# Where to start - short stories or novel?



## PiP (Aug 12, 2018)

I was reading an interesting article this morning by New York Book Editors, HOW WRITING SHORT STORIES CAN HELP YOU BECOME A BETTER NOVELIST, and wondered how many WF members hone their writing skills by writing and submitting short stories for publication, as opposed to trying to write a 100k novel without any prior writing experience. ... Or later extended a short story into a full length novel.

Curious...



> _Writing short stories is completely different from writing novels (think 10k marathon vs. a 100 meter sprint)._
> _Short stories are often ignored and overlooked by writers who are hoping to write the next great American novel. But, what if I told you that a short story is the key to improve your writing, receive critical acclaim and even get published?_
> _You probably wouldn’t believe me, right? How could a short story accomplish all of that? You’re about to find out._




The article includes some interesting ideas on what to do with your short story



> *TURN YOUR SHORT STORY INTO A NOVEL*
> 
> A lot of great, critically-acclaimed novels started out as short stories. Some of the most popular include _Flowers for Algernon by Daniel Keyes, Raft by Stephen Baxter, and Ocean at the End of the Lane By Neil Gaiman._
> _It’s possible to come to the end of 10,000 words and realize that there’s much more left to say, more ideas you can explore, and more that the protagonist needs to learn._
> ...


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## bazz cargo (Aug 12, 2018)

With me it depends on ideas, some will only go so far. I have started on a flash for the LM and discovered it would take a lot more words than the allowance. Some of them are definitely novel length ideas.


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## H.Brown (Aug 12, 2018)

I have read similar advice recently as well Pip, apparently writing short stories can also be a good way to take a break when writing novels of over 100,000 words. I like writing the short entries for challenges here but am yet to try writing a short story, mine always turn into novels lol.


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## luckyscars (Aug 13, 2018)

I have heard this from both sides. On the one hand, the argument (illustrates here) that “nothing compares to a novel and the only way to be a great novelist is to work on novels” is true to the degree that, yeah, *nothing compares to a novel*. The commitment level, pacing, character development schedule, etc is totally different to in short stories etc. 

On the other hand we all know nothing compares to the experience of being in space and yet they routinely have astronauts train in pool tanks.  Look, you can’t make broad statements about this in my opinion. The fact is many, perhaps most, novelists start of as short story writers, poets or sometimes even journalists and that proves many of the skills (all be it not all) are indeed transferable. 

 I don’t agree with the idea of “a novel as a series of short stories” though. I know it is possible to do this through a framing narrative but I don’t really consider those novels in the traditional sense. Arabian Nights, for instance, isn’t a novel. It’s a jazzed up anthology. A collection with a theme. I don’t think any novelist would seriously say that the secret to a bestseller lies in stringing together short stories. I also think that the biggest difference between the two is not anything to do with what goes on the page but in the mental taxation and stamina that a novel is. That is always the hardest part by far.

I’ll also say that I actually think writing a good short story is really hard. Saying a lot with 7,000 words is always more difficult than saying a lot with 70,000.


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## Bayview (Aug 13, 2018)

If I'd started writing by trying to write short stories, I think I'd have quit. I just find them _so_ much more difficult than novels. I mean, assuming my goal is to write something meaningful with some depth, etc. Of course I could write 5K words of crap more easily than 75K words of crap, but if I'm trying not to write crap? Novels.

I respect the hell out of people who can write good, tight, sharp short stories, but I really don't think they should be thought of as a training ground for novels.

What they _are_, possibly, is a good training ground for _finishing what you start_, which is probably a valuable lesson. 

And if someone's having trouble with the vastness of a novel, then, sure, write something shorter to build some confidence and determination.

In terms of astronauts - I assume they train in the pool because it's too expensive and dangerous to train in actual zero-gravity. But that doesn't apply to writing novels, so... why practice writing in a form that doesn't match your interests and ultimate goals. There are lots of writing skills that can be developed by writing short stories, but these skills can also be developed by writing novels, so I don't think there's any need to write shorts if shorts aren't your thing.


