# Is it time for a new genre?



## Taylor (Jan 8, 2021)

This thread is inspired by some of luckyscars recent threads, _“Dead” Genres_ and _The Well Written Story v The Good Story_.  I was very entertained by your lively discussions.  But it got me wondering if we are ready for a new genre.  And if yes, what would it look like?  Would it be inspired by other movements or art forms?  

Rap is a relatively new music genre.  While not as melodic, it focuses more on basic, visceral lyrics. Common themes are social awareness, and non-violence. I didn’t like it at first, but I have come to appreciate it for it’s redeeming qualities.  What would the novelist's version of it look like?

Reality TV has come on with a fervor. I remember seeing Jim Carrey in_ The Truman Show _and thinking that couldn’t really happen in real life.  And voila!  The birth of Kardashians and Real Housewives.  What would reality TV look like in a novel?

I thought about a combination of the two, and this is what I came up with: 

Rap is about content...getting a message across.  So this new genre wouldn’t focus on writing style or a sophisticated taste with respect to the use of the language. And as with reality TV, it wouldn’t follow an expected formula.  This new genre would be raw and fluid. Each new paragraph would be read only for it’s individual merit.  Dialogue would be clever, funny and interesting, not just used as a means to carry out a predetermined plotline.  It would be a page-turner because the reader wanted more, not just because the reader wanted to find out ‘whodunit’.  _YouTube_ and _TikTok_, are the competitors, so the reader would need instant gratification often with pleasing morsels that could be digested in short durations.  That’s my vision so far. 

Do you think we are ready for a new genre?

What would it look like to you?


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## BrandonTheWriter (Jan 8, 2021)

All I know is it will be the younger generation that comes up with it, whatever it is. I honestly don't understand most of the stuff that is popular these days. I only recently discovered FanFiction, and some of it is actually great. Especially if you have always wanted to see something continue and someone does it well.

I like your ideas. I think whatever the new genre is, it will break the foundation of what writing is. It won't be clean and neat and well presented, it will something else.


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## Deleted member 64995 (Jan 9, 2021)

And in my Top 10, of "Writer's Goals"


Try every genre, even if I don't like it, or it's not for me. I want to try, love stories, theater scripts, movie scripts, creepy pasta, horror, spy ... etc.


In my opinion, that's something everyone should do. Even just for personal pleasure; without letting anyone read anything.


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## bdcharles (Jan 9, 2021)

What I want is immersive augmented-reality fiction. Eschewing conventional linear structure, this genre uses the actual world as its page. You receive a first line - maybe as a DM on your social media - and it points to a new location. You must go there to get the next line, or the next scene. You may have use your phone, or contact other readers, to decipher the whole thing. You may have to converse with a complete stranger in order to get to the next bit. The story may change midway through with no warning and no explanation; readers themselves may even be able to enact changes as the race to the last page intensifies.


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## Taylor (Jan 9, 2021)

BrandonTheWriter said:


> All I know is it will be the younger generation that comes up with it, whatever it is. I honestly don't understand most of the stuff that is popular these days. I only recently discovered FanFiction, and some of it is actually great. Especially if you have always wanted to see something continue and someone does it well.



First Time I have heard of fan fiction. Interesting. Not sure how I feel about it. For those of you who don't know, it's fiction written by fans of existing books/TV shows/movies, using existing characters.  It is rarely published, because most of it infringes copyright.    I wonder how the copyright holders feel about it.  On the one hand it's stealing their well-established characters, but then on the other hand I could see how they may find it useful if there is that much interest and activity.  It's almost like free advertising, like for example for the Star Trek series, which I take it was the first one used for the genre.  I could also see a huge market for characters from classics coming back to life.  Who doesn't want to read about Holden Caulfield again.  Although I just noticed that Salinger is still alive at 91.  I wonder if it makes a big difference if the author is living or dead.




BrandonTheWriter said:


> I like your ideas. I think whatever the new genre is, it will break the foundation of what writing is. It won't be clean and neat and well presented, it will something else.



I agree that it will be something else very different.  And it will be from someone who isn't even trying to create a genre.  It'll just come out of nowhere.  I remember when the kids all started to play video games.  Reading went way down.  If you had told me that a series of books would come out about a bunch of kids and wizardry, I would have said...good luck!  But 500 million copies later, Harry Potter is still selling.  Although I'm not entirely certain that it was a new genre, it has created a whole new industry that merchandises fiction. Last time I was in a Barnes & Noble in the US, It had its own section.  And I would say only 30% of the shelving was books.  There were toys, games, costumes...you name it.

But then maybe that would be something to try, a story that could be merchandised for adults.  I was just trying to picture that and thought of E.L. James Grey series...OOPS!!


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## MistWolf (Jan 9, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Rap is a relatively new music genre.  While not as melodic, it focuses more on basic, visceral lyrics. Common themes are social awareness, and non-violence.



Common themes are also rape, degradation, murder and cop killing




> Reality TV has come on with a fervor. I remember seeing Jim Carrey in





> _ The Truman Show _and thinking that couldn’t really happen in real life.  And voila!  The birth of Kardashians and Real Housewives.  What would reality TV look like in a novel?



Facebook and 4Chan (among other social media) are already there




> I thought about a combination of the two, and this is what I came up with:





> Rap is about content...getting a message across.  So this new genre wouldn’t focus on writing style or a sophisticated taste with respect to the use of the language. And as with reality TV, it wouldn’t follow an expected formula.  This new genre would be raw and fluid. Each new paragraph would be read only for it’s individual merit.  Dialogue would be clever, funny and interesting, not just used as a means to carry out a predetermined plotline.  It would be a page-turner because the reader wanted more, not just because the reader wanted to find out ‘whodunit’.  _YouTube_ and _TikTok_, are the competitors, so the reader would need instant gratification often with pleasing morsels that could be digested in short durations.  That’s my vision so far.
> 
> Do you think we are ready for a new genre?
> 
> What would it look like to you?


Remember IRC Chatrooms?


bdcharles said:


> What I want is immersive augmented-reality fiction. Eschewing conventional linear structure, this genre uses the actual world as its page. You receive a first line - maybe as a DM on your social media - and it points to a new location. You must go there to get the next line, or the next scene. You may have use your phone, or contact other readers, to decipher the whole thing. You may have to converse with a complete stranger in order to get to the next bit. The story may change midway through with no warning and no explanation; readers themselves may even be able to enact changes as the race to the last page intensifies.


Hook up with online gamers on Discord


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## Taylor (Jan 9, 2021)

LadySilence said:


> And in my Top 10, of "Writer's Goals"
> 
> 
> Try every genre, even if I don't like it, or it's not for me. I want to try, love stories, theater scripts, movie scripts, creepy pasta, horror, spy ... etc.
> ...



Wow, that's really ambitious!  I just learned what creepypasta is.  Wikipedia says:

_Creepypastas are horror-related legends that have been copied and pasted around the Internet. These Internet entries are often brief, user-generated, paranormal stories intended to scare readers. They include gruesome tales of murder, suicide, and otherworldly occurrences.
_
Apparently it peaked in 2010.  It seems that anything horror-related will always survive with younger readers.  I guess it's all part of discovering life.  I wonder if there are other stories that are distributed this way that aren't horror. 

It makes me think of using social media in conjuction with the written word.  A sort of timed story that comes with photos and videos.    It seems that social media has taken a huge chunk of our reading time, so we should be finding ways to use it more.  Do you know if there are authors doing something with social media that goes beyond just marketing their books?


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## escorial (Jan 9, 2021)

happy books.....harry potter goes to benidorm....


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## Taylor (Jan 9, 2021)

bdcharles said:


> What I want is immersive augmented-reality fiction. Eschewing conventional linear structure, this genre uses the actual world as its page. You receive a first line - maybe as a DM on your social media - and it points to a new location. You must go there to get the next line, or the next scene. You may have use your phone, or contact other readers, to decipher the whole thing. You may have to converse with a complete stranger in order to get to the next bit. The story may change midway through with no warning and no explanation; readers themselves may even be able to enact changes as the race to the last page intensifies.



I love this idea!  Is anyone doing it already?  I think the function of interacting is so inherent in our everyday lives now.  I mean...just look at how many hours we all spend on this forum interacting.  I'm finding it a life-line when I am at home just writing by myself.  It sounds like your concept would need a platform, like a TikTok type thing.  I guess someone would have to create the app, and then find a way to make it user generated.  So anyone could set up a story as long as they have an account and follow the rules.   I thought I saw something like this described in another post, but I can't remember where.  Maybe that person will chime in.


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## Taylor (Jan 9, 2021)

MistWolf said:


> Common themes are also rape, degradation, murder and cop killing



True, but I guess most of the ones about things like that don't make it into my relm.  I think it originated with social causes no? 




MistWolf said:


> Facebook and 4Chan (among other social media) are already there



Are people sharing novels on facebook?  I thought about doing that. Just posting a section each week.  And then allowing people to comment and have discussions online. You could alter the plot based on people's opinions. I know soap operas do that now, with respect to the fan-driven plotlines.  But you could only do it once.   Then what would you do with it afterwards.  I guess you could self-publish then. Or maybe it never ends like a soap opera. Hmmm...I like that idea.  Could be a bit demanding in time.  Would your fans complain if you took a week off?

I had never heard of 4Chan before, but at first glance, I didn't see fiction or stories on there.  Seems more like a discussion site.  Or did I just not go to the right section?



MistWolf said:


> Remember IRC Chatrooms?



Yes, they are apparently on the decline now.  But still a discussion forum, not fiction or story related.



