# How hard is it writing from a girl's perspective if you're a guy?



## eoj89 (Aug 6, 2013)

As it says in the title.

Writing a fic (fanfic so I'm not allowed to post it on here, sorry) and there's a female character called Emily who's going to be a surrogate and I want to write from her POV.

Can any guys that've wrote from a girl's perspective tell me if it's hard or not? (I like guys as well as girls so it may be a little easier for me to write from a girl's perspective but I'd just like to know in case I go through with writing in her POV).

Replies appreciated.


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## Robert_S (Aug 6, 2013)

Well, you could think of her as a person. Just one of your everyday people with motivations, experiences, etc.


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## philistine (Aug 6, 2013)

I've personally not found any difficult with it at all. Why? Several reasons, maybe:

- My characters are people, first and foremost, so they voice their problems, their likes, their dislikes, their feelings, their reservations, etc. I think you'll find many female characters in the more famous novels are speaking almost precisely the same way as their male counterparts, just with a female name.

- I split my personality, as it were, between my characters, putting a much greater concentration into the male ones (I am a man, after all), and diluting it for the female parts. This was a technique of Marcel Proust, Dumas, and many others. Funnily enough, although I've not read it myself, this is supposedly a big 'no' in how to write books.

- I don't think I'm jumping the gun by saying that those who find writing female dialogue incredibly difficult are likely trying to pigeonhole their female characters into _obviously_ female personalities- and subsequently- feminine diction. I can't think of anything more contrived, to be honest.


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## Outiboros (Aug 6, 2013)

I've written a story that had two main characters, a man and a woman, and the female character didn't give me any more problems than the male one did. I'm a guy myself. 

Have you never written a story before, or have you always stuck to male POV characters? In any case, try writing from a female perspective. I didn't find it that challenging to write the opposite sex. It was much harder to write her as a believable doctor, someone in a war-torn world and someone generally under a lot of stress than it was to write her as a believable woman.

I also agree with what is said above. Write her as a person, not a woman.


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## OurJud (Aug 6, 2013)

philistine said:


> - I don't think I'm jumping the gun by saying that those who find writing female dialogue incredibly difficult are likely trying to pigeonhole their female characters into _obviously_ female personalities- and subsequently- feminine diction. I can't think of anything more contrived, to be honest.



I write women awfully, precisely because I do this ^^


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## Robin Murarka (Aug 6, 2013)

*


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## WechtleinUns (Aug 6, 2013)

Wome are a bit difficult to write for me, as well, although not for the reasons that were put forward. I am a big believer in the idea that women are, in fact, different from men, and therefore face different problems. I try to represent the aspects of female life in light of this.

Granted, this causes more introspection and research on my part. I am not sure if it has made a noticeable difference. Ah, well.


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## philistine (Aug 6, 2013)

WechtleinUns said:


> Wome are a bit difficult to write for me, as well, although not for the reasons that were put forward.* I am a big believer in the idea that women are, in fact, different from men,* and therefore face different problems. I try to represent the aspects of female life in light of this.
> 
> Granted, this causes more introspection and research on my part. I am not sure if it has made a noticeable difference. Ah, well.



As much as this opinion might be controversial, I believe precisely the same thing. Women are not the same as men; they think differently, feel differently, and place importance on different things during an exchange. I think understanding women (perhaps from your own relationships) will allow you to write female characters with a much greater ease.


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## Jon M (Aug 6, 2013)

Important world-changing discoveries are being made here today.


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## gmehl (Aug 6, 2013)

I agree with those men who wisely begin with the premise the character is a person who happens to be female and bear in mind that women are as varied as men.  I sometimes become a bit concerned on subtle things - vulnerability being a good example.  Men are vulnerable, too, but can (not necessarily do) react differently.  So beta reading always includes women, especially those of about the same age and style as the character.  It's not a big problem, but sometimes they help with a turn of phrase that a guy not might think of.

I like strong female characters -- style, wit, courage, intelligence, power -- and so concentrate on those characteristics rather than stereotypes.

So, yes, if you consider them as a person, a character rather than caricature, and plug in your own sensitive observations, you'll probably be 99 percent of the way there; that last one percent, not surprisingly, comes from a good and trusted source.


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## eoj89 (Aug 6, 2013)

Thanks everyone, so I write her as a normal person and not a woman? Just write how I'd normally write but with a female name?


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## gmehl (Aug 6, 2013)

Write her as a person with issues, feelings, goals (inward/outward), a personality, strengths and weaknesses who plays an important role in moving your overall plot along.  And then once you have it all together and get the opinions of good critique or beta readers, be sure to get feedback from women and ask them to pay attention nuance for the sake of credibility.


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## Skodt (Aug 6, 2013)

Women are crazy. Write her as a monster from outer space.


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## Lewdog (Aug 6, 2013)

The best thing to do, is put on women's clothes and make up like Mel Gibson in _What Women Want._


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## moderan (Aug 6, 2013)

I had this to do as part of a contest long ago. I wrote a story from both points of view, both female and male, as a sort of meet-cute. It was a fictionalized account of an actual encounter, and I had the subject of the first part (narrator of the second), go over the thing for verisimilitude, and then I had the thing vetted for accuracy. I won the contest by unanimous vote...but that's beside the point.
Males and females think somewhat differently. One of my mentors in this contest explained that women are always on a yes/no sort of tip of indecision, where men seem to decide and go ahead as decided even if things change. More or less, anyway-the explanation was more complex and involved examples that I can't remember fourteen years later.
Here are the examples:
The Redheaded League Revisited
Truth Is, Stranger...
Hope this helps-I write from either point of view, or from alien viewpoints, fairly easily these days, but this was an early stab at reasonable authenticity.
And yes...the entire novel was written. One of these days I need to edit it into shape.


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## philistine (Aug 6, 2013)

Remember that Nicholson picture, _As Good as It Gets_? For those unaware, Nicholson plays a misanthropic, OCD-tortured author who is generally quite rude to... everyone. A lady, realising who he is, asks him how he can write female characters so convincingly. He says something to the effect of: I think of a man, then I remove all traces of accountability and reason. 

Maybe you should try that. \\/


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## moderan (Aug 7, 2013)

Isn't that more than a little chauvinist? Even tongue-in-cheek, that's horrible advice.
I thought the idea of writing and then having the thing vetted would be the next best thing to dressing in drag and going through the motions. Still do. The whole idea of successful writing is to be able to get into the character's head, and to be able to translate that to an audience.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Aug 7, 2013)

eoj89 said:


> As it says in the title.
> 
> Writing a fic (fanfic so I'm not allowed to post it on here, sorry) and there's a female character called Emily who's going to be a surrogate and I want to write from her POV.
> 
> ...


Depends how sexist you are to begin with.

An edit, to note, to expand, to soften: Basically, if you can write any character who's different from you, physically and psychologically, this shouldn't be a huge barrier. And if you can't, well--that's a much bigger problem, isn't it?

If the issue is her being a surrogate (mother?) then yeah, maybe it's a challenge to write about the experience of pregnancy, but that's what research is for, right? There's about a bazillion blogs about pregnancy, go read some.


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## Lewdog (Aug 7, 2013)

Honestly the best advice I believe has already been given.  Search out the women in your life, mother, sister, girlfriend, and ask them how they would react or think given certain situations.  Just pose them in the same type of manner that the character in your story would endure.  It's much like writing any other story where you are broaching a subject that you aren't gravely familiar with already, you do research so you come across as authentic.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Aug 7, 2013)

eoj89 said:


> Can any guys that've wrote from a girl's perspective tell me if it's hard or not?



This is an odd question.  Why not write it and find out?


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## Staff Deployment (Aug 7, 2013)

eoj89 said:


> Can any guys that've wrote from a girl's perspective tell me if it's hard or not? (I like guys as well as girls so it may be a little easier for me to write from a girl's perspective but I'd just like to know in case I go through with writing in her POV).



Sometimes it's a bit touchy when describing a good-looking male character. But I figure, if someone wants to think I'm gay, that's their choice, not mine. Just because one of my characters is introduced shirtless, muscley, covered in sweat & paint, and with a voice like a resonating gong, doesn't mean that I'm attraa . . . aaaactually that sounds pretty erotic.


