# Bullet Proof Medieval Armor.



## Rojack79 (Jul 13, 2019)

Does anyone have an extensive knowledge of black powder firearms and if so can they tell me how bullet proof armor of the 14th century was against them? I have a sparse knowledge of medieval firearms but it's not enough for me to be comfortable when it comes to putting them in my books. I'd like to get a better knowledge of them in general before I use them and would love it someone could help me out in that regard.


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## Winston (Jul 14, 2019)

Medieval armor was designed to protect against blunt force trauma from melee combat.  It offered some projection against volley fire from archers as well.  However, even the crossbowmen that preceded the earliest musketeers could already penetrate armor. 
And crossbow bolts only fly at 300-400 fps.   
I have no doubt that both chain mail and plate armor would slow down a 68 caliber projectile traveling at 900 feet per second.   I can also guarantee that no medieval armor would be "bullet-proof."
Musket balls were soft lead, but medieval armor was only about 3mm thick max.   And even if it didn't penetrate, hundreds of foot-pounds of energy would smash against the plate, knocking the wearer on his ass, probably breaking a few ribs.     
Ironically, Classical-era Phalanx armor would perform better.  Greek armor utilized layers of leather, soft metal and wood that would deform and absorb the energy of a projectile.  
Other factors to consider are length of the barrel (pistol or rifle) and range to target.  A big, heavy pistol ball at fifty yards might just bounce off of a metal chest plate.  Whereas a 40" long musket would not.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 14, 2019)

Armor would slow a black powder ball (the Minnie had not been invented when they still wore armor) but not stop it.
If you were wearing modern steel over chain mail (also made of modern steel) then a black powder round of the era would be stopped, and you'd just walk away with a bad bruise.

But back then, armor was made with old steel...pig-iron, and it simply did not have the hardness. Hell, that was malleable metal, soft by modern Rockwell hardness standards. A rifle could shoot right through the armor. *However, the ball would have lost a lot of energy in the process,* so you are not assured a kill. Often it would just injure them.

Also, in the era where armor overlapped firearms, the matchlock was king. Flintlocks were the next great technological era. And with a matchlock, there is a terrible delay between pulling the trigger and firing. The only people who couldn't get out of the way in time were guys in metal suits.

Lemme know if you have more detailed questions.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 14, 2019)

Oh, and penetration against armor was something that happened at ranges under 100 yards.
Beyond that range, the subsonic ball shed too much energy and would simply leave a big dent.


(but the sights in that era were horrible, so hitting someone further than 25 yards was tough.)


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## Dluuni (Jul 14, 2019)

For awhile, armorers would test plate armor by shooting a musket at it, armor was sold dented. As firearms improved, the armor had to be thicker, until it was too thick to wear.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 14, 2019)

Great. Now i know that some character's will be able to survive gun combat a bit better than other's depending on the gun, the range, and the armor. Also i didn't know that modern day armor was that good compared to way back when. Also good to know. I'm kind of stuck on just what the technological era would be here. This world is our just done differently. It's a literal all myths are true world with The Big Guy Upstairs having created the world and then all of the other pantheons following after various human's, nephalem, and monsters came into existence due to magic becoming real. The tech level for this world is all over the place with trains as the main mode of transportation and Gun's are just now coming into the picture and they aren't the best thing ever however the armor and weapons of the ere are top quality comparable to our own made with today's technology.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 14, 2019)

"armorers would test plate armor by shooting a musket at it"

I have heard this before in internet discussions, but never seen it published by any reliable sources.
I have, however, seen this with respect to crossbows:
https://books.google.com/books?id=E...late armor by shooting a musket at it&f=false

But you are right Rojak; it will not kill them all, so you have plenty of leeway to kill whoever you want, and spare the ones you need.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 14, 2019)

Ralph Rotten said:


> "armorers would test plate armor by shooting a musket at it"
> 
> I have heard this before in internet discussions, but never seen it published by any reliable sources.
> I have, however, seen this with respect to crossbows:
> ...



Now that was an interesting read. If I read it correctly they tested out modern weapons on plate armor and found it protective or did they use guns from that period? Either way that is cool that the armor held up to that kind of abuse and firepower. If that is indeed the truth of the matter either way then i can have some very harrowing action scenes involving the character's, their weapons, armor, skills, and magic.


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## Olly Buckle (Jul 14, 2019)

Don't underrate the bow and arrow. Tests on bows recovered from the Mary Rose suggest a pull of well over a hundred pounds on a long bow, a trained archer could probably fire an arrow up to three hundred and fifty yards. Think an arrow made from hardwood like ash or oak, a clothyard long, and about an inch thick, or a bit more, with a 'needlepoint' tip, basically a large bullet on the end. That is heavy, and it fires in a long trajectory so it gathers momentum as it descends. Most of the French heavy cavalry charging the English archers at Crecy got nowhere near them. Cross bows and firearms were used as much shorter range weapons put between pikemen with long spears so they could retreat behind them when cavalry got too close.

