# More personal opions on metal/punk bands, especially from the 70's/80's



## goreycat (Aug 13, 2019)

I'm looking for anyone that would be willing to chat about metal and/or punk bands. Specifically, links between bands and styles and a more personalized sort of 'if characters likes these bands, they'd probably like these as well', and also less big name/underrated bands from the late 70's to mid 80's.

I have one character in their mid 60's, lived in the bay area most of their life, who is very into metal and to a slightly lesser degree, punk. A second character is in their late teens and has an appreciate of classic bands of those styles, but not a lot of depth of knowledge. I'd really like to have a conversation or two between them, with the older doing some teasing of the younger (in a kind way) and also doing some suggesting of things for them to explore. And maybe another conversation where they have some disagreement about how a certain song or band is clearly superior. 

While I can get lists of bands and 'you might also like' lists from online, they're pretty general and don't go into much of the why/what of it all. Personally, I enjoy these music genres, but haven't focused on them as much as others, so my level is a little bit beyond the younger characters, but not by a lot. 

Thank you!


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## Aquilo (Aug 14, 2019)

Bay area... so the US and lesser-known metal/punk from there? Or are you going wider afield too, with metal/punk from other countries...?


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## seigfried007 (Aug 14, 2019)

Talk to old metalheads. They probably have their own forums, and are pretty much universally drawn to discuss music with anyone who will listen, in my experience. Music people love music and talking about it. 

There are a bajillion types of rock and metal. That's one of the first things I learned in the metal scene--subgenres. Some fans are really into naming subgenres (especially if they're musicians themselves). There's death metal, heavy metal, nu metal, folk metal, epic metal, there's the opera and orchestral metals... it gets complicated. 

Don't just look into lists of "you might like"--look up the bands, find documentaries and books on them, at the very least, look 'em up on wikipedia. 

Everyone defines metal a little differently, so one fan's metal is another's rock. Do look into foreign bands because a lot of modern metal comes from countries other than the US--especially Germany, Scandinavia, Brazil (from what I've gathered).

Older line metal might include Guns N Roses, Judas Priest (Painkiller is widely hailed as the Metal National Anthem), Pantera, Metallica (you'll find big divisions in the Metallica fanbase regarding newer vs older stuff--and you'll know why when you listen to it and look at pictures of the band), Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Slayer, Ministry, Tool. Many of these bands are still going. 

Nu metal includes Limp Bizkit and Korn. Not sure about Slipknot.

Folk metal includes Blind Guardian, probably Wind Roses

Newer metal might include Epica, Kamelot, Jinjer, Nightwish, Sirenia. You might also find anyone from FiXT (Celldwaller, Blue Stahli, Qemists), Season of Mist (including Heilung, which is chucked in with metal despite not having much in common with metal--or even having much metal in the band), and Napalm Records.  Metal bands get signed by similar labels, so look into who's producing said bands to find other bands and lesser known ones you or the characters might like. 

Expect some big divisions in the fanbase regarding the best metal bands and whether or not someone is classified as metal or into which subgenre they belong.


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## seigfried007 (Aug 14, 2019)

Here's Loudwire's list of the 50 most influential metal bands

Here's a Top 150 from Metal Storm


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## Winston (Aug 14, 2019)

Big difference between "punk" and "metal (heavy metal)" bands.  Toattly different worlds.  

I saw The Dead Kenedys (punk) at the Petaluma, CA veterans hall, circa 1982.  There were 170 of us.  I was 15 at the time.  I remember a big, older kid being really supportive and trying to get me to slam dance.  We were united in Anarchy.
I was heavy into Black Flag and Circle Jerks as well, even though they were LA based.  I still think Henry Rollins is the shiat.  

I saw Iron Maiden at Candlestick Park in San Francisco, later that year.  There were 40,000 there.  All everyone was doing was smoking, drinking and headbanging.  Fun, but it gets old.  

My wife was a good girl, and thought SF native Huey Lewis was a "rocker".  

Politics and culture intersect heavily into rock.  The harder the rock, the rougher the merge. 
An old Punk is a revolutionary that refused to give up.  An old Metal head is a partier that refused to grow up.


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## seigfried007 (Aug 14, 2019)

Winston said:


> Big difference between "punk" and "metal (heavy metal)" bands.  Toattly different worlds.
> 
> I saw The Dead Kenedys (punk) at the Petaluma, CA veterans hall, circa 1982.  There were 170 of us.  I was 15 at the time.  I remember a big, older kid being really supportive and trying to get me to slam dance.  We were united in Anarchy.
> I was heavy into Black Flag and Circle Jerks as well, even though they were LA based.  I still think Henry Rollins is the shiat.
> ...