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## Jeko (Aug 7, 2013)

> Can any guys that've wrote from a girl's perspective tell me if it's hard or not?



I'm a guy, and I find it very hard to write from a guy's perspective. I've never been too sure why.

Likewise, experiment and find what works for you. You may not discover why, but you'll find a groove you can work with. Every writer is different.


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## OurJud (Aug 7, 2013)

philistine said:


> As much as this opinion might be controversial, I believe precisely the same thing. Women are not the same as men; they think differently, feel differently, and place importance on different things during an exchange. I think understanding women (perhaps from your own relationships) will allow you to write female characters with a much greater ease.



But you said in your last post that women in the more famous novels are written just as the men, only with female names. I think you're contradicting yourself slightly. On the one hand you say write them in the same way you write men, but with a female name, and then on the other you're saying we need to understand women before we can write as one.


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## OurJud (Aug 7, 2013)

Cadence said:


> I'm a guy, and I find it very hard to write from a guy's perspective. I've never been too sure why.



I find that very very odd.


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## Jeko (Aug 7, 2013)

> I find that very very odd.



Which I am. \\/

One of the great things about learning the craft of writing is that it uncovers how most writers are odd in some way. Harnessing that oddness can be quite powerful.


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## gmehl (Aug 7, 2013)

I still think it comes down to creating believable characters that a) help form the dramatic point of a story and b) that we care about, one way or the other, or at least evoke an emotional response regardless of gender.  Characters have degrees of depth, depending on their function in the story, but the most memorable characters touch emotional nerves that we all understand, male or female.


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## Kevin (Aug 7, 2013)

lasm said:


> There's about a bazillion blogs about pregnancy, go read some.


 Uhb....after you. Sounds thrilling 

JAT:  You could start with motivation; what do they want?; how do they go about getting it?; and what happens to them ?


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## shadowwalker (Aug 7, 2013)

Cadence said:


> I'm a guy, and I find it very hard to write from a guy's perspective. I've never been too sure why.





OurJud said:


> I find that very very odd.



I'm female and I find it hard to write women - at least women that other women can identify with, I guess. My women tend to be like me... er...

But from a female perspective for the OP - get to know your character, forgetting gender. Know what her goals are, what her weaknesses are, what her strengths are - just like any other character. Now, you may have to consider gender when determining how she reaches her goals - society plays a part in that, as do the other (male and female) characters. She may or may not be able to do the all the same things a man would because of those outside influences, but those are just possible obstacles for her that will make her more interesting - just like any male character.


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## midnightpoet (Aug 7, 2013)

I've had some luck with this - I've written some stories with a male perspective and went nowhere.  I changed the gender and they got published.  I agree with the advice given - let her be her own person, with weaknesses and strengths.   I've got two stories going at the moment, both with female protagonists - one's a sheriff, one's a killer.  One's a hero, one's an anti-hero.  I wrote back stories on both, fleshing out their characters.  What made them who they are?  What were (and are) their motivations?  Read female authors, see how they handle their characters.


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## Dictarium (Aug 7, 2013)

To be honest, I rather dislike the "well, I just think of them as human beings" Martinian response to this question. It implies that if one cannot easily write from a female perspective, that they must be thinking of women as this mystical creature which one simply cannot wrap one's mind around. Some either super- or subhuman entity that is not to be thought of on the same plane as a man.

In reality, men and women are different. Very different. They think, react, emote, and handle situations differently from one another generally and to imply that saying as much is some sort of proto-misogyny with an answer like that is ludicrous. In fact, the ability to "easily" write from a women's perspective is irrelevant. Sure, you may thin it comes naturally to you and that you can do it without thinking, but that doesn't mean you're any good at it. 

The group of kids who're given a box of Jenga and quickly and easily figure out how to play with it by building different structures and buildings out of the blocks don't know that they're doing it wrong and will surely tell you that this is how you play with Jenga blocks.


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## shadowwalker (Aug 7, 2013)

The thing is, I've never seen a female character written "wrong". I've seen female characters that I didn't like, that drove me nuts with their logic/illogic, that were too cold or too flighty - but I've known women like all of those things. I've seen female characters who were stereotypical females - but the writer wrote the men as stereotypical males, so it wasn't a problem with gender - it was a problem with characterization. So other than that, how do you write a female "wrong"?


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## TheYellowMustang (Aug 7, 2013)

I see a lot of people say "Don't think about it that way - think of her as a person, not a gender", but it is actually a relevant question. My current project has a male narrator, and when guys read my work they often find little bits here and there that sound feminine. As an example, he kept noticing what people were wearing. Guys don't do that, as I've understood it, if they don't have a reason to (like "her leather pants were so tight they could've been painted on - it was distracting me"). 

There were other things that were pointed out to me, but I don't remember them right now. My point is, there are some gender-stuff to consider when writing with a narrator of the opposite sex. I don't think you need to think about it when you write, but having a woman read through it might be a good idea. That was my approach.


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## TheYellowMustang (Aug 7, 2013)

Dictarium said:


> To be honest, I rather dislike the "well, I just think of them as human beings" Martinian response to this question.



I do too. I agree with it, but not on its own. All characters should be thought of as humans, obviously, and they should all be well-developed with personalities and all of that, BUT I still think it's important to try and put yourself into the other gender's shoes. Try and think about details and notice body-language when talking with people of the other sex, how women's language may differ from men's etc. Men and women are raised differently, we're treated differently, we follow different social norms... estrogen, testosterone... I'm not going to say that I did lots and lots of research on guys before starting my novel, but because I didn't I ended up having to re-write some stuff.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Aug 7, 2013)

Problem is there's so much variation within the sexes, even within a fairly restricted social group, that anything you try to say is going to have exceptions unless it's clearly physiological in nature. Some men notice clothing, some don't. Some like poetry and flowers, some think that stuff's for wimps. Some women play hockey and don't like cats. Yes, you can generalize, but--then you're generalizing, and you're writing a stereotype, like shadowwalker says. So I think it's much better to think about the personality of an individual, which exists within culturally defined gender norms but is not necessarily determined by them, and may in fact conflict with them.

Added note:
I think the reason that these questions can come off as sexist is that 
a) They posit women and men as homogenous groups, when they are not. 
b) Women generally try to understand men; we have to. When men claim cheerfully that they don't understand women, they're saying they _don't_ have to. 
c) Someone always posts that stupid line from _As Good As It Gets,_ as if it were a clever quip from a real writer, and not from a fictional character who is (IIRC, haven't seen it in a while) presented as highly offensive to others due, in large part, to mental illness.


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## philistine (Aug 7, 2013)

moderan said:


> Isn't that more than a little chauvinist? Even tongue-in-cheek, that's horrible advice.
> I thought the idea of writing and then having the thing vetted would be the next best thing to dressing in drag and going through the motions. Still do. The whole idea of successful writing is to be able to get into the character's head, and to be able to translate that to an audience.



Your sarcasm detector needs calibrating. :lemo:


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## Lewdog (Aug 8, 2013)

lasm said:


> *Problem is there's so much variation within the sexes, even within a fairly restricted social group, that anything you try to say is going to have exceptions unless it's clearly physiological in nature.* Some men notice clothing, some don't. Some like poetry and flowers, some think that stuff's for wimps. Some women play hockey and don't like cats. Yes, you can generalize, but--then you're generalizing, and you're writing a stereotype, like shadowwalker says. So I think it's much better to think about the personality of an individual, which exists within culturally defined gender norms but is not necessarily determined by them, and may in fact conflict with them.
> 
> Added note:
> I think the reason that these questions can come off as sexist is that
> ...



Now I wasn't going to say anything but I thought this would make a good learning experience for us all.  You contradicted yourself in your own post.  First you said that there is so much variation between the individual sexes that you shouldn't generalize unless it is about the _physiological_ aspect, then later on you, yourself generalize about the difference between how a man and a woman are _psychologically_ different when referring to how they view their understanding of the opposite sex.  See how easy that was to do?  Maybe you shouldn't be so hard to label men who make a comment or ask questions about women as sexist or chauvinist so easily.  It's not so hard to make an innocent comment that can be construed, even when you are making a post that is trying to chide that same action.

