# No Swearing Please We`re British



## Monaque (Jan 24, 2016)

Hi
I posted on another thread about sex scenes and swearing and thought it would be interesting to ask the question in its own thread. Someone mentioned sex scenes and whether it was necessary to include them and it made me wonder about swearing. I`m currently putting the finishing touches to my thriller/crime novel, my first, and have included swearing because I thought it would add authenticity to the work, even though I don`t swear personally.

I`m wondering if your writing is good enough you could get away without using them even though your characters would normally swear in certain situations or certain characters would anyway because characters of that type always do.

Do you need swearing to add something genuine to a work or not?


Monaque


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## escorial (Jan 24, 2016)

people swear..i do..it's real life but for some reason in reading i don't get anything from it...often swearing will turn me off reading a poem,prose..ect


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## Monaque (Jan 24, 2016)

escorial said:


> people swear..i do..it's real life but for some reason in reading i don't get anything from it...often swearing will turn me off reading a poem,prose..ect



I`m kind of the other way around lol.


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## escorial (Jan 24, 2016)

Monaque said:


> I`m kind of the other way around lol.



i get that...i tend to read american literature from the earlier part of the 20th century and find the use of words are considered so wrong then are considered toxic now but this is how the world rolls with literature...


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## Riis Marshall (Jan 24, 2016)

Hello Monaque

My feeling is when you choose to write in a particular genre, if you want your work to be accepted you must write in a style that is what your readers expect.

Thus in thrillers I assume readers expect a certain amount of swearing just as they expect a certain amount of mystery, maybe a little sex, bad guys chasing good guys, guns, knives, people hitting each other and even a car chase or two. These elements are just as much a part of the genre as sex is in erotica and magical things happening is in fantasy.

The trick is to get just the right amount of swearing - and everything else, of course - in your work to make your readers want to keep reading. So, for example, in my work, some - but only a couple - of my bad guys swear a lot but not all my bad guys all the time. My hero, Os Doran, hardly ever swears.

But - and I think this is an important but - making your bad guys swear all the time doesn't turn them into really, truly bad guys. For your work to be believable, you need to develop them into well-rounded bad guys, just as page-after-page of racial rants doesn't automatically make your bad guy a racist monster.

Ditto Escorial: in real life some people swear a lot, some people swear a little and some never swear.

Great thread; let's keep it going.

All the best with your writing.

Warmest regards
Riis


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## voltigeur (Jan 24, 2016)

For me all cursing stays in quotation marks. never curse in narration.


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## midnightpoet (Jan 24, 2016)

Find balance.  An avalanche of 4-letter words may turn readers off, but too few may not be that believable.  Write your novel, use them when necessary to the scene, the plot, the character.  You can always rework things in re-write.  I've invented a few swear words, myself.  Do what is true to your characters, be consistent.  Reading published thrillers should help.  Read your genres, how do successful writers do it.


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## Monaque (Jan 24, 2016)

escorial said:


> i get that...i tend to read american literature from the earlier part of the 20th century and find the use of words are considered so wrong then are considered toxic now but this is how the world rolls with literature...



Yes, I can imagine, political correctness also playing a part in that I guess.

@ Riis - Thanks, Riis. That was exactly what I was thinking, about staying true to the real world characters no matter what they do or say. "My hero, Os Doran, hardly ever swears" - I like the sound of that guy. 

@ voltigeur - "For me all cursing stays in quotation marks. never curse in narration" - Yes, I see that. There are parts where I`ve just used the word swearing, or cursing, but in general writing. I can`t remember ever using a swear outside of speech, but I`ll keep my eye out in case.

@ midnightpoet - "Read your genres, how do successful writers do it" - Hmmm, my favourites are Rick Riordan`s Tres Navarre, and Craig Johnson`s Longmire, also Connelly. They are sparing, from what I recall, it`s there but not overtly done.


I`ll be honest and say that I have left out some swears I`m not  particularly comfortable with but think that those I have included are  sufficient to keep the characters real. I`m working through another edit  now, in readiness for a beta reading by someone I know, so I`ll keep an  eye out. I`m hoping that my beta reader will tell me if they think I`m not being real, I`m sure it will come across in a read through if that`s the case.
Thanks all.


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## Patrick (Jan 24, 2016)

I am a Christian and don't like swearing, but when I am writing a character who would swear, whether audibly or inwardly, I don't refrain from truth telling. It's a bit different if you're writing for children; you have to somehow find a way to write characters who exist in a world where swearing isn't their first response to something that surprises them, displeases them, isn't a force of habit, etc. That's quite a challenge, because people swear all the time.  I do not keep a perfect leash on my own tongue.

I certainly don't feel bad for using one of my character's swearing for comic timing. It's just a natural response of one character with a different upbringing/worldview to my own. Writers have to be allowed to imagine such people for authenticity and for real empathy; it isn't empathetic to ignore everybody's flaws, so that side of it is not really a problem for me. 

As for sex in writing, luckily I don't write erotica, but if the characters demand a love-making scene, then I think I have the skill to veil the language and use poetic techniques to avoid the vulgar or pornographic.


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## Blade (Jan 24, 2016)

Monaque said:
			
		

> I`m wondering if your writing is good enough you could get away without using them even though your characters would normally swear in certain situations or certain characters would anyway because characters of that type always do.



Are you trying to sanitize your characters to avoid offending the reader? I would think that this sort of deliberate cleansing would just add a stilted tone to the novel no matter how well written.:-k



voltigeur said:


> For me all cursing stays in quotation marks. never curse in narration.



:thumbr:


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## Winston (Jan 24, 2016)

In my life, colorful language is a spice.  Small amounts are fine, and are needed in some recipes.

