# Starting a book with a dream sequence?



## mklemo (Sep 4, 2012)

So, I think I've briefly discussed this subject on the forums in the past, but I wanted to get into the details and get some feedback.  In my book, I'm considering starting the story with a dream sequence.  The prologue depicts an incident that happened 20 years before the first chapter, and then the first chapter starts with a dream where the main character sees his sister, who has been dead for three years.  He has been "visiting" this place frequently in his sleep, but the conversations he and his sister have a different every time, and he wonders if it is just a dream, or if his sister's "spirit" is visiting him.  It only last about a page, and then he wakes up in a dropship with his squadmates on their way to a mission, and he realizes that he dozed off.

My intent with this opening is to start to establish the protagonist's emotional struggle and motivation.  It is revealed later that he is sort of "possessed" by a malicious entity, and his dreams often seem like depictions of a struggle between his sister and this being.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I want there to be some sort of manifestation of his sister which he isn't sure whether or not it is real, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea to start the first chapter with a dream in which he is talking to her (note: it is not a memory; the location of the dream is out of his memories, but the conversation is as if she is there talking to him in person, and not a conversation they've had in the past, if that makes sense.)

So I'm just curious as to people's feedback about this idea.  I understand that dream sequences are not very popular, and I myself am not sure I want to go this route, which is why I'm open to feedback, even if it's negative.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Sep 4, 2012)

I'm not necessarily opposed to dream sequences - if it's done well, then fine - but when you've already got a prologue, that seems like too much to get through before actually starting the story. I think I'd pick the one I was more in love with, the dream or the prologue, and do that, but not both.

Could you start off with the MC waking up, and then have him think about or talk about the dream he had?


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## cullmeyer (Sep 4, 2012)

What happens in the subconscious is fascinating to me, and I thoroughly enjoy a dream sequence in literature. Though, I have to say, the dream entrance is a little overdone. I know it's hard, but, it might be worth figuring out a different way for the content of the dream to manifest itself. Maybe, hallucinations while in combat, hearing a voice and conversing with it out loud, etc. Or it could be all of the above. It's ultimately up to you. I find it refreshing when a writer takes something that is normally cliche, and puts a new/fresh spin on it. I know this probably doesn't help much, but that's my two bits.


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## GWJ Baird (Sep 4, 2012)

I think opening with a dream sequence can be good when done right, you seem on the right path,

I do agree however it will be too much with the prologue and the dream, I think readers may 'tune out' as it were,

In my book my prologue IS the dream sequence, is there anyway you could fit it in that way if your intent on having both in?


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## mklemo (Sep 5, 2012)

@lasm: I actually considered that as a possibility.  Thing is, he doesn't really talk to anyone about these things, because he thinks it's better to bear his burdens alone.  But I could still probably find some way to indicate his emotions in reaction to the dream, without actually SHOWING the dream.  There is a part later on where he talks with a sort of "shrink" where this could be brought up.

@cullmeyer: Actually, that was very helpful!  I didn't really consider the possibility of him having hallucinations while he was awake, but that might actually work better! I'll have to explore the possibility and see what works. 

@GWJ Baird: That wouldn't really work.  The prologue is an incident that happened before the MC was born, and is very important to the rest of the story, and I kinda think mixing in a dream with it could disrupt what I'm trying to establish in the prologue.

Now that you guys mention it, having a prologue and _then_ the dream sequence in the first chapter does seem a little... wrong, I guess?  Especially since the prologue takes place years before, from the perspective of the protagonist's father.  There may already be some potential confusion when the perspective suddenly shifts to a different set of characters over 20 years later in the first chapter.
If I have to choose between the prologue and the dream sequence, I'll go with the prologue without hesitation, since it establishes some important details about the world this story takes place in.  The dream sequence is more to establish the main character's emotional struggle, but I feel like it would be better to start off giving details about the world these characters live in first.

Having said that, what if in the first chapter I just jumped right into the action, and then he has the dream (again, he goes to the same place every time he has this dream, but the "conversation" or events that happen in the dream are different every time) in the second chapter or something?  Although, I'm honestly not even sure I want to do that either.  It might be more interesting if he tells a character about it, rather than just showing it in scene.

I do like the idea of him experiencing hallucinations while he's awake, though.  In my mind, that opens up a whole plethora of potential plot twists and such, because even if they are just illusions, they are happening at the same time as real events, rather than just dreams that have no true relevance to the waking world.  I'll have to do lots of brainstorming with this idea.  Could be that he started out just having dreams, and then those dreams started seeping into his waking moments.  At first, he would think that he's just going insane from grief, but as time goes on, he will start to wonder if these really are just hallucinations, or a manifestation of something else going on inside of him.

