# Should I use colors as codenames for my villains?



## ironpony (Dec 4, 2018)

For my screenplay, I have a gang of villains who would use codenames while talking to each other, so the police or anyone possibly listening in, could not pick up on who they are.

I was having trouble coming up with codenames for them and thought, maybe I could do colors, instead of numbers or letters, but there are two movies that already had color codenames, which were The Taking Of Pelham One Two Three, and Reservoir Dogs.

So I am wondering if it will be seen as been there, done that, therefore.  What do you think?


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## Arachne (Dec 4, 2018)

I don’t think you’d get away with it, unless the characters themselves are fans of one of the movies and are copying. 

If not then it would just look like you’re  lacking your own ideas. 

Arachne


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## bdcharles (Dec 4, 2018)

ironpony said:


> For my screenplay, I have a gang of villains who would use codenames while talking to each other, so the police or anyone possibly listening in, could not pick up on who they are.
> 
> I was having trouble coming up with codenames for them and thought, maybe I could do colors, instead of numbers or letters, but there are two movies that already had color codenames, which were The Taking Of Pelham One Two Three, and Reservoir Dogs.
> 
> So I am wondering if it will be seen as been there, done that, therefore.  What do you think?



When I first read this question, I thought Reservoir Rogs, so I would say it will likely be seen as derivative. See if you can nickname your villains by some convention that relates to something, eg where they're from, or anything else that's relevant to them. Use it to show something.


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## Bayview (Dec 4, 2018)

Add another who immediately thought of Reservoir Dogs. Feels derivative.


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## Kevin (Dec 4, 2018)

Bayview said:


> Add another who immediately thought of Reservoir Dogs. Feels derivative.


Ding, dang...ding-a-dang, dang it! 
Okay... numbers, I'm thinking that they call each other numbers.


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## Terry D (Dec 4, 2018)

Code name them after Greek, Norse, or Roman gods.

Or trees

Or states

Or positions on a baseball field; short-stop, catcher, pitcher, etc.

Or city names

Or any one of about a bazzillion  other things. This really isn't difficult. If you can't make this simple choice, how are you going to make the tough choices?


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## Kyle R (Dec 4, 2018)

If you knew your characters well enough, you'd know what codenames they would use.

So instead of wondering, "What codenames can I come up with for them as the writer?", you should be thinking, "What codenames would _they_ choose?" :encouragement:


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## Dluuni (Dec 4, 2018)

Plus, you can always make it an in joke in the setting. "Wait, we're using colors for code names? Didn't they do that in Reservoir Dogs?" "They use colors for their radio names? At least we know they like Reservoir Dogs."


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## Ralph Rotten (Dec 4, 2018)

Reservoir dogs.
And that is about the only place where I can remember anyone pulling off that naming convention. I read something recently where they tried it (published by a big publishing house) and it just did not work--detracted from the rest of the story.


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## Guard Dog (Dec 4, 2018)

I dunno... Chartreuse, Teal, Mauve, Bisque...  Might work. :eagerness::highly_amused::devilish:



G.D.


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## ironpony (Dec 4, 2018)

That's what I was thinking too, just use colors that were not used in Reservoir Dogs, but there is not enough different colors that were not used, to go around for all of them, I don't think.  But what if I did use more exotic named colors, such as those or like Sage, Cyan, Amaranth, or Azure...

Would that be different enough that readers will not think of Reservoir Dogs?


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## Terry D (Dec 4, 2018)

Why use colors at all? It's an obvious rip-off of Reservoir Dogs, so why set yourself up for that? But do what you want. Trying to help you is pointless.


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## Guard Dog (Dec 4, 2018)

Wait... He thought I was serious???

*facepalm*





G.D.


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## bdcharles (Dec 4, 2018)

ironpony said:


> That's what I was thinking too, just use colors that were not used in Reservoir Dogs, but there is not enough different colors that were not used, to go around for all of them, I don't think.  But what if I did use more exotic named colors, such as those or like Sage, Cyan, Amaranth, or Azure...
> 
> Would that be different enough that readers will not think of Reservoir Dogs?



No. You may as well have a large sign over you saying "Not ripping off Reservoir Dogs" at this point. And besides which, Messrs. Teal, Fuchsia and Robins-Egg just don't cut it as particularly villainous names. Choose a different convention: maybe clouds (Mr. Nimbus, Mr. Cumulus), or the periodic table of elements (Mr. Cadmium, Mr. Lead) or my own favourite, the various types of spanner (Mr. Adjustable, Mr. Open-Ended, Mr. Wrench). Now those guys have some serious personality (issues)!


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## PiP (Dec 4, 2018)

ironpony said:


> For my screenplay, I have a gang of villains who would use codenames while talking to each other, so the police or anyone possibly listening in, could not pick up on who they are.
> 
> I was having trouble coming up with codenames for them and thought, maybe I could do colors, instead of numbers or letters, but there are two movies that already had color codenames, which were The Taking Of Pelham One Two Three, and Reservoir Dogs.
> 
> So I am wondering if it will be seen as been there, done that, therefore.  What do you think?



