# Indies United Publishing House



## Ralph Rotten

So a while back I posted something about a new group I had decided to join: Indies United Publishing House
Since then I have actually become a full-fledged member (and their first writer aside from the founder) so I thought I'd give the forum an update on this group.

So here is the deal with IUPH: They are not really a publisher _per se_.  Really they are more of a *consortium of writers gathered for collaborative marketing*.
Here is how it works once you are accepted*:

1) You buy [discounted] ISBN numbers for your books.
2) You self-publish the books just like you normally do, except you use the IUPH ISBN numbers that you purchased.
3) You keep ALL of your revenues, IUPH gets none of your money, at all.
4) Once a week you are required to tweet/twerk/facebook/snapchat about the group on social media (advertising the group)
5) Once a quarter you have to review another member's book (either on Goodreads or Amazon or one of the other vendors where they sell their book.)
6) Basically it is a group of Indie writers who all promote each other.

So what are the ISBNs for?  Have you ever had some jerkoff-wannabe post a bad review on your book, then when you researched 'em you found that they had given out bad [unwarranted] reviews to lots of other writers...but surreptitiously gave their own book 5 stars?  In IUPH, if you get caught flaming other writers without cause, you can get your ISBN retired. That means your book is no longer on sale, and you have to republish it, losing all your reviews.
The ISBNs are the safety valve to control abuse.

IUPH actually just opened its doors Sept 20th I think it was, so they are brand new.  Yet they have already picked up 5 writers as well as the founder. 

*So how do you get into IUPH?  Here is the deal, if you are a proven writer (you have published works that are consistently rated 3 or 4 stars or better,) you can get right in.
If you are a new writer, you have to submit a query & sample just like a real publishing house.
The purpose of this is that we are trying to put together a quality publishing house so that having that logo on your books will actually mean something.
We are trying to shed the image that self-pubs & indies are all just vanity press writers.

There are no fees.
You pay for nothing but the ISBNs, one for each format you publish, $25 each.
You keep your revenues.
You still control the entire publishing process.
*But now you have some help with the marketing.*






Yep, I'm working on convincing Lisa to upgrade the logo.
Otherwise the group is off to a good start.


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## Ralph Rotten

I forgot to mention: in addition to the new writers, IUPH is working with another group called WolfPack authors. We tweet their stuff, they tweet ours. Essentially we are increasing our market visibility by pairing up with WolfPack. 
Now not only do my 4000+ followers see my book tweets, but so so all of WolfPack's followers, and IUPH's followers...

Marketing is hard when you are an Indie. It's nice to have other people magnifying your efforts.

Check it out at www.IndiesUnited.net



Questions, anyone?


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## moderan

So, how is it working, so far? Is there a marked sales increase?
I'm looking at putting five books out next year, as an indie/self-publisher, and possibly another five or six through the imprint I edit for. Give me something to believe in.


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## Ralph Rotten

My book doesn't release until Oct 24th, and I only have 6 pre-orders thus far, so it's hard to tell just yet.
Part of the problem is that since Indies United just started, Lisa still has to get her own twitter following up.
But as more authors join, each bringing their own social media presence, our marketing power will be magnified.
As of today we just added our 3rd writer *(a poet)*.
I'll keep you updates as it takes off.

But if you are already Indie publishing, then IUPH can only help.  I mean, you still handle the whole process yourself, push your own marketing campaign, but with IUPH you get extra exposure from the other members (and book reviews too).


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## LisaOrbanAuthor

Hey now... I like my logo, don't be mean lol


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## LisaOrbanAuthor

Hi Moderan,
I'm the founder of Indies United. I wish I could give you some solid sales data, but we're honestly just too new to give you anything reliable at this point. We officially opened on September 12th.  I can tell you we average about a 100 or so visits a day, I can say since we opened we've had over 2000 visits to the site, I can say my personal sales have gone up some since the launch, and I haven't added any additional advertising outside of what I'm doing as part of Indies United. Since I opened I've let the most of my personal advertising drop, partly to see how it affected my sales. I've only kept up the twitter rotation that goes out automatically. But until I have more authors to offer the public and a few more months to become more familiar to people, I don't have enough data to offer an answer. 

I will say, you don't have anything to lose by throwing in with us. An ISBN set for 2 ebook formats and a physical book is still less than one ISBN purchase on your own. It might even be less than your monthly advertising budget and we will be advertising and market your books for as long as they hold our ISBNs. With every increase in numbers to our authors and beta readers (we're looking for those too, have a few but more would be better) you'll get more reviews than you would on your own, with almost no effort. And having a community at your back is always a good thing. 

I won't make extravagant promises, but I can say with certainty you will be no worse off than you would be going it completely on your own.


