# How to Handle Racism in Dialogue (2 Viewers)



## Alanzie (Oct 30, 2022)

I need some insight here.  My story takes place in in 1871, a mere six years after the American Civil War.  One of my main characters is a doctor, a black man who had been enslaved on a Louisiana plantation.  I know the timeframe is short, to go from freed slave to doctor in six years, but it is possible.

The problem I'm having is with my dialogue.  There are two characters who call this doctor a very racist and derogatory epithet.  This is a word that they, in their hateful and ignorant ways, would have called him, given the circumstances and political turmoil that the Civil War and its aftermath had produced, along with the fact that they were racists.  The word is not uttered often in the story, less than a half dozen times in what will probably be a 100K(ish) book, but it is also a word that I, in my 65 years, have never uttered.  I don't think any further explanation of said word is necessary.  I'm trying to decide if I should leave the word in.
ALSO​Has anyone who has written a character not of your own ethnicity sought a read thru from an individual of the same ethnicity as your character (sensitivity reader)?  What was your experience?  I want to be as respectful, accurate and honest as I can regarding this character.


----------



## Banespawn (Oct 30, 2022)

If they would use the word, use the word. They aren't you. As long as the story isn't written in such as way as to try to justify the behavior, it's fine. 

I recently saw a video where Jamie Foxx was talking about Leonardo DiCaprio in Django Unchained, and how he had difficulty saying the N word. Samuel Jackson told him: Get over it, MFer. 

We are writing characters who are not us. Sometimes they are racists. Sometimes they are terrible, despicable people who rape, torture and murder, because that's who they are. These people exist in real life. Don't be afraid to write about them honestly.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron (Oct 30, 2022)

Banespawn said:


> If they would use the word, use the word. They aren't you. As long as the story isn't written in such as way as to try to justify the behavior, it's fine.
> 
> I recently saw a video where Jamie Foxx was talking about Leonardo DiCaprio in Django Unchained, and how he had difficulty saying the N word. Samuel Jackson told him: Get over it, MFer.
> 
> We are writing characters who are not us. Sometimes they are racists. Sometimes they are terrible, despicable people who rape, torture and murder, because that's who they are. These people exist in real life. Don't be afraid to write about them honestly.



This. All of this.

I also struggled with this in one of the rough drafts I wrote. Racist, sexist, and homophobic dialog and characters. I've handled it exactly as @Banespawn stated. You're not glorifying or justifying their behavior, just presenting it.


A.C.


----------



## indianroads (Oct 30, 2022)

In Moonscape, my FMC immigrated to the US from Thailand. Fortunately, I trained with a family from that country years ago, and their accent still lingers in my ears. FMC was 7 years old when she arrived, and so can speak like native Americans do - however her former partner committed suicide, which scarred her badly. As such, she uses her mother's accent as a way to keep people at bay. 
Her first words to the MMC is after he has crashed landed on the Moon. He's wrapped in straps that keep him in place when she opens the hatch and says: _"Ha-ha. You look funny hanging there. You want come outside now?" _
She eventually returns to her American accent once she becomes comfortable with MMC.


----------



## Llyralen (Oct 31, 2022)

Alanzie said:


> ​Has anyone who has written a character not of your own ethnicity sought a read thru from an individual of the same ethnicity as your character (sensitivity reader)?  What was your experience?  I want to be as respectful, accurate and honest as I can regarding this character.


I haven't hired a sensitivity reader yet, I think it would be a great experience.
I had a really good experience on another forum with a person from the ethnicity I was writing about who listened to my worry and was able to reinforce my thinking  and my research about how to handle the thing I was worried about well.  Thank heavens they messaged me!  The people not from that ethnicity didn't understand at all.  I concluded that a combo of extensive research into the history and having a listening heart that wants to treat people who have been maligned with respect can be a combo that made the experience of reaching out a wonderful one.  I don't think I could have gone forward without that bit of reassurance from him that he thought I had the attitude and the research to do okay.

I saw a really helpful article on this a while back that also helped me feel like I could move forward with confidence because of my research and background. I will hopefully get a minute to dig it up.  

I heard a host on Writing Excuses a while back talk about what he learned from his Sensitivity Reader. It sounded like such a good experience for him,  as I've heard him bring it up often and there were big things he was missing from the culture that he got info on that in hind-sight he was like "Duh! Of course it was like this...but I would have never thought of it on my own."

At any rate, I hope to have experiences with sensitivity readers in the future-- I hope to be able to pay them-- and what I've already experienced by way of reaching out and asking has been deeply meaningful.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs (Oct 31, 2022)

'How to handle racism in dialogue'. That's an odd question when you consider it. If the character would say it then it's said. It's as simple as that. Maybe avoid using the derogative term every other sentence, but if the scene/circumstance calls for it, don't hold back. There are always going to be people who take exception and don't consider context but you can do nothing about that. Recently, on a forum with a thread on your first three lines, I posted this:

_The six-panelled, mahogany door phased out, its thrum fading in to the electro-voiced sentence the brunette had heard countless times before: ‘Welcome home, Simone.’ Even though she’d heard it ad nauseam, she obliged with an upturning of her lips, but the smile quickly sank. She resented the auto-reflexes her mother had instilled back on the farm._

The very first response said that to call a women 'the brunette' was sexist. Even out of context I'd say that statement was extreme, but in context (baring in mind Simone feels dehumanised) it conveys exactly what was intended. I simply hit like and moved on. I know for a fact though, because of the overall tone of the comment, that if I explained why I'd used 'the brunette', that poster would still find a problem with it, and what's more, because of the site and other things I've read, if I defended it I'd likely get banned.

Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do. This is such a situation.


----------



## CyberWar (Oct 31, 2022)

Just get over yourself and write the dialogue like a proper unashamed racist would speak. If any snowflakes have a problem with that, let them cry a river. It's not your duty to censor yourself to avoid hurting their touchy little feelings or educate them if they are too stupid to understand the context.