If you really want to know about Medieval warfare the book to read is 'The Art of War in the Middle Ages' by Oman. I read it as a two volume book, but it is old enough and well known enough I bet it is available on line for free. It was a really good read, it covers from the last of the Romans to the early fifteen-hundreds, but amazingly French foreign legion was still using some of the basic Roman tactics in Algeria in the 1960's.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 14, 2019)

Olly Buckle said:


> Don't underrate the bow and arrow. Tests on bows recovered from the Mary Rose suggest a pull of well over a hundred pounds on a long bow, a trained archer could probably fire an arrow up to three hundred and fifty yards. Think an arrow made from hardwood like ash or oak, a clothyard long, and about an inch thick, or a bit more, with a 'needlepoint' tip, basically a large bullet on the end. That is heavy, and it fires in a long trajectory so it gathers momentum as it descends. Most of the French heavy cavalry charging the English archers at Crecy got nowhere near them. Cross bows and firearms were used as much shorter range weapons put between pikemen with long spears so they could retreat behind them when cavalry got too close.
> 
> If you really want to know about Medieval warfare the book to read is 'The Art of War in the Middle Ages' by Oman. I read it as a two volume book, but it is old enough and well known enough I bet it is available on line for free. It was a really good read, it covers from the last of the Romans to the early fifteen-hundreds, but amazingly French foreign legion was still using some of the basic Roman tactics in Algeria in the 1960's.



This all of it is intriguing. I shall see if i can find this online to read.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 15, 2019)

The Chinese used to have this crew-served crossbow that shot 1 pound quills about a half mile or so.
Those would kill a man in armor, regardless of penetration.

Here is one of my absolute favs for a weapons encyclopedia. It is NOT just another book of the same 50 guns.
A third of the book is ancient weapons, and you would be surprised some of the crap humans have invented to kill one another. We are some sick bastages, to be sure.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0312368321/?tag=writingforu06-20


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 15, 2019)

Something geek-cool: In the era when firearms overlapped armor, the Damascus barrel was king.
Investment cast molding was still 300 years away.
A barrel was made by wrapping wire around a rod, then silver soldering it (essentially).
Tho many were incredible works of art, they could only be used with the primitive powder of the era.
Modern smokeless powder would blow them up.
Black powder has a very slow impulse as compared to smokeless powder.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 15, 2019)

And the secret to making black powder was peeing on it.
Really!
When you try to dry-mix the components for gun powder, they often blow up.
So they figured out if you piss on it and mix it wet, no *explody*.
Not only that, but the saline in the urine contributed to the saltpeter.
True fact.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 15, 2019)

Ralph Rotten said:


> The Chinese used to have this crew-served crossbow that shot 1 pound quills about a half mile or so.
> Those would kill a man in armor, regardless of penetration.
> 
> Here is one of my absolute favs for a weapons encyclopedia. It is NOT just another book of the same 50 guns.
> ...



This is one to put on my wish list. I have another book about the history of pistols and that's been helpful but it's not a complete history of guns or other weapons in general.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 15, 2019)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Something geek-cool: In the era when firearms overlapped armor, the Damascus barrel was king.
> Investment cast molding was still 300 years away.
> A barrel was made by wrapping wire around a rod, then silver soldering it (essentially).
> Tho many were incredible works of art, they could only be used with the primitive powder of the era.
> ...



I'll have to look up Damascus and see just how effective it was at being made into weapons and armor.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 15, 2019)

Ralph Rotten said:


> And the secret to making black powder was peeing on it.
> Really!
> When you try to dry-mix the components for gun powder, they often blow up.
> So they figured out if you piss on it and mix it wet, no *explody*.
> ...



Aw yes the power of urine.


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## CyberWar (Jul 16, 2019)

Long story short, it is possible to make _parts_ of Medieval armor bulletproof against typical period firearms, and such armor did indeed exist. The thing is, the only genuinely bulletproof part of these armor suits usually was the cuirass - the plates covering the torso - seeing how torso contains most vital organs and is naturally the likeliest area to be hit by gunfire. Making the whole suit impervious to gunfire, however, was out of question, since that would make it impractically heavy, not to mention prohibitively expensive even for those few who could afford one as it were. For this reason, heavy cavalry gradually did away with full-body armor, eventually retaining only the helmet and the cuirass which could be made considerably thicker (and more bullet-resistant) at the expense of protecting the limbs.

Now, _on average _Medieval armor was no match for musket balls (or crossbow bolts, for that matter) - but it must be taken into account that the quality of Medieval armor suits varied wildly, depending strongly on the means of the individual wearer, who mostly wasn't a very rich person. The existing examples of true bullet-resistant armors were almost invariably owned by very wealthy nobles who were furthermore very committed to soldiering, which would justify the extra expense at a time when armored cavalry was on a rapid decline.

16th century Japan also saw the development of bulletproof armor, the _tameshi gusoku. _Although a fairly late adopter of firearms, the first matchlock guns only being introduced to Japan in the 1540's, Japan also became the single largest producer and user of firearms in the world by 1600, there being more muskets in Japan than in all of Europe combined. The samurai class was consequently forced to adapt in order to remain a viable fighting force in an age of mass-deployed conscripts with firearms. _Tameshi gusoku _was the result, incorporating European-style plate cuirasses into the traditional samurai armor suits. For an armor suit to qualify as _tameshi-gusoku _("firearm-tested"), it had to survive a test shot from a tanegashima musket, often while the armorer was wearing it. The resulting dent was then further inscribed and served as proof-mark of quality. Surviving specimens in museums also show bullet dents sustained in combat, attesting to the armor's effectiveness.

