# Novel openings



## Terry D (Feb 9, 2019)

Here's the sister thread to my 'Putting it out there' thread about the openings to short stories. This thread will be for the discussion of opening novels.

In novels we have the luxury of time. No looming word counts to constrict our ability to use words, gloriously words! Or do we? How long do you think a reader will really give a book they pick-up off the shelf? Sure, it's a novel, they know they are in this for the long haul, but is it safe to bore them with twenty pages of description of the world of our book, or to dump 400 years of history on them? What do you consider the 'opening' to a novel? The first sentence? First paragraph? Scene? Chapter?

Here's the first few paragraphs of my novel, Chase. Have at it...

Chase dreamt of sunshine. He dreamt of the rich smell of grass and the touch of loving hands stroking his broad back and rubbing his ears in places he could not reach. In this fine dream he was a young dog—barely more than apup—who ran from islands of sunshine into lagoons of cool shadepooling under the branches of tall trees. He spun and cut and jumped, chasing a thrown ball as if it were a rabbit. He’d snag the ball without breaking stride and run back to Ben and let it fall gently into a small, pink, hand. Then it would be thrown again and the dream would continue.

His great feet flicked with the memory of running, but instead of soft grass and fragrant earth under his paws it was the cold, feces caked wire on the bottom of his cage.

It was a good dream, but it could not last.

Chase woke quickly when he heard excited barking from the outer room. _He _was coming. Chase’s heart started to pound, the dream forgotten. The big muscles in his legs began to twitch as he fought an urge to curl up into a tight ball, but no amount of trying could stop the tiny, mewling cries deep in his throat.

The noise grew from excited to frantic, with low growls and familiar, frightening, snarls mixed in.Chase could hear the cages rattle as the dogs threw their thick bodies against their wire enclosures. Through the deafening racket some of the voices and strident yappings were recognizable: Marco’s sharp bark, so shrill and incessant, Stub’s wild snarl, as ragged and vicious as his gleaming teeth—teeth Chase new well. Cooper,Fist, McGyver, all of them frenetically greeting their master, their alpha, their god... greeting _him_.All their voices were raised in praise, salute, and supplication. All but Shotgun. Chase new that Shotgun would not make a sound; only lie as silent and motionless as the darkest places in this dark room.

Shotgun only gave voice for blood.


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## velo (Feb 9, 2019)

Thread moved from Writing Discussions to Advanced WD


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## EmmaSohan (Feb 10, 2019)

The first paragraph doesn't tell us anything about the main character or the setting or the story. I think you want to create a contrast, which worked well. But at the most expensive piece of real-estate in a book, I would have made it shorter.

It's hard to tell a story from a dog's POV. The POV jumps around. Why is that? For example, you put italics on He, suggesting a dogs point of view. But would a dog have a concept of 'alpha'? It reads like a human's imagining of a dog's life. Sunshine?

Otherwise, I think you efficiently set a problem (mistreatment of a dog). Everything's in temporal order! There are no spoilers!


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## Terry D (Feb 10, 2019)

EmmaSohan said:


> The first paragraph doesn't tell us anything about the main character or the setting or the story. I think you want to create a contrast, which worked well. But at the most expensive piece of real-estate in a book, I would have made it shorter.



Thanks for the input, Emma. The contrast between Chase's previous life to his situation at the beginning of the book is the point of the entire opening chapter (along with introducing the antagonist [He] and another main character [Shotgun]). I wasn't too worried about the length of the opening. This is a long book, so the first few hundred words don't need to be a head-first dive into conflict, although IMO there's a lot of conflict inherent in Chase's fear.



> It's hard to tell a story from a dog's POV. The POV jumps around. Why is that? For example, you put italics on He, suggesting a dogs point of view. But would a dog have a concept of 'alpha'? It reads like a human's imagining of a dog's life. Sunshine?



The POV doesn't jump. It is all from Chase's POV. It's what the dog hears, what the dog recognizes, and what the dog knows. Writing from a dog's POV isn't difficult if you know dogs and are willing to anthropomorphize a bit. Since Chase is so central to the plot I chose to give him a 'voice' so to speak. 



> Otherwise, I think you efficiently set a problem (mistreatment of a dog). Everything's in temporal order! There are no spoilers!



That's not even the central problem in the book. The opening chapter could actually be properly labeled a prologue, as the next chapter shifts to the POV of the protagonist and Chase doesn't come back on-stage until page 135. Is it in temporal order? The first scene, the dream, isn't happening in the 'now' of the story. It's a memory of a time past. One thing nice about not pre-planning a novel is that spoilers are naturally avoided. I can't spoil what doesn't yet exist in my head.


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## bdcharles (Feb 10, 2019)

Terry D said:


> Chase dreamt of sunshine. He dreamt of the rich smell of grass and the touch of loving hands stroking his broad back and rubbing his ears in places he could not reach. In this fine dream he was a young dog—barely more than apup—who ran from islands of sunshine into lagoons of cool shadepooling under the branches of tall trees. He spun and cut and jumped, chasing a thrown ball as if it were a rabbit. He’d snag the ball without breaking stride and run back to Ben and let it fall gently into a small, pink, hand. Then it would be thrown again and the dream would continue.
> 
> His great feet flicked with the memory of running, but instead of soft grass and fragrant earth under his paws it was the cold, feces caked wire on the bottom of his cage.
> 
> ...



I really like this. The opener is heartbreaking in its simplicity. I like the fact that you have turned the waking-from-a-dream trope on its head by making the MC a dog. And there's a good emotional wallop - with the person coming in, who clearly is bad news for these poor dogs. And Shotgun - what's the deal with him? He's clearly seen some shit, poor guy. There's not much I would change here. Just watch for writing "new" when you mean "knew".


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## EmmaSohan (Feb 10, 2019)

I wanted to ask if the novel had a precipitating incident.

Prologues don't bother me if they are chronologically before the next chapter. Especially since the setting and characters stay the same.

POV isn't really an issue for starts, it's more general. But describing her cage while she is dreaming can't be Chase's POV.

The rest is, I guess, where you want to draw the line, you obviously can't talk like a dog. But I'm not sure you draw the line consistently. You have Chase running after a ball like it is a rabbit. Chase is using a simile? I mean, that's how he thinks of it? Or just take sunshine on his back. That sounds like you describing a scene, not describing the way a dog would experience it.


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## bdcharles (Feb 11, 2019)

EmmaSohan said:


> POV isn't really an issue for starts, it's more general. But describing her cage while she is dreaming can't be Chase's POV..



Take a look at this blog. It talks about psychic distance & shows that character POV can be maintained while moving in and out of perspective - closer and more subjective, further away and more objective, and so forth. No obligation to write totally in limited POV.


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## Terry D (Feb 11, 2019)

EmmaSohan said:


> I wanted to ask if the novel had a precipitating incident.
> 
> Prologues don't bother me if they are chronologically before the next chapter. Especially since the setting and characters stay the same.
> 
> ...



I don't think in story structure terms, I just try to tell a story I would like to read so I'll need to try and apply the 'precipitating incident' concept in retrospect. If there's one incident without which the story would fall apart, that would happen in chapter 3.

To tell you the truth, the opening chapter could be chronologically ahead of the rest of the book by days, minutes, or months, or it could be happening simultaneously with any of the events prior to Chase's re-introduction at page 135. I never thought about it much. To me it reads as if it is slightly before, or along with the events in chapter 2.

Chase is written in 3rd limited, so, jumping in and out of Chase's head is okay.

As far as writing from the dog's POV, a dozen writers would have a dozen opinions about that. I don't see any inconsistency, but that's just me. What I do know, is, based on reader feedback, Chase (a male dog by the way, that's why the 2nd sentence starts with a 'He') is one of the most popular characters in the book. I don't think I'd change much.


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## Terry D (Feb 11, 2019)

bdcharles said:


> And Shotgun - what's the deal with him? He's clearly seen some shit, poor guy. There's not much I would change here. Just watch for writing "new" when you mean "knew".



Shotgun started out as a simple foil for Chase, but became much more. Chase is a golden retriever being used as a 'bait-dog' by a guy who runs a major dog fighting operation. Shotgun is the man's top fighting dog, a huge pit-bull, bull mastiff cross (the image of a cane corso included here is what I had in mind for Shotgun but I hadn't heard of that breed at the time of writing). I always knew that Chase and Shotgun were destined to face-off against each other, but how that actually came about, and the result, was far different (and far better IMO) than I originally thought.


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## luckyscars (Feb 14, 2019)

Terry D said:


> Here's the sister thread to my 'Putting it out there' thread about the openings to short stories. This thread will be for the discussion of opening novels.
> 
> In novels we have the luxury of time. No looming word counts to constrict our ability to use words, gloriously words! Or do we? How long do you think a reader will really give a book they pick-up off the shelf? Sure, it's a novel, they know they are in this for the long haul, but is it safe to bore them with twenty pages of description of the world of our book, or to dump 400 years of history on them? What do you consider the 'opening' to a novel? The first sentence? First paragraph? Scene? Chapter?
> 
> ...



While I don't agree with Emma Sohan's views on POV, I do struggle with novels told from the perspective of animals, small children, or any other character who is physically incapable of expressing complex thoughts and yet whose thoughts are expressed at this level of emotional and/or intellectual sophistication. I had this issue with Black Beauty. I had this issue with Watership Down.  I had it with Cujo and Gerald's Game. And in the interest of 'full disclosure' yeah, I have it with this. I tend to avoid 'animal books' for this reason.

The story is third person so all that is less of an issue than if it was first person, to be sure, but I do find it difficult to get a clear idea of the narrative voice when it is intimate enough with the dog to know the dog's innermost thoughts and yet clearly Not The Dog - or if it is supposed to be, on some level, a manifestation of Dog Consciousness it does not work. On the other hand, I am not entirely sure how better to write this sort of thing. If we were going to adopt the kind of narrative puritanism Emma seems to be advocating it will be impossible to write this story. 

To me this then becomes an exercise in suspension-of-disbelief regarding the authenticity of voice, which is a challenging one. Challenging but doable and only pays off if it is handled with absolute competency. I think you do it well. I don't see any major issues with this as a beginning. I feel I get a very clear indication of the themes of this story, which are actually quite conventional in the 'abuse' genre. The motif of an idyllic dream juxtaposed with a hellish reality is nothing new. Which leads me to question what it is that makes _this_ feel original (because it does) and I suspect it probably is the infusion of what feels like a human situation described in a human voice but applied to a dog. If this was not a dog but a child or a woman I probably wouldn't care for it much.

Which leads me to think that maybe the voice isn't actually that important if the character and situation is strong enough. In such a case, the voice becomes passive. Almost unnoticeable as it simply functions to impart descriptions and information with indifference to the plausibility of POV.


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## Terry D (Feb 14, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> While I don't agree with Emma Sohan's views on POV, I do struggle with novels told from the perspective of animals, small children, or any other character who is physically incapable of expressing complex thoughts and yet whose thoughts are expressed at this level of emotional and/or intellectual sophistication. I had this issue with Black Beauty. I had this issue with Watership Down.  I had it with Cujo and Gerald's Game. And in the interest of 'full disclosure' yeah, I have it with this. I tend to avoid 'animal books' for this reason.
> 
> The story is third person so all that is less of an issue than if it was first person, to be sure, but I do find it difficult to get a clear idea of the narrative voice when it is intimate enough with the dog to know the dog's innermost thoughts and yet clearly Not The Dog - or if it is supposed to be, on some level, a manifestation of Dog Consciousness it does not work. On the other hand, I am not entirely sure how better to write this sort of thing. If we were going to adopt the kind of narrative puritanism Emma seems to be advocating it will be impossible to write this story.
> 
> ...



Thanks, Lucky. Just to clarify, there very few scenes in the book written from the perspective of the dog. I don't have the writing chops to pull off an entire novel from that perspective. The story is actually about a kidnapped boy of about 12 who ends up with Chase in the hands of a serial killer. I tell people the book is a cross between Old Yeller and Criminal Minds. It's written in 3rd limited and I head-hop frequently.


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## EmmaSohan (Feb 14, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> If we were going to adopt the kind of narrative puritanism Emma seems to be advocating it will be impossible to write this story.



Narrative Puritanism! I want to do it. A Scarlet I for inconsistency?

However, lots of people have written books without obvious inconsistencies in POV or confusing me. So that can't be too limiting. And I think we in reality need to be tolerant of Nora Roberts (as opposed to, say, making her wear a Scarlet H). And if the readers liked Terry's portrayal, that's all that matters.


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## luckyscars (Feb 14, 2019)

EmmaSohan said:


> Narrative Puritanism! I want to do it. A Scarlet I for inconsistency?
> 
> However, lots of people have written books without obvious inconsistencies in POV or confusing me. So that can't be too limiting. And I think we in reality need to be tolerant of Nora Roberts (as opposed to, say, making her wear a Scarlet H). And if the readers liked Terry's portrayal, that's all that matters.



My point is really that there's an obvious (to me anyway) difference between 'inconsistent POV' and 'head hopping'.

I think that's mostly a matter of subjective judgement, whether the writer was able to sustain credibility despite issues with continuity or whether dogs have capacity for abstract terms like 'enclosure' or 'loving'.

In this case I think Terry gets it right. I don't tend to question narrative on the basis of whether it is inconsistent or not. I don't see a strong link (or any link really) between definition of POV and quality of writing provided I maintain faith that the writer knows what they are doing and that there's nothing to disrupt the story's flow. So those kinds of criticisms don't mean much to me, even if they are 'correct'.


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## luckyscars (Feb 15, 2019)

Terry D said:


> Thanks, Lucky. Just to clarify, there very few scenes in the book written from the perspective of the dog. I don't have the writing chops to pull off an entire novel from that perspective. The story is actually about a kidnapped boy of about 12 who ends up with Chase in the hands of a serial killer. I tell people the book is a cross between Old Yeller and Criminal Minds. It's written in 3rd limited and I head-hop frequently.



Sounds good. Found it on Amazon. I'll pick it up with my Kindle Unlimited.


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## Terry D (Feb 15, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> Sounds good. Found it on Amazon. I'll pick it up with my Kindle Unlimited.



I'd love to hear what you think. Thanks.


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## EmmaSohan (Feb 16, 2019)

I'm not sure what we are trying to accomplish here, but talking about starts seems like a good idea. I will try. All of my starts are about the same in style -- I start with action, not description, and I just keep going. It's not an interesting first line, it's just the first line in that scene. By her response, I hope I have enough so that a reader keeps reading.



> "Health and happiness, Soolan." It is Ruskin, standing before me in his old clothes, smiling and greeting me.
> 
> He waits for a reply. Finally he adds, "You can talk to me, Soolan."
> 
> ...



So that's a fantasy book, and world-description is important. I think it's starting to leak out.


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## Terry D (Feb 16, 2019)

EmmaSohan said:


> I'm not sure what we are trying to accomplish here, but talking about starts seems like a good idea. I will try. All of my starts are about the same in style -- I start with action, not description, and I just keep going. It's not an interesting first line, it's just the first line in that scene. By her response, I hope I have enough so that a reader keeps reading.
> 
> So that's a fantasy book, and world-description is important. I think it's starting to leak out.



The scene reads very smoothly, I think the formal speech patterns add to that. I saw this like a theatrical presentation, two characters on a darkened stage illuminated by a single, tight, spot-light with no sense of place. If that was the effect you were looking for, then you nailed it. It's far more tell than show, and that can be okay, but you'll need to start getting more sensory soon to keep my interest. First person is usually very immersive, but I didn't get that from this piece, it feels distant and disconnected.


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## Dyeeeee (Feb 16, 2019)

I like the way you describe your settings. That is definitely a talent you have. I found myself having to restart half way through though. I had to confirm, "oh this is a dog" once I got that point, I had a good time reading it. Other than the typos, I didn't see anything wrong with this, other than better explaining the POV.

