# Don't Write That, Write This



## VonBradstein (Oct 20, 2017)

Aha, got your attention! Now time to stir the proverbial pot... :lol:

While navigating the forum I have noticed a lot of seemingly new-ish writers (some possibly quite young) who are committed to the craft (yay!) and are working on books and longer works that are, shall we say, quite elaborate sounding. This closely mirrors my real life experiences and literally any creative writing club/NanoWriMo meet-up ever.

You know the ones I mean: World-building fantasy, epic science fiction, multiple races/nations/religions/etc. Basically novels that are as epic as epic gets. 

First of all, I think that's impressive. I have been writing for years and its basically my life - I also love epic fantasy/sci fi. Yet I have never tried to write anything like that. It's still boggles my mind whenever I read a really good epic fantasy or space opera how a single man or woman could come up with a world that is so intricate and complex yet so real and consistent with itself. I don't blame any writer from wanting to try it. One day, maybe I will.

However I do have concerns when I come across, say, younger or less experienced folks who perhaps haven't written a complete short story, let alone a full-length piece, who are now engaging and investing precious months or years into writing in this genre. Ones who have not even had the time or opportunity to read all that much, let alone develop their ability to write well. Quite simply, I wonder whether these kinds of books are the best use of time in terms of developing the writing skill set or whether they just serve to create a sense of frustration or, worse still, delusion. What do I mean by that? Well, when I was in my early twenties I probably started, dumped thousands or words into, and then gave up on numerous books because I realized at some point just wasn't quite ready to write them. I had not read enough. I had not worked out my personal style and voice (still works in progress for me). And, most crucially of all, I was thinking about what I wanted to write more than what I was ready to write.

Perhaps that is just me. There is, obviously, an argument that choice of what to write is up to the individual and nobody should interfere with that. I agree in principle, however I still think there is a discussion to be had about how a writer with potential gets to being a damn good writer, and I'm not sure if planning extremely complex and cinematic novels in genres requiring a lot of discipline, research, structure and weaving of various plots is a good way to go for somebody who has yet to complete anything. The title to this thread is 100% tongue in cheek - the real title would actually be "instead of writing that, consider writing this'" (but less grabby) and that's kind of how I feel now. 

When I look back at years I spent, and arguably wasted, trying to emulate various authors with immeasurably more skill at the craft than I had it makes me feel like this point of view should be shared, even if most people strongly disagree with me. It's not exactly just an opinion either. With very few exceptions most authors of 'epic' work tend to cut their teeth on simpler stories first. George RR Martin wrote shorts and novellas for two decades before starting Game of Thrones, Tolkien had been a successful short story writer and academic before touching Hobbits, Douglas Adams wrote for radio before Hitchikers. While there are definitely a few rookie writers who shoot into success with huge books and series and no previous writing credits - Rowling the obvious example - these are an extreme minority and I don't think make for realistic examples to follow. In any case I would strongly argue that Harry Potter was never 'meant' to be anything more than a humble children's book and the advances in its plot developed over time as success increased.

Another point of view would be - well even if the book fails, the process is still informative and good experience. Again, I don't disagree, but it becomes kind of a question of whether it's AS informative or AS good experience to try something totally impossible and fall flat X thousand words in or try something that is simply _challenging _and succeed at it - complete the work, get the 'full experience' from start to end, and put it away with the confidence of knowing you can complete something that is not terrible. There is an element of confidence at stake - I came so close to giving up forever so often over the frequent failures - and also whether writing books in one's favorite genre is really better for the development of a writer than pushing them out of comfort zones and having them develop the ability to write more diversely. Is it really good for us as writers to only write in certain genres just because it's what we like?

My counter offer on the subject for newer authors - or myself aged 20 - is this: Start small. You can still write stories that interest you, just shrink 'em down. Rather, say, than writing a massive epic about factional clashes why not write a tale of a warrior on a quest? It can still be in that world, just don't worry too much about the actual creation of the world. Consider a book like the Hobbit and how simplistic that is compared to Lord of The rings. You can still write science fiction, but again keep it minimalist and do it well. Keep the factions and currencies and gods out unless you are absolutely settled on their use and can absolutely make it work. Work your way up. The most technically easiest narrative tends to involve just one person written in third person about something straightforward - such as Hemingway's Old Man And The Sea. If you find the idea of a story with only one main character impossibly dull that's cool, but then start with two: Perhaps a romantic couple, perhaps some kind of duel, perhaps a manhunt for a killer, whatever. These don't have to be boring plots. With anything middle-road comes an opportunity to turn things upside down, subvert and pervert, challenge tropes, etc.

Of course I also appreciate this viewpoint is only relevant to those who genuinely aspire to "make it" as authors. If you write for fun and pleasing only yourself or a narrow group then anything goes...

I don't know, what do you think?


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## Jack of all trades (Oct 20, 2017)

I think a writer is limited only by his daring, or lack thereof.

J.K. Rowling spent a fair amount of time imagining the world of Harry Potter before writing it. I read recently that she wrote bits and pieces, some thrown out, before tackling the first book. Indeed, even before those bits, she spent time stuck at a train station with nothing to write on and imagined Harry and the wizarding world that Muggles can't see.

Before Harry, though, she had written other stories. Harry was the first one friends thought was good enough to be published.

I also heard from a librarian, around the time of book four, that Rowling had all seven books mapped out in, at least, a vague way.


Leaving Rowling, why not create a whole new world?

I do two types of writing. Detective books in the real world and scifi (with a writing partner). It gets easier as you go along, but why restrict yourself to short stories?

Even the detective books have their own world. It's just not quite as unique. However the characters all are unique. And they grew as I wrote. I had to go back and add stuff at the beginning that I hadn't known about the characters initially.

Short stories are fine. But they are their own entity. Novels are different. They are not longer stories.

I don't get the part about having not read enough, either. But maybe the fact that I went through withdrawal if I didn't have something to read every day has something to do with it.

Sometimes I think folks make writing so much harder than it has to be. Those that succeed ultimately do so because they write. They don't worry that they haven't read enough. They don't worry that they don't understand arcs. They don't worry about whether sentence structure and language choices are more important than plot. They have something in their minds that they want to commit to paper (or computer), to keep for a very long time. And when they feel compelled to share it, they do so. And the rest takes care of itself.


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## VonBradstein (Oct 20, 2017)

I agree that people do make it harder than it has to be. However it is still, I think, hard.  And I don't agree, unfortunately, that just writing is the answer to everything in terms of creating a commercially viable product. Sure, writing a lot is the most important part to being a good writer. But it's not actually in my opinion more important than reading a lot - if you don't have time to read you don't have time to write. I would put reading on equal footing with writing. I would then put research, character development, seeking critique, critiquing others, and learning good grammar close behind those two on the totem pole. Maybe worry isn't the right word, but you do need to be disciplined and mindful of these things. Just cranking out stuff endlessly isn't going to really improve you, in my opinion. Though there are no doubt a lot of people who spend way too much time 'writing about writing', no doubt about that.

Ultimately writing for a living is as much about designing and managing a product as it is creating an art form. Not a nice way to think about it - I honestly hate that I just wrote that sentence - but it is what it is. The good part, I think, is that there is a middle way...

A lot of why this matters to me is because I see others making mistakes I did. Naturally there is an element of world making in every fictional work, however the kind of world making I am speaking of is the really tough stuff. Multiple nations on an imaginary world with geography, economies, etc. That kind of thing coming from obvious rookies is where I get concerned - especially when in the next breath they start talking about potentially self-publishing it, or whatever. It makes me want to grab them by the throat and beg them not to waste their time/money/sanity. A lot of times I feel like they are actually decent writers and probably do have something but are just not ready for what they are trying to do. They will, for instance, come up with a decent concept and then ruin it with a bunch of heavily derivative pseudo-Tolkein stuff rather than extending their invention. Or they'll come up with some technology or language that makes no sense. They will do these things not necessarily because they lack the capacity to do better but just because they have not yet reached the point where they have developed what I call 'the creative muscle'. Imagination is a fickle mistress.

A lot of times I don't understand why, so often, they need to write that book _now_. There's no rule that says you can't put away your great idea and work on your chops until you can execute something that does that idea justice. In fact, I understand plenty of groundbreaking novels came to fruition just like that. I admire writers with the maturity to come up with an idea but put it away until they have invested sufficient time and care in doing the research and figuring everything out probably more than ones who dive straight in. And, more crucially, the story ends up better.

The core problem - and a large reason I care - is because I feel a lot of time new writers are misled about just how challenging the industry is. I feel that the importance of the reader's enjoyment of the output is under-emphasized in favor of 'writing what you wanna write' without a care in the world. Again, I agree you can write what you wanna write if you don't care about it being successful, otherwise I am a strong believer in the need for compromise and discipline and, yeah, steady development of the product and the one who produces.


