# The Role of Artist in Society



## David Gordon Burke (Sep 26, 2013)

"Man the poets down here don't write nothin' at all/They just stand back and let it all be."
Bruce Springsteen / Jungleland

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." 
Mark Twain

By _Artist _in the title of this thread I refer to anyone at all that creates. Writers, Poets, Musicians, Actors, Directors,  Producers, Sculptors, Architects etc.  

My question is what people's precieved notion is as to the obligation (if any) that an artist has to his society or the world as a whole.
My example would be simple - Let's talk about a very famous song by the Heavy Metal group Scorpions (they are still out there somewhere on eternal tour)  The song is called "Winds of Change" and has to do with the downfall of the Iron Curtain and Communism in Europe.  Scorpions and hundreds of other groups in the years leading up to the end of the cold war used their songs as a catalyst for change - they sprinkled "freedom" imagery throughout their songs and are credited with helping bring about the changes that followed.

Compare that to the kind of music that has been produced in Latin America in the last few decades.  With very few exceptions, the vast majority is mindless twaddle or worse.  In Mexico and parts of the Southern US, the Narco-corrido, songs that glorify and immortalize the drug king pins of the cartels, are still popular.  Although banned on Mexican radio, many young criminals with no hope for a better life dream of having their names or nicname mentioned in one of these songs.

Worldwide, regardless of the medium, the trend has been away from art for art's sake and a massive selling out in order to make a buck.  

In my work I try to work in themes and topics that I feel strongly about.  My characters carry my voice.  (albiet a more black and white reporter version of myself)  

This could be more or less difficult depending on the genre one is working with but it has been done again and again in Metaphor and Allegory in all mediums and all genres.  Zombies have been used as metaphors for/against nuclear power and radiation / consumerism / AIDS / Cancer and other ideas.

Star Trek is well known for a thinly veiled message.  My favorite is the episode from the original series with the race of folk whose faces are black on one side and white on the other.  Their people are racist against another race whose coloring is the same but with the colors inverted.

So here is yet another way to add depth along with theme and motif.  

Any comments?

David Gordon Burke


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## Tettsuo (Sep 26, 2013)

I believe it is the job of the artist to share a part of themselves with the world.

All art is a reflection of the artist.  You can be an artist who addresses the failings of society, or an artist who brings laughter to the hearts and minds of the viewers, but never rocking the boat.  You can be an artist who shows the world the horrors they've endured, or an artist who expresses the love in all mankind.

For me, the key to being an artist, is the honest expression of oneself.

Miley Cyrus isn't an artist, she's a exhibitionist.  Her sole goal is to make money by shocking people.  As much as people complained about Madonna in the 80's and 90's, she's an artist in my book because her work appears to be honest expression of who she is.


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## David Gordon Burke (Sep 26, 2013)

I was with you up to this part.....


Tettsuo said:


> .......but never rocking the boat.
> 
> For me, the key to being an artist, is the honest expression of oneself.



Isn't being honest rocking the boat when the boat needs to be rocked?  Isn't taking the "Group Politic" into mind, worrying about whether you will be liked or hated when you tell the truth as you believe it and hence the possibility that you WON'T tell the truth if you fear being ostracized, just another form of dishonesty? 

As for Miley and Madonna - Where Miley is an exhibitionist (100% agreed) worse, she is just another conformist in a long line of conformists.  Wouldn't it have been so much sexier for her to have been half naked, standing behind a calf with a banner that read "Meat is Murder" or whatever her pet cause might be?   Madonna may or may not be genuine but what is her contribution (positive that is) What does she stand for?  Granted I don't listen to her music and aside from some skanky stuff from her early days and telling young girls to get a guy with bucks so they can be material girls, I don't know the message, if any, behind her music.  

Actually, Pop music as a whole along with the vast majority of Pop culture isn't too deep.  Very little message there.  This is one of the reasons I love the world of fiction - there is all kinds of room to talk about all kinds of topics.  Social and otherwise.  

David Gordon Burke
PS.  Not a vegetarian.   Love my steaks.


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## Tettsuo (Sep 26, 2013)

David Gordon Burke said:


> I was with you up to this part.....
> 
> 
> Isn't being honest rocking the boat when the boat needs to be rocked?  Isn't taking the "Group Politic" into mind, worrying about whether you will be liked or hated when you tell the truth as you believe it and hence the possibility that you WON'T tell the truth if you fear being ostracized, just another form of dishonesty?


Key part - when the boat needs to be rocked.  If the artist doesn't believe the boat needs to be rocked, then why would they rock the boat?