It went from cute to dark, and I hope chase turns out alright haha. I would like to see what happens next if you would be so kind.

Good stuff man

Hope I helped.


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## EmmaSohan (Feb 17, 2019)

Terry D said:


> It's far more tell than show, and that can be okay



First, thank you.

It's interesting how much can be implied or leaked by starts that are action, and I include dialogue in that. I don't tell you the main character's age, but if you can't make a vague guess, I've probably failed. I never tried to communicate that, I just had her acting naturally.

Same for her personality, which never is described -- if you aren't starting to get a sense of her personality, the start isn't working as well as I hoped. (She's very practical, for example.)

And it goes on. You know something about the world (intentionally told through dialogue) and something about her family life (leaked by Ruskin being the only one who loves her).

I'm not even sure where show versus tell fits into that. But your comment made me think of that.


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## EmmaSohan (Feb 17, 2019)

Terry D said:


> I saw this like a theatrical presentation, two characters on a darkened stage illuminated by a single, tight, spot-light with no sense of place.... but you'll need to start getting more sensory soon to keep my interest.



I like emotions, so just sensory detail bores me when I'm reading and I mostly skip over it. So it would be painful to add to my writing. I thought of that as a matter of style; now I wonder if it is also a fatal flaw.

When I think about details from a start, I am usually annoyed and left wondering if the author cared about them.

But you're right, this is less sensory detail because it occurs in a dream. Which raises the question, what if the start is different from the rest of the book? I have another book which is mostly light humor but the first scene is completely serious. So no one reading the first scene would know what the book is like.


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## Olly Buckle (Feb 17, 2019)

Dreamt and dreamed are used in the same way and in different ways, quite confusing, but dreamed is much more commonly used. Dreamt is pronounced, and sometimes spelled 'drempt', I would go with 'dreamed' if I were you, it won't stop people in the way dreamt stopped me.


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## Terry D (Feb 18, 2019)

Olly Buckle said:


> Dreamt and dreamed are used in the same way and in different ways, quite confusing, but dreamed is much more commonly used. Dreamt is pronounced, and sometimes spelled 'drempt', I would go with 'dreamed' if I were you, it won't stop people in the way dreamt stopped me.



Thanks, Olly. I've struggled with that myself. I know dreamt is technically correct, but if I were to write it anew I would choose dreamed. My third-person narrator was feeling the need to wax lyrical that day and I should have reined him in.


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## gene (Mar 19, 2019)

Years ago when I was younger I read the book Watership Down, I enjoyed the book and it is a famous book. It only tells a story through the POV of rabbits. But there always has to be outside POV looking in when writing all stories whether it be animal or human, this is for the reader. So I really enjoyed reading Terry D's opening for his novel about a dog named Chase. He had me the first sentence about a dog dreaming, all animals dream. My dogs dream, I see their legs kicking as if running, I hear their whimpers in their sleep. Terry D then brought into his story the tragedy of a dog being caged instead of with the one's he loves, yearning in his dreams for those he cared most for in his life, now taken away from him. When he introduced Shotgun, I knew that somewhere later in his story, Chase and Shotgun would prove to be loyal friends and possibly together shake the misery of cruelty. 

When we where kids, we had a Collie named Duke that we raised from a puppy. Someone stole Duke, we never found out who. Our parents and us looked for him but never found him. Then a month or so later we where driving down the main highway leading to our house and there was Duke walking home on the side of the road. He was thin, matted, and looked abused. We took him home and he lived with us for the rest of his life.


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## Terry D (Mar 19, 2019)

gene said:


> Years ago when I was younger I read the book Watership Down, I enjoyed the book and it is a famous book. It only tells a story through the POV of rabbits. But there always has to be outside POV looking in when writing all stories whether it be animal or human, this is for the reader. So I really enjoyed reading Terry D's opening for his novel about a dog named Chase. He had me the first sentence about a dog dreaming, all animals dream. My dogs dream, I see their legs kicking as if running, I hear their whimpers in their sleep. Terry D then brought into his story the tragedy of a dog being caged instead of with the one's he loves, yearning in his dreams for those he cared most for in his life, now taken away from him. When he introduced Shotgun, I knew that somewhere later in his story, Chase and Shotgun would prove to be loyal friends and possibly together shake the misery of cruelty.
> 
> When we where kids, we had a Collie named Duke that we raised from a puppy. Someone stole Duke, we never found out who. Our parents and us looked for him but never found him. Then a month or so later we where driving down the main highway leading to our house and there was Duke walking home on the side of the road. He was thin, matted, and looked abused. We took him home and he lived with us for the rest of his life.



That's a terrific memory, gene. I'm glad it worked out for Duke and your family.


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## gene (Mar 19, 2019)

Terry D said:


> That's a terrific memory, gene. I'm glad it worked out for Duke and your family.



Thank you, because of this, I can relate to your story about Chase. Duke escaped then found his way home, which fits right in with your story.

Who knows, but Duke could have had the chance to escape due to the actions of other dogs like Chase and Shotgun. Duke by far was not a big massive dog like Shotgun, who has what it takes to escape.

My brother years ago had a Rottie, a big massive dog. It was almost impossible to keep him caged, he could chew through a chain link fence. Another dog he had was a Pitbull, and I watched him break a big chain. Amazing or impossible as it might sound these types of dogs can surprise us in how strong they are.


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## moderan (Mar 19, 2019)

Travis Coates approves of this current thread drift.
Speaking of openings:

"We called him Old Yeller. The name had a sort of double meaning. One part meant that his short hair was a dingy yellow, a color that we called “yeller” in those days. The other meant that when he opened his head, the sound he let out came closer to being a yell than a bark. I remember like yesterday how he strayed in out of nowhere to our log cabin on Birdsong Creek. He made me so mad at first that I wantedto kill him. Then, later, when I had to kill him, it was like having to shoot some of my own folks. That’s how much I’d come to think of the big yeller dog." -- Fred Gipson


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## Megan Pearson (May 19, 2019)

moderan said:


> Travis Coates approves of this current thread drift.
> Speaking of openings:
> 
> "We called him Old Yeller. The name had a sort of double meaning. One part meant that his short hair was a dingy yellow, a color that we called “yeller” in those days. The other meant that when he opened his head, the sound he let out came closer to being a yell than a bark. I remember like yesterday how he strayed in out of nowhere to our log cabin on Birdsong Creek. He made me so mad at first that I wantedto kill him. Then, later, when I had to kill him, it was like having to shoot some of my own folks. That’s how much I’d come to think of the big yeller dog." -- Fred Gipson



Jane Austen did something similar, adding a hint of foreshadowing to her opening lines.


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## JohnCalliganWrites (Jun 21, 2019)

It seems like you hit a lot of good marketing points:

Gimmick: told from a dog's perspective
Taboo: mistreated animals
Hook: one of the dogs wants to kill their master, but why, and as an audience, we want to see Shogun do it, right?

I think that I want to like Chase better. By the end of it, he just seems like a sad dog, and I'm more interested in Shogun.

I think there are two missed opportunities. The dream sequence would be stronger if it were less of a dream (because dreams are hard sells) and more of a memory of a good thing in his past, sparked by a concrete object in his real world, and this memory could simultaneously show us something particular to this dog (his life) and how he is suffering some particular injustice (how he ended up in this cage). Double bonus points if the memory shows us the dog being especially competent or dutiful.

Finally, there are a lot of dogs there. If Chase friendly with any of them? Can they have a moment, maybe exchange glances, or maybe Chase worries about their welfare when the abuser comes out?

That's the issue. I want to like Chase more before anything happens.


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## Justin Attas (Jul 9, 2019)

I really like the very first line. Chase _dreams_ of sunshine. That gets me wondering, immediately, why he's just dreaming about it and not seeing it.


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## waterborne (Jul 9, 2019)

This feels like you are trying to show off your rhetorical ability at the expense of the story. I don't like it and I wish you would set everything up more.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 9, 2019)

EmmaSohan said:


> I like emotions, so just sensory detail bores me when I'm reading and I mostly skip over it. So it would be painful to add to my writing. I thought of that as a matter of style; now I wonder if it is also a fatal flaw.
> 
> When I think about details from a start, I am usually annoyed and left wondering if the author cared about them.
> 
> But you're right, this is less sensory detail because it occurs in a dream. Which raises the question, what if the start is different from the rest of the book? I have another book which is mostly light humor but the first scene is completely serious. So no one reading the first scene would know what the book is like.



Too little sensory detail makes the story feels like "Talking Heads Syndrome". The reader has nothing to go on when picturing the scene, and by the time you start adding what the reader should see, it's going to be incongruous with the reader has begun picturing (and will therefore be jarring). 

While I'm all for slower worldbuilding coming through in smaller doses as needed, setting a scene is different from just infodumping. It seems like you've swung so far away from infodumping and overwhelming the reader with unnecessary detail that you've given us Talking Heads Floating in Space instead. 

The talking about the nature of the dream was pretty interesting, but it started to devolve for me quickly after that. Seemed entirely too convenient for the plot that mysterious man in her dream that we just met and don't care about just happens to be a wizard who can totally just die conveniently to hand over his magic powers to this POV character that we also just met and don't care about. I think it might go off better if we got to know the characters a bit better before the old man dies. It seems more like a pulled-out-of-the-butthole superpower if not set up earlier in the work--both as a power and especially as a _relationship_. Because you're so involved with the emotions of the characters, I'm sure you don't want this emotional moment cheapened to this convenient deus ex machina sort of feeling. It might be moving for the POV, but the reader just met these people and doesn't even have a clear picture of what's going on--let alone a clear understanding of why this is really important. 

For a pretty moving example of handing-off-a-superpower-torch, you might try watching My Hero Academia (at least the first several episodes, prior to the handing off of said torch). 



Terry D said:


> Chase dreamt of sunshine. He dreamt of the rich smell of grass and the touch of loving hands stroking his broad back and rubbing his ears in places he could not reach. In this fine dream he was a young dog—barely more than apup—who ran from islands of sunshine into lagoons of cool shadepooling under the branches of tall trees. He spun and cut and jumped, chasing a thrown ball as if it were a rabbit. He’d snag the ball without breaking stride and run back to Ben and let it fall gently into a small, pink, hand. Then it would be thrown again and the dream would continue.
> 
> His great feet flicked with the memory of running, but instead of soft grass and fragrant earth under his paws it was the cold, feces caked wire on the bottom of his cage.
> 
> ...



If Chase is a golden retriever, you might not want to describe him in such muscular details. He probably doesn't think of his muscles being particularly big or impressive, and describing him like that actually puts a totally different image in a reader's head. He seemed more like a large, powerful dog--more like Shotgun. "Big muscles" is a relative term. I have a 150lb Rottie mix, so I'm not going to think of a retriever having big, impressive muscles. A chihuahua owner probably looks at most other dogs as pretty impressive. And Chase probably doesn't think of himself as impressive, nor is he being immediately propped up and foreshadowed here to be some powerful, butt-kicking dog. He's a bait dog. And a family-friendly retriever. It's fine to do some "telling", but drawing attention to his strength might be counterproductive in the narrative sense and set up reader expectations at odds with the "truth" of your narrative (because the readers are all going to picture him differently based on your descriptions and he can't necessarily correct our misunderstanding). 

Mostly though, the typos got me. There are quite a number of missing spaces between words and/or punctuation. There are also some missing commas. 

Good job setting up a very ambitious POV.


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## EmmaSohan (Jul 10, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> Too little sensory detail makes the story feels like "Talking Heads Syndrome". The reader has nothing to go on when picturing the scene, and by the time you start adding what the reader should see, it's going to be incongruous with the reader has begun picturing (and will therefore be jarring).
> 
> While I'm all for slower worldbuilding coming through in smaller doses as needed, setting a scene is different from just infodumping. It seems like you've swung so far away from infodumping and overwhelming the reader with unnecessary detail that you've given us Talking Heads Floating in Space instead.



Thanks. It's hard for me to get a perspective on my story, so you might be right. Ignoring the faults in my start, I wonder if you are asking a start to do more than is possible.

Right, I have been frustrated by going pages without knowing if the focal character is male or female. But it's impossible to get enough detail for a reader to imagine a person. What color shirt? What style shirt? How long of nose? What is the person doing, just standing there? So we give a few details and expect the reader to fill in the rest? Or leave them blank?

Right, there is no reason for the reader to care about the characters at the start, or actually understand the situation. I have an example of a good author ruining a wonderful scene by moving it to the front of her book. To me, it's impossible for action at the start to be as good as action in the middle of the book.

But starting with life-as-normal has it's own dangers, and it's not used that often. Or, that's what I did, with this opening as the engine that gets the reader through the life-as-normal part.

If you take your points far enough, you could end up with setting as a start. That's a natural way to tell a story, but not very common nowadays. And it ends up being setting that I don't know how to appreciate, because there is no context -- so it has the problem it's trying to avoid.

[/QUOTE]


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## seigfried007 (Jul 10, 2019)

Yup to all of that. There's a lot of tightrope-walking in the beginning. There's no way to ge the reader to understand *exactly* what we're seeing in a scene--but that's part of the magic of reading. 

Key to detail is giving just enough detail that it's not jarring or overwhelming--and this is going to be different for every reader. There are some readers who just have to know the eye/hair/skin color, the age/race/sex/occupation/hair style/clothing brands of everyone. For some stories or characters, some of these details might be important, and for others, such details are superfluous. Ideally, set up details as they're important to introduce a character and refine said character's traits. It's kind of like Chekov's Gun lite--a detail mentioned should serve some purpose and tell the reader something. Key to not overwhelming readers is to use the details which set the most scenery with the fewest words. Sometimes more is just more, as opposed to better (and 'less is more' isn't always the case either). 

You can still get hooks in 'normal life'. Lots of fantasy stories with YA protagonists start off with normal life (even if someone generally dies at the end of the first chapter when the village is raided by orcs). Lots of different kinds of hooks and action. But in order to feel this "middle scene" with max emotional impact, the reader just has to get to know these two and how much they and this relationship really mean to each other. You might try a prologue to set up the fantastic elements and get a good hook in before setting up the normal life which is soon to be disrupted, especially if the magic is an element which might not be present on page one without that prologue.


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## Terry D (Jul 10, 2019)

JohnCalliganWrites said:


> It seems like you hit a lot of good marketing points:
> 
> Gimmick: told from a dog's perspective
> Taboo: mistreated animals
> ...



Thanks for the feedback. One thing to keep in mind is we are talking about the first five paragraphs of a 200,000 word novel, so I didn't feel need to cram all of Chase's backstory into the book's opening. there's time for that to develop. I am interested here in creating a mood and setting a tone. I'm glad you like Shotgun, I do too, but the reader will soon start to relate to, and empathize with, Chase. Being a bait-dog for trained fighters doesn't give Chase much reason, or opportunity, to "have a moment" with the other dogs. All those moments are bad ones for Chase.



waterborne said:


> This feels like you are trying to show off your rhetorical ability at the expense of the story. I don't like it and I wish you would set everything up more.



If, by "showing off your rhetorical ability", you mean I was trying to establish a mood and create a specific atmosphere for my book's opening, then I need to plead guilty. But, isn't that what we are supposed to do as writers? Again, this is just part of the opening scene of a very long book. I'm not sure what more setting-up I could do in such a small space; I've already introduced a setting which will be significant, one of the book's primary protagonists (along with a bit of his backstory) and both primary antagonists. 



seigfried007 said:


> If Chase is a golden retriever, you might not want to describe him in such muscular details. He probably doesn't think of his muscles being particularly big or impressive, and describing him like that actually puts a totally different image in a reader's head. He seemed more like a large, powerful dog--more like Shotgun. "Big muscles" is a relative term. I have a 150lb Rottie mix, so I'm not going to think of a retriever having big, impressive muscles. A chihuahua owner probably looks at most other dogs as pretty impressive. And Chase probably doesn't think of himself as impressive, nor is he being immediately propped up and foreshadowed here to be some powerful, butt-kicking dog. He's a bait dog. And a family-friendly retriever. It's fine to do some "telling", but drawing attention to his strength might be counterproductive in the narrative sense and set up reader expectations at odds with the "truth" of your narrative (because the readers are all going to picture him differently based on your descriptions and he can't necessarily correct our misunderstanding).
> 
> Mostly though, the typos got me. There are quite a number of missing spaces between words and/or punctuation. There are also some missing commas.
> 
> Good job setting up a very ambitious POV.