Rather than colours, why not use the names of animals or birds'


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## ironpony (Dec 4, 2018)

Oh I just thought of the idea of using different colors before.  I could use something else then.  In order to answer the question, what would the characters do, and I seem them using colors since it's simple, and logically most criminals wouldn't care if the police compared them to Reservoir Dogs, so my characters wouldn't care.  But I, the writer would so I should still think of something else then, if people are going to see it that way.


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## sigmadog (Dec 4, 2018)

I'd name 'em after breakfast cereal mascots: Tony the Tiger, Cap'n Crunch, Lucky Leprechaun, etc. and I'd toss in a few other food mascots, like Charlie Tuna or something.

But that's just me.


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## PiP (Dec 4, 2018)

sigmadog said:


> I'd name 'em after breakfast cereal mascots: Tony the Tiger, Cap'n Crunch, Lucky Leprechaun, etc. and I'd toss in a few other food mascots, like Charlie Tuna or something.
> 
> But that's just me.



Actually, that's not a bad idea!


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## ironpony (Dec 4, 2018)

Yeah that's not a bad idea, or something like that!  I will keep thinking then.


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## Ralph Rotten (Dec 4, 2018)

Personally, I'd give them nick names.
No, not colors, not code names, not named after breakfast cereals or bisquits, just nicknames.

See, a nickname not only helps keep the character straight in the reader's mind, but the right nickname can actually help to illustrate a character.  If you have a character nicknamed 'Rape' then the reader gets an idea what that guy is all about.  A chatracter called 'Undertaker' would also be quite revealing.

Nicknames.



BTW: The reason that they used colors for names in Resevoir Dogs is because they were an assembled team. Someone else put the job together and hired them as freelancers.  None of them knew each other, and the code names were so they couldn't dime each other out.


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## luckyscars (Dec 4, 2018)

This is a sad example of lack of imagination.

I don't understand you, ironpony. I would personally relish this kind of opportunity if I were you. They're criminals, right? That sets up some excellent (and easy) black humor. Like in the movie "Point Break" when the bank robbers gang is called the "Ex Presidents" and they all wear masks of LBJ, Reagan, Nixon, etc and adopt their personas. It's funny but also menacing.

Name them after something cute and fluffy and innocent sounding. The Seven Dwarfs (Happy, Grumpy, Bashful, etc) is one that came to mind. My Little Ponies? I don't know. That juxtaposition of innocence and evil always works and its funny. 

For Christ's sake don't rip off Reservoir Dogs.


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## ironpony (Dec 4, 2018)

Well the reason why I didn't relish it too much is cause I thought if I got too carried away with it, that it would draw attention to itself in a gimmicky way possibly.  And in Reservoir dogs, even though the idea was that they don't know each other, in my story, eveeryone knows each other and they are all really tight.

The idea was they would use nicknames while talking on walkie talkies and burner phones, in case any police were listening in.  The Seven Dwarfs is a good idea, it's just there is only seven of them where as with my gang I might want more than seven.  I can keep thinking.


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## luckyscars (Dec 4, 2018)

ironpony said:


> Well the reason why I didn't relish it too much is cause I thought if I got too carried away with it, that it would draw attention to itself in a gimmicky way possibly.  And in Reservoir dogs, even though the idea was that they don't know each other, in my story, eveeryone knows each other and they are all really tight.
> 
> The idea was they would use nicknames while talking on walkie talkies and burner phones, in case any police were listening in.  The Seven Dwarfs is a good idea, it's just there is only seven of them where as with my gang I might want more than seven.  I can keep thinking.



So...The Twelve Apostles?

The reason it feels gimmicky is probably because it's a gimmick. But sometimes gimmicks work. They can be funny. They present  opportunities for ironic use of names. Like in the dwarf example "Happy" would be a total sadist or something. "Bashful" could be a womanizer. Sneezy could be, I don't know, a cocaine addict. Get it?

The funniest part of Point Break was when while in the process of robbing a bank the guy in the Richard Nixon mark randomly quipped "I'm not a crook". This stuff should be bread and butter to creative minds.


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## Darkkin (Dec 4, 2018)

From a reader's standpoint, lines like:

  'Cyan!  Where the hell are Mauve and Periwinkle!  And why is Yellow-green sulking?  Oh, he's Celery, not Yellow-green?  Since when? Since you talked to the guy with tetrachromacy?  So Green, isn't green, he's Maple Leaf in June...'

Fine, you can be Perfect Princess Purple, just get to your damn post!  

Douglas can you hear me?  
My name is not Douglas, it is Lawrence, but I'm not supposed to tell you that...
Douglas, is your code name, idiot!
Why Douglas?  Why not just pine tree?
Plants aren't the gimmick, colours are.
So how did you arrive at Douglas?
Green like the needles of the tree...
So why not just say Green?
That would be cliche and I was asked to specify, thusly Douglas Fir Needle Green.
And you called me the idiot? 

