# My true love



## Mistique (Feb 10, 2015)

Romeo and Juliette is said to be the most romantic love story ever to have been written and Romeo the most perfect lover. Ever valentine – and not just at valentine – we girls (well, the guys too, but it’s us girls who get targeted the most) get bombarded with movies, songs and poems glorifying this true love that can’t be matched by anything else. A love that is worth dying for, now how can love get any better than that, right? I however tend to disagree. I think Shakespeare, when he wrote that story, or probably more accurately the rest of us, when we glorified that play – and it was just a play - made a very decent attempt at ruining love for the rest of us. This may sound a bit surprising, but I actually believe this to be true. It makes young girls – like the one still hidden deep within my heart – long for that kind of true love that comes in the shape of a guy climbing our balconies to speak heart melting words. It leads to disappointment every single time as in the real world those overly romantic gestures don’t happen. In the real world – where I have to live every single day rather than in Verona centuries ago – love comes in the shape of a guy who doesn’t always know the right thing to say, who doesn’t know the first thing about poetry let alone speak in verse and who works so hard at making a life for us that he can’t always spend as much time with me as I – and him too – would like. My guy is no Romeo. His love however is far more real than Romeo’s – who when it comes down to it is just a character in a play – can ever be. Its stories like Romeo and Juliette that have created an imagine in my mind – and I am guessing I am not the only one – that make me risk not recognizing the guy standing in front of me - who loves me for who I am - as my true love. So this valentine I could care less about Romeo, because I will be in the arms of my perfect lover who considers me worth living for. Love can’t get any better than that, right?


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## InstituteMan (Feb 10, 2015)

That is both sweet and wise, Misti.

As a father of daughters, I have to add that I have a pretty healthy aversion to young men climbing to a balcony with heart melting words. Sure, I hope there's a 'spark' there for my girls and their fellows (but I do NOT want any details about it), but over-the-top displays of affection smack of overcompensating.


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## Plasticweld (Feb 10, 2015)

I was lucky that my first love lived just up the street from me, she had light brown hair and blue eyes and had the prettiest smile.  I fell madly in love with her, I even named my daughter after  her. Years later we both ended up on facebook, I sent her a note and let her know that she had been my first true love and that I had named my daughter after her.  She was shocked and she asked just how could have been so in love with her to do that.   I replied it was simple, I remember after we broke up, I saw her walking across the gym floor and my heart hurt because it was broken, and knew I would never be the same.  We were both in the 4th grade at the time.  

Love is a powerful thing, I never give it an age or a circumstance, I would have to be a hypocrite to do so.  All I can say is that Mr InstituteMan... You are in for a heap of trouble!


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## InstituteMan (Feb 10, 2015)

Plasticweld said:


> All I can say is that Mr InstituteMan... You are in for a heap of trouble!



Yes, I am--but the fellows are in an even bigger heap of trouble, and they're eager to leap in.


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## TJ1985 (Feb 10, 2015)

I totally agree, and have a different perspective on the same problem. I'm a guy, as my avatar attests. I'm expected to have a lute with which to serenade my truest love, and to climb her balcony to prove my passion is true. I'm losing weight, and have lost a LOT, but I'm still too fat to be shinnying up a balcony for a girl. I've met some gals who had me climbing the walls, but that was because of the mind games. 

There's a lot of the love stuff that throws me for a loop, and the stereotypes are the worst part. I've got a Telecaster and an old amp I could rig to run off a car battery, so I might be able to compete with the lute, but if I won't climb a tree to get my favorite artificial fishing lure back... 

On a similar note, gals all talk about wanting a sensitive man who's mature, but half of us are judged by our ability to climb like a primate to demonstrate our love? That's got to be love because it's too illogical to be anything else. 

Stereotypes, and ideals garnered from works designed to entertain. R&J isn't a how-to manual, it's entertainment. So many people forget that. 

Love is like a puzzle for which few pieces fit well. I'm grateful that there are women in the world like the OP who know the difference between love and displays of meaningless influence. It stinks that I haven't found one of 'em yet, but I'm keepin' my eyes open.


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## InstituteMan (Feb 10, 2015)

Remember: in Romeo and Juliet the young lovers died. That sounds like a pretty bad outcome to me. I haven't climbed anything other than a few flights of stairs for my wife, but we are both still drawing breath.


