# In a serious dilemma, looking for really creative solutions to Copyright issues



## Max (Sep 8, 2012)

Hello all.  Please bear with me here.  This is going to be a strange thread.  I hope I am not scaring anyone away but I really need to warn people because I have had problems with this.  

This is a very very weird and unique project I am working on.  I am not a writer, but I have been forced to try to do the best I can. \Because of the nature of this project, and the seriousness of it, I can't say anything about the actual subject matter at this time.  I will need to talk about it in very vague terms.  

But, the problem is that it is also incredibly complex, so because of these 2 factors I am afraid people will lose interest.. but the other weird thing about this project is how important I feel it is. So, I really hope people will give me a chance here.

What happened is that I read a really incredible non-fiction book.  This book set me on my own path of research and I found several other incredible books related to this.. as well as a lot of other pieces of research on the web and documentaries.  All of this stuff tied together in weird ways and made one incredible picture.

The problem I have now though is that I have no idea how to convey this message to others.. no one will believe it if I come out and just say it.

What I need to do is find some way to write a nonfiction or fiction book, that will allow me to convince others what I have found and to read these books I have...

But here is where things get rally tricky.. how do I convince people to read these books when you are so limited in the amount of content you can use from other books?   

All of these books and documentaries are nonfiction though.. so this might allow me to use more but I am still worried that I will not be able to use enough info to paint an accurate picture of the situation and convince people to explore this controversial seemingly unbelievable subject. 

Does anyone know of some creative ways around this?  

The other aspect is that this will require a lot of technical information.. science stuff.  So It's difficult to just change the names and try to make them seem like different characters.

Maybe I am blowing these fears out of proportion.. Part of the reason this is so difficult is because I am not familiar with any similar situations but there might be many.  The other problem is that it is so difficult to figure this out because of the secrecy of the project.  But, I feel this is something I have to do unless I knew someone could help me really solve these issues and was trustworthy to not spread this information they also need an incredibly almost impossibly open mind.


----------



## Kyle R (Sep 8, 2012)

What you're talking about is "Fair Usage" and Permissions.

A lot of books I read on the craft of writing fiction have excerpts taken from novels and stories. Those excerpts are then discussed before moving on to the next one.

You can, generally, quote from other works as long as the length is minimal and you list the author, publisher, and title of work.

The length that you're allowed to quote is a bit tricky, as the law hasn't, as far as I'm aware, listed specific guidelines. From what I've seen, most quotes are under 200 words. If it were me, personally, I'd aim for 100 words or less.

Anything beyond a minimally-sized quote would require permission from the owner of the copyright. Probably the _safest_ route would be to seek permission regardless, but that's a decision you would have to make. . .

I recommend reading up on _Fair Use and Permissions_. Google's a good place to start. 

Here's a brief article I found while looking up the subject.

When Do You Need to Secure Permissions? | Jane Friedman


----------



## Max (Sep 8, 2012)

Do you know what the rules are regarding complete rewording?  I heard that you are even very limited here and that someone could still sue you if you go overboard there as well.

The thing that makes this so tricky is that this subject matter is incredibly complex and controversial.  It took every WORD of these books to convince me of how real they were.  I just don't know how I can convey how important this is being so limited in what I can include.. essentially a book review it seems to me.

What I was hoping is to find some way to work around this but that might not be possible without someone else knowing all the details.


----------



## Kyle R (Sep 8, 2012)

Talking _about_ the work is fine and fair game. _Citing_ the work is where copyrights come into play.

Honestly I think your best approach is to just write what you feel compelled to write. Cite what you feel compelled to cite. Then, once you have something physical to look at, you can post it in the Workshop to obtain feedback and advice from others, without having to worry about breaking any copyright rules (the workshop here is protected).

If you have cited too much, I'm sure the knowledgable members here will let you know. Maybe with some finger wagging. Then you can adjust things accordingly, until you feel satisfied with it. :encouragement:


----------



## Max (Sep 8, 2012)

You make it sound so simple, Kyle!   That is what I had originally thought.. but someone had told me that even if you reword things completely.. if you give away too much of the source material you damage the market of the source material.  

But the whole point of me writing this is to try to get people to read them to see how they all fit together and my few missing pieces. Without being able to explain those books in-depth I may not have a book.  

Maybe that tells me that I am looking at this wrong or maybe I just don't have enough material for a book yet?



What if the books aren't very well known? I wonder if the books are obscure, like these are, if the publishers would be much more lenient about using a lot of information? Or if they will always enforce the rules if they can? How could I find this out?


----------



## Max (Sep 8, 2012)

double post


----------



## Cran (Sep 8, 2012)

Slow down, *Max*; you're hyperventilating. 

You believe that you've put all of the pieces together and made a profound discovery that will stun the general and scientific community to its roots; I can tell because there's a lot of "incredible" going on in your enthusiasm.

You've done a lot of armchair research in pursuit of your brilliant idea, but you don't know how to write it up.

You know that paraphrasing other people's work is not a way to get around copyright, but you have not yet learned how to synthesise, nor how to tabulate and present findings from other sources. In other words, you don't know how to write up your research. 

You're concerned on the one hand that someone else will steal your stroke of genius; and on the other hand that nobody will believe you, because that belief would require an "impossibly open mind".  