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## Jack of all trades (Oct 20, 2017)

We all have to make our own mistakes. And just because you felt it was better to quit writing your epic novels doesn't make it best for someone else.

I can't think of anything that's better than completing a project. Even if you never try to publish it, the satisfaction gained and the practice gained is immeasurable.

While I do agree that the reader, aka target audience, must be kept in mind, you shouldn't spend time doing market research when you could be writing.

Boy! This is dejavu, with me arguing the opposite side than I did a year or so ago.


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## Jack of all trades (Oct 20, 2017)

The thing is, I'm in a completely different place than I was a year ago, and in a different world than I was five years ago. So I see the situation differently.

If you see someone relying on Tolkien, gently suggest that person expand the world in unique ways. There will be some resistance. That's OK. This, too, shall pass.

My first attempt at writing anything was actually rewriting the seventh Harry Potter. Fan fiction is like training wheels. It's OK. It's a stepping stone on the path to other things.

There's other paths to get to the destination of being a published author. Fan fic isn't the only way to get started. But it's not the end of the world, either.

That fan fic book can be rewritten without the Tolkien stuff. More likely, it will be set aside and the lessons learned will be applied to something else.

Encourage your fellow writers to do more, but accept them at the level they are at now.


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## VonBradstein (Oct 20, 2017)

My point is in part that most of those projects don't get completed. 

Also I never said my experience is to be applied to others, however I am speaking in terms of what generally works vs what generally does not. In my experience of work shopping with writers of various calibers I have yet to find one rookie who took on a massive world building project first time around and succeeded in anything other than either getting frustrated and giving up or, in the best cases, realizing that as emotionally attached as they were to the project they just were not ready yet.

By all means write, but write to improve. A lot of times I feel like people are genuinely more interested in cramming as many of their ideas in as they are in actually communicating then effectively. And you don't learn by people telling you what you do well, you learn by them telling you what you don't.

I will concede, and perhaps ought to have done earlier, that I don't believe there is only one way of doing things. On the contrary. I personally learned to write largely by copying out writers I admired on a typewriter. Entire books. Crazy really, but doing that helped me understand how the book came together. So I'm all for different ways of learning. My problem with the "just write whatever" approach is i don't think it results in a great product for newbies, or indeed an efficient way to learn, compared to working on the basics and progressing steadily.


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## Jack of all trades (Oct 20, 2017)

The only thing you can really do, however, is gently encourage others.

I disagree that you don't learn by being told what you do well. If you look at a pothole, you're more likely to hit it. You need to focus on where you want the tire to go. So focusing on what you do well is key! 

Gentle suggestions for improvement is all we can do. The seeds may sprout or may die. And we are powerless to influence the outcome.

But sometimes it just takes time for the sprouting to happen.

I understand your frustration. I know I haven't let on that I have. I hate it when a writer is told, "You can keep that totally unrealistic situation. After all, this is fiction! Write what you want. The reader just has to suspend disbelief." And I try to explain that the reader is not obligated to do anything, including reading the piece. Usually it goes over like a lead balloon.

I see the fan fiction stuff a little differently. I see it as an exercise. Riding a stationary bike might not get you anywhere, but it builds the muscles necessary to make riding a regular bike easier.

And now I bid you adieu. I have enjoyed our private discussion, so thank you. It will be interesting to see other viewpoints when I return.


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## Olly Buckle (Oct 20, 2017)

> My point is in part that most of those projects don't get completed.



Provided they don't put you off writing alltogether I don't see the harm. I have a fair few of them, so do you by the sound of it, and it didn't put us off. I don't know about you, but for me it was all good practice, I reckon it is worth writing almost anything for the practice so long as you can look at it with a critical eye later.


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## VonBradstein (Oct 20, 2017)

Olly Buckle said:


> Provided they don't put you off writing alltogether I don't see the harm. I have a fair few of them, so do you by the sound of it, and it didn't put us off. I don't know about you, but for me it was all good practice, I reckon it is worth writing almost anything for the practice so long as you can look at it with a critical eye later.



Yes, and perhaps I should clarify. There's nothing wrong with it. It's not a matter of right and wrong, exactly. I think what I was saying may have got derailed a little. My fault. 

My issue is actually more with us - as in anybody who has been doing this awhile - and that I cannot in good conscience tell a bright eyed kid who really wants to be a writer someday that their multi volume faction based fantasy epic with elves and goblins or their futuristic multi planetary space opera is a good place to start their journey for the reasons explained - it's extremely rare to the point of being next to impossible they will be able to write it well.

That being said I love to be proven wrong and do not wish to force people's hand. If they continue with it anyway, more power to them. I try to approach everything I read and critique with an open mind and judge it on its merits. It's just an unfortunate fact that it's never those books that impress me from newer writers. The ones that tend to impress me and work best (and, for that matter, seem to fair best as far as landing agents) are original concepts with simple plots and settings and time invested in developing characters. Often the very best "first books" are drawn from something the writer knows a lot about from their outside experiences.

 One of my favorite pieces I workshopped was written by a guy who worked in construction and was about a construction worker sent to Mars to build a colony. It worked because he knew a lot about engineering and was interested in space so could write a highly effective piece of science fiction simply by blending his life experiences with his interest. Just one example, but last I heard of that guy he had found an agent and was getting his debut novel edited for publication. If that same fellow had attempted to write about interplanetary warfare across universes and with various alien types I sincerely doubt it would have been as good given he had only been writing for a few months. 

Again I am not trying to generalize everything, but this is my experience with it. I want people to succeed and to be given good direction. That direction starts with fellow writers who all too often treat the notion of "the idea" as a sacred cow and are afraid to come out and say "listen, I admire your cojones, but are you sure this is actually something you can do well?" I strongly believe that most people have enough life knowledge to turn to for at least one really good book. I'm not saying stuff has to be directly based on ones real life - that would be horribly limiting - but it's a good place to start.

Regarding Tolkien, I have come across at least two different agents who actually state on their websites that they will not read any fantasy based on European cultures, which is a pretty good indicator of just how much garbage is being churned out. 


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## bdcharles (Oct 20, 2017)

Well, first of all, hands up who here thinks the next Tolkien biography should be called _Touching Hobbits_? *raises hand* 

To the subject at hand, I am ever conscious of this. I went through the best part of 4 decades thinking, believing, _knowing _that writing was something Other People Did. My English lecturer at college (I guess the senior high equivalent) called me an "Embarrassment to the Department", and to be fair, she was right; I sucked. It was only relatively recently when I realised I had been plagued by the contents of my head to my detriment, that I knew I needed to do something about that. And so I piled in to what became a 170,000* word fantasy, sheened over with a style that trends towards the hyperflorid that I *gasp* actually use in real life - mostly with 2 friends who are the same, though the effect is surprising when it creeps into a work email. I wouldn't say the WIP is an epic because it doesn't have quite that sweeping scope but conventional wisdom (as opposed to the unconventional kind) says it's too long. But that was what was in my head; 170K worth of made up imaginings that had started to feel more like a prison. 

Since then, I have written some short stories, flash, stuff here and there but my main driver is passion. If I am not geeking out about something specific I struggle to do it. It's not just the writing per se (although I do love a sublime expression that has been machined to microns of perfection), but the writing about what I happen to be writing about, that does it for me. But arguably all the OP is good advice. It's just that I do everything the wrong way around 


* since chopped to 137K if any AGENTS are reading this...


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## Olly Buckle (Oct 20, 2017)

There is also the worry that by telling them  how to do it 'right' we suffocate an innovative and individual way of doing it 'wrong' that would have lead to something. I know it is unlikely, but it worries me, those completely different things are the cutting edge once honed.


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## Plasticweld (Oct 20, 2017)

Do you learn from failure and are you challenged to improve yourself when you are less than able. 

Ambition is a great thing, it can lead to the un-attainable be accomplished, it leads to humility and with age wisdom. 

Writing is a lot like running. 

I started a few years ago with the goal of running a 10 mile 32 obstacle course and figured it was a reasonable goal.  When I started training on my first run I only made it 3/4 of a mile before gasping for breath and this was with no obstacles. 

The reality of the task sunk it. I made me double my efforts, I was made aware of how  lacking I was. 

I put in a ton of time, gave up many things.  I trained when I had the chance, read and researched all that I could, became involved with people that were doing it and gained from their knowledge and past experience.   Basically the Writingforums of the running world. 

While I am a real fan and promoter of short stories, _with the same concept that if you can't get it done in a 1000 words, what makes you think you can get it done in 60,000  _picking a lofty goal means you need to really apply yourself to the task, you can write a lot of bad short stories or even half way decent ones and really not be forced to learn the finer points. 


I did not really learn about running until I trained for my first ultra-marathon, the tools need to run fifty miles made the running a ten mile race look like a piece of cake.  I failed a bunch of times, learned a lot of things the hard way but in the end for me the choice of a tough obstacle for a first set the stand and the expectation that would last.