However, all the seasoning in the world doesn't remove the foul taste of bad cooking.  Write well, and you've earned some narrative expletives.  
Write poorly, and you actually say them.


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## PrinzeCharming (Jan 24, 2016)

*Content warning - f bombs dropped / mature content.

C*ursing
*O*nly
*N*avigates
*T*he
*E*ngaged with
e*X*tra 
*T*hought

You need to add value to a situation when you're ready to curse. In arguments, it's expected as a natural instinct. It's out of anger and rage. Nothing should be sugarcoated. When you want to redeem yourself for cursing, attempt another scenario. 

The teacher caught herself. "_Fudge_, I meant _fudge_!" 

When it's intimate, I do it respectfully. Nobody wants a truck driver under the satin sheets. It's not erotic if it's excessive. 

She leaned over to his ear. "_Mmm_, _fuck_." Her nails penetrated further into his back. 

In addition to context, you have to deserve that right to curse from previous work (the work that lead up to cursing / the rep for your piece) or it'll look rather careless and lazy for choosing tasteless words.

*Edit: 

You can still create a sensually rewarding experience without the cursing. See this. 
*


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## cinderblock (Jan 24, 2016)

I don't care, but as with anything, it could be overdone.

But honestly, I don't care. If your book isn't interesting, I don't care that you made it "family friendly." I'm gonna stop reading it.

Swear words are words that society designates as bad. The word didn't have to be "fuck." It could've been "purfle" or "doop." It's completely arbitrary to the raising of children, Puritan values, school, etc etc.

And so we create words to substitute them like "fudge" or "darn," and they're okay, even though they mean the same fuckin thing.

Which begs the following question: What the fuck are we doing here?


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## Monaque (Jan 24, 2016)

cinderblock said:


> I don't care, but as with anything, it could be overdone.
> 
> But honestly, I don't care. If your book isn't interesting, I don't care that you made it "family friendly." I'm gonna stop reading it.
> 
> ...



Just asking a question. Perhaps I`m just trying to make sure I`m writing them for the right reasons.


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## Monaque (Jan 24, 2016)

Blade said:


> Are you trying to sanitize your characters to avoid offending the reader? I would think that this sort of deliberate cleansing would just add a stilted tone to the novel no matter how well written.:-k



Definitely not, I just wanted to make sure I was writing them in  context, that and adding value to the work not overpowering it I guess.


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## Aquilo (Jan 24, 2016)

With sex scenes, it depends. Erotica: yes. There's more focus on the act than on the story line. Erotic Romance: maybe. Erotic romance deals with a multitude of sub-genres, so you can have high heat levels in a thriller (full-on sex), then a zero sex scene count with, say, the likes of steampunk. Erotic romance is plot driven, with romance intermingled. Romance: no. You don't have to sex at all. 

With any other genre... it's entirely up to you. I loved James Herbert's _Domain_ and how a couple out for nookie in the woods had their bits nibbled on. Meh, the woman was cheating... 

I write Erotic psych thriller romance, and in the novel that's just gone live, I had only two sex scenes in 126,000 words. Was there swearing? Of course. One of my MC's goes black and blue with morphological inventiveness on "fuck" and "you". I'm not a fan at all of purple prose when it comes to sex either, so no dancing about with euphemisms.   

It just depends what your style is. But just one piece of advice: write for yourself first, think about audience afterwards. If I'd have followed half the guidelines most romance publishers set out, I wouldn't have been published.


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## LeeC (Jan 24, 2016)

I'm of a mind where I believe the use of "sex scenes" and swearing in writing for titillation/shock effect indicates a lack of writing skill. On the other hand, if one is catering to a major segment of the reading audience, it's pretty much the way to go.

More specifically, to me veiled sex scenes and foul language in moderation are a tool of the wordsmith only where they add depth of character and immersion in the story. As an example of what I'm saying:


Snippet from Calan's Eden by L. G. Cullens

Tonight we both arrive home together, have a quick supper, and wash dishes. Tired to the bone I plop down in my easy-chair, while Kay switches on the stereo and curls up in my lap. I'm feeling really relaxed when she gets up saying she'll be back in a minute. I hear the shower running, then she comes back, drops her towel, and curls up with me again. We cuddle a little as I drift off to sleep. I'm so lucky to have met this woman.

What the heck, sputter sput, I'm all wet and there are ice-cubes in my lap. Kay's standing in front of me with a glass in hand. I raise my arms in a questioning gesture as she slams the glass down on the counter and stomps off to bed. I guess that's why the gender distinction is pronounced woe-men.


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## cinderblock (Jan 24, 2016)

LeeC said:


> I'm of a mind where I believe the use of "sex scenes" and swearing in writing for titillation/shock effect indicates a lack of writing skill. On the other hand, if one is catering to a major segment of the reading audience, it's pretty much the way to go.
> 
> More specifically, to me veiled sex scenes and foul language in moderation are a tool of the wordsmith only where they add depth of character and immersion in the story. As an example of what I'm saying:
> 
> ...



Are you sure they had sex? It sounds to me like he fell asleep, and the woman got angry for showering and getting ready for nothing, and so she doused him in ice cubes/alcohol.

Charles Bukowski had a funny rebuttal in Factotum, where he says something to the effect of, "Why can't you just say he fucked her?"


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## LeeC (Jan 25, 2016)

Well cinderblock, let me see if I can answer your question. 

When discussing sex scenes there's always the Clintonesque of "how do you define sex?" And as far as Charles Bukowski, that's probably one reason I've never heard of him. 

The point of my above post is that relative to the use of sex scenes and swearing in writing for titillation/shock effect, to me it indicates an author lacking wordsmith skills and/or catering to the large like minded crowd laking in cognitive maturity. This is mostly a writing community trying to help each other improve. 

