# How to respond to critique



## Firemajic (Aug 14, 2017)

PULEEEEZE remember, most critiques are not a personal attack, seriously, get over yourself! How are we going to learn and grow as writers if we are constantly offended by any critique that is NOT dripping with empty praise and vain ego massaging. I am a serious writer, I am here to learn, I am not here to have my fragile ego polished... give me a break. If you do not agree with the critique, just say "Thank you for reading " and mooooooove on......


----------



## escorial (Aug 14, 2017)

Second that...


----------



## PiP (Aug 14, 2017)

Well said, Fire


----------



## Firemajic (Aug 14, 2017)

*"Take this kiss upon the brow!
This line is kinda cliché and unoriginal... 
and, in parting from you now,
thus much let me avow-
you are not wrong who deem** Maybe rework this line... it sounds obscure...
that my days have been a dream;

Ok, here, Mr. Poe, you are losing me... what hope has flown away ... and why???
yet if hope has flown away
in a night or in a day,
in a vision, or in none,
is it therefore the less gone?
All that we see or seem*** LOOOOVE the last 2 lines! You nailed this, Edgar.. I mean Mr. Poe...  
is but a dream within a dream."
Edgar Allen Poe, The complete stories and Poems


Hummmm... interesting Mr. Poe... I thought your first line was ... well, kinda cliché and not very imaginative OR original.... then you wondered off track a little bit and where is your imagery? Nice mood though, I think with a little bit of polishing, you could have a fabulous poem...



Ok, why am I critiquing Edgar Allen Poe? Just to show you that not everyone is going to like everything you write.
EVERYONE reads poetry differently, everyone interprets the poet's words in a PERSONAL way... so what does it mean... when I have a negative comment about Poe's poem... Does that mean I do not love and respect Edgar Allen Poe? No, it does not. Does it mean that I think I can write BETTER than Mr. Poe? Nooo, it does not... It simply means that I have an OPINION... Nothing malicious... Nothing belittling or reflecting your lack of intelligence... or skill... My opinion is MY POV, given so that the poet may understand what the reader is receiving from the words, mood imagery ect... That is all... truly... this was not a personal attack on Mr. Poe, it was NOT a personal attack of his work... it was just my %$#$^ opinion, given with respect, and honor... that's all... 

I am always honored when I am lucky enough to receive a critique of my work. I Appreciate that the writer of the critique has taken the time and energy to try to offer me a DIFFERENT perspective... a new way to see the same thing, I love to be challenges and pushed out of my comfort zone... I cannot tolerate stagnation and a one dimensional way of thinking, that strangles creativity....   *


----------



## LeeC (Aug 14, 2017)

I heard that! Why's everybody always pickin' on me? [THE COASTERS "Charlie Brown"]


----------



## Firemajic (Aug 14, 2017)

LeeC said:


> I heard that! Why's everybody always pickin' on me? [THE COASTERS "Charlie Brown"]




:tickled_pink: * SMOOOOOOCH*....... Ooo.....


----------



## SilverMoon (Aug 15, 2017)

Fire! I am aflame with relief for your exampling how to critique a *Poe*t ! I wonder if he's stark raven mad, turning over in his grave, because you have your own mind; minding his work with_ your gift for critique._

Sometimes crybabies cry because they are spoiled (_Whahh_! _My way or no way!_). Sometimes crybabies cry because they are hurt (_Ouch! Who threw me out with the bath water?!_)

I think it all boils down to how an Opinion is delivered. If members followed an iota of your lead, not a whimper would be heard - one way or the other. 

You, the :star:, who's got the words wrapped around her finger.

Silver:moon:


----------



## Pete_C (Aug 15, 2017)

It's an interesting thing. Critique is a valuable tool for any writer, whether new or established. The ones of value are not the 'I love this, so moving' type, but the ones that get under the skin of your work and start to question the whys and wherefores. I have improved thanks to critique, and I know others from a range of forums and groups who have also improved.

Interestingly, the ones who develop best are those who listen, think about what's being said and why it is being said, then filter which advice has value for them and examine how they can use that going forwards. Those who either ignore or bicker over reviews rarely move forwards, and can often go backwards due to a misplaced complacency.

I've never understood why writers will put a piece of work up for workshopping or critique and only value one-liners sayings its good rather than in-depth explanations of how it could be improved. Of course, what happens is those who offer in-depth and useful critiques avoid the writers who quibble, and so all they ever get is one-liners of praise. Maybe it's a self-fulfilling prophesy?

I know that I write for a minority audience. If I showed some of my work to 20 people I'd be lucky if 1 liked it. Too many would find it lacking in poetic language and uplifting themes. They find it too skeletal in structure, too base in content and often jarring in flow. That's intentional. However, that doesn't mean I wouldn't want a well thought out critique from the 19 (or more) who don't like it. I'm interested in what they think and how it makes them feel (or not feel). It doesn't mean I'll agree with them or change anything, but I'm grateful for their time and input, and I thank them for it. 

Here's the thing: they can never be wrong. They have their own tastes, their own ideas and their own opinions. If they hate my work, they are right to do so. I'm happy for that. I want to know why, not so I can change it (or change them), but so that I can explore what I'm doing in a more expansive way. Will I ever write anything mainstream? No. I write about engineering for a living and its all the mainstream I need thank you. But I'm still open to their thoughts.

I find it hard to understand whether people who ask for critique and then argue the toss are just egotists, or maybe they've been filled so full of false praise they believe it, or maybe they just can't see the points being made because they haven't worked at writing hard enough.

It's a shame, because I know many who give good critiques (I almost wrote good crit, as in 'you give good crit') will stop oiffering them to those who argue, and that impacts on the overall value of the forum, because you can also learn from critiques of other peoples' work!


