# I want your opinion on my WIP's theme



## Justin Rocket (Feb 21, 2014)

I believe my WIP's theme will be 

_how do we find our way to adulthood ina world in which no one is innocent?  Who do we look to as arole-model?  From where do we get the lessons and guidance we need?_
_Is innocencesomething that we should strive to preserve?
_

I'd like your opinion on it.  Not only do I want your opinion as to whether this makes a good theme, but I want your answer to the questions.

thanks


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## Bishop (Feb 21, 2014)

Theme is tricky. Those are fantastic questions, many of which can be answered in your work and show themselves as a theme, but it depends entirely on the work itself. If you write with intent to pose those questions in your work, you're trusting that a reader will interpret it that way. It might not happen that way at all.

My point is that the answers to those questions will be colored by the lens through which the reader views your work. Everyone has an opinion on everything, including fictional works. Where some people say that Romeo and Juliet is about the true purity and passion of love, I might see it as a tale cautioning against impulsiveness and foolishness in love. Two very different sides to a coin. 

I don't go into my work with an intended theme. I tried. I was trying to write about thing A, but as the story went on, around 75% of the way through, I realized thing B was a very present and strong theme in my story--and I was more proud of it than I was of thing A's message. It's just my opinion, take it for what it is, but I think as writers we should look to tell a story and let the theme emerge on its own. Dwell too much on it, and your writing will become biased, which is the opposite of honest. 

But my way is not the right way, because there is no right way. So, to be a bit more helpful to your original quetsion: Yes, those are wonderful themes, and I love that people are thinking that way in the modern world, because lot of what was "innocent" has been lost. If I had to give my opinion, innocence is a myth. In the words of the Librarians from Dawn of War; "There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt." Even the most seemingly innocent thing in the world, say, a child, can do horrendous things. People can say it's not the child's fault, but how will the child think of himself when he's thirty knowing that he was a child soldier and killed dozens of other children? Guilt is an internal conflict far more than it is an external perception.

Bishop


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## Deleted member 49710 (Feb 21, 2014)

Can you really choose your theme? I feel like my themes are determined by who I am and the issues that affect me. They emerge whether I see them or not--generally I try to focus on the story, with faith that the theme will take care of itself. So whether it's a good theme or not is sort of the wrong question.

As for the questions specifically--Define _adulthood. _Define _innocence._


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 21, 2014)

Starting with an outline (which includes things like theme), for me, is like a prompt for my conscious mind to get the plane off the runway and up into the air.  I acknowledge that, at any time, my subconscious can take the plane hostage and end up setting it down somewhere not planned.

That having been said, rather than discuss the merits of starting with a theme, I'd rather this thread focus on your answers to the questions the theme poses.


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## Terry D (Feb 21, 2014)

Innocence is a relative term. Do you mean free from being guilty of transgressing laws, or of moral boundaries, or do you mean absolute innocence--the freedom from sin? We all fail the latter, and to varying degrees the first two. Striving for all three is good. Our role models are those who understand their shortcomings in that struggle and still continue to make the struggle.


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## thepancreas11 (Feb 21, 2014)

You can attempt to write with a theme in mind, but you'll find you're writing a sermon and not a story. What you want to start off with is a character or maybe characters that embody a certain ideal. Maybe one of your characters embodies your vision of innocence and another embodies adulthood, but even this is not enough. Those characters must go through a trial, must face the issues that you think innocence faces or that constitutes adulthood, and then you allow the reader to make their own judgments.

In my mind, it's better to come up with a nifty idea for a story and then find a theme within it. Usually it's a quick thought that jumps into my head: a man is abducted by a first time serial killer that doesn't know what she's doing. Then I think, what is it about that situation that intrigues me: why does she want to kill him, and how did he end up there? Then I think, how can I make that situation unique and fresh: turns out she's pissed that men keep cheating on her, so she wants to get back at them and ends up accidentally bringing home a gay man. Now the theme comes out: she's a poor judge of character because she sees what she wants to see in people. She keeps getting hurt because she's blind to the world outside her nose. The takeaway here is that you start with an idea, normally, and not a theme, and the theme kind of swims up through all the words you put down. When it breeches like one of those humpback whales, then you can go back and gussy up the story to better fit your moral.


