# Lay, Laid - Which one for this example?



## tabasco5 (Apr 12, 2013)

The story is told in the past tense with first-person POV.  I have researched this and can't find anything to say exactly.  Any advice is appreciated.

I ________ down in the belly of the canoe.

A. lay
B. laid
C. lie
D. lied


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## Nickleby (Apr 12, 2013)

For some reason this seems to be a very contentious issue among grammarians. I was taught that _lay_ refers to a reflexive action, that is, something I do to myself, as in _I lay down on the couch_. On the other hand, _laid_ refers to the opposite, as in _I laid down my paddle_. So my answer would be A: lay.

Present tense of _lay_ is _lie_. Present tense of _laid_ is _lay_ (confusing).


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## Deleted member 49710 (Apr 12, 2013)

lay.

The difference between "to lie" and "to lay" is that "lie" is intransitive, meaning that it does not take an object. So you should say "I lie down" in present tense, and "I lay down" in past tense, "lay" being the past tense form of "to lie".

"To lay" is transitive; it has to have an object. So (present tense) "I lay the newspaper on the table," "I lay me down," etc. "Laid" is the past tense form of "to lay."

Here's a good explanation of transitive vs. intransitive verbs.


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## Robdemanc (Apr 12, 2013)

Why not use (assuming continuous past)

I was lying down in the belly of the canoe.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Apr 12, 2013)

"I was lying down" implies a progressive action or continuous state. "I lay down" is a single discrete action. Both are grammatically correct, just depends on what the OP is trying to convey.


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## Rustgold (Apr 12, 2013)

Is this a full sentence, or is there supposed to be a second action occurring?  I find myself wanting to put in another action here.
Perhaps the issue isn't with the one word.


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## tabasco5 (Apr 12, 2013)

Yes, Rustgold, this is a single sentence.  The style of the story is short choppy sentences--I don't know why, that's just how my character told me to write it.  Maybe it was because I had been reading Hemingway that day...

After reading the posts and doing further research, it appears that lay is the most correct, however I am finding myself leaning more towards laid because it feels better.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Apr 12, 2013)

"lay" isn't the "most correct" answer, it's the _only_ correct answer. This isn't really one of those fuzzy situations where you get to choose.


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## Bloggsworth (Apr 13, 2013)

Context is all.

I was tired so I lay down in in the canoe in order to get some sleep...

I didn't want them to see me from the bank so I decided to lie down in the canoe...


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## Deleted member 49710 (Apr 13, 2013)

I feel incredibly pedantic, but--no. It's not context. It's grammar.

_I lay down in in the canoe_
here, "lay" is the verb "to lie" in past tense.
_
I decided to lie down_
here, "to lie"=infinitive, unconjugated form of verb, oh yes you guessed it, "to lie," with "decided" as modal verb. 

Both these forms are correct, because they are _the same GD verb._ 

I will go take my grammar-teacher sedative now.


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## Sam (Apr 13, 2013)

'Laid' only refers to a the setting down of an inaminate object: "I laid the kettle down." It never refers to the act of a person lying down onto something. That is always 'lay'. "I lay down to sleep." 

The confusion here is that they are two different words. The past tense of 'lie' is 'lay', but 'lay' is already a word on its own, the past tense of which is 'laid'. Once you've grasped that concept, the confusion becomes less so.


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## Robdemanc (Apr 13, 2013)

If the sentence is a single statement and has no relative action then keep it as "I lay down..."

If the sentence is in relation to a previous or secondary action then "I was lying down..."

Example:  I was lying down in the belly of the canoe.  Then a huge whale tipped me into the water.

Or: I could not have seen how far from shore I had drifted.  I was lying down in the belly of the canoe.  

It sounds right to me.

But if its a single unrelated action the "lay" is correct:

I pushed the rocks with my ore and set myself adrift.  By the time my pursuers reach the coast I will be far out to sea.  I lay down in the belly of the canoe.

Perhaps.


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## tabasco5 (Apr 13, 2013)

lasm said:


> "lay" isn't the "most correct" answer, it's the _only_ correct answer. This isn't really one of those fuzzy situations where you get to choose.



I appreciate your response and agree that lay is the correct answer, but I have to argue that the author gets to choose in any situation.

For some reason, lay just sounds terrible to me.  It is similar to lighted a cigarette.  That may be correct, but I would never use it.


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## Sam (Apr 13, 2013)

fenbields5 said:


> I have to argue that the author gets to choose in any situation.



No, they don't. You can't invent a grammar rule because you choose to. 

*I will lie down and go to sleep. *

You 'lie' down on a bed to sleep. The past tense of 'lie' is 'lay'. Not 'laid'. So your sentence has to be: 

*I lay down in the belly of the canoe. *

You have absolutely no choice in the matter. Anything else is grammatically incorrect and will be flagged by any editor worth their price.


