# Is this undercover scenario too elaborate?



## ironpony (Sep 2, 2015)

For my story, after a gang member is arrested but then released for insufficient evidence, she then has to lay low and not make contact with the rest of the gang, unless it's an emergency, because the police now know who she is, and could survey her.

They send in an undercover cop to meet her, let him know he is one of the gang members, but a new one, since she has not spoken to the gang for a few weeks, or maybe even months, if that's better.  So he came to her to warn her that the cops have evidence on her, and is lying of course, to try to get her to give up certain information.  However, during the course of him meeting her and trying to get her to talk, she figures out that he may be an undercover cop, since he cannot answer certain questions about the gang's previous activities, that he would likely know, if he was a member.  So she tries to flee him, but he chases her down to try to convince.  She attacks him and a fight breaks out.

Three other men then come and chase down the cop.  These three men then tell her that they are gang members, but newer ones since she last saw the gang.  They came to save her from the undercover cop, since the cops are all over her, they say.  They then try to find out what she told the cops, or what they know from her.

However, these three men are also undercover cops, and it was a contingency plan, in case the first cop was discovered, and put in possible danger, by the suspect.  However, is this set up way too elaborate, even for police standards?

The crook is guilty of participating in an infamous kidnapping and that is her only crime.  But in order to bust kidnappers, would they go to such elaborate lengths?  Obviously I want them to, to an extent for entertainment, but is this too much for the audience to buy as plausible for police methods?


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## Deafmute (Sep 2, 2015)

> However, is this set up way too elaborate, even for police standards?



yes.

You have posted several times now asking us to rate the merit of a hypothetical. All of your scenarios come across as being convoluted and to hard to believe. All that said, I will give you the same advice I have given you several times already. It depends on how you write it. If you can sell all the elaborate scenes with good writing then people will be likely to accept whatever. Its called suspension of disbelief. Its done all the time with various degrees of success. Now if you want things to happen this way then go for it. Do your best and write up some scenes then bring those to us and we can give you much better advice on how to proceed.


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## Mike Mayweather (Sep 2, 2015)

I agree with the person above. If written well, the story will work but bear in mind, it is very easy to get bogged down in twists and turns and easy to lose your way.

Regards

Mike


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## TipGrundlefunk (Sep 2, 2015)

On a factual point, I don't think the police arrest people unless they have sufficient evidence. They might question someone with a view to arresting them if the evidence is forthcoming. 


Tip


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## ironpony (Sep 2, 2015)

Okay thanks.  The reason why she is arrested but then let go later, is because they wanted a witness to identify her, but the witness fails to do so, but the police still believe they had the right person.  I know I did think of having a second undercover unit as a twist after.  The question is, would the police naturally think of that big of a 'what if', far enough head, just as a contingency plan that might need to happen.

However, I recall an episode of 24 where Jack Bauer was bringing a man in to be interrogated, and they were ambushed by masked men who flipped the van over, shot the CTU agents and Jack Bauer, and rescued the kidnapped man.  Later it is revealed that they were undercover, and that the ambushers only pretended to kill the CTU agents, as a means to pretend to rescue the suspect to get him to talk.

So I feel that 24 went to even greater lengths than mine.  But it depends on how I execute it I guess.  However, what can I do to execute it more convincingly?  I mean it's pretty much, what you read is what you get, and that's the scenario.  So what can I do to make more plausible when... that's it?


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## Deafmute (Sep 2, 2015)

write it as best you can and then submit it to be critiqued and we will do our best to tell you.


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## T.S.Bowman (Sep 2, 2015)

OMG. What, exactly, is it that makes you feel like your stories should be so twisted up? You keep putting yourself into corner with scenarios that, unless you are an exceptionally gifted writer, are going to be difficult, if not impossible, for readers to grasp, much less care about. I am NOT, in any way, trying to disparage your writing abilities.