----------



## Parabola (Oct 31, 2022)

Yeah. I had a similar issue with my short story "Snowflake Concentration Camp" where easily offended white people get enslaved (now I'm a white guy, so relax). Anyway, they get called "toasties" (like toaster strudels with the white frosting). Now, considering that it fits with my alternate timeline, it's totally okay to called them "toasties."

"Look at that toastie."
"Yeah. The whiter the berry, the bluer the filling."


----------



## TL Murphy (Oct 31, 2022)

If you did not use the word your story would not ring true. These times were not those times.

And yes, I've written racist dialogue and given it to a person I respect from the offended ethnic group. It worked out fine and she gave me good advice.


----------



## Explosia (Oct 31, 2022)

Alanzie said:


> Has anyone who has written a character not of your own ethnicity sought a read thru from an individual of the same ethnicity as your character (sensitivity reader)? What was your experience? I want to be as respectful, accurate and honest as I can regarding this character.


My first instinct would be to maybe reference the word without actually using it... But ultimately, yes, I'd ask a sensitivity reader to read over at least those scenes. Ideally more than one reader would be great, but at the very least one if you can.

In my big WIP, I have a character who is Puerto Rican, and she's a practicing witch. I haven't had a sensitivity reader look at her scenes yet, but I do have a beta reader who has asked her Puerto Rican friend a few questions for me. Already, I've gotten some great points of feedback on that, and I'm very grateful for it!

Also, just gonna throw this out there:  Being mindful of these kinds of issues is not kowtowing to special snowflakes... It's maintaining a certain level of respect for what is likely to be a percentage of your readership. And I think endeavering to maintain that respect for your readers is admirable and absolutely something worth striving for.


----------



## PiP (Oct 31, 2022)

Movies don't tiptoe around the issue in dialogue so why should writers? It's all about context.


----------



## Llyralen (Oct 31, 2022)

Kent_Jacobs said:


> 'How to handle racism in dialogue'. That's an odd question when you consider it. If the character would say it then it's said. It's as simple as that. Maybe avoid using the derogative term every other sentence, but if the scene/circumstance calls for it, don't hold back. There are always going to be people who take exception and don't consider context but you can do nothing about that. Recently, on a forum with a thread on your first three lines, I posted this:
> 
> _The six-panelled, mahogany door phased out, its thrum fading in to the electro-voiced sentence the brunette had heard countless times before: ‘Welcome home, Simone.’ Even though she’d heard it ad nauseam, she obliged with an upturning of her lips, but the smile quickly sank. She resented the auto-reflexes her mother had instilled back on the farm._
> 
> ...


I think we have to be careful with descriptions. This signaled sexism to me as well, hopefully I can explain why.

 “The brunette” are words usually used by someone sexually interested in someone or the word has sexual overtones anyway. It’s not a term usually used with older people or children and not often for men even, unless trying to convey the attraction felt by the person describing this person. If you’re not sure of this, just put “he/him” pronouns in there and see how you would use different language because you probably would want a different signal to come across to your readers. The next descriptor focuses on her lips. This all signals that the person viewing the woman (author or otherwise)is interested and focusing on her physical attractiveness.  Even this early, the sexual overtones show a disproportionate interest in that aspect of this woman.

If signaling that the character is attractive to the person describing her is what you want to convey, then that’s what happened.  To a woman herself, her physical attractiveness is just one aspect of her— just like how a man’s physical attractiveness is a part of him but not disproportionately important.  Often men see a woman’s sexual attractiveness in relation to himself as the important thing about a woman.  If this is the context in which most females in the story are described and continue to be deacribed, then I usually get strong “this is sexist” vibes. I would not read a story like this. 

I hope this makes sense.


----------



## Alanzie (Oct 31, 2022)

CyberWar said:


> Just get over yourself and write the dialogue like a proper unashamed racist would speak. If any snowflakes have a problem with that, let them cry a river. It's not your duty to censor yourself to avoid hurting their touchy little feelings or educate them if they are too stupid to understand the context.


Get over myself???  Why, because I want my novel to be a success?  Because I want to be accurate without being offensive?

I have nothing to 'get over'.


----------



## indianroads (Oct 31, 2022)

CyberWar said:


> Just get over yourself and write the dialogue like a proper unashamed racist would speak. If any snowflakes have a problem with that, let them cry a river. It's not your duty to censor yourself to avoid hurting their touchy little feelings or educate them if they are too stupid to understand the context.


I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area, and there were years of my life that most of my friends were of different ethnicities. I include such people in my novels - to not do that out of fear of getting the characters wrong is a form of segregation.

Be respectful and inclusive (without quotas) and write the people that show up in your story.


----------



## CyberWar (Oct 31, 2022)

Alanzie said:


> Get over myself???  Why, because I want my novel to be a success?  Because I want to be accurate without being offensive?
> 
> I have nothing to 'get over'.


Thing is, these days just about anything you say or write can be interpreted as "offensive" by someone. There literally seems to be a whole class of professionally-offended people who make it their business to attack others over being "insufficiently sensitive" and getting offended on other's behalf. If you start pandering to their sort, not only you do yourself a big disservice, but encourage that kind of behavior on their part in the future.

As I already said before, if somebody is so sensitive as to get butthurt over the use of ethnic slurs in a historical fiction book, that's his problem, not yours. People like that need to grow the hell up and accept that the world doesn't revolve around their feelings. The world today needs more "offensive", not less.


----------



## Taylor (Oct 31, 2022)

Explosia said:


> Also, just gonna throw this out there:  Being mindful of these kinds of issues is not kowtowing to special snowflakes... It's maintaining a certain level of respect for what is likely to be a percentage of your readership. And I think endeavering to maintain that respect for your readers is admirable and absolutely something worth striving for.


100% what @Explosia said.  It's commendable that @Alanzie is exploring their options.  If it's fiction, not a historical account, there is room for creative license.  And as fiction writers, we are in the business of entertaining.  For me, I would try to prevent offending, even if I failed at it.