I guess I could have said his quadriceps were twitching, but that would be a bit clumsy when writing from the dog's POV, so I chose 'big muscles in his legs'. The big muscles in a golden's legs are the same muscles that are the big ones in a rottie's legs, or even a chihuahua's. I never described Chase as 'impressive' and certainly didn't suggest that he thought of himself that way. Golden retrievers are large dogs -- in fact the golden who inspired, Chase was 30" at the shoulder and weighed more than 130 lbs. I didn't intend to present Chase as some "butt-kicking dog", he was a frightened and tortured dog who has been ripped from his home and dropped into a hellish situation. You seem to be reading things into this brief description that aren't there. That's okay, though, it is impossible to get a true picture of a character from a partial scene.

In defense of goldens, however, I will say this, the the real-life Chase, like most of his breed was a very affable and gentle dog, but I saw him get between my wife and a trio of feral Labradors one day when she walked down to the road to pick up our mail. The labs came up out of a ditch alongside the road barking and snapping. Chase got in front of my wife while she retreated and would not let the other dogs pass. For those few moments he was a very impressive dog.

Some of those typos happened on import. I'm not sure why that happens. And, since this excerpt came from an early draft of my novel, the missing commas, and some other punctuation errors, came along for the ride


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## Olly Buckle (Jul 10, 2019)

There seems to be a fair bit of "I always start by…" and "It's good to get in certain things like...", but I can't help looking at the thread title and thinking "How about something like "The clocks were striking thirteen..." ?  Now there is a novel opening, nobody ever used that before !


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## seigfried007 (Jul 10, 2019)

Terry D said:


> Thanks for the feedback. One thing to keep in mind is we are talking about the first five paragraphs of a 200,000 word novel, so I didn't feel need to cram all of Chase's backstory into the book's opening. there's time for that to develop. I am interested here in creating a mood and setting a tone. I'm glad you like Shotgun, I do too, but the reader will soon start to relate to, and empathize with, Chase. Being a bait-dog for trained fighters doesn't give Chase much reason, or opportunity, to "have a moment" with the other dogs. All those moments are bad ones for Chase.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ah, so the confusion is how "big" describes the muscles. Arnold Schwarzenegger has "big muscles". Thus, it sounds more impressive than you're meaning it to when Chase's "big muscles" are twitching. Do you see why I was confused by what you wrote? 

In this case, I don't think "big" is a necessary descriptor for the muscles. The reader won't care that the bigger muscles are twitching (as opposed to the smaller muscles in the leg) because the real goal of the description is focusing on his psychological torment (if I'm reading you right), which is implied partially by this involuntary muscular spasm ("twitch"). Alternatively, if the quadriceps simply have to be mentioned as twitching, you might use "the bigger muscles in his legs" or "the top/front muscles of his legs" because "big muscles" is easily misinterpreted (particularly as the reader is straining in the first paragraphs to get a good image of the character as a whole). 

I'm quite aware that retrievers can be protective. Used to work in animal control. While they can be big and even have "big muscles" relative to other dogs, the average retriever isn't a terribly muscular dog and tends to be sleeker and even fluffier/softer in form rather than bulky. Thus, when I read "big muscles" I wasn't thinking of retrievers, but instead of breeds of dogs which tend to have "big muscles". Pitbulls, Staffies, bull terriers, mastiffs, Rotties--short-haired dogs with bulkier, heavier physiques. While long-haired dogs also have "big muscles" they're so clouded by fluff that those muscles are harder to see and so less likely to be noticed over the overall bulk/fluff/inferred size of the dog. We've all experienced discussions, no doubt, on just how fluffy/fat/muscular a given fur-intensive dog actually is--precisely because fluff obscures form. Is that a skinny person in a really puffy coat or a fat person in a windbreaker?

And because "big muscles" was most of what I had to go on to refine my image of Chase, that's what took over, so those are the types of dogs I was picturing. While there's nothing wrong with him being a Golden, you might want to add a couple more details to pad out that image very early in the narrative. What easily separates a Golden from those above-mentioned breeds is 1) color, 2) hair length & texture, 3) floppy ears. If you just define one or two of those things, the reader may still picture a dog which is totally different, and this might jar the reader when the breed is actually revealed later. Defining any of them will help though. Floppy ears are less a concern unless people read the dog as a Husky (another similarly sized, fluffy dog with "big muscles").

I'm also not sure why he has to be a Golden as opposed to a breed of the reader's choosing. People still argue about Ole Yeller. Didn't matter what breed he actually was, just that he was a really good dog (and very well written). Golden people and Australian shepherd people continue to rage over which breed he was--and all it does is increase readership. Breed ambiguity can be a very good thing for readership. Plus, mutts also have their own lovability. Unless he's going to compete for Best In Show, it might be better to leave him ambiguous.

Letting the reader determine breed and some characteristics might be a good way of getting the reader more involved (so the reader can picture him however they feel like and get even more attached to him). This would be sort of the dog equivalent of "Bella Swan" not being described so that readers could more easily picture her however they felt like/see themselves in her place. Leaving more details out than in could have the effect of readers sticking their favorite dog in Chase's place, and that might heighten readership and reader involvement. It's just an odd little thought.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 10, 2019)

Olly Buckle said:


> There seems to be a fair bit of "I always start by…" and "It's good to get in certain things like...", but I can't help looking at the thread title and thinking "How about something like "The clocks were striking thirteen..." ?  Now there is a novel opening, nobody ever used that before !



Back to hooks in the scenery!

Do love the beginning of that novel (loe the whole dang novel, who am I kidding?). Of course, with it, the novel is mostly about the setting--the conflicts all arise because of the setting, this conglomeration of world/politics/nationality that the small character experiences but is ultimately unable to overcome. 

I also love War of the Worlds' opening. It sets up such menace and portent. Kind of a similar situation to 1984 there too because the beginning focuses on the Martians, the smallness and irrelevancy of man in the face of such overwhelming might. And just like we are seen dismissing the multitudes of microscopic creatures in that beginning paragraph (despite the disease and death they can cause us), the Martians had the same fatal flaw.


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## Terry D (Jul 10, 2019)

Chase is a golden because I wanted to write a story with a golden as a protagonist. Leaving the breed to the reader's imagination wouldn't really fit with my vision for the book, and I doubt it would make much difference to readers. As the book progresses readers learn a lot more about Chase. It's not necessary to dump all that into the opening paragraphs. The opening is the 'hook', not a sales brochure for a dog breed.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 10, 2019)

> Our job as writers is to make readers dream, to infiltrate their minds with our words and create a new reality; a reality not theirs, and* not ours*, but a *new, unique combination of both*.




I don't care if you have him as a Golden. It's your book. Do what you want with it. I was just being nice by spending hours reading all of the previous posts and trying to give you the best, most accurate, most helpful, most sincere, most detailed feedback that I possibly could in the hopes that you might possibly improve the likelihood of your reader picking up on _your intended vision_--and bringing up a handy outside-the-box alternative, if it proved too difficult to get it _just right_ with every reader. You're never going to get the reader to see _exactly_ what you see, and you already know this. So I posited two solutions: 

1) make the dog purposefully vague so the reader can stick whatever details they want in it, or 

2) make sure that you add a few key details to prime your reader for greater revelations later. Just a couple hints; that's all it takes. It's not an infodump or a breed brochure if, in his torment, while huddling in the farthest reach of his cage, he sticks his shaggy golden tail between his legs or laments the feces which have dried like scabs in the long, soft, blonde coat of his belly. Maybe he fondly remembers someone brushing him out to keep mats from forming, and this heightens that feeling of loss. Goldens can be a high maintenance breed when it comes to keeping those flowing locks in good condition, after all. Those sorts of details enhance his characterization and vastly improve the likelihood of someone picking up on your intended vision for the dog. 

Here's a handy third option: *stick a Golden on the book cover* because the reader will automatically assume the dog on the cover is Chase. This is the easiest option, since you not only have a _specific_ breed in mind but also a _specific _and _very unusual_ dog from your past in mind.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 10, 2019)

I was wondering why only two authors have posted novel openings here, and I think it might get more use if it was moved to the Workshop area where more people are actively seeking critique for openings. since so many writers are worried about first rights, maybe that's why only two people have posted here?

Unless posting the novel openings here is more just to illuminate the fine craft of making novel openings rather than critique specifically?


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## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord (Jul 10, 2019)

I think it's supposed to be more a craft discussion. I  like an opening that attaches you to the main characters emotionally and provides some physical grounding (appearance of setting and characters), so that your imagination knows where to begin.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 10, 2019)

Speaking of novel openings generally, this has been a pretty neat thread and really has gotten me thinking. Like everyone else, I've heard a lot of advice, but I'm not sure how much of it's totally relevant to someone who's _paid _for the book. Someone who's paid for it is a lot more likely to read it. By contrast, I have books gifted to me that I have never read (and haven't even been tempted to). Kinda like we've all watched things for free that we wouldn't have paid for, and we've all turned off programming we didn't pay specifically for... but very few times have most of us walked out of a theater after shelling $60 to treat ourselves and friends/family to see something in 3D IMAX. Bigger the investment, the more sticking power the media has generally.  

It's always great to grab a reader on that first half a page--earlier the better--but some genres have different tacts and allowances, each reader has a different expectation and attention span, and an agent, publisher or critiquing party will probably have even more stringent expectations than the average reader (and especially than one who just shelled out some money). 

This might be part of why we as authors tend to be so rough on openings--we're all busy and none of us would pay to beta read each other. 

There's a lot of talk about "hooks" and "inciting incidents", but as the 1984 and War of the Worlds openings have already illustrated, a novel opening doesn't have to be action-packed or chock full of dialogue to have a good hook. We don't have to begin with people shooting each other, or controversial scenes (like animal abuse), or a character's death to pull a reader in. The openings I've loved and remembered best haven't had those things,. 

I do remember Redliners by David Drake starting out with tremendous action and battle sequences, people getting blown up everywhere... action packed and violent certainly, but I didn't know what was going on, have time to really think about what was going on, or even care about what was going on. Wound up glossing over the whole first chapter and digging into the second one (where we got to know a lot more about the characters and the predicaments they faced). 

Perhaps the most important thing to get out in the first bit is setting up the theme, genre and style of the book. However, a good cover design and blurb can really help here, so maybe less emphasis can afford to be placed here than some might say.


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## Aquilo (Jul 11, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> Perhaps the most important thing to get out in the first bit is setting up the theme, genre and style of the book. However, a good cover design and blurb can really help here, so maybe less emphasis can afford to be placed here than some might say.



I'm a complete cover whore. And it's usually the only thing that will get me to pick up a novel by a new-to-me author. If I can see they've spent time on a damn good cover, then I know there's a good chance they've taken the same care and attention with their story. Yet with my favorite authors I'd sacrifice sheep to have some of their talent, they could print on toilet roll packaging, and I'd still buy it. 

As for openings, I need to be put in the scene immediately, literally lens-style prose, with vivid and in-your-face imagery. I'm tough as a reader, and if I don't get what I usually like in a paragraph or two, I'll DNF. So I try and make sure my own are crisp are clear.


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## JustRob (Jul 11, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> Speaking of novel openings generally, this has been a pretty neat thread and really has gotten me thinking. Like everyone else, I've heard a lot of advice, but I'm not sure how much of it's totally relevant to someone who's _paid _for the book. Someone who's paid for it is a lot more likely to read it. By contrast, I have books gifted to me that I have never read (and haven't even been tempted to). Kinda like we've all watched things for free that we wouldn't have paid for, and we've all turned off programming we didn't pay specifically for... but very few times have most of us walked out of a theater after shelling $60 to treat ourselves and friends/family to see something in 3D IMAX. Bigger the investment, the more sticking power the media has generally.



Do people actually pay to read books? Good heavens! But seriously I see your point. On that subject I tackled what could be considered the opposite by adding an extra chapter after the end of the story in an unfinished novel of mine. The real last chapter was followed by a statement that there was absolutely no need to read the one that followed as it didn't relate to that story although it was placed in the same setting. The point was that my series of stories revolved around the nature of free will and at that point I challenged the reader to exert their own free will in deciding whether to read the extra chapter or not. As you observe, someone who has paid for the book feels obliged to read it, so would that still apply to an extra chapter at the end? If they read it out of curiosity would that really be an act of free will or simply a reaction much like scratching an itch? Had they learned anything at all about free will from reading my stories?

When the James Bond film _The Living Daylights _was released my angel and I went to see it at at our local multiplex cinema. It was showing in a theatre where a new advanced Dolby sound system had been installed and after just a few minutes we both had aching ears and walked out. The staff offered us a refund or the option to view it at a slightly later time in a theatre with a standard sound system, but we had already decided that cinema technology had gone too far for us and immediately went and bought a bluray player to use at home as the cost of our cinema seats was actually more than the cost of a bluray DVD. We haven't been to a cinema since then and we eventually watched _The Living Daylights_ some time later for free on TV with a volume control close at hand. Ah, the luxury of that. Of course we now have a 3D TV and bluray player as well, so we aren't exactly missing anything by not going to a 3D IMAX. 

Personally I write for readers who want to experience their own discovery in their reading and are prepared to put some effort into that. People who can't do that or choose not to probably should go to a 3D IMAX to have ready-made imagery injected forcibly into their minds.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 11, 2019)

JustRob said:


> Do people actually pay to read books? Good heavens! But seriously I see your point. On that subject I tackled what could be considered the opposite by adding an extra chapter after the end of the story in an unfinished novel of mine. The real last chapter was followed by a statement that there was absolutely no need to read the one that followed as it didn't relate to that story although it was placed in the same setting. The point was that my series of stories revolved around the nature of free will and at that point I challenged the reader to exert their own free will in deciding whether to read the extra chapter or not. As you observe, someone who has paid for the book feels obliged to read it, so would that still apply to an extra chapter at the end? If they read it out of curiosity would that really be an act of free will or simply a reaction much like scratching an itch? Had they learned anything at all about free will from reading my stories?
> 
> When the James Bond film _The Living Daylights _was released my angel and I went to see it at at our local multiplex cinema. It was showing in a theatre where a new advanced Dolby sound system had been installed and after just a few minutes we both had aching ears and walked out. The staff offered us a refund or the option to view it at a slightly later time in a theatre with a standard sound system, but we had already decided that cinema technology had gone too far for us and immediately went and bought a bluray player to use at home as the cost of our cinema seats was actually more than the cost of a bluray DVD. We haven't been to a cinema since then and we eventually watched _The Living Daylights_ some time later for free on TV with a volume control close at hand. Ah, the luxury of that. Of course we now have a 3D TV and bluray player as well, so we aren't exactly missing anything by not going to a 3D IMAX.
> 
> Personally I write for readers who want to experience their own discovery in their reading and are prepared to put some effort into that. People who can't do that or choose not to probably should go to a 3D IMAX to have ready-made imagery injected forcibly into their minds.



I had a similar issue with the Hobbit movies and their excessive frame rate. Of course, 3D gives me a headache anyway because, while it's 3D if you're staring at the middle of the screen, it's wonky when the focus of the frame is actually not in the center at all. I like to look around anyway.

