# Book Club



## geminye (Jun 20, 2008)

Hello,

I would like to start a book club.  Yes, I know that is essentially what the Books & Authors section is for, but my intent is to expand on my failed experiment in the Lounge.  

I would like people here to volunteer to all read the same book within a specified time frame, and then discuss it.  Seems simple, but what i'm looking for is an in depth discussion of technique, style, ect.   At the same time, giving us the ability to discuss what does and does not constitute "good" writing.  

I do not plan on being the "leader" here.  I am by no means qualified.  My intent is to just get things started.  This will allow us to discuss specific passages without the need to post them, and thus circumventing any ambiguities of the Fair Use doctrine.  

If interested, please let me know.  Once there are enough volunteers (at least three, plus me) we can then try to vote on a book to start with, preferably something easy to find for a very small cost on half.com or at a thrift store.


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## Dancer Preston (Jun 20, 2008)

Ooo! Count me in. I miss literature class...


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## moderan (Jun 20, 2008)

Sure, I'll bite. Lit class was eons ago.


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## lilacstarflower (Jun 21, 2008)

I'd be interested. This is the only place where I get to talk about books without boring people lol


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## Cyric (Jun 21, 2008)

I'm in.


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## Damian_Rucci (Jun 21, 2008)

Count me in!


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## Dancer Preston (Jun 22, 2008)

But where to start?


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## Cyric (Jun 22, 2008)

Dancer Preston said:


> But where to start?




Let's all read "The Holy Bible" and come back here and write a book summary.


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## Mike C (Jun 22, 2008)

Cyric said:


> Let's all read "The Holy Bible" and come back here and write a book summary.



The Devil did it.


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## blackthorn (Jun 22, 2008)

^ROFL!

What type of books would we be reading? Availability of books? Easy-to-find?

More info, please!


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## bryndavis (Jun 22, 2008)

I'm definitely up for this!  Stuff like this always gets me to read things I otherwise wouldn't have...

Should be fun!


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## geminye (Jun 23, 2008)

Well, we have 8 people interested so far, so I will proceed.  

As far as what books, I think perhaps we should do it democratically.  *Hisses and boos from the crowd* Yes, i know that will result in 8 votes for 8 different books, but we need a system.  

I do think we should not pick anything recently released.  They have to be readily available through the library if possible.  

Probably the most democratic way is to get a list from everyone, then choose from the list at random.  

Any thoughts?


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## moderan (Jun 23, 2008)

Anything but a bodice-ripper


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## mi is happy (Jun 23, 2008)

I'll join if we don't read 50 cent romance novels.


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## Charlie_Eleanor (Jun 23, 2008)

mi is happy said:


> I'll join if we don't read 50 cent romance novels.


 
I'll join if we DO!  Cheap yo!

But really, I belong to a book club already so I probably wouldn't have the time.  Plus, it just won't be as fun.  At the last meeting one of the members drank four bottles of wine :drunk: and played dance dance revolution while stripping.  Unfortunantly I left early, but next time I'm staying the whole time!!


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## lilacstarflower (Jun 24, 2008)

moderan said:


> Anything but a bodice-ripper



urgh - now I don't know what to suggestX\'D


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## moderan (Jun 24, 2008)

Expand your horizons *ducks*
Mayhap we should start with a classic of some kind...given that we seem to have people from a number of different genres readership-wise. The only difficulty with that is that most of the classics have been done to death, analyzed ad infinitum-but surely such a discerning crowd can come up with new thoughts.


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## lilacstarflower (Jun 24, 2008)

A classic is good for me - I read mainly period-based novels so it would break me in gently...so to speak...


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## karax268 (Jun 25, 2008)

Count me in too 
A clasic is fine with me. I meant to read one soon so this couldn't be better


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## moderan (Jun 25, 2008)

Should be short, too...just so everyone can get through it in a reasonable length of time. Henry James? Robert Louis Stevenson? Voltaire? Each one of those authors has penned certifiably "classic" shorter novels. I'd nominate Candide as a good choice, though the other two are worthy also. (for the record-the Turn of the Screw and the Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde).


