# Master short story writing before attempting novels?



## TomJMiller (Apr 29, 2015)

Is it necessary to master the short story before attempting to write a novel? From my thinking it would be for the reason that if there are any structural flaws, it's much easier to fix in a condensed story. But I'm a novice and I'd like to hear what you more experienced writers think. Thanks in advance!


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## InstituteMan (Apr 29, 2015)

It's not necessary, but many writers (myself included) find learning in a shorter form more conducive to developing our skills. 

Learning to revise and refine the elements of storytelling in pieces having maybe a few thousand words happens faster than if you're finished work has many tens of thousands of words. Writing 2k words takes less time than writing 200k, and something's can only be learned from completing a project. 

Also, from a practical point of view, it's much easier to get meaningful feedback on a short work than on a long work--and few writers can accurately evaluate their own work.

There are many fine writers (on WritingForums and elsewhere) who just started with novels, but there's nothing wrong with started with short stories, and many of us find starting short helps us learn the craft.


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## TJ1985 (Apr 29, 2015)

InstituteMan said:


> Learning to revise and refine the elements of storytelling in pieces having maybe a few thousand words happens faster than if you're finished work has many tens of thousands of words. Writing 2k words takes less time than writing 200k, and something's can only be learned from completing a project.



Bingo. Plus, there's ordinary time. I'd hate to see somebody devote 2000 hours into a novel only to discover that they really don't know how to wind the story down to a conclusion.


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## Riptide (Apr 29, 2015)

From an _experienced _writer like myself... I jumped right into novel writing, hashing out a novella in record time, then revamped my style, cleaned my prose with practice, now first try is set as a milestone, an Now I Know I Can Do It, milestone... Do both, they offer valuable teachings either way. 

You can learn beginning middle and end in a short, but with novels, novellas, bigger works, you learn development, interactions, growth, change, which at the same time works in a smaller, yet similar, manner for short stories.


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## TKent (Apr 29, 2015)

Actually, it was InstituteMan who shared this bit of wisdom with me after having it shared with him by someone here I believe. Anyway, best thing I ever did to progress my writing. Experiencing the end-to-end process has been so helpful. I now know that with work (lots of it) I can take a nasty rough draft and get it into decent shape. Plus I can experiment with different POVs, styles, approaches, or specific aspects of the craft in a story start-to-finish. I've learned a lot and recently have gotten back to my novel which I'd set aside for months and feel like I have valuable learning to apply to it anew


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## Skodt (Apr 29, 2015)

I think they are two different talents. I am a long winded writer, which means my short stories always have a hard time wrapping up. They start as shorts and end as Novella's or Novels. That isn't saying I don't have finished short stories, it just doesn't seem to end at the mark of a short story very often. I think you write what the idea is, let the idea dictate the length, don't try to stretch out a short story, and don't try to box in a novel. If you just listen to the story, then it will find its own length, no reason to stress over it while you write it, just write the story and see what it becomes.


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## Lydia14 (Apr 29, 2015)

Some people are just better at writing long fiction -- it's like pulling teeth for me to write a short story, and everything I've written has been novel-length or close to it, when I can actually finish it. I did manage to finish a novel, years ago. (It sucked in every level imaginable, but like Riptide said, that was my "Now I Can Do It" milestone.) But, focusing on long fiction has made me a better writer, I think -- I can put together plots and subplots pretty well without plot holes these days. 

EDIT: Sounds like we have the same style, Skodt. *fist bump*


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## Carousel (Apr 30, 2015)

If you can’t hold a readers attention for a few pages, how are you going to do that for 300 hundred?
Dip your toes in the water before getting out of your depth.