So long story short, yes, bulletproof armor did exist in the Late Middle Ages and Renaissance period, but it wasn't very common, and having one was the period equivalent of owning a Ferrari sports car - a mark of status reserved for the very rich.

---

Where it comes to how armor was tested, I can't point you to a source immediately, but I do recall reading there were local ordinances against false advertising by armorers in several German cities in the early 1500's, which specified that an armorer claiming to make bulletproof armor had to demonstrate it to the customer by wearing it while a test shot was made. Similar regulations existed in 16th century Japan.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 16, 2019)

CyberWar said:


> Long story short, it is possible to make _parts_ of Medieval armor bulletproof against typical period firearms, and such armor did indeed exist. The thing is, the only genuinely bulletproof part of these armor suits usually was the cuirass - the plates covering the torso - seeing how torso contains most vital organs and is naturally the likeliest area to be hit by gunfire. Making the whole suit impervious to gunfire, however, was out of question, since that would make it impractically heavy, not to mention prohibitively expensive even for those few who could afford one as it were. For this reason, heavy cavalry gradually did away with full-body armor, eventually retaining only the helmet and the cuirass which could be made considerably thicker (and more bullet-resistant) at the expense of protecting the limbs.
> 
> Now, _on average _Medieval armor was no match for musket balls (or crossbow bolts, for that matter) - but it must be taken into account that the quality of Medieval armor suits varied wildly, depending strongly on the means of the individual wearer, who mostly wasn't a very rich person. The existing examples of true bullet-resistant armors were almost invariably owned by very wealthy nobles who were furthermore very committed to soldiering, which would justify the extra expense at a time when armored cavalry was on a rapid decline.
> 
> ...



And it just boggles my mind that not a whole lot of guns or bullet proof ( or is resistant more appropriate?) armor show up in modern day fantasy stories. I mean guns have been around for centuries even with a few basic rudimentary designs showing up in the 12th century during the crusades. You can have some awesome set pieces and battle scenes involving various characters with guns, magic, and other weapons.

 Fun fact the first tank was called a battle wagon and it consisted of a literal wagon that had armor plate strapped to its side and cannons sticking out of it. It looks insanely cool! Don't even get me started on grenades and flamethrowers which also existed back then. Did you know that somebody actually bult a medieval grenade launcher!? 

Man a lot of fantasy authors are just missing out due to there heavy reliance on MAGIC! for all of there needs. Need to blow something up? Fireball! Need to fly in the air? Screw the ancient world's fist attempts at flying machines! Just use Levitation! Seriously the real world is chocked full of awesome goodies if you dig deep enough.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 16, 2019)

Damascus barrels were a thing for a couple hundred years. The pic I showed was an artsier version, some of the Damascus barrels were truly artwork.
Dunno if there was such a thing as Damascus steel armor tho.
Damascus barrels were made from wrapping wire around a mandrel and welding it.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 16, 2019)

OMG, I must be getting Alzheimers or something, because the entire time we have been discussing this topic, I have completely forgotten that I've actually done some of these tests you are asking about.

Yep, I have shot some klazy stuff with black powder weapons. Dunno why I forgot about that.

Anyhow, here is one test I ran once. Using a 58 caliber Kodiak double rifle, firing 480grain bullets seated atop 120gr of black powder (or pyrodex substitute) I could shoot halfway through a washing machine. The rounds would penetrate into the tub, but go no further. This was actually on par with a modern 12ga shotgun firing rifled slugs. 

*Question:* But a 58 double would be like...an elephant gun...right?

Actually, back in the day 58 cal was state of the art. Remember Gettysburg? Thems was mostly 58 caliber muskets they shot at each other. Back then the *big* calibers were 60 & 72 calibers. 

I have also shot through 1/16th" plate steel (pig iron) with my 58.
I may still have that plate, I'll check when I get home and post pics if I do.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 16, 2019)

Another fun Black powder fact: Do you know how to determine the proper load for a BP bullet?

Easy: Place the bullet/ball in a lightly cupped hand and pour powder over it until the bullet disappears.
That will be the proper load for that caliber, or damned close.

I know it sounds crazy and reckless, but the technique is surprisingly accurate.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 16, 2019)

Ralph Rotten said:


> OMG, I must be getting Alzheimers or something, because the entire time we have been discussing this topic, I have completely forgotten that I've actually done some of these tests you are asking about.
> 
> Yep, I have shot some klazy stuff with black powder weapons. Dunno why I forgot about that.
> 
> ...



First off awesome! I've got to see what that plate looks like. Second I'm thinking of all the weapons for the MC and what he could use do you have any information on the old double barreled shotguns? And if so then do you know what caliber they would be or what the biggest caliber they can handle is?


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## Rojack79 (Jul 16, 2019)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Another fun Black powder fact: Do you know how to determine the proper load for a BP bullet?
> 
> Easy: Place the bullet/ball in a lightly cupped hand and pour powder over it until the bullet disappears.
> That will be the proper load for that caliber, or damned close.
> ...


 
This will come in handy. The Medieval Western shall be a fun genre to bring to life.


