# Fiction Writing and Non-Fiction Writing Not Much Different



## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 10, 2017)

A required method to hold readers' attention whether reading fiction or non-fiction: Don't let the readers accurately guess what's coming next.


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## bazz cargo (Oct 11, 2017)

Ninjas!!!!


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## Jay Greenstein (Oct 12, 2017)

I disagree. In fiction you want the reader to guess it just as the protagonist does, because then, they will feel as if they _are_ the protagonist. Writing nonfiction is what we learned in our school days. Fiction is very unlike it because nonfiction's goal is to inform. Fiction's is to entertain.


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 12, 2017)

Jay, try more colorful active verbs. They entertain and hold the audience's attention in news, weather, and sports, and make believe. I write plenty of make believe, writing scripts of TV shows on major networks. How about that.

I write lots of fiction and non-fiction about sports, too. Hell, I know a lot about writing. And I never quit seeking to improve. How about that. What else. I've taught journalism writing at UGA. My goodness, I love writing. And I love throwing students into the furnace after their submitting terrible writing. After a while I decide to pull them out of the furnace and teach them all over again.

 I'm stern, strict, evil, and funny.

Here's a mystery. I write sports under Kyle X Lehr, a real name. I write sports under Glenda Gonzales, a real name. Here's the mystery question. Which sex am I? Googling will do you no good. Slight changes in the real names - Kyle X or GG. People have been searching for days, weeks, maybe a decade. They come up empty, after a final
 going through a list of infamous Jews.

A post note, Jay. You just got a lesson on fast-break writing, informal and conversational but not at all like normal everyday conversation.

Another note. Exacting sports fans recognize the unique, original writing style of Kyle X and GG the same. They decide, "A girl can't know that much about sports."


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## Jack of all trades (Oct 12, 2017)

Kyle X Lehr said:


> A required method to hold readers' attention whether reading fiction or non-fiction: Don't let the readers accurately guess what's coming next.



When reading nonfiction, I like the writing to be clear, succinct and to the point. Nonsense doesn't impress me. Neither does a lot of jargon.

For fiction, I don't like surprises. Uncertainty is fine, but I don't care for things happening that are outside the realm of possibilities. For example, a ball that is tossed in the air should come back down immediately, not give the one who tossed it a chance to pick a lock. Even in fantasy, I expect there to be rules of the universe that are easily deduced and followed.

In general, lengthy descriptions with a lot of words that are supposed to impress me have the opposite effect on me. I lose interest.

I like a pleasant, easy-going style of writing that stays on track. That will keep me reading more consistently than fabricated guessing games.

(BTW, you have a nice style of writing.)


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 12, 2017)

Trader Jack, distinct, direct I fully agree. And I hold a talent. I make waste vanish. On your message to me, I'll perform the magic:

On reading nonfiction, I want direct, distinct writing, and to hell with jargon.

On fiction reading, Uncertainty is just fine. But I don't want a fiction writer or a fantasy writer dragging me to episodes of people and happenings extending past reality into that could never happen in anybody's life.

To be sure, in any venue, straight-forward writing holds my attention and pulls me from sentence to the next. Wandering flowery prose and I'm gone.

In other words, I favor relaxed, conversational, lively writing humming along on the straight and narrow. The End.

Certainly, Trader Jack, I instilled my own personality into your thoughts. Nevertheless, the presentation remained lively and carried a unique personality, and carried authority. - Kyle X


'


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## Jack of all trades (Oct 12, 2017)

Kyle X Lehr said:


> Trader Jack, distinct, direct I fully agree. And I hold a talent. I make waste vanish. On your message to me, I'll perform the magic:
> 
> On reading nonfiction, I want direct, distinct writing, and to hell with jargon.
> 
> ...



Your rewrite has totally eliminated my personality, and message. I doubt you will see it that way. You may feel that it is an improvement, but I do not. In addition, you may feel that you are succinct, but I disagree. Your second post in this thread meandered around, and went off on irrelevant tangents.

I can see that it will be best for me to ignore you from this point on. 
This site just keeps sinking lower and lower and...


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## Jay Greenstein (Oct 12, 2017)

> Jay, try more colorful active verbs.


Has nothing to do with it. Nonfiction is author-centric and fact based, It informs and explains. Non-fiction tells us that Jack Loves Mary. It takes place in overview.

Fiction is emotion-based and character-centric It takes place in real-time, within the moment that the protagonist calls "now." Fiction gives us reason to fall in love with Mary at the same time Jack does, and for the same reasons.

Nonfiction is presented in the narrator's viewpoint. Fiction, within the protagonist's.





> I write lots of fiction and non-fiction about sports, too.


And I owned a manuscript critiquing service before I retired. So what? We're discussing, not playing, "Mine is bigger than yours."





> writing scripts of TV shows on major networks. How about that.


Forgetting that writing for stage and screen is a very different process because of differences in the medium—which a professor of journalism should know—how about a show and episode that carries your name? Again, you're supposed to be discussing the differences between fiction and nonfiction. Perhaps you could reference a textbook that says fiction and nonfiction use the same methodology?





> Hell, I know a lot about writing.


That's like saying, "Mashed potatoes have no bones." It's true, but so what? Lots of people here know a lot about writing. 





> A post note, Jay. You just got a lesson on fast-break writing,


What I got was a lot of words which supported your thesis not at all. Why do I care what gender you are? What has that to do with the subject under discussion? And conspicuously missing was any mention of your success at fiction. Point to some of your fiction, so we can see a demonstration.





> Here's a mystery. I write sports under Kyle X Lehr, a real name.


Couldn't find a link to your byline. What paper/magazine/news service do you write for? A link might be nice.





> I write sports under Glenda Gonzales, a real name.


Interestingly, you appear to have two _real_ names. And strangely, I found no link to that name, either.

You made a statement about fiction vs nonfiction. I disagreed, as if my right. I'd be glad to to discuss the matter. Literary discussion is what the place is about, and I learn nothing from people who agree with me.