Shit, Cinnamon!  Do you think we should tell Ocher?  Or was his name Umber, Amber...I forgot.

These and more keep springing to mind...Sorry, but it is tough to take seriously...


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## luckyscars (Dec 4, 2018)

Darkkin said:


> From a reader's standpoint, lines like:  'Cyan!  Where the hell are Mauve amd Periwinkle!  And why is Yellow-green sulking?  Oh, he's Celery, not Yellow-green?  Since when?  Tetrachromacy?  So Green, isn't green, he's Maple Leaf in June...Fine, you can be Perfect Princess Purple, just get to your damn post!'  These and more keep springing to mind...I cannot take it seriously...



Uh well sure, anything is going to sound dumb if you _make _it sound dumb...

I'm sure Ian Fleming probably thought twice before naming the head honcho of his lesbian cat burglar gang "Pussy Galore", but it doesn't mean that _Goldfinger _isn't a serious novel and its certainly a successful one. It's down to how its written. Otherwise names are mostly just names.

Either way, there's no need to exacerbate the OP's already staggering self-doubt issues.


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## Darkkin (Dec 4, 2018)

Names can be infused with meaning, clever kenning adding layers to a piece.  Hence the multifaceted layers of definition with a single word.  But if it is just a handle to identify Party A and is not meant to add depth to the writing, why fret one's self to flinders over sounding like Example X?  As long as the reader knows who is who and who is where, the names really are not important.

A gimmick is a gimmick and punny names if not handled lightly can come off sounding contrived.  Consider writing the scence without a gimmick, just a letter, this gives basic structure.  Once that is in place try different gimmicks if one so choses.  Maybe all vowels. 

 A...have you heard from E?
No, I haven't.
Not I, A...E

Akin to 'Who's on First?' context of a gimmick can make or break a piece.  It is for the writer to decide what works for their skill set and individual piece.  It is not for the public to cast a vote on what the OP should be using as handles for their characters.

Heck, there is another group of objects to consider, hardware and tools...Names can be a lot of fun and fodder for creativity.  And there is nothing wrong with approaching a basic idea with a bit of humour.  While it might be reprehensible to some, it is an honest observation.  Consider conversations throughout one's day...and take into account how many people use puns, how they react to them.  Foibles of the human condition, basic characterisations, active conversations.  It is how scenes evolve, take the idea and run with.

Name characters using old nursery rhymes for example:

Ding.  Dong.  Ditch.  Hickory.  Dickery.  Doc.  Mouse.  Clock.

Don't want to sound like examples A and B, then don't use the theme.  Find one you can make your own.

Hardware and Tools theme:

Tack.  Hammer.  Level.  Primer.  Phillips.  Flathead.  Ratchet.


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## Guard Dog (Dec 4, 2018)

Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta, Epsilon, Zeta.... Should I continue? How many bad guys am I assigning designations to?

What? They're Japanese? *sigh* Damn... Okay... Ichi, Ni, San, Shi, Go, Roku...

...Oh come on, 'Pony. Even you have to get the idea by now.






G.D.


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## Guard Dog (Dec 4, 2018)

luckyscars said:


> Either way, there's no need to exacerbate the OP's already staggering self-doubt issues.



They are phenomenal, aren't they? Truly remarkable.






G.D.


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## Darkkin (Dec 4, 2018)

If one is looking to have names that have an added depth of context, check out a technique called kenning.  Yes, it is more commonly used in poetry, but like LS's Pussy Galore example, it is an excellent tool.  Consider the context of the piece and ask, what is the function of the name, merely an identifier, or does it serve a greater purpose?  e.g.  Topic of conversation, possible humourous inferences, cause for misunderstandings, so on and so forth.

Try approaching from a different angle, start with the context and content of the scene (players and their conversations), instead of should I use Gimmick A?  Write a draft of Scene X.  Does Gimmick A fit the scene and its cast, does it function well with the characters without distracting from the plot?  If it does, then use Gimmick A.  There are some things only the author can determine and the names (regular and code) are among the most basic.

Just like with some narrative pieces I've critiqued, a writer will have a great premise, but fails to give Questing Guy a name.  Readers need something to empathise with, names are the first step in that process.  A writer asking others to name (yes, even code names) their characters defeats the creative process.  How can a writer get to know their own characters if Mary Sue and Questing Guy came up with the monikers?

And look at past horrors like the Holocaust.  People were striped of their names, identities, reduced to numbers.  Prisons today still use inmate numbers and have throughout history.  A couple of notable ones, fictitious and non, Prisoner 64389000 and Prisoner 24061.  They started as numbers but like every individual, they still possessed a name, an indentity.


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## ironpony (Dec 4, 2018)

Oh okay.  Well I don't mean for it to be come off as a gimmick.  I mean the police have their own code talk like when they use 10 codes, or when they read suspects their rights, but it's not meant to be a gimmick.  So I thought I would treat the codenames like that and just have it be something that naturally plays into the story, but nothing more.