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## Gargh (Apr 30, 2015)

They are different beasts that require different levels of attention and scrutiny, but they can inform each other. Completing short stories, getting past the 'difficult' bits, and revising them, _can _certainly help you short-cut through a lot of the issues new writers face. However, I believe it depends on you personally as well: Do you respond well to critique? Are you self-analytical? Do you challenge yourself? Can you be objective? Do you study well? Some people knock out short stories -- beginning, middle, end, done -- and sit back and go, 'well that was easy' whilst totally ignoring the reader, for example, and then just crack on with a novel that no one but them wants to read at the other end. No one thing will invariably produce results; you need to understand yourself a bit as well, how you tick, and what type of learning works for you.


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## Deafmute (Apr 30, 2015)

There is no prerequisite that you must master writing short stories in order to be good at writing novels. However, short story writing is good practice and its extremely nice to see yourself finish a piece early in your writing journey something that will take much more time if you commit your first work to be a novel.

Recently I have taken to doing something I consider to be a lot of fun and extremely helpful. I have taken my novel and starting writing short stories that take place within the setting of and with the same characters as my actual novel. These short stories constitute past events and historical occurrences that I may reference when I work on my main novel. It has helped me tremendously to see finished stories while simultaneously getting to real content that will help me understand the characters and events of my story. I recommend it as a great cure for writers block.


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## Gargh (Apr 30, 2015)

^ Yes, I do that too! It's more fun than character questionnaires!


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## Bevo (Apr 30, 2015)

Deaf that is a great idea that I partially do, my version is a fact based summary of my character. Writing a short story about them would help emensly to avoid confusion and character mix up. At first I wanted to do short stories of each person in my novel as a book of shorts, a novel with them would follow.

Back to the original question.
I have not been writting long but finishing 4 short stories has given me more confidence with the process. The editing and tightening up of the shorter stories are also easier and faster now that I have the hang of it.

There is a lot to be gained by simply completing something, baby steps if you will.


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## shadowwalker (Apr 30, 2015)

As others noted, it's not a prerequisite - and in some cases, can be detrimental (JMO). They are both writing, but it's like saying a poodle and a Chihuahua are both dogs - beyond the basics, they require very different care. Just because you (generic) can write short stories does not mean you can write a novel - and vice-versa.


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## popsprocket (Apr 30, 2015)

I've always found short stories to be really poor practice for writing novels.

They're different beasts that require different things of a writer. Some of the skills are transferrable, but, if you're looking to write novels rather than short stories, writing a short won't teach you anything about writing a novel that actually writing a novel would do.

The only real advantage shorts have is that they are good practice for starting and finishing projects. It's a much less daunting proposition to finish a 10 000 word story than a 100 000 word novel. And _that'__s_ something worth learning - how to push yourself to finish a project.


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## Sam (Apr 30, 2015)

Simple answer: No. 

Complicated answer: You should try your hand at every kind of writing, if only for the experience, and that includes short stories. However, they are two completely different beasts. Writing short stories will not prepare you for novels, and writing novels will not prepare you for short stories. They should be done independently of one another, so that they augment your writing full stop. 

There is no such thing as mastering any written form. The most experienced writers of any generation learn something new every time they pick up a pen or take a seat behind a keyboard. 

But, no, 'mastering' the short story will not help with writing a novel, anymore than mastering sprinting will help win you a marathon.


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## Terry D (Apr 30, 2015)

Why not do both? Writing a novel is a long process. There is plenty of time to work on short fiction also. Think of it as cross-training. As has been mentioned several times, the techniques and discipline required are different for each type of writing. Novels are not more difficult to write than short stories--some writers will tell you they are far easier--they are simply longer. You will learn much by working in both formats, so get started, and have fun.


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## Phil Istine (Apr 30, 2015)

I'm doing both - a pretty big ask for a novice.
In a way it's been forced upon me.  I started an autobiography (+embellishments) a while ago.  It can be very heavy going because there were many dark phases in my life.  When it becomes too difficult I take a break and do some shorter, lighter and fun pieces.
I don't have the experience to know yet what's best for me but this way seems to be working so far.


