# Becoming good at writing by NOT writing.



## ViKtoricus (Oct 23, 2013)

Hello all. I'd like to say hi to all those who are familiar or semi-familiar with what I am all about. I am a student in the art of writing and I am currently being mentored by John Bushore. I was talking to him through email a while ago and this was his message to me:



_[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Your
biggest problem is switching back and forth between present and past
tense. Your sentences are basically constructed properly, though, and
that's a big plus. [/FONT]_


_[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Like
almost all beginners, you're limiting yourself by writing in first
person and in present tense. First person makes it difficult to
describe your main character (I've critted some authors where I'm not
sure of the gender of the MC for several pages) and limits the
mannerisms that authors use to build character and mood and the like.
After all, if you're writing about yourself, you wouldn't notice your
mannerisms because you use them every day. Also, there's no smooth
way to let the reader know anything the MC doesn't know.[/FONT]_
_[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Present
tense is limiting because there's no way to foreshadow coming events.
And it's also harder to write than past tense. Work on verb tense,
because your writing is choppy as is.[/FONT]_
_[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I'd
suggest you get a book about how to write. A good on is Steven King's
On
Writing.[/FONT]_
_......
__[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]There's
a lot of crafting that goes into good writing, not only word choice,
punctuation and sentence structure, there's characterization,
dialogue and dialogue attribution, scene setting, mood setting,
plotting, building tension. The beginning writer is usually writing
in a vacuum. How can he learn if he does not know what he needs to
learn? Pretty difficult, as I remember it. That's why I bought books
about how to write and joined a writers' group.

......




[/FONT]_[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]He suggested me to read Stephen King's On Writing. It's a really good book. My friend gave me a kindle copy of it. And I have a plan.

I think I am at the stage where I really need to observe things before trying to do things my way. I think I need to observe how it is done before attempting it. After all, I am trying to imitate some great authors who came before me. So right now, I think it would be a great idea if I would actually STOP writing, and start reading. I plan on studying about writing first.

Do you think this is a good idea?[/FONT]


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## Sam (Oct 23, 2013)

You should start reading . . . just not books on how to write. Most of them are contradictory and filled with vague terminology that will leave you with doubt more than anything else. You should read the masters of your chosen genre. It will be a million times a better use of your time.


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## The Tourist (Oct 23, 2013)

I think you depend on the suggestions of others too much.  You want us to pick which story you work on.  You want us to help you define your characters.  Now you want us to pick your career.

The Australian aborigines have a tradition called a "walk about."  A tribesman goes off to another area, or into the outback or just travels trying to find himself.  I think this would be good advice to you.

Why not try painting, or music or interpretive dance?  You seem driven to create, why does it have to be writing?  My advice is to stop asking for advice and go find your passion.  Yes, you'll fail--just like everyone else.


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## ViKtoricus (Oct 23, 2013)

But writing is for me. I just know it.

I get scatter-brained mainly because I desire progress too much.



And Sam, I agree with you. In fact, I was just reading Stephen King's On Writing book and it said to read a lot. I'm sure he was referring to fiction works.


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## The Tourist (Oct 23, 2013)

Do you know how many jobs, hobbies, bike brands, women, types of liquor, board games, houses, trucks, firearms and jackknives I thought were "for me, I just knew it"?

At your age I didn't even know what my favorite color was.


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## FleshEater (Oct 23, 2013)

Reading is EXTREMELY important. But pay attention to what you read, too.

Your mentor's advice is a little...off. Limiting yourself is locking the door on any narrative perspective or tense. First person present tense is only as limiting as the author's ability to wield it.


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## Sintalion (Oct 23, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> Reading is EXTREMELY important. But pay attention to what you read, too.
> 
> Your mentor's advice is a little...off. Limiting yourself is locking the door on any narrative perspective or tense. First person present tense is only as limiting as the author's ability to wield it.



This.


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## Outiboros (Oct 23, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> First person present tense is only as limiting as the author's ability to wield it.


That's true for anything. That's like saying "it could be good, it just depends on the quality."

I wouldn't completely stop writing. Sure, what you write won't be as good as what you write after you've read, but it's still experience. Read, and as you do, try to put what you're learning on paper.


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## escorial (Oct 23, 2013)

[video=youtube_share;fZ2mDHlGH4E]http://youtu.be/fZ2mDHlGH4E[/video].


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## Smith (Oct 23, 2013)

I'm not much better. But still, I don't think the solution would be to stop writing altogether. Heck, not even a little bit. I'd say keep practicing and at the same time to further enhance yourself read. A wide assortment, even in genres you might not particularly like. I mean, to improve my reactions as a goalie for soccer we'd play ping-pong. So trying other things, some of them perhaps new things, never hurts. Challenge yourself.

But yes, definitely read. Not just "Help Me Write" books but novels, short-stories, non-fiction, fiction... you get the memo.


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## Nickleby (Oct 23, 2013)

There is no reason you can't read and write concurrently. There is every reason to keep on writing.

The best way to learn writing is to write. There are other ways, but they pale in comparison. Most likely you will discard the majority of the advice you've picked up before you find your own style.

The longer you put off writing, the more you try to analyze it, the more you train and prepare and study, the longer it will take for you to get where you're going. Life is too short to waste on detours and dead ends.


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## The Tourist (Oct 23, 2013)

Nickleby, how does he/we know that writing isn't a dead end for him?  Just because you want to write or marry Girl A doesn't mean that rug-hooking and Girl B isn't the true path.


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## spartan928 (Oct 23, 2013)

Read what excites you. Write what you feel passionate about. Do both as long as you enjoy them.


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## Smith (Oct 23, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Nickleby, how does he/we know that writing isn't a dead end for him?  Just because you want to write or marry Girl A doesn't mean that rug-hooking and Girl B isn't the true path.



Agreed. He should be certain that writing is the right choice for him before making it an endeavor... if that made any sense. I mean, I suppose you never truly know ahead of time, but at the end of the day it should at least definitely be something he is interested in. A career choice that appeals to him.