MistWolf said:


> Hook up with online gamers on Discord



That's a good point!  I never thought of it that way, but story-driven video games could be considered a new genre.  There is a huge studio(?) in our area that employs people to design these games.  But are the authors and the illustrators the same person, or does it take a team of people to produce the game?


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## Taylor (Jan 9, 2021)

escorial said:


> happy books.....harry potter goes to benidorm....



Sounds like someone is craving a Mediterranean holiday!  

But that's a good point.  I could see the demand from readers who crave the travel experience.  I wonder if Covid will create a new escapism genre, based solely on characters going for exotic vacations.  Maybe that already exists.   It would be pretty easy to write a series.  Each time the characters get into trouble by not knowing the local customs or something like that.  Romance wouldn't be the best fit, because the timeframe is not really long enough, but I guess for some it would work...lol!


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## escorial (Jan 9, 2021)

what about happy from start to finish....no escapism


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## Taylor (Jan 9, 2021)

escorial said:


> what about happy from start to finish....no escapism



Yeah for sure! I was thinking that the escapism, was the reader escaping from being cooped up at home.  Even if they did get into difficulties because they didn't know the customs...that could be happy and funny.  I know when I travel with my family (use to), we always have a lot of fun and laugh a lot at the odd things and characters that we experience.  Never in front of them of course!  I can remember a certain RV rental guy (in a very clean country), who we still joke about to this day.  After getting explicit instructions on how to clean out the holding tank before returning it, we still didn't get it right.  He pointed at us tersely and said, "someone forgot to clean,"  with a heavy accent of course.   We still imitate him at appropriate times and it still always gets a laugh.


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## MistWolf (Jan 9, 2021)

Taylor said:


> True, but I guess most of the ones about things like that don't make it into my relm.  I think it originated with social causes no?


And justification of heinous criminal activities




> Are people sharing novels on facebook?  I thought about doing that. Just posting a section each week.  And then allowing people to comment and have discussions online. You could alter the plot based on people's opinions. I know soap operas do that now, with respect to the fan-driven plotlines.  But you could only do it once.   Then what would you do with it afterwards.  I guess you could self-publish then. Or maybe it never ends like a soap opera. Hmmm...I like that idea.  Could be a bit demanding in time.  Would your fans complain if you took a week off?


Larry Correia published a book of short stories that the first draft was written collectively on one of his social media sites. it his _Tom Stranger, Inter-Dimensional Insurance Agent_. It's off the wall, unapologetic, satirical and has a lot of inside humor. Whether the stories are your cup of tea or not, it was drafted collectively online.



> I had never heard of 4Chan before, but at first glance, I didn't see fiction or stories on there.  Seems more like a discussion site.  Or did I just not go to the right section?


4Chan has a lot going on. It's kinda like social media anarchy. It explores many subjects with deep dark rabbit holes.



> Yes, they are apparently on the decline now.  But still a discussion forum, not fiction or story related.


Many IRC channels were about collective story telling and roleplaying. Vampire chat channels were filled with Goth Vamps, Capri-Suns (characters that begged vamps to drink from them) and stank of teenage angst.

I got in trouble once because I stumbled across one channel and entered as a clueless, normal human. (Remember, all interaction is text in a Chatroom.) I acted if I didn't know the room was about V&V (Vampires & Victims). I started flirting with one girl and had my character; fat, dumb and happy; sit in her lap. We went back & forth with suggestive dialogue for a bit and when she leaned in to "nuzzle" my neck, I buried my face in her bosom and bit her.

Of course, she jumped up and started cussing me out.

I said "Oh, woe is me! Once again, I loved and lost. Parting is such sweet sorrow. As painful as it is, I shall always cherish this moment- _Fangs for the mammaries..._"



> That's a good point!  I never thought of it that way, but story-driven video games could be considered a new genre.  There is a huge studio(?) in our area that employs people to design these games.  But are the authors and the illustrators the same person, or does it take a team of people to produce the game?


Most successful games are created by teams. However, a lot of dialogue takes place between players (and watchers) on Discord.

In any case, Discord gets your foot in the door


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## escorial (Jan 9, 2021)

im sure there are books that fall into happy from start to finish but i have never read one...maybe as a kid


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## Taylor (Jan 9, 2021)

escorial said:


> im sure there are books that fall into happy from start to finish but i have never read one...maybe as a kid



I'm sure you are right, but it seems to me we had a similar thread that discussed whether there were pleasant reads with no conflict and forum posters all seemed to agree it didn't exist.  But you could be onto something.  Maybe as writers we have it so engrained in us that we need a character arch and tension and a resolution, etc.  I could see a new genre of stories that are just happy -- thank you very much!

What type of stories would you tell?  How would you label the genre?


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## escorial (Jan 9, 2021)

some massive musician once said miserable songs will always out do.. silly love songs....possibly humans are not wired to feel happy all the time...


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## Taylor (Jan 9, 2021)

MistWolf said:


> And justification of heinous criminal activities



True, I guess it may have orignated in bad neighbourhoods where people knew no differently.  



MistWolf said:


> Larry Correia published a book of short stories that the first draft was written collectively on one of his social media sites. it his _Tom Stranger, Inter-Dimensional Insurance Agent_. It's off the wall, unapologetic, satirical and has a lot of inside humor. Whether it's your cup of tea or not, it happened.



Great, I'll check it out!



MistWolf said:


> Many IRC channels were about collective story telling and roleplaying. Vampire chat channels filled with Goth Vamps, Capri-Suns (characters that begged vamps to drink from them) and stank of teenage angst.
> 
> I got in trouble once because I stumbled across one channel and entered as a clueless, normal human. (Remember, all interaction is text in a Chatroom.)I acted if I didn't know the room was about V&V (Vampires & Victims). I started flirting with one girl and had my character; fat, dumb and happy; sit in her lap. We went back & forth with suggestive dialogue for a bit and when she leaned in to "nuzzle" my neck, I buried my face in her bosom and bit her.
> 
> Of course, she jumped up and started cussing me out.



That is so funny.  Do you remember Second Life?  I got on there for awhile before it crashed my computer.  I was doing really well buying real estate and stuff, and then one day I let someone lead me to let's just say to a strange place involving hot tubs and other recreational stuff if you catch my drift.  It's like oops!  How fast can I get out of here!!  



MistWolf said:


> Most successful games are created by teams. However, a lot of dialogue takes place between players (and watchers) on Discord.
> 
> In any case, Discord gets your foot in the door



Not sure I want to become a gamer, but I will check it out...


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## MistWolf (Jan 9, 2021)

Taylor said:


> I'm sure you are right, but it seems to me we had a similar thread that discussed whether there were pleasant reads with no conflict and forum posters all seemed to agree it didn't exist.  But you could be onto something.  Maybe as writers we have it so engrained in us that we need a character arch and tension and a resolution, etc.  I could see a new genre of stories that are just happy -- thank you very much!
> 
> What type of stories would you tell?  How would you label the genre?


No conflict? No way!

Happy from start to finish? Maybe

Light-hearted? Yes. How would I label it? Seussian
_I would read it anywhere, Sam-I-Am_


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## Taylor (Jan 9, 2021)

escorial said:


> some massive musician once said miserable songs will always out do.. silly love songs....possibly humans are not wired to feel happy all the time...



I believe this to be true!  I think we strive for happiness all the time, but once we get there we find something else not to be happy about.  I often wonder why, when things are going very well for me, I often go throught a period of having nightmares.  Is that my brain trying to balance things out?


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## escorial (Jan 9, 2021)

a happy book from start to finish might be the most difficult genre there is


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## Taylor (Jan 9, 2021)

MistWolf said:


> No conflict? No way!
> 
> Happy from start to finish? Maybe
> 
> ...



Yeah that was_ Sam-I-AM_...lol!  The eternal optimist!  His friend looked pretty angry though... _"Not in a car Sam, let me be!"   
_
_Cat in a Hat._ _ "So all we could do was Sit! Sit! Sit! Sit! Sit! And we did not like it.  One little bit."

_Light-hearted?  That's debatable.


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## Taylor (Jan 9, 2021)

escorial said:


> a happy book from start to finish might be the most difficult genre there is



Agree!   More likely found in children's books.  Although I'm sure it could be done for adults.   But if your theory is correct, then they would be unhappy when it was finished.


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## MistWolf (Jan 9, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Yeah that was_ Sam-I-AM_...lol!  The eternal optimist!  His friend looked pretty angry though... _"Not in a car Sam, let me be!"
> _
> _Cat in a Hat._ _ "So all we could do was Sit! Sit! Sit! Sit! Sit! And we did not like it.  One little bit."
> 
> _Light-hearted?  That's debatable.



More light-hearted than "See Spot. See Dick. See Spot chase Dick. Run, Spot, run! See Spot bite Dick!"


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## Taylor (Jan 9, 2021)

MistWolf said:


> More light-hearted than "See Spot. See Dick. See Spot chase Dick. Run, Spot, run! See Spot bite Dick!"



Perhaps...lol!!


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## indianroads (Jan 9, 2021)

Philosophical fiction... could be military, romance, SciFi, etc.


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## Deleted member 64995 (Jan 10, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Wow, that's really ambitious! I just learned what creepypasta is. Wikipedia says:
> 
> _Creepypastas are horror-related legends that have been copied and pasted around the Internet. These Internet entries are often brief, user-generated, paranormal stories intended to scare readers. They include gruesome tales of murder, suicide, and otherworldly occurrences.
> _
> ...



I read some Creepypasta, and wow, I was really convinced they were true. The most beautiful one I have read is called "the Russian sleep experiment" seems like a 100% true story


i try to write something next month. It is a great challenge!


