# Editing Hell



## Bishop (Nov 3, 2014)

After 5 months of strict work and reading and rereading... I finally feel like I'm DONE with edits for my first book. _Beyond Light_ is done. It's in a final draft stage and HOLY HELL I hate editing.

It starts off easy enough, fixing grammar here or there, touching up a description or two... but soon you find yourself reading your own words, and when they're terrible you get this knot of dread in your stomach. _I wrote that? No, surely I'm better than that. I misspelled 'floor'?! What the hell is wrong with me?! How can someone 'chair' something?!

_The original rough draft was 105,000 words total. The final draft has clocked in at 84,315 words. The 20,000 deleted words were useless--I know, I looked at them. Then I hit "DELETE" as quickly as humanly possible.  I can honestly say this book is about what I wanted it to be. But I learned a lot by pushing through it and I fixed a lot of my major bad habits. 

In any case, I thought it'd be a good thread idea for us all to confess our editing hatreds, as I know it's a shared path that we all must take. The worst thing I remember from my edits was what my wife and I are now calling the "smelling" paragraph. It was a whole paragraph devoted to the smell of a place my characters walk through. It was long, dull, stuck out like a sore thumb, and was without a doubt the most useless piece of literary description ever. Because in the next paragraph, they leave that place. They're there. They smell. They move on.

What was I thinking?

irate:


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## Deleted member 56686 (Nov 3, 2014)

I have one more chapter to write on my first WIP (which ironically enough is about a leisurely trip to Hell). This means I am very close to what figures to be my first trip in the editing stage. My problem may be more about fleshing it out (I'm at close to 45,000 words now, I'll probably be at about 47,000 when the first draft is finished). The next step should be a very interesting experience as I am now taking notes for my second WIP. :nightmare:


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## Sam (Nov 3, 2014)

I must be the only person in history who doesn't hate editing. 

I love it.


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## dale (Nov 3, 2014)

the last short story i wrote was my 1st time even attempting the editing thing. and that was only because the publisher asked me
to make certain changes. actually, she asked me to add, instead of delete. so i didn't have much of a problem with that. i will work on a 
2nd draft on my current WIP novel when i'm done, though. mainly because now when i read my 1st novel, i wish i would've that one.


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## T.S.Bowman (Nov 3, 2014)

Sam said:


> I must be the only person in history who doesn't hate editing.
> 
> I love it.



Freak!


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## Terry D (Nov 3, 2014)

I'm currently putting the finishing touches on a collection of short stories I'm going to self-publish. I went through each of the eleven stories in the collection even though I'd already edited them the first time around. Two of the stories were written specifically for this collection, so I spent extra time with them. A couple of the tales are 30+ years old and needed updating, that was fun. I was very pleased to find that I still liked them very much.


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## tabasco5 (Nov 3, 2014)

What gets me is I will revise and edit and update my story for days or weeks at a time, re-reading it up to 50 times.  And then, after a good while I return to the story to read it for fun and find all these pathetic and obvious poor word or grammar choices.  It baffles me.


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## Schrody (Nov 3, 2014)

Sam said:


> I must be the only person in history who doesn't hate editing.
> 
> I love it.



No you're not 

You're gonna hate me now Bish, but I don't really hate editing. Maybe because I let it cool from the hot keys, so when I'm reading it I have the feeling like I'm reading it for the first time. Don't know 'bout all of you, but mostly when I read my stories after a while it feels like somebody else wrote it. It's great because I get another outlook/point of view so I can delete, edit and add a sentence or two. Heck, when I'm in the element it can be a page or pages  

Don't know why you're feeling like that. Maybe it didn't pass enough time between finishing and editing? Maybe you're bored of the story - it happens to me when I over-read the same story too many times - try working on something new, nothing better to stimulate creative juices


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## Deleted member 56686 (Nov 3, 2014)

Schrody said:


> No you're not
> 
> You're gonna hate me now Bish, but I don't really hate editing. Maybe because I let it cool from the hot keys, so when I'm reading it I have the feeling like I'm reading it for the first time. Don't know 'bout all of you, but mostly when I read my stories after a while it feels like somebody else wrote it. It's great because I get another outlook/point of view so I can delete, edit and add a sentence or two. Heck, when I'm in the element it can be a page or pages
> 
> ...




