# Recognising when an idea works.



## Gavrushka (Oct 20, 2013)

I am clueless! 

I've completed three novels and shelved them whilst I learn how to relate them a little better. The way I'd intended to improve my prose was by way of short stories and the help of my peers on this site. (And to date, I feel I have learned much from you all - humble thanks.)

Well, the latest short story I started on reached the point I'd imagined it would end, but has now carried on well beyond it, and I see it could readily make for a novel. - I don't plot, nor plan, but merely write... My issue is as to whether the story would be readable by others.

How do you know? - I remember that a senior member once said good stories were common, but good storytellers were the rarity. Is that really the case? Is the success of a story pre-defined ONLY by the writer's ability, and not by the subject?

If I were to assume I was a good enough storyteller, is there a way to rate whether a story has merit? - I'll never accept that a story is always good, just because the storyteller is of a standard.


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## The Tourist (Oct 20, 2013)

Gavrushka said:


> I I remember that a senior member once said good stories were common, but good storytellers were the rarity. Is that really the case?



I used to think so, and I wish it was still true.  But I truly believe (after meeting and corresponding with successful writers) that a good book is much like assembling a Super Bowl team.  You need specialists at every key position.

Think what that means.  There's you and your vision.  There are numerous betas.  There are fact checkers.  Techno geek consultants.  Librarians.  Cover designers.  Publicists.  Baristas...

You miss one guy at a crucial time and your book might never see the light of day.

And don't forget luck.  My dad said the biggest check written for the biggest order of industrial equipment he ever saw was exchanged over a contract *written on a restaurant place mat*.

Evidently the guy liked the jokes and the scotch, and my dad had a pen.


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## Gavrushka (Oct 20, 2013)

Oh, I'll accept the lucky break angle, but there must still be a correlation between the quality of the prose and the chances of success.

Perhaps it is my naivety, but I do struggle with the scenario where the writer seems to be just a bit player in their success (if that's what you were saying.) - Exceptional prose will be heard regardless, but yes, I imagine a team around you will be quite a boost!

Still doesn't really help me identify whether my current idea has merit, or perhaps it is a question no writer is equipped to answer.


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## The Tourist (Oct 20, 2013)

Well, there's a lot of talent here.  Seek out a guy you trust with a proven track record and send him a few pages.  Once in the circle, perhaps that individual can help you with a re-write, a mentor or a beta.

Sooner or later, someone has a to read it.  You might as well taste the flames.

Edit:  If I were at that point, I'd pick Olly.  Different enough from me, but we speak of similar interests, and he has the exposure to another country coupled with those distinct views.

Somewhat the same, somewhat different.  That's how I'd make the choice.


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## Gavrushka (Oct 20, 2013)

Thanks, The Tourist, that's good advice.


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## bookmasta (Oct 20, 2013)

Gavrushka said:


> I am clueless!
> 
> I've completed three novels and shelved them whilst I learn how to relate them a little better. The way I'd intended to improve my prose was by way of short stories and the help of my peers on this site. (And to date, I feel I have learned much from you all - humble thanks.)
> 
> ...



Never really thought about this before. There's so many factors that going into churning out a good story. Obviously, the writer's skill is the most important when it comes to writing any wip, but beyond that, its the story itself. Everyone has their own process. I think its ludicrous to tell someone how they should plan their story. Some people outline and others just go with it and write the story as it unfolds. I do a mix of both, I know how the story begins and how it will end. The layers I instill as I go on from that point are as I go. I've had success with this method and I've received good feedback from my beta readers. If you really want to gage what others think of your story, then post parts in the prose writer's workshop or you could find a local group to help you. Some people just seem to be gifted when it comes to writing like Stephen King. I believe that anyone can write a good story, it just depends on how much they're willing to put into it.


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## The Tourist (Oct 20, 2013)

bookmasta said:


> if they are willing to work hard enough.



This is the problem I fight constantly.  I love to write, but I also approach the process like a hobby.  There are times of great productivity, but also weeks where I don't even pull up the files.

But I must be honest with you, I'm going to finish this latte' and get a few hours of sleep before the gym and the Packer game.  The coffee is more important than my story.

How do you fight that?


