# Dialogue for dummies



## Solus (Nov 28, 2018)

As I've begun to learn more and more about writing, this particular part of writing, dialogue, has been on my mind. 


*I can't make it work
*

I've tried, god knows, but for some reason, it always feels stilted and unlike when I write of other things, the words
don't come to me like I'm used to. I force myself to think of something but it always ends up terrible. And the
saddest part about it is that dialogue is one of the things I enjoy most in books.

For that reason, I have turned to this forum. If anyone would happen to know how one can get better at writing
dialogue, or have tips on how to do so, then I would be very thankful

Thank you for reading


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## Guard Dog (Nov 28, 2018)

All I can tell you is get the characters to have a conversation. Listen to it in your mind, and then write it down.

Think about how you talk to other people, or how the dialog runs in movies and such.

That's all it it; a conversation.

P.S. the various gestures and expressions you see people use are your tags. Work 'em in there.


G.D.

P.S. Not to kill a conversation here or anything, but you can also try typing this - writing dialogue - into both Google and YouTube's search bar and get good results.

Like this, for example:

Writing Dialogue: 10 Tips to Help You


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## Hill.T.Manner (Nov 28, 2018)

Compare your dialogue to that of say your favorite author and how they write it, I'm not saying copy it; compare it. See what they did versus what you did and figure out why theirs works and yours doesn't, in a side by side comparison what's different?


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## NathanielleC (Nov 28, 2018)

Solus said:


> As I've begun to learn more and more about writing, this particular part of writing, dialogue, has been on my mind.



There's only three things I can suggest.

1: Read and look at how each author handles dialogue. Even non-fiction books that contain conversations use dialogue. 

2: Listen to how people speak. Watch shows, movies and news reports, or eaves drop in public.  Write things down if you think it will help and make notes about what's different in each bit of dialogue.

3: Pay attention to how you speak. 

Then the other challenge is knowing when and how to tag your dialogue but that's a different kettle of fish.


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## Olly Buckle (Nov 28, 2018)

I am not sure that listening to actual dialogue will help, with the real thing there is someone sitting there giving conformation that they understand with 'Uh-huh' and non-verbal clues. Not just that, as soon as people do understand they do things like interrupt, and talk over each other. Perhaps one should accept that it is not like the real thing, it needs to be clearer, people need to take turns as though they were chaired, not just pile in, and it confines itself to the purpose for which it is there, usually plot development, without all the asides as people are reminded of odd things. People transcribing real conversations have had to invent special conventions for doing so, usually involving separate columns, colours and even fonts to show non verbal and tonal clues. You can write in the odd non-verbal, but not all of them.


I would say write it to provide the information you want it to provide, then try and get it in character, so it is said the way that person would say it using their sort of vocabulary, developing plot and character together should give the reader enough to think about they won't question the artificiality, and after all, everything we write is an artifice of some kind.


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## bdcharles (Nov 28, 2018)

Can you try and get inside the mind of the character, or simply imagine being there with the character, and just let them talk? Have a conversation in your head with them and write what they say.


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## Ralph Rotten (Nov 28, 2018)

The most common problem I see with dialog is that people use it *just* for dialog.

To me, dialog is some of the most valuable real estate in a book because it is where your characters interact, and it is where you can paint the character and the scene around them. It is pure pay dirt. In fact, sitcoms are composed almost entirely of these interactions.

Ralph's rules for dialog
1) Avoid white space!
2) Continue to paint the characters AND the scene around them
3) It's okay to segue during dialog in order to better define the characters
4) Don't just add action, add actions and details that SPEAK TO THE NATURE OF THE CHARACTER

Here is something I whipped up real quick: 

_____________________________________________
"Why do you think I'd go along with that plan?" Daniel kept his distance, his hand hovering over the pistol concealed in his waistband.

"Because you'se a greedy sumbitch.  That's why."  Smiling wide enough to show the gap in his front teeth, Trevor seemed confident.  Folding his skinny arms, he exuded confidence.

Daniel's eyes narrowed to slits as he eyed his adversary.  It galled him to think his opponent knew him so well.  It was his nature to be suspicious of anything the gangly man offered.  Still, there was something to the proposal that piqued his interest.

