# Intelligence, morality and psychopathy.



## MrPizzle (Dec 8, 2013)

I can't remember where I read it but some facts got my attention. High intelligence is obviously good, but apparently there are downsides to it. The cost of intelligence is your morality.

Can anyone confirm this for me? I'm trying to find articles on this, I'm just wondering that if a sci-fi universe that has humans using genetic engineering that boosts the average intelligence to near genius levels and have been doing this for almost two centuries, could this see an increase in psychopathy and other various mental issues like narcissism and perhaps megalomania? 

Could the majority of humans having high intelligence actually be a bad thing? Wouldn't there be an increase in serial killers? Could humans end up becoming a race of psychopaths? What are the links between intelligence and mental health?


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## Elvenswordsman (Dec 8, 2013)

I doubt it. I'm sure these things occur relative to the IQ.

Increase the IQs, someone is still the mean IQ, the lower and upper end. I would bet that it would be similar percentages, or perhaps less (if they're so intelligent, they've realized the ability to rear children without these traits).


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## Lewdog (Dec 8, 2013)

Well people with high intelligence tend to lean towards scientific thinking verses a theological one.  They also tend to make decisions based on probability than what would be the best morally.


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## Elvenswordsman (Dec 8, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> Well people with high intelligence tend to lean towards scientific thinking verses a theological one.  They also tend to make decisions based on probability than what would be the best morally.



Lew - not really. Your argument isn't overly valid. Scientific thinking vs Theological? That fact vs religion, I don't think morals are involved in that.

Intelligent people appear normal when they're functioning at their peaks. The "intelligent people" you're talking about are overly influenced by the "rational mind", which is a characteristic of those unable to deal with emotions.

Intelligence does not mean unemotional, their balance between rational mind, emotional mind, and wise mind do.

OP - your story could revolve around a push towards being totally rational among humans. Our nature dictates that this is something that could lead to dehumanization, which of course is a path to psychopathy.


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## Lewdog (Dec 8, 2013)

Elvenswordsman said:


> Lew - not really. Your argument isn't overly valid. Scientific thinking vs Theological? That fact vs religion, I don't think morals are involved in that.
> 
> Intelligent people appear normal when they're functioning at their peaks. The "intelligent people" you're talking about are overly influenced by the "rational mind", which is a characteristic of those unable to deal with emotions.
> 
> ...



If you go by what the OP asked, he is talking the highest of the intelligence scale, which many of whom tend to be stunted emotionally because of their intelligence growing up and functioning in a world that is unable to as a whole match their level of communication.


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## Elvenswordsman (Dec 8, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> If you go by what the OP asked, he is talking the highest of the intelligence scale, which many of whom tend to be stunted emotionally because of their intelligence growing up and functioning in a world that is unable to as a whole match their level of communication.



What you're talking about is Asperger syndrome. Is your contention that the most intelligent people must suffer from Aspergers? I should hope not, as there is no scientific correlation between the two.


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## Lewdog (Dec 8, 2013)

Elvenswordsman said:


> What you're talking about is Asperger syndrome. Is your contention that the most intelligent people must suffer from Aspergers? I should hope not, as there is no scientific correlation between the two.



No, I'm just talking about Nurture verses Nature.  It has become an ever increasing problem that children can't live the life of a child much anymore because parents are in competition to have the smartest or best athlete child they know.  Any child that shows just a bit of high intelligence is suddenly fast tracked and they don't get to live a normal childhood.  

Can't you see how hard it is to get along with me?  I must be a genius.  :coffeescreen:


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## Elvenswordsman (Dec 8, 2013)

Again, you're relying on an argument that is invalid. One does not suffer a stunted upbringing simply because ones parents expect them to perform.

Let's just leave it to fact, and remain on the OPs question -

If the level of intelligence were to raise substantially, I believe our technologies would as well - our ability to rear children, the aids we would have to aid children in their growth, the ability to diagnose social issues, etc.

That's a logical assumption. People wouldn't act less intelligently as intelligence rose.


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## Lewdog (Dec 8, 2013)

Elvenswordsman said:


> Again, you're relying on an argument that is invalid. One does not suffer a stunted upbringing simply because ones parents expect them to perform.
> 
> Let's just leave it to fact, and remain on the OPs question -
> 
> ...




I'm not making assumptions.  These are facts based on stats.  Highly intelligent people do have more social problems.  They have a much higher percentage of having depression than average intelligence people.



