# "Literary Maneuvers" Coffee Shop



## bdcharles

~ * ~

A Space For You To

*Write! Converse! Suggest! Prompt! Argue about all things Literary Manoeuvres!*


_- As You See Fit_ -

~ * ~

​
​
Welcome one and all. This page  supercedes *the last thread* which very sadly stopped updating the "what's  new" feed some while ago but it is with gladness in our hearts that we  say: The old thread is dead! Long live this new page! And that we may yet  merge the 2 but til then, let this be the nexus, brain, and creative scratchpad of your monthly "Literary Maneuvers" Fiction Competition. Write on!












​


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## Terry D

Let's hope the new Coffee Shop will bring with it a renewed enthusiasm for the LM competition itself.


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## bdcharles

Let's get some more prompts and seconds in, and I'll put the poll up  tomorrow evening. For those that don't know, we come up with a prompt  for the Literary Manouevers short fiction comp, and second the ones we  want to be added into a poll. Then we vote, and write a short piece in  the comp on that prompt.


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## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Prompt suggestions:

  Dying Breath
  Gas Station Prophet
  The Laughing Soldier


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## -xXx-

painting the sky
fulcrumium
window box


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## Non Serviam

Extreme environments.

Essay Concerning Certain Unusual Life Forms of Lake Vostok
The Day Vesuvius Consumed Pompeii
On Moonmist Moor


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## moderan

Second "window box"
Also "Essay Concerning Certain Unusual Life Forms of Lake Vostok"


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## bdcharles

Second:


> Gas Station Prophet
> Fulcrumium


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## bdcharles

The *poll is up* for June's "Literary Manouevres" short fiction competition. And can I just say that I am loving the prompt choices, and am certain that whatever comes out of this will be awesome 

Just vote for one though if you could please. I don't know what I did wrong but it seems to have gone all multi-choice on me...


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## bdcharles

May scores will be right along ...


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## PiP

voted


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## SueC

I voted - you?


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## aj47

I also voted.


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## moderan

voted


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## Cran

bdcharles said:


> The *poll is up* for June's "Literary Manouevres" short fiction competition. And can I just say that I am loving the prompt choices, and am certain that whatever comes out of this will be awesome
> 
> Just vote for one though if you could please. I don't know what I did wrong but it seems to have gone all multi-choice on me...


There is a box under the options which sets the maximum number of votes a member can have in the poll - 0=unlimited. 

Currently, that box is set at 3. This forum's mod, any global, super, or admin can edit that to 1 if you wish.


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## Plasticweld

voted


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## bdcharles

Ok we have a front runner but I'm not going to tell you what it is. Meanwhile, can you judge? Will you judge? Should you? You must judge. No, really, I insist. Just you wait, you'll see, it'll be absolutely _darling_.


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## moderan

I can, and will.


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## Non Serviam

Yup, I'll judge if you like.


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## bdcharles

Today I received the following dispatch from one of the LM field offices:



*Re: Literary Manouevers*

It has come to our attention that there is a clear front runner in the voting STOP Therefore we advise informally closing the poll and opening the new LM today STOP This will help keep us on timescales STOP Please confirm when done STOP


I have elected to accede to their wishes and hereby declare the June "Literary Maneuvers" Fiction Competition open! I have two judges, and can accommodate two more.


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## moderan

Awesome. Whatever happened to the May scores? Enquiring minds want to know, surely.


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## bdcharles

The May scores will be right along. Apologies, the delay is with me there. Will post this weekend


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## bdcharles

Scores for May's "Literary Manoeuvers"? Why, yes. Yes, we do. Who's asking?


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## bdcharles

*


Last Chance!*

~
​
This is it. This is your last chance. You have but two - _two!_ - days to enter this month's Literary Manouevers competition. Not one, and certainly not three. You must enter; no choice. The lives of millions depend on your participation.[SUP]*1*[/SUP]













[SUP]1[/SUP] The above was found printed on torn shreds of what appeared to be the same newspaper, drifting in the wind outside gas stations serving the towns of Vitypole, Flectalium, and Twitte.


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## bdcharles

*~ Fin ~ *


​_That is IT. Your time is UP. It is much too late for any STRAGGLERS._​

Judges are busy reviewing your Submissions and assigning your Scores; upon receipt of Same I shall attempt to collate them into a meaningless jumble of Data, whereafter and subsequent to which, and being pursuant of the Rules, we shall ourselves declare a Victor, whose work will be celebrated with the popping of a proper Cork, issuing from the Neck of a standard Bottle containing a moderate Measure of sparkling Wine.

As an Epilogue to this Event we shall now re-start the proceeedings of generating a List of suitable Prompts, and will begin voting on Them.

This process to continue henceforth 'til Time endeth us All.​ 

~
​


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## bdcharles

Okay, prompts:

Suggest:
The Pleasure-Scales
Books resonate secrets
People are different shapes


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## godofwine

Prompts:

Stephen King's Mind
Death Before Dishonor


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## SueC

Suggestions for July:

It was a day like this, when . . . 

The sound of the train was getting closer

What does he(she) see, when he(she) looks at me


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## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Second:
Death Before Dishonor
The Pleasure-Scales

Suggest:
Dying Breath
Torn in Three
The Scythe


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## bdcharles

Second:



> Torn in Three
> The Scythe


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## H.Brown

Road to nowhere...
Castles in the clouds
fishtank politics


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## Plasticweld

I second "Death before Dishonor"


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## Phil Istine

I second 'road to nowhere'

and I'll raise you a

*dream dealer*


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## aj47

I'd like to suggest:

Given time


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## Candervalle

I second Terry D's Wall of Heads photo #2.


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## Candervalle

Its been a while since the last photo prompt, hasn't it?


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## aj47

Candervalle said:


> Its been a while since the last photo prompt, hasn't it?



I think you're correct.  I don't like these as I'm dealing with a heavy disadvantage.  And I've said it.  I'm done talking about it.


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## bdcharles

astroannie said:


> I think you're correct.  I don't like these as I'm dealing with a heavy disadvantage.  And I've said it.  I'm done talking about it.



For my understanding, is that because you use text to speech annie? Just trying to think of how these can conceivably be incorporated.


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## bdcharles

Second:



Terry D said:


> #1 Portrait of a Voodoo Queen   View attachment 22150



Second:



H.Brown said:


> Castles in the clouds
> fishtank politics



Terry where did you get those pics?


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## Terry D

bdcharles said:


> Terry where did you get those pics?



The first two were the result of a Google search for 'strange wall images' or something like that. The third (the door) is a photo I took about a year ago.


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## PiP

Hi Guys, it's better if we use our own graphics. Others could me subject to copyright.


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## Terry D

PiP said:


> Hi Guys, it's better if we use our own graphics. Others could me subject to copyright.



As long as the image itself isn't reproduced, or sold, but only used as an inspiration for other work, it falls under the 'fair use' doctrine.


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## PiP

Terry D said:


> As long as the image itself isn't reproduced, or sold, but only used as an inspiration for other work, it falls under the 'fair use' doctrine.



_Please keep in mind that *stock photo services, creative commons licenses and public domain repositories of images are not subject to fair use* due to the rights they carry.
Stock photo services require you to pay for a license, creative commons licenses confer the right to use an image under certain circumstances and public domain images are not subject to copyright in the first place.

_https://www.socialmediaexaminer.com/copyright-fair-use-and-how-it-works-for-online-images/

and

https://sarafhawkins.com/copyright-online-photo-etiquette/

This is not a fun post in the lounge this is a WF Challenge. I'm not 100% sure and to be honest I'd rather not take the risk


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## Terry D

I've removed the photos. Just in case.


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## Pluralized

Prompties:

Bullet-Peep-Hole
Mullet-Sleep-Pole
Bucket-Screech-Mole
Pluck-It-Sheep-Soul
Warden! I Want My Own Cell


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## Candervalle

I've recreated Terry D's Wall of Heads photo. It's all original, and don't worry, WF has my full permission to use this image.


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## Phil Istine

OK.  How about the verbal prompt:

wall of heads


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## PiP

Candervalle said:


> I've recreated Terry D's Wall of Heads photo. It's all original, and don't worry, WF has my full permission to use this image.
> 
> View attachment 22169



Heads like ... like the scalps the Indians took as trophies and pinned to a wall? This idea could have legs! Love the drawing Cand, thank you


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## bdcharles

Last day of prompts and seconds, folks. I'll put a poll up tomorrow.


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## Non Serviam

Second:-

Pluralized
Warden! I Want My Own Cell


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## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Is it a violation of copyright to use a song title as a prompt? If not, I suggest:

Dead Boys Don't Cry


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## aj47

I believe it's past the deadline or I'd second.   Titles can't be copyrighted.


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## bdcharles

astroannie said:


> I believe it's past the deadline or I'd second.   Titles can't be copyrighted.



I'll add it. Sorry - mad weekend


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## bdcharles

ok voting is open, and it is here...


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## bdcharles

Oh ... who wants to judge (_you do, you do_)*



_* to the tune of 'Poison Arrow' by ABC_


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## moderan

Not this time. I have 350+ stories to read this month.


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## bdcharles

moderan said:


> Not this time. I have 350+ stories to read this month.



No probs


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## Plasticweld

You can add me as a judge for next one.


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## SueC

Ill be a judge this time, BD


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## bdcharles

Last 24h to cast your votes.

And scores from June will be in forthwith...


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## bdcharles

July comp is up so - go dazzle your judges prosaically.

Good luck


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## godofwine

You guys always pick the wackiest of prompts. Last I looked, Death before dishonor was winning, so I spun the Price Is Right wheel in my mind and landed on a story Direction. 

Now, Dead Boys Don't Cry... okay. I spun the wheel again, waiting for Brad Paisley to come on stage tonight, and now I have my story Direction. Too bad the rains came, Brad puts on a good show. I'll start on it this weekend


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## Plasticweld

Does anyone have a problem if as a a judge,  post an entry not to be scored.    I can't think of a more difficult prompt.  The challenge of trying to write something would be interesting


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## bdcharles

Plasticweld said:


> Does anyone have a problem if as a a judge,  post an entry not to be scored.    I can't think of a more difficult prompt.  The challenge of trying to write something would be interesting



I think as a judge, your entry would not be scored anyway. But I definitely want to see what you come up with


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## H.Brown

I'll also help judge bd if you'll have me.


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## SueC

Any word on June?


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## bdcharles

H.Brown said:


> I'll also help judge bd if you'll have me.



Fantastic, thank you



SueC said:


> Any word on June?



Got one set of scores still outstanding; think it's a "life getting in the way" situation


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## godofwine

bdcharles said:


> Got one set of scores still outstanding; think it's a "life getting in the way" situation



Well, get it out of the way, lol.


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## aj47

... I'm working on something, might have it up tomorrow or the next day..


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## bdcharles

astroannie said:


> ... I'm working on something, might have it up tomorrow or the next day..



Supercool!


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## aj47

It took me awhile to link because I had to dash off to work (then I did it in an incognito window).


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## SueC

Any word from June? We miss seeing her.


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## bdcharles

*Scores*. Scores are so great, it's true, they're from June, they're so great, I'm not even lying.


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## SueC

Thanks, bd


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## Dormouse

Can I ask for clarification on the closing date for the July LM? Is it Thursday the 19th or Saturday the 21st?


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## SueC

*This competition will close on:Saturday, the 19th July at 11:59:59 PM, BST time.

*Ooops! I see now why you asked Dormouse. Sorry. I guess BDCharles will have to take the reins on this one.


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## bdcharles

Dormouse said:


> Can I ask for clarification on the closing date for the July LM? Is it Thursday the 19th or Saturday the 21st?





SueC said:


> *This competition will close on:Saturday, the 19th July at 11:59:59 PM, BST time.
> 
> *Ooops! I see now why you asked Dormouse. Sorry. I guess BDCharles will have to take the reins on this one.



Sorry, sorry. I keep getting those 2 dates mixed up. I've set it for Sat 21st now.

Sorry.


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## Harper J. Cole

So, bdcharles has asked me to manage things here while he is away on holiday.

A reminder that the deadline for this contest is today, at 11:59:59 PM, BST time. That's a little under 5 hours from now, so late entrants will have to hurry!

HJC


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## Harper J. Cole

The July contest is now *closed*! The judges will have your scores for you soonish, but how about some August prompt suggestions in the meantime? Here's couple to get you started ...



Woman from the Void
What's in the box?


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## aj47

Are you my lawyer?

Illicit chocolate

Don't cross those wires


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## sigmadog

Some theme offerings…



Did you hear that?
Wait! What?
The Agony of Defeat
Torn From the Deadlines
Brooms Are for Clean Sweeps


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## Jonthom

The Red Star

Good spirits

The crumbling parchment

The day of the flag

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## PiP

The Rumour Mill 
The Last Day on Earth
Tram 28


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## aj47

Harper J. Cole said:


> Woman from the Void





sigmadog said:


> The Agony of Defeat
> Brooms Are for Clean Sweeps





Jonthom said:


> Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk





PiP said:


> The Rumour Mill



Second these


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## ned

I second - Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## Phil Istine

I second illicit chocolate

I suggest:  tapatalk tantrum(s)


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## SueC

I second The Rumor Mill


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## Jonthom

The app is more popular than I am

(amused by the Tapatalk suggestions [emoji14] but also a serious suggestion)

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## DeClarke

I'm liking that "Are you my lawyer?" prompt.


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## Theglasshouse

I dont know how many I can second or recommend but here we go.

I second:


> The crumbling parchment
> The Last Day on Earth
> Torn From the Deadlines
> Wait! What?


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## bdcharles

Prompt is up, votes are flooding in, ideas are already forming.


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## bdcharles

Don’t forget to vote on August’s Literary Maneuvers monthly competition prompt. One day left...


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## bdcharles

I need judges! Judges! Will _you _judge? What about _you_, over there, trying not to be seen. _You _will judge. Yes you will. You're doing it. 

Please? I thoroughly recommend it actually. It's a great honour, and not without a certain ... power. Use it wisely, though.


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## H.Brown

I'll jusdge again bd for august's challenge.


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## bdcharles

Scores to be hereabouts Sunday.


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## Dormouse

I have my August entry ready to go  
Just waiting to find out how rubbish my July entry was.
August might need tweaking


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## bdcharles

Dormouse said:


> I have my August entry ready to go
> Just waiting to find out how rubbish my July entry was.
> August might need tweaking



We shall hopefully find out tomorrow, once our judges return from their yachting holidays ...


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## Dormouse

I am just being paranoid lol. I have been thanked and am freaking out about it. I shall be patient.

Oh actually I will make myself useful and write The Rumour Mill idea.

Ok don’t panic take your time, thank you for organising the fun.

ETA. IPad you heap of shite. Don’t correct me!! Eclipse is NOT the same as Epilogue. 
wanders off swearing.


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## aj47

So, I see winners in the newsletter ... do we have scores yet?


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## ned

they are last month's winners Astro - that way it is easier for me to update the copy once the scores come in.


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## bdcharles

Anyone else want to judge for this month's LM?


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## aj47

ned said:


> they are last month's winners Astro - that way it is easier for me to update the copy once the scores come in.



Then why does it have "Dead Boys Don't Cry"? 



Please use small words as I'm known to confuse easily.


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## ned

because I was expecting the results by Sunday - fair enough, no one said which Sunday.

I am not very good at re-formatting - and if embarrassment occurs, so be it.


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## H.Brown

Sorry ned and guys I was late with my scores as I got called into RL work on my days off over sunday and monday. Once again I'm very sorry.


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## ned

H - don't be sorry - we all understand that real life gets in the way. And we all appreciate your efforts.

I was just explaining the situation from my point of view.


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## H.Brown

I know you were ned I thought an explination was due on my part also. 

I hate being late with things hahaha, but alsa there are only so many hours in a day unfortunatly. I enjoy judging these challenges, and believe that each entrant deserves my upmost effort when it comes to judging, I like to take my time when offering reviews and scores as they all deserve.


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## aj47

I really do get literal-minded about stuff and it confuses me ... I don't intend to be an ass but I end up looking like one.


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## sigmadog




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## bdcharles

*Scores *are happ'nin over on the other thread.


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## bdcharles

2 days left, people.


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## bdcharles

While this month's comp ticks down, why not get some more prompts going?

Mine:
A New Type Of Clown
A Place Far From The City


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## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Suggestions:
Anonymous
Celestial Fields
Old Man Saturn


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## Phil Istine

Suggestions:

Bar Gazer

Double Dribble

Fairy Devilmother


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## Jonthom

What are your crimes?

The Night at the Coliseum.

The harsh embrace of cruel machines.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## NotMe

A Place Far From The City - seconded.


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## H.Brown

Seconded A Place Far From The City.

Suggested:

Eye of the storm.
Make a small change today.
My Snowman ate my...


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## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Seconded:
Eye of the Storm

I'm gonna go with some more song-title based prompts, 'cause that seems to work:
First Degree Apathy
Raise the Chalice
Hymn to the Last Generation
Dead Man Dancing
Camouflage


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## SueC

Lots of good suggestions! Here's mine ...

Where did you go?
The funeral
Lost in the Forest
Learning to swim


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## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

I second The Funeral


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## H.Brown

I second Lost in the forest.

Suggest:

Living in dreamland.
Survival of the fitest.


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## godofwine

Well, I started about noon and finished at 2 after working through lunch, but the story is all done. I'll post tomorrow because the network went down on the computers at work


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## aj47

What? Wait! <checks post>  Dayum, I gave up too soon ... maybe I can get this done....


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## bdcharles

Last day, writers. Last day ...


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## velo

bdcharles said:


> Last day, writers. Last day ...



Correct, this was one of the prompts.

:very_drunk:


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## bdcharles

~ ​
Dear Competitors, Writers, Creatives and Fellow WF Members,

Due to some unforeseen and unavoidable computer Issues experienced by some Entrants I am going to extend the  competition Deadline by 24 hours, to 11:59PM tonight, the 17th August (GMT+1). 

Kind Regards,

_{{here a scorch mark obscures what looks like a name}}

_~ ​


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## godofwine

Thanks BDCharles. The network is running so I posted my story. I appreciate you understanding. It's posted to both the workshop and the main thread.


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## aj47

I ...of course ... had my son's wisdom tooth extraction to occupy me today, plus other ... _stuff_ ... and I have a story that is incomplete, incoherent, and incapable of being posted cuz I'm in the wrong place.  double dayum on roller-skates.


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## godofwine

astroannie said:


> I ...of course ... had my son's wisdom tooth extraction to occupy me today, plus other ... _stuff_ ... and I have a story that is incomplete, incoherent, and incapable of being posted cuz I'm in the wrong place.  double dayum on roller-skates.



Annie are you okay? Are you okay, Annie?

You can do it. You've got a couple hours


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## aj47

I'm at work for "a couple hours" ... feh and fiddlesticks.


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## aj47

How does GMT compare to BST?   Cuz that handy clock is GMT.


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## bdcharles

astroannie said:


> How does GMT compare to BST?   Cuz that handy clock is GMT.



BST is definitely better - brighter mornings, later nights.


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## bdcharles

Now that the comp is closed for the month, let's have a couple more days of prompts. Scores meanwhile are churning, churning, and anyone that would like to judge please say so and we will go from there


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## velo

Prompts-
The lost dog
Stuck in an airport (because I currently am) 
Writer's block


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## bdcharles

Just so you know, we have 3 judges the Woman from the Void / Last Day on Earth comp - H.Brown, Ned and myself. Ned was a late volunteer so please don't be too baffled to see his feedback in there.


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## ned

too much information?


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## bdcharles

ned said:


> too much information?



I don't know. I'm not good with gauging these things.

At least I didn't mention the hundred queenheads you slipped me...


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## ned

wow! - what are queenheads? - don't answer.

I volunteered to be a judge this month because I couldn't come up with a story.....
so, regarding creativity and commitment, you're already way ahead of me.


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## Dormouse

ned said:


> wow! - what are queenheads?


 I think those might be pounds.


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## ned

yeah, I was being iron age ironic. I did say 'don't answer that question'.

but this judging is a tough gig - nothing you would pay for....


----------



## bdcharles

Last call for any prompts and secondings? I am going to pout the poll up tomorrow. Have your say! Be heard!


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Suggest:
Once We Were Soldiers
Imaginary Music
Cosmic Cowboy
Man from Mars


----------



## aj47

second *​Imaginary Music*


----------



## bdcharles

Prompt voting is open, yes it is, yes it is, yes it is! 

https://www.writingforums.com/threads/179733-Literary-Maneuvers-September-Prompt-Voting


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## ned

BD - just a quick suggestion from moi...

cast your vote last, after the count, then you can have the casting vote on any ties.


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## velo

I dunno, last month's was kind of fun trying to incorporate two prompts.


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## ned

yes, it was rather confusing.

BD says in the challenge intro blurb 'as long as it's related in some way to the prompts'

however, the side-bar advert for the challenge says and/or..........


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## SueC

I saw that, too, and I went for "or." Hope it still counts.


----------



## Dormouse

SueC said:


> I saw that, too, and I went for "or." Hope it still counts.



I did as well. It didn’t even occur to me it might be both. Oh well if it does t count I had fun writing it


----------



## bdcharles

ned said:


> BD - just a quick suggestion from moi...
> 
> cast your vote last, after the count, then you can have the casting vote on any ties.



Influence the proceedings? Me? I just work here ... 



velo said:


> I dunno, last month's was kind of fun trying to incorporate two prompts.





SueC said:


> I saw that, too, and I went for "or." Hope it still counts.





Dormouse said:


> I did as well. It didn’t even occur to me it might be both. Oh well if it does t count I had fun writing it



I'm counting them all.


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## bdcharles

Anyone like to judge next months's LM? Sign up here!


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## SueC

I'd be happy to judge next month, bd


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## velo

I'll judge


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## bdcharles

Thanks Velo and Sue - much appreciated. Any more for any more? By the way I shall open the comp later today as I will be phone-only til Sunday.


----------



## NotMe

I'll judge.


----------



## godofwine

I've got the content in mind for, The Funeral. I'll try to start tomorrow. This'll be interesting...mwah hahahaha. Mwah hahahaha


----------



## bdcharles

NotMe said:


> I'll judge.



Brilliant, thank you!


----------



## bdcharles

Scores are up, scores are up - and I must apologise for the lateness.


----------



## velo

Well jeepers, the last time I offered to judge no one entered.  I'm starting to think I have BO


----------



## bdcharles

Stick with it. We need entries, folks. Lots of entries.


----------



## H.Brown

Got a feeling that I may throw my hat in the ring this time round...


----------



## SueC

Go Hannah!!


----------



## H.Brown

@I have an idea brewing but we'll see if I can pin it all down on paper before the deadline Sue


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## Candervalle

Getting awful lonely at this funeral.


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## bdcharles

Let's hope the body count climbs, eh


----------



## PiP

bdcharles said:


> Let's hope the body count climbs, eh



If you want to enter, please remember the clock is ticking
*This competition will close on: **Saturday, the 15th September at 11:59:59 PM, BST, on the dot.
*


----------



## velo

rose are red
violets are blue
entering the LM challenge is fun
so hurry and write, we need you!


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## H.Brown

I've posted my entry, have you? If not then don't forget the deadline is looming only one more day to go before this months challenge ends. Come on lets make it a good one.


----------



## bdcharles

Last day to get your goth on and write something funereal ... next month’s will assuredly be all jolly butterflies ...


----------



## Ibb

Hours to go and only two entries! I've missed the LMs and am trying to finish my piece before the deadline. Quick question: If I preface the story with a short two-sentence quote, does that affect the word count?


----------



## bdcharles

Ibb said:


> Hours to go and only two entries! I've missed the LMs and am trying to finish my piece before the deadline. Quick question: If I preface the story with a short two-sentence quote, does that affect the word count?



Umm ... what answer's more likely to make you submit an entry?  

j/k. But it will count, yep. Strip out the thats and the justs and the nows and the "it was"es and the "he noticed"'s. Invoke backstory with one word.


----------



## Ibb

bdcharles said:


> Umm ... what answer's more likely to make you submit an entry?
> 
> j/k. But it will count, yep. Strip out the thats and the justs and the nows and the "it was"es and the "he noticed"'s. Invoke backstory with one word.



Thanks. I'll just nix it. Mark Twain will have to piggyback on my greatness another time.


----------



## Theglasshouse

Looks like I didn't know about BST local time in Britain. It was 11:00 p.m. when I posted.


----------



## bdcharles

OK, yes, the comp is now closed. The judges are judging, and Literary Maneuvers is looking for more *prompts*. 

So, I submit, for your consideration of next month's prompts:

- Dolly Lumpwag's Incurable _What?!_
- The Tale of a Macguffin


----------



## Candervalle

Second:

A Tale of a Mcguffan

Suggest:

Hollow
Greasy Lamp
Bloody Oxfords


----------



## SueC

I third A Tale of a McGuffan.

And for those, like me, who had no idea, here's this:

*In fiction, a MacGuffin (sometimes McGuffin or maguffin) is a plot device in the form of some goal, desired object, or another motivator that the protagonist pursues, often with little or no narrative explanation.*


*In Vertig**o, for instance, "Carlotta Valdes" is a MacGuffin; she never appears and the details of her death are unimportant to the viewer, but the story about her apparently possessing Madeleine Elster is the spur for Scottie's investigation of her, and hence the film's entire plot.*


----------



## bdcharles

SueC said:


> I third A Tale of a McGuffan.
> 
> And for those, like me, who had no idea, here's this:
> 
> *In fiction, a MacGuffin (sometimes McGuffin or maguffin) is a plot device in the form of some goal, desired object, or another motivator that the protagonist pursues, often with little or no narrative explanation.*
> 
> 
> *In Vertig**o, for instance, "Carlotta Valdes" is a MacGuffin; she never appears and the details of her death are unimportant to the viewer, but the story about her apparently possessing Madeleine Elster is the spur for Scottie's investigation of her, and hence the film's entire plot.*



Ah, so you've not heard the tale of Mad Robert MacGuffin, last seen wandering the Highlands in possession of a sheep poke, a tattered filofax, and - and this is important - _a mid-sized ball bearing dangling from a key chain and having the word "Excelsior" engraved upon it_?


----------



## velo

I'll have my scores in tonight after work.


----------



## H.Brown

Forest romp...
Cloud riders...
Dancing in the dark.


----------



## bdcharles

Second:


H.Brown said:


> Cloud riders...


----------



## velo

Cloud riders


----------



## velo

I'm going to write one for cloud riders no matter the outcome of the poll.  I was literally walking through the clouds yesterday whilst hiking in the Olympic mountains and I wrote half of the story in my head on the trail.  Talk about inspiration!


----------



## bdcharles

LM_Scores.month(September).up=true;


----------



## SueC

????


----------



## Candervalle

SueC said:


> ????




Programmer humor


----------



## velo

if($scores == true){
     echo("There was a great rejoicing throughout the land");
}
else{
     privateMessage('bdcharles', 'yo, where the scores at?');
}


----------



## bdcharles

SueC said:


> ????



Lol yes sorry, sept scores are out


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Second:
Hollow

And some suggestions for October (in Halloween spirit):
Dead Man's Dance
Ghost Town
Sharp Teeth Pretty Teeth
Darkness to Spare
Hellstone


----------



## bdcharles

Any more for any more prompt suggestions or seconds? Look at the suggestions already madem or simply let the turning seasons inspire you.


----------



## PiP

Second: Forest romp


----------



## velo

Well, my story for cloud riders is in the can and I'm really happy with it so I'd like to third, fourth, fifth, and sixth 'cloud riders.'


----------



## bdcharles

velo said:


> Well, my story for cloud riders is in the can and I'm really happy with it so I'd like to third, fourth, fifth, and sixth 'cloud riders.'




Vote "Dolly Lumpwag's Incurable _What?!_", everyone.


----------



## velo

bdcharles said:


> Vote "Dolly Lumpwag's Incurable _What?!_", everyone.



Dude, really?


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Second:
Dancing In The Dark


----------



## bdcharles

Ok, everyone, last chance to get your nominations in. I'll be putting up the poll later today.


----------



## bdcharles

New comp will be up on the morrow. Would anyone like to judge (max 4)?


----------



## bdcharles

I'll judge for October's LM. Anyone else?


----------



## kilroy214

I'll be a judge.


----------



## H.Brown

Sorry guys won't be able to judge this one as I really want to write with cloud riders as the prompt.


----------



## bdcharles

Hi all - while entries are coming in, there's no reason why we can't think of other prompts. Whenever one occurs to you, just put it here. 

Suggest:
Unreliable Narrator
Personal Mythology
Picture prompt (Source: Kay Neilsen / Amazon)


----------



## H.Brown

Hall of mirrors...


----------



## ned

From a judge's point of view-
I was disappointed to see that my judge's comments for the August LM were literally spaced out.
We all know WF can play havoc with the format when cutting and pasting. So, I suggest that the host take two minutes
to tidy up the returned scores before posting - make them visually consistent and take pride in their presentation.

regarding prompts-
it occurs to me, that with the very prominent sidebar graphic, LM already has an obvious picture prompt....


----------



## bdcharles

ned said:


> From a judge's point of view-
> I was disappointed to see that my judge's comments for the August LM were literally spaced out.
> We all know WF can play havoc with the format when cutting and pasting. So, I suggest that the host take two minutes
> to tidy up the returned scores before posting - make them visually consistent and take pride in their presentation.



Ned, your comments were pasted direct from your PM. If you want them  to appear tidy, I would advise you send them in a tidied up fashion.  Believe it or not I don't always have two minutes to clean up other peoples'  writing, not to mention there's an argument that I shouldn't have to,  and frankly I am not sure I won't get a ton of grief if I did. So - own  your content, and present your scores to me as you would like them to appear.  That said, if someone knows how to get the "hidden" code button up then  please let me know, 'cos that handy little icon thing  for it seems to have gone.



ned said:


> regarding prompts-
> it occurs to me, that with the very prominent sidebar graphic, LM already has an obvious picture prompt....



That pic is created after the prompt is decided upon. But sure - suggest it for another month, or use it this month. It's a cool pic and pretty inspiring. 

Ned I honestly hope you're not suggesting I don't take pride in hosting this competition. I do. I even mention it on my writing bio in submissions. I take pride with every bit of written communication I put onto WF. But if you feel that way then okay; fair's fair, and you are clearly unhappy with the way I am running things so I'll tell you what: come Feb, after the Grand Fiction challenge, I'm going to hand over the reins to you, and give you the opportunity to run the comp your way.


----------



## ned

hello BD, you seem to have missed my point - so I'll spell it out...

many of us have formatting problems with the WF interface.

text that looks fine in the editor or preview window comes out different when posted.
double spaces appearing and sometimes sections with no spacing.
usually, it is no problem as it can be quickly edited.

but sent in a PM, I don't get to see how it arrived, and is out of my control.

I don't know if it is the WP used or something else. But as said, it is quite a common problem.

so, just a heads-up BD, that it may not necessarily be the judge's fault.
and besides, two minutes is a small investment for a better looking forum.

and I am certainly not questioning your pride BD - that shines through...........


----------



## Candervalle

Bar fight in the Coffee Shop!


----------



## SueC

Candervalle, is that a suggestion for a prompt or a comment? LOL!


----------



## Kyle R

ned said:


> many of us have formatting problems with the WF interface.
> 
> text that looks fine in the editor or preview window comes out different when posted.
> double spaces appearing and sometimes sections with no spacing.
> usually, it is no problem as it can be quickly edited.
> 
> but sent in a PM, I don't get to see how it arrived, and is out of my control.



I've always found the Preview function shows these formatting changes just fine.

But if you don't trust it, you could always send the scores to yourself through PM, first.

Then you can see how they'd look when received, and adjust as needed. :encouragement:


----------



## ned

thank you Kyle - but the problem occurs when hitting the send or post button. Even after further editing...

the only thing that seems to work is the save function whilst editing text already posted by oneself.

but my suggestion to BD was to take some of the pressure off the judges, not make the process more complicated.
scores sent in may be written in haste, or messed up by the WF interface. But it would be nice to know that there is some teamwork to back you up.


----------



## Candervalle

SueC said:


> Candervalle, is that a suggestion for a prompt or a comment? LOL!



Yes.


----------



## H.Brown

With all that has been going on in rl I haven't been able to write an entry, but I will be writing a short story based on the cloud riders prompt. Maybe I'll judge be able to judge next month's challenge.


----------



## bdcharles

Last day for your entries for "Cloud Riders", folks


----------



## bdcharles

OK, I shall await the scores from my fellow judge(s). Meanwhile let's continue with promots for next month's comp. Thus far we have the following suggestions:



bdcharles said:


> Unreliable Narrator
> Personal Mythology
> Picture prompt (Source: Kay Neilsen / Amazon)
> View attachment 22814







H.Brown said:


> Hall of mirrors...


----------



## Candervalle

Second:

unreliable narrator

Offer:

twisted iron


----------



## Candervalle

I also second the picture prompt.


----------



## SueC

Third: Unreliable Narrator


----------



## velo

Second- Twisted Iron


----------



## sigmadog

Too late for prompt suggestions?

If not:



Winter smiles
Love in reverse
Analog princess

Also, once voting is finished and a prompt chosen, please PM me so I can get the graphic going. It's nice having it up as soon as possible.

-steve


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Suggest:
Butterflies for Sale
Magnetic
Other Side of the Tracks


----------



## bdcharles

Last day for suggestions and seconds. I’ll put it to a poll tomorrow.


----------



## Teb

Will try any of them, but must make myself not write and post in 30 minutes flat this time round.


----------



## SueC

I do that too sometimes! LOL.


----------



## velo

I like twisted iron because I could write a continuation of this month's story.  

Maybe I'm lazy?


----------



## Teb

Maybe I'm lazy sounds like a great idea for short story.


----------



## bdcharles

Prompt Voting is open, everyone. Meanwhile let's get some judges in. Who wants to? You do.


----------



## Ibb

I'll judge!

I promise to be exceedingly critical, unfairly crude, relentlessly uncompromising, and to make every single one of my waterspouts of feedback awash in too-many adjectives while confuddling the author, keeping him/her unawares as to wheter I liked or disliked the story. There will be gradings, points of scales, unsubstantiated tangents into the realm of opinion as to what I think of the writer and his/her personal life, accusations, ethically-charged himhawing, debates as to whether or not I think 'their' should be used to denote a singular human being, stuff potentially Left-leaning, stuff potentially Right-leaning, memes, pictures, uncalled-for insults, and manipulative infographs proclaiming the superiority over one type of writer against the inferiority of some other type of writer. Along the way, after filling three pages' worth of what will amount to the writing equivalent of running breathlessly in circles before an appreciative audience, the circles themselves making up, upon inspection, an astoundingly small circumfrence, I will eventually collapse, not before making a small squeal, into a crumpled heap atop my small dungpile of prosery, whereupon I shall wave my white flag and afford an arbitrary score, itself having nothing at all to do with the aforementioned hullabaloo but pulled only after much struggle and stress upon the muscles from inside the pit of an upturned bowler cap. And that will be your score. 

Yes. YES. I will judge.


----------



## velo

*Ibb: I'll judge!*

*SPaG:2
T/V: 1
Effect: 0
Overall: 3*

Ibb, not only was this very technically flawed it didn't resonate with me in any way. Some misspellings and awkward phrases: circumfErence, "heap atop my dungpile" (redundant...a heap on top of a pile?), multiple run-ons, and other such atrocities.  

