# Just Not Sure



## Lewdog (May 24, 2013)

This has been a crazy week all around the world.  It's been somewhat crazy for myself as well.  I'm not real sure how to put into words how I've felt since Sunday, but maybe eventually they will come to me.  From Sunday afternoon around 3 pm, I slept all of three hours over a period of what I think was 60+ hours.  Those three hours were purely out of exhaustion, and when I woke up, I was wide awake.  Each day I did try to sleep several times, and I can't explain how frustrating it is to lay in bed and roll over and stare at the clock and pray for rest.  I would sometimes try for an hour then get up out of bed, while other times just lay there in bed for hours upon hours.  Finally Wednesday I slept for what I think was 12 hours, yet sadly now I'm back to where I was Sunday.  I've been up all night and I am wide awake with no drowsiness on the horizon.  There are just somethings in life that you can't explain to other people, they just have to be able to experience it for their selves to understand.  I'm 36 soon to be 37 and I am really losing my mind.  I'm not saying that as a euphemism, it's real.  Before anyone recommends it, I've sought help before, and I am still under the guidance of someone I see every 3 months.  It just doesn't do any good.

My mind just works in a different way than most.  I'm not here to toot my own horn, but I'm not dumb by any stretch of the imagination, and I am knowledgeable enough about any subject to hold some kind of casual conversation.  I haven't been in school in years, yet I can bounce ideas off my cousin on different possibilities of how to use his stem cell research to solve a certain genetic condition.  I just don't know, I'm lonely stuck in a place I don't want to be, depending on other people, and waiting for something that is out of my control that will change my life.  I've never felt so helpless.  All I ever want is to be able to control my own life and destiny.


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## Gargh (May 24, 2013)

Honestly, you sound just like me before I had a major crash (metaphorically). I was in a situation where I felt powerless and even persecuted but I kept trying to fit my square self through the round hole and make it work because it was the 'right' thing to do. I didn't listen to myself, I would even say that I listened to other people's opinions about myself and my situation more than my own. Inevitably, I could only function like that for so long before I crashed. Now I'm making gradual, small steps to lead my life the way I want to but that does mean forgiving myself some responsibility for what happens to me but taking full responsibility for how I respond to it. You wouldn't run in to a tornado and scream at it to stop would you? Sometimes all you can control is how you react to life, truly. And I don't mean you have to develop a sunny disposition and love bunnies but just start small doing something you want to do that you do have control over. Even if it's just taking a walk or going to the library.


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## Lewdog (May 24, 2013)

Thanks.  I have to be quite honest, and this is a really hard thing for many people to understand, but I have been in places where I have seen 'people' (not trying to generalize too much and include those here) and I just can't stand to be around many of them.  To me, people generally are innately evil.  They are selfish, condescending, and greedy.  For many years I worked in retail.  I worked directly with customers and not only dealt with sales, but customer service as well.  I came back from the Marines and worked as a sales associate, and worked my way up into management.  I worked for a few different large companies, and eventually in the end, was a district manager dealing with five stores and several million dollars a year in sales.  I've seen the worst in customers, and I've seen even worse out of co-workers who will do anything they can to see you fail and take your place.  In my years in retail, I dealt with worse people than during my five years work in a correctional facility.  I have just gotten to the point where I hate people.  I want to have a close group of friends who I can trust, and people I can count on, but at the same time I don't want to have anyone I have to rely on.  If that makes any sense.  This is indeed a cruel world, and unfortunately it's the only world we can live in.  No matter where we go, we are going to see the evils of others, and in my life I've just seen more evil than I have seen good.  The worst thing is, so many times people will do bad things, and they have no idea whatsoever that what they are doing is bad and hurting other people.  Their behavior has just become acceptable.  It's just who 'they' are, and others have seen it for so long it's no longer bad, and like a cancer it spreads.  Then there are those who think like I do, and have an analytic mind that breaks down EVERYTHING, and when I point out these anomalies, I'm the outcast.  I'm the one that all of a sudden has the poor judgement.  I'm the one who is wrong, and is behaving badly.  

I've made my fair share of mistakes in my life, so don't think for a second like I'm standing on a pedestal proclaiming to be a saint.  I'm not one, and I'll never be one, but I just see so much evil in people anymore.  All of it makes me sick.  I just don't know.


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## Gargh (May 24, 2013)

_'I've just seen more evil than I have seen good.'_

You've hit the answer right there. I worked in a casino where the customers were allowed to systematically let rip at the staff and I became cowed and small and began to hate people and judge everyone by the standards I had seen there. I now know that not everyone is like that and I am seeing good in the world again that redresses the balance enough for me to feel more hopeful. It is there if you look for it, just don't look for it in environments that are designed to be high-pressured and bring out the worst type of competitiveness in people. I also feel that global media has a lot to answer for. Humans were not designed to cope with that much bad news all at once. Our emotions are tools to help us process the world but not at the rate we currently do and not from a distance where we can rightly feel powerless.  Scale back your perspective and have a look at what's going on right there on your doorstep and see if you can help, it's all any of us can do.


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## Lewdog (May 24, 2013)

That's just it, it seems like every time a person has the ability to have power of another person, they assert it in a bad way.  As *John Emerich Edward Dalberg-Acton, 1st Baron Act*'s saying goes, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely."  That sums it up in a nutshell to me, and probably has a lot to do with my problem with authority figures.  I've never seen someone who was totally, and impartially fair, whether purposely or not, ever.


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## Gargh (May 24, 2013)

A friend of mine used to work in NGOs both on the front line and behind the scenes and he rapidly came to realise that what he could do for the people he cared about there was limited. He is not someone who seeks power for power's sake but he recognised that he could not truly help people without some power because all the ****s of this world have it and the playing field needs to be levelled. So, he got inside the system and is now manipulating it to his agenda. Now, does that make him a bad person or a good person? Will he become corrupted by the power and the distance it gives you from everyday life? I believe he is just one person trying to make a difference, as he sees it, efficiently and actively. Someone will always have more power than others and I would rather it be him because he listens and loves with a tender heart. We need more people like that. But yes, no one person should have _absolute _power.


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## Pluralized (May 24, 2013)

Lewdog - sorry you're suffering man, and there's probably nothing I can offer to help you feel better. However, this being an open forum and all, I'll chime in for what it's worth -

You're coloring the world with a narrow perception of reality, which is then manifesting negative emotions and driving you mad. What you're allowing these so-called "evil" people to do, is take up residence in your head and poke at you. The hard truth? They don't even exist, except in your own head. Therefore, by allowing these monsters to rule you, they've won, you've lost, and you're depleted as a person. 

You've no idea the hardships that other people face. You don't know that the way people act in a retail setting is anything like who they truly are. Our society is detached from compassion, preoccupied with material goods, and we live in a consumer-driven land of demand, attachment, and confused emotions. To surmise that all these people are inherently bad, is short-sighted and you can find much peace if you understand that. 

People all want the same things - love, warmth, health, food, and if you break it all down - we're all very similar at the basic level. It's a shame that you've had to live among so many monsters, and I really feel for you. In my business, and personal life, I meet thousands of people each year, all over the world, I travel for work a lot, and I can tell you unequivocally - people aren't inherently bad. They are inherently negligent perhaps, in this society, but it sounds your worldview is increasingly and unfairly jaded against humanity. I'd encourage you to network with some kind of group that shares your interest. I couldn't come to grips with the church folk where I live, so mine has been bicycle advocacy. To each their own, but looking for the good in people has helped me overcome some very similar and very negative feelings. My comments here are meant as nothing but trying to give you a different perspective, not to start a debate over good v evil. I wish you quick and safe passage through these dark waters. Sounds like you're in a dangerous place.


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## Lewdog (May 24, 2013)

Well you definitely won't catch me hanging out with church people.  I won't get into that, because it will just create a whole bunch of trouble.  I think my biggest problem was that some of my retail work dealt with the worst type of sales, cell phones and nutritional supplements.  I'll tell you about a story of a guy that I encountered early in my career.  It was quite funny how I handled it, and I was just a sales associate at the time.  They guy that was working with me was very new and he about fell over when he saw what I did.

I was working for one of the largest nutritional supplement companies in the U.S., in a mall box store.  Myself and another associate was putting out a shipment that had arrived first thing that morning.  There is no designation of a stock person and a sales associate, sales associates did everything.  Well when a shipment comes in and a high volume store, you generally have about one and a half to two shifts to get it all priced and put out on the shelves, otherwise new shipments come in and you get behind.  We were dealing with the shipment when a guy in a suit came in the store, and seemed like he was in a hurry.  I let the new guy take care of him because he needed to learn the ropes.  I continued to put away stock while listening to what was going on.  The man said he needed cranberry pills for a friend.  Right away I knew what was going on.  The guy was buying the cranberry pills to flush his system for a drug test.  Cranberry is used as a homeopathic remedy for urinary tract infections because it will clear your system of bacteria and toxins.  Well the new associate couldn't find it on the shelf, so I walked over and grabbed one and handed it to him.  He argued with me that it wasn't what he wanted.  He said he wanted the best we had.  I told him that was the strongest concentration we had in the store.  After a few minutes I gave up arguing with him and walked back to doing stock.  The bottle I handed him was GNC brand and in a plastic bottle.  Well he walked around the store and found some other cranberry pills that were GNC brand and in a glass bottle.  He walked up to me and shoved it in my face.  Then he said, "You tried to sell me some cheap stuff instead of taking the time to look around and get what I wanted!  I told you that there was a better one!"  He was talking to me like I was the scum of the earth.  That's when something inside of me just went off, "Sir, what I gave you is the better product.  They are both GNC brand and the one in the plastic bottle not only has more cranberry, but it is pure extract.  Just because the other is in a glass bottle doesn't mean it's better."  He then continued to try and talk down to me and I went farther, "You know what sir, just because I work as a sales associate at a store in the mall doesn't mean you can talk to me however you want.  I'm a person just the same as you.  You wouldn't want me coming to your work and yelling at you and talking to you like you are worthless.  I don't think we can help you today.  I'm not going to sell you anything, you'll have to go buy your cranberry pills somewhere else.  Thanks, and have a good day."  The guy was absolutely speechless.  I don't think I ever felt that mush relief in my entire life.  He looked at me for a second, set the bottle down, and walked out of the store.  The guy working with me couldn't believe what I had just done.  When I told my manager about it, he just laughed.  I hope the guy failed his drug test, he deserved it.  I have no pity for people who are willing to risk their livelihood in order to do drugs, and think it is other people's responsibility to help them cover it up.


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## Pluralized (May 24, 2013)

I work in the construction industry in the southeastern US. I get to see the absolute scourge of humanity on a weekly basis, and I must dig deep sometimes to maintain a positive outlook. What I've been able to do, thankfully, is to relate to just about everyone on some level. There are difficult people all over the place, but how you respond to their provocations is what defines you, and it really doesn't matter what you think of them. Their purpose, if you want to see it this way, is to help you cultivate patience, be compassionate, and understand that we all must walk difficult and varied paths. Someone always has it worse than you. That guy in the suit may have been an absolute jackass, but perhaps there are things in his life that you don't know about, and have created conditions in which he must put on a false front. Some people are insecure like that.

