# is 60k too short?



## ScarletM.Sinclaire (Apr 25, 2018)

So I just finished my novel. It is an adult sci-fi fantasy novel and even though I am proud to have finally finished it, I can't help but feel underwhelmed at its word count. When I finished it, it was at 63100 or there about. I am now currently editing it, and its almost at 63600. But I'm still in the beginning of the book so it may grow or shrink past 63k.

Is 63k for my genre okay? I hear people say that its not so much about word count, but it's about the _story_. Is that true? Would publishing agencies still look at my manuscript even if it is at 63k?


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## Char_M (Apr 25, 2018)

ScarletM.Sinclaire said:


> So I just finished my novel. It is an adult sci-fi fantasy novel and even though I am proud to have finally finished it, I can't help but feel underwhelmed at its word count. When I finished it, it was at 63100 or there about. I am now currently editing it, and its almost at 63600. But I'm still in the beginning of the book so it may grow or shrink past 63k.
> 
> Is 63k for my genre okay? I hear people say that its not so much about word count, but it's about the _story_. Is that true? Would publishing agencies still look at my manuscript even if it is at 63k?


A novel is technically 50k + words. It's more important to tell the story. A good, gripping story can overshadow a lot. It's the meat. From my understanding, word count is more a guideline for what category the story would fall under (novel, short story, etc.) 

Celebrate! You just finished your novel! That's more than what most people can boast about, however keep in mind this is where the real work begins - especially if you plan to edit and publish yourself.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## AdrianBraysy (Apr 26, 2018)

I heard that the definition of novella is 20k-40k, so anything over 40k is a novel. Look at the novels from the pulp era. Plenty of them were 40-50k. 60k+ is actually a decent size for a book. As a reader, I actually gravitate to shorter works, because they often tend to have less filler. Also, in today's world with indie publishing (smashwords, amazon, B&N, Kobo...) you can pretty much set your own rules. The old days of "a novel must be 80-90k" are pretty much over.

Examples of novels below 70k:

The Mist by Stephen King (although I think King himself calls it a novella for some reason).

The hound of the Baskervilles  by Doyle

The Doc Savage novels by Lester Dent

The Ocean at the end of the Lane by Gaiman.

And yes, story matters more than length. What is considered a "novel" is also somewhat arbitrary. There were days when 20-30k books were considered "short novels" and then we decided to call them novellas.

But 60k+ is enough to be called a novel by pretty much any standard, and it's certainly not too short. If you want to go the traditional publishing route, I say send it out. If that fails, just indie publish and set a reasonable price.

And congratulations on your book! I think a celebration is in order.


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## Bayview (Apr 26, 2018)

I think you may need to clarify for yourself whether this is a "writing" question or a "publishing" question.

As a writing question - if the story's done at 60K and if you've included everything you wanted in it and have gotten good feedback from betas, etc., then there's nothing wrong with it being at 60K. That's a good length for it.

From a publishing perspective - it's pretty short for the genre. You may have trouble finding a publisher (or trouble finding/satisfying readers if you self-pub). You may want to look at adding sub-plots, or more detail/depth about the world you've built, or another few obstacles on the way to the climax... something. It's not impossible to find a publisher for a book that falls outside of genre expectations, but it's more difficult. If you can avoid the extra challenge, it might be a good idea.


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## K.S. Crooks (Apr 28, 2018)

Check your story to see whether you describe character appearances, their emotions and perceptions and the scenes. Sometime word count reflects not having conveyed the images you see in your head into text that others can read. I often have to remind myself that no one else can see what I see unless I tell them.


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## Jack of all trades (Apr 28, 2018)

ScarletM.Sinclaire said:


> So I just finished my novel. It is an adult sci-fi fantasy novel and even though I am proud to have finally finished it, I can't help but feel underwhelmed at its word count. When I finished it, it was at 63100 or there about. I am now currently editing it, and its almost at 63600. But I'm still in the beginning of the book so it may grow or shrink past 63k.
> 
> Is 63k for my genre okay? I hear people say that its not so much about word count, but it's about the _story_. Is that true? Would publishing agencies still look at my manuscript even if it is at 63k?