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## ppsage (Apr 30, 2015)

Not so long ago, in the golden age of English letters, magazine publishing was actually a more important revenue stream than book publishing, and the professional fiction writer would be expected to be proficient at both stories and novels. From the middle of the nineteenth century to the middle of the twentieth, many many instances can be found where stories are incorporated into novels and where stories are extracted from novels. Successful authors: household names. Back then, even a little bit in the sort of genre work which has evolved into such an important part of the market. So, while they're certainly different in important ways, they're not necessarily completely separate, in their compositional requirements, at least in that older, somewhat outmoded, literary style. I wouldn't say mastering is necessary, whatever that means, but I bet it doesn't hurt either.


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## SethVonDoom (Apr 30, 2015)

I do short stories for my characters in Dungeons and Dragons and in our Star Wars roleplay.  It helps me flesh out my character a bit more and gives my DM something to help work around without having to ask me about certain things.  I prefer short story writing as to extended writing.


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## David Gordon Burke (May 1, 2015)

I just finished a short story collection.  The advantage to the short story, I found was in the editing phase.  While a short story may have less in the way of secondary sub-plots, it is or can be just as daunting a task as writing a novel, at least short stories in the 10 to 20 thousand word range.  Getting everything into your story in an economic way can be just as challenging as long form writing.
I'm a better writer since I did the short stories.  
I'd say there is no HAVE TO where novela vs. short stories is concerned but .... it can't hurt to semi-master the short story if you want to write a novel.  And vice versa.  Then there's flash fiction.  Extreme short stories of a page or two .... (the exact lenght I don't know)
I may give the flash fiction thing a try.  Refining to that level of economy certainly would benefit future writing of all kinds. 
David Gordon Burke


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## pgbthewriter (May 1, 2015)

This is an interesting question.

Personally I tried to write a novel straight up, I got 25,000 words in and found I was out of my depth. I deleted it and now just focus on short stories and poetry, much easier and safer


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## Carousel (May 1, 2015)

A Short story is a novel in miniature, the only differences are in the overall structure length and the use of sub plots in novels. The skills used in the day to day writing of both are much the same, i.e. composing an interesting plot, characterisation, dialogue etc and the need to keep a balance between the descriptive writing and the run of the story line.

To use a sports term; if you’re knackered after running 800 metres, why would hell would you want to try running marathon?
If there is a better way of honing one’s writing skills I have yet to find any.


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## Sam (May 1, 2015)

Carousel said:


> A Short story is a novel in miniature.



A novella is a novel in miniature.


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## Bevo (May 1, 2015)

I will add something I discovered last night editing my short stories.

Tightening up, shorts have taught me to be less rambling and direct, keep it moving and have all the lines matter. Looking at my novel, the first part was less direct and rambled whil the latest is tight and clear with good flow.

The difference is 6 short stories between the first and second part of the novel.
in my case it's not a matter of mastering but learning as I write, simply put, writing makes you a better writer.


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## Carousel (May 1, 2015)

Sam said:


> A novella is a novel in miniature.




So adding al makes a difference does it?


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## Sam (May 1, 2015)

Naturally.


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## Carousel (May 1, 2015)

When you can put forward constructive reply or a counter argument, I will reply with the courtesies they merit. Until then------------


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## Sam (May 1, 2015)

If you don't know the difference between a novella and a novel, that's not my problem.


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## Carousel (May 1, 2015)

I take the answer is a no then. I don't reply to one line comments. even the good ones.


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## Tettsuo (May 1, 2015)

Sam said:


> ...'mastering' the short story will not help with writing a novel, anymore than mastering sprinting will help win you a marathon.


Brilliant!

Agree 100%.  It's different disciples that often require different skills.


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## Terry D (May 1, 2015)

Carousel said:


> A Short story is a novel in miniature, the only differences are in the overall structure length and the use of sub plots in novels. The skills used in the day to day writing of both are much the same, i.e. composing an interesting plot, characterisation, dialogue etc and the need to keep a balance between the descriptive writing and the run of the story line.
> 
> To use a sports term; if you’re knackered after running 800 metres, why would hell would you want to try running marathon?
> If there is a better way of honing one’s writing skills I have yet to find any.