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## ViKtoricus (Oct 23, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Do you know how many jobs, hobbies, bike brands, women, types of liquor, board games, houses, trucks, firearms and jackknives I thought were "for me, I just knew it"?At your age I didn't even know what my favorite color was.





lol. At a very early age, I knew what I was born for. I was not even a teenager when I realized that weightlifting is my purpose in life. Writing, on the other hand, is my passion.



Basically, weightlifting is my purpose, writing is my passion, and, well, I don't quite know what my job is yet. I'm still unemployed, but I am on the verge of getting hired as a farmer intern or some guy who works at Goodwill. Don't know yet.

But as far as purpose and passion, I know it deeply.


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## J Anfinson (Oct 23, 2013)

I agree with reading the books of the masters of your chosen genre and studying them. However, there's no reason to quit writing. I feel like I've made quite a bit of progress by studying certain works, and then applying every new thing I learn when I sit down to write something. Sometimes I'll even have a book open beside my laptop and I'll try to write a similar scene to what's in the book, so that I might discover how they achieved a certain effect.

I think it's beneficial to study and practice at the same time.

Oh, and I agree with Sam on one point. How-to books often do contradict one another. I've got a large stack of them that have proven that to me. There is one good thing about some of them, though. If the author admits that their way isn't the only way, and gives examples of other successful ways of doing something, then it's a book worth reading. That's my opinion, anyway.


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## The Tourist (Oct 23, 2013)

J Anfinson said:


> However, there's no reason to quit writing.



If this debate would be in the abstract I'd agree.  I think learning is like any survival skill, you try a number of things, and accept that trials and failure are just part of the human equation.

I get the idea that frustration is setting in for this example.  I don't think anyone is at their best during times like this.  Tomorrow is another day.

And clearly success is not coming.


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## Jeko (Oct 24, 2013)

Never.
Stop.
Writing.

It's like freezing your body in cryostasis and waiting for the world to become a better place. It won't. Get out of that glorified fridge and make it better yourself.

Enrich yourself by both writing and reading. Get into a daily habit if you can; it does wonders for your creativity and craftsmanship.


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## The Tourist (Oct 24, 2013)

Cadence, I think you're sincere here, but this isn't a football game where you tell the star running back to rub some dirt on the hit and get back into the game.  Any pursuit is more like a failing romance, you cut your losses long before the restraining order.

How many jobs did you have before you found a 'career'?  Did you own a Chevy before you decided that Fords were better.  Heck, even I owned a GoldWing.

Many times I believe we look at writing as a calling, a sacred trust betrothed to us.  But even if you're good at something it doesn't mean it's good for you.  The thing that I was best at was killing me with stress.

As an older man I can dabble at things that are simply a waste of time.  I can become a gentleman farmer, an amateur photographer, a novelist.  We are discussing a younger man, who needs an entire committee of teachers, betas, mentors and life coaches--_and then because we love writing_--we are eager to push him into something because of our passions.

Two years before my wife retired I begged her to hang it up, but she was a teacher.  While the job was grinding her up it was always "for the kids."  Finally, in an attempt to get the highest paid teachers to leave the system so they could be replaced with younger cheaper ones, the administrator gave her a handsome retirement package and she left.

You should hear her now, the lilt in her laugh is back.  She's lost weight, she looks younger, she spends her days doing any silly thing she wants.  In the final analysis, hundreds of kids might be getting substandard teachers, but when do you stop "worshipping at the altar of avocation" and ask what's best for the individual?

I don't think this guy's happy being a writer, but he might be ecstatic about laying carpet and hanging wallpaper.


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## Jeko (Oct 24, 2013)

> I don't think this guy's happy being a writer



That's the most useless thing I've ever heard. The only way I got better at writing is by shutting up about my emotions and doing what I should have been doing while I was winging and moaning about the whole thing; writing. 'Happiness' doesn't matter if you want to be a writer. You write whether you're ecstatic about it or feeling downright miserable.

If I took those words to heart, The Tourist, I'd have given up a long time ago.


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## The Tourist (Oct 24, 2013)

Cadence, are you sure your experience is universal?  Look at how many players spend their entire lives in farm teams.  They love the game, they just don't have the skills.

This isn't a race or a lottery.  It's a guy's life.  And I'll be honest here, like many boomers I was pushed by my parents to get a college degree and go into white-collar management.  It was literally the most ignorant, worthless advice I ever got.  I would have been happier making custom cowboy boots.

Let's not make the same mistake here.  My folks projected their dreams and aspirations onto me.  Those dreams were not mine.  You have a love of writing, I have the luxury of being a total literary failure.  I'm not sure that's his circumstance.


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## Morkonan (Oct 24, 2013)

ViKtoricus said:


> ...In fact, I was just reading Stephen King's On Writing book and it said to read a lot. I'm sure he was referring to fiction works.



Well, I don't remember what it was he was referring to, but I'm sure it wasn't just "reading a lot."

If you are going to gain anything by reading the works of others, you have to "read like a writer." That's nothing like reading "like a reader." Sure, you can enjoy a good story, just the same. But, when you're reading like a writer, your goal is to notice how the writer has accomplished certain critical tasks. And, to fully comprehend how they managed them, you must know what they are. You have to know what a protagonist is, an antagonist, a setting, a goal, an obstacle, stakes and need to understand the basics of dialogue, scene, plot, style, structure and a host of other minor contrivances that come together to make "a novel."

So, some will say all you need is a pen and a piece of paper. That might be so. But, in my opinion, most people need to understand the basics, first, before they start heading off into the woods. True, some people may already have an intimate understanding of such concepts without any formal or purposeful training. These are, in general, just very intelligent people who've absorbed enough good novels to understand what they're made of. Still, it doesn't hurt to put words to ideas, no matter how solid your understanding of the latter happens to be.

For myself, I recommend any book by James Scott Bell (Wrote an excellent Writer's Digest series or two.) or Donald Maass (Of, "Writing the Breakout Novel" fame.) I also suggest you grab a copy of Strunk &White and highly recommend its counterpart, "Spunk & Bite", by Arthur Plotnick. (Google these titles/authors and grab the books, when you can.)

While you're busy "not writing," you should be putting your reading skills to purposeful use. Read a couple of general works on writing, then start reading "like a writer" good authors with well-written novels in order to see the process in action.


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## Kyle R (Oct 24, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> This isn't a race or a lottery.  It's a guy's life.



