# The Quest for an Agent Begins



## Tatham (Dec 8, 2013)

Four years ago I underwent the task I'd been itching to undertake since my early youth. I remember the exact moment. Not long after my lady love told me that she was with child. I couldn't have been happier. But what then? What would that child see when he grows up other than an unhappy chap working under the man with no goals accomplished. I knew that would never do. So I decided to go forth with what I did best. I took up pen and notebook and began to write all these ideas that I'd been carrying with me since childhood.

Since that day there have been many learning curves. I really didn't know what I was getting into. My knowledge on grammar was below what I needed it to be. So when I finished my book a year later it looked like a bloody mess; as soothe would have it, I was not pleased at all. Accepting this I took to reading... a lot! Fiction and non-fiction, the How To Write For Dummies etc. Plenty on the genre I was writing, like Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles and George R.R Martin's Songs of Ice & Fire and a little Philip K. Dick (yes, my book is rather diverse). It all paid off. However, when an artist can never admit to being proud of their work I share that train of thought. But in the back of my head I knew it was time to let it be and explore the opportunities open to me. And begin working on my next book of course.

So here I am hunting for agents. Early days. And for people like me who have finished their book and intend to publish traditionally, I must recommend highly that you research, research and research into how to write a damn proposal; my brain melted when I realized how much agents expect in these proposals, but they are essential. So I hear. Fun when you know how. Already I've sent my proposal and sample chapter to two agents, while also dodging a few that did not fit the bill with me and many others. Google is great when you need to learn from another's experience; always check through word of mouth before you invest time with anybody. The people at http://www.curtisbrowncreative.co.uk/ and http://www.foxmason.com/ currently have my proposal and sample chapter.

So the hard part has begun. I feel better now, getting this off my chest. And with that I ask that if anybody has any further recommendations for what agent to go for then please let me know. I'm not sure if my country limits me to who I have but I live in the UK, so I'd prefer somebody within this particular vicinity. Thanks (and I guess sorry in a way) if you laboured through all of that.


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## Elvenswordsman (Dec 8, 2013)

Not from the UK, won't make recommendations. However, have you thought of just self-publishing? There are so many direct to consumer options now that it seems almost silly to enter into sales through an agent, who negotiates with a publisher on your behalf.

Have you looked into self publishing?


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## dale (Dec 8, 2013)

i recommend using this site. type in your genre and all that in the search engine and page after page of agents will show up for you to give a shot with....

http://www.agentquery.com/


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## Tatham (Dec 9, 2013)

I've considered self publishing online but I wanted to give this route a shot first to see where it gets me. And thank you dale. I'll be checking through this.


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## Elvenswordsman (Dec 9, 2013)

It may be your downfall. But good luck all the same.


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## Caragula (Dec 9, 2013)

It won't be his downfall.  He always has the online option to fall back on.  Even if the supposedly greedy agent and publisher takes their slice of his hard earned money, he will have exposure.  And with exposure he could always in the future self publish and have an established base to build out his marketing on.

Also, he will have proved that people with no vested interest in his writing thought that it was of sufficient quality that people would part with money for it.

He has nothing to lose and everything to gain by trying the publishing world first.


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## Elvenswordsman (Dec 9, 2013)

Caragula said:


> It won't be his downfall.  He always has the online option to fall back on.  Even if the supposedly greedy agent and publisher takes their slice of his hard earned money, he will have exposure.  And with exposure he could always in the future self publish and have an established base to build out his marketing on.
> 
> Also, he will have proved that people with no vested interest in his writing thought that it was of sufficient quality that people would part with money for it.
> 
> He has nothing to lose and everything to gain by trying the publishing world first.




Most writers aren't well versed in contract law. It would be great to get exposure, but most contracts require further commitment than 1 book.


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## Caragula (Dec 9, 2013)

If not one, how many more than one?  This is where the agent comes in, who is versed in contract law.  I'm happy self publishing exists, and it will be my outlet when I have failed to get my book published traditionally, but if everything I've read on forums, newspaper articles and blogs is anything to go by, 70% of bugger all is bugger all


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## Elvenswordsman (Dec 9, 2013)

Good points Caragula. I still maintain my pursuit of self publishing, but I can't argue there are valid bonuses to being involved with an agent.


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## movieman (Dec 9, 2013)

Caragula said:


> This is where the agent comes in, who is versed in contract law.



How many agents actually have any legal training?

And, remember, you'll be signing a contract with that agent, which you'll want to hire a lawyer to check first anyway. At least, if you don't want to be, say, paying them 15% of your writing income for life, even on books after you stopped using them as your agent.