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## Theglasshouse (Aug 13, 2018)

I guess my opinion differs from most. I enjoy writing short stories, and more so because of my current language abilties. I get quicker feedback on a short story I'd think than novels. That's why it matters. A beginning writer needs all the feedback they can get. Not everyone wants to give their feedback because you need to catch their attention. You see I hope I can be able to publish some short stories in pro magazines. It is a long process. Recently I got an email from a different story on a generous editor that made revisions. It seems like it will be published. But I made the edits in google docs. The payment was 6 cents a word. It's not a big story. I am thankful she liked the ideas, so it was edited very well by her. She was generous. Writing or I will say writers' faith is instrumental for motivation, so anyone who writes short stories should keep trying.

If I could regularly post new short stories penned by me that worked for readers all the time I'd move on to the novel. I would like to write a novella for instance, just to see if this could be a process of learning like a ladder. To see what I am capable of in my case, and to improve. I am still far from doing that, and won't do that. Not until I am more consistent in writing a story with a good quality and with good grammar.




> *TURN YOUR SHORT STORY INTO A NOVEL
> *​A lot of great, critically-acclaimed novels started out as short stories. Some of the most popular include _Flowers for Algernon by Daniel Keyes, Raft by Stephen Baxter, and Ocean at the End of the Lane By Neil Gaiman._​
> _It’s possible to come to the end of 10,000 words and realize that there’s much more left to say, more ideas you can explore, and more that the protagonist needs to learn._​
> _If you are greeted with a rush of inspiration at the end of your short story, don’t ignore it— embrace it and continue writing toward your novel._​
> ...



I enjoyed reading this idea a lot. That could be all the preparation you need to write a novel. To be inspired by your own short stories.

Winning a contest is also a good publishing credential when there are a lot of professional writers out there. When it uses anonymous judging all is fair play.


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## JJBuchholz (Aug 13, 2018)

Novella. Some of most intricate writing I have ever done came by way of a novella with six or more chapters and close to 20,000 words.

-JJB


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## luckyscars (Aug 13, 2018)

Bayview said:


> If I'd started writing by trying to write short stories, I think I'd have quit. I just find them _so_ much more difficult than novels. I mean, assuming my goal is to write something meaningful with some depth, etc. Of course I could write 5K words of crap more easily than 75K words of crap, but if I'm trying not to write crap? Novels.
> 
> I respect the hell out of people who can write good, tight, sharp short stories, but I really don't think they should be thought of as a training ground for novels.
> 
> ...



Obviously you are correct that zero gravity is better than water, but there are nevertheless physical truths that make the relative weightlessness simulated by being in a pool, while not the same, similar to being in outer space. As “same” as anything else on earth, anyway. 

It’s not an analogy I wish to live and die by. My only point is that one can learn through smaller, simpler things the skills to do bigger, more complex things and for those people they are definitely a de facto training ground. Virtually all professional racing drivers learn and train on go karts. Some of that is cost, as you mention, and no doubt if cost wasn’t an issue there are some who could learn to be just as competent going straight to Formula One cars, but there are also tactical reasons why learning on a smaller scale, with a shorter track, teaches skills that starting on a big car either would not teach you or would not teach you as quickly. 

I am not saying for a single moment one must or should follow this chain religiously to be a good writer. Only that I feel very strongly that short stories are uniquely placed to teach far more about the process than “starting what you finish” credits them. The fact a short story can usually be written in a day or two with even minimal commitment is obviously huge as it allows the unsteady novice to take certain risks that are easier to analyze, adjust, redo, etc without having to modify chapters of work. And then what about how to avoid plot holes? A short story usually has a simpler plot than a novel so being able to construct a simple plot that is water tight is invariably easier. What about pacing, learning brevity and avoiding overwriting scenes? Or basic self-editing?You can absolutely learn this with attempting to scar a 75,000 word novel, sure, but I personally found it much easier to learn how to do this, both mentally AND on page, when I was trying to trim down a 7,000 word draft to be under 5,000 words for a contest. It’s real, tangible results that even a novice can see. Short stories tend to be subject to arbitrary word counts so the discipline is hugely important, and the lessons in how to spot problems useful when later in your career trying to figure out why a novel that should be 80,000 words ballooned to 140,000. 