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## CyberWar (Jul 16, 2019)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Damascus barrels were a thing for a couple hundred years. The pic I showed was an artsier version, some of the Damascus barrels were truly artwork.
> Dunno if there was such a thing as Damascus steel armor tho.
> Damascus barrels were made from wrapping wire around a mandrel and welding it.



There are elements of armor made of Damascus, but no full sets of armor, at least mentioned in any sources that I could find. One of the reasons there isn't any Damascus steel armor is because armor requires different material properties than blades. The other is the different character of armor in the Middle East and India where Damascus steel was made - people in the region favoured relatively light chainmail or scale-mail armor over European-style plate armor, Damascus steel simply being impractical for that kind of armor. While there are existing examples of Damascus steel shields and reinforcing armor plates, the benefits gained from using it aren't really sufficient to justify the expense.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 16, 2019)

CyberWar said:


> There are elements of armor made of Damascus, but no full sets of armor, at least mentioned in any sources that I could find. One of the reasons there isn't any Damascus steel armor is because armor requires different material properties than blades. The other is the different character of armor in the Middle East and India where Damascus steel was made - people in the region favoured relatively light chainmail or scale-mail armor over European-style plate armor, Damascus steel simply being impractical for that kind of armor. While there are existing examples of Damascus steel shields and reinforcing armor plates, the benefits gained from using it aren't really sufficient to justify the expense.



So it just looks pretty?


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## CyberWar (Jul 16, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> So it just looks pretty?


Pretty much. The benefits gained by using Damascus simply aren't worth the cost.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 16, 2019)

CyberWar said:


> Pretty much. The benefits gained by using Damascus simply aren't worth the cost.



Then it shall be fun to have a character obsessed with looking good while out on an adventure who's covered in the stuff. However than now makes me wonder about damascus bullets. How expensive would those be and how worth it would they be to make?


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 16, 2019)

Damascus bullets? They just shot round balls made of lead.
The Minnie bullet came much later.

Damascus barrels were prone to blowing up because they were just welded wire.
Pressures had to be kept low.


Out of curiosity, what date is this book set in? I ask because I had completely forgotten about the boxer war until Cyber mentioned it. All along I had been thinking of the European armor era which ended about 150 years before the Boxer revolution. They would have faced dramatically different weapons.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 16, 2019)

I could not find the plate from the BP weapons, so the closest I had was 45-70 smokeless (45-70 was originally a BP cartridge.)

Black powder rounds were bigger, heavier, and slower, so they really don;t penetrate the metal so much as they rip their way through it. 
Compare the 45-70 holes to the other high velocity rounds which actually penetrate the steel.


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## CyberWar (Jul 17, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> Then it shall be fun to have a character obsessed with looking good while out on an adventure who's covered in the stuff. However than now makes me wonder about damascus bullets. How expensive would those be and how worth it would they be to make?



Making bullets out of steel is a thoroughly impractical idea, at least before the advent of modern high-velocity FMJ ammunition. Steel of any kind is lighter than lead, so by using steel musket balls you'd be reducing your already unimpressive effective range (because heavier bullets travel further by inertia), even more unimpressive accuracy (because lighter bullets are more easily affected by wind and aerodynamic drag, especially so for the round musket balls), and further reduce what is an equally unimpressive penetration (because more mass generally means more punch). 

You'd also have to forge each and every one of your steel bullets by hand rather than simply cast a large number of them at once. "Damascus steel" doesn't exactly refer to a type of steel (the proper term being "wootz steel"), but rather the distinct pattern and properties that wootz steel obtains by being forged in a certain way (by using pattern-welding techniques). This means that for your bullets to qualify as "Damascus", they all would have to be forged rather than cast in order to obtain the right properties, greatly complicating the manufacturing process (as opposed to simply casting a large number of lead balls).

 Your steel bullets would be useless with rifled muskets as well. Until the invention of the Minee ball, loading a rifled musket was a lengthy business, since the ball had to fit tightly for the rifling to have any effect. In practice, that translated to having literally to hammer the ball down the barrel. A soft lead ball would deform and interface with the rifling easily enough, but a steel ball would not - it would either not fit in the barrel, or have to be made sub-caliber, rendering the rifling useless (and likely damaging it upon firing) and further losing muzzle velocity as gases would escape around its sides.

In other words, Damascus steel bullets would be completely useless, especially in light of the effort and expense invested in making them.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 17, 2019)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Damascus bullets? They just shot round balls made of lead.
> The Minnie bullet came much later.
> 
> Damascus barrels were prone to blowing up because they were just welded wire.
> ...



It takes place in the 14th century, specificity the year 1346 and on word. So most of the guns are going to be experimental prototypes at best along with the other gunpowder weaponry. I will make some changes to history seeing as there are monsters and magic running amuck in the world and I feel that that would have a huge impact on the world as a whole and the history of it. So it's an alternate history story that roughly follows our own with some tweaks every now and then to compensate for the inclusion of magic, myths and monsters.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 17, 2019)

Ralph Rotten said:


> I could not find the plate from the BP weapons, so the closest I had was 45-70 smokeless (45-70 was originally a BP cartridge.)
> 
> Black powder rounds were bigger, heavier, and slower, so they really don;t penetrate the metal so much as they rip their way through it.
> Compare the 45-70 holes to the other high velocity rounds which actually penetrate the steel.



