# Arizona



## Writ-with-Hand (May 1, 2010)

Milwaukee's coming for your ass.

Milwaukee annually hosts one of the largest Latino immigration marches in the country.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/92584299.html



> *Alderman proposes boycott of Arizona businesses *
> 
> By Sharif Durhams  of the Journal Sentinel
> Posted: May 1, 2010 11:42 a.m. |(12)  Comments
> ...


----------



## Writ-with-Hand (May 1, 2010)

http://www.cbs58.com/index.php?aid=12146



> Article  Author: *Dustin Vrab*
> Milwaukee immigration rally could draw  thousands
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Linton Robinson (May 1, 2010)

What rights to people have when they are illegally in another country?
I live in another country.  I'm not allowed to work here.  I let my visa lapse and one point and was given three days to get out of the country or get arrested.  What rights did I have at that point?

What rights do you have when you enter a place without permission?


----------



## moderan (May 1, 2010)

In Arizona, this is a major-league hot-button. That's where the discussion belongs. If you don't live here, or in a border state, or across the border, I seriously doubt that you really understand the issue.
Milwaukee, schmilwaukee. Try San Diego, Nogales, El Paso, Santa Fe. The governor of Arizona let the bill pass in part to initiate a national dialogue about the problem. Looks like it worked.


----------



## Linton Robinson (May 1, 2010)

Anybody who would take the trouble to move to Milwaukee from Mexico even legally is missing a couple of bricks in their toilet tank anyway.


----------



## Sigg (May 1, 2010)

Yeah the whole illegal immigration thing is HUGE in california too, even moreso than AZ I'd say since many mexicans make the argument that California is rightfully a part of mexico.

It bugs me when people try to lock it up with a simple statement like, "All illegals should get carted off to mexico and we should build a big wall with armed guards, blah blah blah", it's not that simple.



> Anybody who would take the trouble to move to Milwaukee from Mexico even legally is missing a couple of bricks in their toilet tank anyway.


 
Hah, good stuff


----------



## AA (May 1, 2010)

I would say it is just as big in Texas as well.


----------



## NaClmine (May 1, 2010)

If you think illegal Mexican immigration is a problem, just wait until the illegal Russian population gets "discovered". Here in Sacramento, car theft and chop shops run by illegal Russian immigrants are proliferating, and these guys are as cold-blooded as any Mexican cartels.


----------



## Writ-with-Hand (May 1, 2010)

lin said:


> Anybody who would take the trouble to move to Milwaukee from Mexico even legally is missing a couple of bricks in their toilet tank anyway.



:lol: Very funny, Lin. And welcome back.

Regardless of who is right or who is wrong on the immigration issue what I find most interesting is the proposed boycott of Arizona goods.

They call politics the "art of the possible" yes?

With respects to ethnic or racial politics (think about the Irish who virtually run Chicago or the Italians in New York's building trades and such correlation to city contracts) Latinos and more specifically the Mexicans evidently have some political and economic weight all the way into heartland USA when this becomes proposed:



> The Milwaukee Common Council will consider a boycott of Arizona-based   companies in the wake of the state's controversial law cracking down on   illegal immigration.


I'm told that the Italians and Sicilians in Milwaukee forced the city to give them land to construct their large Italian community center on when the city wiped out the Sicilian neighborhood. What is interesting - at least for me - in that story is that I'm told *most the money to build the center came from Italians in Chicago*.

I would not discount the impact Mexicans outside of Arizona or other cities outside of Arizona can make on Arizona.


----------



## Writ-with-Hand (May 1, 2010)

NaClmine said:


> If you think illegal Mexican immigration is a problem, just wait until the illegal Russian population gets "discovered". Here in Sacramento, car theft and chop shops run by illegal Russian immigrants are proliferating, and these guys are as cold-blooded as any Mexican cartels.



Yeah, Russians are all over the U.S. too.

There's actually a lot of Russians in Milwaukee too. "The Donald Trump of Milwaukee" is a Russian immigrant and got caught in some medicare scam several years back. I worked on one of his condos he built on the East side. I remember walking past a number of the white construction workers and they were speaking a distinctly sounding Eastern European language. It's just one of those things that sticks in my memory.

I have it on good word Russian mobsters operate here too. Many years ago I was going to buy a bunch of assault rifles through one via a White-American middle man. But I was never able to raise the money.


----------



## Writ-with-Hand (May 1, 2010)

Full article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_immigration_protests



> *Anger over Ariz. immigration law drives US rallies*
> 
> By SOPHIA TAREEN, Associated Press Writer        Sophia Tareen, Associated Press Writer          –     1 hr 20 mins ago
> 
> ...





