# The COVID 19 Discussion thread



## VRanger

Irwin said:


> It's one thing to embrace crazy conspiracy theories. It's another to be so lazy that you can't even bother following proper writing guidelines. Then again, to believe crazy conspiracy theories requires intellectual laziness.



There needs to be a "Love" option for posts like this. I feel sorry for people who buy into conspiracy theories. Sit with me at my kitchen table for ten minutes, and I'll convince you that Joe DiMaggio is responsible for the assassination of JFK. I've succeeded plenty of times. But I'm honest, so after I have some sucker sold hook, line, and sinker, I *do *explain that it's all nonsense, and why.

I've even told people it's not true before I begin, and when I get through, some people say, "Wait. That sounds so logical. It makes me wonder."

Conspiracy theory wackos need to learn and embrace Hanlon's Razor:

 "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."


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## dither

Olly Buckle said:


> Come on Dale, be fair. He said 'believe crazy conspiracy theories', that doesn't preclude giving the saner ones a bit of credence; and I have the feeling his 'intellectual laziness' and your 'blind acceptance' are pretty comparable, they both denigrate taking things on board without thinking about it. You seem more influenced by the manner of expression than the content in this case.
> 
> Getting back to the thread, our cat has become very vocal, it miaows whenever it comes in, and sometimes just passing me in the garden. This is new behaviour.



Animals are very perceptive I think. Who knows what undercurrents abound  with this C19 going on.


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## Olly Buckle

Biro said:


> Writers are supposed to think out of the box aren't they?  So Dale may have a point.
> 
> So Dale an agenda by globalists to reset the economy?
> 
> Ok I can believe that but globalists need sales of goods to make money and further their power so by killing off the population is going to against their policy isn't it?
> 
> Destroying booming economies is going to destroy spending and destroy sales of goods etc isn't it?
> 
> So the agenda is not going to plan it seems?



It is simple, when companies go bust you can buy them up for pennies. The people who own 98% of everything get hold of most of the other 2%. Then they re-inflate the economy. I can do conspiracy theory with the best.

I now live in a little dead end street where we have a couple of musical families. One guy is a real enthusiast who first introduced the idea of drumming on applauding the NHS night, then a salsa rhythm. This last week he organised both families as a little orchestra and distributed a song sheet, "Our street, supports the NHS..." sung to the tune of 'Colonel Bogie'. It is kind of nice because everyone comes out in their front gardens and stay to have long distance conversations across the road and we have all got to know each other a bit.


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## RWK

Biro said:


> A conspiracy theory is just a story.  Dreamed up by someone with a good imagination or by gathering facts and assembling them to mean something else.
> 
> No different than a writers fiction story.



Don't be knocking writer's fiction. :suspicion:

Or conspiracies, because they sell books. There are authors who have made a well-paid career off a conspiracy. Not to mention multi-million-dollar media outlets.

Even Stephen King has cashed in on the conspiracy cow.


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## RWK

Olly Buckle said:


> It is simple, when companies go bust you can buy them up for pennies. The people who own 98% of everything get hold of most of the other 2%. Then they re-inflate the economy. I can do conspiracy theory with the best.



Not bad, but my theory is the virus is a bioweapon released by a consortium of the Commonwealth National Health Care organizations and the major medical insurance corporations.

This is proven by the fact that the majority of the deceased will be people with serious pre-existing conditions, particularly older people. Each one of those people represent hundreds of thousands of dollars in long-term medical treatment, expenditures which the cabal would have to foot. Sure, 2020 will go deep into the red, but the end result will be billions in expenditures that won't have to be paid in the years to come.

Better still, the virus is just a flu, and the actual deaths are being caused by the agents of the cabal, which explains why only certain treatments are being advocated strongly. That way they can target the long-term expense-generators, and also take out a few healthy people to cloud the issue. Or even not-so-healthy. Come from a family with a high risk of cancer? Off you go into the next life, and no autopsy performed.

With the lethal aspect in the meds, and this virus billed as a 'novel' disease, you need very few people to carry it out. If someone stumbles upon it, you blame the pressure of the pandemic having resulted in a failure of quality control.


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## Gofa

Best 25 word conspiracy theory


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## Foxee

*Here is a new home for discussion of all things COVID 19. 

This isn't the place for debate, tickets to Dante's are available for that. 

Please keep it civil. It would be nice not to have to lock this one. 

Thanks,
F.*​


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## RWK

So have we ruled out a conspiracy by the producers of toilet paper?


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## RWK

Biro said:


> Anybody have a clue what we talk about here?8-[



No, but it's never stopped me before.


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## Foxee

The only rules are those that cover WF. Everything else is wide open.


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## Ma'am

Deleted. Wrong place, I think.


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## Terry D

RWK said:


> You mean like thinking cloth masks will protect you from an airborne virus? :adoration:
> 
> What they do is increase an uninfected person's vulnerability. They would reduce an infected subject's ability to spread the virus, if made, worn, and maintained properly, but I've yet to see one outside a medical facility worn correctly. Not that you see many around here. In the last week I've seen one guy wearing a dust mask, and another guy wearing gardening gloves, a homemade mask, and his flannel PJs (in a store). I'm not sure if he was a hipster being ironic, or not.
> 
> People are holding 'virus parties', like back when I was a kid and your parents would send you to play with a local kid who had chicken pox: get it when you're ready to deal with it. Over 90% require only OTC medication to deal with it, with about 5-6% requiring prescription meds. In the US, the death rate is 0.0025% assuming that the numbers aren't being padded in NY,NJ, and Illinois (where there is no criminal penalty for false cause of death in non-criminal cases, and their reported rates are strangely out of sync) to secure more Federal emergency funds, which pay by body count.



Only Covid-19 is NOT caused by an airborne virus. The purpose of masks is to create a barrier to stop the spread of minuscule droplets of saliva, or other bodily fluids, expelled by coughing sneezing or even just talking. Some of these virus containing droplets can remain in the air for a short time, but the virus itself is not airborne. So, even home-made masks can provide an significant barrier to the spread.

EDIT: Sorry, I posted this before reading Foxee's warning above.


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## Gofa

To me we were getting near the truth of the conspiracy on this thread 
and it was deleted by unseen powers in the dead of night
none dare call that conspiracy either 
we know they are out there but don't let them see you noticing them


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## PiP

Covid can be spread in a number of ways

REF CDC.Gov



> *How COVID-19 Spreads*
> 
> 
> COVID-19 is thought to spread mainly through close contact from person-to-person. Some people without symptoms may be able to spread the virus. We are still learning about how the virus spreads and the severity of illness it causes.
> *Person-to-person spread*
> 
> *The virus is thought to spread mainly from person-to-person.*
> 
> 
> Between people who are in close contact with one another (within about 6 feet).
> Through respiratory droplets produced when an infected person coughs, sneezes, or talks.
> These droplets can land in the mouths or noses of people who are nearby or possibly be inhaled into the lungs.
> COVID-19 may be spread by people who are not showing symptoms.
> *The virus spreads easily between people*
> 
> How easily a virus spreads from person-to-person can vary. Some viruses are highly contagious, like measles, while other viruses do not spread as easily. Another factor is whether the spread is sustained, which means it goes from person-to-person without stopping.
> *The virus that causes COVID-19 is spreading very easily and sustainably between people.* Information from the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic suggest that this virus is spreading more efficiently than influenza, but not as efficiently as measles, which is highly contagious.
> *The virus may be spread in other ways*
> 
> It may be possible that a person can get COVID-19 by *touching a surface or object that has the virus on it* and then touching their own mouth, nose, or possibly their eyes. This is not thought to be the main way the virus spreads, but we are still learning more about how this virus spreads.
> *Spread between animals and people*
> 
> 
> 
> At this time, the risk of COVID-19 spreading *from animals to people* is considered to be low. Learn about COVID-19 and pets and other animals.
> It appears that the virus that causes COVID-19 can spread *from people to animals* in some situations. CDC is aware of a small number of pets worldwide, including cats and dogs, reported to be infected with the virus that causes COVID-19, mostly after close contact with people with COVID-19. Learn what you should do if you have pets.
> *Protect yourself and others*
> 
> *The best way to prevent illness is to avoid being exposed to this virus. *You can take steps to slow the spread.
> 
> 
> Maintain good social distance (about 6 feet). This is very important in preventing the spread of COVID-19.
> Wash your hands often with soap and water. If soap and water are not available, use a hand sanitizer that contains at least 60% alcohol.
> Routinely clean and disinfect frequently touched surfaces.
> Learn more about what you can do to protect yourself and others.



Because of the way it spreads, when I go shopping, pharmacy or indeed anywhere where I am in contact with people, I remove all my clothes before entering the house and immediately take a hot shower. The clothes are then washed. I hand wash the cotton masks in water over 60C.

How many of you shower after contact with people?

How long does the virus remain on surfaces - there are mixed messages
https://www.livescience.com/how-long-coronavirus-last-surfaces.html

It can spread so easily that when they lift the lockdown restrictions I am convinced we will see a second wave of infections

This is an interesting source of information
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/


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## Olly Buckle

Dale , your conspiracy theory does not exclude the corona virus thing being real. When real stuff turns up and it can be subverted to a cause by some interested party, damn sure they are going to try it, don't necessarily mean the stuff 'aint real, or even that it is exaggerated. Better from their point of view if not, makes them look more credible.


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## River Rose

Biro said:


> Anybody have a clue what we talk about here?8-[


In someone’s spiel I read antichrist. So,,,I am going w that. :smiley_simmons:


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## River Rose

PiP said:


> Covid can be spread in a number of ways
> 
> REF CDC.Gov
> 
> 
> 
> Because of the way it spreads, when I go shopping, pharmacy or indeed anywhere where I am in contact with people, I remove all my clothes before entering the house and immediately take a hot shower. The clothes are then washed. I hand wash the cotton masks in water over 60C.
> 
> How many of you shower after contact with people?
> 
> How long does the virus remain on surfaces - there are mixed messages
> https://www.livescience.com/how-long-coronavirus-last-surfaces.html
> 
> It can spread so easily that when they lift the lockdown restrictions I am convinced we will see a second wave of infections
> 
> This is an interesting source of information
> 
> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/



Define “coming in contact w people”. In what capacity am I coming in contact w them? If it’s very close contact, as to say, we are swapping more than just phone numbers...for example,,,swapping spit. Yes,,,maybe then it would warrant a quick scrub down. 
Although, I live in a cesspool of germs. My 8 kids are walking Petri dishes most of the time. So, I don’t want to add to my current laundry conundrum. I will take my chances.


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## Foxee

Terry D said:


> EDIT: Sorry, I posted this before reading Foxee's warning above.


Hey this thread is FOR discussion, not to stop it.  But if you want to write something that's more the equivalent of hitting people with chairs everyone knows Dante's is the best place for that sort of debate.



Gofa said:


> To me we were getting near the truth of the conspiracy on this thread
> and it was deleted by unseen powers in the dead of night
> none dare call that conspiracy either
> we know they are out there but don't let them see you noticing them


*Hands Gofa a nice handmade tinfoil hat*
Now sleep well...we'll be watching you.


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## Olly Buckle

Foxee said:


> *Hands Gofa a nice handmade tinfoil hat*
> Now sleep well...we'll be watching you.



I had a vision of Foxee, Gumby, Darren and Velo, with wings, standing at the four corners of the bed watching over Gofa, asleep in tin helmet with toy sword by his side.


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## Gofa

Oh Foxee   I do love seeing you on tip toe looking in my window 
seeing you from my vantage point of the garden seat 
truly you are all tail in the five inch heels


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## Gofa

Olly Buckle said:


> I had a vision of Foxee, Gumby, Darren and Velo, with wings, standing at the four corners of the bed watching over Gofa, asleep in tin helmet with toy sword by his side.



ahh the angels of the four corners standing guard watching over me 

oh dear how sad never mind

Three hundred years ago cannibalism was common in New Zealand

some of us like to keep these traditions from falling away

Gumby gumbo; Foxee fore quarter; (tastes like chicken)
and Darren and Velo stew  the tough and stringy ones are best stewed, Extra salt too

but be assured, you being nice people i would try not eat you all at once
foreigner on toast next morning is something special
but when you tell your friends I’m having a barbecue for foreigners 
usually there are no left overs 

PS  when you’re  put into the big pot for boiling  please can you try not to be afraid
fear and tension can spoil the more delicate flavours


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## Gofa

Oh Pip  be still my heart

i am prepared to buy your neighboring property sight unseen 

Because of the way it spreads, when I go shopping, pharmacy or indeed anywhere where I am in contact with people,

I remove all my clothes before entering the house and immediately take a hot shower. 

Yes  i will make you a massive youtube hit each video set to music 


I hand wash the cotton masks in water over 60C.

oh dearvthat is going to hurt 55C is pretty burning 

ah yes my final point 

How many of you shower after contact with people?

When I was young it was often before during and after with sleeping together usually involved

now though its cut back to a shower and nice clothes before going out to be sociable 

i feel i am missing something here but have to admit I have not moved on from picturing you
taking your clothes off standing on your front step before opening your door


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## Olly Buckle

> PS when you’re put into the big pot for boiling please can you try not to be afraid
> fear and tension can spoil the more delicate flavours



In Spain the beef from bull fights commands a higher price, they say the hormones make it taste better.


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## Gofa

No i cant   Making foreigners fight before eating them is cruel and unhuman


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## PiP

River Rose said:


> Define “coming in contact w people”. In what capacity am I coming in contact w them? If it’s very close contact, as to say, we are swapping more than just phone numbers...for example,,,swapping spit. Yes,,,maybe then it would warrant a quick scrub down.
> Although, I live in a cesspool of germs. My 8 kids are walking Petri dishes most of the time. So, I don’t want to add to my current laundry conundrum. I will take my chances.



IT's not just SPIT, it is close contact - touching surfaces etc then rubbing eyes or not washing hands before touching mouth. So if your your kids are walking petri dishes how fair is it on others not to take care. If you don't want to launder your clothes then leave them for a few days. When I go shopping we can't observe the 2Metre rule when passing people in the aisles or at check out, however hard we try. IT scares me when I read comments such as yours.


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## andrewclunn

I believe in crazy conspiracies regarding COVID-19, like the WHO being subverted by China and trying to downplay the virus to disastrous effect:

https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1217...|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1217043229427761152

And the CDC and surgeon general spreading scare tactic misinformation about face masks to try and decrease demand by the general public:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/02/health/surgeon-general-coronavirus-masks-risk-trnd/index.html

But I guess paying attention to actual information instead of believing the spoon fed (and ever changing) "truth" as dictated by "experts" makes me a wacko.  And remember, conspiracy theories are more dangerous than the virus itself, so don't post too close to me :ghost:


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## epimetheus

Humans have regularly reported pandemics and plagues since recorded history began. But this one, _this one_, is different...


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## dither

epimetheus said:


> Humans have regularly reported pandemics and plagues since recorded history began. But this one, _this one_, is different...



Yeah,,,,,,,,, looks that way.
It's a bit like computer-hackers, no matter how good the anti-virus, somebody out there is knocking themselves out to break in.
Same with any virus, I guess. To repel it doesn't mean it's beaten. It/they.... change....evolve.... persevere. They endure.


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## dither

River Rose said:


> Define “coming in contact w people”. In what capacity am I coming in contact w them? If it’s very close contact, as to say, we are swapping more than just phone numbers...for example,,,swapping spit. Yes,,,maybe then it would warrant a quick scrub down.
> Although, I live in a cesspool of germs. My 8 kids are walking Petri dishes most of the time. So, I don’t want to add to my current laundry conundrum. I will take my chances.



Rose, I'd fancy you and your kids' chances more than many others. Don't know what you mean by " Petri dishes ", damned Americanisms. I take it that your kids are no strangers to common forms of, what might be referred to as, "friendly" and maybe some "not so friendly" bacteria. And so, I would assume that they have pretty good, kick-ass, immune systems. Yes? As epimetheus has said, "this one is different" but you and your's have got a head start on germs. I'm a great believer in " what doesn't kill you makes you stronger ". And so far your kids seem to have  that "Petri" under control, yes? Take heart Rose, take heart. Your rearing strong kids, GOOD stuff, and I bet you're keepin 'em straight. None of my business of course. They got as good a chance as any, and you to, why not?

When my son was born we sterilised everything, and I mean EVERYTHING..... Now they're the ones with the allergies. No dirt = no resistance imo.


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## River Rose

PiP said:


> IT's not just SPIT, it is close contact - touching surfaces etc then rubbing eyes or not washing hands before touching mouth. So if your your kids are walking petri dishes how fair is it on others not to take care. If you don't want to launder your clothes then leave them for a few days. When I go shopping we can't observe the 2Metre rule when passing people in the aisles or at check out, however hard we try. IT scares me when I read comments such as yours.


I was just being silly. As a mom of 8 I find the humor of our family life where I can. 
Yet this whole Covid thing is way out of control. People have lost all common sense.


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## Olly Buckle

The mention of petri dishes made me remember that school experiment where someone at each bench from front to back of the lab had a petri dish with agar in. At a given signal a boy at the front was given a sniff of pepper to make him sneeze and everyone took the lids off the dishes for a short period , then put them back. The following week you can see the cultures gradually get fewer as you move toward the back of the class. Can you imagine the result of making a child sniff pepper nowadays? 
That aside it was obvious bacteria from a healthy child were travelling far more than two meters, it seems that may be a rather arbitrary distance, it seems to vary a bit from place to place. Somewhere was saying one and a half meters. 
The key factor is the number of people each person who catches the disease then infects. If that number drops below one and can be kept there fewer and fewer people become infected and eventually the disease dies out. If staying two meters apart makes it improbable you will get infected it can, therefore be worth it, even if it doesn't always work. But I can't see it as a hard and fast rule.


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## kaminoshiyo

andrewclunn said:


> I believe in crazy conspiracies regarding COVID-19, like the WHO being subverted by China and trying to downplay the virus to disastrous effect:
> 
> https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1217...|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1217043229427761152
> 
> And the CDC and surgeon general spreading scare tactic misinformation about face masks to try and decrease demand by the general public:
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/02/health/surgeon-general-coronavirus-masks-risk-trnd/index.html
> 
> But I guess paying attention to actual information instead of believing the spoon fed (and ever changing) "truth" as dictated by "experts" makes me a wacko.  And remember, conspiracy theories are more dangerous than the virus itself, so don't post too close to me :ghost:



Truly. I don't even understand how people can even vote in this country anymore. It's like they haven't even been paying attention to all the lies and corruption on any side. How much BS the covid story is. Anyone here familiar with Fort Detrick? Anyone familiar with how much death and carnage Bill Gates has wrought in places like India and Africa with his vaccines in the past? How the companies behind the manufacture of the vaccines being proposed have been sued by US servicemen for giving them vaccines that have severely compromised their health? How closely Bill Gates and his foundation is tied to Epstein- both of them being tied to eugenics? (hence his saintly sacrifice to the cause of global population control) Anyone even hear of these things because that's just the skin of it. Ever wonder why this country has a history of poisoning people both domestically and abroad?

The worst thing is that people look down on conspiracy theories so smugly as if that were intelligent. Kind of like this new anti-vaxx thing. Suddenly anyone who expresses caution of having themselves or their children legally mandated to be injected with chemicals from companies that face ZERO accountability for whatever happens, whatever's in it...they're stupid ignorant people. I nor any one in my family except my mother has ever had a vaccine and we aren't raging plague carriers. My neighbors go outside and barbecue- all ages involved- and they aren't falling over dying. I live in NYC. It is no where near as bad as they are making it seem. I only wear a mask so I don't be harassed about not wearing one, and because you can't enter many places without one. 

It's so backwards. This is supposed to be the land of freedom, courage, and independence...but it's proven to be just a basket of gullible people that routinely get conned left and right.


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## RWK

Biro said:


> Labeling something a conspiracy story is like what the lefties and pc crowd tried to do up until recently by calling someone a racist if they spoke out on facts or concerns which went against their aims.
> 
> So what you have now is people saying that this evaluation, concern, or evidence is just another conspiracy story.  They do this probably because you are nearing the truth.
> 
> This virus just seems it isn't going to go away without a fight.  Originally it is supposed to have jumped from a bat or animal because of some chinese person eating it.
> 
> Question 1:........It can't be the first time some person ever chewed a bat or associated animal.  So why didn't the virus spread before?
> 
> Question 2:........Why do the Chinese get touchy when people say it came from their research lab?
> 
> Question 3:.......If it didn't start in China then how come people around the world werent dying of it before?
> 
> Question 4:.......If it's only a bit of flu then why has the world dismantled their economies to shut us all at home?
> 
> Question 5:......How come Gates has suddenly become so vocal about something which has nothing to do with him or his businesses?
> 
> Question 6:.....Why am I writing this when its a lovely sunny day and the dogs are going mad for their walk?
> 
> Out.



Stuff happens. And it never stopped happening because people wondered.

The only thing you can control is how much you let it affect your life.


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## epimetheus

Biro said:


> Labeling something a conspiracy story is like what the lefties and pc crowd tried to do up until recently by calling someone a racist if they spoke out on facts or concerns which went against their aims.
> 
> So what you have now is people saying that this evaluation, concern, or evidence is just another conspiracy story.  They do this probably because you are nearing the truth.



Which conspiracy? 
That coronavirus doesn't exist and this is all an attempt at manipulation of people and/or markets.
Or that the virus is real but spread by 5G mobile technology?
That the virus was created in a lab to aid someone in global domination? 
And if so who? The Americans, Chinese, Bill Gates and big pharma are the most frequently cited.
Or that the virus is a result of GMOs?

Or, maybe, just maybe, it's a virus that has evolved to infect humans. You know, like has been happening periodically throughout all of recorded human history.

But wait, someone Twitter reckons it's a bio weapon to kill Muslims...


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## Olly Buckle

This is the one to kill old Muslims, the one for young Muslims is still in development.

Seriously, it is designed to put the air travel industry out of business and stigmatise China. Then they will buy up all those unused aircraft, convert them, and bomb China, so removing the economic threat.


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## andrewclunn

Governments funded research into viruses to protect against a pandemic.  Of course that research got banned in "respectable" countries, so much like torture and high pollution industries, we outsourced it (this time to China):

https://asiatimes.com/2020/04/why-us-outsourced-bat-virus-research-to-wuhan/

Of course China done screwed up and the virus got out, and they blame the US and Western governments for... giving them money to do the research?  The West blames China for... doing what they were paid to do?  Or perhaps for lying about what was going on to their people and the rest of the world, making the outbreak far worse (not that Western governments and media EVER do that).  So now we must all xenophobically blame the other evil government and their lying media, while trusting in our own to protect us from this man made pathogen, otherwise we're either traitors or conspiracy nuts.


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## Ralph Rotten

1) It's not a conspiracy. 100,000 dead Americans confirms that.
2) Wear your fucking mask!
3) Keep your distance from other people outside of your home & work bubbles.
4) Stop listening to anything Donald Trump spouts. Even twitter has branded him a liar.
5) Do what Fauci says!

If you disagree with any of these points then please let me know so I can block you.
I don't waste my time talking to morons.


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## Olly Buckle

Ralph Rotten said:


> 1) It's not a conspiracy. 100,000 dead Americans confirms that.
> 2) Wear your fucking mask!
> 3) Keep your distance from other people outside of your home & work bubbles.
> 4) Stop listening to anything Donald Trump spouts. Even twitter has branded him a liar.
> 5) Do what Fauci says!
> 
> If you disagree with any of these points then please let me know so I can block you.
> I don't waste my time talking to morons.



No disagreement, but a couple of questions. Why use the swear word in no. 2 ? Surely the exclamation mark is sufficient? And who is Fauci? What does he say and what makes him trustworthy?


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## Ralph Rotten

Olly Buckle said:


> No disagreement, but a couple of questions. Why use the swear word in no. 2 ? Surely the exclamation mark is sufficient? And who is Fauci? What does he say and what makes him trustworthy?




Actually the exclamation mark follows the profanity.
It'd look funny to swear and NOT have an exclamation.
It'd be like tepid cussing.
Who does that?

Doctor Fauci has been the director of the Institute for Infectious Diseases since *1984*. He is considered to be one of the foremost experts in the world on infectious diseases.
...and he IS NOT a Trump minion.


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## Ralph Rotten

But in all seriousness, worldwide we have just shy of 400,000 dead from C19, and even as we relax the lockdown our numbers are spiking. 

Yet every day I go out into the world and see idiots, morons, and dipshits walking around without a mask on.
Why? Because our leader intentionally muddied the water.


I don't know which bothers me more: The maskless idiots, or listening to people complain about how bored they are during quarantine. Being essential personnel, I have been out in the hot zone every day. I work all day, then come home and sub-quarantine from my family. I am tired of this and wish it were done....but it's not because of the millions of idiots who think they are smarter than Fauci and refuse to wear a mask...thereby prolonging the epidemic.


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## RWK

Biro said:


> I suppose you have to decide the meaning of 'minion'.
> 
> According to Wiki he is one of the lead members of the Trump administrations Whitehouse Coraonavirus Taskforce.  An employee of sorts?



More political appointee. And in this specific case, a long-term supporter and confidante.


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## epimetheus

Biro said:


> To be honest to someone with my terribly short attention span it doesn't make the slightest difference whose conspiracy it is and who it kills, because I lose interest extremely quickly.
> 
> As long as it doesn't kill or affect me and mine is all I really care about.  But at least I am honest.
> 
> What I have come to realise in life is unless there is a revolution little Joe Publics like me can do sod all about the goings on in the world so life is much to short giving a f**k about it all.  So it's best to just to take the piss out of all and everything because at least you can have a laugh.
> 
> Moving swiftly on...........Whose turn is it to get the beer in?:champagne:



I appreciate your candour. I can appreciate that there are political machinations beyond what we will ever know about, but can i ask about the appeal of going straight for the conspiracy theories? 

Take Covid 19 - there are any number of conspiracy theories, most of which are mutually exclusive so we know with certainty some of them are wrong. But if you're not going to dig deeply into the evidence (i mean beyond blog posts and wikipedia) why would you skip over the most simple theories - that it's a virus which evolved to infect humans. We have plenty of evidence for evolution and we have plenty of historical data to suggest this has happened frequently - and before any of the global institutions that supposedly caused this pandemic even existed.


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## Olly Buckle

epimetheus said:


> Take Covid 19 - there are any number of conspiracy theories, most of which are mutually exclusive so we know with certainty some of them are wrong. But if you're not going to dig deeply into the evidence (i mean beyond blog posts and wikipedia) why would you skip over the most simple theories - that it's a virus which evolved to infect humans. We have plenty of evidence for evolution and we have plenty of historical data to suggest this has happened frequently - and before any of the global institutions that supposedly caused this pandemic even existed.



Because it is so simple and logical. No laughs in it, no interesting blaming or finger pointing, no political points to be made. Alright, it could well be true, Occam's razor and all that, but where is the fun? It doesn't matter which theory we adopt, it won't make a blind bit of difference to the virus or the rich and powerful, so why not enjoy ourselves?

It was developed by the people who make PPE, but because of their contacts with hospitals they were the first to catch it, which is why we are short of the stuff now.

See, an little exercise for the imagination.


