# Thank you / Sorry : Are they needed anymore?



## candid petunia (May 26, 2011)

You know how they have this concept these days - _There's no 'thank you' or 'sorry' in friendship_?

It's getting very popular. People have stopped saying 'sorry' and 'thank you' at all. It ticks me off. Whatever happened to values? Politeness? Being sincere?
Ask any author in the leadership/success/self-improvement field and they'll tell you the same thing: Give more of gratitude. Write thank you notes more often. What you give to others comes back to you.

I use these words when they are needed. I say thanks very often. I expect it from others too, and I find it impolite when they don't do so.

So what is your view on this? Should these "golden words" be used in friendship? Or are we so close being friends that they are not required anymore?


P.S: The cartoons these days don't help either. Like how Gru says in Despicable Me:


> The physical appearance of the please does not make any difference.


-.- The kids use it every time. I can only take a joke so far.


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## Baron (May 26, 2011)

Thanks... er... oh, sorry.


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## candid petunia (May 26, 2011)

^ *amused*
I was serious.


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## KangTheMad (May 26, 2011)

I use them all the time. I hold doors open as well.


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## Baron (May 26, 2011)

KangTheMad said:


> I use them all the time. *I hold doors open as well*.


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## KangTheMad (May 26, 2011)

That's just evil.


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## JosephB (May 26, 2011)

candid petunia said:


> Write thank you notes more often. What you give to others comes back to you.



In business, I always let people know that their efforts are appreciated. I know it isn't common, because people often comment when I do. Same with my kids. People make a such a fuss because they say please and thank you. What makes me nauseous is when the parent says, "What do you say, Billy...?" Gag. If the kid doesn't say it on his own -- I don't want to hear it.

Yes, there's a general erosion of manors and common courtesy. I don't think it's necessarily because people are meaner or less considerate. It's just something that needs to be taught -- and parents just don't seem to be stressing the importance of manors these days. My mom was a manors nazi, and it used to annoy me, but now I'm glad she was.


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## Misa Buckley (May 26, 2011)

I get comments from my kids' teachers how how they are the most well behaved and polite children in their classes. It makes me proud  

Of course, like most kids they're only angels _outside _the home - inside I have to remind them to make their beds, wash dishes, etc etc, but at least I know they act nicely elsewhere.


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## Bilston Blue (May 26, 2011)

> What makes me nauseous is when the parent says, "What do you say, Billy...?"


I think this point is quite valid, though only of a child of a certain age. My wife and I are continuously asking our daughter what the magic word is when asking for something, or what she should say when offered or receiving something, but she's two-and-a-half. At what age should it become unnecessary? I'm not sure.



> My mom was a manors nazi, and it used to annoy me, but now I'm glad she was.


I wholeheartedly agree. And because me and my sister had manners, my cousins used to think we were snobs. Hmmph!


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## Olly Buckle (May 26, 2011)

> My mom was a manors nazi,


Better than being a cottage nazi:lol:

It must be true that politeness is unusual, I am polite and get noticed for it 

I say "No thank you" to the Big Issue salesman and after a week he sees me coming and says "Good evening Sir" without attempting to sell me a magazine.
I notice on the train the conductor says "Tickets please" and "Thank you", and quite often I am the only person in the carriage to say "Thank you" back.

Want to stand out from the crowd? Be polite.


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## Rustgold (May 26, 2011)

Saying sorry about anything _(or any form of apology)_ is asking to be kicked to the ground and slammed into the gutter for good measure.  It'll be used against you forever in every single way possible.



> What you give to others comes back to you.


Thank you is only useful when you can get something for it.  Why say thank you unless you're going to get something for it?  Saying thank you in any other situation marks you as weak and a sucker to be exploited.


Sorry, but that's the reality of life today.


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## JosephB (May 26, 2011)

Rustgold said:


> Saying sorry about anything _(or any form of apology)_ is asking to be kicked to the ground and slammed into the gutter for good measure.  It'll be used against you forever in every single way possible.