Congrats on getting it written!! Take time and enjoy the accomplishment.

Once you're ready, move onto editing. Have it beta read by a few people. Find out what's not clear, or what's confusing. After you've taken care of those things, you might find the word count is larger. Even if it's not, the important thing is if the story is clear and complete. Word count is not really an indicator of quality.


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## Larry952 (Jun 19, 2018)

A 60K book can be a good reading experience if it is well executed.  Many well known novelists have published shorter works.  Make sure your story is complete in every way.   One way of doing this is to engage a good beta reader.  Find someone who knows how to properly critique your work.  Sometimes a freelance editor will have a list of beta readers.  You will probably have to pay something for the service, but it will be worth the relatively small cost.  One such editor is Starr Waddell at Quiethouse Editing.


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## Terry D (Jun 19, 2018)

Here's an article which gives a good explanation of word counts by story type and genre (genre makes a difference). Remember though, this is all just a rule-of-thumb and word counts vary greatly.

https://thewritelife.com/how-many-words-in-a-novel/


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## Hunter56 (Jun 19, 2018)

I've heard that 60k is the usual "average length" for a novel. I'd certainly say that's long enough! The most I've ever been able to write is 50k and I worked pretty hard to get to that point. 60k is the ultimate goal for my next novel. 

I agree 100% that story > length. Seriously, who would want to read a book that's twice as long but twice as crappy? Quality over quantity wins every time imo.


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## bookmasta (Jun 19, 2018)

ScarletM.Sinclaire said:


> So I just finished my novel. It is an adult sci-fi fantasy novel and even though I am proud to have finally finished it, I can't help but feel underwhelmed at its word count. When I finished it, it was at 63100 or there about. I am now currently editing it, and its almost at 63600. But I'm still in the beginning of the book so it may grow or shrink past 63k.
> 
> Is 63k for my genre okay? I hear people say that its not so much about word count, but it's about the _story_. Is that true? Would publishing agencies still look at my manuscript even if it is at 63k?



Pay no attention to word count. Look at the plot, it's beginning, middle and end. If you feel like its progress, story arch and conclusion are adequate, then work as it stands with its word count is okay.


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## Terry D (Jun 19, 2018)

bookmasta said:


> Pay no attention to word count. Look at the plot, it's beginning, middle and end. If you feel like its progress, story arch and conclusion are adequate, then work as it stands with its word count is okay.




That's a nice ideal, and if you are planning to self-publish, one which can be easily followed, but if the goal is to acquire an agent, or submit to publishers word count matters. There are, of course, exceptions, but as a general rule it's best to know the guidlines.


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## Bayview (Jun 19, 2018)

Hunter56 said:


> I've heard that 60k is the usual "average length" for a novel.



I don't think this is accurate even including the shorter genres (like category romance and YA) in the average, and it's definitely not true for SF, which tends to be longer than most fiction.


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## Sam (Jun 19, 2018)

The average length for a novel is 80 - 90k. Most first-time authors (that is, authors new to the publishing industry) come in at around that because of the restrictions and guidelines Terry mentioned above. 

For established authors, on the other hand, the average is more like 120k.


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## Folcro (Jun 19, 2018)

Nowadays, people love potato chips. I personally can't put them down. Why? Because they're bite-sized.

If you're that concerned, don't be; Stephen King's _Gunslinger _was under 70k, and I could talk for hours about that book.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 19, 2018)

A 60k book in 5x8 format would have a very nice cover price.  Easy to sell, almost the price of an ebook.


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## bookmasta (Jun 20, 2018)

Terry D said:


> That's a nice ideal, and if you are planning to self-publish, one which can be easily followed, but if the goal is to acquire an agent, or submit to publishers word count matters. There are, of course, exceptions, but as a general rule it's best to know the guidlines.



