# What did you study in college/uni?



## Heavy Thorn (Jun 7, 2011)

Pretty simple question.  I've been out of school for 2 years now, and I wasn't really planning on going to college, but recently I've been thinking about it again.  Just curious what y'all majored/minored in.


----------



## Dudester (Jun 7, 2011)

Major in Constitutional Law with a minor in English.


----------



## Jinxi (Jun 7, 2011)

Still studying - majoring in Psychology and Criminal Psychology.


----------



## ElDavido (Jun 7, 2011)

Joint jonours in English Lit and Philosophy. Had to be different and be in the UK system!


----------



## JosephB (Jun 7, 2011)

Minored in advertising and graphic design. Majored in drinking and smoking weed.


----------



## Terry D (Jun 7, 2011)

Major in biology, minor in psychology.


----------



## garza (Jun 7, 2011)

Major in English, Minor in Spanish (BA 1) Major in History, Minor in Philosophy (BA 2) English (MA)


----------



## elite (Jun 7, 2011)

I'm Majoring in Computer Science. No idea of what will come next though.


----------



## Glass Pencil (Jun 7, 2011)

Still working through my Electrical Engineering degree.

With this company I feel positively practical!


----------



## garza (Jun 7, 2011)

Glass Pencil - With an EE you should. You will be able to go out and _do_ something. The rest of us will write about it.


----------



## Bilston Blue (Jun 7, 2011)

Joint BA (hons) in History & War Studies. Would love to do an MA in Creative Writing, though current circumstances dictate that I won't. Maybe one day.


----------



## ClosetWriter (Jun 7, 2011)

Computer Information Systems (design databases) It's not as boring as it sounds.


----------



## elite (Jun 7, 2011)

ClosetWriter said:


> Computer Information Systems (design databases) It's not as boring as it sounds.



Databases are boring though >.>

Well, it's fine until the first 10 tables or so; after that it gets... not very exiting.


----------



## BoredMormon (Jun 7, 2011)

Biochemical engineering. Though I'm working as a chemical engineer.


----------



## ClosetWriter (Jun 7, 2011)

elite said:


> Databases are boring though >.>
> 
> Well, it's fine until the first 10 tables or so; after that it gets... not very exiting.



True, but I am talking about the front-end-client-side bells and whistles... I like to pretty them up with photoshop


----------



## Forest Girl (Jun 7, 2011)

I'm taking courses right now, with no idea where I am going. I am talking to an adviser tomorrow.
So far it has been mostly psychology and English. But I think I'd like to study Nutrition and Health. 

I looked for "How to Become a Billionaire 101", but my school doesn't offer that course.
And I really did want to get a B.A. in Becoming Wealthy.


----------



## elite (Jun 7, 2011)

ClosetWriter said:


> True, but I am talking about the front-end-client-side bells and whistles... I like to pretty them up with photoshop


 
That is cool. What framework do you develop with?


----------



## Eluixa (Jun 7, 2011)

Studio Art. If I had a minor in mind, I don't remember it now.


----------



## ScientistAsHero (Jun 7, 2011)

I went to ITT Tech (unfortunately... most costly mistake of my life) and got an Associate's Degree in Multimedia (which focuses on broadcast graphics, 3d animation, etc.).

Recently I've been doing a web tech program online and want to do web development.


----------



## ScientistAsHero (Jun 7, 2011)

Web development only in case I never become a world-famous author, that is (haha).


----------



## Angel101 (Jun 7, 2011)

I'm majoring in biochemistry at my university. Got a while to go and then dental school after that. Don't recommend it unless you're going into the medical field. Ha, ha.


----------



## JosephB (Jun 7, 2011)

Heh. I was just at the dentist today. He's a good friend -- lives in our neighborhood and our kids play together. He makes a  very good living -- and I don't really get why, but he really enjoys what he does and finds it very satisfying. He certainly is always in a jolly mood when I'm at his office.


----------



## Heavy Thorn (Jun 7, 2011)

Honestly, I'd be freaked out by a dentist in a jolly mood.  :shock:


----------



## ScientistAsHero (Jun 7, 2011)

I'd be even more freaked out if the dentist seemed to be in a pissed-off or despondent mood...


----------



## Dudester (Jun 7, 2011)

VanishingSpy said:


> I'd be even more freaked out if the dentist seemed to be in a pissed-off or despondent mood...


 
What if you worked on the suicide hotline ? And on day you woke up,....a little depressed. Do you call in ?


----------



## Ilasir Maroa (Jun 7, 2011)

Majoring in Linguistics(BS), Minor in Slacking.


----------



## Angel101 (Jun 8, 2011)

Heavy Thorn said:


> Honestly, I'd be freaked out by a dentist in a jolly mood. :shock:



Ha, ha! I love dentistry! I'm a dental assistant, and it's such a great field and a lot of fun to work in. I enjoy it immensely, which is why I'm becoming a dentist. I really want to specialize and become an oral surgeon. And the perk is definitely the money. Dental treatment is VERY expensive, so yeah, dentists make a lot of money. I didn't realize how much they actually made until I already decided that was what I wanted to do. Then I looked into it, and I was like... Whoa. Ha, ha. But the student loans I'm gonna have to pay back from dental school... I'll need a good living.


