# Popular Athletes and Morality, Can Someone Explain?



## Loveabull (Jun 5, 2015)

I don't follow any sport. Watched a bit of the world cup and know who name players are but otherwise not too much interest. But just curious about opinions from people who do follow sports.             
I was just reading a rather horrifying blurb about boxer Floyd Mayweather and his history of violence against women. The mother's of his children in fact. He went to jail for several incidents. Yet it seems that separate from that he's seen as a successful boxer.
http://www.therichest.com/celebnetworth/athletes/b​oxer/floyd-mayweather-jr-net-worth/

I'm just wondering how his fans can kind of push to the side his personal life. It reminds me of Michael Vick. Of course in his case he got side-tracked by injuries. Yes Karma bites...not to mention a lot of ball players are dog lovers...you just know some of them have it in for him. But him murdering dogs and Mayweather beating women. How do they still have fans at all I dunno...:scratch:


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## musichal (Jun 5, 2015)

Pro sports?  Meh.  Gave up on it years ago.  Rather see more bread, less circus.


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## walker (Jun 5, 2015)

Well, I'll probably get killed for saying this, but I don't see the point in worrying too much about pro athlete's personal lives. Ditto for politicians, movie stars, or my next door neighbor. There was a spam email going around years ago that compared two people, without giving their names. One was a drunk, smoker, womanizer, etc. The other was faithful to a single woman his whole life, notoriously prudish in personal matters, a vegetarian, etc. The first turned out to be Winston Churchill. The second was Hitler.I'm not a fan of MIchael Vick or Floyd Mayweather, and I'm as big of an animal lover as you could hope to find. And as far as their personal lives go, if they've broken the law, then they should pay the price, be it jail time or a fine or whatever. But I'm not going to carry the pitchforks and torches of vigilantism against them forevermore, especially on the Internet. I have faith that whatever penalty is proscribed against them in the law is exactly what they should get. There is nothing in the law about their losing their ability to earn a living once they're out of jail, or being shunned everywhere they go.I feel the same way about Hope Solo that I do about anybody else. If there is some reason to try her under the law, OK, but short of that, leave her alone and let her play soccer.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Jun 6, 2015)

I think there is something about athletes that make people put their blinders on. I remember when I was a cashier at a supermarket, the whole Mike Tyson rape case was the rage. I remember seeing all these women wearing 'Free Mike Tyson' T-shirts. I mean really, it was okay to rape a woman?

And it still goes on. If an athlete behaves badly, expect his fans to turn a blind eye or complain they are picking on him. As long as he hits a lot of home runs, or scores a lot of touchdowns, he is God almighty himself.


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## Kevin (Jun 6, 2015)

First off I'm a fan of the action, the skill, the ability; not the person. I do separate them. As far as the crimes, not being privy to actual cases I can't know for sure what happened. The Vick case he pretty much admitted it. Tyson, I don't know but I heard he was convicted because she left upset and she said so. What actually happened ? I don't know. If he did it, well off to jail then. How a person gets convicted without witnesses other than your accuser and a bellhop who saw her leave upset? My wife could be convicted because I've left upset... point is I don't believe the media without seeing the evidence myself. There was another heavyweight, Ike Ibeabuchi, who I'd have loved to see fight, but he went to prison for rape also. 15 years and he's still in there. No, I don't think they should give him special treatment in either direction. Darrel Strawberry comes to mind. Total injustice and tragedy. Martha Stewart? Injustice. I don't like her, heard she's a cheap... but total injustice. Why? Because they admit they singled her out for example. Special treatment in the harsher direction. Same with O.J. II. Entrapment. Revenge and not justice. Yes, he most likely did the dble murder(I think he did) but the Vegas deal was b.s. Our justice system should be better than that. Everybody loved O.J. and now he's a pariah. So we do turn on our sports heroes. Floyd should be extra careful. If he did it he's an idiot; risking everything. He's so smart in the ring, so smart in his preparation; disciplined, and yet in he's involved in this? head -shaker.