> "It's racist," said Donna Sanchez, a 22-year-old U.S. citizen living  in Chicago whose parents illegally crossed the Mexican border. "I have  papers, but I want to help those who don't."
> 
> Organizers estimated about 20,000 gathered at a park  on Chicago's West Side and marched, but police said about 8,000 turned  out.


Local news reported the Latino march in Milwaukee was not as large as anticipated. It was believed tens of thousands would march but the news reported only about 5,000 marched.

I suppose that figure is more impressive in contrast to the New York city rally of 6,500 when one considers the per capita relation.


----------



## alanmt (May 1, 2010)

I think an intriguing and unexpected backlash of this legislation, according to one poll I reviewed, is the massive shift in hispanic voter loyalty away from Republicans, where socially conservative hispanics tended to favor, to the Democrats.  Governor Brewer may have unwittingly converted Arizona from a swing state to a blue state within a few years.


----------



## moderan (May 1, 2010)

Thereby completing Sen. McCain's work. I applaud politely.


----------



## Sigg (May 1, 2010)

> Here in Sacramento, car theft and chop shops run by illegal Russian immigrants are proliferating, and these guys are as cold-blooded as any Mexican cartels


 
At least in california the main complaint with illegal mexicans isn't that they are "cold-blooded".  Personally, I think the best option is to give them citizenship and then have them pay taxes like everyone else, no harm no foul.


----------



## Writ-with-Hand (May 2, 2010)

Canada's on that ass too. A Canadian woman marches with Latino's in Milwaukee march. An old Mexican woman from Texas says she's not getting kicked out of any more stores. 

News video: http://www.cbs58.com/index.php?aid=12150


----------



## Writ-with-Hand (May 2, 2010)

I wonder if Arizona's police would pull over officer Colon and question him about his citizenship?

America's Most Wanted seems to think he's an All-American type guy. He's one of eight national finalists up for an AMW award after gun fighting a 9 time felon.

http://www.amw.com/allstar/2010/nominee-detail.cfm?id=8622





> The suspect then retrieved his weapon and shot Officer Colon three times  in the abdomen. He was not wearing a protective vest. From the ground  Vidal returned fire ending the shootout but only after his gun jammed in  the process. He received the Purple Valor Award and the Medal of Honor Award as a  result of his actions during the incident.


----------



## Linton Robinson (May 2, 2010)

Ya know.... I'm sure all the hysterics about this law are saying it means "pull over anybody who looks Hispanic", but it really doesn't work like that. COULDN'T work like that.  That would be like saying,  "Detain anybody in DC who looks Black."

But there are a lot of clues and cues to people being wetbacks instead of Chicanos or immigrants.    I can spot them in a hot second.  Clothing clues (and how the clothes are worn),  footwear especially (you don't see many people walking around the street in cheap plastic shower shoes up North in the land of $10 shoe stores). There are a lot of tattoos that mean "Salvador" precisely.  Not to mention Salvatrucha tats, which are unmistakeable and say "Crime" in big letters as well.  There are habits of gait and speech patterns.   

It makes more sense than a lot of the laws you see now.   Where a wetback can't even be handed over to Immigration when he walks out of prison.


----------



## moderan (May 2, 2010)

Here it's huaraches. If you're wearing them, you're not an Arizonan. They're denounced the moment you're legal, in favor of nikes or pointy-toed boots. There's also the habit of showering. Again, there are many clues that have little to do with skin color. The cops know them better than I do, maybe better than Lin does. I dunno, he's been there awhile.


----------



## Linton Robinson (May 2, 2010)

One thing "_pollos_" do is get _cachuchos_, baseball hats with English logos. Of course they have no idea what they say. There's a possibly apocryphal tale of a guy who sold a bunch of  blemished  "Light Up The Border" hats just south of the border.  
Think fivefoot mahogany-skinned guy with huaraches and a Minuteman hat would rate a quick pullover in Nogales?


----------



## moderan (May 2, 2010)

On either side of the border. I like Nogales, but it's gotten way ugly. Used to be a tourist haven, and I betcha dollars to pan dulce that the Guv thinks we'd get more dinero from those tourists than from Milwaukee. During the day, the avenues of local shops and the corner tamale carts do land-office business even now, but at night the cantinas don't have the happy vibe.
The ugly has started to move into Douglas and Bisbee and as far up as Tombstone, and that's the kind of stuff the law wants to fight. Southern Arizona operates on the same kind of handshake corruption that rules south of the border, where it's right out in the open, accepted, part of business, and so entrenched that you can't do diddly about it except maybe campaign on a get-rid-of-the-bad-apple basis until you're brought in (should you win). Something like Chicago or New Orleans, now that I think about it.
The power structure doesn't really mind the minor drug trafficking. The human trafficking is another matter though.


