# Writing: What You Want to Write, What the Masses Want, or What You're Good At?



## BeastlyBeast (Jul 25, 2014)

Hey, guys. I just had an intriguing thought (at least intriguing to myself. Heh!) I was wondering what you thought would be the best thing to try and write, what you want to write, what would make you the most money, or what you can write well? Right off the bat most of you would probably say what you want to write. But, what about scenarios such as this; suppose I would love to write a fantasy story - I outline it, create the characters, and everything, but I ust can't write it... there's just something about it where the words don't come together, the plot's too thin, the characters are too stock or uninteresting, something or multiple things get in the way of me writing a good fantasy story. But, suppose in the midst of trying to write fantasy, I learn that, even though I don't care much for the genre, I can write psychological horror thrillers really well? Obviously there's a certain desire out there for both genres, but one I _want_ to write but _can't_, and the other i _don't _want to write but _can_... hypothetically which one would you think is the better choice?


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## Smith (Jul 25, 2014)

BeastlyBeast said:


> Hey, guys. I just had an intriguing thought (at least intriguing to myself. Heh!) I was wondering what you thought would be the best thing to try and write, what you want to write, what would make you the most money, or what you can write well? Right off the bat most of you would probably say what you want to write. But, what about scenarios such as this; suppose I would love to write a fantasy story - I outline it, create the characters, and everything, but I ust can't write it... there's just something about it where the words don't come together, the plot's too thin, the characters are too stock or uninteresting, something or multiple things get in the way of me writing a good fantasy story. But, suppose in the midst of trying to write fantasy, I learn that, even though I don't care much for the genre, I can write psychological horror thrillers really well? Obviously there's a certain desire out there for both genres, but one I _want_ to write but _can't_, and the other i _don't _want to write but _can_... hypothetically which one would you think is the better choice?



Hmm... First of all, write what you want to write. Do it for yourself with purpose and meaning.

Maybe try writing a psychological thriller fantasy? Don't be bound by expectations and genres. Your only limit is your imagination.


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## bookmasta (Jul 25, 2014)

I don't know if this hypothetically possible unless taking in some sort of life experience or one area of expertise rather than the other. In this case, however, unless you have read a decent amount of books in either of said genres or delved into research, I don't see how you could be better in one than the other. At the core, your prose, plot development, and all other mechanics of writing are the same no matter what genre you're writing and just because you're trying a different one doesn't mean you'll be better at it. You'll just have a different plot with a different theme. Secondly, go for what you're passionate about, otherwise you may not last to see your book to the final stages of production. And when it comes to money...I wish. Lastly, before I forget to add this, usually you're best at writing what you're most passionate about since you are more likely to adept in said field.


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## popsprocket (Jul 25, 2014)

Write the psych thriller if you can. I like to write fantasy too, but I wrote a real world/drama book as a challenge to myself and it was a great learning experience, not to mention it was surprisingly easy. Writing outside of 'your' genre will always be beneficial to you in some way.

That said, write what you like. If you can come up with a psych thriller plot that you like, then write it. 

There's something very obvious about a story that the writer enjoyed writing. Something that has been written to cash in or to please some specific audience always has this facetious undertone that you can't get rid of.


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## aj47 (Jul 25, 2014)

When I saw the subject, I thought the post would simply say:

_Pick any two._


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## shadowwalker (Jul 25, 2014)

I have found that the things I can write either are or turn out to be the things I enjoy writing - ie, I enjoy writing well. So, while I may continue to work on learning how to write what I want but can't yet, I definitely would write the things I write well - because I enjoy that.


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## T.S.Bowman (Jul 25, 2014)

The fallacy in your example is that you will _always_ be ABLE to write what you really _want_ to write. You may have doubts about whether your writing is good enough for the story you want to tell. That happens to me all the time. But, if you really want to write that story, you will work to get better until you are good enough to say what you want to.

If you truly want to write a certain story, nothing will stop you from doing so.


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## PiP (Jul 25, 2014)

BeastlyBeast said:


> Obviously there's a certain desire out there for both genres, but one I _want_ to write but _can't_, and the other i _don't _want to write but _can_... hypothetically which one would you think is the better choice?



Good question B. The answer depends on the "why" and whether your heart rules your head.


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## Plasticweld (Jul 25, 2014)

If you are a public speaker would you rather speak to an over flowing auditorium or one that is empty? 

 I do know that if you invited to speak at "How to succeed in a business seminar," and all you talk about is your vacation (because that is what you are passionate about)  you will have a very disappointed audience.


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## Jeko (Jul 25, 2014)

What you want to write - when I'm drafting

What would make you the most money - when I'm editing for publication

What you can write well - when I have a deadline


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## garza (Jul 25, 2014)

I write what I'm commissioned to write. If a magazine publisher, government agency, or NGO asks for an article or paper on a certain topic, then I go to work, research that topic, and write what's needed. If I want to sell what I write, then I must write what will sell.

As for fiction, I write whatever I want to write, however I want to write it, because fiction is a hobby and the fiction I write is not for the market. That does not mean I do not take fiction writing seriously. Learning to write fiction has become an important part of my life and I put all my experience as a writer to work to produce the best stories that are possible for me to write. 

If I were a young person looking to write fiction for a living then I would research the market and start writing in a genre most likely to sell. Whether my personal taste matched the market demand would not be relevant. As a professional writer, a craftsman skilled with the use of words, I should be able to write what is needed to be written and make no apologies. With the beginning of a track record established the next step would be to find an agent to give advice about what and how to write and to flog what I write in the marketplace. 

When a shoemaker  makes shoes to sell he does not make shoes to suit himself. He makes shoes to fit the customer's feet and suit the customer's taste. Any good crafts person works that way.


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## Morkonan (Jul 25, 2014)

BeastlyBeast said:


> Hey, guys. I just had an intriguing thought (at least intriguing to myself. Heh!) I was wondering what you thought would be the best thing to try and write, what you want to write, what would make you the most money, or what you can write well? ...



Yes.


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## BeastlyBeast (Jul 25, 2014)

Hmm, lots of interesting answers. I think the reason I proposed the example in my OP is because, even though you are right - writing a book's process is similar regardless of the story - I think I had complexity in mind. A complex fantasy story told in the limited third-person view of multiple characters with different yet connected story lines being told throughout is much more complex than a thriller, where the object seems to be to scare, rather than tell a full, fleshed-out story with 'elaborate' and 'complex' in mind. Maybe my "root" question is something more along the lines of, should one write simpler, even though something more complex might be what they're more passionate about, which, depending on one's skill, the question kinda answers itself.


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## Morkonan (Jul 25, 2014)

BeastlyBeast said:


> ... - I think I had complexity in mind. A complex fantasy story told in the limited third-person view of multiple characters with different yet connected story lines being told throughout is much more complex than a thriller, where the object seems to be to scare, rather than tell a full, fleshed-out story with 'elaborate' and 'complex' in mind. ...



Let's examine that notion!

(By the way, if you can find it, there's a wonderful interview with Alfred Hitchcock regarding his ideas on horror and cinemaaaaah... Closely related to your "thriller" notion.)

