# Sex Scenes Are Worthless



## luckyscars (Jul 30, 2019)

With very few exceptions, in the age of porn and politics your sexy scene doesn’t do anything except open the door for you to be mocked endlessly for your weird grasp of the other sex’s biology (men like to write about women’s nipples getting hard, women like to write about bizarre musculature configurations). Sex doesn’t show romantic love in any way that walking in the park or going for a coffee cannot. Unless you can write really bloody well, stay away from sex scenes.


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## Thomas Norman (Jul 30, 2019)

I totally agree. Sex scenes are counterproductive in stories and seem to be there simply for the thrill. I have recently posted a short story with a rape in it. I did not describe the rape, my interest was in the aftermath -much more interesting. One piece of advice I received was to make the rape more graphic! It seems; despite the considerable prevalence of explicit sex written, there is still demand. What does that say for modern humanity?


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## Phil Istine (Jul 30, 2019)

It seemed pretty popular the last time I looked, with approaching eight billion people on the planet.
I think that approaching written sex scenes with feelings and allusions is far more erotic than vivid descriptions.  Wording a scene in a manner that draws someone in seems more effective than making it seem like an act of disassociated voyeurism.


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## luckyscars (Jul 30, 2019)

If you have the chops to write it, sure, but most people don’t. They just don’t. Like, even most good writers. Thomas Pynchon, Stephen King...plenty of great writers cant write a good sex scene for shit. 

Outside of erotica, can you identify a sex scene that was both essential to the plot and executed in a manner that was memorable?

And anticipation of the “well yes actually...” crowd: Can you identify five or ten such scenes? Can you identify as many great sex scenes as, say, action or death or other “pivotal” scenes? Probably not. 

So I think the popularity of sex in writing is generally quite overstated.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 30, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> With very few exceptions, in the age of porn and politics your sexy scene doesn’t do anything except open the door for you to be mocked endlessly for your weird grasp of the other sex’s biology (men like to write about women’s nipples getting hard, women like to write about bizarre musculature configurations). Sex doesn’t show romantic love in any way that walking in the park or going for a coffee cannot. Unless you can write really bloody well, stay away from sex scenes.



Aww, lucky, are you having trouble with your ghost erotica? Mr. Incorporeal not able to Git-R-Done? ghosts aren't exactly known for being.... *ahem* firm. Maybe you should go after the standard vampire and werewolf combo? Title them "I Don't Bite.... _Hard_" and "The _Ties_ that Bind"

Visual porn is more a guy's thing; written is more a lady thing. If guys are going to get into the written side, they tend to be hard and fast about it (erotica). Women invest in the long build up before the big finish (a romance or erotic romance).

Maybe you're not familiar with how it works for women, but... we tend to require more_ investment_ to get in the mood. It's not a light switch. It can require _effort_ and _time_. Writing/reading stories of emotional investment is far more likely to get us in the mood than just watching two plastic Barbie people degrading themselves on film. You're plainly okay with regular old exploitation for fun and profit which involves actual sex (porn) despite the actual harm said industry causes and aren't picking apart the crappy writing and nonsensical character building of porn screenplays, so why pick apart lady porn when it doesn't hurt anybody?  

Like all writing, sex scenes take a lot of work, and no matter how hard one tries, there's always some literary prude or literary snob who's just itching to tear that scene apart. Critics are harder on sex scenes than any other type of scene, I think--and so is everyone else seemingly (especially family, coworkers and members of one's church if anyone catches wind you write smut). Even a well written sex scene with deep emotional involvement that is totally necessary to understand the plot can be picked apart _ad nauseum_ by critics--and worse yet, just writing sex can require a pseudonym to protect someone from getting disowned. There are real personal stakes in writing sex for some people. 

I've read a lot of hokey, cheesy, impossible and plain bad sex scenes--so I agree, most are bad and don't add anything necessary, but that doesn't mean that I'd want people to stop writing them. Said scenes might float someone else's boat. Not every scene's going to float mine, and that's okay. You don't go to porn for deep characters and great writing, so why go to smut for it? Why judge literary porn harsher than regular film porn? Why discourage someone from trying to write it? 


Sex can show a lot more than "romantic love," and it can definitely show more than your average "walk in the park" scene. People don't always have sex for love. There's a lot of potential character development that can happen in a sex scene--like shifting power dynamics in the relationship. Someone might have an incompatible fetish, and now the partners have to figure out how to make this work, and therefore, sex is part of a new conflict. Love is a battlefield, but sex can be D Day. 

If all you're after's "romantic love" then maybe the work's better off without giving nitty gritty details--certainly--but if those expectations for good ole hokey "romantic love" are subverted, then I'd say go for it. See if it works, and then take it out if it doesn't. Sex doesn't have to end with simultaneous orgasms and exploding stars and other junk like that--it can be messy, painful, lackluster, unfinished, disappointing, mundane, mechanical, cold, shocking, revolting. It can feel like a hot bath or an ice pick to the face. Sex can make you look at a partner differently or even make you look at yourself differently. Why does it have to be different in fiction?


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## JustRob (Jul 30, 2019)

May I modify the title statement to read that "The sex in scenes is worthless"? I certainly write scenes where the action involves sex, but that is mainly implied and my words cover other aspects such as what the participants say, think and feel. In this respect I follow the old principle that sex is ten percent friction and ninety percent imagination and the ten percent can just be taken for granted. However, I find it unrealistic and a little old fashioned for a novel to suggest that a romantic walk can evoke the same depth of feeling that copulation can. Although both a romantic walk and my presentation of a sex scene may predominantly involve the couple talking, apparently unrealistically continuously throughout, the climax in the latter has far more impact than in the former unless the lady in question has been reading a lot of Mills and Boon novels and is likely to swoon merely from a single kiss.

I agree that one should only attempt to write sex scenes if one is experienced enough and feels confident about it and even then one should have a clear purpose in mind and ideally a novel approach. Much like any other activity in a story, sex can only be a setting, not the primary objective. 

My original novel had two parts to it and each had a specific sex scene in it. Any others were mentioned simply in passing and not dwelt on. In part one the key sex scene involved the young woman using her avatar on the screen of her mind-reading computer to communicate with the young man while she lay naked and unmoving in front of him. The chapter title was tellingly "Body or mind". As a form of foreplay she used his conversation with her avatar to tempt him away from her actual physical body, as though making him reveal whether he wanted her for her body or mind. Ultimately he opted for her body, but the text suggested that her mind and body were in reality so closely connected that he was always interacting with both at once. This was emphasised when he used her bare abdomen as a touch panel to control the computer screen, but thought better of trying to type on it. This scene was therefore not so much a simple portrayal of sex but of its component parts.

In the second part of the novel the young woman (not the same one as in part one) wants to couple with the young man both bodily and mentally, so during the physical process they indulge in equally intimate dialogue, which actually describes many of the usual aspects of living together. This covers such routine subjects as sharing washing machines, bathrooms, cars, trips out and bank accounts, in fact all the little things that bring a couple together mentally as well as physically. The scene ends with both their bodies and minds entirely fused into a single fantastic entity that they subsequently name "The Beast", partly a reference to the "beast with two backs". The story is after all a science fantasy. 

I was fortunate that an American university lecturer on English literature offered to read my draft novel for free and his comment on this particular scene was, somewhat to my surprise, as follows.

"Graphic, powerful depiction of the act of love through her bodily reactions—very good here, romantic, violent, erotic, physiological, and philosophical all at one go."

Given that his comments had extended elsewhere to pointing out missing commas his remark here blew me away. No doubt in his time he had encountered many failed attempts by his students to write convincing sex scenes, so he welcomed the rare opportunity to praise one. I can only suggest then that members be warned that successful sex scenes that deliver what is actually needed may indeed be a rarity. However, just as with any other aspect of writing the key point is to keep on practising if you want to do the thing at all. 

As for the problem of writing from the other sex's point of view, I recommend substantial personal research into that. Then, when you find the time and inclination to drag yourself away from your essential research, try writing about what you have learned, but not before. I lived with an angel for almost half a century before I tried writing fiction, so it may be no surprise that I apparently got at least one decent sex scene out of that. Don't misunderstand why I call her an angel though.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 30, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> If you have the chops to write it, sure, but most people don’t. They just don’t. Like, even most good writers. Thomas Pynchon, Stephen King...plenty of great writers cant write a good sex scene for shit.
> 
> Outside of erotica, can you identify a sex scene that was both essential to the plot and executed in a manner that was memorable?
> 
> ...