 Saying sorry means you’ve rethought your behavior or something you’ve said and that you understand how it affected someone or made them feel. If it’s sincere, it can mean a lot. I don’t know how anyone who doesn’t see the value of saying sorry could be in any kind of successful relationship -- unless he or she is perfect and never makes mistakes. And to me, admitting you’re wrong and acknowledging it with a heartfelt apology shows strength – so I don’t see it as an something that can be used against you.



Rustgold said:


> Thank you is only useful when you can get something for it.  Why say thank you unless you're going to get something for it?  Saying thank you in any other situation marks you as weak and a sucker to be exploited.



Uh -- you say thank you _after _you've gotten something -- to show your appreciation. And if you say it, it increases your chances of getting more. (Never mind that it's the decent thing to do.) Pretty simple. How does that lead to being exploited?




Rustgold said:


> Sorry, but that's the reality of life today.



Maybe in your own little world.


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## caelum (May 26, 2011)

Rustgold said:


> Saying sorry about anything _(or any form of apology)_ is asking to be kicked to the ground and slammed into the gutter for good measure.  It'll be used against you forever in every single way possible.
> 
> Thank you is only useful when you can get something for it.  Why say thank you unless you're going to get something for it?  Saying thank you in any other situation marks you as weak and a sucker to be exploited.


I disagree.  I don't think using the words makes one weak, so much as weak people are reluctant to use the words, because they feel like then they can be taken advantage of, whereas secure people don't don't feel like they're putting anything up in the first place.  Rude people are generally insecure in their position.


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## JosephB (May 26, 2011)

Bilston Blue said:


> I think this point is quite valid, though only of a child of a certain age. My wife and I are continuously asking our daughter what the magic word is when asking for something, or what she should say when offered or receiving something, but she's two-and-a-half. At what age should it become unnecessary? I'm not sure.



She's still learning. Mine are eight and six now, but I'm pretty sure that by the time they were four, it was ingrained. Maybe earlier. But I think you're on the right track -- it's never too early to start teaching them.


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## Rustgold (May 26, 2011)

> I don’t know how anyone who doesn’t see the value of saying sorry could be in any kind of successful relationship  -- unless he or she is perfect and never makes mistakes.


Most relationships are not that type of relationship.



> Maybe in your own little world.


Which happens to be with people from the real world.  I'd suggest that those who thinks people will take a honest apology decently haven't been out in the real world enough.



> so I don’t see it as an something that can be used against you.





> I disagree. I don't think using the words makes one weak, so much as weak people are reluctant to use the words, because they feel like then they can be taken advantage of


I can tell you from experience with many people that saying sorry is asking for a kicking.  I know from occasions I've apologised that it will be thrown back in your face & will be used against you a long time into the future.  You will grow tired of apologising for the same one thing and then grow tired of saying that you've already apologised and not going to repeatedly do it.  And we're not talking about major things, we're talking about the most insignificant thing that doesn't have any effect on people's lives.  It's also a signal to all of the hyena's of the world that there's a vulnerable target.

Fact is that people will use a apology against you for an eternity & that's why you'll never see any government saying sorry _(and those that do are quickly booted from office)_.  Saying sorry is giving somebody a weapon to use against you.  

_(I would give you a real life political example from Australia, but we don't need the forums dragged down with rubbish)_


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## Writ-with-Hand (May 26, 2011)

Rustgold said:


> Saying sorry about anything _(or any form of apology)_ is asking to be kicked to the ground and slammed into the gutter for good measure.  It'll be used against you forever in every single way possible.
> 
> 
> Thank you is only useful when you can get something for it.  Why say thank you unless you're going to get something for it?  Saying thank you in any other situation marks you as weak and a sucker to be exploited.
> ...



Actually, and not to glamorize the "streets," nor to be a rebel and agree with you, but I've been told more than once by people of my generation (or younger) that I know from the "hood," never to apologize for anything. They said exactly what you said: it marks you as weak.