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## tabasco5 (Apr 13, 2013)

Sam said:


> No, they don't. You can't invent a grammar rule because you choose to.



Wow, I never knew it was outside the realm of possibility for writers to write how they wanted to.  I'm sure glad I ran this by the Grammar Police--I wouldn't want to wind up in the Grammar Jail.  Once I realized I couldn't write how I wanted to I went and lay down on my bed and cried over my stupidity.  

I'm sure glad someone told Twain and Hemingway about having to follow strict grammar rules.  Oh, and James Joyce too.


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## Sam (Apr 13, 2013)

You can write whatever way you please. What you can't do is break the laws which govern writing, i.e. grammar and spelling. It's like writing, "I go to shop because I need buy food." Likewise, you can't use an improper and grammatically incorrect word because it 'sounds better'. 

The word is 'lay'. The reason why this is so is because it's the past tense of 'lie'. The powers-that-be who created the English language made it that way for a reason, so instead of arguing with people who know better, it might be an idea to listen to what they're telling you and take it on-board.


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## tabasco5 (Apr 13, 2013)

Sam said:


> You can write whatever way you please. What you can't do is break the laws which govern writing, i.e. grammar and spelling.
> 
> No, no, please don't misunderstand.  I don't want to break any laws for sure!  I just wasn't aware of the laws.  For some reason, I thought artistic license applied to writers.  Now I have learned the error of my ways.  I realize now why Cormac McCarthy is serving jail time.
> 
> ...


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## Jon M (Apr 13, 2013)

Kind of funny that Joyce, Hemingway, and McCarthy and all these other literary superheros are being called to action because of their rogue status and because using the wrong form of 'lay' is now (apparently) rogue-ish and covered by "Artistic License". 

Rules are rules, and this is an incredibly stupid rule to get all stuffy about. Fact is, because this issue is so trivial, writers and editors will naturally assume you do not know the rules, not that you are deliberately flouting the rules and writing with "Artistic License".

So my advice is, if you don't want to appear like a literary dummy, follow the rules of grammar.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Apr 13, 2013)

While it is certainly true that you can write whichever you want and no power in the world will throw you in prison (except Sam, who has a special dungeon, I believe), the problem with that is this is a fairly common error. If you show your work to somebody else, they'll spot it and think you just don't know the difference, like if you mixed up "their" and "there". If you're sending work to magazines and such, they might reject you. So you create a little unnecessary risk for yourself anytime you make a deliberate error like this.

edit: Or what that guy said.


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## Sam (Apr 13, 2013)

> No, no, please don't misunderstand.  I don't want to break any laws for sure!  I just wasn't aware of the laws.  For some reason, I thought artistic license applied to writers.  Now I have learned the error of my ways.  I realize now why Cormac McCarthy is serving jail time.





> Sounds like the American federal government created the English language, lol.  All kidding aside, I appreciate the comments.  But it is always good to listen to what someone is saying and not just hearing what you want to.  I am all about individualism and believe in the free-market society.  If someone wants to use a word I don't like, I'm not going to report them to the GP, I'm just not going to read their material if I so choose.  The same applies to my writing.  I don't force any to read it, so they can put it down if they want to.  It may be a Machiavellian thing I am doing, but when I use "laid" in the above example it's in the last paragraph!  How funny is that?  The reader is going to have to quit reading the story in the last paragraph!  They won't even know how it ended!
> 
> So, let me decide.  You answered my questions.  Thank you.  Let me make the choice.  Let others make their own choices.  Let others go to Grammar Jail if they choose to.  If I choose to break the eternal laws of grammar, so be it.  If I choose not to, so be it.  Let it be, let it be.



It wasn't my intention to be snippy, but there's been a lot of occurrences of people posting threads to get advice on a number of things and then rejecting the advice out of hand because it doesn't coincide with what they want the answer to be or think it should be. That's an exercise in futility which I cannot reconcile.


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## tabasco5 (Apr 13, 2013)

Again, I appreciate the comments, but let others make their own decisions.  I write for my own pleasure.  I don't plan on being published.  I was debating whether to use lay or laid and I have chosen laid.  It is the voice of my character.  It is stylistic.  If I release the story on this forum I will be sure to include a warning.  There are many other violations of grammar laws in the peace.  I mean the piece.


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## Sam (Apr 14, 2013)

If you were always going to use 'laid', why did you post the thread to start with? You asked for advice, and every single person who responded has told you that the correct answer is 'lay', and yet here we are. This is why I post less and less in these sorts of threads. Some people don't want advice; they want to confirm they're right and can't accept it when that doesn't turn out to be true. 

By all means go ahead and make a mockery of the laws of grammar, but I can assure you that readers won't see it as 'artistic licence'.