Regarding free will, have you seen Black Mirror: Bandersnatch? It's a fascinating concept on audience and free will, I think (haven't seen it because my tablet doesn't support it). 

I would hazard that they've already exercised free will by finishing the book. You gave them a book they finished, so, if they liked it, they're more likely to sit through another episode, but they've already finished, in a way, what they've paid for. The chapter at the end is just a teaser trailer for the next, unrelated story--like a preview attached to the beginning of the movie, except it's tacked onto the end.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 11, 2019)

Aquilo said:


> I'm a complete cover whore. And it's usually the only thing that will get me to pick up a novel by a new-to-me author. If I can see they've spent time on a damn good cover, then I know there's a good chance they've taken the same care and attention with their story. Yet with my favorite authors I'd sacrifice sheep to have some of their talent, they could print on toilet roll packaging, and I'd still buy it.
> 
> As for openings, I need to be put in the scene immediately, literally lens-style prose, with vivid and in-your-face imagery. I'm tough as a reader, and if I don't get what I usually like in a paragraph or two, I'll DNF. So I try and make sure my own are crisp are clear.



I'm intimidated by covers and don't want to pay for them because I'm poor. I'm also too passive and really want someone else who really knows what they're doing to handle it for me. 

The scene-setting readers are often like that, from what I've seen. There's a different amount of detail some are willing to make up. I've seen some that had to have ever single detail stuck in because, I guess, they just couldn't imagine anything on their own. 

I've come to the conclusion that there are some things I'm willing to let the readers make up. For instance, I've got a POV who doesn't have any description beyond being adult male. He's probably handsome, most likely in his twenties, and probably around a normal height because he never thinks of himself as tall or short. I'll let the readers figure out what he looks like for them. Other characters get more description. Unless I'm setting a weird scene or weird character, I'm not as likely to shove a lot of description in it. Some of that, however, depends on the POV and perspective though.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 11, 2019)

When posting openings here, should one post prologues and such? Or skip directly to the first part of the first chapter? Not all readers even read prologues. 

I wrote the epilogue (of sorts) first.



Also, here's a nice video on prologues generally:
[video=youtube;Qv9qcTbwAiw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv9qcTbwAiw&amp;t=1006s[/video]


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## Terry D (Jul 11, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> I don't care if you have him as a Golden. It's your book. Do what you want with it. I was just being nice by spending hours reading all of the previous posts and trying to give you the best, most accurate, most helpful, most sincere, most detailed feedback that I possibly could in the hopes that you might possibly improve the likelihood of your reader picking up on _your intended vision_--and bringing up a handy outside-the-box alternative, if it proved too difficult to get it _just right_ with every reader. You're never going to get the reader to see _exactly_ what you see, and you already know this. So I posited two solutions:
> 
> 1) make the dog purposefully vague so the reader can stick whatever details they want in it, or
> 
> ...



This thread isn't in the Workshop because this isn't a work-in-progress and I'm not looking for ways to improve it. The excerpt I posted was intended to kick off a conversation about our different methods of opening a novel. It's easy to find gaps and things which seem inconsistent, or incomplete in the first five paragraphs of any book. The opening to 1984 generates far more questions than it answers, but it is supposed to. All good openings do that. That's what keeps people reading. It doesn't make much sense to worry about how I depict a golden retriever at this point in the book because nowhere in the opening do I tell the reader that Chase is a golden. It's not important to establishing the tone and mood. 

About your cover suggestion; again you are worrying overmuch about the reader's impression of the dog's breed. The title of the book is actually a play on words. While Chase (the dog) is a main character in the book, he's not the only 'chase' in the story, so putting a golden on the cover would be somewhat misleading. Perhaps the back-cover blurb will make it a bit more clear:

_Time is running out…

Time is running out for Ricky Deets. He is broke. He is desperate, and he owes a madman ten-thousand dollars.

Time is running out for Gabriel Ryder. Kidnapped and in the hands of a serial killer, Gabriel must somehow endure against the brutal backdrop of high stakes dog-fighting.

Time is running out for Noah Kreider. As Special Agent in Charge of the FBI’s Child Abduction Rapid Deployment team in St. Louis, Kreider knows what will happen to the boy if his team can’t find him in time.

Time is running out for Dalton Thorn. Known to the FBI as Jolly Roger, Thorn has been in hiding since slaughtering four families in his twisted quest to find a special boy; a boy who has now been delivered to him. But the FBI has picked up his scent, and an old nemesis is on the case.

Time is running out for Chase. Ripped away from his home and locked in a foul steel cage after saving a family from Jolly Roger, the tormented beast has found a friend, and is facing a final, bloody test.

While Kreider and his C.A.R.D. team race frantically to find the stolen boy, Gabriel and Chase must find within themselves, and within each other, the hidden reserves of strength and resourcefulness they will need to survive, and to escape the plans of a killer. But even escape into the rugged wilderness of the Ozark Mountains will not be enough to stop the terror.

The Chase is on…
_


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## Terry D (Jul 11, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> When posting openings here, should one post prologues and such? Or skip directly to the first part of the first chapter? Not all readers even read prologues.
> 
> I wrote the epilogue (of sorts) first.
> 
> ...



Prologues get a bad rap because they are often misused. If they can be skipped without hurting the story they shouldn't be written.


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## midnightpoet (Jul 11, 2019)

When I wrote my first novel some 20 years ago, I used a prologue.  It wasn't the only reason the story didn't get published, but since then I've learned a lot and now I just go with chapter one. As a mystery/crime writer, I started out with action scenes, but learned they aren't necessarily necessary, as the ones without them actually got published (they were short stories, but still).  Looking back, not all of Hammett's or Chandler's work started with action (no gunfights, dead people or other violence).  James Lee Burke's novels often start with weather ,like a storm coming off the gulf, but it sets the scene well.   So much depends on not only the author's skill, but the reader's preferences.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 11, 2019)

Terry D said:


> Prologues get a bad rap because they are often misused. If they can be skipped without hurting the story they shouldn't be written.



Ah, but you can't know if it's going to hurt the story or help it without reading it. Sure, a reader might understand the story without reading the prologue, but since they can only read it the first time once... the same person can't tell you what it might have been like experiencing it for the first time the other way around. 

It's possibly why I always read the prologue anyway. I paid for it, so I might as well read it (I also read forewords, appendices, other stuff as needed or if they're interesting--but I rarely check author bios because they never really add to the story or even tell neat facts about the person). I know people who never read prologues, too. There's nothing wrong with either approach. It's a would/shoulda/coulda kinda thing. You can't know you've wasted your time reading it until you're done, and you can't know you should have read something until you're lost without it. Some are there for lore dumps; others to provide emotional nuance, direct the theme, provide a short-lived foil or alternate perspective, illuminate a potential hazard for other characters--or even all of the above. 

In general, I don't think most prologues are needed.


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## luckyscars (Jul 11, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> Ah, but you can't know if it's going to hurt the story or help it without reading it. Sure, a reader might understand the story without reading the prologue, but since they can only read it the first time once... the same person can't tell you what it might have been like experiencing it for the first time the other way around.
> 
> It's possibly why I always read the prologue anyway. I paid for it, so I might as well read it (I also read forewords, appendices, other stuff as needed or if they're interesting--but I rarely check author bios because they never really add to the story or even tell neat facts about the person). I know people who never read prologues, too. There's nothing wrong with either approach. It's a would/shoulda/coulda kinda thing. You can't know you've wasted your time reading it until you're done, and you can't know you should have read something until you're lost without it. Some are there for lore dumps; others to provide emotional nuance, direct the theme, provide a short-lived foil or alternate perspective, illuminate a potential hazard for other characters--or even all of the above.
> 
> In general, I don't think most prologues are needed.



No, a prologue is always needed. If not, as Terry said, they should not be there and if they are that’s evidence of bad execution. Every chapter, hell, every sentence and word should move the story. This is why so many first time novels are far too long and slow. 

One of my biggest lessons (and the wisdom behind “kill your darlings”) is having the willpower to cut things that are well written or even quite interesting but don’t move the story. It’s about honing in on storytelling as a distinct skill from writing. Plenty of good writers are bad storytellers - and vice versa.

Bottom line: The rules of writing as it relates to moving a story don’t suddenly change because something is labeled as prologue as opposed to chapter. 

As as far as novel openings, I gave my thoughts on “Chase” earlier. I then went and bought and read the full book so I feel qualified to speak to it. I personally felt it to be a slow burning story (personal taste) but certainly captivating and the introduction of character including and beyond what Terry posted here is about as good as it gets in this genre. The “vagueness” for me is not a problem because, well, it’s an opening and what you call vague to me was simply a gentle reveal/emergence into story. Which is how most good books open IMO. A lot of writers could learn from it. Self included.


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## Terry D (Jul 11, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> Ah, but you can't know if it's going to hurt the story or help it without reading it. Sure, a reader might understand the story without reading the prologue, but since they can only read it the first time once... the same person can't tell you what it might have been like experiencing it for the first time the other way around.
> 
> It's possibly why I always read the prologue anyway. I paid for it, so I might as well read it (I also read forewords, appendices, other stuff as needed or if they're interesting--but I rarely check author bios because they never really add to the story or even tell neat facts about the person). I know people who never read prologues, too. There's nothing wrong with either approach. It's a would/shoulda/coulda kinda thing. You can't know you've wasted your time reading it until you're done, and you can't know you should have read something until you're lost without it. Some are there for lore dumps; others to provide emotional nuance, direct the theme, provide a short-lived foil or alternate perspective, illuminate a potential hazard for other characters--or even all of the above.
> 
> In general, I don't think most prologues are needed.



Aren't we talking about _writing_ the book in this thread? Readers are going to do what they are going to do. Many readers skip large sections of narration, or description too. We can't control that other than to try and craft those parts of the book in a way which will make the reader want to read them. But, in the end, that's a reader's choice, not the author's. So my point stands, if a prologue isn't essential to the story then it shouldn't be included. Perhaps it should be written if the writer needs it themself to get the story flowing -- many writers start a book well ahead of what will end up being chapter one just get the flow going then they will discard that preliminary piece in subsequent drafts -- but if it doesn't contribute to the story, then including it is just an author ego-trip.

I read prologues too, because I go into every book giving the author credit for knowing his job and, therefore, expecting the prologue to provide me with information relevant to the subsequent story. Prologues used to give background, world build, or dump information are lazy writing. All that stuff should be done in the course of telling the tale. In my first novel I used a prologue to introduce a character who would be essential to the story's ultimate resolution. I opened with him because I didn't want his appearance much later in the book to appear like a _dues ex machina_. I wanted him in the back of the reader's mind. I also included a very brief scene with him later in the book, but well before his critical appearance. Looking back, I probably could have included my prologue as part of chapter one and avoided the stigma associated with the term. But it truly was separate and essential.

Readers have lots of choices regarding their time. Distractions are everywhere and reader attention spans can be short. So, when I write the opening to a novel I may not start out with blazing guns and Apache helicopters, but I also won't waste my reader's time by giving them a history lesson, or a languid description of terrain and weather. Readers want the story to start. They want to know why they should read the next sentence, the next scene, the next page. If you don't give them that, you will lose them.


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## Terry D (Jul 11, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> No, a prologue is always needed. If not, as Terry said, they should not be there and if they are that’s evidence of bad execution. Every chapter, hell, every sentence and word should move the story. This is why so many first time novels are far too long and slow.
> 
> One of my biggest lessons (and the wisdom behind “kill your darlings”) is having the willpower to cut things that are well written or even quite interesting but don’t move the story. It’s about honing in on storytelling as a distinct skill from writing. Plenty of good writers are bad storytellers - and vice versa.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the good words, Lucky. I hope you enjoyed the book. Were I to write Chase today, I would probably pare it down some to avoid that "slow burn". It was my second novel and there are lessons I'm still learning from it.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 11, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> No, a prologue is always needed. If not, as Terry said, they should not be there and if they are that’s evidence of bad execution. Every chapter, hell, every sentence and word should move the story. This is why so many first time novels are far too long and slow.
> 
> One of my biggest lessons (and the wisdom behind “kill your darlings”) is having the willpower to cut things that are well written or even quite interesting but don’t move the story. It’s about honing in on storytelling as a distinct skill from writing. Plenty of good writers are bad storytellers - and vice versa.
> 
> ...



I'm fine with slow burns. I've written slow burns. I don't need constant action and stimulation. I'm okay smelling the roses sometimes. 

"Vagueness" is a problem when the author needs the reader to see something a certain way by a certain time in the narrative. I brought up the incongruity between my internal vision of Chase and Terry's in case it was necessary for me to view Chase as a Golden by the end of that opening. The longer an author waits to add description, the more likely the reader is to have an incongruous view, and therefore, the more jarring it will be for the reader when the author finally decides to fill the reader in on what they were supposed to be seeing the whole time. If the reader absolutely has to see the author's exact vision for something, that author has no right to complain when readers don't see it because he or she only has him/herself to blame because it was his/her own inattention to the craft that led to that misunderstanding. I'm fine with intentional vagueness. I've played it to great effect even. But I'm not going to get my proverbial panties in a knot if someone doesn't see my exact vision for a story element (if it's necessary however for some aspect to get across and it doesn't, it's still my fault and not the reader's... unless the reader just isn't paying attention or is skipping parts, but even then, I could still look into tightening things up to keep attention or otherwise work to draw attention to this necessary aspect).   



Terry D said:


> Aren't we talking about _writing_ the book in this thread? Readers are going to do what they are going to do. Many readers skip large sections of narration, or description too. We can't control that other than to try and craft those parts of the book in a way which will make the reader want to read them. But, in the end, that's a reader's choice, not the author's. So my point stands, if a prologue isn't essential to the story then it shouldn't be included. Perhaps it should be written if the writer needs it themself to get the story flowing -- many writers start a book well ahead of what will end up being chapter one just get the flow going then they will discard that preliminary piece in subsequent drafts -- but if it doesn't contribute to the story, then including it is just an author ego-trip.
> 
> I read prologues too, because I go into every book giving the author credit for knowing his job and, therefore, expecting the prologue to provide me with information relevant to the subsequent story. Prologues used to give background, world build, or dump information are lazy writing. All that stuff should be done in the course of telling the tale. In my first novel I used a prologue to introduce a character who would be essential to the story's ultimate resolution. I opened with him because I didn't want his appearance much later in the book to appear like a _dues ex machina_. I wanted him in the back of the reader's mind. I also included a very brief scene with him later in the book, but well before his critical appearance. Looking back, I probably could have included my prologue as part of chapter one and avoided the stigma associated with the term. But it truly was separate and essential.
> 
> Readers have lots of choices regarding their time. Distractions are everywhere and reader attention spans can be short. So, when I write the opening to a novel I may not start out with blazing guns and Apache helicopters, but I also won't waste my reader's time by giving them a history lesson, or a languid description of terrain and weather. Readers want the story to start. They want to know why they should read the next sentence, the next scene, the next page. If you don't give them that, you will lose them.



My point that "most prologues aren't needed" isn't to say we should write things that aren't needed but rather, that most prologues I've read didn't meet the standards for "needed". Not all prologues out there are required to understand the story, so they probably shouldn't have been written or left in. World's chock full of bad prologues, just like it's chock full of bad books and bad authors.  Also, nobody here has the same idea of what constitutes "needed" even, it seems. 

Yup, we're here about _writing_, but a writer is writing for _readers_. If we just wanted a nice story, we could tell ourselves our own dang stories. We're in this to tell stories to other people, and that means effectively communicating via print and understanding what will grab and hold the reader. Not all readers are the same, so what works for one won't work for another. 