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## bookmasta (Oct 20, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> This is the problem I fight constantly. I love to write, but I also approach the process like a hobby. There are times of great productivity, but also weeks where I don't even pull up the files.
> 
> But I must be honest with you, I'm going to finish this latte' and get a few hours of sleep before the gym and the Packer game. The coffee is more important than my story.
> 
> How do you fight that?


Then I suppose it comes down to your dedication and how much it means to you. Anyone can invest a considerable amount of effort into a hobby for day or two, maybe a week, or perhaps even a month. Its the relentless will to keep pounding away day after day that defines the character of the writer. Then again, it all depends on one's work ethic and willingness to keep going with the craft. Everyone has different schedules. Some may write five days a week. Others may write for a month, then a month off. In the end, the test of time and the writer's the ability to keep on writing will prove to be the biggest factor. And when I say time, I don't mean months, I mean years to possibly decades. Though this has gotten rather off topic from the OP.


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## The Tourist (Oct 20, 2013)

Oh, there are summer months when I don't even write so much as a postcard!  It seems to come in fits or starts.  Today, for example, I wanted to polish more than write, and I felt guilty about it.  It does help to come here, kind of like the world's biggest support group.


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## Gavrushka (Oct 20, 2013)

I don't know if I have been a member long enough to warrant the kind of help I am looking for...

I've just over 7,300 words of Science Fiction that form the basis for what could be a novel. All I would ask if someone skilled in the genre would read the words, and answer whether there is any merit to carrying the idea forwards. - I do not request a mentor, or any involvement beyond an impression of the words to date, so if there is anyone who would consider this, I'd be extremely grateful.


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## bookmasta (Oct 20, 2013)

Gavrushka said:


> I don't know if I have been a member long enough to warrant the kind of help I am looking for...
> 
> I've just over 7,300 words of Science Fiction that form the basis for what could be a novel. All I would ask if someone skilled in the genre would read the words, and answer whether there is any merit to carrying the idea forwards. - I do not request a mentor, or any involvement beyond an impression of the words to date, so if there is anyone who would consider this, I'd be extremely grateful.



I can look over it later when I have some free time.


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## Gavrushka (Oct 20, 2013)

Thank you. 

I'll PM my email address, and when you have time, it'd be great if you get in contact!


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## Bilston Blue (Oct 20, 2013)

Gavrushka said:


> I don't know if I have been a member long enough to warrant the kind of help I am looking for...
> 
> I've just over 7,300 words of Science Fiction that form the basis for what could be a novel. All I would ask if someone skilled in the genre would read the words, and answer whether there is any merit to carrying the idea forwards. - I do not request a mentor, or any involvement beyond an impression of the words to date, so if there is anyone who would consider this, I'd be extremely grateful.



Hi, Gavrushka

I'm not sure how active you are in the workshop, but if you are then try posting your story there. Granted, it may seem a little on the long side, but there are people there who'll read it. Just might take a bit of time due to the length. When I was active in the workshop, I posted something around the same length and received plenty of critique. I think it also depends on the quality of writing and definitely on its presentation. Formatting must be good and punctuation/spelling/grammar, too. Without this the readers won't last the distance.

If the author's command of the basics is good enough, then you're sure to discover if the story itself will hold the reader's attention.



Good luck.


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## Morkonan (Oct 20, 2013)

Gavrushka said:


> ...How do you know? - I remember that a senior member once said good stories were common, but good storytellers were the rarity. Is that really the case? Is the success of a story pre-defined ONLY by the writer's ability, and not by the subject?..



Absolutely.

Everything has already been written. Don't think that the next Blockbuster N.Y. Times Bestseller is going to do so well because its "story" was good. That whole "Plot=Instant Win" idea is dead as last week's toast. (I'm missing a piece of toast from last week, so if you happen to see it, tell it I've already applied to have it declared dead, just so my statement above can be considered "True.")

A Writer should also not give more credibility to the impact of fads and the ebb and flow of the "Cool Kids" when it comes down to what sells. Sure, you can appreciate fads and such and even try to write to take advantage of them. But, by the time you're done, you'll probably miss the boat. See how that works? Even "Good Stories" have their day in the sun, only to end up with rheumatism, glaucoma and shivering in an alley, hoping a big fat cat resurrects them before their time is finally up... What's a "Good Story?" Is our idea of a "Good Story" always going to be a really "Good Story?" Some great works continue to sell, even after a hundred years. Is it because they're "Good Stories" or, instead, is it because they're exceptionally well-written?