----------



## BWOz (May 5, 2010)

Some very good points concerning the "new" controversy in Arizona. Funny that none of the other ethnic groups are complaining that it is all about racial profiling. What makes more sense, continuing to allow illegal immigrants to proliferate as they have for the past 30 years, or putting some common sense regulations in place. The Arizona law is exactly the same as the federal law, only it takes away the political correctness that now has police and boarder patrol agents at risk of being sued any time they arrest someone. Just last week a deputy sherif was shot by illegal aliens, a rancher was killed a month ago on his own land by suspected illegal aliens, I have illegals camping out behind my house on a regular basis and I'm sure if I did not have 3 loud, big dogs I would have been robbed my now.

I say anyone who disagrees with the law should first read the Arizona law, then the US law on the subject. They are essentially the same except now Arizona law enforcement has a state mandated legal authority to act.

BW


----------



## Olly Buckle (May 5, 2010)

lin said:


> What rights to people have when they are illegally in another country?
> I live in another country.  I'm not allowed to work here.  I let my visa lapse and one point and was given three days to get out of the country or get arrested.  What rights did I have at that point?
> 
> What rights do you have when you enter a place without permission?



Well, they ought to have all the rights extendedd to people in the United Nations declaration of human rights, which are quite considerable, these should extend to all humans everywhere no matter what their legal status or country of origin. I don't suppose they do anywhere, but they bloody well should and more power to the elbow of people like Clive Stafford-Smith and Amnesty International who try to make it a reality.
 Back in the early seventies I had a mate called Jim whose father was a full blood Apache, he was quite into kicking all the immigrants out of California.


----------



## Edgewise (May 5, 2010)

Olly Buckle said:


> Back in the early seventies I had a mate called Jim whose father was a full blood Apache, he was quite into kicking all the immigrants out of California.


 
Which would leave...who?


----------



## Linton Robinson (May 5, 2010)

> Which would leave...who?



Ishi


----------



## Linton Robinson (May 5, 2010)

> Well, they ought to have all the rights extendedd to people in the United Nations declaration of human rights,


Is one of them a right to break the law with impunity?  I haven't read the UN's (rather pretentious, wouldn't you say?) declaration of rights (in my experience anything like that out of the UN would be about seven feet of single-spaced pages) but I just have a feeling it doesn't say you have the right to enter a foreign country without permission or visa, and to work there without papers or tax ID  and nobody has the right to stop you and ask you to identify yourself.

That's what all this hoopla is about.  Stopping somebody and asking them to identify themselves.   Like you're in a building or property and don't look like you belong there, and a guy walks over and asks you to state your business and identify yourself as having a right to be there.

Expatriates and people who spend a lot of time in other countries tend to have an awareness that many Americans lack of the situation of being in foreign countries.  And what it takes, and what degree of rights you have there as a foreigner.

The United States is VASTLY more lax in such matters than anywhere else I've ever heard of.  

You should see how they treat wetbacks in Mexico.   Not pretty.


----------



## NaClmine (May 5, 2010)

lin said:


> Ishi



LMAO . . . wonder how many people don't know who Ishi is.


----------



## NathanBrazil (May 5, 2010)

From Wikipedia (insert disclaimer here)-



> *Ishi* (ca. 1860 – March 25, 1916) was the pseudonym of the last member of the Yahi, in turn the last surviving group of the Yana people of California.  _Ishi_ means "man" in Yana, which was the name Alfred Kroeber gave him when he discovered Ishi had never been given a name. When asked his actual name, he said: "I have none, because there were no people to name me," meaning that no tribal ceremony had been performed.


 
ADD: Not for you salty.


----------



## moderan (May 5, 2010)

NaClmine said:


> LMAO . . . wonder how many people don't know who  Ishi is.


One would assume most people don't. It'd be my guess that the name Yahi would be regarded as a shortened and misspelled form of mahi mahi.
Please feel free to google, people.


----------



## Teve Torbes (May 8, 2010)

Writ-with-Hand said:


> I worked on one of his condos he built on the East side. I remember walking past a number of the white construction workers and they were speaking a distinctly sounding Eastern European language. It's just one of those things that sticks in my memory.


 
Wouldn't be surprised if they were actually Uzbeks.


----------



## Teve Torbes (May 8, 2010)

All I can say is that what's going on in Arizona is a sign of America's decline.  How different is this really than when allied Germanic tribes were settled within the Empire by the Romans?  It's a gradual process, but any student of history can see where this is inevitably heading.  I suppose eventually this will lead to a race/civil war.


----------



## AA (May 8, 2010)

Hahahahahaha. Oh yes, the race war is coming.....nope, it isn't.