There are lots of issues with drug use, but don't be so quick to judge - you've no idea their situation.


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## JosephB (May 24, 2013)

I've found that if you enter into any kind of interaction with a positive  attitude and expecting the best of people, you're more likely to get  it. People sense tension and a negative attitude and they react  accordingly. Expect the worst, and there's a good chance you'll get  that. It's a two way street.


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## Lewdog (May 24, 2013)

You misunderstand the point.  If they have a problem with drug use, and they are willing to risk their livelihood in order to sub-come to it, well that's one thing.  Now if they want to come into a store I'm working at, and they want to yell at me and tell me I'm selling them an inferior product because they fear they are going to fail their drug test because I'm not selling them the right product to help them cheat, that's something else.  That's not judging them.  That's telling them they need to quit projecting their problem on others and that they need to start dealing with it their selves.  In the end, by me not selling that guy his cranberry pills, and if he failed his drug test and lost his job, it could have been his wake up call to quit doing drugs and get his life together.  You can look at it any way you want, but there is never, and I mean never, a reason to treat other people badly.  There are excuses, but there is never a reason, and too many times people think excuses and reasons are the same thing, and they are not.


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## Lewdog (May 24, 2013)

JosephB said:


> I've found that if you enter into any kind of interaction with a positive  attitude and expecting the best of people, you're more likely to get  it. People sense tension and a negative attitude and they react  accordingly. Expect the worst, and there's a good chance you'll get  that. It's a two way street.



I received perfect secret shopper awards multiple times in several of the companies I worked for.  My attitude towards customers was never the problem with how I was treated back.  If I had a poor attitude I would have never gotten to the positions I did.


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## dale (May 24, 2013)

lol. i have the job where the absolute dregs of society are part of my daily routine. i manage one of those cheap daily/weekly rate motels you see alongthe side of any given highway. the people who rent here are the ones having affairs on their spouses, ones making drug deals, ex-cons, the clinically insane,etc. i just don't let people get to me like you do, lewdog. it's not worth my time or energy to care about what they do. i have the things in life that make mehappy. my daughter, wine, my writing, family, a few friends. if i were to let myself concentrate on the negativity around me, i'd be miserable like you. soi figure why be miserable?


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## JosephB (May 24, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> I received perfect secret shopper awards multiple  times in several of the companies I worked for.  My attitude towards  customers was never the problem with how I was treated back.  If I had a  poor attitude I would have never gotten to the positions I did.



I don’t know then -- it sure has worked for me -- and I’ve waited tables, bagged groceries, worked retail and fast food, delivered pizzas, worked on a landscaping crew and for a roofing company -- started and ran my own business, and now I work with very demanding customers who have a lot at stake -- often their jobs. In my experience, in the vast majority of interactions, people are mostly neutral -- and just want to get whatever it is they've paid for without any kind of hassle. Otherwise, I’ve come across some pretty nasty characters, and some fantastic people -- and just about everything in between.  Somehow I’ve managed to keep an open mind and take people as they come and judge them one at a time. Who’s to say why your outlook is so different. It takes all kinds, as they say.


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## Lewdog (May 24, 2013)

I guess the bottom line is, I have too high of expectations in people.  Let's just say that there are much deeper things about my life that has led to my feelings.  My family life wasn't exactly conventional, and my relationships with both my parents weren't great.  My mother cheated on my father and has been married to the man she did it with for over twenty years.  They now draw about $3,500 a month and spend about $3,000 a month on their drug habit and that's all they care about.  

As many people have said to me in this thread, you just don't know all the issues that are going on.  Things are just much, much deeper.


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## Kevin (May 24, 2013)

On the bright side--if it weren't for messed up people I don't think I'd have anything to write about.


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## JosephB (May 24, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> I guess the bottom line is, I have too high of  expectations in people.  Let's just say that there are much deeper  things about my life that has led to my feelings.  My family life wasn't  exactly conventional, and my relationships with both my parents weren't  great.  My mother cheated on my father and has been married to the man  she did it with for over twenty years.  They now draw about $3,500 a  month and spend about $3,000 a month on their drug habit and that's all  they care about.
> 
> As many people have said to me in this thread, you just don't know all  the issues that are going on.  Things are just much, much  deeper.



I'm not trying to give you a hard time -- but that doesn't compute to me. You've formed your negative opinions about people based on a tough childhood -- but you somehow you have high expectations of people? Because usually it's the opposite.

And it's difficult, but some people can overcome a bad childhood. As I've mentioned here, my wife grew up hand-to-mouth, her dad died when she was 9, by all accounts he was a decent man, but her mother neglected her and was often AWOL -- when she wasn't bringing home one in an endless succession of boyfriends and "fiances." Not only is my wife somehow a great mom -- she's one of the most compassionate and open-minded people I know -- sometimes to a fault.

And my dad was sober the last decade of his life, but was an alcoholic and was at best emotionally AWOL when were growing up. We had all the problems to deal with that you associate with alcoholism. Out of 6 kids, I have one sister who dwells on it and blames him for all her problems. The rest of us have managed to move on -- and long before he quit drinking. I'm not trying to minimize your issues -- just saying that many adults manage to overcome difficult childhoods and find some kind of contentment.


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## Lewdog (May 24, 2013)

JosephB said:


> I'm not trying to give you a hard time -- but that doesn't compute to me. You've formed your negative opinions about people based on a tough childhood -- but you somehow you have high expectations of people? Because usually it's the opposite.
> 
> And it's difficult, but some people can overcome a bad childhood. As I've mentioned here, my wife grew up hand-to-mouth, her dad died when she was 9, by all accounts he was a decent man, but her mother neglected her and was often AWOL -- when she wasn't bringing home one in an endless succession of boyfriends and "fiances." Not only is my wife somehow a great mom -- she's one of the most compassionate and open-minded people I know -- sometimes to a fault.
> 
> And my dad was sober the last decade of his life, but was an alcoholic and was at best emotionally AWOL when were growing up. We had all the problems to deal with that you associate with alcoholism. Out of 6 kids, I have one sister who dwells on it and blames him for all her problems. The rest of us have managed to move on -- and long before he quit drinking. I'm not trying to minimize you issues -- just saying that many adults manage to overcome difficult childhoods and find some kind of contentment.



You are forgetting something very important here.  A person's mental make-up is not just built on how they were nurtured, their is also genetics involved.  Many mental illnesses are genetic and come from chemical imbalances.  For some reason I have a type of depression that is long term and I have had it all my life.  They say it is treatment resistant and my every day mood is always naturally lower than a normal person's.  It has to do with the serotonin receptor cell's of my brain not functioning correctly.  Serotonin has many important functions, one of which it helps a person feel good.  So if my brain synapses don't absorb serotonin like it's supposed to, then I don't feel good like other people.  

So when you combine a childhood that included an alcoholic father who worked third shift and slept all day, a mother that worked a job on the road most of the time that cheated on my father, a divorce, living in a neighborhood with all children about 5 years older that beat the snot out of me daily...and various other life issues up to this point, then add in the genetic factors, you can start to see why I don't have the same coping skills some others might have.  I can sit here today, and tell you that I might have chuckled, or smiled, but I have not had truly a happy moment in fourteen years.  That's when I took my then girlfriend to a bed and breakfast in Yellowsprings, Ohio, and we visited Clifton Gorge and John Bryan State Park.  It was a great weekend.  That's the kind of life I lead every day.  I just want to be happy, and it's a really hard thing to achieve.


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## JosephB (May 24, 2013)

Well, I'm not forgetting anything. I might have missed it, but I didn't notice that you said anything about your "mental make-up."


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## Lewdog (May 24, 2013)

JosephB said:


> Well, I'm not forgetting anything. I might have missed it, but I didn't notice that you said anything about your "mental make-up."



Oh I hadn't, but all the focus has been on the nurturing process, and people were not thinking about the other.  I have mentioned it before though.


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## Kevin (May 24, 2013)

I suppose I could possibly, maybe, see how things might appear slightly skewed in a non-positive direction for you.


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## Gargh (May 24, 2013)

JosephB said:


> I don’t know then -- it sure has worked for me -- and I’ve waited tables, bagged groceries, worked retail and fast food, delivered pizzas, worked on a landscaping crew and for a roofing company -- started and ran my own business, and now I work with very demanding customers who have a lot at stake -- often their jobs. In my experience, in the vast majority of interactions, people are mostly neutral -- and just want to get whatever it is they've paid for without any kind of hassle. Otherwise, I’ve come across some pretty nasty characters, and some fantastic people -- and just about everything in between.  Somehow I’ve managed to keep an open mind and take people as they come and judge them one at a time. Who’s to say why your outlook is so different. It takes all kinds, as they say.



It works... most of the time. Sometimes people are just too broken or too wrapped up in their problems to do anything other than look for someone to kick and in certain types of customer-facing roles you're more susceptible to meeting them. Working in a casino, I worked with addicts. No matter what people tell you, the majority of casino-goers in the UK are addicts and do not reason, do not get anything back for their money and usually ruin their lives. The people I worked with would mostly all eventually collapse or self-medicate with drugs or alcohol and become addicts themselves. A few can deal with it - the naturally oblivious and thick-skinned - but not many people can stand up to day in day out at least one of the customers screaming in pain at your table and saying it's your fault. You can't help but care, they're people, and yet they seem to hate you and want to hurt you - and I've seen it happen to all the employees, good and bad. That's an extreme example, and a horrible shame, but all I'm saying is sometimes there are some very valid reasons why people end up feeling like that. It's a trough, and I certainly wouldn't advocate staying there, but it happens with cause as often as not and it can be a struggle to overcome.


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## JosephB (May 24, 2013)

I guess I’m not too surprised that a casino would be an environment that would bring out the worst in people. And I’m very familiar with the mentality of addicts and how they behave. Their primary concern is their drug of choice -- and that includes gambling.

And some people behave badly and they haven’t suffered any kind of hardships. In fact, it’s the opposite – they’ve never encountered any real obstacles, and they feel entitled. When things don’t go their way, they act like jerks. Like I said, it takes all kinds. Sometimes all we can do is keep our side of the street clean and hope for the best.


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## JosephB (May 24, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> Oh I hadn't, but all the focus has been on the nurturing process, and people were not thinking about the other.  I have mentioned it before though.



It rings a bell, now that you mention it. I now also remember I recommended a book called _Feeling Good, The New Mood Therapy._ It’s mostly aimed at people who suffer from depression -- and  it’s about cognitive therapy -- recognizing and overcoming negative thinking patterns. A therapist recommended it to my wife and me when we were in grief counseling. My wife especially was having a very tough time dealing with losing a child and with postpartum depression -- and she found the book to be very helpful.

The author is for real -- he’s a professor of psychiatry at Stanford -- and many mental healthcare professionals recommend this book. It’s all practical information -- it’s not about cheesy affirmations etc. like so many self-help books.

