# Do your characters ever take control? (*WARNING - ADULT THEME*)



## Taylor (Mar 14, 2021)

I guess I should explain my question.  I was writing a chapter that I had pre-decided needed to be a married couple having an argument over an expensive renovation.  He had agreed to look at samples when he came home from work.  She had laid everything out on the kitchen island for him to see.  He was then supposed to get annoyed at the amount of money they were spending and she was supposed to get defensive.  This was to play into my plot and characterization.  

However, they are very much in love, and extremely physically attracted to each other.  When he got home, Instead of discussing the reno, he poured them each a cold glass of chardonnay.  After making out at the kitchen island, they drop to the Persian carpet on the floor and get it on.  Getting up afterward to find clothes flung all around the room they get dressed and have dinner.  The argument never takes place.  End of chapter.

It felt like they were writing themselves.

Afterward, I realized that I am so engrossed in this story that when I put myself into a character’s head and think of what they would do in this circumstance, there is usually only one clear path.  And in this case, the second scene actually plays into the plot and character motivations even better than my first idea.  

Hence my question, do your characters ever take control?    

(Examples if you please)


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## SueC (Mar 14, 2021)

Taylor said:


> I guess I should explain my question.  I was writing a chapter that I had pre-decided needed to be a married couple having an argument over an expensive renovation.  He had agreed to look at samples when he came home from work.  She had laid everything out on the kitchen island for him to see.  He was then supposed to get annoyed at the amount of money they were spending and she was supposed to get defensive.  This was to play into my plot and characterization.
> 
> However, they are very much in love, and extremely physically attracted to each other.  When he got home, Instead of discussing the reno, he poured them each a cold glass of chardonnay.  After making out at the kitchen island, they drop to the Persian carpet on the floor and get it on.  Getting up afterward to find clothes flung all around the room they get dressed and have dinner.  The argument never takes place.  End of chapter.
> 
> ...



Hi Taylor,
I struggle with this, but with a different emotion I guess you could say. The closest I can come to this, for an example, is with the first book I wrote. I worked really hard on this bad character - he was an alcoholic who abused his wife and children - and I was doing okay until one day I realized that the only character in my book who had no voice was this bad guy. So, at first I injected a little back story as to why he grew to be the man he was, but he just took over then and ultimately became an extremely compelling person by the end of the story! My great weakness in writing is bad guys, and believe me when I tell you that people have asked my why I felt compelled to make him softer, in a way, or I guess you could say more sympathetic. I can't very well say that he made me do it! LOL. But in truth, I think when it comes to things like this, we inject more of our own personality than a made up one.

 Maybe, in your story, you (personally) would prefer to be intimate with someone you care for, rather than quarrel over issues like money, and you inject that personality into your story.

One of my core beliefs is that, if a person is bad, there is a reason for it. The character in my book had an abusive father who was terribly mean to his son and I couldn't complete the book without including that information, or maybe he did it for me. Even though, from a marketing standpoint, I probably should have let him stand on his own and suffer the consequences of being a rotten guy, I just let him tell me otherwise. It's like I know that men or women who behave badly, drink, hurt others - they don't really want to be like that. They want to be loved and cared for like everyone else. They are just damaged.

Yikes - sounds a little sappy. But yes, I know what you are experiencing! 

Sue


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## EternalGreen (Mar 14, 2021)

In your story, it sounds like the conflict is getting buried to simmer. This can if it pops up again and is even more significant.

I’m writing a chapter where one character begins measuring another for a dress which will be presented to her as a gift. The scene may or may not turn into . . . something else.

The characters were intended to wait until the dress was finished and set up a “whole thing,” but they just . . .  could not wait. I'm hoping I don't mess up this scene.

Not only does this feel more authentic, it also helps the plot along. If the chemistry prevents them from being careful . . . bad things might happen.


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## Deleted member 65569 (Mar 14, 2021)

If you let the characters write, the story will be different than you want. My first story ended very differently than I thought. There were so many characters and I was very kind to all of them. I even spoiled them. As a result, all I did while writing the book was to fix the logic mistakes between the characters' stories.


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## Taylor (Mar 14, 2021)

SueC said:


> Hi Taylor,
> 
> Maybe, in your story, you (personally) would prefer to be intimate with someone you care for, rather than quarrel over issues like money, and you inject that personality into your story.



I'm glad you pointed this out. I have worried, as you say, that I am making my world a place I would want to be, so I am wary that I am not portraying enough conflict. I still have about 30,000 words left, so there is still time. But in my story, the bad guys are basically good people who cross the line legally and morally, but only with respect to money, so I don't have to wander into the sensitive areas of physical or mental abuse. Like you, I would find that very difficult to write.

So far with my couple, there is a problem lurking under the surface. But realistically, there are many people out there who don't realize they are in peril. I don't want to give away my plot because I hope you read my book, but to give you an example of the underlying conflict they are facing, it is something like the subprime mortgage crisis. Many people acted unethically, and the situation bubbled under the surface for a long time. People and society did not even realize how unstable things were until it all crashed down. It will, however, be important that there are significant consequences for my bad guys.  

But this scene with my married couple works for now, because money and power, no matter how it was derived can be a form of an aphrodisiac for some. So I will make that play out for a while.

I like that with your bad guy you provided a back story. There are a lot of stories about abusive bad guys. People like to believe that certain characteristics, like physical abuse, should have zero-tolerance or justification, and rightly so, so it's a tricky area, because we don't want to think about any other reality.  I'm sure people who work with the mentally ill could tell us a lot of stories like you wrote.  Although not the typical marketable black and white story, your's has more depth and is more realistic. And at the end of the day, we have to be true to ourselves, if we want to write with heart.


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## Taylor (Mar 14, 2021)

EternalGreen said:


> In your story, it sounds like the conflict is getting buried to simmer. This can if it pops up again and is even more significant.



Yes...that is my plan for now.  As long as I can get control of these two...lol!  



EternalGreen said:


> I’m writing a chapter where one character begins measuring another for a dress which will be presented to her as a gift. The scene may or may not turn into . . . something else.
> 
> The characters were intended to wait until the dress was finished and set up a “whole thing,” but they just . . .  could not wait. I'm hoping I don't mess up this scene.
> 
> Not only does this feel more authentic, it also helps the plot along. If the chemistry prevents them from being careful . . . bad things might happen.



Or very good things?


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## EternalGreen (Mar 14, 2021)

Exceedingly good things, which were highly frowned upon by society at that time.


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## Taylor (Mar 14, 2021)

acatchynick said:


> If you let the characters write, the story will be different than you want. My first story ended very differently than I thought. There were so many characters and I was very kind to all of them. I even spoiled them. As a result, all I did while writing the book was to fix the logic mistakes between the characters' stories.



I love that you describe it as "spoiled them"...lol!  It can be a good thing though.  I mean, we read for an escape no?

EDIT: It makes them seem so alive.


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## Taylor (Mar 14, 2021)

EternalGreen said:


> Exceedingly good things, which were highly frowned upon by society at that time.



Ah...now I understand your diction.


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## ironpony (Mar 14, 2021)

I struggle with this as well. Sometimes my characters taking control is for the better, but other times when they do it, it goes against the theme you are intending.  In that case, you may have to alter the characters, so they will make decisions that will fit the theme I find.


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## indianroads (Mar 14, 2021)

Taylor said:


> I guess I should explain my question.  I was writing a chapter that I had pre-decided needed to be a married couple having an argument over an expensive renovation.  He had agreed to look at samples when he came home from work.  She had laid everything out on the kitchen island for him to see.  He was then supposed to get annoyed at the amount of money they were spending and she was supposed to get defensive.  This was to play into my plot and characterization.
> 
> However, they are very much in love, and extremely physically attracted to each other.  When he got home, Instead of discussing the reno, he poured them each a cold glass of chardonnay.  After making out at the kitchen island, they drop to the Persian carpet on the floor and get it on.  Getting up afterward to find clothes flung all around the room they get dressed and have dinner.  The argument never takes place.  End of chapter.
> 
> ...