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## Dancer Preston (Jun 26, 2008)

Candide is a good choice. But perhaps a little narrow since Voltaire was satirizing his time period and it doesn't offer much in-depth discussion. Furthermore, we have to be careful when picking works that have been translated, given that there are plenty to translations of this (I have several), which can change the overall effect and affect of the novel. Unless, of course, we want to read it in French, but I'm like any other American, I only know American.

Some short classic novels I nominate:

Ethan Fromme by Edith Wharton
Island of Dr. Moreau by H.G. Wells
Animal Farm by George Orwell
Old Man and the Sea by Ernest Hemingway
Passing by Nella Larsen (this one's been sitting on my shelf unread for a while; it might be a little hard to get)
Flatland by Edwin Abbott

I'm also not opposed to reading longer novels nor more recent novels. I'm just so excited!


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## lilacstarflower (Jun 26, 2008)

I agree - I think our first discussion should be based on a shorter novel, just until we get into the swing of things


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## moderan (Jun 26, 2008)

Hmm. Never heard of Nella Larsen...the others are good suggestions. *chuckles* especially as I already have them
We only have a few folks weighing in though.


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## Dancer Preston (Jun 26, 2008)

moderan said:


> Hmm. Never heard of Nella Larsen.


 
She wrote two novels and life became tough and she became a maid I believe.


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## geminye (Jun 26, 2008)

I'm all for a short classic. Besides, it might be easy to find it on Project Gutenberg.  Its as good a place to start as anywhere.  So, maybe we should each choose a list of 3 books?  Try to pick short enough lengths that we can begin discussing within a couple of weeks.  We'll set a deadline once the book has been chosen.  
Once the book is chosen, even those who haven't been in from the beginning may join in, but should only discuss the book at hand.  
Once all the lists are in (deadline for that too) i can randomly choose from the list, making it as democratic as possible.  

Does this sound reasonable?

Edit: Also, try to pick something you haven't read before and always wanted to, but never found the time.


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## moderan (Jun 27, 2008)

Works for me.


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## Mira (Jul 3, 2008)

Can I join?? I'm up for a short classic! I haven't heard of Nella Larson either. We should try one of hers then! Since there are two of us who have not heard of her. If she's any good of course.


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## Mira (Jul 3, 2008)

Sorry Geminye, didn't really read your post. But that sounds like a plan!


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## Sen Yama (Jul 3, 2008)

I suggest a Tolstoy/Tolstoi (however we spell it nowadays). He did short stories(well, some novels too [like War and Peace, but I'm not nomination that])

I suggest:
The Raid (a personal favorite) - 28 pages
The Death of Ivan Ilyich (never gotten around to reading) - 59 pages 
Father Sergius (friends say it's good) - 47 pages

Or some George Orwell, perhaps 1984.

I think that the advantage with using a Tolstoy for the first one would be that since it's short, we could meet back up in a week or two and talk, perhaps work out some kinks, before we start on something too long and forget about the whole thing.

If we're really discusing the elements, we should probably break an actual book into chapters, otherwise we'll be lost in a sea of text, without a coherent base.

But, of course, these are only my thoughts on the subjuect, but we should probably have this decided by Friday or we'll never get it off the ground.


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## geminye (Jul 3, 2008)

Mira, welcome aboard.

Sen Yama, you're absolutely right.  By breaking them down to a lump of chapters at a time, we'll have a chance to really dig into the details.  

Okay.  We have a few suggestions so far.  I'm going to suggest a deadline for suggestions on July 9th?  Anyone who would like to participate, please submit a list of 3 books, as Sen Yama has done.  On the 10th, i'll pick a book at random.  Then, we'll allow a week for everyone to find a copy.  Once we are all on the same page and have picked a book, we can break down the reading schedule.  