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## caelum (May 26, 2011)

I hear what you're saying about apologies, Writ and Rust, but I think there are different kind of apologies here.  People who are falling over themselves apologizing over every little thing do come off as insecure, but I don't think there's anything weak about a sincere apology acknowledging when you were legitimately in the wrong.

Politics is kind of different, and not a sincere game anyway.  I think it was Napoleon who said, "In politics, never make an apology."  I was scratching my head at Obama who was apologizing after the BP oil spill.


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## Writ-with-Hand (May 26, 2011)

caelum said:


> I hear what you're saying about apologies, Writ and Rust, but I think there are different kind of apologies here.  People who are falling over themselves apologizing over every little thing do come off as insecure, but I don't think there's anything weak about a sincere apology acknowledging when you were legitimately in the wrong.



I'm not against apologizing. I do it. Hey, it's worked especially well for me in more civilized atmosphere - like the work place or university campus - and people like yourself can appreciate a sincere apology.

Unfortunately I have to cross and interact with a different kind of people at times.


Ex.

I think it was this last summer when this young boy (18ish or so), a relative of some people I know over here, threatened me as I walked by. He claimed I bumped him. I don't think I did. Nonetheless, I apologized. 

From that time on he kept running his mouth every time I saw him. I told his older cousin to say something to him and put an end to it or me and the young dude were going to end up tussling.

It took - one night - his cousin to rally a bunch of us in the alley under street lights. He wanted to show a bunch of those young boys a thing or two. Three of us in our 30's had boxing experience. I sparred on of the other 30 year olds and with the cat looking on he realized not on his best day with the help of a legion of saints could he whoop me. The cat was "cool" with me from then on. Giving me props etc.


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## caelum (May 26, 2011)

Some people, I get the vibe that they like to test others' boundaries, and if they think they can get a reaction out of them, they'll keep trying.  Some kind of messed up external-validation thing.  Reminds me of the kid you mention, and the net saying, "Don't feed the trolls." :lol:


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## Baron (May 26, 2011)

caelum said:


> I hear what you're saying about apologies, Writ and Rust, but I think there are different kind of apologies here.  People who are falling over themselves apologizing over every little thing do come off as insecure, but I don't think there's anything weak about a sincere apology acknowledging when you were legitimately in the wrong.
> 
> Politics is kind of different, and not a sincere game anyway.  I think it was Napoleon who said, "In politics, never make an apology."  I was scratching my head at Obama who was apologizing after the BP oil spill.


 
That must be the only time America got invaded _by_ oil instead of invading somewhere else for it.


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## caelum (May 26, 2011)

I only hope they don't get word there's oil in Canada.  But then all that would happen is a repeat of the War of 1812, WHAT


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## JosephB (May 26, 2011)

Rustgold said:


> Most relationships are not that type of relationship.



 Actually, I mean all kinds of relationships – with family, children, friends, co-workers -- you name it. I’ve made mistakes in my life, in all kinds of relationships. I'm far from perfect. Even in business, I’ve made mistakes that have caused clients problems or inconvenienced them in some way. When I make mistakes, I own up to them and apologize -- and believe me -- it’s been appreciated. This is just a very simple concept that makes life easier and all relationships stronger. Most people seem to recognize that.




Rustgold said:


> Which happens to be with people from the real world.  I'd suggest that those who thinks people will take a honest apology decently haven't been out in the real world enough.



 I can’t really account for our widely varying opinions on this. I guess we should chalk it up to different life experiences. But I have never once had an apology "thrown back in my face". (I have had some that weren’t accepted -- but that’s not my problem.) 

 So that’s my experience in the “real world.”  Maybe it’s because I know how to apologize, when to do it, and to whom. Maybe that’s why in my world, people have taken my apologies “decently.’” Go figure.


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## TheFuhrer02 (May 26, 2011)

candid petunia said:


> The cartoons these days don't help either. Like how Gru says in Despicable Me:
> 
> 
> > The physical appearance of the please does not make any difference.