In the novel 'Breakfast of Champions' Kurt Vonnegut (the author)  actually injects himself in to the story - and is surprised that he's  there. At one point, he's in a bar and the barman is about to ask him a  question he doesn't want to answer, so he makes the phone ring to avoid  the question. His comment when this happens is something similar to: _People  think that authors control their characters via steel bars attached to  them, but it's actually more like old worn out rubber-bands_. 

Isn't it part of the joy of writing when a character takes on a life their own?


SueC said:


> Hi Taylor,
> I struggle with this, but with a different emotion I guess you could say. The closest I can come to this, for an example, is with the first book I wrote. I worked really hard on this bad character - he was an alcoholic who abused his wife and children - and I was doing okay until one day I realized that the only character in my book who had no voice was this bad guy. So, at first I injected a little back story as to why he grew to be the man he was, but he just took over then and ultimately became an extremely compelling person by the end of the story! *My great weakness in writing is bad guys*, and believe me when I tell you that people have asked my why I felt compelled to make him softer, in a way, or I guess you could say more sympathetic. I can't very well say that he made me do it! LOL. But in truth, I think when it comes to things like this, we inject more of our own personality than a made up one.
> 
> Maybe, in your story, you (personally) would prefer to be intimate with someone you care for, rather than quarrel over issues like money, and you inject that personality into your story.
> ...



I really like writing the bad guys & gals. They tend to have more texture and are therefore compelling. That said though, What is bad and good? Every villain outside of cartoons has depth and reasons for what they do. Villains are simply characters with goals (that are good in their mind) that are contrary to what you main character desires. Everyone is the hero in their own story.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 14, 2021)

When I'm in full flow, yes, when I'm not, it's like moving them forward one painful choice at a time.


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## JBF (Mar 14, 2021)

On occasion.  Usually this is a result of the sort of dramatic stuff that looks good in the outline but ultimately runs counter to the nature of the characters involved.  

Two incidences: 

In Book II, I had plans for an exchange for two characters who'd been at odds the better part of fifteen years.  There was some violence in their past dealings, always one-sided, and this was supposed to demonstrate that the protag (who wound up taking the beatings) could stand his ground without things sliding sideways into an out-and-out brawl.  As plotted, it was a scene of unspoken threats and high tension that ended with his listening to his erstwhile better angels and walking away.  

Well...funny story.  Evidently when you keep somebody in a pressure cooker for fifteen of their twenty-odd years, and they recently returned from eighteen months in a foreign country while angry people with automatic weaponry were trying to kill them, and they bounce 50/50 between an opioid painkiller haze and withdrawals thereof, and you put them in close proximity to their chief antagonist out of the line-of-sight of respectable society...sometimes those better angels don't show up.  

Weird part is, the bloodletting that resulted actually wound up fitting better into the character arc.  Go figure.  

The second is Book III.  Same protagonist, back in the same foreign country, albeit in a different capacity than his first visit.  He meets a woman and, to the considerable surprise of of both parties, they _get _each other...until he figures out she's been lying to him.  Their next meeting was slated to be a fire-and-thunder exchange.  Real sink the knife and twist it kind of thing.  

Just a few problems.  One, she's highly conflict avoidant, and he knows that if it turns into a shouting match she'll just sull and close off and that'll be the end of it.  Two, as much as it stings, the rationale behind the lie makes sense to him.  And three, this is the same character who spent most of Book II careening from one near-disaster to the next, including the beatdown that wasn't supposed to happen.  Somewhere in there he figures out that he _might _have something of a temper and that unless he gets a handle on it there's a good chance it'll kill him.  

So they defuse it and go on.  It lacks the drama I'd originally envisioned, but it's more in line with the two characters and the personalities that made them work in the first place.  Plus, it demonstrates something of the protag we haven't seen before.  

So there's that.


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## Taylor (Mar 15, 2021)

ironpony said:


> I struggle with this as well. Sometimes my characters taking control is for the better, but other times when they do it, it goes against the theme you are intending.  In that case, you may have to alter the characters, so they will make decisions that will fit the theme I find.



Yes, I am just discovering this, that there can be a disparity between what seems natural to the characters and what they need to do to fulfill the theme.  At some point I may have to take force the original intent of the characters.  But I still wonder why there is this disparity.  Have there been times when you have altered a character and then regretted it afterwards?


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## Taylor (Mar 15, 2021)

indianroads said:


> In the novel 'Breakfast of Champions' Kurt Vonnegut (the author)  actually injects himself in to the story - and is surprised that he's  there. At one point, he's in a bar and the barman is about to ask him a  question he doesn't want to answer, so he makes the phone ring to avoid  the question. His comment when this happens is something similar to: _People  think that authors control their characters via steel bars attached to  them, but it's actually more like old worn out rubber-bands_.
> 
> Isn't it part of the joy of writing when a character takes on a life their own?



Yes!  But as a novice, experiencing this for the first time, I wasn't prepared for it.   Now I just need to figure out how to manage the situation.  It is comforting that others struggle as well.  That's why WF is so useful to get feedback...so we know the things we experience with writing are normal.  

But it is becoming more clear to me that writing fiction is a very powerful thing.  We tap into our own subconscious for inspiration and content, and then we think we have the power as the author to tell the story...but maybe we have less power than we think.


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## Taylor (Mar 15, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> When I'm in full flow, yes, when I'm not, it's like moving them forward one painful choice at a time.



I haven't yet experienced the painful choices yet, but I'm sure I will.  I wonder if there will be a time when the characters simply won't cooperate.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 15, 2021)

Taylor said:


> I haven't yet experienced the painful choices yet, but I'm sure I will.  I wonder if there will be a time when the characters simply won't cooperate.



I'm experiencing it now. I don't know why but I'm not getting that cinema screen in my head as usual and it's disconcerting.
I haven't got a clue what happened. My favourite style was MotherHUD and then I tried to write a children's detective story with humour, and lost my way. Now I can't even get back to the MotherHUD style. I can't put my head back there even after reading it several times. There was something I did in those early sections that had me excited and I can't find it again.


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## Taylor (Mar 15, 2021)

JBF said:


> On occasion.  Usually this is a result of the sort of dramatic stuff that looks good in the outline but ultimately runs counter to the nature of the characters involved.
> 
> Two incidences:
> 
> ...



This temper issue is interesting.  It sounds like the protagonist fell in love, and that desire controls his temper. A key development of your character...that was driven by the character himself.  I would think an important theme in your story.  One that the reader can relate to and grow by.  But did you only discover this twist as you were writing it?


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## Taylor (Mar 15, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> I'm experiencing it now. I don't know why but I'm not getting that cinema screen in my head as usual and it's disconcerting.
> I haven't got a clue what happened. My favourite style was MotherHUD and then I tried to write a children's detective story with humour, and lost my way. Now I can't even get back to the MotherHUD style. I can't put my head back there even after reading it several times. There was something I did in those early sections that had me excited and I can't find it again.



Maybe just start with some characters. Set out a background and profile and then, let them guide you.  Don't worry about the style...just see where they take you....


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 15, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Maybe just start with some characters. Set out a background and profile and then, let them guide you.  Don't worry about the style...just see where they take you....



That is exactly what I'm doing. I've decided to write and not use the protag's head space to guide me. It's just unravelling. I've planned the next few scenes and know where it's going but can't find the bridges between scenes. It's like I'm detached from everything I'm writing.

I should have just gone straight into the next story using the MothrHUD voice, removed the overly extravagant descriptions and heavy use of adjectives. That voice was my favourite.


