# what is involved in adding the lyrics of a present day song into your story



## MDewBoy (Oct 1, 2014)

I have a part of my story that calls for some of the lyrics of a present day song, that is important to that section of the story, but I'm not sure what is involved in doing that, has anyone here done this or does anyone know what steps are needs to do this?


Thanks MDewBoy


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## dale (Oct 1, 2014)

i think if you just credit the lyrics to the artist somehow, it should be ok.


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## popsprocket (Oct 1, 2014)

Nope. Definitely not.

Referencing the original creator of something is a defense against plagiarism, but it is _not_ a defense against copyright infringement.

We had this thread somewhere recently. The upshot is that you could get away with using a handful of words (3, 4, maybe 5 words) from the song and not come under fire, but any more than that and the copyright holder will probably sue you. It all depends on how litigious the other party is, but if they are prone to that sort of behaviour you could wind up in some serious trouble.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Oct 1, 2014)

From what I've researched it is best not to even think about touching the Rolling Stones. As a Beatles fan I can say with relative certainty that they will  probably try and sue your pants off too.


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## dale (Oct 1, 2014)

but the upshot is? if the stones or beatles try to sue you? that's great publicity for your book. the 'fairness act" is a lawyer's dream, from both sides of the coin.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Oct 1, 2014)

dale said:


> but the upshot is? if the stones or beatles try to sue you? that's great publicity for your book. the 'fairness act" is a lawyer's dream, from both sides of the coin.




True. Usually the threat of being sued works for them but if someone actually challenges them, well it could be interesting.:apple:


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## TKent (Oct 1, 2014)

Interesting. One of the books that sort of introduced me to the 'new adult fiction' genre (basically YA for twentysomethings) was called SLAMMED by Colleen Hoover. She dedicates the book to the Avett Brothers and every chapter starts with a quote from an Avett Brothers song (with credit to them).  I just perused the acknowledgements and don't see anything about them in there. It was her first novel and self-published (although she is now published by Simon & Schuster).  I wonder if they didn't care or if she worked something out with them. I'd find it hard to believe that an unknown self-published author (at the time) could even get in touch with them.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Oct 1, 2014)

The Avett Brothers are considered pretty indie. With a little luck they probably wouldn't care if you used their lyrics but you never really know.


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## J Anfinson (Oct 1, 2014)

My understanding of song usage: Saying a character is singing a particular song is fine. Writing the actual lyrics, even a small portion (because there is no safe percentage you can use), there is no guarantee against lawsuits. If you submit to a traditional publisher with said lyrics, you'd better make sure they know about it and find out if they can help you secure permission. Most of the time, from what I understand, it's not even worth it because the lawyers will want a boatload of money.


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## TKent (Oct 1, 2014)

My small business was sued and it is sure not worth taking a chance. Had I not had business insurance it would have closed my business.  And at the end it didn't cost me anything out of pocket but the stress for six months was enough to indescribable.  Hmmm...I mention an artist and song name in my story that is on Wattpad.  (it just says that the band was playing a cover of ArtistX's _SongY. 
_
Does anyone know if that is allowed?


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## Deleted member 56686 (Oct 1, 2014)

The artist and song name is considered fair use as I think J alluded to. I wish I could remember the web pages I got the information but there is a name for it. Anyway you should be okay as long as you don't use any lyrics.


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## MDewBoy (Oct 1, 2014)

Thanks, looks like I'm going to be outta luck on that, it would have been about 2 lines; 8 words of the song.
what if a song is in the public domain?
also how do some of these authors get to use the brand name of some of these big companies, like Dean Koontz reference of Coke or Walmart in his books.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Oct 1, 2014)

MDewBoy said:


> Thanks, looks like I'm going to be outta luck on that, it would have been about 2 lines; 8 words of the song.
> what if a song is in the public domain?
> also how do some of these authors get to use the brand name of some of these big companies, like Dean Koontz reference of Coke or Walmart in his books.



Public domain is okay but you're talking songs written before 1923. As far as companies you usually can get away with mentioning them as long as you don't say anything disparaging about them. Coke and Walmart fall under trademark law so others on the forum may have more specific information on that.


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## popsprocket (Oct 1, 2014)

The song name/artist name are fine to use because a name cannot be copyrighted. Like J said, mentioning the name is fine.

Brand names are also fine to use because they cannot be copyrighted. Your bigger issue there is defamation, but so long as you don't have real brand names doing bad things that might be considered defamatory (e.g. don't have Kraft be run by terrorists who are poisoning their peanut butter to kill infidels) you're fine.


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## popsprocket (Oct 1, 2014)

mrmustard615 said:


> Public domain is okay but you're talking songs written before 1923. As far as companies you usually can get away with mentioning them as long as you don't say anything disparaging about them. Coke and Walmart fall under trademark law so others on the forum may have more specific information on that.



