# Two Literary Agents walk into a bar



## David Gordon Burke (Feb 10, 2014)

It seems to me that the literary world already has everything it needs to quash the INDIE publishing revolution.  They have been the established source for writers since the dawn of time, writers, editorialists, journalists, media people, Television, Radio etc.  They are all networked.

So why hasn't the INDIE revolution been squished like a tiresome cockroach?  God knows they are trying.  They even have the unenlisted help of aspiring writers the world over who believe that INDIE is VANITY and that only published writers are real writers.  

Blog after blog is full of anti-INDIE slurs.  

I just looked at this blog entry ... from some industry insider who claims to have the formula for whether an indie writer is ready to publish.  Here's the thing.  I am going to assume that this writer doesn't have the INDIE writer's best interest at heart.  I did jump to this post from another that stated that out of 500 INDIE books looked at only 5 were any damn good.  I'm guessing that MR. ELITE writer has the backing and bucks to fully conform to the 'Elements of Style' which in my opinion is an outdated tome of rules.  Good to know about.  More fun to ignore.  (Just ask Mr. McCarthy)  If a book is thrown on the 'reject' heap because receive is spelt incorrectly (recieve) then too bad.  How about British spelling of words turning off an American Publisher?  What about poetic license?  

7 Signs you are ready to publish.

1.  Your story is or has a high concept.  Nonsense.  Hogwash.  Total conformist thinking.  Was the Life of Pi high concept?  The Kite Runner?  Not everyone wants to write Dan Brown.  
2.  Have you practiced for 10,000 hours? - an arbitrary number.  Have you practiced what?  Who the hell times themselves?  
3.  Have you subjected your work to serious criticism?  Ok... I probably agree that SOMEBODY has to read it before you publish but then again...if you are selling your book on Amazon for 99 cents...well there's your criticism right there.  Sell a bundle to a bunch of strangers and you can consider it pretty good.  
4.  Are you well read in your genre?  Obviously this criteria is totally bogus.  Today the vast majority of the best sellers are all about tearing down the standards of every genre.  How important was reading Dracula to Stephanie Meyer when she wrote Twilight?  I'm guessing NOT AT ALL!
5.  Do you have a platform?  Meaning do you have a media platform of twitter, facebook, blog, .com etc. to promote your book.  Ok, now this guy is making no sense at all.  On one blog his schpeel is how hard it was to find quality work in the INDIE publishing world.  Now he's helping those same writers he considers 'probably bad' to promote themselves.  
6.  Are you willing to invest in your book?  My business plan is none of his damn business and is irrelevant to the quality of the writing.
7.  Are you ready?  Again...it's INDIE...if it sells it was ready to be sold.  

It seems to me that all these anti-INDIE blogs and articles are just big publising's way of trying to slow the spread of INDIE works.  I'm not buying it.  

OK.  Maybe 99% of the INDIE publications aren't as good.  So what do you do in a capitalist society when your product isn't number 1?  Take it off the market?  Stop selling?  Close the company?  

Should Wendy's close their doors just because their burgers aren't as tasty as McDonalds, Burger King and Carl's Jr?  

Literary Agents and their minions.  Soon to replace Lawyers as the bottom feeders of Society.

David Gordon Burke


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## Bloggsworth (Feb 10, 2014)

Because the establishment moves too slowly.


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## Gavrushka (Feb 10, 2014)

The literary world has neither the need nor the ability to quash the Indie revolution... What is destroying it for many readers is the unregulated garbage that conceals those who care enough to produce work that is good enough for public consumption (subjective, I know). I feel the free for all known as self publication _needs_ some form of structure / standards or all a decent self-published writer can do is try and out-network the others begging dollars from us.

I've read one really good self-published book and dismissed forty or fifty dreadful ones. - When it comes to traditionally published books, those statistics are more or less reversed.

I think the solution to the problem lies within the self-publication industry, and blaming literary agents and traditional publishing businesses will not in any way alter the basic fact: Too many crap self-published authors throw dreadful puke onto a disillusioned public.

*edit* I CANNOT believe that there is no regulated outlet for Self published authors of merit... - It is time something was done to address this issue... IF some kind of literary council for self published authors was created and there work was reviewed and, if found to be of a standard, given a 'Mark of Approval' the lot of decent authors could be improved.  - Yes, there would have to be a cost involved, but we are talking of authors who wish to make a living from self publication, or at least supplement their income.