Tone was pedantic but uninformative and the voice akin to a mewling third grader espousing the virtues of chocolate pudding over vanilla.  

Overall I can make neither heads nor tails of your intended purpose.  Was this meant to be funny?  Threatening?  A warning?  The obfuscatory nature of the language construction lends itself most to incomprehension if not utter befuddlement.  

I also must take exception to your clear fervour to pass judgement on others whilst holding yourself apart from the same scrutiny.  



> Judge not, that you be not judged.For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?  Matthew 7:13KJV





> Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour. Leviticus 19:15













meant entirely in jest!!!  :smiley_simmons:


----------



## bdcharles

Thanks Ibb


----------



## bdcharles

Any more judgers? Perhaps the presence of the *scores* might influence you?


----------



## Ibb

If no one else steps up, I can split into 4 separate personalities each with his or her own distinct literary taste; and schizophrenically judge accordingly. Just give the word.


----------



## velo

Well done this month, Ibb!


----------



## bdcharles

Ibb said:


> If no one else steps up, I can split into 4 separate personalities each with his or her own distinct literary taste; and schizophrenically judge accordingly. Just give the word.



Yeah, I'd been thinking about getting my antagonist to judge. Never mind that he died* in a dragon accident in book one, chapter 41. And completely leaving aside the charge that he is a known grammar contravener as evidenced by chapter 22. Come on WF, don't make me have to use a character that articles his nouns with "an" (irrespective of whether they're vowelled or not) just to make himself sound clever...









*or maybe he was just wounded


----------



## SueC

Can't we offer judges some kind of kernel? I mean, if a prompt tickles your fancy and you find a story building in your mind, that would automatically exempt you from participating as a judge. And visa versa. So, since we are a web site that encourages writers to participate in the comps, it is kind of a contradiction and we wind up having fewer and fewer members offering to judge, because they really want to write about that "unreliable metal" or whatever. 

What if we encourage judges to submit also, with the understanding that they cannot win the comp, but can certainly be recognized. I mean, offer a critique, but leave off the score? I don't know. It just seems to me that there must be a better way, and there doesn't need to be such a mean choice in the matter. 

Thoughts?


----------



## Ibb

velo said:


> Well done this month, Ibb!




Thanks, bromido! You, too--and everybody else who entered. As for your prior review that totally obliterated my feelings....

Just wait. I got something for ya. :twisted:


----------



## bdcharles

SueC said:


> Can't we offer judges some kind of kernel? I mean, if a prompt tickles your fancy and you find a story building in your mind, that would automatically exempt you from participating as a judge. And visa versa. So, since we are a web site that encourages writers to participate in the comps, it is kind of a contradiction and we wind up having fewer and fewer members offering to judge, because they really want to write about that "unreliable metal" or whatever.
> 
> What if we encourage judges to submit also, with the understanding that they cannot win the comp, but can certainly be recognized. I mean, offer a critique, but leave off the score? I don't know. It just seems to me that there must be a better way, and there doesn't need to be such a mean choice in the matter.
> 
> Thoughts?



We do allow exactly that. You also get extra awards for judging a certain number of times.


----------



## SueC

I didn't see critiques of judges submissions. I had submitted one a while ago, not realizing that when I offered to judge, the story would be eliminated. If there was a critique of that, I must have missed. Thanks, Bd.


----------



## bdcharles

SueC said:


> I didn't see critiques of judges submissions. I had submitted one a while ago, not realizing that when I offered to judge, the story would be eliminated. If there was a critique of that, I must have missed. Thanks, Bd.



Hmm that’s not good. When was this?


----------



## H.Brown

Bd I think judges seem to react differently in the case of a judge entering. Some will write a critique of the work and leave off the scores, and some I find don't offer a critique due to the entry being made by a judge.  I wouldn't see any harm in letting the judges submit an entry under the understanding that they will only receive critique on the story and no score and work it into the judging rubric that judges entries will not be scored but will be critiqued, if it has not already in there. 

This means they would not only benefit from judging other entrants work but also be able to gain some incite into their writing. Just my thoughts guys.  

And I'll judge this month's challenge if your in need of judges bd.


----------



## bdcharles

I just go by the text in the header of each comp, which hasn't changed much and says "A judge's entry will receive a          review by their fellow judges, but it will not receive a score."

Thanks Hannah for your offer to judge. That's 2 - any more? Got two slots.


----------



## H.Brown

I'm glad it's already covered.

I'm looking forward to judging again.


----------



## SueC

Ages ago, probably the first time I judged. Not a big deal, but it did lead me to make the comment above. Now that I know at least a critique _should_​ be offered, I am happy! Thanks again.


----------



## velo

I'll judge.


----------



## bdcharles

velo said:


> I'll judge.


Nice one thank you


----------



## J.J. Maxx

I had to do my homework for this prompt, but I'm definitely submitting something for this. As usual, my first draft will be 1000+ words and then the chopping will begin. 

~ J. J.


----------



## epimetheus

I'm going to enter this months competition, just need to shed a hundred words, but a question about the secure entries bit: what is the advantage of retaining 'first rights' and being undetectable to search engines? Does it mean that if I post in the normal section someone could steal my brilliant ideas as their own? I have a vague plan of maybe expanding my idea to a longer short story - but being realistic that's unlikely to happen. Are there any disadvantages to posting to the secure entries?


----------



## SueC

> I'm going to enter this months competition, just need to shed a hundred words, but a question about the secure entries bit: what is the advantage of retaining 'first rights' and being undetectable to search engines? Does it mean that if I post in the normal section someone could steal my brilliant ideas as their own? I have a vague plan of maybe expanding my idea to a longer short story - but being realistic that's unlikely to happen. Are there any disadvantages to posting to the secure entries?



Hi Epimetheus. I have submitted a story this time, too, and for the first time since becoming a member, used the protection of retaining first rights because my story is part of a bigger project. When you submit and post to the open forum, it is considered "published." In doing that, if you should ever want to publish it elsewhere, you would have to say that it had been published as part of a comp. on writing forums. That has typically not been an issue for me in the past, although I have seen many others routinely post on the secure entry area. The idea of theft does not really come up, since we simply do not do that here, but if it concerns you and you feel you may want to submit your work for publication, you might consider giving it the protection. The only disadvantage, if you want to call it that, for posting a secure entry is that people looking at entries in the competition have to click on a link to get to yours, instead of just scrolling down the page.

That is also the difference between submitting to the Fiction Workshop (Members' Only Areas, hidden from guests and search engines.), for example, as opposed to General Fiction (Be aware that posts in this forum are visible to non members and search engines. If you wish to retain exclusive or first publication rights to your works, you should post them in the appropriate Workshop.)

So excited for you to enter! Good for you and good luck!


----------



## velo

I do it by default, just to keep my options open.  If I ever decide to submit elsewhere I don't have to worry about it.


----------



## bdcharles

One more day to show me your mad, your deluded, your damaged, your innocent, your outright fabricators. Or something else entirely.


----------



## bdcharles

OK this month's comp is closed to entries, so thank you to all who entered this time round. Judges, if I could have your scores - the ones that have yet to send, that is - that would be superb. Meanwhile let's kick off some prompt suggestions for December and get a brace of judges lined up. Anyone can judge; literally anyone. If you can read, and hold an opinion, you can do it.


----------



## J.J. Maxx

A Few Prompts:

First Year Issues
Deadline: Missed

Also, I would like to judge next month. 

Cheers.

~ J. J.


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Suggestions:
Alienism
The Road at the End of the World
Black Magic


----------



## SueC

Christmas Past


----------



## Ibb

'Ello. Just popping in to announce that my scores will be turned in no later than tomorrow evening. Halfway finished, but need to follow the own personal writing bug when it bites. Thank you for your patience and good luck to all the entrants.


----------



## Arachne

Prompts- 
Stale sandwiches
A flickering candle


----------



## Ibb

My reviews are in! Look on my criticisms, ye mighty, and despair. 

(I'm joking; everybody did a great job; good luck, and a preliminary toast to the new contest. Wewt wewt.)


----------



## Phil Istine

Prompt suggestions:

The night before Christmas
Sleigh slayer
Sleight of hand
Night on the tiles
Moon landing


----------



## bdcharles

Great suggesions; keep 'em coming. And thanks JJ Maxx for your kind offer to judge. Anyone else that would like the honour? Don't forget to second prompts you like, to get them included in the poll.


----------



## ned

hello BD - let me make this perfectly clear, I have a couple of suggestions, not criticisms - as you seem to confuse the two.

once the deadline has passed for LM entries, then the sidebar advert should be removed. If it is in your power.
it is rather depressing and embarrassing to see such a prominent and vivid advert that is out of date.
and I feel it doesn't reflect well on WF as a whole. 

again, once the deadline for LM entries has passed, put up a post on the entries thread stating that the challenge is closed.
might save confusion and is just common courtesy, as not everybody drops into the coffee shop.

prompt suggestions - 
a shot in the dark
island of lost souls
moonage daydream
a thief in the night
black friday

second - moon landing


----------



## Phil Istine

Second: Alienism,
Second: Black Friday


----------



## Arachne

Second -
A thief in the night
Black Friday


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

second A shot in the dark


----------



## bdcharles

ned said:


> hello BD - let me make this perfectly clear, I have a couple of suggestions, not criticisms - as you seem to confuse the two.
> 
> once the deadline has passed for LM entries, then the sidebar advert should be removed.* If it is in your power.*
> it is rather depressing and embarrassing to see such a prominent and vivid advert that is out of date.
> and I feel it doesn't reflect well on WF as a whole.
> 
> again, once the deadline for LM entries has passed, put up a post on the entries thread stating that the challenge is closed.
> might save confusion and is just common courtesy, as not everybody drops into the coffee shop.
> 
> prompt suggestions -
> a shot in the dark
> island of lost souls
> moonage daydream
> a thief in the night
> black friday
> 
> second - moon landing





It isn't, sorry. You'll need a media manager or website savvy person for that.


----------



## bdcharles

OK, I will run the selections til tomorrow AM GMT and then set up a poll. Any judges with outstanding scores please send 'em in, soon as you can, thanks


----------



## bdcharles

Just to add - for December’s competition, I shall throw in a little twist for you all


----------



## H.Brown

I will have my scores in on Tuesday guys


----------



## SueC

> But yes, if the MM could team take this as a request to ensure timely and appropriate banner changes please, that would be great.



And courtesy, on all fronts, would be greatly appreciated and eventually universally expected. Thank you.


----------



## EmmaSohan

Um, as far as I know, running this contest and judging are volunteer positions. IMO, the dominant emotion should be "thank you." Coming in second should be "Whatever works for you", with "No problem" a close third. Unless you want to upgrade "How can I help?"

And I'm sure suggestions are considered and useful too, so I'm not saying they shouldn't be made. I just think they're fourth.


----------



## velo

EmmaSohan said:


> Um, as far as I know, running this contest and judging are volunteer positions. IMO, the dominant emotion should be "thank you." Coming in second should be "Whatever works for you", with "No problem" a close third. Unless you want to upgrade "How can I help?"
> 
> And I'm sure suggestions are considered and useful too, so I'm not saying they shouldn't be made. I just think they're fourth.



Agreed.  I noticed a fair bit of language in recent posts that I found to be adversarial.  This is supposed to be fun, not accusatory.  I would hope that we can all remember that.


----------



## Ibb

bdcharles once saved me from a fire after I tried mixing two incompatible literary genres inside a vial--so he gets my vote and unwavering gratitude. 

:tongue:


----------



## sigmadog

Regarding the banner advertisements: 

I'm the one that creates them, but I don't check WF every day, and when I do I don't always check the LM Coffee Shop, so I depend on some notification via Private Message (PM's come to my email which I check multiple times per day) for timely information on new LM Prompts. Once I get that info, I try to create a new banner within a couple days at most, but since I'm also busy working for money, my first obligation is to my paying clients.

I don't have back-end access to WF, so I can't replace the old banner. What I do is send it to someone with access (usually Pip) and the ad is normally up within a day.

Bottom-line: *Once the prompt is selected, anyone can PM me with the info and I'll place it in my work schedule. Early notification is the quickest route to a timely banner change.*

And feel free at any time to compliment me on my artwork. It's all original, you know!


----------



## Gumby

> And feel free at any time to compliment me on my artwork. It's all original, you know!



And fantastic, too!


----------



## bdcharles

December's *poll* is up; vote for _your _winner!

Please note that any further prompt suggestions will be added to January's wishlist. Meanwhile, we have space for more judges.


----------



## velo

I'll judge again. (the entrants groan)  Other projects are taking enough time I won't have cycles for an entry for a while.  I have a book that hasn't had any love in about 18months that is suddenly nagging me from the fringes of my consciousness once more.


----------



## epimetheus

Just like to say thanks to everyone who judges and the forum members who volunteer their time to make it possible. It's a great little resource to have. Thought i'd say that before i get my scores back and i start hating you all.


----------



## bdcharles

Scores should be up very soon...


----------



## velo

bdcharles said:


> Scores should be up very soon...



...and epimetheus readies his boiling cauldron of hatred and vitriol.


----------



## J.J. Maxx

bdcharles said:


> Scores should be up very soon...



Thank you, bdcharles, for bringing this all together and wrangling the entries and scores. Your work is much appreciated. 

Cheers.

~ J. J.


----------



## bdcharles

J.J. Maxx said:


> Thank you, bdcharles, for bringing this all together and wrangling the entries and scores. Your work is much appreciated.
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> ~ J. J.



Thanks. Just waiting on those final scores. Let me nudge the appropriate judge.


----------



## epimetheus

velo said:


> ...and epimetheus readies his boiling cauldron of hatred and vitriol.



...yes, yes. A dash more bile, stirred well with spleen. What is this? Humility! That was close, would ruin the whole damn thing. Hubris, much better...


----------



## J.J. Maxx

bdcharles said:


> Thanks. Just waiting on those final scores. Let me nudge the appropriate judge.



*nudge* *nudge*

~ J.J.


----------



## bdcharles

December comp is up; write to it ...


----------



## SueC

> *nudge* *nudge*
> 
> ~ J.J.



I second the nudge.


----------



## Arachne

Nudging from over here too :icon_cheesygrin:


----------



## velo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ona-RhLfRfc


----------



## bdcharles

The judge has been nudged - though unfortunately real life interfered so we are looking at Sat for the scores...


----------



## Arachne

Thanks for letting us know


----------



## bdcharles

Hi, November scores will be up later today. Many apologies for the delay.


----------



## bdcharles

Nov scores! Scores for November!


----------



## ned

in writing, does anybody know what "an Oxford" is?


----------



## Phil Istine

ned said:


> in writing, does anybody know what "an Oxford" is?



Reading through the relevant part, I'm assuming it was shorthand for 'Oxford comma', i.e. the judge felt that an additional comma was needed before the 'and'.

There are opinions on whether or not one should be used.  I was always taught not to use them, but sometimes the meaning is unclear or the text can become absurd it they are omitted.  I use them more often than not these days but I regard it as a style choice unless it creates an absurdity or the meaning is unclear.  That's purely a personal choice though and doesn't fit with the way I was taught.

https://www.grammarly.com/blog/what-is-the-oxford-comma-and-why-do-people-care-so-much-about-it/


----------



## J.J. Maxx

3 More Days in this Month's Competition! Get those entries in! 

~ J. J.


----------



## velo

ned said:


> in writing, does anybody know what "an Oxford" is?



Hey Ned, sorry for not being clear.  Phil Istine is correct in my meaning; an Oxford comma.  He is also correct that there is some debate over it but in general I have found it to be the preferred usage among writers unless there is a specific reason to not use it.  The issue is that without the comma delineating the last item in the series then that item and the penultimate item are granted a specific relationship.  Example- 

During the day I saw Grandma, Grandpa, and Joe.  
During the day I saw Grandma, Grandpa and Joe.  

First sentence each person is treated individually and the assumption is that they were seen separately.  In the second Grandpa is grouped with Joe and they were seen together.  Either is appropriate based on context but when I read your story I didn't see how the items needed that specific relationship.


----------



## bdcharles

One and a half days left, folks. What's the worst or most notable thing that could happen in a moon landing. Engine failure? Aliens? Something unexpected pointing up at you? What dramas might ensue? And what, exactly, dwells on the far hemisphere of our celestial satellite? 650 words ...


----------



## bdcharles

_Aaaannd_ ... that's a wrap for the December comp, everyone. Thanks for all your entries. I will have the scores posted very soon. Meanwhile, let's start getting some prompts together for Jan, and anyone who wants to judge, please sign up here or via PM.


----------



## J.J. Maxx

Prompt Suggestions:



Very Alternative Medicine

Unorthodox Professor

Salad Bar

Border Crossing 

Cheers.

~ J. J.


----------



## bdcharles

*Second:*
Border Crossing
Very Alternative Medicine

*Suggest:*
Things You See in the Smoke
The Rich and Preposterous


----------



## Arachne

Second - 

Very Alternative Medicine
Things You See in the Smoke

Suggestions - 

Woodland Fiend
New Year's Resolution


----------



## velo

Suggest
In the ice
A rough ride
A buddha's tale

Second
Things You See in the Smoke


----------



## SueC

Suggest: How do I get there from here?

and

Show us your main characters worst day, first person


----------



## bdcharles

Streaking miles ahead of the Christmas postal rush, it's the December LM Scores!


----------



## bazz cargo

Large Latte and a ginger cookie please.


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Second:
in the ice

Suggest:
Take My Eyes
The Devil is a Poser


----------



## bdcharles

Second:


SueC said:


> Show us your main characters worst day, first person


----------



## bdcharles

Just the thing to get you through the post-Xmas slump and nosediving towards the grimmest 2 months of the year unless you live in the Southern Hemisphere in which case bully for you, I say, I say bully for you, and can we all come descend upon your house, it's the legendary Literary Maneuvers January Prompt Voting Clambake!

Your vote matters. Use it or lose it 

PS can I get some judges please? Sign up here or PM


----------



## SueC

I'll judge this time around


----------



## bdcharles

Think I might judge too. Feeling ... judgmental.


----------



## velo

I'm smoking all the things....um, for inspiration


----------



## bdcharles

velo said:


> I'm smoking all the things....um, for inspiration



I admire your commitment.


----------



## Candervalle

velo said:


> I'm smoking all the things....um, for inspiration



Dave's not here, man.


----------



## velo

Candervalle said:


> Dave's not here, man.



C'mon man, open up, I got the stuff, I think the cops saw me come in...


----------



## Candervalle

velo said:


> C'mon man, open up, I got the stuff, I think the cops saw me come in...



Who is it?


----------



## velo

IT'S DAVE, MAN!  Open up!


----------



## Arachne

I don't know if anyone else has mentioned it anywhere as I've been off the site, busy with the kids on Christmas hol's, but just had to mention that I'm loving the LM banner this month! Well done to whoever did it. I'm sure it will lure a few people over to have a look. Very cool. 

Arachne


----------



## velo

Arachne said:


> I don't know if anyone else has mentioned it anywhere as I've been off the site, busy with the kids on Christmas hol's, but just had to mention that I'm loving the LM banner this month! Well done to whoever did it. I'm sure it will lure a few people over to have a look. Very cool.
> 
> Arachne



I have to admit I rarely notice the banner.  I've trained myself over the last couple decades to block out anything that looks like an ad that that got through my ad blockers.  (I reallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreally hate adverts)  

So yes, thanks for calling this out.  It's quite well done.


----------



## sigmadog

velo said:


> I reallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreally hate adverts



Me too, and I've been in the design/advertising industry for over thirty-five years.


----------



## bdcharles

Arachne said:


> I don't know if anyone else has mentioned it anywhere as I've been off the site, busy with the kids on Christmas hol's, but just had to mention that I'm loving the LM banner this month! Well done to whoever did it. I'm sure it will lure a few people over to have a look. Very cool.
> 
> Arachne



Yep, seconded - it's very good.


----------



## Arachne

Can anyone tell me how to post a link to the secure thread from the usual comp thread please? 

Arachne


----------



## bdcharles

Arachne said:


> Can anyone tell me how to post a link to the secure thread from the usual comp thread please?
> 
> Arachne



First, enter your story in the secure site and submit it.

Then, when your story comes up, scroll to it, and find its post ID. That's something like #315 toward the top right of the post

Click that. That will take you direct to your entry.

Copy the address from address bar of your browser

Navigate to the non-secure comp page. Create another reply in the thread. This time simply enter the title and wrod count of your entry, highlight it, select the icon above with the world and the chain link.

Paste your copied link into the text field

Click OK

Click Submit

Done


---

Hope this helps - lemme know if not.


----------



## Arachne

bdcharles said:


> First, enter your story in the secure site and submit it.
> 
> Then, when your story comes up, scroll to it, and find its post ID. That's something like #315 toward the top right of the post
> 
> Click that. That will take you direct to your entry.
> 
> Copy the address from address bar of your browser
> 
> Navigate to the non-secure comp page. Create another reply in the thread. This time simply enter the title and wrod count of your entry, highlight it, select the icon above with the world and the chain link.
> 
> Paste your copied link into the text field
> 
> Click OK
> 
> Click Submit
> 
> Done
> 
> 
> ---
> 
> Hope this helps - lemme know if not.



OK, done I think. Thanks bd


----------



## Harper J. Cole

*Annual Grand Fiction Prize returns to the WF*

February will see the fifth running of the WF's premier fiction contest.

This contest is open to all those who excelled in 2018, either through being the winner/runner-up one of our monthly fiction challenges, or for having judged at least five of them, including at least one in the past 12 months.

Twenty-nine of our website's finest will have the opportunity to write a 1,000 word story and win up to $100.

Past Winners
2015 - Terry D, "Quid Pro Quo"
2016 - inkwellmachine, "Like Snuffing Out a Candle"
2017 - joshybo, "Looking Back"
2018 - jenthepen, "Double"

I'm planning to announce the theme and send the invites on Thursday Jan 16th, after submissions for the January LM have closed. I'll open a new thread with the rules when that happens.


----------



## bdcharles

Loving the turnout for this month's LM! Thank you, and keep it coming - you've got 9 and a bit hours


----------



## PiP

And it's worth a reminder that the winner of each challenge will be invited to participate in our annual LM prize challenge!


----------



## velo

bdcharles said:


> Loving the turnout for this month's LM! Thank you, and keep it coming - you've got 9 and a bit hours



Hey BD, a request for clarification.  The LM guide says the 14th is the final day but you're saying today the 16th is the deadline.  If it's the 16th we should change the guide.


----------



## bdcharles

velo said:


> Hey BD, a request for clarification.  The LM guide says the 14th is the final day but you're saying today the 16th is the deadline.  If it's the 16th we should change the guide.



Ah, sorry about that. I've been setting the date, somewhat out of habit, based on when the new comp is set, which in turn was dependent on incoming scores. I'll endeavour to do it on the first day of each month regardless and stick to the 14 day window - but in the meantime let's use the month's comp blurb as the guide rather than the general guide. I'll mention this in the month's blurb going forward.


----------



## velo




----------



## velo

bdcharles said:


> Ah, sorry about that. I've been setting the date, somewhat out of habit, based on when the new comp is set, which in turn was dependent on incoming scores. I'll endeavour to do it on the first day of each month regardless and stick to the 14 day window - but in the meantime let's use the month's comp blurb as the guide rather than the general guide. I'll mention this in the month's blurb going forward.



Also, I went to look and see you did post it in the main comp thread.  Apologies.  I hadn't read that because I assumed I didn't have to...  Lesson learned.


----------



## bdcharles

Over the last couple of years the LM has taken a month off when the Grand Fiction runs. Well we’re not going to do that this year  We are going to try something different. Let’s try a fully anonymous competition. Anonymous judges, anonymous entries all DM’d to me, to be revealed with the final scores. Sound good? Then let’s get some prompts going, and send me a DM if you wanna judge.

Jan scores upcoming soon.


----------



## SueC

Suggestions:

*How did you get that black eye?

*The hardest thing to learn in life is which bridge to cross and which to burn. Bertrand Russell

*A clear conscience is the sure sign of a bad memory. Mark Twain


----------



## SueC

Suggestions:

*How did you get that black eye?

*The hardest thing to learn in life is which bridge to cross and which to burn. Bertrand Russell

*A clear conscience is the sure sign of a bad memory. Mark Twain


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Second:
A clear conscience is the sure sign of a bad memory. Mark Twain

Suggest:
Dead On The Tracks
Spellbound
How Many Miles To Babylon?


----------



## PiP

Just Another Day at the Office
Virtual Friends


----------



## Arachne

Second -
How did you get that black eye?
Just another day at the office

Suggestion - 
One shot


----------



## H.Brown

Second spellbound.

Suggest: 
Forest fire
Moonlight Lake
Carwash


----------



## Megan Pearson

Second
Dead on the Tracks

Suggest
         “In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.”   ―        Martin Luther King Jr.


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Second:
One Shot

Suggest:
The Devil is a Poser
Spirit Talk


----------



## Kebe

Second: 
How did you get that black eye?

Suggest:
Footprints in the snow
Science fair


----------



## PiP

I second: Footprints in the snow


----------



## bdcharles

Look at that, straight to it, no messing - it's your *scores for the first LM of 2019*!



Remember - for Feb, I will need some judges but I would like them to remain anonymous, so DM me your intentions on the down-low


----------



## sigmadog

Second: Science Fair

Suggestions: 
• Silent Song
• The Wager
• Nobody Hears Me


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Second:
The Wager


----------



## Periander

Second:
virtual friends

Suggestions:
when you wake from a dream to a dream
the hiss of a broken water pipe in the night


----------



## bdcharles

Second:



Periander said:


> when you wake from a dream to a dream


----------



## bdcharles

Okay, peoples, I have one, potentially two, judges - please DM me if you want to judge this month as we're doing it anonymously (to reveal on closure unless anyone wishes to remain anon.). It's open to anyone and comes with a few perks if you do it enough times - awards, entry to the Grand Fiction contest, etc. Meanwhile I will set the prompt poll up over the weekend. Then, towards the end of next week, we will vote. Over to you


----------



## bdcharles

Get your *votes* in, folks


----------



## bdcharles

Here's your daily reminder to vote for your preferred Literary Maneuvers prompt for February


----------



## bdcharles

New Literary Maneuvers anonymous challenge now open and awaiting some entrants via PM


----------



## sigmadog

bdcharles said:


> New Literary Maneuvers anonymous challenge now open and awaiting some entrants via PM



Just saw this. I've got a busy weekend coming but I'll try to get some art tossed together for the ad by Monday.


----------



## Harper J. Cole

The GFC is now also open. Remember to PM your entries to me if you have an invite. 8)


----------



## Fatclub

SueC said:


> Suggestions:
> 
> *How did you get that black eye?
> 
> *The hardest thing to learn in life is which bridge to cross and which to burn. Bertrand Russell
> 
> *A clear conscience is the sure sign of a bad memory. Mark Twain


 I just landed after not being here for a while and 
...just spent 5 minutes scrolling around for an avatar with a black eye. I was guessing it was the rabbit/hare drawing!


----------



## Arachne

Fatclub said:


> I just landed after not being here for a while and
> ...just spent 5 minutes scrolling around for an avatar with a black eye. I was guessing it was the rabbit/hare drawing!



Haha, nice to see you back, Fatclub. I hope you are going to put a story in this month, I really enjoyed your last one and would be interested to see what you could come up with for this prompt.  

Arachne


----------



## bdcharles

Arachne said:


> Haha, nice to see you back, Fatclub. I hope you are going to put a story in this month, I really enjoyed your last one and would be interested to see what you could come up with for this prompt.
> 
> Arachne



Who knows who will post. It's all very mysterious.


----------



## Harper J. Cole

Only 4 days to get your GFC entries in! I'm sure someone wants that $100 ... :bomb:


----------



## godofwine

I couldn't get my entry in for the Grand Fiction Challenge, sadly. I got busy at work the past couple days when I thought I'd get time to do it (deadline hunter) and tonight I am entering a talent show where the Grand Prize is $5000 (I win $100 tonight if I qualify for the Semi-finals). I've won $4000 the past 4 years in 5 different talent shows, but I enter every contest with my best foot forward, so wish me luck. 

It's godofwine77 on youtube if you want to check me out.


----------



## velo

We got to get you some better recording equipment...hard to hear over the background noise at the bar.  

Great pipes, mate!


----------



## velo

Also, I'm hoping everyone is waiting for the last minute to submit to the GFC...only 2 so far.


----------



## godofwine

velo said:


> Also, I'm hoping everyone is waiting for the last minute to submit to the GFC...only 2 so far.



I know. I wish I could have entered, but the time got away from me


----------



## H.Brown

I was hoping to have an entry ready but alas couldnt do the prompt justice in time.


----------



## bdcharles

Last day for this month's anonymous LM comp. Get 'em in


----------



## Arachne

godofwine said:


> I couldn't get my entry in for the Grand Fiction Challenge, sadly. I got busy at work the past couple days when I thought I'd get time to do it (deadline hunter) and tonight I am entering a talent show where the Grand Prize is $5000 (I win $100 tonight if I qualify for the Semi-finals). I've won $4000 the past 4 years in 5 different talent shows, but I enter every contest with my best foot forward, so wish me luck.
> 
> It's godofwine77 on youtube if you want to check me out.



Wow, you are a multi-talented man. Great voice!

Arachne


----------



## bdcharles

~
​
Prompts! Writing prompts, picture prompts, song prompts, a simple phrase  to write a story from - anything can serve as a writing prompt. Suggest them here, and second the  ones you like to get them into the poll for next month's Literary  Maneuvers. Prompts!

~
​


----------



## Fatclub

Can I humbly suggest...

...The Bad Samaritan.

I don't have anything in mind. Do early suggestions have a chance? I might do a search and find out.


----------



## Ibb

EDIT: Removed after considering the recent contest rules. My bad. Also... Ahem. Is there a way I can delete my posts?


----------



## epimetheus

I suggest:

Removed after considering the recent contest rules.

And:

Is there a way I can delete my posts?




Why not? Already have an idea for the latter...


----------



## SueC

Ibb - oh yes, this is familiar to me. I think you have to contact someone in admin to have it deleted. Once you post, you can change the content, as you must have done, but deleting it out of our hands. LOL.


----------



## SueC

Suggestions:


“We were about to give up and call it a night when somebody threw the girl off the bridge.” 
― *John D. MacDonald, *Darker Than Amber

“Just calm down and think, sir. Think. Where is your wife?” 
― *Stefania Mattana, *Into the Killer Sphere

(I don't know about this one )
“He knew at once it was a human bone, when he took it from the baby who was sitting on the floor chewing it.” 
― *Arnaldur Indridason, *Silence of the Grave


----------



## SueC

> The deadline is: 23:59 GMT (18:59 EST) on February 14th



I'm confused, or am I missing something. Was the deadline extended for the Grand Challenge? Good to see so many entries, but I thought the deadline was two days ago.


----------



## Pluralized

SueC said:


> I'm confused, or am I missing something. Was the deadline extended for the Grand Challenge? Good to see so many entries, but I thought the deadline was two days ago.



Typically the challenge deadline means the entries must be turned into the host by that time, then sometimes the host needs a day or so to format and post.


----------



## Harper J. Cole

Yes, there's a 2 day editing buffer, so the late entries have only just appeared.

All entries are in now. If you've sent me an entry and I haven't posted it, please let me know via PM; likewise, please inform me if you wanted your entry in the secure forum and I've placed it in the the public one.

HJC


----------



## Ibb

epimetheus said:


> And:
> 
> Is there a way I can delete my posts?



Seconded! And, to throw my hat in with the Grand Fiction woes--yeah. It's my own fault, but I was completely off on both LM's deadlines this month. I wanted to enter a piece into each one, so when I realized my error I had about an hour left before the deadline. Definitely wasn't able to stick the landing that I wanted in either piece. But I'm glad to have at least submitted something. And I like the foundations enough that I'm going to tinker with them in my own time and add their touched-up versions to my own personal collection of "LOOK AT THE STUFF I MADE!"

...And, with that, I also suggest: Look At the Stuff I Made! 

Good luck to all entrants for both contests. 

Oh, and PS: Godofwine, you're fantastic. Drop an EP or something, my dude. You have a wonderful voice.


----------



## wagtail

second: Look at the stuff I made!

suggest:
On Tuesdays I visit Mother


----------



## bazz cargo

Brexit: ten years after..


----------



## PiP

bazz cargo said:


> Brexit: ten years after..



I'll second that prompt.


----------



## Phil Istine

Farage balloons


----------



## velo

Phil Istine said:


> Farage balloons



The ones that don't fly and just sit around looking all frumpy and disgruntled for no apparent reason?


----------



## Phil Istine

velo said:


> The ones that don't fly and just sit around looking all frumpy and disgruntled for no apparent reason?



If you second it and it wins, you might find out


----------



## Pluralized

My favorite part of WF: Prompts. With that:

My Favorite Part of WF

Warden, I Want My Own Cell!

I've Have Diarrheha and a Boaner (sic)

Push Past the Pain, Penelope

Bark Till Bananas 

Games Fat People Play

Turd in the Punchbowl

I'll See Myself Out


----------



## Phil Istine

Second: Games fat people play


----------



## Arachne

Second - Warden I Want My Own Cell!


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Suggestions:
The Stairway in the Stars
Good Magic
Divine Darkness
The Devil is a Poser
Battery Acid


----------



## velo

Second these

The Stairway in the Stars
Divine Darkness
Battery Acid


----------



## Megan Pearson

Second: 

“We were about to give up and call it a night when somebody threw the girl off the bridge.” 
― *John D. MacDonald, *Darker Than Amber



Suggest:

She died, but that’s not all…

Silver and Gold Have I None

Crimson lay the sky when we awoke.


----------



## Theglasshouse

Second:

“We were about to give up and call it a night when somebody threw the girl off the bridge.” 
― John D. MacDonald, Darker Than Amber


----------



## Phil Istine

Ministry of Silly Prompts


----------



## velo

Phil Istine said:


> Ministry of Silly Prompts


----------



## Phil Istine

velo said:


>



Yes, that's what I had in mind.


----------



## SueC

This is what came up when googling images for  "Farage Baloons." Who knew? Apparently Phil knew! LOL.


----------



## Phil Istine

SueC said:


> This is what came up when googling images for  "Farage Baloons." Who knew? Apparently Phil knew! LOL.



I've never seen that picture 
What I had in mind was some comedic story about keeping out migrating birds due to bird flu.  'Farage balloons' seemed an apt name as it rhymes with barrage.  I mentioned the term 'Farage balloons' on Quora several months ago and I'd never seen the term anywhere else.  I wonder if it originated with me, though I'm sure I'm not the only one who might have thought of it.


----------



## bdcharles

I’ll put the poll up tomorrow


----------



## Arachne

Can anyone tell me how long the judging period is for the grand competition? Also, how does the public vote work?

Arachne


----------



## velo

Arachne said:


> Can anyone tell me how long the judging period is for the grand competition? Also, how does the public vote work?
> 
> Arachne



I, too, await
with breath unbated
For scores unleashed,
criticisms untainted 
by bias or name,
to know
who wins this most honest of games.


----------



## Megan Pearson

Suggest: 



velo said:


> this most honest of games.


