# My Fiction Writing teacher's Top Ten List of things to Avoid in Short Stories



## JDegg (Dec 20, 2011)

The environment here is insanely hostile. Due to various reasons I'm taking this list off. I thought it would be interesting to share. And I've certainly learned a few things.


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## Sam (Dec 20, 2011)

JDegg said:


> That being said, do you guys think these are good rules to follow?



No. 

I think anyone who tells you that you can't do something does not know what writing is about. I'm not a short-story writer, but even so I can't imagine anyone sticking to those ten commandments. Numbers one, two, and nine are the only ones which have merit. Most of the rest contain either the word 'don't' or 'no'. I tend to ignore such pieces of advice. 

Why no guns? What if it's a short thriller story? 

Why no vomiting or crying? WTF? 

Why can't you kill your characters? They're your characters. 

"Show, don't tell". Telling is an important part of story*telling*. I can't understand why people put so much stock in this.


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## JDegg (Dec 20, 2011)

No guns, as I pointed out tends to run the gambit on the line between cliche and breaking rule #3. Also, you mention thrillers, and I should mention that these are rules meant for those of us aimed at writing literary short stories, closer to real life. Having a detective or active police officer character would be frowned upon unless it was done cleverly, yet it would probably still break rule #1.

Now if it were some super patriotic gun nut that would probably be a different story entirely. Then again these are mostly guidelines, not strict unbreakable rules.

As for killing them, you don't want to kill characters in a short story because you will likely not have set up the required emotions to show the passing of this person in a moving realistic way. That being said, I turned in a story this semester where a character died on page 4, though she was set up as a dying person immediately and she really enjoyed the story.

Again, guidelines, not rules. Specifically tips. As for show don't tell, go read any story that is made entirely of exposition and tell me its better than a story entirely made of scenes. The real rule would translate better to "more scene than exposition."


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## JosephB (Dec 20, 2011)

The crying/vomit/gun thing is pretty random. He forgot about the story beginning with the MC waking up. And my favorite -- the story that starts with a weather report.


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## ScientistAsHero (Dec 20, 2011)

I think most of these are good rules to follow, but here are my thoughts on them. A couple of them don't make much sense to me.

1.) On general principle I agree with this one.
2.) Again, this one is usually a good idea -- although there are going to be the occasional types of stories where it might work.
3.) I don't agree with this one. If it adds to the story it's fine in my book. From what you say it sounds like the teacher just doesn't believe the class has the literary skills to pull it off effectively, which I wouldn't know one way or the other. But as a general concept I don't see a problem with killing off your characters, as long as it's not superficial or done just for "shock value."
4.) I would mostly agree with this. But I guess it depends on what you call a coincidence -- I could imagine a story that begins when a poverty-stricken bum finds a winning lottery ticket, or something. Again, it's mainly in the execution.
5.) I would agree with this but there's a flip side to it too -- sometimes beginning writers make every little action in a story this big, elaborate description, which can be unnecessary.
6.) This sounds like a pretty good idea in most situations.
7.) I'm curious as to whether or not your teacher finds that there's too much of this in books already. Why does he say "don't use them"? That seems pretty restrictive. I would say that you don't have to write out the sounds of them, like I wouldn't have a vomiting character saying out loud: "Hurk... blgh... BLLEEEECCCCHHH!" But if the story calls for either, I don't see the harm.
8.) I totally disagree with this one. I admit many movies and books feature guns and violence but unless you're planning to eliminate an entire genre of fiction I don't see how you could always adhere to this. It seems like a blanket statement to say you should not use them at all.
9.) I would agree with this one. I'm guilty of writing way too much dialogue in my work. 
10.) This one sounds kind of like it was made in jest... not really sure what to make of it. I've laughed at some things I've written when sober, and also cringed at some things I've written when drunk, so I dunno...


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## Jon M (Dec 20, 2011)

Agree with number six completely. Of course, if the writer is trying his best to show, and not tell, then he is probably already doing this. 

All of these seem like guidelines for literary / slice-of-life type fiction. I agree that some of them seem pretty random -- the guns and vomiting stuff -- but for the most part it's all pretty good advice. Regarding number nine, I think it's better to say dialogue should be oblique, as if both sides have their own scripts that they never deviate from. That's kind of an easy way to make dialogue interesting and tense.


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## Rob (Dec 20, 2011)

1. No cliches. Rather obvious but nevertheless.
*Nothing specific to short stories here.*

2. Do not change tense midstory or point of view midparagraph.
*Nothing specific to short stories here, either.*

3. Don't kill your characters. It often only serves to cut short their arcs. Definitely DO NOT KILL YOUR PROTAGONIST.
*Silly rule. If it makes sense in the context of the story to kill a character, do so. Story trumps rules.*

4. No coincidences. I.e. your budding film student doesn't run into Steven Spielberg and get a once in a lifetime opportunity to hit it big.
*Nothing specific to short stories here either.*

5. Show, don't tell (I thought we were avoiding cliches). Now in practice I'll say this isn't a golden rule, but finding the correct put telling into practice can be difficult.
*Nothing specific to short stories here.*

