# What is the best word count for a novel?



## Taylor (Jan 9, 2021)

I seem to be finding conflicting information about what would be the best word count for getting a publisher interested in a novel.  Or once it's published, to help it sell well.  

The writers advice blogs generally say around 70,000-90,000.  But when I look at best sellers they are a lot more.

The Gold Finch - 297,680 words
50 Shades of Grey - 172,260 
The Shining - 200,000
A Tale of Two Cities - 135,000 words
The Da Vinci Code -170,000 words
The Catcher in the Rye - 73,000 words (I remember thinking this one was quite short when I first read it)
The Philosophers Stone (Harry Potter) - 76,944 words (a younger readership)

I know people say just use as many words as you need to tell the story, but I have lots of characters and two plotlines, so I could take it into different directions if needed.  For a first time author writing a corporate thriller, what would be a good word count range to get publishers interested?


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## Tiamat (Jan 10, 2021)

Interesting question. I don't necessarily think there's a single "best" wordcount, but I think the range you mentioned is sort of the standard. I know a few traditionally published authors who shoot for that range in particular. I also think it varies based on genre, current trends, and target audience. The author's publishing experience almost certainly counts to some degree as well. Case in point, the first Harry Potter book is only 76,944 words, but the fifth one is 257,045. Publishers are more likely to let well-known authors take up more space, so to speak. 

Although I can't speak to corporate thrillers in particular, I believe the typical thriller novel tends to be a touch longer than, say, a romance, so I think you could get away with up to 100K-110K words. There's no reason you couldn't go longer if the story demanded it, but longer works from new authors tend to be a tough sell. It would just have to really blow a publisher's socks off for them to invest in a longer work from an unknown.


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## Taylor (Jan 10, 2021)

Tiamat said:


> Interesting question. I don't necessarily think there's a single "best" wordcount, but I think the range you mentioned is sort of the standard. I know a few traditionally published authors who shoot for that range in particular. I also think it varies based on genre, current trends, and target audience. The author's publishing experience almost certainly counts to some degree as well. Case in point, the first Harry Potter book is only 76,944 words, but the fifth one is 257,045. Publishers are more likely to let well-known authors take up more space, so to speak.
> 
> Although I can't speak to corporate thrillers in particular, I believe the typical thriller novel tends to be a touch longer than, say, a romance, so I think you could get away with up to 100K-110K words. There's no reason you couldn't go longer if the story demanded it, but longer works from new authors tend to be a tough sell. It would just have to really blow a publisher's socks off for them to invest in a longer work from an unknown.



That is good to know about Harry Potter and is in keeping with what I have read about first time authors and subsequent publications.

I'm currently at 50K and originally, I was shooting for 70K but so far I have only covered a week and a half of time. There is still a month to go before the actual crime gets discovered. Of course, I could jump ahead, but I prefer not to do that. I have already included a lot of background on the three MCs and that took up a fair bit of words, so I should be able to cover a longer time frame in the second half. Also, I am using a lot of dialogue to tell the story and that takes more words than narration. So now I'm thinking it would be more comfortable to finish at around 90K-110K. 

The target market is professionals who have read a lot of technical, business-related nonfiction in their jobs. I wouldn't think a larger word count would be an issue for them. What do you think?

Is it likely that a publisher, if looking for new material in the 70-80K range, would cast a wider net so as not to miss anything that could potentially fit into their target range? I'm thinking it would be more likely than them considering something that is too short.  It would be easier to pare down than to rely on the author to add on.  Does that make sense?

Although, changing my word count puts me at just 50% complete instead of 70% complete. It's a bit of a psychological hurdle, but I think I can deal with that!


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## Tiamat (Jan 10, 2021)

Taylor said:


> The target market is professionals who have read a lot of technical, business-related nonfiction in their jobs. I wouldn't think a larger word count would be an issue for them. What do you think?
> 
> Is it likely that a publisher, if looking for new material in the 70-80K range, would cast a wider net so as not to miss anything that could potentially fit into their target range? I'm thinking it would be more likely than them considering something that is too short.  It would be easier to pare down than to rely on the author to add on.  Does that make sense?


That first question is a difficult one to answer. I read a lot of technical, business-related nonfiction in my job and I'm in no way daunted by longer works, but I'm certain some of my colleagues would say the opposite. I'm not sure work reading requirements are in any way proportional to one's preferred novel length. 