The OP is discussing a method for becoming a better writer. He wasn't asking for life advice (from what I could see).

I understand your comments are being made with good intentions, but I believe the OP is the only person here with the right to judge the merits of his own pursuits. :encouragement:


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## The Tourist (Oct 24, 2013)

No, but the writer himself paints this as a life goal.  Did you marry the first person you met?


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## Tettsuo (Oct 24, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> No, but the writer himself paints this as a life goal.  Did you marry the first person you met?


A lot of people actually do. :sentimental:

I get what you're saying Tourist, and even agree with a lot of it.  I also think he needs to get out and experience life, find his voice and go from there.  But, I disagree with your methods.

When you made your mind up that you're going to do/be something, would have listened to your advice?  Think about it.

Certainly not!  You were sure of it and wouldn't let anyone tell you different.  I know the feeling because I've been there myself.

In regards to the thread... it doesn't work like that.  You can't become better at painting by not painting.  You can't become better at dancing by reading about dance.  The only way to do it is to do it.  What you can do imo, is to *find out what you want to say to the world*.  You can only do that by finding out who you are as a person, and that's a road only you can travel.

So yeah, as Tourist has stated, go and do some stuff!  Trying different things... why not?  Writing is always be waiting for you if you love it.  It's not like a girl/guy that leave you.  And, so long as you write from the heart, it'll always love you back.


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## The Tourist (Oct 24, 2013)

Tettsuo said:


> When you made your mind up that you're going to do/be something, would have listened to your advice?  Think about it.
> 
> Certainly not!  You were sure of it and wouldn't let anyone tell you different.  I know the feeling because I've been there myself.



We actually agree 100%.  I was young and dumb and did it "my way" all of the time.  And I made a lot of mistakes.  But I had good mentors.

But what he should do, and what he will do, (probably two differing things) is up to him and most likely will be dead wrong.  We have decades of experience on him.

Now, if a writer here read my stuff, pointed out flaws, weaknesses and showed me that my theme was a pedantic derivative of another failed author, I'd probably listen and reflect.  But then, I don't jump into barroom brawls and chase every redhead either.  You live, you learn.

If the kid hears anything I said, let it be to consider all of the possibilities, that's it.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Oct 24, 2013)

I'm of the firm belief that no one can be taught to write.  You either understand how to do it or you don't, and all the classes, mentors, and advice books can only point you in the right direction.  For example, so many people ask, "How can I make my characters seem more real?" At that point, the best you'll ever be able to do is fake it well.  There's a wealth of real characters out there that we encounter nearly every hour of every day: other people! If you haven't learned how to write compelling characters simply from life experience, you're never going to.

Unfortunately, there's an inescapable disconnect between your potential as a writer, and your passion for being a writer.  The majority of the world have no passion nor potential, and that's fine for them.  A lucky few have both.  In between, though, there's a large amount of people who have plenty of passion, but no potential.  (The cases where a person has talent but no drive are rarely worth mentioning.)  Unfortunately for them, not all dreams can come true, and that's the harsh reality of life.

I don't know what category ViKtoricus falls into, but with threads like "I need a mentor" and "I'm worried I'll run out of ideas," odds are good he falls into the third category.  Regardless, my advice is the same.

Vik, you're young, and now's the time to explore your interests.  Grab something you like and go after it.  If this works for you, fantastic, but don't be blinded by your passion.  Someone else said you have the desire to create, not write, and I completely understand that.  Either way, understand that passions rarely last.  You're a completely different person than you were five years ago, and you'll be someone new five years from now.  Take life as it comes and make the most of it, but don't think your mindset now will last forever.


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## Sam (Oct 24, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> We actually agree 100%.  I was young and dumb and did it "my way" all of the time.  And I made a lot of mistakes.  But I had good mentors.
> 
> But what he should do, and what he will do, (probably two differing things) is up to him and most likely will be dead wrong.  We have decades of experience on him.
> 
> ...



I got an F in high-school English and my first novel was a pile of stinking horse manure. Today, I'm halfway through a master's degree in English literature. I've had a novel traditionally published, two more self-published, and a number of non-fiction essays printed in scholarly journals. If you had read my work back then, you'd have said the same thing to me as you're saying to Vik now: to give up. I didn't give up. I worked my backside off because writing was my passion. There's a certain amount of it that is natural talent, and I've always been a staunch advocate of the notion, but anyone can become proficient at writing. All it takes is commitment to the cause. The downfall of such people, however, is that being able to write well is invariably not the same as being able to tell stories that matter to people. In that regard, one is born with such ability. That's what I believe Gamer is talking about. But the process by which one becomes good at creating sentences that are syntactically and grammatically sound can be learned and mastered by _anyone. _


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## Gamer_2k4 (Oct 24, 2013)

Sam said:


> The downfall of such people, however, is that being able to write well is invariably not the same as being able to tell stories that matter to people. In that regard, one is born with such ability. That's what I believe Gamer is talking about. But the process by which one becomes good at creating sentences that are syntactically and grammatically sound can be learned and mastered by _anyone. _



Correct.  Anyone can learn the rules of football, but not everyone can learn to _play_ football.  Writing is no different.


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## Gavrushka (Oct 24, 2013)

I think every writer would be more comfortable if they could just accept the above couple of posts. For a lot of us, writing must be considered an enjoyable hobby, and it just may produce a short story or two that are published in an e-zine. Perhaps we can self publish a novel that produces a little income, but I doubt writing will be the primary means of financial support for more than a very few of us.

I accept that it has to be down to innate ability, but I think much of that talent remains latent as we learn the trade.

I accept it is very unlikely I will ever be published on merit. When I embraced that truth, writing felt even more pleasurable.

But I'll never stop badgering agents!


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## Morkonan (Oct 24, 2013)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> Correct.  Anyone can learn the rules of football, but not everyone can learn to _play_ football.  Writing is no different.



Nobody ever accomplished anything of consequence without passion - That's one of my personal mottos.