----------



## ScientistAsHero (Jun 8, 2011)

Dudester said:


> What if you worked on the suicide hotline ? And on day you woke up,....a little depressed. Do you call in ?



For my sake, I would hope so!


----------



## ScientistAsHero (Jun 8, 2011)

Angel101 said:


> Ha, ha! I love dentistry! I'm a dental assistant, and it's such a great field and a lot of fun to work in. I enjoy it immensely, which is why I'm becoming a dentist. I really want to specialize and become an oral surgeon. And the perk is definitely the money. Dental treatment is VERY expensive, so yeah, dentists make a lot of money. I didn't realize how much they actually made until I already decided that was what I wanted to do. Then I looked into it, and I was like... Whoa. Ha, ha. But the student loans I'm gonna have to pay back from dental school... I'll need a good living.



The assistants at the dentist that I go to seem to have a great time. There is this one assistant who is probably in her late forties, early fifties... as I lay there in the chair, she will sit there helping the dentist, all the while telling him about the latest BS she's had to put up with from her no-good ex-husband; fights that her and her teenage children have gotten into, and so on... she really does make getting a cavity filled pass by quickly.


----------



## Skeletor (Jun 8, 2011)

I have a BA with majors in English Lit. and Psychology, and at some point I'll finish the last year of my BSc in Comp. Sci. and Maths.  My kids being born kind of derailed my study efforts, but I've only got a few credits left to complete so I'll get round to it at some point.

I work for a big multi-national firm that's part of Deutsche Telekom (T-Systems), but I'd rather be working for myself or developing games.

PS: databases are cool!


----------



## garza (Jun 8, 2011)

Databases are neither boring nor cool. They fall into the category of software that is useful, my favourite category.


----------



## Skeletor (Jun 8, 2011)

garza said:


> Databases are neither boring nor cool. They fall into the category of software that is useful, my favourite category.


 
I dunno, I reckon that database design and implementation is a very cool field to work in.  In terms of database management software packages, well, some are more useful (and thus cooler) than others.


----------



## elite (Jun 8, 2011)

garza said:


> Databases are neither boring nor cool. They fall into the category of software that is useful, my favourite category.


 
And what development tool doesn't? =\


----------



## Skeletor (Jun 8, 2011)

elite said:


> And what development tool doesn't? =\


 
Just to be a bit of a pedant (not to try and hijack the thread):

Databases are neither software nor development tools.  A database is just a collection or repository of data.  In terms of software, yes, you get different bits of software (including development tools and database management systems) designed to help you develop and maintain different types of databases.

Developers tend to think of databases in terms of relational databases, which means entity relationship modeling and all that other good stuff, all of which is underpinned by big fat healthy gobs of discrete maths and set theory.

When I used to interview people for my old company's consulting team, one of the first questions I would ask: "Do you feel that working with databases and shifting various BLOBs (haha) of data around is fun?"


----------



## ClosetWriter (Jun 8, 2011)

elite said:


> That is cool. What framework do you develop with?


 
I have mostly worked with Visual Basic, but I have just started looking into some open source alternatives. You?


----------



## ClosetWriter (Jun 8, 2011)

VanishingSpy said:


> I went to ITT Tech (unfortunately... most costly mistake of my life) and got an Associate's Degree in Multimedia (which focuses on broadcast graphics, 3d animation, etc.).
> 
> Recently I've been doing a web tech program online and want to do web development.


 
I know that ITT is very expensive. I also know that I will probably catch some flack for saying this, but -- too me technology degrees are more about hanging a diploma on your wall than they are about preparing you for a job. I feel like most people who are in this field knew a great deal about the subject before they took classes. I also know that technology changes so quickly that you better learn way more on your own than you ever did in school or you won't be in the field long.

Remember: There are 10 types of people in the world -- those who understand binary, and those who don't.


----------



## elite (Jun 8, 2011)

Skeletor said:


> Just to be a bit of a pedant (not to try and hijack the thread):
> 
> Databases are neither software nor development tools.  A database is just a collection or repository of data.  In terms of software, yes, you get different bits of software (including development tools and database management systems) designed to help you develop and maintain different types of databases.



Aren't you nitpicking a bit much? We were clearly talking about relational database implementations. Which are software development tools. I know databases are collections of data and nothing else, but isn't saying relational database implementation every time a bit much? Well, I could have said SQL and be done with it, but then non-developers wouldn't understand jack about what I'm saying. =\

I have to admit that I twisted the meaning of garza's words a little, because we were talking about SQL databases and I wasn't sure if he was referring to those or databases in general, so I intentionally assumed he was talking about SQL (he probably wasn't).



