# !8th Century help



## lwhitehead (Jul 3, 2016)

Hi I thinking thanks to latest Harry Potter play got me thinking writing my own YA series about a 21th Century Canadian pre teen boy who travels back to 18th Century Nassau in 1715, he ether 12 to 14 years of age, 


First question is how much infomation can a 21th Century pre teen boy can retain?,


2: How much can a 21th century person screw up the the 18th Century



LW


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## Cran (Jul 5, 2016)

lwhitehead said:


> Hi I thinking thanks to latest Harry Potter play got me thinking writing my own YA series about a 21th Century Canadian pre teen boy who travels back to 18th Century Nassau in 1715, he ether 12 to 14 years of age,
> 
> 
> First question is *how much infomation can a 21th Century pre teen boy can retain?*,


*How much information can a 21st Century 12 to 14yr old boy retain?*

That depends on the 12 to 14 yr old boy, his social advantages, and what his interests are. 



> *2: How much can a 21th century person screw up the the 18th Century*


That depends on the 12 to 14 yr old boy, his social advantages, and what his interests are. It also depends on his interactions with historical events and your understanding of chaos theory and probability mathematics.


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## lwhitehead (Jul 5, 2016)

1: an Grandfather who he lives with gives him lessons on skills the Pirate would need, but he can also 21th century understanding of 12 to 14 years old of Math, Reading, and History.

2 He is living with Grandfather in Deep Cove Vancouver BC but his Father is an Upper Middle Class person who has a Manor in the richest section of Vancouver, His Father is all ways gone working making Money hence why is living with his Grandfather.

LW


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## afk4life (Jul 5, 2016)

Judging by current events, a lot. The only thing going for him is that he's not a middle-aged white male. He's sure not gonna like having no iPod and no indoor plumbing, though he might like the daily drink being watered down hard cider...


lwhitehead said:


> 2: How much can a 21th century person screw up the the 18th Century


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## Cran (Jul 5, 2016)

lwhitehead said:


> 1: an Grandfather who he lives with gives him lessons on skills the Pirate would need,



Really? What skills would those be? Cutlass training? Sailing an 18th Century ship? Use and maintenance of the sextant? Climbing the rigging? Bucket duty? How to load and fire a musket? And how does Grandfather justify these lessons? "You need to know these things so you can survive as a pirate when you are sucked into a timewarp and dropped in an eighteenth century port. Now climb up into the crow's nest and keep a lookout for merchantmen."?




> but he can also 21th century understanding of 12 to 14 years old of Math, Reading, and History.



So, nothing extraordinary about the boy, no special interests (apart from weird lessons from a Grandfather) and maybe a fifty percent chance of being able to understand eighteenth century documents, assuming they are in the right language. He could get work as a quartermaster's or clerk's assistant, and map depth soundings en route because he can count. He should be able to recognise the time he is in by the styles and weaponry and strange accents and word usage, but would only interact with significant events by accident at first. If he can identify a pre-cursor event, he might be able to influence or trigger a nexus point - change our past and start a new alternative timeline - but whether it is a true branch or a braided stream depends on other factors.



> 2 He is living with Grandfather in Deep Cove Vancouver BC but his Father is an Upper Middle Class person who has a Manor in the richest section of Vancouver, His Father is all ways gone working making Money hence why is living with his Grandfather.
> 
> LW


OK. These two things cancel each other out from what I can see. Yes, he should have basic survival skills, but being cut off from his father and living with a grandfather who has some strange fixation on eighteenth century privateers - made their family fortune by smuggling and piracy, I guess - the boy would have to rely on old books in the grandfather's home or whatever internet access they have to find any information the boy might be able to usefully retain. And that is yet to be determined, but not looking promising.


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## ppsage (Jul 5, 2016)

When I was 14 I knew how to make a generator out of nails and shellacked copper wire. I've forgotten now though. I also made a crystal radio receiver. Military historians say, if you want to change history, go back and give any decent commander a couple walkie-talkies.


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## lwhitehead (Jul 6, 2016)

Yes but how bloody and earthy can I make this YA series?, I mean today 12 to 14 year old persons do swear and seen more bloody murders on TV news then in the Golden Age of Piracy, 

LW


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## Olly Buckle (Jul 6, 2016)

Not sure about the 1700's, in earlier times a boy would have started weapons training age about seven and my guess is that would still have been the case, gentlemen attending the first performances of Handel's Messiah were asked to leave their swords at home 'if it wouldn't inconvenience them' because of the crowd, where your lad is would have been a much wilder place than Dublin, my guess is he would be seriously outclassed.  His one advantage would be decent nutrition, he would be much bigger than most boys his age.


