# Ownership Issues



## S.T. Ranger (Dec 9, 2014)

Is there a copyright process that should be undergone before letting your material get into the public or given to publishers? In other words, what keeps someone from using your concepts before you are able to get them published?


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## popsprocket (Dec 9, 2014)

Any works you create are automatically protected by copyright that belongs to you.

And nothing stops others from using your concepts before you get to publishing, but you know what? That's an irrational fear.

Since an idea can't be copyrighted there's nothing you can do about people stealing concepts in the first place. More importantly though, the chances that two authors, given the same concept, would conceive a more than passingly similar book are quite low. Give 100 authors the same plot and you'd get 100 vastly different books. Don't worry about it. In any case, most writers have enough of their own ideas to last  a life time that they don't need someone else's getting in the way.


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## S.T. Ranger (Dec 9, 2014)

popsprocket said:


> Any works you create are automatically protected by copyright that belongs to you.



So if I were to present a concept on this forum, for example, which is a guide to a particular activity, and someone else got a book that presented that same concept, I would have a case to protest? I would agree a concept cannot be declared to belong to any one individual, but when it comes to, again for example, a concept concerning a particular activity, wouldn't it be better to keep something like that under wraps?

In regards to fiction, though (the concept is a non-fiction effort), when someone posts, for example, the first chapter of a book they want to write and get published, would that posting be evidence of ownership in the legal sense, or if someone stole major components of the story which make it unique, would the original author simply be out of luck?



popsprocket said:


> Any works you create are automatically protected by copyright that belongs to you.



Specifically, do you have to go through a legal process to enjoy copyright protection? Or are you saying that what we create is in fact automatically protected whether we have gone through a formal copyright process (which I am woefully ignorant about, hence the question)?


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## movieman (Dec 9, 2014)

Depends on the country you're in. In America, for example, everything is automatically copyrighted when you write it, but you can't sue without registering it first, and, if you register it within a few months of publication, you can get statutory damages rather than having to prove damages.

What you don't want to do is register it before submitting to publishers, as they don't want to release a book in 2016 that's copyrighted in 2012.


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## Terry D (Dec 9, 2014)

S.T. Ranger said:


> So if I were to present a concept on this forum, for example, which is a guide to a particular activity, and someone else got a book that presented that same concept, I would have a case to protest? I would agree a concept cannot be declared to belong to any one individual, but when it comes to, again for example, a concept concerning a particular activity, wouldn't it be better to keep something like that under wraps?



A concept is not subject to copyright. Only the expression of that idea; in other words only your words are protected, not the ideas they express. I can write as many books as I want about the adventures of a young boy who's whisked off to a school for wizards and not be in violation of copyright law until I call him Harry Potter, or the school Hogwarts.



> In regards to fiction, though (the concept is a non-fiction effort), when someone posts, for example, the first chapter of a book they want to write and get published, would that posting be evidence of ownership in the legal sense, or if someone stole major components of the story which make it unique, would the original author simply be out of luck?



Yes. Such a posting could provide poof of authorship. So can the original, dated, files of your early drafts. One thing to aware of when posting on-line is that work posted to the public area of forums--the areas easily accessible by search engines--can be considered 'published' which means many magazines and publishers will not be interested in taking on those stories and articles. Here at WF we have the Prose Writer's Workshop forum which is not open to search engines and so provides protection for your 'First Rights'.



> Specifically, do you have to go through a legal process to enjoy copyright protection? Or are you saying that what we create is in fact automatically protected whether we have gone through a formal copyright process (which I am woefully ignorant about, hence the question)?



You can go through the U.S. Copyright Office (if you are in the States) and register your copyright for a fee, but you do not have to do so to protect your work. Your words are protected as soon as they are written. The only advantage to a registered copyright is the ability to sue for infringement in a Federal Court (other copyright violations can be addressed in state courts).

Many new writers worry about their work being stolen. Don't. Writers want to write their own stories, not yours.


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## shadowwalker (Dec 9, 2014)

Read these:

http://www.copyright.gov/

http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/copyright

The point that seems most relevant for you (and most new writers who ask this same question) is: "Copyright protection subsists in original works of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression from which they can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, either directly or with the aid of a machine or device... Copyright protection does not extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery. For example, if a book is written describing a new system of bookkeeping, copyright protection only extends to the author's description of the bookkeeping system; it does not protect the system itself."