Have you considered that your mentality might actually be keeping such scenes from being written? You might be part of the problem instead of the solution here. 

I don't read much free-sex-included fiction, so I'm not likely to be able to point it out, but a small number of "good" sex scenes doesn't make them an unworthy goal in writing. Yes, the vast majority are as fake and unnecessary as the entire pornography industry, but it doesn't make them unable to fulfill their intentions or demean them as a worthy literary goal, if that's your shtick. 

Michael Crichton in Disclosure has a sex scene which is absolutely necessary for the plot, and I believe he handled it very well.


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## Aquilo (Jul 30, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> With very few exceptions, in the age of porn and politics your sexy scene doesn’t do anything except open the door for you to be mocked endlessly for your weird grasp of the other sex’s biology (men like to write about women’s nipples getting hard, women like to write about bizarre musculature configurations). Sex doesn’t show romantic love in any way that walking in the park or going for a coffee cannot. Unless you can write really bloody well, stay away from sex scenes.



People don't just walk, hold hands, and have coffee under the moonlight as church-goers do the whole 'save the world' chorus in the distance. They kiss, they touch, they get naked and dirty. Me -- I like reading both: seeing couple have coffee or have sex, mostly because the connector is, well, a damn good story that shows relationship diversity. Just because you don't think sex does anything for relationship-development, that's your opinion to have. But for me, just having a couple have coffee and walk, with every author avoiding stepping outside of that is, well, very limited writing ability to me. 

If you have the talent for it, if it forwards plot, character-building, world-building, relationship-building -- don't be fooled by nay-sayers who say it does nothing to help portray a relationship. It can and it does.



Thomas Norman said:


> One piece of advice I received was to make the rape more graphic! It seems; despite the considerable prevalence of explicit sex written, there is still demand. What does that say for modern humanity?



This show a lack of knowledge of publication. No one I know reads rape for titillation. No publisher in my genre will publish rape for titillation. If it's on-page, it's done to show, not tell, and also convey the psychological pressure and aftereffects. Writing rape for titillation will get you banned on Amazon, which is why, especially in romance, it's just not done for titillation. Also please don't try and shame readers: they don't read for titillation when it comes to rape. That's like saying all authors who write about rape only write it for titillation. Because you've written rape, you'd find that comment offensive, just like any reader would.

And in general (generic you, here), please don't let this digress into shaming readers/authors for reading/writing sex in fiction. You wouldn't do it to horror readers who like horror, or sci-fi readers who like sci-fi.

People like sex, it's what we do. It's what you do (when you're old enough!). Either write about it or don't write about it. That's the simple answer. But shaming readers/authors in a blanket statement really does do nothing but show your contempt of sex in fiction. Fine if you don't have sex in real life, but if not and you get naked occasionally or bonk like bunnies, I'm not only jealous -- but you're a hypocrite.


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## JustRob (Jul 30, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> Outside of erotica, can you identify a sex scene that was both essential to the plot and executed in a manner that was memorable?



I think that with my lack of modesty in my previous post I just did and that was only within my own writing and in the opinion of someone due my respect and that of many others. I must therefore assume that far better writers have also achieved the same to great effect.


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## Aquilo (Jul 30, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> Outside of erotica, can you identify a sex scene that was both essential to the plot and executed in a manner that was memorable?



Can you name ten novels where a couple having a coffee is absolutely essential to the story and memorable? You did say that was better. 

In all honesty: sex... coffee... they really are just small pieces to the whole dynamic story puzzle: and not every piece needs to be life or death explosive elements. Just a portrayal of living.

But as for a novel outside of Erotic:

In the Absence of Light: a male adult who's autistic who has sex for the first time. He takes his partner out into a field in pitch blackness and asks him to sit a while in the darkness so his partner can see him without all his complications: just experience. The sex after that... God... it choked me up. It was so beautiful and really portrayed how autistic people see life through a different window to us, and if we just take five minutes to step into their window and see life through theirs, with the absence of light, just touch, scent, sound...


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## luckyscars (Jul 30, 2019)

Aquilo said:


> Can you name ten novels where a couple having a coffee is absolutely essential to the story and memorable? You did say that was better.
> 
> In all honesty: sex... coffee... they really are just small pieces to the whole dynamic story puzzle: and not every piece needs to be life or death explosive elements. Just a portrayal of living.
> 
> ...



Actually I didn’t say coffee scenes are better. You’re misquoting me again - not the first time. I said there are few occasions where describing sex (a sex scene) is necessary, or if it is necessary, done well. The coffee thing was to point out sex is actually used pretty lazily - it’s very obvious.

Yes I am aware there will be exceptions to this and I am intentionally being tongue in cheek with the absolutist verbiage (sorry if that didn’t come across) the point is that 99.9% of sex scenes are awful in design, execution or frequently all of the above. They’re also often misogynistic or shallow which is another aspect that is problematic. Hope that clears it up.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 30, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> Actually I didn’t say coffee scenes are better. You’re misquoting me again - not the first time. I said there are few occasions where describing sex (a sex scene) is necessary, or if it is necessary, done well. The coffee thing was to point out sex is actually used pretty lazily - it’s very obvious.
> 
> Yes I am aware there will be exceptions to this and I am intentionally being tongue in cheek with the absolutist verbiage (sorry if that didn’t come across) the point is that 99.9% of sex scenes are awful in design, execution or frequently all of the above. They’re also often misogynistic or shallow which is another aspect that is problematic. Hope that clears it up.



There are a lot of lazy, poorly executed death and action scenes, too, but you're not harping on those. I found most of those as terrible as you find sex scenes, come to think of it. Action scenes that aren't interesting, deaths that meaningless and cliche, and flat lifeless sex... Yup, bad writing permeates even the most interesting parts of life. Whodathunkit? 



You know, speaking of sex scenes and your assertion that they're pretty much all terrible, lazy and worthless... if I were a lesser writer, I'd totally dare you to take on Pinocchio... There's at least "five to ten" "well-written" sex scenes that are totally integral to the plot... I mean, with your voracious reading skills and my being so kind as to bookmark sex scenes with headers over the chapters... and 54K so far, it wouldn't be nuttin' for you to read... and you could totally tear it apart, and I'd still get valuable criticism... but..._ Naaaaaaaahhhh_, I'm not _that_ kinda girl. I ain't some shameless plugger who'd totally triple dog dare somebody to put his money where his mouth is... I'd be, like, a shameless literary hussy, if I did that, which I'm totally not doing at all :sneakiness:


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## Aquilo (Jul 30, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> Actually I didn’t say coffee scenes are better. You’re misquoting me again - not the first time. I said there are few occasions where describing sex (a sex scene) is necessary, or if it is necessary, done well. The coffee thing was to point out sex is actually used pretty lazily - it’s very obvious.



A few occasions? You said a few occasions, huh? Your title isn't "sex scenes are worthless', not... "some sex scenes are worthless?" Yeah, I can really see how I can misinterpret that... 



> Yes I am aware there will be exceptions to this and I am intentionally being tongue in cheek with the absolutist verbiage (sorry if that didn’t come across) the point is that 99.9% of sex scenes are awful in design, execution or frequently all of the above. They’re also often misogynistic or shallow which is another aspect that is problematic. Hope that clears it up.



99%, huh? See, we're back to more than just a few, unless I'm misquoting you there too? No, you're not coming across as tongue in cheek, and I mean that sincerely. I can sit and name you hundreds of novels outside of erotica who's sex scenes are vital to plot. In fact, I can tell you that behind the scenes with romance publishers it's a classifications category. It has to be, because readers either want fade to black and sex not vital to plot, or moderate sex not vital to plot, or sex that is essential to plot etc, and they have  to be tagged for marketing purposes. So your 99% opinion? It's not based on knowledge of publishing when it comes to publishing sex in novels. Unless you see romance as erotica? In which case, that really does show you don't know what you're talking about here. Or are you talking about published v unpublished? In which case, you really ought to say.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 30, 2019)

You know, lucky, I think that might be the fastest way to get people to show you their smut (and if not flaunt it, hide it far away from you). 

Telling people in advance that they shouldn't write sex scenes unless they're the most super-duper writers is basically flashing a neon sign that says "GIMME ALL OF IT! I WANT YOUR SMUT! FLOOD ME WITH SMUT! I WISH TO ROLL IN THE SMUT!"--provided said writers have any confidence and a competitive spirit. To those poor creatures with no confidence in their sex scenes, it reads more like "YOU'RE A BAD WRITER AND A DIRTY BOY FOR WRITING THAT SMUT! UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD YOU EVER WRITE THE SMUT! IT IS BAD FOR YOUR SOUL, AND YOU ARE TERRIBLE AT IT!" 