The view I just expressed, about the differences in approach to fiction and nonfiction are pretty much what Dwight Swain and Jack Bickham say. I'd be interested in seeing other viewpoints.


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## Pluralized (Oct 12, 2017)

This thread reminds me of what this site was like when I joined up: people, of various skill levels, all thinking they're the best writers ever to grace the interwebs bickering from their entrenched positions, trying to one-up each other and being passive-aggressive. In hopes of what? Having other members chime in and decide who's right, and then maybe genuflect or something? Not all that productive in the grand scheme of improving our collective writing, I'm afraid. 

This site has helped many people improve their writing over the years. This site will also probably always have an element of time wasting foolishness such as this thread, Zeus help us, but let's stop comparing our genitals and get back to helping each other explore the art and science of what constitutes good writing. 

As to the OP, regarding the gross oversimplification about keeping a reader 'guessing' and I suppose therefore being able to employ similar or identical technique? To a point perhaps, but not always. Voice matters in both and to differing degrees. Foreshadowing in fiction matters perhaps more than in nonfiction. Forming Coherent paragraphs in nonfiction matters more. Denouement and resolution matters more in fiction. Authoritative tone, technical jargon, and relevant example comparisons all have their places. Nonfiction and fiction can sometimes be written in the same style, but not always. Like Jay said, nonfiction is primarily a form that informs, but can still entertain when done right. 

So I'm unsure what the point of the OP was, especially given the grotesque self-aggrandizement that followed. Are we to try and help establish a proposition here and collectively learn something about writing or is this just a bunch of self-proclaimed experts pontificating to each other at maximum volume?


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 13, 2017)

A massive audience of readers loves my sportswriting work. I inform, entertain, and provide authoritative commentary that sometimes promotes a subject and sometimes rips the subject apart. I'll introduce original jokes, some of them awfully cutting, that delivers smiles and laughs to the readers.

However, my writing personality, the same as my personality in everyday life, brings on attacks from supposed writers of paycheck ones and paycheckless ones. Nothing new about the attacks. I don't care. I write for the audience. And the audience of my sportswriting consists of casual sports fans, all-in sports fans, and exacting readers.

I'm obligated to provide them my very best, time after time.

 Anyway, the critique I listen to resides inside me. The critique remains harsh and is never satisfied. That critique drives me to keep improving. - Kyle X, GG, or other names


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 13, 2017)

Jay, supposed writers get too deep into the weeds and can't see clearness.

I'm not here to promote myself. I'm here to promote sparkling writing appealing to a large audience of strangers.

Go ahead and rip me or question me, Jay, if the ripping satisfies you. I'm secure and never offended.

A doctor examined me and told me that I'll never have heart attack. He said I don't have one.

And, Jay, don't go after that last line. Everyone knows what the "one" stands for. Substituting "a heart" weakens the punchline.

And read closely, Jay. I said Kyle X Lehr, a real name. Glenda Gonzales, a real name.

I never said either is my real name. And I never said I was published under either name. There you have it. Some writers don't read very well.

I'm ready for your next sword. I'll probably dodge it too and precisely stab back.

Nah. What's to gain by a counter?


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## The Fantastical (Oct 13, 2017)

Are we being punked?


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 13, 2017)

Only the "we" can decide.


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## Terry D (Oct 13, 2017)

Just a friendly suggestion that it's probably time to get this discussion back onto the topic of the original post and away from the personal comments. Thanks, in advance, for your cooperation.


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 13, 2017)

Your correct, Terry D. And I'm guilty. We, and I included, all should stay on writing and improving the writing. I've much to offer yet I'll listen. A reader, not at all a grammarian or writing expert, identified a flaw in a sentence of mine. I tried to validate the error. No good. I was wrong. The reader right. And I thanked the reader for straightening my stiff-neck head.


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## moderan (Oct 13, 2017)

Hmm. Okay, since I do both, I'll offer some thoughts here. 
Egoboo aside, I write speculative fictions, sports, and politics. (*Am a degreed journo and formerly editor and lead writer of the Writing Forums Newsletter, for example. Other samples available upon request. Am a many-times published author, mostly under pseudos, but recently under my own byline. My real name is not a secret. You can find it by googling my handle.)
All species of that writing involves developing plot, theme, character. The difference is that in the fictions I make most of it up myself. Otherwise the technique is exactly the same.
It's _writing_. I can see a difference between prose and poetry but that's about it.

* most members know this already. Thanks for reading.


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 14, 2017)

As a columnist, I address sports matters of high interest among the fans in a region. I give opinions on matters and support them by quotes of people, like coaches and players close to a matter or others holding a deep understanding of the matter.

However, on a few occasions of column writing, I've moved into a fiction account of, say, a football coach and his wife at the breakfast table:


"Honey, would you please pass the jelly," the wife says to her husband, head coach John Davis. And the wife continues, "I was notified yesterday about our son Kip trying to wake up a friend of his in the classroom."


"That's what I mean," the husband replies. "I can't wake up my players on the sideline and on the field. More coffee, Darling. I hope we have plenty more. Maybe coffee will wake up my dragging team."


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 14, 2017)

Moderan, I noticed the Grocho Marx' remark. The last sentence caught my attention, revealing a teaching. Had Marx said, "Someday I intend to read it," the punchline would've been substantially reduced.


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## moderan (Oct 14, 2017)

As a columnist, I address anything that is of interest to my readers. Parts of my articles involve adding links to additional material that the audience might enjoy, which I select with an eye toward spin, to bolster whatever my commentary is or simply to provide for their infotainment needs. I also provide baseball history factoids for context, quotes from baseball players, coaches, etc for interest, and science facts for fun. Research is key.
As a political writer, I provide evidence for my suppositions based on quotes from people significant to the event or events I am writing about, and use the telephone and/or email to follow up. Research is key.
As a specfic writer, I specialize in hard-science extrapolations of dark fantasy characters and future history. My roots are in Lovecraft, McLuhan and early cyberpunk. Research is key.
All three involve careful buildup of effect to make an impact. Granted the third takes more imagination, but only by degree. The trick is to get the reader involved. To that end, I've developed an auteurial voice that is average joe, both genial and acerbic.
It's that voice that sells the material.


