# Would a homosexual protagonist deter you from reading and connecting with the story?



## Miles-Kirk (Sep 17, 2014)

I am very interested to see people's stance on this. I have added a poll for those that would not want to openly express their opinion on the issue. 

In literature very little of the protagonists, gay & lesbian fiction aside, feature a protagonist with a different sexuality. I guess, this is due to the fact readers find it hard to relate to a character like that.

Opinions?


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## Deleted member 56686 (Sep 17, 2014)

I wouldn't have a problem with it at all. I guess there was a time when homosexuals were more or less shunned but the majority of us are more enlightened these days.


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## Bishop (Sep 17, 2014)

People who read fiction are, also, often the most enlightened because they have an open mind because of the experiences they've had through fiction. But, no, I'd never be deterred by something like that.


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## altoid967 (Sep 17, 2014)

A relationship is a relationship, being straight or gay doesn't really affect that. I think it's the label that more often clouds people's visions and make it "unrelatable," when in reality the key factors are the same.

In short, no, something like that wouldn't deter me.


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## InstituteMan (Sep 17, 2014)

I wouldn't be deterred from reading a story by the protagonist's sexual orientation. Theoretically, I guess that I might have a harder time relating to a character that is different from me in any way, but quality writing--at least of the sort I seek out--tends to bridge the differences between people and show us our commonality rather than emphasizing our differences.


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## Seedy M. (Sep 17, 2014)

I grew up when and where even the thought of such things was evil. I was then in music in the hippie era (in San Francisco, yet!) where I met many homosexuals and bisexuals. California was a lot different from Central Florida.
I have never featured a direct homosexual in any of my books, except a comic piece. On the other hand, a lot of the books have gay characters. I include them as I include anyone else. I wrote a thing about a bisexual/sex addict. He was a positive character. A major character was gay, and a minor one was a "swishy" type, who was not treated kindly in the work.
On the other hand, in "!" - a free download on most outlets - the main character was modeled on a friend who is somewhat swishy. He thinks the work is hilarious and agrees I have him pegged about right.
I doubt it makes any difference at all to 90% of readers. There are some thousands of downloads of "!" and it has five star ratings on B&N etc. - which doesn't say much. It _is_ free!
I might write something with a gay protagonist. Who knows?


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## Jeko (Sep 17, 2014)

I would as a bible-centred Christian, but I don't think the vast majority of the population would.


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## dale (Sep 17, 2014)

even though i'm not too keen on the gay agenda, it didn't keep me from enjoying books like "the drowning girl" or "the witching hour" which have definite
homosexual/bi-sexual main characters in them. those characters were who they were. now, i WOULD be deterred from reading a book where the author
purposely makes a character or characters gay just to prove some kind of inane social agenda point.


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## bazz cargo (Sep 17, 2014)

I would skip over a gay sex scene, mind you I would do so for a hetro one. I have watched a few 'gay films, the Bird Cage was good, there was one with Patrick Stewart in that bored me to sleep. 

My wife has been in the 'bar and club' music scene for years and through that I have realised there are more gays than I ever imagined, they are not a minority group. A well written gay cross-over novel should have a big audience.


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## Terry D (Sep 17, 2014)

I don't think the majority of readers would be offended by a gay protagonist, but it would be somewhat more difficult for a straight reader to relate to a homosexual character. Just as there are differences in how male readers relate to female protagonists and vice versa. There is a reason most novels written centered around female protagonists are read more by women than by men. The first rule of character creation is to build a character readers can relate to. You need to understand that will be more difficult with a gay protagonist. Not that it cannot, or should not, be done--Dianna Gabeldon, author of the Outlander series, has a series of books about openly gay Lord John Gray--but achieving true empathy for the character will be more challenging.


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## No Cat No Cradle (Sep 17, 2014)

I honestly have no problem with it and have read a few books with gay protagonists and it doesn't really change much unless the story is specifically about the struggle of being gay in ignorant times but then it isn't deterring as much as it is brutal to read what happens to the character. Also, I don't think there would be a disconnect either because someone doesn't need to be gay to understand the perspective and the difficulties and such.


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## Elvenswordsman (Sep 17, 2014)

I'm from a city where about 27% of the population is gay (not San Fran). If I had a problem with it, I'd undoubtedly be much different than I am today.


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## Folcro (Sep 17, 2014)

Obviously there is a big difference between _deterred _and _offended_. Would I be offended? Certainly not. Any story well-written story deserves to be read. 

Now, would I be deterred? Well, yes. For one thing, (not having read the book yet) I would assume, based on experience, that the book would be gay-themed, instead of simply featuring a gay character, which is not a genre in which I find interest. However, if it were a book about a man on an epic quest through an apocalyptic world who happens to be gay then I would probably want to read that even more.

The topic of homosexuality does intrigue me quite a bit, as it is keeps the notion of forbidden love alive, and who doesn't love forbidden love. But if it takes the whole book, I would probably grow bored rather fast.

A bit of a mix there, so I'll abstain from throwing my vote in, just figured I might share my thoughts.


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## aj47 (Sep 17, 2014)

I probably would not read a book about "discovering I'm gay" or the like.  But if it's about something else and oh-by-the-way-the-protagonist-is-a-lesbian or somesuch, I'd already be reading it before I found that out.

I'm a het woman but homosexuality doesn't bother me.  If it's in a genre I don't read, I won't read it because of the genre.  Say, paranormal romance or urban fantasy or cyber-thriller.  Those just aren't my thing. But having a happens-to-be-gay character is no big deal.


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## Pluralized (Sep 17, 2014)

It wouldn't bother me. Reading something written from the perspective of a gay person might teach us something about empathy, matter o' fact. 

Also probably wouldn't seek out a book based on the protag being gay, and it depends an awful lot on how the author chooses to treat that aspect of it.


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## Kyle R (Sep 17, 2014)

I don't care about gender or sexual preference when it comes to POV. If the character is compelling and written well, I'm hooked. :encouragement:


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## Sc0pe (Sep 17, 2014)

dale said:


> even though i'm not too keen on the gay agenda, it didn't keep me from enjoying books like "the drowning girl" or "the witching hour" which have definite
> homosexual/bi-sexual main characters in them. those characters were who they were. now, i WOULD be deterred from reading a book where the author
> purposely makes a character or characters gay just to prove some kind of inane social agenda point.