That sounds like good advice, Schrods, I do want to go over my WIP again, obviously:lol:

Also like something Bish has said in other threads as to have more than one WIP going (thus my history epic). When that bogs down I'll probably think up a third WIP which should keep me pretty busy


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## Bishop (Nov 3, 2014)

I waited a couple of months between completion to editing. I suppose it's one of those things, like how we hate the sounds of our own voices.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Nov 3, 2014)

We'll have to trade reads again, Bishop, because my story has been torn up and redone as well (largely thanks to your input).  New scenes, whole chapters deleted or replaced, complete recharacterization in some cases...it's been a trip.  From 150,000 words to 130,000 words, and counting.  I can fully sympathize with the "I wrote that??" sentiment.

The worst thing about editing, to me, is the rewriting to fill gaps after large chunks have been cut out.  I know, I know, a real writer should find that to be the best part, but this story was supposed to be DONE.  Why the heck do I have to write it again?


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## Bishop (Nov 3, 2014)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> We'll have to trade reads again, Bishop, because my story has been torn up and redone as well (largely thanks to your input).



Similarly, thanks to your insights, _Beyond Light_ is a very different book


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## Gamer_2k4 (Nov 3, 2014)

Speaking of trips, it's pretty trippy to scroll up and see two different avatars for you, Bishop:







and






I guess it has to do with how WF redraws the thread after a post?


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## Bishop (Nov 3, 2014)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> Speaking of trips, it's pretty trippy to scroll up and see two different avatars for you, Bishop:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Actually, I just swapped the Alien Snake from my avatar to my profile pic, and put up "Tell him, Baby!" from Escape From New York just now, hence the potential site confusion.


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## Schrody (Nov 3, 2014)

mrmustard615 said:


> That sounds like good advice, Schrods, I do want to go over my WIP again, obviously:lol:
> 
> Also like something Bish has said in other threads as to have more than one WIP going (thus my history epic). When that bogs down I'll probably think up a third WIP which should keep me pretty busy



Thanks mustard, but it's not only my advice - a lot of authors/members of the WF will tell you the same. Of course, just because it works for some doesn't mean it will work for everybody, but it's worth a shot. You have nothing to lose 

Don't know what to say Bish - I hope you'll find a way to make editing a less painful process.


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## Bishop (Nov 3, 2014)

Schrody said:


> Don't know what to say Bish - I hope you'll find a way to make editing a less painful process.



I'm sure that it'll get easier. Kinda like how eventually the hot coals burn off the nerves and you can't even feel the heat anymore! 



mrmustard615 said:


> Also like something Bish has said in other threads as to have more than one WIP going (thus my history epic). When that bogs down I'll probably think up a third WIP which should keep me pretty busy



I have more WsIP than I care to admit.

13. It's 13 WsIP.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Nov 3, 2014)

I don't know if I'll do thirteen at one time. Three or four maybe :lol:


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## Schrody (Nov 3, 2014)

Bishop said:


> I'm sure that it'll get easier. Kinda like how eventually the hot coals burn off the nerves and you can't even feel the heat anymore!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Or how you hurt yourself so you would forget the pain in the other area 

It's the exact number of my WIP's


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## voltigeur (Nov 3, 2014)

I have not developed the love hate relationship with editing. I’m so new coming back to writing and making so many mistakes I have the benefit of learning about myself from the editing process. 

From the online editors I have learned where I tend to get wordy. I have also seen when and where I tend to get off on tangents. The joy of editing is in the next piece I edit. My mistakes are getting smaller and smaller. (Yippie) 

My live critiques with my writer’s groups are getting more and more nitpicky so I take that as I am getting better. (That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.)

I tend in my first drafts to write like a lawyer making each point clear and distinct, trying to capture each nuance. After on line editing for grammar, spelling, and sticky sentences which takes one to two hours I do my second re-read. (Usually 2 weeks after first draft) I lose 20 to 50 words per scene. 