This is basically going to be a very slow thread, probably taking 2 to 3 weeks per book, at least at first.  Once we have a loyal group involved, it should go more quickly and allow us to explore more books.  I am dedicated to making this work, so even if it is just myself and one other person, the thread will continue.  

Please send all comments and suggestions as soon as possible so we can begin.


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## Mira (Jul 3, 2008)

Animal Farm-George Orwell
Slaughterhouse five-Kurt Vonnegut
This Side of Paradise-F.Scott Fitzgerald


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## moderan (Jul 3, 2008)

Ok...here's my nominations:

The Stranger-Albert Camus
The Secret Sharer-Joseph Conrad
We-Yevgeny Zamyatin


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## Sen Yama (Jul 9, 2008)

Sorry guys, I probably won't be able to participate until Late August. I'll see you then.


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## geminye (Jul 10, 2008)

Ok.  Today is the tenth.  Perhaps that wasn't enough time for everyone.  We should start slowly to allow everyone to be involved.  I will be on vacation until the end of next week.  How about we make 7/20 the official deadline?  Please vote if you would like to participate.  Even if you have to duplicate the vote.  If a book is voted for twice, i will put it in twice.  This will help to ensure that if a book is popular, it will stand a better chance of being read.  And i know i haven't chosen yet either.  I will probably only put one book on the list to keep everything as unbiased as possible.  

For those who have not been checking the thread, or have just not been posting until a book is chosen, i strongly urge you to chime in so we can keep everything on track.  I want this to be a positive experience for everyone.


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## geminye (Jul 10, 2008)

Sen, no problem.  Things come up.  I'm sure they will for all of us, but you can still participate partially if you'd like.  We will probably break each book into a group of chapters.  If not, hopefully we will still be here to add you into the group.  See you then!


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## Dancer Preston (Jul 14, 2008)

My nominations are:

The Island of Dr. Moreau by H.G. Wells
Old Man and the Sea by Ernest Hemingway
Ethan Fromme by Edith Wharton


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## geminye (Jul 21, 2008)

Ok.  Sorry.  I thought I had the deadline for today.  Anyway.  My 3 are 

-One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest
-The Moon and Sixpence
-Robinson Crusoe

I apologize if these are bad picks, but i just chose from the shortest ones on my shelf.  I'll be picking the book randomly from the compiled list.  I have also included the books Sen suggested even though she will not be able to participate to add more the the pool.


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## geminye (Jul 21, 2008)

Alright.  The method i'll use to pick the books is as follows:  I use two 10 sided dice.  I roll the two dice, then add the two numbers.  Of course, if the numbers are higher than the number of books (15) i re-roll.  Also, I numbered the books as the first book from each person in the order they were suggested as 1-5, and so on to break up the groups.  

After all that, the book i came up with was Moderan's suggestion of _The Stranger._ If anyone has any objections, please submit them for review.  Otherwise, try to come up with a copy of this story.  I believe (and correct me if i'm wrong) this story is also called _The Visitor_ in some collections.  I will check on the Guttenburg Project to see if a free copy is there.  I will set a deadline for getting a copy of the book before we start.  Of course, anyone can jump in and participate, but the idea is for us to be on the same page.  Sorry, bad pun.  Anyway, begin looking for the story, and I will post again with the deadline.


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## moderan (Jul 21, 2008)

Gutenberg doesn't have it. Amazon has lots. Gonna hie me to the Book Rack. If they have it, I'll get a few.


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## quarterscot (Jul 23, 2008)

Wasn't sure about this idea from the start, but if you're doing The Stranger I'm definitely in. It's perfect for a book club, being short, brilliant and liable to create 14,000 different theories. And it gives me an excuse to buy The Stranger, something I should have done a long time ago. Let us know when you want us to start reading


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## geminye (Jul 26, 2008)

Today is the 26th.  I have googled _The Stranger,_ and found a couple of places where you can get an Ebook version.  If you prefer, you can buy an actual copy.  I have found some for as low as $1.00, plus $3.49 s&h.  Or, just check out your local library.  So everyone has enough time to acquire a copy, lets begin reading about 2 weeks from now.  I know that seems like a long time, but once everyone has a copy, we should be able to move a little more quickly.  If you already have a copy, by all means, start reading!  Make notes, write down questions and observations.  If you are already ahead, you will be able to provide good material to get a discussion started.  