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## dale (Dec 9, 2013)

there's a reason why the vast majority of successful authors pay that 15% to a reputable agent: it's worth it.


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## Elvenswordsman (Dec 9, 2013)

Dale - there are so many reputable agents out there, and not everyone will get to one.


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## dale (Dec 9, 2013)

Elvenswordsman said:


> Dale - there are so many reputable agents out there, and not everyone will get to one.



yeah. i know. i just went through it with my novel. i just got it accepted to be published myself by a small publisher, but i would have LOVED to hand
15% of my money over to an agent. lol. it would have meant a bigger publisher. more recognition. oh well. maybe next time.


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## Tatham (Dec 10, 2013)

I have every intention of writing more than one book. I noted this in my proposal. I've already started work on the sequel, without an agent or publisher in my midst. Got to keep that candle burning brightly. And I must say that 15% is a small price to pay for the exposure merited in the long run, one I'd be happy to pay.


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## Caragula (Dec 10, 2013)

Dale, that's great news, well done, and fingers crossed for your book.  Of course, Tatham (and I) can go direct to publishers with our work prior to going self publish, I for one wanted the chance to get a bigger publisher and the support of an agent first, but nothing precludes me then hitting the slush piles of publishers.  I'm cracking on with the second novel in the meantime.


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## Marc (Dec 10, 2013)

For e-books in certain genres Random House (Penguin Random House, Penguin House, Random Penguin) accepts submissions directly from the author. This is the route I took and ended up with a three book contract, without an agent. Would my contract have been any different with an agent? Good question. I doubt it. If RH wants to offer me another contract after the three books are done, I think agent would be quite valuable in this scenario.


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## Tatham (Dec 10, 2013)

Caragula said:


> Dale, that's great news, well done, and fingers crossed for your book.  Of course, Tatham (and I) can go direct to publishers with our work prior to going self publish, I for one wanted the chance to get a bigger publisher and the support of an agent first, but nothing precludes me then hitting the slush piles of publishers.  I'm cracking on with the second novel in the meantime.


Kudos on working on the next novel. Keep that fire burning and believe in your work. I'll do the same 

I'll check out Random House in the meantime and see what it has to offer.


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## escorial (Dec 10, 2013)

well done dale with your book


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## Caragula (Dec 10, 2013)

Great news on the e-books Marc, good luck to you too.  This thread is quite inspiring!!


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## Alexa (Dec 10, 2013)

movieman said:


> How many agents actually have any legal training?



This is an easy question: _reputable_ agents with _reputable_ agencies (which is something you have to check out, though that's pretty easily done, these days) have overwhelmingly more training in and experience of negotiating author/publisher contracts than the average lawyer does.



movieman said:


> And, remember, you'll be signing a contract with that agent



That's a comparatively lightweight issue, anyway: such agreements are normally terminable fairly easily on well-defined terms - and the terms of those agreement are fairly standard anyway. You just need to make sure that the agency concerned is an approved member of the relevant and appropriate professional association/body in the relevant country.



movieman said:


> you'll want to hire a lawyer to check first anyway. At least, if you don't want to be, say, paying them 15% of your writing income for life, even on books after you stopped using them as your agent.



Sorry, but this is just nonsense. No reputable literary agent would become entitled to a percentage of an author's future income on book deals negotiated after the author has stopped using them as an agent. (Nor would it stand up in court even if they purported to).


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## Tyler Danann (Dec 12, 2013)

In the UK it can be funny with financial laws etc. 

What about self-publishing first THEN go to a mainstream publisher?

If you get luck you can cancel your books with the online supplier and jump ship to the book publisher etc.


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## Tatham (Dec 27, 2013)

I've recently looked into self publishing on Amazon. Turns out that agents like to see what sort of money your book can make, if any at all. So what's the harm? Only my brain melts when I try to work out all this tax rubbish. Amazon presumes I am a citizen of the USA and requests I give them a TIN to prevent them from taxing me 30% of my earnings. I've read up a few articles online but the only help I find is for businesses taking the shortcut of of getting an EIN number, which is of no help to me. At this point I am very frustrated with Amazon for having something like this in place. Can anybody please help me out? An experience to share perhaps?


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## Tyler Danann (Dec 27, 2013)

You can apply for a TIN number I think (is costs a few $$) which should get you off the 30% tax BS.