To the second question, publishers are lucky in that they receive significantly more manuscripts than they could ever hope of publishing, so they don't really have to look too hard to find new material. Granted, I don't know that publishers have strict word counts they abide by or anything like that, but I do know that the longer the novel is, the more it costs to publish the thing. The more it costs to publish, the less likely they are to take a risk on a newbie. Not only does a new writer not have an established fan base that can be counted on to rush out and buy the latest novel no matter how long it is, but the amount of time and work that goes into editing a longer manuscript is also a factor. Even if you have the most inspirational work ethic this world has ever seen, the publisher doesn't know that about you. They've never worked with you before to see how efficiently and effectively you handle requests for rewrites and edits; they have no idea that you're phenomenal at marketing and promoting your work. All they know about you is that you wrote a novel that--either knowingly or unknowingly--is longer than the traditional length for debut thriller authors. Again, that's not necessarily a deal-breaker, but it is still something of a red flag. 

Now, take all of this with a grain of salt; I've neither published a novel nor worked for a publisher. I just think the business side of publishing is something a lot of folks just don't consider too often. It's not nearly as interesting as the writing side.


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## Hector (Jan 12, 2021)

My longest novel so far is 54k words. I don't know how people manage more words than that. :highly_amused:


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## TWErvin2 (Jan 15, 2021)

It partially depends on the genre and even the subgenre. Epic fantasy readers tend to expect longer novels than urban fantasy. Also, it is my observation that often that the works published by an author tend to get a little longer as they advance into their career.

Rather than check the word count of best sellers, check the word count of first novels published. If you can narrow it to the genre or subgenre, even better (as indicated by the OP, corporate thriller). Maybe even look at specific publishers. If they have guidelines, they may list preferred word count. But you can also check the length of their recently released titles, and those of their debut authors.

Another thing might be to check the guidelines for established agents in the industry, especially those that represent the type of works you write. They may have preferred word counts listed.

But, as indicated, the story should be as long as it takes to tell (in the best manner possible). Good luck moving forward!


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## Nicola (Jan 15, 2021)

Coincidently, I have just watched a few videos on YouTube of an Agent speaking about word counts amongst other things. 80,000 words does tend to be the average, and most agents/ publishers would be put off by a word count much less than 70,000. The maximum mentioned was 130k and above as it's asking a lot from readers. But as already pointed out, for already established authors a lengthier novel is not as much of a risk if they already have a fan base etc.


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## Taylor (Jan 15, 2021)

TWErvin2 said:


> It partially depends on the genre and even the subgenre. Epic fantasy readers tend to expect longer novels than urban fantasy. Also, it is my observation that often that the works published by an author tend to get a little longer as they advance into their career.
> 
> Rather than check the word count of best sellers, check the word count of first novels published. If you can narrow it to the genre or subgenre, even better (as indicated by the OP, corporate thriller). Maybe even look at specific publishers. If they have guidelines, they may list preferred word count. But you can also check the length of their recently released titles, and those of their debut authors.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your response!  It was incredibly helpful.  I went into MS Wishlist, and found a number of agents representing similar novels.  Some of them did give word count guidlines.  You are right that the first published novels tend to have a lower word count.  Most indicate under 100K.  Fortunately, that will work well for me.  But it's good to have the confidence that I am shooting for the right number.


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## Cephus (Jan 15, 2021)

What's your genre. Every one has its own standards. 80-100k is a general goal, but romance skews lower and epic fantasy skews much higher. There is no single number.


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## Taylor (Jan 15, 2021)

Cephus said:


> What's your genre. Every one has its own standards. 80-100k is a general goal, but romance skews lower and epic fantasy skews much higher. There is no single number.



It's corporate suspense.


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## EternalGreen (Jan 15, 2021)

Thrillers are usually 90-100 thousand words.


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## Taylor (Jan 15, 2021)

EternalGreen said:


> Thrillers are usually 90-100 thousand words.



Thanks for your response!  I am aiming in that range now.  And trying to be on the lower side since I am a first time novelist.


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## Taylor (Jan 15, 2021)

Nicola said:


> Coincidently, I have just watched a few videos on YouTube of an Agent speaking about word counts amongst other things. 80,000 words does tend to be the average, and most agents/ publishers would be put off by a word count much less than 70,000. The maximum mentioned was 130k and above as it's asking a lot from readers. But as already pointed out, for already established authors a lengthier novel is not as much of a risk if they already have a fan base etc.