----------



## H.Brown (Aug 15, 2017)

I think that critique is subjective, just being told that someone likes your writing can be helpful in keeping a writer writing. In-depth critique is what a writer looks for when their work has gotten to the point where they can no-longer see all of their own mistakes. I also think we must remember that not everyone feels like they can give in-depth critique. I agree that writers need to be more open minded when receiving critique and must sift through as you have said for what they agree applies to their work and leaving the comments that don't behind instead of arguing the issue, a key thing I always remember is that not everyone can be right all the time. 

I see critique similar to singing in public, people who are close to you are there to tell you, you are amazing, they build you up but it is those honest few that can stand up and tell you if you suck or not. This is how I see critiques on here if I wanted to be told I'm amazing I'd just send my WIP to my mum or sister or friends but posting it on here allows me to see what other writers think.

My main piece of advice when it comes to critiques is to take what people say with a pinch of salt, remember that people are not trying to upset you but rather the are trying to help with their comments.


----------



## Dave Watson (Aug 15, 2017)

IMO if you want to be a writer, in any kind of discipline, and can't handle criticism or rejection, you're in the wrong business. A thick skin, and a thicker layer of stubbornness are prerequisites in this game I've found.


----------



## haribol (Aug 15, 2017)

Firemajic said:


> PULEEEEZE remember, most critiques are not a personal attack, seriously, get over yourself! How are we going to learn and grow as writers if we are constantly offended by any critique that is NOT dripping with empty praise and vain ego massaging. I am a serious writer, I am here to learn, I am not here to have my fragile ego polished... give me a break. If you do not agree with the critique, just say "Thank you for reading " and mooooooove on......



Yes, very great idea and indeed this is a good advice for all of us. I never feel offended I my poem is critiqued. I feel happy when my poems are commented for I can always learn and know wherein  lies my flaws. As a writer others' points of view matter a great deal


----------



## midnightpoet (Aug 15, 2017)

Attitude is important, both in the writer and those that critique; a give and take of both sides that emphasizes co-operation, mutual improvement (yes, one who critiques can also learn something) and professional courtesy. A thick skin on the part of the writer is important also, but also remember that the writer can take something positive from even a very negative review.  

Critics should remember, though - "That stinks" or "You call that a poem?" are not helpful; it's always a good idea to think about what you've typed before hitting the "post reply" button. Have you tried to help the writer, or are you trying to bolster your ego?  
(smiles)

Carry on and keep writing.


----------



## Nellie (Aug 15, 2017)

midnightpoet said:


> Attitude is important, both in the writer and those that critique;
> 
> Critics should remember, though - "That stinks" or "You call that a poem?" are not helpful; it's always a good idea to think about what you've typed before hitting the "post reply" button. Have you tried to help the writer, or are you trying to bolster your ego?
> (smiles)



I agree..... Attitude is important. If the critic comes across as a bully by saying those type of things, the writer may never want to write again. Yes, the writer must have tough skin, but the critic needs to consider how they may come across. Words are powerful!!
 As Suzannah Windsor Freeman points out in _writeitsideways.com, _"when critiquing, you don't have to be cruel to be kind-- be constructive to be kind."


----------



## Firemajic (Aug 15, 2017)

Pete_C said:


> It's an interesting thing. Critique is a valuable tool for any writer, whether new or established. The ones of value are not the 'I love this, so moving' type, but the ones that get under the skin of your work and start to question the whys and wherefores. I have improved thanks to critique, and I know others from a range of forums and groups who have also improved.
> 
> Interestingly, the ones who develop best are those who listen, think about what's being said and why it is being said, then filter which advice has value for them and examine how they can use that going forwards. Those who either ignore or bicker over reviews rarely move forwards, and can often go backwards due to a misplaced complacency.
> 
> ...





:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::love_heart::love_heart::love_heart:.....WHOOOOT woooooot!!!! Exactly....  Thank youuu!!!


----------



## Firemajic (Aug 15, 2017)

Nellie said:


> I agree..... Attitude is important. If the critic comes across as a bully by saying those type of things, the writer may never want to write again. Yes, the writer must have tough skin, but the critic needs to consider how they may come across. Words are powerful!!
> As Suzannah Windsor Freeman points out in _writeitsideways.com, _"when critiquing, you don't have to be cruel to be kind-- be constructive to be kind."





You are right, Nellie... ATTITUDE is crucial... when giving and receiving critique... Tone , make sure your tone, when offering critique, is 
1. RESPECTFUL... what is respectful? Do not use belittling phrases, do not assume that you know what the poet wants to say... keep it simple, and remember the golden rule... treat others as you would like to be treated. Attitude is important, if you start off sounding like a "know-it-all", well that is a huge turn off, causing anyone to feel stupid or embarrassed intentionally is a pathetic thing to do...

Now, when you receive a critique that you do not like, or one that you disagree with...
1: be RESPECTFUL
2: Open a dialogue, ask questions, and if you feel the need to defend your work [ and who doesn't] be RESPECTFUL
3 DO NOT TAKE THE COMMENTS AS A PERSONAL ATTACK
4: Do not retaliate and act like a smart ass, and start with the personal digs and comments...
5: At the very least, say "Thank you for reading"
6" MOOOOOOVE ON!!! 
7: Do not hold a grudge, and pounce on every opportunity to sling shit and take another dig, to soothe your own ego.
8: REMEMBER.... please remember.. that this is our safe place, our writing community [ look up the definition of community] this is where we hang out, share time, ideas, thoughts, inspiration... this is where we work on our dream, and where we share our passion... we are all adults, we love words and words are powerful, let us be kind to each other.....

and last of all... ask yourself this question.. "Why are you posting your poem" ... "What do you want from your readers"....do you want honesty.... or adulation ....


----------



## andrewclunn (Aug 15, 2017)

Say what you will, but passive aggressive personal messages with thinly veiled threats have served me well in protecting my precious ego.  I often send Microsoft hate mail for their busy body "spell checker" that just doesn't recognize my brillaince!