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## tabasco5 (Apr 14, 2013)

One of you--and I think I know who it was--reported me to the Grammar Police!  They have harassed me day and night and now the IGS has subpoenaed all of my work!   I guess I should have listened.  I'm going to be doing some major time for this one...


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## Sam (Apr 15, 2013)

That's real mature. 

Do you know what a publisher will say about someone who thinks grammar is an artistic choice? "This person doesn't take their craft seriously, and I don't take them seriously". And since this thread is an exercise in futility, I'm done.


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## Cran (Apr 15, 2013)

fenbields5 said:


> It is similar to lighted a cigarette.  That may be correct, but I would never use it.


It's not, and I would never use it either; it's _lit_ a cigarette.


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## tabasco5 (Apr 15, 2013)

Sam said:


> Do you know what a publisher will say about someone who thinks grammar is an artistic choice? "This person doesn't take their craft seriously, and I don't take them seriously". And since this thread is an exercise in futility, I'm done.



Publishers are allowed to say what they want to--that is the free market.  Before this thread I thought writers had free choice as well.  Since I will not be submitting my work to a publisher I really don't have to worry about it anyways now do I?

Just before you leave, let me say that I am currently using lay for the sentence.  I am going to let it ruminate and allow my character to make the final decision.


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## Jon M (Apr 15, 2013)

fenbields5 said:


> Before this thread I thought writers had free choice as well.  Since I will not be submitting my work to a publisher I really don't have to worry about it anyways now do I?


Writers can always choose which rules to follow and which to ignore. I think the miscommunication in this thread stems from the assumption most of us had that you were a serious writer, intent on publication one day. In that case, yes, you kind of have to stick with the rules of grammar or you're just going to receive rejection letter after letter. But since this is apparently not your goal, feel free to use whichever form of _lay _sounds best. Use all three simultaneously for all we care.


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## tabasco5 (Apr 15, 2013)

Assumptions assumptions.  Simply answering questions without assumptions goes a long way.


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## Jon M (Apr 15, 2013)

fenbields5 said:


> Simply answering questions without assumptions goes a long way.


Your question was answered, quite simply, by a lot of people who know a whole hell of a lot about a) writing; b) editing; and c) publishing. 

Usually when people show up here their intention is to improve. They'd like to publish someday. So it's a reasonable assumption to have. Since you don't care about publishing, or the rules of grammar, apparently, do as you wish. Kind of wondering why you started the thread in the first place.


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## tabasco5 (Apr 15, 2013)

I started the thread because I had a question.  I got the answer.  I appreciate the answerers.  But when people start speaking of "laws of grammar" and that these laws cannot be violated, well, that goes too far.  You see, writing is an art.  Artists can use what is known as "artistic license," which basically means that they can choose to do what they want with their pieces.  There are no "laws of grammar," but merely commonly accepted rules.  Some people like sticking to social norms and rules.  These people operate inside a defined box and dare not test the boundaries.  There are others that do not accept any rules.  They are known as rebels or individualists.  Then there are some that give and take from both sides.  Now, I do not advocate for either side, but try and allow others to choose on their own.  Telling another they must do something this way or ______ would make me appear to be a douche sack.  So I try and simply tell the questioner what the answer is given my understanding of the situation without assumptions.  If the questioner then asks for further advice such as "what would a standard boring publisher think of using this word..." then I would give them advice where I could.  Outside of that, the forum is to help others improve as you say.  For those who want to create their own style, this may mean breaking outside of the commonly accepted norms.  That is fine, that is okay.  Or is it?  What kind of forum is this?  Am I in the wrong place?  What if I don't want to sound like everyone else or an autobot?  Should I go elsewhere?

Since I have received so much flak and keep getting PMs, let me give some background on my story to provide some clarity.  One night I was camping by the lake when my character started speaking and I heard.  I wrote down what he said.  My character doesn't use "correct grammar," but uses everyday "colloquial" language.  So I didn't argue with him, I just wrote out his story like he told me.  Now he didn't intend for his story to be an academic masterpiece, but merely a story.  He told the story to me in colloquial language, so that's how I had to write it.  I really didn't have a choice.  There were a couple of parts, however, that I decided to edit.  The laid/lay example being one of them.  Well it got to be so confusing that I decide to reach out to the experts here at WF.  I got a little more than I bargained for, but relayed the information to my character.  He said that since he was dead he didn't much care about the "laws of grammar" and to go with whatever word I felt fit the best.  I said okay.  Will do sir.  

So here I am beating on a dead horse forum thread to amuse myself and waste your time and mine and get in some finger stretches before I start writing on my story.  I never knew this would be so enjoyable and I appreciate you fellers for providing me this opportunity.  I will be sure to return the favor one day if only the good Lord allows it.  Again, thank you for the opportunity.


