# Five Things To Do In an Opening Paragraph.



## Gavrushka (Mar 2, 2014)

I have just read this, and thought I would share it.

I would imagine, dependent on both style and genre, some of these will be absent, or lack emphasis.

There is, I believe, also a risk of trying too hard to entice the reader and either overloading them, or providing such a stark contrast with the following prose that they switch off.

I find posing questions, indirectly, are a good way to leave the reader wanting more.

This is one person's take on how to entice the reader. I'd love to hear others... So how would you entice an agent, umm, I mean a reader?


----------



## Kepharel (Mar 2, 2014)

Consider the two following extremes of an opening paragraph:

In J G ballard's "High Rise" we have the opening lines:

_Later, as he sat on his balcony eating the dog, Dr Robert Laing reflected on the unusual events that had taken place within his huge apartment building during the previous three months

_And this from "A Welsh Eye" by Gwyn Thomas
_
Come up towards the Rhondda from Llantrisant. The hills grow less gentle.  The fields lose grace and lushness.  The first coal tips sit fatly on torn slopes.Black pyramids set up by nimble-witted pharaohs who had the theatrical guile not to get themselves enclosed within.  The housing takes on the sombre, barrack like monotony that even has the mice complaining and keeps the average modern architect in a deep faint and glad to be there.

_Ballard's introduction is an invitation to a mystery and a dare to uncover the solution to be found in the following pages promising a disturbing roller-coaster ride along the way.  Gwyn Thomas on the other hand offers his skills as a word-smith to provide you with a narrative passport and an invitation to look further than your garden fence and well kept lawn and explore a land so geographically close but so culturally alien you feel you should at least make the effort to discover more._
_


----------



## Sam (Mar 2, 2014)

One thing to do in an opening paragraph: 

1. *Hook the reader. *

You don't need to engage the senses, evoke the poetry of the Gods, use 'interesting' words, or anything else – as long as you get the reader's attention.


----------



## Gavrushka (Mar 2, 2014)

I think the link was to show possibly ways to hook the reader and, as Kepharel suggested, that is dependent on the author and the genre.

One issue I had as an unpublished writer, was that I never had to worry about the hook. Those who read my words were friends and family, and would read on by default. - From this site, I've discovered a reader won't automatically bear with the writer, but needs a little incentive...


----------



## Sam (Mar 2, 2014)

Fair enough, but there are more than five ways to hook a reader.


----------



## Gavrushka (Mar 2, 2014)

Sam said:


> Fair enough, but there are more than five ways to hook a reader.



I'd settle for discovering one!


----------



## bazz cargo (Mar 2, 2014)

'It was the best of ideas, and the worst of ideas.'

I find the first few words take a lot of my time. 

My major problem is 'rules.' Every time I find some I try and subvert them. So perhaps rules are a good thing for thinking outside of the cardboard shipping case?


----------



## Gavrushka (Mar 2, 2014)

I've spent the better part of a week on an opening paragraph now, and I seem to be parting company with any semblance of common sense. It's so damned hard to read your words through fresh eyes and see them as a reader will.

The first words came instantly for me. The right first words... Well, that's another matter altogether.


----------



## dither (Mar 2, 2014)

Very interesting thread here;

 In the first example, the reader is told nothing.
How could one not be curious?
And that really is the key isn't it.


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Mar 2, 2014)

Gavrushka said:


> I've spent the better part of a week on an opening paragraph now, and I seem to be parting company with any semblance of common sense. It's so damned hard to read your words through fresh eyes and see them as a reader will.
> 
> The first words came instantly for me. The right first words... Well, that's another matter altogether.



Gav, have you ever heard the saying "Go with your first instinct"?

There are times that it's best to just go with what you have. I mean, (and this isn't directed at you personally) you came up with those "first words" you mentioned pretty easily, right? Maybe that's because they really were the _right_ ones. They may have needed a little bit of polish, but they were right.

I think it's something that a lot of us could learn. A lot of us are really bad about over thinking our work. We will beat ourselves with a felt tipped hammer trying to find the "right" words until we can no longer see the forest for the trees, so to speak.


----------



## Gavrushka (Mar 2, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> Gav, have you ever heard the saying "Go with your first instinct"?



My first instinct was to write a fantasy book about Demons with stubby little legs... - This is a sci fi about lizards in thigh boots. Reconciling the two may be difficult. *snickers*

I'm taking a break (first proper one in many years) and just throwing ideas about as they grasp me... I've kept every iteration, and will likely post them all in due course.

Being serious, I read fantasy in the main, and wrote several fantasy books, and the urge to rewrite them with added awesome is irresistible...


----------



## Jeko (Mar 2, 2014)

I think a writer should do those things all throughout their work; the whole story, for example, should be strung together with conflict. People miss it out of openings because they think you need to 'set up' the story before conflict can commence, when conflict is the most important thing to introduce right from the get-go.


----------



## J Anfinson (Mar 2, 2014)

2 and 4 are what I concentrate my efforts on for an opening. The hint will give the reader somewhat of an idea of what kind of story they are about to read, and leaving them with an intriguing question helps sucker them into reading on. The rest still applies, but I work that in as I go. And yes, the opening is typically reworked over and over until I'm at least mildly satisfied.


----------



## thepancreas11 (Mar 2, 2014)

Gav, if you're spending more than fifteen minutes writing any paragraph on the first draft, chances are, you're overdoing it. Just get it out. Get it down. It's going to be ugly and sloppy the first time your write it (well, it always is for me), and I probably won't like it, but if I did that with every paragraph I write, I'd never write anything, would I? It took me eight years to write my first book because I changed it a thousand times. Wrote 300 pages once, then turned around, destroyed them all, and went back to the drawing board. If you're anything like me, or some of the other writers I talk to on a regular basis, then you'll know that you can write a much better hook for the first paragraph once you've finished writing the book. Chances are, you'll write a decent one after writing a dozen chapters. That'll give you a much better sense of what style your book is in, what direction it's going.

The only rule that matters to me is number one: HOOK THE READER.


----------



## Kyle R (Mar 2, 2014)

There are three "ingredients" I make sure to include in my opening (not necessarily in any particular order, but usually in this one:


the protagonist,
the setting,

and establishing the protagonist's goal for the scene.

Maybe a simple way of putting it is I make sure to answer the questions: "Who is this about, where is this taking place, and what does the main character want?"

I don't worry about accomplishing it all in a single paragraph, though. As long as the elements are there, I'm okay with taking my time defining each one. :encouragement:


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Mar 2, 2014)

Gavrushka said:


> My first instinct was to write a fantasy book about Demons with stubby little legs... - This is a sci fi about lizards in thigh boots. Reconciling the two may be difficult. *snickers*



Perhaps. LOL


----------



## Gavrushka (Mar 3, 2014)

thepancreas11 said:


> Gav, if you're spending more than fifteen minutes writing any paragraph on the first draft, chances are, you're overdoing it. Just get it out. Get it down. It's going to be ugly and sloppy the first time your write it (well, it always is for me), and I probably won't like it, but if I did that with every paragraph I write, I'd never write anything, would I? It took me eight years to write my first book because I changed it a thousand times. Wrote 300 pages once, then turned around, destroyed them all, and went back to the drawing board. If you're anything like me, or some of the other writers I talk to on a regular basis, then you'll know that you can write a much better hook for the first paragraph once you've finished writing the book. Chances are, you'll write a decent one after writing a dozen chapters. That'll give you a much better sense of what style your book is in, what direction it's going.
> 
> The only rule that matters to me is number one: HOOK THE READER.



The book took around 3 months to write, and I like the overall feel of it. - There are a few changes to make, and that includes knowing where and how it should start. - I'm having a chill, throwing ideas at it as they grab me, and thinking on other matters. - This is really more about underdoing it after too many years of the opposite. - I'm not pre-occupied with the Story, but only when a thought grabs me do I revisit the start.

I think my sense of humour sometimes does not come across in my posts, but I'm not fretting about Eviction, nor am I forcing ideas. - It's more a question of sitting back, and jotting them down as they knock on my door and introduce themselves.