Pretty much my stand on this. If it's who they are then do you but if it's just there to be in your face then I will just find something else to read. Freedom is awesome like that sometimes.


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## Mutimir (Sep 17, 2014)

Did I just time travel back to the 1950's where they somehow have the internet?


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## Guy Faukes (Sep 17, 2014)

Miles-Kirk said:


> I am very interested to see people's stance on this. I have added a poll for those that would not want to openly express their opinion on the issue.
> 
> In literature very little of the protagonists, gay & lesbian fiction aside, feature a protagonist with a different sexuality. I guess, this is due to the fact readers find it hard to relate to a character like that.
> 
> Opinions?



Yes because I still have residual homophobia. It's my problem, not theirs of course. Although, I am writing about a lesbian relationship that's just "normal".


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## dale (Sep 17, 2014)

Mutimir said:


> Did I just time travel back to the 1950's where they somehow have the internet?


 no. you just hit 2014 where people are still (government forbid) permitted to have their own views.


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## T.S.Bowman (Sep 17, 2014)

Ho boy. 

I wouldn't be deterred from reading the book. What WOULD deter me is how the character is written and whether or not the author is trying to beat the reader over the head with the characters orientation. I read a ham handed story on another site where the word lesbian was used something like 37 times in an 800 word piece.

My brother is gay so it's not like the orientation itself bugs me.


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## Pidgeon84 (Sep 17, 2014)

dale said:


> even though i'm not too keen on the gay agenda, it didn't keep me from enjoying books like "the drowning girl" or "the witching hour" which have definite
> homosexual/bi-sexual main characters in them. those characters were who they were. now, i WOULD be deterred from reading a book where the author
> purposely makes a character or characters gay just to prove some kind of inane social agenda point.



Really? We're going to use that word? Damn those gays and their agenda to be treated as equals! I'm gonna give you guys an insider's tip. There is no agenda! We're not going to come into your home and turn your family into a bunch of sodomites. We're also not implanting gay characters into your novels with idea that the characters will make you or your children want to take part in same sex relationships. If that does happen, I hate to break the news, you were already gay. 

Let me be clear though. I'm not attacking anyone who is that they just wouldn't connect with a coming out story or anything similar, but to say the simple existence of a gay protagonist makes you uneasy or fearful of some made up agenda is bullshit. I'm sorry if I seem confrontational but it makes me sick that we even have to talk about this.


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## dale (Sep 17, 2014)

Pidgeon84 said:


> Really? We're going to use that word? Damn those gays and their agenda to be treated as equals! I'm gonna give you guys an insider's tip. There is no agenda! We're not going to come into your home and turn your family into a bunch of sodomites. We're also not implanting gay characters into your novels with idea that the characters will make you or your children want to take part in same sex relationships. If that does happen, I hate to break the news, you were already gay.
> 
> Let me be clear though. I'm not attacking anyone who is that they just wouldn't connect with a coming out story or anything similar, but to say the simple existence of a gay protagonist makes you uneasy or fearful of some made up agenda is bullshit. I'm sorry if I seem confrontational but it makes me sick that we even have to talk about this.



lol. i'm required to refrain from debating such things in order to remain a member here.


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## T.S.Bowman (Sep 17, 2014)

And..here....we....go.

Methinks this thread is going to wind up closed rather quickly.


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## Mutimir (Sep 17, 2014)

dale said:


> no. you just hit 2014 where people are still (government forbid) permitted to have their own views.



Oh alright. Because those views sound so...1950ish. I guess I was slightly concerned.


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## dale (Sep 17, 2014)

Mutimir said:


> Oh alright. Because those views sound so...1950ish. I guess I was slightly concerned.



are they? this isn't 1950. where are you?


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## Pidgeon84 (Sep 17, 2014)

lol I can't. I just can't.


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## dale (Sep 17, 2014)

Pidgeon84 said:


> lol I can't. I just can't.



 lol. it's just a discussion on perspectives, dude. i have nothing against you. i have nothing against gays, for real.


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## dale (Sep 17, 2014)

some people take discussions way too seriously. i'm out of this one. i gave my view on it. i'll definitely read a book with gay characters, as long as the characters are real.


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## Pidgeon84 (Sep 17, 2014)

dale said:


> lol. it's just a discussion on perspectives, dude. i have nothing against you. i have nothing against gays, for real.



To hopefully put this on a more civil track here, whatever your preferences for reading are none of my business. If you don't want to read about gay people, that has no affect on me. I just really despise the idea that we have this agenda. It turns something that has no affect on anybody (as we have seen. Massachusetts hasn't turned into Sodom or Gomora yet) into something that is now everybody else's business. I just think it is a really detrimental thought because it is this made up idea that gives people licence to be nosy. If


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## dale (Sep 17, 2014)

Pidgeon84 said:


> To hopefully put this on a more civil track here, whatever your preferences for reading are none of my business. If you don't want to read about gay people, that has no affect on me. I just really despise the idea that we have this agenda. It turns something that has no affect on anybody (as we have seen. Massachusetts hasn't turned into Sodom or Gomora yet) into something that is now everybody else's business. I just think it is a really detrimental thought because it is this made up idea that gives people licence to be nosy. If



*sigh" i'm really not supposed to go into crap like this anymore here, but i don't think YOU have an agenda, as a gay person. you're fine, brother. it's hetero white FAKE politicians who have this agenda to divide people to conquer people. that's my belief. i'm not supposed to talk about these things here, but i think you're cool as a person.
i didn't mean any of this crap against you personally. you're a great creative person. and it all was a decent discussion with people just saying what they felt until it turned into this whole "thing". i don't like the "agenda" that i should be socially forced to feel a certain way when i don't. do you?


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## Pidgeon84 (Sep 17, 2014)

No, I suppose we can agree on that


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## Mutimir (Sep 17, 2014)

Pidgeon84 said:


> To hopefully put this on a more civil track here, whatever your preferences for reading are none of my business. If you don't want to read about gay people, that has no affect on me. I just really despise the idea that we have this agenda. It turns something that has no affect on anybody (as we have seen. Massachusetts hasn't turned into Sodom or Gomora yet) into something that is now everybody else's business. I just think it is a really detrimental thought because it is this made up idea that gives people licence to be nosy. If



Yeah, the word agenda is used to make it appear threatening. Somehow this "agenda" is going to take away someone's rights. In my belief, I see it as the desire to be free from oversight.