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## The Tourist (Feb 10, 2014)

David Gordon Burke said:


> How about British spelling of words turning off an American Publisher?  What about poetic license?



While I understand the "one too many u-additions," and it slows up the smooth read, it is part of a larger problem in writing, especially in dialog.  That being jargon and regional accents.

When my Aunt Clara wrote me a letter it was in English--perhaps a few words in the native tongue when she didn't know the correct one.  But I heard her voice in my head.  She didn't have to deliberately misspell the words so it sounded like her penchant of old world pronunciation.

And I can even understand the need for YA slang.  But if you want me to rave about your creation and perhaps buy your novels, it would really neat if I understood what you were saying.

_I mean, I get up from an agave malaise and trudge off for tri's and lat's.  Maybe it's on the 48, maybe the Dyna, but then the primary had a douche.  I'll return, do the togishi thing and call a blood.  I'm thinking of doing a pan, but I don't think I have a dry puller.  So it's back to the work and hope the Scandi is perfect.  Of course, if I get anymore mail from quif my wife's is going to freak._

But clearly, you understand that, don't you?


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## Olly Buckle (Feb 10, 2014)

That OP made me smile, YES!
My indie published book is on Amazon and has collected a few reviews, they help; unfortunately then I changed the cover slightly and they became hidden as belonging to an earlier edition. Gavrushka's suggestion has considerable merit. Maybe I will go and start a thread of 'Reviews of indie published books'. I know there would be reviews by the authors, but they should be easy to spot.


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## dale (Feb 10, 2014)

the self-publishing world is its own worst enemy. it's chaos. although there truly are a few decent writers out there in it, for the most
part, it's like a bunch of fat people trying to be ballerinas.


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## The Tourist (Feb 10, 2014)

dale said:


> the self-publishing world is its own worst enemy. it's chaos.



Due to this gray hair, I think this is one attribute you cannot blame on the cyber world.  Scan the racks at a book store, and lament the trees wasted for +80% of the drivel you'll find.

Cream rises to the top in any field.  The Wild West had perhaps two dozen real gunfighters.  The FBI has a "ten most" list.  Only one make of automobile can be the fastest.  Less than one percent of all books are worth buying.

I've mentioned this before.  One movie studio has a guy who takes skid pallets of unread, unsolicited scripts to the dumpster with a forklift.  The reason is that there is so little that ever pans out, and the debris takes up so much space, they truck it out as fast as it comes in.


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## dale (Feb 10, 2014)

The Tourist said:


> Due to this gray hair, I think this is one attribute you cannot blame on the cyber world.  Scan the racks at a book store, and lament the trees wasted for +80% of the drivel you'll find.
> 
> Cream rises to the top in any field.  The Wild West had perhaps two dozen real gunfighters.  The FBI has a "ten most" list.  Only one make of automobile can be the fastest.  Less than one percent of all books are worth buying.
> 
> I've mentioned this before.  One movie studio has a guy who takes skid pallets of unread, unsolicited scripts to the dumpster with a forklift.  The reason is that there is so little that ever pans out, and the debris takes up so much space, they truck it out as fast as it comes in.



in a way though, i would blame the cyber world and even television. but that's more a matter of cultural degradation. when the masses become
accustomed to the jerry springer show as a media art form, then the art world itself will eventually become reduced to the lowest common denominator.
 and the cyber world has made things so easy for a person, one can be inadequate at pretty much anything and still achieve a vain level of attention.


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## The Tourist (Feb 10, 2014)

dale said:


> one can be inadequate at pretty much anything and still achieve a vain level of attention.



Yeah, but the "cyber version of drek" has it's advantages.  You have to kill a decades old tree for paper to print those messes.

Heck, a few well trained Chinese kids can assemble a server in a matter of minutes.  I mean, win/win.

All I have to do is hit "delete."


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## dale (Feb 10, 2014)

but as far as literary agents go, their incentive is the 15% commission they are going to make off your work. and any agent worth their
salt is going to sell your book to a publisher that offers at least an advance. so they get paid, even if your book doesn't become a best seller.
in the self-publishing world, not only is there no advance, but the odds are the book is not gonna make too much money. so it comes down to
basic math....15% of 0 is still 0. there's simply no incentive for them to reach out to the self-publishing world.


