# Your Target Audience



## Kyle R (Jan 26, 2012)

For those seeking publication:

If you find yourself writing a love story (generally more popular among female readers), do you also inject a secondary aspect to the plot, in which, for example, violent assassins are trying to keep the lovers apart (to interest more male readers)?

If you're writing a war epic where the hero fights his way through hordes of ruthless enemies, would you add a romantic element in the form of a captured loved-one?

Do you add in a heroic religious character for the devout to identify with?

Do you add fights with dinosaurs and monsters, magic and superpowers to attract the younger readers?

What's your opinion on augmenting your storylines to appeal to a broader reader demographic?


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## JosephB (Jan 26, 2012)

I think you'd end up with crap. Maybe it exists -- but  I can't really recall reading anything, and I'm not aware of anything written as such an obvious attempt to appeal to a variety of readers. Seems like you'd lose people along the way -- as they have to plow through the parts that don't interest them.


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## Kyle R (Jan 26, 2012)

JosephB said:


> I think you'd end up with crap. Maybe it exists -- but  I can't really recall reading anything, nor do am I aware of anything written as such an obvious attempt to appeal to a variety of readers. Seems like you'd lose people along the way -- as they have to plow through the parts that don't interest them.



Hmm.. Interesting point.

I'm thinking, for examples:

*Twilight *- Romance + Supernatural + Action + Young Adults

*The Hunger Games* - Dystopia + Action + Young Adults + Romance

etc.. etc..


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## Sunny (Jan 26, 2012)

What? It's not an interesting point!!!! 

And by the way, they're sooo not crap!!! The types of books you mentioned are HUGE sellers! Walk into any book store... they're all over the shelves!!!! 

They're popular for a reason. A lot of readers enjoy them... not all apparently.. but A LOT! 

Why do you think they're all being made into movies and TV shows? Because they're awesome! That's why!


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## JosephB (Jan 26, 2012)

Except I didn’t say those books were crap!!!

 I said I thought an obvious attempt to appeal to multiple audiences could be crap!!! Kyle is the one who provided the examples!!!

It just doesn’t seem like you could write an adult novel and throw in dinosaurs to somehow appeal young readers. A couple of the examples he gave seemed particularly forced. I’m not saying it’s impossible to appeal to a wide audience. I suspect it happens as a result of telling a good story, rather than some calculated attempt to do it.


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## squidtender (Jan 26, 2012)

I've tried to keep it simple. I write what is fun for me and I write what I think my wife will like. Trying to guess the likes/dislikes of society is next to impossible and probably wouldn't help the writing in the long run. If you've got a story stuck in your head and it's something you want to write, then do it. If you enjoy it, then there are other people who will too.


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## Sunny (Jan 26, 2012)

But that's what those authors did. Those and many more. They wanted to write books that would appeal to young girls, boys, men and women, and they've been very successful in doing so. 

I don't think it matters as much on the content of the book and what happens, but how well it's written. Any author could have tried to write The Hunger Games and failed miserably, but Suzanne Colins wrote it in such a way, that it was a huge hit. I've loaned that series of books to many people, and I've yet to have anyone say they didn't like it. A few wives even had their husbands read them, and they loved them. It's how you write the plot, the content in your book that captures your readers attention. 

I think you can put whatever you want into your story, as long as you know how to write it, you can succeed with it.


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## Potty (Jan 26, 2012)

It's not a book but "Land of the lost" with Will Ferrell has everything in it. Dinosaurs, time travel, romance, aliens, religion, violence etc.


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## dale (Jan 26, 2012)

most well rounded tales come naturally with different aspects or themes, such as romance and conflict.
to force something into a story just to appeal to a certain demographic would seem to take away from the
heart of the story itself. it would take something flowing strongly and make it lame, imo.


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## JosephB (Jan 26, 2012)

Sunny said:


> I don't think it matters as much on the content of the book and what happens, but how well it's written.



That's pretty much what I was saying. That it's a good story is what it gives it wide appeal -- rather than the author intentionally adding ingredients that specifically appeal to certain segments.


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## Sunny (Jan 26, 2012)

If said author was good at writing with the added ingredients... appealing to the certain segments, it can work. I don't see anything wrong with it, as long as you can write it well.