Can't we all just get along and not take everything so serious all the time?


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## Jeko (Aug 8, 2013)

I believe lasm was saying that generalizations exist, but they're not good material for writing characters. At least that's what I inferred.


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## Myers (Aug 8, 2013)

I also took it that lasm was again speaking in general terms; "when men claim cheerfully that they don't understand women," doesn't mean all men think that way. I believe she's referring specifically to men who make that claim. So yes, comments are sometimes misconstrued.


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## Lewdog (Aug 8, 2013)

Myers said:


> I also took it that lasm was again speaking in general terms; "when men claim cheerfully that they don't understand women," doesn't mean all men think that way. I believe she's referring specifically to men who make that claim. So yes, comments are sometimes misconstrued.





> _Yes, you can generalize, but--then you're generalizing, and you're writing a stereotype, like shadowwalker says. So I think it's much better to think about the personality of an individual, which exists within culturally defined gender norms but is not necessarily determined by them, and may in fact conflict with them._





> b) Women *generally* try to understand men; we have to. When men claim cheerfully that they don't understand women, they're saying they don't have to.



...If the entire first paragraph of the post was missing I would have actually laughed a little at statement B and moved on.  With that said, you can't make a statement about how generalizing is a stereotype and not necessarily about individuals and may cause conflict, and then make a statement about a general (generalizing) psychological difference between the sexes right afterwards.

If you are a man and you don't take offence to statement B  (if you take the comment seriously which I really don't personally, but I'm my own person) then you aren't seeing what it is really saying.  As a man at some point in your life you have or will ask a woman what she thinks or feels about something.  If as stated you don't have to understand women, then your action is being disingenuous.  If you are being disingenuous in your relationship with your female counterpart, that means you are a liar.  So that leads to the final destination that in general, men are liars.  Now, you would be hard pressed to find anyone male or female in their lifetime that hasn't told a lie, even the smallest kind, BUT I think this statement is more of a bitter kind towards men being liars in relationships which is quite a different animal.

If you even go back to the first part of the statement, it's stated that women try to understand men because they 'have to.'  Why do women HAVE to do it and men don't?  You can't argue against and fight the idea of sexism and at the same time cultivate it.  Fact is, if you ask most men, women hold most of the control in the relationships and men have to understand what they want, and the men who will answer to the contrary are normally the ones who will pursue only weak-minded women with low self-esteem, or those that care more about material things than emotional ones.  So REAL men who want a REAL strong confident woman, have to understand women just as much as the woman has to understand him.

That's my two cents.


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## Staff Deployment (Aug 8, 2013)

I think that, despite the unfortunately ironic use of the word "generally", Lasm is right. A general view of things won't be useful in nailing down any one character and there is no paradigm that will transform cruddy female characters into good female characters, any more than there's a paradigm that makes characters better overall.

By the way I am extremely tired, and this was what I was originally going to post . . .
[spoiler2=I don't even, what? Okay]Man, chicks are too complicated for me, I just give 'em chocolate

It's like here you go lady, have a mars bar, this one's on the house
Why thank you, Staff Deployment
You're welcome, Lady Who is Now in Possession of a Mars Bar

followed immediately by

You're welcome, Lady Who is No Longer in Possession of a Mars Bar Due to the Consumption of Said Mars Bar[/spoiler2]


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## Myers (Aug 8, 2013)

I am not offended by statement "b." Again, I believe lasm is referring to men who make those kinds of statements, and there are plenty of them. I don’t think they’re liars, I think they’re just taking the pressure off themselves by throwing up their hands and saying, “I don’t get women.” And of course, there are women out there who do the same thing.

Things get rather tedious pretty quickly when you try to qualify everything in an effort not to offend. Beyond that, it’s up to lasm to provide clarification; if she’s so inclined.


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## Lewdog (Aug 8, 2013)

Myers said:


> I am not offended by statement "b." Again, I believe lasm is referring to men who make those kinds of statements, and there are plenty of them. I don’t think they’re liars, I think they’re just taking the pressure off themselves by throwing up their hands and saying, “I don’t get women.” And of course, there are women out there who do the same thing.
> 
> Things get rather tedious pretty quickly when you try to qualify everything in an effort not to offend. Beyond that, it’s up to lasm to provide clarification; if she’s so inclined.



When you use the word "Generally" it mean more often than not, which would mean a majority.  I guess you need to take the statement as a whole and not as a single post.  The real point being most importantly that quickly labeling individuals is not something one should do:



> _Added note:_
> _I think the reason that these questions can come off as sexist is that_


_ 
_
There was a time that I posted a satirical piece that dating would be simpler if it went back to the days of cavemen, and I was quickly labeled as "condoning rape."  There are just certain words and phrases people should not be so quick to throw around as it can be just as hurtful, if not more hurtful than the original comments.  If a person was to come into this thread not knowing philistine or the OP and read the comments that have been made in this thread, they would already have a misguided preconceived idea of what kind of person they are from a unfair first impression that was not deserved.  

If someone wants to end a poor habit of society, the best way is not to strike back, but take the higher ground of educating the offenders and trying to change the culture.  Striking back with negative stereotypes and mislabeling people is tantamount to a parent spanking their child as they repeatedly yell at them that it is not okay to hit others.


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## gmehl (Aug 8, 2013)

TheYellowMustang said:


> ... there are some gender-stuff to consider when writing with a narrator of the opposite sex. I don't think you need to think about it when you write, but having a woman read through it might be a good idea.



Precisely.  I _tend_ to think that writing POV across genders is challenging, but not necessarily impossible.  Beginning with characters defined more by personality and traits is a helpful _starting point_, and empathy through observation and education is _helpful._  I also suspect that a guy on the more feminine end of the male spectrum writing a woman on the more masculine end of the female spectrum is going to enjoy a _higher probability_ of comfort, but a masculine guy _could have_ a difficult time as a feminine girl.

This doesn't mean it can't, or shouldn't be done, but beta readers of the gender involved are certainly valuable editing resources.  For either gender, writing the opposite point of view can be challenging and enlightening, but if it's not a preference, then a more omniscient narrative POV might make the experience more comfortable.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Aug 8, 2013)

Hoo boy, there I was peacefully sleeping away. Okay. Clarifications. I shall make a list. I like lists.

a) It is possible to make generalizations about gender norms. However, I think this is not a good way to approach a _specific_ case, i.e. writing a character. This is what I meant in the first paragraph of my previous post.

For example, here is a generalization:
"Most men like football."
I don't think it's sexist to say this; in my experience it's generally true (even in countries where "football" doesn't mean NFL-style football). Doesn't mean there aren't men who hate football and women who love it, but it's _generally _true. It would be a sexist statement if I tried to claim that it were universal, that _all_ men like football, or if I tried to claim a physiological, universal reason for it (that men like football because testosterone rawr).

However, say I'm going to write a character. Say this character is a guy from Green Bay. Must love the Packers, right? But then if I think about my character, I might realize he's sort of a counterculture type, can't wait to escape his hometown, that kind of thing, and I might decide to make him disinterested in football. He's surrounded by rabid Packers fans and all he wants to do is run away to Milwaukee and listen to records. He might even hate football.

So: Generalizations, and gender norms, exist. But if you let them decide everything about your particular characters, you're going to end up with flat, boring stereotypes for characters, is the point. (Thanks, Cadence, Myers, and Staff.)

b) I never said _all_ men run around claiming they can't understand women. Don't think they do. But _some_ men do, and _when_ they do, yes, I think it's a sort of unconsciously sexist gesture that posits women as unworthy/unnecessary for understanding. 