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## spartan928 (Feb 10, 2014)

What incentive does Amazon have to limit their offerings of self-published books? Bandwidth? Who gives a rip. They are in the money-making business and the more the merrier. Its the way things are going to be probably forever. So it goes, and by the way, consumers are well aware of the geyser of dreck pouring out of Amazon like a broken sewer line. It's why readers (including myself) are becoming more discriminating every year. It's why you see sales in the millions of a viral title and next to nothing on practically everything else.

Time is a precious commodity for everyone and the whole world is clamoring for a piece of yours. Which is partly why people are reading less as a whole, and are very careful what they read when they decide to invest 10-20 hours in a book, especially from an author who has no proven chops. Thats not cynicism, it's just a basic reality all writers need to be conscious of and find peace with. I don't see much to be gained lamenting the amount of self-published sludge arriving by the thousands onto the scene every week. Spend time figuring out how to rise above it because writers are readers too. You do the same thing when deciding on something to read; browse reputable reviews (what's reputable though right?), read authors you enjoy, and listen to your friends and co-workers about what's good out there.


Incidentally, here's some math to consider. Over 1200 self-published books hit the market daily. If every one of those books sells an average of at least one copy to an aunt, uncle, brother and english teacher, Amazon still reaps their 30% every day to the tune of probably $5,000-10,000. Not bad is it.


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## David Gordon Burke (Feb 11, 2014)

The Tourist said:


> Scan the racks at a book store, and lament the trees wasted for +80% of the drivel you'll find.



I'd likely put that number at +90% or more but you are definitely on to something there. How about this...... jump over to this link 
http://www.writingforums.com/threads/144923-Two-Literary-Agents-walk-into-a-bar

So which of the top, top echelon writers do you consider to write really great books? 
After Shakespeare and Agatha Christie I have to drop down nine spots to J.K. Rowling to find anything that isn't absolute manure (and while entertaining and certainly brilliant beside the majority of YA, Rowling's books are still not my idea of great prose) Those people in those nine skipped spots represent around 3.5 billion in sales. 
Let's keep going. Koontz, King, L'Amour, Ludlum, Grey, Wallace, Tolkien, Spillane, Hailey, Coehlo, Baldacci, Rice, Smith, Caldwell, Fleming, Heese, Follett, Burroughs, Michener, Clancy. All my idea of acceptable if not stellar writing. Commercial prose. Acceptable...rarely brilliant but yes, they can spell and form a sentence. 

So 23 out of a possible 84 writers. Obviously all of these writers are doing something correctly because they are selling millions. But would you want to read it? I mean really, who reads Clive Cussler? Who reads Mary Higgins Clark? Who reads all the others? In all fairness some of the other unmentioned authors out of the 84 may have a few gems that I've yet to discoverer but I'm in no hurry to go looking for them. 

Now, look at this list of INDIE writers and their monthly sales.
Once I've read at least one title from each of them I will be in a position to state whether the INDIE stuff is better / worse or the same as the traditional publishing world.
Blake Crouch – 2500+
Nathan Lowell – 2500+
Beth Orsoff – 2500+
Sandra Edwards – 2500+
Vianka Van Bokkem - 2500+
Maria Hooley – 2500+
C.S. Marks – 2500+
Lee Goldberg – 2500+
Lexi Revellian – 4000+
Zoe Winters – 4000+
Aaron Patterson – 4000+
Bella Andre – 5000+
Imogen Rose – 5000+
Ellen Fisher – 5000+
Tina Folsom – 5000+
Terri Reid – 5000+
David Dalglish – 5000+
Scott Nicholson – 10,000+
J.A. Konrath 10,000+
Victorine Lieske – 10,000+
L.J. Sellers – 10,000+
Michael R. Sullivan – 10,000+
H.P. Mallory – 20,000+
Selena Kitt – 20,000+
Stephen Leather – 40,000+
Amanda Hocking – 100,000+

I do however believe and agree with the previous posts except that none of them are realizing that they are taking a very unrealistic path to buying INDIE which is they just grab something and hope it's great. Blindfold someone and send them into a big box books store and tell them to grab a book. I'll bet they get something that Hoovers like a black hole. 