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## Theglasshouse

I like the marketing deal they give authors. Free reviews is always a good thing for authors. Social media is too good to spread word of mouth on a book to not be used.


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## moderan

I'll hold off any commitment or judgement until I see some data. I prefer my own ISBN and imprint at this juncture, thank you.


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## Ralph Rotten

moderan said:


> I'll hold off any commitment or judgement until I see some data. I prefer my own ISBN and imprint at this juncture, thank you.





A wise attitude.  I'll let ya know how it goes as we take on more authors.  
Like you I was fond of having my own logo on the spine of my books.
But if this will help me sell more books, then I'm interested in giving it a try.


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## kunox

I would sign up but I don't read fast enough to post a book review  ever quarter. It sounds like a good idea though. could swear it sounds like social buzz club though. not sure though.


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## Bayview

I agree with Moderan that someone else holding my ISBNs is a deal-breaker. If I'm self-publishing, I'm self-publishing, and I don't see a good reason to give someone else control over my work like that.

(It helps that ISBNs are free in Canada, but even in the US I think ISBNs would be a minor cost compared to editing and covers and formatting (for those of us who pay for those services).)


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## moderan

Planet X Publications, the publisher I work for, lets Amazon (or Lulu) ISBNs stand, but that's only for distribution through those channels. ISBNs in the US can be costly unless you buy them in bulk (I do).
I am part of a loose network of cross-promoters. The people I have published and our fellow writers and readers conspire and post our products on our Facebooks, Twitters, blogs. The trick is to get beyond that network. That's what I need to see here. I don't see anything revolutionary or superior to what I'm already doing...given that numerous members of the loose network are or have been winners of or nominees of WFAs, Stokers, Shirley Jacksons, Philip K Dick awards with wide fanbases of their own.


> If I'm self-publishing, I'm self-publishing, and I don't see a good reason to give someone else control over my work like that.



Well, shyeah. Ain't that why one (assuming professionalism) self-publishes, to have control over the presentation and content (_notwithstanding the general rule, which is that one can't get published otherwise, subject to Sturgeon's Law_)?


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## Ralph Rotten

moderan said:


> Planet X Publications, the publisher I work for, lets Amazon (or Lulu) ISBNs stand, but that's only for distribution through those channels. ISBNs in the US can be costly unless you buy them in bulk (I do).
> I am part of a loose network of cross-promoters. The people I have published and our fellow writers and readers conspire and post our products on our Facebooks, Twitters, blogs. The trick is to get beyond that network. That's what I need to see here. I don't see anything revolutionary or superior to what I'm already doing...given that numerous members of the loose network are or have been winners of or nominees of WFAs, Stokers, Shirley Jacksons, Philip K Dick awards with wide fanbases of their own.
> 
> 
> Well, shyeah. Ain't that why one (assuming professionalism) self-publishes, to have control over the presentation and content (_notwithstanding the general rule, which is that one can't get published otherwise, subject to Sturgeon's Law_)?





Well, why didn't ya ever invite me to join your loose association of writers? Now I feel totally left out. 


Seriously, one of the things that made it possible for me to join IUPH was that I had a book standing by, already completed and ready for publication.
My thinking is "I write lots of books, so no harm in risking one little sci-fi book that may not sell for crap anyhow" (based on my previous sci-fi books.)
Worst case scenario, it would sell as crappy as the others (I am better at selling post-apocalyptic than sci-fi).


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## moderan

I did. I explained how to join (just start doing it). 

I'm involved in starting up a publishing house, so it's a longer shot for me, that's all.


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## LisaOrbanAuthor

If in the future you do decide to join our merry band of Indies, I can offer you what I offered Ralph Rotten. On the copyright page after using our imprint, you can put on the line below "In association with..." and use the imprint name you've built up. You've spent time, money and effort working on gaining some name recognition, why let those efforts go to waste?


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## moderan

I suppose, and I thank you for the kind offer. A lot of people need more to learn how to gain entree to bookstores and higher-viewership, more prestige reviewers rather than cross-marketing -- things like getting reviewed by Kirkus or Pub Weekly, for example, how to get into brick-and-mortar stores, that kinda thing. This is really more what I'm looking for from an association or small/indie publisher, and why I'm actively looking for an agent for my longer work.
That said, I certainly don't see what you're doing as a bad thing, and for someone less advanced, it's a gimme. Good luck.


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## Ralph Rotten

moderan said:


> I suppose, and I thank you for the kind offer. A lot of people need more to learn how to gain entree to bookstores and higher-viewership, more prestige reviewers rather than cross-marketing -- things like getting reviewed by Kirkus or Pub Weekly, for example, how to get into brick-and-mortar stores, that kinda thing. This is really more what I'm looking for from an association or small/indie publisher, and why I'm actively looking for an agent for my longer work.
> That said, I certainly don't see what you're doing as a bad thing, and for someone less advanced, it's a gimme. Good luck.