It took every word of each mostly unknown book from obscure publishers to convince you that your missing pieces solve the puzzle, and so you want to bring about a marketing and promotion campaign to get other people to read those same books, after which they will be properly prepared to receive your idea. 

Take heart, *Max*; you're not alone. Thousands of people have experiences like yours every year. 

What can you do about it? Go to school, *Max*. Go to university and study the science you want to use. Even if you only get through one year, you will have learned how to compile research and write it up without infringing copyright. You can work on your own project while you are studying.


----------



## Olly Buckle (Sep 8, 2012)

Cran always talks reasonable sense, Max, and is knowledgable on such subjects. He is right, enthusiasm does not necessarily equate with urgency, and from what you have said it seems unlikely that anyone is going to pre-empt you. Going to University may seem like a lot of commitment, I don't know where you are, but here in England there are Open University courses that allow you to study over a longer period in your spare time, perhaps something like that is available to you. Best of luck.


----------



## Max (Sep 8, 2012)

Thanks so much for the responses Cran and Olly...

I know how this must sound.  It gets far far far weirder though.  I honestly believe there is a time factor in this.

I have tried to give this information to people to get them to make it more quickly.  But the subject matter has such a stigma attached to it that people's minds shutdown the instant it is brought up.

I have tried to explain the information I have discovered to many people but it requires such a huge amount of study and so much time invested and such a high level of scientific knowledge that very few people will go through it.. And the people in science with the knowledge to understand it are so closed to this subject matter they won't touch it with a 1000 foot pole. It's career suicide.

If I was to bring this subject matter up here most people would laugh and disappear and this thread would get zero attention. This is why I feel I have to keep it to myself. If there is any chance of conveying it to others I need to find the perfect way to convey it and find some way to teach people the scientific concepts necessary to understand it.

I don't even know if this is possible.. but I truly feel it's that important.

Also, this information is very specialized.  No one else has covered this subject matter in books to any degree.  So I am not sure if experience would change that, but I don't know..

Does anyone have any examples of people writing books similar to this? Where they breakdown someone else's entire book of rare information and discoveries or several books to convey to others?


----------



## alanmt (Sep 8, 2012)

A very Lovecraftian box you find yourself in, Max.  Is the time factor due to some threat to your life?  

Here's my advice:  

1.  Consult a publishing and copyright attorney.  Be prepared to spend money to find the answers to your legal questions.

2.  Consult with reputable ghostwriters about undertaking your project for you.  Be prepared to spend money to have your ideas put into a publishable form.

If you don't have the money, start saving.  Also, consider some counseling, if for nothing else than to deal with the stress you seem to be under.


----------



## Cran (Sep 8, 2012)

Max said:


> I have tried to explain the information I have discovered to many people but it requires such a huge amount of study and so much time invested and such a high level of scientific knowledge that very few people will go through it..


And yet you understand it. Does that mean you have a high level of scientific knowledge? 



> If there is any chance of conveying it to others I need to find the perfect way to convey it and find some way to teach people the scientific concepts necessary to understand it.


We've already told you the perfect way - in fact, the only way. It doesn't matter if your pet subject isn't taught by anyone else. University level education doesn't teach you what to learn; it teaches you _how to learn_ for yourself. Any practical first year course is going to give you the skills you are looking for here: how to research, how to synthesise that research, and how to present that synthesis in both written and oral formats. If practical courses scare you, then take a course in Philosophy; it will help you discern logic and reason, and still give you the same skills you want. 



> I don't even know if this is possible.. but I truly feel it's that important.
> 
> Also, this information is very specialized.  No one else has covered this subject matter in books to any degree.  So I am not sure if experience would change that, but I don't know..
> 
> Does anyone have any examples of people writing books similar to this? Where they breakdown someone else's entire book of rare information and discoveries or several books to convey to others?


Yes. University Libraries are full of them.


----------



## Max (Sep 8, 2012)

Alanmt, thanks so much for the response.



> A very Lovecraftian box you find yourself in, Max. Is the time factor due to some threat to your life?



This is something that could effect all of us... it is tied in with world events

Also, to ease people's concerns this isn't just one man's delusions.  I have spoken to a family member of a well known scientist involved in this saga about what I discovered and she was the one who kept recommending I write a book about this. She said I was miles ahead of everyone else she had been in contact with regarding this subject.



> Here's my advice:
> 
> 1. Consult a publishing and copyright attorney. Be prepared to spend money to find the answers to your legal questions.
> 
> 2. Consult with reputable ghostwriters about undertaking your project for you. Be prepared to spend money to have your ideas put into a publishable form.



My hope was just to find some similar work that I could use as a guide.




> If you don't have the money, start saving. Also, consider some counseling, if for nothing else than to deal with the stress you seem to be under.



Yeah... it is pretty stressful.  Not knowing what course of action to take with a lot of pressure and an almost impossible task is tough.  But don't be too worried.  I am just trying to impress upon people the situation I am in.  But I try to take it all with a grain of salt while still recognizing the responsibility of this.


----------



## Max (Sep 8, 2012)

> And yet you understand it. Does that mean you have a high level of scientific knowledge?



In my own way, yes. Believe it or not.  The problem is that there is no field for this topic of study.  I would have to battle the the entire scientific establishment to get this information through conventional channels as I feel you are proposing.

I have studied science and technology as a hobby my entire life.  I have been studying this subject matter for the past 3 years, nearly full time, approximately.