While different genres in fiction do have different word counts, when it comes to editing and revision, I still don't see word count as being as primary of a consideration as the quality of the plot. If you have lengthen a manuscript in its word count at the cost of the quality of the story itself, then it is not a worthwhile endeavor. Likewise, just because one manuscript has 100,000 words does not mean it is better than one with 60,000.


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## Bayview (Jun 20, 2018)

bookmasta said:


> While different genres in fiction do have different word counts, when it comes to editing and revision, I still don't see word count as being as primary of a consideration as the quality of the plot. If you have lengthen a manuscript in its word count at the cost of the quality of the story itself, then it is not a worthwhile endeavor. Likewise, just because one manuscript has 100,000 words does not mean it is better than one with 60,000.



None of it is about "quality of the story itself" or being "better". It's about being sell-able.

Publishers are used to marketing their books in fairly standard ways, and a book that doesn't fit their criteria (which, yes, often includes length) is significantly less attractive to them. And if a book is less attractive to publishers, it'll be less attractive to agents.

None of it's a criticism of the book itself. It's just a reality of the publishing business.


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## Jack of all trades (Jun 20, 2018)

bookmasta said:


> While different genres in fiction do have different word counts, when it comes to editing and revision, I still don't see word count as being as primary of a consideration as the quality of the plot. If you have lengthen a manuscript in its word count at the cost of the quality of the story itself, then it is not a worthwhile endeavor. Likewise, just because one manuscript has 100,000 words does not mean it is better than one with 60,000.



I agree. I think it's a mistake to try to bump up the number of words just to meet a guideline number. Quality trumps quantity, in my opinion.


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## Jack of all trades (Jun 20, 2018)

Bayview said:


> None of it is about "quality of the story itself" or being "better". It's about being sell-able.
> 
> *Publishers are used to marketing their books in fairly standard ways, and a book that doesn't fit their criteria (which, yes, often includes length) is significantly less attractive to them.* And if a book is less attractive to publishers, it'll be less attractive to agents.
> 
> None of it's a criticism of the book itself. It's just a reality of the publishing business.



Bolding mine.

I don't pay a lot of attention to book promotions, but I never noticed the number of words or pages being a selling point.

Besides, I still say the next step is getting beta reader feedback. Addressing points of confusion or spots of telling that could use showing can easily increase the word count naturally, making this conversation moot.


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## Terry D (Jun 20, 2018)

bookmasta said:


> While different genres in fiction do have different word counts, when it comes to editing and revision, I still don't see word count as being as primary of a consideration as the quality of the plot. If you have lengthen a manuscript in its word count at the cost of the quality of the story itself, then it is not a worthwhile endeavor. Likewise, just because one manuscript has 100,000 words does not mean it is better than one with 60,000.



The thread is about novel length, not quality, so given books of comparable quality, one with a word count which hits a publisher's sweet spot will have a greater chance of being sold simply for the economic reasons Bayview mentioned. No one has suggested padding word count, or savagely editing out essential parts of a story just to meet a guideline, but those guidelines do exist, and they exist for a reason. It would seem wise to keep them in mind and look for places in your story where there are opportunities to better develop characters, or subplots (in case you are worried about the book being too short), or for unnecessary sidelines, descriptions, and background which could be trimmed if things are running long. Every first draft is rife with possibilities like that.


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## Bayview (Jun 20, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> I don't pay a lot of attention to book promotions, but I never noticed the number of words or pages being a selling point.



Not directly. But indirectly? Readers have expectations; publishers try to match their products to these expectations. Books from a certain imprint or line or series may have common formatting/cover design/packaging, etc. This packaging will be optimized for books within a certain word count. Pricing is difficult to standardize with different lengths.Reviewers have certain expectations of book length.  And the expectations aren't totally arbitrary. SF/F tends to depend on world-building, and world-building takes WORDS. Character development, sufficiently involved plots, etc... they take words.

Most major publishers don't post their MS guidelines because they only take submissions through agents, but DAW accepts submissions directly from authors. They say: The average length of the novels we publish varies, but is almost never fewer than 80,000 words.
-http://www.penguin.com/publishers/daw/



If the book is finished at 60K, it's finished at 60K. But that's a sub-optimal length for getting a publisher, especially in SF/F.