As I said in the beginning, I am not a literature teacher.  I am/was a literature major, and have had several literature classes, but still have 70 credit hours to graduate.  So, this will be a group led discussion.  Again, our emphasis here is not necessarily literary criticism, but that will inevitably be the backbone.  What we are trying to accomplish is digging to the root of what makes good writing, and writing techniques.  I may go to some sights and try to find some questions to guide us, but i will not pull material to be used as a "course guide."  

So, try to get a copy as soon as you can.  The deadline is August 9th.  On the 9th, we can break down the reading schedule by chapter groups.  I think the reading portion will include several chapters in a fairly short amount of time, so that we may use more time to discuss and give everyone participating enough opportunity to become involved.  

As of now, there have been 15 people who have voted.  This means we should have 15 people participating.  Please, if you want to participate, but do not like the book that was chosen, try to be involved regardless.  I want this to be a chance for us to explore books we may not have read on our own, as well as a lesson on writing.  Its not about whether or not you like the book.  And besides, if you don't like it, vote next time!!

As always, if there are any questions or concerns, please let everyone know, but let's not bog down the thread with endless arguments.  If there is something you would like to discuss, by all means, you are welcome to PM myself, or anyone else who has posted so far.  This is a group thread.  

Happy book searching!  Remember, August 9th!


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## geminye (Jul 26, 2008)

Also, on a side note, my wife has a degree in French Literature, so if we begin to have questions about translation she can help.


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## Gabriel Gray (Jul 31, 2008)

Can i join? i know i missed the vote, or whatever it was. But i'd sure like to read a book i haven't before and discuss it with you crazy cats.


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## geminye (Jul 31, 2008)

Absolutely.  All are welcome.


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## weak sauce (Jul 31, 2008)

I'm in as long as its a book I will enjoy.

I'm not that picky either.


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## geminye (Aug 1, 2008)

All i ask, sauce, is that you give whatever book is chosen a fair chance before you decide not to participate.  Hopefully, the idea will be to explore books you wouldn't have chosen yourself.  I discovered Murakami's "Hard-boiled Wonderland" this way, and am very grateful.


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## weak sauce (Aug 4, 2008)

soooooooooo.....

do we have a book yet?


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## geminye (Aug 4, 2008)

The Stranger- Albert Camus


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## geminye (Aug 6, 2008)

Ok, so i got my copy from half.com for about $6 total.  Let me know if you haven't found a copy, or are still waiting to find one.  Remember, the deadline is the 9th unless you guys tell me you don't have a copy yet.  Once you have a copy, or have found the free versions online, let me know who is going to participate so i can know when everyone has responded and we can continue with the ongoing chapters.


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## Dancer Preston (Aug 6, 2008)

I have a copy and have already finished half of it. Ready for discussion whenever...


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## RomanticRose (Aug 6, 2008)

Never mind.  Thought I'd found an online source, but I was mistaken.


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## moderan (Aug 6, 2008)

Here's one:the stranger
here's another:the stranger


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## RomanticRose (Aug 6, 2008)

On the Questia.com you can only read the first 17 pages without subscribing.


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## moderan (Aug 6, 2008)

*shrugs* Didn't get that far. Just googled. Bought my copy.


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## geminye (Aug 10, 2008)

Okay everybody.  Let's get this started.  This is a pretty short book, so I figure we can just divide it in half.  Shall we say....two weeks to make it through part one?  It is shorter than the second half.  Try to make it through the first part in two weeks, then we can take two to four to discuss?  Again, if anyone has opinions or comments, please let me know.