----------



## RWK

Biro said:


> But until there is an eye witness or undistputable evidence then there are two boxes.  The ones containing the possibles and the box containing the non believable's.



The interesting thing about conspiracies is that they take on a life of their own. People become invested in their pet theory. And should the truth come out on a mature conspiracy, a significant part of the interested parties will simply refuse to believe it, and incorporate the event into their ongoing theory.

A conspiracy theory, IMO, is a means to an end, not a search for the truth. It comforts, it neutralizes a threat.

Take COVID-19: it is a pandemic, a novel disease. There is no vaccine, nor it one likely for years to come. The experts cannot agree upon a single treatment strategy. 

But 'they' tell you that if you wear a mask, clean your hands, and stay 6' apart, you'll be OK. And people cling to that. It makes the world make sense again. Sure, there's a disease that came out of nowhere and is killing complete strangers all over the globe, but there's a magic formula that will stop it in its tracks.

Conspiracy theories are a hedge against fear; they bring order back to the world. They deny that civilization is an incredibly fragile mesh of imperfect systems operating one step ahead of disaster, and instead focuses on the idea that events happened because they were planned.It is much easier to live in a world whee malignant forces cause events, than one where terrible things happen for no core reason.

Taken to the next step of belief, a conspiracy theory empowers: you're not some pointless wanker who doesn't matter to your government or the economic powers-that-be or 99.99999999% of the population, you're one of the ones who really KNOWS whats going on.

Conspiracy theories are beautiful; they are a direct, living link back to the distant days when oral traditions were the foundation of shared culture. They are the foundation of our writer's trade, and they are proof that Humans are not as faceless a mob as they so often appear.


----------



## Ralph Rotten

Biro said:


> I suppose you have to decide the meaning of 'minion'.
> 
> According to Wiki he is one of the lead members of the Trump administrations Whitehouse Coraonavirus Taskforce.  An employee of sorts?




WTF?

Let me repeat my earlier statement for those with poor reading comprehension:
Fauci has been the *Director *of the Institute of Infectious Diseases since *1984*.
No, not an employee of the institute...*Director*.
He has been offered his boss's job (director if the NIH) 5 times, and declined it every time.

He was *not *appointed by Trump...in 1984 Trump was still busy spending his Daddy's money.


----------



## Ralph Rotten

RWK said:


> More political appointee. And in this specific case, a long-term supporter and confidante.




WTF? Long time supporter? Get out of here with that BS. Trump only became a thing 4 years ago. In fact, Trump has only been a republican for the last 15 years...so how can Fauci be a *long-time* supporter?  As for *confidant*, that is just a stupid statement. Fauci tolerates Trump, no more.


----------



## RWK

OK, moving on, it looks like it's Brazil's turn in the barrel. The virus is running hot down there.


----------



## Terry D

Biro said:


> Yeah was reading that earlier.
> 
> I'll give you something else to ponder with all this a perhaps somebody can link it all together.
> 
> We have had dryish weather for about 2 months and there are billions of wild flowers in bloom.  But we have ZERO Bees or Flies and I mean ZERO!.
> 
> The only Flies around are pesky tiny midges but there is nowt else.



Insect populations of virtually all species world-wide are collapsing at an frightening rate. Studies show 40% to 70% fewer insects than just 20 years ago. Great for picnics, bad for the food chain.


----------



## Olly Buckle

They keep talking about 'Track and trace', and a new app that will become available 'shortly' and is being trialled in the isle of Wight. It seems nothing the UK govt. has promised has actually worked out as promised, one wonders why the government is trying to set up its own app when there are tried and tested systems available? Could it possibly be because they wish to have the information available to them for other purposes? Colour me cynical, but I am damned if I will download it, I would rather go back to my little old Nokia.


----------



## RWK

Olly Buckle said:


> They keep talking about 'Track and trace', and a new app that will become available 'shortly' and is being trialled in the isle of Wight. It seems nothing the UK govt. has promised has actually worked out as promised, one wonders why the government is trying to set up its own app when there are tried and tested systems available? Could it possibly be because they wish to have the information available to them for other purposes? Colour me cynical, but I am damned if I will download it, I would rather go back to my little old Nokia.



It's not the phone, it is the service provider that matters.


----------



## Olly Buckle

RWK said:


> It's not the phone, it is the service provider that matters.



No, the UK government is intending to ask people to download an app which will allow them to track the user's movements, nothing to do with the service provider in this case. It does, however, require a smart phone, my old Nokia is as dumb as a politician.


----------



## RWK

Olly Buckle said:


> No, the UK government is intending to ask people to download an app which will allow them to track the user's movements, nothing to do with the service provider in this case. It does, however, require a smart phone, my old Nokia is as dumb as a politician.



No, what I meant is that if you want to track people, all you need is the service provider. A cell phone, no matter what style or age, is in regular communication with relay infrastructure. We used it a lot before I retired. We just needed a subpoena or court order; the Feds don't even need that, I'm told.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Biro said:


> Probably really bad for the food chain.  I also notice this year hardly any Swallows or similar birds which rely on flying insects for food.
> 
> I would have thought the lack of traffic and all transport at this time would have bought a boom in flying insects as billions of them wouldn't be killed by vehicles etc.  But the opposite is happening so far.  Just midges and dung flies.
> 
> Is it related to the virus?  Mmmmmmmm.  :concern:



Not the covid virus, the human virus, and its invention of neonicitinoids; nicotine related insecticides that farmers have been using big time.


----------



## RWK

Olly Buckle said:


> Not the covid virus, the human virus, and its invention of neonicitinoids; nicotine related insecticides that farmers have been using big time.



You don't feed seven billion plus people with hand-sown seed.

The topsoil is playing out across the world; there's less farmland today than when you were born, and what there is, is more tired. 

Without advanced pesticides, fertilizers, and machinery, we would have to stop feeding, well, you. And anyone else that wasn't vital to the system. 

As the population continues to rise with each year, so must food production.


----------



## RWK

Biro said:


> What about the Amazon and other rain forests.  They are clearing them for crops as fast as you can speak.



More ranching than crop-growing.

But the Sahara, Gobi, and other deserts are growing fast, helped along by the east African practices of goat raising, which is denuding vast regions as well. Not to mention the ecological nightmare that is China.

With growing shortages of water caused by heavily urbanized areas in First World nations, you're seeing greater productivity issues there.

Then add in declining food production from sea fishing (a major source of Third World protein). 

There will be eight billion people soon. And some of the hungry countries are getting, or have, nukes.


----------



## dither

Biro said:


> You must be a great guy at parties:lol:
> 
> Actually I am in agreement and because this goes way back when I was a young teen.  One night I stopped up late to watch a film being it's first time on television in those days.  It was a film of ecological disaster of which I had learnt a little about around that time.  It had some well known actors in it as well.
> 
> The film was based on a book written way back in 1956 called 'The Death Of Grass' by John Christopher.  The film was a balls up even though it was probably the first ever disaster type movie.
> 
> I always thought this was just around the corner and it has never left me to this day.
> 
> We will see.



RWK is just telling it how it is imo.

Oh dear, I'm still having to bite my tongue here. Maybe I really should apply for entry to the inferno, if only to get things off my chest.


----------



## dither

Not you Biro, the subject matter in RKW's post. Water shortages, heavily urbanized areas etc.

It gnaws at a pet cause of mine. Could use RKW's post as a platform.


----------



## dither

Yeah well, it IS very political so I say nothing.


----------



## River Rose

dither said:


> RWK is just telling it how it is imo.
> 
> Oh dear, I'm still having to bite my tongue here. Maybe I really should apply for entry to the inferno, if only to get things off my chest.



Getting things off your chest is better than keeping things in your chest. 
Creates congestion...wink wink


----------



## dither

Rose, you have me biting my tongue again.layful:


----------



## Olly Buckle

Biting your tongue, or simply dithering ?


----------



## dither

Biting my tongue I hope. I really need to stay silent on this one.


----------



## RWK

Well, the Chinese claim that the first human trials of a vaccine look promising, but given their track record for only saying happy news, that could mean literally anything.

Meanwhile the Washington Post says it may become a permanent feature from now on, vaccine or not. The logistics of deploying a vaccine, the anti-vaxxer kooks...it would be interesting, assuming a vaccine ever shows up.


----------



## River Rose

I did not read all the replies on this. Also I know my saying this could start a small riot. Or big one.  Depends on who ones asks I guess. 
Myself also my children will not b getting the vaccine when one is available. It sickens me what is put in a vaccine when you read the ingredients. I sign waivers so my children do not have to receive required vaccines that are state mandated.
I am a holistic healer. A Reiki Master/Teacher. 
I would rather my children build up their own bodies natural anti body’s. 
That is not saying that if my children get sick I am anti traditional doctors or antibiotics when needed. I just work closely w their healthcare providers so they are not over medicated. 
Before I am attacked for my stance. Know that I do have a daughter w a heart condition since birth. Left ventricle pulmonary stenosis. She has a pediatric cardiologist whom she seems on a regular basis. I am not adverse to modern medicine 
Release the Cracken


----------



## dither

Rose, I can't say that I agree with you on that but I won't pick a fight with you either. I find that a lot of people are horrified by a strongly held view that I have and so I strive for tolerance. Always happy to discuss, exchange views but that's it.


----------



## dither

Biro said:


> Yes but you have a strongly held view because of what you believe.  But others may have same.  So can you be tolerant of theirs?



Yes, absolutely. I'm all for a frank exchange of views. 

eg. You believe x,y and z etc.
Okay, it's cool.
I don't agree.

Now I'll go away and consider what you've said because, let's face it, I could be wrong.
But, when all the votes are in, if I can't see your view, deal with it. 
Let's agree to differ.

DO NOT try to alter my view.
If you think I'm talking absolute tosh, and you might, my problem. 
Now let it go.


----------



## Amnesiac

Alien: "Give me one reason why I shouldn't vaporize the entire human race."

Me: "Ah... Um... Yeah, maybe I'm not the one to ask."


----------



## Terry D

RWK said:


> You don't feed seven billion plus people with hand-sown seed.
> 
> The topsoil is playing out across the world; there's less farmland today than when you were born, and what there is, is more tired.
> 
> Without advanced pesticides, fertilizers, and machinery, we would have to stop feeding, well, you. And anyone else that wasn't vital to the system.
> 
> As the population continues to rise with each year, so must food production.



Actually food production has outpaced population growth in the last 50 years or so. According to The National Geographic, in 1961 there were 2,253 calories available per person on Earth. In 2017 that number was 2,853. Of course those calories aren't equally distributed among the Earth's population, but the food is there due to advances in seed yields, nitrogen based fertilizers, and increased irrigation. Traditional farming methods need to change (and are changing) to meet the needs of a growing population, but we can't allow the numbers of insects to continue to collapse. One of every three bites of food you take are reliant on insect pollinators. 

Entomologists universally agree on the loss of insect numbers, but they haven't yet reached a consensus on the reasons. It's probably a combination of factors -- as always; pesticides, climate change, and habitat loss are the most likely culprits.


----------



## dither

Biro said:


> I try to have an open mind.  Probably because there is nothing in there to stop anything.
> 
> I have found that arguing about politics, religion and such is more akin to football supporters.  They all think their team is the best.  But when you examine the facts it is glaringly obvious they their team certainly isn't the best.  But there is no way they will accept those facts so you may as well not talk about those subjects with them.
> 
> Trouble is when you refuse to accept 'anybodies' point of view they all hate you even more and spout even more venom because you either will not argue or accept.
> 
> Regards the world and what RWK said earlier.
> 
> The film I watched way back as a teen really got to me because I was really into all that environmental, pollution and over population stuff back then.  Thing is that was a long long time ago and nothing has changed.  In fact it has got much much worse and non of it has gone in the direction of saving the planet.
> 
> But what makes it worse now is back then it was all down to business and money.  Capitalism or so it was. The first world and the third world.
> 
> Now to add to that you have the political mindset which say we should all be the same and should go anywhere, do anything and have anything.
> 
> The planet simply hasn't got a chance.
> 
> Perhaps the virus is a wake up call.  But I can't see anybody taking any notice unless it kicks their door in and spoils their day.
> 
> Look after you and yours is your only option.



Biro,

if someone challenges a belief of mine I will accept their opinion and make every effort to see their side because, like I said, I might be wrong, and I'm willing to discuss, but at the end of the day, if I can't agree , I won't. End of. Some people just cannot accept a difference of opinion and that's a shame.


----------



## hvysmker

Biro said:


> The planet simply hasn't got a chance.
> 
> Perhaps the virus is a wake up call.  But I can't see anybody taking any notice unless it kicks their door in and spoils their day.
> 
> Look after you and yours is your only option.



  	 	 	 	   Has anyone considered that the Supreme Being might have noticed how humanity has been altering His devine plan for this planet?  How our over-breeding has effected other of His cherished and loved creatures. His favorite cuddly bunnys and blessed tigers are at risk. Then he might notice His carefully planned planetary features eradicated and made useless by radiation and human misuse.

This virus may be His first step in a cleansing process of slowing down or lessening human damage to HIS world, HIS creation. *Sob!*, *Blubber!*


----------



## dither

Biro said:


> But where you live?  Liverpool or Everton.....Protestant or Catholic.....Labour or Tory.



But why must people fight over such trivia?
Although it's not, trivia, is it?
It can be the difference between life and death.
I mean football? REALLY?
Religion? Now that really is a hottie.
Politics?:dejection:

Just excuses for confrontation.


----------



## Gofa

I love the guys that talk of the supreme galactic blue avian race that is coming to save us all

if they turn up its going to be an oh shit moment

Big blue chickens beaming down from their spaceship interrupting us While we are eating an omelette Or better cracking the top of a boiled egg.


----------



## Gofa

Oh PS

This virus may be His first step in a cleansing process of slowing down or lessening human damage to HIS world, HIS creation. *Sob!*, *Blubber!*

hyspv rsvp close enough with out checking

HIS ?  Trust me God has a sense of humour and Im sure could well be a Woman and Is prepared to periodically change Her mind so oh be careful with the Gender assumption


----------



## Olly Buckle

This started with Rose saying she wouldn't be vaccinated or have her children vaccinated and expecting a load of abuse for it. Now, I am strongly in favour of vaccination, it has stopped diseases like smallpox and polio from causing huge amounts of misery and pain, but on the other hand if there are occasional individuals like Rose who have a strong personal objection I can live with that. I would not be happy about someone proselytising such views. The thing is that so long as a certain proportion of the population are not passing the disease on it can not maintain itself and there is room for the people with medical reasons for not getting vaccinated and the occasional objector because they are unlikely to have it passed to them or come into contact with susceptible people. If, on average, each person with the disease passes it on to less than one other it will die out.

BTW Interesting aside, mankind has wiped out quite a number of other species, probably far more than we know, but smallpox is the first time another species has been wiped out deliberately.


----------



## RWK

The thing to remember about this virus is that it will have no effect upon the growth of the world population.

The majority of who it's killing off are people with impaired or weaker systems, not breeders.

It took two World Wars, a vicious civil war, two smaller wars, and Stalin's endless genocidal actions within forty-odd years to significantly impact Russia's population growth. 

The vast majority of people infected recover with little or no medical attention. If needed, society could simply power on through without lasting effects, because the death toll would be too low to impact population growth, and the dead would be concentrated among the least productive and most expensive members of society.

AIDs killed 700,000 people in the USA to date, around 13,000 a year. And as the movie noted, the band played on. 

67,000 deaths per year in the USA from the opioid crisis. Over 30,000 from motor accidents. 

This virus is new. When it stops being new, it will simply be factored into modern life.


----------



## Gofa

Yes Biro heard the same 

I thought God had a booming voice and a white beard..........could have been the Mrs mother.......You may have a point Gofa.

imagine my Nana long white hair on throne palm on cheek white hair caught between face and palm   Going to look like a beard 
and then there  Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom    Its pretty obvious those celibate priest could just be fearful  of women  And thats why they seem to be a bit mean to them 

the X files  the truth is out there  Biro


----------



## Foxee

And then there are new threats that loom...
Korean Flamethrower Squirrels Have Reached the US


----------



## Gofa

already i want two 

I see some problems but petrol is easy to access

but can you get replacement squirrels 

and do they have to be Korean or will any squirrel do


----------



## Foxee

They're too new, Gofa, I don't know all the squirrel rules. Finding that out might be as complex as figuring out the whole truth of everything that's happened with Covid-19.

One things for sure, it can't beat these squirrels.


----------



## Gofa

You could put them in your linen cupboard 
stop things getting damp combat mould

in your fridge as door opening light
refrigerated im sure your squirrels will last longer too


----------



## Foxee

Gofa, I think there may be a limit on how many squirrels you can get so I suggest you don't wait and you definitely refrigerate them.

Good luck.


----------



## Gofa

I have always been apprehensive as i consider next steps when someone says "best of luck with that"


----------



## Olly Buckle

The squirrel garden waste incinerator.
The squirrel fired bar b q
The squirrel hot air balloon
Squirrel jet ignition on runways
The mini-squirrel cigarette lighter

So many possibilities, God those Koreans are clever, and they controlled covid.

(See how I cleverly got the thread back on track there?)


----------



## Tryon

I'm not worried about COVID-19.  Not even a little bit.  When I discovered America, tuberculosis and smallpox were still around for chrissakes!  I was forever picking things up off the ground.  My earliest memories are of my mother screaming, "Don't put that in your mouth!"  Of course, that was the first thing I did.  We've had viruses, bacteria, germs, just pathogens of every type around forever and I never worried.  Sure, I wash my fruit and vegetables from the grocery store, but who hasn't grabbed some grapes before moving on to the bread aisle.  And we're still here!  

I have more thoughts on this but I gotta go.  Our chapter of the John Birch Society is meeting and I'm in charge of refreshments this week.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Hi Tyron, welcome to the forum. There is a difference between being worried by something and using a reasonable degree of caution. I think your comments about food actually say it pretty well. One of my favourite quotes is from Marcus Aurelius, a Roman Emperor who fought the Germans and died fairly young, probably from T.B. He said "One should not fear death. Death is a natural event, and only fools and children are scared of natural events." Some thing you don't seek, but they are not going to rule your life either  

Look forward to you getting your first ten posts and moving on to full membership when you can post in the workshops and we can see some of your writing.


----------



## RWK

Olly Buckle said:


> Hi Tyron, welcome to the forum. There is a difference between being worried by something and using a reasonable degree of caution. I think your comments about food actually say it pretty well. One of my favourite quotes is from Marcus Aurelius, a Roman Emperor who fought the Germans and died fairly young, probably from T.B. He said "One should not fear death. Death is a natural event, and only fools and children are scared of natural events." Some thing you don't seek, but they are not going to rule your life either
> 
> Look forward to you getting your first ten posts and moving on to full membership when you can post in the workshops and we can see some of your writing.



The breakdown occurs at the definition of 'reasonable'.


----------



## Olly Buckle

RWK said:


> The breakdown occurs at the definition of 'reasonable'.



Not so much a breakdown as a variable. For example, my granddaughter who is a fit healthy three year old, will return to nursery today, albeit with reduced numbers and some distancing. I, who have a condition that involves me taking immunosuppressants and am seventy five, am maintaining isolation. 'Reasonable' should be defined as taking circumstances into account and making an assessment, not as one size suits all.


----------



## Amnesiac

A quick thought on God and gender: What use would a purely spiritual being have for gender? It's not going to reproduce, nor does It have any reason to excrete waste. God is God. Alpha, Omega, and All That Is.


----------



## dither

Biro said:


> Well God was a man or of male gender or so it is written :lemo: It was not written that God was a Goddess of feminine gender.O
> 
> God had a son.  He was called Jesus.  He had this son not with a Goddess but with a Carpenters wife called Mary :couple_inlove:  She of course was a virgin :concern: She claimed she was impregnated by a ghost :smiley_simmons:  She then gave birth to the son of God the almighty in a stable.
> 
> Of course.  It just makes so much sense.
> 
> What's the problem?



Best not to go there imo.


----------



## Ralph Rotten

Biro said:


> OK Ralph I think we get your message..........You don't like the President.




No Biro, I am objecting to the attempt to inject fake news into a conversation I am a part of.
Spread that manure elsewhere.


----------



## Xander416

Ralph Rotten said:


> No Biro, I am objecting to the attempt to inject fake news into a conversation I am a part of.
> Spread that manure elsewhere.


With respect, I don't think you being part of a conversation dictates what others can and can't bring to it. You always have the option of no longer taking part if it goes in a direction you don't care for.


----------



## Olly Buckle

I am told that they have downloaded the track and trace app into everybody's phone. I don't know quite what that means as they then told me it would be in 'settings' rather than apps.
Thing is I am also told that there has been some malicious use of this, with people reporting themselves ill and then using it to get people confined in isolation for two weeks. The government dismissed it as a minor nuisance, how much of a minor nuisance is what amounts to a fortnight's false imprisonment on threat of a £1,000 fine? Like I said before I am having nothing to do with this, it stinks to my mind, but then I am also pretty safe because I am not having contact with anyone.  Hmmm.


----------



## Ralph Rotten

I am more focused on simply not catching the virus.
I never thought my army NBC training would have any civilian application, but apparently I was quite wrong.
I spend my days in MOPP1, and my nights sub-quarantined.

Hopefully the Oxford vaccine will be ready soon.


----------



## Matchu

.........


----------



## Moose.H

I generally shower after I meet politicians,,,,,,, However I am living with an elderly mother I do the shopping and return and clean off the goods with a clorine bath and then have a shower. 





PiP said:


> Covid can be spread in a number of ways
> 
> REF CDC.Gov
> 
> 
> 
> Because of the way it spreads, when I go shopping, pharmacy or indeed anywhere where I am in contact with people, I remove all my clothes before entering the house and immediately take a hot shower. The clothes are then washed. I hand wash the cotton masks in water over 60C.
> 
> How many of you shower after contact with people?
> 
> How long does the virus remain on surfaces - there are mixed messages
> https://www.livescience.com/how-long-coronavirus-last-surfaces.html
> 
> It can spread so easily that when they lift the lockdown restrictions I am convinced we will see a second wave of infections
> 
> This is an interesting source of information
> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/


----------



## Foxee

Well, our water was out so instead of showering when I get back I immediately remove all my clothes and go walk around in the yard. It's been pretty sunny so I figure the vitamin D and the radiation will help. The neighbors are talking, though.


----------



## clark

​Foxee --We wanna talk! We wanna talk! How could you do that online? Hmm.


----------



## clark

I wash my hand frequently and when I'm out avoid people getting 'chummy' about physical distance, but that's about it. This virus seems able to survive on just about any surface, but I'm not prepared to go to Carole's extremes, however wise. I suspect she doesn't go 'out' too much. My lifestyle is such that when I have an 'out' day, I'm in and out of the house all day like a yo-yo. Her level of caution would drive me crazy.


----------



## Terry D

Foxee said:


> Well, our water was out so instead of showering when I get back I immediately remove all my clothes and go walk around in the yard. It's been pretty sunny so I figure the vitamin D and the radiation will help. The neighbors are talking, though.



Without pictures it never happened... I'm just sayin'...


----------



## PiP

clark said:


> I wash my hand frequently and when I'm out avoid people getting 'chummy' about physical distance, but that's about it. This virus seems able to survive on just about any surface, but I'm not prepared to go to Carole's extremes, however wise. I suspect she doesn't go 'out' too much. My lifestyle is such that when I have an 'out' day, I'm in and out of the house all day like a yo-yo. Her level of caution would drive me crazy.



Apart from last week which was the shopping/doctors week from hell, we only shop once a week.  If we just go out for a coffee or to visit friends, no, of course, we don't go to those extremes  It's a matter of balance. I think we each do what we need to do to adjust to the situation.


----------



## Foxee

Well, gee, nobody got a picture of me but here's one of my social distance service animal, does that count?


----------



## Olly Buckle

Cant seem to copy it , a facebook post.

Things that cause spikes in covid nineteen
Protesting the systematic abuse of black people

Things that do not cause spikes in covid nineteen
Reopening schools
Congregating on crowded beaches
VE day celebrations
The delightful market town of Barnard Castle


----------



## Olly Buckle

A breakdown of deaths from covid. Most likely to die are Hindu men, followed by Sikh men and so on all the way down to least likely, women without any religion. Seems to support my thesis, 'There is no God'.

Is it just my perception living in a vegetarian household? It seems that I keep seeing reports of outbreaks centered on slaughter houses and meat processing plants.


----------



## SueC

Olly Buckle said:


> Cant seem to copy it , a facebook post.
> 
> Things that cause spikes in covid nineteen
> Protesting the systematic abuse of black people
> 
> Things that do not cause spikes in covid nineteen
> Reopening schools
> Congregating on crowded beaches
> VE day celebrations
> The delightful market town of Barnard Castle



Olly, that brings up the point that we are not "universal" in our approach to protection from Covid-19. And, to me, therein lies the problem. People continue to look at any restrictions from government to shop owners, as "punishment" rather than put in place because people just won't do it on their own and it works!

Coming up is the tricky part - I have a knitting group that usually meets in the library in our building. The library has been closed now for months, as there was no staff to sanitize after each meeting, after each use. So now it's open - how clean can it be after a week's worth of gatherings? Should we all be carrying sanitizing wipes where ere we go? I think the staying-home part is going to continue for some time - at least for me.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Possibly because in some cases it is punishment? The BLM protest organisers got injunctions slapped on them, and quite a few people were given on the spot fines for breaking the rules, the police decided not to clear the crowded beaches, or do anything much about it, VE celebrations went ahead at war memorials. The government's chief advisor went for a day out at Barnard Castle, when asked about it he said he was needed in London and was not sure if his eyesight was up to driving, so went for a sixty mile round drive to see if it was. What! This man helps originate advice from the Government and he thinks it appropriate to drive sixty miles when he is unsure of his eyesight? I would rather think it was a poor, spur of the moment excuse than any sort of reality. I wouldn't take advice from an idiot who did that sort of thing. Sorry, the references are a bit UK oriented.
Edit, Oh, and schools are going back because 'Parents need to get back to work'.

The knitting group raises questions in my mind. How many people attend? Do you have sufficient space for good social distancing? How long does it go on for, even six foot social distancing is regarded as risky if it is for more than a quarter of an hour. What time of day is it? If you are the first group in the morning the virus is short lived enough on most surfaces that it would probably be fairly clean. How many people in the group? Not only is the chance of one being infected increased if there are more people, but also the chance of two or more people being infected, which would increase the viral load. How often do you meet? Bearing in mind the incubation period seems to be about two weeks I would be a lot happier with once a month than once a week.
Given that lot I reckon you are probably right, stay home. Have you considered a virtual group for the moment? The missus works at the library, which is shut, but regularly gets together with her colleagues on line. I have set up a whatsapp group on my phone, a virtual garden party for all my friends. It is good to stay in touch, and just to chat.