Some readers need the scenery--especially if that scenery is integral to understanding the story. 1984 needed scenery. The farther something is from the assumed normal, shared human experience of daily living, the more effort we'll need to spend describing it so the reader can understand what's going on. Not all scenery is languid and breathless. Sometimes it's best to set up the weather--especially if it's raining fire and blood, and everyone's running for cover. Weather can be so important that it has its own genre of natural disaster stories. Man vs Nature is a classic plot. Weather can also set a tone and provide foreshadowing. It's got its uses and place. But, if someone's going to use some good ole Man vs Nature action, it's best to foreshadow this early and totally understandable if said weather/terrain feature is fine and lovely in the beginning (and just gets worse and worse as the story ramps up). The moon should probably be alluded to early in the werewolf thriller. The weather might even directly play into the conflict--such as if that dark and stormy night was picked for a murder to cover up the screaming/shot. 

Stories that don't have a huge emphasis on scenery, setting, and weather shouldn't waste valuable real estate in the opening setting such scenes. Words shouldn't be wasted on things that aren't needed--be it weather or otherwise.  

I am guilty of skipping Tolkien's seemingly endless chunk of description. Was so sick of Elves so quickly in LOTR. I guess if they've got hundreds of years to waste, they can afford to read and write that kind of lore... but as a meager human, I can't be arsed to care.


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## Terry D (Jul 11, 2019)

This



seigfried007 said:


> Yup, we're here about _writing_, but a writer is writing for _readers_. If we just wanted a nice story, we could tell ourselves our own dang stories. We're in this to tell stories to other people, and that means effectively communicating via print and understanding what will grab and hold the reader. Not all readers are the same, so what works for one won't work for another.



Doesn't seem to jibe with this



> Ah, but you can't know if it's going to hurt the story or help it without reading it.




As writers we better damned well know if it's going to help or hurt the story.


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## Olly Buckle (Jul 11, 2019)

You guys write to be read, but there are all sorts of writers, I have plenty of stuff I have never shared, and not all of it because it is no good.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 11, 2019)

Terry D said:


> This
> Doesn't seem to jibe with this
> 
> As writers we better damned well know if it's going to help or hurt the story.



Only because you're reading it weirdly. Those comments weren't even directed at the same aspect of writing in the first place because one was plainly addressing prologues specifically and in regards to not knowing how necessary a prologue is (*in someone else's book*) until it's already been read. It's like knowing if a movie is good before you've seen it. How could anyone know how good or bad something really is if they haven't experienced it yet? 

As writers, we haven't agreed on hardly anything yet, and yet we're both published writers. What I think might help or hurt a story obviously isn't what you think, so why even use that tact with me? Writers can't agree on _anything_ anyway; it's why we discuss and argue about _everything_. 

You know what you think will help or hurt your story, but as every single person has a different set of criteria, no one's going to agree on what objectively helps or hurts the story. It's why we need test readers--to help us figure out what actually works for readers. There's no challenge in communicating with youurself--it's when you try to cross that divide and communicate with someone else that all the misunderstandings happen. Of course we're going to read our own story and pick up exactly what we've intended to put on the page. As the "big muscles" illustrated, however, not everyone is going to read the same words and get the same thing out of it. Nobody _intentionally_ hurts their own story, but we all sabotage our own stories _unintentionally_. The story could _always_ be better subjectively to _somebody_ out there. Most people don't set out to write garbage (unless in parody or protest), so of course I'm not talking about intentionally hurting our own sense of our own stories. 



Olly Buckle said:


> You guys write to be read, but there are all sorts of writers, I have plenty of stuff I have never shared, and not all of it because it is no good.



Writing for yourself can still help you learn how to craft it better. I've written a ton of flash on prompts that will never, ever get published. I view it kind of like all the weightlifting professionals do before they're in shape to compete. We're just working out, getting better, honing our craft a little bit at a time. Even if we know it's never going to be seen by anyone, it's still a valuable experience for ourselves just to write. 

I haven't had any long fiction published--lots of reasons, but foremost because I've never sent anything out for a publisher to see. For some, it was actually because I was so poor that I couldn't afford the postage. I've also received some terrible advice from professional writers (like "If you've got a 12-part novel series, and you're a first-time author, have the entire series completely written and ready to publish before you even query or you'll never be published". Without reading any of my long fic, she gave me a lot of soul-crushing advice, and I, as a very new writer and a student of hers, took it all to heart and haven't been able to put anything out since because I get into this self-destructive never-ending-editing cycle. It's just never going to be good enough). Now I'm basically back to square one because all of my older long fiction is gone. Vanished with no trace. Nobody can find any of it anywhere. So....  that's about 6 novels (one was 200k, and three were from a projected four-part science fiction series)... totally gone. As Wiley Coyote says, "Back to the old drawing board." If I write any of them again, they'll hopefully be better, but I'm a very different person than I was even 10 years ago, and certainly than I was 20 years ago when I started writing long fiction.


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## luckyscars (Jul 12, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> "Vagueness" is a problem when the author needs the reader to see something a certain way by a certain time in the narrative. I brought up the incongruity between my internal vision of Chase and Terry's in case it was necessary for me to view Chase as a Golden by the end of that opening. The longer an author waits to add description, the more likely the reader is to have an incongruous view, and therefore, the more jarring it will be for the reader when the author finally decides to fill the reader in on what they were supposed to be seeing the whole time. If the reader absolutely has to see the author's exact vision for something, that author has no right to complain when readers don't see it because he or she only has him/herself to blame because it was his/her own inattention to the craft that led to that misunderstanding. I'm fine with intentional vagueness. I've played it to great effect even. But I'm not going to get my proverbial panties in a knot if someone doesn't see my exact vision for a story element (if it's necessary however for some aspect to get across and it doesn't, it's still my fault and not the reader's... unless the reader just isn't paying attention or is skipping parts, but even then, I could still look into tightening things up to keep attention or otherwise work to draw attention to this necessary aspect).



I think you're overplaying the impact of 'incongruity' here. We are discussing novel openings: Novel openings _don't_ have to offer a fleshed-out image of who/where/what/when. They can, but they don't have to, and often description is boring. Actually, a lot of times maxing out the detail in the image in an opener can lead to an overload. Possibly an info-dump.

I think what's important in the beginning passages is to achieve three things;

(1) Voice of character
(2) Some sense of the emotional state
(3) A sense of place/time

^ None of those things require the reader to know if the dog in question is a golden retriever or a pitbull or a shih tzu. All that is needed is to know it is a dog (the voice) who is in some state of distress (emotional state) because they are trapped somewhere infested with their own shit (place).

Let's compare this with a more objective example, and one that cannot possibly be labeled as bad writing...the opening from Stephen King's The Shining:

_"Jack Torrance thought: Officious little prick. Ullman stood five-five, and when he moved, it was with the prissy speed that seems to be the exclusive domain of all small plump men. The part in his hair was exact, and his dark suit was sober but comforting. I am a man you can bring your problems to, that suit said to the paying customer. To the hired help it spoke more curtly: This had better be good, you. There was a red carnation in the lapel, perhaps so that no one on the street would mistake Stuart Ullman for the local undertaker. As he listened to Ullman speak, Jack admitted to himself that he probably could not have liked any man on that side of the desk - under the circumstances."_


In this example we get almost no detail at all. We don't know anything about Jack other than he is called Jack. We can't really see him, just like we can't perhaps really see Chase, but we DO get an immediate hit of his voice (_Jack Torrance thought: Officious little prick_) and a sense of the emotional tension in the scene (_As he listened to Ullman speak, Jack admitted to himself that he probably could not have liked any man on that side of the desk - under the circumstances_) We also get a sense of place - the mentioning of a desk and the description of Ullman's appearance clearly implies this is an office environment. 

In short, it's a strong opener, despite the fact there is very little shown and surely a decent amount of 'incongruity' as a result of that 'vagueness'.

Which leads me to my point: That story openings are ultimately about setting an _emotional _scene more than they are a physical one. Now, in reality, the physical environment must be at least hinted at, lest the whole thing becomes a mess of abstractions. But there's no way to 'jar' a reader in a couple of paragraphs simply because of a lack of clarity of the physical space or the physical beings inhabiting it. 

On the other hand, it is very easy to bore a reader. In order to avoid boring a reader there must be an immediate emotional connection between the reader and the scene. That's not just part of it, that's all of it. Terry's opener works not because it tells me a lot about the dog or where he is but because I can feel the animal's pain.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 12, 2019)

I figured I'd post the opening to a current WIP now that I've done my due diligence and at least tried to help the previous posters who were gracious enough to offer their work for dissection. I don't begin all of my stories or even all of my long fiction the same way, and this story is no exception. It's a different kind of story, so I gave it a very different beginning than most.

*********************************************************************************
*Pinocchio*

*EPILOGUE*
To love him is death. 

If someone had told me this ten years ago, I would have listened.

But, faced with his silver eyes tarnished and etching me as we stood on the pier, a streetlight making his ivory skin gleam in hues of sadness and hate, I could not pry myself away. Every fiber of me knew that he was death, that I should turn around and salvage what was left of my life. But I could not move.

To love him is death.
​*BOOK     I*

​*Welcome to December*

I woke strapped to a hospital bed, an empty IV bag hanging over me, its machine beeping to be reset, refilled. No family or friends sat vigilant near me. Curtains had been drawn over the boarded windows to my right. At first, I wondered if I was dreaming, but as I lay, just short of screaming, the door swung open slowly, and a shaft of harsh fluorescence fell over me. 

A hefty nurse, clad in sea foam scrubs and a piqued expression, pushed the door open with her backside. She turned and stared at me a moment before blinking a few times. “You’re awake, Mr. Surrey!”

“I guess so,” I said, trying to lift my head from the pillow. “Could you get these straps off me?” 

“Um, well, I’ll have to clear that with Dr. Havens,” she said as she held the door open for a smaller, scrawny nurse whose sharp nose jutted like a knife into her mask, “but I’m sure he’ll be fine with releasing you if this bug has run its course, Mr. Surrey.”

She flipped a switch on the wall, and the room was bathed in a sickly, greenish light. 

“Why am I strapped in, or can you answer that?”

“Well, you had a very high fever, Mr. Surrey, and sometimes people with high fevers aren’t themselves,” she said, sporadically making eye contact with me as she set to checking my vitals. 

The small, rat-like nurse refused to talk to me but dropped a load of linens in a chair and changed the soiled bedding under me, her face hard and skeptical, her hands cold as she refused to look at me with any more warmth than one gives a mosquito before smacking it. 

I asked if I might be able to watch the television hanging over the foot of the bed, but once again, she said that she would have to have permission cleared.

Hours later, the large nurse returned. She changed the IV bag and, before she left, turned the TV onto a round-the-clock aquarium channel.​​


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## seigfried007 (Jul 12, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> I think you're overplaying the impact of 'incongruity' here. We are discussing novel openings: Novel openings _don't_ have to offer a fleshed-out image of who/where/what/when. They can, but they don't have to, and often description is boring. Actually, a lot of times maxing out the detail in the image in an opener can lead to an overload. Possibly an info-dump.
> 
> I think what's important in the beginning passages is to achieve three things;
> 
> ...



The only reason I brought the damn dog breed up in the first place was because the author in question had already brought it up in the thread. If he felt that it was important for me to know by the end of the beginning that it's a Golden, I felt that I should let him know that I did not picture his intended dog by the end of that. I have no idea why this is so important. It's up to the author to decide if I simply have to see his specific image of this dog in that tiny amount of space. It's not a deal breaker to me if I can't see his intended vision anyway (as I've stated, I don't care about the breed). He can be as vague as fog for all I care, but if he _needs_ me to see something specific in a specific amount of time, I felt it would be nice to let him know that I didn't see it. If I don't _have_ to see a Golden in that opening, everything's fine. No more needed to be said on the subject _ever_. And the whole point is moot since he won't change the opening anyway. 

I even said the opener was good and praised his attempt at the ambitious POV. I just didn't picture the dog the same way. I told him why I didn't see the dog exactly the same way he did, too, so if he felt the need to clarify his description, he knew exactly what to target. I was being nice. I was trying to be as helpful as possible.


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## Aquilo (Jul 12, 2019)

The visual details in this are good, and I do prefer good visuals. If he's waking to a sectioning(?) for the first time, to finding he's starpped down for the first time, though, I'd maype expect a little more fear, more anger, more disorientation with where he is and what's going on. And this can come down to character voice. E.g., here:

“You’re awake, Mr. Surrey!”

“I guess so,” I said, trying to lift my head from the pillow. “Could you get these straps off me?” 

His reply of "I guess so... Could you get these off..." feels a little static. If it's his first time, I'd definitely expect to see that here: more anger, more confusion etc. But even if he's used to being in out and out of these situations, I'd love to see the dialogue and narration livened up a little to show character a little more. E.g., 

If he's used to waking there:

"You're awake, Mr. Surrey?"

Surrey. 

I bit back a snort. Nail it by plaque to the door, stick it in the phone directory, because, Christ, I owed this shit and the room, right? Although the nurse and her "Mr. Surrey" called out her virginity over "nut job" suicide watch. Sam. I was Sam to Craig, or 'needle practice in the ass' with how often he had to test that no four-point restraint policy on said ass. "You noticed,huh? Go you. Now how about you get these--" I yanked at the wrist restarints. "--the fuck off me." Shit. Good bloke. I needed to play good bloke for that. Angry nut job wouldn't get me anywhere, only locked back in Seclusion for a few hours.





seigfried007 said:


> I figured I'd post the opening to a current WIP now that I've done my due diligence and at least tried to help the previous posters who were gracious enough to offer their work for dissection. I don't begin all of my stories or even all of my long fiction the same way, and this story is no exception. It's a different kind of story, so I gave it a very different beginning than most.
> 
> *********************************************************************************
> *Pinocchio*
> ...


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## Terry D (Jul 12, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> The only reason I brought the damn dog breed up in the first place was because the author in question had already brought it up in the thread. If he felt that it was important for me to know by the end of the beginning that it's a Golden, I felt that I should let him know that I did not picture his intended dog by the end of that. I have no idea why this is so important. It's up to the author to decide if I simply have to see his specific image of this dog in that tiny amount of space. It's not a deal breaker to me if I can't see his intended vision anyway (as I've stated, I don't care about the breed). He can be as vague as fog for all I care, but if he _needs_ me to see something specific in a specific amount of time, I felt it would be nice to let him know that I didn't see it. If I don't _have_ to see a Golden in that opening, everything's fine. No more needed to be said on the subject _ever_. And the whole point is moot since he won't change the opening anyway.
> 
> I even said the opener was good and praised his attempt at the ambitious POV. I just didn't picture the dog the same way. I told him why I didn't see the dog exactly the same way he did, too, so if he felt the need to clarify his description, he knew exactly what to target. I was being nice. I was trying to be as helpful as possible.



And I appreciate the effort. I've also repeatedly said that I wasn't concerned, in the opening, with the reader knowing what breed Chase is. I only mentioned that he was a golden in response to a question posed in post #8. I never implied that his breed was significant. Does a dog think of himself by breed? I doubt it. Since the opening scene is written from the dog's POV it wouldn't make sense to try and shoehorn the breed in, so, at that point I wouldn't expect the reader to know the breed, much less, "feel that it was important." I have no idea why you seem stuck on the idea that Chase being a golden is important to the story. I chose a golden because I know and love the breed, and one of my goldens fit the character quite well. It made writing him easy. Chase being a golden was important to me, but, for the story's purpose, the dog could have been anything from a mixed breed, to a papillon.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 12, 2019)

Aquilo said:


> The visual details in this are good, and I do prefer good visuals. If he's waking to a sectioning(?) for the first time, to finding he's starpped down for the first time, though, I'd maype expect a little more fear, more anger, more disorientation with where he is and what's going on. And this can come down to character voice. E.g., here:
> 
> “You’re awake, Mr. Surrey!”
> 
> ...



Thanks for reading!

What's "sectioning"?

