# Should there be a retirement age for writers?



## HarryG (Jul 10, 2010)

I read this morning of an author who had his first novel published at the age of 81.  I also know of a famous American author who retired from writing at the age of 28.  All the writers I know personally will only stop wiring when they die.


 Yet every other profession, even judges, have a retirement age, and if it's not a mandatory one, people will usually acknowledge that their career is over, at some stage.  Why not writers?


 During the last week, I knew that there were two days on which I would have the absolute freedom to do whatever I wanted, in a secluded spot, and I chose to spend the time reading.  As my unread books had been stored in a damp place, I had to buy new ones and didn't have much time.  A local charity shop sells second-hand books and when I visited, I found late novels by King and Grisham almost begging me to rescue them from the incredible rubbish all around them.  I obliged.


 I read the two books for pure enjoyment, but was disappointed.  King was his usual elegant self, but his story was very similar to ones he had already told.  Grisham was patently fed up with writing, his words were tired and the story uninteresting.


 It was after reading those two long books I started to think of writers retiring, closing the circle when it became personal.  I'm somewhere between 28 and 81, but I've been writing for a long time.  My deep thinking was interrupted by my website manager wanting the yearly hosting fee for my author's site.


 For the first time I hesitated for a whole day before paying it.


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## The Backward OX (Jul 10, 2010)

There’s hope for me yet.

Harry, one reason why some writers don’t retire may be that the brain doesn’t die the way the rest of the body does. Plumbers for example would have a limited shelf life. But even at my age I could, if I wished, write with as much élan - probably more, in fact, given I have more “write what you know” experience - as could a young blade of 23, about screwing some chick senseless. Maybe if my fingers became too arthritic I might have to do a Barbara Cartland and employ a secretary - sorry, P.A.- to write my dictation, or use one of those dangfangled contraptions that convert voice into text, but one way or the other I could still do it.

Anyway, I recall you’ve been down a similar road in the past. Nearly three years ago your mantra was “Can you write the well dry?”

http://www.writingforums.com/showth...e-the-well-dry&p=989274&viewfull=1#post989274

 You’re probably just a shit-stirrer like me, mate.


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## JosephB (Jul 10, 2010)

It depends on the person, but I think a lot of folks simply want to keep doing what they know and do best, even if they can no longer match what they may have achieved in the past. I think that's especially true of creative people. Athletes too, seem to have a hard time quiting. 

I see it in my business, creative directors and graphic designers who continue to churn out work that looks like it came out of the era in which they achieved their greatest success. Most don't seem to recognize it. I think some do, but they just can't give it up or feel they can't do anything else. Others seem to keep up and manage to do fresh looking work. It's weird, but there just aren't many in the business over 50 or so -- and that might be pushing it. Some of it's perception -- that only young people can have fresh ideas. It's definitely a youth oriented business, and I think there is some level of prejudice against older designers and art directors. I've already started looking ahead and have begun to move more into the business side of things -- I'm doing more and more strategic communications planning etc. I plan on doing hands-on creative as long as I can do the work and hope I'll be able to recognize it when I get to the point where it's no longer relevant. But who knows. Sometimes it's just really hard to give up something you love doing.


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## Linton Robinson (Jul 10, 2010)

??????????????
Retirement is for clock-punchers.
Artists and hobbyists don't retire.  Why would they?  They're doing what other people work 30 years to do in their retirement


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## Linton Robinson (Jul 10, 2010)

Better question,  shouldn't freelance writers get some sort of social security or retirement package even though we've never been employees?

Writers can't AFFORD to retire.


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## Baron (Jul 10, 2010)

lin said:


> Writers can't AFFORD to retire.



There are a few who would have done the world a great favour if they'd retired before they started.