If it's the word I'm thinking of, African American laborers adopted it for themselves as a social identity, and it was somewhat derogatory if others used it towards them. By the mid nineteenth century, the term was clearly used to offend.  You could consider adding a piece of dialogue that educates your reader on the origin of the word and its usage.  In this case, you have a great opportunity as he is a doctor, so, perhaps he corrects someone on the usage being that he's not a laborer.  Then this person has a change in their mentality about the word.  And you could have a follow-up conversation when they educate another white person.

Harper Lee does this in _To Kill a Mockingbird. _  I won't quote the scenes here, but they are on page 85 and 124 of the ebook.

To me, this is what being a true artist is.  Pushing yourself to break the paradigm.  Anyone can charge through like a bull in a china shop.


----------



## Alanzie (Oct 31, 2022)

Taylor said:


> 100% what @Explosia said.  It's commendable that @Alanzie is exploring their options.  If it's fiction, not a historical account, there is room for creative license.  And as fiction writers, we are in the business of entertaining.  For me, I would try to prevent offending, even if I failed at it.
> 
> If it's the word I'm thinking of, African American laborers adopted it for themselves as a social identity, and it was somewhat derogatory if others used it towards them. By the late nineteenth century, the term was clearly used to offend.  You could consider adding a piece of dialogue that educates your reader on the origin of the word and its usage.  In this case, you have a great opportunity as he is a doctor, so, perhaps he corrects someone on the usage being that he's not a laborer.  Then this person has a change in their mentality about the word.  And you could have a follow-up conversation when they educate another white person.
> 
> ...


It is the word you are thinking of, and I also did the research and discovered it was a term for social identity.  What a wonderful idea for my character to turn it around on the offender and 'educate' that person.


----------



## TL Murphy (Oct 31, 2022)

Taylor said:


> You could consider adding a piece of dialogue that educates your reader on the origin of the word and its usage.  In this case, you have a great opportunity as he is a doctor, so, perhaps he corrects someone on the usage being that he's not a laborer.  Then this person has a change in their mentality about the word.  And you could have a follow-up conversation when they educate another white person.
> 
> Harper Lee does this in _To Kill a Mockingbird. _  I won't quote the scenes here, but they are on page 85 and 124 of the ebook.
> 
> To me, this is what being a true artist is.  Pushing yourself to break the paradigm.  Anyone can charge through like a bull in a china shop.


This would work if the historical setting falls in a time that is compatible with the evolution of the word.  Words mean different things in different times.  Words that we consider racist today may not have been racist in 1871, just 6 years after the end of the Civil War. On the other hand, the word’s usage may have been evolving very quickly at that time and the passage suggested above may be appropriate.  But some historical research is probably a good idea before you put anachronistic dialogue in your story.


----------



## Liberty1976 (Oct 31, 2022)

Alanzie said:


> I need some insight here.  My story takes place in in 1871, a mere six years after the American Civil War.  One of my main characters is a doctor, a black man who had been enslaved on a Louisiana plantation.  I know the timeframe is short, to go from freed slave to doctor in six years, but it is possible.
> 
> The problem I'm having is with my dialogue.  There are two characters who call this doctor a very racist and derogatory epithet.  This is a word that they, in their hateful and ignorant ways, would have called him, given the circumstances and political turmoil that the Civil War and its aftermath had produced, along with the fact that they were racists.  The word is not uttered often in the story, less than a half dozen times in what will probably be a 100K(ish) book, but it is also a word that I, in my 65 years, have never uttered.  I don't think any further explanation of said word is necessary.  I'm trying to decide if I should leave the word in.
> ALSO​Has anyone who has written a character not of your own ethnicity sought a read thru from an individual of the same ethnicity as your character (sensitivity reader)?  What was your experience?  I want to be as respectful, accurate and honest as I can regarding this character.



I would keep the word in. Being politically correct won't invoke the same emotion you want the reader to feel.  If you want to put the reader in the shoes of the character, dancing around the ugliness causing that character pain isn't going to work. It will feel better when your character overcomes the racism and oppression.  Political correctness didn't exist in 1871 and in my opinion, has no place in period story telling.


----------



## Yumi Koizumi (Oct 31, 2022)

Alanzie said:


> This is a word that they, in their hateful and ignorant ways, would have called him, given the circumstances and political turmoil that the Civil War and its aftermath had produced, along with the fact that they were racists.  The word is not uttered often in the story, less than a half dozen times in what will probably be a 100K(ish) book, but it is also a word that I, in my 65 years, have never uttered.  I don't think any further explanation of said word is necessary.  I'm trying to decide if I should leave the word in.


I'm all for the angel on your shoulder that asks for authenticity. If your story is set upon a backdrop you have recreated as best you can, the language should be as well. Where is the suspension of disbelief if we have to wade tediously through 21st century obfuscation?

This whole movement to soften our history shouldn't infect one's pursuit of accuracy. The public is fickle, but your story should be timeless, no?


----------



## Joker (Oct 31, 2022)

Hot take: racist people say the n-word.

News at 11.


----------



## JBF (Oct 31, 2022)

For lack of a better term, epithets (specifically racial or ethnic) color the story in which they appear.  They question the writer must answer first is whether that is necessary or beneficial to the story being told.  

If so, go forth without apology.


----------



## Matchu (Nov 1, 2022)

They think Jack & the Beanstalk has been with us for 1000s of years.

When it came to transcribing a version in the nineteenth century, one early text included a moralising sub-narrative, while the more successful version had none at all.


----------



## Llyralen (Nov 1, 2022)

Something I want to say that applies to both racism and sexism that has to be brought up is the importance of understanding how words can harm others who have already been maligned and suppressed.  Language is used to convey information about who is privileged and who can be done with as the other pleases without consequence.  I think the main thing for the author is being highly aware how we can harm.  If we are aware and want to show how people are harmed to those who have never really had to think about it, then that is a worthy cause in my opinion.  

It takes a great deal of putting yourself into the others’ shoes when it was your privilege to not have to think about it and when privileged society even encourages you to not think about it so that they can also continue thinking the same way and staying privileged. We need to listen to those who can be hurt how things are already hurting them— harm can be ubiquitous for them, so it is not always easy to explain how one word can hurt when it’s the attitude and situation behind it that is already hurting, if that makes sense.