Fiction or nonfiction, an idea is just that - an idea. What authors do with it are as varied as the authors. One author could write a dry, humorless dissertation on how to do "A" - another author will write it with wit and charm. A third author might take 40 pages to get the information out - another might take 400. As noted earlier, most authors have more than enough ideas of their own without stealing someone else's.


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## Sam (Dec 9, 2014)

It's a common fear of first-time authors, but it rarely happens. 

Nobody is going to steal your ideas, and you can't protect them anyway, so it's not anything worth stressing over.


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## S.T. Ranger (Dec 9, 2014)

Thanks for the responses, this is very helpful. Just want to make it clear I am not stressing over it...I am researching it, lol. 

Perhaps another "great fear" of new writers is actually...letting someone read their work. This too is not a fear, because the subject material has been dealt with extensively in the last five or so years, and honed in the last couple of years to the point where writing about it is already a matter of everyday practice. 

The truth is, the very reason for this book is that not only will people take the work for their own, so to speak, but will present it in their own perspective (in the vein of Shadowwalker's comments concerning the difference of presentation due to the unique qualities of the author). The material is not original, just the presentation. My questions do include the non-fiction work, but look more towards a fiction effort, which is the true childhood dream, lol.


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## Bishop (Dec 9, 2014)

My idea is so much better than yours. Why would I want to steal it?

      --Other writers

The reality is that people stalking the internet looking for creative works to steal are rare, because those who want to become writers are in love with their own ideas and characters. Another thing to remember, if someone steals your book, miraculously gets it published... what will they do when the publisher asks for a sequel? They know not how to write in that way and have no ideas for the story. No one is going to steal your work. They have their own to worry about.

Also, bear in mind, that all ideas have been done before in some fashion or the next. Pure originality is a lost cause.


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## S.T. Ranger (Dec 9, 2014)

Bishop said:


> My idea is so much better than yours. Why would I want to steal it?



Oh really...what is that idea again? Talk slow...

lol


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## Bishop (Dec 9, 2014)

S.T. Ranger said:


> Oh really...what is that idea again? Talk slow...
> 
> lol



Did you want me to list all 9 of my WsIP here?


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## aj47 (Dec 9, 2014)

An idea is not a story.  A concept is a kind of idea.  Stories are copyrightable--ideas and concepts are not.  

Look at all the variations on fairy tale themes that are out there.  Each author has a copyright on their version, but it doesn't prevent other folks from reinterpreting the basic theme.

I have a lovely idea, but no plot to use it with.  Without a story, it's sort of nebulous anyway and I don't see the point in sharing it.  Once I have a way of expressing it as part of a story, I'll gladly share because at that time, it will have crystallized.  <-- is that the sort of thing you're dealing with?


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## Kyle R (Dec 9, 2014)

Stephenie Meyer gave an unfinished draft of her book, _Midnight Sun_, to a friend and beta reader for feedback.

The friend then posted the draft on the internet, thus killing Meyer's first publication rights. The book was never finished or published because of that incident.

So, I suppose there's a risk in that, if you give your incomplete manuscript to someone, they may post it online for the world to see. :grief: 

I'd keep your manuscript close to you, for that reason.

Ideas and concepts are a different matter, though. Like Bishop said, most writers are too busy working on their own ideas to be concerned with yours.


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## Bishop (Dec 9, 2014)

Kyle R said:


> Stephenie Meyer gave an unfinished draft of her book, _Midnight Sun_, to a friend and beta reader for feedback.
> 
> The friend then posted the draft on the internet, thus killing Meyer's first publication rights. The book was never finished or published because of that incident.



I owe that "friend" a beer.


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## Apex (Dec 9, 2014)

S.T. Ranger said:


> Is there a copyright process that should be undergone before letting your material get into the public or given to publishers? In other words, what keeps someone from using your concepts before you are able to get them published?