I could have fun with it, just not sure if I should for this particular story.  I can think about it more...


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## Darkkin (Dec 4, 2018)

Police have standardised procedures to minimise miscommunication and potential legal complications.  There is no gimmick and unless these criminal masterminds has seen service in military, law enforcement, emergency response services, security constructs, or have been at the organised crime thing for a long time, standardised communication is not going to be par for the course.  Establish a working construct, (rough draft), and your pieces should fall into place without having the public name your characters...


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## luckyscars (Dec 4, 2018)

ironpony said:


> I can think about it more...



That's literally the last thing you need to do.

I'm serious ironpony, I have never, NEVER, spent more than a few rich minutes on a character name - except once and that was only because I had the urge to make it an anagram (after a day or so of nothing I dropped that). I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest most people on here don't really give theirs that much thought either. Like, my character's name is usually the first thing that pops into my head I don't immediately dislike. That's it. That's all you need.

The very notion you would spend MORE time on something this inconsequential is the perfect example of why you so frequently attract snark. You might have some good ideas. You might be a good writer. Neither of those things matter if you spend all your time second-guessing over irrelevancies. 

Use my Seven Dwarf idea - it's a damn fabulous idea and I'm kind of annoyed I don't have a story to use it in myself - and get on with the work.


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## ironpony (Dec 4, 2018)

Oh well it's just I was told to think of codenames that would fit their characters or their theme so I thought that would require more thought compared to a normal birth given name.  As for the dwarf idea, it is a good idea, it's just I was planning on having possibly more than just seven of them, that's all.


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## bdcharles (Dec 5, 2018)

ironpony said:


> Oh well it's just I was told to think of codenames that would fit their characters or their theme so I thought that would require more thought compared to a normal birth given name.  As for the dwarf idea, it is a good idea, it's just I was planning on having possibly more than just seven of them, that's all.



Just extend the dwarf-idea and use some additional emotions, so alongside Dopey, Grumpy, Bashful, Sneezy, Happy, Sleepy and Doc, you could have Boastful, Hyper, Randy, Self-Deprecating, Vitriolic, Troubled, and Nails.

I mean, I'm just brainstorming here but this way they could have come up with the nicknames based on the person's general character. And besides - who wouldn't want a story about a dwarf called Randy?


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## Bloggsworth (Dec 5, 2018)

Colours are too specific and disassociative therefore hard to remember. False names and, in America, specially of the ethnic kind, can lead police in the wrong direction (just read the statistics). If you are a blue-eyed blond of Swedish extraction and are referred to as Jesus or Okawando, the American police will, as usual, jump to a conclusion and rush around looking for Latinos or Africans - Sorry to sound cynical, but it cannot be gainsaid...


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## Jack of all trades (Dec 5, 2018)

ironpony said:


> For my screenplay, I have a gang of villains who would use codenames while talking to each other, so the police or anyone possibly listening in, could not pick up on who they are.
> 
> I was having trouble coming up with codenames for them and thought, maybe I could do colors, instead of numbers or letters, but there are two movies that already had color codenames, which were The Taking Of Pelham One Two Three, and Reservoir Dogs.
> 
> So I am wondering if it will be seen as been there, done that, therefore.  What do you think?



Once upon a time, and long ago, there was no electricity. That meant there was no Internet, no television, no movies. Stories and plays were the available forms of entertainment.

In those days, some stories and plays were no longer told/acted, and the content was forgotten. New generations could come up with the same ideas, and it was original. Again.

Today everything is preserved. That makes it unlikely that you could come up with something that hasn't been done already. So there's little point worrying about that.

Do what works for you and your story. Then remember the critics will always be ready to criticize. If they are complaining about your work, at least they are talking about it.

Good luck!


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## Kyle R (Dec 5, 2018)

ironpony said:


> In order to answer the question, what would the characters do, and I seem them using colors since it's simple


Simple to you the writer, or simple to the characters?

Which of your characters like simple things, and which ones like complex things? Which ones like elegance and which ones like coarseness? Which ones worry about codenames and which ones simply don't give a shit?

I'm guessing your "villains" aren't just one homogenous group with a singular hive mind; they're individuals with their own thoughts and tastes.

Perhaps you can include a scene where they argue about this whole codename concept?



			
				ironpony said:
			
		

> ... and logically most criminals wouldn't care if the police compared them to Reservoir Dogs, so my characters wouldn't care.


Are your characters logical types? Do they think and behave like "most criminals"?

What _would_ they care about?



			
				ironpony said:
			
		

> But I, the writer would so I should still think of something else then, if people are going to see it that way.


If you want to think of something other than colors, do it. But don't do it because you're worried about what others might think. Do it because you feel it's right for the story. And do it because it's what the characters would do.

Personally, I'm not convinced that you know your characters well enough. If you did, you wouldn't have to ask others for codename ideas—your characters would have their own codenames that apply uniquely to them.