Yes, maybe all men will someday ask a woman what she means, but this is individual. Sometimes I don't understand my husband, sometimes he doesn't understand me. But this is not due to the fact that I'm female/he's male, doesn't mean he doesn't understand women in general or I don't understand men, it's because we're different people. Again, Lewdog, you're confusing the general with the particular--the general "Women, who really understands them!" type statement, with the particular, "Please tell me what you mean," statement.
(Thanks, Myers.)

c) I haven't called anyone in this thread a sexist. People were questioning why others sometimes perceive such questions as the OP's as sexist. I'm explaining it. Philistine posted a joke that is sexist, that he knows perfectly well to be sexist; I assume he thinks it's funny. Didn't call _him_ sexist. Just pointed out that the appearance of sexist jokes does not help the discussion to avoid the appearance of sexism.

d) Lewdog, I don't see where I've presented any negative stereotypes or labeled, or mislabeled, anyone in this thread. I think you're stretching my actual statements into something they're not. Now, it seems that you enjoy getting in extended arguments, but I don't--nor do I feel like revisiting the caveman piece--so you're going to have to be satisfied with this clarification, and those that others see fit to provide, because I've said quite a bit here and probably will not say much more.


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## Lewdog (Aug 8, 2013)

It started with post #18, which has since been edited:



> Depends how sexist you are to begin with.
> 
> An edit, to note, to expand, to soften: Basically, if you can write any character who's different from you, physically and psychologically, this shouldn't be a huge barrier. And if you can't, well--that's a much bigger problem, isn't it?
> 
> If the issue is her being a surrogate (mother?) then yeah, maybe it's a challenge to write about the experience of pregnancy, but that's what research is for, right? There's about a bazillion blogs about pregnancy, go read some.



I'm not trying to extend any argument, I just think too many times, both here and in the past you've thrown out words and labels towards people that I think is unfair, and if you have an agenda of bringing forward that people's innocent statements are sexist, chauvinistic, etc., that you are going about it the wrong way to change the culture of the offenders and the board.  You might think Meyers is backing your point, but actually he is more agreeing with me than you when he says:



> Things get rather tedious pretty quickly when you try to qualify everything in an effort not to offend. Beyond that, it’s up to lasm to provide clarification; if she’s so inclined.



The way I'm taking what he is saying as, people should be given the benefit of the doubt and not have to walk around on egg shells with every post worrying about if they are going to offend someone.  Which is the key point I'm making here, and one which I was not afforded by people in the past in my caveman piece.  Until I get an apology for the statement that was made there, I will in fact always be offended by that, and I don't think it is fair to see others be labeled here with negative terms as well.  Something is either sexist or not, you don't get to pick and choose what generalities people place on the sexes and say which are offensive and which ones aren't.  I've known women that are huge football fans, and they would be offended if someone in front of them said something about "Generally girls don't know as much about football because generally women aren't fans of football."  So just because your reference to football may not be offensive to you, it certainly could be to another woman.  So ANY statement that made as a stereotype can cause conflict to someone.  

Your line about philistine in no way to me suggests what your defense is, maybe you should be a little more clear when you make such a broad and sweeping statement, so as not to allow even the possibility of confusion that you are inferring that the poster is sexist, though I find it hard to believe that there can be a distinction between making sexist (serious, not in jest) comments, and being sexist.

I think the largest problem here is that certain people just take things too seriously, and before you go on a tangent about the seriousness of the topic, let me point out that pretty much all your top comedians and comediennes of the present often make sexiest jokes.  Sarah Silverman, Jimmy Kimmel, Adam Corrola, Amy Schumer, Daniel Tosh, Anthony Jeselnik, etc., who are all currently, or have recently been on television, because they are obviously liked by enough people to get to where they are, make jokes about race, sex, stereotypes, and all kinds of topics and people find them funny.  So, all I'm asking, and have ever asked, is not be so quick to judge people on what they post, and for goodness sakes lighten up a bit.


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## Jeko (Aug 8, 2013)

Lewdog, I thought you said:



> Can't we all just get along and not take everything so serious all the time?



I think you're taking lasm's words too seriously. And I don't believe your comments are making a good learning experience for us all; they are, in fact, starting to deviate from the topic of the thread.


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## Lewdog (Aug 8, 2013)

Cadence said:


> Lewdog, I thought you said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're taking lasm's words too seriously. And I don't believe your comments are making a good learning experience for us all; they are, in fact, starting to deviate from the topic of the thread.




It's hard to understand how to write as the opposite sex without debating how others view the opposite sex.  I do want to get along and I believe I have gone quite a long time without making any personal comments about anyone.    I'm just asking for the same courtesy in return and the respect that others deserve as well.  Only pointing out my statements isn't exactly making a positive effect either.


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## Jeko (Aug 8, 2013)

> It's hard to understand how to write as the opposite sex without debating how others view the opposite sex.



No it's not. It's just a way of turning this into a very long and pointless debate thread, and I wouldn't like eoj89's thread to be the platform for such a thing. Not sure how he/she feels about it, but I myself have found this thread insightful without any debate whatsoever.


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## Lewdog (Aug 8, 2013)

Cadence said:


> No it's not. It's just a way of turning this into a very long and pointless debate thread, and I wouldn't like eoj89's thread to be the platform for such a thing. Not sure how he/she feels about it, but I myself have found this thread insightful without any debate whatsoever.



So you didn't find any usefulness in my last post where I mentioned how just because one female thinks football as a generalization is not offensive, yet I have experienced the exact opposite first hand?  Look, if you want to discuss this further feel free to message me, but point is, in your position as staff, as is the position of any person in management whether on a forum or in real life, is to not single people out in front of others.  It's very disrespectful.  If you want to make a point that you thought the conversation was getting off topic, you simply do as many other staff here do, and make a post asking that everyone please work on getting the discussion back on topic.  

:cookie:


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## Myers (Aug 8, 2013)

This is about writing fiction. My characters don't hold the same beliefs that I do; in fact sometimes they're just about the opposite. So my personal views aren't really relevant to the topic.


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## Jon M (Aug 8, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> So you didn't find any usefulness in my last post [snip]


Personally, the usefulness stopped around the time you began playing gotcha games.


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## Tettsuo (Aug 8, 2013)

To me, the only difference between the sexes is often around social expectations and socialized behaviors.

A woman is more apt to be concerned about being alone with a man they don't know because they are socialized to be concerned about that (with good reason).
Men are more likely than women to be fearful of being perceived as weak or a homosexual not due to some genetic difference, but due to how our society socializes us to view masculinity.

The list can go on and on.

First get an understanding of the social pressures women are placed under.  That's the best way imo to understand how to write about the opposite sex.


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## 1st Spear (Aug 8, 2013)

I think your asking the wrong question. Its not 'is this what a woman would say?'. You should instead ask 'will the reader think this is inconsistant with the rest of her character?'. Remember that what is written is not the end result. How it is *perceived and interpreted* is the end result.

When i write a female character i assume that she is going to be perceived as a tomboy or more masculine than a normal woman. That is because I am writing her as i would understand her, and I have NEVER understood 'frilly' or 'girly-girls'.


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## Staff Deployment (Aug 8, 2013)

1st Spear said:


> When i write a female character i assume that she is going to be perceived as a tomboy or more masculine than a normal woman. That is because I am writing her as i would understand her, and I have NEVER understood 'frilly' or 'girly-girls'.



I think there are ways of showing femininity without resorting to frills and pink dresses and shopping. Unless it's actually a child, that sort of thing seems to tell me more about the (lack of) maturity of the character than how feminine she is.


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## shadowwalker (Aug 8, 2013)

Staff Deployment said:


> I think there are ways of showing femininity without resorting to frills and pink dresses and shopping. Unless it's actually a child, that sort of thing seems to tell me more about the (lack of) maturity of the character than how feminine she is.



I wouldn't say it's about maturity. I personally know several women who are "girly-girls" - they may know what a hammer is, may even know how to hold one, but have absolutely no interest in using it. They like "fancy" clothes, won't wear jeans unless they're designer with lots of bangles and beads, love shopping - but they are _no way_ immature. Their interests simply lie in other directions. On the other end, I've known a lot of "tom-boys" who had the maturity level of ten-year-olds - their whole thing is showing how 'tough' they are.


