# Making a Decision on How to Publish



## Taylor (Oct 22, 2021)

Drum roll, please...   I have decided to self-publish.  

After researching and compiling a list of worthy agents, preparing a suitable query letter, and devising a system to track emails and responses, I had all intentions of attempting the traditional route first.  And then I thought about the long wait period, all the rejections, and if I am so lucky to get a deal, what changes would be expected.  Looking back at the Facebook post to friends announcing my writing of, "THE END," I re-read the 65 comments, each one expressing eagerness to read the book.  I thought about the last few luncheons with friends, recalling the wide-eyed expressions of interest, and the, "When can I read it?"  It occurred to me, I've already accomplished what I set out to do.  Write a book that people want to read.  I resolved my new goal would be to get the book out to those people as soon as possible.  The 4-6 months for SP is a lot more appealing than 18-24 and maybe not at all for TP. Hence my decision to self-publish.

That being said, there are still two routes to go.   One can go it alone, or work with a publishing service.  I am considering working with FriesenPress Inc.  They take your book from manuscript to published providing all services such as evaluation, editing, copyright, registration, cover design, interior design, etc.  FriesenPress does not retain any rights or take a royalty unless your book is sold on their own site.  As a 100% employee-owned company, they are a division of Friesens Corporation which is Canada's largest printer of hardcover books.  While offering all printing options including print on demand, they use 50lb paper which is heavier than most, and have prenegotiated a better royalty rate with Amazon. You get to use the FriesenPress imprint, which apparently provides some quality assurance as the book has been vetted by professionals.  And - they claim that they have a network of 50 retailers who regularly shop their site.

What are your thoughts about going it alone or using a publishing service?


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## Foxee (Oct 22, 2021)

This has been on my mind as well. I'm bookmarking this thread and hoping for a good discussion.


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## VRanger (Oct 22, 2021)

Just dig as deeply as you can into Friesen and make sure they're not a polished-up vanity press. 1907 is no longer than lots of vanity presses have been around. They have "Jess Dory" highlighted as a success story. Jess Dory wrote a book six years ago published through Friesen. It has a lower sales rank than my first novel (which I essentially do not market or push in any way), so Friesen has not helped her all that much. Further, she has a blog from six years ago discussing working on Book 2 of her Isle series ... as yet to see the light of day. Did she lose interest in writing, or become disappointed in her experience? It would be helpful to know.

If they give you a price for these services, I'd be interested to know it.


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## Taylor (Oct 22, 2021)

vranger said:


> Just dig as deeply as you can into Friesen and make sure they're not a polished-up vanity press. 1907 is no longer than lots of vanity presses have been around. They have "Jess Dory" highlighted as a success story. Jess Dory wrote a book six years ago published through Friesen. It has a lower sales rank than my first novel (which I essentially do not market or push in any way), so Friesen has not helped her all that much. Further, she has a blog from six years ago discussing working on Book 2 of her Isle series ... as yet to see the light of day. Did she lose interest in writing, or become disappointed in her experience? It would be helpful to know.
> 
> If they give you a price for these services, I'd be interested to know it.



Great Response!  Thanks for knowing what to look for and digging a little deeper. Can you elaborate on the perils of a vanity press?  I know the term was coined to mean people publishing for vanity because they couldn't be published otherwise.

Where did you see Jess Dory highlighted and the sales ranking?

Here is a link to the packages:









						Publishing is a Journey | FriesenPress
					


FriesenPress publishing paths include the team and services you need to professionally publish your own paperbacks, hardcovers, and eBooks.





					www.friesenpress.com


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## VRanger (Oct 22, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Great Response!  Thanks for knowing what to look for and digging a little deeper. Can you elaborate on the perils of a vanity press?  I know the term was coined to mean people publishing for vanity because they couldn't be published otherwise.
> 
> Where did you see Jess Dory highlighted and the sales ranking?
> 
> ...


She's at the bottom of their page, so I just looked over on Amazon. Notice on Friesen it says "Isle _series_". Well, the series is one book, which I typically do not consider to be a series. I would hope they can point to a better example.

I looked at their packages, and I smell Vanity Press like I'm downwind from a paper mill.

So you've got a 100K word novel? Did you notice their price is only up to 75K words? The editorial evaluation is another 7 cents a word over 75K, so they're going to pop you for another $1750 right there. That's just to tell you if they think you should publish, and considering the price of the package and the other tacked on charges, good luck having them tell you to not pay more. ;-)

Copy Editing at 2 cents word over 75K. There goes another $500. Proofreading at 1.3 cents ... why Proofreading and Copy Editing are two different charges, they'd have to explain to me. I do it in one pass.

Also, bear this in mind. You can find independent editors who will both do evaluations (I had one done of Bone Kien for $75, and learned nothing from it anyway LOL) and copy editing, and will send you samples of their work first. You go into this kind of deal, you're blind ... no idea who the editor will be or if they're any good ... or how much experience they have (a separate issue from how good).

I'm about to link a page of comments about them. One of the authors liked his experience. Says he "sold well". His sales rank is THREE MILLION below Bone Kien, which I don't promote in any way.









						FriesenPress - lied to by sales staff
					


I signed up for Book and e-Book was told by sales staff that the Royalty on e-Book was 50%.Later told by Book Production Manager that the e-Book was 30%. There was no contract written to prove the e-Book's Royalty. I canceled the e-Book still have not received the money for that cancellation it...





					www.complaintsboard.com
				




I'm sort of turning out to be relieved you posted this! One option is to discuss a cover with SigmaDog, and I'll PM you shortly for other discussion.


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## Taylor (Oct 22, 2021)

vranger said:


> She's at the bottom of their page, so I just looked over on Amazon. Notice on Friesen it says "Isle _series_". Well, the series is one book, which I typically do not consider to be a series. I would hope they can point to a better example.
> 
> I looked at their packages, and I smell Vanity Press like I'm downwind from a paper mill.
> 
> ...


Ok sounds great, but you still have not explained what the negativity is to a vanity press, and where do you find the sales ranking?


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## VRanger (Oct 22, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Ok sounds great, but you still have not explained what the negativity is to a vanity press, and where do you find the sales ranking?


