# Suggestions For Writing In the Perspective of a Woman (1 Viewer)



## LoveofWriting (Sep 17, 2021)

How do I do that? I am writing a story that has a woman in it and I need answers to how I can write like one? I am a male writer who has a main character as woman. Does anyone have any novels where a woman is the main character? Or self-help books to help me with this challenge?


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## KeganThompson (Sep 17, 2021)

LoveofWriting said:


> How do I do that? I am writing a story that has a woman in it and I need answers to how I can write like one? I am a male writer who has a main character as woman. Does anyone have any novels where a woman is the main character? Or self-help books to help me with this challenge?


What, in particular, are you struggling with? Is there certain areas you feel you need perspective on more than others? Is it in the first or third person? What genre is the story?
Breaking it down into smaller bits and looking at it that way may help. I recommend you read books with the genre you are writing with a female lead. That may help


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## PiP (Sep 17, 2021)

This discussion might help with your conundrum








						The other gender/sex voice
					


So a bit of an interesting question. (and hopefully NOT controversial  :rolleyes: 😬 ) How often is your main protag the "other" gender? And do you find it harder to write them/ about them? Whether that be in the first or third person. I'd say first would be harder than third out of the two but...





					www.writingforums.com
				




Try eavesdropping on women's conversations.


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## Phil Istine (Sep 17, 2021)

PiP said:


> Try eavesdropping on women's conversations.


Yes, I can see that going well.


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## Non Serviam (Sep 17, 2021)

LoveofWriting said:


> How do I do that?



Don't try to write from a woman's point of view, or your attempt will ring false.

Write from the point of view of a unique and interesting person who happens to be female.  That will work fine.

And... err, how to phrase this.  There's a scene that some writers produce, when they're writing about someone of the opposite gender.  I call it the Mirror Scene, although it can also be a pool of water or seeing themselves through a camera or something.  Anyway, it's the scene where the protagonist looks in a mirror and notices her voluptuous curves and amazing cheekbones (or when women writers write about men, his slim hips, manly chest and cruel but sensual mouth).  Please don't do that scene in any form!

If your character is startlingly attractive and this actually matters to the plot, then the best way to convey this to the reader is through dialogue, such as a scene in which an antagonist expresses jealousy of them.


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## PiP (Sep 17, 2021)

Phil Istine said:


> Yes, I can see that going well.









I people watch and often listen to men gabbing away. Football, Golf, Fishing Sex. Sex, Football, Fishing Golf. Brexit. Cars. DIY. Food, Motorbikes. Rugby... Job List


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## PiP (Sep 17, 2021)

Non Serviam said:


> And... err, how to phrase this.  There's a scene that some writers produce, when they're writing about someone of the opposite gender.  I call it the Mirror Scene, although it can also be a pool of water or seeing themselves through a camera or something.  Anyway, it's the scene where the protagonist looks in a mirror and notices her voluptuous curves and amazing cheekbones* (or when women writers write about men, his slim hips, manly chest and cruel but sensual mouth)*.  Please don't do that scene in any form!
> 
> If your character is startlingly attractive and this actually matters to the plot, then the best way to convey this to the reader is through dialogue, such as a scene in which an antagonist expresses jealousy of them.


Helpful advice. I am a woman and one of the chapters I need to write is from a man's perspective.


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## LoveofWriting (Sep 17, 2021)

KeganThompson said:


> What, in particular, are you struggling with? Is there certain areas you feel you need perspective on more than others? Is it in the first or third person? What genre is the story?
> Breaking it down into smaller bits and looking at it that way may help. I recommend you read books with the genre you are writing with a female lead. That may help



Can you recommended me books that have a female lead? Though I'm thinking Twilight or Divergent.

I need to mention that the story is in first person and the genre is literary fiction with some sci fi and fantasy, I am experimenting with genre.


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## Foxee (Sep 17, 2021)

Read any of the Stephanie Plum books...they're fun to read.


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## KeganThompson (Sep 17, 2021)

LoveofWriting said:


> Can you recommended me books that have a female lead? Though I'm thinking Twilight or Divergent.
> 
> I need to mention that the story is in first person and the genre is literary fiction with some sci fi and fantasy, I am experimenting with genre.


I just finished the hunger games and am about to start in the second book in the serious. The female lead has a different perspective than what I'm use to reading. That might be due to the genre shift from the other books I've read tho. 
I recommend checking it out.


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## LoveofWriting (Sep 17, 2021)

KeganThompson said:


> I just finished the hunger games and am about to start in the second book in the serious. The female lead has a different perspective than what I'm use to reading. That might be due to the genre shift from the other books I've read tho.
> I recommend checking it out.



Sure, thanks.


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## Llyralen (Sep 17, 2021)

1.  I wish MANY MANY MANY men were asking the same thing.  Because there are many men who need to realize they aren't writing women well.   Realizing that you need help is the first step.
2. Women's brains aren't very different from men's.  This info from a neuroscientist I follow:  once you get past the reproductive years you can't tell the difference between a man or woman's brain.  Notice that sometimes online if the tag is androgynous, you can't tell the sex of the person you are talking to.  There is a reason for that... it's that women and men don't think very differently.  We are treated very differently in society, though.  Sometimes our situations and the expectations placed on us are different, but the brain there is not really different.
3.  Given #2, I'd just write like the person is a person.  If usually person means "man" for you, then write for a man and give her a woman's name.  That would be so much better than what so many men do.

The Big Mistakes I See Made _All the TIme_:
The sexual aspect of the woman is ALL she is.  There isn't even a human there.  It's all about the author interacting with her like she is a talking ice cream sunday that he is allowed to decorate with sprinkles and create exactly how he dreams the most tempting sunday would be-- but the sunday has no intentions outside of being available and lucious.  She doesn't get mad for non-sexual reasons, she doesn't get disappointed for non-sexual reasons, she doesn't get excited for non-sexual reasons, she doesn't have hobbies for non-sexual reasons, she doesn't have pursuits for non-sexual reasons, she doesn't have a back-story for non-sexual reasons.  She doesn't walk non-sexually, she doesn't talk non-sexually, etc. etc ad nauseum.  Humans have all sorts of non-sexual thinking and reasons. A man's sexuality is only a part of him.  A woman's sexuality is only a part of her.  If you can replace your woman character with a talking ice cream sunday then.... just do what I said in #3.    The other thing you see is maybe just 1-2 things about the woman might be non-sexual and endearing and played up, but it's still all about whether the male MC "wins" her or not.  Make sure your female character has something she wants that has nothing to do with sex.

Anyway, I think it's great that you asked.  Books with women MCs are plentiful, but it's amazing how many men have chosen to read few of them.  The more you read them, probably the more you will realize that each woman is as different as each man and think pretty much like anyone would given the situation and the brain, experience, and skills that they have.

A few questions for you:
Can we ask why you're choosing a woman as MC?  (I want to encourage you fully, but it sounds like this is a stretch for you?  Stretch away, I'm encouraging but curious.)
Are you going to attempt to write realistically about adolescence, first love or emerging sexuality, pregnancy, breastfeeding, or motherhood or grandmotherhood? Has she experienced discrimination (actually most women probably have against women, but.. is it key in your story?), something horrific like rape, or some other compromising situation? Those might be more advanced subject situations that you might need to ask a lot of questions about before embarking... a LOT.


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## Lawless (Sep 18, 2021)

LoveofWriting said:


> writing a story that has a woman in it and I need answers to how I can write like one?



I could give you a pleasant answer and an unpleasant answer.

The pleasant answer is: if you give her just any old personality and a woman's body, then the majority of male readers will buy it. Women will roll their eyes a little bit but read on anyway, because firstly, they have long given up expecting men to understand women, and secondly, it's interesting to see how a man sees women.

The beautiful thing is, even if you happen to get one or another thing wrong, that is, make her act or think or feel very differently from the vast majority of real-world women, many will praise you for "boldly defying the gender stereotypes".

Mind you, I'm not being sarcastic here. I really believe you have good chances to get away with it.

To cut the long story short, I dare to suggest you don't have much to worry about. Just go on writing the way that feels right to you.


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## LoveofWriting (Sep 18, 2021)

Lawless said:


> I could give you a pleasant answer and an unpleasant answer.
> 
> The pleasant answer is: if you give her just any old personality and a woman's body, then the majority of male readers will buy it. Women will roll their eyes a little bit but read on anyway, because firstly, they have long given up expecting men to understand women, and secondly, it's interesting to see how a man sees women.
> 
> ...



That seems like good advice, thank you.


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## Phil Istine (Sep 18, 2021)

PiP said:


> I people watch and often listen to men gabbing away. Football, Golf, Fishing Sex. Sex, Football, Fishing Golf. Brexit. Cars. DIY. Food, Motorbikes. Rugby... Job List


I don't often converse about those things with other guys.  Football sometimes maybe, and I try to avoid Brexit now, but politics and conservation (not conversation  ).  When I do chat it's usually with women as I'm not really into blokey things apart from football.  Come to think of it, I don't converse much at all as I live and work on my own.  If I don't go out, I can easily go several days without uttering a single word.  Now I've written that, something about it seems a bit weird.


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## Llyralen (Sep 18, 2021)

Lawless said:


> The pleasant answer is: if you give her just any old personality and a woman's body, then the majority of male readers will buy it. Women will roll their eyes a little bit but read on anyway, because firstly, they have long given up expecting men to understand women, and secondly, it's interesting to see how a man sees women.


This is my problem. I haven't given up and I set myself up for disappointment.  Still, it feels like if I gave up then I wouldn't be optimistic me and would just be accepting that many men will only see me as alien and inferior or only interesting if they think I'm interesting-looking.   I keep thinking "I am obviously knowledgeable and capable and funny and my brain is interesting. There is no denying this... right?"   Meh...?   Oh Ugg....

Ugg.  I guess I can't reprogram thousands of years of suppression in a day.  It might take 2 days.


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## Mark Twain't (Sep 18, 2021)

My MCs are female (1st & 3rd person). The only advice I can give you is don't try too hard, it'll come across as forced and false.


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## PiP (Sep 18, 2021)

Phil Istine said:


> I don't often converse about those things with other guys.  Football sometimes maybe, and I try to avoid Brexit now, but politics and conservation (not conversation  ).  When I do chat it's usually with women as I'm not really into blokey things apart from football.  Come to think of it, I don't converse much at all as I live and work on my own.  If I don't go out, I can easily go several days without uttering a single word.  Now I've written that, something about it seems a bit weird.


I hear you, Phil. While I don't live alone I have found since COVID I genuinely prefer my own company and struggle with girlie conversations with other women. When I was back in the UK I listened to the girlie conversations between my daughter-in-laws  and yawned out after a while. In hindsight, it was wrong of me to generalise about men any more than we can generalise women

I think it would be fair to suggest that the OP should profile his main character first.

According to a dating site there are twelve types of women


Even though I am a woman your question made me reconsider the overall personality and type of woman I want to project for my MC and her friends


This site made me laugh according to surfers there are only four (topless women alert)








						2. THERE ARE FOUR TYPES OF WOMAN | THERE ARE FOUR TYPES OF WOMAN - Page 2 of 2 - Surf Europe
					


Man season continues on SE dot com... It's Chas Smith's guide to women!





					surfeuropemag.com
				



.


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## Phil Istine (Sep 18, 2021)

PiP said:


> I hear you, Phil. While I don't live alone I have found since COVID I genuinely prefer my own company and struggle with girlie conversations with other women. When I was back in the UK I listened to the girlie conversations between my daughter-in-laws  and yawned out after a while. In hindsight, it was wrong of me to generalise about men any more than we can generalise women
> 
> I think it would be fair to suggest that the OP should profile his main character first.
> 
> ...


There are three types of men: those who can count and those who can't.


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## bdcharles (Sep 18, 2021)

LoveofWriting said:


> Can you recommended me books that have a female lead? Though I'm thinking Twilight or Divergent.
> 
> I need to mention that the story is in first person and the genre is literary fiction with some sci fi and fantasy, I am experimenting with genre.