What does a writer of "thrillers" have to do? Writing a thriller is all about building tension through threat, uncertainty and risk. But, that's much like a "drama", isn't it? So, the thriller has some additional components... but they're not always the same. Certainly, there's usually a dire threat, something more personal than the average drama. Thrillers often involve an existential threat. People die in thrillers! They get shot, chased through dangerous intersections, hunted by terrible men with big knives and harsh dispositions..

But, moving through a thriller, you generally see a rise in threat, but the vehicle is tension and uncertainty. The hero moves through the old door, uncertain of what awaits. He cautiously makes his way up the stairs and then there's a loud creak and a crash as the support for one of the stairs drops to the floor! He must get to the third-floor! There's a something-something there that he needs. If he doesn't get there, he'll be killed. But, he knows there's a terrible guardian that must be faced. He can't go back! He waits, he listens. Just as he is about to take his next step, there's a noise from above. Is it the guardian stirring? Is it on the second floor? The third? Is it here? IT'S BEHIND HIM!

Writing well is hard. It doesn't matter what genre it is. "Complexity" of plot, setting, character development... All of these are simply story-specific. Bilbo's adventures in "The Hobbit", intended for children, are not "complex." But, it's a rich tale, nonetheless. In "The Lord of the Rings", the complexity ramps up quite a bit, but _only_ in the Setting. The rest of it is very simple. Yet, it's an extremely rich tale, full of wonderful things.

You will never write "simple", even if you're writing a gradeschool yarn. Every creaky step requires complexity. It's just that "writing well" often hides the artistic complexity of crafting an entertaining and rich story. You will use complex tools to tell even the most simple of stories well.

But, writing what you love makes all those complex tasks much easier.


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## Kyle R (Jul 25, 2014)

So, you _want_ to write complex Fantasies, because you enjoy them. But, you feel that you struggle at writing them.

You _don't_ want to write Thrillers, because you don't enjoy them. But, you feel that you excel at writing them.

You struggle at writing what you _enjoy_, and you excel at writing what you _don't_ enjoy.

I can definitely see the emotional problems this could create!

It could come down to a matter of expectations. When I'm writing a fluff piece (that is, a work that I don't really care too much about, or a piece I don't have much invested in), the words tend to come out of me very easily. I'm not overly concerned with quality, so I feel freer to experiment, to trust my instincts, to try new things.

When I'm writing something I care about, the words tend to come out harder. I begin questioning myself. I concern myself with the quality of what I'm doing ("What if this isn't good enough????").

One solution I've found is to train myself to let go of expectations and just write what I enjoy. I save my "Is this good enough?" questioning for the REVISION STAGE, which is, I wait until after I've written THE END before I allow myself to criticize my work.

Maybe that might help? :encouragement:


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## Bishop (Jul 25, 2014)

BeastlyBeast said:


> Obviously there's a certain desire out there for both genres, but one I _want_ to write but _can't_, and the other i _don't _want to write but _can_... hypothetically which one would you think is the better choice?



There is no inherent fault in anyone's use a genre. I suck at writing historical fiction, but I can change that. Two things can sharpen your skills in any genre: Reading that genre, and writing that genre. My first novel is not great. I think it's okay, some people have enjoyed it (thanks guys!) and others have pointed out some things I need to work on (also thanks!). My fourth novel is infinitely better. I have far fewer bad habits, and the story and the characters are much cleaner. Why? Because I practiced like crazy, read within my genre (and outside my genre, for that matter), and worked at it.

Writing requires less magical talent than people think, but it does require a butt load of work. You can write whatever you want, and get good at it, but you have to be willing to put in the time.


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## Morkonan (Jul 25, 2014)

Kyle R said:


> So, you _want_ to write complex Fantasies, because you enjoy them. But, you feel that you struggle at writing them.
> 
> You _don't_ want to write Thrillers, because you don't enjoy them. But, you feel that you excel at writing them.
> 
> You struggle at writing what you _enjoy_, and you excel at writing what you _don't_ enjoy....



How about the "Thriller Fantasy" genre?

I can recall a few stories that fit that bill. With a little bit of work and a few elves, one could make a rousing "Name of the Rose" fantasy mystery/thriller!

Woot! 

/starts scribbling


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## Smith (Jul 25, 2014)

Morkonan said:


> How about the "Thriller Fantasy" genre?
> 
> I can recall a few stories that fit that bill. With a little bit of work and a few elves, one could make a rousing "Name of the Rose" fantasy mystery/thriller!
> 
> ...



That's what I said! I've personally never read a thriller fantasy, but I don't see a reason to not write one.


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## BeastlyBeast (Jul 26, 2014)

I honestly don't know how one would work though. LOL. I looked up thriller fantasy books on goodreads, and I saw Game of Thrones _and _Twilight...??? When I think of horror thriller, I think of things like The Shining, and perhaps alot of Stephen King's books would be classified as horror thriller. Then, when I think of fantasy, I think of... fantasy - there's so much, that you can pretty much imagine fantasy right off the top of your head without thinking of any particular books. Combining the two, though, doesn't make me think of Game of Thrones, that's more high fantasy mixed with political fantasy. It certainly doesn't make me think of Twilight. I don't even classify that as fantasy, that's more of a supernatural teen romance novel. LOL! I wonder if there are any true horror thriller fantasies out there?


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## Smith (Jul 26, 2014)

I was thinking something like, the thriller part is *real* to the character and the fantasy bit takes place inside his head. Like, he's got a scary mental sickness or something.

Narnia could have been a thriller fantasy is a serial killer followed them into the closet (let's say they were hiding from him in there) and chased them throughout the lands, but at the same time they also have to help *spoiler alert* Aslan defeat that witch lady.


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## Morkonan (Jul 26, 2014)

Smith said:


> That's what I said! I've personally never read a thriller fantasy, but I don't see a reason to not write one.



There have been quite a few, depending upon how "fantasy" you want to get. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cadfael_Chronicles

More of a "whodunit"/mystery series, IIRC. But, it is highly regarded. Cadfeal takes place in the Medieval Period. There are also some Victorian era stories by other authors, in particular one I remember about a husband and wife set of spies or some such. They'll usually be found in Literary or Historical Fiction genres.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jhereg_(novel)

Vlad Taltos is an assassin. Well, he's head of an assassin's guild, which makes him a pretty good assassin. Anyway, the books start off with a lot of mystery/intrigue/thriller sort of stories. Generally, Vlad is tasked with some sort of goal, usually surrounding a mystery of some sort, then the story goes all "thriller-like", with very high stakes. (Sometimes, "End of the World" type of "high stakes.") A fun adventure/thriller/mystery/fantasy series.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dresden_Files

Properly classified in genre fiction as "Urban Fantasy", "The Dresden Files" series revolves around a wizard who happens to be a private investigator in Chicago! FUN! The early books in the series start out as small-time mysteries that ramp up to whodunnits/thrillers. Later, as Dresden matures in his Setting, the stakes rise higher and higher. (A word of caution - There's only so many times your hero can save the world. Sooner or later, if they do it too much, it'll get a little tedious. Constantly raising the stakes is not a good way to prolong a series. But, Butcher is a great storyteller, so I'm not too worried.)

There are others, of course, but I don't know 'em all by title and author. 

As any writer should already know - Everything has already been written.  But, that doesn't matter. What matters is how they're being written.