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## TKent (Sep 17, 2014)

A gay protagonist would not deter me from a book. A poorly written book would regardless of the genre or the subject matter (except I have been known to suffer through some poorly written romance and vampire books that had just a shred of something good in them...what can I say!) 

I'm not sure what gay 'themed' books are, but if that means books that address relationships, emotions, feelings, life experiences of someone who is gay, if it is well-written and a good story that I'm interested, I'm all in.  Or it could be any book with gay protagonists. Same with movies. Holy Moly, Boy's Don't Cry is one of my all time favorite movies. Wow, that was a well-written screenplay for sure. Had it been a book, I would have read it in a heartbeat. 

And I have liked books that had gay characters but weren't what I guess is being called 'gay-themed' books. Interview with a vampire - Louis & Lestat were 2 of my very favorite vamps!

Crying Game by Neil Jordan - probably in my top ten (god I have have about a hundred books in my top ten, despite studying mathematics in college...LOL)

Heck, I even find a gay/bisexual romance pretty hot from time to time. Especially if it includes themes of jealousy/betrayal. What can I say?? 

I'd say write the book, and choose the character that makes sense for the book. If its a good book (and people hear about it) they will read it!


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## shadowwalker (Sep 18, 2014)

I don't care what the MC is as long as I don't get hit over the head with it. Call it 'agenda', call it 'message', call it 'focus' - I'm not interested in being preached at. That applies to gay characters, PoC characters, female characters, religious characters, whatever. So make the character and story interesting and believable, sans the social messaging, and I'll read it.


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## Mutimir (Sep 18, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> I don't care what the MC is as long as I don't get hit over the head with it. Call it 'agenda', call it 'message', call it 'focus' - I'm not interested in being preached at. That applies to gay characters, PoC characters, female characters, religious characters, whatever. So make the character and story interesting and believable, sans the social messaging, and I'll read it.



What's the point of reading if you believe that? I love being preached at while I'm reading. I might as well just exclusively read the newspaper otherwise or romance novels.


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## bookmasta (Sep 18, 2014)

While the nature of this topic may hold differing views by our members, it is also to be courteous of everyone else's views as a part of this forum, by which includes by respectful of all members and showing them the same respect you expect in return. This thread is straying off topic and needs to return to the original discussion as posted by the OP. This is the only warning you will get. Consider your words wisely.


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## T.S.Bowman (Sep 18, 2014)

Mutimir said:


> What's the point of reading if you believe that? I love being preached at while I'm reading. I might as well just exclusively read the newspaper otherwise or romance novels.



Some people don't mind when a writer gets "preachy". Some do.

Some don't mind having the author foist their personal views upon them repeatedly. Some do.

The "point" of reading is enjoyment. If your enjoyment can come from a book or article or whatever where the author repeatedly bashes you over the head with their point, more power to you.

My enjoyment comes from reading a good, fun filled, fast paced story. I want to be entertained. Not preached at. That is the whole "point" of reading.


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## count58 (Sep 18, 2014)

If we were to check the Bible, I'd say homosexuals or lesbians are a strict no-no.
But they have become accepted by society today and I guess it's alright to be a protagonist.
I've watched Bird Cage and Philadelphia. There's also Ellen de Generes show.
I see lesbians and homosexuals playing straight in movies
but in reality, they are what they are.
It really depends on your story. If it's interesting, why not!


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## Sam (Sep 18, 2014)

What's this "hit over the head" crap about? What a complete load of nonsense. 

You have heterosexual characters in novels ogling and chatting up everything with a heartbeat, drooling over the opposite sex like a dog drools at the sight of food, and banging each other left, right, and centre -- and _that's _not beating people over the head with the fact that they're heterosexual? But a gay or lesbian protagonist does it and suddenly it's uncomfortable? I think that tells you everything you need to know about 21st-century views on homosexuality. 

If you're uncomfortable with a gay protagonist doing openly gay things, but aren't uncomfortable with a heterosexual protagonist doing openly heterosexual things, that says more about your stance on homosexuality than anything else possibly could. 

I'm perfectly fine with a gay protagonist doing whatever they want. I'm not threatened by it in the slightest.


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## Gavrushka (Sep 18, 2014)

I'm amazed the question even had to be posed.

One thing I would say, however, is if you stereotype gayness out of ignorance, your readers will likely notice. - The only inference you should draw from the protagonist being gay is their sexual preference.


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## Schrody (Sep 18, 2014)

I would probably never finish it if it proves to be boring, but sexual orientation can't be the cause of it. And yes, I noticed there isn't a lot of homosexual characters, and if there is, they're mostly YA. I might be wrong :-s Anyhow, I can't imagine someone rejecting a good book just because a main (or any) character is not a heterosexual. I guess there are people like that :scratch:

EDIT: I see all members said "NO", but who the hell then voted "YES"?


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## Ethan (Sep 18, 2014)

Yes to both your questions! I have no axe to grind other than a characters sexual orientation is of no interest to me, as in real life, therefore simply put, why would the author choose to declare this unless it were pertinent to the story , and if so it would not be something I'd wish to read.


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## Terry D (Sep 18, 2014)

The question in the OP was about the ability of a reader to relate to a homosexual protagonist--not about the morality of homosexuality. Any difference between the reader and the protagonist, be it, sexual orientation, gender, race, religion, ethnic background, or even species (for you SF writers out there) is going to create roadblocks which the writer must overcome to get the emotional connection needed for a strong protagonist. A wise writer understands that and creates his/her protagonist accordingly.


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## Schrody (Sep 18, 2014)

Pidgeon84 said:


> Really? We're going to use that word? Damn those gays and their agenda to be treated as equals! I'm gonna give you guys an insider's tip. There is no agenda! We're not going to come into your home and turn your family into a bunch of sodomites. We're also not implanting gay characters into your novels with idea that the characters will make you or your children want to take part in same sex relationships. If that does happen, I hate to break the news, you were already gay.
> 
> Let me be clear though. I'm not attacking anyone who is that they just wouldn't connect with a coming out story or anything similar, but to say the simple existence of a gay protagonist makes you uneasy or fearful of some made up agenda is bullshit. I'm sorry if I seem confrontational but it makes me sick that we even have to talk about this.