My novel is written from a female perspective (3rd though, not 1st) and of a similar genre to yours. So therefore I shall recommend my own book (See sig) 

I tend to default to female protagonists even though I am male. I am not sure it's because I am unmanly or I obsess over the opposite gender, but I just find women more interesting. Whenever I try and write a man it comes off really crummy unless it happens naturally.


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## Dluuni (Sep 24, 2021)

If you need to convince someone a character is a woman (I so hate "female") then have them interact with things that are stereotypically feminine, even if the interaction is to show they dislike the thing. Likewise, don't have them interact with masculine stereotypes. 
I don't know why that works, but it helps a lot. I had to do it a lot when I was younger; protesting feminine things makes people associate you with femininity, protesting masculine things associates you with masculinity.


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## EmmaSohan (Sep 24, 2021)

In one of my books, someone gave my MC something to read, she went to read it, AND I SUDDENLY REMEMBERED THAT SHE COULDN'T READ. I was embarrassed to make that rookie mistake.

So, you can sit down and ask what it would be like if YOU couldn't read. You would be frustrated, right?

WRONG. The story wasn't about YOU, or me. It was a primitive fantasy world and none of the women went to school. Why would my MC be frustrated? What would it be like to be a woman and think it the proper order of things that she wan't taught to read? Why would I want to give her a 21st century attitude?

I mean, when you try to put yourself in your character's heels, it should be more than if you had her body -- what if you also had her knowledge, her abilities, her goals, her worries, lived in her culture?

Plus, probably relevant, I never told the reader she couldn't read. That was only implied by her actions. Really, the OP asked how to "show" femaleness.

Then just multiply the problems of portraying illiteracy by a thousand for writing about males and females. Laughing. Read part of my book, Love, and I'll tell you the easy trick. And, as a writer, you don't have to get everything right, no one does, people have already said that. You just have to do something well,  but the more things that work, the better, of course. Thank you for caring and trying.



> When I arrive home, I notice my father's books. He has four. That is not nearly as many as Teacher Wei, but he has more than most men. I feel their leather covers with my fingers and wonder what kind of knowledge would interest my father.


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## Foxee (Sep 24, 2021)

I've been sampling a lot of different authors (like sampling audiobooks and ebooks) and find a lot more misses than hits for what I find natural and that I like. One weird thing that I noticed is that female authors writing a female protagonist are not automatically appealing to me. I should start keeping track but I think I might nope out of books-written-by-women-about-women at a slightly higher rate than others? 

Often I feel like I'm being sold on a female character who does it all...she's being a mom or she's pregnant and she's also a crack detective who pours everything into her work. To be clear, I'm sure some women can do this, the problem for me is that I know I'm not this amazing and I can't imagine being stellar at everything at once. Even if the character ISN'T stellar at everything and there isn't a Mary-Sue issue it feels kind of exhausting, like all the expectations that I "bring home the bacon and fry it up in a pan" have come home to roost. 

Of the authors I like who are men, they certainly do write from a feminine POV although circumspectly, I think, much like Non Serviam's advice here. They simply write an interesting character who is a woman. I enjoy Dean Koontz a lot for being adventurous with his POV's and writing men, women, girls, boys, supernatural beings, and even the POV of a dog (I really enjoyed that one).

Keep your eye on the objective: write something that is so engaging and engrossing that the reader forgets that they're reading a story. Aim for the suspension of disbelief. And if your beta readers say, "Hey, I really stumbled over that feminine POV" then listen to that. But don't avoid trying it.


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## indianroads (Sep 24, 2021)

For what it's worth, I've encountered many female authors that are terrible at writing male characters. I think it can be a challenge for each sex, but it can be surmounted to a reasonable degree at least by paying attention to people we know in real life. Some succeed in writing the opposite sex successfully - my wife and daughters tells me that the male author of the book 'Diary of a Geisha' got it exactly right (although other women might disagree).


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## Dluuni (Sep 24, 2021)

The other thing that comes to mind this morning. The tip is to just write a person and then declare them a woman, sure, but the world is different when you are read as a woman than it is when you are read as a man. Men can walk at night safely. Women are treated as prey. Men are terrible! Nine of them will be kind and respectful, then the tenth, one of the friends of the first nine, will be horror movie frightening to you, and his friends will protect him and make excuses. That kind of thing changes how one interacts with the world, and drives most of the differences people see.


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## Foxee (Sep 24, 2021)

"Men can be terrible," so can women. I really think that's an equal opportunity sort of thing.  Different terribleness, maybe, but let's not get carried away.

"Women are treated as prey" Sure, sometimes, by some scumbags. It's a very good reason to understand situational awareness rather than staring at your phone when you're walking around in transitional spaces.

Evil resides in the human heart regardless of gender. I would hate to miss out on a female villain just because we don't understand this.


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## indianroads (Sep 24, 2021)

Foxee said:


> "Men can be terrible," so can women. I really think that's an equal opportunity sort of thing.  Different terribleness, maybe, but let's not get carried away.
> 
> "Women are treated as prey" Sure, sometimes, by some scumbags. It's a very good reason to understand situational awareness rather than staring at your phone when you're walking around in transitional spaces.
> 
> Evil resides in the human heart regardless of gender. I would hate to miss out on a female villain just because we don't understand this.


I often teach self defense classes, and among the first things discussed is situational awareness. Also where you go, when you go there, and who you go there with. ALSO, since we live in the internet age, meeting people on line via dating apps - there's a strict protocol you should follow to stay safe.

I've known men that met some nice gal that led him into a trap and he was assaulted by her scumbag boyfriend. There are also women that latch on to a guy as just a resource, and clean them out. There are a lot of nasty people out there, and are not limited by gender.


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## Digital Dive Labs (Sep 24, 2021)

The best advice I could give is to not treat her differently than you would a man, and because everyone's already said that, the second best thing I have is that you should also be mindful of how you write the characters surrounding her. Do _they_ treat her differently than they would a man?

From a literary perspective, that's _okay_ - so long as you have a plan for why you're writing them like that. Conflict drives drama, and flawed characters are ripe for conflict. The people around her don't need to always agree with her or want the same things, but if she notices that they respond to her differently than they do to men, it warrants disappointment, confrontation, and (if they're an important part of her life) a reassessment of where they stand with her.

As an example, in a coming-of-age story the main character decides to save up money for a post-graduation road trip, but her dad has concerns ("Do you know how to change a tire?" "Yes, Dad" "Oil?" "Yes, Dad" "Will there be boys?"). This goes on for weeks, and all the while she can't help but notice that her dad has not once pestered her brother about his own plan to go to the beach ("Cool, Ralphington the Third, enjoy your youth!"). She grapples with whether her father sees her as capable, and in the climax she decides she'd rather spend the money on moving into her own place.

Simply by asking the question, you're ahead of probably 70% of authors out there, including quite a few famous authors I've read.


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## indianroads (Sep 24, 2021)

Digital Dive Labs said:


> The best advice I could give is to not treat her differently than you would a man, and because everyone's already said that, the second best thing I have is that you should also be mindful of how you write the characters surrounding her. Do _they_ treat her differently than they would a man?
> 
> From a literary perspective, that's _okay_ - so long as you have a plan for why you're writing them like that. Conflict drives drama, and flawed characters are ripe for conflict. The people around her don't need to always agree with her or want the same things, but if she notices that they respond to her differently than they do to men, it warrants disappointment, confrontation, and (if they're an important part of her life) a reassessment of where they stand with her.
> 
> ...


I'll respectively disagree - somewhat. There are differences that need to be acknowledged, but these are broad stroke differences and individuals differ wildly. It's been my experience that male and female authors make similar mistakes when writing the opposite sex - they write caricatures rather than people. 

In broad strokes, women tend to feel cold more than men do, they care more about clothes, fashion and their appearance in general, in speech they enunciate better than men do, they catch nuances of expression and mannerisms before men do. Some of this is via nurture and the rest via nature. Certainly, we're more alike than different, but capturing the subtitles in your writing will make a difference.


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## BornForBurning (Sep 25, 2021)

You might ask why _you_ find yourself being drawn towards writing a female protagonist. It's an aesthetic construction, after all. At least theoretically, there's an artistic reason your brain is drawn towards that idea, whatever form it is taking.


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## LoveofWriting (Sep 25, 2021)

BornForBurning said:


> You might ask why _you_ find yourself being drawn towards writing a female protagonist. It's an aesthetic construction, after all. At least theoretically, there's an artistic reason your brain is drawn towards that idea, whatever form it is taking.



That is true, but still I feel like writing in a woman perspective because mostly I want to be versatile when it comes to writing different genders.


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## JBF (Sep 25, 2021)

At the risk of sounding flippant, stop worrying about the sex of your POV character.  Don't dismiss it entirely (there _are _some key differences in how men and women operate, mentally and otherwise) but focusing too closely on one aspect of going outside your experience is a little like watching kids trying to learn cursive.  Odds are they're going waaaaaay too slow trying to get the flow correct and bearing down hard enough to engrave the desk underneath.  The result is legible, but it's neither smooth or natural and anybody with a little experience is going to see the hallmarks of a rank amateur.  Same for wobbling all over the place trying to ride a bike at falling speed.  Or slowing down a baseball pitch to the point of useless absurdity.

_Competence at speed_ is often better, easier, and more enjoyable than _glacial precision_.

No Rosetta Stone exists for translating man-voice to woman-voice (or the other way around).  Not here, not on Quora...damn sure not on Reddit.  A dozen women will give you a dozen different suggestions.   Unless you can understand where their logic is rooted, every one will be wrong for you.

The sex of a character is an accent, not a straightjacket.  Be aware of it, heed it when necessary, but realize there are other details more deserving of your attention.  Go where the narrative weight lies (hint: it's probably not down your character's pants).  Don't ask what a woman would do.  Ask what your specific character would do in light of her preferences, experiences, circumstances, wants, needs, past, or emotional state.

Don't try to write characters through a _female _filter.

Write your women through a _character _filter.


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## cozwry (Sep 25, 2021)

A woman will wash her hands, whilst a man would spit. A woman would comb her hair, whilst a man would have a beer. A woman would play tennis, whilst a man would be at the book store. A woman would cry, when a man would laugh. It’s not about love, it’s about babies.

Check out Fuel - Shimmer on YouTube, it’s got a video clip.


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## VRanger (Sep 25, 2021)

I've never in my life written to "convince someone a character is a woman".

First, readers aren't grading your characters. Unless a depiction is so ham-handed or insulting it forces the reader to conclude the author is an idiot, all the author has to do is identify who the character is, male or female, plus any number of other factors. No "sale" is involved, just don't screw up. I couldn't begin to describe how to "write a man" or how to "write a woman", because of the hundreds of each I've known personally in my life, they were all different.

Like JBF said, write the character. The character is in the story for a purpose, with a role to fill. The character should fill that role.

Even in some sort of a specific dramatic character study, you're still writing an individual person. If a writer thinks a drug addict or a formerly victimized person must meet a specific list of standards, they're not writing a character, they're writing a stereotype. The same goes for thinking there are set rules for a male or female character.


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## indianroads (Sep 25, 2021)

Try reading Ursula Le Guin’s Left Hand of Darkness as a reference.

or

Asimov’s The Gods Themselves


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## Taylor (Sep 25, 2021)

This question arises here frequently and rightly so.  We often hear the advice, "write what you know," but how can we possibly _know_ what it feels like to be another gender?  However, we can't restrict our POV to only one gender.  Well, I guess we can, but something doesn't seem right about that.   We should continue to unmask the mystery.  What makes us buy into a female POV vs a male POV?

I agree there is a difference, and it may not be as obvious as to how they dress, speak or interact with others. As a reader, I don't notice when it is done right, but often notice it is not done well.  I finally finished reading _The Queens Gambit. _ I had started it some time ago.  Part of the reason I put it down midway was that I watched the Netflix series.  That was amazing!  Typically, I enjoy a book more than the movie, but not in this case.  I won't give a spoiler but some sexual scenes were omitted and some maternal emotions were augmented.   It made a big difference for my enjoyment and ability to relate to the protagonist. Hard to explain why, but in short, for me, the series captured a female POV better than the book.   I wish I could theorize this in a set of rules, but as many have already mentioned, set standards don't work in writing anything.  You could read the book and watch the series to see if you notice the difference.

