# Would my story be unmarketable because of the current situation in the U.S.?



## ironpony (Jun 4, 2020)

I don't mean to sound insensitive to real live events, when I ask this, but I am just asking from a writing standpoint.  I was told that my screenplay, would not be marketable in the current climate, by people I know, and to therefore, stop working on it and just do something else.  The script has police characters stepping outside the law to catch the villains, and because of how the world is now, no one is going to accept a story where the police step outside the law for to achieve a goal.

What do you think?  Is the story now not do-able, because of current real life events?


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## luckyscars (Jun 4, 2020)

If you were releasing it right now I'd say it depends on how you're framing it.

If you are framing it as a critique of the police stepping outside of the law, if you were deeply and thoughtfully exploring the issues involved and the reasons behind those actions and perhaps really offering a unique perspective on law enforcement and the relationship between the police, the public and the law...that could actually be really marketable. There's definitely room right now for a different, more considered, take.

If you are in some sense glorifying police violence, that's probably not going to be something most audiences would have an appetite for, no. Personally, the last thing I would want to read or watch is another fetishization of 'the Thin Blue Line' type stuff. That ship has, for me at least, sailed. It actually sailed some time ago, in my former life I interacted with cops quite regularly and I feel like most of the world is waking up to seeing how the sausage is made. The days of mindless Dirty Harry type 'shoot the punk' trash are, god willing, dwindling while the sheer incompetence and thuggery and, yeah, racism of so many cops is laid bare and given to its own territory for exploration in fiction.

 But...it's early days and I've been wrong before. Lets face it, you've been working on this screenplay for many years now and it doesn't seem like you're any closer to actually completing it, so maybe get it done first and then ask those questions then, based on the here-and-now. Rather than look for yet more excuses not to finish it.


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## ironpony (Jun 4, 2020)

Oh okay.  Well it does have a main cop character who steps outside the law like Dirty Harry, or Jack Bauer to bring the villains down.  I guess I just find that more dramatic and suspenseful, then showing up at their house with an arrest warrant like Law and Order does, but maybe I'm wrong and the Law and Order approach is less cliched?


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## luckyscars (Jun 5, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay.  Well it does have a main cop character who steps outside the law like Dirty Harry, or Jack Bauer to bring the villains down.  I guess I just find that more dramatic and suspenseful, then showing up at their house with an arrest warrant like Law and Order does, but maybe I'm wrong and the Law and Order approach is less cliched?



They're all cliched and you're missing the point, of course. You won't have a problem writing about a cop who steps outside the law. The problem you _might _have is if your approach to that cop is to present his (or her) lack of conformance to the law as being a virtue or to simply gloss over the obvious ramifications.

It's called the 'loose cannon' archetype: It's this notion, fueled by Hollywood, of an 'us v them' mentality and that a police officer is, or should be, some kind of 'angel of holy death'. A figure whose judgment is pretty much always correct and whose motives are always noble and whose job is analogous to insurgent warfare: Always outnumbered, always _targeted, _driven to _unavoidable situations_ where killing is _the only answer_. That's the part that's probably going to be in for a reckoning soon. It arguably has already been discredited.

Movies like Dirty Harry are, ultimately, movies made for pretty stupid people. They have zero relevance to the real world of police work where your average real-life cop graduated high school as a straight C- student and maybe did twenty or so weeks in the academy and whose knowledge of the law is extremely basic, as are their interpersonal skills. These are, above all, normal people who are doing what is, in many ways, a normal, line-level government job. No different to the people at the DMV or IRS or the guys who scan your bags at the airport. Many of them are miserable and poorly trained and disrespected. Many of them aren't all that effective. Most police work isn't especially dangerous, it's statistically far less lethal than - say - commercial fishing or mining, and carries with it extraordinary protections under sovereign immunity statute, meaning a fatal flaw with the premise: Most real cops don't have to step outside the law... _because the law already protects them._

Anyway, this isn't about debating cops, but you need to consider these things, especially if you want to make the story realistic -- double-especially if you want to make it effective in 2020. The messaging behind movies like Dirty Harry is invariably 'the ends justify the means' and 'state sanctioned violence is a-OK' and while there might remain _some _market for that stuff again in the future, it's fairly old hat and likely to be declining as more and more instances of police brutality continue to be captured on film and the inside of the sausage keeps spilling out. The '70's glamour is ending. People probably won't get nearly as aroused by the myth of meatheads-with-magnums anymore. Kind of like what happened to the cowboys. It's old fashioned.

So, if you want to write a good story about cops now, address the current issues that go into policing. First of all, include the fact it is a difficult job to do properly. Not so much because you're getting shot at constantly, but because you have to make decisions about other people's lives that uphold the law while balancing public safety and civil rights. That's hard, especially given the poor training issue. Second of all, include matters of conscience. How does it feel to have the power of life and death at your fingertips? How does that _impact _you, as a cop? What are the moral issues that you have to wrestle with? What are the bureaucratic ones? How does it feel to have people scream "PIG!" at you? How does it impact your personal relationships? What are the effects of having been trained to always assume the worst in people? 

These are just a few of the interesting topics that I would like to see more in police stories. Not stuff about how-to-dupe-or-kill-or-scare-the-shit-outta-some-punk.


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## ironpony (Jun 5, 2020)

Oh okay.  Well as far as making it more realistic, I was told before that realism is my problem and my story would work if it's set in a more comic book fiction type universe though.  So I wasn't really aiming for realism per se, but is that bad not to?


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## SueC (Jun 5, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay.  Well as far as making it more realistic, I was told before that realism is my problem and my story would work if it's set in a more comic book fiction type universe though.  So I wasn't really aiming for realism per se, but is that bad not to?



Ironpony, you're talking about a completely different type of communication, but communication all the same. I agree with absolutely everything LuckyScars wrote and you would do well to listen to that advice. Regardless of the technique you decide on, the issues in society RIGHT NOW are probably going to dictate the success or failure of your efforts for some time to come. It seems that what others have told you - whoever they might be - is that you are not being realistic in your presentations. With that in mind, forging ahead in a different format, but still maintaining your unrealistic story, is likely not going to work either. 

One thought I had while reading Lucky's response is that many police personnel are retired military. In the military, men (and women) are brought down and then back up again in the likeness of a Marine or Navy or Army standard. They are re-created, so to speak, with the ability to follow orders, use weapons and kill the enemy. When they come home, these are the skills that propel them into law enforcement and (in my opinion) this is where we wind up with issues like we have in the news today. 

After 911, few of us could stomach disaster movies about buildings being blow up. I'm still not there. I think it may take at least that long before we can look at movies about cops who stray from their purpose.

Having said that, one of my least favorite stories to read or see on TV, is when there's a female cop who breaks ALL of the rules to get what she sees as important in getting the bad guy, and suffers no consequences for her disrespect of authority, her inability to be part of a team, her unwillingness to acknowledge her dangerous behavior and it's impact on others. I think it sends the message to young people that as long as you get the bad guy, you can do anything you want to anyone else who gets in your way. I can't stand that attitude! So, in your story, where your guy "steps over the line," you would loose me immediately - and anyone else who thinks the way I do.

My suggestion? Give your guy some brains. Give him some morals, some heart, but show the struggle. Show how he feels about taking risks that may hurt someone innocent. 


Just this girl's thoughts.


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## Annoying kid (Jun 5, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> If you are in some sense glorifying police violence, that's probably not going to be something most audiences would have an appetite for, no.



He's not glorifying police violence. He's glorifying rape, by having this slick band of untraceable incel criminal geniuses raping with abandon and clowning law enforcement. So Ironpony should accept that his work was never marketable in terms of mainsteam and always destined to have a cult following, should it ever be finished. That should be enough for him.

But yeah, we might be seeing a downturn if not an outright end of portraying police as heroes. White police anyway.


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## Periander (Jun 5, 2020)

Annoying kid said:


> having this slick band of untraceable incel criminal geniuses raping with abandon and clowning law enforcement.



Stanley Kubrick made a movie about this.  It's called A Clockwork Orange.  Of course, he was an artistic genius so he got away with it.  The film is regarded as a classic.

Who knows?  Maybe you're the next Stanley Kubrick, ironpony.


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## ironpony (Jun 5, 2020)

Oh thanks, I don't know, but of course I hope to do the best job I can.



Annoying kid said:


> He's not glorifying police violence. He's glorifying rape, by having this slick band of untraceable incel criminal geniuses raping with abandon and clowning law enforcement. So Ironpony should accept that his work was never marketable in terms of mainsteam and always destined to have a cult following, should it ever be finished. That should be enough for him.
> 
> But yeah, we might be seeing a downturn if not an outright end of portraying police as heroes. White police anyway.



I don't want to glorify rape at all.  My intention was to condemn the crime, and all the villains get their comeuppance, in the end, so it's meant to be a condemning, or at least that is my intention.


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## Annoying kid (Jun 5, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh thanks, I don't know, but of course I hope to do the best job I can.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't want to glorify rape at all.  My intention was to condemn the crime, and all the villains get their comeuppance, in the end, so it's meant to be a condemning, or at least that is my intention.



Well you are glorifying rape as you're saying these guys are too good to be caught by police who actually follow proper procedure. They're not caught by ingenious investigation, new technology, or great policing, they're caught by some Dirty Harry like thug being unlawful. In other words, you're saying these rapist incels are way more competent than law enforcement.


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## Terry D (Jun 5, 2020)

ironpony said:


> I don't mean to sound insensitive to real live events, when I ask this, but I am just asking from a writing standpoint.  I was told that my screenplay, would not be marketable in the current climate, by people I know, and to therefore, stop working on it and just do something else.  The script has police characters stepping outside the law to catch the villains, and because of how the world is now, no one is going to accept a story where the police step outside the law for to achieve a goal.
> 
> What do you think?  Is the story now not do-able, because of current real life events?



Yes, by all means, stop working on it and pursue another line of work. Five years of begging for others to make every decision for with zero forward movement should be a clue.


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## luckyscars (Jun 5, 2020)

ironpony said:


> I don't want to glorify rape at all.  My intention was to condemn the crime, and all the villains get their comeuppance, in the end, so it's meant to be a condemning, or at least that is my intention.



This is one of those situations where you have to tread carefully.

Your statement " all the villains get their comeuppance in the end" concerns me, because I am not sure you have a good understanding of what is at stake in the subject of rape to begin with. If you don't understand the crime, you probably can't understand the punishment -- the 'comeuppance'.

So what does this cop do? Does he kill all the rapists? If so, that concerns me as well. Rape is not a capital crime and while I can see how the idea of rapists getting killed may be enjoyable to a lot of audiences, I think we are in an age when the answer to every crime isn't extrajudicial execution (and it is extrajudicial even if its a policeman who does it). In other words, what you call 'condemnation' could backfire quite easily because the mood these days isn't to trust in the police's ability to administer justice.