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## JBF (Mar 15, 2021)

Taylor said:


> This temper issue is interesting.  It sounds like the protagonist fell in love, and that desire controls his temper. A key development of your character...that was driven by the character himself.  I would think an important theme in your story.  One that the reader can relate to and grow by.  But did you only discover this twist as you were writing it?



Really what happened was the stuff that I'd hammered out in the planning and plotting stages influenced showed up and did what it was supposed to do.  As it happened, it dovetailed pretty cleanly with my expectations for the character at that point.  

You see the temper in flickers and flares all through the character progression.  What happens in Book II is one of the few times he goes completely gloves-off with it, and though it's arguably justified (to him, anyway) there's the lingering sense of having figuratively killed one devil and opened the door for a new one.  

Swapping the two scenes made more sense in the big picture.  Book II is the point in his arc where things are falling apart in every conceivable sense; he has some potentially serious long-term medical issues with a painkiller addiction resulting, the future is dubious, there's some old family skeletons that come up, and there's really no silver linings left for him.  Given the circumstances there's no way he would have handled it that  well.  It's also a fitting - if ugly - coda to something that needed to  be buried.  That one scene is brutal; it has to be because at that point he's _mad _in every sense of the word.  

By Book III he's gotten somewhat better control of his temper.  The demons that drove him the book prior are still there, being hardwired into the character, but not every transgression calls for the chainsaw and the sledgehammer.  And like I said, her lie is a particular case - it's a narrow and unusual set of circumstances, and probably one of the rare instances that could thread that particular needle in his estimate.  Even so, he can't let her slide completely and things from that point can't just carry on unaffected.  He can only let it go once.  After that there's a new understanding and no allowance for a repeat...but he gets why it happened.  

It's kind of a messy deal all around.  

It's worth pointing out that the original plot sketch predates the redrawing of most of my characters by several years.  The initial story was more plot-driven.  After looking things over and fleshing out the character(s) in somewhat more depth it shifted to relying more on character.  One casualty of the process were scenes that carried a lot of drama, but did so by running counter to the personalities involved.  Rather than have them acting out of character I scrapped a bunch of stuff that was no longer accurate but otherwise passably written.


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## JJBuchholz (Mar 15, 2021)

acatchynick said:


> If you let the characters write, the story will be different than you want.



Concur. The story and/or plot takes on a whole new - and possibly unwanted - life of it's own. This can also spawn
several more issues related to the overall story, such as:

- Needed conflict or tension getting lost somewhere along the line. It can be brought back at a later time, but it 
might not make as much sense.
- Sudden lack of character development. The same conflict that just got buried would have helped the characters
to grow at that time.
- The original plot changes without the writer really paying attention to that fact, and the story turns into something
else entirely, creating a different product than first planned.

Just my two cents.

-JJB


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## indianroads (Mar 15, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Yes!  But as a novice, experiencing this for the first time, I wasn't prepared for it.   Now I just need to figure out how to manage the situation.  It is comforting that others struggle as well.  That's why WF is so useful to get feedback...so we know the things we experience with writing are normal.
> 
> But it is becoming more clear to me that writing fiction is a very powerful thing.  We tap into our own subconscious for inspiration and content, and then we think we have the power as the author to tell the story...but maybe we have less power than we think.



Where do ideas come from? Inspiration just floats by like leaves on a stream, some we pick up, others we let go. But they're more than just leaves, they're worlds unto themselves, filled with amazing things and people. I don't believe we create them, writers simply know how to listen to their stories and jot them down as they pass by.

In a sense, writers are the luckiest of people because we see, smell, hear, taste, and live the story, while others can only read our narrative.

ETA: Came across this today:

_I have lived a thousand lives and have loved a thousand loves. 
I have walked on distant worlds and seen the end of time.
Because I read.
- George RR Martin_


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## VRanger (Mar 15, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Hence my question, do your characters ever take control?
> 
> (Examples if you please)



I don't think it's so much the characters take control, as you add depth to the characters as you write them, and therefore you have more information to guide their actions. The more you know about them, the more options exist for their activities.

Example?
In the sci-fi book I wrote last spring, the MC and his fiancé are kidnapped, then make their escape into an environment the MC grew up in, but from which he cannot readily seek assistance. The idea was to get him 'out in the wild' where he'd have to rely on his street smarts to recover from their dilemma. However, during the course of this set of chapters, the fiancé's character began to fill out, and I let a situation arise where her society skills paved the way for their escape, also completing another goal they wished to accomplish. So I had both characters working within established skill sets, and I found a way for hers to shine. At the same time, since she was 'a fish out of water', I had the opportunity to explore how she reacted to adversity in that context.

So yes, that set of chapters had her doing a lot of things I hadn't planned when I dumped them into the situation, but it all grew out of deciding to let her approach their problems as a spunky participant rather than whining and complaining about it, which was an option. The character was immensely wealthy and could have descended into spoiled rich girl territory. However, previous events had showed her to have a spine, so it was natural to let her come alive 'under fire'.


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## Taylor (Mar 16, 2021)

JJBuchholz said:


> Concur. The story and/or plot takes on a whole new - and possibly unwanted - life of it's own. This can also spawn
> several more issues related to the overall story, such as:
> 
> - Needed conflict or tension getting lost somewhere along the line. It can be brought back at a later time, but it
> ...



Yes exactly!  That's why one has to be careful not to let the characters act in a way that manipulates your plot.  Unless you feel confident that you can tweak the plot, but I think that is dangerous.  If you do let them yank it in a different direction, it would be wise to go back to the original plan and map out how the change in direction will affect the plot and make sure that you can still get to a satisfying end.  And if you don't like it better than your first idea, then rein them in and force them to do what you want. 

 And as *acatchynick* points out if you "spoil" them you may end up having to fix the logical mistakes in the end.

This is a really good article talks about characters talking in her head. She asks two questions:

*Do your characters talk to you? What do you do when they go stubbornly silent?*

It’s kind of the opposite problem, but it could also cause a "sudden lack of character development". I haven’t experienced that yet.  My characters are always very noisy.  However, I like her idea about journaling:



> “If a scene just isn’t coming alive for me, I like to try to imagine how it would read if one of my characters was writing it down as a diary or journal entry– or maybe as a letter to someone they love. I don’t necessarily write that journal version down, but just imagining it is often enough to get my character talking again.
> 
> https://writerunboxed.com/2017/01/05/are-your-characters-talking/”


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## Taylor (Mar 16, 2021)

vranger said:


> I don't think it's so much the characters take control, as you add depth to the characters as you write them, and therefore you have more information to guide their actions. The more you know about them, the more options exist for their activities.
> 
> Example?
> In the sci-fi book I wrote last spring, the MC and his fiancé are kidnapped, then make their escape into an environment the MC grew up in, but from which he cannot readily seek assistance. The idea was to get him 'out in the wild' where he'd have to rely on his street smarts to recover from their dilemma. However, during the course of this set of chapters, the fiancé's character began to fill out, and I let a situation arise where her society skills paved the way for their escape, also completing another goal they wished to accomplish. So I had both characters working within established skill sets, and I found a way for hers to shine. At the same time, since she was 'a fish out of water', I had the opportunity to explore how she reacted to adversity in that context.
> ...



Glad you avoided the stereotype. And that type of adversity is less typical than the opposite, "fish out of water" in high society, a la My Fair Lady.

But however you describe it, it sounds like when you know your characters well enough, you are open to how they might respond in a given situation. I like how you describe it as "dumping them"...lol! I have a very visual mind and I literally see them flying from your head onto the page.


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## Llyralen (Mar 16, 2021)

> And in this case, the second scene actually plays into the plot and character motivations even better than my first idea.



I’d like to hear more about that.  