A short story and a novel are constructed completely differently. To use your own analogy, the training, the running, even the breathing, are different between a sprint and a marathon. Same goes for short and long form fiction. Of course there are writing skills shared by both formats, but there are more differences than similarities. That's why many writers find themselves drawn to one rather than the other.


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## Kyle R (May 1, 2015)

If tackling a full-length novel feels too daunting, there's nothing wrong with cutting your teeth in the short story arena. As long as you're writing fiction, you're learning and improving. Just don't be afraid to stretch your legs a little and see how far you can go.

Some writers find it comfortable to build their way up (or down), using different story lengths as stepping stones. Once they feel they've gotten a handle on one story length, they give the next closest length a try.
*Short Story*: less than 7,500 words
*Novelette*: 7,500 to 17,500 words
*Novella*: 17,500 to 40,000 words
*Novel*: 40,000 words or more​
Just like the running analogy, many athletes like to work up to longer distances incrementally (or work down, if they're trying to get better at shorter distances).

Whatever method you choose to use, don't forget to read, as well! :encouragement:


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## Bevo (May 1, 2015)

This is fun :joyous:

As a marathon runner our coach makes us practice sprints weekly to help us improve our overall speed.
Sorry, couldn't resist.


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## ppsage (May 1, 2015)

> As a marathon runner our coach makes us practice sprints weekly to help us improve our overall speed.


I sort of thought the running analogy, if examined in real world praxis, actually makes a better case for the value of cross training, in both athletics and writing.


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## LOLeah (May 1, 2015)

I think for a complete amateur (me) short stories are good practice. Yes, short stories are completely different than novels but there are a lot of skills that can be honed with short stories that will serve you well when writing an entire book. Convention, cliches, pace, dialogue, overall voice, etc. My problem with short stories (aside from word limit which just kills me) is that I'm not an "idea" person. I have such admiration for writers who crank out truly original short stories. My idea for my book that is my one and only work in progress hit me like a train and took me over but that has happened ONCE in my life and is why I'm doing what I'm doing now.


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## David Gordon Burke (May 2, 2015)

Something that I read recently.  It seems that Poe made up his mind that the perfect literary vehicle was the short story.  According to his beliefs, and apparent lack of faith in human beings, we lack the ability to truly understand the novel form.  If it cannot be read in one sitting, he believed, something would be lost.  
Food for thought.

On another note.... I have a real problem with people who use absolutes incorrectly and irresponsibly.  Not that I am any master writer but I still figure I have moved a step ahead.  I would never say that writing a short story is COMPLETELY different than writing a novel.  

Murdering your Mexican mother-in-law with a not a not-ripe mango .... now that'completely different from writing a novel.  

David Gordon Burke


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## Crowley K. Jarvis (May 2, 2015)

True, there are many differences, and the styles can be quite different. But the skill to write a story is what you need. If you can't write a short story, you can't write a longer story. Because it's a story, which needs story telling skills. The execution is different. More fluff in longer novels. But you still need the same basic components, regardless of scale. It's good practice simply because it takes less time. A bigger novel just needs much more planning.


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## Carousel (May 2, 2015)

Terry D said:


> A short story and a novel are constructed completely differently. To use your own analogy, the training, the running, even the breathing, are different between a sprint and a marathon. Same goes for short and long form fiction. Of course there are writing skills shared by both formats, but there are more differences than similarities. That's why many writers find themselves drawn to one rather than the other.