Who can say whether or not a fledgeling writer could discover their talent without any formal training or pursuit of the craft? It may be that there's one obstacle between making their Breakout Novel and throwing all their worthless manuscripts in the garbage. Personally, I don't believe that "writing" is something that can not be taught. It goes against every principle, anywhere, that serves as the basis for any organized human behavior, everywhere. That doesn't mean that you can be solely "taught" to be a Master. But, if you want to learn how to write and you have enough passion to get you through the difficult times you_ might_ have, then you can learn how to write. You can even learn how to write well, in my opinion.

Anyone can learn how to play football. If they've got the functional working parts, they can play. But, that doesn't mean they'll be the Most Valuable Player on the team. Still, that's not the qualifier here, is it? All we care about is whether or not they can be taught how to play. Can you name any sport in which players aren't taught how to play? A profession? Are books on writing only written for master drafters?

* On a semi-related note: In my opinion, I think people are being a bit too judgmental in regards to a particular individual. The forum is, after all, here to serve those who ask questions, not just those who have answers.


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## Kyle R (Oct 24, 2013)

I don't agree with the presumption that writing can't be learned, or that storytelling can't be taught. Tell that to all the successful writers who got where they are today through hard work, study, and practice.

They are the ones who sloughed through mounds of rejections and weak writing, getting better with each successive piece, learning more with each consecutive critique, until they made it through to the other side. Meanwhile, others gave up along the way.

Often, those who give up become naysayers, disparaging the aspirations of other writers simply because they themselves didn't have the fortitude to persist.

I don't mean this as an attack on those who choose not to pursue a career in writing. There's nothing wrong with that at all.

But I do notice pessimism gets thrown around a lot at hopeful writers. It's easy to mock someone for having lofty goals. But lofty doesn't mean unattainable. It just means it requires a lot more work to get there—more work than many people are willing, or able, to put into it.

But there are those who are willing, and able, to strive for such things. You can find them easily: just go to any bookstore and look at the names on the shelves.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Oct 24, 2013)

Morkonan said:


> Anyone can learn how to play football. If they've got the functional working parts, they can play. But, that doesn't mean they'll be the Most Valuable Player on the team. Still, that's not the qualifier here, is it?



It certainly is.  When I speak of becoming a writer, I do so with the underlying assumption that such a person writes well.  It is not merely the act of putting words on paper that makes one a writer, but the ability to do so in a compelling manner.



KyleColorado said:


> But I do notice pessimism gets thrown around a lot at hopeful writers. It's easy to mock someone for having lofty goals. But lofty doesn't mean unattainable. It just means it requires a lot more work to get there—more work than many people are willing, or able, to put into it.



I only have the expectations of others that I do of myself.  No matter what anyone else says or thinks of my writing, it's all worthless until I can go to a bookstore and pick up something with my name on it.  Until I've accomplished everything, I've accomplished nothing.

There is such an excess of "hopeful writers" that it's impossible to patronize them all, if we should even be doing that in the first place.  That's why I have the pessimism I do: the success rate is so low that there's no place for praise except when presented with the finished product.  Odds are, a "hopeful" is going to fail.  It's on them to prove me wrong.


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## voltigeur (Oct 24, 2013)

I would never suggest you try to get good at writing by not writing. Keep writing no matter how terrible it is. Cadence challenged me in a discussion here “are you writing or just talking about writing?” I do a lot of business writing on social media discussing different professional topics.  Point is I write all the time; not just on my WIP. 

One of the exercises my teacher used in high school (too many years to admit to), was to write a ton of short stuff. We were encouraged to try new ideas and ways of using words. Some worked some didn’t but we got better and better. 

Anyway just my 2 cents.


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## The Tourist (Oct 24, 2013)

I think we're confusing writing with life.  All some of us are recommending is that the boy keep his options open.  He shouldn't even be deciding whether to wear boxers or briefs at this young age, much less schooling, women or a career.

Writing is important to us because, duh, we're writers.  He might not be.  He might customize his first automobile, step back to look at his handiwork and say, _"What the heck was I thinking wasting time writing all of those stories."_


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## Sam (Oct 24, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> I think we're confusing writing with life.  All some of us are recommending is that the boy keep his options open.  He shouldn't even be deciding whether to wear boxers or briefs at this young age, much less schooling, women or a career.
> 
> Writing is important to us because, duh, we're writers.  He might not be.  He might customize his first automobile, step back to look at his handiwork and say, _"What the heck was I thinking wasting time writing all of those stories."_



That may very well be, but how about you let him find that out on his own?


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## The Tourist (Oct 24, 2013)

Sam said:


> That may very well be, but how about you let him find that out on his own?



That's exactly my point--free choice.  Let him make it on his own.

It seems that lots of members here want him to write, no matter what.  Why?  That might be their dream, not his.

I prefaced this with the comment that my parents decided my fate when I was still a child.  They made a mistake.  He might indeed be a member of a writing forum, but he might not be a writer.


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## J Anfinson (Oct 24, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> It seems that lots of members here want him to write, no matter what.  Why?  That might be their dream, not his.



I won't speak for others, but I wasn't telling him that he had to do anything, only advising him that he didn't need to quit writing in order to learn it. If he decides that writing isn't for him then that's his choice not mine.


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## Smith (Oct 24, 2013)

I can relate to The Tourist. I come from a middle-class family who is just scraping by. My parents always wanted me to do something for the money. "Become a lawyer, it pays well. Become a heart surgeon, you'll make a lot of cash." They seemed interesting career choices, and for a while becoming a lawyer was an actual consideration. Why did I end up changing my mind?

Too much work. Not that I don't mind putting in the effort, that isn't the core of the problem. The cause of the problem for me was lack of passion. I have the passion to become a writer, and I think that enables me to do whatever it takes to work towards that goal. I think I'm actually younger than the OP here, so arguably I still have many years before I'll know what I truly want. I already think I met "the one" as The Tourist here mentioned and well... yeah.

Now, as far as natural talent goes, it exists. Not to sound arrogant but I feel as if I was born with a knack for writing. I was reading at a college level in 5th grade. But there's a difference between writing and storytelling. Both can be worked on, it isn't like you cannot improve your storytelling capability. I think that is where I lack most, in my ability to story tell, and I'm doing my best to focus on that and improve that. I know a lot of the rules and some of the methods, let's try to apply those and see if I can craft a story from it.