Most people would be terrified or angry in that position, so I'm purposefully setting him up as... an _odd_ man. Over the next hundred words or so, we find, through the conversation he has with Dr. Havens, that Surrey can't remember anything about his past or people he's known. The emotional context of life is absent. Indeed, the more he's pressed to remember, the less he remembers and the greater the risk to his physical health. He's supposed to come off as detached, isolated and overly polite at this point. This makes the contrast when we find out what he's been doing during this extended blackout period--like why that window is boarded up, why no one visits him, why hardly anyone talks to him, why everyone's totally covered around him, and why he's strapped in--that much more interesting. All that gets explained in a couple paragraphs over that same next hundred words or so. 

Hunh, just realized that being strapped in, alone in a little room is very much his baseline emotional state. As a character throughout the entire story, it works as a metaphor to set up his overly polite, submissive personality, and the restrictions that he (and others) keep on his behavior, drives, emotions and even his orientation, identity and memories themselves. Poor bastard never does figure out who he really _is_, in part because he never figures out who he really _was_. Even once he gets his memories back (about 5k in), he realizes that he hasn't remembered it correctly and will never get his real memories back, that he's stuck acting out who he is based in part on a false past, and thus false emotional context. Oo, even weirder, he could be taken as the embodiment of the "nice", modern, civilized, polite, politically correct American culture struggling to act on societal norms, its emotions and behavior based in part on a history which is neither complete nor accurate, and against threats (both foreign and domestic) to its very identity, life and culture. Even when Surrey can get over the societal constraint of being "nice" all the time, his aggression ultimately plays into someone else's interests (conscription), often to great personal detriment. _Yay_, unintentional metaphors that work because a story just felt right that way.


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## Aquilo (Jul 12, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> Thanks for reading!
> 
> What's "sectioning"?
> 
> ...



I appreciate the explanation, but whether Surrey is angry, placid, etc, there's not really enough supporting context around those initial words to start world or character building. You show it with a little dialogue "I guess so." but not much after that. The transition from the nurse entering to Surrey speaking and quickly finishing speaking is too fast to allow readers to see what's going on with him. They're already being asked to move on and see what the nurse is doing over how Surrey reacts to that. He's almost lost in the opening to what the nurse is doing.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 12, 2019)

Aquilo said:


> I appreciate the explanation, but whether Surrey is angry, placid, etc, there's not really enough supporting context around those initial words to start world or character building. You show it with a little dialogue "I guess so." but not much after that. The transition from the nurse entering to Surrey speaking and quickly finishing speaking is too fast to allow readers to see what's going on with him. They're already being asked to move on and see what the nurse is doing over how Surrey reacts to that. He's almost lost in the opening to what the nurse is doing.



Thank-you for responding again. I think I'm more confused by what needs to change now though. It seemed like you didn't like his more passive attitude/lack of emotional description, so I let you know that it was intentional, and then... you seem to want more emotional/action description from him or less from the nurses now. Should I be  dwelling more on description generally and/or emotionally grounding him. Emotional weight on this character at this exact moment is surprisingly difficult, which is part of why I was speeding it right along, not giving him a lot of time to reflect on anything or put himself together. He doesn't remember this room, these nurses, how he got here--anything before this moment--so if something else is coming through in this opening, I'll need to fix it. If the opening needs a few more beats from him or emotional context, I'll stick it in. I don't think the first 500 words is a deal breaker, necessarily, but it never hurts to get the story off to a stronger start.  

Things I'm trying to get across (or at least hint at so I can build on it as the story goes) in the opening:
1) A darker, more mysterious tone
2) Something isn't right here
3) An adult male protagonist has just awoken, doesn't know where he is, is restrained, but isn't perhaps as passionate as most people would be in his circumstance
4) Two nurses wearing a lot of protective equipment in a hospital-type environment (as though there is a worry about some pathogen)
5) The nurses are visibly and temperamentally different people, but neither seems to wholly like and/or trust this seemingly harmless protagonist
6) Dr. Havens exists and controls what the nurses are allowed to do

If these things aren't at least hinted at, I need to fix them. From your comments, I may need to make it more apparent that Surrey has no clue what's going on, where he is, who these people are (if she hadn't said his name, he wouldn't know it).


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## luckyscars (Jul 13, 2019)

Notes in red



seigfried007 said:


> I figured I'd post the opening to a current WIP now that I've done my due diligence and at least tried to help the previous posters who were gracious enough to offer their work for dissection. I don't begin all of my stories or even all of my long fiction the same way, and this story is no exception. It's a different kind of story, so I gave it a very different beginning than most.
> 
> *********************************************************************************
> *Pinocchio*
> ...



As an opener, overall not bad. I feel it's missing something though. It sounds, well, very hum-drum. What exactly do we learn from this passage that teases up the next? Nothing, really. There's no mentioning of anything particularly odd or out-of-place going on. Nothing that makes me think this is not an entirely usual situation that will not end entirely benignly. If that's the case, that there's nothing unusual about this situation, the scene doesn't move the story and needs cut. If it is the case that there's something amiss with the fat-and-rat nurses, the patient's condition, etc then that did not really come across. At all.

 The only thing that kind of met that criteria was this line: “*Why am I strapped in, or can't you answer that?" *The intrigue around the 'can't you answer that' makes me think there's something not quite right here. Either this is not a normal patient or this is not a normal hospital. I like that line. Needs a little more TLC.

I've got to be honest though, I absolutely loathe the epilogue*. It's painfully overwritten (which is funny considering how short it is), seems to serve no real purpose, just kind of hangs on there like some ghastly piece of flair. Really bad and a shame because the 'Welcome To December' part was quite good and you clearly have some talent.

*By the way, an epilogue goes at the end of a book not the beginning.


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## aparna (Jul 13, 2019)

Good information and I really happy hear this. This Opening is useful for all readers and I like more updated about novel openings...


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## Phil Istine (Jul 13, 2019)

I wrote a flash fiction piece a while back.  It was only three hundred words so I needed to get straight to the point and hook the reader.  I opted for the bizarre:

God wobbles on a barstool in the _Crazy Angels_ saloon.

Hopefully, such an odd opening would cause a reader to want to read more.  Although it's not poetry, I attempted to assist flow by including two pieces of assonance (God wobbles ... _Crazy Angels_).  I attempted to create questions in the reader's mind (What's God doing in a bar?  He's wobbling, so is he drunk? Why is the bar called Crazy Angels?  Is it a pretty wild place?  Is he about to fall off the stool?  What happens next in this rather bizarre situation?).

Although that one sentence is quite minimalist it began life as something like "God sat on a barstool, after drinking a skinful." (it wasn't exactly that, but that's the general drift).  I altered the opening sentence several times before arriving at the satisfactory version.

Creating a couple of unanswered questions by showing and alluding to seems to be a better hook.


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## EmmaSohan (Jul 13, 2019)

Hi Seigfried. Thanks for posting. Oddly enough, I am trying to write about POV and noticed that you described the nurse's face before the character could see it.

And we apparently have different opinions about details. For me, you have seem to have spent a lot of time describing nurses who are unimportant to the story. So you are asking me to do work to visualize them but I get no reward.

Anyway, I keep reading but you are a little boring. You could get the doctor in sooner? Or, if there was just some conflict. Or, I don't know, he could have said "Where are my friends and family keeping vigil over me?" Basically, if you want to start with this, you have to add something of interest. Or make it shorter? Interweave his thoughts with her changing his soiled sheet?

It's a good job of getting my interest in the plot. Why is he there? Why this strange situation? And you are trying to do setting with a scene instead of description, which I appreciate.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 14, 2019)

It seems like a recurrent theme is that I need to make it more plain that Surrey can't remember anything of his past, does not remember waking up here ever before, doesn't remember these nurses or know where he is or even who he is. While we do find these out in the next couple paragraphs, from the sounds of the feedback this has received in this thread, even 700 words into a novel is too late.  



EmmaSohan said:


> Hi Seigfried. Thanks for posting. Oddly enough, I am trying to write about POV and noticed that you described the nurse's face before the character could see it.
> 
> And we apparently have different opinions about details. For me, you have seem to have spent a lot of time describing nurses who are unimportant to the story. So you are asking me to do work to visualize them but I get no reward.
> 
> ...



Thanks for reading and for feedback!



Surrey can see their faces enough to know that one's round and a has a "piqued expression", and the other's skinny, has a sharp nose and is ratlike (although "skinny" and "ratlike" will conjure different visuals to different readers). They're wearing ear-loop surgical masks, but you can tell the general shape of the lower face and nose through one. He can also see their eyes, because the mask only covered the lower half of the face. Maybe we're used to seeing different versions of surgical masks? Or is it that she pushed the door open with her bottom? In that case, the hallway is brightly lit, so he can still see her as she's entering the room. 

Other than saying one's fluffy, and one's skinny & ratlike, there's not much physical description on either of these women (about as little as I could get away with and still have them be instantly recognizable and memorable). Reader mostly gets to form opinions and visuals based on what the nurses do or say, because as you've mentioned (though the reader has no reason to assume one way or the other at only 500 words in), these are both minor recurring characters throughout the first four chapters. Like Dr. Havens, they'll show up much later in the book and have an expanded role, and when they do, I need the reader to remember them.   



luckyscars said:


> As an opener, overall not bad. I feel it's missing something though. It sounds, well, very hum-drum. What exactly do we learn from this passage that teases up the next? Nothing, really. There's no mentioning of anything particularly odd or out-of-place going on. Nothing that makes me think this is not an entirely usual situation that will not end entirely benignly. If that's the case, that there's nothing unusual about this situation, the scene doesn't move the story and needs cut. If it is the case that there's something amiss with the fat-and-rat nurses, the patient's condition, etc then that did not really come across. At all.
> 
> The only thing that kind of met that criteria was this line: “*Why am I strapped in, or can't you answer that?" *The intrigue around the 'can't you answer that' makes me think there's something not quite right here. Either this is not a normal patient or this is not a normal hospital. I like that line. Needs a little more TLC.
> 
> ...



Thanks for reading!

While it's not your bag, apparently, I'm thrilled you read it anyway. You've already read more than my husband (who caught a bit while peeking over my shoulder once and promptly loathed it). I'm ecstatic. You're one of a very precious few male readers that have even read this much, so I'm on cloud nine right now. Thank-you so much for adding a valuable and very rare perspective on this. 

I'm not familiar enough with what Lifetime is airing anymore, but in this case, loving that character is a literal death sentence (it's a Lovecraftian abomination, basically). Sounding like Lifetime isn't even a bad thing, necessarily, because the work is going to be primarily marketed toward women. The "tarnished" refers to both the color and demeanor--tarnished silver is physically darker, but a tarnished character implies this entity has lost idealism, virtue, hope for humanity. It's also alright if you read "tarnished = dirty", in either a physical or character meaning (said character is currently homeless, has recently escaped years of cruel experimentation, and is a sex abuse victim = it's "dirty"). I'm trying to get across to the reader that the entity is dangerous, unsympathetic and spiteful. POV regrets this relationship, wishes he could do it all over again and never meet this entity that's ruined his life, but he is hopelessly compelled to stay even though he knows it will kill him. It's a lot to try and get across in 85 words.

By having the epilogue first, it sets up a bit of mystery as to how the POV got into that position (chicks dig mystery 8) ). I've tried to pack as much as I possibly could in the smallest possible space for that "epilogue", in part because some readers automatically skip pre-first chapter material, but also because the story is primarily about that relationship, and the entity in question isn't seen until chapter 7. Just reading the first chapter won't give the impression that said entity is ever going to be a romantic interest--if it's even a person. If I don't set it up, the reader will be as falsely led as Surrey into thinking it's anything from a virus to a secret government project throughout the first five chapters, because, while the world's reeling from the effects of this entity, nobody knows who or what is causing these effects. There's a lot of speculation, and so those first chapters don't even feel like they belong in this genre-bending (erotic) Lovecraftian tragedy.


The epilogue also goes first because the whole story's awash in time-skipping. Sorry it didn't work for you. The character is pretty florid with language once he gets going, and the test readers (familiar with the genre) have told me that under no conditions whatsoever should I change Surrey's voice. It doesn't work for everyone. I pare him down quite a bit during revisions--in part because he can drive me crazy with it, too, but also because I really want to keep the story moving.

There are two nurses. The rounder nurse held the door open for the rat-like one earlier in the story, but I suppose you missed it. It's in the line where she says she'll have to clear releasing him with Dr. Havens. Thank-you very much for mentioning the repetition of "Mr. Surrey." I'd wanted to get his name out there early so the reader could start getting a picture of him ASAP, but you're absolutely right about there being better, more organic ways of sticking his name in. I've had a few readers that incorrectly figured Surrey was female right off the bat, and they're never happy to find out he's a he if I wait long at all. Part of having a predominantly female readership, I guess. They seem to need more description about what characters look like right off the bat, so I try to sneak it in quick and get moving with story. Such a delicate balancing act!


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## luckyscars (Jul 15, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> Thanks for reading!
> 
> While it's not your bag, apparently, I'm thrilled you read it anyway. You've already read more than my husband (who caught a bit while peeking over my shoulder once and promptly loathed it). I'm ecstatic. You're one of a very precious few male readers that have even read this much, so I'm on cloud nine right now. Thank-you so much for adding a valuable and very rare perspective on this.
> 
> ...



It actually probably is my bag, or could be! Mystery/crime/horror/SF and a brush of fantasy is pretty much all I write. But yes, I'm male and I suppose that might matter?

Anyway, if this is a piece with a certain target market in mind and you know exactly what that target market wants, then by all means go with that judgment. When I critique work I do it based on what I think works irrespective of 'market'. What I think works is writing that is compulsive.

With that in mind, my issue with 'knowing him is a death sentence' is not so much with the sentiment, but the execution. I get what you are trying to achieve with the theme. And, you know, it's not a bad one. Well-trodden or not, it's constantly relevant, especially for a story aimed at women. The Lifetime Presents comparison wasn't a criticism of the idea but the execution.

See, when you begin with a line like 'to love him is death' I am immediately hit in the face with a value judgment that I did not form myself. You are _telling me what I must think. _That's not necessarily forbidden, but this is an answer to a question I did not ask, and it's an answer that is extremely final and not at all open to interpretation or further exploration.

So I would prefer (and I think most of your readers would - female or not) a more subtle, personal lead-in. The reverse chronology is all fine, I'm okay with the epilogue at the start, but it doesn't read like an epilogue. 'To love him is death' doesn't actually mean anything, does it? Not without you explaining it, anyway. Who is speaking? Who are they speaking about? What does it mean? And, most problematically, why should we care? 

Love isn't inherently interesting. Death isn't, either. You are quite literally introducing the two most well-worn literary devices (love and death) and expecting this to generate intrigue. Why would it? Like, there are a zillion other stories that feature both of those things. Nothing about that line, or the epilogue generally, suggests this is going to be a 'genre-bending (erotic) Lovecraftian tragedy' at all. It actually suggests this is going to be an extremely basic 'dark romance', for the reasons stated. 

And that's...unfortunate. Because I do assume your telling of the story will be interesting - as mentioned, I get a sense you have some talent - and that is why I hate the epilogue and feel the opening piece of chapter could be better. However, as Emma Sohan said, it's boring, and an opener cannot be boring. Has anybody who has read it told you it gripped them? And you need to give me some sense of Surrey's inner life. You don't have to tell me anything much about him, but you do need to put me in his shoes, give me some sense of his emotional state - as Terry does with his dog. It's a situation for which drama is easy, there's a lot of opportunity here but you must put it up front to make sure people keep reading. As it is, it reads as 'Guy in hospital with ugly nurses and he wants to watch TV' and there's nothing else there.


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## Aquilo (Jul 15, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> Thank-you for responding again. I think I'm more confused by what needs to change now though. It seemed like you didn't like his more passive attitude/lack of emotional description, so I let you know that it was intentional, and then... you seem to want more emotional/action description from him or less from the nurses now. Should I be dwelling more on description generally and/or emotionally grounding him.