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## Skodt (Aug 8, 2013)

Writing a woman is just as complex as writing a man. None of them should be one dimensional. No matter their perception. Making a woman who only bakes and is dumbfounded by every day activity, is like writing your male character in a suit and giving him a briefcase; then bringing him home to eat a cardboard box because he can't work the stove. 

People are people and it shouldn't be about how one sex would react. It should be how your character would react. People are not their actions. Sure they are made of actions, but also emotions, thoughts, ideas, passions, interest, and a whole slue of other things. 

The better question here is this..... How hard is it to write a person? Because people are complex.


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## bookmasta (Aug 8, 2013)

I've done this in a novel with rotating third person povs every other chapter. It wasn't that hard at all.


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## Terry D (Aug 8, 2013)

I want to thank you all for bringing this thread back on-topic.


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## Greimour (Aug 9, 2013)

I don't have any problem with this at all. (Or should I say, no more than I do with a guy?)

I find first person difficult to write in regardless of which gender I write for, but all in all, I find writing a male or female protagonist to be no different.

14-y-old female is more mature than a male, that is pretty much the only stereotypical point of view I slip into. Medically proven fact or not, I find it to be true and I show it in my writing if/when it comes up... but other than that, I write females as a person, the same as I do males.
I don't think I would know how to add "female" personalities, personalities are neither male nor female in my opinion. Just a formulated essence to a person as a direct result from everything that directly affected the upbringing since birth of the person.

Two men in the same room not speaking are not likely to be thinking about the same thing. Especially if one is watching the news whilst the other is searching the paper for what the football results were. A woman may be just as likely to be searching that paper for a football teams results, many get just as into it as men do. On the other hand, she might be checking a magazine for her horoscope, but likewise there are many men who do the same - secretly or otherwise.
No matter what parrallel you draw between man and woman, there is almost always one or more of the opposite gender who do the exact same... and thats without including homosexuality. When you include that, then the window just opens further.

As long as the woman you are writing about is a real person, with a real personality and real goals, beliefs and history... then it is no different from writing a mans point of view. (Even in fiction, the person is real... you may have made her up in your head, but in your head she is real so she has to be painted as real when you talk about her. Imaginary friends are still friends and they still exist)

I hope I explained myself well enough.

Anger, Hate, Love, Action, Reaction... Works the same way whether man or woman. 

Twilight! whats-her-name ... Bella... first person female narrative... imagine it if you've read it; turn Edward into Bella; a female vampire - and Bella into Edward... the boy who moved to forks with his Police Chief father... tell the exact same story, the exact same way,(well... change prom dress to tuxedo, and dont go clothes shopping with that annoying girl, go with that annoying blonde guy that liked Bella... I don't know if you need to change Jacob Black, maybe make him Gay? Who cares... point is...) if Bella was a dude and Edward was a female... Bell-Edward's personality, actions, reactions, thoughts and so forth throughout would have been the same.

Female Bella or Male Bella... the personality is fine in both instances. Sitting in room for months after desserted by the vampire lover - fine whether male or female. Rushing off to death when hunted by a Vampire that might kill the one you love - also fine whether male or female. Wanting to move in with your father after your mom remarried; again, fine whether male or female... I could continue like that for the entire thing. 

Hunger Games, Make Katniss a guy - Hunted in the woods, volunteered to replace little sister in the Hunger Games, Pretended to love the secret admirer female that was also chosen during the reaping - hunted in the woods with a potential love interest back home in district 12... the exact same personality but in a male... it still works. Very small minor tweaks possibly needed.


I will stop there, I think I have explained myself well enough... Male or Female - Same.


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## Jeko (Aug 9, 2013)

> Male or Female - Same.



I would disagree; on the face of things you could simply change genders and the simple, synoptic elements of a novel wouldn't change. But a fully developed character has a lot of qualities that would change if you changed their gender, and that might not change the story, but it would likely change how the story was told.


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## dale (Aug 9, 2013)

i love writing female dialogue. i get to make women say exactly what i want them to. it's like a dream come true.


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## Tettsuo (Aug 9, 2013)

1st Spear said:


> I think your asking the wrong question. Its not 'is this what a woman would say?'. You should instead ask 'will the reader think this is inconsistant with the rest of her character?'. Remember that what is written is not the end result. How it is *perceived and interpreted* is the end result.
> 
> When i write a female character i assume that she is going to be perceived as a tomboy or more masculine than a normal woman. That is because I am writing her as i would understand her, and I have NEVER understood 'frilly' or 'girly-girls'.


It's easier than you think.

Why are they girly-girls or frilly?  What about the character and their life created or reinforced that behavior?  Did her mother treat her like a doll and heap tons of her own feelings around beauty and it's worth to her daughter?  Did the father discourage any "boy" behaviors in his daughter?  Etc.

Why is the character the way they are.  That's the question you need ask.  Once you figure that out, it'll be a whole lot easier to write the character.  It'll all make sense.


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## Tettsuo (Aug 9, 2013)

Cadence said:


> I would disagree; on the face of things you could simply change genders and the simple, synoptic elements of a novel wouldn't change. But a fully developed character has a lot of qualities that would change if you changed their gender, and that might not change the story, but it would likely change how the story was told.


I don't necessarily agree.  There certainly women that are tough as nails and men that are effeminate. It totally depends on the character.


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## philistine (Aug 9, 2013)

Tettsuo said:


> I don't necessarily agree.  There certainly women that are tough as nails and men that are effeminate. It totally depends on the character.



Quite right. One need look no further than the plays of Shaw to find that out.


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## Jeko (Aug 9, 2013)

> I don't necessarily agree. There certainly women that are tough as nails and men that are effeminate. It totally depends on the character.



Then a writer should have no qualms with changing the gender of their MC.


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## TheYellowMustang (Aug 9, 2013)

Cadence said:


> Then a writer should have no qualms with changing the gender of their MC.



I don't understand why some people are so stubborn about this. Why does it seem strange that one might relate less to someone from the opposite sex? It doesn't mean men and women are different species, it doesn't even mean that we're really all that different. It's still natural that some people might feel like they're writing from the perspective of someone different than themselves. All women are different, all men are different. I still feel like I can understand women better, and I still find it easier to write from women's perspective because I don't have the same doubts. I still wrote my novel with a male narrator, but that doesn't mean I didn't have difficulties doing that.

"Would a man think like that?" "Would a man notice this?" "Would a man say it like that?" 
Even though those kinds of questions might be unnecessary (I personally don't think they are), even though they might not be what you should focus on, that doesn't mean it's unnatural to ask them.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Aug 9, 2013)

Don't think it's unnatural to ask those questions or that anyone is saying it is. Just that it is more fruitful and pertinent to ask, "Would _this_ man think like that?" a question which does not assume that all men think the same way and instead considers the character as an individual.


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## Tettsuo (Aug 9, 2013)

Cadence said:


> Then a writer should have no qualms with changing the gender of their MC.


Again, not necessarily.

I'm sure you'd agree that the social pressures for a woman is totally different than for a man.  So men and women have to face much different obstacles, expectations and responses to their actions.

My point is only that it's not about gender as much as it's about society and upbringing.  Rules change for different cultures as does the pressures that affect the sexes.  Even the most butch lesbian with tons of military training will have a different response to their words and actions than a dude with exactly the same stats.  It's not the sex of the characters, but how the world views them and as a result, how they view themselves.


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## enchantedsecret24 (Aug 9, 2013)

I write from a guys pov pretty often and I'm a chick, so shouldn't be too tough. You would think that it would be but for me it isn't any tougher than writing from a girls pov. You don't have to worry about "doing it wrong" because it's your character. If she turns out to be a bit of a tomboy because you had trouble making her feminine enough then so be it! She can be whoever you want her to be, just have fun with it and don't worry so much!


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## TheYellowMustang (Aug 10, 2013)

lasm said:


> Don't think it's unnatural to ask those questions or that anyone is saying it is. Just that it is more fruitful and pertinent to ask, "Would _this_ man think like that?" a question which does not assume that all men think the same way and instead considers the character as an individual.