 I haven’t written enough to know if it’s better when the characters take over or not.   I think it must be if you yourself are finding it more fulfilling and also feel like you’re learning and growing with the characters as team-players with them.  I would think.   But that is just a theory for me right now.  I usually like my stories that seem to write themselves, even at my level of experience.  

I’d also like to hear more about SueC ‘s experience.   What do you think?  If the author is learning from a more real and subsequently more complex, more “gray” character, wouldn’t that also be good for readers?  But you think some of your readers didn’t handle it as well?  I think that’s true for many people in real life, that it is difficult to deal with “the gray” and the context that makes people make more sense and be more sympathetic?    What do you both think, though?

Edit:  I accidentally cut Taylor’s name off the quote, I didn’t mean to.  I hope you see this, Taylor.  Also it sounds like this whole thread is discussing this question.  I will read through.


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## Llyralen (Mar 16, 2021)

SueC said:


> My great weakness in writing is bad guys, and believe me when I tell you that people have asked my why I felt compelled to make him softer, in a way, or I guess you could say more sympathetic. I can't very well say that he made me do it!



See the question to Taylor and to you, above. 
Write me a note to let me know which book if we aren’t allowed to say here in the discussion. 

What do you think?  Does it make a better book when the characters take over like this?  Or when it feels like they do?   And you let them?


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## JJBuchholz (Mar 16, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Yes exactly!  That's why one has to be careful not to let the characters act in a way that manipulates your plot.




It's a fine line balancing the plot and characters while keeping the big picture in one's mind. And if you write several series like I do, you
also have to keep character arcs and series plot arcs in your thoughts as well. No one ever said being a writer was easy, but when a WIP
is finally finished, it's both very rewarding and very relaxing. Until the next project, of course.




Taylor said:


> Unless you feel confident that you can tweak the plot, but I think that is dangerous.  If you do let them yank it
> in a different direction, it would be wise to go back to the original plan and map out how the change in direction will affect the plot and
> make sure that you can still get to a satisfying end.  And if you don't like it better than your first idea, then rein them in and force them
> to do what you want.



Tweaking the plot can be very dangerous, not just because you're changing your original idea, but because said idea was exactly what
you wanted to write but are now changing it on the fly with little thought behind it. I am of the belief that if a writer is suddenly dragged
down by his/her characters and resolves to make the story suddenly revolve around them instead of the central plot, that he or she 
doesn't have a clear idea of what they're writing, and never really did in the first place.

And....before anyone brings up the plotter/pantser stuff, know that most pantsers might not plan anything on paper, but have a general
idea in their heads as they start writing their first draft. This I know, because even though I'm happy to plot, there are times when I will
be a pantser and just go nuts in a blank WordPad file.




Taylor said:


> And as *acatchynick* points out if you "spoil" them you may end up having to fix the logical mistakes in the end.



Which is more trouble than it's worth, for the most part.

-JJB


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## Taylor (Mar 16, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> I’d like to hear more about that.
> 
> I haven’t written enough to know if it’s better when the characters take over or not.   I think it must be if you yourself are finding it more fulfilling and also feel like you’re learning and growing with the characters as team-players with them.  I would think.   But that is just a theory for me right now.  I usually like my stories that seem to write themselves, even at my level of experience.
> 
> ...



Yes I recognized my own quote.  Yes this behaviour works well too, and as *eternalgreen *mentoned, the conflict is still bubbling underneath and could be even more intense when the quarrel happens later on, because at that point they may have already spent the money.  I haven't written that much either and this was the first time I had this experience, and I know that fictional characters can't actually control the author, but I thought it was good way to explain it.  Others seem to get it...what I was trying to say.  I will be interested to hear if this happens to you in the future.  It's quite magical really!


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## Llyralen (Mar 18, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Yes I recognized my own quote.  Yes this behaviour works well too, and as *eternalgreen *mentoned, the conflict is still bubbling underneath and could be even more intense when the quarrel happens later on, because at that point they may have already spent the money.  I haven't written that much either and this was the first time I had this experience, and I know that fictional characters can't actually control the author, but I thought it was good way to explain it.  Others seem to get it...what I was trying to say.  I will be interested to hear if this happens to you in the future.  It's quite magical really!



I think it actually happens a lot for me.  Since I haven’t actually finished any of the things I’m aspiring to finish, I’m am sometimes not sure if I can turn it into a good thing.   I’m also present for when my husband’s characters go too far.  I usually say “Sleep on it and see what it becomes.”  I think sometimes after feeling like the pen took over I’m left with this feeling of needing to figure out how to herd cats that are actually stationary words on paper.  I have a story half-baked like that right now (the one I keep talking to you about with the call-girl) but I think I’ve got to let it just lie there for a while.  Maybe a year even or something because my subconscious isn’t pulling together what I’m throwing at it except to bring out certain characters at this point.   The ending scene started in my subconscious very powerfully so I think I might just have to go back to the plainness of that beginning, maybe, since everything I’ve tried to add is actually drowning out that initial emotional impact of what my subconscious was trying to show me.  But it seemed like such a good story to add more thrilling elements to.  I don’t know.   I was saying I haven’t written enough to know if it’s good or bad to let the characters have their way and their say.   

The real accurate honest thing for me to say is really that I “believe” in my subconscious.  I learn so much from my subconscious.  My subconscious will work on stories I tell it to work on and show me how to tie this all together and why or if my subconscious is not into it and not supplying the answer then I’d better drop it.  Often my subconscious will present me with things I’ve never thought or experienced consciously that my subconscious thought I had better know.   My subconscious is good with choosing my friends as well, btw.  I listen.  I’m not as far into understanding the subconscious as Carl Jung or Joseph Campbell where they can consciously explain and teach others about the subconscious, but I’d say I’m somewhere in the middle there between where people are usually at with their subconscious and meeting those two since I can listen and learn from my own.  I’m talking about dreams and symbols, but stories bubble up from the subconscious when I’m awake too.   I think this is often where stories come from for many people, they just maybe haven’t thought about it. 

But then there was the time that One of my characters gave a few Viking facts and several pages later it was like I was vomiting 12 years of Viking research.... It didn’t look much like the conscious story I was trying to write right then, and I needed some space and time to come back to the conscious story.    I guess I do label those two places of where a story comes from for me, although I think people just experience those two as mixed usually and often I do too.  Or the two minds throw information back and forth so that the writing is coming from both places together as a team in the end.   I trust my subconscious much more than my conscious though.  There are so many reasons why.  I’d be talking for a while to expound on it.   The main reason is that it’s more powerfully resonate.  Who was it that said if you want to effect history (or was it society?), you need to change its symbols?   Probably Jung.


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## Taylor (Mar 18, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> But then there was the time that One of my characters gave a few Viking facts and several pages later it was like I was vomiting 12 years of Viking research....



I laughed out loud when I read this...so thanks for that!  Great way to start my dry day with a good laugh.  (I have been helping the government with Covid relief, and there is just nothing funny about it.)



Llyralen said:


> It didn’t look much like the conscious story I was trying to write right then, and I needed some space and time to come back to the conscious story.    I guess I do label those two places of where a story comes from for me, although I think people just experience those two as mixed usually and often I do too.  Or the two minds throw information back and forth so that the writing is coming from both places together as a team in the end.   I trust my subconscious much more than my conscious though.  There are so many reasons why.  I’d be talking for a while to expound on it.   The main reason is that it’s more powerfully resonate.  Who was it that said if you want to effect history (or was it society?), you need to change its symbols?   Probably Jung.



Well, I'm not going to try to compete with Jung for a profound thought! I'm not even too certain what that one means, but the 'Black Lives Matter movement comes to mind. I'm not sure how you are applying it to writing though...

I think you really have an interesting concept here, with the idea that the conscious and subconscious work as a team. The "two minds'' as you describe it is catchy. I could see that being a good book title, fiction or nonfiction. And to bring my thoughts back to the topic, do you think that your character is trying to tell you something? In fact, really taking control! Is it possible that they were trying to tell you to write a nonfiction book about Vikings?