It is to the critique group after that. The thrill is those manuscript copies are coming back cleaner and cleaner. 

So at least for right now editing is just as fun as writing.


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## Tyler Danann (Nov 3, 2014)

Sam said:


> I must be the only person in history who doesn't hate editing.
> 
> I love it.



Very strange!

I've just finished my latest edit for _Mountain Hold_ and starting on _Way Captain._  I have to say I detest editing, yet it's the only way to get a book ship-shape and ready to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the big books out there.

I would sit, read and edit page after page and it took me 6 months to get the worst errors out of the way. Just got the last of it done, no more now. 

Writing a story to completion is only half the battle, you've gotten a draft but not a book!

[video=youtube;S_2zipUOcog]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_2zipUOcog[/video]​


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## InstituteMan (Nov 3, 2014)

I don't love editing. I don't hate editing. Editing is kind of a clinical operation for me. I try to be dispassionate. 

Until I discover stupid stuff that I did. Then I go full Bishop.


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## garza (Nov 3, 2014)

All good writing is the result of good editing. I offer in evidence Keats' notebooks.


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## Bishop (Nov 3, 2014)

garza said:


> All good writing is the result of good editing. I offer in evidence Keats' notebooks.



I don't disagree with it, I just dislike the process


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## Sam (Nov 4, 2014)

I can understand why people hate editing, but it doesn't make sense to me. I would have thought that anyone who loves the English language would love to tinker with and restructure it. 

I've learned more things editing than I have writing.


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## bookmasta (Nov 4, 2014)

It depends on the project. Somewhere with the wind was finished at 79,000 words in its first draft. I've cut it down to 68,000 after rewriting and removing quite a few scenes. Took six months total and was relatively easy. One Last cast is up to one year and counting though and I'm still planning more future revisions. So it depends on the project.


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## Schrody (Nov 4, 2014)

Sam said:


> I can understand why people hate editing, but it doesn't make sense to me. I would have thought that anyone who loves the English language would love to tinker with and restructure it.
> 
> I've learned more things editing than I have writing.



Who says we love English? :lol:

Just kidding.


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## Seedy M. (Nov 4, 2014)

One thing to notice from this thread: good editing removes unnecessary content, it does not add. "Fleshing out" a work is writing to formula, and is disaster. When I first started writing it was for traditional publishers, who demanded a word count. I have gotten to the point where most of my stuff is no more than a novella size. Reviews and ratings have people who noted that I tell the story with only small parts about personalities and nothing about what anyone was wearing or what their jewelry was like. Who cares unless as in one case, the woman was killed because of an emerald pendant. "He grimaced" is more effective than three paragraphs about how his lip curled as a pained sigh escaped his constricted throat...blah, blah, blah. Critics have noted that my earlier work could become tedious, even though the story was excellent. I revised all of that olde stuff for the eBooks. They are much better accepted. A 115,000 word book was reduced to 65,000 words and is a much better read for it.
The proof: books that got three stars originally have consistently moved to four or even five stars.
Editing for the mechanics should be automatic. For content is optional, but very much critical.


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## hvysmker (Nov 4, 2014)

To me, writing fiction is an ongoing learning experience.  Editing is a necessary part.  As I learn, I find it necessary to constantly update former works.  Reading this thread caused me to look up my first novel.  It was written in 2006 and has been revised and edited several times, the last time was two years ago. Since I've had two years of experience since then, I think it's about time I hauled it out to go over again.  I know I'll make many changes.

I think of editing as a never-ending process.

Charlie


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## Gamer_2k4 (Nov 4, 2014)

Sam said:


> I can understand why people hate editing, but it doesn't make sense to me. I would have thought that anyone who loves the English language would love to tinker with and restructure it.
> 
> I've learned more things editing than I have writing.



You might be surprised at how many writers don't have much care for the English language.


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## Sam (Nov 4, 2014)

That seems counter-productive to me, but to each his/her own.