Thanks for the confirmation.  It's good to know the average.  Originally, I was shooting for 70,000.  But I'm leaning more towards 80,000 now.  I think it is still low enough not to scare off publishers.


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## Nicola (Jan 18, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Thanks for the confirmation.  It's good to know the average.  Originally, I was shooting for 70,000.  But I'm leaning more towwards 80,000 now.  I think it is still low enough not to scare off publishers.



Yes I think you should be safe with 80,000 from what I have read.


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## Private Universe (Jan 30, 2021)

Another case in point that the works published by an author tend to get a  longer as they advance into their career, is Stephenie Meyer's Twilight series:

Twilight – 118,975 words
New Moon – 132,758 words
Eclipse – 148,971 words
Breaking Dawn – 186,542 words

Total: 587,246 words

= more author confidence, and more publisher relaxation.

At 66,506 words, Sylvia Plath's The Bell Jar is shorter than The Catcher in te Rye.

I found this online:
Novella: 17,000 – 40,000 words. 
Longer than 40,000 is generally considered a “short novel”.
Short story: Under 7,500 words. 
If it's under 1,000, then it might be called “flash fiction”.

Re. "The story should be as long as it takes to tell (in the best manner possible)" VS. The harsh realities of publishing pragmatism:

It's such a hard tension to navigate the hard bottom lines of publishing VS. the individual creativity and unique expression required to write a book/story, with the one enterprise potentially killing the other, but neither can live without the other. Sounds an unhealthy co-dependent relationship to me, but we're  willing to grapple with it because the rewards when it works are so sweet.

The 2009 film 'Julie and Julia' I think had a great scene showing Julia Child breaking the mould in publishing 'Mastering the Art of French Cooking' which was longer than the typical cookbook at that time.


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## Taylor (Jan 30, 2021)

Private Universe said:


> Another case in point that the works published by an author tend to get a  longer as they advance into their career, is Stephenie Meyer's Twilight series:
> 
> Twilight – 118,975 words
> New Moon – 132,758 words
> ...



That's a good obsevation about the length continuing to get longer as the authors and the publishers get more confident.  

I always think I have this figured out at about 80-100K for a first novel.  But then I see that Kevin Kwan broke in with his first novel _Crazy Rich Asians, _coming in at 120,000.

Anyway, I do think what you say makes sense that it will take as long as it takes...


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## Cephus (Jan 31, 2021)

Private Universe said:


> Another case in point that the works published by an author tend to get a  longer as they advance into their career, is Stephenie Meyer's Twilight series:
> 
> Twilight – 118,975 words
> New Moon – 132,758 words
> ...



It's more a matter of the more successful the author, the more terrified the publisher is to force them to use an editor. The same is true of J.K. Rowling and why the last Harry Potter books got so insufferably long. They were making so much money off of her that they were afraid to piss her off.


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## Private Universe (Jan 31, 2021)

Cephus said:


> It's more a matter of the more successful the author, the more terrified the publisher is to force them to use an editor. The same is true of J.K. Rowling and why the last Harry Potter books got so insufferably long. They were making so much money off of her that they were afraid to piss her off.



Plus they knew fans were hooked so wouldn't be too bothered about the length. They might grumble but they'd still read to the end.


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## Taylor (Jan 31, 2021)

Private Universe said:


> Plus they knew fans were hooked so wouldn't be too bothered about the length. They might grumble but they'd still read to the end.



Or maybe they thought they would give them more for their money.  Although the piss-off factor sounds more likely.


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## ideasmith (Feb 21, 2021)

Are micro or flash fiction good for a new author to try to get published? Would publishers be more likely to take a chance on someone who can spin a good yarn with fewer words, and if the books were successful, could always ask the author to write meatier?


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## Pamelyn Casto (Feb 21, 2021)

Ideasmith, I've studied flash fiction for years. Have taught online courses in it for years. I've also written on the topic for all sorts of publications (including articles for Writer's Digest). My first book on the topic was recently released. I love good flash fiction. This kind of fiction is as difficult to write as good poetry. It's not easy writing merely because the writing's short. So that's a bit of my my background on the topic. 