----------



## SueC

The knitting group is very small, but so is the library. We usually sit at a large table, but I don't think there is room enough for the 6-foot separation. PLUS, as I said before, not everyone feels the need to comply with the rules, so even if there is just one person who doesn't respect the 6-feet, it could lead to chaos. I think we'll wait a bit more. Or at least I will. Thanks for your input Olly.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Needs to be people you trust, Sue. The Missus was offered work at a call center following up vulnerable people, as she said, 'If it were just with the people I work with normally I would go for it, they have sensible precautions there, but I don't know the other people working there. They may be off socialising with all sorts out of hours for all I know.' It is not just what they do there. Some people think it doesn't matter because they are young and fit and unlikely to suffer even if they catch it, that may be true, but it is bloody selfish not to give a damn about who you might pass it on to. It is probably a death sentence to anyone who has had a transplant for example. It is not just the old and economically unproductive, (How vile is that attitude?) it's people we have made a huge investment in as well.

When this all kicked off the British PM went on about facing the fact that we would lose some loved ones and cited 'herd immunity' as something to aim for. A concept that actually drew laughter from an epidemiologist asked about it on TV.
The New Zealand PM's response was 'Okay, it's hard, but there will be no unnecessary deaths on my watch.', first country to eradicate it, very low death rate.


----------



## Periander

Olly Buckle said:


> Possibly because in some cases it is punishment? The BLM protest organisers got injunctions slapped on them, and quite a few people were given on the spot fines for breaking the rules, the police decided not to clear the crowded beaches, or do anything much about it, VE celebrations went ahead at war memorials.



This has been a legitimate concern with the protests that have been going on in the USA.  Experts are worried that they could cause a surge in the next few weeks or couple of months.

I live in an outlying suburb of St. Louis and actively participated in three different protests.  I'd say about half of the people marching wore masks.  Some were feebly trying to social distance but this is near impossible when you're marching in a crowd of several hundred to over a thousand people.  Also, everybody was shouting and chanting, which of course is a great way to spread Covid-19.  And not to mention the hand-to-hand exchange of water bottles that was going on.

Was it worth the risk?  I suppose that all depends on your point of view.


----------



## Olly Buckle

BTW. Leeds city council is talking about permanently closing libraries and museums, partly covid, partly funding stretched by covid.


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## Irwin

Periander said:


> Was it worth the risk?  I suppose that all depends on your point of view.



I don't understand that "point of view" since it's an unnecessary risk. They can protest just as effectively while wearing facemasks.


----------



## SueC

Irwin said:


> I don't understand that "point of view" since it's an unnecessary risk. They can protest just as effectively while wearing facemasks.



I agree with you Irwin from Colorado 

I have a lot of trouble with people who don't see the value of wearing a mask. There was one neighbor here who told me a couple of weeks ago that the whole thing was media hype (who does that sound like? Sorry ) and he actually got mad at me when I responded with - "People are dying." But that is my point. There might be some who recognize the danger, but because they simply don't care, or have another priority, they will refuse to comply. And then of course there are those who have issues with authority figures. Yikes. This thing could go on forever. A new normal - no one hugs, we all wear masks and stop smiling at people we see (cause no one can tell with a mask on, if you are smiling, so why bother?) Ugh.


----------



## SueC

Olly Buckle said:


> Needs to be people you trust, Sue. The Missus was offered work at a call center following up vulnerable people, as she said, 'If it were just with the people I work with normally I would go for it, they have sensible precautions there, but I don't know the other people working there. They may be off socialising with all sorts out of hours for all I know.' It is not just what they do there. Some people think it doesn't matter because they are young and fit and unlikely to suffer even if they catch it, that may be true, but it is bloody selfish not to give a damn about who you might pass it on to. It is probably a death sentence to anyone who has had a transplant for example. It is not just the old and economically unproductive, (How vile is that attitude?) it's people we have made a huge investment in as well.



Olly, your wife has the same mind set I do. I haven't seen a lot of caution in this building from the beginning, so the trust really isn't there at all. I think your wife and I would get along.


----------



## Periander

Irwin said:


> I don't understand that "point of view" since it's an unnecessary risk. They can protest just as effectively while wearing facemasks.



Oh, I definitely agree.  I was one of the people wearing a mask.


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## Olly Buckle

SueC said:


> I agree with you Irwin from Colorado
> 
> I have a lot of trouble with people who don't see the value of wearing a mask. There was one neighbor here who told me a couple of weeks ago that the whole thing was media hype (who does that sound like? Sorry ) and he actually got mad at me when I responded with - "People are dying." But that is my point. There might be some who recognize the danger, but because they simply don't care, or have another priority, they will refuse to comply. And then of course there are those who have issues with authority figures. Yikes. This thing could go on forever. A new normal - no one hugs, we all wear masks and stop smiling at people we see (cause no one can tell with a mask on, if you are smiling, so why bother?) Ugh.



They will get the lip synching right on Top of the Pops though. Always a silver lining


----------



## Olly Buckle

cxriiiks said:


> Animals are very perceptive I think. Who knows what undercurrents abound with this C19 going on.



Sounds like a good short story cue to me


----------



## Olly Buckle

Regarding the above, I saw a news clip with a woman training dogs to detect cv19 infections, she already does it with cancer.

Our government really is the pits, they are making a huge deal out of giving 'Every man woman and child' a voucher to cover 50% of the cost of a meal, up to £10. News this morning, the EEC are considering £500 to adults, £250 for children, to be spent with businesses suffering from the situation, so that will include shops and such. When they announced the £10 deal they said 'With participating restaurants" and I wondered who they were, turns out no-one knows yet because they will have to apply. I really can't see independents bothering to apply for something which will get them their money back sometime maybe after much form filling. No, it will be the big chains run by Johnson's mates that get any benefit. So who in their right mind is going to go and risk death for 'Up to' ten pounds off a shit meal?

Have you noticed they have stopped giving numbers of tests now as well, still, when they did they included tests sent out to people at home, whether they got them back or not, so the information was flawed, and when they do have the information we are told they don't pass it on to the relevant health authority in a meaningful time scale.

They really are useless, and when people like Dominic Cummings flout all the rules and then give the most feeble excuses you have ever heard how do they expect any-one else to follow them? I hardly see anyone wearing face masks, not people out and about, people in parliament, people giving interviews, no-one. Okay, so a face mask gives you very little protection from catching the virus, but it has been shown to be very effective in stopping people who already have it from infecting others, but who gives a shit about anyone else? Almost no-one it seems.

One last clap for our wonderful NHS last Thursday on its anniversary  says Boris. "Our" NHS? It was founded in 1948 by a socialist post war government and has been eroded and attacked by every Conservative government since. They are a bunch of mean, incompetent, cheating, lying, b******ds as far as I can see.


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## dither

From what I can make of it, we, they, from the bottom right to the very top, are in it for ourselves, THEMSELVES. Humanity stinks imo. Yes, of course there are exceptions, I'm generalising.  In the meantime, I just dig-in, keep my head down, and try to make me and mine as comfortable as I am able. We're a rotten lot Mr.Buckle, a rotten lot.

By the way, I always have a mask with me when I'm out, I keep my distance from other people, and won't enter a public building without covering my face and nose.


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## Olly Buckle

> By the way, I always have a mask with me when I'm out, I keep my distance from other people, and won't enter a public building without covering my face and nose.



Well done Sir. It is unfortunate that the mask only gives minimal protection to the wearer, the major benefit is that it will prevent the wearer passing on the infection if he is pre-symptomatic or has so few symptoms he doesn't realise he has it. If everybody wore them whenever they were out and about with others they would cut the infection rate so much we could be free of the virus. My missus returned from a holiday in Vietnam just as all this kicked off, she tells me everyone there was always wearing a mask. Partly it is part of the culture, anyone with cold or flu symptoms has worn a mask for some years now, but it works, they had one of the lowest infection rates going and* no* deaths.


----------



## noisebloom

dither said:


> Humanity stinks imo.



Well put! I think this sentiment inspires a lot of my writing. :icon_cheesygrin:


----------



## dither

dither said:


> From what I can make of it, we, they, from the bottom right to the very top, are in it for ourselves, THEMSELVES. Humanity stinks imo. Yes, of course there are exceptions, I'm generalising.  In the meantime, I just dig-in, keep my head down, and try to make me and mine as comfortable as I am able. We're a rotten lot Mr.Buckle, a rotten lot.
> 
> By the way, I always have a mask with me when I'm out, I keep my distance from other people, and won't enter a public building without covering my face and nose.



That SHOULD read " mouth and nose " but you get what I'm saying and yes, my wearing a mask is more of a benefit to others.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Olly Buckle said:


> Regarding the above, I saw a news clip with a woman training dogs to detect cv19 infections, she already does it with cancer.
> 
> Our government really is the pits, they are making a huge deal out of giving 'Every man woman and child' a voucher to cover 50% of the cost of a meal, up to £10. News this morning, the EEC are considering £500 to adults, £250 for children, to be spent with businesses suffering from the situation, so that will include shops and such. When they announced the £10 deal they said 'With participating restaurants" and I wondered who they were, turns out no-one knows yet because they will have to apply. I really can't see independents bothering to apply for something which will get them their money back sometime maybe after much form filling. No, it will be the big chains run by Johnson's mates that get any benefit. So who in their right mind is going to go and risk death for 'Up to' ten pounds off a shit meal?
> .



Well, I wasn't too wrong about that, it is all big chains like Presso, Nandos, Wagamama and Burger King. I wonder how this ties in with the "War against obesity" Johnson has also just announced? It's all fry ups or noodles. For once 'war' might be a good analogy, they tend to be accompanied by starvation. Bit of starvation wouldn't hurt him, fat git. Thinks if he wears baggy shirts and expensive suits badly we won't notice.


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## dither

Un-palatable truths Biro. The NHS is a sick old dog weighed down blood-sucking parasites. We read stories of how suppliers charge such extortionate prices but no-one wants to rock that boat. When it comes to corruption we're no better, or worse, than most. Who wants to donate to such a system? And it's a shame. 

Thoughts of that old Supertramp track, " don't know what you've got......."

Oh dear, seems as though whenever I get into one of these gigs  I see sense rant about a pet grouse of mine coming on, all roads seem to lead to............... well never mind.


----------



## epimetheus

Biro said:


> The NHS treats every body even if they havent paid and just arrived in the country this morning and is leaving as soon as they have had their very expensive health care.
> 
> Some how you do not need many brain cells to work out which system is soon going to be in trouble and the resources will run out unfairly for those who have been paying their money every week.



Health tourism costs the NHS £100 - 300 million annually which, even at the larger estimate, is only a fraction of the estimated £1.3 billion annual loss to corruption: the NHS has far more fundamental issues to contend with than this.


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## dither

A neglected old dog but if treated well it's worth saving, I'd be more than happy to contribute more, in fact, I think we should contribute more, but we can't heal the world. I'm sorry but that's the reality.


----------



## epimetheus

Biro said:


> Both should never happen.  A private company would never treat a free loader.



Private health insurers are also subject to corruption - it's a problem in every healthcare system in the world with a global cost of ~$0.5 trillion (out of $7.4 trillion). That includes both public and private healthcare services. I agree private providers may be more _efficient_ in their spending, but that does not necessarily translate to improved patient outcomes. The best healthcare systems in the world tend to be mixed public/private ventures - and maybe the NHS misses out here, comparing very poorly compared to other European nations, just below Estonian healthcare.


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## Irwin

People hospitalized with covid-19 are going to have huge medical expenses even if they have insurance since deductibles can be several thousand dollars, and if you lost your job and can barely pay your rent, you're screwed. We're already starting to see a rise in homelessness, and this is only the beginning.

A non-shithole country would cover all medical bills for pandemic related treatment.


----------



## Olly Buckle

The concept of denying health care at the point of need is vile. The proposition that it should only be available to those who can afford it or afford insurance to cover it and have had thi foresight to take it out is simply inhuman. We give free health care to people in prison even if they committed the vilest crimes, that is as it should be, no one should fall through that net. I make no complaint about paying for it in my time, I was lucky enough to have good health and a job, why would I object to helping those who were not?

Luckily most NHS doctors don't play by the rules that say 'Not them, their not eligible', if you have something like appendicitis they operate first and leave others to chase the money. I hear stories of people being turned away because they don't have insurance in other countries and think, 'These are not Doctors, they are some sort of medical technocrat.'  It is the equivalent of a minister sending someone off to die of starvation in the snow on Christmas day because they're Muslim. I expect it has happened, but it's wrong.


----------



## Olly Buckle

You are right of course, It is not only the Tories. Tony Blair, the multi millionaire should be on trial for war crimes as well as for heavily privatising the NHS by the back door, it's just that the Tories are who is there doing it now. In terms of now the concept of a socialist party led by a knight of the realm is pretty ludicrous too, but he is not the one in power.

I am retired now and don't pay NI anymore, my voluntary contributions go to Medecins sans frontieres, not that I have the money to give them much, but they seem to have it more right than most.


----------



## dither

Biro said:


> Ok so the burning question which I can never understand is why do the British object to paying a little bit more every week for their national treasure?  Even just £1.00 per week over the year that would be nearly 3.5 billion extra for the NHS.



I read somewhere about the quality of residential care that is available for those who need it in Germany. Apparently a small deduction is made from peoples' earnings, weekly monthly whatever, to finance it. Imagine what a difference a pound a week would make to the standard of care provided in THIS country. A pound, or two even,  a week, a ring-fenced fund for both medical  and residential care. Imagine _that. _But they _must _​get rid of the rot, the bad eggs.


----------



## dither

Good morning Joker.


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## Olly Buckle

Biro said:


> Ok so the burning question which I can never understand is why do the British object to paying a little bit more every week for their national treasure?  Even just £1.00 per week over the year that would be nearly 3.5 billion extra for the NHS.



I think most people wouldn't mind, the clue is in what Dither said about Germany, "A ring fenced fund". Most people think it would probably get subverted to some other more important cause, like Trident submarines, a new yacht for the Queen, a high speed tunnel across London, a paint job for the PM's jet, an aircraft carrier, or extra runways at some airport. They have no faith that their 3.5 billion would go where it was intended. In this country 'Ring fenced' seems to be a word that is bandied about quite frequently but not applied.


----------



## dither

The outlook is bleak imo.


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## Joker

The libertarian in me thinks this a good time to suggest transparency in what our taxes are spent on.


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## Olly Buckle

Joker said:


> The libertarian in me thinks this a good time to suggest transparency in what our taxes are spent on.



I know the answer.

"There is transparency, every department has a budget which is in the public domain. Well no we can't give you a complete breakdown, there are commercial issues and security issues for a start, you have to be realistic. But if you have a specific question ...?"

If you pursue it you will discover the more such bull ****


----------



## Joker

Olly Buckle said:


> I know the answer.
> 
> "There is transparency, every department has a budget which is in the public domain. Well no we can't give you a complete breakdown, there are commercial issues and security issues for a start, you have to be realistic. But if you have a specific question ...?"
> 
> If you pursue it you will discover the more such bull ****



Maybe we don't need as much government then. :icon_cheesygrin:


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## Olly Buckle

Joker said:


> Maybe we don't need as much government then. :icon_cheesygrin:



What makes you think it is done for your benefit?


----------



## Olly Buckle

By the way, regarding covid, remember that? Did you see the news about immunity after infection apparently being transient? They are saying it may make vaccines ineffective and you may catch it more than once.

I could see this getting worse, there are a lot of people who had bad infections who have been left with severe organ damage of all sorts. What if that is cumulative with subsequent infections? I do hope that is no more than one of my nutty ideas. Could make a good story though, with the infection going round like common cold and the population gradually suffering damage to their kidney, liver, lungs, and brain, fighting to eliminate the virus before they all die or go dulalley.


----------



## Theglasshouse

If it mutates I do wonder what they would do? In Russia they put microchips on people who have co-vid. That does seem like they could track you. It also could create in the minds of people a big brother conspiracy theory. Just like Orwell had predicted. Of course maybe they could invent a vaccine. It could on a positive note cure the mutated disease by preventing outbreaks or earlier strains of the virus or mutations. What they decide to do is then in the hands of mental health experts.Creating an antibody is what the vaccine is designed to do. It produces white blood cells with the needed information to track the virus and destroy it. But as long as they fight it quickly. Maybe there will be isolated incidents of the virus mutations. As long as they know who carries the virus. They will in fact do this for blood banks. It's a serious disease.


----------



## SueC

For no reason at all, I found my self watching a documentary on the 1918 flu pandemic last night on PBS. So many of the scenes they depicted were familiar to me due to the current virus pandemic. 

"Scientists, doctors, and health officials could not identify this disease which was striking so fast and so viciously, eluding treatment and defying control. Some victims died within hours of their first symptoms. Others succumbed after a few days; their lungs filled with fluid and they suffocated to death.

It is an oddity of history that the influenza epidemic of 1918 has been overlooked in the teaching of American history. Documentation of the disease is ample, as shown in the records selected from the holdings of the National Archives regional archives. Exhibiting these documents helps the epidemic take its rightful place as a major disaster in world history. "

https://www.archives.gov/exhibits/influenza-epidemic/

They said WWI claimed 16 million lives; the 1918 pandemic claimed 60 million (675,000 Americans).  At the end of last month, the coronavirus had killed over 100,000 US citizens. I am confused by those who say this is all hype. The only thing I can think of is that those who do not believe the media reports, have not had any personal experience with the virus, either by relatives or friends. It is easy to feel removed from the chaos, but I believe it is no less a threat.

The PBS program was very frightening because it was so familiar, 102 years later.


----------



## ppsage

Olly Buckle said:


> By the way, regarding covid, remember that? Did you see the news about immunity after infection apparently being transient? They are saying it may make vaccines ineffective and you may catch it more than once.



Theoretically the transient immunity has to be induced from within the viral genome. Most all the vaccines now headed to trial are protein vaccines which carry only a few epitopes from the entry region of the virus. Very probably they would not contain any coding for countering learned immune responses. So it's still possible a vaccine can provide significant immunity.


----------



## noisebloom

ppsage said:


> So it's still possible a vaccine can provide significant immunity.



Hope so. Ready for this to be over so we can all move on...


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## Olly Buckle

noisebloom said:


> Hope so. Ready for this to be over so we can all move on...



The way for it to be over is for it to be eradicated completely, if it is endemic it can always spike again. We have treatments and vaccines for a number of diseases and we are getting close to eradicating polio, but the only thing we have deliberately wiped from the face of the earth is smallpox. We have done for lots of other things like Tasmanian devils, dodos and passenger pigeons, but they were not deliberate. Two ways of looking at it, we put a bit of effort into it and spent a few years doing it, but it worked so we know we can; or we have only ever managed this once, what's the chance of repeating it?

The way I see it New Zealand has shown it is possible, now we need to scale that up from a couple of islands to four continents. Could such an effort replace the hospitality sector of the economy that has been so hard hit? 

Why are they making mask wearing compulsory only in shops? The only difference I can see between that and any other public building is that some very influential people own shops and might want people to feel safe coming to them to spend their money, but that wouldn't be the reason for deciding a matter of public health policy would it?

Biro is right, recovery times can be very long, and permanent damage is not infrequent, we really can't afford to just live with it.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Biro said:


> Remember the old days Olly.  Isolation hospitals.  You had a cough and the doctor confirmed it, then you were gone and you stayed there until you were at no risk to anyone.
> 
> You never wore other peoples clothes.  You washed all new clothes before wearing them.  Never shared hats.  Never shared cups or drank from the same bottle.  You washed and peeled all fruit and vegetables.  You had a disease at school or work you were sent home.  ..............And a lot more..........Cleanliness next to Godliness.
> 
> Isolation worked.  Cleanliness worked.  Not so long ago in our parents time they had no weapons against disease except what I put above.  It worked.  It allowed them to survive so you lot are here.  Our parents were bought up like this in the 1930's and 40's even the 50's.  If they didn't stick to these rules then they died.
> 
> Its simple really.  Most diseases are parasitic in that they need another host to survive and multiply.  Separate people and you stop that happening.



Antibiotics came along a bit before that, as did vaccines. Yes, it worked, to a degree, I think the common cold is a form of covid infection, the clue to how frequently people got it is in the name, however it did not kill maim or need long term recovery times. Reducing it to endemic from pandemic does not strike me as sufficient in this case. Yes, I am all for giving up hugs and going back to the occasional handshake, and all the rest of it, but as I understand it wearing a face covering slows transmission considerably, not so much protecting the wearer as protecting others from him. Difficult to get some morons to indulge in altruistic behavior without some sort of compulsion.

Yes, I learned all that as I was brought up, a few years ago I read that washing your hands at least six times a day reduced the chances of pulmonary disease by a third and thought 'Oh, I should make an effort with my medical history', then realised with washing them after using the toilet and before I ate I did it more than that anyway, so who are these people who don't? Eugh!


----------



## Olly Buckle

Our ability to read DNA tells us that we probably got lice originally from dogs, that head lice and body lice have managed to separate to the extent of being two species is an indication of how long we have had dogs around us.

Your mum was a bit mistaken, simple washing will not destroy lice, that was why steam laundries and ironed clothes were so popular, the higher temperatures does for them. Body lice are not so common nowadays, but anyone with a small child knows nits, or head lice, are pretty common. Little girls especially sit with their heads together, and Bingo! It used to be that we used nasty insecticides, or shaved their heads, then someone discovered that a heavy dose of hair conditioner makes them lose their grip and they can be combed out, still a trial for everyone.

Your mum's error is a good illustration, people need accurate information and good advice. It is not that they are careless or unwilling, but lack leadership and information. For example my missus has a friend who is scared enough to send her husband for the shopping and wipes everything down with a bleach solution when he gets back with it. The most possible carrier of course is likely to be him rather than the shopping, sending him is a really minimal reduction of risk to her. There are also very few things in the weekly shop that one uses immediately, take it out of the bag, put it in the cupboard, wash your hands and don't touch it again for twenty four hours and the risk is decreased to something close to zero.

What we need is some clear directions, 'Everybody will wear masks in enclosed public places, if they have not got them on they won't get in.' simple and clear, 'You will not congregate in large groups with no social distancing or policemen in riot gear will arrive and disperse you, those that fail to run fast enough will be heavily fined.' clear and simple.

By the way, we noticed earlier that meat packing plants seemed to be a regular source of outbreaks. On investigation it turns out this is because of the drive to make maximum profit from processing food cheaply. The workers are paid shit money and live in shit, overcrowded accommodation. Same reason there has been an outbreak on a farm recently, 76 out of 200workers tested positive. There was an aerial photo, thirty portacabins, so that's six or seven to a cabin not much different from a large caravan, sharing communal showers and toilets. Let's start treating our low paid workers decently, they may not have any voice or influence, but it is actually to everybody's benefit.

Another thing, three of those people have left the farm, including one who tested positive, there was no way to stop them. Isolating if you have symptoms is not compulsory, only advisory. Like I said, some clear laws and positive advice would be good, not 'We are thinking of masks in ten days time, but only in shops.' That sends about as clear a message as a day trip to Barnard Castle.


----------



## dither

We ARE our own worst enemy.


----------



## ppsage

In meat packing plants workers are often shoulder to shoulder. The heavy work causes increased respiration. The high humidity makes respiratory aerosols persist longer. This was covered on TWiV weeks ago.


----------



## Irwin

It's a crazy, sick society in which we live. I try not to leave my property if I can help it.


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## dither

Irwin said:


> It's a crazy, sick society in which we live. I try not to leave my property if I can help it.



Yeah, me to.


----------



## noisebloom

ppsage said:


> In meat packing plants workers are often shoulder to shoulder. The heavy work causes increased respiration. The high humidity makes respiratory aerosols persist longer. This was covered on TWiV weeks ago.



Yeah, this was the reason for at least a couple major outbreaks (each in the thousands) we had in the U.S.


----------



## Olly Buckle

The public of Olly does not buy cheap chicken, Biro. He occasionally eats meat if he's out somewhere, but mainly he's vegi. That means the veg are important so he goes for the best, or TBH Olly's missus usually does. What comes out of the garden costs the price of a packet of seed, oh, and the handle went on my spade went the other week after about twenty years, new spade, £7.95p.

It is not a great year for veg. New garden and lockdown came just as I would have bought seed so a bit restricted by what I had left over at first. Still, a surplus of cucumber and courgette, plenty of herbs, spuds just starting, chard, beetroot galore, ditto broccoli, radish and lettuce, we had a bumper crop of peas and mangetout peas, runner beans and french beans are starting. In a good year it would go through to january and I would still be digging roots like parsnip and swede, and once I get established I plait up onions and we have them all year. Onions alone must just about cover what I spend on seed normally.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Some things are more worth it than others, I only grow a few spuds, earlies do taste a bit better, but they are dirt cheap. Onions are worth it for the flavour, I gave some to a friend last year and he said "They made me cry, a supermarket onion hasn't done that in years."  Olly, the guy who makes his missus cry  Having fresh sage, bay, parsley, thyme, rosemary and oregano is great. Having a white and pink rosemary as well as a blue one and a couple of different mints is a bit of fun.


----------



## Olly Buckle

> Olly why do onions always go rotten. Organic ones are terrible for this.


Too wet or too warm, they need to be left in the ground, in the sun, to ripen until the leaves are completely brown and dry. Then plait them in strings and hang them somewhere cool and dry where the air can circulate a little. My guess is that store bought are picked a little bit early because they will be a little bit heavier, what you said earlier about the farmer maximising profit, he probably sticks them in a cold store if he has to keep them.

Saw Nicola Sturgeon making a sensible sounding speech about the further easing of lockdown in Scotland last night, she should put some Scottish Nationalist candidates up in English constituencies, the combination of an anti Scottish and a socialist vote could do wonders for her.

Not Covid related, but did you see 'Failing Grayling' failed to win the vote for head of the Intelligence and Security committee, two words that don't go with his name. As someone commented "Only he could fail to win a rigged election". I wonder if the Russia report will see the light of day?

BTW Biro you keep referring to my 'favourites', I don't really have any, they are all pretty awful, just some are more awful than others.


----------



## Turnbull

Sorry, I took the crown jewels yesterday.  You may not have noticed because I replaced them with tachyon particle holograms that look and feel the exact same as the originals.

And then I ate them.

Anyway, this corona thing is buggin'.  I haven't been to work since March but the unemployment is actually more than my working income.  *shrugs* It's a living.


----------



## ppsage

*"TWiV 640: Test often, fast turnaround, with Michael Mina July 16, 2020 

Michael Mina joins TWiV to reveal why frequent and rapid SARS-CoV-2 testing is more important than accuracy, how a daily $1 rapid test could control the pandemic, and why group testing works."​*
Dr. Mina's presentation occupies about the first hour of the podcast and is somewhat more of a report than TWiV's usual bantering discussions. It really has only the minimum technicalities needed to get the point across but there's going to be discussion of virus titer and transmission thresholds and so forth. Judy and I both understood it good enough to follow the logic. This is really hope giving and really important. Please watch it.​
TWiV (This Week in Virology) is a weekly podcast about virus research conducted by laboratory scientists. ​
_"Dr. Michael Mina, MD, PhD is an Assistant Professor of Epidemiology at Harvard T. H. Chan School of Public Health and a core member of the Center for Communicable Disease Dynamics (CCDD). He is additionally an Assistant Professor in Immunology and Infectious Diseases at HSPH and Associate Medical Director in Clinical Microbiology (molecular diagnostics) in the Department of Pathology at Brigham and Women’s Hospital, Harvard Medical School."​_
​


microbe.tv … TWiV 640: Test often, fast turnaround, with Michael Mina | This Week in Virology
​​





​


----------



## Olly Buckle

So Boris tells us things will be back to normal by Christmas and Matt Hancock tells us he is going to stop publishing numbers of deaths as they are inaccurate. Meanwhile SAGE (The scientific advisory group) tells us that there is no chance of things getting back to normal that soon and the daily figures have always been inaccurate, compare this years dead to the average over the last five years, their covid death figures are about 20,000 out! 

