# Anyone else dissapointed by y/a fiction these days?



## bookmasta (Dec 10, 2013)

I was at Barnes and Noble the other day in search of some new books to read. Being nineteen and on the older end of the young adult genre, I made the mistake of looking under the mentioned section. The results were disappointing. Every single book, aside from The Hunger Games and Harry Potter Series, (and I'm not exaggerating) had to with werewolves, vampires, or some other supernatural force accompanied by an end of days plotline. Six shelves and a lot disappointment later, I gave up and settled on looking under Steven King where I found The Green Mile and a few other interesting reads. But still, are all these authors following the crazed obsession between werewolves and vampires that proceeded the Twilight Series in an attempt to get in on it, or is this actually what the younger generation is into? (Which scares me) Or am I missing something else completely? I didn't mean to go on a rant, it was just something that I came across and made me think why?


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## popsprocket (Dec 10, 2013)

You have to look at YA through the right lense.

Considering the demographics that it is targeted at, writing something that is entertaining above all else is the key to selling books. They don't want to read things with big questions about life and the universe. They want to read about romance and action and turn their brains off as though they are watching a Michael Bay movie.

Which is where everything being the same comes in. There's a reason that action movies all follow the same formula.

Despite that, I am more than a bit curious to see what trends next. Even though most people probably stop reading YA before they realise that it panders to them quite so directly, it will definitely have to change one day. What it changes to could be interesting to see.


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## krishan (Dec 14, 2013)

You might have more luck looking online. Young Adult is a fairly varied genre, but it's not always best-represented by the selections that can be found in bookstores. Goodreads can be really helpful when it comes to making recommendations for books that might be to your taste.


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## The Tourist (Dec 14, 2013)

I hate to rain on your parade, but you just made your first step into the adult world, that being the "commerce."

Your opening line mentioned Barnes and Noble.  My wife and I go there roughly four times per week.  Clearly they strive to practice what promoters on Broadway used to refer to as "butts in the seats."  they make money by providing current books, fan-boy toys and games, expensive coffee and free Wi-Fi.

Here's an example.  Recently the 50th anniversary of the JFK assassination was in the news.  I'm of an age that remember it.  So what was on the tables near the door?  Why, it was every book on every conspiracy theory ever proffered--and expensive coffee...

The YA fiction you saw is certainly marginal, but so is most of the other stuff.  I've walked in the stacks, and frankly +80% of their inventory should be prima facie evidence for tree murder.  But it turns a profit.

If you wish to produce cutting edge YA fiction, my hat's off to you.  I encourage innovation, tight research, and unique plots.  But be warned to keep your day job, with the proviso that one of the most popular musicals ever produced was the story of an alley cat dying, but it put butts in the seats for decades.


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## Foxee (Dec 14, 2013)

bookmasta said:


> I was at Barnes and Noble the other day in search of some new books to read. Being nineteen and on the older end of the young adult genre, I made the mistake of looking under the mentioned section. The results were disappointing. Every single book, aside from The Hunger Games and Harry Potter Series, (and I'm not exaggerating) had to with werewolves, vampires, or some other supernatural force accompanied by an end of days plotline. Six shelves and a lot disappointment later, I gave up and settled on looking under Steven King where I found The Green Mile and a few other interesting reads. But still, are all these authors following the crazed obsession between werewolves and vampires that proceeded the Twilight Series in an attempt to get in on it, or is this actually what the younger generation is into? (Which scares me) Or am I missing something else completely? I didn't mean to go on a rant, it was just something that I came across and made me think why?


Thank you for bringing this up! I was wondering the same thing when I was in the YA section of the library looking for a specific book for my daughter (Margaret Peterson Haddix has a couple different series of books that she likes) and had a look around the whole section while I was there. It was a disappointing experience with the stories of vampires, werewolves, and witches filling the shelves. I thought that maybe it was just the library being at the mercy of donations but if this is what the YA segment really is it looks like there's room for some fresh ideas and much better writing.


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## popsprocket (Dec 14, 2013)

I predict the next YA trend will be about strong young female protagonists who have to join a pirate crew to [insert world-saving plot device] where they meet [insert  one or more hot guys] who she is unable to choose between [insert faux drama].


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## The Tourist (Dec 14, 2013)

popsprocket said:


> I predict the next YA...



I also have a prediction.  Perhaps we should start a new thread, proceeds going to charity.

I predict by the a 5:3 ratio the next YA best seller will have a strong female lead, an expert with some form of medieval weapon.  I was hoping for Japanese implements, but THG didn't include any Asians.

I predict by the ratio of 12:1 that this female lead will be described as having "long diaphanous hair."

I predict, as my long shot favorite, either this female lead (or a close friend) will be named "Skylar."

Any takers?


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## popsprocket (Dec 14, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> "Skylar."



Quirky without being inaccessible, can easily fit into an Earth or a non-Earth setting. A perfect name!


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## The Tourist (Dec 14, 2013)

popsprocket said:


> Quirky without being inaccessible, can easily fit into an Earth or a non-Earth setting. A perfect name!



'Sprocket, here's a thought.  The OP states that he is disappointed with YA to date.  Well, I don't care what people think, you're a mod--why don't we collaborate a truly original piece of YA for this forum?

_"Skylar loosened her taut grip on the Saxon mace upon seeing her visage in the 'Ode To Jennifer Lawrence' reflection pool.  Her diaphanous tresses were matted and uneven from her days fighting the transgressions of the villainous Arch Duke, the entrenched head of new product development of Global Massengill.  Moreover she was famished and desired moo goo gai pan, but New Earth hadn't seen an Asian survivor for over one hundred years.  And her pirate crew had scoured the realm in that pursuit..."_

Hey, it's a rough draft.


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## Pluralized (Dec 14, 2013)

> _upon seeing her visage in the 'Ode To Jennifer Lawrence' reflection pool_



I just about blew a gasket on my shovelhead. Nice work.


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## The Tourist (Dec 14, 2013)

Pluralized said:


> I just about blew a gasket on my shovelhead. Nice work.



Glad you enjoyed it.  And while I wrote it in humor to make a point, we could make it a legitimate writing assignment.  We have lots of creative people here.  Maybe the time has come for decent YA.


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## Foxee (Dec 14, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Maybe the time has come for decent YA.


Couldn't agree more.


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## Folcro (Dec 14, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> I hate to rain on your parade, but you just made your first step into the adult world, that being the "commerce."



In a word, well, this.

But I do believe that, with the rising popularity of independent publishing (such as Amazon, which I use), there is far more room for people who write as a _hobby_ (instead of making money and then more money) to get their work out. As IP is still in its infancy, it is our turn (the consumer), at least, those of us who yearn for higher quality, to stop letting _Barnes and Noble_ and other corporations point us around and DO OUR OWN RESEARCH. There is an amazing world of good stuff out there. The difference is: we have to work a little harder to find what appeals to _us_.

Let commercialism do the work for you and, well, continue to expect _Twilight _again and again.


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## The Tourist (Dec 14, 2013)

Folcro said:


> Let commercialism do the work for you and, well, continue to expect _Twilight _again and again.



But that is exactly what is happening.  Even with the advent of social media and self-publishing we're still up to our keesters in zombie/fairy/werewolf stories.  And don't forget the 'strong female lead.'

Let me show you a ridiculous example.  Some of the products I sell are made by the ESEE company.  One of the items--and not a popular one--was their own broadhead arrowtip for survivalists.  When THG movie came out, one of the baristas asked me for one of these tips.  I made a call to my inside sales rep, and they were back-ordered.  _The fan-boys had bought out the complete inventory in a matter of days_.