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## glenn84 (Jun 20, 2018)

Word count should be the last thing on your mind. Focus on telling a good story first. Let the words come out naturally. You'll know when it's finished, regardless if it's 40,000 words or 200,000 words.

By the way, people have much shorter attention spans now. Shorter works have a better chance of reaching a much larger audience than a sprawling epic would have. Just my two cents.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 20, 2018)

Glenn is right: Don't worry about word count, worry about making it the best damned thing you have ever written!
60k is still a 260 page paperback, or it can be combined with other works to fill it out to 120k words.

Here is an article that says you are okay:
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/brooke-warner/3-good-reasons-to-keep-yo_b_7607950.html


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## Bayview (Jun 21, 2018)

Is the OP still anywhere near this thread? I feel like we're having two separate conversations, one that's for self-publishing and one that's for working with publishers. It might clear up some disagreement if we knew which goal was being pursued...


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## MikeCobley (Jun 21, 2018)

Personally i wouldn't get too hung up on word count. Good story, good writing is what matters most.

Rgds


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## Bayview (Jun 21, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Glenn is right: Don't worry about word count, worry about making it the best damned thing you have ever written!
> 60k is still a 260 page paperback, or it can be combined with other works to fill it out to 120k words.
> 
> Here is an article that says you are okay:
> https://www.huffingtonpost.com/brooke-warner/3-good-reasons-to-keep-yo_b_7607950.html



That article is written by someone claiming to be a "hybrid" publisher but looking very much like a vanity publisher. Possibly not the best resource if the OP is looking to publish with a reputable company.

Again, in self-publishing, there's more flexibility. And vanity publishers will print anything.

If the OP wants to work with a reputable publishing company, word count is a significant consideration. I haven't vetted all of the following sources, but...

http://www.litrejections.com/word-count/
https://www.fillesvertespublishing.com/blog/2018/04/15/word-counts/
http://www.writersdigest.com/editor...ovels-and-childrens-books-the-definitive-post
http://jetreidliterary.blogspot.com/2016/04/word-count-vconfusing.html
http://bookendslitagency.blogspot.com/2009/07/word-count.html
https://litreactor.com/columns/ask-the-agent-your-novel-word-count-guide-and-more
https://jerichowriters.com/average-novel-wordcount/

That's every relevant result from the first page of google results for "word count agent", and every one agrees that word count is a significant factor. I'm sure the results would be different if the google search was for "word count self-publishing".


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## glenn84 (Jun 21, 2018)

Bayview,

In the last couple years or so I've read books with varying word counts. The Expanse series being one of the longest. I've read Atlantis Gene, Pandemic, A Song of Ice and Fire (up to book 4).

All of these books have one thing in common: They were forgettable. Reason why they were forgettable was because the authors felt it a need to pad extra words just for the heck of it. A little description here, another sublot there, that by the time they were done the real meat of the story was lost.

Now compare these works to something like The Road, Fahrenheit 451, Lord of the flies, Slaughterhouse-five--all books under 60,000 words-- and I think you can start to see what I mean.

Again, that doesn't mean some great books haven't been sprawling epics. It just means you don't want to start adding words to a manuscript just to appease some publisher that has no clue how the creative process works. More and more people are turning to self publishing nowadays. That's not just coincidence.


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## ScarletM.Sinclaire (Jun 21, 2018)

Bayview said:


> Is the OP still anywhere near this thread? I feel like we're having two separate conversations, one that's for self-publishing and one that's for working with publishers. It might clear up some disagreement if we knew which goal was being pursued...




Hi, Bay!

  I'm not sure what I'm going to do in terms of publishing. I would like to self-publish but at the same time, that means I have to do everything myself. Promote myself, market myself, create my own book cover, find and editor myself, etc. It's a lot of money to spend and I'm starting to get my feet wet. I have a professional editor that I'm going to meet with next month to start things off. I would like to discuss editing prices with them before I do anything.