I’m grateful for the listening here and also the writing!


----------



## Matchu (Nov 2, 2022)

S'pose...I'll take it out next time...

Tho' ...thinking on (it) would be a good 'challenge' writing sympathetic characters who, at the same time, harbour great prejudice.


----------



## Parabola (Nov 2, 2022)

Yes. I was thinking of writing a thing about a psychopath parent who skins his/her child and leaves them for dead. Then we discover how the psychopath dealt with religious abuse, and we shed tears for the 'real' victim, aka the wielder of the knife.

We gotta fight prejudice man. Murderers are people too.


----------



## Matchu (Nov 2, 2022)

That's interesting.   I was thinking about a story where we abolished nursing care and the elderly are put out on to the streets.  Like a zombie story meets Logan's Run.  Please don't steal that one.  Also, for the sake's of the thread, probably sprinkle some racists.  It is their own blonde-haired child, the racist baby, who is re-conditioned to lead the teams of community assassins driving the bin lorries - stuffed with old people scooped from the street corners. A multi-dimensional 'opera.'


----------



## Parabola (Nov 2, 2022)

Speaking of old people, my abuser villain turned victim, Blanche, is chastised by whatever agency that oversees children stuff. This prompts her to go into manipulative flashback mode, where she was whipped mercilessly while she picked all the lemons from the tree in her backyard. The lemons symbolize her later bitterness, of course.

Not a wet eye in the theater (it gets adapted to a movie obviously since by that point most Americans can't read). "By that point."


----------



## Matchu (Nov 2, 2022)

Enjoyed your lemons aspect tremendously.  

[but I shall stop posting a while coz risk of too silly until I make a big fat ass of myself, plus+, and won't sleep]


----------



## JBF (Nov 2, 2022)

NOTICE TO ALL:

As this discussion had begun to drift into of _sexism implicit, intentional, and otherwise_, I have split the thread.  The new discussion may be found *HERE*.  Henceforth, please keep replies to this thread pertinent to its stated purposes.  

Thanks,
JBF/tinfoil mod


----------



## Alanzie (Nov 2, 2022)

JBF said:


> NOTICE TO ALL:
> 
> As this discussion had begun to drift into of _sexism implicit, intentional, and otherwise_, I have split the thread.  The new discussion may be found *HERE*.  Henceforth, please keep replies to this thread pertinent to its stated purposes.
> 
> ...


Thanks, JBF.  I thought we were going a bit off the beaten path...plus, I never thought my simple post would have generated so much input.  I appreciate everyone's remarks.


----------



## JBF (Nov 2, 2022)

Alanzie said:


> Thanks, JBF.  I thought we were going a bit off the beaten path...plus, I never thought my simple post would have generated so much input.



Sir, this is WF....


----------



## AJ677 (Nov 3, 2022)

CyberWar said:


> Just get over yourself and write the dialogue like a proper unashamed racist would speak. If any snowflakes have a problem with that, let them cry a river. It's not your duty to censor yourself to avoid hurting their touchy little feelings or educate them if they are too stupid to understand the context.



I'm from an ethnic minority but would agree with the above. It is a mistake to assume that we all think alike just based on our skin colour or that the most loudmouthed and strident voices are the most representative. You shouldn't assume that what they say is gospel just because those are the voices you are most likely to hear. And you can't pander to those who looking to take offence.

I can turn on the TV and constantly hear people of my colour complaining that racism is a daily experience and that that's true for all from our ethnic background.

As someone who works in a science based profession, I would say that anyone takes supposed "lived experience" at face value should be forced to take a mandatory course on the scientific method. What they think is racism may be other things such as class prejudice. My lived experience is that the last time I can recall experiencing racism was more 20 yrs ago. A more fact-based statement is that my ethnicity earns more than the white population in my home nation and does better on almost every other metric of social well-being. The only recent prejudice I can recall is the assumption that I'm probably a doctor because of my skin colour and accent.

There is a quiet section of the population who are wary of speaking out despite functioning perfectly well in society without problems, despite our ethnicity.

The problem with pandering to sensitivity readers that they are likely to come from the most overly sensitive demographic. That's probably why they are in that role.

That's not to say that someone playing a similar role to a sensitivity reader can't have value but not in the way that they are generally utilised. An example I would give is the Richard Curtis/Danny Boyle comedy Yesterday, which I watched recently.  Both Curtis and Boyle are liberal and left leaning and, to their credit, attempted the very rare objective of truly colour blind casting of with a British Asian main character with an Asian family.

So well-meaning, so woke...and they got it so wrong. They essentially wrote the Asian family as a white British one, because that's what they knew, and got it so bizarrely wrong. There were _so many_ cultural errors (not just an Asian matriarch getting shamelessly drunk in front of friends and family but with the name Malik?!) that I watched with a perpetual cringe. An appropriate cultural advisor, like any other factual advisor, could simply have improved the quality of the art through ensuring accuracy. I was not _offended _though. *Why would I be when the writers were not maliciously intentioned?* It just made me sad that this obsession with diversity had overwhelmed common sense. I would have been perfectly happy with a white British main character.

A final point I'd like to make to illustrate the absurdity of this situation - I've nearly completed the first draft of my manuscript and I'm starting to worry that it might be criticised for lacking diversity. It so happens that all my characters are white because that's the way I visualised them. I don't what to change the characters in my mind's eye so what I've done to try to get round this is to change the hair colour and type of a character so that they are racially ambiguous (inspired by JK Rowling's 'back-racialisation').

It is absurd that I'm from an ethnic minority and should have to worry about such things.


----------



## Joker (Nov 3, 2022)

AJ677 said:


> I'm from an ethnic minority but would agree with the above. It is a mistake to assume that we all think alike just based on our skin colour or that the most loudmouthed and strident voices are the most representative. You shouldn't assume that what they say is gospel because those are the voices you are most likely to hear. And you can't pander to those who looking to take offence.
> 
> I can turn on the TV and constantly hear people of my colour complaining that racism is a daily occurrence and that's true for all from our ethnic background.
> 
> ...