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## ppsage (Oct 14, 2017)

As a consumer of both fiction and non-fiction, I find the non-fiction I mostly read (history) to require far more complexity of structure and language because the field of contingency is magnitudes higher in non-fiction than almost all fiction.


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## Pluralized (Oct 14, 2017)

Moderan, you have an easy, conversational style about you. Always enjoy reading anything you write, even if outside my usual topics of interest (i.e., baseball and such). I think that's a key indicator of talent and innate ability. I've learned much from reading your stuff and have only scratched the surface. Thank you.


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 14, 2017)

Moderan, you write more straightforward and understandable than several here that I've read. After reading maybe the first 10 words of someone's overly wordy lexicon, I quit reading. I already know what else is coming, and I don't like staying confused.

Readers comment to me in atrocious writing giving their take on a matter or on my take. Yet I clearly understand what the readers are saying or complaining about.


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## moderan (Oct 14, 2017)

Kyle X Lehr said:


> Moderan, you write more straightforward and understandable than several here that I've read. After reading maybe the first 10 words of someone's overly wordy lexicon, I quit reading. I already know what else is coming, and I don't like staying confused.
> 
> Readers comment to me in atrocious writing giving their take on a matter or on my take. Yet I clearly understand what the readers are saying or complaining about.



Thanks. I've been doing this for forty years or so. I should hope to have developed some facility. I try to be an example for the younger or newer scribes on these premises.


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## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord (Oct 15, 2017)

I think that some types of nonfiction are similar to fiction, but some are not. A memoir, for example, follows a similar pattern as that of a short story, but an essay or paper is very different than both. The OP made a good point, though, that the element of surprise works well whatever you're writing (unless it's something stylistically specialized like a lab report), and that some of the lessons of fiction can carry over into nonfiction.


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 16, 2017)

Expressing clearly the No. 1 fundamental in speaking and especially in writing. But speakers expressing poorly hold an advantage. They can convey by audible-tone inflection and visible expression. And people listening and somewhat confused can ask the speaker, "Is this what you mean? Can you please clarify?

That's enough for now. You can ask questions on how accomplished writers unjumble their own words to distinct sense easily understood by readers. And how accomplished writers add their intended inflection and tone without depending on italic, capitalization, and other emphasizing, and distracting, gimmicks.

Or you can look over your own work then place your self a reader. Then determine whether a sentence straightly expresses distinct sense and in the manner or tone wanted.

Fiction and non-fiction readers forced to reread in attempts to understand will quit reading. Writing straightly distinct certainly doesn't mean a dry, lifeless personality.

To be further certain, most readers don't work at the Psychic MindReading Network.


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 16, 2017)

Commercial writing understood tone and popping inflection in speaking and in writing. That's why "Winston tastes good like a cigarette should," appealing to everyone in the day - except to a few deaf grammarians.


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## Tettsuo (Oct 16, 2017)

Kyle X Lehr said:


> A required method to hold readers' attention whether reading fiction or non-fiction: Don't let the readers accurately guess what's coming next.


I agree with the title of the thread.

The focus is different, but the skills that allow one to write good fiction is also applicable to non-fiction writing.


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## Plasticweld (Oct 16, 2017)

Maybe you can help me with this Kyle.  I am having trouble with the difference between fiction and non-fiction. I would love to see your edits 

*The old fisherman

*When I was young I loved to fish.  I have no idea if I was any good or not, I just went every day.  Some days I caught lots of fish, other days not even a bite.  


Just a few weeks ago I met an old fisherman, at least that’s what he told me he was.  I had just reeled in a nice sized trout, nothing special but nothing to sneeze at either. 

The old gentleman watched what I did and offered all sorts of advice.  According to him, he had done it all.  He shared with me all sorts of things I should be doing; all sorts of things I was doing wrong and what it would take to make me a great fisherman.  He went on and on, telling me how great he was and how often he fished. I felt honored that he had spent so much of his time with me.


When we parted company I wondered two things, did he ever catch any fish himself, and if he had just spent his whole day with me, how did he get any fishing done? 


Being just a simple lad, I will only have to guess.


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 17, 2017)

Newspaper writers hand me their work and ask me to read their account and tell them what I think.

Sure, I reply. I'll read and then, if necessary, as an example, I'll rewrite your first few paragraphs. But I'll be inserting my own personality into the rewrite. Then I'll offer suggestions on general improvement, again if necessary.

The suggestions I offer pretty much the same on all accounts handed to me:

Liven and speed up the pace. Start the engine of the writing at the get go. Get the readers involved at the start. Eliminate wasted words, phrases, sentences, perhaps entire paragraphs that add nothing of substance, nothing of entertainment to the account. Lively conversational writing doesn't at all resemble grocery store conversation. You're the writer. You speak with authority whether writing light hearted or dead serious. And get rid of many so-called introductory "its" starting sentences and introductory "there is, there are, there was, there were's." Instead, start the sentences by the subject found right after the "to be" verbs. Then you might find an active verb invigorating the subject and the sentence. Some writers fall into the lazy habit of constructing sentences inviting sluggish "to be" verbs. Better to construct sentences inviting lively, colorful verbs that enhance readers' interest and perhaps imagination. And in the writing make sure you precisely, directly, and clearly say what you mean to say.

To be certain, my suggestions to writers don't offer technique or individual preference. They offer the fundamentals of writing.

Most often, however, the writers rejected my suggestions. Never mind that the newspapers I worked at found my reports and columns the most popular, most widely read, most informative, most entertaining among readers of the newspaper, surpassing all other writers at the newspaper.

I've set myself up. So, if pleasing to you here, go after me and tell me where I'm wrong on the suggestions I offered the writers.


