# Three Rules for Writing a Novel



## curtis (Aug 14, 2015)

Three Rules for Writing a Novel


Rule 1
What's Happening?
Example- Vengeance 
Instance- Pale Rider


Rule 2
Where Am I?
Example- Creating the Setting
Instance- A Farewell to Arms (Italy)


Rule 3
Who Am I?
Example- Personality Type
Instance- Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas (Dr. Gonzo)

Do you use rules when writing? How do you structure your stories?


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## shadowwalker (Aug 14, 2015)

Only rule I worry about (besides SPaG) is "Keep the reader interested".


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## curtis (Aug 14, 2015)

edit


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## curtis (Aug 14, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> Only rule I worry about (besides SPaG) is "Keep the reader interested".



I agree. I think good dialogue is key in keeping the reader interested. Not only does it help with characterization, it can also move the plot forward.


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## Sam (Aug 14, 2015)

curtis said:


> I agree. I think good dialogue is key in keeping the reader interested. Not only does it help with characterization, it can also move the plot forward.



It may be one key in keeping the reader interested. 

Rule the first (and only): 

Write the story.


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## bazz cargo (Aug 14, 2015)

I try to write something I would like to read.


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## K.S. Crooks (Aug 14, 2015)

bazz cargo said:


> I try to write something I would like to read.


 Exactly how I feel, though I do get the original point. I like to know where my characters are starting, both mentally and physically; What major obstacles they are going to face; and where they will be mentally and physically at the end of the story. What happens between those point unfolds as my story progresses.


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## Bishop (Aug 15, 2015)

Grammar are rules.

Everything else is preference and perseverance. You write what you like and work to finish it. Readers read what they like and read it to the end.


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## JasonNewton (Aug 15, 2015)

Write for yourself.


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## Schrody (Aug 15, 2015)

Write, don't give up, and let your characters be what they need to be.

Don't be a sell out.

Research.


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## curtis (Aug 18, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> Only rule I worry about (besides SPaG) is "Keep the reader interested".



How do you keep the reader interested? Instead of calling them rules, why not call them descriptions of a novel or a short story? For example, you could characterize a protagonist through his or her dialogue.


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## shadowwalker (Aug 19, 2015)

curtis said:


> How do you keep the reader interested? Instead of calling them rules, why not call them descriptions of a novel or a short story? For example, you could characterize a protagonist through his or her dialogue.



You keep the reader interested by giving interesting characters, interesting situations, interesting solutions, etc etc. And yes, you can use dialogue to show the reader the type of person the protagonist is - but isn't that rather obvious? Not to mention only one of thousands of ways you can develop a character. 

In the end, do we really need descriptions of novels or short stories? For what purpose? Surely if we want to write such things, we have read such things. We know what they are, what basic elements they contain. The rest is entirely up to the writer - there's no magic set of rules or descriptions or patterns or anything else that will produce a good story other than the writer getting his hands dirty and writing and writing and writing.


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## John Oberon (Aug 19, 2015)

My only rule is to write nothing I'd be embarrassed or ashamed to read to God, my family, or friends for any reason.


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## Kyle R (Aug 19, 2015)

curtis said:


> Do you use rules when writing?


Well, kind of, but they're more guidelines rather than rules, things I believe work for me. 

I believe in Dwight Swain's MRUs (Motivation-Reaction Units), from his book _Techniques of the Selling Writer_. 

I believe in showing more and telling less. 

I believe plot keeps the story moving, but _character_ keeps the story compelling.



			
				curtis said:
			
		

> How do you structure your stories?


Three-act structure (tried and true!). Internal arcs (_What's the character's internal flaw at the beginning? How do they overcome it in the end? And how can I link this with the external conflict?_). Blake Snyder beats, tweaked slightly, plus some beats of my own. (See the _Save the Cat!_ trilogy.)

Countless hours watching James Cameron films and taking notes. :encouragement:


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## troughs (Aug 19, 2015)

Write consistently. Every element of a piece should serve a purpose. Don't fool your reader. 

That's about it.


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## David Gordon Burke (Aug 20, 2015)

Learn all the rules.  Read as much as you can.  What advice is out there for writers?  What kind of novel do you want to write?  Why are you writing?  Is what you find interesting going to interesting to other people?  What is the agreed upon structure for good fiction?  What are the typical mistakes people make?  

These and thousands of other questions / concepts are the thoughts of an author.  We roll these thoughts around in our heads and hopefully one day, come up with a system that works for us, allows us to tell our stories.  One could call these RULES.

One thought that is above and beyond it ALL.  Rules were made to be broken.  
There are an endless vast hoard of writers out there that are conforming to the STANDARD.  
No one was ever considered GENIUS by doing what everyone else was doing.  GENIUS is in innovation and in ignoring trends, standards and conventions.  

David Gordon Burke


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## bookmasta (Aug 20, 2015)

Learn all the rules so you know when to bend them, and when you can break them.