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## am_hammy (Feb 10, 2015)

I won't really get into my personal views on love because they are much too depressing for a 24 year old to have, but I have a gripe.

What bugs me is that I see people with this "I can't live without you" mentality and just like Romeo and Juliette, they ended up dying for one another because they felt like they could not survive. It's just sad because their love died with them. There was no one to carry on any memory of what they shared in the end. I would like to think that if two people were together, and one of them passed on from the world that they would want the person they loved to continue on living. I dunno, tough life choices for those two.

I agree that our culture, media, books, whatever it is that we consume to ease our minds, can nearly destroy it. There's such a screwed up view of love today in the world, sometimes it's very hard to believe what anyone says anymore. I think in today's culture as well, sometimes it seems that the only reason why someone says "I love you" is to gain something. Shouldn't love at least try to be selfless? Shouldn't it at least try to give just to give, without expecting anything?

Heavy thoughts for a heavy subject. Love is really freaking heavy. >.<


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## Crowley K. Jarvis (Feb 10, 2015)

Studies nowadays   actually seem to suggest that feelings of attachment and love mostly stem from biological triggers in our body. 

Actions and words actually have much less of an effect than we tend to think. 

On the flipside, test subjects  who were put in constant long conversation and eye contact experienced feelings of love, regardless of the other factors.  Pretty strong ones too. But I'm not really a scientist. I just read too much of that stuff. 

I've always been bothered by that stereotype. That men will act a certain way, look a certain way, and all have a certain build.  Even If I keep working out, at best I'll just resemble a basketball player. Won't ever be Hercules. I can't rock a mustache or any facial hair. Doesn't work. And I don't enjoy doing 'manly' things.

Actually, if a girl has those crazy expectations, I'm not too fond of sticking around for very long. Sadly, in my own experience, as well as a few others that have posted of their love trouble, have experienced that most young girls have that version of their dream guy, and have everything fantasized and planned out in their head.

It's sad. I don't want one of those girls. And yes, how I wish the media and fiction too didn't stimulate that thinking.


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## Mistique (Feb 11, 2015)

InstituteMan said:


> That is both sweet and wise, Misti.
> 
> As a father of daughters, I have to add that I have a pretty healthy aversion to young men climbing to a balcony with heart melting words. Sure, I hope there's a 'spark' there for my girls and their fellows (but I do NOT want any details about it), but over-the-top displays of affection smack of overcompensating.



You should have an aversion to it, I imagine Julliette's dad wasn't smiling at the end of the story


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## Mistique (Feb 11, 2015)

TJ1985 said:


> I totally agree, and have a different perspective on the same problem. I'm a guy, as my avatar attests. I'm expected to have a lute with which to serenade my truest love, and to climb her balcony to prove my passion is true. I'm losing weight, and have lost a LOT, but I'm still too fat to be shinnying up a balcony for a girl. I've met some gals who had me climbing the walls, but that was because of the mind games.
> 
> There's a lot of the love stuff that throws me for a loop, and the stereotypes are the worst part. I've got a Telecaster and an old amp I could rig to run off a car battery, so I might be able to compete with the lute, but if I won't climb a tree to get my favorite artificial fishing lure back...
> 
> ...



I am sorry to hear you haven't found love yet. I am convinced that there are loads of woman out there who appreciate a sensitive guy, but they are usually the shy ones (like me) who don't look like a supermodel (like me) and who've had their heart broken more often than they like (like me) and that makes them a little weary of love and therefor harder to reach (but not impossible).


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## Boofy (Feb 11, 2015)

Ammy! You have inspired me to rant! ;3

I think that love is entirely self motivated. Selfless doesn't exist, let alone selfless love. Civilised as we are, we still run on predetermined settings and that isn't an over-ridable feature of our humanity, no matter how conscious we think we are. You can't choose who to love, can you? We're like dogs, running into glass patio doors repeatedly, never understanding why we can't get into the house... There's a cat like, _right_ there.

Love feels good. It feels good because it serves a biological purpose. Suicide serves no biological purpose. Romeo and Juliet exhibited a completely unrealistic emotional response unless, of course, they were already mentally frail. To my knowledge they were never portrayed as such. 

 Lemmings don't run off of cliffs. Disney film crew members chased them over the rocks, letting them tumble to a furry end for the purposes of entertainment. That's what people have done for years. Film things, write things... put a shiny sheen on them and spin them for a profit.