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## HarryG (Jul 10, 2010)

JosephB said:


> It depends on the person, but I think a lot of folks simply want to keep doing what they know and do best, even if they can no longer match what they may have achieved in the past. I think that's especially true of creative people. Athletes too, seem to have a hard time quiting.
> 
> I see it in my business, creative directors and graphic designers who continue to churn out work that looks like it came out of the era in which they achieved their greatest success. Most don't seem to recognize it. I think some do, but they just can't give it up or feel they can't do anything else. Others seem to keep up and manage to do fresh looking work. It's weird, but there just aren't many in the business over 50 or so -- and that might be pushing it. Some of it's perception -- that only young people can have fresh ideas. It's definitely a youth oriented business, and I think there is some level of prejudice against older designers and art directors. I've already started looking ahead and have begun to move more into the business side of things -- I'm doing more and more strategic communications planning etc. I plan on doing hands-on creative as long as I can do the work and hope I'll be able to recognize it when I get to the point where it's no longer relevant. But who knows. Sometimes it's just really hard to give up something you love doing.


	 	 I was thinking along similar lines, Joe, how can I give up writing when it's the one thing I know I'm good at?  I know it sounds vain but I can't think of putting it any other way, not in context to this thread.


 When I was around 14 years old, my metal and woodwork teacher explained why he had given me the lowest grade in those subjects and gave me some life-lasting advice.


 “Don't consider any occupation that requires mechanical application, you're useless with your hands.”  


 Those were hurtful words at the time, but I must have listened because 20 years later I was a police detective and my special expertise was getting confessions from murderers, without using my hands.  Apart from that one occasion . . . with that horrible kidnapper . . . but anyway, water boarding is legal now, isn't it?  


 I wrote ten pages early this morning, before the horrible heat of the day, so either my enthusiasm is still intact, or I suffer from yet another addiction.


 (What happened to your pal, and mine, Malone?  I had a PM from him yesterday and tried to reply but couldn't.)


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## JosephB (Jul 10, 2010)

Well, they're always looking for greeters at Wall-Mart.


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## Linton Robinson (Jul 10, 2010)

Are you finding it rewarding?


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## JosephB (Jul 10, 2010)

Yes -- and I look especially sharp in the red vest.

And then there are the corndogs at the lunch counter, which I get at a discount.


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## HarryG (Jul 10, 2010)

The Backward OX said:


> There’s hope for me yet.
> 
> Harry, one reason why some writers don’t retire may be that the brain doesn’t die the way the rest of the body does. Plumbers for example would have a limited shelf life. But even at my age I could, if I wished, write with as much élan - probably more, in fact, given I have more “write what you know” experience - as could a young blade of 23, about screwing some chick senseless. Maybe if my fingers became too arthritic I might have to do a Barbara Cartland and employ a secretary - sorry, P.A.- to write my dictation, or use one of those dangfangled contraptions that convert voice into text, but one way or the other I could still do it.
> 
> ...



          I think you should be careful about quoting posts from years ago, this site was under different ownership then, and a lot more liberal than the current ones.  You've already got me into trouble with quoting another of my posts from three years ago, times have changed Ox, the current readership age is well below what it was in more liberal days and you have to adjust accordingly.


 Be warned, pal.


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## Linton Robinson (Jul 10, 2010)

LOL!




May I quote you?


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## HarryG (Jul 10, 2010)

lin said:


> LOL!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're welcome and thanks.


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## Sam (Jul 10, 2010)

When I retire from my real job, I'll still be writing. I treat my writing as though it were a job, but it doesn't feel like that to me. When you do something you're passionate about, it rarely feels like a job.


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## gregory.k (Jul 11, 2010)

It seems to me there is no universal rule about this sort of thing. I could argue the case that writers gain useful experience as they get older, experience they might be able to translate into better writing. I could argue that the brain gets hard with age and some writers get stuck writing in circles because they can't give up the pen. There are examples of each.

Instead it should be about introspection and quality. As readers we should let the quality of the work speak for itself. As writers we should be able to look into ourselves and know where our writing comes from. If it comes from a need to keep what we once had, to hold on to the last edges of the spotlight, or just because it is what we have always done and we are stuck in some sort of a rut, it may be time for a change.