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## Terry D (Aug 20, 2015)

W. Somerset Maugham said it best: "There are three rules for writing a novel. Unfortunately no one knows what they are."


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## Sam (Aug 20, 2015)

You don't need to learn any rules. 

All you need to do is read, write, and tell a damn good story with damn good characters. Anything else is white noise.


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## Bishop (Aug 20, 2015)

Sam said:


> ...Anything else is white noise.



Or just someone trying to sell their own "how to write fiction" books.


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## David Gordon Burke (Aug 20, 2015)

Sam said:


> You don't need to learn any rules.
> 
> All you need to do is read, write, and tell a damn good story with damn good characters. Anything else is white noise.




So said the man on the bestseller's list with millions in sales.  For the rest of us, the so called rules are certainly a good starting place to find you own voice, style and methodology.  Like anything else, a reference point.  Damn hard to learn to play the guitar if you've never heard music.  Learn French if you've never heard it spoken.  Learn html if you've never seen a web page.  

David Gordon Burke


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## David Gordon Burke (Aug 20, 2015)

Bishop said:


> Or just someone trying to sell their own "how to write fiction" books.



I read those all the time as I imagine the majority of new writers do.  I've learned as much from them as I have from the actual process of writing.  Simply put, some books can boost the learning curve drastically.  Admittedly, some are crappolla.  

David Gordon Burke


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## Sam (Aug 20, 2015)

David Gordon Burke said:


> So said the man on the bestseller's list with millions in sales.  For the rest of us, the so called rules are certainly a good starting place to find you own voice, style and methodology.  Like anything else, a reference point.  Damn hard to learn to play the guitar if you've never heard music.  Learn French if you've never heard it spoken.  Learn html if you've never seen a web page.
> 
> David Gordon Burke



You know how you find your own voice, style, and methodology? 

You mimic other voices, styles, and methodologies until you create your own. It's got nothing to do with rules. 

And I don't need to be a bestselling author with millions of sales (like that is any indication of anything) to know that I don't need a bunch of arbitrary rules to know how to write a story.


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## shadowwalker (Aug 21, 2015)

David Gordon Burke said:


> Damn hard to learn to play the guitar if you've never heard music.  Learn French if you've never heard it spoken.  Learn html if you've never seen a web page.



Which is why writers of fiction should read fiction, not how-to books of arbitrary and contradicting 'rules'. (Although I suppose those could be considered fiction...)


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## David Gordon Burke (Aug 21, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> Which is why writers of fiction should read fiction, not how-to books of arbitrary and contradicting 'rules'. (Although I suppose those could be considered fiction...)



Just following very apt the music metaphor, do you or anyone else on the forum play a musical instrument?  I did it and still struggle with it after 35 years.  I couldn´t have done it without the help of INSTRUCTIONAL books.  Guides that laid out the scales and chords and what the whole thing is made up of.  There is not much difference between reading these books and coming here to exchange opinions.  One learns the bits and pieces, what it is all called and how it fits together.  While my greatest respect (I lie .... some respect) is given to the people who dedicate their time to help others here, I may just hold a little more higher ... _*The Elements of Style and others.  *_

David Gordon Burke


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## Bishop (Aug 21, 2015)

David Gordon Burke said:


> Just following very apt the music metaphor, do you or anyone else on the forum play a musical instrument?  I did it and still struggle with it after 35 years.  I couldn´t have done it without the help of INSTRUCTIONAL books.  Guides that laid out the scales and chords and what the whole thing is made up of.  There is not much difference between reading these books and coming here to exchange opinions.  One learns the bits and pieces, what it is all called and how it fits together.  While my greatest respect (I lie .... some respect) is given to the people who dedicate their time to help others here, I may just hold a little more higher ... _*The Elements of Style and others.  *_
> 
> David Gordon Burke




I've played guitar a long time as well, and I can tell you that you're partially right. The books that explain chords and notes and time signatures... these are the building blocks of music. _Grammar _is the building blocks of writing. Grammar is what should be learned from books and teachers.

I've played blues guitar, rock, and metal, and never once read a book called "how to write blues songs" or "how to create a heavy metal riff", because method is learned from the ear, and from doing like the masters have done, whereas mechanics are learned from study. You can see the opening notes to "Aces High" in a songbook, but without hearing them played, you cannot get the right timing, feeling, dynamics... you might miss that sense of building and heightened tension that those notes build into.

Similarly, no "How to write fiction" book, not even The Elements of Style can replicate the fear that King can inject into his narrative, or any other of the thousands of great writers who mastered the uncanny translation from ineffable emotions into written text.