I covered the structure differences in my post--_the only differences are in the overall structure length and the use of sub plots in novels._
You say--  _but there are more differences than similarities_

My question is-- precisely what differences?
No one yet has addressed the point I made in my first post-- _If you can’t hold the readers attention for a few pages, how are you going to do that for 300 hundred?_

As for the sporting analogy; I was a hand’s on sports coach for thirteen years, now in administration. But I could have used any number of different analogies to make the same point, which is learn to walk before you run. If you are unhappy with my sports analogy than lets try another
.
 A guy, who has read all the books, acquired the info on how to be an electrician but has hardly ever used any of the practical skills involved. Would you hire him to re-wire your house? 

I can’t think why anyone would want to submit themselves in three to six months of their time to writing a novel without the dream of getting it published. How many unfinished manuscripts lay around gathering dust? 

Sure, take all the advice on offer. There’s certainly no shortage of those who are keen to tell you how to write, but when you sit at the keyboard typing the first words of your novel, you’re on your own and you’re just one of thousands that are competing in a highly commercialised world.

If I were to embark on the task of writing a novel, I would like at least some evidence that I had the practical skills necessary to give me a fighting chance. Writing a shorten version of a novel (you can quibble about their names and length) are to me the only way on how to acquire those skills.


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## Sam (May 2, 2015)

Carousel said:


> If I were to embark on the task of writing a novel, I would like at least some evidence that I had the practical skills necessary to give me a fighting chance. Writing a shorten version of a novel (you can quibble about their names and length) are to me the only way on how to acquire those skills.



I started with novels. Read them, wrote them, lived and breathed them. Sure, some of them are gathering dust in a corner. So what? Is that such a horrible thing? I'm sure there's plenty of short stories gathering dust as well. Just because something never sees light of day does not make it a waste. It's a learning experience. When I first tried to build a chest of drawers, it was rubbish. I didn't lament the fact that it would never be put to practical use. I used the experience to build the next one better. 

Point being that nothing -- not short stories, not novelettes, not novellas -- can adequately prepare you for writing a novel. They will teach you how to write, and how to write well, but they are not preparation for a novel. The longest novel I've ever written was 340,000 words. That's a hell of a lot of short stories. 

No one is saying that short stories are not beneficial. Of course they are. I said, myself, that one should try all forms of writing. But to say you need to master short stories before tackling novels is untrue. You can start a novel tomorrow if you want to. It may not be the best novel, but neither will it be if you spend two years writing short stories. 

The only way you learn how to write novels is by writing novels.


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## Kevin (May 2, 2015)

> Sure, some of them are gathering dust in a corner. So what? Is that such a horrible thing? I'm sure there's plenty of short stories gathering dust as well


all those poor trees. 





> I first tried to build a chest of drawers, it was rubbish.


and yet some more wasted trees...


> The only way you learn how to write novels is by writing novels.


 I suppose at some point, to run a marathon, you have to run a marathon.

and D.G.B., I think it's 'unripe'. _He crushed her melon with an unripe mango._


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## Kyle R (May 2, 2015)

Carousel said:


> I covered the structure differences in my post--_the only differences are in the overall structure length and the use of sub plots in novels._
> You say--  _but there are more differences than similarities_
> 
> My question is-- precisely what differences?


I find there are many elements of short story writing that can be applied to novels, such as description, dialogue, characterization, et cetera.

There are, though, things that change (for me) depending on the story length. Pacing, structure, word economy, exploration of theme, et cetera. These things (at least when I write) need to be adjusted depending on the amount of room I have to work with.

I write differently when writing flash fiction than I do with short stories, just as I write differently with novel-length fiction compared to short fiction. Sure, there are a lot of transferrable skills, but there are also things unique to story length that, to me, are most noticeable when changing between the different forms. :encouragement:


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## Carousel (May 3, 2015)

Sure, you can gain the same experience from writing novels, if you have enough free time to write them. The sad fact for most of us is that we don’t have the time to write a collection of full length novels with the sole aim of learning the skills to do so.

_They will teach you how to write, and how to write well, but they are not preparation for a novel._

I think most of us would think that to be ability to write well is the first priority one needs to write a successful novel. 