I think it's sad that so many use crudeness to try to be noticed. They don't realize that among other than their peers/other like minded people it has a negative affect.


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## Monaque (Jan 25, 2016)

LeeC said:


> I'm of a mind where I believe the use of "sex scenes" and swearing in writing for titillation/shock effect indicates a lack of writing skill. On the other hand, if one is catering to a major segment of the reading audience, it's pretty much the way to go.
> 
> More specifically, to me veiled sex scenes and foul language in moderation are a tool of the wordsmith only where they add depth of character and immersion in the story. As an example of what I'm saying:
> 
> ...



I get what you are saying and there are tasteful ways of showing sex without splattering it on the page, if you forgive the phrase, but it also depends on the genre doesn`t it. I am writing a thriller and it never even gets close to sex.


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## LeeC (Jan 25, 2016)

Monaque said:


> I get what you are saying and there are tasteful ways of showing sex without splattering it on the page, if you forgive the phrase, but it also depends on the genre doesn`t it. I am writing a thriller and it never even gets close to sex.


Very much so, but to me still depends on the author's wordsmith skills and the "audience" it's directed at. Take for example "Summer of '42" by  Herman Raucher (actually written in post-production of the movie to help publicize the movie), in which such enhanced characterization and the immersing real life quality of the story to me. 

Narrowing in on your original question, I feel the same way about profanity in a story. Sprinkle it in where it enhances characterization and brings out the story better, but beyond that to me is indicative of cognitive immaturity either on the author's part or that being the intended audience. An example here is Elmore Leonard's writing, which for the most part I find quite good. Reading extensively over nigh on three quarters of a century, I've seen a fair deal of here today gone tomorrow junk versus writing that has a life of its own. You'll find a little profanity in my own book because that's real life -- like when I drop a piece of firewood on my toes. 

Thinking of Elmore Leonard brings to mind another pet peeve I'll bore you with. Too much writing by inexperienced authors tends more to impressing themselves than portraying a story with the written word, whether in dictating visualization (as like minutely describing a movie scene -- allow the reader to use their own mind's eye to immerse them in the story) or in verbosity (usually a combination). Mind you I didn't see this aspect in my own writing till some "old hats" here pointed it out -- it's not easy to put oneself in the reader's shoes ;-)


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## Patrick (Jan 25, 2016)

LeeC said:


> Thinking of Elmore Leonard brings to mind another pet peeve I'll bore you with. Too much writing by inexperienced authors tends more to impressing themselves than portraying a story with the written word, whether in dictating visualization (as like minutely describing a movie scene -- *allow the reader to use their own mind's eye to immerse them in the story*) or in verbosity (usually a combination). Mind you I didn't see this aspect in my own writing till some "old hats" here pointed it out -- it's not easy to put oneself in the reader's shoes ;-)



How else would they immerse themselves in the story?

How descriptive a writer is remains an issue of style; all that matters is whether it's good or not. Allow nobody to fool you that minimalism is somehow inherently virtuous. If that's how you like to write, write that way, but someone like John Banville, who writes very dense descriptive books, is very far from inexperienced. I read all sorts of literature, and I use techniques from all over the place (I believe in rising above the constraints of a particular style), but I naturally lean towards a more descriptive style than minimalist.


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## Monaque (Jan 25, 2016)

I guess I agree with both of you. Someone once said that every word must count, not that you could possibly look at every single word with a view to asking if it absolutely has to be there, you would be there for years in edit. But I do think that in general the words have to have a purpose. It is also true that many people love to read very descriptive prose, and Fantasy authors in particular tend to write like that. I don`t think I`ve read a fantasy author yet who doesn`t spend long parts of chapters world building. I am also like Patrick, and veer towards the descriptive, in most cases a little too much, having to cut back afterwards. 
It`s a balance isn`t it? Or is it that you, as a writer, simply know how you want to write, and that fuels your style, whatever that may be.

I`ve never been a great fan of Leonard, preferring Rick Riordan`s Tres Navarre character, or Connelly. 
And I still think that you have to write to your character.


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## Winston (Jan 25, 2016)

Just a quick BTW:  I was chided here a while back while writing a "time-tripping British veteran of the Boer War" dialog.

The character was very upset at his reality constantly shifting (ala Vonnegut) and uttered the expletive "bloody".

Turns out that (some) folks in The Empire find that word highly offensive.  Vulgarity can be culturally specific.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Jan 25, 2016)

Watch many movies from the 60s and earlier, and there will be almost no swearing.  And guess what? Somehow, they still managed to become classics.  Somehow, an engaging story was still told.  Somehow, it worked.

I've said it before, and I'll stand by it: swearing is a crutch.  It's a shortcut to emotion and realism that is simply unnecessary.  We're drawn to stories because we connect with them, and that connection happens on a deeper level than profanity in dialogue.  Swearing may be "real" as far as that some people do it in real life, but what's realer - and more engaging - is theme.  Love and loss, triumph and defeat, friendship and betrayal - these are the things that engage the reader.  Swearing does not.

Incidentally, I've had several people read my novel, and in the 150,000 words of it, there were perhaps a dozen mild curses (ones that will be removed in the next draft).  No one asked for more.  No one said, "This isn't real enough."  And the one time I did try a stronger word because a character was particularly angry, the only response was, "It sounds like the character is using the word because that's what's expected in that situation, rather than because it's something he would do."  I don't need profanity in my story, and neither does any other author.


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## Joe_Bassett (Jan 25, 2016)

Teenagers swear. A lot. At least most of the ones I know. I swear a lot too. 
 I use swear words when they're realistically part of the dialogue.  I'm not too concerned if people get offended. And honestly, there are sometimes where you just have to drop a curse word or two, like when getting your hand caught in a jeep door.  it freaking hurts!!