If the cop DOESN'T kill the rapists, then I'm not sure you have a particularly meaningful 'comeuppance' other than 'he arrests them', which is -- of course -- what cops are supposed to do. So maybe it would be helpful for you to describe some ways in which the cop goes outside the law and we can debate the merits and possible perceptions of those?

Ultimately your intent isn't very important. The perception of your intent is what matters.


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## Annoying kid (Jun 5, 2020)

Evidence obtained illegally won't be admissible in court and illegal conduct on the behalf of police, depending on the severity, will ruin the prosecution, as the jury can no longer trust the evidence the police have prepared is legit and isn't tampered. It gives the defence team lot of ammo to create reasonable doubt.

So he'd have to kill them I think.


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## ironpony (Jun 5, 2020)

Oh yes, sorry for not explaining enough.  The cop would have to come up with a plan to get the rapists killed.  It may not be a punishment that fits the crime, but since the villains keep beating the system, I was told before that instead of making the villain dumb enough to all of a sudden make a mistake, that instead I should have the MC go above and beyond to get the villain rather than making the villain more dumb.  But since the villains have beaten the system and I should have the MC go above and beyond, the only to stop the villains is to kill them therefore it seems.


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## luckyscars (Jun 5, 2020)

Annoying kid said:


> Evidence obtained illegally won't be admissible in court and illegal conduct on the behalf of police, depending on the severity, will ruin the prosecution, as the jury can no longer trust the evidence the police have prepared is legit and isn't tampered. It gives the defence team lot of ammo to create reasonable doubt.
> 
> So he'd have to kill them I think.



Depending on the evidence, proving it was obtained illegally can be quite difficult and juries (in the US at least) have a long track record of giving law enforcement the benefit of the doubt. It obviously 100% depends though, which is why I asked ironpony to provide more details.



ironpony said:


> Oh yes, sorry for not explaining enough.  The cop would have to come up with a plan to get the rapists killed.  It may not be a punishment that fits the crime, but since the villains keep beating the system, I was told before that instead of making the villain dumb enough to all of a sudden make a mistake, that instead I should have the MC go above and beyond to get the villain rather than making the villain more dumb.  But since the villains have beaten the system and I should have the MC go above and beyond, the only to stop the villains is to kill them therefore it seems.



Again, this comes down to framing. A really good angle on this would be the idea of exploring the moral gray area which police can find themselves in.

Hypothetically, let's pretend we are talking about somebody who is objectively lethal to human life. A Jim Jones or Jeffrey Dahmer type of criminal: Your archetypal demonic psychopath. I am not sure if that is who your 'villains' are, but let's say that they are. In that kind of story, a police officer may find themselves in a situation where if they don't bend or break the law, they may reasonably believe people would be seriously hurt or die. In that kind of situation, exploring the conflict between doing the right thing legally and morally may be really good ground.

That is quite different to the traditional noir-type police story, of course. The noir-type police story 'cop hero' simply uses violence and deviation from procedure and law as their go-to. They are corrupted from the outset, and their tendancy is toward violence and 'eye for an eye' type justice. That's the kind of thing you have to watch out for. That's where your story risks being an apologetic for police misconduct.

I don't know your story very well, but I find it VERY difficult to stomach the idea of a cop who is intent on stopping rapists through killing them. For one thing, rape is not murder and no penal code I am aware of in the western world considers it a capital crime. So, right off the bat, your cop is already deviating from legal norms. Why? How many people are these rapists attacking? What is the imminent threat level here that makes them equivalent to, say, a Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy or Osama Bin Laden that could possibly justify that?

 If you want to introduce some extenuating circumstances there, say maybe they are child rapists or inclined toward torture or murder, that _may_ push the needle sufficiently to make the cop(s) sympathetic, but as it stands, I have a tough time with the idea of justifying a cop who is so incompetent at their job (to catch the rapists) that the 'only way is to kill them'. This just doesn't speak to a cop who wasn't already a loose cannon to begin with. Why are they so willing to deprive a criminal of due process? Because they're frustrated at their inability to do it 'the right way'? No, fuck that. That's the shit that, ultimately, ends in George Floyd cases.


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## Annoying kid (Jun 5, 2020)

As I understand it, the extenuating circumstances is this cop himself was raped by these dudes (they're raping everybody), so now its personal.


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## ironpony (Jun 5, 2020)

Yes the main character is one of the victims which gives him that extra drive.

Well the evidence that the main character is after is that he finds out that the leader of the villains has leverage evidence on all the other members of the group.  He has this as a 'dead man's switch', so that if anything happens to him from his own group, the evidence will go to the police.

So the main character finds out about that evidence, but this might not be enough to get a conviction on each member, because in order for video evidence to be admissible in court, the person who made it has to testify.  And if the main character finds all this leverage evidence, the villain is not going to want to testify to it and deny it.  So that means the MC can just use the evidence as an excuse to go arrest them, which is enough for an arrest, but he will feel compelled to kill them if the evidence won't stick later in court.

Unless I should just write it so that it does, if that's better, and the audience really does not want to see a cop MC murder?


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## indianroads (Jun 5, 2020)

Just write your story and worry about marketing later. Chances are that the current fiasco will pass before you publish anyway.

Your work will either find an audience, or it won't. Then hit the ground running and write another novel. Lather, rinse, repeat.


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## luckyscars (Jun 5, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Unless I should just write it so that it does, if that's better, and the audience really does not want to see a cop MC murder?



I don't think 'now it's personal' is going to fly as an excuse right now. Of course, it all depends on how you write it.

Again, a rape victim murdering their murderer _after the rape has happened_ is NOT something that is generally considered acceptable. It would be a mitigating circumstance, possibly enough to drop the charges down, but ultimately it's still a crime and there is a reason why we, as a society, don't execute rapists. 

The appropriate response to being raped is to prosecute, not to "take the law into your own hands". It doesn't matter how damaged you are by it, murder and rape are not the same. Even if they were, the response to being murdered wouldn't be to murder the (alleged) murderer -- this is why vigilantes end up in jail. So you have an issue of the punishment not fitting the crime, certainly not legally.

I hate to bring this back to the law because I know you're approaching this from an extra-legal perspective and it's really about the cop wanting 'justice' (though apparently they only are driven into outrage when they are personally affected?) but this doesn't seem to actually make sense if you want the audience to think the cop is justified. Again, this isn't the seventies, people think more critically about the police killing people. 

- You don't have a case for imminent threat, the cop isn't watching the rapist raping or about to rape anybody when they kill them
- The cop is not following the legal penalty for rape under any jurisdiction by administering the death penalty over sexual assault
- The cop seems mainly motivated by their outrage at how conniving the alleged rapists are. Which is...dumb. Criminals evade justice, that's why they're criminals. 
- The cop's motivations, unfortunately, seem mostly selfish. They had to personally be raped in order to build up the animosity needed to kill the rapist. That may be a reflection of how people actually are, but it's not a sympathetic position. If this wasn't _him _who had been raped but, say, his child and his attitude was 'fuck my career, these bastards are going down' that would play better. As it is, he sounds like a loose cannon.
- You haven't given sufficient reasoning as to why the criminals would evade justice. NO sound conviction rests on a single testimony or absence of it. There needs to be other evidence. Why are they getting away with it? If there's a good reason, such as a corrupted or incompetent jury, that may work, but this isn't how it works.
- If anything, a more sympathetic position here would be if the cop got raped and _in spite of that _he still didn't kill the alleged criminals because of his belief in justice and his personal ethics as a police officer. But you're making this a garden variety revenge tale which isn't terribly thought-provoking, especially when the MC is a cop.


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## ironpony (Jun 5, 2020)

Oh okay, well there are other works of fiction where people have committed murder of of revenge for being raped, so how did other works of fiction do it compared to mine though?

As to how the criminals have been evading justice so far, they have been getting rid of all the evidence of the crimes after, or at least that is how I wrote it.  I wouldn't say the MC is being completely selfish though in the sense that killing the villains will prevent them from getting away with future crimes, and future victims, so he is keeping the future victims in mind though, isn't he?


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## luckyscars (Jun 5, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, well there are other works of fiction where people have committed murder of of revenge for being raped, so how did other works of fiction do it compared to mine though?



Those stories only work when the person who is out for revenge isn't in a position of power to begin with -- i.e a police officer. If you look at every 'revenge story' that works the person seeking revenge is always at some kind of disadvantage. 'Kill Bill' worked because Uma Thurman is a woman who battles a whole gang of assasins. 'True Grit' worked because it was about a 14 year old girl who teams up with a battle hardened gunfighter but nevertheless still is at an extreme advantage against a posse. You have to consider power dynamics and I doubt you have. The police officer would need to face either a gang that somehow is more powerful than the police force are (unlikely, unless its a dystopia) OR have the inherent power of the law taken away somehow: Perhaps he's not a cop anymore? Maybe nobody believes him so he's 100% on his own against this gang? Stuff like that. 

Grasping at straws comes to mind, unfortunately.



> As to how the criminals have been evading justice so far, they have been getting rid of all the evidence of the crimes after, or at least that is how I wrote it.  I wouldn't say the MC is being completely selfish though in the sense that killing the villains will prevent them from getting away with future crimes, and future victims, so he is keeping the future victims in mind though, isn't he?



Was he truly concerned with killing them before he was raped? 

I don't know, maybe he isn't selfish, but he certainly sounds like this is more about him being angry over his own humiliation more than about the threat to society. Which is fine, of course, but it may not move the needle much into the audience feeling sympathy for him for administering extrajudicial punishment based on how evil he thinks they are. This is not the climate for 'cop justice'.

I'll withhold much comment on it, but it's not that easy to get rid of evidence, either. That's why it's evidence.


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## ironpony (Jun 5, 2020)

Oh okay, well he wasn't wanting to kill them before what happened to him, no.  I thought that in an example like Kill Bill though, the woman is a government assassin though, and the government she works for has more power than the average police force though, or am I wrong?  Or when for example, James Bond and Jack Bauer are out revenge, they work for higher ups in government than the police, don't they?  So I thought they had more power.


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## ironpony (Jun 5, 2020)

Annoying kid said:


> Well you are glorifying rape as you're saying these guys are too good to be caught by police who actually follow proper procedure. They're not caught by ingenious investigation, new technology, or great policing, they're caught by some Dirty Harry like thug being unlawful. In other words, you're saying these rapist incels are way more competent than law enforcement.



Oh well it just kind of turned out by happenstance as I was writing it that they are too good to get caught, because since they have been getting away with their crimes for the first two thirds of the story, I couldn't really think of a mistake they would make in the last third that would get them all caught.  So it's not like I chose for them to be so good, they couldn't get caught, it just turned out that way when I wrote it, in which case, the MC now has go above and beyond the system to get neutralize them as a threat now.  I don't mean to say that law enforcement is incompetent, it's just that they have play by all these rules that limits them.  They are not incompetent, just limited, by things like 4th ammendment rules, hearsay rules, etc.

