# "It works for me..."



## Bayview (Apr 21, 2018)

I'm a big proponent of the idea that different techniques will work for different writers and we should all just experiment until we find what works for us. It makes sense based on my experience and on what I hear from other writers. But...

What does "it works for me" actually mean? Most of us haven't achieved every single one of our goals in writing, and most of us, I assume, haven't given up on the goals we haven't yet achieved, so from that perspective it seems like _something_ about our current approach is not, in fact, working. Maybe it means "I am making visible progress with each day and am confident that I'm getting closer to my goal"... but how do we know that's not _false_ confidence?

Well, there are some goals that are pretty concrete. If your goal is to finish a first draft, I can see how it's not that hard to measure progress. Or if your goal is to sell to a certain market, it's pretty clear when you've achieved your goal. But most of those things seem more like steps along the path to a larger goal. That goal might be making a living as a writer, or producing a culturally significant work, or...?

Possibly I'm babbling. To make it a bit more concrete: I'm doing okay with my writing. I can reliably sell novels in my niche genre, I'm making reasonable money, I've sold to Big Five, I have no problem completing manuscripts. So from that perspective, what I'm doing "works for me". But I'd like to have publishers beating down my door, I'd like to hit best seller lists, I'd like to make MORE money, etc. So from that perspective, what I'm doing doesn't work for me. Maybe I need to try new things, or maybe I just need to keep grinding away and waiting for a breakthrough.

How do you guys decide whether to keep going with your current techniques and approaches? Have you ever done a full overhaul of your writing process? How did it go?


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## Sync (Apr 21, 2018)

Gawd yes, I did a grand overhaul of my writing, just to understand the inner workings better. How did it go? There were soooo many times I regretted what I was getting into, but I knew it was for the best to expand the market. 

Well done on your success. Thank you for the post.

Sync


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## bdcharles (Apr 21, 2018)

I am not really chasing money with my writing. Yes, the fact that I have daydreamed about sitting on the couch with that talk show host, you know the one, discussing the movie adaptation of my debut novel (_"A dazzling gem" _- the Guardian; _"A tour-de-force of the imagination"_ - LA Review of Books), well, let us leave that fact aside for the moment because that is my inner George Bernard Shaw's unreasonable man looking to convince the masses to my way of thinking. If I wanted to make alot of money from my writing now it is very possible that I would have to change it, and I simply don't want to do that. I would like to be published, but I want it to be on my terms. Whether this is a realistic goal or not is immaterial; it's the vision that's important at this stage in the game. So "what is working" for me is what is in service of that vision. The vision encompasses a particular style, a particular mental image of a created world and everything it it, and it is very possible that that stuff's not in vogue right now. I've changed my submission targets; I did fire off a goodish number to a crop of hot agencies and it became clear after a few dozen rejections that their areas and mine don't really intersect. Now I've changed my drop zone to regional indie publishers, sort of hoping to be the shot in the arm they say they're on the lookout for. But even if I sell thirty books and I see one person on the train reading one and the miniscule smattering of tweeters dedicated to all things me "gets" what I have tried to do, then it will have worked for me.

Of course if a big 5 publisher says "yes, but change this this and this" I will probably be all over it  I am looking into editorial services too now, but again, it must be the right fit.


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## Jack of all trades (Apr 21, 2018)

All the instances of "do what works for you" that I recall had to do with the actual writing process, which makes determining if it works pretty easy. (Working = Getting something written) 

As for having something that will sell well, that's a very nebulous thing. Until something sells well, it's impossible to know if it *would* sell well.

Is there something in particular that you're trying to accomplish with this thread? So far it doesn't seem like an advanced topic, but maybe I'm missing the point.


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## Bayview (Apr 21, 2018)

Sync said:


> Gawd yes, I did a grand overhaul of my writing, just to understand the inner workings better. How did it go? There were soooo many times I regretted what I was getting into, but I knew it was for the best to expand the market.
> 
> Well done on your success. Thank you for the post.
> 
> Sync



What kind of changes did you make? Did you follow a certain model, or just do a free-form examination?