Anyway, brace yourselves as I'll be posting an excerpt from my love-child story in due course... And the protagonist is a seven foot tall red-headed lady, leather clad and with a childish sense of humour...


----------



## Justin Rocket (Mar 3, 2014)

When I write an opening paragraph, I try to do the following

1.) Invoke a mystery that is personal to the POV character
2.) Start with action
3.) Give the reader a reason to care about the protagonist
4.) Foreshadow the story
5.) Hint at the theme


----------



## Staff Deployment (Mar 3, 2014)

I've started way too many stories lately. Some of the opening paragraphs very quickly get the tone of the piece right. Others are entirely wrong.

_Covered in grime and sporting an eternally furrowed brow, Chris seems very serious for a man riding a frilly pink bike one size too small. Emblazoned onto the side of the bike, in black paint, are the words "Her Majesty's Royal Bicycle: The Confidence"._

This is for a slow, sombre story about the horrors of isolation and deprivation.


----------



## Caragula (Mar 3, 2014)

@Kepharel, High Rise was written by JG Ballard, wasn't it?


----------



## Phoenix Raven (Mar 3, 2014)

Maybe I'm doing it all wrong but my first paragraph has nothing to do with my protagonist. I describe the starting location, and give a brief background of the people, I also hint that it's an old medieval village living in fear of unknown danger.

I have read a number of great novels that have no mention of the protagonist in the first paragraph. Now you guys have me thinking, so I'll do some more research. I agree with the part about trying to suck in the reader though.


----------



## Kyle R (Mar 3, 2014)

Phoenix Raven said:


> Maybe I'm doing it all wrong but my first paragraph has nothing to do with my protagonist. I describe the starting location, and give a brief background of the people, I also hint that it's an old medieval village living in fear of unknown danger.
> 
> I have read a number of great novels that have no mention of the protagonist in the first paragraph. Now you guys have me thinking, so I'll do some more research. I agree with the part about trying to suck in the reader though.



There's no "wrong" way to do anything in creative writing. And, at least for me, it usually takes several paragraphs to establish different things (one paragraph to establish the setting, another paragraph to introduce the protagonist, another paragraph to introduce the conflict... et cetera.)

I've read some best-selling authors who takes several paragraphs just to describe the setting alone (one award-winning author spent the entire first chapter describing the landscape, and didn't introduce the main character until chapter two). 

I'd say you're doing fine. :encouragement:


----------



## Kepharel (Mar 3, 2014)

Good spot Caragula..of course it was..what was I thinking, I mean, I've even read the thing  Thanks for introducing me to the site btw


----------



## Bishop (Mar 3, 2014)

My first few paragraphs are entirely action oriented, and I think they do a good job of hooking the reader in. My story starts away from the main cast, so to speak, so the action is important to set the overall tone for the book as well as to set the scene (and rules, I suppose) that the world I built uses.

That being said, I re-wrote the entire prologue AFTER I finished the rest of the book (thanks to the insights of some of WF's finest!) and think it vastly improved afterward.

Bishop


----------



## Sam (Mar 3, 2014)

Phoenix Raven said:


> Maybe I'm doing it all wrong but my first paragraph has nothing to do with my protagonist. I describe the starting location, and give a brief background of the people, I also hint that it's an old medieval village living in fear of unknown danger.
> 
> I have read a number of great novels that have no mention of the protagonist in the first paragraph. Now you guys have me thinking, so I'll do some more research. I agree with the part about trying to suck in the reader though.



The thing about great novels is that the writers had already established their name prior to writing them. If you hope to be published, opening a novel with a location may not be the way to go -- unless that location can hook the reader. Despite what some may say, opening paragraphs are designed to do one thing and one thing only: force the reader to read the second paragraph. If you can make your location do that, more power to you. If you can't, I personally would consider changing it.


----------



## Justin Rocket (Mar 3, 2014)

My personal opinion

is that the tension in the story has to start building from word one.  So, the writer must put characters the reader cares about in jeopardy.  Unless it is a sequel, starting with action doesn't do that because the reader doesn't know or care about the characters yet.  If the energy in the story is popping every which way from the first word, then the reader doesn't have the time to settle in and care about the characters.  But, start with a mystery, where the energy is much more subversive and subtle, and the writer can hook the reader and reel him in like a skilled fisherman.

For example
Given a choice of between starting the book with 1.) the protagonist being shot at or 2.) the protagonist receiving a death threat from an unidentified source who knows the protagonist in which the death threat states that the protagonist will be killed if he does 'X', the second option makes for a far better intro.

Regarding starting with a description of the landscape, the reason it is discouraged is that it is usually done poorly.  Done poorly, the weather has zero impact on the story.  It becomes a "it was a dark and stormy night".  But, give it and immediate impact on the protagonist and add a mystery and you can make a good intro, "the clouds boiled with lightning and battering wind as Johnathon Smythe raced along the coastline trying to get to Saint Anne's hospital before the stranger gave birth in the back seat of his Bentley".


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Mar 3, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> My personal opinion
> 
> is that the tension in the story has to start building from word one.  So, the writer must put characters the reader cares about in jeopardy.  Unless it is a sequel, starting with action doesn't do that because the reader doesn't know or care about the characters yet.  If the energy in the story is popping every which way from the first word, then the reader doesn't have the time to settle in and care about the characters.  But, start with a mystery, where the energy is much more subversive and subtle, and the writer can hook the reader and reel him in like a skilled fisherman.
> 
> ...



Sometimes I agree with you, sometimes I don't. Both are true with this.

While I agree that it is important to get the readers to care about your characters, I disagree with the idea that you have to do it within the first couple of paragraphs to keep the readers attention. 

If the protagonist is being shot at, and the author does a good job of describing why...or the confusion the protagonist feels from not _knowing _why, then that will probably hook the reader and keep them reading. That, in turn, gives the author the opportunity to get the readers to care about the characters.

Of course, the author can't take _too _long to get that process going. But I don't think they have to do it immediately.

Just my opinion, of course.


----------



## Justin Rocket (Mar 3, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> Sometimes I agree with you, sometimes I don't. Both are true with this.
> 
> While I agree that it is important to get the readers to care about your characters, I disagree with the idea that you have to do it within the first couple of paragraphs to keep the readers attention.
> 
> ...



I'm always up for a difference of opinion.  Perhaps our difference lies in our respective beliefs wrt how much effort the average consumer puts into selecting which book to buy.  
I believe that if he has 20 books on the shelf in front of him and he has only enough money to buy one, he's going to select which ever book hooks him the best.  I don't believe he will read a couple of paragraphs of several books to decide.


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Mar 4, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> I'm always up for a difference of opinion.  Perhaps our difference lies in our respective beliefs wrt how much effort the average consumer puts into selecting which book to buy.
> I believe that if he has 20 books on the shelf in front of him and he has only enough money to buy one, he's going to select which ever book hooks him the best.  I don't believe he will read a couple of paragraphs of several books to decide.



Perhaps. But if he is going to select the one that grabs him/her, there is no guarantee that your book (or mine) would be among the first he/she grabs anyway. 

If we are 15 books down the row, then the chances of him getting to ours aren't very good anyway.

But, you sort of made my argument for me. If he is going to grab the first one that really grabs him, then I wouldn't think him giving a rat's hindquarters about the depth of the character should be first on the priority list.

He'll worry about that when he gets more into the book. For the first few lines, or a couple of paragraphs at least, the writer has to reach out and grab the reader by the face. I would think that would indicate that we should be more action oriented for the first few paragraphs.

Maybe it's just me, but if I saw..

"Holy s***!" Steve thought as he ducked behind his truck. "What the hell is going on? Why is someone shooting at me?" (Much better written, of course. My prose is really rusty.)

I would be a whole lot more likely to keep reading than I would be if I saw 

"The morning sun shone in Steve's eye, nearly blinding him as he walked through the dusty parking lot on his way to his dilapidated Dodge."

Both are decent openings. But one jumps out and screams at the reader, while the other sort of plods along on it's merry way.

