# Gorilla killed in ZOO



## Schrody (May 30, 2016)

I'm sure most of you heard what happened on May 28th at Cincinnati ZOO. 4 year old "fell" (better yet, sneaked to because I'm sure the ZOO has a several fences or other protection in order to keep a distance between caged animals and humans) into a silverback gorilla's cage, which then had to be shot in order to save a child. Don't blame the kid, blame the irresponsible parents. The kid's okay, and nothing will bring back an innocent animal that just followed its primal instincts. But there is something you can do - you can sign *this petition*, and let someone pay for his death. Personally, I think the parents should be charged for neglect (yes, nobody has their kids on their eyes 24/7, but if you go to the ZOO, or any other large gathering, a smart thing to do would be to hold the child's hand), and pay the compensation to the ZOO for a lost life, a death that could've been easily prevented.


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## dither (May 30, 2016)

deleted.


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## dale (May 30, 2016)

i watched the actual video of that incident. sorry...but if that was my kid being dragged around by the gorilla like that?
i would have shot it myself. sorry about the gorilla's luck, but there's no way i wouldn't have killed it.


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## Deleted member 56686 (May 30, 2016)

I did hear about it and it was sad. If only there could have been a happier ending. 

There was an incident in a zoo some years ago. I think it might have been in Chicago. In that incidence, a young child fell into the gorilla exhibit. Instead of attacking the kid though, the gorilla held the kid in her arms until help was able to get to the child. The gorilla probably was just acting on her maternal instincts but she was hailed as something of a hero by some people.


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## Schrody (May 30, 2016)

dale said:


> i watched the actual video of that incident. sorry...but if that was my kid being dragged around by the gorilla like that?
> i would have shot it myself. sorry about the gorilla's luck, but there's no way i wouldn't have killed it.



If your kid was down there it would meant you weren't supervising it, and that's your job as a parent! Shit happened, and it didn't have to happen!


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## dither (May 30, 2016)

How is it that the child was able to get into the enclosure? Doesn't the Zoo have some responsibility here?


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## Schrody (May 30, 2016)

mrmustard615 said:


> I did hear about it and it was sad. If only there could have been a happier ending.
> 
> There was an incident in a zoo some years ago. I think it might have been in Chicago. In that incidence, a young child fell into the gorilla exhibit. Instead of attacking the kid though, the gorilla held the kid in her arms until help was able to get to the child. The gorilla probably was just acting on her maternal instincts but she was hailed as something of a hero by some people.



I believe the gorilla didn't want to hurt a kid...


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## dither (May 30, 2016)

mrmustard615 said:


> I did hear about it and it was sad. If only there could have been a happier ending.
> 
> There was an incident in a zoo some years ago. I think it might have been in Chicago. In that incidence, a young child fell into the gorilla exhibit. Instead of attacking the kid though, the gorilla held the kid in her arms until help was able to get to the child. The gorilla probably was just acting on her maternal instincts but she was hailed as something of a hero by some people.



Yes i remember that, pretty amazing wasn't it. It seemed to be protecting the child and backed off when the keepers went in.


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## Schrody (May 30, 2016)

dither said:


> How is it that the child was able to get into the enclosure? Doesn't the Zoo have some responsibility here?



Maybe. I've never been at that ZOO (obviously), but I know that every ZOO has barriers in order to separate animals and humans. I've seen grown men consciously skip them, how could you expect anything else from a kid? It's like someone said in the commentaries - what if your child falls from a balcony? Should you sue the constructor? I think it's time to stop shifting the responsibility to someone else. The mother was supposed to hold a kid's hand.


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## dale (May 30, 2016)

Schrody said:


> I believe the gorilla didn't want to hurt a kid...


i also believe the gorilla didn't have it in it's mind to hurt the kid. but that's kind of irrelevant. the thing was recklessly dragging
the child by the arm thru water and stone. you take a kid to the zoo. there's wild animals there. you know that. i remember letting my 
kid when she was 3 feed a giraffe at the zoo. people generally think giraffes are peaceful animals. the giraffe was peaceful. she fed
it. it ate out of her hand. she had fun. but it's still a wild animal. what if the giraffe would have bit her hand and lifted her up
and flung her thru the air over it's shoulder? would i have been a bad parent for letting her feed it? would the zoo be at fault? it's
not a guaranteed "safe-space" when you deal with wild animals. you don't know what's going on in their minds. i'm just saying....
....hey. it's a zoo. shit happens.


