# Start 2015 on the right foot



## Apex

*I have never recommended writers self publish. Most who do find it a dead end…but not all.*

In 2004 one writer planned a course which led to success. Jamise L. Darness, a 32 year old first time writer came up with a winning formula.
Before she offered her first novel for sale, she marketed  her yet to be printed book.  Jamise hired a publicist .($) To make future readers aware of her coming book, she  started an Internet campaign. ($)  Sent out post cards to all who replied. Bought ($) mailing list. Went to many small book clubs, talked her book, and handed out fliers. Jamise talked to any who would listen. Months of hard work, and spending all she had saved ($)…she felt it was time to jump off the cliff. Her first printing ($) was 3,000 copies, and set out on her first book tour...the second day she had sold out. She ordered 15,000 ($) more books. The results? Jamise L. Darness within four months sold 36,000 books. Her publicist told her to attend a BookExpo. At the Expo she talked to, and secured an agent. Results? Her agent sold her book to a Standard publisher…Six figure ($) advance.

Yes it can be done. How did Jamise do it?  planning, money, a well written book, and a publicist. After she had done this, what agent would not listen to her?

Note: Her Internet campaign offered a free chapter or so. At first she did not want to sell to a Standard publisher. As sales grew, she understood she was over her head. Self publishing is a risky business, the same risk a Standard publisher faces.

Yes it can be done. Before you spend money printing your book, gather a list of those who say they will buy a copy. Does it cost money ($)? Yes. Plan out how much it will cost you. Do not start until you have the needed funds full in hand. If you have a good story well written, and many say, "Yes I want a copy," I would say go for it. If few say they want a copy...I would not.


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## movieman

The publishing world of 2015 is very different to the world of 2004. In particular, trade publishers have been burned by offering big advances to some of the '99-Cent Wonders' of self-publishing whose books didn't sell anywhere near as well at 10x the price.

Also, when comparing routes, you need to remember that only a small fraction of those who submit to trade publishers will ever sell a book, and only a small fraction of those will ever make more than minimum wage for the time they spent writing and selling that book. So the difference between making $50 on a self-published book and $0 on a book sitting in the publishers' slush pile for two years before they reject it isn't a big one. The writers making $100,000 a year self-publishing are outliers, but so are the writers who get even a $10,000 advance for their book from a trade publisher.


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## Apex

movieman said:


> The publishing world of 2015 is very different to the world of 2004. In particular, trade publishers have been burned by offering big advances to some of the '99-Cent Wonders' of self-publishing whose books didn't sell anywhere near as well at 10x the price.
> 
> Also, when comparing routes, you need to remember that only a small fraction of those who submit to trade publishers will ever sell a book, and only a small fraction of those will ever make more than minimum wage for the time they spent writing and selling that book. So the difference between making $50 on a self-published book and $0 on a book sitting in the publishers' slush pile for two years before they reject it isn't a big one. The writers making $100,000 a year self-publishing are outliers, but so are the writers who get even a $10,000 advance for their book from a trade publisher.



Well to start with, neither, agents, or publisher leave stuff sitting in a slush pile for two years. Those not being excepted by agents, and sold to publishers, either gave up, crappy writing, poor query letter, sent to agents who do not sell that type, etc, etc, etc. There has been very little real change in the standard industry since 2004. A good book will still pull in a six figure advance. Agents, and publishers are not against writers. There are to many who can't write, never learn about the industry they are trying to break into, and cry about how their great would be novel is being rejected by people who don't know what they are doing.
My advice: Learn to write well, have a good story, learn the publishing business, learn how to write a query, and above all...NEVER GIVE UP.  Writing is an adult business. It is not an easy business to break into. it takes time, and hard work. Most never learn how to write before they start, nor how the publishing industry works. Before they query an agent they don't spend time learning about the agent. They jump in half cocked, unprepared...and expect to get a seat at the table. 
Here is a fact you can take to the bank: LAZY PEOPLE DON"T GET PUBLISHED BY STANDARD PUBLISHER. IF A WRITER IS HARD TO WORK WITH, NEITHER AGENTS, OR PUBLISHER WILL TAKE YOU ON...EVEN IF YOU HAVE THE BEST STORY IN THE WORLD...they don't have time for that stuff.


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## Bishop

I might self publish just because I don't care.


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## Terry D

A six-figure advance is exceedingly rare, particularly for a first-time author. Advances from the* 3 or 4 largest *publishers will average $17,000 to $40,000. Other traditional publishers average from $3,000 to $7,000. There are the occasional exceptions, of course, but if you are going to count on that then you would be better off buying lottery tickets. The pay-scale increases for subsequent books through traditional publishers, but you'll have to earn that six-figure advance buy repeatedly producing.