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 17, 2017)

Newspaper writers hand me their work and ask me to read their account and tell them what I think.

Sure, I reply. I'll read and then, if necessary, as an example, I'll rewrite your first few paragraphs. But I'll be inserting my own personality into the rewrite. Then I'll offer suggestions on general improvement, again if necessary.

The suggestions I offer pretty much the same on all accounts handed to me:

Liven and speed up the pace. Start the engine of the writing at the get go. Get the readers involved at the start. Eliminate wasted words, phrases, sentences, perhaps entire paragraphs that add nothing of substance, nothing of entertainment to the account. Lively conversational writing doesn't at all resemble grocery store conversation. You're the writer. You speak with authority whether writing light hearted or dead serious.

 And get rid of many so-called introductory "its" starting sentences and introductory "there is, there are, there was, there were's." Instead, start the sentences by the subject found right after the "to be" verbs. Then you might find an active verb invigorating the subject and the sentence. Some writers fall into the lazy habit of constructing sentences inviting sluggish "to be" verbs. Better to construct sentences inviting lively, colorful verbs that enhance readers' interest and perhaps imagination. And in the writing make sure you precisely, directly, and clearly say what you mean to say.

To be certain, my suggestions to writers don't offer technique or individual preference. They offer the fundamentals of writing.

Most often, however, the writers rejected my suggestions. Never mind that the newspapers I worked at found my reports and columns the most popular, most widely read, most informative, most entertaining among readers of the newspaper, surpassing all other writers at the newspapers.

I've set myself up. So, if pleasing to you here, go after me and tell me where I'm wrong on the suggestions I offered the writers.


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## Charcoal (Oct 17, 2017)

Kyle X Lehr said:


> A required method to hold readers' attention whether reading fiction or non-fiction: Don't let the readers accurately guess what's coming next.



No offense, but I am truly curious. What was the last piece of non-fiction you ever read & how many years have passed since you read it? Be honest. 

I, as a non-fiction author whose work is actually quoted by organizations*, have rarely (if ever) encountered a piece of _legitimate_ non-fiction that is written like a jigsaw puzzle. Where the reader is "guessing" or being "strung along". Certainly never encountered one whose 'writer' was someone that put _Tai  Shing_ or _Zui  Quan_ into practice beyond martial arts like some best sellers have done with their writing. 

And since you refer to them I can tell you as someone who knows people who work in (major, national even) news (for years) a number of sports/news article writers wouldn't cut it in serious non-fiction writing. I am sure, as someone in the field, you've heard this before - _it is sensationalism and not always fact that sells. _



If nothing else, however, you are correct in that any author who wants to sell must grab & maintain a reader's interest. That is why non-fiction has levels. Books full of jargon are not really meant for amateurs just as how books written for amateurs really wouldn't sell to serious readers and/or experts.






*My work consists of years upon years of thorough research. It involves the obvious of such references is other books, published articles, etc. But it also goes further. I am currently revising one book of a three-series. The other references employed include thousands of emails sent to people who experience "first hand" what I write about, other professionals in related fields, government documents, etc. and even forums for that matter.


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## Jack of all trades (Oct 17, 2017)

I would like to read one of Kyle's actual articles in an actual newspaper.


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## Darkkin (Oct 17, 2017)

Jack of all trades said:


> I would like to read on of Kyle's actual articles in an actual newspaper.



Ah, quantifiable data...Now you're speaking my language.

[QUOTE=Kyle X Lehr;2112668]Newspaper writers hand me their work and ask me to read their account and tell them what I think.

Sure, I reply. I'll read and then, if necessary, as an example, I'll rewrite your first few paragraphs. But I'll be inserting my own personality into the rewrite. 

Most often, however, the writers rejected my suggestions. Never mind that the newspapers I worked at found my reports and columns the most popular, most widely read, most informative, most entertaining among readers of the newspaper, surpassing all other writers at the newspaper.

Tell me where I'm wrong on the suggestions I offered the writers.[/QUOTE]


One basic fundamental flaw.  You don't offer suggestions.  You rewrite and dispense with a writer's voice and idea.  How is that a suggestion?  Write it in my voice, my way.  Unsubstantiated bullshit.  Sorry, but to that is not critique that is screaming ego, which never benefits anyone.  And is not an effective way of gaining an audience.  It is a good example of what _not_ to do in writing and the analysis of said craft.

 Conscious readers know the difference and know how to adapt to the context of their situations, such as the similarities and differences between fiction and the disperate species of nonfiction.  One critical element of nonfiction writing...Being able to tell the difference between a credible source and empty boasts.

The practice in the preach.  Critique teaches writers to analyse and ask questions.  With nonfiction this essentially crucial, but the techniques learned through such endeavors can be applied to all forms of writing.

And one major difference between fiction and nonfiction writing.  Fiction, the writer is the source.  With nonfiction a writer has to question their source and confirm its viability.  Can the source be trusted or is it bait?

One author who does an excellent job with speculative nonfiction Erich von Daniken with his book _Chariots of the Gods_.  By couching his primary ideas as a question he draws the reader in an asks them not to accept, but to merely consider.  It is an excellent example of persuasive writing.


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 17, 2017)

Darkkin, In your recount, you left out, apparently by mistake, several paragraphs and several other words in my recent post.

I'm certain you didn't intend to slant to fit a particular belief whether substantiated or not.

But on the couple paragraphs of suggestions you mistakenly left out, tell me if I went wrong on any of the suggestions.

I almost forgot. Someone here requested me to provide a fiction account.

A writer sets his copy and another's copy before the sharp editor. The editor points and says, "This one dull. This one sparkling GG or Kyle X, which ever name she or he chooses to write under today."

An example of my funny fiction writing but doesn't bring smiles to readers tended to animosity.

A popular and funny Dixie writer of so many divorces and so many drinks, Louis Grizzard, got over his animosity before he died in an Atlanta hospital with me and his last wife at his bedside.


