# How the oldest advice can still lead us to happiness



## Peter Dyr (Mar 28, 2013)

How the oldest advice can still help guide us to happiness.

Across the span of recorded history, at the birth of writing and civilization, there was the Epic of Gilgamesh. This seminal tale of gods, kings, battles, friendship, loss, the fear of death, the search for immortality and advice on how one should live life, represents the first great work of literature.

While the origin of the Epic of Gilgamesh is lost to the sands of time, it is probable that this story had been verbally transmitted for a very long time before the invention of writing, but we have no way of knowing when, where or why the story actually originated or even how many original contributors there were.  What we do know is that the story encompassed a large number of concepts, ideas and philosophies, and was considered important enough that it was told from generation to generation for hundreds of years, before being immortalized in clay around four thousand years ago.  

Unfortunately, the original "Old Babylonian" version of the Epic of Gilgamesh is incomplete, making it difficult for us to piece together the exact story our ancient ancestors considered so important.  However, several critical fragments of the original Epic have been recovered and differ in significant ways from later more complete versions.  One of the most fascinating of these original fragments is the Sippar tablet which was discovered near the city of Sippar, on the Euphrates river, upstream of the Babylonian region in present day Iraq. The Sippar tablet contains the earliest recorded advice, given by a beautiful young girl called Siduri, on how we should live our lives. Interestingly, in a later version of the Epic of Gilgamesh (referred to as the “Akkadian” version) Siduri’s advice was removed from the Epic and much of her original role was given to Utnapishtim, an immortal wise old man. One theory for the diminishment of Siduri’s role is that Siduri being young, female and working class (a wine maker), and Utnapishtim being old, male and high class (an immortal wise man) may have contributed, and may suggest possible differences between Sumerian and Akkadian culture. Specifically, this change may highlight a degree of ageism, sexism and/or classism in Akkadian culture, and the removal of Siduri's advice could represent the first recorded case of censorship. 

Siduri's words come to us from the beginning of recorded history, but what exactly was her message?  How exactly we deconstruct the brief text on the Sippar tablet is open to individual interpretation, and a major caveat of the following section is that it represents my analysis of her words, and I fully respect that others may reach different conclusions.

Siduri's ancient advice, as recorded on the Sippar tablet:

"Whither are you wandering? 
Life, which you look for, 
you will never find. 
For when the gods created man, 
they let death be his share, 
and life withheld in their own hands. 
Fill your belly, 
day and night make merry, 
let days be full of joy, 
dance and make music day and night. 
And wear fresh clothes, 
and wash your head and bathe. 
Look at the child that is holding your hand, 
and let your wife delight in your embrace. 
These things alone are the concern of men." 
- The Epic Of Gilgamesh, The Teachings Of Siduri And How Siduri's Ancient Advice Can Help Guide Us To A Happier Life, Third Edition, by Peter Dyr - The Epic Of Gilgamesh, The Teachings Of Siduri And How Siduri's Ancient Advice Can Help Guide Us To A Happier Life, Third Edition: Peter Dyr: Amazon.com: Kindle Store

In my perspective, the three core concepts of Siduri's philosophy are: 1) understanding, 2) joy and 3) family.

1. Understanding. Siduri tries to understand Gilgamesh, his motivations, his pain at the loss of his brother and his dream for immortality, and she advises him to understand that we must all eventually die and must accept our mortality. Siduri teaches us first to try to understand others in our lives, what their motivations are and can we see things from their perspective. If we wish to follow Siduri’s ancient teachings, we should make every effort to live with understanding in our lives, and make sure that our colleagues, friends and family feel that we appreciate their point of view.

Dale Carnegie elegantly developed this concept of understanding in his extremely popular book "How to win friends and influence people" and one of his key suggestions was that we should look to understand and sincerely appreciate other people and their perspectives.  Carnegie advocated sincere appreciation but was extremely disapproving of flattery, which is at its core insincere.  If we can find nothing to sincerely appreciate then perhaps we are not looking hard enough!  Siduri and Carnegie teach that we should make every effort to find common ground that will genuinely interest us and let us understand the world through the eyes of our friends, colleagues and family. The Sidurian concept of understanding is one of the most important abilities we can possess and represents a skill that, if regularly practiced, should dramatically improve our interactions with others and help guide us towards a happier life. 