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## Apex

Terry D said:


> A six-figure advance is exceedingly rare, particularly for a first-time author. Advances from the* 3 or 4 largest *publishers will average $17,000 to $40,000. Other traditional publishers average from $3,000 to $7,000. There are the occasional exceptions, of course, but if you are going to count on that then you would be better off buying lottery tickets. The pay-scale increases for subsequent books through traditional publishers, but you'll have to earn that six-figure advance buy repeatedly producing.



Where do you draw your figures from?


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## Terry D

Here are two sources:

http://brendahiatt.com/

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...SuWeNZaRIvYLxLsP1VtGstg&bvm=bv.82001339,d.aWw

The second, Writer Beware, contains several other informative links.


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## Bishop

No publisher is going to throw $100K at an author they don't know will sell, in the same way no smart gambler puts down $100K on a single number at roulette. A first time author is a gamble, every time, no matter how "good" the story is. Because good is subjective and what will sell cannot be quantified into a formula, much as people want to try. If there was a formula for good writing, EVERYONE would be bestsellers because we'd all just copy the formula.


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## Apex

Terry D said:


> Here are two sources:
> 
> http://brendahiatt.com/
> 
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...SuWeNZaRIvYLxLsP1VtGstg&bvm=bv.82001339,d.aWw
> 
> The second, Writer Beware, contains several other informative links.



 I know Victoria Strauss. I would not follow her across the street. She has never sold to a standard publisher. Her reports are second, and third hand. The comment she makes: 

*“Just under 50% sold directly to their publishers.” 

*The five major publishing New York Houses take work only via an agent. Small presses will print books that do not meet the standard of the Big Five. Yes the little publisher gives little if no advance. I would never recommend a small press. They keep the rights, which locks your book up. Most of the small presses also like dealing with a writer rather than an agent. Writers need to learn just what an agent is…you might say, your agent protects you like a book attorney. 

I suggest: “Never put your work out there without an agent.”  As to the grade of agent? Sign only with an agent who has sold to the big five for hard money. If you feel your writing is not good, keep working it until it is…you can have a best 
seller…it just takes work. 

Bishop,
many first time writers have received $600,000+ advances. It is not uncommon. And no, not all the big name writers have best seller with all their work...some even bomb out.  One of the draw backs writers have faced, the big book stores tell the publishers what they will buy. back in the day, the publishers owned their own book stores. The Federal Gov put a stop to that. But the littel John doe stores are again growing...grass roots, and it is helping. There are good days ahead for writers. The Big Five are moving into Ebooks. They have the money, an quality in what they sell...readers know that.


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## Terry D

I strongly suggest that anyone reading this thread do their own research into what traditional publishing houses expect and pay. There is plenty of information available. None that I can find supports $600000 advances as being common.


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## Apex

*Here are five first time writers off the top of my head,* and I didn't have to do a search for these.
Jamise L. Dames $600,000 +
J. A. Konrath $600,000 +
Arthur Golden $600,000 +
Charles Bronte $600,000 +
Chuck Palahniuk $600,000 +

There are many who get $250,000, some $300,000. The Big Five publishers only buy via agents. Agents who deal with the Big Five make about 15-20% from what the author gets. Do you think they are going to mess with publishers who give a small advance?  A good agent will sell a publisher just the HC rights for the USA, sell SC rights at the auction, Then sell over sea rights. 
This is hard for new writers to understand. The Big Five only review manuscripts from agents they trust. An agent who puts your book with a small press can never make an author money, even if it is a great book. 
Good agents, and publisher eat lunch together. It is a small world. It is a good idea when you receive a rejection to send them a thank you note for their time...they may remember your name. It you tell them to stick it, they will remember your name. If they talk about you over lunch, you're a dead duck. 

Note: the Big Five have many imprints. (other publishers.)


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## Bishop

Apex said:


> *Here are five first time writers off the top of my head,* and I didn't have to do a search for these.



Which puts these numbers at no real value. If they cannot be verified, then I have no reason to buy them myself, if you'll pardon the turn of phrase. Putting fortune and golden linings in the eyes of would-be writers blinds them from the craft itself. The reality is that sating a publisher's or an agent's interest is more about luck than anything. They're as human as we are, but we give them power, and they do as they please with it. Sure, let's say for argument that Palahniuk signed with a big publisher for $600K... I guarantee his first works published went for pennies. Only when he was already a strong name with a strong following did anyone pay a fortune for him. Because they knew he would bring in a fortune. It's impossible to know that about a nameless author.


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## Kyle R

I'm a huge Palahniuk fan. I learned a lot about writing from both his fiction and his non-fiction essays on the craft.

The first fiction Chuck ever sold was a seven-page short story. _Blue Heron Press_ bought the first rights for fifty dollars. It was published in an anthology called _The Pursuit of Happiness_​.

That story ended up as chapter six in his debut novel, _Fight Club: A Novel_.