Pidge, Pidge, relax. Take a deep breath. Now, you know we love you, heck, you're one of my favorite members here (but don't tell anyone  ), and we have nothing against you, and we know you don't have anything against us. I know what Dale wrote might sound homophobic, but it actually isn't. What he said is a writer shouldn't write a gay character (or be gory, write cheesy love scenes) just for the shock value. I don't appreciate those authors, and I'm sure you don't either. Writer should write something he likes/he's interested in, no matter what topic or genre. Seeing someone writing just so it could give society a "shock", is the same thing like provoking. No, the theme itself isn't provocative, but the writer wants us to think it is so we could debate/argue about something which exist a very long time and isn't that much of a taboo (depends on the country) anymore. As much as you, I wouldn't like some stereotypical gay character, just as much I wouldn't like stereotypical woman, man, etc. 

I noticed Dale has an unfortunately tendency (just as much as I do) to be misunderstood. Bad choice of words, or a member didn't pay attention. Happens to me a lot of time, but what I do then is I read it again. And realize there isn't any hidden meaning. I'm not defending him, and I realize you were angry/offended when you read that, but you took it out on the wrong person. Give a piece of your mind to the people who thinks/says very bad things about gay people (and from experience that people usually hate more than just one category of people), I would personally spit in their face (although I won't because I try to keep it in a civilized manner). Okay, not everybody's gonna like it, but it's a different thing when you don't like it, and when you hate it on a such personal level. Everybody should do what they want if they're not breaking the law, or hurting themselves or others. Live and let live. 

Last off, I promise.


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## Apple Ice (Sep 18, 2014)

Hmm, I'm not understanding this "won't be as relate-able" thing. Gay people love, shit, hurt, cry, laugh, fight and have sex fundamentally exactly the same as anyone else.  They are exactly the same as anyone else. Where a man decides to stick his penis or a woman her vagina has never in real life affected anyone negatively, so it certainly wouldn't in fiction. A gay sex scene would be just as readable as a hetro sex scene. 

In general it's safe to assume you'll be absolutely fine having a gay protagonist


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## spartan928 (Sep 18, 2014)

No. Crappy writing and crappy stories deter me from reading them, not much else.


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## dale (Sep 18, 2014)

Apple Ice said:


> Hmm, I'm not understanding this "won't be as relate-able" thing. Gay people love, shit, hurt, cry, laugh, fight and have sex fundamentally exactly the same as anyone else.  They are exactly the same as anyone else. Where a man decides to stick his penis or a woman her vagina has never in real life affected anyone negatively, so it certainly wouldn't in fiction. A gay sex scene would be just as readable as a hetro sex scene.
> 
> In general it's safe to assume you'll be absolutely fine having a gay protagonist



i'll agree with this. i can relate to hannibal lecter, but i haven't killed and eaten anyone yet.


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## Schrody (Sep 18, 2014)

Ethan said:


> Yes to both your questions! I have no axe to grind other than a characters sexual orientation is of no interest to me, as in real life, therefore simply put, why would the author choose to declare this unless it were pertinent to the story , and if so it would not be something I'd wish to read.



Ah, but your question can be viewed from another perspective: Why would a writer declare someone is heterosexual, Afro American, Asian, White? Is it important to the story? Probably not. So when reading a book, if not specified, we can all assume that the character is an Asian, homosexual, etc. Why does it always has to be a white heterosexual? I think it speaks more of the society we grew up/living in.


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## Schrody (Sep 18, 2014)

Apple Ice said:


> Hmm, I'm not understanding this "won't be as relate-able" thing. Gay people love, shit, hurt, cry, laugh, fight and have sex fundamentally exactly the same as anyone else.  They are exactly the same as anyone else. Where a man decides to stick his penis or a woman her vagina has never in real life affected anyone negatively, so it certainly wouldn't in fiction. A gay sex scene would be just as readable as a hetro sex scene.
> 
> In general it's safe to assume you'll be absolutely fine having a gay protagonist



Of course gay people are the same human beings as heterosexual. They lead a different lifestyle, but who of us doesn't?! The only ones who claimed they're :insert some bad words: are the mind numbing, narrow minded people I don't like. You don't have to love it, but you don't have to hate it for no apparent reason.


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## Kevin (Sep 18, 2014)

I suppose I could put up with a sodomite, or even a few negros... but not those bloody Presbyterians. Anything but a Presbyterian.


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## Kyle R (Sep 18, 2014)

Just a few days ago a video went viral of parents disowning their son because he announced he was gay.

Unfortunately, there are people in the world who feel so strongly against homosexuality that they will turn their backs on their own family members because of it.

So, chances are there are people who would, just as quickly, turn their backs on any fiction containing it. But you're not writing for _them_, are you?

Just as there are those who are intolerant of it, there are also those who accept it. I bet the readers who enjoy LGBT fiction are desperate to find more gay protagonists. _These_ are the readers you're writing for.

Don't worry about those who won't read it. Instead, focus on the knowledge that there are those who _would_ like to read it. :encouragement:


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## TKent (Sep 18, 2014)

Uhhh, thanks Apple for saying what I was trying to say but making sense. I do not agree with only writing a gay protagonist for LGBT audiences and/or genres. That would be like saying (and I'm so sorry for continuing to refer to vamp and romance stories, I am soo sad...) Interview with the Vampire was for gay audiences just because Lestat had a thing for Louis or that Boy's don't cry (the movie) was for lgbt audiences because it was about the experience of someone who was not hetero. 

 Honestly, I am more likely to connect with a sensitive character than a non-emotional character. So whether hetero or lgbt or black or white or alien, it is about that character's personality and emotions, etc. 

There are obviously specific subjects / genres that I read because I want to put myself in the place of a protagonist (cheesy romance) and so, yeah, generally I am going to choose one with a female hetero protagonist so I can make-believe it is me...LOL.  God this site really results in me admitting such immature things about myself. 



Apple Ice said:


> Hmm, I'm not understanding this "won't be as relate-able" thing. Gay people love, shit, hurt, cry, laugh, fight and have sex fundamentally exactly the same as anyone else.  They are exactly the same as anyone else. Where a man decides to stick his penis or a woman her vagina has never in real life affected anyone negatively, so it certainly wouldn't in fiction. A gay sex scene would be just as readable as a hetro sex scene.
> 
> In general it's safe to assume you'll be absolutely fine having a gay protagonist


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## shinyford (Sep 18, 2014)

dale said:


> even though i'm not too keen on the gay agenda, it didn't keep me from enjoying books like "the drowning girl" or "the witching hour" which have definite
> homosexual/bi-sexual main characters in them. those characters were who they were. now, i WOULD be deterred from reading a book where the author
> purposely makes a character or characters gay just to prove some kind of inane social agenda point.