But at the same time, going through an actual publisher has its advantages. They would edit my work, publish it for me, do the cover art, etc, all at no cost to me. So I can save money with that, however I won't get as much sales profits if I go through a publisher. Whereas self-publishing I get to keep the royalties not a percentage of it. 

So I'm still unsure, I'm still weighing out the pros and cons. I just wanted to know people's thoughts on the original question just in case I do decide to go with a publisher.


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## glenn84 (Jun 21, 2018)

Traditional book publishers are dying left and right. If you can self publish, I would definitely recommend going that route instead. I just sent my novel out to an editor myself and he told me self publishing is the future. You will get more return on your investment in the long run. The days of querying hundreds of agents who take three months to get back to you just to send you a generic email telling you "how it's not the right fit for them" are over.


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## Bayview (Jun 21, 2018)

glenn84 said:


> All of these books have one thing in common: They were forgettable. Reason why they were forgettable was because the authors felt it a need to pad extra words just for the heck of it.



What's your source for knowing what the authors felt was needed? Just your own theory, or do you have inside knowledge?



> More and more people are turning to self publishing nowadays. That's not just coincidence.



I agree that it's not coincidence, and if people are happy with self-publishing, I think it's a great option. But for someone who _isn't_ happy with self-publishing, I think it makes sense to pay attention to word count.

Again, none of this is about what's "better" in terms of writing as some sort of art form. It's about what's more likely to be bought and published by a respectable publisher. If the author chooses to self-publish, then she needs to figure out her marketing strategy herself.


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## Bayview (Jun 21, 2018)

glenn84 said:


> Traditional book publishers are dying left and right. If you can self publish, I would definitely recommend going that route instead. I just sent my novel out to an editor myself and he told me self publishing is the future. You will get more return on your investment in the long run. The days of querying hundreds of agents who take three months to get back to you just to send you a generic email telling you "how it's not the right fit for them" are over.



I think you're pretty off topic for this thread - if you start a new thread about the pros and cons of self-publishing, I'd be pleased to take part (I have experience with both self-publishing and working with publishers) but I don't think this is the place.


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## glenn84 (Jun 21, 2018)

Bayview said:


> What's your source for knowing what the authors felt was needed? Just your own theory, or do you have inside knowledge?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As a writer I've become pretty adept at knowing when another writer is writing just to reach a specific number as opposed to just writing the damn story. When a reader puts down a book and scoffs, as i have with a good number of the longer works, you know the author was overwriting to meet a word count limit the publisher imposed on them. Not saying all authors do this, but it's quite possible it may be the case with a large number of them. I think in the end you just have to decide what kind of writer you want to be. The one who follows what other people say. Or the one who takes control of their own creative process and doesn't settle for rule of thumbs and guidelines. For what artist would you truly be if you followed the rules?


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## Terry D (Jun 21, 2018)

ScarletM.Sinclaire said:


> I just wanted to know people's thoughts on the original question just in case I do decide to go with a publisher.



Publishers pay attention to word count. Exceptions to their guidelines exist, but they are just that, exceptions. Be true to your story, but know that publishers run businesses and are profit oriented. They know what works for their business.


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## Bayview (Jun 21, 2018)

glenn84 said:


> As a writer I've become pretty adept at knowing when another writer is writing just to reach a specific number as opposed to just writing the damn story. ...


 This seems pretty un-testable, though. I mean, you _think _you know what the author was thinking, but you haven't tested that at all, right?



> For what artist would you truly be if you followed the rules?



This may come down to different goals for different people. Personally, I have absolutely no interest in being an artist of any sort. I _do_ have an interest in working with publishers who can sell lots of books. So for me, it make sense to pay attention to word count. I don't fluff up my books with extra, unnecessary words; I write with a depth and expansiveness that seems appropriate to the market I want to sell to.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 23, 2018)

Glenn, I don't think their editors are trying to pump up the word count; editors actually do the opposite.
I believe the difference you are seeing is that writing is different. The great writers from past eras (like Asimov) all practiced the fine art of 'economy of words'.  Back in those days the legends all told fascinating stories with in amazingly short stories. Distant sound of Thunder was under 30 pages. I-robot (that became a movie) was a short story.  Running Man was also a short story from King.