----------



## Teve Torbes (May 13, 2010)

Actually, it is a definite possibility.  Both Hispanics and Blacks are much more ethno-nationalistic than whites are.  Both groups can openly talk about creating and maintaining cultures and social/political organizations that are racial homogeneous.  When this is allowed to occur, there is a greater chance of racial conflict.  Added to this the fact that both Hispanics and Blacks have a significant proportion of their populations that are affiliated with criminal/gang organizations, means that these populations can be quite easily equipped with weapons and ammunition.  So really a race war is a distinct possibility.


----------



## moderan (May 13, 2010)

Have you been listening to the White Album again? Sheesh.


----------



## Teve Torbes (May 13, 2010)

I just pay attention to the news and have a realistic perspective on possible outcomes of current events.  I guess it comes from having been a history major.  After a while you come to realize that there are definite patterns and one learns to recognize when certain kinds of factors and events emerge/occur where they all could lead toward.


----------



## Linton Robinson (May 13, 2010)

> have a realistic perspective on possible outcomes



Not really.

I'd LOVE to hear all about how you recognize patterns you've seen before that led to race wars,  except that... no, I really wouldn't.


----------



## alanmt (May 13, 2010)

H. G. Wells was wrong about humanity and industrialism in _The Time Machine_, in the same way that Karl Marx was wrong about humanity and capitalism in _The Communist Manifesto_.  Humanity has a way of tricking even the brilliant observer of the contemporaneous problem.

I don't foresee race wars in the United States in the near future arising out of demographic changes.


----------



## moderan (May 13, 2010)

People are funny that way.


----------



## NaClmine (May 13, 2010)

Race wars are definately coming...NASCAR fans hate IROC and vice versa. Bloodshed is inevitage between these "races"!

Personally, I don't give a hoot if a race war does, or does not, happen. I'm far more afraid of alimony and shared custody of my Dachshunds.


----------



## Teve Torbes (May 13, 2010)

lin said:


> Not really.
> 
> I'd LOVE to hear all about how you recognize patterns you've seen before that led to race wars,  except that... no, I really wouldn't.


 
Of course you wouldn't.  I never expected somebody like you to want to know the truth.

Large foreign populations or groups of people with ethno-nationalistic designs always are a potential threat to the stability of a nation.


----------



## moderan (May 13, 2010)

Hmm. So it isn't jihad any more, it's incipient race war. Or is it? Teve, seriously. You're getting to be like the guy on the corner with the sandwich board. I'm sure that he feels like he's a member of the elite also.
Perhaps you might consider another mode of discourse?


----------



## Linton Robinson (May 13, 2010)

> Of course you wouldn't.  I never expected somebody like you to want to know the truth.
> 
> Large foreign populations or groups of people with ethno-nationalistic designs always are a potential threat to the stability of a nation.



Ah.  I see by your outfit that you are a nutjob.  Congratulations.  That'll be all, thanks.


----------



## JosephB (May 13, 2010)

I was going to join in, but it seems I've misplaced my copy of the Turner Diaries.


----------



## moderan (May 13, 2010)

Aw, Joe. You know they're online...I'm still wondering if T T=T-T
Tell me something true, Teve?


----------



## JosephB (May 13, 2010)

Oh, thanks. I know what my evening looks like.


----------



## moderan (May 13, 2010)

*cues ever-present laugh track*


----------



## Teve Torbes (May 13, 2010)

lin said:


> Ah.  I see by your outfit that you are a nutjob.  Congratulations.  That'll be all, thanks.


 
Nutjob?  Wow.  I'm so hurt.


----------



## Teve Torbes (May 13, 2010)

JosephB said:


> I was going to join in, but it seems I've misplaced my copy of the Turner Diaries.



Oh, geez, do you really have a copy?  I don't.  Here I thought you were more inclined to reading something like _The Autobiography of Malcolm X_ or, say, perhaps _Pornography—Men Possessing Women._


----------



## Teve Torbes (May 13, 2010)

moderan said:


> Hmm. So it isn't jihad any more, it's incipient race war. Or is it? Teve, seriously. *You're getting to be like the guy on the corner with the sandwich board.* I'm sure that he feels like he's a member of the elite also.
> Perhaps you might consider another mode of discourse?


 
I think that you need to start facing the fact that you're never going to get published.  I know it's a difficult thing to accept for wannabe writers, it being realistic and all.  But I suppose you should here it from somebody, and why not me?  After all, none of the other wannabes here are going to tell you that you suck.


----------



## Sigg (May 13, 2010)




----------



## Patrick (May 13, 2010)

Teve Torbes said:


> I think that you need to start facing the fact that you're never going to get published.  I know it's a difficult thing to accept for wannabe writers, it being realistic and all.  But I suppose you should here it from somebody, and why not me?  After all, none of the other wannabes here are going to tell you that you suck.



How unbecoming of you.