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## PiP (May 30, 2016)

Unfortunately, accidents happen. The child should have been supervised, yes, but before we accuse the parents or zoo of negligence are we aware of the true facts? We can't always assume the parents are in the wrong because, as a parent of three under three, I know how easy it is to get distracted for one moment and they are into mischief.


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## Kevin (May 30, 2016)

Before casting blame I would have to study all the facts of the case. So far as is known, in however many years of existence no other patron has managed to elude the barrier to that enclosure, but... There are rules in place, codes, such as a minimum gap between vertical fence pieces, smaller than 4" to prevent a toddler from hanging themselves... I wonder what sort of codes if any were either violated or  not maintained here? How was it that a four year-old was able to get through and into the enclosure? There must've been a gap somewhere or was the child able to climb over? What were the parents doing at this time and where was the supervision? How much time was involved in the child's leaving the normal viewing area to their gaining access?

So you see Madam Schrodster, despite your feelings of outrage (which i am sure we all share) we must weigh things carefully before we proceed with the taking up of the pitchforks and torches, and burning the monster up in the windmill.


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## Schrody (May 30, 2016)

dale said:


> i also believe the gorilla didn't have it in it's mind to hurt the kid. but that's kind of irrelevant. the thing was recklessly dragging
> the child by the arm thru water and stone. you take a kid to the zoo. there's wild animals there. you know that. i remember letting my
> kid when she was 3 feed a giraffe at the zoo. people generally think giraffes are peaceful animals. the giraffe was peaceful. she fed
> it. it ate out of her hand. she had fun. but it's still a wild animal. what if the giraffe would have bit her hand and lifted her up
> ...



Feeding animals (when ZOO allows it, if they don't it's your own fault) and crossing the barriers which are there for a reason is not the same.



PiP said:


> Unfortunately, accidents happen. The child should have been supervised, yes, but before we accuse the parents or zoo of negligence are we aware of the true facts? We can't always assume the parents are in the wrong because, as a parent of three under three, I know how easy it is to get distracted for one moment and they are into mischief.



I'm aware of that, but I surely wouldn't let go of my kid's hand in crowded places, especially not in the presence of animals..


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## PiP (May 30, 2016)

> I'm aware of that, but I surely wouldn't let go of my kid's hand in crowded places, especially not in the presence of animals..



Do you have children? If not, I can tell you now that you need eyes in the back of your head, especially with a four year old. an holding onto a child's hand ALL the time is not realistic especially if you have more than one. For example, you pay for icecreams, go to your handbag for a drinks, tissues or whatever.


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## dither (May 30, 2016)

PiP said:


> Do you have children? If not, I can tell you now that you need eyes in the back of your head, especially with a four year old. an holding onto a child's hand ALL the time is not realistic.



Yup.
Never a truer word spoken.


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## PrinzeCharming (May 30, 2016)

I am no parent. _(And if I am, none of those 6 women reported for not paying child support since 2010.) _I am no zoo employee. I do, however, understand the concerns involved. On the zoo's behalf, that's a critically endangered species. Was the species questioned before the shots were fired? No. The child was the main priority. There are many other options. Gorillas are negotiators. Bring them food. Why didn't they treat the scenario as a hostage situation? They probably felt it would be too late for the child's safety and well-being. A tranquilizer would have taken longer considering the size of the gorilla. The situation would have ended differently. The gorilla saw the crowd of people yelling, and protected the child in the corner before being dragged. There was an interview where a woman said the child wanted to go inside. The parents denied their son. The son took action on his own. Despite being dragged, the child was reported with non-life threatening injuries. Someone has the real story; the boy and the parents. 

Prayers and condolences for the animals, zoo staff, and communities involved.


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## dither (May 30, 2016)

PiP said:


> Unfortunately, accidents happen. The child should have been supervised, yes, but before we accuse the parents or zoo of negligence are we aware of the true facts? We can't always assume the parents are in the wrong because, as a parent of three under three, I know how easy it is to get distracted for one moment and they are into mischief.



Where's the "totally agree" tab?