And really, anyone could benefit from reading it, because we all get mired in negative thinking from time-to-time. I’ve mostly memorized the 10 Cognitive Distortions -- and when I’m in a funk over something, very often I can attribute it to one of them, even if it might be less extreme than how they’re phrased. #5 especially. I'll get a cryptic message from a client -- and maybe have a hard time reaching him -- and before I do, my evenings been ruined and I've been up half the night worrying that we've lost the business. #6 is another thing I used to have a bad habit of doing.

You could at least check it out on Amazon and read the reviews. Last time I checked, there were several reviews in which people credited the book with saving their lives. If you check it out, don’t get it mixed up with _The Feeling Good Handbook_ -- that’s more of a companion reference for after you read the first one, I think.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0380810336/?tag=writingforu06-20


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## PiP (May 24, 2013)

Hi Lew,

I was going to comment, but reading those made by others I think everything has been covered. It's really up to you now to take control of your life. I'll send you a PM

PiP


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## Ariel (May 24, 2013)

Lew, I'm sorry you're having such a hard time.  Depression is nothing to sneeze at--no matter the source.  

I have also dealt with grief-related depression and every day is a struggle.  It is very easy to see the negative in people and very easy to get mired in that negativity.

Sadly, the depression also becomes familiar--it can feel comforting.

My mother never worked through her grief.  She turned to alcohol and drug abuse.  I have recently learned that she was having an affair and that my parents' relationship was far more rocky than I believed.  Since my mother's death I've been struggling with reconciling the morality (fidelity in relationships, honesty, etc) that my mother taught me and who she was as a person. I forgive her because I realize that she was unable to deal with her depression.  She did not bend and work with the storms her life threw at her--she broke.

Lew, please don't break.


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## Lewdog (May 24, 2013)

pigletinportugal said:


> Hi Lew,
> 
> I was going to comment, but reading those made by others I think everything has been covered. It's really up to you now to take control of your life. I'll send you a PM
> 
> PiP



Don't take this wrong PiP, but would you tell a person with cancer it's up to them to take control of their life and get it under control?  This is one of the first kinds of things people like me are told in treatment.  I know it is hard for some people to work their mind around, but there are different types of depression, and some are genetic just the same as a disease...well it IS a disease.  Now before all kinds of people jump on me for comparing depression to cancer, yes cancer kills people, but so does depression.  It's almost killed me three times, I'll not get into details.  

Amsawtell, thank goodness I don't do drugs, and I don't drink very often.  I don't even use any kind of tobacco products.  I do however have an addictive personality when it comes to certain things.  I have been told it was part of my bi-polar problem that I had never realized into the last few years.  My life hasn't always been as low as it is now.  When I turned 21 my cousin took me to a strip club, and after that I was hooked.  I would go two to three times a week, spending $400 to $500 a week.  I'm not exaggeration.  That's over $20,000 a year, and I did that for about two years straight until I started dating someone.  Even after that, between dating people I would start going to the clubs again.  Then after awhile I started gambling.  It started out at $50 a game betting on football and college basketball, about 14-15 games a weeks.  Eventually that went up to $100 a game, then $200 a game, and I would get to the point where I would bet $1,000 a game.  At this same time, I began going to the casino.  I became a pretty good blackjack player.  At one point I would go to the casino TWICE a day.  I would get up first thing in the morning and go to the casino, get a comp ticket to eat lunch, drive home and do some things, then come back for a night cap.  There were some nights I would never go home.  One time I started with $1,500 dollars, and in two weeks of playing my system of betting, it had grown to $19,000.  That's when I got stupid.  I thought if I doubled my way of betting I could really cash in.  In two days I lost it all.  I lost $8,000 on one hand.  Thank goodness I don't have that problem anymore.

I'm not trying to have a pity party here.  I'm sorry if any of it comes across that way.  It's just when I get certain comments about how to get over things, I appreciate it, but it's not as easy as it sounds.  I've lost almost everything I've owned in my life four times, and had start completely over.  It's hard, it's real hard.


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## Angelicpersona (May 24, 2013)

Lew, just remember that for every person who is hateful to you for whatever reason, there's a person who is just dying inside and not saying anything about it. I work in an industry where I get to meet people at the end of their lives, and hearing their stories sometimes is amazing. Yes, there are a few self entitled pricks, I will grant you that, but you just really really have no idea what anyone is going through at any time.
I know it's hard to keep that sort of thing in perspective, and when it feels like life is handing you a raw deal it makes it even worse. There have been times in my past where I just didn't want to get out of bed, and I'm the sort of person that if you asked anyone who knows me except my husband they'd say "Her? Get depressed? No way." I led a fairly charmed growing up life, but from the time I was almost 17 until just recently it literally felt like the world at large was out to get me. The only person who knows everything is my hubby, because he was there helping me pick up the pieces after the horrible stuff that started it all and lived with me through the rest of it. I could have turned to alcohol, or drugs, or become a complete "witch with a b", but I'm not. I work the night shift at a seniors home because I love waking my residents up in the morning with a big smile to get their days going right. I try very hard to always find a kind word to say and to skim over the bad that happened because it happened, it's over, this is a new day.
I don't know if this is going to make much sense because I just got up from sleeping and my head is pounding, but I hope it does. And this is the advice that I'd give to you: look for the good in your life. In the end, that's what you'll remember most. Don't forget about your past, but don't dwell on it. Remembering the bad stuff that has happened is going to do nothing but make you miserable. And always remember that if you have a bad day, the sun will rise on a new one soon enough.
And that's the end of my insanely happy advice. I hope you take it for what it's worth =)


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## Ariel (May 24, 2013)

Angelic has a good point.  In the end, I think it was obsessing over things that drove my mom to the things she did.  It was the horror, the guilt, and the helplessness.  I had to watch her self-destruct for twelve years because she couldn't see the good in life anymore.  It was hard, real hard.  Near the end, even I wasn't good enough.

I still have days where the grief overtakes me and it's a long hard climb out of that hole.  Lew, we're here, trying to support you.  We know it's not easy--several of us have shared our depression stories with you.  We're not sharing to gain pity either, we're sharing because sharing that experience can sometimes help lighten the load.  If you need to vent or let things out you can pm me.  I might not answer with anything insightful but I will read it.


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## PiP (May 25, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> Don't take this wrong PiP, but would you tell a person with cancer it's up to them to take control of their life and get it under control?



Hi Lew, that's entirely different. 

As for depression, I am fully aware there are different types and can affect people in different ways. 

Please hang in there Lews.

Hugs from Pip


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## TheYellowMustang (May 25, 2013)

> I just don't know, I'm lonely stuck in a place I don't want to be, depending on other people, and waiting for something that is out of my control that will change my life.  I've never felt so helpless.  All I ever want is to be able to control my own life and destiny.



I'm just another naive, 21 year-old who knows nothing of troubles quite that dark, but since I am a human who understand humans, I'll give it a go  Just know, this advice might be completely useless and off topic, but oh well. 


I've never been in a deep depression, but sometimes I can get a feeling in my bones that can last for weeks - like the world is trying to swallow me whole. I don't know how exactly I get out of them, but I do know that when I am at my happiest, it is when I socialize with the POSITIVE people in my life that I know without a doubt that I am friends with because I love them, not just because they live conveniently nearby or because we're childhood friends. I read an article about my personality type, and it said that it's very typical for personalities like me to stay friends with people I don't like. Immediately I thought of two of the people I spent most of my time with! I ruthlessly cut them out, and I feel like the quality of my social life has improved drastically. Try not to let the negative people get to you, and know this: There are people in the world who are inherently good and worth getting to know. 

If you are with people you don't want to be with, at a place you don't want to be, be ruthless. Leave it behind if you can. 

Here comes the silly part... For me, something that has truly helped my happiness, is to toss away the idea that I have to "make something of myself" and "make sure the world remembers me". I think a healthy dose of naivety and low expectations is key. That sounds horribly depressing, but I don't mean it that way in the least. What I mean by "low expectations" is to celebrate the small victories: You wrote a good chapter? Excellent! Think of all the people in the world who can't do what you just did. 

And most importantly, remember that not all days will be like this. Life isn't this hard - not generally. 

Are you an introvert? Most writers are.
From "The Introvert Advantage": The strongest distinguishing characteristic of introverts is their energy source: Introverts draw energy from their internal world of ideas, emotions, and impressions. They are energy conservers. They can be easily overstimulated by the external world, experiencing the uncomfortable feeling of "too much." This can feel like antsyness or torpor. In either case, they need to limit their social experience so they don't get drained. However, introverts need to balance their alone time with outside time, or they can lose other perspectives and connections."

Introverts, and especially writers who are so used to constantly taking in new impressions and analyzing the world, can often get lost in their own head. This is a trap you shouldn't fall into. If you keep searching for evil, you'll always find it. If you start searching for good, I believe you'll always find that too. 

I hope you feel better soon  Remember, the world is a beautiful place.


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## JosephB (May 25, 2013)

I actually know people with bi-polar who have been through some incredible hardships, who are now managing to cope with it day-to-day to the point where they can find some kind of contentment. These are people who are also in recovery after years of addiction and self-medicating.

I think they have one thing in common -- they’ve managed to put the past behind them and more importantly, they’ve managed to overcome the belief that bad things are inevitable and that the world is somehow against them. And although they have additional significant hurdles, I’m convinced they learned to do it like everyone else who is in recovery -- including me -- and that’s through a concerted effort to change the way they think -- especially when it comes to dwelling on past events in a way that sets them up for failure.

In these cases, one thing is key -- they can accept the strength and experience and hope of others as means of support and guidance -- and that includes not minimizing everyone else’s issues and holding steadfast to the idea that no one else understands. And then based on that, coming to the conclusion that any advice offered can’t possibly be of value.

These are things I’ve seen people do and have experienced on some level -- this is not stuff I’ve read about or seen on TV. What these people have done is _change their thinking_ in a way that allows them to wrestle down the demons of the past, and also get beyond preconceived ideas about people in general and their motivations. They've realized they need to do these things not only to stay clean and sober -- but to increase the chances that their biological mental disorder can be treated more effectively. There is no doubt -- the disease is real -- but no matter how difficult or traumatic past events can be -- they are just that -- past. People can and they do move on. It's basically the same deal with projecting and expecting the worst -- worrying about things that haven't and may never happen. And of course, no one says it’s easy.


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## Jon M (May 25, 2013)

YellowMustang said:
			
		

> Immediately I thought of two of the people I spent most of my time with!  I ruthlessly cut them out, and I feel like the quality of my social  life has improved drastically. Try not to let the negative people get to  you, and know this: There are people in the world who are inherently  good and worth getting to know.


While I agree that it is best to surround oneself with good, positive people, something about this statement really bothers me. Just seems to reduce people to cardboard, almost -- black and white, negative and positive -- mere things that one can cut from their life and forget about, and I think that's a rather tragic view of people and life in general. 

I know you probably didn't mean it that way, but I just found myself objecting to that notion.