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 21, 2014)

thepancreas11 said:


> You can attempt to write with a theme in mind, but you'll find you're writing a sermon and not a story. What you want to start off with is a character or maybe characters that embody a certain ideal. Maybe one of your characters embodies your vision of innocence and another embodies adulthood, but even this is not enough. Those characters must go through a trial, must face the issues that you think innocence faces or that constitutes adulthood, and then you allow the reader to make their own judgments.
> 
> In my mind, it's better to come up with a nifty idea for a story and then find a theme within it. Usually it's a quick thought that jumps into my head: a man is abducted by a first time serial killer that doesn't know what she's doing. Then I think, what is it about that situation that intrigues me: why does she want to kill him, and how did he end up there? Then I think, how can I make that situation unique and fresh: turns out she's pissed that men keep cheating on her, so she wants to get back at them and ends up accidentally bringing home a gay man. Now the theme comes out: she's a poor judge of character because she sees what she wants to see in people. She keeps getting hurt because she's blind to the world outside her nose. The takeaway here is that you start with an idea, normally, and not a theme, and the theme kind of swims up through all the words you put down. When it breeches like one of those humpback whales, then you can go back and gussy up the story to better fit your moral.



Why are you discussing idea and characters (both of which I already have) in a thread about theme?


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## popsprocket (Feb 22, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> Why are you discussing idea and characters (both of which I already have) in a thread about theme?



Because they aren't mutually exclusive.


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## Bishop (Feb 22, 2014)

popsprocket said:


> Because they aren't mutually exclusive.




This. Not only are the not mutually exclusive, in a fiction work there is no thematic presence without character development. Just because someone has characters or idea does not mean that they have a theme. More importantly, these are so tied together it's remarkable. It's the actions of the characters that define the theme. Without Hamlet's fatal flaws, the Prince of Denmark's tale might as well be a Sunday sitcom rerun. This is why I believe that writing with a theme is something that doesn't work for me. I let the characters grow and exist in their own medium, and often times they react in ways I never expected, but those ways are real and honest. Then, the theme comes out later.

Bishop


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 22, 2014)

And if I understood all perspectives on the theme, I'd be able to refine the triangle of character, idea, and theme.
That's why I'd like to discuss your answers to the dramatic questions posed in the OP.

When Terry D addressed those questions by writing "Our role models are those who understand their shortcomings in that struggle and still continue to make the struggle", that was helpful.  I have a secondary character who could very easily be promoted to be the character who knows his shortcomings and still continues to make the struggle.

That's why I'd like to see other posters' answers to the dramatic questions posed in the OP.


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## dale (Feb 22, 2014)

i generally relate "role models" as family, moreso than media interpretations. but let's face it....society defines "role models". 
like back in the 1940s? people with morals were defined as "role models". now? drug addicts, homosexuals, and retards are defined
as "role models". so it's basically a matter of perspective.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Feb 22, 2014)

Well, you asked whether people thought it was a good theme or not. So I think what people are trying to tell you is, a super-imposed theme is a bad theme.

But your questions, though you still do not say what "adulthood" means or what "innocence" means:
Adulthood happens whether you seek it or not.
People pick role models based on what's available and most consistent with their pre-existing values.
If by innocence you mean childlike purity or something to that effect, such a state cannot be preserved indefinitely, or it becomes ignorance and vulnerability. Better to fight the things which harm the innocent than to try to preserve innocence.


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## dale (Feb 22, 2014)

lasm said:


> Well, you asked whether people thought it was a good theme or not. So I think what people are trying to tell you is, a super-imposed theme is a bad theme.
> 
> But your questions, though you still do not say what "adulthood" means or what "innocence" means:
> Adulthood happens whether you seek it or not.
> ...



but really? true "innocence" only exists in the child. responsibility kills innocence.