But, that being said, I think you are trying so hard for your scenarios to be "compelling" or whatever you want to call it, that you are losing sight of what really matters. 

Characters matter.

Readable prose matters. 

A GOOD story matters.

How many twists and turns you can throw in...doesn't matter if they are almost all beyond the suspension of disbelief.

Is this female gang member really stupid? After being hit up by the police, she would HAVE to be about as bright as a box of hair to accept someone approaching her as a "new" gang member and actually trusting that person. She would, in all likely scenarios, not trust this person at all.

And if the suspension of a reader's disbelief managed to make it far enough to accept THAT scenario, THE you trot out three more "new" guys that she doesn't know and she is supposed to trust them too. 

At that point, I think most readers would just throw up their hands and say "seriously?"


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## Green Rabbit (Sep 2, 2015)

I don't think the plot is too convoluted (as in, too complicated to follow or anything), but from a "suspension of disbelief" angle I had some problems with it. The amount of effort a police officer (or police force) can afford to put into a single case is pretty limited. For a police force to put four undercover cops on one case in hopes of tricking an ex-gang member into divulging some information seems a little far fetched to me. I'm also having a tough time imagining this scuffle between an undercover police officer and a female ex-gang member. Police officers, especially ones that would pass for gang members, I would expect to be in pretty good shape. I am also wondering why, if the girl is avoiding contact with her former gang, she is talking to a guy who claims to be a member of the gang? If that's the case, why doesn't she just start talking to her old friends again too?

In reality (and fiction writing is not reality, I get that), the police would bring this girl into the station for questioning in hopes that she would either confess or (more likely) rat someone else out. If they had enough evidence to charge her they would and throw her in jail in hopes that a couple of uncomfortable days might get some information out of her. Without enough evidence to charge her, they would have to turn her loose. If she was involved in an "infamous kidnapping" then I would expect either the FBI to be involved, or for them to lock her in a room for a day or two without food to get some information out of her. There are far more efficient ways to get a suspect to talk (both in fiction and in real life) than having four undercover officers trying to trick a girl into divulging secrets. Admittedly my only knowledge of this comes from "The First 48" on A&E and spy novels.

I'll second what Deafmute said -- there have been far more unbelievable stories put to paper and screen (see James Bond and Indiana Jones for starters). The key is selling the plot to the audience. Try putting it together and seeing if you can make it work.


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## Bishop (Sep 2, 2015)

Iron, after reading over all your threads again, I'll say that I have NO idea what this story is supposed to be about. A serial killer, gangs, undercover cops, kidnappings, fake kidnappings, youtube videos...

Tying this all together in one novel or movie is a LOT to try and knot into a nice little story.

I would also recommend you do some real research on police procedure and tactics. There's a lot of books out there that go over the methods and recorded cases of police history, and how they do what they do; these types of resources are an _absolute necessity_ when writing a police drama like this.


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## InstituteMan (Sep 2, 2015)

If you have to ask whether a scenario you want to write is too elaborate, the answer is always yes.

Even when I don't think the scenario is too elaborate, once I start writing it I usually realize that I need to simplify it. As my mother used to say, simple things are best.


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## Terry D (Sep 2, 2015)

If I remember right, this is a script? If so, you only have 90 to 120 pages to tell your story. My question for you, since you're not sharing the any pages of the script, is this: Do you think you can pull off all these twists and turns -- complete with satisfactory character development -- in 90 to 120 pages? It sounds to me like you have an _idea_ for a very _Usual Suspects_, or _Gone Girl_ type of story, but you seem to lack the experience to actually write it. I'd suggest simplifying.


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## bazz cargo (Sep 2, 2015)

Reminds me of Mission Impossible. You could get this much and more in a 40 minute teleplay.