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## Pete_C (Oct 20, 2017)

It does sound harsh, but when I read a post from someone planning a 17 book series about the planet Zwing I know that's not going to happen, ever, but we've all got to start somewhere. Then, after a few thousand words they'll change their mind and start their 20 novel series about a prince with a golden foot. Planet Zwing will be something they'll return too, they'll tell us. Eventually they'll realise that they actually want to write their 30 volume opus about Terry, the monster from the 17th dimension.

The point is that each attempt involves some writing, and writing is something that you only get good at with practice. No one (and I mean no one) just picks up a pen (remember them?) and dashes off a good story. Even published and successful writers throw away more words than they ever keep.

There will come a time when they realise that their goals are not realistic and they'll settle back into concentrating on their craft, honing their skills and perfecting smaller pieces of work. Are we going to help them reach that point by telling them that their 40 novel series about Prudence the hairy-backed acrobatic freedom fighter is doomed to fail? Let them practice and if they are serious about writing they'll learn their approach is a fool's errand and adapt. If they're not serious they'll give it up.

There are phases in a writer's development. The first spurt of eagerness and excitement results in the creation of much crap with no great value, but it is enjoyable. It gets them addicted. Then they start to see they're producing much crap, and either delve into studying books about writing, or they change tack and produce much pretentious crap! Then after practice and more practice they'll have a Eureka moment and start to understand the work and toil they need to put in. That's when it starts to get tough...

That's also probably the first point that they'll listen to and take on board advice offered by others!


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## JustRob (Oct 20, 2017)

I'm ever the erratic on this site, geologically speaking a stone that's rolled in from somewhere else. When I started writing I was 66 years old and had no intention of doing it. I only did it at all because I found in my mind this overwhelming story which was inhibiting its normal functioning. Psychologists would no doubt call it dissociated thought, but I just called it a gross nuisance. I certainly had no intention of solving the problem by spending any time on the writers' nursery slopes, so just went ahead with writing a full length novel with two more potentially to follow. The novel was based on a short story that I had written a couple of years earlier under similar annoying circumstances. That is effectively the sum total of my writing career apart from odd indulgences here in WF and a technical article published in a journal on computer conservation.

Complication, complexity, consistency and continuity are all second nature to me as I spent my working life designing and developing reliable computer systems and developing information modelling technology. I am also a mathematician and logician virtually by first nature. Consequently the one thing that my writing would not fail on was the integrity of the story, so it didn't matter whether it was a complex saga spanning a trilogy of novels or a simple short story. What actually mattered was the information contained in it, which had to be documented and authenticated within a limited time, not that I understood the nature of the urgency when I was writing it, but that's another story which I have written here far too often already. The point is that I met my objectives and, if a by-product of the process was a reasonably well written and entertaining novel, then that was a bonus. 

When I submitted the opening hundred pages of my nascent novel to a professional service to get guidance on whether I was heading in the right direction, just out of curiosity, their reader did actually say "Don't write that, write this," because he was enthralled by the character in my opening chapter of a private detective from my original short story, who was actually only a minor one in the novel and a way of introducing the reader to the science fiction world that I had created. This advisor suggested that I write solely about the further exploits of this hapless detective in my time-warped world instead of taking the reader to see the people behind it, who worked in what appeared to be a quite boring office. I pointed out that although the detective's story would be entertaining I couldn't write it as I had spent most of my life in a quite boring office and was best able to bring such an environment to life in my writing. Therefore I wrote what amounted to a complex detective story set in a boring office, but unwary readers don't hunt for clues when they haven't been told that the story requires them to, so perhaps they do need to be beaten about the head with more obvious action-packed stories. I did put the words "about something else" under the main title of the novel, just as a clue that things weren't quite what they seemed, even to me as it turned out.

I also rearranged the order of the chapters so that the enthralling detective only appeared fleetingly in a later chapter and instead opened the story with an allegorical young lady representing the errant muse who had implanted the cursed saga in my mind in the first place. My main character, whom I perversely named Graham, implying that he was as grey and boring as the place where he worked, wasn't mentioned by name in the opening chapter even though he was in it much of the time. In fact the whole novel was a challenge to any casual reader to discover the enjoyment concealed within it and also riddled with pitfalls for any critical reader to fall joyously into, thinking that novice writers by definition can't compose complex stories without including glaring errors. In fact composing stories and writing them are two quite distinct skills.

I may be an extreme exception to the normal evolution of a writer, but  exceptions prove the rule and the rule is that we each have our own  objectives in writing and hence or own most appropriate approaches. General guidelines are all to the good, but ultimately we must think for ourselves how to proceed.


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## moderan (Oct 20, 2017)

Starting small, learning to characterize, resolve plot, etc., it what I recommend when mentoring. It's just good to have those skills...and one can work toward the epic by concentrating efforts on that 'world' and developing for it. Fantasy worldbuilding is a complex task, and it really helps to have specialized knowledge, sociology, linguistics, history, to have the perspective such works demand. SF worldbuilding likewise --  that necessitates scientific knowledge in many disciplines to emerge as a coherent whole.
Finishing is a skill, too. It takes practice.


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## VonBradstein (Oct 21, 2017)

Wow I didn't imagine such great discussion when I started this thread!

I won't flog the horse much further on this, but I kind of agree and disagree with the view that people need to be left alone decide for themselves. Agree in the sense it's obviously the right principle but disagree in the sense that talent is a fragile thing and for every productive writer I believe there exists a hidden casualty list of those whom were mentored poorly. I guess ultimately there's two schools of thought - the sink or swim school and the one that advocates taking an active (as opposed to merely passive) interest in these guys.

Case in point Peter Straub tried to make it as a writer of literary fiction. His first novel was very mainstream and is generally considered to be crap (i read it and it's not great). He was told upfront by his agent (back in the days when it was easier to get one) that if he wanted a career in writing he should try to write gothic horror as the agent believed it more befitting for his style. He is now one of the most influential and successful horror authors of all time. I'm just saying, I would personally love to have that kind of advice from a qualified individual as opposed to being left to "figure it out"


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## Jack of all trades (Oct 21, 2017)

Well, I bet some folks here would be willing to give you an opinion. Not sure how "qualified" we are.

Have you tried submitting to agents? You might get lucky.


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## Jay Greenstein (Oct 21, 2017)

I have to disagree. If your goal is to write fiction it's best to start by learning to write fiction.

Remember all those book reports, essays and papers we wrote in our school days? That was to prepare us to write reports, essays and papers for future employers. We wrote damn little fiction. And what we wrote was graded by someone who probably never sold a word of fiction. In reality, we are no more qualified to write fiction on graduation from high school (or college with only a creative writing class) than to fly a 747. Of course we know we can't fly commercial aircraft without training, and don't try it. Not so fiction, because we all believe that writing is writing, and we already know how to do that.

If only.

Did our schooling teach us to write a screenplay? No. Nor did it make us playwrights, tech-writers or journalists. And watching TV didn't make us screenwriters any more than reading fiction teaches us the three questions a reader wants addressed on entering any scene. So while we have a sincere desire to write, virtually all of us come to writing without a clue that our skill-set is of use only for nonfiction. Doesn't it make sense that if we want our work to read like that of a pro we need to know what a pro knows?


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## bdcharles (Oct 21, 2017)

Pete_C said:


> a 17 book series about the planet Zwing ... 20 novel series about a prince with a golden foot ... their 30 volume opus about Terry, the monster from the 17th dimension.



Hehe I am in manuscript-wishlist heaven right now.

Of course these three things could easily be combined into one still-relatively-sweeping epic ... just putting it out there ...


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## VonBradstein (Oct 21, 2017)

Pete_C said:


> It does sound harsh, but when I read a post from someone planning a 17 book series about the planet Zwing I know that's not going to happen, ever, but we've all got to start somewhere. Then, after a few thousand words they'll change their mind and start their 20 novel series about a prince with a golden foot. Planet Zwing will be something they'll return too, they'll tell us. Eventually they'll realise that they actually want to write their 30 volume opus about Terry, the monster from the 17th dimension.
> 
> The point is that each attempt involves some writing, and writing is something that you only get good at with practice. No one (and I mean no one) just picks up a pen (remember them?) and dashes off a good story. Even published and successful writers throw away more words than they ever keep.
> 
> ...



I think you articulate your view well and certainly I don't disagree. It sounds like we share a similar outlook in many ways.

One thing, I think this has wandered off the trail a little bit and some nuance is needed so as to avoid mischaracterization of the debate: I do not advocate telling people categorically they are going to fail. Perhaps i may have inadvertently said something that suggested that but if that is the case I take it back. Firstly, that is not my judgement to make. It isn't anybody's, I don't care how advanced or successful they are. When all is said and done there is no one authority on any creative art form. Secondly, it is infinitely correct that is not a good approach ESPECIALLY with beginners still finding their voice.