Writers are artists. Writers work in a medium of ink and pages, electronic or not. Sculptors work in stone, yet are their works all judged on the basis of whether or not their subject was considered to be a "Good Subject" for them to sculpt? Think hard on that answer and you'll understand the true impact of a Writer's skill on the final quality of their work - It's not the subject, it's how it's done that counts.


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## Gavrushka (Oct 20, 2013)

Bilston Blue said:
			
		

> Hi, Gavrushka
> 
> I'm not sure how active you are in the workshop, but if you are then try posting your story there. Granted, it may seem a little on the long side, but there are people there who'll read it. Just might take a bit of time due to the length. When I was active in the workshop, I posted something around the same length and received plenty of critique. I think it also depends on the quality of writing and definitely on its presentation. Formatting must be good and punctuation/spelling/grammar, too. Without this the readers won't last the distance.
> 
> ...




Thank you 

Yes, it is a little heavy for there, and I think I'd rather post something that is a little better developed, in due course.- I think it would be easy to throw a few pieces at the workshop, but I imagine I'd quickly become unpopular, or worse, ignored! LOL





			
				Morkonan said:
			
		

> Absolutely.
> 
> Everything has already been written. Don't think that the next Blockbuster N.Y. Times Bestseller is going to do so well because its "story" was good. That whole "Plot=Instant Win" idea is dead as last week's toast. (I'm missing a piece of toast from last week, so if you happen to see it, tell it I've already applied to have it declared dead, just so my statement above can be considered "True.")
> 
> ...




Yes, I think I do agree, and it's a little scary to accept... What it essentially means is that the vast majority of us will remain eternally hopeful, but never convert that hope into something more tangible. No matter how hard we try, or how inspirational our tale is, we have no chance. - I do not think we can write beyond our intrinsic ability, no matter how much we strive to better ourselves... BUT I do feel that many writers aren't prepared to meld toxic prose into something far more benign, but would rather move onto the next creative project in the hope that the next one 'will be the one'. - If your reasoning holds true, and I think it does, we should spend a lifetime on one novel, until it is published, if the story holds water.

And now I feel like a total hypocrite for starting a new novel... - BUT it was all by accident rather than design!


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## Morkonan (Oct 20, 2013)

Gavrushka said:


> ...I do not think we can write beyond our intrinsic ability, no matter how much we strive to better ourselves...




I have to disagree. I also don't think that there is any professional writer that I've ever read who has remarked on the subject, in anything but the affirmative - Writing can be taught. You can learn how to write. You can even learn how to write well. There is no such thing as an in-born ability called "Writing." We are not born knowing how to write, we aren't born with the capacity for good story-telling or not, we're not born with an innate sense of literary creativity. Granted, some are born with certain aptitudes that would make them good writers. But, they may end up being Engineers, Farmers, Fishermen or Nurses, instead... 

There are some Writers who have excelled and, despite the fact that writing isn't an innate skill, appear to have been born to the task. But, there are those types of people in any profession you care to name. That doesn't mean that everyone who is in that profession must have some innate ability at it in order to be successful, does it? You don't go a medical school because you were _born_ to be doctor, you go because you _want_ to be a doctor. If you want to be a writer, you can learn how to be a writer.


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## Gavrushka (Oct 20, 2013)

What I was trying to say is that not all writers are prepared to go to the extreme effort of realising all of their ability, but I won't accept that effort = success for more than a percentage of writers. 70% maybe enough of an effort for a gifted writer, but I would argue that some writers, even giving it 100%+, can never succeed. I don't know what the figures could be, but I'd say it is far higher than the numbers that DO make it, as not every writer will operate on the distant edge of their ability*

I think it was Stephen King who said "You can be taught to be a good writer, but never a great writer." - If you are suggesting anyone could be a great writer, I'll argue that could be no more than wishful thinking, whereas I will accept that all but the most challenged could write entertaining prose, perhaps even commercially so for some.

I guess it's a bit like athletes... We all know Usain Bolt, but few of us recognise the names of the professional athletes who never get beyond the heats. - They'll keep on turning up for events, but there personal best is so far below the 'personal worst' of the frontrunners, they'll never feature.