Strange;

Most writers think they have the Great American Novel. A concept is open to anybody. The way you write your story is protected, unless it is a case of history.
If anybody copied my work, I’d be flattered.
True the moment you write something, it is copyright. If others use it you can take them to court…will you win? Maybe, and again, maybe not. Either send a copy to the copyright office, or mail yourself a copy, and do not open it…this will prove when you wrote it. (let the court open it.)
It will always be a case of who can prove they wrote it first.
Here is the only danger I worry about. “If a publisher has a book coming out within a year, or so, and you submit to them, they may (and have in the past) take your book under contract without an advance, then put it away is a draw forever. They will protect what they are publishing against all competition.

How to safeguard against this? A six figure advance, or no deal.


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## Terry D (Dec 9, 2014)

Apex said:


> Strange;
> 
> If others use it you can take them to court…will you win? Maybe, and again, maybe not. Either send a copy to the copyright office, or mail yourself a copy, and do not open it…this will prove when you wrote it. (let the court open it.)
> It will always be a case of who can prove they wrote it first.



No. This is known as 'the poor man's copyright' and is a myth. It is no proof of authorship. It is easy to circumvent. All you need do is mail yourself a bunch of empty, unsealed envelopes. They will arrive with official postmarks. All you have to do is wait until you find the story you want to steal, print it out, put it in the envelope and seal it. There you have it, a sealed, dated package. Your best proof of authorship is your notes, drafts, and rewrites of your work. A manuscript doesn't just appear all in one piece, a thief won't have the paper trail you can produce.


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## Apex (Dec 9, 2014)

Terry D said:


> No. This is known as 'the poor man's copyright' and is a myth. It is no proof of authorship. It is easy to circumvent. All you need do is mail yourself a bunch of empty, unsealed envelopes. They will arrive with official postmarks. All you have to do is wait until you find the story you want to steal, print it out, put it in the envelope and seal it. There you have it, a sealed, dated package. Your best proof of authorship is your notes, drafts, and rewrites of your work. A manuscript doesn't just appear all in one piece, a thief won't have the paper trail you can produce.



What? I did not say to leave the envelope unsealed? Seal it and mail it to yourself...it has been done for years, and has always held up in court. But, if you believe your way is secure...do it.


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## Terry D (Dec 9, 2014)

That's not what I said. What I described is a way around the poor man's copyright. Self mailed manuscripts do _not_ hold up in court because it is too easy to fake. 

http://www.copyrightauthority.com/poor-mans-copyright/

http://www.slate.com/articles/techn...iling_something_to_yourself_doesn_t_work.html


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## bookmasta (Dec 9, 2014)

Terry D said:


> What I described is a way around the poor man's copyright. Self mailed manuscripts do _not_ hold up in court because it is too easy to fake.
> 
> http://www.copyrightauthority.com/poor-mans-copyright/



Terry is absolutely correct on this point.


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## Sam (Dec 9, 2014)

It doesn't hold up in court -- not any longer. That's what Terry is saying.


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## bazz cargo (Dec 9, 2014)

Posted extracts in the workshop are harder to fake.


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## S.T. Ranger (Dec 10, 2014)

astroannie said:


> An idea is not a story.  A concept is a kind of idea.  Stories are copyrightable--ideas and concepts are not.
> 
> Look at all the variations on fairy tale themes that are out there.  Each author has a copyright on their version, but it doesn't prevent other folks from reinterpreting the basic theme.
> 
> I have a lovely idea, but no plot to use it with.  Without a story, it's sort of nebulous anyway and I don't see the point in sharing it.  Once I have a way of expressing it as part of a story, I'll gladly share because at that time, it will have crystallized.  <-- is that the sort of thing you're dealing with?



Well, it has both fiction and non-fiction in mind, right now more the non-fiction angle, because I have decided to start with a non-fiction work which is to be a guide for people of a particular interest. I googled it this morning and not one hit for this endeavor...not one. The reversal of the two words are all that came up, which have numerous hits. 

So I guess one thing that concerns me is someone faster at writing and more acquainted with the publishing process getting that concept and hitting the stands before me, lol. I know, kind of selfish, perhaps even arrogant, but all the same, I feel it best to keep it under wraps until I can, for myself, pursue this endeavor. Kind of silly, really, because the goal is to get this information out there, but, maybe you can understand it is a project which has been a passion for me for a number of years now, and no-one else has even mentioned it enough to get a mention in a search. 