Sorry about that. The negative part of a Vanity Press is people pay them money with expectations which are never realized. Often a Vanity Press will pretend to act like a real publisher, but a real publisher NEVER charges for these kinds of services. They only take on properties they believe they can profit from, and when they do, they take on the overhead. The overhead is getting a contract done, editing, working with the author, proofreading, often an advance, cover art, preparing the product for press, printing, marketing, sales and distribution, and accounting of royalties. The author doesn't pay for any of that. The author writes and collects checks, be they large, or miniscule.

If I'd looked at a couple of Freisen authors and seen positive sales (you just find the book on Amazon and scroll down until you see the sales rank), I might have thought these guys went the extra mile to assist in promotion. Clearly, they do not.

And this may be a point of logic in their claim to be in catalogs. Maybe they are. But if you're a buyer for a store or a chain, which are you going to invest in? A book a Trad publisher had enough confidence in to pick up all that overhead, or a book by someone whose only reason for being there is they paid a vanity press. Slam dunk on that one.


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## Taylor (Oct 22, 2021)

vranger said:


> Sorry about that. The negative part of a Vanity Press is people pay them money with expectations which are never realized. Often a Vanity Press will pretend to act like a real publisher, but a real publisher NEVER charges for these kinds of services. They only take on properties they believe they can profit from, and when they do, they take on the overhead. The overhead is getting a contract done, editing, working with the author, proofreading, often an advance, cover art, preparing the product for press, printing, marketing, sales and distribution, and accounting of royalties. The author doesn't pay for any of that. The author writes and collects checks, be they large, or miniscule.
> 
> If I'd looked at a couple of Freisen authors and seen positive sales (you just find the book on Amazon and scroll down until you see the sales rank), I might have thought these guys went the extra mile to assist in promotion. Clearly, they do not.
> 
> And this may be a point of logic in their claim to be in catalogs. Maybe they are. But if you're a buyer for a store or a chain, which are you going to invest in? A book a Trad publisher had enough confidence in to pick up all that overhead, or a book by someone whose only reason for being there is they paid a vanity press. Slam dunk on that one.


I understand that a real publisher never charges for these kinds of services, but the point is if you choose this route you don't have a book deal, so no one is going to cover those costs for you.  Perhaps they do mark them up, but the prices of the basic package aren't outrageous. However, if one wished to do it themselves, they may save a few thousand.  In all fairness to FriesenPress, the conversations I have had with the salesperson, have never been misleading, so my expectations would be that they deliver the service they offer, period.  If people are getting hyped out by sales pitches, they are only to blame.

I checked Amazon and I can see your ranking (btw, congratulations) under "See all details," but I don't see it for the other author Jim Bennett.  Perhaps, as a reviewer, you have greater access?


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## VRanger (Oct 22, 2021)

Taylor said:


> I understand that a real publisher never charges for these kinds of services, but the point is if you choose this route you don't have a book deal, so no one is going to cover those costs for you.


No, no one is, but that doesn't mean you have to pay exorbitant rates and then wind up with the level of dissatisfaction expressed by the customers on that page.  You can get the same services, more competently performed, with better control, for a lot less out of pocket, and if you want to do that, I'll be happy to help you find the right places, or put you in contact with other self-published authors who use those services. Those rates are high compared to _lower _rates I refuse to pay. LOL



Taylor said:


> Perhaps they do mark them up, but the prices of the basic package aren't outrageous. However, if one wished to do it themselves, they may save a few thousand.  In all fairness to FriesenPress, the conversations I have had with the salesperson, have never been misleading, so my expectations would be that they deliver the service they offer, period.  If people are getting hyped out by sales pitches, they are only to blame.


Just remember, that package price isn't the price. Your extra words are only the FIRST upsell you'll experience. Read the comment the lady left about her cover. Hundreds more. And poor Jim Bennet's cover looks like crap. I could find a stock picture of an iceberg and drop a scope graphic over it in about 10 minutes, and that's all that cover is. The title and author lettering is embarrassing. No imagination at all.

What disgusted me most were the people who explained that after they paid all that, Friesen's editors INTRODUCED errors that weren't in the original manuscript. Unforgivable.

And did you notice the time frames involved ... even in books that weren't ready yet? More than a year? Still waiting? 


Taylor said:


> I checked Amazon and I can see your ranking (btw, congratulations) under "See all details," but I don't see it for the other author Jim Bennett.  Perhaps, as a reviewer, you have greater access?


You have to go to his book and scroll down from there. It was 5 million plus. 5 million plus means he's selling one copy about every two to three years.


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## Taylor (Oct 22, 2021)

vranger said:


> No, no one is, but that doesn't mean you have to pay exorbitant rates and then wind up with the level of dissatisfaction expressed by the customers on that page.  You can get the same services, more competently performed, with better control, for a lot less out of pocket, and if you want to do that, I'll be happy to help you find the right places, or put you in contact with other self-published authors who use those services. Those rates are high compared to _lower _rates I refuse to pay. LOL
> 
> 
> Just remember, that package price isn't the price. Your extra words are only the FIRST upsell you'll experience. Read the comment the lady left about her cover. Hundreds more. And poor Jim Bennet's cover looks like crap. I could find a stock picture of an iceberg and drop a scope graphic over it in about 10 minutes, and that's all that cover is. The title and author lettering is embarrassing. No imagination at all.
> ...



All good information...thanks @vranger. You have given me a lot to think about!  

I have been checking rankings now, for all my friends who have published and for other self-published authors I like.   What a great resource...thanks for pointing that out!


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## Taylor (Oct 28, 2021)

Just a follow-up on this issue.  I'm not advocating for using a publishing service, just sharing my findings with others, who may be on the same information-gathering path.

I had a follow-up call with the fellow from FriesenPress.  I shared the above review link with him.  He said that the link had been going around for some time and that he felt it may be driven by his competitors.  He directed me to the Google Reviews that were 179 and were primarily positive with a cumulative rating of five stars. 

He also said that FreisenPress is NOT a vanity press, as a vanity press keeps the rights to the material.  Friesen does not retain any rights, thereby they are considered a service. 