So therefore, in order to get the villains, the MC is just going to have to break the rules I guess?

I originally tried to write it so that the cops did get evidence on them to convict them, but every piece of evidence I came up with, the readers said there was a legal problem with it.  So eventually the readers tell me , well if every piece of evidence is going to have a legal problem why not just make the MC kill them out of revenge and wanting to stop them from committing future crimes instead.  Unless that is not a good dramatic ending, especially if every piece of evidence turns up non-convictable?  

Plus the readers liked the idea of revenge thinking it was more dramatic.  But now it's not, because now revenge by police is wrong.  So I feel like I took the revenge suggestion, but now all of a sudden it's dark, once I revise it.  What changed?


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## luckyscars (Jun 6, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, well he wasn't wanting to kill them before what happened to him, no.  I thought that in an example like Kill Bill though, the woman is a government assassin though, and the government she works for has more power than the average police force though, or am I wrong?  Or when for example, James Bond and Jack Bauer are out revenge, they work for higher ups in government than the police, don't they?  So I thought they had more power.



They don't have more power in the context of the story, though. This goes back to framing. Kill Bill works because irrespective of The Bride's hidden strengths she is nonetheless outnumbered by her adversaries. James Bond, Jack Bauer -- same deal. 

It can be like that with your cop as well, but that's why you have to make a case why he doesn't just get the entire department to bring the hammer down on the gang OR that the gang is just way more powerful. Basically, you have to make it so that this cop _isn't in a normal police situation. _Because in normal police situations the gangs are never more powerful than law enforcement, the police are the paragon of government power and domination, and that's why there are protesters out smashing shit up right now.


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## ironpony (Jun 6, 2020)

Oh okay, well in my story the police are only allowed to tail a suspect for so long till they need to legally back up if the case turns up dry.  So the MC takes matters into his own hands, once there is nothing more the police can do, or at least that is how I have it so far.


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## luckyscars (Jun 6, 2020)

Periander said:


> Stanley Kubrick made a movie about this.  It's called A Clockwork Orange.  Of course, he was an artistic genius so he got away with it.  The film is regarded as a classic.
> 
> Who knows?  Maybe you're the next Stanley Kubrick, ironpony.



Small nitpick: Kubrick didn't write the story, it's a novel. It's also obvious satire that is intended as a social commentary on an era of juvenile delinquency that is extremely different from today and would have an entirely different affect on a modern audience. A Clockwork Orange was considered beyond shocking when it came out. In the post _human centipede _world it would barely register as extreme and would, therefore, not be particularly effective.

There probably is room for a modern version of 'Clockwork, insofar as a movie that sets out to offer social commentary on today's youth's amorality and apathy. But it won't be based around gangs who go around committing mass rape. For one thing, most young people are far more cognizant regarding sexual consent issues than most older people, so if anything it's older people who are less morally grounded on that particular subject. 

A modern version of Clockwork Orange would probably center around a gang who partook in a lot of TikTok pranks, social media bullying, and video games.


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## Annoying kid (Jun 6, 2020)

I don't see how they're destroying all the evidence when medical examination of the victim is a cornerstone of the evidence. So if theyre leaving victims alive like this cop, they have lots of evidence. They probably have their genetic material on file. And if any of these guys have had any of their information on file for prior offences, they're caught. And if they do ever get caught, they'd just reference their DNA. That's slam dunk evidence in court. 

So they're a bunch of guys who meet up online with no prior offences on file - but what are the odds of meeting several like minded guys of such an extreme mindset before you meet someone online who doesn't have that mindset, who would report you. Most people aren't depraved rapists who would actually go out and do it IRL. 

Sounds to me what would really happen is what happened to Armin Meiwes., the cannibal of Rottenburg. He tried this very thing - looking for like minded people willing to share his fantasy - and he found one guy, but then the next dude he tried to get reported him and he got caught. Online, odds are, you're going to come across someone with a conscience. After all, they're strangers, with no prior offences no less. So maybe there's something to their meeting that I don't understand, but there needs to be more here, as its not very credible. 

When I say it glorifies rape, it comes across as very artificially constructed in order to have this rampant raping. And if someone's raping cops in America, theyre not gonna stop until they get you. It would be like a cop killer to them. The idea that this dudes going to have to go outside the law as some lone wolf, loose cannon is kind of absurd, because the rest of the department would be so eager to get them, hell you'd get the FBI on this.


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## ironpony (Jun 6, 2020)

Oh okay.  Well they clean up the DNA off the victims, or that is how I wrote it so far.  None of their DNA is on file.  As for as glorifying rape goes, that was not my intention.  In other works of fiction, you see a mass amount of criminals committing other crimes, but that doesn't mean that it's glorified though.  For example, in the show 24, there are terrorist organizations going around committing acts of terrorism, but that doesn't mean the writers are glorifying terrorism.  So can I make the reader see it from that type of approach, just because there is a group of characters committing the crime, the story is not glorifying it?

The premise of how they meet might not sound credible when I explain it as a premise.  Other readers thought this too, they thought the premise was too silly.  But I think that them meeting and how it goes from one point to the other in the plot with them committing crimes, makes enough sense to be credible when you read it, I hope.  But you see other works of fiction, where a group of people will meet and start a strange club or cult.  In Fight Club for example, a bunch of guys meet to fight and it eventually leads to be more crimes of terrorism.

A Clockwork Orange is another example of course.  So I thought that criminals forming a strange secret group like that could work, if written well enough hopefully?

As for the cop being raped, even though the police would want to do something about it, there is not really anything they can do without stepping outside the law.   I asked about this before on here, when writing about, and the responses I got was that it would be the cops word against the rapist, and that's not enough to get search warrants or wire taps, so it wouldn't be enough and there wouldn't be anything the police could do, or at least that is what I was told on here, when I asked about it, way before.

But I was also told to write it on here, so that the cop is too ashamed to report the rape.  This also makes it so the cop can stay on the case, because since he is too ashamed to report, no one will take him off the case, as a conflict of interest problem then.  He knows that if he reports it, that he doesn't have enough evidence for search warrants or wire taps, since the assailant got rid of the forensic evidence, so it's only his word against someone else's.  So since he knows it won't go anywhere, he also figures, what's the use, and figures he might as well stay on the case to get more.

Now it's true that the rest of the police in the story are working on it, but they are not coming up with anything because they cannot get any search warrants or wire taps.  So the MC decides to some wire tapping himself to find out more, and finds out a lot more because he does.  So he of course has to find a way to get them another way, that the other police legally will not.


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## Periander (Jun 6, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> Small nitpick: Kubrick didn't write the story, it's a novel.



Oh, I think I knew that!  Anthony Burgess wrote it, didn't he?  Yeah, the first thing that came to my mind was the movie which I had seen before.  Need to pick up that book sometime - thanks for the clarification.


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## Annoying kid (Jun 6, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay.  Well they clean up the DNA off the victims, or that is how I wrote it so far.



That won't cut it. They'd need to wear condoms and dispose of it some place police would never find it. 


> In other works of fiction, you see a mass amount of criminals committing other crimes, but that doesn't mean that it's glorified though.  For example, in the show 24, there are terrorist organizations going around committing acts of terrorism, but that doesn't mean the writers are glorifying terrorism.



Yes, but the terrorists aren't contrived. Thats what makes it seem like you're glorifying rape. These incels are contrived in terms of how they met, and impossibly good. It also sounds like it barely matters how you get there, long as you get to the rape. These guys have no prior convictions and now they're suddenly so slick they can evade law enforcement at every turn, leave no evidence, and so bold they'd rape a cop - a man with a gun. And the police have no ability to do anything useful, forcing the cop to go rogue and kill them. 

If you're going to glorify the villains like that you may as well just admit it. 



> In Fight Club for example, a bunch of guys meet to fight and it eventually leads to be more crimes of terrorism.



If those crimes were rape, do you think one of the people in that club would have objected or reported them? What you're making is people with the whiny, entitled, incel mindset of Elliot Rodger, but with the skills and professional expertise of the most hardened of career criminals. As they beat the system.  



> As for the cop being raped, even though the police would want to do something about it, there is not really anything they can do without stepping outside the law.



So one rogue cop can track them down, but several organizations can't? And then FBI can't tear apart all their computers and digital media for evidence? Is it all encrypted to the point where even the FBI can't get it? It's not possible for them to do surveillance on them and observe them over a period of time? They just know they're being followed or observed and how to lose them, through a high speed chase no doubt. These incels with whats absolutely a mindset associated with sad basement dwellers, are all of a sudden so good are they? Thats what I mean. It doesn't matter how you get there, you just want the rape. That's glorifying it. 

If the MC knows where they are the sequence would go like this: Police observe and stake them out taking photos and videos of their comings and goings. When they go out to commit their next crime they get tailed and busted. Once they get caught breaking into someone's home with condoms and weapons and masks and all that shit, then their place gets searched, they find all their digital messages and anything else required. Then they take them in for interrogation, and use technique after technique on them for hours until they break and they get a confession. At that point the defence pleads guilty and they get life in prison. The end. Thats how it would realistically go without these incels having fantasy abilities to evade justice.


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## ironpony (Jun 6, 2020)

Oh okay, and yes they do wear condoms of course.  But don't audiences want villains that are challenges though?  I thought a challenging villain was a good thing in writing.

Well the reason why the rogue cop is getting further, is because he is willing to do things that the other police are not.  If the other police are not authorized a wire tapping warrant for example, the MC is going to wire tape to find out more, and not listen to the judge.  Where as the other cops listen to the judge.  So it's not that the other cops are incompetent, they just choose to listen to the judge, unlike the MC.

And the reason why the police cannot get any information from following around the suspects they have, they only have to suspects, and the rest of the group has told those two suspects not to participate in any more crimes, since they are being watched.  So they are laying low and not doing anything to incriminate themselves to the rest of the group, since they know they are being watched.  So therefore, that is a dead end for police.  And that is why the MC wants to do things, the other police refuse to do, like wire tap, and other things.  So I thought it made sense that way.


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## Annoying kid (Jun 6, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, and yes they do wear condoms of course.  But don't audiences want villains that are challenges though?  I thought a challenging villain was a good thing in writing.
> 
> Well the reason why the rogue cop is getting further, is because he is willing to do things that the other police are not.  If the other police are not authorized a wire tapping warrant for example, the MC is going to wire tape to find out more, and not listen to the judge.  Where as the other cops listen to the judge.  So it's not that the other cops are incompetent, they just choose to listen to the judge, unlike the MC.
> 
> And the reason why the police cannot get any information from following around the suspects they have, they only have to suspects, and the rest of the group has told those two suspects not to participate in any more crimes, since they are being watched.  So they are laying low and not doing anything to incriminate themselves to the rest of the group, since they know they are being watched.  So therefore, that is a dead end for police.  And that is why the MC wants to do things, the other police refuse to do, like wire tap, and other things.  So I thought it made sense that way.