6. Do not coach the reader. In short, don't use lines like, "He chuckled to himself," don't tell your reader what emotion they or the characters should be feeling. To add to this, don't use sound words. I.e. Ahah! or Hahaha! or anything along those lines. A character's actions and responses should be characterized in their dialogue or following actions, not through the use of sounds or coaching exposition.
*Nothing specific to short stories.*

7. Don't use vomiting or crying. If they are there they cannot be the vocal point of the scene.
*Silly rule. If it makes sense in the context of the story to have a character vomiting or crying, do so. Story trumps rules.*

8. No guns or gunplay. These have been used too much and would perhaps make it intensely hard or unbelievable to follow Rule #3.
*Silly rule. If it makes sense in the context of the story to have guns or gunplay, do so. Story trumps rules.*

9. Dialogue should be impressionistic not necessarily realistic. Talking in life and talking in stories are two different things. This doesn't mean to neglect dialect, but don't up play needless speech between two people without characterization or story movement coming into play. You don't have time to waste in a short story.
*Nothing specific to short stories here - unless this person believes that time can be wasted in novels. I sure hope that's not what's being suggested.*

10. "If you are ever tempted to put your head to the keyboard and laugh out loud at what you've just written, you probably shouldn't drink while you're writing."
*Nothing specific to short stories here.*

So a bit modern, but I felt these rules may help some people out as much as they have me. That being said, do you guys think these are good rules to follow? Any changes or debates on the usefulness of any particular rules?
*I think they're a waste of time.*

Also for anyone who is curious, my teacher's name is Toni Graham.
*Tsk. No need to name and shame *


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## JosephB (Dec 20, 2011)

I didn't notice where he said any of it was necessarily specific to short stories.


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## Rob (Dec 20, 2011)

JosephB said:


> I didn't notice where he said any of it was necessarily specific to short stories.



Is that in response to my post? Title of the thread is: _My Fiction Writing teacher's Top Ten List of things to Avoid in Short Stories_.


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## JosephB (Dec 20, 2011)

Yeah, it was a response to your post. And I saw what the title of the thread is too. He didn’t say that they didn’t apply to novels or that they applied ONLY to short stories. I don’t see what difference it makes or why you’d bother to repeat it five times.


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## Rob (Dec 20, 2011)

JosephB said:


> Yeah, it was a response to your post. And I saw what the title of the thread is too. He didn’t say that they didn’t apply to novels or that they applied ONLY to short stories. I don’t see what difference it makes or why you’d bother to repeat it five times.


The OP asked us for our opinions. I gave mine. Okay with you?


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## Baron (Dec 20, 2011)

Get back to the subject under discussion and avoid the personal remarks, please.


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## felix (Dec 20, 2011)

Rob said:


> The OP asked us for our opinions. I gave mine. Okay with you?



Could you please try and be a tad more polite? It's annoying to see rudeness splattered across the threads. 

But I agree with your first post entirely. Some of the rules have merit as loose principles for all writing, but do's/dont's have no place in writing. 

The only do/don't acceptable is probably 'Don't write a list of Do's/Dont's'.


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## JDegg (Dec 20, 2011)

Deleted by poster.


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## felix (Dec 20, 2011)

#7 and #8 make sense if you mean that a writer shouldn't have their characters vomit, cry and shoot somebody every five seconds, but as a general rule it is rather silly, as there are many situations in which having a character cry/vomit/kill is entirely justifiable. 

But I don't think that we're being pigheaded. Not intentionally, anyway. 
However, the idea of crying or vomiting making a character weak is, I hope, not your teacher's line of reasoning, because it's also rather silly, as people cry or vomit for various reasons all the time. 

You've stated that your teacher is an editor, but has he been a writer at any point? 
Rules for editing could stand up to some battering, perhaps, but rules for writing should be flimsy and very sweeping, if you have any at all.


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## Sam (Dec 20, 2011)

The problem, as with any list like this, is that most of it is just talking for talk's sake. I don't understand why people feel the need to create lists like this. Short stories with telling, cliches, and guns and death are published on a daily basis. That tells me there is nothing wrong with having a story with those elements present. 

I'm not for the merest second suggesting that you should in fact have a story with all ten of those things, but to rule them out from the get-go is a little much. In any story, the possibility of death should be present. Without any threat to the main character, is there any suspense? If s/he breezes through every situation without a scratch, it turns into a Steven Seagal flick. Boring.


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## Rob (Dec 20, 2011)

JDegg said:


> In defense of this list, we are talking about an undergraduate creative writing course. It should be mentioned I shortened up the rules a bit, which may have shifted some of the wording of these particular rules. As for people who are rather pig headedly against these rules, I'm curious how many read the rules and realized they broke some of them.


The first point to remember is that these are not rules, so it doesn't help when you keep calling them rules.



JDegg said:


> The purpose behind the vomitting/crying rule is that too much of it will cause a character to be weak. If this character is your protagonist, that may not sit well with the reader as the protagonist becomes weaker and you risk another character becoming stronger than your protagonist. In a piece of short fiction, this can have a disastrous effect on the interest of the reader.


This sort of extrapolation, from a character vomiting or crying to having a disastrous effect on the reader, is laughable. It's a feeble attempt to justify a non-existent rule, and is something that anyone writing short stories can safely ignore.