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## JosephB (Jan 26, 2012)

“As long as you can write it well” could be the answer to virtually every discussion concerning what works and what doesn’t. There’s no point in talking about it in those terms. What might be interesting is discussing WHY it might not work if you add ingredients in an attempt to appeal to everyone. Could be, but I'm skeptical that many successful authors added things a la carte in just the calculated way Kyle is suggesting in an effort to get published.

Once you get past the obvious – that it just needs be well written -- then you might be able to get a topic out if it.


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## Sunny (Jan 26, 2012)

Why _wouldn't_ it work if you wanted to write something that appealed to everyone? I don't see how that has anything to do with whether a story is crap or if it hits the NYTBSL! 

A story is a story, no matter what it has in it. No matter what the genre is or who you're aiming it at, (whether you're aiming it at 10 different demographics at once). I've read plenty of stories that were written for YA's, and had adult themes with plots that would please male or female readers alike. I think if you've got a modern fairytale romance written for teen girls, and you want to add in goblins for boys, a shopaholic, sexcrazed mom for the women, and a Chopshop/fightclub for men.. who cares. You've made the story to fit to every readers needs. 

Can't you just do whatever you want when writing a story? I think you can do anything you want to do. Just make it so people want to read it!


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## Capulet (Jan 26, 2012)

Sunny said:


> What? It's not an interesting point!!!!
> 
> And by the way, they're sooo not crap!!! The types of books you mentioned are HUGE sellers! Walk into any book store... they're all over the shelves!!!!


I will go out on a limb here and say, even though Twilight probably outnumbers it on the shelves 10-1, The Handmaiden's Tale is a better read. 



Sunny said:


> They're popular for a reason. A lot of readers enjoy them... not all apparently.. but A LOT!
> 
> Why do you think they're all being made into movies and TV shows? Because they're awesome! That's why!


They have a grade six reading level, so are easily converted into scripts. I would love to go back in time and cast Seth Rogan as Edward and see how well it does.

Teenage girls and their pedo older sisters drooling over sexy vampires and werewolves, accompanied by the teenage boys and men trying to convert that sexual energy into sheet-soiling fun times are what makes that franchise popular.


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## Sunny (Jan 26, 2012)

Capulet said:


> I will go out on a limb here and say, even though Twilight probably outnumbers it on the shelves 10-1, The Handmaiden's Tale is a better read.


Can't say. I'd never read that.. The Handmaiden's Tale sounds terrible to me! 



Capulet said:


> They have a grade six reading level, so are easily converted into scripts. I would love to go back in time and cast Seth Rogan as Edward and see how well it does.


A grade six reading level? Maybe that's why so many men/boys have problems reading them!! Ha ha.. Believe me, Robert Pattinson was not my first pick for the movie, but I love him in it anyway. And the book is so different than the movie. And, I don't think we were talking about movies? Right? 



Capulet said:


> Teenage girls and their pedo older sisters drooling over sexy vampires and werewolves, accompanied by the teenage boys and men trying to convert that sexual energy into sheet-soiling fun times are what makes that franchise popular.


Meh.. maybe. I don't know what makes it popular for everyone else. I just know what I love about them.


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## Capulet (Jan 26, 2012)

Sunny said:


> Can't say. I'd never read that.. The Handmaiden's Tale sounds terrible to me!


[/quote]_The Handmaid's Tale_ won the 1985 Governor General's Award and the first Arthur C. Clarke Award in 1987, and it was nominated for the 1986 Nebula Award, the 1986 Booker Prize, and the 1987 Prometheus Award. It has been adapted for the cinema, radio, opera, and stage.[/quote]



Sunny said:


> And the book is so different than the movie. And, I don't think we were talking about movies? Right?


Very true. On that note though, I'd never heard of the books prior to the movies coming out. I tend to stay away from YA that was written after children went dumb (about... 1990?)
I think the last series of YA books I actually liked was the Prydain series. Although I'm tempted to read the Golden Compass series; the premise intrigues me.


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## Sunny (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm not much of a fan of the artsy fartsy books. Lol. Sorry, just my prefrence. 

And I read Twilight before the movies came out. Just barely though. 