He indicated that if you go to any online retailer and put in "FriesenPress" it will bring up any books they have published.  I did the search and found several on the Chapters/Indigo site, but none on Barnes and Noble.  Curious to know if anyone has experience with getting listed with major online retailers. 

I asked him to give me a quotation with all of the extra charges I might incur, including the excess in word count from the basic package.  It was more than double.

The other thing he pointed out was the use of the FriesenPress Imprint.  One question I still have is, does it help to have a publisher's imprint or Trade Mark?  I noticed a bestselling self-published author has what appears to have created her own publishing imprint by registering an LLC as a publisher.


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## VRanger (Oct 28, 2021)

Well, _that _was a pack of lies he told you.

They can get as many good ratings as they want hiring pay services who do that (or Fivver), and NO ONE is paying various services to trash Freisen Press in a review chain, or loading them up with insider posts by a competitor's employees. That nonsense about "vanity presses keep the rights to the material" was the BIGGEST bald-faced lie of the bunch. A REAL publisher keeps rights to work for a contracted period of time, because if they're going to put out all that overhead, they deserve the right to be the sole supplier of the property. A vanity press has no overhead on a property. The author is paying them to do EVERYTHING, just like you'd be paying Freisen Press to do everything.

Vanity Press, and with ridiculously high rates. Every vanity press is 'services', but I prefer the term leeches (or worse).

Excuse my French, but I hate and detest fucking lying salesmen.


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## Taylor (Oct 28, 2021)

vranger said:


> Well, _that _was a pack of lies he told you.
> 
> They can get as many good ratings as they want hiring pay services who do that (or Fivver), and NO ONE is paying various services to trash Freisen Press in a review chain, or loading them up with insider posts by a competitor's employees. That nonsense about "vanity presses keep the rights to the material" was the BIGGEST bald-faced lie of the bunch. A REAL publisher keeps rights to work for a contracted period of time, because if they're going to put out all that overhead, they deserve the right to be the sole supplier of the property. A vanity press has no overhead on a property. The author is paying them to do EVERYTHING, just like you'd be paying Freisen Press to do everything.
> 
> ...


Tell us how you really feel...lol!

Do you know anything about the reason some self-published authors register an LLC as a publisher?  Could that be for tax purposes?


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## VRanger (Oct 28, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Tell us how you really feel...lol!


A few years ago, I had a time-share salesman tell me that we needed his "points based" property group because it was getting almost impossible to arrange exchanges through RCI anymore. I've been doing RCI exchanges for 30+ years with no issue, and we were at his resort ... on an RCI exchange. I told him to give me a minute, pulled out my phone ... I have RCI in contacts ... and called them. I spoke to a Rep and relayed his concerns, and asked her if they were having ANY problems making exchanges or anticipated any. She said she didn't know why anyone would make such statements ... the answer to both was No. She was a customer service rep, this guy was a salesman.

I thanked her, ended the call, looked up at him and said, "The lady I just talked to at RCI says you're a liar". He wasn't happy, but he knew right away how I feel about lying salesmen. That was the end of his sales pitch, by the way.

I genuinely am a nice guy, but if someone acts like an ass, lies to me, or tries to scam me, I change that face without delay.


Taylor said:


> Do you know anything about the reason some self-published authors register an LLC as a publisher?  Could that be for tax purposes?


I think you scoped that out in "one".  My guess would be to take royalties as dividends rather than income and sidestep FICA. Plus, if you pay all deductible expenses out of the LLC account (if you can LOL)--and this you're going to know far better than me--it keeps the accounting more organized and avoids issues of co-mingling.


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## Taylor (Oct 28, 2021)

vranger said:


> A few years ago, I had a time-share salesman tell me that we needed his "points based" property group because it was getting almost impossible to arrange exchanges through RCI anymore. I've been doing RCI exchanges for 30+ years with no issue, and we were at his resort ... on an RCI exchange. I told him to give me a minute, pulled out my phone ... I have RCI in contacts ... and called them. I spoke to a Rep and relayed his concerns, and asked her if they were having ANY problems making exchanges or anticipated any. She said she didn't know why anyone would make such statements ... the answer to both was No. She was a customer service rep, this guy was a salesman.
> 
> I thanked her, ended the call, looked up at him and said, "The lady I just talked to at RCI says you're a liar". He wasn't happy, but he knew right away how I feel about lying salesmen. That was the end of his sales pitch, by the way.
> 
> I genuinely am a nice guy, but if someone acts like an ass, lies to me, or tries to scam me, I change that face without delay.


Understandable.  That's why it's always good to get a second unbiased opinion.


vranger said:


> I think you scoped that out in "one".  My guess would be to take royalties as dividends rather than income and sidestep FICA. Plus, if you pay all deductible expenses out of the LLC account (if you can LOL)--and this you're going to know far better than me--it keeps the accounting more organized and avoids issues of co-mingling.



Sounds like there are some liability issues as well.  I found this:








						When Should Writers Incorporate or Create an LLC?
					


When should writers incorporate or create an LLC? Do they protect writers from liability? Are there tax benefits? We answer these questions here.





					www.writersdigest.com
				




It costs about $550 in Canada to register an LLC.   I do use brand names...that's a concern.  I've had experience with trademark infringement in another world. Limited Liability has a value.


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## VRanger (Oct 28, 2021)

Taylor said:


> I do use brand names...that's a concern.  I've had experience with trademark infringement in another world. Limited Liability has a value.


I recently researched the issue of brand names, business names, and real people's names. Consensus seems to indicate that if you do not disparage the named entity, you don't have any worries. Conversely, I'm almost tempted to contact the advertising department at the hotel/casino I'm using in our collab and ask if they'd like to pay for product placement. LOL

You just wouldn't want something like "My characters got Legionnaire's Disease at the downtown Atlanta Marriot.