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## Sonata (May 30, 2016)

mrmustard615 said:


> I did hear about it and it was sad. If only there could have been a happier ending.
> 
> There was an incident in a zoo some years ago. I think it might have been in Chicago. In that incidence, a young child fell into the gorilla exhibit. Instead of attacking the kid though, the gorilla held the kid in her arms until help was able to get to the child. The gorilla probably was just acting on her maternal instincts but she was hailed as something of a hero by some people.



There have been two other incidents of children falling into gorilla enclosures.

On August 31, 1986, five-year-old Levan Merritt fell into the gorilla enclosure at Jersey Zoo and lost consciousness.
 Jambo the ‘Gentle Giant’ stood guard over the child, protecting him against other gorillas in the enclosure.

[video=youtube;W-CMxMv34_A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-CMxMv34_A[/video]

On August 19, 1996, a three-year-old boy fell nearly 20ft into the Western Lowland Gorilla Pit at the Brookfield Zoo.  A female gorilla named Binti Jua picked the child up, cradled him and carried him to to an access entrance where staff could get to him.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...wo-children-lives_uk_574bee90e4b0ebf6a329ce8c


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## WALTEREGO (May 30, 2016)

In a similar vein, a man recently tried to commit suicide by stripping naked and throwing himself at a lion.  it is only humans who take creatures out of their natural habitat for the visual gratification of other humans and when things go wrong or someone finds a breech the animal dies. progress??


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## Sleepwriter (May 30, 2016)

Action had to be taken, there is no way to know what the gorilla would have done.    Dragging something on the ground is NOT the way you show you care about it.


It's sad that the gorilla had to be killed, it's not like he coaxed the boy in there with some candy.


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## Firemajic (May 30, 2016)

There are a lot of mitigating factors that lead to this tragic event.. A child slipping away from his parents, a Gorilla who has been desensitized and over exposed to humans and has lost his innate fear... The Zoo, for no foreseeing EVERY scenario...But, in the end, the life of the child took top priority, as it should. I am always sick when I see how we as humans continue to exploit animals...


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## Schrody (May 30, 2016)

Kevin said:


> Before casting blame I would have to study all the facts of the case. So far as is known, in however many years of existence no other patron has managed to elude the barrier to that enclosure, but... There are rules in place, codes, such as a minimum gap between vertical fence pieces, smaller than 4" to prevent a toddler from hanging themselves... I wonder what sort of codes if any were either violated or  not maintained here? How was it that a four year-old was able to get through and into the enclosure? There must've been a gap somewhere or was the child able to climb over? What were the parents doing at this time and where was the supervision? How much time was involved in the child's leaving the normal viewing area to their gaining access?
> 
> So you see Madam Schrodster, despite your feelings of outrage (which i am sure we all share) we must weigh things carefully before we proceed with the taking up of the pitchforks and torches, and burning the monster up in the windmill.



I'm not taking up pitchforks for anyone, and while the ZOO may have some responsibility on their hands, the parents have even more.


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## LeeC (May 30, 2016)

Any thoughts as to where the parents were?


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## Schrody (May 30, 2016)

PiP said:


> Do you have children? If not, I can tell you now that you need eyes in the back of your head, especially with a four year old. an holding onto a child's hand ALL the time is not realistic especially if you have more than one. For example, you pay for icecreams, go to your handbag for a drinks, tissues or whatever.



No, dear PiP, I don't have children of my own, but I babysitted. A lot. And while it's not the same, I assure you I've been looking over them like a hawk, because I knew shit happens when you're not. I know you can't watch them 24/7, but you should in a situations like those. I never took the kids I babysit to the ZOO, but I've taken them elsewhere, and they were always holding my hands, even when they wanted to run away from me, I held their little hands tight because the thought of something happening to them was devastating. And those were the kids of complete strangers. You would expect to look after your own even better. 



WALTEREGO said:


> In a similar vein, a man recently tried to commit suicide by stripping naked and throwing himself at a lion.  it is only humans who take creatures out of their natural habitat for the visual gratification of other humans and when things go wrong or someone finds a breech the animal dies. progress??



Yes, poor lions.  That person obviously wanted to kill himself, and the sad part is, he's gonna try again. And who's gonna pay for the damage he caused?