> As for Miley and Madonna - Where Miley is an exhibitionist (100% agreed) worse, she is just another conformist in a long line of conformists.  Wouldn't it have been so much sexier for her to have been half naked, standing behind a calf with a banner that read "Meat is Murder" or whatever her pet cause might be?   Madonna may or may not be genuine but what is her contribution (positive that is) What does she stand for?  Granted I don't listen to her music and aside from some skanky stuff from her early days and telling young girls to get a guy with bucks so they can be material girls, I don't know the message, if any, behind her music.
> 
> Actually, Pop music as a whole along with the vast majority of Pop culture isn't too deep.  Very little message there.  This is one of the reasons I love the world of fiction - there is all kinds of room to talk about all kinds of topics.  Social and otherwise.
> 
> ...


I'm certainly not going to defend pop music, but I was only using it as an example.  As for Madonna, if that's what she believed at the time... doesn't that make it a true expression of who she is?  All messages don't have to be uplifting do they?

Do you believe one can only be an artist if they represent a particularly meaning thing, way of thought/life or grandiose ideal?  Can't an artist simply be a person that tells wonderful children's stories?


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## escorial (Sep 26, 2013)

When I think of Bono...I'm not thinking yeah man!!!!...went to see U2 a few years back at Main Road..and I did think..just sing man and cut out the save the world stuff.


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## David Gordon Burke (Sep 26, 2013)

Good points.  I was mostly looking to see your insight on that.  As for not rocking the boat if the boat doesn't need to be rocked - good point.  Seems there are a lot of boats that need to be rocked these days though.  
(aside - the idiomatic expression "tilting at windmills" which means about the same thing, comes from the book "Don Quijote")  

Art for the sake of creating something beautiful that may or may not have much meaning?  Yeah, I can get behind that, no problem.  
By the same token, would Bob Marley still be Bob Marley if you took the politics out of it?  Would it have the same presence?  I doubt it.  

Returning to the topic of Latin / Mexican music, the prevalent themes there are Love and what they call dislove - in other words "You used to love me and now I'm furious that it's over"  that's about it.  No social or political themes, no self discovery themes, nothing but Boy meats Girl, Boy loses Girl blather.  An hour of that and my nerves are completely on edge.  Insipid tripe.  

So grandiose might not be absolutely necessary but I can't imagine a career of 20 albumns or 40 novels etc. without touching on something deep.
Right now I am re-reading "The Stand" by Stephen King - Looking at it from the perspective of a writer - it's interesting to see how many topics superfluous to the main story he weaves into the narrative.  

In closing, most all the books I read as a kid had some kind of message in there somewhere (with the exception of Dr. Suess maybe)

David Gordon Burke


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## Bloggsworth (Sep 26, 2013)

The artist should have no roll in society, the real artist just is, and should be an irrelevance as far as "Society" is concerned. When artists become relevant to society they cease to operate independently of the mores of society and become part of the general media and will therefore tailor their output for the media... We see this from the effects the Saatchis of the art world have upon the artists themselves, how Hirst churns out artworks designed to sell for humungous amounts of money, these expensive productions (I refuse to call them valuable, their true artistic worth will be decided in about 100 years time) find homes with the glitterati who befriend the critics, invite them to champagne receptions, and, unsurprisingly, these critics then find nice things to say about the latest purchase glowing in the corner of an East London warehouse where they will remain until such time as they can be sold without too onerous a tax burden...


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## David Gordon Burke (Sep 26, 2013)

escorial said:


> When I think of Bono...I'm not thinking yeah man!!!!...went to see U2 a few years back at Main Road..and I did think..just sing man and cut out the save the world stuff.



I can see that,  easily, especially where Bono is concerned.  There is a big difference between writing a song about some social problem as compared with standing on a soapbox at a concert and preaching about that problem.  Never liked U2.  Saw them once in their early days, wasn't impressed.  

David Gordon Burke


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## Morkonan (Sep 26, 2013)

David Gordon Burke said:


> ...
> 
> Any comments?



Writers are the conscience of culture.

(You can substitute "Artists" if you wish, but there are a lot of people out there calling themselves "Artists" that don't fit within our classical understanding of the term.)


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## ppsage (Sep 26, 2013)

I don’t think there are any social obligations attached specifically to being an artist. One may have acquired such obligations if one is, for instance, a giant pop artist, but they derive from the fame and influence and wealth and leadership etc. The same as perhaps if one is a politician or a news-caster, of equal success and stature. One may after all, practice art for strictly personal reasons, perhaps it’s one’s method of communication with one’s god, and this art may never become public or even shared. Here I think one incurs no special obligation, for that practice, beyond those ordinary to any citizen. I’d say social obligation attaches to social role, which the mere fact of doing art doesn’t necessarily imply, although it may be at least partly the occasion of one’s social evolution into a changed role with other obligations.