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## Morkonan (Jul 26, 2014)

BeastlyBeast said:


> ... I wonder if there are any true horror thriller fantasies out there?



Bunches. Any of the Cthulu mythos ones would probably count, just so long as our hero doesn't go mad at the end... 

Now, if you're talking about something that's Stephen Kingish, like a fantasy version of "Carrie" or "Christine", you will find several of those, fairly easily, in the movie section. One that I saw recently, which was decent, was "Season of the Witch." Nevermind the ratings, the story was sound. 

But, in straight genre fiction, I don't know that any books in this specific category have "broken out to stand out." So, start writing one!


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## J Anfinson (Jul 26, 2014)

BeastlyBeast said:


> I wonder if there are any true horror thriller fantasies out there?



Joe Hill's _Horns_ comes to mind as fitting the bill.


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## voltigeur (Jul 26, 2014)

My advice (and it is worth every penny you are paying for it.:icon_colors is to write what you are passionate about. I have had to re write 3 of 5 first scenes. If I wasn't passionate about telling this story I would have quit 6 months ago. 

I would be a hypocrite to say I don't turn an eye to publishing as I go along. I do craft a bit as I go but the more I learn the cleaner and clearer the new scenes are. My critique group says I am getting better they can see lessons learned from early scenes to re-writes and new ones.

If you write something thinking it will be a money maker? You most likely won't finish it and even if you do finish it and publish you probably will be disappointed.


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## garza (Jul 27, 2014)

Writing for the money is as good a reason as any other if you have sufficient skill to find a steady market.


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## Ixarku (Jul 27, 2014)

Morkonan said:


> How about the "Thriller Fantasy" genre?
> 
> I can recall a few stories that fit that bill. With a little bit of work and a few elves, one could make a rousing "Name of the Rose" fantasy mystery/thriller!
> 
> ...




Heck, the next project I'm starting is a horror-fantasy story with some Cthulu mythos-inspired elements.



With fiction, I think that worrying about the market should be a secondary consideration.  Anything can theoretically sell if it's written well enough, but unless you're already famous or otherwise have a built in readership, if the writing is lousy, the odds of a story seeing the light of day are much less.

That said, I think if someone is struggling and failing to write what they love, rather than do something else, why not tackle the issues and deal with them?  Nobody ever got better at something by giving up on it.


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## Greimour (Jul 27, 2014)

Seems to be quite a few varying opinions, views and beliefs. Personally, I am gonna go with Shadow on this one. 

Personally. I think there _is_ a difference to what you write. You are more likely to be better at one genre to another. The easy explanation:

1. Who and what you are fundamentally. Such as - from the moment of birth you may have been more inclined to have sinister thoughts, be a little sadistic in nature (the type who laughs at others misfortune), be calculating in your methods and especially good at keeping secrets. Despite that you fell in love with romance novels and that's what you want to write. Due to your fundamental nature though; you might find that writing Detective mysteries, horrors or thrillers is more suited to your abilities. 

2. Same scenarios as above except, the love of romance novels is so strong and grips you so completely, your mind shifts into 'romance mode' and you can relate anything and everything you see into a scenario for a romantic scenario. Or a romantic beginning or end. You become overly sensitive to the mechanics of relationships and predict with unsettling accuracy how long couples will last together.

In the first scenario, your mental wiring dictates what you are good at. In the second, your interest in a subject broadens your mind and takes dominant control of your thought processes. 

This is how I think it is likely to be for everyone. People are inclined to think and act a certain way... but people most definitely _can_ change. So whilst you may be better at one now opposed to the other - you can become just as good in the other too. It just wont be as easy to do so. 

People naturally interested in war and such are likely to be good at writing about it. But people who aren't interested in war still have the ability to learn and write about it. That is my point. If you are weak in one genre, you can always get better at it. But people are definitely more inclined to be good at one genre and less so at another. Equally, the genre you are good at may not necessarily be the genre you wish to write in.

For that reason, write what you want to write. Personally, I would write both and I would mix both together. 