Man, I need to stop typing, or I'll end up brainstorming the whole thing out right here! XD

Thanks for your feedback, y'all.  Any further comments and feedback would be appreciated.


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## Jeko (Sep 5, 2012)

Dreams are very cliche to begin with.

I would sugest exposing the ideas relating to the dream without actually involving the dream. At least, not right at the beginning.


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## Whisper (Sep 5, 2012)

Dream sequences can be tricky. If done properly it can be great, but not sure if starting a book with one is the right way to go. It’s a lot like watching your favorite sci-fi show on television when they do a time travel episode. Whatever happens you feel cheated because at the end of the episode everything is going to be reset just like it was. It you start the book this way people are going to feel like you’ll do it again or feel like they were cheated.

Maybe consider starting out having him/her talk to themselves to establish what you want.

“What do you think of this one?” Elton Poplar asked his sister holding up a white button-up shirt for her inspection. 
_I like the blue one better. It suits your mood, Missy answered. 
_“That’s my sister. Dead twelve years and knows me better than I know myself.”
_That’s because I’m just a voice in your head.
_“To me, you’ll always be more than that,” he said beginning to button-up the blue shirt. “So, which tie?”




Edited for format.


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## mklemo (Sep 6, 2012)

Well, in the first chapter, he's flying in a dropship with his squadmates, getting ready to help liberate a colony from terrorists, so it might be weird if he's talking to someone only he can see on that part.  However, I do still like the idea of him interacting with her when he's still awake.  It wouldn't be quite as casual as the example you gave, Whisper, but I do appreciate that you _gave_ an example to demonstrate the idea.

I also had an idea where, in addition to that, his dreams are just like any real dream: a collage of various images and sensations that don't necessarily make sense or have any real connection to each other.  However, amidst all of those images, his sister always seems to be there, no matter what he's dreaming about, which is one thing that makes him wonder if, even in death, she is somehow still _in his head_.

I keep seeing people mention that dream sequences can be good as long as they are done right.  My only problem with that is, I don't really know what the "right" way is, which is why I'm still hesitant to use dreams.  A lot of the story and conflict takes place inside of his head, but I wonder if I should resort to dreams for that, or if it would be better to use illusions while he is still technically awake.

I do have one part where he experiences something as if it is a dream, where he sees himself doing something awful but can't seem to control himself, and then when he comes back to his senses, he realizes that he _did_ do it, and it wasn't a dream after all.  This is where he starts to realize that there might be something else inside that has some level of control over him.


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## Terry D (Sep 6, 2012)

The problem with dream sequences to start books is that the reader tends to feel jerked around.  The story starts, then suddenly the author is telling you, "Hey, just kidding.  That was dream.  Now here's the real story."

What you might consider is being up front with the reader about time and place, and then introduce the dream.  Something like this (I apologize in advance for some very bad writing):

_I remember Sargent Kickbutt telling us the first time we went into the dropship sims in boot camp, "Never sleep on a dropship.  The Clarke Field will give you nightmares like you've never had, and, trust me, you don't want to go into battle with a CF hangover."

He was right.  I don't remember feeling tired, but I must have dozed off, because I woke up ten minutes before the drop feeling disoriented and scared by a dream I couldn't quite remember.  Except for Gertrude.  I know Gretrude was there...
_
Then rehash the dream.

Good luck.


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## Jon M (Sep 6, 2012)

The reader wants to feel like he's going forward, that's why you see people wagging their fingers, saying, Oh no, can't do that! But if you choose to begin with a dream, consider jumping to a different, non-linear point in the story once the dream has ended. You could also let the reader think the dream was real for some portion of the book, and then later expose it as such, like in a conversation between friends, i.e., "I've been having these dreams lately. Like, I'm in this other place ..."


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## Kyle R (Sep 6, 2012)

Usually the beginning is where the reader gets a feel for the storyworld, to decide what he or she can expect from the reading experience.

If you start with a dream (and if you do so without telling the reader beforehand that this is a dream), the reader will say, "Okay. This is the storyworld," and he will begin to form expectations (often subconsciously) that he would like to see fulfilled.

Example:

_The story begins with a man in a rowboat on the surface of a deep lake. There is a large creature that keeps circling the boat. The man looks frightened and is clutching his oar as a weapon. He is frantically paddling toward the shore, but the safety of his cottage looms far in the distance.
_
Immediately the reader begins to form the storyworld and his own expectations. The storyquestion becomes apparent: _Will the man make it to his shorefront home, or will the water creature get him?