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## Ariel (May 25, 2013)

JosephB said:


> In these cases, one thing is key -- they can accept the strength and experience and hope of others as means of support and guidance -- and *that includes not minimizing everyone else's issues and holding steadfast to the idea that no one else understands. And then based on that, coming to the conclusion that any advice offered can't possibly be of value.*


I lost my brother when I was fifteen.  His death was one of the first times I had to deal with the death of a loved one.  In grief counseling, at school, there was another girl who had lost her father.  She said during one session, "I hate when people say, 'I know how you must feel.  They don't know how I feel, even if they lost someone; because their situation isn't exactly the same."

At the time, I agreed with her.  How could someone who hasn't lost the same person, with the same relationship, in the same way ever possibly relate?  Then I lost several other family members including my mother.  I realize, now, that she was _wrong_.  I did understand how she felt and she understood how I felt.  *I understood because the emotions were the same.*

I realized this before my mother died.  And when she started to tell my father and I that we couldn't understand what she'd lost when she lost my brother and that therapists couldn't help her I could only think of that hurting fifteen-year old girl in the school counseler's office.  I felt, for the first time, older, wiser, and more mature than my mother.

I wish it was a lesson she could have learned, maybe she could have recovered.

All of my past aside, I think that if you're dealing with grief or depression that you should seek help--whether you think your counselor can help you or not.  Find a support system.  While depression and grief is nothing to minimize and not every treatment is effective for every person seeking help is the best advice.  Don't give up.


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## dale (May 25, 2013)

Jon M said:


> While I agree that it is best to surround oneself with good, positive people, something about this statement really bothers me. Just seems to reduce people to cardboard, almost -- black and white, negative and positive -- mere things that one can cut from their life and forget about, and I think that's a rather tragic view of people and life in general. I know you probably didn't mean it that way, but I just found myself objecting to that notion.


i understand her sentiment, though. i've had to do it myself. people i really cared about. people i considered family. they became cocaine addictsand wouldn't stop. everytime they came around, it was like black voodoo. bad things would happen to me, and i wasn't even on the crap. finally,i was like "bye....see ya....don't want you back around my house. ever........" it's better to cut the incorrigibly negative out of your life, else they drag you down with them.


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## Lewdog (May 25, 2013)

JosephB said:


> In these cases, one thing is key -- they can accept the strength and experience and hope of others as means of support and guidance -- and that includes not minimizing everyone else’s issues and holding steadfast to the idea that no one else understands. And then based on that, coming to the conclusion that any advice offered can’t possibly be of value.



This statement is exactly why I rarely show my feelings with people.  I'm not minimizing ANYONE else's issues.  Positive reinforcement, and being surrounded by a good support group is only one part of dealing with depression.  Fact is, there are several people on here that don't understand depression.  There is a distinct difference between sadness, sorrow, mourning, and depression.  Depression is actually a mental illness, and there are several different types.  Sadness, sorrow, and mourning will eventually go away, depression is forever.  Some of the first three may creep back up at different times during a person's life, when remembering certain memories, but those are separate occasions and not part of one big long-term problem.  This statement angers me a lot, because this is exactly what you DON'T do when someone is having a bad time.  You don't get mad because they don't cheer right up, and start attacking them for not accepting what you have to say as 'the answer.'

I doubt there are very many people on here that have the same amount of knowledge and experience I have regarding depression.  I've been in and out of counseling for fourteen years now.  I'm also only one semester short of a degree in Sociology, which shares many courses with Psychology and works hand and hand.  I've had three suicide attempts, and two other times that were pretty close.  I've been in a mental health facility undergoing extensive treatment five times, where you have to go to a long list of 'classes,' you deal with group therapy, one on one meetings with doctors about medicines, and also one on one sessions with therapist.  I've heard and practiced almost every possible therapy you can imagine for depression, anxiety, anger, sadness, and any other emotion or situation you could possibly imagine.  I have tried and taken almost every possible medicine for depression and bi-polar disorder there is, and the medicines that people take to combat the side effects.  So yes, if I say that there are some people in here that don't understand that you can't just get over depression with happy thoughts, I'm not minimizing their issues, I'm trying to teach them the truth.  

Truth be told, I should be dead.  I'm not saying this, the doctor told me so.  He said I was one of the luckiest people he has ever known.  Not only did I not die, but he was 100% certain I would need a liver transplant.  He said it was a miracle that in a matter of hours, my liver was able to cleanse itself.  This is why it angers me to see innocent children taken by natural disasters, or people who will go through the worst treatments out there in order to hope to live, yet they die.  Here I was, someone who wanted and TRIED to die, but was saved by some kind of miracle.  Suicide and what leads up to a suicide attempt isn't something that a person that has never done can relate to.  Have you ever taken two-hundred Tylenol sleeping pills?  Have you ever taken 200 regular sleeping pills?  Have you ever taken 50 morphine pills?  Have you ever had a loaded, safety off, 40mm Glock in your mouth with your finger on the trigger?  Have you ever made a noose, then stuck your neck in it to test if it would hold you?  Have you ever looked at a picture of your loved ones, laid down, and then closed your eyes for what you thought would be the very last time?  Do you think if a person hasn't done those things, they can understand?

I'm going to close with this, when is the last time you were happy?  Take that moment and remember it, embrace it, and try to relish is again.  Now take that same feeling, and imagine not feeling that way for 14 years.  Is that something easy to wrap your mind around?  People don't believe me, but it's true.  I'm not sure what it will ever take to make me happy again, it's been so long, I'm not sure if I will be able to recognize it when it happens.  All I can do for right now is take the couple of things that I am waiting on and see how it goes.  From there on, I just don't know.


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## JosephB (May 25, 2013)

Of course, all that really sucks. But all we see is you making a lot general statements about how bad people are etc.etc., and how rough you’ve had it, and then you throw in something about being bi-polar – all the while you’re more or less dismissing the comments of people who are just trying to help you or offer a little encouragement.

Sorry -- but if people don’t know your history it all does come off like a pity party. So yeah – maybe shouldn’t “show your feelings” unless you’re willing to tell people what you’re dealing with up front. People aren’t mind readers -- and maybe you could save everyone a whole bunch of time.


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## JosephB (May 25, 2013)

amsawtell said:


> I lost my brother when I was fifteen.  His death was one of the first times I had to deal with the death of a loved one.  In grief counseling, at school, there was another girl who had lost her father.  She said during one session, "I hate when people say, 'I know how you must feel.  They don't know how I feel, even if they lost someone; because their situation isn't exactly the same."
> 
> At the time, I agreed with her.  How could someone who hasn't lost the same person, with the same relationship, in the same way ever possibly relate?  Then I lost several other family members including my mother.  I realize, now, that she was _wrong_.  I did understand how she felt and she understood how I felt.  *I understood because the emotions were the same.*
> 
> ...



I went through the same thought process. We lost our child at 10 weeks -- having her die in our arms was the worst and most traumatic thing that ever happened to us. But in group counseling, I started listening to other parents tell their stories -- like the mom whose 8 year old was killed by a drunk driver in an accident in which she was also seriously injured. I felt like I didn't belong in a group with people like that. For several sessions, I never said anything, and when I finally did, I basically expressed those feelings. I was amazed by what those other parents told me -- which is about what you said -- it's your grief, it's what you know -- and the emotions are the same. Don't try to minimize them because you think other people have it worse. Hearing that, I really felt like a burden had been lifted -- and that's when I really started to allow my self to accept help from others and begin to work through the grieving process.


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## dale (May 25, 2013)

JosephB said:


> I went through the same thought process. We lost our child at 10 weeks -- having her die in our arms was the worst and most traumatic thing that ever happened to us. But in group counseling, I started listening to other parents tell their stories -- like the mom whose 8 year old was killed by a drunk driver in an accident in which she was also seriously injured. I felt like I didn't belong in a group with people like that. For several sessions, I never said anything, and when I finally did, I basically expressed those feelings. I was amazed by what those other parents told me -- which is about what you said -- it's your grief, it's what you know -- and the emotions are the same. Don't try to minimize them because you think other people have it worse. Hearing that, I really felt like a burden had been lifted -- and that's when I really started to allow my self to accept help from others and begin to work through the grieving process.



wow, joe. i'm really sorry about what you went through. i'm actually becoming a bit teary eyed thinking about what you went through with that.
i think my mind would have snapped had that happened to me. glad you were strong enough to somehow pull through.


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## Ariel (May 25, 2013)

I went through the same process of accepting other peoples' emotional grief as being the same as my own.  Yes, I had other situations that excaberated my own emotions but I think that it was accepting that other people have felt the same emotions that I felt that truly made me work through my grief.

My mother, on the other hand, did not.  She was also diagnosed with clinical depression.  She refused to take medication or go for treatment.  She made her situation worse by spiraling into drug use.  While I may not have suffered from clinical depression, I have lived with someone suffering from depression.  It isn't easy.


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## Lewdog (May 25, 2013)

Yes that is a tragedy, and I'm sincere saying that.  Like I said earlier, I still get angry at the idea that for some reason I was saved but people who deserve more don't.  Now what you are talking about is grief, and not depression.  Grief is a tough process, but it is a process where the last step is acceptance.  It doesn't minimalize the horrible things that happen and the loved ones we lose, but the grieving process helps people to go on with their lives.


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## Pluralized (May 25, 2013)

JosephB said:


> Don't try to minimize them because you think other people have it worse.



Man, Joe - my heart goes out to you bro. That is some heavy stuff.


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## Rustgold (May 26, 2013)

JosephB said:


> I don’t know then -- it sure has worked for me -- and I’ve waited tables, bagged groceries, worked retail and fast food, delivered pizzas, worked on a landscaping crew and for a roofing company -- started and ran my own business, and now I work with very demanding customers who have a lot at stake -- often their jobs. In my experience, in the vast majority of interactions, people are mostly neutral -- and just want to get whatever it is they've paid for without any kind of hassle.


Try working as a taxi driver on Friday & Saturday nights for an extended period of time, and tell us whether you'll have the same perspective. It's totally different to retail, and I know because at one time I did operate a retail business.  And there's a reason why taxi drivers become racist on the job (when they aren't previously).

You want to say something works, then try it in an actual hostile environment.  Only then can you give proper insight.


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## JosephB (May 26, 2013)

dale said:


> wow, joe. i'm really sorry about what you went through. i'm actually becoming a bit teary eyed thinking about what you went through with that.
> i think my mind would have snapped had that happened to me. glad you were strong enough to somehow pull through.



I didn't snap, but I had a lot of anger to work through. And that I  could eventually deal with the loss wasn't as much about me being strong  as being around people who offered their strength and my willingness to  accept it. And it was at my wife's insistence that we go to grief  counseling -- so she gets credit for that. Through group, we were  encouraged to go to a marriage counselor who specialized in grief  issues. We were pretty young and just married -- I'm not sure we would  have stayed together without that additional help. Anyway, we now have  two healthy, great kids -- so it's all good.


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## JosephB (May 26, 2013)

Rustgold said:


> Try working as a taxi driver on Friday & Saturday nights for an extended period of time, and tell us whether you'll have the same perspective. It's totally different to retail, and I know because at one time I did operate a retail business.  And there's a reason why taxi drivers become racist on the job (when they aren't previously).
> 
> You want to say something works, then try it in an actual hostile environment.  Only then can you give proper insight.