Funnily enough one of the best learning experiences I had in writing was when I had to manage a Twitter account for a business. Nothing to do with fiction yet something about having to try to say something important/catchy/funny in 140 characters or whatever it was really helped in making me realize how much excess gunk I will write when not forced to be incredibly conscious of it. This post being a good example I’m sure!

Anyway, I find with this stuff that broadly speaking it’s close enough to 50/50 between novelists that start in novels and novelists that start in short stories that I’m happy with saying there’s no catch all answer. Most will simply advocate whatever worked for us, right? I will say the output of what I have read by those who started in shorts tends to be better, however they tend to be more experienced writers overall (no doubt in part by virtue having completed and published several pieces) so I wouldn’t dare say there is any evidence for a conclusion on the subject. Either way is fine. It’s a good training ground if you need it to be. It’s a waste of time if you don’t need it (and have no interest in the form for it’s own sake...)


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## Ralph Rotten (Aug 13, 2018)

I started with shorts and an 8mm movie script. 

Asimov paid the bills for years with shorts.


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## bdcharles (Aug 13, 2018)

luckyscars said:


> Funnily enough one of the best learning experiences I had in writing was when I had to manage a Twitter account for a business. Nothing to do with fiction yet something about having to try to say something important/catchy/funny in 140 characters or whatever it was really helped in making me realize how much excess gunk I will write when not forced to be incredibly conscious of it. This post being a good example I’m sure!



Agreed. Before the 280 character limit, and when I had yet to discover threads and other things that allowed me to waffle on, I got a big kick from seeing something voicey and succinct emerge from highly condensed prose. 

Maybe I should tweet my next novel!


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## luckyscars (Aug 14, 2018)

bdcharles said:


> I got a big kick from seeing something voicey and succinct emerge from highly condensed prose.



Thought it was just me! Ironically I also loathe Twitter for its lack of detail as well as myriad other irrelevant reasons but I do like the impact it had on my editing process. Short stories, micro fiction and even articles I feel were helpful to my writing development in a similar fashion.


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## NotMe (Aug 14, 2018)

I've started with short stories, only for the reason that writing a novel seems so monumental I can't wrap my head around it.


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## Kyle R (Aug 14, 2018)

PiP said:


> I was reading an interesting article this morning by New York Book Editors, HOW WRITING SHORT STORIES CAN HELP YOU BECOME A BETTER NOVELIST



I like the article's intentions (encouragement, motivation, giving some ideas on how to bridge the gap between the two forms), though how short story writing can help someone become a "better" novelist isn't really explore in the writeup.

Shorts are great way to hone the fundamentals—description, dialogue, action, etc.—and for that reason, I agree with those who consider them excellent practice for novel writing.

But they're not the _best_ form of practice, in my opinion. Perhaps second best.

Leaping from short fiction to long fiction can be jarring and sometimes discouraging (we even see evidence of this on these forums, by the members who find their stories inexplicably running out of steam after a few thousand words).

That's because learning to write a long narrative is something that short fiction won't fully help you with, unfortunately. It'll certainly give you an advantage over someone who hasn't written fiction at _all_, but if you really want to be a better novelist, there's only one real solution: write novels. The more the better.

Even the failed attempts at a novel (and there likely will be many) will be instructive and helpful—arguably even _more_ helpful than the successful attempts at writing a short story. Simply because when you write a short story, you're only honing _some_ of the skills required to write long fiction. There are still certain aspects of the long narrative form that you simply _aren't_ practicing when you write short fiction. At all.

