# Antihero Motives?



## Marthix2011 (Aug 13, 2014)

As of late, I've been really into antiheroes.  I've been reading up on them and trying to discover ones I can study in order to fully develop the antihero of my story.  A question about motives.  For an antihero, can you guys give me some examples of antiheroes you've came across (books, television shows, films, video games, etc.).  What were their motives?  In other words, why did they kill others in order to get what they want?  Was it to protect or support their family?  Was it a personal matter?  If you guys could list some examples of antihero motives along with examples of antiheroes that stand out, that would be appreciated.  I know about Tony Soprano and Walter White.  But who else?  Thanks!


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## Bishop (Aug 13, 2014)

The greatest antihero of all time:







I can literally talk about Snake Plissken until death takes me, but I'll just answer your questions about him 

Snake motives: Snake was destined for New York City Maximum Security Penitentiary for armed robbery of a federal reserve bank, and while he was being processed, Air Force One crash landed and the president became stuck inside of the prison-city. The police commissioner for the US Police Force (the US becomes a police state in this future) gives Snake the option of infiltrating the prison to rescue the president in exchange for a full pardon for his criminal actions. Snake accepts, but the commissioner--knowing Snake would abandon the mission to make for Canada if given the glider needed to infiltrate silently--put two microscopic explosive charges in Snake's neck. If he doesn't get the president out in 24 hours, the time remaining on a crucial peace summit between the USSR and China, the charges decay and explode. No more Hartford Summit? No more Snake Plissken. His only motivation is to survive. Snake has similar motives in the sequel/remake Escape From L.A. 

I love Snake because he's the purest form of antihero: he is only doing what he's doing to survive, and his actions in both of his films show this. He's an enemy of the state, only working for the state because if he doesn't, he dies. What little freedom exists in the US isn't even enough to entice him; the presidential pardon in the second film? He turns it down with a hearty "F*** you, I'm going to Hollywood!" and only accepts the mission in that one because they inject him with a super-virus. Everything about Snake is driven by the one most basic, personal, self-centered need: Survival. But through that, he ends up doing things that are good things. He has a moral fiber and a conscience, far more than the government that hires him that's supposedly the 'moral' side; rooted mostly in his loyalty to those who help him though his struggles.

...man, I really could talk about this forever.

EDIT: This thread went three hours without a first post, which is like, a record. I choose to believe everyone on the forum was like, "Ah, just give it a minute. Bishop will start us off with Kurt Russell."


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## Bishop (Aug 13, 2014)

Ooooh and this guy!!!






Jack Burton, of "Big Trouble in Little China" has a primary motivation: getting his truck back. Some gangsters steal it, and his friend's fiancee from the airport and he soon finds himself in a world of underground Chinese gangs, slave trading, real sorcery, true evil, and various Chinese hells (there's a lot of them). Eventually, Jack decides he's in too deep and he'll just get another truck--but he knows his friend won't be able to get a new fiancee. So, he goes deeper into the rabbit hole to fight by his side.

Not as much the quintessential antihero like Snake, he's actually much closer to a traditional hero by the end, doing the good-vs-evil thing. It should also be noted, that in his film, he's actually the side-kick. Carpenter intended for the side-kick and hero roles to be perceptually reversed--the real hero of the film is Wang. 

Anyway, I'll stop now, so someone else who's not as much of a fanboy can have a turn 

EDIT: Also, here's a *list on wikipedia* of a handful of varying examples.


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## BeastlyBeast (Aug 13, 2014)

I guess you could say Dexter was an anti-hero? A serial killer who only worked for the government to further his desire to kill while getting into as little law trouble as possible? Very anti-hero-ey... Another example might be The hound from GOT... he is helping Arya Stark stay alive, but only to save his own head... a common theme with anti-heroes is they are not afraid to do good things to further bad causes and vice versa. Like Bishop said, they are really only doing what they do for survival. Anti-heroes are very grey characters, which are honestly the most realistic, so if you choose to write about someone, don't write about white knight vs dark evil blashemous golem of death... write grey vs grey.


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## Pidgeon84 (Aug 13, 2014)

Bishop said:


> EDIT: Also, here's a *list on wikipedia* of a handful of varying examples.



Lol! Satan! The original antihero! 