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## Myers (Sep 26, 2013)

I consider art and artists individually, not as a whole. Maybe the art has some larger purpose or an impact on society, maybe it doesn't. Artists are motivated by different things, and people see art differently. There is no single role, and I don't see that there's much point in trying to define one.


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## FleshEater (Sep 27, 2013)

I don't believe an artist has any obligation to anyone but him or herself. The minute there's an obligation, the art is no longer as personal because something's expected of them. 

As for meaning in works of art. Everyone's different. All of your examples stretch over different time periods, and places, and these factors are what determine the depth of the work. 

I live in Podunk PA (as a southern boy we work with would say). There is no great conflict here, no political upheaval, no surge of rebellion. My towns average age ranges from 50-80. Yeah, I can watch the news, experience the world and it's problems that way, but I'm not living life with those issues, so I'm not going to write about them. I write what I know, but more precisely what I love, and that's horror. You can toss me on the entertainer side of the spectrum.


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## The Tourist (Sep 27, 2013)

I believe the true value of an artist in our present society is that of being "the go to guy."  Let me explain.

You're stranded at sea, seven souls in a six man life-raft.  An island is sighted, appearing to have enough resources to provide survival.  The artist is key here.  You toss him overboard because he has no real skills other than documenting landfall with interpretive dance.

You child goes to a cushy-shushy prestigious school system with a real shot at getting to Harvard.  Despite having a winning football season and respectable alumni donations, the school is struggling financially on big ticket improvements.  Fire the art teacher.

You're sitting in dangerous (yet rocking) biker bar.  Great music, nice looking ladies, ample parking for your bikes in front of a huge front window to keep an eye on them.  The bouncer is a buddy, the drinks are killer and life couldn't be better.  Suddenly, right in the middle of the jukebox playing "Beer For My Horses," the zombie apocalypse breaks out!  You need a diversion if you're ever going to chat up the redhead on the barstool next to you.  Fortunately, within the saloon a poetry professor is sipping on a brewski.  He's smart.  Tossing him to the horde will give you hours with the babe while the undead feast on that huge cerebellum.

We need these guys...


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## David Gordon Burke (Sep 27, 2013)

Morkonan said:


> Writers are the conscience of culture.



I like that.  Particularly in a culture / society in which a great part of it is without conscience.  Returning to the Madonna, Miley theme - it seems to me that it takes a particular type of person to "Tramp around" in front of the camera, knowing that a lot of easily influenced youth are going to see it, and to not care about that influence on society.  Same could be said for gangster rappers (and those Mexican Drug gang balads) that glorify crime and violence.

What I'm getting at it .... assuming that a writer is going to write 10 or more novels in their lifetime, invent maybe 10 characters per book ... what do these people talk about.  I just wrote a scene where the police are on a stakeout ... I dedicated two paragraphs to a bit (semi-comedy) where they are making fun of one cop for his predilection for strippers.  It's not central to the plot but it set up the next scene.  Sometimes you have to get away from the plot a bit.

So you could have them talking about anything.  Take that first scene in the first episode of Walking Dead where Rick and Shane are sitting in their squad car having a conversation about women who don't turn off the lights in the house.  

Another fun thing you can do if you are writing something based on reality is rip / comment on real life people.  Or if it's a sci-fi thing and you have a bunch of major corporations bilking their customers for billions - people will make a parallel to real society.  I took apart a few Mexican politicians in my latest WIP and it was a most satisfying feeling (careful of defamation suits here ... on the other hand if your book reaches enough people that a defamation suit came about due to something you wrote and they sued you - instant interest in your book ... there is no bad publicity ... even still, I kept it real)

It seems to me that as well as theme, believable characters, correct grammar etc. etc. all the things talked about on the site daily, our characters need to care about something or talk about themes that are important to them, even if it is just inflation at the local supermarket.  What if you character is unemployed?  Why?  Did his company downsize and send their manufacturing work to Taiwan?  Isn't that an issue you could explore outside the scope of the main plot?  As a reader, I'm not believing your story if your character doesn't have any feelings about this.  

It's like the difference between Star Trek and Star Wars.  Trek follows a formula started in classic sci-fi from its earliest incarnation and relies heavily on themes set out by Issaac Asimov - many episodes are alegorical and while they may be talking about some intergalactic war between two races, they are actually commenting on the situation in the Middle East.

Star Wars on the other hand doesn't but is a great vehicle for selling lunch boxes to school kids.  Star Wars may have generated more cash per film, ..... actually that's all I can say ..... they made more money.  Oh, and they gave the world the lasting contribution on Ewoks and Ja Ja Binks.  

David Gordon Burke


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## The Tourist (Sep 27, 2013)

David Gordon Burke said:


> Another fun thing you can do if you are writing something based on reality is rip / comment on real life people.