The only way to practice _those_ elements is to actually write in the long form. And to do it a lot. And to do it badly. And to strive to do it better. Little by little, like learning to walk, one stumble and fall at a time. :encouragement:


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## Bayview (Aug 14, 2018)

luckyscars said:


> It’s not an analogy I wish to live and die by. My only point is that one can learn through smaller, simpler things the skills to do bigger, more complex things and for those people they are definitely a de facto training ground. Virtually all professional racing drivers learn and train on go karts. Some of that is cost, as you mention, and no doubt if cost wasn’t an issue there are some who could learn to be just as competent going straight to Formula One cars, but there are also tactical reasons why learning on a smaller scale, with a shorter track, teaches skills that starting on a big car either would not teach you or would not teach you as quickly.



I think of a different analogy - one that I've tried to work through myself in the past. When I was a kid, I took horseback riding lessons for several years, the standard hunter-jumper, point-the-well-trained-horse-at-the-jump-and-drive-him-over-it approach. And I enjoyed it, and I got reasonably good at it. Then I quit riding for quite a while, and when I came back to it as an adult I worked in a more "horsemanship" direction - learning all aspects of riding (jumping, dressage, western, etc.), working with young, untrained horses, etc. Really challenging and interesting stuff.

And the reason all this is relevant is that my childhood riding is sometimes an asset - it gave me a certain comfort around horses, my body knows how they move, etc. But I've been amazed by the number of things I've had to _unlearn_ as an adult rider in order to ride at the deeper, more complex level. Something as basic as the use of the reins... when I was a kid, reins were for steering and stopping. As an adult, most steering is done with legs and weight, while the reins are for communication, head carriage, etc. My coach spent several years yelling at me to not go for the reins every time I had a steering issue, and I knew _intellectually_ that I shouldn't use them that way, but it took my body a long time to re-train itself.

How does this apply to writing? Well, really clearly for writers who have to go through that phase of unlearning the inexplicable lessons so many students get in elementary school - don't use "said", use lots of adjectives, etc. They've got to get over that. But does it apply to short stories instead of novels?

I'm not sure. I certainly don't think short stories are easier than novels, or require less discipline, but i think they're legitimately simpler, inherently less complex. Are there bad habits, like my dependence on the reins, that one can pick up from writing short stories and avoid by going directly to longer forms? Again, I'm not sure.

But, certainly, if I'd had the choice of being taught to ride the "right" way when I was a kid, it would have made my riding as an adult easier. I'm not sure I would have had the attention span, as a child, to spend so much time on the subtleties instead of just sailing over as many jumps as I could manage. But I'm not sure the attention span argument applies to writers? Maybe it does.

Maybe this is just one more way that everyone is going to be different and there won't be a one-size solution!


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## Jack of all trades (Aug 14, 2018)

If we're going to use a running analogy, short storied are like sprints while novels are like marathons. One doesn't train for the Boston, or any, marathon by running sprints each day. Marathon training is different. What they have in common is some kind of running.

Shorts are fine. Novels are good. And writing one can give you a chance to learn something that may help with the other. But there's nothing to indicate that someone who has written only shorts is better prepared to write a novel than someone who has written a novella, or flash, or even nonfiction. And for story length, shorts may hurt your ability to think of a longer and more complex plot.


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## Terry D (Aug 14, 2018)

Writing short stories can help you learn how to write better fiction, and can give a novice a sense of accomplishment by actually finishing a work. Practicing our craft is always a good thing. But short stories aren't, IMO, the best practice for writing a novel. If you really want to write novels, start a novel. The breadth and pace of a novel affects the writing all the way down to the sentence level, and certainly at the scene level, so someone who wants to write the next 120,000 word NYT bestseller needs to practice the structure and pace of longer works. 

If the goal is to get better at writing, short stories are great practice -- they might be the best place to hone word choice skills (along with poetry), and they do teach young writers to think in terms of beginning-middle-and-end. But the only real training you get for writing a book-length work is by trying to write book-length works.


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## Kyle R (Aug 14, 2018)

Terry D said:


> The breadth and pace of a novel affects the writing all the way down to the sentence level ...



Kyle reread this sentence four times in a row. It seemed illogical, to argue that a novel's size could influence even its _smallest_ components. And yet—?

"And _yet_ ..." he mumbled.