----------



## Nellie (Aug 15, 2017)

Firemajic said:


> :cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::love_heart::love_heart::love_heart:.....WHOOOOT woooooot!!!! Exactly....  Thank youuu!!!



Okay, after reading this:



			
				Pete_C said:
			
		

> Interestingly, the ones who develop best are those who listen, think about what's being said and why it is being said, then filter which advice has value for them and examine how they can use that going forwards. Those who either ignore or bicker over reviews rarely move forwards, and can often go backwards due to a misplaced complacency.
> 
> 
> I've never understood why writers will put a piece of work up for workshopping or critique and only value one-liners sayings its good rather than in-depth explanations of how it could be improved. Of course, what happens is those who offer in-depth and useful critiques avoid the writers who quibble, and so all they ever get is one-liners of praise. Maybe it's a self-fulfilling prophesy?
> ...




If one "asks" for critique, then the critic needs to do it diplomatically, after reading/hearing what the writer is really trying to say. 

 here is my question: 

I don't understand why there is the forum for "Poetry"  and then there is also a forum for "Poetry Discussion". 

Shouldn't the "Discussion" forum be the workshop for critiquing other's poetry? 
Why can't we post our poem in the Poetry forum and then see it discussed in the "Discussion" forum?  One needs to go.


----------



## Firemajic (Aug 15, 2017)

But Why, Nellie? I am trying to understand your POV... Do you not want your poetry discussed/critiqued in the main poetry thread?


----------



## Nellie (Aug 15, 2017)

Firemajic said:


> You are right, Nellie... ATTITUDE is crucial...
> and last of all... ask yourself this question.. "Why are you posting your poem" ... "What do you want from your readers"....do you want honesty.... or adulation ....



I am posting my poem to be heard from my POV. Sure, there is always room for improvement in my work, but honestly, it needs to be done constructively.... constructive criticism. If someone tells me my work sucks or I should never write this again, that may be honesty from that person's POV, but for me, it is DEVASTATING!


----------



## Chesters Daughter (Aug 15, 2017)

Nellie said:


> Okay, after reading this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Poetry Discussion*, as its sub-heading indicates, is for the following: "Discuss poetic techniques, forms and styles. Please do not post poetry for critique here."

This is where you discuss all things poetic from questions about form to any other topic which has to do with poetry, and the threads posted here do not always relate to either of the existing poetry boards. This board is essential and serves its purpose.

*Poetry* is for posting work you want to share with the understanding that if you post it, it will be subject to critique. If you don't want critique, either post your work in Tavern Poetry or start a blog. The point of the Poetry board is not only to share, but to teach. And it, too, serves its purpose.

*Poets' Workshop* is for work you want intense critique on, whether your piece is a work in progress or tentatively complete. Most importantly, the Workshop is hidden from non-members as well as search engines thereby protecting the originator's first rights should they wish to submit their work for publishing. The ability to preserve first rights is essential to those who are seeking to be published. 
*
As I've explained, each board serves a separate and essential purpose and never will any one of them be removed.*


----------



## Chesters Daughter (Aug 15, 2017)

Nellie said:


> I am posting my poem to be heard from my POV. Sure, there is always room for improvement in my work, but honestly, it needs to be done constructively.... constructive criticism. If someone tells me my work sucks or I should never write this again, that may be honesty from that person's POV, but for me, it is DEVASTATING!



Nellie, has someone used the actual words: "Your poetry sucks. You should never write again." in one of your threads, because if they did, you should have reported it. The coupling of those phrases is absolutely valueless and certainly not constructive in any fashion. If someone is speaking that way, they are not employing proper netiquette as prescribed by da Rules. Should such a comment ever be made to anyone, please inform us immediately.


----------



## Firemajic (Aug 15, 2017)

Nellie said:


> I am posting my poem to be heard from my POV. Sure, there is always room for improvement in my work, but honestly, it needs to be done constructively.... constructive criticism. If someone tells me my work sucks or I should never write this again, that may be honesty from that person's POV, but for me, it is DEVASTATING!




Ok, well, why is it devastating? You know your work does NOT suck... If someone tells you that you should never write again... who the hell cares? Of course you must write...
If someone says "Nellie, your work sucks"... ask them why, ask them to show you point by point, WHY IT SUCKS, then ask them how to fix it.... does that mean you have to change your poem to conform to their ideas? NO, it does not...
Nellie, you are a writer and a poet, you have skill, can you improve? I HOPE so... I hope none of us ever stop working our asses off to improve and hone our skills, to grow, to learn, to understand.... learning and being challenged is the very fire that feeds our imagination and our passion...


----------



## Firemajic (Aug 15, 2017)

Chester's Daughter said:


> Nellie, has someone used the actual words: "Your poetry sucks. You should never write again." in one of your threads, because if they did, you should have reported it. The coupling of those phrases is absolutely valueless and certainly not constructive in any fashion. If someone is speaking that way, they are not employing proper netiquette as prescribed by da Rules. Should such a comment ever be made to anyone, please inform us immediately.




..Absolutely, anyone who would use the words "you suck" in their critique, has discredited themselves as a critic of any value, knowledge or worth...


----------



## SilverMoon (Aug 15, 2017)

> Originally Posted by *Chester's Daughter*
> 
> *
> Poetry* is for posting work you want to share with the understanding that if you post it, it will be subject to critique. If you don't want critique, either post your work in Tavern Poetry or start a blog. The point of the Poetry board is not only to share, but to teach. And it, too, serves its purpose.
> ...



Thank you, CD. _Whew! _You very clearly outlined the very question I've had. "What is the difference?"



> *Posted beneath Poetry Workshop Header   *
> 
> A members-only forum for poets to post works for serious critique or to prevent access to search engines.



I wonder if your following were to be included beneath this Header confusion might be avoided? Your exact words are a great clarification.