_No one is saying that short stories are not beneficial. Of course they are. I said, myself, that one should try all forms of writing. But to say you need to master short stories before tackling novels is untrue. You can start a novel tomorrow if you want to. It may not be the best novel, but neither will it be if you spend two years writing short stories._

 Well I think that Conan Doyle had some success with the Sherlock Holmes short stories. Roald Dahl, Steven King and many others too, the list goes on.


Of course you can an attempt to write novel without the time spent in acquiring even the basic skills. As a past administrator on a few forums, I have read many such.’
 ‘This is the first chapter in my first novel, what do you think?  
Do you reply with the brutal truth or at least try to find something in the text to encourage the writer? For me it was always the latter but that comes a bit hard when faced with struggling through the opening chapters of the tenth vampire ‘novel’ you've read in two weeks.

The advantage in using short stories to hone your skills is that they re far easier to self edit than a full length novel. Also you can tailor them to focus on developing a single skill i.e. dialogue, descriptive prose etc. and to repeat, the time you have at your disposal.

PS. Please excuse any missing letters in this post. I’m waiting for a new keyboard; the one I’m using is crap. I have to hit some keys with a bloody hammer, it’s a real pain.


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## ppsage (May 3, 2015)

> I have to hit some keys with a bloody hammer, it’s a real pain.


Pry the key off and take the crumbs out. Many youtube videos instruct this.


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## Carousel (May 3, 2015)

Cheers, but crumbs aren't the trouble, the plastic key connection underneath is worn.


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## shadowwalker (May 4, 2015)

I've edited this several times, and it's late, so forgive me if I sound blunt, but anyone who thinks that a novel just has more "fluff" than a short story illustrates exactly why writing short stories is not a prerequisite for writing novels. There is no fluff in a well-written novel. And yes, it is extremely difficult to write a novel that holds people's interest for the whole length - which is why some writers can't write them.

I've written dang near every length story there is, from flash to epic. Other than the most basic writing skills, they are not "the same, just a different length". And just to be clear - _none _of them is "easy" to write - or edit -if it's to be done _well_.


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## Folcro (May 4, 2015)

No. No, no and uh... no. A short story is not a short novel. A short story has a way of being told unique to other forms including the novel; it is a different form of storytelling. It is not a novel cut short and a novel is not a short story with more stuff. 

There are certain things that writing a short story can give you practice in, like general prose and brief descriptions. But the only prerequisite to writing a novel is starting one.

And anyone who thinks short stories and essays are training wheels for bigger, better things hasn't read George Orwell.


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## Carousel (May 4, 2015)

Has anyone said that short stories are used exclusively as practice for writing novels? No one has, only that they can be very useful in developing the skills necessary to write a novel. The key word is *can*. 
Disagree by all means but please don’t base an argument on a wide assumption that no one has made.
Oh and I have read Orwell, including his short stories.
 -------------------------------------------------------

Did anyone dismiss novels as fluff; I know I never did.

_And yes, it is extremely difficult to write a novel that holds people's interest for the whole length - which is why some writers can't write them.
_
 I've read and many novels and while most were enjoyable some where left unfinished. Whether written in twenty pages of five hundred, neither come with a guarantee to hold a readers interest.

_I've written dang near every length story there is, from flash to epic. Other than the most basic writing skills, they are not "the same, just a different length". And just to be clear - none of them is "easy" to write - or edit -if it's to be done well._

Well I think most of us will find it’s a tad more manageable to edit twenty pages than five hundred, but let that pass.

Twice now I have asked for  specific differences between short stories and the novel, that is apart from their length and structure, but to date no one has mentioned them.

Let me help.
A short story writer can kill off their hero/ heroine on page fifteen, to do the same in a novel would be a little more difficult.

 A novel can offer a host of characters far more than a short story.  Anna Karenina, War and Peace for example. God, I needed a notepad handy to keep track all of those who appeared, disappeared only to return again. 