Not sure if this sheds any light, but I commend you as a writer for wanting to do it right.


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## indianroads (Sep 25, 2021)

Taylor said:


> This question arises here frequently and rightly so.  We often hear the advice, "write what you know," but how can we possibly _know_ what it feels like to be another gender?  However, we can't restrict our POV to only one gender.  Well, I guess we can, but something doesn't seem right about that.   We should continue to unmask the mystery.  What makes us buy into a female POV vs a male POV?
> 
> I agree there is a difference, and it may not be as obvious as to how they dress, speak or interact with others. As a reader, I don't notice when it is done right, but often notice it is not done well.  I finally finished reading _The Queens Gambit. _ I had started it some time ago.  Part of the reason I put it down midway was that I watched the Netflix series.  That was amazing!  Typically, I enjoy a book more than the movie, but not in this case.  I won't give a spoiler but some sexual scenes were omitted and some maternal emotions were augmented.   It made a big difference for my enjoyment and ability to relate to the protagonist. Hard to explain why, but in short, for me, the series captured a female POV better than the book.   I wish I could theorize this in a set of rules, but as many have already mentioned, set standards don't work in writing anything.  You could read the book and watch the series to see if you notice the difference.
> 
> Not sure if this sheds any light, but I commend you as a writer for wanting to do it right.


Have you read 'Diary of a Geisha' by Rob Marshall? My wife and both daughters swear the author captured the female POV perfectly - they were all astounded that a _man_ could write such a thing (seems sexist to me, but never mind).


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## Taylor (Sep 25, 2021)

indianroads said:


> Have you read 'Diary of a Geisha' by Rob Marshall? My wife and both daughters swear the author captured the female POV perfectly - they were all astounded that a _man_ could write such a thing (seems sexist to me, but never mind).


I think you mean _Memoirs of a Geisha_ by Arthur Golden. I had to google it to remember it.  There was also a fantastic movie directed by Rob Marshall.  And yes I did. But I don't remember specifically marveling that a male wrote it.   But that's what I mean by when it's done right, I don't even think about it.


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## indianroads (Sep 25, 2021)

Taylor said:


> I think you mean _Memoirs of a Geisha_ by Arthur Golden. I had to google it to remember it.  There was also a fantastic movie directed by Rob Marshall.  And yes I did. But I don't remember specifically marveling that a male wrote it.   But that's what I mean by when it's done right, I don't even think about it.


Ah you’re right. I didn’t read it, but my wife and daughters loved it.


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## thereplacement (Sep 26, 2021)

Non Serviam said:


> And... err, how to phrase this.  There's a scene that some writers produce, when they're writing about someone of the opposite gender.  I call it the Mirror Scene, although it can also be a pool of water or seeing themselves through a camera or something.  Anyway, it's the scene where the protagonist looks in a mirror and notices her voluptuous curves and amazing cheekbones (or when women writers write about men, his slim hips, manly chest and cruel but sensual mouth).  Please don't do that scene in any form!



These sort of scenes sound awful. Thankfully, I haven't read a lot of work that include "mirror scenes." I think OP just wants a little guidance on how a woman tends to act differently than your typical male character. I used to get hung up on the female voice and how I couldn't possibly ever be able to tap into the mind of a female because I am a male. Now, I just know there isn't a cookie cutter variety of female who only females can write effectively. People are all different. 

Run wild with character development. Have fun. And keep writing.


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## Dluuni (Sep 26, 2021)

thereplacement said:


> I think OP just wants a little guidance on how a woman tends to act differently than your typical male character. I used to get hung up on the female voice and how I couldn't possibly ever be able to tap into the mind of a female because I am a male. Now, I just know there isn't a cookie cutter variety of female who only females can write effectively.


And yeah. I mean, the world will react differently and that may need to be watched for. No leaving drinks unattended, stuff like that. And you can sell it by not interacting with "masculine" stereotypes much, and by reacting to (not necessarily agreeing with) "feminine" stereotypes, if needed. (From personal experience, this works, though it can be very tedious.)
But beyond that, it's a "don't overthink this" thing. The differences are very subtle, and probably won't come out on writing. Readers would not grasp what you were saying if you tried to include them. Too abstract and arcane. I honestly don't know why the ones out there matter.


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## PiP (Sep 26, 2021)

Women have a different perspective to certain situations than men. How old is your female MC?

This morning we went to the beach. As we were leaving there was a scantily clad young girl performing all her bendy down stretching, kuma sutra exercises near the thoroughfare so there was no avoiding eye contact ...

 Butt pointing skywards, hands flat on the ground - legs wide apart and straight ... her undercarriage did not leave much to the imagination as her skimpy bikini bottom disappeared like floss into the crack of her bottom. I was shocked....well...actually I was jealous of her toned bronze body. As a man how would you have reacted to her performance. Now think how you'd react as a woman.
(I watched the men and they made me laugh)


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## Phil Istine (Sep 26, 2021)

PiP said:


> Women have a different perspective to certain situations than men. How old is your female MC?
> 
> This morning we went to the beach. As we were leaving there was a scantily clad young girl performing all her bendy down stretching, kuma sutra exercises near the thoroughfare so there was no avoiding eye contact ...
> 
> ...


I'd pretend to not notice.  Now you know why men wear sunglasses.


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## PiP (Sep 26, 2021)

Phil Istine said:


> I'd pretend to not notice.  Now you know why men wear sunglasses.



But how would you react as another woman. And what about the woman who was offering such a sensual performance in such a public place


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## Phil Istine (Sep 26, 2021)

PiP said:


> But how would you react as another woman. And what about the woman who was offering such a sensual performance in such a public place


It's hard to empathise but I'd probably still pretend to not notice and maybe I would be thinking in terms of an eye roll even though I wouldn't let it show.


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## Dluuni (Sep 26, 2021)

PiP said:


> But how would you react as another woman. And what about the woman who was offering such a sensual performance in such a public place


...Envy? The publicness grants some safety. Looks like a flex to me, and she's right, I can't pull that off. Not right now.
I don't really care what the guys are thinking, they're supposed to be civilized enough to keep their hands off. Looks like she's just enjoying being able to do that, and people often don't have a private space to exercise. There's lots of things going on there that have nothing to do with "sensual". Maybe I'm just having an ace moment here, but it's most likely not at all for the guys.


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## BornForBurning (Sep 28, 2021)

> As a man how would you have reacted to her performance.


thanks I hate it


> I used to get hung up on the female voice and how I couldn't possibly ever be able to tap into the mind of a female because I am a male.


Maybe the female voice _is _a distinct thing though. And maybe, we can still tap into stuff that is truly alien...that might be one of my primary artistic contentions. I think we can begin to know what we do not know. Don't ask me how that works. I just suspect that we can. I know that I often experience the thrill of xenophilia while I am writing; it might be one of my primary attractions to the craft.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Sep 28, 2021)

There are over 7 billion people on this planet. Regardless of how you write a female or male character, only a generalisation could possibly argue they're wrong. If you want two dimensional and traditional characters, by all means cater to those generalisations. If you don't want those generalisations, write your character the way you want your character and be damned with critics. Don't tick boxes. Be different.


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## Llyralen (Sep 29, 2021)

It really bothers me that men think they can’t understand women if they tried to… that’s one of the problems, in my opinion.  Thinking that women are “other” rather than understandable given their situation just like any man.

 “Women can understand men” is that accepted?  Why not the reverse unless from learned prejudice? We are all human with the same kinds of emotions and thinking.  I’m not an alien.


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## JBF (Sep 29, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> I’m not an alien.



I might be.  Jury's still out. 



Llyralen said:


> “Women can understand men” is that accepted?



Some can.  Some can't.  Admittedly, female authors tend towards more realistic depictions of male characters, but I suspect the distribution is more along the lines of a bell curve - there's really atrocious, a larger pool of average to good, and a comparatively small group who do it right and make it look easy. 

In my experience, a decent author (male or female) can more often than not write a passable character so as long as said characters is operating solo and isn't fixated strictly on sex.  The big stumbling block lies in group dynamics - both because men and women have different social mechanics, and because when you start putting groups together the collective IQ usually drops a good ten points.  Pack animals and lone wolves and all. 

If they can effectively depict both men and women in homogenous or mixed company without breaking believability...then they can call themselves good. 

Then again, some write aliens.


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## Taylor (Sep 29, 2021)

JBF said:


> In my experience, a decent author (male or female) can more often than not write a passable character so as long as said characters is operating solo and isn't fixated strictly on sex.


So true!  I find the most common difficulty with writing a gender different from the author, is understanding what makes someone romantically/sexually attractive. 


JBF said:


> The big stumbling block lies in group dynamics - both because men and women have different social mechanics, and because when you start putting groups together the collective IQ usually drops a good ten points.  Pack animals and lone wolves and all.


JBF - a very astute point!  And it happens differently for males and females.  Whereas for males IQ drop may circle around women's body parts. (A wild guess) For females, the drop may be more focused on material things.  When they get in a group, females have a horrible tendency to compare. Just my experience.


JBF said:


> If they can effectively depict both men and women in homogenous or mixed company without breaking believability...then they can call themselves good.


Another brilliant point!  I'll have to aspire to do that.


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## indianroads (Sep 29, 2021)

JBF said:


> I might be.  Jury's still out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A few years ago I had to attend an event in Denver, it was a chilly December morning, 24 F, but the roads were free of ice so I took my motorcycle. My wife gave me the strangest look... it was almost as if she didn't understand my need to ride.


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## Taylor (Sep 29, 2021)

indianroads said:


> A few years ago I had to attend an event in Denver, it was a chilly December morning, 24 F, but the roads were free of ice so I took my motorcycle. My wife gave me the strangest look... it was almost as if she didn't understand my need to ride.


Not sure I get it either.  Can you tell us more?


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## indianroads (Sep 29, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Not sure I get it either.  Can you tell us more?


Riding... you know... gotta do it. Being outside in the world is better than looking at it from inside a sensory deprivation chamber (aka car).


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## indianroads (Sep 29, 2021)

Ok - now lets talk about those pumps you wear - you know the ones... 7" spike heel and your toes mashed to the front. What's up with that?

Several years ago my wife and I went out for a fancy dinner (forget the occasion) at the Stagecoach Inn in Manitou Springs. She got dolled up, pretty dress and shoes as was described above; she looked nice.
When we arrived we discovered that the parking lot was below the restaurant. It was winter, it had rained a bit earlier in the day so there was a bit of ice on the tarmac, and she had to walk up hill in those stupid uncomfortable shoes. She assumed a posture of bent knees, leaning forward with her arms extended in front of her while I strolled easily up the incline.
"Get back here and help me," she kept saying, but I was laughing too hard to comply.
Finally I went down and gave her assistance; still laughing.
"Shut up you, just shut up," she repeated. "I look good, and you know it."

So... explain that.


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## Taylor (Sep 29, 2021)

indianroads said:


> Ok - now lets talk about those pumps you wear - you know the ones... 7" spike heel and your toes mashed to the front. What's up with that?


You should know better than to get me started on fashion!  I think this still falls in the realm of the OP. 

Funny you should mention the spike heels. I have a scene in my book about this very thing!  And yes, I also wore them, but for me only for special occasions.  But I remember even in the corporate world, female executives wearing them, and with bare legs no less.  And they would teeter along beside the men wearing pants, flat shoes, and socks.   I could never figure out how a woman in power would want to disadvantage herself to men, by being so uncomfortable.  But perhaps the mystery of the stiletto heel can be uncovered in this thread.  You tell me...are these 7" heel-wearing women hindering their performance?  I definitely felt a glass ceiling at points in my career...perhaps the stilettos would have helped.


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## indianroads (Sep 29, 2021)

Taylor said:


> You should know better than to get me started on fashion!  I think this still falls in the realm of the OP.
> 
> Funny you should mention the spike heels. I have a scene in my book about this very thing!  And yes, I also wore them, but for me only for special occasions.  But I remember even in the corporate world, female executives wearing them, and with bare legs no less.  And they would teeter along beside the men wearing pants, flat shoes, and socks.   I could never figure out how a woman in power would want to disadvantage herself to men, by being so uncomfortable.  But perhaps the mystery of the stiletto heel can be uncovered in this thread.  You tell me...are these 7" heel-wearing women hindering their performance?  I definitely felt a glass ceiling at points in my career...perhaps the stilettos would have helped.