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## ppsage (Feb 22, 2014)

Naturally, I immediately read _innocence_ in the biblical sense, which makes the question about preservation the most germane. I didn't preserve mine into what I'd call my adulthood and I didn't come out too bad; some sores but nothing fatal. Probably a wash career-wise and success-wise. I wasn't really going-to-the-top material ever. Might be more dangerous now? I think old people like me think young people should preserve their innocence cause it will make life calmer. I don't really expect we're going to be able to depend on role models much longer for innocence or much of anything else. Probably good riddance. I think meaningful guidance comes with honest communication, like they do all the time on tv. And with that, preserving innocence isn't such a big deal. And you get grand-kids sooner.

Edit: I'm joking partly of course but when I look out in RL at the people I know my own age (50's & 60's), I would say that the present happiness or unhappiness of at least half of them is directly dependent on their relationship or lack of same with their progeny or lack of same.


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## Jeko (Feb 22, 2014)

It's a bad theme. It is, however, a good central point for speculation and exploration through a work. But since you've decided it beforehand, it would make a bad theme.

As for answers to the questions, I haven't lived long enough to give a general philosophy, and as a Christian my view is biased towards my faith. In fact, 'Christian' would supply all the answers you need.


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## Gargh (Feb 22, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> I believe my WIP's theme will be
> 
> _how do we find our way to adulthood ina world in which no one is innocent?  Who do we look to as arole-model?  From where do we get the lessons and guidance we need?_
> _Is innocencesomething that we should strive to preserve?
> ...



It's not something I'd choose to explore in fiction (?). However, if I did I would look closely at the relationship between innocence and ignorance and how the preservation of one can mean prolonging the other, which I believe is contrary to life. As others have pointed out, no one can both remain innocent and take responsibility, they are contradictory concepts: one of which is more important to a functioning society than the other. However, the _illusion _of innocence is important. Believing that there is something to protect and fight for is culturally significant throughout the world and across most of the major religions.  Even in popular media, especially during the golden age of Hollywood, what we _had _were iconic figures who fought to keep a clean reputation regardless of what they were up to. And they would have an entourage who also shared that aim. What we _have _now is a distinct lack of control or care about preserving an image with any adherence to common moral values. Some would argue that this is because we no longer have the values to adhere to, and to some degree that's true, but it is also just an issue of giving up trying. That, I think, shapes the prevalent lack of aspirational innocence.  The question then, if you accept that, is what carrot do you dangle to get people to a point where they wish to conform again? Social contract doesn't seem to be working very well at the moment... possibly due to a lack of ability to enforce it... and success of all flavours is perceived as achievable regardless of your morality. Maybe we should just go back to encouraging magical thinking? And so a seemingly innocent set of questions becomes political... everything always does 

There is also quite a school of thought on the loss of innocence in C20th children's literature out there on t'internet, most of it referencing Peter Pan, but you may find it helpful.


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 22, 2014)

Cadence said:


> But since you've decided it beforehand,



I have not decided the answer beforehand.  i'm not sure there is One True Answer(tm)


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## Jeko (Feb 22, 2014)

> I have not decided the answer beforehand. i'm not sure there is One True Answer(tm)



Right - there should be many, and disagreements on the matter.

But if you believe that the theme of your work will be one thing, or even a group of things, you're either 1) wrong or 2) limiting your work's potential. The hope I have for my work is that someday someone will tell me something about it that I never thought about myself. 

As I said, it would be great to explore the topic through fiction. My advice is to only ensure that you do not view this concept as 'the theme'; it is availability for a theme, as a seed is potential for a plant.


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 22, 2014)

A line from a novel I once read said "Why can't a story just be a story?"

Why does there have to be a theme? Especially one that a writer plans ahead of time. 

Why can't the story just be what it wants to be? Let it take you where it wants to go. If it wants to have that theme, it will. If it doesn't, then you are going to have a mighty struggle on your hands when it comes to writing it. Let your characters do what they will. If you don't, they will desert you.