Their answer? Well more people are dying from non-covid causes because they won't go to the hospital when they are having heart attacks, and we get a couple of vox pop clips from grieving sons and daughters. What? 20,000 of them? Back to normal? Depends what normal means to you, everybody going to work and eating out, or nobody dropping dead or suffering long term effects from a debilitating disease.

Why do I have the impression that the people who own just about everything don't give a s**t about anyone else and are only interested in getting hold of the bit they don't own? Maybe it is an assumption that Dominic is their mouthpiece and Boris their poodle?


----------



## dither

Olly Buckle said:


> Why do I have the impression that the people who own just about everything don't give a s**t about anyone else and are only interested in getting hold of the bit they don't own? Maybe it is an assumption that Dominic is their mouthpiece and Boris their poodle?



So what's new Mr.Buckle?


----------



## Joker

Y'know, I was thinking the other day that we've been lucky to avoid a major war for the last five years... but then I noticed COVID has already killed more people than have died in the Syrian Civil War. It'll probably get to Vietnam levels before it's all said and done.


----------



## PiP

I would not trust bungling Boris and his clowns any further than I could throw them. They are about as useful as a chocolate teapot... but at least you can eat chocolate. At least 
Portugal has been honest with their reporting ... and bty doing so has crippled the tourist industry in the Algarve. If only people would accept and respect the New Normal and respect wearing masks, social distancing and basic covid hygiene we could all get on with our lives and learn to adapt.


----------



## SueC

PiP said:


> I would not trust bungling Boris and his clowns any further than I could throw them. They are about as useful as a chocolate teapot... but at least you can eat chocolate. At least
> Portugal has been honest with their reporting ... and bty doing so has crippled the tourist industry in the Algarve. If only people would accept and respect the New Normal and respect wearing masks, social distancing and basic covid hygiene we could all get on with our lives and learn to adapt.



Just had a discussion about this with a friend. There had been these parties called "Covid Parties," where a bunch of people gather with a person infected with the virus and then the first person who gets it, wins. Wins what? So then came a young man (30) whose last words before he died were, "I think I made a mistake."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/12/us/30-year-old-covid-party-death.html

When you read stories like this, you wonder how in the world anyone can go out the door without a mask, and without washing hands. Such simple things! Getting back to the discussion, my friend said you can't control other people so there's no point in trying. Just be sure YOU do what you need to do, and let others take care of themselves. I need to stop worrying about this because the part of my personality that wants everyone to behave is in high gear! LOL. Sometimes people are just unreasonable and don't want to behave.


----------



## dither

The annoying thing is, we are told that wearing a mask gives the wearer very little protection, the wearer is actually protecting the jerks who won't wear a mask. And that makes me so angry.  Those people, like that 30 yr old who won first prize at the covid party, I have no problem with that, you pay your money and take your chance, if that's your thing, but what about the rest of us? Selfish SOB s.

At least there's one less lunatic in the asylum now. But how many has he infected?


----------



## Irwin

Joker said:


> Y'know, I was thinking the other day that we've been lucky to avoid a major war for the last five years... but then I noticed COVID has already killed more people than have died in the Syrian Civil War. It'll probably get to Vietnam levels before it's all said and done.



It's already killed more than twice the number of American military personnel who died in the Vietnam war, which was 58,220. It's impossible to give an exact number of the total number of people who died in the Vietnam war, but it's well over a million. I doubt we'll reach that level, but it's possible, given the mentality of some people--the ones who believe that being told to wear a facemask is akin to fascism.


----------



## Joker

Irwin said:


> It's already killed more than twice the number of American military personnel who died in the Vietnam war, which was 58,220. It's impossible to give an exact number of the total number of people who died in the Vietnam war, but it's well over a million. I doubt we'll reach that level, but it's possible, given the mentality of some people--the ones who believe that being told to wear a facemask is akin to fascism.



Just going by historical precedence, I'm going to bet that there will be a second wave and/or a mutation at some point.


----------



## River Rose

SueC said:


> Just had a discussion about this with a friend. There had been these parties called "Covid Parties," where a bunch of people gather with a person infected with the virus and then the first person who gets it, wins. Wins what? So then came a young man (30) whose last words before he died were, "I think I made a mistake."
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/12/us/30-year-old-covid-party-death.html
> 
> When you read stories like this, you wonder how in the world anyone can go out the door without a mask, and without washing hands. Such simple things! Getting back to the discussion, my friend said you can't control other people so there's no point in trying. Just be sure YOU do what you need to do, and let others take care of themselves. I need to stop worrying about this because the part of my personality that wants everyone to behave is in high gear! LOL. Sometimes people are just unreasonable and don't want to behave.



I understand your not understanding. 
Yet, I will not get my children vaccinated. Against anything. If you took the time to sit down and read the ingredients in a Vaccination you would be horrified. 
Myself also my children have been to chicken pox get together when they started making that one mandatory. 
I am ready also willing to go Mamma first into a Covid get together to get the virus,,,build immunity. Come out stronger than I was when entered. 
I am that strong of a girl. I play hard. I win.


----------



## dither

River Rose said:


> Come out stronger than I was when entered.
> I am that strong of a girl. I play hard. I win.



Assuming that you'd "come out" of course.


----------



## River Rose

dither said:


> Assuming that you'd "come out" of course.



Assumption correct.


----------



## ppsage

I won't be going to any Covid parties. I'm holding out for the Ebola bash. Or maybe the HIV hoedown. That's how .........


----------



## SueC

River Rose said:


> I am ready also willing to go Mamma first into a Covid get together to get the virus,,,build immunity.



Not everyone builds immunity; and many die. Its not like chicken pox. This is a risk I would never take.


----------



## Olly Buckle

SueC said:


> Not everyone builds immunity; and many die. Its not like chicken pox. This is a risk I would never take.



Yes, think common cold, that's a covid disease, and if you are unlucky you can have one every winter. Only it is not like just having a cold, my mate was on a ventilator, unconscious, for weeks, he's been out of hospital for weeks now, but he's still recovering. People talk about the dead, yes it can kill you, multiple organ failure, but you can also 'recover' and have lung damage, kidney damage, liver damage, hey, *brain damage* that lasts for the rest of your life.
Your kids need you whole, River. You stay as far away from some shit as you can get, you wouldn't invite Charles Manson round to tea with them or drop them in a snake pit. Okay some snakes are harmless, and it might be Marilyn Manson, but it can do those things, and it does do them often enough you really shouldn't mess with it.
Now just you be a good girl and listen to your uncle Olly, he's talkin' sense for once.


----------



## SueC

Olly Buckle said:


> Yes, think common cold, that's a covid disease, and if you are unlucky you can have one every winter. Only it is not like just having a cold, my mate was on a ventilator, unconscious, for weeks, he's been out of hospital for weeks now, but he's still recovering. People talk about the dead, yes it can kill you, multiple organ failure, but you can also 'recover' and have lung damage, kidney damage, liver damage, hey, *brain damage* that lasts for the rest of your life.
> Your kids need you whole, River. You stay as far away from some shit as you can get, you wouldn't invite Charles Manson round to tea with them or drop them in a snake pit. Okay some snakes are harmless, and it might be Marilyn Manson, but it can do those things, and it does do them often enough you really shouldn't mess with it.
> Now just you be a good girl and listen to your uncle Olly, he's talkin' sense for once.



Olly, I just heard on the news today that many of those who have survived Covid-19, being on the ventilator, etc. now have all sorts of difficulties, like you said, that may last the rest of their lives. The fatigue alone is debilitating enough to destroy a livelihood and could lead to a myriad of other problems. Imagine being told that you are being placed in an induced coma, then a ventilator, and not sure at that moment if you will ever wake up? The mental terror of just that experience could be devastating to an individual. I pray all the time for people I don't know. I hope your friend gets back to his normal soon; I hope it's possible for him. Must have been scary for you too - and his family.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Rwanda has its R number right down and looks like eliminating the disease. *Rwanda*!!! Yes, the African country that has been racked by civil war and has a GDP of about twopence. They have been track and tracing seriously. Here we make ten phone calls and then give up. Here we have been tracing less than 50% of contacts in places like Blackburn where there have been hotspots. There most people don't even have phones. There they get people out pounding, well not pavements, they probably don't have a lot of them either, but searching 'til they find them.

The point is *it can be done* if there is actually a will to do it, we don't have to 'Prepare ourselves to lose loved one', Mr Boris Johnson. We have to take positive steps, like providing people with face masks and the information they need, Mr Matt Hancock. Come on! It's not computer science, it's not even 1940's rocket science, it's simple hard work, and if they can do it we should find it easy-peasy.

But is there money in it? Will it turn a profit like a telephone track and trace system run by Serco?

Want the bad news? Seems likely a flu pandemic is on the cards this year, and quite probable that it is possible to catch flu and covid at the same time, be sure and get your flu jab this September folks.


----------



## River Rose

SueC said:


> Olly, I just heard on the news today that many of those who have survived Covid-19, being on the ventilator, etc. now have all sorts of difficulties, like you said, that may last the rest of their lives. The fatigue alone is debilitating enough to destroy a livelihood and could lead to a myriad of other problems. Imagine being told that you are being placed in an induced coma, then a ventilator, and not sure at that moment if you will ever wake up? The mental terror of just that experience could be devastating to an individual. I pray all the time for people I don't know. I hope your friend gets back to his normal soon; I hope it's possible for him. Must have been scary for you too - and his family.



This happened to me. Not Covid related. I went on vacation a year ago. Came home with kidney failure. I was hospitalized with a kidney function of under 9%. 
My last test almost a year later I am up to 49% funtion. 
I am extremely tired still. My body does not function like it should. It hurts. My skin hurts to touch it. 
Yet I climb. 
Everyday. 
I walk 10 Exercise miles a day. It’s not easy. Yet,,I think of people who are worse off than me. 
They give me the strength I need.


----------



## Olly Buckle

River Rose said:


> This happened to me. Not Covid related. I went on vacation a year ago. Came home with kidney failure. I was hospitalized with a kidney function of under 9%.
> My last test almost a year later I am up to 49% funtion.
> I am extremely tired still. My body does not function like it should. It hurts. My skin hurts to touch it.
> Yet I climb.
> Everyday.
> I walk 10 Exercise miles a day. It’s not easy. Yet,,I think of people who are worse off than me.
> They give me the strength I need.



That sounds horrible, I admire your determination in coping with it. On the other hand that is another reason why you should be careful to try and avoid covid, it will go after the parts already weakened. I had a flare up of my immune problem a while ago that affected my lungs, when they did a scan I had horrid holes in them, and I got a letter from my doctor warning me that I am a high risk person and should avoid unnecessary contacts as much as possible. Maybe not actual barricades biro  , but if people want to make deliveries for example I stand well back from the door and get them to leave things outside, I wash my hands straight away when I have brought it in, and I leave it 'til next day before opening.
Like Dither said somewhere I was advised that walking is really good exercise, you use everything without straining anything, keep it up. It's not easy avoiding infections with kids about, they pick up everything, but here's wishing you properly well again.


----------



## Olly Buckle

They report the lowest number of deaths, then you look and the figure is for the week to 10th july, that's eleven days ago so it tells us nothing about what easing lockdown has done, we won't know that until it is much too late. Mind you you might expect the number to drop, there has been such a huge cull of the vulnerable there can't be many of us left


----------



## andrewclunn

couples-should-wear-face-masks-during-sex-new-study-insists

Is it a troll, parody, or just what passes for science these days?  Having trouble telling?


----------



## ppsage

The first thing to keep in mind is that approximately zero percent of this reporting is composed by scientists. (You can usually tell if you're looking at actual science because it's long, boring, fairly incomprehensible, and loaded with distinctions that nobody pays attention to.) Journalists aren't much better at making sense of this than the rest of us, but they get paid by the attempt. Mostly they just bs their way to the next paycheck. The journalistic response to this pandemic is so far an unmitigated disaster.


----------



## Irwin

ppsage said:


> The first thing to keep in mind is that approximately zero percent of this reporting is composed by scientists. (You can usually tell if you're looking at actual science because it's long, boring, fairly incomprehensible, and loaded with distinctions that nobody pays attention to.) Journalists aren't much better at making sense of this than the rest of us, but they get paid by the attempt. Mostly they just bs their way to the next paycheck. The journalistic response to this pandemic is so far an unmitigated disaster.



Like what? Most reporting I've seen on the pandemic has been pretty decent. Post an example of the "unmitigated disaster" of which you speak.


----------



## ppsage

Irwin said:


> Like what? Most reporting I've seen on the pandemic has been pretty decent. Post an example of the "unmitigated disaster" of which you speak.



Every news outlet has reported that decaying antibody levels after recovery are cause for concern about immunity, even though these levels always decay and T4 cells are the basis for lasting immunity. Every news outlet has reported that some people have become infected twice even though no genomic comparison for the two cases exists to prove the contention. Every news outlet is reporting the results of the Moderna phase one vaccine trials as sensational news even though it's just 36 people and there's many months to go. No news outlet is currently reporting the distinction between tests suitable for clinical therapy and tests suitable for epidemic management, which is at present the most urgent concern. 

Here's an example of completely useless and bogus reporting: Coronavirus symptoms fall into six different groupings, study finds (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/me...x-different-groupings-study-finds/ar-BB16Rqg5) What these guys are really reporting is a 9% improvement in therapy prescription prediction, which isn't even really a thing, based on a miniscule statistical study. Articles like this one are a dime a dozen on any social media platform. 

You can find endless articles about supposed mutations, but not a single one about quasi-species or composite genomes or even selection pressure. 

The list is endless.


----------



## andrewclunn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpbrvWe3xFk

:mrgreen:


----------



## Olly Buckle

andrewclunn said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpbrvWe3xFk
> 
> :mrgreen:



About thirty seconds in was enough for me, guess that proves ppsage's point though.


----------



## Irwin

ppsage said:


> You can find endless articles about supposed mutations, but not a single one about quasi-species or composite genomes or even selection pressure.



I found some articles in about ten seconds. Of course, they're not going to be on MSN. They're going to be mainly in microbiology journals.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Irwin said:


> I found some articles in about ten seconds. Of course, they're not going to be on MSN. They're going to be mainly in microbiology journals.



To me that seems like clutching at straws to refute ppsage. I would call microbiology journals an information source rather than a news outlet. How many non-specialists read the BMJ compared to the Daily Mail, or Nature compared to NY Times? A main stream journalist is going to pick a good headline over boringly accurate information every time, and even if he writes for nature he wants a good headline to kick off with. I can't help feeling you are nit picking to make a not very valid point. Perhaps saying reporting has been an 'Unmitigated disaster' is a bit journalistic, but 'General disaster' would strike me as pretty accurate.


----------



## Olly Buckle

something the missus just read out to me,

"Don't like wearing a mask? They are going to hate wearing a ventilator."

Grim, but it made me smile.


----------



## dither

Olly Buckle said:


> something the missus just read out to me,
> 
> "Don't like wearing a mask? They are going to hate wearing a ventilator."
> 
> Grim, but it made me smile.



Good point, should plastered across huge advertising boards in towns imo.


----------



## Irwin

Olly Buckle said:


> something the missus just read out to me,
> 
> "Don't like wearing a mask? They are going to hate wearing a ventilator."
> 
> Grim, but it made me smile.



Most masks don't protect the person wearing the mask; they inhibit the spreading of the virus if the wearer is infected.

Refusing to wear a mask is selfish, irresponsible, and childish.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Irwin said:


> Most masks don't protect the person wearing the mask; they inhibit the spreading of the virus if the wearer is infected.
> 
> Refusing to wear a mask is selfish, irresponsible, and childish.



I don't disagree with a word of this, but the more people wear masks the more the spread is inhibited, which is the ultimate protection if it can be taken far enough.

I would also say that you know it's true, I know it's true, but there is a good chance that the people refusing to wear masks are doing so because they think they don't need protection from the virus, either through some macho idiocy, or because they believe in some conspiracy theory. Some of these would be vulnerable to the suggestion that they needed a mask if one played on their ignorance and fear. Well! That's how the powers that be do it


----------



## Irwin

Olly Buckle said:


> I don't disagree with a word of this, but the more people wear masks the more the spread is inhibited, which is the ultimate protection if it can be taken far enough.
> 
> I would also say that you know it's true, I know it's true, but there is a good chance that the people refusing to wear masks are doing so because they think they don't need protection from the virus, either through some macho idiocy, or because they believe in some conspiracy theory. Some of these would be vulnerable to the suggestion that they needed a mask if one played on their ignorance and fear. Well! That's how the powers that be do it



A lot of them don't care if they catch the novel coronavirus because, after all, "it's not much worse than seasonal influenza," and it's a giant conspiracy that it's far more deadly--concocted by liberals to make Donald Trump look bad. And since Jesus never had to wear a mask, they shouldn't have to. Or something.

It's actually remarkable that the human species survived as long as it has, considering the mentality of so many of its members. Maybe it's just more definitive proof that humans are just another animal, not that much different from horses who refuse to exit a burning barn.


----------



## ppsage

Irwin said:


> I found some articles in about ten seconds. Of course, they're not going to be on MSN. They're going to be mainly in microbiology journals.



I think this is the point I'm trying, clumsily, to make. The topics I suggested are literally in the first couple lectures of Virology 101. Understanding them and how this differs from living organisms is an essential foundation for a discussion of viral mutation, about which MSM publishes scores of articles. To persons most of whom are utterly naïve to the topics.


----------



## Xander416

Olly Buckle said:


> I would also say that you know it's true, I know it's true, but there is a good chance that the people refusing to wear masks are doing so because they think they don't need protection from the virus, either through some macho idiocy, or because they believe in some conspiracy theory.


Like this guy.

https://wgntv.com/news/coronavirus/...dies-after-attending-covid-party-doctor-says/


----------



## Olly Buckle

Xander416 said:


> Like this guy.
> 
> https://wgntv.com/news/coronavirus/...dies-after-attending-covid-party-doctor-says/



Not visible because of EU law, guess they have not heard about Brexit


----------



## Xander416

Olly Buckle said:


> Not visible because of EU law, guess they have not heard about Brexit


Pasted from the link.

SAN ANTONIO, Texas — A Texas doctor says a 30-year-old patient who  thought the coronavirus was a hoax has died after attending a “COVID  party.”


    “One of the things that was heart-wrenching that he said to his nurse  was, ‘You know, I think I made a mistake,’ and this young man went to a  COVID party,” Dr. Jane Appleby, the chief medical officer at Methodist  Hospital, told KSAT.  “He didn’t really believe. He thought the disease was a hoax. He  thought he was young and he was invincible and wouldn’t get affected by  the disease.”


According to Appleby, a “COVID party” is a gathering held by someone  who has tested positive for the coronavirus. People attend to see who  gets infected first. “They’ll have a party to invite their friends over to see if they can beat the disease,” Appleby explained.


   Appleby said some young people don’t realize how ill they are.


    “People will come in initially and they don’t look so bad. They don’t  look really sick. But when you check their oxygen levels and you check  their lab tests, they’re really sicker than they appear on the surface,”  Appleby said.


    Appleby advises seeking help if you are not feeling well, have a high fever, cough and severe muscle aches.


    “My plea to our community and especially all of our young folks in  the community is to take it seriously. Wear your mask,” she said.


----------



## Irwin

Xander416 said:


> Pasted from the link.
> 
> SAN ANTONIO, Texas — A Texas doctor says a 30-year-old patient who  thought the coronavirus was a hoax has died after attending a “COVID  party.”
> 
> 
> “One of the things that was heart-wrenching that he said to his nurse  was, ‘You know, I think I made a mistake,’ and this young man went to a  COVID party,” Dr. Jane Appleby, the chief medical officer at Methodist  Hospital, told KSAT.  “He didn’t really believe. He thought the disease was a hoax. He  thought he was young and he was invincible and wouldn’t get affected by  the disease.”
> 
> 
> According to Appleby, a “COVID party” is a gathering held by someone  who has tested positive for the coronavirus. People attend to see who  gets infected first. “They’ll have a party to invite their friends over to see if they can beat the disease,” Appleby explained.
> 
> 
> Appleby said some young people don’t realize how ill they are.
> 
> 
> “People will come in initially and they don’t look so bad. They don’t  look really sick. But when you check their oxygen levels and you check  their lab tests, they’re really sicker than they appear on the surface,”  Appleby said.
> 
> 
> Appleby advises seeking help if you are not feeling well, have a high fever, cough and severe muscle aches.
> 
> 
> “My plea to our community and especially all of our young folks in  the community is to take it seriously. Wear your mask,” she said.



People like that believe that liberals, all the major news outlets except the ones who spin the news to the right, nearly all scientists, and all the Democrats in government are perpetuating this big hoax in an effort to control us. I have no empathy for that guy. He's 30 years old--a grown man with fully formed morals and sense of consequence. He made a choice and paid the price. He could have used his final time to warn people about the dangers of covid-19 and may have saved some lives by doing so, but chose not to.

A lot of people just don't seem to place a very high value on life. They're willing to give their lives in politically motivated wars like Iraq and Afghanistan, and now they're giving their lives, apparently to show their support for president Trump. I don't understand that mentality.


----------



## Xander416

Irwin said:


> People like that believe that liberals, all the major news outlets except the ones who spin the news to the right, nearly all scientists, and all the Democrats in government are perpetuating this big hoax in an effort to control us. I have no empathy for that guy. He's 30 years old--a grown man with fully formed morals and sense of consequence. He made a choice and paid the price. He could have used his final time to warn people about the dangers of covid-19 and may have saved some lives by doing so, but chose not to.
> 
> A lot of people just don't seem to place a very high value on life. They're willing to give their lives in politically motivated wars like Iraq and Afghanistan, and now they're giving their lives, apparently to show their support for president Trump. I don't understand that mentality.


I'm a conservative myself (though more middle than far right) and I don't understand the devotion to Trump either. As long as you're with him, his supporters will sing your praises to the sky, but break with him to any degree and they do everything short of take out a contract on your life. Even Trump's own niece got that treatment. People make a lot of jokes about Trumpism being a cult, but it honestly don't look that far from the truth to me.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Biro, this is the covid discussion thread, not the political discussion thread. 

In terms of dealing with that he is a distinct failure, compare with a country like Vietnam where they are right in the heart of it, no real warning or anything, it kicked off practically next door. My missus was there on holiday, got back just before everything shut down and she said they were organised from day one, hand sanitizer and free masks everywhere and everyone using them. Go look at the figures, I don't think they had any deaths. Or look at New Zealand, a prime minister who said "No unnecessary deaths on my watch" and they have actually wiped it out.

From the covid point of view, which is what this thread is about, I would have to conclude that Trump is an unmitigated disaster. 'Stop testing so we have less cases'. What sort of logic is that?


----------



## Joker

Olly Buckle said:


> Biro, this is the covid discussion thread, not the political discussion thread.
> 
> In terms of dealing with that he is a distinct failure, compare with a country like Vietnam where they are right in the heart of it, no real warning or anything, it kicked off practically next door. My missus was there on holiday, got back just before everything shut down and she said they were organised from day one, hand sanitizer and free masks everywhere and everyone using them. Go look at the figures, I don't think they had any deaths. Or look at New Zealand, a prime minister who said "No unnecessary deaths on my watch" and they have actually wiped it out.
> 
> From the covid point of view, which is what this thread is about, I would have to conclude that Trump is an unmitigated disaster. 'Stop testing so we have less cases'. What sort of logic is that?



Apples and oranges.

Vietnam is a geographically small, culturally homogeneous country that gets far less international traffic than the United States. New Zealand isn't _quite _as homogenous, but it still applies. Also, both are unitary states, while the United States is a federation. _Obviously _coordination is going to go far smoother.

Yes, Biro is getting political, but the discourse here and elsewhere has proven you can't have a discussion about COVID without _someone _making it so. The fact that you claimed Trump was _objectively _the bad guy here and not, say, the governors (D or R), proves you're no better.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Joker said:


> Apples and oranges.
> 
> Vietnam is a geographically small, culturally homogeneous country that gets far less international traffic than the United States. New Zealand isn't _quite _as homogenous, but it still applies. Also, both are unitary states, while the United States is a federation. _Obviously _coordination is going to go far smoother.
> 
> Yes, Biro is getting political, but the discourse here and elsewhere has proven you can't have a discussion about COVID without _someone _making it so. The fact that you claimed Trump was _objectively _the bad guy here and not, say, the governors (D or R), proves you're no better.



Yes, I can see a federation is a different thing. To be quite honest about it I am not fully conversant with the system, but surely there is a degree of uniformity? Like I understand things like sentencing may vary state to state to some degree, but there are basic federal laws that apply across the board and affect people's rights. When so many people are dying has the federation no power to protect its citizens? 
I am also sure that Trump is not the only culpable individual, but individual state governors and such don't signify for much at this distance. There are a very few national politicians that I know, and a few more that I might recognise if they were named, but I am probably as ignorant of the whole system as most English people.
Trump however stands out, he's the president, and that seems to be a pretty significant position to most Americans. At the same time he is exhibiting a pretty cavalier attitude to thousands of citizens suffering death or disablement. 
It's not really political on my part for two reasons, I don't know enough about the politics to make the judgement and I am not really a political animal; I tend to ee cummings view of politicians.


----------



## Joker

Olly Buckle said:


> Yes, I can see a federation is a different thing. To be quite honest about it I am not fully conversant with the system, but surely there is a degree of uniformity? Like I understand things like sentencing may vary state to state to some degree, but there are basic federal laws that apply across the board and affect people's rights. When so many people are dying has the federation no power to protect its citizens?
> I am also sure that Trump is not the only culpable individual, but individual state governors and such don't signify for much at this distance. There are a very few national politicians that I know, and a few more that I might recognise if they were named, but I am probably as ignorant of the whole system as most English people.
> Trump however stands out, he's the president, and that seems to be a pretty significant position to most Americans. At the same time he is exhibiting a pretty cavalier attitude to thousands of citizens suffering death or disablement.
> It's not really political on my part for two reasons, I don't know enough about the politics to make the judgement and I am not really a political animal; I tend to ee cummings view of politicians.




All powers not explicitly granted to the federal government are reserved for the states. And that's a damn good thing, because while England being a unitary state may be a good thing because it's a small, mostly homogeneous island country, America is HUGE. As big as all Europe. What works in New Jersey might not in Wyoming.

I'm not even saying you're necessarily wrong in Trump shouldering _some_ of the blame. But I find it telling that's immediately where your (and many others') minds went. Of course Trump doesn't know the first thing about pandemic response - he was a businessman! But he's also not a dictator and relies on his cabinet and advisors. Blame them. Or blame the governors, who hold all the local power. Or blame the conservative idiots who are protesting masks. Or blame the liberal idiots who think protesting other causes makes them excempt. But blaming Trump first is just asinine. I'd say the same if Obama was in office.