It's not about like or dislike.  It's just criticism. It's about pinpointing why you have comments like 'it feels hum-drum' off Lucky. It's lacking something. To me, it's because Surrey is lost to the nurse's actions. There's no characterization from Surrey, i.e., the transition from what he's doing to the nurse's actions sees him get lost as a character. Even if he's a passive character, he's going to have thoughts... feelings... observations. Look back at Lucky's example from King: the main MC is given a very distinct character voice from the word go. Where's Surrey's voice? His character?

You say it comes later, but if Surrey is showing no interest in the beginning, why should the reader?

A guy coming around from illness/sleep/sickness like surrey will have issues with piecing together what's happened even though he's slept and woke a thousand times before. Yet Surrey wakes with a very clear head, no mugginess from sleep: no hurting from struggling even though they say he's been strapped down from struggling, no burning need to go to the toilet, hell, even just itch his morning wood and finding he can't. Surrey just... wakes. If you want to show placid: it needs more showing otherwise you get that "hum-drum" feeling. Even if he's feeling hum-drum, you need to show how the colours are muted in his world. The readers need to see it.


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## Terry D (Jul 15, 2019)

*EPILOGUE*
To love him is death. I really like this. It’s punchy and makes me want to read on.

If someone had told me this ten years ago, I would have listened. Works for me.

But, faced with his silver eyes tarnished and etching me as we stood on the pier, a streetlight making his ivory skin gleam in hues of sadness and hate, I could not pry myself away. Every fiber of me knew that he was death, that I should turn around and salvage what was left of my life. But I could not move. There are images in here that don’t work for me. How do eyes “etch?” It seems like a strange word choice. “Silver eyes tarnished…” Is this character a robot? An alien? The “hues of sadness and hate” is quirky, but not very descriptive. What is the reader supposed to see? 
Overall this brief opening creates questions, which is good, but it doesn’t do anything to build a foundation for what is to follow. It’s too florid. Even if it were placed at the end of the book it would not qualify as an ‘Epilogue’. An epilogue wraps things up, serving as a coda to fasten loose threads. This does not do that.

To love him is death.
*BOOK I*

*Welcome to December*

I woke strapped to a hospital bed, an empty IV bag hanging over me, its machine beeping to be reset, refilled. No family or friends sat vigilant near me. Curtains had been drawn over the boarded windows to my right. If the curtains are drawn, how does the character know the window is boarded? At first, I wondered if I was dreaming, but as I lay, just short of screaming, (This emotion doesn’t appear again in the entire piece. Should it be here?) the door swung open slowly, and a shaft of harsh fluorescence fell over me. I like the visual here.

A hefty nurse, clad in sea foam scrubs and a piqued expression, pushed the door open with her backside. She turned and stared at me a moment before blinking a few times. “You’re awake, Mr. Surrey!” Kind of nit-picky, but how does he see her “piqued expression” if she’s coming in backward?

“I guess so,” I said, trying to lift my head from the pillow. “Could you get these straps off me?” 

“Um, well, I’ll have to clear that with Dr. Havens,” she said as she held the door open for a *smaller*, scrawny nurse whose sharp nose jutted like a knife into her mask, “but I’m sure he’ll be fine with releasing you if this bug has run its course, Mr. Surrey.”

She flipped a switch *on the wall*, and the room was bathed in a sickly, greenish light. 

“Why am I strapped in, or can you answer that?”

“Well, you had a very high fever, Mr. Surrey, and sometimes people with high fevers aren’t themselves,” she said, sporadically making eye contact with me as she set to checking my vitals. 

The *small,* rat-like nurse refused to talk to me but dropped a load of linens in a chair and changed the soiled bedding under me, her face hard and skeptical, her hands cold as she refused to look at me with any more warmth than one gives a mosquito before smacking it. 

I asked if I might be able to watch the television hanging over the foot of the bed, but once again, she said that she would have to have permission cleared.

Hours later, the large nurse returned. She changed the IV bag and, *before she left*, turned the TV onto a round-the-clock aquarium channel.

Try reading the piece without the words I’ve put in bold above. Removing wish-washy words and phrases, as well as redundant descriptors can ‘punch up’ the writing and make it more effective. Overall I like the dialogue exchange.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 15, 2019)

Okay, so I've been working on that first chapter all day (even though I'd intended to work on a different part) and have tried to put a lot of your suggestions (as a group) to good use. From waking up to the TV, it's 550 words. Whole chapter is a touch over 1200 (that last 650 is the introduction of Dr. Havens. He sets up the major conflict and big picture view, so it's super important I get him and that conversation right). If anyone would want to read all or part of the revised first chapter, I can post it here, in a workshop, or update the existing Red Light thread. 

I'm not sure if any part of a book gets revised more than the first chapter. There's so much pressure to get it perfect for us amateurs. Once people go pro, they can write all kinds of junk.


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## Terry D (Jul 16, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> Okay, so I've been working on that first chapter all day (even though I'd intended to work on a different part) and have tried to put a lot of your suggestions (as a group) to good use. From waking up to the TV, it's 550 words. Whole chapter is a touch over 1200 (that last 650 is the introduction of Dr. Havens. He sets up the major conflict and big picture view, so it's super important I get him and that conversation right). If anyone would want to read all or part of the revised first chapter, I can post it here, in a workshop, or update the existing Red Light thread.
> 
> I'm not sure if any part of a book gets revised more than the first chapter. There's so much pressure to get it perfect for us amateurs. Once people go pro, they can write all kinds of junk.



I think posting it in one of the workshops would be best, or, as you mention, updating the Red Light thread.


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## LCLee (Jul 16, 2019)

My dark skin and black hair were an inheritance from my mother’s Roman background. I was only 15 when my father killed her for adultery. Late at night while I was sleeping, she cried out, when he put a pillow over her face. Her muffled screams rang out throughout the house. I jumped out of bed and ran in to stop him. When I grabbed his arms to free her, he knocked me away. Then I hit my head on the armoire and fell to the floor. I laid unconscious for a moment, and I struggled to stand up. When my head cleared, I could see my father still holding her down as she went silent. The blankets were strewn across the bed. She had kicked the slats out from under the mattress and it had folded in over her. I screamed at my father to stop, hoping my brothers would hear me.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 16, 2019)

LCLee said:


> My dark skin and black hair were an inheritance from my mother’s Roman background. I was only 15 when my father killed her for adultery. Late at night while I was sleeping, she cried out, when he put a pillow over her face. Her muffled screams rang out throughout the house. I jumped out of bed and ran in to stop him. When I grabbed his arms to free her, he knocked me away. Then I hit my head on the armoire and fell to the floor. I laid unconscious for a moment, and I struggled to stand up. When my head cleared, I could see my father still holding her down as she went silent. The blankets were strewn across the bed. She had kicked the slats out from under the mattress and it had folded in over her. I screamed at my father to stop, hoping my brothers would hear me.



While short is easy to critique, I don't have enough context to gauge how well this fits in your work. It's really brief, so is it a flyby (like a quick explanatory exposition/"lore dump") or is the reader supposed to be seeing this unfold? Part of the confusion on this is due to your verb tenses, I think. 



> I was only 15 when my father killed her


 Is this a 15-year-old telling the story or a 30-year-old looking back on these events? If the POV is reliving these events or living them in past tense (which is the default storytelling tense), then you should consider padding this scene out a bit (and breaking up the paragraph). If the POV is much older and just telling the reader how something happened, then the relatively dry language and solid paragraph work. 

What is this story primarily about? When does the bulk of the main story happen relative to this event?

I'm pretty sure I'm not picturing the murder of the mom correctly. How could she kick the slats if she's on top of the mattress? Maybe the bed style could be set up (or the folding mattress left out). 

How does the POV know the murder is over adultery? How does the POV hear the muffled murder but his/her brothers not? 

Generally, a POV won't know they've fallen unconscious. They just don't remember how they got from one spot to another or how much time has elapsed (I've passed out a few times). In third person limited, this wouldn't be an issue, but in first, it's more realistic if the person just wakes up on the floor, not entirely sure how they got there, and resumes doing as much as they can to save mom (like possibly phone the police, pick up a weapon or other object, pry dad's hands off or get between the pillow and mom, maybe tug the sheets and make the whole assembly fall off the bed that way). 

Would probably read tighter if the "only" was taken out in that second sentence. There's a few other bits that could be chopped out, too, but they're pretty minor. The major thing is going to be if you need to make it a proper scene and really make the reader live this event out. As it stands, there's too much narrative distance between us, the events and this character. We can kind of see what's going on, but it's not our mom being murdered. 

If fleshing this out and getting your readers to think about their moms is more what you're after, leave the Roman heritage out for the moment and start in with the POV waking up suddenly due to this strange noise. Maybe gets up to investigate and sees or hears something horrible going on in the parents' bedroom. Make the reader wonder what the heck is going on in that room, why dad's killing mom, if dad is going to kill mom (who's fighting back and maybe only tragically dies because the POV gets knocked out). 

Murder is good hook in its own way, but because I'm not sure exactly where you're trying to go with tee scene, I don't know how well you've executed what you were going after.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 17, 2019)

Terry D said:


> I think posting it in one of the workshops would be best, or, as you mention, updating the Red Light thread.


That forum feels like the dunce stool. The rest of the forum goes past, blithely passing it by and pretending it doesn't exist. Nobody talks to the dunce. Feel like I've been bad and called out just visiting that place. 

One part "Unforgiven" by Metallica, another "The Sound of Silence" by Simon & Garfunkel (or Disturbed, take your pick). 

If members automatically had access to the Red Light Room at a certain age, it wouldn't be so lonely in there, but as it is, everyone has to jump through hoops. This is especially sad because it means society finds sex more appalling than murder and other violent crimes, when you think about it from a sick angle. Gratuitous murder can happen in any workshop thread with a tag, but sex? Banish those dirty people to their own, quiet little corner so they can reflect on what they've done. Place is quiet as a library.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 17, 2019)

Not wanting to disturb the originally posted, much earlier draft, I went ahead and posted the revised first chapter HERE. 

Can't shake that it might not actually be better though, which is sad. Not sure why.


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## LCLee (Jul 17, 2019)

*The missing paragraph*

All good points. As far as the slats on the bed I was trying to show the rough way she was put to death would cause the slats to drop out. The whole paragraph is in retrospect. I think the first paragraph would tell more. I hope I don't violate any rules by posting it.

Standing on the gangplank in Haiti, I reflected on how much my life had changed, since I left the farm. I was named Elizabeth, but I was called Beth. My father was Welch, and had traveled across Europe as an Able seaman. He decided to settle down when he inherited his parent’s farm, a rundown place west of Hennebont. So he returned to the farm, with my mother from Italy. They had married in the church back in Naples, and traveled around the Tyrrhenian Sea together. They had a freedom that few enjoyed at that time.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 17, 2019)

LCLee said:


> All good points. As far as the slats on the bed I was trying to show the rough way she was put to death would cause the slats to drop out. The whole paragraph is in retrospect. I think the first paragraph would tell more. I hope I don't violate any rules by posting it.
> 
> Standing on the gangplank in Haiti, I reflected on how much my life had changed, since I left the farm. I was named Elizabeth, but I was called Beth. My father was Welch, and had traveled across Europe as an Able seaman. He decided to settle down when he inherited his parent’s farm, a rundown place west of Hennebont. So he returned to the farm, with my mother from Italy. They had married in the church back in Naples, and traveled around the Tyrrhenian Sea together. They had a freedom that few enjoyed at that time.



In retrospect it works better--sound much more like a "looking back on things" kinda paragraph. 

Not sure if Welch is what you're looking for. It's a variant of "Welsh". Maybe UK people could weigh in more. 
Don't need a comma after "changed", "Welch", or "Naples" necessarily. "Able seaman" doesn't need to be capitalized because it's not a proper noun. 

As quick as this part went past, the murder could possibly stand to be shortened, too.


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## luckyscars (Jul 18, 2019)

LCLee said:


> My dark skin and black hair were an inheritance from my mother’s Roman background. I was only 15 when my father killed her for adultery. Late at night while I was sleeping, she cried out, when he put a pillow over her face. Her muffled screams rang out throughout the house. I jumped out of bed and ran in to stop him. When I grabbed his arms to free her, he knocked me away. Then I hit my head on the armoire and fell to the floor. I laid unconscious for a moment, and I struggled to stand up. When my head cleared, I could see my father still holding her down as she went silent. The blankets were strewn across the bed. She had kicked the slats out from under the mattress and it had folded in over her. I screamed at my father to stop, hoping my brothers would hear me.



Too short. Reads like a synopsis or a summary. 

Ask yourself if this is how a human being would actually talk about their mother being murdered by their father.

I'm not saying you have to go all weepy with it or anything. Some people do talk about terrible things in a weirdly matter-of-fact way. But nonetheless, there needs to be an edge. You need to have a sense of an emotional heart to the story. Other than the first line this sort of lacks any emotional connection to anything. Maybe if the character is autistic. But other than that, it doesn't do it for me...and I like a good murder.


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## Terry D (Jul 18, 2019)

LCLee said:


> My dark skin and black hair were an inheritance from my mother’s Roman background. I was only 15 when my father killed her for adultery. Late at night while I was sleeping, she cried out, when he put a pillow over her face. Her muffled screams rang out throughout the house. I jumped out of bed and ran in to stop him. When I grabbed his arms to free her, he knocked me away. Then I hit my head on the armoire and fell to the floor. I laid unconscious for a moment, and I struggled to stand up. When my head cleared, I could see my father still holding her down as she went silent. The blankets were strewn across the bed. She had kicked the slats out from under the mattress and it had folded in over her. I screamed at my father to stop, hoping my brothers would hear me.



Too much is happening too quickly. Remember, you are opening a novel here, you have room to let things develop, to really pull in the reader. The first sentence seems disconnected from the rest of the paragraph. What does the narrator's appearance have to do with his mother's murder? Save that for later. Then you could take every other sentence in this paragraph and use it as a topic sentence for a paragraph of its own. Seriously. You could explore each act to describe her murder in greater detail and with more sensory input. Make the reader _feel_ the child's terror, don't just tell us he was scared. Moving too quickly through this sort of action is common with new writers


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## LCLee (Jul 18, 2019)

Thanks all. I have been encouraged by others to not pile it all in one paragraph.
Although this is released, I will use the comments for my WIP.

ETA I looked at the latest copy of my released work and it has a ton of SPAG errors.
I put it through prowritingaid and found stuff in every paragraph. _Just when you thought you were done._ 
I’m now in the process of going through all 90,000 words to correct and maybe a better opening paragraph.

ETA Oh thank God I had an older version. I looked at the released copy and it has addressed the SPAG issues.


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## EmmaSohan (Jul 20, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> Not wanting to disturb the originally posted, much earlier draft, I went ahead and posted the revised first chapter HERE.
> 
> Can't shake that it might not actually be better though, which is sad. Not sure why.



I want to make a point here. There are ways we, as authors, make a scene come to life. But the main goal in the nurse scene is to get to the doctor scene.  I sometimes see writers trying too hard on an opening scene to provide the context and description to make that scene better, when that's not a good choice when it makes the scene longer (and usually off-plot).

And of course anything that makes one of these trying-to-get-somewhere-else scenes interesting and doesn't increase length is good. So, to me, the new nurses scene moved in a very good direction -- it seems shorter, and it's more interesting. (We don't need any context to know that nurses don't usually wear goggles.)


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## Trollheart (Aug 28, 2019)

I really liked the opening, seigfred. I think in odd ways it reminds me of the opening of "Day of the Triffids", though in that case the protagonist was blind. A few small suggestions: when the nurse says "Mr. Surrey" perhaps he should say "Surrey? Is my name Surrey?" or somesuch, to give the immediate understanding of his amnesia. Or maybe she should just gasp "You're (or better, he's) awake! I must inform Dr. Havens!"
Not at all important, but I thought a nice touch at the end would be when she turns the TV to the aquarium channel, he should grump "I hate fish."