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## Patrick (Jan 25, 2016)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> Watch many movies from the 60s and earlier, and there will be almost no swearing.  And guess what? Somehow, they still managed to become classics.  Somehow, an engaging story was still told.  Somehow, it worked.
> 
> I've said it before, and I'll stand by it: swearing is a crutch.  It's a shortcut to emotion and realism that is simply unnecessary.  We're drawn to stories because we connect with them, and that connection happens on a deeper level than profanity in dialogue.  Swearing may be "real" as far as that some people do it in real life, but what's realer - and more engaging - is theme.  Love and loss, triumph and defeat, friendship and betrayal - these are the things that engage the reader.  Swearing does not.
> 
> Incidentally, I've had several people read my novel, and in the 150,000 words of it, there were perhaps a dozen mild curses (ones that will be removed in the next draft).  No one asked for more.  No one said, "This isn't real enough."  And the one time I did try a stronger word because a character was particularly angry, the only response was, "It sounds like the character is using the word because that's what's expected in that situation, rather than because it's something he would do."  I don't need profanity in my story, and neither does any other author.



There are some contexts where a character I am writing should absolutely swear, and in cases like that, I feel it's contrived to remove the swear word, which i have done many times before. I think it's for the individual author to decide how comfortable he is with the inclusion of swearing.  Anybody who is simply reveling in vulgarity will greatly reduce his potential readership.

You could not, for example, write about a character who lives on a council estate in any modern-English setting and provide any social commentary that would resonate with a young person reading your work somewhere in a council estate if you were to omit all the grimmer realities of such a setting. At some point, you're going to have to write honestly and with a love that confronts the problems rather than glosses over them...


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## Aquilo (Jan 25, 2016)

LeeC said:


> Well cinderblock, let me see if I can answer your question.
> 
> When discussing sex scenes there's always the Clintonesque of "how do you define sex?" And as far as Charles Bukowski, that's probably one reason I've never heard of him.
> 
> ...



Usually if you write sex scenes for titillation in Erotic Romance, Romance, or any other genre, you get laughed out the genre. That's not what the writing is about, and to be honest it rears up the old stereotypical misconception that some writers think they're better than others just because they don't include sex. Bare bones is, if you can't write and sell a work without sex in it,  you're not going to write and suddenly start selling a work just by tossing a few  sex scenes in either. You need to know how to write, and that's  universal across all genres and registers.



> This is mostly a writing community trying to help each other improve.



Nobody here would say insert a sex scene for the kicks. They're saying "people swear, they get laid, they live their life in tune with thriller, horror, steampunk, or historical plot line and setting, but how much tuning you do with any of those elements comes down to three things: plot, character, pace. If you mess up any of those with sexual content, don't put it in."


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## Bishop (Jan 26, 2016)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> Watch many movies from the 60s and earlier, and there will be almost no swearing.  And guess what? Somehow, they still managed to become classics.  Somehow, an engaging story was still told.  Somehow, it worked.



As a fan of classic movies, I can agree with your statement, but not your premise. They would be no less classic, but infinitely more realistic, if the language had not been sanitized. Do we need Tarantino levels of cursing? Obviously not. But when the villain is thwarted and he says, "Curse you!" we know what he really would have said. And making him sound like Snidely Whiplash just treats me like a Beaver Cleaver, and I really don't care for that. I'm an adult. These are the words that adults use to express anger, rage, frustration. Different types use different words. Sailors speak differently than schoolteachers, and trying to portray it otherwise just makes me roll my eyes.



Gamer_2k4 said:


> I've said it before, and I'll stand by it: swearing is a crutch.  It's a shortcut to emotion and realism that is simply unnecessary.  We're drawn to stories because we connect with them, and that connection happens on a deeper level than profanity in dialogue.  Swearing may be "real" as far as that some people do it in real life, but what's realer - and more engaging - is theme.  Love and loss, triumph and defeat, friendship and betrayal - these are the things that engage the reader.  Swearing does not.



It's not a crutch. It's not there to show character emotion or try and force a connection. It's there, in dialogue, because that's what the character would say in that situation. A husband walking in on his wife cheating doesn't say, "Oh, sassafras! You're boinking my best friend! Oh, ninny hammer, how will I get out of this pickle?"

Do not lie to your readers. If you substitute curse words, they'll notice. Some may appreciate it, and some may not. But everyone will know you're sanitizing your work, and it becomes that much less authentic. Realism, for fiction, is like turning a dial on the thermostat. You have to find the setting you're comfortable with. But don't try and claim authors who turn their dials up higher than you are using some form of 'crutch'. Because until my uncle stops swearing, I refuse to buy it when characters don't.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Jan 26, 2016)

Bishop said:


> It's not a crutch. It's not there to show character emotion or try and force a connection. It's there, in dialogue, because that's what the character would say in that situation. A husband walking in on his wife cheating doesn't say, "Oh, sassafras! You're boinking my best friend! Oh, ninny hammer, how will I get out of this pickle?"
> 
> Do not lie to your readers. If you substitute curse words, they'll notice. Some may appreciate it, and some may not. But everyone will know you're sanitizing your work, and it becomes that much less authentic. Realism, for fiction, is like turning a dial on the thermostat. You have to find the setting you're comfortable with. But don't try and claim authors who turn their dials up higher than you are using some form of 'crutch'. Because until my uncle stops swearing, I refuse to buy it when characters don't.