Why all this talk of wire taps? Just stake them out until they try to commit the next crime. It's over once the MC/police knows who they are.


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## ironpony (Jun 6, 2020)

Well the reason they are not committing their next crime is because they are know they are being watched.   That's why the MC goes the extra mile with wire tapping, to find out more, since they are not committing crimes.  Plus at that point the police only have two suspects to watch, and the MC still has to find out who the others are, since he is willing to do things to find out that the police are not.

But maybe I am missing something.  When you say it's over once the MC and police know who they are, why is it over so quickly?  Doesn't there still have to be a process to locating the other members of the group, and still a process on getting evidence to get them as well?  It's not just over, just like that, is it?

Even take say a movie like The Silence of the Lambs for example.  A serial killer is on the loose, but Clarice Starling is handling a lot of the case herself, and she brings the killer down all by herself, even though it was a national investigation matter.  So can it not be done therefore?

But there are other works of fiction where the main character has an idea to get the villains, because legally their hands are tied, so the MC does it himself.  So in comparing to other works of fiction, am I really breaking any rules therefore?

But also, in fiction shouldn't the villains be more challenging then in real life?  Sure in real life, they would get caught a lot easier if this happened.  But readers don't want that in fiction, do they?  Past thrillers suggest that readers like a challenging villain.


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## ironpony (Jun 6, 2020)

Am I being too stubborn for not wanting to make changes though?  It's just I have already made so many changes and tried to please everyone, that I don't know if I can keep doing it though.   Is that stubborn of me?


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## Annoying kid (Jun 6, 2020)

If the MC - the victim - can identify his attackers and knows who they are, no judge on Earth is going to deny a warrant for surveillance and searching.


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## ironpony (Jun 6, 2020)

Oh okay, it's just when I asked about it before, on here, I was told that the police may not have enough to go when it's one person's word against the others.   Here is one of the quotes on here before, from when I asked about it:



InTheThirdPerson said:


> Well, a couple of things here: The police are only going to investigate a crime of this nature if it's reported to them. So this would all depend on your male character's willingness to report it. If a police investigation isn't necessary for this aspect of your story, then your simplest solution is to have it not be reported. This would also be the most realistic, because statistically, men are far less likely to report sexual assault. There would have to be some really compelling reason for him to come forward.
> 
> 
> Also, if your male character is a cop or pretty close with cops, he would very well know the investigation procedures. Therefore he would know that the less evidence that exists, the less this crime can/will be investigated, and that it would be even less likely to obtain a conviction.
> ...



Unless that is incorrect and they would still do a search of the person's house?

The thing is, I don't feel I could keep making changes, and I already took the advice given to me before on how to write, so now you are saying to write it a completely different way.  So how does one know, which is the right way to write it, when other give completely different advice on how to do so?


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## luckyscars (Jun 6, 2020)

Search warrants are issued on a case-by-case basis, based on credible suspicion. I don't know why you think it's a binary they will/they wont. If the victim's accusation is credible and there is a good reason why searching their home would be needed, that will result in a search warrant. If the victim's accusation is not credible or there's no need to search their home, that will not. 

Search warrants are not charges, are not custodial sentences, so the standard of 'evidence' to get a warrant to look through somebody's bedroom is fairly low. On the other hand, there is a standard nevertheless. Malicious or plain unnecessary violations of privacy can and do result in lawsuits after-the-fact when the person being searched feels their rights were violated. Usually it's some bad PR and an out-of-court settlement, at best, which is paid for by the city not by an individual. Basically, a small risk for a department to take if they are reasonable sure the search will yield results.

This thread has long since deviated from 'Would my story be unmarketable because of the current situation in the U.S.?' and is reentering the thick soup of your specific story which nobody here has read in full.

I don't say this very often, in fact I don't think I've ever said it, but I don't think you should continue with writing. You seem to not grasp the mindset behind 'fiction' and it's been years. I forgot just how tedious these posts had the tendency to become.


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## ironpony (Jun 6, 2020)

Oh okay.  What am I not grasping when it comes to the mindset of fiction though?


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## Annoying kid (Jun 6, 2020)

It sounds to me like he doesn't need to be police to begin with. Why have him do wire tapping and all that investigative fluff if he's just going to blow their heads off anyway.


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## ironpony (Jun 6, 2020)

Oh well he needs to find out who the others are first, since he only has two suspects at that point. But what about what InTheThirdPerson said though, as to why the police might not have enough evidence.  Were his/her points correct in anyway, or no?



InTheThirdPerson said:


> Well, a couple of things here: The police are only going to investigate a crime of this nature if it's reported to them. So this would all depend on your male character's willingness to report it. If a police investigation isn't necessary for this aspect of your story, then your simplest solution is to have it not be reported. This would also be the most realistic, because statistically, men are far less likely to report sexual assault. There would have to be some really compelling reason for him to come forward.
> 
> Also, if your male character is a cop or pretty close with cops, he would very well know the investigation procedures. Therefore he would know that the less evidence that exists, the less this crime can/will be investigated, and that it would be even less likely to obtain a conviction.
> 
> ...


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## Annoying kid (Jun 6, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh well he needs to find out who the others are first, since he only has two suspects at that point. But what about what InTheThirdPerson said though, as to why the police might not have enough evidence.  Were his/her points correct in anyway, or no?



If he considers them dead men walking anyway and doesn't care about following the law, he might as well torture the information out if those two. His points might be correct if nobody reports the crimes and if the MC keeps all his information to himself. But then why does he need to be Police in the first place then. What does that do for a MC whos a vigilante who doesnt think the law works anyway.

So concerned your story would be unmarketable cos he's police? Then dont make him police. Story works the same without it.


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## ironpony (Jun 6, 2020)

Oh well him being police allows him to find out about certain things in the case, that normally the police would have access to, and he has police connections he can use to his advantage, with those connections, not knowing what his true intentions are.  Plus he only goes into revenge mode in the last half, where as in the first, have, he become associated with the rest of the plot points, through the investigation.

He could torture information out of them, but then that gives the group a warning that some psycho is after them, where as he thought it would be better to just illegal spy on them through wire taps and computer hacking.  That way, he can find out more, without alerting them that someone is onto them.  Or at least I thought that made sense.  Also if the two suspects are also under police surveillance, but they are not committing any crimes and laying low, if he were to go torture them, the other police that are spying on them, would see the torturer break into their place, and than that would could risk getting himself caught by the other police, wouldn't it?


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## Annoying kid (Jun 6, 2020)

Oh I forgot your incel gang has omniscience. And just know when they're being watched, and just know that two of them not showing up must mean a psycho is after them. 

Do you really need to be police to have police connections? Just have his bestie be police. You get the same information without the currently unpopular idea of police "heroes" being homicidal vigilantes.


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## ironpony (Jun 6, 2020)

Oh well it's just him being a cop allows me not to have to write a whole bunch of extra scenes for example.  If he is investigating with the other cops, he is in on the loop.  If I write it so that he has to get the info from a bestie, that really could needlessly complicate the plot more.  Plus he is will be less involved in the police part of the plot than and less for him to do as a main character.

So I thought it was probably better, to get the reader to want to accept the police vigilante angle, rather than trying to complicate the plot more by going a different route.  Unless it's not?

As for the MC torturing them, is he suppose to kill them after being tortured you are saying?  But they are currently being watched by the other police in the department though, so they would see that someone broke into their house, if the MC went to do that, wouldn't they?

Plus if the MC kills them, their deaths turn up on the news, and then the other villains see it, then they have been alerted that some psycho is killing them off, doesn't it?

I guess I just feel I need to understand why having a vigilante cop in a story is so bad.  I just watched the movie The Departed again not too long and that movie ends with a cop making a vigilante like decision.  And that movie was a hit and won best picture.  So I guess I am just wondering why it's so bad in fiction, that I have to dismantle almost the entire plot and have to rework it.  What rule am I breaking when other fiction has done it?


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## Annoying kid (Jun 6, 2020)

ironpony said:


> I guess I just feel I need to understand why having a vigilante cop in a story is so bad.  I just watched the movie The Departed again not too long and that movie ends with a cop making a vigilante like decision.  And that movie was a hit and won best picture.  So I guess I am just wondering why it's so bad in fiction, that I have to dismantle almost the entire plot and have to rework it.  What rule am I breaking when other fiction has done it?



1) This topic was your concern in the first place, so you must have some understanding of why a vigilante cop could be problematic in 2020. 

2) If any of these changes require you to "dismantle almost the entire plot" then don't change it. Simple as that.


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## ironpony (Jun 6, 2020)

Oh okay.  Yes you're right I am concerned since some people said it's a problem now.  However, a couple of other people got back to me today, and they said that if I portray the police honorably, that it will have a reverse affect and that no one is going to want plots about honest police anymore, because it's 2020.  What do you think?  Could rewriting the police as honest may have a reverse affect and readers do not want that either perhaps?


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## Annoying kid (Jun 6, 2020)

Just target it toward right wing conservatives. They love police power fantasies regardless of what the police do IRL to people.


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## ironpony (Jun 6, 2020)

Oh okay.  Well I am considering perhaps an alternate ending where the MC just makes the arrest and it hope it sticks if that's better.

But as for whether or not the police would search the house based on the cop's accusation, what items would they look for if they got a search warrant?


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## Annoying kid (Jun 7, 2020)

Computers, phones, masks, usb drives, photos, documents, weapons, drugs, any "trophies", and shoes, to  compare with shoe prints at crime scenes.


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## ironpony (Jun 7, 2020)

Oh okay, well none of the villains take their materials to their homes that are addressed on paper though.  So they won't find anything there and still be at a dead end though, wouldn't they?

Are you sure that the police will get a warrant based for all these items, based on one person's accusation?  I have a couple of friends who were sexually assaulted and reported it, and the judges did not get search warrants in their cases.


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## luckyscars (Jun 7, 2020)

ironpony said:


> I have a couple of friends who were sexually assaulted and reported it, and the judges did not get search warrants in their cases.



I'm genuinely interested as to why the rapist thing is so important to you. It can't just be 'because it's interesting' -- why is it interesting?

I guess I'm sort of perplexed by this entire project and have been for awhile because it sounds like it mostly involves things you don't really know anything about (the law, police work, sexual assault) and you seem extremely willing to bend just about any facet of the plot, characters and story depending on how you perceive the feedback to be...and yet you seem to be passionate about...something. 