He closed his laptop, sat down in a lotus position, and began to ponder life's deeper connections. Planetary orbits and the structure of an atom. The fractals of trees and the branching of veins. The spirals of galaxies and mollusk shells. The list went on and on, until his wife stormed into the room and yelled at him to take out the trash.

"And stop narrating in third person!" she added, as he grumbled out the door.


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## Ralph Rotten (Aug 14, 2018)

I would think short stories would be the logical place to start. It allows new writers to gain their sea legs and master the basics before moving on to the complexities of book-length fiction.


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## Bayview (Aug 14, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> I would think short stories would be the logical place to start. It allows new writers to gain their sea legs and master the basics before moving on to the complexities of book-length fiction.




A lot of people seem to be thinking of short stories as somehow easier or more basic than novels. Is that the general consensus? ('Cause I don't think I share it...)


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## Ralph Rotten (Aug 14, 2018)

On the topic of social media as a writing tool, I have to admit that it actually helped me learn to build better characters...but not the way you would *ever *suspect.  You see, in my previous life I was a troll. 


And no, not some whiny, anemic troll who uses circular logic to draw people into downward conversation spirals. Nope.
Have you ever been in a political forum and made a comment and suddenly you got your ass beat-down by 3 dudes? It may have been me...all 3. My tolling style is multiplicity; the power of many alts.  

How in the hell does that improve writing skills? Because for multiplicity to work you have got to create each avatar as a unique being. Not only do they need to have different writing styles, cadence, and vocabulary, but their value-sets are also different. Even their typos and misspellings have to be consistently different.  Not only that, but you have to be able to do it fast; political forums move faster than a flash-flood. Reveal yourself and they will feed on you like piranhas at brunch.  Seriously, it was bloody during the George W elections, worse in the Obama elections.  But if you can handle 3 simultaneous avatars in that kind of forum, then you can really learn how to handle characters.






Before anyone asks; no.
WF is one of the few forums I belong to where I don't have any alts.
As for which side I fought for? I'm a moderate so I troll the entrenched left and right.
To me the extremists on both ends are the root of America's problems.
They deserve to be trolled.


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## Ralph Rotten (Aug 14, 2018)

Bayview said:


> A lot of people seem to be thinking of short stories as somehow easier or more basic than novels. Is that the general consensus? ('Cause I don't think I share it...)





Not easier, just less of a logistical hassle. Book length fiction takes some managing. More words, more story, more characters, more to manage and organize.

Short stories are lighter this way.


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## Terry D (Aug 14, 2018)

Bayview said:


> A lot of people seem to be thinking of short stories as somehow easier or more basic than novels. Is that the general consensus? ('Cause I don't think I share it...)



Not here. I believe most people think of the short story to novel progression as logical, but that's just because they are intimidated by the length of a novel. One writer said (and I'm paraphrasing here), "As a young writer, you are going to write lots and lots of junk before you learn your craft. It doesn't make any difference if those first words come in the form of twenty, five-thousand word short stories, or one 100,000 word novel. If you want to write novels, write a novel."

Shorts are _not _easier to write than novels; they are just different. They are easier to complete, but not to complete _well_.


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## luckyscars (Aug 14, 2018)

Bayview said:


> A lot of people seem to be thinking of short stories as somehow easier or more basic than novels. Is that the general consensus? ('Cause I don't think I share it...)



Easier? No. More basic? Usually yes I’d say. Most definitely. And I don’t know if that’s really something that can be rationally disputed either, is it? 

While it is possible to have a complicated short story just as it is to have a simple novel, most “true” short stories (I am speaking of stuff at or under about the 5,000-7,000 word mark) are by necessity more “basic” (basic as a synonym for simple in design) then most novels because they have to be. If a novel isn’t typically more complex, more un-basic, than a short story then what are all those additional words for exactly? I can’t remember the last short story I read that had more than one point of view, more than a couple of significant characters, more than a handful of scenes, multiple trans continental type settings or time periods, extended dialogue or real character development of the “zero to hero” sort. I’m not saying there are not exceptions but talking the norm here...