Interesting; I wonder what we'd have to do to get more of our books into brick & mortar stores? What do big publishers do to get their print books into stores like Frys and CVS and Walgreens? To the niche book stores, and B&N?
Is this something that IUPH could do?

We're still writing this recipe.


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## moderan

Well, sir, I don't know. I am imagining a distribution relationship of some kind but what kind of contract results in such is beyond me atm. I've gotten my chapbook into Zia Records and one of the local Bookmans' on consignment.


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## Bayview

I think self-publishers can get their books into at least some local bookstores just by approaching/lobbying/nagging management, but if you're talking about larger-scale distribution...

Bookstores expect a 55% discount and they expect books to be returnable if they don't sell. And they want books they think will sell easily, so that means professional covers/editing, probably a recognizable and successful genre, etc. But also, they want to be marketed to.

One of the most exciting parts of having a deal with a Big 5 publisher was seeing my book in the marketing material they send to bookstores every month. A half-page ad, right across from a full-page ad for _N__ora Roberts_' new book (!!!). A glossy print brochure, sent every month to every bookstore in the country, with follow-up sales calls from the Penguin sales team.

Apparently a lot of bookstores just automatically order a couple copies of whatever's in the catalogue from the big publishers (obviously ordering more copies of Nora Roberts or equivalent). It's an established source of books that sell, the glossy brochure and sales calls make it easy to order from them... there's not much thinking required.

So, challenges I see for self-publishers:
  - having a financial model that gives a profit after paying for professional covers/editing, giving a 55% discount, and allowing for returns;
  - producing books that are written to the standard expected by book stores;
  - convincing bookstores that it makes sense to break their usual patterns of ordering from the expected publishers in order to take a chance on an unknown.


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## Jack of all trades

The expenses discussed so far : 

Buying a block of ISBNs;

Paying for professional editing and proofreading;

Paying for a professional cover design and artwork;

Paying for reviews by Kirkus and the like.


With all those expenses, you had better have books that are going to sell well, or you will be publishing at a loss.

The alternative, of course, is to have in-house talent for the editing, proofreading and art. I guess you could share royalties with them, but they are going to want a return on their investment of time and talent. So, again, you need books that will sell well.

Recognizing talent and an eye for what will do well in the market seems critical for any publisher, large or small.


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## moderan

Bayview said:


> So, challenges I see for self-publishers:
> - having a financial model that gives a profit after paying for professional covers/editing, giving a 55% discount, and allowing for returns;
> - producing books that are written to the standard expected by book stores;
> - convincing bookstores that it makes sense to break their usual patterns of ordering from the expected publishers in order to take a chance on an unknown.



So, pull yourself up by the bootstraps while standing on your head. 

Professional-quality work is demeaned by the presence of so many people that are not and never will be professionals. Every kunox makes it that much harder for a Ralph Rotten to be seen and taken seriously.
Networking is the answer, I think. In-genre if you're niche. Some of the best-known writers in my subgenera work at publishing houses or own/work at bookstores. It's no accident that they know more about the publishing business than others do. Standing next to them gets you some of that limelight. Talking/interacting gets you education.
Horror is trying to escape the publishing (big five litfic) ghetto, riding on the shoulders of dark fantasy and YA grimdark, which are big these days. There's shelf-space to be had. But you have to dumb down in order to do it. A writer like Paul Tremblay had to turn in A Head Full of Ghosts, which is the Exorcist told from the pov of a tween, in order to get a mass audience, and his publisher got a blurb from S King to help. Is that selling out? Of course it is. And just about anyone would do it, given the opportunity. 
That avenue isn't available to indies/self-pubs. But the model is still there.


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## Jack of all trades

Bayview said:


> I think self-publishers can get their books into at least some local bookstores just by approaching/lobbying/nagging management, but if you're talking about larger-scale distribution...
> 
> Bookstores expect a 55% discount and they expect books to be returnable if they don't sell. And they want books they think will sell easily, so that means professional covers/editing, probably a recognizable and successful genre, etc. But also, they want to be marketed to.
> 
> One of the most exciting parts of having a deal with a Big 5 publisher was seeing my book in the marketing material they send to bookstores every month. A half-page ad, right across from a full-page ad for _N__ora Roberts_' new book (!!!). A glossy print brochure, sent every month to every bookstore in the country, with follow-up sales calls from the Penguin sales team.
> 
> Apparently a lot of bookstores just automatically order a couple copies of whatever's in the catalogue from the big publishers (obviously ordering more copies of Nora Roberts or equivalent). It's an established source of books that sell, the glossy brochure and sales calls make it easy to order from them... there's not much thinking required.
> 
> So, challenges I see for self-publishers:
> - having a financial model that gives a profit after paying for professional covers/editing, giving a 55% discount, and allowing for returns;
> - producing books that are written to the standard expected by book stores;
> - convincing bookstores that it makes sense to break their usual patterns of ordering from the expected publishers in order to take a chance on an unknown.