Sleepwriter said:


> Action had to be taken, there is no way to know what the gorilla would have done. *   Dragging something on the ground is NOT the way you show you care about it.*



I'm sure that what gorilla sees as normal, and what you see as normal, is not the same thing. It was obvious that gorilla was scared of the people shouting.


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## Schrody (May 30, 2016)

LeeC said:


> Any thoughts as to where the parents were?



Some say she went for a beer (mother), some say she was taking selfies, some say... who knows? And it doesn't matter. She wasn't there where she was supposed to.


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## Firemajic (May 30, 2016)

Schrody said:


> I'm not taking up pitchforks for anyone, and while the ZOO may have some responsibility on their hands, the parents have even more.




I agree with you Schrody, this could have and SHOULD have been avoided... there are 2 innocents here... the child and the gorilla....


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## Sonata (May 30, 2016)

Schrody said:


> Some say she went for a beer (mother), some say she was taking selfies, some say... who knows? And it doesn't matter. She wasn't there where she was supposed to.



The father is not mentioned but according to various reports the mother had several children with her and the child involved had been heard to say he wanted to go into the water.  He was not seriously hurt and was released from hospital on Saturday evening.  There are more details here, including a statement posted on Facebook by the child's mother.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...witnesses-say-animal-acting-protectively.html


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## Phil Istine (May 30, 2016)

That video sheds a different light on the incident for me; the one I saw  on Facebook was heavily cut and didn't show the kid being dragged  through the water.  They probably had little choice but to shoot it -  much as it pains me to say that.  Although it was clearly not attacking  the child, its actions could have killed him.
Pointing fingers of blame is irrelevant as you have to deal with whatever situation you arrive at.
My negative views on keeping animals in captivity, and my personal  decision never to eat meat or fish unless in a survival situation, are  also irrelevant.
All I can do is keep my own side of the street clean - never visit a zoo.

As for child supervision, I'm not going to cast stones.  I remember  losing a child who ran off into a crowd when he thought he saw his mum.   They can make really fast getaways and are hard to spot as they are so  much shorter than everyone else.  Thirty seconds later, he ran back to  me from the crowd saying, "It wasn't her" - totally oblivious to my  panic.  I was about to climb up on a statue to see if I could pick him  out (how to get thrown out of a museum in one easy lesson).
And that was just looking after one child.


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## Bard_Daniel (May 30, 2016)

Poor gorilla. 

At least the child was not seriously harmed.


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## Terry D (May 30, 2016)

Terrible shame. I wasn't there and any account I get now will be someone else's version. There is probably plenty of blame to go around, but none of it belongs to the gorilla.


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## PrinzeCharming (May 30, 2016)

Sleepwriter said:


> Action had to be taken, there is no way to know what the gorilla would have done.    Dragging something on the ground is NOT the way you show you care about it.




Something wasn't dragged. It was _someone_. A very young boy. 










Visitors left flowers at Gorilla World at Cincinnati Zoo & Botanical Garden. Picture: John Minchillo/AP​


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## Sleepwriter (May 30, 2016)

PrinzeCharming said:


> Something wasn't dragged. It was _someone_. A very young boy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




okay, you missed my point.    If you have someone/something you care about, you are not going to drag it across the ground.   Plus we are talking about a wild animal. We have no way of knowing if it knew what a 'boy' was.   Therefore, it was a 'thing' to the gorilla.


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## The Green Shield (May 31, 2016)

Sleepwriter said:


> okay, you missed my point.    If you have someone/something you care about, you are not going to drag it across the ground.   Plus we are talking about a wild animal. We have no way of knowing if it knew what a 'boy' was.   Therefore, it was a 'thing' to the gorilla.


I concur; gorillas are wild animals and this one learned the very fatal lesson on what happens when you mess with mama's baby. While this incident was tragic and very needless (keep your eye on your kids, folks!!) gorillas are wild, they're not Terk from the Disney Tarzan movie.

The zookeepers did the right thing, even if the parent(s) were being stupid and not watching the boy. A life was in peril, and they chose correctly.


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## Terry D (May 31, 2016)

There's nothing wrong with a well-run, well-maintained, humane zoo. In fact there are a number of species (like the California Condor) only existing today because of zoo breeding programs. Unfortunately, only 233 of the 2,400 registered 'Animal Exhibitors' in the US are accredited by the American Zoological Association. The difference can be much like that between responsible dog breeders and 'puppy-mills'.