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## bdcharles (Jan 10, 2021)

MistWolf said:


> Hook up with online gamers on Discord



I'm on a couple of servers on discord but haven't seen anything like this. Can you recommend any that fit the bill?



Taylor said:


> I love this idea!  Is anyone doing it already?  I think the function of interacting is so inherent in our everyday lives now.  I mean...just look at how many hours we all spend on this forum interacting.  I'm finding it a life-line when I am at home just writing by myself.  It sounds like your concept would need a platform, like a TikTok type thing.  I guess someone would have to create the app, and then find a way to make it user generated.  So anyone could set up a story as long as they have an account and follow the rules.   I thought I saw something like this described in another post, but I can't remember where.  Maybe that person will chime in.



I'm working on it ... always working on it ...


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## escorial (Jan 10, 2021)

very short story in happy from start to finish genre....

waking up Taylor pushed the fluffy  clouds to one side and smiled as the rainbows made the shape of an arch to walk through to get to the fountain of youth to clean the glitter and crystal flakes that always fall while sleeping and dreaming of just another day to add to a wonderful life full of joy and happiness. Later that day after eating marshmellow and pixie dust cereal from the golden bowl of life the day spread itself out into a burst of starlight and shooting stars to accompany a walk through paradise. Afrer another smashing day of laughter and pure thoughts it was time for sleeps time just before the nice person brought those favourite sweets medications and another perfect sleepy time.


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## Taylor (Jan 10, 2021)

indianroads said:


> Philosophical fiction... could be military, romance, SciFi, etc.



That sounds really intriguing, and ideas come to mind.  Can you elaborate about what _you_ had in mind?


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## indianroads (Jan 10, 2021)

Taylor said:


> That sounds really intriguing, and ideas come to mind.  Can you elaborate about what _you_ had in mind?


war stories that delve into the causes of violence (political ambition) and the suffering and casualties (perspective of the citizens) and the pointlessness of it all.
SciFi akin to Childhoods End, or delves into subjects of the human condition (intolerance, species prejudice).

Subjects like that.


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## Taylor (Jan 10, 2021)

indianroads said:


> war stories that delve into the causes of violence (political ambition) and the suffering and casualties (perspective of the citizens) and the pointlessness of it all.
> SciFi akin to Childhoods End, or delves into subjects of the human condition (intolerance, species prejudice).
> 
> Subjects like that.



Yes, I can see that being very popular and timely.  Authors have to find ways to stay relevant.  I think some people are craving an explanation to the madness that is happening in politics right now.  We seem to have slipped into this black and white world, where free speech is exhalted but much of it is noise drowning out the truth.  I could see the younger generation questioning how governments really work so they can find a better way.  They will be looking for a sincere perspective to draw their opinions, and set their path.

The pendulum may swing away from mindless, tribalist, drivel to more introspective literature.  Nietzschesque in nature.


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## MistWolf (Jan 10, 2021)

bdcharles said:


> I'm on a couple of servers on discord but haven't seen anything like this. Can you recommend any that fit the bill?



Unfortunately, no. It's something my son does. He tells me about it, but I don't understand half of what he's talking about.


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## indianroads (Jan 10, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Yes, I can see that being very popular and timely.  Authors have to find ways to stay relevant.  I think some people are craving an explanation to the madness that is happening in politics right now.  We seem to have slipped into this black and white world, where free speech is exhalted but much of it is noise drowning out the truth.  I could see the younger generation questioning how governments really work so they can find a better way.  They will be looking for a sincere perspective to draw their opinions, and set their path.
> 
> The pendulum may swing away from mindless, tribalist, drivel to more introspective literature.  Nietzschesque in nature.



Actually - that's the sort of SciFi I write, and have used a nonhuman character to give perspective on humanity. The trick though, and it can be tough to do on certain subjects, is to write objectively. Tell the story from the character's perspective.

My first book, Dark Side of Joy, was about a boy taken from his criminal parents. He went through juvie (essentially kid jail), then abusive foster care, then lived on the street surviving by selling heroin. I wrote that during the time when children of illegal immigrants were being taken from their parents, as a means of saying - putting kids in jail because of things their parents have done has been going on for a long time, and yet no one objected to it.

My second book, The Last Dragon, was about real estate developers converting ethnic neighborhoods into cookie cutter business districts.

My Extinction series is about the future spiritual evolution of humanity. Each of the books took a different subject, tyranny, the inherit violence of politics, intolerance, relationships and sexism, and finally spirituality and religion.

As a reader, I search for books that have some meaning to them. Car chases, army maneuvers, shoot-em-up stories, monsters chasing people around - for me, all that is meaningless unless there point to the story other than mindless entertainment.

I'm probably an outlier though - so keep that in mind.


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## indianroads (Jan 10, 2021)

oops


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## Llyralen (Jan 10, 2021)

I haven’t read everyone’s responses yet, so I’m sorry if I repeat anything, but I think our technology is connecting ideas, people, and genres more and more and I think that will affect how we want to experience our reading.  What if you felt like you could influence a story in real time?  What about the line between story and gaming.  I think that line might blur.   I also think it will just get more this way so that a fairly unknown composer might pair with a fairly unknown author might pair with an unknown illustrator and might join with existing fans to create a music score, art and interactive pieces to a work.   Which would be so cool!   I think blending between all of these things can happen more and more. 

About journalism... a lot could happen with a creative story of an imaginary someone or a real someone who gets highlighted in any conflict in real time so that people can better put together what is happening to people when their town is getting bombed, for instance or when there is terror from cartels or when there is a volcano.  I personally really want something like this... a interview isn’t enough, reality TV is nothing like this, and I (and I’m sure others) want to be able to follow someone through real crisis.   Just the thing is... then people won’t stand for it happening and won’t stand for people to not get aid and I want that!  Big time!  Show me a kid in a cage, show me a Kurd getting bombed out, show me all of it.    I think anyway.... I hope people wouldn’t stand to not help in those cases.  Ugh.... I want to have faith in people, anyway.


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## BrandonTheWriter (Jan 10, 2021)

Taylor said:


> First Time I have heard of fan fiction. Interesting. Not sure how I feel about it. For those of you who don't know, it's fiction written by fans of existing books/TV shows/movies, using existing characters.  It is rarely published, because most of it infringes copyright.    I wonder how the copyright holders feel about it.  On the one hand it's stealing their well-established characters, but then on the other hand I could see how they may find it useful if there is that much interest and activity.  It's almost like free advertising, like for example for the Star Trek series, which I take it was the first one used for the genre.  I could also see a huge market for characters from classics coming back to life.  Who doesn't want to read about Holden Caulfield again.  Although I just noticed that Salinger is still alive at 91.  I wonder if it makes a big difference if the author is living or dead.



I think it is fine as long as it isn't published. I don't really see why anyone would have an issue with that. I mean sure some of it is cringeworthy and bad, but someone cares about your work/characters enough to try to continue it. I think that is admirable and certainly not an easy task. I would struggle writing FanFiction personally.


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## luckyscars (Jan 11, 2021)

We don't need a new genre, we need new material but there is absolutely no need for the perpetual fads and tribalism associated with genre to persist as some sort of designed entity. 

Genre is such a weak term now, so open to overlap, that people can (and do) debate endlessly on what it is. Just about any author trying to submit work has to go through this whole, tortuous game of trying to distill the varying facets of their work down to a singular -- or, at most, double-barreled -- label, to try to 'make it fit'. It's ultimately not a legitimate exercise. 

It's an important exercise, though, simply because publishers are lazy and superficial (because readers are lazy and superficial) so we must play such games, but there is no book that has ever been enhanced by a label. Is Frankenstein better for being considered horror, science fiction, or the loose term 'gothic', or all of the three? Something different entirely, perhaps? Nobody knows. It bares only weak resemblance to most other horror, science fiction or gothic novels so even by agreeing on a label we have not exactly accomplished much.

Yet hours of life have been expended debating the topic, and almost certainly more words written in critique than the book ever contained. More conflict too, no doubt. Which is the bigger horror story, a horror story itself or the hand-wringing waste that goes into debating Said Horror Story?

What is 'paranormal fiction' and why is it important to distinguish it from 'horror fiction'? There are answers to that, I'm sure. The question isn't whether you _can_ argue for the validity of most of these genres but whether you _need_ to. A paranormal fiction story could be said to be different to a horror fiction story because...I don't know...it's less scary? Says who, then? And what about all the other non-horror stories that are generally considered to be very scary? Is Jaws a horror story? Not really. Most horror publishers probably wouldn't give it a glance. It's potentially pretty scary, though, right?

Point being, uh, this is not necessary, guys. Music is a little different (not much, but a little bit) because musical genres are traditionally built on things that are objectively there or not there. It's not possible to disagree over whether rap music is or is not rap music -- if it contains rapping then it is rap music. But even then, yeah, I think it's pretty stupid and in many respects becoming or already become as vague -- I have no idea what 'Indie Music' means anymore. Moreover, I often wonder how many people would like rap or blues or jazz or whatever else if they were absolutely oblivious to it being 'something separate' to the Kind Of Music They Like and the sad truth is we won't know. Often, when we talk about genres, we are talking about ourselves -- our tribal identity. 

I don't totally dismiss the need for genre entirely, though. The traditional genres made a little bit of sense as a means to classify what a reader may want to get out of their writing, or at least avoid. For example, somebody who is lonely and depressed may find it useful to visit the 'romance' section of a library so they can read something that includes a happy ending -- one of the requirements of romantic fiction -- and may have found it useful to avoid 'horror'. To that extent, a genre can be argued as making some sense. I would still probably say it wasn't a net good thing, but it's pretty benign.

