# HELP! how do you structure an outline?



## W.Goepner (Mar 22, 2014)

How do you structure an outline? I honestly, have never been able to do one. My teachers tried to get me to make them, to no avail. I could swear by the end of the year they had less hair. 

All joking aside. This is what I believe I know about outlines. Title. Beginning. Body. End. All the steps that make up the body are lost on me. Not being able to set up an outline is what made my first complete story come out to be 243,076 Words. I wright from the hip or on the fly, so to speak. As it comes to me I write it. Structure comes as I read over the paragraph or sentence I just wrote. Often as you can tell from what I have posted thus far, it takes me quite a few reads to even get it close to a decent structure. And Well. I fail dramatically. I have many times tried to build an outline but I run into this part of me that says "If I know the body of the story I do not need the outline." However... I have only the thought of a start and how I see the end. every thing else well... 

You see "Dog Man" begins and ends almost in the same place. The finale brings him to a point and place that he understands it all and excepts his fate. Of every thing I have begun "Dog Man" is the closest to an outlined piece I have ever come. That mostly is due to talking about is here in WF. and thinking about what it was about. Loosing the thread of the idea then getting it again has reset my desire in this one.

If there is some where any one can direct me or advice you can give me. Please do.


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## eggo (Mar 22, 2014)

For what purpose?


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## aj47 (Mar 22, 2014)

What eggo said.   Context is important.  It could be a line of chalk drawn around a corpse. Or the shape of something.  In writing, it's generally akin to "talking points" about some written work.   

I hope this is helpful.


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## W.Goepner (Mar 22, 2014)

Sorry, Sorry. I hit enter while correcting the title. I then was completing my meaning as you posted. please reread it.


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## aj47 (Mar 22, 2014)

It's okay, thanks for the heads-up.

If you ever talk about your story, those points that you feel are important enough to tell are what go in the outline.

Let me try an example.



They crossed the border before dawn, destroying our planes on the ground
We held in the woods waiting for orders we never got
the front moved past us and we had to go back through their lines.
All summer they drove us back through the Ukraine
Smolensk and viasma fell
By autumn we were at Orel.

As they reached Moscow, the winter began, rainy and cold
Their tanks were glued to the ground
Retracing Napoleon's steps, they fall at Moscow
Now the tide has turned and we're headed for Berlin
I've carried this gun for about 4 years
At home, spring would be starting

They send old men and children to fight us
I was taken prisoner
for only one day

They ask about it and the train takes me to a "transit camp"
I'll never see home again.

[video=youtube;BAqP35A9Oi8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAqP35A9Oi8&amp;feature=share&amp;list=FLSLHfLzP7R  6xY5ECEVQ6U0A&amp;index=18[/video]


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## W.Goepner (Mar 22, 2014)

Astroannie,



> If you ever talk about your story, those points that you feel are important enough to tell are what go in the outline.



Then while I was talking over what I posted and dredging around my brain, (rattle rattle, empty for some reason) I figured a structure for the story and see the beginnings of an outline. Interesting to say the least. I still tend to fail to find those types of snippets when trying to think through or talk about what I am writing.
I must be either very dense or unable to see these things as to set them into an outline. Though I will keep plugging on and try to get it at some point otherwise I will only be writing the epic novels of 200k+ words.  it goes without saying.

Thank you, I will do my best.

Bill


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## Grizzly (Mar 23, 2014)

What you could always do is just write it normally, and then go back and reverse-engineer the outline. Might seem a bit tedious, but especially if the teacher is requesting one for points, it's worth it. I often write a first draft that's really just my jumbled stream of consciousness thoughts and derive an outline from it, just to get the ball rolling.


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## popsprocket (Mar 23, 2014)

I am a religious outliner.

My process involves writing an outline for each scene in my story. Since I write pretty much exclusively where one scene = one chapter, this makes structure very easy. 

So it's a paragraph or more per scene where I write down what I want to happen, the general gist of what characters are doing/saying, shifts in plot or relationships, and other small details. I give myself a map that will get me from the start to finish of each scene, and I write the whole scene list at once so that there is a nice flow between scenes and it doesn't feel disjointed.


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## A_Jones (Mar 23, 2014)

I cant outline.  I try and then I never look at it again.  But I do have an 'idea' page of my notebook.  It is FULL of scribbled ideas.  I would suggest, if you are not an outline-er, dont outline.  You are just wasting your time trying to do something that doesnt work for you.   Some people just cant get their brains to work like that.  

hope this helped.


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## Jeko (Mar 23, 2014)

Different minds work in different ways; just as I can't outline effectively, I can't make mind-maps either. I find alternative methods in order to 'work from a suitable design' as The Elements of Style say; maybe my design is a bit chaotic than other people's, but I like that.

It may be worth experimenting with and without outlines to see what has what effect; you never _have _to do anything when telling a story, apart from the telling the story bit.