That's an interesting point. How would you know the author had done that? Are you talking about instances where authors state that they're trying to provoke a reaction, and 'this is how I'm doing it'? Or are you just inferring that's what they've done from, I don't know, reviews or friend's comments about it? 

I'd also ask the OP: what's the difference between 'no' and 'indifferent' in the poll above? Is the latter for people who may or may not be deterred but just don't care at the moment? (Serious question, not taking the mickey: I want to understand what your intent was.)

I'd also like to observe that in every story where the protagonist's sexuality isn't important or written about, statistically 15% of the protagonists were gay and we never knew. That's at least 12 Thomas the Tank Engine books, as I work it out.


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## theoddone (Sep 18, 2014)

Personally, I would not find it a problem unless it became the entire story. I have seen this happen a lot where a story begins with plot device #405 and then, the story exposes the main character to be homosexual, and the entire plot becomes secondary to the character's sexuality. It would be no different than any other work suddenly turning into a romance out of nowhere. However, not everyone will be okay with it, so you will have to accept that it will turn many people away; I do think a lot of it will come down to how you express the character's sexuality.


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## Jeko (Sep 18, 2014)

> but to say the simple existence of a gay protagonist makes you uneasy or fearful of some made up agenda is bullshit



Well, no. If I was a strong capitalist and the protagonist was a strong communist, I would be fearful that the story could preach messages I don't agree with. In the same way, if I don't like being preached to about homosexuality, having a homosexual protagonist would give me that fear. Because of markets, trends, etc., homosexuality in literature is still more abnormal than normal, and sexuality is naturally assumed by the reader to be heterosexual. So if someone is potentially limiting their market by including a homosexual protagonist, there must be a 'reason' for doing so, and that reason could be an agenda, which agenda-dislikers have every right to feel uneasy about.

It's a bit silly to tell someone their personal feelings are bullshit. Everyone has the right to feel their own way about literature; even if their feelings are misguided (though I don't think anyone here's are), if those are the feelings they honestly feel, then those are the feelings that homosexual protagonist contends with.


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## Miles-Kirk (Sep 18, 2014)

This is a really good discussion guys, but I am not questioning the rights of homosexuals as human beings, or what they stand for or even their agenda. As a couple members have highlighted, I am just looking for opinions whether it would stop you from connecting to the story and the protagonist. 

I ask because I was considering writing a story about a gay protagonist and wanted some raw opinions, this has really helped, so thank you. but as others have said, let's try and keep it polite and on topic.


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## shadowwalker (Sep 18, 2014)

Mutimir said:


> What's the point of reading if you believe that? I love being preached at while I'm reading. I might as well just exclusively read the newspaper otherwise or romance novels.



So then read preachy books. The point of reading fiction for me is to be entertained. Believe it or not, there are a lot of novels that don't hit you over the head with their political/philosophical/social message. 

The world is a big place with a lot of people. Not everyone is going to agree with your tastes. Might as well get used to it.


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## Schrody (Sep 18, 2014)

Miles-Kirk said:


> This is a really good discussion guys, but I am not questioning the rights of homosexuals as human beings, or what they stand for or even their agenda. As a couple members have highlighted, I am just looking for opinions whether it would stop you from connecting to the story and the protagonist.
> 
> I ask because I was considering writing a story about a gay protagonist and wanted some raw opinions, this has really helped, so thank you. but as others have said, let's try and keep it polite and on topic.



As long as it's not a stereotypical homosexual (like I said I wouldn't like for women to be represented that too), go for it!


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## shadowwalker (Sep 18, 2014)

Sam said:


> What's this "hit over the head" crap about? What a complete load of nonsense.
> 
> You have heterosexual characters in novels ogling and chatting up everything with a heartbeat, drooling over the opposite sex like a dog drools at the sight of food, and banging each other left, right, and centre -- and _that's _not beating people over the head with the fact that they're heterosexual? But a gay or lesbian protagonist does it and suddenly it's uncomfortable? I think that tells you everything you need to know about 21st-century views on homosexuality.
> 
> If you're uncomfortable with a gay protagonist doing openly gay things, but aren't uncomfortable with a heterosexual protagonist doing openly heterosexual things, that says more about your stance on homosexuality than anything else possibly could.



No, it's really not bullshit, Sam. It's not about the sex part, either, at least for me. Too much sex is too much sex, no matter who's involved. It's about the story becoming about being gay, versus the murder mystery or the historical incident or whatever else the story was purported to be about. It's about it becoming a political or social statement versus a romance or murder or thriller.

A very good friend of mine writes M/M romance - published several books in that genre. I've read most of them, beta'd several. I have no problem with them because I know going in what the focus is, regardless of the plot "surrounding" it. But if I'm reading what's supposed to be a murder mystery, and it dwells continually on the the religious bigotry of the suspect, way past the point of it being characterization or possible motive, with long "explanations" of how wrong it is - yeah, that book's going in the trash.


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## talmaflower (Sep 18, 2014)

Well, it certainly wouldn't deter me, but then again, I'm bi, so maybe I get the best of all possible worlds!  ;-)

Mind you, although I'm female I find I relate best to male protagonists (in the 'I want to be you' sense, not the 'I think you're a hunk' sense!) so maybe I'm not quite normal, I don't know.

One of the main characters in the novel I'm planning at the moment is confused about his sexuality.  It's not a massive theme though, just something that arises as a consequence of other themes and I'm not intending to labour it.  

I don't find it hard to relate to characters that are different from me, whether it's to do with sexuality or any other aspect.  I think if you're straight and you're reading about a gay character you can identify with how they might feel about their partner regardless of what sex their partner is!  I suppose you might not have such a personal understanding of some of the barriers and prejudices faced, but that could be true of any character - if you're reading about someone being forced into a marriage for cultural reasons, for instance.


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## shinyford (Sep 18, 2014)

I'm a white, straight, male. I'd quite like to be gay, but I'm not and there's not a lot I can do about it. I'd have no greater problem with a gay protagonist than I would with a female or black one. I have a problem with bad writing, and writing will have to be extremely good for me to stomach an agenda being pushed down my throat - Robert E Heinlein, I'm looking at you, and I only just made it through your novels (huge straight, sex and sexism agenda if you haven't read them). Apart from that, the strength of writing and plotting beats all.