 
Yay! Despicable Me! I so love that movie.

And the minions! 

[video=youtube;9FO6eAfZXI4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FO6eAfZXI4[/video]

Back to topic: 

I always value gratitude and forgiveness in friendship. These two values, in my opinion, are key in such relationships. I try my best to show my thanks in friends for what they do and I say sorry if I hurt 'em. It's mutual respect.


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## Writ-with-Hand (May 27, 2011)

*Question: *If your female date (whether you're male or female), for whatever reason, becomes obnoxious inside a lounge, starts and argument with a female friend, acquaintance, or coworker of yours, then throws her (your date) drink in the face of your female friend etc., what do you do if the woman responds back by slapping or hair pulling on your date?

Do you snatch your date away and apologize to the woman or do you defend your date from the assault? What if the one assaulting is a male friend etc., instead?






I was browsing over a site I recently discovered, and good for me because I endeavor to be a well dressed crackhead one day. Not a member I just lurk and browse and came across this thread: Urban Etiquette Survival Tips For The Modern Gentlemen

Number 8 seemed applicable to this thread. I put my friendship/acquaintance/coworker twist on it for this thread. 



> Since there are so many posts on how old fashioned Gentleman should treat Ladies, here is something for the Modern Man:





> 8.       It is ok for a Gentleman to abandon a Lady if she opens her mouth and starts a fight in a bar, nightclub, etc….


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## Dudester (May 27, 2011)

My father was an uncultured type who rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. At his funeral were only 5 of his 8 children and a prostitute. It taught me a lot about the importance of being nice to people. There is a local radio D.J. who appears on at least three radio stations. At the end of each of his broadcasts he says, "Remember, it's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice." Those are words to live by. 

I've incorporated those lessons into my life. I'm not as popular as I would like to believe, but at my funeral, there will be at least fifty people, and not because someone forced them to be there, but because they want to be there (i'm sure one or two of my military "buddies" will be there to make sure I'm really dead), but in life we owe it to other people to treat them as you would want to be treated. 

To that end, when some telemarketer calls, I know they are just trying to pay their bills. Rather than just hanging up, or saying something rude, I politely ask if they will just place me on their do not call list. When it's my turn with an overwhelmed cashier, I try to put them at ease with a smile and asking how they are doing, instead of just plunking my stuff down and acting annoyed. At the market, I often will bring a basket in from the parking lot (and return it), knowing that somewhere I'm chalking up good karma points. 

And that's what it comes down to-those karma points. I honestly don't know if I'm in the plus or minus column. I'm endeavouring to be on the plus side.


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## Eluixa (May 27, 2011)

Those people that are closest to us, friends, family, the one's we tend to trust with the real us, see the worst in us and love us still, and deserve the best and most humble of us too. Please and Thank You are a good start.


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## Rustgold (May 27, 2011)

Eluixa said:


> Those people that are closest to us, friends, family, the one's we tend to trust with the real us, see the worst in us and love us still, and deserve the best and most humble of us too. Please and Thank You are a good start.


 
But isn't it also true that it's how we treat our enemies _(or those we don't like)_ that reveals the most about what we're really like?


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## candid petunia (May 27, 2011)

JosephB said:


> In business, I always let people know that their efforts are appreciated. I know it isn't common, because people often comment when I do.



Was really pleased when you said you do so in business as well  . It isn't common, and that's what I want to stress. _Why_ isn't it common? What do we lose by saying it? We gain a whole lot, though.


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## Rustgold (May 27, 2011)

candid petunia said:


> It isn't common, and that's what I want to stress. _Why_ isn't it common? What do we lose by saying it? *We gain a whole lot, though.*


 
Maybe it depends on where you are.  Different cultures & subcultures have different valuations to things.
I don't know about Saudi Arabia, but several comparisons between Australia & Pakistan

Leaving a wallet unattended in Pakistan is less likely to be pinched.
A taxi driver in Australia is unlikely to try to scam you.
A Pakistani will donate money for a beggar on the street.
An Aussie is more likely to donate time to help someone.
In Pakistan, religion plays a overwhelming role in people helping you.
In Australia, somebody who helps you is more likely to be doing it by their own choice.