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## geminye (Aug 22, 2008)

How is everyone coming along?  Are we still good for the 24th to begin discussion?


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## moderan (Aug 23, 2008)

Ok by me. I'll be happy to read it again before then.


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## geminye (Aug 24, 2008)

Okay everybody.  Let's begin the discussion tomorrow night.  Sunday was the last day to catch up on the reading.  

Again, the focus here is not necessarily critical theory of literature, but more of a focus on writing techniques and story composition.  But, by all means, for those of you who have insight on the more technical aspects, please give us your knowledge.  As I've said before, I've only had about 2 years of literature classes, so i am not claiming to be a guru.  I am merely trying to find methods of deciphering good writing.  

In that vein, lets keep in mind that not everyone participating is necessarily up to par about the schools of literature and so on.  If possible, lets keep it in a layman type of setting without dumbing down the material.  When a school of thought presents itself and is critical to the story (which it usually is) lets look at it.  

So, try to come up with some thoughts about the first part of the story, and start throwing out the ideas.  I will not be able to weigh in until about 7 or 8 eastern time, but i'll be checking in throughout the day.  If Moderan, or anyone else can get us started at anytime, please do.  I think 2 week intervals of reading and discussion should be adequate for now.  At least until we get into the swing and habit of doing it.  

As always, please voice any comments, suggestions, or concerns.  

Reminder:  If you feel it is necessary to quote a passage, please include a small citation with your quote.  Since we are all reading the same material, but not the same editions, include material which surrounds the quote, not just the page number.  What we are doing should fall well within the Fair Use doctrine, but one can never be too cautious when it comes to litigious corporations trying to pad their profit margins.


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## geminye (Aug 25, 2008)

Ok.  Probably the first thing to talk about would be:  What works, and what doesn't?  

Were there things in this story which stood out for you?  For one, I'm still trying to decipher his complete apathy, and his motivation for killing the Arab.  Any thoughts?


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## moderan (Aug 25, 2008)

Meursault and Raymond had made an agreement during the earlier altercation, in which Meursault said he would use the gun if the Arab drew his knife. The description of the killing has Meursault overwhelmed by the elements (The sun, the heat, etc., salt from his sweat in his eyes.). My take on it has always been that he planned to (or feared he would have to) use the gun from the moment he took it from Raymond.
The MC's distance and diffidence seems to be ascribed to the loss of his mother, though I'm not entirely certain that is the case. That distance is what has always stood out for me-the MC seemed not quite entirely human, not really present in his own life. The interesting thing about it is that recent forensic findings seem to support real serial killers having the same disconnected relation to the world-though in some of those cases it is seen as narcissism so extreme that it's almost solipsism.
Meursault does seem to ape that-he is almost completely inner-directed, though his occasional musings and forays into sensualism have very little depth. He doesn't seem to _feel_.


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## Kinbote (Aug 25, 2008)

I read The Stranger last year, so I'll chip in.

I loved the idea behind the novel, but the prose was simply serviceable. I think this is typical of Camus actually, I find him more of a philosopher than a writer.

In regards to the murder, as I remember it, Meursault was completely without intent (though he did take the gun and return to the scene). Was it not a reflex to being blinded by the sun? 

It got me thinking about the lies people tell themselves, and those that society perpetuate. The final scene is indicative of this; Meursault is incensed by the priest who asks him to confess before his execution, but to Meursault (and Camus) belief in God is an absurdism that doesn't fit with the observed reality. Meursault finds comfort in embracing his insignificance. 

Sorry if it's a bit obtuse, Camus discusses this in 'The Myth of Sisyphus'. His Paradox of the Absurd is a little negative for me to be honest.

K.


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## geminye (Aug 26, 2008)

Kinbote, welcome.  Yes, he did shoot him after being blinded by the sun.  So far, the story does seem to be primarily a vehicle for the extrapolation of Camus' thoughts on philosophy.  Does that negate the story?  Or, does it give it more meaning?  I do agree the actual writing technique is just a means to an end.  Perhaps this is a result of the translation, but I doubt it.  