The same sort of thing happens any time a person makes a blanket value statement, when you think about it. If you said "Murder scenes are dumb," you'd get spammed with awesome murder scenes (or shame the less confident writers into staying shut up about that murder scene they were really proud of or maybe even keep them from seeking help on one). "Death scenes are stupid" would net you great death scenes from literary giants and fellow posters. "Football is pointless" would net you all kinds of tales about how great it is from its fans. You'll get people who agree with you on almost anything, but the really motivated posters are always going to be the people who disagree, when you think about it.


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## JustRob (Jul 30, 2019)

"With my body I thee worship." Show, don't tell, that then.


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## Terry D (Jul 30, 2019)

Thomas Norman said:


> I totally agree. Sex scenes are counterproductive in stories and seem to be there simply for the thrill. I have recently posted a short story with a rape in it. I did not describe the rape, my interest was in the aftermath -much more interesting. One piece of advice I received was to make the rape more graphic! It seems; despite the considerable prevalence of explicit sex written, there is still demand. What does that say for modern humanity?



Rape is not sex. Rape is violence using sex as its weapon.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 30, 2019)

Redacted


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## luckyscars (Jul 30, 2019)

Sex scenes to a rape debate in less than twenty posts! Yeah. This thread is already regrettable. Sorry everybody, I thought we could cope with it.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 30, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> Sex scenes to a rape debate in less than twenty posts! Yeah. This thread is already regrettable. Sorry everybody, I thought we could cope with it.




I'm fine not talking about it further, if you prefer (I prefer not talking about it, actually, which is why I ignored the first rape-related comment). 


How's that ghost erotica coming?


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## Rojack79 (Jul 30, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> With very few exceptions, in the age of porn and politics your sexy scene doesn’t do anything except open the door for you to be mocked endlessly for your weird grasp of the other sex’s biology (men like to write about women’s nipples getting hard, women like to write about bizarre musculature configurations). Sex doesn’t show romantic love in any way that walking in the park or going for a coffee cannot. Unless you can write really bloody well, stay away from sex scenes.



I simply must put in my two sence on this discussion. 1) This should have been titled "Sex Scenes In Fiction, Are they Useless or not?" Or some derivative of that title should have been used. That would not have stirred up so much controversy. 2) You really need to try and have an open mind for others knowledge and opinions on the subject instead of just using a blanket statement to shoehorn your opinion down others throats.

 I personally have quite a few sex scenes in my upcoming novel that are critical to plot at hand. And that's just the first book mind you. I've written very few sex scenes in my life. Like probably 3-4. Does that make me bad at them? No. Because I know what they need to be. They are far more intimate than a walk on the beach or going out to get coffee or holding hands. 

For me sex is the ultimate expression of two people's love for one another. It is raw, unfiltered, passionate and absolutely blissful. It says "hay I love you enough to make myself completely vulnerable to you and share everything that I am down to the very fiber of my being with you and you alone!" Now exactly can that be a bad thing for a "first time" writer to want to write?


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## Rojack79 (Jul 30, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> Sex scenes to a rape debate in less than twenty posts! Yeah. This thread is already regrettable. Sorry everybody, I thought we could cope with it.



Most of us can cope with it. Some of us however aren't mature enough to know the difference between Sex & Rape.


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## Cephus (Jul 30, 2019)

I know someone who occasionally writes erotica on Amazon and he says that most people who do so, they have no clue what they're talking about and they are writing for an audience who, likewise, has no idea what they're talking about. It's virgins writing porn for virgins. It's people with no personal experience in the subject matter writing for people who simply don't know any better. That's really kind of sad.


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## JustRob (Jul 30, 2019)

Cephus said:


> It's people with no personal experience in the subject matter writing for people who simply don't know any better. That's really kind of sad.



Now why did I think of the reviews for _Fifty Shades of Grey_ just then?


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## Rojack79 (Jul 30, 2019)

JustRob said:


> Now why did I think of the reviews for _Fifty Shades of Grey_ just then?



YESS! I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE!


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## Cephus (Jul 30, 2019)

JustRob said:


> Now why did I think of the reviews for _Fifty Shades of Grey_ just then?



Because it started off as bad Twilight fanfic?


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## Rojack79 (Jul 30, 2019)

Cephus said:


> Because it started off as bad Twilight fanfic?



Correction it started off as a bad piece of fiction period. I have nothing against fanfiction (considering I myself indulge in writing some every now and then.) but even I like to take some original liberty's with the story. Fifty Shades is nothing more than that author ripping off The Twilight series and then "just to be original" let's add copious amounts of sex. That's not original nor do I even consider it erotica. I see it as nothing more than porn put to paper.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 30, 2019)

Cephus said:


> Because it started off as bad Twilight fanfic?



I was thinking about that earlier. Nobody expects great things from fanfic. Those really bad sex scenes are basically fanfic caliber, even if they're not fanfic (quite a few start off as fanfic). If you judge any kind of scene by the vast majority of works out there... Most fiction is terrible. Blame the Internet. Some noobs got themselves a word processor, beat out a story and think they're going to be a bestseller, so up it goes to the forums and self-publishing sites. The whole thing's terrible, and yes, quite often, the sex is especially laughable. Those are probably my favorite sex scenes though, in all honesty. The anatomically impossible, misspelled totally-written-by-a-virgin scenes. Unless they get famous and make a bunch of money and people tell them the scene's awesome... then I got issues. 

If we're judging all sex scenes by My Immortal standards, however, then, _daaaammmn_, ain't we a bunch of Shakespeares?

[video=youtube;qdv6Q68EutU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdv6Q68EutU[/video]
"And then he put his thingie in my you-know-what, and we did it for the first time"


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## luckyscars (Jul 30, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> I'm fine not talking about it further, if you prefer (I prefer not talking about it, actually, which is why I ignored the first rape-related comment).
> 
> 
> How's that ghost erotica coming?



Nothing to do with my preferences and everything to do with the rules. Debates are not allowed.

Also, you can knock it off with the ghost erotica thing now. It was a joke that clearly went “whoosh”.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 30, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> Nothing to do with my preferences and everything to do with the rules. Debates are not allowed.
> 
> Also, you can knock it off with the ghost erotica thing now. It was a joke that clearly went “whoosh”.



DIBBS!! I call dibbs in writing the ghost erotica story then!


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## Aquilo (Jul 30, 2019)

Cephus said:


> I know someone who occasionally writes erotica on Amazon and he says...



I only need to know he writes it occasionally, thanks, mate. Tells me exactly what I need to know about his knowledge on the subject. And if all you're doing is regurgitating someone else's opinion who only writes erotica... occasionally, it tells me about yours too. The subject is about sex in fiction in general, across all genres, unless you think one sex scene makes it erotica?


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## SueC (Jul 30, 2019)

> Originally Posted by *luckyscars*
> 
> 
> Outside of erotica, can you identify a sex scene that was both essential to the plot and executed in a manner that was memorable?



Man, this thread is like _kill the messenger_. Luckyscars, I thought it an honest observation, worthy of discussion. How it got to the point it did, I think, is because some are in a mood to argue, become personal - or something. Lets stop that, okay?

So, getting back to the above question, I agree with most of the observation, but I did have to comment on the early _Outlander_ books by Diane Gabaldon. There was such a great build up between the two main characters for quite a while, that by the time the sex came along - well, I thought very well-written and effective. It did not, however, translate as well on screen. That may have been because I had already read the books and knew what was coming, not sure. I agree that generally speaking, sex scenes HAVE to be integral to the story line or they only look like filler. It is so common now for first dates to turn into first sex, that it is even more tricky to make them even noticeable, let alone memorable. I wish that wasn't the case, but there you have it.

I saw the movie _Yesterday_ yesterday (ha!) and actually thought it was very brave toward the end of the movie for one of the characters to refuse sex because she didn't want a one night stand. It would be great if, someday, sex became more obscure, but I don't see that happening any time soon. Boo.

My two cents.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 30, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> Nothing to do with my preferences and everything to do with the rules. Debates are not allowed.
> 
> Also, you can knock it off with the ghost erotica thing now. It was a joke that clearly went “whoosh”.


I mean, why answer PMs or be even kind of understanding with people who are being 100% sincere with you. 

I redacted it. There.


But I'm not stopping with the ghost erotica. The idea of you writing ghost erotica is funny, so I'm playing with it. *neener*neener* I mean, it almost makes it sound like you have a soul or something. Or a sense of humor.