On a whole other note - it's a hell of a lot easier for some established writer to pass of drek as an acceptable offering. It's harder for an INDIE to sell so you would expect them to have put a lot of effort into the project. 

And finally, how much is a paperback novel in a bookstore? How much is the average INDIE ebook? (My Novel is priced at $1.79) The high end is $3.00 (for the real daft INDIE that wants that 70% royalty...right there a good clue as to which books to stay away from...) 
Moral: how badly are you getting burned on a bad 99cent indie compared to a bad standard publication? 

David Gordon Burke


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## The Tourist (Feb 11, 2014)

David, the reason I chose 80% was that the number itself taps into the premise of most human experiences.  For example, you often hear of "the 80/20 rule."  That is, _"20% of your clients are 80% of your problems."_

So it is in writing.  Even forum participation.

Obviously, people make money writing books.  But I find the pursuit much like the milieu of professional actors.  I read a statistic that opines at any given moment 95% of all actors are unemployed.

I don't read every thread here, 80% of them do not interest me in the slightest.  Fully 80% of the stories--admittedly the work of a member's lifetime--bore me silly.  In fact, I usually walk around baffled by the foibles of 80% of the world's population.

At Thanksgiving one year my dad made the mistake of mentioning politics at Aunt Clara's table.  She short-circuited that by stating, "Someone is always getting greased."  In effect, we have the mess that exists because at day's end it's a bizarre but successful enterprise.

Our local B&N is a one of those larger anchor stores at the mall.  It is so big that it has a dozen surveillance cameras just to cover retail theft--two in the coffee bar alone.  Yet, one day I had a moment of clarity.  I surmised that in a very short time, hundreds of metric tons of the very books I could see from my vantage point would be dumped into a bargain bin, returned as unsold inventory or just destroyed as unsalable. 

But to reiterate and paraphrase my Aunt Clara's remark, _"Someone is making a profit by this."_

The issue for us is, do we wish to play the game.  And if we do, do we join the nonsense with eyes wide open.


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## Kevin (Feb 11, 2014)

> Who reads Mary Higgins Clark?


 Net worth: $110 million USD (2012) enwikipedia.  Lol...


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## Gavrushka (Feb 11, 2014)

LOL! I'd be happy to stand a book sale behind her, and a dollar short!


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## David Gordon Burke (Feb 11, 2014)

Kevin said:


> Net worth: $110 million USD (2012) enwikipedia. Lol...



Who ....?  not how not how many.

*David Gordon Burke*


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## Kevin (Feb 11, 2014)

> Who ....?


No idea but it said it was a best seller. Cripes....who indeed.


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## Ilasir Maroa (Feb 16, 2014)

Instead of bashing hard-working writers, and bitching about the establishment keeping you down, maybe spend that time writing books you can sell...?


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## qwertyman (Feb 17, 2014)

Gavrushka said:


> ...I CANNOT believe that there is no regulated outlet for Self published authors of merit... - It is time something was done to address this issue... IF some kind of literary council for self published authors was created and there work was reviewed and, if found to be of a standard, given a 'Mark of Approval' the lot of decent authors could be improved.  - Yes, there would have to be a cost involved, but we are talking of authors who wish to make a living from self publication, or at least supplement their income.



This topic has been usefully discussed here:-

http://www.writingforums.com/thread...the-vanguard-of-quality-self-published-novels


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## Schrody (Feb 19, 2014)

Oh, come on, sure there are bad self-published books, but everybody's acting like there's no bad traditional published books. Seriously? One example: Stonehenge legacy. I said enough. Read it, and surely you'll agree with me.


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## dale (Feb 21, 2014)

Ilasir Maroa said:


> Instead of bashing hard-working writers, and bitching about the establishment keeping you down, maybe spend that time writing books you can sell...?



this is basically the way i see it, too. i think a lot of writers in the self-publishing world spend a lot of time "putting lipstick on a pig".
and like i've said many times here....i know there are some decent self-published authors out there. but what sells is what sells. and to
blame "the industry" because your self-published book doesn't sell is really just making excuses for the writer looking for something other
than his/herself to blame for not being able to connect with a mass quantity of readers.


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