I'm not very good with "punk", but I haven't found them "revolutionary". It's just a different style to me, and not one I especially liked because I'm prone to migraines. The higher pitch is actually more likely to set off the headaches than most metal even (but anything with brass--that's the real killer, as much as I like old jazz, swing and big band). 

Not sure if Green Day, Dropkick Murphy's and Flogging Molly qualify as "punk". Partial to the latter two, but they do give me headaches. 

I take exception to the "old metalheads" comment, even though I'm not much of a metalhead. I've met some great old metalheads--true blue audiophiles--and they've all held down normal jobs and can pass as normal people most of the time. Some of the most clean cut professional people I've ever met were true blue metalheads as soon as they were off the clock. They'll get a haircut to keep the job, but you can't take the metal out of their souls for love nor money.


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## KenTR (Aug 14, 2019)

I know very little about metal, but I'd be able to chat you up when it comes to the punk stuff, particularly during the period you mentioned. I was 17 in 1980, so the whole thing had a profound effect on me. 

Also, all those ultra-obscure, one-record acts...don't get me started! I could talk for hours.

In fact, I'm writing something right now about a bunch of punk rock kids who live in 1986 Kansas. _Kansas_ for Christ's sake! You just know something's going to go very wrong. Anyway, the alternative punk culture of the time plays a big role, with some chatter about the Bay Area bands, whom I am very fond of. The story concludes in Long Beach, so I'm wondering if one of these kids might end up running into your character! No need to worry, though. They're harmless. Except for Craig, and he's taken off for Mexico.


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## Winston (Aug 14, 2019)

> Not sure if Green Day, Dropkick Murphy's and Flogging Molly qualify as "punk".


At their best,, Green Day was a pretentious poser band hiding safely behind pop-liberalism, riding happily on the tails of bands with talent and depth.  
The Dropkick Murphys weren't as edgy (Pipebomb in Landsdowne being an exception).  But they were fun as hec.  Flogging Molly just makes a guy wanna drink.  

Did not mean to throw that much shade at metal.  This is a case of Apples and Oranges.  Real Punk is not just political, it is a-political and anti-political.  It is anti-social.  It's supposed to make your head hurt.  It's also supposed to make you think. 
I enjoy metal, simple hard rock more so.  Rock gets political, but the base is in the music, not so much the message.  I mentioned Iron Maiden.  "Run to The Hills" was brilliant; In Your Face socio / political shaming.  But from my bunker, that is much more the exception than the rule with most "rock".  Including metal.   
There was an old idiom amongst punk rockers:  Once you made it big, you're a sellout and your work is trash.  GDIAF.  
Whereas, the goal of most hard rockers IS to make it big.  Change the message to make your fans buy your product.  Grow, adapt and expand your artistry.  
"Hope I Die Before I Get Old"  "Better to Burn Out, Than Fade Away"?  With all due respect, really?     

In Contrast:  Dead Kenedys "Holliday in Cambodia", "California Uber Alles".  
                   Circle Jerks "Making the Bombs", "Killing for Jesus"
                   Black Flag "Six Pack", "TV Party"   
                   Anything from Public Enemy
If you want lighter, more fun punk, try a band called The Coup (out of Oakland, CA).  A billion times more punk than Green Day.  Smart, and easy on the ears.  "Laugh, Love, F**k and Drink Liquor".  

But it's all an acquired taste.  I love cilantro, some folks say it tastes like soap.  Go figure.


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## seigfried007 (Aug 14, 2019)

Winston said:


> But it's all an acquired taste.  I love cilantro, some folks say it tastes like soap.  Go figure.



I can no longer remember what it is about cilantro that does that. Some people literally have different taste perceptions for it, but I can't remember if it's the tasters or not-tasters that have the mutation. My dad and I have the "cilantro tastes like nasty dish water" set of genes though, so yeah.. we hate it passionately. 

Glad to know I hated Green Day for a reason. They just seemed insipid, lacking in depth, and I just didn't like the sound anyway. I've never really been a good anarchist, so I guess that might be why punk just came off as juvenile (that and not bumping into the right bands and songs, apparently)

A lot of metal resorts to storytelling (possibly because the artists can't think of anything better to say anymore), but there are more political songs. Metallica used to make a lot of good war songs, socio-commentary even. Tool still makes a lot of political, socio- and religious stuff. Some call them metal, and others call them rock and leave it at that. They're still one of the best bands ever, imho.


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## Rojack79 (Aug 15, 2019)

Let's see, Love Linkin Park, Green Day, Rise Against The Machine, Avenged Sevenfold, Disturbed, Metallica, And Dragon Force. All are great and all are still around today and relevant.