Again, this just may be because of my own personal tastes in what I read. Someone else will probably prefer the second way.

That's fine. It will be up to the reader to decide which he/she prefers. And how far down the row they are willing to keep looking to find that suitable opening.


----------



## Kepharel (Mar 4, 2014)

An interesting exchange between Bowman and Rocket there which made me consider my strategy for buying a book.  I go into the bookshop with the with a pre-determined genre in mind.  Having found the appropriate shelf I read the inside jacket synopsis of what it's all about, then allow myself to be persuaded to varying degrees by the celebrity plaudits on the back of the jacket.  Finally I break all the rules of book selection by allowing myself to be conned by that flashy cover art.  All in that order. Reading the first paragraph, to my eternal shame, never comes into it..... I can't believe I've just said that


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Mar 4, 2014)

Kepharel said:


> An interesting exchange between Bowman and Rocket there which made me consider my strategy for buying a book.  I go into the bookshop with the with a pre-determined genre in mind.  Having found the appropriate shelf I read the inside jacket synopsis of what it's all about, then allow myself to be persuaded to varying degrees by the celebrity plaudits on the back of the jacket.  Finally I break all the rules of book selection by allowing myself to be conned by that flashy cover art.  All in that order. Reading the first paragraph, to my eternal shame, never comes into it..... I can't believe I've just said that



Wow. I can't imagine buying a book (especially one I am paying full price for or one from an author I've never read before) _without _reading the first few paragraphs. 

I have a hard time reading long winded authors. Jean Auel (I think that's how it's spelled) is one of the worst. At least, in Clan of the Cave Bear she was. 

I am always on the lookout for authors who are like that so I can avoid buying anything from them. I can usually tell within the first couple of paragraphs whether or not I'll enjoy the writing style.


----------



## Justin Rocket (Mar 4, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> Perhaps. But if he is going to select the one that grabs him/her, there is no guarantee that your book (or mine) would be among the first he/she grabs anyway.
> 
> If we are 15 books down the row, then the chances of him getting to ours aren't very good anyway.
> 
> ...



Okay, well, first off I never said that the buyer purchases the first book he picks up.  More likely, he picks up 4 or 5 books and reads the first couple of sentences to see which grab him.
Second, you provided two examples, one of which has a mystery (what is going on?  why is someone shooting at Steve?) and the other one doesn't.  So, to make your argument that what matters is action, let's put a mystery in the second example
first example, 





> "Holy s***!" Steve thought as he ducked behind his truck. "What the hell is going on? Why is someone shooting at me?"


second example 





> "The morning sun shone in Steve's eye, nearly blinding him as he walked through the dusty parking lot on his way to his dilapidated Dodge.  The girl was dead.  He'd gotten away with it."


Which of these makes a better intro?  In my opinion, the second one.


----------



## Kepharel (Mar 4, 2014)

OK so here goes...I have just pulled one of my all time favourite Sci-Fi books, "Earth Abides" by George R Stewart, off the shelf and taken a look at the inside jacket   Here's what it says:

'...And the Government of the United States of America is herewith suspended....'  These are the words heard by a nation, but Isherwood Williams, alone in the mountains, knew nothing of them.  He came down from the peaks and forests and stopped at the first town.  There was no-one there. He drove on through the cities and villages of America, and he found that apart from the dogs and the rats, there was no-one there.  The continent had become one huge ghost town. The world had died, and man must begin again... 

Do I need any more encouragement to buy this book. The inside cover of the book tells me there have been 8 prints of this book between 1950 and 1973, my copy. The publishers were Gollancz and Corgi Books. Seeking reassurance from plaudits on the back cover of the book I am told it was the winner of the International fantasy Award and first choice of The Science Fiction Book Club.  It's all beginning to stack up for me now.  Not only that, I have foreknowledge of the author and I am desperate to read and 'end of the world as we know it book'.

I'm not saying it's a risk free strategy, particularly with an author I've not read, but on the other hand the fact that a first few paragraphs of a book may be spell binding is no guarantee that 10,000 words in I will still feel that way...


----------



## Sam (Mar 4, 2014)

Kepharel said:
			
		

> Do I need any more encouragement to buy this book. The inside cover of  the book tells me there have been 8 prints of this book between 1950 and  1973, my copy. The publishers were Gollancz and Corgi Books. Seeking  reassurance from plaudits on the back cover of the book I am told it was  the winner of the International fantasy Award and first choice of The  Science Fiction Book Club.  It's all beginning to stack up for me now.   Not only that, I have foreknowledge of the author and I am desperate to  read and 'end of the world as we know it book'.



That's something of a faux question. _Earth Abides _is one of the greatest post-apocalyptic novels ever written. That's why it's still in print to this day. It deserves the recognition and awards it achieved, but not all novels which won awards were as good as George R. Stewart's magnum opus. You won't get a sense of the entire novel by reading the first chapter, no, but what it will do is give you a feel for what to expect. The jacket blurb won't do that.


----------



## Kepharel (Mar 4, 2014)

Not sure I entirely agree Sam.  You may know the book is an all time great and is a reason to read it, but not everyone does.  I certainly didn't know it by reputation at the time I read the blurb, maybe because I am not in the broadest sense a literary animal with an all encompassing enthusiasm for the world of literature at large; I don't discuss books overly with anyone else other than making a personal recommendation to a friend afterwards and I pay more heed to personal recommendation offered to me than all of the literary critics of the broadsheets which I almost never read who may have interests and prejudices I will never share.  I just go out and by a book on a theme that is currently interesting me.  After all it is just as likely that a book may be chosen successfully and to the satisfaction of the reader by that floozie of a Dust Jacket which tries desperately to part a punter from his hard earned, than that trollop of an opening paragraph which can be equally disingenuous in its promises.


----------



## Bishop (Mar 4, 2014)

To this point of dust jacket vs first paragraphs...

I've studied English and Literature since I was a sophomore in high school (well, actively studied) and earned a BA in English (seriously, this is only like, 30% bragging) and one of the things I was always told, by professors, by other students, by PhD candidates, by the back of the book... all of it told me that The Scarlet Letter was one of the greatest and most classic novels ever written. 

Lies. 

Nathaniel Hawthorne is a horrible man for unleashing that book on me. I hate it so much, it's actually rather palpable. I didn't learn that by looking at the back cover, the blurb, the laurels from famous people... I learned it in Chapter 1 when Hawthorne began the book with a _very long_description of a door. A DOOR. Yes, I understand the symbolism, the scene-setting, the imagery... but at the end of the day I read hundreds of words describing a door. The rest of the book did not get better.

What I'm trying to say is that you cannot see an author's writing style from a blurb or a synopsis. You have to read a few words and see if you like the _way _they tell a story.

Bishop


----------



## Kepharel (Mar 4, 2014)

Hya Bishop

Ok, we’re nearly there so let’s get back to what this thread was all about originally, the 5 ways to captivate an audience in the first three paragraphs. Presumably, had Nathaniel Hawthorne read said article he may have thought   

‘Hang on; this opening description of a door is doing me no favours at all.  What I need to do is entice the reader into parting with his cash by liberal use of some verbal lipstick and eyeliner (the floozie/trollop imagery won’t go away today I’m sorry), a narrative pout of the lips and wink of an adjectival eye.’

Love the book or loathe it at least Hawthorne was being up front about what you were going to get. Either your novel has a natural beauty all of its own, and beauty after all is in the eye of the beholder, or it doesn’t.  What are you doing exactly by following the 5 tips article on opening paragraphs?  A jaundiced view might call it deception.

Once those first few paragraphs of yours have persuaded the punter to take you to bed for a good night’s read what is it he is going to wake up with the next morning?  Yep, the real you: The question you have to ask yourself, now you have the purchase price in your back pocket is do you care?   Let’s hope the punter isn't Bishop because he will hate you forever 

Keph


----------



## Bishop (Mar 4, 2014)

Kepharel said:


> What are you doing exactly by following the 5 tips article on opening paragraphs?  A jaundiced view might call it deception.