I mean, it really depends on the setting, like I always say.

13th century Poland is going to be a lot less racially heterogenous than 2022 New York City.


----------



## Taylor (Nov 3, 2022)

AJ677 said:


> It is a mistake to assume that we all think alike just based on our skin colour or that the most loudmouthed and strident voices are the most representative. You shouldn't assume that what they say is gospel because those are the voices you are most likely to hear. And you can't pander to those who looking to take offence.





AJ677 said:


> An example I would give is the Richard Curtis/Danny Boyle comedy Yesterday, which I watched recently.  Both Curtis and Boyle are liberal and left leaning and, to their credit, attempted the very rare objective of truly colour blind casting of an Asian main character with an Asian family.
> 
> So well-meaning, so woke...and they got it so wrong. They essentially wrote the Asian family as a British one, because that's what they knew, and got it so bizarrely wrong.


I don't mean to be rude, but isn't this a contradiction with your claim above?  Are we to assume that all Asian and British families are the same, just based on "skin colour"?   And if only people who grew up in a culture can know that culture, then how can you say it was written as a British family?



AJ677 said:


> There were _so many_ cultural errors - (not just an Asian matriarch getting shamelessly drunk in front of friends and family but with the name Malik?!) that I watched with a perpetual cringe. An appropriate cultural advisor, like any other factual advisor, could simply have improved the quality of the art through ensuring accuracy. I was not _offended _though. *Why would I be when the writers were not maliciously intentioned?* It just made me sad that this obsession with diversity had overwhelmed common sense. I would have been perfectly happy with a white British main character.


I struggle with this mentality.  Where I live, there is no "minorities."   It is a melting pot.  I doubt I could write a story with all white characters because I can't even visualize that.   From what I understand, it's "art" and fiction, so there is no "accurracy" required.  And if we as authors are not permitted to write characters as anything other than the stereotypes, how boring would fiction become?

I haven't seen the movie yet, but isn't it set in Britian?  So, what's wrong with them acting British?   And why not use the name Malik?  I have a number of Indian friends with that name.  Why would you prefer a "white British character?"  What about Asian actors?  Don't they deserve to get the lead roles?  Himesh Patel is a brilliant actor.  And if they deliberately used a white character to avoid offending you, then wouldn't that be a form of pandering?


AJ677 said:


> A final point I'd like to make to illustrate the absurdity of this situation - I've nearly completed the first draft of my manuscript and I'm starting to worry that it might be criticised for lacking diversity. It so happens that all my characters are white because that's the way I visualised them. I don't what to change the characters in my mind's eye so what I've done to try to get round this is to change the hair colour and type of a character so that they are racially ambiguous (inspired by JK Rowling's 'back-racialisation').
> 
> It is absurd that I'm from an ethnic minority and should have to worry about such things.


You shouldn't!  Just like white people shouldn't shy away from writing characters with other skin types, for fear they will be criticized for "cultural errors."


----------



## AJ677 (Nov 3, 2022)

Taylor said:


> I don't mean to be rude, but isn't this a contradiction with your claim above? Are we to assume that all Asian and British families are the same, just based on "skin colour"? And if only people who grew up in a culture can know that culture, then how can you say it was written as a British Family? At any rate, the


In fiction you can write whatever you like and break any stereotype or expectation you like but the general rule is that if you do something out of the ordinary you have to explain or reference it in some way or the reader will find it jarring.

To take an extreme example, if you want you could write high fantasy and have a character whip out a laser gun halfway through. If you explained that occurrence it could be an intriguing twist. You can't just ignore it though.

Of course, there might be an Asian matriarch out there called Malik who is happy to get drunk in front of her friends and family but most South Asians watching it would find it so unusual they'd notice. It is not good writing to pull a reader or viewer out of the fictive experience without a good reason.


----------



## Taylor (Nov 3, 2022)

AJ677 said:


> In fiction you can write whatever you like and break any stereotype or expectation you like but the general rule is that if you do something out of the ordinary you have to explain or reference it in some way or the reader will find it jarring.


A family with the last name of Malik, living in Britain, is hardly out of the ordinary.  It sounds to me that you weren't able to watch it without prejudice.  Personally, I've been so grateful to see more ethnicities and skin color in lead actors, who aren't playing in a story about their heritage.  Call it "colour blind" or whatever you want, but we won't get to a non-prejudiced world if we feel we have to justify why a character has a certain skin colour.  



AJ677 said:


> To take an extreme example, if you want you could write high fantasy and have a character whip out a laser gun halfway through. If you explained that occurrence it could be an intriguing twist. You can't just ignore it though.


I don't see how this is at all similar to skin colour and ethnicity.  



AJ677 said:


> Of course, there might be an Asian matriarch out there called Malik who is happy to get drunk in front of her friends and family but most (South-East) Asians watching it would find it so unusual they'd notice. It is not good writing to pull a reader or viewer out of the fictive experience without a good reason.


Just because they notice, does not make it bad writing.  Perhaps they would find it refreshing not to see the stereotype.


----------



## AJ677 (Nov 3, 2022)

@Taylor:

Your post illustrates why a cultural advisor can have value, although not out of a pious wish to avoid offense, but simply to avoid blind spots.

I would be curious to know your background as you appear to have one of these blind spots. Are you white in a white majority country?

Britain is one of the most successfully racially integrated white majority countries in the world. That's what the data suggests despite the woke narrative. But there are still cultural differences based on ethnic background.  There are of course outliers and normal distributions of behaviour but the differences are significant enough to be obvious to the various ethnicities.

Of course, they are not necessarily obvious to our white compatriots and friends because that's the culture we assimilate into.

And this may be difficult for you to believe but I would be considered far more British and distant from my heritage than the vast majority of Asians in this country. This is partly because I don’t follow a faith and religion is such a potent force in South Asian identity. I also don't speak any other language other than English which is very unusual.