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## Bishop (Nov 4, 2014)

Sam said:


> I can understand why people hate editing, but it doesn't make sense to me. I would have thought that anyone who loves the English language would love to tinker with and restructure it.
> 
> I've learned more things editing than I have writing.



For me, it just feels more like work; because it is work. I'm actually learning and fixing my mistakes and becoming a better writer instead of just creating little worlds and stories. Absolutely, I learn a lot more editing than I do writing. I'm just a big baby, is all.


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## David Gordon Burke (Nov 4, 2014)

Sam said:


> I must be the only person in history who doesn't hate editing.
> 
> I love it.



Actually, I`m fond of the process too.  It`s the first draft part that I hate.  The story is in my mind.  Getting it onto paper if a beeeeeeetttttccccchhhhhhh.  What if I set it up wrong?  What if I miss important details?  What if I have to go back and re-write the whole thing?  These are the doubt that slow me down.  But let me get that first draft on paper and I`m nuts to edit.  Editting I Do.  Writing I struggle with.  

David Gordon Burke


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## Schrody (Nov 4, 2014)

Hey David, good to see you're back!


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## Tettsuo (Nov 4, 2014)

I love the first 1st or 2nd pass.  After that, I start to hate it with a passion!


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## Bishop (Nov 6, 2014)

And here's the part I like of editing... the actual rewrites. I suppose you can call me a liar, because after discussing with my wife (who read the book recently) I was told I should have more in a certain part of the ending. This lead to a long conversation where the ending changed somewhat dramatically and now, my adrenaline is pumping and I'm excitedly making the additions/changes. I think I'm enjoying this part more, because I'm creating again, rather than just making small alterations


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## K.S. Crooks (Nov 6, 2014)

For my first published novel I got into such a good rhythm for my writing, I chose to wait to the end to edit...never again. Like you I found it torturous. My WIP is the sequel and I am editing a chapter when it is complete. I am doing a basic search for unnecessary words or phrases and making sure the concepts hold with the rest of the story. I am also giving groups of three chapters to my wife to read and find mistakes. At the end I will do a full read out loud and have a neighbour help edit. I think the key is to break it up so that you read what is actually there...and not what you think should be there. Good luck with the book.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Nov 6, 2014)

K.S. Crooks said:


> I think the key is to break it up so that you read what is actually there...and not what you think should be there.



That's killer for me.  I had planned my characters and scenes well ahead of actually writing the book, and I didn't realize until I had gotten feedback how much I had written based on assumptions - for example, a character acting a certain way, because "of course he would," rather than because there had been precedent for it in the story.  My book is great, as long as you know everything that I do.


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## GeekWriter (Nov 6, 2014)

I share your pain but apparently I'm not feeling it as badly as I haven't dealt with such long works, mainly just do 1000 or so word pieces as I tend to focus on short blog posts rather than actual stories.

I can only imagine my brain taking on such a challenge...


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## EmmaSohan (Nov 6, 2014)

I used to enjoy it, I think because I was finding things to make my book better (like a better word). Now I find problems that are hard to fix.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Nov 7, 2014)

I just went through a first quick edit, and I'm thinking parts of my WIP isn't funny enough (we'll soon fine out though) :nevreness:

Anyway, I realized I could add a couple things here and there to enhance the WI a bit more. I think that is one advantage of the editing process. :smile:


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## helium (Nov 11, 2014)

Editing a novel from two years ago is difficult. I could only imagine myself in the same mindset. So far my method is keeping different edited versions over the original to keep track of everything.


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## tabasco5 (Nov 21, 2014)

tabasco5 said:


> What gets me is I will revise and edit and update my story for days or weeks at a time, re-reading it up to 50 times.  And then, after a good while I return to the story to read it for fun and find all these pathetic and obvious poor word or grammar choices.  It baffles me.



So, about 3 months ago I wrote a screenplay for a contest.  I revised it 3 times and then put it down for 2 weeks.  I then read through the screenplay 50 times making little changes to word choice, grammar, etc.  In order to call a manuscript complete, I go through it line by line 5 times without changing anything.  I did this.  So I went through the screenplay a total of 55 times and then submitted.