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## seigfried007 (Aug 15, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> Let's see, Love Linkin Park, Green Day, Rise Against The Machine, Avenged Sevenfold, Disturbed, Metallica, And Dragon Force. All are great and all are still around today and relevant.



Vert dee Ferk? _Rise Against the Machine?_ Do you mean_ Rage_ Against the Machine? Half of Linkin Park is dead. Rage Against the Machine broke up.


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## Rojack79 (Aug 15, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> Vert dee Ferk? _Rise Against the Machine?_ Do you mean_ Rage_ Against the Machine? Half of Linkin Park is dead. Rage Against the Machine broke up.
> 
> View attachment 24187



I actually ment Rise Against. They are still around I believe and yes it is sad to see what has become of Rage and Linkin.


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## seigfried007 (Aug 15, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> I actually ment Rise Against. They are still around I believe and yes it is sad to see what has become of Rage and Linkin.



I'd wondered if it was accidental portmanteau of Rise Against and Rage Against the Machine. Makes me want mashups because it's already a great title for a collaboration band!


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## Winston (Aug 15, 2019)

And the OP specifically set the time frame in the 1970s and 80s. 

Guys like Frank Zappa get no love from this generation.  The man was whip smart, a social savage and bent the strings with the best of them.  Testified in Congress against censorship.  
But they all know Aerosmith and AC / DC.   Dude.


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## seigfried007 (Aug 15, 2019)

Winston said:


> And the OP specifically set the time frame in the 1970s and 80s.
> 
> Guys like Frank Zappa get no love from this generation.  The man was whip smart, a social savage and bent the strings with the best of them.  Testified in Congress against censorship.
> But they all know Aerosmith and AC / DC.   Dude.



Audiophiles come in two basic flavors: 1) people who continue broadening their horizons and listening to new music, and 2) people who stop listening to new music and prefer to never grow up, perpetually stuck in their golden ages of youth. I've seen a lot of both in every fandom of music. A metalhead from the 70-80's era may still listen to newer music. I can't tell you how many people I've met in the 60-90 age range who have continued listening to new music and love some newer bands (especially in the Tool fandom). 

I've heard of Zappa and probably listened to him without realizing it. I grew up on rock from that era, but I never learned a lot of the band names or who did which song (unless it was a band my dad bought albums of instead of passively listening to on the radio). My dad wan't into that era of punk or metal though, so my exposure was minimal. I got into rock as a teenager, and I've been exploring metal far more recently. YouTube has done wonders to expand my horizons--and I've had wide tastes a long time. 

Sadly, until recently, a lot of what people listen to was based on radio, and this meant that a lot of the really hard-hitting excellent bands didn't get airtime. Yeah, they were great, but they were polarizing. They weren't insipid and milquetoast and lowest common denominator to get that airtime, which is all about maximizing audience and therefore catering to a presumed majority of people in an area. It's really sad because there were so many amazing bands that were denied the airtime. 

For instance, in the 90s when I started listening to alternative rock station (the only one in the area), what hooked me was actually Nine Inch Nails "Closer", Metallica's "Until It Sleeps", Tool's "Sober" and Seven Mary Three's "Water's Edge". Prior to that, I'd mostly listened to pop and hip hop because it's what everyone else my age listened to and what I got to hear on the bus to school. Those songs rocked my world--it was a whole new world of music. Not my dad's relatively bland classic rock preferences but something that felt controversial, graphic, meaningful, emotional. It was like taking a musical brick to the face--and I loved it.

Now that station's been bought out by some national conglomerate. It doesn't play that stuff hardly ever--if ever. It's soooooo bland by comparison. About the hardest thing they play is Linkin Park reruns from the early 2000s. It's more like the elevator music equivalent of rock because it's built for mass appeal--and not bricking people to the face.


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## Rojack79 (Aug 15, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> Audiophiles come in two basic flavors: 1) people who continue broadening their horizons and listening to new music, and 2) people who stop listening to new music and prefer to never grow up, perpetually stuck in their golden ages of youth. I've seen a lot of both in every fandom of music. A metalhead from the 70-80's era may still listen to newer music. I can't tell you how many people I've met in the 60-90 age range who have continued listening to new music and love some newer bands (especially in the Tool fandom).
> 
> I've heard of Zappa and probably listened to him without realizing it. I grew up on rock from that era, but I never learned a lot of the band names or who did which song (unless it was a band my dad bought albums of instead of passively listening to on the radio). My dad wan't into that era of punk or metal though, so my exposure was minimal. I got into rock as a teenager, and I've been exploring metal far more recently. YouTube has done wonders to expand my horizons--and I've had wide tastes a long time.
> 
> ...