Trademark law is another question altogether really. Trademarks protect the recognisable parts of a brand to prevent imitation. Using the name is fine. Calling your book 'McDonalds' with a big yellow M on the front cover isn't.


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## InstituteMan (Oct 1, 2014)

Copyright law (song lyrics) and trademark law (band names, etc) are complicated, and, making matters worse, they vary from country to country. There's a decent amount of room for fair use of copyrighted works, but you only find out you are in the clear after you win the lawsuit, which can be an expensive proposition. There's lots of non-infringing ways of using a trademark, but there's no magic formula to avoiding liability that you can find on the internet. Odds are you aren't going to infringe hither and yon or anything, but without hiring a lawyer you won't know for sure (and you may not even know for sure if you do).


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## J Anfinson (Oct 1, 2014)

mrmustard615 said:


> The artist and song name is considered fair use as I think J alluded to.



Yes. You can say Metallica's _Enter Sandman_ was playing on the radio, for example. 



MDewBoy said:


> how do some of these authors get to use the brand name of some of these big companies, like Dean Koontz reference of Coke or Walmart in his books.



Use of trademarks is perfectly fine as long as you don't portray them in a disparaging manner. There's no permission needed. However, there are a few guidelines that must be followed such as capitalizing the name, using the correct name of the product(s), etc. Do a Google search of "using trademarks in a novel" and you can find a wealth of information. Same with "using song lyrics in a novel".

Mind you, this is all from my own understanding from countless hours reading various sources.

ETA: Pops and InstituteMan sound like they may have an even better understanding than I.


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## InstituteMan (Oct 1, 2014)

One caveat on the 'you can use trademarks' adage is something pops alluded to above: you can't imply that you have the endorsement of the brand in question.


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## TKent (Oct 1, 2014)

Hey IM, you are bringing back some memories for me. In my lawsuit, I was accused of "copying" the term 'game winning percentage' in my tennis league from another tennis league (and about 20 other ridiculous things like that). As if any tennis league held the market on the term "game winning percentage".  It's like ARE YOU KIDDING ME! But despite the fact that the rules of a game cannot be copyrighted, the competitor that sued us asked for a jury trial and my lawyer said we'd never get 12 people on a jury that were capable of analyzing the subtleties of trademark/copyright law and so it would come down to a personality contest.  Granted, I thought I'd win the personality contest but followed my lawyers advice and changed the names of a bunch of stupid things.  So our game winning percentage got divided by ten and became a strength-rating and we went on with our lives!!


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## T.S.Bowman (Oct 1, 2014)

There is a spot in my WIP where I make reference to a Megadeth song called Sweating Bullets. There are a few words from the lyrics, but they are not in the exact order and/or are slightly changed to suit my purpose. Only one person, a very close friend of mine from High School, has ever caught the reference. Mostly because he liked that song as much as I did.

I am pretty sure that, as the writer of the story, if the lyrics you speak of are as important as you think they are, you'll be able to find ways to integrate them without directly quoting them.

I have one more character in mind for my WIP that would basically be Rainbow's Man On The Silver Mountain. But he won't be called that. And even though the song would lead to the character, and I will use the lyrics to create him, there won't be any need for me to quote them.

You can find ways around just about any problem like the one you refer to.


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## InstituteMan (Oct 1, 2014)

TKent said:


> Hey IM, you are bringing back some memories for me. In my lawsuit, I was accused of "copying" the term 'game winning percentage' in my tennis league from another tennis league (and about 20 other ridiculous things like that). As if any tennis league held the market on the term "game winning percentage".  It's like ARE YOU KIDDING ME! But despite the fact that the rules of a game cannot be copyrighted, the competitor that sued us asked for a jury trial and my lawyer said we'd never get 12 people on a jury that were capable of analyzing the subtleties of trademark/copyright law and so it would come down to a personality contest.  Granted, I thought I'd win the personality contest but followed my lawyers advice and changed the names of a bunch of stupid things.  So our game winning percentage got divided by ten and became a strength-rating and we went on with our lives!!



Back when I was a Wee Little Lawyer, a wise mentor explained to me that the worst settlement is better than the best judgement (aka, a win in court). Winning in court costs more in time and money, plus it will be appealed. Settling ends the dispute for good, and is faster and cheaper.


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## hvysmker (Oct 1, 2014)

I may be wrong, but I researched it once, years ago.  I remember something about the changes back in the thirties and forties stated that a song was copyrighted until, I believe it was, seven years after the writer's death. That later laws grandfathered the older songs.