According to my wife, women dress to be noticed by other WOMEN, not men. We're easy - if you show up, we're happy.


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## Taylor (Sep 29, 2021)

indianroads said:


> According to my wife, women dress to be noticed by other WOMEN, not men. We're easy - if you show up, we're happy.


I know people say that...but is it really all there _is_ to it?  I mean, would your evening have gone the same if she showed up in pleated trousers and brogues?


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## indianroads (Sep 29, 2021)

Taylor said:


> I know people say that...but is it really all there _is_ to it? I mean, would your evening have gone the same if she showed up in pleated trousers and brogues?


Yes it would have - fewer laughs on my part though. Maybe I'm peculiar though - I think women that are comfortable in their own skin are attractive.
ETA:
Women don't need fancy clothes for that - in fact, in my view an over indulgence in the outer appearance equates to a lack of inner depth and confidence.


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## Foxee (Sep 29, 2021)

indianroads said:


> Ok - now lets talk about those pumps you wear - you know the ones... 7" spike heel and your toes mashed to the front. What's up with that?


Ooh don't tell me you don't know this one! ZZ Top knew it and I KNOW you're clued in on that level.  And, like many things, the promise of high heels doesn't always deliver.

The PROMISE of high heels is that I'll feel ten feet tall, bulletproof, sexy, and powerful. On the somewhat ironic other hand, a big strong nice-looking guy will want to offer me his arm. _(Hint: this may have been where you went a little awry in your story...)_

The REALITY is more like sore arches, pinched toes, cramped calves and a situation like you described with your wife.

I wore heels when I was younger and eventually decided that high heels were too challenging. I started looking for comfort and style instead of WOW. Only my husband cared about WOW and he can look at my legs whenever he wants (almost). Then again since I dress pretty casually most of the time so if I put on a top that's nicer than your standard T-shirt and put on earrings with it he thinks I've dressed up...even if the bottom half is jeans and tennis shoes. How times have changed!


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## indianroads (Sep 29, 2021)

Lets face it, both men and women do some pretty silly thing to attract the attention of the other.

ETA: In men's business attire I equate the tie to a leash. This one's tamed. I was an Engineer though, we don't wear ties, so keep that in mind.


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## Mr.Mingo (Sep 29, 2021)

indianroads said:


> In men's business attire I equate the tie to a leash. This one's tamed. I was an Engineer though, we don't wear ties, so keep that in mind.



I think business attire definitely corresponds directly with the said business of the person, man or woman. Attire of work environments, especially of the salarized upper echelon (the managerial crowd and those in sales), designates a more specific set of restricted clothing expectations, i.e. the suit and tie. I'm, however, from the ground pounders who work in technician and engineer fields. We wear most whatever we damn well please, with or without customers present. Women and men in my sort of work where clothes and have attitudes that are functional for the environment we're in, usually tight fitting but flexible and with no loose edges. Me in my rolled up sleeves with a tattoo slightly showing that works as a nice little attention grabber that people in the science fields tend to want to ask about.

Those sales guys that sometimes drag me along though...all suit and tie, or knee-length dresses and three-inch heels. Industry standard, hot off the press. Company issued smiles and handshakes all-around.


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## indianroads (Sep 29, 2021)

Long ago, when I was working at Cisco Systems in San Jose (Silicon Valley), I was in a meeting with John Chambers (Cisco CEO at the time). A lot of us engineering types were there, and one asked an off topic question: (paraphrasing) "When Cisco was a new company we hardly ever saw anyone wearing a suit, these days though, there are more and more of them; what's up with that? Is the Cisco culture changing?"

Chambers is a master at saying the right thing at the right time. His reply was: (again paraphrasing) "People in every industry and field dress for credibility. A person in marketing or sales wears a suit for credibility. If an engineer wears a suit though, he has NO credibility."

OK - Mod hat on.

We're getting some thread drift here - and admittedly I started it. Let's try to get this back on topic. How do we write women (or men for that matter) such that they seem genuine?

For me, I watch people and listen to how they talk, then mimic that when I write women. In Redemption, my FMC looks through her car window at the unwashed masses marching home from work, and at one point supposes that they are probably 'stinky'.

Typically, 'stinky' is a word women use somewhat often but men use rarely. That's the sort of thing I do.


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## cozwry (Sep 30, 2021)

A lot of my earlier renditions, had a sort of Zoe Saldana feel. Even earlier, a Michelle Rodriguez feel. Even earlier than that, I liked Mariel of Redwall, so I imagined a mousy. I remember always how my mother reacted to the escaped mice, I opened the pantry door, and there were mottled and piebald mousy everywhere.


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## Llyralen (Sep 30, 2021)

JBF said:


> I might be.  Jury's still out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can’t disagree with any of this. It’s true about group-think and group interaction.

 I still maintain both sexes live in the realm of what can be understood by each other if people care to try. The not believing and instead the belief in “other” and “alien” and not feeling a need to try is a problem.  It’s a problem that is still very ingrained.

 I remember my dad saying to my brother something close to what Hawkeye said in Last of the Mohicans “Do not try to understand the white man.  They are a breed apart and make no sense.”’  I remember my dad saying to my brother “Don’t try to understand girls, just humor.”  Which is ridiculous and in general gives men the idea that they don’t really have to self-evaluate their actions and consequences to others while maintaining the idea that they are the only ones possessing good sense… ugg I think many men were raised with something similar from my generation.  It’s crappy and on some levels not my brother’s fault until he decided to open his eyes just a few years ago.  My dad who taught this poor advice never followed his own advice and understood me to the core if no one else did, defended and advocated for my reasoning and ideas and was usually self aware and fair. He also expected me to possess good sense and fairness. Why? How?  He cared enough to understand me. He saw me. But he couldn’t give that to my brother at the time.

I think because it’s a world of men women have had to try to understand men to navigate life and also stay safe, but I think things can change at some point so that men start to know they can understand us if they try and will likely need to if women can break through more glass ceilings.


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## Llyralen (Sep 30, 2021)

indianroads said:


> Yes it would have - fewer laughs on my part though. Maybe I'm peculiar though - I think women that are comfortable in their own skin are attractive.
> ETA:
> Women don't need fancy clothes for that - in fact, in my view an over indulgence in the outer appearance equates to a lack of inner depth and confidence.


Why do men wear ties to nice functions?  Everyone has to follow some conventions— usually it’s expected that we follow even stupid ones.

A lot of us women blame high heels on the male sex, by the way.

What really annoys me is no pockets… supposedly that has to do with 50 plus years ago giving the illusion that we women don’t need to have our own money, our men have pockets, why would women need them? … but I really wish people making our clothes would get with the times on that.  So many of my pants don’t have pockets and it’s annoying and inconvenient.

I think some men would also not ride in the rain and some women might. That’s about something you love individually, don’t you think?

I don’t know… I know it’s supposed to be humorous but usually when comedians say “The difference between men qnd women is…” they are usually only talking about their own relationship, it seems like to me. 

I think this has to do also with how fast gender issues are changing with the younger generation too.  I mentioned once on a forum  that I didn’t ask guys out when I was dating and my husband chased me and proposed and I liked it that way.  (I’m 45) and the 20 year olds I was talking to thought that was so really gender unequal.   I said “Are there any clear expectations?  Because expectations make dating a bit easier and less embarrassing, I’d say?”  The answer was “Nope!”   Interesting!


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## indianroads (Sep 30, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> Why do men wear ties to nice functions?  Everyone has to follow some conventions— usually it’s expected that we follow even stupid ones.
> 
> A lot of us women blame high heels on the male sex, by the way.
> 
> ...


My wife told me to propose, so I did.


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## Mr.Mingo (Sep 30, 2021)

indianroads said:


> My wife told me to propose, so I did.



Yep, me too. Directly before a eight month overseas deployment. I thought it was nuts. She didn't. Look who's been married the last five odd years because of that disagreement...

Best decision she ever made for me.


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## indianroads (Sep 30, 2021)

Mr.Mingo said:


> Yep, me too. Directly before a eight month overseas deployment. I thought it was nuts. She didn't. Look who's been married the last five odd years because of that disagreement...
> 
> Best decision she ever made for me.


Same here. 42 years married.


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## JBF (Sep 30, 2021)

I was cogitating on this the other day, and I realized something I've had in mind a while now that never really got codified.  

Sticking by the idea that 

a) authors should work with _characters _first and 
b) that there _are _some notable differences in writing the sexes, 

I still think we're over-weighting some characteristics on the sheet.  For instance, I've got an (uwritten, shocking I know) story where two of my major characters get into a slugging match.  It happens over a girl, though not like you'd think,  and my chief protag gets the worst of it.  After it ends, protag's friend/opponent tells him he doesn't know how, but _son of a bitch_ can Chief Protag take a punch.  A lot of them, in fact.  So many that it's almost a draw because said friend wears out and doesn't have the energy to keep throwing.  

Put that in perspective: Chief Protag won a fight not because he was or faster or better or had the stronger right hook, but because he could _endure_.  Even if he couldn't go hit-for-hit, he wouldn't stay down.

This is admittedly not the traditional western picture of a hero.  He was a shrimpy kid.  He realizes later than he should that he's lacking in too many regards to name.  He's nobody's prize; he knows it, and the sense of being second-rate and expendable colors everything he does.  But he endures.  Among the few positives on his character sheet, _he has no quit_.  

So.  Long way around a short point.  

I don't write this as _The Story of a Man_.  It goes down as _The Story of a Man Who_...

Female characters, I think, are probably not much different.  Not a Woman.  A Woman Who.  

Character first.  Character last.  Character always.


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## indianroads (Sep 30, 2021)

Cross posting my comment from the 'Authors with skills you'd like to develop'. We were discussing Ursula Le Guin:


> I'm not really into fantasy, but I did read several of her Earthsea books - my favorite novel by her remains the Lathe of Heaven. Heck... the movies are even good.


That novel is a good example of a female author writing poor male characters IMO.
The male protagonist is weak and kinda feminine, and the male antagonist is overly assertive, ambitious, and gruff.


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## Ralph Rotten (Sep 30, 2021)

I would love to weigh in on this topic, but over the years I have had  rviews saying that I didn't know how to write a woman...as well as reviews where their favorite character was one of the women in the story. I have often dreamt of writing a book under an feminine alias just to see if I get any reviews saying that I don;t write women well.

My suggestion for men is to rub one out before you write women. Then mebbe you won't focus so much on sexual aspects.


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## Llyralen (Sep 30, 2021)

JBF said:


> I was cogitating on this the other day, and I realized something I've had in mind a while now that never really got codified.
> 
> Sticking by the idea that
> 
> ...


This exactly!  Humans are humans who.  Love it!

That sounds like an interesting protagonist, by the way. 

There was this interesting moment for Dustin Hoffman that he said changed him.   He said, looking at himself in the red Tootsie dress “Can’t you make me more attractive?”  They said “This is as good as it gets.”  He said, “You see… I wouldn’t have been interested in getting to know a woman like me. I wouldn’t have thought that woman interesting. But I think if I was a woman I would be an interesting woman.”  He choaked up there and I was grateful to see that. His realization— it is meaningful and needed but kind of the starting line of realization too and it’s crazy that it took this situation for him to know he didn’t see women as people who.

What you wrote is a great way to present the main concept that the sex of the person is just a part of who they are.


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## Llyralen (Sep 30, 2021)

My first post in this thread discussed the fantasy-fulfillment character.  Basically if building the woman is like trying to think of your dream ice cream Sunday… well that’s not a human.  A human would have their own motivations and a lot of those motivations would have nothing to do with being sexual.

My crazy little critique group that I had for a few years had 3 men who all write fantasy-fulfillment women and then my husband who writes realistic motivated women and one of their wives who has a history of abuse and doesn’t expect more from men and then me.

 I’ve heard too much and I realized too recently that men who write like this probably can’t really give me any kind of decent feedback about my characters or books. They aren’t interested in female characters enough.