Now the big question.  If most modern folks have a computer, and since self-publishing is gaining in popularity, and we can write and research whatever we want whenever we want, why does the YA scene keep grinding out the same story, with the same leads?

It reminds me of an old joke about a special edition of Playboy marketed to married men.  Same articles  as the usual issue, but the same centerfold month after month...

I'll make another prediction.  The next guy that gets lightning in a bottle and creates "the next big thing" will also spawn another torrent of wannabees.   I think the answer to YA is a concept I call "OW.

It stands for "old writers."


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## popsprocket (Dec 14, 2013)

For Christmas I bought my sister a book. She's 23. She reads YA like there's no tomorrow (despite being an intelligent person).

And so I looked around for YA stuff to buy her - anything popular that didn't sound like total crap was the goal. I looked in book stores and I looked online and I looked at self-published stuff. And it was still all the same. The stories moving high volumes were the same as the ones moving low volumes. They almost exclusively involved a love triangle with a foregone conclusion set in a vaguely original setting and led by a girl who discovers she's not a worthless barbie and is able to fight. Zombies, werewolves, vampires and post-apocalyptic settings abound.

So: I don't think self-publishing has done anything for the market. Not yet at least. The stuff targeted at boys was little more varied and mostly consisted of high fantasy with young characters, so I'm not picking on 'SHE'S A STRONG WIMMEN WHO DON'T NEED NO MAN' types of books, because the rest aren't any better.

The real trouble in doing something new is making it similar enough to what's already out there that readers won't immediately turn their nose up at it for not being exactly what they're expecting.


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## Folcro (Dec 14, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> The next guy that gets lightning in a bottle and creates "the next big thing" will also spawn another torrent of wannabees.



I too have a prediction: soon there will be so many "next big things" that they won't be big anymore. Mainstream affairs like Hunger Games, Twilight and such rubbish will diminish--- not disappear, mind you, but diminish. Smaller, cult-like works will expand (not explode) and become more accessible and diverse.

So long as there are people not quite invested enough to strive for something that speaks to them (the "casual" crowd)--- and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them, we each care about our own things--- there will be "casual" entertainment. But soon, that will be the word we use: "casual" instead of "mainstream." 

That's my prediction, anyway. Or, perhaps, my wish. I often confuse the two.


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## popsprocket (Dec 14, 2013)

Folcro said:


> That's my prediction, anyway. Or, perhaps, my wish. I often confuse the two.



No I actually think that's a pretty fair idea of the genre's future.

Given the sheer volume of cookie-cutter YA books that don't achieve large volume sales, I'd say that the market is approaching saturation - if it weren't then all werewolf-vampire-love-triangle books would be selling well. Readers are becoming more discerning. So there remains only the options of facilitating a large shift in direction or letting the readership fracture into smaller sub-markets who desire books with narrower appeal. For anyone who wants to cash in it still remains a question of predicting where the chips will fall and writing something that suits. I'm still rooting for pirates.


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## The Tourist (Dec 14, 2013)

Folcro said:


> I too have a prediction: soon there will be so many "next big things" that they won't be big anymore. Mainstream affairs like Hunger Games, Twilight and such rubbish will diminish--- not disappear, mind you, but diminish.



You might be right.  I saw a report about Hollywood blockbusters, and the opinion that smaller movies might make more money per dollar invested.

But big or small, you have to provide a commodity that people want to purchase.  I notice you use the word "rubbish."  That has to change.


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## Folcro (Dec 14, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> smaller movies might make more money per dollar invested.



That's actually another good point to factor in--- the appeal of smaller/independent publishing's being less expensive to produce. 

As for my use of the word "rubbish", I of course mean _critical _rubbish (or my little universe entailing proper criticism). One man's trash and all that.


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## The Tourist (Dec 14, 2013)

Folcro said:


> One man's trash and all that.



I'd like to be hopeful, but I'm not.  Let me give you an example.

I was at the gym last week and I made a reference to Oedipus Rex to a woman in her late twenties.  She'd never heard the story.  At first she thought I was just spinning a yarn, but when I convinced her it was a classic, her first question was, _"Wouldn't his mother have been older than he was?"_

My theory on why YA fiction is popular is not original, it comes from Hunter Thompson.  He wrote that people feared the Angels of the 1960s, but also secretly wanted to be able to stand up to society.  Vampires and werewolves kill, rampage, breed and operate outside convention with impunity, they just don't own the bikes...

When you live in your mom's basement and your high school life is a smorgasbord of swirlies, wedgies, purple nurples and dateless proms, I imagine that howling at the moon is a thrilling idea.


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 14, 2013)

Look here http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/7362.YA_Novels_of_2013

I can't stand the "big issue" novels (stories about bulimia, cancer, homophobia, etc.).  In my opinion, novels shouldn't be about issues.  They should be about adventure.  Consider Lord of the Flies.  It isn't about politics and war.  Its about kids surviving on an island. Politics and war are meta.  Treasure Island isn't about trust.  Its about pirates.  Trust is meta.  
Nowadays, I see an awful lot of YA novels where "big issues" are what the book is about.  Its like an old "Afternoon Special" with a cheap Harlequin romance tossed in.
As for "end of the world by supernatural means", the only recent YA novel like this that I know of is Percy Jackson, The Lightning Thief.


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## Folcro (Dec 14, 2013)

Well, and I know this isn't a popular opinion, I think Oedipus was a little overrated. But yes, people should be aware of the impact this story had on literature, and perhaps some of the ironic plot devices Sophocles used. That's more of an education thing... which may serve to show just how deep this little rabbit hole of a cultural problem delves... As for people with boring lives yearning for more, I can definitely see how it is easy for a common "mainstream" story to appeal to them, but I don't see why a more literary, intelligent story can't. Your own example of Oedipus provides ample drama... especially for those with odd fantasies.

But I can certainly see your hopelessness. All I can say is wait and see. Things are changing. I can't say definitively for better or worse, or if this change I'm touting as revolutionary is little more a change than those that happen all the time... but things are changing. I don't think this fad that makes vampires and werewolves popular will last long. After all, it's not like it dates back very far...

And Rocket, I agree. "Big Issues" can make great _elements_ for a story, or background devices. But they should not be the _story_.


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## The Tourist (Dec 14, 2013)

Folcro said:


> But I can certainly see your hopelessness. All I can say is wait and see. Things are changing.



Fair enough.  But how?  What themes do you see emerging?

My fear is that YA is just going to lock itself into hair and make-up with stylish fashion for the beautifully undead.  The slang term for romance novels is "bodice ripper."  This is due to the fact that the readers (i.e., "follow the money") wanted that form of entertainment, didn't mind that the stories were essentially a set formula, and found perverse joy in the racy covers.

I'm wondering if this same concept is already galvanizing YA.  We already have a loose formula (boy meets girl, then eats her parents) culminating into nobody has homework, exams, they all have trendy clothes and no one ages into a boring adult.

I don't think you can mess with that--at least now.  Oh, Skylar might delve into biogenetics, but with our current mindset, she'll just dedicate her life to making low cost lufa exfoliating products for all the starving children in Africa--unless it's a full moon...

So what is your positive idea?


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 14, 2013)

One of the best ways to kill a trend is to write a really good spoof of it.

So, go write that "boy falls in love with girl then eats her parents" novel.  Make it great.