I didn't want to play with it too much in the off chance you were actually sincerely writing it (which you've repeatedly refused to clarify), but man, now _the gloves are off!_ I can totally, _mercilessly_ dive into this joke now.


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## Aquilo (Jul 30, 2019)

SueC said:


> Man, this thread is like _kill the messenger_. Luckyscars, I thought it an honest observation, worthy of discussion. How it got to the point it did, I think, is because some are in a mood to argue, become personal - or something. Lets stop that, okay?



No, Sue. I'm talking as an author here who writes sex scenes. The question you quoted wasn't even in the original post. Lucky's original post was a blanket statement that has the potential to offend any author who writes a sex scene. If people are in the mood to argue, it's because of the way the original post was addressed. You can't blame members for reacting adversely to that.


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## luckyscars (Jul 30, 2019)

Aquilo said:


> No, Sue. I'm talking as an author here who writes sex scenes. The question you quoted wasn't even in the original post. Lucky's original post was a blanket statement that has the potential to offend any author who writes a sex scene. If people are in the mood to argue, it's because of the way the original post was addressed. You can't blame members for reacting adversely to that.



It was meant as an opinion rather than blanket statement, one that was off the cuff and not necessarily one I was going to die on a hill for.

The thing is, about opinions, is sometimes they’re better said plain. Clearly defined, sometimes controversial or provocative, statements as opposed to equivocations or pandering tend to lead to easier discussions, because it’s easier to agree/disagree for some than to create a new view. Most discussion threads on this forum lately have included maybe six people. I think we should maybe try to draw in ideas rather than snap at people over technicalities. YMMV.

In any case, my main point stands. Most sex scenes are badly envisioned, executed or both. There’s entire websites and awards devoted to bad sex writing. So yes, I absolutely say avoid them...unless they are inspired or interesting (a penis in a vagina or anus is usually neither but an autistic sex scene could be) then chances are they are just padding.

As far as this being a blanket statement: Terry D made this point in another post recently, that in writing we often talk about rules and generally it should be assumed they aren’t blanket absolutes for every situation ever. If I need to add a disclaimer every time I say something I can. But I’d like to think people on here are intelligent enough not to get sore.

Anyway, hope this explains somewhat and the personal abuse and general negativity can stop forthwith.


----------



## Terry D (Jul 30, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> If I need to add a disclaimer every time I say something I can. But I’d like to think people on here are intelligent enough not to get sore.


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## SueC (Jul 30, 2019)

> Originally quoted by Aquilo. "Lucky's original post was a blanket statement that has the potential to offend any author who writes a sex scene."



Aquilo,
I think most of us have been on this forum long enough to be able to discuss an adverse opinion in a way that is not argumentative. In my last post, I felt I answered the question that was asked by Luckyscars, nothing more. If anything, I would think the OP would have made you feel a sense of strength in your vision of writing sex scenes successfully, but I'm sorry to hear that you were offended.


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## velo (Jul 30, 2019)

*::: MODERATOR NOTE ::: 

This thread has gotten personal or close to it several times.  This is a sensitive but valid topic relating to writing.  Please take extra care to ensure your responses are contributing to the discussion in productive ways and are not personal in nature as regards other WF members.  

Mods and Admins are watching this thread closely.  If personal comments continue the thread may be locked and/or other actions may be taken as appropriate.  

Thank you.  *


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## seigfried007 (Jul 30, 2019)

SueC said:


> Aquilo,
> I think most of us have been on this forum long enough to be able to discuss an adverse opinion in a way that is not argumentative. In my last post, I felt I answered the question that was asked by Luckyscars, nothing more. If anything, I would think the OP would have made you feel a sense of strength in your vision of writing sex scenes successfully, but I'm sorry to hear that you were offended.



This is something that I was trying to get at earlier: Blanket Statement: "99.9999% of X is Bad" will automatically divide the audience into two broad groups: people who agree (X is pretty much always bad), people who disagree (X isn't bad). People who disagree will be further divided: "The author is implying that my work is bad because the odds aren't in my favor with a huge blanket statement like that", "I'm a literary god of X, take _that_" and "Holy cow, this important staff person just said X is bad, so I shouldn't write it or post it or ask for help with it." 

So you'll get bootlickers, people who are offended because they feel that their work and genre are being insulted, people who are confident in their body of work but will still argue, and people who won't say anything because they're ashamed and/or insecure. Then, there's yet another type that will show up in the din of battle: the righteous hero who argues and gets offended because--while they're confident in their work--they feel the need to stand up for those who are insecure or hurt. It's a recipe for disaster, and everyone knew that just seeing the title.

For whatever reason, sex scenes are the most commonly picked on of all scenes. All the prudes unite for the national punching bag festival around smut writers! They've got their own Literary Review Award for Fiction in Bad Writing. They're done badly everywhere--but so are _every other kind of scene_. No other kind of scene gets this treatment. Thus, with untold pressures against writing sex scenes, many authors elect to not write them at all or fail to post them anywhere. It's a small wonder why with this kind of mentality. 

This isn't a "Hey, let's discuss how to make your sex scene extra shiny" thread. It's not here to encourage writers to shine those scenes up, and the language has been very uncomplimentary to the entire craft. It's shutting people down for having the audacity to put their scenes forward. Even literary gods of X have to start somewhere, and we were all noobs once.


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## Cephus (Jul 30, 2019)

Aquilo said:


> I only need to know he writes it occasionally, thanks, mate. Tells me exactly what I need to know about his knowledge on the subject. And if all you're doing is regurgitating someone else's opinion who only writes erotica... occasionally, it tells me about yours too. The subject is about sex in fiction in general, across all genres, unless you think one sex scene makes it erotica?



Didn't say only, he's a full time professional author. Erotica, like it or not, pays a lot of money without a lot of work. It's why there's so much of it out there. You sound pretty defensive. Why is that?


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## Rojack79 (Jul 30, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> This is something that I was trying to get at earlier: Blanket Statement: "99.9999% of X is Bad" will automatically divide the audience into two broad groups: people who agree (X is pretty much always bad), people who disagree (X isn't bad). People who disagree will be further divided: "The author is implying that my work is bad because the odds aren't in my favor with a huge blanket statement like that", "I'm a literary god of X, take _that_" and "Holy cow, this important staff person just said X is bad, so I shouldn't write it or post it or ask for help with it."
> 
> So you'll get bootlickers, people who are offended because they feel that their work and genre are being insulted, people who are confident in their body of work but will still argue, and people who won't say anything because they're ashamed and/or insecure. Then, there's yet another type that will show up in the din of battle: the righteous hero who argues and gets offended because--while they're confident in their work--they feel the need to stand up for those who are insecure or hurt. It's a recipe for disaster, and everyone knew that just seeing the title.
> 
> ...



This i can heavily agree with. I think that the subject could have been brought up in a more friendly tone and manner. Instead we get blanket statement (All sex scenes are bad). In my opinion this is not the way to start a thread. Start one by asking a question and invite others to share their opinions regardless of any bias you might have on the subject. That's the way you start a discussion, not a debate.


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## luckyscars (Jul 30, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> This i can heavily agree with. I think that the subject could have been brought up in a more friendly tone and manner. Instead we get blanket statement (All sex scenes are bad). In my opinion this is not the way to start a thread. Start one by asking a question and invite others to share their opinions regardless of any bias you might have on the subject. That's the way you start a discussion, not a debate.



Nobody said all sex scenes are bad. What are you talking about? Now you’re making blanket (and incorrect) statements.

I regularly expressed its a case of “most not all”. I clarified that repeatedly. Please feel free to go back and read my posts carefully to understand the position you are arguing so passionately against  - or at least read the last one where I explained why I phrased it how I did. Otherwise you’re straw manning. Bigly.

Oh and, by the way, Rojack, you don’t get to tell me how to express my own opinions. I’m genuinely regretful if you got hurt feelings, but that’s all you’re getting. So maybe rather than engaging in circular whining about how terribly unfriendly I am it might be an idea to start that discussion you claim to want.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 30, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> Un, nobody said all sex scenes are bad. What are you talking about? Now you’re making blanket (and incorrect) statements.


 
I must fix my statement. I should have clarified that i was talking about the title of this thread not your post in general. 



luckyscars said:


> I regularly expressed its a case of “most not all”. I clarified that repeatedly. Please feel free to go back and read my posts carefully to understand the position you are arguing so passionately against  - or at least read the last one where I explained why I phrased it how I did. Otherwise you’re straw manning. Bigly.