2) Joy. Siduri tells Gilgamesh to "Fill your belly. Day and night make merry, let days be full of joy, dance and make music day and night". We should consider heeding Siduri's advice and living lives full of music, dancing, good food, good wine and general merriment. However, while seeking a life full of joy, Siduri also advises us to keep our daily responsibilities in mind and "wear fresh clothes, and wash your head and bathe". It is unclear exactly how far we can interpret Siduri’s words on minding to our daily responsibilities, but it may be prudent for us to include attending to our mental, physical and financial well-being as a foundation to build future joy on. We must be healthy if we are to dance day and night, and good food and wine require a stable source of income! Nevertheless, we can, while attending to our daily responsibilities, consider making every effort to introduce joy into our lives, and do what makes us happy.

Joy, specifically, the concept that we should look to promote joy in our lives, was developed into its most extreme form by the Hedonistic philosopher Aristippus of Cyrene (one of the students of Socrates) who held that the sensation of pleasure was the highest good.  Some have claimed that Siduri promoted Hedonism and her advice to Gilgamesh was the first recorded advocacy of Hedonism and the general Carpe Diem (seize the day) concept.  While Siduri was the first recorded to advocate the Carpe Diem concept, she did not support unbridled Hedonism and immediately following her instructions to seek joy and merriment, she then advised Gilgamesh to also tend to more mundane responsibilities.  Therefore, at most, Siduri promoted "Responsible Hedonism" and should we wish to follow Siduri's advice we should bear this distinction in mind. Indeed, the Sidurian concept of joy, or "Responsible Hedonism", can help guide us towards a happier life as long as we do not fall into the trap of irresponsibility!

3) Family. Siduri ends her advice to Gilgamesh with "Look at the child that is holding your hand and let your wife delight in your embrace. These things alone are the concern of men". In this, Siduri ends on a very strong pro-family message, the general implication for us being that we should get married, have a family and make sure our children and significant others are happy. Specifically, that we should pay attention to our children and ensure our significant others are delighted in our embrace. We can interpret "embrace" in both its platonic and sexual forms, although the latter interpretation of Siduri's teachings would appear to be the one most often associated with delight and making a new family.  It is interesting to note that while Gilgamesh sought physical immortality, Siduri suggested he abandon his quest and instead focus on family.  Richard Dawkins in "The Selfish Gene" suggests that through our children we pass on the essence of who we are.  These genes, or as Dawkins called them "immortal coils", give us a form of genetic immortality through our children and our children's children.  This drive to procreate is the core purpose of life, not just for humans, but for all life on this planet, and only by achieving our fundamental biological purpose to procreate can we achieve the deepest happiness and contentment with our lives.

On a personal note, the Sidurian concepts of understanding, joy and family have dramatically improved my life.  Specifically, I have found the Sidurian concept of understanding to be one that has improved my marriage and helped me in my work.  Trying to understand things from my wife's point of view has made her significantly happier and she has reciprocated, making me happier.  At work, I was tasked to give a presentation to a group of highly skeptical colleagues, with little chance of a successful outcome.  I discarded my original presentation and re-created one from scratch, trying to find and mention areas of collaborative interest for each person, by name, in the group.  It took a lot of time, thought and effort, but the change was incredible, skeptics became supporters and the proposal was approved.  

I have found the Sidurian concept of joy to be a pleasure to introduce.  I purchased and play singing and dancing video games with my wife and daughter, dance with them and I must admit to enjoying Siduri's support for feasting and drinking wine! I have also kept my responsibilities in mind, working hard, socializing with friends and making sure I stay healthy. 

The desire for a family is one that I have agreed with for many years, and while on a superficial level sleep deprivation and stress can be regular annoyances, there is no deeper source of happiness in my life than my family.  For me at least, Siduri's teachings have worked and continue to work, and although you inhabit a different world, and your interpretations of her words may differ, I suspect her ancient advice will nevertheless work for you too.