Sometimes the best thing about writing isn't the sharing - it is simply the act of creating. The act of writing on its own can be enjoyable if you don't worry about what other people would think. If I was the last human in existence - I think I would still write. I would have no one to read my writing - but why should that stop me? I expect due to loneliness I would end up writing complete drivel and perhaps a harem or two, but who cares. Not like anyone is going to read them anyway. ^_^

~~~

So just write whatever you want. 

If you want to write for money, learn to be a journalist or a blogger or something. Neither of which are any easier - but once success starts the income is less complicated than royalties. It will also give you the kind of experience you will find helpful for writing a novel. Fiction or otherwise. If you write for the sake of writing (because you love it) write whatever you want. If you write to share with the masses ... all options still apply. 

Thinking about it, this question was made redundant the moment you asked it.

At the end of the day, you will write what you want to regardless. The only difference is the 'why' you will write it. 

"I will write romance because I am good at it" < you want to write romance because you are good at it. In other words, you want people to acknowledge what you do and say it is good. Equally, you probably feel better writing well than when you write poor. Besides, not many intentionally do something they don't want to if they don't have to.

"I will write horrors because that's what the people want." < You want to please a wider audience so you write horrors. 

"I will write science-fiction because that's where the money is" < You want to earn more money so you write sci-fi.

"I will write romance because I have a lot of experience in that area." < You want to use real life to add believability whilst secretly boasting of your prowess in conquering the opposite sex (or perhaps even the same sex).

Want is simply a matter of perspective. No matter what you choose - it ends up being what you want. The reason is all that is in question.


~Kev.


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## Smith (Jul 27, 2014)

Greimour said:


> So just write whatever you want.
> 
> If you want to write for money, learn to be a journalist or a blogger or something. Neither of which are any easier - but once success starts the income is less complicated than royalties. It will also give you the kind of experience you will find helpful for writing a novel. Fiction or otherwise. If you write for the sake of writing (because you love it) write whatever you want. If you write to share with the masses ... all options still apply.
> 
> ...



I sure hope nobody has a gun to his head telling him what to write.

In all seriousness though, I agree with the entirety of your post.


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## garza (Jul 27, 2014)

Ixarku - If a person is serious about any sort of writing, shouldn't the market be the_ primary _consideration? 

I've been writing fiction as a hobby since I 'retired', but maybe I should change my attitude and approach fiction the same way I've always approached non-fiction - write what the market wants. It worked to keep me in bed and beans for 60 years so I never had to go out and look for a job, so why shouldn't it work for fiction as well? The more I have learned about fiction, the more I see that the skills I polished as a non-fiction writer can be applied to fiction. 

I'll need to do some market research and find a new agent. 

Why not?


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## Smith (Jul 27, 2014)

garza said:


> Ixarku - If a person is serious about any sort of writing, shouldn't the market be the_ primary _consideration?
> 
> I've been writing fiction as a hobby since I 'retired', but maybe I should change my attitude and approach fiction the same way I've always approached non-fiction - write what the market wants. It worked to keep me in bed and beans for 60 years so I never had to go out and look for a job, so why shouldn't it work for fiction as well? The more I have learned about fiction, the more I see that the skills I polished as a non-fiction writer can be applied to fiction.
> 
> ...



I can't speak for him, but I thought I might throw in my own opinion.

When I hear "write for the market" it just sounds heartless to me. Because from what I've seen, doing things for the market ends up like every Michael Bay film. You see good entertainers become bland because they aren't themselves, they're sell-outs. Not saying you can't write for monetary gain *and* stay true to yourself, but it's always a big concern of mine. I want to see people be themselves, be unique. The best they can be. So I always say write for yourself first, then for the market. The former should always hold priority over the latter.


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## Greimour (Jul 27, 2014)

It is optional Garza, but markets change all the time and they aren't nearly as predictable as the big publishing houses like to believe. 

The amount of authors that were rejected for having 'non-marketable' material is redonkulous. Whether you or I like the stuff personally doesn't matter... if you look at the sales; then what was supposed to be marketable vs what actually is varies. 

Harry Potter = "no market for this" and yet the final four books of the series broke records consecutively. 

Tales of Peter Rabbit = "No market for this" and went on to sell millions of copies after she decided to just self publish it.

... Others can be named too. Wasn't it Agatha Christie who became the second best selling writer after William Shakespeare? ... She was also told there was no market for her stuff and received countless rejections. 

If examples of the past are considered "exceptions" ... then there is still the ever changing market. A Novel might take months to write, or even years - at which point the market can change.

If any more reasons were needed... everything has a market. There is no such thing as work with no market. It is only a question of how much profit there is in the market in question. Or at least - how much profit the publishing house believes there is. There is always room for any genre. 

The OP said Fantasy vs Horror. Both are genre's and both equally marketable. The difference comes with content. A publisher might not want to see the next Sherlock Holmes thinking the type is boring and outdated. But the masses might like it... so the question isn't really detective mystery, but the publishers belief that Sherlock type stories are dead. Rowling was told that witches and wizards were outdated... just to refer back to my earlier example. The genre of Fantasy wasn't out of market - just witches and wizards.

As I said, OP said Fantasy vs Horror in the example. Not "swords vs magic" 

Writing for market is fine if that's what you _want_ to do. But that still equates to writing what you want to write. It is also a risk, as is anything else you write. If you are going to take a risk regardless, why not take the more enjoyable one and write something that you like yourself?


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## E. Zamora (Jul 27, 2014)

From reading author bios and essays, I would say most successful authors write what they want to write, what they might enjoy reading themselves with the expectation or even hope that there will be a market for it. I’m sure it happens, but I think that’s usually how it works as opposed to a calculated effort to write for a specific market.


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## ppsage (Jul 27, 2014)

I have been reading work on this forum for a long time, stuff posted for critique, stuff posted other places. Quite a few posters, I would know who did it in a blind taste test. Is that because they all WANT to write that recognizable way? Or that they've tried to write the way the (WF) audience wants? I feel that there are a bunch of parts to being a writer and some of the things you need to do are not entirely under intentional control. The part where the right words come to mind for instance. Or maybe it's the words that please you. I'm not saying something like this can't be trained to a certain extent, but still I think something about it has some hard-wiring that you have to recognize and work with. You probably wouldn't be here at all, if you didn't have an inkling you had some writer-wiring. I feel like I have to write what I CAN, see where that intersects demand, or at least some kind of audience involvement, and build on that. There's lots of stuff I love reading, that I fantasize being able to write, but I know the truth: it ain't me babe. Even if you have a long publishing record in certain areas of writing, if you decide to branch out, it's going to be in accommodation with your (now proven and hopefully understood) abilities and limitations. Trying to force your peg into the wrong shaped hole might not lead to progress. Write what you CAN and pay attention.


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## Ixarku (Jul 27, 2014)

garza said:


> Ixarku - If a person is serious about any sort of writing, shouldn't the market be the_ primary _consideration?
> 
> I've been writing fiction as a hobby since I 'retired', but maybe I should change my attitude and approach fiction the same way I've always approached non-fiction - write what the market wants. It worked to keep me in bed and beans for 60 years so I never had to go out and look for a job, so why shouldn't it work for fiction as well? The more I have learned about fiction, the more I see that the skills I polished as a non-fiction writer can be applied to fiction.
> 
> ...





I suppose it depends on your goals.  If someone is only in it for the money, then, sure, find out what people will buy and churn it out at will.  I find it a little hard to respect that as a primary motivation, though, because in my mind putting the money first means putting the artistic integrity second.  But I'm not going to say that other people should feel the same way.  Anybody can find a way to make a living doing something if they are determined enough, take the right chances, etc.  But how many people break new ground just by providing what the market wants?  I should think that honing one's craft, find one's unique voice, and doing what one loves should always be a primary consideration; otherwise, what's the point?  However, if a writer can stay true to their vision _and_ make money at the same time, fabulous.