The reason I suggest this is because your posts are so competent and entertaining, I could easily read a whole book of it.


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## Llyralen (Mar 18, 2021)

Taylor said:


> I laughed out loud when I read this...so thanks for that!  Great way to start my dry day with a good laugh.  (I have been helping the government with Covid relief, and there is just nothing funny about it.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



These complements are like a nice yummy hug, atm.   Thank you for what you are doing for our people with COVId.  It must be exhausting!  So many thanks on that!   I’m so grateful to be able to move forward.  My elderly parents just got the second vaccine and as I am a medical person, my husband and I are vaccinated.   I am so longing for the day that I can go back to choir!   thank you, Taylor for the part you are playing!!!

The textbook stuff on Vikings?   I studied well beyond what a novel needed, and I have lived in that era and those towns and with those characters and with their language in my mind for so long... I could write many textbooks on Vikings.  When I bring them up, are they entertaining to you?  I always think I am boring the heck out of people. I started my research before the show the Vikings came out... so people were really surprised and/or annoyed at the idea of me deeply studying them then.  Now I think it’s considered kind of trendy.  I think they are such an entertaining group!  And the people who studied them too!   But I’m still kind of amazed or suspicious of the idea that people want to hear the real stuff.   I think my mind if given a chance wants to spill all of my research out that has been brewing there for so long, foaming at the mouth almost, but I have no interest in writing a textbook— at least not a regular one— at this time. 

I did hear about a man (historian) who used fictional stories to explain what was going on for people during the Black Plague.  Kind of like “the girl in the red coat” in Schindler’s List, he would write a story to represent what was happening for a group.  Our minds do so much better with stories than they do with statistics to empathize and visualize what is happening.  For me, though, I do have ambition to pick out the story of several Viking women to make novels about.  I think of them as semi-biographies.  I was really surprised when that biography came out about Cleopatera some years ago.  I think it won a Pulitzer.   To call it a biography with so little information and get use all the information about place and time to do it was something like I try to do, but I want to have the narrative.  I want to be able to place myself there as accurately as possible. 

I know the actual story like “it’s just a novel” gets lost or does not get as much attention for me, and I have been working on getting space from the studying due to this.  I think I’m in a good place now.  Really a good place to write about the Greenlanders.  I need one or two more books that I have already acquired.  I need to understand slavery and piracy in the 1400’s with the merchant guilds and their power just a bit better and I will be there.  I have a few scenes and I love them.  I really hope and pray that my character Kolgrim (he is not my MC) fleshes out for me even more clearly in my subconscious.  He is key.  He is the historical man who was burned as a witch due to an affair.  Everyone else is there— almost everyone.  He’s kind of there, but I need him stronger.  We have to just love him so much in order for the book to be powerful.   I’m glad I’m writing this post, it’s helping me see what I need to work on.  I also need to know more intimately the land.  I know some, I need more.  Because of my base with Viking archeology I think it is possible for me to write several books.  There are three that I want.  Man, I hope I live long enough to get one with the way I do things. 

I think I label most things that my subconscious comes up with as my subconscious— so I think even if a character is fleshing themselves out in my subconscious, I still label it my subconscious.  Except sometimes I realize characters my subconscious is showing me are more closely related to people who I used to know.  But that’s my subconscious too, imo.   I can say “The character came out and did” and surprised me.  But I still think that is my subconscious..... of course, right?


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## MistWolf (Mar 20, 2021)

Running role playing games means having to deal with characters who go their own way because the characters are run by other people. It's a good experience for a writers because it teaches how to keep a story on track when characters are constantly side tracking and derailing the plot. The trick is to have a punchline and to keep it in mind during the journey. You have to be flexible and have the ability to see the mechanisms in play behind the scenes.

For example, during one story arc, the punchline was "But I'm Not A Demon". The theme was, the tears of twin girls born under unusual circumstances, were needed to restore the Demon King who (according to legend) was turned to stone. A power hungry wizard spent years researching the Legend Of The Demon King to bring him back to life and use him to take over the world. In this case, there was a second punchline- Legends Are Real, But They Lie.

My two players were playing the twin girls. As my players are intelligent, creative, quick thinkers and work well together, I was constantly dealing with developments I could not plan for. I had to think fast how to herd these cats towards delivering the punchline. Of course, I have the advantage of knowing my players well and how to use hook, push & pull and other elements to keep them engaged and want to find out how it was going to turn out. It was a lot of work, but their reaction made it all worth it.

I use the same technique when writing- get to the punchline. I don't always have a punchline when I start. Sometimes I have to start telling the story to find out what it is. When I do find it, I let the characters roam free and see how they get to it. Or, until the characters lead me to the punchline. It makes for better story telling than leading them around by the hand.


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## VRanger (Mar 20, 2021)

MistWolf said:


> Running role playing games means having to deal with characters who go their own way because the characters are run by other people.



Tell me about it. LOL My first business was interactive fiction inside a role playing game I designed. I charged a base $3 a "move" (plus $1 for each additional character in the party). I advertised at Origins, Gencon, and Dragon Magazine.

The "moves" I sent would be a page long, which ran 300-400 words. To earn a living, I needed to turn out about 45 moves a day, which included reading the player's response and adapting it into the story. As it turns out, you can't churn out 16K original words a day, each and every day (not including reading the incoming move instructions, plus printing the move, addressing and stuffing the envelopes, doing the rest of the paperwork and business chores). Luckily, the moves weren't my only income stream. There was an entry fee to join the game, and I sold adventure modules based on the game. That supplemental income was important.

So as stories built, luckily it turned out that most players chose to solve the challenges I presented in similar ways, meaning I could reuse prior responses with minor adjustments, such as globally replacing character names and including a sentence or two referencing particular actions from their instructions.

BUT, there were some players who NEVER did the expected thing.  So they required a move written "from scratch" every time I got their response. However, often those created new branches to use over again, and those were often the most interesting adventure paths. In the summer of 2019 I adapted three books from the adventures of such players.

My most memorable customer was a lady name Mel (Marion) Viles, who played along with her daughter and a group of her daughter's friends. I had to do moves from scratch for them every time. LOL But together they wrote the most creative moves. Their adventures turned out to be more of a collaborative effort, because they often wanted to do my job and advance the story ... not just plan their next set of actions.


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## Taylor (Mar 20, 2021)

Oh dear...it's happening again!

The MC's brother was supposed to lose at a poker game and offer up the stocks he was given to the family business. The 2% he signs over cause the family to lose majority ownership and control of the company which puts the family business in peril.

He has been the black sheep for some time now. Since he dropped out of medical school, his wife dumped him, so he sailed around the world and then decided to live on his rickety sailboat and drop out of society. All of this caused him to fall out of favour with his dad. They are still on bad terms but starting to warm up to each other again. Now, this!

I see his mop head of disheveled hair, freckly face and big warm brown eyes and think of my own brother. I just can’t do it.

No one told me it was going to be this hard to come down the arc… Sigh...

Am I just not hard-nosed enough?


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## EternalGreen (Mar 20, 2021)

That sounds like an excellent plot.

I'd say go for it.


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## indianroads (Mar 20, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Oh dear...it's happening again!
> 
> The MC's brother was supposed to lose at a poker game and offer up the stocks he was given to the family business. The 2% he signs over cause the family to lose majority ownership and control of the company which puts the family business in peril.
> 
> ...



sounds like an interesting story!


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## Taylor (Mar 20, 2021)

indianroads said:


> sounds like an interesting story!



Thanks, but way too complicated I'm afraid.  Meeting with a friend who is a stockbroker, to see if I can create the same amount of conflict without throwing poor Campbell under the bus.  The company needs to fall prey to a hostile takeover. This writing thing....it's not easy....