> Yes but how bloody and earthy can I make this YA series?


 A teenager living in London in the 1600's would have witnessed about 200 public executions, I don't think that would have changed much by your period, though the population would have been sparser in your setting. The common treatment for serious injury to a limb was amputation, there was no plastic surgery for deformities like hare lips and such, if you want to be realistic pretty earthy, and very bloody. Of course most fiction writers are not realistic about such things and give a romantic version


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## lwhitehead (Jul 7, 2016)

Yes but it was more violence then 21th Century there were reasons why people wore swords when walked in major cities no major police forces until 1750 I think, rewards and Thief takers were the 1715 to 1730's form of police. 

Very few of the Pirates wanted to build a nation,

LW


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## Cran (Jul 12, 2016)

lwhitehead said:


> Yes but it was more violence then 21th Century


You think? 




> there were reasons why people wore swords when walked in major cities


The right to have and bear arms didn't originate in the United States; it goes right back to the earliest human communities.



> no major police forces until 1750 I think, rewards and Thief takers were the 1715 to 1730's form of police.


They were additionals, a sort of contract security force who caused more trouble than they saved. Prior to that, going back to pre-Roman times, policing was done by Watchmen. Watchmen were usually trained guards or soldiers of the local authority who patrolled the streets or civic areas and deterred local and often petty crime. 

The first recognised professional police force in England was formed in 1749 by a magistrate (Henry Fielding) and called the Bow Street Group or the Bow Street Runners. They were superseded in 1839 by the Metropolitan Police.




> Very few of the Pirates wanted to build a nation,
> 
> LW


Of course. Many of them served nations as privateers.


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## Sakura (Jul 12, 2016)

My suggestion do some research into the 18th century. Books are typically more accurate than movies. 


I mean excessive violence - one study alone, after a quick search, says homicides in London, England nosedived during the 1800s because men started putting more merit to honour than bashing someone's head in. 

Swords - this isn't modern society & it isn't the states. Not everyone bore arms. Do you seriously think a farmer carried on him a sparkly broadsword? Or the seamstress was trained in the ways of fencing? The London taxi drivers carried claymores in the backseat? Yet nowadays all three can carry guns & legally. Swords were by & large status symbols because the swords worth anything [and which didn't bend like pasta noodles] weren't cheap. Hence why the average sailor typically carried a gun or a dirk long before he got his mitts on a cutlass or rapier either as a pirate or a navy. Not to mention the average sailor had no real training in swordplay. 

Nutrition - is partially correct. A 12 year old boy might hold his own against some farmer's brat. But most pirates, and upper "ranks" of sailors, were not farmers' boys. Blackbeard, famous as he was, was part of the aristocracy [must have gotten bored with tea parties]. Those sailors who could keep their heads on their shoulders longer than one or two skirmishes typically were trained. There was also some guy born 1825 who stood 7'9" so genetics do indeed play a role on how big we get, just not food. 

Kid - reading / writing - 18th century English is quite different than ours. Words we use didn't exist and words they used have ceased to exist or changed considerably. Not to mention most sailors would be working class, with heavy accents. So imagine what a heavy working class accent would sound like for someone from the 21st century who likely hasn't heard anything similar in his life. My grandfather speaks heavy Geordie, a friend once thought he was speaking some foreign language she understood so little. 

Kid - math - so a kid without calculators will do how well by hand? Most kids nowadays rely heavily on calculators & why not they're everywhere. A 12-14 year old has basic math down. 17th & 18th centuries saw to advanced math growing in leaps & bounds. Think the kid can do calculus? 

Kid - silver spoon background, no survival skills. - When the Marine Society started scooping kids off the street in the mid 1700s the average age was 13, 4'3" in height. Younger ones, such as 11 years of age if officer's son, wasn't uncommon. By 16 if they weren't able seamen, they didn't have very long for seafaring life past that. It was by no means easy living. Though the Society tried to say the kids went willingly laws & other things [paupers] meant they typically took kids unwillingly. Most were vagabonds, fatherless kids, orphanage brats, street thieves, etc. Those who grew up in the slums. I doubt the caliber was different on pirate ships. They'd eat a sheltered boy like yours alive. 

It is an interesting theme. But unless he's Harry Potter in disguise & can magic his way into standing it needs work.