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## dale (Jun 6, 2015)

i just watch the games. i don't care too much about what they do in private life. 
they're athletes, not choir boys.


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## InstituteMan (Jun 6, 2015)

I can't root for the truly reprehensible, or even the mildly reprehensible. I agree about separating the person from the performance, however. I haven't known many music fans to give up listening to bands they find morally objectionable, and I don't see much of a difference between athletes and musicians.

That said, I did make a conscious decision to quit watching the NFL last season, both due to the league's laissez faire approach to domestic violence and because I grew tired of seeing guys carted off with injuries. Baseball/soccer/basketball provide me with enough athletic stimulation these days.


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## dale (Jun 6, 2015)

InstituteMan said:


> I can't root for the truly reprehensible, or even the mildly reprehensible. I agree about separating the person from the performance, however. I haven't known many music fans to give up listening to bands they find morally objectionable, and I don't see much of a difference between athletes and musicians.
> 
> That said, I did make a conscious decision to quit watching the NFL last season, both due to the league's laissez faire approach to domestic violence and because I grew tired of seeing guys carted off with injuries. Baseball/soccer/basketball provide me with enough athletic stimulation these days.



i didn't really care about the domestic violence issues. especially the ray rice incident where she physically attacked him 1st.
the woman is basically a gold-digger and i felt little sympathy for her. the NFL did turn me off a couple times last year, though;
because it seemed like a couple games were really rigged. i don't know if they were or not, but it seemed that way on a couple
of the dallas games, especially.


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## InstituteMan (Jun 6, 2015)

dale said:


> i didn't really care about the domestic violence issues. especially the ray rice incident where she physically attacked him 1st.
> the woman is basically a gold-digger and i felt little sympathy for her. the NFL did turn me off a couple times last year, though;
> because it seemed like a couple games were really rigged. i don't know if they were or not, but it seemed that way on a couple
> of the dallas games, especially.



I really have a lot of problems with the NFL that detract from my viewing pleasure when it comes to watching games.

My biggest issue with the Ray Rice situation was how poorly it was managed by the league. In my mind, I don't think he gets to hit her even if she's a gold digger, and even if she started it he only gets to protect himself--but that's an issue different from how the league responded.

I hear you about the on-field issues, though. A fan of a particular team always feels like his or her team is getting jobbed, but when you look around and see particular teams getting what seem to be undeserved advantages even when you're a neutral observer, that's pretty off-putting.

I discovered that abstaining from the NFL freed up a lot of my time to watch other sports, so that was a win.


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## dale (Jun 6, 2015)

InstituteMan said:


> I really have a lot of problems with the NFL that detract from my viewing pleasure when it comes to watching games.
> 
> My biggest issue with the Ray Rice situation was how poorly it was managed by the league. In my mind, I don't think he gets to hit her even if she's a gold digger, and even if she started it he only gets to protect himself--but that's an issue different from how the league responded.
> 
> ...


oh no. i'm not a dallas fan, nor do i hate them. but it just seemed like the league was not only putting them in the play-offs undeserved..
...(i mean come on....who couldn't tell the colts straight up threw that game)...and then kept them in the play-offs with that
ref-recall of an obviously deserved flag when they played detroit...and it seemed it was rigged simply because dallas comboys
bring in a lot of revenue nationally. i could care less about dallas one way or the other, though.


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## walker (Jun 6, 2015)

Kevin said:


> point is I don't believe the media without seeing the evidence myself.



This.

Look at all the people that the Innocence Project frees. And they only take on the most desperate cases, people who are facing life sentences, or the death penalty. How many more more people are rotting in prison for minor offenses which they didn't commit, and nobody helps them?

Some innocent people are railroaded, granted. But in other cases, I'm willing to bet that the judge, jury, and lawyers tried to reach a fair verdict, but couldn't. To use a sports analogy, they swung and missed. The supposedly brightest minds in society worked months or years researching all the evidence on a case, painstakingly went over all the facts and possibilities, came to a conclusion, and still got it wrong.

Yet you and I are able to assess guilt correctly because we hear rumors, or read online articles, or think we know something about a person going in because of biological/social/cultural factors?