 Is the name calling really necessary? No so let's be mature about this in the future please.



luckyscars said:


> Oh and, by the way, Rojack, you don’t get to tell me how to express my own opinions. I’m genuinely regretful if you got hurt feelings, but that’s all you’re getting. So maybe rather than engaging in circular whining about how terribly unfriendly I am it might be an idea to start that discussion you claim to want.


 I'm not telling you how to "express your opinion". I'm merely stating that all of this could have been handled better on your part so as to not instigate an argument because in the end you are the one who started this thread so it's at least partially up to you to fix the argumentative behavior.


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## TKent (Jul 30, 2019)

Toni Morrison, The Bluest Eye
Erica Jong, Fear of Flying
Aimee Bender, The Girl in the Flammable Suite (multiple in this story collection)
Haruki Murakami, Wind-Up Bird Chronicle
Joyce Carol Oates, Blonde


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## seigfried007 (Jul 30, 2019)

TKent said:


> Toni Morrison, The Bluest Eye
> Erica Jong, Fear of Flying
> Aimee Bender, The Girl in the Flammable Suite (multiple in this story collection)
> Haruki Murakami, Wind-Up Bird Chronicle
> Joyce Carol Oates, Blonde



You know what's really sad? I think these authors have won that Bad Sex in Fiction Award.

Anybody see what I'm talking about here? One person's "OMG, this is amazing, life-changing art!" is another person's "OMG, this is so stupid!"

I've never seen the kind of craziness around any other kind of scene. I've actually got a thread in the Red Light Room that specifically chronicles my difficulty writing sex scenes which are necessary to the plot, and I'm sure I'm not the only person who has felt overwhelmingly embarrassed or even afraid to come out and say, "I wrote a sex scene." Nobody has this reaction to writing death or explosions or action sequences. Why does sex have to be treated so harshly?


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## luckyscars (Jul 30, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> I must fix my statement. I should have clarified that i was talking about the title of this thread not your post in general.
> 
> Is the name calling really necessary? No so let's be mature about this in the future please.
> 
> I'm not telling you how to "express your opinion". I'm merely stating that all of this could have been handled better on your part so as to not instigate an argument because in the end you are the one who started this thread so it's at least partially up to you to fix the argumentative behavior.



Um what names did I call you? None. And believe me when I say that was an exercise in extreme restraint on my part... 

It is most definitely not up to me to fix the fact you're argumentative, especially when I clarified what I meant back on page 1. You’re not a toddler and I’m not your mom. Don’t like my tone? Don’t post on a thread I start, or report if it breaks the rules. Those are your two options. Otherwise go cry somewhere else because I give not a flying fig. I’m not interested in enrolling at your finishing school. 

I started this thread to discuss a position I put forward and deliberately made it blunt and provocative so as to....aw hell, never mind, I’m out. Have fun, I guess!


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## Irwin (Jul 30, 2019)

I have three sex scenes in my novel, but they're not overly explicit. The way I see it, if it's important for the story, it needs to be there, just like the characters eating dinner or going to the bathroom. 

My novel is about two 20 y/o guys, and guys at that age are typically preoccupied with sex, so I had no choice. I had to do it! It wasn't my fault!


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## TKent (Jul 30, 2019)

Definitely subjective. Obviously I'd need to reread but at the time these were all exceptional books to me, and I didn't think the sex was handled poorly.



seigfried007 said:


> You know what's really sad? I think these authors have won that Bad Sex in Fiction Award.
> 
> Anybody see what I'm talking about here? One person's "OMG, this is amazing, life-changing art!" is another person's "OMG, this is so stupid!"
> 
> I've never seen the kind of craziness around any other kind of scene. I've actually got a thread in the Red Light Room that specifically chronicles my difficulty writing sex scenes which are necessary to the plot, and I'm sure I'm not the only person who has felt overwhelmingly embarrassed or even afraid to come out and say, "I wrote a sex scene." Nobody has this reaction to writing death or explosions or action sequences. Why does sex have to be treated so harshly?


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## Aquilo (Jul 30, 2019)

SueC said:


> Aquilo,
> If anything, I would think the OP would have made you feel a sense of strength in your vision of writing sex scenes successfully



Why would you think that? Lucky's not an expert on writing sex scenes, yet claims easily that "Sex scenes are worthless", not _some_ sex scenes -- 99% of sex scenes. That's not reverse psychology, that's not an attempt at tongue-in-cheek, that's saying I should take strength and advice from the cook who's looking at my broken-down car and trying to fix it with a rolling pin and pastry.

Lucky, have you written a sex scene? If we're talking whether sex scenes are worthless, I'd really like to know what your experience is as an author on this topic.




Cephus said:


> Didn't say only, he's a full time professional author. Erotica, like it or not, pays a lot of money without a lot of work. It's why there's so much of it out there. You sound pretty defensive. Why is that?



I don't read or write erotica. But I have respect for those who do. What you call defensive, I call _no_ to shaming authors or readers.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 30, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> Um what names did I call you? None. And believe me when I say that was an exercise in extreme restraint on my part...


 So that Bigly bit at the end of your other sentence wasn't a dig at me in any way? Ok I can accept that. Just take a closer look at your post next time so we don't have these kind of miscommunications.



luckyscars said:


> It is most definitely not up to me to fix the fact you're argumentative, especially when I clarified what I meant back on page 1. You’re not a toddler and I’m not your mom. Don’t like my tone? Don’t post on a thread I start, or report if it breaks the rules. Those are your two options. Otherwise go cry somewhere else because I give not a flying fig. I’m not interested in enrolling at your finishing school.


 And how exactly have i been argumentative? I've offered my opinion along with everyone else and have been at best fairly neutral in my responses.



luckyscars said:


> I started this thread to discuss a position I put forward and deliberately made it blunt and provocative so as to....aw hell, never mind, I’m out. Have fun, I guess!


 so as to what? Be a troll? start an argument? If you had the intent of starting an argument you got it with this thread. If you didn't want an argument to start then look over your work and see how you can word it so that this doesn't happen. It's just that simple.


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## luckyscars (Jul 30, 2019)

Aquilo said:


> Why would you think that? Lucky's not an expert on writing sex scenes, yet claims easily that "Sex scenes are worthless", not _some_ sex scenes -- 99% of sex scenes. That's not reverse psychology, that's not an attempt at tongue-in-cheek, that's saying I should take strength and advice from the cook who's looking at my broken-down car and trying to fix it with a rolling pin and pastry.
> 
> Lucky, have you written a sex scene? If we're talking whether sex scenes are worthless, I'd really like to know what your experience is as an author on this topic.
> .



Okay, final time.

From the point of view of being “technically correct”, my OP was not...quite accurate. There, happy? I admitted it!!!

I didn’t put “some sex scenes”

I put 99.9% and, no, that data doesn’t come from an academic source. Or any source. It was a figure of speech. Naughty. 

I said lots of things that you or anybody else with half a brain and google could probably poke al the holes in you wanted.

And for that......I am very sorry. I shall wear my hair shirt with pride. It was clearly a mistake saying something that wasn’t totally going to hold up in court on a forum and the fact that I repeatedly explained and clarified what I meant (and am doing so again!) is clearly not good enough.

Aquilo, I’m sure your sex scenes are great. But see, mine aren’t. 

You know who else’s aren’t? 

These guys: https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2018/nov/30/bad-sex-award-2018-the-contenders-in-quotes

Now here’s one thing I’ll say, because I really don’t want to get into pissing contests: All of those are good writers. That’s kind of the point. The thing is, they’re really good writers and yet despite having all that talent they have managed to find themselves mocked by a newspaper over scenes that may have not even been needed. Or at least could have been done (much) better.

For Murakami or James Frey, a shitty sex scene doesn’t matter. They’re already famous and rich. It’s almost a novelty. 

For Jim trying to get his first novel sold? A cringey sex scene = a fucking death sentence. 

So when I hear people on this forum and others say “I’ve got three sex scenes in my WIP” I shudder. Not because their sex writing is necessarily bad, but because it is quite likely to be and, if it is, it stands to reason it may well become a hindrance, if not a source of absolute mockery, which would be not good for them or their work. 

So it makes sense to ask yourself, as a writer, if such a scene is (1) definitely necessary and (2) if you have the ability to pull it off.

And that is why in my opinion (triple underscore) it is more often than not a bad idea to “go there”.


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## Aquilo (Jul 30, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> I started this thread to discuss a position I put forward and deliberately made it blunt and provocative so as to....aw hell, never mind, I’m out. Have fun, I guess!