Sorry if I'm taking this more seriously then I should


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## thewordsmith (Jul 12, 2010)

Too often, top drawer authors don't retire because they are some agent/publisher's meal ticket. They have a name that sells, regardless of the quality of their prose. And, because they are a known commodity, people still buy their books, regardless of how much crap it is. It is only when their reputations begin to flounder and they are no longer a guaranteed sell that they begin to fade into the distance. "Suddenly" they are not in such hot demand. No studios are beating on the agent's door to turn the latest 'masterpiece' into a movie. Stacks of the latest book languish in store rooms. Maybe, for a few, the publisher will indulge them and keep printing 'for old time's sake'. But, eventually, even they will stop throwing good money after bad. This is, after all, a business. And paying for printing but not selling is bad for business.

Some writers still have the spark to write clever, concise, interesting prose when they are even into their nineties. Others perhaps should retire at 23! And still others (Mr. King? Mr. Grisham?) should recognize when they have lost it and retire gracefully. 

But, when you still have the passion, how do you deny the addiction?


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## Linton Robinson (Jul 12, 2010)

Excuse me, but where to get this?   Writers want to stop writing, but are forced to continue by their agents and publishers??????????     
More than the "show me where it says that" I'd just like to hear what mechanism you fantasize for that.  Writers strapped to torture engines and forced to type?  Their families threatened?
Because everybody knows writers are dying to quit writing.

Grisham, by the way, seems to be getting better.  As does Harlan Coben.


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## gregory.k (Jul 12, 2010)

What is a torture engine? Do they strap writers upside-down to the front of locomotives?


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## Linton Robinson (Jul 12, 2010)

The lucky ones.


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## Baron (Jul 12, 2010)

Is this going to be another steampunk thread?


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## The Backward OX (Jul 12, 2010)

*unsubscribes from thread*


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## Linton Robinson (Jul 12, 2010)

Oxpunk apparently.    

I can see that becoming a noted genre, actually.


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## MEShammas (Jul 12, 2010)

I think if they want to "retire," that's fine.


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## thewordsmith (Jul 12, 2010)

lin said:


> Excuse me, but where to get this? Writers want to stop writing, but are forced to continue by their agents and publishers??????????


 
Not exactly what I said, though I can see how it could easily be misconstrued. You are excused. If I may clairfy the 'meal ticket' comment ...
It's not so much that writers want to retire but are constrained from doing so. They simply write past their expiration date because agents tell them how great they are and how this is the next best seller and they are wonderful and whatever platitudes and fawning work for whatever over the hill writer. Writers, like the rest of the world, rely heavily on input from others to make judgment on their own abilities. And, like the rest of the world, we prefer to believe the positive rather than the negative. If a once wonderful writer, now on a downhill slide, hears from his agent that the world _loves_ his work, that is what he will measure himself by. And so, he will continue to write, putting out mediocre prose when, perhaps, he is only recycling old ideas. 

And, btw, the assessment that the writing quality of Grisham and King was diminishing was someone else's estimation, not mine.


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## Linton Robinson (Jul 13, 2010)

thewordsmith said:


> And, btw, the assessment that the writing quality of Grisham and King was diminishing was someone else's estimation, not mine.


 
You said  





> And still others (Mr. King? Mr. Grisham?) should recognize when they  have lost it and retire gracefully.



I'm guessing you get misconstrued a LOT.  Or think so or something.

You have a really peculiar idea of the creative process, and of the writing industry.

But no problem.   Because, know what.  You can just retire from writing any time you feel like it.  Go for it.