Skip to this week.  I had a friend ask to read the screenplay, so I sent it to him and then read it myself afterwards.  In doing so, I have found at least half a dozen skipped or misspelled words, grammar errors, and formatting issues...

Just goes to say that professional editors are worth every penny.


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## Apex (Nov 21, 2014)

Sol Stein, who was a great writer, editor, publisher, and teacher said: "Your tie is blue, your shirt is blue, and your suit is blue... that's what's wrong with your writing."  I have learned to live by those words. I used to fear editing. Sol said, "You must learn to edit your own work.  It is a task you must learn to do."
Mr Stein left a long list of things that need to be done when editing. I do it one thing at a time. I leave spelling, and grammar for last. If your spelling, and grammar are in need of help, find an english teacher, and give her $100 to go over your work.


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## bookmasta (Nov 21, 2014)

I generally don't do rewrites, just revision when deemed necessary. Though the current manuscript I'm working on is proving to be a must for a rewrite of nearly all the scenes. Can't say I'm a fan of it since I'm acutely aware of how much more work it will take.


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## Bishop (Nov 21, 2014)

Apex said:


> If your spelling, and grammar are in need of help, find an english teacher, and give her $100 to go over your work.



As the husband of one English teacher and close friend of another, I would recommend _against_ doing this, as it's somewhat demeaning. There's plenty of pro editors out there who'd be happy to take that money, because that's their actual job.  English teachers, and English programs stray away from grammar as soon as possible and in fact attempt to teach literature and critical thinking/argumentative writing.


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## Apex (Nov 21, 2014)

Bishop said:


> As the husband of one English teacher and close friend of another, I would recommend _against_ doing this, as it's somewhat demeaning. There's plenty of pro editors out there who'd be happy to take that money, because that's their actual job.  English teachers, and English programs stray away from grammar as soon as possible and in fact attempt to teach literature and critical thinking/argumentative writing.



My suggestion for an English teacher for for spelling, and grammar only...not editing.


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## tabasco5 (Nov 21, 2014)

For me personally, I can only get my work to 99%. It's something about reading my own work - my mind sometimes reads things that aren't there and misses things that are because I know what it's supposed to say. An editor does not, therefore they can boost my work that extra 1%. Fortunately I know a good editor that works at reasonable rates. But I would never hire someone just because they teach English, or just because they are an editor as far as that goes.


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## Bishop (Nov 21, 2014)

Apex said:


> My suggestion for an English teacher for for spelling, and grammar only...not editing.



English teachers aren't just dispensers of grammar and spelling, is my point. It should be our goal as writers to learn spelling and grammar to the best of our ability. The English language isn't something we hire someone else to fix for us, it's our one and only tool for telling our story.


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## Tettsuo (Nov 21, 2014)

tabasco5 said:


> For me personally, I can only get my work to 99%. It's something about reading my own work - my mind sometimes reads things that aren't there and misses things that are because I know what it's supposed to say. An editor does not, therefore they can boost my work that extra 1%. Fortunately I know a good editor that works at reasonable rates. But I would never hire someone just because they teach English, or just because they are an editor as far as that goes.


This is the same thing I ran into.  I CAN'T edit my own work after my initial passes for content and continuity.  Line editing and proofreading are simply out of reach for me.  I appear to not be able to easily see the simple errors.  It actually pretty bizarre when I read it out loud and completely miss obvious errors.

- - - Updated - - -



garza said:


> All good writing is the result of good editing. I offer in evidence Keats' notebooks.


I always bristle when I read this often repeated comment.

I get it, I really do understand why people say it, but it still raises my hackles.


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## tabasco5 (Nov 21, 2014)

Tettsuo said:


> I appear to not be able to easily see the simple errors.  It actually pretty bizarre when I read it out loud and completely miss obvious errors.
> 
> -



Yes.  Bizarre and sometimes embarrassing if you have sent it to others to read.