For the fiction, I think there are concepts that can be weaved together that make one story stand out from another. For example, I remember when I first read Sword of Shannara and thinking "What a blatant rip-off of the Hobbit." But Brooks developed it as he went and even turned it into something with perhaps a little more depth over the years (just meaning from an expansive perspective...no-one will ever replace the Lord of the Rings and the Hossit in my heart, lol).

So just curious as to how the members here feel comfortable posting unpublished work, and I am sure after I have been around longer I will better understand that. Again, I was thinking, and have thought for quite a while that a public statement would be viewed as proof or original statement if things ever got to a point where something like that had to be proved. We can't change date-stamps as far as I know, so it seems that the public setting in a social forum makes for good evidence of ownership.

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Apex said:


> Strange;
> 
> Most writers think they have the Great American Novel. A concept is open to anybody. The way you write your story is protected, unless it is a case of history.
> If anybody copied my work, I’d be flattered.
> ...



I am not so much worried about a concept being stolen so  much, because I intend to keep it under wraps anyway, lol. 

I have thought about maybe posting some non-fiction just as a trial run for the fiction, though. That just sounds like a lot of fun.




Apex said:


> How to safeguard against this? A six figure advance, or no deal.



I like the way you think, lol.

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bazz cargo said:


> Posted extracts in the workshop are harder to fake.



But...imitation extracts are much cheaper...


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## J Anfinson (Dec 10, 2014)

Bishop said:


> My idea is so much better than yours. Why would I want to steal it?



That's actually pretty much my thoughts. I don't tend to get excited about other peoples ideas. It doesn't interest me if I didn't think of it, and though I could write it, it wouldn't be with the same passion.


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## aj47 (Dec 10, 2014)

S.T. Ranger said:


> So I guess one thing that concerns me is someone faster at writing and more acquainted with the publishing process getting that concept and hitting the stands before me, lol. I know, kind of selfish, perhaps even arrogant, but all the same, I feel it best to keep it under wraps until I can, for myself, pursue this endeavor. Kind of silly, really, because the goal is to get this information out there, but, maybe you can understand it is a project which has been a passion for me for a number of years now, and no-one else has even mentioned it enough to get a mention in a search.



Why?  Is this The Highlander where "there can be only One" or something?  Having a better grasp generally pays better in the long run as you'll get better reviews and stuff.  So being first isn't necessarily inherently a ticket to ultimate success.  Look at "The Hunger Games".


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## S.T. Ranger (Dec 11, 2014)

astroannie said:


> Why?  Is this The Highlander where "there can be only One" or something?



No, lol, nothing so boring as _that concept_.



I guess it's, as I said, kind of like having a feeling of ownership and not wanting anyone else to get it out there first. The goal is to get as many people getting it out there, and my selfishness at this stage is more just due to excitement to getting it out there first. I googled the concept and not a single hit. Which surprises me, because it seems to me that this would be common knowledge.



astroannie said:


> Having a better grasp generally pays better in the long run as you'll get better reviews and stuff.



The non-fiction book is something that I have been developing for years, or at least I like to think so.

The fiction, well, now that contains some concepts which I like to think are original, not having a precedence in the genre I intend to write. That too might be ignorance on my part, because I have not read all books, lol.



astroannie said:


> So being first isn't necessarily inherently a ticket to ultimate success.  Look at "The Hunger Games".



Not sure what you mean by this. Saw the movies, and personally was not impressed very much. Probably the best movie (haven't actually had, or perhaps better to say taken time in years to read a novel) I think that has come out is "Edge of Tomorrow" with Cruise. Not a Cruise fan but he has made it into a number of sci-fi movies that, as a whole, are movies I prefer to most of what is produced. 

So I don't know the background to put what you say here into a proper context. Are you saying the Hunger Games concept is in something else?


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## aj47 (Dec 11, 2014)

She ripped off her ideas.  That's what I mean.  If you don't know where from, then she succeeded.


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## S.T. Ranger (Dec 11, 2014)

Who did she rip off?


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## J Anfinson (Dec 11, 2014)

S.T. Ranger said:


> Who did she rip off?



Don't know the author, but they were Japanese and it was called Battle Royale.


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## S.T. Ranger (Dec 11, 2014)

J Anfinson said:


> Don't know the author, but they were Japanese and it was called Battle Royale.