Less benign is the garbage that revolves around aesthetics and fads and I-want-exactly-this-setting-and-this-type-of-character-and-this-time-period-or-else-I-won't-enjoy-it. Stuff that is aesthetically based, aimed at regurgitating a shortlist of tropes according to formula, and capturing 'a readership' who is extremely loyal to it and reject others. Steampunk, for example, is entirely vapid as a genre. So is cyberpunk. So is Weird Fiction, techno-thriller, 'chick lit'. These are all squishy, juvenile subcultures masquerading as 'genres' designed to facilitate a tribal approach that distracts from the original point of literature (which is/was, overall, to find or learn something new) and merely becomes a fairly brainless exercise, sort of like watching A Christmas Story for the fiftieth time in your life 'because it's that time of year'. 

People can disagree, though! I personally don't reread books almost ever, don't see the point and don't understand those who do. Books, in my opinion, just aren't there to be re-read. The written word should be there to challenge, perhaps even alter one's perspectives, not merely be a primitive episode in an endless soap opera or a re-watched movie. If you read something properly you should not need to read it again because everything that mattered should have stayed with you the first time and everything that matters now exists in the vast sea of what you have not read yet. People who re-read Harry Potter over and over strike me as odd.


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## Taylor (Jan 11, 2021)

luckyscars said:


> We don't need a new genre, we need new material but there is absolutely no need for the perpetual fads and tribalism associated with genre to persist as some sort of designed entity.



So glad to hear you say this!  Art is supposed to be creative, not formulaic.  



luckyscars said:


> Genre is such a weak term now, so open to overlap, that people can (and do) debate endlessly on what it is. Just about any author trying to submit work has to go through this whole, tortuous game of trying to distill the varying facets of their work down to a singular -- or, at most, double-barreled -- label, to try to 'make it fit'. It's ultimately not a legitimate exercise.



I have stopped trying to do this myself, because frankly, it is soul-destroying.



luckyscars said:


> I don't totally dismiss the need for genre entirely, though. The traditional genres made a little bit of sense as a means to classify what a reader may want to get out of their writing, or at least avoid. For example, somebody who is lonely and depressed may find it useful to visit the 'romance' section of a library so they can read something that includes a happy ending -- one of the requirements of romantic fiction -- and may have found it useful to avoid 'horror'. To that extent, a genre can be argued as making some sense. I would still probably say it wasn't a net good thing, but it's pretty benign.



Yes, I think basic classifications make sense for practical terms. I was pleased to see one of the agents I have been researching has simplified her search to basic categories:

Commercial fiction
Literary fiction
Upmarket women's fiction
Historical fiction
Suspense
Fantasy
Young Adult
Middle grade 
Like she doesn't want to miss out on something new and original because the author gets discouraged by not finding a perfectly correlating genre.  And to me these make more sense, because it is likely how a bookstore or library might break things out.



luckyscars said:


> Less benign is the garbage that revolves around aesthetics and fads and I-want-exactly-this-setting-and-this-type-of-character-and-this-time-period-or-else-I-won't-enjoy-it. Stuff that is aesthetically based, aimed at regurgitating a shortlist of tropes according to formula, and capturing 'a readership' who is extremely loyal to it and reject others. Steampunk, for example, is entirely vapid as a genre.



I don't really know what a trope is.  I only recently welcomed the terms POV and genre into my vocabulary.  But the word "trope", sounds cynical to me, and anti-creative, so I'm not even going to google it...just ignore it.  



luckyscars said:


> Books, in my opinion, just aren't there to be re-read. The written word should be there to challenge, perhaps even alter one's perspectives, not merely be a primitive episode in an endless soap opera or a re-watched movie. If you read something properly you should not need to read it again because everything that mattered should have stayed with you the first time and everything that matters now exists in the vast sea of what you have not read yet. People who re-read Harry Potter over and over strike me as odd.



Yeah, the Harry Potter thing I don't really get either.  But recently, I have been re-reading some of the books that had an impact on me when I was young.  Can't remember much, so still a captivating read.  What's really interesting is the before and after.  How I related to things then and how I relate to things now.  There were a few books I wished I hadn't read.  Now I can see where a bad influence snuck in and lead to a less than perfect decision.


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## luckyscars (Jan 11, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Yes, I think basic classifications make sense for practical terms. I was pleased to see one of the agents I have been researching has simplified her search to basic categories:
> 
> Commercial fiction
> Literary fiction
> ...



Yeah, it's still not ideal though, because she is still basing her genres around things that nobody actually needs to use as categories.

Historical fiction is the most glaring example of something that is obvious bullshit as a genre. Historical fiction is any story that is set in a defined historical period, which is a controversial identifier itself -- the eighties is not yet historical, the fifties is getting there, the twenties is, the 19th century definitely is -- okay, great, now who is deciding this? Strike one.

That isn't so important, though. We can agree there is a sort of unspoken sense as to what 'feels historical', right? Okay, but what else is fundamental to this 'genre'? Nothing. Nothing, that is, that defines the story itself. I can rewrite absolutely any story, whether it be a murder mystery, psychological thriller, sexy romance or slasher and so long as I make it 'historical' enough it's 'historical fiction'. That makes it, as a genre, completely worthless. It means that, once again, it is relying not on anything meaningful or necessary but on whether people want to read about characters in dresses and top hats. 

Even there, it fails, because my 'historical fiction' might be about Romans and Romans Did Not Wear Top Hats. It's not even useful as an identifier of setting. All historical fiction can be assumed to mean is 'no cellphones in this story'.

Fantasy? I don't know what that means either. According to wikipedia 'fantasy is set in a fictional universe'. Okay, well, a lot of stories that definitely aren't considered fantasy can be set in 'fictional universes' of some sort. It's not even true, there are plenty of fantasy books set in the ordinary universe, or something closely resembling it as to make little difference. Again, that isn't to say it's not obvious what is and is not fantasy, however it is true that it's mostly nothing to do with the definition and everything to do with creatures and costumes. It's an aesthetic distinction, not a literary one, which is fine but -- again -- totally superficial and not useful to anybody who wants to actually read.

Young Adult and Middle Grade are simply age groups for marketing (virtually all of genre is for marketing). Calling something YA means not very much except that it's about a kid and to be read by a kid. Might as well have a genre called 'American Fiction': About Americans and for Americans to read. It's that meaningful.



> I don't really know what a trope is.  I only recently welcomed the terms POV and genre into my vocabulary.  But the word "trope", sounds cynical to me, and anti-creative, so I'm not even going to google it...just ignore it.



I love tropes. Used properly, they're really useful and important, mainly as something to be subverted.


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## Llyralen (Jan 12, 2021)

luckyscars said:


> Yeah, it's still not ideal though, because she is still basing her genres around things that nobody actually needs to use as categories.
> 
> Historical fiction is the most glaring example of something that is obvious bullshit as a genre. Historical fiction is any story that is set in a defined historical period, which is a controversial identifier itself -- the eighties is not yet historical, the fifties is getting there, the twenties is, the 19th century definitely is -- okay, great, now who is deciding this? Strike one.



You're talking about crappy historical fiction.  Good historical fiction should be much more than old clothes and no cell phones.  It should be like traveling to another country.  A completely different set of rules, laws and culture is going on. 

I am annoyed by pseudo-historical fiction.  If you have to bend all of the existing cultural rules and if you're not using any facts or events or real life people or the judgements of that different culture then why not move the story to today?   Because you like the clothes?    There's a show out on Netflix right now called _Bridgerton_ and it breaks so many rules of the culture back then, emphasizes other rules incorrectly for some kind of semblance of a plotline and in general is a mess--- but the clothes look pretty. 

Good historical fiction should be deeply researched and you should be able to be submerged in a different way of life that actually happened.  There's a huge difference between "old clothes" 1/5th historical-but-mainly-just-fiction and the real researched McCoy.   I read once that there was a  historical fiction so well researched that they used to make high ranking officers read it to study Napoleon's war tactics.   That should be how it is with the whole genre.... and the best of it is, imo. Compare _Katherine_ by Anya Seton to _Outlander_.  Since I write it I really should find out more about my fellow authors in this area, the deeply researching ones, and I really only know a few.  I do like Bernard Cornwell, and his stuff is pretty well researched.  I love _Atonement_ by McEwan. That was great work writing from the 30's.   _The Year of Wonders_ was pretty interesting and pretty well-researched. 

I don't know... I guess people like the hats.   I also think people like breaking the old rules in favor of popular ideas now, but that kind of drives me crazy if people don't see the implications and think everyone will just agree with them.  Headed for witch burnings, beheadings, Australia or gulags, depending.  =)


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## luckyscars (Jan 12, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> You're talking about crappy historical fiction.  Good historical fiction should be much more than old clothes and no cell phones.  It should be like traveling to another country.  A completely different set of rules, laws and culture is going on.



No, I'm talking about the genre itself. 

Regardless of whether we're talking crappy historical fiction or great historical fiction the point is 'historical' generally only comes down to the setting ('rules, laws and culture') and aesthetic affectations (use 'thou' instead of 'you', say) and not the actual story. Which is why most historical fiction can be transplanted to present day or another time period altogether (as is the case with most modern Shakespeare performances -- The Tempest set in the 1990's Caribbean with the exact same plot and characters) and quite a bit of modern set stories can be 'period set' as well, although that's less common. 