What exactly are you trying to achieve with the project? It might be a good place to start, with all these questions. What I mean is, what are you expecting/hoping your audience to come away with from this movie? Are you just looking for a mindless thrill? if so, you can basically do what you want so long as it's violent enough. Are you looking to say something about how sexual assault impacts its victims? If so, you should probably consider certain things, like the fact your cop-hero's reaction to his sexual assault seems to be to go full 'eye for an eye' and in a manner that is violent, which isn't actually the way most rape victims react... and _even if it were _I'm not sure it's either original or especially challenging morally or intellectually.

We all know the natural reaction to being hurt is to hurt. The question is, should it be? Isn't that sort of a cop out (pun intended) being that the guy is a cop and therefore naturally empowered to do extremely violent things to begin with? It's not like any of this is really charting new ground. It's not like your hero is fighting against the odds. All known rapists get caught because rape is a crime from which it is almost impossible to avoid leaving evidence for. The whole situation, of a gang who go around raping people and somehow get away with it, doesn't make sense given the other parameters you have set yourself.


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## ironpony (Jun 7, 2020)

Oh well it's difficult to put into words why I find it interesting, I just do for some reason.  What I wanted to achieve was just writing a good screenplay crime thriller.  I didn't intend for it to be a mindless thriller, because you still have to think to get through the plot, so it's a thinking thriller, I would say.

I guess it's a revenge thriller, which has been done before, but I've liked those, if done well.  So it's hard for me to describe why I think it would be interesting, I just do.

As for the villains not leaving behind any evidence, well I just need to write it so they don't at least, for a feature length screenplay.  The villains can get caught of course, I just need the story to go on for long enough before they do.  But should I write it differently to make them not being caught until it's over, more believably?


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## Annoying kid (Jun 7, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh well it's difficult to put into words why I find it interesting



Are you saying you like portraying rape but you don't understand why? Cos that sounds weird.


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## ironpony (Jun 7, 2020)

No I don't like portraying rape in general, just in this particular story, where I found it interesting.


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## luckyscars (Jun 7, 2020)

ironpony said:


> No I don't like portraying rape in general, just in this particular story, where I found it interesting.



Have you considered having the rapists AND rape victims both being male? Would you find that equally interesting? If not, why not?


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## ironpony (Jun 8, 2020)

Yeah I'd find that interesting.  For the story, the victims are both male and female, but does that make it worse or better?


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## Annoying kid (Jun 8, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Yeah I'd find that interesting.  For the story, the victims are both male and female, but does that make it worse or better?



You're going to have to find out why you find it interesting because if it ever goes anywhere you will be asked. I guarantee it.


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## ironpony (Jun 8, 2020)

Yes you're right.  Well I guess my answer is, is that I haven't seen many movies with rape and revenge type stories that I liked.  I like the idea of it, but haven't found a lot of movies done it well, so I wanted to write a different take on it, eliminating the weaknesses I have seen done in other movies.  I don't know if that sounds kind of egotistical to say, but my reason was I like the idea, but haven't seen it done in a way I liked, and wanted to put my own spin on it therefore.  But is that not the answer I should give, when asked?


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## luckyscars (Jun 9, 2020)

I had a friend at law school who probably could have specialized in any field she wanted and probably made a lot of money and she chose to do Family Law and mainly handles divorces, spouse abuse, that kind of shit. I never understood why anybody would want to use their law credentials to handle divorces day in, day out. It sounds deeply depressing and unpleasant. 

Her reason was that she had been a child of divorce herself and been a victim of her mother's poor legal representation, meaning that after her father left she and her siblings grew up in relative poverty. The result of that seemingly unrelated decision meant that she had to work her way through college while one of her brothers ended up in jail after getting into drugs. Essentially, she recognized how even something ugly and unattractive like divorce proceedings extends much further than just what it is.

I suspect that when you say 'rape is interesting' you're not really talking about actual rape -- hopefully not. So that's kind of what I'm getting at with this 'Why do you want to write this story?' question. Because it CAN'T just be because you find rape interesting, surely. There must be something that you're trying to get to that goes deeper than rape...right? So what is it? The reason it is important is because how you engage with that 'deeper meaning' will effectively determine your decisions and how they impact your audience and you, when the dominoes fall. What is the big idea with this? What are you interested in?


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## ironpony (Jun 9, 2020)

Oh well, I just like crime thriller stories, and I thought that rape is a more terrorizing crime compared to what I usually see, so I thought it was the most compelling one, to read about in a story, since it's more dramatic than most crimes.  I don't mean real rape is interesting, just fictional rape in a fictional crime thriller.  I don't think the reason extends beyond what would compel me in a thriller story.  Is that bad though, if my reason doesn't go beyond that?


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## luckyscars (Jun 9, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh well, I just like crime thriller stories, and I thought that rape is a more terrorizing crime compared to what I usually see, so I thought it was the most compelling one, to read about in a story, since it's more dramatic than most crimes.  I don't mean real rape is interesting, just fictional rape in a fictional crime thriller.  I don't think the reason extends beyond what would compel me in a thriller story.  Is that bad though, if my reason doesn't go beyond that?



The main problem I see is that you're treating rape as as vehicle for drama. While that is not inherently *wrong* it lends itself to a certain amount of glibness in the subject. The reason I asked before if you were as interested in writing scenes of men being raped by men is because I kind of wanted to sniff out if there was a kind of perversity to the thrill. I don't necessarily think that there is, but I am not convinced you are necessarily interested in solemnly exploring the subject matter, either. 

And, you know, it's okay not to 'solemnly explore' things. However, that changes the kind of story it is. The worst thing you can do is to feign depth when there isn't any. That's when you get into the real deluded shit. That's when you start pissing people off.

I _think _you probably see rape as a kind of edgy angle with which to beef up what would otherwise be a fairly humdrum crime story. I _think_ you see it is 'interesting' because you see it as making the story more 'interesting' simply because it is rape and rape is a controversial topic. I also think there is a misguided belief that by simply including it, sans any real depth of understanding or new approach, you can make your story more topical and relevant than, say, having a gang who dealt drugs or laundered currency. In other words, I think you're probably halfway toward a good thing in at least wanting your story to stand out. You have the right approach, to that extent. Part of writing is looking for new ground and taking risks. I suspect you are willing to take risks (provided enough people on the internet approve!)

The really massive, unassailable problem is I believe you are not equipped to make sense of those risks and that is at least partly because you cannot commit fully to the kind of story you are trying to tell. That's kind of exhibited in the title of your thread where you seem unsure as to your depiction of police. 

It seems that half of you wants it to be a traditional cops-versus-robbers thing, a Dirty Harry type movie, the other half wants you to push into social commentary, political observation (you've started a thread on these things before) along the lines of, I don't know, The Accused or John Grisham 'A Time To Kill' stuff maybe, something along more cerebral, or at least procedural, lines. Those are two very different kinds of storytelling and they are very difficult to fuse in a way that actually works..

If your intent is to fuse them and to do so in a way that works, especially with a challenging subject like rape, then good luck. You will need it, and I don't think any number of forum threads is going to be enough. I think the past [X] number of years you've been trying should tell you something about where you stand in relation to the goal.


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## ironpony (Jun 9, 2020)

Oh okay thanks.  I want to treat the subject matter well for sure, and I don't want it just for shock value.  I don't think it would be a fairly humdrum crime story without it because since the villains are going around committing those types of crimes, that is the crime itself that the protagonist wants to stop, so is it humdrum if that is that is the crime itself?   It's not like I threw it in as a last minute change, a lot of the plot was built from it in the starting process.  If that makes sense?

As for me to committing to the type of story I want to tell, it's just I am going by feedback given to me where people say to make changes, but those changes may be problematic to the story... So I was just wanting second additional opinions, if I should make those changes.  So I guess I want to make changes if people say it will make the story better, but is that bad, because then I am not committed?


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## Sir-KP (Jun 9, 2020)

I don't know your story deeply about your rapey bad fellas, but frankly speaking, so far I'm still not convinced with the whole "dude cop got raped by another dude(s) and now he is out for blood" premise. Sometimes I LOL everytime you make a new thread and re-explain briefly about this cop dude. I mean, like, sucks to be him, but it's not enough as a crime story; it sounds like a gag sometimes.

Sorry, I'm not trying to break your morale. Again, I haven't read your story, so I don't know how deep you've actually drilled this part.

But you may want to research some more sick-f*ck rape cases to inspire your antagonist's character and the crimes he did, so that the antagonist would be more hate-able, gives greater motivation for the hero to take him down and the reader/viewer can root for the cop.


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## ironpony (Jun 9, 2020)

Oh really? I was told before that the antagonists are too unsympathetic, so I'm surprised you're saying that they need to be more darker now perhaps.

But what can I do to not make the premise unintentionally funny, if that is what it's coming off as?


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## luckyscars (Jun 9, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thanks.  I want to treat the subject matter well for sure, and I don't want it just for shock value.  I don't think it would be a fairly humdrum crime story without it because since the villains are going around committing those types of crimes, that is the crime itself that the protagonist wants to stop, so is it humdrum if that is that is the crime itself?   It's not like I threw it in as a last minute change, a lot of the plot was built from it in the starting process.  If that makes sense?
> 
> As for me to committing to the type of story I want to tell, it's just I am going by feedback given to me where people say to make changes, but those changes may be problematic to the story... So I was just wanting second additional opinions, if I should make those changes.  So I guess I want to make changes if people say it will make the story better, but is that bad, because then I am not committed?



No, I don't believe that. I don't believe it because you can't give a ghost of a reason why it is there otherwise. 

I doubt anybody who has discussed your work with you believes you are writing about rape for any reason other than you think it gives your work some kind of dramatic edge, that it 'ups the ante' in terms of how your work will be perceived. 

That is the definition of shock value. Whether or not you _want _to admit it is irrelevant. Whether you are comfortable with using the term 'shock value' is also irrelevant. Unless you have a purpose for including rape, unless you are including it to actually make a comment on rape and/or its treatment in society or within the justice system, there is no reason you are including it other than to make the audience go 'oooh, rape'. 

If I am wrong, please tell me what purpose it has other than to be shocking -- or 'thrilling', if that's a more palatable way of saying it, makes no matter.

ETA: It's okay to only include things to be shocking, there are entire genres dedicated to exactly that. But, if that is the case, you would be better served not being hamstrung by things like 'should I depict the police this way?' If it's a sexploitation movie or some kind of bloodthirsty action romp, then refrain from the pearl-clutching and own it, just like Tarantino owns it in his work and Stone owned it in 'Natural Born Killers'.


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## ironpony (Jun 9, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> No, I don't believe that. I don't believe it because you can't give a ghost of a reason why it is there otherwise.
> 
> I doubt anybody who has discussed your work with you believes you are writing about rape for any reason other than you think it gives your work some kind of dramatic edge, that it 'ups the ante' in terms of how your work will be perceived.
> 
> ...