He sold the publishing rights to that novel to _W.W. Norton & Company_ for *six thousand dollars*. Other authors later told Chuck this kind of advance was called "kiss-off money," so low it was meant to offend. But Chuck accepted the offer, stating, "That would pay my rent for a year."

That first piece of fiction he sold, by the way? The story that only earned him fifty dollars? A story he wrote one day while he was bored at work?

That's the story where the epic line was born: The first rule about fight club is you don't talk about fight club. :encouragement:


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## Apex

Kyle R said:


> I'm a huge Palahniuk fan. I learned a lot about writing from both his fiction and his non-fiction essays on the craft.
> 
> The first fiction Chuck ever sold was a seven-page short story. _Blue Heron Press_ bought the first rights for fifty dollars. It was published in an anthology called _The Pursuit of Happiness_​.
> 
> That story ended up as chapter six in his debut novel, _Fight Club: A Novel_.
> 
> He sold the publishing rights to that novel to _W.W. Norton & Company_ for *six thousand dollars*. Other authors later told Chuck this kind of advance was called "kiss-off money," so low it was meant to offend. But Chuck accepted the offer, stating, "That would pay my rent for a year."
> 
> That first piece of fiction he sold, by the way? The story that only earned him fifty dollars? A story he wrote one day while he was bored at work?
> 
> That's the story where the epic line was born: The first rule about fight club is you don't talk about fight club. :encouragement:



If Palahniuk sold the rights to _Blue Heron Press_ for $50, he could not have used it in chapter 6 of fight clup.(Copy right law.)They would have hung hin in court by his heels. Once you sell to a publisher, you do not have the right to use it in other works. I don't know who wrote that story, I would like a link to it. Did he have an agent for that work? Does not sound like it.


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## Kyle R

Apex said:


> If Palahniuk sold the rights to _Blue Heron Press_ for $50, he could not have used it in chapter 6 of fight clup.(Copy right law.)They would have hung hin in court by his heels. Once you sell to a publisher, you do not have the right to use it in other works.


There are different kinds of publishing rights and not every publishing contract is the same. 



*First publishing rights* are used upon first publication.
*Exclusive rights* are determined by the contract conditions. This could be anywhere from a week to a year or possibly longer (usually not longer than a few years, though).
*Once any period of exclusivity ends*, the author is generally free to publish their story elsewhere, with potential conditions applying.
 
There are a lot of nuances, commonalities, and exceptions. Fortunately, there many sources online that explain the differences. :encouragement:



			
				Apex said:
			
		

> I don't know who wrote that story, I would like a link to it. Did he have an agent for that work? Does not sound like it.



*"Fight Club"*
_Pursuit of Happiness Anthology, Blue Heron, 1995_
First appearance of _Fight Club_ in print, a short story preceding the Norton hardcover novel by one year.
(http://chuckpalahniuk.net/author/chuck-palahniuk-bibliography)

*Book listing on Northwest Press Books (Collectibles):* (http://www.nwpressbooks.com/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=493)

*Book listing on Amazon.com:* http://www.amazon.com/dp/0936085304/?tag=writingforu06-20

*Chuck Palahniuk's comments:* But that one slow afternoon, I wrote a seven-page short story called _Fight Club_. It was the first real story I ever sold. An anthology called _The Pursuit of Happiness_, published by Blue Heron Press, bought it for fifty bucks. In the first edition the publishers, Dennis and Linni Stovall, printed every copy with the wrong title on the spine, and the cost of reprinting bankrupted their small press. Today, they've sold every copy. Those printed and misprinted. Mostly to people looking for that original short story that has since become chapter six of the book, _Fight Club_. — Chuck Palahniuk, _Fight Club: A Novel_, Afterword

Chuck didn't acquire his agent (Ed Hibbert) until after _Fight Club_ began to draw the attention of _20th Century Fox_. :encouragement:


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## shadowwalker

Apex, I really think you need to a) check your facts, and b) supply some backup for your statements, and c) note when you're cherry-picking statements. Victoria Strauss (who has, indeed, published with _trade _publishers - don't know where you get this "standard" thing), did not say “Just under 50% sold directly to their publishers.” and let that stand. She went on to state: 





> "Does this contradict the idea that an agent is essential for a first novel sale to an advance-paying publisher?
> 
> Not really. The results look different if you consider the decade in which the books were sold. Author Steven Saus's more detailed analysis of Jim's data reveals that, while direct-to-publisher sales outnumbered agented sales 55% to 45% in the 1980's, by the 2000's direct-to-publisher sales had dropped to 27%, and agented sales had jumped to 67%."



You list five authors who supposedly got 6 figure advances for their first novels, but give no way at all to verify your information, and then act as if that's proof that it's "not uncommon". 