----------



## moderan (May 13, 2010)

lin said:


> Is one of them a right to break the law with impunity?  I haven't read the UN's (rather pretentious, wouldn't you say?) declaration of rights (in my experience anything like that out of the UN would be about seven feet of single-spaced pages) but I just have a feeling it doesn't say you have the right to enter a foreign country without permission or visa, and to work there without papers or tax ID  and nobody has the right to stop you and ask you to identify yourself.
> 
> That's what all this hoopla is about.  Stopping somebody and asking them to identify themselves.   Like you're in a building or property and don't look like you belong there, and a guy walks over and asks you to state your business and identify yourself as having a right to be there.
> 
> ...


But that kind of experience with other countries isn't common, and the bulk of the herd don't notice unless they're confronted with something. The closest most people get to an understanding of the situation is watching Midnight Express or railing against the people that captured Laura Ling, without really internalizing the reasons for those events.
It's both a tribute to and a detriment to the US that the common man feels safe enough that such things don't enter into consideration. It's great that our borders feel that secure (though I have to tell that it looks a little different from Tucson than it did from Rochester, about the same distance from the border of a foreign country), but very sad that so little of an understanding of the international community is taught and/or remembered.


----------



## Linton Robinson (May 13, 2010)

All you have to do is get into a little trouble in another country and watch it blow way out of proportion if you're not a citizen.

For that matter, you can see how nasty things can get in a simple bar argument.  Suddenly you're the outsider and everybody is against you.

I once saw the entire foreign community in a city almost immobilized because nobody would see them gasoline and if they showed up in a bar they'd be in a fight against everybody in the bar in two minutes.

Why?  Because the United States defeated Mexico in the FIFA cup prelims.

You get used to living in a situation where you don't really have the same rights as the people who belong there.   In the States you have some legal protection. Most countries, almost none.


----------



## moderan (May 13, 2010)

*nods* I've been in that situation on the other side...In Montreal, when the Kings were in the finals against Les Habitantes. I was clapped in irons and a group of us were sequestered _for our own protection_.
This even though we were loudly rooting for Montreal. We escaped hefty fines only because my passport proved that I have dual citizenship and my conversation with a jailer (in French) proved that I knew my hockey.


----------



## Linton Robinson (May 13, 2010)

LOL
Do you remember the Donnesbury book,  "Just A French Major From The Bronx"?


----------



## moderan (May 13, 2010)

I do. I have it here somewhere, along with "But the Pension Fund Was Just Sitting There..."
The great thing is, we're talking about _friendly_ foreign powers...


----------



## Linton Robinson (May 13, 2010)

Friendly fire is the unkindest cut of all.

Thing is, Mexicans don't consider the US a friendly country.   The overwhelming image of the "migra" there is a goon squad of slavering bullies with dripping fangs.  

Ironically, they get treated much better than by Mexican cops.  (Immigration to the US without papers, many don't realize, is ILLEGAL IN MEXICO.  And if "pollos" get caught by cops they get robbed and/or raped, then sold to traffickers)
And once in custody many get better food and medical care than they have in their entire lives.  
The MCC in San Diego (The "Metropolitan Correction Center" where illegals are housed prior to deport) is known as the "Mexican Country Club".


----------



## moderan (May 13, 2010)

lin said:


> Friendly fire is the unkindest cut of all.
> 
> Thing is, Mexicans don't consider the US a friendly country.   The overwhelming image of the "migra" there is a goon squad of slavering bullies with dripping fangs.
> 
> ...



And they're probably not far wrong about "La Migra".
Americans regard Mexico as a friendly country, or did until the drug wars got more local pub. Now it's all "I'll get shot, then drawn and quartered, boiled in oil, and served as gringo asada". Which is really no more correct than the previous opinion. Misconception being the rule, it's no surprise that miscommunications result.
I see it here during the winter when the bluehaired snowbird makes its annual migration.


----------



## KangTheMad (May 14, 2010)

Well, lets put it this way. Where are illegal immigrants more likely to come from in Arizona. Canada, or Mexico? Jeez, that guy looks mexican, has a mexican accent, speaks spanish better than english...Wow! I wonder what his ethnicity is!!!

So Jose sneaks across the border and works as an illegal immigrant at McDonalds. He is breaking the law. He gets caught. People start yelling "RACISM!", so he is let go bvack into America. Where he is still breaking the law.

Makes sense, eh?


----------



## Linton Robinson (May 14, 2010)

Of course.  That's the BS about the whole racism thing.    It's one of those "victim says she was raped by a black male.  To avoid profiling be on the look out for possible rapists of all races and sexes"  things.

(Another question might be,  "Since when is 'Mexican' a race?")

You see MORE crap on this issue:

"They aren't coming here to take jobs, they're coming to build America."

"Just because they didn't get legal papers doesn't mean they're "illegals".

"The border fence is just like the Berlin Wall"

"The immigration policy is 'broken'."