> We've already told you the perfect way - in fact, the only way. It doesn't matter if your pet subject isn't taught by anyone else. University level education doesn't teach you what to learn; it teaches you _how to learn for yourself. _


_

We get back to the same problem though.. there is nowhere near enough time for this.  I need to find some solution to avoid that entire course. I know this is a tough premise to accept.. and you may be right.. there may be no solution.

_


> _
> Yes. University Libraries are full of them._



Is this why it takes so long for knowledge to spread much of the time because of how difficult it is to navigate the legalities of all this proprietary research? Or you have to pay heavily for it?


----------



## Deleted member 49710 (Sep 8, 2012)

Most original research is based on previously completed research by other people. One avoids copyright issues by a) citing sources, both for specific citations and in a bibliography, b) paraphrasing to the extent possible (you're not copying whole pages from other works, just key phrases and paragraphs, which you cite appropriately), and c) drawing original conclusions from the evidence you pull from your sources.

PhD programs are the usual route for people who want to learn to do research. The amount of time it takes to complete one depends on your previous education level and your location. In the US, the minimum is probably three years, if you've already got a Master's. Your work will have much more chance of being taken seriously if you have the credentials to back it up. If this is a route you're considering, you should get on it, because applications are usually due in December.

For your immediate issue, I would start with a style guide; figure out what the accepted style is for the field you think your work is closest to (in the humanities this is usually MLA or Chicago, I don't know about the sciences), and read about how to present information, paper format, etc, as well as citation standards and recommendations. Writing out your ideas in a clear, dispassionate manner with attention to and knowledge of academic standards, citing your sources (and you should carefully evaluate the worth of those sources, who is producing the information and how as well as who is publishing it), and knowing the appropriate format will help you a lot.


----------



## Isis (Sep 8, 2012)

Have you ever heard of or read a review article or a meta-analysis in the scientific literature? I think you would do well to go on the Public Library of Science (PLoS) website, which is a free, online journal that publishes research papers in a number of fields of biology. There are other journals that publish some or all of their research articles online ... any of those would be good to take a look at as well. Take a look at how authors writing review articles, which are articles that discuss the findings of a number of original research papers, handle other people's work and citations. Review papers often talk about a number of techniques or compare them, or talk about the significance of a few findings for the field (or subfield) as a whole. Meta-analyses combine the data from a number of research papers by different authors in order to draw new conclusions or determine which answer or approach was the correct one.

EDIT: lasm's comment about carefully evaluating the accuracy and reliability of your sources is a good one, and important for researchers and writers in every field. While you're getting ready to write up and present your research, I think it would be worthwhile for you to go back to the original sources used to do this research and evaluate them very critically. From the urgency of these posts it sounds like some of those sources might be political in nature. Many scientists bring a hefty dose of skepticism to political approaches to their science, as should you. In addition, when thinking critically about the sources, think of possible tests or experiments that you could do (or look up, to see if anyone else has done them before). A professor once said to me, "try to drive a stake through the heart of your hypothesis - you'll sleep better at night"


----------



## Max (Sep 8, 2012)

Hi lasm and isis. Thank you for the great responses.

One of the books I have read is more technical and is similar to a type of research paper but in a much less formal presentation.

The other books I am referencing for this are more like journeys.  This is why I feel it is so difficult to pare them down and yet still grasp the impact of the books to get people to overcome their biases and look deeper.

The way I overcame my biases was because of my knowledge of science and the scientific establishment due to a life of study in my own weird way. And this was on top of something incredible that happened to a family member of mine that caused me to take this seriously and see beyond what we have been taught to see.


Is anyone here familiar with someone writing a fictional piece that incorporated elements of fact?  Using elements of fiction to explain fact?  Has anyone seen someone cite sources in a work of fiction incorporating facts?

I feel the best way to convey this information would be in a documentary... but I have not been able to get my foot in the door with any documentary makers.

One possible solution to this, I felt, was to make a graphic novel.  I am a very visual person and I have artistic ability. I thought this would be in essence a low budget way of making a documentary.  I was also thinking it would be a good way to break the story up and possibly get people interested while still working on it as a sequential story.

Would a graphic novel of factual information help me avoid legalities at all?  Any examples of this anyone knows of?


----------



## Isis (Sep 8, 2012)

Now that you've mentioned the different types of works you're considering making, maybe you could also put some thought into who your audience is. Who do you want this information to reach? How do you want it to be received by people? Are you trying to get to students, policy makers, scientists, artists, the layman, the literary? Who you want to reach and what impact you want your work to have might help you make the decision between media.


----------



## Max (Sep 8, 2012)

Isis, yes.. I am trying to appeal to the the general population using the best methods I have to work with.  

Much of this subject matter has a pop-culture appeal... but the reason people haven't seen the reality of it is because they don't have the scientific knowledge to understand it. I want to try to bridge that gap.  

I am hoping word of mouth could carry this.  Then people could go to the sources I did and go through them more thoroughly.


----------



## Cran (Sep 8, 2012)

Max said:


> In my own way, yes. Believe it or not.  The problem is that there is no field for this topic of study.  I would have to battle the the entire scientific establishment to get this information through conventional channels as I feel you are proposing.