I would also like to contest your statement that small presses (not the Big 5) take lesser quality books. This is nonsense. They are merely smaller companies, and the quality of their selections varies as greatly as the number of them out there.

You have a habit of tossing statements and numbers around without citations, and stating opinion as if they were fact, and quite frankly, some of those statements are so blatantly incorrect that I just don't trust most of what you state. If you can't back up your 'facts' and figures, why should anyone believe what you're saying?


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## Apex

Shadow,
I have said many time on this forum, I am not trying to change how writers conduct their business of writing. Those who read my post also have a computer, and it only takes seconds to google something. I write most days. If I spent most f my time going back in time to find data I would get very little done. Take some time and google things. You seem to have more free time than most. Has your path given you a good reward?


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## shadowwalker

Apex said:


> Shadow,
> I have said many time on this forum, I am not trying to change how writers conduct their business of writing. Those who read my post also have a computer, and it only takes seconds to google something. I write most days. If I spent most f my time going back in time to find data I would get very little done. Take some time and google things. You seem to have more free time than most. Has your path given you a good reward?



So in other words, you will make up whatever you want and people are supposed to spend time proving or disproving for you. There's a word for that - laziness. Also pomposity. You make erroneous statements and ignore the fact that some may actually believe you know what you're talking about. How is that in any way, shape, or form helpful to your fellow writers?

As to my free time, I happen to be very good at time management - which also means I have time to research my statements so I don't mislead other people. I'm also willing to acknowledge new data and change my opinions when they are based on erroneous/outdated information. Most of us on this forum do this, because we're interested in helping others, not enlarging our egos.


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## Kyle R

As literary agent Janet Reid recently said: "Words are your business. Use them correctly." 

There will usually be someone who knows about (and has experience with) whatever it is you're talking about online. 

This is especially true on a site full of writers. Many members here have experience dealing with the publishing industry.

Make sure what you're saying is factually accurate, otherwise prepare to be called on it. :encouragement:


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## movieman

Apex said:


> J. A. Konrath $600,000 +



A five-minute web search later:

http://jakonrath.blogspot.ca/2010/05/publishers-weekly-epic-fail.html

Konrath says he received an advance of $110,000 for his first _three_ books, and $125,000 for the next _three_ books. So that's an average of $37,500 per book. And that was nearly a decade ago.


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## movieman

Apex said:


> Well to start with, neither, agents, or publisher leave stuff sitting in a slush pile for two years.



The reason I mentioned two years was because I read a blog post a while back where a writer had just received a rejection letter from a publisher he'd completely forgotten he submitted the book to two years earlier. They can and do leave writers hanging for years, though admittedly that's rare.



> There has been very little real change in the standard industry since 2004.



Perhaps where you live, but there have been major changes in US publishing, and they're rippling out around the world as ebook adoption rises elsewhere, too.


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## Apex

movieman said:


> A five-minute web search later:
> 
> http://jakonrath.blogspot.ca/2010/05/publishers-weekly-epic-fail.html
> 
> Konrath says he received an advance of $110,000 for his first _three_ books, and $125,000 for the next _three_ books. So that's an average of $37,500 per book. And that was nearly a decade ago.



Hmmmm? Well now, Konrath said he sold his first book for $50, and is now saying the first three books for $110,000? Was he lying when he told the story about the $50 for the first book, or was he lying when he told the story about the $110,000 for the first three books?I’d go with the $110,000 story. After all, it’s the biggest lie that is always believed.
The writer(sic) who claimed he received a rejection two years after sending a query…I’m sure he was telling the truth also…right? 
There is a way to check things out. If a writer says they sold a book, check out the book. It will give the name of the publisher. From there you can find who the agent was. From there you can learn how the book did. You can even get figures on the advance, and if the book sold well, or was a flop. Those who sit back and shout, “Prove it, prove it,” just pour sour grapes into the dreams of new writers. I have always found checking things out for yourself is more rewarding. I do get things about writers wrong at times…because I have been told, or read facts which prove not be true, and did not fully check them out. I do so when I have a good reason to know. Check out the first two names...I know them.


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## shadowwalker

Figures on advances and sales figures are estimates at best. Most publishers (of any size) frown on their writers discussing financial issues, and sales figures are not generally open to the public.

As to Konrath's claims, he has a habit of "mis-remembering". Might want to check this out: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244666&highlight=Konrath


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## movieman

Konrath has apparently never claimed to have received a $600,000+ advance for his first novel, which was the point of my post; if he had made that much money, he'd probably still be writing for trade publishers. Nor, if a web search is to be believed, has he ever claimed he sold it for $50. He was a mid-list writer in his trade-publishing days, not a best-seller or non-seller, so $40k or so a book would have been quite normal in those days.