You're missing out on some really good YA authors. Not all are like Twilight. There are a ton of good distopian novels. Divergent by Veronica Roth is amazing. It was her first book, too. She became obsessed with writing it while in college, and now look where it's gotten her. She's a huge author now, and for a good reason; her book is phenomenal ... and hey, she's a YA author, go figure. 

Don't count them all out, just because you think Twilight's a stinker.


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## Like a Fox (Jan 26, 2012)

Sunny said:


> But that's what those authors did. Those and many more. They wanted to write books that would appeal to young girls, boys, men and women, and they've been very successful in doing so.



I don't really think that's what Stephenie Meyer did. I think she wrote a sappy romance and made it slightly less sappy by adding some supernatural elements. I think it created new interests for romance fans, but I certainly don't think a vamp fan would have been satisfied with the read. And I really disagree that it got a male readership on board. Those books are excessively girly. I know a few gay boys who loved them for the same reason all the girls did. Edward. (Or Jacob).

In my professional writing course we met with a number of publishers and agents. They said cross genres are one of the hardest things to market, and almost impossible to even get published because no agents of publishers want to take them on. If you're thinking about the market you're going to hit then you need to understand how that all works. It's a pretty spectacular book that rises above all that. But I've never seen it. Twilight is a young adult romance. It's not a vampire epic. It's added those elements to great effect, but it's not a split genre. 

I think lots of elements can be added into a great story. Of course you can have a romance that features dinosaurs. A war movie set in space. An epic set in a bath tub. But you need to figure out which genre you fit into and how you're going to be marketed. If you straddle the line, you'll probably halve your readership instead of double, if you manage to get it published at all. (Unless you're a literary writer. In which case, it's not about sales, right? It's the awards. Haha).


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## j.w.olson (Jan 26, 2012)

Approaching this from a different viewpoint, I've always found it interesting to note that well-crafted books such as those written by Margaret Atwood are still around and popular after 25 years, whereas the more consumable fiction by Stephanie Meyer, RL Stine, Rick Riordan, and Dan Brown achieves a limited popularity, gets made into low-quality hit movies, and then slowly fades from the spotlight into obscurity. Seriously, did anyone else notice just how horrible the Percy Jackson movie was? Like, glaring plot holes, bad acting, and hardly a reference to the actual plot of the book?  It's like they're trying to surf a wave of public interest by throwing money at it rather than skill. Seems to work well enough in the short term, but really fails to live up the ideal of literature/cinema.

I guess that's my take on attempting to engineer a best-seller out of desire for success rather than soul.


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## Sunny (Jan 27, 2012)

Like a Fox said:


> I don't really think that's what Stephenie Meyer did. I think she wrote a sappy romance and made it slightly less sappy by adding some supernatural elements. I think it created new interests for romance fans, but I certainly don't think a vamp fan would have been satisfied with the read. And I really disagree that it got a male readership on board. Those books are excessively girly. I know a few gay boys who loved them for the same reason all the girls did. Edward. (Or Jacob)


My sister was a huge vamp fan before Twilight was even thought of. Anne Rice has always been her favourite, but she loved Twilight even more. Heck she's the one who talked me into reading them. And the same as my mother. She said just because she wasn't a teenage girl anymore, doesn't mean she doesn't remember what it was like to be one. She said it was great how it took her back to having those feelings. My good friend who is in her 40's, loves Twilight more than most teenage girls. So it's not fair to say that only young girls like them. 

When the movie was released, we had 8 different guys in our group that went, that wanted to see it, and no they weren't dragged by their girlfriends, because they didn't have any. And, they certainly were not gay. Even my friends grandfather went to see it, because he loved the books. What about Nora Roberts? Her books are very girly, yet no one gives her a hard time. Or J.R. Ward, who's an amazing adult vampire writer. Her books are huge sellers and yet, just because they're written for adults, it's acceptable. They are loaded with girly romance and love/sex scenes. So I don't understand why all of those other writers don't get a bad wrap, when Stephanie Meyer does.


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## Like a Fox (Jan 27, 2012)

I'm sure your sister can like vampires and young adult romance both. If she happened to hate young adult romance but loved vampires I don't think she'd be too impressed with Twilight. However if she loved young adult romance and didn't care for vampires, I'm pretty sure Twilight would still have a lot of appeal. 