But why are the two mutually exclusive? Why can't you ask "would a man think like that?" AND "Would this man think like that"?


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## Deleted member 49710 (Aug 10, 2013)

TheYellowMustang said:


> But why are the two mutually exclusive? Why can't you ask "would a man think like that?" AND "Would this man think like that"?


Why are you calling me a liar?!

whaddyamean you... wait... [rereads post] okay, so you didn't call me a liar.

Why are we asking each other to explain things neither of us ever said?!


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## TheYellowMustang (Aug 10, 2013)

lasm said:


> Why are you calling me a liar?!
> 
> whaddyamean you... wait... [rereads post] okay, so you didn't call me a liar.
> 
> Why are we asking each other to explain things neither of us ever said?!



I have no idea... Cheers to getting along and everyone agreeing that this is all just a big question without any real conclusion.


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## Odd Greg (Aug 10, 2013)

In my opinion...

This is a fair question. I suppose that some would believe that it isn’t truly possible to think like anyone else, whether it is a male or a female. This, of course, is not true. It’s easier for people, be they male or female, to write from the perspective of multiple personalities than it is to mimic them in person. In written form we are able to characterize the person without filling in too many details. The best writing, anyway, allows the reader to fill-in the details.

The way is through experience. I know and have known a lot of women in my days, just as I know and have known a lot of men. If we are open to experiencing people as they are, we are able to see their qualities and characteristics. If we are able to go the extra mile – that of feeling sympathy and sometimes empathy for others – it is possible to imagine ourselves in their shoes, so to speak.

Women and men are different, no matter what the current politically correct fashion of thought may indicate. It is important for a man, when writing a woman, to immerse himself into female feelings and thoughts, of what its like to live in the world as a female, and of how a female life differs from male life. The point is of perspective. We are all human beings, and yet we only share certain characteristics – our psychologies differ widely. So there are many commonalities between men and women, and we all share the same potential for thought, action, and reaction to any given circumstances.

Men and women are the same but different, different but the same. But a woman does see the same world that a man sees from an objective point of view, but it is much different from a subjective point of view.

How I write female characters is through sympathy and empathy earned through years spent with my family – my mothers and sister. Through my wife and my wife’s mother and sisters, and my children’s wife and girlfriends. Through reading many books written by women about women, and often for women. By observing women in the world as I walk about and talk with them. Men are not devoid of understanding what women are, how they think, and what makes their view of the world different from theirs. I observe, sympathize, listen, and above all – pay attention.

The hardest part of writing from a female point of view is the actual writing itself. But as long as we don’t generalize, lean unnecessarily on tired archetypes and stereotypes, or cynically editorialize, then it’s relatively easy to characterize a number of female personalities in a story.

I say relatively easy because writing is always hard, even when it flows easily. Dialog is our best and most critical friend in characterizing a female or a male. Effective dialog must account first for the nature of the way a given person speaks, but must also account for the difference in the way a female may say essentially the same thing as a male would say, yet in terms that relate to her world perspective.

Or so I believe. You would have to read my dialogs to know whether or not I am any good at it. Honestly, the jury is still out on that one.


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## Tiamat (Aug 10, 2013)

I think this is kind of a silly question.  Most of what gives a character (or a person) depth is the fact that they don't fit into one nice, neat little stereotype.  Not all chicks like to spend their days shopping and getting manicures and then going home and faking a headache to avoid "sleeping" with their husband.  And not all men like to work on cars all day and then watch football and drink beer.  

I'm a chick.  I know how to crochet, sew, and I find contentment in cleaning.  However, I've never once gotten a manicure, nor faked a headache, and it just so happens that I'm rather partial to football and beer.  I have a guy friend who's also partial to football and beer, but he gets regular manicures (and pedicures) and spends more time primping himself in one day than I do in the average week.

If your characters act believably, regardless of their gender, that's all the matters.  I'm not saying it's easy to do, because it's certainly not.  Writing from a perspective that's different from your own is challenging, but just because I happen to lack the Y chromosome doesn't mean I can't write a believable male character.  Or vice versa.


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## TheYellowMustang (Aug 10, 2013)

Tiamat said:


> I think this is kind of a silly question.  Most of what gives a character (or a person) depth is the fact that they don't fit into one nice, neat little stereotype.  Not all chicks like to spend their days shopping and getting manicures and then going home and faking a headache to avoid "sleeping" with their husband.  And not all men like to work on cars all day and then watch football and drink beer.
> 
> I'm a chick.  I know how to crochet, sew, and I find contentment in cleaning.  However, I've never once gotten a manicure, nor faked a headache, and it just so happens that I'm rather partial to football and beer.  I have a guy friend who's also partial to football and beer, but he gets regular manicures (and pedicures) and spends more time primping himself in one day than I do in the average week.
> 
> If your characters act believably, regardless of their gender, that's all the matters.  I'm not saying it's easy to do, because it's certainly not.  Writing from a perspective that's different from your own is challenging, but just because I happen to lack the Y chromosome doesn't mean I can't write a believable male character.  Or vice versa.



But it's not about manicures, shopping, little dogs in purses, football, beer or any hobbies or "likes and dislikes", is it? It's about women and men and whether or not we think and react in the same way. By saying that, I realize I am in a way generalizing, just so we're clear. 

A girl walks into the room. She is a friend of Joe and Jane. Would Joe and Jane perceive that in the same way? Would they notice the same things? Would they describe those things in the same way? If the girl says "BlahBlah broke up with me," would Joe and Jane's responses be the same? 

Isn't that what we're discussing here?


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## Tiamat (Aug 10, 2013)

I see your point, but I think it boils down to the same thing.  If Jessica walks into the room, Jane and Joe are going to respond to her different--absolutely.  But so would Jane and Maria.  People, in general, see and react to things differently.  Sure, Jane might notice that Jessica is carrying a designer purse and Joe might check out her rack.  But maybe Jane checks out her rack, too.  I'm not even going for the lesbian angle, either.  You and I are both female.  Have you ever noticed another woman's cleavage?  I have.  Sometimes you just do.  But ultimately, it depends on the person and usually doesn't have anything to do with whether they're a man or a woman.

My whole point here is this:  I'm a girl.  I can write a story about a man, not because I think like one, but because whatever character I create is going to act according to his personality.  A chauvinistic cynic would be like Joe--he would notice a woman's rack before he noticed anything else about her.  An effeminate metro sexual would probably notice the purse first.  Know your characters every bit as well as you know yourself, and then you'll be able to write them.  Male, female, gay, straight, black, or white--it won't matter.  They just have to act (and react) according to their personality.


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## Odd Greg (Aug 10, 2013)

*Tiamat,*

My editor (as I will call her) is a woman, as are the grand majority of my readers, if you can call 10 out of 11 a grand anything. I have depended on them to steer me clear of stereotypical characterizations, and to give me valuable feedback on whether or not the females in my writing are believable.


  Most of my stories have a female protagonist, and females in both roles of victim or perpetrator. I think good stories need a representative blend of male and female, and I dislike gender wars in stories. It’s just the way I feel about it. Instead, I think men and women are what make up the real world, and either gender is likely to do one thing or another.

  But readers often aren’t looking for realistic characters – be they male or female – but rather archetypical characters that may be larger than life, or terribly diminished. Reading a book probably shouldn’t be like looking out the window, but rather like peering through the looking glass. Well, at least in the genres I write.

  I’m not interested in spirited debate or angry responses. I’ll leave that up to others. I am interested, though, in joining in on these conversations. In the very least I learn what buttons not to push, or what buttons intimately affect others. Could be useful in writing.

This no doubt sounds cliche, and for that I apologize - but I do respect your opinion, as I do the others.