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## Terry D (Aug 21, 2015)

David Gordon Burke said:


> Just following very apt the music metaphor, do you or anyone else on the forum play a musical instrument?  I did it and still struggle with it after 35 years.  I couldn´t have done it without the help of INSTRUCTIONAL books.  Guides that laid out the scales and chords and what the whole thing is made up of.  There is not much difference between reading these books and coming here to exchange opinions.  One learns the bits and pieces, what it is all called and how it fits together.  While my greatest respect (I lie .... some respect) is given to the people who dedicate their time to help others here, I may just hold a little more higher ... _*The Elements of Style and others.  *_
> 
> David Gordon Burke



I'm not convinced the music metaphor is as apt as you suggest. Sure learning to create coherent sentences and paragraphs is comparable to learning scales and chords, but we're talking about writing a novel here, an act of creation not unlike composing a symphony. Where's the book that tells me how to create that cohesive flow of emotion and musical language? Playing music can be learned from books, just like writing a good sentence, but creating a good piece -- be it of music, or fiction -- probably can't.

I've learned things from creative writing books which have helped me write my books and stories, but that happens on a subconscious level. I never think about the technical stuff when I write, even though I know those ideas are floating around inside my head bumping up against the stuff I 'learned' from reading, Poe, Clarke, Kenneth Robeson, Bradbury, Matheson, and so many others. Our stories are the product of imagination and craftsmanship. Imagination cannot be taught, but craftsmanship can; either from books, or at the shoulder of a good teacher.


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## Kyle R (Aug 21, 2015)

I find great value in instructional books. There are so many authors out there who know how to write fiction better than I can.

Fortunately, some of them have taken the time to share their advice and insights on the craft.

Finding success in fiction is hard enough as is. I'm thankful for any help I can get. :encouragement:


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## shadowwalker (Aug 21, 2015)

Bishop said:


> I've played guitar a long time as well, and I can tell you that you're partially right. The books that explain chords and notes and time signatures... these are the building blocks of music. _Grammar _is the building blocks of writing. Grammar is what should be learned from books and teachers.



Precisely. 

I can guarantee that if one grabs a handful of 'writing advice' books, they will contradict each other on myriad points. So which advice do you follow? The advice that coincides with what you _already know_ - how it was done in books you liked, and how you write most productively. Read, write - that's how you become a better writer.


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## Kyle R (Aug 21, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> I can guarantee that if one grabs a handful of 'writing advice' books, they will contradict each other on myriad points. So which advice do you follow? The advice that coincides with what you _already know_ - how it was done in books you liked, and how you write most productively. Read, write - that's how you become a better writer.



For many writers, what they _already know_ is that whatever they're currently doing—it isn't working. They're not finding success. Readers aren't enjoying their work. Rejections abound. Improvement seems out of reach. Discouragement runs high.

Some writers thrive from simply reading and writing. But not all. Some can do wonders with a little extra help. :encouragement:


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## shadowwalker (Aug 21, 2015)

Kyle R said:


> For many writers, what they _already know_ is that whatever they're currently doing—it isn't working. They're not finding success. Readers aren't enjoying their work. Rejections abound. Improvement seems out of reach. Discouragement runs high.
> 
> Some writers thrive from simply reading and writing. But not all. Some can do wonders with a little extra help. :encouragement:



So which advice do they follow? What they read in Book A - or Book B? What works for Writer A - or Writer B? They don't need advice on how to write - they need a critique on what they're writing.

You and I both know how many times we see new writers come along and say, "Well, I know I'm _supposed _to do "X" (or _not _do "Y"), but it just isn't working. Am I doomed?". And that's the Number One Big Problem with relying on how-to books - new writers (and some old) treat them like a bible until they come across a koran. They bounce from one list of do's and don't's to another and another until they have no idea what they're doing.

Read. Think hard about what made you like that book. How did the writer do that? What didn't you like about it? Why? One can get much more out of an analysis like that than bouncing around between a bunch of conflicting authors' opinions.


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## Sam (Aug 21, 2015)

Kyle, do you think that a book on how to write a novel is really going to be the key factor in someone becoming published?


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## David Gordon Burke (Aug 21, 2015)

IMHO I find the opinions against reading / studying ´How to ´ books a bit disenheartening.  

Many have written ¨You don´t need to ... blah, blah, blah.¨ I ask, what is your definition of YOU and what value do you put on NEED.

Is the YOU you are talking about ME?  Or the general YOU?  Or yourself?  And how would one know what another NEEDS?  
I had all the desire in the world.  I had absolutely no idea why every time I sat down to write something, it was terrible.  I could do a short story of a page or two for English class back in High School and I was at the top of my class.  My English composition teacher (in my High School English was devided between a. grammar and studying the classics and b.  writing) gave me a lot of inspiration and regularly read my work to the class as an example of what he was looking for in various assignments.

But I had no idea how to write anything else - aside from straight non-fiction business reports and web-content that is.

Then I read two books.  Stephen King´s ´On Writing´ and James Frey´s ´How to write a Damn Good Novel.´ 
Within a year after reading them I had written a memoir and a novel.  
Surely the fact that I have read thousands of novels in my life was a great help.  No denying that.  

