# Writers' Group?



## Charon (Dec 9, 2011)

I’m a new writer: I’ve been writing creatively about a year and I’ve made great strides.  I was excited about WF when I found it: I was hoping to learn and grow as a writer by constructively critiquing and discussing others’ work in these forums, and having others critique and discuss my work. 

Unfortunately, the first thing I posted was trolled harder than any other post I’ve come across on this site.  It’s made me a bit reluctant to post more of my work, which I suppose was the Troll’s objective.  

Maybe I'm asking too much: I know it’s asking a lot to have someone read and critique a 3,500 word story.  But I’m offering reciprocity.  My dream is to find a group of two, three, four, or maybe five other people who are writing short stories, novellas, and/or novels and who interested in helping each other.  Do those sorts of people exist here?  If so, let me know. 

Thanks!


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## KangTheMad (Dec 9, 2011)

Charon said:


> I’m a new writer: I’ve been writing creatively about a year and I’ve made great strides.  I was excited about WF when I found it: I was hoping to learn and grow as a writer by constructively critiquing and discussing others’ work in these forums, and having others critique and discuss my work.
> 
> Unfortunately, the first thing I posted was trolled harder than any other post I’ve come across on this site.  It’s made me a bit reluctant to post more of my work, which I suppose was the Troll’s objective.
> 
> ...



When did this event occur? If it was recent, please PM the board moderator with a link to the thread in question and it will be taken care of.


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## JosephB (Dec 10, 2011)

I read the comments on your story. They're atypical of what you'll normally find on the site. Check out more stories and read the critiques -- you'll see that there are plenty of people here interested in helping each other. I know that's the case in the Writer's Workshop where I post, but I'm betting it's the same elsewhere. Stick around -- I'm pretty sure you'll find what you're looking for.


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## Bloggsworth (Dec 10, 2011)

Charon - A search reveals that you have posted the beginning of a story and that this elicited only one response:
_
"I found the characters, Carla and Evelyn really unlikeable. The characters are cut-out cliches, but its just the first chapter so I can't judge them fully yet and surely they'll become more fleshed out later. 
The story didn't catch my attention either."

_If that is what you call *trolling*, then I would suggest that you need to acquire a thicker skin. You cannot post, ask for a critique, then complain when you get one - There is absolutely no point in we who post on the forum handing out chocolates and roses for every story/poem/lyric whatever their quality, if we did it would teach you nothing about your writing, but rather more about our integrity. What you got was an honest opinion with the encouragement that "..._surely they'll become more fleshed out later."_


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## garza (Dec 10, 2011)

Charon - I've just finished reading your story and adding a brief comment. 

You need, perhaps, to be a bit less sensitive. When I was a kid writing for the local daily the editor would occasionally refer to an article I'd written as a bit of excrement, explain in colourful detail why that was so, and demand a rewrite. Had I been offended by his comments my career as a writer would no doubt have ended before it had properly begun.


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## Jon M (Dec 10, 2011)

Charon said:


> My dream is to find a group of two, three, four, or maybe five other people who are writing short stories, novellas, and/or novels and who interested in helping each other.  Do those sorts of people exist here?


Try posting in the Writer's Workshop. The quality is generally higher there and you'll probably find what you're looking for. However, you should know that the critique you received, while brief, was not too far out of line.


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## Kyle R (Dec 10, 2011)

I second johnMG's recommendation ^

Give the Writer's Workshop a chance. It might be just what you're looking for.

Also, I should say, you have to develop a thick skin when it comes to criticism. Often you may not like what is being told, but sometimes writers can become so enamored with their own writing that they will react negatively to anyone who doesn't also feel the same way.

The first short-story I ever wrote, the very first one, I showed it to a friend. She said, "I hate it. I hate the main character, too. It just was really bad and please don't ask me to read any more of your writing."

Ouch!

But then, I took a step back and looked at my story impartially (as best I could), and I realized that, while she could have minced her words a bit better, my friend was actually right. The main character was very unlikable, and the story was, overall, a pile of garbage. But the only way I came to that realization was by accepting her criticism -- taking it with a grain of salt, mind you, because not all criticism is fair nor accurate -- and looking to see how I could improve.

So, in the case of your story that was posted, I saw a comment that the characters seemed "cliche". This isn't a trolling remark, in my opinion, it's a helpful one.

I've been told in many of my stories, over the course of a few years, whenever something seemed "pointless", "cliche", "boring", "disappointing", "weak".

At first I had the same reaction as you.. feeling attacked. Now, though, I welcome those remarks with open arms, because it means there's something I can work on to make myself a better writer.

Cheers


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## theorphan (Dec 10, 2011)

So Sharon, two comments, first we all know it hurts when someone doesn't like what you have written but think of it this way:  maybe that isn't who you were writing it for.  Second: there are other places you can get critiques if you solely want a critique check out Scribophile.