This is from the perspective of writing fiction.  I view non-fiction a little differently, as something where staying true to one's artistic vision isn't necessarily as important.  Instead of "artistic vision", I think the most important aspect of non-fiction is being accurate and truthful with whatever information one is reporting.

The Michael Bay analogy is a good one.  Sure the guy makes boatloads of money, but... yuck.  I don't have the slightest interest in going that route.  Other folks may choose to go that way, but we're going to be on different wavelengths.


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## shadowwalker (Jul 27, 2014)

I have no problem with money being a motivator, or "writing for the market". I believe I've said it before - it's the perfect job, doing what you love and getting paid for it. In school I wrote "to the market" by writing stories assigned by the teachers. I love writing. I love taking an idea and seeing what I can do with it, and I don't really care where the idea came from. That, to me, is the "art". Hell, Michelangelo worked for the market, and the Sistine Chapel ain't bad at all.


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## Smith (Jul 27, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> I have no problem with money being a motivator, or "writing for the market". I believe I've said it before - it's the perfect job, doing what you love and getting paid for it. In school I wrote "to the market" by writing stories assigned by the teachers. I love writing. I love taking an idea and seeing what I can do with it, and I don't really care where the idea came from. That, to me, is the "art". Hell, Michelangelo worked for the market, and the Sistine Chapel ain't bad at all.



True, I didn't mean to sound like one cannot use it as a motivator. I just appreciate people who think with their artistic integrity first.

"Sir Michelangelo, can you paint our Sistine Chapel for us?"

"Sure, for an appropriate price of course."

"Of course, but the thing is, I want you to paint a bunch of religious war scenes because that's the _hip _thing right now."

I think it is safe to say he had enough integrity to at least do what he wanted with it in the end. I'm sure the opinions of those who payed him to paint things were taken into consideration, but I question if that was his prime motivation. Especially if he worked on it for several years, and was reluctant to even do it at all unless he was given some freedom to do what he wanted.


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## shadowwalker (Jul 27, 2014)

Smith said:


> "Sir Michelangelo, can you paint our Sistine Chapel for us?"
> 
> "Sure, for an appropriate price of course."
> 
> "Of course, but the thing is, I want you to paint a bunch of religious war scenes because that's the _hip _thing right now."



He convinced his patron to let him paint something different than planned - however, he was painting instead of sculpting, which he did not like to do. And again, he did a pretty bang up job of it. So I don't think writing to the market, for the market, for money, automatically or even typically compromises one's "artistic integrity" - whatever that's supposed to be.


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## Guy Faukes (Jul 27, 2014)

BeastlyBeast said:


> Hey, guys. I just had an intriguing thought (at least intriguing to myself. Heh!) I was wondering what you thought would be the best thing to try and write, what you want to write, what would make you the most money, or what you can write well? Right off the bat most of you would probably say what you want to write. But, what about scenarios such as this; suppose I would love to write a fantasy story - I outline it, create the characters, and everything, but I ust can't write it... there's just something about it where the words don't come together, the plot's too thin, the characters are too stock or uninteresting, something or multiple things get in the way of me writing a good fantasy story. But, suppose in the midst of trying to write fantasy, I learn that, even though I don't care much for the genre, I can write psychological horror thrillers really well? Obviously there's a certain desire out there for both genres, but one I _want_ to write but _can't_, and the other i _don't _want to write but _can_... hypothetically which one would you think is the better choice?



I'd say a balance of all of the above. A story has to be presentable to an audience and not just be a simple expression of oneself. And if you're gonna practice a genre, you might as well enjoy it. There are a lot more lucrative things to slave over than writing something you hate. You might as well get another job, haha.

If you love writing fantasy, stick with it. If you have a grand vision of a fantasy but can't execute it yet, practice and work on your prose. Develop the cliched scene. How can you make it different and textured? How well do you know your world and characters?


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## Smith (Jul 27, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> He convinced his patron to let him paint something different than planned - however, he was painting instead of sculpting, which he did not like to do. And again, he did a pretty bang up job of it. So I don't think writing to the market, for the market, for money, automatically or even typically compromises one's "artistic integrity" - whatever that's supposed to be.



It won't compromise it if you don't put it before your integrity. I agree that anybody who wants to make a career out of writing, whether it is fiction or working for a local newspaper, must consider the market. I'm only saying that it can't be the only consideration, or even the first priority.


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## shadowwalker (Jul 27, 2014)

Smith said:


> It won't compromise it if you don't put it before your integrity.



I'm still trying to figure out what this integrity thing is, frankly. A lot of people use it, but... To me, the only time "integrity" might be compromised is if you don't put your best effort into your work, but I consider that a work ethic.


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## Smith (Jul 27, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> I'm still trying to figure out what this integrity thing is, frankly. A lot of people use it, but... To me, the only time "integrity" might be compromised is if you don't put your best effort into your work, but I consider that a work ethic.



That, or just writing what people want to hear, and not really saying anything.

"You know, I could leave the story as it is, but I'll do it a disservice and milk the cow some more."

Take a look at Transformers, Assassin's Creed, Call of Duty. No love in the work anymore. Just all about $$$.


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## shadowwalker (Jul 27, 2014)

Smith said:


> That, or just writing what people want to hear, and not really saying anything.
> 
> "You know, I could leave the story as it is, but I'll do it a disservice and milk the cow some more."
> 
> Take a look at Transformers, Assassin's Creed, Call of Duty. No love in the work anymore. Just all about $$$.



Writing what people want to read is no sin; not really saying anything is poor writing regardless of why you write.


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## Smith (Jul 27, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> Writing what people want to read is no sin; not really saying anything is poor writing regardless of why you write.



Eh, I guess I'm failing to describe it. Agree to disagree for now.


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## garza (Jul 27, 2014)

For all the years I was actively pursuing writing assignments, I put  money first because writing was the only way I had of making a living,  and during those years I made a darned good living. 

Putting  'artistic' integrity second was never a problem because I'm not an  artist; never have been, never will be, and thus never had any  'artistic' integrity to worry about. Integrity, for me, means following a  strict ethical code I was branded with by my Grandfather at an early  age The journalist I most admired and most wanted to be like was Edward  R. Murrow who exemplified the kind of integrity my Grandfather preached.

The primary research I'll do for myself concerns length. Short novels  appear to be on the rise in popularity, and that's a length I'm  comfortable with, though full-length would be no hardship. Horror and SF  are out, along with fantasy of any sort. While I've developed my  imagination to a fair degree during these years I've been learning  fiction, my imaginings do not yet reach beyond the world I've lived in  for 74 years.  

What does that leave? Well, that's where an agent can be my guide as I work to write something that sells.


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## Smith (Jul 27, 2014)

garza said:


> For all the years I was actively pursuing writing assignments, I put  money first because writing was the only way I had of making a living,  and during those years I made a darned good living.
> 
> Putting  'artistic' integrity second was never a problem because I'm not an  artist; never have been, never will be, and thus never had any  'artistic' integrity to worry about. Integrity, for me, means following a  strict ethical code I was branded with by my Grandfather at an early  age The journalist I most admired and most wanted to be like was Edward  R. Murrow who exemplified the kind of integrity my Grandfather preached.
> 
> ...



I guess what I was trying to say is if I did become famous, and wrote a successful book series. I finish it, but all the fans want more. And if I make another, I'll make hundreds of thousands of dollars! I'd rather have the integrity to say, "No, I'm an artist. That series is finished, and I'm not going to ruin it by milking it. I'm going to move on and start / do something else, and hopefully you'll like it. If not, sorry."

But yes, in the case of a journalist, it isn't about artistic integrity. It is about integrity with facts and information. Telling the truth. So making money shouldn't get in the way of that integrity. You shouldn't ever, "Yeah I'll turn my piece about the government into one big propaganda piece if you pay me to do it."


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## shadowwalker (Jul 27, 2014)