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## ironpony (Sep 2, 2015)

Green Rabbit said:


> I don't think the plot is too convoluted (as in, too complicated to follow or anything), but from a "suspension of disbelief" angle I had some problems with it. The amount of effort a police officer (or police force) can afford to put into a single case is pretty limited. For a police force to put four undercover cops on one case in hopes of tricking an ex-gang member into divulging some information seems a little far fetched to me. I'm also having a tough time imagining this scuffle between an undercover police officer and a female ex-gang member. Police officers, especially ones that would pass for gang members, I would expect to be in pretty good shape. I am also wondering why, if the girl is avoiding contact with her former gang, she is talking to a guy who claims to be a member of the gang? If that's the case, why doesn't she just start talking to her old friends again too?
> 
> In reality (and fiction writing is not reality, I get that), the police would bring this girl into the station for questioning in hopes that she would either confess or (more likely) rat someone else out. If they had enough evidence to charge her they would and throw her in jail in hopes that a couple of uncomfortable days might get some information out of her. Without enough evidence to charge her, they would have to turn her loose. If she was involved in an "infamous kidnapping" then I would expect either the FBI to be involved, or for them to lock her in a room for a day or two without food to get some information out of her. There are far more efficient ways to get a suspect to talk (both in fiction and in real life) than having four undercover officers trying to trick a girl into divulging secrets. Admittedly my only knowledge of this comes from "The First 48" on A&E and spy novels.
> 
> I'll second what Deafmute said -- there have been far more unbelievable stories put to paper and screen (see James Bond and Indiana Jones for starters). The key is selling the plot to the audience. Try putting it together and seeing if you can make it work.



Okay thanks.  But I feel that the police or FBI in thrillers, often put more effort into a case in fiction than they do in real life.  The female gang member and the undercover cop, are driving at the time, so she puts the car in park while driving and thereby crashes the car.  The undercover cop is injured somewhat, so it helps her get away, and he is not at his best when it comes to fighting her off, after the accident.  That is one way I was thinking of writing it.

She is not suppose to have contact with the gang members, but the she knows the gang will contact her if it's an emergency, so if they do contact her, she will give them the benefit of the doubt, in the case of it being a possible emergency.

When the other three cops come to put on the act of ambushing the first undercover cop, they attack him and chase him down, to create the illusion for her, that they are against him.  I felt that maybe she could be fooled, on the creation of an illusion.

As for the cops holding her for two days with food, you cannot legally do that.  At least where I live, an arrested person must be fed a meal every six hours of the arrest, and can only be held for 24 hours, if they do not talk, unless under other circumstances.  So she will be fed every six hours, and wait it out.  This is really what happens in my story, she waits it out and is released after not talking.

So if she is smart, you don't believe that she can be tricked into thinking that the three cops are on her side, if the attack and chase down the other cop, and then ask her who that guy was, like they don't know him?  Also, it's not like I am trying to add as many twists as possible.  I reread this part of the script and felt that maybe one undercover cop, would not be enough to convince because she may think 'hey what if this guy is a cop?".  But if three other guys in masks came and went after the cop, then I thought that she might be fooled more, cause they went to that extra effort to point out that the first cop was not one of them.

But if this doesn't work, then I need to try a new approach.  If a person has been hit up by the police, but they couldn't get her to talk and had to let her go, what can the police do to make her trust an undercover and give him information?  That's really all I need for this part of the story, so how can I write it in a way, that she will talk to an undercover and be convinced after?

So far I have done a first draft before talking about fixing mistakes in the script.  The first draft is 97 pages, so it is definitely not too long of a length it seems so far.


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## DaBlaRR (Sep 3, 2015)

Do you ever put yourself in your characters shoes? 

If I was a gangster who was laying low, such as your girl in this script and I can only be contacted in case of an emergency, why would some new recruits come talk to me about it. If I was this gangster, who is smart, it would be someone who I know well that will come approach me. Not new recruits. Not to mention if she is established in this gang, she would piss on new recruits. 

My point is. As a gangster, she would be way to smart to fall for that. 

Lastly, I could be wrong with this one because I never tried... can you put a moving car in park?