So sure, some people might be born a prodigy at writing. That just gives them a head-start in my opinion, perhaps an advantage of having their own unique writing style. In my opinion I feel it is true somebody will always be better and somebody always worse than you at something. I played soccer up until last year, my Freshman year, and I knew the rules. I was fantastic at the game, rarely benched. But I couldn't play forward or mid-field. My role was a defender, and I could play any defensive position. So perhaps writing is this man's passion, but maybe he should try all sorts of writing to see what suits him best (unless he already has)? Just like there are different positions in soccer, he could try different varieties of writing. Poetry, non-fiction, fiction... maybe we'll see him writing columns in a Sports Magazine some day.

EDIT: Maybe that's why he's asking all these questions in regards to running out of ideas and so forth. Writing is his true passion, but perhaps it should be considered that he could do better work outside of fiction. Just a thought, he knows himself better than I - or we - do.


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## The Tourist (Oct 24, 2013)

Smith said:


> I can Not to sound arrogant but I feel as if I was born with a knack for writing.



That's not arrogant, at all.  _*You found your spot in life*_, your niche, and notice it came after you made your choice.  You did not accept the force-feeding of the ideas from others.

I am the best polisher and sharpener you've ever seen.  I can make a Japanese trained sushi chef wince when he uses my edges.  But to get to that place I had to listen to my own advice.  But like yourself, I no longer have to apologize for the quality work I do.  And I worked harder during these past decades--but gladly.  I want to be at this spot.

I am not a credit manager, I am a polisher.



> EDIT: Maybe that's why he's asking all these questions in regards to running out of ideas and so forth.



If anything, we should key on this issue.  The boy had limited ideas, struggled with those he had and really had no choice but to turn outward for any new beginnings.  I'll bet you a chocolate chip cookie that there were days he signed on, saw the writers here write less than stellar critiques and it tore him up.  That's not the way to spend your adult working career.


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## Gyarachu (Oct 24, 2013)

ViKtoricus,

Reading through this thread I can't help but notice that most of the posts don't really relate to your question, nor do they seem all that helpful or particularly encouraging.

My answer: No, I do not think it is a good idea to put a pause on writing to 'learn' through reading. Read as much as you can, for sure, but keep writing. As for how-to books, don't overdo it, just read stuff you enjoy, and try to branch out into genres you may not be incredibly interested in-- but keep writing.

As for all the life advice getting thrown about on this thread, and I mean no disrespect to the posters: ignore it. It is irrelevant to what you asked. In my interpretation of your post, you were not asking whether or not writing was a suitable career for you. Thus, you shouldn't have to defend your desire to write. You did, however, make it clear that it is something you enjoy. So write to your hearts content.

And again, no, I wouldn't recommend ceasing to write for the purpose of learning through reading. You can do both.


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## ViKtoricus (Oct 24, 2013)

KyleColorado said:


> The OP is discussing a method for becoming a better writer. He wasn't asking for life advice (from what I could see).
> 
> I understand your comments are being made with good intentions, but I believe the OP is the only person here with the right to judge the merits of his own pursuits. :encouragement:



Exactly.

- - - Updated - - -



KyleColorado said:


> The OP is discussing a method for becoming a better writer. He wasn't asking for life advice (from what I could see).
> 
> I understand your comments are being made with good intentions, but I believe the OP is the only person here with the right to judge the merits of his own pursuits. :encouragement:



Exactly.


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## ViKtoricus (Oct 24, 2013)

Gyarachu said:


> ViKtoricus,
> 
> Reading through this thread I can't help but notice that most of the posts don't really relate to your question, nor do they seem all that helpful or particularly encouraging.
> 
> ...





A refreshing post. Thanks.


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## Smith (Oct 24, 2013)

Oh dear haha. ^_^ I think I've shared my two pennies. Chickity check yourselves before you wreck yourselves everybody. And with that I am off, have a good night / day.


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## ppsage (Oct 24, 2013)

For me personally, I think the habit of having thoughts and imaginings which are apt for expressing in text is something which gets rusty if I don't practice somehow. I need to exercise the connection between my head and my fingers pretty often or it gets slow and sloppy. This ability might be both a skill and a talent, which comes more naturally to gifted persons.


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## Elowan (Oct 25, 2013)

Writing without writing? Yeah right.

I learned to be an eye surgeon by reading, assisting, and then actually doing.

Reading is good to be sure but write you must.


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## Morkonan (Oct 25, 2013)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> It certainly is.  When I speak of becoming a writer, I do so with the underlying assumption that such a person writes well.  It is not merely the act of putting words on paper that makes one a writer, but the ability to do so in a compelling manner...



Ah, but that's moving the bar, isn't it? Is the definition of a "Writer" someone who "writes well?" Still, one can _learn_ to write well. It all depends on whether or not one can apply oneself properly to studying and, more importantly, applying those studies to crafting a story. But, that does not mean that every writer will always write well or that when they don't write well, they're no longer a writer.

There really isn't any human endeavor that isn't taught and, through that process, brings new masters into the craft. Yes, I agree that there are some nuances that may be only attainable by those with a combination of certain skills uniquely suitable to writing. But, that's something you'll also find in any human endeavor. Some people just seem to be "naturals", but that doesn't mean that all people who practice that craft must have a natural aptitude for it.

A writer never stops learning. 

This long-running Nature/Nurture debate that has co-opted many Writing discussions is not something I think we'll solve in this thread. We have our different opinions, that's all. 


On another note:

I do not think it is appropriate to chastise someone for seeking knowledge nor is it appropriate for us, as so-called "Writers", to attempt to scrye the future history of this person and declare them somehow "unfit." It's shameful. This sort of behavior needs to stop. Criticize proffered works, of course. That is their purpose. But, keep the criticisms in the appropriate forums and in regards to the appropriate sorts of offerings.


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## Jeko (Oct 25, 2013)

> This isn't a race or a lottery. It's a guy's life. And I'll be honest here, like many boomers I was pushed by my parents to get a college degree and go into white-collar management. It was literally the most ignorant, worthless advice I ever got. I would have been happier making custom cowboy boots.
> 
> Let's not make the same mistake here. My folks projected their dreams and aspirations onto me. Those dreams were not mine. You have a love of writing, I have the luxury of being a total literary failure. I'm not sure that's his circumstance.