----------



## JosephB (May 14, 2010)

I get frustrated  when I think about waiting four hours in the emergency room because the place is  jammed with illegal immigrants. Never mind how providing of free health care  impacts the cost.

I get frustrated,  because despite paying exorbitant property taxes, I can't send my children to  the local elementary school because it's so over-crowded and everything is  geared down to accommodate illegal immigrants.

But you'd better not  talk about it in certain company. The topic came up in conversation at a church  function -- a very liberal crowd. The parking is is full of old Volvo station  wagons with Obama and Greenpeace stickers on them. When I voiced my concerns, it  was, "Where's the love brother," and "WWJD?" 

Funny thing is, we  drive some distance to attend this church, and none of them live in an area  where there are a lot of illegal's, like we do. So they don't see the impact, at  least not in ways that are obvious to them.

So I appreciate the  frustration of the people in Arizona. The people screaming about this mostly  don't have to deal with many of the problems caused by illegal immigration. And  unfortunately, you can still get a lot of political traction by calling people  racist. As, I've said, I have sympathy for the illegal aliens as humans beings  simply making an effort to improve their condition. But, enough is  enough.

And the whole thing  about "they do the jobs no one else wants to do" is BS. Because,  _somehow_ all that stuff got done before the illegals (or undocumented  workers - ha ha) arrived. They simply are willng to work for less, and people  are willing to hire them over someone else to save money.


----------



## Sigg (May 14, 2010)

Just to give a more positive story, since they are seldom told on this topic... I have a buddy I met in college who's family had been living here illegally for like 14-15 years.  Both of his parents worked full time, my friend worked and went to university (apparently you don't even need to be a citizen to get into the University of California...).  Around our 3rd or 4th year in college his family finally got their citizenship.  He graduated the same time as me and now works at Cisco making a good living.

One thing I didn't really understand though and maybe someone can shed some light... he said that his parents still paid taxes somehow?  I don't see how that's possible without a social security #.  Since they weren't legal I assumed they got paid under the table at their jobs, but my buddy said that there was a way to pay their taxes...

That's really always been my only gripe against illegal immigrants, they live here and benefit from it but don't pay taxes.  It just feels like they are taking advantage of the people who _are_ paying their taxes.  Anyway, ya'll can go back to bashing illegal mexicans or whatever it is you were doing, carry on.


----------



## Linton Robinson (May 14, 2010)

If you think about it, what happens is that your employer witholds taxes, then you apply to get them back with your SSN.   So a certain amount of taxation just happens.

It's also common for illegals to use fake SSN numbers.  There used to be a wallet sold in Sears that had a dummy SSN card in it along with the dummy girls picture and drivers licence and stuff.   The number on that card was used for thousands and thousands of work accounts.

But obviously illegals paid cash under the table, like the "day labor" guys waiting on a certain parking lot for trucks to come by and paid cash at the end of the day don't pay any tax at all.

I know a really nice kid whose family has been illegals for generations.  He wants to go to community college learn to be a chef.  But can't because he's got no paperwork.  His sister could have had a soccer scholarship at Arizona or San Diego State, but couldn't take it.   It's a drag and everybody who knows him is trying to figure out a way to help him out.

But one day we were talking about it and one of his buddies from the barrio said, "That's really fucked-up they won't let you go to college."   And Joel said,  "Well, they let me go all the way through high school for free."


----------



## Sigg (May 14, 2010)

It's not just the day labor people who get paid in cash under the table, it happens in more well paying places too.  The buddy I mentioned, his dad is a full time manager at a deli.  Also, when I worked at Togo's (a sandwich shop for those that don't know), the illegal mexicans (about half the staff) got paid twice as much as me, in cash, under the table.  I'm not complaining that they got paid more than me cus they were older, more experienced and worked their asses off.  But I'm just sayin', it's not just the 5 buck an hour migrant workers who don't pay taxes.

When you live in a place like California or Arizona or anything close to the border, you get a different perspective on the whole issue.  "Illegals" are no longer a vague notion of law-breaking freeloaders.  Once you become friends with illegal immigrants and you realize they are just like everyone else, the argument of "box em up and ship em back to mexico" becomes absurd and a little insulting.



> I know a really nice kid whose family has been illegals for generations. He wants to go to community college learn to be a chef. But can't because he's got no paperwork. His sister could have had a soccer scholarship at Arizona or San Diego State, but couldn't take it. It's a drag and everybody who knows him is trying to figure out a way to help him out.


 
I guess my buddy must have had a fake SS#?  I mean it wasn't community college, it was a state university...


----------



## JosephB (May 14, 2010)

OK, but what do you say about the 70% of the people of Arizona, including many legal Hispanics, who say they are for this legislation? Just who are the people with the differing perspectives?