> Originally Posted by *Chester's Daughter*
> 
> Poet's Workshop is for work you want intense critique on, whether your piece is a work in progress or tentatively complete"




I've never entered "Writing Discussion" before. I will be returning! :adoration:


----------



## Darkkin (Aug 15, 2017)

One fact that should ring loud and clear with critique is that it is objective and impartial.  Observations strictly on the material posted for critique, not the individual who posted it, (be they friend or foe...).  The reader offering the observations should articulate the whethertos and the whyfores of their questions and comments.  If there is no why presented, no comments other than 'I liked this piece.'  'Good writing.'  or something personal aimed at the writer then it isn't actual critique.  This is a critical point that is often overlooked in replies.

Consider that the definition of critique stems from the fusion of two words critical and technique.  Essentially, the application of critical thought to a written technique.  Many replies on the open creative boards are back patting replies.  Nice to receive, but not real critique as it doesn't often take more than a fleeting impression into account.  A one or two minute reply does not constitute much more than a first glance.

As such, when a writer does end up with an actual critique, often times they can be taken by surprise and some immediately assume that it is meant as a personal attack because true critique does not rest upon its laurels, highlighting what worked and skipping over areas that need work.  It brings issues to the fore and articulates a why for the reason the issue was raised.

True critique is aimed at the piece, its tone, the voice of the narrator, and content, never the writer, all due to a simple fact.  The fourth wall.  As soon as the writer posts, it goes up and the writing itself will stand or fall on its own merit.  Objective observation is not meant as a personal affront, although there are writers who will view it as such.  Critique should be constructive, not destructive.  A balance between what works and what needs work.

- D. the T.


----------



## aj47 (Aug 15, 2017)

I think, too, the point must be made that, if someone is taking the time to critique your work, they think the work is worth the effort of investing in it.  If they thought it was worthless they'd either ignore it or trash it and move on.  Saying, "you might want to consider..." or "have you thought of ...?" is a call to action, to improvement, to elevation.  Not a demand for destruction or devastation or elimination.  

I vividly remember the time I was called on the carpet for misusing the word "eternity" and you can bet your booty I never did it again. Telling me I had the wrong word was not an attack on me, but on my work.  Now, was I responsible for that word choice?  Absolutely! However, the issue was with the work, not with my personal habits.


----------



## Pete_C (Aug 15, 2017)

I think if someone gets an honest critique and thinks 'I'll never write again' they're probably not the type of person who wants to move beyond the level they're at. In truth, for many, there's nothing wrong with that, but then they shouldn't post in a forum where critique is expected.

I grew up in a time and place where poetry got you a pool cue in the head! People around there didn't read anything other than tabloid newspapers and race form cards. Because of that, I started off with performance poetry in pubs; that drew some properly aggressive critiques! Being told your enjambments don't work is nothing compared to a pint glass of urine being bowled at your head!

When I first joined WF it had a very vibrant pool of talented poets, and critiques were tough. I think that fact actually increased forum activity, because people came here to improve their writing, not to get empty platitudes. Sure, some people might have come in, been critiqued and then ducked out, never to return, but they probably weren't in it for the long haul. Back then, the quality was very high because people had to revise and revise and revise before posting, because if you didn't someone would hand you your arse on a plate. The result was a lot of writers who developed very well indeed.


----------



## Firemajic (Aug 15, 2017)

Those who think I am picking on one person, I am not... truly, I am not being personal.... I have more concerns and comments about critique and about the fabulous poetry thread. There are things that I do not know how to deal with, things I want to do better, as a mentor.... I want the poetry thread to be a place of support, growth and inspiration, a friendly, respectful place where we can help each other and be honest without fear of rejection or without fear of hurting someone's feelings... and I want poets to post their work without fear of being embarrassed. I do not want anyone to leave the poetry thread feeling like they have been disrespected, ignored or unheard, your work matters to me, but I want it to matter to YOU too... 

In the next few days, I will express other concerns and I hope you all will share your thoughts with me... thanks to each one of you who cared enough to share your POV, I appreciate it so much... we cannot fix something if we do not speak..... and listen.


----------



## Firemajic (Aug 16, 2017)

As a mentor of the fabulous poetry thread, I read EVERY poem, and as a lover of poetry, I usually find something positive, something I love about each poem, so, it is easy for me to comment and offer my thoughts and comments on most poems... however, there are a lot of poems posted lately, that I just DO NOT UNDERSTAND! I read and reread.... and STILL... nothing... let me give you an example and this did not come from ANYONE here at WF, I am simply using this as an example:

*Pulled from this life some leaves in evergreen
or dressed like fragrant crinoline draped
over shadows by di Chirico, stolen
from a station where trains never run


*Huh???? Whaaat? Sure the phrases are poetically beautiful, but I do NOT UNDERSTAND the message... is it because I do not know how to read poetry? Is it because the poet is $#^$%$ with me? How can I comment on a poem that I do not understand... I mean, really, poetry should have a message... right?.... right? Please tell me I am not the only one who is frustrated with poems that are filled with beautiful, unique imagery and phrases, but lack a coherent message... or is IT JUST MEEE??????


----------



## Darkkin (Aug 16, 2017)

If the meaning or at least a glimmer of understanding is not found on a second or even third read through of a piece, more often than not the issue rests with the writing, not the reader.  And if as a reader, one does not understand, it is perfectly acceptable to say:  'This line/passage/segment is confusing, the message is not clear.  What is the meaning implied?'  It is also one of the most critical questions that can be asked in critique.  If the writer has a why ready, it allows for revision and possible clarification.  If they don't have an answer or reply with something like, 'Well it sounded good...' then it is clearly the writing that is at fault and not the reader.

Writers need to be aware of the rhyme and the reason behind their work.  'Well it sounds good...' is not sufficent reason if the line/passage adds nothing of value to the meaning and progression of a piece.  It is things like this that help hone editing skills and by being asked to account for one's words, it helps a writer to become more cognizant of their word choices. 