----------



## Harper J. Cole

The poll for the GFC is now up. Please take a look and vote.

HJC


----------



## bazz cargo

Coffee shop? What does one do to get a latte round here?


----------



## Arachne

bazz cargo said:


> Coffee shop? What does one do to get a latte round here?



They make a good one at the Odeon Costa in Trowbridge, if you can wade through the chavs in the park to get there  

Arachne


----------



## velo

bazz cargo said:


> Coffee shop? What does one do to get a latte round here?



Starb....oh wait, do you want _good_ coffee?


----------



## Amnesiac

Wanna' see people look a little confused? Go into a Starbucks and ask for a plain black coffee, and refuse to use _Grande, Venti, _or any of their other silly terms for _small, medium, _and _large._ 

It's like they don't know whether to just do it because you're the customer, or to run you out of there with torches and pitchforks. :-D


----------



## velo

The only one that makes any sense is venti, which is Italian for 20 and a venti is 20oz. But grande means large in Italian though it's actually the medium option and I'd love to find that great mind that thought to call the small option 'tall' so I can hurl a few other inappropriately-used terms at them.  

-Written from the 6th floor of SBUX HQ in Seattle.


----------



## bazz cargo

Arachne said:


> They make a good one at the Odeon Costa in Trowbridge, if you can wade through the chavs in the park to get there
> 
> Arachne


Uh oh! We may know each other.... I shall start wearing a disguise.


----------



## Arachne

bazz cargo said:


> Uh oh! We may know each other.... I shall start wearing a disguise.



It's no use, I'd recognise that fur anywhere, with or without the flat cap. 

Arachne


----------



## bazz cargo

All small dogs look alike in the dark....


----------



## Arachne

I only go out at night when I am gadding about as Arachne-girl, my super-charged alter ego, so...shit-hot night vision...

Arachne


----------



## bazz cargo

Hence the disguise, I shall change my hat.... Maybe a false moustache.


----------



## bdcharles

Holy £$%^! I almost forgot - I need judges! Who would like to judge in March's comp?


----------



## velo

bdcharles said:


> Holy £$%^! I almost forgot - I need judges! Who would like to judge in March's comp?



Since I haven't a single idea about the prompt I'll criticise those who do.


----------



## Arachne

bd, I wonder if it would be possible to ask for judges after the prompt voting is finished? That way, people who didn't get the prompt they wanted might decide to judge. I am in the position today where I may like to judge but only if my chosen prompt doesn't win.

Arachne


----------



## bdcharles

Arachne said:


> bd, I wonder if it would be possible to ask for judges after the prompt voting is finished? That way, people who didn't get the prompt they wanted might decide to judge. I am in the position today where I may like to judge but only if my chosen prompt doesn't win.
> 
> Arachne



Yep it's certainly possible. I'll look into doing that next time.


----------



## SueC

bd, I'll judge too.


----------



## Megan Pearson

Hey BD, would like to, but too busy this month! Probably won't have the time to write an entry, either. Maybe next month?


----------



## bdcharles

Thanks girls 

By the way scores for Feb should be up tonight or tomorrow latest


----------



## bdcharles

bdcharles said:


> Thanks girls
> 
> By the way scores for Feb should be up tonight or tomorrow latest



And here they are!


----------



## bdcharles

Waiting on those 650-worders, guys


----------



## bdcharles

Ticking down the hours on the March LM, everybody. Tidy your grammar, remove those filler words, bring your inciting incident to the fire - and submit!


----------



## velo

Further alliteration....bring your inciting incident to the incandescent incendiary instantiation of the LM to incentivise ignition of imaginative items

Ok, it doesn't really work but I'm on a conf call at work and I'm bored.


----------



## bdcharles

OK, everybody stay calm! There's no need to panic! March Literary Maneuvers is over so judges if you could start putting together your reviews and collating your scores, that'd be grand. Meanwhile, let's get some more prompts. Suggest ones yourself, second others' suggestions to get them added to a poll. Anything goes. Nothing off the table. 

I'll start: 

Suggest: Beauty as bewitchment


----------



## Pluralized

Thurston Howell's Thong

Barnacles on Bessie's Backside

Grotesque, from that Perspective

Away She Flew

Stab Me in the Eyes

Pickin' Scabs for Jesus

A Cosmic Trigger Warning

Black Dracula Bled Out


----------



## Arachne

Suggest - Ticket to Ride

Arachne


----------



## Tim

"You think that's funny?" it asked.

They feast on human emotion.

"Fate said I could talk to you now."

"Of course we kill them...Dumbass!"


----------



## SueC

The Butterfly Effect


----------



## Phil Istine

*Seconded:*

Pickin' Scabs for Jesus

and

The Butterfly Effect


*My prompt suggestions: 
*
Gloss over

Police siren

Sex on wheels


----------



## velo

"Thurston Howell's Thong"


----------



## sigmadog

1. Ready. Set. Kill.

2. Tick Talk

3. Acronym Acrimony


----------



## velo

Second:
Butterfly Effect

Suggest: 
Native song
To speak with the ancestors
Medicine for the people


----------



## Kebe

Suggest: The little scientist

Second: The Butterfly Effect


----------



## Tim

*Seconded:*

Sex on wheels


----------



## H.Brown

Suggestion: off the deep end...


----------



## bdcharles

I'll run the suggestions and seconds til after the weekend. Keep em coming til Monday. Then, a poll...


----------



## bdcharles

Scores? Wot? Nah. Scores on the doors? Football scores? Martin Scorsese, the Italian Job? Yeah. Wot? Dunno. Looking to score, are ya? Depends 'oos askin', dunnit. Wot? Yeah, alright then, 'ere ya go, no need to get excited, dan't say I never give you nuffink


----------



## bdcharles

Prompts for April are GO!


----------



## bdcharles

While we're voting, who would like to judge?


----------



## bdcharles

Who wants to try their hand at judging April's LM? I'll do it so you won't be alone.

Who will stand with me? :raisedsword:


----------



## Arachne

I’ll stand with you, bd! *grabs crossbow (and lembas bread cos it might be a long one). 

Arachne


----------



## -xXx-

bdcharles said:


> Who wants to try their hand at judging April's LM? I'll do it so you won't be alone.
> 
> Who will stand with me? :raisedsword:



_*pledges to pull all nighter, if req'd*
*heads drum brigade*
*auditions candidates*
*nods at brearer-of-bread*
_


----------



## Megan Pearson

Ohmygoodness, I would love to, but I have this thing called a deadline fast approaching. If I get my project turned in soon enough, I'm hoping I can at the least join in this month with a submission. 



(Okay, you say, so go get it done! I would love to, but it's 2 am and I just don't produce well after midnight. 
Sleep? what's that? I gave it up years ago...)


----------



## bdcharles

April's Literary Maneuvers comp, "The Butterfly Effect" is now live. 

Let chaos reign!


----------



## SueC

Come one, come all, let your butterflies free - and have an EFFECT! Write, submit.


----------



## bdcharles

Submit! The window of opportunity to effect global change on a massive scale from the tiniest actions grows, well, ever tinier. Submit!


----------



## velo

Heck of a showing this month!  I count a dozen so far...


----------



## bdcharles

Ok comp’s closed everyone. We judges will tot up our scores. Meanwhile, if you could go ahead & come up with some prompts for May, and think about whether you’d like to judge, you know ... that’d be great...


----------



## velo

Suggest:
At sea
Silence
Notre Dame


----------



## SueC

Suggest:
leave-taking

Second:
Notre Dame


----------



## luckyscars

Notre Dame is French for “Our Lady”, right? Maybe go with the translation to create ambiguity and avoid ten stories about a specific church? Just a thought.


----------



## Bardling

Suggest:
Monument
Entropy 
Recovery

Second:
Silence
Notre Dame


----------



## Pluralized

Prompts:

The Whore of Notre Dame

Anger Through Translation

Black Dracula Coughed

Alimony Payments to Andrew Dice Clay

Butt Crack in the Middle

A.L.F. the 80's Bad Puppet

Pootie Pucker

Dank Stranger

Don't Hate the Slayer, Hate the Clang

Sniff, Sniff, It's Time

Yodel me a Death Metal Tune, you Bastard


----------



## ppsage

Second The Whore of Notre Dame


----------



## Megan Pearson

luckyscars said:


> Notre Dame is French for “Our Lady”, right? Maybe go with the translation to create ambiguity and avoid ten stories about a specific church? Just a thought.



*Second *
Our Lady

*Suggest*
When in Paris

Something for Mother

In Honor of _(some major nat'l holiday in your own country in May)_

We were camping when...

Fireflies & Flashlights

Once Upon A Time there was A _(fill-in favorite verb)_ Robot...


----------



## Tim

Second--Notre Dame.

Suggest--A lie becomes the truth.


----------



## Rookish

Second: Silence

Suggest: The year 2345


----------



## Candervalle

Second:

Dank Stranger

Suggest:

Callused


----------



## bdcharles

OK let's have a couple more days of suggestions and secondings, and I'll then put a poll up maybe around thursday. Meantime, who would like to judge? YOU would. YOU would like to judge


----------



## Stygian

Looks like I'm late to the party. I'll down the rest of the spiked punch and divine up a few topic suggestions.

1) Love and Death

2) 6th Sense

3) Dying Embers


----------



## sigmadog

• A Dream of Nothing

• The Pools of Regret

• Sentimental Dead

• Girls of Summer


----------



## -xXx-

second:


velo said:


> Suggest:
> At sea





Bardling said:


> Suggest:
> Entropy





Pluralized said:


> Prompts:
> Yodel me a Death Metal Tune, you Bastard


will this work,
or do you really want flash(es)?
***do not click this link, if you are not familiar with genre***
jussayin'




Rookish said:


> Suggest: The year 2345



suggest:

mantastic mantasy

divest

bob


----------



## bdcharles

The poll is up, and waiting for your electoral caresses...


----------



## bdcharles

"I need judges —
Give me them!"
​_ — Anonymous



 _​


----------



## velo

"where are the judges?"


----------



## Candervalle

I can judge.


----------



## meegads

I'm willing to judge, if you're still in need. *gulp*


----------



## bdcharles

Comp's up, scores imminent, judges poised - go!


----------



## Rookish

Aaargh were be the reckoning capain?


----------



## SueC




----------



## Bard_Daniel

Yarrrrg, be enterin' dis kontest mateyyyy, ARRRRGGG!


----------



## bdcharles

Rookish said:


> Aaargh were be the reckoning capain?



The scores? Got the lot and will post today. Many many apologies everyone - lots going on atm...


----------



## bdcharles

bdcharles said:


> The scores? Got the lot and will post today. Many many apologies everyone - lots going on atm...



Told you.


----------



## godofwine

With me serving 12 years in the navy, 'At Sea' will likely be something personal. So many memories, so many potential stories. USS Clark (FFG-11), USS Estocin (FFG-15) and all of the sailors I met in my time.


----------



## bdcharles

*

*​
Breaking News! Breaking News!*

At sea, at sea. _Mare Tranquillitatis; _Tranquility  Base, lost on a metaphoric ocean. Scientists report that the surface of Neptune is  presided over by six-hundred kilometer high waves of liquid neon. Love psychologists propose that fully a third of all relationships are forged on doomed Mediterranean or Nordic cruises.

Get  cracking though - the levels are dropping. Experts suggest that a giant  marine plughole has opened up somewhere near Challenger Deeps and is  chucking trillions of gallons of water onto the magma layer by the  second. Earth-as-ruined-husk stage expected somewhere around midnight on  the 16th. What can save us? _Who _can save us?


***​
*More Breaking News!*


​


----------



## luckyscars

I'll volunteer to judge the next LM as I have now entered three in a row and time to give back


----------



## godofwine

75 minutes to go and 49 words left to cut. It feels like I'm killing my babies. Thank God this isn't Alabama or I would face a lifetime in jail as I screamed, "my words are my babies my words are my babies"


----------



## godofwine

17 words to cut and 59 minutes to go. Almost home


----------



## godofwine

Done. Ready to post as soon as Firefox pops up. 650 are hell. Don't usually surpass the limit, I was just over 1000 words before I started cutting


----------



## Bard_Daniel

I made it on time. That was a close one.


----------



## godofwine

Bard_Daniel said:


> I made it on time. That was a close one.



It was. Very close. I missed a movie premier to finish my story and have it in on time. Okay, it was a free ticket to see Booksmart, but still I had a ticket


----------



## meegads

Can I just say how much I am enjoying reading everyone's stories?  There are some SERIOUSLY talented writers here.


----------



## Megan Pearson

I 'missed the boat' on this month's LM challenge. But I am now officially done with graduate school!!! So it was worth missing the boat.

Are we ready to start figuring out what next month's theme will be? How about:

- Things that are Not

- What Happened on the Way to Work

- It went _bump_ in the night

- The Great Misadventure

- Lighting Never Strikes Twice

- We Found Him in the Park  _[-- a nod to Dr. Seuss]_


----------



## Fatclub

Megan Pearson said:


> -
> 
> - It went _bump_ in the night


Surely everyone will want this!


----------



## bdcharles

Megan Pearson said:


> I 'missed the boat' on this month's LM challenge. But I am now officially done with graduate school!!! So it was worth missing the boat.
> 
> Are we ready to start figuring out what next month's theme will be? How about:
> 
> - Things that are Not
> 
> - What Happened on the Way to Work
> 
> - It went _bump_ in the night
> 
> - The Great Misadventure
> 
> - Lighting Never Strikes Twice
> 
> - We Found Him in the Park  _[-- a nod to Dr. Seuss]_



Yes, we are - thanks Megan. Everyone, let's get some prompts going while the scores enter the points factory. Judges for June too, please step forward


----------



## epimetheus

Megan Pearson said:


> But I am now officially done with graduate school!!!



Congratulations. What did you study?



bdcharles said:


> Judges for June too, please step forward



I'll give it a go.


----------



## Megan Pearson

epimetheus said:


> Congratulations. What did you study?



Christian Apologetics. I studied theology and applied philosophy in the logical defense of the Christian faith.

I absolutely loved what I studied and wish every Christian could have such an opportunity. But alas, life doesn't always afford such opportunities. That's why I want to bring what I've learned back to my church; already I've gained some teaching experience. My desire is to incorporate it into my writing. I have plans for a book--an academic study--related to naturalism and literature, and I was already writing fiction dealing with apologetic themes before I entered grad school. Because the problem of evil and the nature of free will have interested me greatly, I am considering going on to become an ethicist. 

Thank you for the congrats! It was a lot of hard work.



bdcharles said:


> Judges for June too, please step forward :smile:



Okay, count me in! My goal is to make five before the year is out.


----------



## Rookish

Suggest: Pleasure Planet


----------



## SueC

Here's my suggestions for prompts:

1. Baggage
2. The First Time
3. Sharing a Bed


----------



## bdcharles

Second:
Things That Are Not
Pleasure Planet
Sharing A Bed


Suggest:

Flesh Fiction
How To Stop A Heart Attack
The National Iconography Of Death
The Art Of Rocket-Building


----------



## luckyscars

Suggest: “My body, my choice.”


----------



## Ma'am

a story from the afterlife
a surprise twin


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Second:
The National Iconography of Death
a surprise twin

Suggest:
Miracle Nemesis 
The Last Alive
Toothpaste on the Mirror
The Devil is a Poser


----------



## Megan Pearson

Second: The Last Alive


----------



## Ma'am

Second: We found him in the park.


----------



## meegads

(Is there a limit to seconds?  lol)

Second:

Things that are Not

It went _bump_ in the night

The Great Misadventure

We Found Him in the Park 

How To Stop A Heart Attack

The Last Alive

Toothpaste on the Mirror



Suggest:

It's All Fun and Games Until Someone Ends Up In a Cone

How To Lose A Toe


----------



## meegads

PS: I'll judge again!  That was fun.


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Suggest:
Expendable Minion
The Society of the Clowns


----------



## godofwine

I don't know why I resorted to 3rd person POV rather than 1st person. It was a true story, 100% - 14 May 1999. Probably more frightening in real life than I was able to convey. I wonder what it would have looked like had I got with the 1st person POV vs the direction I did.


----------



## godofwine

Ma'am said:


> Second: We found him in the park.



Third: We found him in the park.


----------



## Bard_Daniel

Can I partake in the voting? 

Fourth: We Found Him in the Park


----------



## Alpine

Dang, I am bummed I missed out on "At Sea."  I actually had written a story but couldn't post it, because I didn't realize I needed 10 posts to post in this sub until I was done with the story.


----------



## Fatclub

Alpine said:


> Dang, I am bummed I missed out on "At Sea."  I actually had written a story but couldn't post it, because I didn't realize I needed 10 posts to post in this sub until I was done with the story.


You can always post it in the next comp and adapt it very slightly depending on the title of the prompt. For instance my first story was for "Moon Landing" and I'd set it at a *beach* prom. My second was "Footprints in the Snow" - I could have had "Footprints in the *Sand*" and set it on a beach. My third was "Warden, I want a New Cell" - I could have set it early 19th century on a *prison-ship* heading from UK to Australia


----------



## bdcharles

Keep suggesting and seconding, everyone, & I'll put a poll up over the weekend


----------



## Fatclub

Fatclub said:


> You can always post it in the next comp and adapt it very slightly depending on the title of the prompt. For instance my first story was for "Moon Landing" and I'd set it at a *beach* prom. My second was "Footprints in the Snow" - I could have had "Footprints in the *Sand*" and set it on a beach. My third was "Warden, I want a New Cell" - I could have set it early 19th century on a *prison-ship* heading from UK to Australia


The further thought occurs that TEASE is very close to being an anagram of At Sea. Would that have been allowable?

btw, I'll third and fourth "It went Bump in the Night"


----------



## Megan Pearson

meegads said:


> (Is there a limit to seconds? lol)




Don't think so, but there is a point of diminishing returns. For example, let's say we get ten suggestions with ten people voting. Statistically, we have the potential of each person voting once for each entry and no entry gaining more than one vote. The odds of this happening increase as the entry suggestions out number the number of people we have to vote on them.

I haven't seen that this has ever been a problem, so I wouldn't worry about it happening. 


(Although, if we move from statistical inquiry to logic, anticipating future events based on past performance is in itself a fallacy--so, who knows?)


----------



## bdcharles

Prompts are up - vote now!

There's no limit to seconds, but there's no real difference between one person or a hundred people seconding a choice; they'll both go into the poll as equals, though generally if lots of people second a choice then lots of people will likely vote for it.

Anyway, I have 2 judges in *meegads *and *Megan Pearson*. Want to join their number? Sign up here -> ________________


----------



## epimetheus

Megan Pearson said:


> (Although, if we move from statistical inquiry to logic, anticipating future events based on past performance is in itself a fallacy--so, who knows?)



Why is anticipating future events based on past performance a logical fallacy? I can see there's an assumption that the future will behave similarly to the past, and that doesn't necessarily hold, but i can't see the logical fallacy.



bdcharles said:


> Anyway, I have 2 judges in *meegads *and *Megan Pearson*. Want to join their number? Sign up here -> ________________



I'll judge.


----------



## Rookish

I'm willing to judge as well.


----------



## bdcharles

epimetheus said:


> I'll judge.





Rookish said:


> I'm willing to judge as well.



Great thanks guys. Got a full panel of 4


----------



## velo

Apologies to all readers and entrants, I was very late with scores this month.  Heavy work load and then I lost the scores in a stupid "didn't save the file before rebooting" blunder and had to re-do them.


----------



## SueC




----------



## velo

Exactly.


----------



## velo

*Judge the judge*

I have a question for those whose works I've judged.  I've noticed a trend over the past several LMs in that I tend to score a little less generously than others.  I realise that much of this process is highly subjective and it is perhaps nothing more than my being a different type of reader than the other judges but I'd like to be judged on my judging to assess community reaction.  

For context- overall my scores averaged 4.35 points less than other judges, or appx 21.76% less.  

Do you, as contestants, feel that I'm overly harsh in my scores/reviews?


----------



## bdcharles

I have no problem with your scores and reviews. There are pieces of writing you gel with, and others you don't, and your scores seem to reflect that.


----------



## epimetheus

No, it's fine. As long as it's consistent it won't affect the results in terms of position.

We could start normalising scores to correct for judges' inclinations, but that feels unnecessarily complicated. The feedback is the important part.


----------



## Fatclub

Velo
I brought up to BD a few weeks ago (in a PM I think, when I was judging), that if there was a huge difference in my high marks and low marks, and other judges put all the entries a couple of points from each other, then I was effectively deciding who won or lost. 

Though this didn't happen on May's scores. When I was about to judge I looked a few previous months up and spotted that normally someone who judges and awards extra low _and _high points is more influential than one or two other judges giving everyone between 15 and 17 points.
I think it's good you give lowish marks as long as occasionally you give a high one if a story really grabs you, nothing wrong with that.

I would rather go on _placements_ than spag scores and tone etc.
3 points for 1st, 2 points for 2nd, 1 point for 3rd - everyone else is appreciated but unlucky!


----------



## Megan Pearson

epimetheus said:


> Why is anticipating future events based on past performance a logical fallacy? I can see there's an assumption that the future will behave similarly to the past, and that doesn't necessarily hold, but i can't see the logical fallacy.



It's the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy (i.e., false cause fallacy), where one event is not casually related to a subsequent event. In other words, just because something occurred previously doesn't mean it is the cause. For example, childhood vaccines are not the cause of autism. The two events--the vaccine and the diagnosis--are unrelated. 

Similarly, with regards to the LM Challenge participation rate, if we anticipate future events based on past performance we might want to say X% of the total WF members participated in each of these twelve months last year, so we can in turn anticipate the same proportion of the total population participating in each month this year (whether it increases or decreases). However, it's difficult to say anything for sure about human behavior until it happens, or maybe there is additional information or variables unaccounted for. So, while we might use statistics as a general guide to anticipating participation rates, the fallacy still stands. This month's LM Challenge will be attended by however many persons freely choose to participate _this_ _month_--and not necessarily because they have (or have not) previously participated. 

Does that make sense?



Curiously, we are having a fundraiser at church this coming weekend that illustrates this. Last year, they used the figures from two years before to estimate the participation rate. Apparently, word of mouth spread and last year's event generated something like 400% above their expectations. If past performance is a predictor of future events, then do we anticipate another 400% increase? Of course not. (Although, that would be nice). There are other variables involved. So, this year we're going to employ another statistically proven method and just 'wing it'.


----------



## velo

Fatclub said:


> I would rather go on _placements_ than spag scores and tone etc.
> 3 points for 1st, 2 points for 2nd, 1 point for 3rd - everyone else is appreciated but unlucky!



Boy, that's an interesting idea.  Make it more of a qualitative score instead of quantitative which actually makes more logical sense given how subjective this whole process it.  Each story gets a ranking from each judge.  If there are 5 submissions then you must pick a position from 1-5 (non-repeating) for each story.  However that mathematically increases the likelihood of ties based on the decreased number of scoring outcomes.  Even in my random allocation (see img) there was a tie.  


Anyone else like the idea?


----------



## Fatclub

velo said:


> Even in my random allocation (see img) there was a tie.
> 
> 
> Anyone else like the idea?
> 
> View attachment 23818


If there's a tie then perhaps spag and tone come into play for the final vote (BDCharles).
I'm not saying I'd rather read a great story even badly punctuated than a boring one well punctuated. But there's flexibility for a judge (reader) to go with his/her gut rather than his/her calculator.


----------



## luckyscars

velo said:


> I have a question for those whose works I've judged.  I've noticed a trend over the past several LMs in that I tend to score a little less generously than others.  I realise that much of this process is highly subjective and it is perhaps nothing more than my being a different type of reader than the other judges but I'd like to be judged on my judging to assess community reaction.
> 
> For context- overall my scores averaged 4.35 points less than other judges, or appx 21.76% less.
> 
> Do you, as contestants, feel that I'm overly harsh in my scores/reviews?
> 
> View attachment 23813



I don’t think you’re harsh, Velo, but I do think your scoring is inconsistent.

For example, based on SPaG (which is probably the only really objective metric) your scores are all over the place: You gave bdcharles’ SPaG a 4 despite there being zero evident SPaG issues in his piece (your comments certainly didn’t indicate any) but then gave bardling and SueC both a 4.5 for SPaG despite the review mentioning both of their pieces having issues in this area. There are numerous such examples of this sort of thing. 

I know you said had computer problems but I do think if you hadn’t been able to provide accurate scoring it would have been better to either score everything with either zero or maximum so it wasn’t distorting the scores of other judges. Your feedback itself is generally great, it just doesn’t stack up with the numbers. 

No big deal, but you asked, so I am being honest with you.


----------



## velo

Fair points, thank you.  I think I sometimes mix up strict grammar with TaV as I've noted these discrepancies as well.


----------



## velo

velo said:


> However that mathematically increases the likelihood of ties based on the decreased number of scoring outcomes.



Yeah, I did some calcs and this isn't really true save for smaller number sets.  Again, I'm not very smart.  You should probably ignore me.


----------



## Candervalle

velo said:


> I have a question for those whose works I've judged.  I've noticed a trend over the past several LMs in that I tend to score a little less generously than others.  I realise that much of this process is highly subjective and it is perhaps nothing more than my being a different type of reader than the other judges but I'd like to be judged on my judging to assess community reaction.
> 
> For context- overall my scores averaged 4.35 points less than other judges, or appx 21.76% less.
> 
> Do you, as contestants, feel that I'm overly harsh in my scores/reviews?
> 
> View attachment 23813



There was only one LM that I entered where you were a judge. Your scoring was fair and your review backed up your argument for that score. At least that was my experience. Judges' scores tend to vary wildly in some cases. It is nice when we have a full panel. Helps average out the extremes. As some of the others have already mentioned, consistency is key. Other than that, I wouldn't dwell on it too much. If you start scoring based on what other judges will score, then your scores wouldn't be genuine.


----------



## epimetheus

Megan Pearson said:


> It's the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy (i.e., false cause fallacy)...



Yeah, that makes sense - but only if we're trying to infer causality. Correlation does not imply causation, and all that good jazz. But we can make some reasonable estimates (we can quite safely estimate we won't get zero or more than 30 LM entrants this month for instance) - humans are quite predictable en masse, whole industries rely on it. As long as we don't confuse our models for reality it's usually OK.


----------



## bdcharles

epimetheus said:


> We could start normalising scores to correct for judges' inclinations, but that feels unnecessarily complicated. The feedback is the important part.



This is why we like to get a full deck of four judges - so the law of averages can do just that for us.


----------



## luckyscars

I do think there is a legit issue though of the segmented scoring (SPaG, TaV, Effect)

From what I can see at least 2/3 of those are supposed to be scored at least semi-objectively, not influenced by whether a judge _enjoys _the piece or not but whether the piece has good or bad SPaG and whether the tone and voice is strong (even if it's not necessarily their cup of tea). Then the 'effect' score is supposed to cover the general _je ne sais quoi _of the piece - whether to the judge's personal tastes the writing was impacting or not, and this way you get a blend of objective and subjective evaluation - I don't really see that being the case, though. Usually stories judges love don't get too badly dinged on SPaG even when there are glaring issues (like there usually are with mine) and stories judges clearly don't enjoy don't seemingly get much credit for at least being immaculately proof-read. 

I'm not criticizing the judges here at all, I just don't really see the point of the segmented scoring, and I imagine having to analyze several stories in three different ways must be time consuming for judges. So, why not just have a single score based on how good or bad the piece was overall and leave the pointing out of problem areas to the critique? If it's minor SPaG it hardly seems like it needs worrying about anyway and if its major it's going to factor into the Overall. Likewise with TaV. I don't even know why SPaG is given such standing here. Do we really think SPaG is as important or as difficult to get right as tone and voice? Because I don't...But it's worth the same points chunk? Just my .02.

(BTW I am aware I sound like an ass saying this being as I have not yet judged an LM... however just for the record I did volunteer to judge the last one, which it seems got overlooked, fortunately as it turned out as I ended up being extremely busy - offer still open for a future LM of course. No armchair quarterbacks here!)


----------



## Plasticweld

luckyscars said:


> (BTW I am aware I sound like an ass saying this being as I have not yet judged an LM... however just for the record I did volunteer to judge the last one, which it seems got overlooked, fortunately as it turned out as I ended up being extremely busy - offer still open for a future LM of course. No armchair quarterbacks here!)



Finding judges is the toughest part of running an LM. It will be a great day when the time comes, that an organizer could chose who they wanted to judge, rather than using only those who they could beg or trade favors with to judge. 

The bottom line is that any of the LMs offer someone a chance to have their work read and reviewed by their peers. It offers a real life response to your work and places to improve, which is the main desire of almost all of the new. members who sign on to the site. 

BD is correct, there is no substitute for having four judges, the varying styles  and values of the individuals is realistic and important.


----------



## bdcharles

Plasticweld said:


> It will be a great day when the time comes, that an organizer could chose who they wanted to judge, rather than using only those who they could beg or trade favors with to judge.



Rejoice!, for that day is come, where verily I have judges on standby.


----------



## bdcharles

Megan Pearson said:


> It's the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy (i.e., false cause fallacy), where one event is not casually related to a subsequent event. In other words, just because something occurred previously doesn't mean it is the cause. For example, childhood vaccines are not the cause of autism. The two events--the vaccine and the diagnosis--are unrelated.
> 
> Similarly, with regards to the LM Challenge participation rate, if we anticipate future events based on past performance we might want to say X% of the total WF members participated in each of these twelve months last year, so we can in turn anticipate the same proportion of the total population participating in each month this year (whether it increases or decreases). However, it's difficult to say anything for sure about human behavior until it happens, or maybe there is additional information or variables unaccounted for. So, while we might use statistics as a general guide to anticipating participation rates, the fallacy still stands. This month's LM Challenge will be attended by however many persons freely choose to participate _this_ _month_--and not necessarily because they have (or have not) previously participated.
> 
> Does that make sense?



It does, just not to me, _ergo _my head quite literally just exploded. 






luckyscars said:


> For example, based on SPaG (which is probably the only really objective metric) your scores are all over the place: You gave bdcharles’ SPaG a 4 despite there being zero evident SPaG issues in his piece (your comments certainly didn’t indicate any)





luckyscars said:


> I do think there is a legit issue though of the segmented scoring (SPaG, TaV, Effect)
> 
> From what I can see at least 2/3 of those are supposed to be scored at least semi-objectively, not influenced by whether a judge _enjoys _the piece or not but whether the piece has good or bad SPaG and whether the tone and voice is strong (even if it's not necessarily their cup of tea). Then the 'effect' score is supposed to cover the general _je ne sais quoi _of the piece - whether to the judge's personal tastes the writing was impacting or not, and this way you get a blend of objective and subjective evaluation - I don't really see that being the case, though. Usually stories judges love don't get too badly dinged on SPaG even when there are glaring issues (like there usually are with mine) and stories judges clearly don't enjoy don't seemingly get much credit for at least being immaculately proof-read.
> 
> I'm not criticizing the judges here at all, I just don't really see the point of the segmented scoring, and I imagine having to analyze several stories in three different ways must be time consuming for judges. So, why not just have a single score based on how good or bad the piece was overall and leave the pointing out of problem areas to the critique? If it's minor SPaG it hardly seems like it needs worrying about anyway and if its major it's going to factor into the Overall. Likewise with TaV. I don't even know why SPaG is given such standing here. Do we really think SPaG is as important or as difficult to get right as tone and voice? Because I don't...But it's worth the same points chunk? Just my .02.
> 
> (BTW I am aware I sound like an ass saying this being as I have not yet judged an LM... however just for the record I did volunteer to judge the last one, which it seems got overlooked, fortunately as it turned out as I ended up being extremely busy - offer still open for a future LM of course. No armchair quarterbacks here!)



I do agree; however at the end of the day judges are human, all too human. Some people may interpret clunk or _convolutia_ as grammar abuse. Others may be a little less far along their syntactic journey than the entrants they judge. Short of denying people the right to judge, I am not sure how to easily get around that. One thing I will look at though, as host of this comp, is re-booting the judging guide. I outline some thoughts on this below.

There's also the situation where things directly contradict one another, eg where, to achieve voice and effect you might need to mess with the grammar. Some writers may do this intentionally, others may naturally have a strong voice that arises from imperfections. Where, in these cases, do the points (or point-off) go? My ideal would be for these discrepancies to be discussed in the review, and the point allocations explained therein. So for example - and I've done this in the past - if someone writes "I just be a runnin out" and the voice is, I dunno, a well-defined kind of a down-home-country-type I will not knock them any grammar points and mention why when talking about voice; I may say the voice supports playing fast and loose with the grammar. However what if such a person genuinely talks, thinks, and writes like that. Again, I will address that in the review and say that furthermore this doubt will seep into my reading. Effect. If I am unsure about the writer's ability to truly deliver, the voice may still be tops and the grammar may support it but my suspension-of-disbelief, my immersion, is being threatened, so: I'll knock 'em an effect and tell them just why. 

So in my mind the points do interrelate because writing is subjective and complex and there are no really right or clear answers, but explanations should be given.


PS I've just had a thought. Let's have types of awards. The Grammarian's Needle goes to the highest spag-scorer, the T&V cup to the most convincingly bad speller, etc  

PPS luckyscars have you really never judged an LM? And worse, did I really overlook your offer? I can only apologise about that. I will take better care in future and would be thrilled to have you as a judge, in both host and entrant capacity.


----------



## SueC

> I'm not criticizing the judges here at all, I just don't really see the point of the segmented scoring, and I imagine having to analyze several stories in three different ways must be time consuming for judges.* So, why not just have a single score based on how good or bad the piece was overall and leave the pointing out of problem areas to the critique?* If it's minor SPaG it hardly seems like it needs worrying about anyway and if its major it's going to factor into the Overall. Likewise with TaV. I don't even know why SPaG is given such standing here. Do we really think SPaG is as important or as difficult to get right as tone and voice? Because I don't...But it's worth the same points chunk? Just my .02.



I do think I like this idea of LuckyScars. Since, as far as I know, none of us are capable of a professional critique and therefore must rely on how we feel about a certain piece to be able to say anything at all. Try as we might, it may be impossible for us to be completely fair to a story that is not to our liking, or not one we would voluntarily have read. As far as SPaGs are concerned, sometimes an absolutely pristine story (in that regard) will leave the reader bored to tears, so what is the point of even having that as criteria? I understand if it's really bad - and not intentionally - and has to be addressed, but as LS said, that can be handled in the review itself and reflected in the general score. It would also address the issue of dialogue or dialect, etc.

The best score is 20. So you either give it a 20, if it meets all of a judges criteria for an excellent, well-written piece, or the judge takes points away for something not so excellent and comes up with an 18. Then he or she tells why. I'm getting relaxed just thinking about this. LOL! 

So, I am in favor of compartmentalizing the review, as opposed to using it as a tool to come up with a sore. My two cents.


----------



## velo

I think if we stay with the multi-tiered scoring perhaps, as bd mentioned, a revamp of the judging guide would be in order- be more specific to say that SpaG is only about pure form such as spelling and punctuation.  TaV is a little more challenging.  I've looked back over some of my scores and realised I've scored TaV up or down based on how well I liked the piece or had it impact me, which should be the score for effect.  The more I look at the whole system the more I'd vote for a revamp...there is a lot of squishy grey area on top of the already highly subjective process of judging writing.  