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## Taylor (Mar 20, 2021)

EternalGreen said:


> That sounds like an excellent plot.
> 
> I'd say go for it.



I should I know...it was a good plot.  I might have to go for counseling afterwards. This stuff is all too close to home...


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## Theglasshouse (Mar 21, 2021)

What if he gives up in poker an item of worth such as a wedding ring to someone he knows. Then he's accused of being a thief. He risks his life to save a marriage and to save himself from financial hardship (his or another person's wedding ring for example). Keep writing, it's unpredictable. Also remember to read about maybe some old poker literature. There's bound to be some gold or good and interesting material somewhere.


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## indianroads (Mar 21, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Thanks, but way too complicated I'm afraid.  Meeting with a friend who is a stockbroker, to see if I can create the same amount of conflict without throwing poor Campbell under the bus.  The company needs to fall prey to a hostile takeover. This writing thing....it's not easy....



How close is your POV? A very tight POV allows me to write their thoughts without filtering, and that (I hope) makes the story clear to the reader.

You might try to boil everything down to your character's motives - what drives them? For me, once I reduce it to something simple, fear, anger, jealousy, ... , writing the character and their actions becomes much easier.

It's late and I'm tired - so probably none of the above makes any sense, but I'll leave it alone anyway.


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## Taylor (Mar 21, 2021)

Theglasshouse said:


> What if he gives up in poker an item of worth such as a wedding ring to someone he knows. Then he's accused of being a thief. He risks his life to save a marriage and to save himself from financial hardship (his or another person's wedding ring for example). Keep writing, it's unpredictable. Also remember to read about maybe some old poker literature. There's bound to be some gold or good and interesting material somewhere.



Thanks for the ideas...I like them.  He is a minor character who doesn't really need to get into trouble in this book.  But that could be good for a future sequel.  The thing that need to happen in this book, is the MC's family business is under siege by a capital investment firm.  I may make it happen another way...stay tuned.


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## Taylor (Mar 22, 2021)

indianroads said:


> How close is your POV? A very tight POV allows me to write their thoughts without filtering, and that (I hope) makes the story clear to the reader.
> 
> You might try to boil everything down to your character's motives - what drives them? For me, once I reduce it to something simple, fear, anger, jealousy, ... , writing the character and their actions becomes much easier.
> 
> It's late and I'm tired - so probably none of the above makes any sense, but I'll leave it alone anyway.



Yes, good point about motivation.  I do quite a bit of background on each character, so perhaps that is what is dictating what they do.  I went back and reviewed this character's profile.  Since this character dropped out of med school and his wife dumped him, he has not led a conservative life-style.  Sailing around the world and not holding a steady job he generates his income by IT consulting and stock investments.    But, so far he has not done anything truly irresponsible like this.  He would have to have a pretty strong motivation, and I have not written anything to support that yet.  So I can either develop the plot to provide the motivation or not pursue this.   

I think this was a case where I was adding something to the plot because I had a bit of a hole, but the character said, “No!”   I met with a friend who is a stock broker.  We played around with some different ideas for how the company can become a victim of a hostile takeover or fall into some other type of market peril.  I don't have to make the decision just yet.  The initial equity financing has taken place.  There will be about a six months jump ahead a few chapters from now that the trouble starts.  The fact that the protag's family business may be in trouble is a bit of a red herring, as it is linked to the antagonist, but is not the main plot, so it might not be worth it to throw this character into disrepute over it.


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## indianroads (Mar 22, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Yes, good point about motivation.  I do quite a bit of background on each character, so perhaps that is what is dictating what they do.  I went back and reviewed this character's profile.  Since this character dropped out of med school and his wife dumped him, he has not led a conservative life-style.  Sailing around the world and not holding a steady job he generates his income by IT consulting and stock investments.    But, so far he has not done anything truly irresponsible like this.  He would have to have a pretty strong motivation, and I have not written anything to support that yet.  So I can either develop the plot to provide the motivation or not pursue this.
> 
> I think this was a case where I was adding something to the plot because I had a bit of a hole, but the character said, “No!”   I met with a friend who is a stock broker.  We played around with some different ideas for how the company can become a victim of a hostile takeover or fall into some other type of market peril.  I don't have to make the decision just yet.  The initial equity financing has taken place.  There will be about a six months jump ahead a few chapters from now that the trouble starts.  The fact that the protag's family business may be in trouble is a bit of a red herring, as it is linked to the antagonist, but is not the main plot, so it might not be worth it to throw this character into disrepute over it.



To me, it sounds as if your characters main driver is *affirmation* that stems from past failures. He failed at med school and in his mind his wife dumped him because he wasn't good enough. Seeking self-affirmation would drive him away from a conservative lifestyle, and sailing around the world has a sort of glamour to it that he believes could impress his wife, or at least make her assessment of him wrong. His past threw him off-kilter, so living a free and easy lifestyle thinking that it would make him seem attractive to others would be likely. In reality other people would probably see his actions as irresponsible.


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## Taylor (Mar 22, 2021)

indianroads said:


> To me, it sounds as if your characters main driver is *affirmation* that stems from past failures. He failed at med school and in his mind his wife dumped him because he wasn't good enough. Seeking self-affirmation would drive him away from a conservative lifestyle, and sailing around the world has a sort of glamour to it that he believes could impress his wife, or at least make her assessment of him wrong. His past threw him off-kilter, so living a free and easy lifestyle thinking that it would make him seem attractive to others would be likely. In reality other people would probably see his actions as irresponsible.



True, but they are not irresponsible to point that they are deliberate or hurt other people.  I don't think he is looking for affirmation per se.  It's more that his failures are the result of his inability to live a conservative life.  He is simply a free spririt by nature.  His sailing around the world is purely selfish, and has no relation to others or wanting to impress others.  So, him actually taking action to sign away his shares in the family business would be irresponsible at another level.   It would be somewhat of a departure for the character unless I give him some motivation to cross this line.   And what's more is, I hadn't planned this.  And people on this thread warn about not going down a path that changes your original ideas, unless it enhances the story.  So this is my dilemma. Will this enhance the story, or throw it off?


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## indianroads (Mar 22, 2021)

Taylor said:


> True, but they are not irresponsible to point that they are deliberate or hurt other people.  I don't think he is looking for affirmation per se.  It's more that his failures are the result of his inability to live a conservative life.  He is simply a free spririt by nature.  His sailing around the world is purely selfish, and has no relation to others or wanting to impress others.  So, him actually taking action to sign away his shares in the family business would be irresponsible at another level.   It would be somewhat of a departure for the character unless I give him some motivation to cross this line.   And what's more is, I hadn't planned this.  And people on this thread warn about not going down a path that changes your original ideas, unless it enhances the story.  So this is my dilemma. Will this enhance the story, or throw it off?



So, he's a narcissist at heart? If so, why would he give away shares in the company? A self centered person wants to be admired and have the world revolve around him. Don't those shares provide the money to do all the wild things he does? A true narcissist would view his past as failures of other people, not him. His college didn't recognize his brilliance and he wife wasn't worthy - or didn't _understand_ him.

Often beneath narcissism is insecurity (surprisingly). It's like they're overcompensating for aspects of themselves they want to keep buried.

In my youth, I dated a woman like that... she was insufferable.


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## Taylor (Mar 22, 2021)

indianroads said:


> So, he's a narcissist at heart? If so, why would he give away shares in the company? A self centered person wants to be admired and have the world revolve around him. Don't those shares provide the money to do all the wild things he does? A true narcissist would view his past as failures of other people, not him. His college didn't recognize his brilliance and he wife wasn't worthy - or didn't _understand_ him.
> 
> Often beneath narcissism is insecurity (surprisingly). It's like they're overcompensating for aspects of themselves they want to keep buried.
> 
> In my youth, I dated a woman like that... she was insufferable.