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## The Tourist (Dec 14, 2013)

Justin Rocket said:


> One of the best ways to kill a trend is to write a really good spoof of it.
> 
> So, go write that "boy falls in love with girl then eats her parents" novel.  Make it great.



I'm not saying we destroy the genre, the premise here is to improve it.  I'm frankly at a loss on how to get that age demographic to read better stuff, or a least desire more creative plots.


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## popsprocket (Dec 14, 2013)

To show them that better plots exist.

It's the same issue as producing cheaper films. They're often amazing and compared to their big cousins they perform amazingly well on a financial front, but you still don't get 14 year old boys lining up to see _Drive.
_
So the idea is to help the genre evolve at a pace the readers find acceptable.

Don't ask me how...


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## Folcro (Dec 14, 2013)

The basis of my confidence (which, I'll admit, isn't as bright as my devil's advocate-persona is making it appear) is mainly set on the fact that, in the scheme of things, this "invasion of the bodice-rippers" (copyright folcro) into YA hasn't been around for very long. Now, it is very possible that this is the beginning of the way things are going to be for a while... but the way I see it, there is just as much (or should I say little) reason to believe that things can change again.

Still, I think a big part of the problem stems from the education of young people... which I definitely do NOT see improving (including, but not limited to, the loss of emphasis on the arts) at least here in America. So, perhaps my hope will be short-lived. Oh well; perhaps it shall be my task to be the light in the coming darkness, and the task of those like me.


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 15, 2013)

"read better stuff", "the problem stems from the education of young people", etc.  That's very judgemental.  You can't prove, objectively, that what they are reading is crap (one person's crap is another's fertilizer).  Just write and read what you want to.

Personally, I want to write YA modern fantasy without sparkly vampires.  Part of my motivation for doing that is that there don't seem to be very many male authors writing YA for boys.  The novel I'm writing right now has a protag who accidentally shot and killed his brother in an accident a couple of years before the story starts and, in the story, learns that he's the incarnation of Loki and can save the world or destroy it (via Ragnorok).  The book is very fast paced (my beta readers have all independently reported that it got their hearts racing).  The book's "big issues" are 'the limits of morality' and 'fate vs. destiny'.
So, I might be a bit sensitive to anyone throwing supernatural armageddon in the same pot with sparkly vampire lover boys.


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## The Tourist (Dec 15, 2013)

Folcro said:


> The basis of my confidence (which, I'll admit, isn't as bright as my devil's advocate-persona is making it appear).



Okay, let's go with the worst case scenario.  The genre of YA goes on for fifty years, never changes, and someday The Academy gives an Oscar for "The Best Supporting Zombie."  May I be the first one to say, "Who cares?"

But I get the idea we'd all like a "neophyte age-challenged cinema and written word" to actually be enriching.  So what if YA is not the font?  What if historical fiction breaks the barrier?  Suppose "holograms as books" is the next big thing?

In other words, just as romance novels rose and fell and still are dying a lingering death, what if this is also the fate of YA and innovation brings us something new and better?

Discussions of lust, angst, fangs and heavy petting aren't on my scope anyway.  We could just be charitable and let them have it.


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## Folcro (Dec 15, 2013)

Justin Rocket said:


> That's very judgemental.  You can't prove, objectively, that what they are reading is crap



Sure I can: Plot holes; grammatical/syntax errors; botched themes and backwards logic. These things derive not from opinion but from fact: the fact is, the authors of many front-line books practically spell that they care little for the plot and prose and more for the sheer excitement of the theme. 

But I digress. I'm actually starting to think that things might be better as they are. Perhaps the literary works that actually contribute to the growing mind of a young person are better left to those with the taste and tenacity to pursue them. Still, I think they should at least be made aware of their existence. This comes more or less from education.



			
				The Tourist said:
			
		

> In other words, just as romance novels rose and fell and still are dying  a lingering death, what if this is also the fate of YA and innovation  brings us something new and better?



I hadn't thought about that. It's a refreshing possibility, actually.


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## The Tourist (Dec 15, 2013)

Justin Rocket said:


> "read better stuff"...That's very judgemental.  You can't prove, objectively, that what they are reading is crap



It's called discretion, and the application of free choice.  Contrary to the buzzwords and the argot not everyone who choses something different is a "hater."  YA is simplistic, and I aver that as someone who has played several games of "Clue."  When you see the punchline coming from the parking lot it's not good literature.

And frankly, when you address someone who is in his sixties, I'd advise you to ponder that I have forgotten more than you have ever learned.  As I told a member this morning in a PM, I don't need or care for permission to think and comment on any facet of the human experience.  Or as we graybeards state, _"Been there, done that, invented half of it."_

Whether I speak my mind or let you bask in willful unschooled bliss, THG is not Wuthering Heights, it's more of a fall from heights.  And never ask me to keep silent, rather you'd benefit by just doing better.



			
				Folcro said:
			
		

> I hadn't thought about that. It's a refreshing possibility, actually.



I wish I could take credit for it, but consider this.  They put ready made marinara in glass jars, the product of a factory's break-neck volume production.  Doesn't matter to me, I still prefer angel-hair and white sauce.  Eh, just my upbringing.  I asked my Aunt Clara what she called a folding knife that didn't open with a spring.  She shrugged and said, "_Broken_."


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 15, 2013)

> Sure I can: Plot holes; grammatical/syntax errors; botched themes and backwards logic



I wonder how many front-line YA novels you've *actually* analyzed.  There's more out there then just Twilight knock-offs.  Have you read _The Fault in Our Stars_ or _The Boy in the Striped Pajamas_?


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## Folcro (Dec 15, 2013)

Actually, it seems the romance in "fault" was very similar to the hollow, forced development of edward and bella. Meeting spontaneously, he stares at her, says she looks like an actress, she's reluctant but he's so attractive. As for "striped pajamas", maybe i'll give it a read. Maybe it's the book that will turn things around. 

I'm not saying there aren't good books that come out. It's like the food industry and the music industry. Some of it isn't so bad, but it takes effort to find. And as I've alluded to before, perhaps this is as nature intended.


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 15, 2013)

> I'm not saying there aren't good books that come out.



So, let's see a list of recent YA novels that you liked


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## Folcro (Dec 15, 2013)

I'll give striped pajamas a try and let you know what I think


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## Gargh (Dec 15, 2013)

The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas is a great book. 

I read a lot of children's fiction and YA as well as the usual stuff because good writing exists somewhere in every age range and every genre. I like Michael Morpurgo - especially Kaspar, Prince of Cats - because he doesn't make value judgements. He uncovers the story and lets the readership process what it means to them. He seems to have a really good understanding of how hard you can pluck a string without breaking it, for that age range.  Diana Wynne Jones is a good read too. As much as I adore Studio Ghibli, Howl's Moving Castle is a much better book than it is film. Angsty, sweaty, experimental teenage relationships will always exist somewhere in YA but they are only one part of the story for her, not all of it. Her characters also have meaningful relationships with adults, siblings, pets, friends etc. 