While Siduri's words are over 4,000 years old we can still today take her philosophies to heart and try to live with more understanding, joy and appreciation of family in our lives.  Although ancient, good advice is eternal, and Siduri’s teachings can help guide us to happier lives today.

- Peter Dyr 
Email: Professor.Peter.Dyr@gmail.com


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## JosephB (Mar 28, 2013)

Do you have any shorter advice – you know, things like "a penny saved is a penny earned?”


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## Robert_S (Mar 28, 2013)

Does Siduri touch upon ambition and legacy at all?


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## Peter Dyr (Mar 28, 2013)

JosephB said:


> Do you have any shorter advice – you know, things like "a penny saved is a penny earned?”



Well, yes, there is lots of valuable shorter advice, indeed I own several books/lists of famous quotations that in many instances represent short and useful advice.  Unfortunately none of these shorter quotes can claim to be the oldest recorded advice, so for this article we are stuck with Siduri's advice as the oldest recorded surviving advice on how we should live our lives.

Best,
Peter


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## Peter Dyr (Mar 28, 2013)

Robert_S said:


> Does Siduri touch upon ambition and legacy at all?



Ambition and legacy are large concepts within the Epic of Gilgamesh, with Gilgamesh seeking both physical immortality and immortality in name, however, Siduri's advice is that life should be lived today, and that your children and your children's children are the legacy you leave in this world, at least, this is my interpretation of her words.

Best,
Peter


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## moderan (Mar 28, 2013)

Enkidu needs a haircut.


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## Peter Dyr (Mar 28, 2013)

moderan said:


> Enkidu needs a haircut.



Indeed, but his horns keep getting in the way :joyous:


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## Robert_S (Mar 28, 2013)

Peter Dyr said:


> Ambition and legacy are large concepts within the Epic of Gilgamesh, with Gilgamesh seeking both physical immortality and immortality in name, however Siduri advice is that life should be lived today, and that your children and your children's children are the legacy you leave in this world, at least, this is my interpretation of her words.



Well, I chose not to add to the world's ills, so I don't have children (I'm a child of abusive parents and don't want to pass that on) and instead try to leave something else. I guess I'm damned in Siduri's eyes.


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## Peter Dyr (Mar 28, 2013)

Robert_S said:


> Well, I chose not to add to the world's ills, so I don't have children (I'm a child of abusive parents and don't want to pass that on) and instead try to leave something else. I guess I'm damned in Siduri's eyes.



Hi Robert, I am very sorry to hear that. While I am a big believer in family and admit that in many ways I seek justification for many of my beliefs in Siduri's words, I wonder how my position may well be different if I had endured what you have.  Siduri's advice fascinates me and I try to live it to this day, but I also understand that her advice is not for everyone, and I respect each of us must choose our own path.  No-one is damned who does what they believe to be right in their heart.

All the best,
Peter


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## Rosier (Mar 29, 2013)

In the end, it is the serpent who gets immortal life instead of man. Perhaps like Gilgamesh, I should just take life as it is.


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## Peter Dyr (Mar 29, 2013)

Rosier said:


> In the end, it is the serpent who gets immortal life instead of man. Perhaps like Gilgamesh, I should just take life as it is.



A fellow aficionado of Sumerian literature! I'm sure your conclusions would make Siduri proud


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## Rosier (Mar 29, 2013)

Hopefully Siduri would reconsider my status as a puny mortal and elevate me to godhood through genetic engineering! :grin:


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## Peter Dyr (Mar 29, 2013)

Rosier said:


> Hopefully Siduri would reconsider my status as a puny mortal and elevate me to godhood through genetic engineering! :grin:



Ha! I hope she would 


Interestingly enough, my own "early life crisis" revolved around the hope that genetic engineering and personalized stem cell-based regenerative medicine would cure our mortal curse. Like Gilgamesh I dreamed of physical immortality, and hoped my research in these areas would also bring me immortality in name. A combination of factors which included Siduri's ancient advice, but also included my advancing age, my new family and the realization that genetic engineering and stem cells may somewhat prolong life in the near future, but the technology is way too primitive to escape the eventual hands of death, combined with the realization that Nobel Prizes are incredibly hard to get and even they do not really guarantee "immortality in name", slowly shifted me to a more "Carpe diem" perspective.


