# MASCULINE Love Stories...



## ViKtoricus (Nov 12, 2013)

Hello people. ViKtoricus again with a
new topic.





I noticed that there seems to be three
kinds of love stories. Feminine Love Stories, Masculine Love Stories,
and Femisculine Love Stories. An example of a Feminine Love Story is
Twilight, where Kristen Stewart is the main character. An example of
a Femisculine Love Story is Romeo and Juliet, where both characters
are in distress.





What I prefer though, are these things
I call Masculine Love Stories. I say “Masculine” because the main
character is male and the theme involves something very “Masculine”.
It is difficult for me to describe exactly what these masculine love
stories are, but generally, when I watch them, I get a very
“I'm-your-knight-and-shining-armor-and-I'll-save-you-from-the-dragon”
type of feeling from them. The heroine is always in distress and/or
the hero is always trying to rescue her from something (or conquer
her). I really really enjoy these love stories. Check out these
examples:





Final Fantasy 8:   It is a love story
about a young woman who turns into a sorceress, causing the world to
fear her and to want her dead. Her boyfriend, Squall (the main
protagonist), rescues her from the people who are trying to seal her
powers and becomes her “knight”.





Daimos: It is about a man who is
in-love with a female of this angel-like species whom are the enemy
of the human race.





Flame of Recca: It is about a man who
swore to be the protector of this woman whom he calls his “princess”.





Shrek: I recommend you watch the movie
and its sequels if you haven't yet.





SwordArt Online: It is about a boy who
bought this video game that sucked him into the virtual world where
he can't escape. I don't know the story as I don't watch it, but I
know that he has this girlfriend (maybe he met her in the virtual
world, maybe he already knew her before that) who ended up being
forcefully engaged to a vicious man that she hates.













Here's a very dark scene from SwordArt
Online. I don't remember the dialogue but here's basically what
happened... I turned on my TV during the Toonami hours of Cartoon
Network's Adult Swim and this is the scene that greeted me.





The vicious man who lusts for Asuna
(the protagonist's girlfriend) is in a hospital room with the
protagonist, *and the unconscious body of the girl *(Asuna).
The vicious man bends down, grabs Asuna's hair, and smells it, right
in front of the protagonist... Yeah, imagine that for a moment. They
showed the angered face of the protagonist, of course. The vicious
man then tells the protagonist that he will marry Asuna, and then
*licks his lips*. He talks
about how Asuna (who was unconscious at the moment) would be
forcefully married to him. The protagonist threw a fit, almost
getting physical with the man. But the man tells the protagonist
about the inevitability of the situation. And then they showed
despair in the protagonist's face... Fast forward, protagonist went
home crying and got comforted by his female cousin.













These are the kinds of love stories
that I want to write, or, at the very least, incorporate into my
novels. Love doesn't have to be the main theme but I want it to have
a “Masculine Love Story”. I want them to show the male
protagonist's struggle to save his woman. I don't know if this
applies to all men, but these kinds of stories seem to spark
something inside of me. I'm very masochistic about it. It's like
watching an extremely suspenseful thriller, or a really really scary
horror movie. You hate the feeling of fear, but you somehow love
inducing it to yourself.





My question is, how do you make these
love stories? Do you guys know other love stories that are like
these? What is the one thing that is common with all these stories?


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## Morkonan (Nov 12, 2013)

Love stories are told just like any other story - Through the related experiences of the Narrator and the Characters.

You want to write a particular sort of love story? Then, choose the appropriate sorts of characters for it and put the situations in place that are necessary to yield the love story you want to write about. That's the "how" of writing.

Note: Some of the things you listed aren't love stories, they're... Well, I dunno what they are, but they're not "love stories." Games, manga, maybe... But, you should read some books with love stories in them in order to get an idea of what its all about.


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## ViKtoricus (Nov 12, 2013)

Morkonan said:


> Note: Some of the things you listed aren't love stories, they're... Well, I dunno what they are, but they're not "love stories." Games, manga, maybe... But, you should read some books with love stories in them in order to get an idea of what its all about.



They too are love stories. Final Fantasy 8 is a DEFINITE love story. Daimos is a DEFINITE love story. Heck, even Shrek is a love story. Romance is a strong theme in them.