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## Bishop (Feb 22, 2014)

Cadence said:


> The hope I have for my work is that someday someone will tell me something about it that I never thought about myself.



Same here! I really want--someday, long from now--for a fan to come up to me and tell me something they perceived in my book, something they liked, something they didn't like... or tell me how they thought this part was a metaphor for this in life, and while I didn't plan it that way, I connect with the reader's interpretation and learn something new about my work.

That seems like it would be the real reward of writing, when you realize that you taught yourself something that only another person could show you.

Bishop


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 22, 2014)

I look forward to the day when we focus on accepting that different authors' processes for creating content are different.


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## Bishop (Feb 22, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> I look forward to the day when we focus on accepting that different authors' processes for creating content are different.



We accept it, but the doesn't mean we can't give our reasoning for our methods as well. We're not trying to tell you how to write, with or without theme, only offering our view of what it does to our writing. The idea of the forums is to offer different view points and ideas to become the best writers possible, be it this way or the next. It's unfair to start a thread that's about theme and try and stifle discussion about theme. I agree that we got a bit off topic of your original question, but I did my best to answer the questions with my opinion about innocence in addition to my thoughts on theme.

Bishop


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 22, 2014)

Bishop said:


> We're not trying to tell you how to write



Cause it sure does feel like that's exactly what people are doing.

I'd happily create another thread to discuss the merits of having an explicit theme when starting one's story if you'd like.


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## dale (Feb 22, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> Cause it sure does feel like that's exactly what people are doing.
> 
> I'd happily create another thread to discuss the merits of having an explicit theme when starting one's story if you'd like.



i agree with you on the "theme" thing. i believe most fiction does have "theme" whether the writer admits it or not. our stories hold certain elements
of what we define as "truth". sometimes i don't even see it till after i'm done writing the work. but it's there, regardless.


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## thepancreas11 (Feb 22, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> I believe my WIP's theme will be
> 
> _how do we find our way to adulthood ina world in which no one is innocent?  Who do we look to as arole-model?  From where do we get the lessons and guidance we need?_
> _Is innocencesomething that we should strive to preserve?
> ...



Your theme is very broad, owing to both the ambiguous nature of the terms you have here and the fact that you're asking four different questions. Which one of these is the most important to you? If you're trying to examine an issue here, then you need to know which issue you're examining. All these other questions are gravy.

I'm going to assume it's the last one. It's an interesting question. Should we cover our children's ears when we say certain things, knowing full well that someday they'll be saying the same things in front of their children? Should we avoid questions about sex and drugs and life to protect them from what the world is really like? Should we be honest knowing that they're too immature to understand the repercussions of their actions? Personally, I ask myself questions like that all the time. Would I have approached things differently in my life if someone had educated me before I found them?

I might edit it to something like, "Do we defend things in humanity that are impossible to defend?", or better yet, "Are we wasting our time trying to invent a world for children that really doesn't exist?", or lastly, "Do we as a world society live within the confines of a dreamworld superimposed on reality, whereby the issues that we should be facing are shunned for things like the Kardashians and Miley Cyrus?"

I haven't read any of your writing, so I don't know what really appeals to you, but try to hone your thoughts as you go, if you must go by theme.


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## Kyle R (Feb 22, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> I believe my WIP's theme will be
> 
> _how do we find our way to adulthood ina world in which no one is innocent?  Who do we look to as arole-model?  From where do we get the lessons and guidance we need?_
> _Is innocencesomething that we should strive to preserve?
> ...



Hey JR.

If you're looking to use theme to help you plot, one suggestion of mine is to craft an _argument_, rather than a _question_. It can help to replace the word "theme" in your mind with: Thematic Argument.

Using this approach, if you have a question mark at the end of your statement, then you haven't yet nailed down your thematic argument. A question mark should be enough to tell you that you're still in the process of deciding what your thematic argument is.

What you want to end up with is a statement. "Innocence is something we should strive to preserve," for example, would be a workable thematic argument.