I do like the ranking system because each LM is its own animal.  We don't compare against some objective standard across various moths, each stands alone so the only thing that really matters is the judges' subjective response to a story relative to the other stories submitted that month.  

I think I'm also leaning in favour of having judges able to be a part of the competition.  This is an entirely selfish motivation, I was very happy with my submission last month and it rankled a bit knowing it wasn't really in the comp.  We could make the submissions anonymous on top of that to remove bias.


----------



## Megan Pearson

Having done this a few times now, I see a lot value in the categories that we have in the Scoring Guideline. Another way to think about it would be mechanics (SPaG), style (T&V), and craft (Effect). At the time I began doing the LM Challenge, thinking about the story I wrote as I wrote it from this scoring perspective did not help. What did help (tremendously!) was using this guideline in thinking about other people's stories as I read them. Once I did that, I found I then began to be more careful / thoughtful about some of the choices I made in the new stories I wrote. Because it was so helpful, I am highly in favor of keeping our present scoring guidelines. 



Back in March I had some further thoughts that explored the structure of our writing submissions from the perspective of what our present scroing guidelines provide and proposed that 15 points reflect a (more-or-less) unbiased approached and that the remaining 5 points be reserved for our subjective opinion. It looks like this would be helpful in this present conversation, so I've reposted it here:


Here are our current judging guidelines (in blue):
*1. Spelling and Grammar (SPaG): Based on a scale **from** 1 - 5*
Unformatted / Illegible / Consistent errors / minor errors / Grammatically flawless 
*
2. Tone and Voice: Based on a scale of 1 - 5*
No style / uninteresting tone / inconsistent tone / Strong tone / Perfectly fitting or unique style and technique.

*3. Effect: Based on a scale of 1 - 10*
You to decide: How did the story touch you? Consider the theme connection. Provide a brief review of the story as well. See previous score threads for examples of this. Understand this competition is about fun, so have a good time with it.


& Here Is My Proposal:
Okay, so here are my thoughts. Beginning with *SPaG* & *T&V*. If SPaG is consistent, it more or less results in a consistent T&V. T&V is further influenced by word choice, pov, repetition, etc. So while SPaG focuses on the mechanical, T&V is getting more into craft & use. As such, I've noticed in the judging feedback that SPaG & T&V tend to result in fairly consistent scores across the board. This leads me to believe these are fairly unbiased categories.

I propose splitting *Effect* (How we are moved) into two categories. Here's my reasoning:

*3A. Effect (evaluation):* 1-5 Consider the theme connection. Provide a brief review of the story as well. 
This asks the judge to write a synopsis in his own words about what's written on the page. Sure, there is some interpretive subjectivity here, but it's limited. I propose also thinking of this as, 'what is the effect of all of the elements--SPaG, T&V--working together in concert? Is it harmonious? Or, does the conclusion not follow?' It's a question of evaluating the story's internal consistency. And I think this is already the case here; I'm just separating the scoring schema on structure from the reactive element so that the reader (& writer) may get better picture of how well all the pieces fit together as a whole. 

*3B. Effect (reaction): **1-5 * How did the story touch you? Understand this competition is about fun, so have a good time with it.
To me, this should be the only purely reactive element, where we share how it moved us and what our opinion was of the piece.

I think that by splitting the *Effect* into two subcategories we can give better, positive criticism/feedback that focuses a bit more strongly on how well the piece stands on its own merits than on the judges' preferences. Also, limiting the judges' purely subjective responses to its own category, I think it helps _unmuddy_ the waters for both writer and judge in what the judge really thought about the piece. It adds clarity.


----------



## luckyscars

Megan Pearson said:


> Having done this a few times now, I see a lot value in the categories that we have in the Scoring Guideline. Another way to think about it would be mechanics (SPaG), style (T&V), and craft (Effect). A[SNIP].



I sense the problem is scoring those categories accurately is only part of the puzzle. If the whole point of this is to help people improve, isn't it more important to explain the reasoning behind the scores?

What value is it to a writer to see they got a 3/5 in something as vague as 'Tone & Voice' or 'effect' if the judge doesn't then explain clearly what it was about the tone & voice that led them to that score? I don't think there is any. And IMO it isn't fair to expect judges to explain three different scores (never mind more than three...) for as many as ten different pieces of work.

It's not really about revamping the judging guide, either. That's fine, but the issue is with the system and unintended consequences: Making the scoring system simpler and quicker to execute on will make judging far more attractive to people like me who don't have time to analyze all these different stories at that kind of depth. I would be more inclined to judge if I could worry less about disseminating my thoughts into scores and more about communicating to the writer my immediate reactions as to what I think worked vs what didn't. Kind of like what a reader, agent, or publisher would.

 So...a simpler scoring system (one score - Overall Rating) will make it easier to recruit judges, which will probably make the whole thing better. Better recruitment of judges and you could then have a bigger panel...with more feedback. There's no reason four has to be 'a full slate'. Have ten judges. Who wouldn't like ten different opinions on their story?


----------



## epimetheus

Maybe i'm the only one, but i like the current format. 

I find the SPaG section particularly useful as i have never formally learnt grammar, relying on intuition instead. Comma splices and punctuation around quotations are just some of things the judges have pointed out to me.


----------



## bdcharles

Megan Pearson said:


> If SPaG is consistent, it more or less results in a consistent T&V.



Does it???


----------



## Fatclub

luckyscars said:


> So...a simpler scoring system (one score - Overall Rating) will make it easier to recruit judges, which will probably make the whole thing better. Better recruitment of judges and you could then have a bigger panel...with more feedback. There's no reason four has to be 'a full slate'. Have ten judges. Who wouldn't like ten different opinions on their story?


Surely this is the way to go. When I judged I wasn't confident enough to criticise other people's spag issues. There were mistakes that I wasn't sure were mistakes. I thought maybe I shouldn't have volunteered.

As an avid reader surely I can judge as a reader, not a schoolmaster. I can still say I'm marking someone down because their SPaG was tripping me up. As someone said earlier, if a story's boring as hell but perfectly written they could guarantee themselves 15 points.

As I also said about my own winning story in the May comp, there's less chance of me tripping up, SPaG-wise, with such a short story and a judge could understandably deduct points for that if there was one overall reader's rating.  

And yes, nothing wrong with ten judges - I'm sure that would shrink to 5 or 6 by Scores time.

Oh, finally when I judged, that month had been anonymous and I was a bit surprised at who-wrote-what at exposure time. I do think my scores would have been slightly kinder to some if I'd known. Not fair, I know. But I didn't realise until I saw the names responsible. I do think there's a difference in the confidence of the reader if he/she/it is familiar with the author.


----------



## bdcharles

To summarise, I'm seeing three different options presented:

1) Leave the LM judging as is
2) split effect into two subsections - evaluation, and reaction
3) one score - overall rating
4) Placements: 3 points for 1st, 2 points for 2nd, 1 point for 3rd

Give me a nudge if there's any that I missed but I do rather feel a poll coming on! All seem to suggest additional explanation of why the score is what it is, which is sound, though let's have a little more discussion about it for the time being. We can always pilot the different ways of doing it, to see how they fly. Just to add my view in: one think I always have to consider is, what workload does it add? I find if something becomes more labour intensive I may be less inclined to engage with it. Just something to think about.


----------



## luckyscars

bdcharles said:


> Does it???



First I heard of it. 

I just had a story sent back to me 'accepted subject to revisions' by a publisher for their yearly anthology, telling me they loved the story though wanted a slightly different ending (yeuch) and needed me to address 'a few' spag issues. There were literally forty-seven instances of bad spag in the six thousand words that somehow slipped through three self-edits. Yet this not only did not deter them but they kept talking about how much they liked the 'feel' of the piece. This leads me to conclude that while SPaG is important, it's not a dealbreaker if there are issues so long as the story itself is sufficiently strong.

I think what Meagan means is that poor SPaG can take the reader 'out' of the story by acting as a distraction or otherwise annoying the reader. Of course that's true, but it's got nothing to do with TaV really.


----------



## bdcharles

Fatclub said:


> Oh, finally when I judged, that month had been anonymous and I was a bit surprised at who-wrote-what at exposure time. I do think my scores would have been slightly kinder to some if I'd known. Not fair, I know. But I didn't realise until I saw the names responsible. I do think there's a difference in the confidence of the reader if he/she/it is familiar with the author.



This is an interesting point and I'm sure it's bedevilled many an online writing comp. How to avoid upscoring your friends, or whatever. Question to you, Fatclub - why would knowing have affected your score? What went through your mind when you saw these stories by unknown authors. Did you downscore them, or might your score have been more unbiased and level with what you read anonymously?


----------



## Plasticweld

luckyscars said:


> So...a simpler scoring system (one score - Overall Rating) will make it easier to recruit judges, which will probably make the whole thing better. Better recruitment of judges and you could then have a bigger panel...with more feedback. There's no reason four has to be 'a full slate'. Have ten judges. Who wouldn't like ten different opinions on their story?




This can only come from someone who has never run an LM here.  I would have to beg to find judges, trade with other members who ran LMs to judge for them, if they would judge for me.  Send out tons of requests asking for help.  I nominate Lucky to be the next organizer of any contest here on the site. 

Much of your suggestions are meaningless until you've done the job.  While I appreciate your enthusiasm, it is like taking parenting advice from someone who has never raised children.  For all those who offer suggestions, I hope to see you listed as judges for any of the next contests. 


There is an always be a human factor in judging something that is subjective.  There will never be clear lines or consistent responses to any creative process, or we we all love the same art work, the same book and even the same woman.  Bring your thoughts and actions to the next organizer, volunteer to help judge, work with the organizer on the frame work. 


The hardest part of running any LM is finding the judges, not running the contest.


----------



## Fatclub

bdcharles said:


> This is an interesting point and I'm sure it's bedevilled many an online writing comp. How to avoid upscoring your friends, or whatever. Question to you, Fatclub - *why would knowing have affected your score?* What went through your mind when you saw these stories by unknown authors. Did you downscore them, or might your score have been more unbiased and level with what you read anonymously?


Maybe it wouldn't have. Though maybe it would, and also affected my comments as well as my scoring. For instance, if I'm giving someone a low mark like 3/20 (which I did) I maybe wouldn't if I'd read a few good pieces by them in this forum. I probably would have upped the score a bit and been less brutal with my comments because they would have been more real/familiar and deserving of my emotional care. I think my attitude would have been colder when seeing an authors name I'm not familiar with. Also if someone's given me plenty of likes, thanks, compliments, and feel-good vibes, I would have to be a robot for this not to have an even subliminal effect.

I think in a lot of the 'arts', critics are kinder to people they are _already_ fans of. I see this in film reviews, book reviews, music, etc.

Another thing, as I've mentioned before, is if three judges marks everyone between 14 and sixteen for, say, ten stories, then the fourth judge can decide the winner and loser by giving 1/20 for the worst and 20/20 for best. Which is why I'd like scores for placements (though to repeat - I like the overall score-thing too).


----------



## Fatclub

Plasticweld said:


> For all those who offer suggestions, I hope to see you listed as judges for any of the next contests.


This seems a bit knee-jerkish and... silly? There's nothing wrong with suggestions. BDCharles knows a lot more than us about running an LM and nobody's pretending otherwise. Being critical and suggestive (not maliciously or contemptuously) shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## bdcharles

Fatclub said:


> Maybe it wouldn't have. Though maybe it would, and also affected my comments as well as my scoring. For instance, if I'm giving someone a low mark like 3/20 (which I did) I maybe wouldn't if I'd read a few good pieces by them in this forum. I probably would have upped the score a bit and been less brutal with my comments because they would have been more real/familiar and deserving of my emotional care. I think my attitude would have been colder when seeing an authors name I'm not familiar with. Also if someone's given me plenty of likes, thanks, compliments, and feel-good vibes, I would have to be a robot for this not to have an even subliminal effect.
> 
> I think in a lot of the 'arts', critics are kinder to people they are _already_ fans of. I see this in film reviews, book reviews, music, etc.



Is this what we want though? I mean, yes, judges are human and influencible but I would say enough people also are happy to subvert that urge if required, to level the field. My concern is that if we don't it risks turning it into a popularity contest. In my view there's an expectation on the judges to remain as impartial as htey can, while having their scores accurately reflect their thoughts on the story.



Fatclub said:


> Another thing, as I've mentioned before, is if three judges marks  everyone between 14 and sixteen for, say, ten stories, then the fourth  judge can decide the winner and loser by giving 1/20 for the worst and  20/20 for best. Which is why I'd like scores for placements (though to  repeat - I like the overall score-thing too)



Ah yep I will add the placements option to the list / poll. With the scoring, and the fourth judge being able to cast the decider, it is a risk but it seems to me tha trarely are the scores so narrow. I guess I'll have to try a quick dummy calculation and see. Then again, if a story amazes someone so much that they give it 20 in a field of 14s and  16s, then perhaps it deserves to win.


----------



## Fatclub

bdcharles said:


> My concern is that if we don't it risks turning it into a *popularity contest.* In my view there's an expectation on the judges to remain as impartial as htey can, while having their scores accurately reflect their thoughts on the story.


Yes, I totally agree and, believe me, I would always try to be as impartial as possible, and aware of my human fallibilities for the sake of fairness (which is why I mentioned the subliminal effect).


----------



## Fatclub

bdcharles said:


> Then again, if a story amazes someone so much that they give it 20 in a field of 14s and  16s, then perhaps it deserves to win.


No, that would be _me_ as judge, judging my pal!


----------



## velo

I see merits in all 3 methods, tbh.  Megan, I really like the suggestion of splitting effect into 2 components.  

I think plasticweld hits a point, albeit a bit roughly, that it's not always easy to get judges.  However that's one of those bridges you kind of can't cross until you get there.  Some months there are enough judges to spare, some not enough.  It's variable and likely not very predictable so anything based on a certain number of judges is likely to be unworkable.  

There is also the factor that under the current system judging precludes entry, but not submission, into the contest.  I know several who have stated they would be more likely to judge if that didn't eliminate them from the scoring.  The more I think about it that's one easy way to increase judging participation.  I vote for judges being able to enter the contest but (obviously) not score their own entry...though if each person gives themselves 20pts that's mathematically a wash anyway.  

Here's a spitball- what if the top 3 finishers were automatically made judges for the following month?  Or perhaps just the winner.  There still should be slots for volunteers but that could get us a minimum for each LM.  

On the anonymity piece, I know I've held back on some commentary with a member I have felt was more sensitive than average, which is not fair to them.  I also know that when I've come to really enjoy a particular writer's submissions over time I've looked back and noticed I was more forgiving in my scoring and commentary.  As a relatively frequent judge I'd like to cast a firm vote for full anonymity going forward.  However if this adds a lot to your workload bd, then that has to be taken into consideration as well.  

Thanks for the lively discussion, all!


----------



## Bard_Daniel

velo said:


> Here's a spitball- what if the top 3 finishers were automatically made judges for the following month?  Or perhaps just the winner.  There still should be slots for volunteers but that could get us a minimum for each LM.



LOVE this idea. Definitely food for thought!


----------



## bdcharles

velo said:


> Here's a spitball- what if the top 3 finishers were automatically made judges for the following month?  Or perhaps just the winner.  There still should be slots for volunteers but that could get us a minimum for each LM.





Bard_Daniel said:


> LOVE this idea. Definitely food for thought!



I'm just not feeling a huge need to reform the way judges are acquired right now; I genuinely am not having a problem procuring them. The good thing about volunteering, the way we do now, is that you get a degree of certainty of people's engagement - they opt in, they're likely to do it - whereas if the winner one month is simply not available the next month, or doesn't even want to judge, it throws the whole thing off and could even put people off entering if it comes encumbered with more commitments than just writing a story. The current way works (ok, it works for me) though I am open to allowing judges to be scored and may trial that, and am of course ok with any increase in judging participation levels. As I say, however, such an increase is not strictly needed at this time and I am not seeing a massive demand for it (unless I've missed something).


----------



## velo

Just tossing ideas out since we're in full blown discussion mode.


----------



## meegads

Being that I'm new to the forum and this was my first time judging, I don't have a whole lot of input as far as judging format.  I do however like the idea of anonymous entries.  I feel like I was able to be impartial because I don't know anyone yet, and had no preexisting bias toward any of the entrants.


----------



## luckyscars

Plasticweld said:


> This can only come from someone who has never run an LM here.  I would have to beg to find judges, trade with other members who ran LMs to judge for them, if they would judge for me.  Send out tons of requests asking for help.  I nominate Lucky to be the next organizer of any contest here on the site.
> 
> Much of your suggestions are meaningless until you've done the job.  While I appreciate your enthusiasm, it is like taking parenting advice from someone who has never raised children.  For all those who offer suggestions, I hope to see you listed as judges for any of the next contests.
> .



With all due respect, comparing managing an online 650 word story writing contest to raising children is a ridiculous analogy.

I have entered 3 LM’s in my entire life, which have been the last three. I volunteered to judge the latest one specifically to give back, this is despite not really having time to do it, but was inadvertently overlooked. The overlooking is no biggie at all...except to say with that in mind I take no condescending bullshit from you or anybody else suggesting I am somehow out of line for offering suggestions, and I sure don’t need you “nominating me” when I already volunteered to judge whenever wanted.

No I have never judged an LM, as I said upfront, but I have judged fiction contests before and have also had to find volunteers for a couple of charity events. Common sense says voluntary labor tends to be easier to attract when it is as untaxing as possible and you don’t need to be a pilot to say an aircraft that is too heavy or misshapen doesn’t fly. That was clearly my only point in my criticism regarding the process here. And I fully agreed about the judges being a priority (though oddly bdcharles disagrees?) so no idea what your point is mentioning that. It’s almost like you didn’t actually read the posts I wrote before deciding you had an opinion.. 

Either way, sorry you find my suggestions meaningless, Plastic. Clearly you know better and my views on LM are those of the childless parenting expert, so I’ll bow out here and let you and other experts take the reins on LM.


----------



## -xXx-

um.
so.
i started with the idea that LM judges
were pretending to be publishers
and were "mock traditional gatekeepers
for mass reader demographics".
pretty sure that came from
my interpretation of
the 3 categories in the judging guidelines.

being in a strange situation,
i found that there were substantial
differences between versions
of "industry standard" software packages.
i adopted a "distraction standard".
as a reader, were spag mechanics distracting?
as a reader, did the voice and/tone feel choppy?

being a strange reader, and acknowledging
that not all writers are focused on publication,
the may LM provided me the opportunity
to consider submissions differently.

one group was easily identifiable as
"contemporary shared reality".
i'm not part of that reader market demographic.
i'm that other reader market.

with the two groups,
and "distraction standard",
i implemented a hierarchy like the ranking
discussed in prior postings.

may LM was a good fit for trying
this approach because
once submissions reach a certain level
of consistent quality authorship,
errors may be format transfer, etc.

*superb group of stories,
in my-unqualified-but-delighted-opinion.
several writers are undeniably
maturing and strengthening
their storytelling.*

other thing to think about:
LM top rating gets* invite to the annual challenge*.

_*supports judge submissions*
*supports no-judge-entry-self-score*
*supports no-post-judge-entry-score*
*supports option post-judge-entry-review*
*likes idea of one month pick-your-prompt*_
-returns to minimalism-


----------



## midnightpoet

I've judged and participated in the LM several times, always viewed as a fun project and I might learn something about my writing in the process.  It still is.  Making it more fair might help, but my experience is that it's always been pretty fair.  Sure, there were times like one judge complained my story was one long phone call, which would have been fine except there was no phone call in the story, which made me wonder if she read it at all.  Another judge consistently rate my stories low, but he did that to everyone.  For us that have been published or would like to be published, LM might be good practice in dealing with editors and agents.

Remember, judges are human and therefore not perfect.


----------



## luckyscars

midnightpoet said:


> Remember, judges are human and therefore not perfect.



This discussion is becoming rife with virtue signaling. I have yet to see anybody here suggest or imply that judges are performing badly or in any way at fault. The issue at hand is whether the LM scoring structure could be improved. That is all.


----------



## Megan Pearson

bdcharles said:


> Does it???



That seemed to be the case back in March.

However, after April's LM, I am not so sure.


----------



## Megan Pearson

-xXx- said:


> um.
> so.



So... if we rewrite our scoring guidelines, could xXx provide us with a minimalist presentation of the new guideline?


He keeps it 

Short,

Sweet,

& Succinct.


----------



## Megan Pearson

Yeah, well, this might be poorly timed & surely doesn't follow the present discussion, but in case anyone remembers in two weeks... After coming back from doing the laundry, I have a suggestion for next month's writing prompt:

*Suggest:*
What's a Mazzerati doing parked in front of a coin-operated laundromat???


----------



## Candervalle

Drew Carey's catchphrase from _Whose Line is it Anyway_:

Where everything's made up, and the points don't matter.


----------



## epimetheus

bdcharles said:


> To summarise, I'm seeing three different options presented:
> 4) Placements: 3 points for 1st, 2 points for 2nd, 1 point for 3rd



I'm against rank scoring because it only measures performance relative to the performance of others. It's more difficult to interpret how a story performed: i have to read all the other entries and (subjectively) decide how good i think they are to get a sense of how well my piece did (at the moment i read other entries uncritically, just enjoying them). 

It could lead to excellent stories finishing with no points if there is a really strong field  - this could discourage a writer from pursuing good habits/styles because of a lack of 'success'.

Also, rank methods don't have nice properties for statistical analysis (though i'm sure no one else cares about that). I feel the current method gives easily interpretable results.




Fatclub said:


> Another thing, as I've mentioned before, is if three judges marks everyone between 14 and sixteen for, say, ten stories, then the fourth judge can decide the winner and loser by giving 1/20 for the worst and 20/20 for best. Which is why I'd like scores for placements (though to repeat - I like the overall score-thing too).



If that's really a problem the best way to deal with would be to transform each judges score into a Z-score. This would make each judge's average score 0 with scores of -x and x being x standard deviations away from the mean. This way the variance of the judge's scores is completely controlled for. We could use this just to determine finishing places, reporting the raw scores as they are far more intuitive.

I know people generally don't like stats but it's real easy to do; excel should be able to do it.


----------



## bdcharles

epimetheus said:


> I'm against rank scoring because it only  measures performance relative to the performance of others. It's more  difficult to interpret how a story performed: i have to read all the  other entries and (subjectively) decide how good i think they are to get  a sense of how well my piece did (at the moment i read other entries  uncritically, just enjoying them).
> 
> It could lead to excellent stories finishing with no points if there is a  really strong field  - this could discourage a writer from pursuing  good habits/styles because of a lack of 'success'.



Valid points. A tie between two  entries is a valid outcome for any single judge, and I am kind of  inclined to agree that everyone deserves a score.



epimetheus said:


> If that's really a problem the best way to deal with would be to transform each judges score into a Z-score.  This would make each judge's average score 0 with scores of -x and x  being x standard deviations away from the mean. This way the variance of  the judge's scores is completely controlled for. We could use this just  to determine finishing places, reporting the raw scores as they are far  more intuitive.
> 
> I know people generally don't like stats but it's real easy to do; excel should be able to do it.



Lol sounds vaguely terrifying :brainmelt: We could just leave it as it is.


----------



## velo

haha...yeah, long term trend analysis may be a bit much.  I find I'm going back and forth on my views as the discussion progresses, this had been a lively engagement.


----------



## Fatclub

epimetheus said:


> I'm against rank scoring because it only measures performance relative to the performance of others. It's more difficult to interpret how a story performed: i have to read all the other entries and (subjectively) decide how good i think they are to get a sense of how well my piece did (at the moment i read other entries uncritically, just enjoying them).
> 
> It could lead to excellent stories finishing with no points if there is a really strong field  - this could discourage a writer from pursuing good habits/styles because of a lack of 'success'.
> 
> Also, rank methods don't have nice properties for statistical analysis (though i'm sure no one else cares about that). I feel the current method gives easily interpretable results.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If that's really a problem the best way to deal with would be to transform each judges score into a Z-score. This would make each judge's average score 0 with scores of -x and x being x standard deviations away from the mean. This way the variance of the judge's scores is completely controlled for. We could use this just to determine finishing places, reporting the raw scores as they are far more intuitive.
> 
> I know people generally don't like stats but it's real easy to do; excel should be able to do it.


I may not be coming across as clearly as I'd like. I think it partly unifies the scoring - no more 'wild' high or low scores out of kilter with the other judge(s) due to whatever. Also, I don't get the importance of what you see as 'points' _other_ than their job in deciding placements. Points depicting placements was the main reason for me giving points when I was judging. It mainly helped me put the stories in order - that's it! Judges and readers alike can still comment on your SPaG, TaV, etc - you'll still get that input, surely. The occasional judge doesn't but that's the case now anyway. When I judged I initially didn't give points for SPaG. Who am I to judge your SPaG? I can only judge as a reader. After a request from BD I gave him points but they didn't tally up with my overall scores.

If you finish sixth or seventh surely the comments are more important than the points tally - what do you want the points for?

On the subject of draws - I can finish 2nd in a chess tournament, get 2nd prize, to a player with the same win/loss/draw points because they played stronger ranked players. If there's a placement draw surely, as grown ups, BD can sort out an individual winner. (Sorry BD if that sounds like more work for you  , nothing wrong with volunteering others for more work!)

btw sorry for editing this a few times since first putting this up.


----------



## epimetheus

Fatclub said:


> If you finish sixth or seventh surely the comments are more important than the points tally - what do you want the points for?



Good question, glad you asked.

The first thing i look at is the score, not placement. Don't get me wrong, i'm not so humble to eschew winning - it's great - but in terms of a metric of my story's performance i like a score. 

It allows me to compete with my past writing. Rank scoring will make that harder, as i'll need to factor in all the other stories and how they performed.

For instance, i'm particularly concerned with SPaG as I've never formally learnt any. I don't care how good it is relative to others, i just want to know if it stands on its own. And i want to know it's improving over time. Under the current system i can measure that - see if my SPaG score is on an upward trend. The feedback is great for highlighting particular bad habits - having the score allows me to measure the degree to which i'm actually addressing them.

Incidentally, i also feel under-qualified to assess other's grammar. I'm basing scores them on how easy a story is to read; how many times i had to reread something before i understood it. I'll point out particulars if i can, but even if none are evident, as readers we can still get a sense of how hard the author is making us work to understand the narrative.


----------



## Fatclub

epimetheus said:


> Good question, glad you asked.
> 
> in terms of a metric of my story's performance i like a score.
> 
> It allows me to compete with my past writing. Rank scoring will make that harder, as i'll need to factor in all the other stories and how they performed.


As has been mentioned before  - judges can be inconsistent individually, let alone from month to month with different judges.





epimetheus said:


> For instance, i'm particularly concerned with SPaG as I've never formally learnt any. I don't care how good it is relative to others, i just want to know if it stands on its own. And i want to know it's improving over time. Under the current system i can measure that - see if my SPaG score is on an upward trend. The feedback is great for highlighting particular bad habits - having the score allows me to measure the degree to which i'm actually addressing them.


 Have you tried going to the OED site and doing their SPaG tests? They're great. I've not had a good education either but I have to stick to my guns and say that points are a good/bad representation depending on the judge. I'm not a good one with SPaG and judges change from month to month.

Also, a one-month trial isn't for keeps. Is it?


----------



## luckyscars

Fatclub said:


> Have you tried going to the OED site and doing their SPaG tests? *Their* great.



Sorry this just made me giggle  Good advice though, the OED is where it’s at.


----------



## Tim

Excuse my ignorance. What is OED?


----------



## Bard_Daniel

I do believe it's the Oxford English Dictionary, but I'll probably stand corrected.


----------



## Fatclub

luckyscars said:


> Sorry this just made me giggle  Good advice though, the OED is where it’s at.


You made me smile, and blush, internally.
I have a mental problem with they're,  there, and their and should take a few moments to work it out. That darn word  never flows out correctly.

Bard_Daniel.
Yes, the OED, Oxford English Dictionary website has these tests.


----------



## velo

Fatclub, you need my mug.


----------



## Fatclub

Fatclub said:


> Have you tried going to the OED site and doing their SPaG tests? They're great.


Aaaah!


----------



## Fatclub

velo said:


> Fatclub, you need my mug.
> 
> View attachment 23840


 No, my mug's more photogenic.
Good cup you've got there, though.


----------



## velo

Well played.


----------



## Megan Pearson

Ooo-! Great cover for this month's contest!!!


----------



## velo

July suggesstions- 

False Patriot
Octopuses Garden
Broken Windows


----------



## Megan Pearson

velo said:


> July suggesstions-
> 
> False Patriot
> *Octopuses Garden*
> Broken Windows



*Second: *
Octopuses Garden

(Hey, is that meant to be plural or posessive? BTW, Ringo Starr had it posessive.)


*Suggest: *
Walking through stars


----------



## velo

Megan Pearson said:


> Hey, is that meant to be plural or posessive?


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Suggest:
The Trilobite Dance
Alone in the Dark
Final Girl
Abyss of Light
The Devil is a Poser


----------



## BornForBurning

Second: 
The Devil is a Poser
False Patriot
Final Girl

Suggest: 
House of Infinite Forms
Bodyless
Dead and Dreaming


----------



## bdcharles

Megan Pearson said:


> Ooo-! Great cover for this month's contest!!!



I'd really like to see a gallery of these covers. They're art.


----------



## SueC

Suggestions for July:

Falling off a Cliff
Telling the Truth
Darkness at Noon
If Not Now, When?
The Fifth Season



Second:
Alone in the Dark


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Second:
Dead and Dreaming
Bodyless

Suggest:
Nightshade
The Crawlers


----------



## Megan Pearson

velo said:


>




Solamente una pregunta para aclaracíon... la niña meme es linda. Entonces dos. 

(Lo siento, Ringo.)


----------



## Megan Pearson

ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord said:


> Suggest:
> The Trilobite Dance
> Alone in the Dark
> Final Girl
> Abyss of Light
> The Devil is a Poser




*Second*
Abyss of Light


----------



## Tim

Suggest: The Seventh Sense.


----------



## Bard_Daniel

Oooooo, I'm cutting it close again- but I'm determined to get that entry in on time.


----------



## undead_av

Suggest: 
My Dream Girl Don't Exist
The Killing Jar
Freaks and Ghouls
Ghosts in the Snow

Second:
Walking Through Stars
Broken Windows


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Second:
Ghosts in the Snow


----------



## BornForBurning

Second: 
The Killing Jar
Ghosts in the Snow



> Oooooo, I'm cutting it close again- but I'm determined to get that entry in on time.


go go go buddy


----------



## -xXx-

some affirmative number:


BornForBurning said:


> House of Infinite Forms





Megan Pearson said:


> Walking through stars





Bard_Daniel said:


> Oooooo, I'm cutting it close again- but I'm determined to get that entry in on time.





BornForBurning said:


> go go go buddy


----------



## bdcharles

OK, comp's closed (as of about 2 days ago) and I see we have some new prompts going. I'll poll them up on Sunday, so keep coming with them til then. 

Suggestion:

Google "Abandoned places" and use pic of your choice:

(photo: Michael Schwan)


----------



## SueC

I second "abandoned places"


----------



## bdcharles

Suggest: Write a piece based on the output of Twitter's "Magic Realism Bot" (prompts and further info can be supplied if you don't know what this is)


----------



## Fatclub

bdcharles said:


> Suggest: Write a piece based on the output of Twitter's "Magic Realism Bot" (prompts and further info can be supplied if you don't know what this is)



Can I guess that's it's a software programme (bot?) insidiously hidden in amongst an app that messes around with photographs? 

I've heard of Twitter, of course.


----------



## bdcharles

Fatclub said:


> Can I guess that's it's a software programme (bot?) insidiously hidden in amongst an app that messes around with photographs?
> 
> I've heard of Twitter, of course.



That's basically it, though it doesn't do anything with photos; instead, it generates, on Twitter, statements that are just semi-randomised and mildly nonsensical enough that they could only form the plot of a magical realism novel. I'm not sure why, but I find it strangely compelling.


----------



## Fatclub

bdcharles said:


> That's basically it, though it doesn't do anything with photos; instead, it generates, on Twitter, statements that are just semi-randomised and mildly nonsensical enough that they could only *form the plot of a magical realism novel*. I'm not sure why, but I find it strangely compelling.


Okay, so what's 'magical realism'? The statement seems oxymoronic (Ta, for giving me the chance to make up this word).


----------



## bdcharles

Fatclub said:


> Okay, so what's 'magical realism'? The statement seems oxymoronic (Ta, for giving me the chance to make up this word).



Basically real-world fiction with small elements of the unreal thrown in. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_realism

As Matthew Strecher says there, "it's what happens when a highly  detailed, realistic setting is invaded by something too strange to  believe."


----------



## Fatclub

bdcharles said:


> Basically real-world fiction with small elements of the unreal thrown in.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_realism
> 
> As Matthew Strecher says there, "it's what happens when a highly  detailed, realistic setting is invaded by something too strange to  believe."


Ah.
Thx, I'll look it up.


----------



## -xXx-

bdcharles said:


> <snip>"it's what happens when a highly  detailed, realistic setting is invaded by something too strange to  believe."



you rang?


----------



## Ma'am

Just a thought here because I know the monthly contests have been a tradition here for a while and also involve work for the judges and mods... but what about increasing them to every week? And maybe increase the word limit to 1,000 words too, at least on some of them?


----------



## velo

Ma'am said:


> Just a thought here because I know the monthly contests have been a tradition here for a while and also involve work for the judges and mods... but what about increasing them to every week? And maybe increase the word limit to 1,000 words too, at least on some of them?



My $0.02-

Every week feels too much.  Sometimes it takes me a week or more to come up with a decent idea.  I think once a month gives ample time for the concept and writing process to unfold.  It's usually about 2.5weeks between prompt announcement and deadline.  That's enough for a few drafts, a lot of tweaking, etc.  

Also it's going to be hard to get scores in a timely fashion.  I had challenges last month and couldn't get my scores in until around the 1st of the next month.  

re: word count.  650 is pretty tough, especially at first, but I've come to like it because it is tough.  I feel like it's a really good length because it forces the writer to tighten the story up a lot.  You can't throw a lot of fluff or purple prose into something that length.  I have definitely become a better writer, both qualitatively and quantitatively, as a result of regular participation in the monthly LM.


----------



## bdcharles

ok last chance for prompt suggestions. I'll put a prompt up later today. Anyone want to judge?


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

velo said:


> My $0.02-
> 
> Every week feels too much.  Sometimes it takes me a week or more to come up with a decent idea.  I think once a month gives ample time for the concept and writing process to unfold.  It's usually about 2.5weeks between prompt announcement and deadline.  That's enough for a few drafts, a lot of tweaking, etc.
> 
> Also it's going to be hard to get scores in a timely fashion.  I had challenges last month and couldn't get my scores in until around the 1st of the next month.
> 
> re: word count.  650 is pretty tough, especially at first, but I've come to like it because it is tough.  I feel like it's a really good length because it forces the writer to tighten the story up a lot.  You can't throw a lot of fluff or purple prose into something that length.  I have definitely become a better writer, both qualitatively and quantitatively, as a result of regular participation in the monthly LM.



Agree. Also, although 650 words is tough, it's easier on the judges. Not so much to read and analyze.