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## ironpony (Sep 3, 2015)

DaBlaRR said:


> Do you ever put yourself in your characters shoes?
> 
> If I was a gangster who was laying low, such as your girl in this script and I can only be contacted in case of an emergency, why would some new recruits come talk to me about it. If I was this gangster, who is smart, it would be someone who I know well that will come approach me. Not new recruits. Not to mention if she is established in this gang, she would piss on new recruits.
> 
> ...



I asked a mechanic and he says you can, which will wreck the car.  What if the emergency was is that the gang wanted to know what she told the police, if anything?  The reason why they sent new members is because in case she is being monitored, the new members can stay away from the old members, and the police will not link them to the old members directly?

Could this be a valid reason when they explain it to her?  Even if the gang's reason is not the most logical, they are undercover cops who are grasping at straws at this point, so they are willing to try non-ideal methods.  Do you think it works in sort of a grasping at straws type way?


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## Bishop (Sep 3, 2015)

ironpony said:


> Could this be a valid reason when they explain it to her?  Even if the gang's reason is not the most logical, they are undercover cops who are grasping at straws at this point, so they are willing to try non-ideal methods.  Do you think it works in sort of a grasping at straws type way?



No. Try and put yourself in her shoes. People who she's never met, claiming to be part of her gang (usually gangs are a very intimate grouping, specifically because if you're doing illegal acts, you need people you know and who you know you can trust) are asking her what she ratted out to the cops. But let's say she believes they're actually part of the gang... first thing I would say in her shoes is for them to take me to the highest-ranked member that I know and trust. I'll only talk to that person. I would say it's an emergency and I need to talk to Rico. His name is Rico in this scenario...

"Tell us what you told them," they'd say.

"I'm not talkin' to no one but Rico!" I'd shout back.

In her circumstances, she'd be overly cautious. Just blabbing important information to new faces? That doesn't happen in gangs. If they're new members, and if she believes they're new members, then she 1) has seniority over them, and 2) simply wouldn't trust them with sensitive information.


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## Kyle R (Sep 3, 2015)

Your plot sounds fine to me. Very clever. I like it. :encouragement:

Using multiple undercover cops as a contingency plan is not a new idea. See _The Departed_ if you haven't already. The whole movie is about the uncertainty of knowing who's undercover, who's legit, who's an informant, who's working both sides, et cetera . . .

The reader/audience will believe anything you sell to them, provided you sell it well. They're here because they _want_ you to sell them a story.

Make your plot plausible, that's all. It doesn't have to be bulletproof. Just plausible. What your audience wants is to be entertained.


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## T.S.Bowman (Sep 3, 2015)

You may want to ask your mechanic to clarify what he meant by "wreck."

Putting a moving car into Park will destroy the transmission...but will not destroy the car itself. Trust me, I have found myself in the position of having to do that when I had a catastrophic brake failure.


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## Green Rabbit (Sep 3, 2015)

At best, it depends on the car. They did this on Mythbusters a few years ago and were unable to get a moving car to go into reverse or park.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hakNxO5pME4

This is one of those situations where quite literally, your mileage may vary.


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## pgbthewriter (Sep 3, 2015)

I think this is a little too complicated but it all depends on how you write it.


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## ironpony (Sep 3, 2015)

Okay thanks.  The problem is, with the police posing as the gang, they only know one other member.  Not the leader or anything.

The police could make up a story though.  Like for example the police do not know any of the gang members though, so when they talk to her, they cannot identify anyone in the gang to confirm they are a part of it. The only gang member they know is currently on trial, and the trial starts tomorrow. Can they use this to their advantage while undercover? Like maybe they could get her to talk by telling her that they are new gang members, and the reason why the others did not give them their names when they were recruited was because since one of them is on trial, it is for security reasons. The tell her that the police have more evidence for the trial since she was arrested, so she must have given the cops something without knowing it.

Will this be a good reason to get her to talk?