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## Rosier (Mar 29, 2013)

Yeah. Carpe diem is the way to go in this day and age. We should at least beat the life expectancy of our respective areas. =D>


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## PiP (Mar 30, 2013)

Peter Dyr said:


> While Siduri's words are over 4,000 years old we can still today take her philosophies to heart and try to live with more understanding, joy and appreciation of family in our lives.  Although ancient, good advice is eternal, and Siduri’s teachings can help guide us to happier lives today.
> 
> - Peter Dyr
> Email: Professor.Peter.Dyr@gmail.com



Thought provoking article Peter. Yes, I can imagine why you find the Sidurian concept of joy a pleasure to introduce. But wise words are so often lost on those who could most benefit. Their minds are closed as they view the world not in colour, but shades of grey as they wallow in negative thoughts. Did Siduri mean we are our own worst enemy, not the world that surrounds us? I am a great believer that once you discover inner peace you will find happiness. 

I particulary like these words from Siduri's ancient advice
_Whither are you wandering? 
Life, which you look for, 
_
and 

_For when the gods created man, 
they let death be his share, 
and life withheld in their own hands.
you will never find. 

PS _Out of interest who do you consider to be your target market for this article?


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## Peter Dyr (Mar 30, 2013)

Very well put, I think you hit the nail on the head! In my opinion the concept that "we are own worst enemy", at least in-so-far as our current and future happiness is concerned, was exactly the idea Siduri was trying to convey.  I also really like your belief regarding achieving happiness through inner peace. For my own edification, I would very much appreciate it if you would be so kind as to advise me which are the most important priorities/steps that someone could take to (hopefully) eventually achieve inner peace? I love and live Siduri's advice, but I also try to keep an open mind as to other complementary colorful paths to happiness 

PS. I guess the target audience is anyone open to the idea that ancient advice may still hold positive value in how we live our lives today.


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## moderan (Mar 30, 2013)

Too often such advice is taken wrongly or misinterpreted or reinterpreted by those who would put themselves in positions of power by influencing others. I don't disagree that the suggestion has value, I would just be wary of the legions of middlemen and other anglewanglers.


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## PiP (Mar 30, 2013)

Peter Dyr said:


> Very well put, I think you hit the nail on the head! In my opinion the concept that "we are own worst enemy", at least in-so-far as our current and future happiness is concerned, was exactly the idea Siduri was trying to convey.  I also really like your belief regarding achieving happiness through inner peace. For my own edification, I would very much appreciate it if you would be so kind as to advise me which are the most important priorities/steps that someone could take to (hopefully) eventually achieve inner peace? I love and live Siduri's advice, but I also try to keep an open mind as to other complementary colorful paths to happiness
> 
> PS. I guess the target audience is anyone open to the idea that ancient advice may still hold positive value in how we live our lives today.



Olá Peter,

I apologise, we seem to have wandered a little off topic re. critique on your article and on to the meaning of life. 

To be honest, I believe we must all paddle our own canoe in life and be responsible for our actions. We can ask advice and listen to the opinions of others, but at the end of the day we process information and adjust our life's rudder accordingly, or not. Hence if someone reads your article and they take away just one point or nods their head in agreement it has been worthwhile. So, we read and reflect. 

We all have our own life's experience on which to draw, and whether we learn from them, really depends on our willingness to change and how we embrace new ideas.



Peter Dyr said:


> "if you would be so kind as to advise me which are the most important  priorities/steps that someone could take to (hopefully) eventually  achieve inner peace?"