----------



## velo

bdcharles said:


> ok last chance for prompt suggestions. I'll put a prompt up later today. Anyone want to judge?





Depends on what the prompt is!! ;-D


----------



## SueC

From Ma'am: 





> Just a thought here because I know the monthly contests have been a tradition here for a while and also involve work for the judges and mods... but what about increasing them to every week? And maybe increase the word limit to 1,000 words too, at least on some of them? :smile:



I agree that sometimes the wait seems to go on forever, but that's usually when I am inspired by the prompt, and can come up with a story pretty quickly. But, being honest, there have been some prompts that took me up to close to the deadline to come up with something, and it's usually miles away from my first thought, or the obvious one. So, the time for some of us is necessary, but maybe not always. We rely so much on those generous judges - if we had more offerings to judge (and it seems like the numbers are increasing lately) - we might be able to do something more frequently. I don't know - something to think about.

Since we are talking suggestions, I have one. Now, the routine is to narrow down a prompt and then offer it up for writing by the beginning of a month. The prompt has to show up somewhere, somehow in the story, always at the discretion of the writer, but not necessarily in the title. What if, one month, we came up with a title that everyone has to use (instead of a random prompt), something like, "Tales of the Sea," or "Travels in a Balloon." It might be fun to see how people interpret the one title. You know, many times when we pick a book for ourselves to read, it is because the title is somehow compelling. We can often be surprised because it might not have been what we expected from that particular title. Creativity reigns!

Just a thought ...


----------



## sigmadog

Ma'am said:


> Just a thought here because I know the monthly contests have been a tradition here for a while and also involve work for the judges and mods... but what about increasing them to every week? And maybe increase the word limit to 1,000 words too, at least on some of them?



Others have chimed in, so I'll just add:

"Ain't no way in hell I'm gonna make free artwork each week for the challenge."


----------



## Fatclub

SueC said:


> From Ma'am:
> 
> I agree that sometimes the wait seems to go on forever, but that's usually when I am inspired by the prompt, and can come up with a story pretty quickly.



Yes , I've posted quickly and time has taken some of my enthusiasm before the deadline even, let alone the scores.
I've timed myself at three and a half minutes to slowly read a 650-word story. With ten stories that's 35 minutes - big %$+x£* deal! I don't understand why the judges need several days or weeks to read and comment/judge. Then another hour or two to comment - why don't they have the time? I've been a judge and it hardly took any time at all.

Sometimes judges deliver scores and one or two-sentence reviews.

What's with these peoples lives where they don't have time?

I personally don't know anyone who doesn't have the time.

If you say you don't have the time I would say "Yes, you do - you just prefer to do this or that instead."

Looking at the above makes it feel like a rant - apologies, it's not a rant (maybe a little moan). I just don't understand, that's all. 

btw BDCharles, if you're short of judges I'll judge. But as I've mentioned before - I'm not confident with judging other people's SPaG.


----------



## bdcharles

I think I am going to keep the timings as they are pro tem: 2 weeks to write a story, 2 weeks to score. As sigmadog points out, doing it more often could turn into a good whack of extra work for him (and me), and ... I just don't see a big demand to do it weekly. As it is, I'm loving the turnouts, the entries and all of it and think we're currently in a really nice sweet spot.


----------



## bdcharles

Fatclub said:


> Also, a one-month trial isn't for keeps. Is it?



Nope not necessarily


----------



## bdcharles

ok prompt voting is live and direct. Looking for judges too. I'm sure someone offered but now I can't see who it was. Step forward, step forward! Remember we're going to split effect into evaluation and reaction (5 points each) this time too. I'll summarise that over the next few days.


----------



## Fatclub

bdcharles said:


> ok prompt voting is live and direct.


I'll vote nearer the deadline this time so that I can see the top two or three and maybe my vote will count.


----------



## bdcharles

Fatclub said:


> I'll vote nearer the deadline this time so that I can see the top two or three and maybe my vote will count.



Was it you that suggested a wider selection of prompts - either select any one from the lot or one from the top 3 or something?


----------



## epimetheus

bdcharles said:


> I think I am going to keep the timings as they are pro tem: 2 weeks to write a story, 2 weeks to score...



I wouldn't mind having the prompt a week earlier - give more time for ideas to percolate. Shouldn't create extra work for anyone, just shift the voting forward. No biggie though.


----------



## bdcharles

epimetheus said:


> I wouldn't mind having the prompt a week earlier - give more time for ideas to percolate. Shouldn't create extra work for anyone, just shift the voting forward. No biggie though.



Yeah, and I can sort of see this happening in this thread with people suggesting before the two weeks writing is up. That's definitely doable.


----------



## Fatclub

bdcharles said:


> Was it you that suggested a wider selection of prompts - either select any one from the lot or one from the top 3 or something?


No, and can't remember who did.


----------



## Fatclub

I've just had a think and _maybe _I did, but I doubt it. I can't remember. What I _did_ suggest was a prompt-free month. But, as you say, if it ain't broke don't fix it (or words to that effect).


----------



## Rookish

Hello folks, had a score drafted in pm to bd two nights ago up to third from last entry, working offline on my screenshattered batterysplattering tablet. Somehow tab refreshed, no form data saved so lost all them typing hours. Busy with potato planting season, so will have a barebones score by weekend end... pretty much got the numbers, but my analysis will be lacking. I'll note the major points but it's gonna be basic, so feel free to ask me afterward if you want a deeper answer.


----------



## velo

I think a no prompt month is just as valid.  It might give a few folks the opportunity to write that story that's been burning a hole in their keyboard but haven't been able to fit into previous months.


----------



## velo

I'll judge. The prompt in the lead isn't speaking to me


----------



## Fatclub

Rookish said:


> Hello folks, had a score drafted in pm to bd two nights ago up to third from last entry, working offline on my screenshattered batterysplattering tablet. Somehow tab refreshed, no form data saved so lost all them typing hours. Busy with potato planting season, so will have a barebones score by weekend end... pretty much got the numbers, but my analysis will be lacking. I'll note the major points but it's gonna be basic, s*o feel free to ask me afterward if you want a deeper answer.*


Options - LOL, Like, Thanks. 

Why is there not a dislike-option, or thumbs-down option, for me here?
Isn't/aren't there several people out there a bit pissed off? 

No, Rookish- don't wait for requests, just do it.


----------



## Fatclub

Rookish,
 be sure to give me a good mark though, and all will be forgiven


----------



## bdcharles

Rookish said:


> Hello folks, had a score drafted in pm to bd two nights ago up to third from last entry, working offline on my screenshattered batterysplattering tablet. Somehow tab refreshed, no form data saved so lost all them typing hours. Busy with potato planting season, so will have a barebones score by weekend end... pretty much got the numbers, but my analysis will be lacking. I'll note the major points but it's gonna be basic, so feel free to ask me afterward if you want a deeper answer.



No worries, Rookish. Just send us whatever you have. If it's all gone and you've no chance of (or time for) recovery don't worry - I have three scores I can work with. Just let me know


----------



## bdcharles

New prompt is up by the way. The old prompt is dead.

Long live the prompt!
_(*crowds chant. Pitchforks jab the air*)

_Meanwhile, put your next prompt suggestions in here as per usual. I'm going to try and bring it all forward a bit, so we get longer to ponder on it (thanks velo or possibly epimetheus who suggested that) plus also to get my bits done before I disappear for 2 weeks.


Did someone suggest a "no prompt" prompt? If so I second that.  If not, I suggest it


----------



## Ma'am

Here are a few more ideas:

- A story based on a color

- A summertime story

- A list that tells a story

- A story with 3 twists- Three times, the consequence or reaction received is clearly not at all what would be expected.

- People as animal/s (to be interpreted as you wish)


----------



## SueC

I thought we were going with no prompt this time. No?

If not, I saw this quote at the beginning of a grade B horror flick; thought it was interesting as a prompt.

"There are two possibilities . . .either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying."      _Arthur G. Clark
_
(Sir Arthur Charles Clarke CBE FRAS was a British science fiction writer, science writer and futurist, inventor, undersea explorer, and television series host.)


----------



## Megan Pearson

Fatclub said:


> Yes , I've posted quickly and time has taken some of my enthusiasm before the deadline even, let alone the scores.
> I've timed myself at three and a half minutes to slowly read a 650-word story. With ten stories that's 35 minutes - big %$+x£* deal! I don't understand why the judges need several days or weeks to read and comment/judge. Then another hour or two to comment - why don't they have the time? I've been a judge and it hardly took any time at all.



Seriously?? Good for you, and I don't want to take anything away from your approach, but my experience has been somewhat different. I don't think I'm a slow reader or anything but it takes me a half-hour _minimum_ to respond per entry. I read each story several times looking for patterns or deviations from patterns that will help me in identitfying how I should offer my praise or critique. (It's really important to me to find at least one really important praise and one helpful critique per submission.) Since I really want my comments to be of benefit to the entrant, sometimes I'll even go back & streamline my comments, too, before submitting. This means that when I commit to judging, I go in planning on 2-3 days at 2-5 hours a day. So for me, taking on the responsibility of judging is a big consideration. 

(I get a lot out of it, too, especially in looking up grammatical conventions, so for me the exercise in judging is time I'm spending on honing my understanding of craft.)




Fatclub said:


> I personally don't know anyone who doesn't have the time.



:roll:

Well, if you've got some spare time, I've got a jar to put it in. 




Fatclub said:


> ... I'll judge. But as I've mentioned before - I'm not confident with judging other people's SPaG.



Great opportunity to brush up on your own use of SPaG! If you can Google it, you'll do fine.


----------



## velo

Fatclub, 

Not everyone's situation or approach to judging is the same.  For example, I read each story a minimum of 4 times, often taking a day or two in between to let them percolate in mah braynz.  I tend to be a slow thinker and my initial reaction to something may not be the same after I spend some time in consideration.  Also I'll sometimes do a TaV read and then an effect read.  I'm going to add  SpaG read as well.  I then do my best to write a response that is honest without being mean or effusive.   When I don't have much good to say about a story I'll agonise over how to express my response in a way that hopefully comes across as constructive and not just criticising and that takes time and effort.  

As for time...folks have kids, pets, high-stress jobs, etc.  There is a lot more going on in my life than the forums and I feel safe saying that this is likely the most common experience.  Not saying you're not busy but using a data set of 1 (namely your situation and drive) to extrapolate what the norm should be is not scientifically or mathematically defensible.   

Sometimes it's just bloody hard to come home from work, tend to household tasks, ensure relationships are tended to, and then realise you've got stories to judge.  Some evenings it can seem an onerous task better saved for the morrow.  

Just my 2p, take it for what it's worth.


----------



## velo

Fatclub said:


> Why is there not a dislike-option, or thumbs-down option, for me here?



The simple answer is that this is they way the software is written.   

Ok, now for the non-dad-joke answer...for me I think a LOL or a LIKE or a THANKS is a quick and easy way to acknowledge a post.  Sometimes a full written response isn't required and these small affirmations allow a user to respond without burning a lot of time.  

A thumb-down or dislike option, however, would not be as constructive.  To actively show dislike for something on a forum like this should be done with an explanation and put into context.  Do you really want people hitting dislike on a story and not telling you why?  For my part that would drive me mad.  My view is that if you're going to tell me you don't like something I've done or posted at least give me the courtesy of giving me a little insight into why you don't like it, that way I can hopefully learn something.


----------



## Fatclub

Megan, Velo, Rookish (and anyone else)

I'm often guilty of posting without too much thought so I'm happy to stand corrected on one or two of my cringe-worthy earlier posts.

Here comes...I'm gonna act like a total hypocrite now and admit I also read the stories several times and look things up. When I judged I actually counted the words because I didn't trust my word counter. 

And here's more hypocrisy -  I also have days with no time for anything so that when I down tools I need to relax. Judging's difficult to do to order.

I'll try to put more thought into critical opinions in future rather than just rattle them off.
Edit: I've just revisited my old posts (bad idea!) and have to blush and apologise.


----------



## velo

No worries, mate.  We've all been there.


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

I second the Arthur G. Clark quote.


----------



## Bard_Daniel

I third the Arthur C. Clarke quote. =)


----------



## Ibb

I friggin' THIRD the Arthur quote; and share the following short story in celebration of it:

http://www.roma1.infn.it/~anzel/answer.html

EDIT: Did I say third? Er, ah, erm.... I meant; fourth it.


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Hey judges, don't want to be rude (I've judged before and it is hard to get scores in on time), but any estimate on when scores will be ready?


----------



## bdcharles

ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord said:


> Hey judges, don't want to be rude (I've judged before and it is hard to get scores in on time), but any estimate on when scores will be ready?



Im going to post what I have later today which will likely be 3 out of 4 scores.


----------



## SueC




----------



## velo

bdcharles said:


> Im going to post what I have later today which will likely be 3 out of 4 scores.


----------



## Fatclub

velo said:


>


 Hey, I'm okay with this. As far as I'm concerned BDC can take as long as he likes. And Yaah-boo to the rest of you.


----------



## SueC

Just a little teasing, FatClub. Nothing serious.


----------



## Fatclub

Oops, I did it gaion.


----------



## Fatclub

SueC said:


> Just a little teasing, FatClub. *Nothing serious. *


Me too


----------



## bdcharles

Here


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Woo! Finally! Congrats to undead_av!


----------



## velo

Suggest- 

[open/no prompt write about anything]

[open/write a sequel to a previous submission (or a new story if you've never contributed)]

Tales of a Modern Day Nothing [my apologies to Judy Blume -Ed.] 

Unrequited violence


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Second:
sequel to previous submission

Suggest:
open-ish - a story based on a dream (kind of like choose a song)


----------



## bdcharles

Keep those prompts coming guys! I am going to put up a poll on the weekend to give everyone more time. Also - what are people's thoughts on judges being scored too? I'll gauge interest here and make a poll for that too, in time for the Aug comp.


----------



## velo

After long and careful thought and many vacillations I think judges should be a full part of the comp if they choose to submit.  I've heard very little against the idea but several have mentioned that they have chosen to not judge in the past because the prompt really spoke to them.  

I vote aye.


----------



## Ma'am

I guess I'd vote no- OR I'd vote to change the scoring system to make the results more even if the judges compete. For ex., having all allowed to enter and also all allowed to judge, with a simplified vote of choosing the story they liked the best.

If all else remains the same, there's a math problem that could markedly skew the results. If the other contestants' scores are the average of three judge's scores, and the contestant-judge's score is the result of only the other two judge's scores (or their third score is from a different judge), then they are competing with different criteria than everyone else is. One judge's opinion can easily be the difference between winning and losing.

Especially when the scores themselves are done in such a detailed fashion, it doesn't make sense to me to then toss that wild card in on the end results.


----------



## velo

Ma'am, just FYI, if you scroll back in this thread we've covered a lot of these topics already.


----------



## SueC

It's a yes for me too. I think judges should be able to participate fully. I'm so not a math whiz, but I think if you had 3 judges and one judge entered and had his project scored by 2, it wouldn't make much difference than an entrant with 3 scores.

For example, Judge Velo's entry is scored 17 and 19, respectively, by the two remaining judges. score: 36, with a Final of 18. 

Bd's entry is scored 17, 18 and 19, by 3 judges. score: 54, with an Final of 18.

Maybe I'm not looking at this right, or the example doesn't really capture it best, but I have always felt that the low numbers of judges was because of not being able to participate fully. My two cents too.


----------



## velo

Sue, the concern is that with a mean score taken from a small number of judges increases the effect of each individual score.  It's not unheard of for one judge to score a story at a 12 and another at 18 since much of the score is based on subjective qualities.  

Will this impact outcomes?  Sure.  But I think the interests of the LM as a whole, i.e. increasing participation of both authors and judges, outweighs the mathematical impact of a judge being scored by one less judge.  Perhaps, to increase fairness on the other side, we could also go to a fully anonymous comp like the monthly poetry contest?


----------



## PiP

> we could also go to a fully anonymous comp like the monthly poetry contest?



While I think this is an excellent idea, it really depends on the challenge host and if he is willing to devote more time to the challenge.


----------



## velo

hehehe...since that's me for Aug I think we might just experiment with that....with bd's approval, of course


----------



## Ma'am

Can someone tell me how to link my contest story in the workshop to the main contest page?

I can't get a link to the story itself to post. I can only get a link to that whole workshop thread.


----------



## Fatclub

Ma'am said:


> Can someone tell me how to link my contest story in the workshop to the *main contest page?*
> 
> I can't get a link to the story itself to post. I can only get a link to that whole workshop thread.


By this, do you mean the secure thread? Because I tried a few times myself and failed.


----------



## Ma'am

Yes.

ETA: Thanks, Velo, for fixing it for me again.


----------



## velo

Hey Ma'am, just following up.  I wasn't in a place where I had the time to reply when I edited the link.  

If you look at every post on the forum there is a green bar at the top.  To the left is a time stamp and the right is a sequence number stating what number post this is in the thread.  That number is also a link directly to that post.  All you need do is copy the link contained in sequence number of your workshop post and paste that into the main LM thread.


----------



## bdcharles

velo said:


> hehehe...since that's me for Aug I think we might just experiment with that....with bd's approval, of course



Go for it ... I did it in Feb and it was good. I’ll probably hold off on making it permanently anonymous for now unless there’s a big demand, as it’s a bit of an increase in workload as PiP says


----------



## Megan Pearson

SueC said:


> It's a yes for me too. I think judges should be able to participate fully. I'm so not a math whiz, but I think if you had 3 judges and one judge entered and had his project scored by 2, it wouldn't make much difference than an entrant with 3 scores.
> 
> For example, Judge Velo's entry is scored 17 and 19, respectively, by the two remaining judges. score: 36, with a Final of 18.
> 
> Bd's entry is scored 17, 18 and 19, by 3 judges. score: 54, with an Final of 18.
> 
> Maybe I'm not looking at this right, or the example doesn't really capture it best, but I have always felt that the low numbers of judges was because of not being able to participate fully. My two cents too.




Not to add to the issue of workload *bdcharles* mentioned, but what if we dedicate the final judge as 'the judge's judge'? 

*+  *The advantages I see are, it's an obvious fix to the numerical problem and preserves the integrity of the scoring system. Example: 4 people sign up to judge, 3 judge the contestants, the 4th judges the judges. In this way, all contestants, judges included, obtain 3 scores. 

*-  *The major disadvantage that jumps out at me is participation. If we only have two judges sign up, then clearly, we can't just dedicate a needed voice to only judging the judges. We would have to have a minimum of 3 judges to participate every time, which leads to an additional problem...

*- * ...which would be that when 3 judges are available, contestants might want 3 scores (& so-on), as this gives further advantage to the contestants.


Personally, I'm okay with not expecting a score but find that knowing what that score would have been to be rather nice. However, I can see how our present set-up would, as *Velo* mentioned above, deter potential judges from judging.


----------



## velo

What if the judge's judge wants to compete?  Is this fair to them?


----------



## Ma'am

I'm fine with any way, but an additional idea is to simply have fewer judges in the first place. I'm thinking of the ways I've seen contests run on other forums. I've seen one judge only, or one judge as the standard with others joining in only if anyone wants to. It seems any way has both its up side and down side, though. And of course the down side there is that one person's opinion is the final word.


----------



## bdcharles

Poll is up. It's just a yes/no at the moment.


----------



## bdcharles

SueC said:


> Maybe I'm not looking at this right, or the example doesn't really capture it best, but I have always felt that the low numbers of judges was because of not being able to participate fully. My two cents too.



The "low number of judges" is because we only accept a max of 4. Honestly, I can state hand on heart that I don't feel there is a lack of judging participation - I think I have struggled once and that was when I started. Having judges' entries be scored is simply a 'nice-to-have', rather than an additional incentive to get any numbers up.


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Prompt suggestions:

Burn it to the Ground
Cul-De-Sac
The Devil is a Poser
Mindbreaker


----------



## SueC

I know we have talked a lot lately about changes to how we do things here, so wanted to add some thoughts. There were some comments awhile ago about allowing a writer, when submitting their story for the LM comp, to offer comments about the story, outside of the word count. This never went anywhere, but today I was thinking maybe we could encourage our winners to tell us something about the story they wrote, how they were inspired by the prompt and so on. Just a thought. Thanks.


----------



## Ibb

Prompt Suggestion:

Judging the Judges
Judge THIS!
To Judge or Not to Judge
Judging Along
Won't Somebody Think of the Judges?

EDIT: You thought I was DONE?

The Judge Pudge
Sludges of Judges
Judge and Fudge


----------



## velo

*It's amateur hour!*

Reminder to everyone I'll be running the LM (poorly) for Aug whilst BD takes a much-deserved break so a couple details

1- July judges please PM your results to me.  

2- We talked about posting the prompt a little early to give people a chance to make an informed decision on judging vs entering so I'll be posting the prompt poll with all seconded suggestions on Sat 20JUL through Wed 24JUL and will ask that all potential judges decide what they are going to do no later than Mon 29JUL. 

3- I'd like to do a fully anonymous LM for the month.  If you want to judge for AUG please PM me and don't post here in the coffee shop.  We'll keep everyone guessing!  :: Dr Evil laugh ::


----------



## BornForBurning

Second: 
Won't Somebody Think of the Judges?
The Devil is a Poser

Suggest: 
House of Infinite Forms
Dead and Dreaming
Devouring Feminine Abyss


----------



## velo

My preference is that I'd prefer the comments to come after the scoring is done.  I feel like a story should be able to stand on its own, that's part and parcel of the skills of a writer.  If you've got to explain yourself outside the story, I'd suggest you edit some more.   



SueC said:


> I know we have talked a lot lately about changes to how we do things here, so wanted to add some thoughts. There were some comments awhile ago about allowing a writer, when submitting their story for the LM comp, to offer comments about the story, outside of the word count. This never went anywhere, but today I was thinking maybe we could encourage our winners to tell us something about the story they wrote, how they were inspired by the prompt and so on. Just a thought. Thanks.


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Second:
Dead and Dreaming


----------



## bdcharles

July LM has closed. Pens down! 

I'll put up a poll for the Aug prompts later today.


----------



## bdcharles

Second:



> House of Infinite Forms


----------



## Fatclub

velo said:


> My preference is that I'd prefer the comments to come after the scoring is done.


Me too, and that's what SueC is suggesting. Obviously the winner doesn't know they're the winner until afterwards. 


velo said:


> I feel like a story should be able to stand on its own, that's part and parcel of the skills of a writer. If you've got to explain yourself outside the story, *I'd suggest you edit some more.*


I must admit, in a book I've never seen 'Warning: bad language'. But often I've researched a book before reading. It's years since I've read a story blind, with no knowledge except the title. I either know the author or genre. I know if it's american or not. 

Most often, I see stories here that can stand on their own. But occasionally I think 'Fantasy', 'Horror' or 'Romance' would help beforehand.

Are you suggesting that in the first sentence or two a word like 'wizard' or 'goblin' should be used to show the reader the genre instead? I suppose there's nothing wrong with that, though it sounds restrictive.


----------



## bdcharles

velo said:


> Reminder to everyone I'll be running the LM (poorly) for Aug whilst BD takes a much-deserved break



Nah man. You'll do a good job.

**types**



bdcharles said:


> I'll put up a poll for the Aug prompts later today.



**then sees**



velo said:


> 2- We talked about posting the prompt a little early to give people a chance to make an informed decision on judging vs entering so I'll be posting the prompt poll with all seconded suggestions on Sat 20JUL through Wed 24JUL



Yep, just ignore me, everybody. My mind is ... kaput. I really need that holiday


----------



## velo

bdcharles said:


> Yep, just ignore me, everybody. My mind is ... kaput. I really need that holiday



Send me yer scores and be off w'ye, lad.


----------



## SueC

Quote of the day - Black and white 1948 detective film - "Calling Paul Temple":

"I've often heard that novelists do most of their writing in bed."

I wonder how that works?


----------



## Bard_Daniel

I'm just putting this in, but I'm willing to judge for next month's entries. It's been a while, but I really want to get involved!


----------



## Megan Pearson

SueC said:


> I know we have talked a lot lately about changes to how we do things here, so wanted to add some thoughts. There were some comments awhile ago about allowing a writer, when submitting their story for the LM comp, to offer comments about the story, outside of the word count. This never went anywhere, but today I was thinking maybe we could encourage our winners to tell us something about the story they wrote, how they were inspired by the prompt and so on. Just a thought. Thanks.



I find I like learning about how other writers approach their writing, too. What would be neat about doing that here is that we can learn from people we actually (sort-of) know. I could see this being open after the writing prompt has closed.

However, I wouldn't want to spend too much time on it, or it could become an exercise in navel-gazing. Maybe set it up as more of a question & answer time?


----------



## Megan Pearson

SueC said:


> Quote of the day - Black and white 1948 detective film - "Calling Paul Temple":
> 
> "I've often heard that novelists do most of their writing in bed."
> 
> I wonder how that works?




*Suggest:*

Where do you do your best writing? Write a believable story about a writer successfully writing from the strangest place on earth. You pick where.


----------



## Ibb

Seeing as we're all rather talkative in here, The Lounge, why not just put a little note at the end of each month's revealed scores? "And don't forget to visit the Coffee Shop to discuss this month's entries, techniques, and more!" Then we can all come together, hold hands, and sing kumbaya. Make it part of the writingforums culture and you make it last forever. I'll start:

When writing my LM entries, it's a very simple process. I sit down at my typewriter, snort a fat line of blow, put on some heavy death metal, and black out while headbutting the keyboards. Afterwards, I either have a wonderuflly coherent story which I submit for review, or a spooky pile of papers each contaminated by heavy dark scribbles. For this month's now-closed entry, I was halfway through a short story called 'Meathead,' which would have been about a young female sociopath finding herself completely Unable to Deal with the fact that she was being dumped by a boy. In a fit of rage, she smacks him over the head with a hammer, striking the temple and killing the poor lad. Terrified--but able!--she drags him to a nearby cove and, by god!, counts her blessings when aggressive reef sharks begin to chomp on his skull as she barely holds him afloat by the ankles. The final sentence would have bound up with the first one, concluding with "She had never looked better" as an echo of the opening scenes which demonstrated our young heroine admiring her incomparable beauty. Because, get it? 'Meathead?' The boy's a meathead; the head becomes a source of meat for the sharks; and in an instance of recalled fellatio, she performed an act of grace on her now deceased boytoy, ie: 'meat' and 'head.' I promise there would have been a rating warning. 

Alas, as I was only halfway there, the death metal skipped a beat, Spotify went haywire, I was thrown helter-skelter into a hand-clapping, boot-stomping country waltz, and both my brain and the writing spiralled straight out of control through a third-story window, onto an ambulance truck, and onto a hospital bed from which I now convey this post. 

Next LM, friends. What non-submitted stories were all of YOU writing before you decided to bow out of this month's contest? Entrants: wait your damn turn. No talkie until the reviews are posted. Get it? Got it? Shush now! Good (and good luck!).


----------



## velo

Reminder that next month's will be anonymous, both judges and entrants.  

Two more days for prompts and seconds.


----------



## SueC

Second: Where do you do your best writing?


----------



## Mish

velo said:


> Reminder that next month's will be anonymous, both judges and entrants.
> 
> Two more days for prompts and seconds.



How will anonymity work? Is it through anonymity plugin or PM like for poetry challenges currently?


----------



## velo

Mish said:


> How will anonymity work? Is it through anonymity plugin or PM like for poetry challenges currently?



Just PM.  Entrants will send to me and I will post.  Judges' names will not be published until the scores are.  Full details will be posted in the AUG LM thread.


----------



## -xXx-

yeah.
i'm working on scores.
yeah.
they aren't ready yet.
yeah.
it took me longer than usual
to crawl out from under my rock.
it got paved over
during that last pothole fill frenzy.
the heat loosened up the asphalt.
turgor.
torque.
that's the way we do that....o/~
;D
_**great* LM content*
*jussayin'*_


----------



## velo

*Judge not, lest ye be judged*

That being said, I need more judges for August.  Please *PM me directly*, do not post publicly, if you wish to pass sentence on your fellow writers.  August will be a double blind LM, judges and participants will be anonymous until the scores are revealed!  (evil laugh)  

The prompt voting closes in about 3 hours.  Cast yer votes!  Results will be visible once it is closed.  (another evil laugh)


----------



## Ma'am

Regarding the August prompt, I have no idea what "dead and dreaming" means. Thoughts appreciated.


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Dead But Dreaming

"I am not a human being, this is just a dream and soon I shall awake."


----------



## BornForBurning

Diabolic shapes float by
Out from the dark
I remember it was here I died
By following the Freezing Moon...


----------



## velo

Ma'am, the prompt is open to a wide variety of interpretations.  Feel free to experiment.  What does it mean to YOU?  


re: JUL LM- I will have scores posted no later than early in the day (PDT) 1AUG 

re: AUG LM- at which time I will also post the AUG LM threads.  Feel free to begin writing, the prompt is "dead and dreaming"  

Still need judges for AUG.  As of now we have one committed judge.  Three more would be ideal, please and thank you.    Remember to PM me directly and don't post your interest on the board because it's Anonymous August!


----------



## Mish

velo said:


> Ma'am, the prompt is open to a wide variety of interpretations.  Feel free to experiment.  What does it mean to YOU?



Does it have to be dead dead? Can it be of a theme "The taste of this apple made me feel dead inside and now I'm dreaming of a nicer apple"?


----------



## BornForBurning

> "The taste of this apple made me feel dead inside and now I'm dreaming of a nicer apple"?


Absolutely not your story must be grim surreal horror otherwise it's disqualified.
obviously just do what makes sense to you


----------



## seigfried007

Ma'am said:


> Regarding the August prompt, I have no idea what "dead and dreaming" means. Thoughts appreciated.





BornForBurning said:


> Absolutely not your story must be grim surreal horror otherwise it's disqualified.
> obviously just do what makes sense to you


_"*Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!*"_


----------



## Mish

seigfried007 said:


> _"*Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!*"_



It's a shame that this is the only sentence Lovercarft left us with. I wish he went the full Tolkien on [FONT=q_serif]R’lyehian[/FONT] language.


----------



## Mish

BornForBurning said:


> Absolutely not your story must be grim surreal horror otherwise it's disqualified.
> obviously just do what makes sense to you



That's pretty cool! I wonder if I write the full story in white if the judges will notice? It would be funny if such a story won and then there'll be "grumble, grumble, I can't believe a white page won a short story contest!"


----------



## bdcharles

Mish said:


> That's pretty cool! I wonder if I write the full story in white if the judges will notice? It would be funny if such a story won and then there'll be "grumble, grumble, I can't believe a white page won a short story contest!"


What is this devilry?


----------



## -xXx-

bdcharles said:


> What is this devilry?


you rang?



many sincere apologies to the *most.awesome.LM.authors-of-july.*
i have 62 pages of working notes.
for 12 submissions.
you do the math.

will supply some of the info
when my schedule slacks a better window-o-time.


----------



## velo

62? You may be taking this slightly too seriously.   

Scores/prompt will be up by tomorrow as promised.


----------



## Mish

-xXx- said:


> you rang?
> 
> View attachment 24105
> many sincere apologies to the *most.awesome.LM.authors-of-july.*
> i have 62 pages of working notes.
> for 12 submissions.
> you do the math.
> 
> will supply some of the info
> when my schedule slacks a better window-o-time.



That's pretty awesome! You're doing a great job! I can't wait to see the feedback.


----------



## Megan Pearson

-xXx- said:


> i have 62 pages of working notes.
> for 12 submissions.
> you do the math.




!. 


(What more need be said?)


----------



## -xXx-

velo said:


> 62? You may be taking this slightly too seriously.


words are a serious bit-o-business, kind sir.
collateral damage requires hip-waders in these parts.
jussayin'

after scores are posted,
i'll edit in some "good-to-know-thangs" here.
in *this* post.
no nekkid text.
mostly.
: D

-----append post-scores

3 broad classes
traditional
techish
horror

--grammarly grammar, low 9, cluster 15-29
note: plagiarism/substantial plagiarism
referencing identifiable word groupings increases this
---Coleman Liau index, Flesch Kincaid Grade Level, ARI (Automated Readability Index), SMOG
note: penalizes for polysyllabic words/long, complex sentences

----review tone vs style

-----reflect following
what is _feedback value_ for each author?

best-of-month <specific> for group

does this appear to be a pre-publication work
or
author's exercise in <area>

helpful, or not-so-much?
pls.n.thx


----------



## velo

Apologies, all.  I promised this morning but I got called by work at 0500 local.  I'll have everything up before I retire for the evening.


----------



## velo

ABout 12hrs late but scores and new comp are up.  Reminder that this month is *Anonymous August*.  Please PM your entries to me.  Don't forget to note if you want yours posted in the workshop thread.


----------



## velo

*August LM judging*

Thanks to those that volunteered.  We have 4 anonymous, black-hooded judges ready to pronounce sentence.  You have been warned.  

Now get writing!


----------



## velo

*Need 1 more judge*

Due to unfortunate circumstances, one of the judges will not be able to judge this month.  Anyone else want to take a go at it?  Please PM me with your intentions if so.  Thanks!


----------



## velo

We have 36 hours until the end of this month's contest.  Entries must be received in my inbox before 2000hrs PDT ( UTC-8 ) Saturday for them to be posted and considered for the contest.  I have posted every entry I've received so far.  

If you notice any formatting errors this may have been caused by copy/paste...please inform me asap and I will fix.  No content (text, punctuation) changes are allowed once posted, however.


----------



## velo

And please remember to include a word count (body only, title is not included) for your submission. Had several without this.


----------



## velo

Anonymous August is closed to entries.   Judges do your thing.  

I've put up a poll this month just for fun, readers can vote for their favourite HERE.  Sorry, no extra awards for the winner of the poll, just trying it out.  

Prompt suggestions for next month?


----------



## Mish

velo said:


> Prompt suggestions for next month?



- Crimson flower
- The worst betrayal
- Caught in a web
- Fearsome beast


----------



## velo

Second- 
Fearsome Beast
Caught in a Web

Suggest- 
Adrift
Alone in the Crowd


----------



## bdcharles

Suggest: 
Crossing the Bastard Crossing
Castles In America (courtesy of Ralph Rotten)


----------



## velo

Proposed and seconded last month by SueC but I missed putting in the poll- 

"There are two possibilities . . .either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying." _Arthur C. Clark

_@bdcharles please include in Sep.


----------



## Tim

Second--The worst betrayal.
Suggest--Deadly games.


----------



## BornForBurning

Suggest- 
Pure Unhallowed Blood
Give War a Chance! 
House of Infinite Forms


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Second-
Crimson Flower
Give War a Chance!

Suggest-
Nemesis Divine
The Devil is a Poser
Personal Ghost
Spirit Talk


----------



## velo

Also, bd is taking back the reigns for September.  I'll finish up all the loose ends for Aug so remaining judges (had two sets of scores super fast, thanks!) please still PM to me.


----------



## Fatclub

velo said:


> all the loose ends for Aug so remaining judges (had two sets of scores super fast, thanks!)


Could you tell the third one to hurry up?


----------



## Megan Pearson

Suggest:
That's Baltic!
All in omnishambles
Rhapsody in Blue   ~George Gershwin
Me & Bobby McGee   ~Janice Joplin


Second:
Adrift
Caught in a web


----------



## Megan Pearson

Here's a capital idea... what if we all guessed who wrote what, before the judges scores are released? 