_This is what the reader now wants to discover. This is why he will continue reading. Now, let's say the story continues, and an epic water-battle begins. The story question on its way to being answered. The reader is engaged.

Suddenly, the story ends abruptly and the main character wakes up, in his bed. He tugs on his pajamas and says, "Oh boy! It's my first day of school!" and he scampers around the room to get dressed.

How will the reader feel? Robbed? Tricked? Frustrated, most likely.

That's one of the problems with beginning with a dream sequence. It's easy to mishandle the storytelling and lose the reader's investment and enjoyment.

In that example, it's theoretically possible to "save" the blunder by having the dream continue throughout the schoolboy's story. Perhaps every time the boy goes to sleep at night, he has the dream continue where it left off: the man's battle on the lake wages on and further explores the story question: _Will he make it to shore before the water-monster gets him?_

But the problem is, once that story ends and the schoolboy's story begins, some readers may instantly leave, and never stick around to see if you bring back the previous thread or not. Not everyone is tolerant of multiple story threads being juggled back and forth.

So, in my opinion, opening with a dream can work, but you're at a risk for losing reader patience. 

Readers like to get invested in a setup and then they want to experience how you pay it off. Everytime you disrupt this process, you risk losing readers.

So if you're going to use it, be aware of the risks! 

In my opinion, it's better to introduce the storyworld first, then add in a new thread, such as a dream sequence, but only after the reader has a firm grasp of what's really going on. Just my two cents. :encouragement:


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## mklemo (Sep 7, 2012)

@Terry D: ... You call that bad writing?  I actually enjoyed reading it, even if it was only a couple of sentences!  That actually almost makes me want to write my story in 1st person, but unfortunately, that wouldn't work since a good chunk of the story is not from the main character's perspective.  Still, I liked your example, and I the idea is a good one.   Thanks!

@Jon M: Well, I think I've pretty much decided I don't want to start with the dream in scene, but I do like the possibility of starting with him waking up right after, and then either showing the same dream later on, or having him talk about it with someone.

@KyleColorado: Your two cents are graciously accepted.   I actually do agree, those types of dreams are incredibly frustrating, because like you said, they set you up for a failed expectation.  I try to make it relatively clear that the "dreams" in my book actually are dreams - without making it seem like they are real, and then saying "SURPRISE! It was all a dream!" - but at the same time, there is something more to them than that, because some of them are manifestations of something trying to communicate with him.  For example, he starts having these strange nightmares that are very vivid, but make little sense, and he eventually discovers that they are events that actually happened in the past, which further leads him to discover that they are the memories of the entity possessing him.

Well anyway, I'm probably ranting too much now.  I think I've definitely decided _not_ to start the first chapter with a dream, especially since there are still some important world details I need to establish that aren't touched on in the prologue.  Plus, I'm starting to think it might be better to show who my protagonist is on the outside before I start giving my readers a look at the inside.


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## Kyle R (Sep 7, 2012)

mklemo said:


> @KyleColorado: Your two cents are graciously accepted.  I actually do agree, those types of dreams are incredibly frustrating, because like you said, they set you up for a failed expectation. I try to make it relatively clear that the "dreams" in my book actually are dreams - without making it seem like they are real, and then saying "SURPRISE! It was all a dream!" - but at the same time, there is something more to them than that, because some of them are manifestations of something trying to communicate with him. For example, he starts having these strange nightmares that are very vivid, but make little sense, and he eventually discovers that they are events that actually happened in the past, which further leads him to discover that they are the memories of the entity possessing him.
> 
> Well anyway, I'm probably ranting too much now. I think I've definitely decided _not_ to start the first chapter with a dream, especially since there are still some important world details I need to establish that aren't touched on in the prologue. Plus, I'm starting to think it might be better to show who my protagonist is on the outside before I start giving my readers a look at the inside.



I like your last paragraph. I think that's the most successful plan of action.

Also, I have to be honest, your story sounds very interesting.


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## mklemo (Sep 7, 2012)

KyleColorado said:


> I like your last paragraph. I think that's the most successful plan of action.
> 
> Also, I have to be honest, your story sounds very interesting.



Thanks!  It's still got a ways to go, but I'm making progress.  I'm hoping I can start getting it published within a year or two, and I'll probably make a post on here about it once that happens.


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## TheFuhrer02 (Sep 9, 2012)

Interesting, I usually hear having the dream sequence revealed at the end of the story, pulling of a TheEndingChangesEverything technique to create a MindScrew effect.