It might seem like only a small difference (a question mark versus a period), but by stating an argument (instead of presenting a  question), the direction of your work is drastically narrowed, and in a good way: now you know precisely what your story is meant to convey and accomplish.

With the "We should strive to preserve innocence" thematic argument, we now know that any antagonistic forces in your story will be striving to _destroy_ innocence. Nailing down the argument helps us nail down the character motivations as well.

Just a suggestion! You don't have to use it if you don't like, just thought I'd throw it out there. :encouragement:


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## ppsage (Feb 22, 2014)

> Hey JR.
> 
> If you're looking to use theme to help you plot, one suggestion of mine is to craft an _argument, rather than a question. It can help to replace the word "theme" in your mind with: Thematic Argument.
> _


I thought this too but was afraid of being accused of nitpicking the OP.


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 22, 2014)

KyleColorado said:


> Hey JR.
> 
> If you're looking to use theme to help you plot, one suggestion of mine is to craft an _argument_, rather than a _question_. It can help to replace the word "theme" in your mind with: Thematic Argument.
> 
> ...



Using your approach, I think the most interesting question for me is "From where do we get the lessons and guidance we need?"  This is why I'm interested in the response I was given earlier by Terry D that, "Our role models are those who understand their shortcomings in that struggle and still continue to make the struggle."
Within the context of the WIP, it really opens up some depth that I was overlooking earlier (and from the perspective of the WIP is a shakabuku).
That's why I'm interested in seeing if there's any other nuggets that can be mined here.


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## Jeko (Feb 23, 2014)

> I look forward to the day when we focus on accepting that different authors' processes for creating content are different.



We all know that. But a wise man has many advisers; just as Randy Ingermanson advocates for his snowflake method, a writer should listen to what everyone else says about writing and take from what they hear and read what they think will help them. They can ignore the rest. 

The 'I do it my way' argument of a writer is usually an obstacle to success. You end up doing it your way whether you use the advice and influences of other people or not. The trick is to take anything from everything and continually augment your abilities as a writer and not think anyone is trying to make you write like they do.

My advice is to not focus on theme at this stage; you can probably see where I'm coming from and decide whether my outlook on writing has any overlap with yours. Furthermore, the suggested theme of 'innocence' sounds like the sort of thing that comes out best naturally; you'll have to experiment to see how different focuses affect the outcome of your story.


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 23, 2014)

Cadence said:


> The 'I do it my way' argument of a writer is usually an obstacle to success. .



It wasn't too long ago that you and I got in a debate where you took the opposite stance. However, in that previous conversation, I wasn't referencing anyone specific and I certainly wasn't assuming that anyone specific had prematurely decided against some particular writing technique.


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## Jeko (Feb 23, 2014)

> It wasn't too long ago that you and I got in a debate where you took the opposite stance.



I think that's both irrelevant and incorrect, but I'd be happy to discuss the matter over PM to clear up any confusion.


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## ppsage (Feb 23, 2014)

> discuss the matter over PM to clear up any confusion.


yes please


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 24, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> Cause it sure does feel like that's exactly what people are doing.



But isn't that pretty much what you were doing to me in another thread by telling me that a good writer "must" go in search of every tool useable?

Wasn't that you telling me that my way of writing wasn't the "right" way?

Or were you simply giving your opinion?


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 24, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> But isn't that pretty much what you were doing to me in another thread by telling me that a good writer "must" go in search of every tool useable?
> 
> Wasn't that you telling me that my way of writing wasn't the "right" way?
> 
> Or were you simply giving your opinion?



I don't remember calling anyone, including you, out specifically (as Cadence did here). 
My comment to you was actually that the process that works for you is fine and that


> a person who depends on writing for a living can't "just write' hoping for the best. They have to aggressively go after making their work as good as they can.



which is hardly a controversial statement.