Wow that's impressive. I'll have to come up with some grade A body armor for that kind of penetration.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 17, 2019)

CyberWar said:


> Making bullets out of steel is a thoroughly impractical idea, at least before the advent of modern high-velocity FMJ ammunition. Steel of any kind is lighter than lead, so by using steel musket balls you'd be reducing your already unimpressive effective range (because heavier bullets travel further by inertia), even more unimpressive accuracy (because lighter bullets are more easily affected by wind and aerodynamic drag, especially so for the round musket balls), and further reduce what is an equally unimpressive penetration (because more mass generally means more punch).
> 
> You'd also have to forge each and every one of your steel bullets by hand rather than simply cast a large number of them at once. "Damascus steel" doesn't exactly refer to a type of steel (the proper term being "wootz steel"), but rather the distinct pattern and properties that wootz steel obtains by being forged in a certain way (by using pattern-welding techniques). This means that for your bullets to qualify as "Damascus", they all would have to be forged rather than cast in order to obtain the right properties, greatly complicating the manufacturing process (as opposed to simply casting a large number of lead balls).
> 
> ...



So not a good idea unless you have udles of cash to burn and time to waste. Got it. It would still be a funny idea to have some rich snob have these just "because" so it's not a total waste in terms of an idea. Got to love the spirit of human greed and vanity.


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## CyberWar (Jul 17, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> So not a good idea unless you have udles of cash to burn and time to waste. Got it. It would still be a funny idea to have some rich snob have these just "because" so it's not a total waste in terms of an idea. Got to love the spirit of human greed and vanity.



Not a good idea, period, I'd say. Steel musket balls don't even offer any advantage whatsoever over lead balls to justify the effort and expense. If you want to have some rich guy show off with custom-made ammunition, might as well cast those bullets from silver or gold then. Golden musket balls could actually be quite effective, seeing how they are denser than lead.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 17, 2019)

CyberWar said:


> Not a good idea, period, I'd say. Steel musket balls don't even offer any advantage whatsoever over lead balls to justify the effort and expense. If you want to have some rich guy show off with custom-made ammunition, might as well cast those bullets from silver or gold then. Golden musket balls could actually be quite effective, seeing how they are denser than lead.



True they'ed be denser but wouldn't the gold deform from the pressure of the black powder and cause damage to the gun or make it to were the gold ball is no where near accurate? As for silver isn't that less dense than lead?


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 17, 2019)

Lead balls are rammed down into pistols. They are oversized so they shave off a ring of lead in the process (but make a gas seal.)

But with rifles, you *patch* the ball. Basically the ball is wrapped in paper of cloth patch, and the patch is what makes the gas seal. The reason for the difference is that black powder fouls the barrel after just a few shots. The more you shoot a BP rifle, the harder it gets to seat the patched bullet, so you have to rod it out frequently.

So theoretically you COULD use steel balls, if you patched them...but I am not sure that they had the technology to actually make round balls of steel in 1346. I'd have to check, but I thought they were still a few years from molten steel in 1346... Anyone?

Here is an awesome video on how to smelt iron and make tools.
This stuff is like prepper porn!

[video=youtube;RuCnZClWwpQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuCnZClWwpQ&amp;t=1867s[/video]


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## Olly Buckle (Jul 17, 2019)

I would doubt it, modern methods punch them out of wire basically, and the sort of high pressure press and high quality steel tool you would need for that, you can make lead shot quite simply by pouring molten lead and catching it in water so the balls don't deform. I don't think anyone ever did that with higher melting point metals. Think of wheels and axels, they didn't use fancy bearings until much later, just used friction bearings with lard and slugs applied.
 '1346 and onward ' is pretty early on too. I don't know where you are basing this, but soon after that was a really bad time in England. Plague turned up and then there were a series of bad years with poor harvests, if the black death didn't get you starvation would and enough people died to really change the society. It is hard to estimate for so long ago when records mostly didn't exist, but the population at the end of that century may only have been half what it was at the beginning.

This is a well interesting thread, but I would say to Rojack, 'Don't get too caught up in the technicalities. Whilst it's good to know, and I am sure it will help inform your writing, this is a story with magic and such in it, you can let your imagination go a little bit in other areas as well.'


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## Rojack79 (Jul 17, 2019)

Olly Buckle said:


> I would doubt it, modern methods punch them out of wire basically, and the sort of high pressure press and high quality steel tool you would need for that, you can make lead shot quite simply by pouring molten lead and catching it in water so the balls don't deform. I don't think anyone ever did that with higher melting point metals. Think of wheels and axels, they didn't use fancy bearings until much later, just used friction bearings with lard and slugs applied.
> '1346 and onward ' is pretty early on too. I don't know where you are basing this, but soon after that was a really bad time in England. Plague turned up and then there were a series of bad years with poor harvests, if the black death didn't get you starvation would and enough people died to really change the society. It is hard to estimate for so long ago when records mostly didn't exist, but the population at the end of that century may only have been half what it was at the beginning.
> 
> This is a well interesting thread, but I would say to Rojack, 'Don't get too caught up in the technicalities. Whilst it's good to know, and I am sure it will help inform your writing, this is a story with magic and such in it, you can let your imagination go a little bit in other areas as well.'