Smith said:


> I guess what I was trying to say is if I did become famous, and wrote a successful book series. I finish it, but all the fans want more. And if I make another, I'll make hundreds of thousands of dollars! I'd rather have the integrity to say, "No, I'm an artist. That series is finished, and I'm not going to ruin it by milking it. I'm going to move on and start / do something else, and hopefully you'll like it. If not, sorry.



But someone who cares about their fans, who enjoys writing stories fans enjoy - if they write another in the series, does that make them somehow corrupt? If they didn't plan to write another book, but the fans kept asking for one, they lose their "integrity" if they decide to acquiesce? Sorry, but that whole integrity thing sounds like just a way of putting oneself on a pedestal. A pretty shaky one, IMHO.


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## T.S.Bowman (Jul 27, 2014)

Let me tell ya...if I could make Stephanie Myers money from Side Worlds as it stands right now (if it was finished of course) and not have to edit it or anything..I would say damn the "artistic integrity." 

That's just the way it is. 

I will do my best to make Side Worlds as good as I can, though, since Myers money won't be coming my way anytime soon.


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## garza (Jul 27, 2014)

A pedestal built on popsicle sticks, if you ask me, which you didn't, but I'll say so anyhow. 

Truth is I had to listen this same discussion over and over again during the years I was in and out of New York. 'Artistic integrity,' 'art for art's sake,' 'be true to your muse,' on and on _ad nauseam_, from people who'd never published an original line of anything anywhere. I was, of course, labeled a prostitute because I sold my work for money. That was how the non-productive sector of the 'art' crowd viewed anyone who accepted money in exchange for what they created. 

I've nothing against artists who are genuinely creative and who contribute something worthwhile. I long ago recovered from the prejudice my grandfather tried to instill in me on the subject. He was an Irishman of Belfast so his dislike for Englishmen and Republicans (of the U.S. variety - he was a firm supporter of the IRA) could be explained, even if not always approved. There never was offered a satisfactory explanation for his dislike for anything to do with art. He encouraged my first efforts at drawing, painting, photography, and writing, especially writing, but forbade me ever to call anything I did 'art'. And of course, as a leader of the Mississippi Democratic Party, even after the Revolution of 1927, explained in detail the lower levels of Hell where Mississippians who voted Republican were consigned. I shudder to think how he would feel today.

My apologies.

I've always written what I wanted to write, and what I've wanted to write has always been what I could sell. Till today I've written fiction for the enjoyment of learning something new. 'Tis time to re-evaluate my fiction writing with a view to turning some of it to profit.


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## Smith (Jul 28, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> But someone who cares about their fans, who enjoys writing stories fans enjoy - if they write another in the series, does that make them somehow corrupt? If they didn't plan to write another book, but the fans kept asking for one, they lose their "integrity" if they decide to acquiesce? Sorry, but that whole integrity thing sounds like just a way of putting oneself on a pedestal. A pretty shaky one, IMHO.





garza said:


> A pedestal built on popsicle sticks, if you ask me, which you didn't, but I'll say so anyhow.
> 
> Truth is I had to listen this same discussion over and over again during the years I was in and out of New York. 'Artistic integrity,' 'art for art's sake,' 'be true to your muse,' on and on _ad nauseam_, from people who'd never published an original line of anything anywhere. I was, of course, labeled a prostitute because I sold my work for money. That was how the non-productive sector of the 'art' crowd viewed anyone who accepted money in exchange for what they created.
> 
> ...



If they don't enjoy what they're writing, and just doing it for the money, I think so. But that is just my opinion, and I respect both of your opinions back. While I cannot honestly say I am convinced, you have definitely challenged my belief. I am very sorry if it sounded like I was being arrogant or up on a high-horse, that was not my intent. I was only trying to have a debate, sorry about that. 

And garza, your grandpa seemed like a knowledgeable man, if perhaps stuck in some of his ways (like anybody else, myself included). I can see how he might have influenced your work and beliefs. Wish I had somebody in my family like that to help me with my writing. Well, I guess you guys are my family! xD Lastly, I agree. As long as what you're writing is what you want to write, regardless of the reasons, do it. Our reasons may differ, and our priorities might be different, but in the end all that matters is we're writing and hopefully having a good time doing it. 

Thanks for teaching me something, and sorry for the thread de-rail.


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## Greimour (Jul 28, 2014)

I found all of that quite interesting @ Grza, Shadow and Smith. Especially smith. I felt like I was extremely close to learning something important, but it slipped out of my grasp.

Personally, I _never _understood 'artists integrity'. From long before this conversation. Integrity is a personal choice. Remaining true to oneself, ones sense of justice or honour or beliefs or views, etc. Perhaps all of those things. To act consistently and true to character. 

To me, the concept of integrity is a little narrow minded on it's own. It leaves no room for change. Just because you have believed something your entire life does not mean you are right. And to refuse to change just to preserve integrity is down right pigheaded. But to then challenge a persons integrity due to art and force them into a collective? How narrow-minded can a concept be?

Whose art? Whose the artist? Whose opinion is this integrity of art anyway? Integrity, like I said, is a personal thing. A personal choice. Even a personal code of conduct if you like. But that is true to the individual - not the collective. Artists are a collective. An artist is an individual. His or her artistic-integrity does not have to match the collective. To claim that it does immediately removes everything that integrity is and turns it into nothing more than conformity. 

Making a choice and standing by the decision. That is showing integrity. Getting paid for what you produce does not make one a prostitute. Do you think an artist puts more of themselves into their creation than a top quality chef does into the food they make?  If an artist sells art it is prostitution; but if a chef sells food, it is what-? the natural order of things?

Impracticalities and collective beliefs are riddles to me. I have little problem understanding individuals - but start piling on those beliefs to form a mass conformation and suddenly common sense and reason goes out the window.


So I stand by what I said originally.

Make a choice and you automatically end up doing what you _want_ to do. No matter what choice you make, the real question is the why you made it. What made you _want_ to choose that option. Fame, fortune, other... no matter. Something made that option appeal. Now to show integrity - simply stand by your decisions and convictions. 


~Kev.


Smith, that wasn't a pop either mate. I was really interested and that opinion of mine is what I was wrestling whilst trying to understand what an 'artists integrity' is. FTR, you shown plenty of your own integrity (in a positive way) :thumbl:


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## Smith (Jul 28, 2014)

Greimour said:


> I found all of that quite interesting @ Grza, Shadow and Smith. Especially smith. I felt like I was extremely close to learning something important, but it slipped out of my grasp.
> 
> Personally, I _never _understood 'artists integrity'. From long before this conversation. Integrity is a personal choice. Remaining true to oneself, ones sense of justice or honour or beliefs or views, etc. Perhaps all of those things. To act consistently and true to character.
> 
> ...



Probably why I was wrong. Because each person has their own individual integrity. So my personal "artist integrity" is different and won't apply to everybody else. If me and another do happen to share the same views on integrity, than it's a nice coincidence. Whereas I will always write for me first and take the market into consideration second, others as I have learned see nothing wrong in writing for the market first.

And who knows. Maybe I'll think differently about writing for the market if my house is on the line or something. That will be a good test of my integrity.


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## garza (Jul 28, 2014)

Smith - You've touched the core of the question: _As long as what you're writing is what you want to write, regardless of  the reasons, do it. Our reasons may differ, and our priorities might be  different, but in the end all that matters is we're writing and  hopefully having a good time doing it._

Some years ago I helped sponsor a U14 football team, the CCFC (Capital City Football Club - still together ten years later, now semi-pro and taking part in regional competition). I always closed team meetings with the admonition to 'play hard, play fair, and have fun, because if it's not fun it's not good football.'

Your words remind me of that.

Greimour - Always I write what I want to write - sometimes for a cheque, sometimes for the fun of it. (dating myself here - for younger folk who do not know 'cheque', read 'direct deposit')

While I have learned respect for artists who have something to show for their efforts, I cannot, will not, apply any idea about art to who I am or what I do. The phrase 'artistic integrity' is as empty a phrase as exists in English.


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## E. Zamora (Jul 28, 2014)

garza said:


> The phrase 'artistic integrity' is as empty a phrase as exists in English.



There are artists who are deeply vested in a singular vision; one they wouldn't stray from or abandon for all the money in the world. Some might call that madness, but I think "artistic integrity" is as good a descriptor as any.