It's not a substitution, though - not unless you're a total amateur.  Of course it's going to look ridiculous if a character calls another character a "marshmallow fudger," but that's not what I'm talking about.  Consider this interpretation of your cheating scene:

_But rather than his wife, someone else was in the bed: Harold's coworker, Dave.
"Harold!" Dave gulped.  "I didn't expect - you weren't supposed to -"
Harold stormed into the room.  Dave cowered, pulling the covers up to his chin, but Harold wasn't looking at him.  "Mary!" Harold roared.  "Mary, where are you?"
"I can explain, Harold," Mary stammered as she emerged from the attached bathroom.  "Dave was just - "
"Stop."  Mary gulped off her sentence.  "I will be back in fifteen minutes.  When I return, I want him," Harold thrust a finger toward Dave, though his eyes remained fixed on Mary's, "gone, and I want you dressed and waiting at the kitchen table.  Then, and only then, will you explain."_

The usual disclaimer of it being a "first draft" and off the top of my head applies, but I don't think it sounds forced or censored at all without cursing.  That's why I say profanity is a crutch.  It's so simple to just throw it into dialogue ("well, he's mad, so he's going to swear"), when there are likely to be far better ways of conveying the emotion.  It's the ultimate example of telling rather than showing.


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## Bishop (Jan 26, 2016)

See, to me, that character sounds far too put-together and logical about the situation he just uncovered. I'd expect a hitman to respond to his wife cheating that way.

"In fifteen minutes, I want him gone, and you dressed and in the kitchen."

Cool, collected, and probably going to murder both of them before the night is through. It's too at-ease, too peaceful, too placid for the situation. I don't believe his blood is boiling, I don't feel like he was betrayed, I feel like he was slightly inconvenienced. Does he need to go off on a tirade of sailor's swear words? No. But it says something about his character, what he says. It doesn't just say "he's been betrayed", but the vocabulary that he uses in these situations tells us so much more about his character. Why would I want to read a story where every character has the same muted vocabulary that doesn't properly convey their personality, but instead conveys only the textbook emotion? How would a stock broker react to this situation compared to a man on unemployment? How about a sailor coming home from sea? How does someone react to his wife cheating when he's been cheating also? They're all going to have very differing reactions, all of them with different vocabulary. But I doubt any of them well be entirely without some cursing or degradation. I just wouldn't believe it if it didn't.

There's a reason books, movies, and TV are all beginning to incorporate more cursing, there's a reason HBO TV shows are held in so much higher acclaim than an average sitcom. They show a more realistic world when they include the parts that might make you uncomfortable. Very uncomfortable, in fact, and that's the basest human instinct--if something makes you hurt or uncomfortable, you think it's bad. A natural fear reaction that writers can use to illustrate tonality of theme and the depth of certain truths of reality. You're not doing your audience any favors by shielding them. Treating them like children denotes they're not able to handle big-boy words and themes. And that's fine if your target audience is younger people, or if your story just doesn't include situations that would call on these moments... but to ignore them entirely is censorship. Self-censorship is just as damning as real censorship because, as history proves, when you bottle up or repress things like cursing, sexuality, violence... you make it taboo, and it becomes ten times worse. Soon, you're banning classic books for usage of certain words, or banning the Scarlet Letter because of its minor sexual themes *instead *of its God-awful writing.


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## Patrick (Jan 26, 2016)

I've just got a montage of Nicolas Cage ranting in various movies going through my mind.


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## Monaque (Jan 26, 2016)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> I've said it before, and I'll stand by it: swearing is a crutch.  It's a shortcut to emotion and realism that is simply unnecessary.  We're drawn to stories because we connect with them, and that connection happens on a deeper level than profanity in dialogue.  Swearing may be "real" as far as that some people do it in real life, but what's realer - and more engaging - is theme.  Love and loss, triumph and defeat, friendship and betrayal - these are the things that engage the reader.  Swearing does not.
> 
> Incidentally, I've had several people read my novel, and in the 150,000 words of it, there were perhaps a dozen mild curses (ones that will be removed in the next draft).  No one asked for more.  No one said, "This isn't real enough."  And the one time I did try a stronger word because a character was particularly angry, the only response was, "It sounds like the character is using the word because that's what's expected in that situation, rather than because it's something he would do."  I don't need profanity in my story, and neither does any other author.



I don`t see it as a crutch. In the many books I`ve read there are only a few that have included swearing that I thought didn`t fit. Even in The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo and Cuckoo`s Calling, both of which included a huge amount of swearing, it never felt misplaced.
Perhaps I`m just used to hearing people swear a lot, or maybe it`s your background that makes swearing feel either natural or forced. And I`m saying that as a person who never swears, the worst thing I say is crap.
Perhaps it just depends on your perspective.


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## Monaque (Jan 26, 2016)

Patrick said:


> I've just got a montage of Nicolas Cage ranting in various movies going through my mind.


Now I can see the guy, he just has a way of doing that.


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## Patrick (Jan 26, 2016)

If you read Hilary Mantel's books, she presents her characters in a very earthy way. It's admirable. If you listen to her in interviews, you think, how can this little polite lady present such robust men in Thomas Cromwell's household so well. It's not offensive because it really does capture what men can be like.


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## Monaque (Jan 26, 2016)

Bishop said:


> making him sound like Snidely Whiplash just treats me like a Beaver Cleaver


Um, that just went right over my head. :distant:


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## Aquilo (Jan 26, 2016)

Bishop said:


> I'd expect a hitman to respond to his wife cheating that way.
> 
> "In fifteen minutes, I want him gone, and you dressed and in the kitchen.".



Perfect! I'd love that dynamic; the draws there in how character & plot define and illustrate each other. 


> You're not doing your audience any favors by shielding them. Treating  them like children denotes they're not able to handle big-boy words and  themes.



Precisely. It's not a matter of lowering tone and language usage, it's knowing your audience and not treating them with kid gloves. Get it wrong, they won't treat you with kid gloves.