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## Jon M (Apr 15, 2013)

Your initial post did not mention colloquial language or give any indication of who the First Person narrator is. Unfortunate, too, since this little addition changes everything and would have probably influenced the responses here a great degree. First Person is unique in that the story is essentially the character's dialogue, and so using the wrong form of _lay_ could be fine, may aid in characterization. But, again, you failed to mention any of this. 

And all that stuff about artists and artistic license, rebels and rule-breakers, ... there's a few of us in this thread who do that very thing, but I suppose when you fail to adequately communicate and lump everybody in with the Grammar Police, well I suppose all that gets lost somehow.


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## tabasco5 (Apr 15, 2013)

Yes, that is my fault.  I assumed people would know that POV means Point of View and also narrator.  Lesson learned.


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## Jon M (Apr 15, 2013)

No, you assumed by "POV" we would somehow magically know you meant under-educated country bumpkin and not, say, Humbert Humbert.


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## tabasco5 (Apr 15, 2013)

I really didn't assume that.  I just asked a question.  The assumptions were made on the other end.  Judging by your description of the character, maybe you are thinking of another story though.  This is confusing!  Thanks.


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## ppsage (Apr 15, 2013)

While I am dismayed albeit slightly amused by the vigorous goal-moving defense exhibited by the original poster here, I'm not totally unsympathetic to the 'sounds bad' objection. I find it a ridiculous construction to have the simple past of the intransitive verb the same as the much more prevalent present tense of a transitive verb of such closely complementary definition and have no doubt that it causes for many readers the sensation of a momentary tense error glitch. I avoid this by pretty much never employing the simple past of 'to lie,' when in the sense of personal reclining. To this end the lovely past participle, 'lain,' can generally be usefully employed in a sentence of only slightly greater complexity, as can, of course, a myriad of nearly synonymous verbs unencumbered by this unfortunate homonymity. I am not in the habit of allowing my spirit characters to dictate grammar to me, except with the understanding that they will appear in quotation, where, of course, grammar issues do not so readily penetrate.


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## Robert_S (Apr 20, 2013)

fenbields5 said:


> Wow, I never knew it was outside the realm of possibility for writers to write how they wanted to.



It would be fine, in dialog, if the person speaking wasn't highly educated or didn't bother to recall the intricacies of grammar rules, but in narration, if the narrator is supposed to be reliable, I believe it matters.


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## tabasco5 (Apr 21, 2013)

Robert_S said:


> It would be fine, in dialog, if the person speaking wasn't highly educated or didn't bother to recall the intricacies of grammar rules, but in narration, if the narrator is supposed to be reliable, I believe it matters.



For this story, there is no dialogue.  It is told strictly in first-person, more as a recollection I guess you would call it.  My character never told me his level of education, but I doubt he would care for any kind of intricacies.  Part of the reason for the story is that he broke free from his old life which was full of rules and deadlines and other frustrations, so I'm sure he would be more than glad to upset a few members of the GP.  I also think he would rather be of the unreliable sort--not wanting to let too many people depend on him.  Thanks for clearing that up.


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## ppsage (Apr 21, 2013)

> so I'm sure he would be more than glad to upset a few members of the GP.


I done be lain down in that canoe belly, like a tapeworm in pig hog gut.


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## tabasco5 (Apr 22, 2013)

ppsage said:


> I done be lain down in that canoe belly, like a tapeworm in pig hog gut.



And then, as I was a tryin' to die myself in peace, them there GP come along and told me 'bout all them grammar laws I broke as a child.  I says officer I was only 5 years old!  He says, sorry son.  Laws is laws.  Come on out o that belly of that there canoe.  Your a gonna die in my belly!  Bad grammar is dead I tell you!  Dead!


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## jayelle_cochran (Apr 25, 2013)

I am so glad that this post was written.  I have trouble with the whole lay, lie, laid, etc.  It's great to see it written out though for some reason it's still confusing.  I'll get over it I bet.  It's mostly because I personally have been writing these words incorrectly for so long (only started paying real attention to grammar recently).

As for the little argument about grammar rules...I have to agree that you can't invent them.  But, I also agree that a writer can choose not to follow them.  Though, an editor will point them all out.  So, it's better to at least try to get the rules right.  Just my opinion.

I think this is such an issue because we're all taught about past tense as having an "ed" ending.  So, it makes sense that so many people think that "laid" is the past to "lay" and that "lay" is present.  Then you wonder where "lie" comes into play.  It's enough to make your head explode.

Why does English have to be so damn difficult?  Seriously!  lol

*hugs*
Jayelle

ALSO...for some reason I didn't notice that this had 3 pages and only read the first page...so that's what I was talking about there.  I'll go slink away in embarrassment now.


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