Without having finished the book yet (thanks for the spoiler Kinbote!! lol) the narrative feels fragmented.  There were images which interested me, but on the whole, its leaving me very apathetic.  I will skim back through to find the imagery which appeals to me, but i don't think there will be much in the way of poetic language that stirs my creative soul.  

There certainly is a surreal quality to the story.  Not so much as if you were to turn a Dali painting into a short story, but it certainly has a touch of absurdity to it that lends a dreamlike quality to it.  It reminds me vaguely of a Kafka tale.


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## moderan (Aug 26, 2008)

Hmm. I'm trying to consider the book without referring to any of Camus' other work, which hasn't been designated as an assignment here. The prose is workmanlike on purpose, I think, to establish the narrator's voice. I don't doubt that you'll find a scarcity of high-flown imagery in the novel as that doesn't seem to be Camus' purpose. I read it in the original French some years ago and there wasn't a lot of poesy in it even in that most poetic of languages.
The similarities to K_ or Joseph K_ could be simply a result of translation, or they could be intentional. I should think it's the former, but I have no data to base that supposition on. I have only a passing acquaintance with Kafka's mother tongue.
The interesting part of part one to me was that Meursault originally didn't like Raymond very much, but then he took up with him completely and seemed to entirely quell any misgivings he had originallly. A character with no convictions, willing to be pushed one way or the other as the wind blows. Having free will, but entirely refusing to use it. I found that a very weird auteurial tactic originally and still do. There it does seem as if Camus is manipulating the story purely to espouse his personal philosophies, in a more egregious fashion than most writers, who will impart bits of their own beliefs in the text through the act of writing anyway.


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## Kinbote (Aug 26, 2008)

Sorry geminye, didn't realise you hadn't finished it!

Interesting that you both make a connection with Kafka, I read The Stranger back to back with The Trial last year. I don't think there are too many similarities beyond their literal events - in both cases the individual is persecuted by society. I think that Camus and Kafka had completely different intentions however.

I much preferred The Trial of the two by the way, despite it being unfinished.


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## geminye (Aug 26, 2008)

No worries Kinbote.  Just giving you a hard time!  

I also prefer _The Trial_.  Yet, there is certainly something about the language he uses which easily enables me to visualize what is occurring.


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## Kinbote (Aug 26, 2008)

If I recall rightly, he writes very matter of factly. Is that the reason for this lucidity, or is there something else to it? 

The whole character of Meursault for me was so passive, I don't think he had an opinion on anything. He wasn't so much a fleshed-out character, as much as the reader's window to the world. This was intentional on Camus' part, but it made it hard to relate.

As an aside, was there a subplot involving Meursault's neighbour and his dog? That comes to mind for some reason.


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## moderan (Aug 26, 2008)

Yes, Mssr. Salamano and his mangy dog...which served as an introduction to Raymond, Meursault's other neighbor.
Camus introduced those characters the day after the funeral. He says that the man and the dog look somewhat similar and that the man mistreats the dog, who is mangy.
This is before Raymond, after a dinner of blood sausage and wine, gets Meursault to act as an accomplice by writing the letter. At the end of that scene, as he is returning to his rooms, Meursault hears the dog whimpering.
The dog runs away during the next chapter, in which the conspiracy between Raymond and Meursault deepens (a police encounter after Raymond beats his girl, going out to play pool). It almost seems as if the dog is symbolic of Meursault's reason, which is on the verge of deserting him as he gets further involved with Raymond. The last vestige of Meursault's usage of his own free will is foregoing a visit to a whorehouse.


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## geminye (Aug 28, 2008)

So, we've established that the actual prose itself is lacking, whether due to the translation or not, but there may be underlying symbolism which makes the story itself more attractive to the reader.  

Can we say then, that one can make up for deficiencies in writing ability with a well structured plot/theme?  I would certainly think it would help.  Thoughts?