 Anybody can press buttons or scribble words on a page, but that alone does not make a writer.  True writing is a conscious, deliberate act.  Point A to point B.  Granted it isn't always a straight line, but writers are responsible for their content and whether or not it makes sense to the reader.  One can be as flowery and vague as one likes, but if readers don't understand the gist of the writing, the effort is wasted.  Overtly obscure is right next door to gibberish, neither of which constitutes good writing.  The whole quantity verses quality issue...Conscious writers are aware of their words and how they interact and conscious writing doesn't leave readers feeling as if they just wasted their time or doubting their own wits as they try to decipher overwritten metaphors.

There are many who will argue that all writing is worthy of being read, but if no thought or effort is laid out by the writer than why should others take the time to read it?  Good writing is defensible, careless writing collapses at the first sign of logic and critical thought.  Not a popular standpoint to the ego, but it is a simple truth.  The why of critique matters as much to the writers as it does to the readers.

One positive result of critique is that it helps writers to become aware of similar issues within their own work, in essence, it teaches one to practice as one preaches.  Read, analyse, articulate, do...A thoroughly conscious process that engages the brain as a whole, not just the skimming aspects.  Like playing an instrument, the more you do it, the more fluid the process becomes until it is an ingrained habit.

Writers who reply to critique with responses like, 'Well this took me five minutes.'  'I'm not looking to revise.'  'Sally read it and said it was perfect, so you're stupid, so there.' ,  are usually the pieces that crumple beneath the slightest pressure, not much substance behind the fluff, generally meaning that a piece was posted for the sake of backpatting and praise as opposed to actual improvement.  It is a scenario seen far too often and plays a significant role in why true critique is viewed as a personal attack and not as a tool for learning.

And while praise is very nice to receive, it doesn't provide a writer with tools.  This is what critique does, it hands the writer tools and hones those of the reader.  From a reader's standpoint, I like praise (who doesn't?    ), but truly respect and appreciate critique.  And it is respect for one's knowledge that is one of the hardest things to earn in any creative medium.

- D. the T.


----------



## Firemajic (Aug 16, 2017)

I agree, DarKKin... thank you for expressing what I was struggling to say, I appreciate it... I read a comment where someone said that "one must dig for the meaning in a poem".... and another comment where someone said that"" poetry is not about emotion"".... well, shouldn't the reader feel SOMETHING? Joy, sorrow, hope, fear, disgust, anger... something? Isn't that the reason we write? Do we REALLY have to dig through an emotionless poem with little meaning, or a meaning that is so obscure it leaves the reader feeling like an idiot.... it is very difficult to comment on a poem that I do not understand, do not misunderstand me, I love a fabulous metaphor, and I love the use of similes'....but really... isn't poetry about the MESSAGE....


----------



## Nellie (Aug 16, 2017)

Darkkin said:


> If the meaning or at least a glimmer of understanding is not found on a second or even third read through of a piece, more often than not the issue rests with the writing, not the reader.  And if as a reader, one does not understand, it is perfectly acceptable to say:  'This line/passage/segment is confusing, the message is not clear.  What is the meaning implied?'  It is also one of the most critical questions that can be asked in critique.  If the writer has a why ready, it allows for revision and possible clarification.  If they don't have an answer or reply with something like, 'Well it sounded good...' then it is clearly the writing that is at fault and not the reader.
> 
> Writers need to be aware of the rhyme and the reason behind their work.  'Well it sounds good...' is not sufficent reason if the line/passage adds nothing of value to the meaning and progression of a piece.  It is things like this that help hone editing skills and by being asked to account for one's words, it helps a writer to become more cognizant of their word choices.


 
If meaning isn't coming across as the writer intended and readers offer suggestions to clarify it, fine. But still, sometimes different words mean different things  to different folks across the ocean. 



			
				Darkkin said:
			
		

> The why of critique matters as much to the writers as it does to the readers.
> 
> One positive result of critique is that it helps writers to become aware of similar issues within their own work, in essence, it teaches one to practice as one preaches.  Read, analyse, articulate, do...A thoroughly conscious process that engages the brain as a whole, not just the skimming aspects.  Like playing an instrument, the more you do it, the more fluid the process becomes until it is an ingrained habit.



Yes, critiquing is a thoroughly conscious process that engages the whole brain. So does writing.  I'll be honest here. I have a challenge before me when it comes to writing. I have a damaged brain, resulting from an accident where I had brain surgery. Now I have epilepsy and as a result, I suffer from "aphasia", difficulty finding the correct words.  Sometimes the correct word(s) doesn't comes to my mind, so I do value other's critique, as long as it isn't condescending.




			
				Darkkin said:
			
		

> And while praise is very nice to receive, it doesn't provide a writer with tools.  This is what critique does, it hands the writer tools and hones those of the reader.  From a reader's standpoint, I like praise (who doesn't?    ), but truly respect and appreciate critique.  And it is respect for one's knowledge that is one of the hardest things to earn in any creative medium.
> 
> - D. the T.



Yes, who doesn't like praise. However, I do say it does provide the writer with a tool...... to keep on writing when their brain is on "hold", when they cannot find the right word or phrase or they feel like giving up because no one is willing to understand where they are coming from.


----------



## Firemajic (Aug 16, 2017)

Nellie said:


> If meaning isn't coming across as the writer intended and readers offer suggestions to clarify it, fine. But still, sometimes different words mean different things  to different folks across the ocean.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Nellie (Aug 16, 2017)

Firemajic said:


> [ ****
> 
> ****so I do value other's critique, as long as it isn't condescending.****
> 
> ...



Ok..... here is a PERFECT example of what I'm talking about! Maybe condescending isn't THE word I meant. Perhaps I should have used "sarcastic" or "snide" instead. Like I said, sometimes, words mean different things to different folks!