So to continue the music metaphor, in a big way I learned about music by absorbing, almost by osmosis, the concepts involved and I learned what I needed to learn by simply hearing about the names of the elements that are involved - sharps, flats, modes, scales, triads, circle of fifths, intervals, chord progressions, chord construction, chord substitutions, key changes etc. etc.  By absorbing the terminology and concepts I was able to assimilate the info and then use it to my benefit.  

Writing (unlike music) can be learned.  If you can speak and are literate, you can learn to write.  In music, there is a limit to what a person can do if they are not born with a certain innate talent like having a good ear (Perfect Pitch .... the ability to find tones instantaneously)  The idea that ´You don´t need .... blah, blah, blah´ promotes the idea that some people are born with the ability to extract what is needed solely from their reading and then automatically start writing good or great stories without the need to learn the terminology and concepts.  And I have been accused of subtly promoting my own Genius?  Sheesh!

Hunting and pecking for just the right elements, hoping you stumble upon the right combination without any study whatsoever sounds like going hunting with Ray Charles to me.  Although my faith in mankind is slim, bordering on nil, I give all the writers here on the forum enough credit to be able to wade through the information and misinformation out there in ´How to´ books and be able to make up their own minds.  

What a coincidence though .... back when I participated in various guitar forums, there was always the ´Don´t study, don´t learn theory´ faction.  Of couse, I never heard them play or saw their albums on itunes.

David Gordon Burke


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## Kyle R (Aug 22, 2015)

All I can say is what's helped me—and instructional books on the craft certainly have.

There are so many terrific writers, agents, and editors out there, many of whom make excellent teachers. 

Some are great motivators.

Some are ruthless wordsmiths, who mince no words when pointing out all the problems with your prose. 

Some provide roadmaps to guide you around the various roadblocks you may encounter along the way. 

Some dissect their own techniques, like wizards detailing the ingredients of their potions. These can be duds in the hands of some; they can be magic in the hands of others.

It's both a minefield and a utopia, much like the world of writing itself. You'll encounter trolls after your wallet, and mentors who speak in riddles. Look hard enough, though, and you just might find that talisman you've been seeking.

I found it in Debra Dixon. In Jill Nelson. In James Scott Bell and Blake Snyder and Jeff Gerke and so many more.

Not everyone learns the same, or follows the same path. Some writers venture off on their own, like lone swordsmen cleaving through the jungle, sharpening their instruments as they go. To them: instructional books? Bah! Useless junk. Would only weigh them down.

But not all writers are swordsmen. Not all authors can do it alone. Some are laser-focused workhorses, pounding the keyboard at all hours of the night, in pursuit of that New York Times listing. Others are mothers with three kids and an indefatigable dog, who just want a little help bringing their imaginary friends to life.

Sure, the James Bond of writing can always pull it off on his own. But even Indiana Jones needs Shorty's help from time to time. :encouragement:


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## blazeofglory (Aug 22, 2015)

Write something artistically if you want to immortalize yourself in a world of writers eternally write regardless of what your immediate reader wants. The great Gatsby got unparallelled fame posthumously. But we all want success in the present and readership or writing in the interest of the reader.


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## shadowwalker (Aug 22, 2015)

Kyle, I think you're muddying the waters just a bit when you mix mentors/betas/teachers with instructional books. Just because many of us see little or no value to the books (or see the problems they can cause) does not mean we believe in the 'lone wolf' writer. And frankly, if one has been writing for some time, and has learned where they are having problems and knows what they do well, then reading a few 'how-to' books can be helpful with those trouble spots. But one can also get that same help from forums, where there is give-and-take and there isn't the 'finality' of those books. And I would definitely not recommend them to someone just starting out.


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## Kyle R (Aug 22, 2015)

shadowwalker said:
			
		

> . . . 'how-to' books can be helpful with those trouble spots. But one can also get that same help from forums . . .


Online writing communities can be tremendously helpful, but they're not the same as How-to books. 

Discourse between fellow writers is one avenue of learning. Written instruction from professional authors, agents, and editors is another.

Both have their benefits, but they aren't identical (to me). Rather, I view them as complementary. Part of a healthy diet to go along with daily reading and writing.

But that's just me. We all find our own groove that fits us best.



			
				shadowwalker said:
			
		

> And I would definitely not recommend them to someone just starting out.


To each their own! Not everyone finds value in them, I get that.

But some _do_ find value in them, and I don't believe we should go around trying to convince them otherwise. 

Let us lovers of the How-to books have our fun, too.  :encouragement:


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## shadowwalker (Aug 22, 2015)

Kyle R said:


> But some _do_ find value in them, and I don't believe we should go around trying to convince them otherwise.