I dislike the lack of diversity in available teen reading. There will always be these daft, hormonal fluff books, they're no worse than adult 'airport' books. My sister, to my chagrin, used to read the atrocious Sweet Valley High series and the slightly better Judy Blume. I read adult books because that was the alternative. I think that's what it feels like now; that there's no variety in YA. It's either YA fluff or non-fluff adult fiction, no in-betweens. However, I think that has more to do with publishing choices than any dearth of available material. If you think about what you have to go through to get anywhere near being published (traditionally) in the industry, it's no wonder it's mostly trite. Agents want things they can guarantee to sell, as do publishers. Most customers buying YA want easy choices as well because the market is so over-saturated they find it difficult to choose. It's the common economic problem, whereby a 'free' market is capitalised upon and bled dry until the controlling interests become giddy with power and begin prescribing what demand is. Hopefully that will change though, eventually; I think it just takes longer for people under modern life pressures to push back. Currently there's a trend to hot-housing then out-sourcing plot-lines to be written. I find that very difficult, again because of how limiting it is to variety and choice.


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## Jeko (Dec 15, 2013)

It's looks bad from the outside; imagine being part of the target market...

Typical, commercial fiction aside, there are some authors who try to push some boundaries. Meg Rosoff and John Green to name a couple. Everything else is readable and forgettable, the latter of which being, for the most part, a good thing.


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## The Tourist (Dec 15, 2013)

Cadence said:


> readable and forgettable



That's precisely the issue, and I'm not sure we're doing kids any favors.

For example, I have a four year college degree.  When I was in my early thirties I found that I had more of a factual, practical education than those only a few years younger than myself, but armed with a Masters.

What truly surprised me, as I've mentioned, was reading and learning about the letters sent home by Civil War soldiers.  Their use of language, sentence structure and vocabulary was surprising, their prose reading like Elizabethan literature.

Now people infect their writing with emoticons.  What's next?  The first 140 character YA novel?

You might view the topic of YA "literature" as a choice or a distinct genre.  Considering the position we came from and where we ended up, it looks like a national dumbing down.  We used to make steel here, now we make excuses.  I truly believe this genre has completely removed the stimulation to strive.

Considering werewolves, vampires and strong female leads, one pundit wrote that successful sit-coms might have a crisis in their plot, but everything has to be returned to the basic arc by the end of the half hour TV show.  Taken to a conclusion, YA is the delineation of "don't rock the boat."  So who's the real loser?


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## Gavrushka (Dec 15, 2013)

I do understand there is a YA category, but what is it that defines it as such? Is it a style, or is it based on the age group that gravitate towards it?

I seem to remember someone describing David Eddings The Belgariad as Young Adult, but I'd just thought of it as Fantasy. - Sorry, I know I'm tangential to the thread's purpose!


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## Kevin (Dec 15, 2013)

The great oracle (wiki) says it is aimed at readers between 14 and twenty. It is often plot driven and situational rather than character driven. Further reading, other places, suggest that it encompasses a wide range of styles and degrees of sophistication.


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## Gavrushka (Dec 15, 2013)

It's funny how, with the immensity of wiki a click away, many of us still prefer receiving information from our peers. - I've since looked on the site, and YA fiction did strike me as a fairly confused / ambiguous category.

To paraphrase. 'Young Adult literature is a category read by those aged 12 through to 18, however it's not, as 55% of those who read it are over 18'. Well, it made me smile.


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## The Tourist (Dec 15, 2013)

Kevin said:


> The great oracle (wiki) says it is aimed at readers between 14 and twenty. It is often plot driven and situational rather than character driven. Further reading, other places, suggest that it encompasses a wide range of styles and degrees of sophistication.



Kevin, think how that shakes out when compared to our education(s).

At fourteen I was reading and understanding Shakespeare.  At twenty I was a sophomore in college.  I quit watching 1930's vampire movies when I was about ten.

But more to the issue is the tipping point where fantasy is simply too fantastic to be real at any level.  Let me give you a fer-instance.  Let's suppose that Skylar, the fourteen year old altruistic freedom fighter for all that is good and pure and just whilst using homeopathic hair-care products to ensure her diaphanous locks always look like she's standing a light breeze showing her good side, decides to take a bow and arrow and defend the unwashed against injustice and acne.

I figure it's less than 90 seconds before a SWAT team riddles her Barbie Dream House to rubble with  suppressive fire.

Vampires?  I have lots of deadfall and sharp knives.  I can whittle stakes until an aged Robert Pattinson needs dental fang implants.

Werewolves?  We have lots of Hmong in my area bringing with them their traditional customs and diets.  The influx of protein into their meals would be a welcomed enrichment.

Oh, I get magic wands and flying carpets.  I even understand the premise of a zombie plague.  But once you inject your storyline into a realistic and palpable rendition of actual society, then expect that the elements of that society to act and react in a linear, traditional fashion.


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## Gavrushka (Dec 15, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Oh, I get magic wands and flying carpets.  I even understand the premise of a zombie plague.  But once you inject your storyline into a realistic and palpable rendition of actual society, then expect that the elements of that society to act and react in a linear, traditional fashion.



Isn't it a huge opportunity missed? - When society is confronted by an utterly alien scenario, it wouldn't be absorbed and accepted, but faced with realism, it could make for exceptional prose. - Something big, alien and powerful comes along and we'd destroy it. We'd leap up and down on its shattered remains until they were less than a bloody smear. We'd not want to have a physical relationship with it, or reason with it, or absorb it into our society. I am sure humankind is the distilled essence of xenophobia, and we'd not be able to deny who we were...

...Of course it was a sexy female beauty in thigh boots, there could be scope for negotiation.


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## The Tourist (Dec 15, 2013)

Gavrushka said:


> confronted...we'd destroy it...a sexy female beauty in thigh boots



I see you've been to our saloon.  Any interloper who would barge in would be greeted in that exact fashion.  A biker chick would shoot him...

And that's the problem.  How many times have you seen the movie hero use a chair to smack an enemy soldier holding an automatic weapon?  It's standard fare.  Also standard is that the hero leaves the rifle on the ground and runs into the next scene.

Not reality.  In WWII the allies dropped a simple, sheet metal framed pistol behind enemy lines.  It cost less than two dollars at that time, came with instructions in comic book form, and with no ejector or extractor, the spent case was poked out with a small wooden dole.  It was designed to be used once--to sneak up behind a Nazi, shoot him in the back of  the head and "liberate" his weapon.

It's how people react to real problems, it's inductive.

So, my ultimate problem with YA is that in an attempt to infuse fantasy into a plot they violate any and all practical applications they find undermines their arc.  If gravity foils their vision, Skylar will find shampoo that dampens the earth's pull.  Sunlight restricts 12 hours of plot?  Heck, your vampire has an Egyptian talisman to combat that, mostly likely smuggled in from the last Kryptonian transport.

Want to talk to a snake, just slur your speech so the camera catches it...

http://vintageordnance.homestead.com/Liberator.html


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## The Tourist (Dec 15, 2013)

Before I go to the gym, I'd like to offer a seemingly simple solution.  I think the unrealistic and fantastic nature of the genre derives from a common problem, that being that the writer does not immerse himself in the world.  Let me explain.

As a boy, I walked everywhere.  The telephone was for adults.  The outer reaches of your sphere were dictated by how far you could pedal your bicycle.  Without knowing it, you heard bits and snatches of real conversations, and saw adults in commerce utilizing problem solving.

Modern kids rope themselves off.  They do not walk anywhere.  Music piped into ear-buds drowns out any ancillary information.  Their friends are equally clueless and they wind up repeating ideals of "society" largely the product of reality TV and urban legends.

Then they sit down and "write what they know" seeking entertainment reflecting the same.  At it's core, the trials of Katniss are simply "Rebel Without A Cause" recycled into a cinematic video game.