----------



## Sigg (May 14, 2010)

Ok, let me revise my statement.  Living in a place close to the border gives you the _opportunity_ to not be ignorant, but not everyone takes the opportunity.

There _are_ downsides to the current system, which is why people will support new legislation that promises to change the system.  But I think this issue is far too complicated for me to try and sum it up in a few short sentences.


----------



## JosephB (May 14, 2010)

Oh, I see. They're all ignorant. Never mind then.


----------



## Linton Robinson (May 14, 2010)

First generation legal immigrants tend to be against illegal entry.  Except for family and friends.  But they kind of like the "they waited in line, you wait in line" policy.

Third generations immigrants tend to get all nationalistic and blow the horn for their "heritage" (even though they don't always speak the language).  The guy who loses his job to an illegal is most likely to be a legal immigrant.

But the SPOKESMEN for such groups are always loud and aggressive about it.  They're melding power and position out of such controversies.  And don't necessarily reflect the real feelings of the people.

I saw this demonstrated really clearly in the primary schools in San Diego.  Kids being taught in Spanish (even spelling and grammar), often by teaching assistants who couldn't speak English.   
The Latino congressmen and the usual professional minority warlords were all about, "preserve the heritage, hire non-English speakers".
The parents were all about, "We want our kids to learn English and not be second class citizens all their lives."


----------



## moderan (May 14, 2010)

Yes. This is the elephant in the room...50% of the illegal Mexican immigrants in the country come through Arizona. That's according to the data compiled by the state when deciding whether to even propose the original bill.
Get some real data:
http://www.local2544.org/
http://www.theamericanresistance.com/ref/letter_mccain_2004feb10.htmlLetter by John McCain
Social Contract


----------



## Sigg (May 14, 2010)

JosephB said:


> Oh, I see. They're all ignorant. Never mind then.


 
Um yeah, if you don't know about something, then you are ignorant. It's not a bad thing... I'm not insulting anyone, but if you haven't had an experience then you are ignorant to the point of view that experience would afford you.

EDIT : maybe I'm using the term ignorant too loosely, in this case I meant it to be uninformed on a particular subject or experience.


----------



## moderan (May 14, 2010)

JosephB said:


> OK, but what do you say about the 70% of the people of Arizona, including many legal Hispanics, who say they are for this legislation? Just who are the people with the differing perspectives?


 Generally they're people with a personal ax to grind, it seems. This drama plays on the news every goddamn night.


----------



## Sigg (May 14, 2010)

moderan said:


> Yes. This is the elephant in the room...50% of the illegal Mexican immigrants in the country come through Arizona. That's according to the data compiled by the state when deciding whether to even propose the original bill.
> Get some real data:
> http://www.local2544.org/
> http://www.theamericanresistance.com/ref/letter_mccain_2004feb10.htmlLetter by John McCain
> Social Contract



I always wondered how they come up with data like that... if they knew where all the illegals were and where they came from, wouldn't they be able to stop it?


----------



## moderan (May 14, 2010)

More illegals than people available to stop them. The Sonoran Desert is HUGE.


----------



## Sigg (May 14, 2010)

moderan said:


> More illegals than people available to stop them. The Sonoran Desert is HUGE.


 
Yeah I understand that but how do they know... just estimate trends and such? It's also like when they say there are 15 million illegal immigrants in california, how do they know? I suppose they are just guesstimates anyhow.

I think another issue with illegal immigrants is accountability, as it relates to law enforcement, but since I've never had to deal with that personally I don't know much about it.

On the flip side, it would be a pretty stressful life to be a 2nd generation illegal immigrant. Having to live in fear of getting deported "back" to a country that you've never even been to in the first place. At least the 1st generation remember what they were running from and why they don't want to go back.

EDIT : or do you get citizenship if you are born here if it is to 2 illegal immigrants?  Then what would happen to the kid if the parents are deported?


----------



## Linton Robinson (May 14, 2010)

If you're born here, you're a citizen.  Flat-out.    If the kid is a citizen, the mother can't be deported.   This leads to what is known as "anchor babies".


----------



## JosephB (May 14, 2010)

Atlanta is the last stop for many, many of illegals. Not really sure why. My area especially has a very high concentration of them. The thing is, as Moderan said, many are coming in through Arizona. So, I am directly impacted by this. I find it hard to believe that the people of AZ, who are also impacted, and more so than I am, are all so uninformed. That's the really not the case here.


----------



## Sigg (May 14, 2010)

lin said:


> If you're born here, you're a citizen. Flat-out. If the kid is a citizen, the mother can't be deported. This leads to what is known as "anchor babies".



sounds like it opens a door wide for some shady abuses


----------



## moderan (May 14, 2010)

Anchor babies and second-generation immigrants are the real bitch kitty in this mess...a lot of the people here are related to illegals, and the police don't want to be enforcers of that law because they would have to crack down on family members. So there are a lot of conflicting loyalties.
La Policia don't want to be La Migra...but they'll lose their jobs if they don't. They'll lose family loyalties and ties if they do.