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## shadowwalker (Jul 28, 2014)

I tried (note: _tried_) to look up an actual definition of "artistic integrity" and not one site/discussion could come to a solid definition. How can one maintain something when no one seems to know what exactly it is? This idea of "selling out" - to me that means being hired for and writing a positive article about a company that uses animals for testing cosmetics when the writer is totally opposed to the practice. That has nothing to do with "art" - it has to do with personal values and living up to them. So unless one is totally opposed to receiving money for one's creative endeavors and proceeds to sell their writing anyway, I see no poblem in writing what the readers want versus just writing and then seeing if there's a buyer.


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## Terry D (Jul 28, 2014)

garza said:


> Ixarku - If a person is serious about any sort of writing, shouldn't the market be the_ primary _consideration?
> 
> I've been writing fiction as a hobby since I 'retired', but maybe I should change my attitude and approach fiction the same way I've always approached non-fiction - write what the market wants. It worked to keep me in bed and beans for 60 years so I never had to go out and look for a job, so why shouldn't it work for fiction as well? The more I have learned about fiction, the more I see that the skills I polished as a non-fiction writer can be applied to fiction.
> 
> ...



Many full-time fiction writers have a history of writing for any market that would throw them a paycheck. Best selling mystery author Lawrence Block paid the bills--and learned much about the craft--by writing soft-core porn novels. People make a living writing Harlequin Romances.


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## E. Zamora (Jul 28, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> I tried (note: _tried_) to look up an actual definition of "artistic integrity" and not one site/discussion could come to a solid definition. How can one maintain something when no one seems to know what exactly it is?



You don’t think there has ever been an author who turned down money because he was asked to make a change that he felt compromised his work or his vision? I can't think of an example off hand, but I think it's a good bet that it has happened. And if it has, I wouldn't have an issue with calling it "artistic integrity." 

I think it's like porn, hard to define, but you know it when you see it. Kind of like art for that matter. Because people can't agree on or come up with a "solid" definition doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.


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## garza (Jul 28, 2014)

The romance rack at the supermarket check-out stand has for many years been a good market for writers. The books are formula based, easy for any competent wordsmith to write, and a sure sale once a writer is established with one of the publishers. I wrote one a long time ago and while it was relatively easy money, such novels sell cheap and they must to be turned out assembly-line fashion to make a decent living. I should think it would be a crushing bore after a while. There are those, however, who do quite well in that market.

With th help of a good agent I'm certain I'll find my niche for whatever time I have left to write.


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## E. Zamora (Jul 28, 2014)

And there are no doubt authors who write romance novels because they love doing it, and it's not all about the paycheck. And there is likely every shade of gray in between.


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## Smith (Jul 28, 2014)

E. Zamora said:


> You don’t think there has ever been an author who turned down money because he was asked to make a change that he felt compromised his work or his vision? I can't think of an example off hand, but I think it's a good bet that it has happened. And if it has, I wouldn't have an issue with calling it "artistic integrity."
> 
> I think it's like porn, hard to define, but you know it when you see it. Kind of like art for that matter. Because people can't agree on or come up with a "solid" definition doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
> 
> And there are not doubt authors who write romance novels because they love doing it, and it's not all about the paycheck. And there is likely every shade of gray in between.



Seconded. Thanks for explaining it where I failed.



garza said:


> Smith - You've touched the core of the question: _As long as what you're writing is what you want to write, regardless of  the reasons, do it. Our reasons may differ, and our priorities might be  different, but in the end all that matters is we're writing and  hopefully having a good time doing it._
> 
> Some years ago I helped sponsor a U14 football team, the CCFC (Capital City Football Club - still together ten years later, now semi-pro and taking part in regional competition). I always closed team meetings with the admonition to 'play hard, play fair, and have fun, because if it's not fun it's not good football.'
> 
> Your words remind me of that.



I agree with that football statement all the same. My favorite sport, still play it. ^_^


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## LeeC (Jul 28, 2014)

As with all things in life, viva la différence, from the practical minded, to the wandering souls, to the pontificators. Much of writing is portraying subjective life varying from the non-fiction to fanciful thinking. Of course economics are a factor for many, but I think Meg Cabot had the right idea when saying:


“Write the kind of story you would like to read. People will give you all sorts of advice about writing, but if you are not writing something you like, no one else will like it either.”


The mechanisms are the same regardless. For example I don't read (or attempt to write) romance, as partially explained by André Maurois:


"We owe to the middle ages the two worst inventions of humanity — gunpowder and romantic love."


But, if I did, I would try to get into the readers head with words like: 


"... long delicate ankles, suggesting the deceptively veiled prize."


Enjoy your day 
LeeC


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## garza (Jul 28, 2014)

Smith - Football was unknown in the U.S. when I was growing up. It wasn't until I settled in Belize 20 years ago that I had a chance to learn the game. Of course I was already too old to play, but I became a fan. The performance of Brazil in the World Cup was a bit of a shock, to say the least, and a major disappointment. My favourite team is Real Madrid..


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## garza (Jul 28, 2014)

Lee C - 'Write the kind of story you would like to read' sounds like something you'd tell kindergarteners. I've always written what I would like someone else to read - namely a publisher with a cheque book. Works like a charm.


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## J Anfinson (Jul 28, 2014)

garza said:


> Lee C - 'Write the kind of story you would like to read' sounds like something you'd tell kindergarteners. I've always written what I would like someone else to read - namely a publisher with a cheque book. Works like a charm.



Ah, but writing for money is a bit different than writing for pleasure. If all you care about is spinning a yarn for the sake of telling the story, getting paid is only a bonus. That's where I'm at, and although it could always change that's why I've written so far.


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## garza (Jul 28, 2014)

J - My situation has been, and continues to be, a very fortunate one. I've made my way writing, but I've always spent time writing for the pure pleasure of putting one word after another to watch them work together. Till now fiction has been a hobby. 

I'm serious now about turning my fiction writing into an economic resource, mostly for the pleasure of seeing if I can make it work at my age. So even as it has been with non-fiction for the past 60 years, so now it will be for fiction - writing something to inspire a publisher to write a cheque.


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## E. Zamora (Jul 28, 2014)

garza said:


> Lee C - 'Write the kind of story you would like to read' sounds like something you'd tell kindergarteners. I've always written what I would like someone else to read - namely a publisher with a cheque book. Works like a charm.



I'm a professional writer also. I take pride in my work and I make a good living at it. And I love what I do. But my approach and goals for creative writing are quite different than what I do professionally. It's mostly apples and oranges.

When I want to be inspired by a compelling story and beautiful writing, I  don't sit down and read website content, a white paper, a brochure or a  speech. Instead, I read a novel or poetry. 

When I write fiction or poetry, I write the kind of story I would want to read, or more accurately, I aspire to write the kind of story I would love to read. That may be something you would tell a kindergartner, and that's fine. It makes perfect sense to me.

Will I ever make a dime writing fiction or poetry? Well, that remains to be seen. I would like to think so, but presently, that's not my primary concern. Thankfully, checks from my copywriting are still coming in.


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## Smith (Jul 28, 2014)

garza said:


> Smith - Football was unknown in the U.S. when I was growing up. It wasn't until I settled in Belize 20 years ago that I had a chance to learn the game. Of course I was already too old to play, but I became a fan. The performance of Brazil in the World Cup was a bit of a shock, to say the least, and a major disappointment. My favourite team is Real Madrid..



Which is too bad, really. It is definitely more popular now. All the kids who play American Football would bag on it, then they'd try to play and be exhausted before the first half was even over. That's how they learned to respect it as a sport. We don't need much body armor either. Bayern Munich is mine, only because I can't stand Ronaldo and his dive fest. Bayern Munich > Barcelona > Real Madrid. So you can guess how I felt about Deutschland winning the World Cup. 