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## KangTheMad (Dec 12, 2011)

KyleColorado said:


> I second johnMG's recommendation ^
> 
> Give the Writer's Workshop a chance. It might be just what you're looking for.
> 
> ...



I have to agree with this post. Helpful, friendly and still points out an issue. Don't think I can add anything else to it except to not sweat it, I know an author that had to do about a dozen rewrites of her novel before it got published.


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## JosephB (Dec 12, 2011)

KyleColorado said:


> So, in the case of your story that was posted, I saw a comment that the characters seemed "cliche". This isn't a trolling remark, in my opinion, it's a helpful one.



Maybe it's not "trolling," but simply saying that characters  are cliché without  an explanation or an example not only comes off as somewhat rude – it’s not very helpful either. I’ve been reading critiques for a while, and I’ve found that critiques offered by people who feel they’re just being “blunt” are often not very constructive -- and this is good example.

I work with creative people every day, and when I’m evaluating work, I always start with something positive before I go into what isn’t working -- then I make sure to wrap it up on a positive note. I know we’re all supposed to have thick skin, but that’s really the best way to get good work out of people. So if folks are really interested in helping people improve, then some effort should be made to deliver criticism in a way that isn’t discouraging.


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## KarlR (Dec 12, 2011)

It sucks to be told that someone didn't love your writing.  The key is to keep your writing separate from your self.  Although you may pour one into the other, they are not a single unit.  When you ask for a critique of your writing, you will receive a critique of your writing.  If you receive something along the line of "You're ugly and your mother dresses you funny," then you are the victim of a Troll and you have cause for complaint.

The purpose of a critique is to point out where your writing could stand improvement.  Unless your name is Hemmingway or Steinbeck, your writing could probably stand improvement.  Take the crit to heart, go back and rebuild using the critic's suggestions and see if you don't agree that the result was worth the pain.

Finally, and this is key, opinions are like a**holes:  We all have one and they all stink.  (Well, except for mine! 8))  You're basing your entire self-worth on one single opinion.  Pick yourself up and resolve to get better.


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## j.w.olson (Dec 12, 2011)

KarlR said:


> Unless your name is Hemmingway or Steinbeck


They could each stand to improve a little too, I would argue.


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## felix (Dec 12, 2011)

j.w.olson said:


> They could each stand to improve a little too, I would argue.



Sir, you have offended me and I must challenge you to a duel! 

I have to say that I'm in the same boat as the OP. I've only been here a month or so and I've never come across anybody who'd be interesting my writing before this, so I've been quite isolated. I've gotten a few lovely and quite informative critiques, but my skin is still paper thin and I must admit that I do feel hurt by criticism, even though I'm certain that it's all constructive. 

I'd just say give it time. I'm sure that we'll both grow a spine at some point.


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## JosephB (Dec 12, 2011)

Here's a Hemingway thing I read once that I'd point out on a critique -- he wrote that one of his characters was driving down the road "and turned into a cafe."

Poof! You're a cafe!


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## Bloggsworth (Dec 12, 2011)

So Charon, what is your response to all this mild and helpful advice, a lot of people have taken time and trouble to offer help.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Dec 12, 2011)

The critique by helium could only be considered trolling if it was undeserved.  My concern (since, as the others said, it's legitimate criticism and nowhere near trolling) is that your complaint is not so much "I got trolled and think that's unfair" as it is "I posted my work expecting to get praised and wasn't."

Everyone's writing needs improvement, and we're all trying to better ourselves here.  It's just not feasible to expect other writers - people who have spent years studying and practicing the craft - to heap praise on your first submission.  Just accept what they have to say, whether you like it or not, and use that to improve.


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## Charon (Dec 12, 2011)

*Charon's Quoteapalooza*

Thank you, everyone, for your thoughtful, helpful and positive responses.  This is what initially drew me to WF.  



			
				felix said:
			
		

> I have to say that I'm in the same boat as the OP.  I've only been here a month or so and I've never come across anybody who'd be interesting my writing before this, so I've been quite isolated. I've gotten a few lovely and quite informative critiques, but my skin is still paper thin and I must admit that I do feel hurt by criticism, even though I'm certain that it's all constructive.  I'd just say give it time.  I'm sure that we'll both grow a spine at some point.


Argh!  I’m not upset and/or spineless!  Didn’t you guys see the smiley that I appended to the topic title?!?  

Felix?  You got “_a few_ lovely and quite informative critiques”?  I’m _so_ jealous.  

But seriously: all I want to do is improve as a writer.  That’s the only reason I’m here.  Constructive criticism is precisely what I’m looking for.  



			
				Bloggsworth said:
			
		

> If that is what you call *trolling*, then I would suggest that you need to acquire a thicker skin. You cannot post, ask for a critique, then complain when you get one - There is absolutely no point in we who post on the forum handing out chocolates and roses for every story/poem/lyric whatever their quality, if we did it would teach you nothing about your writing, but rather more about our integrity.  What you got was an honest opinion with the encouragement that "..._surely they'll become more fleshed out later."_


I know Helium’s post arguably falls within the parameters suggested by The Reviewer's Handbook; that’s why I didn’t bother to PM a mod.   I guess the point, Bloggsworth, is that you think that Helium’s post will help to “teach . . . [me] about . . . writing.”  