Edit:
You keep bringing up the Malik name. Clearly you unaware that it is a majority Muslim name. It is not an entirely Muslim name so it is a secondary factor. However, take that in conjunction with the notion of a South Asian matriarch (of any faith) getting drunk so shamelessly and publicly and it is very unusual. Of course such people no doubt exist, but they are unusual enough that they jarring if included in fiction withut exaplanation

2nd edit:
Re above, something you may not be aware of is how important names are in Asian culture because of the association with assumed religion. Without going into detail, my name has caused friction at various times in my life but only from other British Asians. My white British friends of course have no idea of the religious associations of my name.


----------



## Taylor (Nov 3, 2022)

AJ677 said:


> @Taylor:
> 
> Your post illustrates why a cultural advisor can have value, although not out of a pious wish to avoid offense, but simply to avoid blind spots.


You say you are "from an ethnic minority."   Are you writing your all-white cast of characters as white?  If so, are you planning to get a cultural advisor to ensure you have written white people with no errors?  It's a rhetorical question to illustrate my point.   Because you also appear to have a blind spot. 



AJ677 said:


> I would be curious to know your background as you appear to have one of these blind spots. Are you white in a white majority country?


As mentioned earlier, where I live, there are no "minorities." It is a melting pot.  Where I work, the workforce is predominantly Asian. I am of an ethnicity that typically gets stereotyped if portrayed in films and movies.   And it always bugs me. 



AJ677 said:


> Britain is one of the most successfully racially integrated white majority countries in the world. That's what the data suggests despite the woke narrative. But there are still cultural differences based on ethnic background.  There are of course outliers and normal distributions of behaviour but the differences are significant enough to be obvious to the various ethnicities.
> 
> Of course, they are not necessarily obvious to our white compatriots and friends because that's the culture we assimilate into.


Actually, they are obvious.  I probably could write a "typical" Asian family and capture the culture.  But that's not the point.  It's not if Asian people notice it or white people notice it.  It's that you are suggesting that to be a good writer you can't write anything other than ethnic stereotypes.  And I'm saying that's boring, and even insulting to people of that race.



AJ677 said:


> Edit:
> You keep bringing up the Malik name. Clearly you unaware that it is a majority Muslim name. It is not an entirely Muslim name so it is a secondary factor. However, take that in conjunction with the notion of an Asian matriarch drinking so shamelessly and publicly and it is very unusual.


I am aware of that.  However, one of my best friends whose name is Malik happens to be a Sikh.  What does religion have to do with this?  

You can't take this position, that because I'm not Asian, I would never understand.  I do understand; I just think you need to rethink your position.  The world is more interesting place if you can break down the paradigms.


----------



## Joker (Nov 3, 2022)

@Taylor You're a New York Italian, aren't you?


----------



## AJ677 (Nov 3, 2022)

Taylor said:


> Actually, they are obvious. I probably could write a "typical" Asian family and capture the culture.


Oh dear.

I think I'll leave it there. I wouldn't even be presumptious enough to even assume I could write about the intricacies of, say, white British working class family life without error, even though they are widely depicted in fiction. Yes, I could make a better stab at the white middle class given that most of my friends are from that background and they are the most common demographic represented in the majority of modern TV and literature so could use that as source material but could still make mistakes.

I suspect you are equally ignorant of the class differences in the UK but think you know it all from your reading and what you've seen on film.


----------



## Taylor (Nov 3, 2022)

Joker said:


> @Taylor You're a New York Italian, aren't you?


You're close!  But I live in Canada.


----------



## Joker (Nov 3, 2022)

Taylor said:


> You're close!  But I live in Canada.



Ah. Toronto?


----------



## Taylor (Nov 3, 2022)

AJ677 said:


> Oh dear.
> 
> I think I'll leave it there. I wouldn't even be presumptious enough to even assume I could write about the intricacies of, say, white British working class family life without error. I could make a better stab at the white middle class given that all my friends are from that background and they are represented in the vast majority of modern TV and literature so could use that as source material but could still make mistakes.


What are you writing about? 


AJ677 said:


> I suspect you are equally ignorant of the class differences in the UK but think you know it all from your reading and what you've seen on film.


Nice try!  My husband was born and raised in London England.  I worked there for a period of time and travel there on a regular basis.  You're assuming I and the producers of the movie, _Yesterday_ are ignorant of your culture, and if don't write things exactly as you see them, it's bad writing.  We're not ignorant at all, and that's my point.


----------



## Taylor (Nov 3, 2022)

Joker said:


> Ah. Toronto?


The other side.


----------



## Joker (Nov 3, 2022)

Taylor said:


> The other side.



Vancouver then.


----------



## AJ677 (Nov 3, 2022)

Taylor said:


> My husband was born and raised in London England


I think our discussion has run into a dead end.

You think you know it all because of tangential or secondary experience. Your husband may think he knows it all too but you should ask him if he knows the intricacies of all the social classes of the UK. Most Brits would say no, although it is more possible than him knowing the intricacies of British Asian culture.

The only way you would discover the limits of your knowledge would be to get closer experience of the cultures you're talking about which is unlikely to happen.


----------



## Taylor (Nov 3, 2022)

AJ677 said:


> I think our discussion has run into a dead end.


I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot and that we weren't able to come to an agreement on something.  



AJ677 said:


> You think you know it all because of tangential or secondary experience. Your husband may think he knows it all too but you should ask him if he knows the intricacies of all the social classes of the UK. Most Brits would say no, although it is more possible than him knowing the intricacies of British Asian culture.
> 
> The only way you would discover the limits of your knowledge would be to get closer experience of the cultures you're talking about which is unlikely to happen.


I wouldn't say it's unlikely.   I'd love to learn more about your culture for example.  

I lived in New Deli when I was working as a fashion designer.  That was incredibly interesting. I also lived in Paris for a year. I'm actually fascinated by different cultures. In my current WIP, every character comes from a different ethnicity, and most of them have mixed heritage.  I do bring in cultural nuances but try not to make the characters too stereotypical.  Perhaps I can bounce things off you? 

But I am interested in what you're working on if you care to share.