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## Sam (Nov 12, 2013)

Your masculine love story is the archetypal damsel-in-distress tale and thus massively cliché. If you want to write a good love story, both characters have to be strong-willed and able to look after themselves, otherwise you'll end up alienating the core group to which the story will be aimed: women.


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## Schrody (Nov 12, 2013)

Morkonan said:


> But, you should read some books with love stories in them in order to get an idea of what its all about.



I recommend Susan Elizabeth Philips, males in her books are always alpha men's, even though females are mostly main characters. She's easy to read, and she makes you fall in love with her stories.


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## Schrody (Nov 12, 2013)

ViKtoricus said:


> They too are love stories. Final Fantasy 8 is a DEFINITE love story. Daimos is a DEFINITE love story. Heck, even Shrek is a love story. Romance is a strong theme in them.



Twilight isn't a love story. That's some paranormal/fantasy/whatever story with elements of love.


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## ViKtoricus (Nov 12, 2013)

Sam said:


> Your masculine love story is the archetypal damsel-in-distress tale and thus massively cliché. If you want to write a good love story, both characters have to be strong-willed and able to look after themselves, otherwise you'll end up alienating the core group to which the story will be aimed: women.



What if the story involves both strong-willed characters BUT it's still about a man saving a woman?

Is that still cliche?


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## ViKtoricus (Nov 12, 2013)

Schrody said:


> Twilight isn't a love story. That's some paranormal/fantasy/whatever story with elements of love.



Okay cool. What I want to write then are paranormal/fantasy/sci-fi/actiion with elements of love.

Kind of like Final Fantasy 8.


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## FleshEater (Nov 12, 2013)

Comparing a game, or manga, or anime, whatever, is nothing like tackling the written word. As posted above, you need to read more of what you want to write. Buy some novels, and read through them.


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## Schrody (Nov 12, 2013)

ViKtoricus said:


> What if the story involves both strong-willed characters BUT it's still about a man saving a woman?
> 
> Is that still cliche?



It's not cliche if the story is well written (of course, you do need a good story). If you fail there, it might fell into the trap of cliches.



ViKtoricus said:


> Okay cool. What I want to write then are paranormal/fantasy/sci-fi/actiion with elements of love.
> 
> Kind of like Final Fantasy 8.



Well then, write some paranormal romance. Werewolves, vampires, zombies, etc., or make your own "not form this world" creatures.


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## Morkonan (Nov 12, 2013)

ViKtoricus said:


> They too are love stories. Final Fantasy 8 is a DEFINITE love story.



No. It is a game.

You have to understand something - Products are produced with purpose. What's the purpose of Final Fantasy 8? It is NOT purposefully produced as a love story. Instead, it has elements of a love story that center around whatever the producers think makes good game play. Is there writing in it? Sure! Could there even be a decent attempt to present a love story? Absolutely. Is it a love story? No, it's a game.

In a written love-story novel, what are you getting? You're getting the full deal, the real cheese, the complete special sauce... In other words, you're getting a fully realized love story. You are not getting just a few little pieces, here and there. You're getting all the nuances and every single bit of it is told with written words. That's another thing - Manga may have writing in it, but it's not a "novel." It's primary purpose is to tell a story with artwork. That's not what writing is about. Yes, you can tell some great stories with comics and couple them with some words. But, if you have to describe the expression on a character's face in such a way as to evoke heady emotion from a reader, you're entering into an entirely different class than "graphic novel." A graphic novel "writer" has three-quarters of their work done for them by a visual artist. If that's what you want to be, that's fine. But, if you want to write novels, you're not going to learn how to do that by cheesing your way through in letting some guy draw what you're trying to say - You have to say it.



> Heck, even Shrek is a love story. Romance is a strong theme in them.



Shrek is a sort of love story, that's true. But, it's meant for children. (Even though there may be a few things in Shrek that push a few traditional boundaries.) Is it children's love stories that you want to write? That's fine and there are some great children's stories that have love in them, but most of them are straight rip-offs from Grimm's Fairy Tales or A Thousand and One Nights... 