Now my husband can’t always see the plot holes that happen around these cardboard female characters, but I wrote this down for another forum.  My husband knew enough to know the boobs description was annoying but it wasn’t until I told him to imagine the MC was gay and the woman his gay lover before my husband looked at me and said “Oh that was basically impossible. That plot went nowhere. Nobody acts like that.”. Correct.

Coming up…. An example of plot holes due to cardboard ice cream Sunday fantasy-woman writing…


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## Llyralen (Sep 30, 2021)

This guy in my group had a scene where his MC’s wife is introduced. She appeared in the nick of time in order to save the character’s life at the last second.  MC then describes waking up to the crooning sound of his wife seductively calling his name saying “It’s morning.  It’s time to get up, Love.” Until suddenly the soft sound becomes rage. “Get up! Now!!!”  MC awakens and describes her boobs and face for a page, says nothing to her, abruptly leaves to go get coffee and kill robots. The writer said the wife had not seen the MC in 300 years. 

I said “Wasn't he almost killed?”
“Well, yeah.”
“And she didn’t know where he was for all that time?”
“Right”
“How did she find him suddenly? Had she been worried and looking for him? She pulled him through the vortex?”
Him: “Yeah, she was worried about him.” 
Me: “And then I guess he fell asleep? Why is she softly calling his name to wake him up and then yelling after him nearly dying?”
Him: “Yeah. He fell asleep. I just like that scene of being woken up like that.”
Me: “Is he hurt at all? 
Him: He is fine now. 
Me: “Now he is going out for coffee? She’s okay with that?”
Him: “She’s okay with that. He wasn’t hurt. He is going to go start his day.”

This was rough with his real wife sitting next to him, especially during the long boob description.

I guess if women aren’t real thinking and feeling humans then maybe this scene doesn’t have huge plot holes. I think him writing this ice cream Sunday for himself acts kind of like the pretty girl in a magic show.  While the boobs are there, he is too interested and is completely distracted from the crazy plot and unreal character.


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## Llyralen (Sep 30, 2021)

Another one I saw by a cousin who is 65+ about a 40 year-ish guy tutoring a 20 year old with a baby.  Everything she does she does sexually. “Twirls her hair seductively”, “walks towards him, hips swaying”. He offers to change her baby and she thinks “I get to relax?”  And for a second there it’s like she is in some kind of ecstasy.  
Personally, I would be freaking out— who wouldn’t?  No way can you change my baby, creep.

Then the baby steals something from the tutor, somehow gets in his car and starts talking like the gangster baby from Roger Rabbit.  At this point there IS no woman.  She disappeared.

I admit these are MS dumpster fires that no one here would hopefully start, but…. She wasn’t even in the car. She no longer existed. There was no woman anymore after she fulfilled the wish fulfillment of flirting with a 40 year old.  It’s just so…  bad.  It’s so bad, guys.


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## BornForBurning (Sep 30, 2021)

> I’m not an alien.


I disagree. First of all, you are an alien because you are human, and because you are a thing that exists. There is a measure of alienation innate to the experiencing of all objects that are distinct from oneself. The added trait of female-ness is a secondary degree of alienation, one that renders you meaningfully and uniquely distinct from all masculine objects in the universe. If you were not alien, you would be subsumed into some other object. To be distinct is to be unknown; not be conflated with _not _known. What I am trying to get at is that there is an element of mystery to encountering any object that is distinct from oneself, and that mystery is inalienable. It isn't something that can ever, _ever _go away. I know my sister very well. I can often predict her thoughts. I can never actually experience her own stream-of-consciousness the way she does; and she cannot experience mine. Distinct. Alien. Unknowable.


> This was rough with his real wife sitting next to him, especially during the long boob description.


That sucks. I'm really sorry you and that other woman had to go through that.  Something my Dad told me to ask myself whenever I'm imagining / describing a woman...is this something you'd feel comfortable saying about your mother or sisters? Obviously, that's not a hard-and-fast rule. But it is a good general guideline.


> Female characters, I think, are probably not much different. Not a Woman. A Woman Who.
> 
> Character first. Character last. Character always.


Dislike this idea immensely. I think it is often propagated as an attempt to short-cut some ontology of characterization—but, to your thesis, the idea that characters are defined by what they do to the extent that you've implied is absurd. Doing is an outgrowth of the _are_—of being. We do because we are; and what are we? That's the question. So, you can't just strafe around the "what would X do?" question by essentially saying "X does what X does." That's tautological; and it isn't answering the original question. The question is, how does being relate to action; ergo, how does _being a_ _woman _affect said woman's actions? You are arguing it has no impact; that the primary consideration should always be on the action and not on the person performing the action. "Female characters I think, are probably not much different (from men)." Ridiculous; you might as well argue that there is no such thing as a woman at all. If there is no difference, why write male characters? Why write female characters? Why not simply write genderless manikin-dolls? Because of our own whim and fancy? The only reason you fancy a woman over a man for a specific narrative is because these are _completely distinct aesthetic constructs_. Turning your protagonist female colors the entire work in a different light. It isn't arbitrary. It isn't just that there are "some differences in writing the sexes" (I know most people on this board agree with that sentiment). It is that to write one sex over the other results in a complete and cataclysmic transformation of the work.

Yes, character first. And let us not pretend that a female character shooting a gun and a male character shooting a gun are the same thing because they both happen to be performing the action called _shooting_. The shooting and the sex are aesthetic monoliths; distinct, and both informing our perception of the piece.


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## VRanger (Sep 30, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> My first post in this thread discussed the fantasy-fulfillment character.  Basically if building the woman is like trying to think of your dream ice cream Sunday… well that’s not a human.  A human would have their own motivations and a lot of those motivations would have nothing to do with being sexual.


I neatly side-stepped that in my last full-length novel. The two MAIN female characters are the Goddess Athena, and a demon/Fallen Angel named Agares. So ... neither are human. ;-)


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## JBF (Oct 1, 2021)

BornForBurning said:


> Dislike this idea immensely. I think it is often propagated as an attempt to short-cut some ontology of characterization—but, to your thesis, the idea that characters are defined by what they do to the extent that you've implied is absurd. Doing is an outgrowth of the _are_—of being.



If you know who your characters are, you know what they do and why.  That's my point. 

That's the difference in a character who does something heroic because the plot demands it versus one who does something heroic by acting in accordance with their established nature.  As it happens, the external actions of the character give form to the internal aspects. 



BornForBurning said:


> We do because we are; and what are we? That's the question. So, you can't just strafe around the "what would X do?" question by essentially saying "X does what X does." That's tautological; and it isn't answering the original question. The question is, how does being relate to action; ergo, how does _being a_ _woman _affect said woman's actions?



I'm not entirely sure where you're coming from here, or where you're getting the idea that I've _ever _argued that a writer should short their character-building in favor of action.  Your issue and rebuttal to my point _is _essentially my point.



BornForBurning said:


> You are arguing it has no impact; that the primary consideration should always be on the action and not on the person performing the action. "Female characters I think, are probably not much different (from men)."



If you put my statement in context, it's qualified by the example: an individual will act in line with their experiences, wants, biases, and everything else that comprises _who _they are.  The addition of _(from men) _implies that I claim there is no difference when, three paragraphs earlier I stated:



> _Sticking by the idea that
> 
> a) authors should work with characters first and
> b) *that there are some notable differences in writing the sexes*,_



You can call me wrong all you want, but if I'm going to get hit for something I'd as soon it be for something I actually _did_. 



BornForBurning said:


> Ridiculous; you might as well argue that there is no such thing as a woman at all. If there is no difference, why write male characters? Why write female characters? Why not simply write genderless manikin-dolls? Because of our own whim and fancy?



You're extrapolating an argument with somebody (not me) which is unfounded by anything I've stated thus far.  To wit:

_A character's sex is an accent, not a straightjacket.  _

Ignore it at your peril.  Focus overmuch on it to your chagrin.  _What would a man/woman do in X situation _is a question that cannot be answered with 100% accuracy unless we assume either sex to be a monolithic block. 



BornForBurning said:


> The only reason you fancy a woman over a man for a specific narrative is because these are _completely distinct aesthetic constructs_. Turning your protagonist female colors the entire work in a different light. It isn't arbitrary. It isn't just that there are "some differences in writing the sexes" (I know most people on this board agree with that sentiment). It is that to write one sex over the other results in a complete and cataclysmic transformation of the work.



I stated this in another thread (Post 21, here: *The other gender/sex voice*)

From that you can extract my stance:  _*Now...I have a hard time imagining this story unfolding the same way if John was Jane.*_



BornForBurning said:


> Yes, character first. And let us not pretend that a female character shooting a gun and a male character shooting a gun are the same thing because they both happen to be performing the action called _shooting_. The shooting and the sex are aesthetic monoliths; distinct, and both informing our perception of the piece.



I admit, I'm having a tough time following this line of thought. 

Jokes aside, does a car function differently dependent on whether the driver is a man or a woman?  Do the gas pedals switch polarity based on the Y chromosome?  If a woman shoots a revolver, does the cylinder turn backwards? 

From a mechanical standpoint, the gun or the car or the washing machine doesn't care who uses it.  It's a machine.  A tool.  It has no will and no preference, and if kept in good working order it does what it was built to do, every time and any time until circumstances or condition dictate otherwise. 

But if we're going to bring sex into the shooting analogy, let's have an example.  Here, a man and a woman go to the skeet range pass a few hours breaking clay pigeons.  From my experience three major possibilities emerge.

- He dragged her out here because he likes guns and wants her to like guns, too.  They get irritated with each other because she spends most of the time on her phone and just will not squeeze herself into the dream-girl mold he's built for her.  She doesn't like recoil, doesn't like the smell or the noise, and grits her teeth to wait him out until they can go do something _interesting_.  This is probably closest to the sitcom cliche from both sides (_she's too girly, he's out of touch_). 

- She agrees to go out, but doesn't tell him that she spent a significant number of childhood weekends breaking clays with family.  He likes to shoot, but he's not very good, and she wipes the floor with him.  This is the modern girlpower version of the cliche (_anything you can do I can do better_).

- Both parties are interested and nominally at the same skill level.  They maintain a friendly rivalry and it's anybody's guess who wins, and in the end nobody really cares because they got to do something they enjoyed together.  They secretly buy each other new shotguns for Christmas. 

Are there differences in the sexes?  You bet.  And you should be aware of those when you write.  But when you write that girl throwing the shotgun to shoulder, she ought to be thinking about lead and and smooth, even movements moreso than the fact she's a girl. 

There's a time and a place for the sex of a character to bear on the story.  The trick is finding out when and where.


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## VRanger (Oct 1, 2021)

I think I had a comment in the thread earlier, but I've mostly stayed out of it, because the entire subject is an endless cycle of observation casting a leery eye at preconception. Observation tells us that myriad characterizations of either sex are available. You pick what your story needs and use it. If a reader complains that a specific characterization is invalid, that's the ignorance of the reader, not a mistake of the author.


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## Dluuni (Oct 1, 2021)

vranger said:


> I think I had a comment in the thread earlier, but I've mostly stayed out of it, because the entire subject is an endless cycle of observation casting a leery eye at preconception. Observation tells us that myriad characterizations of either sex are available. You pick what your story needs and use it. If a reader complains that a specific characterization is invalid, that's the ignorance of the reader, not a mistake of the author.


Right; I consider it a question of "selling the reader on the gender of the character". That's a relatively easy craft matter of responding to stereotypes even if to reject them and paying attention to a change in the perceived world here and there. People are different, you don't have to perfect everything all the way down, just sell a pronoun set. I know how to manage that.


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## Llyralen (Oct 6, 2021)

BornForBurning said:


> I disagree. First of all, you are an alien because you are human, and because you are a thing that exists. There is a measure of alienation innate to the experiencing of all objects that are distinct from oneself. The added trait of female-ness is a secondary degree of alienation, one that renders you meaningfully and uniquely distinct from all masculine objects in the universe. If you were not alien, you would be subsumed into some other object. To be distinct is to be unknown; not be conflated with _not _known. What I am trying to get at is that there is an element of mystery to encountering any object that is distinct from oneself, and that mystery is inalienable. It isn't something that can ever, _ever _go away. I know my sister very well. I can often predict her thoughts. I can never actually experience her own stream-of-consciousness the way she does; and she cannot experience mine. Distinct. Alien. Unknowable.
> 
> That sucks. I'm really sorry you and that other woman had to go through that.  Something my Dad told me to ask myself whenever I'm imagining / describing a woman...is this something you'd feel comfortable saying about your mother or sisters? Obviously, that's not a hard-and-fast rule. But it is a good general guideline.