"How exactly would this work?  Am I supposed to believe that you would cede the entire program to me?" Raising his voice an octave, Daniel was still having trouble imagining some of the mechanical aspects of this offer.  

"Seed?  What're ya? A dirt farmer."  A hollow laugh accompanied the insult. Trevor knew that few things galled his portly enemy as much as being laughed at.  He simply could not resist the jab.

"Simpleton."  Muttering just loud enough to be audible, Daniel felt confident with a loaded Glock in his belt.  "Cede, to give--"

"I know what the fuck it means!" Roaring as he straightened up to his full height, Trevor did his best to be intimidating.  "I was makin' fun...awww never fuckin mind.  No, I ain't giving you the whole project.  We'd partition it.  Bet ya didn't think I knew a fancy word like that, did ya?"

"It is a bit advanced for your usual vocabulary."  Letting out a breath slowly, Daniel tried to hide his discomfort at the moment.  The only thing worse than being intimidated by Trevor was having Trevor know that he felt intimidated.  If that were to ever happen, he knew that the gangly man would use it to dig him for the rest of their time together.


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## luckyscars (Nov 28, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> The most common problem I see with dialog is that people use it *just* for dialog.
> 
> To me, dialog is some of the most valuable real estate in a book because it is where your characters interact, and it is where you can paint the character and the scene around them. It is pure pay dirt. In fact, sitcoms are composed almost entirely of these interactions.
> 
> ...



I realize it's something you "just whipped up" but I find your technique in your example extremely repetitive. 

Look at the phrasing of the dialoguehere paying particular attention to the parts in bold:



> "Why do you think I'd go along with that plan?"* Daniel kept his distance, his hand hovering* over the pistol concealed in his waistband.
> 
> "Because you'se a greedy sumbitch. That's why." *Smiling wide enough to show the gap in his front teeth, Trevor seemed confident*. Folding his skinny arms, he exuded confidence.
> 
> ...



^See it?

 You use pretty much the exact same sentence format every single time in this exchange:* Dialogue-Action-comma-character name-purpose of said action-repeat*. 

A little repetition is fine, unavoidable, actually, and the dialogue itself (as in the words that are being spoken) is pretty good. The problem in this example is there is no real variation in how it is presented. There is no switch in pace. The formula as well as the constant spelling out of the character's psyche is pretty distracting.

I don't want to make this a critique when I know you only shared this for the purposes of example, but I think its important for the wider issue. Actually "white space" (which I interpret to mean dialogue without any attribution or accompanying tags/actions-correct me if that is wrong) is absolutely fine and saying otherwise is plain bad advice. Plenty of writers write entire scenes - hell _entire stories _sometimes - in nothing but non-attributed dialogue. It's fine so long as it works to convey the mood and carry the story.

On the contrary, too much spelling stuff out, constant "painting" becomes word heavy, which Ralph's example sure is, and leads to an overlong word count. More importantly it becomes not much fun to read because, as a reader, its hard work to have to pay attention to a conversation AND a relentless sense of "stuff happening" and "how it makes character _feel_". Since when did it become essential to make every goddamn line a psychodrama?

In my opinion good dialogue is no different to good writing generally. Variation is important. Clarity is currency. There's no need to overthink it or micromanage every detail - 99% of the time the reader will gather a pretty accurate sense of the character's frame of mind through word choice alone, just as they do in, say, text messaging. You don't need to constantly stage manage by describing how the character is breathing or what octave they're speaking at... 

...On the other hand sometimes those details _are _important and powerful. So its a judgement call and Reason #99181 why it's vital to read books to learn what works to create the effect versus what is just aimless waffle.


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## Annoying kid (Nov 29, 2018)

It's okay given it was just whipped up. However the value would be greater if you stuck to one PoV character instead of switching from Daniel's thoughts and feelings to Trevor's and back to Daniels: 


> Daniel was still having trouble imagining some of the mechanical aspects of this offer.
> 
> "Seed? What're ya? A dirt farmer." A hollow laugh accompanied the insult. Trevor knew that few things galled his portly enemy as much as being laughed at. He simply could not resist the jab.
> 
> "Simpleton." Muttering just loud enough to be audible, Daniel felt confident with a loaded Glock in his belt. "Cede, to give--"


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## Dluuni (Nov 29, 2018)

Ooh, ooh, are we doing random feedback on barely edited snippets as an object lesson? Awesome, I KNOW I'm not great at this yet, and I'm nowhere near a point where I can find real alpha readers yet.
I have to agree that dialog usually shouldn't just be dialog, but sometimes that other purpose doesn't need a lot of action. Other times not so much. On those dialogues that are unattributed text, you can still see backchannel characterization happening.