Here's a bit of my personal history with the form. I read a tiny story by Padgett Powell, fell in love with his writing, and purchased his recently released novel. I read a couple of tiny stories by Lydia Davis, fell in love with her writing, and bought three of her collections. Other purchases have happened similarly (Jorge Luis Borges and Eduardo Galeano, for example).  Clearly, I'd guess it's clear anyway, I love good flash fiction. 

Yes, micros or flash fiction can be good for a new author to try to publish. Their use elsewhere shows the novel publisher this writer knows how to write, knows who to approach to get his/ her ideas viewed, and who shows their hard work is valuable to many others. Just try to avoid thinking of flash as less meaty work. After all, many recent novels are flash pieces done in novel form. So the tiny pieces, like bricks, can make a larger form. Good luck. You will find many treasures in the flash fiction world. I love think think of you adding to those treasures.


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## VRanger (Feb 21, 2021)

Cephus said:


> It's more a matter of the more successful the author, the more terrified the publisher is to force them to use an editor. The same is true of J.K. Rowling and why the last Harry Potter books got so insufferably long. They were making so much money off of her that they were afraid to piss her off.



That's the prime example I reference when the discussion gets around to an author that's "Too Big to Edit".

However, it doesn't have to only be long manuscripts. Alan Dean Foster got "too big to edit". He didn't write longer novels, he just started turning in crap and got away with it.


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## Ralph Rotten (Feb 22, 2021)

Taylor said:


> I seem to be finding conflicting information about what would be the best word count for getting a publisher interested in a novel.  Or once it's published, to help it sell well.
> 
> The writers advice blogs generally say around 70,000-90,000.  But when I look at best sellers they are a lot more.
> 
> ...




Ignore word counts.
Write the best damned book you can.
I have seen too many writers gut a book to meet some unwritten word count (myself included.)

Damn the torpedoes and word counts.


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## VRanger (Feb 22, 2021)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Ignore word counts.
> Write the best damned book you can.
> I have seen too many writers gut a book to meet some unwritten word count (myself included.)
> 
> Damn the torpedoes and word counts.



Except when they're written word counts. Send 70K to Baen and they'll dump it. They're not interested in anything short of 100K. Their top end preference is 130K. Send in 250K without being a name? Zero chance.

Like Terry pointed out in the similar Writing Discussion thread, there is advantage to knowing the business for anyone aspiring to be a professional. Sure, if someone is just writing for their own gratification and doesn't care about ever finding a market, write what you want and don't pay attention. For those who want to do some business, learning their way around is a good idea.

Look, there are all levels of writers. Effective writers who have a chance at an agent and a publisher are most likely going to be subject to word count. The author who "writes long" is seldom a good judge of whether or not they did that. Stranger in a Strange Land went in at well over 200K words. The editor and the publisher made Heinlein "gut" it to about 180K. He opposed the cuts. Then the darned book went ahead and won a Hugo. I've read both versions. The editor was right.


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## ScifiWriter (Feb 24, 2021)

Oh, wow. This is a sticky wicket. I must agree with Ralph Rotten. Write the best damned novel you can.

Then, edit it like a reader. Unfortunately when I do that, it generally grows.

Then, copy edit it. I might suggest the minimum would be to use a program such as Grammarly on it. I might also suggest a human copy editor but they can get expensive. I am always amazed at how many commas are required to write a novel. No matter how you do it, this is the most important determinant of correct grammar and punctuation.

Then read it out loud to someone else. How long did that take? a good medium novel requires somewhere between 6-7 hours to read out load. That would be 60 - 70,000 words. A long novel might take twice that long. How did your story sound? Is it what you expected? Did the listener ask questions or for explanations? Fixing that adds to the size, but by all means, fix it... then copy edit it again.

Only after you have that all done can you begin to worry about the size.
My traditional publisher particularly targeted novels in the 50 - 90,000 word rangeas being appropriate for his business.
Look on Amazon for the 10 Best Sellers in your category. How long are they by word count or pages?  How does your word count compare to theirs?
It should be close. The readers determine what your word count should be. A traditional publisher should also know exactly what he/she is looking for.
If you are aiming at the traditional publisher, then look at their guidelines for a clue. Otherwise, use the average of the top 10 Best Sellers as your guide.