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## Bishop (Jan 26, 2016)

Monaque said:


> Um, that just went right over my head. :distant:



Snidely Whiplash:







Beaver Cleaver:


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## bdcharles (Jan 26, 2016)

Monaque said:


> Hi
> I posted on another thread about sex scenes and swearing and thought it would be interesting to ask the question in its own thread. Someone mentioned sex scenes and whether it was necessary to include them and it made me wonder about swearing. I`m currently putting the finishing touches to my thriller/crime novel, my first, and have included swearing because I thought it would add authenticity to the work, even though I don`t swear personally.
> 
> I`m wondering if your writing is good enough you could get away without using them even though your characters would normally swear in certain situations or certain characters would anyway because characters of that type always do.
> ...



Necessary? In my view it all depends on the story and the readership. If the story commands sex scenes, or if a sex scene can help in some way, then that's what the writer ought to aim for, implicit or otherwise. If a character swears, if that's their voice, then they swear. In the case of, say, a YA novel, these things may need a little more deft and subtle handling but basically, there need be no limits as long as it's readable (ie not over the top, not "in the wrong place", etc).


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## Gamer_2k4 (Jan 26, 2016)

Bishop said:


> See, to me, that character sounds far too put-together and logical about the situation he just uncovered. I'd expect a hitman to respond to his wife cheating that way.
> 
> "In fifteen minutes, I want him gone, and you dressed and in the kitchen."
> 
> Cool, collected, and probably going to murder both of them before the night is through. It's too at-ease, too peaceful, too placid for the situation. I don't believe his blood is boiling, I don't feel like he was betrayed, I feel like he was slightly inconvenienced. Does he need to go off on a tirade of sailor's swear words? No. But it says something about his character, what he says. It doesn't just say "he's been betrayed", but the vocabulary that he uses in these situations tells us so much more about his character. Why would I want to read a story where every character has the same muted vocabulary that doesn't properly convey their personality, but instead conveys only the textbook emotion? How would a stock broker react to this situation compared to a man on unemployment? How about a sailor coming home from sea? How does someone react to his wife cheating when he's been cheating also? They're all going to have very differing reactions, all of them with different vocabulary. But I doubt any of them well be entirely without some cursing or degradation. I just wouldn't believe it if it didn't.



I write what I know.  I don't swear and I don't yell, because if I'm doing either, it means I don't trust myself to communicate in a clearer manner.  And honestly, if I walked in on my wife cheating, I don't think I'd be angry as much as I'd feel stunned and betrayed.  I'd be hit too hard to feel anything immediately, particularly something as purely reactive as rage.  That's a loss of control, and I don't like that.

And perhaps that's my "problem," if you will, with regard to writing.  In the thread about feeling remorse for what you write, you've got people saying, "Well I write about murderers, so of course there's going to be killing."  If that's what someone chooses to write about, fine, just like it's on them if they choose to write the kind of character that can't get through a sentence without a dozen curse words.  But I'm firmly of the opinion that a good story can be told without that coarseness, because I've seen it over and over again.


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## Patrick (Jan 26, 2016)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> *I write what I know.  I don't swear and I don't yell, because if I'm doing either, it means I don't trust myself to communicate in a clearer manner.  And honestly, if I walked in on my wife cheating, I don't think I'd be angry as much as I'd feel stunned and betrayed.  I'd be hit too hard to feel anything immediately, particularly something as purely reactive as rage.  That's a loss of control, and I don't like that.*
> 
> And perhaps that's my "problem," if you will, with regard to writing.  In the thread about feeling remorse for what you write, you've got people saying, "Well I write about murderers, so of course there's going to be killing."  If that's what someone chooses to write about, fine, just like it's on them if they choose to write the kind of character that can't get through a sentence without a dozen curse words.  But I'm firmly of the opinion that a good story can be told without that coarseness, because I've seen it over and over again.



You're not alone, and I don't write many characters who swear at all, let alone frequently, and certainly good novels can be written without coarseness. What's most important is sincerity, so writing for shock value is unacceptable, in my opinion.

But not every single character I write ends up being like me or an outlet for my own worldview...


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## Ariel (Jan 26, 2016)

The fact that one can hold their writing to certain "moral" or ethical standards or not doesn't have any bearing on whether the writing is good or whether it has some intrinsic worth.

Anger and cursing out of anger are not a failure to communicate but rather communicating in a very effective medium.  Anger, frustration, and other "negative" emotions are all valid emotions.  Expressing such through one's writing isn't bad writing or worthless writing.  It is, I would argue, necessary.  

Writing and art should be a mirror that we hold up to the world so that others can see and experience (vicariously) the depth and range of human emotion and experience.  If you can't elicit or identify with such emotion then I would suggest you're doing this whole human thing wrong.  Also, seek professional medical help you sociopath.


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## Kyle R (Jan 26, 2016)

Some people hate violence and feel it should never be in a story. Some people love it and want more, more, more! Some people are okay with it either way.

The same goes with romance. Some pull their hair out at the first hint of it. Some hungrily seek it, like moths to a flame. Others, still, just shrug at it in whatever form it appears.

It's the same with swearing, or sex, or description, or action, or . . . _anything_, really. You'll always have people who love it, hate it, or anywhere in between. There doesn't seem to be any correct amount—it pretty much boils down to personal preference (like most everything in writing, it seems).

So I say just go with what you, the writer, prefer—and let the chips fall where they may. :encouragement:


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## Gamer_2k4 (Jan 26, 2016)

amsawtell said:


> Anger and cursing out of anger are not a failure to communicate but rather communicating in a very effective medium.



Really? If the only way for someone to tell that you're angry is you dropping an F-bomb, I think that's fairly clear evidence that you can't communicate effectively (whether it's body language or anything else).  As I said before, it's the ultimate "tell."



amsawtell said:


> Writing and art should be a mirror that we hold up to the world so that others can see and experience (vicariously) the depth and range of human emotion and experience.  If you can't elicit or identify with such emotion then I would suggest you're doing this whole human thing wrong.  Also, seek professional medical help you sociopath.