----------



## JBF (Nov 3, 2022)

Taylor said:


> I struggle with this mentality.  Where I live, there is no "minorities."   It is a melting pot.  I doubt I could write a story with all white characters because I can't even visualize that.   From what I understand, it's "art" and fiction, so there is no "accurracy" required.  And if we as authors are not permitted to write characters as anything other than the stereotypes, how boring would fiction become?



An observation, if I might, from what could loosely be termed the other side.

The county in which I reside has a rough population of 8000, with approximately 3000 living within the boundaries of the county seat.  By racial breakdown the populace runs approximately 88% white.  The next largest group is Hispanic at 10%.  There are six other enthnicities listed, of which Mixed-race is the only group to break _half_ a percent.  The county where I used to live is 85% white, 10% Hispanic, 1% black, and the remaining figure split up about evenly, with a slight running lead to Native.  This is less pronounced at the county seat (77% white,2% black,15% Hispanic) but still what some might term 'problematic'.

Discounting the odd long-range jaunt to other reaches of the state or the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex, the two primary locations I reference in my stuff are based off data sets borrowed from these places.  The largest city in this geographical area is 20,000 people.  Both are heavily rural, with economies dominated by agriculture with small islands of manufacturing or service jobs grouping near the population centers.

_Diversity _in this environment is going to mean something very, very different than it comes across in New York, Los Angeles, Vegas, Chicago, or any other super-metro area.  Doubly so as the setting is the mid/late 1980s at a time when representation was not so fashionable as now.

I can take this one of two ways, as I see it.

a) I can represent with passable accuracy a mostly-realistic picture of socio-racial makeup as I live it today, which is still considerably _more _diversified than it was three decades ago and get it _mostly _correct at local level, or:

b) I can install a modern picture of diversity in a place where it didn't exist then, doesn't really exist in appreciable volume now, and will almost certainly piss of the people most likely to read anything I get published

Contrary to popular belief (and due in no small part to Hollywood) it's highly unlikely somebody unfamiliar with this environment and its intricacies is going to see this and take it for anything other than racialist fantasy.  And while I make no claim that racists don't exist here, the broader social order is far less concerned with color than character and conduct.  When nominal outsiders encounter this, and when the New Mode of Thinking is not adopted wholeheartedly and without delay, the insinuations come out and the communications breakdowns begin.

Which is somewhat _problematic _(if I can borrow the word) on the occasion said outsider believes - and wants to argue - that all of 'us' living in the great Flyover Swamp Country are knuckle-dragging sister-raping meth-heads with an IQ puddling somewhere below room temperature and 'who' keep white robes and cans of gasoline in 'our' vehicles (read: coal-rolling bro-dozer with Confederate flag decal) in case the new neighbors are a shade darker than 'we' prefer.

Though the divide is less geographical and more urban/rural now, Flannery O'Connor had it correct:

_“*Anything that comes out of the South is going to be called grotesque by the northern reader, unless it is grotesque, in which case it is going to be called realistic.”*_

I may be damned for writing with insufficient sensitivity - or I may be damned for folding to the pressure of parties never satisfied who have not, can not, and _will _not allow legitimacy to experiences outside their own.

Given the choice, I know which way I'm going.


----------



## Joker (Nov 3, 2022)

JBF said:


> Which is somewhat _problematic _(if I can borrow the word) on the occasion I encounter someone who believes all of 'us' living in the great Flyover Swamp Country are knuckle-dragging sister-raping meth-heads with an IQ puddling somewhere below room temperature and 'who' keep white robes and cans of gasoline in 'our' vehicles (read: coal-rolling bro-dozer with Confederate flag decal) in case the new neighbors are a shade darker than 'we' prefer.



That's pretty much the response I get half the time when I talk about NASCAR without non car guys...


----------



## indianroads (Nov 3, 2022)

Joker said:


> @Taylor You're a New York Italian, aren't you?


She’s from the great white north… OH! Is that racist? (That’s a joke)


----------



## indianroads (Nov 3, 2022)

I’ll take some flak for this, but I believe the best way to write various ethnicities is to meet and befriend a lot of diverse people, and use them for inspiration. Get out in the world, experience people, places and things.


----------



## AJ677 (Nov 4, 2022)

indianroads said:


> I’ll take some flak for this, but I believe the best way to write various ethnicities is to meet and befriend a lot of diverse people, and use them for inspiration. Get out in the world, experience people, places and things.


Agree.

And, to correct any misconception I might have produced with my previous posts, I absolutely think that creators should be encouraged to write broadly and with freedom. They shouldn’t be beaten around the head by the mob if they get something slightly wrong but with good intentions.

However, just be aware that you risk pulling the reader out of the experience if you don’t get things right. It’s no different to writing historical fiction and then riling history buffs with anachronisms or describing locations incorrectly. It’s not evil. It’s not wrong. It just may may your art less impactful and effective than you’d want.

The (minor) mistake made by Curtis and Boyle was to write about Asian family life which is difficult to know intimately from the outside. I mentioned the drinking example because it is easy to explain on a forum but the bigger problem was the collection of subtle errors, such as how the characters interacted. Things that are difficult to explain but just don’t seem quite right.

To be clear, I enjoyed Yesterday. The film wasn’t spoiled by the minor inaccuracies. If I ever met Curtis and Boyle I would congratulate them for their film and also their good-hearted intentions but I would tell them that we are doing just fine. They shouldn’t hinder their art for our benefit.


----------



## Parabola (Nov 4, 2022)

indianroads said:


> I’ll take some flak for this, but I believe the best way to write various ethnicities is to meet and befriend a lot of diverse people, and use them for inspiration. Get out in the world, experience people, places and things.



I'd agree experience would round out one's "social perspective." Additionally, reading from diverse news sources etc (so that person isn't getting/reinforcing a black and white view/learns to pick up on one-sided fearmongering), or avoiding news narratives by and large and learning to draw non-groupthink conclusions. Or just having a baseline ethic to portray things reasonably accurately. Here's the thing I've noticed even with nonfiction writing: sometimes you will get attacked even if you're advocating for a balanced approach. Best way I know how to phrase it is, some will take to offense irrationally, while others seek to offend with a similar level of irrationality (the "edgelord"). Generating offense doesn't necessarily mean generating insight but that in itself doesn't mean lack of either.