And yes, even "villains" need to be thought about as characters—otherwise you run into problems like this, where you don't know your villains well enough, so you're unsure what they would even want to call themselves.

The better you know your characters, the more these kinds of creative problems tend to solve themselves. :encouragement:


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## ironpony (Dec 5, 2018)

Okay thanks!  Well the villains in my story a group of people who are going around committing rape crimes, mostly because of how they are treated by the opposite sex so they are going around doing it to make their own statement, but the police do not know who they are.  They want to stay secret so I would have to come up with codenames that those characters would decide on.  I could do the dwarfs just not sure if they would use the seven dwarfs particularly.


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## Bayview (Dec 5, 2018)

ironpony said:


> Well the villains in my story a group of people who are going around committing rape crimes, mostly because of how they are treated by the opposite sex so they are going around doing it to make their own statement



Why don't you call them Pathetic Incel Loser #1, Pathetic Incel Loser #2, Pathetic Incel Loser #3, etc.?

(In case you haven't caught on, I continue to STRONGLY object to your attempts to explain the horrific behaviour of these characters as "mostly because of how they are treated by the opposite sex".)


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## ironpony (Dec 5, 2018)

Oh okay, thanks.  Well they are the villains, so they are expected to be evildoers that need to be stopped, or so that is what I intended.


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## Guard Dog (Dec 5, 2018)

Damn... Now I'm considering starting a thread on what people think is the most politically powerful religious organization these days, just to take some of the heat off'a 'Pony... :nightmare:

...that and asking how long people think it'll be before religion as such is extinct.

I figure either of those two should be good for a few rounds of distractions. :devilish::very_drunk::twisted:

They'd certainly give folks something to write about.





G.D.


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## Ralph Rotten (Dec 5, 2018)

In a century they will be teaching religion right alongside Greek mythology. 
They're both of about the same relevancy.


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## Ralph Rotten (Dec 5, 2018)

...and I am gonna laugh soooo loud when Pony sells his screenplay for a million bucks using all the cheeky suggestions he got from this forum.


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## luckyscars (Dec 5, 2018)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, thanks.  Well they are the villains, so they are expected to be evildoers that need to be stopped, or so that is what I intended.



I haven't read your work but the fact you are speaking of rape as a plot device, a kind of literary steroid, simply to level up "super evil", and considering giving the gangsters ostensibly "cool" nicknames to boot...indicates you probably aren't coming at a subject like sexual violence from a particularly thoughtful standpoint. That's not a slight on you really. Most writers would struggle with it, which is why most avoid it.

Do what you want but it will probably backfire. IMO the kind of audience who typically enjoys action novels (young, mainly male) doesn't need any more gratuitous rape in their fiction.


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## Ralph Rotten (Dec 5, 2018)

Pony: Don't listen to any of that stuff. If you wanna write anything worth a damn then you need to swing for the fences. Don't write a book the way any of us [hacks] would write it; write something entirely new. Shock, scare, thrill, but don't write ANYTHING predictable enough to be suggested in a writing forum.  

So drink a pot of crack-laced coffee and sit down and write that book like a sociopath. Damn the torpedoes, write that book without regard for what anyone is gonna think. Don't write safe, write big.


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## ironpony (Dec 5, 2018)

Okay, well I don't think I was using rape a mere plot device to kick start things off.  The detective is developed through his experiences with the crimes in the case, so I think it helps the main character through an arc so to speak, at least that is what I intended.  Plus I feel there are themes that are explored from the crimes, rather than having it be just a plot device to kick things off.

But if it is being used merely as a plot device, isn't that kind of a double standard since horrible crimes are used as plot devices all the time?  Murder is used as plot device is many crime stories as well as serial killer stories.  Law and Order: SVU has sex crimes in their cases, and I don't think I have gone much further than that show has.  Even mass murder acts of terrorism have been used as plot devices, so I feel that I haven't really pushed the boundaries compared to other serious stories though, unless I am and I'm not seeing the distinction.


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## luckyscars (Dec 5, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Pony: Don't listen to any of that stuff. If you wanna write anything worth a damn then you need to swing for the fences. Don't write a book the way any of us [hacks] would write it; write something entirely new. Shock, scare, thrill, but don't write ANYTHING predictable enough to be suggested in a writing forum.
> 
> So drink a pot of crack-laced coffee and sit down and write that book like a sociopath. Damn the torpedoes, write that book without regard for what anyone is gonna think. Don't write safe, write big.



Because writing about a code-named gang that goes around raping women for no other reason other than "because they're evildoers" isn't in the least bit predictable, right?



ironpony said:


> Okay, well I don't think I was using rape a mere plot device to kick start things off. The detective is developed through his experiences with the crimes in the case, so I think it helps the main character through an arc so to speak, at least that is what I intended. Plus I feel there are themes that are explored from the crimes, rather than having it be just a plot device to kick things off.