Your lack of understanding is appreciated.


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## The Tourist (Oct 25, 2013)

Cadence, think of your own experiences.  When were the times in your life when you were the most productive?  If you're like Poe, it was when you were drunk and depressed and writing was a catharsis.

Or, it was when you had a great job and were in a solid relationship.

These were times when words flowed out of you.  But the times you wrote crap were when you said, "Ya' know, I got nuttin' to do, should I cut the grass, snake out the drains or write a sonnet?" 

I believe sincerely that there are other issues at stake, nothing pressing, but taking up way too much of his time.  He's scattered.  He approaches writing like making toast or doing the laundry.  This has to change.  Writing more of the same is not the answer unless the goal is deforestation.


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## Jeko (Oct 25, 2013)

> These were times when words flowed out of you. But the times you wrote crap were when you said, "Ya' know, I got nuttin' to do, should I cut the grass, snake out the drains or write a sonnet?"



No they weren't.

You're deluded into thinking you're the archetype for every person on the planet.


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## The Tourist (Oct 25, 2013)

Cadence said:


> No they weren't.  You're deluded into thinking you're the archetype for every person on the planet.



Fair enough.  What triggers your creative milieu?  Was it defining life moments?  Music?  Travel?  

Or did you really get up one morning and say, _"Well, I have to do something, I'm afraid of heights so acrobat is out, I guess I'll just write..."_


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## Jeko (Oct 25, 2013)

> What triggers your creative milieu? Was it defining life moments? Music? Travel?



Getting up every morning against my wishes to write for an hour at a little before eight in the morning.

I write whether I'm hyped about my work, feel light inspiration, am having difficulty connecting with everything or feel downright miserable about my work. It gets the story told. After that I can retell it to improve how it's told, and I usually have to retell most parts, even the parts I was perfectly happy about.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Oct 25, 2013)

Morkonan said:


> Ah, but that's moving the bar, isn't it? Is the definition of a "Writer" someone who "writes well?"



It's only moving the bar if you take the term literally.  It's not the act of writing that makes someone a "writer," just as it isn't the act of running that makes someone a "runner."  I would never tell people, "Yeah, I'm a runner," if my only relevant experience is trying to catch a bus one day.

I apologize if I'm coming across as obtuse; it's not my intent.  But when I consider a "writer," I think of a person who not only has had an idea and has written it down, but has also been able to sculpt and refine it into something worth publishing.  I don't consider the guy with a ponytail and beret in a coffee shop a "writer" any more than I consider the guy running a pickup basketball game a "coach."

Are there varying levels of skill among said writers? You bet there are, but that's what makes it so hard to define what exactly a writer is, and why I define it as strictly as I do.  Having a published work seems as good a benchmark as any.


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## The Tourist (Oct 25, 2013)

Cadence said:


> Getting up every morning against my wishes...even the parts I was perfectly happy about.



Okay, that I understand.  I feel the same way about The Gaunlet and lifting.  It hurts, most times it's drudgery, but I do it anyway for the ultimate benefit.

I must admit, whether it's derived from my present circumstances or just my view of "art," I don't look at writing as a job, or a punishment or one of those "spoonful of sugar" chores that has to be done.  When I'm in the mood and the juices are flowing it's the same zen experience as polishing.  

One moment it's 10:00PM and pitch black.  The next moment it's dawn.


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## Gavrushka (Oct 25, 2013)

Gamer_2k4 said:
			
		

> Having a published work seems as good a benchmark as any.




I assume you mean published on merit, and not out of vanity, yes?

I do consider myself a writer, but not an author, and I can see you would dispute that. - I don't know what term could be applied to what I do, otherwise.

Do you have a term you apply to people who write but aren't writers by your definition? And should I turn the profanity filter off to view it? :tongue:

(light-hearted post)


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## Morkonan (Oct 26, 2013)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> ... Having a published work seems as good a benchmark as any.



That's a solid, quantitative qualifier. We can observe it and use it, reliably. But, it's rather circuitous, for all that.  

So, how is the quality of being published something you can not learn, but must be born with?  If it can't be taught, then either its an emergent quality, due to some yet-undefined natural system, or every newborn writer is somehow a _published author, _long before their work hits the shelf.

I believe I understand what you are saying and I *agree* with it, to a certain point. But, I can't agree completely with the idea that a writer is not a writer until _someone else_ awards them that honor through publishing their work. It seems the sticking-point that is the portion of your definition which  has "predictive" value isn't something that's "predictable." A  quandary... It's only predictable in reverse.

But, coming back to the O.P, if we accept your definition, then we must also agree that we are not capable of defining whether or not someone is a writer, since we're not Publishers. 

Perhaps there's validity in the title of "Struggling Writer?" It's used often enough, with obvious merit, that it's likely to be more fitting than most monickers. It's in opposition to the entire idea of a "writer" being a natural emergent quality inherent in only some people, though.

(PS - The "Coach" example is likely reaching too far, btw. Oh, and I'm not disagreeing with you just to be contrary. I respect and acknowledge your point as having some validity, however it is not particularly definable, so it's usefulness is questionable.)


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## spartan928 (Oct 26, 2013)

There are professional and amateur levels of doing virtually anything. Billions of people cobble, scribble, scratch and pound on all kinds of things for pleasure or profit. A title is part of a persons identity not a measure of financial gain. A lowly writer, or artist, or athlete, or dancer, or machinist, or carpenter (OK, you get it) decides to use a title to identify themselves with something they are passionate and devoted to. Who am I to deny them? Why should others create some kind of erroneous qualifier for what a "writer" is and isn't? If somebody writes because they are intrinsically motivated to do so and want to consider themselves a writer, so be it.

In my unprofessional, unpublished, student of writing opinion.


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## The Tourist (Oct 26, 2013)

Spartan928, I agree with every word you just wrote here.  This situation differs slightly.

I wrote for decades before I even knew there were writing forums.  But when I entered I found that it was structured like any other form of club.  A tad cloistered, but it was an organization like any other.