What I did, and still do advocate is instead taking active interest in writers development beyond simply critiquing the work in question. I think it is valid to critique the writer themselves, their motivations and choices. I do not believe there is a line that should be drawn in criticism. Basically if I see you writing about Planet Zwing and have reason to believe you don't have the skill, knowledge or frankly the dedication to successfully execute your idea I think I have an obligation to share that view with you and, in the interests of being constructive, offer a better suggestion based on my experience (which must be made available to the writer ultimately making the call). If that advice is ignored, no problem!

In the first line of my first post to this thread I stated as much: that the title of the thread was joking and I don't actually advocate an absolutist view even if I believed I or anybody else was qualified to provide one. 

That being said, I offered the Straub anecdote as an example of what I do feel is a good agent doing their job. In the context of this forum and real world work shopping, assuming nobody here is an active literary agent, my suggestion is that in discussing a writer's WIP and offering feedback when appropriate we try to ease the burden on the publishing professionals who have to sift through the Zwing novels, ourselves when asked for feedback constantly, and more than anything the writer themselves by not contributing to any delusions or illusions about the complexity and challenge of a project vs the apparent ability of the writer behind it. 

Basically, I think we should all be free to ask the writer the hard questions about that kind of stuff without feeling like pariahs out to stonewall creativity and development. Actually, I think we are obligated to share those feelings when the arise as to not do so is to withhold potentially valuable help to others. This is not the same as telling people they're failures or idiots or that they need to stop.


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## Olly Buckle (Oct 21, 2017)

bdcharles said:


> Hehe I am in manuscript-wishlist heaven right now.
> 
> Of course these three things could easily be combined into one still-relatively-sweeping epic ... just putting it out there ...


Look mate. it's bad enough having Pete stealing the elements of my plot without you recombining them,. Thank goodness he left out the ninja princess and the polar bear whisperer, too original to steal I guess.


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## VonBradstein (Oct 21, 2017)

Olly Buckle said:


> Look mate. it's bad enough having Pete stealing the elements of my plot without you recombining them,. Thank goodness he left out the ninja princess and the polar bear whisperer, too original to steal I guess.



At least he didn't touch any of my 643,000 word trilogy about space hobbits.


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## JustRob (Oct 21, 2017)

When it comes to advice this site has many generous members in that they are often more willing to give advice than take it. I have no qualms about numbering myself amongst them, but my ambition is _not_ to be a writer. Perhaps those who genuinely do should take a different approach, so I agree with the original sentiment of this thread. Where the mind leads the pen must follow though.

My own deviant mind lighted upon the possibility that Straub's agent actually told him that his style was horrible and he simply misunderstood.


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## Annoying kid (Oct 21, 2017)

> A lot of times I feel like people are genuinely more interested in cramming as many of their ideas in as they are in actually communicating then effectively.



I agree and disagree in some respects. During the early stages of writing a novel they should be doing just that. Putting as many ideas down as they can. Character traits, names, places, lines, action and scenes (instead of short shories), particularly the scenes and character interactions that inspired to begin with. All this will be needed later as the raw materials from which to construct a novel. Where the new writer goes wrong, they don't write the action, lines and scenes. Because the term worldbuilding is a misnomer, they spend too much time on setting. One of the biggest criticisms I have of writers, especially on forums, is they have really deep magic systems, really deep religions and politics, but the scenes themselves are utilitarian. The style and flair is often missing. 

When I see these super complex magic systems posted on forums, that inflict heavy limits on what a character can and can't do that essentially reduces the character to mere avatars of the system, I ask myself how on Earth you're supposed to build a story around this. Over on a different writing forum, someone posted about their &nbsp;world's religion...it was unreadable. They name dropped way too much. Like The Plythea has tensions the Aroundar and because they pervert the laws of Avaarda, which they go onto meticulously explain with extreme tedium. It's like what are you even talking about? They take the idea of deeper must = better and they misinterpret "deeper" to mean "more detailed.

Another asked if they can write a whole chapter of just nothing but infodumping on their magic system. Like literally a teacher explaining it to a class. Boring. New writers should be putting ideas down and writing scenes not &nbsp;"amazing" magic systems and economies as the ultimate goal, but to develop the artistic side of storytelling itself. Art is not function. Its gradually learning to be captivating. Prose, or in my case drawing, is one aspect and only the means to an end. It's the imagery.


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## Jack of all trades (Oct 21, 2017)

Some people take the "dump it all in when writing then cut out the extra" approach. I like the "write the basics and add in what's missing" approach. We have to go with what works best for us.

I think there's a natural tendency to believe others are like ourselves. So one strongly advocates cutting if that's what one does most when editing. Likewise, if one wants to know what's not working plotwise, one points out plot errors. That's natural.

As for telling writers what not to write? You can offer the suggestions, but don't expect it to go over well. 

If you want to know if your style is working for a particular piece, put a note at the beginning asking for that kind of feedback. Or follow-up with those who post their critiques and ask for their opinions on the subject. You can always send a PM to someone whose writing you like or critiques you agree with and ask that person to give you the feedback you're looking for.


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## Annoying kid (Oct 21, 2017)

> Some people take the "dump it all in when writing then cut out the extra" approach



I wasn't advocating that when writing, but rather before starting to write the first draft. Just having this big resource of information to draw from so when you need it it's there. It cuts down on writer's block tremendously.


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## Jack of all trades (Oct 21, 2017)

Annoying kid said:


> I wasn't advocating that when writing, but rather before starting to write the first draft. Just having this big resource of information to draw from so when you need it it's there. It cuts down on writer's block tremendously.



If that workd for you, fine. I find it annoying to have to check references. I remember what the various pieces are after they've been added to the story, so I just make it up as I go along. I might make a reference sheet as I'm writing, but that's usually names, dates and places.

To each his own.


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## Annoying kid (Oct 21, 2017)

> To each his own.



I would never recommend your style to a beginner. Too intellectually labour intensive. Too likely to result in the new writer just staring at a blank document for hours.


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## VonBradstein (Oct 21, 2017)

Annoying kid said:


> I wasn't advocating that when writing, but rather before starting to write the first draft. Just having this big resource of information to draw from so when you need it it's there. It cuts down on writer's block tremendously.



Interesting perspective. I can't work that way personally. I get the logic of it but it doesn't work for me to intentionally allow a gargantuan mess and then whittle it down. I find there’s enough “mess” to be found when I try to write succinctly. I actually would suggest that writing a first draft with no clear direction is counter productive and will lead to more work than it’s worth later on , but each to his own of course. I also personally do not subscribe to any philosophy that says first drafts should be written as first drafts. I write everything with the intent on it being the final draft - though of course that never actually happens.


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## Annoying kid (Oct 21, 2017)

VonBradstein said:


> Interesting perspective. I can't work that way personally. I get the logic of it but it doesn't work for me to intentionally allow a gargantuan mess and then whittle it down. I find there’s enough “mess” to be found when I try to write succinctly. I actually would suggest that writing a first draft with no clear direction is counter productive and will lead to more work than it’s worth later on , but each to his own of course. I also personally do not subscribe to any philosophy that says first drafts should be written as first drafts. I write everything with the intent on it being the final draft - though of course that never actually happens.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Again, I'm not talking about the first draft. I'm saying all this stream of consciousness work should be before thefirst draft is started. There's no pressure at all to write in good prose here or even to necessarily be coherent. It's creativity unrestrained by process. It doesn't get edited.


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## VonBradstein (Oct 21, 2017)

Annoying kid said:


> Again, I'm not talking about the first draft. I'm saying all this stream of consciousness work should be before thefirst draft is started. There's no pressure at all to write in good prose here or even to necessarily be coherent. It's creativity unrestrained by process. It doesn't get edited.



Ah, okay, so a first draft to a first draft? 

No, I'm kidding. I understand... Basically you sit down, comprehend a prompt of some kind and then write X number of paragraphs and sentences in a stream of consciousness format. The technique is fairly common - I had a professor who forced us to do this when I was studying for my BA. 

I say 'forced' because I will once again be that guy and say that I hated this and it never worked for me. I have a brain that does the same thing much faster and with less propensity for cramps. I am fine with planning work, but it never felt like planning to me. It also never felt particularly liberating to lift nonsense from my brain to a page. The way I plan is to come up with a basic idea in my head - usually just a scant outline of a character or place, and then if its complex I hammer out a synopsis. If it is not particularly complex (or if its just very short) I usually don't even bother. What works for me is to write a couple thousand words or so each night from point-to-point and when I arrive at a place where I'm not sure which way to go I stop, go to bed, think of it as I go to sleep (amazing how that works) and usually figure it out that way. Usually 

I suppose my synopsis would be my version of what you are talking about, so point is taken, but this would be a matter for a discussion on the planning process and isn't really what we were discussing - unless I missed an agreed detour along the way? I know of no writers who are able due to time and sanity constraints to stream-of-consciousness an entire novel-length work (unless they're into composing a stream of consciousness novel, in which case that's a whole new can of worms). Usually that kind of thing is a few pages at most, from what I have encountered. If it works for somebody, great. In any case, there is of course a fundamental difference between people embarking on writing 'The War Of Planet Zwing: Parts I - X' who want to get it published and read as is and people writing 'The War Of Planet Zwing: Parts I - X' with the sole intent of using bits and pieces to create a simpler, more manageable, and more salable work.