You're right, anyway. Just like pornography ruins sex, the propagation of love stories ruins love for all of us.

I do _choose_ to try to believe in altruism, y'know. _Intellectual_ love might even be selfless. If you value somebody for their personal qualities that highly, I think it's at least possible you'd consider putting your life at risk for them. The raw feeling though? No, I just don't buy it. The raw feeling of love is rooted in selfishness. If that significant other was already dead, you wouldn't go the same way on impulse. That's not how human impulses work. At least, not healthy ones. Intellectual love stems from that raw emotion, so does the concept of monogamy. However, reactionary suicide does not.

Animals will never be truly altruistic or selfless, but we at least have the _potential_ to be. Instances of animal altruism have been disproved on closer examination. I still think that humans are very much the same as animals personally, but my double think allows me to be both sceptical of love and other emotions and yet enjoy them in their entirety. Hurray! :3

Aw, I hate heavy talk, but I had to put in here. It's just too interesting.


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## Mistique (Feb 11, 2015)

InstituteMan said:


> Remember: in Romeo and Juliet the young lovers died. That sounds like a pretty bad outcome to me. I haven't climbed anything other than a few flights of stairs for my wife, but we are both still drawing breath.



Yeah, I would agree that surviving is the prefered option 

In a way Romeo and Juliette had it easy. Falling head over heals in love when you are a teenager is easy and because they died young they didn't have to do the hard work that it takes to let that love survive and florish in the many years after.


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## Mistique (Feb 11, 2015)

am_hammy said:


> I won't really get into my personal views on love because they are much too depressing for a 24 year old to have, but I have a gripe.
> 
> What bugs me is that I see people with this "I can't live without you" mentality and just like Romeo and Juliette, they ended up dying for one another because they felt like they could not survive. It's just sad because their love died with them. There was no one to carry on any memory of what they shared in the end. I would like to think that if two people were together, and one of them passed on from the world that they would want the person they loved to continue on living. I dunno, tough life choices for those two.
> 
> ...



I completely agree. Love is anything but selfish, or it should be in my eyes. Its nice when a guy takes me out to dinner and I enjoy that (as I hope he will too), but I get all warm inside when he takes me for a walk in my favourite park when I know he really would have preferred to just sit at home and watch tv as he is tired of working hard, but he wants to make me smile so he walks with me anyway. I go with him to the new years party (of the vollunteer job he does) which would normally bore me out of my mind, because I hate those kind of parties, but I stand there anyway beaming with pride because he's one of the vollunteers that gets honored for doing a good job.


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## Mistique (Feb 11, 2015)

Crowley K. Jarvis said:


> Studies nowadays   actually seem to suggest that feelings of attachment and love mostly stem from biological triggers in our body.
> 
> Actions and words actually have much less of an effect than we tend to think.
> 
> ...



For what its worth... those young girls tend to wise up sooner or later and realise that their dream guy isn't the hero in the love story, but the guy next door


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## Mistique (Feb 11, 2015)

Boofy said:


> Ammy! You have inspired me to rant! ;3
> 
> I think that love is entirely self motivated. Selfless doesn't exist, let alone selfless love. Civilised as we are, we still run on predetermined settings and that isn't an over-ridable feature of our humanity, no matter how conscious we think we are. You can't choose who to love, can you? We're like dogs, running into glass patio doors repeatedly, never understanding why we can't get into the house... There's a cat like, _right_ there.
> 
> ...



I do agree that love is never entirely selfless and neither is any other human act. In the very least we act selfless, because it makes us feel good to make that other person feel good (so it still serves us in some way).


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## midnightpoet (Feb 11, 2015)

When we are young, our hormones lie to us, telling us things we want to hear and love gets confused with lust.  Stories about princesses being rescued by knights in shining armor or studly he-men saving the world are fine unless you start to believe them.  When we find out the truth, we get depressed and/or angry.  

Mistique, glad you found your true love.  I'll be married 36 years this spring, and while we still spat and probably never will understand each other, love is sometimes all we've got.:biggrin:


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## am_hammy (Feb 11, 2015)

Boofy said:


> Ammy! You have inspired me to rant! ;3
> 
> I think that love is entirely self motivated. Selfless doesn't exist, let alone selfless love. Civilised as we are, we still run on predetermined settings and that isn't an over-ridable feature of our humanity, no matter how conscious we think we are. You can't choose who to love, can you? We're like dogs, running into glass patio doors repeatedly, never understanding why we can't get into the house... There's a cat like, _right_ there.
> 
> ...