While I am openly critical of the genre, I think the real problem is that so much fabric of society is being missed because they do not even realize it exists.  They never talked to a real decorated soldier, so they look for strong female leads.  What they know about my life--if anything at all--is just a rehash of Easy Rider and SOA.  Soundbytes and misconceptions.

Do they even know who Jack Kerouac is (without google) or why he was important?


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## Gavrushka (Dec 15, 2013)

I may have misread, but isn't that built on the premise that the _authors_ are young adults? Or are you saying that the authors write YA novels taking into account that they believe kids are isolated from the real world?


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## Gargh (Dec 15, 2013)

The times I've wished for a red pen on the internet... I desperately want to put quotation marks round every instance of anyone mentioning a "strong" female lead... but that's another thread!

I think the biggest problem, still, is that authors aren't writing the majority of fiction, YA or not. They're being written/produced by think-tanks, formulas, tick lists and on an ever-decreasing schedule. Just think about the amount of time taken by Tolkein to write any part of the Lord of the Rings world. Or CS Lewis writing the Chronicles of Narnia. These books are what I think of as cross-over titles between child and adult, and they took years of dedication and commitment to write.


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## Jeko (Dec 15, 2013)

> I'm not sure we're doing kids any favors.



I have no trouble with decently-written commercial fiction; it's comparable to formulaic TV detective shows or watching Merlin or modern-day Doctor Who. The celebration (and continual publication) of poorly-written stories is, however, both insulting to a potentially strong genre and the writers who do and do not write into it, the latter of which may be trying to get published and find that, regardless of their storytelling talents, their work doesn't conform; they should have spent there time learning 'the art of the cliche' rather than try to be half-decent or even experimental in what they do.

The genre, as a whole, isn't as bad as you make out. Trying to judge all literature with the same rule is like comparing Brahms to Bruno Mars; they both serve their purpose, Brahms having a much higher purpose, though Bruno Mars' music isn't as off-putting as some other artists, and he can actually sing (a rarity). YA fiction is weighed down by a lot of poor choices, which _has _dumbed down a marked already dumbed down by repetitive pop music, slavery to TV and continual, noneducational use of the internet. 

As I'm sure I've read more of the genre than you have, and been part of its target market, I can safely say that the genre is not, by definition or analysis, unrealistic and fantastic. It may seem unrealistic at times to a more developed mind, but the mind of a teenager hasn't reached that stage yet, and so they see things through a different lens. YA is catered towards this lens, so the work of John Green, for example, would be very realistic to a teenager like myself.

For another reference point, look at how books are written for little children. The world wants teenagers to think that they're at the prime time of their lives, but the younger generation is is inferior to the older in terms of their basic understanding of the world. So YA books often speak to them on the same level - this can make them look badly written, but could you say that The Very Hungry Caterpillar was badly written? Simply written, maybe, but not badly.

I also agree with Gargh that there isn't enough personal value put into most YA books to reward the reader sufficiently.


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 15, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> And frankly, when you address someone who is in his sixties, I'd advise you to ponder that I have forgotten more than you have ever learned.  As I told a member this morning in a PM, I don't need or care for permission to think and comment on any facet of the human experience.  Or as we graybeards state, _"Been there, done that, invented half of it."_



Being old doesn't make you right.  We've all got opinions.  What makes us right are facts.  What proves facts is evidence.  

In every generation, cheap stories for kids are written (for ex. when you were young, Jonathon Seagull was popular).  In every generation, some really good books are written.  In every generation, kids read both popular crap and the classics.

As for railing against fantasy, that criticism is just ignorant.  Even novels which have no magic or super tech are novels which take place in imagined environments, not reality.


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## The Tourist (Dec 15, 2013)

Justin Rocket said:


> Being old doesn't make you right.  We've all got opinions.  What makes us right are facts.



Agreed.  However, just the experience of living three times longer than today's youth has shown me every dirty trick, governmental abuse, "soft" falsehood and worthless campaign promise several times over.

After you see a shell game hundreds of times it finally all dawns on you.  You can almost smell deceit.

Today's YA fiction is of poor quality.  THG is more of a fluke than an example.  The genre is rife with simplistic variations of past works, and all the buzzwords, current fashion and youthful passion ain't gonna put silk panties on a pig.

The work needs to improve.


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## Gavrushka (Dec 15, 2013)

I think fiction in general took a huge nosedive with the advent of self-publication - The 'average' quality had to suffer when anyone with computer access and a word processor could vomit on the unsuspecting public. - The important thing to note is that this did not reduce the ability of any author, it just meant there was no minimum standard to attain before a book could hit the electronic shelves - Finding a good read is far harder as you have to sift through so much bumslop before you can find something worth keeping.


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 15, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Agreed.  However, just the experience of living three times longer than today's youth has shown me every dirty trick, governmental abuse, "soft" falsehood and worthless campaign promise several times over.
> 
> After you see a shell game hundreds of times it finally all dawns on you.  You can almost smell deceit.
> 
> ...



You're being very vague about what you're criticizing, just suggesting that it is something "new".  An example of specific criticism is as follows..  When I was in the target market, many decades ago, I read _The Three Investigators_ series.  One of the books was _The Mystery of the Stuttering Parrot. _ Critical to the mystery involved was a parrot who kept stuttering "Two..Two..Two..B".  The book claimed that this was part of Sherlock Holmes' address (which is wrong, Holmes' address was 221B Baker Street).


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## The Tourist (Dec 15, 2013)

Justin Rocket said:


> You're being very vague about what you're criticizing.



Actually, I'm not.  The entire genre needs work.  The prose is either bland unto tears or so hopelessly lost in childish passion and angst it's unreadable.

Here's your challenge.  Give me a paragraph--a singular example--of something from a YA novel that demonstrates a crafted plot, or captivating description without be cloying.  I dare you.


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 15, 2013)

A paragraph that demonstrates plot?
As for non-cloying description, how about the description of Theo's flight in the opening of _A Darkling Plain_?

You still haven't given a list of recently published novels you like.


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## The Tourist (Dec 15, 2013)

It's a valid question.  There seems to be lots of energy expended trying to justify the mediocre.  Strangely, in trying to encourage improvement, the concept of "better" becomes a dirty word.

If something in YA exists that is worthy of mention, then post it.  If not, work to improve it.


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 15, 2013)

My question to you is valid, too.  Provide a list of recently published YA lit you like.
As for answering your question, I referenced a non-cloying description in a YA novel. Plot is something that is unravelled over an entire book, not a single chapter.  You didn't paint all of YA lit recently published without having first read enough to  draw your conclusion did you?  You haven't read _The Boy in the Striped Pajamas. _ But, surely, you've read _A Darkling Plain_ (winner of both the Guardian Children's Fiction Prize and the Los Angeles Times Book Prize for Young Adult Fiction)?  Your exposure to YA lit seems awfully trivial.


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## tatygirl90 (Dec 15, 2013)

I used to be so much that I stopped reading it for a long time. But I'm trying out contemporary right not instead of the fantasy and I'm really enjoying it. I'm reading the Summer series by Jenny Han.


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## The Tourist (Dec 15, 2013)

Justin Rocket said:


> My question to you is valid, too.  Provide a list of recently published YA lit you like.



I don't like any of it--and trust me, I tried to "beta" one for a woman in Canada.  To me the entire genre is a hard-cover comic book.


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 15, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> To me the entire genre is a hard-cover comic book.



I don't know what your comment about comic books is supposed to mean unless you're complaining about the books being fun to read and having a lot of action.