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## Bayview (Apr 21, 2018)

bdcharles said:


> I am not really chasing money with my writing. Yes, the fact that I have daydreamed about sitting on the couch with that talk show host, you know the one, discussing the movie adaptation of my debut novel (_"A dazzling gem" _- the Guardian; _"A tour-de-force of the imagination"_ - LA Review of Books), well, let us leave that fact aside for the moment because that is my inner George Bernard Shaw's unreasonable man looking to convince the masses to my way of thinking. If I wanted to make alot of money from my writing now it is very possible that I would have to change it, and I simply don't want to do that. I would like to be published, but I want it to be on my terms. Whether this is a realistic goal or not is immaterial; it's the vision that's important at this stage in the game. So "what is working" for me is what is in service of that vision. The vision encompasses a particular style, a particular mental image of a created world and everything it it, and it is very possible that that stuff's not in vogue right now. I've changed my submission targets; I did fire off a goodish number to a crop of hot agencies and it became clear after a few dozen rejections that their areas and mine don't really intersect. Now I've changed my drop zone to regional indie publishers, sort of hoping to be the shot in the arm they say they're on the lookout for. But even if I sell thirty books and I see one person on the train reading one and the miniscule smattering of tweeters dedicated to all things me "gets" what I have tried to do, then it will have worked for me.
> 
> Of course if a big 5 publisher says "yes, but change this this and this" I will probably be all over it  I am looking into editorial services too now, but again, it must be the right fit.



You're right, of course - we all have different goals, and publication may not be the end goal for all of us. So would you say that you're totally satisfied with your writing now? You're creating the world you want to create, you're conveying it to others in the way you want it to be conveyed, everything's going really smoothly? (If so, I'm jealous!)


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## EmmaSohan (Apr 21, 2018)

My answer is simple: Do I like what I have written?

Or, if I am trying to create some effect -- do I create that effect in myself when I read? So a painful scene should be painful.

How to do that is of course a different issue.


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## Bayview (Apr 21, 2018)

EmmaSohan said:


> My answer is simple: Do I like what I have written?
> 
> Or, if I am trying to create some effect -- do I create that effect in myself when I read? So a painful scene should be painful.
> 
> How to do that is of course a different issue.



So you're just writing for yourself, or do you check with an audience of some sort to see if they find it as effective as you do?

(I feel like I'm grilling people - sorry! I'm just trying to sort through my ideas on this, and hoping that if I get a clearer idea of where other people are it will help me.)


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## bdcharles (Apr 21, 2018)

Bayview said:


> You're right, of course - we all have different goals, and publication may not be the end goal for all of us. So would you say that you're totally satisfied with your writing now? You're creating the world you want to create, you're conveying it to others in the way you want it to be conveyed, everything's going really smoothly? (If so, I'm jealous!)



I am about 90% totally satisfied now; as things stand, I would like to either rewrite or smarten up about 10% of it, give it the right voice and events and so on. That of course may change later, but at some point I need to draw a line under it. For now I am creating the world I want, and a sufficient number of like minded people are receiving it in the way I want them to.


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## EmmaSohan (Apr 21, 2018)

Bayview said:


> So you're just writing for yourself, or do you check with an audience of some sort to see if they find it as effective as you do?
> 
> (I feel like I'm grilling people - sorry! I'm just trying to sort through my ideas on this, and hoping that if I get a clearer idea of where other people are it will help me.)



I have trouble finding an audience. Some people like my writing; some don't seem as interested. I like my short stories a lot more than the judges do. Maybe that's meaningful, maybe I am writing the wrong genre, maybe, maybe. Maybe my writing has some fundamental flaw I cannot see. Maybe I am writing for readers who don't exist. It's really frustrating and I give up.

But I don't know what I can do about that. Write stories I don't like? At least I can read my book for the 20th time and still love it.


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## Bayview (Apr 21, 2018)

EmmaSohan said:


> I have trouble finding an audience. Some people like my writing; some don't seem as interested. I like my short stories a lot more than the judges do. Maybe that's meaningful, maybe I am writing the wrong genre, maybe, maybe. Maybe my writing has some fundamental flaw I cannot see. Maybe I am writing for readers who don't exist. It's really frustrating and I give up.
> 
> But I don't know what I can do about that. Write stories I don't like? At least I can read my book for the 20th time and still love it.



Yeah, it's difficult to figure out, especially if you aren't getting feedback from judges about what they do/don't like.

I know you're really analytical about writing, and that's the opposite of my instincts, but I've been wondering if I need to push past my instincts and GET more analytical in order to improve, but it just feels wrong! But then, it feels wrong to keep doing the same thing over and over if the same thing isn't getting me where I want to be...

You're right - really frustrating!


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## EmmaSohan (Apr 21, 2018)

Bayview said:


> I know you're really analytical about writing



I am, but . . . I just keep rewriting my awesome moments until I get them the way I *like*. Then I step back and analyze. But without the feelings of what I liked or didn't like, I would have nothing.

Then I look at how other writers handle their awesome moments. And when they don't follow my formula, are they wrong or is this some exciting exception? The only way I can answer that is by my feelings.

So I live in a clean, orderly, interesting, lonely world.


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## SueC (Apr 21, 2018)

> But I don't know what I can do about that. Write stories I don't like? At least I can read my book for the 20th time and still love it.