I would think something like this would bring an outcry, if a known work was copied closely enough.

It has been mentioned several times, though, that a concept cannot be copyrighted. Do you think it is a close enough rip-off that a suit might be brought, or is it more in the vein of, say, hundreds of hundreds of books which follow a similar pattern to the Lord of The Rings (quest, a fellowship, wizard, et cetera)?

The movie "Edge of Tomorrow" borrowed from "The Source Code," I thought, though it was a fairly original work (and that is just based on what I know, which isn't much) and I liked it better. Since most concepts are going to have a precedence, we should expect similarity, but from what it sounds like, this is a pretty direct rip-off. Again, seems that would be more known. Of course, many things that should be more known aren't, lol, but this would be something I would think would have come up somewhere (and it may have, I don't really watch too much TV).


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## S.T. Ranger (Dec 11, 2014)

Looked at a Wikipedia article on it, and it is interesting to see the author's view:

_Battle Royale_ author Takami said he appreciated fans "standing up" for his book, but stated that he thinks "every novel has something to offer," and that if "readers find value in either book, that's all an author can ask for."

Very interesting, thanks for calling it to my attention.


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## J Anfinson (Dec 11, 2014)

I highly doubt a lawsuit would be successful since it was only the idea that was taken. As for why it's a big deal regardless, I think fans are mostly pissed that she denied ever reading the book and that she claimed she came up with it on her own.

(From what I've read about it, anyway.)


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## S.T. Ranger (Dec 11, 2014)

J Anfinson said:


> I highly doubt a lawsuit would be successful since it was only the idea that was taken. As for why it's a big deal regardless, I think fans are mostly pissed that she denied ever reading the book and that she claimed she came up with it on her own.
> 
> (From what I've read about it, anyway.)



Yeah, I saw that too in the article I read. I didn't really have a problem taking it as truthful, though I guess I would need to know better whether this was something kind of exclusive to, what was it, Japan, or if it got attention over here. That wouldn't discount her ability to access it, but that is actually a worry of mine...writing something only to find there is a similar work somewhere. I think most authors borrow to some extent, because as it has been mentioned a couple times in the short time I have been here, there is really no original concept anymore (though I don't agree with that altogether, though in large part this is true). We could likely find an earlier work for a number of works which we might build a plausible case that the newer work "borrows from it," and perhaps heavily. That's what I thought about the Cylons in the original Battleship Galactica TV series. It actually biased me against it (though I still watched it because sci-fi was just limited back then). They looked a lot like storm troopers, lol.

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So basically I wouldn't assume deception or theft on her part. It might be true, but it isn't wise to draw such a conclusion without proper evidence (i.e., the original book with her notes in it, lol).


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## aj47 (Dec 11, 2014)

Yes, but she was not the first with her idea.   That is my point.  Being first doesn't mean you get the biggest piece of the pie.


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## aj47 (Dec 11, 2014)

However, if it's important to your ego to be first, then go ahead and strive for it.


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## J Anfinson (Dec 11, 2014)

S.T. Ranger said:


> So basically I wouldn't assume deception or theft on her part. It might be true, but it isn't wise to draw such a conclusion without proper evidence (i.e., the original book with her notes in it, lol).



It's possible she's being truthful, I'm not saying she's lying beyond a shadow of a doubt... But it's kind of like someone writing a book about a magical school for wizards and claiming they've never heard of Harry Potter.


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## Bishop (Dec 11, 2014)

J Anfinson said:


> It's possible she's being truthful, I'm not saying she's lying beyond a shadow of a doubt... But it's kind of like someone writing a book about a magical school for wizards and claiming they've never heard of Harry Potter.



Who's Harry Potter? Did he write some wizard book?


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## S.T. Ranger (Dec 11, 2014)

astroannie said:


> Yes, but she was not the first with her idea.   That is my point.  Being first doesn't mean you get the biggest piece of the pie.



Point taken. An example of this in music might be Jan and Dean versus the Beach Boys, lol.




astroannie said:


> However, if it's important to your ego to be first, then go ahead and strive for it.




I do admit I like being the guy that points out stuff that should be common knowledge, and being first is just icing on the pie, lol.