----------



## Sigg (May 14, 2010)

I think that's why a lot of people (at least in california) would support the approach of "Ok, the ones that are here already can stay but let's build a big ass wall to keep more from coming in"  not entirely illogical, but not very practical, as you said the desert is huge.


----------



## moderan (May 14, 2010)

Policies in California and Texas have created a funnel effect...pretty sure that's the consensus from those links I posted, and it's certainly the view of the "man in the street" as I see it playing on the local news every night. New Mexico isn't talking much, and that's another 30% or so of the influx. No doubt the data is guesstimated. I don't know how it's gathered but the figures seem reasonable to me. Maybe a little low.
I can see all of the border states developing similar policies. That wouldn't surprise me a bit.


----------



## Himani (May 14, 2010)

Ugh, don't get me started on all the bull that's going on in AZ right now. As a brown person living here who is neither of Hispanic or Middle Eastern ethnicity, it gets really really REALLY annoying. Not that I'm saying it's deserved if you are those ethnicities, but racial profiling is alive and well. I've been subjected to it, as has my family, and as a born US citizen, I do not appreciate it in the least. I hate the feeling of "you're different from us because you look different" that it creates. I believe in safety for citizens but NOT at the sacrifice of my rights.

Also, as someone who is in the educational field, the overwhelming budget cuts along with the ban on "ethnic classes" makes me wonder what exactly Arizona is trying to say to the world. Sigh.


----------



## moderan (May 14, 2010)

It says "carry your ID at all times" which is to me good advice anyway. Sorry about your difficulties, but it is what it is.


----------



## Himani (May 14, 2010)

No, it says carry paperwork that meet federal requirements to prove your citizenship. They don't count driver's licenses. I don't carry my passport with me everywhere (or my birth certificate!). I don't see why I have to.


----------



## JosephB (May 14, 2010)

My dad's Canadian and carries his green card in his wallet. Is that such an inconvenience?.


----------



## Linton Robinson (May 14, 2010)

So you're being stopped a lot, Hamani?   
And papers demanded.   
So tell them you don't have them and be a test case.


----------



## Himani (May 14, 2010)

Lin, I shouldn't even be STOPPED, that's the point. Why was I stopped? Why did they ask? Because of my skin color. I don't meet the laughable "examples" given of what immigrants look like. Even if they leave me alone once I explain I was born in Chicago (because I don't carry papers with me), the racial profiling has already occurred.

I think there is validity to having your green card on hand (it acts as photo ID in case you don't have a driver's license, for example).


----------



## moderan (May 14, 2010)

So what's the solution?
If you shouldn't even be stopped, then how could the goal be accomplished?


----------



## KangTheMad (May 14, 2010)

Well, its a problem anyhow. I mean, how can you really tell the difference between an illegal and legal immigrant? You can't. America is too scared to be "politically incorrect" to do anything. What Arizona did took balls, which many people lack when it comes to "labeling people".


----------



## Linton Robinson (May 14, 2010)

> Lin, I shouldn't even be STOPPED, that's the point.



I didn't ask if you SHOULD be stopped.  I asked if you had been.  If not...maybe it's not as big a deal as you're making out.

If you have... refuse to show papers.  Become a test case.    I've done it.   You challenge these things by stepping into them, not by whining.


----------



## alanmt (May 14, 2010)

Well, there is evidence that the biggest effect of this new state law is to turn hispanic voters from Republicans to Democrats.  As Michael Gerson noted, in a matter of months, hispanic voters in Arizona have gone from being among the most pro-GOP voter blocs to the most hostile.

This law has some Constitutional problems, and is probably void under federal preemption doctrine.  It is my understanding that it does not allow "walking while hispanic" ID check stops, but only comes into play where there is another lawful reason for police interaction.  Ironically, what this means is that any illegal immigrant who witnesses a crime now has a powerful disincentive to get involved or help the victim.


----------



## moderan (May 14, 2010)

You mean, _another powerful disincentive_. Being an illegal immigrant is a powerful disincentive too. I don't have any data, but I'd guess that there isn't or hasn't been a lot of involvement by those worthies in the first place.
Unconstitutionality is a powerful argument, and one that is brought up on the nightly news drama. There are problems all around, but the idea is that the state of Arizona would like not to be an entry point for illegal immigrants. I think that's valid on the face of it, and I've yet to see realistic solutions on how to accomplish that goal short of some sort of profiling. A wall isn't going to work economically or in terms of manpower. There's just too much mileage to consider.
And the Sonoran Desert is mighty inhospitable territory. During the summer, the temperature averages 104 fahrenheit.


----------