As my wife would say: "Yeah, right."

I know Ray Rice did it because I saw the video. Even so, I think his punishment should be societal (jail, fines, etc.) and not institutional in his workplace. In other cases, the rumors, innuendo, etc. are not enough to draw a conclusion from. That's why there are protections against convicting on that sort of evidence in constitutions around the world.


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## patskywriter (Jun 21, 2015)

Somebody told me that famous musicians were horrible, spoiled brats. Then someone else said that famous actors, artists, politicians, athletes, and talk-show hosts are as well. I suspect that the biggest difference between "them" and "us" is that so many people insist on peering into their private lives. When they find something juicy they gnaw on it until the next scandal comes along. For some people that passes as "entertainment." I personally don't have time for such silliness.  :nonchalance:


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## Bloggsworth (Jun 22, 2015)

Money - Nuff said.


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## Crowley K. Jarvis (Jun 22, 2015)

Unless you follow sports, you don't know who is punching who, who was the ball, or whatever.

Sometimes boxing matches come on at midnight when I change the lobby TV. A passive watcher like me? I don't care who they are.

But the idiotic, almost patriotic, nearly religious way that people feel pride in their sports teams leads them to either follow/care, or ignore it completely. 

I'll watch a game. A fight. Wrestling match. Will I remember the team, the guy, or care about who does what on their off time? No.


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## escorial (Jun 22, 2015)

this thread made me think of John Lennon..a man who inspired peace and love to millions but he in his time was violent against women and his first son said he was a very distant father to him when they had contact...money, fame plays a big part in keeping people close to them but ultimatley i think that people just love them warts and all


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## dale (Jun 22, 2015)

patskywriter said:


> Somebody told me that famous musicians were horrible, spoiled brats. Then someone else said that famous actors, artists, politicians, athletes, and talk-show hosts are as well. I suspect that the biggest difference between "them" and "us" is that so many people insist on peering into their private lives. When they find something juicy they gnaw on it until the next scandal comes along. For some people that passes as "entertainment." I personally don't have time for such silliness.  :nonchalance:



same works with writers. we're all drunken, drug addicted insane sexual deviants according to some critics.


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## Cran (Jun 22, 2015)

dale said:


> same works with writers. we're all drunken, drug addicted insane sexual deviants according to some critics.



"And? Your point is ...?"[SUP]1[/SUP]  

_or_

"This is relevant ... how?"[SUP]2[/SUP]


_1 - Ryan Reynolds and too many others to name.

2 - Captain Carter (Halo Reach)_


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## dale (Jun 22, 2015)

Cran said:


> "And? Your point is ...?"[SUP]1[/SUP]
> 
> _or_
> 
> ...



lol. just the thread title. ya see...i can actually PROVE i'm a drunken, drug-addicted, insane sexual deviant writer. 
but the point is....the majority of writers probably are not. but people like me, hunter, hemingway, capote. etc...
may give writers a bad name...so a lot of people BELIEVE that crap about ALL writers, or the majority of them.
and i think it holds true with athletes, too. when people hear some bad crap from the media about a pro-athlete?
they just automatically ASSUME it's true.


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## Cran (Jun 22, 2015)

So, you're saying that most writers probably aren't drunken, drug-addicted, insane sexual deviant writers? That it only seems that way because the minority of us who are tend to grab all the attention? And this sort of social profiling is a bad thing? Should we start an awareness campaign on behalf of sober, clean, sane, sexually conventional writers? "I'm vanilla and I write too!" sort of thing?


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## dale (Jun 22, 2015)

Cran said:


> So, you're saying that most writers probably aren't drunken, drug-addicted, insane sexual deviant writers? That it only seems that way because the minority of us who are tend to grab all the attention? And this sort of social profiling is a bad thing? Should we start an awareness campaign on behalf of sober, clean, sane, sexually conventional writers? "I'm vanilla and I write too!" sort of thing?



lol. well, depends on your intentions. my reasons for writing are love and revenge. so it works for me to be the insane drunk deviant.
but if your intentions are more philosophical or for money...then the insane drunk deviant thing might not be the way to go. maybe 
a sno-cone would be in order.