Yes -- I doubt having a positive outlook in that kind of environment would make much difference in how the majority of customers react to you. It probably wouldn’t work very well if you were a bill collector or wrote parking tickets either.

There are obviously environments and situations that bring out the worst in people -- and where you see the worst kinds of people. And I can understand how folks can get jaded working certain jobs  --  but anyone who has the capacity to think outside their own experience and maintain any kind of objectivity would likely see that how most people behave in a given situation isn’t a reflection of humanity as a whole -- and that’s primarily what we were talking about. And even how you see someone behave on a given day or in a certain situation doesn’t necessarily reflect how they behave day-to-day.

So what’s your point? That making some effort to maintain a positive attitude toward people in the majority of retail or customer service situation is a waste of time and effort? Because again, from what I’ve seen, it just makes sense -- even if you have to fake it sometimes or try a little harder to keep your emotions in check. And of course, it would be silly to think it was foolproof or that it would work in every situation. Seriously -- sometimes you have to apply a little common sense.

Otherwise, some people, for whatever reason, have a skewed and negative view of people or life in general and believe that people are mostly bad -- and they’d feel that way even if they worked in a candy store. People who truly have "proper insight " know that's not the reality -- and they can maintain a more balanced outlook.


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## Lewdog (May 28, 2013)

Haha I can't even create a "How was your week?" thread without it getting derailed.

People are fundamentally flawed, and are inherently selfish and evil.  It's not a matter of "proper insight," the point I made has been widely accepted since the first history of the world was ever written.


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## Ariel (May 29, 2013)

I think that flawed is a good way to put it but inherently evil?  No.  I don't believe so.  We defined good and evil, we reinforce our ideals of good and evil through our society.  Yes, there are things that are inherently wrong--but why are they wrong? Because for us to commit those acts wholesale is dangerous for the community overall.


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## Lewdog (May 29, 2013)

Pride, Lust, Greed, Envy, and Gluttony are all considered sins and thus evil.  All of these can be considered part of selfish.  It's much easier to be evil than good in this world.  It's also seems like a bigger deal when someone does something good, because we are constantly surrounded by evil.


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## Angelicpersona (May 29, 2013)

This last statement of yours makes me think you're either looking way too hard, or surrounded by the wrong people.


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## Blade (May 29, 2013)

Angelicpersona said:


> This last statement of yours makes me think you're either looking way too hard, or surrounded by the wrong people.


It could be some of both but I would tend to think it is more the latter. At some point, if you expect your life to have any real buoyancy, you have to have a very serious look at your human associations and your choices in that realm. Nothing more lethal than clinging to relationships that only serve to negate your own ends.


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## Ariel (May 29, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> Pride, Lust, Greed, Envy, and Gluttony are all considered sins and thus evil.  All of these can be considered part of selfish.  It's much easier to be evil than good in this world.  It's also seems like a bigger deal when someone does something good, because we are constantly surrounded by evil.


Is that the way it truly is, or is it because bad news is what sells?  I think we get a skewed perspective of the world.  We don't hear about the missionaries who are helping educate third-world children or give them clean water, we don't hear about the guy that woke up his family to save them from a fire, or about the politician who gives all his money to charity.  We don't hear about the every day people who give all their Sunday evenings to feed the hungry--who pay for the food out of their own pockets because they would rather see a child with a full belly.

Yes, we're all selfish.  Yes, altruism for the sake of altruism is rare but so are the truly heinous acts.


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## JosephB (May 29, 2013)

Theologians, philosophers and scientists  have been trying to answer this question for millennia – and of course, there’s no consensus. The only thing you can say with any certainty is that most often people are as good or bad as what their environment, and to some degree, their physiology dictates.

Beyond that, and for whatever reason, some people are only going to see what they’ve been conditioned to see by personal experience -- while others have the capacity to look beyond that. The latter group will generally come to the conclusion that people can be good or bad -- and every shade of gray in between – and that how well they get along in the world largely depends on actively maintaining some level of objectivity.

The idea that any of us could answer the question definitively when so many have tried and can offer nothing more than theories is pretty odd to me. Probably why I don’t even try. I just do my best to take people as they come -- and form my opinions one person at a time. Until someone shows me otherwise, I’m going to assume an individual has good intentions -- while exercising reasonable caution.

The steadfast belief that all people are bad or evil is mostly a defense mechanism -- understandable in some cases -- but often people who believe that can’t see how their own behavior, decision-making and actions affect their relationships with other people -- and how bad outcomes can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. But some people are going to believe what they need or have to believe to cope. Otherwise, there are Holocaust survivors who still believe that people are basically good -- so who am I to say?


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## philistine (May 29, 2013)

JosephB said:


> *I've found that if you enter into any kind of interaction with a positive  attitude and expecting the best of people, you're more likely to get  it.* People sense tension and a negative attitude and they react  accordingly. Expect the worst, and there's a good chance you'll get  that. It's a two way street.



Absolutely this. I remember walking around a local flea market with my good friend and his partner. Every time I made a purchase, I smiled, made idle chit-chat with the seller, and bade them a good day. My friend and his partner remarked several times that I was 'so polite to everyone', as if I was the most unusual thing in the world. Guess what? I treated everyone fine that day, and I got the same treatment in return.

It seldom happens that I'll give such treatment to someone and have them essentially shut me down with a solemn face- but it does happen. Not often, but it happens. What you put it in, you will almost always get out. 

For what it's worth, I struggled with a lot of things earlier in my life (depression, crippling anxiety, agoraphobia, et al) which really painted my perception black at the time. I had it in my head that people were worthless turds, and they should be treated accordingly. I'm a cynic, too, in that I can joke about these things sometimes- but when push comes to shove, you'd be surprised how much of a falsity that belief really is.


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## Ariel (May 29, 2013)

Lew, I would like to help you--I really would, but I don't think you actually want anyone's help.  Good luck.


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## JosephB (May 29, 2013)

philistine said:


> Absolutely this. I remember walking around a local flea market with my good friend and his partner. Every time I made a purchase, I smiled, made idle chit-chat with the seller, and bade them a good day. My friend and his partner remarked several times that I was 'so polite to everyone', as if I was the most unusual thing in the world. Guess what? I treated everyone fine that day, and I got the same treatment in return.
> 
> It seldom happens that I'll give such treatment to someone and have them essentially shut me down with a solemn face- but it does happen. Not often, but it happens. What you put it in, you will almost always get out.
> 
> For what it's worth, I struggled with a lot of things earlier in my life (depression, crippling anxiety, agoraphobia, et al) which really painted my perception black at the time. I had it in my head that people were worthless turds, and they should be treated accordingly. I'm a cynic, too, in that I can joke about these things sometimes- but when push comes to shove, you'd be surprised how much of a falsity that belief really is.



The other thing people can do to change their outlook is get involved in something where they're helping other people. It helps you to get outside your own head and puts some perspective on your own problems. And you'll be around people who have a more positive view of things. Most importantly, you'll be contributing something good to the world instead of just complaining about other people and the general state of things -- and adding to the negativity.


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## Kevin (May 29, 2013)

philistine;1633555

 with a lot of things earlier in my life (depression said:
			
		

> Do I detect a certain sense of nostalgia? I could, if you want, sell you something and then tap into that whole late 70s/early 80s "Snide Generation" thing  to give a proper response. Which will it be...a comment about your clothes or physical appearance, a scowl and a "Sounds like a personal problem", or the ever popular (and ageless) snooty smirk of disdain with the unspoken "you are as relevant as gum on my shoe-- be off with you."? Let me know with a P.M. and we can discuss prices...


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## philistine (May 29, 2013)

Kevin said:


> Do I detect a certain sense of nostalgia? I could, if you want, sell you something and then tap into that whole late 70s/early 80s "Snide Generation" thing  to give a proper response. Which will it be...a comment about your clothes or physical appearance, a scowl and a "Sounds like a personal problem", or the ever popular (and ageless) snooty smirk of disdain with the unspoken "you are as relevant as gum on my shoe-- be off with you."? Let me know with a P.M. and we can discuss prices...



I don't know what to say!


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## Lewdog (May 29, 2013)

amsawtell said:


> Lew, I would like to help you--I really would, but I don't think you actually want anyone's help.  Good luck.



We are no longer talking about me, but about society, and it has nothing to do with 'my problems.'  A lot of things in this thread amaze me because people just don't get the idea that some things can't just be 'helped.'  I've said it repeatedly but people continue to fail to listen.  I didn't write this thread for help.  I wrote it to tell how my week has been.  There isn't a soul in this thread that is going to be able to change my genetic makeup, just the same as you aren't going to be able to change the genetic makeup of someone that has any other type of disease.  I take counseling, I take medicine, I do all those things.  Do you think I WANT to feel miserable?  Do you think I WANT to have had some many times of my life sabotaged by mental illness?  

Repeatedly people have attacked me as not wanting help in this thread and yet they don't even understand the problem.  I've tried to educated people that there is a difference in what they perceive as depression, and what depression really is.  My problem isn't grief, as has been described here by many others.  Grief has nothing to do with a medical imbalance in the body.  Everyone at some point in their life will undergo grief.  Whether it is the loss of a loved one, divorce, loss of a job, loss of a pet, loss of an object, loss of anything like that will cause some degree of grief, but everyone goes through a cycle that will help them eventually move on with their life.  Not everyone will deal with the disease of depression, just like not everyone will deal with cancer, heart disease, or a stroke.  

I think before people continue to judge me, and say that I don't WANT help, they need to get better educated.

As for my view on the world, that has nothing to do with my mental illness.  I know there are some good people out there, I try to be one in normal life.  It's not easy, but when I am around people I try.  In this forum as a microcosm of society, I have a lot less power as to how I can be perceived by others and how I can control the way I am treated by others, which makes a big difference.  People here are very easily persuaded as to how someone is, in a very short period of time.

We could go on discussing why I have my philosophy of the world, but as far as my mental illness goes, if all people want to do is say I don't want help, when they don't even take the time and responsibility to educate their selves on the problem or pay attention to what I have already said, then please show a little more respect and quit attacking me.  Gumballs and rainbows don't fix physical problems.


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## Kevin (May 29, 2013)

I've got it. Simply send your depressed modem back to the manufacturer/Creator (hopefully it's still under warranty) He'll either send you a replacement or do a rebuild. In the meantime-- does anyone know of a reliable cryogenics salon?


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## Lewdog (May 29, 2013)

Kevin said:


> I've got it. Simply send your depressed modem back to the manufacturer/Creator (hopefully it's still under warranty) He'll either send you a replacement or do a rebuild. In the meantime-- does anyone know of a reliable cryogenics salon?



I'm actually on the phone with U-Verse for a separate issue.  I wish my modem manufacturer was more reliable!  U-Verse is horrible!


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## Sam (May 29, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> People are fundamentally flawed, and are inherently selfish and evil.  It's not a matter of "proper insight," the point I made has been widely accepted since the first history of the world was ever written.