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## bookmasta (Nov 21, 2014)

Tettsuo said:


> This is the same thing I ran into.  I CAN'T edit my own work after my initial passes for content and continuity.  Line editing and proofreading are simply out of reach for me.  I appear to not be able to easily see the simple errors.  It actually pretty bizarre when I read it out loud and completely miss obvious errors.



This happens to me too, even a ten novels later. I find it best to step away from my work for a few months at a time, and when I come back, such errors aren't missed.


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## J Anfinson (Nov 21, 2014)

I'm like Sam, I like editing. The basic story is laid out before me. I know then what I want from it so I'm excited to put a shine on it. Though it might not always appear that way, I'm really OCD about making things perfect. I can't even stand to leave bad grammar in my posts, let alone a story. I actually find editing less painful than writing most of the time.

The worst stuff I've ever edited would have to be some of the first stories I wrote. There were dozens of terrible cliches, cheesy dialogue (some of it melodramatic), and lots of describing the wallpaper type stuff (a real snooze-fest).


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## Pluralized (Nov 21, 2014)

I've never really edited anything. It just comes out and I go. But I've also never finished and had a novel published, and novel-length stuff is totally different than shorts. I'll be editing heavy on this thing I'm writing now, but kind of looking forward to sculpting the story and I think refining should be infinitely easier than producing. The hard part is macro-editing where complete sections of plot have to be reworked or rewritten. I prefer typos and commas.


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## ziodice (Nov 21, 2014)

See, I've no experience with editing big works - rarely does anything I do go more than a page before I lose all motivation and inspiration to write, I should truly work on that, but when I look at that page or less a little while later and turn it into a lot less sucky of a page or less, well...it's honestly my favorite part. While _reading_ my work always puts me into a cycle of sighing and self loathing, fixing it and making it better immediately afterwards always puts me in a good mood.


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## EmmaSohan (Nov 21, 2014)

Apex said:


> Mr Stein left a long list of things that need to be done when editing. I do it one thing at a time. I leave spelling, and grammar for last. If your spelling, and grammar are in need of help, find an english teacher, and give her $100 to go over your work.



Yeah, one of the writing magazines gave exactly this same advice. Have a list of things to do in editing, then read over your book once and do the first one, read over again and do the second, and so on. That's sounds formidable to me, but the advice makes sense.


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## T.S.Bowman (Nov 21, 2014)

Here's the problem that I foresee when I go to begin the editing process for Side Worlds...

There have been a few readers of parts of it who have told me that I need to be "more descriptive." That means that, rather than editing out stuff, I am going to wind up putting more stuff in. I can probably find some stuff to take out, maybe reword a lot of sentences and things like that. But to add more descriptional things is going to, in all likelihood, more than cancel out any cutting I manage to do.

I think I am going to wind up having to hire an editor. I know the normal advice is to walk away from the work for a while. The problem with that, though, is I have done that on a few separate occasions and when I come back to it, it's still as familiar to me as when I first wrote it. I have gone back to "fix" a few things here and there, but for the most part, I still miss some very glaring errors that are only brought up to me by other readers.


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## J Anfinson (Nov 21, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> I know the normal advice is to walk away from the work for a while. The problem with that, though, is I have done that on a few separate occasions and when I come back to it, it's still as familiar to me as when I first wrote it. I have gone back to "fix" a few things here and there, but for the most part, I still miss some very glaring errors that are only brought up to me by other readers.



Sometimes it can take that very thing to catch things, and I for one would recommend it whether you're good at catching your own mistakes or not. However, what I try to do when I edit is detach myself from the work completely. Look at it as if someone else wrote it. The best way I can explain it is to clear your head of what you know the words say and instead read it. Or maybe I'm just weird that I can do that. Of course, I'm not saying I'm perfect at it, but I do catch a lot of things I wouldn't see otherwise.


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## T.S.Bowman (Nov 21, 2014)

I may actually be a little better suited for looking at it more objectively than I used to be since I have been hanging out around here.

I guess the only way to find out is going to be trying to do it and go from there.

Of course, that's a ways off yet since I'm not even close to done with the first draft.


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## Apex (Nov 21, 2014)

CC


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