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## InstituteMan (Jun 22, 2015)

I am not drug addicted.


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## Kevin (Jun 22, 2015)

> I am not drug addicted.


 you can quit anytime.    (hahaha) 

Football players at the local high school get a pass on their grades, a pass on their drug testing... don't know how money is involved (they're certainly not paying it) but that's the way it is. I would say that's how it starts, the sense of entitlement, the sense that they can do whatever.


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## Loveabull (Jun 22, 2015)

I could admit to being a drunk...although it's a bit early in the evening...but I still think Vick is a bastard as well as men...or women who beat their domestic partner. I would consider that before letting them on a pro team or considering them a gonzo fighter.


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## Riis Marshall (Jun 24, 2015)

Hello Love

I think it comes down to the profound difference between being the best and being the winner. In a perfect, or even ideal, world they should amount to the same thing. Unfortunately in our world, they don't.

I'm glad we've had this little chat.

All the best with your writing.

Warmest regards
Riis


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## Kevin (Jun 24, 2015)

> but I still think Vick is a bastard as well as men...or women who beat their domestic partner. I would consider that before letting them on a pro team or considering them a gonzo fighter.


 -- back in the seventies a college football player attempted to rape a friend of mine. His parents came home unexpectedly, which saved her. It was obvious to her that this was not his first go-around. He was a big-ole white dude, wealthy family in Texas. I'm sure at the time it would have been characterized as 'exuberance' (which it was not) and she would have been pilloried if she had filed charges. Probably the cops would have discouraged her/turned her away considering the football-culture. Part of sports culture is to lie to protect the players.


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## KLJo (Jun 24, 2015)

dale said:


> i didn't really care about the domestic violence issues. especially the ray rice incident where she physically attacked him 1st.
> the woman is basically a gold-digger and i felt little sympathy for her.



Yeeeah, so that is about as wrong as you can be.

First, unless he was pulling in some crazy cash working as a teenager, when they met, the "gold digger" comment is 8 kinds of crap. 

Second, let's pretend the he was the "balling-est" server at the pizza hut...and Janay Palmer couldn't get enough of the minimum wage+tips--and free upgrades to stuffed crust lifestyle...
This justifies knocking her out, how, exactly?

Third, by your logic, you smack me with a fly swatter...I get to retaliate by running you over with a dump truck? 
He is a giant man who was not "defending" himself. His punch was punitive.


Lastly, I'm surprised by all the disappointment with the NFL in this thread. I thought the Ravens dropping him, the changes to the minimum suspension, and the decisive response to the AP situation were all great steps in the right direction...though I wish they'd made the Ray Rice decision sooner, not just to avoid double jeopardy, but also because I drafted him for my fantasy team, and it cost me the league win, I think. :le sigh:


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## Blade (Jun 24, 2015)

Kevin said:


> I would say that's how it starts, the sense of entitlement, the sense that they can do whatever.



A problem with successes and higher ups in general. Being on top eventually seems to mean being above the rules.:sorrow:



Kevin said:


> Part of sports culture is to lie to protect the players.



People tend to see what they want to see and delete the rest. If you wish to look closely and see the problems you are free to do so but you are also given the option of looking away.#-o

I kind of wonder if the NFL deflated ball 'scandal' with Brady was cooked up just to divert attention from the league's real problems.:scratch:


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## Kevin (Jun 24, 2015)

The thing is they start them out as kids. The perks come right away, even if you're not a star. If you are, the girls pick up on it. You're seventeen and being scouted by colleges, even pros. Your coaches are telling you not to worry about your little errors, fixing it so you pass Algebra, get a pass in History, which is fifth period, when you're at practice everyday late. Mr. So-and-so would like to fail you, but the Admins intervene. You _are_ something special. And the chicks? They come at you, so WTH? Got an anger issue? Doesn't matter; everyone will cover for you.