I never said emotion shouldn't be in stories; I simply said swearing is a lazy way of conveying it, and there are other methods that are just as effective (or more).  The fact that I personally try not to let things anger me is irrelevant.


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## Ariel (Jan 26, 2016)

You, personally, may not drop f-bombs when angry but plenty of other people do.  It _is_ an effective way of displaying anger or it wouldn't be used in real life _all the time_.

My grandmother was a lady.  The first time I heard her curse I was an adult in college.  I was over, visiting her and she was chopping vegetables for dinner while I cleared the table.  I heard, very quietly, my grandmother mutter "shit."  I said, "what was that?"

She very brightly answered, "nothing." And we both went back to what we were doing.  A few seconds later I heard her mutter, "shit" again.  I said, "grandma, I heard you.  You said 'shit.'"

Guess what my grandmother said.

She said, "oh grow up.  Everyone curses sometimes."


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## Bishop (Jan 26, 2016)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> I write what I know.  I don't swear and I don't yell, because if I'm doing either, it means I don't trust myself to communicate in a clearer manner.  And honestly, if I walked in on my wife cheating, I don't think I'd be angry as much as I'd feel stunned and betrayed.  I'd be hit too hard to feel anything immediately, particularly something as purely reactive as rage.  That's a loss of control, and I don't like that.



And this is the problem. Your characters are _not _you. Gather any ten people from all over the globe into a room and I'd bet 2:1 odds against that half of them or more curse regularly in situations of stress or rage. Your characters should, in many ways, be a reflection of yourself, but I would urge you to push farther to diversify them. I myself realized recently that none of my characters have/want children (at least not in the context of my novels), a reflection of my own aversion to the idea of having kids. I found that to be a very gaping hole in the humanity of my characters. I had written dozens of them with so little mention of children that it was dizzying to me. In my latest, I push myself to write children, to try and expand my ability and character base. 



Gamer_2k4 said:


> And perhaps that's my "problem," if you will, with regard to writing.  In the thread about feeling remorse for what you write, you've got people saying, "Well I write about murderers, so of course there's going to be killing."  If that's what someone chooses to write about, fine, just like it's on them if they choose to write the kind of character that can't get through a sentence without a dozen curse words.  But I'm firmly of the opinion that a good story can be told without that coarseness, because I've seen it over and over again.



Sure, it can. But I'd argue a better one can be told *with* it, at least in some degree. That isn't to say you have to directly say an F-bomb. Take a look at how the TV show "Firefly" handled cursing. When it was time to say a word they knew wouldn't get past network censors, they had their character "curse" in Chinese, since it was a bilingual culture. No one was offended, but we still get the point that they're saying something brash in their moments of strife, making us believe the characters more than if every rough moment had them saying "curses" or "dang". 



Gamer_2k4 said:


> Really? If the only way for someone to tell that you're angry is you dropping an F-bomb, I think that's fairly clear evidence that you can't communicate effectively (whether it's body language or anything else).  As I said before, it's the ultimate "tell."



No. It's not. It's evidence that the _*character *_communicates that way. A character's dialogue is representative of the character, not the author's vocabulary. Not only that, great writers often argue that short, to the point vocabulary is far more effective in writing than more lengthy ways. I believe it was Stephen King who argued never to use a fifty-cent word when a five cent word works just as well.



Gamer_2k4 said:


> I never said emotion shouldn't be in stories; I simply said swearing is a lazy way of conveying it, and there are other methods that are just as effective (or more).  The fact that I personally try not to let things anger me is irrelevant.



Lazy? No. True to the character? Yes. Mobsters don't say "Curses, foiled again!" when they get busted by an undercover cop. They call them fucking rat bastards. It's what the character does. Would a priest say that? Hell no. Would a soccer mom? Probably not. But if you're not true to what the character would say in that situation, you're being far worse than lazy, you're being cowardly. Afraid to tell the truth of the situation, afraid to show your audience what's real. Schindler's List is a landmark film, because it showed (in literal black and white) _exactly_ what happened during the holocaust. Anything less than that would have been a lie.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Jan 26, 2016)

amsawtell said:


> You, personally, may not drop f-bombs when angry but plenty of other people do.  It _is_ an effective way of displaying anger or it wouldn't be used in real life _all the time_.



Should we say "um" is an effective way of communicating because of how often people use it in real life?


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## Ariel (Jan 26, 2016)

For communicating the need for time to think, insecurity, or a loss for words displayed by a person or character?  Yes.  It displays such things perfectly.


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## Bishop (Jan 26, 2016)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> Should we say "um" is an effective way of communicating because of how often people use it in real life?



Sure. I use it in my books a lot. And when it's a bit longer of a pause I have them say "uhm" or "uhh..." because if someone's actually in a position where they're trying to recall information or they're nervous to answer, you bet that's what they'd do.


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## Ariel (Jan 26, 2016)

Further, displaying a character's dialogue is rarely considered "telling."  The same applies to writing out thoughts. Both are showing especially in less formal writing.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Jan 26, 2016)

amsawtell said:


> For communicating the need for time to think, insecurity, or a loss for words displayed by a person or character?  Yes.  It displays such things perfectly.



Oh no you don't.  You said "if swearing wasn't effective, people wouldn't do it *in real life*."  If we're talking about writing, great.  If we're talking about reality, great.  But be clear on which you're arguing.



Bishop said:


> Sure. I use it in my books a lot. And when it's a bit longer of a pause I have them say "uhm" or "uhh..." because if someone's actually in a position where they're trying to recall information or they're nervous to answer, you bet that's what they'd do.