Hmmm, I think you can't necessarily choose where your heart or mind will take you in the course of romantic love, but I think you can choose to love someone, like, let's say its your father, or mother. Honestly they birthed you and all but you don't have to love them. What if they did something bad to you? Just because they've been determined to be your parents does that mean you have no choice as to whether or not you want to love them? As far as predetermined settings, I will agree that they are there but you know us humans. Never want to follow the rules You bring up interesting things my dear. =p

And yeah, I'm not saying that selfless love exists. I think that it should be though. I'm not sure what kind is really out there anymore. And I don't think that Love is arbitrary. It has many facets and can make you crazy if you can't approach it both logically _and _emotionally. That's the part I find tedious to find a happy median with.

I think in certain respects it is selfish now that you put it in that way, but I guess maybe it's the motivation behind the selfishness if that makes sense. People always use selfishness as a negative word so I guess that's why I don't try to associate it with Love because I have seen what a selfish love for personal gain can do. And it's the warped mentality of the personal gain that is dangerous. 

I guess I'm just hoping for a better reason for Love, but like I said before it's so screwed up these days it makes it difficult to even categorize it. But then again, why should something like that even be categorized ya know? 

Alas, this talk of love is deep.

I know you don't like the heavy talk but I'm glad I motivated you to say something. You make valid points. It's making me think  ^__^




Mistique said:


> I completely agree. Love is anything but selfish, or it should be in my eyes. Its nice when a guy takes me out to dinner and I enjoy that (as I hope he will too), but I get all warm inside when he takes me for a walk in my favourite park when I know he really would have preferred to just sit at home and watch tv as he is tired of working hard, but he wants to make me smile so he walks with me anyway. I go with him to the new years party (of the vollunteer job he does) which would normally bore me out of my mind, because I hate those kind of parties, but I stand there anyway beaming with pride because he's one of the vollunteers that gets honored for doing a good job.




That's where the partnership aspect comes in. Although in nature I guess it could be considered that each of you is selfish in their own regard because of what the other would rather do. I mean, truly every choice we make is selfish. However, because you both choose to compromise or try to be there for another in that way, I think that your reasoning behind what you choose in the long run can possibly make you happier.


I will say though the selfless vs selfish debate is a tough nugget. Puts you all over the place.


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## Mistique (Feb 11, 2015)

midnightpoet said:


> When we are young, our hormones lie to us, telling us things we want to hear and love gets confused with lust.  Stories about princesses being rescued by knights in shining armor or studly he-men saving the world are fine unless you start to believe them.  When we find out the truth, we get depressed and/or angry.
> 
> Mistique, glad you found your true love.  I'll be married 36 years this spring, and while we still spat and probably never will understand each other, love is sometimes all we've got.:biggrin:



Sounds like you found you're true love too. Live would be boring without a little commotion every now and then


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## Mistique (Feb 11, 2015)

am_hammy said:


> Hmmm, I think you can't necessarily choose where your heart or mind will take you in the course of romantic love, but I think you can choose to love someone, like, let's say its your father, or mother. Honestly they birthed you and all but you don't have to love them. What if they did something bad to you? Just because they've been determined to be your parents does that mean you have no choice as to whether or not you want to love them? As far as predetermined settings, I will agree that they are there but you know us humans. Never want to follow the rules You bring up interesting things my dear. =p
> 
> And yeah, I'm not saying that selfless love exists. I think that it should be though. I'm not sure what kind is really out there anymore. And I don't think that Love is arbitrary. It has many facets and can make you crazy if you can't approach it both logically _and _emotionally. That's the part I find tedious to find a happy median with.
> 
> ...




Yeah, that gets complicated. Too complicated for me, so I prefer to just believe in love and leave it at that


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## aj47 (Feb 11, 2015)

In my experience, love is:

partnership/sharing - if you aren't in it together, how can you truly say it's love?
awareness - the knowledge of, and respect for, one another's imperfections.
trust - both of you knowing you have each other's back.
communication - speaking and hearing, and the willingness to try to understand each other's perspective.
respect - this should go without saying, but I have seen too many relationships that lacked this. They tend to unravel.
choice - if you have no choice but to be with someone--that is not love, that is indenture.
empathy - this should also be a no-brainer. If you can't feel for one another--it isn't love.
Love is not:

sex/lust - really.  Just because you're sexing with someone is not an indication that they love you. Or you, them.
attraction - for that matter, just because you find someone hot, doesn't mean it's love.
possession/ownership - slavery is about owning people; love is not even on the same map.
jealousy/control - see possession/ownership above. Jealousy is about controlling and keeping something to yourself. Totally inappropriate.