"A plot device, or plot mechanism, is any technique in a narrative used to move the plot forward"

In this case the actual mechanism sounds like a good guy vs bad guy, only you are using rape as the motivation for the bad guy. Which has been done to death and seldom well IMO. 



ironpony said:


> But if it is being used merely as a plot device, isn't that kind of a double standard since horrible crimes are used as plot devices all the time? Murder is used as plot device is many crime stories as well as serial killer stories. Law and Order: SVU has sex crimes in their cases, and I don't think I have gone much further than that show has. Even mass murder acts of terrorism have been used as plot devices, so I feel that I haven't really pushed the boundaries compared to other serious stories though, unless I am and I'm not seeing the distinction.



You have the ghost of a point in the sense that society does have a double standard when it comes to a sexual assault versus, say, just getting beaten up. You want to argue that I'm not going to defend it. I don't really care. All I'm saying is that its not terribly shocking or original anymore (unless you're Ralph I guess). You just named one of a bazillion examples of "hero cop tracking down insatiable rapist(s)" plot.

And it's okay. You don't have to be original. You can make it work. I'm just saying it is risky and the backlash for not handling it properly tends to be more severe because, well, there are a lot of real life sexual assault victims around. Codenaming the guys after different types of fruit or whatever may not be a good idea. Then again, what do I know? Just a hack.


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## ironpony (Dec 5, 2018)

Well they have their reasons though, at least I intended them too.  Do the codenames make any difference now that I have explained what they are up to?


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## Phil Istine (Dec 5, 2018)

Whatever you eventually use for code names may not relevant at this stage, especially if it's delaying the writing.
I suggest using pretty much anything for now (placeholders), preferably some daft words that won't appear elsewhere in the text.  When you have finished the story, you can do 'search and replace' on those words in your word processor so can insert the names without going through the text manually.
If you have written in such a manner that the names help a sentence flow more readily, maybe pick names that have the same syllable count as your placeholders.
The important thing at this stage (probably) is to not let the naming convention delay the rest of the story.


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## Dluuni (Dec 6, 2018)

After asking a question, please do not argue that the answer you got in response is wrong. It is incredibly frustrating.


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## Darkkin (Dec 6, 2018)

From the cynic's gallery:

You do realise that from a literal standpoint this thread comes off sounding a bit like, name my characters because I have not bothered to, (either write scene or develop the undesignated characters.)  I'm going to say what I tell witers who fail to give Questing Guy a name.  It signals a major lack of commitment on the writer's part if they cannot do something as simple as name a character just to give X a frame of reference and a hint of humanisation.

Forum names the characters of author X they no longer belong to the author...because that author had no role in their development.  Author is standing there with an idea and no characters to play the parts because they could not be bother to assert ownership of their idea and follow through.

Sorry, but this feels like someone filling in the answers of their neighbor's homework...

(Stay tuned for the Further Adventures of Randy, Snark, and Asperity...)


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## luckyscars (Dec 6, 2018)

Darkkin said:


> Sorry, but this feels like someone filling in the answers of their neighbor's homework...



10/10 for observation. 

Welcome to the world of the ironpony thread: A magical place where the only thing more pointless than trying to help is scoffing at those who do...


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## Kyle R (Dec 6, 2018)

ironpony said:


> They want to stay secret so I would have to come up with codenames that those characters would decide on.  I could do the dwarfs just not sure if they would use the seven dwarfs particularly.



What codenames _would_ they use, then?

If you asked most writers what codenames their characters would use, they should be able to tell you without a second's hesitation. I know I could. This is because writers should _know their characters_.

Instead of asking strangers online what your characters would call themselves, _ask your characters_. The answers they give you might surprise you. :encouragement:


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## ironpony (Dec 6, 2018)

Dluuni said:


> After asking a question, please do not argue that the answer you got in response is wrong. It is incredibly frustrating.



Oh sorry, are you talking about the codename suggestions or the villain's motive?

Well I could go with the suggestion of the seven dwarfs maybe then.


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## Guard Dog (Dec 6, 2018)

There's always chess pieces... King, Bishop, Knight, Rook, Pawn, etc. 

Add a color to each of those, Black King, White King, Red King... or any combination thereof, and you can have a whole army of arrogant, self-serving, rape-monster criminals. 

Plus you get your colors.




G.D.


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## ironpony (Dec 6, 2018)

Yep that's another idea too.  I was thinking maybe the characters would just go by numbers maybe and they would just leave it at that perhaps.


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## Ralph Rotten (Dec 6, 2018)

luckyscars said:


> Because writing about a code-named gang that goes around raping women for no other reason other than "because they're evildoers" isn't in the least bit predictable, right?




There you go again being a contrary.
A few months ago when I told him to write it right, you argued that it was better if he just wrote the thing.
You spoke of how he would feel bad for the rest of his life if he never wrote the book, and I said it would be worse if he wrote it wrong.
So today I essentially repeated your assertion from months past and it is automatically wrong.