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## TheYellowMustang (Aug 10, 2013)

Tiamat said:


> I see your point, but I think it boils down to the same thing.  If Jessica walks into the room, Jane and Joe are going to respond to her different--absolutely.  But so would Jane and Maria.  People, in general, see and react to things differently.  Sure, Jane might notice that Jessica is carrying a designer purse and Joe might check out her rack.  But maybe Jane checks out her rack, too.  I'm not even going for the lesbian angle, either.  You and I are both female.  Have you ever noticed another woman's cleavage?  I have.  Sometimes you just do.  But ultimately, it depends on the person and usually doesn't have anything to do with whether they're a man or a woman.
> 
> My whole point here is this:  I'm a girl.  I can write a story about a man, not because I think like one, but because whatever character I create is going to act according to his personality.  A chauvinistic cynic would be like Joe--he would notice a woman's rack before he noticed anything else about her.  An effeminate metro sexual would probably notice the purse first.  Know your characters every bit as well as you know yourself, and then you'll be able to write them.  Male, female, gay, straight, black, or white--it won't matter.  They just have to act (and react) according to their personality.



I don't disagree with you, I just think there exists a typical "guy-language" that might take some extra concentration to get into as a girl. Is it generalizing? Sure. And should we even focus on what is typical? That's debatable. But I still think it exists. 

And with my example, I wasn't really thinking about it like "Joe would notice her cleavage and Jane wouldn't." I was thinking more in the lines of Joe might notice she's wearing black clothes and looking a bit off, while Jane might notice she's wearing her new black jeans (that would be a bit more generalizing than the next half of my sentence) and is looking _sad_. The part of the brain that detects and interprets emotions is actually different in men and women - physically different. (side note: I think it's called the limbic system or something? Three months since my exam in psychology, and I've already forgotten everything...) 

That doesn't mean I think "girl" or "boy" qualifies as a personality, I just think gender is something to keep in mind when writing from the perspective of a narrator that is of the opposite sex. 

Like Sebastian. When I write about a situation from his point of view I don't ask myself "What would a guy think?", I ask "What would _Sebastian_ think?"
But Sebastian being a guy affects the answer to that question.. I guess that is my point.


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## TheYellowMustang (Aug 10, 2013)

Odd Greg's post above mine made me want to add something. 

I don't think writers should place females and males in typical "gender roles". I don't think the antagonists should be male, I don't think the females should be the victims or the damsels in distress. I wrote my novel with both a female and a male villain, and the female is the most evil one. I didn't even think twice about that, it had nothing to do with her gender. It just suited her character. 

So for me, differentiating between men and women is not about giving them certain roles, hobbies, traits or anything like that - it's about making making their language, perception and thought-process just sort of... "fit". 

Does that make sense?

EDIT: Again, I still think personality comes before gender in all of this. I just don't think gender should be forgotten or ignored.


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## Odd Greg (Aug 10, 2013)

TheYellowMustang said:


> Odd Greg's post above mine made me want to add something.
> 
> I don't think writers should place females and males in typical "gender roles". I don't think the antagonists should be male, I don't think the females should be the victims or the damsels in distress. I wrote my novel with both a female and a male villain, and the female is the most evil one. I didn't even think twice about that, it had nothing to do with her gender. It just suited her character.
> 
> ...



This is true in my opinion. I find nothing in your comment that compels me to reply in detail. My character choices are dictated by the story, for me, and not a conscious decision to highlight one or the other. 

But I will say this: My latest story, for example, is about a young woman who faces another world where the antagonists are both male and female, as well as the side characters. Point being, yes, I agree with you. It's about presenting our characters as they are without per-conception based on gender. It's all in the story, and making them as believable as possible, which does take into account how they fit in their environment. I think we all know that cliche is a story killer.


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## Tiamat (Aug 11, 2013)

Odd Greg said:
			
		

> But readers  often aren’t looking for realistic characters – be they male or female –  but rather archetypical characters that may be larger than life, or  terribly diminished. Reading a book probably shouldn’t be like looking  out the window, but rather like peering through the looking glass. Well,  at least in the genres I write.


I agree with this, but at the same time, I disagree.  Firstly, one could argue that genre does have an impact on the type of characters presented.  I'll concede that.  A thriller wouldn't be a thriller if the protagonist were the average Joe Schmoe.  The same holds true for most genres, I'd imagine.  But at the same time, when I say realistic characters, I'm not talking about a replica of your unemployed neighbor who does nothing but watch TV and eat Cheetos all day.  I'm talking about characters who act according to their nature, whose back story contributes logically to the person they've become, and whose motivation makes sense.  If you're writing a chick lit novel about Jackie, who was raised by an abusive father, and is rather uptight around men and afraid to fall in love, that's a realistic character.  The reader would, therefore, understand her fear, her inner conflict, and not feel as though Jackie is acting contrary to her nature by suddenly excusing herself when Jack asks for her number.  



			
				TheYellowMustang said:
			
		

> Like Sebastian. When I write about a situation from his point of view I  don't ask myself "What would a guy think?", I ask "What would _Sebastian_ think?"
> But Sebastian being a guy affects the answer to that question.. I guess that is my point.


I think you and I are making the same point--differently.  I think you're spot on when you ask yourself "What would Sebastian think?"  And yes, of course, he's a guy.  You factor that in as you're deciding what he would think, but you also factor in everything else.  Rich, arrogant, self-absorbed, vain, male.  It's only when you consider his _character_ that you really know what he would think.  Being a guy contributes to it, certainly, but it's not the end all be all.


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## Odd Greg (Aug 11, 2013)

> I'm talking about characters who act according to their nature, whose  back story contributes logically to the person they've become, and whose  motivation makes sense.



I think my post above yours, *Tiamat*, may address this point affirmatively. I believe there is much that we agree upon, semantics possibly notwithstanding. I have no argument with your response.


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## MaeyMaeyCute (Aug 12, 2013)

I'm so happy that you have put concern into this issue.  I think many mature writers subconsciously integrate a character's gender into their speech and thought but this is not as common with amateurs.  I am a woman and sometimes I have to write from a male perspective.  When writing as a character of different gender than your own I think it's always helpful to think of real life examples.  Do you have a mother, sister, girlfriend, or wife?  A female classmate or coworker perhaps?  Even the cashier at Kroger could help inspire your inner female alter ego.  As a writer it helps to study people and their personalities.  When speaking to your female friend, study her.  What is her speech pattern?  How does she phrase her thoughts?  Is she serious?  Is she funny?  You could also try putting yourself in a woman's shoes or even interviewing a lady friend.  No matter what feelings you may have concerning the opposite gender I think it's important to get rid of stereotypes and gain genuine knowledge about everyday women.  

As a side thought, it might be a fun and interesting exercise to write as women of different personalities.  That way you can really get a feel for the "feminine pen" without falling into a pit of stereotype.  A tomboy may be a good first choice because she is a masculine woman.  This would allow you to make certain changes to your writing without stepping too far outside of your comfort zone.  Even so, their are many different types of tomboys and--ok, yeah.  WRITING IS COMPLICATED.


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## gmehl (Aug 12, 2013)

While there's a lot of interesting points of view here, thoughtfully presented, I came back to the original question:

How _hard_ is it writing from a girl's _perspective_ if you're a guy?

I suspect a subtle but challenging difference comes from writing _about_ a character of the opposite gender versus writing _as_ a character of the opposite gender.  We might bring our observations and experiences to be successful with _about_ but might often lack cultural imprinting that goes all the way back to infancy (genetics notwithstanding) that could be helpful with _as._  Toss in all the complications that arise from experiences in one gender or the other and the factors become even more murky.

Beyond that, relative sensitivity to the nature of both genders can make it even more difficult.  If I'm a narrow-minded, crusty old chauvinist bigot, writing believably as a teen girl is certainly going to be a challenge; if I am open-minded, observant, young, and genuinely enjoy the companionship of girls as well as boys, it's going to be a bit easier.

_Hard_ is a relative term. Each of us find some things easy, routine and each of us finds other things maddeningly difficult, if not impossible.  

If you can write believably in the head of the opposite gender, feel free; if you struggle with it, it might not be such a good idea.  How to know where you're at?  Write a sketch.  Pick the gender opposite yours, choose an age, style, attitude.  Write daily encounters in that voice.  Perhaps even share it with others, get some feedback on whether you actually pulled it off.  If it works, it works; if not, you've answered the question but expanded your horizons.