This bit, the important parts were exposition, the first line of dialog, and to set up P(F) and A1. I stuck it at 0% on the outline, but I'm not happy with how little tension I was able to insert. I seriously need to spend some quality time with my outline and my villain...
The other thought is that editing fixes many things. How much polishing are you putting on dialog before you judge your skill level? My first drafts are always garbage.
What qualities is it that you value in the works you are trying to emulate? Try literally copying a snippet of it with your keyboard or whatever you write with to see if you can identify some of the qualities in a more raw form.

---------------------
"If something is apocalyptic, it means that there are secrets being revealed. I mean, it's in the word. It's Latin. It means," I lifted my hands, and held first one out then the other to break the word into two pieces, "Apo-calypse. To remove a veil." I lowered my hands again, then lifted my somewhat stale latte from the table to take another sip. "Sure, it sounds like a cool word. But if you are going to be using it, there's got to be some secrets getting cracked open."

Izzy made a silent 'oh' with their mouth, then tilted their head to look out the window at the airstrip outside, Alaska Native features blending in with the dinner holding a bottle of soda near their mouth indecisively in their small hand, grey metal stretchy bracelet sliding slightly toward the elbow. Their straight, black hair had grown out since the last time I had seen them, tied back in a tail. 

Izzy had been carving a swath through the dictionary, using all sorts of grandiloquent new words ever since they heard I was going to college. I once emailed them a paper by the old school postmodernist Bourdieu; all slithery run-on sesquipedalian sentences winding their way down the page like some inhuman demonic serpent come to invade a children's educational show and transform the puppets into loathsome, mind-warping beasts from beyond the veil. It was positively saturated with grandiose verbage, none of which could possibly fit in a tiny Alaskan village. It had taken them days to read through it, and now, they were hooked on the thesaurus's promise of bigger and greater things. Sometimes, they would slip one of these words into whatever they were saying, usually correctly. The occasional glitch still poked through here and there, making what they said occasionally go a little bit off the rails - like calling an internet outage "Apocalyptic". 

"I didn't know about that; nobody ever pays attention in any of the books I read to that part of it. And it's not like anybody _here _cares." They frowned and squinted at me a little bit. "But, seriously. Lynn! Why do you even know that? I mean, that seems a little bit pointless for an _accountant_ to know anything about. Why do you need to learn etymology to do taxes? Wait, is that the words one, or the bugs one?"

"You used the right one. They make you learn all sorts of crazy things when you go to college. They say they want you to be, you know. 'Well-Rounded'. They want to make sure the professors can keep their jobs, is what it is. If I was running a school, that's what I would do." I took a sip of slightly stale latte, setting the ceramic cup down on the table. "Anyways, I don't have to worry about going back there. My diploma is in the mail! I just have to worry about getting an internship, putting in my two years apprenticeship, and then I can work wherever I want."

Izzy nodded, idly glancing out at the airplane taxiing back toward a parking space, single propeller making its distinctive choppy whirring sound outside as it rolled across the gravel. "So, what, did you have to ditch a boyfriend to come here or anything? I mean, you're pretty, and you take care of yourself. You must have guys asking you out all the time."

I shook my head. "No way. I don't do the boyfriend thing. They're expensive, they're whiny, they take way too much time, and they always have to be the successful one. If you start getting a better career than them, they'll try to shoot you in the foot." I frowned a bit. "Plus, boys mean babies. And I'm sorry, I'm not doing what my mom did. I saw how hard she had to work every day." I mean, sure. They're cute. And I like looking at them. And I would love to get my hands on one.. I just wouldn't want to risk it. It's just too dangerous. It would put me just one slip away from ruin. And I couldn't expect him to care.

Izzy nodded. "What about a girlfriend?" They grinned a bit and waggled their eyebrows in a comic caricature of flirtatious suggestiveness.