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## Annoying kid (Oct 21, 2017)

You haven't attempted to  write the big epic fantasy though as you said in the OP. I'm trying to communicate a way that new writers can do it effectively. What I did was I just kept talking. I knew the value of just not stopping and I saved the most important chat logs. That was a big part of it and it didn't feel like work. What I'm trying to say is that if a new writer is struggling with a big epic fantasy work then they are doing it wrong. They're doing it out of step. It's a step by step process where if the writer is taking each step gradually and not jumping ahead, then each step should be within the writer's means to accomplish at any given time. If you're struggling to write a story you're passionate about, you're not writing the wrong story, you're not advancing in a logical sequence of actions. One needs to re-evaluate.


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## Jack of all trades (Oct 22, 2017)

Annoying kid said:


> Again, I'm not talking about the first draft. I'm saying all this stream of consciousness work should be before thefirst draft is started. There's no pressure at all to write in good prose here or even to necessarily be coherent. It's creativity unrestrained by process. It doesn't get edited.



Sounds like a first draft to me. Except for the "doesn't get edited" part.


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## Annoying kid (Oct 22, 2017)

Jack of all trades said:


> Sounds like a first draft to me. Except for the "doesn't get edited" part.



How do you define a first draft? If I open a word document and ramble on about elves or the powers of characters, or telling major events in a vague way, or writing character studies informally, would you consider that a first draft?


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## Jack of all trades (Oct 22, 2017)

Annoying kid said:


> How do you define a first draft? If I open a word document and ramble on about elves or the powers of characters, or telling major events in a vague way, or writing character studies informally, would you consider that a first draft?



If writing those things first works for you, yes.

I, when I write about other worlds, create those things on the fly, side by side with the story.

What I was really referring to, with my remark, is the "stream of consciousness" and the "no pressure to write good prose". I'm certain that will seem alien to some, possibly many, but I don't worry about good prose when I write. I try, instead, to capture the moments as I imagine them. Word choice, and the like, can be corrected during editing.


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## Moonbeast32 (Oct 22, 2017)

I want you to know something, VonBradstein. This is exactly what I needed to hear at this point in my life.


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## Kyle R (Oct 22, 2017)

Starting with short stories and progressing to longer works is certainly one way to do it.

Though I've heard from many authors who just started by churning out novels. The first piece of fiction my wife wrote, for example, was a 150,000-word novel. She wrote in that length because it's the length of fiction that she's used to reading. For her (and, I imagine, for other writers like her), writing _short_ feels more difficult, and isn't always the easier route.

I suppose my point is: there's no one-size-fits-all approach that'll work for everyone. For some, writing short fiction and building the habit of completion is a great way to go into it. For others, writing long fiction might feel more natural (and less daunting) than trying to cram a full story into a few thousand words.

For me, writing short fiction has helped me learn many of the fundamentals that go into long fiction. But, I've also discovered that long fiction is a different kind of beast. There are certain skills and approaches required of novel-length stories that my short-fiction writing didn't adequately prepare me for.

So I'm in full agreement with those who say: If you want to get better at writing short stories, write a lot of short stories. If you want to get better at writing novels, write a lot of novels. :encouragement:


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## Annoying kid (Oct 22, 2017)

Jack of all trades said:


> If writing those things first works for you, yes.
> 
> I, when I write about other worlds, create those things on the fly, side by side with the story.
> 
> What I was really referring to, with my remark, is the "stream of consciousness" and the "no pressure to write good prose". I'm certain that will seem alien to some, possibly many, but I don't worry about good prose when I write. I try, instead, to capture the moments as I imagine them. Word choice, and the like, can be corrected during editing.



 You seriously write large scale epic or high fantasy or sci fi blind (no prior worldbuilding and planning outside of your head)? And you could do this as a beginner?  You must have been some prodigy because I would have found this impossible as a beginner. Not difficult. Im-possible. 

 Course everybody's a genius on the internet.


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## VonBradstein (Oct 22, 2017)

Moonbeast32 said:


> I want you to know something, VonBradstein. This is exactly what I needed to hear at this point in my life.



Assuming it’s not sarcasm then you are welcome! I have made it sort of my life goal to help other authors in ways I was not.

 while at this moment so cannot speak to being any sort of expert or authority on anything I also believe wisdom is an evolving construct for everybody and what little of it I have with a degree of certainty I will share. 


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## VonBradstein (Oct 22, 2017)

Kyle R said:


> Starting with short stories and progressing to longer works is certainly one way to do it.
> 
> Though I've heard from many authors who just started by churning out novels. The first piece of fiction my wife wrote, for example, was a 150,000-word novel. She wrote in that length because it's the length of fiction that she's used to reading. For her (and, I imagine, for other writers like her), writing _short_ feels more difficult, and isn't always the easier route.
> 
> ...



I agree to an extent. I don’t write many short stories anymore and most of it is because I like to really dig deep into psyches and motivations and spend a good amount of time with my characters. I like the slow burn of a longer work. The problem with short stories is they are just that, short. It’s for similar reasons that I no longer regularly write poetry and flash fiction? Fuggedaboudit.

I will say however that I believe learning to write short fiction is an essential step for most and that is a good thing. I respect your anecdote about your wife and can appreciate that view, however your post does not mention (and I shall refrain from putting you in the position to furnish an answer) as to how good her novel was. I’m going to hazard a guess it had some pretty critical problems as far as character arcs, plot holes, and general structure. If it went great that’s awesome, but the point is if the average fledgling author with an acorn of talent does not discipline themselves to at least creating serviceable work in the short form I do not believe they have much hope of completing a decent novel.

Why do I say that? Because of empirical evidence and logic. The evidence is most (though not all) novelists start as short story writers to some degree. Others start as journalists, essayists or even screenwriters but the function is much the same. These shorter, less word heavy mediums build skills in communicating ideas clearly and rapidly, constructing a basic start-middle-end, and - most crucially - in building their confidence early through creating a repertoire of competed work. Logic says much like a trainee carpenter doesn’t go straight for big projects without first making, say, a box or a chair (unless their name is Noah and theyre six hundred years old) the simpler things should be mastered to competency before the more complex are even attempted. 

I do agree that once the groundwork is done the focus should be on the medium(s) of choice, just not that the first steps are bypassed. When i tutor kids who want to write I usually have them start by completing a short essay to a simple prompt and getting really good at doing that. I would never have them start by engaging in a novel. 


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## VonBradstein (Oct 22, 2017)

Jack of all trades said:


> If writing those things first works for you, yes.
> 
> I, when I write about other worlds, create those things on the fly, side by side with the story.
> 
> What I was really referring to, with my remark, is the "stream of consciousness" and the "no pressure to write good prose". I'm certain that will seem alien to some, possibly many, but I don't worry about good prose when I write. I try, instead, to capture the moments as I imagine them. Word choice, and the like, can be corrected during editing.



And that is totally fine. Possibly a very useful technique.

It also has nothing to do with the point of this thread, which is - was - about offering advice to new writers on which work to pursue and why certain kinds of work should be avoided, if I remember right. 

I don’t mind tangents and respect all views but it’s getting a little out of hand.


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## Jack of all trades (Oct 22, 2017)

How many kids would want to write an entire novel?

Apples and oranges. And there needs to be more respect for what works for others. If something doesn't work for you, then don't do it. If something does work for you, do that. Stop implying that what doesn't work for you doesn't really work for someone else.

And my point about the worldbuilding on the fly is about letting the creative juices flow more freely during the writing process. I'm putting an alternate method out there for those reading this thread to consider. Turning off the editor and not worrying about writing polished prose can make the writing phase more enjoyable and make it more likely that the project will be completed. I think newbies deserve to hear from both sides. I think they're intelligent enough to try both ways and see what works.


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## Jack of all trades (Oct 22, 2017)

VonBradstein said:


> And that is totally fine. Possibly a very useful technique.
> 
> It also has nothing to do with the point of this thread, which is - was - about offering advice to new writers on which work to pursue and why certain kinds of work should be avoided, if I remember right.
> 
> ...



Ah. You expect a lengthy discussion to remain on topic. Fine. Then please remind me. What is the point? How to tell others they're doing things wrong? Or was it something else? I think we got off on tangents yesterday, but by all means, point us in the right direction.