There's been some really amazing comic books published.  V for Vendetta, Astro City (full disclosure, my cousin lettered the entire series), Maus, etc. are all worthy reading.


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## The Tourist (Dec 15, 2013)

I meant it more to be sarcastic than taking a shot at traditional comic books.  I was a real Hal Jordan/GL fan, some of the best anatomical art going for the times.  I learned that when I went to art classes at the UW Madison in the late 1960s.

Perhaps "a hard cover comic strip" might be more accurate.

BTW, I meant my stint as a beta sincerely.  The woman in question had helped me with my book, and I felt I owed her in return.  She admitted up front that YA was the gig of the moment, and she took to the task doing her best work.

However, it was a formula YA, "strong female" action/adventure, lots of hair and make-up, and stuff like a forty foot jump off a balcony with the lead's stellar athletic ability.  She approached weaponry with the same passion as I would describe a Home Depot bargain bin doorknob. 

All in all, it was a good, solid traditional YA novel.  But to me that's like saying, _"Not too scratchy for coarse woolen underwear."_  All the components, but faint praise, because at the end of the day, it was traditional YA.


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 15, 2013)

But you've not read any but a tiny fraction of what's being published in YA today.  That's certainly not enough to condemn all new YA lit.


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## The Tourist (Dec 15, 2013)

Justin Rocket said:


> But you've not read any but a tiny fraction of what's being published in YA today.  That's certainly not enough to condemn all new YA lit.



I haven't ridden every wheezy Suzuki two-stroke motorcycle either, but if there's that much differentiation in YA then it's not a genre, is it?

Personally, I dislike being pigeon-holed.  I've never been to California, but I built a San Francisco custom because it's a superior design.  My book is "semi-autobiographical, science fiction, action-adventure, religious pornography" replete with an M. Night Shyamalan twist.

I even have the cover designed and the theater poster "teaser line" drafted.  But no pigeon holes.


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 15, 2013)

> if there's that much differentiation in YA then it's not a genre, is it?



YA isn't a genre.  It is a target demographic.  YA fantasy, YA romance, YA science fiction, etc. all exist.  That's why I've been referring to 'YA lit' instead of 'the YA genre'.

The best artists understand that their work is useless if people aren't exposed to it. To get published in a big way, your work gets pigeon holed by publishers and book stores.  That's a good thing since it increases exposure by readers to your artistic vision.

Part of the work of art (including creative writing) is figuring out how to communicate your vision in a way that people will hear it.


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## The Tourist (Dec 15, 2013)

Justin Rocket said:


> The best artists understand that their work is useless if people aren't exposed to it. To get published in a big way, your work gets pigeon holed by publishers and book stores.  That's a good thing since it increases exposure by readers to your artistic vision.



And I'm glad that's happening.  But I feel the topic here has taken a "blame the victim" perspective.

If YA was an automobile line that scattered engines, leaked oil or crumpled so easily it killed folks, we wouldn't point a finger and say, _"Well, not everyone dies in that car..."_

I would offer that YA is like a new western cattle town.  Lots of rough edges, and most of it smells.  Towns like that became Denver and San Francisco, so there's hope for this genre, as well.

It's not the readers' fault the stuff leaves us wanting.  But the answer is not to overlook something substandard, whitewash the flaws and the intimidate people to read it anyway.  The best future is in improvement.  I'm not aware of a movement of that kind, nor am I aware of a break-out example.

If there was one, wouldn't it be mentioned here?


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 15, 2013)

You compare YA to an automobile model coming off a line.  There's far more diversity between YA titles than between 2013 Mazda3s.

You've read a very small percentage of recent YA novels.  What you're doing is no different than if I labelled all cars as gas guzzlers because my 1973 Pontiac Grand Am is.


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## The Tourist (Dec 15, 2013)

You may have the last word, I've stated my position.  It's late, I have the gym tomorrow.  My final shot, preach "improvement."  It's the only concept that has ever fixed anything...


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 15, 2013)

Of course fixing problems that don't exist takes resources away from fixing problems that do.  That's one of the reasons painting anything with a broad brush is an error.


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## Terry D (Dec 16, 2013)

At any given time the largest percentage of books published in any genre--including 'mainstream', or 'literary fiction'--are nothing more than derivative knock-offs of something which has sold well. It has always been that way and, as long as publishing is a business, it always will be. That doesn't mean it's all junk, it just means there are authors willing to provide a supply for the demand. Finding the "good stuff" takes sorting through a ton of junk. It's like panning for gold; you move a lot of sand before you find the occasional nugget. Really good books, in any genre, don't come along very often, but they are there--and they get copied _ad infinitum_. If someone doesn't like it, they have the option of not reading it, but it doesn't make the whole genre bad. In fact, in my opinion, anything that gets young people reading books (and keeps markets open for writers) is a very good thing.

YA, as a distinct genre, did not exist when I was in that age group, but there were still a ton of youth oriented books. I loved the_ Doc Savage _series, which wasn't originally written for kids, but became very popular with teens. Those weren't great works of literature, but they fed my love of reading and taught me a lot about creating a story. A love which also helped me find _The Lord of the Flies_, _The Diary of Anne Frank_ (talk about a strong female lead!), _Something Wicked This Way Comes_, and dozens of other youth oriented books which are great writing. Good YA is out there right now; _The Book Thief_, _The Perks of Being a Wallflower_, _Looking for Alaska_ (or about anything else by John Green), and Rowlings'_ Harry Potter_ series. The nuggets are buried under the sand and silt.

Those who have a bug up their butt about any given genre will always try to paint everything with the same, broad brush. As a reader and writer of horror fiction I've seen it for decades, and yet great horror is still being written. Probably the most denigrated of genres (with the possible exception of erotica) is historical romance. While the shelves seem full of bodice ripping dross, you can still find excellent writing and innovative storytelling in books like the _Outlander_ series by Diana Gabeldon. Westerns, mysteries, science fiction, all have their naysayers and those who lament the entire genre; and, all have their share of derivative writing and copied plots. All also have their classics and transcendent works.

YA is alive and well. It's just suffering from its own success at the moment. If all those _Twilight _and _Hunger Games_ knock-offs are selling, then that tells me that people are reading. Some of them will move on to reading "quality" (whatever that means) literature, and some of them will stick with reading what they enjoy (and generating royalties for writers). That's okay. 

There is a reason that PBS isn't the only channel on our televisions.


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## Jeko (Dec 16, 2013)

> You've read a very small percentage of recent YA novels.



JR, I have read a larger percentage, and, echoing my previous comments, the 'genre' is in disrepair. I tend to refer to it as a coefficient rather than a genre though, in the way that 3x has a smaller coefficient than 6x, but 3x may be more useful for a particular task, if, say, x is eggs and you need three of them. In that mathematical sense, commercial YA is useful for young adults, but as far as literary value is concerned, that which is commercially written for an older market is likely to contain more worth.


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## spartan928 (Dec 16, 2013)

My kids were born and raised in the era Harry Potter books hit the market. That series alone had a huge impact on the interest in reading my kids developed as they grew up. The excitement in reading those books was like a ripple because they took an interest in reading all kinds of stuff after that. They're adults now and buy their own books so I'm well out of touch with the YA market these days. However, like any business that has profit as its motive (which is all of them), publishing is constantly on the lookout for the next breakout YA novel, whatever it may be. Sometimes the quality is good, sometimes not. But it has always been so hasn't it? Millions of kids and young aduts were greatly entertained by Twilight and THG. More power to them. I agree it's kind of discouraging seeing all the snot-nosed orphans of Ms. Big Thing cluttering the shelves of bookstores all the time. But again, that's business not art and is never going to change.