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## T.S.Bowman (Sep 18, 2014)

Sam said:


> What's this "hit over the head" crap about? What a complete load of nonsense.
> 
> You have heterosexual characters in novels ogling and chatting up everything with a heartbeat, drooling over the opposite sex like a dog drools at the sight of food, and banging each other left, right, and centre -- and _that's _not beating people over the head with the fact that they're heterosexual? But a gay or lesbian protagonist does it and suddenly it's uncomfortable? I think that tells you everything you need to know about 21st-century views on homosexuality.
> 
> ...



First of all, no one in ANY of my work will be "chatting up everything with a heartbeat, drooling over the opposite sex  like a dog drools at the sight of food, and banging each other left,  right,".

Second of all, as I stated before, my brother is gay so a gay protagonist, or antagonist, whichever the case may be, isn't going to bother me in the slightest.

_My_ reference to being beaten over the head was a direct reference to the piece I read that used the words 'lesbian' something like 37 times in a piece that was less than 800 words. 

That is a prime example of an author using prose in a way that resembles an ogre using it's fists.

I haven't read the entire thread as of yet, but in what I have read, the vast majority of the people with a dissenting opinion have clearly stated that if the story is well written, then the orientation of the MC is no big issue.

The example I gave is one of a piece that was not well written.


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## Sc0pe (Sep 18, 2014)

Sam said:


> What's this "hit over the head" crap about? What a complete load of nonsense.
> 
> You have heterosexual characters in novels ogling and chatting up everything with a heartbeat, drooling over the opposite sex like a dog drools at the sight of food, and banging each other left, right, and centre -- and _that's _not beating people over the head with the fact that they're heterosexual? But a gay or lesbian protagonist does it and suddenly it's uncomfortable? I think that tells you everything you need to know about 21st-century views on homosexuality.
> 
> ...



So thats kind of like saying that if say someone loves eating slugs for lunch. I'm not fond of seeing someone sit there and watch someone down a plate of what I consider wet garden dwellers, so dose that make me wrong? no, it's just not my thing. I would rather have salted chips. 

Dose that makes the person eating them a bad parson? of course not, thats it his/her thing.

I may not see any good time in watching someone eat the stuff but it dose not change the way I see them because no matter what we are people first and thats what I look for when I see a person.

If someone deems something no to be there thing then who are you to categorize them as "such and such"? Maybe your not trying to sound like it but you almost make it sound like we are not allowed to have different tests. Nothing wrong with having different tests it's people who want to labels someone because of there tests and that goes to both sides.

I like my book the way I like them and you like your the way you like them, that simple.

edit: I  forgot to add. Im not fond of a book that centers around sex so I would drop that the same way I would drop a book too centered around same sex romance. just my preference.


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## Sam (Sep 18, 2014)

Sc0pe said:


> So thats kind of like saying that if say someone loves eating slugs for lunch. I'm not fond of seeing someone sit there and watch someone down a plate of what I consider wet garden dwellers, so dose that make me wrong? no, it's just not my thing. I would rather have salted chips.
> 
> Dose that makes the person eating them a bad parson? of course not, thats it his/her thing.
> 
> ...



Ah, the ever-delightful straw man fallacy. 

Any time someone begins a rebuttal with "so you're saying" or "that's like saying", a straw man is coming. 

But thanks for playing.


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## Blade (Sep 18, 2014)

Ethan said:


> Yes to both your questions! I have no axe to grind other than a characters sexual orientation is of no interest to me, as in real life, therefore simply put, why would the author choose to declare this unless it were pertinent to the story , and if so it would not be something I'd wish to read.



That is pretty well why I voted 'indifferent'. Thanks for the explanation.:eagerness:

It is not opposition to gays per se that worries me but being lectured or educated on a 'debate' that has gone far past tedious in my mind. Sadly there seems to be no 'both' here but only "either/or'.:disgust:


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## hvysmker (Sep 18, 2014)

I don't consider homosexuality an issue. Only one more aspect of a complex character. 

I don't think I'd read a story centered on the issue, simply because it doesn't interest me.

I've even written one western story about a gay gunslinger traveling with a lesbian companion.  The point is central to the story but not a major plot, which is a typical horse opera.  A ranch is failing because of a bad sheriff, etc.  The protaganist's skill with a revolver is more stressed than his sexual orientation.

I've had quite a  bit of gay friends and co-workers over the years and the only difference I could see is we rarely talked about certain subjects that one of us wasn't interested in.  At one time I had two lesbian roommates and we didn't have any issues to speak of.

Charlie


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## Pluralized (Sep 18, 2014)

The more I think about this, the more I think it would be refreshing and eye-opening to read such fiction. The more we accept alternate lifestyles into our culture, the more accepting we become overall. Anyone worried about the pervasiveness of alternate lifestyles or a perceived 'agenda' is projecting their own insecurities.


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## Sunny (Sep 18, 2014)

I read a gay book once and I didn't like it. I DID like it, up until that point. I think it's because I didn't know it was about a love story between two girls. 

In the beginning of the book, the girl protagonist seemed to be heterosexual and was falling in love with a man. As their love story went on, a girl came into the picture. I didn't understand what was happening when there seemed to be something blossoming between the two girls, and the male character was being left behind. Less and less about him and more and more about this new girl. 

When I think about it now, I'm not sure why I decided not to like that book. It wasn't bad writing. I liked it up until the point where she kissed the other girl. 

I kind of get attached to the "first" love interest in any books, so when I read a love triangle, no matter how much the author wants me to like love interest number two, I can't seem to let go of the first one. I dislike the switch. I'm always glued to number one. 

But then, I also thought that maybe I disliked the main character kissing the girl, because I couldn't relate to it. When I read a romance scene between a man and a woman, I know what that feels like. I can go to that place. I can be that character and know what it's like to be doing those things. But when the female lead kissed another girl, I just stopped. I tried to picture it. I tried to be open minded and go with it. But I just couldn't. 

From the beginning, I had been reading that book as I myself was that character, and I just couldn't relate to gay kissing. 

However, I'm not so sure it has everything to do with being _gay _though. 

I read another vampire novel where the protagonist was sexually aroused when her vampire boyfriend bit her and drank her blood. (I love vampire and werewolf novels by the way). BUT, I couldn't relate to these romantic moments where they were bonding because I couldn't suspend my disbelief enough to make myself love a feeling I didn't recognize or even have the faintest idea what it could be like. Their intimacy was not something I could grasp. Maybe that's bad writing, or maybe that's just me refusing to like it.