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## Taylor (Oct 28, 2021)

vranger said:


> I recently researched the issue of brand names, business names, and real people's names. Consensus seems to indicate that if you do not disparage the named entity, you don't have any worries. Conversely,


Yes, that is a common understanding based on generalities in the past, but when it comes to the law, it can be more black and white.  Any company at any time can choose to follow the letter of the law and take action.  There is a risk, one has to weigh what the stakes are, and it would be unique to each author, i.e. what have you got to lose?  For myself, I would be willing to lose the proceeds of the book, but not my personal assets.  That degree of separation with an LLC is a worthy consideration.



vranger said:


> I'm almost tempted to contact the advertising department at the hotel/casino I'm using in our collab and ask if they'd like to pay for product placement. LOL


Have you heard the story of the Hotel California and the Eagles cover?    The photographer received a cease and desist for using the Beverly Hills Hotel until the hotel's bookings sored. 



vranger said:


> You just wouldn't want something like "My characters got Legionnaire's Disease at the downtown Atlanta Marriot.


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## VRanger (Oct 28, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Yes, that is a common understanding based on generalities in the past, but when it comes to the law, it can be more black and white.  Any company at any time can choose to follow the letter of the law and take action.  There is a risk, one has to weigh what the stakes are, and it would be unique to each author, i.e. what have you got to lose?  For myself, I would be willing to lose the proceeds of the book, but not my personal assets.  That degree of separation with an LLC is a worthy consideration.


Once they get to court, they have to prove damages.

Trademark does not apply, since the author who casually mentions a brand is not using it in "In Commerce" ... unless they were to use the trademark in the book's title. Copyright does not apply, since a brief mention is allowed under "Fair Use". Defamation doesn't apply, in many cases even if you made a negative remark, since odds are it is defendable as opinion ... or even truth.

Could an author receive a "Cease and Desist" letter? Sure. "Cease and Desist" is not a legal action, it's an intimidation tactic ... and in many cases it may be the first indication the attorney has already advised his client there are miniscule, if any, damages, and no way to prove them at trial. Another term for such a letter is: Bluff. ;-)

This is an entirely different area than say, putting a celebrity or business name on a hat or a shirt and selling it.

Most lawyers would refuse to take the case. They can't prove damages, and even they could, they'd be unlikely to collect a large enough damage award to even pay their own fee.


Taylor said:


> Have you heard the story of the Hotel California and the Eagles cover?    The photographer received a cease and desist for using the Beverly Hills Hotel until the hotel's bookings sored.


Sort of dovetails with my point above. Things like that were good examples that virtually ALL publicity is good publicity. That's how product placement got started in the first place. Why have a box of Cheer in your scene when you can ask Tide to pay you to put it there, instead? 

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely encourage everyone in the arts to study all the law which could apply to their pursuit and KNOW it. For anyone who doesn't, it's like starting to drive without knowing the difference between Red, Yellow, and Green on a traffic signal. I'm occasionally baffled when I see a writer ask about Copyright. The first thing I did before I published my first product in 1982 was buy a book on Copyright and learn all about it, and I refresh my memory of the rules as needed. It doesn't take long to learn about Copyright, but it's rare I run into an author who can explain when Copyright occurs, and the different levels of protection afforded by displaying or registering their Copyright. Even the old "mail yourself a copy" myth still circulates.


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## Taylor (Oct 28, 2021)

@vranger, It's great that you have so much experience in this area to share. I hope this thread is useful to others who have contemplated the legal aspects of publishing and selling a book.    Every book will fall on a spectrum of risk depending on its content, and every author will have an individual risk appetite depending on their own circumstances.  If you casually mention someone got up and poured a glass of Coke, you may be at less risk than if your character has a conversation about the branding strategy of the Coca-Cola company.  You have to assess your manuscript's risk. 

Just a few more considerations, not to be argumentative, only because I love discussing the law.    


vranger said:


> Once they get to court, they have to prove damages.


Or prove that you profited from it.  


vranger said:


> Trademark does not apply, since the author who casually mentions a brand is not using it in "In Commerce" ... unless they were to use the trademark in the book's title. Copyright does not apply, since a brief mention is allowed under "Fair Use". Defamation doesn't apply, in many cases even if you made a negative remark, since odds are it is defendable as opinion ... or even truth.


The law does provide guidelines for assessing fair use, but, determining fair use is not always easy since it is a grey area of the law.


vranger said:


> Could an author receive a "Cease and Desist" letter? Sure. "Cease and Desist" is not a legal action, it's an intimidation tactic ... and in many cases it may be the first indication the attorney has already advised his client there are miniscule, if any, damages, and no way to prove them at trial. Another term for such a letter is: Bluff. ;-)


A cease and desist is a warning letter, for example, to remove any publication from distribution, that uses their brand name or risk legal action. Not sure why you see that as a bluff.  Why would they bother?  Are you thinking they might be looking for a settlement?  Is getting a cease and desist first really the issue?  


vranger said:


> This is an entirely different area than say, putting a celebrity or business name on a hat or a shirt and selling it.
> 
> Most lawyers would refuse to take the case. They can't prove damages, and even they could, they'd be unlikely to collect a large enough damage award to even pay their own fee.


Typically large corporations with prominent brand names have in-house lawyers.  And corporate law firms often work on a per-hour charge, not a contingency.  


vranger said:


> Sort of dovetails with my point above. Things like that were good examples that virtually ALL publicity is good publicity. That's how product placement got started in the first place. Why have a box of Cheer in your scene when you can ask Tide to pay you to put it there, instead?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I absolutely encourage everyone in the arts to study all the law which could apply to their pursuit and KNOW it. For anyone who doesn't, it's like starting to drive without knowing the difference between Red, Yellow, and Green on a traffic signal. I'm occasionally baffled when I see a writer ask about Copyright. The first thing I did before I published my first product in 1982 was buy a book on Copyright and learn all about it, and I refresh my memory of the rules as needed. It doesn't take long to learn about Copyright, but it's rare I run into an author who can explain when Copyright occurs, and the different levels of protection afforded by displaying or registering their Copyright. Even the old "mail yourself a copy" myth still circulates.


Yes, and of course things change, as you mention, I'm sure the mail yourself a copy may have worked at some time. 

I think for the majority of fiction, there may be no reason to take extra measures.  However, fortunately, in this litigious world, especially in the U.S., there are plenty of safeguards to protect yourself.   It's an individual choice, for which ones suit your project and your risk appetite.


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## VRanger (Oct 28, 2021)

Taylor said:


> A cease and desist is a warning letter, for example, to remove any publication from distribution, that uses their brand name or risk legal action. Not sure why you see that as a bluff.  Why would they bother?  Are you thinking they might be looking for a settlement?  Is getting a cease and desist first really the issue?


