wrong about that culture's nuances.



And this is the portion of modern society that drives me nuts.  If you're telling the truth, who cares if they're offended?  Frankly, "being offended" seems to be a new past-time.

I was listening to the radio late one night, and someone made the statement, _"Not all Islamists are terrorists, but all terrorists are Islamists."_

Now, you know in your heart that thousands were offended by that and somebody, somewhere called Gloria Allred.  I don't care.

If someone in my cultural community was causing trouble for us all, I would confront the guy myself.  But when there is real wrong-doing going on, and no one does anything, then the race card is the coward's way out.

It's America, the 1A covers unpopular speech.  Deal with it.

And before you take me to task for some portion of my post, I'd like to know if you've ever told a Mafia joke.


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## Tettsuo (Oct 11, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> I was listening to the radio late one night, and someone made the statement, _"Not all Islamists are terrorists, but all terrorists are Islamists."_


Bit of a sidebar, but just to note, that's not true at all.  IRA would disagree with you.  Timothy McVeigh would disagree with you.  Pro-Life folks that harass and sometimes kill abortion doctors would disagree with you... etc.

In regards to the meat of your post, I agree.  If someone is offended by the truth, the truth isn't the problem.


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## The Tourist (Oct 11, 2013)

While I agree that there are many terrorist groups, I believe the overall discussion was middle-eastern politics.  But the overall premise is valid.

If treating one segment of society differently is racist, than anyone doing it is a bigot.  I always ask my black friends if they ever laughed watching "The Jeffersons"?  George used to refer to his white neighbor as 'honky.'

Yeah, I get some grins.  But the grins stop when I ask if they would still be laughing if the camera showed what his neighbor called him.  Not so funny then, is it?


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## shadowwalker (Oct 11, 2013)

D. E. Forester said:


> If a character is just written as "hey this guy's black but the topic never comes up in any context whatsoever", I'm more tempted to think that the writer either had no desire or had no ability to *portray the issue effectively*



Bolding mine

Now, tell me why it is an "issue" to be portrayed in any manner, effectively or otherwise. That right there is my biggest problem with attributing race to my characters - because it then becomes an issue when, in fact, it doesn't matter one bit. The character would still react to the situation I put him or her in in the same way. Why? Because they're an individual, not a 'race'.


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## Morkonan (Oct 11, 2013)

shadowwalker said:


> ...Now, tell me why it is an "issue" to be portrayed in any manner, effectively or otherwise. That right there is my biggest problem with attributing race to my characters - because it then becomes an issue when, in fact, it doesn't matter one bit. The character would still react to the situation I put him or her in in the same way. Why? Because they're an individual, not a 'race'.



I agree with the spirit of your post. But, I have to call your attention to something you wrote, earlier. If race is an issue in the story, then it's going to need some focus.. Paraphrased for expediency.

So, if we're writing about a young black man who has grown up in the depressed areas of town, rife with gang-violence, drugs, broken families and broken lives, we may have to portray them reacting "differently" to certain things, not only to be true to our Setting (The Present Day), but in order to contrast their experience of life in our culture with "ours" - Joe Normal.

So, the cops pull around the corner and our protagonist turns around and walks away from them. Why? Well, the protagonist will answer the Reader with an explanation how "Justice" isn't the same for him as it is for "White Folk." He's used to over-reacting cops who express their angst and apprehension through rough, no-nonsense treatment of people of his color and background. Sure, he just got profiled, but for him, it's a different experience than it would be for someone who wasn't black.

However, on primal issues, love, hate, fear, the basics of certain relationships, etc.. I agree - Human is human.


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## dakota.potts (Oct 11, 2013)

Wow, I never expected to spawn this much conversation. 

The idea of the story is that a "soul" has been discovered which is an entangled quantum network connected to the human nervous system. Inevitably somebody finds a way to weaponize it and decohere the quantum structure, causing total destruction of the person's essential being. The government begins using this, first to execute the worst offenders in the prison system, but then as a form of fear-based riot control as people rally against the use of the technology in that way. In that way, the message of the story is that we are all people united against a common cause. Who this character is (including race) may be more important later, but it has no effect on the character's decision to join the movement against the technology, which is where I'm at in the story. It's being written as an answer to a call for novella submissions (20,000-40,000 words) so I may not get into novel length exploration of each character, or I may as the story calls for it. 