I will admit, I was a busboy at The North Hills Country Club in the 1960s--it's the place where Gerald Ford beaned a spectator with a golf ball.  It was the classic example of a cloistered society, and like here, they had pro golfers, some very good amateurs and a herd of hacks.  Obviously, everyone wanted to get better.

The thing I realized was that while golf and dining might have brought these diverse people together, it was the "club" that was the fabric that held the whole spiel as one.  This was the place they came for conversation, entertainment and a respite.

I find that same concept here, and I can understand why someone would want to be a part of that.  I also know that some forums are more for serious authors with a goal of publishing a book.  You pick your poison.

But the choice you make as an individual member (in any group) must be in conjunction with the organization as a whole.  If you decide to come here, then you bring opinions and snippets of your work, or you can review the work of others to see what's going on in the industry, or you can simply do as I do and rub elbows with guys father down the road and pick their brains.

But I don't think coming here looking for advice on how to mix concrete is a reason for joining.  The baseline is the written word and how we infuse that into our daily lives.  And frankly, if for some reason I took up stamp collecting or horticulture, I wouldn't be here.  To add, I do not believe "just writing" will solve a single issue or crossroads I face in life.  It's the other way around, I face life, then I write.


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## Robdemanc (Oct 26, 2013)

If I were you I would drop the first person/present tense writing and do some serious third person past tense writing, and reading.  Present tense comes across as a gimmick and most writing is past tense.  Read, write, read, write for years and you will get better.


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## tabasco5 (Oct 28, 2013)

In my opinion, you need to keep writing even if you think the writing stinks and you discard it.  Reading will definitely improve your writing, and it is a must that you continue reading, but reading alone will not improve your writing.

For an example, I play electric guitar and would love to master the instrument.  When I listen to Eric Clapton or SRV or Jimi Hendrix, I hear things they do on the instrument and make mental notes to learn it.  I can then try and learn those things through practice and repetition, and over the years incorporate their playing styles or techniques into mine.  What I cannot do, however, is just listen to them and think I can improve simply by the act of listening alone--I wish I could.  So, in this example, listening is required and helpful to a point for ideas and whatnot, yet it will not help me improve my playing if I don't practice.  I can't simply listen to other guitarists for 5 years and then decide to record an album that will be as good as what they can create.  The reason great guitarists are great is because they put in the time practicing guitar, not listening.


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## Busterfriend (Dec 20, 2013)

ViKtoricus said:


> Hello all. I'd like to say hi to all those who are familiar or semi-familiar with what I am all about. I am a student in the art of writing and I am currently being mentored by John Bushore. I was talking to him through email a while ago and this was his message to me:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You don't need to stop one and do the other exclusively unless you're beginning to be burned out on whatever you're focusing on. You NEED to write EVERY DAY and read EVERY DAY. Not just one or the other. If you feel like you'd kill yourself if you wrote another word, stop and go read or do something else entirely, let it rest, then come back. No one can teach you how to write well, it's a skill you have to develop on your own. They can advise you but, it's up to you in the end.


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 20, 2013)

Learning to write by just reading is like learning to drive a race car by getting an engineering degree.


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## The Tourist (Dec 21, 2013)

Justin Rocket said:


> Learning to write by just reading is like learning to drive a race car by getting an engineering degree.



No, not 100%.  But you just don't go to a gym and start yanking on weights without a little advice.  Personally, I think coming here and talking to other writers is education by osmosis.

I'm admittedly prejudiced here on this topic.  I support myself with a trade best taught by an apprenticeship.  Granted, that concept is not always needed, but think of the years and embarrassing mistakes you won't have to live through.


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## Gavrushka (Dec 21, 2013)

For me, learning to write started with learning to love writing. - I had to learn to love it enough to accept I had to read books on style, technique and suffer frequent pummellings from critics. 

Damn, it's a long journey and I've plenty more miles yet to cover... I am sure there's some ass at the far end extending this road faster than I can walk it.


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 21, 2013)

You can get all the advice you want about lifting weights.  You won't gain any muscle mass until you actually lift weights.


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## The Tourist (Dec 21, 2013)

Justin Rocket said:


> You can get all the advice you want about lifting weights.  You won't gain any muscle mass until you actually lift weights.



To expand that analogy, I got bigger and stronger when I listened to those who know more than I thought I did.  I still get aches and pains when I get sloppy.

The overall goal of the forum is to help folks write--and get the most from their writing.  To that end, I also think we candy-coat way too much.  Everyone blanches from "hurting someone's self esteem."  But do we really help someone if they grind out substandard drek for decades?

I was like most kids, I sat in English and literature classes and wondered why I had to learn that stuff.  The entire class laughed out loud when he heard a Shakespearean character was named "fourteen bras."

The problem is that sometimes your best course of action--that is, if you ever want any future real action--is to sit down, shut up, suppress your ego and take extensive notes.


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 21, 2013)

I got bigger and stronger when I lifted weights.  Talking about lifting weights didn't seem to increase my muscle size.

NOTE: I never said that talking about writing and reading are not helpful.  But, inthe final tally, they can't replace actually writing.


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## The Tourist (Dec 21, 2013)

Justin Rocket said:


> NOTE: I never said that talking about writing and reading are not helpful.  But, inthe final tally, they can't replace actually writing.



I'm glad you added that.  And to be clear, I didn't imply to stop writing permanently, just get a modicum of education.  We had a thread here where a writer criticized his mentor.

Most of the truly rewarding things in life take time and a learning curve of study.  My craft took ten years to learn--to learn, not master.  I can understand being impatient for success and enduring the agony of a few dozen rejection slips, but usually it's the writer that has to get better, not the system.

That is, unless your idea of success is bargain bins everywhere.


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## Justin Rocket (Dec 21, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> I'm glad you added that.  And to be clear, I didn't imply to stop writing permanently, just get a modicum of education.  We had a thread here where a writer criticized his mentor.
> 
> Most of the truly rewarding things in life take time and a learning curve of study.  My craft took ten years to learn--to learn, not master.  I can understand being impatient for success and enduring the agony of a few dozen rejection slips, but usually it's the writer that has to get better, not the system.
> 
> That is, unless your idea of success is bargain bins everywhere.