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## Sam (Jul 13, 2010)

thewordsmith said:


> Not exactly what I said, though I can see how it could easily be misconstrued. You are excused. If I may clairfy the 'meal ticket' comment ...
> It's not so much that writers want to retire but are constrained from doing so. They simply write past their expiration date because agents tell them how great they are and how this is the next best seller and they are wonderful and whatever platitudes and fawning work for whatever over the hill writer. Writers, like the rest of the world, rely heavily on input from others to make judgment on their own abilities. And, like the rest of the world, we prefer to believe the positive rather than the negative. If a once wonderful writer, now on a downhill slide, hears from his agent that the world _loves_ his work, that is what he will measure himself by. And so, he will continue to write, putting out mediocre prose when, perhaps, he is only recycling old ideas.
> 
> And, btw, the assessment that the writing quality of Grisham and King was diminishing was someone else's estimation, not mine.



Let me get this straight: You think there's an _expiration _date on an author? From where did you glean this nugget of incredible wisdom? Is there an expiration date on musicians, artists, photographers? Do you have substantiating proof that indicates, without any reasonable doubt, that writers get worse with age? Because, actually, it's quite the opposite. The only reason the artists you've mentioned have become stale is because they're forced to punch out two and three books a year. It's got nothing to do with the fact that they're past their expiration date. Try writing two or three quality books a year and see how you get on.


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## thewordsmith (Jul 13, 2010)

lin said:


> I'm guessing you get misconstrued a LOT. Or think so or something.
> 
> You have a really peculiar idea of the creative process, and of the writing industry.
> 
> But no problem. Because, know what. You can just retire from writing any time you feel like it. Go for it.


 
I'm guessing you make enemies a lot. You don't have to be so snarky and you don't know enough about me to be so rude. But, no problem. If it makes you feel better about yourself ...


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## thewordsmith (Jul 13, 2010)

Sam W said:


> Let me get this straight: You think there's an _expiration _date on an author? From where did you glean this nugget of incredible wisdom? Is there an expiration date on musicians, artists, photographers? Do you have substantiating proof that indicates, without any reasonable doubt, that writers get worse with age? Because, actually, it's quite the opposite. The only reason the artists you've mentioned have become stale is because they're forced to punch out two and three books a year. It's got nothing to do with the fact that they're past their expiration date. Try writing two or three quality books a year and see how you get on.



Yeah, actually, there _is_ an expiration date, if you want to be argumentative. It's called diminished mental capacity. It's called Alzheimers. It's called Dimentia. It's also called just plain out of fresh ideas. And, no, writers DON'T necessarily, as you suggest, get better with age. Some do, not all. Some remain sharp and mentally savvy well into their 90's or even past 100 but writers, like the rest of the population, have their fair share of mental deterioration. There is no guarantee that the guy who wrote that blockbuster when he was 38 won't be a withered mental indigent by the time he is 73. And, of course, there is no way of knowing which writers will or will not fall victim to mental deterioration. But there is a sure guarantee that _some_ will and some _won't_.

And why are writers "_forced to punch out two and three books a year_"? I doubt seriously someone is holding a gun to their heads or holding their families hostage with a threat of, "Finish that next book or you kids'll be sent back in a body bag."  (Or are we now back to that concept of being someone else's meal ticket?)

Writers write because they want to. Not all are good at what they do and most of those never get published unless they self-publish. Although, with the advent of POD online pubishing, more and more marginal writers _are_ being published. Doesn't mean they are good, or they should, but that's another debate.


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## Sam (Jul 13, 2010)

thewordsmith said:


> Yeah, actually, there _is_ an expiration date, if you want to be argumentative. It's called diminished mental capacity. It's called Alzheimers. It's called Dimentia. It's also called just plain out of fresh ideas. And, no, writers DON'T necessarily, as you suggest, get better with age. Some do, not all. Some remain sharp and mentally savvy well into their 90's or even past 100 but writers, like the rest of the population, have their fair share of mental deterioration. There is no guarantee that the guy who wrote that blockbuster when he was 38 won't be a withered mental indigent by the time he is 73. And, of course, there is no way of knowing which writers will or will not fall victim to mental deterioration. But there is a sure guarantee that _some_ will and some _won't_.
> 
> And why are writers "_forced to punch out two and three books a year_"? I doubt seriously someone is holding a gun to their heads or holding their families hostage with a threat of, "Finish that next book or you kids'll be sent back in a body bag."  (Or are we now back to that concept of being someone else's meal ticket?)
> 
> Writers write because they want to. Not all are good at what they do and most of those never get published unless they self-publish. Although, with the advent of POD online pubishing, more and more marginal writers _are_ being published. Doesn't mean they are good, or they should, but that's another debate.