After Velo has all the scores in, that is, and not before.


----------



## undead_av

Second: Spirit Talk

Suggest:
"And all the lousy little poets comin' round trying to sound like Charlie Manson" ~ from Leonard Cohen's The Future
Thorn of Crowns
Where Boys Fear To Tread
Tales Of A Scorched Earth
We Only Come Out At Night


----------



## bdcharles

undead_av said:


> Second: Spirit Talk
> 
> Suggest:
> "And all the lousy little poets comin' round trying to sound like Charlie Manson" ~ from Leonard Cohen's The Future
> Thorn of Crowns
> Where Boys Fear To Tread
> Tales Of A Scorched Earth
> We Only Come Out At Night



Someone’s been mining the Pumpkins’ back catalogue for inspiration 

Second: Tales of a Scorched Earth




Megan Pearson said:


> Here's a capital idea... what if we all guessed who wrote what, before the judges scores are released?





Megan Pearson said:


> After Velo has all the scores in, that is, and not before.



Capital! Let’s do it!


----------



## Fatclub

Fatclub said:


> Could you tell the third one to hurry up?


That was a joke, btw.

I'll second The Devil is a Poser.


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Second:
Where Boys Fear to Tread
Thorn of Crowns


----------



## Mish

Can we vote for more than one prompt? (once the voting thread goes up)


----------



## velo

I have all the scores but am AFK all weekend for a family event so Monday is the soonest I'll be able to publish.


----------



## bdcharles

Mish said:


> Can we vote for more than one prompt? (once the voting thread goes up)



It’s possible, yep. Might do that. I’ll put up a poll this weekend either way


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Suggestion:
Re-tell a fairy tale 

(I know we did this before but I want in!)


----------



## Phil Istine

Second: "There are two possibilities . . .either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying." _Arthur C. Clark_

Second:  Me & Bobby McGee   ~Janice Joplin

Propose:  Space bar

Propose:  Bogbrush Boris

Propose:  Self-driving pen


----------



## luckyscars

ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord said:


> Suggestion:
> Re-tell a fairy tale
> 
> (I know we did this before but I want in!)



I would second this (though I'm not sure if I'd participate) but really I'd like to suggest rather than designing LM around vague themes, which might not appeal to everybody and tend to result in people rehashing their own styles under the general umbrella and therefore not necessarily pushing themselves..why not design it around techniques, genre, etc?

"Write A Story In First Person Plural ('We', "Ours")"
"Write A Story In Future Tense"
"Write A Story In Second Person POV"
"Write A Story Without Using Any Abstract Nouns"
"Write A Story From The Point Of View Of A Dog/Cat/Piece Of Antique Furniture"
"Write A Gothic Romance"
"Write A Neo-Western"
"Write An Urban Fairytale"


----------



## bdcharles

luckyscars said:


> I would second this (though I'm not sure if I'd participate) but really I'd like to suggest rather than designing LM around vague themes, which might not appeal to everybody and tend to result in people rehashing their own styles under the general umbrella and therefore not necessarily pushing themselves..why not design it around techniques, genre, etc?
> 
> "Write A Story In First Person Plural ('We', "Ours")"
> "Write A Story In Future Tense"
> "Write A Story In Second Person POV"
> "Write A Story Without Using Any Abstract Nouns"
> "Write A Story From The Point Of View Of A Dog/Cat/Piece Of Antique Furniture"
> "Write A Gothic Romance"
> "Write A Neo-Western"
> "Write An Urban Fairytale"



I’m definitely keen on these sort of specific prompts and have suggested a couple in the past though they didn’t win. I also like the idea of having all seconded prompts as ~the~ prompt to write from (or the top three or whichever) and did promise to do this so I think Sept may be the month.


----------



## PiP

> Originally Posted by *luckyscars*
> 
> I would second this (though I'm not sure if I'd participate) but really I'd like to suggest rather than designing LM around vague themes, which might not appeal to everybody and tend to result in people rehashing their own styles under the general umbrella and therefore not necessarily pushing themselves..why not design it around techniques, genre, etc?
> 
> "Write A Story In First Person Plural ('We', "Ours")"
> "Write A Story In Future Tense"
> "Write A Story In Second Person POV"
> "Write A Story Without Using Any Abstract Nouns"
> "Write A Story From The Point Of View Of A Dog/Cat/Piece Of Antique Furniture"
> "Write A Gothic Romance"
> "Write A Neo-Western"
> "Write An Urban Fairytale"
> 
> 
> 
> I’m definitely keen on these sort of specific prompts and have suggested a couple in the past though they didn’t win.



As the challenge host, BD, why not try it one month? Some of the suggested prompts are so 'off the wall' they are often self-limiting.


----------



## SueC

> I would second this (though I'm not sure if I'd participate) but really I'd like to suggest rather than designing LM around vague themes, which might not appeal to everybody and tend to result in people rehashing their own styles under the general umbrella and therefore not necessarily pushing themselves..why not design it around techniques, genre, etc?
> 
> "Write A Story In First Person Plural ('We', "Ours")"
> "Write A Story In Future Tense"
> "Write A Story In Second Person POV"
> "Write A Story Without Using Any Abstract Nouns"
> "Write A Story From The Point Of View Of A Dog/Cat/Piece Of Antique Furniture"
> "Write A Gothic Romance"
> "Write A Neo-Western"
> "Write An Urban Fairytale"



I am so on board with this. I agree that, even though I am seeing some awesome stories lately, it is really a struggle to do something different on personal level when it is that big of a challenge to come up with anything that remotely resembles the prompt. For me, anyway, I find I am not focusing on the writing as much as I am trying to find the words that will relate to the prompt. I've managed to submit, but sometimes not until the very last week and that's because the prompt is either too obscure or I don't understand it. Please let's try something different and thank you! 

Just want to give a shout out to Velo, who did an awesome in your stead, BD.


----------



## Phil Istine

If you do go ahead with this, I would ask that first/second/third person isn't specified.  Second person would be weird.  I have done it for part of a very short piece, but its use seems extremely limited.


----------



## -xXx-

_n_ed:


BornForBurning said:


> House of Infinite Forms





Mish said:


> Can we vote for more than one prompt? (once the voting thread goes up)





Phil Istine said:


> Space bar





luckyscars said:


> "Write An Urban Fairytale"





bdcharles said:


> <snip> I also like the idea of having all seconded prompts as ~the~ prompt to write from (or the top three or whichever)...



add:
sense says


----------



## luckyscars

Phil Istine said:


> If you do go ahead with this, I would ask that first/second/third person isn't specified.  Second person would be weird.  I have done it for part of a very short piece, but its use seems extremely limited.



All the more reason to do it.

The LM, as it stands, is essentially a rerun of the same contest each month. Yes the 'theme' changes and is sometimes incorporated more integrally some months than others, but generally there's little or no difference/increase in challenge or even, often, in subject matter. At least nothing that originates from the contest itself because it's so loose.

I have read the entries. With a few, notable exceptions, and I see much the same styles being slightly reconfigured from month to month. That's fine, if all we want is a writing prompt and some decent critique. But I personally feel it would be more interesting, and probably more useful to push people out of their comfort zones.


----------



## BornForBurning

I think a lot of slam is done in second person. One thing to remember is that making the prompt too esoteric or specific will result in less people submitting as opposed to pushing them out of their comfort zone. I also have an odd instinct that people can just wrangle any prompt into 'their comfort zone' if they think about it hard enough. Hell, that's kind of the point. Taking the prompt and putting your spin on it.


----------



## luckyscars

BornForBurning said:


> I think a lot of slam is done in second person. One thing to remember is that making the prompt too esoteric or specific will result in less people submitting as opposed to pushing them out of their comfort zone. I also have an odd instinct that people can just wrangle any prompt into 'their comfort zone' if they think about it hard enough. Hell, that's kind of the point. Taking the prompt and putting your spin on it.



Point taken. What I am saying is that any competent writer can take a prompt like 'dead and dreaming' and write a story to 650 words without too much trouble. 

If the goal is to just get people writing something each month, the LM prompts are fine. But I thought this was Literary MANEUVERS. Maneuvering requires challenge. Do those who enter these religiously each month honestly feel as though they are being challenged?

If the goal is to try to help people improve through the design of the contest itself, then I think the prompt should try to encourage trying new things.


----------



## epimetheus

luckyscars said:


> Do those who enter these religiously each month honestly feel as though they are being challenged?



Yes.


----------



## PiP

A reminder to LM challenge participants: we now have a dedicated category to WF Challenge winners.

the latest published work is _Through a hole, darkly_ by [URL="https://www.flashesofbrilliance.org/through-hole-darkly-nathan-blake-prize-challenge/#.XWJPbEd7m70"]epimetheus[/URL] 

Please stop by and support the website.


----------



## Phil Istine

I suppose it's about setting an unusual task vs. maximising participation.  It may be that one doesn't necessarily preclude the other.  I'm sure there must be a balance somewhere.


----------



## Ma'am

My two coppers:

First, I didn't know about the WF challenge winners being published in _Flashes_. Are the winning entries published there automatically? 

Congrats to the winners, either way!

Also, I already said most of this elsewhere but I don't think I presented it as a whole. So... if I could change anything about the flash fiction contests, I'd have simpler judging in exchange for more contests. Have the judges simply pick their first, second and third choices without comment (or with comments optional). Then let the entrants put their stories in the workshop afterwards, if they want critiques on them. Critiques are already available on a different part of the forum.

Then, make these simplified contests once per week rather than once per month. Some people expressed concern that more contests would cut down on the number of entrants for each contest, but that remains to be seen. It could also easily attract more contestants instead. 

Also, I'd make the length limit 1,000 words rather than 650 words. That's because the cut-off for most of the publications is 1,000 words for flash fiction and I think a writing forum should strive to help writers achieve that ultimate goal of publication. A 650 word story can be at a disadvantage when competing with stories that can be up to one third longer. 

I believe the argument there was that a higher word count is too much extra work for the judges but if critiquing was separated from contest judging, then it wouldn't be.

I'm halfway considering starting a site just for weekly contests, just for fun. But of course I'd rather just be a participant with that on an already-existing writing forum. Contests are good motivation and it's fun to see what others do with the same prompts. 

If we had more contests, maybe we could vote for prompts a month at a time or something like that and give writers more time to fit in all that extra writing practice!


----------



## PiP

The LM has been running since the year dot and is WF's Flagship challenge. Winners of the LM also qualify for the yearly Prize Challenge (providing we have a sponsor). I think it should continue as is. However, if you would like to create an additional weekly challenge, with an alternative judging method and someone is willing to host,  we could utilse this board https://www.writingforums.com/forums/60-WF-Challenges


----------



## Ma'am

PiP said:


> The LM has been running since the year dot and is WF's Flagship challenge. Winners of the LM also qualify for the yearly Prize Challenge (providing we have a sponsor). I think it should continue as is. However, if you would like to create an additional weekly challenge, with an alternative judging method and someone is willing to host,  we could utilse this board https://www.writingforums.com/forums/60-WF-Challenges



Could the entries there be posted behind a password to protect the writers' first publication rights? If so, I'd love to host it.

Also, fwiw, I am not sure how else this could work, exactly, so just as food for thought... Some of the scores on the LM challenges vary quite widely. This is not meant as a criticism of the judges because we all did what we were asked to do and all one can do, which is to give our honest opinions. To me, for example, this month's scores seemed pretty much clustered around the middle, with none standing out to me as very high or very low. Others saw it differently, which is absolutely fine. However, it seems one "extreme" score (for lack of a better word) carries more weight than the others combined. It can basically determine alone who wins, or rule someone out of the running for winning, regardless of the other scores that story receives. I wonder if it would be more fair to use some kind of simple formula to lessen the effect of one very high or very low score carrying more than its fair share of weight. For example, only counting the average of the middle two scores, or omitting a score if it's a certain number of points above or below the average of the other scores' total, or whatever.

Sorry if I'm being annoying with all these suggestions. I realize the contests are only for fun but I'm still kind of a stickler (dork) about games and contests.


----------



## epimetheus

Ma'am said:


> For example, only counting the average of the middle two scores, or omitting a score if it's a certain number of points above or below the average of the other scores' total, or whatever.



You're talking about taking the median score. It's not a bad idea, and is an established way of controlling for outliers.


----------



## bdcharles

epimetheus said:


> You're talking about taking the median score. It's not a bad idea, and is an established way of controlling for outliers.



Do we want to control for outliers though? Surely if something is exceptional for even one judge the scores would ideally reflect that? Otherwise it suggests that judges scores in a way can’t be trusted and might be artificially high or low imo


----------



## velo

Nope.  Completely disagree with anything other than mean average or total accumulated points.  Fiction writing is subjective, period.  You can't math the emotion out of it.  If you did, there would be no point in entering because the whole point is to get better at extracting an emotional response from the reader.  

Outliers are part of it.  I've had stories with one judge taking a really harsh or positive view and I've learned a lot from them.  Those outliers are important and should be factored in.


----------



## epimetheus

bdcharles said:


> Do we want to control for outliers though? Surely if something is exceptional for even one judge the scores would ideally reflect that? Otherwise it suggests that judges scores in a way can’t be trusted and might be artificially high or low imo



That is a perennial question in stats: is that outlier really erroneous or are you just throwing away good data.


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

epimetheus said:


> That is a perennial question in stats: is that outlier really erroneous or are you just throwing away good data.



Part of it is also that some judges score on average higher or lower. I've noticed that for some judges the score range is 15-20 while for others the range is more like 5-16. This would make evaluating for outliers really difficult.


----------



## bdcharles

OK guys, keep with the suggestions and seconds. You'll notice I haven't put up a poll like I said I would. That's because I'm going to have all seconded prompts as prompts to choose from. Madness? Idiocy? A stroke of genius? Possibly all of the above, possibly none   We'll keep with the new scoring system too.

Oh ... I almost forgot. Judges? Yes, judges. Sign below:

_________________________
_________________________
_________________________
_________________________


----------



## PiP

bdcharles said:


> OWe'll keep with the new scoring system too.
> _



What new scoring system?


----------



## -xXx-

democracy happens


----------



## bdcharles

luckyscars said:


> All the more reason to do it.
> 
> The LM, as it stands, is essentially a rerun of the same contest each month. Yes the 'theme' changes and is sometimes incorporated more integrally some months than others, but generally there's little or no difference/increase in challenge or even, often, in subject matter. At least nothing that originates from the contest itself because it's so loose.
> 
> I have read the entries. With a few, notable exceptions, and I see much the same styles being slightly reconfigured from month to month. That's fine, if all we want is a writing prompt and some decent critique. But I personally feel it would be more interesting, and probably more useful to push people out of their comfort zones.



Agreed. Velo has shown me the light. It needs to be kept fresh. I'm going to make each month's have some variation, based possibly on what we all chat about here, or from anything else that happens to come to mind. Details will be in the coffee shop each month after the previous comp's entry period ends (i.e. middle of the month or thenabouts)


----------



## bdcharles

-xXx- said:


> democracy happens



Thanks. I was quailing at the thought of going through the history to find where that was. Quailing, I tells ya.

Or was it some other flightless bird?


----------



## epimetheus

ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord said:


> Part of it is also that some judges score on average higher or lower. I've noticed that for some judges the score range is 15-20 while for others the range is more like 5-16. This would make evaluating for outliers really difficult.



As long as judges are consistent within a range then that's fine. If you have a judge marking in the range 15-20 and another 10-15, then the entrants' average marks will be fine: the difference in the judges average scores will not influence the final positions. A 'problem' can occur if the standard deviation of the judges scores are very different. For instance this LM one judge had a standard deviation of 1.2 while another had 2.7. That latter judge is going to have more weight in determining the relative final positions of the entrants, regardless of what each individual judge's average is. If needed, you can control that quite easily by standardising the scores, which takes into account the variance of individual judges. 

This is a different issue to determining whether outliers are erroneous or not. In this instance i would agree with velo, they are useful data.


----------



## bdcharles

luckyscars said:


> I would second this (though I'm not sure if I'd participate) but really I'd like to suggest rather than designing LM around vague themes, which might not appeal to everybody and tend to result in people rehashing their own styles under the general umbrella and therefore not necessarily pushing themselves..why not design it around techniques, genre, etc?
> 
> "Write A Story In First Person Plural ('We', "Ours")"
> "Write A Story In Future Tense"
> "Write A Story In Second Person POV"
> "Write A Story Without Using Any Abstract Nouns"
> "Write A Story From The Point Of View Of A Dog/Cat/Piece Of Antique Furniture"
> "Write A Gothic Romance"
> "Write A Neo-Western"
> "Write An Urban Fairytale"



With this, I'll edge the prompts in this direction for October or thenabouts (I know, I know - swear word, even this late in the summer*). Would do it sooner but I didn't want to cheat anyone one of their already-suggested prompts this time. 



* apologies for the Northern Hemisphere bias


----------



## bdcharles

epimetheus said:


> As long as judges are consistent within a range then that's fine. If you have a judge marking in the range 15-20 and another 10-15, then the entrants' average marks will be fine: the difference in the judges average scores will not influence the final positions. A 'problem' can occur if the standard deviation of the judges scores are very different. For instance this LM one judge had a standard deviation of 1.2 while another had 2.7. That latter judge is going to have more weight in determining the relative final positions of the entrants, regardless of what each individual judge's average is. If needed, you can control that quite easily by standardising the scores, which takes into account the variance of individual judges.
> 
> This is a different issue to determining whether outliers are erroneous or not. In this instance i would agree with velo, they are useful data.



Is there some way it can be demonstrated simply? Does something like https://www.mathsisfun.com/data/standard-deviation-formulas.html fit the bill?


----------



## -xXx-

bdcharles said:


> Or was it some other flightless bird?


darren has a cool flightless.
jussayin'




bdcharles said:


> With this, I'll edge the prompts in this direction for October or thenabouts (I know, I know - swear word, even this late in the summer*). Would do it sooner but I didn't want to cheat anyone one of their already-suggested prompts this time.
> 
> 
> 
> * apologies for the Northern Hemisphere bias



call for september prompts reference clicky


----------



## Fatclub

ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord said:


> I've noticed that for some judges the score range is 15-20 while for others the range is more like 5-16.


 You're allowed to use my name if you like. 

AitBotL and Ma'am, Excellent points.

Firstly, this is why I give reasons for my points. Even if I'm wrong about SPaG, which I could well be, at least you _know_ I'm wrong. Though, sometimes I type comments like I believe I'm right when I'm not sure. No hard feelings.

Secondly, I _think_ I voted for the _overall_ score method when we voted a few weeks ago, so that the winner wouldn't come down to a maths question. If you love a story - then away with the maths, give it the most points. Obviously, my own favourite stories, if you look at 'Reaction', didn't make top three this time. (I wasn't allowed to mark my favourite story). 

Thirdly, I've mentioned once or twice, months ago,that a judge like me could pick the winner and loser by way of the 6-16 thing you mentioned if every other judge is scoring 15 - 20. I was glad my low marks didn't take away Tim's win because, as before, I'm a bit out of kilter with the other judges.

Having said that, Velo's comments look good too.


----------



## Phil Istine

-xXx- said:


> democracy happens



They didn't know what they were voting for.  I want another poll.
Seriously, I don't feel that truncating outliers' votes is a good idea.  So long as an _individual_ judge is reasonably consistent there needn't be an issue.  I remember an entry a few years ago (I can't be bothered to search for it) where the MC was building up to an act of suicide.  The language used was very bland, almost over-simplistic.  I couldn't work out if it was an awfully-written piece or a brilliantly-written piece.  I regarded the very simple language as the voice that might be right for someone who had had enough of life and was about to end it, but the simplicity could also have been because the writer didn't know how to embellish language.  These two extremes were reflected in two of the judges' comments.  Maybe I'll look for it one day and decide, now that I've written more words.  An outlier vote in either direction was valid for that piece.


----------



## PiP

My concern is that the Poets in progress challenge changed a workable judging rubric which everyone understood, to something quite bizarre which resulted in the demise and ultimate death of the challenge. The LM is an established challenge and has worked well. I am concerned we are trying to fix something that ain't broken...  what happens on the occasions where you only end up with two judges?


----------



## bdcharles

PiP said:


> My concern is that the Poets in progress challenge changed a workable judging rubric which everyone understood, to something quite bizarre which resulted in the demise and ultimate death of the challenge. The LM is an established challenge and has worked well. I am concerned we are trying to fix something that ain't broken...  what happens on the occasions where you only end up with two judges?



I agree - feature-creep is the death of many good projects. While on one hand it would be interesting to see what happens to scores when adjusted for various outlying conditions, on the other I don't see a huge appetite or need to change it, and I'm all about keeping things as accessible as possible (apart from my prose, which is frequently orchid-blue in shade) so will make no changes to the scoring just now. 

As for what happens when we have two judges: a. that rarely happens (Reminder! Reminder! Anyone to judge for Sept?!) and b. is it that important anyway? Even if there was ony one judge (as some other online comps have), would that matter? A win is a win, no matter how scattered the applause, and if someone doesn't agree with it they generally get involved next time to balance things out. This is why I list the judges most times - so you can see who you're getting and manage your expectations. And it seems to me the system works quite well. I saw on the other thread there was talk of a parallel comp though, where the scoring might be different, so maybe there's scope for that there.


----------



## epimetheus

bdcharles said:


> Is there some way it can be demonstrated simply? Does something like https://www.mathsisfun.com/data/standard-deviation-formulas.html fit the bill?



That explains the standard deviation nicely. The z-score follows from this understanding: from the same website.

Or for videos i'd always recommend Khan Academy: zscores, standard deviation.

Here are this months scores z-transformed. The average of each judges score is zero - so if an entry is + it is better than average for that judge, if it is - then it is below average.



StoryAuthorMa'amEpimetheusFatclub-xXx-Average1 Dead and DreamingTim0.95570.8310.5160.9960.8252 Joe Hill - 1915SueC1.601-1.5251.245-1.432-0.0283 Exhibit AMish0.794-0.4380.1520.9960.3764 One Dead, One DreamingFatclub-0.819-0.257---0.187_Judge[-_0.296]5 Moodswingsbdcharles0.7940.287-0.2130.1890.2646 Northern LightsLuckyscars0.794-1.707-0.9410.187-0.4177 WAR BRIDEPlaidman-0.8190.6491.609-0.6230.2048 Black Wings of EverwakingArrowInTheBowOfTheLord0.7941.3740.1520.1870.6279 The BreathlessBigBagOfBasmatiRice-1.626-0.2570.8800.187-0.20410 But I Haven't Seen DubaiEpimetheus-0.819----0.5770.996_Judge [-0.133]_11Dead and DreamingMegan Pearson-0.012-0.620-0.213-0.623-0.36712 The Harpistundead_av-0.8191.314-2.034-2.242-0.93013 MorningstarBornForBurning-0.8190.287-0.57670.996-0.028

So what new things does this tell us?

First, Tim's Dead and Dreaming was actually head and shoulders above the rest - all the judges loved it. First and second place haven't changed but Mish's Exhibit A is now third. Last place has also changed. Sue's Joe Hill was a particularly polarising entry receiving very high and very low scores: harnessing the power of Marmite. And most illustrative of the technique: the lowest single opinion from the judges was not the 6 Fatclub gave, but the 15 xXx gave. xXx's scores rarely fall below 17, so to see a 15 is significant - but in normal scoring it doesn't contribute much to the overall scoring. 

From the judges perspective, Fatclub and myself had the greatest standard deviation in the normal scoring, meaning we influenced the outcome of the final scores more than xXx and Ma'am. The z-transformed data corrects for this, and all judge's opinions are weighted evenly.

This isn't necessarily a better way or somehow 'more true', it's just a different way of looking at the data. It has the advantage of more objectively measuring the relative scores of the judges, by correcting for their own 'clustering' behaviour, but you lose interpretability and any meaning the original scores had. I personally like having this format too, as it reveals more structure in the data, but i'm sure most people won't like it because no one likes stats.


----------



## Ma'am

I see there are several different valid ways to look at it.

Excellent post, epimetheus. Very interesting!


----------



## -xXx-

epimetheus said:


> <snip>And most illustrative of the technique: the lowest single opinion from the judges was not the 6 Fatclub gave, but the 15 xXx gave. xXx's scores rarely fall below 17, so to see a 15 is significant - but in normal scoring it doesn't contribute much to the overall scoring.
> <snip>
> This isn't necessarily a better way or somehow 'more true', it's just a different way of looking at the data. It has the advantage of more objectively measuring the relative scores of the judges, by correcting for their own 'clustering' behaviour, but you lose interpretability and any meaning the original scores had. I personally like having this format too, as it reveals more structure in the data, but i'm sure most people won't like it _because no one likes stats._


*i r no ones.*
ref 
complex adaptive systems
outcomes theory
*retrieve phenom here*



imho, acknowledging that eval and react *can be* independent aspects is valid.

i support the creation of a "classroom" challenge,
by and for those interested in such.
_refer to the pip challenge history as mentioned in this thread._

i support the judging manual intention for this LM monthly challenge.



> Understand this competition is about fun, so have a good time with it.


 
i support encouraging emerging writers and providing a 
learn-thru-play creative space for all writers to experiment with
and/or practice areas of personal focus.

*diversity of submissions and scoring.*
my approach to scoring has evolved.

this batch AS specific application of theory:
*first read*, note disruptive/distracting "mechanics".
no one is perfect, because there is no consistent objective/absolute
for fiction.

*next read*, note essential overlaps between submissions.
expect no clean edges.
this batch fell into 4 gross categories and one isolate, which i "brand".
*governing concept IS theme.
category IS application.*
- 2
- 4 
- 3
- 3 
- 1
*construction IS implementation.*
*next read*, note embedded content and extract.
*next read*, from the perspective of the writer-what is the _story arc_?
list
*next read*, from the perspective of the writer-is this a _developmental exercise_?
list

_this is where the scoring process breaks down with a large pool
of "experienced/professional" submissions._
one *top score* per category and category sort list *iterations*.
*addition/subtraction* of listed observations.
identify *one unique strength* relative to entire group.

*the reality of more than one success.
even within category.*

in the beginning, i attempted to look from
a _publications-with-limited-space_ perspective.
i returned to the _what-motivates-me-to-write_ perspective.
*weaknesses are no mystery* to me.
what are my strengths?
what are my unique strengths?
how do i *build on those*?
the weaknesses *weather-to-fit* as the construction
of the implementation *thrives* and *stretches* toward
incremental goals.

i am _averse to low scoring any writer_
simply to create "*a linear outcome of one*".

*completely unqualified*
*in all areas*
*all of the time*
*k.*
*seems pretty clear*

return to regular programming


-xXx- said:


> call for september prompts reference clicky


*loves this challenge*
*go ahead*
*guess how many hours this takes*
*for every entry above 4*
*which i anticipate*
*to become stratospheric*
loves, loves this challenge*


----------



## SueC

epimetheus said:


> This is a different issue to determining whether outliers are erroneous or not. In this instance i would agree with velo, they are useful data.



I feel so stupid asking this, but I must. Please - what is an "outlier." No snickering!


----------



## seigfried007

SueC said:


> I feel so stupid asking this, but I must. Please - what is an "outlier." No snickering!



It's something way out of bounds for your data set. In statistics, it's generally stuff over three standard deviations away from whatever's normal in the set. 

If a data set has the weights of household pets in a given neighborhood, and someone keeps a cow indoors... that cow's an outlier. To include the cow would skew the statistics by making it appear that people keep some mighty big dogs in that neighborhood  

If the household income in an area is being measured, and there's one multi-billionaire in a sea of people who live below the poverty line, that rich person's an outlier. Conversely, if a homeless person lives in a cardboard box in a super swanky neighborhood, he's an outlier because everyone else is millionaires, and he eats garbage.


----------



## Mish

seigfried007 said:


> It's something way out of bounds for your data set. In statistics, it's generally stuff over three standard deviations away from whatever's normal in the set.



That's just your opinion!

Where I come from we all know an "Outlier" is a circumstance that comes about after a liar is outed!


----------



## Megan Pearson

-xXx- said:


> i support encouraging emerging writers and providing a
> learn-thru-play creative space for all writers to experiment with
> and/or practice areas of personal focus.



Oh my gosh, this should be the LM challenge's motto!


----------



## -xXx-

-xXx- said:


> i support the judging manual intention for this LM monthly challenge.
> 
> 
> 
> Understand this competition is about fun, so have a good time with it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i support encouraging emerging writers and providing a
> learn-thru-play creative space for all writers to experiment with
> and/or practice areas of personal focus.
Click to expand...




Megan Pearson said:


> Oh my gosh, this should be the LM challenge's motto!



*plays eyeball tennis*
the second one is a little verbose, doncha' think?


----------



## luckyscars

All wrong. An outlier is somebody who lies so much they get thrown out of the lying club. They usually end up becoming successful authors.


----------



## bdcharles

Judges, I need four of you! Remember, September's comp will use all seconded prompts so it could make for very varied reading.


----------



## BornForBurning

I'll judge.


----------



## luckyscars

I have some free time in September so I'll volunteer.


----------



## SueC

I feel I missed something. It's the end of August, but there are no prompts for September yet, which should start tomorrow. Just asking. No pressure. Heh.


----------



## velo

Sue, all seconded prompts are going to be valid for September- author's choice.


----------



## SueC

Velo, I can judge this month too.  Is there a list of the seconded prompts? I must have missed some of the discussions. Thanks.


----------



## -xXx-

SueC said:


> Velo, I can judge this month too.  Is there a list of the seconded prompts? I must have missed some of the discussions. Thanks.


*grabs notepad*
*runs*


----------



## -xXx-

bdcharles said:


> I’m definitely keen on these sort of specific prompts and have suggested a couple in the past though they didn’t win. I also like *the idea of having all seconded prompts *as ~the~ prompt to write from (or the top three or whichever) and did promise to do this so I think *Sept* may be the *month*.





bdcharles said:


> Judges, I need four of you! Remember, *September's comp will use all seconded prompts* so it could make for very varied reading.



697
mish
*- Crimson flower* , arrow
*- The worst betrayal* , tim
*- Caught in a web* , velo , megan
*- Fearsome beast* , velo

velo
*Adrift* , megan
Alone in the Crowd 

bd
Crossing the Bastard Crossing
Castles In America (courtesy of Ralph Rotten) 

velo, suec carry forward
*"There are two possibilities . . .either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying." Arthur C. Clark
*
@bdcharles please include in Sep. + phil

tim
Deadly games.

b4b
Pure Unhallowed Blood
*Give War a Chance!* , arrow
*House of Infinite Forms* , x

arrow
Nemesis Divine
*The Devil is a Poser* , fatclub
Personal Ghost
*Spirit Talk* , undead
+
*Re-tell a fairy tale* , lucky

megan
That's Baltic!
All in omnishambles
Rhapsody in Blue ~George Gershwin
*Me & Bobby McGee ~Janice Joplin* , phil

undead
"And all the lousy little poets comin' round trying to sound like Charlie Manson" ~ from Leonard Cohen's The Future
*Thorn of Crowns* , arrow
*Where Boys Fear To Tread* , arrow
*Tales Of A Scorched Earth* , bd
We Only Come Out At Night 

phil
Propose: *Space bar* , x
Propose: Bogbrush Boris
Propose: Self-driving pen

lucky (_possible october start point,_ 743)
"Write A Story In First Person Plural ('We', "Ours")"
"Write A Story In Future Tense"
"Write A Story In Second Person POV"
"Write A Story Without Using Any Abstract Nouns"
"Write A Story From The Point Of View Of A Dog/Cat/Piece Of Antique Furniture"
"Write A Gothic Romance"
"Write A Neo-Western"
_"Write An Urban Fairytale" , x_

x
sense says 


diverse?
we got that!

*let me know if you catch an error*


----------



## bdcharles

SueC said:


> Velo, I can judge this month too.  Is there a list of the seconded prompts? I must have missed some of the discussions. Thanks.


Yes though it’s back to me hosting. We are using all seconded prompts which I’ll list in the blurb tomorrow .


----------



## bdcharles

BornForBurning said:


> I'll judge.





luckyscars said:


> I have some free time in September so I'll volunteer.



Thanks guys. Got a full deck of four now  comp’ll go up tomorrow


----------



## velo

Well, no one can complain that the one prompt doesn't speak to them...which is my usual excuse.


----------



## Mish

*Warning!*

If "Space Bar" is chosen as a prompt, I will have the whole story set inside a space bar with the protagonist typing on a laptop frequently hitting space bar and the protagonist's name will be Bartholomew "Space" Bar. Space cadets will be barred from the bar and the bar will have a lot of space.

You've been warned!


----------



## SueC

From BD:


> Pick your own title, write about whatever you want, in whatever prose style and interpreted as you see fit, *as long as it's related in some way to one of the prompts below. You can include which prompt you used though that is optional.*



So, if the writers don't include which prompt they used, how are we, the judges, supposed to figure out if they have met the goal of including it? I think this puts an added burden on the judges, to go through the list of prompt to figure out if the story fits one of them.

I think it should be included. My two cents. Yay!


----------



## bdcharles

SueC said:


> From BD:
> 
> 
> So, if the writers don't include which prompt they used, how are we, the judges, supposed to figure out if they have met the goal of including it? I think this puts an added burden on the judges, to go through the list of prompt to figure out if the story fits one of them.
> 
> I think it should be included. My two cents. Yay!



Yeah, I did think about that, but then it also encourages writers to make the link to the prompts clear. If it isn't too clear, and it isn't stated, I would say let that reflect in your score. I mean, you could still include the prompt still struggle to see it in the actual submission.


----------



## SueC

bdcharles said:


> Yeah, I did think about that, but then it also encourages writers to make the link to the prompts clear. If it isn't too clear, and it isn't stated, I would say let that reflect in your score. I mean, you could still include the prompt still struggle to see it in the actual submission.



I understand that is the way it is - already part of the comp, so it can't be changed. But that still makes it responsibility of the judges to try and determine if the story has one of 14 prompts incorporated somehow. Just wanting to clairfy - thanks BD


----------



## Mish

I saw "Choose a prompt!" challenge is up. So, can we choose a couple of prompts for September to use in our story? Any extra points for using more than one prompt in one story?


----------



## bdcharles

Mish said:


> I saw "Choose a prompt!" challenge is up. So, can we choose a couple of prompts for September to use in our story? Any extra points for using more than one prompt in one story?



You’re welcome to take that chance


----------



## Fatclub

SueC said:


> I understand that is the way it is - already part of the comp, so it can't be changed. But that still makes it responsibility of the judges to try and determine if the story has one of 14 prompts incorporated somehow. Just wanting to clairfy - thanks BD


Surely the writer makes it obvious or he mentions it with the title. Or you mark him down, simples!


----------



## bdcharles

SueC said:


> I understand that is the way it is - already part of the comp, so it can't be changed. But that still makes it responsibility of the judges to try and determine if the story has one of 14 prompts incorporated somehow. Just wanting to clairfy - thanks BD



Ok, yes, I see what you mean - it's not so much seeing if one prompt is there, but cross checking against a possible fourteen. Okay, yes - entrants please mention the prompt used.


----------



## velo

I'll give anyone 20 points if they can incorporate all the prompts and not make it cheesy or obvious.  