Yeah, see that's the problem, I can't find a good reason for him signing away the shares.  It was the only way, I could concoct the hostile takeover.  Another company has to gain 51% of the ownership. This happens secretly, usually over a 24 hour period. But they must be able to secure majority shareholding.  So I needed some rougue shares floating out there that the family didn't know about.  Combined all family members and officers the founders own 51%. Nobody else in the company would do it either.  So this could be a case where I have to re-work the plot a bit.   

Oh and as far as him making money off the shares, the company is only in start-up mode, so no returns yet.  It's an SPE for the larger family business.

Sorry about the girlfriend...lol!  Sounds like you dodged a bullet.


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## indianroads (Mar 22, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Yeah, see that's the problem, I can't find a good reason for him signing away the shares.  It was the only way, I could concoct the hostile takeover.  Another company has to gain 51% of the ownership. This happens secretly, usually over a 24 hour period. But they must be able to secure majority shareholding.  So I needed some rougue shares floating out there that the family didn't know about.  Combined all family members and officers the founders own 51%. Nobody else in the company would do it either.  So this could be a case where I have to re-work the plot a bit.
> 
> Oh and as far as him making money off the shares, the company is only in start-up mode, so no returns yet.  It's an SPE for the larger family business.
> 
> Sorry about the girlfriend...lol!  Sounds like you dodged a bullet.



A narcissist wouldn’t just give the shares away. On the positive side, he could be repaying a debt, or is gaining something intangible in return. On the negative side, he could give them up to hurt someone.

where are these shares going, and to who?


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## Taylor (Mar 22, 2021)

indianroads said:


> A narcissist wouldn’t just give the shares away. On the positive side, he could be repaying a debt, or is gaining something intangible in return. On the negative side, he could give them up to hurt someone.
> 
> where are these shares going, and to who?



He would sign them over to someone at a poker game and they would then list them on the OTC market as penny stocks.


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## indianroads (Mar 22, 2021)

Taylor said:


> He would sign them over to someone at a poker game and they would then list them on the OTC market as penny stocks.


This reminds me vaguely of Vonnegut’s Sirens of Titan, where the MC gives away his fortune while drunk at a party. In that case he was sickened by his family of origin, and giving away everything and becoming destitute himself was a self destructive way to find himself.

So, deep down how does your character see himself?
ETA
Selling them as penny stocks would hurt the company, is that his goal?


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## Taylor (Mar 22, 2021)

indianroads said:


> This reminds me vaguely of Vonnegut’s Sirens of Titan, where the MC gives away his fortune while drunk at a party. In that case he was sickened by his family of origin, and giving away everything and becoming destitute himself was a self destructive way to find himself.
> 
> So, deep down how does your character see himself?
> ETA
> Selling them as penny stocks would hurt the company, is that his goal?



I'll check out the Vonnegut book.  Thanks for the reference.

But no, he doesn't have a goal to hurt the family.  If he does it, it would be just a means to an end, to satisfy the gambling debt. He's not a malicious person, just a little undisciplined.


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## indianroads (Mar 22, 2021)

How did he come to own the shares? If too easily he may see them as having little value


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## Taylor (Mar 22, 2021)

indianroads said:


> How did he come to own the shares? If too easily he may see them as having little value



Yes, that's a possible angle.  Hi sister issued the shares so he would feel a part of the family venture.  She had no reason in the past not trust him.  It's great you asking me all these questions.  It's forcing me to think about his motivation...and the more I think about it, the more I can't justify it.  

In this case the character is taking control and rightfully so.


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## indianroads (Mar 22, 2021)

Was he the black sheep of the family?

A lot of people (both my wife and I) were abused by our family of origin, and have cut contact with them. Perhaps you might explore that.


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## MistWolf (Mar 23, 2021)

Don't have him sign away his shares. Simply have him proxy his votes to someone else. Or, vote with the hostile takeover faction


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## Taylor (Mar 23, 2021)

MistWolf said:


> Don't have him sign away his shares. Simply have him proxy his votes to someone else. Or, vote with the hostile takeover faction



Now that's an interesting idea...I like it!  But what's his motive?


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## Gamer_2k4 (Mar 23, 2021)

Taylor said:


> I guess I should explain my question.  I was writing a chapter that *I had pre-decided* needed to be a married couple having an argument over an expensive renovation.  He had agreed to look at samples when he came home from work.  She had laid everything out on the kitchen island for him to see.  He was then supposed to get annoyed at the amount of money they were spending and she was supposed to get defensive.  *This was to play into my plot and characterization.*
> 
> ...
> 
> It felt like they were writing themselves.



I've bolded parts of your post that stood out to me.  It sounds like your characters were already written and designed a certain way in your story or in your head, and you're trying to artificially change how you've already planned them by inserting a scene of conflict.  It didn't work for the story because it didn't work for your characters.

For something like that to work and not feel out of place, your characters need something already existing about them that would cause the money to be a source of contention.  Does the wife have a history of spending too much? Is the couple in debt? Has the husband just found out about some unexpected expense he'll have to pay? Maybe he's had a rough day of work and wants to lash out at someone?

Figure out a natural, organic reason for this to spark an argument (rather than "my story needs an argument here"), and your characters will be more cooperative to your vision.


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## Taylor (Mar 23, 2021)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> I've bolded parts of your post that stood out to me.  It sounds like your characters were already written and designed a certain way in your story or in your head, and you're trying to artificially change how you've already planned them by inserting a scene of conflict.  It didn't work for the story because it didn't work for your characters.
> 
> For something like that to work and not feel out of place, your characters need something already existing about them that would cause the money to be a source of contention.  Does the wife have a history of spending too much? Is the couple in debt? Has the husband just found out about some unexpected expense he'll have to pay? Maybe he's had a rough day of work and wants to lash out at someone?
> 
> Figure out a natural, organic reason for this to spark an argument (rather than "my story needs an argument here"), and your characters will be more cooperative to your vision.



Yes, money, making money, how much money people need and what they want to spend it on, is central to the theme.   These two have a fundamental difference in their values about money and lifestyle.  It is already written in the back story for both characters.   And yes there is a reason for the conflict built into the plot.  And it would have worked fine for the story, that's not the issue.  And, they still have money issues, but it just hasn't come to the surface yet.  

In my head, they started out differently, more open with each other and now they seem to be taking on a slightly different approach to life, and as I mentioned even works better.  What I'm learning is that there are more than one way to tell a story.  So everything I planned in the plot is still happening under the surface, it's just a matter of how it manifests itself in dialogue and actions.  Fortunately I'm still on track to realize my planned ending.


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## indianroads (Mar 23, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Yes, money, making money, how much money people need and what they want to spend it on, is central to the theme.   These two have a fundamental difference in their values about money and lifestyle.  It is already written in the back story for both characters.   And yes there is a reason for the conflict built into the plot.  And it would have worked fine for the story, that's not the issue.  And, they still have money issues, but it just hasn't come to the surface yet.
> 
> In my head, *they started out differently, more open with each other and now they seem to be taking on a slightly different approach to life*, and as I mentioned even works better.  What I'm learning is that there are more then one way to tell a story.  So everything I planned in the plot is still happening under the surface, it's just a matter of how it manifests itself in dialogue and actions.  Fortunately I'm still on track to realize my planned ending.



I believe it's important that characters have an arc, and change over the course of our stories. That's the 'about' of the story which stands separate from the plot.


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## Taylor (Mar 23, 2021)

indianroads said:


> I believe it's important that characters have an arc, and change over the course of our stories. That's the 'about' of the story which stands separate from the plot.



I'm glad to hear that, thank you.  It is the circumstances of the plot that have caused them to change how they communicate.  Something major is happening to their lives, but they dont' know it yet, however, they are starting to experience things that are the effects of the shift.  I guess before I started to write, I hadn't nailed down exactly how they would react, but it came clearer to me, after their environmental changes took place.  