The point I'm trying to make is that writing has changed. This is the character driven era, so it is ot enough to just tell a good story, but now you have to have a whole cast of fascinating characters which increases word count and seemingly superfluous chatter.  Also with modern ebooks there is far less concern for word count.  POD publishing also contributed to this wordy phenomenon by  making it cheaper & easier to publish on demand (versus limited runs like in the old days.)

I think that word counts have gone up because writers are no longer disciplined against it.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 23, 2018)

Here is something to put the question into perspective: Here are a pair of 60k books. They are slightly over 200 pages at standard font and format. The spine is 1/2" thick. 
These books are both formatted INTERNALLY for 5x8" cover, but the book on top was actually printed in a 6x9 cover for editing purposes.  

A 60k book is something you could tuck in the back pocket of your jeans as you head out to the beach.  Author copies for a book that size are about $5 or $6 a copy, plus S&H.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 28, 2018)

Bayview said:


> This seems pretty un-testable, though. I mean, you _think _you know what the author was thinking, but you haven't tested that at all, right?
> 
> 
> 
> This may come down to different goals for different people. Personally, I have absolutely no interest in being an artist of any sort. I _do_ have an interest in working with publishers who can sell lots of books. So for me, it make sense to pay attention to word count. I don't fluff up my books with extra, unnecessary words; I write with a depth and expansiveness that seems appropriate to the market I want to sell to.





I don't fluff up my word count; I just take my time telling the story.
Never rush to tell the story.


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## Jack of all trades (Jun 28, 2018)

glenn84 said:


> As a writer I've become pretty adept at knowing when another writer is writing just to reach a specific number as opposed to just writing the damn story. When a reader puts down a book and scoffs, as i have with a good number of the longer works, you know the author was overwriting to meet a word count limit the publisher imposed on them. Not saying all authors do this, but it's quite possible it may be the case with a large number of them. I think in the end you just have to decide what kind of writer you want to be. The one who follows what other people say. Or the one who takes control of their own creative process and doesn't settle for rule of thumbs and guidelines. For what artist would you truly be if you followed the rules?



I agree!

Even if you want to worry about word count, and trying to meet publishers' guidelines, there's a *time* to worry about word count. Before getting beta feedback is the *wrong time*.


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## Bayview (Jun 28, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> I agree!
> 
> Even if you want to worry about word count, and trying to meet publishers' guidelines, there's a *time* to worry about word count. Before getting beta feedback is the *wrong time*.



Nah.

Maybe it's the wrong time for _you_.

I write every book with an approximate word count destination in mind. If I'm aiming for something longer, I allow myself more subplots and other diversions. If I'm aiming for something shorter, I'm more disciplined.

There are also some stories that I would never consider trying to write short - they just have too much going on and I know I'll need some space. Other stories are pretty straightforward and I know from the start they'll be novella-length.

This may be something that comes from experience, so possibly new writers are best to not worry about it. And different writers have different approaches, etc. So there are lots of qualifications and grey areas. But your unqualified statement of apparent fact? Nah.


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## Jack of all trades (Jun 28, 2018)

I will wait until there is a response from staff.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 28, 2018)

Bayview said:


> Nah.
> 
> Maybe it's the wrong time for _you_.
> 
> ...




After 30 books, you should be as accurate as a circus knife-thrower. 


I once ruined a book by removing half of it to keep the word count at a specific word count (because I erroneously thought word count was more important than writing a great story.) The book tanked so bad I had to change my name and move to another state.*
For the genres that I write in I do not care about word count. With Ebooks those requirements are largely moot.
But BV writes for a specific genre where books are expected to fit a certain mold, including size.






*Painfully true fact.


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## Bayview (Jun 28, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> After 30 books, you should be as accurate as a circus knife-thrower.
> 
> 
> I once ruined a book by removing half of it to keep the word count at a specific word count (because I erroneously thought word count was more important than writing a great story.) The book tanked so bad I had to change my name and move to another state.*
> ...