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## dale (Jun 24, 2015)

KLJo said:


> Yeeeah, so that is about as wrong as you can be.
> 
> First, unless he was pulling in some crazy cash working as a teenager, when they met, the "gold digger" comment is 8 kinds of crap.
> 
> ...



hey...this is the age of "feminism" and equal rights for women. women need not be pretending they want chivalry back now. ha ha.


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## Loveabull (Jun 24, 2015)

Now Tyson is still a nutjob but he redeemed himself a bit, lost a young daughter some years back. Good ol' Shaq...as far as I know no charges of rape or mayhem and an amusing TV show to boot.


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## dale (Jun 24, 2015)

Loveabull said:


> Now Tyson is still a nutjob but he redeemed himself a bit, lost a young daughter some years back. Good ol' Shaq...as far as I know no charges of rape or mayhem and an amusing TV show to boot.



i was actually in the same prison tyson was. that's not even a joke. i never seen him except once walking to the lunch line.
i seriously wanted to punch him the eye. not because of his crime. i personally always thought he was innocent of that.
i just wanted to punch him to say i punched mike tyson. no other reason.


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## Phil Istine (Jun 24, 2015)

InstituteMan said:


> I am not drug addicted.



Just say yes.


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## KLJo (Jun 24, 2015)

dale said:


> hey...this is the age of "feminism" and equal rights for women. women need not be pretending they want chivalry back now. ha ha.



Cool, so since men are generally stronger than women, and Ray was clearly the physical strength superior in that conflict...

You agree that it was a horrific inequality, your earlier point is completely wrong, and I am right.

Great!


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## dale (Jun 25, 2015)

KLJo said:


> Cool, so since men are generally stronger than women, and Ray was clearly the physical strength superior in that conflict...
> 
> You agree that it was a horrific inequality, your earlier point is completely wrong, and I am right.
> 
> Great!


no. i'm not wrong. women have equal rights according to "feminism". so that philosophy would certainly extend to a man bashing 
a woman in her head the same way he would a man. equal rights.


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## Sonata (Jun 25, 2015)

dale said:


> no. i'm not wrong. women have equal rights according to "feminism". so that philosophy would certainly extend to a man bashing
> a woman in her head the same way he would a man. equal rights.



If you were a woman and a man bashed you in your head you would call that equal rights?  Let me tell you, there is no equality in being hit in the head by a man who is at least twice as strong as you are.  The fact that he hit the wrong woman - me - by mistake, still does not make that right.


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## KLJo (Jun 25, 2015)

dale said:


> no. i'm not wrong. women have equal rights according to "feminism". so that philosophy would certainly extend to a man bashing
> a woman in her head the same way he would a man. equal rights.



You don't know me yet, but I promise, I have a better understanding of feminism than you do. I will understand completely if you don't wish to take me at my word.

There is a push to define feminism colloquially as, "Equal rights," and to use that over-simplified definition to mean a homogeneous whitewash. This is the fallacy by which you justify your stance on Domestic Violence.

His punching her, and her slapping him are both, "wrong", and I can see why you would take that fact and say they are equal, but that is really a perversion of the intended goal of feminism, a fact I'm fairly certain you already know. As men are born physiologically stronger, on average, it creates an inequality to compare their maximum output to a woman's, not unlike being born with racial differences.

It might be helpful for you to adjust your ideas of, "equal rights" to appreciate that true peers must have the same starting point, and while society does not exist in an idealized vacuum, that includes adjustments for advantages such as the one demonstrated above.


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## Kevin (Jun 25, 2015)

He's messing with you darling, just playing,  but also getting you to question.. 

So if Ray smashed his gay lover, who was not his equal, physically, would you be as outraged, given that we're all equal now, on equal footing? Is there no sexism there? You see that's what males deal with: _Can I kick this dude's ass... and should I be messing? _That is male culture, at least where I'm from. I can't say for sure, but in some cultures/places in the U.S. it is apparently okay to hit either gender, and either gender may initiate. Please, don't answer. Just putting it out there.