Since I only listen to songs sung or performed before mid 1955, I should be safe with the ones  I use.  At least, if I can find the lyrics all over the internet,  I assume I'm  safe. Whether a publisher would agree ... that's another matter.

Charlie


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## InstituteMan (Oct 1, 2014)

hvysmker said:


> I may be wrong, but I researched it once, years ago.  I remember something about the changes back in the thirties and forties stated that a song was copyrighted until, I believe it was, seven years after the writer's death. That later laws grandfathered the older songs.
> 
> Since I only listen to songs sung or performed before mid 1955, I should be safe with the ones  I use.  At least, if I can find the lyrics all over the internet,  I assume I'm  safe. Whether a publisher would agree ... that's another matter.
> 
> Charlie



Actually, Congress extended copyright terms for works that would have otherwise expired back in the 90s, so it isn't always easy to just look at when a work was released to determine if it has entered the public domain.


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## MDewBoy (Oct 1, 2014)

well the lyrics that I would need, would have to be sung in the order that they are originally sung, my character would be singing just these 2 lines as his wife died in his arms.  even if I was to reverse the lines and make it seem like his emotions has him confusing the order that they should have been in, even that would not work for that scene. For him he is replaying lyrics from a song that was sung over 1500 years before.


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## hvysmker (Oct 1, 2014)

I  quoted the lyrics on an old song in one if the stories I posted here. It was "Mairsy Doats".  I was surprised when a Google showed a couple of groups singing it in the '90s.  Al Trace's orchestra played it in 1929, I think, and it was written years earlier.   Quoting a song is a crap shoot,  especially an old one.  Many, especially long ago, times they weren't even copyrighted.  Other times, when the writer died, their families didn't bother.  You never really know.  Just because some group these days sing it, doesn't mean it's not in the public domain.  Conversely, if the writer died many years ago, his great-grandsons might retain that copyright.

Maybe I should stick to the ones in the early 1900s? Hey! I have a few from the 1880s and 90s's on Edison records. They might be safe.

Charlie


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## InstituteMan (Oct 1, 2014)

hvysmker said:


> I  quoted the lyrics on an old song in one if the stories I posted here. It was "Mairsy Doats".  I was surprised when a Google showed a couple of groups singing it in the '90s.  Al Trace's orchestra played it in 1929, I think, and it was written years earlier.   Quoting a song is a crap shoot,  especially an old one.  Many, especially long ago, times they weren't even copyrighted.  Other times, when the writer died, their families didn't bother.  You never really know.  Just because some group these days sing it, doesn't mean it's not in the public domain.  Conversely, if the writer died many years ago, his great-grandsons might retain that copyright.
> 
> Maybe I should stick to the ones in the early 1900s? Hey! I have a few from the 1880s and 90s's on Edison records. They might be safe.
> 
> Charlie



The older the better, generally. Used to be (pre-1978), in the US you had to register the copyright to have it. Now you own a copyright as soon as you create something. I own a copyright in this very post by simple virtue of writing it.


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## MDewBoy (Oct 1, 2014)

I just did some online research and I'm now more than sure I'll work around that and not even think about using any copy write songs.

Can I post a link to the webpage that I found?


MDewBoy


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## EmmaSohan (Oct 2, 2014)

But websites print all the lyrics. Is that legal? Is that different from a book? I am guessing there are at least 50 websites for the lyrics of one song I checked. Anyway, more than a few.


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## popsprocket (Oct 2, 2014)

MDewBoy said:


> I just did some online research and I'm now more than sure I'll work around that and not even think about using any copy write songs.
> 
> Can I post a link to the webpage that I found?
> 
> ...



Yes, you may post the link.



EmmaSohan said:


> But websites print all the lyrics. Is that legal? Is that different from a book? I am guessing there are at least 50 websites for the lyrics of one song I checked. Anyway, more than a few.



Strictly speaking they aren't legal. And it becomes a big issue since a number of those sites have huge amounts of traffic and probably turn over a large amount of money just from the ad space they sell. The sticking point is that it's a whole different kettle of fish when it comes to taking down content on the internet. If a copyright holder sues an author then the publishing company complies immediately to protect themselves, their reputation, and their authors. If a website is issued a take-down notice there's no guarantee they'll do anything about it. What's more, the servers that host large sites are often located in countries where different authorities have different jurisdictions and levels of power to do something about it.

For instance, if a server is hosted in the US then it's relatively easy to pursue the owners for violation of copyright. But if the servers are hosted in, say, Eastern Europe, then the copyright holder has to go through the Eastern bloc authorities to have the site taken down, and even then that country's laws may not have provisions for how to go about taking down sites that breach terms of copyright. Among others, this is one of the reasons that the various industry bodies are having such a hard time doing anything about P2P services.