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## Darkkin (Oct 17, 2017)

Kyle X Lehr said:


> A writer sets his copy and another's copy before the sharp editor. The editor points and says, "This one dull. This one sparkling GG or Kyle X, which ever name she or he chooses to write under today."
> 
> An example of my funny fiction writing but doesn't bring smiles to readers tended to animosity.
> 
> A popular and funny Dixie writer of so many divorces and so many drinks, Louis Grizzard, got over his animosity before he died in an Atlanta hospital with me and his last wife at his bedside.




An fine example of fiction...Doesn't seem humourous or relivant to the topic under discussion.  More of a random case of malfunctioning cut and paste.  We now return the reader to the discussion of how fiction is identical to nonfiction, if and only if the writer believes their own rambling of fictional constructs to be fact...Hmm.

It echoes the voice of a member (whome), who made similar profound, unsubstantiate claims and was eventually banned for trolling.


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 17, 2017)

Sometimes "animosity" attempts to repel a threat. Sometimes "animosity" covers a deeper insecurity.

There, you can reprint the quote of wisdom. And you can call it your own.

Oh no. I set myself up again.


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## Charcoal (Oct 17, 2017)

Kyle X Lehr said:


> Sometimes "animosity" attempts to repel a threat. Sometimes "animosity" covers a deeper insecurity.
> 
> There, you can reprint the quote of wisdom. And you can call it your own.
> 
> Oh no. I set myself up again.



Indeed you have 'set' yourself up again. For there is really nothing threatening about your writing style. Nor, for that matter, do I think many should feel any insecurity regarding their own writing style. 

Writing is, after all, a metamorphic beast.  Much how two readers are never exactly alike. 


What works for one book, or one article, or one poem, or one song may not work for another book, or article, or poem, or song even if it is the same person writing. Because unless the works are little more than poor copies of one another they should have a different plot, a different theme, have different characters, and even aim for appealing to a different audience.


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 17, 2017)

Animosity can also move people to believe fairy tales about themselves and another the animosity directed at.

I hope I haven't gone too deep beyond a few's understanding.

Nevertheless, Charcoal, let me touch on another feature of writing.

As I have mentioned I write sports in America. I know my audience. I know what they want. And I bountifully supply in my own American way.

However, if I were covering an NFL football game in London for the Times of London, I would first talk to popular Times sportswriters and study their sportswriting in the newspaper to get an idea on how their writing appeals to sports fans in Great Britain.

So in writing my report on the game, I'd still write in my own American but somewhat reformat, perhaps in tone, to appeal to the Great Britain NFL football fans.

But I agree on one count of yours, Charcoal. A writer shouldn't write Book II like Book I, of the same characters in the same episodes of the same plot ending the same.

Let's say though that I decided to write a second thrilling drama book after a successful book run of an-edge-of-the-seat crime drama. First off, I know I'll keep the audience accumulated by the thriller Book I to thriller Book 2. But I want Book 2 to attract others to the captured audience. So Book 2 will feature political corruption (what other politics is there?) of national and international implications. And perhaps a couple bedroom implications affecting the other implications.

Furthermore, I hold a meteorology degree. So, who knows, a highly severe weather phenomena or two might pop up affecting all the implications. Anything can happen in global warming. Maybe the Titanic will sink.


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## Pluralized (Oct 17, 2017)

Hey I say to hell with it and let’s just go play a nice game o’ tennis. See you on the tennis field. Bring your tennis bat and helmet.


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 17, 2017)

I don't know how to play nice.


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 17, 2017)

Responding to other thoughts expressed here.

On one post here, I wrote a fiction account and a non-fiction account, a perfect representation of Fiction Writing and Non-Fiction Writing Not Much Different. The same personality in the writing of both, which happens to be the same personality in everyday life.

To correct, I wasn't attempting humor to a topic. I was humoring people here, maybe two or three.

And as mentioned above, I unquestionably stayed relevant to the topic.

To correct another, "identical" isn't identical to "not much different."


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## Pluralized (Oct 17, 2017)

I hear that’s a common trait amongst tri-gendered newspaper writers, tennis professionals, friends of the late Lewis Grizzard, and the Dutch. But that’s your problem. 

Most of us are here for the community and spending time with our common interest: The Pen.


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 17, 2017)

Cute.

Now please examine. Every word, sentence I write here remain on straightforward, lively, distinct writing.


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## moderan (Oct 17, 2017)

Jack of all trades said:


> I would like to read one of Kyle's actual articles in an actual newspaper.



As would I. 

Lots and lots of egoboo. And considerable amounts of awkward phrasing. Not sure I buy this all.


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 18, 2017)

Point out just one awkward phrasing that doesn't shoot straight to easy understanding.

"Awkward means "stilted" or "stumbling like a party-goer on New Year's Eve."

Perhaps you're confusing "awkward" with "fresh, original presentation humming clear and bright in a straight expert glide."

"As would I" - writerly. Nobody talks like that except stuffed shirts. Just say, "I would too," or "I do too."

And, "Not sure I buy him, her, it."

Doesn't anybody here smile? Have some fun with your writing.


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 18, 2017)

Jessie Hollie formerly played wide receiver for the Dallas Cowboys. Hollie speaks about the Cowboys on pre-game and post-game programs on the Dallas Cowboys Radio Network attracting millions of America's Team fans across the nation. After the Denver Broncos slaughtered the Cowboys, Hollie and I discussed the game, and I included our discussion in my some 1,900-word account on the Broncos beat down of the lifeless Cowboys. Here's an excerpt from the middle of the account.

Jessie questioned Ezekiel Elliot's devotion today to always giving his all. Zeke was handed the ball just nine times in the game and picked up just 8 yards on the ground. Hollie said he noticed that Zeke appeared to give up on a couple running plays.

However, I'm not so quick on blaming Zeke. The Cowboys supposed terrific offensive line nearly always allowed three wild-men big Broncos vs. one Zeke - where's there to go? - a reason why the Cowboys coaches decided to abandon the Cowboys previously powerful running attack and turn to passing and passing in a hopeless attempt to rally the overmatched Cowboys.