I actually didn't say anything negative about the series. _Sappy_ might be taken negatively, but I read it. I read it all quite a few times. Midnight Sun was my favourite and it's shame she never finished it. But its target audience _is_ certainly female. And I think people who prefer YA. I know older women who read it too. I'm in my mid twenties and a whole bunch of my friends read it. But like your mum, it reminded me of being young. I wasn't reading something I would call mature.

Arguing about Twilight is boring anyway. People always hate on something that made it big. I defend it all the time. 
My point was that it's not a cross genre story. It just features vampires.


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## Sunny (Jan 27, 2012)

Midnight Sun was amazing. I'm still hoping she'll finish it, but she seems to have fallen off the planet. 

What about her adult book? The Host. I wonder why people aren't hating it all the time?


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## Like a Fox (Jan 27, 2012)

*Off Topic - 
*I guess because it hasn't received the hype. I liked The Host. The protagonist was way less annoying than Bella.


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## Sunny (Jan 27, 2012)

Like a Fox said:


> *Off Topic -
> *I guess because it hasn't received the hype. I liked The Host. The protagonist was way less annoying than Bella.


I guess some people found her annoying. Maybe I was just paying too much attention to the hot boys! *shrugs*

The Host was great. She was supposed to have two that followed it. The Soul and The Seeker, but like I said. She seems to have disappeared. She's got her millions and millions I suppose. 

Okay... I'm done with the off topic stuff!


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## Potty (Jan 27, 2012)

> Although I'm tempted to read the Golden Compass series; the premise intrigues me.



Its a good read! As stated above however, the film was a case of money over skill being thrown at the film.


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## Capulet (Jan 27, 2012)

Sunny said:


> I'm not much of a fan of the artsy fartsy books. Lol. Sorry, just my prefrence.


It's a lit-scifi giant, written in a female voice but appealing cross-gender. You should check it out; from the posts I've seen you make I think it might interest you.



Sunny said:


> You're missing out on some really good YA authors. Not all are like Twilight. There are a ton of good distopian novels. Divergent by Veronica Roth is amazing. It was her first book, too. She became obsessed with writing it while in college, and now look where it's gotten her. She's a huge author now, and for a good reason; her book is phenomenal ... and hey, she's a YA author, go figure.



Hmmm... Looking up the book description on Amazon, it sounds like a teenage girl going through a time of change, unsure of her place in her family, and some cute-but-difficult boy is making her love life complicated. _How _did her publisher ever let her step sooo far away from the standard formula? Such radical divergence cannot be tolerated! She's going to single-handedly redesign the entire genre!


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## Sunny (Jan 27, 2012)

Capulet said:


> It's a lit-scifi giant, written in a female voice but appealing cross-gender. You should check it out; from the posts I've seen you make I think it might interest you.


Hey you know what? It doesn't sound bad at all. It's got some great reviews. Out of the 250 reviews on amazon, there are only 35 bad ones or so. That's promising. 



Capulet said:


> Hmmm... Looking up the book description on Amazon, it sounds like a teenage girl going through a time of change, unsure of her place in her family, and some cute-but-difficult boy is making her love life complicated. _How _did her publisher ever let her step sooo far away from the standard formula? Such radical divergence cannot be tolerated! She's going to single-handedly redesign the entire genre!


It's not that different when it comes to dystopian novels, I get that, but it's a great read. It's like The Hunger Games, in that it's on the darker side of YA, and definitely does interest male readers. A lot of it is very violent, and has the stuff boys like, and it has a good love story as well. It makes us all happy. I would never reccomend Matched by Allie Condie to a guy, or Delirium by Lauren Oliver to a guy, even though they were amazing. Just for the reason that they'd bitch and moan because of the mushy romance.


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## Kyle R (Jan 27, 2012)

Like a Fox said:


> I don't really think that's what Stephenie Meyer did. I think she wrote a sappy romance and made it slightly less sappy by adding some supernatural elements. I think it created new interests for romance fans, but I certainly don't think a vamp fan would have been satisfied with the read. And I really disagree that it got a male readership on board.