This is the first time I've written a novel, and I think, I'm realizing with my style, I need a certain amount of planning, but will leave a certain amount open to what you all call "pansting".  I'm learning that the reason this combo planner/panster style works for me, is because I write a lot of the story in dialogue.  The dialogue flows to me naturally when I put myself in their heads...and then I just go with it.  I have also learned that this is what is preventing me from writing faster.  When writing I have to hear these voices, and sometimes they aren't there right away.  So to get past that, I just as vrangers describes it, "dump them somewhere", and then hope it flows.  So far it always has.   

So what I take from your comment is that this is all normal.  Is that right?


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## indianroads (Mar 23, 2021)

Taylor said:


> I'm glad to hear that, thank you.  It is the circumstances of the plot that have caused them to change how they communicate.  Something major is happening to their lives, but they dont' know it yet, however, they are starting to experience things that are the effects of the shift.  I guess before I started to write, I hadn't nailed down exactly how they would react, but it came clearer to me, after their environmental changes took place.
> 
> This is the first time I've written a novel, and I think, I'm realizing with my style, I need a certain amount of planning, but will leave a certain amount open to what you all call "pansting".  I'm learning that the reason this combo planner/panster style works for me, is because I write a lot of the story in dialogue.  The dialogue flows to me naturally when I put myself in their heads...and then I just go with it.  I have also learned that this is what is preventing me from writing faster.  When writing I have to hear these voices, and sometimes they aren't there right away.  So to get past that, I just as vrangers describes it, "dump them somewhere", and then hope it flows.  So far it always has.
> 
> So what I take from your comment is that this is all normal.  Is that right?



Normal... you're asking for normal among a gang of misfit authors? Establishing expectations from us is much harder than herding cats.

But - establishing strong character arcs is something I strive to do. For me, the story is secondary to the character - if I can't relate and root for them the story doesn't matter much.


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## Taylor (Mar 23, 2021)

indianroads said:


> Normal... you're asking for normal among a gang of misfit authors? Establishing expectations from us is much harder than herding cats.
> 
> But - establishing strong character arcs is something I strive to do. For me, the story is secondary to the character - if I can't relate and root for them the story doesn't matter much.



Perfect!


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## MistWolf (Mar 24, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Now that's an interesting idea...I like it!  But what's his motive?



To save the company. It's being mismanaged- not horribly, but just enough to make it vulnerable to a hostile takeover. Because of his past, the family dismisses him out of hand. But, he's learned a few things about the stock market and recognizes signs of eventual corporate implosion. He sets things in motion for the capital investors to step in and set things right.

No one sees it at the time, but it turns out to be the right move.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 24, 2021)

Unfortunately I've got the most boring response and that's 'a bit of both'. My characters will do what ever I tell them to do during the story/plot. I control that completely, and if the character I've created at the start of the story wouldn't do what I'm asking them to do, I go back and add that trait in or change an already established trait. 

As far as 'scenes' are concerned, the characters sometimes kinda do what they want to do but I'm sure it's really only my subconscious mind orchestrating things. For instance, I didn't know Sarah was going to bounce on the bed and call Arthur an old man. And I didn't know Arthur's response would be to pretend to be an old man and turn it back on Sarah. That was free-form writing. Was that the character or my subconscious? I think it was likely my subconscious.

I haven't got a romantic idea of writing. I'm a nuts and bolts guy.


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## Taylor (Mar 27, 2021)

MistWolf said:


> To save the company. It's being mismanaged- not horribly, but just enough to make it vulnerable to a hostile takeover. Because of his past, the family dismisses him out of hand. But, he's learned a few things about the stock market and recognizes signs of eventual corporate implosion. He sets things in motion for the capital investors to step in and set things right.
> 
> No one sees it at the time, but it turns out to be the right move.



I like this idea.  His sister who has been the business darling of the family has been heading up the new venture, but she wanders into areas beyound her expertise.  He is a stockmarket guru, so it works, and it fits in nicely with my original plot.  What I like about this is he is doing it with good intentions, hence in alignment with the characterization I have already fostered.  But the company that buys his shares is not the one who does the hostile take over.  It's another company that takes over to save it from a short-sale set-up. It's just that the 51% needs to be available on the market to buy. It's complicated, I don't want to give it all away, because I hope you read it.  

Thanks for this solution MistWolf...glad I reached out!


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## MistWolf (Mar 27, 2021)

You're welcome.

I suggest refining thus-
-Sister has done a good job at managing the company for years. However, there's been a paradigm shift that few know is coming. Brother explains the shift will leave the company vulnerable, but Sis says "No one else sees this. If the market changes, I'll deal with it. I always have." Bro decides to do what needs to be done to save company.
-Bro doesn't sell his stock. He either votes with the company that will save the family business or assigns his proxies to them. (I can tell there are things going on behind the scenes here, but I won't elaborate.) Not selling the stocks gives you a spin off story.
-Bro's secret maneuverings exposes the vulnerability of family biz to hostile short sale, but it's the only way to save it. This'll really get the family to hate him when his secret's exposed! Why did he keep it a secret? To hide the fact the family biz has vulnerabilities.


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## Taylor (Mar 28, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> These complements are like a nice yummy hug, atm.   Thank you for what you are doing for our people with COVId.  It must be exhausting!  So many thanks on that!   I’m so grateful to be able to move forward.  My elderly parents just got the second vaccine and as I am a medical person, my husband and I are vaccinated.   I am so longing for the day that I can go back to choir!   thank you, Taylor for the part you are playing!!!
> 
> The textbook stuff on Vikings?   I studied well beyond what a novel needed, and I have lived in that era and those towns and with those characters and with their language in my mind for so long... I could write many textbooks on Vikings.  When I bring them up, are they entertaining to you?  I always think I am boring the heck out of people. I started my research before the show the Vikings came out... so people were really surprised and/or annoyed at the idea of me deeply studying them then.  Now I think it’s considered kind of trendy.  I think they are such an entertaining group!  And the people who studied them too!   But I’m still kind of amazed or suspicious of the idea that people want to hear the real stuff.   I think my mind if given a chance wants to spill all of my research out that has been brewing there for so long, foaming at the mouth almost, but I have no interest in writing a textbook— at least not a regular one— at this time.
> 
> ...



Sorry for the late response.  I was remembering that I wanted to respond at the time, but yes the Covid relief has been consuming much of my time.  There is a lot of news coverage on the medical profession during Covid and rightly so, but what is not being seen is all of the efforts of governments to get the funding out.  Trillions of dollars flowing out of the public purse and meant to get into needy hands.  However, you can imagine the potential for fraud is great.  People like myself have been pulled in from wherever...and it's all hands on deck.  I've been involved in developing the training for controls and now I am even helping with the adjudication of the benefits.  We are trying to get the money out as fast as possible, but to the right people.

Now I'm not sure where you got the "textbook" idea.  I was not thinking of that at all.  I was imagining a non-fiction book written for pleasure reading.  Recently I found myself in an area of the library labeled "History".  I had originally visited to research some fiction authors, but I got completely lost in this section.  Historical gems on everything...the city of Chicago...the history of computers...the origin of the stock market, etc.  All a fascinating read.  My husband rarely reads fiction, but he always has a book on the go.  Right now he's reading about a specific ship.  I would read a book about Vikings for sure and I'd want to hear the real stuff.  Yes, the Netflix series piqued my interest, but I'd want to know what parts are realistic, right down to the fashions. However, historical novels can also be a great read, but it sounds very challenging to me,  I admire you for taking it on.

I agree it is our subconscious working when our 'characters take control'.  I know that a fictional character cannot really control us...lol!   It was just a way to describe it...and people seem to get it right away. 

 How are things going with Kolgrim?


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