It's funny that you mention the black death because that is actually going to play a huge role in this story. As for magic I'm not going to go to far with it. In actuality I'm going for a more realistic depiction of my magic unless to use it otherwise would help enhance the story in some way. As for getting caught up in the technicality's It's more to do with the technology and seeing just how far i can push the concept of a medieval world developing better technology at a faster than normal pace thanks to it trying to keep up with various monsters and magic.


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## CyberWar (Jul 18, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> True they'ed be denser but wouldn't the gold deform from the pressure of the black powder and cause damage to the gun or make it to were the gold ball is no where near accurate? As for silver isn't that less dense than lead?



Lead and gold have a similar pliability, so I don't think deformation would be much of an issue for gold bullets if it wasn't for lead ones. Ordinary lead balls certainly didn't deform much upon firing, and in rifled firearms, some deformation was even desirable as it helped the bullet to interface with the rifling and form a tight gas seal. The later Minee balls were deliberately designed to facilitate deformation for this reason.

And yes, silver is less dense than lead and hence not a very suitable material for bullets. It's just traditionally considered an effective material for combating supernatural creatures in fiction, which I understand will feature in your story.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 18, 2019)

CyberWar said:


> Lead and gold have a similar pliability, so I don't think deformation would be much of an issue for gold bullets if it wasn't for lead ones. Ordinary lead balls certainly didn't deform much upon firing, and in rifled firearms, some deformation was even desirable as it helped the bullet to interface with the rifling and form a tight gas seal. The later Minee balls were deliberately designed to facilitate deformation for this reason.
> 
> And yes, silver is less dense than lead and hence not a very suitable material for bullets. It's just traditionally considered an effective material for combating supernatural creatures in fiction, which I understand will feature in your story.



True silver is normally used but I plan on breaking the mold with the weakness department. Fire seems to be a universal monster killer so that's on the list. Silver I'm a bit iffy on because in my research I haven't really come across a valid reason for silver being used as a monster killer other than some superstition from the middle ages. Which I can see this being me just nitpicking but most other forms of monster deterrent or slaying capability have some basis in reality case in point fire or holy water for demons and undead. 

Now the only basis i could find on silver being used was that it's associated with Jesus which is great but I mean there is no biblical basis for this which is why i'm somewhat hesitant to use it. I guess I just need to make up a list of known monster weaknesses and make some compromises on the realism aspect. I wanted to make more grounded fantasy story but hey its called fantasy for a reason.


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## epimetheus (Jul 19, 2019)

Came across this video and thought it might be helpful here.

[video=youtube;qO0fsRyN_-Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0fsRyN_-Y[/video]


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## Rojack79 (Jul 19, 2019)

epimetheus said:


> Came across this video and thought it might be helpful here.
> 
> [video=youtube;qO0fsRyN_-Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0fsRyN_-Y[/video]



This IS AWESOME!!!


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 20, 2019)

I stand corrected on previous comments regarding proofing armor.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 20, 2019)

Ralph Rotten said:


> I stand corrected on previous comments regarding proofing armor.



How so?


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## Olly Buckle (Jul 20, 2019)

It is a bit later, but let's face it this is a work of fiction, not historical accuracy. Parliamentarian cavalry in the civil war wore a 'buff coat'. It was a coat made of boiled leather and the lining was stuffed with feathers, not down, proper flight feathers, and it provided protection from a hit with a musket ball. Ever tried shooting a wood pigeon with an air gun? If you don't hit it in the head the slug just bounces off the folded wing and it flies off, the quills really are tough. Of course the leather would get ripped under heavy fire, and that is supposed to be the origin of the phrase 'See the feathers fly' to describe a close melee, though some think it is from cock fighting.


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## Winston (Jul 20, 2019)

/\  Olly is on it again.  It is not often prudent to prevent full penetration, but rather to work twoard absorbtion and dispersion.  
This is why police do not wear metal plate, but rather Kevlar fibers.  
A knight that hoped to be "bullet proof" would be better off with layers of leather and wool or down.  Maybe some thin metal strips.  The idea is to deform the projectile so subsequent layesrs can eventually stop it.  
The added benefit over plate metal is a reduction in weight and increase in speed and flexibility.  Both big pluses in combat.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 20, 2019)

Olly Buckle said:


> It is a bit later, but let's face it this is a work of fiction, not historical accuracy. Parliamentarian cavalry in the civil war wore a 'buff coat'. It was a coat made of boiled leather and the lining was stuffed with feathers, not down, proper flight feathers, and it provided protection from a hit with a musket ball. Ever tried shooting a wood pigeon with an air gun? If you don't hit it in the head the slug just bounces off the folded wing and it flies off, the quills really are tough. Of course the leather would get ripped under heavy fire, and that is supposed to be the origin of the phrase 'See the feathers fly' to describe a close melee, though some think it is from cock fighting.