In a short story there are only usually only one or two locations where the story takes place. In a novel you can cover half the world.

But all of these are matters of scale and structure. A short story has a handbag to carry the content while a novel has a suitcase; or in our Leo’s epics, two or three.

Do professional writers use short stories to practice their skills? I don’t know, but it’s true that some have used characters from them in their later novels.  
For hundreds of years’ short stories and collections of them have been written and published. Certainly more authors have written in the genre than haven’t.

Quote.
The difference between a novel and the short story is the difference between indulgence and compression, between the panoramic vision and the sideways glance. “Brevis esse, obscure fio,” Horace once remarked (“I try to be brief but become obscure”). However, brevity has its own satisfactions, and one of the distinctions of the great masters of the genre – from Kafka to Coppard, or Maclaren-Ross to Cheever – is their ability to fashion a world in a scattering of pages. Landscape painting is all very well, but you can get just as much satisfaction from a miniaturist.


_Master short story writing before attempting novels._ Is the name of this post, though I would probably exchange the word for Master to Try.
 For new and budding writers, writing short stories together with the luxury of posting them here and receiving reviews is very beneficial. I don’t know if entire novels are accepted or more to the point would anyone read them?


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## TKent (May 4, 2015)

Hey there Carousel,

I think I skimmed the word 'master' as well in responding. My comments were simply my own experience with attempting short fiction as a way to improve my writing skills because I felt like I needed experience with the the end-to-end process. The process is so different for everyone, so I for one appreciate you sharing your own experience. I try to focus on what someone means in these threads and not get too caught up in whether or not their choice of word was exactly right and/or whether I agree 100% with everything they say 



> _Master short story writing before attempting novels._ Is the name of this post, though I would probably exchange the word for Master to Try.
> For new and budding writers, writing short stories together with the  luxury of posting them here and receiving reviews is very beneficial. I  don’t know if entire novels are accepted or more to the point would  anyone read them?


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## TKent (May 4, 2015)

Regardless of the 'differences' in the various formats, for me, I do benefit from writing short fiction because I get practice writing. And even though a novel has a much more complex structure, a good short story, for me, has a distinct beginning, middle and end. A distinct story arc. I can also practice refining my prose, dialog, description and character development skills. Developing a unique voice. If nothing else, coming up with cool character names. And a bunch of other things. I've heard so many writers here say that the path is different for different writers. I think we all agree on that. My experience with short fiction helping me do bigger and better things is not saying that it is the path that everyone here would take. But it is my experience.


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## Terry D (May 4, 2015)

Carousel said:


> I covered the structure differences in my post--_the only differences are in the overall structure length and the use of sub plots in novels._
> You say--  _but there are more differences than similarities_
> 
> My question is-- precisely what differences?


Pacing is different
Transitions are different
Character introductions and development are different
Setting is handled differently
Themes are typically broader and handled with more depth
The passage of time is usually handled differently
Dialogue is handled differently

And that's just a few.



> As for the sporting analogy; I was a hand’s on sports coach for thirteen years, now in administration. But I could have used any number of different analogies to make the same point, which is learn to walk before you run. If you are unhappy with my sports analogy than lets try another



I was quite happy with it. It was good analogy. Sprinting and running a marathon are different, as are short fiction and long. I'm curious as to why you seem to think short story writing is 'walking' while writing a novel is 'running'. Writing good short fiction is not easier than writing a good novel; different, but not easier.
.
If a writer's goal is to learn how to write better, to develop the skills needed to write well, then he or she can do that by pounding out a novel as well as by writing the same number of words of short fiction. Furthermore, if that writer's goal is to be a novelist, then writing a novel is the _best_ way to build those skills.


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## Carousel (May 6, 2015)

Pacing is different---- Yes of course it would have to be but that’s been acknowledged previously.  


Transitions are different----if you mean by Transitions as in Transitions words then no. If you mean Transition from scene to scene, from place to place it’s a question of pace and frequency.