> I have mostly worked with Visual Basic, but I have just started looking into some open source alternatives. You?



I started off web-development with PHP5 and MySQL, and since then I've been through Ruby on Rails and ASP 4.0 using C# and SQL Server. Never touched VB, but in the end C# and VB are both translated to CIL when compiled so it's all the same.

I've been backing away from front-end web development though, I think I'm going to end up writing middle-ware and business-logic for the most part, and maybe security. 



> I know that ITT is very expensive. I also know that I will probably  catch some flack for saying this, but -- too me technology degrees are  more about hanging a diploma on your wall than they are about preparing  you for a job. I feel like most people who are in this field knew a  great deal about the subject before they took classes. I also know that  technology changes so quickly that you better learn way more on your own  than you ever did in school or you won't be in the field long.



This is very true. When working with technology, researching on your own is what sets you aside from the rest. I've done a lot of independent study on a great deal of things, and so far university's been a breeze (save for calculus; while I never failed, it was tough). At least in computer science, it's surprising how simple things are when you take your time to learn whatever you please instead of struggling before tests.



> Remember: There are 10 types of people in the world -- those who understand binary, and those who don't.



Ah, that joke always gets me!


----------



## Skeletor (Jun 8, 2011)

elite said:


> Aren't you nitpicking a bit much? We were clearly talking about relational database implementations. Which are software development tools. I know databases are collections of data and nothing else, but isn't saying relational database implementation every time a bit much? Well, I could have said SQL and be done with it, but then non-developers wouldn't understand jack about what I'm saying. =\
> 
> I have to admit that I twisted the meaning of garza's words a little, because we were talking about SQL databases and I wasn't sure if he was referring to those or databases in general, so I intentionally assumed he was talking about SQL (he probably wasn't).


 
No, I'm really not.

Relational database implementations aren't development tools themselves.  You USE various tools to develop and manage database systems, relational or not.  Not all database systems use strict relational models either.  Strictly speaking, something like MS-SQL Server is a Relational Database Management System (R-DBMS), and it is packaged with various tools (like SQL Management Studio) to help you with development and admin jobs.

You also can't just say SQL, because that introduces more ambiguity.  SQL is a language, but people also use it as shorthand for referring to Microsoft SQL Server (and sometimes other database systems).  There are also various dialects of SQL, like PL-SQL and T-SQL etc.  Some dialects of SQL (like the ones used in SAP development) are far away enough from the ANSII standards in some ways that it's a chore for even an experienced develop to pick up.

The reason that I'm picky about this sort of thing is because in my line of work, a lot of confusion is created when people toss around terms semi-correctly, especially when they're doing it in a non-technical forum.  I was a trainer for a number of years, often doing training abroad, and you'd be surprised how much people (even developers) are not always as aligned with what's being discussed as you'd think.

It helps to use the specific terms correctly, so while I'm not quite Richard Stallman when it comes to this kind of thing, I try to point potential issues out when I spot them.


----------



## elite (Jun 8, 2011)

Skeletor said:


> Relational database implementations aren't development tools themselves.  You USE various tools to develop and manage database systems, relational or not.



An implementation of relational databases does nothing by itself, thus is a tool for development of something. Development of what exactly? That depends on what you are doing. Then again, my knowledge on databases is strictly practical and lacking in depth.

I referred relational database implementations as tools for development simply because that's what they are. Development is not strictly software; the database implementation could be used as-is to develop and maintain a collection of data, but that is still a tool in itself and it's use is in itself developing something.



> Not all database systems use strict relational models either.  Strictly speaking, something like MS-SQL Server is a Relational Database Management System (R-DBMS), and it is packaged with various tools (like SQL Management Studio) to help you with development and admin jobs.


Well, hardly any relational database implementations use SQL to the letter. There are also all the inner optimizations and what not. But they are, still, tools for developing databases, and dialects of SQL can be referred as a whole as SQL and in broad terms no one would complain about it.



> You also can't just say SQL, because that introduces more ambiguity.  SQL is a language, but people also use it as shorthand for referring to Microsoft SQL Server (and sometimes other database systems).  There are also various dialects of SQL, like PL-SQL and T-SQL etc.  Some dialects of SQL (like the ones used in SAP development) are far away enough from the ANSII standards in some ways that it's a chore for even an experienced develop to pick up.


I understand the misuses of the word SQL, and what you are saying is very true. But for very general and vague terms, I think it's safe to call all database implementations and their SQL dialects as SQL Databases; everyone would understand what you are referring to (except that moron that calls SQL Server as SQL).



> The reason that I'm picky about this sort of thing is because in my line of work, a lot of confusion is created when people toss around terms semi-correctly, especially when they're doing it in a non-technical forum.  I was a trainer for a number of years, often doing training abroad, and you'd be surprised how much people (even developers) are not always as aligned with what's being discussed as you'd think.