Sorry Peter I don't have a magic formula to achieve 'inner peace', it is work in progress; continually evolving and everyone is different 

My beliefs in striving for inner peace are simple. I have not tried to explain this before, so I hope my philosophy and random thoughts make sense 

Inner peace for me is basically accepting you must be responsible for your own thoughts and actions. For example: I don't believe in praying to God to provide, as I believe God only helps those who help themselves. But I do believe in God (many will disagree, but that is OK) Basically, if I want something I figure out how to get it, and if it's not achievable I accept it, compromise and move on. Refer to the first para of the Serenity Prayer [SIZE=-1]_byReinhold                Niebuhr_[/SIZE]

God grant me the            serenity 
          to accept the things I cannot change; 
          courage to change the things I can;
          and wisdom to know the difference. 

..One of my acquaintances is a reborn again Christian and we disagree as to the _how_ we arrive at achieving inner peace, but we do agree our goal is still the same, so we have found common ground  Be mindful of how to agree to disagree. If you can find common ground fine, if not don't get all _bent out of shape_ and bear a grudge - life's far to short. And as they say '_there are as many opinions as there are people'._

I have also learned - when you have everything it is easy to value nothing, and when you have nothing you value everything. Accept what you have and be grateful.

Appreciate and enjoy the simple things of life. (Take a moment to pause and reflect. Resist the temptation to be materialistic especially to impress others)

I strive to be respectful and mindful of others opinions (despite provocation). (Put brain into gear before operating mouth.)

 While it is important to have sympathy and show empathy towards others who are experiencing emotional stress do not be tempted to join them in the _well _of their despair and negativity. It is counterproductive for them and you. Some people do not want to be helped and just enjoy moaning for the sake of moaning. I call these sappers and try and avoid this type of person because they will never be satisfied with life no matter what they do and sap my positive energy.(My solar panels only run for so long)

Focus on your strengths and not on your weaknesses. But having recognised your weaknessess strive to improve. (This especially applies to writing.) 

Manage your ego - be humble (I joined the forum to improve so I accept critisism graciously and I'm not too proud to ask for help. I'm not sure if this falls under managing pride or ego, but be wary of both)

When things get tough I find peace and solitude in the beauty of nature. Often, I retreat to my special place by the ocean, look out to sea and feel the stresses of life ebb away as a feeling of peace washes over me. You need a place to retreat where you feel at peace.

Finally, a quote from the The Serenity Prayer. Even if you are not religious the words hold a certain truth. I don't agree with all of the prayer because I still subscribe to "God only helps those who help themselves"

_God grant me the            serenity 
          to accept the things I cannot change; 
          courage to change the things I can;
          and wisdom to know the difference. _
_
Living one day            at a time; 

Enjoying one moment at a time; 

_
[SIZE=-1]_--Reinhold                Niebuhr_[/SIZE]

To me discovering inner peace is not sitting by the ocean in the lotus position, but living life one day at a day and making the most of it. The rules are simple so just live 

Hope this is of some help Peter.

Carole
PS learn to laugh at yourself and smile often


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## Peter Dyr (Mar 30, 2013)

moderan said:


> Too often such advice is taken wrongly or misinterpreted or reinterpreted by those who would put themselves in positions of power by influencing others. I don't disagree that the suggestion has value, I would just be wary of the legions of middlemen and other anglewanglers.


Hi Moderan, these are valid concerns which I share. I have always been wary when people try to sell me anything, but now with this article and my eBook, I find myself on the other side of the divide trying to promote/sell a life philosophy that I have personally found great value in.  I find myself in the uncomfortable company of the "legions of middlemen and other anglewanglers" you mentioned. Even worse, I find myself enjoying both the somewhat privileged position I have found myself in for trying to promote Siduri's beautiful advice, as well as the fascinating discussions on life, happiness and inner peace that have arisen because of this work.  My only antidote to these concerns is to try to be as honest as possible, with myself and with the people reading the article/book, and to explicitly state that these are my personal interpretations of Siduri's words and that I understand and respect that others may find different meaning in her advice; perhaps I should further clarify/expand that section of the article? My main goal is increased awareness of Siduri's advice, so even if the reader disagrees with my interpretation completely, they will still have had the chance to read and think about Siduri's original advice on the Sippar tablet and I will have achieved my hope for this article.