> However, high IQ is not always beneficial. Terman’s study of the highest IQ group among his cohort revealed that more than one third grew up to be ‘maladjusted’ in some way: for example having significant problems of anxiety, depression, personality disorder or experience of ‘nervous breakdowns’.



http://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/2009/05/disadvantages-of-high-iq.html

I can quote this same information from dozens of links and sources.  My point isn't just assumptions, as I've studied this in college, and they are valid.

Let me also point out in that link a section that also backs up something I mentioned earlier:



> 2. Atheism
> 
> Something similar applies to atheism. Sidis was an atheist, and it has been pretty conclusively demonstrated by Richard Lynn that increasing IQ is correlated with increasing likelihood of atheism. The most famous atheists – like Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett – are ferociously intelligent individuals.


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## Elvenswordsman (Dec 8, 2013)

The OP isn't asking about current trends Lewdog. The "facts" I'm referring to are in reference to the OPs question regarding a highly intelligent society.

I'd also reference you to the multitude of articles in psychology journals that would indicate that majority of people suffer from every malady known to man, just on different levels, and that they tend to show more pronouncedly in intelligent individuals because of self-reflection and introspection.

Please tell me you're not trying to relate atheism to a lack of moral behaviour...


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## Lewdog (Dec 8, 2013)

Elvenswordsman said:


> The OP isn't asking about current trends Lewdog. The "facts" I'm referring to are in reference to the OPs question regarding a highly intelligent society.
> 
> I'd also reference you to the multitude of articles in psychology journals that would indicate that majority of people suffer from every malady known to man, just on different levels, and that they tend to show more pronouncedly in intelligent individuals because of self-reflection and introspection.
> 
> Please tell me you're not trying to relate atheism to a lack of moral behaviour...



I'm answering the OP's first question: 





> I can't remember where I read it but some facts got my attention. High intelligence is obviously good, but apparently there are downsides to it. The cost of intelligence is your morality.



I did not say that Atheist are less moral people because of their intelligence, I said they make decisions based on probability and sometimes that might not be looked at as morally correct.  ie. sacrificing the life of one person to possibly save hundreds.



> I'd also reference you to the multitude of articles in psychology journals that would indicate that majority of people suffer from every malady known to man, just on different levels, and that they tend to show more pronouncedly in intelligent individuals because of self-reflection and introspection.



That is a silly defense to make that everyone has problems but only the ones with higher intelligence have it worse.  That's like someone with 121/81 BP telling another person with 150/100 BP to suck it up because they have high blood pressure too.  You have to take illnesses and rate them based on how they restrict someone's way of life.


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## Elvenswordsman (Dec 8, 2013)

Your BP image is irrelevant to the concepts I'm talking about. They are more PRONOUNCED - easily seen - in people with high intelligence, despite being in others.

This would be like someone with 150/100 who gets red in the face when they get high blood pressure telling someone with 150/100 who doesn't that they obviously don't have it as bad.

I'm sorry to say, but your point on atheism didn't help. They make decisions based on probability and they may not be seen as morally correct... Where is the guideline for moral behaviour that you're holding? Because you didn't specify which you thought was morally correct. Do you save 1 or 500?


MR PIZZLE - I'm stepping off of this argument because the thread is quickly unhinging. Any questions and I'll be happy to answer them via PM, but I won't monopolize your thread anymore.

Lew - sorry.


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## Lewdog (Dec 8, 2013)

Yep I have to say the same, I'm not in the mood to argue and get banned for it.  :grin:

Mr. Pizzle if you want to get anymore info from me shoot me a private message.


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## popsprocket (Dec 8, 2013)

Remember that it is your story and you can do anything that you like.

I think it's probably safe to say that in a highly intelligent society things like morality aren't viewed the same way as they are now. But the above point that if everyone is intelligent then everyone is average seems pretty fair.

It seems far-fetched to assume that it would be a society of amoral serial killers, let alone a society without ethics or morality.


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## Outiboros (Dec 9, 2013)

MrPizzle said:


> The cost of intelligence is your morality.


That makes no sense.


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## Kevin (Dec 9, 2013)

The point of the story of the tree of knowledge and eating the apple? or Animal Farm? But the dumb animals were unaware of the immorality (or were they?).


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## Nickleby (Dec 9, 2013)

It seems to me that a culture of highly intelligent people would work towards solving these problems rather than ignore them. They would train their children to behave ethically, find better treatments (or even a cure) for depression, and diminish the stigma of mental illness.