Oh, I'm not advocating for following a list. Any list. I think lists of rules are the antithesis of writing, because it suggests that there's a magic formula. What works for one person doesn't work for the other, including rules. In fact, the only rule I fully endorse for every writer everywhere is something I adapted from the comic Doodle Time(her list was about artists, not writers):

What doesn't make a writer: 
Sitting in Starbucks with a laptop
Talking about obscure authors no one's heard of a scoffing when people say they haven't heard of it
Wearing a fedora

What makes a writer:
Writing

Now that that's out of the way, I never said for the writer to be dishonest, or tailor the first few paragraphs a certain way. I'm just saying that if you read the first few paragraphs of a book, you should get a sense for the writer's style and technique. It's like a trailer for a movie. You can read all the reviews of the film you want, but that trailer is your little snipit of what type of movie, what the scenes and score will be like, what characters there might be. Reviews are someone's opinion that is not yours. Some trailers can be deceiving, and show only the best two minutes of an otherwise horrendous film, or show you only the two action bits of a movie about people talking about doing action things (that annoys me more than anything), but you still take in that information before you make the decision to spend your money on it.

Bishop


----------



## Kepharel (Mar 4, 2014)

You're dead on the money.  Just make allowances for me; I'm Welsh and being an argumentative sod is in my racial genes  It's a well known fact Welshmen could start an argument in a confessional.


----------



## Bishop (Mar 4, 2014)

Kepharel said:


> You're dead on the money.  Just make allowances for me; I'm Welsh and being an argumentative sod is in my racial genes  It's a well known fact Welshmen could start an argument in a confessional.



Hah! The boss at my last job was Welsh, and I'm mostly Irish, so I understand the nature. In fact, he and I once got in an argument about sheep populations in Wales. It wasn't pretty.

Bishop


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Mar 4, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> Okay, well, first off I never said that the buyer purchases the first book he picks up.



Ummm...neither did I. I said that (and from what I read you said this as well) that he is going to buy the first one that really grabs his attention.



> More likely, he picks up 4 or 5 books and reads the first couple of sentences to see which grab him.



Right. I said that too.

Now, the examples you gave are good ones. BUT, the problem with your argument is that you tailored the second example to what you would want to read. Wouldn't that be what the reader would be looking for as well? But, he doesn't have the option of changing the words to suit himself like you just did. 

Like I said, I'm probably not the best person to be trying to write out examples of what I'm trying to get across because I haven't been able to write anything in quite some time and my prose is very rusty right now. But, of the two examples I gave, the way I presented them, either one would work to get the readers attention. Which one he decides to go with would be entirely dependent on his individual taste in writing style.


----------



## Bishop (Mar 4, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> For example
> Given a choice of between starting the book with 1.) the protagonist being shot at or 2.) the protagonist receiving a death threat from an unidentified source who knows the protagonist in which the death threat states that the protagonist will be killed if he does 'X', the second option makes for a far better intro.



I think what Bowman has been trying to get at (and correct me if I'm wrong, Bowman) is that this statement is entirely contingent on the quality of the writing as well as the reader's personal preference. A scene can be a great concept or idea, but have terrible writing. Inversely, if we assume that both scenes are written with comparable quality, between the two I'd rather see the gunfight. A gunfight is action, I can enjoy that. A death threat against someone I have no emotional investment in yet does nothing for me. It's impossible to quantify these things, because they're based in entirely subjective opinions and concepts.

Bishop

PS, Bowman: Every time I look at one of your posts, I imagine that baby sitting at the computer typing it out.


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Mar 4, 2014)

Bishop said:


> I think what Bowman has been trying to get at (and correct me if I'm wrong, Bowman) is that this statement is entirely contingent on the quality of the writing as well as the reader's personal preference. A scene can be a great concept or idea, but have terrible writing. Inversely, if we assume that both scenes are written with comparable quality, between the two I'd rather see the gunfight. A gunfight is action, I can enjoy that. A death threat against someone I have no emotional investment in yet does nothing for me. It's impossible to quantify these things, because they're based in entirely subjective opinions and concepts.



That's pretty much it. Justin said, at one point, that the reader has to care about the MC. I agree with that. But, as you pointed out, that early on in the story you really can't get invested in the character enough to make that a major point in deciding whether or not to buy the book. 




> PS, Bowman: Every time I look at one of your posts, I imagine that baby sitting at the computer typing it out.



That is my son Gabriel. He's almost 3 now, but I really like that picture and the one that I have in my profile.

There are times when I am pretty sure I would actually be better off letting him do the writing.


----------



## Justin Rocket (Mar 4, 2014)

Bishop said:


> A gunfight is action, I can enjoy that.



In my opinion, a gunfight between two characters the reader is not emotionally invested in isn't very interesting (see the Transformers movies as examples).

Mystery is almost always about characters of whom we lack critical information.  Mystery is -designed- to get a reader hooked on characters the reader knows little about.  Action is less so.


----------



## Terry D (Mar 4, 2014)

In reading over this thread (a really good one by BTW) I'm struck by a couple of things. The first being the extremely narrow definition of 'action' being used to describe books that open with action. When the suggestion is made to begin Chapter One with action, the person making that suggestion isn't necessarily talking about gunfights and car chases. Action can be a subtle as opening with a couple having a disagreement over breakfast, or a salesman knocking on a door. Lethargy is Bob waking up, showering, shaving, dropping his morning deuce, and then fixing coffee before sitting down and getting in an argument with Shelia. Readers want to learn about characters while they are in motion (physically, or emotionally), they don't want a scene-setting build-up of setting and mood. Which brings me to the second point I seen in this thread. Readers today have less time for 'discretionary input' (reading, game playing, TV, music, movies, etc.) and more options than ever before. Back when writers like Hawthorne, Hugo, Dickens,and the like wrote wordy, flowery openings and long, detailed descriptive passages, their readers were not only content to spend hours and days letting a story develop, they actually liked it that way. Our culture is too fast paced and sound-bite oriented to put up with that stlye. That doesn't make 600 words about a door bad writing, just writing for a different readership.


----------



## Bishop (Mar 4, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> In my opinion, a gunfight between two characters the reader is not emotionally invested in isn't very interesting (see the Transformers movies as examples).
> 
> Mystery is almost always about characters of whom we lack critical information. Mystery is -designed- to get a reader hooked on characters the reader knows little about. Action is less so.



Some people love mindless action. The Expendables 2 is one of my favorite movies. Action can hook people as much as mystery can--that's why they're also their own different genres. Each affords something to a certain audience. Sometimes they overlap, sometimes they don't.

Also, a gunfight has its own mysteries. 

"The bullets rained down, seemingly from every direction. Paul ducked down into his car, wedging himself below the rear seats. He thrust his hand into the sticky place underneath his driver's seat and pulled his snub-nose revolver from between fallen and forgotten french fries. Once armed he felt better, but still terrified by the unending downpour of bullets pelting the sides of his used 1994 Chevy Corsica. Just as he heard a few of the weapons stop, possibly to reload, he could hear himself think again. _This is why I never go to Shell stations anymore!_"

Questions are raised! Who is Paul? If he's some kind of spy or soldier worth shooting, why the hell is he driving a '94 Corsica with french fries fallen between the seats? Who's shooting him, and why? And I mean, really, aren't we all a little sick of Shell's supposedly higher technology gasoline? I still don't care about Paul. He's done little to endear me to him, showed me nothing of his character except his own sarcastic mind and poor taste in automobiles, and I have no reason to root for him. But I want to keep reading, not only to see what happens, but to figure out how all those things fit together.

Bishop

Edit: Also, bear in mind that as bad as they were, SOMEONE out there was very emotionally invested in the Transformers movies. VERY emotionally invested.


----------



## Jeko (Mar 4, 2014)

> Some people love mindless action.



While I'm not one of them, I definitely agree with this. While mystery can draw us towards an unknown character, action tells us that they're the kind of people that do stuff; that we have to chase them across each page because they're never going to let up in their constant well-paced series of activities. Action also helps us understand characters that we don't need to understand; maybe 'guy over there' doesn't have a plot line, but the fact he's shooting at us makes him important. 