I said before (at least I think so, or maybe I just dreamt it —this is the sort of thing I am sad to say I occasionally do dream about...) I don’t think short stories are easier than novels. These days I actually think they are harder, for myself as a devoted novelist. The discipline of telling a capitivating story, of getting to that crucial emotional “crunch” within a few thousand words is bloody impressive, especially for someone like me who frequently has to fight to keep my first drafts below 200,000 words and can come close to a short story’s word count in a single rambling forum post sometimes. There are many short stories that have impacted me personally as much if not more than novels. I have absolute respect for the form but it is more basic and so what? The Mona Lisa is very basic compared to the Sistine Chapel or even an average Damien Hirst installation but nobody is going to be foolish enough to debate what is easier, surely?


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## NotMe (Aug 14, 2018)

Bayview said:


> A lot of people seem to be thinking of short stories as somehow easier or more basic than novels. Is that the general consensus? ('Cause I don't think I share it...)



I'm right there with you. Short stories are a different animal entirely. I tend to write long-form stories anyway, so it's always a challenge for me to stay under 5k words. Flash fiction is even harder to do right.



Ralph Rotten said:


> On the topic of social media as a writing tool, I have to admit that it actually helped me learn to build better characters...but not the way you would *ever *suspect.  You see, in my previous life I was a troll.
> 
> 
> And no, not some whiny, anemic troll who uses circular logic to draw people into downward conversation spirals. Nope.
> ...



It's funny you should mention that. I've been tinkering with a story along that premise, but instead dealing with fake Facebook accounts and YouTube comments. The forum angle could also be interesting.

I applaud you.


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## H.Brown (Aug 14, 2018)

I think that most writers when they first start out writing will (in ost cases) be writing short pieces anyway. So I believe that for a new writer, writing a 5,000-7,000 word short story it may be a struggle and an acomplishment, but I think as a writers goes on they begin to write more lengthy pieces. However I wouldn't nessassarily say that short stories are easier to write than novels, as LS says in a novel you have more words to play with, more plot development, character development, ect.. It takes a lot of skill to write a condensed story with such few words, but they can also be very good reads when done well. 

For writing something as a first I would say do not focus upon if it is a short story or a novel but concentrate on the writing itself, write the story you want to write and see where it takes you.


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## Bayview (Aug 14, 2018)

luckyscars said:


> Easier? No. More basic? Usually yes I’d say. Most definitely. And I don’t know if that’s really something that can be rationally disputed either, is it?
> 
> While it is possible to have a complicated short story just as it is to have a simple novel, most “true” short stories (I am speaking of stuff at or under about the 5,000-7,000 word mark) are by necessity more “basic” (basic as a synonym for simple in design) then most novels because they have to be. If a novel isn’t typically more complex, more un-basic, than a short story then what are all those additional words for exactly? I can’t remember the last short story I read that had more than one point of view, more than a couple of significant characters, more than a handful of scenes, multiple trans continental type settings or time periods, extended dialogue or real character development of the “zero to hero” sort. I’m not saying there are not exceptions but talking the norm here...
> 
> I said before (at least I think so, or maybe I just dreamt it —this is the sort of thing I am sad to say I occasionally do dream about...) I don’t think short stories are easier than novels. These days I actually think they are harder, for myself as a devoted novelist. The discipline of telling a capitivating story, of getting to that crucial emotional “crunch” within a few thousand words is bloody impressive, especially for someone like me who frequently has to fight to keep my first drafts below 200,000 words and can come close to a short story’s word count in a single rambling forum post sometimes. There are many short stories that have impacted me personally as much if not more than novels. I have absolute respect for the form but it is more basic and so what? The Mona Lisa is very basic compared to the Sistine Chapel or even an average Damien Hirst installation but nobody is going to be foolish enough to debate what is easier, surely?



I agree that the elements of novels you've listed don't tend to show up in short stories, but I can definitely think of short stories that aren't "basic" in any understanding of the word I've got. Like, layers and layers of meaning and imagery and symbolism and incredible depth... and, yes, there are novels that are just as deep, just as emotionally complex, but there are also novels that aren't all that deep and also aren't that structurally complex. Maybe this all comes down to different interpretations of the word basic.