One thing is misusing terms when disambiguation is needed, and when it's not. In this discussion it makes no difference, thus such levels of technicality are not needed. I understand what you are saying, but for a writing forum this is overkill. =\



> It helps to use the specific terms correctly, so while I'm not quite Richard Stallman when it comes to this kind of thing, I try to point potential issues out when I spot them.


To put an example, were we talking about flies and their variations, it would make sense for the name "drosophila melanogaster" to show up, but for any other kind of discussion, fly does the job just fine.


----------



## garza (Jun 8, 2011)

elite - Somehow I missed the point that the discussion was only about databases as development tools. I am not a software developer, only a user. I run Access 2007 on one machine and 2010 on this machine and am perfectly happy with Access' ability to store, organise, and access data. When you say something like 'An implementation of relational databases does nothing by itself...' I've no idea what you are talking about. For me as a writer no software is an end in itself - just a means to an end.

Sorry I butted in.


----------



## elite (Jun 8, 2011)

garza said:


> elite - Somehow I missed the point that the discussion was only about databases as development tools.



It's alright. It's quite the obscure (and most certainly off-topic) topic if you are not a developer. 



> I run Access 2007 on one machine and 2010 on this machine and am perfectly happy with Access' ability to store, organise, and access data.



Yes, access is a nice tool to manage data. What we use is not much different, but it has more advanced functionality and runs in the back-end of the applications we develop. In fact, I believe Access uses MS SQL Server in one way or another, though I'm not sure about this.



> When you say something like 'An implementation of relational databases does nothing by itself...' I've no idea what you are talking about. For me as a writer no software is an end in itself - just a means to an end.



What I meant is that the database implementation (say, access) is there to help you create and maintain a model where you store and query for data in some sort of organized fashion. The database in itself doesn't do anything, it's how you use it, and the abstract model you build with it. That's why I called it a "tool for development".


----------



## JosephB (Jun 8, 2011)

ClosetWriter said:


> I know that ITT is very expensive. I also know that I will probably catch some flack for saying this, but -- too me technology degrees are more about hanging a diploma on your wall than they are about preparing you for a job.



You can say that about a lot of degrees. A lot of them don't prepare you for the working world. It's mostly about on-the-job training. Also, where you go to school isn't as important as some people might think it is -- especially beyond the first job. Then it's more about your accomplishments and track record. 

I went to design school at a state university. I know folks who went to Parsons or Pratt and spent 5 times the tuition and their portfolios weren't any better than mine. Once I opened my book, the people with whom I was interviewing didn't care where I went to school. It was all about the work.


----------



## ClosetWriter (Jun 8, 2011)

JosephB said:


> You can say that about a lot of degrees. A lot of them don't prepare you for the working world. It's mostly about on-the-job training. Also, where you go to school isn't as important as some people might think it is -- especially beyond the first job. Then it's more about your accomplishments and track record.
> 
> I went to design school at a state university. I know folks who went to Parsons or Pratt and spent 5 times the tuition and their portfolios weren't any better than mine. Once I opened my book, the people with whom I was interviewing didn't care where I went to school. It was all about the work.


 
I agree with you 100%. I find it mind boggling how little I was actually taught in terms of what was required for me to get my degree.


----------



## ClosetWriter (Jun 8, 2011)

Wow! I had no idea that the mention of the word "database" could stir up so much emotion. 
Skeletor -- your unwavering attempt to right the world, in all that is wrong, with regards to technological semantics is quite exasperating. I see only one way to deal with you…

*                                                           “By the power of Greyskull*, I HAVE THE POWER!"

Ha ha -- now that's funny.


----------



## ScientistAsHero (Jun 8, 2011)

What I found when I went to ITT is that, even though they charged an exorbitant amount, the quality of my particular field of study was not all that good. For a school that taught students tech-heavy programs like Flash or 3d Studio Max, we had sub-par hardware and instruction. I remember one of my instructors who went out of his way to try to get new equipment and software, but he was pretty much refused at every turn by the administrators of the school. He had no qualms about telling us how ridiculous it was that ITT charged us students so much money for such a lacking program of study.

ITT just tries to spread itself too thin... "Multimedia" was not one of its original degree offerings and it seems like they began offering it solely to counter schools like Full Sail. But I think that if they are going to branch off and try to sell programs like this, they should be prepared to spend the money to make them as competitive and valuable as what you'd get at a 4-year school. I graduated from there in 2006, and since then I've seen them branch off even further with programs like Criminal Justice and Nursing. I wonder if those programs are as lacking as Multimedia was.

But, ultimately it was my decision to attend. I knew the cost up front. I guess I was just a little bit disillusioned with the quality of the program once I got into it. And, unfortunately, when you sign on for a program of study there, you buy the whole thing and it's not like you can quit after one or two semesters without losing a bunch of money.


----------



## JosephB (Jun 8, 2011)

The hardware and instruction was lacking at my school too -- and I complained about. But they concentrated more on design theory, the principles of effective visual communications and problem solving. The expectation was more or less that we'd have to learn the software mostly on our own -- that the technology would change anyway, so it was better to learn about what works and what doesn't. I can see the wisdom of that now, but I wasn't too happy about it at the time.