By the way, I think you said you've done journalism(?) as a career. How was that? I've heard from many people that it kills creativity, but I figured I'd actually ask somebody who does it for a living to get the real answer. Oh, and have you ever had any of your fiction published? Because that is also my goal, that one day I can get a story published.


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## garza (Jul 28, 2014)

Smith - Yeah, celebration time for you. Misery for much of the rest of the world. 

Kids here get serious about football when they are four or five years old. The big problem is getting support for the younger teams, including parental support. I've heard of the 'helicopter parent' problem in the U.S. The problem here is the opposite. 

Journalism doesn't kill creativity. It's probably a case of people who are more real-world oriented being attracted to journalism. I've never been creative the way the people are who write science fiction, fantasy, and such are creative. For me the world we have has more than enough material to last all writers a lifetime, so why try to create a world that does not exist? 

A novel I wrote donkeys years ago was published by one of the romance publishers - the supermarket checkout stand paperback sort. It was straight sale of a book written to a formula. _Lucille's Faded Love_ it was called. Around that same time, mid sixties, some of my short stories were published in the little literary magazines like Sewanee Review, Southern Review, Arrowhead, and such. Otherwise my career from 14 till now has been non-fiction, mostly journalism of one sort or another. I've always been too lazy to go out and get a job so I had no choice but to be a writer. That does not mean other writers are lazy. I can only speak for myself.


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## JimJanuary (Jul 29, 2014)

I would write what you would enjoy reading during the initial drafting phases. After that, I would edit to consider the audience your submitting it for


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## shadowwalker (Jul 29, 2014)

E. Zamora said:


> You don’t think there has ever been an author who turned down money because he was asked to make a change that he felt compromised his work or his vision? I can't think of an example off hand, but I think it's a good bet that it has happened. And if it has, I wouldn't have an issue with calling it "artistic integrity."



You could call it integrity - or it could be golden word syndrome. I haven't heard of many (if any) reputable publishers who _insist _on changes the author won't make; most understand that it's the author's name on the book, after all. And that would be the only reason I would turn down an offer contingent on changes I didn't agree with. But I'd look for another publisher, so it's not really turning down money. If one wanted it, another will. (And why would they want changes like that to a book they felt worth publishing in the first place? That's just not logical.)



E. Zamora said:


> I think it's like porn, hard to define, but you know it when you see it. Kind of like art for that matter. Because people can't agree on or come up with a "solid" definition doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.



Well, I've been on this earth for nearly 60 years, and I still couldn't tell you what it is. If someone wants to say they have it, no problem. But when they use it to put themselves a step above other writers, _that's_ a problem.


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## E. Zamora (Jul 29, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> You could call it integrity - or it could be  golden word syndrome. I haven't heard of many (if any) reputable  publishers who _insist _on changes the author won't make; most  understand that it's the author's name on the book, after all. And that  would be the only reason I would turn down an offer contingent on  changes I didn't agree with. But I'd look for another publisher, so it's  not really turning down money. If one wanted it, another will. (And why  would they want changes like that to a book they felt worth publishing  in the first place? That's just not logical.)



One of my  instructors showed us a story he submitted to a literary magazine. They  liked it, but they asked him to make changes that he did not want to  make because he thought it changed the nature of the story. (The word  "insist" doesn't really apply.) He declined to make the changes, and  when I read it, I could see why. I don't think it had anything to do  with "golden word syndrome." He turned down the money and a chance to be  in a prestigious publication. I would call that artistic integrity.  That he might accept money from another publication that didn't request  changes has nothing to do with it. Two separate sets of conditions. Two separate offers. 

I'm sure  you know more than I do about the book publishing industry, and perhaps  you are published. But I'm skeptical that similar scenarios don't  happen, even if it is rarely. It happens in virtually every other  industry where people are paid for creative work. It's logical to the  people who want to make the changes because they think it will make the  property more marketable.




shadowwalker said:


> Well, I've been on this earth for nearly 60  years, and I still couldn't tell you what it is. If someone wants to say  they have it, no problem. But when they use it to put themselves a step  above other writers, _that's_ a problem.


 
I didn't say anything about this aspect of it, but I would agree. And I'm not here to argue about abstract concepts (or anything else for that matter), so I'll leave it at this.


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## shadowwalker (Jul 30, 2014)

E. Zamora said:


> But I'm skeptical that similar scenarios don't  happen, even if it is rarely. It happens in virtually every other  industry where people are paid for creative work. It's logical to the  people who want to make the changes because they think it will make the  property more marketable.



I'm not published yet, but I have talked with and listened to a great many people who are, as well as people who work in the publishing industry (I'm talking books, not magazines btw). Agents and editors will suggest changes - it's always up to the author to make the final decision (with the caveat that we're talking about reputable establishments). As to your professor, did they actually say it would make the story more marketable? Because I would find that strange - the story is only part of the magazine, which I would suppose is already marketable. Did they actually withdraw their offer because he wouldn't make the changes - or did he withdraw the story because he didn't want to make them? I guess I question this because I've seen so many writers who don't really understand even the basics of publishing suddenly saying, "Oh wait - you mean I could have...?" - typically after they make a decision based on the assumption that they can't negotiate. There are just a lot of details that aren't there, so I can't really offer an opinion as to whether this could be called "integrity" or not.


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## E. Zamora (Jul 30, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> As to your professor, did they actually say it would make the story more marketable? Because I would find that strange - the story is only part of the magazine, which I would suppose is already marketable.



The statement about making it more marketable was in a separate paragraph regarding the book publishing industry and other industries where people are paid for creative work. Obviously, the magazine would already be marketable to some degree, but I am assuming that would be the ultimate purpose of any editorial decision.



shadowwalker said:


> Did they actually withdraw their offer because he wouldn't make the  changes - or did he withdraw the story because he didn't want to make  them?



They withdrew the offer because he wouldn't make the  changes. I don't know what he might have misunderstood. That seems rather straightforward to me. I do know that he's been published elsewhere in literary magazines and anthologies. He didn't really come across as a babe in the woods.

You've as much as said you don't believe there is such a thing as artistic integrity. Something tells me that no amount of detail or number of examples will be sufficient to overcome your skepticism; but thanks for the exchange.


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## shadowwalker (Jul 30, 2014)

E. Zamora said:


> They withdrew the offer because he wouldn't make the  changes. I don't know what he might have misunderstood. That seems rather straightforward to me. I do know that he's been published elsewhere in literary magazines and anthologies. He didn't really come across as a babe in the woods.



Fair enough. That wasn't clear in your original post. I do know magazines may want changes in order to make the story fit better with their venue, and that may have been the case here. 



E. Zamora said:


> You've as much as said you don't believe there is such a thing as artistic integrity. Something tells me that no amount of detail or number of examples will be sufficient to overcome your skepticism; but thanks for the exchange.



I rarely believe in things that people can't at least define. I mean, how can one accept something when people can't even agree what it is to begin with? And, as I've said, I've seen it used far too often as a disguise for other less desirable traits.


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## garza (Jul 30, 2014)

One must always tailor what one writes to fit a particular publisher. An article originally intended for _Newsweek_ would need some adjustment to be pitched to _Time._ I never made any effort to pitch anything to _U.S. News and World Report_. I do have my standards. That's called journalistic integrity. Could artistic integrity be related?


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## Smith (Jul 30, 2014)

garza said:


> One must always tailor what one writes to fit a particular publisher. An article originally intended for _Newsweek_ would need some adjustment to be pitched to _Time._ I never made any effort to pitch anything to _U.S. News and World Report_. I do have my standards. That's called journalistic integrity. Could artistic integrity be related?



Definitely is similar.


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