Have you met all of the seven billion people who inhabit the planet? If not, this is a rather presumptive statement to make.


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## dale (May 29, 2013)

i can remember a time in my early 20s when i was essentially "in love with my own sadness". i thought society was the cause of my essentially morose mentality and blamed and attacked people in general because of it. but looking back, the times i felt others to be worthless were the times i felt myself to be worthless.


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## Pluralized (May 29, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> U-Verse is horrible!



I would submit to you that U-Verse is a beautiful, magical thing full of unicorns and striped salmon. Man, I'm hungry!


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## Lewdog (May 29, 2013)

Sam said:


> Have you met all of the seven billion people who inhabit the planet? If not, this is a rather presumptive statement to make.




Isn't this why Jesus died for our sins?


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## Rustgold (May 29, 2013)

Sam said:


> Have you met all of the seven billion people who inhabit the planet? If not, this is a rather presumptive statement to make.


Individuals may be fine on their own, but anytime a person becomes groups of people, things tend to get ugly.  A group of 7b people would be the ugliest fest ever.



Pluralized said:


> I would submit to you that U-Verse is a beautiful, magical thing full of unicorns and striped salmon. Man, I'm hungry!


 So you like to eat mutated goat/pony?  Don't you worry about why it's mutated?


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## Sam (May 29, 2013)

Lewdog said:
			
		

> Isn't this why Jesus died for our sins?



This isn't a debate about Jesus. 

I asked you a simple question: "Do you have a relationship with every single person on the face of the planet?" If the answer is 'no', your theory is flawed. I've met several people, both male and female, who couldn't do enough to help someone. One of my closest friends once stopped with a homeless man, invited him into the restaurant we were heading to, and gave him a free meal. She then handed the man the remainder of the money in her purse -- about fifty pounds. 

Is she inherently evil?


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## Kevin (May 29, 2013)

I think the point of 'Jesus' was that this view of inherent evil (selfish desire) is not original. And no, she doesen't sound selfish.


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## Lewdog (May 29, 2013)

Sam said:


> This isn't a debate about Jesus.
> 
> I asked you a simple question: "Do you have a relationship with every single person on the face of the planet?" If the answer is 'no', your theory is flawed. I've met several people, both male and female, who couldn't do enough to help someone. One of my closest friends once stopped with a homeless man, invited him into the restaurant we were heading to, and gave him a free meal. She then handed the man the remainder of the money in her purse -- about fifty pounds.
> 
> Is she inherently evil?




But you are asking questions that aren't related to the points I have already made.  I'm not trying to debate about Jesus.  The bible says everyone is a sinner.  "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."  Jesus died on the cross for all of mankind's sins.

You are building a straw man argument, based on something that I never said.


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## Sam (May 29, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> You are building a straw man argument, based on something that I never said.



You must have a short-term memory. 



			
				Lewdog said:
			
		

> People are fundamentally flawed



You didn't say _some _people or _most _people, you said _people. _That's a mighty brush you're using to tar every person on the planet.


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## Lewdog (May 29, 2013)

Sam said:


> You must have a short-term memory.
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't say _some _people or _most _people, you said _people. _That's a mighty brush you're using to tar every person on the planet.



Yes, I said people, and I said that according to the Bible, all people are sinners.  Sinning is evil.  People are inherently evil, they inherit the trait of being evil.  People can do good things and still be a sinner.  People are fundamentally flawed, no one is perfect.


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## Sam (May 29, 2013)

No one mentioned the Bible. You said that everyone is inherently evil. I don't give a toss what any book says. I've been around people all my life and I have yet to meet one who was unapologetically evil.


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## Lewdog (May 29, 2013)

Sam said:


> No one mentioned the Bible. You said that everyone is inherently evil. I don't give a toss what any book says. I've been around people all my life and I have yet to meet one who was unapologetically evil.



In post #48 I mentioned some of the sins of the Bible.  Whether I want to live my life based on the Bible or not, I have to respect the minds of the people that wrote it, and the fact they were some of the most respected, intelligent, and philosophical people in the history of the world.  

I worked as a prison guard for five years in Ohio and I have met people that were evil to the bone, and would have no second thoughts about slitting anyone's throat.


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## Kevin (May 29, 2013)

Sam said:


> ....unapologetically evil.


 You haven't met my ex-wife.


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## Sam (May 29, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> In post #48 I mentioned some of the sins of the Bible.  Whether I want to live my life based on the Bible or not, I have to respect the minds of the people that wrote it, and the fact they were some of the most respected, intelligent, and philosophical people in the history of the world.
> 
> I worked as a prison guard for five years in Ohio and I have met people that were evil to the bone, and would have no second thoughts about slitting anyone's throat.



You aren't getting the point. You said that everyone was inherently selfish and evil. Obviously some people are, but not everyone, and that's my point. And that's the last I'll say on it.


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## JosephB (May 29, 2013)

Imagine that. Evil people in a prison. Who'd a thunk it?

The belief that people are evil is just as naive as believing that people are all good. Both are result of an inbabilty or unwillingness to think outside individual experience -- for whatever reason.


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## Lewdog (May 29, 2013)

JosephB said:


> Imagine that. Evil people in a prison. Who'd a thunk it?
> 
> The belief that people are evil is just as naive as believing that people are all good. Both are result of an inbabilty or unwillingness to think outside individual experience -- for whatever reason.



Everyone that is evil in prison, was once evil in society.


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## JosephB (May 29, 2013)

Yeah -- I'm guessing that's one of the reasons they wound up in prison. 

Still doesn't say much about the notion that people are inherently evil though -- since most of us manage to stay out of prison.


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## Kevin (May 29, 2013)

Come on now, just say "I give" or you get the thumbscrews.


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## TheWritingWriter (May 29, 2013)

If you constantly think about trying to get sleep, you'll only increase the pressure & stress you are under. You need to relax and think about anything BUT sleep.


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## JosephB (May 29, 2013)

When I can't sleep, I go through one of these threads. I feel drowsy in no time.


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## Rustgold (May 29, 2013)

Lewdog said:
			
		

> People are fundamentally flawed





Sam said:


> You didn't say _some _people or _most _people, you said _people. _That's a mighty brush you're using to tar every person on the planet.


Of course everybody is flawed in numerous ways.  This isn't some religious mumbo-trash, it's fact.  The only question is how far do we accept imperfections in our lives?


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## Angelicpersona (May 29, 2013)

Okay, I'm not trying to demean you or put you down, but going back through this thread and seeing the posts that you have made pertaining to your mental illness... well, it seems like you're clutching it around you like a blanket. What your posts are reading to me as is "This is where I'm comfortable. I don't like it, but I'm comfortable here. I'm going to complain about how much I don't like it, and then lash out at anyone who tries to help me, because I'd rather not deal with something unknown." There's a mental illness and then there's a mentality. I think what your issue is is your mentality about your mental illness. Just my two cents, and that's the last you'll hear from me on this matter *zips lips*


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## Lewdog (May 29, 2013)

Whenever I think maybe the world is becoming a better place than when I first came into it, I need only read a message forum to bring me back to reality.  :lol:


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## Lewdog (May 29, 2013)

Angelicpersona said:


> Okay, I'm not trying to demean you or put you down, but going back through this thread and seeing the posts that you have made pertaining to your mental illness... well, it seems like you're clutching it around you like a blanket. What your posts are reading to me as is "This is where I'm comfortable. I don't like it, but I'm comfortable here. I'm going to complain about how much I don't like it, and then lash out at anyone who tries to help me, because I'd rather not deal with something unknown." There's a mental illness and then there's a mentality. I think what your issue is is your mentality about your mental illness. Just my two cents, and that's the last you'll hear from me on this matter *zips lips*



No...because you can't 'help' me, unless you can give me free stem cell therapy.



> Depression is a medical illness that causes a persistent feeling of sadness and loss of interest. Depression can cause physical symptoms, too.
> Also called major depression, major depressive disorder and clinical depression, it affects how you feel, think and behave. Depression can lead to a variety of emotional and physical problems. You may have trouble doing normal day-to-day activities, and depression may make you feel as if life isn't worth living.
> More than just a bout of the blues, depression isn't a weakness, *nor is it something that you can simply "snap out" of*. Depression is a chronic illness that usually requires long-term treatment, like diabetes or high blood pressure. But don't get discouraged. Most people with depression feel better with medication, psychological counseling or other treatment.



Depression (major depression) - MayoClinic.com

I'm not clinching to anything, but rather defending the fact that everyone is attacking me for not "snapping out" of something that I can't "just snap out of."  I'm not belittling your positive comments, but being straight forward with you.  I guess I could have just smiled and said everything was all better, but then I would have been telling you a lie.  Do you want me to lie to you?


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## dale (May 29, 2013)

Angelicpersona said:


> Okay, I'm not trying to demean you or put you down, but going back through this thread and seeing the posts that you have made pertaining to your mental illness... well, it seems like you're clutching it around you like a blanket. What your posts are reading to me as is "This is where I'm comfortable. I don't like it, but I'm comfortable here. I'm going to complain about how much I don't like it, and then lash out at anyone who tries to help me, because I'd rather not deal with something unknown." There's a mental illness and then there's a mentality. I think what your issue is is your mentality about your mental illness. Just my two cents, and that's the last you'll hear from me on this matter *zips lips*


this was my basic attitude in another discussion on mental illness on this forum. that basically, much of it is self-perpetuated or self-inflicted.i guess i worded it wrong at the time, because a lot of people became offended at this attitude at the time. but i see you and a few othersbasically saying what i was trying to imply at the time. i guess you all just word it with better sensitivity.


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## Lewdog (May 29, 2013)

You guys have convinced me!  I've finally realized I like being miserable, and that I have side tracked my way out of a full ride to college, and other good opportunities in my life because of how it helps me to continue to be miserable.  I now also know that wanting to be miserable has also helped me to sabotage most of my personal relationships and thus why I am 37 and single with no children.  Everything is my fault despite taking medication and seeking treatment, and that when I can't get out of bed it's because I am lazy and for no other reason.  I'm glad to have finally learned this after several years in and out of mental health facilities and talking to several healthcare professionals.  If I had only known it was all just a decision I could have made years ago, I wouldn't have been attempting suicide, and buying My Little Ponies instead.  Thank you!


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## Ariel (May 29, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> We are no longer talking about me, but about society, and it has nothing to do with 'my problems.'  A lot of things in this thread amaze me because people just don't get the idea that some things can't just be 'helped.'  I've said it repeatedly but people continue to fail to listen.  I didn't write this thread for help.  I wrote it to tell how my week has been.  There isn't a soul in this thread that is going to be able to change my genetic makeup, just the same as you aren't going to be able to change the genetic makeup of someone that has any other type of disease.  I take counseling, I take medicine, I do all those things.  Do you think I WANT to feel miserable?  Do you think I WANT to have had some many times of my life sabotaged by mental illness?
> 
> Repeatedly people have attacked me as not wanting help in this thread and yet they don't even understand the problem.  I've tried to educated people that there is a difference in what they perceive as depression, and what depression really is.  My problem isn't grief, as has been described here by many others.  Grief has nothing to do with a medical imbalance in the body.  Everyone at some point in their life will undergo grief.  Whether it is the loss of a loved one, divorce, loss of a job, loss of a pet, loss of an object, loss of anything like that will cause some degree of grief, but everyone goes through a cycle that will help them eventually move on with their life.  Not everyone will deal with the disease of depression, just like not everyone will deal with cancer, heart disease, or a stroke.
> 
> ...