Anyway -- it all worked out well. I wish I could say it was after careful consideration and that I made the right choice -- but I went to the university in my state, it was the best value and I had some scholarship money -- so it was luck more than anything.


----------



## Skeletor (Jun 8, 2011)

ClosetWriter said:


> Wow! I had no idea that the mention of the word "database" could stir up so much emotion.
> Skeletor -- your unwavering attempt to right the world, in all that is wrong, with regards to technological semantics is quite exasperating. I see only one way to deal with you…
> 
> *                                                           “By the power of Greyskull*, I HAVE THE POWER!"
> ...



Haha, sorry.  Yes, elite is right: this isn't the place for it really.  Sometimes I can't help myself. :tongue:

Back OT: There are some fair points made here about how much tertiary education really prepares you (if at all) for the work you'll be doing in whatever field eventually.

If you study programming and specialise in a particular language or platform (say, Java) you'll often find that as a graduate you will take many months just to get up to speed in terms of how a particular company likes to run its implementations (not to mention all the business related stuff that, hey, nothing in your degree could prepare you for).  In fact, even experienced and qualified people take time to shift paradigms when moving between companies, and I'm not sure there's much you can do to prepare for it.  You simply get better at it as you go along and your experience base grows I guess.

It's important, even mandatory in most careers (not only IT) to keep your various certifications current, and to further your knowledge (formally if possible) as an ongoing, almost lifelong goal.

I sometimes think a lot of kids are sold this line of Primary -> Secondary -> Tertiary -> Job -> Death, like once you've graduated that's it: the learning stops.  Most of the people I know who really get ahead are the ones who are never really satisfied with their level of knowledge, and are always seeking to grow it.  They see tertiary education as merely one of many avenues to further that goal, rather than an end in itself.


----------



## garza (Jun 8, 2011)

This all reminds me of a lecturer I knew when I was an undergraduate. There was a course offered in Shakespeare's tragedies. My grandfather had insisted I read as much of Shakespeare as I could hold from an early age. He had me memorise some of the popular speeches. 

Believing the undergraduate course would be a good way to expand and organise my early readings, I signed up, and to be certain I went to class prepared I re-read all the tragedies before the start of the term. The lecturer turned out to be a newly minted PhD whose area of study was the development of the English novel in the 17th and 18th centuries. From day one he demonstrated his profound ignorance of Shakespeare.  

Being an intelligent burro – I was probably 17 at the time - I began asking him technical questions about the structure of the plays, about Shakespeare’s sources, and about his development of characters and plot. The begowned and learnéd Master had prepared lectures, which he tried to read, but which I constantly interrupted, asking for clarification of various points. One day, about three weeks into the course, he cut the class short, gathered up his notes and, when he left the room, was, according to some witnesses, in tears.

The next day the Provost joined me for lunch in the canteen and made an offer I could not refuse. If I promised nevermore to attend that class, or any other class to which that lecturer was assigned, the Provost would go ahead and give me a completion and an ‘A’ for tragedies. Further, provided I pay the tuition, the same for the matching course in the comedies which I had planned to take the next term.


----------



## JosephB (Jun 8, 2011)

Impressive. I've taken a class where I knew more than the teacher. I'd tried not to be a jerk about it though.


----------



## garza (Jun 8, 2011)

Why not? You paid your money to be taught by someone who knew more than you about the subject. That's why you signed up for the course, paid the tuition, bought the required books, and showed up for class. If the lecturer knows less than you do, what's the point of being there? 

Truth is I thought I would be asked to withdraw from the class and would be given a refund, so it turned out far better than I expected.  

As a charter member of _La asociación internacional de burros inteligentes_ I claim the right to be a jerk when the need arises.

Edit - As a matter of fact, going back to my early teen years, this was part of the greasers' code of ethics. I've now watched several of the clips with the 'Fonzie' character and he was definitely one of us. We would have welcomed him on the stage crew.


----------



## elite (Jun 8, 2011)

garza said:


> Why not? You paid your money to be taught by someone who knew more than you about the subject. That's why you signed up for the course, paid the tuition, bought the required books, and showed up for class. If the lecturer knows less than you do, what's the point of being there?



Well, you are paying to be taught what the class is supposed to teach you and at a certain level of depth and difficulty. By passing these classes, you prove you know enough to take the more advanced ones. I think they didn't expect such a dedicated Shakespeare reader to show up! While that gives you credit, it doesn't make the teacher necessarily bad. They often leave the more experienced teachers to higher levels, where students expect more of them.

I'm often a semester ahead when it comes to programming, so I just give myself right to sleep through classes or mess around in my laptop so long as I get good grades. That doesn't make the classes bad, just not at my current level.



> Truth is I thought I would be asked to withdraw from the class and would be given a refund, so it turned out far better than I expected.