Hate to point out the obvious here, Lucky, most knew it was a sensationalist thread and why you were doing it -- that's what is offensive. If you can't understand why it's a problem, you really don't know anything beyond this forum about sex in fiction and what comes with it for authors and readers. Because it's not pretty: authors have lost their jobs, most times because low-earning authors have a bad day with sales so feel justifide in using other authors as whipping posts, or get a kick out of saying 'hey: I know it's going to cause a stir, but look at me being the big git who'll stir it anyway to make a point everyone knows already anyway.' We face it day in, day out, month in, month out.

By regurgitating this shite the way you have, it reinforces the divide. It doesn't help ease it, it doesn't help it -- it feeds it, and on and on that vicious cycle goes.

Yes I come in butting heads, but it's because I've seen authors hurt and stop writing completely, and I dont want that for anyone. I know you don't either.


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## luckyscars (Jul 30, 2019)

Aquilo said:


> Hate to point out the obvious here, Lucky, most knew it was a sensationalist thread and why you were doing it -- that's what is offensive. If you can't understand why it's a problem, you really don't know anything beyond this forum about sex in fiction and what comes with it for authors and readers. Because it's not pretty: authors have lost their jobs, most times because low-earning authors have a bad day with sales so feel justifide in using other authors as whipping posts, or get a kick out of saying 'hey: I know it's going to cause a stir, but look at me being the big git who'll stir it anyway to make a point everyone knows already anyway.' We face it day in, day out, month in, month out.
> 
> By regurgitating this shite the way you have, it reinforces the divide. It doesn't help ease it, it doesn't help it -- it feeds it, and on and on that vicious cycle goes.
> 
> Yes I come in butting heads, but it's because I've seen authors hurt and stop writing completely, and I dont want that for anyone.



Okay. Now that I clarified exactly my point in the previous post, do you disagree with any of it? Because this is starting to sound an awful lot like you got a nerve touched and are now trying to push an irrelevant issue (how nightmarishly taxing it is being a sex author or something - your post is rather vague on the specifics) and possibly a personal dislike (lots of hostile language), over the issue I actually brought up to discuss, which was essentially that engaging in a controversial subject (sex) without the appropriate skills to execute or for good reasons is a huge gamble that even good writers struggle with and therefore is risky. Yet to hear you or actually anybody address that.

Look mate, I’m not here to piss on your work. Honestly, I don’t care about your writing any more than you do about mine. The point is to discuss a subject in a way that is lively, useful, and not personal. You getting offended is plain silly. I have no idea what you’re offended about other than it seems you think sex in writing ought be some sacred cow off limits for a bit of opining on or flippancy. Well bollocks. You don’t own the space. 

Also, you should knock it off with the whole “you don’t know anything” stuff and the assumption of (malevolent) motivations. It’s rude. I’m not attacking your knowledge, or lack of it. If I say something idiotic or incorrect have at it, but you don’t know anything about me. Thanks.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 30, 2019)

TKent said:


> Definitely subjective. Obviously I'd need to reread but at the time these were all exceptional books to me, and I didn't think the sex was handled poorly.



Yup, at least some of these authors were runners up for the award.

Haruki Murakami, _Killing Commendatore _AND _Colorless Tsukuru Tazaki and His Years of Pilgrimage_ AND _1Q84
_
Erica Jong, _Fear of Dying_ AND _Sappho’s Leap_ AND _Of Blessed Memory_ 

They don't have all the years posted, and the award has been called multiple things over the years. 

Here's some telling passages from the website: 



> When I first announced what was then called the Literary Review Grand Booby Prize for Bad Sex in Fiction all those years ago, I wrote as someone who had been reviewing a novela week for many years, and complained bitterly that many of them were ruined by bad sex scenes – perfunctorily introduced and charmlessly described. It was as if every novelist felt obliged to include a sex scene, possibly under pressure from the publisher – under the illusion that some sex at least was necessary to sell anything. The purpose was not to reward tasteless or unskilled writing, but to discourage it.





> Now at least three novelists – Jonathan Coe, James Blinn and Cristina Odone – have announced they will never write another sexual passage, for fear of the Bad Sex Prize. Many more have simply dropped sex scenes from their novels without saying anything about it, as Martin Amis appears to have done in his latest novelette. It would be a terrible thing if we had succeeded in scarring everyone off sex.



These excerpts were written in 1995, so I'm sure there are yet more scared writers.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 30, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> Okay. Now that I clarified exactly my point in the previous post, do you disagree with any of it? Because this is starting to sound an awful lot like you got a nerve touched and are now trying to push an irrelevant issue (how nightmarishly taxing it is being a sex author or something - your post is rather vague on the specifics) and possibly a personal dislike (lots of hostile language), over the issue I actually brought up to discuss, which was essentially that engaging in a controversial subject (sex) without the appropriate skills to execute or for good reasons is a huge gamble that even good writers struggle with and therefore is risky. Yet to hear you or actually anybody address that.
> 
> Look mate, I’m not here to piss on your work. Honestly, I don’t care about your writing any more than you do about mine. The point is to discuss a subject in a way that is lively, useful, and not personal. You getting offended is plain silly. I have no idea what you’re offended about other than it seems you think sex in writing ought be some sacred cow off limits for a bit of opining on or flippancy. Well bollocks. You don’t own the space.
> 
> Also, you should knock it off with the whole “you don’t know anything” stuff and the assumption of (malevolent) motivations. It’s rude. I’m not attacking your knowledge, or lack of it. If I say something idiotic or incorrect have at it, but you don’t know anything about me. Thanks.



Sex is hard to write--just like any other scene, as I've pointed out multiple times. The lack of support sex scene writers get and the overwhelming amount of shaming they receive makes it very, very difficult to get any better at writing sex scenes, and makes it les likely that people will attempt to write said scenes. 

It's a huge gamble and requires a lot of skill--in part because of people like you who seem intent on telling people to not write it. I'm not saying it's not a huge gamble, but I am saying that it's a worthwhile thing to write about and shouldn't be avoided at all costs (even if it pays to be especially conscious of what one's writing). 

It's definitely a gamble. It's a huge gamble. But that doesn't make it "bad". Authors don't get better at writing through avoiding writing, so I say "Write on, mate." 

Yeah, it'll probably be awkward and suck rancid literary goat gonads, but nobody gets better sitting on their hands and avoiding the craft. Get all the sucking out now before you make it big, and people really expect stuff. 

I'm all for art--even art that I don't personally like. Somebody else out there liked it. Somebody else poured their soul into it. It's not my place to say, "Yo, you shouldn't have ever written that." 

As my exchange with TKent has gone, what works well for one person will not work well for someone else. There are people out there who simply can't stand sex in fiction. I've known a lot of them, and that's part of why sex has so much emotional weight. I don't think there's a single sex scene out there that everyone agrees is "good" or "necessary" or... anything. People cannot agree on this subject, ever.


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## EmmaSohan (Jul 30, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> With very few exceptions, in the age of porn and politics your sexy scene doesn’t do anything except open the door for you to be mocked endlessly for your weird grasp of the other sex’s biology (men like to write about women’s nipples getting hard, women like to write about bizarre musculature configurations). Sex doesn’t show romantic love in any way that walking in the park or going for a coffee cannot. Unless you can write really bloody well, stay away from sex scenes.



In the Bourne Identity, having sex changes their relationship. I think the sex scene needed to be described -- I want the story of how he started sex not trusting her and at some point started trusting her.

Yet, I usually skip over the sex scenes in the typical book when they get boring.

The after-the-fact description of the sex scene in The Fault In Our Stars worked well.


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## BornForBurning (Jul 30, 2019)

I know this is a very meme-conservative thing to say but I think porn has deeply affected young people's perception of what sex and relationships are, and I think that might be what's at the root of this problem. Maybe this opinion is unpopular here? But I agree with lucky that most sex scenes that I've read come across as very degrading, especially in more recent fiction. Really, it seems like the author is projecting their sick masturbatory fantasy on the helpless protagonists. 

I say this as a Gen Z person myself. We are steeped in porn. And it does suck. I think the older generations don't see it because they didn't have the accessibility that the internet provides, and if they did, it happened later in life. Us, we've had it for as long as we can remember. Almost all of our initial sexual experiences happened in front of a computer screen. Think about that: your first encounter with what's supposed to be the most intimate act a human can engage in, done with a cold, impersonal machine. And then that keeps happening, again and again and again, until it's 99% of the sex you'll ever have in your _life. _It's no wonder that young people have the least sex of any age demographic, our perceptions of sex are completely warped. The problem feeds into itself because the self-correcting mechanism of a real relationship becomes harder and harder to attain the more twisted by pornography your brain becomes. 