I looked down, and shook my head with a grin. "You goof, that doesn't even work on a blue day. You're practically my cousin! Girls still just don't do anything for me. Way too straight for that. I mean, I hope you're able to find somebody." I shrugged and lifted the cup again. "Would have been easier if I did like girls, but I'm just not wired for it. It isn't like I didn't get chances at college. I had a few friends that were pretty open about offering. But girls are just so.. Girly." 

Not that it wasn't really annoying sometimes to have to go home alone all the time when everyone else was enjoying themself. There's really only so much you can do for yourself. I can't even remember the last time I bought myself flowers, or set myself a reassuring text on a bad day. And, if I try to have a conversation with myself? People look at me funny.

Izzy frowned. "I guess. If you can't find anybody, I must be totally doomed."


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## Phil Istine (Nov 29, 2018)

Dluuni said:


> ---------------------
> "If something is apocalyptic, it means that there are secrets being revealed. I mean, it's in the word. It's Latin. It means," I lifted my hands, and held first one out then the other to break the word into two pieces, "Apo-calypse. To remove a veil." I lowered my hands again, then lifted my somewhat stale latte from the table to take another sip. "Sure, it sounds like a cool word. But if you are going to be using it, there's got to be some secrets getting cracked open."
> Izzy made a silent 'oh' with their mouth, then tilted their head to look out the window at the airstrip outside, Alaska Native features blending in with the dinner holding a bottle of soda near their mouth indecisively in their small hand, grey metal stretchy bracelet sliding slightly toward the elbow. Their straight, black hair had grown out since the last time I had seen them, tied back in a tail.
> Izzy had been carving a swath through the dictionary, using all sorts of grandiloquent new words ever since they heard I was going to college. I once emailed them a paper by the old school postmodernist Bourdieu; all slithery run-on sesquipedalian sentences winding their way down the page like some inhuman demonic serpent come to invade a children's educational show and transform the puppets into loathsome, mind-warping beasts from beyond the veil. It was positively saturated with grandiose verbage, none of which could possibly fit in a tiny Alaskan village. It had taken them days to read through it, and now, they were hooked on the thesaurus's promise of bigger and greater things. Sometimes, they would slip one of these words into whatever they were saying, usually correctly. The occasional glitch still poked through here and there, making what they said occasionally go a little bit off the rails - like calling an internet outage "Apocalyptic".
> ...



For me this is a classic case of not enough white space.  It makes the piece harder to read.  Where you have a line break, maybe make an extra blank line, and see if you might be able to do similar in other places.

If I'm finding it a little too compact for comfort, I imagine others might too.


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## Dluuni (Nov 29, 2018)

Ech, I forgot to insert those. I fear having to remove them later in the editing process for some reason. I added some breaks.


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## Phil Istine (Nov 29, 2018)

Dluuni said:


> Ech, I forgot to insert those. I fear having to remove them later in the editing process for some reason. I added some breaks.



Yes, a big improvement


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## bdcharles (Nov 29, 2018)

Dluuni said:


> Ooh, ooh, are we doing random feedback on barely edited snippets as an object lesson? Awesome, I KNOW I'm not great at this yet, and I'm nowhere near a point where I can find real alpha readers yet.
> I have to agree that dialog usually shouldn't just be dialog, but sometimes that other purpose doesn't need a lot of action. Other times not so much. On those dialogues that are unattributed text, you can still see backchannel characterization happening.
> 
> This bit, the important parts were exposition, the first line of dialog, and to set up P(F) and A1. I stuck it at 0% on the outline, but I'm not happy with how little tension I was able to insert. I seriously need to spend some quality time with my outline and my villain...
> ...




Despite a couple of early *repetitions *and some odd *pronouning*, you *win*. Says everything I need to know about your I, right there. Bravo! What is this from? Your WIP?


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## Ralph Rotten (Nov 29, 2018)

luckyscars said:


> I realize it's something you "just whipped up" but I find your technique in your example extremely repetitive.




Scars: Perhaps you should pen a better example to show us.


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## Ralph Rotten (Nov 29, 2018)

Annoying kid said:


> It's okay given it was just whipped up. However the value would be greater if you stuck to one PoV character instead of switching from Daniel's thoughts and feelings to Trevor's and back to Daniels:




Sorry kid, but you are absolutely wrong here.