It sure did, but I still feel a little for the teacher. It's hard to stand there and be able to answer every question. Were they ultra competent at what they teach, they wouldn't be teachers. =\



> As a charter member of _La asociación internacional de burros inteligentes_ I claim the right to be a jerk when the need arises


That's one funny title!


----------



## JosephB (Jun 8, 2011)

garza said:


> Why not? You paid your money to be taught by someone who knew more than you about the subject. That's why you signed up for the course, paid the tuition, bought the required books, and showed up for class. If the lecturer knows less than you do, what's the point of being there?
> 
> Truth is I thought I would be asked to withdraw from the class and would be given a refund, so it turned out far better than I expected.
> 
> As a charter member of _La asociación internacional de burros inteligentes_ I claim the right to be a jerk when the need arises.



 Fine. Ask for a refund. What made you a jerk is the part about constantly interrupting him after you became aware that he was less than qualified -- obviously just to show him up -- since you knew he couldn’t answer. 

The thing is though, you didn't ask for a refund. All that sounds good now when you say it -- but the school officials took it upon themselves to remove you from the class. Otherwise you probably would have gone on needling the man for the rest of the semester.  And burrow is close -- same animal -- but I have another word in mind.


----------



## ScientistAsHero (Jun 8, 2011)

JosephB said:


> The hardware and instruction was lacking at my school too -- and I complained about. But they concentrated more on design theory, the principles of effective visual communications and problem solving. The expectation was more or less that we'd have to learn the software mostly on our own -- that the technology would change anyway, so it was better to learn about what works and what doesn't. I can see the wisdom of that now, but I wasn't too happy about it at the time.
> 
> Anyway -- it all worked out well. I wish I could say it was after careful consideration and that I made the right choice -- but I went to the university in my state, it was the best value and I had some scholarship money -- so it was luck more than anything.



3d animation, which is probably about 75% of what we studied at ITT, in particular requires lots of computer horsepower and up-to-date hardware. And while there are principles and theories behind it that are independent of the programs, such as knowing the mechanics of a walk cycle, or understanding pacing in a story, for instance, the craft of 3d is pretty much entrenched in the software. Learning it is learning the programs. (Although there are different programs out there, and some core concepts are the same across the board... boolean operations, NURBS, etc.)

But you're right about design -- there's a lot more to it than just knowing how to use Photoshop, Illustrator, etc., and be able to use a camera. I've learned a lot about typography, structured color theory (not just picking two colors that look nice together), branding, and other aspects of it from my time in the field.


----------



## garza (Jun 8, 2011)

elite - This was a 400 level class for English majors, right below graduate level. At that level you should expect to have students who are prepared for advanced work, not high school pablum. 

Joe - Of course I wanted to show him up. He was not competent to teach the course. Apparently the administration realised he wasn't competent to teach any course past the 200 level because two terms later he was moved back to teaching first year composition and English 100 (Meathead English), normally handled by graduate students. He left the university while I was in graduate school. 

Let's stick with the more polite 'Burro'. Baron probably would not approve of the fully descriptive name.


----------



## elite (Jun 9, 2011)

garza said:


> elite - This was a 400 level class for English majors, right below graduate level. At that level you should expect to have students who are prepared for advanced work, not high school pablum.



I'm not too used to how American education is structured, but isn't that right before/shortly after entering university? Unless of course you were way ahead for your age, I was guessing 17 -> Senior High or College Freshman. Normally teachers at that level aren't expected to be brilliant, just know enough to follow through the program smoothly. Did other students have the same complaints you did? Did he present his material poorly?

Also, the teacher is not necessarily expected to know more than the student. Sometimes the student is simply there to prove he already knows, as what seemed to be your case. The teacher is expected to be able to teach those who don't to the point where they can take the next classes. He is expected, however, to be able to teach well, handle a classroom and be able to face a situation where he does not know the answer to a student's question. Seems like he failed at that too...

Either way, I've had my share of bad teachers; my High School's "campus" was on top of a supermarket, and most of my knowledge came from self studying. Perhaps I'm just used to it, but now I'm in one of the very best universities in Brazil and it's not much different. Had I done the same thing you did, I think more than half of my teachers would be out of commission by now. Not trying to make myself sound grand, it's just that my education was that terrible...


----------



## garza (Jun 9, 2011)

I did start a bit earlier than average. I was classed as a fourth year university student, based on accumulated hours, not years, while I was still 17. My first BA came at 18, and my second BA at 18 and a half. Anyone can do that. You just have to start early and double up on everything except sleep for a few years. You also have to love what you are studying. Had I not been classed as a fourth year student I could not have enrolled in the class. 400 level courses are for fourth year students.

That particular lecturer was not just bad, he was pathetic. He was ignorant of the subject he was supposed to teach and _he knew_ that he was ignorant. Had he been honest he would never have agreed to teach the class. 