----------



## indianroads (Nov 4, 2022)

There’s so much hyperbole in the news these days that it’s impossible to discern the truth.

All we can do is write with compassion and do our research. Beyond that we can only hope for the best.


----------



## Taylor (Nov 4, 2022)

JBF said:


> I can take this one of two ways, as I see it.
> 
> a) I can represent with passable accuracy a mostly-realistic picture of socio-racial makeup as I live it today, which is still considerably _more _diversified than it was three decades ago and get it _mostly _correct at local level, or:
> 
> ...



I'm going to assume "a."   And that would be my choice as well.  What would make it interesting to a reader like me, would be to learn about the true culture of your setting, but then also to read about the protagonist breaking the mould.  And you've done that beautifully with JHW.  I see him as still waters run deep ... this calm intellectual, who watches his world, doesn't challenge it, but sees something beyond his milieu.

In some ways, that satisfies "b" as well.  You don't have to create a false picture of diversity.  Only bring an unexpected mindset to a character.

Looking forward to more JHW.


----------



## Taylor (Nov 4, 2022)

Parabola said:


> ... or avoiding news narratives by and large and learning to draw non-groupthink conclusions.


100% this!!!



Parabola said:


> Here's the thing I've noticed even with nonfiction writing: sometimes you will get attacked even if you're advocating for a balanced approach.


As of late, it seems as if a balanced approach doesn't exist.  And if you try to take one, you're not heard anyway and lumped in with the perceived opposition, because you didn't regurgitate the acceptable narrative.  This very concept is what terrifies me about writing nonfiction.



Parabola said:


> Best way I know how to phrase it is, some will take to offense irrationally, while others seek to offend with a similar level of irrationality (the "edgelord"). Generating offense doesn't necessarily mean generating insight but that in itself doesn't mean lack of either.


Well said!  Those who take offense irrationally, are not aware of how crafty the edgelord is.  And that the edgelord is an extension of those seeking power.


----------



## Parabola (Nov 4, 2022)

Taylor said:


> 100% this!!!
> 
> As of late, it seems as if a balanced approach doesn't exist.  And if you try to take one, you're not heard anyway and lumped in with the perceived opposition, because you didn't regurgitate the acceptable narrative.  This very concept is what terrifies me about writing nonfiction.



I wonder if in some ways it's been a perennial problem for mainstream-ish writers in that they've been sort of policed by implicit or explicit cultural norms anyway. 

Recently I've wondered the difference between implicit cultural policing pre-social media/reddit and nowadays.  People would probably say it's worse now, and to some extent that's true, but I feel like that's one of those powder keg things since my view is that cultural brainwashing and gatekeepers have long been a thing, just the boxes they checked were different. At the very least, it seems like there's still wiggle room to be an edgelord, you just have to be relatively stealth about it. The dude who wrote Dexter utilized several tricks to make his character human and thus fairly acceptable (one being his soft spot for children). Fight Club appealed to traditional masculinity that runs across ideological lines despite values laden bluster to the contrary, and readers who didn't grow up with proper male role models. These are loose examples and products of a different era but hopefully it makes a point. 

And on that last bit, just wanted to emphasize that it's not uncommon for writers to seek out a kind of edgelord style, thinking that offense itself is just another word for insight. Offense in and of itself is "not necessarily" a symptom of desirable voice. Or, it can be, and you might find you offend a group of people you didn't intend to.

Also, if it helps, I do have examples of shows that released twenty years ago but get currently get ripped to shreds by easily offended people, even if they seem fairly neutral or whatever. Doesn't seem avoidable in the long term.


----------



## Matchu (Nov 4, 2022)

…you shall receive  punishment in this world or the next for ‘wiggle room to be an edge lord…’  & for referencing ‘Dexter/Fight Club’ both of which (things) would be terrible conversation-enders - given our meeting in a bistro-tavern.  I’d present my flat palm shrug, we’d have to find something else to talk about xx


----------



## Parabola (Nov 4, 2022)

Matchu said:


> …you shall receive  punishment in this world or the next for ‘wiggle room to be an edge lord…’  & for referencing ‘Dexter/Fight Club’ both of which (things) would be terrible conversation-enders - given our meeting in a bistro-tavern.  I’d present my flat palm shrug, we’d have to find something else to talk about xx



Well, we're bros at the end of the day. I'm sure we'd find something. And that was sort of my non-existent point from before. Cultural biases don't necessarily die so much as hide in other vessels. Everyone has a "bro" inside of them, even the snowflakes (even though they would never admit it), certain characters melt that exterior snow.


----------



## JBF (Nov 4, 2022)

Taylor said:


> I'm going to assume "a."   And that would be my choice as well.



I'm getting predictable.  If only I could have seen this coming.    




Taylor said:


> What would make it interesting to a reader like me, would be to learn about the true culture of your setting, but then also to read about the protagonist breaking the mould.



I've wondered about this, and one of the aspects I'm playing with is that it's entirely possible to be an outsider in one's environment without being wholly _apart_.  The potential trouble being that certain quarters will likely see it as insufficiently 'outside' - he's one of what could accurately be called the dominant culture, but he's nowhere near the top of the pyramid.  

Which is the trick about dealing with outsiders, I think.  You meet one....and you've met exactly one.  




Taylor said:


> And you've done that beautifully with JHW.  I see him as still waters run deep ... this calm intellectual, who watches his world, doesn't challenge it, but sees something beyond his milieu.
> 
> In some ways, that satisfies "b" as well.  You don't have to create a false picture of diversity.  Only bring an unexpected mindset to a character.
> 
> Looking forward to more JHW.



You ever seen a trash panda blush?  

You don't want to.  Trust me.  It's...unsettling.  _Highly _unsettling.  

But I very much appreciate the sentiment.


----------