Emma! There was a time when I would try to align myself with an agent, or publisher, and one of the questions asked was _what famous author do you write like? _When I saw that question, I would abandon the contact. I write like ME. And sometimes, even after years, when I read a passage that made me cry the first time I wrote it, and I still can cry, I know I am being true to myself.

IMO, I think it is impossible to write for someone else, but that is the dilemma we face, isn't it? Writing for me is very emotional. I am there, in my character's skin, feeling everything I throw at her. I simply cannot not do this, and at that moment, it doesn't really matter if anyone else likes it, or sees it, or feels it as I do. Sometimes I just have to put those words down, and I feel grateful that I can do that, that I can evoke an emotion with mere words.

NEVER WRITE STORIES YOU DON'T LIKE! You are awesome just the way you are.


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## Sync (Apr 21, 2018)

Bayview said:


> What kind of changes did you make? Did you follow a certain model, or just do a free-form examination?



Once you change something in your writing, it effects everything. 

I did a step by step sort of change. But not based on any model.


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## Bayview (Apr 21, 2018)

Sync said:


> Once you change something in your writing, it effects everything.
> 
> I did a step by step sort of change. But not based on any model.



So were they content-based changes? Like, "I'm going to write more conventional heroes"... or structural changes, like "I'm going to follow the three act structure more closely"... or process-changes, like "I'm going to do scene-by-scene outlines and stick to them"...?


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## Sync (Apr 21, 2018)

I have a hard time with rules when it comes to writing. Content based? Nah, I've always let my writing have free rein. Structural changes? I went from short stories to novel. Yup. Outlines for me are just outlines. Some path marked in doesn't need to be traveled. Every character doesn't have to live. But, I learnt the importance of having an outline when writing a novel. 

I tried a first bang at it during a Nano. Great way to practice anything big. 50k words, just to see if possible, or if what changed is working/workable. 

I figured it was, so carried on. 

If you are changing something in yours,

best writing to you

Thanks for the discussion

Sync


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## Theglasshouse (Apr 21, 2018)

> Originally Posted by *EmmaSohan*
> 
> I have trouble finding an audience. Some people like my writing; some don't seem as interested. I like my short stories a lot more than the judges do. Maybe that's meaningful, maybe I am writing the wrong genre, maybe, maybe. Maybe my writing has some fundamental flaw I cannot see. Maybe I am writing for readers who don't exist. It's really frustrating and I give up.
> 
> ...



Read what you like to write, more of it, and make it a routine maybe and perhaps a novel or short story could be written from having had that experience. Agreed with Bayview's post by the way or the reply and reaction.


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## Terry D (Apr 23, 2018)

Bayview said:


> I'm a big proponent of the idea that different techniques will work for different writers and we should all just experiment until we find what works for us. It makes sense based on my experience and on what I hear from other writers. But...
> 
> What does "it works for me" actually mean? Most of us haven't achieved every single one of our goals in writing, and most of us, I assume, haven't given up on the goals we haven't yet achieved, so from that perspective it seems like _something_ about our current approach is not, in fact, working. Maybe it means "I am making visible progress with each day and am confident that I'm getting closer to my goal"... but how do we know that's not _false_ confidence?
> 
> ...



Wow, big topic. Great discussion. When I use the phrase, "It works for me" I mean the story, or technique, or structure achieves a result that suits my inner critique; that snarky little guy who sits on my shoulder and is more than willing to point out how my writing differs from all the 'good' books and stories I've read. I've found that when I please that guy, my stories and books seem to please other people as well.

I have no firm goals -- probably a reason for my very limited 'success'. What you have achieved is light years ahead of where I am. I'd like to think that I have a few books left in me that might be marketable, but only time will tell. My approach to writing has evolved over the years. I used to 'story-board' my books, carefully laying out scenes on 3 X 5 cards and organizing them on cork-board. Both books I organized like that died on the vine at about 20 or 30,000 words. Now I jot down some scene ideas in a note book more or less in order for the 1st half my book and use them as a reference until the book gets cooking. I've completed two novels using this method. Stylistically I keep trying new things, playing with POV, tense, and even structure. Some stick, some do not. The aspect of writing I most need to develop is my approach to marketing my work. I'm terrible at trying to sell what I write. Part of the job of anyone who wants to be a professional writer is attacking the marketplace, be it through self publishing, or acquiring an agent or publisher. I make excuses for not submitting my work; my first book was a horror novel, a vampire story with a unique twist, but I convinced myself that vampires are passe' so no one would take it on. I sent it to one publisher, was rejected, and self-published, where it has been well reviewed if not well purchased. My second book ended up being over 200,000 words and conventional wisdom says no publisher, or agent, is going to want to take on a book of that size from an unknown author. I never submitted it at all, though it is a very good book (at least that little guy on my shoulder tells me it is).