Oh okay, well if I picked the crime because I thought it would be dramatic for the story is that bad then?  Other writers choose crimes like murder, and mass murder terrorism as crimes for their stories, and those are dramatic.  So are you saying that rape is off the table, as far as crimes though, when it crimes to crime fiction writing, when other dramatic crimes get a pass?  Why is a crime story about murder fine, but if it's rape, then it's "exploitation"?  Is it a double standard?


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## luckyscars (Jun 9, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, well if I picked the crime because I thought it would be dramatic for the story is that bad then?  Other writers choose crimes like murder, and mass murder terrorism as crimes for their stories, and those are dramatic.  So are you saying that rape is off the table, as far as crimes though, when it crimes to crime fiction writing, when other dramatic crimes get a pass?  Why is a crime story about murder fine, but if it's rape, then it's "exploitation"?  Is it a double standard?



There's no double standard. I did not say it was off the table. Crime stories about murder and rape and whatever are fine. The differences is that you are not consistent.

Some 'murder stories' treat murder for purely 'dramatic', 'thrilling' or 'shocking' purposes. That's a lot of horror stories, a lot of mystery stories, a lot of action and noir/neo-noir. Others use murder to explore the deeper psychological realms of the murderer -- Silence Of The Lambs, Monster, What Lies Beneath, etc. Others use murder to explore the investigation itself and the impact it has on the people surrounding the victim and killer. That would be 'Crime' (or 'True Crime'). Some are far more centered on the police work and getting the actual technicalities of homicide investigations correct. 

With your story, it sounds like you kind of want to write some kind of pacey, suspenseful thing, something that is a kind of halfway between neo-noir and thriller and horror, and that's definitely okay. But it is difficult to then talk about 'treating the subject matter well'. It is difficult because your entire premise rests on basically treating it pretty flippantly. It doesn't matter whether you want to treat it flippantly, you clearly are. You clearly are treating it flippantly because not once have you asked yourself the question "What am I trying to say about rape?" I don't think you have anything to say about rape, at least nothing that's new.

 The kind of people who enjoy heavy doses of violence and sex are probably not the kind of people who are interested in 'treating the subject matter well' and they're also less likely to care about the sensitivities concerning police officers. 

So, again, I come back to: I don't think you really know what you're trying to do.


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## ironpony (Jun 9, 2020)

Oh okay, I see.  Well I think my script is more along the lines of a movie like Seven, where as that movie doesn't explore the psychological treatment realms of murder as much as something compared to The Silence of the Lambs or Monster.  Where would a movie like Seven lie if it's not quite up there, but not totally flippant either, unless it is?


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## luckyscars (Jun 9, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, I see.  Well I think my script is more along the lines of a movie like Seven, where as that movie doesn't explore the psychological treatment realms of murder as much as something compared to The Silence of the Lambs or Monster.  Where would a movie like Seven lie if it's not quite up there, but not totally flippant either, unless it is?



Se7en's use of violent crime/sexual assault/murder is completely about the shock factor. It just happens to also be a good movie.


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## ironpony (Jun 9, 2020)

Oh okay perhaps I was writing more like that then with the shock factor perhaps then.


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## Xander416 (Jun 10, 2020)

Rape as Drama (as TV Tropes refers to it) is a bumpy road and something not many can pull off tactfully. From what I'm reading here, ironpony, you seem to be using it for shock value. While what you write is entirely up to you, that's something I'd personally never do. I'd suggest looking over what you have and asking yourself if the plot works without the rape. If you find it does, I'd suggest continuing without it.


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## ironpony (Jun 10, 2020)

Oh okay, thanks.  Well a lot of the villains actions and the plot turns as a result of those actions are because of the specific rape crime though, so therefore, the plot cannot work without it.  It would be like for example, if you were to take a screenplay, like say... Die Hard, and then try to change the heist crime, to rape, and then the rest of the plot does not work, because a lot of the turns the plot take, are because of a heist situation.  So I feel like the plot will hold together without the specific rape crime, if that makes sense?


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## apocalypsegal (Jun 11, 2020)

Well, another marathon thread that's basically going around on itself.

Look, here's the basic facts of writing a story:  tell the story. If it's about a group of rapists who've somehow managed to leave _no_ evidence at all -- in this day and age, it's still not impossible, but the odds against it go up with every crime -- , then that's what the story is. Is it about failures of the justice system? Is it about how far you can push a person before they break?

In the end, every story is about a person. Who is the main character? The cop who got raped, I'm guessing. This is ultimately a story about him being a victim, getting no justice, and getting mad about it, and deciding to do something outside the law, which he believed in and worked to uphold. It's been done before, it will be done again. It's not a bad theme.

The premise needs to make sense to the average person, or be explained by events. A group of incels who manage to meet up and plan rapes to a standard of forensic science that seems impossible? Okay. Sell me on that. How do they do this? What in their experience/study/luck allows this to happen? What about incompetence of LEO, CSI? It happens. Make me believe it. Suspension of belief.

The problem I still see with you is that you can't write without a committee telling you what to do. You are a flip-flopper, you go back and forth with every criticism, with every opinion, from anyone and everyone you can find to ask about your story. Stop it. I am serious. Stop right now. Right freaking now. If you are serious about writing, about seeing your scripts produced, then you need to learn to build your story and then write it until you hit "THE END". You need to find a group of three or five people who understand a good story. They don't have to be writers, probably shouldn't be, really, but people who enjoy the genre you write and have seen enough movies/TV, and or read enough books to have an understanding of what makes a good story in that genre, and are capable of answering some basic questions like, did the plot make sense, are the characters interesting, how did you feel about the climax.

*BUT!* And this is important, so pay attention:  don't let them read it until it is done. You type "THE END", then you send out the file to your select beta readers. Look around and find some questions successful authors ask their betas to answer, and send that along. Not a ton of questions, just basic stuff. People are giving their time to you, don't abuse it.

When you get the feedback, go over it carefully. See what responses each question gets. Does everyone agree that the MC is an idiot? They don't believe the plot is realistic (or has good enough explanation they can suspend belief, because things like faster than light travel are not possible, as we understand it, for example)? The ending makes them mad, because it's so off the wall nothing like that would ever happen, and you didn't build up to it properly? Or do a majority of the betas agree on any point? Then you might want to look at the story and see if they're right, and you missed the boat.

It's hard to do without constant feedback, we creative people seem to lack some internal thing that lets us just create without worry (well, some of us, maybe a majority from what I see) but you really need to change how you're working if you expect to get anywhere, because I've lurked on this forum for years, and nothing changes. You start thread after thread about basically the same issues, and every time, it's the same old same old. People are giving you good advice, and you argue with it. Someone else said blah blah blah, were they wrong? You've changed everything every time someone expressed an opinion, whether you agreed with it or not. You're driving yourself around in circles, getting nowhere, and making a rut in the road.

Or I could be wrong and this sort of thing is what makes you happy, and we'll soon see another thread that goes on for page after page, yadda yadda yadda.


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## Annoying kid (Jun 11, 2020)

Not for nothing, he's done this on like fifteen other forums.


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## ironpony (Jun 11, 2020)

Oh okay, well I have shown it to a few people, but if they say their are problems, and that I should get other opinions on how to fix those problems, should I not then?  Or what's the point of having readers if I shouldn't try to fix the problems they mention?

As for how they are beating the forensic evidence, I could give a very long explanation on this, it's just when I did this before, I was told it was too complex and expository, and I need to not concentrate too much on the technicalities, because it's exposition, and I should just move on with the rest of the story, and concentrate on the characters more.  Is this advice correct, or do I need to spend time on the forensic science more?


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## ironpony (Jun 15, 2020)

Well I've been doing some thinking.  Perhaps because of the current events in the US, I should put a disclaimer on the screenplay, explaining how how it's meant as complete fictional entertainment, and it's not meant as an allegory to real life events? Would this be a good idea?


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## Periander (Jun 15, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Well I've been doing some thinking.  Perhaps because of the current events in the US, I should put a disclaimer on the screenplay, explaining how how it's meant as complete fictional entertainment, and it's not meant as an allegory to real life events? Would this be a good idea?



No.  You should never apologize for your writing.  You shouldn't try to defend it.  Man up!  Own your work and let it speak for itself.  If you're sure of it, stick it up on the wall and get some critiques.  If you're ashamed of it, throw it in the rubbish pile and write something different altogether.  I've lost count of how much stuff I've discarded.  No efforts are wasted...it's just part of the process of getting better as a writer.

Just my opinion.


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## Xander416 (Jun 15, 2020)

Agree completely with Periader. I'm tired of the notion that everything needs a disclaimer stating it doesn't fit this person's or that company's personal sensibilities for whatever reason. If someone can't handle the subject matter of a novel, movie, TV show, or video game, they need to just pass on it for something else.


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## ironpony (Jun 16, 2020)

Oh okay.   I can just keep it the way it is then, and hope for the best.


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## apocalypsegal (Jun 20, 2020)

Annoying kid said:


> Not for nothing, he's done this on like fifteen other forums.



That many? I know he's been here for years doing this, because I've lurked here for years, but other forums too? Then my guess is we'll see another thread about something else pretty soon, and it will have the same results.


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## apocalypsegal (Jun 20, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, well I have shown it to a few people, but if they say their are problems, and that I should get other opinions on how to fix those problems, should I not then?  Or what's the point of having readers if I shouldn't try to fix the problems they mention?
> 
> As for how they are beating the forensic evidence, I could give a very long explanation on this, it's just when I did this before, I was told it was too complex and expository, and I need to not concentrate too much on the technicalities, because it's exposition, and I should just move on with the rest of the story, and concentrate on the characters more.  Is this advice correct, or do I need to spend time on the forensic science more?



Okay, to the first part:  As I suggested, you need to pick people who can tell you what doesn't work _for them_. A few people, no more than five. Yes, they will have opinions. Most of them won't agree, probably. It's up to you to decide if the problem is truly a problem, or a matter of opinions. You are the writer. At this point, you should have a basic understanding of how to write a script, what elements you need, how to make it believable to potential producers.

To the second point:  No one needs info dump about how these guys keep getting away with their crimes. Labs make mistakes. Evidence is overlooked. Police are incompetent. It should come out in the story, or the audience won't believe it, and therefore you've lost. If the producer looks at your script and goes, no one will buy these goofs being that lucky, then you've lost.

And this is going to sound harsh, but some people just aren't meant to be writers. They can't tell stories well, sometimes they don't even really have stories to tell. It's a nice dream, being a writer. But it's also a crap ton of hard work, years of studying and practicing, being knocked down and disheartened. All you can do is study, practice, get your stories done and out there. Or quit. Either way, your decision.

But honestly, years and years of posts like this. People spending time trying to teach you something you either can't or won't accept. Get some intestinal fortitude. Write your script, put it out to agents and/or producers. Get feedback from people who actually have some skin in the game. Stop being wishy-washy, going back and forth, "fixing" things you don't even understand are a problem. If there even _are_ problems. Sometimes beta readers are wrong. I know it's heresy to say it, but if they aren't the right readers, then they are useless.