----------



## Firemajic (Aug 16, 2017)

Nellie said:


> Ok..... here is a PERFECT example of what I'm talking about! Maybe condescending isn't THE word I meant. Perhaps I should have used "sarcastic" or "snide" instead. Like I said, sometimes, words mean different things to different folks!




EXACTLY.... but still... maybe the comments were not meant to sound snide, sarcastic, rude, disrespectful ect.... maybe that is YOUR perception... sometimes it is hard to tell, as we do not have the advantage of "Seeing" the other person's attitude and demeanor through body language....


----------



## Nellie (Aug 16, 2017)

Firemajic said:


> EXACTLY.... but still... maybe the comments were not meant to sound snide, sarcastic, rude, disrespectful ect.... maybe that is YOUR perception... sometimes it is hard to tell, as we do not have the advantage of "Seeing" the other person's attitude and demeanor through body language....



Maybe? or EXACTLY?  You obviously missed THE point.


----------



## Darkkin (Aug 16, 2017)

Critique is observation and opinion.  It is not law; if it doesn't sync for the writer, be it tone, content, or whatnot, say thank you and move on...Like black pepper everyones' tolerance and preferences levels are a bit different.


----------



## Firemajic (Aug 16, 2017)

Nellie said:


> Maybe? or EXACTLY?  You obviously missed THE point.




Sorry... I am sorry I missed your point, because the reason behind this entire discussion is for everyone to understand what is actually being said in critiques and comments, what the intent is, behind the critiques...


----------



## sas (Aug 16, 2017)

Actually, more can be understood about a person's meaning by their body language than words. I can say, "Hate you" to someone with a smile & a wink. Totally different meaning will be understood than if written. Of course, that is why the emoji symbols were invented. We now talk face to face, much less. Pity.


----------



## Firemajic (Aug 16, 2017)

Firemajic said:


> Nellie said:
> 
> 
> > If meaning isn't coming across as the writer intended and readers offer suggestions to clarify it, fine. But still, sometimes different words mean different things  to different folks across the ocean.
> ...


----------



## Darkkin (Aug 16, 2017)

Almost 90% of communication is nonverbal....  It is why a reader's perceptions and observations are shaped by their individual circumstances.  There will be parallels and there will be points of divergence.  It is also why writers need to take replies with a grain of salt and know how to differentiate between true critique and a simple, negative opinion. 

 True critique is never personal, it is objective to the material and because of the fourth wall, the writer is a moot point.  Does a writer have a right to defend their work?  Yes!  It gives the reader a critical why as to the writer's intentions when it might not be readily apparent.  As I've said before, good writing is defensible.  Invested writers have an answer to possible whys and it benefits both the reader and the writer.

A reader should not be at fault for daring to ask a question.  It is how readers become conscious writers.

- D. the T.


----------



## Nellie (Aug 16, 2017)

Darkkin said:


> Almost 90% of communication is nonverbal....  It is why a reader's perceptions and observations are shaped by their individual circumstances.  There will be parallels and there will be points of divergence.  It is also why writers need to take replies with a grain of salt and know how to differentiate between true critique and a simple, negative opinion.



Thanks, Darkkin. You do have a superb way of explaining what I'm trying to say. I've learned to take some replies with a grain of salt.



			
				Darkkin said:
			
		

> True critique is never personal, it is objective to the material and because of the fourth wall, the writer is a moot point.  Does a writer have a right to defend their work?  Yes!


Thanks! 



			
				Darkkin said:
			
		

> It gives the reader a critical why as to the writer's intentions when it might not be readily apparent.  As I've said before, good writing is defensible.  Invested writers have an answer to possible whys and it benefits both the reader and the writer.
> 
> A reader should not be at fault for daring to ask a question.  It is how readers become conscious writers.
> 
> - D. the T.



:encouragement:


----------



## Firemajic (Aug 16, 2017)

My intent for opening this discussion, was to open a dialogue about critiques, to discuss what a critique is, how to read a critique, how to understand a critique, how to give a critique and how to respond to a critique. I feel restrained in the poetry thread, I feel as if real, constructive critiques are not welcome by some. When I offer a critique, it is not just for the poet whose work I am critiquing, it is for everyone to learn from, maybe even for the guests who are not members, but who still write poetry, maybe they are too shy to become a member...anyway, when I read a good critique, I learn from it, regardless who it was meant for... and I am here to learn. The poetry thread should be these things:
1: A learning opportunity
2:A teaching opportunity
3: A Respectful exchange of creative thoughts and ideas about the work posted.
4: A place to read fabulous poetry, submitted by our friends and peers 

If you do not want your work critiqued, why not add a footnote, explaining that you do not wish to receive ANY comments.. 
I do not want to waste my time and energy, offering my thoughts and POV, only to find that I have pissed someone off... I do not want people lashing out at me and trying to embarrass me, because I suggest a different way to say something... it is not personal, until YOU make it PERSONAL  MY opinions are not worth anything unless YOU decide they are ... if YOU find value in my POV.. fabulous!!! If NOT.... ignore it, or be a respectful adult and say "THANK YOU".... 
However, those of you who are passionate about poetry, who welcome comments, critiques and suggestions... well, hallelujah! Lets write some poetry and have some fun!!


----------



## Chesters Daughter (Aug 16, 2017)

Extremely well said, Jul, every point. You consistently go above and beyond in your mentoring, and I find your critique to be thorough and well thought out. I think some forget how much time and effort goes into offering decent crit. It irks me when someone takes the time to offer honest evaluations only to be met with hostility, or even worse, is not acknowledged at all. You've been doing an exceptional job across the board, including creating threads such as this. Your dedication to our poets is a delight to behold. Thank you for all that you do for everyone.

