# Help



## Smith (Sep 17, 2016)

*Help - I Hate My Writing*

Sorry, didn't know what else to call this, but I figured it'd be a good click-bait title. Sort of like yelling "Rape!" in a movie theater (or really yelling "Rape!" anywhere in today's Boy Who Cried Wolf society).

I feel like I may be writing for the wrong reason. What I mean, is that I used to write for myself, but now I'm letting the opinions of others get in the way. Like I've lost the battle of balancing critique with what *I* want to do. I'm losing the ability to determine when people are trying to assist me, or when people simply don't like the way I write.

I guess at the end of the day I just wanted to vent my frustrations with this. I feel like I'm at a horrible point where critique isn't helping me. It's just serving to confuse me until nothing about my writing seems good enough, rather than help me determine what I'm doing well and what I'm not doing well.

And it was then that I realized that I'm basing the worth of my writing on what other people have to say about it, which I believe is a mistake.

Maybe it'd be better if I spend more time battling that asshole of an inner-critic that I have, and telling him to shut the fuck up so I can actually write anything to begin with.

To give a better example, let's say you write something. You make a thread called "Chapter X (excerpt from My Story)".

Now, if I were to critique this piece, I wouldn't focus too much on "Who is this character?" or "What are his / her intentions?" because obviously these things would be explained *in time*. That's why a story has more than a chapter to develop. Now, if you just want to point out these questions because you want the writer to know what you're thinking as a reader, that's a great idea! I just think it's important to clarify that you aren't criticizing them for trying to take their time to develop something. Rather, you're asking those questions out of innocent curiosity.

I'd probably be more worried about their spelling and grammar. Sentence structure and variation. Does it hold my attention? Do the characters have good voices? How good are the descriptions? How's the pacing?

---

This leads to another problem. How do you criticize voice?

I mean, at what point do we say "I didn't like it, but it was good writing". Simply because you don't like how a singer *sounds* to YOU doesn't make them a bad singer.

At what point does the critique stop being objective and become subjective?

I don't know, I guess I'm just frustrated. Stuck in a quicksand pit and some people are telling me

"Grab my rope!"

"No, grab mine!"

and I honestly just want to sink and fucking die. Yet maybe it's a rum thing that, in my effort to seal my own fate by staying completely still, I'll end up saving myself.

If you feel the same way, or want to offer advice, feel free to respond.

P.S. 





Smith said:


> On a side-note: I shouldn't have made it seem like the critique I'm getting is responsible for why I (recently) hate my writing. And I shouldn't have made it seem like critique doesn't ever help at all; because it does. I always appreciate the constructive criticism that I am fortunate enough to receive!
> 
> Truth be told, I don't know why I hate my writing. Maybe it's because I'm upset with myself and my poor work ethic. Maybe it's because it hasn't felt like fun for a long time. Maybe I just need to take a break.
> 
> ...


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## Phil Istine (Sep 17, 2016)

Objective vs. subjective?  Apart from breaches of the more rigid SPAG rules, I figure that most critique is subjective and it's always writer's choice whether to implement any advice received.
I do take your point though that multiple critiques in different directions can be confusing.


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## Smith (Sep 17, 2016)

Phil Istine said:


> Objective vs. subjective?  Apart from breaches of the more rigid SPAG rules, I figure that most critique is subjective and it's always writer's choice whether to implement any advice received.
> I do take your point though that multiple critiques in different directions can be confusing.



Yeah, good point. Glad we agree that it's mostly subjective.

On a side-note: I shouldn't have made it seem like the critique I'm getting is responsible for why I (recently) hate my writing. And I shouldn't have made it seem like critique doesn't ever help at all; because it does. I always appreciate the constructive criticism that I am fortunate enough to receive!

Truth be told, I don't know why I hate my writing. Maybe it's because I'm upset with myself and my poor work ethic. Maybe it's because it hasn't felt like fun for a long time. Maybe I just need to take a break.

Oh who knows.

inb4 the flagrant "You aren't a writer" response that I've run across a couple times on this site.


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## Phil Istine (Sep 17, 2016)

Smith said:


> Yeah.
> 
> On a side-note: I shouldn't have made it seem like the critique I'm getting is responsible for why I (recently) hate my writing. And I shouldn't have made it seem like critique doesn't ever help at all; because it does. I always appreciate the constructive criticism that I am fortunate enough to receive!
> 
> ...