There is very little historical fiction that NEEDS to be historical to make sense, because the history is largely a backdrop rather than a crucial component of the story, which is why -- again -- there is almost no common thread to 'historical fiction'. The Boy In The Striped Pajamas, Pillars Of The Earth, Shakespeare In Love and 11/22/63 are all historical fiction and have absolutely nothing in common, because they are all entirely different genres within this one, nebulous 'historical fiction' genre that doesn't even share commonalities within itself, being that the time periods in question are almost infinite in scope and meaning. 

This makes it meaningless as a literary term, though infinitely vital as a marketing term: Because readers who like stories set during World War Two likely wont be as enthusiastic about a Glorious Revolution setting, or a Dark Ages setting...even though the actual STORY might be almost identical! Historical fiction is about appealing to a reader's pre-formed interest in Period X and then exploiting that to tell a story that may be very good, often is just an ordinary romance or whatever.

I'm finding this right now with my WIP. I love historical fiction because I love history but the time period I picked out (Edwardian) is purely because I like the look and feel of that era and know a bit about it. I could have set it in Ancient Greece and the story itself would hardly have changed, I just would have had to design the set and visual differently, renamed characters, possibly de-Victorianized it. This is very interesting from a costume design standpoint, but it's not all that interesting from a literary standpoint. Most tellingly, now that I have told you it's historical fiction, you still have no clue what it's about...because this isn't a genre that matters.


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## Llyralen (Jan 12, 2021)

Hmm.  This is the problem with having a historical fiction forum too.  There can be an endless amount of “eras” people want to discuss and one person in each getting to talk to no one unless you are in the more popular eras.   
if you’re writing a historical fiction about an actual person then it can take on a biographical element... those are the best researched ones I was mentioning.  I hadn’t gotten your point, I guess I’ve got to read up further.


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## luckyscars (Jan 12, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> Hmm.  This is the problem with having a historical fiction forum too.  There can be an endless amount of “eras” people want to discuss and one person in each getting to talk to no one unless you are in the more popular eras.
> if you’re writing a historical fiction about an actual person then it can take on a biographical element... those are the best researched ones I was mentioning.  I hadn’t gotten your point, I guess I’ve got to read up further.



There are some historical fiction novels that seek to create an accurate (albeit fictionalized) account of *event*. Somebody could make a (tenuous) case that that is a genre, because the historicism is not merely a backdrop, not merely a marketing dress, but something that is fundamental to the story. The Pillars of the Earth is an example of that because it offers a sort of living account of a period and a deep dive. But even then, it's fairly nebulous to say that 'an account of a historical period' is the story itself, because it isn't really -- it can't be, because 'a period' is not a plot. There's an entire plot within that whose identity is not even hinted at through the label. And besides which, of course, most historical fiction isn't 'Earth, isn't nearly as detailed on history as 'Earth, and plainly uses the history as an absolute backdrop. The historical aspects regarding sinking of the Titanic and the attack on Pearl Harbor is entirely secondary to their respective movies: Both are tragic romances and the plot and characters could be easily transposed into anything. Jack & Rose could be on the Costa Concordia, a 747 jumbo jet or a spaceship and it would hardly change anything important other than the scenery, the clothes they wear and the odd reference.

Contrast that with the 'hard' genres: Fantasy, Horror, Romance, etc. and there's a difference that goes beyond simply window dressing. I don't even think those genre classifications should be nearly as important as they are...but you can easily explain why romance is distinctive to horror and it isn't simply to do with scenery or tropes or 'vibe'. A lot of horror fiction involves couples in love and a lot of romance involves the paranormal. There are romances involving vampires and zombies and there are horror novels set in high schools. But romance is romance because it has the love story as its central concern, always ends in some type of happy ending, and is generally optimistic about human nature. Horror has fear and terror as its central concern, rarely ends in a happy ending, and reflects the dark side of human nature. These are genres that have striking similarities across the board and carry a literary significance that would exist outside of publishing. Friday The 13th, The Shining, and Dracula don't resemble each other at all in setting, time period, design, yet they all are inextricably similar in terms of how they function. They all explore the dark side of human nature, they all contain rampant death and misery, they all have fairly unpleasant endings (some horror stories do have happy endings of a sort, but it's bittersweet and usually involves some form of trauma). Basically, these are genres that have their own existence outside of people just wanting them to exist.


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## Llyralen (Jan 12, 2021)

Thinking about the historical fiction I’d like to write, I was just thinking that there should be a genre that is a blend between biography and historical fiction with what I want to do for Beethoven end his love Josephine Brunsvik.   I’d be using their real letters in the book (translated).  I’d be looking at whatever I could find to basically trace Beethoven and her day to day activities.  

The book about Catherine Swyndon Bolingbrook who was the mistress of John of Gaunt was written something like this.  Catherine was the sister in law of Chaucer.  But supposedly John of Gaunt’s daily itineraries were kept so that the author knew exactly what John was doing on a daily basis.  Something like: 
May 30, 1381
8:00 Mass. 
9:00 breakfast 
10:00 archery
11:00. meet Catherine.    
12:00 lunch
13:00 Quell peasant revolt.  

That kind of detail was available to this author. 

I hope I can kind of do the same.  It will take a LOT of research.   I think I need to do it though.

I was into a genre called Historical Fantasy a few years ago.  I bet it has grown.   Guy Gavriel Kay is one of the authors.  You put in fantasy elements believed at the time.  My favorite book of his is about Vikings and King Alfred (but I think he names everything as if it were from a fantasy country) and then you’ve got fairies believed in by the Brit/Welsh and you’ve got sorcery from the Vikings.  It’s really cool, imo.  A Book by a different author that I really should have the respect to look up “The Swan Maiden” got me into it.  She writes about the Irish Deirdre during the time of King Connor/ Connacht and Queen Maeve and just lots of Celtic history along with Celtic/Druidic religion based on what we know but of course we really only know so much.


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## Matchu (Jan 13, 2021)

I like ‘first drafts’...as a genre.  I like the vitality, and risk, and error.  That’s my nomination for new genre.  For example ‘a first draft shootout’ contest would give a lot of pleasure.  We could write free, laugh at ourselves afterward, discuss ‘way to go’/pathways,

Kind of a counterweight to endless draft with which we are all familiar.  Futureways stick a D1 in the top right corner, or 1D as marker of super genre.


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## EternalGreen (Jan 13, 2021)

There's a difference between fiction about history and fiction which uses history as a setting/backdrop.


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## indianroads (Jan 13, 2021)

EternalGreen said:


> There's a difference between fiction about history and fiction which uses history as a setting/backdrop.



To me, fiction about history = alt-history, for example a world where the American revolution never happened.
Fiction as a back drop doesn't change history, and tells the story of someone living through dramatic real events.


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## Taylor (Jan 13, 2021)

EternalGreen said:


> There's a difference between fiction about history and fiction which uses history as a setting/backdrop.



Not sure I understand the first example.  Do you mean something like the Netflix series, _The Crown, w_here the historical events and characters are real, but the dialogue is ficticious?


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## Llyralen (Jan 13, 2021)

I’m not sure what Eternalgreen would use as examples, but The Crown is definitely what I’m talking about with historical fictions that are almost close to biography using some of the things we know people said as much as possible and not deviating from fact or making up new “facts”.  You’re still telling a story but it’s closer to journalism or biography with it being about “finding” the story inside of what actually happened. 

The book I mentioned _Katherine_ by Anya Seton is also about real people and real occurrences like The Crown.   John Cowper Powys also wrote some like this.   Sometimes the biographies of presidents take on some fictional aspects in the way that they are told.

Hamilton, the musical, has a lot of fiction added, well at least in the role of Angelica who was already married when she met Hamilton, although she did say to her sister in a letter “Can you share him?”  But Lin-Manual is aware and makes us aware of what he added.  Anyway, this kind of historical fiction that follows real historical people can require a much greater amount of research than if you’re just using a historical period as a back-drop.

Actually I still haven’t watched The Greatest Showman because I’ve always loved the real Jenny Lind who was adored by basically everyone for the fact that she was an angel and it’s a little known fact, from my research anyway, that she fell in love with Chopin in his last year of life when he was sick and dying. Anyway, I know that’s a funny reason for me not to watch it... but historical fiction about people that does not stick to the facts really bothers me for some reason.  Again, I think real history is more interesting... it’s more interesting what truly happened with Jenny Lind and the circus and in America and with her real suitors and with Chopin’s crazy love life (I mean he REALLY had an interesting love life) that finally boiled down to Jenny than the made-up thing which ends up just striking me as kind of ridiculous in most instances if you know the characters involved and the period. 

Anyway, to really play with the real people at hand and do it well it takes tons of research, but I kind of can’t stand stuff that is off the mark.  But I’m weird... sort of.  I like real for my real stuff and as real as possible.  I like my fantasy to be as real as possible too.... just kidding, but I do like a cohesive world.    Some historical fiction writers are like me I think..  I guess it is kind of a cross with journalism and biography which is why The Crown is an excellent example.  

Alternative historical fiction is a separate genre to me that’s closer to fantasy.   It only takes initial research and then your imagination can take over and create a world.  That’s a big difference from a piece that is most interested in sticking closely to reality which takes loads of ongoing research, usually through the whole process.  

MadMen’s research seems very good and in-depth but the stories of the main characters are fictitious.  Choosing one marketing guy to follow wouldn’t have been as interesting, but it did take ongoing research end many consults of people working in that business to keep that ongoing and correct backdrop of history.  A history that does interact with the characters.

To sum up “historical fiction” has levels.   It’s really a super broad term, probably too broad for one genre.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Jan 13, 2021)

I actually toyed with what I thought was a new genre, held on to that notion for nearly 10 years and then, recently, discovered it had already been done ...