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## Apex

movieman said:


> Konrath has apparently never claimed to have received a $600,000+ advance for his first novel, which was the point of my post; if he had made that much money, he'd probably still be writing for trade publishers. Nor, if a web search is to be believed, has he ever claimed he sold it for $50. He was a mid-list writer in his trade-publishing days, not a best-seller or non-seller, so $40k or so a book would have been quite normal in those days.



$40K. What years were those?


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## Cran

Apex said:


> Hmmmm? *Well now, Konrath said he sold his first book for $50*, and is now saying the first three books for $110,000? Was he lying when he told the story about the $50 for the first book, or was he lying when he told the story about the $110,000 for the first three books?I’d go with the $110,000 story. After all, it’s the biggest lie that is always believed.
> The writer(sic) who claimed he received a rejection two years after sending a query…I’m sure he was telling the truth also…right?
> There is a way to check things out. If a writer says they sold a book, check out the book. It will give the name of the publisher. From there you can find who the agent was. From there you can learn how the book did. You can even get figures on the advance, and if the book sold well, or was a flop. Those who sit back and shout, “Prove it, prove it,” just pour sour grapes into the dreams of new writers. I have always found checking things out for yourself is more rewarding. I do get things about writers wrong at times…because I have been told, or read facts which prove not be true, and did not fully check them out. I do so when I have a good reason to know. Check out the first two names...I know them.



So now you're confusing Palahniuk with Konrath, and this after confusing Copyright with publishing rights; care to drop yourself any deeper in it?


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## Apex

Cran said:


> So now you're confusing Palahniuk with Konrath, and this after confusing Copyright with publishing rights; care to drop yourself any deeper in it?



Yeah, somehow I did put the two names in the wrong place. Thank you for pointing it out. Just turn the two names around...the statement still stands.

As to Copyright with publishing rights: You sell the publishing rights to a publisher. You can not sell the same story to two seperate publishers...that falls under copy right law.
You can sell HC, SC, Foreign rights, etc, to different publishers. You can not sell the same rights to more than one publisher...All this falls under copy right law. Copy right law is a legal term. Yes the author owns the copy right, but is he/she sells the publishing rights. He/she can not sell those rights again to a different publisher using the same form.


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## Cran

Apex said:


> Yeah, somehow I did put the two names in the wrong place. Thank you for pointing it out. Just turn the two names around...the statement still stands.


What? Your rant about Konrath lying? It doesn't stand if you swap the name. It's meaningless handwaving that would have no place in the discussion other than you brought it in.



> As to Copyright with publishing rights: You sell the publishing rights to a publisher. You can not sell the same story to two seperate publishers...that falls under copy right law.
> You can sell HC, SC, Foreign rights, etc, to different publishers. You can not sell the same rights to more than one publisher...All this falls under copy right law. Copy right law is a legal term. Yes the author owns the copy right, but is he/she sells the publishing rights. He/she can not sell those rights again to a different publisher using the same form.


Again, no one talked about selling the same rights twice, except you. 


> If Palahniuk sold the rights to _Blue Heron Press_ for $50, he  could not have used it in chapter 6 of fight clup.(Copy right law.)They  would have hung hin in court by his heels. Once you sell to a publisher,  you do not have the right to use it in other works. I don't know who  wrote that story, I would like a link to it. Did he have an agent for  that work? Does not sound like it.


The number of works that have been sold twice or more to different publishers, serialised in magazines, novelised from series, collected essays, expanded stories from shorts or novellas, might surprise you, but it is a common practice that goes back at least two centuries. Some novels of HG Wells and Jules Verne first saw the light of day as short stories and series in magazines before publication as standalone books. 

Now, you cannot sell *first rights* to two publishers - first only happens once; it's funny that way - and you cannot sell to another publisher _for the duration of the contract term_ if your existing publisher has *exclusive rights*. After that contract term has expired, or if the publishing rights are non-exclusive, you can sell to whom you damn well please, and stick your law suits, because like your rant about Konrath lying, they wouldn't stand up.


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## Apex

Cran said:


> What? Your rant about Konrath lying? It doesn't stand if you swap the name. It's meaningless handwaving that would have no place in the discussion other than you brought it in.
> 
> 
> Again, no one talked about selling the same rights twice, except you.
> 
> The number of works that have been sold twice or more to different publishers, serialised in magazines, novelised from series, collected essays, expanded stories from shorts or novellas, might surprise you, but it is a common practice that goes back at least two centuries. Some novels of HG Wells and Jules Verne first saw the light of day as short stories and series in magazines before publication as standalone books.
> 
> Now, you cannot sell *first rights* to two publishers - first only happens once; it's funny that way - and you cannot sell to another publisher _for the duration of the contract term_ if your existing publisher has *exclusive rights*. After that contract term has expired, or if the publishing rights are non-exclusive, you can sell to whom you damn well please, and stick your law suits, because like your rant about Konrath lying, they wouldn't stand up.