Since I'm not a judge this doesn't help you at all.


----------



## -xXx-

*preps matrix*
*uh, rubric*
*uh, comfortable reading chair*




-xXx- said:


> _org context_
> *retrieve phenom here*
> -Goodheart's Law-



return to regular programming

*loves this challenge*
*go ahead*
*guess how many hours this takes*
*for every entry above 4*
*which i anticipate*
*to become stratospheric*
loves, loves this challenge*


----------



## SueC

I wonder if someone could please update the "Judging Guide?" (Last updated in 2013) I have not judged in a while, and I know we have had a lot of discussion on this, but I can't seem to find anything that really helps knowing what "evaluation" means, how it differs from "reaction." Thanks!

https://www.writingforums.com/threads/140108-The-LM-Judging-Guide?p=1645518&viewfull=1#post1645518


----------



## -xXx-

SueC said:


> I wonder if someone could please update the "Judging Guide?" (Last updated in 2013) I have not judged in a while, and I know we have had a lot of discussion on this, but I can't seem to find anything that really helps knowing what *"evaluation" *means, how it differs from *"reaction."* Thanks!
> 
> https://www.writingforums.com/threads/140108-The-LM-Judging-Guide?p=1645518&viewfull=1#post1645518



governing is *FUN*

ref *etymonline*

*evaluation (n.)*
1755, "action of appraising or valuing," from French évaluation, noun of action from évaluer "to find the value of," from é- "out" (see ex-) + valuer, from Latin valere "be strong, be well; be of value, be worth" (from PIE root *wal- "to be strong"). Meaning "job performance review" attested by 1947.

----_evaluation-author's use of language (toolbox) to accomplish/present_

*reaction (n.)*
"action in resistance or response to another action or power," 1610s, from re- "again, anew" + action (q.v.). Modeled on French réaction, older Italian reattione, from Medieval Latin reactionem (nominative reactio), noun of action formed in Late Latin from past participle stem of Latin reagere "react," from re- "back" + agere "to do, perform" (from PIE root *ag- "to drive, draw out or forth, move"). 

Originally scientific; *physiological* sense is attested from 1805; _*psychological*_ sense first recorded 1887; general sense of "action or feeling in response" (to a statement, event, etc.) is recorded from 1914. Reaction time, _*"time elapsing between the action of an external stimulus and the giving of a signal in reply,"*_ attested by 1874.

----reaction-connection/disconnection point(s)

evaluation AS
author's *choice of devices to construct and present* to reader
-this would include "suspend disbelief" for duration of tale.
using just the August challenge submissions:
tools such as dialogue (how incorporated),
ambiguity/unreliable narrator,
VIVID priority scene placement,
open/close/wrap presentation

response AS
reader's *connect/disconnect to construction and/or intensity of that experience*
-could include jarring (not a smooth read),
disruptive/disjunctive that appear unintentional AND disconnect reader,
toooooo abstract ,
deeply offensive,
evokes empathy,
shocking,
etc

_*is that a starting point of value (and/or consensus)?*_
apples and oranges still come out apples and oranges....
good writers are good writers.


----------



## Trollheart

79 pages, so forgive me if this has been asked already, but how does the "September Seconds" contest differ from Ma'am's Flash Fiction Challenge, as many (possibly all) of the prompts are in both? Just wondering; if I write a story on one of the prompts for one challenge is it okay to write one on the same prompt in the other, or is there any relationship between the two?


----------



## Ma'am

Trollheart said:


> 79 pages, so forgive me if this has been asked already, but how does the "September Seconds" contest differ from Ma'am's Flash Fiction Challenge, as many (possibly all) of the prompts are in both? Just wondering; if I write a story on one of the prompts for one challenge is it okay to write one on the same prompt in the other, or is there any relationship between the two?



If there's ever any overlap in the prompts for the two challenges in any given month, it would just be coincidental. The two challenges are completely different and separate.


----------



## Ma'am

Sorry I didn't have time to reply more fully earlier. Here are the differences between the two contests:

The Literary Maneuvers Challenge is once per month, with a 650 word limit. You get detailed scores and critiques from four judges, plus a badge under your name forevermore if you win, that shows with each post you make. Prompts are voted on each month by members. This challenge has been around here for some time.

The Lean and Mean Challenge is once per week, with a 1,000 word limit. You get simple votes from all members who care to vote. If you win, you get a $5 Amazon voucher and your screen name listed as a winner on a Winner's List (which has not been created yet since we haven't had time to have any winners yet). Prompts are listed in advance for a year.

So, they're both fun and each offers a little something different. Hope that clarifies.


----------



## Trollheart

Okay, thanks for that, Ma'am. I didn't realise the differences, and now that I check back, the only prompt common to both I can see is "A fairy-tale retold", which is a pretty broad subject anyway. Not sure I can do less than 650 words, but I guess I'll give it a go. 
Thanks again.
TH


----------



## CmdrTrailblazer

Seeing Troll's and the anonymous entries in the secure thread makes me a bit nervous that I put mine in the wrong place...


----------



## bdcharles

CmdrTrailblazer said:


> Seeing Troll's and the anonymous entries in the secure thread makes me a bit nervous that I put mine in the wrong place...



Nope you're good, as long as you are happy with it being visible to search engines, and non members, and in some legal sense "published" on WF


----------



## Trollheart

I must say I'm enjoying this enormously. I never in my life thought I would be able to write a coherent story in 650 words, and I didn't: the one I wrote for the current challenge went slightly over 1000. That's where the interesting stuff began. I had to start paring it back, cutting things out while still keeping the spirit of the story, and still having it make sense. It's a hell of an exercise in self-discipline, and it showed me that often, I write too much (as I knew already), more than perhaps is needed. That said, the story I wrote will later be re-adapted and lengthened, and stand as one of my own short stories, as I know I can develop the theme I began. It was very restricting, but in a good way, to have to obey the word limit, and I consider it a personal achievement that I managed to do so. So thanks for the challenge, and looking forward to more.


----------



## bdcharles

Trollheart said:


> I must say I'm enjoying this enormously. I never in my life thought I would be able to write a coherent story in 650 words, and I didn't: the one I wrote for the current challenge went slightly over 1000. That's where the interesting stuff began. I had to start paring it back, cutting things out while still keeping the spirit of the story, and still having it make sense. It's a hell of an exercise in self-discipline, and it showed me that often, I write too much (as I knew already), more than perhaps is needed. That said, the story I wrote will later be re-adapted and lengthened, and stand as one of my own short stories, as I know I can develop the theme I began. It was very restricting, but in a good way, to have to obey the word limit, and I consider it a personal achievement that I managed to do so. So thanks for the challenge, and looking forward to more.



This is great to hear, thanks! It means a lot


----------



## Tim

Trollheart said:


> I must say I'm enjoying this enormously. I never in my life thought I would be able to write a coherent story in 650 words, and I didn't: the one I wrote for the current challenge went slightly over 1000. That's where the interesting stuff began. I had to start paring it back, cutting things out while still keeping the spirit of the story, and still having it make sense. It's a hell of an exercise in self-discipline, and it showed me that often, I write too much (as I knew already), more than perhaps is needed. That said, the story I wrote will later be re-adapted and lengthened, and stand as one of my own short stories, as I know I can develop the theme I began. It was very restricting, but in a good way, to have to obey the word limit, and I consider it a personal achievement that I managed to do so. So thanks for the challenge, and looking forward to more.



What he said. This competition highlights the importance of editing and re-writing. For me at least. First I create a story then I go back and destroy the not-so-good bits.


----------



## velo

Tim said:


> What he said. This competition highlights the importance of editing and re-writing. For me at least. First I create a story then I go back and destroy the not-so-good bits.



Agreed.  If nothing else, participation in the LM has helped me immensely with 'killing my darlings,' which was always a massive challenge for me.  I feel that I've really tightened up a lot as a writer because of it.


----------



## Mish

-xXx- said:


> *evaluation (n.)*
> 1755,



1755 - A shocking year for Portugal!

[video=youtube;7vhPdKCNpGc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vhPdKCNpGc[/video]


----------



## bdcharles

Got a few days left on September's comp so get those last rereads done, edit them up and let's see 

Meanwhile, for next month we'll go with specific techniques (as suggested by luckyscars in this post) rather than general subject prompts. You can use one of the suggestions in the post, or come up with your own, but basically the idea is to choose a style to write to. Eg: "Write in the second person", "Write a lipogram", "Write in a genre you don't normally write in.", etc, and put that forward as a suggestion. Make sense? Great. As usual, second the ones you'd like to see in the final poll and we'll take the top 5 as our final ones to keep it a bit varied.

I'll kick it off.

Suggest: "Write a lipogram"


----------



## -xXx-

what would you think of adding an
"audience advisory rating"
to the LM challenge submissions process?

shock-jock has been around for quite
a long time, and has a certain place
in meaningful discourse.

i'm thinking instead of requesting
warning/trigger labels, maybe
asking each author to self classify
their content using the motion picture content rating system.

i'd like to see it as a submission requirement.

worth consideration/group discussion?


----------



## Mish

bdcharles said:


> Suggest: "Write a lipogram"



I'll see your lipogram and raise you "write in rhyme"!

Also, I'm happy with Luckyscars's's's's suggestions below:

"Write A Story From The Point Of View Of A Dog/Cat/Piece Of Antique Furniture"
"Write An Urban Fairytale"

Are we going to vote on which we choose for October? Or are we going to do "October Seconds"?


----------



## Trollheart

-xXx- said:


> what would you think of adding an
> "audience advisory rating"
> to the LM challenge submissions process?
> 
> shock-jock has been around for quite
> a long time, and has a certain place
> in meaningful discourse.
> 
> i'm thinking instead of requesting
> warning/trigger labels, maybe
> asking each author to self classify
> their content using the motion picture content rating system.
> 
> i'd like to see it as a submission requirement.
> 
> worth consideration/group discussion?


 I find this an odd suggestion from someone with your username... :lol::champagne:


----------



## velo

We already require warnings/disclaimers for certain topics like adult content, profanity, etc and the mods keep a good eye out for it.  We don't censor but require the labels so that readers can make an informed choice.  

I think they can colour the reading of certain pieces and remove surprise/tension building, especially in the LM, so I'm not a huge fan of them but they are a necessary thing as some readers can become pretty upset that the disclaimer wasn't there.  I see it as a matter of respect.  




-xXx- said:


> what would you think of adding an
> "audience advisory rating"
> to the LM challenge submissions process?
> 
> shock-jock has been around for quite
> a long time, and has a certain place
> in meaningful discourse.
> 
> i'm thinking instead of requesting
> warning/trigger labels, maybe
> asking each author to self classify
> their content using the motion picture content rating system.
> 
> i'd like to see it as a submission requirement.
> 
> worth consideration/group discussion?


----------



## seigfried007

We're not allowed to submit more than one, are we? It's been so long since I've done LM that I'm totally out of the loop on everything anymore. Seems like every time I come back to it, things are done very differently. Feels like I'm stepping into the Twilight Zone (cue Golden Earring)


----------



## SueC

seigfried007 said:


> We're not allowed to submit more than one, are we? It's been so long since I've done LM that I'm totally out of the loop on everything anymore. Seems like every time I come back to it, things are done very differently. Feels like I'm stepping into the Twilight Zone (cue Golden Earring)



Hey Seigfried! To be honest, I have not heard this question asked before, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there is only one submission for LM comps per writer. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I always felt to be true of the comp.


----------



## bdcharles

Mish said:


> Are we going to vote on which we choose for October? Or are we going to do "October Seconds"?



I was thinking about using the top 5


----------



## bdcharles

seigfried007 said:


> We're not allowed to submit more than one, are we? It's been so long since I've done LM that I'm totally out of the loop on everything anymore. Seems like every time I come back to it, things are done very differently. Feels like I'm stepping into the Twilight Zone (cue Golden Earring)





SueC said:


> Hey Seigfried! To be honest, I have not heard this question asked before, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there is only one submission for LM comps per writer. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I always felt to be true of the comp.



The comp rules say one per member so we’ll stick with that - for this month’s comp. For another month, who knows?


----------



## bdcharles

Think I’ll start work on an updated guide for the LM from tomorrow eve...


----------



## PiP

The WF challenges are restricted to one entry per member.


----------



## bdcharles

OK, Sept comp is closed and the scores have started to roar in! Next month we will write to a suggested technique, so get your ideas in about what that might be. For example, write a piece in the second person; write a piece from the POV of a well-known antagonist, anything. Have a think; suggest and second them below. Go!


----------



## velo

Suggest- 

Second person 
Rhyming prose 
No words more than two syllables


----------



## Mish

Second:
Rhyming prose

Also:
"write in rhyme"
"Write A Story From The Point Of View Of A Dog/Cat/Piece Of Antique Furniture"
"Write An Urban Fairytale"


----------



## BornForBurning

Second: Write an Urban Fairytale
Suggest: Write a story in a fantasy version of a real historical period/event (fantasy WWII, fantasy Mongol Empire, etc)


----------



## Theglasshouse

Second both if possible: Write a story in a fantasy version of a real historical period/event (fantasy WWII, fantasy Mongol Empire, etc) and write an urban fairy tale.
Suggest a story that incorporates tourism.


----------



## luckyscars

Write a story in nothing other than dialogue (tags are acceptable, but nothing more)


----------



## PiP

luckyscars said:


> Write a story in nothing other than dialogue (tags are acceptable, but nothing more)



I'll second


----------



## luckyscars

Write a story from the *point of view* of an incurable disease/condition (can be physical or mental).

 "_My host has struggled to breathe for ten days now. Wheezing day and night, he sends things to kill me, but I survive."_


----------



## seigfried007

luckyscars said:


> Write a story from the *point of view* of an incurable disease/condition (can be physical or mental).
> 
> "_My host has struggled to breathe for ten days now. Wheezing day and night, he sends things to kill me, but I survive."_


Sounds like a good way to get a lot of dark stories that all sound roughly the same and are depressing as hell to judge. You've already specified the (unhappy) ending.


----------



## luckyscars

seigfried007 said:


> Sounds like a good way to get a lot of dark stories that all sound roughly the same and are depressing as hell to judge. You've already specified the (unhappy) ending.



Nah it was just an example. I was thinking more along the lines of maybe stories about weird phobias, eating disorders, and so on. Doesn't have to be depressing nor repetitive. Drunkenness is technically an incurable condition and that can be a hoot. Flatulence?


----------



## seigfried007

If someone lives long enough and gets appropriate care, most things are eventually curable. I've known alcoholics who are teetotalers now. I know people can get over phobias. 

Issue was more that the condition is specified to be a disease and incurable, so those are two stipulations the writer has to work with. More stipulations means less freedom for the author (most other prompts only have one stipulation). You've also specified POV, so that's three strikes against freedom. 

The worst part is that the wording naturally lends itself to less creative interpretations so you're more likely to get a bunch of people dying in hospitals with incurable cancers and flus and such. It's the "thinking inside the box" approach. 

What's funny about it to me is that in microbiology (and immunology, for that matter), we're constantly struggling against the personification of the pathogenic organism. People naturally ascribe thoughts, feelings, agency to pathogens. "The plague doesn't want that," "The plague is just trying to live out its little life," that sort of thing. 

It's even funnier sometimes with adaptation/evolution where people (especially laypeople) are constantly falling into the trap of thinking that change in the environment causes changes in the organism (it doesn't; it just selects for traits that are already present but weren't necessarily noticed prior to the event). 

People can personify _anything_. 

If you're looking for a handy visualization technique for disease-related storytelling, you can try playing Pandemic 2


----------



## SueC

Seconding second person story.


----------



## SueC

luckyscars said:


> Drunkenness is technically an incurable condition and that can be a hoot. Flatulence?



Flatulence, maybe. Drunkenness, never. I grew up with two alcoholics and to date I am unable to see humor in drunkenness. Even as a kid, watching tons of TV with characters falling all over with a laugh track yucking it up, I could find nothing to even smile about. But that's just me - might work for others.


----------



## Trollheart

Well if there's voting involved, it only seems fair that you're restricted to one entry, surely?


----------



## H.Brown

Trollheart said:


> Well if there's voting involved, it only seems fair that you're restricted to one entry, surely?



The more prompt ideas we get, the more interesting the vote.


----------



## luckyscars

Just spit balling. Personally I find personification to be one of the best taps to creativity. So many writers are afraid to use it in any meaningful sense, and its a shame because inanimate objects can be the most interesting of characters. I wrote an entire story from the point of view of a mirror. Scientists are _such _bores.


----------



## H.Brown

If your needing a judge this october count me in


----------



## velo

seigfried007 said:


> You've also specified POV, so that's three strikes against freedom.



That's the entire point of the LM, is it not?  We specify limitations in topic or form to make this a challenge and not just a free for all.  Anthropomorphising pathogens is certainly a thing in the real world but it sounds like good story fodder.  We have a lot of out of the box thinkers here, I don't think it would all be 'virus delights in killing host.'


----------



## BornForBurning

> Anthropomorphising pathogens is certainly a thing in the real world but it sounds like good story fodder.


On a somewhat related tangent does anyone remember that weird disney movie where the components of this girl's immune system are animated cartoon characters and they have to defend against a scheming bacteria? It was very speculative, like the sweatpores were a hangout for Jabba-style gangsters. It ends with the bacteria villain falling from the victims nose (I think) and landing in a bottle of disinfectant.


----------



## seigfried007

velo said:


> That's the entire point of the LM, is it not?  We specify limitations in topic or form to make this a challenge and not just a free for all.  Anthropomorphising pathogens is certainly a thing in the real world but it sounds like good story fodder.  We have a lot of out of the box thinkers here, I don't think it would all be 'virus delights in killing host.'



My point was more that the more stipulations on a prompt, the more likely a judge might get stuck with slight variations on the same story. Three stipulations isn't necessarily so many as to automatically render responses to a prompt inescapably similar. The other issue was that the stipulations themselves are debatable in terms of defining them. POV's easy enough, but "incurable" and "disease" mean different things to different writers.  

Part of my issue with said prompt is that I have a background in biology and epidemiology, so I define "incurable" and "disease" differently than probably everyone else here. Take the example of flatulence--it's neither a disease, nor is it incurable. It's a symptom. 

Most diseases are more curable that they're given credit for being, so such a prompt is highly likely to lead to a lot of writers being "wrong" versus the letter of the law, so to speak. Hence, I thought it was a better idea not to stipulate that the disease was incurable. I've got no problem with the prompt, I'm just not going to read or judge said entries because I hate coming off like some asshole know-it-all.   

Altering the prompt to, say, "Write from the perspective of an ailment to someone's health" would open entries to a lot more variation because of the more open definition of "ailment." This would allow for things like disabilities, syndromes, and symptoms. Everyone defines "disease" and "incurable" differently, and I don't want to see prompt entries denigrated for not adhering to one or another judge's definition of said terms. Seems like an argument waiting to happen, and I'd much rather the story itself be the issue--not whether or not everyone agreed upon definitions first, if that makes any sense.

Anthropomorphizing pathogens is fine and plenty of fun as story fodder.


----------



## velo

I am very science literate and can wax excessively pedantic on the topic, but in terms of the LM prompt I've never had an issue, nor have I seen a judge have one, if an interpretation of the monthly prompt is not quite what the judge thinks it should be.


----------



## H.Brown

BornForBurning said:


> On a somewhat related tangent does anyone remember that weird disney movie where the components of this girl's immune system are animated cartoon characters and they have to defend against a scheming bacteria? It was very speculative, like the sweatpores were a hangout for Jabba-style gangsters. It ends with the bacteria villain falling from the victims nose (I think) and landing in a bottle of disinfectant.




Osmosis Jones it was awesome love that film.


----------



## luckyscars

seigfried007 said:


> My point was more that the more stipulations on a prompt, the more likely a judge might get stuck with slight variations on the same story. Three stipulations isn't necessarily so many as to automatically render responses to a prompt inescapably similar. The other issue was that the stipulations themselves are debatable in terms of defining them. POV's easy enough, but "incurable" and "disease" mean different things to different writers.
> 
> Part of my issue with said prompt is that I have a background in biology and epidemiology, so I define "incurable" and "disease" differently than probably everyone else here. Take the example of flatulence--it's neither a disease, nor is it incurable. It's a symptom.
> 
> Most diseases are more curable that they're given credit for being, so such a prompt is highly likely to lead to a lot of writers being "wrong" versus the letter of the law, so to speak. Hence, I thought it was a better idea not to stipulate that the disease was incurable. I've got no problem with the prompt, I'm just not going to read or judge said entries because I hate coming off like some asshole know-it-all.
> 
> Altering the prompt to, say, "Write from the perspective of an ailment to someone's health" would open entries to a lot more variation because of the more open definition of "ailment." This would allow for things like disabilities, syndromes, and symptoms. Everyone defines "disease" and "incurable" differently, and I don't want to see prompt entries denigrated for not adhering to one or another judge's definition of said terms. Seems like an argument waiting to happen, and I'd much rather the story itself be the issue--not whether or not everyone agreed upon definitions first, if that makes any sense.
> 
> Anthropomorphizing pathogens is fine and plenty of fun as story fodder.



Then you have the option or either not voting for or participating in this prompt? It kind of sounds like you're arguing for no reason at all. 

No prompt entries are 'denigrated' for lack of literal adherence to prompt so long as they are thematically or metaphorically related and that's the way it should be. My winning entry for 'Warden I Want My Own Cell' was about a woman in a hospital with terminal cancer while most everybody else's was about actual prisoners in actual prisons. The only purpose of a prompt, at the end of the day, is to 'prompt'. Not as a tickling stick for nitpickers.



velo said:


> That's the entire point of the LM, is it not?  We specify limitations in topic or form to make this a challenge and not just a free for all.  Anthropomorphising pathogens is certainly a thing in the real world but it sounds like good story fodder.  We have a lot of out of the box thinkers here, I don't think it would all be 'virus delights in killing host.'



Do I smell a seconding, Velo? :love-struck:


----------



## velo

luckyscars said:


> Do I smell a seconding, Velo? :love-struck:



Nope, that's yesterday's Taco Bell.  ukel:

But yes, I will second.


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Write a story from the POV of a baby or small child (under 6 yrs)


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Ooh! Write a story from the POV of a prehistoric animal (dinosaur, trilobite, mammoth, etc.)


----------



## luckyscars

I always thought it would be a good exercise to write a story from the point of view of a blind person given that most stories are heavily biased toward the visual - many stories tend to focus on how things _look _instead of how they sound, feel, smell, etc. A story that forces the writer to engage with things on a non-visual basis would be challenging but could certainly force people away from their go-to mediums.


----------



## luckyscars

_Write A Romance In Which One Or Both Characters Are Non-Human

_Okay I'll stop now!


----------



## velo

ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord said:


> Write a story from the POV of a baby or small child (under 6 yrs)




Meh...it's been done.


----------



## velo

luckyscars said:


> _Write A Romance In Which One Or Both Characters Are Non-Human
> 
> _Okay I'll stop now!



I'll call mine _Doggy Style_


----------



## luckyscars

velo said:


> I'll call mine _Doggy Style_



As long as I get _Spank The Monkey_


----------



## bdcharles

H.Brown said:


> If your needing a judge this october count me in



Thanks Hannah. Don't hang about with those scores though  I'll judge too. Any others? We've also changed the scoring method a little which I need to document.

Poll to follow later today / tomorrow with all secondeds.


----------



## H.Brown

bdcharles said:


> Thanks Hannah. Don't hang about with those scores though  I'll judge too. Any others? We've also changed the scoring method a little which I need to document.
> 
> Poll to follow later today / tomorrow with all secondeds.



Ok I will have a look at the new scoring bd.


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

I second writing from the POV of a blind person.


----------



## sigmadog

I have no ideas to offer. But reading the thread so far, I suspect creating the art for the ad is going to be… challenging.


----------



## Trollheart

H.Brown said:


> The more prompt ideas we get, the more interesting the vote.


Yeah, somehow my post got moved. I was responding to the query as to whether or not one could enter more than one story. Sorry.

Seconded: Write a story in a fantasy version of a real historical period/event (fantasy WWII, fantasy Mongol Empire, etc)

Suggest: Write in the style of newspaper articles only (think Dracula, sort of)
Write in the style of one side of a telephone conversation
Write in the style of a letter being read by someone at the other end.

I wanted to second another suggestion but I forgot. I'll come back to it.

Oh yeah: Dialogue only.
Also suggest the reverse: no dialogue at all.


----------



## Trollheart

Here's another one: don't think this has been tried, ever. Suggest writing from the point of view of weather. "Blew in over some city as it was getting dark. Fun making those trees bend and seeing the little stick figures run to and fro, and those small boxes on wheels skittering along the big grey ribbon they always seem to want to be on. Got a bit weepy thinking about this zephyr I know; mutlicoloured umbrellas began to pop up. Stupid humans: a little rain ain't going to hurt you!" etc.


----------



## bdcharles

Poll going up onthe tomorrow, give the sunday nighters one last chance


----------



## J.J. Maxx

bdcharles said:


> Any others? We've also changed the scoring method a little which I need to document.



I'll judge. 

~ J. J.


----------



## luckyscars

I can do it.


----------



## luckyscars

sigmadog said:


> I have no ideas to offer. But reading the thread so far, I suspect creating the art for the ad is going to be… challenging.



Just use this:

View attachment 24539


----------



## Mish

Looks like "Urban Fairy-tale" is trending at the moment. If this prompt is chosen, do we adapt an existing Fairy-tale to an urban setting or create a brand new one? Or either?


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

@Mish Either, I'd assume.


----------



## bdcharles

Mish said:


> Looks like "Urban Fairy-tale" is trending at the moment. If this prompt is chosen, do we adapt an existing Fairy-tale to an urban setting or create a brand new one? Or either?





ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord said:


> @Mish Either, I'd assume.



Yep either is fine.


----------



## CmdrTrailblazer

Now is that this is gonna be a single prompt to use or an option outta five? (Seeing "Top 5" in a couple places got me a bit confused.)


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Kinda hoping it's just one?? It seems to take away from the "Maneuvers" side of the contest if we have five to pick from. Also then there's more point to voting on the prompt.


----------



## BornForBurning

> Kinda hoping it's just one?? It seems to take away from the "Maneuvers" side of the contest if we have five to pick from.


I second this. I know I said earlier that I was worried the stranger prompts might discourage submission but five is just way too flexible. I can say as a judge for last month that having so many different prompts made things far less interesting.


----------



## bdcharles

All right - taking it under consideration.


----------



## luckyscars

I didn't barely pay attention to the prompt usage judging the last comp. Lots of good pieces and I enjoyed reading them, but I wasn't going to bother trying to interpret the prompt relationship if it wasn't stated upfront. Not enough time for that. I second the idea of going back to a single prompt, or two at a push. I just don't think the prompt should be based on some nebulous phrase as it always was before. I like the 'Write a story in the style of...." type prompts because they force (most) out of their standard style regurgitations.


----------



## epimetheus

Maybe insist that people have to include any two of the five prompts - that's what i was going to attempt anyway.


----------



## velo

All the LM regulars at the end of the month...


----------



## bdcharles

Scores for Sep will be posted by midweek


----------



## J.T. Chris

Hello. How do I get involved in this?


----------



## velo

1- draw a pentacle
2- sacrifice a small animal within the circle
3- discuss terms with Mephistopheles

-or-

Wait for next month's challenge and submit an entry. Ask any questions here


----------



## bdcharles

J.T. Chris said:


> Hello. How do I get involved in this?



Hi, I am about to post up the October contest. Just take a look at the prompts and the guidelines, and write a story. Then, after two weeks, the entries are judged, new prompts are tabled, and we choose one towards the end of the month. Judges always welcome too.


----------



## bdcharles

Told you I'd get there. Didn't I tell you I'd get there? You, who would doubt me.

Sep Scores
Oct Comp
New Judging Guidelines

Happy writing


----------



## J.T. Chris

velo said:


> 1- draw a pentacle
> 2- sacrifice a small animal within the circle
> 3- discuss terms with Mephistopheles
> 
> -or-
> 
> Wait for next month's challenge and submit an entry. Ask any questions here



All of that sounds easier to me than writing. :-D


----------



## luckyscars

I'll judge again. Don't remember if I already volunteered or if the slate's full.


----------



## bdcharles

luckyscars said:


> I'll judge again. Don't remember if I already volunteered or if the slate's full.



You did volunteer, and are now locked in  Actually we were oversubscribed this month.


----------



## sigmadog

Question: I'm too lazy to read the whole thread, but why did we go with two prompts this month? 

Also, I'll try to get the artwork for the ad done this weekend.


----------



## SueC

sigmadog said:


> Question: I'm too lazy to read the whole thread, but why did we go with two prompts this month?



Last I looked, it was going to be the top 5. Did I miss something?


----------



## J.T. Chris

Okay, I bit the bullet and wrote something again. I'm a bit rusty, as it's been years, but I think that it's what I needed. Thank you for this!


----------



## sigmadog

SueC said:


> Last I looked, it was going to be the top 5. Did I miss something?



HOLY COW! I was gonna have to make an ad for FIVE prompts?!

Yer killin' me!


----------



## SueC

sigmadog said:


> HOLY COW! I was gonna have to make an ad for FIVE prompts?!
> 
> Yer killin' me!



I knew I had seen that somewhere - Bd on 9-23



> Choose your two favourites and we will take the top 5 as our final prompts



Sigma, rest easy. Somewhere along the line, it was changed. Must have missed that, but no worries for you!


----------



## bdcharles

sigmadog said:


> Question: I'm too lazy to read the whole thread, but why did we go with two prompts this month?
> 
> Also, I'll try to get the artwork for the ad done this weekend.



Thanks. 



SueC said:


> Last I looked, it was going to be the top 5. Did I miss something?



Two just felt right. People weren't so hot on five but liked the idea so I though I'd shrink it down but not so that it was too restrictive. Might go wth the traditional single prompt for next month, but I do quite like keeping it a little more varied each time.


----------



## SueC

bdcharles said:


> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Two just felt right. People weren't so hot on five but liked the idea so I though I'd shrink it down but not so that it was too restrictive. Might go wth the traditional single prompt for next month, but I do quite like keeping it a little more varied each time.



You are doing such a great job, bd. You were spot on- I think 5 would have been too much.


----------



## luckyscars

Okay - feel free to disagree with me on this but it's my opinion that I feel I should disclose as one of the judges...

Writing an urban fairytale is a MUCH easier as a brief than writing a story using only dialogue. It just is. I therefore totally expect the vast majority of entries to be the urban fairytale. Which is totally fine.

It does, however, mean that if any entry successfully writes a functional story written 100% in dialogue, I reserve the right to take that into account with my scoring. I am going to take into account how much more challenging that was.

Basically, this means so long as such a story only does okay in the other categories, it's probably going to be close to the top of the board simply for existing because of the enormous constraints of that form. On the other hand, an urban fairytale is going to have to be really incredibly strong, because it's already an established genre and has no format handicap. 

Like I say, fair warning...any issues?


----------



## seigfried007

luckyscars said:


> Okay - feel free to disagree with me on this but it's my opinion that I feel I should disclose as one of the judges...
> 
> Writing an urban fairytale is a MUCH easier as a brief than writing a story using only dialogue. It just is. I therefore totally expect the vast majority of entries to be the urban fairytale. Which is totally fine.
> 
> It does, however, mean that if any entry successfully writes a functional story written 100% in dialogue, I reserve the right to take that into account with my scoring. I am going to take into account how much more challenging that was.
> 
> Basically, this means so long as such a story only does okay in the other categories, it's probably going to be close to the top of the board simply for existing because of the enormous constraints of that form. On the other hand, an urban fairytale is going to have to be really incredibly strong, because it's already an established genre and has no format handicap.
> 
> Like I say, fair warning...any issues?



You know what might be even better? Instead of choosing one prompt out of two, to write the urban fairytale using only dialogue  

I've written dialogue-only before for other prompts. It's always a fun challenge, I think.  

Even _Pinocchio_ has several small sections which are nothing but dialogue (and it's a fairytale, though it's grown from the original LM prompt into 180K now, and it's not strictly urban).


----------



## luckyscars

seigfried007 said:


> You know what might be even better? Instead of choosing one prompt out of two, to write the urban fairytale using only dialogue
> 
> I've written dialogue-only before for other prompts. It's always a fun challenge, I think.
> 
> Even _Pinocchio_ has several small sections which are nothing but dialogue (and it's a fairytale, though it's grown from the original LM prompt into 180K now, and it's not strictly urban).



An urban fairytale written in just dialogue that actually works...sounds like it'd coast to first. 

Yeah I find writing a scene in just dialogue is relatively comfortable, because in that case the story would already be somewhat defined, but a story with a beginning-middle-end and no scene-setting or description...that's hard. Not impossible but very challenging. Which of course was why I suggested it 

I guess the beauty of this challenge is it offers something for different skill levels to test themselves with. An urban fairytale is moderately challenging because it would involve creating a fairytale feeling in an atypical setting, good for those who have only written within their comfort zones. The black diamond run here is definitely the dialogue option though.


----------



## BornForBurning

I'd actually argue that writing a story in all dialog is easier than writing in the traditional format. Theoretically I see how it could be more difficult due to inexperience but reducing the amount of possible variables in any project is always going to make it easier. Like writing a song that employs only lead requires far less effort than one that has vocals, percussion, bass, etc.


----------



## luckyscars

BornForBurning said:


> I'd actually argue that writing a story in all dialog is easier than writing in the traditional format. Theoretically I see how it could be more difficult due to inexperience but reducing the amount of possible variables in any project is always going to make it easier. Like writing a song that employs only lead requires far less effort than one that has vocals, percussion, bass, etc.



Hmmm, I don't know if I agree with that... I get the point about simplicity, but the 'Write An Urban Fairytale' doesn't dictate complexity - it's a genre 'prompt' not a stylistic one. Besides which I don't know that writing a song that involves one instrument is necessarily easier. It depends on what kind of song you're trying to write, doesn't it? 

Writing a folk song can be done on an acoustic guitar but you'd struggle to write a symphonic movement with one instrument. On the other hand, a composer who is gifted with 1,000 different instruments and 1,000 virtuoso musicians to play them has essentially limitless capabilities for making whatever kind of song in whatever style they want. 

Similarly, writing under the prompt of urban fantasy gives you unlimited scope to write whatever you want however you want to play it (within 650 words) but dialogue-only is a single-instrument gig.


----------



## Ma'am

Edited for clarity:

As one who has written both a couple of short-short fairy tales and a couple of short-short all-dialogue stories, I agree that all-dialogue is much harder, for me at least. I worked and worked on both the ones I recall writing and neither one was very good anyway.

On the other hand, with the fairy tales, since I started with short, online cartoonish children's versions, then tossed them around, they were easier than the usual story writing. (I'm not sure if they'd be considered "urban," but I don't think it would be hard to incorporate that). That's not the only way to write an urban fairy tale, but if you do it that way, it gives you a boost, like fan fiction.