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## Ariel (Jun 25, 2015)

I consider myself a feminist but I also fully expect a man to defend himself.  If I haul off and bash somebody I expect him or her to hit me back.  I don't think it's right for _anyone_ to go around hitting _anyone _else.

That said, Dale has a history of saying things to get a reaction.  He's funny if you take him with a grain of salt.  (I also have a sneaking suspicion that he would rip a guy apart for hitting his little girl).


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## Kevin (Jun 25, 2015)

I wouldn't hit you back. I'd run (haha). I might yell at you. Grab your wrists. Probably break up... hypothetically, all of it.


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## KLJo (Jun 25, 2015)

Kevin said:


> Please, don't answer. Just putting it out there.



Only answering because of this, and being called darling, obv.

Trolling is an art form near and dear to my heart, but what Dale was posting wasn't that (imo). It should be funny to the audience, and spittal-laden, rage-inducing for the person to whom it is directed, and self-satisfying to the poster. That met only one of the criteria, and thus I continue to believe that it is bad logic masquerading as trolling.


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## kilroy214 (Jun 25, 2015)

I grew up as a middle child with two sisters, and was taught that no matter what they did, you never ever hit girls. Knowing this, my two sisters thought it gave them carte blanche to pick and bully me as there was no way I could retaliate without sufferring the wrath of my father's belt.
Because of this, I feel like it shouldn't make a difference if you're a man or a woman, if you want to act violent towards another, don't be surpirsed when you meet violence in return.
If you want to grab a tiger by the tail, you had better have a plan to deal with its teeth.


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## Sonata (Jun 25, 2015)

Kevin said:


> ...[snip]...
> So if Ray smashed his gay lover, who was not his equal, physically, would you be as outraged, given that we're all equal now, on equal footing? Is there no sexism there? You see that's what males deal with: _Can I kick this dude's ass... and should I be messing? _That is male culture, at least where I'm from. I can't say for sure, but in some cultures/places in the U.S. it is apparently okay to hit either gender, and either gender may initiate. Please, don't answer. Just putting it out there.



Is it, therefore, okay to put a super-heavyweight boxer in the ring with a mini-flyweight boxer?  Two males, both trying to knock the sh!t out of each other,  but are they on an equal footing?


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## Terry D (Jun 25, 2015)

Let's get this thread back on the topic of athlete entitlement and away from a debate about domestic violence, please.


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## musichal (Jun 25, 2015)

When a senior in high school, we had a noobie try-out for the team who weighed in at a massive 340 lbs.  All fat, he'd never played team sports before, and several of us were nearby as he went to the equipment manager to draw a practice uniform.  The manager, whose back was turned, asked, "What size jock strap?"

Willie looked confused and embarrassed and replied, "Small, I guess."

Of course, he became even more embarrassed when we all burst into laughter.

Oh, wait, you said entitlement... I thought it was endowment.  My bad.


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## KLJo (Jun 25, 2015)

On entitlement: 
I worked as a college English tutor. I will never forget the athlete that submitted an essay written in, "They is"/"We be" format, and received a passing grade. 

The idea that some schools push athletes through academically, regardless of merit, does exist.


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## ThatCrazyGuy (Jun 25, 2015)

It depends on how the poor language is used. For example: I was given a failing grade on a high school book report for quotes I made from the text. Using the author's/character's phasing to cite my literary facts.


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## dale (Jun 25, 2015)

amsawtell said:


> I consider myself a feminist but I also fully expect a man to defend himself.  If I haul off and bash somebody I expect him or her to hit me back.  I don't think it's right for _anyone_ to go around hitting _anyone _else.
> 
> That said, Dale has a history of saying things to get a reaction.  He's funny if you take him with a grain of salt.  (I also have a sneaking suspicion that he would rip a guy apart for hitting his little girl).



i was definitely raised to never raise a hand to a woman in anger. although my 1st wife ALMOST got that. she actually hit me with the claw end of a claw hammer. she was a dope fiend. i didn't even hit her for that and i was bleeding like a stuck pig. on my birthday, no less. i don't think hitting a woman is right, whatsoever. like you said, i was just kind of humorously making a point.


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