If it's any comfort, I'm pretty sure that most writers go through phases of disliking their own work.  For every idea that found its way onto paper (or the screen), I reckon quite a few must have been discarded.  Even the ones that do make it have been edited - some more heavily than others.
I actually regard it as a compliment if someone troubles to crit my work, because it shows, as a minimum, that they believe something is worth salvaging.


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## Smith (Sep 17, 2016)

Phil Istine said:


> If it's any comfort, I'm pretty sure that most writers go through phases of disliking their own work.  For every idea that found its way onto paper (or the screen), I reckon quite a few must have been discarded.  Even the ones that do make it have been edited - some more heavily than others.
> I actually regard it as a compliment if someone troubles to crit my work, because it shows, as a minimum, that they believe something is worth salvaging.



Yes, definitely! It's always flattering to know that people such as yourself care, and bother to read what I write.

I just don't know what to do about the fact that, all day at work I can think about my story. I just recently posted the first 500 or so words of it. I can picture it all, but it just gets lost in translation when I get home and try to write it.

Not that I forget what I want to do. Part of it is I lose motivation. Forty-hour work weeks do that to you.

Another part of it's my inner-critic, as I mentioned. Basically telling me "don't bother starting". I mean it's quite discouraging to have this great idea in your head and then the first time you try to actually write it, it's bad. I've got a type-A personality.

Maybe I'd be more productive if my goal was to make my first draft as comically fucking bad as I possibly can. At least I'd have something to work with; something to make better. Because the only way to make 'nothing' better is to make it 'something'.

It's aggravating, because I'll write for a little bit if I'm lucky, and then I want to start editing and revising. Then I get caught up in that, start rewriting. And before you know it I've hardly made any progress; and the progress I have made, I'm still unsatisfied with.


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## escorial (Sep 17, 2016)

people will chip away at your self confidence in everything you do.....it's up to you how use other peoples words to define your writing..the list is endless of people finding fame and fortune after being told they were pretty mediocre at what they do...and some great writers have been by passed only to be discovered after their death just how good they were...but the bottom line is if you don't think you have what it takes then give up the ghost and find something that rocks your boat..who know's you might be the worlds greatest violinist but life never led you down that path...so keep writing and learning and see what the future holds out for you..good luck


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## midnightpoet (Sep 17, 2016)

I often disagree with judges and critiquers on this site and others.  Other than a few jerks, most have at least tried to be helpful.  Don't let others discourage you, take what you think will help and write on.  The final arbiter (if your goal is to get published) are publishers and agents, and even they are often wrong. :wink:


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## EmmaSohan (Sep 17, 2016)

Why don't you like your writing?


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## Smith (Sep 17, 2016)

EmmaSohan said:


> Why don't you like your writing?



I think it's because I've been sub-consciously allowing its worth to be based on the opinions of others.

It could also be thanks to the fact that I'm such a perfectionist that it takes the fun out of the process itself. Not only that, but it makes it unproductive. I'll sit there and write a little bit, and then suddenly find myself re-reading, and then re-writing ad infinitum because I'll never be satisfied with it.

Another reason is I have ideas in my head that I really believe in (hence why I'm not giving up). I want to create these things. I want to convey them! But I don't know why I can't--or at least think I can't, currently. Based on feedback I receive it always seems to not come out how I imagine, or how I'd want it to. Maybe that's because I'm only posting bits and pieces of it; I don't have enough yet to show to do it justice.

So for a while now I've felt like I've not been making progress. Just spinning my wheels.

Mainly talking about my fiction-prose here.

EDIT: I think I've also let competitions ruin it for me as well. I refuse to actively write something to try and appease whoever the current judges are, which I suppose is a good thing, but my performance is a participation award at best. With the exception of the very first time I entered, where I won third place. So, not sure if my writing has gotten worse since then, or if I just got lucky.


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## Jay Greenstein (Sep 17, 2016)

My instant reaction: it appears that you're trying to learn to write based on the reaction and suggestions of readers who may or may not be successful writers. So there you are, trying to master a profession that people spend four years in college learning by listening to people who haven't been there.

My point isn't that the advice is worthless, it's they you have no way to tell the good advice from the sincerely offered, "This is what I do." So you veer from one direction to another like the ball in a pinball machine. And of course it's frustrating.