Then Hollie brought up, "Didn't you see Zeke just standing still on the field while a Broncos player returned an interception 102 yards for a touchdown at the end of the game?"

"Sure", I said, "a perfect representation. The Dallas Cowboys displayed the enthusiasm of a zombie handcuffed to a corpse."

A note: That's one way to provide a snapshot to the readers' imagination.


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## moderan (Oct 18, 2017)

Kyle X Lehr said:


> Point out just one awkward phrasing that doesn't shoot straight to easy understanding.



Okay, That's one.
Here's another:





> To correct, I wasn't attempting humor to a topic.


More:





> Every word, sentence I write here remain on straightforward, lively, distinct writing.





Kyle X Lehr said:


> Point out just one awkward phrasing that doesn't shoot straight to easy understanding.
> 
> "Awkward means "stilted" or "stumbling like a party-goer on New Year's Eve."
> 
> Perhaps you're confusing "awkward" with "fresh, original presentation humming clear and bright in a straight expert glide."



Nope. You're right in the first place.



Kyle X Lehr said:


> "As would I" - writerly. Nobody talks like that except stuffed shirts. Just say, "I would too," or "I do too."
> 
> And, "Not sure I buy him, her, it."
> 
> Doesn't anybody here smile? Have some fun with your writing.



Jeebus. You argue as badly as you write. Just say "I'm a fake. I put on airs because it makes me feel big."



Kyle X Lehr said:


> Jessie Hollie formerly played wide receiver for the Dallas Cowboys. Hollie speaks about the Cowboys on pre-game and post-game programs on the Dallas Cowboys Radio Network attracting millions of America's Team fans across the nation. After the Denver Broncos slaughtered the Cowboys, Hollie and I discussed the game, and I included our discussion in my some 1,900-word account on the Broncos beat down of the lifeless Cowboys. Here's an excerpt from the middle of the account.
> 
> Jessie questioned Ezekiel Elliot's devotion today to always giving his all. Zeke was handed the ball just nine times in the game and picked up just 8 yards on the ground. Hollie said he noticed that Zeke appeared to give up on a couple running plays.
> 
> ...



So in what organ did this appear? And who was the editor?
I don't mean to be an ass, but this is not well-phrased and contains quite a few grammatical and/or punctuation errors. The punch line is not bad, though.
Seriously. I've had people here question my professional credentials, and I gladly provided them. If you're going to persist in looking down your nose, then you need to provide evidence for your stance. It ain't bragging if you can do it.


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 18, 2017)

Name the grammatically and punctuation errors.

On the other hand, I don't blanket criticize. I point out specifics. But maybe the writer explains the specifics I thought in error.

Then I say, "Good job. I'm stupid."

And I don't need to show or highlight a comment above my clear reply to the comment. When I'm speaking to one person, I'm not speaking to the gallery.

Furthermore, I don't argue. Instead I say, "Shut up, listen," and then I make fun of the person I told to shut up.

Can somebody here please explain and make sense to me the comments of the commenter on post number 47? Maybe the writing here like secret handshakes.

Harvards secret handshake with one another to confirm they're both Harvards and speak the same language.


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## JustRob (Oct 18, 2017)

Kyle X Lehr said:


> A required method to hold readers' attention whether reading fiction or non-fiction: Don't let the readers accurately guess what's coming next.



I am seriously considering writing a book on precognition. If I do write this then I will most likely ask the Society for Psychical Research, of which I am now a member, to find an appropriate authority on the subject to review it. In other words I specifically want readers who can accurately predict what's coming next. 

I maintain that when writing any work one must have a clear idea of who one's target readers are. This view arises from having to write documents on the same subject for different classes of readers during my past working life. The purpose of any written work is to create the intended effect within the minds of its intended readers and the specific approach taken must be determined in accordance with this purpose.


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## bdcharles (Oct 18, 2017)

JustRob said:


> I am seriously considering writing a book on precognition. If I do write this then I will most likely ask the Society for Psychical Research, of which I am now a member, to find an appropriate authority on the subject to review it. In other words I specifically want readers who can accurately predict what's coming next.
> 
> I maintain that when writing any work one must have a clear idea of who one's target readers are. This view arises from having to write documents on the same subject for different classes of readers during my past working life. The purpose of any written work is to create the intended effect within the minds of its intended readers and the specific approach taken must be determined in accordance with this purpose.



Hehe I have to ask, Rob: do you find most writing horribly predictable? 

As regards keeping readers guessing, I suppose that is one of the fundaments of the craft. You could argue that dramatic irony, while stating at the outset the cause of the tension, works by dangling out of reach the way things play out. It's the "payoff" that you hear people talk about; build up tension, blow it back out again in new and interesting forms. 

I wonder if there is a market for writing that lets readers know exactly what is coming. Surely some non-fiction writing must do this as it has different goals to fiction or juicy newspaper writeups. I cannot imagine reading something on, say, complex physics, without having as much of the info as possible locked and loaded. Well, I can imagine reading it but I can't imagine getting much out of it. At that point, communication must be as clear as possible. It's the difference between creating a intellectual, knowledge-oriented reaction (informing) and an emotional one (entertaining).


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## bdcharles (Oct 18, 2017)

Kyle X Lehr said:


> Can somebody here please explain and make sense to me the comments of the commenter on post number 47? Maybe the writing here like secret handshakes.



I think the commenter was talking about the forum responses rather than the sports writeup. Granted it's not the topic under discussion (and it's all probably more autocorrect's fault rather than any of us here; it's certainly not the first time it's happened) but, well, you know how writers get. I myself have struck the screen in a fit of authorly pique, drooled like a maniac, gibbered to the indifferent streets and cursed the empty heavens at the merest syntactic boo-boo. It's just how I am, & how my passion manifests itself. What can I say? I'm a fair-to-middling writer and a terrible dinner guest.