There is one point that I do not agree with regarding people posting on the Poetry board with a request that readers refrain from offering comment. The purpose of the Poetry board is to receive critique, we warn posters in bold text that work posted there is critiqued. One would not post fiction on a Poetry board or vice versa because it would not belong there, so if one does not want critique, why post on a board that is reserved for critique. Slots on the first page are a precious commodity, the pieces posted there are in the limelight. It is unfair for someone seeking critique to be pushed down on, or if they occupy the last slot, pushed off of, page one for someone who just wants their work read and readers to remain mum. If a poster is not seeking critique, they may post their work in Tavern Poetry or start a blog because boards meant for critique are just that and should not be misused.


----------



## Firemajic (Aug 16, 2017)

*The GOOD, The BAD, And the UGLY*

We have discussed the bad critique, and we have discussed the ugly critique, but what about the GOOD... 
We all know as writers, we crave the sincere praise of our peers , it feels GOOD.. we feel respected, valued, talented, special... and that is a fabulous thing, so do not cheapen the effect, when you give a positive critique.. do not say: Nice work, or I liked your poem.  Put some thought into your positive comments, tell the poet what you loved about their poem, was it the imagery? Explain WHY the imagery worked for you, maybe there was a stanza that really spoke to you, tell the poet why it worked, be specific. Don't forget about the title, did the title hook you in and make you want to read, if so.. why? [ I tend to forget about the title...]
Put some effort into your comments, Most of the poets here have worked HARD, studied, participated in workshops, paid attention to the critiques they have been given, listened and learned.. so, let the poet know that you enjoyed their work... YOU do NOT have to have special credentials to compliment someone... The poetry thread is a special place, a place where we have the freedom to be creative, and we have the luxury of valuable critiques, comments and mentoring... Poets ROCK!!


----------



## Pete_C (Aug 17, 2017)

Maybe I'm out of touch with human nature, but what I don't understand is the mentality of some people. I joined here because I've always been involved with writer's groups and workshops, but constraints of time and location didn't make it possible to regularly be involved.

it's pretty obvious that the core of many of the sections is critique and workshopping, so when people sign up they must pretty much now what the point of things are. So we can assure ourselves that they want to be involved in a community where workshopping is key, and they know that if they post in certain forum sections there's going to be critique. Fair enough!

so they right a poem and post it up. Why? Given what we've established they must want to workshop it. However, it transpires that they don't want critique because they think it's perfect and anyone who doesn't think so is simply being rude or cruel. Now, if I wrote something that I thought was perfect I'd try to get it published, or do something else with it. I certainly wouldn't ask for feedback if I was certain in myself that it was above criticism.

So why do they decide to cast their pearls before swine? 

It it might be harsh to say the only reason is to reap adulation and build their ego. However, their attitude also impacts on other writers who want critique and workshopping. If enough petulant writers throw enough tantrums then people will shy away from offering critique and workshopping. Along comes a writer who wants to improve, who realises that you never stop learning, who is willing to listen to all opinions and accept advice, and they don't get all the feedback they might have.

People can whinge about critiques being hard or leaving them feel hurt, but what about the other writers who are being cheated out of good high level workshopping because of the attitudes of those seeking only praise. To me, that's the offensive part!


----------



## CatWolf (Aug 17, 2017)

I do wonder, however, about all the deletions from the parties involved on both sides.  May I suggest without the full story, we should not cast aspersions upon one party without knowledge.  Isn't there too much of that abhorrent and rash judgement and self-indulgent behavior running amok in this Country and the World now?  I'll toss in one of my favorite quote from Yeats in "The Second Coming."  "The best lack all conviction while the worst are filled with passionate intensity."  I did not break the structure correctly but the idea is there.  Vitriol is unbecoming at best and those with opinions and no involvement, well, I am disappointed.  Who am I, well, I am less than nobody.  Someone far greater took the "nobody" spot.


----------



## Firemajic (Aug 17, 2017)

CatWolf said:


> I do wonder, however, about all the deletions from the parties involved on both sides.  May I suggest without the full story, we should not cast aspersions upon one party without knowledge.  Isn't there too much of that abhorrent and rash judgement and self-indulgent behavior running amok in this Country and the World now?  I'll toss in one of my favorite quote from Yeats in "The Second Coming."  "The best lack all conviction while the worst are filled with passionate intensity."  I did not break the structure correctly but the idea is there.  Vitriol is unbecoming at best and those with opinions and no involvement, well, I am disappointed.  Who am I, well, I am less than nobody.  Someone far greater took the "nobody" spot.




Hello, CatWolf, thank you for sharing your opinion... There is no "Side" no this "Party or that "party"... and really, there is no story.... this is a discussion about critique, a discussion about how critique is not a personal attack, and not a malicious act perpetrated against the poets... and everyone SHOULD care about the quality of the comments and critiques given in the poetry thread, without constructive critiques there is no opportunity for growth--- if we are not working to improve our skill... what are we doing here???


----------



## CatWolf (Aug 17, 2017)

You bet!  Constructive is key!


----------



## Nellie (Aug 17, 2017)

CatWolf said:


> You bet!  Constructive is key!




You're right. Constructive critique is the key!


----------



## Firemajic (Aug 17, 2017)

CatWolf said:


> You bet!  Constructive is key!





Nellie said:


> You're right. Constructive critique is the key!




The critiques HAVE been constructive... if you disagree, please point out the offending critique via a PM to staff or use your report button... maybe our idea of "constructive" is not in sync...


----------



## Darren White (Aug 18, 2017)

Poets rock most certainly!

I'll talk about myself, to make it less general and more personal.

Everyone has a style of critiquing, no doubt about it, and also everyone is prone to certain moods, at least I am. 
I put up my poems, in whatever forumpart for critique. Because I feel that the poems I put there are lacking.... something....
Some days I am able to work my way through the critique, and improve my poems, other days I am not doing well and I get confused and end up tangled in my poem and see no way out.
And then there are the days I am simply sleepy and grumpy, and take everything that is said the wrong way.

That is why I have decided to step back when I feel I am starting to understand critique given as way too personal. Sleep on it a night, look at it the next day.