If you want to write love stories for novels, read novels that have love stories in them. IMO, and I'm certainly a traditionalist in this regard, a "Manga" is not a "Novel." It may be a novel-length production, but it's still just a big comic book with some words in it. So, I can understand if we disagree, here. I know many people favor graphic novels as high forms of art. In some cases they are. But, they're not high forms of literary art.


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## alanmt (Nov 12, 2013)

I like masculine love stories also.  Preferably with two strong masculine men in them.


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## Schrody (Nov 12, 2013)

Morkonan said:


> IMO, and I'm certainly a traditionalist in this regard, a "Manga" is not a "Novel." It may be a novel-length production, but it's still just a big comic book with some words in it. So, I can understand if we disagree, here. I know many people favor graphic novels as high forms of art. In some cases they are. But, they're not high forms of literary art.



I totally agree with you. I love comics/graphic novels, but they can't have the value of a novel.


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## FleshEater (Nov 12, 2013)

alanmt said:


> I like masculine love stories also.  Preferably with two strong masculine men in them.



FleshEater "Likes" this.


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## popsprocket (Nov 13, 2013)

alanmt said:


> I like masculine love stories also.  Preferably with two strong masculine men in them.



When I saw the title of this thread from afar, I was sure this is what it would be about.




Schrody said:


> Twilight isn't a love story. That's some paranormal/fantasy/whatever story with elements of love.



Actually... it's grouped under supernatural romance. I'd call it a love story. Romance is typically a prominent but not _central_ theme of a lot of stories, but it is definitely one of the central themes of Twilight.



ViKtoricus said:


> What if the story involves both strong-willed characters BUT it's still about a man saving a woman?
> 
> Is that still cliche?



Everything has been done and everything can be cliche when it is boiled down to its core components. If you wrote you hypothetical story and I reduced it to twenty-five-words-or-less that said "It's about a man fighting to save the woman he loves" then everyone would groan in unison. It is your ability to make the tale interesting that will determine whether or not people will enjoy it.


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## TheYellowMustang (Nov 13, 2013)

I prefer to write masculine love stories. My main characters are often men, and I like adding a dark theme or an edge to the stories. I'm not sure I agree that the hero repeatedly rescuing the heroine is a sign of a masculine love story though, that sounds more like a woman's fantasy. I try to stay away from the "damsel in distress" because I prefer to write women who can take care of themselves and fight their own battles. Not that there's anything wrong with a female character that needs rescue, I just have a habit of avoiding it myself. Maybe that's just me trying to fulfill my own fantasies, who knows.


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## Sam (Nov 13, 2013)

ViKtoricus said:


> What if the story involves both strong-willed characters BUT it's still about a man saving a woman?
> 
> Is that still cliche?



What you need to understand is that while women may like the idea of a strong-willed man being their knight in shining armour, there is also a point where you risk incurring their wrath by writing chauvinistically. For centuries, the notion that a woman needs a man to 'save her' has been perpetuated in every form of art and media imaginable. Paradoxically, it is now being derogated by the same art and media. 

I'm not saying you _shouldn't _employ this storyline in your novel; I'm just saying that you need to be careful with how you portray your female characters.


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## Schrody (Nov 13, 2013)

popsprocket said:


> Actually... it's grouped under supernatural romance. I'd call it a love story. Romance is typically a prominent but not _central_ theme of a lot of stories, but it is definitely one of the central themes of Twilight.



Twilight has a love story, but I wouldn't put it in the romance section just because it has that supernatural theme. Is 50 shades of gray a romance, or BDSM (or SM, I didn't read it) manual?


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## Kyle R (Nov 13, 2013)

Schrody said:


> Twilight has a love story, but I wouldn't put it in the romance section just because it has that supernatural theme. Is 50 shades of gray a romance, or BDSM (or SM, I didn't read it) manual?



A good way to tell if a story is a Romance or not, is to take the Romance out of it and see if the story still functions on its own. :encouragement:

In the case of Twilight, I'd say if you take Bella and Edwards love affair away, the story falls apart. Their romantic feelings for each other drive the plot and constantly raise the stakes. Every time the danger increases, instead of the characters simply walking away from each other, they say (in subtext), "We can't walk away from this. We love each other and we must fight the dangers in order to stay together." Without that love, the characters could just walk away from each other and the story plot would end. 