----------



## Irwin

Olly Buckle said:


> Yes, I can see a federation is a different thing. To be quite honest about it I am not fully conversant with the system, but surely there is a degree of uniformity? Like I understand things like sentencing may vary state to state to some degree, but there are basic federal laws that apply across the board and affect people's rights. When so many people are dying has the federation no power to protect its citizens?
> I am also sure that Trump is not the only culpable individual, but individual state governors and such don't signify for much at this distance. There are a very few national politicians that I know, and a few more that I might recognise if they were named, but I am probably as ignorant of the whole system as most English people.
> Trump however stands out, he's the president, and that seems to be a pretty significant position to most Americans. At the same time he is exhibiting a pretty cavalier attitude to thousands of citizens suffering death or disablement.
> It's not really political on my part for two reasons, I don't know enough about the politics to make the judgement and I am not really a political animal; I tend to ee cummings view of politicians.



Trump has the ability to influence his followers, and he created a stigma about wearing masks, which he has been denigrating until just a few days ago. Had he been an advocate of wearing masks from the beginning, we wouldn't be in this mess right now. But once someone has their mind made up, it's hard to convince them they're wrong--especially when it becomes part of their world view. Many of them are willing to pay fines, go to jail, and even to kill for the "right" to go without a face-mask. It's crazy. Such a large portion of the population is completely irrational.


----------



## ppsage

Epidemic response preparedness is largely under federal supervision. Has been for decades, since the fifties at least. All the lead agencies are federal. All the controlling policies are federal. Under this administration, vacancies are unfilled, budgets are cut and policies are scrapped. That the executive in charge may be ignorant does change where the responsibility lies when improvidence leads to misfortune.


----------



## Joker

ppsage said:


> Epidemic response preparedness is largely under federal supervision. Has been for decades, since the fifties at least. All the lead agencies are federal. All the controlling policies are federal. Under this administration, vacancies are unfilled, budgets are cut and policies are scrapped. That the executive in charge may be ignorant does change where the responsibility lies when improvidence leads to misfortune.




Trump _proposed_ cutting the CDC's budget. Congress ignored him and actually upped it. Because he's not a dictator.

And the CDC is just an advisory body anyways. There's a reason governors and even mayors are coming up with their own policies, and hell, even private businesses have some say. 

I definitely don't think Trump's best act has been his handling of COVID. But the fact that people would rather talk about him than Governor Cuomo (Democrat) and Governor DeSantis' (Republican) epic failures that have actually cost thousands of lives is absurd. Or just telling of how we cut civics out of school ciriculums.

Source: the definitely not conservative Associated Press.


----------



## Theglasshouse

Using salt water supposedly to create an alkaline solution(mouth washing) which helps to prevent the virus from reaching the lungs since it stays in the mouth for 6 days before going to the lungs (the most severe symptons). Also make sure to brush your teeth twice a day with or without the virus since researchers said it helps to recover for those with the virus.


----------



## bdcharles

Biro said:


> What happened to common sense.  Is everyone just a sheep now and has to be told how to go about their lives by an almighty?  Can't you just wear a mask yourself if it suits without your master giving you instructions?



If it suits, though? Surely the idea is to work together stop the spread of covid-19, not "do your bit if you feel like it, don't if you don't". I saw some guy in the supermarket yesterday gleefully not wearing his mask (the order came in on friday as you'll know), yapping to his pal on the door and I just thought, who the eff do you think you are? What is this berk supposed to be, the pinnacle of our evolution or something? Sod that. He actually looked slightly guilty, as well he should have done. I told the store attendant he'd spoken to "shouldn't your mate be wearing a mask" and got a moronically wordless blank stare in reply, so: who are the "sheep" in this scenario exactly? Who are their "masters"? Low-grade twats and their idiot sycophants, and all the power in the wrong hands, as usual. 

TL;DR - I think people do need instruction, lots of it, and sharpish.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Wearing a mask is a social responsibility, it protects other people, Biro. Now, if you were saying, "Why do people have to wear clothes, why can't they make up their minds individually, I'm going down the library naked, it is my personal decision and affects no-one else." You might have a bit of a case. You would probably be in the back of a police van before you got half way there and not enjoying any liberty at all for a bit, but I can see the logic of it. No one is going to die from seeing your ancient body. If you don't wear a mask there is a chance someone will die from it so you have a social responsibility to wear one. Think of it like driving through a thirty zone at sixty, you probably won't kill anyone, but the law insists on thirty because that way a lot fewer people die overall.

There are thousands of people who went on holiday coming back from Spain and they are going to be told they must quarantine for two weeks, they will be allowed to go home on public transport, and I don't suppose anyone will check on whether thy are actually staying there. Don't be daft, these are the sort of morons who thought it would be a good idea to go to Spain as soon as they could, They're not going to quarantine themselves for two weeks, and no-one is going to check. Lets have a nice secure quarantine facility next to the airport with razor wire, watch towers and machine guns, its not like people have to travel if they don't want to go in it. Okay, I was joking about the machineguns, but there is a dirty great tower block hotel next to the airport that would probably welcome the business at the moment. Don't the people who own it have any mates in the Government? Just colour me cynical.


----------



## bdcharles

Biro said:


> My post meant why do the people who do not wear protection or bother with social distancing have to follow others and wait until they have to be told to do something.
> 
> Everybody knows there is a virus.  Everybody knows they can catch it.  Everybody knows it can kill.  Everybody knows prevention is a mask, sanitiser and keeping away from others.  Just as with other diseases. ..................But then some have to wait to be told to wear a mask, wash their hands and keep away from others.
> 
> Now if you introduce a law with a severe penalty.  I think I would prefer 'shoot on sight'.



Yeah, I don't know. It's the same sort of people who shout bomb in an airport, as far as I am concerned. They want to be seen to be trying to be funny, I guess.


----------



## bdcharles

Biro said:


> Olly why do you keep trying to twist my posts into meaning something else?



To be fair, I first took it as Olly did. I'm not very good at reading between lines


----------



## Olly Buckle

Biro said:


> Olly why do you keep trying to twist my posts into meaning something else?



Sorry, I wasn't deliberately misreading you, we are reading from the same book. Try to see it as me trying to add weight to your argument by my agreement  

I would still differentiate between the very thick who don't think for themselves, they can't help being thick, and those who are deliberately obtuse and talk about erosion of their liberties. I normally disapprove of violence, and shooting is a bit final, but possibly a 'Glasgow kiss.' for the latter if I were a little younger and fitter.


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## Irwin

In a related story, an Alabama pastor says more than 40 people have contracted the coronavirus after they held a revival event. I wonder if they see themselves as martyrs to show their loyalty to Trump and the Republican party.


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## Darkkin

Please note this is all merely opinion and is not aimed at anyone:

I work at a bookstore, mask are mandatory, (but an individual's circumstances are also taken into consideration, medical, little kids, sensory issues...) and so far our customers have been really patient with the whole situation.  We have not had anyone melting down about their rights.  Worst case scenario, they simply walk out.  More and more businesses are standing up and saying, no mask, no service.  It is a policy that is working toward preventing a second shut down.  Don't want to wear a mask, there are alternatives.

People wearing masks = Sheep
People with no masks = Lions
Covid - 19 = Big Game Hunter

Who is left...Sheep.

I'm sorry, but I am out of patience with people declaring their HIPPA rights are being violated because of a voluntary policy to prevent the further spread of a deadly virus.  (And if these people knew what HIPPA is, they might have an idea of how ignorant they sound.)

The US makes up about 7% of the world's total population, and with the death toll at about 650,000 and nearly 200,000 of those in the US, we need a reality check.  Roughly 1/3 of the world total in 7% of the world's population.  This math is not hard.  Who am I going to believe, Dr. Fauci (leading world expert on infectious disease and others like him) or the Chump Administration?

I might be a mask wearing sheep, but I'm not stupid.  The Mongols knew what they were doing in 1347.  People today...are willingly ignorant and self entitled.  I am almost ashamed to say I live in the US because I completely understand and appreciate the rest of the world's view of this country.


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## Joker

Irwin said:


> In a related story, an Alabama pastor says more than 40 people have contracted the coronavirus after they held a revival event. I wonder if they see themselves as martyrs to show their loyalty to Trump and the Republican party.



In a related story, anarchists have been rioting for two straight months in Portland, likely infecting countless people. I wonder if they see themselves as martyrs to show their loyalty to Biden and the Democratic party.


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## Irwin

Scenarios we'd like to see...

K*aren enters store without a mask.

**STORE OWNER*​*Sorry ma'am, you can't come in here without a mask. We can provide one if you don't have your own.*​*
KAREN*​*My doctor prohibits me from wearing a mask due to my respiratory problem.

*​*STORE OWNER*​*How does your doctor feel about pepper spray?
*​*
Store owner sprays Karen with a healthy dose of pepper spray.
*
*STORE OWNER*​*You're putting people's lives at risk, you moron. Now get the hell out of my store.*​


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## jenthepen

I'm almost at the point of despair at the way people in general and the BBC news in the UK seem to be trying to find ways to question and undermine every precaution the government brings in to stop the spread of this virus. I'm a strong defender of people's right to decide for themselves in most situations but, with the situation the world is in, it's incredible to me that anyone would put their own pleasure or freedoms before the health of their fellow citizens. 

This virus may appear to be a minor irritation to the vast majority of the population and thus not worth protecting against but people who think that way should stop and consider the implications of their beliefs. There are thousands of people all across the UK who had their treatment for life-threatening diseases like cancer simply stopped when Coronavirus threatened to overwhelm the NHS. This includes children and young adults and a whole range of deadly conditions. It is by no means a virus that 'simply' impacts old people. 

Finally, after a hiatus of three months, medical services are gradually being restored to many seriously ill patients and testing for cancer is also beginning again. It will be many months before the backlog of cases will all get to be seen. With this in mind, the objectors should ask themselves if it is really ok to risk kicking off a new wave of the infection by selfishly refusing to follow a few simple rules.

My darling husband was due to have life-saving surgery for an aggressive cancer on March 29th this year. His operation was cancelled because of the Coronavirus emergency. We are now being offered the operation on August 18th - almost 5 months later - and have been warned that there is a possibility that the cancer has become terminal. If there is another wave of this virus, his operation could be cancelled again. 

When I see people whinging over holidays and objecting to putting on a mask for the few minutes they are in a shop it feels like a slap in the face. God knows how mothers of seriously ill children are feeling.


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## Xander416

Biro said:


> I bet if anybody had the bollox to introduce a law saying that under 40's who get the virus will not get any treatment everybody would look the same tomorrow morning.  Two eyes and a mask.


Without a shadow of a doubt.


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## Olly Buckle

Boris hails massive success over death toll.

Can someone explain to him having the highest number of excess deaths in Europe is not a success, more is not always better.

Complicated rules introduced about meeting people indoors or outdoors from the same or different family groups, and what constitutes a group, in certain areas.

Don't be daft, since Dominic drove to Scotland to visit his parents no one takes anything they say seriously. Most of it is only advisory anyway, and the rest is unenforceable. I was told the other day someone saw the security man and his mate chatting at the door to the supermarket, no distancing, no masks, that's how seriously people take it .


----------



## BornForBurning

> *You're putting people's lives at risk, you moron. Now get the hell out of my store*


I am a full advocate of mask-wearing, nose-swabbing, etc. But what's funny is that the quoted text was also true before the coronavirus pandemic. Deadly airborne infectious diseases existed before COVID-19. Folks with preexisting conditions existed before COVID-19. The risk was lesser, but the possibility of death was still very real. But I doubt that  anyone would have cared if twelve months ago I tried to argue for common-sense precautions, despite the fact that, corona or no corona, _wearing a mask saves__ lives. _So getting up on your soapbox about this Karen person is hilariously self-righteous. What did she ever do to you, anyways. That meme is dumb.


----------



## Olly Buckle

My missus, who travels, reckons that in the East where there have been some previous nasties like sars masks have been the norm for anyone who didn't feel well, bit of a sniffle, wear a mask. It does make sense. 
I always used to wear one when we lived in London and I rode a bike to work or took the Northern line tube, but that was self protection. I used to get a mouth shaped grey patch after about half an hour, cities can be filthy places.


----------



## PiP

Jonathan Pie sums it up quite eloquently (Language)

<span class="oi732d6d ik7dh3pa d2edcug0 qv66sw1b c1et5uql a8c37x1j muag1w35 ew0dbk1b jq4qci2q a3bd9o3v knj5qynh oo9gr5id hzawbc8m" dir="auto">[video=youtube;wZQkBHysrig]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZQkBHysrig[/video]


----------



## Ibb

I remember a little over four (five?) months ago the world uniting in its mockery of people who wore masks in public, with experts broadcasting across national television that the masks weren't necessary and to please stop buying them, because only a so-implied idiot could think they did any good. While I wear a mask, keep to myself, and don't engage in the ongoing social media fights, I sympathize with the people who feel pulled back and forth by flimsy leadership saying one thing in March before flipping onto the next thing in April. This holier than thou attitude expressed by others saying to "Wear a mask, Karen," annoys me more than the people who've finally decided they're not going to listen to widespread inconsistency any longer. In an age of unfettered interconnectivity wherein everybody and their grandmother can have a voice, world leaders should have cupped their nuts a little harder and exhibited a greater degree of leadership. The fallout is their own doing, and the dissident public is well within their rights to tell them to fuck off. You can't gaslight/brainwash/manipulate/whatever word you like a million plus people every other day then expect them to gather in line and nod before every command. It's asinine. And when numerous leaders voiced their support for BLM at the same time myriad news channels were broadcasting images of buildings on fire and people punching eachother in the streets, shortly after telling people to stay the fuck away from eachother, it only exacerbated the frustration and mistrust.


----------



## Theglasshouse

I dont know the english equivalent. But I was recommended by my doctors IVERMECRTINA alpha 6 mg. It is currently sold everywhere where I live. It reduces the effects of the virus if you take it according to research my uncles who are doctors told me. It's traditionally used to kill parasites. What it does is lower the viruses in the body. They discovered this recently. It won't stop co-vid 19 but it gives you a much milder case of co-vid if you take 2 and repeat that after 2 days. Maybe it can be found on a web search. I haven't tried searching until now.


----------



## ppsage

Here's a (the one) paper I found googling: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166354220302011

Pretty preliminary and _in vitro_ study only but promising. Presumably though, the Thailand dengue phase III trial _(in vivo) _had been also preceded by encouraging results from culture studies. … They seem to be offering this more as a clinical therapy than as a preventative? I believe that's pretty standard with antivirals. ​


----------



## Theglasshouse

Thanks for looking it up. Supposedly I heard wrong but the best way to take it is at 2 per day. Preferbaly with a meal, and at the same time.

edit: now they told me it's for 2 days only (so I will take 4, I took 2 today and will take 2 tomorrow). In 20 days I have to take it again, just one pill. I am no doctor but that was how I was directed to take it. My mother told me who has 2 doctors in the family (her brothers).


----------



## TheManx

Well, I'm just very fortunate that my family hasn't had to suffer financially because of this crises, not yet anyway; and my heart goes out to everyone who has lost his or her job or livelihood or is stuck in lock-down in difficult circumstances...


----------



## Firemajic

97,000 children have died in the USA, since the last 2 weeks of July and the overall death toll is more than 163,252.... YET... the "President" wants the schools to open and he stated in a news conference that "Children are safe and that it is almost impossible for children to become infected with covid"... when reporters reminded him of the death toll, he said "People die, it is what it is"....

I was really scared when this pandemic started, then I was hopeful when the rate of infections started dropping... now... I am not ashamed to admit... I am terrified....


----------



## PiP

I am also terrified, Fire, Especially, when leaders make stupid statements like that. The man has no empathy ...

Behind every death there is human suffering because they die alone. No visitors ...


----------



## Firemajic

You are right, PiP... I have never witnessed so much chaos.... everywhere...

I want my life BACK!!! I want to meet my Sister for coffee at our favorite coffee shop.... I want to go to my favorite pizza place... I want to go to church and NOT feel like I am risking my life because I want to worship at my church.... I want to stop freaking out when my allergies flare up because it could be covid... I want to not watch another commercial about how "we are alone, together".... no, we are NOT alone together... I am just alone.... 

sorrry, but I am soooo sad about all the things I took for granted... like walking out my door not needing my mask and hand sanitizer.....


----------



## Firemajic

Firemajic said:


> 97,000 children have died in the USA, since the last 2 weeks of July and the overall death toll is more than 163,252.... YET... the "President" wants the schools to open and he stated in a news conference that "Children are safe and that it is almost impossible for children to become infected with covid"... when reporters reminded him of the death toll, he said "People die, it is what it is"....
> 
> I was really scared when this pandemic started, then I was hopeful when the rate of infections started dropping... now... I am not ashamed to admit... I am terrified....





Correction.... that is 93,000 children that have tested positive for the covid .....


----------



## Joker

The overwhelming majority of deaths have been the very old but okay...

This fear mongering and hand-wringing is exactly what governments want you to do. They used terrorism as an excuse to spy on you and now London has more CCTVs per square mile than Beijing. They used the fear of drugs to lock up young black boys for having a dime bag of weed to fill private prisons. They used our fear of poverty to keep struggling cities trapped in a cycle of government reliance.

Plagues have occurred since the dawn of civilization. You let yourself get worked up over things largely beyond man's control, and bad actors will abuse your trust to fix it.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Someone noticed quite recently that fear was a better motivator than most, and of course it is cheap. Politicians have been hammering it ever since.

There are also reasons for disease trends that are not directly related to the disease. In England emptying hospitals in preparation by returning a lot of people to care homes introduced covid into closed environments with vulnerable populations, a large percentage of deaths have been in such situations. Poor rates of pay to care workers and denial of health care to a lot of them who are migrant workers meant that people worked shifts in more than one home and carried on coming in when they felt ill, that didn't help. Old people who are not in homes have not suffered nearly so badly, suggesting such things distort the figures. The USA has suffered worse than most, but a bigger proportion of it s population is obese, which has a big effect on how badly it affects people, but most people are in denial about being fat, a recent study showed 80% of parents of clinically obese children did not recognise it, they thought they were normal, not even 'a bit overweight'. 


Yes there have been plagues since forever, and they have always scared people, probably more so when they did not understand the causes. During the 1300's when plague spread across Europe travelers were few, most people spent their lives in a small radius of home, there were no airplanes, trains, anything like that to spread it, and it reduced the population of England by between a third and a quarter during that century, (There were a series of bad summers in the 1350's that didn't help, but mainly down to plague). People were scared stiff, it was all beyond their control because of ignorance. Now we have the knowledge to control things and it is not being applied, mostly for 'economic' reasons. Personally I don't give a damn if the exceedingly rich end up just moderately wealthy.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Today, "Ministers say they have no plans for introducing masks in the workplace"

Bet you masks in the workplace are mandatory within a week to ten days.


----------



## Theglasshouse

My brother has been reading on corona virus research. He told me in a conversation that the corona virus stays in the air for 9 hours. Taking a bath is needed when you return home. Every time you leave the house.

If you have the air conditioner on it can circulate from one room to the next by itself moving around. 

Also it is worth mentioning your house should always have all Windows open.

In the car it also means you should have the Windows open because poor ventilation means you will spread the virus in the air ( if you have it). It travels easily in air conditioner.


----------



## PiP

I always shower and scrub my skin and abandon my clothes outside the house, after I have been to the hospital, especially after one occasion the staff never closed off the lift and we followed an emergency admission of a corona virus patient directly afterwards. Long story. 

We take the same precautions whenever we come into close contact with a lot of people. We even socially-distance with friends because of my frequent visits to hospital. 

I think i have moved beyond beyond fearing the virus to respecting it.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Theglasshouse said:


> My brother has been reading on corona virus research. He told me in a conversation that the corona virus stays in the air for 9 hours.


Research is showing that it can survive for long periods on a lot of surfaces, including your hands, but alcohol kills it within fifteen seconds. You can't help touching things when you are out, from cups to door handles we do it without a thought. Carry a bottle of hand sanitizer with you and use it as soon as you leave anywhere. It is amazing how often we touch our faces without noticing.


----------



## dither

Maybe that guy in Belarus was on to something when he said  drinking vodka and taking saunas was the way to go.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Warming up the respiratory system certainly affect the diseases that infect it, it's temperature is a bit lower than the rest of the body and they like that. Maybe you should simply gargle with the vodka and rub it all over yourself though


----------



## Theglasshouse

Olly Buckle said:


> Research is showing that it can survive for long periods on a lot of surfaces, including your hands, but alcohol kills it within fifteen seconds. You can't help touching things when you are out, from cups to door handles we do it without a thought. Carry a bottle of hand sanitizer with you and use it as soon as you leave anywhere. It is amazing how often we touch our faces without noticing.





Olly Buckle said:


> Warming up the respiratory system certainly affect the diseases that infect it, it's temperature is a bit lower than the rest of the body and they like that. Maybe you should simply gargle with the vodka and rub it all over yourself though


Thanks for the tip in the first quote. I will keep it in mind. We do have some alcohol sanitizer for carrying around and for home. Maybe it is much better than using soap. I tend to overuse soap so thanks for the tip.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Soap takes a little longer, I think twenty or thirty seconds, but alcohol is harsher on the skin. I tend to wash my hands if I am home, but that is not always possible/convenient on the occasions when I am out and about, that's when I use the sanitizer. Mind, I hardly go out nowadays


----------



## EternalGreen

Accepting that the virus can kill you regardless of age will scare you to death.

Denying that the virus can kill you will choke you to death.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Double post, sorry.


----------



## Olly Buckle

It's a lockdown

But they are not shutting schools,
And restaurants can still do takeaways
and pubs can still sell beer to take out
And garden centers are open
and launderettes are open 
and you can still get click and collect on non-essential goods,
and libraries will be open for click and collect and to use computers,
and tennis players and golfers are lobbying for permission to carry on,

and, and, and, is there any point?

Me, I'm staying home, watching the numbers go up on the telly, not that you can rely on them, and listening to Independent Sage.


----------



## dither

Same here Mr.Buckle.


----------



## Olly Buckle

So why have the government rushed through legislation giving Pfizer immunity from prosecution over their vaccine? That is a real confidence booster, not. If it was tested properly surely they wouldn't need it? Apparently the head of Pfizer refused to comment. I was quite looking forward to a 90% chance of immunity, I'm not so sure now.


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## Theglasshouse

To be honest an uncle of mine is refusing to take any they may have available. He is a doctor. Even though he has worded it in a peculiar way: "It's for population reduction." Mind you he is telling that to us. However, there is some truth and some parts that don't ring true. He knows that a vaccine takes 10 years or more to know the side effects or more. That is true since it usually takes that long for pharmacy companies to release any drug on the market. It's always pending approval by the FDA or some other organization. The internet shares public knowledge. I am sure some not so self-interested individuals hold this point of view. I don't want to make it sound like a conspiracy like he worded it. He is probably saying that in case that happens to be a situation we are in one day.


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## H.Brown

Olly Buckle said:


> So why have the government rushed through legislation giving Pfizer immunity from prosecution over their vaccine? That is a real confidence booster, not. If it was tested properly surely they wouldn't need it? Apparently the head of Pfizer refused to comment. I was quite looking forward to a 90% chance of immunity, I'm not so sure now.



Olly, I'm with you on this one.

As a carer worker in a care home apparently we will be some of the first to get the vaccine but we went from a vaccine won't be ready for some time yet, ro a month later we have a vaccine, it scares me alot...


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## Theglasshouse

Sorry to say this H. Brown. In some parts of the world. Healthcare workers are the first to get it.

At least we can take some solace in the fact that if they give some sort of herd immunity of 75% that it won't be nearly as threatening to people.


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## Olly Buckle

H.Brown said:


> Olly, I'm with you on this one.
> 
> As a carer worker in a care home apparently we will be some of the first to get the vaccine but we went from a vaccine won't be ready for some time yet, ro a month later we have a vaccine, it scares me alot...



I am over 75 and immuno suppressed, so I am well up in the priority to receive it. There have been some people who are much more credible than the blonde blusterer saying they believe it is safe, but it makes me wonder why? I wonder if it is in case there should be some sort of long term effect that would only show after a year or more? I have never heard of such a thing, but I can well imagine a lawyer wanting indemnity in case. Over all I don't really feel worried so much as curious, even if there was some sort of problem along the line the chance of being the one affected is small compared with the risk to me if I catch covid, which would be fairly likely sooner or later.

Mostly my beef is that things are mismanaged on a false premise or two. 'Keep it under control until we discover enough to eradicate it without hurting the economy too much' is one, there is no guarantee of you eradicating it, and in the long run it costs the economy more. If counties like Korea can get rid of it and then jump on ten cases why can't we? They are an advanced economy with international contacts. In Australia Victoria is allowing manufacturing to re-open with one third of workers because there has not been a case for a month. It is not quite business as usual, but neither are hundreds of people dying every day.

Unfortunately we are living somewhere where they are and probably will be for a while, which makes me quite likely to be one of them sooner or later, so I may be curious about some of the things politicians say, but I will still have it like a shot. (get that?)


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## Pamelyn Casto

I worry about taking it too. I haven't heard that Pfizer gets immunity from prosecution . . . that's a big worry. Is this typical for medicines/ vaccines to get immunity from prosecution? Do the other manufacturers of the vaccine get protected from lawsuits? I've often worried too how this *could* turn into a population reduction maneuver. I don't like thinking that but others have done it in the past (have weeded out those they considered undesirable). . . so it's not out of the realm of possibility. (It's always disturbed me too that the frakkers don't have to reveal the chemicals they use.) Dr. Fauci, the U.S.'s expert on the topic of Covid-19, says he'll take the vaccine and will gladly have his family take it too. So that gives me some comfort because I tend to trust him and don't imagine he'd lie to us about such a serious topic. But even honest experts can make mistakes . . . At this point, I'm likely going to take it. But this immunity from prosecutions really worries me.


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## H.Brown

I know it has been a worrying year to be fair. If I need to have it to protect the vulnerable people I look after of course I will have it. I'm just worried about the far reaching or later consequences of taking a vaccine that seems to have been rushed. I am sure only time will tell.

@Olly Buckle- one thing I have thought throughout the governments handling of the virus is that money is more important than saving lives.


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## Olly Buckle

H.Brown said:


> @Olly Buckle- one thing I have thought throughout the governments handling of the virus is that money is more important than saving lives.



Yes, to some it is, but I think that they are doubly wrong, not only is it morally wrong, I think it is actually costing them more. Take New Zealand where the Prime Minister said at the beginning, "No unnecessary deaths on my watch." They have been covid free for ages, there was an incident when they gave a couple of guys permission to visit their dying mother and another when they discovered it had survived on some imported frozen goods, but they were on top of them straight away and got rid of it again. That must have saved them a fortune when you compare with the money the British government spends not really trying to eradicate anything. 

Pamelyn. It is not just the people it kills, one of my friends who is in his late thirties had it and spent thirty days on a ventilator and then a further two months waking with sticks, exhausted by the time he got to the end of the garden. They tell us about the people who die, and yes, if they are ancient or disabled some way I suppose some cold bastards would see them as expendable. But there is a lot  of loss from those who are able and eventually recover, or make a partial recovery, and the cold bastards work in balance sheets. 
I know very little about the indemnity, but it is a new thing, they had to change British law. I did notice it doesn't only apply to the manufacturers, but to those who distribute and administer it as well, so maybe it is because there are such difficulties about keeping it at ultra low temperature whilst it is distributed.