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## Tatham (Dec 30, 2013)

Applying for a TIN is no easy matter. Apparently it involves trips to the London Embassy and sending away a passport or some other form of ID. It's nice how Amazon makes this so difficult for people outside the US. I don't have an agent to look through this all with, pointing out all the legal jargon. Yet (with a little luck). Reading through the form at the end without giving a TIN doesn't make me feel 100% about what I'm signing for. Hate forms like that! Feels like one great obstacle to overcome. I never started this for the money and I'm quite happy to lose the 30%. But is this hassle really worth it with Amazon or should I just stick to going at this the old fashion way? This is the conundrum I face.


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## Tyler Danann (Dec 31, 2013)

I hear your cry Tatham. 
I am fortunate that I have a SSN from my days in the USA, it was this alone that got me the 30% waiver I feel.


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## Caragula (Jan 16, 2014)

Well, I've just signed with an agent, so hopefully soon I'll have some hard experience to confirm just how much he's worth   Right now, I'm delighted, not just for the fact of it, but because we've met and he's passionate about the genre, spent most of his career in publishing so knows that very very well, and he's been straight with me from day one and has explained really well the steps we'll be taking to get my book ready for submission.  Hopefully it's the start of a long and happy road.  We'll see.


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## Gavrushka (Jan 16, 2014)

A huge bucketful of congratulations! - Please keep us posted on progress. - It's inspirational for the rest of us!


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## Tatham (Jan 16, 2014)

Well done Caragula. I'm still in the waiting area for an agent so it's always uplifting to hear that somebody has made it to the next level. Keep us updated


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## Robdemanc (Jan 17, 2014)

I'm a bit confused with all the self publishing that goes on.  Does it mean you have to come up with your own artwork?  I know that publishers will create the artwork for your book, but in self publishing who does it?


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## movieman (Jan 17, 2014)

Robdemanc said:


> I'm a bit confused with all the self publishing that goes on.  Does it mean you have to come up with your own artwork?  I know that publishers will create the artwork for your book, but in self publishing who does it?



Up to you. You can create the cover yourself, or pay someone to do it for you.


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## movieman (Jan 17, 2014)

Tatham said:


> I've read up a few articles online but the only help I find is for businesses taking the shortcut of of getting an EIN number, which is of no help to me.



If you register as a sole proprieter (actually, do you even need to do that in the UK?) you're legitimately a business and can get an EIN. I really have to sort that out soon, because I finally made enough money on Amazon to be worth having them pay me .

BTW, it's not Amazon's fault, the US government make everyone do it when paying money to non-Americans.


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## movieman (Jan 17, 2014)

lex said:


> This is an easy question: _reputable_ agents with _reputable_ agencies (which is something you have to check out, though that's pretty easily done, these days) have overwhelmingly more training in and experience of negotiating author/publisher contracts than the average lawyer does.



Do you really, honestly, believe that agents know the law better than an IP lawyer?

But it's actually worse than that. The lawyer works for you. You're the only one they have to keep happy. If the publisher hates them after the negotiations, they don't care. You're paying them, not the publisher. An agent is useless without publisher contacts. Do you really think they'll fight as hard for you as a lawyer will, or just roll over and say 'it's a standard contract, everyone signs them, stop being silly'?



> That's a comparatively lightweight issue, anyway: such agreements are normally terminable fairly easily on well-defined terms - and the terms of those agreement are fairly standard anyway. You just need to make sure that the agency concerned is an approved member of the relevant and appropriate professional association/body in the relevant country.



So you're going to sign a contract that will control your writing income for years without paying a lawyer to read it? Oh, and with someone who you believe knows the law better than a lawyer does?



> Sorry, but this is just nonsense. No reputable literary agent would become entitled to a percentage of an author's future income on book deals negotiated after the author has stopped using them as an agent. (Nor would it stand up in court even if they purported to).



There have been plenty of cases of agents trying to get commission on books sold after they were fired by the writer. I'm not sure whether any have actually been upheld in court yet, but, if you signed that agency agreement without paying a lawyer to check it first, you're far more likely to find yourself in that position, and far more likely to lose.


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## Caragula (Jan 17, 2014)

There are plenty of examples of contracts to compare your own contract with an agent to, the clause in mine about termination is clear, I can terminate at any time, but any contracts in existence are seen out to their expiry.  In this respect the contract will not control my writing income for any longer than I wish it to be so.  The language is plain English.

Literary agency contracts are, from what I've seen, straightforward.  It's the contracts with the publisher that are the minefield, regarding the various home and foreign rights, other media rights, publicity commitments, expenses and so on.  Certainly movieman you may be right that these contracts would benefit from a lawyer looking at them, and as such it might be better than a literary agent, but that would depend on the agent and their particular experience.