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## VonBradstein (Oct 22, 2017)

Jack of all trades said:


> Ah. You expect a lengthy discussion to remain on topic. Fine. Then please remind me. What is the point? How to tell others they're doing things wrong? Or was it something else? I think we got off on tangents yesterday, but by all means, point us in the right direction.



Not so much that, but I get little pop up messages on subscribed threads - which I like reading and responding to when I’m pretending to be doing my day job and cannot do my writing - and I kind of feel you guys are going nowhere and perhaps bordering on the hostile with certain comments. Obviously a mod can weigh in on that, Im not all that bothered, I’m just not personally learning a lot from the whole immovable object vs unstoppable force thing, especially on a matter that isn’t all that interesting - the better way to write first drafts, really?

Nobody has to listen to me, of course!


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## JustRob (Oct 23, 2017)

I think that novice world-builders don't appreciate the fundamental principles, that any system moves towards a stable state, even if that state involves relatively regular cycles of events. I have read descriptions of worlds which have been substantially unstable for a very long time, which introduces disbelief in a reader's mind right from the start. It is actually difficult to create a world which differs significantly from ours but is stable, so this initial instability is virtually inevitable. That's why post-apocalypse stories are popular, because all flaws in the world can be attributed to a recent upheaval. Usually such stories don't even end with a stable state but just imply that the situation is improving. A skilled world builder spends a lot of time just creating the stable state of his world before introducing the chaotic factors. _Lord of The Rings_ is an example of this, moving from stable to unstable and then back to stable again. Novice writers focus on the middle of the story, where the exciting action and conflict are, but the skilled writing is in the beginnings and endings of such stories.

When I wrote my science fiction novel I included three fictional factors which only applied in a small region of our normal world. Mathematically three variables are enough to create a chaotic system, our planet's weather system for example or the classic three bodies problem in dynamics. Many science fiction stories have been constructed using just one or two fictional factors. John Wyndham's stories are examples. Enthusiastic novice writers introduce far too many variables in an attempt to make their worlds distinctive but then can't handle the consequent dynamics. The result is a story which starts in chaos and ends in chaos. The only way to get a decent story out of that is to play down the surrounding chaos and focus solely on the lives of the central characters, but that means that the writer is still putting a lot of effort into creating what is effectively just the background to the story. 

Basically stories are about change and that is a problem in dynamics. Whatever one writes about, one has to be able to handle the dynamics. Even the traditional eternal triangle story is just a social restatement of the three bodies problem. 

I was an avid fan of the old _Babylon Five_ "space opera" series on TV and have the complete box set of DVDs. Unlike Star Trek the whole series was an ongoing story with proper character arcs. It was a shame that it was axed before the story ended and eventually the final scenes were only played out in books after an irreplaceable key actor died and nobody could envisage him being replaced to finish the work. Despite that it was truly a classic in world-building with ground-breaking visual effects. To be able to write something like that is something _very_ special.


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## VonBradstein (Oct 23, 2017)

JustRob said:


> I think that novice world-builders don't appreciate the fundamental principles, that any system moves towards a stable state, even if that state involves relatively regular cycles of events. I have read descriptions of worlds which have been substantially unstable for a very long time, which introduces disbelief in a reader's mind right from the start. It is actually difficult to create a world which differs significantly from ours but is stable, so this initial instability is virtually inevitable. That's why post-apocalypse stories are popular, because all flaws in the world can be attributed to a recent upheaval. Usually such stories don't even end with a stable state but just imply that the situation is improving. A skilled world builder spends a lot of time just creating the stable state of his world before introducing the chaotic factors. _Lord of The Rings_ is an example of this, moving from stable to unstable and then back to stable again. Novice writers focus on the middle of the story, where the exciting action and conflict are, but the skilled writing is in the beginnings and endings of such stories.
> 
> When I wrote my science fiction novel I included three fictional factors which only applied in a small region of our normal world. Mathematically three variables are enough to create a chaotic system, our planet's weather system for example or the classic three bodies problem in dynamics. Many science fiction stories have been constructed using just one or two fictional factors. John Wyndham's stories are examples. Enthusiastic novice writers introduce far too many variables in an attempt to make their worlds distinctive but then can't handle the consequent dynamics. The result is a story which starts in chaos and ends in chaos. The only way to get a decent story out of that is to play down the surrounding chaos and focus solely on the lives of the central characters, but that means that the writer is still putting a lot of effort into creating what is effectively just the background to the story.
> 
> ...



I think this is probably the best explanation supporting the point so far.






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## Annoying kid (Oct 24, 2017)

> especially on a matter that isn’t all that interesting - the better way to write first drafts, really?



I wasn't discussing the first draft, Jack of Trades was. He kept getting into what works for him now instead of what works or a beginner or even himself as a beginner, which I kept trying to bring it back to. I provided an example of how to break down the large project into logical, manageable steps for a beginner so they don't _have_ to avoid the big fantasy project. But if making it up as he goes along with his first drafts and then editing it did work for him as a beginner for an epic fantasy/sci fi story,  if it's true,  then shouldn't you be trying to refute him Von Bradstein? Because if that is a viable way to get into writing these stories at that stage of a writer's development then why should new writers avoid them for easier projects? 

Here's what I don't understand about you. You say:



> First of all, I think that's impressive. I have been writing for years and its basically my life - I also love epic fantasy/sci fi. Yet I have never tried to write anything like that. It's still boggles my mind whenever I read a really good epic fantasy or space opera how a single man or woman could come up with a world that is so intricate and complex yet so real and consistent with itself. I don't blame any writer from wanting to try it. One day, maybe I will.



If you admitted you don't understand how it's done and that you haven't tried it, how can you argue that someone else shouldn't try it? It would be like if I told a new math student oh don't try calculus! It boggles my mind! Too hard! Well...I don't get calculus, I'm not trying to. I wouldn't know if it is or not. But if I was going to say that regardless, and then someone who's done calculus  suggested ways the new math student can do it, I wouldn't call that off topic, because my entire premise hinges on the idea that it's too hard for the new math student to get into.


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## VonBradstein (Oct 24, 2017)

Annoying kid said:


> If you admitted you don't understand how it's done and that you haven't tried it, how can you argue that someone else shouldn't try it?.



For the umpteenth trillionth time I’m not seriously suggesting people shouldn’t do whatever they want to do. 

For the umpteenth trillionth time I am criticizing not the athlete but the cheerleaders who know better. The people who read ridiculously descriptions of a ridiculously esoteric and elaborate plot with a poorly executed sample of a prologue or whatever and are willing to tell the writer who has clearly only been doing it for a short time and has never completed anything “Don’t listen to him, buddy, he’s a big meanie. You just write what you wanna write, it’s your story, blah blah”

Yeah it is their story. Sure. Thing is that doesn’t mean it has a snowball in heck’s chance of going anywhere and if the writer wants it to go somewhere I think it’s better to gently suggest they lock it away for the future and work on something else first. Again I go back to the carpentry analogy. No responsible master carpenter would tell a newbie they are wise to start off by planning to construct a Spanish Galleon. Not sure what’s so controversial about that.

Yeah, you’re right, I haven’t tried to write an epic, multi faceted novel, because I know I would not be able to do it - yet - and have been working on this for years. That doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate what goes into it as much as somebody starting out attempting such a thing. In fact, I think I can appreciate it more. I know how hard it is to complete a complex book because I know how hard it is to complete a simple one and I have completed several. To be exact, as of right now I have completed four novels of 100,000 plus words (and probably 50ish shorts) all of them exceedingly simple in terms of plot but each - and this is the crucial point - improving on the last in terms of ambition and complexity. 

Now I’m not trying to set myself up as the authority on anything, but I am willing to bet if I am not ready for it neither in most cases is somebody who a few months back maybe read something or played a video game and now wants to emulate *that kind of thing* in a book form. I just think my way is the better way for most people - starting off simply, completing stories, reading back over them, starting new ones, always gradually working in multiple points of view, a larger cast of characters, more intricate arcs, etc. and  ALWAYS with the goal in mind to establish a. comfort level before moving to the next level.

Again, nobody  said this is the only way, but I strongly feel it should be the primary modus operandi of mentorship barring the emergence of some prodigal talent. You may disagree with that, no problem, that is the point of the thread. That said, just being obtuse or rattling on about how I don’t know what I’m talking about and repeating that there are other ways is not terribly helpful. If you do genuinely know another sensible ways of getting a novice writer to a good level that doesn’t involve a version what I describe, please do enlighten and provide a basic template of what that looks like and perhaps even throw in a couple of examples of who has written that way and s’all good.


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## bdcharles (Oct 24, 2017)

Let's face it: this is a reframing of the old plotting-vs-pantsing debate, otherwise known as the Totally Irreconcilable Argument. 