JDegg said:


> The correct wording of rules #7 (vomit/crying) and rule #8 (guns) is to "Try and avoid," as opposed to a blanket, "No" or "Don't". Again my wording in the attempt to not write the entire list ver batim.


You've just done what many have done before you. You took a piece of advice about not overdoing something and turned it into an absolute. You then posted it in a public forum for all to see and called it a rule, and attributed your own corrupt versions of the so-called rules to the original author. I'm sure you did so in good faith, with good intentions, but can you understand why that's an awful thing to do?



JDegg said:


> As it stands though... Toni Graham is a ficiton editor of a literary magazine and a workshop teacher, so if this list was at all inspired by seeing similar stories submitted over and over again, then I would sooner stand by this list than a group of writers that stubbornly went against the list because they believed they could do it.


Has it occurred to you that people have valid reasons for disagreeing with what you posted? Are you really arrogant enough to believe that you've discovered some kind of truth here that the rest of us have somehow missed for all these years?



JDegg said:


> Of course everyone here seems to know and understand already the golden rule of writing is that you CAN do ANYTHING you want. And the same applies to literary fiction to, the only difference being you have to be VERY GOOD to break some of these rules. Undergraduate Creative Writing Majors (like me) do tend to get babied by what we should and shouldn't include in a story, but its only the interest of developing good writing habits as opposed to falling into genre stories.


Honestly, it takes skill to write literary or genre fiction well. The skills may be applied differently, but each requires skill. Plenty of genre writers have 'good writing habits'. That kind of snobbery is misplaced. You have a lot to learn.



JDegg said:


> If genre is your area of expertise, by all means write and do better at it than I could. It is the difference, however, in what you write for. If you write to tell fascinating fantasy or sci-fi, by all means do so. For those of us who like the more realistic approaches and are more apt towards a stance on human life and that sort of thing, well... then these rules assist greatly.


No they don't. It's a poor list. Keep reading. Keep writing. Seek out other sources, and you'll find plenty of advice far more useful than the list you posted. Trust me.


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## Rob (Dec 20, 2011)

I take it this is the Toni Graham whose 'rules' you've posted:

Toni Graham

Does she know and approve of you posting them here, and is she aware that you changed the wording and therefore the meaning?


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## ScientistAsHero (Dec 20, 2011)

JDegg said:


> As it stands though... Toni Graham is a ficiton editor of a literary magazine and a workshop teacher, so if this list was at all inspired by seeing similar stories submitted over and over again, then I would sooner stand by this list than a group of writers that stubbornly went against the list because they believed they could do it.



You did ask for our opinions on whether or not we thought these were good rules or not. It's rude to reiterate twice in the same post that we are being stubborn and pig-headed. If you want to follow these points to the letter, I don't think anyone here much minds one way or another... but by you saying we're stubborn because we disagree with some of them seems kind of like you're just challenging us so you can prove the worth of this teacher. 

And while I believe that there is a commensurate amount of respect that one should have when they are considering the advice of professionals, I also tend to think that even professionals are just humans too -- they are going to sometimes be biased against certain things for less than objective reasons. If Stephen King himself handed me a list of writing "dos and dont's," I would still look over each one and weigh it to myself before I made a decision, not just accept his word as law and follow them all blindly without question. Might I be foolish for doing that? Maybe, but for every writing convention and guideline there's a person out there who's made either a fortune or a name for him/herself as an innovator by bending or breaking them.


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## Tiamat (Dec 20, 2011)

Lists like this tend to irritate me.  So no, I don't find it to be a very informative or useful bit of advice.  I've had stories published that have broken some of these rules.  But then again, like all writing rules, I think it should be pointed out that they're intended for beginners, in order to give them some guidelines to get them started.  Breaking the rules on purpose does not necessarily constitute good writing either.  It's the writers that can break them with style that get my vote.

If you want to follow these rules, go right ahead.  I wouldn't say that adhering to them would equate to writing bad fiction, but ask yourself this:  If you're writing a story about a person with a terminal illness, do you really think you're going to be able to avoid killing your protagonist and completing the happily-ever-after?  I'd say not, so write your damn story.  When you go back and edit, perhaps take this list into consideration, but only then, and only to the extent that it doesn't screw with the story itself.


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## Vertigo (Dec 20, 2011)

*sighs*

I look at this list and I think of some of the short stories I've read on the web and... to be honest, I get where a lot of this stuff is coming from. A lot of protagonists do die at the end of short stories, for really not much of a good reason; and having people break down in tears at the slightest things is poor character-handling. That being said, a lot of this stuff is certainly geared towards new-ish writers (students) who need some hard "don't do this" rules in order to get going in better directions. They are not, however, rules to live (and write) by once you've gotten your feet under you. I think (or at least, would like to think) that we've all written stuff that breaks a few of these "rules," but doesn't stink.


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## moderan (Dec 21, 2011)

JDegg said:


> Hey guys, figured I'd share this with you all, and feel free to give input.