 
Honestly I care more about historical/realistic depictions of my world more than I do about the imaginative & fantastic elements. Those will be added in when necessary and be used in an organic way to help further the plot. For me I would rather read and enjoy fantasy story that has realistic depictions of it's fantastic characters and creatures rather than one that has fantastic magic all throughout it. And yes magic will be involved but I plan on toning my magic down. It won't be able to stop a bullet with a shield made up of pure energy is what I'm getting at.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 20, 2019)

Winston said:


> /\  Olly is on it again.  It is not often prudent to prevent full penetration, but rather to work twoard absorbtion and dispersion.
> This is why police do not wear metal plate, but rather Kevlar fibers.
> A knight that hoped to be "bullet proof" would be better off with layers of leather and wool or down.  Maybe some thin metal strips.  The idea is to deform the projectile so subsequent layesrs can eventually stop it.
> The added benefit over plate metal is a reduction in weight and increase in speed and flexibility.  Both big pluses in combat.



This is interesting. I'll have to look into this.


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## Winston (Jul 20, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> This is interesting. I'll have to look into this.



As a matter of fact, it was common during the Russian Revolution for people to wear multiple thick wool coats.  It wasn't for warmth.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 20, 2019)

"This is why police do not wear metal plate, but rather Kevlar fibers. "

Actually they wear kevlar, but they have the option of adding trauma plates.
They're ceramic plates in critical areas. They shatter on impact and mute the impact so the vest beneath can handle it.


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## Olly Buckle (Jul 20, 2019)

Winston said:


> As a matter of fact, it was common during the Russian Revolution for people to wear multiple thick wool coats.  It wasn't for warmth.



Mongols did the same sort of thing, a horse hair top coat with a silk coat underneath. The extra advantage was that the silk did not break but was dragged by an arrow, so you could twist it around and use it to pull the arrow out from the tip, Japanese house coats made with a lining of mixed unspun silk and cotton are also supposed to be able to stop a knife blade sometimes. The long threads of unspun silk hold the lining in place between inner and outer layers without quilting.

Sorry Rojack, this is not all that useful to you, but it is fascinating stuff.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 20, 2019)

Olly Buckle said:


> Mongols did the same sort of thing, a horse hair top coat with a silk coat underneath. The extra advantage was that the silk did not break but was dragged by an arrow, so you could twist it around and use it to pull the arrow out from the tip, Japanese house coats made with a lining of mixed unspun silk and cotton are also supposed to be able to stop a knife blade sometimes. The long threads of unspun silk hold the lining in place between inner and outer layers without quilting.
> 
> Sorry Rojack, this is not all that useful to you, but it is fascinating stuff.



Don't be sorry all of this is interesting and it can all come in handy one day.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 21, 2019)

True fact: If you fire a rifle bullet into a Saguaro cactus, the round will get lost inside of the cactus.
But if you fire an arrow at a Saguaro, it will protrude out both sides.
After that the Sheriff comes and arrests you.

The point I am trying to make is that under some conditions, an arrow has better penetration than a modern rifle.
They work better against submerged targets as well.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 21, 2019)

Ralph Rotten said:


> True fact: If you fire a rifle bullet into a Saguaro cactus, the round will get lost inside of the cactus.
> But if you fire an arrow at a Saguaro, it will protrude out both sides.
> After that the Sheriff comes and arrests you.
> 
> ...



I knew that arrows were powerful but not that powerful. Make's me wonder what kind of shield you would need to withstand an arrow volley.


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## Olly Buckle (Jul 22, 2019)

I read a description once of people fleeing Welsh archers who were let into a postern door of a castle. The frustrated archer let fly at the closed door which was made of oak planks three thick, one layer vertical, one diagonal and one horizontal, like super heavy duty three ply. They penetrated the door, sticking several inches out the other side and were left there as a talking point for some time.

You talk about using some 'magical' wood for the bow, but remember in a yew long bow the wood has more than one quality because they cut the bow so that it is half the older centre wood and half the newer outside wood, one is hard and strong, the other has more spring, and it is the combination that makes the bow so powerful.


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## epimetheus (Jul 22, 2019)

Also came across this video. 

[video=youtube;8JCWqsZoNtA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JCWqsZoNtA&amp;t=1351s[/video]


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## Rojack79 (Jul 22, 2019)

epimetheus said:


> Also came across this video.
> 
> [video=youtube;8JCWqsZoNtA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JCWqsZoNtA&amp;t=1351s[/video]



Wow. Lamellar armor is tough. I do wonder how well it would work against ball ammo but still that's impressive that it stood up to all those shots.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 22, 2019)

Olly Buckle said:


> I read a description once of people fleeing Welsh archers who were let into a postern door of a castle. The frustrated archer let fly at the closed door which was made of oak planks three thick, one layer vertical, one diagonal and one horizontal, like super heavy duty three ply. They penetrated the door, sticking several inches out the other side and were left there as a talking point for some time.
> 
> You talk about using some 'magical' wood for the bow, but remember in a yew long bow the wood has more than one quality because they cut the bow so that it is half the older centre wood and half the newer outside wood, one is hard and strong, the other has more spring, and it is the combination that makes the bow so powerful.



True. I do know some bows are made of composite wood pieces but for me I'm just wondering if the fact that the bow is made from Yiggdrasil should have some effect on it's performance. Now that I think about it what kind of tree is Yiggdrasil? I don't have much knowledge of the different types of trees in the world nor how each tree effects the bow in question.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 22, 2019)

Olly Buckle said:


> I read a description once of people fleeing Welsh archers who were let into a postern door of a castle. The frustrated archer let fly at the closed door which was made of oak planks three thick, one layer vertical, one diagonal and one horizontal, like super heavy duty three ply. They penetrated the door, sticking several inches out the other side and were left there as a talking point for some time.
> 
> You talk about using some 'magical' wood for the bow, but remember in a yew long bow the wood has more than one quality because they cut the bow so that it is half the older centre wood and half the newer outside wood, one is hard and strong, the other has more spring, and it is the combination that makes the bow so powerful.



