# Published books / Being a reader vs Being a writer



## Sunny

I've recently read on some agents blogs, how they are freaking out because of the changes coming to the publishing world. My understanding is that with a lot of books going electronic now, that their jobs aren't as secure. I'm confused a little with all of this, I guess.

As a writer, this is good news right? Won't it be easier to get your work published electronically? When it's done that way, do you even need traditional publishers anymore?

As a reader, I'm scared this will clog up the system with writing that shouldn't be published. If I go to amazon, lets say, and download a new book. How do you know if the writer you are downloading is any good? Will the market not get clogged with bad writing, grammatical errors, spelling mistakes... and well... just stupid ideas? How does that work? How do you avoid that?

I don't like reading books on a screen. I may have change that by the looks of things. 

Have I got the wrong idea about this?


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## Pilgrim

Good news for a writer, not for an agent.
You hit the nail on the head with your *"As a reader, I'm scared this will clog up the system with writing that shouldn't be published..."
*There is a great danger that the market will flood with rubbish and we will see in the writing world what happened in the Music world.
Plastic, manufactured crap from people with no talent flooding the market so people with real talent don't get a look in any more.
A slightly wayward example as the reason that music sells at the expense of talent is because that is where the money is, but you get my drift.
I would always read the reviews before buying a book via digital download but that means there would have to be a few guinea pigs possibly wasting their money for the rest of us to find out.


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## Sunny

Pilgrim said:


> You hit the nail on the head with your *"As a reader, I'm scared this will clog up the system with writing that shouldn't be published..." *There is a great danger that the market will flood with rubbish and we will see in the writing world what happened in the Music world.
> Plastic, manufactured crap from people with no talent flooding the market so people with real talent don't get a look in any more.



This scares me!

At least today, if I get published by say, _Harper_, I'd know that I'd be more likely to have a lucrative career. They do so much marketing for you. Writing tours and book signings. 

I guess telling people that you are a published writer wouldn't be such a great feeling anymore. Heck everyone will be a published writer! lol


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## Pilgrim

To an extent, yes, everyone could be a published writer. BUT, you still have to complete a book to be published so there is at least some knowledge of the art of writing needed.
Don't forget the reviews. People know good from bad. The reviews will not lie, junk will be seen as just that, good writing will be rewarded via positive reviews.
The only sad thing is that the guaranteed influx of rubbish will be available alongside the good, people will have some "rooting out" to do.
Let's not forget though that paper publication through agent and editor is no guarantee of "making it."
People have different tastes and even on these forums you will find plenty of people slating some published works. In some cases I agree with them, you wonder how some managed to get published.
The junk is in paper published works also, not just digital.


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## Sunny

Pilgrim said:


> Let's not forget though that paper publication through agent and editor is no guarantee of "making it."
> The junk is in paper published works also, not just digital.



Yes. This is true. I have read some books that I did not like at all, but at least they've had an editor go through them and remove the errors. 

"Making it" is up to the writer as well, I think. There is a lot of self promotion that writers have to do.

I guess all we can do is go with the changes and see how we all fare.


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## Scarlett_156

The market, and everywhere else, is already flooded with terrible, terrible writing.  The down side is the age-old one of having to pick through bad writing to discover any good; the up side is, of course, that no trees have to die to bring this terrible, terrible writing to us.  In fact, the opposite might even be claimed, as when we turn our comp or reader off in disgust at having to view the terrible writing we are saving energy. 

An agent's job is never secure, regardless of whatever it is that the agent is acting as, er, AGENT for.  Getting attention and money for writing always involves striving against competition, regardless of the means via which said writing is delivered to the public.  

I worked in a large public library for a number of years.  There are SO MANY books in a typical large city library that are never read by anyone and were only read by a few even right after they were first written, and most of those books were slaved over by authors and picked over by editors, and agonized over by publishers, until they were "perfect", right? 

As a long-time fan of reading, I've found that "the system" has ALWAYS been clogged up with "writing that shouldn't be published" (I like the way you put that).


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## Sunny

Scarlett_156 said:


> The market, and everywhere else, is already flooded with terrible, terrible writing.



I guess it's been easier for me to avoid the terrible, terrible writing because I've always trusted the publishing houses not to turn out complete garbage. I also like to read reviews on books before I buy them. It's also nice to be able to go into a book store and flip through the pages, and decide if it's something I want to spend my money on. 

I've never read an e-book. Do you get to read a sample chapter or anything before purchasing it? That could help, I suppose.


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## Giantlobsterrobot

I've also never read an E-Book.  If something's good, we'll hear about it regardless of whether it's a traditionally published book or an electronic one.  Reviews carry a lot of weight for me.  (I'm sure for others too.)  As long as the reviews clearly explain the reason for the like/dislike of a book, it can be a great resource.  The clutter can be ignored with enough research.  If enough people are getting into something, it's worth a glance, but not always a read. ^_^


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## Zootalaws

Sunny said:


> I've recently read on some agents blogs, how they are freaking out because of the changes coming to the publishing world...As a writer, this is good news right? Won't it be easier to get your work published electronically? When it's done that way, do you even need traditional publishers anymore?
> 
> As a reader, I'm scared this will clog up the system with writing that shouldn't be published. If I go to amazon, lets say, and download a new book. How do you know if the writer you are downloading is any good? Will the market not get clogged with bad writing, grammatical errors, spelling mistakes... and well... just stupid ideas? How does that work? How do you avoid that?