Okay, I shall. I'll also disregard any previous commentary. You don't know me, so I'll include some info-I have a BA in journalism from a major US college. I have not as yet published any novels, but I have published over one hundred stories, poems, and articles on a professional basis under my own name and several others, and I have been through several creative writing courses, from grade-school through collegiate and post-collegiate levels. I've also taught a couple of classes.
I say all that not to toot my horn, but to establish some sort of context. If I was horn-tooting I'd still be naming titles and publications. Okay? Onward...



JDegg said:


> 1. No cliches. Rather obvious but nevertheless.



There's a reason why they're cliches. Go ahead and use them. Learn how to spin them in new ways. That's where the craft comes in. It isn't at _all_ obvious. The obvious is your enemy as a writer.


JDegg said:


> 2. Do not change tense midstory or point of view midparagraph.


Why not? If the story calls for it, then by all means do so. A tense or pov change can add drama if handled correctly. But do it for a reason, don't just start having Jane Sue tell the story because Mary has sniffles.


JDegg said:


> 3. Don't kill your characters. It often only serves to cut short their arcs. Definitely DO NOT KILL YOUR PROTAGONIST.


I've written things where the protagonist is dead before the piece begins. If the story says that a character has to die-the needs of the story as a whole come first. Some characters are gonna have short arcs.


JDegg said:


> 4. No coincidences. I.e. your budding film student doesn't run into Steven Spielberg and get a once in a lifetime opportunity to hit it big.


Ahhh, phooey. It _does_ happen. An unknown comes to public notice and is no longer unknown. Rosario Dawson. That's but one example. I like coincidences. I think they're a remarkable way to show a story and under-rated as a mechanism to keep the story-clock's gears turning.


JDegg said:


> 5. Show, don't tell (I thought we were avoiding cliches). Now in practice I'll say this isn't a golden rule, but finding the correct put telling into practice can be difficult.


This is one of the most-quoted "rules" of all. All it does is to warn against rampant infodumping. It is generally best if you paint the picture and let your audience behold the end result, but not always.


JDegg said:


> 6. Do not coach the reader. In short, don't use lines like, "He chuckled to himself," don't tell your reader what emotion they or the characters should be feeling. To add to this, don't use sound words. I.e. Ahah! or Hahaha! or anything along those lines. A character's actions and responses should be characterized in their dialogue or following actions, not through the use of sounds or coaching exposition.


Coach the reader all you want, if that's your goal. Reader manipulation is part of your bag of tricks as a writer. Using "sound words" is perfectly fine. There's some truth in the last sentence, but it's buried in awkwardness.


JDegg said:


> 7. Don't use vomiting or crying. If they are there they cannot be the vocal point of the scene.


What if your story is about getting home from a three-day bender to find that your St. Bernard has taken a crap in the hallway while your kids have peeled all of the onions and left them on the kitchen floor? Do you mean "focal" point, instead of "vocal" point? Why not? There's no reason why any action cannot be the focal point of a scene.


JDegg said:


> 8. No guns or gunplay. These have been used too much and would perhaps make it intensely hard or unbelievable to follow Rule #3.


Really? That's just stupid. My only objection to the use of guns and gunplay is that they're written by people who generally don't understand how guns and gunplay work. 


JDegg said:


> 9. Dialogue should be impressionistic not necessarily realistic. Talking in life and talking in stories are two different things. This doesn't mean to neglect dialect, but don't up play needless speech between two people without characterization or story movement coming into play. You don't have time to waste in a short story.


You don't have time to waste in _any_ story. Dialogue is a way to move your plot along, not a timewaster, S. King notwithstanding. It's a great way to establish character.


JDegg said:


> 10. "If you are ever tempted to put your head to the keyboard and laugh out loud at what you've just written, you probably shouldn't drink while you're writing."


This is the most inane of this inane list. There are times when I'm not only tempted, but I do so. If a line can make me spontaneously erupt into laughter, it's probably a keeper.




JDegg said:


> So a bit modern, but I felt these rules may help some people out as much as they have me. That being said, do you guys think these are good rules to follow? Any changes or debates on the usefulness of any particular rules?
> 
> Also for anyone who is curious, my teacher's name is Toni Graham.


Your teacher has a fairly impressive list of publication credits, all of them in "little" or "literary" magazines (save the books). I don't see where these hard and fast rules apply to any other branch of fiction. I don't really see where they apply at all but I'll say that literary fiction has its own sort of continuum and conventions.
Here are my rules:

1) *Be thorough*. Think through all of the implications of your plot before you set pencil to paper. Your writing will be far more organized as a result.
2) *Make it interesting*. Give your subject a new spin.
3) *Feel it*. Be certain that you have an emotional reaction to the material commensurate with what you are trying to evoke in the reader.
4) *Develop your character*. Even Uatu the Watcher has his moments.

Additionally:
Make the language work in terms of rhythm and cadence. Read it out loud to yourself. Make sure it flows. Shorter sentences and more terse language during action sequences.

That's it.