If you sell all, or part of a story to two publishers, for say paper back. You can only sell to one publisher the rigts to print paper back. If you sell to a publisher for paper back only. Yes, you can sell the same story to Hard cover, or magazine, etc.
The person in queston said this was a book. If he sold one the rights to print HC, and the other SC he is safe. If he sold both the same rights...he is in a world of hurt. First rights thing in a court of law, must be for money, or goods. If I post a story on this forum, I have not lost first rights. Yes I know, a billion writers have made claim you do...that is not so. You can find court cased to bak this up. My comment was not a rant. I was just passing on info. Perhaps I should not make comments on this forum?


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## InstituteMan

Apex said:


> You can only sell to one publisher the rigts to print paper back. If you sell to a publisher for paper back only. Yes, you can sell the same story to Hard cover, or magazine, etc.



I can sell the same rights as many times as I want so long as they are non-exclusive, at least assuming there are buyers for those non-exclusive rights. Copyrights can be divided as many ways and as many times as the owner and the assignee/licensee choose in their contracts.


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## shadowwalker

Apex said:


> You can find court cased to bak this up.



No - _you _do it, for once.


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## Apex

shadowwalker said:


> No - _you _do it, for once.



No.


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## Cran

Apex said:


> If you sell all, or part of a story to two publishers, for say paper back. You can only sell to one publisher the rigts to print paper back. If you sell to a publisher for paper back only. Yes, you can sell the same story to Hard cover, or magazine, etc.
> The person in queston said this was a book.


No, the person in question said it was a short story, which later became a chapter in a novel, and said the short story was sold to a publisher for $50. The writer has no control over how, or even if, the publisher publishes that short story once sold. The form of rights or details of the contract were not mentioned. 



> My comment was not a rant. I was just passing on info. Perhaps I should not make comments on this forum?


It was, you weren't, and yes, to salvage what credibility you might have left, perhaps you should not.


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## Apex

Cran said:


> No, the person in question said it was a short story, which later became a chapter in a novel, and said the short story was sold to a publisher for $50. The writer has no control over how, or even if, the publisher publishes that short story once sold. The form of rights or details of the contract were not mentioned.
> 
> 
> It was, you weren't, and yes, to salvage what credibility you might have left, perhaps you should not.



What you try to reflect as a rant is not. As to my  credibility, it has been established for a number of years. What has established yours? Perhaps as a cab driver one of your passengers, or even you have been rejected by standard publishers, and it has left you wanting to strike back at anyone within the industry?


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## Terry D

Apex said:


> What you try to reflect as a rant is not. As to my  credibility, it has been established for a number of years. What has established yours? Perhaps as a cab driver one of your passengers, or even you have been rejected by standard publishers, and it has left you wanting to strike back at anyone within the industry?



With all due respect, Cran doesn't need me to defend him, but, as a member of this site I'm going to take this open-thread opportunity to put my opinion about this line of discussion on record.

Credibility is not something you own, it's not something you keep on the shelf and take down whenever you feel the need to flaunt it. Credibility is earned on a daily basis. As owner of this site, and long time contributor prior to that, Cran's credibility here is well established. Yours is self-proclaimed and, frankly, based on the evidence in your posts, lacking in substance.


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## bazz cargo

Why has no-one mentioned the industry standard way into publishing? https://www.writersandartists.co.uk/


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## spartan928

Going back to the OP. It's a fact that on average, over 1,200 fiction titles are self-published daily. That's right, every single day. Out of those 40-50,000 books how many are earning their authors over $100,000/year? I don't know for certain, but I have a high degree of confidence that it's a small number. I'd like to simply balance the idea you present, which itself is encouraging, with the brutal fact that any example of self-publishing success is not the norm. In fact, it is highly, highly exceptional. Self-publishing is an option. OK, so what? The examples are what they are, but truth is, becoming your own publisher and having dreams of making a living off it is an enormously tough prospect regardless of the quality of writing or sales and marketing savvy. Traditional publishing still rules the field for books that support authors financially and is going to forever in my opinion.


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## InstituteMan

spartan928 said:


> Going back to the OP. It's a fact that on average, over 1,200 fiction titles are self-published daily. That's right, every single day. Out of those 40-50,000 books how many are earning their authors over $100,000/year? I don't know for certain, but I have a high degree of confidence that it's a small number. I'd like to simply balance the idea you present, which itself is encouraging, with the brutal fact that any example of self-publishing success is not the norm. In fact, it is highly, highly exceptional. Self-publishing is an option. OK, so what? The examples are what they are, but truth is, becoming your own publisher and having dreams of making a living off it is an enormously tough prospect regardless of the quality of writing or sales and marketing savvy. Traditional publishing still rules the field for books that support authors financially and is going to forever in my opinion.