Call me old fashioned if you like, but I do think straightforward and honest is always best in the long run, blusterers and purveyors of half truths like Trump and Johnson breed suspicion and non-cooperation in the long run.


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## H.Brown

Olly Buckle said:


> Yes, to some it is, but I think that they are doubly wrong, not only is it morally wrong, I think it is actually costing them more. Take New Zealand where the Prime Minister said at the beginning, "No unnecessary deaths on my watch." They have been covid free for ages, there was an incident when they gave a couple of guys permission to visit their dying mother and another when they discovered it had survived on some imported frozen goods, but they were on top of them straight away and got rid of it again. That must have saved them a fortune when you compare with the money the British government spends not really trying to eradicate anything.
> 
> Pamelyn. It is not just the people it kills, one of my friends who is in his late thirties had it and spent thirty days on a ventilator and then a further two months waking with sticks, exhausted by the time he got to the end of the garden. They tell us about the people who die, and yes, if they are ancient or disabled some way I suppose some cold bastards would see them as expendable. But there is a lot  of loss from those who are able and eventually recover, or make a partial recovery, and the cold bastards work in balance sheets.
> I know very little about the indemnity, but it is a new thing, they had to change British law. I did notice it doesn't only apply to the manufacturers, but to those who distribute and administer it as well, so maybe it is because there are such difficulties about keeping it at ultra low temperature whilst it is distributed.
> 
> Call me old fashioned if you like, but I do think straightforward and honest is always best in the long run, blusterers and purveyors of half truths like Trump and Johnson breed suspicion and non-cooperation in the long run.



Straight forward and honest is always the best policy, but unfortunately our government and probably other governments don't seem to agree. I also think that if it had been handled differently we wouldn't have had so many deaths or those now suffering with long covid.


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## Xander416

Olly Buckle said:


> So why have the government rushed through legislation giving Pfizer immunity from prosecution over their vaccine? That is a real confidence booster, not. If it was tested properly surely they wouldn't need it?


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## matthew1959

My concern is that they are compressing something into months that normally takes years.  I live alone, so I think I'll let others be the Guinee pigs before I get it.  In most cases I believe the simplest and most logical explanation is usually correct. 

I love a good conspiracy theory, it's just like a good fiction novel or movie.  You have to sit back and enjoy it, because it falls apart as soon as you look at it too closely.  I drive my daughter nuts because I have destroyed entire movies by pointing out a single plot hole.  When I was in Bible college we had a terrible flood on the Mississippi River.  When I got back to school from Easter break, I convinced several in the dorm that the flooding was so bad a whale had made it all the way up the river to Illinois.  I had an explanation for every question they raised and they bought the story, hook, line and sinker.

It has always fascinated me the way people believe things that are demonstrably untrue.  I saw this article that was fascinating.  It was an experiment to understand the thinking of people who are unwilling to change their belief and given a chance to acquire new information will refuse.  It seems to me to be very closely related to conspiracy theorists.  This was not a conservative/liberal thing since both sides of the political/social spectrum have dogmatic conspiracy believers.
https://www.psypost.org/2020/11/new-psychology-study-provides-insight-into-fundamental-cognitive-processes-linked-to-dogmatism-58651


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## Terry D

Olly Buckle said:


> So why have the government rushed through legislation giving Pfizer immunity from prosecution over their vaccine? That is a real confidence booster, not. If it was tested properly surely they wouldn't need it? Apparently the head of Pfizer refused to comment. I was quite looking forward to a 90% chance of immunity, I'm not so sure now.



In the normal run of things the curve from development through testing to roll-out would have taken longer with larger sample sizes and more long-term studies, but, when responding to a rapidly spreading, lethal disease, more time would have meant more lives lost. If you are a drowning man you might prefer a well designed life vest, but you would probably settle for a hastily chucked deck-chair. (Not the best metaphor, but you get the idea.)


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## Theglasshouse

The logistics of covering the entire world is a plan that not everyone knows how it will play out yet. But someday everyone will have to take it. I wonder if they will create some new legislation where it is mandatory. Let's hope it's effective. 10% not effective might not be good enough for a lot of people. Maybe the improvement will improve further down the road. But we can't know for sure what the improvement will be or if we will close the gap to 100%. Let's hope.


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## Olly Buckle

Theglasshouse said:


> The logistics of covering the entire world is a plan that not everyone knows how it will play out yet. But someday everyone will have to take it. I wonder if they will create some new legislation where it is mandatory. Let's hope it's effective. 10% not effective might not be good enough for a lot of people. Maybe the improvement will improve further down the road. But we can't know for sure what the improvement will be or if we will close the gap to 100%. Let's hope.



Firstly there is no need to cover the entire world, there are places where it has been eradicated, or nearly eradicated, by test and tracking and tracing contacts of those who test positive, then keeping them isolated.
Secondly it doesn't need everybody to be immune, if about 60% of people have immunity the number of people that someone with the disease can pass it on to drops below an average of one, then the disease will die out over time. That was what happened with smallpox and has almost happened with polio, not everyone got vaccinated.


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## Olly Buckle

Terry D said:


> In the normal run of things the curve from development through testing to roll-out would have taken longer with larger sample sizes and more long-term studies, but, when responding to a rapidly spreading, lethal disease, more time would have meant more lives lost. If you are a drowning man you might prefer a well designed life vest, but you would probably settle for a hastily chucked deck-chair. (Not the best metaphor, but you get the idea.)



Quite so, as I say in a later post, even in a worst case scenario it is most unlikely that the shot would cause me more damage than the disease, I fit most of the vulnerable categories.


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## Theglasshouse

The disease is rampant and many will need to take it in order to lessen casualties which is the bigger picture or smaller according to some. According to my little brother who works in Switzerland in an embassy in an international organization it is a current project. I asked him and that is what he has probably been hearing. He listens to these sort things often when working. It's a common thing to overhear. Let's not forget in many countries many people cannot practice social distancing since they must work to survive. That would be in very poor countries, and the vulnerable and innocent such as children as you can imagine can come into contact with other people who are considered older. The education they have from parents and schools is not complete.


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## ppsage

Here's my take on the indemnity deal. When you're developing a new drug, first you inject ten strapping lads to see if any drop dead instantly. Then a hundred for side effects and finally 20,000, who are paired with an equal number to also test efficacy. In a perfect probabilistic world, you have now caught all side effects occurring at greater than one time in 20,000. I suspect this to be an actuarial breakeven number supplied by insurers. In any case, at this point you would normally buy insurance against claims for rarer adverse effects. However, in a major public health crisis, you have lots of leverage with government, so you try to get them to pay those bills.


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## Olly Buckle

Heard a new worry yesterday, apparently people who had previously had covid were excluded from the test groups. That makes sense, no point testing to see if people develop antibodies if you know they already have them. The concern was that as the Pfizer vaccine works in a different way it could trigger a response in people who had already had the virus. As a lot of people get it asymptomatically ...

Not really a problem at the moment as they are vaccinating people who would have been unlikely to get away with it that easily. Probably not a problem in the long run either as the more traditional vaccines which are coming along are much cheaper, and easier to transport, so are much more likely to be used in mass vaccination programs. What we are seeing at the moment is an attempt to protect the vulnerable. It is not widespread enough to have much, if any, effect on the spread of the disease, but an antibody test before vaccination might be good. 

@ ppsage, yes, that sounds like a probable scenario, just the sort of thing a company lawyer would dream up.


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## luckyscars

Normally with a new vaccine it takes years so you can measure not just immediate side effects but long term ones. It's amazing how people are so paranoid about this vaccine, as though it's not obvious that the usual standards do not apply but nonetheless that _sufficient _testing has been done to ensure that it is safe to an extremely high likelihood of probability.

I'm not a fan of Pfizer and the rest of these bastard drug companies by any stretch, but it's pretty damn obvious that no company is going to put out a vaccine (or any product) that they aren't extremely sure is palatably safe to everybody who might possibly take it. That just isn't how corporations operate. Coca Cola didn't remove cocaine from their product because they have a conscience and they didn't remove it because it wasn't tasty. They removed it because of PR and the associated profit impact.

Hypothetically, being known as the guys who came up with a vaccine that is later found to turn frogs gay or toddlers autistic is going to destroy Pfizer. They aren't going to risk that for a few billion dollars and some short-term attaboys. The risk of a dangerous vaccine is greater than the benefit. They will not put a product that kills or significantly harms their consumers into the marketplace over something this high profile, because their company will not survive the blowback in the marketplace. There is nobody on the planet as competent and trustworthy as a profit-driven corporation who can't financially absorb the damages of fucking it up.


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## Olly Buckle

> It's amazing how people are so paranoid about this vaccine,



I don't think so, people seem to be generally paranoid about vaccines, though I don't know why most of the time. It seems to be a subject that attracts misinformation.


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## Phil Istine

It's not something I would normally write, but an ex-girlfriend's mother died within minutes of having a vaccine.  It happened on the European mainland.  This was about thirty years ago and she never made it out of the waiting room.  I don't know the full details and it may be that the vaccine was nothing to do with her death, but it sounds suspicious.  I don't even know what she was being vaccinated against.  Absurdly, her husband had been a doctor, though due to his death (from cancer), he pre-deceased her.  I imagine such cases are far fewer than one in a million and may be autoimmune linked (though I don't think anyone can say with certainty).
I also knew someone who died in the operating theatre while having a minor operation to a couple of toes - I believe that was about a blood clot.

If people are seeking guaranteed, risk-free medicine, they won't find it, but the rule of thumb is about the risks and rewards of vaccination vs. non-vaccination.  To me, it seems pretty clear that vaccinating is an extremely low-risk way, and the risks with not vaccinating are far higher.


----------



## luckyscars

Olly Buckle said:


> I don't think so, people seem to be generally paranoid about vaccines, though I don't know why most of the time. It seems to be a subject that attracts misinformation.



The reason I believe is because we don’t, most of us, understand how they work. It’s probably one of the stupider instincts we have as a species, honestly. It’s the same general reason any conspiracies and prejudices more broadly take root: “I don’t individually understand this, therefore it’s evil/harmful/worthless.”


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## Pamelyn Casto

Phil Istine said:


> If people are seeking guaranteed, risk-free medicine, they won't find it, but the rule of thumb is about the risks and rewards of vaccination vs. non-vaccination.  To me, it seems pretty clear that vaccinating is an extremely low-risk way, and the risks with not vaccinating are far higher.



Thanks, all, for this discussion. It's all so confusing and terribly frightening. I want to add to what Phil Istine is saying above. 

Because of things some of you (all) are saying I decided to take a quick look at an old case of drug "failure" to see what I might learn. Thalidomyde was considered one of the safest drugs ever invented, and it was routinely prescribed as a sedative for pregnant women. But then the side-effects began turning up. For instance, children were born with seal-flipper appendages instead of normal arms (and many other major problems). The drug was then banned in 48 countries. 

Some time later someone discovered the deformities could happen during a few days of a woman's pregnancy. This small period of time combined with the drug produced devastating results for some unfortunate children (and for their parents). 

The drug, they found, had other major uses so it's back in use again. That surprised me. I had no idea. I, in my ignor-ance, thought it had been banned and that was the end of it. But it's still in use because it's a drug that helps other people with severe problems. But it isn't to be prescribed for pregnant women. 

So in my short look at thalidomide I learned something new about its history. Now I'm back to what Phil is saying-- there are no guarantees. We take our chances with a vaccine or without a vaccine for Covid-19. At this point I'll be taking the vaccine and will keep my fingers crossed that I've made the best choice for the protection of me and for the protection of those around me. 

I hope for safety and health for us all. I appreciate this discussion so much. I feel less alone when people are talking about it . . . together.


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## luckyscars

Pamelyn Casto said:


> So in my short look at thalidomide I learned something new about its history. Now I'm back to what Phil is saying-- there are no guarantees. We take our chances with a vaccine or without a vaccine for Covid-19. At this point I'll be taking the vaccine and will keep my fingers crossed that I've made the best choice for the protection of me and for the protection of those around me.



You're not wrong, Pamelyn, but the problem with this kind of thing is it lends legitimacy to anti-vaccination 'campaigners' who jump at the chance to willingly distort 'there are no guarantees regarding vaccination safety' into the terrible, damaging, unscientific claims that 'vaccines are dangerous'.

Not saying you're doing that at all, only that it goes back to the stupidity of the general public who simply don't understand what 'no guarantees' means. There are no guarantees of the safety of hardly anything. Almost anything can provoke some sort of deadly reaction, such as an allergy. The same people who will often happily ingest all manner of essential oils and 'natural' remedies (vaccines are natural remedies, of course) and eat foods with all manner of chemical components (which are also, for the record, generally speaking safe) have this weird paranoia with vaccines. Perhaps only because vaccines are administered by people in lab coats and don't come in pretty packaging and are a bit 'scary'. Maybe Pfizer should set up a sub-company called 'Whole Foods Health' and put out an 'organic' vaccine...which will be essentially identical to their actual vaccine, because their actual vaccine is already probably pretty 'organic'.

Thalidomide is interesting. Thalidomide was not technically a vaccine but an orally taken medication which wound up affecting about 10,000 people worldwide over the span of several years. I'm not sure if there is an example of a vaccine that resulted in a similar scandal in modern times -- can't think of one -- but either way...without wanting to minimize how bad the Thalidomide Scandal was, the track record of medication generally is pretty darn good if the totality of those affected by 'bad meds' couldn't even fill Yankee Stadium. Statistically, it makes as much sense to believe a vaccine can be dangerous as a seatbelt and airbag: That is, they _can _be dangerous -- as can a toaster, a boiler, an airplane, a pencil and a pressure cooker -- but there is no way the risk is comparable to the benefit.

Personally, I hope they make the Covid vaccination mandatory as a condition of engaging in employment and other social spheres of the future society (not that they will, because America). I would support the government taking whatever actions they deem necessary to ensure the public is protected against any life-threatening disease. Communicable diseases are one aspect where individual choice should be overruled, in my opinion. Because they are communicable.


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## PiP

My husband is allergic to penicillin ... so he may need to wait for the Oxford vaccine. We will see ... either way, he has to have a vaccine as he falls into the high-risk category for COVID and we have been shielding since March.


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## Pamelyn Casto

Thanks for the post, luckyscars. No one, not a single one of us, is promised a tomorrow--virus or no virus, vaccine or no vaccine. This is called life, I guess. We are in it to eventually *not* be in it. All we can possibly do is look into and weigh the risks of anything and (maybe) everything and hope we've made the best choices. 

Yes, our diets (for instance) can be devastating to our health, as can smoking, lack of exercise, driving a car, etc. But we make our choices-- careful diet or sloppy diet, smoking or not smoking, drive or stay home, getting exercise or not getting exercise . . . and the beat goes on. 

And more on the thalidomide, it's also important to know (I think) that the drug that was initially banned has beneficial uses for other medical problems. It's horrible what happened to those children (and to their families). That was a matter of timing-- when during their pregnancies women who were prescribed the drug ended up with these devastating results. It's safe for other uses, we later learned. So again, no easy answers and no guarantees. We have to make our choices and take our chances. The vaccine seems like a risk worth taking. 

In the U.S. we might have access to the vaccine as early as Monday or Tuesday. Who gets it and how and where we get it remains to be seen. I hope it truly is help that's soon arriving.


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## OatmealMan

Have any of y'all ever read any Peter Watts? I think a lot of his writing has to do with pandemics and disasters and the world's inability to deal with them. Specifically his Rifters series. One thing he writes about is this increasing trend toward authoritarianism as governments and institutions try to prevent the "system" of civilization (or this iteration of global civilization) from collapsing. I think his viewpoint is that these sorts of outbreaks and catastrophes are inevitable, and our global power structure is inevitably going to be broken up by them.


----------



## Phil Istine

Pamelyn Casto said:


> Thanks, all, for this discussion. It's all so confusing and terribly frightening. I want to add to what Phil Istine is saying above.
> 
> Because of things some of you (all) are saying I decided to take a quick look at an old case of drug "failure" to see what I might learn. Thalidomyde was considered one of the safest drugs ever invented, and it was routinely prescribed as a sedative for pregnant women. But then the side-effects began turning up. For instance, children were born with seal-flipper appendages instead of normal arms (and many other major problems). The drug was then banned in 48 countries.
> 
> Some time later someone discovered the deformities could happen during a few days of a woman's pregnancy. This small period of time combined with the drug produced devastating results for some unfortunate children (and for their parents).
> 
> The drug, they found, had other major uses so it's back in use again. That surprised me. I had no idea. I, in my ignor-ance, thought it had been banned and that was the end of it. But it's still in use because it's a drug that helps other people with severe problems. But it isn't to be prescribed for pregnant women.
> 
> So in my short look at thalidomide I learned something new about its history. Now I'm back to what Phil is saying-- there are no guarantees. We take our chances with a vaccine or without a vaccine for Covid-19. At this point I'll be taking the vaccine and will keep my fingers crossed that I've made the best choice for the protection of me and for the protection of those around me.
> 
> I hope for safety and health for us all. I appreciate this discussion so much. I feel less alone when people are talking about it . . . together.




I believe thalidomide was given to counteract morning sickness rather than as a sedative.  I actually knew a guy who was born with one arm, though I didn't come to know him until we were adults.  Obviously, it had major repercussions on his life.  He ended up becoming a drug addict and ended up topping himself.  Maybe that would have happened anyway, maybe not.

I have already had a 24-week course of antivirals many years ago; at the time it was the only known way to rid myself of a liver inflammation that would definitely have impacted on my quality of life eventually, and would probably have shortened my life.  Fortunately, the treatment worked.  However, I knew someone whose body didn't react well to the treatment and I believe the treatment killed him - probably via auto-immune reaction.  That was said to be one in a million too.  It seems weird that I've known, and known of, two people during my life who have suffered one-in-a-million reactions to medicines that likely killed them - my friend and my ex-girlfriend's mother (who I never met).  It's almost as if the medics say 'one in a million' in order to avoid anyone probing too far.
I'm not a particularly trusting person when it comes to authorities, whether they be political or medical, but I will have a covid-19 vaccine when my turn arrives.  I will be having my anti-flu shot tomorrow too.  It wouldn't surprise me if they end up finding a way of combining the covid vaccine with the flu shot eventually.

Considering that I used to self-medicate every day by IV injection for a number of years, it would be a little odd to concern myself with such a minute risk as having a vaccine.

As Ian Dury once sang:
"Got into a mess
on the N-H-S oh-ho..."


----------



## Pamelyn Casto

Phil Istine said:


> Phil Istine wrote:
> Considering that I used to self-medicate every day by IV injection for a number of years, it would be a little odd to concern myself with such a minute risk as having a vaccine.
> 
> ***Thanks for telling us about your medical history and the histories of some of your friends-- and all those risks taken. My friend went for a routine cataract removal procedure and ended up blind. He was told it was a million-to-one chance of that happening. I think, sometimes, "million-to-one" is a shorthand way of saying there is little risk in a big number way so we can quickly grasp the meaning/ statistics.
> 
> Fortunately, my friend was able to make the best of what happened to him. He was older and said he'd had a great life and couldn't complain about his last-minute blindness (as he called it). The risk my friend took that left him blind, produces amazing results in others whose sight is restored through the procedure.
> 
> Risks again, always risks in so many things we have to do-- vaccines, medical procedures, driving, etc. We could even choke while eating but we need food. I've taken flu vaccines yearly and was just fine. I anticipate that the Covid-19 vaccine risk will produce similar results. (Just as I imagine a cataract removal procedure will work out for most of us.) Life is risky business, that's for sure. I'm willing to take this risk (and hope to get the vaccine as soon as it's my turn to get it).


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## luckyscars

Statistically speaking, the risk of any FDA approved modern medication appears sufficiently low that it's not correct to describe there being a 'risk' at all. I'm not saying there isn't technically 'a risk', because there always is for almost everything, but that the *semantics* involved in a word like 'risk' or 'danger' or 'health concerns' are simply inappropriate. Consumers have shown they lack the ability to understand these terms properly.

For all the talk about thalidomide, it is actually a pretty safe and highly effective drug, with low 'risk' (other than among a very specific portion of the population, such as pregnant women), and this is why it remains commonly prescribed to this day. Yet, despite this, probably most people will only ever associate it with birth defects and disaster...because that is what ignorant people do. 

Vaccine skeptics will point to 10,000 or so deaths as evidence than it is harmful, but that's not how risk assessment works and the 'argument' is bad faith: At the risk of sounding a bit sinister, 10,000 or so deaths/injuries is totally irrelevant in the context of risk assessment for medicine and a sample size consisting of millions. It isn't quite the same as zero deaths/injuries, of course not, but it's far closer to 'safe' than 'unsafe'.

Then consider that sugar is consistently harmful to a far greater number of people (both in percentage and absolute terms) than any approved vaccine or other medication has ever been and likely will ever be, yet it's still quite uncommon to hear sugar ever described as being A Risk in serious terms, despite the fact it isn't even important nutritionally. Sure, we talk about _excessive _candy as being _bad for you _(mostly because it makes us fat), but almost never frame the issue in the context of being 'anti-sugar' or wanting to avoid it in an absolute sense -- nope, we use nuance for that stuff. Ditto processed carbohydrates. Ditto salt. Ditto lack of exercise. Ditto even marijuana (at least now). These are the things that could be described at some level of health risk, and yet vaccines receive an absurdly disproportionate level of 'concern'. Why is that?

I think we all know the answer, and it reeks of bias in favor of things we like and enjoy and distrust of things we don't. People don't like the idea of vaccinations and they certainly don't enjoy having to get them. People don't really like scientists -- fiction has spent years portraying guys in white coats as sociopaths and homicidal maniacs. The old stories featuring 'mad scientists' weren't just harmless tropes, it turned out, but sly propaganda and a means to achieve a sense of superiority over those who were smarter than the rest of us. It's just another tedious outlet for the anti-elitism grift, essentially. So, no, I find the 'wHaT iF iTs nOt sAfE?' stuff to be bad faith garbage and am happy to sign on to the proposition that Vaccines Do Not Carry Risk. The people who ask the question already have the answer they believe.


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## Olly Buckle

The sugar comparison has much more validity then th e thalidomide one I can't help feeling; sugar bad, vaccination good.


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## Phil Istine

There are various drugs that were inappropriate for some uses but okay for uses other than their original intentions.  A classic example is interferon.  When it was first beginning to emerge (1960/70s), it was mooted as a possible cure for cancer.  That proved to be too ambitious, but uses were found for it later - often in combination with other medicines.  For twenty years it was used as a resolution for hepatitis-c.  Originally, the success rates were fairly low, but when ribavirin was added the cure rates improved immensely to 50/50 or even as good as 80/20, depending on genotype.  Also, I understand that one of the covid-19 treatments is based on a medicine that was intended as a help with meningitis.


----------



## Pamelyn Casto

Good post, luckscars. Semantics, semantics, all the way down. Yep. There is a big problem in that we ignor-ati are often too busy trying to earn a living, or fighting with in-laws, or trying to find a good restaurant, etc., and we usually have to rely on what others tell us about almost any situation. 

A friend of mine is having some breathing problems. Her doctor prescribed a medication that says in the warning document (that we in the U.S. get with all meds) that this drug can cause death through breathing problems. Warnings like that, necessary as they can be, have carry health risks too. My friend is scared, is in a state of high tension, and is trying to figure out what she should do-- trust her doctor or trust the document that protects the drug companies (in that document they are warning her of what could happen).   

Plus, we members of the vast ignor-ati have to rely on the news media, things said by our government officials, the words of politicians (who have their reasons for the way they phrase things), and rely on our friends and relatives who receive dire warnings then pass them along to us via email or text messages. The well-meaning friends and relatives don't usually bother checking the validity of what they're passing along but their intention is to save us from this threat, this poison, this vaccine, this whatever.   

What helps a lot is being able to be part of a group like this, where these things can be discussed in a more reasonable and thoughtful manner. Words and how we use them matter. 

What I often find amusing is that I (like everyone else) receive warnings all the time, from all directions, and I admit I am relieved when I learn that a product no longer contains PBA (I think that's the ingredient and I have no idea what it is and don't want to know more right now) or when a product is touted as having electrolytes (again, I have no idea what that is either and don't particularly need to know more at this point). There just isn't enough time to investigate everything. You've all helped me a lot through this discussion. Thank you.


----------



## luckyscars

The other piece that people don't take into consideration is that just because a vaccine's development seems rushed or untested does not mean it actually is. The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are RNA vaccines, a mechanism that is very well understood and has been used for other vaccines for decades now with an excellent track record of safety and effectiveness. The Oxford and other vaccines are adenovirus based and create immunity through proteins, again these are very sound, traditional platforms and not at all weird. In addition, Coronaviruses in general have been studied heavily since the the original SARS epidemic of 2004, so we already had a lot of this groundwork figured out. They did not have to create a new dish from scratch so much as simply adjust a recipe that already existed.

With that in mind, the only reason we didn't have vaccines months ago is because of the massive amount of testing, not because of anything else. They have been testing these on human beings since July and August and it's obvious to any non-idiot who takes an hour to read beyond headlines that the speed of approval has nothing to do with cutting of the medical corners and is mostly about removing the red tape and waiting-at-the-back-of-the-line that your average non-pandemic-related medicine would have to go through, not to mention figuring out logistics, and other purely bureaucratic issues. 

If this was truly a cast of a untested/poorly-tested drug being rushed through out of desperation and political pressure, we would all have been vaccinated by now.


----------



## Phil Istine

*Mission Creep*

After this morning's announcement, I will be living 4 miles outside a Tier 3 (highest tier in England) covid restriction area and travelling into it some days to work.  Set up a level 5 force field, Captain.


----------



## Olly Buckle

It seems that some people are nervous of the vaccine because people have been emphasising the negative outcomes that can occur. It is true that people like pregnant women and those who have certain conditions can be really adversely affected by it. Let's face it there is some poor sod somewhere who is going to be adversely affected by just about anything, but in this case, because of the testing we know who those people are and we can avoid giving them the vaccine. What is important to them,however, is that the rest of us have the vaccine when we can, that way we reduce the incidence of the virus and that means the people who can not be protected will not be exposed to the disease. News reports keep emphasising the positive effects for the people receiving it, "It means I'll be able to hug my grandchildren..." etc. etc. , but to me the altruistic benefits seem far greater, people who live live with something that makes them vulnerable and precludes them from protection will not have to live in fear. 

My other argument would be that all vaccines cause unwanted effects in some people, sometimes severe, but the effects of the illness are always far worse overall, and if it can be used to wipe out the disease then nobody suffers any ill effects from either the disease or the vaccine ever again. I see it as socially responsible, not just personally beneficial .


----------



## SueC

Phil Istine said:


> *Mission Creep*
> 
> After this morning's announcement, I will be living 4 miles outside a Tier 3 (highest tier in England) covid restriction area and travelling into it some days to work.  Set up a level 5 force field, Captain.




I just saw on the news that England is cancelling Christmas. Everyone here is freaking out. This is scary all over again.


----------



## Phil Istine

SueC said:


> I just saw on the news that England is cancelling Christmas. Everyone here is freaking out. This is scary all over again.