As far as your situation goes, are there books from your genre which have 'gone big'? If so, perhaps your time will come. But, if not, maybe a subtle -- or not so subtle -- shift in focus might help? You obviously have the writing skills and that's the really hard part, you just need to use them to develop the right idea, that singular concept which the world doesn't yet know it wants.


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## Bayview (Apr 23, 2018)

Terry D said:


> Wow, big topic. Great discussion. When I use the phrase, "It works for me" I mean the story, or technique, or structure achieves a result that suits my inner critique; that snarky little guy who sits on my shoulder and is more than willing to point out how my writing differs from all the 'good' books and stories I've read. I've found that when I please that guy, my stories and books seem to please other people as well.



Yeah, that little guy must be useful! I don't think I really have one of those, or maybe my guy is just kinda a bastard... everything I write, he says, "Meh. Fine, I guess. Whatever." Kinda hard to sort the wheat from the chaff with that kind of feedback, little guy!



> The aspect of writing I most need to develop is my approach to marketing my work. I'm terrible at trying to sell what I write.



This is a good point - there's a lot more to writing "success" than just writing! And I'm definitely not good at the non-writing part. But I'd really like to think there's something about the writing that could be changed, too...



> As far as your situation goes, are there books from your genre which have 'gone big'? If so, perhaps your time will come. But, if not, maybe a subtle -- or not so subtle -- shift in focus might help? You obviously have the writing skills and that's the really hard part, you just need to use them to develop the right idea, that singular concept which the world doesn't yet know it wants.



I write het romance as well as m/m, so, yeah, for sure, there are books from that genre that have gone HUGE. And authors who have written books in a long series that are all gobbled up by ravenous fans. Not something I've experience personally!

I think there may be a "good is the enemy of great" element to my angst... I'm doing _o__kay_, so there isn't the same level of drive, maybe, to seek the next level. And it feels risky, like I might change things and make everything WORSE rather than better.

But I don't think my writing is as strong as I want it to be. I mean, on the sentence level, I make myself understood and have a basic serviceable style, but I'm not crafting immortal prose. And on a larger scale, I'm not sure things are as... as _tight_, maybe... as I want them to be. The twists aren't as shocking, the characterization not quite as deep, the settings not as vivid as they are in my imagination. 

Maybe it's all just angst. But when I read other people who seem really satisfied with their process but not satisfied with their results (at least in terms of external validation) it makes me wonder. My current process "works for me" in terms of producing what I'm currently producing. But is there something else that would work better to allow me to produce what I want to produce?

(And if there _is_ something else, I'd appreciate it if someone could tell me what the hell it is!!! I was hoping people might be able to tell me things they've done that revolutionized their writing, but I'm not getting many concrete suggestions yet...)


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## Terry D (Apr 23, 2018)

Sometimes the key is to turn your genre on it's head. Diana Gabbledon did that with her _Outlander_ series. Is it an historical romance? Science fiction. Alternate reality? Or something else? By mashing all those together she created her own niche.

As far as concrete suggestions go, I'll do a little 'spit-balling' here. You could try writing what you write (maybe even start with old manuscript) by try writing it in a different style. How would a m-m romance sound if Hemingway wrote it? Or Raymond Chandler? Or Ray Bradbury? By writing in a very distinct, and very different (that's why all my suggestions are male), style you might find avenues to expand your own voice. The same could be done for pacing -- try pacing a romance like a hard-boiled detective novel. It will probably sound like crap, but something might actually connect with you. I don't think it's about changing the tools in your toolkit, but getting more of them and learning how to use the ones you have in different ways.

A couple of years ago I was pulling together some old short stories to publish in a collection. I'd already decided that I was going to link all the stories together with one over-arching story, like Ray Bradbury did in The Illustrated Man. I wasn't happy with the total word count, I don't like self-published 'books' that are no more than chapbooks. I want to give readers a real read. So, I decided to write a new story for the collection (I actually ended up writing two) and I used that story as an homage to Bradbury (this was shortly after his death). I decided to write it in a style as close to Bradbury's whimsical voice as I could get. I put my inner critic in a box for a few days and let the words roll. My typical style is very linear, very concise, and very straight forward. So it wasn't easy for me to start a story with this:

It was banana o'clock on May thirty-seventh when Brian Bruce Titus Summerland's new and best friend spoke for the very first time.

I didn't manage to write the story in Bradbury's style (nobody is going to confuse O'Goody with, The Jar), but what I ended up with was a really cool story far different from what I usually write. I had a terrific time and now I know I have that tool in my kit.