So there's that. 

But then again, I did read a novel where the protagonist's best friend was a gay male and he fell in love with another male friend of theirs. It wasn't told from their POV, so I was seeing it happen as a third party as their love story developed. I absolutely LOVED that gay story and didn't have any problems getting into it. There were descriptive sexual scenes and I was attached to every word I read. So maybe an author writing about gay characters and wanting heterosexual readers, has to work a little harder at making me feel it. I don't know.  

And, to answer the question, I wouldn't go out to purchase a _romance _book about gay characters because I can't relate to their feelings for the most part (their sexual attractions I mean). 

And that is the best part of reading fiction for me. I want to be that character and feel what they feel. Being gay or having my blood drank to turn me on is not something I can get myself wrapped up into.


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## E. Zamora (Sep 18, 2014)

Could somebody please post the Homosexual Agenda? I've misplaced mine and I want to know what my gay friends are doing tonight.


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## dale (Sep 18, 2014)

E. Zamora said:


> Could somebody please post the Homosexual Agenda? I've misplaced mine and I want to know what my gay friends are doing tonight.


the "gay agenda" is a political divisive agenda. there are many of them. race, class, gender, sexual orientation. anyone who denies it is obviously blind to every cultural war soap opera drama being instigated through the media.


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## shinyford (Sep 18, 2014)

I find it hard to believe what I'm reading here. One is straight, so one can't relate to what gay people are feeling?! Really?!!! They're feeling the same as you. If it's the sexual attraction you can't relate to, they're sexually attracted to the same people as you. Seriously. If you're a straight man who fancies women, well a story about lesbians will be right up your street because both the main characters are also attracted to women - how hard is that to relate to? Straight woman? You want a story about gay men, both of whom fancy men just like you do.

Of course, the gay characters will suffer discrimination that you don't, so if that's what you can't relate to, fair enough. But don't blame it on gay sex being icky, which is fundamentally what's being said.

Gay people are not a race apart. Would you not read a story with a black protagonist? Gay people are no different to black people: exactly the same as the white, straight majority but conveniently stated to be different to make that majority feel superior. THEY'RE NOT DIFFERENT. THEY ARE YOU AND ME, AND WE ARE THEM.

Jesus. Seriously. George would be ashamed of this.

EDIT Sunny, it looks like I'm singling you out here, but really I'm not. Admittedly I read your post immediately before responding, so in some sense it's a response; but this is meant to be a more general point. FWIW your reaction to the vampire romance being similar to your reaction to gay romance makes sense, and makes your position clearer (at least for me). OTOH vampires are normal people too, you know...


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## shinyford (Sep 18, 2014)

E. Zamora said:


> Could somebody please post the Homosexual Agenda? I've misplaced mine and I want to know what my gay friends are doing tonight.


"9.00am tap dancing; 10.00am macrame; 11.00am put on really butch trousers so as to be allowed to be a protagonist in a story."


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## Sunny (Sep 18, 2014)

shinyford said:


> I find it hard to believe what I'm reading here. One is straight, so one can't relate to what gay people are feeling?! Really?!!! They're feeling the same as you. If it's the sexual attraction you can't relate to, they're sexually attracted to the same people as you. Seriously. If you're a straight man who fancies women, well a story about lesbians will be right up your street because both the main characters are also attracted to women - how hard is that to relate to? Straight woman? You want a story about gay men, both of whom fancy men just like you do.
> 
> Of course, the gay characters will suffer discrimination that you don't, so if that's what you can't relate to, fair enough. But don't blame it on gay sex being icky, which is fundamentally what's being said.
> 
> ...



When I look at a good looking man, I have physical reactions. I'm attracted to them. I can feel certain things in my body reacting to my hormonal responses. When I look at a very beautiful woman, I can see she's pretty, but it does nothing for me. Not physically. So I can't relate to what that gay female protagonist is feeling while caressing body parts that would turn her on and doesn't do anything for me. 

Maybe being a gay female feels the exact same things as I do, when I'm attracted to a man. Maybe a gay man feels exactly the same things a heterosexual male feels when attracted to a woman. Physically I mean. Emotionally I think love is love and lust is lust, regardless. 

I don't know what one person feels from the next, no matter what you are. Race or sexual preference. I am just saying what _I _can and can't relate to. 

I am not saying I feel differently than Black people, or Indian people. I didn't think this had anything to do with race. Certainly not myself. I married a Chinese man for goodness sakes. I am him and he is me and we are all the same. Yes, I agree. But I still can't relate to what kissing a female is like. I don't think it's _icky__. _I just can't put myself there. I can't in my imagination wrap my arms around another girl and passionately kiss her. I wish I could. I would have liked the book more. 

Just as I'm thinking it might be harder for a gay male to read about a sexual scene between a heterosexual male and female. It's difficult to understand the sexual urges because I'm _guessing _they aren't the same. 

I'm not sure vampires are what we call _normal _people.  But, I love those fictional characters anyway. Just can't relate to what it tastes like to suck blood, therefor I'm not a big fan of reading a book where the character (ie. me) gets aroused from doing it. Have him suck blood _while _kissing and doing what live beings do when getting it on, then I can relate to those urges.  

Could just be me.


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## Kyle R (Sep 18, 2014)

shinyford said:


> I find it hard to believe what I'm reading here. One is straight, so one can't relate to what gay people are feeling?! Really?!!!



It's kind of like genre. Some readers love Crime Fiction. Me, I'm more into Romantic Comedies and Urban Fantasies. It doesn't mean I _dislike_ Crime Fiction, nor do I have negative feelings about it. It just doesn't excite me or hook me like the aforementioned genres do.

I can see how gay fiction can fail to hook some people. Doesn't mean they are narrow-minded or prejudiced. Everyone has their own preferences. Some things work for some, some things work for others (again, just like different genres).

I'm sure there are some gay readers who find it difficult to connect with straight protagonists. Shall we condemn them, too?


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## Mutimir (Sep 18, 2014)

Sunny said:


> When I look at a good looking man, I have physical reactions. I'm attracted to them. I can feel certain things in my body reacting to my hormonal responses. When I look at a very beautiful woman, I can see she's pretty, but it does nothing for me. Not physically. So I can't relate to what that gay female protagonist is feeling while caressing body parts that would turn her on and doesn't do anything for me.
> 
> Maybe being a gay female feels the exact same things as I do, when I'm attracted to a man. Maybe a gay man feels exactly the same things a heterosexual male feels when attracted to a woman. Physically I mean. Emotionally I think love is love and lust is lust, regardless.
> 
> ...