I like to include (at least) one _wtf_? Or _What did he just say_? moment per 650 words (roughly the wordcount of a printed page). I also follow the Chicago rules of style, even though what I do isn't journalism. Most of the writers who I grew up admiring were originally print journalists and I retain that early influence.
What you need to learn how to do is to suspend disbelief. It would help if you learned the basics; spelling, grammar, punctuation, and had some versatility (arguable, but I think that a writer should be able to write any sort of thing. I don't believe in "romance" or "mystery" writers any more than I believe in "lead" or "rhythm" guitarists. You're a writer, you're a guitarist).
Good for you?


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## Kyle R (Dec 21, 2011)

Ouch. My sympathy to the original poster.

You've posted a list of writing guidelines given to you by your teacher, and it was subsequently torn to shreds by the users of this forum. Definately a buzzkill.

But, seeing the "rules" as quoted in some other posts, I'd say they provide good advice to help novice writers avoid many common literary pratfalls. It's true that many, if not all, of these "rules" can be broken, but it helps to understand why they were recommended in the first place.

As for your original question ("_do you guys think these are good rules to follow?_"), in the context of your course, I would say: *Yes*. These are good rules to follow, especially since your teacher has made it clear that this is what she is looking for in your writing.

In the context of writing in general (outside of your course), I would say: *No*. These are good rules to think about, but not necessarily to follow.

As far as writing goes in general, I would say the more you free yourself from the constriction of rules and guidelines, the more possibilities you have to create memorable fiction. They are intented to be used as teaching tools, and nothing more.

You tell a beginning writer: "avoid cliches, and shootouts, and killing your characters". Why? Because the beginning writer will most likely execute these things poorly. In the future, though, when the writer has experience and skill, the rule may no longer apply.

I learned how to do a standing backflip from a gymnastics instructor once. I wanted to start out by just jumping and trying it right away. He told me, "No. First, you learn the backwards sommersault." He had me practice it over and over again. I felt like a fool, rolling around on the ground. Then, he had me practice jumping straight up and bringing my knees to my chest. Over, and over, and over. Finally, when I couldn't take the embarassment anymore, he had me combine the two. And -- whatta yaknow? -- I executed my first standing backflip.

Sometimes you have to learn to tuck and roll before you can go around whirling and twirling with creative abandon. So, I give this list a thumbs-up. For its intended purpose (highlighting common novice pitfalls to avoid), it performs well.


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## Foxee (Dec 21, 2011)

JDegg said:


> The environment here is insanely hostile. Due to various reasons I'm taking this list off. I thought it would be interesting to share. And I've certainly learned a few things.


Easy now. I think Kyle made some decent points here and I'll add a few of my own.

You've gotten a lot of good input in this thread and it has not been hostile to you but rather to the concept that a list of guidelines should be treated as hard and fast rules. I'm not sure if your teacher presented this list as rules or simply (as your title suggests) 'things to avoid'. This list is what the teacher doesn't want to see in the short stories submitted in the class. My theory as to why is that the teacher wants to see everyone move further away from a lot of first-time-writer attempts. There is a lot on that list that strikes me as something that new writers would try to do with wearying regularity until someone jarred them out of that rut. 

However, this forum isn't the class so you've gotten a valuable insight into how you don't want to take a list like this (that I don't think is meant as a rules list anyway) and turn it into something that it's not. Just use it as advice (and teacher guidelines) and later don't be afraid to kill a protagonist if you have a story where perhaps that's just the beginning of his story. Don't treat the 'no crying' rule as something that might keep you from writing a story where the tears are central to the plot. 

Essentially what I hope you'll take away from this thread is that people will not always agree with you, they won't always agree with your authorities, and that, in writing, be fearless.


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## Rob (Dec 21, 2011)

Just for interest, here's something James N Frey said in his introduction to _How To Write Damn Good Fiction_:


There’s another way in which this book differs from books for beginners: it does not lay down pseudo-rules as holy writ. Most books on fictional techniques are written by creative-writing teachers who find, for example, that their beginning students can’t control viewpoint, so they make a pseudo-rule that “you can’t change viewpoint within the scene,” or that their students are often too pontifical or didactic in their work, so they make a rule that “the author must remain invisible.” Fledgling authors who can’t make the narrative voice fit their fictional material are often told, “First-person narrative is more restrictive than third-person, but it’s more intimate, so if you want greater intimacy you better stick with first.”

Such admonitions and pseudo-rules are total bunkum and following such rules is like trying to be an Olympic swimmer with an anchor tied to your foot.

Actually, pseudo-rules are taught to beginners to make life easier for the creative-writing teacher. The pseudo-rules help beginning authors appear to be in control of their material. I was taught a host of pseudo-rules by some of the finest creative-writing teachers in America; I believed in the pseudo-rules fervently, and in turn, years later, inflicted them on my students. Now, I realize there’s a difference between pseudo-rules and effective principles: pseudo-rules are coffins; effective principles are cannons into which you stuff the gunpowder of your talent.​


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## ScientistAsHero (Dec 21, 2011)

JDegg said:


> The environment here is insanely hostile. Due to various reasons I'm taking this list off. I thought it would be interesting to share. And I've certainly learned a few things.



What, that when you ask for people's opinions on something on a forum, sometimes they share them with you?