As for secret handshakes, oh yes. Observing, learning, and ultimately mastering the art of the (literal and figurative) secret handshake - without instruction - is how we influence the minds of others with our words *ahem!*, write compelling prose.


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## Kevin (Oct 18, 2017)

What's a more colorful verb? Sorry, I'm drawing a blank. 
Does this apply to textbook writing? I'm asking because it seems like all the successful textbooks I read it didn't. It seems like the opposite. I know that's just one niche, but I thought I'd ask.
Keep them guessing... Seems plausible, I mean why not? Hadn't really thought of it. 'Predictable' seems boring, unless you're doing a set up, like a fight. Still, you don't want that predictable--again, boring. But the good guy has to win, right? In fiction... Maybe in history, too-- textbooks again.


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## Darkkin (Oct 18, 2017)

What genre does the dart and dictionary method belong to, since we're at it?  I know it isn't the sports page, (only part of the paper I never read...Sorry, but true).  Fiction or nonfiction because in all actuality, the randomness of the dart strikes has the potential to become a bestseller.  Order out of chaos.  Who do I talk to about such submissions?


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## SueC (Oct 18, 2017)

*Fiction Writing and Non-Fiction Writing Not Much Different*
A required method to hold readers' attention whether reading fiction or non-fiction: Don't let the readers accurately guess what's coming next.​
This was a really interesting discussion, revealing more about the contributors than they probably suspect. I read every post. The whole thing evolved into more of a platform of who was better at what, without being able to accept ANY attempts by others to show flaws, or imperfections in writing techniques.  Isn't that what this site is all about? I am grateful when someone even reads what I have offered here, and if they take the time comment, I am over the moon. 

The original post was not phrased as a question, but more a statement of fact. The original poster offered no comment, instruction, or insight into what his expectations were for the anticipated discussion. There was no indication is this was a quote from a writing journal, or his own.

With that in mind, my _comment_ is that I believe we read non-fiction pieces for information on a particular topic. My son has type 1 diabetes, so I would want to read articles on diabetes research, maybe even on a specific sub-topic, and I would not want to be wrong in my assumption that it would provide useful information. I would not want to "guess" what was coming next, because I believe my attention is held by the expectation that I will be informed on something specific. I'm not saying that I wouldn't be very pleasantly surprised to find they have discovered a cure, but I imagine that would probably be in the title! Ha ha. "Read this, Sue: _A Cure has been found!"
_

When I write fiction, however, the element of surprise is essential. I should mention, though, the non-fiction works that _read_ like fiction. "Devil in the White City," was a book that I wanted to be fiction but was a real account of the life and activities of H.H. Holmes during the Chicago Worlds Fair in 1902. There were a lot of surprises in that book, I was kept guessing at the level of depravity, and I certainly didn't pick it up because I wanted to be informed on just how easy it would be to commit mass murder. Having said that, I can see that there are situations where non fiction can, and should, keep their readers guessing. 

That's all I have


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## SystemCheck (Oct 18, 2017)

Kyle X Lehr said:


> Point out just one awkward phrasing that doesn't shoot straight to easy understanding.



Kyle could you possibly write up a short story - even a few paragraphs - for both the fiction & non-fiction areas of the forums? 

Not on this post as it'll get lost in the responses. 

But I am curious now and would like an example of how non-fiction & fiction are not much different. That readers have to be kept 'guessing' for both genres. 

Could you, borrowing Sue's comment about diabetes, write a non-fiction on diabetes?


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## moderan (Oct 18, 2017)

Kyle X Lehr said:


> Name the grammatically and punctuation errors.
> 
> On the other hand, I don't blanket criticize. I point out specifics. But maybe the writer explains the specifics I thought in error.
> 
> ...



Yeah. You're a fake. "Name the grammatically and punctuation errors."

Bwah-hah-hah-hah. Do you not realize that this is in public, and you're ALWAYS speaking to the gallery? Do you also realize that not everything is about you?

"Maybe the writing here like secret handshakes."

I rest my case. Maybe others will take you seriously. I dunno why.


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## SystemCheck (Oct 18, 2017)

moderan said:


> I rest my case. Maybe others will take you seriously. I dunno why.



Unfortunately, it is hard to take someone seriously who presents themselves as someone writes sports articles, who is involved in papers, etc. when they admit in their very intro that they do not possess a writer's license.


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## Jack of all trades (Oct 18, 2017)

SueC said:


> With that in mind, my _comment_ is that I believe we read non-fiction pieces for information on a particular topic. My son has type 1 diabetes, so I would want to read articles on diabetes research, maybe even on a specific sub-topic, and I would not want to be wrong in my assumption that it would provide useful information. I would not want to "guess" what was coming next, because I believe my attention is held by the expectation that I will be informed on something specific. I'm not saying that I wouldn't be very pleasantly surprised to find they have discovered a cure, but I imagine that would probably be in the title! Ha ha. "Read this, Sue: _A Cure has been found!"
> _



In this day and age of the internet, I'd be surprised if you haven't seen a few "headlines" that are actually links to ads written as though an article. I fell for once such "headline" today. It's pretty obvious as soon as you see the "article", but still annoying. (It was at the bottom of a real news item with other real news headlines, in case anyone is curious.)


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## Jack of all trades (Oct 18, 2017)

SystemCheck said:


> Unfortunately, it is hard to take someone seriously who presents themselves as someone writes sports articles, who is involved in papers, etc. when they admit in their very intro that they do not possess a writer's license.



I've never known someone who is published who is reluctant to supply a link to published works.


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 18, 2017)

bdcharles, let's examine your first sentence of your latest response here: I think the commenter was talking about the forum responses.

The sentence suggests, I think but I'm not sure.

Good writers don't want the readers to assume or guess at what they mean.

Some writers may say what they mean to say. But they involve so many distracting words in the whirlwind explanation, spinning the readers into confusion until the readers inevitably give up and quit reading.

Let me show you though a couple sentences that makes complete sense, yet a simpler alternative remains to be used.