Moderan, love the idea of the dog symbolizing his free will.


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## moderan (Aug 28, 2008)

I wouldn't say that the prose is lacking, more that it is _journalistic _rather than _novelistic_. However I do believe that subtext can make a story more attractive. The second point, well, there are enough examples of that around to buy into it, if by writing ability you mean facility with verbiage and sentence construction. You can also get past that deficiency with a well-defined or memorable character. Not that Meursault is a particularly memorable character in this case.


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## geminye (Aug 28, 2008)

Right, point taken.  So, perhaps Camus takes the apathetic nature of his character and extends it into the style as well?  

I do agree a memorable character makes for a more intriguing story.  Especially, memorable villains.


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## moderan (Aug 28, 2008)

I think the style is deliberately colorless.


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## geminye (Aug 29, 2008)

So, at this point, is there any one, or a few things we can point to which makes this story "good," or a "classic" in the sense that it remains within popular fiction?  As far as the plot is concerned, the events are more or less ordinary.  A man's mother dies, he copes, meets a woman, makes an unsavory friend, then shoots someone.  Perhaps its the surreal nature of his decision to kill a man which pulls the story out of danger of being mundane.


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## moderan (Aug 29, 2008)

I'd agree with the last point. The Stranger, to my mind, is more or less a distillation of _noir_ principles. The matter-of-fact prose and heavy-on-the-senses detail, as well as the expression of a rather bleak existentialist philosophy, sit the work next to Hammett and Jim Thompson. As a vehicle for a conscious philosophy, it's probably superior. I don't think the _noir_ writers set out to espouse their personal philosophies, most of them were just trying to make a buck. I would think a valid comparison could be made to Thompson's the Killer Inside Me, which isn't on our current reading list.
The Stranger is a good story but I don't think a great one. My take is that Camus' reputation and body of work buoyed it beyond similar (and arguably superior) pieces into the realm of "serious literature".


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## geminye (Aug 29, 2008)

Ok. Great!  We're off to a good start, despite it only being the three of us so far!  Lol.  Anyway, let's set a deadline of 9/5 for discussion on the first part of teh book.  Of course, we can still discuss it, but after the fifth, the emphasis will be on finishing the book (for those of us who haven't) and getting ready to focus on the second part.


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## moderan (Aug 30, 2008)

Sure. Shame that there's only a couple of us discussing though.


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## AlittlePlum (Aug 31, 2008)

I'm up for joining!! I _really_ need a good book to read and dissect!!


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## Kinbote (Aug 31, 2008)

Sorry for my prolonged absence! 

To talk just of the first half then (I've learnt my lesson from before geminye ), one of the things that struck me was Meursault's relationship with his friend Raymond. Despite witnessing Raymond's treatment of his girlfriend, Meursault does not find him morally objectional because towards him his friend is agreeable.

What do you think of this scene?

K.


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## wacker (Sep 4, 2008)

I would be interested, count me in.


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## geminye (Sep 10, 2008)

Ok.  Let'ts finish this one out.  Its a short second half, so lets make the deadline and discussion date for 9/13.  I know that's not a lot of time, but since the second part is short, we can use more time to discuss the book as a whole as well.  Let me know if there are any scheduling conflicts.

Once we've finished with this book, we can begin talking about the next vote, and see who is still with us...if any.


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## geminye (Sep 18, 2008)

Sorry, I'm running late.  Lets make the end date 9/20. Those of you who have already finished the book can begin discussing if need be.


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## geminye (Sep 21, 2008)

Okay, now that we have finished the book, let's go ahead and skip the discussion of just the second half, and consider the work as a whole, shall we?  (alright Kinbote, now you can go!  lol)

Probably, the most rudimentary measure of a complete story would be whether or not the protagonist has experienced a profound change of some kind.  In Meursault's case, would this be considered true?  Has his character been fundamentally changed by the events in the story?  And, if so, has the change been positive, or negative (as far as a conventional measure is concerned)?


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