Though I agree with you, I also have to point out that I saw the movie "New Moon" because it had Werewolves in the preview. I said, "A werewolf movie? I'm there." Nevermind that I didn't know the story, nor did I realize it was a sequel. *slaps forehead*

I should have known by how giddy my female friend was on the way to seeing it. I need to pay better attention to these things. Giddy girl = good sign of a chick flick. Usually girls aren't excited to see werewolves ripping people apart, which is what I was expecting. Instead I got broadsided by a supernatural love triangle. :grief:


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## Jon M (Jan 27, 2012)

KyleColorado said:


> What's your opinion on augmenting your storylines to appeal to a broader reader demographic?


People are wild creatures and I have trouble predicting what my mother will sometimes do, so I could not even guess what others may or may not find appealing in my stories. Besides, this approach only seems to work based on stereotypes anyway -- on some guess that _this!_ is what _they'll_ enjoy.


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## Capulet (Jan 27, 2012)

Sunny said:


> Hey you know what? It doesn't sound bad at all. It's got some great reviews. Out of the 250 reviews on amazon, there are only 35 bad ones or so. That's promising.
> 
> It's not that different when it comes to dystopian novels, I get that, but it's a great read. It's like The Hunger Games, in that it's on the darker side of YA, and definitely does interest male readers. A lot of it is very violent, and has the stuff boys like, and it has a good love story as well. It makes us all happy. I would never reccomend Matched by Allie Condie to a guy, or Delirium by Lauren Oliver to a guy, even though they were amazing. Just for the reason that they'd bitch and moan because of the mushy romance.



Well, I'll try wandering down to the Chapters this weekend and give the first couple chapters of Divergent a try. It's been a while since I've given any YA a chance, and if you think it's good I'll check it out. I also have like the entire Last Apprentice series sitting here staring at me that a friend is trying to get me to read, to the point he dropped them off at my office, so maybe these two authors will change my mind.


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## Terry D (Jan 27, 2012)

Just write a book you would enjoy reading yourself and don't give a damn about 'targeting' an audience.  If all you want to do is jump on what you think will sell, you may as well write Harlequin Romances, or other formula fiction.

Just my humble, if grumpy, opinion.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Jan 27, 2012)

Terry D said:


> Just write a book you would enjoy reading yourself and don't give a damn about 'targeting' an audience.  If all you want to do is jump on what you think will sell, you may as well write Harlequin Romances, or other formula fiction.



Pretty much this.  At its core, my story is about the darker side of war and how it changes people for the worse.  Why? Because that's what I wanted to write about.  I want to explore those sorts of emotions and the character development (regression?) that goes along with them.  At the same time, there are two mildly romantic subplots just because it seemed natural to include.  Also, since the war is in the future, there are a LOT of cool bits of weaponry to put on display.

This isn't a book about love.  It's not a book about giant robots.  But it has both, simply because that's what I wanted to write about.  As profound as it might be to watch someone spiral downward into despair, I wouldn't read a book that had nothing but that.  I wouldn't expect others to read it, either.  The "cool" parts are in there to turn it into a book I'd enjoy.


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## Kyle R (Jan 27, 2012)

Terry D said:


> Just write a book you would enjoy reading yourself and don't give a damn about 'targeting' an audience.  If all you want to do is jump on what you think will sell, you may as well write Harlequin Romances, or other formula fiction.
> 
> Just my humble, if grumpy, opinion.



Good advice! And I agree. Though, I wasn't thinking of "what will sell?" when this thought-process arose. I was more thinking about pleasing the reader; writing stories that everyone can enjoy, regardless of sales. Just something I can be confident showing to anyone and knowing they will find something interesting in it, regardless of their specific preferences.

("Does this have enough action for male readers? Enough romance for the women? Am I using words at too high a reading-level, thus ostracizing those seeking a more simple read? Is there enough symbolism and subtext for the cerebral crowd, while maintaining a forward-driven plot for those less interested in thinking?").

EDIT: I included "For those seeking publication" in the OP to clarify that this is aimed at writers who write for readers (as opposed to those who write simply for themselves.)

I didn't mean to imply that I was concerned with pandering to readers for profit.

I'm more thinking of: pandering to readers for their satisfaction.


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