# However Grim



## urbandekay (Aug 19, 2017)

(Be harsh dear friends, be harsh!)

Just what it was no one would say,
But it lurked in the corner, in its usual way,
Born of an absence; a moments delay,
And nurtured on silence by the things we don’t say,
Lay sharpening its claws,
While they feigned all was well,
Growing extra teeth and several new jaws,
Watching, and waiting all daynight long,

GETTING BIG, GETTING CLEVER, GETTING STRONG!

So, they tore out their eyes and stuffed up their ears,
Hid in the cupboard and cursed all their fears,
Or smoked the whole bottle and drowned it in beers,
And they fed it and fed it and fed it for years.
They teased it and pleased it and jeered in its face,
And fed it some more on their rows and their tears,
Then they beat it and cut it and shut it outdoors,
So it planned and it plotted and crept back on all fours,
It shut all the exits and bolted the doors,
Put on silk gloves and dressed up like whores,
Polished its voice by oiling its chords,
And whispered so softly…

TAKE ME I’M YOURS!


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## jenthepen (Aug 19, 2017)

This is, I think, a deceptively simple poem which, if I'm right, is about the niggling incompatible elements of many relationships that are never discussed but allowed to fester and grow. ?

It is enjoyable to read aloud and has enough mysterious little twists to make it fascinating and intriguing.

Only the last four lines of the first stanza caused a bit of a blip in an otherwise smooth progress of rhythm and rhyme. I don't know if this was deliberate?

Anyway, thanks for posting this. It's one of those poems that begs to be read over and over. I almost know it off by heart now! 


By the way, I love the username! It's gonna be shortened, you know. Urb?


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## urbandekay (Aug 19, 2017)

jenthepen said:


> This is, I think, a deceptively simple poem which, if I'm right, is about the niggling incompatible elements of many relationships that are never discussed but allowed to fester and grow. ?


You are of course correct; specifically, it was about the interaction of a group of house share mates with whom I was friends. 





jenthepen said:


> It is enjoyable to read aloud and has enough mysterious little twists to make it fascinating and intriguing.
> 
> Only the last four lines of the first stanza caused a bit of a blip in an otherwise smooth progress of rhythm and rhyme. I don't know if this was deliberate?


Could you be more specific, I don’t understand here. 





jenthepen said:


> Anyway, thanks for posting this. It's one of those poems that begs to be read over and over. I almost know it off by heart now!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jenthepen (Aug 19, 2017)

Ah, thanks for that explanation about the house mates - I can see how the tensions might grow in that situation.

As to the rhythm and rhyme thing, it could be just me but the rest of the poem reads so smoothly that these lines seemed a bit out of sync when read out loud. Specifically, the stresses and pauses become jerky and the line 'while they feigned all was well' stands out for not having a rhyme partner. Of course, this might not matter but it draws the reader's attention because the rest of the stanza has set up the expectation of rhymed couplets. All this sounds horribly garbled and complex so maybe it's easier if I try to show you what I mean by rewriting the first stanza (badly, I know, but just to show what I mean) and you can read the two versions for comparison. 



Just what it was no one would say,
But it lurked in the corner, in its usual way,
Born of an absence; a moments delay,
And nurtured on silence by the things we don’t say,
Lay sharpening its claws,
While they feigned all was well,
Growing extra teeth and several new jaws,
Watching, and waiting all daynight long,

GETTING BIG, GETTING CLEVER, GETTING STRONG!



Just what it was no one would say,
But it lurked in the corner, in its usual way,
Born of an absence; a moments delay,
And nurtured on silence by the things we don’t say.
It lay in the shadows and sharpened its claws,
while _they_ feigned disinterest, ignoring all flaws,
it grew extra sharp teeth and several new jaws.
There, watching and waiting by day and night long

GETTING BIG, GETTING CLEVER, BUT MOST OF ALL STRONG!


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## urbandekay (Aug 19, 2017)

Ok, so I take your points and modify as follows;

Just what it was no one would say,
But it lurked in the corner, in its usual way,
Born of an absence; a moments delay,
And nurtured on silence by the things we don’t say,
It lay in the shadows, sharpening its claws
While they feigned naught was wrong
Growing extra teeth and several new jaws,
Watching, and waiting there all daynight long,

GETTING BIG, GETTING CLEVER, GETTING STRONG!

Daynight remains to convey the fact they denizens of this house had turned night to day and I like the steccato rhythm of the capitalised line, read it getting slightly louder and more emphatic as it progresses.


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## jenthepen (Aug 19, 2017)

urbandekay said:


> Daynight remains to convey the fact they denizens of this house had turned night to day and I like the steccato rhythm of the capitalised line, read it getting slightly louder and more emphatic as it progresses.