*By that I mean the endless edits, sifting through your own vomit until you drop, and then going back and trying to improve them still further.


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## Morkonan (Oct 20, 2013)

If anyone can be taught to write Blockbusters, then every M.F.A. graduating Writer's class would flood the shelves. They don't.

Sure, only a few rise to the top. But, for those few, it's usually dogged hard work and a lot of lonely hours spent learning the craft. A few blitz on by, lifted up by the masses who've latched onto an idea or fad. Sometimes, rarely, someone bursts on the scene, writes a Breakout Blockbuster and never stops writing awesome #1 Best Sellers. King has a lot of Best Sellers. But, are all his works Best Sellers? Deservedly so? Is he a Great Writer who was born to the craft? If so, why haven't all his books won Pulitzers?

I loved "On Writing." I think it was excellent. I even agree that it might, just might, take a certain sort of person to be able to reach a certain pinnacle level of achievement in Writing. However, there are plenty of race-car drivers who have won lots of races, but that doesn't mean they win every race. There are lots of great Writers, but not all of them were born that way. It's so statistically improbable that it just boggles... Sure, they all have a dedication to the craft. But, that doesn't mean that everything they write must have three-parts learned skill and seven parts "Certain Something" in order to win the race.

Here's something I think that's important... I don't know if it's completely necessary for everyone, but I found it personally necessary - _Revelation_. For me, there was a moment in time when I went from "Thinking about the act of "Doing Writing" to "_I see it so clearly now_." There was a transitory moment when I was in the in-between space of believing I understood things, as far as Writing goes, and then practical comprehension. That moment of comprehension does not come with several large boxes full of finely-honed skill, I'm sad to say. With my own Revelation, I found new insights that served as a solid foundation from which to translate all those principles that people keep yapping about in Writing discussions. Further, I was able to read much more as a Writer, than a Reader, than I had been able to before. Now, whenever I open a book, I'm learning. (These days, I mostly learn the mistakes committed by the writers of the stories I'm reading...)

Just as King wrote in "On Writing", a Writer "never stops learning." Do innate Writers ever stop learning? Why not?

Everyone may have different levels of sacrifice and hard work they'll have to commit to in order to crank out even one novel. But, if you write a novel, it's just as much a novel as one written by King, Twain or Dickens. Will it be as good? Maybe, maybe not. But, you're in control of determining that and there's no reason why your hard work and determination will pay off less for you than it did for anyone else. It's fine to be a small fish in a big pond. Big ponds are more interesting, anyway. So, you may never write a Best Seller. But, you can still be a writer, even if you're not born with some mysterious "Gift."


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## Kevin (Oct 20, 2013)

It's not like athletes. There is no single 'winner' of the race. There's no race. There are many 'runner ups' who are read, and cherished, while criticized by others. It is art. You don't know what may come out you.


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## Morkonan (Oct 20, 2013)

Kevin said:


> It's not like athletes. There is no single 'winner' of the race. There's no race. There are many 'runner ups' who are read, and cherished, while criticized by others. It is art. You don't know what may come out you.



You're not supposed to use less words than I did when providing a cogent answer to a dilemma... I'm sure it's in the Forum Rules, somewhere.

(Not saying my response was particularly cogent, but yours deserves complimentary acknowledgement.  )


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## Gavrushka (Oct 20, 2013)

I think we may be in agreement, but just differ on the percentages! 

No, of course a writer never stops learning (and unlearning and relearning) and I am so low on the learning curve that my vision is not quite broad enough to appreciate just how much there is out there for me to digest.

And as an aside, there seem to be far more awards for books than there are best-sellers, so I've concluded that the reading public is more discerning than the damned critics! 

I don't suppose I will ever see writing clearly, but I am not sure that is more an approach thing than my defective intellect. - I don't know what I am about to write, but the words still form. - Technically, I am far better than I've ever been, but still only fair to middling. Creatively, I've not changed, but I recognise believability is part of creativity as well. As regards what I can only call 'the rest of the guff' - perhaps that's the innate ability thing, I know how to use it a little better than ever I did.

But do I think I will one day write a book that will be published on merit? - Actually, I guess I see that is a possibility now, but a long way off. 

I guess I'm on the road to learning how to be a 'good' writer. It's a damned long road, but I am sure there's a pond at the end of it.