As I mentioned before, the university administration soon came around to my way of thinking and removed him from all graduate and advanced undergraduate courses, even those in his field of study. First year English composition courses and second year literature  courses, the 100 and 200 level courses, are often taught by graduate  students. But this fellow, with his PhD, ended his time at the university teaching those lowest level classes and soon went away. He wasn't tenured, of course, so he may have been fired, or the humiliation of his position may have caused him to quit. Either way he was no loss to the university.


----------



## Dudester (Jun 9, 2011)

garza said:


> That particular lecturer was not just bad, he was pathetic. He was ignorant of the subject he was supposed to teach and _he knew_ that he was ignorant. Had he been honest he would never have agreed to teach the class.
> 
> As I mentioned before, the university administration soon came around to my way of thinking and removed him from all graduate and advanced undergraduate courses, even those in his field of study. First year English composition courses and second year literature courses, the 100 and 200 level courses, are often taught by graduate students. But this fellow, with his PhD, ended his time at the university teaching those lowest level classes and soon went away. He wasn't tenured, of course, so he may have been fired, or the humiliation of his position may have caused him to quit. Either way he was no loss to the university.




There is a TV show in the US right now that you would take pleasure in. One of the characters is a Phd, and quite learned in physics and astrophysics, but when he finally got his chance to lecture, he fell on his face because he doesn't know how to relate to people. That episode is quite funny as his students have a lot of fun at his expense. 

From second grade to fifth, I often argued with my teachers. I actually knew more, academically, than they did. The same happened in 7th with one teacher and in 8th with another teacher. That all changed from 9th and above as I went to a prestigious private school. My college teachers appreciated me as I asked questions. Most of the other kids were still in high school mode-they sat there like bumps on logs. Since someone else was paying for their education (unlike me), they really didn't care to be there. 

My one regret, is that after I left the private school, I discovered some of the students had bought their research papers. In their cases, they were going into daddy's line of work, so they just needed a diploma.


----------



## garza (Jun 9, 2011)

On any university campus there are students, often English majors, paying their way through school writing research papers, book reports, essays, and such for other students, often athletes. The writer gets a double benefit - the money to help pay tuition plus the added educational value of researching and writing on a topic he might otherwise never have been interested in. The buyer gets to keep his gpa up so he can stay on the team. The school gets the tuition from both the writer and the buyer, who is often sponsored by a wealthy alumnus who wants the school to have a winning team. The school benefits by having a winning team. Everyone is happy.

The research papers don't have to be brilliant. They need to meet minimum requirements to earn a 'C'. Such papers can be mass produced by an English or history major (I was both) accustomed to spending long hours in the library doing research.


----------



## JosephB (Jun 9, 2011)

garza said:


> On any university campus there are students, often English majors, paying their way through school writing research papers, book reports, essays, and such for other students, often athletes.



Otherwise known as cheating.


----------



## alanmt (Jun 9, 2011)

I majored in politics and public affairs, emphasizing foreign policy and sociopolitical revolution (If only I had joined the state department, this expertise would finally be useful) and minored in geology.  In law school, I studied law.


----------



## garza (Jun 9, 2011)

Joe - Who is cheated? You can believe the faculty all know what goes on. The administration won't care so long as some Nosy Parker dosen't come along and make noise. Coaches are often the middle-men between the alumni and the writers. Too often if the money goes straight to the athlete it gets blown on a beer, weed, and pizza party. Then a key player's gpa drops from 2.0 to 1.5, he's off the squad, and chances for a conference title are down the drain. 

I'm speaking of life in the late 1950's, but I will be willing to wager that the description applies today. If you don't believe me ask Tank McNamara.


----------



## ankles (Jun 9, 2011)

I graduated with a Bachelors in Partying (Sex and Rock 'n' Roll. I dropped out of Drugs; I'm no heroin(e)).

(Or maybe a BA)


----------



## garza (Jun 9, 2011)

And what years were you at the University of Southern Mississippi? I had a friend who got his MA there. His thesis had something to do with the history of serious beer guzzling. I remember one of the frat houses had a free beer and pizza night. The Hattiesburg Fire Department had to come out the next day and hose off that side of the campus.


----------



## JosephB (Jun 9, 2011)

garza said:


> Joe - Who is cheated? You can believe the faculty all know what goes on. The administration won't care so long as some Nosy Parker dosen't come along and make noise. Coaches are often the middle-men between the alumni and the writers. Too often if the money goes straight to the athlete it gets blown on a beer, weed, and pizza party. Then a key player's gpa drops from 2.0 to 1.5, he's off the squad, and chances for a conference title are down the drain.
> 
> I'm speaking of life in the late 1950's, but I will be willing to wager that the description applies today. If you don't believe me ask Tank McNamara.



So as long as everyone is in on it, it's not cheating? Right. 

Anyway, I'm sure some of that goes on. But I saw a doc on ESPN about people, mostly retirees, who's job it is to follow athletes around and make sure they go to class and do the assignments. Every program, especially the successful ones, are under a microscope these days, so while I know athletes get special treatment and help, I would doubt anything like this type of blatant cheating goes on.