Emotional action must also be stressed as being just as important; similarly, since all action is designed and choreographed by the writer to engage the reader, I wouldn't call any of it 'mindless'. It's a term I'd be happy for a reader to apply, but I wouldn't aim for it myself. I don't know how a writer can write anything mindlessly.


----------



## Bishop (Mar 4, 2014)

Terry D said:


> In reading over this thread (a really good one by BTW) I'm struck by a couple of things. The first being the extremely narrow definition of 'action' being used to describe books that open with action. When the suggestion is made to begin Chapter One with action, the person making that suggestion isn't necessarily talking about gunfights and car chases. Action can be a subtle as opening with a couple having a disagreement over breakfast, or a salesman knocking on a door. Lethargy is Bob waking up, showering, shaving, dropping his morning deuce, and then fixing coffee before sitting down and getting in an argument with Shelia. Readers want to learn about characters while they are in motion (physically, or emotionally), they don't want a scene-setting build-up of setting and mood. Which brings me to the second point I seen in this thread. Readers today have less time for 'discretionary input' (reading, game playing, TV, music, movies, etc.) and more options than ever before. Back when writers like Hawthorne, Hugo, Dickens,and the like wrote wordy, flowery openings and long, detailed descriptive passages, their readers were not only content to spend hours and days letting a story develop, they actually liked it that way. Our culture is too fast paced and sound-bite oriented to put up with that stlye. That doesn't make 600 words about a door bad writing, just writing for a different readership.



I love Herman Melville, Dostoevsky, Charles Dickens so wordiness and older literature are not problems with me. It's Hawthorne. I hate Hawthorne like the flower hates winter.  I've studied lit for a long time in my life, and no matter what people tell me about Hawthorne, I hate him. It's unbridled hatred, coated with a healthy dose of sugary passion. Just to clarify 

Bishop

Edit: Also wanted to add that I completely agree that action is not necessarily external conflict with guns, but could be internal conflict, or external conflict with emotions, or even just a very high stakes game of checkers. All works the same as conflict. I was using the guns example in reference to Rocket's post.


----------



## Jeko (Mar 4, 2014)

I think mystery and action should go hand-in-hand; you should have 1) the characters in motion and 2) a reason for the reader to follow them. As long as you keep these two things, even with less-tight-than-it-could-be prose, you can take a reader through your book. That, I think, should be a writer's first goal; to ensure the whole story is told. Secondly, they should make it a story worth telling - but the hooking of the reader is arguably the most important aspect.


----------



## Justin Rocket (Mar 4, 2014)

Terry D said:


> In reading over this thread (a really good one by BTW) I'm struck by a couple of things. The first being the extremely narrow definition of 'action' being used to describe books that open with action. When the suggestion is made to begin Chapter One with action, the person making that suggestion isn't necessarily talking about gunfights and car chases. Action can be a subtle as opening with a couple having a disagreement over breakfast, or a salesman knocking on a door. Lethargy is Bob waking up, showering, shaving, dropping his morning deuce, and then fixing coffee before sitting down and getting in an argument with Shelia. Readers want to learn about characters while they are in motion (physically, or emotionally), they don't want a scene-setting build-up of setting and mood. Which brings me to the second point I seen in this thread. Readers today have less time for 'discretionary input' (reading, game playing, TV, music, movies, etc.) and more options than ever before. Back when writers like Hawthorne, Hugo, Dickens,and the like wrote wordy, flowery openings and long, detailed descriptive passages, their readers were not only content to spend hours and days letting a story develop, they actually liked it that way. Our culture is too fast paced and sound-bite oriented to put up with that stlye. That doesn't make 600 words about a door bad writing, just writing for a different readership.



I take it as a given that when characters are introduced in a story, they will be doing something.  Your broad definition of "action" reduces the statement "characters should be introduced with action" to a truism.  I don't think truisms carry any information.  Its kinda like saying "tee shirts should have color".  Well, of course tee shirts should have color!  I've never heard of a colorless (i.e. invisible) tee shirt.

I restrict the term "action" to mean "activity intended to get the adrenalin pumping".


----------



## Justin Rocket (Mar 4, 2014)

Bishop said:


> The Expendables 2 is one of my favorite movies.



Remember that the Expendables is all about characters you already know and are already invested in before the movie even starts.  That's because all the characters are self-consciously based on 'roid rage movies of circa 1985.  You know who Stallone is.  He's the same Xeroxed character he's always been in these movies.  The same goes for everyone else.


----------



## Bishop (Mar 4, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> Remember that the Expendables is all about characters you already know and are already invested in before the movie even starts.  That's because all the characters are self-consciously based on 'roid rage movies of circa 1985.  You know who Stallone is.  He's the same Xeroxed character he's always been in these movies.  The same goes for everyone else.



I'm not entirely sure how that pertains to the original discussion. Yes they're the same characters, that's the idea. Those movies were mindless action in the eighties and still are today. Consequently, I loved them as much in their original form as in the newer format.


----------



## Jon M (Mar 4, 2014)

Good writers can do whatever the hell they want in the opening paragraph.


----------



## Phoenix Raven (Mar 5, 2014)

Thank you KyleColorado for your opinion. It help set my mind at ease knowing that other writers may take much longer before introducing the protagonist. I sure don't want to rush the pace of my novel.

This is my first time ever writing a novel. I reached 60,000 words with 19 chapters, and I feel that is a good volume for a first novel. I'm currently waiting on my friend who is editing for me. While I don't expect to become a best seller, I at least wanted to finish what I started because writing a fantasy fiction novel has always been my childhood dream.


----------



## Sam (Mar 5, 2014)

People are misunderstanding what is meant by 'action'. As Terry said, action does not have to be gunfights, explosions, and general chaos. The term is being loosely used to mean "start the story with something _interesting_". Very few people want to read the history of a town at the start of a novel. It's boring at the best of times, but doubly so at the beginning. Action can be something as simple as waking up in the middle of the night to the sound of floorboards creaking. You're giving your character a problem that s/he has to investigate. _That _is action.


----------



## Kevin (Mar 5, 2014)

*


----------



## Terry D (Mar 5, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> I restrict the term "action" to mean "activity intended to get the adrenalin pumping".



Restrict it however you want for the purposes of your own writing, but, in the context of general writing advice, such a restriction doesn't apply.


----------



## Staff Deployment (Mar 5, 2014)

In the strictest sense, action is just verbs!

_John brushed his teeth. Suddenly, he heard a gunshot! He loaded the wikipedia page for gunfight survival strategies._


----------



## Kyle R (Mar 5, 2014)

Yup!

In fiction, "action" simply refers to a character (or characters) physically doing something (or, using "verbs", as Staff Deployment accurately put it). It could be anything from brushing teeth to leaping off a moving train, to watering a plant.

It's one of the *five narrative modes*: 



action
description
dialogue
thought
exposition

It might help to think of action as "physical movement". A person yawning and stretching still falls under the category of "action", even though it may not seem that exciting. :encouragement:


----------



## Terry D (Mar 5, 2014)

KyleColorado said:


> Yup!
> 
> In fiction, "action" simply refers to a character (or characters) physically doing something (or, using "verbs", as Staff Deployment accurately put it). It could be anything from brushing teeth to leaping off a moving train, to watering a plant.
> 
> ...



But that's not what the advice to start a book or story with action means. It means narrative action, something that engages the reader rather than just informing him/her.


----------



## Kyle R (Mar 5, 2014)

We're in agreement here, Terry. An opening should definitely engage the reader. :encouragement:

I'm just pointing out the correct usage of the term "action" (at least in the sense I learned it). Ideally, an opener will involve some sort of interesting action (if it's an action opener), but the term itself applies to anything physical.

Examples of different openers (using the different narrative modes):

*Action Opener*: Carver Landstrom swung his legs over the railing, took a deep breath, and leapt off the third story ledge.

*Description Opener*: The parking structure leaned to the side, its support columns charred and dented.