The Watchmen is full antiheros. Check that out. Batman is kind of an antihero if you look at him from a certain perspective. The public views him as bad guy. He's going against the law to be a vigilante. Just an interesting thought. Similarly, Catwoman, just a straight up antihero. That's all I got right now.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Aug 13, 2014)

A lot of Clint Eastwood roles come to mind. Dirty Harry notably but my personal favorite is the Man with no name in the Spaghetti Westerns


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## Bishop (Aug 13, 2014)

Methinks Pidge likes comic books...

Then again, I posted two small essays on John Carpenter/Kurt Russell characters... so I have no legs to stand on here.


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## Pidgeon84 (Aug 13, 2014)

Bishop said:


> Methinks Pidge likes comic books...
> 
> Then again, I posted two small essays on John Carpenter/Kurt Russell characters... so I have no legs to stand on here.



Haha not as much as you might think. I would love to get more into them but it's like, $6.00 for one comic (at least at the local comic store it is). I did read Watchmen though, which is amazing. As far Batman, I'm just semi knowledgeable on that history. But since you brought it up, I think comic books would probably be the best place to find compelling antiheros.


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## aj47 (Aug 13, 2014)

What about anti-heroes that are redeemed in future parts of the series?  Do they count for what you're looking for?


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## Terry D (Aug 13, 2014)

How about anti-heroes from books?  Michael Moorcock's Elric of Melnibone from the _Stormbringer_ series, Conan the Barbarian, Jay Gatsby, Alex from _A Clockwork Orange_, Severus Snape, Sam Spade, Scarlett O'Hara, and Roland Deschain from _The Dark Tower_ series are all anti-heroes.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Aug 13, 2014)

astroannie said:


> What about anti-heroes that are redeemed in future parts of the series?  Do they count for what you're looking for?



I've got a good one if you like old movies. In Stalag 13 William Holden plays a heel named J.J Sefton. In the end he ferrets out the German spy infiltrator in their POW camp. Very interesting character


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## Morkonan (Aug 13, 2014)

Marthix2011 said:


> ...  What were their motives?...



Corrupt, selfish, morally repugnant, painful, unethical, blasphemous...

In short - The Platonic Antihero has no desirable qualities that we would expect to find in a "hero." There are few truly complete "anti-heroes", since the nature of writing often dictates that the writer attempt to connect characters with the Reader in some way. "Sympathy" is often the choice.

An excellent example in television would be "Gaius_Baltar." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Baltar

There are never any redeeming qualities about the "person" Gaius Balter. Everything we experience of him, even the moments that could possibly show quality of character, ends up being false in some way. Yet, without Balter, the goals of our Heroes would not be reached. Balter is not evil, he is simply what he is - Gaius Balter. Nothing is certain with him and that is a "flaw" that is laid conveniently at our own feet. Gaius Balter is, in many ways, like  "The Scorpion." The only thing we can depend on from Baltar is that he will only ever act to preserve his own life. That's the only real difference. 

The Scorpion and the Frog

  A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the 
scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The 
frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion 
says, "Because if I do, I will die too."

  The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream,
the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of 
paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,
but has just enough time to gasp "Why?" 

		Replies the scorpion: "Its my nature..." 

(Aesop's Fables)


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## Apple Ice (Aug 13, 2014)

I tend to find anti-heroes are the most realistic because everyone in real life is one, I think. Everyone has their faults as well as good characteristics which is why I think they're so popular, because people relate better. If you write someone you know really well in to your story as absolutely honest as you can then they will become an anti-hero naturally. When I write all of my chracters tend to be an anti-hero of sorts, including the hero and villain


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## Morkonan (Aug 13, 2014)

Apple Ice said:


> I tend to find anti-heroes are the most realistic because everyone in real life is one, I think. Everyone has their faults as well as good characteristics which is why I think they're so popular, because people relate better. If you write someone you know really well in to your story as absolutely honest as you can then they will become an anti-hero naturally. When I write all of my chracters tend to be an anti-hero of sorts, including the hero and villain



It would be a terrible world if there were no heroes. Having "faults" makes one human and humans can still overcome those faults in order to become a true hero. Anti-heroes are rarely ever redeemed and, just as we are a capable of being heroes, we're also capable of becoming something loathe-worthy.


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## bazz cargo (Aug 13, 2014)

For absolute bonkers madness you could try Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel rat.


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## Marthix2011 (Aug 13, 2014)

Everyone, thank you for all of the recommendations.  I am looking for any antihero that comes to your minds.  TV show, book, video game, film, anything.  I know there are more female antiheroes out there.  Can anyone please list some female antiheroes and their motivations?  They're less common in media than male antiheroes and I'd be very interested in coming to know these female antiheroes.  Thanks!