This is a whole lot to say that as a result, the writers of my generation have a very, very perverse view of sex, one that is totally self-focused and self-devouring. This makes sense because writers are more isolated anyways, and the reason we see the affects of porn on older writers is because intelligentsia are more likely to get access to high-speed internet earlier. This last bit especially is entirely my own speculation and anecdotal observation, so please don't go quoting me on it to someone else. 

I've seen quite a few people in this thread saying you should describe sex using symbolism and abstract imagery. I generally agree with this. In my opinion, sex, like the human condition itself, is a spiritual act coiled inside a mortal body. When you describe it purely physically, the 'magic' is removed and you end up with atoms pushing against other atoms, which is degrading and borderline demonic. And yes, that means I am completely opposed to erotica/pornography.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 30, 2019)

EmmaSohan said:


> Yet, I usually skip over the sex scenes in the typical book when they get boring.
> 
> The after-the-fact description of the sex scene in The Fault In Our Stars worked well.



But for others, the Fault in Our Stars was really offensive or just bad. Underage sick kids... Lot of criticism there. 

I also skip some scenes, but jeez, how does one write sex that's supposed to be interesting so badly as to make it boring? Yikes.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 30, 2019)

I'm gonna have to weigh in on Lucky's side in this debate: For the most part, sex scenes are a waste of literary real estate.

But my reason is more about the lead up to the sex.
I find that too many writers skip from introduction to sex without ever building the relationship.
This leads to readers being nonplussed by the scene.

To me, building the relationship, making the reader fall in love along with them...that's the real paydirt!
*However...that is also some of the most difficult writing in the world...at least if you do it right.*
Most writer's romance scenes sound like they were written by George Lucas, so when they skip to sex it comes off as cheap.


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## BornForBurning (Jul 30, 2019)

> Most writer's romance scenes sound like they were written by George Lucas, so when they skip to sex it comes off as cheap.


Anakin and Padme's romance is genius comedy and I say that without a hint of irony. Skip to 31:19.


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## seigfried007 (Jul 30, 2019)

BornForBurning said:


> I know this is a very meme-conservative thing to say but I think porn has deeply affected young people's perception of what sex and relationships are, and I think that might be what's at the root of this problem. Maybe this opinion is unpopular here? But I agree with lucky that most sex scenes that I've read come across as very degrading, especially in more recent fiction. Really, it seems like the author is projecting their sick masturbatory fantasy on the helpless protagonists.
> 
> I say this as a Gen Z person myself. We are steeped in porn. And it does suck. I think the older generations don't see it because they didn't have the accessibility that the internet provides, and if they did, it happened later in life. Us, we've had it for as long as we can remember. Almost all of our initial sexual experiences happened in front of a computer screen. Think about that: your first encounter with what's supposed to be the most intimate act a human can engage in, done with a cold, impersonal machine. And then that keeps happening, again and again and again, until it's 99% of the sex you'll ever have in your _life. _It's no wonder that young people have the least sex of any age demographic, our perceptions of sex are completely warped. The problem feeds into itself because the self-correcting mechanism of a real relationship becomes harder and harder to attain the more twisted by pornography your brain becomes.
> 
> ...



Very happy you brought this viewpoint in! 

Aquilo doesn't write erotica--that's actually a different genre now, as she's explained to me. Erotica is basically short pornographic sequences in word format, with the emphasis being on titillation. She writes erotic romance, which is a genre of romance that happens to have sex scenes (at least, most of the time, from the sounds of it). In every kind of romance, the build up and relationship is the most important part. The reader is supposed to be deeply invested in the characters, so, even if the scene might be graphic (depending on subgenre and necessity) the intent isn't titillation for titillation's sake. In a way, such stories might even be considered a therapeutic thing for your generation (or any other group of people who may have difficulty getting over the base, cold, physical "collision of molecules" sex), if you think about it--a way for us older people to teach sex & romance to younger people (this is a really odd way to look at it, but that doesn't mean it couldn't work in its own way). 

Sex shouldn't be left to purely symbolism or abstract imagery anymore than any other scene. Sometimes, symbolism just clouds the message. 

Your description of how cold and strange sex has become reminds me of a few good Tool songs, oddly enough. Not sure if you're a Tool fan, but Stinkfist, while on the surface is about a sex act, is actually not about sex but about how people may need bigger, grander, ever-more escalating stimuli to achieve the same effect. The sex act itself eventually becomes physically impossible but is implied anyway. It can't happen--just like the desired permanent sense of fulfillment once someone has gotten into the habit/trap of such escalations. This same escalation is also part of the trend toward demeaning, escalating sex scenes--same thing is happening in pornography, actually. People need more and more shock value to get the same feeling. 

Part of the reason they have less sex may also be because real life relationships require a lot of work. They're messy and costly in an emotional and physical sense. It's much easier to fulfill yourself--even if it's utterly hollow emotionally in the long run. There's less work, less investment, less love, less respect. At the same time, pornography has given people unfair, unrealistic expectations for relationships and sex generally. There's no real world sense of how demeaning or disrespectful some of these acts are, how much pain might be inflicted, how much these people are paid to do these things. It's a self-perpetuating cycle, as you've mentioned, and this is exceptionally sad. Therefore, it's all the more something to celebrate worthwhile romances (and even well-written sex).


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## luckyscars (Jul 31, 2019)

A new movie I watched recently called “Aftermath” (a piece of Keira Knightley melodramatic goo) summed up this problem for me quite well. The story was set in 1946 about a British woman married to a British officer who begins an illicit affair with a German man in the aftermath of World War Two.

Movie was okay until suddenly Keira and this guy started banging on the kitchen table. Minimal lead up, just one minute they were arguing and she was being an ass to this guy and then SUDDENLY ALL HER CLOTHES FELL OFF! The sex scene that followed was pretty graphic and prolonged. Nothing pornish or shocking...just quite...prolonged. And really tedious. There were a few more such scenes.

This is what I’m talking about. The use of sex in that movie was poorly done. The flagrant use of Keira’s nipples felt like a prop. The depiction of sex felt not like an important plot point or a display of love or any of that shit but as a way for the movie to claim loudly and desperately TAKE ME SERIOUSLY! I’M FOR GROWNUPS! LOOK AT ALL THIS SEXXXX!

And...a lot of books now have sex scenes in of that nature and for that reason (in my opinion!). It’s a bullshit measure used in a lot of “love stories”, ignoring the fact historically most love stories did not need it. There are no sex scenes in Romeo and Juliet, Casablanca, etc. That does NOT mean sexual content is off limits or innately bad, only that it is largely abused, poorly done, often as not a go-to for anybody who wants their material to seem “adult” or be taken seriously. It’s almost like a lot of writers feel their character’s relationship will not be taken seriously unless they have sex AND that sex is described in some level of detail.

Which is some garbage.


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## ironpony (Jul 31, 2019)

Sometimes a sex scene can be done in quite a beautiful romantic way that makes you feel more for the character though.  Unless it's just me?


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## JustRob (Jul 31, 2019)

JustRob said:


> Now why did I think of the reviews for _Fifty Shades of Grey_ just then?



Actually, having read reviews I've never read the stories, so can't comment any further on that. The fact that the eighty year old lady next door read all three books and couldn't see the point in them suggests that the reviews were right, but I do wonder why she read all three then.

On the subject of a sex scene being essential to the plot and memorable, I actually had to play them down and _not_ make most of them memorable in my story because sex was actually the means that a couple used to travel from one place to another in space and time. That's what you get for being both a pantser and logical thinker though. The logic was as follows.

-- Fact -- In various ancient texts cherubim were described as being the entities that transported Yahweh across the heavens.

-- Fact -- In certain ancient texts Adam was described as having been destined to become a cherub, but instead was divided into two parts, a man and woman, which deprived him of his special powers. 

-- Fiction -- In my story something known as the "Hermes Culture" enabled a man and woman to recombine both physically and mentally, literally forming the beast with two backs. "The Beast", implicitly a cherub, then transported them to a virtual replica of any place and time in their combined memories. 

Hence sex became an essential component of the story, but no more than a car journey might. In our stories no doubt people jump into their cars to go elsewhere, but we have no need to describe every gear change, depression of the accelerator, twist of the steering wheel and application of the brakes involved in reaching the desired destination. (Did I just write a piece of erotica there, metaphorically speaking? It made the point though, didn't it?)

