# A Song of Ice and Fire



## Dropkick

Has anybody else read these books? It's my favorie series of all time, including all of the gross stuff. Hell, maybe even BECAUSE OF all of that stuff.
Death
Incest
Rape
All those good things.
I don't honestly know if I've ever read a good novel without death in it....hmmm...
Im not saying death necessarily makes a book good. But...I mean...Name one book you like that has absolutely no "human death" in it at all.
Hard isn't it?
Anyways, these books are epic. I highly recommend them to anyone who likes high fantasy.
The story spans over continents and all of the characters are so...real. That you feel like your heart's ripped out every time one of them kicks the bucket.
And Martin isn't afraid of taking out main characters either. Where most authors give their characters invisible shields that somehow stop a knife inches from the throat, Martin will have that blade not only driven into the person's esophagus, but describe graphically the blood spraying from the wound, the knife punching out the back of the man's neck, his final word dying on his tongue as all oxygen leaves his body in a wet, bloody gargle.
It's effin great.
And there is A LOT of sex.there is so much sex. And he goes into detail, where most guys would go "they did it" then move on. Martin writes two page sex scenes that are so realistic and in depth. You read every gasp, every moan, every thrust. And, ugh, you just feel like you're there.
Then there's this one scene where they try to murder this 9 year old. hahaha
Fuggin. Epic.

You should all read them.


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## Baron

> Name one book you like that has absolutely no "human death" in it at all.



Watership Down by Richard Adams.  Are you sure you only want one?


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## Dropkick

That wasn't really the point Mr.Baron. I'm saying a good percentage of literature contains human death, therefore the literature we write may also contain human death and be legitimate work.

And do rabbit's die in this book? Because I assumed "human" meant the dominant being in the series. Like if my main character was a wolf, in a world of wolves, then that would constitute a human death.

Otherwise, I guess I'll start writing graphic cat-people fights instead.


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## Don

His books are by far the best I've ever read, out of literally more than a thousand fantasy and sci-fi novels.

Like Thomas Dietz, (one of my idols--youtube his name if you want to see something fun) he's in a class of his own, and none can compare.

I'd change my sexual orientation for that man.

By the way, the HBO TV adaptation of "Game of Thrones" is surprisingly good. It's actually the greatest "book-to-screen" success I've ever seen.


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## Dropkick

Yeah, the show was surprisingly good.
But that may just be me since I had exceptionally low expectations.


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## Don

I also expected it to be crap, considering how high Mr. Martin set the bar. It will be very interesting to see how they present the third book, assuming they stick with the story. That one was by far my favourite. Jaime is the best character in the history of fiction.


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## Dropkick

I'm looking forward to the Battle of the Blackwater in Season 2.

And yes book 3 was the best

And I personally like Jon, Dany and Tyrion. But Jaime is definitely fourth. haha


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## Offeiriad

I just started book 1 on the recommendation of a dear friend. The start was a bit slow for me, but I stuck it out and am really enjoying it now. So far, I like the same characters you do, Dropkick, but I'm not really sure about Jaime at the moment since he did push Bran from that tower.


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## Don

Offeiriad said:


> I just started book 1 on the recommendation of a dear friend. The start was a bit slow for me, but I stuck it out and am really enjoying it now. So far, I like the same characters you do, Dropkick, but I'm not really sure about Jaime at the moment since he did push Bran from that tower.


Jaime is intentionally set up to be a villain in the mind of the reader. However, (minor spoiler) you get to read chapters from his perspective in book three, so inevitably, your own perspective on Jaime will change as you come to understand him, not through the condemning eyes of other characters who despise him, but through the thoughts and motivations revealed from "reading his mind," so to speak.

Martin shows us how our perceptions of people are always based on limited impressions and observations, and therefore, inherently false. I love how some authors are able to do this to perfection, as Mr. Martin has.


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## sir_vile_minds

Dropkick said:


> Has anybody else read these books? It's my favorie series of all time, including all of the gross stuff. Hell, maybe even BECAUSE OF all of that stuff.
> Death
> Incest
> Rape
> All those good things.
> I don't honestly know if I've ever read a good novel without death in it....hmmm...
> Im not saying death necessarily makes a book good. But...I mean...Name one book you like that has absolutely no "human death" in it at all.
> Hard isn't it?
> Anyways, these books are epic. I highly recommend them to anyone who likes high fantasy.
> The story spans over continents and all of the characters are so...real. That you feel like your heart's ripped out every time one of them kicks the bucket.
> And Martin isn't afraid of taking out main characters either. Where most authors give their characters invisible shields that somehow stop a knife inches from the throat, Martin will have that blade not only driven into the person's esophagus, but describe graphically the blood spraying from the wound, the knife punching out the back of the man's neck, his final word dying on his tongue as all oxygen leaves his body in a wet, bloody gargle.
> It's effin great.
> And there is A LOT of sex.there is so much sex. And he goes into detail, where most guys would go "they did it" then move on. Martin writes two page sex scenes that are so realistic and in depth. You read every gasp, every moan, every thrust. And, ugh, you just feel like you're there.
> Then there's this one scene where they try to murder this 9 year old. hahaha
> Fuggin. Epic.
> 
> You should all read them.



If death is your thing, then I recommend you read all of Shaun Hutson's work. It's not available in America so Amazon and eBay are your best places to look.

Also, if you can find it (Amazon again), read Blood Secrets by Craig Jones (not from SlipKnot). It's extremely obscure and there appears to be nothing online about the author or the book other than reviews.


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## caelum

Dropkick said:


> And yes book 3 was the best
> 
> And I personally like Jon, Dany and Tyrion. But Jaime is definitely fourth. haha


I'm on the third now, and having just read the second noticed a definite jump in quality. Smoother writing, better scenes.  George R.R. Martin must have got some practice between the two, done some other novels.  I mostly like his writing style, but ye olde English rankles more often than it convinces me I'm watching a medieval fantasy play out.