See, you are being a contrary. Whatever I post, you disagree with automatically.


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## luckyscars (Dec 6, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> There you go again being a contrary.
> A few months ago when I told him to write it right, you argued that it was better if he just wrote the thing.
> You spoke of how he would feel bad for the rest of his life if he never wrote the book, and I said it would be worse if he wrote it wrong.
> So today I essentially repeated your assertion from months past and it is automatically wrong.
> ...





Ralph Rotten said:


> There you go again being a contrary.
> A few months ago when I told him to write it right, you argued that it was better if he just wrote the thing.
> You spoke of how he would feel bad for the rest of his life if he never wrote the book, and I said it would be worse if he wrote it wrong.
> So today I essentially repeated your assertion from months past and it is automatically wrong.
> ...



Golly, you remember what I wrote from _months _ago? I don't know whether to be flattered, afraid, pitying or guilty - I seldom remember what you wrote five minutes later, let alone months.

At no point did I say he (is it a he?) shouldn't write this thing. At no point did I say he should. I don't care. I certainly _don't _think they should sit on idea for fear of rejection or whatever, which I'm pretty sure was the deal last time. However _since _the Op mentioned that their story revolves around a gang who rape women AND that his reason for them doing this is "because they are evil" AND that he is considering giving them cute nicknames, I am simply saying that it sounds like he isn't approaching a delicate subject with a whole lot of thought (we both know he isn't) and that there is a better-than-good chance it will backfire (we both know it will). So spare me the platitudes and white-knighting. 

As far as the whole "whatever I post, you disagree with automatically" - I am not going down that hole.  I think I liked a post of yours last night or whatever. So what? I disagree when I think you're wrong. It's not my fault if I don't agree with you very often. It's not yours either. If you feel so hurt by this then use your ignore button or send me a PM. Stop bringing it up in the middle of discussions.


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## Sir-KP (Dec 6, 2018)

Of course I too think of Reservoir Dogs.

The real question is more like why do they have colors as codenames?

If you have a rational answer to that and is told in the story, do it. Otherwise, don't.

Color codename itself is non copyright material and technically you can use it. But in the popular culture, as we can see, we all know Reservoir Dogs is known for that.


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## ironpony (Dec 7, 2018)

luckyscars said:


> Golly, you remember what I wrote from _months _ago? I don't know whether to be flattered, afraid, pitying or guilty - I seldom remember what you wrote five minutes later, let alone months.
> 
> At no point did I say he (is it a he?) shouldn't write this thing. At no point did I say he should. I don't care. I certainly _don't _think they should sit on idea for fear of rejection or whatever, which I'm pretty sure was the deal last time. However _since _the Op mentioned that their story revolves around a gang who rape women AND that his reason for them doing this is "because they are evil" AND that he is considering giving them cute nicknames, I am simply saying that it sounds like he isn't approaching a delicate subject with a whole lot of thought (we both know he isn't) and that there is a better-than-good chance it will backfire (we both know it will). So spare me the platitudes and white-knighting.
> 
> As far as the whole "whatever I post, you disagree with automatically" - I am not going down that hole.  I think I liked a post of yours last night or whatever. So what? I disagree when I think you're wrong. It's not my fault if I don't agree with you very often. It's not yours either. If you feel so hurt by this then use your ignore button or send me a PM. Stop bringing it up in the middle of discussions.



Well I didn't mean to imply that the villains are doing it cause they are evil only in reason.  Someone asked me before why I thought such a villain was acceptable to write, and I responded by saying that other villains in fiction do evil things, so why is rape not on the table as for as evil doings for villains.  But the villains themselves have their own reasons for doing it, it's not just evil only for them.

As for the me wanting cute nicknames, my original question is whether or not color nicknames would be a good idea.  Unless color nicknames are cute though?  I never thought of them as cute if they are.


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## Phil Istine (Dec 17, 2018)

ironpony said:


> Well the reason why I didn't relish it too much is cause I thought if I got too carried away with it, that it would draw attention to itself in a gimmicky way possibly.  And in Reservoir dogs, even though the idea was that they don't know each other, in my story, eveeryone knows each other and they are all really tight.
> 
> The idea was they would use nicknames while talking on walkie talkies and burner phones, in case any police were listening in.  The Seven Dwarfs is a good idea, it's just there is only seven of them where as with my gang I might want more than seven.  I can keep thinking.



More than seven fairly main characters?
Be careful you don't overload a reader.  Probably get away with it if some of them are minor characters.


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## ironpony (Dec 17, 2018)

Well yeah most of them are just henchmen and muscle to back the main villains up, and are not main characters.


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## ironpony (Sep 4, 2019)

Well after coming back to it, I think I might take the suggestion of using the seven dwarfs names, but would there be any copyright infringement issue, if I did?


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## luckyscars (Sep 4, 2019)

ironpony said:


> Well after coming back to it, I think I might take the suggestion of using the seven dwarfs names, but would there be any copyright infringement issue, if I did?