As I said above, the debate has turned to something other than it was originally.  You two are (now) talking about portraying a character that communicates poorly, while I was talking about the communication itself.  Yes, anything goes in dialogue, and characters aren't necessarily going to be the wordsmiths we writers like to think we are.  And as I said in a previous post, if you want to write a character who's bad at getting his point across, that's your choice.  That hardly means that swearing itself is ever the best option.


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## Ariel (Jan 27, 2016)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> Oh no you don't.  You said "if swearing wasn't effective, people wouldn't do it *in real life*."  If we're talking about writing, great.  If we're talking about reality, great.  But be clear on which you're arguing.
> 
> 
> 
> As I said above, the debate has turned to something other than it was originally.  You two are (now) talking about portraying a character that communicates poorly, while I was talking about the communication itself.  Yes, anything goes in dialogue, and characters aren't necessarily going to be the wordsmiths we writers like to think we are.  And as I said in a previous post, if you want to write a character who's bad at getting his point across, that's your choice.  That hardly means that swearing itself is ever the best option.



Art imitates life.  I'll say that it goes in both.  Swearing is effective.  If I started swearing in this post it would communicate frustration and anger, wouldn't it--even if I never said "I'm frustrated."  That's real life and gets the point across, see?  If I were writing about an incident in which a character became frustrated and started cursing then it would get the point across as well.


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## bdcharles (Jan 27, 2016)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> Really? If the only way for someone to tell that you're angry is you dropping an F-bomb, I think that's fairly clear evidence that you can't communicate effectively (whether it's body language or anything else).  As I said before, it's the ultimate "tell."



But what if the character doing the swearing is a thuggish, uneducated poor communicator? What if the plot demands that he be that way in order for it to be an effective and convincing story? Of course you yourself may not want to write in that genre, which is fine - I write plenty that is decidedly genteel, and I love doing it - but many do; sometimes I want my characters to "lose control" as you put it and, again, it is sometimes necessary that they do so, otherwise the subsequent hundred pages wouldn't make sense. Swearing is a tool, and if you want to convey sweary characters convincingly, one will struggle to do without it, I'd imagine.


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## Deleted member 59123 (Jan 27, 2016)

0-50-70969898438410-=-5=50=3


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## Bishop (Jan 27, 2016)

SonicShane97 said:


> With regards to swearing, you can always just resort to "Alex swore under his breath" instead of "Fuck!" Cried Alex.
> Perhaps leave it up to the reader's imagination?



Again, the issue here is that you're self-censoring and treating your audience like they're not mature enough to handle adult words.


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## Ultraroel (Jan 27, 2016)

I find the discussion a bit hard. In some cases it might be useful to curse, in others not. In the end it comes down to your writing style. 
The discussion whether "Alex swore under his breath"  or "Fuck" Cried Alex seems a bit silly. Both convey the frustration more than clear. it's your own choice how to deal with the actual swearing and how you feel this will influence the character. For every situation you can convey the message in both senses and as  representation on the character, it can be conveyed as well with or without the actual swearing. 

It's a simple choice you make when you start writing and is for every person to decide upon themselves. 

The discussion is based on perspective and will be an unending discussion in my opinion.


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## bdcharles (Jan 27, 2016)

Ultraroel said:


> I find the discussion a bit hard. In some cases it might be useful to curse, in others not. In the end it comes down to your writing style.
> The discussion whether "Alex swore under his breath"  or "Fuck" Cried Alex seems a bit silly. Both convey the frustration more than clear. it's your own choice how to deal with the actual swearing and how you feel this will influence the character. For every situation you can convey the message in both senses and as  representation on the character, it can be conveyed as well with or without the actual swearing.
> 
> It's a simple choice you make when you start writing and is for every person to decide upon themselves.
> ...



Much hinges on the target audience too I think. Personally, for me, I find active swearing a good device for getting up close and personal with a key character's POV, where you want to show some marked change in behaviour in that person, such as a loss of temper. If, however, every background character and their dog was swearing, that would get rather silly, unless it was used for comedic effect or some other thing.


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## Terry D (Jan 27, 2016)

I don't decide if my characters are going to swear or not, they do.


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## Monaque (Jan 27, 2016)

Bishop said:


> Sure. I use it in my books a lot. And when it's a bit longer of a pause I have them say "uhm" or "uhh..." because if someone's actually in a position where they're trying to recall information or they're nervous to answer, you bet that's what they'd do.


I said "um", in an earlier post, I don`t think that was misplaced. It is a word very often used. We have a saying over in this country, it goes, "it`s all grist to the mill". Everything has a value in depicting human life, the good, the bad, and the downright ugly.
Personally, with regard to swearing, I agree that it`s probably down to perspective and your writing style in the end.


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## JP-Clyde (Jan 27, 2016)

Words only have the meaning and power you give them. You have the ability to define them other than just vulgar language. It's silly to simply define a curse word as just negative. Warning a few curse words down below:

Fuck, could be to fuck, this is a fucked situation, to be angry, to show discontent with an individual.

As well, as some other words. In my more native tongue, a Faggot is a cigarette. 

Gay use to mean happy and now it means a person who is homosexual.

As writers we are Word Wizards. We have the ability to change, but also use many words in many different ways. If used right, I don't think a reader should or would mind.


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## davebroward (Jan 27, 2016)

Well, I have read the entries so far regarding sex and swearing in literature and it is as some have said a genre decision. Who are you writing for and don't forget will it sell on today's market? A lot of people love to read sensual novels with a lot of sex and so forth and some are into cussing like sailors while others don't care for one or the other and still others like neither. Catch 22. Write for yourself or the public. If for yourself then it doesn't matter a lick but if it is for the public then find your niche in what's popular so to speak and have at it. In conclusion, it is a matter of personal preference and a decision only you can make for yourself. I wish you great success.


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