It could be any number of things. They might want a negotiated settlement, or they might actually want the use terminated. In either case, a Cease and Desist letter has no legal force. It's merely an indication you're on their radar. It's up to the recipient to gauge whether or not they actually have any liability and whether to cooperate. The recipient might contact an attorney, who might answer the C&D letter. What's actually happening is attorneys are getting to bill for circumstances which may bear no benefit whatsoever to either client, but make plenty of money for the attorneys. LOL

And yes, getting a C&D letter instead of service of a suit could very well mean the attorney has advised there is no compliant which will stand up in court, so "we might as well try this". I've had attorneys tell me, "There's really no point in pursuing this, but I can send them a letter." ;-) Better attorneys will refuse to bluff like that, but the world is chock full of crappy attorneys.

In such a case the attorney will carefully avoid the explicit threat of a lawsuit in the letter, and instead use language like "to protect our client's interest". They'll make it sound as scary as they can without making a fraudulent claim. Even language like "If you have not complied within xx days, we will take further action" doesn't mean a lawsuit is an option. That's to worry the recipient about what the "further action" might be. It might just be another letter, or they might drop it entirely.


Taylor said:


> Yes, and of course things change, as you mention, I'm sure the mail yourself a copy may have worked at some time.


It is not an element of Copyright law, and to my knowledge, never has been. Were I to argue that in court, I'd point out the copyright claimant had no way to prove they didn't send themself an unsealed envelope, then insert anything they wanted to at any time after that and seal it at that time. At no time in history would that argument have failed to get such "evidence" ruled irrelevant.

You are legally entitled to copyright at the moment of creation of the work (under US Copyright law). After that, you need to show certain evidence you did indeed create it, as your own work, and when. There are several ways an author may achieve that, but registration is the most secure alternative, AND the only one that permits an award of statutory damages, plus attorney's fees and cost of suit.


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## Steve_Rivers (Oct 28, 2021)

I think @vranger  has given lots of great advice here. There's nothing on the technical side like that which I can add, but I would really urge caution, Taylor. Especially from looking at review scores of websites. Like vranger said, you can't trust most reviews and scores these days, because there's a thriving business out there in internet land of paying people for scores and reviews and trying to make them look as real as possible.

The best way I study ALL reviews on the internet these days is to look for ones that -don't- give 5/5 and even then list at least 1 negative about the product or service. A business most likely never pays a review service for 4/5 scores and especially ones that include a flaw in their product (although I bet even that will be offered before long to make them look real)
So don't use reviews or scores to judge FriesenPress.

I'm totally wary of ALL non-trad "publishing" services though, which is why I went through the self-pub route.

But I think the most important thing is...
Anyone here who has published a book will probably tell you the same thing - The moment you've got your first book completed the urge to just get it out there and the eagerness to get a response from actual readers is really, really, hard to resist. It can take over your thinking.

So don't rush into anything and let ideas/thoughts rest a while before making a decision. The hard work is done and your novel isn't going anywhere meanwhile.

P.S - After you posted the bit about the multiple POV ending to it a couple months ago, I'm kinda interested in reading it too, btw. So add me to the 65 comments list


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## Taylor (Oct 28, 2021)

Steve_Rivers said:


> I think @vranger  has given lots of great advice here. There's nothing on the technical side like that which I can add, but I would really urge caution, Taylor. Especially from looking at review scores of websites. Like vranger said, you can't trust most reviews and scores these days, because there's a thriving business out there in internet land of paying people for scores and reviews and trying to make them look as real as possible.
> 
> The best way I study ALL reviews on the internet these days is to look for ones that -don't- give 5/5 and even then list at least 1 negative about the product or service. A business most likely never pays a review service for 4/5 scores and especially ones that include a flaw in their product (although I bet even that will be offered before long to make them look real)
> So don't use reviews or scores to judge FriesenPress.


Good point!


Steve_Rivers said:


> I'm totally wary of ALL non-trad "publishing" services though, which is why I went through the self-pub route.
> 
> But I think the most important thing is...
> Anyone here who has published a book will probably tell you the same thing - The moment you've got your first book completed the urge to just get it out there and the eagerness to get a response from actual readers is really, really, hard to resist. It can take over your thinking.
> ...


Best advice you could have given me!  And it is exactly what is happening.  I am being pressured by my friends and network to make it available NOW. That's why a publishing service even came onto my radar because I thought it might be faster and less time-consuming.   Since then I have been more focused on the legal aspects as you can see by the development of the thread.  Because of the nature of my plot, based on a real-life crime, and because I allude to corporations and mention brand names, I need to take a serious look at potential liabilities.  The discovery of the Publishing LLC today was major.  I am extremely risk-averse and that has served me well so far in life, so I will be considering that structure.  Might be a better use of my money than upcharges on publishing services.   


Steve_Rivers said:


> P.S - After you posted the bit about the multiple POV ending to it a couple months ago, I'm kinda interested in reading it too, btw. So add me to the 65 comments list


Awe...thanks!  I would be honored to have you as a reader.  Congrats again on your first contest results!!


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## indianroads (Nov 1, 2021)

Perhaps taking a step back to define your goals would be a good idea. Traditional publishing via an agent or publisher is one route, but they are looking for something to sell, so you’ll have to write for the mass market. If that works for you, by all means go for it. If you like coloring outside the lines and are not overly concerned about profit, Amazon/ B&N might be a good choice.

So, what are your goals?


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## Ralph Rotten (Nov 1, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Drum roll, please...   I have decided to self-publish.
> 
> After researching and compiling a list of worthy agents, preparing a suitable query letter, and devising a system to track emails and responses, I had all intentions of attempting the traditional route first.  And then I thought about the long wait period, all the rejections, and if I am so lucky to get a deal, what changes would be expected.  Looking back at the Facebook post to friends announcing my writing of, "THE END," I re-read the 65 comments, each one expressing eagerness to read the book.  I thought about the last few luncheons with friends, recalling the wide-eyed expressions of interest, and the, "When can I read it?"  It occurred to me, I've already accomplished what I set out to do.  Write a book that people want to read.  I resolved my new goal would be to get the book out to those people as soon as possible.  The 4-6 months for SP is a lot more appealing than 18-24 and maybe not at all for TP. Hence my decision to self-publish.
> 
> ...