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J Anfinson said:


> It's possible she's being truthful, I'm not saying she's lying beyond a shadow of a doubt... But it's kind of like someone writing a book about a magical school for wizards and claiming they've never heard of Harry Potter.




Maybe not, Harry Potter was simply a sensation, for some strange reason, lol. In the case of Battle Royale, I am not sure if there is an equal parallel. Of course, I just don't know how popular that was. Because I haven't heard of it doesn't mean it's not common knowledge. I wasn't even aware there were accusations made in regards to the two.

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Bishop said:


> Who's Harry Potter? Did he write some wizard book?




Come on, Bishop, everyone knows who Colonel Potter is...

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...played by Sherman Morgan.


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## J Anfinson (Dec 11, 2014)

Popularity aside, it's still suspicious that two people end up with supposedly* incredibly similar plots.

*I must admit, I've read neither.


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## shadowwalker (Dec 12, 2014)

I wouldn't be surprised if she had never read it. How many times do we see that consternation expressed on these forums: "I just wrote this story and now find another almost exactly like it already published!!!!!"? As long as it's not a case of actual plagiarism, does it really matter?


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## Bishop (Dec 12, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if she had never read it. How many times do we see that consternation expressed on these forums: "I just wrote this story and now find another almost exactly like it already published!!!!!"? As long as it's not a case of actual plagiarism, does it really matter?



Strangely, I think I wouldn't be surprised either... I mean, maybe it's just me, but "teens fighting to the death" doesn't seem like some great secret to unlock. And once you get that part of the idea, much of the rest seems to be standard dystopian/teen lit fare.


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## J Anfinson (Dec 13, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if she had never read it. How many times do we see that consternation expressed on these forums: "I just wrote this story and now find another almost exactly like it already published!!!!!"? As long as it's not a case of actual plagiarism, does it really matter?



Maybe I'm just too much of a pessimist.


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## S.T. Ranger (Dec 14, 2014)

In researching copyright issues I read that it's not illegal to plagiarize things in the public domain. Because it is not protected, one could do that without fear of reprisal, but pointed out ethical ramifications of it. In other words, you could do it but it wouldn't be advisable in regards to your own reputation. 

I don't think anyone serious about writing would intentionally steal something from someone else, and like mentioned before, this is a cause for concern: writing something to find out it is similar to something someone else wrote. I think this would be more easily done in music, where we might remember something we heard long ago and forgot about it. The same might be said for a story concept which might be based on something we read long ago and forgot that we did. Not very likely, but possible? I would say probably so.


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## Sam (Dec 14, 2014)

What everyone conveniently forgets about _Battle Royale _(2000) and _The Hunger Games_ (2009) is that both of them ripped off Richard Bachman's _The Running Man_ (1982), which is in itself highly derived from Richard Connell's _The Most Dangerous Game _(1932). 

But you never hear anyone say that Bachman ripped off Connell. Why? Because he only used the idea. The two storylines are completely different. Connell's is about a man who gets marooned on an island and is hunted down by a group of big-game hunters who are going after the most dangerous game. Bachman's is about prisoners who are set on the loose and hunted down by a totalitarian ruling power. Similar premises, but different execution. 

You can't say that about _Battle Royale _and _The Hunger Games_. They're _way _too similar for her to not know the inspiration. She made it a million times worse by lying about it. If she had said, "Yes, I knew there was something similar that had been done a few years before my novel, but I didn't want any outside works influencing my story, so I didn't read it," all would have been forgotten long ago. But she shot herself in the foot and stoked by fires by declaiming that she had never heard of it. It would be like me writing a story about a totalitarian ruling power called Big Sister and claiming I never heard of _Nineteen Eighty-Four. _


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## shadowwalker (Dec 14, 2014)

I think the thing to remember is the difference between actual plagiarism and just being similar. 

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/plagiarism


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## bazz cargo (Dec 14, 2014)

I have a part written short on how time was used as money, guess what, yep the film came out before I'd finished it. 

@Sam, there is also 'Tunnel In The Sky' by Heinlien. 

And in support of Suzanne Collins, I have yet to read any Japanese Sci Fi. I have seen Godzilla.


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## S.T. Ranger (Dec 15, 2014)

bazz cargo said:


> I have a part written short on how time was used as money, guess what, yep the film came out before I'd finished it.



I hope yours was better than the movie, lol.


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