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## Deleted member 56686 (Aug 13, 2014)

You're right about the lack of female antiheroes Marthix. The only one that comes close that I can think of is Beatrix Kiddo from the Kill Bill movies.


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## Nickleby (Aug 13, 2014)

Just from a cursory search, I found Scarlett O'Hara, Medea, and Catwoman. And a bunch more from TV--Olivia Pope from _Scandal_, Bree van de Kamp from _Desperate Housewives_, Nancy Botwin from _Weeds_, the title character from _Nurse Jackie_, and the entire casts of _Girls_ and _Orange Is the New Black_. A common thread from the criticism (the TV side, anyway) is that women don't write a lot of TV, so the female characters tend to be, shall we say, one-dimensional.

The male perspective seems to be that women want to be liked, especially by men. An antihero, almost by definition, does _not_ want to be liked, in fact will do things to pointedly avoid affection or loyalty. So most men don't understand female antiheroes because, with their basic understanding of women, they don't believe such people can exist at all.

Of all those characters listed above, the one I know best is Scarlett. She doesn't want to be liked by men, she wants to be worshipped. In her culture, where women are property, she considers herself top-dollar merchandise and acts accordingly. Her fatal flaw is worshipping Ashley, who wants real emotion from a woman. When her circumstances change, she changes as well to protect herself and her birthright. She becomes capable of things she would never before consider, including murder. Eventually she becomes as mercenary as Rhett, but she loses him by choosing Ashley. Her lack of self-awareness fosters certain attitudes to help her survive but also leads her into tragic mistakes.


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## Morkonan (Aug 13, 2014)

bazz cargo said:


> For absolute bonkers madness you could try Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel rat.



Love that stuff. Unfortunately, I never got to finish it and copies are hard to find! I'll have to make a note to scour the shelves in used-book stores. (Definitely not "used-bookstores," 'cause those shelves would be too big...Sorry, I almost typed that, instead, so had to comment on my almost-blunder.  )



Nickleby said:


> ...Of all those characters listed above, the one  I know best is Scarlett. She doesn't want to be liked by men, she wants  to be worshipped. In her culture, where women are property, she  considers herself top-dollar merchandise and acts accordingly. Her fatal  flaw is worshipping Ashley, who wants real emotion from a woman. When  her circumstances change, she changes as well to protect herself and her  birthright. She becomes capable of things she would never before  consider, including murder. Eventually she becomes as mercenary as  Rhett, but she loses him by choosing Ashley. Her lack of self-awareness  fosters certain attitudes to help her survive but also leads her into  tragic mistakes.



Dissect that. 

She wants to be worshiped? Well, what sort of quality in a person would cause that? Is that so undesirable a thing, to be worshiped? Drill down to the most basic cause for that and you'll find things like "vanity." Scarlett is vain and shallow and that is why she is an anti-hero. By the time Scarlett may have been redeemed, she's done too much damage for full redemption.


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## Ixarku (Aug 13, 2014)

Bishop said:


> Ooooh and this guy!!!
> Jack Burton, of "Big Trouble in Little China" has a primary motivation: getting his truck back. Some gangsters steal it, and his friend's fiancee from the airport and he soon finds himself in a world of underground Chinese gangs, slave trading, real sorcery, true evil, and various Chinese hells (there's a lot of them). Eventually, Jack decides he's in too deep and he'll just get another truck--but he knows his friend won't be able to get a new fiancee. So, he goes deeper into the rabbit hole to fight by his side.
> 
> Not as much the quintessential antihero like Snake, he's actually much closer to a traditional hero by the end, doing the good-vs-evil thing. It should also be noted, that in his film, he's actually the side-kick. Carpenter intended for the side-kick and hero roles to be perceptually reversed--the real hero of the film is Wang.




I love this film, by the way, and a lot of Carpenter's other films.  ("The Thing" is my favorite horror movie of all time, and "Prince of Darkness" and "In The Mouth of Madness" are high on my list as well.)  Your observations are spot-on.  My roommate and I have actually talked about how Burton is not really the hero in "Big Trouble".  It's a shame that this film wasn't that well-received when it originally came out.


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## Marthix2011 (Aug 13, 2014)

astroannie said:


> What about anti-heroes that are redeemed in future parts of the series?  Do they count for what you're looking for?



Yes, definitely!  Please share any advice that you have!