Not to stir the self-publishing pot, but one thing to bear in mind about those extraordinarily high numbers is that a lot of them are yahoos. If you choose to self-publish, you help your chanced right off the bat by not being a yahoo. Get beta reading. Get editing. Promote your work every way you can. Build up a catalogue. Be patient. If you do all of those things you still probably won't ever be making $100k a year from your writing, but your odds of finding that kind of success will be far greater than for the typical self-publisher.


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## shadowwalker

bazz cargo said:


> Why has no-one mentioned the industry standard way into publishing? https://www.writersandartists.co.uk/



???


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## InstituteMan

Terry D said:


> With all due respect, Cran doesn't need me to defend him, but, as a member of this site I'm going to take this open-thread opportunity to put my opinion about this line of discussion on record.
> 
> Credibility is not something you own, it's not something you keep on the shelf and take down whenever you feel the need to flaunt it. Credibility is earned on a daily basis. As owner of this site, and long time contributor prior to that, Cran's credibility here is well established. Yours is self-proclaimed and, frankly, based on the evidence in your posts, lacking in substance.



Cran doesn't need me to defend him either, but if I were to EVER find myself thinking contrary to Can, be the matter large or small, I would at least reconsider my opinion. I would never, ever start my year by denigrating his skills, talent or experience. To do so would only reflect poorly upon myself.


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## Apex

spartan928 said:


> Going back to the OP. It's a fact that on average, over 1,200 fiction titles are self-published daily. That's right, every single day. Out of those 40-50,000 books how many are earning their authors over $100,000/year? I don't know for certain, but I have a high degree of confidence that it's a small number. I'd like to simply balance the idea you present, which itself is encouraging, with the brutal fact that any example of self-publishing success is not the norm. In fact, it is highly, highly exceptional. Self-publishing is an option. OK, so what? The examples are what they are, but truth is, becoming your own publisher and having dreams of making a living off it is an enormously tough prospect regardless of the quality of writing or sales and marketing savvy. Traditional publishing still rules the field for books that support authors financially and is going to forever in my opinion.



Ditto.

Those who spend hours writing, get a few rejections from agent, then self-pub for .99 cents a copy, and make near nothing seem to blame the standard industry, and throw stones at those who say, "Get an agent, and don't give up."  Traditional publishing is not going away, and it will soon take over the ebook market with good books...it has thousands in back-log. It can, and will sell downloads of well known authors for 99 cents. 
Readers will buy from good publishers with named authors, and the rest will fall away. And yes, new writers can be a part of this...learn more about writing, submit to an agent, and never give up, or follow those who will be left on the side lines.


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## Cran

Apex said:


> What you try to reflect as a rant is not. As to my  credibility, it has been established for a number of years. What has established yours? Perhaps as a cab driver one of your passengers, or even you have been rejected by standard publishers, and it has left you wanting to strike back at anyone within the industry?


I'm sorry, what? 

I understand it's too late now, but ... why would I want to strike back at an industry, or anyone it it, that has done me nothing but good for decades? 

In case there is any doubt, let me state right here for the record, *I fully support the standard publishing industry, and all standard publishers*, especially those who took a chance and gave me jobs over the years. 

I will further state that, although I do not support vanity publishers, and am less than impressed with many self-published works on offer, *I do also fully support the self-publishing services that provide opportunities for new and untried writers to test their works.*

Why that is relevant to the exchange now passed is something I might have to ponder ... once I stop laughing.


ETA - Spartan - 


> Going back to the OP. It's a fact that on average, over 1,200 fiction  titles are self-published daily. That's right, every single day. Out of  those *40-50,000* books how many are earning their authors over  $100,000/year?


An order of magnitude short - at >1200 per day, every day, the annual total is *>438, 000*.


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## movieman

InstituteMan said:


> Not to stir the self-publishing pot, but one thing to bear in mind about those extraordinarily high numbers is that a lot of them are yahoos.



Also, many of those 1200 ebooks per day are short stories, particularly now Kindle Unlimited means someone borrowing your 2,500 word short story and reading the first page nets you $1.30. I've seen a number of people on other writing forums who claim to be publishing a new erotia short story every day, for example, and making a living from it. KU allows those in the program to read as many erotica shorts as they can manage in a month, so it's become a gold rush for some writers.


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## spartan928

Cran said:


> ETA - Spartan -
> An order of magnitude short - at >1200 per day, every day, the annual total is *>438, 000*.