Which is what I did.  The problem is when to stop commenting, and actually do something.

Some people believe that Herodotus, or someone like him, was actually the first imbedded reporter.  Many of the lines cited in documenting events at Thermopylae are considered quotes made by Spartan hoplites.  If true, this is a valuable insight into those final moments.

But part of me wonders if the poet--whoever he was--would have been more appreciated if he had picked up a dory or a xiphos saved a Spartan's life instead of just the memory of him.


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## Kevin (Sep 27, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> I believe the true value of an artist in our present society is that of being "the go to guy."  Let me explain.
> 
> You're stranded at sea, seven souls in a six man life-raft.  An island is sighted, appearing to have enough resources to provide survival.  The artist is key here.  You toss him overboard because he has no real skills other than documenting landfall with interpretive dance.
> 
> ...


 So...what I take from this is that you should learn how to fish , or you might become the bait....


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## The Tourist (Sep 27, 2013)

Kevin said:


> So...what I take from this is that you should learn how to fish , or you might become the bait....



Clint Smith at "Thunder Ranch" used to have a sign there that read, "If you look like food you will be eaten."

Considering the area where I live, we SRO with aging hippies who have audited classes for three decades, write crappy poetry or waste oil paint by the vat, and tie up every dry-out clinic in the county.  Here, we need fewer artists like yesterday.

Welders, cobblers and plumbers we need.


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## Morkonan (Sep 27, 2013)

David Gordon Burke said:


> ...Star Wars on the other hand doesn't but is a great vehicle for selling lunch boxes to school kids.  Star Wars may have generated more cash per film, ..... actually that's all I can say ..... they made more money.  Oh, and they gave the world the lasting contribution on Ewoks and Ja Ja Binks.



The original three did address classic story issues. For instance, the classically derived Heroic Quest, the Coming of Age story, the eternal struggle between Good and Evil (VERY clearly defined, by the way) and themes like Local Boy Makes Good and Everyone Can Make A Difference as well as a Redemption theme all get wrapped up in the character of Luke and his acceptance of personal responsibility to act, even in the face of overwhelming odds, as well as his own personal growth and the eventual realization of the conflict of Good vs Evil.

These are all broad issues. While not exactly a morality play, the movies draw on ageless themes that never grow old. Ewoks? Any oppressed or exploited people, anywhere, could be "Ewoks" and would be doomed without the intervention of more powerful actors on the world stage. Is Star Wars (I don't speak of those last three, btw...) anything like the old morality plays of Star Trek? Not exactly, but they still have just as strong of a message and on that obviously resonates very strongly with the audience.

Are these accidental? Not exactly. These are just very popular story themes that happen to apply to the human condition in just about any particular time. Conventional themes are always popular and can be found in a great many works of art, no matter the medium. Good stories are like that. But, the broader brush that an artist, any artist, can create with isn't limited to just these popular sorts of themes/tropes. Instead, an artist can choose to address any particular cultural issue and, with sufficient skill, can do so in very powerful ways.

Something that we can't forget, though, is that if the artist does not act as the conscience of culture, then who will? If not "us", then who? Politicians? Public Interest Groups? Charities? How many of them will be able to have the same impact, no matter the time, as one excellently executed piece of art that successfully communicates its message across a long period of time.


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## Kevin (Sep 27, 2013)

> It's like the difference between Star Trek and Star Wars.  Trek follows a formula started in classic sci-fi from its earliest incarnation and relies heavily on themes set out by Issaac Asimov - many episodes are alegorical and while they may be talking about some intergalactic war between two races, they are actually commenting on the situation in the Middle East.
> 
> Star Wars on the other hand doesn't but is a great vehicle for selling lunch boxes to school kids.  Star Wars may have generated more cash per film, ..... actually that's all I can say ..... they made more money.  Oh, and they gave the world the lasting contribution on Ewoks and Ja Ja Binks.
> 
> David Gordon Burke


 Uh...Star Wars was based on a formula - _Flash Gordon- _I think that was pre-Asimov (1930s?)  Homage...You're probably not old enough to remember the old serials, but for a time, they were very popular. And as far as generating more cash per film...the latest Trek films are attempting to do just that. They got a lot of zip! and pow!, and cool!, and eye candy (ol' 7 of 9 not withstanding) There's a lot 'nerd-core' to overcome there... 

p.s. - Google: jar-jar returns. He's pretty good in that.


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## Morkonan (Sep 28, 2013)

Kevin said:


> Uh...Star Wars was based on a formula - _Flash Gordon- _I think that was pre-Asimov (1930s?)  Homage...



Try Campbell's Heroic Journey: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth


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## escorial (Sep 28, 2013)

the artist I like bring me enjoyment and admiration..an I like it when someone else likes them.


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