Yes, since I posted that the government has announced far tighter restrictions - including over Christmas.  I now live in what is classified as a tier 2 area and the heathens that live beyond the boundary are in tier 4.  Rules are becoming very confusing, even for someone like me who keeps up.  I am still allowed to my friend's house for Christmas Day but have had to cancel a visit to another friend on the 27th.  I might as well work between Christmas and New Year as it's the only way I will see other people unless I spend time walking aimlessly around a supermarket or meeting someone for an outdoor walk in mid-winter.

My friend's elderly father lives a mile inside the forbidden zone and it looks like the poor old sod might have to spend Christmas alone.  One way or another I'll make sure that doesn't happen, even if we have to take food to his house and eat in his garden with him eating inside.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Yes, the new regulations started at midnight last night and everyone went mad apparently, there were pictures on the news of packed trains with people getting out of London before it went into virtual lockdown, well thought out Boris, we'll see how much the numbers go up everywhere in a week or so as a result of that. We were planning to deliver presents to the younger daughter in Hammersmith on Monday and spend Christmas day with the older one in Balham. Instead I drove up to town yesterday before the regs came into force and delivered presents, the girls came out and collected them so I didn't even get out of the car, but I got a cup of tea and three hot mince pies brought out to me 

I see that teachers and care homes are refusing to apply the lateral flow tests. Too right, they are expected to supply all the labour to do it on top of their work load, which has been increased by covid anyway, and the tests only detect 48.9% of cases, which makes them pretty pointless. I wonder which of the government's chums are supplying these at huge profit? Or is that just my cynicism? Either way it seems they are preparing to waste huge amounts of public money to little or no effect yet again.


----------



## -xXx-

*puts another glow stick in the window*
*next to the pivot bizness plan*
*and new printer*
*contemplates*
*import.ant(s)*

*<3
*


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## Phil Istine

Wonderful stuff - at 00.01 AM on Boxing Day my area goes from covid tier 2 to tier 4 in one mighty leap.  If I don't get home from my friend's place on Christmas Day before midnight, my van will turn into a pumpkin.

For me, personally, it changes little as I've been exceeding the legal requirements anyway.


----------



## PiP

What gets my goat are stupid tourists... The Uk is being shunned by many European countries due to the more virulent strain of COVID which is decimating many parts of the UK ... and yet they still post on expat FB groups. 
'Oh.. I want to fly to Portugal for Christmas and the New Year, has anyone got and apartment I can rent?' 
'Er... no... Portugal is closed to UK tourists'
and
'Only Portuguese citizens and residents of Portugal can enter, and only then if they have tested negative for COVID in the last 72 hrs'
''Yeah, but I need to get out of the UK as it's not safe, how can I ...'

I finally replied

'There is always one special snowflake who thinks the rules don't apply to them. STAY AT HOME!!!!!!! there is a f******g pandemic for God's sake!'

On reflection my words were a little harsh, but we have been shielding since March thanks to COV-+-idiots who refuse to wear masks (not medical exceptions) and hippies and tourists who do not give a damn as long as they have a good time.

Bah humbug


----------



## Monaque

PiP said:


> What gets my goat are stupid tourists... The Uk is being shunned by many European countries due to the more virulent strain of COVID which is decimating many parts of the UK ... and yet they still post on expat FB groups.
> 'Oh.. I want to fly to Portugal for Christmas and the New Year, has anyone got and apartment I can rent?'
> 'Er... no... Portugal is closed to UK tourists'
> and
> 'Only Portuguese citizens and residents of Portugal can enter, and only then if they have tested negative for COVID in the last 72 hrs'
> ''Yeah, but I need to get out of the UK as it's not safe, how can I ...'
> 
> I finally replied
> 
> 'There is always one special snowflake who thinks the rules don't apply to them. STAY AT HOME!!!!!!! there is a f******g pandemic for God's sake!'
> 
> On reflection my words were a little harsh, but we have been shielding since March thanks to COV-+-idiots who refuse to wear masks (not medical exceptions) and hippies and tourists who do not give a damn as long as they have a good time.
> 
> Bah humbug


Totally get what you are saying. My sister was telling me about someone who overheard someone boasting that they had succeeded in fleeing London after the tier 4 restrictions had been announced. This included someone else who had organized it for them, apparently. People can be so selfish sometimes. It's not the end of the world if you stay in your homes for one Christmas.
Unless it is...the end of the world! :hororr:


----------



## Pamelyn Casto

PiP said:


> 'There is always one special snowflake who thinks the rules don't apply to them. STAY AT HOME!!!!!!! there is a f******g pandemic for God's sake!'
> 
> On reflection my words were a little harsh, but we have been shielding since March thanks to COV-+-idiots who refuse to wear masks (not medical exceptions) and hippies and tourists who do not give a damn as long as they have a good time.



***Good for you, PiP. Tell 'em. No harshness at all. I get so fed up with the jerks around here (U.S.) who think their good time is all that counts. Or those who think wearing a mask is too far beneath them. Like you, I've been pretty much staying out of the world since March-- hoping to protect myself and anyone I might come into contact with. I wouldn't dream of going in public without a mask. I'm also surprised that more violence hasn't taken place as people confront each other wearing or not wearing masks. To quote you: "STAY AT HOME!!!!!!! there is a f******g pandemic for God's sake!" That about sums it up for me too.


----------



## Phil Istine

PiP said:


> What gets my goat are stupid tourists... The Uk is being shunned by many European countries due to the more virulent strain of COVID which is decimating many parts of the UK ... and yet they still post on expat FB groups.
> 'Oh.. I want to fly to Portugal for Christmas and the New Year, has anyone got and apartment I can rent?'
> 'Er... no... Portugal is closed to UK tourists'
> and
> 'Only Portuguese citizens and residents of Portugal can enter, and only then if they have tested negative for COVID in the last 72 hrs'
> ''Yeah, but I need to get out of the UK as it's not safe, how can I ...'
> 
> I finally replied
> 
> 'There is always one special snowflake who thinks the rules don't apply to them. STAY AT HOME!!!!!!! there is a f******g pandemic for God's sake!'
> 
> On reflection my words were a little harsh, but we have been shielding since March thanks to COV-+-idiots who refuse to wear masks (not medical exceptions) and hippies and tourists who do not give a damn as long as they have a good time.
> 
> Bah humbug



I'm having to rely on what I've read elsewhere: it appears that the new strains (yes, two now detected) are widespread in Europe already, but the UK is being ostracised because our genome testing is better equipped.  In other words, we found what everyone else also has.  Therefore, border closures are not going to do much good  - apart from the already-established principle of minimising travel.

This may well be like that pandemic a hundred years ago being called Spanish flu.  It never originated in Spain - it's just that the Spanish were more upfront about it.  Of course, this may be the usual British politicians' bullshit that we've come to expect of late.  That's the trouble when politicians are untrustworthy - even when they're truthful about an issue it's hard to believe them.


----------



## PiP

Pamlyn, Monaque - I later felt embarassed by my choice of words. I miss my family in the UK and France and have not seen them for a year... We are fed up ... we live in a tourist area and this year in particular has been really busy as people flee from COVID hotspots to an area that had no 'reported' COVID cases. While people still continue to travel on a whim I see no end to this virus.



Phil Istine said:


> I'm having to rely on what I've read elsewhere: it appears that the new strains (yes, two now detected) are widespread in Europe already, but the UK is being ostracised because our genome testing is better equipped.  In other words, we found what everyone else also has.  Therefore, border closures are not going to do much good  - apart from the already-established principle of minimising travel.
> 
> This may well be like that pandemic a hundred years ago being called Spanish flu.  It never originated in Spain - it's just that the Spanish were more upfront about it.  Of course, this may be the usual British politicians' bullshit that we've come to expect of late.  That's the trouble when politicians are untrustworthy - even when they're truthful about an issue it's hard to believe them.



I wouldn't trust ANY politician as far as I could spit.  

the UK have certainly carried out the more tests per million people but that is not the figure I follow. Nearly had a row with my son over this because he does not believe in lockdowns etc. But I agreed to disagree and let the deaths per million speak for themselves. Talking to him about COVID was like talking to him about BREXIT.

UK 1015 FRance 949 and Portugal 623

We have followed the news and the situation in the UK unravel. 

It's mandatory here and in SPain to wear a mask in the street and it is enforced. And police carry guns. when we had full lockdown roads were blocked between municipalities (counties) by the GNR and people fined if they did not have a valid reason to travel.

I feel SO sorry for the lorry drivers who are caught up in the French blockade... maybe this will be a taste of what is to come with Brexit


----------



## Monaque

PiP said:


> Pamlyn, Monaque - I later felt embrassed by my choice of words. I miss my family in the UK and France and have not seen them for a year... We are fed up ... we live in a tourist area and this year in particular has been really busy as people flee from COVID hotspots to an area that had no 'reported' COVID cases. While people still continue to travel on a whim I see no end to this virus.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't trust ANY politician as far as I could spit.
> 
> the UK have certainly carried out the more tests per million people but that is not the figure I follow. Nearly had a row with my son over this because he does not believe in lockdowns etc. But I agreed to disagree and let the deaths per million speak for themselves. Talking to him about COVID was like talking to him about BREXIT.
> 
> UK 1015 FRance 949 and Portugal 623
> 
> We have followed the news and the situation in the UK unravel.
> 
> It's mandatory here and in SPain to wear a mask in the street and it is enforced. And police carry guns. when we had full lockdown roads were blocked between municipalities (counties) by the GNR and people fined if they did not have a valid reason to travel.
> 
> I feel SO sorry for the lorry drivers who are caught up in the French blockade... maybe this will be a taste of what is to come with Brexit


Please don't worry on my part, sometimes you need to vent, and don't talk to me about politicians, I can't point to single one of them I like. :icon_cheesygrin:


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## Olly Buckle

Those numbers of deaths probably are not comparable, PiP. It is not just that the countries have different size populations, it is probably the method of counting as well. That number is people who died within 28 days of a positive covid test, if you look at the number where covid is mentioned on the death certificate it is much higher, look at 'excess deaths', the number more than the average for the past few years at this time of year, and it is hugely higher. I don't know how those other countries assess it, but trust a politician to twist things to their advantage, the only way you can trust them. Trustworthy politicians are about as rare as rocking horse shit, but I have the feeling that if the SNP put up candidates in England they would get a majority, there are no other remotely socialist parties in Britain anymore.


----------



## Phil Istine

I'm thinking that the most accurate way to assess the number of covid deaths is to calculate the average death rate for time of year over the previous five years.  Then add on a small amount for increase in population over those five years.  Compare the two numbers.
It's also the case that part of the excess death number can be indirectly attributed to covid-19, because people may have been unable to receive timely treatment for other conditions.  It's not clear what proportion that might be but I imagine it would easily be a single-figure percentage.


----------



## Phil Istine

On a lighter note, only in England:

https://www.hampshirelive.news/news/hampshire-news/hampshire-lidl-border-aisles-tier-4819986


----------



## Olly Buckle

Have you red 'Pukoon' by Spike Milligan? Basically the same scenario, the village is split by the North South Irish border. Not over impressed by most of Spike's books, but this is one of the funniest books I have ever read.

Seems like the science is confirming the new strain is more infectious, at first I thought it was just the government finding something other than them to blame. They are to blame of course, if they had followed the Asian, Australasian rout of eradication rather than 'containment' no new strains would have developed. "The most efficient testing program in the world", it's on a par with "The most efficient border crossing in the world." Should we laugh or cry? Still as someone pointed out the Brexit mob got their way, no more Frenchmen coming over here, our border is secure.


----------



## Xander416

PiP said:


> What gets my goat are stupid tourists... The Uk is being shunned by many European countries due to the more virulent strain of COVID which is decimating many parts of the UK ... and yet they still post on expat FB groups.
> 'Oh.. I want to fly to Portugal for Christmas and the New Year, has anyone got and apartment I can rent?'
> 'Er... no... Portugal is closed to UK tourists'
> and
> 'Only Portuguese citizens and residents of Portugal can enter, and only then if they have tested negative for COVID in the last 72 hrs'
> ''Yeah, but I need to get out of the UK as it's not safe, how can I ...'
> 
> I finally replied
> 
> 'There is always one special snowflake who thinks the rules don't apply to them. STAY AT HOME!!!!!!! there is a f******g pandemic for God's sake!'
> 
> On reflection my words were a little harsh, but we have been shielding since March thanks to COV-+-idiots who refuse to wear masks (not medical exceptions) and hippies and tourists who do not give a damn as long as they have a good time.
> 
> Bah humbug


I don't think you're being too harsh at all. We have people just like that here in the States that think they have some right to put others' health in danger just because they consider wearing a mask to be inconvenient or some other BS excuse for not wanting to do so.


----------



## Phil Istine

Olly Buckle said:


> Have you red 'Pukoon' by Spike Milligan? Basically the same scenario, the village is split by the North South Irish border. Not over impressed by most of Spike's books, but this is one of the funniest books I have ever read.



No, I haven't read it, but I'll seek a Kindle version.


----------



## Olly Buckle

The government has stepped in and said that the Pfizer vaccine will be given in single doses to as many people as possible. It is not what it was licensed or tested for, we really don't know how much protection that will give for how long. Further the company producing it say they are having problems, so it may be impossible to get more for a second dose later. It could well be that they are simply throwing away what benefit there could have been for vulnerable people, and it is not as though they can vaccinate a large proportion of the population by doing it, they only have a relatively small number of doses.

It leaves me wondering what to do if/when it is offered to me, I am vulnerable enough that it should be towards the end of this month if the original plan were followed, but do I want an ineffective jab that might compromise the possibility of a different sort from the Oxford producers? Do I believe the claims of much greater efficiency the Oxford group make after their initial claim of sixty something % effectiveness? I am skeptical, they want to sell it and the government have had their dirty paws in it. Whatever happens I can see myself staying home for a good while yet.


----------



## Moose.H

Conspiracy theories are silently supported by Governments to hide the worse reality  so bad that we wouldn't even get out of bed.


----------



## Hector

-With symptoms and death percentage being those of a common flu.
-With 90%+ of those who are positive having no symptoms at all.
-With 90%+ of those who die being over 70 years old AND having other pathological problems.

With all the above, how come the majority of people does NOT believe that something is suspicious? Do people in power really care about our health so much as to paralyze the entire global economy just so that some elderly people will live 5 more years?


----------



## Olly Buckle

Hector said:


> -With symptoms and death percentage being those of a common flu.
> -With 90%+ of those who are positive having no symptoms at all.
> -With 90%+ of those who die being over 70 years old AND having other pathological problems.
> 
> With all the above, how come the majority of people does NOT believe that something is suspicious? Do people in power really care about our health so much as to paralyze the entire global economy just so that some elderly people will live 5 more years?



Average age nowadays is around ninety, so more like living another twenty years. As a person of 76 years with an underlying condition "Just so" is an insult, not an argument to me. Even if I accept your 90% figures, which are very disputable, the factor you have failed to take into account is the infection rate. Historically flu infections in Jan to Feb (The bad months) run at between 20-50 people per 100,000. When it is peaking this disease is running at an infection rate of ten times that, ergo it will kill ten times as many people even if it is no worse than flu (Which I am convinced by much expert testimony it is).

And what the hell else is going to unite countries around the world to paralyze their economies when the rest of the time they can't even agree on how many fish to catch?


----------



## Olly Buckle

https://www.independentsage.org/

Do have a look at this lot, some very knowledgeable people here, top experts in their fields. My personal heroine is Christina Pagel, a remarkable achiever, but none of them are to be written off, they will bury a tamer of horses.


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## PiP

We are shielding as much as is practical and I can only say:Thank God we are in Portugal because the UK government really have no idea how to handle the pandemic. They appear more worried re political fall out rather than make unpopular decisions and listen to the experts. 

I am 66 which is in reality the new 46  I still like to party and have fun, but of course I can't so I don't.  We have learned to adapt to the new normal. It's not hard it just means wearing a mask in public places and respecting other people. And hector, you have a lot to learn about life.


----------



## bdcharles

Hector said:


> -With symptoms and death percentage being those of a common flu.
> -With 90%+ of those who are positive having no symptoms at all.
> -With 90%+ of those who die being over 70 years old AND having other pathological problems.
> 
> With all the above, how come the majority of people does NOT believe that something is suspicious? Do people in power really care about our health so much as to paralyze the entire global economy just so that some elderly people will live 5 more years?



It's not that we don't question what is going on, it's that on one side we have politicians, scientists, and the medical establishment - all ripe for distrust, right? - and on the other we have fringe types well-versed in stats abuse, often associated with repeatedly-proven falsehoods, and divisive if compelling rhetoric - also ripe for distrust. So on balance, given those two options, who would _you _believe? Where would _you_ prefer to get _your _information from when forming your own opinions?

The thing that makes me shake my head when seeing comparisons to flu and whatnot is that, yes, the spread rates and fatality rates are similar. They are. Ditto measles and some smallpox variants and all that stuff. Well, we have vaccines for those, and we have special distancing for Covid, so it stands to reason that the rates are comparable, because measures have been taken. The vaccine is just another measure, swapping out one for the other. Sure, there's risk. Sure, there's wisdom in not rushing it out. Doubtless some Shrekli-type asshole is making a ton of cash out of it somewhere. But if the options for keeping the rate where it is are social distancing versus vaccination, I know which I'd prefer, to get life back somewhat to how it was. And at the end of the day, if people don't want the vaccine, they are free to not get it. That's leaving aside the bizarre claims about Bill Gates controlling us with 5G nanobots or whatever. I've worked in telecoms for close to twenty years and have yet to see any nanobot evidence nor sign an NDA about it. I'm actually kind of miffed; I genuinely want there to be nanobots.

As for the flu rates, I spoke to my dad yesterday, who is a hardcore covid denier, and he made the claim again that there were fewer (his words were "zero") flu deaths. To which I could have replied but didn't: that's because people are not spreading it about so much. They're more isolated than they were, so chances are good that all transmissible disease deaths are down. Probably other deaths too. More stats abuse, but you know, we humour our elders in my family.

https://fullfact.org/health/flu-pneumonia-death-years/
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/covid19-is-surging-but-flu-cases-are-down

I didn't bother to correct him. It's not worth it. He'll outlast us all anyway, the damn dark prince


----------



## Hector

Olly Buckle said:


> Average age nowadays is around ninety, so more like living another twenty years. As a person of 76 years with an underlying condition "Just so" is an insult, not an argument to me. Even if I accept your 90% figures, which are very disputable, the factor you have failed to take into account is the infection rate. Historically flu infections in Jan to Feb (The bad months) run at between 20-50 people per 100,000. When it is peaking this disease is running at an infection rate of ten times that, ergo it will kill ten times as many people even if it is no worse than flu (Which I am convinced by much expert testimony it is).
> 
> And what the hell else is going to unite countries around the world to paralyze their economies when the rest of the time they can't even agree on how many fish to catch?




I had no idea you were 76. Your face in the avatar doesn't show it. If I look that young in my 70s, I'll be glad!

Anyway, let me put it this way. Covid (assuming it exists, which I also doubt) is no more dangerous than, say, pneumonia. Pneumonia has been a thing for as long as human beings have been a thing. By that logic, we should have stopped our lives in the prehistoric times and still be quarantined in our caves.


----------



## Olly Buckle

The avatar has been there since I joined (2007), I really should get round to updating it. Take a look at my YouTube channel, that is all recorded since August. Not too worried about pneumonia, I have had my jab which lasts ten years I believe.

You doubt it exists? Look at it this way, about 80,000 more people than normal have died during the period it is supposed to have been about. I may not always believe politicians, they are downplaying it and saying only 60,000 covid deaths by adopting a narrow definition, but I believe the British Office of National statistics. Firstly they are not the sort of people to lie, secondly they simply could not get away with a lie of that proportion. 
Multiple hospital managers and people in charge of intensive care units across Britain are saying they are running out of space and unable to cope. I have worked in hospitals, hospital doctors would tell politicians to stick it where the sun won't shine if they asked them to lie. Pretty soon you will know two or three people who have died of this 'non-existent' disease. 

Stay away from crowded places, keep a distance of a couple of yards from people, wash your hands regular and keep them away from your face. You don't want to catch it, not all the people it kills are my age, and those it doesn't kill it can make very ill. My mate Ray is in his mid thirties and has a little girl, he spent thirty days on a ventilator and two months recovering when he got home, he can make it to the end of the garden without sticks now. 

Check out that link to independent sage, who they are and what their qualifications for speaking are, these are really informed and educated scientists who hold important positions at top hospitals and universities, not politicians or  internet freaks, read some of their reports. It is about Britain, not America, but disease does not respect nationality, the basic message is the same.


----------



## Hector

Olly Buckle said:


> The avatar has been there since I joined (2007), I really should get round to updating it. Take a look at my YouTube channel, that is all recorded since August. Not too worried about pneumonia, I have had my jab which lasts ten years I believe.
> 
> You doubt it exists? Look at it this way, about 80,000 more people than normal have died during the period it is supposed to have been about. I may not always believe politicians, they are downplaying it and saying only 60,000 covid deaths by adopting a narrow definition, but I believe the British Office of National statistics. Firstly they are not the sort of people to lie, secondly they simply could not get away with a lie of that proportion.
> Multiple hospital managers and people in charge of intensive care units across Britain are saying they are running out of space and unable to cope. I have worked in hospitals, hospital doctors would tell politicians to stick it where the sun won't shine if they asked them to lie. Pretty soon you will know two or three people who have died of this 'non-existent' disease.
> 
> Stay away from crowded places, keep a distance of a couple of yards from people, wash your hands regular and keep them away from your face. You don't want to catch it, not all the people it kills are my age, and those it doesn't kill it can make very ill. My mate Ray is in his mid thirties and has a little girl, he spent thirty days on a ventilator and two months recovering when he got home, he can make it to the end of the garden without sticks now.
> 
> Check out that link to independent sage, who they are and what their qualifications for speaking are, these are really informed and educated scientists who hold important positions at top hospitals and universities, not politicians or  internet freaks, read some of their reports. It is about Britain, not America, but disease does not respect nationality, the basic message is the same.



Ηere is what they have not told you...
-People who suffer from other serious conditions are forced to accept being registered as COVID patients so that they can be admitted in the hospital without delay.
-Rapid tests have 50% a chance of showing one suffers from COVID. Taking a rapid test is as if you tossed a coin!
-They cause medical induced coma to people who do not really need it. Those people actually die of the pressure the ventilators cause in their lungs, although they're officially declared COVID victims.


----------



## Gofa

Hector i struggle with the simplicity of what you say we have not been told

the thing i feel that separates us Hector is I have had Covid 19 and you are still short of personal experience

hence the “they” in your points  tell us of your experience buddy 

I'm 12 months on and still debilitated for too many Covid’s real teeth come later and last long

i think there is a space for you Hector in the flat earth society

again my cautionary tale do as much as possible to avoid this 
its not a flu
its a pathogen that damages your body


----------



## Olly Buckle

My daughter's friend, who is well placed in the NHS, tells her she reckons they will be overwhelmed by about the 10th Jan and deaths will hit around 3,000 a day toward the end of the month. Meanwhile Boris says it "May be necessary to take stronger measures in a few weeks time", and Matt Hancock blames 'The public' for the rise in cases, anyone but those in charge as usual.

Please be careful out there and avoid all the contacts you can. Even the wishy washy, go along with everything, Labour party has finally said they think it time for a lock down. It looks as though things are going to get very nasty indeed, and we are going to have to look after ourselves


----------



## SueC

Olly Buckle said:


> My daughter's friend, who is well placed in the NHS, tells her she reckons they will be overwhelmed by about the 10th Jan and deaths will hit around 3,000 a day toward the end of the month. Meanwhile Boris says it "May be necessary to take stronger measures in a few weeks time", and Matt Hancock blames 'The public' for the rise in cases, anyone but those in charge as usual.
> 
> Please be careful out there and avoid all the contacts you can. Even the wishy washy, go along with everything, Labour party has finally said they think it time for a lock down. It looks as though things are going to get very nasty indeed, and we are going to have to look after ourselves



Olly, I was just thinking today how frustrating it must be for health care providers to have to accept what has now become an almost impossible situation, and realize that so much of it could have been prevented if people had just taken the measures they were asked to take. I can't count how many stories I have heard where those who chose to not wear masks, not socially distance, not stay at home are, as they lay dying, verbally wishing they hadn't been so careless to that exhausted nurse holding their hand. And what can the nurses and doctors say - "Oh gee, that's all right. You're here now and even though I can't go home and see my own children because you are too sick, I'm okay with that." The governments are in unchartered territory too, just like all of us. I do feel that most governments operate first on the idea that every person in their charge are rationale, thinking, considerate human beings who shouldn't have to be told to wear masks always or stay away from others. They are, of course, wrong.

Are you having as much push back on those protective measures in England as we are here? Remarkably, I heard just this morning that there are still people in this country who believe this whole virus thing is a hoax. My son texted me the other day and said 17,000 people had died in the state of Florida in 24 hours - how is it possible for anyone to think this is a hoax?

Addendum: I see Boris has shut you down until mid-February.


----------



## River Rose

SueC said:


> Olly, I was just thinking today how frustrating it must be for health care providers to have to accept what has now become an almost impossible situation, and realize that so much of it could have been prevented if people had just taken the measures they were asked to take. I can't count how many stories I have heard where those who chose to not wear masks, not socially distance, not stay at home are, as they lay dying, verbally wishing they hadn't been so careless to that exhausted nurse holding their hand. And what can the nurses and doctors say - "Oh gee, that's all right. You're here now and even though I can't go home and see my own children because you are too sick, I'm okay with that." The governments are in unchartered territory too, just like all of us. I do feel that most governments operate first on the idea that every person in their charge are rationale, thinking, considerate human beings who shouldn't have to be told to wear masks always or stay away from others. They are, of course, wrong.
> 
> My mom is a nurse and says he nursing career has become a nightmare. She never thought she would see conditions such as these. She herself is COVID tested twice a week. They have to take their patients temps all day long to see if there is any fluctuation.
> She had an elderly patient a month or so ago,,who’s family was not allowed to visit at all bc she was high risk as she was elderly. Her family decided to gather around her window to lift her spirits so they could all see one another. Her patient got so exited she fell and broke her hip. She died from surgery complications alone,, except the dedicated nursing staff as no family members was allowed to visit,,,once again,,,her now being at high risk from surgery. My mom almost walked off the job. She does not know how much more of this she can take. She is retirement age,,,yet she loves her patients.


----------



## Xander416

SueC said:


> how is it possible for anyone to think this is a hoax?


Is this a serious question? :-k


----------



## Phil Istine

Xander416 said:


> Is this a serious question? :-k



I think it was more of the rhetorical type.
I'll phone my friend in a minute and ask him - the one who was hospitalised for weeks, put on a ventilator, and nearly died.


----------



## bdcharles

Xander416 said:


> Is this a serious question? :-k




It's a legitimate one, absolutely - as all questions should be. But I would answer it by saying it's possible - if not perhaps accurate - for people to think its a hoax simply because of the misinformation, distrust, and political rhetoric that characterises these times.