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## Greimour (Aug 13, 2013)

I am unsure if I should add this bit of life story in this post, but I thought of this post when it happened, so I will.

Before that, I must point out certain facts about the current British state of things. 
As far as racism goes; it had been my lifes view from experience that Muslims were the most racist people I would ever encounter. The least racist were the white population. (This has relevance)
That had not always been the case, one needs only watch "East is East" to understand how it had once been in Britain. A direct Quote from the film would be:

"It's not my fault I am a Paki!"
to which the man replies: "Yes it bloody is!"

Several years ago however, long after such things were common. The joke was at how the country was becoming Politically Correct. To the point I was once removed from an Arndale Shopping Center (A Mall) for wishing someone Merry Christmas. They informed me I should wish happy holidays so as not to offend the Muslims. To which I offered them verbal abuse and indecent sign language (which included use of my middle finger).
Years later and primarily the past two years, Political correctness became outlandish - to the point where the government expressed a desire to ban dogs as pets. This is because Muslims claimed the animals were against the Qur'an. (They are not. Just an FYI)
Other examples included Muslim children not taking part in school assembly - because in many schools they begin with prayer. Most commonly being the Lord's Prayer:



> Our Father who art in heaven,
> hallowed be thy name.
> Thy kingdom come.
> Thy will be done
> ...



Following the death of Soldier Lee Rigby by result of an Islamic Terrorist attack on British soil (May 22, 2013) the racism exploded in Britain. One group, known as EDL (Englands Defense League) was just one that sprouted up in response. The racism is now at a point that people can witness, take part in or take note of it on a daily basis. There is very little in regard to creed and much in regard to religion... but I feel bad for many who are caught in the crossfire. To be Pakistani and Islamic/Muslim in the UK right now is to instantly be labeled as a terrorist or something else that is viewed equally as bad. The English feel like second class citizens in their own country and feel that Muslim Foreigners are dictating how the country is run.

That information is to prevent any misconclusions toward my racial or religious beliefs. That stating a person as white, black, christian, muslim or various other - has significance.
The event transpired within two days prior to this post.

*What Happened:*

I was stood at a bus stop waiting. The crowd waiting at this particular bus stop was unusually large. A training event of some description had taken part in the building I had just left. Many of those that were waiting had also come from the same building. Very few of us knew other people at the stop, we were all strangers.

It started as I overheard a quiet conversation between a husband and wife. The fact they were Muslim had yet to be a factor except in the fact that their conversation regarded their faith and their child.

*Man*: Just because it is a play on Christian beliefs doesn't mean we should stop her taking part.
_- I kind of felt pride for the man, and found his view entirely refreshing._
*Woman:* Yes we should! It goes against God. (she may have said Allah, I don't quite recall)
*Man:* The Qur'an does not prevent her from taking part. In fact, it says we should learn about other faiths and choose for ourselves. Taking part and still believing shows true faith.
- _the woman disagreed but I couldn't hear what she said, I wondered if it was in her common tongue. I also felt a little guilty for eavesdropping. At this point the man noticed I had taken an interest.
_*Man: *What do you think? (he asked me)

*Me*: I think Allah would smile at you and frown on your wife. (inwardly I felt surprise and shock. The words flew out of my mouth before I gave them thought. I didn't want to offend either of them.)

*Woman:* And what do you know of the Qur'an or Muslim?
*Me: *Quite a lot, as it happens. I have read the Qur'an after all.
_- This is where it got interesting_. _I will list her as WC.Woman (White Catholic Woman)_ _her dialogue will explain._

*WC.Woman:* That doesn't mean her god will frown on her. That's not a nice thing to say. I am Catholic so I don't know much about what the Qur'an says, but if she believes the Qur'an forbids it, then she should stop her daughter taking part in the play.

*Random W Male:*Well, like you said. You don't know anything about it. Would you stop your child taking part in a play about Mohhammed on the grounds you're Catholic?
_The man took a step closer to the Muslim male and myself, whilst the muslim woman turned slightly having the white woman on her right and her husband on the left. As the debate continued from here on, the two groups gained a noticeable visible opposition. - Just imagine the people forming opposing groups as the dialogue continues._

*Random Old Woman: *I would. My children are grown but I would never have let them.
*R.W. Male:* Yeah well, you're a relic stuck in the racist past.
*WC. Woman: *Oi, you can't talk to her like that. And I don't know if I would let my daughter or not. I will cross that bridge when I come to it. But if I think it's inapropriate then I wont let her. 

Now. The point I am going to cut to is this:

The conversation at the bus stop resulted in a very quiet and hostile bus (which I thoroughly enjoyed) but the conversation didn't end there. All women, despite race, religion or nationality sided with the Muslim woman. ALL men sided with the father. The conversation did turn to racism, explaining that it was views like theirs (the womens) that was causing racism against mulsims. The women argued equally well their own points of view and for the remainder of the argument I simply watched. The Mulsim man who had first spoken (father of the daughter in question) only answered questions directed at him, but also stayed out of the argument, watching from the sidelines. He was emotionally attached to the argument though and his constant nods or shakes of the head stated his opinion on each argument. Getting a word in was mostly the hard part: You know what women are like when they get going. (That comment on women is a joke, so don't laugh.)
I think only three people of the fifteen at the bus stop did not get involved. There was even a second couple at the bus stop who had divided opinions. The entire argument became literally men vs women. Or women vs men, depending on your point of view. Trust us all to get on the same bus too... at least for a half mile, when almost all the white people got off. (At the same stop as it was a town center - the bus went to the city center I think and there is many stops to get off for the remaining half bus full)

That is why I thought of this post. Women Solidarity for the win. In all my life I have never seen such a thing... Men of different types and ages in open public dispute about the dumbest thing; against Women of all types and ages. Clearly the real dispute was about the religious implications, but that quickly escalated to a wide range of things from racism, religion in general, what it meant regarding the little girl being in a chirstian play... (I can't tell you what the play was, I never found out. I was burning inside to just ask the man before I got off the bus)... But at the end of the day, the real argument was "Let her be in the play, or not let her in the play." 

Way to go Shakespeare. 

My over ruling thought on the way home was: 'I might need to give it more thought when I write from a womans perspective. There is definitely a psychological difference.' 
I also wondered how the debate got going. The man dragged me into it, the woman randomly butting in shown she had been listening which spurred on the random man. The old woman who had been happily waiting for the bus alone until the flood of people was the most surprising, and quite verbal in the beginning. I doubted it was women Solidarity that banded them together, but how all women of different beliefs, creeds, nationality and upbringing had reached the same conclusion "You shouldn't let the little girl take part because she is muslim" vs Men "That shouldnt have anything to do with it."

How did we separate like that? Had it been purely coincidence? Had my wording and reference to religion opened the mouth of the woman, had it been the old womans religious and out dated point of view that defended the catholic woman? Why did the man who looked a little intimidating with his "I am a hooligan, rebel, villain, general bad guy" look. (The kind you see at football matches beating up the other fans) Why did he side with the asian man? Was it because he approved of the extremely rare opinion that the muslim man had given? Did he actually think a Muslim girl should take part in the play, or did he truly believe it didn't matter? Part of me believed the man wouldn;t like a muslim girl in a christian play, that it would backfire as another insult against the non-muslim community. But I still hoped it was because he thought it shouldn't matter. 

SO, had it been purely coincidence and wording, or are women just that different to men... I don't fully grasp it, and I think perhaps only those who were there could offer insight, because my memory of it is such a whirling mess, I have already forgotten details and I can't even understand what happened. So expressing it in writing here is a fail... but out of interest in it and my after thoughts about mens perspective vs womens... I have shared.


If nothing else, I hope you find the post interesting.


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## LiquidAnubis (Aug 15, 2013)

I've found that people's wants and needs are relatively universal... So writing from a gal's perspective is really only different in that you're viewing the character as being female. In that sense, it's really rather easy. You can give the character "social norms" such as the girl being shy and the guy being super muscled Alpha but when it comes down to it, we're all capable of the same emotions, desires, and actions. So it isn't that challenging. (I don't think).


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