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## MrPizzle (Dec 10, 2013)

Outiboros said:


> That makes no sense.



Before you cast me off as an idiot, this is where I got it from: http://churchandstate.org.uk/2013/08/is-human-super-intelligence-a-bad-idea/

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=251031

This is what I'm trying to ask.


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## Terry D (Dec 10, 2013)

I say, don't worry about arguing the validity of the premise before you start writing. Write the story and explore the idea. You obviously have interest in the topic, so create a world where artificially enhanced intellegence leads to whatever you choose.


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## Elvenswordsman (Dec 10, 2013)

Getting back to this - Mr Pizzle, if you're feeling discouraged, remember - you can create a scenario for everything.

We talk about how intelligent people would create better programs to raise children, but what if the world has moved into Megalopolis', and the schools represent a huge portion of the population (maybe 100,000 students?). It's more of a Plato-inspired, government raising program. However, one of the schools has a megalomaniac at the helm, and wants to breed a generation of killers to whatever end.

You can create scenarios for everything.


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## Guy Faukes (Dec 13, 2013)

MrPizzle said:


> I can't remember where I read it but some facts got my attention. High intelligence is obviously good, but apparently there are downsides to it. The cost of intelligence is your morality.
> 
> Can anyone confirm this for me? I'm trying to find articles on this, I'm just wondering that if a sci-fi universe that has humans using genetic engineering that boosts the average intelligence to near genius levels and have been doing this for almost two centuries, could this see an increase in psychopathy and other various mental issues like narcissism and perhaps megalomania?
> 
> Could the majority of humans having high intelligence actually be a bad thing? Wouldn't there be an increase in serial killers? Could humans end up becoming a race of psychopaths? What are the links between intelligence and mental health?



One of my majors is in psych, and I hate to discourage you, but no such connection has been even suggested much less tested. 

Intelligence is hard to quantify because it's a multifaceted construct. Things like IQ tests tend to be imperfect methods of measuring intelligence since it arguably only accounts for a limited measurement of intelligence and can even be culturally biased depending on the version. Trying to establish a link with that to another construct like one's morality would be difficult to control for. On the opposite side of things, higher educated people, overall, tend to be more empathetic like give to charities, be healthier, live more meaningful lives, etc, etc.

But the overall population appears to be getting smarter. They are thinking of shifting the IQ scale over a bit, or developing a newer way of rescoring it because a score of 100 is no longer the median. And indeed, we seem to be getting more narcissistic with social media (but is it because we were already narcissistic and just now have an ability to express it?). Even the genetics for intelligence are shifty and hard to really study. 

Needless to say, science is a long way from confirming this relationship between sociopathic tendencies and intelligence, or even the genetics of intelligence.


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## Guy Faukes (Dec 14, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> No, I'm just talking about Nurture verses Nature.
> Can't you see how hard it is to get along with me?  I must be a genius.  :coffeescreen:



Lol. Yeah, I don't wanna resurrect a dead debate, but just to clarify, the Nature vs Nurture was an old debate in science, particularly between the "I can program any organism to do anything by training it!" behaviorists and "nah man, somethings are just natural" cognitive psychologists. Nowadays, we don't see it so much as the two competing or one overcoming the other, but view how genetics (e.g. the ingredients to a dish) is express by the environmental cues around (e.g. the recipe).


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## Lewdog (Dec 14, 2013)

Guy Faukes said:


> One of my majors is in psych, and I hate to discourage you, but no such connection has been even suggested much less tested.
> 
> Intelligence is hard to quantify because it's a multifaceted construct. Things like IQ tests tend to be imperfect methods of measuring intelligence since it arguably only accounts for a limited measurement of intelligence and can even be culturally biased depending on the version. Trying to establish a link with that to another construct like one's morality would be difficult to control for. On the opposite side of things, higher educated people, overall, tend to be more empathetic like give to charities, be healthier, live more meaningful lives, etc, etc.
> 
> ...



That's the problem with psychology and sociology, it's almost impossible to run tests and come up with scientific proof of anything when you are testing people who's personalities vary so much.  About the only thing I can say that I have seen from true sociopaths is they usually have a large ego.  That ego drives them to do some of the bad things they do, because the power becomes an ego trip, yet at the same time it can often be their downfall.  Look at Dennis Rader, the BTK killer.  His ego led him to believe that he was so much smarter than the police, that he could continue to taunt them.  All he ended up doing is giving the police the material to catch him with.