Authors sign multi-million dollar contracts which state that they must produce so many books in a fiscal year. They don't produce them, and their contract is terminated. That's why.


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## Divus (Jul 13, 2010)

Guys　
　
It strikes me  that you’ve got this retirement thingie all wrong.
Retirement is freedom. 

No more deadlines
No more doing anything you don’t want to do.
No getting up with a list of things which must be done today 
No schedules
No being nice to people you don’t like

You are excused anything - it wasn’t your fault - you are old.
You don’t have to be drunk to misbehave
You don't ever have to lift anything ever again
You can wear what you like
You can say what you like.

Embrace it - go with the flow - relax Man!

Just remember that when you reach the next stage - the light goes out.

And you lot can write what you like, how you like, when you like.   You are free.

Life is finally marvellous.

PS I’ve been retired for 15 years and I am only just beginning to get the hang of it.


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## Baron (Jul 13, 2010)

Divus said:


> Guys
> 
> It strikes me  that you’ve got this retirement thingie all wrong.
> Retirement is freedom.
> ...


 

Hmm...  I started applying this philosophy when I hit thirty.  Was that too soon?


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## Ilasir Maroa (Jul 13, 2010)

Sam, the authors mentioned may be working under such constraints, but there are plenty of authors who put out that or more with no contract requiring it.


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## Linton Robinson (Jul 13, 2010)

I'm just waiting for the inevitable onset of alzheimers and metal collapse so I can find peace and happiness.  
Meanwhile, I'm racking my already failing brain for examples of novelists who "retired".  Perhaps somebody can help


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## Linton Robinson (Jul 13, 2010)

> You don't have to be so snarky and you don't know enough about me to be  so rude.


No, I don't know anything about you at all.  Because you don't tell us anything.  My feeling is you're not close to the publishing industry and therefore your opinions on this issue are not well-founded.

I'm nostly interested in the topic at hand, not you, personally.  I challenged what you were saying.  And got a little miffed, I guess from your "misconstrued/excused" remarks.

I find the ideas of writers brains rotting past a certain age to be personally offensive, actually.  And you DO know my age and experience because I do mention it.  

But I wasn't posting here to offend you, but to respond to the topic of the post.  Sorry if the way I did it made you feel bad: it wasn't my intention.


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## The Backward OX (Jul 14, 2010)

lin said:


> I'm racking my already failing brain for examples of novelists who "retired". Perhaps somebody can help


 
Margaret Mitchell?


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## garza (Jul 14, 2010)

Different people get old in different ways. Some writers have one good book in them. Harper Lee is one example. She knew she had a winner, and stopped. I've never read the whole story behind that, but whatever kept her from publishing again probably kept her from spoiling a perfect record. King and Grisham should have followed her example from a craft point of view, but not from an economic point of view. Each wrote one good book, and kept revising it and making millions of dollars. Grisham's work is technically good, but in literature classes in the future, when the question is asked, 'what famous author lived and wrote in Oxford, Mississippi?' I do not believe the answer will be John Grisham. 

I apologise for deeply offending all the King and Grisham fans.

As for me, I'll stop selling what I write when people stop paying me to write it. I'll stop writing when the local pathologist, Dr.Mario Estradabran, is called in to do a pm on my remains.

Some of you mention art. That's something I know nothing about. I don't even know what I like.


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## Linton Robinson (Jul 15, 2010)

> Margaret Mitchell?



Yeah, I guess.   JD Salinger,  Thomas Pynchon.   But aren't these more cases or being hermits, ore on-trick woders rather than the kind of retirement suggested here?


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