Hmm... Ever heard of Nolan's _Memento_? In that movie, the protagonist has two views, the normal one (normal chronological flow - present to future), then it shifts to a hindsight sort of view come in the half of the movie.

You told Kyle about how:



mklemo said:


> ... it might be better to show who my protagonist is on the outside before I start giving my readers a look at the inside.



I'd disagree with this if you do push through with beginning the story with a dream sequence. Here me out:

1. You start with a dream sequence. This means you can distort the environment but still make it look realistic, let the protagonist interpret all these as reality.
2. Significant events happen in the dream sequence that will tell the reader who the protagonist is "on the outside".
3. Protagonist is awakened through a trigger, then he goes to "real life", revealing that what he is on the dream is opposite of what he is in reality.
4. End the story with the reader questioning his idea of which is truly real with the protagonist.

Something like that. Sounds weird, but I don't know. *shrug* I like your plan if you were to end with the dream sequence, like an AllJustADream technique, but if you were to pursue the plan on the original post on beginning with a dream sequence, it may be better to push the boundaries a bit and go with something like what I've shown you, which may not be necessarily similar. 

The wonderful thing about starting with a dream sequence is that you can now play with a lot of plots without compromising how your protagonist is portrayed. With this plot device, you can create an OrWasItADream ending, which would look way cooler, if you can pull it off successfully.

P.S. Check this plot devices for additional help: SchrodingersButterfly, ThroughTheEyesOfMadness


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## garza (Sep 9, 2012)

I remember getting in trouble for throwing a copy of _Pincher Martin_ the length of the main reading room at the university library. That's how I feel about dream sequences and related techniques.


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## mklemo (Sep 11, 2012)

@TheFuhrer02: Well, this isn't really supposed to be one of those "Was the whole thing a dream?" stories.  It's more about using dreams as a way to hint at certain things that are otherwise kept secret from the protagonist (such as the past of the thing possessing him), but otherwise the story is very "solid" and "real", so to speak.  For this particular story, I'd rather ultimately leave the reader with a sense of closure, rather than wondering whether or not anything in the story actually happened.
And again, I've pretty decided that NOT starting with a dream sequence is better, and any dreams I use will be few and far between.  Heck, I'm even considering just not using dreams at all, but instead resorting to illusions and hallucinations while the character is still awake.  Personally, I think that might be more interesting, since it would be happening along with real events.

I actually have seen "Memento".  Good movie, but a little hard to follow.  Still, I think Nolan is my favorite director.


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## TheFuhrer02 (Sep 12, 2012)

mklemo said:


> And again, I've pretty decided that NOT starting with a dream sequence is better, and any dreams I use will be few and far between.  Heck, I'm even considering just not using dreams at all, but instead resorting to illusions and hallucinations while the character is still awake.  Personally, I think that might be more interesting, since it would be happening along with real events.



Nice! Illusions would be really cool. :thumbl:

Just asking: would this be like some sort of Silent Hill or Amnesia approach?



mklemo said:


> Still, I think Nolan is my favorite director.



Hard to argue with that.


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## RichardScribe (Sep 12, 2012)

I recently finished a novel (and am currently chewing my fingers down to the palms waiting to hear back on queries) that begins with a three-paragraph dream sequence. (They are short paragraphs) but I felt it was needed to help introduce the MC and foreshadowed the story (mystery). 

I am hoping there is not some publishing taboo against dream sequences at the start. :nightmare:


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## TheFuhrer02 (Sep 12, 2012)

^ No, there isn't, as far as I know.


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## RichardScribe (Sep 12, 2012)

TheFuhrer02 said:


> ^ No, there isn't, as far as I know.



Whew, that's a relief. Had this sudden vision of copies of my sample chapters hitting the bottom of several trash cans back east just three graphs in as the readers exclaim aloud "An f-ing dream sequence????"



Now back to chewing away on the fingers......


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## mklemo (Sep 12, 2012)

@TheFuhrer02: I'm not really familiar with either of those.  I've heard of Silent Hill, but I've never actually played it, though I know it's some kind of psychological horror game.  My book is a futuristic sci-fi, and the plot is very action-and-character-driven, and I'm trying to make everything in the story sound at least somewhat plausible, scientifically speaking.  The closest thing I could draw any comparisons to would probably be the movie _Final Fantasy: the Spirits Within_, at least as far as the setting and the type of technology in the world and things like that.  I don't know if that answers your question, lol.