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## dale (May 31, 2016)

The Green Shield said:


> I concur; gorillas are wild animals and this one learned the very fatal lesson on what happens when you mess with mama's baby. While this incident was tragic and very needless (keep your eye on your kids, folks!!) gorillas are wild, they're not Terk from the Disney Tarzan movie.
> 
> The zookeepers did the right thing, even if the parent(s) were being stupid and not watching the boy. A life was in peril, and they chose correctly.



according to all the witnesses, the boy kept bugging his mother to let him "go down to the water". she repeatedly told him no.
but he wan't the only child being taken to the zoo that day. she had 3 or 4 kids there. so as soon as she turns to pay attention
to another kid for a second, the boy darts off where he wanted to go. sorry. i don't buy into all this "she's a bad, neglectful mom"
horseshit. that could have happened to any parent who takes a handful of kids somewhere.


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## bdcharles (May 31, 2016)

Schrody said:


> I'm sure most of you heard what happened on May 28th at Cincinnati ZOO. 4 year old "fell" (better yet, sneaked to because I'm sure the ZOO has a several fences or other protection in order to keep a distance between caged animals and humans) into a silverback gorilla's cage, which then had to be shot in order to save a child. Don't blame the kid, blame the irresponsible parents. The kid's okay, and nothing will bring back an innocent animal that just followed its primal instincts. But there is something you can do - you can sign *this petition*, and let someone pay for his death. Personally, I think the parents should be charged for neglect (yes, nobody has their kids on their eyes 24/7, but if you go to the ZOO, or any other large gathering, a smart thing to do would be to hold the child's hand), and pay the compensation to the ZOO for a lost life, a death that could've been easily prevented.



No, I'm not going to sign this. Not because I don't care about gorillas (I do; as much as any animal) but because I don't think the parents are to blame, as the petition suggests. Kids can be very slippery and can get away very easily in many cases. In this situation, there was very little choice as to what the zoo should have done. Experts agree that tranquilisers may have aggravated the situation. It's bad, but what other choice? The zoo might find itself in court for not having updated it's cage for 30 years, and that's just dandy by me, but the petition doesn't discuss that, preferring to lay blame on parents for no good ***king reason and a whole lot of conjecture. Come on people, the world needs less ugliness, not more.

If you want to vent ire on slack parenting, then for crying out loud save it for this lot (<- caution: distressing story)


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## PiP (May 31, 2016)

bdcharles said:


> If you want to vent ire on slack parenting, then for crying out loud save it for this lot (<- caution: distressing story)



It breaks my heart when I read stories like this.


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## dale (May 31, 2016)

the fact is...it's unreasonably stupid to believe this woman was a bad parent. and anyone who IS a parent understands this.
why? because bad parents simply do not take their kids to the zoo for a family outing. there is nothing 'selfish' an adult can do
at the fucking zoo. i can't pick up chicks there. i can't party and get drunk or snort coke there. bad parents simply don't take their
kids to the zoo. when i took my kid to the zoo? it was totally my kid's day. so to act like this woman is a bad parent is like retarded to me.


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## PiP (Jun 1, 2016)

dale said:


> the fact is...it's unreasonably stupid to believe this woman was a bad parent. and anyone who IS a parent understands this.
> why? because bad parents simply do not take their kids to the zoo for a family outing. there is nothing 'selfish' an adult can do
> at the fucking zoo. i can't pick up chicks there. i can't party and get drunk or snort coke there. bad parents simply don't take their
> kids to the zoo.



I agree, Dale. As a society we are quick to judge. This is an extract from a newspaper



> 'As a society we are quick to judge how a parent could take their eyes off of their child and if anyone knows me I keep a tight watch on my kids. Accidents happen but I am thankful that the right people were in the right place today.'
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...animal-acting-protectively.html#ixzz4AJM8IjV4
> Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook



The loss of the Gorilla is tragic, but I can bet you a million pounds if they had just tranquilized the animal instead of shot it and the Gorilla had killed the child in panic, then the Zoo would still have been wrong and the Media would still have been screaming for blood. The Zoo was in a 'No Win' situation.

The media are soaking this up and making out the mother was a bad parent.