As an example, when I was a member of the RWA I entered several of the contests run as fund raisers by the various chapters. The people judging them love writing, and are sincere and dedicated. But invariably, in a contest that has ten criteria (and ten scores to be totaled for your score), I would get top marks in something like dialog from one judge while another would grade me at the bottom.

Sites like this one are to be treasured for many reasons, but they are not meant to teaching machines. So why not go to the pros, first, and see what publishers view as reasonable structure of a scene, and how best to handle viewpoint? As Holly Lysle said, *“*Michaelangelo did not have a college degree, nor did Leonardo da Vinci. Thomas Edison didn't. Neither did Mark Twain (though he was granted honorary degrees in later life.) All of these people were professionals. None of them were experts. Get your education from professionals, and always avoid experts.”

We're all experts. You need some input from the pros. Devour a half dozen books from the fiction writing section of the library, to get the views of publishers, teachers, agents, and writers. It won't make a pro of you, but like chicken soup for a cold, it certainly won't hurt. As always, my suggestion is to seek out the names, Dwight Swain, Jack Bickham, or Debra Dixon on the cover. In my view, those are pure gold.


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## Smith (Sep 17, 2016)

Jay Greenstein said:


> My instant reaction: it appears that you're trying to learn to write based on the reaction and suggestions of readers who may or may not be successful writers. So there you are, trying to master a profession that people spend four years in college learning by listening to people who haven't been there.
> 
> My point isn't that the advice is worthless, it's they you have no way to tell the good advice from the sincerely offered, "This is what I do." So you veer from one direction to another like the ball in a pinball machine. And of course it's frustrating.
> 
> ...



Ah yes, makes sense! So that _is_ sort of where I've been going wrong.

I do a lot of reading, everything from The Rommel Papers to Jon Meacham's "Thomas Jefferson - The Art of Power". Regarding fiction, I read both classic and contemporary novels, such as Anna Karenina, LotR -- I really like Hemingway and plan on buying A Farewell to Arms; as well as stuff like Game of Thrones, The Hunger Games, and the Metro 2033 series.

What advice could you give me as far as trying to get the most out of my reading? After I get through my backlog of books, should I try putting a little more focus on dystopian literature, since that is what my current WIP is? In other words, should I read what I want to write?

We had a writer come to our high-school last year, it was my senior year. He was about 20 if I remember correctly, and he wrote young-adult fiction. Not really my thing, but I took the opportunity and I approached him after the assembly we held for him (it was part of a book tour), I introduced myself and I gave him some poetry and a short story that I had written. He seemed like a nice guy. I had no expectations of hearing from him (I wrote my phone number on the back), and of course I didn't, but I was glad that I even went through with it.

That being said, do you advise I try to meet with some publishers and editors in my area / state? Send them e-mails? Letters? I suppose I could try and get in touch with professional contemporary novelists. I'm just not sure what kind of questions I should ask.

Thanks for your help! I think you've guided me down a new path, and taken me away from the dead-end I was at.


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## Annoying kid (Sep 18, 2016)

There's such a thing as too much criticism. You should stay in your own lane for awhile.


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## Infel (Sep 18, 2016)

I'm going to put forth a bit of dangerous advice: write to make yourself feel good. Write for yourself!

This is dangerous mechanically, because if you're writing for yourself you leave out a lot of important things that outside readers don't understand. If I write about a character doing something, I skip a lot of stuff because I already know that character--and whatever I write, a third person probably wont be able to follow very well.

But it'll make you happy. It'll build you back up. Hell, I sit down and write lovey-dovey emotional crap between my characters all the time when I need a pick me up.

Because when you write for yourself, when you write to make yourself happy and throw caution out the window, you put heart into it; you put soul into it. If you want to spruce it up later for other people to read, mechanics can be added at any time. But soul can't.

Your writing might be 'critiqued' mechanically. Heck, it might even be critiqued on the content. Not everyone is going to like the kind of stuff write. But YOU have to like the kind of stuff you right, and balls to anyone who doesn't agree with you!! If you don't want to read what you write, how could anyone else? But if you're happy with a piece at the end of the day, if you go back to read it when you're feeling down, it can be more important than what any critic has to say.


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## EmmaSohan (Sep 18, 2016)

I think you have to like what you write, or you have no direction.