Because indeed, critique given is given to IMPROVE, not to belittle, and I am grateful to everyone taking the time to read my poems and even leave comments for me that help me move forward.


----------



## Firemajic (Aug 18, 2017)

I love WF. Before I became a member, a few years ago, I was writing my poems and hiding them in a drawer. Then I found WF, and I was fortunate to have some fabulous mentors: Chester's Daughter, Gumby, Candid Petunia, Toddm, rcallaci, Bachelorette Squalid Glass...  Through their critiques and mentoring I not only improved, but I gained confidence and knowledge... If not for the poets here, at WF, I would not be who I am today... As a mentor, I want you to have the same experience that I have had, I want you to be excited to log in, I want you to be nurtured as a poet, I want you to be heard, understood, inspired and uplifted... not beat down, stepped on and hurt... my objective with this thread, was to make sure each poet was receiving everything they needed to grow, improve and stay passionate about their writing. If we do not check in with our poets, we will not know if their needs are being met. It seems that through this conversation, some STILL feel like I am on some kind of vendetta or crusade... There is NO NEED for any more nasty PM's... You may rest assured that I will NEVER comment on your work again. For those who want more than a pat on the back... I am here for YOU... if you are not getting what you need, please let me or any of our fabulous mentors know, we are here to help...
Earlier in this post, I mentioned my first mentors, here at WF... I would like to say that each of you, in the poetry thread are mentors... every time you critique a poem, offer advice and encouragement... you are mentoring.. so thank you, DarKKin, Jenthepen, Midnightpoet, Olly, sas and everyone who inspires me every day, through your dedication to poetry, I am still learning and growing, and THAT is a fabulous thing


----------



## Nellie (Aug 18, 2017)

Darren White said:


> I'll talk about myself, to make it less general and more personal.
> 
> Everyone has a style of critiquing, no doubt about it, and also everyone is prone to certain moods, at least I am.
> I put up my poems, in whatever forumpart for critique. Because I feel that the poems I put there are lacking.... something....
> ...



I fully agree. This is all I've been trying to put down on paper.... sometimes finding the correct word(s) is difficult for me, so thank you for expressing what _I've _been trying to say!! Some days I am totally confused and end up tangled in the poem I'm trying to create. Some words I choose may not be the word(s) others choose. I may take it the wrong way, but it is not meant to be dismissed.


----------



## Chesters Daughter (Aug 18, 2017)

Jul, please PM me regarding the nasty PM's you're being sent. 

*@Everyone. Just as on the boards, abuse, even via PM, will not be tolerated. If you receive any PM which makes you uncomfortable because it's abusive or harassing in any aspect, please report it immediately. We do not take kindly to members being badgered anywhere on the site. You are protected privately as well as publicly, but we need you to inform us when it comes to areas we cannot see. To anyone sending suspect PM's, may I suggest an immediate cessation. If you're found out, you will be moderated accordingly. Thank you.*

On a much happier note, those following this thread may recall Pete describing the good old days. As Jul now mentors, and with such finesse, and mentioned me as one of her mentors, I feel it should be known that Pete was one of mine, along with Baron, dannyboy, Olly, and a few others who are dear to my heart but are no longer active. I knew nothing when I came here, and I mean nothing. Ugh, my "work" was deplorable. Thanks to the mentoring I received, I was able to eventually help others, and they in turn are now helping more folks. It's a lovely domino effect I've always been extremely fond of. What we teach budding poets today will continue to assist budding poets of tomorrow through the passing down of knowledge. It's a legacy that will ensure the art of Poetry will exist in perpetuity. Sincerest of thanks to everyone who takes the time to stoke the flames of future brilliance.


----------



## Nellie (Aug 18, 2017)

Chester's Daughter said:


> On a much happier note, those following this thread may recall Pete describing the good old days. As Jul now mentors, and with such finesse, and mentioned me as one of her mentors, I feel it should be known that Pete was one of mine, along with Baron, dannyboy, Olly, and a few others who are dear to my heart but are no longer active. I knew nothing when I came here, and I mean nothing. Ugh, my "work" was deplorable. Thanks to the mentoring I received, I was able to eventually help others, and they in turn are now helping more folks. It's a lovely domino effect I've always been extremely fond of. What we teach budding poets today will continue to assist budding poets of tomorrow through the passing down of knowledge. It's a legacy that will ensure the art of Poetry will exist in perpetuity. Sincerest of thanks to everyone who takes the time to stoke the flames of future brilliance.



When I joined WF, Baron was still here. As was dannyboy, Olly, and Silvermoon.  I was invited by Silvermoon, whom I've known many years through another forum--Writer's Cafe in Coping with Epilepsy.  She was my mentor and encouraged me and several others to join this forum. I was very reluctant in the beginning, but with Laurie's ability to inspire others, I joined. She is the one person that saw the ability in me, despite my damaged brain, that I could improve my writing, overcoming my "aphasia".  Words can be encouraging or discouraging. Sometimes words freeze the brain, or put it on hold for a bit. Laurie isn't a "mentor" as such, but she is _my_ mentor as I'm sure she has been to many others. Thanks!


----------



## Firemajic (Aug 18, 2017)

astroannie.... another fabulous mentor... and Musichal... we have had some of the BEST...


----------



## Darren White (Aug 18, 2017)

Astroannie is the one who 'dragged' me over here from "nuther site"


----------



## Nellie (Aug 18, 2017)

Firemajic said:


> . and Musichal... we have had some of the BEST...



Hmmm..... where has he been?


----------



## Firemajic (Sep 4, 2017)

As a mentor, when I critique a poem, it serves 2 purposes, one purpose is to give information to the writer.. a different POV... just that, nothing personal... the second purpose is for me to receive information from the writer... and the way a writer responds to a critique says so much about the writer.....


----------



## Ariel (Sep 5, 2017)

Critique should be capable of informing other readers/listeners as well. I'm always learning something from critiques given to other people.


----------