I kind of see it in the same vein as Chekhov's Gun. If I'm going to explain his race, it should be used, in this case probably either for physical description or to expand on the character's story in some way.


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## Morkonan (Oct 11, 2013)

dakota.potts said:


> ... in this case probably either for physical description or to expand on the character's story in some way.



Always vote in favor of story.  No physical description is important unless there's something important _about_ it. The fat, but burly, guy is intimidating, just by his physical presence. The short guy might be pathetic, but if he's a captain of industry, he's Napoleon. The long haired brunette is sultry, just by having long brown hair. The frizzy headed (any other color) is either outspoken or out-of-sorts. The guy with the hawkish nose is either putting it into everyone's business or steering himself around, like a ship with a tiller. And, the guy or gal that just looks normal, with nothing too outstanding about them? Why, they're "Everyman," of course. There's no such thing as just a "regular physical description" of characters, not if you're writing for quality content.


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## shadowwalker (Oct 12, 2013)

Morkonan said:


> I agree with the spirit of your post. But, I have to call your attention to something you wrote, earlier. If race is an issue in the story, then it's going to need some focus.



If race is an issue, then yes - it has to have a focus. Race is rarely an issue in my stories because I don't write about races - I write about people. It's one of the reasons I rarely describe anything about my characters' physical appearance. It's just not important. Would I ever have a scene where profiling is used? Maybe, if I happened to be writing about a robbery or secret operation and one of the guys got stopped during the operation. But would I go into a "This is my personal history of what it's like to grow up black in America"? Highly unlikely, because that's not what the story would be about. I would use it as another roadblock for the characters, another ratcheting up of tension and suspense; only coincidentally the readers would then know the guy pulled over was black. So because it would be useful to the story, I would include such a scene, but not to show a character's race, and definitely not to dump a stereotypical background on him.


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## Newman (Oct 12, 2013)

dakota.potts said:


> The idea of the story is that a "soul" has been discovered which is an entangled quantum network connected to the human nervous system. Inevitably somebody finds a way to weaponize it and decohere the quantum structure, causing total destruction of the person's essential being. The government begins using this, first to execute the worst offenders in the prison system, but then as a form of fear-based riot control as people rally against the use of the technology in that way. In that way, the message of the story is that we are all people united against a common cause. Who this character is (including race) may be more important later, but it has no effect on the character's decision to join the movement against the technology, which is where I'm at in the story. It's being written as an answer to a call for novella submissions (20,000-40,000 words) so I may not get into novel length exploration of each character, or I may as the story calls for it.



In that case, it's kind of like Geordi La Forge in Star Trek. Doesn't matter.


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## The Tourist (Oct 12, 2013)

Technically, technically, technically, my story is about race.  It's the hook.

But here's an odd thought, I find that society is always trying to pigeon hole everyone, kind of a shorthand way of understanding thought, direction and preparing our own expectations.  In discussing race, we might be skirting the idea of "looking down" at a segment of society, but we also show displeasure in looking up the ladder, as well.

It's no secret I detest our area's limousine liberals, for example.

But here's some other things I've heard that I believe show an element of "racism up the ladder."

My college is in the Midwest, and after hearing an eastern seaboard dorm member whine constantly I was informed he was "from New York and probably Jewish."  When I was attracted to co-worker, a beautiful woman who eventually became my girl friend, another woman dismissed her as a "disco queen."  Asians have a lot of success locally in areas of schooling and business, but their internal family support is attributed to "tiger moms."

All of these examples are scorn based on differences.  We do it constantly, yet we call someone a bigot for looking down on someone while we use the same techniques ourselves gazing up.


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## Newman (Oct 12, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Technically, technically, technically, my story is about race.  It's the hook.
> 
> But here's an odd thought, I find that society is always trying to pigeon hole everyone, kind of a shorthand way of understanding thought, direction and preparing our own expectations.  In discussing race, we might be skirting the idea of "looking down" at a segment of society, but we also show displeasure in looking up the ladder, as well.
> 
> ...



Maximizing the in-group similarities.

Maximizing the out-group differences.