Best,
Peter


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## moderan (Mar 30, 2013)

And that's just fine. I myself remain unmoved-my inner peace is not gained by any consideration of gods and their works and advice;I do not believe in such. There is no direct incontrovertible evidence for their existence. There is certainly sufficient evidence as to the venality of mankind.
Good luck with your quest to bring this message to those who would believe or heed it. I am not of your target audience, that's all.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 30, 2013)

> Across the span of recorded history, at the birth of writing and civilization, there was the Epic of Gilgamesh. This seminal tale of gods, kings, battles, friendship, loss, the fear of death, the search for immortality and advice on how one should live life, represents our first complete work of literature


.I was of the impression that The Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor predated it





> The Sidurian concept of understanding, and the expanded concept of sincere appreciation, as advocated by Carnegie, is


This sat uneasily, I understand that the carnegie concept is being treated as an extension of the Sidurian one and therefore they are one, but the ',and' between them does not give that impression and makes the 'is' at the end of my quote appear ungrammatical.



> has made her significantly happier and she has reciprocated in turn


Tautology, reciprocating is in turn.

Writing nits aside, thanks for not falling into the so common error of "It is ancient therefore it must be good". 
I am not sure how literally I would take the advice, singing and dancing could be seen as representative of things which bring simple pleasure, and 'Looking at the child who is holding your hand' a recognition that the culture of man still has some way to go, A child requires education to bring them up to speed, but they also represent the future development of the culture, not necessarily of the personal genetic form. This is the huge plus culture has over Darwinian evolution, it is not entirely random, new bits can be deliberately added and passed on to the next generation by other than physical means.

I find her concepts of understanding, happiness, and inheritance reminiscent of later trilogies, the Christian; faith, hope and charity; or the Bhuddist; give, sympathise, control.

A thought provoking piece, thanks for posting.


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## Peter Dyr (Mar 30, 2013)

moderan said:


> And that's just fine. I myself remain unmoved-my inner peace is not gained by any consideration of gods and their works and advice;I do not believe in such. There is no direct incontrovertible evidence for their existence. There is certainly sufficient evidence as to the venality of mankind.
> Good luck with your quest to bring this message to those who would believe or heed it. I am not of your target audience, that's all.



Thank you and I understand. Just to clarify, while Siduri was considered a goddess by the ancient Babylonians, I do not consider her one.  My fascination is with her advice as recorded on the Sippar tablet, not because of any putative deistic status, but because her words moved me.  They certainly won't move everybody, in fact they may not move anybody else, but I only wish to write about what I am passionate about and I will always make every effort to learn from my mistakes. I agree that there is much evidence as to the venality of mankind, but let's not forget that as a species we also possess remarkable capacity for honesty, devotion and a plethora of other positive attributes.
Best wishes,
Peter


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## moderan (Mar 30, 2013)

Indeed. You have every right to do so and to believe as you wish. Do not let my misanthropy deter you.


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## Kevin (Mar 30, 2013)

moderan said:


> Indeed. You have every right to do so and to believe as you wish. Do not let my misanthropy deter you.


 'Misanthropy'? Heheh. Our thoughts drape you; wrap you, like many a wet blanket. Just try to escape...


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## Peter Dyr (Mar 31, 2013)

Hi Carole, thank you so much for elaborating on your philosophy, you did a great job and I think there is a significant overlap between our beliefs.



pigletinportugal said:


> To be honest, I believe we must all paddle our own canoe in life and be responsible for our actions. We can ask advice and listen to the opinions of others, but at the end of the day we process information and adjust our life's rudder accordingly, or not. Hence if someone reads your article and they take away just one point or nods their head in agreement it has been worthwhile. So, we read and reflect.