If people can help you write "better" -- you like your writing more -- that's good. Otherwise? Not so useful. They could be wrong, they could be misunderstanding the situation, you could be misunderstanding them. And if you try to write to please them, you have no direction, see above.

You figured that out.

And people like different genres, and different styles, and when you add that up, if you could appeal to one reader in 10 that would be amazing. So you can't take negatives too seriously.

And writing is hard, you figured that out, and it can be so rewarding, you figured that out.

Wait! You sound depressed and discouraged and angry. And you are trying to write a dystopia? I don't see a problem! Go write!


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## Jay Greenstein (Sep 18, 2016)

> What advice could you give me as far as trying to get the most out of my reading?


While reading is necessary, it won't improve your writing. The problem is that we see the finished, polished product. We need the process. Reading the finished novel can't tell us the intent of a given paragraph, or why the author choose do do one thing as against the other.

What you really need is the first, second, etc. drafts of a successful author's work, so you can see what they trimmed and added. It might also be nice to know the whys of inclusion and exclusion. As part of my articles on writing I deconstructed one of mine to show how much thought goes into the final draft—not as a demonstration of how to do it, but to show how much isn't obvious in the final draft to the reader (Deconstructing Samantha).

As to why tha author didn't reply, try this article. :disillusionment:


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## Smith (Sep 19, 2016)

Annoying kid said:


> There's such a thing as too much criticism. You should stay in your own lane for awhile.



Agreed, I think that's a good idea! 



Infel said:


> I'm going to put forth a bit of dangerous advice: write to make yourself feel good. Write for yourself!
> 
> This is dangerous mechanically, because if you're writing for yourself you leave out a lot of important things that outside readers don't understand. If I write about a character doing something, I skip a lot of stuff because I already know that character--and whatever I write, a third person probably wont be able to follow very well.
> 
> ...



I love a bit of danger. 

You're right that I do just "need to write". Especially for myself; that's something I've lost sight of lately. What I'm going to try to do is have some fun with the first draft, not worry too much about how good it is. Then when I've finished it, that's when I can take a more serious look at it.



EmmaSohan said:


> I think you have to like what you write, or you have no direction.
> 
> If people can help you write "better" -- you like your writing more -- that's good. Otherwise? Not so useful. They could be wrong, they could be misunderstanding the situation, you could be misunderstanding them. And if you try to write to please them, you have no direction, see above.
> 
> ...



You're right. Through my venting, it does seem that I've already figured a few things out. And with the help of you and others here, it seems that I have been put on a new path.

"When I truly was not sure what to do, I could stop, and think about whether it was taking me towards or away from the mountain." - Neil Gaiman

I've felt lost, trying to find my way to _my_ mountain. This was a stop at a tavern, to spend the night and ask for directions. You lot have helped me get back on the road and figure out where I made the wrong turn. Now it's up to me.



Jay Greenstein said:


> While reading is necessary, it won't improve your writing. The problem is that we see the finished, polished product. We need the process. Reading the finished novel can't tell us the intent of a given paragraph, or why the author choose do do one thing as against the other.
> 
> What you really need is the first, second, etc. drafts of a successful author's work, so you can see what they trimmed and added. It might also be nice to know the whys of inclusion and exclusion. As part of my articles on writing I deconstructed one of mine to show how much thought goes into the final draft—not as a demonstration of how to do it, but to show how much isn't obvious in the final draft to the reader (Deconstructing Samantha).
> 
> As to why tha author didn't reply, try this article. :disillusionment:



Yeah, I didn't expect the author to reply, and that article explains exactly why--although, I wasn't trying to put him in an awkward spot, or be a jerk. I just figured that if there was a 1% chance he'd read it, let alone get back to me, I'd take it. Not to mention it was good practice in general.

But what you have shown me is my efforts would be much better spent sending my work to agents... when I'm ready, haha.

I've a ways to go, but at least I know I'm making progress.

Also, I'm ordering a couple Hemingway books on Amazon that actually contain all the endings he scrapped to A Farewell to Arms! I'm quite excited.

I'll also be sure to check out that article of yours! So far I have found your site to be of good help.


Cheers all,

-Kyle


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## Sam (Sep 19, 2016)

Jay Greenstein said:


> While reading is necessary, it won't improve your writing.



It won't help you get better at being able to write, but it will help you improve. 

I tutor high-school students in English and I can immediately tell the difference between a piece of work penned by an ordinary student, and one penned by someone who reads a lot. The difference is often substantial -- and I've even encountered it at degree level. 