You grow when you leave your comfort zone. That's good advice for new writers and for old farts like me too. Bradbury himself said it best:


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## moderan (Apr 24, 2018)

Yah, even though Outlander is virtually unreadable for me. I can only encounter the phrase "with a gimlet eye" once in a series without throwing up a little in my mouth. I heard her speak once (Gabaldon is from Phoenix) and it was soporific. But she certainly sells books.
People from my niche are blowing up. I'm too far down the totem pole, though I know these people to speak to and interact with them regularly (two such folks have been interviewed on thew here website -- the VanderMeers and Willie Meikle). Annihilation and They Remain are great films. A few more are coming up. All that's done so far is to create a glut of entry-level writers, who sub like crazy and adhere most stringently (and pungently) to Sturgeon's Law. Some few will continue on after the glut subsides ( If not, we will send Wrath James White to deal with them) New venues for short work are popping up -- the revivals of Weirdbook, Startling Stories, and, most recently, Amazing Stories are good signs of a market with legs. 


> I don't like self-published 'books' that are no more than chapbooks.


I resemble this remark 
But in the 'weird' world, chapbooks are big sellers. I just sold a Bradbury-inspired story, a sequel to my novella "The Forgotten God," in which the protagonist grows giant mushrooms in his cellar. Part of it is in the workshop as "Sporn."
I'd like to say that I'm satisfied by my process and results, but I'm not. Illness keeps me from being as prolific as I'd like and it's hard to make a dent if you don't always have product in-market. So I'm trying the quality over quantity route with mixed success, and branching back out into specfic and hard sf and a limited bit of noir. It works for me.


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## Terry D (Apr 24, 2018)

moderan said:


> I resemble this remark



Sorry. I'm old. My skin is thin (not to suggest I'm thin-skinned) and my prejudices poke out all over like compound fractures of the attitude. I'm also unforgivably ignorant about the current state of the genre markets -- hell, I still know what SASE means.


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## moderan (Apr 24, 2018)

Terry D said:


> Sorry. I'm old. My skin is thin (not to suggest I'm thin-skinned) and my prejudices poke out all over like compound fractures of the attitude. I'm also unforgivably ignorant about the current state of the genre markets -- hell, I still know what SASE means.


Help stamp out envelopes


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## EmmaSohan (Apr 24, 2018)

Bayview said:


> The twists aren't as shocking, the characterization not quite as deep, the settings not as vivid as they are in my imagination.



If you have a story in your mind, and you put down all the information I need, I can get the same story in mind and enjoy it as much as you did.

But that doesn't mean I had that experience _when I read_. I can point out a wonderful line in _Twilight _which was much better when I thought about it than when I read it. (She buried the awesome line in the middle of a paragraph.) Or, there are scenes that are much better when I read them than when I try to imagine them after (The first appearance of Dumbledore.)

And of course, your readers are usually reading, not replaying a scene.

I mention this because you are kind of saying that your scenes are underperforming.


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## bdcharles (Apr 25, 2018)

Bayview said:


> Yeah, that little guy must be useful! I don't think I really have one of those, or maybe my guy is just kinda a bastard... everything I write, he says, "Meh. Fine, I guess. Whatever." Kinda hard to sort the wheat from the chaff with that kind of feedback, little guy!
> 
> ...
> 
> (And if there _is_ something else, I'd appreciate it if someone could tell me what the hell it is!!! I was hoping people might be able to tell me things they've done that revolutionized their writing, but I'm not getting many concrete suggestions yet...)



On the one hand you say you've sold to Big 5 publishers; on the other you're not satisfied. Likewise, I on the one hand am somewhat unqualified to advise you, my sole publishing credential being a short story on the front page of a fantasy writing website; on the other I think I may actually have the answer. Or at least I can share my thoughts on my own writing and you can see if they pertain in any way to you.

For me, it comes down to standards. Unforgiving, crucifying, punitive standards. When your little guy on your shoulder says "meh, whatever", you should listen to him. Because, basically, it's not him saying that. It's you. My internal critic is like a bastard lovechild of Simon Cowell and Sue Sylvester from Glee with probably a tinpot dictator or two thrown in to soften the blow. Anything crap is exposed, unceremoniously, as crap. Beauty is revered, genius sought. All else is failure. The aim is to excite yourself with your text, to blow yourself away. Life is too short to burn time on something you are not madly passionate about, so passionate that it puts others' so-called "interests" to shame, so much so that anything that doesn't live up those standards is at best worthless pap, and at worst, liable to make you punch your laptop into the wall in a palpitating rage. Yes it will make you a diva, utterly unbearable to be around, but that's what's required to make the art work, and if you care enough about the art, you will do it because when it comes right, oh, boy. When it comes right and you create something amazing, those are good, good times.