Yes, to me your revision reads more smoothly but I hope you are happy with it _poetically_. I worry now, that my critique was a little heavy-handed - my suggestions were only that (suggestions) and you should ignore them if they don't work for you or don't express exactly what you want to say.

Thanks for the feedback on daynight and the capitalised line - I agree that there are important reasons for keeping them.

Sorry if I've taken you off track with any of my comments. I think you have a good poem here and my problems with it were not important worries.

jen


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## urbandekay (Aug 19, 2017)

Not at all, I am grateful for your input


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## Pete_C (Aug 20, 2017)

The idea works well, and it has a rhythm that is reminiscent of something but I can't put my finger on it, which is actually a good thing because it gives the reader a degree of familiarity even though they've never read the piece before.

With anything that carries a pace and rhythm based upon reading, there will be some discrepancies based upon how we phrase certain parts. However, for me there are two parts that trip me up when reading.

The first starts on the line: Lay sharpening it's claws... While this and the following line have the set rhythm, after that it fell apart for me. The pace and meter changed, as did the rhyming scheme, and it stopped the flow to a point where I nearly stopped reading. If it hadn't been a workshop environment, I would have stopped at that point.

i dare say there will be a reason for you changing it there, but allow me to present the reader's point of view. You created a rhythm, a pace and a rhyme scheme, and presented them to us. We accepted them and followed. Then, just as we get going, you rip it away from use and we struggle to get back on track. Then, in stanza 2, you bring it back. That leaves us with a WTF moment!

Having read your comments regarding the capitalisation of the last lines of each stanza, can I add that I didn't like it. The words are powerful enough. Also, I think the last line should be whispered, so why emphasise it?

The second point where I stumbled was: So it planned and it plotted and crept back on all fours 
Stanza 2 has a tighter rhythm and pace and this seemed to have one word too many! Maybe substitute 'returned' for 'crept back'.

It needs a polish, but it is important that your personal intentions don't result is something that makes the reader stumble!


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## urbandekay (Aug 20, 2017)

I take your point re capitalisation, particularly true of the last line. Not so sure about rhythm seems to keep pace when I read it out loud but will think on that.

'Returned' seems a bit weak and is the same length, perhaps

So it planned and it plotted, crept back on all fours,


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## ned (Aug 20, 2017)

hello - really like this poem - humorous with good rhythm and rhyme.

the punctuation needs a bit more thought, to help the reader...

Just what it was, no one would say
But lurked in the corner in its usual way. - etc etc

never mind the rules, pick up the cadence.

enjoyed
Ned


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## escorial (Aug 20, 2017)

a poem with depth...for me


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## CrimsonAngel223 (Aug 20, 2017)

I think this piece my as well be a sonnet with the rhyming every stanza, but some aren't rhymed but that can be changed.


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## urbandekay (Aug 20, 2017)

Thank you, I was unaware there are rules


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## urbandekay (Aug 20, 2017)

CrimsonAngel223 said:


> I think this piece my as well be a sonnet with the rhyming every stanza, but some aren't rhymed but that can be changed.



To tell the truth, I don't feel the need for every line to rhyme


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## Darkkin (Aug 20, 2017)

urbandekay said:


> Just what it was no one would say,
> (But) it lurked in (a) corner(,) in its usual way,   Take a look at the words and punctuation in ( ).  These are areas where you can clip or subsitute.  Remember that this is the opening stanza, your reader knows nothing about this unspoken entity.  Usual within this context is out of place, as usual imples a habit or a routine the reader has never happen across this before, habit and routine are a moot point, nonexistent having no established parameters.  A kissing cousin to usual in terms of sound and length, but more corallary to the context, causal.
> 
> e.g.
> ...



Overall, there is a lot that works with this piece, the first stanza being much clearer than the second, but mechanics need to be addressed.  Tone is very good and the personification of a noncorporeal entity has excellent potential.  It just needs tweaking.  So read aloud as you edit, and keep in mind that poetry is almost as much about the visual aspect as it the auditory.  Uniformity in punctuation and capitalization play a huge part in how the reader translates the flow of a piece.

- D. the T.