Well, you have two choices as far as that goes - convince the establishment (conventional channels, peer-reviewed journals, etc), or appeal directly to the public (the von Daniken route, Apollo hoaxers or conspiracy theorists, or perhaps U-Tube). Makes no difference to me either way. I didn't propose you complete any course, only that you start one, because that is the only way you'll get the tools and skills and learn how to use them. 

A style guide is not going to tell you how to pull your research together into a coherent whole; it is simply a reference tool for specific purposes - grammar, formatting, and mode of citation.  



> We get back to the same problem though.. there is nowhere near enough time for this.  I need to find some solution to avoid that entire course. I know this is a tough premise to accept.. and you may be right.. there may be no solution.
> 
> Is this why it takes so long for knowledge to spread much of the time because of how difficult it is to navigate the legalities of all this proprietary research? Or you have to pay heavily for it?


If there is nowhere near enough time to do what you want to do, then it's already too late, isn't it? 

What takes knowledge so long to spread is the need to determine that it is knowledge and not wishful thinking. 

If you want to convince the world of something you already know they will not want to know or even consider, then you can either stress out over your secret and remain unconvincing, or sit back and be one of those to say, "I knew it", when the Mayan calendar grinds to a stop, and Nibiru flies into the Moon, and the angels return from outer space to announce Armageddon.

The fastest way to spread information is social media - get a Facebook page, and start telling the world what you think they need to know. You can promote the books you want them to read.


----------



## Max (Sep 8, 2012)

> If there is nowhere near enough time to do what you want to do, then it's already too late, isn't it?



This is what I am trying to determine.  To go the conventional route would be really pushing the time scale.

If I can find some loophole or creative way to do this I might be able to get in under the wire. But there may be different repercussions the longer this goes. As more events unfold that people don't understand.



> What takes knowledge so long to spread is the need to determine that it is knowledge and not wishful thinking.



Did you know it took the Wright brothers years to convince the world what they had accomplished? They had reporters at their first flight and their flight was on page 8 I believe of some major newspaper.  Do you know what caused people to accept the Wright brothers accomplishment as legitimate years after that first flight?  The military signed a contract with them.

This information was a big factor in leading me on this journey.  It illustrates human nature and our present environment and this situation to a T. And that was all proven out through all my research.



> If you want to convince the world of something you already know they will not want to know or even consider, then you can either stress out over your secret and remain unconvincing, or sit back and be one of those to say, "I knew it", when the Mayan calendar grinds to a stop, and Nibiru flies into the Moon, and the angels return from outer space to announce Armageddon.



You are illustrating what I am up against right here.  You can discredit ideas just like you can discredit people. That is what is preventing people from seeing this information.  That is why it is so difficult to break through it. We have all been taught to be hyper skeptical.  How do you show people this?




> The fastest way to spread information is social media - get a Facebook page, and start telling the world what you think they need to know. You can promote the books you want them to read.



As i said though.. this information has such a stigma attached to it and is so dense.  Either way I am going to have to go in depth to explain why people should look at this information more closely. I am going to have to come up with SOME clever creative means of hooking people to get their attention to look closer.

I am not a persuasive writer at all for some reason. I don't know why that is.. but I am an extremely visual person and I'm not comfortable expressing myself with words.

But I can draw well.. I am very interested in film and I feel I can teach people how to understand the scientific concepts necessary for this with these abilities, the trick is dealing with the legalities. I am trying to look at it like a documentary in graphic novel form.



One way I was thinking of doing this was to try to make a "historical story" in graphic novel form.  So I would track all these different elements and the people involved. So it would be like many tiny mini biographies in one long saga. What about the legalities of this?


----------



## j.w.olson (Sep 8, 2012)

I am disappointed that I've read the entire discussion so far, and yet still don't know what your subject matter is. Since this is so urgent, are you willing to share your great insight with us? Or at least tell me what books you read? I must admit I'm curious. I'll also be more willing to help you find the answers you seek if I believe your claims are legitimate.


----------



## Cran (Sep 8, 2012)

Max said:


> This is what I am trying to determine.  To go the conventional route would be really pushing the time scale.
> 
> If I can find some loophole or creative way to do this I might be able to get in under the wire. But there may be different repercussions the longer this goes. As more events unfold that people don't understand.


What will happen if you don't get in under the wire?



> Did you know it took the Wright brothers years to convince the world what they had accomplished? They had reporters at their first flight and their flight was on page 8 I believe of some major newspaper.  Do you know what caused people to accept the Wright brothers accomplishment as legitimate years after that first flight?  The military signed a contract with them.


Yes, after it was tested and shown to be reproducible, and the implications of their invention were considered. In other words, after it was proven to be new knowledge and not wishful thinking. 



> You are illustrating what I am up against right here.  You can discredit ideas just like you can discredit people.


 I have cited three ideas which broadly share your own summary of your idea (controversial, widely ignored in conventional academia, obscure or unconvincing). Please point to exactly where I have discredited any controversial idea this in this discussion, or retract your accusation.



> One way I was thinking of doing this was to try to make a "historical story" in graphic novel form.  So I would track all these different elements and the people involved. So it would be like many tiny mini biographies in one long saga. What about the legalities of this?


1. Keep a detailed record of every source you draw from and include them in the credits or bibliography of your finished work.

2. If you intend to recreate more than ten percent of any existing works in any format, then you must first obtain a record of permission from the copyright holder (usually the creator), and of the publishing rights holder (usually the publisher). You can expect to pay a fee up front, and possibly royalties on any money earned from your recreation of their works.