Amazon has recently changed their Kindle self-publish royalties to 70% with some proviso's - the book has to be priced between $0.99 and $9.99 (I think), it has to be 'ready' - they don't edit, it has to be formatted correctly (although they will do it for a fee) and for some the most important one: 

"You grant to each Amazon party, throughout the term of this Agreement, *a nonexclusive, irrevocable*, right and license to distribute Digital Books, directly and through third-party distributors, *in all digital formats by all digital distribution means available*."

Amazon also reserves the right to change your retail price.

For some people, this might be a great deal, versus vanity publishing.

As well as Kindle, Amazon also has CreateSpace for publishing hard copy. There are rules to that as well - you have to buy a couple of books, for example, and they don't actually print anything till they get an order - unless you order a bunch of them. Again, better than vanity publishing and with some decent price/payback options to make it worthwhile.

Barnes and Noble has similar options, but not as attractive, royalties-wise as Amazon.



> I don't like reading books on a screen. I may have change that by the looks of things.



I though so too, till I got a Kindle. Now the thought of paper books is abhorrent  Apart from art/illustrated/coking books, that is. The  e-ink surface is not at all like reading a 'transmissive' screen and now they have them at $79 for the base model, it is really affordable. Despite all the gumpf about being tied into Amazon, I have far more non-Amazon books on my Kindle than the 200-odd I have purchased from them.



> Have I got the wrong idea about this?



Possibly 



Pilgrim said:


> There is a great danger that the market will flood with rubbish and we will see in the writing world what happened in the Music world...
> I would always read the reviews before buying a book via digital download but that means there would have to be a few guinea pigs possibly wasting their money for the rest of us to find out.



The nice thing about most of the e-Book vendors is that you can try-before-you-buy. At least as much as you would if you were browsing at a bookstore.



Pilgrim said:


> Don't forget the reviews. People know good from bad. The reviews will not lie, junk will be seen as just that, good writing will be rewarded via positive reviews...The junk is in paper published works also, not just digital.



Whicn is where you as an author can help yourself by offering some review copies to some of the review sites and to people that can review them on amazon and B&N for you. 



Sunny said:


> Yes. This is true. I have read some books that I did not like at all, but at least they've had an editor go through them and remove the errors.



Which you should still do if you intend on selling your work. The difference being, 1c-5c a word vs 70% commission in a market of millions of readers with instant access.



> "Making it" is up to the writer as well, I think. There is a lot of self promotion that writers have to do.



I agree, just sitting back and expecting the dosh to roll in and you will probably be disappointed.



Sunny said:


> ...I also like to read reviews on books before I buy them. It's also nice to be able to go into a book store and flip through the pages, and decide if it's something I want to spend my money on.



There's no reason you can't continue to do this.



> I've never read an e-book. Do you get to read a sample chapter or anything before purchasing it? That could help, I suppose.



Yes you do - I am always trawling for new stuff and use Amazon's sample option all the time.

Try it - go and download the Kindle for PC (or Mac!) app, assuming you have an Amazon account, then download some samples.

The app is actually pretty good, but nowhere near as good as the convenience or functionality of the Kindle itself.

As you can tell, I am a bit of an advocate. I get annoyed with people that say that Amazon is killing bookshops - sorry, they haven't helped themselves by pricing their products out of my reach. I have no great love for bookshops - I am just as happy trawling websites and can do it at times that suit me. That isn't to say I don't like bookshops, I do, but not enough to pay 40%-80% more than I have to. I have a limited amount I am allowed to spend on books ('er indoors!) so I like to make it go as far as possible.

I have a particular set of circumstances that makes a Kindle almost compulsory for me - there are two bookshops here and they have about half a bookshelf each of modern fiction - modern being 'within 10 years' - mostly of the romance and Wilbur Smith variety. Their prices are outrageous. Think US$25-40 for a paperback. Also we have 'active' censorship. Nothing that would be out-of-place in Victorian high society is allowed through. Same with magazines... after decades as a customer, I have had to let my Rolling Stone subscription lapse. It just doesn't get in.

Being a voracious reader, the Kindle was the natural choice. I buy myself a bunch of gift vouchers and apply them to my Amazon account - that way I can maintain a US account without a US credit card - and just work my way through it. I also buy non-Amazon  books and download from Project Gutenberg, etc.

I have quite a few thousand books now and use a great app called Calibre to manage the whole thing.

I understand it isn't for everyone, but everyone that has tried my Kindle(s - I have spares ) has been impressed and quite a few have bought their own. Part of that is our location - they are in the same boat as me - but it is also the convenience - I carry about 2-300 books at any one time, plus my own documentation, etc. If I am working on the Jeep, I can use my workshop manuals on it and its a lot easier to find stuff using the built-in search. Same in the kitchen, I have a rolling document with my recipes on it which I call up. Much more convenient than some of my massive cooking volumes.