*Dialogue Opener*: "Get out!" the woman shouted, her eyes wild and bulging. 

*Thought Opener*: The bastard was following me—I was sure of it.

*Exposition Opener*: The delivery man hadn't returned for three days.


----------



## Jeko (Mar 5, 2014)

> In fiction, "action" simply refers to a character (or characters) physically doing something (or, using "verbs", as Staff Deployment accurately put it). It could be anything from brushing teeth to leaping off a moving train, to watering a plant.
> 
> It's one of the *five narrative modes:
> 
> ...



I thought the mode was _report of action_; the narrator saying that something is happening or has happened. Most action gets transmitted this way, but the distinction also allows dialogue to be a form of action.

I tend to keep to four narrative modes, though:

-Dialogue
-Report of action
-Description
-Comment

The division into five may be more useful; dividing into four, I find, helps to distinguish between mimesis and diegesis more.


----------



## David Gordon Burke (Mar 5, 2014)

Has anyone ever heard the story about Elton John / Bernie Taupin and their writing process? Basically, if it takes them longer than an hour to write the song, they throw it out. (How much truth there is to this is debatable) 

I get an idea. I let it bounce around in my head. I crank up mindmap and plot it out. I pick character names. I decide on settings. I research. I do a pile of other chores. I decide POV. blah, blah, blah.

I sit down at the computer and look at a blank screen.
I write the title page.
I write the copyright page.
I write the dedication. 

If I get to the point where I write 'Chapter 1' and then nothing happens within five minutes, I pour a coffee. 
I stare at the screen a bit more.
Then a flash comes over me. I knew I wanted to start the story at point X but how? With what words? 
They come. It flows. I don't think about it too much. 
Somewhere in there I might 'ask that question' that only gets answered if you read to the end. There might or might not be a bit of irony or poetry or action etc. I try to stay as far away from back-story as I possibly can for the moment...especially in the first chapter. (didn't in the past and got bogged right out of the gate) 
Try to show and not tell.
Try to stay away from descriptions in general. 

The moral of the story is that if I think about all those rules and the wisdom of the blockbuster breakout novel and all the advice I've read then what I write comes out as pretentious garbage that doesn't work. 

Who knows what the rules are or what is the best possible way to hook your reader? In the end, you have something, it works or it doesn't. Maybe you can identify what that something is and maybe you can't. Still, it works or it doesn't. Period. One of the best damn ways to guarantee that it doesn't work IMHO is to strip it of its natural, organic essence and overthink, overanalyse and overdo it. 

David Gordon Burke


----------



## Jeko (Mar 5, 2014)

> Basically, if it takes them longer than an hour to write the song, they throw it out. (How much truth there is to this is debatable)



I think this was Stephen King's process, except he gave it six months.



> The moral of the story is that if I think about all those rules and the wisdom of the blockbuster breakout novel and all the advice I've read then what I write comes out as pretentious garbage that doesn't work... One of the best damn ways to guarantee that it doesn't work IMHO is to strip it of its natural, organic essence and overthink, overanalyse and overdo it.



This is what I advocate; while all the advice you get can be applied in various ways to various levels of usefulness, thinking about all of it while writing will distract you from what matters - the characters. It can even dehumanize them.


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Mar 5, 2014)

This is one reason that I am proud to be a "pantser". And yes, I wear that badge with pride.

I know that I am going to be going back through my story after I type "The End" and fleshing things out and making it better. I will put in all the effort to make it as good as it can be, and still stay within my own personal style. I am sure there will be people who look at it and think that it isn't very good because I'm just not their style.

 But at this point in the process, I can't let myself get bogged down by a bunch of "I must..." and "I was told..." stuff.


----------



## David Gordon Burke (Mar 6, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> This is one reason that I am proud to be a "pantser".



The truth is that the 'Either Or' black and white categories that many have ascribed to writing methodology here at WF is faulty.  
It's probably all shades of grey.  
Pantsers probably have some inkling of a plan and planners will always improvise and pants to a certain degree.
The horrifying robotic and pretentious method for either camp would be concerning oneself with all the RULES, GUIDELINES and AGENT recommendations instead of justs writting it.  

David Gordon Burke
PS.  Didn't want to start nor interested in a large debate on how much or to what extent pantsers actually plan.  Not the point.  Boring.


----------



## Jeko (Mar 6, 2014)

> It's probably all shades of grey.



Definitely all shades of gray; else, a forum like this wouldn't be useful. If writers lost their individualism, they would only be able to write two kinds of fiction. The variety of literature - and novel openings - certifies that no two writers are the same.


----------



## Justin Rocket (Mar 6, 2014)

Terry D said:


> Restrict it however you want for the purposes of your own writing, but, in the context of general writing advice, such a restriction doesn't apply.



In the context of general writing advice, the extremely broad definition of 'action' you use is worthless. Even the most inept writer will introduce their characters when those characters are doing something, if only pondering, or gazing.


----------



## Justin Rocket (Mar 6, 2014)

David Gordon Burke said:


> The truth is that the 'Either Or' black and white categories that many have ascribed to writing methodology here at WF is faulty.
> It's probably all shades of grey.
> Pantsers probably have some inkling of a plan and planners will always improvise and pants to a certain degree.
> The horrifying robotic and pretentious method for either camp would be concerning oneself with all the RULES, GUIDELINES and AGENT recommendations instead of justs writting it.
> ...



If a person intends to make a living as a writer, they need to pay attention to the rules, guidelines, and agent recommendations.

Figuring out how to be creative within the rules, guidelines, and agent recommendations is a big part of what art is.  So much so that poets have even added more rules in the various poetic styles (ballads, sonnets, etc.)


----------



## Bishop (Mar 6, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> If a person intends to make a living as a writer, they need to pay attention to the rules, guidelines, and agent recommendations.
> 
> Figuring out how to be creative within the rules, guidelines, and agent recommendations is a big part of what art is.  So much so that poets have even added more rules in the various poetic styles (ballads, sonnets, etc.)



Agent recommendations? Maybe. Rules and guidelines? Not so much, methinks. Just because I think there are no rules, just ideas of what someone thinks works, when really it only works for them. Interesting you mention poetry, because while ballads and sonnets and haikus and whatnots have rigid structure, many of the greatest poems are great because they ignore structure.

Also, poetry equals not commercial success. I've yet to hear about a Professional Poet. They might exist, but I'd be shocked.

Bishop


----------



## Morkonan (Mar 6, 2014)

In my opinion, there is only one "Rule" -* Keep the Reader reading.*

That's it. You do it as effectively as possible, using whatever means are both necessary and appropriate. If it's "Asking a question" then do it. If you have to go all Lovecraftian on 'em in order to impress the yokels with your "Command of the Language", do it. If you have to sway them with your Dickensian charm, do it. If it's opening up with an "Action" piece, do it.

I think it's more a matter of writing to the Reader than it is trying to follow some sort of a set of "Rules." Yes, there are things that one must do on the first page, or early enough to count as fairly quick. But, how one does that is not only a matter of writing to the Reader, it's a matter of Voice and Style. It's also somewhat a matter of what a particular genre-lover expects. What's the average "Adventure Fiction" or "Military Science Fiction" sort of Reader going to desire in that opening paragraph? If some guy is waxing poetic about his long-lost love interest... Well, that's just not going to cut it. Sure, if it's done well enough, the writer might impress somebody into reading another paragraph. Maybe two paragraphs, if they were prosaic enough and mentioned "boobs"...

I also don't believe in the apostasy of just "Write the story." I believe fervently in Writing to the Reader, else the story won't be as likely to be read. I'd hate relying on the holistic qualities of an entire tale in order to grab the attentions of a Reader. That might take several hundred pages and, by then, the Reader would have tossed the story away or their mind-numbingly bored enough to keep reading until they happened to find something interesting. If one is writing to the Reader instead of just trying to tell the story, half the problems of an opening paragraph will take care of themselves.