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## Kyle R (Aug 13, 2014)

Marthix2011 said:


> A question about motives.  For an antihero, can you guys give me some examples of antiheroes you've came across (books, television shows, films, video games, etc.).  What were their motives?  In other words, why did they kill others in order to get what they want?  Was it to protect or support their family?  Was it a personal matter?  If you guys could list some examples of antihero motives along with examples of antiheroes that stand out, that would be appreciated.



An antihero's motives can be whatever you want them to be, as long as they are noble in some way. Saving a loved one. Stopping a vile crime. Preventing a catastrophe. Finding their lost dog, Maxypoo. Whatever you want.

It's _how_ they go about trying to achieve their goals that matters, and it's also what distinguishes them from a traditional hero. 

A traditional hero will follow the moral and just path when pursuing their goals. An antihero, on the other hand, is not afraid to break the rules, the law, or any other moral code in the process.

Don't confuse an antihero with a villain, though. An antihero still has noble motivations. A villain doesn't. :encouragement:


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## Newman (Aug 15, 2014)

Marthix2011 said:


> As of late, I've been really into antiheroes.  I've been reading up on them and trying to discover ones I can study in order to fully develop the antihero of my story.  A question about motives.  For an antihero, can you guys give me some examples of antiheroes you've came across (books, television shows, films, video games, etc.).  *What were their motives*?  In other words, why did they kill others in order to get what they want?  Was it to protect or support their family?  Was it a personal matter?  If you guys could list some examples of antihero motives along with examples of antiheroes that stand out, that would be appreciated.  I know about Tony Soprano and Walter White.  But who else?  Thanks!



Tony Montana. Scarface.

His motive was to "want it all."


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## Morkonan (Aug 15, 2014)

Kyle R said:


> An antihero's motives can be whatever you want them to be, as long as they are noble in some way. ..



I strongly disagree with this. An "anti-hero" doesn't have to have "noble" motives. In fact, it's more likely that they have no such ideals that could be shared with a traditional "hero." That's why they're an "anti-hero."

A mercenary who's purely "in it for the money" has no noble motivation. They just want to get paid. At best, it's "neutral." To make them a true "anti-hero", we also demonstrate that it's not only their actions that are not based on noble motivations, but that their ethical and moral beliefs can be similarly "purchased." A honorable king hires them to defend an orphanage and they do so with gusto. However, their contract runs out and then they're hired to kidnap children to be used as slaves and as a food-source for a demonic horde. This they do... Now, they're more like an anti-hero. Not because of what we would characterize as the "evil act", but what we must necessary assume about their true nature and moral/ethical world-view being opposite of what we would expect of a traditional "heroic" figure.

But, it's not unusual for focus characters to have some sort of redeeming quality. This really has more to do with engaging the Reader and giving them something to sympathize/empathize with as far as that character is concerned. Anti-heroes also usually do "heroic" things, like leap tall buildings in a single bound, destroy hordes of monsters to rescue the princess and save orphanages at the speed of sound.. whatever. These are "heroic" things, but the motivation for them does not have to be noble.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Aug 15, 2014)

Marthix2011 said:


> Yes, definitely!  Please share any advice that you have!





astroannie said:


> What about anti-heroes that are redeemed in future parts of the series?  Do they count for what you're looking for?



I think I've got one. Xena princess warrior was a villain in the Hercules series. She redeemed herself and was a hero in her own series. This really is an anti-hero


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## nerdybynature (Aug 15, 2014)

The best anti-hero character I can think of across all platforms of media and literature, would have to be a man by the name of Kratos.

Not sure if any of you are familiar with him as he is a character in a Video game. Needless to say he is as heartless as they come and more brutal than the holocaust (hope no offense is taken, just trying to build an idea of how awful a human being this guy is). 

He is a demigod and a soldier, his father is Zeus (he was created solely for the purpose of the game, he holds no real existence in greek mythology). He asked the gods for prowess on the battlefield to help defeat his enemies.  His prayers were answered by none other than his brother Aries the God of war.  It's unclear in my memory what exactly went wrong between them, I played this game many years ago.  Anywho, things turn bad between Kratos and Aries.  Aries then tricks Kratos into killing his wife and daughter by making him believe they were enemy soldiers in his home, the grief causes him to kill him self and is sent to the underworld where he eventually breaks free still endowed with the powers granted to him.  He goes on a murderous rampage killing any and everything in his path on his quest of vengeance.  And the things he does on his bloody rampage are downright ungodly.  I remember at one point he grabbed an innocent woman (who is 100% alive) and shoved her body under a portcullis to keep it propped open killing her in the process. 