Everybody does it. Even within families.


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## ChooWhee (Oct 12, 2013)

dakota.potts said:


> What I don't want to do is call too much attention to it. I'm also tempted to leave skin tone descriptions entirely out of the equation all together to let the reader imagine every person as they will (within certain parameters for each) with no right or wrong answers. On the other hand, I have a pretty clear picture of him.
> What do you guys think? Am I over thinking it?



I get the impression your character's race is not an essential part of his personal story. So in that sense no it is not important. Its not like you are going to describe every "white" character's racial background or skin tone. But from the other point of view and like a lot of other people are saying, it can give your character a bit more complexity e.g. if he is from a minority ethnic background and that has been an issue growing up then it definitely is important. Up to you, in my opinion just do what feels natural, definitely don't add description that you feel uncomfortable doing or you feel might detract from the story. You can always just go for it, try with or without and then read through it once its done and judge whether things like that look natural and relevant in your book or not.


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## ppsage (Oct 12, 2013)

Here's the deal with writing fiction. You get to decide what's important. But something has to be.


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## Tettsuo (Oct 12, 2013)

As The Tourist stated earlier in the thread, whites in America (and most Western countries) have greater opportunity than others in different ethnic groups.  To ignore that, ignores so much of our reality.  Could you do it?  Sure.  But, I think you'll miss so much of the authenticity that goes along being a person of color, it may give the character a false reality to the readers.


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## Olly Buckle (Oct 12, 2013)

> whites in America (and most Western countries) have greater opportunity than others in different ethnic groups.


Like most absolute statements about race it is untrue, because these things are not determined by racial group  but by racial bias and there are always individuals who are unbiased, or more biased by class or money. This means it is not a false reality, but an unusual reality; not an uncommon thing in fiction.


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## Gargh (Oct 13, 2013)

I've been reading an article by poet Sean Haldane this week who remarked about his poetry that, 'If it moves you, or touches you, then I suppose that at some level the story or part of it is yours as well as mine —humanly ours.'

I had that in mind when I first read through this thread and thought perhaps it applied to this situation also; that in order for prose to be meaningful on some level then it must be relatable, and realism with regard to race could form part of that.

One difficulty with this though is that any racial profiling (as such as may affect a given character's life experience and subsequent attitudes) is culturally subjective and very relative, as is the way in which each person manages the effects. 

The other issue is that prose, unlike poetry, can go in to far greater detail and explain itself so that there is a decreased need to use linguistic or metaphorical shortcuts to tell the story, and far less room for misinterpretation. It also allows the writer freedom to expose and direct perceived cultural stereotypes or omissions. Words, and the emotions they elicit, change people — which is the beauty of being a writer. 

I, for instance, write a lot of stories with a female lead bias, primarily because I get fed up with not seeing enough of who I am reflected in society. So I write what I want to see with the (perhaps vain!) hope of reflecting something better into the world for other women and girls in the same situation. I strive to mix up stereotypically gendered attributes, emotions and situations to create a different background image for my stories.

What is pertinent for the OP from this is that whether I had this agenda or not, I would not even think twice about mentioning that my character is female. Why then would I stop at mentioning the colour of her skin or hair or eyes or anything that might racially identify her? All these things are just physical attributes of the character - it is their words, thoughts, actions and environment that deepen the reader's perception of them and create any cultural context.

Now, from that perception of my girl character, a narrow-minded person might make assumptions that 'all people with X' are also like my girl who has X, which is why _I_ am careful about what I do. However, a broader-minded person will only ascribe the attributes to that one character. Whose opinion do you care about, if any?  If it's the narrow-minded ones then you probably have an agenda you want to work out, like me. If it's the broader-minded ones then race and/or colour can just be another attribute used to describe your character, contextualised only if it becomes relevant. 

Again, in my travels today, I came across this quote, in an article regarding the plight of political cartoonists in Syria by Dr Robert Russell;

'We are lucky here in the United States to have a long list of honorable, intelligent and articulate humorists who every day labor to pry open our heads and fill us with the courage to face our fears and prejudices.'

This can be equally true of us as writers, whatever country we are in, and presumably why this thread has sparked such interest. Fiction has this amazing capacity to penetrate people's minds and resonate.


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