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## ironpony (Jun 20, 2020)

Oh okay thanks.  When it comes to readers all having different opinions, how do you know what will work with a majority audience though, if there is no majority agreement on what works?  How do you know if something is a plot hole or not for example?


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## apocalypsegal (Jun 20, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thanks.  When it comes to readers all having different opinions, how do you know what will work with a majority audience though, if there is no majority agreement on what works?  How do you know if something is a plot hole or not for example?



You know from experience. You've seen movies, read books, watched TV. What worked? Why? What criticisms did it get? Do you agree? Honestly, no one ever gets 100% right, you're good if the reviews balance out 50/50. Doing great if the majority is good.

There are genre tropes for a reason. It's because over time, the stories with certain elements seem to hit the biggest audience satisfaction test. Can you go against that? Sure. You might even be successful. It happens.

In the end, you are the writer. You decide if the story works, if it's done, if there's nothing else you can find to do. Others might say, yes, spot on. Or no, go back and fix this, the ending falls apart here. But even then, you are the final say. You may not sell that work, but you make the decision whether to fix it or not.

Basically, this is what people have been telling you for years. Learn how to tell stories, in whatever medium you choose. Know what's already out there, analyze it, learn from it. Then write your story and try to sell it. If that doesn't happen, learn from what you're told, and write the next story.

None of really know what will sell and what won't. All we can do is tell the best story we can, learn, and move on. Stop getting stuck in dueling opinions and get the story out there to people who matter, in your case, agents and/or producers.


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## Kyle R (Jun 20, 2020)

ironpony said:


> How do you know if something is a plot hole or not for example?


A plot hole is something in the structure of the story that doesn't, logically, make sense.

For example: if a character dies in one scene, then a few scenes later that same character is alive again, with no explanation—that's a plot hole.


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## indianroads (Jun 20, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thanks.  When it comes to readers all having different opinions, how do you know what will work with a majority audience though, if there is no majority agreement on what works?  How do you know if something is a plot hole or not for example?



As the saying goes: _Try to please all, and you'll please none. _Write your story as clearly as you can from your character's perspective without pontificating. Make your book about the character, not the controversy. My novels have included: police overreach, child abuse, the perils of socialism, dangers of tyranny, religious intolerance, and sexism - but they've all been about the character's journey.

To me, plot holes are another matter entirely. They are inconsistencies in the plot, flow, or an event that takes a crazy leap of faith to accept.


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## Annoying kid (Jun 20, 2020)

apocalypsegal said:


> That many? I know he's been here for years doing this, because I've lurked here for years, but other forums too? Then my guess is we'll see another thread about something else pretty soon, and it will have the same results.



Its been compiled in the past on a different writing site, where he was using a different username, but if we just use the ironpony name, I could link like 8 of em right now. The mods on that last site deleted that compilation though, considering it harrassment or something. The point is, imagine exactly what he's doing here, but multiplied over that many forums and over four years over a single screenplay. So the question has been asked before; why is he doing it?

It was concluded that he probably just does it for attention, and to talk about the controversy. Not so much anything to do with writing. Therefore answering his topics is counter productive. But then you all already knew that.


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## BornForBurning (Jun 20, 2020)

> Its been compiled in the past on a different writing site, where he was using a different username, but if we just use the ironpony name, I could link like 8 of em right now. The mods on that last site deleted that compilation though, considering it harrassment or something.


It's epic. It's literally the Lord of the Rings of internet writing critique. I am of the opinion that ironpony is an unintentional genius...he's the Terminator, for posters who take themselves too seriously. He's literally impervious to criticism, ergo, 
>normie WF poster: "I think your story sucks and is complete sexist trash." 
>ironpony, the genius: "Okay thanks but..." 
Brilliant. I love this guy. Indestructible, unstoppable. Bloodless, heartless, a man of pure steel, and he does it all with the unassuming style of a homeschooled twelve-year-old. Truly his name, ironpony, was well-chosen.


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## indianroads (Jun 20, 2020)

BornForBurning said:


> It's epic. It's literally the Lord of the Rings of internet writing critique. I am of the opinion that ironpony is an unintentional genius...he's the Terminator, for posters who take themselves too seriously. He's literally impervious to criticism, ergo,
> >normie WF poster: "I think your story sucks and is complete sexist trash."
> >ironpony, the genius: "Okay thanks but..."
> Brilliant. I love this guy. Indestructible, unstoppable. Bloodless, heartless, a man of pure steel, and he does it all with the unassuming style of a homeschooled twelve-year-old. Truly his name, ironpony, was well-chosen.



I've had that feeling for awhile - and do recall his handle showing up on another site, but didn't pay attention to the reception he got. He's kind of frustrating, and I've often wanted to say, _Just shut up and start writing! _


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## Kyle R (Jun 20, 2020)

I believe ironpony genuinely wants to improve his writing. I think he simply worries too much about reader feedback, and needs to learn to trust his own creative choices more.

Like him, I'm quite prone to over-analysis and obsessive tendencies, as well. It can be difficult to move past, and difficult to accept things beyond your control, especially when you're hoping to do well at something.

But I've learned that, as a writer, some readers simply are _not _going to like your work—and you have to be okay with that. Once you can accept that, it becomes noticeably easier to make creative choices. :encouragement:


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## ironpony (Jun 21, 2020)

Oh okay.  Yes, I just want to improve my writing.  But as far as looking towards other examples of fiction to tell what is okay, and not okay, it's hard to tell.

For example, I though that the movie Die Hard 2 had plot holes in, or am I wrong?


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## apocalypsegal (Jun 21, 2020)

That's pretty bad. I know of a guy who basically only shows up on forums (I've seen him on at lease five) to ask basic questions that he'd know the answer to if he actually just read the forum. He's been around for years now, going from forum to forum, asking the same question, seldom responding, never participating, or helping anyone else. At first I thought he was here, but he typically uses the same name, and it isn't the subject of our discussion.

Anyway, people have their own thing, I guess, and if spending five or ten or however many years agonizing over the same piece of work does it for them, it's all good. Me, I write fast and tell the best story I can and move on. No time to dither, no time to dally, I ain't gettin' no younger, y'all. I think it comes down to, are any of us going to continue replying, only to be ignored, or not understood? I think I'm done. I'll help anyone I can, but I've reached the point where I need a crash helmet.


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## apocalypsegal (Jun 21, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay.  Yes, I just want to improve my writing.  But as far as looking towards other examples of fiction to tell what is okay, and not okay, it's hard to tell.
> 
> For example, I though that the movie Die Hard 2 had plot holes in, or am I wrong?



How hard, though? You learn the basics, you get the experience, you can figure out what was right or wrong in anything. Or, at least have your own opinion. In the end, it's all just opinion. Yours, the reader's, the agent's, the producer's, the actor's. 

Let me explain this in as simple a way as I can:  you can't write by committee. It's crazy to try. Everybody has their own opinion, their own idea of how they'd write the story. At some point, you have to accept that it's your story, and right or wrong, you're going to write it your way or you never get anywhere. As you should realize by now. Gods know, I've told you often enough myself.


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## Kyle R (Jun 21, 2020)

apocalypsegal said:


> Anyway, people have their own thing, I guess, and if spending five or ten or however many years agonizing over the same piece of work does it for them, it's all good. Me, I write fast and tell the best story I can and move on. No time to dither, no time to dally, I ain't gettin' no younger, y'all. I think it comes down to, are any of us going to continue replying, only to be ignored, or not understood? I think I'm done. I'll help anyone I can, but I've reached the point where I need a crash helmet.



I don't want to name any names, but I think it's worth pointing that there are writers on here with various diagnoses, including dyslexia, ADHD, and autism.

I'm not in that group, though I can imagine how such things could add difficulties to the process of writing, and could lead to questions that might seem redundant or overly analytical.

Sometimes writers need to hear the same advice over and over again before it clicks. I know I often do! :encouragement:


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## ironpony (Jun 21, 2020)

Oh okay, yes, I want the story to be good, but at the same time, do not want it to be bad from writing from committee.  When I pass the story onto new readers, they will ask why certain things happen the way they do, or why characters make certain decisions, that they may think are odd, and I will tell them others advised me to write it that way, so I took their recommendations.  But does it sound bad of a writer to answer that way?

For example, I was told by some that the I do not explain enough of the forensic detail of the crimes, and I really need to elaborate more.  So I did, but then other readers, say that I get into forensics too much, and that it's too complicated and too expository, and just concentrate on the characters drive and forget all that forensic stuff, they said.  So how do you know which way to go then?


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## Periander (Jun 21, 2020)

ironpony said:


> So how do you know which way to go then?



I don't.  That's what makes it fun.  Not knowing which way to go and just following your creative instinct and seeing where it takes you.  Embrace your uncertainty!  Writing would be a total bore if the creative choices we had to make were simple and straightforward.  Don't answer the above question.  Stop worrying and learn to love the confusion of being a writer.


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## ironpony (Jun 21, 2020)

Oh okay, but should I try to be simple and straightforward then since I wast old before to keep things simple to the reader, if that's what you are referring to?


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## Sir-KP (Jun 21, 2020)

indianroads said:


> As the saying goes: _Try to please all, and you'll please none. _


Damn straight. 



indianroads said:


> My novels have included: religious intolerance


If we could go off-topic a little, I'm curious what kind of feedback from this work of yours. Did it get some sort of backlash from people that were offended by (I suppose) fictional religion in fictions?


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## indianroads (Jun 22, 2020)

Actually the feedback was all positive. It was a SciFi novel, and so was an invented religion - therefore not an attack on any specific belief.


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## ironpony (Jun 22, 2020)

Another difficulty I have when I write is I am not sure what decisions a character would make in a situation, when they have to choose between all bad options especially.  Is there a way of knowing this as a writer, what the best option in a bad scenario would be?


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## luckyscars (Jun 22, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Another difficulty I have when I write is I am not sure what decisions a character would make in a situation, when they have to choose between all bad options especially.  Is there a way of knowing this as a writer, what the best option in a bad scenario would be?





ironpony said:


> Oh okay, but should I try to be simple and straightforward then since I wast old before to keep things simple to the reader, if that's what you are referring to?



Assuming you are asking these question in good faith and not just to filibuster out another thread, I'd say you might be getting really close to grasping (1) Why you have so many issues completing your work and (2) Why your questions irritate so many people. 

Writing is ultimately about taking risks. You cannot ask questions to get better. Stephen King does not and never did spend time on forums (or anywhere else) asking people 'HAY DOES THIS WORK?" He just wrote it. 

The occasional question is okay, especially if it's something about which you have no idea, but everybody knows you're not doing that. What you're doing, regardless of whether you realize it or not, is outsourcing your creative labor to other people.