If you want to sell novels then you must write to the market you are selling into no matter if you publish traditionally or Indie.
All that being said, write your butt off. Write the best damned novel you can. Write because its your passion... then sell it.
JMHO


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## Taylor (Feb 24, 2021)

ScifiWriter said:


> Oh, wow. This is a sticky wicket. I must agree with Ralph Rotten. Write the best damned novel you can.
> 
> Then, edit it like a reader. Unfortunately when I do that, it generally grows.
> 
> ...



That's great advice about the reading out loud.  I will try that!  Fortunately for me I have a live in editor.  My husband was an English teacher. 

But when you say to compare with the ten best sellers in my category, that's where I get confused because they are all in the 120-170,000 range. For example _Crazy Rich Asians, _Kevin Kwok's first novel would be a direct comparison, and it is 130,000. Yet most advice I find recommends for a first novel keeping it under 90,000.  Do you see my conundrum?


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## ScifiWriter (Feb 24, 2021)

First novel or not, you will never sell it if its too short.
from what I see, you should be writing about 120,000 word novel.
No matter how hard you try, if you shoot for 120, you will end up longer than that.
I crank out one scifi novel in 2 months. That would be about 60,000 words. So, I would presume to spend 4-6 months to crank out a 120,000 word novel, but that is just me. Once I put my characters into action, they write the whole story for me.
I have a couple of stories over 120,000 words, but I wrote them years ago.
But now I ramble on.


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## Taylor (Feb 25, 2021)

ScifiWriter said:


> First novel or not, you will never sell it if its too short.
> from what I see, you should be writing about 120,000 word novel.
> No matter how hard you try, if you shoot for 120, you will end up longer than that.
> I crank out one scifi novel in 2 months. That would be about 60,000 words. So, I would presume to spend 4-6 months to crank out a 120,000 word novel, but that is just me. Once I put my characters into action, they write the whole story for me.
> ...



See, 120,000 makes sense.  I'm at about 65,000 now and I still have a lot to story to tell.  But people say a publisher won't take a chance on a first time novelist with more than 100,000.  But I do not write at the same speed you do.  I estimate about one year for completion including the plot and character development period.  That may be a factor with finding a publisher as well.  I don't know if they look for authors who will be more prolific.


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## Taylor (Feb 25, 2021)

ideasmith said:


> Are micro or flash fiction good for a new author to try to get published? Would publishers be more likely to take a chance on someone who can spin a good yarn with fewer words, and if the books were successful, could always ask the author to write meatier?



Good idea, but I'm already at 65K, so it might be too late with this piece.  I think I'm all in for a full length novel now.  But perhaps for the next one.


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## Taylor (Feb 25, 2021)

Pamelyn Casto said:


> Ideasmith, I've studied flash fiction for years. Have taught online courses in it for years. I've also written on the topic for all sorts of publications (including articles for Writer's Digest). My first book on the topic was recently released. I love good flash fiction. This kind of fiction is as difficult to write as good poetry. It's not easy writing merely because the writing's short. So that's a bit of my my background on the topic.
> 
> Here's a bit of my personal history with the form. I read a tiny story by Padgett Powell, fell in love with his writing, and purchased his recently released novel. I read a couple of tiny stories by Lydia Davis, fell in love with her writing, and bought three of her collections. Other purchases have happened similarly (Jorge Luis Borges and Eduardo Galeano, for example).  Clearly, I'd guess it's clear anyway, I love good flash fiction.
> 
> Yes, micros or flash fiction can be good for a new author to try to publish. Their use elsewhere shows the novel publisher this writer knows how to write, knows who to approach to get his/ her ideas viewed, and who shows their hard work is valuable to many others. Just try to avoid thinking of flash as less meaty work. After all, many recent novels are flash pieces done in novel form. So the tiny pieces, like bricks, can make a larger form. Good luck. You will find many treasures in the flash fiction world. I love think think of you adding to those treasures.



Thanks for the advice! I have a series in mind for flash fiction after this novel is finished.  It is for the YA market.   I'll take a look at your book before I get started.