I pants. I have pantsed, will pants, am pantsing, and shall have pantsed now and forevermore, for everything is pantsable. There. I said it. My first novel was a fully-pantsed-up operation. I used to rage against the plotters, would fling my underpants at them. How can they be so blind? I screamed at passers-by, loved ones, the world. What joy is there in knowing how things are going to pan out? Bah!, and Pants!, I howled, for plotting is the way to creative stagnation!

Then I started on my second novel as part of NaNoBuildARocketMo in 2015. Within 3 days I hated my WIP and felt depressed, as though I'd been inside a pokey caravan for a British summer. At first I wasn't sure why. I convinced myself I was having some sort of writerly angst. I smoked, I drank, I consorted with the wrong sort. The joy had been sucked out, see? But all the while, that little kernel inside of me that receives all this stuff from the realm of ideas - you know the one - kept winking on and off. Eventually I listened to it, wariful though I was, of entering that Grey Place again. 

I did a little light plotting, just enough to nudge things along to somewhere and to avoid excessive meandering through a state of pure Pantsity. I made a pact with myself; I will not, I said, permit myself to know anything more than where the characters are going at some point in the future, just enough to keep things on a sensible (to me) track. If any more Visions of Pants present themselves, I will incorporate them as best I can. But there was, and is, a definite route things will take. I can see it in my mind.

I have a Map and on this map I have drawn lines of Travel.

Is this the beginning of the end?, I hear you wail. No. It is what works for me. I pantsed, I did pants, I can pants. I can also plot. So can anybody, if they've a mind to. There is no one way because there is no one writer, or one story, or one sort of inspiration. No one tool to rule them all, ergo all argument is meaningless; simple cries for identity. The only certain thing is the state of uncertainty we toil in. Me, I prefer to take it easy and get on with the pressing business of chronicling the lives of my imaginary friends, hmm?

God I'm such a pretentious toff, aren't I? I'm off to smash some bus shelters. Oi-Oi!


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## Annoying kid (Oct 24, 2017)

VonBradstein said:


> For the umpteenth trillionth time I’m not seriously suggesting people shouldn’t do whatever they want to do.



We're obviously talking about different routes to the same goal. I'm asking, based on what you said, how do you know one route is really easier than another if you haven't tried it? 



> The people who read ridiculously descriptions of a ridiculously esoteric and elaborate plot with a poorly executed sample of a prologue or whatever and are willing to tell the writer who has clearly only been doing it for a short time and has never completed anything “Don’t listen to him, buddy, he’s a big meanie. You just write what you wanna write, it’s your story, blah blah”
> 
> Yeah it is their story. Sure. Thing is that doesn’t mean it has a snowball in heck’s chance of going anywhere and if the writer wants it to go somewhere I think it’s better to gently suggest they lock it away for the future and work on something else first.



We can agree that what that person is doing as you describe it, isn't working. 
But then you say instead of sticking with it, but changing strategy, that its better to lock it away and do something else. What are you basing this on? That's my question. How do you know it's better than changing strategy if you haven't tried it? 




> Again I go back to the carpentry analogy. No responsible master carpenter would tell a newbie they are wise to start off by planning to construct a Spanish Galleon. Not sure what’s so controversial about that.



The fact that I could say, okay, what goes into constructing a spanish Galleon. We'll break it down into steps, and you'll do what you can do. From there you'll improve and mature through taking those steps, and then you'll go to the next step and improve and the next step and improve so on.



> I know how hard it is to complete a complex book because I know how hard it is to complete a simple one and I have completed several. To be exact, as of right now I have completed four novels of 100,000 plus words (and probably 50ish shorts) all of them exceedingly simple in terms of plot but each - and this is the crucial point - improving on the last in terms of ambition and complexity.



I find it odd that you're implying  that you would not have improved in ambition and complexity if you just stuck with one complex project be that a fantasy trilogy or whatever. To do a complex work it's going to take you as long if not longer than all your other simpler works combined most likely. Over that period of time you will improve if you're working on one project or several simpler ones. If you disagree, how do you know you wouldn't have improved? I know I have to go back and do alot of redrawing and rewritings of the earlier stuff because I improved in complexity and ambition.  It's going to happen regardless.  



> If you do genuinely know another sensible ways of getting a novice writer to a good level that doesn’t involve a version what I describe, please do enlighten and provide a basic template of what that looks like and perhaps even throw in a couple of examples of who has written that way and s’all good.



What do you think I've been talking about until now? :dejection: I started big, and I was telling you how I did it. But you call it off topic. If you want to me list out how I got there then I'll tell you exactly.


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## Annoying kid (Oct 24, 2017)

> No one tool to rule them all, ergo all argument is meaningless; simple cries for identity.



You pantsed your first novel, but was that first novel the kind of complex fantasy/scifi the OP was talking about? 

I don't believe that can be pantsed effectively, much less as a beginner, where the only planning and worldbuilding you do is in your head. With no preliminary work or anything.

I am open to evidence to the contrary.


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## Kyle R (Oct 24, 2017)

VonBradstein said:


> I respect your anecdote about your wife and can appreciate that view, however your post does not mention (and I shall refrain from putting you in the position to furnish an answer) as to how good her novel was. I’m going to hazard a guess it had some pretty critical problems as far as character arcs, plot holes, and general structure. If it went great that’s awesome, but the point is if the average fledgling author with an acorn of talent does not discipline themselves to at least creating serviceable work in the short form I do not believe they have much hope of completing a decent novel.



Her novel had its flaws, for sure (and she'd be the first to admit it)—but I imagine that's true of most writer's first novels, whether they came into it as short-story writers first, or simply jumped in as fledgling novelists right off the bat.

Short fiction can definitely teach a lot about the craft—I'm in complete agreement with you there. Description, dialogue, voice . . . you can hone all of these in short works. But there are also things in long fiction that writing short fiction won't teach you (or didn't teach _me_, anyway)—such as long-term pacing, handling large plots, even the seemingly simple element of chapters, and how to use them best.

If anything, I'd say short fiction hurt me in those aspects—I spent a lot of time trying to break myself of the "quick and easy" pacing and rhythm habits that I'd developed from writing shorter works. There's a bit of leeway in short fiction, in that you're only asking your reader to spend a limited amount of time in your narrative, so missteps are more likely to be forgiven. In a novel, you're asking a considerable amount of reader investment. As a result, you better hope you've got all your ducks in a row, otherwise you may have a very upset reader. :grief:

My short-fiction habits just didn't cut it in this regard—my fast-and-loose narrative style fell apart under its own weight, once the pages started stacking up. Several times (_countless_ times, even!) I had to stop and tell myself, "Okay. This isn't like writing a short story. I can't use the same approach." I had to learn how to think wide and broad, how to see each scene as part of a larger whole.

For me, novel-writing required a whole change in thinking.

So, I agree with your overall point: there's a lot of benefit to be had from working on short pieces. It's great practice for many of the fundamentals. But I'd like to add: but if one's ultimate goal is to write long fiction, don't be surprised if you find yourself tackling another learning curve.


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## bdcharles (Oct 24, 2017)

Annoying kid said:


> You pantsed your first novel, but was that first novel the kind of complex fantasy/scifi the OP was talking about?



Hmm. I'd say it's comparable to a family saga, like _The Pillars of the Earth_ but with massive dragons.



Annoying kid said:


> I don't believe that can be pantsed effectively, much less as a beginner, where the only planning and worldbuilding you do is in your head. With no preliminary work or anything.



Anything is possible, though maybe not for any_body_. All I can say in defence of the approach is that the preliminary worldbuilding and planning seems also to take place in one's head - sometimes years before, in the form of daydreams, other times as sudden bursts of oh-wouldn't-this-be-cool inspiration in the seconds before committing it to type. Perhaps that's the only difference; where the planning happens, and how fast. I dunno. But my early drafts were all pantsed. I didn't even know plotting was a thing till much later. I do agree with you about one thing though. It's not effective, not given a limited timespan anyway. It takes yonks and involves lots of reewrites.



Annoying kid said:


> I am open to evidence to the contrary.



Other than numerous versions of my manuscript (plus notes), some feedback from editors and agents about how my novel is not total cack after all, and my word, I have none. I may actually be wrong about all this. It doesn't really matter. I am no authority on the subject, only my tackling of it - and even that may yet lead nowhere. Writing, eh?


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## Jack of all trades (Oct 24, 2017)

Outlining does not work for me.

I tried it once, and it wasn't even a whole new world. Once I had the outline, I felt done. It was complete. I had zero desire to actually write the thing.

Sure, I could force myself to write it anyway, but then I wouldn't be doing what I love. It would be more work, less play.

And I don't think I'm all that unusual. I've seen I don't know how many references to wips where the member talks about the outlines or world bibles. Yet there is no progress on the wip. None. Zero.

As a beginner I wrote some fan fic. I added to an existing world. New characters, places, etc. But I did not map anything out ahead of time, after the one outline.

I think telling ALL BEGINNERS you MUST do it my way is wrong. It's that simple.

Present your way, let others present theirs, and let each beginner decide what's best for him / her.