I'm not trying to convince people they haven't found value if they have. But let's not keep glossing over the fact that not all how-to books offer the _same _advice in the manner of _suggestions_. Authors, in particular, have a nasty habit of deciding that what works for them has to work for everyone and if someone is doing something different, well, they're just plain doing it wrong. And that comes across in just that way in many of the books I've perused. Not to mention that planners will demand you outline and pantsers will demand you don't - so the new writer is struggling to do one or the other until they pick up yet another how-to book that says just the opposite of the first.

These aren't like basic math books. These are like higher physics in that you have to know something about writing and _how you write already_ before you can successfully pick and choose what to try next. If I had read some of these books before picking up pen, I would have quit long ago, simply because many of the books told me to do things that were absolutely wrong for me. 

I can't in good conscience recommend them to new authors because of that fatal flaw.


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## Kyle R (Aug 23, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> Authors, in particular, have a nasty habit of deciding that what works for them has to work for everyone and if someone is doing something different, well, they're just plain doing it wrong. And that comes across in just that way in many of the books I've perused. Not to mention that planners will demand you outline and pantsers will demand you don't - so the new writer is struggling to do one or the other until they pick up yet another how-to book that says just the opposite of the first.



It's true that some how-to books are dogmatic. But not all of them. Many instructional authors openly warn about the dangers of dogma and encourage writers to discover what works for them, while providing tips and exercises to help them do exactly that.

For me, as a beginning writer who struggled with feeling discouraged, how-to books gave me the motivation to keep going. They told me that, hey, I can get better at this if I stick with it and learn what I can. They even gave me some tools to help me along the way.

With each turn of the page, James Scott Bell or Jeff Gerke or Noah Lukeman (or any of the many authors who helped me) made me feel as if I wasn't just another floundering writer in the sea. I felt inspired and motivated, given the privilege of tutelage that seemed written just for me.

A good instructional author feels like a coach in your corner, an inspiring voice of experience whom you can turn to when the Negative Nancies of the writing world tell you to give up, tell you that writing can't be learned, make you feel like you aren't good enough, nor will you ever be.

I crack open an instructional book and the author reassures me by saying, "Hogwash! You _can_ make it, and you _can_ get better at the craft. And I'm here to help you do just that. Now lets roll up those sleeves and get to it."

This is why I believe in the value of such books, and why I recommend them to those who ask.

Anyway, in the end what this conversation seems to be boiling down to is: some writers find value in how-to books. Some don't. It's obvious which camp I'm in.

We could discuss the pros and cons of such books until the cows come home, but I'll follow James Scott Bell's advice here from one of his many books on the craft:

" . . . a true professional knows when to put a cork in it and get back to the business of learning to write better." — James Scott Bell, _Writing Fiction For All You're Worth

_​Time for me to put a cork in it and get back to the business of learning to write better! :encouragement:


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## denmark423 (Aug 26, 2015)

That is very true. Making a reader have more interest on your novel is the most important thing.


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## Pidgeon84 (Aug 26, 2015)

Meh, rules suck lol


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## curtis (Aug 26, 2015)

Some people have an aversion to rules. This is understandable. Is description a better word? For example, Dr. Gonzo could be described as mentally imbalanced. This tells the reader Who Am I? Then we need to describe the location of Dr. Gonzo. Las Vegas. This tells the reader Where Am I? Finally, we need to know What's Happening? Dr. Gonzo is rebelling. That's our plot motivator. I think that books about writing are well worth the time and effort. The good ones serve as motivators.


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## Sam (Aug 26, 2015)

No, some people have an aversion to over-complication. 

I don't need a book on writing to motivate me.


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## KellInkston (Aug 26, 2015)

bazz cargo said:


> I try to write something I would like to read.



This is my game. I usually just write what I would like to read, but I occasionally slight myself to keep it enjoyable to the popular masses, though of course some say that makes it less enjoyable to them- claiming that unhindered creativity is what makes the best plots. I'm not sure.


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## The Green Shield (Aug 26, 2015)

My rules three:

Uno- Write the book you wish you could've read, or could be reading right now.

Dos- You can't possibly do any worst than _Twilight_ and _50 Shades of Gray_. They've set the bar low on the ‘Worst Book Ever’ totem pole, so don't worry too much about it. Unless, of course, you're writing about vampire erotica. In which case, watch out.

Tres- Write. It's better to have a first draft that rivals _Twilight_ and _50 Shades of Gray_ than absolutely nothing at all.


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## shadowwalker (Aug 26, 2015)

KellInkston said:


> I occasionally slight myself to keep it enjoyable to the popular masses



I'm going to amend my earlier post. I do have a 'rule' - _Never _underestimate the reader. If someone won't 'get' what you've written, they aren't your audience.


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## David Gordon Burke (Aug 26, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> Authors, in particular, have a nasty habit of deciding that what works for them has to work for everyone and if someone is doing something different, well, they're just plain doing it wrong.