Bella is in danger because she loves Edward. Edward is in danger because he loves Bella. They continue to put each other in danger because they don't want to give up their love.

Thus, I consider Twilight a Romance, with Paranormal situations (and not the other way around). That's just my opinion, though! 

I haven't read Fifty Shades of Grey, so I can't really say which one that is.

--

As for the OP, I'd touch again on the concept of *stakes*. What's at stake for the main character? What do they stand to lose? What are they fighting for?

If the main character is a male who's fighting for a woman he loves, then saving the woman has become his primary motivation. It can be treated like any other story where the character has a goal.

Man wants to climb mountain, faces increasingly insurmountable odds, fights against them and finally conquers the mountain!

Replace "climb mountain" with "rescue woman" and it's the same approach. You write a story, make it hard for your character, and make him fight for her. Ideally, she'll be fighting for him, too. :encouragement:


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## Gamer_2k4 (Nov 13, 2013)

Schrody said:


> Twilight has a love story, but I wouldn't put it in the romance section just because it has that supernatural theme.



So the setting is more important than the plot when determining how a book is categorized?

I know it's tempting to say Twilight isn't a love story because of what a poor example of one it is (sort of a "I'd call you a pig, but I wouldn't want to insult the pigs" situation), but Kyle is right - if the story can't exist without the love subplot, it's a love story.  Saying, "It's paranormal, so it can't be a love story," is like saying, "It doesn't have magic, so it can't be fantasy."  The categories aren't mutually exclusive.

I could go on about how my story is about war and the human condition and whatever else, but at the end of the day, the story couldn't exist without technology that isn't present today.  Therefore, it's science fiction.  That's all.


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## Schrody (Nov 13, 2013)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> Saying, "It's paranormal, so it can't be a love story," is like saying, "It doesn't have magic, so it can't be fantasy."  The categories aren't mutually exclusive.



 I didn't say that. I said just because it has a love story doesn't mean it is a love story. I just chose poor words. But reading Kyle's post, I can see that he's right. My mistake.


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## Morkonan (Nov 13, 2013)

Sam said:


> What you need to understand is that while women may like the idea of a strong-willed man being their knight in shining armour, there is also a point where you risk incurring their wrath by writing chauvinistically. For centuries, the notion that a woman needs a man to 'save her' has been perpetuated in every form of art and media imaginable. Paradoxically, it is now being derogated by the same art and media. ....



I agree, but with some reservations. 

It's important that a female lead not be seemed to be made _powerless_. For instance, let's say Star Wars was a love story and Luke was going to rescue the Princess, after which they would fall madly in love... (Icky, now that we know...) That's clearly the flavor that was being pushed by the movie with this subplot, right? But, Leia wasn't powerless, no matter that she was a prisoner. Leia stood up to Tarkin, gave Vader some lip, hurled some insults around and it was pretty clear that, given her druthers, she would have dumped every Stormtrooper on the Death Star out an airlock. Leia was a strong female character and remained that way throughout the movie. Yet, she had to be rescued by Luke, Han, Chewie, some old dude and a couple of walking toasters... all of whom were men, doing manly things, like blowing stuff up and talking about blowing stuff up and breaking things just because they can be broken and... Well, you get the picture. (They even all met in a bar, for goodness sakes! How "manly" can ya get?")

This "worked." Leia became a household icon and not one person, that I know of, would have said she was a weak or helpless character. Yet, she was stuck in a prison cell and there was no other possible choice of rescue other than a ship full of frat guys...

In my opinion, what women don't want to see is the "helpless damsel" played to _absurdity_. They do not want to see a female character that not only has no power over her own predicament, but clearly has no ability to_ affect_ any change at all. A woman strung up in a prison cell, manacled to a wall, and under the complete domination of some sadistic cretin can still be a very strong female character, no matter how she may be ultimately rescued.

On a personal note, I have yet to meet a woman that does not appreciate a man who fits within a traditional male role. The thing is, the traditional "male role" has very little to do with what most adolescents think it does. It's not about a man overpowering a woman or becoming some sort of "head of household" that requires obedience and dictates the terms of a relationship. It's also not a man becoming an obsessive protector, denying the woman the space to grow. Sometimes, the only way to describe it to men and women alike is... being "a man." ie: If a man opens a door for a woman, he does it because he honors and loves her, not because he doesn't believe she isn't capable of fending for herself.