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## Bayview (Apr 26, 2018)

bdcharles said:


> On the one hand you say you've sold to Big 5 publishers; on the other you're not satisfied. Likewise, I on the one hand am somewhat unqualified to advise you, my sole publishing credential being a short story on the front page of a fantasy writing website; on the other I think I may actually have the answer. Or at least I can share my thoughts on my own writing and you can see if they pertain in any way to you.
> 
> For me, it comes down to standards. Unforgiving, crucifying, punitive standards. When your little guy on your shoulder says "meh, whatever", you should listen to him. Because, basically, it's not him saying that. It's you. My internal critic is like a bastard lovechild of Simon Cowell and Sue Sylvester from Glee with probably a tinpot dictator or two thrown in to soften the blow. Anything crap is exposed, unceremoniously, as crap. Beauty is revered, genius sought. All else is failure. The aim is to excite yourself with your text, to blow yourself away. Life is too short to burn time on something you are not madly passionate about, so passionate that it puts others' so-called "interests" to shame, so much so that anything that doesn't live up those standards is at best worthless pap, and at worst, liable to make you punch your laptop into the wall in a palpitating rage. Yes it will make you a diva, utterly unbearable to be around, but that's what's required to make the art work, and if you care enough about the art, you will do it because when it comes right, oh, boy. When it comes right and you create something amazing, those are good, good times.



But what do you DO? When you say you have to have high standards - okay, fine, but what do you DO if your work doesn't meet those standards? If I just rewrite things, I think I'm going to be rewriting them in the same quality they already are.


Also, sorry, this wasn't meant to be a HELP BAYVIEW thread! (although I appreciate and am considering at all the suggestions).

I was more interested in the general question of how people decide when their process and their writing is good enough. It seems like most people are going by internal standards? Does that sound right? People know "it works" when they produce work they're pleased with. So they don't feel the need to change what they're doing because it works to their personal satisfaction.

Which I think makes sense as long as these people aren't too worried about publishing/selling and/or are also publishing/selling at a level that satisfies them. Back to myself (just as an example, not as an attempt to switch the focus of the conversation again!) I'm dissatisfied with my writing AND with my publishing/sales, so that makes it clear to me that I need to change something, but I'm still trying to figure out what. But other people, it seems, are only dissatisfied with their publishing/sales, not with their writing, and that seems like it would be really frustrating, because they have no control over the part of the process they needs to change...

Is it just a question of faith at that point? Keep doing things the way you've been doing them and eventually the sales will come? But... how do you know there isn't something you should change? How do you know you couldn't do better if you tried.... something?


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## bdcharles (Apr 26, 2018)

Bayview said:


> But what do you DO? When you say you have to have high standards - okay, fine, but what do you DO if your work doesn't meet those standards? If I just rewrite things, I think I'm going to be rewriting them in the same quality they already are.



I write til I'm happy with the quality. I realise this isn't "doing" anything that other people aren't doing, but that's my approach and representitive of something internal to me. And I say this as someone who has not had sales or success like yours, so it's of limited use really 



Bayview said:


> I'm dissatisfied with my writing AND with my publishing/sales, so that makes it clear to me that I need to change something, but I'm still trying to figure out what. But other people, it seems, are only dissatisfied with their publishing/sales, not with their writing, and that seems like it would be really frustrating, because they have no control over the part of the process they needs to change...
> 
> Is it just a question of faith at that point? Keep doing things the way you've been doing them and eventually the sales will come? But... how do you know there isn't something you should change? How do you know you couldn't do better if you tried.... something?



I suspect alot of it is luck, or knowing people, or being cognizant of emerging trends, and writing to that. Failing that, I have no answers - I'm looking for some myself. Perhaps MRUs, scene clocks and snowflake methods hold the solutions...


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## Patrick (Apr 26, 2018)

What isn't birthed in pain isn't organic. Nothing is ever a finished project, just an abandoned one. Novels make some sense internally or they do not. Characters can be imagined or they cannot. A broad study of literature will result in  somebody who, if they can humble themselves, will never stop tearing themselves and their work apart in order to write something different (hopefully better). If you cannot read a piece of fiction and immediately understand what the writer is good at, then you need to read more and you need to read better literature. Before you can do that, you won't be very good at analysing the strengths and weaknesses of your own writing. Furnish your mind with beauty and you'll have a chance to create a spartan table with equal-length legs at the first attempt. I said a chance for a reason. All the fiction I read or write myself is a failure I recognise easily, the imagination's failed gestation. One aspect or another is always infirm and fatal to the organism. But some fiction manages a small, dying pulse before it gives up in a gelatinous, indefinite pool on the operating table, and can count itself a success in becoming less of a miasma than its many, many failed brothers and sisters.