He isn't swayed by anything, not even the promise of immortality and the promise of also becoming a god by his father Zeus. He eventually, after killing several other gods and a multitude of innocent people, finds Aries and kills him.  Seeing him as a threat, Zeus promises Kratos he will bring his wife and child back, but it only turns out to be a trap, but their attempt to kill him fails turning his anger and hatred towards Olympus.  However at this point his motives shift a little bit.  He is still fueled by anger and vengeance, but his goal is to rid the world of all the Gods.  Enlisting the help of the titans, he breaks them free from their prison and wreaks havoc on Olympus killing every single God and half-god (even hercules) and finally kills his father(by ripping his head off).  However he succumbs to his wounds and dies in the process, essentially making good on his goal by not only ridding the world of the gods he hated, but himself as well since he was a demigod.


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## David Gordon Burke (Aug 18, 2014)

Kyle R said:


> Don't confuse an antihero with a villain, though. An antihero still has noble motivations. A villain doesn't.



Can't get on board with that one.  Have you watched Sopranoes or Sons of Anarchy?  
The idea of the antihero isn't that he is noble - in many cases he is a sick SOB.  But we understand why he does what he does.  
The antihero story is often told from the point of view of the antihero who, if one were to do a complete rewrite, could have been the villian.  It's perspective. 


WIKI

An *antihero* or *antiheroine* is a leading character in a story who, unlike a traditional hero, lacks conventional heroic qualities such as idealism, courage, and integrity.  

Where's the noblity there?  

Not that I'm a big believer in WIKI.  Just look at their list of antiheros.  Of those that I am familiar with, I'd only agree with Tom Ripley, Dexter  Morgan and Holden Caulfield as Antiheros.  Satan?  100% Villian.  Randall Flagg?  Please....100% Villian.  While we are under the impression that Serverus Snape has betrayed Professor Dumbledorf we believe him to be Villian.  Once he is redeemed, well, he's redeemed and is now Hero.  Our feelings about his deception don't color his motives or actions....he is no antihero.  (Possibly even more heroic to go undercover on the side of Voltemort knowing he would be considered a traitor by all.....truly heroic.  

David Gordon Burke


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## Kyle R (Aug 18, 2014)

You bring up an interesting discussion, David.

What distinguishes an antihero from a villain?

Is it perspective alone?

Would a story told from Satan's POV be a story told from the _villain's_ perspective, or a story told from an _antihero's_ perspective? And why?

Fun questions to ponder. :encouragement:


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## BeastlyBeast (Aug 18, 2014)

Kyle R said:


> You bring up an interesting discussion, David.
> 
> What distinguishes an antihero from a villain?
> 
> ...



I believe that a story told from Satan's perspective would be a villain perspective book. Reason being, Satan doesn't necessarily believe that his ways are better. Satan isn't looking out for our best interests, just in a different way than God. Satan is messing with humans and driving the world into a dangerous state purely out of rebellion and contempt for God having all the power. The main point with an antihero is his _actions_ are questionable, but his _motives_ are at least understandable. There's nothing justifiable, or even understandable about Satan's motives or his actions. That's why I believe Satan's POV is villlanous, not anti-hero-like.


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## HalcyonDiscordia (Aug 18, 2014)

This conversation is extremely interesting, if for no other reason than the many definitions of Anti-Hero being used.

My personal belief towards the definition is more in-line with Kyle R's:


			
				Kyle R said:
			
		

> An antihero's motives can be whatever you want them to be, as long as they are noble in some way. Saving a loved one. Stopping a vile crime. Preventing a catastrophe. Finding their lost dog, Maxypoo. Whatever you want.
> 
> It's _how they go about trying to achieve their goals that matters, and it's also what distinguishes them from a traditional hero._



or, in the words of Salvor Hardin, from _Foundation_ by Isaac Asimov:
"Never let your morals get in the way of doing whats right."

My two cents on that subject aside, my two favourite Anti-heroes would definitely be the Punisher of _Punisher_ by Marvel comics, and Hei of _Darker than black _by Tensai Okamura.

Both have simple and even noble motivations: Justice and vengeance for the former, and Finding his missing sister for the latter. The fact that neither balks at killing, threats, theft, and even torture in the pursuit of their goal, is what makes them both a great anti-hero, and a supremely satisfying character in general: Their actions are statements of the primal nature of their needs, and how it has grown so deep that moral inhibitions no longer hold sway over their physical actions.


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