----------



## Max (Sep 8, 2012)

I ran into this exact problem on another site.  People wanted to know how legitimate this was.  I offered to have a trusted representative of the group communicate with the relative of the deceased scientist involved in this saga as a means of showing the group how serious this was.

When the people saw it was real and not some delusion they suddenly lost interest for some strange reason and I was left apologizing to the relative when no one followed through at all. 

The problem is that just touching the surface of this info requires an immense amount of explanation.  Even the woman and her family member is just one small tiny element of something of immense scale.  

If I even mentioned what this involves people are so predisposed to be skeptical, I honestly jeopardize getting help here. As hard as this is, the only solution I see for people is to just accept the premise and carefully try to understand the circumstances presented in a vague way.


----------



## Jamie (Sep 8, 2012)

So it's aliens then.


----------



## Max (Sep 8, 2012)

Cran said:


> What will happen if you don't get in under the wire?



What will happen is a mystery.. but there are strong implications.  I really can't get into this because it is so complex. But this is why I need to convey this information. As a society we need to try to solve what is coming and prevent it if possible.  There seems to be a strong pattern of what is happening tied to what I discovered.



> Yes, after it was tested and shown to be reproducible, and the implications of their invention were considered. In other words, after it was proven to be new knowledge and not wishful thinking.



It didn't need to take that long.  Imagine if someone had actively suppressed it how long it might take to be accepted. Imagine if very powerful people played up our own natural skepticism.



> I have cited three ideas which broadly share your own summary of your idea (controversial, widely ignored in conventional academia, obscure or unconvincing). Please point to exactly where I have discredited any controversial idea this in this discussion, or retract your accusation.



I absolutely did not mean to claim you discredited anyone. I meant that your response with the outlandish examples you stated shows how "conspiracy theories" etc have been discredited as a whole and we are so hyper skeptical when we sense anything falls into that category. 

If you want me to clarify my statements more in some way I would gladly do that... not at all my intent.




> 1. Keep a detailed record of every source you draw from and include them in the credits or bibliography of your finished work.
> 
> 2. If you intend to recreate more than ten percent of any existing works in any format, then you must first obtain a record of permission from the copyright holder (usually the creator), and of the publishing rights holder (usually the publisher). You can expect to pay a fee up front, and possibly royalties on any money earned from your recreation of their works.



Do you know if it is necessary to get permission for any kind of biographical information in a non-fiction work or something that mixed fiction and non-fiction?


----------



## Cran (Sep 8, 2012)

Max said:


> What will happen is a mystery.. but there are strong implications.  I really can't get into this because it is so complex. But this is why I need to convey this information. As a society we need to try to solve what is coming and prevent it if possible.  There seems to be a strong pattern of what is happening tied to what I discovered.


Well, the only controversial ideas I can think of that fit this description are AGW*/forced climate change, peak resources/overpopulation/overconsumption, and illuminati/global control via secret cabal. 



> It didn't need to take that long.  Imagine if someone had actively suppressed it how long it might take to be accepted? Imagine if very powerful people played up our own natural skepticism?


It always takes as long as it takes. Any invention with military potential is going to be developed and tested quietly rather than openly, especially at a time when Europe and parts of Africa were falling in and out of war at the drop of a diplomat. 



> Do you know if it is necessary to get permission for any kind of biographical information in a non-fiction work or something that mixed fiction and non-fiction?


You need to get permission from the source of that information if it is recorded in any format and is more than ten percent of the source document or work, unless the information is on the public record (for which you might need FOI** applications), or in the public domain (for which copyright is waived). 

Regardless, you can choose whether to produce an authorised (with permission of the person or heirs) or unauthorised (without permission) biography. 


AGW* - Anthropogenic Global Warming
FOI** - Freedom of Information


----------



## Max (Sep 8, 2012)

Cran, if you or someone as knowledgeable as yourself wants to discuss this info in private to help find a solution I would gladly do that. 

All I ask is that if you aren't interested in digging deeper, to just keep it between you and me and not comment on it anymore. Like I said I am just worried about skepticism causing people to ignore this altogether, without digging deeper before I can show the legitimacy of it.


----------



## Cran (Sep 8, 2012)

*Max*, it's probably best if I keep my involvement to discussing the general and practical aspects of the situation; the actual subject doesn't matter as far as that goes. You know better than anyone what you have, and what strengths you have in presenting it. 

Whichever path you choose - critical peer review, popular press, social media, personal website, graphic novel, or film - is going to include a number of obstacles, most of which will involve time and/or money (there's an inverse relationship between those two - the more you have of one, the less you need of the other). Which obstacles you believe you can overcome will help you decide on the best path to take. There are no easy options; only less difficult ones.


----------



## Max (Sep 8, 2012)

I just wanted that to be known, if anyone who has the ability to help was interested.  But revealing this info to people that don't have the knowledge to help just causes me to lose more time.  You also seemed very trustworthy which is also a major concern.

You are right though in that this situation is what it is.. without all the info it can really just be more lost time especially because of the incredible amount of questions and implications all of this creates.. it is truly truly mind boggling. Which is actually why this information hasn't become known already.