----------



## PiP

[video=youtube_share;2zx3DFXqxa8]https://youtu.be/2zx3DFXqxa8[/video]


----------



## Olly Buckle

Funny at first, Carole, then you realise he is bang on the money, still at least Boris is only incompetent, you poor Americans.


----------



## jenthepen

SueC said:


> I was just thinking today how frustrating it must be for health care providers to have to accept what has now become an almost impossible situation, and realize that so much of it could have been prevented if people had just taken the measures they were asked to take. I can't count how many stories I have heard where those who chose to not wear masks, not socially distance, not stay at home are, as they lay dying, verbally wishing they hadn't been so careless to that exhausted nurse holding their hand. And what can the nurses and doctors say - "Oh gee, that's all right. You're here now and even though I can't go home and see my own children because you are too sick, I'm okay with that." The governments are in unchartered territory too, just like all of us. I do feel that most governments operate first on the idea that every person in their charge are rationale, thinking, considerate human beings who shouldn't have to be told to wear masks always or stay away from others. They are, of course, wrong.



Thanks for such a clear and compassionate assessment of the situation, Sue. Yes, we are getting just as much pushback against the regulations here in the UK, with many people putting their own interests first and blaming the government for not taking decisions that they could easily make for themselves. We've seen the worst and the best of human nature during the past 12 months, for sure.


----------



## River Rose

Xander416 said:


> Is this a serious question? :-k



It’s no longer weather this is a hoax or not. This is no longer if the virus was government generated or not. This is no longer “it’s just another virus”. Just another form of the flu. This virus is here and is mutating. Into different strands. My ex husband had to go to ER the other night. No one is allowed in. No family. No visitors. This is real. What more proof do you want.


----------



## BrandonTheWriter

River Rose said:


> It’s no longer weather this is a hoax or not. This is no longer if the virus was government generated or not. This is no longer “it’s just another virus”. Just another form of the flu. This virus is here and is mutating. Into different strands. My ex husband had to go to ER the other night. No one is allowed in. No family. No visitors. This is real. What more proof do you want.



I am honestly terrified at the moment.

It is getting especially bad in the UK where I live. Just the other day, the deaths had hit over 1,000 in a daily toll. I have been trying to stop looking at the numbers because it is honestly alarming and worrying. I know people that have had the virus, and it has really taken a toll on them.

People need to start taking this serious. I have been in fear of since we went in the first Lockdown over here, which was in March of last year. We are now in a another Lockdown until March, it is a repeat and even worse than before. I honestly don't know what to expect in the future, I'm just following the rules and hoping these vaccines work as well as we hope.

Writing, reading and the internet have been the things that have been helping me through these tough times.

I hope your ex-husband comes out of this okay. Just know we are here if you need to chat.


----------



## PiP

BrandonTheWriter said:


> I am honestly terrified at the moment.



So am I. We were just adapting to the new normal and learning to cope mentally and wham!!!! the virus is now out of control. After today's figures we are going into full lockdown and shielding. Hubby is high risk. It's okay, we will manage somehow.  I have WF, lots of hobbies and I am a keen gardener. And of course, BREXIT is another challenge because I can no longer order craft supplies from the UK because of the shambles re Customs and paperwork.  Got laugh or I'd cry. I feel sorry for the small UK companies who have customers in Europe. Just today my stained glass supplier in Bristol said they were not delivering to Portugal until further notice.

Life, eh?

Hope you get the vaccine soon.


----------



## BrandonTheWriter

PiP said:


> So am I. We were just adapting to the new normal and learning to cope mentally and wham!!!! the virus is now out of control. After today's figures we are going into full lockdown and shielding. Hubby is high risk. It's okay, we will manage somehow.  I have WF, lots of hobbies and I am a keen gardener. And of course, BREXIT is another challenge because I can no longer order craft supplies from the UK because of the shambles re Customs and paperwork.  Got laugh or I'd cry. I feel sorry for the small UK companies who have customers in Europe. Just today my stained glass supplier in Bristol said they were not delivering to Portugal until further notice.
> 
> Life, eh?
> 
> Hope you get the vaccine soon.



I have never been more glad to be an introvert, book reader and writer. Most of the friends I have are bored out of their minds because they don't know how to entertain themselves. I can get lost in other worlds rather than my own for a little while, I'll be eternally grateful for that.

I hope you stay safe. We'll get through this soon!


----------



## Gofa

We lived the lock down nine months ago
things to notice
masks and hand sanitiser when you go get groceries  the santiser works for 30 minutes 
when you come home in garage or what ever use a wet wipe cleaner to rub down your groceries before bringing into house
the virus can be on the packaging 
the wet wipes kill it quickly in contact 
in a lift use a wet wipe to push buttons
open doors with wipes 
wipe down your phone wallet whenever you have put it down out side your house  
think through when you shop for groceries
early in morning is best   Shorter queues

we did this for a month 

it worked 

careful in lifts dint touch the walls

sorry welcome to paranoia  

cause its real

by the way 

ive had covid

my lung function 12 months on is damaged 

you are scared of dying

the long term damage  is of more concern 

you dont sugar coat this problem


----------



## Olly Buckle

Gofa said:


> We lived the lock down nine months ago
> things to notice
> masks and hand sanitiser when you go get groceries  the santiser works for 30 minutes
> when you come home in garage or what ever use a wet wipe cleaner to rub down your groceries before bringing into house
> the virus can be on the packaging
> the wet wipes kill it quickly in contact
> in a lift use a wet wipe to push buttons
> open doors with wipes
> wipe down your phone wallet whenever you have put it down out side your house
> think through when you shop for groceries
> early in morning is best   Shorter queues
> 
> we did this for a month
> 
> it worked
> 
> careful in lifts dint touch the walls
> 
> sorry welcome to paranoia
> 
> cause its real
> 
> by the way
> 
> ive had covid
> 
> my lung function 12 months on is damaged
> 
> you are scared of dying
> 
> the long term damage  is of more concern
> 
> you dont sugar coat this problem



This is so true, I notice NZ and Australia are not rushing to vaccinate, they have control and can afford to watch us for a bit. We are going to end up the dirty men of the world again, already I hear people saying it will be treatable and not so severe with vaccination and medication, but will remain endemic. Not using the opportunity to eliminate it strikes me as very short sighted. Firstly the initial cost is high, but the long term cost of living with it must eventually be higher. Secondly having a reservoir of disease would be inviting a resurgence or a mutation more resistant to treatment. If the latter any treatment would be selecting for it


----------



## Gofa

Yes this is a long game and politician's rarely see past the next news cycle

our prime minister risked her career and standing to do the right thing

and was re-elected in a  land slide

Best man for the job is often a Woman


----------



## Olly Buckle

Poor Christina said reading the hospital statistics she was in tears when she spoke on the Independent sage briefing this morning, it looked like she might be again almost. Right too, each one of them represents a person, not just a number and independent sage had predicted just this and told them how to prevent it. They are trying hard to spread sensible ideas, and no one in power is listening, they are too interested in money and popularity.


----------



## Xander416

River Rose said:


> It’s no longer weather this is a hoax or not. This is no longer if the virus was government generated or not. This is no longer “it’s just another virus”. Just another form of the flu. This virus is here and is mutating. Into different strands. My ex husband had to go to ER the other night. No one is allowed in. No family. No visitors. This is real. What more proof do you want.


You misunderstood, I'm nothing short of _horrified_ at people denying the reality of COVID-19. I don't know about elsewhere, but here in the States COVID denial generally comes hand in hand with Trumpism. I live in a majority Republican area with a lot of Trump supporters and outside of a few exceptions they dismiss the virus entirely while at the same time casually wearing body armor (and I'm talking hard body armor like soldiers and SWAT cops wear, not stuff you can wear a suit over) and open carrying pistols because they're convinced some hypothetical mass criminal element (usually ranging from MS-13 gang members to Muslim terrorists that snuck across the US-Mexico border and the ever popular "Communist/Marxist Democrat" boogeymen) is going to come riding into town at any moment to systematically gun everyone down.

I sincerely hope your ex-husband is able to beat COVID.


----------



## Phil Istine

PiP said:


> So am I. We were just adapting to the new normal and learning to cope mentally and wham!!!! the virus is now out of control. After today's figures we are going into full lockdown and shielding. Hubby is high risk. It's okay, we will manage somehow.  I have WF, lots of hobbies and I am a keen gardener. And of course, BREXIT is another challenge because I can no longer order craft supplies from the UK because of the shambles re Customs and paperwork.  Got laugh or I'd cry. I feel sorry for the small UK companies who have customers in Europe. Just today my stained glass supplier in Bristol said they were not delivering to Portugal until further notice.
> 
> Life, eh?
> 
> Hope you get the vaccine soon.



In the town where I live, cases have doubled in a single week.  This can no longer be attributed to a higher level of testing.  There are a bit over 100,000 residents in this town, and the infection rate is well over 1,000 per 100,000 - more than 1 in 100.  Statistically, that means there are possibly 2 or 3 people in the road I live in who are infected.  For all I know I might be one of them, albeit symptomless so far.
A few weeks ago it was about 40 per 1,000, so more that a twenty-fold increase in about two months.  This is what is meant by exponential growth.  Thankfully, so far, the number of deaths has hardly moved, but there tends to be a four or five week lag.  Also, more severely-ill patients' lives are being saved thanks to dexamethasone and a couple of other drugs.
I only go out to work (lone outdoor worker) and to shop for food.  The nearby supermarket is open 24/6 (not Sundays), so I go there duringf the night when it's quieter.
I also take my permitted exercise during the night as well in order to avoid people.  The police asked about that a couple of nights back but were fine once I explained my brand of logic.


----------



## Gofa

Research vitamin D
98% of tested covid deaths were vitamin D deficient

there is a linkage


----------



## PiP

Phil Istine said:


> .
> I only go out to work (lone outdoor worker) and to shop for food.  The nearby supermarket is open 24/6 (not Sundays), so I go there duringf the night when it's quieter.
> I also take my permitted exercise during the night as well in order to avoid people.  The police asked about that a couple of nights back but were fine once I explained my brand of logic.



I wish we had a 24hr supermarket. I ACTUALLY miss shopping! We now order online and it takes me hours as I have to order in Portuguese. Goodle translate is not much use .

I think we have all developed our own 'brand' of logic just to stay sane and survive. I've now decided to stop listening to the news and reading FB because it is too depressing.


----------



## escorial

all them knockbacks in the pubs and clubs in the 80's saved me from aids....


----------



## Matchu

Probably they were saved, and you were happy with your knot in a barbed wire fence.


----------



## Olly Buckle

PiP said:


> I wish we had a 24hr supermarket. I ACTUALLY miss shopping! We now order online and it takes me hours as I have to order in Portuguese. Goodle translate is not much use .
> 
> I think we have all developed our own 'brand' of logic just to stay sane and survive. I've now decided to stop listening to the news and reading FB because it is too depressing.



On the up side, I bet your Portuguese is improving 

Seriously, it is very depressing, over a thousand people dying every day, infection rates on the rise, and a half hearted response from a government who talks of vaccination as though it is some sort of magic bullet they are personally responsible for. They introduce mass testing, which is pretty useless without tracing, require isolation, which is not observed without enforcement, and allow free access through borders, whilst blaming everyone else they can think of for spreading it and refusing to do simple stuff like closing nursery schools. No wonder it reduces the real experts to tears.


----------



## SueC

PiP said:


> I wish we had a 24hr supermarket. I ACTUALLY miss shopping! We now order online and it takes me hours as I have to order in Portuguese. Goodle translate is not much use .
> 
> I think we have all developed our own 'brand' of logic just to stay sane and survive. I've now decided to stop listening to the news and reading FB because it is too depressing.



I wish I could stop watching the news. I have so little to do and the black TV screen just calls my name! I'm becoming a little obsessed with everything that is going on, worried that those who trashed our Capital building are not going to be found, that on the 17th of this month, they will be back and do more harm (as promised on FB or somewhere and mentioned on the news). I can't understand any of this, how so many people can believe when one man says something like this Corona virus is a hoax. Everything is moving in slow motion - including getting inoculations out to the people. I don't say anything to anyone, for fear of being told that I am out of touch! I'm afraid to talk, afraid of getting yelled at. I feel very isolated; haven't really seen my family in ages. We got a note on our door from mgmt. that said we "may have been exposed to the virus," but no other information. Was it from a visitor, someone in the elevator, one of the residents? And were they sick, or were they just exposed? Should we quarantine? Ugh! This is all making me crazy. I don't think 2021 will be better after all. We have too much to make up.


----------



## Hector

escorial said:


> all them knockbacks in the pubs and clubs in the 80's saved me from aids....



Is it a good time to mention I don't believe AIDS exists either?


----------



## BrandonTheWriter

SueC said:


> I wish I could stop watching the news. I have so little to do and the black TV screen just calls my name! I'm becoming a little obsessed with everything that is going on, worried that those who trashed our Capital building are not going to be found, that on the 17th of this month, they will be back and do more harm (as promised on FB or somewhere and mentioned on the news). I can't understand any of this, how so many people can believe when one man says something like this Corona virus is a hoax. Everything is moving in slow motion - including getting inoculations out to the people. I don't say anything to anyone, for fear of being told that I am out of touch! I'm afraid to talk, afraid of getting yelled at. I feel very isolated; haven't really seen my family in ages. We got a note on our door from mgmt. that said we "may have been exposed to the virus," but no other information. Was it from a visitor, someone in the elevator, one of the residents? And were they sick, or were they just exposed? Should we quarantine? Ugh! This is all making me crazy. I don't think 2021 will be better after all. We have too much to make up.



I think people would be better off if they stopped giving the news all their attention. I have had the same problem myself. It is hard. The News doesn't make you feel particularly good, but since the pandemic it has felt necessary to keep in the loop. You can't really put your fingers in your ears because it just is everywhere.

I think when things all calm down with Covid I will be not watching/reading the News for a while. It will be a much needed break from it all.


----------



## Olly Buckle

New strains appearing in Brazil and possibly Japan, containment won't work, one that is resistant to the vaccines will turn up sooner or later if it is not there already, it's in the nature of viruses.

With hospitals pretty well full and over 1500 people being recorded as dying today, highest so far, could it get worse? The government is telling us it is just beginning to get better, but numbers of new infections have dropped very little, and there is a time gap before deaths will start to drop.

I have to go for a blood test tomorrow, it has already been put off once, I shall be taking all the care I can and straight in the shower when I get back.

Let's be glad it is only one disease turned up, there have been times when people had to cope with cholera, smallpox and plague all at once, at least we can cope with the bacterial ones at the moment.


----------



## Gofa

Im always interested in research   This whole new strain will get us all 

However, for many vaccines, the evolution of resistance has never occurred [6]. For example, the measles vaccine has been widely used for decades without the virus ever evolving the ability to transmit through vaccinated hosts. Similarly, smallpox was completely eradicated, in large part due to vaccination that viral evolution failed to overcome. In contrast, _Streptococcus pneumoniae_quickly evolved resistance to the pneumococcal conjugate vaccine (PCV7), necessitating the development and deployment of a new vaccine, PCV13 [7]. Recently, the features that are critical to delaying the evolution of vaccine resistance have been described [6]. Here, we argue that by repurposing standard samples from COVID-19 clinical trials, the potential for vaccine resistance can be assessed even before vaccine licensure.


----------



## Easy-Eight

While this is True, RWK. (I am just stepping in between this conversation with my two sense) It doesn't excuse the moral ambiguity of spreading fear and misinformation to the public. Who is in some cases will just believe anything that is printed on paper, or tweeted. Sometimes, people will just blindly follow the words of what someone says without even taking a second to think about what is being said.


----------



## Xander416

Smallpox hasn't been eradicated. Cases are extremely rare, but it's still out there. No virus can be completely eradicated. Hell, the common cold survived the K-T extinction. Once we get an effective vaccine for "base" COVID, combating new strains becomes easier.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Xander416 said:


> Smallpox hasn't been eradicated. Cases are extremely rare, but it's still out there. No virus can be completely eradicated. Hell, the common cold survived the K-T extinction. Once we get an effective vaccine for "base" COVID, combating new strains becomes easier.



The last cases were in Somalia in 1978, there was a carrier with a group of geurilla fighters, quite difficult to track down. No reported cases since. True it is not exactly eradicated, there are a couple of laboratories holding samples still, I think some unspeakables want the option of using it for germ warfare.

P.S. The K-T event was over 60 million years ago, Erectus was two mllion, don't know where you got that info from, but it must have lived in some other mammal than man, seems unlikely.


----------



## Olly Buckle

I am told an Israeli Orthodox Rabbi is telling his followers that vaccination will make them homosexual. Watch out for rampant homosexuality among the over eighties.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Just a thought, but, although I welcome the prospect of receiving a vaccination, are the right group being vaccinated for the stated aim. They talk about relieving pressure on the NHS and freeing up intensive care, but people over seventy five are not normally offered intensive care treatment, it is too intrusive and too demanding, the outcome would not be likely to be good. By giving it to these people, however, it is likely the death rate will be lowered quickly in the short term. Politically desirable. If you wanted to relieve pressure the groups to aim for would be the people most likely to transmit, anyone who goes to work and can't work from home, young people likely to ignore restrictions, not the elderly who understand the importance of isolating.

An understanding of how debilitating this illness is, a large scale study showed that at 140 days after discharge from hospital 29.4% of patients had been readmitted, and of them 12.3% died. These would probably have been people with underlying conditions, but some of those conditions may not be severe in themselves, things like a raised blood pressure for example.


----------



## SueC

Olly
 this is genius. I never thought of that,  but you are so right.


----------



## Xander416

Olly Buckle said:


> The last cases were in Somalia in 1978, there  was a carrier with a group of geurilla fighters, quite difficult to  track down. No reported cases since. True it is not exactly eradicated,  there are a couple of laboratories holding samples still, I think some  unspeakables want the option of using it for germ warfare.


Yeah, it's rare, but still out there.



> P.S. The K-T event was over 60 million years ago, Erectus was  two mllion, don't know where you got that info from, but it must have  lived in some other mammal than man, seems unlikely.


I meant to say flu. #-oAs  to where I got it, an article I read online a few years back talked  about fossilized influenza that had been dated to some 70 million years  ago. 



Olly Buckle said:


> Watch out for rampant homosexuality among the over eighties.


That's not an image I wanted in my head. Thanks a lot, Olly. lol


----------



## jenthepen

Olly Buckle said:


> Just a thought, but, although I welcome the prospect of receiving a vaccination, are the right group being vaccinated for the stated aim. They talk about relieving pressure on the NHS and freeing up intensive care, but people over seventy five are not normally offered intensive care treatment, it is too intrusive and too demanding, the outcome would not be likely to be good. By giving it to these people, however, it is likely the death rate will be lowered quickly in the short term. Politically desirable. If you wanted to relieve pressure the groups to aim for would be the people most likely to transmit, anyone who goes to work and can't work from home, young people likely to ignore restrictions, not the elderly who understand the importance of isolating.



The only probem I can see with this idea is that having the vaccine hasn't been proved to stop those people spreading the disease, even though they can't catch it themselves. Also, expecting all over 70's to self-isolate endlessly when many of them live in care homes with young carers, or need help at home, or hospital treatment for underlying conditions seems unrealistic. Also, these vaccines haven't been approved for children so, if we don't vaccinate the elderly (who are the ones most likely to be hospitalised and die) it would be impossible to protect the elderly and most vulnerable and the hospitals would still be stuffed full of covid victims and unable to treat all the other diseases, like cancer.


----------



## Olly Buckle

jenthepen said:


> The only probem I can see with this idea is that having the vaccine hasn't been proved to stop those people spreading the disease, even though they can't catch it themselves. Also, expecting all over 70's to self-isolate endlessly when many of them live in care homes with young carers, or need help at home, or hospital treatment for underlying conditions seems unrealistic. Also, these vaccines haven't been approved for children so, if we don't vaccinate the elderly (who are the ones most likely to be hospitalised and die) it would be impossible to protect the elderly and most vulnerable and the hospitals would still be stuffed full of covid victims and unable to treat all the other diseases, like cancer.



The plan is to vaccinate everyone, I am only talking about changing the order this is done so those who can not self isolate effectively come first, not leaving the elderly indefinitely. There might still be elderly people in hospital, but as I pointed out they are not the ones filling intensive care, so could be cared for separately and things like highly invasive operations that required intensive aftercare could go ahead. The transmission/carrier thing is not fully understood, but it is not unreasonable to assume it would at least lower the incidence of transmission. There were a group of boys in Italy who were kept in isolation until they tested negative, one consistently tested positive because he was harbouring the disease in sinuses and cavities at the back of his throat , although he was not otherwise infected, cases like this seem to be at the root of the fear of carriers, but they are occasional, not normal.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Monday, invited to attend a vaccination at Guy's hospital on friday, today. Slightly trepidatious about making an hour and a half train journey with a return during rush hour, but still.

Tuesday phone call from my GP surgery offering me a vaccine at the centre in the next village on wednesday, had that.

Thursday received a letter from the NHS inviting me to apply for a vaccination.

Bet they are keeping track on some outdated microsoft spreadsheet. Somehow it reminds me of "The most efficient track and trace system in the world" and "The most efficient border crossing in the world"


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## Olly Buckle

One case in Western Australia, e locked down two million people, that's how you do it, soon they will be back to a normal life again with festivals, gigs and theaters back to normal again. small price to pay for freedom and 'No worries'.


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## Olly Buckle

Deaths drop below 1,000 a day and the government are talking about "Opening up" in Britain.

3 cases reported in New Zealand and they have imposed a new lockdown

Why do I live in a country run by madmen?


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## Matchu

Get a grip.  Wellington, Auckland, sheep on the hills,  your country is wonderful.

Anyways, you had your chance.  Ten quid it would have cost you.  I'd have gone for ten quid.  But I have seen what happens to those people, where the tedium overwhelms, where the wind blows at the whaling station.  It really is the stuff of nightmares, stuck on the bottom of the world.  Stay in Sussex


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## Olly Buckle

Matchu said:


> Get a grip.  Wellington, Auckland, sheep on the hills,  your country is wonderful.
> 
> Anyways, you had your chance.  Ten quid it would have cost you.  I'd have gone for ten quid.  But I have seen what happens to those people, where the tedium overwhelms, where the wind blows at the whaling station.  It really is the stuff of nightmares, stuck on the bottom of the world.  Stay in Sussex



The ten quid emigration was a bit before even my time, I remember my parents discussing it. Any way I don't actually want to go there, I just want my government to follow a sensible three step plan.

1 Identify countries that are controlling the infection effectively.

2 Look at how they did it.

3 Imitate it.

I'm not asking for them to stretch their brains to anything as complicated as original thought, that is obviously beyond them.


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## Matchu

I know.  I understand.

The only 'bit of fun' was the IEA report which stated we shouldn't laud the NHS, and the nations without even any public health provision were doing as well, if not better...combating...

...

The 'wind' seems to say we 'vaccine up' and in 18 months time this shall become a condition _like_ flu where you could be poorly, but unlikely to die.  Hospitals will no longer be _swamped._..the balance will tilt [?]

New Zealand stuff is a red herring, populist rubbish, heh heh   [*tease*]


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## Olly Buckle

Trouble is it isn't like flu. Flu you have it and get over it, covid you can have it, mainly get over it, but go on suffering severe symptoms for months. Well, that's what we know so far, nobody had it much long enough ago to know, the symptoms might last years. So they go for 'herd immunity' and get rid of all the old people they have to pay pensions to and the people who need care and support and think they are going to save a fortune , only to find they are left with a sizable chunk of the workforce disabled by the very disease they thought was ridding them of that sort of burden. 
Of course they may only be stupid and not the sort of cold hearted bastards that makes them out, but my belief is that they are both, cold hearted bastards and stupid.


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## Matchu

Tho' vaccine makes long covid less likely?

I think it's cartoon to think there is a 'they' rubbing hands together...we cherish our older people, we cherish our young who are suffering. 

 ...


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## Phil Istine

Olly Buckle said:


> Deaths drop below 1,000 a day and the government are talking about "Opening up" in Britain.
> 
> 3 cases reported in New Zealand and they have imposed a new lockdown
> 
> Why do I live in a country run by madmen?




Madmen, and a coven-ready Home Secretary.


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## Xander416

Olly Buckle said:


> Why do I live in a country run by madmen?


Could be worse. One of those madmen could rally his supporters to overthrow the government after you finally get rid of him and end up getting away with it scot-free, as recently happened in my country.


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## Olly Buckle

Xander416 said:


> Could be worse. One of those madmen could rally his supporters to overthrow the government after you finally get rid of him and end up getting away with it scot-free, as recently happened in my country.


Only so far, I understand states are considering criminal charges, plus his niece is suing him for ripping her off and I think there are a few other people preparing to take him to court. Even if he wins all the cases he could end up a bankrupt with rich lawyers.

Meanwhile I am hearing about another new strain coming out of Africa which is resistant to vaccines, more infectious and has a higher death rate. Influential people are still talking about how long it will be before we can treat it like flu, and what is an acceptable level of deaths. When will they wake up to the concept of wiping it out?

On a more cheerful note, the levels of infection in India have dropped drastically. Trouble is no-one understands why?


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## Olly Buckle

Xander416 said:


> Could be worse. One of those madmen could rally his supporters to overthrow the government after you finally get rid of him and end up getting away with it scot-free, as recently happened in my country.


Only so far, I understand states are considering criminal charges, plus his niece is suing him for ripping her off and I think there are a few other people preparing to take him to court. Even if he wins all the cases he could end up a bankrupt with rich lawyers.

Meanwhile I am hearing about another new strain coming out of Africa which is resistant to vaccines, more infectious and has a higher death rate. Influential people are still talking about how long it will be before we can treat it like flu, and what is an acceptable level of deaths. When will they wake up to the concept of wiping it out?

On a more cheerful note, the levels of infection in India have dropped drastically. Trouble is no-one understands why?

An aside, I keep seeing Chritina Pagle being interviewed and addressed as 'Dr.', seems like the interviewers simply can't get their heads round the idea that this good looking young woman is actually Professor Pagle


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## Xander416

Olly Buckle said:


> Meanwhile I am hearing about another new strain coming out of Africa which is resistant to vaccines, more infectious and has a higher death rate. Influential people are still talking about how long it will be before we can treat it like flu, and what is an acceptable level of deaths. *When will they wake up to the concept of wiping it out?*


Because it's impossible.



> On a more cheerful note, the levels of infection in India have dropped drastically. Trouble is no-one understands why?


Maybe there's something to the no-beef diet, after all?



> An aside, I keep seeing Chritina Pagle being interviewed and addressed as 'Dr.', seems like the interviewers simply can't get their heads round the idea that this good looking young woman is actually Professor Pagle


I don't know about in the UK, but here in America, it's no violation of any secret code to refer to a professor as "doctor." Maybe it's not _proper_, but I've never known of anyone being lambasted for it.


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## Olly Buckle

Xander416 said:


> Because it's impossible.



I have to disagree, admittedly it is easier in a place like New Zealand which is fairly distant and has a small population, but there are other south east Asian countries that have shown it is possible with a strong , concerted effort, and in the long run that would be far less disruptive and could be done at a fraction of the cost of coping with continuous mutation and long term bad effects on people for years into the future, no end in sight.


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