A good education in a field involves actual work in that field.  For example, one of my degrees is in computer science.  No matter how well I understand bit manipulation, nothing replaces actual programming for learning how to program.  Another of my degrees is anthropology.  No matter how well I understand human evolution, nothing replaces bone and fossil analysis for learning bone and fossil analysis.  You can read all you want about Y5 molars.  The instant you are first able to see the pattern in the molars is something that won't happen in a book.


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## The Tourist (Dec 21, 2013)

Justin Rocket said:


> A good education in a field involves actual work in that field.



Agreed.  But do you know how many hours of "wax on, wax off" waterstone flattening I had to do?  Yikes, I didn't even put a stone on a samurai sword until about two years ago.

My point is that desire is a component, and study is a necessity.  If it wasn't then our first drafts would be printed "as is."  You will get better, but even now I make sure I read (even things I don't like) just to glean information.

And yes, I'm a very good sharpener.  I'm glad I studied.


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## Smith (Dec 22, 2013)

I'm glad I found this thread. There are a lot of days where I want to put two fingers to my head, if you know what I mean. I haven't even touched the story I want to write in over nearly two months. It's like I can picture it in my head, but it just gets lost in the transition to paper. Very depressing, annoying, discouraging...

Maybe, hopefully reading more will alleviate that. Perhaps also the solution is to write regardless, and the finish line is right around the corner. Kind of hard when 3/4 of my day is wasted by school and there are other things I'd like to do in that 1/4.


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## tabasco5 (Dec 22, 2013)

Smith said:


> I'm glad I found this thread. There are a lot of days where I want to put two fingers to my head, if you know what I mean. I haven't even touched the story I want to write in over nearly two months. It's like I can picture it in my head, but it just gets lost in the transition to paper. Very depressing, annoying, discouraging...
> 
> Maybe, hopefully reading more will alleviate that. Perhaps also the solution is to write regardless, and the finish line is right around the corner. Kind of hard when 3/4 of my day is wasted by school and there are other things I'd like to do in that 1/4.



Hey Smith, I know how you feel.  Sometimes it is torture to work on a story you feel like you have lived with forever.  Having said that, the more I write the better I get at working through those times.  There are so many times when the absolute last thing I want to do is write, and when those times come, I try and at least make myself write something even if only a paragraph.  Just keep the story going and eventually it will be finished.  

Also, the part about the "lost in translation" phenomenon works itself out with time I have found.  I struggled with this with my early writing--I would let the story get away from me and go where I didn't want it to without knowing how to fix it.  I feel like I have worked some of this out over time, though there are still stories that go where they aren't supposed to and I have to do some surgery.

How long have you been writing for?


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## Greimour (Dec 23, 2013)

Smith said:


> I'm glad I found this thread. There are a lot of days where I want to put two fingers to my head, if you know what I mean. I haven't even touched the story I want to write in over nearly two months. It's like I can picture it in my head, but it just gets lost in the transition to paper. Very depressing, annoying, discouraging...
> 
> Maybe, hopefully reading more will alleviate that. Perhaps also the solution is to write regardless, and the finish line is right around the corner. Kind of hard when 3/4 of my day is wasted by school and there are other things I'd like to do in that 1/4.



Ditto.

I get what fenbield said, but I think this is one of those things that's different for each person.

For me, the transition to paper was a fail the moment I tried to begin the story. It must have been well into my fiftieth attempt at writing the story when I realized that it was more than just my writing that was failing. I realized, in fact, that besides my main character - I didn't actually "know" any of my other characters. I ended up writing a background story for more than fifty characters in the book. (Oddly I enjoyed it) ... I learned there traits, quirks, speech patterns, personalities and limits. I think it was a good exercise. I tried to write again.

This time I realized I couldn't quite end a scene and move on in time to the next.
Writers here on the forum helped me with that... the strongest piece of advice being : "End when the actions ends and start with action again." 
Such stupidly simple advice should have been a "duh" no brainer moment for me... like why had I failed to do that to that moment? But it remained lost on me and I remianed lost. Still, I wrote action scenes that had no connecting plot but revolved around the same character in different timelines of the same story. I eventually worked out most of my kinks in time transition. Now I have a bad habit of writing stupidly small scenes like; 3 paragraphs from perspective A, jump to perspective B two days later, 4 paragraphs and back to perspective A... (I will fix that habit later - for now its a good way of slamming out the full story without actually writing all 150,000+ words.)


However... I still occasionally... have a very hard time changing what is in my head to words on paper. 

A Director without a set.


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## Smith (Dec 23, 2013)

fenbields5 said:


> Hey Smith, I know how you feel.  Sometimes it is torture to work on a story you feel like you have lived with forever.  Having said that, the more I write the better I get at working through those times.  There are so many times when the absolute last thing I want to do is write, and when those times come, I try and at least make myself write something even if only a paragraph.  Just keep the story going and eventually it will be finished.
> 
> Also, the part about the "lost in translation" phenomenon works itself out with time I have found.  I struggled with this with my early writing--I would let the story get away from me and go where I didn't want it to without knowing how to fix it.  I feel like I have worked some of this out over time, though there are still stories that go where they aren't supposed to and I have to do some surgery.
> 
> How long have you been writing for?



Glad I'm not the only one. I've always liked writing and wanted to be a writer, but I haven't really been too serious about it until a couple years ago. And yeah, I think I can relate to your last paragraph. I do have a general, very vague outline of the story in my head. But I don't sit down and plan out each and every little thing. I find it too restricting and robotic. Instead I suppose I begin with some sort of start, then figure out a general ending, and how I get from A to B is the hard part.



Greimour said:


> Ditto.
> 
> I get what fenbield said, but I think this is one of those things that's different for each person.
> 
> ...



Hmm... Those are some interesting pieces of advice. I'll consider writing a small short-story sized background story for some of my characters when I get the time and see how it goes. Character development is one of the many things I struggle with so perhaps that would be good to try. At the moment I have all these awesome scenes played out in my head. With characters full of unique traits and qualities and looks, who have their own voice and ideas. Totally epic battle scenes or ideas about how the main character is going to change, and how meaningful that change is. It all plays out in my head like it was a movie.

Then I look at the page and I see some pretty awesome white. With a lot of very interesting blank spots.


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