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## Morkonan (Dec 16, 2013)

Terry D said:


> ...YA is alive and well. It's just suffering from its own success at the moment. If all those _Twilight _and _Hunger Games_ knock-offs are selling, then that tells me that people are reading. Some of them will move on to reading "quality" (whatever that means) literature, and some of them will stick with reading what they enjoy (and generating royalties for writers). That's okay.
> 
> There is a reason that PBS isn't the only channel on our televisions.



^--- This.

When I was in the YA age group, I was reading Science Fiction and Fantasy books aimed at adults. But, when I was much younger, in my single-digit years, I was reading about Tom Corbett, Tarzan and reading plenty of short story anthologies. In my adolescence, I gravitated towards "easy reading" adult Science Fiction and Fantasy because there was a "hole" there in the genre market that made finding good books difficult for adolescents. It was hard for me to find adult titles that were appealing to my youthful imagination, so I was eventually exposed, by the necessity to feed my thinking organ, to titles like Lord of the Rings and Dune. Since then, it has been a great ride...

The YA Genre is probably the most radical and welcome improvement in commercial literature in recent times. Now we finally have a shelf that will automatically attract younger readers and help to introduce them to the joy of reading. Most of us forget that "finishing" a book is sometimes an achievement for younger readers and even inexperienced ones. How many people do you know that put down "finished reading a book" on their list of lifetime literary achievements? The number is probably quite higher than you think it is... Go ahead, ask around if you don't believe me. It's unfortunate and shocking, to be sure. But, part of the problem is that some of these people may not have had a market that would help to introduce them to recreational reading. The YA genre can do that. Unfortunately, it's overloaded with crap... That may not be such a bad thing. Michael Bay still makes movies, after all, and some of his movies might generate enough interest in a young viewer that they decide to become the next Spielberg, Hitchcock or even Trumbull or Harryhousen.

Eventually, the YA genre will "mature" a bit and some of the hacked out titles will succumb to the evolutionary process of Capitalism. (One hopes...) But, even if it doesn't, even if it's still full of garbage titles, the YA genre will still serve a laudable purpose. And, in the end, that's what we really care about, isn't it?


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## Leyline (Dec 17, 2013)

"Mainstream commercial fiction contains lots of lowest-common-denominator-dross" SHOCKER!

Since when was this not true of every genre ever? 'Adult' fiction is absolutely no better. The top and midlist is composed, for the most part, of attempts to cash in on whatever the last big seller happened to be. This is why turgid Tolkein-esque fantasy series took over speculative fiction for years, and later why military SF became the hot new thing. Publishing is a business looking first and foremost at the bottom. The bottom line. 

And here's the thing: this will continue to happen, because lots and lots of people actually _want_ 'something like that other thing but a bit different.' Lowest common denominator actually means it appeals to the largest segment, after all.

The problem being laid at the feet of YA fiction here is a problem that has existed in publishing since big publishing houses came to the forefront. Those trying to blame it on the explosion of self-publishing crack me up. If you want to make the imaginary case that the big houses somehow brought fine literature to the fore in the past hundred years, you're making a case based on sand at high tide. The buying of manuscripts has been based on best-seller lists since there were best-sellers. The fact that many self-publishers attempt to follow along just means they're following along.

Now, as ever, good work is being published in every genre and form of distribution. Now, as ever, you have to sift the wheat from the chaff.


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## The Tourist (Dec 17, 2013)

Here's an analogy that might make sense and not offend anyone.  I think YA is akin to the Toyota Prius, and let me explain.

If you say "green," the Prius is usually mentioned in the same sentence.  But instead of looking at it as the _cause célèbre_, look at it as an automobile.

For example, it's made of essentially the same materials as a Hummer, and it consumes manufacturing energy and manpower like any other mass produced device.  The facility where the large batteries are made has turned the adjoining land toxic.  While it does run on electricity, what people forget about "electric cars" is that most of the dynamos in the USA utilize coal to run.  And when that big battery comes to the end of it's life span, you are stuck with about 600 pounds of cadmium and mercury.

(BTW, at present there isn't much you can do with old Prius battery drive-line.  It takes 2,000 to 3,000 dollars to replace, and I do not know of any facility that recovers the materials.  So most of it will go into landfills or be stored in hardened quonset huts like we did with old stockpiles of nerve gas.)

As an automobile the Prius has the worst eco-footprint of any conveyance ever made.  Yet, the defenders of the car are so invested in the image that winning an argument is more important than toxicity. 

Now, I understand image (I ride one) and I know that anything new and innovative is rough around the edges.  But that's not how we judge YA, some defend it like a sainted aunt.  There are serious problems with it, and about all the defenders can say is _"Hey, THG made money."_  That's not enough.

Right now it's "emerging raw material."  It will change, die or become an anachronism.  Realization hurts when your ideals are tarnished.  But if this genre is to sustain, don't view it as a Prius, but as The Six Million Dollar Man.

_"We can rebuild it, make it better than it was..."_


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## Terry D (Dec 17, 2013)

YA is no more broken than any other genre. It's not "emerging". Stories geared toward young people have existed since the dawn of storytelling and will outlast all of us.


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## Jeko (Dec 17, 2013)

> YA is no more broken than any other genre.



I would disagree, _purely_ because of what is put on the shelves, in terms of literary quality. I find there's a lot of crossover between YA and children's, and between YA and adult, neither of which help the type establish its own dominance aside from its success in marketing.


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## Terry D (Dec 17, 2013)

Cadence said:


> I would disagree, _purely_ because of what is put on the shelves, in terms of literary quality. I find there's a lot of crossover between YA and children's, and between YA and adult, neither of which help the type establish its own dominance aside from its success in marketing.



That's the point, there is a lot of bad, unoriginal writing in every genre, so, in that, YA is no different. Of course there will be bleed-through between age groups as you approach each end of the YA spectrum. Trying to separate children's from Young Adult from Adult is like trying to decide when gray becomes black. "Literary quality" is entirely subjective and even if you can define it, it is very hard to find. That's no different for YA than for any other type of fiction.


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## Jeko (Dec 17, 2013)

> That's the point, there is a lot of bad, unoriginal writing in every genre, so, in that, YA is no different. Of course there will be bleed-through between age groups as you approach each end of the YA spectrum. Trying to separate children's from Young Adult from Adult is like trying to decide when gray becomes black. "Literary quality" is entirely subjective and even if you can define it, it is very hard to find. That's no different for YA than for any other type of fiction.



From what I've read, standards are lower for YA than they are for both adult and children's literature as far as what is _celebrated _is concerned. Trying to evaluate the whole of each market is impossible, but looking at what is commercially successful in each type makes, for me, YA weaker in comparison. Maybe only slightly, but I still find it immediately noticeable.


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 17, 2013)

I'm okay with somebody saying that they dislike a lot of YA lit.  But, I stand fast against the statement that all YA lit is bad.  It was just a few years ago that JK Rowling was writing Harry Potter.  Beside that, there's a lot of good YA lit such as The Golden Compass, The Boy in the Striped Pajamas, etc.

I greatly dislike Percy Jackson, Twilight, etc., but that's no reason to say that all of YA lit is bad.