Yes, Cran sorry for the typo. I think some of the feelings that people in the traditional publishing world and readership community is expressed quite succinctly here;

No I don't want to read your self-published book

Look, I'm not a Self-pub basher by any means. But I see this mentality all over the web about how such and such made $100k self-publishing and you can too! It starts to smell like hucksterism. There is so much "indie" stuff out there that I tend to ignore it all, and I think more and more consumers do too. I have too many books to read and too little time, so I spend it on authors I get recommended to me by friends and sites I trust (ie Goodreads, literary mags, WF, whatever). Go ahead and self-publish, that's great. Yet do it with eyes really wide open. First, the writing must be stellar and second, the road is monumental because you have to be a pro at marketing, sales and editing too. That's a lot of stuff to master, but again, go for it! I believe it's also good to balance expectations with a serious reality check. 

Also, the stats I quoted are accurate and can be verified through a company called Bowker. Over 391,000 self-pubbed ISBN book titles in 2013 with a growth trend upwards of 40% (haven't seen 2014 data release yet). Although I don't have access to the full reports, I would bet most of these are novel length works and not necessarily ISBN's generated for a short story. To me, that only makes sense for Amazon KU, but your probably right movieman, that's a pretty creative way to get some $ for your work.


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## movieman

spartan928 said:


> Although I don't have access to the full reports, I would bet most of these are novel length works and not necessarily ISBN's generated for a short story.



Every short story that uses Smashwords for distribution has an ISBN. Novels exclusive to Amazon probably don't. So, while they're indicative of the number of self-published books released in a year, they'll only give a ballpark estimate now most (all?) ebook retailers no longer require ISBNs.

Also, mine have Canadian ISBNs, which presumably won't show up there.


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## InstituteMan

spartan928 said:


> I think some of the feelings that people in the traditional publishing world and readership community is expressed quite succinctly here;
> 
> No I don't want to read your self-published book
> 
> Look, I'm not a Self-pub basher by any means. But I see this mentality all over the web about how such and such made $100k self-publishing and you can too! It starts to smell like hucksterism. There is so much "indie" stuff out there that I tend to ignore it all, and I think more and more consumers do too. I have too many books to read and too little time, so I spend it on authors I get recommended to me by friends and sites I trust (ie Goodreads, literary mags, WF, whatever). Go ahead and self-publish, that's great. Yet do it with eyes really wide open. First, the writing must be stellar and second, the road is monumental because you have to be a pro at marketing, sales and editing too. That's a lot of stuff to master, but again, go for it! I believe it's also good to balance expectations with a serious reality check.



Excellent link, Spartan, thanks. 

While I am quite in favor of self-publishing, it's not like self-pub is easier than the traditional route. Truth be told, self-pub is harder for the author than traditional publishing, at least assuming the writer wants quality on par with traditional publishing. In that case, self-publishing is quite a lot harder than traditional for the writer who now has to wear a lot of hats(or hire people to wear those hats).

And once an author does all that work to self-pub, their work will almost assuredly be caught in a pile of other self-published dreck. One of the great things about the traditional route is that it bestows credibility in the eyes of most readers right away, not to mention superior discoverability for both literal and metaphorical bookstore browsers.

The appeal to self-pub (at least for me) is that at worst it's a way of actively waiting (and honing my skills and getting real world feedback) for the "big break" from other stories I have sent around. Heck, I figure that any modest success I have on my own will actually increase my odds of getting "lucky" later. It's not like I have any shortage of writing material, so I'm not worried that I will have squandered my first publishing rights on my own.

Plus, the self-pub route gives me another chance to find success, with advantageous royalty terms to boot. Admittedly, those terms tend to be on works with little or no physical distribution and only whatever publicity I can generate on my own, but it's still better that than letting the stories rot. Like I said, I have lots of stories.

I doubt that I will become rich self-publishing, but it's not like the time I spend starting on that hobby is costing me the opportunity to get rich doing something else. Even if that were the case, it would take a lot of money to convince me to give up doing something I enjoy. 

Alas, many wannabe writers seem to think of self-publishing as a get-rich-quick scheme, and those never really work out.


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## shadowwalker

Personally, I think there are two major problems that potential self-publishers don't understand. One, they believe all the hype from people who tell them exactly what they want to hear. Unfortunately, there are people out there who have made as much or more money selling books about self-publishing than they have actually selling novels. (I personally know of one such person who has become a self-publishing 'expert' - and he's written and published exactly ONE book - about self-publishing.) And that leads to the second problem - not understanding that just because one _can _doesn't mean one _should_. Yes, it can take less than an hour to actually get your book out there after it's 'finished'. Yes, it can cost just a few dollars to do so. Does that mean you should publish within hours of finishing? Does that mean you should spend just a couple hours finding a stock photo for the cover, or fiddling with PhotoShop? Or that proofreading means it's edited? Or that if readers find errors you can just fix them and put out a revision?

Self-publishing can be quick and easy, but it shouldn't be. This is your reputation, and, if you're a serious writer, you shouldn't be going at it haphazardly or taking the 'easy way'. Self-publishing should be demanding and hard work, so that what the reader picks up the first time is the very best you can make it - from the words inside to the blurb on the outside.


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