You can have fun imagining I might be an alien and if we all are individually aliens then this argument has some merit but what I won’t allow is to have my humanity taken from me.

You know.. it’s not really the boob description that is hurtful.  I’ve got boobs and this guy’s real wife has boobs.  Do I want to hear this guy’s fantasy?  No.  Annoying?  As hell. But what is hurtful to me is that he tried to place a woman character into a story for his own gratification and when I pointed out that no human person could possibly act like that woman he couldn’t even see it.

If anyone here can’t see what I’m talking about then go back and read what I wrote but pretend the partner who saved the MC’s life after looking for him for 300 years is male. There was no thank you.  There was no reunion scene. There were no words from or to the lover/partner except the MC’s name and “WAKE UP!”
I asked if the wife was a robot, the answer was that she was supposed to be a woman.

True story, folks.  

Anyway, advice from this for the OP… just… when in doubt if you’re writing for your own gratification…pretend the person is male for a second to do the human check thing.  And if check, proceed.  I know many men who understand women are humans, so keep at it.


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## KeganThompson (Oct 6, 2021)

I'm not surprised this thread 'went off the walls' a little...lol
But to answer the question in the most simplest terms...write 'a person first.' WOW helpful I know...looks like that is what others advice is too. (for the most part)

The perspective of the women depends on the personality of the character, their interests and what they want to accomplish in the story. The genre plays a factor too. For instance, reading a book about a teenage girl in high school who has a crush on so and so is going to be totally different than reading about a 30 year old office worker who tries to uncover a mystery.

I'd worry about the basics of the character and story first before thinking too much about the nuances between male and female perspective. As long as your not 'filling some fantasy' (and since you are asking this question I will assume not) or reaching for a stereotype...you should be fine. I think its one of those things we tend to over think...
I haven't heard anything critique wise when I write in the opposite sex's voice (i hear plenty of other criticisms tho heh heh) _so far_ so good.. 
that means I must have solid advice right? and know what I'm talking about for once? Maybe?


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## morganjones (Oct 6, 2021)

LoveofWriting said:


> How do I do that? I am writing a story that has a woman in it and I need answers to how I can write like one? I am a male writer who has a main character as woman. Does anyone have any novels where a woman is the main character? Or self-help books to help me with this challenge?


Well, considering that the *one* woman you invented isn't a prototype of every other woman on the planet, like you personally probably isn't the same as every male on the planet, you could start by giving her a unique personality. You know, like you would a man? And then forget about all that silliness with genders. If you have a person who is described as a 'she' work from there. She'll be more believable to readers the less you painstakingly try to make her different from a man. There are many stereotypes out there, but very few women actually run around hugging people, wearing pink while throwing glitter and stuffed unicorns in the air, squealing about their feelings. Or whatever you believe is distinctly female and not male.

Self-help books to think like a woman? You made my head hurt.

If you look for inspiration from Twilight and Divergent to give you the magic  key to a woman's psyche, then I think you need to know that the protagonists in both series aren't women, but teen girls. I doubt grown women will feel very represented by the meanderings of Bella Swan.


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## LoveofWriting (Oct 6, 2021)

morganjones said:


> Well, considering that the *one* woman you invented isn't a prototype of every other woman on the planet, like you personally probably isn't the same as every male on the planet, you could start by giving her a unique personality. You know, like you would a man? And then forget about all that silliness with genders. If you have a person who is described as a 'she' work from there. She'll be more believable to readers the less you painstakingly try to make her different from a man. There are many stereotypes out there, but very few women actually run around hugging people, wearing pink while throwing glitter and stuffed unicorns in the air, squealing about their feelings. Or whatever you believe is distinctly female and not male.
> 
> Self-help books to think like a woman? You made my head hurt.
> 
> If you look for inspiration from Twilight and Divergent to give you the magic  key to a woman's psyche, then I think you need to know that the protagonists in both series aren't women, but teen girls. I doubt grown women will feel very represented by the meanderings of Bella Swan.



Hey self-help books are good, what's wrong with that? And I always thought that the Twilight and Divergent series they grow up to be women are at least act like one. I never read the Divergent books but I have read the first Twilight and seen the movies but still...


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## KeganThompson (Oct 6, 2021)

LoveofWriting said:


> Hey self-help books are good, what's wrong with that? And I always thought that the Twilight and Divergent series they grow up to be women are at least act like one. I never read the Divergent books but I have read the first Twilight and seen the movies but still...


How was the twilight books (well first book) compared to the movies? I find the movies...comical and I don't hear great things about the books but I've never read them so I'm not going to make that judgment. I mean, it was good enough to get published and get a huge fan base so it cant be that bad...right? I just know its gotta be better than the movies


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## Llyralen (Oct 6, 2021)

I was thinking about what I said about humanity/being human. I think maybe a better way to explain it is that the majority of women are written as dispensable. My two examples really show that.

 Geena Davis has an institute that collected numbers on how women are written as dispensable or not shown at all in the film industry and that it is as bad as it ever was.

No wonder questions like this still come up and it’s questions like this that can help ( so thank you OP ) and discussions like this (as painful as I find them to be) that can help.


A suggestion/test (that hardly any films pass) is to see if you have two women talking together at any time and talking about something that is not about a man. That might be a good test for writing women in books too.

I recently re-read Charlotte Bronte’s _Shirley. _I was so happy to read a good intelligent conversation between two women.  I was very inspired and touched by it, (I actually cried, I’m just going to tell the truth) and it was just because I got to experience the topic of women’s friendships as adults in a book. Friendship between women is a huge topic for us but rarely gets written intelligently into non-YA fiction.  _Thelma and Louise, _and _Bridesmaids (films) _were revelations as well for the same reason.  That’s how starved I am— and I think other women are as well— for us to see ourselves represented in books and films. Princess Diana was also loved for showing motherhood to other mothers. Women said they got to see themselves reflected in her, represented on tv. It’s true for books too, though.  Mrs. Frisbee and the Rats of NYMN is one of the best examples of motherhood I can think of in books and I crave seeing her and her care for her children that I identify with represented. I can’t think of too many mother protagonists that I feel represent me other than Mrs. Frisbee and it would matter to me to see it and read it.

 I fully support anyone trying to write more women. I fully support anyone who just sees us as fellow humans in interesting circumstances like most humans to write about and I need to remember for myself too to write what I crave. I should write mother protagonists and women’s friendships.  Why is it so hard to write about for all of us?   Not enough precedent and only talks like this and attempts by men and women will change it.


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## LCLee (Oct 6, 2021)

My book has a female MC, and it is in first person. So I didn't have the convince of using a narrator who would be excused for not seeing her true feelings. They are all hers. This required more than a few changes. From the wife..."Thats too harsh a woman wouldn't say that...From the beta readers ..."Even dressed like a man, she still wouldn't do that... From the final edit ...The conversation is like two men are talking....Ouch.... In the end I rewrote tons of paragraphs until all were happy. That included the wife, four beta readers and two final edits, all female. So can men write a woman's part? Yes, with a lot of help.


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## LoveofWriting (Oct 6, 2021)

KeganThompson said:


> How was the twilight books (well first book) compared to the movies? I find the movies...comical and I don't hear great things about the books but I've never read them so I'm not going to make that judgment. I mean, it was good enough to get published and get a huge fan base so it cant be that bad...right? I just know its gotta be better than the movies



Well I read the first Twilight book a long time ago (in 2008) and from what I remember it started to build up towards the end, it was interesting but I know the book was better than the movie. People kept saying it was a failure when the film was released.


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## LoveofWriting (Oct 6, 2021)

LCLee said:


> My book has a female MC, and it is in first person. So I didn't have the convince of using a narrator who would be excused for not seeing her true feelings. They are all hers. This required more than a few changes. From the wife..."Thats too harsh a woman wouldn't say that...From the beta readers ..."Even dressed like a man, she still wouldn't do that... From the final edit ...The conversation is like two men are talking....Ouch.... In the end I rewrote tons of paragraphs until all were happy. That included the wife, four beta readers and two final edits, all female. So can men write a woman's part? Yes, with a lot of help.



I think my critique group can help me with doing the POV stuff now cause we have a lot of women in our group.


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## KeganThompson (Oct 6, 2021)

LoveofWriting said:


> Well I read the first Twilight book a long time ago (in 2008) and from what I remember it started to build up towards the end, it was interesting but I know the book was better than the movie. People kept saying it was a failure when the movie was released.


I liked the movie when it was released...of course, I was 12. Now I think it's funny, a lot of people do and that wasn't their intention lol
maybe one day I will give the book a go, at least the first one


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## Llyralen (Oct 7, 2021)

If I made a short list maybe of women writers with clear women’s voice for men who wanted to write women.  Well, I like classic lit: Pearl S.Buck. Amy Tan. Willa Cather, the Bronte sisters (particularly Anne), Jane Austen. Karen Blixen, Virginia Woolf.  All addressed situations that arise from being a woman and have clear voice. 

With poets: Edna St. Vincent Milay, Sylvia Plath, Maya Angelo would be my picks.

For YA you’ve got so many good choices.  Elizabeth George Speare (try The Witch of Blackbird Pond), Madeline L’Engle, Carol Ryrie Brink, Astrid Lindgren, Lucy Maud Montgomery, Beverly Cleary.  They don’t necessarily address issues that are just for girls, but their girl’s voice and thoughts are relatable and very clearly girl, imo.


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## Taylor (Oct 7, 2021)

JBF said:


> If you know who your characters are, you know what they do and why.  That's my point.
> 
> But if we're going to bring sex into the shooting analogy, let's have an example.  Here, a man and a woman go to the skeet range pass a few hours breaking clay pigeons.  From my experience three major possibilities emerge.
> 
> ...


A wonderful example for illustration of the topic.  However, all of your scenarios read maleish to me. She is either "girly" which is portrayed as unattractive or she is as good or better than him.   Another scenario, from a female POV is that she not as good as him, but he is still attracted to her.

- It's her turn to arrange the surprise date.  He's a marksman, so she books a time at the local skeet range pass.  Heading out to shoot she realizes that her shoes are not appropriate because the heals dig into the ground, so he piggybacks her to the site.  He shoots first and breaks three in a row. Then, he explains to her how to shoot.  Struggling, she can't hit one.  She feels the warmth of his body as he moves behind her placing his arms over hers, guiding her aim. "Blam," success!

Can you see a difference?


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## morganjones (Oct 7, 2021)

LoveofWriting said:


> Hey self-help books are good, what's wrong with that? And I always thought that the Twilight and Divergent series they grow up to be women are at least act like one. I never read the Divergent books but I have read the first Twilight and seen the movies but still...


'What's wrong with self-help books?' Nothing if you write them. They will make you rich.
The problem is they can't help you in any way and buying them will just make you poor. Better go scatter your money in the street.
This way, at least the one who finds it will be happy.

A self-help book cannot magically teach you to see the world from the perspective of a woman because there is no such thing as a female perspective.
There is just an individual perspective. And some of those individuals happen to be female.

Is this 1921 or 2021? Just checking because I can't believe someone in this day and age actually thinks it takes a special kind of brain to think like a female.

You read the first Twilight? All the way through? Okay...no, Bella does not grow up to be a woman. She grows into a pouting dysfunctional always-teenage-vampire (spoiler!) with no character development at all, except if you count accepting stalking and death threats from your ancient male lover as development as well as being totally fine with your adult ex-boyfriend sexually imprinting on your newborn daughter. So I wouldn't count Bella Swan or the woman who created her as a fountain of knowledge in the mystery that is the female soul. No gender should be held responsible for Stephanie Meyer's pseudo-sexual religious fantasies.