@RichardScribe: I'm pretty sure it isn't taboo.  It's just that it's used a lot, which is why it isn't popular with a lot of people.  But, like any cliche, if you can pull it off effectively, and if it is actually essential to plot and doesn't hinder it in any way, then I think it can still work.  I think that's the main reason why dream sequences aren't popular, because they tend to pause the story.  But there can be cases where they move the story forward.  I actually think _Final Fantasy: the Spirits Within_ is a perfect example of that, because the dreams the main character was having turned out to be the aliens telling her what happened to their planet before they ended up on Earth.  It was a relevant point to the plot, and therefore I didn't think it hindered the story at all.  So as long as your own dream sequence has some essential point to make in the plot, and you don't see any better alternatives, then I say go for it.


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## RichardScribe (Sep 12, 2012)

mklemo said:


> So as long as your own dream sequence has some essential point to make in the plot, and you don't see any better alternatives, then I say go for it.



That was what I was aiming for when I put it in. Hopefully, especially by keeping it very short, I was able to do that. We'll see.


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## Newman (Sep 12, 2012)

mklemo said:


> but I'm not sure if it's a good idea to start the first chapter with a dream in which he is talking to her



_Romancing The Stone_ starts with a dream sequence.


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## AZzed (Sep 13, 2012)

Apparently publishers don't like novels that open with the weather, with the mc waking up, with a prologue, _or with a dream_ I'm afraid. I believe it's because prologues/dreams tend to be used as info dumps. Obviously, when you're published you can basically do what you like, but if you're trying to get a debut novel accepted it's going to be tricky to sell a novel that opens with a dream sequence unfortunately.


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## RichardScribe (Sep 13, 2012)

AZzed said:


> Apparently publishers don't like novels that open with the weather, with the mc waking up, with a prologue, _or with a dream_ I'm afraid. I believe it's because prologues/dreams tend to be used as info dumps. Obviously, when you're published you can basically do what you like, but if you're trying to get a debut novel accepted it's going to be tricky to sell a novel that opens with a dream sequence unfortunately.



Even a very short, three paragraph, 120-word dream sequence? I was hoping the brevity of it would cut me some slack.


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## AZzed (Sep 13, 2012)

RichardScribe said:


> Even a very short, three paragraph, 120-word dream sequence? I was hoping the brevity of it would cut me some slack.



I'm not sure, Richard, I can only pass on the information I've come across over the years. Publishers don't like novels to start with a dream sequence. What happens in that dream sequence?


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## RichardScribe (Sep 13, 2012)

AZzed said:


> I'm not sure, Richard, I can only pass on the information I've come across over the years. Publishers don't like novels to start with a dream sequence. What happens in that dream sequence?



Figured I would just post it and see what you thought. It is a murder mystery set in the Southwest U.S. around three Native American Reservations. The story goes into depth the legends and spiritualism of the three tribes. Here is the opening four graphs:
_
             A raven-haired woman, her face unseen, running through the evergreen trees and heavy snow that lay on the ground between their trunks for all she was worth, and yet still so painfully slow. Her four-legged pursuer - whether a wolf, coyote or wild dog is unknown  - relentlessly closes in on her, the trees and snow posing no barrier between it and its prey. __She knows, without looking behind, that it is futile and yet still she runs, hoping against hope for a miracle; hoping that help will still yet arrive, to save her from a terrible fate._ _It does not._
_ 
The hunter closes the gap mercilessly and leaps for the kill. Seeming to sense her time has run out the mysterious woman turns to face her fate, her face blocked from view by the leaping mass of fur and snapping jaws.__ Her last word is a name and a plea all in one._
_ 
"Jaaaacccckkk……."_

Jack Del Rio sat bolt upright in his bed, his hand easily finding the Glock on his bedside stand in the darkened room and leveled the weapon on…. absolutely nothing. No mystery woman, no canine hunter, no trees or snow. Just a warm, and very dry, tenth-floor flat in Washington D.C., empty save for the spartan furniture and belongings of an FBI agent bathed in sweat and breathing hard from the nightmare he'd just escaped.


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## RichardScribe (Sep 13, 2012)

Jack is the MC and he meets a woman who matches the description of the woman in the nightmare. The coyote, a main legend of the Navajo, plays a large role in the story as well.


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## RichardScribe (Sep 13, 2012)

Anyone else want to jump in and share your thoughts, please feel free.


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## Kyle R (Sep 13, 2012)

Something interesting:

Forensics & Faith: Writing the Dream Sequence


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## RichardScribe (Sep 14, 2012)

KyleColorado said:


> Something interesting:
> 
> Forensics & Faith: Writing the Dream Sequence




Will do. Anyone else?


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