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## urbandekay (Aug 20, 2017)

Thank you, lot there to think about. Can't say I agree about usual/casual substitution, I thiink usual, in this context, tells the reader something about the nature of the beast, Agree with some of the contractions and about capitalisation as someone else already mentioned. To use 
'we' throughout would alter the meaning significantly and they doesn't work in 4th line, wherein lies the problem


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## TL Murphy (Aug 25, 2017)

Urban, get to the essence and forget all this horsing around.  It's a good poem but it gets in its own way.  End rhyme is the bane of good poetry.  Forget it.  Go for the guts. Stick to images and use concrete words, things that can be seen, touched, felt:

Just what it was no one would say,  filler words are usually used to create iambic pentameter but if you pare words down you  will find natural rhythm.  Use puntuation and line breaks for breath pauses
But it lurked in the corner, in its usual way,  it's not worth writing throw-away phrases just to get an end-rhyme.  It's doesn't enhanse the poem, therefore detracts from the real poem
Born of an absence; a moments delay,
And nurtured on silence by the things we don’t say, redundant
Lay sharpening its claws,  filler
While they feigned all was well,  filler
Growing extra teeth and several new jaws,  filler
Watching, and waiting all daynight long, irrelevant

GETTING BIG, GETTING CLEVER, GETTING STRONG! redundant

So, they tore out their eyes and stuffed up their ears,
Hid in the cupboard and cursed all their fears,
Or smoked the whole bottle and drowned it in beers,
And they fed it and fed it and fed it for years.
They teased it and pleased it and jeered in its face,
And fed it some more on their rows and their tears,
Then they beat it and cut it and shut it outdoors,
So it planned and it plotted and crept back on all fours,
It shut all the exits and bolted the doors,
Put on silk gloves and dressed up like whores,
Polished its voice by oiling oiled its chords,
And whispered so softly…

TAKE ME I’M YOURS!  you don't need the capitals.  The last line is dramatic enough, especially as a monostitch




Here's the poem with my cuts, I've made some adjustments for cadence

what it was, none would say,  
it lurked in the corner, 
Born of absence; 
delay,
nurtured on silence 
sharpening claws,
Growing teeth, 
growing jaws, 


they tore their eyes and stuffed their ears,
Hid in the cupboard and cursed their fears,
fed it, 
fed it for years.
teased and pleased and jeered its face,

beat it, cut it, shut it outdoors,
it crept back 
crept back on all fours,
shut the exits, bolted the doors,
Put on silk gloves, dressed  like a whore,
Polished its voice, oiled its chords,
whispered, softly…

_take me, I'm yours_


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## urbandekay (Aug 25, 2017)

TL Murphy said:


> Urbane, get to the essence and forget all this horsing around. It's a good poem but it gets in its own way. End rhyme is the bane of good poetry. Forget it. Go for the guts. Stick to images and use concrete words, things that can be seen, touched, felt:
> 
> Just what it was no one would say,  filler words are usually used to create iambic pentameter but if you pare words down you will find natural rhythm. Use puntuation and line breaks for breath pauses
> But it lurked in the corner, in its usual way,  it's not worth writing throw-away phrases just to get an end-rhyme. It's doesn't enhanse the poem, therefore detracts from the real poem
> ...



Interesting but I thought that it's lost a little rhythm, when I read it outloud


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## RHPeat (Aug 25, 2017)

urbandekay said:


> Thank you, I was unaware there are rules



There are no rules to write a poem except poetic characteristics/music, the figurative & form/content as one thing. 

But if you say you wrote a sonnet, well you just stepped through the doorway of rules. Call it a poem instead and then it doesn't have to follow any rules. For a sonnet is a specific form of poetry. But when it comes to sonnets there are different kinds using differing forms of meterj & rhyme schemes. But they all have a volta. And most have 14 lines. But there is a 13 line sonnet form written in 13 syllabic meter. Most sonnets use iambic tetrameter or iambic pentameter. The two oldest forms are the Shakespearean Sonnet and the Petrarchan Sonnet which deals mostly with the rhyme scheme and where the volta falls in the poem. Ozymandias by Percy Bysshe Shelley is sonnet that turned a lot of heads it's also an eckphrastic poem as well. It too has its own rhyme scheme. 

Modern sonnets have varying rhymes scheme. A smith sonnet only has a rhyming couplet at the end of the poem and is written in blank verse. (not to be confused with free verse.) Some poet in North Dakota invented a sonnet form where the rhyme fell at the mid-line (3rd foot) in the meter. Milton wrote some tailed sonnets of 20 line that opened the Petrarchan sonnet form with two following tercets. So you can still be quite inventive when it comes to writing a sonnet. The important thing to realize is that it has to be extremely musical. Why? For the word sonnet means "Short Song". So calling a poem a sonnet is calling it a short song. That's why the rhyme scheme are so important. But a strong cadence can also become very musical as well. 