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## MDewBoy (Oct 2, 2014)

thank you pop!

here is the link

http://annerallen.blogspot.com/2013/03/so-you-want-to-use-song-lyrics-in-your.html


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## hvysmker (Oct 2, 2014)

I  have a question for Instituteman, if if's not too off subject.
What about old poetry?  Is that okay if you give credit?

I have one story where I use a poem by Rudyard Kipling throughout the story and credit him during it.

Charlie


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## InstituteMan (Oct 2, 2014)

Emma--One minor addition to pop's excellent explanation about lyrics sites is that some of those sites have been sued, and many now pay royalties.

Hvysmker--I haven't done the calculations for Kipling (and can't give legal advice here for many, many reasons), but your rational sounds solid to me. FWIW, the type of work (novel, poetry, song, etc) doesn't change copyright term in the US.


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## aj47 (Oct 2, 2014)

hvysmker said:


> I  have a question for Instituteman, if if's not too off subject.
> What about old poetry?  Is that okay if you give credit?
> 
> I have one story where I use a poem by Rudyard Kipling throughout the story and credit him during it.
> ...



Kipling may be a Special Case.  I say this because I know a number of folksingers (and filksingers) who have recorded versions of his poetry set to their melodies. The two that come to mind are Leslie Fish and Michael Longcor but I think Joe Bethencourt may have, also, and others.  I don't know if it's because he's been dead long enough or if it's because his family let the copyright lapse or if they Just Don't Care, or what.


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## MDewBoy (Oct 2, 2014)

I'm going to have a pile of questions, but if I'm reading everything here correctly, then I'm 80% sure that if I was to name one of my short stories after a song title and the story revolved around the lyrics, but not using any of the lyrics in the story, that would be considered ok?


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## Bishop (Oct 2, 2014)

MDewBoy said:


> I'm going to have a pile of questions, but if I'm reading everything here correctly, then I'm 80% sure that if I was to name one of my short stories after a song title and the story revolved around the lyrics, but not using any of the lyrics in the story, that would be considered ok?



I'm no expert, but with how much money, legalese and paperwork goes into adapting a novel into a movie, I would bet this is a no-no.


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## InstituteMan (Oct 2, 2014)

MDewBoy said:


> I'm going to have a pile of questions, but if I'm reading everything here correctly, then I'm 80% sure that if I was to name one of my short stories after a song title and the story revolved around the lyrics, but not using any of the lyrics in the story, that would be considered ok?



The problem--and I am not saying that this would be the case, I'm just saying it is something you will want to consider--is that one of the rights of a copyright owner is to control the creation of "derivative works.' In other words, making a movie based upon the novel. To the degree the song name is treated as a trademark (and in some instances, it might be), you could run into problems using it as the title for a work you publish. So, once again, it depends . . .


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## MDewBoy (Oct 2, 2014)

ahhrrrr throws hands in the air, bangs head off the wall, throws body down onto floor and kicks and screams.  Ok where do I sign up to become president and start writing my own laws.

well back to the thinking room, now where did I leave that spray?


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## InstituteMan (Oct 2, 2014)

MDewBoy said:


> ahhrrrr throws hands in the air, bangs head off the wall, throws body down onto floor and kicks and screams.  Ok where do I sign up to become president and start writing my own laws.
> 
> well back to the thinking room, now where did I leave that spray?



Actually, you'll also need a majority in each chamber of congress, and possibly a super-majority in the senate. Changing the law is hard . . .


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## Deleted member 56686 (Oct 2, 2014)

InstituteMan said:


> Actually, you'll also need a majority in each chamber of congress, and possibly a super-majority in the senate. Changing the law is hard . . .




Not to mention a sympathetic President. Good luck with all of that.:|


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## Bishop (Oct 2, 2014)

MDewBoy said:


> ahhrrrr throws hands in the air, bangs head off the wall, throws body down onto floor and kicks and screams.  Ok where do I sign up to become president and start writing my own laws.
> 
> well back to the thinking room, now where did I leave that spray?



Just remember, for every time creative rights laws hinder your work, they also protect it from other people doing the same thing to you.


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## tabasco5 (Oct 2, 2014)

1. Do you plan on publishing this story?


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## MDewBoy (Oct 3, 2014)

I do plan on publishing it, I already changed the name of the title and I'm almost finished writing it, I hope to have it done by Sunday morning, it's going to be between 5k to 5.5k in words
when I'm done I'm going top have someone here look it over, pick it apart and show me what I need to do to polish it up.
as I have said before I'm not a writer and I wrote these just for me, friends and family about 15-20 years ago, but know I want to take them another step up and I'll need someone here to help me beyond my kindergarten writing.

and maybe get it published... who knows?


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