Character introductions and development are different----Introductions? Well no. characters don’t just appear in short stories anymore than they do in novels. As for development, Dickens and Dylan Thomas could both nail their characters in a few paragraphs of their Short Stories more completely than most novels can.    



Setting is handled differently---- I think you may mean there is more of it to do. A 
landscape is a landscape, a city is a city, how differently and well they are described depends on the author. Settings are relevant to both genres, a Short Story cannot be told in a complete vacuum.



Themes are typically broader and handled with more depth---- Once again that’s obvious and has been acknowledged previously.  


The passage of time is usually handled differently---- As the above.


Dialogue is handled differently----How differently? Relating a conversation is the same whether it occurs in a Short Story or a novel. Dialogue is Dialogue.


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## Terry D (May 6, 2015)

You asked. I answered. If you really don't understand the differences there's not much more to say.


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## Kyle R (May 6, 2015)

Carousel said:
			
		

> Dialogue is handled differently----How differently?



In a longer story, my dialogue might read something like:

George slammed the oven door and said, "What the hell do you want from me? Huh? You think I _like _the way we're living? You think I want this for us?"

It was what she'd expected—what she'd been after, really. Finally, George was _acknowledging_ her. "That's just it!" she cut in. "I don't _know_ what you want! You never talk to me anymore!"

George gripped his stupid hair and groaned. "God, woman! We're talking now, aren't we?!"​
In a shorter story, I'm more apt to write something like:

They fought over what was said. They fought over what wasn't. In the kitchen, through the halls, they struck each other with words.​
My prose style changes. Much of the scene becomes summary. With a longer story, I give myself more room to explore the spoken words. With a shorter story, the _essence_ of what's being said is what I focus on instead, and the actual words often get chopped away.

That's how I handle the differences, at least. But everyone approaches these things in their own way. :encouragement:


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## Carousel (May 6, 2015)

Terry D said:


> You asked. I answered. If you really don't understand the differences there's not much more to say.



Why do you say I don’t understand when I’ve answered all the points you raised? If you don’t like the answers that’s not a reason to doubt my understanding.


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## Carousel (May 7, 2015)

Kyle R said:


> In a longer story, my dialogue might read something like:George slammed the oven door and said, "What the hell do you want from me? Huh? You think I _like _the way we're living? You think I want this for us?"
> 
> It was what she'd expected—what she'd been after, really. Finally, George was _acknowledging_ her. "That's just it!" she cut in. "I don't _know_ what you want! You never talk to me anymore!"
> 
> ...




Why would you want to describe a domestic row blow by blow? Unless you’re writing a script for a soap. Then you have a point for doing so.
Or if the domestic happens to be a salient turning point to the plot in either a short story or a novel, then maybe there would be a reason to lengthen the dialogue in both. 

Your first lines would easily fit into a short story. If their spat went on for two pages however that may be guilty of overwriting in either genre.
How much you put into any text is dependent on the part it plays in the storyline and its progression, establishing the characters and the setting, otherwise it’s pretty meaningless waffle.


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## Kyle R (May 7, 2015)

Carousel said:
			
		

> Why would you want to describe a domestic row blow by blow? Unless you’re writing a script for a soap. Then you have a point for doing so.
> Or if the domestic happens to be a salient turning point to the plot in either a short story or a novel, then maybe there would be a reason to lengthen the dialogue in both.


I agree! Purpose should always be considered. In my opinion, there should be a reason for everything that's in a story, regardless of the length. Nothing should be included if it doesn't serve a purpose.



			
				Carousel said:
			
		

> How much you put into any text is dependent on the part it plays in the storyline and its progression, establishing the characters and the setting . . .


That's true, too! Though it's also largely dependent on the writer's discretion, as well as the writer's individual style.

Nora Roberts, for example, writes much differently than Anthony Doerr. Whether it's her blow-by-blow style or his truncated style, I believe there's no single correct way to write anything. :encouragement:


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