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## Guy Faukes (Dec 14, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> That's the problem with psychology and sociology, it's almost impossible to run tests and come up with scientific proof of anything when you are testing people who's personalities vary so much.



It's not so much personality differences that make intelligence hard to study, it's how research done on it is conducted. We basically ask "what part of intelligence are you trying to measure, and what other thing do you believe plays a role with it? How can you verify that what your measuring is accurate?" 

We can study aspects of intelligence with at least some degree of accuracy, and there are proponents for some general intelligence tests, but there isn't anything currently prompting research to examine that with the relationship that the OP is asking. And even with the OP's question, what type of intelligence is being examined? Is it analytical ability? Is it the social intelligence? 



Lewdog said:


> About the only thing I can say that I have seen from true sociopaths is they usually have a large ego.  That ego drives them to do some of the bad things they do, because the power becomes an ego trip, yet at the same time it can often be their downfall.  Look at Dennis Rader, the BTK killer.  His ego led him to believe that he was so much smarter than the police, that he could continue to taunt them.  All he ended up doing is giving the police the material to catch him with.



I don't think it's ego so much as it is trying to alleviate boredom. They control their empathy, and don't have the same sort of need for social bonds as others do. They aren't out worried or caring about how they are going to befriend others (this is mostly personal opinion), so they try to find things that stimulate them. Unfortunately for the rest of us, these things can be harmful to others, immoral, or illegal. It depends on how smart they are and depends on how well they are able to get away with it.  And while we're at it, there is a difference between sociopathic and psychopathic tendencies. You might not exhibit psychopathic tendencies, per say, when you're a sociopath (top businessmen, cough).


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## Guy Faukes (Dec 14, 2013)

Yeah... sorry, if I come off as being ranty and "know it all" tonight... taking a well needed study break before exams...


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## Morkonan (Dec 14, 2013)

MrPizzle said:


> I can't remember where I read it but some facts got my attention. High intelligence is obviously good, but apparently there are downsides to it. The cost of intelligence is your morality.



Err... No.



> Can anyone confirm this for me? I'm trying to find articles on this, I'm just wondering that if a sci-fi universe that has humans using genetic engineering that boosts the average intelligence to near genius levels and have been doing this for almost two centuries, could this see an increase in psychopathy and other various mental issues like narcissism and perhaps megalomania?
> 
> Could the majority of humans having high intelligence actually be a bad thing? Wouldn't there be an increase in serial killers? Could humans end up becoming a race of psychopaths? What are the links between intelligence and mental health?



Possibly...

There appear to be some level of correlation with elevated IQ and certain sorts of abnormal behaviors associated with those conditions and others. However, a great many of those are anecdotal. We hear/read about noted serial killers having extraordinarily high IQs, but who obviously engage in deviant behaviors. We don't really hear/read much about the masses of people who engage in orsuffer from these behaviors. There are, however, high IQs associated with other sorts of deviant behaviors, some of the sexual. But, I do not believe any of these things have positive correlations - Just because you have a high IQ doesn't mean that you have an increased propensity for deviant behavior or mental disorders.

However... You may find that an entire society with extremely high intelligence might develop value systems that are radically different than what we might believe qualifies as "morally just." That's certainly possible, but it doesn't have to come from "intelligence." It could, for instance, come from a culturally induced self-obsession with one's own intellectual capacity or a society's belief in its own moral superiority due to its collective "intelligence." Nobody is too smart to become fouled in a culturally induced belief of their own moral superiority. History is full of 'em.


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## Outiboros (Dec 14, 2013)

MrPizzle said:


> Before you cast me off as an idiot, this is where I got it from: http://churchandstate.org.uk/2013/08/is-human-super-intelligence-a-bad-idea/
> 
> http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=251031
> 
> This is what I'm trying to ask.


Ah, so we're talking about hyperintelligence. 

I don't think I agree with what is said there. There seems to be a supposition that when 'smart'-type intelligence is enhanced and 'emotion'-type intelligence isn't, the emotion will become less influential. But would it? Smarts versus emotions isn't one scale. We may see it as such, as people who currently have abnormally high intelligence are often linked to emotional disorders (autism, autistic savantism, etc). But enhancing one's intelligence wouldn't make him autistic, and many of the other mental problems caused by intellectual giftedness, the isolation, depression, etcetera, are caused by being 'different from everyone else', being isolated. When you can enhance intelligence and do so in relatively large portions of the populace that shouldn't be a problem; neither would it be a problem if it's done after childhood.


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