----------



## Deleted member 49710 (Mar 6, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> If a person intends to make a living as a writer, they need to pay attention to the rules, guidelines, and agent recommendations.
> 
> Figuring out how to be creative within the rules, guidelines, and agent recommendations is a big part of what art is.  So much so that poets have even added more rules in the various poetic styles (ballads, sonnets, etc.)


The poets are just raking in the dough, aren't they, with their sonnets and their ballads! Counting syllables means counting cash, kids. Oh except wait. Most poets don't make a living off writing alone. And the ones that do, nowadays, are mostly not writing sonnets.

What's that you say? It's irrelevant because we're talking about novels? Yes. Yes, it is.



			
				Jon M said:
			
		

> Good writers can do whatever the hell they want in the opening paragraph.



Yep. 

Personally, usually what happens is I'm typing along, at some point I write something that makes me think, _A-ha, that is a good opener._ And then I copy and paste that part to the beginning and do whatever restructuring is necessary. Don't feel much need for a checklist to verify; when I write something good I know.


----------



## Terry D (Mar 6, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> In the context of general writing advice, the extremely broad definition of 'action' you use is worthless. Even the most inept writer will introduce their characters when those characters are doing something, if only pondering, or gazing.



My point was anything but broad. I never said, or implied, that a story should open with a character just "doing something". In fact, if you actually read that post, you will see that I explain that "just doing something" doesn't qualify as action in terms of openings. But, if you are too invested in defining action as sword-fights and ninja attacks to understand, then there's noting left to say.


----------



## Justin Rocket (Mar 6, 2014)

Bishop said:


> Agent recommendations? Maybe. Rules and guidelines? Not so much, methinks. Just because I think there are no rules, just ideas of what someone thinks works, when really it only works for them. Interesting you mention poetry, because while ballads and sonnets and haikus and whatnots have rigid structure, many of the greatest poems are great because they ignore structure.
> 
> Also, poetry equals not commercial success. I've yet to hear about a Professional Poet. They might exist, but I'd be shocked.
> 
> Bishop




Rules and guidelines need to be paid attention to because they are things the publishing house minions will be looking for when deciding whether to publish.
Most of the greatest poems have structure.  Those that don't are black swans.

btw, while most poets don't make a living being poets, most novelists don't either.


----------



## Sam (Mar 6, 2014)

*Action *(noun) ~ "The process of doing something". From the Oxford English dictionary. 

Doesn't get any more clear-cut than that.


----------



## Justin Rocket (Mar 6, 2014)

Terry D said:


> My point was anything but broad. I never said, or implied, that a story should open with a character just "doing something". In fact, if you actually read that post, you will see that I explain that "just doing something" doesn't qualify as action in terms of openings. But, if you are too invested in defining action as sword-fights and ninja attacks to understand, then there's noting left to say.



You defined 'action' as 


> Action can be a subtle as opening with a couple having a disagreement over breakfast, or a salesman knocking on a door. Lethargy is Bob waking up, showering, shaving, dropping his morning deuce, and then fixing coffee before sitting down and getting in an argument with Shelia. Readers want to learn about characters while they are in motion (physically, or emotionally), they don't want a scene-setting build-up of setting and mood.



which means you equate it with 'doing something'.


----------



## Bishop (Mar 6, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> Rules and guidelines need to be paid attention to because they are things the publishing house minions will be looking for when deciding whether to publish.



My point is that I've yet to see a magic list of rules that encompasses exactly what gets published and what doesn't. Sometimes, the people looking at these works just plain don't enjoy them, no matter what "rules" they follow. Then again, when a "rule" is broken, but the work is good, they don't care. They care about what sells. There are stories that get published and find massive commercial success that not only ignore these invisible "rules" but also ignore good writing. The only rules in writing are grammar, and they were meant to be broken.

Bishop


----------



## Justin Rocket (Mar 6, 2014)

Bishop said:


> My point is that I've yet to see a magic list of rules that encompasses exactly what gets published and what doesn't. Sometimes, the people looking at these works just plain don't enjoy them, no matter what "rules" they follow. Then again, when a "rule" is broken, but the work is good, they don't care. They care about what sells. There are stories that get published and find massive commercial success that not only ignore these invisible "rules" but also ignore good writing. The only rules in writing are grammar, and they were meant to be broken.
> 
> Bishop



Publication is kinda like weather forecasting.  But that doesn't mean there aren't rules.  It is all about playing the odds and getting the odds in one's favor.  Look at Hollywood.  The rules in play there are very obvious.  Yet, writers who have already established themselves can pull off stuff like Pulp Fiction.


----------



## Bishop (Mar 6, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> Publication is kinda like weather forecasting.  But that doesn't mean there aren't rules.  It is all about playing the odds and getting the odds in one's favor.  Look at Hollywood.  The rules in play there are very obvious.  Yet, writers who have already established themselves can pull off stuff like Pulp Fiction.



I honestly can say that the rules are _not_ obvious. There are motifs and archetypes and 'tropes', widely used things that often work, but there're more like tools. And what you say about pulp fiction is entirely untrue. E.L. James wrote Twilight fan fiction and is now one of the most commercially successful authors in our generation. Not to mention Stephanie Meyer herself...

I'd really like to see a list of rules that dramatically increases the odds of publication. Because if there were, a _lot_ more writers would be traditionally published; it'd be easy, just follow the rules!


----------



## Terry D (Mar 6, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> You defined 'action' as
> 
> which means you equate it with 'doing something'.[/COLOR]





> Action can be a subtle as opening with a couple having a disagreement over breakfast, or a salesman knocking on a door. *Lethargy is Bob waking up, showering, shaving, dropping his morning deuce, and then fixing coffee before sitting down and getting in an argument with Shelia. Readers want to learn about characters while they are in motion (physically, or emotionally), they don't want a scene-setting build-up of setting and mood*.



I've emboldened the pertinent part, which you seem intent on missing, or ignoring. (BTW, lethargy kinda-sorta = inaction.)


----------



## Justin Rocket (Mar 6, 2014)

Terry D said:


> I've emboldened the pertinent part, which you seem intent on missing, or ignoring. (BTW, lethargy kinda-sorta = inaction.)




Lethargy means "having a lack of enthusiasm" or "sluggishness".  It doesn't "kinda-sorta = inaction", just low-energy action.


----------



## Staff Deployment (Mar 6, 2014)

_shots fired_

Changing the subject entirely, lethargy is difficult to accurately express in words! It's hard to have a lethargic protagonist in a story, because protagonists rely on being an active participant in the unfolding of events.


----------



## Justin Rocket (Mar 6, 2014)

Bishop said:


> I honestly can say that the rules are _not_ obvious. There are motifs and archetypes and 'tropes', widely used things that often work, but there're more like tools. And what you say about pulp fiction is entirely untrue. E.L. James wrote Twilight fan fiction and is now one of the most commercially successful authors in our generation. Not to mention Stephanie Meyer herself...
> 
> I'd really like to see a list of rules that dramatically increases the odds of publication. Because if there were, a _lot_ more writers would be traditionally published; it'd be easy, just follow the rules!



Tarantino wrote the screenplay for Pulp Fiction.  He's an established writer in Hollywood.


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Mar 6, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> If a person intends to make a living as a writer, they need to pay attention to the rules, guidelines, and agent recommendations.
> 
> Figuring out how to be creative within the rules, guidelines, and agent recommendations is a big part of what art is.  So much so that poets have even added more rules in the various poetic styles (ballads, sonnets, etc.)



My girlfriend, who is an award winning artist, begs to differ. And yes, I actually showed her the above post specifically _because_ she is an artist.

She says that art is an expression of oneself and is not bound by any rules. 

Granted, there are certain things that a writer needs to do in his/her writing. There is no real debate about that. However, constraining yourself with the consideration of "What would an agent say?" while in the process of creation would seem to be stifling and somewhat counterproductive. It has the potential to turn the act of creation into something mechanical rather than flowing directly from the heart and imagination to the page.

Justin, I would never say your way of writing is the incorrect way of doing things. If it works for you, that's great. 

As far as those poets you mentioned...