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## Theglasshouse (Apr 26, 2018)

Maybe being original or speaking on world themes, such how to stop the current messes we are in because of world politics (originality can come from the present times it seems: example some writers want to write about a Trump-like character as literary fiction). This can attract attention. Just maybe if you create a reputation in one of those two. People want to escape anyways from reality. Why not get great reviews by writing this particular way of concerns? I know there's much more I could sense people want. Originality has been a staple supposedly of some writer's success and maybe even voice (Edgar was very original and his work has resonated long afterward and is memorable; created the first detective novel). Then themes that speak to readers that are popular, could be interesting to explore. Some people think culture is a good way to attract attention. I thought, for example, the movie girl gone was decent and was based on a book. But it speaks to an audience that exists. Most people who read are female and not male. That's a cultural movie imo. But I am not sure why it succeeded as it did. But studies have been done that culture and stories can immerse a reader more. I bought a book collecting dust for these reasons. It's full of jargon, that I bought a while back.


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## Terry D (Apr 26, 2018)

^ Hi, Patrick. Good to see you dropping by!


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## bdcharles (Apr 26, 2018)

Terry D said:


> ^ Hi, Patrick. Good to see you dropping by!



Seconded. What's happening with _The Amarant Flowers_?


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## Ralph Rotten (Apr 26, 2018)

First off: good thread from Bayview.


I did actually reevaluate how I wrote some years ago. Although I wrote functionally well, the hole in my swing was that I did not write character-driven stories, I wrote story-driven stories.  In fact, at that time I didn't even have a clear understanding of how character development and illustration was done.  Sure, I could sound like the guy on the 5 o'clock news, but my characters were flat and devoid of development.

So even tho I was selling my non-fiction articles to major magazines, my fiction was gathering dust.  After being beat up on a lotta reviews and rejections, I set aside writing for a few years and studied characters and popular fiction in many forms of media.*  By the time I started writing again I had a better understanding of what I was doing. Now I get good reviews for my characters.  

I gotta say, if you wanna study character development then look at how Grisham does it.  His technique is pretty simple, but sells sooo many books.



*code for binge-watching a lotta stuff on Netflix


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## Patrick (Apr 26, 2018)

bdcharles said:


> Seconded. What's happening with _The Amarant Flowers_?



It proves to be an ever-changing beast. In fact, it is provisionally titled, "By The Ravens" now. Part of the reason for my absence has been a redoubling of my efforts to drive toward completion. I am approaching ninety thousand hard-fought words of a prospective one hundred and forty thousand. For all my efforts, she refuses to be pot-bound by my ridiculous attempts to reduce her growth; I am having to grow around her to maintain control. I hope to finish this draft by September, but I suspect I will need more time. And then I do not know how long I will take to edit the manuscript before I allow anybody else to see it.


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## Jack of all trades (Apr 26, 2018)

There are some basic questions to be asked.

What do you like to read? 

What do you like about it?

Does your own writing give you a similar (in intensity) feeling of enjoyment?

If you really, really like what you write, then that enjoyment is something no one else can take away from you. (Just be sure it's backed up or you can lose it.) 

After you really, really like it, you can look at it from the external perspective. What do your beta readers say about it? 

Too many ignore feedback that doesn't reinforce personal beliefs. I think that's short sighted. Even one member here whose critique style I didn't like usually pointed to problem spots, so there was valuable info provided. So give thought to feedback, even when you don't follow the advice.

But if you already feel a piece is "meh", ask yourself why you feel that way. Pinpoint, as best you can, the weak areas. And have it beta read. I like non-writers for my beta readers. Writers too often want to put their own personality into a piece. Those who just read for pleasure don't use proper terminology, but the insights are more on target, in my experience. 

Pretty much each one of us has something different we are looking for in writing, which is writing to please some specific person is rarely good. At the end of the day, it's your work. You need to be satisfied with it.


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## Bayview (Apr 26, 2018)

Just to clarify - 

_Everybody_ else here is eventually satisfied with their writing? You work at it, you perfect it, and by the time you're done, you're satisfied with it (at least some of it)?

I'm the only one who can't seem to hit that stage?


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## EmmaSohan (Apr 26, 2018)

Bayview said:


> Just to clarify -
> 
> _Everybody_ else here is eventually satisfied with their writing? You work at it, you perfect it, and by the time you're done, you're satisfied with it (at least some of it)?
> 
> I'm the only one who can't seem to hit that stage?



I have studied grammar enough to know that most people don't know half of the things they can do (or destroy) with it. But they are all satisfied with their grammar. And I was very satisfied with my first book at the time, though I can't get that feeling now. So being satisfied with one's own writing, as good as that feels, has its problems.

Being unsatisfied can be destructive. I can't work on my WIP because I can't see how I can turn it into a great story. But dissatisfaction is also the path to being better, right? In a way, it's a necessary part of editing.

So, yes, you might be the only one here who's dissatisfied with her writing. Embrace it.