I find it hard to believe a lawyer would fight harder than an agent when the agent's own income depends on you.  Again, the agent, like an estate agent, may have an interest in early payment over larger but much longer term payment, e.g. advance vs royalties, but when you factor in that the agent does indeed need to have the contacts, it follows that you may struggle to get into the enviable position of considering publishing contracts without that agent's belief in your work and their rolodex.

Lawyers also work on a flat fee don't they?  If you've got the cash then they're an option.  Agents on a % of income, almost a 'no win no fee', have that going for them too if you're cash-strapped.


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## movieman (Jan 17, 2014)

Caragula said:


> I find it hard to believe a lawyer would fight harder than an agent when the agent's own income depends on you.



Their income doesn't depend on you. It depends on their publisher contacts. Their motivation is very different to yours; yes, they might be able to get you more money, and, say, convince the publisher to remove the non-compete clause from your contract, but if the publisher stops talking to them afterwards, it's cost them far more than they would have made from their 15% of your increased income.


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## Caragula (Jan 17, 2014)

Do publishers generally remove non-compete clauses from contracts they offer writers' representatives or writers themselves when asked to do so?  And is the outcome neutral with regard to their willingness to consider a further book from that same writer?


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## Alexa (Jan 20, 2014)

movieman said:


> There have been plenty of cases of agents trying  to get commission on books sold after they were fired by the  writer.



That isn't what you said, though.

It isn't even _similar_ to what you said.

It's also perfectly understandable that such situations can possibly  arise, in respect of work already done with specific manuscripts prior  to the termination of the agency agreement. However, you *won't* find any at all, anywhere, I think, where the agent purports to be entitled to a cut of future earnings from manuscripts *not even written prior to the termination of the agency agreement*.



movieman said:


> I'm not sure whether any have actually been upheld in court yet



No indeed. Movieman, I promise I have absolutely *no*  intention of hostility or rudeness toward you, and no idea what your  legal qualifications are, if any, and my sole reason for posting in this  thread is to point out to anyone else reading that in my opinion you're  being very quick to offer legal advice here, and some of what you've  said so far has been totally, unreservedly mistaken. Yes, I know  that people "ought to know better than to take legal advice in a forum"  and that they do so at their own risk etc. etc., but it still does no  harm to specify this as well (given some of your expressed beliefs on  this subject).



Caragula said:


> Do publishers generally remove non-compete clauses from contracts they offer writers' representatives or writers themselves when asked to do so?



Agents are used to negotiating these. It's part of what they do for a living.

If you have a look at some of the standard publishing terms in "skeleton contracts" (some publishers even have these available as downloadable PDF's on their websites), you'll see some of the very striking differences, even in the "shell form," between the contracts for agented and unagented authors. And then on top of that you have to appreciate that agents can and do negotiate all the terms far more successfully than the typical unagented author can.



Caragula said:


> And is the outcome neutral with regard to their willingness to consider a further book from that same writer?



A lot of what's said in contracts on that subject doesn't get anyone very far, because some of it has the habit of not being legally enforceable anyway. Again, an experienced agent within your jurisdiction will always be able to offer advice about this.
_
Most_ publishers, receiving a "first book manuscript" (from an agented or an unagented author), these days, will want it to be considered as the first book of at least a two-book, and often a three-book, deal. They're not just taking on "one book", in the case of a new author: they're taking on "future prospects" as well. And from their perspective, that's part of the deal. They want to reserve their rights to see the next book first. If they purport to reserve the right to publish it "on the same terms" (as the first book), that probably wouldn't stand up in court anyway, but any agent with more than a week's experience will get that changed to "on proper and appropriate terms" anyway. (The point here is that what's "proper and appropriate" for the second book can easily depend on the sales of and response to the first book).


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## Tatham (Jan 26, 2014)

Well I went ahead and published it for the Amazon Kindle. Too impatient to wait for a response from an agent and really just wanted to get my idea exposed. I'm still hunting for one in the meantime, but I thought it best to try and build a following, adding to the ammunition for a future proposal. The indie adventure, thus, begins.


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## Gavrushka (Jan 26, 2014)

I wish you the best of luck, Tatham, and keep us informed of progress! 

It'd be good if you started a separate thread on this, so a few more of us get to see it. ( I see you've the link in your sig already.) - Perhaps you already have, but I'd put an excerpt up in YA fiction. (I think that's the Genre, yes?)


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## Tatham (Jan 26, 2014)

Thanks Gavrushka 

It's a fantasy novel, although I would say it's more on the mature side with a bit of strong language, violence and with one suggestively intimate scene. I posted an excerpt a while ago now, which got me a few mixed responses, some of which I did use to improve on. If it gets me a little more exposure I'd be more than happy to share something else with you all.


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