----------



## Nickleby (Sep 8, 2012)

If it were me, I'd create a graphic novel and present it as fiction. If people are willing to accept the ideas in it, the ideas will spread. If not, your research will go for naught, which I suspect is what will happen anyway. Not that I don't believe your theory (since I don't know what it is), but I know how people react to things too far outside their experience.

To help bolster your theory, you might include a bibliography in your novel. That way you indicate that the story has some basis in fact, and you give your audience the tools to explore the topic further.

Since you ask about copyright issues, remember the lawsuit over _The Da Vinci Code_. Brown basically stole ideas that Baigent, Lincoln, and Leigh had developed. Because you can't copyright an idea, though, he won.

My own feeling is that people won't listen. Climate change has been a scientific issue for about four decades now, but the energy industry has spread enough disinformation that there are people who don't think it's even happening. You can expect resistance and incredulity to almost any theory that doesn't follow the "common wisdom."


----------



## Max (Sep 8, 2012)

Hi Nickleby.  Thanks for the response, those are some great ideas. I have thought about doing it as a fictional piece but there are so many unknown gaps in this.  It could be really disjointed. If I fill in the gaps then I am worried the impact of the real message could get diluted.

I also want to include a lot of science info to try to educate people so they can see why this is real. Much of this would be science info that only these people who wrote these books provided so I may need to include them and their work somehow.

I am sure there is a way to do it..  but not having experience doing this it's like trying to navigate a minefield.

What I really wonder is how a movie like Oliver Stone's JFK gets made.


----------



## Cran (Sep 9, 2012)

Max said:


> What I really wonder is how a movie like Oliver Stone's JFK gets made.


Mostly with lots of time and money; specifically in this case - over 25 years of unanswered questions and postulated events, and a movie maker with an established reputation. A-List actors also cost.


----------



## j.w.olson (Sep 9, 2012)

If you are trying to find people who understand the science to help you, you might want to say what branch of science it is. While I'm just a writer/English teacher, my wife is an astrophysicist (masters so far, going for phd) and I've become something of an amateur astronomer. But I don't know if you need astrophysics, engineering, ecology, etc. Or if you're not sharing anyway, it may not matter.


----------



## Max (Sep 9, 2012)

Cran said:


> Mostly with lots of time and money; specifically in this case - over 25 years of unanswered questions and postulated events, and a movie maker with an established reputation. A-List actors also cost.



What I wonder about most though is the legality of how they dealt with someone like Clay Shaw in the movie.  I would think it would be impossible to make a movie like that because of the legal aspects for implicating people. But as you say if you have enough money and lawyers on your side you can probably deal with it.  

I wonder if they wrote scenes a certain way to avoid these legal issues though?  Like if in a scene someone is voicing a theory about Shaw in a certain way allowing them to get away with it. But I haven't seen the movie for awhile to remember exactly how things played out.  

It just seemed like they implicated a lot of people.  Maybe it was because they were using testimony from the courts as their source material they got away with a lot of that?


----------



## Max (Sep 9, 2012)

j.w.olson, when I get into writing it I  might need some help like that.  The devil is always in the details.  This saga covers all areas of science in some way it seems.  Is your wife open-minded about different seemingly outlandish ideas in science at all?


----------



## Cran (Sep 9, 2012)

Max said:


> What I wonder about most though is the legality of how they dealt with someone like Clay Shaw in the movie.  I would think it would be impossible to make a movie like that because of the legal aspects for implicating people. But as you say if you have enough money and lawyers on your side you can probably deal with it.
> 
> I wonder if they wrote scenes a certain way to avoid these legal issues though?  Like if in a scene someone is voicing a theory about Shaw in a certain way allowing them to get away with it. But I haven't seen the movie for awhile to remember exactly how things played out.
> 
> It just seemed like they implicated a lot of people.  Maybe it was because they were using testimony from the courts as their source material they got away with a lot of that?


Court transcripts are on the public record. Specific documents or transcripts may be embargoed or censored, but embargoes are time-limited. None of that prevents speculation based on a real event; a court hearing is a real event. 

On the other hand, if you intend to implicate someone in any form of wrongdoing who has not already been charged with that wrongdoing, or to impugn someone's reputation or character, then you run up against defamation laws. In defamation law, the truth is not a sufficient defense.


----------



## Max (Sep 9, 2012)

What if you suspect a public figure is a disinfo agent?  Do you know if suggesting something like that is punishable?  This is where things get really perilous.

Are there ways you might be able to imply something like this in a vague way that you could avoid legal issues... or is that something a jury could be asked to decide what your intent was?


----------



## Cran (Sep 9, 2012)

Max said:


> What if you suspect a public figure is a disinfo agent?


 Public figures are common targets for accusations and character attacks. 



> Do you know if suggesting something like that is punishable?


 Yes. A public figure has as much right as any citizen to bring a defamation suit before the court. This has happened many times in many countries. Most are settled by public apologies and payments of large amounts of money; or some form of punitive sentence if the convicted defamer is poor. 



> This is where things get really perilous. Are there ways you might be able to imply something like this in a vague way that you could avoid legal issues...


You can try, but it will harm your case if it comes out in trial. 



> or is that something a jury could be asked to decide what your intent was?


If it goes to a jury trial, then your intent will be one of the issues a jury would be asked to consider.

If you have evidence that someone is involved in wrongdoing, then your only legal course of action is to present that evidence to the proper authority. In the case of local crimes, that means the local police, cross-border crimes or conspiracies against the state means federal authorities.