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## Taylor (Jan 13, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> I actually toyed with what I thought was a new genre, held on to that notion for nearly 10 years and then, recently, discovered it had already been done ...



Well that's not such a bad thing.  Shows you were on the right track!  Can I ask which one?


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## BrandonTheWriter (Jan 13, 2021)

Has anyone even done a story in the style of a scrapbook/diary kind of thing? I assume so. A kind of messy and not cleanly presented. As if someone had actually wrote in it from the first person. Maybe with some things crossed out, doodles and stuff like that.

I realise it wouldn't be for everyone, but I have always thought a 'Found Diary' type of story that looks authenic when you open it up and read would be really quite cool.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Jan 13, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Well that's not such a bad thing.  Shows you were on the right track!  Can I ask which one?



It was bringing the reader into the story as if they existed in the world. In fact, I think I'll post it up in the Fiction section. It's called 'The Voyeur'.


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## Taylor (Jan 13, 2021)

BrandonTheWriter said:


> Has anyone even done a story in the style of a scrapbook/diary kind of thing? I assume so. A kind of messy and not cleanly presented. As if someone had actually wrote in it from the first person. Maybe with some things crossed out, doodles and stuff like that.
> 
> I realise it wouldn't be for everyone, but I have always thought a 'Found Diary' type of story that looks authenic when you open it up and read would be really quite cool.



The diary of Anne Frank comes to mind.  And I think Candace Bushnell's _Sex in the City _was based on a diary of sorts. 

 But I like your idea of the actual presentation, and is exactly the fluid type of thing I was thinking of in terms of a literary version of realilty TV.  You wouldn't need a pre-set plot per se.  And the conflict, obstacles and resolutions would come about more naturally.

Love the doodles too.  That is original!


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## BrandonTheWriter (Jan 13, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> It was bringing the reader into the story as if they existed in the world. In fact, I think I'll post it up in the Fiction section. It's called 'The Voyeur'.



That is a really cool idea, you should definitely post it.


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## Taylor (Jan 13, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> I read once that there was a  historical fiction so well researched that they used to make high ranking officers read it to study Napoleon's war tactics.   That should be how it is with the whole genre.... and the best of it is, imo. Compare _Katherine_ by Anya Seton to _Outlander_.  Since I write it I really should find out more about my fellow authors in this area, the deeply researching ones, and I really only know a few.  I do like Bernard Cornwell, and his stuff is pretty well researched.  I love _Atonement_ by McEwan. That was great work writing from the 30's.   _The Year of Wonders_ was pretty interesting and pretty well-researched.



Imagine starting a new genre of fictional college resources.  Hire authors who write non-fiction geography, history or finance texts, and team them up with fiction writers to create a sort of fictional texbook for college level curriculum.   I know Random House already does it for elementary school kids.  But why not for adults too? I would love to work on a project like that!

I'm going to coin it here -- Fictional Textbooks. Hey Wiley and Random House...are you seeing this?


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## Llyralen (Jan 13, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Imagine starting a new genre of fictional college resources.  Hire authors who write non-fiction geography, history or finance texts, and team them up with fiction writers to create a sort of fictional texbook for college level curriculum.   I know Random House already does it for elementary school kids.  But why not for adults too? I would love to work on a project like that!
> 
> I'm going to coin it here -- Fictional Textbooks. Hey Wiley and Random House...are you seeing this?




There is this fantastic series about the Black Plague in Europe on YouTube, I will link it.  The speaker says she also thinks literature is the best way to really dig into history and that there is a historian who uses story to discuss what was goin on in different areas.  Story makes you care.  That’s a historian blending fiction and creating a new genre just like you’re talking about! 

  I read that emotionally we really can’t think in statistics about devastating things.  For instance hearing 6 million Jews were killed in WW2 has a response to the number “Thats a lot of people” but that it takes telling the story of just 1 person so that we can put ourselves into their shoes. We can related to,  “Anne Frank was killed.”  Knowing that there is a real person there.  This is my idea behind interactive journalism as well.  Basically our minds can learn better learn impact and meaning and empathy through story. 

I know with my historical fictions because I try to be in the shoes of someone then it makes me ask many more questions then I would ever ask in a history class.  I learn a lot more. 

This series on the plague is fantastic..... and dang it they took it off of YouTube!   It’s “The Black Death: The World’s Most Devastating Plague.”      Highly recommended to anyone needing information about how different towns and regions were affected by the plague including how the plague affected society and thought and literature.


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## Taylor (Jan 13, 2021)

luckyscars said:


> There are some historical fiction novels that seek to create an accurate (albeit fictionalized) account of *event*. Somebody could make a (tenuous) case that that is a genre, because the historicism is not merely a backdrop, not merely a marketing dress, but something that is fundamental to the story. The Pillars of the Earth is an example of that because it offers a sort of living account of a period and a deep dive. But even then, it's fairly nebulous to say that 'an account of a historical period' is the story itself, because it isn't really -- it can't be, because 'a period' is not a plot. There's an entire plot within that whose identity is not even hinted at through the label. And besides which, of course, most historical fiction isn't 'Earth, isn't nearly as detailed on history as 'Earth, and plainly uses the history as an absolute backdrop. The historical aspects regarding sinking of the Titanic and the attack on Pearl Harbor is entirely secondary to their respective movies: Both are tragic romances and the plot and characters could be easily transposed into anything. Jack & Rose could be on the Costa Concordia, a 747 jumbo jet or a spaceship and it would hardly change anything important other than the scenery, the clothes they wear and the odd reference.



I'm not sure I can agree with you on this.  I think the historical aspects of _Titanic_ and _Pearl Harbour_ were central to their popularity. In both cases, the facts of the event are unique to the historical event.  What is interesting or educational about yet another story about a 747 jumbo jet or spaceship?  

Maybe it's just me, but I seek out these types of historical stories because I like to learn something about the world when I read fiction.  I am a big fan of James A. Michener who covered the lives of many generations in particular geographic locales while incorporating a detailed history.  He was known for his meticulous research and realistic portrayal of historical facts.



Llyralen said:


> Again, I think real history is more interesting... it’s more interesting what truly happened with Jenny Lind and the circus and in America and with her real suitors and with Chopin’s crazy love life (I mean he REALLY had an interesting love life) that finally boiled down to Jenny than the made-up thing which ends up just striking me as kind of ridiculous in most instances if you know the characters involved and the period.



Agree!  It made me think of the movie Amadeus. Although, I doubt that Sallieri took Mozart home to write the Requiem...lol!  But what a wonderful premise to portray the genius of one composer over another. 



Llyralen said:


> MadMen’s research seems very good and in-depth but the stories of the main characters are fictitious.  Choosing one marketing guy to follow wouldn’t have been as interesting, but it did take ongoing research end many consults of people working in that business to keep that ongoing and correct backdrop of history.  A history that does interact with the characters.
> 
> To sum up “historical fiction” has levels.   It’s really a super broad term, probably too broad for one genre.



Agree with you both, "historial fiction" is too broad for a genre, and it is questionable as luckyscars says that anything after the 50s could be considered historical.

But when you bring up _MadMen_, it could be considered of a relatively new genre.  I don't know what you would call it.  There is another series on Netflix called _Halt and Catch Fire_.  It also uses an industry's evolution as a back drop.  The characters are also fictitious, but likely based on real people.  It does seem that there is a demand for this type of "factual" fiction. It seems more popular in scripts that go straight to TV or movies. However, _The Devil Wears Prada_ was a book first, and based on Anna Wintour, a real person, so there is a place for modernish, historical literature that shares the industry insider's look with the reader.  

I'm using an early 21st century crime as the basis for my novel. I condsider it historic in nature, because of the profound effect the crime had on the industry. The factual story itself is as important as the fictitious characters and love story that I have woven around it.  I actually am hoping to educate my reader on some sophisticated concepts around finance and law.  Something that they may find interesting and not had a chance to learn about yet.  Hope it's not a snoozer...won't be for everyone no doubt.


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## luckyscars (Jan 14, 2021)

Taylor said:


> I'm not sure I can agree with you on this. I think the historical aspects of _Titanic_ and _Pearl Harbour_ were central to their popularity. In both cases, the facts of the event are unique to the historical event. What is interesting or educational about yet another story about a 747 jumbo jet or spaceship?



I am not saying the historical aspects (loosely defined) weren't central to their popularity. I'm saying that the popularity of those historical aspects has nothing to do with the actual story and, therefore, it's not a genre that has any value to a writer. It has no value because what makes it unique has nothing to do with the story between Jack & Rose, which is not unique at all, and everything to do with the backdrop of the historical event, which is generally quite arbitrary.

For ex: I could download the Titanic script, make some very minor changes to avoid obvious plagiarism, then rebrand it as 'Hindenburg' and, so long as people find the Hindenburg disaster sufficiently appealing, I have done everything I need to do to create another popular piece of historical fiction. Because the unique appeal of _Titanic_ comes solely from the ship and how the audience responds emotionally to the ship. It does not come from anything the scriptwriter can affect through writing. That's true for, I would say, most popular historical fiction.


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## estranguerro (Jan 14, 2021)

Writers will always find something new to write. One can only write so much of the same stuff and not burn themselves out with it. As much as the audience would want something new to read, writers will want to challenge themselves with new ideas, too.

Writing stories in bite-sized consumables in the same way that YouTube and Tiktok do can be seen in penny dreadfuls and light novels, capturing readers in the hype of the moment in the pages rather than the slower burn of longer novels. It'll be an interesting experiment to write, especially in this day of shortening attention spans.