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## pgbthewriter (Sep 3, 2015)

ironpony said:


> Will this be a good reason to get her to talk?



I doubt it, maybe get rid of the gang part and make it some "bent cops" looking to settle a score?


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## ironpony (Sep 3, 2015)

I can't really get rid of the gang since they are the central premise of the story.


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## Bishop (Sep 3, 2015)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  The problem is, with the police posing as the gang, they only know one other member.  Not the leader or anything.
> 
> The police could make up a story though.  Like for example the police do not know any of the gang members though, so when they talk to her, they cannot identify anyone in the gang to confirm they are a part of it. The only gang member they know is currently on trial, and the trial starts tomorrow. Can they use this to their advantage while undercover? Like maybe they could get her to talk by telling her that they are new gang members, and the reason why the others did not give them their names when they were recruited was because since one of them is on trial, it is for security reasons. The tell her that the police have more evidence for the trial since she was arrested, so she must have given the cops something without knowing it.
> 
> Will this be a good reason to get her to talk?



No. Because if they know NOTHING of the gang, why would she talk to them at all? Even if she's convinced they're 'new members' why would she talk to the lowest recruits about anything at all incriminating? That's really illogical. And frankly, if they can only name the one that the cops have in custody, that just screams 'I'm an undercover cop.'

As we say in corporate America: it'd be above their paygrade. If they're not trusted with the NAMES of other gang members, they're not trusted in the gang. I really *REALLY *strongly recommend doing research on both police procedure and on gang culture in the US.


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## ironpony (Sep 3, 2015)

Bishop said:


> No. Try and put yourself in her shoes. People who she's never met, claiming to be part of her gang (usually gangs are a very intimate grouping, specifically because if you're doing illegal acts, you need people you know and who you know you can trust) are asking her what she ratted out to the cops. But let's say she believes they're actually part of the gang... first thing I would say in her shoes is for them to take me to the highest-ranked member that I know and trust. I'll only talk to that person. I would say it's an emergency and I need to talk to Rico. His name is Rico in this scenario...
> 
> "Tell us what you told them," they'd say.
> 
> ...



Actually this might work.  What if she just said she would only talk to Rico.  We'll call the leader Rico here.  So if she names the leader, it will give the cops the name of the leader, and that will be enough for them to go on for the rest of the story.  How about I just write it like that then, where she says she will only talk to the 'leader's name' and then they have what they need.  Does that work?


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## pgbthewriter (Sep 3, 2015)

I doubt she would be dumb enough to do that?


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## ironpony (Sep 3, 2015)

Okay thanks.  Well I could have it so that she would ask to speak to 'the leader', before she says anything.  Is this enough for the cops to know she is in collusion with the gang?  Even though she doesn't give up any names or specific past crimes, would an innocent person ask a cop disguised as a mysterious stranger, to speak to 'the leader'?  Perhaps she would still say that?


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## DaBlaRR (Sep 3, 2015)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  Well I could have it so that she would ask to speak to 'the leader', before she says anything.  Is this enough for the cops to know she is in collusion with the gang?  Even though she doesn't give up any names or specific past crimes, would an innocent person ask a cop disguised as a mysterious stranger, to speak to 'the leader'?  Perhaps she would still say that?



Why do the cops have to be so clueless about the other members of the gang? Why can't they just know who they are? 

This is another thing that doesn't jive right. For Cops to do an undercover sting, they aren't going to go in blind and know nothing about who they are after. They would have done their research, and know who and what they are dealing with. They would never endanger themselves going in blind. 

To be undercover, in the safest way possible. You need to become one of them. By becoming one of them, you need to know them VERY well. 

And as I said above, the girl would never spill anything to a new recruit. Even if the gang symbol was carved in to their chest, and they are SCREAMING gangster… She still wouldn't talk to them. 

Another thing, she is in hiding. In this line of work… it's DTA - don't trust anyone. First thing other members think, or at least it would cross their minds is, what if she is turned into a rat? 