A self-pub uses a service like Friesen.
A true Indie has the skills to do all of these things themselves.

But if you do not have HTML experience, or are not so hot with photoshop, then go with the service. However, you will likely pay more for the service than your first book will yield. Also, word is that with companies like that you often have trouble contacting them. Working with them will not be as rosy as they say. Buyer beware.
In fact, here is a link to Esther Rabbit's video on her experience with one of these companies. After she posted the video, they blocked her.



Another option is to go with *Indies United*. Their link is in my signatureline. Talk with Lisa and see what they can do with you. Essentially, IUPH uses their large crowd of authors to help publisize each other.


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## Ralph Rotten (Nov 1, 2021)

Keep in mind that you can buy artwork for your cover at a number of places including DeviantArt and CanStockPhoto.com.


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## Ralph Rotten (Nov 1, 2021)

Oh, and make sure that Friesen will also build your eBook...because you will sell more eBooks than print.


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## VRanger (Nov 1, 2021)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Oh, and make sure that Friesen will also build your eBook...because you will sell more eBooks than print.


Which is something else completely useless to pay anyone for, as well as the other sketchy "services" they offer. As I mentioned above, EVERYTHING they offer is insultingly overpriced, and you get stuck with random people who may not have any more skill at editing and proofing than the author themselves. From the reviews ... there's an excellent chance to get stuck with someone incompetent.

ANYONE who has used a word processor can format a manuscript for eBook publication in an afternoon ... if they are very, very slow.


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## Taylor (Nov 1, 2021)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Keep in mind that you can buy artwork for your cover at a number of places including DeviantArt and CanStockPhoto.com.


I've already created the cover mock-up as I see it using stock photos.  My friends all think it looks great.  But, I found a professional cover designer on Fiverr whose work I like, to refine it.  I just think the professional touch is needed.  They say the cover is the number one thing that sells your book.  Whatever happened to not judging a book by its cover?


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## Ralph Rotten (Nov 1, 2021)

Throw it up there for some feedback. We have several artists in the forum, as well as authors who are good at cover design.

*Things to keep in mind with a cover:*
1) How does it look as a thumbnail? Remember, most of the time your cover will be an icon on Amazon, so it has to resolve well at 250x250.
2) Does the artwork look professional or CG? If it is the latter, then run it thru a filter in photoshop (or whichever you use.)
3) Does the text contrast enough to stand out at smaller resolutions? Sometimes you need a border, or an effect, or a custom font.
4) If it is dark, expect it to be even darker after printing.


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## Ralph Rotten (Nov 1, 2021)

vranger said:


> Which is something else completely useless to pay anyone for, as well as the other sketchy "services" they offer. As I mentioned above, EVERYTHING they offer is insultingly overpriced, and you get stuck with random people who may not have any more skill at editing and proofing than the author themselves. From the reviews ... there's an excellent chance to get stuck with someone incompetent.
> 
> ANYONE who has used a word processor can format a manuscript for eBook publication in an afternoon ... if they are very, very slow.



I agree (on the paying part). A real Indie author does it all themselves...including building their own eBook. Those services will charge you a ton o' cash.
Use Sigil to build your ebook, and it will spit out a product that will upload to any publisher (including google).* I am not a fan of uploading a word document to Amazon and letting it convert the content to eBook. That process results in a less than professional product. *


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## Ralph Rotten (Nov 1, 2021)

If you want a great preview of how working with companies like Friesen will be, watch the movie Authors Anonymous.

Actually, watch Authors Anonymous anyhow. It is funny, and the characters were snatched directly from writing forums.


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## VRanger (Nov 1, 2021)

Ralph Rotten said:


> *I am not a fan of uploading a word document to Amazon and letting it convert the content to eBook. That process results in a less than professional product. *


Must depend on what you're trying to do in your formatting. You can't really be that picky over an ebook, since once the user changes the font size most of what you've done goes out the window. So, for example, if you tried to hyphenate to have nicer looking justified lines, _that _was a waste. LOL

However, I do always wind up with a new file with separate formatting for the print version, which may also have slightly different copy, since I won't allow a small number of orphaned lines to appear at the end of a chapter. When that happens, I'll trim a small amount of copy to eliminate the orphans. And hyphenation works again.


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## Ralph Rotten (Nov 1, 2021)

I prefer to create a genuine eBook because I will be using it at sites besides Amazon.
And yes, you can tweak a book quite a bit in an actual eBook. Not just text, but images as well.


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## VRanger (Nov 1, 2021)

Ralph Rotten said:


> I prefer to create a genuine eBook because I will be using it at sites besides Amazon.
> And yes, you can tweak a book quite a bit in an actual eBook. Not just text, but images as well.


If I were working with interior images, yes, that would be different. My only image is the cover.


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## Taylor (Nov 2, 2021)

indianroads said:


> Perhaps taking a step back to define your goals would be a good idea. Traditional publishing via an agent or publisher is one route, but they are looking for something to sell, so you’ll have to write for the mass market. If that works for you, by all means go for it. If you like coloring outside the lines and are not overly concerned about profit, Amazon/ B&N might be a good choice.
> 
> So, what are your goals?


Great question!  I had to think about it.  My very first and only goal was to write a novel that had some substance.  First goal... 

Somewhere during the drafting, I started to think...yeah this might have some legs.  So for a time, I thought about finding an agent.  I even researched and prepared a list of suitable agents and set up a tracking system.  However, I'm happily retired and not looking for a third career, and after learning how long it would take, I had to rethink my objectives.  Now, I don't really have a goal per se.  I have more of what I would consider a vision.

I have a vision of a series of three books.  Each story is based on a significant change in the laws and principles that protect the world economy.   And the themes are all routed in why good people sometimes make bad decisions.  Because I don't see the world as black and white, none of my characters are heroes or villains.  Just ordinary folks who get caught up in things, how they got there, and the outcomes.  And true to real life, everyone has some sort of price to pay.  But it's not dark...I wrap all of this up with humor and relatable scenarios.