I, too, have to admit though to the same confusion about "etching with his eyes" but I'm sure that gets explained. Very descriptive, and given that Pinocchio is seen universally as the lovable puppet-made-flesh, to have him (I assume) evil is a great touch. I'd read more. 

Hope that helps in some small way.


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## seigfried007 (Aug 28, 2019)

Trollheart said:


> I really liked the opening, seigfred. I think in odd ways it reminds me of the opening of "Day of the Triffids", though in that case the protagonist was blind. A few small suggestions: when the nurse says "Mr. Surrey" perhaps he should say "Surrey? Is my name Surrey?" or somesuch, to give the immediate understanding of his amnesia. Or maybe she should just gasp "You're (or better, he's) awake! I must inform Dr. Havens!"
> Not at all important, but I thought a nice touch at the end would be when she turns the TV to the aquarium channel, he should grump "I hate fish."
> 
> I, too, have to admit though to the same confusion about "etching with his eyes" but I'm sure that gets explained. Very descriptive, and given that Pinocchio is seen universally as the lovable puppet-made-flesh, to have him (I assume) evil is a great touch. I'd read more.
> ...



I've already changed a lot. The old "epilogue" I don't believe is going to fit anymore because I've been talked into a redemption arc on Pinocchio. Beginning has been revised since the original version posted in this thread. Whole book (so far) is being posted in the Red Light Room as I write it (I usually post a chapter a day).  It's up to 75 chapters/88K now (I keep the chapters really short). The first two chapters are posted in the speculative fiction workshop, and I posted a gnarly excerpt in the regular fiction workshop. 

Thanks for reading and commenting


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## Trollheart (Aug 28, 2019)

Never having posted anything I've written here before, I have a question. I read that to upload something for critique it has to be converted to HTML. Is this also necessary with extracts here, or can I just copy and paste from my document?


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## seigfried007 (Aug 28, 2019)

Trollheart said:


> Never having posted anything I've written here before, I have a question. I read that to upload something for critique it has to be converted to HTML. Is this also necessary with extracts here, or can I just copy and paste from my document?


Aw nah, buddy. You just copy 'n' paste. If you "go advanced," you can use the "paste from Word" function and a few other handy formatting buttons.


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## Trollheart (Aug 28, 2019)

Thanks seigfred! All right then, be as kind as you can. 
It's a little longer than it probably should be, but this all kind of sets up the basic premise so I hope you'll bear with me and it won't be too much of a trial to get through it, ye brave souls who venture to do so.

*THE LONG GAME*
*PART I: DE PROFUNDIS*
*CHAPTER 1*
_Welcome to my nightmare_


This was the last thing he needed. The headaches were getting worse; he hadn’t had a good night’s sleep in a month, and he knew why. It was the nightmares, of course. Always the same one – her eyes, closed now and slowly being covered over, the scrape of the shovel, the sound of heavy breathing, the hoot of an owl somewhere in the distance. Sweat rolling down his back despite the heavy rain that battered his head and soaked the earth underneath, so that he had to stop and remove his jacket, dabbing at his forehead (even as he was now) and trying to squint through glasses dotted with rainwater, afraid to stop and remove them. 
Afraid to stop, afraid to continue. 


The sudden sweep of headlights as a car passed by on the road outside, seemingly silent, though surely it had to have made some noise? His body tensing, freezing as he waited, holding his breath, then the light of the twin lamps receding into the night. The shovel, held in his hands almost like a weapon (how ironic!) now continuing its grisly work, the soft, sodden soil tumbling into the crevice in the ground, the owl (the same one, or a different one, he neither knew nor cared) hooting again, his fevered mind ascribing an impossible accusation to the sound:_ I know what you’re doing! _


The cold tears trickling down his face, though he could never remember whether they were tears or just droplets of rain. He was soaked through, and he sneezed, trying to hold the sound in, a sound that echoed in his ears like an explosion. Deafening. Damning. The sudden whoop of a siren, the flashing circling blue light that he imagined reflecting off the stark trees, the discovery that never came, that he saw, imagined, dreaded only in his mind.


Finishing the job. Walking away, not looking back. Her voice. Did he imagine that too? Surely, for the dead do not speak.


And yet, he heard her voice.


He heard her voice, like her corpse rising up out of the grave, pushing the earth aside, climbing out and calling to him.
Calling his name.
“Jerry!”


Someone was calling his name. He was not imagining it. The horror was real. The nightmare was real.


No, this was not the nightmare. At least, not the one he had experienced every night he closed his eyes, going on for at least four weeks now. This was the other nightmare, the one he couldn’t escape by waking up. What was it they called it?
Oh yeah. Reality.


In reality someone was calling his name. His eyes blinked open and flicked to the intercom on his desk, from which the voice issued, a soft, sultry female tone flattened by the mechanics of the speaker to a dull, grating hiss.


The lower volume of the voice told him Carla was murmuring; she didn’t tend to use his name during working hours. Here, it was all professional. It had to be. But as consciousness returned, pushing away the phantoms, storing them away until night fell and he climbed into bed, when they would be ready to put in another arduous shift tormenting him till morning, so too did realisation and understanding. Evidently Carla had tried several times to call him, using his title, but failed, and finally had resorted to using his name, all but whispering it in the hope of bringing him back to the real world. 


And it had worked.


“Yeah?” He was a little groggy from the painkillers – he really should see a doctor about those headaches, he thought, then grinned without mirth. Not much point in that, since he _was_ a doctor. Clearing his throat and sorting out his jumbled thoughts, preparing to leap back onto the hurtling train of the day-to-day business of life, he amended his response. Never knew who was listening. “What is it, Miss Dalton?”


Reasonably sure she had his attention now, Carla said “The police are here, Doctor Fletcher.”
He heaved a sigh of relief, mixed with a sense of surprise. That, he had to admit, had been damn quick! 
“Send them on in, Miss Dalton please,” he advised his receptionist, and a moment later the door opened and two men in suits walked in. Although he cheerily waved them to a chair (there was only one; let them fight over it) neither accepted the invitation. Their faces were pretty grim, he noted to himself, which he found a little odd. Of course, the police had to be professional at all times, and much of the time that involved not smiling, but even so, for such a relatively trivial matter, you’d think they could at least pretend to be human!


“Doctor Fletcher?” One of the men stepped forward, businesslike but with a hard glint in his eye that the man seated behind the desk did not care for. He nodded. “Doctor Jeremy Fletcher?” As if there might somehow be two Dr. Fletchers in the one practice, the man who had spoken elaborated on the name, in his attempt, presumably, to ensure this was the right man.
“That’s right,” Fletcher smiled. “And may I just compliment you on your response time. Very impressive.”


The two men, the one who had spoken and the one who had, as yet, not, exchanged a look that said this was not the reaction they had expected, but both held their peace, possibly unsure how to react. Doctor Fletcher went on.
“Now, before you ask, yes of course I’ve informed Visa, and American Express, so she won’t be able to use the cards. But you see, unfortunately there was a large quantity of money, too. Myself and the wife, heading off on holiday and I was going to drop the payment in at the travel -”


He stopped mid-sentence, as the man who had spoken previously now did so again, his eyes screwed up in confusion. It only now hit Fletcher that these men wore no uniforms, which must, as they were announced by his receptionist as being from the police, mean they were detectives, plain-clothes men, as they used to call them in his day. But why would the station send detectives down for such a minor incident, he began to wonder?


“Sir, I think there may be a misunderstanding here,” said the first man. “My name is Detective Sergeant Collins, and this is my colleague, Detective Constable Morris. I’m not quite sure why you think we’re here, but I can tell you. There have been several serious allegations made against you, and I’m afraid I must ask you to accompany us to the station to be interviewed.”


Reality and dream suddenly blended together, exploding in a dark kaleidoscope that shattered his world into tiny fragments and sent them spinning in all directions.
Her voice.
_Jerry!_


“I – I beg your pardon?” he spluttered, when the impact of what DS Collins had told him hit. “I thought you were here to investigate the robbery!”
“Robbery, sir?” Collins’ eyes showed no sympathy, but a mild surprise. Those of his, so far silent colleague, betrayed the barest hint of humour. Fletcher took an instant dislike to DC Morris. Surely he was too young to be a Detective? Indeed, he looked about thirteen, with a fresh complexion, sharp eyes and a mouth which seemed designed to be forever twisted into a sneering grin, though he dared not do so while in the presence of his superior. No, the grin was displayed in his eyes, something which could never be proven were he accused of it. But Fletcher knew. Oh yes, he knew.


“Yes,” he went on, strangely aware that the details, indeed the very incident which had seemed so annoying and important a few minutes ago were rapidly losing precedence in his mind, and were of no interest whatever to the two unsmiling (unless you looked in their eyes) detectives who stood before him. Still, he felt he had to explain, lest they think him an idiot. “Not a half hour ago. Woman came in, complaining of... well, I can’t say, obviously – doctor patient confidentiality, you know. Though come to think of it, she probably wasn’t suffering from anything,” he reflected, as if only realising this now. “In which case, does that clause even apply?” He seemed to be directing the question at the two cops, both of whom looked, and were, supremely under-qualified to deliver any sort of opinion, and neither of which cared to attempt such. 


He felt he was rambling, and hurried on, his mind racing almost as much as his mouth, but nowhere near as much as his heart. Could this be it? Had they discovered her remains? Was this the last day of his freedom? Had his dark chickens come home to roost? Had the nightmare finally, almost inevitably, become real?


All these questions flitted through his head while his tongue explained, almost incidentally, about the woman who had taken her opportunity to rob his wallet when he had been called out of the surgery. It had been a while before he had missed it, and she was long gone by then. So of course, he had called the police.
But these particular police didn’t seem to care about what would be categorised as a petty theft. They had, it seemed, bigger fish to fry.

And he was that fish.


Which led him to ask, finally, the question he should have asked in the first place.
“What allegations, Detective Sergeant? And by whom?”
Collins’ face remained grim. “I’m afraid I’m not at liberty to disclose those details here, sir,” he said, as if he believed he protected the secret to the key to Britain’s nuclear defence programme. “We can talk down at the station. If you’d just follow us please.”


As he grabbed his coat and left instructions with Carla to try to get Dr. Benson to take any of his waiting patients with more emergency needs, and to thereafter close up for the day, Fletcher was a little taken aback by the entrance of two more policemen into his surgery. These, however, were uniformed.


“Dr. Fletcher?” one asked, his eyes darting around the room and landing, with evident surprise, on the two detectives. “You called in a robbery here?”
Collins gave the bobby a watery grin as he showed the doctor to the door. 
“He’s got bigger problems, I’m afraid, son,” he remarked. “You might want to talk to the receptionist, though she’s a little busy right now.”


_She could taste earth in her mouth, feel it on her teeth, rubbing off her gums. It was tumbling in tiny flakes down her dry throat, and clogging up her eyes. She wanted to scream but no sound came out of her mouth, only an almost inaudible croaking. She tried to kick, but pain lancing through her body told her that her legs were either broken or – she tried not to think of it – torn off, and the hot soil pressing down on her like some invisible and immovable hand prevented any motion even if she could have moved her legs. She had a sudden and terrifying vision of being sealed up in a coffin, lowered into the ground and left there to rot, but she knew she was not in a box. There was, however, wood lying around her – her brain refused to allow her to work out where it had come from or what it was – and she seized upon this buried debris as her only hope of salvation.

_
_She could hear a voice above her, feet walking, hushed tones. Someone said something, but she could not make out the words. It sounded like it might have been a shout, or a call, perhaps. She was so deep down that it was like being underwater, and she could barely hear any sounds, but she was certain that was a voice. And if it was a voice, it meant that someone was up there. Perhaps that wasn’t a good thing, her brain, deciding to work now, told her: she had no idea how she had come to be buried in the ground, and for all she knew this voice could belong to the person who was responsible for her plight. She could be listening to the voice of her killer. 

_
_Was she dead? She didn’t think so. Not yet, anyway: she could hear her own sharp, ragged breathing in her ears, and the rapid thump of her heart. Her sense of smell had not betrayed her either. She caught the scent of charred wood and smoke, a rubbery, acrid stench that she had once smelled when a badly-repaired plug had blown with a scary bang. And of course, her sense of taste remained, as the crumbly soil continued to pour into her mouth, no matter how much she spat it out. Since she was lying down, and the earth was on top of her, there was nowhere for it to go when she expelled it from her throat, and it just fell back down into her mouth.

_
_Questing, groping fingers fastened on something, something familiar, and she closed her hands around the tattered dress, dragging the doll towards her. She was too weak to bang on the wood, and her fists would have made no discernible sound anyway, but the head of the doll was plastic, solid, hard. With what seemed to her almost superhuman effort, as her chest ached even worse and pain shot through her entire body, sooty tears rolling down her cheeks, she lifted the doll and brought its head down upon the fragment of wood that lay beside her._
_Again._
_And again._
_Nothing._
_Strength fading, she was losing consciousness when a new sound filled her ears, the sound of earth moving, the sound of boots crunching on gravel, and a sudden almost blinding light filled the hole she was trapped in. A glint of yellow metal, a grim face that suddenly curved up into an encouraging smile, the smell, the blessed smell of fresh air.

_
_“Don’t move, love,” said the angel who looked down on her. “We’re going to get you out of there. You’re safe now.”

_
_But despite his reassurances, she knew she would never be safe again._


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## seigfried007 (Aug 28, 2019)

Well, you're right about it being long for a beginning  I'd've capped it off with him burying her, but oh well, I've read it all now (*hee*hee*)

You've got a nice voice for it. The line spacing's probably off because of the indent-to-no-indent issue when posting on forum boards, so if you ever get around to posting on the Workshop boards, keep an eye out for line spacing between paragraphs. 

The dirt at the end was the weird part for me. If she's buried alive, the dirt's going to fill in everything, and she would've suffocated and been crushed under the weight of the earth. Try actually getting buried in whatever medium this is supposed to be, but dirt's heavy stuff, and air doesn't diffuse through it well, so there's not going to be any breathing, and she's not going to be able to bang around on anything. If these things need to happen, you'll want to make it crystal clear to your reader that this dirt's just that loose, and Dr. Fletcher is a shitty undertaker  

That said, it's an excellent opening. beginning with dreams/nightmares is kinda cliche--but your nightmare was intriguing due to the voice and content. I really enjoyed it.


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## Trollheart (Aug 29, 2019)

Thanks for that seigfred. Really appreciate it. 
Yes, the lines thing was weird: when I originally tried to post it (three times) it was cutting off like the first two letter in each line, so in the end I had to paste it into Notepad, of all things, and copy from that. 
As for the burial, well, without giving too much away, although the two events are linked, they're not the same. The little girl is buried after her house collapsed/burned down, and as I know people can survive in pockets of air in rubble for a while after such an event, that's what's happening here. I deliberately made it seem so, but the person being buried in the dream/remembrance of Dr. Fletcher is NOT the same one that is related in the last part. 

Thanks again so much for the feedback! I feared ridicule or being torn apart, and it's nice to see that the piece met with such a warm reception. 

When I get around to it, I'll post some of my short stories in the appropriate sections, and maybe you'll let me know what you think of them? 

One more time, thanks.
TH


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## Trollheart (Aug 29, 2019)

I should also add, thanks for your interesting take on the "burial". Though you couldn't have known it was a slightly different type of burial, your insight has proven very valuable. I will now add a line about her feeling just barely able to breathe as she's in a pocket of air, or something. I'll work it out, but the point is that I didn't take into account that someone might read that and think the same as you did, so again thanks for the suggestion/advice.


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