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## Gavrushka (Oct 20, 2013)

Kevin said:


> It's not like athletes. There is no single 'winner' of the race. There's no race. There are many 'runner ups' who are read, and cherished, while criticized by others. It is art. You don't know what may come out you.




Ah that's not what I meant with the analogy, and I can see now it's a poor one! - It may be better to say that I feel some writers may struggle to make the qualifying time. - I fall a long way short, but I'm in training. -Nowadays, my back-fat doesn't cuff my head quite so badly, when I'm out jogging.


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## Apple Ice (Oct 20, 2013)

I think it's the inherent imagination that makes a writer better than another. they can both learn to write as well as each other grammatically, but if one has more of an imagination they can write more and at a better quality. They can recognise who would be best for narrator, have in depth characters and so on. I think just like anything people are born better at something than others


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## Bilston Blue (Oct 20, 2013)

> they can both learn to write as well as each other grammatically



I may need some convincing, here. The statement suggests an equality of learning ability and of comprehension of grammar, though such equality cannot simply be taken for granted without first knowing the two subjects of whom we are discussing. It's too generic. If you meant to write:


> they *could* both learn to write as well as each other grammatically


i.e., they *may both have the ability* to learn to write as well as each other grammatically, then I think you proved my point, for meaning one thing but writing another is something writers, or those who desire to be such, should without fail work on and think of as equally as important as any story. It's an oft-brought up subject here, so I apologize for repeating both myself and others before me, but show me a terrific page turner with shoddy grammar and an excess thirst for adjectives and adverbs and I'll close the thing.

I could stand at an easel on the Brittany coast, where Monet stood way back when he did his stuff, but that there is a wonderful seascape ahead of me doesn't mean I'll paint anything of beauty. I can't paint. A wonderful imagination does not make a great writer, rather, it helps. A lot.


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## ppsage (Oct 20, 2013)

> I may need some convincing, here. The statement suggests an equality of learning ability and of comprehension of grammar, though such equality cannot simply be taken for granted without first knowing the two subjects of whom we are discussing. It's too generic. If you meant to write:
> 
> 
> > _
> ...


 The WF daily irony lesson.


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## Bilston Blue (Oct 21, 2013)

> _I may need some convincing, here. The statement suggests an equality of learning ability and of comprehension of grammar, though such equality cannot simply be taken for granted without first knowing the two subjects of whom we are discussing. It's too generic. If you meant to write:_


_



they *could* both learn to write as well as each other grammatically

Click to expand...





i.e., they *may both have the ability to learn to write as well as each other grammatically,*

Click to expand...

_



> The WF daily irony lesson.



I am two things, PP: 1. Full of self-doubt, and 2. Ever willing to learn. 

I'm unsure if I'm the doing the ironing or the one being ironed. See, we have over here a strong tendency for sarcasm, which I get completely, but have never really done nor understood fully irony, and so wouldn't recognise it if it smacked me about the face with a big fish.

Any irony on my part was unintentional, but if there're flaws in my grammar, please help. I'm also no good at cryptic. Always did the quick clues in the crosswords.

Yours in wonder

P.S. Just seen this: highlight below


they *may both* have...

should be:

they* both may* have...


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## Gavrushka (Oct 21, 2013)

Bilston Blue said:


> ...but if there're flaws in my grammar, please help. I'm also no good at cryptic. Always did the quick clues in the crosswords..



I lost ten minutes of my life pondering it too! LOL 

I think it could be written with far less words, but the grammar seemed fine to me. - Yes, I think I need the lesson spelling out too, so will watch for response.* 


*(I'm a new writer with a thirty year hiatus from formal education, and am still struggling)


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## ppsage (Oct 21, 2013)

ironing... that was a like, after a fashion.


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## Bilston Blue (Oct 21, 2013)

Thanks, PP. The super heat-resistant plastic safety cover is now fastened on to my iron, which has cooled and been stored away with my sarcasm generator.


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## Kevin (Oct 23, 2013)

@morkonan- I wouldn't be too concerned. It is rare that my inner fog clears, or, coalesces into something like legible words. <-- See? Thanks, though. 

@Gav- So...maybe it's like running, training for marathons, and you build your stamina, but also you develop your own gait, and running-song. You sing while you run and no one cares about your finishing time.


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