One more area of writing in which there are no black & white answers. So often the only real answer is "it depends".


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## Ralph Rotten (Jun 29, 2018)

What works...works


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## glenn84 (Jun 30, 2018)

Bayview said:


> I think you're pretty off topic for this thread - if you start a new thread about the pros and cons of self-publishing, I'd be pleased to take part (I have experience with both self-publishing and working with publishers) but I don't think this is the place.




Understood. I was simply making the point that words should not be on the writers' mind when they begin their work. If an editor or publisher tells the writer that there are not enough words for the book to sell. Then I would suggest said writer give the finger to that editor and/or publisher, then proceed to publish on his or her terms. No publisher or editor should tell any writer what works and what doesn't. If a writer gives in to these demands, then that, to me, does not make them an artist. At that point they are simply an employee. And I have no respect for them as a fellow writer.


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## Bayview (Jun 30, 2018)

glenn84 said:


> Understood. I was simply making the point that words should not be on the writers' mind when they begin their work. If an editor or publisher tells the writer that there are not enough words for the book to sell. Then I would suggest said writer give the finger to that editor and/or publisher, then proceed to publish on his or her terms. No publisher or editor should tell any writer what works and what doesn't. If a writer gives in to these demands, then that, to me, does not make them an artist. At that point they are simply an employee. And I have no respect for them as a fellow writer.



You can't respect someone who takes a different path than you?

I still have respect for people who treat their writing like art, even though that's not an approach that makes sense for me.


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## Jack of all trades (Jul 1, 2018)

Bayview said:


> Nah.
> 
> Maybe it's the wrong time for _you_.
> 
> ...



I thought it was obvious from the first post that certain restrictions were set : this is a novel and a word count of 60,000 or so words has been reached.


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## Bayview (Jul 1, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> I thought it was obvious from the first post that certain restrictions were set : this is a novel and a word count of 60,000 or so words has been reached.



I don't understand what you're saying.

I mean - yes, in this case, the OP has written 60K words. But your post was about a broader context, surely?

If you just meant that _in this case_, since the OP has already finished the novel, it's too late to worry about how long the novel is... okay, fine. The OP might as well get some beta readers and see what they say.

But you were responding to a different poster, not the OP, and you were responding with "I agree" to someone who's clearly talking about other works and writing in general, so I'm not going to feel too bad about having apparently misunderstood what you were trying to say.


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## Jack of all trades (Jul 1, 2018)

Bayview said:


> I don't understand what you're saying.
> 
> I mean - yes, in this case, the OP has written 60K words. But your post was about a broader context, surely?
> 
> ...




I think it's very obvious, and goes without saying, that the target of a piece of flash, a short or a novel has been in the mind of the author from the beginning. I think it's equally obvious that if one can't turn a story into a full fledged novel, one wouldn't be worrying about publisher guidelines of word count. I also think it's obvious that an attempt to write a 1500 word short that ends up 10,000 isn't going to be a short. 

I never, repeat NEVER, said it was too late to worry about word count. 

I don't care if you feel bad or not.

I do think my general advice stands firm. Write the piece; get feedback; then worry about word count.


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## Bayview (Jul 1, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> I think it's very obvious, and goes without saying, that the target of a piece of flash, a short or a novel has been in the mind of the author from the beginning. I think it's equally obvious that if one can't turn a story into a full fledged novel, one wouldn't be worrying about publisher guidelines of word count. I also think it's obvious that an attempt to write a 1500 word short that ends up 10,000 isn't going to be a short.
> 
> I never, repeat NEVER, said it was too late to worry about word count.
> 
> ...



And I still disagree with your advice, for reasons I've already stated. I believe we're at an impasse.


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## Jack of all trades (Jul 1, 2018)

Bayview said:


> And I still disagree with your advice, for reasons I've already stated. I believe we're at an impasse.



Which reasons? The ones based on your erroneous assumption?


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## Bayview (Jul 1, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> Which reasons? The ones based on your erroneous assumption?