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## Justin Rocket (Nov 16, 2013)

No one is going to convince me that Romeo and Juliet isn't a love story.  It isn't a novel, it is a script, but it DEFINITELY is a love story.  And, as a script, how is it meaningfully different from other scripts in other media (such as anime, film, and games)?

Having said that, novels are a different beast for sure and, in my opinion, several orders of magnitude more difficult to write than scripts.  If you want to write well, learn to write good novels.  Then, writing good scripts will be something you'll pick up quickly.


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## Justin Rocket (Nov 16, 2013)

A more modern example of what Morkonen is talking about is Daenerys Targaryen.  I mean, here is a woman who was sold as property between two men.  She started off basically powerless.  Yet, she became one kick-ass leader.  In fact, is there a weak woman in Game of Thrones?  We have strong men and strong women everywhere in that series.


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## Lyra Laurant (Nov 16, 2013)

I prefer reading masculine love stories too.

Maybe, as a woman, I like the idea of watching how far the hero goes to save the woman he loves. But, still as a woman, I hate it when the girl is just a pure and pretty prize with almost no personality at all.

The hero doesn't need to be strong all the time. The heroin doesn't have to be weak all the time. 
What I like to do when I write is having both of them saving each other. Of course, there are many things you can save someone from: a dragon, a bullet, a trap, a wrong choice, loneliness... And the idea of making both of the main characters working together is also interesting.


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## Staff Deployment (Nov 17, 2013)

Morkonan said:


> ... not only has no power over her own predicament, but clearly has no ability to_ affect_ any change at all.



(That should say "effect". You can't change change, you can only bring it about)

This isn't an entirely comprehensive look at the issue. If it was Luke locked up in there, it would have eventually turned into Die Hard on a Death Star. Nobody would have come to save him, because the story is about his personal growth.


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## Tyrannohotep (Nov 17, 2013)

I myself would love to write a "masculine" love story with a male protagonist, but what I have in mind isn't necessarily a damsel-in-distress story but rather one about the guy trying to get the girl. If anything, the story appeals to me a lot more if the woman is the one with the more powerful or prestigious role in her society. For example, the woman could rule as the matriarch of a great empire while the man starts out as some vagabond mercenary. I think a lot of guys, myself included, could relate to the narrative of trying to court a girl that appears way above their league.


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## ViKtoricus (Nov 17, 2013)

Tyrannohotep said:


> I myself would love to write a "masculine" love story with a male protagonist, but what I have in mind isn't necessarily a damsel-in-distress story but rather one about the guy trying to get the girl. If anything, the story appeals to me a lot more if the woman is the one with the more powerful or prestigious role in her society. For example, the woman could rule as the matriarch of a great empire while the man starts out as some vagabond mercenary. I think a lot of guys, myself included, could relate to the narrative of trying to court a girl that appears way above their league.



Especially me, since I have a major crush on a celebrity.


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## Morkonan (Nov 17, 2013)

Staff Deployment said:


> (That should say "effect". You can't change change, you can only bring it about)
> 
> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/affect
> http://www.dailywritingtips.com/affect-vs-effect/
> ...


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## Gamer_2k4 (Nov 18, 2013)

Morkonan said:


> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/affect
> http://www.dailywritingtips.com/affect-vs-effect/



First of all, you looked up the wrong word.  Second, the tips page you linked to has the following example, which is very similar to the phrasing you used:


> A verb meaning "to accomplish": "His newfound sense of responsibility effected a positive change in her attitude toward him."



Staff Deployment is right.


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## Staff Deployment (Nov 18, 2013)

Indeed I am right! Effect as a verb means to bring about, while Affect means to make a change. You can't really make a change to change, you can only cause it to happen. http://xkcd.com/326/

"Strong Female Character" is a terrible phrase for two reasons: first, nobody ever gets it right. Leia is not a strong female character because even though she acts tough — standing up to Vader and smack-talking the stormtroopers — she is ultimately reliant on the other characters to save her, and she has very little direct influence on the success of their mission. In short: she's useless.
http://youtu.be/GurL-EflShY

Second, drop "female." You don't want strong female characters. You want strong characters, full stop. Specifying 'female' implies that she's strong _despite_ her gender.