B&N will sell POD books. You just don't get a display of your book at stores.


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## Bayview

Jack of all trades said:


> B&N will sell POD books. You just don't get a display of your book at stores.



Like, they'll special-order them? Or the reader could go through Amazon. I think it's having the books in stock that leads to sales, most of the time. Browsing is a good sales tool.


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## Ralph Rotten

B&N offers their own printing now, but it is a total vanity press system. They stick you with EXPANDED MARKETING FEES on every print book (you cannot deselect the option) so a print book that woulda cost $13 on Amazon will be $19 thru B&N.


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## Ralph Rotten

Bayview said:


> One of the most exciting parts of having a deal with a Big 5 publisher was seeing my book in the marketing material they send to bookstores every month. A half-page ad, right across from a full-page ad for _N__ora Roberts_' new book (!!!). A glossy print brochure, sent every month to every bookstore in the country, with follow-up sales calls from the Penguin sales team.
> 
> Apparently a lot of bookstores just automatically order a couple copies of whatever's in the catalogue from the big publishers (obviously ordering more copies of Nora Roberts or equivalent). It's an established source of books that sell, the glossy brochure and sales calls make it easy to order from them... there's not much thinking required.





Maybe that could be a thing for groups like IUPH; get enough writers, put them in a glossy catalog, send to book stores.
I could see doing something like that. But then I put the _shameless _in _shameless self-promotion. 




*"I'd piss on a spark plug if I thought it'd work!"*
General Beringer, WOPR Project_


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## Theglasshouse

I read this advice. Seek endorsements of prominent writers to sell your books. In the past I had a few editors follow me on likedin, and even invite me to a  chat room once. My advice is to take advantage of these opportunities if you wrote a novel, by having them review it on amazon if possible. We know they care about reputation. I have suggested this idea in the past and it is just a suggestion I came across when reading. ( about publishing short stories)


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## Ralph Rotten

Just an update: IUPH has signed about a dozen writers, we just had an author publish his second novel with IndiesUnited.
We have a pretty active social media force forming. No one has gotten rich yet, but we have been able to support one another's books.

If you are interested in Indie publishing, consider talking to Lisa Orban about IndiesUnited.


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## Theglasshouse

I haven't tackled a novel yet but I write short stories so that I can scratch my itch to express my creativity as pip said once (the reason people write was a thread here on the forum which is important for writers).Since I am almost always in a budget crisis since I depend on my father, it is a challenge to write a novel right now since I lack educational opportunities due to some investments which are bad capital but when I do I will have her to contact in mind ( property such as land that is slow to grow in value and to gain an investment). I wanted to be honest since I have dyslexia. I haven't given up my dream. I am more optimistic than last time. I will least have the software. Whether it will enough to write a novel remains to be seen as for a short story that is about 3000 words it takes a decent amount of time to correct. But I hope I do get to become an English mayor so that I can work from home, so it is not an impossible dream or far fetched. Because I experience a lot of anxiety. In short honesty matters and so I will have be patient as I sort out my problems first and to make sure the next thing I write works and that the grammar is correct. Even with the software I need to learn the rules of grammar. I found a book on sentence structure that is written as a general help reference but it is a lot of work. It's not impossible and the kindle fire with a black background and white font makes me feel I can read more easily.I have it but no doctors where I come from are trained in it. Because of language limitations. ( it is a foreign language here) (editing this on a kindle fire)


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## Ralph Rotten

I just wanted to post an update on this experiment known as IndiesUnited.
We just hit our 1 year anniversary, have more than a dozen writers signed, and now we have hit another milestone:
Our first #1 book.

Yep, one of our writers took the #1 position in the *Logic-new release *category.
I actually read his book as soon as it came out, and it was quite good. I had a hard time believing he was a first-time author.
I'm actually a little envious...the best I have been able to do was pull 52nd place in the *Humorous SciF*i category.


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## Bayview

The joy of "category" best-sellers - the smaller the category, the easier the conquering.

Still, it's a good marketing tool, maybe.


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## Ralph Rotten

Considering there are roughly 75,000 books published a month, climbing to the top of any of them is an achievement. The ocean is deep in the modern publishing world.


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