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## JosephB (Dec 21, 2011)

I don’t think much of these lists. And really, I don’ think much of people’s opinions of lists, or of any general opinions on writing that don’t refer to specific examples. If someone reads something of mine and can point out to me why in some specific way that showing might work better than telling, or that some character is cliché, or that the POV is fuzzy or whatever – that helps me. Or it  might be something I prefer to leave behind. Who knows. Either way, it’s something I can consider and maybe it’s something I can carry forward. The rest of it is almost always too vague or general to be of any value – because there are ALWAYS exceptions to rules, guileless or just general opinions. Some of it’s fine for the sake of conversation, but a lot of it can be safely ignored -- which is what I usually end up doing.


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## moderan (Dec 21, 2011)

I don't think much of lists, either, or spend much time thinking about lists, especially "these lists", by which I am understanding that Joe means the lists on this page, including the original and no-longer-extant list that was taken down because of the insane hostility on this site, which I take to mean my rebuttal of the original list since that all happened after I posted it.
Happens sometimes. Sorry if I came off as hostile. Insane I can deal with. The rest is true, though. KyleColorado makes the good point that the list is what the person doing the grading wants to see...however this is not the way the whole was presented.
So. Opinions. You know what they smell like.


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## JosephB (Dec 21, 2011)

Heh. Not all opinions. I remember a time when your opinion helped me. It was a story about a woman who was being assaulted on the beach -- a homeless man she'd befriended came to her rescue -- cracked her attacker's skull with a piece of driftwood and killed him. There was a plausibility issue with the subsequent investigation that you pointed out to me. As far as value is concerned, that's what I'm talking about. That's an opinion I could consider and apply to make the story better.

90% of what I've learned here has been from critiques on my work -- writing them and reading crits of other stories. I've taken a creative writing class that included workshopping, and it was the same. The teacher never presented us with this kind of list, although she mentioned some of those things. But she did it in within the context of what we had written. That's what makes the difference, because what might be cliche in one story might work in another. It's all relative to the specific piece of writing.

I posted a story once that began with the old cliche of someone waking up. I'd considered it carefully, and still thought it was the best way to go. I was waiting to get called on it -- after many comments, it never happened. Something about how I wrote it worked. I read it recently and I still think it does. And people vomit and cry and play with guns in my stories too -- so whatever.

PS -- in the story I first mentioned above, there is both vomiting and crying. I might go back and change it -- swap out the driftwood for a .45 -- that way I can work in all three no-no's.


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## Anders Ämting (Dec 21, 2011)

I personally don't believe there are such a thing as "rules" to writing. I you manage to produce a good story, by which I mean a story people actually enjoy reading, then your methods are correct for you. I mean, sure, there's stuff that' plain common sense, like not messing around with tense and so on. But if you write your story ticking off items on a list, you are probably doing it wrong, and if you evaluate someone else's story by ticking off items on a list, you are _definitely _doing it wrong. 

I do avoid killing characters, though, and tend to opperate on what I affectionally think of as "the Leon Rule". (No women, no kids.) But like the titular assassin, that's just something I do for personal reasons, and I don't pretend it makes for better writing or that everyone should write that way.



Sam W said:


> I don't understand why people feel the need to create lists like this.



Because a certain type of people want simple and neatly lined up rules to follow rather then trusting their own judgement. The reasoning, it seems, is that writing good literature is just a matter of sticking to a formula, like baking a pie. Plus, having a list of things one definitely should never do is _a lot _easier then figuring out what works best for each given story.

The reason this rarely works for anyone except the person who put together the list in the first place is because all writers have different methods and tend to prefer different kinds of stories, so everyone writes in their own individual way.


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## Foxee (Dec 21, 2011)

The specific purpose behind this list appears to have been to help a beginning group of writers to think beyond the first idea that might occur to them. Often a beginning writer thinks that 'conflict' can be mainly achieved by shooting someone or other violent/melodramatic plot points. The list was to guide the class, I don't think it was meant to be ironclad rules for the future.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Dec 21, 2011)

Rob was foresighted enough to copy your list before you took it down, so I'll be quoting him and using his response style.


1. No cliches. Rather obvious but nevertheless.
*Yes and no.  Nothing is truly original anymore, which means cliches form the basis of every story.  I expect the goal here, since short stories tend to use a "setup, twist" format, is to avoid the sort of "he was dead the whole time" conclusion, and that's good advice.  However, following this to the letter can lead to stale writing as the author actively tries to avoid any and all cliches.  As usual, follow the rule's spirit; don't take it literally.*

2. Do not change tense midstory or point of view midparagraph.
*I don't see anything wrong with this advice.*

3. Don't kill your characters. It often only serves to cut short their arcs. Definitely DO NOT KILL YOUR PROTAGONIST.
*Sometimes you want short arcs, especially in a SHORT story.  Besides, characters are tools.  If their death serves the story, kill them off.  I've written characters whose only point was to die, so that other characters could develop.  And if your protagonist's death serves the story, he shouldn't be immune.  He shouldn't have "plot armor."  Kill whoever needs killing.*

4. No coincidences. I.e. your budding film student doesn't run into Steven Spielberg and get a once in a lifetime opportunity to hit it big.
*Fully agree.  If you need coincidences to advance the plot, it's not a very strong plot.*