If anyone wants inspiration for all-dialogue stories, here are a couple by Dorothy Parker:

New York to Detroit
http://losarciniegas.blogspot.com/2016/07/dorothy-parker-new-york-to-detroit.html


Here We Are
https://www.lmtsd.org/cms/lib/PA01000427/Centricity/Domain/174/HereWeAre-DorothyParker.pdf


----------



## luckyscars

I guess I'm just looking at these two vastly incomparable prompts and seeing one that almost anybody with a little bit of competency could fulfill (all you would have to do is take an existing fairytale and transpose it into an 'urban' setting - essentially the plots come ready made) and one that would undoubtedly require a lot of hard work to pull off effectively. It's not about being biased in favor of one prompt or anything, it's just I know from experience that one is waaay more difficult and therefore would want to credit that hard work in the event it is accomplished. But rest assured there's no shortcut here - crap is crap and gold is gold, as always.


----------



## Ma'am

Oops, sorry Luckyscars. I was editing my post while you wrote your response... I edited it because by the time I got done writing it, I realized I actually agreed with you after all lol.


----------



## BornForBurning

Something just occurred to me, for the sake of fairness why not have all contestants submit anonymously? I know that if I read a piece by bd or epimetheus, for example, I go into it with certain expectations that color my perception.


----------



## Mish

Ma'am said:


> If anyone wants inspiration for all-dialogue stories, here are a couple by Dorothy Parker:
> 
> New York to Detroit
> http://losarciniegas.blogspot.com/2016/07/dorothy-parker-new-york-to-detroit.html
> 
> 
> Here We Are
> https://www.lmtsd.org/cms/lib/PA01000427/Centricity/Domain/174/HereWeAre-DorothyParker.pdf



Thank you for the examples Ma'am!

I've noticed they had; "She said / He said", "said Telephone operator", "said the young man", "said the girl". That's kind of descriptive.

Is that allowed in this challenge if we choose to go with the dialogue only option? I was under impression it is meant to be only " dialogue dialogue"?


----------



## Aquilo

Mish said:


> Thank you for the examples Ma'am!
> 
> I've noticed they had; "She said / He said", "said Telephone operator", "said the young man", "said the girl". That's kind of descriptive.
> 
> Is that allowed in this challenge if we choose to go with the dialogue only option? I was under impression it is meant to be only " dialogue dialogue"?



I think it can be hard to get around not using them in dialogue-only, but it can be done. And it's not the huge a word count: 650, if you want to go the no-speech tag way. Just depends on what the event organisors decide...


----------



## Ma'am

Mish said:


> Thank you for the examples Ma'am!
> 
> I've noticed they had; "She said / He said", "said Telephone operator", "said the young man", "said the girl". That's kind of descriptive.
> 
> Is that allowed in this challenge if we choose to go with the dialogue only option? I was under impression it is meant to be only " dialogue dialogue"?



If you look at the bottom of this month's contest announcement, it says dialogue tags are allowed.


----------



## Mish

Ma'am said:


> If you look at the bottom of this month's contest announcement, it says dialogue tags are allowed.



It does too! Sorry, just noticed. How far can we take the dialogue tags? E.g. “he said entering the room” still acceptable?


----------



## bdcharles

Mish said:


> It does too! Sorry, just noticed. How far can we take the dialogue tags? E.g. “he said entering the room” still acceptable?



I’m going to say just the tag, eg said. The magic must be in the dialogue!


----------



## velo

As I was finishing my submission for last month my artist wife read it.  Whilst I finished editing she created a piece to accompany it.  I've added it to the story post.  

https://www.writingforums.com/threa...ose-a-prompt?p=2242737&viewfull=1#post2242737


----------



## Trollheart

luckyscars said:


> Okay - feel free to disagree with me on this but it's my opinion that I feel I should disclose as one of the judges...
> 
> Writing an urban fairytale is a MUCH easier as a brief than writing a story using only dialogue. It just is. I therefore totally expect the vast majority of entries to be the urban fairytale. Which is totally fine.
> 
> It does, however, mean that if any entry successfully writes a functional story written 100% in dialogue, I reserve the right to take that into account with my scoring. I am going to take into account how much more challenging that was.
> 
> Basically, this means so long as such a story only does okay in the other categories, it's probably going to be close to the top of the board simply for existing because of the enormous constraints of that form. On the other hand, an urban fairytale is going to have to be really incredibly strong, because it's already an established genre and has no format handicap.
> 
> Like I say, fair warning...any issues?


I'd already decided to do a dialogue only one. I had suggested writing one side of a telephone conversation (which was not seconded) but is something similar, so hopefully this one will be better than my last.


BornForBurning said:


> Something just occurred to me, for the sake of fairness why not have all contestants submit anonymously? I know that if I read a piece by bd or epimetheus, for example, I go into it with certain expectations that color my perception.


Ah, no. I don't want to be anonymous. Don't make me be anonymous. I'll be good....


----------



## luckyscars

BornForBurning said:


> Something just occurred to me, for the sake of fairness why not have all contestants submit anonymously? I know that if I read a piece by bd or epimetheus, for example, I go into it with certain expectations that color my perception.



In the 'real world' previous work and pre-defined perceptions/expectations would be taken into account by a reader when reading your work (e.g. I tend to read Stephen King with certain expectations in mind that I wouldn't have with, say, JK Rowling) on the other hand you always have the option of using a pen name - the equivalent of writing anonymously - if you feel the name recognition wouldn't be beneficial for whatever reason. I take your point, though.


----------



## epimetheus

BornForBurning said:


> Something just occurred to me, for the sake of fairness why not have all contestants submit anonymously? I know that if I read a piece by bd or epimetheus, for example, I go into it with certain expectations that color my perception.



I'll take that as a compliment.

But speaking of expectations, i have a question regarding managing reader expectations.

A couple of my stories, though they do OK, have comments suggesting credulity is being stretched. The funny thing is when i've received those comments it was for stories based on real events; my recent LM entry for instance where a triage doctor punched an A&E nurse. Even though I go for realism in such stories, i'm obviously failing to overcome readers expectations and i'm wondering whether it's feasible in flash fiction or if i'm missing a few tricks.


----------



## SueC

epimetheus said:


> I'll take that as a compliment.
> 
> But speaking of expectations, i have a question regarding managing reader expectations.
> 
> A couple of my stories, though they do OK, have comments suggesting credulity is being stretched. The funny thing is when i've received those comments it was for stories based on real events; my recent LM entry for instance where a triage doctor punched an A&E nurse. Even though I go for realism in such stories, i'm obviously failing to overcome readers expectations and i'm wondering whether it's feasible in flash fiction or if i'm missing a few tricks.



That is such a good point, epi. To tell the truth, when I read your work, the idea of a doc punching a nurse did not strike me as that far fetched (I've worked in a hospital setting before). But on looking at your question, I wonder if you could have used some more description, or validation.



> “Only so long as we keep accepting this rubbish. This is clearly a GP issue so deal with it. That’s the point of having you.”
> 
> Dr Lindberg punched the nurse. He could scarcely believe he had done it. The nurse stumbled back. Immediately he regretted it, even without the entire waiting room, now in silent anticipation, watching him.



For example, in the above, rather than launching right into the punch, maybe you could have said something like:

"That was it. His head exploded and he punched the nurse before he could stop himself." In fact, when I wrote this here, I inadvertently wrote it in first person -_my head exploded and I punched the nurse. 

_As I re-read your story, I thought it might actually work better in first person. That way all the thought processes . . .


> He could scarcely believe he had done it. The nurse stumbled back. Immediately he regretted it, even without the entire waiting room, now in silent anticipation, watching him.



. . . might seem more genuine, instead of hearsay, or whatever you can call the third-person subjective. In the above, for example, what behavior is he exhibiting that tells us he immediately regrets punching her? That the tricky part of writing in third person, which can be highly subjective, because you have to show how the emotions you describe effect the action. Did he lower his hands and look at her in dismay? Did he reach to help her up and she slapped his hand away?

Hope this helps . . . Great question to ask.


----------



## bdcharles

BornForBurning said:


> Something just occurred to me, for the sake of fairness why not have all contestants submit anonymously? I know that if I read a piece by bd or epimetheus, for example, I go into it with certain expectations that color my perception.





epimetheus said:


> I'll take that as a compliment.



As will I, squire 

BfB, that's exactly the joy of anonymity. Whenever I feel like people may judge based on me rather than the story, I do it anonymously. But I prefer not to have everyone submit everything anonymously every time simply because of the time it takes to manage it. I guess people are at liberty to do so, they just haven't ... yet


----------



## luckyscars

epimetheus said:


> I'll take that as a compliment.
> 
> But speaking of expectations, i have a question regarding managing reader expectations.
> 
> A couple of my stories, though they do OK, have comments suggesting credulity is being stretched. The funny thing is when i've received those comments it was for stories based on real events; my recent LM entry for instance where a triage doctor punched an A&E nurse. Even though I go for realism in such stories, i'm obviously failing to overcome readers expectations and i'm wondering whether it's feasible in flash fiction or if i'm missing a few tricks.



The issue with that story wasn't that the situation itself was unrealistic. Of course workplace violence happens and undoubtedly in a hospital as often as anywhere else. The issue in that story was pacing and lead-in:



> “What do you mean you can’t take the patient? You’re an A&E department, you take everything.” He wasn’t used to getting resistance from nurses, but was starting to learn that those from A&E were a different breed.
> 
> “Only so long as we keep accepting this rubbish. This is clearly a GP issue so deal with it. That’s the point of having you.”
> 
> Dr Lindberg punched the nurse. He could scarcely believe he had done it. The nurse stumbled back. Immediately he regretted it, even without the entire waiting room, now in silent anticipation, watching him.
> 
> “I’m so sorry… no don’t…” the nurse struck him back, thankfully the punch of someone not used to using fists. “OK, OK. Look we’re even now. I’m sorry I hit you. I just snapped.”
> 
> The nurse seemed to relax, at least a little. “What the hell, man? What’s your problem?”
> 
> “I’m just having a bad year.”




^ The abruptness of going from what seems on the surface like a minor quibble (there's one paragraph of lead-in about how the doctor doesn't want to be triaging patients) to a violent escalation, then into retrospective huddling, is what feels unrealistic to me. There was no sense that it might happen, no precipitating event. In the words of Anchorman "That escalated quickly".

In the space of something like 300 words we go from him whining, him assaulting, him being assaulted in turn, to 'I'm just having a bad year', which has a deadpan humorous element - I mean, a doctor has just assaulted a nurse and that's his response? This is a lot of heavy plot to pack into such a small space. You didn't really focus much on the actual physical confrontation - where did he hit him? how did it feel to hit him? What was the immediate physical reaction - did his eyes bulge in surprise? Did blood spurt from a broken nose? - more it's genesis and it's aftermath, and I found that...odd.

Which is to say the effect was not bad, but it felt more like something from a slapstick sketch than anything hard hitting. Ultimately there has to be some sense of real tension created in order to trigger the 'explosion'. No doubt in a longer word count you would have knocked that out of the park, this isn't a criticism of you as a writer, but in 650 words it is difficult. You would have had to rely solely on the subtext to create that tension, perhaps try and include _less _detail and make the motivations more ambiguous. 

Was it really necessary to expend word count on trying to explain/justify the doctor's bitterness upfront? It's not like we don't get a sense of it through dialogue. As it is, that opening paragraph is pure 'tell' when it could be 'shown' through the following exchanges. Why not just focus on him snapping and use the words to make that specific event seem as authentic as possible? Why not focus more on the lead-in and have "I'm just having a bad year" be the end of the story as opposed to it's halfway?

I don't know. Just in this particular case I did not feel that tension. At least not in a way that was credible.


----------



## J.J. Maxx

luckyscars said:


> Okay - feel free to disagree with me on this but it's my opinion that I feel I should disclose as one of the judges...
> 
> Writing an urban fairytale is a MUCH easier as a brief than writing a story using only dialogue.



I would much rather write a dialogue only story than an urban fairy tale, but I'm weird like that. In fact, I'm a bit chuffed that I chose this month to judge! Still, I don't think it's cut and dry. Some people are more comfortable with dialogue and there are many dialogue-only short stories out there, some of them have won awards. But still, all stories will need to have the same criteria for a good short story, including conflict, resolution, feeling and expressive writing. I look forward to reading and judging the entries this month.

Cheers.

J. J.


----------



## bdcharles

If anyone’s looking for Urban Fairytale inspiration, give _Carnival Row_ on Amazon Prime a binge...


----------



## Mish

bdcharles said:


> If anyone’s looking for Urban Fairytale inspiration, give _Carnival Row_ on Amazon Prime a binge...



Hi bdcharles,

Please check your private message inbox.


----------



## seigfried007

Here's a weird question... kinda wondering what counts as urban or a fairytale. 

I just wrote a scene in which a strip club has been melded with Dante's Inferno. Not sure if Dante would count--plenty of people don't believe a word of it, whole thing's allegorical anyway, quite old and famous. Also not sure if I'd be able to edit it down and make a fancy scene/story out of it in 650, but I could try.

What's hilarious to me is that it's a sequel of sorts to the first "retell a fairytale" LM prompt I did (the one that spawned Pinocchio as a half-ass exotic dancer in the first place). 

Got a well-read character having a lot of crazy, allegorical nightmares, so references to other books and fairytales have been cropping up a lot lately in my WIP. Might be able to twist something from Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and/or Sleeping Beauty around. Have to see what I can do with what I've got because I don't have time or mental power to spare on some all-new retelling of some other fairytale at the moment.


----------



## Ma'am

I think it's a fairy tale if it starts with "Once upon a time." I have no idea what I'm talking about, though.


----------



## luckyscars

seigfried007 said:


> Here's a weird question... kinda wondering what counts as urban or a fairytale.
> 
> I just wrote a scene in which a strip club has been melded with Dante's Inferno. Not sure if Dante would count--plenty of people don't believe a word of it, whole thing's allegorical anyway, quite old and famous. Also not sure if I'd be able to edit it down and make a fancy scene/story out of it in 650, but I could try.
> 
> What's hilarious to me is that it's a sequel of sorts to the first "retell a fairytale" LM prompt I did (the one that spawned Pinocchio as a half-ass exotic dancer in the first place).
> 
> Got a well-read character having a lot of crazy, allegorical nightmares, so references to other books and fairytales have been cropping up a lot lately in my WIP. Might be able to twist something from Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and/or Sleeping Beauty around. Have to see what I can do with what I've got because I don't have time or mental power to spare on some all-new retelling of some other fairytale at the moment.



A fairytale is essentially just folklore in the form of a short story, usually with supernatural elements. I think Dante is fine. It may not be a fairytale in its original form but your interpretation of it most certainly would be. It's definitely 'supernatural'


----------



## Fatclub

*From the OED

1. A tale about fairies; a tale set in fairyland; esp. any of various short tales having folkloric elements and featuring fantastic or magical events or characters. Also as a mass noun: such stories collectively or as a genre. Cf. fairy story n. 1.Classed as a type of folk tale, many fairy tales exist in various versions deriving from long traditions of oral storytelling. Often stylized in form and having a structure following certain general conventions, they are sometimes associated with idealized happy endings or viewed as stories for children.

**2. Something resembling a fairy tale in being unreal or incredible, or in having an idealized happy ending. Also: a fabricated story; a lie. Cf. fairy story n. 2.*

*B.* _adj._ (chiefly _attributive_).
*Thesaurus »*

*Having the qualities associated with fairy tales; magical, incredible; idealized. Cf. fairy story adj.*

*C1. General attributive and objective, as fairy-tale hero, fairy-tale heroine, fairy-tale writer, etc.*

*C2.*

*fairy-tale ending  n. a perfect, happy, often simplistic ending or resolution to a story, resembling those often found in fairy tales; also in extended use.Frequently with reference to the convention of ending fairy tales with formulaic phrases affirming the continued happiness of the protagonists; cf. happily ever after at happily adv. Phrases.*


*ˈfairy-tale-ish adj. (somewhat) characteristic of or resembling a fairy tale; = sense B.*

*ˈfairy-tale-like adj.*


----------



## seigfried007

Thought I almost had a fairy tale in nothing but dialogue, but I realized it wasn't dialogue. Had two speakers each talking to different/the same person, but this person/people never responded verbally and/or his/their responses were not included in the text, so I can't call it dialogue. It's the closest to a story (as opposed to a scene), and the setting can be edited out without detracting too much; sticky point is if it qualifies as "dialogue only." 

And it was followed up by a scene I'm pretty proud of conflating Sloth/Sullenness (lower level of the fifth circle, Wrath) with the blue caterpillar from _Alice's Adventures in Wonderland._ Problem with this one is that while it's clear in the narrative that David's backstage at a strip club, that isn't clear in the chapter, so it doesn't come off as urban. Paraphernalia is certainly associated with urban/modern usage and environments, but a giant mushroom just ain't very urban. Allegories, metaphors and nightmares are weird like that. Much like the original scene in the strip club, it's not really a story on its own so much as a scene the MC is trying to get through.

Not sure how well I'd be able to turn any of them into a 650 story in their own right--even if they did qualify as dialogue, urban or a fairy tales. Suppose I could enter one and let the judges toss it out/grade it harshly for not applying, but I'd rather not give them more work to do and waste their time. Even if I don't enter one, I at least wanted everyone here to know I'm thinking about you and the contest.


----------



## Mish

seigfried007 said:


> Not sure how well I'd be able to turn any of them into a 650 story in their own right--even if they did qualify as dialogue, urban or a fairy tales. Suppose I could enter one and let the judges toss it out/grade it harshly for not applying, but I'd rather not give them more work to do and waste their time. Even if I don't enter one, I at least wanted everyone here to know I'm thinking about you and the contest.



I say go for it and enter your entry in. It's all experience in the end. What's the worst that can happen? Judges will give you some good pointers.


----------



## seigfried007

Mish said:


> I say go for it and enter your entry in. It's all experience in the end. What's the worst that can happen? Judges will give you some good pointers.



Spent all day working on a dialogue-only urban fairy tale and getting it to 650 (excluding its lengthy title). Feel bad that I didn't use the more obviously Inferno-related ones and went with the most "complete story" of my options (even though I'm super proud of those Inferno scenes and really tried to shoehorn them into proper urban fairy tales).


----------



## bdcharles

October Literary Maneuvers closes tonight, so do the do and get your stories submitted


----------



## bdcharles

Okelly-dokelly, the October Literary Maneuvers is now closed to new entries. We judges will collate our scores but in the meantime, let’s start thinking about new prompts. We’ve had lots of different ones over the last few months - write to a genre, write to a style, use any of the seconded choices, etc. - so just cast your mind far and wide and suggest anything you like, a standard prompt, a picture, a song, a quote, a subject, genre prompts, technique/style prompts, anything. Top-voted one will be the one. Go!


----------



## Ibb

Prompt Suggestions:

Punctual Puns
Infinite Inertia
Whose Hand Is This? 
Honey, I Shrunk the...
Hidden Rulers


----------



## velo

Second
Hidden Rulers
Infinite Inertia

Suggest
Return to the Moon
Adrift


----------



## BornForBurning

Second: 
Return to the Moon

Suggest: 
Drawing Down the Moon
Swallow the Soul
Deathorgasm


----------



## BadHouses

Second:
- Whose Hand is This?

Suggest:
- Write a Greek comedy
- Write about an inanimate object from the first person
- "One day in El Paso"
- "I don't know how to drive"
- "The end of a dynasty"


----------



## Ibb

Second:
-Write about an inanimate object from the first person.

I have a weakness for these stories, bring'em on!


----------



## seigfried007

Ibb said:


> Second:
> -Write about an inanimate object from the first person.
> 
> I have a weakness for these stories, bring'em on!



I've been writing in first-person plural a lot lately--but it's not even the Queen's English. My MC's got... a roommate in his head. Sometimes they're a "he and I" and sometimes they're a "we." 

Second-person can be a neat exercise.

I kinda like the idea of a prompt more than a style or perspective. We've had a lot of those lately, it seems (maybe it's just me though).


----------



## Ibb

seigfried007 said:


> I've been writing in first-person plural a lot lately--but it's not even the Queen's English. My MC's got... a roommate in his head. Sometimes they're a "he and I" and sometimes they're a "we."



All right, Eddie Brock, just make sure your roommate doesn't eat my face off. :tongue:




seigfried007 said:


> I kinda like the idea of a prompt more than a style or perspective. We've had a lot of those lately, it seems (maybe it's just me though).



Oh, I agree entirely; I liked that this LM offered an alternative. I completely avoided the 'Dialogue Only' and went ahead bending the 'Urban Fairytale' to my liking. 

How's about... Prompt suggestion....?

Inanimate Personality.


----------



## Aquilo

Second
Swallow the Soul
Deathorgasm (just because, lol)

Suggest

 - 'Quote it, Shakespeare' Prompt: God hath given you one face, yet you make yourselves another (or) Hell is empty and all the devils are here.

 - The Steinbeck method. (I'm blaming Lucky for this one!) At the reader's request. Steinbeck says to think of only pleasing one reader. So with this, you 'write a story to order': Three readers, three Reader Request letters, each with a different picture, and you have to choose one and write the story that the reader is asking for in the letter, where you pay attention their likes and dislikes. 

Example:




Reader's Request 1:
Dear author, it was meant to be just a fun night out with the lads, but something just out of shot has made him turn his head, cause that frown, and now life won't be the same. Maybe that's a good thing, maybe it isn't... his look just won't tell me, which is him in general: secretive. I can't decide if he's angry/scared something happened, or if he's angry/scared that something didn't happen the way he planned it. But I do want to know what's causing that frown, one he wouldn't usually let slip in public. Please... can you tell me his story: (No paranormal elements, please. I usually love crime, horror, or steampunk. No romance (although I'm always open to a little bromance!) Image credit here.).

(disclaimer: this is taken from a challenge run yearly on Goodreads in my genre, where readers get a chance to write a dear author letter to an author and authors can come in and choose a letter. Those in charge of the event also then publish the stories for free. It's a great way to get to meet readers and see what they love about the genre.  )


----------



## BadHouses

Oh, I dunno if I can throw another one, but you could either:

Pick one member's username and everybody uses that as the prompt or,
Each submitter can pick any member's username as their prompt.

Might be fun.


----------



## Phil Istine

BadHouses said:


> Oh, I dunno if I can throw another one, but you could either:
> 
> Pick one member's username and everybody uses that as the prompt or,
> Each submitter can pick any member's username as their prompt.
> 
> Might be fun.



I strongly recommend not to do this. No doubt it could and would produce a lot of humour, but everyone's sense of humour is different.  I once tried something like this and it wasn't well received.  Never again.


----------



## seigfried007

Phil Istine said:


> I strongly recommend not to do this; no doubt it could and would produce a lot of humour, but everyone's sense of humour is different.  I once tried something like this and it wasn't well received.  Never again.


Ditto. 

Very bad idea in practice, even if it's funny in theory.


----------



## luckyscars

Oh I think it sounds fine. While we're at it, how about everybody uploads a photo of themselves and we vote on whose face would make the best prompt for serial killer story.


----------



## BadHouses

I would like to clarify I didn't mean write _about _the user.

E.g., BadHouses - Maybe I just write about some haunted house.  Or a brothel.

That said, you guys make some good points - It could go... bad.

 * * *

Second:  Everybody uploads a photo of themselves and we vote on whose face would make the best prompt for serial killer story. :icon_cheesygrin:


----------



## Phil Istine

BadHouses said:


> Second:  Everybody uploads a photo of themselves and we vote on whose face would make the best *dartboard*


----------



## velo

Phil Istine said:


> I strongly recommend not to do this. No doubt it could and would produce a lot of humour, but everyone's sense of humour is different.  I once tried something like this and it wasn't well received.  Never again.



Agreed.  Thanks, Phil.


----------



## velo

luckyscars said:


> Oh I think it sounds fine. While we're at it, how about everybody uploads a photo of themselves and we vote on whose face would make the best prompt for serial killer story.



Ok, funny, but the same potential as the username thing based on the story outcomes.  Feels like it's inviting _ad hominem_ butthurt.


----------



## Ibb

velo said:


> Inviting _A__d Hominem_ Butthurt.



Holy moly, _second.

_Keep it up, gang, I like where this next LM is going.


----------



## seigfried007

Ibb said:


> Holy moly, _seccond.
> 
> _Keep it up, gang, I like where this next LM is going.



I suppose "Inviting ad hominem butthurt" could be a valid prompt. 

Surprised nobody's brought up Halloween as a possible theme to work with.


----------



## velo




----------



## Ibb

seigfried007 said:


> I suppose "Inviting ad hominem butthurt" could be a valid prompt.
> 
> Surprised nobody's brought up Halloween as a possible theme to work with.



Just say the word!



seigfried007 said:


> Halloween



Second! And on that note, some Halloween-themed prompt suggestions:

Pumpkin Possibilities 
The Scarecrow
Ravens of a Feather
Ghosts of a Feather
Edgar Allen Ouuuooooooohh
Freaky Friday the 13th
She Wore _What?
You Can't Wear That! 
_Who's Afraid of Stephen King?


----------



## Ma'am

Or maybe a Thanksgiving story because the new prompt won't be up until after Halloween.


----------



## luckyscars

Ma'am said:


> Or maybe a Thanksgiving story because the new prompt won't be up until after Halloween.



Problem is nobody celebrates Thanksgiving outside of North America.

Also, speaking as an American, Thanksgiving is by far the worst Holiday ever created. Bunch of idiots eating dinner.


----------



## Ma'am

Yes, come to think of it, that is true. Personally, I wouldn't want to write a Halloween story after Halloween, though. Maybe "after Halloween" would be a better prompt.


----------



## luckyscars

"Underneath the dead leaves"


----------



## seigfried007

luckyscars said:


> Problem is nobody celebrates Thanksgiving outside of North America.
> 
> Also, speaking as an American, Thanksgiving is by far the worst Holiday ever created. Bunch of idiots eating dinner.



Nah. The idiots thing is around for all holidays so long as you celebrate with idiots. But _the food_. The food can be pretty darn amazing. Also, lots of people get two days off for it, which can lead to _four-day weekends_ for this awesome holiday. 

Weirdly enough, Thanksgiving does feature prominently in my WIP (MC got horribly sick after the meal and had to be hospitalized awhile).


----------



## Phil Istine

Suggest: Halloween dream
Suggest: October farce
Suggest: An aye for an eye

Second:  The Scarecrow


----------



## Aquilo

Ma'am said:


> the new prompt won't be up until after Halloween.



Yeah, does kind of kill the writing vibe.

But... you get Thanksgiving, we get Bonfire Night (Remember, remember the 5th of November, gunpowder, treason, and plot." Maybe a Culture Share prompt?


----------



## Mish

Aquilo said:


> View attachment 24719
> 
> Reader's Request 1:
> Dear author, it was meant to be just a fun night out with the lads, but something just out of shot has made him turn his head, cause that frown, and now life won't be the same. Maybe that's a good thing, maybe it isn't... his look just won't tell me, which is him in general: secretive. I can't decide if he's angry/scared something happened, or if he's angry/scared that something didn't happen the way he planned it. But I do want to know what's causing that frown, one he wouldn't usually let slip in public. Please... can you tell me his story: (No paranormal elements, please. I usually love crime, horror, or steampunk. No romance (although I'm always open to a little bromance!) Image credit here.).



This might make an interesting member participation chain story...

Dear reader,

Thank you for you inquiry. One of our staff has confirmed the cause of said unusual look. It just so happened that as they were walking down the street to the party, someone yelled "Nice necklace Legolas!". You won't believe what happened next....


----------



## luckyscars

Phil Istine said:


> Suggest: Halloween dream
> Suggest: October farce
> Suggest: An aye for an eye
> 
> Second:  The Scarecrow



Second Halloween Dream.


----------



## Ibb

In the meantime, am I allowed to shamelessly plug? I just discovered a new, LM-Lite competition on the forum and think it's such a gnarly idea that I want to play my part promoting it to the writingforum masses. Ahem:

_The Lean and Mean competition, 'Write a Story Based on a Song,' is now closed! _Read the awesome entries here --> https://www.writingforums.com/threa...ge-10-14-19-quot-A-Story-Based-on-a-Song-quot

And once you've made your decision, lend your vote over hither! --> https://www.writingforums.com/threa...te-10-14-19-quot-A-Story-Based-on-a-Song-quot

I've got about two that I'm debating back and forth in my noggin. I will cast my vote later tonight. Trump who? Clinton what? Forget all that. These are the kind of votes that really matter, people!

VOTE TODAY.


----------



## luckyscars

Just got my scores in. 

Twenty (Zimbabwean) dollars says The Staithes Pike by 'Anonymous' is bdcharles. Just putting that out there


----------



## seigfried007

luckyscars said:


> An urban fairytale written in just dialogue that actually works...sounds like it'd coast to first.
> 
> Yeah I find writing a scene in just dialogue is relatively comfortable, because in that case the story would already be somewhat defined, but a story with a beginning-middle-end and no scene-setting or description...that's hard. Not impossible but very challenging. Which of course was why I suggested it
> 
> I guess the beauty of this challenge is it offers something for different skill levels to test themselves with. An urban fairytale is moderately challenging because it would involve creating a fairytale feeling in an atypical setting, good for those who have only written within their comfort zones. The black diamond run here is definitely the dialogue option though.



Just so you know, Lucky; this ^^^ was why I went with the dialogue option instead of either of the two Inferno-related scenes (even though they had some sparkling descriptions and haunting imagery). Tried to spiffy it up into a vaguely coherent story with a beginning, middle and end; keep it nothing but dialogue and make it an urban fairy tale for ya. T'was a challenge (but one I enjoyed)! Hopefully, it worked well enough for you, but I'll find out at the end of the month  

Still think it's hilarious that ten years after the original fairy tale prompt that started the WIP, I got to use Pinocchio as a stripper again in another fairy tale LM. Sadly, the original entry "Pieces of Ass" has been lost from the site, and I don't have a copy of it.


----------



## bdcharles

luckyscars said:


> Just got my scores in.
> 
> Twenty (Zimbabwean) dollars says The Staithes Pike by 'Anonymous' is bdcharles. Just putting that out there



Hmm. What's the exchange rate on those ZBD's?


----------



## velo

luckyscars said:


> Just got my scores in.
> 
> Twenty (Zimbabwean) dollars says The Staithes Pike by 'Anonymous' is bdcharles. Just putting that out there



I asked the same thing via PM.


----------



## Mish

bdcharles said:


> Hmm. What's the exchange rate on those ZBD's?



It's actually not too bad apparently:

1 USD = 361.900 ZWL

Looks like someone has not followed the developments on the exchange markets, the shift from ZWD to RTGS etc. Things are not what they used to be.

Iranian Rial would have probably been a better choice.

1 USD = 42,190.50 IRR


----------



## bdcharles

I'll gather up the secondeds and put a poll up tomorrow. Last chance to give that excessively niche, unwriteable category the airing it deserves.

Suggest:
- Badger Healing
- Write using your elbows


----------



## bdcharles

The voting ... it is up


----------



## J.J. Maxx

I should have my scores in by tonight or tomorrow morning all. Thanks.

~ J. J.


----------



## seigfried007

Realized that the chapter headings for my WIP would make some awesome writing prompts. Got a 173 of them so far, so I'm sure *something* in the number could tickle some fancies. I'd be deeply honored if any were picked, but even more so, I'd be stoked to see what everyone else would come up with. I'd have to write something new for pretty much all of them, too, so that'd be neat. Will have to pick some favorites and offer them up for December.

We've already used "Dead and Dreaming," and two have a choice word in them, but otherwise, I think they're all available. Granted, some are snazzier than others and/or more likely to net us some amazing entries. 

For instance, ones like these:

"Just as Real as Russia"
"The Beastliest Place on Earth"
"Why We're Afraid of the Dark"
"The Sweetest Word in All of English"

could net us a wide variety of entries.


----------



## bdcharles

New Comp, *"The Scarecrow"*, is live!


----------



## J.J. Maxx

bdcharles said:


> New Comp, *"The Scarecrow"*, is live!



Hmmm... interesting. Time for my Wizard of Oz sequel... _The Scarecrow..._ "The Wizard gave him a brain, but this summer, he has no heart..." _*gunshots* 

_

~ J. J.


----------



## bdcharles

J.J. Maxx said:


> Hmmm... interesting. Time for my Wizard of Oz sequel... _The Scarecrow..._ "The Wizard gave him a brain, but this summer, he has no heart..." _*gunshots*
> 
> _
> 
> ~ J. J.



Lol. "Fall pecked out his eyes; by winter we had eaten his head in a nourishing soup."

Ooh - I need judges. Let's hear from someone who hasn't done it yet.


----------



## Ibb

bdcharles said:


> Ooh - I need judges. Let's hear from someone who hasn't done it yet.



I'll judge.


----------



## bdcharles

24 hours folks. Pause Nano. Get 'em in, get 'em in; I did.


----------



## seigfried007

Absolutely not. Gung-ho on NaNo (and couldn't think of anything for the prompt anyway).


----------



## bdcharles

November's comp is closed and the judges are beavering away. Meanwhile why not mine your notepads and writing apps for prompts and slap 'em up here.

Suggest:
- A piece in a genre you don't normally read or write in
- Kill the dude, get the food


----------



## luckyscars

Suggest: 

- Write an epistolary story (a story in the style of a letter/email/forum post(s)/diary/other personal documents.
- Write a romance (PG-13 rated)
- Write a story involving weather


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Second:
Write an epistolary story

Suggest:
Write a story based on a song of your choice
Write a monster story
Write a story surrounding a magical but everyday item (like a magic saucepan, a magic Rubik's cube, etc.)
Fairy Drums
Burn It All


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## SueC

Second:
Write an epistolary story

Suggestions:
write a story based on a riddle
discovering a new planet
a story about the friend whose family you loved as a kid
creepy houses in your neighborhood


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## BornForBurning

Second: 
creepy houses in your neighborhood
Suggest: 
House of Infinite Forms
Swallow the Soul
Gate of Nanna
write a story where a musician's lyrics become reality


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## bdcharles

Any final suggestions? Expect a poll to go towards the end of the weekend


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## joshybo

I'll second House of Infinite Forms, if there's still time.


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## undead_av

second:
Write a story based on a song of your choice
Write a story surrounding a magical but everyday item (like a magic saucepan, a magic Rubik's cube, etc.)
discovering a new planet

suggestions: 
write something abstract/experimental?


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## Ibb

I know everybody's itching to see their November LM scores, and while I can't make any calls as to when they'll show up, I can promise you this: my scores are in. Great job in advance to all involved. This was a rather small batch of entries but I was thoroughly pleased with what I read. See you next month.


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## bdcharles

(to the tune of Simply Having A Wonderful Christmas Time by Paul McCartney at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMhMekfIyos)



The *poll is up* ... it's time to cheer ... submit your votes ... you heard it here ... _[*jingle, jingle*]_ ... sim-ply ha-ving a wonderful Dec LM! )


​
Sorry, what's that? Not feeling Christmassy?_ NOT FEELING CHRISTMASSY?! 




_*(sorry, sorry)*


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## bdcharles

*Scores are here.*

Also looking for some Dec judges. Shake off that Nano and that Thanksgiving and do it.


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## velo

Hey everyone, please begin posting January prompts in the new coffee shop thread- https://www.writingforums.com/threa...-Coffee-Shop?p=2257970&viewfull=1#post2257970


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## velo

I'm running late on Dec scores, sorry.  I'll have them in before the weekend is over.  After that, blame BD.


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## -xXx-

so much awesome.
in such a small space.
fabulous happened here.
jussayin'


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