I know you have 'been told' to 'get feedback'. And that's fine, get feedback. But feedback on every minutiae of a story's miscellaneous ideas or plot points is not what people are thinking of when they say that. 

What they are saying is to finish your work and have people read it and give you suggestions which you then _consider _and perhaps _rework _but always _by yourself. 

_You have been told multiple times of the dangers regarding writing-by-committee and yet you are still doing it. The fact you are still doing it is inconsiderate because it is wasting people's time. Again, I believe you don't mean to do that, but you are doing it. Every time you lure us into helping you, you disrespect us by not listening and then revamping the same series of questions. 

Every time you punt on making a decision and finishing your work after you have been gifted hours on hours of strangers' time to help you, you disrespect your community.

This isn't another 'GET REAL IRONPONY' anger-post or anything. Again, you are okay to ask occasional questions and occasionally you do ask ones that you should be asking (mainly in the research thread). You cross the line into bullshit when you start on stuff like "IS THIS BELIEVABLE?" or "DO YOU THINK THE VICTIM WOULD FEEL PRESSURED?" or "HOW DO I MAKE THIS BELIEVABLE?" Those questions cross the line into disrespect because you know full well they are utterly unanswerable and are, again, not about getting help but about getting free labor at minimal risk while wasting time. You might as well pay somebody to write it for you. 

I hope you read the above and it progresses a change. I'm not necessarily thinking it will, but you do need to try harder.


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## ironpony (Jun 22, 2020)

Oh okay, maybe this is me, but how are the questions unanswerable?  Because I am not showing the entire screenplay?


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## Kyle R (Jun 22, 2020)

There's no correct way to write fiction. And when faced with different directions that the story could go, the decision is ultimately up to the writer.

For example, I'm at a point in one of my current works where the character could try to escape . . . or she could go along with her captors. The choice she makes here will impact the rest of the story.

Which is the right choice?

The answer, of course, is up to me. Whichever choice I make _is_ the right choice. Because there's no correct answer when it comes to fiction—there are just different creative directions.

Now, if something doesn't make sense logically (a plot hole), then it should be addressed and fixed. But aside from that? The rest is just a matter of choice. :encouragement:


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## ironpony (Jun 22, 2020)

Oh okay thanks. I was told the opposite by another reader in, and he said that the problem is I'm making the decisions for the characters that they wouldn't make, and the characters should make them, and that I should let them.


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## Kyle R (Jun 22, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thanks. I was told the opposite by another reader . . .


The more people you ask, the more conflicting advice you're likely going to get. That's the problem with continually asking others for suggestions.

It's one of the reasons I only seek advice from _one_ trusted reader these days, and nobody else. I find that it keeps things streamlined and simple.

Writing doesn't have to feel this hard. In my opinion, your difficulties come from your tendency to ask for feedback from multiple sources, as if you're hoping to find some kind of consensus where everyone magically agrees upon a single approach, or approves of a single idea. That'll likely never happen. :grief:

Because there _is_ no single correct (or "best") way to write a story. And if anyone suggests otherwise, they're wrong.


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## ironpony (Jun 22, 2020)

Oh okay.  How does one know if their work is good though, if there is no majority consensus though?


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## Kyle R (Jun 22, 2020)

I can't speak for others, but for me? I can't control what others think. And reader consensus is almost never reached. But I _can_ write a story to the best of my ability.

(By definition, a writer literally _cannot_ write better than their personal best.)

So if you write your story the best you can? Then, to me, that's the pinnacle. That's the finish line. :encouragement:

And if you want to get feedback to catch any typos, grammar errors, or logical mistakes—that's fine. But beyond that? Feedback isn't really needed, IMO.


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## ironpony (Jun 23, 2020)

Oh okay, I can try that.  How do you know which way is the best though?  For example, if you have given your story premise different executions, all with each of their own pros and cons, how do you tell which execution is the best one?


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## luckyscars (Jun 23, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, I can try that.  How do you know which way is the best though?  For example, if you have given your story premise different executions, all with each of their own pros and cons, how do you tell which execution is the best one?



Do you actually think that's a question anybody can answer?


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## ironpony (Jun 23, 2020)

There are no guides people go by to find out which execution is better?  They don't choose based on type?


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## Annoying kid (Jun 24, 2020)

ironpony said:


> There are no guides people go by to find out which execution is better?  They don't choose based on type?



Guides, including writing forums, can do more harm than good at times. This is one of those times.


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## Kyle R (Jun 24, 2020)

ironpony said:


> How do you know which way is the best though?  For example, if you have given your story premise different executions, all with each of their own pros and cons, how do you tell which execution is the best one?



There's no such thing as a "best" way in creative writing—because taste is subjective.

And the more people you ask in hopes of finding a "best" way, the more disagreement you're going to find. Because everyone has different ideas of what works and what doesn't.


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## ironpony (Jun 24, 2020)

Okay thanks.  What about picking the execution with the most plot, and the most twists and turns vs. the most simplest one that only has the bare minimum plot required to get to the same ending?  Does one sound better than the other in that case, or should I just use my instincts?


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## Taylor (Jun 24, 2020)

I think it could be very relevant.  But you would have to have these cops be a window into the current situation.  Can your story have a way to educate the public on how this situation came about and at the end there is solution?


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## ironpony (Jun 24, 2020)

Oh okay, thanks, but what do you mean a window into the current situation?


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## Taylor (Jun 24, 2020)

Recently there have been a lot of facts about these police forces and their policies.  As an outsider witnessing it, I am learning a lot about police culture.  I am finding it fascinating.  And of course it is not all black and white.  There may be some police taking matters in to their own hands that are doing good.  But some that are not.  And some in the middles.  Perhaps your script educates the public on why it is not a good idea for police to venture out of the policies and the law.  I think it could be an amazing and pertinent script.  Cover the conflicts of officers and how they deal with it.


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## Taylor (Jun 24, 2020)

Also, I just want to add you could write it in the point of view of cops that are not doing it but only witnessing it.


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## Kyle R (Jun 24, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  What about picking the execution with the most plot, and the most twists and turns vs. the most simplest one that only has the bare minimum plot required to get to the same ending?  Does one sound better than the other . . . ?



That's up to you to decide. And that's part of being a writer: making your own creative choices.

There's really no wrong way to write a story. You could write it simple, and make it amazing. You could write it complex, and make it amazing. And the same goes for anything in between. :encouragement:


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## indianroads (Jun 24, 2020)

The best way is the one that gets it done.


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## ironpony (Jun 24, 2020)

Taylor said:


> Recently there have been a lot of facts about these police forces and their policies.  As an outsider witnessing it, I am learning a lot about police culture.  I am finding it fascinating.  And of course it is not all black and white.  There may be some police taking matters in to their own hands that are doing good.  But some that are not.  And some in the middles.  Perhaps your script educates the public on why it is not a good idea for police to venture out of the policies and the law.  I think it could be an amazing and pertinent script.  Cover the conflicts of officers and how they deal with it.



Oh okay thanks.  I wrote it so that the cops are successful at getting the villains from going outside, the law, but at too great of cost though, if that helps.



Taylor said:


> Also, I just want to add you could write it in the point of view of cops that are not doing it but only witnessing it.



You mean have the character going outside the law, not be cops?


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## Taylor (Jun 24, 2020)

No, I mean they are cops on the force with other cops that are doing it. Perhaps one cop doesn't agree with his senior partner who is doing it. They don't want to be whistle blowers.  How do they handle it?   I can imagine tons of good scenes.  They are conflicted because at the beginning the cops going outside the law are doing good.  So they don't say anything. Then at some point a bad apple gets in the mix.  This guy has the wrong motives.  But now they are all implicated because they haven't said anything.  They realize they are part of the problem that is happening now in real life.  How do they deal with it as cops on the force.  Is there a way for them to self-regulate. So they can fix the problem internally.


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## ironpony (Jun 24, 2020)

Oh okay thanks.  I do have it so some of the cops disagree and it reaches the point where things go too far for them.  However, the police do not become vigilant and brutal on the villains until the third act though, when they are pushed too far.  So it doesn't take up a whole lot of the plot, other than the third act, if that makes any difference?


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## Taylor (Jun 24, 2020)

Oh that's perfect!  This sounds like a great script.  Something I would enjoy.  When will it get produced?


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## Theglasshouse (Jun 24, 2020)

Ironpony you might enjoy watching the series Luther. It's a British detective series, but the vigilante cop is on the side of good and breaks the law for the higher ups in power. Maybe some of your characters actions should be positive. That series broke that cliché. It's not a legal thriller I think. It's just a classic case of good people breaking the law chasing bad people (the whole police department are self-aware of the breaking of the law but I think the boss trusts him since he is an exceptional detective almost as if ocd born with a defect in nitroglycerin in the heart). All the people are caught in the series I'd like to think. I never finished it. Because right then it delved into some horror. However, I recommend you watch it. It's about murders though and not "serial" rapists which makes a big difference in public perception. I recommend you watch it when you think you need an idea. Or read the script if you can find it somewhere or buy it. It's the opposite of what you wrote. Watch it on netflix for free if you want. The more scripts you see on the same or similar genre the better. BTW it might be a police agency or a cover-up unit. I know they are not spies. Again, see it if you want because it was consider a cult classic in Britian. I ignored my brother's recommendations and watched it and ignored sherlock holmes the series.


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## ironpony (Jun 24, 2020)

Oh okay, thanks, I'll see if I can find it.  How is it the opposite of what I wrote?


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## ironpony (Jun 24, 2020)

Taylor said:


> Oh that's perfect!  This sounds like a great script.  Something I would enjoy.  When will it get produced?



Hopefully soon.


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## Theglasshouse (Jun 24, 2020)

I think that is more a question you'll need to answer by yourself. You know your screenplay well and much better than me. If by the basic description it interests you because it is very similar then try to see it. I bet you could enjoy it. You could also copy some things you might like. Such as imitating the characterization.


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## Theglasshouse (Jun 24, 2020)

By opposite, it's a subjective truth if I explain. But the whole police department or his bosses know of his breaking the law just as an example. That's starting from his first few episodes. It's in the dialogue of the police chief or head of the department is female. This series has characters that are very diverse. The lead as you know is a colored person. It it not much of a spoiler. But here's another his character is not out to get revenge but tries to do his duty and breaks the law when it will make a difference. In the first episode you see a darker side of the police force but that operates on justice. That and he teams up with someone later on that I dont want to spoil who acts very well as an actor in the story.


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## apocalypsegal (Jun 29, 2020)

Well, that's true. I'll refrain from responding further, just for my own self interest.


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## ironpony (Jun 29, 2020)

Well I could write so that the main character is discovered and punished for what he does, it's just if I do that, then two villains who are arrested walk free then.  So I guess it depends on what would the reader rather have happen more... the protagonist being caught for breaking the law in getting those two villains indicted, or not having them walk free as a result?


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