One should never underestimate the value of reading.


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## Smith (Sep 19, 2016)

Sam said:


> It won't help you get better at being able to write, but it will help you improve.
> 
> I tutor high-school students in English and I can immediately tell the difference between a piece of work penned by an ordinary student, and one penned by someone who reads a lot. The difference is often substantial -- and I've even encountered it at degree level.
> 
> One should never underestimate the value of reading.



I'm with you on that one!

Like how watching professional soccer games is not only entertaining for me, but it helped me pick up on things that I might otherwise not have. Really improved my game back when I used to play more.

The catch, is that you then have to put those things into practice by hitting the pitch. Or in this case, putting pen to paper.

It's valuable and educational, but only when I find it fun and enjoyable.


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## Cran (Jan 2, 2017)

Whether it's fiction, non-fiction, or poetry or lyrics or a cryptic puzzle dinner menu*, I have only one rule that matters:

*Write what you would pay to read.*


_*Yes, I was approached by the owner of a Barossa Valley restaurant to rewrite their special menu as cryptic crossword clues. It was great fun. And a great dinner._


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## voltigeur (Jan 2, 2017)

> What I mean, is that I used to write for myself, but now I'm letting the opinions of others get in the way.



I'm going to go out on a limb here. Not to be mean but to offer something to sit and ponder. I'm not expert so please consider this just food for thought.

If you are truly writing for yourself then why are you seeking critique at all?

If you want others of approve of your writing, then what is your real motivation?

I ask these 2 questions because your true motivation determines the course you should be taking.

If you are writing to amuse yourself then write and amuse yourself, as long as it's fun, then you’re doing what you should be doing.  You don't need the approval of anyone and there is no reason to seek feedback. 

If you really want to be published and be recognized for your writing, then you have to approach your writing differently. You have to learn good SPAG skills, learn how to elicit emotional buy-in from the reader. Learn how to write characters your readers will love or hate. (Anything but ambivalent)

When I decided to start writing I wrote a few scenes on my WIP and took off for a critique group. It was a good one; college based full of English and Literary students. I got slaughtered. However, those students could tell me exactly why my writing didn't work. I put my WIP on hold for a bit, got 2 books read and made a concerted effort to learn the craft.

I wrote new stuff went to the critique group and got slaughtered again!

Finally, after a couple of years, I was doing a reading at the critique group. The scene was about 2 congressional interns after Reagan's 1980 speech before the VFW. At the point in the scene when they were flirting in the elevator; at the far end of table I heard this guy hiss, "He's gonna get laid!"

The lady across from him shook her finger, "Betcha he's not."

That is when I realized I might just be able to pull this off. A few months later I did a scene where a government official was being very in appropriate with a young character. The Beta reader shuddered and almost threw the scene back at me. She simply wrote "Creepy". 

I looked up at my Mentor who gave me a big smile and thumbs up! 


I still sometimes have those scenes that don't work, but I know I can do it.

If you really deep down want to be published, then commit. 

How to choose beta readers is a separate discussion. There will be times that writing sucks, but if you can get through those? You will have that time someone is moved by what you created, it will be worth all the hard work. 

I hope this helps.


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## Smith (Jan 3, 2017)

voltigeur said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb here. Not to be mean but to offer something to sit and ponder. I'm not expert so please consider this just food for thought.
> 
> If you are truly writing for yourself then why are you seeking critique at all?
> 
> ...



It is a dream of mine to be published. What I meant by "write for myself" is write what I want to write, and get published.

I do want to learn how to do those things; eliciting emotional buy-in, writing great characters!

Unfortunately, there aren't any critique groups where I live. And the couple friends of mine who also dabbled in writing, don't take it as seriously, and thus are of only so much help.

But yeah, I know I'm cut out for this. Hence why I'm still here! No amount of slaughtering by a reader can ever compare to my horrific "love" life, or lack thereof. Maybe that's just been preparing me for this. I can hack it. So nothing to really worry about there.

I appreciate the advice, and I thank you for asking me those questions. Always good to be able to put down in words exactly what my goal is, and my motivation.

Cheers,

-Kyle

P.S. Will reply to the many others who have been kind enough to leave their thoughts and advice. Not feeling too well at the moment, for other reasons.