I'd certainly advocate for novelists to start with writing less complex novels - I see a lot of beginners proposing these epic, genre-defying, incredibly complex extravaganzas and I cringe because I don't think they likely have the skills yet to carry it off. I'd say a simple novel can be much more basic than a complex short story... but, again, could just be interpretations of the word...


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## NotMe (Aug 14, 2018)

H.Brown said:


> For writing something as a first I would say do not focus upon if it is a short story or a novel but concentrate on the writing itself, write the story you want to write and see where it takes you.



It wouldn't be the first story I've written, but this is a very interesting piece of advice. I often feel constrained when writing particular stories, like I have to speed up certain parts and gloss over things to stay under a 7 or 8k word count. For my next story, I may take this piece of advice and just run with wherever it takes me, regardless of word count. The problem I see, though, is when you get to that 20k mark or so and finish... there's not much of a market for novellas.

Then again, I want to write a novel, and I suppose the only way I'll ever tackle the challenge is to convince myself I'm _not_ writing a novel, just a story.


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## H.Brown (Aug 14, 2018)

NotMe said:


> It wouldn't be the first story I've written, but this is a very interesting piece of advice. I often feel constrained when writing particular stories, like I have to speed up certain parts and gloss over things to stay under a 7 or 8k word count. For my next story, I may take this piece of advice and just run with wherever it takes me, regardless of word count. The problem I see, though, is when you get to that 20k mark or so and finish... there's not much of a market for novellas.
> 
> Then again, I want to write a novel, and I suppose the only way I'll ever tackle the challenge is to convince myself I'm _not_ writing a novel, just a story.



NotMe my novel that is now nearing completion began its life as an idea for my university dissertation, where I was only allowed to use 8,000 words creative work but without thinkning of the word count and just focusing on the story I found that within a year I had written 20,000 words instead, so before editing and cutting it down to size I saved and returned, now it is over 100,000 words in length and I still haven't felt  like I have told the story I want to.

You will find that every writer is different and finding your own style is part of the journey, if you only write 20,000 words then you have wrote a novella,  which after only writing small pieces to start you have now wrote something bigger and I've read a lot of novella's that were awesome stories. It's all about finding your own voice in my opinion. But I thik that you have to write your own stories your own wawy. I am glad that my advice has helpped.


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## NotMe (Aug 14, 2018)

My writing voice seems to drag on and on LOL, so I know I should at least attempt to write a novel. It's just a scary thought.


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## H.Brown (Aug 14, 2018)

The editing process can help with that, a narrative voice can sound a bit droll when for example the right words aren't being found, a way to shake this up can be to use dialogue and giving different characters, different accets. Also the form of the writing can enhance the sound of the naarative voice, for example using different length paragraphs and sentences can also help.

What do you mean that you know you should atleast attempt a novel? This can be stunting as a thought, as trying to force yourself and your imagination to write a full length novel can limit both voie and the plot in my opinion, it can be putting to much pressure on you and the writing. For me writing should be a relaxing time, once I begin to start getting too stressed about what I'm writing, I take a break. This allows me to return to the novel with fresher eyes. It is all about finding balance. Now that you have reached the 30 word mark and I'm a little more alert I will have a look at the writing you have shared with us here and leave my thoughts for you.


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## NotMe (Aug 14, 2018)

H.Brown said:


> What do you mean that you know you should atleast attempt a novel? This can be stunting as a thought, as trying to force yourself and your imagination to write a full length novel can limit both voie and the plot in my opinion, it can be putting to much pressure on you and the writing. For me writing should be a relaxing time, once I begin to start getting too stressed about what I'm writing, I take a break. This allows me to return to the novel with fresher eyes. It is all about finding balance. Now that you have reached the 30 word mark and I'm a little more alert I will have a look at the writing you have shared with us here and leave my thoughts for you.