Wait, you saw the Twilight films? All of them? I could only make it ten minutes into the first one and then my eyes started sliding away from the screen.


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## Olly Buckle (Oct 7, 2021)

The latest video I put up on my YouTube channel There was an earlier one called 'Golden hour' as well.


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## KeganThompson (Oct 7, 2021)

morganjones said:


> 'What's wrong with self-help books?' Nothing if you write them. They will make you rich.
> The problem is they can't help you in any way and buying them will just make you poor. Better go scatter your money in the street.
> This way, at least the one who finds it will be happy.
> 
> ...


No offense but you come off rather condescending in this response. The OP was asking a genuine question because he wants to write a good female character. What is wrong with that? Sure, he may be overthinking it but he wants to know because he cares. He could've just written some sexual fantasy or shitty stereotype that people get pissed over but no, he is asking and is interested. idk whats offensive or upsetting about that...


morganjones said:


> Is this 1921 or 2021? Just checking because I can't believe someone in this day and age actually thinks it takes a special kind of brain to think like a female.


Well, there are differences between the male and female brain...maybe not a lot but there are and it does change things. People are individuals with individual experiences and being male/female shouldn't box you into a stereotype but they are differences and that's _not a bad thing._ There is a female/male perspective but I think its more nuanced than the stereotypes we see portrayed in the media.


morganjones said:


> You read the first Twilight? All the way through? Okay...no, Bella does not grow up to be a woman. She grows into a pouting dysfunctional always-teenage-vampire (spoiler!) with no character development at all, except if you count accepting stalking and death threats from your ancient male lover as development as well as being totally fine with your adult ex-boyfriend sexually imprinting on your newborn daughter. So I wouldn't count Bella Swan or the woman who created her as a fountain of knowledge in the mystery that is the female soul. No gender should be held responsible for Stephanie Meyer's pseudo-sexual religious fantasies.
> 
> Wait, you saw the Twilight films? All of them? I could only make it ten minutes into the first one and then my eyes started sliding away from the screen.


I think that's a fair view of the books/ movies. I wouldn't say twilight is the greatest example of a female character...


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## Kent_Jacobs (Oct 7, 2021)

KeganThompson said:


> No offense but you come off rather condescending in this response. The OP was asking a genuine question because he wants to write a good female character. What is wrong with that? Sure, he may be overthinking it but he wants to know because he cares. He could've just written some sexual fantasy or shitty stereotype that people get pissed over but no, he is asking and is interested. idk whats offensive or upsetting about that...


Yes, but the irony is, by asking 'what is a female like', you're going to end up with a shitty stereotype. Morganjones is actually spot on. You write characters. And that's it. No matter what traits you give a man or a woman, you can bet your life they mirror a good few of the 7+ billion females/males that inhabit this earth. If you differentiate between the two, you'll end up focusing on the TINY differences there are and doing that guarantees a stereotype. Apart from physical differences and clothing, you could easily change a male character into a female character and visa versa. We are more alike than different.


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## KeganThompson (Oct 7, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> Yes, but the irony is, by asking 'what is a female like', you're going to end up with a shitty stereotype. Morganjones is actually spot on. You write characters. And that's it. No matter what traits you give a man or a woman, you can bet your life they mirror a good few of the 7+ billion females/males that inhabit this earth. If you differentiate between the two, you'll end up focusing on the TINY differences there are and doing that guarantees a stereotype. Apart from physical differences and clothing, you could easily change a male character into a female character and visa versa. We are more alike than different.


I agree, I don't think the focus should be on the differences because we are more a like than different. That's why my advice to the OP was to write _a person_ and not worry about the nuances and that the perspective of the character. It really depends on genre, personality and interests more so If they are female or not. My point was he was asking because he wants to do a good job. Like I said I think he is overthinking it and the majority of the advice he got was to just write a person. But they're differences and just because they are small doesnt mean they should be dismissed completely. I just thought Morganjones came off strong in her reply when he didn't have Ill intent in his question. I'd say that a lot of self help books are probably trash btw. (And wouldn't recommend using that to understand women lol) and personally I don't think it's as simple as swapping out clothes and appearances I think there is more nuance than that. But I get your point. We are all human and that needs to be the focus of developing a good character and not the gender


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## Kent_Jacobs (Oct 7, 2021)

KeganThompson said:


> I agree, I don't think the focus should be on the differences because we are more a like than different. That's why my advice to the OP was to write _a person_ and not worry about the nuances and that the perspective of the character. It really depends on genre, personality and interests more so If they are female or not. My point was he was asking because he wants to do a good job. Like I said I think he is overthinking it and the majority of the advice he got was to just write a person. But they're differences and just because they are small doesnt mean they should be dismissed completely. I just thought Morganjones came off strong in her reply when he didn't have Ill intent in his question. I'd say that a lot of self help books are probably trash btw. (And wouldn't recommend using that to understand women lol) and personally I don't think it's as simple as swapping out clothes and appearances I think there is more nuance than that. But I get your point. We are all human and that needs to be the focus of developing a good character and not the gender


Na, man, morganjones is just being real. Straightforwardness is what is needed on subjects like this and that's all it was.

edit: And anyone who's a fan of Absolutely Fabulous is good in my book!


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## morganjones (Oct 7, 2021)

KeganThompson said:


> No offense but you come off rather condescending in this response. The OP was asking a genuine question because he wants to write a good female character. What is wrong with that? Sure, he may be overthinking it but he wants to know because he cares. He could've just written some sexual fantasy or shitty stereotype that people get pissed over but no, he is asking and is interested. idk whats offensive or upsetting about that...


Oh no, I'm sure you mean no offense at all when you call me condescending. 

You know what I find condescending? Men who treat women as though they are an exotic alien species in a petting zoo and deny them the privilege of just being human beings. And their sidekicks who then come running to ask women why they are so jolly upset because the men meant well and are just 'asking questions' because they 'care.'

What's offensive or upsetting about being treated as a sub-species? You tell me. Frankly I was being extremely polite in my answer. 
Sarcasm is just part of my 'perspective as a European writer.' No offense to other European writers, of course. I'm sure there are some who can read through
comments filled with monumental stupidity without descending into sarcasm.

I'll just wait until the next writer here comes up with a post called_ Suggestions For Writing In the Perspective of a Mixed Race Perso_n and see if I, a mixed race-person, is also told to believe that asking insensitive and insulting stereotypical questions about race is a well meaning sign that you care.


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## VRanger (Oct 7, 2021)

morganjones said:


> Oh no, I'm sure you mean no offense at all when you call me condescending.


This warning is for all members, as topics like this sometimes escalate.

Posts by two members pushed the veil of polite discussion without piercing it, but this last one pushed right through. We *DO NOT* call other members "monumentally stupid", nor do we set up straw man arguments which pretend another member wrote something or broached a subject they DID NOT.

Understand that this is a warning, not an invitation to discuss the site's policy on polite discussion.

Further violations will result in being banned from the thread. An egregious violation may result in being banned from the site, after discussion among staff. Please note that Flaming is a violation of Site Rules, which each member is responsible for knowing and following, as responsible adults.


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## JBF (Oct 7, 2021)

Taylor said:


> A wonderful example for illustration of the topic.  However, all of your scenarios read maleish to me.



I'd hope so.    



Taylor said:


> She is either "girly" which is portrayed as unattractive or she is as good or better than him.   Another scenario, from a female POV is that she not as good as him, but he is still attracted to her.



There are, admittedly, a lot of ways something like this could go - including my personal favorite, we all go out there and we're all terrible, but it's something to do and a way of spending time outside with friends so it goes down in the book as a win, regardless.  



Taylor said:


> - It's her turn to arrange the surprise date.  He's a marksman, so she books a time at the local skeet range pass.  Heading out to shoot she realizes that her shoes are not appropriate because the heals dig into the ground, so he piggybacks her to the site.  He shoots first and breaks three in a row. Then, he explains to her how to shoot.  Struggling, she can't hit one.  She feels the warmth of his body as he moves behind her placing his arms over hers, guiding her aim. "Blam," success!
> 
> Can you see a difference?



I do, and if I can say this without putting my foot in my mouth, I wouldn't have written it quite that way.  Mostly for technical reasons - ranges set up for clay games tend to have paved walkways from one station to the next, so it's unlikely heels would be an issue (though still...probably not advisable).  And because the shotgun is an implement more pointed than aimed, he probably wouldn't be in close contact without inadvertently spoiling her form and getting in the way.  

You do raise a good point.  

Thing is, there's a fair amount for pitfalls for a male writer working with a female character.  Show her as being in any way, shape, or form as less-accomplished than her male counterparts and you're a misogynist.  Show the inverse and you'll probably get dinged with whatever blather the basement set is falling back on these days.  Too pretty, too good-natured, too easy to get along with and she's the Manic Pixie Dream Girl (tm).  Too hard-edged and she's all of the strong-woman/girl-power cliches.  And even supposing you can thread the needle, somebody somewhere is _still_ likely to try and pin you with one of the above.  

Which is why my trials and (considerable) errors have brought me to the point of _writing characters_ rather than _writing women_.  

I have numerous female characters of different ages, backgrounds, beliefs, and habits.  Are they well-written?  I dunno.  Maybe one of these days I'll finish something and we can all find out.  But until then I check them as they appear.  Are they starting to overmuch resemble other characters?  Is there a logic in the things they do?  Can they defend their actions and choices if so pressed?  Do they act in accordance with their established nature and history?  Can the story function without this specific character in these exact circumstances?

Most important: _Is one interchangeable with another?_

Which, incidentally, is the same process all my male characters get.


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## Matchu (Oct 7, 2021)

But @morganjones - some people are not as bright or as sophisticated as you are - and you might be generous toward them…as a strategy?

I know in my own writing, describing a woman, how often I reach into the cupboard of experiences where each woman of my extensive knowledge is dressed either in bathing costume/the secretarial attire/or in the sporting number. Placed carefully inflated among crafted male detectives, her squeaks and pops become elementary to the case, like a storyline @ 30 000 feet…

…enough craft wisdom, I’m perched in the edge of a bed in darkness.  Night night.


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## Digital Dive Labs (Oct 7, 2021)

So, uh, I finished writing this ten minutes before the above kicked off and decided to reword it with more care taken. @BornForBurning, I mean no disrespect. 



BornForBurning said:


> If you were not alien, you would be subsumed into some other object. To be distinct is to be unknown



I appreciate that the context of your statements is that there's beauty in individuality. You and I are not the same person, and that's worth celebrating. We bring different perspectives to the things we care about, reinforcing areas that the other might not notice, so that what we create together is stronger than if two copies of me had done it.

That being said, I disagree with both of the above statements.

In the former: my existence is not defined by, nor dependent upon, my being unique. It's entirely self-contained. I'm not threatened or harmed by other people being like me, so all things considered I'd rather people look for how I'm the same as them than how I'm different. And as that's how I'd like to be treated, so shall I treat.

In the latter: to be distinct is simply to be distinct. 'Known' and 'unknown' are transient, not static properties. Whether or not any of us can _truly_ understand another human being has nothing to do with sex, and is pointless to debate anyway because all that really matters is that we try.



BornForBurning said:


> If there is no difference, why write male characters? Why write female characters?



Honestly? Nature rolled the dice, and I came out with testicles. I apply that same logic to my characters. I sincerely don't give it any thought beyond that because writing a character's choices based on what society says they are is one-dimensional, and that applies to far more than just sex.


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## madon (Oct 8, 2021)

I haven't read this whole thread as it's fairly lengthy, but I find the best way to get a new perspective on writing women is to read books written by women with a female lead. I began reading Boneshaker recently and I find the female protagonist to be delightfully well written and it's given me, what I feel, is a good bit of insight into the female perspective.


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## KeganThompson (Oct 8, 2021)

morganjones said:


> Oh no, I'm sure you mean no offense at all when you call me condescending.


I wasn't trying to call you condescending, I was saying your response came off that way whether you intended it too or not


morganjones said:


> You know what I find condescending? Men who treat women as though they are an exotic alien species in a petting zoo and deny them the privilege of just being human beings. And their sidekicks who then come running to ask women why they are so jolly upset because the men meant well and are just 'asking questions' because they 'care.'