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## Ultraroel (Jul 13, 2016)

The idea makes me think of this book called  crusade in Jeans, though I think it was meant for an younger audience.

Knowledge is power and if he was young, but eager and has social skills, he might change a lot for these people. 
I.e. the length of their lives by explaining or trying to, the basics of hygiene.
He would be way more bulky than most of the other boys and possibly adults. 
My 14-year old brother is already 185 cm, I think that would be taller than most adults in that age. 

Simple skills as Maths and writing.
Also, religious scripture was only for the church to read, but he might have read the bible .. etc..


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## Olly Buckle (Jul 13, 2016)

> Also, religious scripture was only for the church to read, but he might have read the bible .. etc.



I think this is from a slightly earlier age, the Bible had been translated two hundred years before, independent religious groups had developed, hence the 'Mayflower'.



> He would be way more bulky than most of the other boys and possibly adults.


This varied at different points in history, the seventeen hundreds were much better fed than some periods, and fairly healthy, some of the sporting achievements and jobs people did, like delivering newspapers round villages, show that. There was a big drop in this in the following century, with industrialisation and urbanisation ordinary people's diets became atrocious.


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## Sakura (Jul 13, 2016)

Ultraroel said:


> Knowledge is power and if he was young, but eager and has social skills, he might change a lot for these people.
> I.e. the length of their lives by explaining or trying to, the basics of hygiene.



 I have an ancestor who lived to be *eighty years old* in the 1600s. You seem to think hygiene was minor in the earlier years, a common misconception born on myths. The ancient Greeks, for example, were obsessed with hygiene. 1800s they didn't quite go around covered in filth. If they couldn't afford an actual full body bath  at the very least gave themselves a scrub down or washed their hands either in warm water or liquors. 



Ultraroel said:


> He would be way more bulky than most of the other boys and possibly adults.
> My 14-year old brother is already 185 cm, I think that would be taller than most adults in that age.



 Taller doesn't equal bulkier in any useful sense of the word. Oftentimes the taller you are, the lankier you are which means less useful bulk. What's he going to do, run at his opponents screaming like a banshee & waving his arms around hoping to just knock them over? 

My great-grandfather, for example, was only 5'8" and a huge man. Broad shouldered, broad chested, and *very* muscular. He could quite literally *wipe the floor *with some of the 6 foot+ guys I see at gyms without breaking a sweat and then turn around asking "is that all you got". Not to mention I know a couple police officers, big guys, who were part of seven officers that literally had to dog pile on top of a 5'3" Asian man who was more than just well trained in martial arts because despite being such a small scrawny guy he was *extremely* dangerous. 

 Not to mention the 18th century would encourage endurance & smarts versus pampered over fed child whose knowledge of street smarts is less than a mouse's. So he weighs more. Irrelevant. Unless his opponents are so incompetent they can *beat themselves up *he'd be kissing the pavement long before realizing what exactly happened. 



Ultraroel said:


> Simple skills as Maths and writing.
> Also, religious scripture was only for the church to read, but he might have read the bible .. etc..



 I already covered the reading, writing & math. Rather *irrelevant* skills actually unless these 18th century peoples speak, read & write modern English. And unless he can read Latin it won't matter how many times he reads the bible. Not to mention do you seriously think pirates went to church every Sunday? Where would they - Davey Jones' locker?


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## lwhitehead (Apr 16, 2017)

Well I need to know when Pilot Wheels were used by Nations on there boats, Flintlock used as Gunlocks on Cannons by each nation. When did each empire adopt in there Navies Uniforms, and regulations as such used in Napoleonic War.

LW


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## Olly Buckle (Apr 16, 2017)

> I mean excessive violence - one study alone, after a quick search, says homicides in London, England nosedived during the 1800s because men started putting more merit to honour than bashing someone's head in.


The eighteenth century is the 1700's


> Swords - this isn't modern society & it isn't the states. Not everyone bore arms. Do you seriously think a farmer carried on him a sparkly broadsword? Or the seamstress was trained in the ways of fencing? The London taxi drivers carried claymores in the backseat? Yet nowadays all three can carry guns & legally.


English gun laws are quite severe, it is hard to imagine a London taxi driver carrying a gun. Handel's 'Messiah' (mid 1700's) was so popular that gentlemen attending were asked not to wear their swords provided it did not 'inconvenience' them. It is true they were probably too dear for the working man, but anyone with any pretentions of being a 'gentleman' carried one habitually.