Sorry & thank you is indeed becoming less common full stop.  But looking where these words have disappeared the fastest will give some insights as to why it's disappearing.


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## candid petunia (May 27, 2011)

Now I wish I'd have started this topic after my exams, there's so much going on here. 

Maybe it depends on the culture too, can't be sure (by the way, I'm Indian. Living in Saudi Arabia).
I'm sorry, I typed and erased a reply a lot of  times. My mind is not working right now. Will come back later hopefully.


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## candid petunia (May 27, 2011)

Dudester said:


> I'm not as popular as I would like to believe, but at my funeral, there will be at least fifty people, and not because someone forced them to be there, but because they want to be there



All of us may not aim for fame, but each of us would like to be remembered. And you can only do that by being simple and basic, being polite and sincere. I'm sorry to those who don't believe in this, but that's what I believe. I say this again 





> What you give to others comes back to you.


 Because deep down, none of us is bad. We just react to circumstances. There's the same child in each one of us. That's where these basic words come in.


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## BipBopRealGoodNop (May 27, 2011)

I'd say that's just common courtesy


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## Writ-with-Hand (May 27, 2011)

Rustgold said:


> In Pakistan, religion plays a overwhelming role in people helping you.
> In Australia, somebody who helps you is more likely to be doing it by their own choice.



Is that kind of like we in the nations of democracy cast our votes because of democracy, but those reared under absolute monarchy and theocracy, when given the opportunity to vote, do so out of their own choice?

Inherent in religion is choice. I might not be damned to hell for having a wife and 6 concubines or for never apologizing to a friend, but if I so _*choose*_ to follow the directions of Jesus, Christian religion, or the example of certainly saintly Christian people, then I'll restrain myself to monogamy. I think St. Paul relates it to athletics.

Not cheating on your wife - or apologizing to her if you do - is a choice whether you're religious or not.


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## Writ-with-Hand (May 27, 2011)

candid petunia said:


> All of us may not aim for fame, but each of us would like to be remembered. And you can only do that by being simple and basic, being polite and sincere. I'm sorry to those who don't believe in this, but that's what I believe. I say this again.



Jesse James? Al Capone? Billy the Kid? Bonnie and Clyde? John Gatti? 

The followers of Adolf Hitler and those that regard him as a great fallen hero number more than any of the people that will remember us. I just got done looking at an episode of Mob Wives. I don't know about Saudi Arabia, but hands down, it's better in the United States to be Freddi Kruger or a Wall Street cut throat than to be some kind, meek, skinny male that gets sand kicked in his face. Being kind is overrated - especially in Darwinian terms - what's more important is who can cut for the jugular. 



> *Because deep down, none of us is bad. We just react to circumstances.* There's the same child in each one of us. That's where these basic words come in.
> 
> Related topic: Dudester, since we're talking about this, I'd recommend the book _Who Will Cry When You Die_ and _The Greatness Guide_ by _Robin Sharma_ to you. Said that because you spoke of people who'd be at your funeral because they wanted to be there, not because they had to be.  Recommend it anyone else interested as well.


Most on this board - I'm not one of them because I'm indifferent - think Osama Bin Laden was deep down a bad person. He was married to several women including one that became his 15 year old bride. "Deep down" on his side of the world that's okay, especially if he shows "manners," but here in the state of Wisconsin they'd likely have thrown him in jail for grabbing the but of a 15 year old. No apology was going to get him out of that either.


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## candid petunia (May 28, 2011)

^ I'd realised it later but I couldn't come back to change... Should have been _deep down, most of us are not bad_.

*sigh* What went wrong? I'd just asked a simple question.


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