----------



## Max (Sep 9, 2012)

Maybe the key is just showing the facts why I feel these people should be suspected as disinfo agents and others are able to make their determination as well.

But I wonder if there are still ways you can get sued even for presenting the facts in a certain way because of what they imply?


----------



## j.w.olson (Sep 9, 2012)

[sent as a PM instead, changed my mind.]


----------



## Arcopitcairn (Sep 9, 2012)

Max said:


> Cran, if you or someone as knowledgeable as yourself wants to discuss this info in private to help find a solution I would gladly do that.
> 
> All I ask is that if you aren't interested in digging deeper, to just keep it between you and me and not comment on it anymore. Like I said I am just worried about skepticism causing people to ignore this altogether, without digging deeper before I can show the legitimacy of it.



Interestingly enough, after reading through this entire thread, I find that I possess some, if not all the answers you are looking for. I'm confident that I can help you with your problems. Unfortunately, some of the legal and societal processes are so complex, I feel that I may be doing you an injustice, not to mention an injustice to everyone here on this fine site, if I just casually start blurting out important information without knowing first what the practical application of your project is. I also must verify that you are serious about your project, and not some kind of lunatic. I cannot, in good faith, be expected to just pass out this sort of loaded information to you without details.

At your convenience, please feel free to private message me with all your theories and ideas. Only then, after careful consideration, will I be able to determine what particular advice and information you require. Obviously, time is a factor.


----------



## Max (Sep 9, 2012)

Hi Arcopitacairn.  Thank you for the response and giving this real consideration. That is a very kind and open minded thing to do.  

One concern I have is that with Cran he had shown me that he had a high degree of knowledge of writing and the legalities and also seemed to be a highly trusted member of the board, where as in your case that isn't readily apparent. I am not saying that isn't the case just that it's something I am not aware of.

I'm not sure how to deal with this situation, though.  I also hope I don't sound like an ingrate. I am just trying to deal with the situation the best I can manage.

If anyone has any possible solutions please let me know.


----------



## Cran (Sep 9, 2012)

Max said:


> Maybe the key is just showing the facts why I feel these people should be suspected as disinfo agents and others are able to make their determination as well.
> 
> But I wonder if there are still ways you can get sued even for presenting the facts in a certain way because of what they imply?


Whether it's an individual, group of individuals, corporation or corporations, one or many government or non-government bodies, they are singly and collectively legal entities, and have the right to bring cases to court. Legal experts will determine whether your presentation sufficiently identifies any legal entity to render you liable. 

It's beginning to look like you need to seek proper legal advice in your jurisdiction before putting yourself in harm's way.


----------



## Max (Sep 9, 2012)

Cran, that is just one very small part of this whole saga.  It isn't imperative, though.

There may be other ways I can make that point, as well.


----------



## Nickleby (Sep 9, 2012)

Max said:


> Hi Nickleby.  Thanks for the response, those are some great ideas. I have thought about doing it as a fictional piece but there are so many unknown gaps in this.  It could be really disjointed. If I fill in the gaps then I am worried the impact of the real message could get diluted.



The beauty of fiction is that you can fill in the gaps with things you know are not true. You can change the names and appearances of real people, call them fictional characters, and have them say anything. A real person can't sue you just because a character might have some traits in common with him, or is shown doing something he denies ever doing. In fact, he'd be doing you a favor by drawing attention to your project.

Fictionalizing your narrative may "dilute" the information you're trying to get out, but if it's a choice between a diluted message and none at all, it's a pretty clear choice. My two cents.


----------



## Max (Sep 9, 2012)

I totally agree with you, Nickleby,  Another alternative I was thinking of was to try to mix these elements in some way.

Since I am doing a graphic novel I can do separate issues in different ways.  I am wondering if that might allow me to do some really really creative things to make this work, if you know what I mean.  But that gets into other tricky areas.


----------



## Max (Sep 21, 2012)

I'm reading some kind of critical thesis paper right now in which someone is dissecting a graphic novel.. it seems like they are giving a lot of the story away and it is on a website.  

I am wondering why this isn't considered a breach of fair use.  But maybe it is and because it isn't something making a lot of money they wouldn't seek damages?

Taking Off the Mask - Watchmen Deconstructed: Chapter Four: Watchmen's Virtuosity


----------



## Cran (Sep 21, 2012)

It's a university undergrad thesis, undertaken with permission and the involvement or overview of the publishers and rights holders concerned. 



> I’d like to thank the following people for their support, assistance and input over the last year: Amy Donenfield, Paul Levitz at *DC Comics*, Gary Groth at *Fantagraphics*, Doug Atkinson, Phil Straub at *the Museum of Words and Pictures*, Steve Flower, Bill at *Earth Prime Comics*, Joseph Reed, Andre Dogan, and Justin Caplicki.
> 
> Special Thanks:
> To Remy-Luc Auberjonois, Michael Roberts, Benjamin Stout and Damian Hess for keeping me sane on a daily basis.
> To John Johnson at *Knight’s Quest Comics* for all of his time and patience- and his comics.


-Acknowledgements 

These, and others, will also be included in the References section at the end of the paper. 

Studies like this one, and indeed standard reviews do tend to reference the subject material - give parts of the story away - but they are not re-telling the story, nor do the legitimate ones exceed the limit ranges set under _Fair Use. _


----------



## Max (Sep 21, 2012)

Thanks Cran.  Sorry, I hadn't read through it all yet. I didn't expect to find that he had gotten permission. 