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## bookmasta (Mar 23, 2014)

popsprocket said:


> I am a religious outliner.
> 
> My process involves writing an outline for each scene in my story. Since I write pretty much exclusively where one scene = one chapter, this makes structure very easy.
> 
> So it's a paragraph or more per scene where I write down what I want to happen, the general gist of what characters are doing/saying, shifts in plot or relationships, and other small details. I give myself a map that will get me from the start to finish of each scene, and I write the whole scene list at once so that there is a nice flow between scenes and it doesn't feel disjointed.



This.


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## W.Goepner (Mar 23, 2014)

bookmasta said:


> This.



WHAT?!


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## Bishop (Mar 23, 2014)

W.Goepner said:


> WHAT?!



She was referring to the fact that she agreed with what she quoted from popsprocket in her post.


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## W.Goepner (Mar 23, 2014)

Bishop said:


> She was referring to the fact that she agreed with what she quoted from popsprocket in her post.



I thought so. I was not sure though. That was one of those one word answers that was just a little confusing.

Thanks for clearing that up Bishop.


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## popsprocket (Mar 24, 2014)

Bishop said:


> She was referring to the fact that she agreed with what she quoted from popsprocket in her post.



Oh my. 

This might be a case of mistaken gender


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## Greimour (Apr 4, 2014)

Cadence said:


> Different minds work in different ways; just as I can't outline effectively, I can't make mind-maps either. I find alternative methods in order to 'work from a suitable design' as The Elements of Style say; maybe my design is a bit chaotic than other people's, but I like that.
> 
> It may be worth experimenting with and without outlines to see what has what effect; you never _have _to do anything when telling a story, apart from the telling the story bit.



I agree with that.



popsprocket said:


> Oh my. :grin:
> 
> This might be a case of mistaken gender :wink:



Haha, Ya, Books is a dude. ^_^

...

I don't outline. I don't think what I do is something that would be taught or practiced either.

Basically, I get an idea for nothing more than a scene. 
I then write that scene and then continue on writing everything that s/he does, says, feels, sees and so on.
I continue this until I reach a dead-end... where I don't have any idea's for what comes next. It can be anywhere from 2,00 words to 15,000 ...

I then do a new scene, to a new story... and the process is repeated over and over again.

Eventually, no scene comes to mind. I then go back to the oldest scene I have that has not yet been revised.
The oldest scene could be a year old or a few months, it doesn't matter... I read it. I smile as the memories of the story comes back to me and once I have read it, I rewrite it. From memory of what I had just read. Once I reach the dead-end, I go back and edit it, fix the prose and spellings etc... then I read it once more. 

Now I get a feel for more the story has to offer... a side character that can be a supporting character - a barely mentioned character that can be a love interest - a nasty person that could make an ideal rival... whatever it is, I find something in the story that can be expanded on or change the story. I keep working on it until that story is now something new entirely. 

The same character, same place, same setting, same theme, same genre... whole new story. My 'scene' is now an idea for a much fuller story. 

I fix my stories like that one after the other until I find an objective for one of my main characters. When a main character gets an objective, I write the story again with that objective in mind throughout. When I meet the objective, I go back and write it again, making it harder to get to that objective - adding plot twists and turns etc until I am satisfied.

In one example, it was merely the scene of a young 'person' waking up deep in the mines that was his home.
The story evolved into it being his birthday.
His family overlooked his birthday because it shared a day with a celebrated day of their history. 
Wanting to leave his home and family that forget his birthday, the young 'person' decides to join the Kings Army back in the old kingdom; where the old war wages on still.
To get there, he must do what he hates - sail on the seas...
He enlists with an old sailor hero, a rescuer of thousands of 'people' from certain death in the old kingdom; bringing them to the new promised land. 
...
That hero, I eventually decided... was the end game bad guy... the final plot twist that nearly causes my now not-quite-as-young friend to lose his life. 

Though I have skipped much of the evolution of that story, it literally started with me describing a person falling out of bed - no idea beyond writing that one scene which took two-three paragraphs.

Needless to say, when I write, it can be considered I have many works going on at the same time. Which might be why I never get around to actually finishing.


Kev.


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## W.Goepner (Apr 5, 2014)

Kev,

We are of like thinking. I write from the hip. Idea, situation, expansion, definition and expression. Quite often I do not get farther than situation. Like in this one I just posted. sorry I have not figured out how to link yet.



Writing Forum
Prose
Fiction
Fantasy, Sci-Fi and Horror
 A start of "Anyone Can Fly" (4765 words)

Check it, please.

Bill


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## W.Goepner (Apr 5, 2014)

Also check this thread I have a few snippets in there



Writing Forum 
Prose Challenges, Contests & Prompts 
WF Challenges 
 Spontaneous Writing Challenge 1 
 
 

Check pages 2 and 3

Bill


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