There are too many factors here I think that don't make this believable. I think you should reconsider this part of your story.


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## ironpony (Sep 4, 2015)

Okay thanks.  The reason why I do not want the cops to know the other members, is because the other members have to go out committing other crimes later in the story.  This scenario with the woman takes place early on.  The reason being she is the first link they have to the gang that starts off the rest of the plot.  But I want the other members, especially the leader to be able to go around committing other crimes, undetected.  If the police know who he is, then he will not be able to.

So I need to keep that part the same.  It would be much more workable to change this current scenario instead.  Is their anything else the cops can do to for her to give up information while she is on the outside?

What if the police thought that maybe they could fake an assassination attempt on her? Like say fire off some loud blank rounds from a pistols and then have those special effect things go off near her. I forget what they are called but basically they are used for special effects in movies where they want to simulate bullets hitting the street or hitting building walls.

The police could detonate those around her, and lead her to be believe that gunmen are trying to pick her off, and she could see some masked men with guns at a distance. This could lead her to believe the gang sees her as a liability and wants her dead, thus making her want to talk to the police to put them away. What do you think? That is just one option if workable.

But I don't know if the police would do this?  I mean a lot of times in fiction, if a gang member will not turn, they leave it at that.  They do not go out faking assassination attempts to scare them.  Basically I just want them to do something to figure out she is linked to them, as oppose to them wasting their time.  And they only have one day to do it, because they want to use her for evidence at the trial of the other gang member.  So is their anything they can do to find out, in just one day?


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## DaBlaRR (Sep 4, 2015)

Simplicity is best, at least I think. Don't make the police undercover gangsters. They know her right? Where she hangs out, what she likes to do etc etc. Why don't you just have a cop befriend her. Have this person some how make her come to them… something along that lines… then build a friendship and trust. 

I dunno.. something like that.


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## ironpony (Sep 4, 2015)

Okay thanks.  So she wouldn't know he was a cop, right?  Is it possible to do it in such a short time span though?


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## DaBlaRR (Sep 4, 2015)

Ya time span would be a problem. I don' t know your story. So these suggestions could be useless. If time span is an issue, is there anyway you can have this character already exist as her friend? Like make it so they were friends from the beginning, for 'x' amount of time. And use it as a twist, that she turns out to be a cop.


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## ironpony (Sep 4, 2015)

Hmmm.  Well this would mean that the friend would have already had to have known her before she was arrested, so that makes it tricky.  She was arrested for being caught in the act of a heist type crime, before that, they didn't know anything of the gang.  What if I had a cop that is already undercover with the gang but he only knew the one who was on trial.  The one who was on trial was the one who recruited him in.  But he does not know the rest of them members because they wore ski masks and disguised their voices the entire time, through out each of their gatherings for criminal activity.  They did this in an effort to hide themselves from the newer member, just in case.  What do you think?

Also I cannot have the cops know anything about this gang back then.  Which means they would have to recruit him on their own, without the police actually planning to go undercover.  They would have to recruit a cop by accident (or maybe they know for some reason), and they would have to keep their identities secret from him the entire time, accept for the one on trial, since he was the one who would recruit him in.

Does this sound like it holds together at all?  But the police would not be able to know anything about the gang cause I can only have them know about two members.  The woman and the other one trial.  But if a cop was working undercover, surely the other members would not be able to escape surveillance, after each meeting.


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## T.S.Bowman (Sep 4, 2015)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  The reason why I do not want the cops to know the other members, is because the other members have to go out committing other crimes later in the story.  This scenario with the woman takes place early on.  The reason being she is the first link they have to the gang that starts off the rest of the plot.  But I want the other members, especially the leader to be able to go around committing other crimes, undetected.  If the police know who he is, then he will not be able to.