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## Terry D (Oct 24, 2017)

Annoying kid said:


> I am open to evidence to the contrary.



George R.R. Martin did his world building for _The Song of Ice and Fire_ series in a three-page outline. Stephen King wrote the massive and intricate, _The Stand_, _It_, _Under the Dome_, and his entire _Dark Tower_ series without an outline, or any sort of pre-planning. But that doesn't prove anything except that it _can_ be done, not that it should be. That's an individual decision.


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## JustRob (Oct 25, 2017)

VonBradstein said:


> No responsible master carpenter would tell a newbie they are wise to start off by planning to construct a Spanish Galleon. Not sure what’s so controversial about that.



There is some truth in that, but if it was the newbie's ambition to construct a Spanish galleon then I might suggest to him that he start by attempting to construct the door to the captain's cabin. There is a matching controversy in computer systems design as to whether "top down" or "bottom up" is the better approach. If one were to design the galleon from the top down then one wouldn't know what the dimensions or style of the ideal door would be until everything else was decided. On the other hand, if galleon construction were a reasonably predictable activity, then one could most likely construct a door that would be of use later even if it needed some modifications. 

In my case my fiction writing "career" consisted of one short story and then an entire novel based on and embodying that story. If you examine the novel you will see that in effect most chapters are short stories in themselves, but they all contribute and converge to create the overall story. Hence I did actually write a series of short stories but somehow ended up with just a novel. I had to take a fast track approach to writing though as I didn't actually want to spend that much time on it at my age. I had another dream already.

If you want to see my own "Spanish galleon" then take a look at my website http://honeypi.org.uk/ where I describe my ambitious and maybe foolhardy project to build a replica of a 1960's Honeywell 200 mainframe computer. Well, we all like to dream and face a challenge occasionally, don't we?

The bottom line is that websites such as this one are criticised by some for failing to be adequately critical of novices' work, thus allowing them to develop bad writing habits. On the other hand such novices may gravitate to this type of site because they find the approach taken to be more friendly and less discouraging. Our intention is to enable our members to realise their potential as well as their shortcomings, but it is a delicate balancing act to perform. I wonder whether anyone ever told Mozart to start with something simpler. That's the problem to overcome. However, I've just checked the WF membership list and there's no record of anyone using the name Mozart there. Personally I've never read any of his novels anyway.


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## VonBradstein (Oct 25, 2017)

You know that’s kind of an interesting allegory for this whole debate...

“You say if it was the newbies ambition to construct a Spanish galleon then I might suggest to him that he start by attempting to construct the door to the captains cabin.”

I think that’s a decent way of looking at it, however I would also want to point out (to the newbie) that building a door to a cabin means nothing if there is no cabin and no ship and no viable means to construct either.

I would rather see them work on building not a door to a cabin but, yes, a ship - a small, model of a Spanish galleon no larger than their capabilities reasonably allow and with less attention paid to size and grandeur and more to the tiny details, sturdy construction, and overall quality. I want this tiny model to be as excellent as any tiny model will allow. I want them to be proud of it. I would want them to think about their tiny model ship as a blueprint for a bigger one someday. I want them to use it to gain understanding of what makes a ship a ship. That said, on no circumstances will I further a belief that the two projects are comparable or that the ability to manufacture a small scale model is equivalent to constructing one that can survive the sea.

I have no problem with dreaming big. Again the issue is not with the athlete but the cheerleader. As I have said before I believe in respect yet savage honesty and candor when it counts. My problem is I see the respect more often than not yet people rarely feel inclined to tell hard truths. More often when they do criticize they do so on something more palatable like the grammar, but rarely the idea. That’s fine but any college student should be able to find basic bad grammar. As fellow writers, critique should extend further without fear. Ideas are not sacred cows either, in my opinion. If your declared concept outweighs your evident ability I think that should become part of the conversation. It rarely is.

In other words, when it comes to ideas, we have too many Mozarts & not enough second grade recorder students. I have literally seen people on here respond to criticism with “well it’s my idea and I’ve been thinking about it for a long time and I think I’m ready I’m going to look into self publishing” and I want to slam my head on my desk because I have just wasted over an hour going through their four thousand words of incomprehensible garbage and trying to timidly show them why they are nowhere near ready.


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## JustRob (Oct 25, 2017)

I hope that when giving critique here members are fair rather than timid. If one feels the need to be bold but possibly unfair then no doubt someone else will compensate for that and no harm will be done. I accept what you say but worry that we are discussing generalisations without any focus, which often proves fruitless.


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## Moonbeast32 (Oct 25, 2017)

What in the world is going on here!? Why is there so much discourse concerning this topic? Are people offended by the OP's counsel?

I at least found it helpful. I say, if even just one person is benefited by wise words, Then the virtue of those words  trump over whatever opposition may be. Even if everyone else in the whole world says they're false, there is the root of truth in a person if, by the end of their life, they have helped at least one person.

That is to say, I feel like some people are trying to prove the OP wrong. But I thought he was helpful, so what more matters?


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## moderan (Oct 25, 2017)

Terry D said:


> George R.R. Martin did his world building for _The Song of Ice and Fire_ series in a three-page outline. Stephen King wrote the massive and intricate, _The Stand_, _It_, _Under the Dome_, and his entire _Dark Tower_ series without an outline, or any sort of pre-planning. But that doesn't prove anything except that it _can_ be done, not that it should be. That's an individual decision.



And in each case, it shows. Inconsistencies abound despite the editing process.


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## JJBuchholz (Oct 28, 2017)

Olly Buckle said:


> Provided they don't put you off writing alltogether I don't see the harm. I have a fair few of them, so do you by the sound of it, and it didn't put us off. I don't know about you, but for me it was all good practice, I reckon it is worth writing almost anything for the practice so long as you can look at it with a critical eye later.



Indeed. I started a novel back in 1998 and spend a couple of years working on it, only to lose the idea and have fifty pages of unfinished work sit in a binder since then. I still pull it out and wonder if I should complete it somehow, but have no regrets. Those fifty pages helped me learn about myself and my style of writing, and were instrumental in honing how I write. Will I ever finish it? I do not know. I have even played with the idea of turning it into a short story. 

I still derive inspiration from that partially-finished work, so I don't consider it a failed project by any means.

-JJB


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## VonBradstein (Oct 28, 2017)

JJBuchholz said:


> Indeed. I started a novel back in 1998 and spend a couple of years working on it, only to lose the idea and have fifty pages of unfinished work sit in a binder since then. I still pull it out and wonder if I should complete it somehow, but have no regrets. Those fifty pages helped me learn about myself and my style of writing, and were instrumental in honing how I write. Will I ever finish it? I do not know. I have even played with the idea of turning it into a short story.
> 
> I still derive inspiration from that partially-finished work, so I don't consider it a failed project by any means.
> 
> -JJB



I think most of us have a story like that. Speaking for myself, it was a longer book over a longer period of time and contemplating it now makes me cringe. 

The notion of regret is a complex one. Rather like a toxic relationship that results in a painful breakup there is always tug between “I learned a lot” and “I wasted my time”. The decision as to which has more weight of value is a personal one.

It is a valid point that the process is formative and I accept that. Writing is an end in itself not a means. I accept that also. 

The main issue for me is about how much time and sanity ought to be poured into a project and when the directive should become, “hey Tony, maybe try this instead?” For me that suggestion from ones peers should come earlier rather than later. Basically as soon as when adequate reason is available to form judgement. And judgement should be all encompassing and destructive when warranted.

Formative or not, there’s no reason why writing cannot function as a source of satisfaction, a source of learning and a source of commercial success in equal measure. Wouldn’t that be great?


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## Olly Buckle (Oct 29, 2017)

> The main issue for me is about how much time and sanity ought to be poured into a project



The real reason I like limericks, only five lines, can't go far wrong


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## Gamer_2k4 (Oct 30, 2017)

For me, it was actually the completion of a substantial novel (200,000 words in the first draft), that caused me to turn toward shorter fiction instead.  I grew an appreciation for brevity and tight plotting, and though I don't regret going the direction I originally did, I certainly have no intention of revisiting it.


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## VonBradstein (Oct 30, 2017)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> For me, it was actually the completion of a substantial novel (200,000 words in the first draft), that caused me to turn toward shorter fiction instead.  I grew an appreciation for brevity and tight plotting, and though I don't regret going the direction I originally did, I certainly have no intention of revisiting it.



My first attempt which I do not count was a seventy thousand word slab of nonsense about a magical boat that appears on a hill on a farm in Montana. My second attempt, which I do count, was a diligently worked 220,000 word horror epic which unwittingly ended up essentially ripping off Stephen King and had far too much gratuitous sex. Two more attempts, both improvement steadily, both still too long at over 110,000 words (both also horror). My nanowrimo counter alone has over half a million words for essentially no payback. Yet we persevere.


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