What? Which erroneous assumptions?

Are... is it because I used the word "novella" in one post?

Allow me to clarify: I almost always write novels. I almost always have a goal word-count in mind before I start writing, and I almost always end up within about 5K words of that goal. Some lines I write for want short novels, around 60K. If I'm writing for that line, I know it before I start writing and I write within a couple thousand words of 60K. _Because I choose ideas, before I start writing, that will be well-served in a novel of about 60K words_.

If I'm writing for other lines, I shoot for about 80K words because I know novels of that length have sold well for me before, _so I choose ideas that have a bit more depth and room for exploration than I would if I were shooting for a shorter length_.

Sometimes I have an idea that I know _before I start writing_ is going to take a lot of words to do justice. If there's complicated world-building or a relationship that's going to take a lot of space to develop or whatever else. So then _before I start writing_ I figure out approximately how many words I'm going to need and decide whether I should try to cram all those words into a single long novel or split things up into a series or otherwise make my work manageable and marketable.

That's how _I_ write. Others may write differently. I acknowledge that I have a lot of experience with writing novels and that helps me recognize the challenges before I start writing and a newer writer might need to experiment more. So if your approach works for you, that's great, but stating it as an absolute? Nah.


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## Jack of all trades (Jul 1, 2018)

Bayview said:


> What? Which erroneous assumptions?
> 
> Are... is it because I used the word "novella" in one post?
> 
> ...




The erroneous assumption that I think folks sit down to write without any kind of objective in mind.

As I said, it's obvious that authors have objectives in mind when starting to write. That has no bearing on when is the best time to worry about a *specific* word count. The ballpark has been reached.


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## Bayview (Jul 1, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> The erroneous assumption that I think folks sit down to write without any kind of objective in mind.
> 
> As I said, it's obvious that authors have objectives in mind when starting to write. That has no bearing on when is the best time to worry about a *specific* word count. The ballpark has been reached.



I have no idea what you're arguing at this point, and I'm getting tired of trying to figure it out. So... I'm out.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 1, 2018)

With eBooks, word count is largely moot.


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## APM1211 (Jul 3, 2018)

I had the same worry when I finished my novel. I don’t want to water down the pace just for word count sake so I left it short and sweet!


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## Bayview (Jul 3, 2018)

APM1211 said:


> I had the same worry when I finished my novel. I don’t want to water down the pace just for word count sake so I left it short and sweet!



Are you having success with it?


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## Jack of all trades (Jul 3, 2018)

APM1211 said:


> I had the same worry when I finished my novel. I don’t want to water down the pace just for word count sake so I left it short and sweet!



Welcome to writing forums. You'll find that some of us can be helpful. I agree that pace is important.


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## APM1211 (Jul 3, 2018)

I’ve been turned down by a few agents. I haven’t been aggressively pursuing publishing yet. Trying to figure out if I’m any good yet. If not, I’ll just keep writing as a hobby!


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## bookmasta (Jul 4, 2018)

I'm surprised this thread has gained so much traction. Yes, word count matters to a degree, but I see it just as another statistic regarding a work, such as the number of chapters, characters, ext, rather than an actual feature that has any impact on the quality of the work itself. That is why I stress not to worry so much about word count and to focus more on the actual content of the story.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 4, 2018)

My best selling book is 255,000 words. No agent wanted to touch it because of the size, but readers did not mind the size.

In Indie publishing there are no such limitations. I write the story I want to write.


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## Bayview (Jul 4, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> My best selling book is 255,000 words. No agent wanted to touch it because of the size, but readers did not mind the size.
> 
> In Indie publishing there are no such limitations. I write the story I want to write.



How do you handle pricing with that sort of book? Do you charge three times as much as you would for a "normal" novel, or do you charge a lower amount, accepting that your writing time and editing costs will just have to be absorbed?


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## ScarletM.Sinclaire (Jul 5, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> My best selling book is 255,000 words.



Wow what an accomplishment! Hats off to you for that. What's it called? Is it on Amazon? I want to take a look at this. :icon_colors:


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