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## Gavrushka (Feb 24, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> I believe my WIP's theme will be
> 
> _how do we find our way to adulthood ina world in which no one is innocent?  Who do we look to as arole-model?  From where do we get the lessons and guidance we need?_
> _Is innocencesomething that we should strive to preserve?
> ...



I may have come a little late to the party, and see the conversation has strayed a little, but I think this is a great opportunity to examine the effect of society on the individual... - It would be pointless to have the protagonist as generic conformity throughout, and it makes me think of Orwell's 1984. - It's a long time since I read it, but the protagonist _remembered _a life before the current totalitarian world he lived in AND as a result had something external to draw on... Then there was the woman he met, who had been born within the totalitarian state, and yet still found morality and defiance - all of which were internal...

Done skilfully, the protagonist can develop from the generic to something beyond. - He can look at an event through slightly different eyes and see a truth that had previously been hidden to him. Such a cathartic moment could send him on a collision course with all he knew...

Well, it's a story I'd love to read.


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 24, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> I don't remember calling anyone, including you, out specifically (as Cadence did here).
> My comment to you was actually that the process that works for you is fine and that
> 
> [/COLOR]which is hardly a controversial statement.



I wasn't referring to being "controversial". I was referring to the fact that you said 




> a person who depends on writing for a living can't  "just write' hoping for the best. They have to aggressively go after  making their work as good as they can.



which is telling me that my way of writing isn't the proper way because I do intend to get paid, and hopefully make a living at it.

I agree that there is no controversy. I would just expect someone to "practice what they preach" if they don't care for people telling them how to write.

That's all I will say on the matter here in this thread.


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 24, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> which is telling me that my way of writing isn't the proper way



So, you don't aggressively go after making your work as good as you can?


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 24, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> So, you don't aggressively go after making your work as good as you can?



Semantics aside, yes, I do.

However, I am a pantser at heart. I work the way I work. You have not ever mentioned names, but your words on planning and outlining would lead any reasonable person to believe that you don't think anyone who doesn't do those things is a writer who does things the right way.

Since I know there are rules against debating here on this forum, I'm done with this subject now.


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 24, 2014)

There's no debate.  You and I both agree that a pro writer should aggressively try to make his work as good as he can.  Yet, you take personal offense when I wrote it despite the fact that I immediately preceded it with stating that your writing method is fine.

This is not what Cadance did.


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## Jeko (Feb 24, 2014)

> This is not what Cadance did.



I think what I did or did not do is irrelevant to your thread. I'd appreciate it if you stopped dropping my name into things without explanation or PM'd me to clear up any confusion.


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## dale (Feb 24, 2014)

*


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 24, 2014)

Cadence said:


> I think what I did or did not do is irrelevant to your thread.



You're right that what you did and didn't do isn't relevant to this thread.  That was my point.  Your original reply to my original post was in no way relevant to the OP and nothing you've posted since has been relevant either.  Your posts have just been belligerent thread jack.

Gavrushka, I like your idea of bringing up 1984 and I certainly see the relevance.  I'm going to have to make a note of it.  My WIP is going to be about 70k words. There's no space for a good 1984 angle.  But, I plan on writing a few sequels and I absolutely love what a 1984 paradigm can do in them.


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## Bishop (Feb 24, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> My WIP is going to be about 70k words. There's no space for a good 1984 angle.



Not to nit pick, but 1984 in its entirety was only 88k words, so I bet you could fit in the angle ^.^


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## dale (Feb 24, 2014)

Bishop said:


> Not to nit pick, but 1984 in its entirety was only 88k words, so I bet you could fit in the angle ^.^



and actually, the short novel is making a comeback. people are too busy to read 150,000 words to tell a tale that could have been written in 60,000.