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## voltigeur (Jan 3, 2017)

OK I edited my post! Whole part of the story got dropped!?!?!?!?!

I guess working and contributing to the forum don't mix. :disturbed:


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## Smith (Jan 4, 2017)

voltigeur said:


> OK I edited my post! Whole part of the story got dropped!?!?!?!?!
> 
> I guess working and contributing to the forum don't mix. :disturbed:



No worries. ^_^

Sounds like it was a very rewarding experience!

And just to clarify, it wasn't the critique itself that was my problem. Can't stress enough that I'm very grateful for all the people who give me feedback.

I was just very frustrated, as it felt like no matter what I did, I wasn't getting any better. Only spinning my wheels. But I believe I am now past that.

-Kyle


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## Tettsuo (Jan 4, 2017)

Smith said:


> No worries. ^_^
> 
> Sounds like it was a very rewarding experience!
> 
> ...


I think it's hard to a writer to critique another writer and not implant themselves into the work being reviewed.  It's also hard for a writer to find their unique voice amidst a virtual avalanche of do's and don'ts that are designed to limit your range of expression.

I think the best thing I did was write my novel first, then look for advice.  From that, I was able to really work on the raw me and reject or accept advice that didn't quite sound like my voice.  With my second, I was able to really utilize all of the info and help I received from the first run, and transform it into a much more coherent piece of work on in the first iteration. I was really able to avoid all of the revision I had to make with the first book.

Now that I'm on my third, I feel a huge amount of confidence in knowing my voice and working on the thing that makes me different, instead of fixing basic grammar errors.  Because the truth is, so long as you're not making mistakes in your grammar, the rest is opinion.  Take what works for you and discard the rest.


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## Kyle R (Jan 5, 2017)

Keep at it!

Pretty much every writer has (or will have) gone through this at some point. Frustration. Doubt. Sometimes even the snapback, where you swing to the opposite end of the spectrum and start wallowing in pity and, eventually, apathy.

"Hell, I'll never be good at this anyway. I might as well just give up now and save myself the trouble. Woe is me, cruel world! I am but a delicate butterfly in a universe of bats and carnivorous birds!" If I had a nickel for every time I felt this way, I'd have enough cash to buy myself a gold-plated penthouse in New York, where I could sprawl comfortably on a bed made of silk and hundred-dollar bills and cry myself to sleep every night.

But giving up isn't the solution. That's cowardly—and you're not a coward, are you? No, you're going see this for what it is: you wanting to improve. You wanting to go somewhere with all of this.

And really, if you want to get anywhere with your writing, there's only one solution: You have to write. And write. And write some more. And when you're done writing that, eat something, maybe take a shower (because by this point, you probably stink like a skunk), and then crack your knuckles and write even more.

Oh, and read, too—especially the kind of stuff you want to write. See what you can learn from it. Find the passages that make you go, "Wow!" Bookmark them. Show them off to your friends while they roll their eyes. Try to replicate them in your own way, if you like. Do _something_ with them, anyway, if for nothing else than to keep yourself excited about fiction.

And then write some more.

Get some feedback from people. Celebrate the compliments. Scowl at the criticism. Consider all of it, but feel free to ignore it, too. What the hell do they know? The bastards!

Shake your fist. Kick a rock. Glare at all those authors on the shelves, while the envy burns a magma-dripping hole in your soul. Then turn that fire into fuel and write some more, damn it!

Keep doing this and you'll get there, one way or another.

Best of luck! :encouragement:


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## Smith (Jan 6, 2017)

Cran said:


> Whether it's fiction, non-fiction, or poetry or lyrics or a cryptic puzzle dinner menu*, I have only one rule that matters:
> 
> *Write what you would pay to read.*
> 
> ...



Haha, that's a good story! And I'm going to not only follow your advice, but re-engineer it as well. I'm going to read what I like to write.

Thanks Cran. ^_^



Tettsuo said:


> I think it's hard to a writer to critique another writer and not implant themselves into the work being reviewed.  It's also hard for a writer to find their unique voice amidst a virtual avalanche of do's and don'ts that are designed to limit your range of expression.
> 
> I think the best thing I did was write my novel first, then look for advice.  From that, I was able to really work on the raw me and reject or accept advice that didn't quite sound like my voice.  With my second, I was able to really utilize all of the info and help I received from the first run, and transform it into a much more coherent piece of work on in the first iteration. I was really able to avoid all of the revision I had to make with the first book.
> 
> Now that I'm on my third, I feel a huge amount of confidence in knowing my voice and working on the thing that makes me different, instead of fixing basic grammar errors.  Because the truth is, so long as you're not making mistakes in your grammar, the rest is opinion.  Take what works for you and discard the rest.