Brick to the face!!!! For me I grew up in the nineties era but i love 50's music. Now back to the nineties. For me my personal brick's to the face were Dragon Force, Sonata Arctica, Within Temptation, Beethoven, and, Frank Sinatra.  All of there music has had an impact on  my life in one way or another.


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## KenTR (Aug 16, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> I'm not very good with "punk", but I haven't found them "revolutionary".



Punk rock itself wasn't revolutionary. It actually kinda sucked. But what it did was re-introduce the DIY concept to a whole new generation. _That's_ what was revolutionary.


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## Trollheart (Aug 28, 2019)

Sounds like you need to talk to my friends at Music Banter. Head over there and ask for the Batlord (he's changed his name since I left, but they'll know who you mean). Just don't put any dinner on because the guy will talk to you about metal till he drops, but hell he's a fount of knowledge. Tell him I sent ya. Oh no wait, don't... :lol:


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## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord (Sep 2, 2019)

Winston said:


> Politics and culture intersect heavily into rock.  The harder the rock, the rougher the merge.
> An old Punk is a revolutionary that refused to give up.  An old Metal head is a partier that refused to grow up.



It's true that metal has less of a political focus, but I listen to almost exclusively metal and I've _never _got the impression that it's just about partying and having fun. It's almost the antithesis to that, honestly. Yeah there are those bands like Guns n' Roses, but I view them the way you as a punk would view Green Day. Mythology, religion, storytelling, that's the scope of metal. 

The difference in concert feel does have to do with the number. At AudioFeed festival I saw both punk and metal bands, all probably with crowds under 100. The biggest different in culture/style I could note is that punk is very grounded and human (the word 'anarchy, which I associate with political movements and the attack on social norms, is appropriate). Metal, on the other hand, ups the aggression to 11, and feels more spiritual and often otherworldly (here, the word 'chaos,' although in dictionary definition meaning about the same thing as anarchy, is more appropriate, because it calls to mind gods, monsters, universes). But in both, you're united in the intensity of the music.

So to the OP:

Satan is a lesser-known but very good 80s metal band. Alone in the Dark (which got rendered Alone in the Dock by some accident) is a masterpiece. Another, slightly better known, is Savatage. Both these have a similar style to Judas Priest and Iron Maiden, with mostly fantasy lyrics. They're the kind of band your older character might know about that your younger one is unaware of--not famous enough to have songs playing on Classic Rock radio, but not so obscure that it would seem odd to have characters know about them. 

Another one is Saint (Disclaimer: they are a Christian band, and thus veery obscure and underrated. Don't know if it would make sense for your characters to be listening to them, but I thought I'd mention them because they're from California.) 

If you're looking for more extreme, underground stuff, Bathory, Venom, and Sodom (black metal. Sodom later turned into a thrash metal band, but the other two sparked the genre) were already coming out with stuff in the 80s. 80s death metal is a thing, too, but I'm less acquainted with it.

I'm probably as clueless as you when it comes to punk. Rancid, Dead Kennedys, Sex Pistols, Bad Brains? The Crucified is another weird Christian band I'm into, but they're more crossover.

As to the why, I'd suggest listening to some of the music and getting a feel.


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## Winston (Sep 2, 2019)

> I'm probably as clueless as you when it comes to punk. Rancid, Dead Kennedys, Sex Pistols, Bad Brains?



Per the OP:
Rancid was a 1990's band, Sex Pistols are from England and Bad Brains was an East Coast band (circa 1977).   
The DK's were the only band you listed that was both 1980's and California.  But there were many others.  One of the best in terms of representing the genre was a band called "Victim's Family" (1984) from my home town of Santa Rosa, CA.  They focused on a diverse / fusion style that defied labels.  Northern California was always a stew pot of hippies, bohemians and counter-culture anarchists.   They captured that vibe.  

And I am clueless when it comes to throat singing and playing at 600 beats per minute.  But if you have any Punk Rock questions, I should be able to help.


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## BornForBurning (Sep 2, 2019)

If you are specifically interested in Bay area metal, 80s bay thrash was arguably the peak of that scene's talent. Death Angel and Megadeth would be my personal favorites. Any old fart in the bay area who was into metal is gonna know about them. Kill 'em All by Lars Ulrich and the greasy gang is pretty good too.


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## undead_av (Sep 3, 2019)

> Kill 'em All by Lars Ulrich and the greasy gang is pretty good too.



SSDSPFSDFFD


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## Trollheart (Sep 3, 2019)

undead_av said:


> SSDSPFSDFFD


Took the words right out of my mouth! :lol:


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