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## Jack of all trades (Apr 26, 2018)

EmmaSohan said:


> I have studied grammar enough to know that most people don't know half of the things they can do (or destroy) with it. But they are all satisfied with their grammar. And I was very satisfied with my first book at the time, though I can't get that feeling now. So being satisfied with one's own writing, as good as that feels, has its problems.
> 
> Being unsatisfied can be destructive. I can't work on my WIP because I can't see how I can turn it into a great story. But dissatisfaction is also the path to being better, right? In a way, it's a necessary part of editing.
> 
> So, yes, you might be the only one here who's dissatisfied with her writing. Embrace it.



There is so very much more to be satisfied or dissatisfied with than mere grammar!

To answer Bayview's question : 

When I finished my first book, I wasn't totally satisfied with it. I was encouraged to publish it by those who had read it and praised it. So I did. But something nagged at me. So I didn't promote it, and then pulled it. I joined a writing forum, not this one, to try to learn more. It was difficult, as no one who thought of themselves as good writers wanted to share their wisdom, but I did learn, mostly from giving critiques and reading the critiques of others on those same pieces. Occasionally a discussion would mention something that I would look up, and learn that way, too. And then there were the beta readers, and the discussions I had with them, trying to pinpoint the problem spots. It all paid off. I was able to improve that book.

Flash forward to now, and applying all I have gathered over the past seven or so years, yeah, I'm pretty satisfied with my writing. When I'm not, I know that spot needs work. I want to publish the series together,  so I haven't tested the publication waters since feeling more confident, but at least I enjoy reading my work.


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## Patrick (Apr 27, 2018)

Bayview said:


> Just to clarify -
> 
> _Everybody_ else here is eventually satisfied with their writing? You work at it, you perfect it, and by the time you're done, you're satisfied with it (at least some of it)?
> 
> I'm the only one who can't seem to hit that stage?



We can only speak in degrees of satisfaction. I read so many styles very different to my own and think I should be writing more like 'that', which is just the novel doing its job. When I read my own work, however, I am reminded that I cannot manufacture a voice. I might be impressed by somebody who's very gritty and clinical in their prose, and while I can learn and take the best of that author, my style will always be different. My prose will always be concerned with elegance and beauty, because beyond the theory, beyond the rules and the debates, that's what my soul gravitates toward when I write. I could wish I were otherwise, but it would only be violence to the self. So I learn from everyone and recognise what other authors do better than myself, and then I try to write the sort of book only I can write. There's a tension to be held between being dissatisfied and also recognising the merits of your own writing. The dissatisfaction fuels the growth, and the recognition of merit gives one the courage to keep going.


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## Terry D (Apr 27, 2018)

Bayview said:


> Just to clarify -
> 
> _Everybody_ else here is eventually satisfied with their writing? You work at it, you perfect it, and by the time you're done, you're satisfied with it (at least some of it)?
> 
> I'm the only one who can't seem to hit that stage?



'Satisfied' is a tough word. Any time I pick up one of my books, or stories, I always enjoy the hell out of it and am proud of it. On the other hand, I always see things I wish I could go back and change; sometimes they are big things, sometimes just a phrase I wish I could have back, or a plot development that comes to mind now that would have been slightly better than the choice I made. So, no, I'm never completely satisfied with my writing, but I firmly believe each story has its own life-cycle, and at a particular point in its growth the author just has to say, "It's ripe," and pluck it off its vine.


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## moderan (Apr 27, 2018)

Bayview said:


> Just to clarify -
> 
> _Everybody_ else here is eventually satisfied with their writing? You work at it, you perfect it, and by the time you're done, you're satisfied with it (at least some of it)?
> 
> I'm the only one who can't seem to hit that stage?



Nope. "I'd like to say that I'm satisfied by my process and results, but I'm not."

Never ever. Can always improve. Beta readers, story exchanges, editor's requirements, they all work to improve the product. 
Often respondents here are not result-oriented (read 'sell their work') and it shows. There are hurdles that you have to get over, common experiences involved in publishing your work. But in this age, experience counts the same as babble, and you have to have a certain set of eyes to 'get it'.


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## Jack of all trades (Apr 27, 2018)

To clarify my earlier remarks, I'm not saying I'm satisfied the first writing. It does take editing. But I do get there.


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## Ralph Rotten (Apr 27, 2018)

Bayview said:


> Just to clarify -
> 
> _Everybody_ else here is eventually satisfied with their writing? You work at it, you perfect it, and by the time you're done, you're satisfied with it (at least some of it)?
> 
> I'm the only one who can't seem to hit that stage?




I can be satisfied with a piece of work for short term, but I am always wanting to write something better in the next project.  
I take a very active approach to improving my writing.  Writing a NYT best seller is one of the few remaining items on my bucket list.  

I am more satisfied with my writing than I am with the success of my writing.  Y'know?


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