Having said that, it is my professional goal to make reading as cool as I possibly can make it for YA males.  The writing style I'm striving to create is very fast paced and full of action (sword fights, swinging from clothes lines, racing against monsters, etc.), but with some serious philosophical conundrums (such as 'what is the limit of morality?' and 'what does it mean to be honorable?') sneaking in between the lines.  I hope my work causes fan boys to argue vehemently over the characters and, indirectly, cause those same fan boys to question their own cultural beliefs.


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## The Tourist (Dec 17, 2013)

Terry D said:


> YA is no more broken than any other genre. It's not "emerging". Stories geared toward young people have existed since the dawn of storytelling and will outlast all of us.



Yeah, in the guise of Nancy Drew and The Hardy Boys.  Certainly not children killing children and idea of creating dystopian as a home business.  Heck, when "Mad Max" first came out numerous critics panned it as _"the future ain't what it used to be."_  Now it's almost a cartoon.

If "emerging" bothers you as a definition, then "rudderless" indeed applies.  And until we throw cold water on the egos who refuse to believe that +90% is truly substandard, then there won't be any improvement, at all.

In fact, if the movement believes that anything with a strong female lead and a pirated plot sells, it will be a race to the bottom.


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## Terry D (Dec 17, 2013)

To the bottom of what? When people get tired of reading those plot lines sales will go down and publishers will stop buying those manuscripts. In the mean time I'm not willing to tell people what they should be reading, or what they should want to read. In the mean time there is good fiction out there for young adults which doesn't fit the "strong female lead and a pirated plot" stereotype (I'm also curious as to what is wrong with a strong female lead?). I mentioned several current books in one of my posts above and there are many more, so condemning the entire genre based on a bias against one sub-genre seems short sighted.

BTW: What was _Lord of the Flies_ if not children killing children?


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 17, 2013)

Terry D said:


> To the bottom of what? When people get tired of reading those plot lines sales will go down and publishers will stop buying those manuscripts. In the mean time I'm not willing to tell people what they should be reading, or what they should want to read. In the mean time there is good fiction out there for young adults which doesn't fit the "strong female lead and a pirated plot" stereotype (I'm also curious as to what is wrong with a strong female lead?). I mentioned several current books in one of my posts above and there are many more, so condemning the entire genre based on a bias against one sub-genre seems short sighted.
> 
> BTW: What was _Lord of the Flies_ if not children killing children?




+1

It takes as much ego to cry that 90+% is broken as it does to cry that 90+% isn't broken.  Actually, it probably is more common to cry that 90+% is broken.  Whenever someone tries to do anything, there's always people on the sidelines ready to toss a rotten tomato.  

Bottom Line, if you think you can do better, then do better.  Write a book which appeals to what you think of as high literary quality AND is madly popular.


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## The Tourist (Dec 17, 2013)

Terry D, I think the public is already getting tired of the genre.

This past Sunday's "Parade" insert used the quote "Enough already with Middle-Earth."  I found that strange, considering people used to sleep outside for tickets to LOTR movies.  Our theaters were half empty.

Considering we're a college town, I haven't seen, heard or read a single world about "Catching Fire" other than the initial announcement.

The bargain bin/pile at our B&N is full of things like conspiracy theory works, but also anything with a samurai sword or an angel.

Five years ago even adults were wearing Iron Man masks...

Race to the bottom?  Perhaps this is the bottom already.  But again, why try to defend mediocrity?


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 17, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Terry D, I think the public is already getting tired of the genre.
> 
> This past Sunday's "Parade" insert used the quote "Enough already with Middle-Earth."  I found that strange, considering people used to sleep outside for tickets to LOTR movies.  Our theaters were half empty.
> 
> ...



There are A LOT of people who disagree with you.  The Avengers movie was a huge financial success.  But, if you think you can do better, by all means, please do so.  At worse, your work will end up in one of those bargain bins.  At best, you'll receive a huge financial success and convince a bunch of fan boys that you set the standard for quality.

The fact that someone can criticize other peoples' work does not mean that the criticizer has a clue what he's talking about.


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## bookmasta (Dec 17, 2013)

Well, I guess people are disappointed by YA these days as I am.


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## Terry D (Dec 17, 2013)

I don't see where anyone is defending mediocrity. I certainly am not. I'm just pointing out that the whole genre,  or even 90% of it, should not be lumped mindlessly into the same catagory as the drivel some choose to point out. But we are beating a dead horse here. So I'll leave it to those who are interested in YA fiction to either take the time to find the good stuff (just as SF fans, and mystery fans, and horror fans have to look for the best quality work), or entertain themselves by complaining. I've heard it all before, about comic books, about music, about every genre of fiction, and about movies and TV; "This new __________ is junk. The whole industry is going to Hell." It's never been true before... except maybe that time about typewriter ribbons... and it's not true now.


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## Gargh (Dec 18, 2013)

bookmasta said:


> Well, I guess people are disappointed by YA these days as I am.



Disappointed is such a mild word


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## Foxee (Dec 18, 2013)

I have no idea how recent the idea of 'YA' is, I only remember reading books. Maybe the local library didn't have a YA section when I was in that age group or maybe I was blissfully ignorant of whether I was in that section or out of it. I looked for stories that really grabbed me from the first page and, if I flipped through a bit, looked intriguing all the way through. Most of the stuff that I've seen on the YA shelves so far wouldn't have passed my initial 'am I interested' tests when I was the right age for them.

Then again, I've been assured that I am weird.


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## Sjonak (Dec 29, 2013)

Those who would currently be considered young adults would be of the generation which has spent a significant portion of their life being fascinated by Social Media and cartoons for adults. So, I'd expect the genre's books would be hollowed out for an ADD pill bottle.

But in all seriousness, I like that the genre is relatively successful when it comes to getting its targeted demographic to read. Reading is beneficial, regardless of the subject.


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## Aello (Dec 30, 2013)

YA has always been filled with werewolves and vampires. I read several vampire books from the library as a teen before I'd even heard of Twilight. Amelia Atwater Rhodes wrote quite a few books about them, and I can remember a couple of other series besides, including one very similar to Twilight yet about a bitchy popular girl and a hot vampire in high school instead of a plain girl and a hot vampire (I think this one existed before Twilight did, even). There was also a looong series about a Wiccan girl who was very plain yet attracted two boyfriends over its course. These themes have been around awhile and they're not going anywhere. 

I haven't looked too much into YA lately, but if the Hunger Games is any indication I'm sure there's still quality stuff right alongside the typical fare. You just have to dig for it.


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## Tiberius (Dec 31, 2013)

bookmasta said:


> I was at Barnes and Noble the other day in search of some new books to read. Being nineteen and on the older end of the young adult genre, I made the mistake of looking under the mentioned section. The results were disappointing. Every single book, aside from The Hunger Games and Harry Potter Series, (and I'm not exaggerating) had to with werewolves, vampires, or some other supernatural force accompanied by an end of days plotline. Six shelves and a lot disappointment later, I gave up and settled on looking under Steven King where I found The Green Mile and a few other interesting reads. But still, are all these authors following the crazed obsession between werewolves and vampires that proceeded the Twilight Series in an attempt to get in on it, or is this actually what the younger generation is into? (Which scares me) Or am I missing something else completely? I didn't mean to go on a rant, it was just something that I came across and made me think why?



Try a book called Looking for Alibrandi by Melina Marchetta.  It's an older book, from the 90s, but it's a damn good one.  Not a single werewolf or vampire in sight.  If you have a google account you can buy it in Google Play here: https://play.google.com/store/books/details/Melina_Marchetta_Looking_for_Alibrandi?id=s2O0j5rDovUC


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