Character names cannot be copyrighted


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## Bayview (Sep 4, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> Character names cannot be copyrighted



Might be trademarked, though? Disney is pretty aggressive with anything associated with their stuff...

I guess there was a fairytale originally, so you could say the names come from that, but, again, Disney.


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## luckyscars (Sep 4, 2019)

Bayview said:


> Might be trademarked, though? Disney is pretty aggressive with anything associated with their stuff...
> 
> I guess there was a fairytale originally, so you could say the names come from that, but, again, Disney.



Funnily enough the names of the seven dwarves (Sleepy, Grumpy, etc) weren’t in the original fairytale. The original fairytale either had different names or no names depending on the version. The names are a Disney creation. I remember watching a documentary about it at some point.

Anyway, US courts have been consistent that to warrant copyright protection, a fictional character must be specifically described and fully developed. Yeah names could fall under character trademarking. In this case, I doubt that would apply, because a generic name (or nickname in this case) isn’t itself trademark-able, a character is, and assuming the OP isn’t actually portraying the dwarf characters but simply using their nicknames as inspiration for his otherwise original bunch of incel rapists or whatever they are, trademarking shouldn’t apply.

Doesn’t stop Disney sending a CAD letter or otherwise being a-holes, though...It’s been known, especially with them. If the OP is concerned they should speak with a lawyer in the field. Or just wait another ten years or so and the movie will likely be public domain anyway.


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## Trollheart (Sep 4, 2019)

I know I'm only new here, but it's still shocking to me to see that ironpony has been (no pun intended) flogging this same horse for over a year now! Has anything been actually written? It does remind me of that quote from O'Brien in "Nineteen Eighty-Four", where he states that Goldstein's book was written by a committee. Kind of feels like the same thing here. Am I the only one who thinks ip has some really deep issues of insecurity as a writer? Hey, I'm just askin'...


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## ironpony (Sep 4, 2019)

Sorry, yes the whole story has been written into a 94 page screenplay so far, just keep wanting to improve it.  I put it away for a while then look at it again with fresh eyes, and keep seeing something I feel I need to make better, but maybe that's not good of me though.


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## Trollheart (Sep 4, 2019)

I'm just saying, you seem very insecure about your plot, which would indicate, to me at any rate, that the chances of you ever finishing it seem remote. I would stop worrying about the details and concentrate on getting it finished.


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## ironpony (Sep 5, 2019)

Okay thanks.  It's just when I show it to people they mention problems and recommend changes.  Even when I make the changes, they recommend problems in those changes, so shouldn't I make changes based on readers assessments, to make it better though?  Or will that just keep going on and on, and I should reach a point where I call it done, no matter what readers say?  It's just last time I did that, the readers acted like I was stubborn, and the story was doomed as a result.


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## Kyle R (Sep 5, 2019)

ironpony said:


> Or will that just keep going on and on, and I should reach a point where I call it done, no matter what readers say?



Bingo!



			
				ironpony said:
			
		

> It's just last time I did that, the readers acted like I was stubborn, and the story was doomed as a result.



Then you learn from it, and apply what you've learned to the writing of your _next_ story. And so on, and so forth. Rinse and repeat. One story after the next, each one better than the last. Always learning. Always growing.

This is how you'll evolve from a struggling writer to a seasoned pro. :encouragement:


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## Trollheart (Sep 5, 2019)

We've all written something and later thought "Damn! I should have done this with it before finishing!" But if you constantly revise, edit, change and add (or subtract) you will get nowhere. Consider a songwriter trying to perfect a song. At some point they have to say "well this is it" and record and release it. Sure, everything can always be better - I've read celebrated books in which I could see how the author could have improved the story - but you can't lock yourself into a never-ending cycle of editing, or you'll end up getting nothing done. And while people can and will suggest things, you don't ALWAYS have to take their advice. Like I said (and sorry if it sounds insulting, not meant to be) you come across as someone who is so lacking in confidence in his writing that he is constantly listening to anyone who will make a comment, and agreeing that they are right and you are wrong. Once in a while, you need to stand up and say "no, this is how I see it. I like it this way. Maybe it'll fail but if it does it'll fail on my terms and nobody else's."

Till you make that decision you're always going to be writing, editing, revising and changing this thing, and the tragedy is, you might have hit upon the perfect plot/angle/character/ending, someone said they didn't like it and you changed it! No, go with your gut, like we all do. You should, by now, if you're any sort of a writer at all, know what works and what doesn't, and not need constant reassurance, questioning or hand-holding.


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## ironpony (Sep 6, 2019)

Good points.  Well I was told that the villains backgrounds and motivations need to be explained more, but I feel that I would have trouble, having a backstory for each one.  A lot of screenplays and movies, will have a group of villains and just leave their motivation for committing crimes, up to the imagination of the viewer, but how do you do that and have the viewer still buy it, without wanting to know all the details?  I feel this is the route problem readers have with the script from what they've told me.


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