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## WriterJohnB

Zootalaws said:


> Amazon has recently changed their Kindle self-publish royalties to 70% with some proviso's - the book has to be priced between $0.99 and $9.99 (I think), it has to be 'ready' - they don't edit, it has to be formatted correctly (although they will do it for a fee) and for some the most important one:
> 
> "You grant to each Amazon party, throughout the term of this Agreement, *a nonexclusive, irrevocable*, right and license to distribute Digital Books, directly and through third-party distributors, *in all digital formats by all digital distribution means available*."



Is that a problem? I have published several books to both Kindle and Createspace. The right is NONEXCLUSIVE, so I can publish to Smashwords or other e-publishers, also. And there's an "unpublish" button, so I can take any book off the shelf, either temp or permanent.

As well as Kindle, Amazon also has CreateSpace for publishing hard copy. There are rules to that as well - you have to buy a couple of books, for example, and they don't actually print anything till they get an order - unless you order a bunch of them. Again, better than vanity publishing and with some decent price/payback options to make it worthwhile.

That's what Print On Demand IS. And you don't have to buy ANY copies. Until recently, they required the author to buy a proof copy (so quality could be checked) but have now eliminated even that requirement. I'm very happy with both Createspace and Kindle, as an author.

Take care,

JohnB


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## chongjasmine

I think it is a good things that writings are going through the electronic path. It means that you can publish your novels without having to worry about whether a publisher will accept your novels. This gives you more room as a writer to be creative, and to experiment with writings that do not generally fit the 'mainstream' criteria.

As a reader, you can avoid reading rubbish by using readers' reviews as a gauge of whether a book is worthy to be downloaded and read or not. Users tend to offer reviews of books, and goodreads.com is a a good place to check up to see if a book is worthy of your attention.


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## shadowwalker

Giantlobsterrobot said:


> If something's good, we'll hear about it regardless of whether it's a traditionally published book or an electronic one.



"Traditionally" published books are also in electronic (ebook) _format_. And you'll more than likely hear about a commercially published book before a self-published simply because these will have more marketing power behind them.

To the OP - yes, there are a lot of bad books published commercially - however, most are bad on a subjective basis (I don't like that story) versus badly written. Note I say "most". The problem self-publishers have to face and deal with is that now, anyone can indeed publish their own book, and they don't all care about quality (or they think their book is perfect). So look at reviews (bearing in mind you may now have to research the reviewers as well to figure out who are 'legit' and who are just doing a favor), look at the sample pages, and see what else (if anything) the author has written. And yeah, a commercial publishing house will probably be an indicator that the book has at least been edited for readability. Of course, there's no guarantee with any book that you'll actually _like _it. :friendly_wink:


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## WriterJohnB

Almost all e-books have free samples to download. It ought to give you an idea if you want to continue reading.

JohnB


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## Gamer_2k4

chongjasmine said:


> I think it is a good things that writings are going through the electronic path. It means that you can publish your novels without having to worry about whether a publisher will accept your novels. This gives you more room as a writer to be creative, and to experiment with writings that do not generally fit the 'mainstream' criteria.



I would say that's a terrible thing.  High barriers to entry mean (ideally) only the best novels make it through.  If any scrub can get a book published, you're going to have to wade through the garbage to get to the legitimately good works.


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## shadowwalker

I think in terms of nonfiction, it's a boon, as there are many books which are of value but to a readership which makes it unprofitable to commercially publish. In terms of fiction - yeah, not so much. Because while there is also good fiction which is targeted to a smaller audience, too many writers think they are God's gift to readers - and it's a false assumption of massive scale.


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## movieman

Gamer_2k4 said:


> I would say that's a terrible thing.  High barriers to entry mean (ideally) only the best novels make it through.  If any scrub can get a book published, you're going to have to wade through the garbage to get to the legitimately good works.



That'll be why whenever I look at the Horror shelf at the local bookstore it's full of 'Sparkly Vampire' and 'Oscar Wilde, Vampire Hunter' novels. God forbid if anyone but a major publisher was allowed to sell books there.

And imagine if Youtube let anyone upload any old crap so you had to wade through a million dancing cat videos to find something that's worth watching.

Less sarcastically, I'd agree that most of the self-published books I've read are bad, but they're also somewhere down in the 500,000+ sales rank range where few people ever see them. The difference is that that I can find self-published horror novels which aren't part of 'latest big trend X' because the publishers aren't all looking for books that are 'just like Twilight only different'.


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## shadowwalker

I think the key word was "ideally". Certainly having professional editors going over one's work will produce much, much better results than having your best friend do it. But no, not all editors are good. Not all commercially published books are written well. However, liking or disliking "Sparkly Vampires" is subjective and has nothing to do with the quality of the writing. There are a lot of poorly written books (by both types of publishers) that are doing very well sales-wise; there are a lot of well-written books that gather dust on the store shelves. Readers don't always want Tolstoy. Sometimes they just want sparkly.


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