I have read a slew of these books.  I have never seen any of them written in ABSOLUTES (actually have seen more absolutes in this post and elswhere on the forum) ... I´d give the average writer the benefit of the doubt here.  If one is unable to apply a definition to the word RULES then maybe they shouldn´t be a writer in the first place.  

David Gordon Burke

I´m back after an hour to add something to this post.  I am reading yet another ´How to´ book.  I would recommend it to anyone, even the most staunch hater of ´How to´ books.

How Not to Write a Novel.
http://www.harpercollins.com/9780061357954/how-not-to-write-a-novel

So our debate seems to be wrapped up in the semantics of ´RULES´ - a silly mess since anyone with any sense knows there are no rules ... even if you mangle grammar or punctuation rules you can in many cases let it slide under the guise of poetic license.  

This book presents everything in reverse - like an episode of Jeopardy.
Want to really, really suck?  Do it their way and it will be total trash for sure.
The examples of really bad prose are quite humorous and if you see your writing within, you know you are your way to utter and complete failure.  

And it is a bit of an inspiration - ¨At least I didn´t make those errors.¨ 

David Gordon Burke


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## shadowwalker (Aug 27, 2015)

David Gordon Burke said:


> The examples of really bad prose are quite humorous and if you see your writing within, you know you are your way to utter and complete failure.



Of course, that depends on whether it's actually "really bad prose" or just things the author(s) of this book don't like. 

But yes, I've read how-to books by authors that I really respect - but I couldn't possibly follow everything they say, and yes, the advice given is in, shall we say "strong" language - and contradicted by other authors I really respect. The only reason I was able to get anything out of them was because I knew, through my own writing and reading, what could work for me and what absolutely would not.


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## DavidJohn (Aug 27, 2015)

I would like to read it.


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## Terry D (Aug 27, 2015)

I think one thing we might be overlooking when talking about 'how-to' books and what we perceive as rules within them is this:

No good writer is going to present their ideas in flaccid, wishy-washy prose. That's easy to remember when writing fiction --strong images and clear, decisive, active language is almost always best -- but the same goes for non-fiction also, even 'how-to' books. Of course the writer of a book about writing is going to say "eliminate all uses of the word thumblefricker, lest it make your writing cumbersome". The alternative, "in my opinion, though it may not work for you, is that the word thumblefricker, while a perfectly valid word, might tend, in some circumstances, to be somewhat ambiguous" is not likely to be published, or remembered. I've also never read a book on writing that didn't clearly state that the content was simply the author's opinion and not to be considered a panacea for all writers. When 'name' authors write 'how-to's' it's usually because they have been asked to, so they write them in terms of what works for them. Isn't that exactly what we do here? If their opinion about the process isn't to be valued, how is ours?

Other instructional books are written by editors and agents. Those usually tell us what they like to see and why -- though, once again, stated actively rather than passively, so they come across as 'rules' rather than opinions when they are not intended as such.


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## David Gordon Burke (Aug 27, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> Of course, that depends on whether it's actually "really bad prose" or just things the author(s) of this book don't like.



While I'm respectful of an objective opinion and perspective .... Take my word for it, it's really bad writing.  It's the writer's own work, purposefully written badly.  And at times hysterical (or sad if you see yourself or your work reflected)

David Gordon Burke


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## shadowwalker (Aug 27, 2015)

They may "clearly state" at the very beginning of the book, or stuck in the Forward or Author's Notes - but I have yet to see one that has any 'reminders' of this in the rest of the book. And let's face it - a great many excellent authors truly believe if you don't do it their way, _you will fail_. As I noted earlier, we all see newbie writers coming in with the idea that there are actually rules they have to follow to get published - but those rules all depend on which how-to book they happened to pick up. How many books tell people they must write multiple drafts to get it right? How many books say one should just spew it all out and then revise? How many books tell people they must outline, must know the ending, must do This or That - and lo and behold there are successful authors who do NONE of those things. But if people read those books, they won't know that. They'll think they have to do what The Book says. And when they can't, they think they should quit because they're obviously not meant to be a writer. We have all seen this, time and time again.

There is value to these books - but not for someone just starting out. It's like handing a blueprint for a Colonial to someone who hasn't yet built a birdhouse.


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## Terry D (Aug 27, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> There is value to these books - but not for someone just starting out. It's like handing a blueprint for a Colonial to someone who hasn't yet built a birdhouse.



I read most of the ones I have when I was just starting out and learned much from them. I have never read one which gave the impression that there is only one way to write. I also think you are not giving new writers credit for much intelligence. They will quickly find what advice works for them and what doesn't, they don't need protection.


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## Kyle R (Aug 27, 2015)

Dogmatic and misleading advice can come from many sources, including writerly forums. At the very least, instructional authors have taken the time to construct a persuasive argument for whatever it is they may be teaching, and this is the argument they always begin their books with. It's also the argument from which the reader can decide whether or not the book will helpful for them.