In other words, you're superficial.


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## dale (Sep 18, 2014)

Sunny said:


> I married a Chinese man for goodness sakes.



lol. wow. i didn't see that about him until you mentioned it. that's cool. i just thought he was a plain ol' white dude. probably like my daughter.
a lot of people can't see she's mixed until i say it.


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## dale (Sep 18, 2014)

Mutimir said:


> In other words, you're superficial.



wow.


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## dale (Sep 18, 2014)

Mutimir said:


> In other words, you're superficial.


so if i write a story about a homophobic bigot which glorifies him bombing gay bars and turns him into a hero, are you gonna be able to relate to the character?
or will you be "superficial"?


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## Schrody (Sep 18, 2014)

dale said:


> lol. wow. i didn't see that about him until you mentioned it. that's cool. i just thought he was a plain ol' white dude. probably like my daughter.
> a lot of people can't see she's mixed until i say it.



A lot of people see beyond the race, i.e., it doesn't mean anything to them  And you daughter is cute no matter what her skin color is


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## Sunny (Sep 18, 2014)

dale said:


> lol. wow. i didn't see that about him until you mentioned it. that's cool. i just thought he was a plain ol' white dude. probably like my daughter.
> a lot of people can't see she's mixed until i say it.



Dale, yep! Kyle is half Chinese, half Caucasian. I don't even notice his ethnicity anymore. To me he's just, _him_!

And your daughter is absolutely adorable! Whatever her ethnicities are, she's 100% beautiful! I can see why you're so proud. I'd have her as my avatar, too. 

One day I hope to have a little half-breed myself! But then again, maybe that'd be "superficial" of me!


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## Sunny (Sep 18, 2014)

Mutimir said:


> In other words, you're superficial.



Huh! I don't think I am. What part of my post made you think that?


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## Plasticweld (Sep 18, 2014)

I checked no, I would not honestly pick up a book and probably continue to read if that where the story structure and a main vocal point of the story.  If one of main Characters happens to be gay then so what.  


I figure if I write a story and the main character is a Evangelical Christian who is preaching salvation and this is the theme of the book; my guess is many would have no interest in reading it either.  If the character happens to be a Christian, so what, what does it matter.  


I should probably have a deeper more politically correct answer, but instead gave an honest one instead


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## dale (Sep 18, 2014)

Plasticweld said:


> but instead gave an honest one instead


sorry, dude. but the forum took a vote and all honest answers are hereby deemed "superficial".


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## Pluralized (Sep 18, 2014)

I started reading a thing called "The Illuminati" by Larry Burkett, which I pulled out of the $.10 bin at the library. Read through it, enjoying the first few chapters. Sort of a precursory Dan Brown thing, I guess. Was enthralled up until mid-way through the book, where the author starts barfing fundamentalist ideology all over the page, steering the characters to pontificate about ridiculous viewpoints condemning all things un-Christian. I threw the book across the room, startling my cat. Doesn't make me anti-anything, just pissed that the author took the story in that direction. I'd probably feel the same way about something with a thick gay streak running through it. If it's advancing the story, bring it on. If it's advancing someone's politics or overtly ideological, save it. 

So, yeah - like anything else - if it's done right, yes! A million times, yes. If it's bungled, bigoted nonsense, then no thank you. And there can be gay bigots too.


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## Mutimir (Sep 18, 2014)

Sunny said:


> Huh! I don't think I am. What part of my post made you think that?



The fact that the only thing you can relate to is physical intimacy.


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## Mutimir (Sep 18, 2014)

dale said:


> so if i write a story about a homophobic bigot which glorifies him bombing gay bars and turns him into a hero, are you gonna be able to relate to the character?
> or will you be "superficial"?



Sure I could. I'm guessing the character didn't wake up one day and decide to go on a warpath. The experiences the character goes through and the emotional development is what's significant. You'll have an extremely difficult time convincing me he's a hero though. In fact, it's pretty far fetched that you could pull something like this off so good luck.


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## Sunny (Sep 18, 2014)

Mutimir said:


> The fact that the only thing you can relate to is physical intimacy.



Actually, the only thing I _can't _relate to is physical intimacy between gay characters. 

I relate to many more things than physical intimacy. I am probably one of the most intimate, romantic fools left on this earth. I am however not physically attracted to females and therefore don't want to read lesbian stories. I love and respect lesbians and gays and everyone in between, I just can't bring myself to feel what a lesbian character is feeling when she's sexually attracted to another female. 

I can relate to her emotions and the events she'll go through, yes. I can feel her emotions when it comes to love, her hatred, her desires to be a better person and so on. However, my heart doesn't race and my palms don't sweat when she's making out with another girl. 

When I read a story about a man and a woman being physically intimate, you bet I can feel all of those physical reactions. This does not mean I am superficial, it means I'm not gay. No amount of good writing can bring out gay feelings in me, and like I said before, that's what I like about a good book. I like to feel like I _am _​the main character.


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## T.S.Bowman (Sep 19, 2014)

Mutimir said:


> In other words, you're superficial.



It's that kind of unthinking response that turns threads like these into bad places to discuss anything.


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## Pidgeon84 (Sep 19, 2014)

Lmao I hate this thread.


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## dale (Sep 19, 2014)

Mutimir said:


> Sure I could. I'm guessing the character didn't wake up one day and decide to go on a warpath. The experiences the character goes through and the emotional development is what's significant. You'll have an extremely difficult time convincing me he's a hero though. In fact, it's pretty far fetched that you could pull something like this off so good luck.



  no, you couldn't. you can't even relate to decent, honest people in this thread without being bitter. how in your rabbit-ass mind could you possibly think you could relate to the obnoxious radical i described in that post? and let me enlighten you on something. ANYONE can be made a hero if the right person has the pen in their hand. ANYONE. from adolf hitler to joseph stalin to george bush to barack obama. ANYONE. some of the most brutal sociopaths in history have been presented as "heroes". written about in scholastic history books as heroes. i could EASILY turn a sociopathic killer into a hero. it's simply a matter of giving him human qualities. we as writers can humanize and dehumanize at will. that's our privilege and our power.


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