You're right I think. At least, I'll give it a try, and as somebody earlier in the thread said "stay in my own lane". I've spent a lot of time sort of shooting in the dark, and I think it's time to put the ear-plugs in and just go.

Probably the most beneficial thing I could do after that, is actually get this first draft of my novel done. Much easier to review a complete draft, not only for myself but also (hopefully) for a few beta readers. Get better feedback that way, too.

By doing that, I should make some progress towards finding my voice.



Kyle R said:


> Keep at it!
> 
> Pretty much every writer has (or will have) gone through this at some point. Frustration. Doubt. Sometimes even the snapback, where you swing to the opposite end of the spectrum and start wallowing in pity and, eventually, apathy.
> 
> ...



Thank-you Kyle. No, I won't give up! Even when I checked out for a very short while, I still kept thinking about writing. Or I read, like you mentioned. Made painstaking progress on my current projects. Wrote some column / article-esque political pieces on my blog on Minds.

Never gave up, because you're quite right that I am just very frustrated right now. I want to go somewhere with this, and will.

Cheers,

-Kyle


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## clark (Nov 26, 2017)

If Sir Phillip Sidney could shake off the dust of 430+ years and stand at your elbow while you gnashed and gnawed your pen or howled at your keyboard, he would pronounce you the embodiment of his Self as a young man and recite Sonnet 1 of his (tedious but) brilliant sonnet sequence to you, in hopes that it might offer comfort and encouragement.  He's far too dead to recite, so you'll have to read it yourself.  Preferably aloud, in front of a mirror.  The man's cadence is mesmerizing.

Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, 

That she, dear she, might take some pleasure of my pain,— 

Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, 

Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain,— 

I sought fit words to paint the blackest face of woe; 

Studying inventions fine her wits to entertain, 

Oft turning others' leaves, to see if thence would flow 

Some fresh and fruitful showers upon my sunburn'd brain. 

But words came halting forth, wanting invention's stay; 

Invention, Nature's child, fled step-dame Study's blows; 

And others' feet still seem'd but strangers in my way. 

Thus great with child to speak and helpless in my throes, 

Biting my truant pen, beating myself for spite, 

"Fool," said my Muse to me, "look in thy heart, and write."

Your problem, based solely on what you have written about your writing. . .is that you are writing.  The key to Sidney's statement seems, at first glance, to do just that-- just keep on writing.  Just keep on keepin' on, Jethro and yee-haw! y'all gonna break through the other side, an' everything will be fine.

That's not what the sonnet suggests at all.  The sonnet says you need to look in your HEART as a precursor to writing.  You talk about 'spinning your wheels' as though there's something inevitable about that activity.  Something fundamentally okay, sort of part of the process.  It's not okay once you realize you're doing it.  If you realize you're doing it and keep on doing it, you're either a happy masochist or a fucked-up writer.  You're clearly not happy, so let's go with option B.  If you're a fucked-up writer you're probably either writing about the wrong stuff OR you're writing about the right stuff the wrong way.  So, what does your HEART tell you?  You mentioned that you write prose fiction. . .part-time. . .job gets in the way. . .but this is what you want to do. . .write. . .maybe you're in the wrong genre. . .maybe you should be writing poetry. . .plays. . . travel writing(don't laugh!  We're poking around in your HEART. . .you haven't been here much. . .the windows need cleaning etc.. . .who knows what we'll find?  But given your level of unhappiness with your writing, seems like this is where you need to be.  Basics.  Basics. Basics.  Do you aspire to make a living with your writing?  You must answer that question in your HEART, because the answer slams numerous doors shut, and opens a couple a bit.

The older I get, Smith, the more life's problems reduce to really simple shit.  I don't have the answer to your problem.  Neither does Sir Phillip Sidney or any of our other colleagues here.  Only YOU can find your answer.  I am confident of only one thing.  You aren't asking the right questions.  And there Sidney can nudge you in the right direction.  What really turns your crank about this writing business?  What makes your HEART beat faster?  Go there. Do that.  You'll like your  writing again.


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