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## ViKtoricus (Nov 18, 2013)

Staff Deployment said:


> Drop "female." You don't want strong female characters. You want strong characters, full stop. Specifying 'female' implies that she's strong _despite_ her gender.



LOL! Very true.


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## Justin Rocket (Nov 19, 2013)

Leia is very much a strong female character.  For example, she saves the Death Star plans in the beginning.  She, also, saves the males in the prison section by diving into the garbage chute.  
As for why strong female characters are needed, females and males are different.  Generally speaking, females think holistically (or time-based/evolutionarily) and intuitively (ie. how parts relate to one another in a complex manner) while males think spatially and logically.  Admittedly, you can write a male character into a female actor (ex. Ripley in aliens) and you can write a female character into a male actor (ex. Jack Ryan in the Hunt for Red October).


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## SarahStrange (Nov 19, 2013)

> ...females and males are different....females think holistically... and intuitively... while males think spatially and logically.



And this children, is an example of the gender stereotypes that permeate our society. See kids, some people buy into ideology whole heartedly. Sometimes, they even _endorse_ it to others.*small child-like gasps* 

Amazing, I know! Let's face it kids: stereotypes are just not cool. You don't want to be uncool, do you? Of course not! So let's all try not to make broad generalizations that tell men and women what they are _supposed_ to be. We're all far to complex for that. And what do you do when you hear someone making a gender stereotype? *Yell 'sheep' and run!* That's right kids. An enlightened adult will hear you and get you away from that stereotype monster as fast as possible. *school bell goes off* Looks like it's recess time. Remember, the girls are perfectly able to play on the jungle jim while the boys play dress up with the dolls. Have fun kids!


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## Gamer_2k4 (Nov 19, 2013)

SarahStrange said:


> And this children, is an example of the gender stereotypes that permeate our society. See kids, some people buy into ideology whole heartedly. Sometimes, they even _endorse_ it to others.*small child-like gasps*
> 
> Amazing, I know! Let's face it kids: stereotypes are just not cool. You don't want to be uncool, do you? Of course not! So let's all try not to make broad generalizations that tell men and women what they are _supposed_ to be. We're all far to complex for that. And what do you do when you hear someone making a gender stereotype? *Yell 'sheep' and run!* That's right kids. An enlightened adult will hear you and get you away from that stereotype monster as fast as possible. *school bell goes off* Looks like it's recess time. Remember, the girls are perfectly able to play on the jungle gym while the boys play dress up with the dolls. Have fun kids!



Stereotypes exist for a reason, regardless of whether or not you want to recognize that.  After all, there's a reason men hold the record in nearly every single athletic activity (running, weightlifting, jumping, swimming, you name it).  The simple fact is that men and women ARE different; I gave an example of their physical differences, but they have mental, emotional, and social differences as well.  There's a reason a girl is a lot more comfortable in a group of guys than a guy is in a group of girls.

Why do couples tend to have so much conflict if there aren't fundamental differences between men and women (that often neither is willing to recognize or account for)?


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## SarahStrange (Nov 19, 2013)

Some cringe worthy comments in that post. Good grief. Firstly, let's look at the definition of steryotype, shall we? 



> to believe unfairly that all people or things with a particular characteristic are the same.



mhmmm. Key word 'unfairly'. And darling, it isn't that they are inherently different. They aren't. The ideology of our society puts the notion that we are different upon us. Gender is a social construct. Look it up. In this way, people who are too blind to see that they are subjects in an ideology believe these stereotypes whole heartedly. It's a matter of being blind... or not.



> Stereotypes exist for a reason...



Let's take a minute to _actually_ _think_ about what you just said. The stereotypes that exist for women exist because of the _patriarchy_ we all live under. The idea that women should be feminine, poised, and classy and that they are naturally more emotions (all stereotypes btw) serves to keep women on the second tier of society, under men. On average women are payed less than men. If a woman and a man have the same resume for a job, statistically the man will be chosen above the woman. Women are blamed for being raped. They are also shamed for being sexual creatures. Look at your local news programming to find evidence of all of these things.