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## ppsage (Feb 24, 2014)

I love themes and every time I write I make sure I have a double handful in my pocket. I think there's two kinds. The kind I start out with I call constructive themes. These are like the OP (except I would never call a question a theme, that's just wrong and lukeydukey.) These help with the composition. Most of them have been with me pretty long. _History study is needed for understanding. The internet is a good place to learn stuff. Nothing is fundamentally right or true. _Lots and lots of them. Choosing a few to look at is good for me, when I write, sometimes. As I write, after I write, a different kind of theme exists. I call it an emergent theme. It comes out of the writing. Sometimes I don't like it. Sometimes I don't like it enough to quit. Usually it surprises me a little and delights me a lot. I didn't really control it that precisely, but it doesn't hurt to nurture a little, if I can figure out how. Often it gets too embedded to see how. I sort of think nobody could write who didn't have constructive themes behind them, but can easily see that some might not care about picking them up all the time and studying them. Think I do it both ways, depending.


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 24, 2014)

Bishop said:


> Not to nit pick, but 1984 in its entirety was only 88k words, so I bet you could fit in the angle ^.^



There's other stuff (the importance of religion and mythology to society, the role model issue, the tangible story of a teen quest to save the world, etc.) in addition to the 1984 angle that I need to fit into the story.


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## dale (Feb 24, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> There's other stuff (the importance of religion and mythology to society, the role model issue, the tangible story of a teen quest to save the world, etc.) in addition to the 1984 angle that I need to fit into the story.


ok. now this is where i disagree with your theme thing. you don't "need" to fit theme into your book. that should process organically. if you make it a point
to force your story into a theme it doesn't want to manifest from or into? that's propaganda. it's not even real anymore. i mean...it's your book. write it how you like.
but i just see trying to FORCE theme as fake.


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 24, 2014)

dale said:


> you don't "need" to fit theme into your book. that should process organically



So, don't try to plan theme.  I'm not telling you that how you write is authentic or not and I wish to God that you'd give me the same courtesy.  What matters isn't how a story is created (plan/pants), but the quality of the story.

As for your assumption that an author deliberately installing a theme into his story is morally questionable, but installing it without deliberation is not morallyquestionable, you are essentially stating the following.

A.) If something in society offends me, but I lack the self-awareness to state what that something is unless I first write a story, then that's morally okay.  

B.) If I have sufficient self-awareness to identify what that something is before I write that story and I proceed to write that story, then that' morally dubious.

C.) If the story is created (via either A or B) and the story I write persuades you to take a position, then it is morally okay only when I lack self awareness.  That is to say that you being persuaded to take a position is morally okay only when the person who persuades you lacks self-awareness.


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## dale (Feb 24, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> So, don't try to plan theme.  I'm not telling you that how you write is authentic or not and I wish to God that you'd give me the same courtesy.  What matters isn't how a story is created (plan/pants), but the quality of the story.



 i didn't start this thread, dwog. i think you should write what you believe in. if you mean it, it will show. i'm just saying that if i were to FORCE an agenda, it wouldn't be real. i would be lying to or about my character motives.


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## J Anfinson (Feb 24, 2014)

_How do we find our way to adulthood in a world in which no one is innocent?  Who do we look to as a role-model? 

_By simply surviving and resisting the most immoral acts that we could commit. I consider a role model to be those that have managed to avoid falling to those lows, and instead do positive things_.

From where do we get the lessons and guidance we need?
_
Hopefully from the adults who raise us, and hopefully the young can learn from the adults' mistakes.
_
Is innocence something that we should strive to preserve?
_
Like the others, I do think it depends on what your definition of innocence is. Using my own definition of, "the state of being without sins", I would say it's never been done. However, I'm guessing you're asking "should society strive to impress upon our young the value of being relatively virtuous", and to that I say of course. Why would we not try to teach them to be better than ourselves?

Is the general idea a good theme? It could be, I don't know. I don't know the story you're writing, only you would know the answer. One final thought that I don't think anyone else has mentioned. Does there just have to be one theme? Many stories have had multiple themes.


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 24, 2014)

dale said:


> i didn't start this thread, dwog. i think you should write what you believe in. if you mean it, it will show. i'm just saying that if i were to FORCE an agenda, it wouldn't be real. i would be lying to or about my character motives.



If I believed in taking a position before I examined it from all available angles, I wouldn't have started this thread.


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