Fortunately I believe that sex ought to be fun, so the scenes are funny when the details of this fictional scientific phenomenon get jumbled up with the couple's sexual antics. By making sex a means of transport I emphasised the point that it's just a regular component of some people's lives, whatever form it takes, and can be treated as such. (Imagine Jean Luc Picard saying "Engage" for example. What innuendo!) Personally I get turned off by writers who harp on too much about _any_ subject, such as guns or high performance cars, so why single out sex? I once read a published all action story that could only be described as pure gun porn.

P.S.
I think it is misleading to mix up the treatment of sex in literature and in visual media such as films. Even though they can tell the same stories they do it in very different ways.


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## EmmaSohan (Jul 31, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> This is what I’m talking about. The use of sex in that movie was poorly done.



I thought that's what you meant by your thread title (which generated 6 pages of discussion in one day!). I know the basic mechanics and feelings of intercourse. Those aren't interesting by themselves to _me_. I'm pretty sure some people do find them interesting, so I will not begrudge authors who write them, though I will skip over the boring parts of a book.

As Aquilo noted, sex is an important part of life, and it deserves to be written about for that reason. I tried to say that something during sex could be important to the story. Anyway, if there's conflict, or cooperation, or suspense, character, humor, something profound, a good metaphor, etc. that's reason to leave it in the story.


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## TKent (Jul 31, 2019)

Ha! Never heard of that prize until now. Is there a good sex prize? I am pretty careful with reviews in general. Sometimes I agree with them and sometimes not, whether they are critiquing sex or prose or plot or anything else for that matter. 



seigfried007 said:


> Yup, at least some of these authors were runners up for the award.
> 
> Haruki Murakami, _Killing Commendatore _AND _Colorless Tsukuru Tazaki and His Years of Pilgrimage_ AND _1Q84
> _
> ...


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## luckyscars (Jul 31, 2019)

EmmaSohan said:


> I thought that's what you meant by your thread title (which generated 6 pages of discussion in one day!). I know the basic mechanics and feelings of intercourse. Those aren't interesting by itself to _me_. I'm pretty sure some people do find them interesting, so I will not begrudge authors who write them, though I will skip over the boring parts of a book.
> 
> As Aquilo noted, sex is an important part of life, and it deserves to be written about for that reason. I tried to say that something during sex could be important to the story. Anyway, if there's conflict, or cooperation, or suspense, character, humor, something profound, a good metaphor, etc. that's reason to leave it in the story.



That’s fine. Writing about sex, of course, can be and often is done without use of a sex scene so it’s incorrect to conflate the two. 

Many (and, in my opinion, most) sex scenes have nothing to do with sex on any level that matters. They are about nothing except perhaps the peccadillos of the author. 

So often when I read a “sex” scene  (especially when written by a young male author) I can all but smell the sweat of the wrist action as the details of clenching vaginas and erect nipples and  god knows what else are recounted in striking detail. 

 It’s not so much that it’s weird and gross so much as it’s invariably boring.


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## Cephus (Jul 31, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> A new movie I watched recently called “Aftermath” (a piece of Keira Knightley melodramatic goo) summed up this problem for me quite well. The story was set in 1946 about a British woman married to a British officer who begins an illicit affair with a German man in the aftermath of World War Two.
> 
> Movie was okay until suddenly Keira and this guy started banging on the kitchen table. Minimal lead up, just one minute they were arguing and she was being an ass to this guy and then SUDDENLY ALL HER CLOTHES FELL OFF! The sex scene that followed was pretty graphic and prolonged. Nothing pornish or shocking...just quite...prolonged. And really tedious. There were a few more such scenes.
> 
> ...



All of which I agree with. I always found it funny that so much that is classed as "adult" really only appeals to the immature. That's not to say that you can't do meaningful sex scenes or talk meaningfully about drugs or use profanity meaningfully, but the overwhelming majority of it out there is made to appeal to people who are fundamentally immature. According to statistics, the primary consumers of pornography are boys between 12 and 17 years of age. Mature adults usually don't bother. They don't have to. I'm not trying to argue that porn or erotica or sex scenes or anything else is bad, necessarily, but let's be honest about who the audience is. It's made to appeal to the immature. Yes, that may be a paying market, but that doesn't change the facts.

And lots of people will hate that I pointed that out.


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## Amnesiac (Jul 31, 2019)

As someone who is, (much to my own chagrin and surprise), writing more and more romance, and enjoying it quite a bit, there is a good bit of sex in my stories. Nearly always, the woman is the one pushing the action, and I do a lot to build rapport and tension between the characters. A lot of people read romance because they are wanting that sexual/physical/happily-ever-after "payoff. In such stories, the sex scenes are an integral part. Now, all that being said, as a writer, I can make even the smallest kiss just sizzle right off the page, and the tension, the attraction, the build-up to that first kiss can really be drawn out until it becomes nearly intoxicating. Ditto, the sex scenes. It doesn't have to be the cheesy ol' in and out, throbbing abs and pulsating nipples and blah blah blah.

I try to follow the same rules as non-romantic fiction: Strong character development; people with flaws, phobias, shyness, lacking confidence, going through divorces, etc., and my characters have dreams, fights, and problems. I try to keep raising the stakes throughout the story. I also try to keep my peripheral/supporting characters interesting, as well.

After writing so much of the macabre; ghost stories, surreal stories, etc., writing a sweet romance feels like a vacation, a dessert, or just plain fun. I started out trying my hand at it as a way of boosting my writing chops, and found out that I really like it. Go figure... LOL


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## luckyscars (Jul 31, 2019)

Amnesiac said:


> As someone who is, (much to my own chagrin and surprise), writing more and more romance, and enjoying it quite a bit, there is a good bit of sex in my stories. Nearly always, the woman is the one pushing the action, and I do a lot to build rapport and tension between the characters. A lot of people read romance because they are wanting that sexual/physical/happily-ever-after "payoff. In such stories, the sex scenes are an integral part. Now, all that being said, as a writer, I can make even the smallest kiss just sizzle right off the page, and the tension, the attraction, the build-up to that first kiss can really be drawn out until it becomes nearly intoxicating. Ditto, the sex scenes. It doesn't have to be the cheesy ol' in and out, throbbing abs and pulsating nipples and blah blah blah.
> 
> I try to follow the same rules as non-romantic fiction: Strong character development; people with flaws, phobias, shyness, lacking confidence, going through divorces, etc., and my characters have dreams, fights, and problems. I try to keep raising the stakes throughout the story. I also try to keep my peripheral/supporting characters interesting, as well.
> 
> After writing so much of the macabre; ghost stories, surreal stories, etc., writing a sweet romance feels like a vacation, a dessert, or just plain fun. I started out trying my hand at it as a way of boosting my writing chops, and found out that I really like it. Go figure... LOL



It sounds like your stories meet the criteria of acceptability as far as sex scenes - the plot requires it and you are able to pull it off. So the thrust (ha!) of my point would not apply. 

One thing though: I find often sexually themed writing is something that is really hard for the writer to assess when it’s their own work. This is clear from the examples I gave earlier of Marukami etc - presumably these guys thought their horrible sex scenes they wrote were good. Something about sex scenes seems to make a lot of people forget themselves and lose themselves in their inner Marquis De Sade or whatever.


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## Amnesiac (Jul 31, 2019)

Yeah... Those scenes are definitely the ones to go back over, after a period of time, and really read very carefully. Like the old saying, "Kill your darlings." Perhaps the sex scenes are the "ultimate darlings."

I have a couple of very reliable female friends that I'll have read through my initial and revised drafts, and they are good at offering pointers (heh..) or for telling me to add this scene, delete that one, etc.


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## Aquilo (Jul 31, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> Many (and, in my opinion, most) sex scenes have nothing to do with sex on any level that matters. They are about nothing except perhaps the peccadillos of the author.
> 
> So often when I read a “sex” scene (especially when written by a young male author) I can all but smell the sweat of the wrist action as the details of clenching vaginas and erect nipples and god knows what else are recounted in striking detail.



Bullshit, Lucky. So authors who write a sex scene are now wankers too? Sorry... most of them are wankers? You're showing such a lack of respect for your fellow authors this is bordering on laughable and downright crude now. If this what Writing Forums is about and promotes, I'm out.


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## velo (Jul 31, 2019)

*::: Moderator Note :::

I am locking this thread for 24 hrs.  If a higher level of discourse does not follow it being reopened tomorrow, I will lock it permanently. 


[EDIT]

After conferring with admins we have decided to close this thread permanently.  *


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