But I think JosephB said it best:  



			
				JosephB said:
			
		

> I read the comments on your story. They're atypical of what you'll normally find on the site.





			
				JosephB said:
			
		

> Maybe it's not "trolling," but simply saying that characters are cliché without an explanation or an example not only comes off as somewhat rude – it’s not very helpful either.  I’ve been reading critiques for a while, and I’ve found that critiques offered by people who feel they’re just being “blunt” are often not very constructive—and this is good example.


The comment is indeed atypical of WF—there’s no doubt in my mind.  That’s why I’m still here.  

But my purpose in posting wasn’t to whine about another user’s post: it was to explore the creation of a group of thoughtful, mutually supportive but constructively critical people that are committed to helping each other grow as writers.  



			
				JohnMG said:
			
		

> Try posting in the Writer's Workshop. The quality is generally higher there and you'll probably find what you're looking for.  However, you should know that the critique you received, while brief, was not too far out of line.



I shall post there—I wish I’d posted Chapter 1 there.  But I’ve read hundreds of users’ comments here on WF, and if I thought for a microsecond that Helium’s ‘critique was “not too far out of line” for WF, I’d have never bothered to register here.  

Through no fault of anyone other than me, this thread has been derailed by my reference to Helium’s ‘critique’ of my work.  I mentioned what happened to me only as an example of the opposite of what I’m looking for . . . the opposite of what I’m offering to others.  

I’ll let Helium’s ‘critique’ stand on its own merits.  I’m sorry I brought it up, and I won’t mention it again.  



			
				theorphan said:
			
		

> So [C]haron, two comments, first we all know it hurts when someone doesn't like what you have written but think of it this way: maybe that isn't who you were writing it for.  Second: there are other places you can get critiques if you solely want a critique check out Scribophile.


I know that 99.9% of the people who aren’t related to me—and a slim majority of those who are—don’t like my writing.  That’s why I’m here trying to get better.  I’m not willing to give up on WF just yet, but I did peek at Scribophile.  Listen to this from their site:

“[Scribophile] is a respectful community of writers who’re passionate about improving each other’s writing through thoughtful critiques and the sharing of knowledge and experience.”  

Doesn’t that sound nice?  Why can’t we have that here?  I think we can.  That’s what I’d hoped to join or build when I posted.  



			
				Garza said:
			
		

> You need, perhaps, to be a bit less sensitive. When I was a kid writing for the local daily the editor would occasionally refer to an article I'd written as a bit of excrement, explain in colourful detail why that was so, and demand a rewrite.



Garza, Thank you for the bump to my story.  I appreciate it.  Actually, at this point I would _kill_ for a explanation “in colorful detail” why my story is excrement.  That’s what I’m here looking for.  

And finally, to Kyle, Kank and Karl—

[The Alliteration Gods are smiling tonight! What are the odds?!? :-D]

—I entirely agree with each of you.  “_Helpful, friendly and still points out an issue_.”  That’s what I strive to give others in every post I make here--and that’s all I’m hoping to get for myself.


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## moderan (Dec 14, 2011)

Charon said:


> Thank you, everyone, for your thoughtful, helpful and positive responses.  This is what initially drew me to WF.      Doesn’t that sound nice?  Why can’t we have that here?  I think we can.  That’s what I’d hoped to join or build when I posted.      “_Helpful, friendly and still points out an issue_.”  That’s what I strive to give others in every post I make here--and that’s all I’m hoping to get for myself.


  The Writer's Workshop has operated that way for years. We also have the Literary Maneuvers group of flash fictioneers and you can build your own community within the community if you so wish. The best way to get critiques is to give them, and to network while you're doing so. That method doesn't fail unless you have some really bad personality quirks. Folks aren't allowed to flame each other here. That eliminates 95% of the bad crits. If you do all that and your story is still getting ignored, pm a staff member. You're guaranteed to get at least one review that way. It can even be positive if you're nice (sarcasm : on)


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## felix (Dec 14, 2011)

Charon said:


> Argh!  I’m not upset and/or spineless!  Didn’t you guys see the smiley that I appended to the topic title?!?
> 
> Felix?  You got “_a few_ lovely and quite informative critiques”?  I’m _so_ jealous.
> 
> But seriously: all I want to do is improve as a writer.  That’s the only reason I’m here.  Constructive criticism is precisely what I’m looking for.



Wahey, I didn't mean to say that you were spineless, what I meant was that we'll develop a thick skin as our critiques pile up.


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## JosephB (Dec 14, 2011)

Charon said:


> But I think JosephB said it best:



Good. I see you're catching on to the way things work around here.


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