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## ideasmith (Feb 25, 2021)

Pamelyn Casto;[URL="tel:2333298" said:
			
		

> 2333298[/URL]]Ideasmith, I've studied flash fiction for years. Have taught online courses in it for years. I've also written on the topic for all sorts of publications (including articles for Writer's Digest). My first book on the topic was recently released. I love good flash fiction. This kind of fiction is as difficult to write as good poetry. It's not easy writing merely because the writing's short. So that's a bit of my my background on the topic.
> 
> Here's a bit of my personal history with the form. I read a tiny story by Padgett Powell, fell in love with his writing, and purchased his recently released novel. I read a couple of tiny stories by Lydia Davis, fell in love with her writing, and bought three of her collections. Other purchases have happened similarly (Jorge Luis Borges and Eduardo Galeano, for example).  Clearly, I'd guess it's clear anyway, I love good flash fiction.
> 
> Yes, micros or flash fiction can be good for a new author to try to publish. Their use elsewhere shows the novel publisher this writer knows how to write, knows who to approach to get his/ her ideas viewed, and who shows their hard work is valuable to many others. Just try to avoid thinking of flash as less meaty work. After all, many recent novels are flash pieces done in novel form. So the tiny pieces, like bricks, can make a larger form. Good luck. You will find many treasures in the flash fiction world. I love think think of you adding to those treasures.



Thank you, Pamelyn;

To clarify my position, I’m not looking for an easy, no-work path to getting published. I’ve heard about micro fiction in the context that that’s what some/many readers want. What I’m really asking is: is micro fiction or something like it a good thing for a new and unpublished author to produce, given what the market may be after?

While unpublished, I am no stranger to writing. I toil over concept, sentence structure and word choices to get things just right. There’s nothing easy about that, as we all know.

Thank you!


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## indianroads (Mar 1, 2021)

Copied from an internet search:
thewritelife dot com
[h=2]*What should my book word count be?*[/h]The following are average word-count ranges by genre.
[h=3]*General Fiction*[/h]

*Flash Fiction**:* 300–1500 words
*Short Story**:* 1500–30,000 words
*Novellas**:* 30,000–50,000 words
*Novels:* 50,000–110,000 words
[h=3]*Fiction Genres*[/h]

*Mainstream Romance:* 70,000–100,000 words
*Subgenre Romance:* 40,000–100,000 words
*Science Fiction / Fantasy:* 90,000–120,000 (and sometimes 150,000) words
*Historical Fiction:* 80,000–100,000
*Thrillers / Horror / Mysteries / Crime:* 70,000–90,000 words
*Young Adult:* 50,000–80,000
[h=3]*Children’s Books*[/h]

*Picture Books:* 300–800 words
*Early Readers:* 200–3500 words
*Chapter Books:* 4000–10,000 words
*Middle Grade:* 25,000–40,000 words
[h=3]*Nonfiction*[/h]

*Standard Nonfiction* (Business, Political Science, Psychology, History, etc.): 70,000–80,000 words
*Memoir:* 80,000–100,000 words
*Biography:* 80,000–200,000 words
*How-to / Self-Help:* 40,000–50,000 words

All  of these are average book word count ranges and should not be taken as  the definitive word count you must reach in your book. We all know of  outliers within each genre that have been published well under, or well  over, these word counts.


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## luckyscars (Mar 1, 2021)

In addition to what Indian posted, which is basically the standard...

From my experience and conversations, publishing folks' tolerance for word count is primarily affected by their overall interest in the piece and initial assumptions on writing ability.

For example, if the query for a historical fiction novel is extremely strongly written and the agent really likes the idea, then the fact it is a little long, let's say ~110,000 words, maybe even up to 120,000 or 130,000 wont necessarily be an issue. However, if they are on the fence it will be. The more on the fence they are about the idea, the more trivial issues such as word count are going to matter.

They will also take into account the style of the writing from the first 10 page (or whatever) sample. If the writing is on the purple side, they are going to assume the 120,000 word story is simply full of meandering garbage and pass. However, if the writing is tight, they may be inclined to give the benefit of the doubt and assume the 120,000 words are actually packed full of story. 

TL;DR: Word count IS important, but it's not the most important thing. Rather than focus on hitting an ideal word count, try to focus on the overall quality of the book and then edit it to an _acceptable _rather than a necessarily _optimal _range. The idea here is just to eliminate Reasons To Pass.


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## Private Universe (Jul 19, 2021)

Just discovered this Wikipedia page on 'List of longest novels':






						List of longest novels - Wikipedia
					







					en.wikipedia.org
				




One of its shorter ones is:

The Lord of the Rings    JRR Tolkien    Allen & Unwin    1,178 pages  ----------------   558,003 words


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## VRanger (Jul 19, 2021)

Private Universe said:


> Just discovered this Wikipedia page on 'List of longest novels':
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Lord of the Rings is actually six books in three volumes, so whoever compiled that list didn't know what they were doing, there. For the rest of that, someone else can try them. I don't have the next year of my life to devote to anyone's extraordinarily long treatise.  I'd far rather read six 100K novels than one 600K novel.