What I want most out of this project, is for people to read it, enjoy it and learn something from it.

Mass market?  Who knows?  I'll hopefully get a feel in the next few months after some feedback.

Thanks for the tip on B&N!  I did not realize they also had a self-publishing division.  Have you had any experience with it?


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## indianroads (Nov 2, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Great question!  I had to think about it.  My very first and only goal was to write a novel that had some substance.  First goal...
> 
> Somewhere during the drafting, I started to think...yeah this might have some legs.  So for a time, I thought about finding an agent.  I even researched and prepared a list of suitable agents and set up a tracking system.  However, I'm happily retired and not looking for a third career, and after learning how long it would take, I had to rethink my objectives.  Now, I don't really have a goal per se.  I have more of what I would consider a vision.
> 
> ...


We share a common world view and goal. People are neither completely good or bad - I sometimes refer to this as anti Dudley Do-Right POV. Dudley Do-Right was a cartoon that was around when I was a kid, that featured a moronic but completely good Canadian Mountie, with an utterly vacuous girlfriend (Nell) that was continually getting tied to train tracks by the arch villain Snidely Whiplash. To say the characters were 2 dimensional was a complement - but it's a decent illustration of how NOT to develop characters. Everyone believes they are doing the right thing and are the heroes of their own story.

I don't write for profit. I did well in my career and our government takes too much of what I earned already, and I don't want to give them any more to steal and squander. In a large sense I write to entertain myself, I love the process of creating the story, and the techniques used to make it work. I like sharing my creations, and I feel good when people tell me they enjoyed one of my tales. 

I put my novels on Amazon because they're the big dog in the on-line book market. In the future I'll probably look at the others, but admittedly I have more fun writing than marketing. According to what I read the top sellers are:
1. Amazon
2. Rakuten-Kobo 
3. Apple
4. Barns & Noble
5. Smashwords

Again though, profit isn't a driver in my work - if it were I would do more research about what people are buying and write those sorts of stories. Instead, I write what I would like to read. Maybe there are others out there like me that are frustrated with the milquetoast novels that are being generated these days, and I hope they find my stories.

So, for now Amazon works for me. They make getting your book up on their site easy, and give you ways to market them (admittedly, I don't know what the heck I'm doing though).

As I said, consider your goals and follow the path that leads you to them.


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## Ralph Rotten (Nov 5, 2021)

vranger said:


> If I were working with interior images, yes, that would be different. My only image is the cover.


Also, if you upload a *.doc file or PDF, it will not create a proper index for the book. Nothing smacks of amateur hour more than a book with a broken index or blue links on the 2nd page. 

With eBooks you can use high resolution pics and set them to max size, then the user has the option of double tapping the image to get a pinch-zoomable closeup. This is handy with maps, floorplans, or other complex images that the viewer may wanna scrutinize. I actually add a note at the bottom of the first graphic* that lets users know they have this option (and how to get out of it when they are ready to resume reading.) 

*I like to have a landing page with a nice graphic, that way as soon as they open the book the first time, they start with something glossy.


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## Ralph Rotten (Nov 5, 2021)

indianroads said:


> According to what I read the top sellers are:
> 1. Amazon
> 2. Rakuten-Kobo
> 3. Apple
> ...



Instead of marketing these individually, sign up with D2D, and they publish you with a dozen or so of these. Also Ingram Spark. Between those two [and Amazon] you can cover all the ground (including libraries*)

*DO NOT choose the expanded marketing option when publishing on Amazon. They just jack up your cover price to vanity book prices...simply to do what I suggested above. *Expanded marketing doption = BAD*


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## VRanger (Nov 19, 2021)

@Taylor 

Good reading from a few years ago.


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## Taylor (Nov 20, 2021)

VRanger said:


> @Taylor
> 
> Good reading from a few years ago.


Thanks, @VRanger.  I understand this backs up your position on publishing services.  

While I haven't yet decided how I will publish, I wanted to add some additional thoughts I had, in an effort to help others on the same road.



who me? said:


> you can self publish for free
> never use a vanity press


You can also clean your house for free.  Does that mean you should never hire a housekeeper?    I think this whole notion/term of a vanity press is outdated.  What these companies offer is a service, just like housekeeping.  I have spoken to a number of these third-party service providers for self-publishing and so far, no one has tricked me into thinking that I will be "traditionally published" or given me any other grandiose promises.   Yes, of course, they will try to show benefits to using their company, just like any other consumer-based company will do.  What they offer is a service to do the self-publishing legwork for you so you don't have to do it yourself.  Simple as that. 

As far as pricing, i.e. "over-priced" or "pay through the nose", etc.  What constitutes a fair price is what someone is willing to pay.  I have been quoted by a number of service providers similar fees around $5,000 -$6,000 for everything I need including retail buy-back insurance.  I made more than that in my consulting business in five days last week.  Meanwhile, my book sat idle.   

I have also spoken to people in my personal network who have used Friesen, Iunivers, etc, who had a good experience.  Could they have done it for less money...of course! Did they get scammed...no...they got what they believed they paid for.

Before anyone jumps all over me on this...please remember, I'm not a gullible idiot...lol!    Just offering another perspective.


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## indianroads (Nov 20, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Thanks, @VRanger.  I understand this backs up your position on publishing services.
> 
> While I haven't yet decided how I will publish, I wanted to add some additional thoughts I had, in an effort to help others on the same road.
> 
> ...


Before heading out on your publishing journey, first set a goal of where you want to go.

What do you want in terms of readers and monetary gains? At even a lower level, why did you write your book? If you're looking for wealth and fame, that's exceedingly rare especially on the first book you write, but in that case I suggest traditional publishing via an agent. If you wrote your novel because you loved the process, and now hope to entertain readers - I suggest Amazon.

I know some push back on that opinion is due, but Amazon works fine for me. Publishing is FREE, and you can advertise there to boost your sales. A lot of people go there to buy books; Amazon is definitely one of the larger outlets available. Yes, there are a ton of other options, but whether you should use them depends on whether you want to spend more time hawking your wares or if you'd rather write another book.