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## Taylor (Jan 14, 2021)

Matchu said:


> I like ‘first drafts’...as a genre.  I like the vitality, and risk, and error.  That’s my nomination for new genre.  For example ‘a first draft shootout’ contest would give a lot of pleasure.  We could write free, laugh at ourselves afterward, discuss ‘way to go’/pathways,
> 
> Kind of a counterweight to endless draft with which we are all familiar.  Futureways stick a D1 in the top right corner, or 1D as marker of super genre.



Yes, many of you speak of these multiples drafts.  I'm still working on my first draft so I can't imagine this yet.  When you say "draft", I'm never too sure what that means.  Is each new draft just edited?  Or do you actually write a new draft?


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## Taylor (Jan 14, 2021)

estranguerro said:


> Writers will always find something new to write. One can only write so much of the same stuff and not burn themselves out with it. As much as the audience would want something new to read, writers will want to challenge themselves with new ideas, too.
> 
> Writing stories in bite-sized consumables in the same way that YouTube and Tiktok do can be seen in penny dreadfuls and light novels, capturing readers in the hype of the moment in the pages rather than the slower burn of longer novels. It'll be an interesting experiment to write, especially in this day of shortening attention spans.



This is the first I had heard of penny dreadfuls.  Wikipedia describes it as: _"cheap popular serial literature produced during the nineteenth century in the United Kingdom."_They also say that they were aimed at working class men. Typically the stories were of crimes.  It's funny that the newer genre of cozy mysteries is widely read more by women over 40.  

Seems like there will always be some sort of re-invention of the crime story genre.  But I see your point about the hype of the moment.  If people crave this thrill, why make them read a whole novel.  Maybe someone is already doing this, but I can see a website like Tiktok, that is entirely dedicated to quicky crime stories. There could be rules around length, maybe the website will limit the amount of words that can be uploaded.  The user can log in and either post one or read one.  There could be a comment section for readers to discuss.  Also a rating system will help users to identify the most popular writers.  And it could use the YouTube model, where after a certain number of reads the writer gets a cash payout.  That would keep the quality of the stories high?

Any ideas for a genre name?


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## Matchu (Jan 14, 2021)

...like an exam write, straight off the bat 800 words in the hour, appreciated as much for error as for energy.  Yes, we understand this diamond will polish toward 2000, or 80 000 words, but an appreciation of first flourish & imagination...often lost when all the dull conjunctions join to play...

Also antidote to mindset of ever-approaching unveiling to audience of zero upon Amazon platform ten year journey...which is cruel anti-pleasure...


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## Taylor (Jan 14, 2021)

Matchu said:


> ...like an exam write, straight off the bat 800 words in the hour, appreciated as much for error as for energy.  Yes, we understand this diamond will polish toward 2000, or 80 000 words, but an appreciation of first flourish & imagination...often lost when all the dull conjunctions join to play...
> 
> Also antidote to mindset of ever-approaching unveiling to audience of zero upon Amazon platform ten year journey...which is cruel anti-pleasure...



Aha...yes, I see what you mean. It reminds me of once when I was in the Louvre in Paris. Way down in the basement is a special Michelangelo section. There they have many of his unfinished sculptures. I guess most people don't see a value in them. Perhaps they are the ones he abandoned because they weren't working out, or maybe he was like most artists always attracted to a new shiny object. But it is a pleasure to see the raw energy as you say. You can imagine the artist at work. 

Sometimes I think the artists first work is perfection...and then the conjures of completion slowly destroy it.   I can see a genre as you speak of, but likely only for other authors to appreciate.


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## Matchu (Jan 14, 2021)

Yes...naturally the ‘movement’ will take centuries to embed.  I’m probably *Founder, apostles about the place, and now I’m stuck on bold forever, appropriate.

As is the way with things, ‘writers’ initially, civilians possibly at their universities? + scum on Facebook.*


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## indianroads (Jan 14, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Aha...yes, I see what you mean. It reminds me of once when I was in the Louvre in Paris. Way down in the basement is a special Michelangelo section. There they have many of his unfinished sculptures. I guess most people don't see a value in them. Perhaps they are the ones he abandoned because they weren't working out, or maybe he was like most artists always attracted to a new shiny object. But it is a pleasure to see the raw energy as you say. You can imagine the artist at work.
> 
> Sometimes I think the artists first work is perfection...and then the conjures of completion slowly destroy it.   I can see a genre as you speak of, but likely only for other authors to appreciate.



I visited Michelangelo's museum in Florence - saw the statue of David obviously, but there was also an exhibition of his uncompleted works. I was told that he believed the sculpture already existed in perfect form within the stone, and his job was to reveal it. Some of those works looked as if the figure were struggling to free themselves from the stone.

A lot of great museums in that city.

I worked for Olivetti in the USA at the time and went to Italy for several weeks every year.


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## Taylor (Jan 14, 2021)

indianroads said:


> Some of those works looked as if the figure were struggling to free themselves from the stone.



Yes!  That was exactly what I thought too!!



indianroads said:


> I worked for Olivetti in the USA at the time and went to Italy for several weeks every year.



Funny, I also spent several weeks every year doing business in Florence. Firenze -- such a beautiful city.  Aren't we lucky!  

A typical business meeting would be conducted on a massive antique table, over a persian carpet covering a worn terracotta tile floor.  Antipasto would be served with a large glass of red wine. Louvered french doors would open from a Tuscan style room with excessively high ceilings to an ornate iron balcony -- sun shining in.

What did a typical business setting look like for you?


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## indianroads (Jan 14, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Yes!  That was exactly what I thought too!!
> 
> Funny, I also spent several weeks every year doing business in Florence. Firenze -- such a beautiful city.  Aren't we lucky!
> 
> A typical business meeting would be conducted on a massive antique table, over a persian carpet covering a worn terracotta tile floor.  Antipasto would be served with a large glass of red wine. Louvered french doors would open from a Tuscan style room with excessively high ceilings to an ornate iron balcony -- sun shining in.



I got to work with Italians that did the same sort of work I did - they had a very different process. I visited their homes, met their families. Was taken out to trattorias for dinner and drank too much grappa. I even trained at a local Karate school while there and competed in a tournament. 

My wife came over with me a few times. I was on a company expense account, so her trip only cost us airfare.


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## Taylor (Jan 14, 2021)

indianroads said:


> I got to work with Italians that did the same sort of work I did - they had a very different process. I visited their homes, met their families. Was taken out to trattorias for dinner and drank too much grappa. I even trained at a local Karate school while there and competed in a tournament.



All of these wonderful experiences filter into our writing.


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## indianroads (Jan 14, 2021)

Taylor said:


> All of these wonderful experiences filter into our writing.



Absolutely.


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## Bloggsworth (Jan 15, 2021)

I prefer "no genre" - I'm as happy reading Austen as Robert B Parker, Chekhov as Len Deighton or Adam Hall. What I want is a good story well told, subject matter is secondary. I stopped using my local library when it split the shelves into genres as I used to start at A and work my way through picking up books, reading a bit and deciding whether or not to take them home, that's how I discovered Sara Paretsky, David Dobbs and others.


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## Taylor (Jan 15, 2021)

Bloggsworth said:


> I prefer "no genre" - I'm as happy reading Austen as Robert B Parker, Chekhov as Len Deighton or Adam Hall. What I want is a good story well told, subject matter is secondary. I stopped using my local library when it split the shelves into genres as I used to start at A and work my way through picking up books, reading a bit and deciding whether or not to take them home, that's how I discovered Sara Paretsky, David Dobbs and others.



Totally agree when it comes to libraries.  Imagine missing out on a good book because, the story was a bit of a hybrid genre, so the classifier had to choose one, and it wasn't the one where you were looking. 

I just moved to a small town and it is so refreshing to see the shelves of the local library organized just in "Fiction", "Non-fiction" and "History".  And like you, I want to indulge myself in whatever catches my eye. The back blurb will tell me what I need to know.  And likely, the best novels are not so formulaic as to fit into just one genre.    To have someone pre-screen books to decide what catergory they belong in, seems too pragmatic for the imaginative process of finding your next good read.


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## indianroads (Jan 15, 2021)

Not a new genre by far - but lately I've noticed a resurgence in anti-government plot lines. The stories are akin to how Stalin came to power, but of course - they're set in modern times.


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## Taylor (Jan 15, 2021)

indianroads said:


> Not a new genre by far - but lately I've noticed a resurgence in anti-government plot lines. The stories are akin to how Stalin came to power, but of course - they're set in modern times.



That's interesting!  Anything written about coups in current day would have to include the whole social media aspect of the over-take.  It's an interesting dynamic and we have witnessed the result of social media in politics in the last five years or so.  It could be classified as 'Political Suspense'.   I feel a WIP coming on.


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## MistWolf (Jan 16, 2021)

From an article in the _New Yorker_



> ...a good genre system—a system that really fits reality—can help us see the traditions in which we’re already, unconsciously, immersed. As it happens, there is such a system: it was invented by the Canadian literary critic Northrop Frye, and laid out in his 1957 masterwork, “Anatomy of Criticism”...
> 
> ...Frye’s scheme is simple. In his view, the world of fiction is composed of four braided genres: novel, romance, anatomy, and confession.



https://www.newyorker.com/books/joshua-rothman/better-way-think-genre-debate


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## MistWolf (Jan 16, 2021)

Taylor said:


> That's interesting!  Anything written about coups in current day would have to include the whole social media aspect of the over-take.  It's an interesting dynamic and we have witnessed the result of social media in politics in the last five years or so.  It could be classified as 'Political Suspense'.   I feel a WIP coming on.