> Kid - reading / writing - 18th century English is quite different than ours.


Jane Austen was an eighteenth century author, and quite readable for modern readers.


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## Olly Buckle (Apr 16, 2017)

lwhitehead said:


> Well I need to know when Pilot Wheels were used by Nations on there boats, Flintlock used as Gunlocks on Cannons by each nation. When did each empire adopt in there Navies Uniforms, and regulations as such used in Napoleonic War.
> 
> LW



Nelson's navy was still using a rope 'match' soaked in saltpeter to fire cannon, flintlocks were for hand guns. Uniforms were for officers on the whole. The structure and regulations of the British navy were largely a result of the Napoleonic wars, the navy of the Glorious fourth was nowhere near as disciplined as Nelson's, with captains running away from fights, as when Admiral Benbow took on a French fleet in the West Indies, then they started shooting them, 'Pour encourage les autres'.

Check out there/their.


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## Bloggsworth (Apr 17, 2017)

lwhitehead said:


> First question is how much infomation can a 21th Century pre teen boy can retain?,
> 
> 
> 2: How much can a 21th century person screw up the the 18th Century
> ...



None and nothing. If he goes back he will have learned nothing, and he can't screw anything up because all that will have happend by the 21st century will have happened, nothing can change that, so anything he does will have been part of that history and unchangeable. Best to ignore the realities and construct what you wish to construct and to hell with Einsteinian physics...

18th century men, women and boys had more stamina were far stronger than their modern counterparts - we are weaklings in comparison. It was a salutory lesson watching a programme about breadmaking as done 150+ years ago, the modern men couldn't even lift a bag of flour that women would have humped about in the 19th C. A modern Olympic archer couldn't draw a 14th century bow.


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## Bloggsworth (Apr 17, 2017)

Olly Buckle said:


> I think this is from a slightly earlier age, the Bible had been translated two hundred years before, independent religious groups had developed, hence the 'Mayflower'.
> 
> 
> > A modern misconception is that the Puritans sailed off on the Mayflower to avoid religious persecution - In fact, they left because there wasn't enough, they thought that there was far too much religious freedom in England and wanted to keep their interpretation pure.


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## lwhitehead (Apr 20, 2017)

So I figure about 1750's to 1760's the British Navy had Flintlock Gunlocks on the Cannons, but I need to know when another Sea going Nations started use Ships Wheels and Uniforms.


what about Bonded Servants?,

LW


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## Ptolemy (Apr 20, 2017)

Bloggsworth said:


> 18th century men, women and boys had more stamina were far stronger than their modern counterparts - we are weaklings in comparison. It was a salutory lesson watching a programme about breadmaking as done 150+ years ago, the modern men couldn't even lift a bag of flour that women would have humped about in the 19th C. A modern Olympic archer couldn't draw a 14th century bow.



Stamina means nothing if your life expectancy is 35.


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## JustRob (Apr 20, 2017)

If you want to get an idea of what your character might be up against in Nassau in the golden age of piracy then watch the TV series _Black Sails_, which is available on DVD. That will give you a good idea about just how earthy it could be. It certainly isn't Harry Potter and the series is a pirate story definitely for adults with no punches pulled. It combines genuine history of the era with a clever prequel to the book Treasure Island, so Captain Flint, Long John Silver, Billy Bones, etc appear alongside historical characters like Jack Rackham, Anne Bonny, Charles Vane, Benjamin Hornigold, Edward Teach and Woodes Rogers. I should point out that much of the skullduggery takes place in the Nassau brothel, where the men are at their most vulnerable, but that's all part of the earthy nature of the story. The morality of most of the people, who were just fighting for their own perception of justice in a way, is evident though. A particular scene that did raise some comments from the critics was when Jack Rackham appeared wearing sunglasses, but maybe someone had done their research on that. 

Someone who has specialised in historical research into the golden age of piracy is David Cordingly, who a long time ago was a fellow pupil at school with me although some years older. His book _UNDER THE BLACK FLAG: The Romance and the Reality of Life Among the Pirates _is published by Random House and also available online for download. He actually appears in a bonus feature on one of the _Pirates of the Caribbean _DVDs, being a renowned expert on the genuine subject.

As for the ins and outs of time travel, don't get me started. What do I know? Well actually ...


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## lwhitehead (Apr 20, 2017)

no more like a Hard Human Fantasy setting that I'm doing now, 

I have some of D Cordingly books, 

LW


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