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## Taylor (Nov 20, 2021)

indianroads said:


> Before heading out on your publishing journey, first set a goal of where you want to go.
> 
> What do you want in terms of readers and monetary gains? At even a lower level, why did you write your book? If you're looking for wealth and fame, that's exceedingly rare especially on the first book you write, but in that case I suggest traditional publishing via an agent. If you wrote your novel because you loved the process, and now hope to entertain readers - I suggest Amazon.
> 
> I know some push back on that opinion is due, but Amazon works fine for me. Publishing is FREE, and you can advertise there to boost your sales. A lot of people go there to buy books; Amazon is definitely one of the larger outlets available. Yes, there are a ton of other options, but whether you should use them depends on whether you want to spend more time hawking your wares or if you'd rather write another book.


To answer your questions, the goal is to publish a product that is as polished and appealing as possible and then to get as many people to read and like it as possible.  Wealth is not an issue and neither is fame to a degree, but if so many people read it, one becomes well-known, I wouldn't count that out as a goal to shoot for. Kevin Kwan's, _Crazy Rich Asians_ was his first novel.

I understand that you can publish on Amazon through KDP, but even if you publish it first through a third party, it does not preclude you from selling on Amazon. I buy pretty much all of my books or rent them through Amazon Kindle Unlimited.  But they are not all published through KDP.  Is the advertising program only available if you publish through KDP?


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## indianroads (Nov 20, 2021)

Taylor said:


> To answer your questions, the goal is to publish a product that is as polished and appealing as possible and then to get as many people to read and like it as possible.  Wealth is not an issue and neither is fame to a degree, but if so many people read it, one becomes well-known, I wouldn't count that out as a goal to shoot for.
> 
> I understand that you can publish on Amazon through KDP, but even if you publish it first through a third party, it does not preclude you from selling on Amazon. I buy pretty much all of my books or rent them through Amazon Kindle Unlimited.  But they are not all published through KDP.  Is the advertising program only available if you publish through KDP?


That's true. You can use the ISBN you get on your own or via another service on Amazon. Amazon also has Kindle Unlimited, where we get paid by the pages people read for free. If you're looking for readers, you might also build a website for your author activities, and create pages on social networks (like FB). 

Someone once told me that the best way to draw in more readers was to write more books - a one-off author doesn't have a lot of credibility.

I'm unsure about advertising products not sold on amazon on amazon - that's a new one on me.


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## Taylor (Nov 20, 2021)

indianroads said:


> That's true. You can use the ISBN you get on your own or via another service on Amazon. Amazon also has Kindle Unlimited, where we get paid by the pages people read for free.


Glad to hear that since I have rented three of your books!  Another good reason to use KDP.


indianroads said:


> If you're looking for readers, you might also build a website for your author activities, and create pages on social networks (like FB).


I've already got those ready to go.  


indianroads said:


> Someone once told me that the best way to draw in more readers was to write more books - a one-off author doesn't have a lot of credibility.


I'm working on it...lol!  I understand that series are particularly desirable. 


indianroads said:


> I'm unsure about advertising products not sold on amazon on amazon - that's a new one on me.


I'll do a bit more digging and report back.


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## indianroads (Nov 20, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Glad to hear that since I have rented three of your books!  Another good reason to use KDP.


I hope you saved room for Inception - my Silicon Valley thriller - due out about this time next month.


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## Taylor (Nov 20, 2021)

indianroads said:


> I hope you saved room for Inception - my Silicon Valley thriller - due out about this time next month.


I am chomping at the bit!


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## Ralph Rotten (Nov 21, 2021)

Kindle Unlimited [KU] is a great place to pick up reviews.
_See, there is a lotta shit in KU...so if your stuff is decent, it will get picked up there quickly._
A 5-star review from a KU reader is just as sticky as one from an eBook buyer.
If your book is well written, they'll be on it like hungry pirhannas in KU.
KU readers are ravenous.



...but while you are in KU, you cannot sell *DIGITAL* copies of your book elsewhere in other markets.
*KU is exclusive*.
But you can sell all the *print* copies you want.


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## Ralph Rotten (Nov 21, 2021)

Also, if you join KU, you get some free marketing tools. 
You can give your book away for free for 5 days a quarter (good for reviews and exposure) 
You can host countdown sales (price goes down every day/hour. Lame-o)

I'd suggest KU while you are seeing activity, but when it peters out, move to other markets like D2D, Ingram...


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## Taylor (Nov 21, 2021)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Kindle Unlimited [KU] is a great place to pick up reviews.
> _See, there is a lotta shit in KU...so if your stuff is decent, it will get picked up there quickly._
> A 5-star review from a KU reader is just as sticky as one from an eBook buyer.
> If your book is well written, they'll be on it like hungry pirhannas in KU.
> ...


Thanks, Ralph...that is really good information!    If you publish outside of Amazon KDP, like Barnes & Noble can you still offer your ebook on KU?


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## Taylor (Nov 21, 2021)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Also, if you join KU, you get some free marketing tools.
> You can give your book away for free for 5 days a quarter (good for reviews and exposure)
> You can host countdown sales (price goes down every day/hour. Lame-o)
> 
> I'd suggest KU while you are seeing activity, but when it peters out, move to other markets like D2D, Ingram...


So that's another thing I'm not clear on.  Some of the self-publishing service providers offer that they will publish your book on more than one platform, for example, IngramSpark, Barnes & Noble, and KDP.  So if you handle this yourself, you would just upload to multiple sites?  Would you need a new ISBN each time you republish, or can you buy a generic one upfront?


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## indianroads (Nov 22, 2021)

Taylor said:


> So that's another thing I'm not clear on.  Some of the self-publishing service providers offer that they will publish your book on more than one platform, for example, IngramSpark, Barnes & Noble, and KDP.  So if you handle this yourself, you would just upload to multiple sites?  Would you need a new ISBN each time you republish, or can you buy a generic one upfront?


Different formats require unique ISBN's - this was a surprise I encountered when I published hardback novels. The paperback and hardback required different ISBN's - as these are used to find your book, I suppose it's understandable, yet I was surprised.


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## Ralph Rotten (Dec 8, 2021)

The reason I keep mentioning D2D is because they publish you in about 10 markets.


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## Ralph Rotten (Dec 8, 2021)

All of these.


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