Do you think he spoke with them before he even attempted to write this or do you think he wrote it then had them "sign off" on it afterwards?


----------



## Nickleby (Sep 21, 2012)

Note that _Watchmen_ came out in 1986-7. That's 25 years ago. At this point spoilers are almost superfluous. In other words, if you're reading a paper on _Watchmen,_ the writer assumes that you've read the work in question. If you have any interest in the field, you've read it already.

 It's like someone analyzing the mythic qualities in _Star Wars_ (basically stolen from Joseph Campbell's work). It wouldn't make sense to talk about the movie without giving away the plot. You wouldn't understand the paper if you hadn't seen the movie.


----------



## Max (Sep 21, 2012)

I agree, Nickelby.  But from my understanding if the copyright holder wanted to take issue with it they still could.  I could be wrong though.  From my understanding if you damage the books sales potential then you could be in trouble.  

Chances are in most cases you would be ok - the people wouldn't take issue with it - but you are still open to it.


----------



## Cran (Sep 22, 2012)

Max said:


> Thanks Cran.  Sorry, I hadn't read through it all yet. I didn't expect to find that he had gotten permission.
> 
> Do you think he spoke with them before he even attempted to write this or do you think he wrote it then had them "sign off" on it afterwards?


One of the reasons students have a year to write a thesis is that most of that time will be spent in direct research and contacting the people involved. Not too many people waste time writing up their research without first having the inside information and the go-ahead to do it. There's enough to do with standard edits without having to add complete re-writes.



> But from my understanding if the copyright holder wanted to take issue  with it they still could.  I could be wrong though.  From my  understanding if you damage the books sales potential then you could be  in trouble.
> 
> Chances are in most cases you would be ok - the people wouldn't take issue with it - but you are still open to it.


It depends on the context. If it didn't, literary, film and theatre critics would not be able to do their jobs. A bad review damages sales, and bad reviews happen all the time.


----------



## Max (Sep 22, 2012)

Cran said:


> It depends on the context. If it didn't, literary, film and theatre critics would not be able to do their jobs. A bad review damages sales, and bad reviews happen all the time.



That's true, Cran.  The problem in my situation though is that I may have to avoid any potential risk like that because of the controversial nature of what I am doing.  Someone could use something like this to prevent this info from getting out. That's why this project is like trying to navigate a minefield.


----------



## Cran (Sep 22, 2012)

Agreed.


----------



## Max (Sep 22, 2012)

I am wondering if I can use this movie, Primary Colors,  as a guide in how to present the information I need to present.

Film `Primary Color' Irresponsible In The Way It Mixes Fact, Fiction - Morning Call



> [h=1]Film `Primary Color' Irresponsible In The Way It Mixes Fact, Fiction[/h]



I don't feel the ethical issues are problematic in my situation though because sometimes it is a necessity to fight fire with fire. And if I am extremely off base then people will just chalk it up to conspiracy nonsense anyway.

But I don't know if this will work though because to tell my story I need to include information from some of the characters books. If I don't then it's likely no one will take it seriously enough to dig deeper and find the info they need to really understand this.


----------



## Nickleby (Sep 22, 2012)

Max said:


> I am wondering if I can use this movie, Primary Colors,  as a guide in how to present the information I need to present.



_Primary Colors_ was a book before it was a movie. Try to find a copy and see what kind of legal disclaimers it has.


----------



## Max (Sep 23, 2012)

Thanks Nickleby.  That is a great idea.  I have been reading about it.  This type of book is called a 





> [h=3]_Roman_ à _clef_ - French for "novel with a key"


[/h]
Sometimes the author will provide a separate and secret key to understanding the story, like a guide to who the characters are.

I am wondering if I could manage something like this to give the missing pieces of the puzzle.


----------



## Nickleby (Sep 23, 2012)

Max said:


> Sometimes the author will provide a separate and secret key to understanding the story, like a guide to who the characters are.
> 
> I am wondering if I could manage something like this to give the missing pieces of the puzzle.



With _Primary Colors,_ you don't really need a key. Once you realize that the central character is a stand-in for Bill Clinton, you can work out who the other people are supposed to represent.

You could do something similar. Have one character who is instantly recognizable, even if fictionalized. The reader, if so inclined, can figure out who the other characters are supposed to represent, given that "key." People have been doing it for centuries.


----------



## Max (Sep 24, 2012)

That's true, the problem in my case is that the project is so different than Primary Colors My concern is that I can't tell the story _without_ the people being recognized. The characters are so obvious. In politics you can paint with broad strokes.

Maybe if I tell this story in different pieces though I can do something like this..

The secret key in my case would be to provide the science that I couldn't provide in the roman a clef, because I can't indicate who the actual scientists are.


----------



## Max (Nov 29, 2012)

Cran, are you still around? 

In my story I have several real world characters who have made discoveries about the same subject or subjects that tie together somehow.

Do you know if there is any legal reason why I couldn't make a fictional character in a fictional story that makes these real world discoveries that these people made in the real world? This way I wouldn't need to incorporate so many different characters... it would allow me to simplify the story much more.  But to me it seems like taking their information without citing the source. But is that not an issue because it is supposed to be a fictional story?


----------