I completely agree with you.  I have found value in Siduri's advice and want to offer the opportunity for others to also consider her words, hence the article and the book.  I am especially interested to find out if others find her advice useful as I have.  So, I offer my opinions and interpretations, and as you said, if they take anything of value from the article, then it has indeed been worthwhile.



pigletinportugal said:


> Inner peace for me is basically accepting you must be responsible for your own thoughts and actions. For example: I don't believe in praying to God to provide, as I believe God only helps those who help themselves. But I do believe in God (many will disagree, but that is OK) Basically, if I want something I figure out how to get it, and if it's not achievable I accept it, compromise and move on. Refer to the first para of the Serenity Prayer by Reinhold Niebuhr
> 
> God grant me the serenity
> to accept the things I cannot change;
> ...


Yes, we are definitely on the same wavelength. Figuring out what you want and then seizing the opportunities to realize your desires is the real meaning behind Horace's famous and often misinterpreted "carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero" (seize the day, trust as little as possible in the future).  Siduri was the first recorded advocate of the underlying "carpe diem" concept, when she told Gilgamesh to stop worrying about his unavoidable future death and to enjoy the present.  I also love your Reinhold Niebuhr quote.  I came across it quite recently in Dale Carnegie's book "How to stop worrying and start living" and was so impressed that I made a note of telling my wife about it.  She rolled her eyes and told me she had heard it many years earlier. Nevertheless, good advice remains just as useful now as when it was first written. This is how I feel about Siduri, Niebuhr or any other good advice, regardless of when they were written or how popular they are.  The fact that Siduri's advice is so old is far less interesting to me that what she actually said.

Thank you for taking the time to write out and post your beliefs, I very much appreciate it and I found myself nodding my head often 

Best wishes,
Peter


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## PiP (Mar 31, 2013)

Peter Dyr said:


> Hi Carole, thank you so much for elaborating on your philosophy, you did a great job and I think there is a significant overlap between our beliefs.
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to write out and post your beliefs, I very much appreciate it and I found myself nodding my head often
> 
> ...



My pleasure  It was an interesting exercise. However, reading it back I sound a bit prissy and Piglet perfect. Trust me, I'm far from it. I have horns, sharp claws and a loud growl LOL as well. Inner peace is always work in progress. How we learn to deal with daily life and the challenges it presents is perhaps the true key to discovery. I should also write my beliefs down on a stone as a gentle reminder for when I'm having a bad day. Because the one thing I have learned it is far easier to be at peace with the world than fight against it.

Good luck with your article Peter.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 31, 2013)

> I am not sure how literally I would take the advice


I have been thinking about why I said this, there is, as you say, an element of the oral tradition about it. I have done a bit of storytelling, there is something about traditional storytelling which is akin to the theraputic metaphore in that the aim is partially to be all things to all people.


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## Peter Dyr (Mar 31, 2013)

Hi Olly, thank you so much for helping me rid the article of those pesky nits. 



Olly Buckle said:


> I was of the impression that The Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor predated [The Epic of Gilgamesh]


Technically the Epic of Gilgamesh is the oldest long work of literature that has survived (The Humanities Program: The Epic of Gilgamesh), several short stories and tales preceded it, but are not typically placed by scholars in the same literary category.  There may also have been equal length or longer works of literature, but have been lost over time, or at least not discovered to date.  I am not a big fan of using the qualifier "long", but perhaps I could compromise with a more impressive qualifier like "great", would this potentially work?  You have much more expertise in this area and I value your input.



Olly Buckle said:


> I am not sure how literally I would take the advice, singing and dancing could be seen as representative of things which bring simple pleasure


Yes, I agree that singing, dancing, good food, good wine, good company etc. may all represent simple pleasures, but in my interpretation Siduri was proposing that we embrace these simple pleasures.  Siduri's philosophy appears to be that we should live in and enjoy today. I have tried to follow her advice on a somewhat more literal level and have found myself and my family to be significantly happier as a result, especially my two year old daughter; she loves to dance, especially to upbeat party music!  However, it is in no way practical (at least not for me) to "dance and make music day and night" so I guess even people like me who wish to follow Siduri's advice on a more literal level will still need to find their own balance.