I'm not attacking you.  I never offered you gumballs and rainbows.  I offered an ear to listen.  However, all you want to tell me is that I don't understand and that I'm not trying to understand.  I offered my opinion on the nature of people and instead I'm completely rebuffed with a religious argument.  I'm not arguing religion or anything at all.  I'm trying to understand and be here for you.  Instead I'm being rebuffed and ignored.

I can take a hint.  Good luck, Lew.  I hope you get whatever it is you _are _​looking for.


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## Tiamat (May 29, 2013)

*This thread is being placed under a 24-hour lock to keep it from getting out of hand.  If, upon being reopened, tempers remain heated, it's going to be locked permanently.  *


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## Sam (May 30, 2013)

Let's try this again. Maybe some of us can behave like adults this time.


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## philistine (May 30, 2013)

I enjoy a good lock-in.


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## patskywriter (May 31, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> …  I just don't know, I'm  lonely stuck in a place I don't want to be, depending on other people,  and waiting for something that is out of my control that will change my  life.  I've never felt so helpless.  All I ever want is to be able to  control my own life and destiny.



Although you (Lewdog) might disagree, your first post did read like a plea for help, at least to some. Perhaps it's because some people aren't inherently evil and aren't selfish, etc etc (whatever you said), they offered help the best way they knew how. I think that the offers (or criticism, as you might have taken it) were made in good faith.

This reminds me of my cousin Julia, who's 87 years old. She suffers aches and pains and they're often crippling. Cousin Julia insists that these are signs of old age, and I can't disagree. At first, I offered my help in taking her to the doctor or hospital and she refused every time, thus appearing to want to wear her pain as some sort of strange badge of courage. Even when I pointed out that a friend of ours, also age 87, who was in excruciating pain finally found relief at the Duke Pain Clinic, she refused to check it out. Some people are only able to go so far and convince themselves that "Things are the way they are, and that's it. I can't do anything about it." So now when Cousin Julia complains, I ask if I can help, but I no longer make suggestions. I am willing to allow her to suffer in pain if that's what she's resigned to do. She knows that I'm there for her if she ever changes her mind about taking action to improve her situation.

Your statement that people are inherently evil and that you've seen more  bad than good reminds me a revelation I made last year. I'm an avid  gardener. One day it dawned on me that I was spending more time peering  at my daylily beds in search of weeds to vanquish than I was looking at  the flowers blooming all around. I made a quick turnabout after that and  now take in all the beauty for what it is (although I'll still pounce  on weeds when I spot them).

Now that we have gone down the road a bit with you, Lewdog, I hope we have learned to nod and say, "Gee, that's tough" instead of trying to intervene (or at least offer solutions). If you are indeed convinced that you're doomed with the level of depression you're experiencing, then I'm fine with that. Sometimes things really are the way they are, and that's that. I sincerely wish you good luck.


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## Lewdog (May 31, 2013)

...once again, I was not rebuffing anyone's positive thoughts, just the fact that positive thoughts is not a cure all.  Here is a list of the items that are considered as part of treatment for depression.  Now once again pay attention to the fact I said 'Depression' and not 'Grief,' which are two totally different things.

Grief as defined by the Mayo Clinic, "Grief is a strong, sometimes overwhelming emotion for people, regardless of whether their sadness stems from the loss of a loved one or from a terminal diagnosis they or someone they love have received.They might find themselves feeling numb and removed from daily life, unable to carry on with regular duties while saddled with their sense of loss.
Grief is the natural reaction to loss. Grief is both a universal and a personal experience. Individual experiences of grief vary and are influenced by the nature of the loss. Some examples of loss include the death of a loved one, the ending of an important relationship, job loss, loss through theft or the loss of independence through disability."

You can find more of the definition at What is Grief?

Clinical Depression as defined by Wordiq.com, "It is hard for people who have not experienced clinical depression, either personally or by regular exposure to people suffering it, to understand its emotional impact and severity, interpreting it instead as being similar to "having the blues" or "feeling down". As the list of symptoms above indicates, clinical depression is a syndrome of interlocking symptoms which goes far beyond sad or painful feelings. A variety of biological indicators, including measurement of neurotransmitter levels, have shown that there are significant changes in brain chemistry and an overall reduction in brain activity. One consequence of a lack of understanding of its nature is that depressed individuals are often criticized by themselves and others for not making an effort to help themselves. However, the very nature of depression alters the way people think and react to situations to the point where they may become so pessimistic that they can do little or nothing about their condition. Because of this profound and often overwhelmingly negative outlook, it is imperative that the depressed individual seek professional help. Untreated depression is typically characterized by progressively worsening episodes separated by plateaus of temporary stability or remission. If left untreated it will generally resolve within six months to two years although occasionally depression becomes chronic and lasts for many years or indefinitely. In many cases (but not all) treatment can shorten the period of distress to a matter of weeks. While depressed, the person may damage themselves socially (e.g. the break up of relationships), occupationally (e.g. loss of a job), financially and physically. Treatment of depression can significantly reduce the incidence of this damage, including reducing the risk of suicide which is otherwise a common and tragic outcome. For all of these reasons, treatment of clinical depression is seen by many as very useful and at times life saving.
Some people can experience anhedonia for long periods of time before they discover it is a mental illness. The inability to feel pleasure can advance negativity already present in a depressed person's mental state."

To see even more about the description and some of the variables that need to be present in order to diagnose depression visit Clinical depression - Definition | WordIQ.com

Now when it comes to treatment for clinical depression it is basically broken up into three groups, what the person can do for their self, what others can do to help, and physical/medical treatment.  The first thing a person can do for their self, is seek treatment.  This is the most important step of all.  Then the individual will be asked to do certain things in order to get their feelings out.  This could be keeping a journal, talking to friends and family, or calling their therapist.  This is very important because bottled up emotions can do nothing but cause further harm and sometimes cause regression in treatment.  People with depression can also help show their feelings through poetry, painting, and other types of art.

The second part of treatment involves the patient surrounding their self with a positive support group.  This could be family, friends, or people who suffer from depression and those who have fought it for years.  Another part of the treatment comes from counseling sessions with a therapist, psychologist, and/or psychiatrist (the difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist is a psychiatrist has a medical degree and can prescribe medication).  Treatment can also involve group therapy sessions as part of supervised outpatient services.  These treatments aren't about just getting feelings out, but learning different techniques to retrain the brain.  The work to help patients think more positively.  They also teach patients to learn to deal with their past, understanding that they can't change it, and not to let it control them.  "Control what you can control," is a very often used expression.  These sessions also, maybe most importantly, help those afflicted with depression to learn ways to deal with poor situations in life differently than they did before, thus minimizing the effect it can have on their psyche.

The last part of treatment involves physical and/or medicine therapy.  It can range from things like daily scheduled walks, yoga, or anti-depressants.  One of the most simply techniques taught involves setting a daily routine.  No matter what someone has to do for the day, they should try to get out of bed at the same time, take a shower, eat breakfast, etc. so that they don't just lay around in bed all day left to their thoughts.  Patients should also take up some kind of exercise plan even if it is just walking.  Exercise is the natural form of anti-depressant.  Exercising cause the brain to release endorphin which is one of the chemicals that makes a person feel good.  Another way endorphin is released by the brain is through sex or masturbation. What you eat can only also help with depression.  Fatty foods tend to make a person lethargic.  Fresh fruits and vegetables, along with foods like chocolate can help naturally boost a person's mood.  The last part comes from one of several types of anti-depressants.  The type and dose of anti-depressant depends on the severity of the depression.  Some people have to take not only an anti-depressant but some kind of 'booster' that helps it work more effectively.  This is often the case for those that have long term treatment resistant depression.  It can take several years sometimes to find the right medicine for the right person.


I hope some of the information I shared can make it easier for some to understand that depression isn't a quick easy fix., and many times, even after several years of treatment and therapy, depression doesn't just 'go away.'  It's something that some individuals will deal with on and off their entire life.


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## JosephB (May 31, 2013)

While grief has no physical cause like clinical depression, and I think it’s erroneous to equate the two, there are enough similarities in treatment and how people learn to cope with each -- what people can do for themselves, what others can do to help, to paraphrase you -- that a discussion including the two isn’t something all that outrageous. Even the physical manifestations, lethargy, sleeplessness etc. are similar.

Yet you’re saying because grief is somehow “temporary” -- there is no value in sharing experiences – and that people who have suffered loss have nothing valid to offer. Sorry, but that just doesn’t add up.


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## Lewdog (May 31, 2013)

JosephB said:


> While grief has no physical cause like clinical depression, and I think it’s erroneous to equate the two, there are enough similarities in treatment and how people learn to cope with each -- what people can do for themselves, what others can do to help, to paraphrase you -- that a discussion including the two isn’t something all that outrageous. Even the physical manifestations, lethargy, sleeplessness etc. are similar.
> 
> Yet you’re saying because grief is somehow “temporary” -- there is no value in sharing experiences – and that people who have suffered loss have nothing valid to offer. Sorry, but that just doesn’t add up.



No, the two are not similar because Grief is brought on by a life experience whereas people with depression can have bouts come on at any time.  Grief can be treated through different stages, called the [FONT=arial, helvetica, bitstream vera sans, clean, sans-serif]The Kübler-Ross [/FONT]*Grief*[FONT=arial, helvetica, bitstream vera sans, clean, sans-serif] [/FONT]*Cycle*.  

I really don't understand how in one sentence you say it is erroneous to equate the two, and then you bargain a way as to why they should be discussed together.  That argument makes little to zero sense.  I have nothing against people sharing their experiences, as long as they don't come to a thread I created to share my week, try to belittle my condition, and then engage in a game of one-upmanship with past personal experiences.  Those people should feel free to start their own threads that highlight their own experiences.


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## JosephB (May 31, 2013)

Equating means you're saying they're the same. Equal. Obviously, that's not the case. And no one here has tried to belittle your condition -- that's just your perception.

Otherwise, I think you’re just determined to focus on the differences instead of considering what other people have dealt with and looking for common ground -- for whatever reason. I don’t think anyone here  is going to change your outlook -- so whatever.

BTW -- the "Grief Cycle" has been largely dismissed by grief counseling professionals. Anyone who has dealt with it pretty much knows it's a joke. You can be hit with all those emotions at any given time -- there's no cycle. The only thing you can work toward is acceptance -- and that can come and go. And some people never really get to that point.


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## Lewdog (May 31, 2013)

JosephB said:


> Equating means you're saying they're the same. Equal. Obviously, that's not the case.
> 
> Otherwise, I think you’re just determined to focus on the differences instead of considering what other people have dealt with and looking for common ground -- for whatever reason. I don’t think anyone here  is going to change your outlook -- so whatever.