Also, a word about jealousy vs. envy. When you want to be with someone and they're with someone else--whether it's a lunch date, a movie, or whatever--it could be either. Envy is when you want to be that person your love is with; jealousy is when you want to restrict your love to being with you, and only you. Envy is reasonable--jealousy is not.

Neither list is comprehensive, but I think I got the big ones.


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## Morkonan (Feb 11, 2015)

Mistique said:


> ... Love can’t get any better than that, right?



"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it  is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is  not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs." - 1 Corinthians 13:4-5

I had cause to think on past loves, today. I was lucky enough to come across this. It reminded me of all those times that I was overcome with love for another. Gladly. Every true love is the first. It's pure. You know it when it happens, no matter how many times it happens.  That's the wonderful thing about love - It's always the first time!


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## Plasticweld (Feb 11, 2015)

TJ1985 said:


> .
> 
> 
> On a similar note, gals all talk about wanting a sensitive man who's mature, but half of us are judged by our ability to climb like a primate to demonstrate our love? That's got to be love because it's too illogical to be anything else.



Thank God for women like this or us Neanderthal types wouldn't stand a chance.  I can't steer a pencil, or express my feelings, but I can climb a tree and hit you with a club.  You Geeky guys don't know how lucky  you are.  In todays world there is limited demand for guys who can drag their date home by the hair after beating up the other guy.


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## Mistique (Feb 12, 2015)

astroannie said:


> In my experience, love is:
> 
> partnership/sharing - if you aren't in it together, how can you truly say it's love?
> awareness - the knowledge of, and respect for, one another's imperfections.
> ...



That was pretty comprehensive in my eyes and nicely described 

I learned the definitions of envy and jealousy differently. I learned that when you feel envy you want what that other person has, but you also resent then having it. So you don't just want it for yourself, but you want them not to have it. That way envy wouldn't be such a reasonable thing at all, it would be rather unkind. I've learned that jealousy is either the fear of loosing what you have (your partner) or wanting something that someone else has (like a car or something), but not nessessarily resenting them having it. That way jealousy might be less unresonable. I don't mind  my partner getting jealous - I kinda like it - as long as he doesn't use it as an excuse to be controlling.

- - - Updated - - -



Morkonan said:


> "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it  is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is  not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs." - 1 Corinthians 13:4-5
> 
> I had cause to think on past loves, today. I was lucky enough to come across this. It reminded me of all those times that I was overcome with love for another. Gladly. Every true love is the first. It's pure. You know it when it happens, no matter how many times it happens.  That's the wonderful thing about love - It's always the first time!



That is beautifully written and made me smile. Thank you for that.


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## MamaStrong (Feb 12, 2015)

Was never a fan of Romeo and Juliet. Story always depressed me. How is THAT love? I agree with many others on this. True love to me is not feeling like you can live without someone, but doing so anyway.


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## Mistique (Feb 12, 2015)

Plasticweld said:


> Thank God for women like this or us Neanderthal types wouldn't stand a chance.  I can't steer a pencil, or express my feelings, but I can climb a tree and hit you with a club.  You Geeky guys don't know how lucky  you are.  In todays world there is limited demand for guys who can drag their date home by the hair after beating up the other guy.



And its even harder to do it online


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## aj47 (Feb 12, 2015)

I'm glad I tickled your funnybone.


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## Mistique (Feb 14, 2015)

I wrote something similar to this text - the one I started this tread with - but far more personal in a valentine's card for my boyfriend. He read it and tears jumped in his eyes. He doesn't cry. Ever! This might sound weird, but I think those tears were the most beautiful valentines gift that I have ever gotten. I love him so much.


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## bazz cargo (Feb 14, 2015)

Love was invented by bank-managers to make us overdrawn. (Who will spot the source first?)


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## escorial (Feb 15, 2015)

when you find true love you have found heaven on earth M


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