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## Taylor (Jul 19, 2021)

Private Universe said:


> Just discovered this Wikipedia page on 'List of longest novels':
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm just in the process of re-reading Atlus Shrugged.   I really enjoyed it as a teenager, but finding my patience is tried as an adult.


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## Private Universe (Jul 19, 2021)

Taylor said:


> I'm just in the process of re-reading Atlus Shrugged.   I really enjoyed it as a teenager, but finding my patience is tried as an adult.


Oh I should try out that book again on my 'adult' (so-called) mind! I also last read it as a teenager. Would be fun to see how it holds up.


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## Chris Miller (Jul 19, 2021)

For SF, 100k seems to be the sweet spot. But my favorites (e.g., Infinite Jest are way, way longer. Really, word count should probably be the least of your worries.


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## VRanger (Jul 19, 2021)

Chris Miller said:


> For SF, 100k seems to be the sweet spot. But my favorites (e.g., Infinite Jest are way, way longer. Really, word count should probably be the least of your worries.


Word count is a big worry for most authors who are not established. Rowling was rejected quite a few times on Philosopher's Stone, but if it had been as long as the last book, she'd have kept being rejected. Particularly the last two books were only as long as they were because she became "too big to edit". They were full of ridiculous lengthy boring sequences that the publisher and readers would have rejected without the foundation laid by the first few.


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## Olly Buckle (Jul 20, 2021)

Partly it must depend on the publisher. I am told 'Gone with the wind' got fifty rejections, not surprising at a bit over 418K words. I would say write it as you see fit, then be very persistent in your submitting process until you find that one in fifty publishers who bothers to look at it properly. Not that I know anything, one book self published and then I found it more fun to turn to YouTube.


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## dale (Jul 20, 2021)

it really does depend upon genre. fundamentally? 40,000 words can be considered a novel. but really? the only publisher that would
accept that short of a manuscript would be in the "literature" department. horror, romance, and speculative fiction generally like things over
60,000 words. when you delve into epic fantasy? the word count can go a bit higher. lol. high fantasy tends to draw "serial" readers.


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## Deleted member 66220 (Sep 27, 2021)

Publishers always ask you to include the word count in your "cover letter." This is an important piece of information for them. Based upon the sample you submit, your synopsis, and writing quality, they decide whether to contact you for a full submission or not. They have their own calculations for the matter in relation to the editing costs, time, effort, the targeted readers, among other technical issues. The most convenient word count is as you stated 70,000-90,000 words. It produces a more feasible, easier-to-read book. Most readers feel discouraged to buy big novels, especially the ones written by new writers. They cannot be sure whether they would be worthy of their time and money or not. Hence, try to stick to a maximum limit of 90,000 words. Take Paulo Coelho's Alchemist as an example, its word count didn't exceed 40,000 words; nonetheless, it was a great hit. As a rule of thumb, the simpler your novel is the merrier is everyone.​


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## LoveofWriting (Sep 28, 2021)

Ehab Shawky said:


> Publishers always ask you to include the word count in your "cover letter." This is an important piece of information for them. Based upon the sample you submit, your synopsis, and writing quality, they decide whether to contact you for a full submission or not. They have their own calculations for the matter in relation to the editing costs, time, effort, the targeted readers, among other technical issues. The most convenient word count is as you stated 70,000-90,000 words. It produces a more feasible, easier-to-read book. Most readers feel discouraged to buy big novels, especially the ones written by new writers. They cannot be sure whether they would be worthy of their time and money or not. Hence, try to stick to a maximum limit of 90,000 words. Take Paulo Coelho's Alchemist as an example, its word count didn't exceed 40,000 words; nonetheless, it was a great hit. As a rule of thumb, the simpler your novel is the merrier is everyone.​



That's great advice.


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## Story Unlikely (Oct 10, 2021)

80k has been the historic gold standard, but that's for emerging authors. If you're a best seller you can do whatever you want


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## RGS (Dec 2, 2021)

Mine are all psychological thrillers and range from 86,000 to 88,000. I read that the sweet spot for the genre is 70-90k, so I went with that.


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