I am a bit confused by _ "And their sidekicks who then come running *to ask women *why they are so jolly upset because the men meant well and are just 'asking questions' because they 'care.'  _I wasn't asking women why they are upset, I was asking why you, as an individual, are upset.

Do I think he could've framed his question better? Yes, and honestly I see why his questioned annoyed you but, I think he asked because he wants to write a organic character who happens to be female.  I dont want to come to the conclusion that he had ill intent or looks 'down' on women because of how it was framed.

I will explain why I came to his defense. I have written in the male perspective  and have wondered if if my character sounded organic.  What caused me to second guess myself (even more) was when my bf pointed out that a line sounded 'girly.' it was the way i framed / expressed a thought/ emotion. I haven't heard anything since (yet) but it was one line that stood out. There is a lot of nuance and I think it comes from how things are worded. The tiniest little thing can make a difference in the voice of the character. a few sentences within an entire book can set a part that male/female perspective imho.  But as I've said, I dont think his primary focus should be on her gender. He can worry about the nuances later, after getting feedback because it would be specific to his story and how he writes the character. 

I have asked this question (to myself) regarding the male perspective and I wasn't doing it because I thought men are a 'subspecies.'  I realized there was no point in overthinking it, and the best thing I can do is just write a good character first and foremost and worry about the little things later. Thats why personally, I didn't find his question offense or upsetting because I have questioned it myself in one form or another. I want my characters be as organic as possible and i'm hoping that was his intent when originally asking the question

I hope that clears some things up, I  admit could've responded to you in a better way. I see you are a 'newer' member, I hope you enjoy and learn from WF, because even though I don't agree with everyone about everything all the time I enjoy this place quite a lot


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## indianroads (Oct 8, 2021)

This is a good item for discussion, but whenever it comes up it usually goes off the rails. I wish we could be tolerant and civil and learn from one another, because women authors write men poorly just as often as men do.


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## VRanger (Oct 8, 2021)

indianroads said:


> This is a good item for discussion, but whenever it comes up it usually goes off the rails. I wish we could be tolerant and civil and learn from one another, because women authors write men poorly just as often as men do.


The point is, most members joined this discussion to try to either figure out how to handle the character technique better, or provide pointers for same. And that's the tremendous benefit of WF.

I'm certainly interested. In my last completed novel, my MC is male, but ALL the other major characters are female ... forget that they're goddesses and demons. LOL One is a disembodied presence who is insane and vindictive.

While of course you can write a stereo-type of EITHER sex (and my MC in that book is more of a stereo-type than the ladies, I believe), it doesn't mean a stereo-type isn't a real character. I KNOW people who fit those stereo-types ... possibly more than people who don't.

Writing a stereo-type isn't a sin ... it's in the realm of real life. It's frowned on in writing not because it's invalid, but because it's assumed we want to give the reader a different experience than they live every day.


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## Llyralen (Oct 8, 2021)

I don’t think stereotypes bother me— I don’t think. In themselves.  There are male stereotypes.  There are stereotypes that aren’t gender-specific.  Using stereotypes should be across the board.

It used to be (and not long ago)that a large majority of wives in stories were written as the picture of June Cleaver servitude. Always there with unperturbed love while the male character went through a crisis and got to be flawed and then grow.  But when MC women are flawed then it turns out there are now a lot of male partners being written who only want to help, have no problems of their own, and are ready with unconditional love, faith and patience

So it means this stereotype just has a purpose as a kind of foil and for everyone else to urge the flawed MC to wake up and appreciate what they’ve got.

BUT if 90% of what you read or see on TV is this stereotype of the serene care-giving cinnamon-roll baking, unaware, ambitionless,unflappable woman then boy does it ever mess with all of our expectations for women. Men are also victims due to not seeing real women in books and film as well.

All of this is not fixed yet, not by a long shot.


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## Foxee (Oct 8, 2021)

Maybe there isn't a lot more to be said about writing from the perspective of a woman once the wet blanket of 'stereotype' has been thrown on this. Maybe we can think about it anyway as a writing craft question instead of a political one. We know the political/social/sensitivity thing is there. Social media stands always ready to whip that horse.

Dig a little more. I do think that women and men have different perspectives. I think individuals have different perspectives, too. Don't be afraid to use observation and try to be thoughtful about it. A perspective written with no understanding can lead to caricature.


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## indianroads (Oct 8, 2021)

Stereotypes exist because people often have similarities - a lot of these are cultural though. A factory worker in China will have a different perspective than a rancher in Montana USA. Stereotypes can be a place to START when developing a character (male or female), but it's our job to breathe life into them, make them real and someone our readers can care about, love, or hate, and we do that be deviating from the stereotype or norm.

When my oldest daughter was 2 or 3 years old, whenever she picked up something she did it with her thumb and forefinger, with her pinky extended. My wife doesn't do that... nor did anyone else she had encountered... so, where the heck did that come from? At the time I wondered if she had an extra X chromosome.

In the end, people are people - and the best way to create and write characters is via observation of those we meet and observe.


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## VRanger (Oct 8, 2021)

indianroads said:


> Stereotypes exist because people often have similarities - a lot of these are cultural though. A factory worker in China will have a different perspective than a rancher in Montana USA. Stereotypes can be a place to START when developing a character (male or female), but it's our job to breathe life into them, make them real and someone our readers can care about, love, or hate, and we do that be deviating from the stereotype or norm.
> 
> When my oldest daughter was 2 or 3 years old, whenever she picked up something she did it with her thumb and forefinger, with her pinky extended. My wife doesn't do that... nor did anyone else she had encountered... so, where the heck did that come from?


Mannerism picked up in a past life. ;-)

Stereo-types also depend on the role of the character. Yes, you want your protagonists and anyone who gets significant stage time to have interesting personality. It's perfectly fine for a minor role-player to be a stereotype, and may even be preferable. There's no reason to make the reader work to figure out an incidental desk clerk or bellman. It's a bit like the characterization equivalent of @Taylor's contention regarding cliche phrasing.

There was a book series I abandoned several years ago, primarily because the authors at some point thought it would impress the reader if they droned on and on about history and details of society that were not only irrelevant to their story, but ridiculously boring. I got tired of flipping pages without reading them. However, another mistake they made was to overplay minor characters. They'd introduce a character and spend three or four pages on his backstory. It got to the point where I KNEW as soon as they started that shit, the poor bastard was about to suffer an untimely and horrible death. Every ... single ... time.


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## indianroads (Oct 8, 2021)

vranger said:


> Mannerism picked up in a past life. ;-)
> 
> Stereo-types also depend on the role of the character. Yes, you want your protagonists and anyone who gets significant stage time to have interesting personality. It's perfectly fine for a minor role-player to be a stereotype, and may even be preferable. There's no reason to make the reader work to figure out a desk clerk or a bellman. It's a bit like the characterization equivalent of @Taylor's contention regarding cliche phrasing.
> 
> There was a book series I abandoned several years ago, primarily because the authors at some point though it would impress the reader if they droned on and on about history and details of society that were not only irrelevant to their story, but ridiculously boring. I got tired of flipping pages without reading them. However, another mistake they made was to overplay minor characters. They'd introduce a character and spend three or four pages on his backstory. It got to the point where I KNEW as soon as they started that shit, the poor bastard was about to suffer an untimely and horrible death. Every ... single ... time.



The whole debate seems to hinge on the idea that our chromosomes create our personality and talents - FWIW, I don't believe that.

I recall a psychology class in collage where nurture vs nature was a hotly debated topic. The teacher insisted that our chromosomes make who we are - even to the careers we would have, and gave examples of twins separated at birth that ended up in the same jobs. There were two unrelated people in class that had twins - and they insisted that the couldn't be more different.

Parenting has a lot to do with how we turn out, but I believe we are gifted with natural abilities that are unique to ourselves. However, debating Descartes would lead us far down a rabbit hole, so lets not  go there.

At the end of the debate, I believe we must admit that we are all unique, and we should create our characters that way.

ETA  @vranger Yup - probably a past life. That girl grew up to have strong, take command personality.


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## Ralph Rotten (Oct 8, 2021)

This discussion is why I base most of my prime characters off real people._ Luckily I have known a broad assortment of interesting people_.
Writers seem to get in the most trouble when they entirely invent characters, rather than pattern them after an actual known quantity.
This seems to especially apply when men write women.


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## Llyralen (Oct 8, 2021)

Foxee said:


> I hear your challenge @Foxee, and I feel like trying my hand, but I also don’t actually think men and women think differently beyond the reproductive parts of our brains. I’ve heard neuroscientists say that after people are in their 40’s you can’t tell the difference between a male and female brain.  Not to say women lose femininity or men gain some but I’m wondering what differences they see in brain patterns even during the reproductive years and I will check that out.
> 
> Anatomical differences are always obvious and the experience of sex itself and pregnancy and  motherhood would be advanced subjects and so individual that I wouldn’t possibly discuss them here.  Hormonal differences seem very different during reproductive years with all the testosterone in some young males.



So thinking different?  I don’t actually believe we do except that I think our circumstances and societal expectations are very different, especially in the USA  and that means the information we are navigating and incorporating is different.  And @JBF observed group interactions are different which also seems obvious to observe.

 To me, writing women better would mean learning about what society is trying to teach her she is and putting themselves into a woman’s situation.  

When I write men I try to think of what society has told him he should be and also maybe in what ways he dares to differ.  Is he okay with himself to cry in public in a tragic situation?   Is he okay deciding to be dependent on someone?  How much aggression does he have? How much gentleness? How does my character interact with other men? How does he interact with females?  

That is actually where the nuances are at is in the interactions with others.  On our own?  I don’t think we are that different especially after age 40. 

So now I’m going to go check to see what neuroscience says exactly at this point.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Oct 8, 2021)

Bottom line and the very last time I ever engage in threads like this: Forget this shit. Just write your frickin' stories.


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## Ralph Rotten (Oct 8, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> So thinking different?  I don’t actually believe we do except that I think our circumstances and societal expectations are very different, especially in the USA  and that means the information we are navigating and incorporating is different.  And @JBF observed group interactions are different which also seems obvious to observe.
> 
> To me, writing women better would mean learning about what society is trying to teach her she is and putting themselves into a woman’s situation.
> 
> ...



So are all your characters either woke or misogynistic?
Sounds like you are writing by committee.


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## Llyralen (Oct 8, 2021)

Ralph Rotten said:


> So are all your characters either woke or misogynistic?
> Sounds like you are writing by committee.



Hmm. What skin have you got in this game, I wonder?  So let’s listen to you. 

What would you like to point out about your own characters here that might be better?


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## Ralph Rotten (Oct 8, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> Hmm. What skin have you got in this game, I wonder?  So let’s listen to you.
> 
> What would you like to point out about your own characters here that might be better?



I'll re-post my earlier comment [that you steamrolled over;]

This discussion is why I base most of my prime characters off real people._ Luckily I have known a broad assortment of interesting people_.
*Writers seem to get in the most trouble when they entirely invent characters, rather than pattern them after an actual known quantity.*
This seems to especially apply when men write women.


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## VRanger (Oct 8, 2021)

Ok folks. It seems like we've passed the "many things" and there are now more cabbages than kings here.

This one is going to Locked.


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## indianroads (Oct 8, 2021)

Keep is civil everyone.



Ralph Rotten said:


> This discussion is why I base most of my prime characters off real people._ Luckily I have known a broad assortment of interesting people_.
> Writers seem to get in the most trouble when they entirely invent characters, rather than pattern them after an actual known quantity.
> This seems to especially apply when men write women.


This points to something that I believe strongly - that writers should get out in the world and experience life and have adventures and meet a ton of normal and odd-ball people. How can anyone describe love, hate, loss, or redemption that has not experienced it? Sure, we can write sciFi about living on other planets and the like, but for the most part our characters will all be based on what we know about people here on Earth. The best stories (IMO) are about people - you can put them in space ships or on other planets, even make them fish if you like, but to make them relatable to your reading audience they need to have at least some familiar qualities. 

Women should not be alien to men, nor men be alien for women. Meet people. Watch them. Get to know them. Then take those traits and build characters with them.


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