5. Show, don't tell (I thought we were avoiding cliches). Now in practice I'll say this isn't a golden rule, but finding the correct put telling into practice can be difficult.
*Yup.*

6. Do not coach the reader. In short, don't use lines like, "He chuckled to himself," don't tell your reader what emotion they or the characters should be feeling. To add to this, don't use sound words. I.e. Ahah! or Hahaha! or anything along those lines. A character's actions and responses should be characterized in their dialogue or following actions, not through the use of sounds or coaching exposition.
*I don't like this.  People laugh in real life.  Why shouldn't they laugh in stories? And what's the alternative, having your character say, "That was funny!"?  Whatever happened to show, don't tell?*

7. Don't use vomiting or crying. If they are there they cannot be the focal point of the scene.
*No sense in this one.  Sometimes people vomit.  A lot of times people cry.  If your characters can't do either, they're not good characters.*

8. No guns or gunplay. These have been used too much and would perhaps make it intensely hard or unbelievable to follow Rule #3.
*Guns and gunplay can make sense.  Let your characters use them if the story calls for it.*

9. Dialogue should be impressionistic not necessarily realistic. Talking in life and talking in stories are two different things. This doesn't mean to neglect dialect, but don't up play needless speech between two people without characterization or story movement coming into play. You don't have time to waste in a short story.
*This isn't restricted to dialogue.  ANYTHING that doesn't move the story forward or develop the characters should be cut out.  Otherwise, why is it in your story?
*
10. "If you are ever tempted to put your head to the keyboard and laugh out loud at what you've just written, you probably shouldn't drink while you're writing."
*This doesn't make any sense.

*


JDegg said:


> The environment here is insanely hostile. Due to various reasons I'm taking this list off. I thought it would be interesting to share. And I've certainly learned a few things.



Oh, it was certainly interesting.  However, you'll find that people who are passionate about writing tend to have a disdain for how-to lists.  Rules were meant to be broken, and good writing succeeds by transcending simple, hard-and-fast guidelines like these.

There was another thread questioning whether or not writing can be taught, and I think this helps prove that it can't.  As long as you're teaching, you're simply offering potential authors a set of _don't_s.  Good writing, coming from natural talent, is more about the _do_s.


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## Anders Ämting (Dec 21, 2011)

Foxee said:


> The specific purpose behind this list appears to have been to help a beginning group of writers to think beyond the first idea that might occur to them. Often a beginning writer thinks that 'conflict' can be mainly achieved by shooting someone or other violent/melodramatic plot points. The list was to guide the class, I don't think it was meant to be ironclad rules for the future.



If you ask me, giving a bunch of fresh beginners a list of things not to write is still a terrible idea. It's very easy to give new writers the misguided impression that they are, in fact, rules you should always stick to and that may turn out to be a hard habit to break.


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## Foxee (Dec 21, 2011)

Which is why it might have been wiser for the teacher to explain that wasn't the case, I agree with that. It doesn't change the purpose of the list.


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## Anders Ämting (Dec 21, 2011)

Foxee said:


> Which is why it might have been wiser for the teacher to explain that wasn't the case, I agree with that. It doesn't change the purpose of the list.



I don't see what differance that makes. Like I said, even when meaning well, lists like this give a bad impression to impressionable beginners, and while I never got a chance to read the opening post, the title of this thread being "Top Ten List of things to avoid in Short Stories" implies at least one of the students walked away with that impression.

This is clearly a counter-productive and terrible way of teaching new authors to expand their thinking, is what I'm basically saying.


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## Anders Ämting (Dec 21, 2011)

On a closer look, I found this bit that I must have missed the first time:



JDegg said:


> As it stands though... Toni Graham is a ficiton editor of a literary magazine and a workshop teacher, so if this list was at all inspired by seeing similar stories submitted over and over again, then I would sooner stand by this list than a group of writers that stubbornly went against the list because they believed they could do it.
> 
> Of course everyone here seems to know and understand already the golden rule of writing is that you CAN do ANYTHING you want. And the same applies to literary fiction to, the only difference being you have to be VERY GOOD to break some of these rules. Undergraduate Creative Writing Majors (like me) do tend to get babied by what we should and shouldn't include in a story, but its only the interest of developing good writing habits as opposed to falling into genre stories.



So, basically, this is stuff Tony Graham keeps seeing in terrible short stories and has probably grown rather sick of. Which is actually totally fair; if I had to read bad stories where people kept vomiting I'd probably ask everyone to cut down on the vomiting it as well. I still disagree it motivates creating a list like this, though. 

I think the thing about this type of advice that rubs me the wrong way is that eventually it can all be boiled down to: "Don't be a bad writer," or "try to avoid bad writing." You _can _totally write a good story containing these elements, if you have a decent level of skill. I suspect Toni Graham is more then competent enough to pull that off, in fact. (Though, I'd like to point out to JDegg that no matter what genre you write, you always have to be really good to pull off really good writing.)

I just feel that just because inexperienced writers tend to resort to these thing a lot, it doesn't mean telling them to avoid them is a contructive approach to the problem.