Olly Buckle said:


> 'Looking at the child who is holding your hand' a recognition that the culture of man still has some way to go, A child requires education to bring them up to speed, but they also represent the future development of the culture, not necessarily of the personal genetic form. This is the huge plus culture has over Darwinian evolution, it is not entirely random, new bits can be deliberately added and passed on to the next generation by other than physical means.


This is an excellent point!  My training as a geneticist, as well as a life-long love of neo-Darwinist concepts, as elucidated by Richard Dawkins in "The Selfish Gene", combined with my wife and I trying for a second child, blinded me to the cultural aspect of Siduri's words.  I think the sentence "Look at the child that is holding your hand" refers to both the nurture and the nature aspects of having children.  I will need to give the cultural aspect more thought and then make the necessary changes to both the article and my book.  Thank you so much for pointing this out!



Olly Buckle said:


> I find Siduri's concepts of understanding, happiness, and inheritance reminiscent of later trilogies, the Christian; faith, hope and charity; or the Buddhist; give, sympathise, control.


Fascinating.  I suspect that like Jesus, Buddha, or many of the philosophers throughout history, Siduri took concepts that were already culturally present and presented them in a form that could be easily understood and transmitted (we tend to have an easier time remembering things in threes) in this way these concepts became crystalized in history. 

Thanks again for your help, it is very much appreciated.

Best wishes,
Peter


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## Peter Dyr (Apr 1, 2013)

Olly Buckle said:


> There is, as you say, an element of the oral tradition about [Siduri's advice]. I have done a bit of storytelling, there is something about traditional storytelling which is akin to the therapeutic metaphore in that the aim is partially to be all things to all people.


Yes, I think you're right, I connected to what I saw in Siduri's words, while you rightly identified the cultural aspects that I originally missed.  I also agree that an overly literal interpretation of Siduri's advice is not practical. However, I think the underlying concepts are still fascinating as they highlight ideas that our ancient ancestors considered important enough to transmit from generation to generation before they were eventually recorded in clay. I still think that one of the concepts they were trying to advocate was a pro-family one.  Not only did Siduri end her advice to Gilgamesh on a pro-family note, but Ninsun (Gilgamesh's mother) was even more explicit:

"Ninsun implored him:
"O Gilgamesh, 
Cease your wandering.
Stay here my son,
And take a wife,
Have a child that you can lead by the hand.
This is the purpose of life""
(Epic of Gilgamesh)

And when Gilgamesh's adopted brother gets to temporarily leave the Underworld to enlighten Gilgamesh regarding the afterlife, the importance of having children again appears to be the primary message:

"A hole opened in the earth,
A strange form emerged,
A man made of plants and vines.
It was Enkidu!
The brothers embraced,
"My brother,
Tell me of the Underworld,
In which you dwell.
How is it with kings, have you seen them?" 
Enkidu replied:
"I have seen them, the kings wear no crowns, theirs is the lot of servants"
"How is it with heroes, have you seen them?"
"I have seen them, their parents hold their heads, their wives weep over them."
"What of the man having but one son, have you seen him?"
"I have seen him, his portion is but one glass of water."
"What of the man who had two sons; have you seen him?"
"I have seen him, he has a good house of bricks over his head and a loaf of bread each day"
"What of the man who had three sons, have you seen him?"
"I have seen him, daily he is refreshed from the waters of the deep."
"What of the man who had eight sons, have you seen him?"
"I have seen him, he has a great house of stone, and statues of his image,
His name is proclaimed on standards, in red and in gold,
Daily gifts and tributes are his reward!"
"Enkidu, what of the man who had no sons, have you seen him?"
"I have seen him, he lies unburied at the foot of the wall, 
Cast-off crusts of bread are his portion.""
(Epic of Gilgamesh)

Whether we agree or not with the concept, it is difficult to argue that at least one of the recurrent messages our ancient ancestors considered important enough to orally transmit for hundreds of years before the invention of writing revolved around the imperative of actually having children.  It is perhaps fortunate that ancient culture held these types of beliefs, because without them we might not be here today!

Best wishes,
Peter


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