The writer writes, The actor down with the flu is going to return to the stage on Saturday night. The simpler alternative: The actor down with the flu will return to the stage on Saturday night.

Or, The muscle man is able to lift 500 pounds. The alternative: The muscle man can lift 500 pounds.

You decide which sentences hit home quicker with more punch.

Book writing instructors repeat and repeat the lesson, but some writers just don't get it. In teaching, I followed a book writer's instruction word for word.

After the students completed their first assignment of the semester of writing on whatever topic they desired, I didn't ask them to turn in their assignment. I told them to cut their writing assignment in half. The students grumbled.

Then the next class day, I said it all over again. The students loudly objected: "Your talking all of the life out my writing."

As the semester moved on, more and more students got it.


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 18, 2017)

Kevin, I'm off to the tennis courts. A beautiful mild windless day in Frisco, Texas. I hope to respond to you later in the day. But I face a busy day later on at the practice Star complex of the Dallas Cowboys.
The 2-3 Cowboys sure need the practice. A tough schedule of games imposes in front of them.


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## Jack of all trades (Oct 18, 2017)

Bdcharles' first sentence actually says he's not sure. The reader doesn't have to guess. It's explicitly said.

The reason for saying it that way is simple. He was talking about the intention of another person. He is not a mind reader. He doesn't actually know.

The fact that there was question about the intent of the original writer says a whole lot about the clarity of that writer. Not bdcharles.


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 18, 2017)

I love fortune. But I don't care about fame except in my home.

I've probably written over everbody's head here again. Tough to explain to earth mortals after dropping down from a superior planet.

I've just supplied more about my ancestry.


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## Kevin (Oct 18, 2017)

Hail Zog


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 18, 2017)

Jack says that bd a reader isn't sure. Yet Jack goes on to say that the reader doesn't have to guess. I suppose Jack assumes that bd doesn't read very well.

Nevertheless, Jack confounds me. Kids say the darndest things. I'm sure a few silent others here are confounded too. I'm fairly sure that the silent ones don't like me either.

Here's a revelation I mentioned here not long ago.

Don't pick on me. I'm just a girl.


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## SystemCheck (Oct 18, 2017)

Jack of all trades said:


> I've never known someone who is published who is reluctant to supply a link to published works.



LOL. Jack, ya got to be a bit clearer. If you're talking to me I don't believe anyone has asked. Likely cause I don't believe I said I've published. 

Now, if you're talking about Kyle, that's a different story entirely.


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 18, 2017)

Kevin, I don't need fame. And I don't need worship, either, except at home.


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## bdcharles (Oct 18, 2017)

Kyle X Lehr said:


> Let me show you though a couple sentences that makes complete sense, yet a simpler alternative remains to be used.
> 
> The writer writes, The actor down with the flu is going to return to the stage on Saturday night. The simpler alternative: The actor down with the flu will return to the stage on Saturday night.
> 
> ...



To me, they are interhangeable, with only superficial differences, and are quite vanilla. "Is able" is longer, but suggests some definite physical ability. "Can" is more general; it could also mean "is permitted to", and is that bit more vague. Much hinges on what the writer wants to do, the market they are in. As a start, you could swap those verbs for something more interesting and genre-specific, lose nothing claritywise, and gain alot in terms of impactful prose.


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## Kyle X Lehr (Oct 18, 2017)

But, SC, who knows what Jack is talking about, or what story he's talking about.

I hope Jack knows, but so far nothing guaranteed.


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## bdcharles (Oct 18, 2017)

Kyle X Lehr said:


> Jack says that bd a reader isn't sure. Yet Jack goes on to say that the reader doesn't have to guess. I suppose Jack assumes that bd doesn't read very well.
> 
> Nevertheless, Jack confounds me. Kids say the darndest things. I'm sure a few silent others here are confounded too. I'm fairly sure that the silent ones don't like me either.
> 
> ...



Ah but readers don't have to guess at my level of uncertainty - that's right there in line one, words one and two. Sureness of doubt? Counterintuitive, yes, but there it is  but most importantly, don't let's all forget to play nice. No-one wants this page to become like - *spits* - like the rest of the internet.


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## Jay Greenstein (Oct 18, 2017)

Guys, you need to stop feeding the troll. He's not interested in facts, or who's right. The goal is to make you dance by stoking anger, while pretending to respond to your posts with reason. The weapons being used are misdirection and sophistry.

And for what it's worth, when someone phrases things as oddly as these posts do, it's often to disguise the writing style of a sock puppet.

But forget that. Whatever the cause, this is by no stretch of imagination a reasoned discussion of writing, of the kind that makes this site such a pleasure to visit. As such, it would seem reasonable to close the thread.


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## EmmaSohan (Oct 18, 2017)

Kyle X Lehr said:


> I don't know how to play nice.



You have to try to win at the bigger game.

The online nonfiction I read tends to be really good. Sometimes it's too long, but almost as often I marvel at the writing.

Nonfiction books are different. I would read them a lot, if they were any good. I typically read 20 pages without learning anything. Then I try to skip ahead, but that doesn't work either. For most books, it seems like the length could be cut in half. I have no idea why we hear about characters in a science book. Really, the last two nonfiction books I picked up were on topics that should have interested me (the Gig Economy and something about being spellbinding) and I got nowhere on them.


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## TheWonderingNovice (Oct 18, 2017)

Folks, lets keep the comments on topic; I'd hate to take to action because we couldn't be civil.

And thank you to those who have kept it on topic.


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## JustRob (Oct 20, 2017)

bdcharles said:


> Hehe I have to ask, Rob: do you find most writing horribly predictable?



I find reading most stuff to be horribly predictable, that my eyes will glaze over and I'll nod off to sleep, but I put that down to my age. The written word is all about the reader's experience and that's too frequently mine nowadays. Don't mention it to the people for whom I'm allegedly beta reading though. I can hardly praise someone's work with the words "It kept me awake," can I?

Regarding my experience of reading this thread, no comment. I doubt that one is necessary.


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