Yes, the approach you find in a book may not work for you, that's true. There is no one size that fits all.

In life, you have to find your own way. Sometimes this means eating a few bologna sandwiches before you discover that you prefer ham and swiss.

But oh, it sure feels great if (and/or when) you finally find a sandwich (or an instructional book) that works for you!

Question the teachings you encounter along the way, for sure! Don't blindly follow every wiseman who crosses your path. Even well-intentioned advice might not fit your groove.

But at the same time, don't close yourself off to learning opportunities, either. The moment you think you have nothing more to learn, that's the moment you stop improving. :encouragement:


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## shadowwalker (Aug 27, 2015)

Kyle R said:


> But at the same time, don't close yourself off to learning opportunities, either. The moment you think you have nothing more to learn, that's the moment you stop improving. :encouragement:



_Never _said close yourself off from learning. Just saying why I will never recommend how-to books to anyone who hasn't at least written enough to know what their strengths and weaknesses actually are.


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## Mike C (Aug 28, 2015)

Rules are put out there to convince people that anyone can write a book as long as they stick to the rules. People who put forward x rules for writing a novel, beat them with a stick until they stop moving. Then beat them a bit more. They are the enemy of creativity.


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## voltigeur (Aug 28, 2015)

> There is value to these books - but not for someone just starting out.



As a new writer I have to disagree with this statement. When I started writing I sought out information on how to write must like most other writers when they start they are looking for information on how to write effectively.For me this forum, U-Tube videos and yes “How To” books were all on that list. 

I read 2 that helped me get started and they were more about story construction rather than rules for writing. Thank god I read them at the very start of the process! My writing in those first months was confused I left out huge gaps of information and I had info dumps all over the place. 

The books were not the only source of information. I think the in person mentors were singularly the most valuable. When pointing out plot holes and other mistakes hearing someone’s tone of voice and seeing their body language helps you understand it is not personal. 
I tend to have a healthy problem with authority so the second an instructor tries to tell me “my way is the only way” I immediately become extremely suspect. I check his credentials and wow 90% these kinds of authors don’t have the back ground to be telling anyone anything.

If I was still in the dynamic that my story had to be written from page 1 to the end I would have given up 9 months ago. On my WIP I am currently at 29,000 words that I can consider being decent. I have written over 100,000 that means just under 2/3 of what I’ve written is just crap. So how long was I supposed to keep beating my head against the wall?

From these books I learned how to construct and communicate a story. If I didn’t learn the rules or shunned information simply because it was in a book I would still be stuck. I would not be experiencing the emotional by in that my beta readers are showing.

I am picky about who I read and listen to.  I would never tell a new writer to shy away from any medium. If I knew a book was written by someone that wasn’t qualified to be writing about writing I may steer them away from that individual work but not all “How To” books.
There are rules but they apply differently based on your creative process, genre, audience and a myriad of other considerations. Everyone has to look at advice with a critical eye.


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## Terry D (Aug 28, 2015)

People rail against 'rules' all the time, but the fact is, there are rules -- rules that we follow every time we communicate with words. Rules that govern spelling, punctuation, and grammar on the micro scale, and story structure, character development, and plot development on the macro scale. I'm sure someone has written a story backward at some point in history (just as a book was once written without using the letter 'e'), but if you tried to make a living doing that you would starve. So we should stop complaining about how bad rules are. What 'how-to' books try to teach are not 'rules', but techniques. The selection and practice of techniques is absolutely essential to growth and eventual mastery of any craft. Make no mistake about it, writing is as much craft as it is art -- perhaps more-so -- and, as such, writers need to choose the techniques they are going to use. You can find them by experimentation, in the classroom, from books, by reading the work of others, or from a mentor. One method is more valuable than another only when it works for you. These techniques, and the true rules that we follow all the time, are not the "enemy of creativity" but are, rather, the conduit which allows creativity to be expressed and understood.


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## shadowwalker (Aug 28, 2015)

voltigeur said:


> If I was still in the dynamic that my story had to be written from page 1 to the end I would have given up 9 months ago.



And yet you will find authors who claim that's exactly what you should do. You will find books that tell you you can't write a coherent story without an outline. You will find books that tell you outlines make for dull writing.

The difference between how-to books and forums is _discussion_. If someone came onto these forums making statements that I have found in books, there would be an immediate bombardment of disagreement - just reading the book will not give you both sides of the story. Only because I have done exactly what some authors tell me I shouldn't do did I realize that they are not God. If I hadn't been writing for some time with "only" the benefit of English classes, I would have been totally screwed.

But for those who keep saying how wonderful they are, I'd like to know which ones are so wonderful, and which ones were awful, and how much of the advice in the "good" books was actually used, and how you decided it was good, and then compare lists and how each person writes and, you know, all the variables that are out there. 'Cause there's a lot of people writing these books, and it'd be kinda nice to see just how to find the book(s) that will actually help the individual and not tell them to stop doing the stuff they do well and start doing the stuff they're lousy at, or maybe how to decide what to do when Famous Author A says X and Famous Author B says Y...