OI. If you did any real research into gang mentality and how they operate, you will find that the leader may have BECOME leader by committing certain crimes or doing certain activities...but once in the leadership position they NEVER  do anything like the crimes you seem to be speaking of. They JUST DONT. They are the leader of the gang. They may give the orders, but they will not carry out the acts themselves. That's why they HAVE underlings to do their bidding. The only way a gang leader would do the things you refer to would be if he was exceptionally stupid or extremely arrogant. In gang life they equate to the same thing. And if a leader DID do those things himself, he would not be the leader for very long. I am not saying these things for no reason. I have never been a member of a gang, but I knew several people who were and found myself in thee unique position of having those men trust me enough to answer the questions I asked them.


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## Bishop (Sep 4, 2015)

ironpony said:


> She was arrested for being caught in the act of a heist type crime, before that, they didn't know anything of the gang.  What if I had a cop that is already undercover with the gang but he only knew the one who was on trial.  The one who was on trial was the one who recruited him in.  But he does not know the rest of them members because they wore ski masks and disguised their voices the entire time, through out each of their gatherings for criminal activity.  They did this in an effort to hide themselves from the newer member, just in case.  What do you think?



That's simply not how gangs work.

First, if someone goes into a deep-cover situation, then the police and--likely--the FBI already know a LOT about this gang. I promise. Then, when a gang member gets arrested, anyone he vouched for entry would likely be made suspect within the gang, because the police were onto the guy on trial, and thereby, probably his associates.

More importantly, gangs don't just hire people they think are worthwhile employees... Even undercover cops have to get in at the ground level and aren't even made a member until they've established deep trust relationships with the members. Then, they make it a part of their lives. Tattoos, how they dress, who they talk to, where they live, where they eat and drink... It's not just something they're associated with. It's their lives.


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## ironpony (Sep 4, 2015)

Okay thanks.  However I don't have to have a gang have to tatoos.  I mean if the gang is suppose to smart, they wouldn't all get a mark that identifies them.  That way the cops can know who to survey by their tattoos.


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## Bishop (Sep 4, 2015)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  However I don't have to have a gang have to tatoos.  I mean if the gang is suppose to smart, they wouldn't all get a mark that identifies them.  That way the cops can know who to survey by their tattoos.



Organized crime takes on a multitude of different levels of intelligence and sophistication. Gangs, by the term, usually has a certain connotation. So if they're smart enough to know not to have that type of association, they're definitely smart enough to know how to establish trust within their ranks. That would make me even less likely to believe this girl would talk to the 'new members'.


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## DaBlaRR (Sep 4, 2015)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  However I don't have to have a gang have to tatoos.  I mean if the gang is suppose to smart, they wouldn't all get a mark that identifies them.  That way the cops can know who to survey by their tattoos.



I missed the post where someone said they have to have Tattoos. Anyways they don't. Mob guys don't (some do), but not like, biker dudes. 

You know, at some point with the advice that multiple posters gave you, you need to throw in the towel and go back to the drawing board. I'm going to float my own boat for a second.... I really think you should consider my post about them being friends from the beginning and making the twist that the friend was undercover all along... start your story at a different point.. or do something, but everything you are suggesting from beginning post to your last... just ain't gonna work. BUT that's my opinion. For all I know, you'll kick the shit outta all the stuff that you're being advised against and then we will all look dumb... haha...


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## ironpony (Sep 5, 2015)

Okay thanks.  I can change the whole thing then.  What if I wrote it so that the cops tried but couldn't get anything out of her and it doesn't work at all?  As far as having a cop get to know her for days, I may not have that kind of time because of other plot elements that need to all come together in just a few hours.  But if it their undercover efforts do not work at all, is that an option?


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## T.S.Bowman (Sep 5, 2015)

It isn't whether or not something IS an option. Everything is an option. The question would be whether or not it's believable and workable.

Not knowing the entirety of the idea, I don't think many of us could really tell you if having the cops undercover work not work at all would actually be believable or workable.


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