They created _more rules _because they felt constrained by the ones that were set by the poets before them. If it's good enough for poets, then why would it be a bad thing for a writer to do the same thing?

After all...you said yourself that most novelists don't make a living at it. 

I guess, after I start submitting my novel, when the rejection letters start rolling in, I'll look for ones telling me that I have broken the rules and that's why they can't publish my work. Then I will go back and follow the rules more carefully.


----------



## Justin Rocket (Mar 6, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> My girlfriend, who is an award winning artist, begs to differ. And yes, I actually showed her the above post specifically _because_ she is an artist.
> 
> She says that art is an expression of oneself and is not bound by any rules.
> 
> ...



In the absence of rules, guidelines, and agent recommendations, why is she an award winning artist?  Presumably, she received the award because her art was the best submitted, but what does 'best' even mean in the absence of rules and guidelines?


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Mar 6, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> In the absence of rules, guidelines, and agent recommendations, why is she an award winning artist?  Presumably, she received the award because her art was the best submitted, but what does 'best' even mean in the absence of rules and guidelines?



But that is exactly the point of art. She won the awards for setting her own standards...her own "rules".


----------



## Justin Rocket (Mar 6, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> But that is exactly the point of art. She won the awards for setting her own standards...her own "rules".



Assume, for the sake of clarity, that I agree with you
So, she won the award for doing something every artist does?  She wasn't exceptional?  Awards were handed out the same way they are handed out in the Special Olympics - everybody gets one?


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Mar 6, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> Assume, for the sake of clarity, that I agree with you
> So, she won the award for doing something every artist does?  She wasn't exceptional?  Awards were handed out the same way they are handed out in the Special Olympics - everybody gets one?



Not even close. One artist gets the award.

But what's with the comment about "something every artist does"? 

In your posts, you have pointed out that art is about creation while staying within the rules and guidelines. 

I just told you that wasn't how it works for an artist (and I know this because I _*asked one*_), yet you try to minimize the accomplishments of someone you don't know, _someone who was awarded because she made her own rules_, by equating it to the Special Olympics?

Not cool.


----------



## Bishop (Mar 6, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> Assume, for the sake of clarity, that I agree with you
> So, she won the award for doing something every artist does?  She wasn't exceptional?  Awards were handed out the same way they are handed out in the Special Olympics - everybody gets one?



She won because a group of judges SUBJECTIVELY agreed that hers was the most inspiring/beautiful/emotional piece (not sure exactly what she won, but just saying). 

Art is not judged by a point system, by a set of check marks. It's judged by the emotional reaction and the stimulation of the viewer/reader. And you mention Pulp Fiction the film. I figured you were talking about pulp fiction the literary concept. People who are not established still make pulp films. Tarantino is a rare exception; he's a universally recognized artist. For every Tarantino, there's about a hundred thousand Roger Cormans. They make bad films (intentionally or otherwise) and still get notoriety and fame and money. They still get produced and published. They don't follow rules, or guidlines, they just go and do. They make good art as they see good art. They make what they want, what they know, how they want.

Bishop


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Mar 6, 2014)

Bishop said:


> She won because a group of judges SUBJECTIVELY agreed that hers was the most inspiring/beautiful/emotional piece (not sure exactly what she won, but just saying).



One of her awards (just so that everyone knows I'm not making it up *grin*) was The Governor's Cup in the state of Kentucky.

She also won a scholarship to a nationally known art school but was unable to attend because real life intervened.


----------



## Justin Rocket (Mar 6, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> Not even close. One artist gets the award.
> 
> But what's with the comment about "something every artist does"?
> 
> ...



Why is making one's own rules a basis for granting an award?  There's no guideline which says that art is better if the artist makes her own rules since, as you said, there are no guidelines.


----------



## Bishop (Mar 6, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> Why is making one's own rules a basis for granting an award?  There's no guideline which says that art is better if the artist makes her own rules since, as you said, there are no guidelines.



Exactly. There is no guideline that says that; judging in those situations is _subjective_.


----------



## Justin Rocket (Mar 6, 2014)

Bishop said:


> Exactly. There is no guideline that says that; judging in those situations is _subjective_.



In the absence of any guidelines, judging is _arbitrary_ and as random as rolling dice to see who wins.  I could very easily bring a video of "two girls and a cup" and have as much a chance to win.
But, this assumption that there are no guidelines does not harmonize with what we know of the real world.  In reality, we know that "two girls and a cup" is not on the same level of art as is Van Gogh's _Starry Night._


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Mar 6, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> In the absence of any guidelines, judging is _arbitrary_ and as random as rolling dice to see who wins.  I could very easily bring a video of "two girls and a cup" and have as much a chance to win.



Well..she beat out thousands of other artists from all over the state to win that award. Think what you want. Minimize it if you so choose. The fact is that it is an outstanding accomplishment to have won that particular award.

Let me ask you this...since you are so seemingly dead set on there being rules for everything...

Go look up the "rules" for abstract art and let me know what they are.


----------



## Bishop (Mar 6, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> In the absence of any guidelines, judging is _arbitrary_ and as random as rolling dice to see who wins.  I could very easily bring a video of "two girls and a cup" and have as much a chance to win.



Subjective does not mean random. It literally means: based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions; arbitrary means: based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason

There can be subjective reasoning for a judgment.

This is beginning to get into a full-on debate and is far from the original topic, though, so the mods are probably not going to approve


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Mar 6, 2014)

Bishop said:


> This is beginning to get into a full-on debate and is far from the original topic, though, so the mods are probably not going to approve



True enough. Time to get back to the subject, methinks.


----------



## Justin Rocket (Mar 6, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> Well..she beat out thousands of other artists from all over the state to win that award. Think what you want. Minimize it if you so choose. The fact is that it is an outstanding accomplishment to have won that particular award.
> 
> Let me ask you this...since you are so seemingly dead set on there being rules for everything...
> 
> Go look up the "rules" for abstract art and let me know what they are.



I'm very impressed with what she accomplished, but she could have accomplished it only if there are guidelines for art.
Or can you explain how one art item can be better than another in the absence of guidelines?


----------



## Justin Rocket (Mar 6, 2014)

Bishop said:


> Subjective does not mean random. It literally means: based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions; arbitrary means: based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason
> 
> There can be subjective reasoning for a judgment.
> 
> This is beginning to get into a full-on debate and is far from the original topic, though, so the mods are probably not going to approve



I totally agree that subjective does not mean random.  As a former systems security architect, I let my subjective opinion persuade me on many occasions.  But, that's because I was reviewing nonlinear designs and my subconscious already knew what the guidelines were.


----------



## Bishop (Mar 6, 2014)

It's a subjective feeling. You just "feel" it. That's what art is supposed to do, be it literature, art, music, movies. It makes you feel.

That's why one opening paragraph can grab your pulse and make you feel something for a character you have no knowledge of, and other's cant. They just appeal to YOU. One way or the next.


----------



## bookmasta (Mar 7, 2014)

For as much discussion there is on all the literary devices that can be used in a paragraph, I simply stick with what Sam mentioned earlier, as long it hooks the reader. If it does that, then mission accomplished.


----------



## popsprocket (Mar 7, 2014)

Wow this argument is tired and extremely familiar. Keep this thread on the original topic.


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Mar 7, 2014)

popsprocket said:


> Wow this argument is tired and extremely familiar. Keep this thread on the original topic.



We've already been warned, thanks.


----------



## Jeko (Mar 7, 2014)

A distinction should also be made, IMO, between what the opening should accomplish overall and what the writer should be considering at each stage of its creation and refinement. Of course, the stages will be different for every writer. For me, I have to ensure that I am only thinking about the characters when I start writing a story. If I think about anything else, I get concerned about the troubles of tomorrow and forget about the importance of today and the moment that I'm trying to throw the reader into. This includes the thought that I might try to make a living out of this opening scene; it's irrelevant to the story, and so not considered.

I also refuse to change the opening, even if it's grade-A bullplop, until the first draft is done. But then, that's my rule for any scene.


----------