Joseph Goebbels, Reich Minister of Propaganda, was a master of manipulating the social media of his time


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## Pallandozi (Jan 16, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Do you think we are ready for a new genre?
> 
> What would it look like to you?



LitRPG is relatively new (first use of the word 2013, though there are examples of books that might fit it dating back earlier than that.)


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## EternalGreen (Jan 16, 2021)

indianroads said:


> Not a new genre by far - but lately I've noticed a resurgence in anti-government plot lines. The stories are akin to how Stalin came to power, but of course - they're set in modern times.



Those are called "adventure" novels usually.




Pallandozi said:


> LitRPG is relatively new (first use of the word 2013, though there are examples of books that might fit it dating back earlier than that.)



Glorified fanfiction is what a lot of that is . . .


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## indianroads (Jan 16, 2021)

EternalGreen said:


> Those are called "adventure" novels usually.



That's a rather large bucket, but I suppose Atlas Shrugged, Fahrenheit 451, 1884, Brave New World, Animal Farm, and the like could be called adventures.


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## Taylor (Jan 18, 2021)

MistWolf said:


> Joseph Goebbels, Reich Minister of Propaganda, was a master of manipulating the social media of his time



Indeed! There is a mastermind of propaganda behind all fascist governments.  Their access to the internet adds an efficiency to their dirty work, but also a treachery as they scramble to block free speech. 

With recent social media events being of extreme interest to the public, I could see a new genre, emerging, based in internet warfare.  There are any number of scenarios that a fiction author could imagine, far before society would become a dystopia.  But I could see it bleeding into the dystopian genre as well.


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## Taylor (Jan 18, 2021)

MistWolf said:


> From an article in the _New Yorker_
> 
> https://www.newyorker.com/books/joshua-rothman/better-way-think-genre-debate



Do I have to subscribe to read the article?  I only see a few paragraphs.


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## Taylor (Jan 18, 2021)

Pallandozi said:


> LitRPG is relatively new (first use of the word 2013, though there are examples of books that might fit it dating back earlier than that.)



Interesting! Through this thread I have changed my concept of what I previously cast in one big basket as "computer games".

According to Wikipedia:

_"Literary Role Playing Games, are a literary genre combining the conventions of computer RPGs with science-fiction and fantasy novels. Typically, the main character in a LitRPG novel is consciously interacting with the game or game-like world and attempting to progress within it."_

Seems like it is an evolution of previous role playing games like Dungeons and Dragons, that tie novels in with a game. It sounds incredibly costly to develop. I also had some cause for alarm to see the type of challenges that are essential parts of the story, such as strength, intelligence, '_damage'_. Wikipedia also cites that a Russian publishing initiative identified the genre and gave it a name. Perhaps my mind is a little overactive from my previous post on propaganda, but that is a little scary!

I was also thinking about how costly it would be to develop such a game. And what would be the viable revenue model. Subscriptions, or the Google model, selling advertising. I'm thinking the latter would be more lucrative.

Who is the target market?


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## MistWolf (Jan 18, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Do I have to subscribe to read the article?  I only see a few paragraphs.


I didn't


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## Taylor (Jan 18, 2021)

MistWolf said:


> I didn't



hmmm...Maybe because I'm in different country?


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## Pallandozi (Jan 20, 2021)

Taylor said:


> I was also thinking about how costly it would be to develop such a game. And what would be the viable revenue model. Subscriptions, or the Google model, selling advertising. I'm thinking the latter would be more lucrative.
> 
> Who is the target market?



Some LitRPG books (or web novels) are based on otome games like Wizardess Heart:



> The game follows the story of a young wizardess who enters the Royal Magic Academy where she must grow her magic and prove herself before becoming a full-fledged student at the academy.




So the novel might be told from the perspective of a woman who was playing such a game, fell asleep, then woke up to find herself in the game world... as the villainess who gets executed at the end for bullying the heroine.    The book would then follow the woman's struggles to avoid the destiny awaiting her, by using the villainess' powers and noble connection help the heroine rather than persecute her.


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## Taylor (Jan 20, 2021)

Pallandozi said:


> Some LitRPG books (or web novels) are based on otome games like Wizardess Heart:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What age group would this be geared to?


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## Pallandozi (Jan 21, 2021)

Taylor said:


> What age group would this be geared to?



At a guess?    I suspect LitRPG books tend to be read by the demographic who play computer games, especially multi-player online fantasy role playing games.   So anywhere from teenage upwards?

The best place to ask would be:

https://www.reddit.com/r/litrpg/
or
https://litrpgforum.com/


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## Taylor (Jan 21, 2021)

Pallandozi said:


> At a guess?    I suspect LitRPG books tend to be read by the demographic who play computer games, especially multi-player online fantasy role playing games.   So anywhere from teenage upwards?
> 
> The best place to ask would be:
> 
> ...



So to play, do you have to have a special console, or can you just play on your laptop or phone?


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## Pallandozi (Jan 21, 2021)

Taylor said:


> So to play, do you have to have a special console, or can you just play on your laptop or phone?



LitRPG is a genre of book.    You can get paper versions.    You read them, no computers required.

The background of the stories involves computer games, but you don't need computers to read them, any more than you need a real life spaceship in order to read a science fiction novel.


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## Taylor (Jan 21, 2021)

Pallandozi said:


> LitRPG is a genre of book.    You can get paper versions.    You read them, no computers required.
> 
> The background of the stories involves computer games, but you don't need computers to read them, any more than you need a real life spaceship in order to read a science fiction novel.



So now I'm really confused.  The MC is a computer character and the story is about the computer game?  Was there ever a real computer game to begin with?


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## Pallandozi (Jan 21, 2021)

For example:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08F65S9K9/




[h=1]Dungeon World: Books 1 - 5 [COLOR=#565959 !important]Paperback[/COLOR][/h]This Dungeon World Series Box Set includes:

Dungeon World Books 1 – 5
[FONT=&quot]Hand-drawn maps I used while writing the series

[/FONT]*In a world five times larger than Earth, dungeons and their Dungeon Cores have become the top of the food chain.

Millions of dungeons inhabit the planet, utilizing the Human people as a source of much-needed Mana to facilitate their own growth; in turn, the humans delve into the dungeons to acquire their own power in the form of Essence, which allows them to develop and enhance themselves in a multitude of different ways. It is a symbiotic relationship that has lasted thousands of years and has brought about a measure of peace.

Far in the northern wilds where no Humans (and therefore – no dungeons) regularly frequent, a young man is left alone when his parents are suddenly murdered. Now, without friends, family, supplies, or even much knowledge of the wider world, Fredwynklemossering embarks on a journey to discover who – or what – killed his parents. Along the way, however, he learns more than he bargained for, including his seemingly impossible status as a Dungeon Core/Human hybrid. With that knowledge comes a shift in his objective; revenge against those who wronged him turns out to pale in comparison to the dangers the Humans will face in the future.

Will Fred be able to successfully straddle the line between the Human and Dungeon Core worlds? Unfortunately, he’ll have to, or else the entire Dungeon World may be doomed…

Contains 564,000 words, LitRPG/GameLit elements such as statistics and leveling, as well as dungeon construction and defense. No harems and no profanity.*


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## Pallandozi (Jan 21, 2021)

Taylor said:


> So now I'm really confused.  The MC is a computer character and the story is about the computer game?  Was there ever a real computer game to begin with?



There are lot of very well known computer games.    World of Warcraft, for example.

Some LitRPG will be set in a known existing game, but that is likely to get them sued for copyright.

Some will be set in a thin-veiled version of a particular existing game.

Most will be set in a game that's never actually been written, but which borrows enough mechanics and vocabulary from existing games (eg "hit points", "levels", "mana", "skills", "items") that it will be familiar to the reader.

Quite a few of those are set in a game which couldn't be written yet, with today's technology, but might plausibly be released 20 years into the future using virtual reality.

And you have Isekai crossovers, where the protagonist is born into a world that seems real, but just happen to function in a way that is similar to the way the worlds portrayed in computer games function.   Or is resurrect there, or mysteriously transported there somehow, etc.


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## Taylor (Jan 21, 2021)

Pallandozi said:


> For example:
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08F65S9K9/
> 
> ...



I love that the world of literature has taken back it's rightful territory in the minds of young readers!


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## EmmaSohan (Feb 6, 2021)

A bookstore needs genres. It needs a manageable number, and it needs well-known genres. Libraries are the same.

Same for music. But . .  I am listening to a music service that allows me to play almost any music. And when I find someone I like, it suggests music resembling that. And it allows me to create play-lists.

And when you put that together, I can create my own genre. It's been my project this week.

And Amazon and Goodreads and every online book seller is going to (sooner or later, probably already) do the same thing.

So, I wrote a book that is equal parts romance and adventure. I can foolishly try to sell that as a genre to an agent, but we both know it will never be a bookstore genre. What I need is an artificial intelligence that can say, "If you liked _Twilight _you might like _Emotion Girl_."


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## Taylor (Feb 6, 2021)

EmmaSohan said:


> A bookstore needs genres. It needs a manageable number, and it needs well-known genres. Libraries are the same.
> 
> Same for music. But . .  I am listening to a music service that allows me to play almost any music. And when I find someone I like, it suggests music resembling that. And it allows me to create play-lists.
> 
> ...



I don't see why bookstores wouldn't have a romance/adventure section.  If they don't, they should.  Aren't many block buster movies based on that premise?  Why does Harrison ford come to mind? 

I don't know much about the literary search engines, perhaps someone else who has published on Amazon can weigh in.   It seems to me there would be more search terms than just genre.


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