That's true of a yew longbow but doing my research has led me to the fact that Yiggdrasil is an Ash tree which is a good Wood for certain kinds of bows. Now Fenrir is most likely going to use a short hunting bow not a longbow at least for now. Yiggdrasil being the world tree would make the bow special I just need to figure out how it would do this in what I feel to be a logical way.


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## Aldarion (Jul 23, 2019)

Back to original question, plate armour remained bulletproof for as long as it was in use. However, as shots became more powerful, armour got thicker and coverage of less vital areas was abandoned (so you got 3/4 armour for cavalrymen, which was previously only worn by infantry, and then finally just breastplates). In fact, "bulletproof" comes from "bullet of proof" - that is, an armourer would shoot a pistol from point-blank range to prove that his armour could withstand bullets. This mark on armour is referred to as "proof".


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## Rojack79 (Jul 23, 2019)

Very cool.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 23, 2019)

Y'know Rojak, the best way to learn about this stuff is to do it.
Making a bow is something easier than you may think.

Check out this guy's site. He built bows in an apartment...on his patio...and they are works of art.
http://poorfolkbows.com/

Then check out this site where you can buy your own bow blanks, complete with string, scraper, and a bow stretcher.
I have one of these waiting for me to work on it.
https://www.crowshead.com/deluxe-hi...TzfIx7vU9u5TI_O-PAoCG-HiinSp48FBoC1QgQAvD_BwE



Here is another place for bow blanks: https://www.etsy.com/listing/192470...lVF5RHDAB9mkQzqvtzCPvfZ90k5HCB5BoCcj0QAvD_BwE


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## Rojack79 (Jul 25, 2019)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Y'know Rojak, the best way to learn about this stuff is to do it.
> Making a bow is something easier than you may think.
> 
> Check out this guy's site. He built bows in an apartment...on his patio...and they are works of art.
> ...



As much as I love the idea of making my own bow I already have to much in my plate as it is. I can save this for later just in case some time clears up but until then this'll have to be an aspiration.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 26, 2019)

At least check out the site.
It is amazing how the guy builds bows under relatively primitive conditions.
Could be some great character development fodder, as the hero fashions his own bow...
It's the kind of technical stuff that smacks of authenticity if it is well placed in the story.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 26, 2019)

Will do. Socrates will have to use a bow at some point.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 26, 2019)

PoorBoy makes some impressive bows while living in an apartment.
I'm talking beautiful laminated bows, yew, hickory...and sells the things for $$$
Real craftsmanship.


I had to stop practicing in the back yard because my neighbor is a schmuck.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 26, 2019)

Ralph Rotten said:


> I had to stop practicing in the back yard because my neighbor is a schmuck.



That sucks. I don't even think I have the room to do that in my yard. My dog would more than likely eat my work before long.


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## Olly Buckle (Jul 26, 2019)

> I had to stop practicing in the back yard because my neighbor is a schmuck.



Well you know where to aim... No, naughty Olly, but it made me think of the detective story where the victim is shot with a crossbow bolt made of ice so it melts and disappears. It makes a great story, but think about it and the water would still be there when it melted, and it wouldn't work because the bowstring would shatter the bolt. Thing is it works for a story, they just don't mention the drawbacks and nobody thinks too hard about it, it was just a good yarn. You can get away with murder in fiction; not that he did, the hero found him out.


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## Rojack79 (Jul 26, 2019)

Olly Buckle said:


> Well you know where to aim... No, naughty Olly, but it made me think of the detective story where the victim is shot with a crossbow bolt made of ice so it melts and disappears. It makes a great story, but think about it and the water would still be there when it melted, and it wouldn't work because the bowstring would shatter the bolt. Thing is it works for a story, they just don't mention the drawbacks and nobody thinks too hard about it, it was just a good yarn. You can get away with murder in fiction; not that he did, the hero found him out.



Ice bolt, interesting idea. However now i have to look into the strengths and weaknesses of various metals to see which one could withstand the power of Fenrir's bow.


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## Olly Buckle (Jul 26, 2019)

Medieval people didn't have titanium alloys, that is a step too far. But the jolly fletcher has been researching mixing 'magical' metals such as mithril to strengthen the alloy, much as his ancestors mixed soft tin and copper to make hard bronze arrowheads.

I'm having fun with this, I might write this book


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## Rojack79 (Jul 26, 2019)

Olly Buckle said:


> Medieval people didn't have titanium alloys, that is a step too far. But the jolly fletcher has been researching mixing 'magical' metals such as mithril to strengthen the alloy, much as his ancestors mixed soft tin and copper to make hard bronze arrowheads.
> 
> I'm having fun with this, I might write this book



I was thinking of letting other people write stories set in this universe of mine because you know it would be fun to see what others can do with your work. So if you have some great Idea you feel compelled to write then be my guest. All's i ask is that you run it by me first so i can see if it fits in the with the bigger picture.


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