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## Terry D (Aug 28, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> And yet you will find authors who claim that's exactly what you should do. You will find books that tell you you can't write a coherent story without an outline. You will find books that tell you outlines make for dull writing.
> 
> The difference between how-to books and forums is _discussion_. If someone came onto these forums making statements that I have found in books, there would be an immediate bombardment of disagreement - just reading the book will not give you both sides of the story. Only because I have done exactly what some authors tell me I shouldn't do did I realize that they are not God. If I hadn't been writing for some time with "only" the benefit of English classes, I would have been totally screwed.
> 
> But for those who keep saying how wonderful they are, I'd like to know which ones are so wonderful, and which ones were awful, and how much of the advice in the "good" books was actually used, and how you decided it was good, and then compare lists and how each person writes and, you know, all the variables that are out there. 'Cause there's a lot of people writing these books, and it'd be kinda nice to see just how to find the book(s) that will actually help the individual and not tell them to stop doing the stuff they do well and start doing the stuff they're lousy at, or maybe how to decide what to do when Famous Author A says X and Famous Author B says Y...



Sorry, but I must have missed the writing book authored by someone claiming to be God. If a new writer is ignorant enough to think he/she can get everything they need to write a book out of another book they will learn quickly that that's not the case. See, they learned something valuable!

I haven't seen anyone use the word "wonderful" to describe any of these books. That's your word, and a prejudicial one IMO. The word most often used has been "helpful". That one is accurate for many people, whether you like it or not. This past March I attended a large writer's conference and in several of the breakout sessions working writers mentioned books they had found helpful (No, not their own books, or books by any other writer at the conference). So, while, your position is fine for you, I don't think your blanket condemnation of 'how-to' books holds much water.

As for books that have helped me?_ Writing the Novel from Plot to Print_, _Telling Lies for Fun and Profit_, and _Spider Spin Me a Web_, by Lawrence Block were all helpful in introducing me to the inside story of the publishing business and in understanding that the writing process is very individual (he discusses plotting, but clearly states that he's not usually a plotter and tells the reader why). I can't tell you which of the techniques he covers made their way into my writing, probably none as a fully realized technique, but I can assure you, many of the things he said_ influenced_ my writing, just as all the Bradbury, and Poe I read as a child influenced my writing. Speaking of Bradbury, Ray wrote a nice book on creativity called _Zen in the Art of Fiction_. William Nolan's, _How to Write Horror Fiction_ introduced me very early on to basic story structure and character creation; putting into words what I already 'knew' from reading scads of horror stories. Did I need Nolan to tell me how to make a horror story effective? Probably not, but what he did was to show me why the things I was doing were effective at a time when I didn't yet understand. Any craftsman will tell you it's always good for your learning curve to know why you are doing something, not just how to do it.

None of those books ever told me to stop doing anything. They all were clear about saying that this is what works for me, it might work for you too. In short they treat their readers with respect and encouragement.


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## voltigeur (Aug 28, 2015)

The 2 books I used were:


The Essential Guide to Writing a Novel (James Thayer) – This book really advocated seeking knowledge from other sources. It provided some basic structure knowledge. (At least what I got out of it.)
Story Engineering (Larry Brooks) – I learned most of what I know about story structure what makes a story work.
 
Ellen Brock and Michael Levin have videos on U-Tube that I found very helpful. Got good information on publishing and how agents editors and publishers look at the field.

The rest of my “training” came from the people in my 2 writing groups. Most of them make at least part of their income from writing. One lady in particular who used to be an editor helped me navigate way from advice that didn’t apply to the genre that I write in. She has been the most helpful because in the beginning she got what I am trying to write.

She has been that steady hand, when I was being told that I could use 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] person omniscient or refer to the weather or any of the other story killer other amateurs swear will get me rejected. Her advice often was “trust your gut.” 

I know the other influences muddy the waters but for me the books were a good place to start.


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## Mike C (Sep 2, 2015)

Terry D said:


> People rail against 'rules' all the time, but the fact is, there are rules -- rules that we follow every time we communicate with words.



Indeed, I can't agree more. But there are good rules - learn how to spell, how to punctuate, learn how to use adverbs and adjectives effectively rather than just to bloat your word count, learn the difference between showing and telling, active and passive, and when to use one over the other, it's all good, it all makes you better technically as a writer.

But the seemingly endless posts that give you 3, 5, 10, 12, rules on how to write a novel? Drivel. If you want to know _how_ to write a novel, _read_ novels, not empty words from nobodies about _how_ they think _you_ should be writing.

And now I've used up my full quota of italics for the month. good rule? Don't overuse italics. Bad rule? You mustn't italicise more than 4 words a month.


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