A lot of stereotypes for women originated when we were only allowed to occupy the private sphere rather than the public. You wouldn't want your wife or daughter to be outside with a will of her own. It also comes from the idea that women are goods to be handed over from father to husband, so much so that they could be exchanged for a dowry. Women where meant to be docile creatures that were easily controlled by their husbands (i.e. poised, feminine and classy) and fathers. This idea has continued to persist all the way to our current day and age. 

Let's take stereotypes of african americans for example. The idea that they are less original, more carnal, and not hard workers persists in stereotypes today. These ideas originated by those people who owned slaves (whites). Even people who didn't own slaves thought this. These stereotypes served to keep people believing that slavery was a good and natural thing. If they were less intelligent that us, it's right to keep them under our control. Right? Right?! From these stereotypes, more evolved such as the idea that a black male is a dangerous figure. This is why the overwhelming amount of people will lock their car doors when they see a black male who they think looks dangerous (all of them) walk towards them. 

Here's a plain as day example for you if you're having trouble understanding.

http://youtu.be/ge7i60GuNRg
*
So yes, you're right. Stereotypes have reasons for originating. The overwhelming (revolting) reason:  to keep a particular sect of people down and out of power by perpetuating that they are somehow lesser than those in power.* 

Here's an idea. Find three stereotypes that I can't refute with _logic _and _reason_ and you'll win this discussion. Sound good?


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## Gamer_2k4 (Nov 19, 2013)

Answering via PM so as to not derail the thread further.


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## Apple Ice (Nov 19, 2013)

SarahStrange said:


> Some cringe worthy comments in that post. Good grief. Firstly, let's look at the definition of steryotype, shall we?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Blimey, I haven't cringed that much from a single post in a long time. 

To the matter at hand. I think you could still write a classic, "save helpless woman" and it would be successful. The key is to trick the audience in to thinking the woman is strong, when in fact she's useless, just as Leila in Star Wars. It's the same with Shrek, they make the Princess independently minded and strong in the sense she doesn't mind shouting but she needs Shrek all the time to save her and the land, etc. I think people still like all that stuff but you just have to be more canny in the way you present as to not anger the liberals or women who shout "sexist!" at the site of a woman in danger in an animated film for children.  

Don't I sound like an uber conservative. Ah well, I think it's true, anyway.


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## SarahStrange (Nov 19, 2013)

> "save helpless woman"



And yet another stereotype. I'm glad to be surrounded by so many original and enlightened individuals. 

My, my, aren't the sheeples bleating today.


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## The Tourist (Nov 19, 2013)

I think we're looking at this all wrong.

The OP seems to like stories about macho types of guys with a decided homoerotic slant.  Maybe that's the hook.  Perhaps this romance novel would be better served ala' Brokeback Mountain.

This would solve a host of problems.  One, the OP is familiar with scenes and locales where guys like this hang out.  Two, the issue of feminine dialog would no longer be a concern.  Three, this genre seems to be under-represented, making such a story truly groundbreaking.


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## Justin Rocket (Nov 19, 2013)

SarahStrange said:


> stereotypes are just not cool.



Some times what you dislike as a stereotype happens to be true.  When a choice has to be made between truth and being cool, I'll side with truth every time.  Male and female bodies (including brains) are different (ex. men have penises while women don't, men have more testosterone while women have more estrogen (and we all know that our hormones influence how we think), etc.)

This is so obvious as to not even be worth debating.

And, further, fiction is fiction. In fiction, we use archetypes.



The Tourist said:


> The OP seems to like stories about macho types of guys with a decided homoerotic slant.



homoerotic??  I'm not seeing that.  Rather, I suspect a more accurate statement might be that he's looking for a Campbellian male heroic journey in which the elixir or treasure is a woman.


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## The Tourist (Nov 19, 2013)

Justin Rocket said:


> I'm not seeing that.  Rather, I suspect a more accurate statement might be that he's looking for a Campbellian male heroic journey in which the elixir or treasure is a woman.