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## Phil Istine (Jun 1, 2016)

One sinister part for me is the racism that has been appearing on some parts of the internet.  The parents happen to be black and some are linking black skin with being a bad parent - not to mention some other derogatory remarks about genetics.  I won't repeat them here but it doesn't take a genius to imagine them.
I don't believe in the blame game but my view is that if zoos are to exist as a necessary evil in order to conserve some species, the barriers should be TOTALLY child-proof, even if that means spoiling the aesthetics.  Either that or fund them from taxation and exclude visitors.  If our real goal is conservation rather than profiteering, put our money where our mouths are and pay for it from tax.


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## dale (Jun 1, 2016)

for real? the whole she-bang has been a molehill turned into a mountain by our idiotic media. the whole thing is stupid.
a gorilla died. ooooooo...like it's a big fucking deal. gorillas die every day in the wild for far less shit. who cares? what
the fuck is everyone having a cow about, anyway? go eat a cheeseburger. an animal suffered a far worse death for that
 cheeseburger you're shoving in your mouth. the child is safe now. who cares about the damn gorilla?


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## JustRob (Jun 1, 2016)

I shouldn't comment, having neither been responsible for confining wild animals or wild children. However, I assume that the behaviour of children is governed by what they know and in this case I would have hoped that the child had been told about wild animals and what the zoo was for before they visited it. I get the feeling that it was just another playground to this youngster and that he had no inkling of the reason for being there. That is a shame simply because it means that he wasn't really benefitting from the experience. 

When I was young I had a book entitled _Zoo Days, _which was about a family going to the zoo on several occasions. In this case the father was abroad for a spell and the mother was having to cope with the children alone. She spent time explaining about the animals to the children, both before and during the visits, so they were in the right frame of mind and enjoyed the specific experience.

No, I haven't raised children but I have been responsible for "educating" a number of computers. The principle is much the same to my mind. You feed in the right information to prepare them for their activities and then you let them run and trust that you have done a good job. I would agree that one cannot fault the mother for failing to supervise the child all the time, but perhaps she had failed in a wider sense and that was the reason for this sad event.

I see many mothers and children in the supermarket every week. There the mother has a task to do and the children can easily wander off. The good mother controls that by involving the children in her task and talking to them about it. Only recently I mentioned here in WF the mother who said to her child "We have to buy a new toothbrush because you dropped mummy's down the toilet." It gave us a laugh at the time but she was teaching her son about consequences. I have seen young children randomly taking items from shelves and getting scolded but others being useful by selecting items under their mothers' direction. Surely one doesn't just herd unruly children assuming that one day they will turn into responsible adults like butterflies after the metamorphosis of puberty. 

I understand that she had several children. How old were they and were any older than the four year old and tasked with keeping an eye on him or were they all totally self-centred? We once stayed with a family with twelve children and they were organised as a group because the parents took parenting seriously and used a little psychology. That home ran like clockwork and we were very well treated while there. It could so easily have been total chaos. 

It seems to me that the answer is down there in my signature. The reality is that one should share the experience fully with one's children. Perhaps like the little boy in the second chapter of my novel they may perceive it somewhat differently, but they aren't so likely to come to harm if they have some idea of where they are and what is going on. It's like writing. One must inform and involve one's audience to keep them on the right track.


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## Phil Istine (Jun 1, 2016)

dale said:


> for real? the whole she-bang has been a molehill turned into a mountain by our idiotic media. the whole thing is stupid.
> a gorilla died. ooooooo...like it's a big fucking deal. gorillas die every day in the wild for far less shit. who cares? what
> the fuck is everyone having a cow about, anyway? go eat a cheeseburger. an animal suffered a far worse death for that
> cheeseburger you're shoving in your mouth. the child is safe now. who cares about the damn gorilla?



I take the view that if you imprison something or someone, even for its own survival, you owe it a duty of care.
And I don't eat meat or fish anyway, but I do feel sorry for the cheese.


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## dale (Jun 1, 2016)

Phil Istine said:


> I take the view that if you imprison something or someone, even for its own survival, you owe it a duty of care.
> And I don't eat meat or fish anyway, but I do feel sorry for the cheese.



well, did you ever think that those heads of broccoli that are sliced off at the neck and devoured might have feelings too?


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## PiP (Jun 1, 2016)

This thread is now closed. We have a no debate policy at WF. However, this has not only turned into a debate it is now WAY off-topic. Sorry, folks.


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