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## Sam (Dec 21, 2011)

Writing is subjective. What one person likes, another will vehemently dislike. The fact that Toni Graham made a list based on things s/he had grown tired of would suggest that said list is not the collective opinion of a group of short story aficionados, but instead something of a diatribe borne from years of frustration with reading similar short stories. It is for that reason that I said this list is flawed. 

I am a published author, with an BA honours degree in English literature. If I were to make a similar list based on my experiences alone, I would open myself to the same ridicule that has been evident from the initial response to this thread. Credentials are irrelevant when one inserts personal opinion into a document designed to aid others. It makes it sound like one is the foremost authority on the subject. A better way to present this list would have been to avoid any use of definitive terms like 'don't'. They _don't _have a place in writing. The person who says something can't be done is invariably corrected by the person who's done it.


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## Foxee (Dec 21, 2011)

Anders Ämting said:


> I just feel that just because inexperienced writers tend to resort to these thing a lot, it doesn't mean telling them to avoid them is a contructive approach to the problem.


It is not constructive to tell someone that you're teaching to just do whatever they want, either. You don't have to agree with it, I doubt Toni really gives a flip what any of us here thinks.


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## Walkio (Dec 21, 2011)

The most important rule I keep in mind when writing is 'OMIT NEEDLESS WORDS', which doesn't make this list but should.


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## moderan (Dec 21, 2011)

Foxee said:


> It is not constructive to tell someone that you're teaching to just do whatever they want, either. You don't have to agree with it, I doubt Toni really gives a flip what any of us here thinks.



It's her class. Likewise. I can understand being tired of seeing people vomit on their pages. I just think that list is lazy teaching and wrong besides. I reiterate:
1) *Be thorough*. Think through all of the implications of your  plot before you set pencil to paper. Your writing will be far more  organized as a result.
2) *Make it interesting*. Give your subject a new spin.
3) *Feel it*. Be certain that you have an emotional reaction to the material commensurate with what you are trying to evoke in the reader.
4) *Develop your character*. Even Uatu the Watcher has his moments.

That's what I used as a guide, both of the times I had the opportunity to teach a writing class. No dos, no don'ts. Just write. If you really want to improve, send your stuff off to professional editors and pass on the classes. Lay in a supply of skin-thickener.
It's about perspective.


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## Walkio (Dec 21, 2011)

I think you can get an awful lot from the likes of Strunk and White's THE ELEMENTS OF STYLE and Stephen King's ON WRITING.


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## moderan (Dec 21, 2011)

Walkio said:


> I think you can get an awful lot from the likes of Strunk and White's THE ELEMENTS OF STYLE and Stephen King's ON WRITING.


Among other things. You'll get a lot of opinions, pro and con, about those too. I maintain that experience is the best teacher. Go out and experience stuff, write about it, get writing experience. Any other method is ultimately a waste of time. IMO


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## movieman (Dec 21, 2011)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> 4. No coincidences. I.e. your budding film student doesn't run into Steven Spielberg and get a once in a lifetime opportunity to hit it big.
> *Fully agree.  If you need coincidences to advance the plot, it's not a very strong plot.*



But there's nothing wrong with starting a story with a coincidence. 

Why shouldn't we write a story which starts with a film student who runs into Spielberg and gets a once in a life time opportunity to hit it big? The problem is when your film student is a failure all through the story until they bump into Spielberg who hires them to write his next movie; THE END.


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## Kyle R (Dec 21, 2011)

The trick is to make something unexpected feel like it was inevitable all along.


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## Olly Buckle (Dec 21, 2011)

moderan said:


> It's her class. Likewise. I can understand being tired of seeing people vomit on their pages. I just think that list is lazy teaching and wrong besides. I reiterate:
> 1) *Be thorough*. Think through all of the implications of your  plot before you set pencil to paper. Your writing will be far more  organized as a result.
> 2) *Make it interesting*. Give your subject a new spin.
> 3) *Feel it*. Be certain that you have an emotional reaction to the material commensurate with what you are trying to evoke in the reader.
> ...



I like this reply because to me the difference is it is telling you what you can, rather than can't do. When you tell someone a negative you introduce them to the idea, If you are told "Don't write about a dog chasing a cat" you have to start by getting a dog hammering after a cat out of your head, if you are told "Write about chickens" you simply go straight ahead, good teaching tells you how to, not how not to.


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## Olly Buckle (Dec 22, 2011)

KyleColorado said:


> The trick is to make something unexpected feel like it was inevitable all along.


That's good if you can manage to come up with the unexpected, another approach is to make the inevitable seem unexpected.


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## Walkio (Dec 22, 2011)

moderan said:


> Among other things. You'll get a lot of opinions, pro and con, about those too. I maintain that experience is the best teacher. Go out and experience stuff, write about it, get writing experience. Any other method is ultimately a waste of time. IMO



Yes, I agree that the best thing to do as a budding writer is read a lot and write a lot.


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## moderan (Dec 22, 2011)

Walkio said:


> Yes, I agree that the best thing to do as a budding writer is read a lot and write a lot.


That's good, but that isn't what I said. In order to communicate novel experiences, one must have some. Don't be afraid to live some life too. You're going to be spending most of your time sitting in a chair wrestling with words. Get you some existence.
Verisimilitude. Catch it.


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