Well, it's as valid as the "quest" idea.  The issue is that most heroes are going after something, in this case it might just be the guy with whom they take the journey.

Lots of stories use a prop as the prize.  "From Russia With Love" used a universal translator called The Lektor Machine.  The Maltese Falcon used, well, a statue of a falcon.

But why can't it be a person?  In a "Romancing The Stone" sequel called 'The Jewel of the Nile,' the jewel was actually a holyman.  Since the OP likes super macho guys, what's better than another super macho guy as the ultimate prize?


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## Justin Rocket (Nov 19, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Well, it's as valid as the "quest" idea.



Your story is valid and can make for an interesting story, but its not the kind of love relationship the OP is interested in (as we can tell from reading his first post).


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## Newman (Nov 19, 2013)

Some films out right now that have a damsel in distress situation:

Thor: The Dark World
The Counselor
12 Years a Slave
Gravity

...it's not happening because the writer is following some cliche, it's happening because of story reasons.


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## The Tourist (Nov 19, 2013)

Justin Rocket said:


> not the kind of love relationship the OP is interested in (as we can tell from reading his first post)



One of the reasons I come here is to improve my book.  We enter posts, the members add or suggest things, and many digest the suggestions.  In fact, isn't that the benefit of a critique?

Once given a better idea, how do we know that it won't spark creativity in the OP to tell a better story?


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## ViKtoricus (Nov 19, 2013)

SarahStrange said:


> And this children, is an example of the gender stereotypes that permeate our society. See kids, some people buy into ideology whole heartedly. Sometimes, they even _endorse_ it to others.*small child-like gasps*
> 
> Amazing, I know! Let's face it kids: stereotypes are just not cool. You don't want to be uncool, do you? Of course not! So let's all try not to make broad generalizations that tell men and women what they are _supposed_ to be. We're all far to complex for that. And what do you do when you hear someone making a gender stereotype? *Yell 'sheep' and run!* That's right kids. An enlightened adult will hear you and get you away from that stereotype monster as fast as possible. *school bell goes off* Looks like it's recess time. Remember, the girls are perfectly able to play on the jungle jim while the boys play dress up with the dolls. Have fun kids!



I think some stereotypes are justifiable. There are differences between men and women. Even if you put cultural norms aside, men and women will always tend to have different personalities. This doesn't mean all women are like this or all men are like that, but in most cases, that is the case.


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## ViKtoricus (Nov 19, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Since the OP likes super macho guys, what's better than another super macho guy as the ultimate prize?



A woman.


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## SarahStrange (Nov 19, 2013)

> I think some stereotypes are justifiable.



Name three.



> A woman.



Women are not prizes. They are human beings. If you 'win' a _real_ woman she'll probably kick you all up and down the street, because a 'real woman' knows her worth. She knows that no matter what this patriarchy tells her, she belongs to no one but herself.


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## Justin Rocket (Nov 19, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> One of the reasons I come here is to improve my book.  We enter posts, the members add or suggest things, and many digest the suggestions.  In fact, isn't that the benefit of a critique?
> 
> Once given a better idea, how do we know that it won't spark creativity in the OP to tell a better story?



Your idea for a story is valid, but whether it is _better_ wrt *a story the OP wants to write* isn't for you to decide.
Staying on topic is important in a thread.  What the OP is seeking is clear.


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## Justin Rocket (Nov 19, 2013)

SarahStrange said:


> Name three.



1.)  Men have testes
2.) Men's testes create testosterone
3.) Testosterone influences behavior



> Women are not prizes. If you 'win' a real 'woman' she'll probably kick you all up and down the street.


Women can be prizes.  Men can be prizes.  Women can make men have to compete for them and vice versa.


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## popsprocket (Nov 19, 2013)

Back on topic. Arguments about gender stereotypes end right now.


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## SarahStrange (Nov 19, 2013)

.


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## FleshEater (Nov 19, 2013)

Edit


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## The Tourist (Nov 19, 2013)

Justin Rocket said:


> Staying on topic is important in a thread.  What the OP is seeking is clear.



Correct, but the OP hasn't responded yet, nor is the final draft completed.

Based on a singular throw-away comment my brother made, I added a character.  Once the plot began to evolve this new character became as equal in importance as the lead.


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