I've realized in the last year that I want to write fiction for a living. The only way to do that is to pump out novels.

And I want to write a novel. I think my writing style would lend well to longer works of fiction than the classic short story. It's just a daunting idea. Then again, I'm just whining.


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## luckyscars (Aug 15, 2018)

Bayview said:


> I agree that the elements of novels you've listed don't tend to show up in short stories, but I can definitely think of short stories that aren't "basic" in any understanding of the word I've got. Like, layers and layers of meaning and imagery and symbolism and incredible depth... and, yes, there are novels that are just as deep, just as emotionally complex, but there are also novels that aren't all that deep and also aren't that structurally complex. Maybe this all comes down to different interpretations of the word basic.
> 
> I'd certainly advocate for novelists to start with writing less complex novels - I see a lot of beginners proposing these epic, genre-defying, incredibly complex extravaganzas and I cringe because I don't think they likely have the skills yet to carry it off. I'd say a simple novel can be much more basic than a complex short story... but, again, could just be interpretations of the word...



I think you're right that what I consider "basic" and what you do are probably two different things entirely. I don't really like the word as it is being used here, to be honest...

One of the reasons I think we may be interpreting things differently is because there is an obvious (at least to me) difference between complexity in terms of method and complexity in terms of meaning. A short story, in my opinion, tends to be simple in delivery, again because of the length issue, but because of that simplicity in delivery often really good short stories become extremely complex in terms of messaging.

One of my favourite short stories is Carver's "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love" and I think that is a pretty good example. Four characters sitting around a table talking over dinner having a single conversation. Extremely simple. I'd say it's as basic as any great story could be. But of course it _isn't _because entire papers have been written about the various themes and motifs - the symbolism behind the alcohol consumption; how the characters fail to express their true feelings about What Love Is and the slow unraveling of underlying resentment between married couples. These are disarmingly big, complicated themes for a story of so few words to so powerfully explore and there's nothing simple about it in that respect.

How this fits in to the original topic, about the place of short stories in the development of the writer (if any) is that I believe for many novice writers complex ideas are not the problem, executing them well is. Even now I can think of plenty of abstract themes I would like to someday address through a story but have not yet figured out how to do them justice. Something like capital punishment, for instance, I find is really hard to write about in a novel when you have no direct experience of it. It is a big issue, very polarizing, very much swamped in legalese, quite difficult for a layperson to understand in depth and capture in a way that seems believable -- potentially tricky to write an entire novel about, in other words. But in a short story form one can pick on a single scene to learn about and inject one's imagination into, can't they? So rather than writing about an entire case in novel form, why not write about a prisoner's last meal in short story form? Ultimately the message is probably going to be broadly similar I would guess, but the latter so much easier to write well.


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## JustRob (Aug 15, 2018)

My writing "career", if that is what it was, consisted of one short story, dashed off in a matter of hours just to get the thoughts out of my head because I was far too busy that day to contemplate becoming a writer, followed a couple of years later by an entire novel based on the ideas in that short story. I guess I encapsulated the typical career of a writer in just those two activities then, which may be why I never felt seriously inclined to write anything much more. Time becomes precious as one gets older and it doesn't make sense to play the long game the way that younger people might.


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## H.Brown (Aug 15, 2018)

NotMe said:


> I've realized in the last year that I want to write fiction for a living. The only way to do that is to pump out novels.
> 
> And I want to write a novel. I think my writing style would lend well to longer works of fiction than the classic short story. It's just a daunting idea. Then again, I'm just whining.




Hahaha we all whine every now and then. Give the writing based on writing a story you wish to tell, you may find as I did that it is more relaxed and the writing less forced than writing to a word count. Through the writing process you will find that you both add and take away words from the first draft but as the story matures, so does the word count. My first draft was around 20,000 words and now on it's sixth edit it is 108,500+ words. I look forward to seeing you you get on. We all have s0tories within ourselves to tell and only we can tell them.


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## PSFoster (Sep 17, 2018)

I write shorts because I am not fond of writing long narrative to explain how things evolved. I like to get straight to the point.


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