So even the rules to sonnets have a variety of opinions historically that reshape the rules for specific reasons. Sonnets are considered special because they're considered the hallmark of poetry; that it takes a good writer to write a great one. There certainly a lot of bad sonnets out there when it comes to the Shakespearean and Petrarchan Sonnets. 

What helps a poet to write a better than average sonnet is the ability to write through the rhymes into the next line without creating a line reversal between subject, verb or object of the verb to make a rhyme. It is really frowned on by major publishers that print sonnets. And forced rhymes are also another major fall-out when it comes to sonnets. Rhymes as filler are just in bad taste. The context of the poem has to work well in the poem to form a strong volta and closure. 

a poet friend
RH Peat


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## urbandekay (Aug 25, 2017)

RHPeat said:


> There are no rules to write a poem except poetic characteristics/music, the figurative & form/content as one thing.
> 
> But if you say you wrote a sonnet, well you just stepped through the doorway of rules. Call it a poem instead and then it doesn't have to follow any rules. For a sonnet is a specific form of poetry. But when it comes to sonnets there are different kinds using differing forms of meterj & rhyme schemes. But they all have a volta. And most have 14 lines. But there is a 13 line sonnet form written in 13 syllabic meter. Most sonnets use iambic tetrameter or iambic pentameter. The two oldest forms are the Shakespearean Sonnet and the Petrarchan Sonnet which deals mostly with the rhyme scheme and where the volta falls in the poem. Ozymandias by Percy Bysshe Shelley is sonnet that turned a lot of heads it's also an eckphrastic poem as well. It too has its own rhyme scheme.
> 
> ...



I never claimed it was a sonnet


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## TL Murphy (Aug 25, 2017)

Urban, Ron can deal with your comment about your poem not intending to be a sonnet better than I can, so I'll let him address that.  Let me just say that when you write in lines that are close to but not quite iambic pentameter and you force endline rhymes, it looks like a bad sonnet.  That is the form you are emulating but it isn't working.  In my comment I tried to point out that if you drop the form, stop forcing the rhyme and meter you can find the raw poem, which in this case, I think is pretty good.  That's why I'm commenting on it, because there's potential here.   Free verse (not blank verse) has no set meter. It relies on natural breath pauses, line breaks, caesuras (mid line breath pauses), enjambment,  and a variation of metrical patterns to create a cadence.  The rhythm speeds up and slows down. There can be a mixture of long and short lines. The point of free verse is to write only what is necessary to create the image and the music, using poetic devices to give the words a natural "flow".   In my edit of your piece, I am trying as much as possible to stick to the words and word order that you used in your original poem.  I'm just eliminating what I think is unnecessary and what holds the poem back.  I made line breaks and slight modifications to try and create some flow, but it should not be considered a finished poem.  It's your poem, not mine.  I don't want to rewrite your poem.  Although, it may look to you like I did, I didn't.  I agree with you that the rhythm (cadence) can be improved. I can't do that without rewriting the poem - so it's up to you if you want to take it on.


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## RHPeat (Aug 25, 2017)

* urbandekay*

Well then, it is what it is as a poem, isn't it? As I stated right off above. Call it a poem and there are no rules. Some on the thread seemed to be confused about what makes a sonnet a sonnet. Just offering a clarification for all, not only you Urbandekey. But anyone can call a horse a cow if they want to, that makes no difference to me. You can smile at that; its meant to be a joke. 

My statement was never meant to make a judgement on your poem. I directed it at no one at all, just offering information for those that want it. All the rules can be broken, but when you do, make sure that it looks intentional is all I'm saying above, without saying it directly at all. That might be a poetic habit within me. That's a joke on myself. 
-------------

Tim makes a great point about writing bad sonnets compared to writing good free verse. If you note what I said in my original statement about poetic characteristics; I mentioned that form/content should be one thing. That basically means the poem should fit its form and the form should fit the content. Part of your struggle, that Tim notes in his observations, is that very struggle between form and content being different things; they work against each other within the writing. As the poet, only you can resolve that. 