No, because as long as people think that grief is the same thing as depression, which they aren't, how can they?  It's like saying beef and chicken are the same thing because they are both considered meat.  They aren't even remotely close to the same thing.

Everyone, and I mean everyone...at some point in their life will experience grief.  Less than 16% of the population of the world will experience depression, and even less of that will experience the two-types of the three types of depression I suffer from.  So when someone tells me that I can snap out of my problem through positive thoughts, because they did after experiencing the death of a loved one, and I tell them it's not the same and they get mad at me and say I'm just not trying...well the difference between the two couldn't be more evident.


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## JosephB (May 31, 2013)

No one has said anything about you snapping out of your depression. No one. But the fact is, cognitive therapy -- not "positive thoughts" -- is used to treat both depression and grief. The same exact methods. I wonder why.

And while everyone looses someone at some point -- who, how and when it happens can profoundly affect how an individual will cope with it. When it comes to understanding what people deal with -- maybe you should try practicing what you preach.

Obviously, the physiological aspect of depression makes it _very _different -- and more difficult and complex to deal with -- and it's ongoing regardless. No one is claiming otherwise. That doesn't mean there are zero similarities -- both in how they can make you feel and how they are treated.



patskywriter said:


> Now that we have gone down the road a bit with you, Lewdog, I hope we  have learned to nod and say, "Gee, that's tough" instead of trying to  intervene (or at least offer solutions). If you are indeed convinced  that you're doomed with the level of depression you're experiencing,  then I'm fine with that. Sometimes things really are the way they are,  and that's that. I sincerely wish you good luck.



Good advice. And on that note, I'll say "Gee, that's tough."

Later.


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## Lewdog (May 31, 2013)

JosephB said:


> No one has said anything you snapping out of your depression. No one. But the fact is, cognitive therapy -- not "positive thoughts" -- is used to treat both depression and grief. The same exact methods. I wonder why.
> 
> And while everyone loses someone at some point -- who, how and when it happens can profoundly affect how an individual will cope with it. When it comes to understanding what people deal with -- maybe you should try practicing what you preach.



I'm done being attacked here.  I'm not diminishing what anyone else has gone through, but have said ad nauseum, that I am not here to discuss grief, because it is NOT the same thing as depression.  Several of people in this thread have said that my life would change and I would be able to quit suffering from depression if I would just think more positively.  As I have said, that is only part of the answer, and as I quoted, that can be very difficult to do at times because it is part of the nature of depression.  

The assessment that grief is the same as depression because they both use therapy, is why mental illnesses are so misunderstood.  They do not use the 'exact same methods.'  If they did why would they be classified differently, other than there is no thing as one brush stroke for it all.  I love when one person feels the need to talk for everyone.  

Another flaw in your argument is your repeated ability to try and play both sides of the fence and continually contradict yourself.  "While grief has no physical cause like clinical depression, and I think it’s erroneous to equate the two..."  Do you not understand what you just did there?  So if something is 50% 'like' something else now they are exactly the same?



> BTW -- the "Grief Cycle" has been largely dismissed by grief counseling professionals. Anyone who has dealt with it pretty much knows it's a joke. You can be hit with all those emotions at any given time -- there's no cycle. The only thing you can work toward is acceptance -- and that can come and go. And some people never really get to that point.



Care to show me your PH D. in psychology?  Care to show me your experience with the field of Psychology?  I've shared mine.  Unless you can back up your opinions, especially those in which you talk for 'everyone,' than it is just that, an opinion, and not only an opinion  but a rather uneducated one unless you can prove you have some kind of long term experience with the mental health community and some extensive secondary education in psychology.


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## shadowwalker (May 31, 2013)

Well, I'm really hesitant to post here. I've tried reading through this whole thread and there does seem to be a lot of miscommunication and misunderstandings. So I'll just say, having lived with clinical depression for well over 20 years, and having experienced grief and loss, I think I can safely say that while they are not the same thing, there are similarities in the emotions and reactions experienced. Someone who has experienced grief but not _clinical _depression can certainly empathize with someone who has clinical depression. Grief, at its rawest, is temporary - but it's not something that goes away. After 20 years, I can still find myself in tears when I think of my father. Clinical depression, and its related dysphoria, can be ongoing, every day, every hour experiences - or they can cycle. Grief doesn't have to affect your daily life, whereas clinical depression has the control - whatever methods of treatment one tries, there is no guarantee any will work, and none of them will cure it.

Lewdog, allow people to empathize, give them the benefit of the doubt - and if any post really does appear patronizing or antagonistic, either ignore it or report it. A lot of people don't understand - but a lot more really do.


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## squidtender (May 31, 2013)

*Keep this thread friendly or I'm locking it for good. This is the last chance*


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## JosephB (May 31, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> Care to show me your PH D. in psychology?  Care to show me your experience with the field of Psychology?  I've shared mine.  Unless you can back up your opinions, especially those in which you talk for 'everyone,' than it is just that, an opinion, and not only an opinion  but a rather uneducated one unless you can prove you have some kind of long term experience with the mental health community and some extensive secondary education in psychology.



This is good place to start:

No Stages of Grief | Psychology Today

Note especially:
_
"In fact, Kübler-Ross' stage theory was not the product of scientific research."_

Also, the stages in were originally about what people who are terminally ill go through. It just mutated from there to include grief in general. Otherwise, there's nothing to it. When someone in my grief group mentioned it -- the the therapist just smiled and said, pay no attention to that. It just confuses people.

Of course, feel free to provide some sort of evidence that will tell me there's any validity to it.

PS -- I said there is one aspect of treatment that is the same -- cognitive therapy -- specifically recognizing and dealing with negative thinking patterns.  That I said they can be treated with this one approach doesn't mean I think that depression and grief are the same.


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## Blade (May 31, 2013)

JosephB said:


> While grief has no physical cause like clinical depression, and I think it’s erroneous to equate the two, there are enough similarities in treatment and how people learn to cope with each -- what people can do for themselves, what others can do to help, to paraphrase you -- that a discussion including the two isn’t something all that outrageous. Even the physical manifestations, lethargy, sleeplessness etc. are similar.


I would not be willing to attempt an exact definition of the difference between grief and depression though in my own experience grief does seem to have a certain amount of residual effect which may be a significant contributing factor in depression. What I mean is that even if you manage to "get over it", "get on with your life", "find something new" or whatever there always seems to a little remnant of the experience that never quite gets through the cleansing procedure. I am not trying to make this into a big deal but there are events and situations in my own life, most from many years ago, that occasionally come to mind and give me pause to reconsider. I hope this is the voice of experience and a realization on my part of the similarities between past and present but I can see that if a person really dwelt on such stuff it could lead to an immobilization of sorts. 

Depression seems to me to involve a stoic component that is somehow "stuck in gear" and continues to perform even when the stimulus that provoked it has vanished. To toughen up one's attitude in a time of crisis is quite reasonable and productive but to continue with it indefinitely is certainly not.


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## Lewdog (May 31, 2013)

JosephB said:


> This is good place to start:
> 
> No Stages of Grief | Psychology Today
> 
> ...



One article in a magazine?  I can show you articles in magazines that will 'prove' Leonardo D'Vinci knew aliens existed.  Heck there is a show on The History Channel right now about 'Ancient Aliens.'

There is a big difference between saying you won't understand something, and saying it is wrong.  Someone might not understand Quantum Physics, but that doesn't mean it isn't a real science.  14 years of in and out patient therapy, and more than four years of college towards a degree in Psychology, tells me that the Grief Cycle is a real device used in treatment, and is effective.  One magazine article isn't going to change that.  If you need any validity about the Grief Cycle, read any text book printed in the last oh...40 years?  One important thing to understand is, with mental health, and Psychology as a science, is that nothing is a solid law like it is with physical sciences.  This is why mental health has lagged behind other types of health care for so many years.  Less than 100 years ago, people still believed that some types of mental illness was witchcraft or possessions, and in some parts of the world today, they still are.


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## Pluralized (May 31, 2013)

> There is a big difference between saying you won't understand something, and saying it is wrong.



There's a whole lot of wisdom in that statement Lew - and it goes both ways.


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## JosephB (May 31, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> One article in a magazine?  I can show you articles in magazines that will 'prove' Leonardo D'Vinci knew aliens existed.  Heck there is a show on The History Channel right now about 'Ancient Aliens.'
> 
> There is a big difference between saying you won't understand something, and saying it is wrong.  Someone might not understand Quantum Physics, but that doesn't mean it isn't a real science.  14 years of in and out patient therapy, and more than four years of college towards a degree in Psychology, tells me that the Grief Cycle is a real device used in treatment, and is effective.  One magazine article isn't going to change that.  If you need any validity about the Grief Cycle, read any text book printed in the last oh...40 years?  One important thing to understand is, with mental health, and Psychology as a science, is that nothing is a solid law like it is with physical sciences.  This is why mental health has lagged behind other types of health care for so many years.  Less than 100 years ago, people still believed that some types of mental illness was witchcraft or possessions, and in some parts of the world today, they still are.



I said it was a good place to start. That one article sums up why grief counseling professionals don’t give it any credence. It makes a lot of sense once you read it.

Again, feel free to show me evidence or any kind of study that will show me that any grief counseling professional pays any attention to it. Feel free to start with one article.


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## Lewdog (May 31, 2013)

JosephB said:


> That one article sums up why grief counseling professionals don’t give it any credence.
> 
> Again, feel free to show me evidence or any kind of study that will show me that any grief counseling professional pays any attention to it. Feel free to start with one article.



Once again, you use this idea of 'everyone,' 'anyone,' 'grief counseling professionals,' where you use these all or nothing collective nouns to prove your point.  I don't have to provide any scientific proof in order to prove you wrong, you've done that yourself.  If you said, 'show me some scientific proof why all grief counseling professionals use the Kubler Ross Grief Cycle,"  I couldn't.  I've already admitted that there is no such thing as a 'law' when it comes to Psychology.  What you can't do, is back up your claim that the Kubler Ross Grief Cycle is discredited by all Grief counseling professionals.  

Now I will submit an article written by two of the most well respected Grief Counseling Professionals in the United States, Russell Friedman and John W. James.  Here is a link to a short bio about the two who are the co-founders of the Grief Recovery Institute.  About Us - The Grief Recovery Method

They wrote a long essay refuting the details of the Yale University study and a lot of the details provided in your article.  Here is an excerpt of the essay, the rest you have to pay to see.

"The Myth of the Stages of Dying, Death and Grief" by Friedman, Russell; James, John W. - Skeptic (Altadena, CA), Vol. 14, Issue 2, Summer 2008 | Questia, Your Online Research Library


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## JosephB (May 31, 2013)

Did you even read the article? 

"The fact that Kubler-Ross' theory of stages was specific to dying  became obscured."

"In fact, Kubler-Ross' stage theory was not the  product of scientific research."

"Somehow, over the years, the real virtues inspired by her work have been  subordinated to the inaccurately named, largely imaginary stages."


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## squidtender (May 31, 2013)

*​Thread closed*


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