----------



## BoredMormon (Jun 10, 2011)

garza said:


> The research papers don't have to be brilliant. They need to meet minimum requirements to earn a 'C'. Such papers can be mass produced by an English or history major (I was both) accustomed to spending long hours in the library doing research.



One of the great things about engineering is there is no way you can fake it. The only way to gain the knowledge required to be a chemical engineer is to do a chemical engineering degree (or some other equilvilant intensive study). No way I'd trust an english major to do one of my assignments.

In saying that lots of my work doesn't require any specific knowledge from my degree. But the instincts and thought patterns developed certianly help. I certainly wouldn't be on the same pay grade without it.


----------



## garza (Jun 10, 2011)

Joe - Maybe the situation has changed, but I doubt the retail sale of term papers has ended altogether. I never saw the baby sitters you mention. Maybe that's something that started after my time. My formal schooling ended in 1961. 

Atheletes weren't the only buyers anyway. Lots of kids are lazy, going to school on papa's dollars, and not really interested in education. Many just want to party for four years and get that piece of paper to help them land a job somewhere. I put in the effort needed to get a good education for myself and help them get that piece of paper. We both got what we wanted.

BoredMormon - Engineering majors don't need that kind of help. Many of the kids who needed papers written for them planned to be high school or college phys-ed teachers and coaches if they didn't make it to the pros.


----------



## Ashlock (Jun 19, 2011)

I'm joining college this year and would be majoring in Computer Science and Engineering.


----------



## Cran (Jun 20, 2011)

*Ashlock* - good for you.



garza said:


> Joe - Maybe the situation has changed, but I doubt the retail sale of term papers has ended altogether...



Quite the opposite; it's gone commercial. There are websites offering academic papers, assignment papers, anything the student or post-grad needs to hand in. The sites sometimes advertise for academic writers and editors (which is how I found out about them). 

My university studies were in Earth Sciences and geology; journalism I learned on the job(s).


----------



## JosephB (Jun 20, 2011)

Cran said:


> Quite the opposite; it's gone commercial. There are websites offering academic papers, assignment papers, anything the student or post-grad needs to hand in. The sites sometimes advertise for academic writers and editors (which is how I found out about them).



My sister teaches at the university level, and she says they have ways of detecting these papers. So people who buy them do it at a considerable risk -- expulsion is the usual penalty.


----------



## Candra H (Jun 20, 2011)

A strange attitude to take to an expensive university education, cheating...


----------



## JosephB (Jun 20, 2011)

Yeah -- you bet. I guess it's more the piece of paper that people want, rather than actually learning something. Oh well.


----------



## Jinxi (Jun 20, 2011)

It is very sad. I know that at a lot of South African schools and universities they drop the pass rates in order for more people to get those pieces of paper, instead of honouring those students who have in fact worked to achieve decent results.


----------



## Candra H (Jun 20, 2011)

Thats something I hear about too, Jinxi. How universities are starting to lower their pass rates rather than encouraging students to meet the existing ones. It makes me wonder what worth those pieces of paper will actually have in time.


----------



## Cran (Jun 20, 2011)

Candra H said:


> A strange attitude to take to an expensive university education, cheating...



Yes, I thought so, too. When I looked into it, I was expecting something of an editor/proofreader/tutor role - helping them to do their own research and write their own papers - and some of that kind of service does seem to be available. 

Most of it, though, can only be called cheating or plagiarism (submitting someone else's work in your own name). That such sites can offer this, openly, is a sad indictment of the system, I think. 

The expense, and the expectations, probably do a lot to encourage cheating. I believe that the push to make tertiary education more inclusive and more commercial led to this diploma mill mindset. An alarming number of traditional educators are feeling frustrated and marginalised because institutions are graded and awarded (or penalised) based on income and "throughput" (numbers passed), rather than on quality in any sense.


----------



## MEShammas (Jun 20, 2011)

Still studying. I'm majoring in Political Science with a minor in English and (if I can finish it in time) Classical Civilizations.

Although the above are all interesting subjects, getting a job with those alone would be tough, so I'm planning on Law School for now (International Law). We shall see! 

Definitely weigh whether or not college is worth it before you dive in. It is a lot of money, a lot of time, and although I've learned a lot I feel like I could have learned all of this stuff by just going to the library and reading. I like college, but I hate paying for it, though I do get a nice financial age package. 

Good luck OP!


----------



## MEShammas (Jun 20, 2011)

Candra H said:


> Thats something I hear about too, Jinxi. How universities are starting to lower their pass rates rather than encouraging students to meet the existing ones. It makes me wonder what worth those pieces of paper will actually have in time.



Colleges are getting so easy in some cases that it is just a joke. I try to get As, so it still is relatively tough, but I don't feel like I'm putting in that much work for all the benefits that come with the shiny diploma (and I definitely don't feel like many of my peers are).

For too many people, college=partying and taking the easiest classes possible in order to pass with a decent GPA. Sigh.


----------