Of course in a workshop there is an advantage because you allow others to help you with that struggle. I like workshopping my own work for that reason. The more input for different folk the better. In the end only you will make the changes or not within the poem as its author. And rightly so, as well. A suggestion is still only a suggestion. Rewriting is what an author does to what is on the page through his own unique judgement. So any example is still only an example. Agreement by definition is: harmony or accordance in opinion or feeling. That is something only you will find in any given suggestion, one way or the other, and disagreement is always an option. Being able to listen of course is always the bigger problem because of personal attachments to the poem. However in the end all poems have to stand on their own merit without their author. There is no way around that reality. 

a poet friend
RH Peat


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## urbandekay (Aug 25, 2017)

TL Murphy said:


> Urbane, Ron can deal with your comment about your poem not intending to be a sonnet better than I can, so I'll let him address that. Let me just say that when you write in lines that are close to but not quite iambic pentameter and you force endline rhymes, it looks like a bad sonnet. That is the form you are emulating but it isn't working. In my comment I tried to point out that if you drop the form, stop forcing the rhyme and meter you can find the raw poem, which in this case, I think is pretty good. That's why I'm commenting on it, because there's potential here. Free verse (not blank verse) has no set meter. It relies on natural breath pauses, line breaks, caesuras (mid line breath pauses), enjambment, and a variation of metrical patterns to create a cadence. The rhythm speeds up and slows down. There can be a mixture of long and short lines. The point of free verse is to write only what is necessary to create the image and the music, using poetic devices to give the words a natural "flow". In my edit of your piece, I am trying as much as possible to stick to the words and word order that you used in your original poem. I'm just eliminating what I think is unnecessary and what holds the poem back. I made line breaks and slight modifications to try and create some flow, but it should not be considered a finished poem. It's your poem, not mine. I don't want to rewrite your poem. Although, it may look to you like I did, I didn't. I agree with you that the rhythm (cadence) can be improved. I can't do that without rewriting the poem - so it's up to you if you want to take it on.



I maybe Urban but I am far from urbane. Neither is it iambic pentameter. Nor do I like this fad for over clipping in poetry, that detracts from what a poem is, for some artificial standard. It makes poems sound contrived and rather pretentious. It reminds me of this dire fad for minamalism in house design that robs houses of style and looks dreadful


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## urbandekay (Aug 25, 2017)

RHPeat said:


> * urbandekay*
> 
> Well then, it is what it is as a poem, isn't it? As I stated right off above. Call it a poem and there are no rules. Some on the thread seemed to be confused about what makes a sonnet a sonnet. Just offering a clarification for all, not only you Urbandekey. But anyone can call a horse a cow if they want to, that makes no difference to me. You can smile at that; its meant to be a joke.
> 
> ...



So, what I understand you to be saying is that there is one set of conventions for sonnets and another for free verses, which of course makes free verse anything but. Of these conventions, i am ignorant and care not a fig for. As you so rightly say, it is what it is - a poem.


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## RHPeat (Aug 25, 2017)

Of course a fig is always a fig and smells like a fig. So your new concept of a poem being a fig is quite fine with me. Like I said above you can call a horse a cow; it makes no difference to me. It might to a publisher however. Arrogance doesn't make a poem more or less — better or worse.  I was only seeking to communicate. But I'm done trying to do that. You make a formidable wall of rock that I see no reason at all to confront when there are so many more well informed routs to take to reach where I'm headed. Goodbye!


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## RHPeat (Aug 25, 2017)

urbandekay said:


> So, what I understand you to be saying is that there is one set of conventions for sonnets and another for free verses, which of course makes free verse anything but. Of these conventions, i am ignorant and care not a fig for. As you so rightly say, it is what it is - a poem.



Your fig has been shown.


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## TL Murphy (Aug 25, 2017)

Sorry, Urbandekay.  I misread your handle.  Anyway, I'm just trying to help.  Take what you want and chuck the rest.  Good luck.


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## urbandekay (Aug 26, 2017)

RHPeat said:


> Of course a fig is always a fig and smells like a fig. So your new concept of a poem being a fig is quite fine with me. Like I said above you can call a horse a cow; it makes no difference to me. It might to a publisher however. Arrogance doesn't make a poem more or less — better or worse. I was only seeking to communicate. But I'm done trying to do that. You make a formidable wall of rock that I see no reason at all to confront when there are so many more well informed routs to take to reach where I'm headed. Goodbye!



Sorry you see it as arrogance, I am just trying to understand but now I do, thank you for making it clear, you are following a publisher's formula


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## Nellie (Aug 27, 2017)

It seems to me, _A Grim(m) Fairytale _is wanting to be told here, but no one is really willing to let it be. Let the difference between free verse and blank verse be known:



			
				TL Murphy said:
			
		

> Free verse (not blank verse) has no set meter. It relies on natural breath pauses, line breaks, caesuras (mid line breath pauses), enjambment, and a variation of metrical patterns to create a cadence. The rhythm speeds up and slows down. There can be a mixture of long and short lines. The point of free verse is to write only what is necessary to create the image and the music, using poetic devices to give the words a natural "flow". In my edit of your piece, I am trying as much as possible to stick to the words and word order that you used in your original poem.



You elaborated on free verse. Okay, what about blank verse?


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