The villains are too one-dimensional, and lots of filler action bogs down the story, but I actually really like the series so far, just don't think it's epicly amazing and timeless and a classic like some people.  More slightly above average B+ quality. And too many names have "ae" in them, which I know sounds hypocritical, but literally every other character is named something like Laendon Renael.  This is a common trapping of bad fantasy.

Tyrion rules.  I want to see him get the better of his damned family.  Jon I'm not as crazy about.  He's too mopey and sulky.


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## Jk1

Have read the first two. Have to say I am kind of addicted. I think the death thing is really important, not for its own sake, but because it makes his writing so unpredictable. If a main POV character can be killed off then it immediately circumvents that whole lack of tension problem you find in most franchised fiction. I don't agree that the villains are one-dimensional - Tywin and Cersei, The hound? As fantasy fiction goes they seem pretty rounded to me.


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## Offeiriad

caelum said:


> And too many names have "ae" in them, which I know sounds hypocritical, but literally every other character is named something like Laendon Renael.



With the exception of the title of 'maester' I've encountered only two: Aemon, Aegon and Baelor. They're not characters one consistently encounters - two are from the past and the third is an aging Night Watchman.


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## Syren

I thought the first book was the best and now that I'm at the fourth my appreciation for the series has dwindled down to passingly readable. 

There are interesting points and the style is decent, but nothing new. The characters are well built and his fearless handling of them is enjoyable, but it seems like he's bargaining for time, or maybe he wants to make a three book series into a six. I don't know, I just started the series with a much greater appreciation for Martin than I have now. I'd rather be reading a Glen Cook or Gene Wolfe book.

I still appreciate the series - he's up there in my list of favorites. I really want to look for other novels by Martin outside of Ice and Fire, see if they're as good or better.


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## Dropkick

I reccommend Fevre Dream by Martin.

And the 4th is really slow. You kinda have to go in expecting it. I was warned so it was alright. He basically filled it with the uninteresting characters and made a 5 year wait into an 11 year wait to hear what the interesting characters are doing. But 5 gets better, though it seems he's grasping for plot development at times.


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## Tatham

I watched the series when it was aired on Sky Atlantic. My girlfriend and I were held by its spell from minute one. I've only just started reading the book, having loved series one so much. My only concern is that I fear the book and series won't differ and therefore won't surprise me at times. Otherwise I love Martin's writing style and his ability to spell out the plot in that fantastic mood set for fantasy.


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## Offeiriad

I have now read two complete books and I have concluded that I don't really like Martin's writing. Why? He is wholly incapable of moving things forward. These books are thick not because they encompass years of these characters' lives but because he's documented their lives in minute and, as far as I am concerned, annoying detail. Perhaps if the books were set at 5 year intervals within the plot, I might be more interested, but it's like he feels compelled to tell you every single detail of all of his characters' lives. I've never read Tolkien, but I don't think the two can be compared.


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## Steerpike

I like the series. I think it is well done and interesting.

If you want a gritty, brutal fantasy, however, Joe Abercrombies _Best Served Cold_ makes George Martin's books look like a day at Disneyland


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## Ol' Fartsy

I am currently reading Book 1 now because of HBO doing a 10 episode series of A Game of Thrones.


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## chongjasmine

I do like the song of ice and fire. I had finished the first 4 books in the series. I think Martin is a good writer. But I am the minority of readers who prefer a more 'clean' version of ice and fire. Less incest, less rape, and less death of favourite characters.


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## GostPhareal

I read the first book of the serie, and I am reading the second book.

I love them but there is something that stops me each times: when he starts enumerating all the Lords and Ser around the table. Although it might be necessary for the description of some scenes, it is really annoying to read twenty names of people that might never be talked about later in the series.

On the contrary, I admire Martin for being able to remember those names all when he does use them once again later on. He created so many of them, even with a list, I would get easily lost.


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## Senserial

I have read only "Game of Thrones" and I liked it. I also started watching the TV series, but it didn't grab my attention for a long time.


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## Mesafalcon

Yes, every one, cover to cover.

I love GRRMs style and attitude to the biz in general. 

He is the "Donald Trump" of writers saying what few dare to say or admit about the biz.

These are the best fantasy books ever written to me - of course, slightly behind LOTR which slighlty contradicts what I just said, but use your imagination to understand the comment.


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## MrTiggles

I really want to find the time to read these......
I'm a huge fan of the show and waiting patiently for the new season to come out. (insert foot tapping impatience here), so ya....
It's on my bucket list


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## Ultraroel

I find Mr Martin the biggest douchebag there is. Out of sheer stubborness grown from my dislike, I will not read the books of this douche


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## Stone Angel

Waiting patiently for my turn. I know who has the books, and he knows i'm next.


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## C.Gholy

It's entertaining. 
But I don't really follow it faithfully. 
There's so much death, incest and sex in it that it stopped becoming exciting for me.


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## rayhensley

I've been putting off watching this show since it first aired. Now that The Walking Dead is getting "meh", maybe it's time I give it a shot?


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## kellir3288

I know this post is a bit old but I thought I would throw my two cents in.  

I started the books as my fiance was watching the show and I'm not much on tv violence.  (I find it's easier to read it than actually watch it happen, for me anyway).  I really enjoyed them, until about half way through the fourth book.  I had to put it down for a bit and stop reading.  I don't enjoy how new characters get thrown in like crazy and it's a lot to keep up with for me.  I do think the man is a gifted writer, I just have to navigate through everything LOL


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## Bard_Daniel

I've read the whole series. In my humble opinion, the books vary in quality and, after the third, remarkably decline.


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