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## Ralph Rotten (Nov 29, 2018)

Dluuni said:


> Ooh, ooh, are we doing random feedback on barely edited snippets as an object lesson? Awesome, I KNOW I'm not great at this yet, and I'm nowhere near a point where I can find real alpha readers yet.
> I have to agree that dialog usually shouldn't just be dialog, but sometimes that other purpose doesn't need a lot of action. Other times not so much. On those dialogues that are unattributed text, you can still see backchannel characterization happening.
> 
> This bit, the important parts were exposition, the first line of dialog, and to set up P(F) and A1. I stuck it at 0% on the outline, but I'm not happy with how little tension I was able to insert. I seriously need to spend some quality time with my outline and my villain...
> ...





See, this is how you reply when someone posts an example: You post something of your own to show how you do it.  I see a lotta people _talking the talk_ in this thread, but only a few actually _walking the walk_.  

Dluuni: That was actually pretty good work. You are good with the character developing segues, your dialog is tight, your actions are consistent.  My only suggestion is to use movements and actions that specifically speak to the nature of the character.  Otherwise, twas a good example of how to develop dialog.

Now the rest of you mugs need to put up or shut up.


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## Guard Dog (Nov 29, 2018)

Okay, Ralph... Putting up:  :icon_cheesygrin:


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Okay… recon mission complete. And oh boy, are you folks not gonna believe this shit,” J.D. said with a grin and shake of his head.

“So you didn’t get yourself killed. Were you detected at all?” Evie asked.

“Not that I could tell. Here, look:” he said, having his armor project a views screen, and the recorded video. “Here’s the source of your energy signature.”

“Ooooh shit…” was all Marcus said.

Evie just frowned, but remained silent. It was B’Ell who spoke first, the others being too shocked by the images to do any more than stare with their mouthed open.

“I don’t know if this is good news or bad, but I think I know what those are… They look like the pictures and diagrams I’ve seen in the old texts and data stores of the guards that were left to watch over the High Council’s installations, when the personnel were recalled.” Stepping closer, she had her own armor generate a similar display beside J.D.’s, which rapidly cycled through a series of images before stopping on one showing something very similar to the pair on J.D.’s screen.

“Notice a family resemblance?” she asked, with a half-smile.

“Yeah, J.D. said, “but what’s that mean for us? Trouble or not? After all, I am the Draeconis now, right?” J.D. didn’t care for the looks on either B’Ell’s or Evie’s faces.

“It may not be a problem…” Evie started, “if they don’t demand any specific access code or other identification, and will simply accept the codes from Panarr. If they do want something more,” she shrugged, “all we can do is fight… or bury the place and forget about it. Which I don’t expect you’re going do.”

“No, I’m not.” J.D. said “because even if you were okay with that, I don’t think anybody else here would be, and I know I never would. Besides, they’re in my goddamned basement now, not the Grand High Council’s. So they’re just gonna have to catch up and get with the times or get beat into submission,” J.D. said as he turned and started back toward the pair of giants on foot. 

“You guys comin’ or what?” he asked, glancing back at the stunned group, who finally got over their collective shock and began to follow.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That's how I've been goin' about it.

Oh, and Ralph? 'Brushstrokes' forthcoming, as soon as I edit that particular chapter again. 
I've mostly been concerning myself with that sort of stuff in edits, preferring to get the basic conversation down, then 'tuning up' what and how much it tells you after I've re-read it a couple of times.



G.D.


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## Kevin (Nov 29, 2018)

What are these people arguing about?

I don't now, something about how to write proper dialog. 

You guys should maybe read the thread, then you'd know what it's about. 

Look... All you gotta do with proper dialog is say it out loud, copy it down, and make sure you put all the right periods, commas, quotes, question marks, exclamation points, parenthesis, italics-

Genius.

What?

Like it's nothing...

This discussion could go on forever.

It could.

Why?

Just stop. 

Okay, we'll stop.

We will.

I said stop.

We said stop. 

Where's your name tag?

Where's yours?

I don't need one. 

Everyone needs one. 

Says you.

You have green teeth. 

You have brown teeth. 

Go sit on your question mark. 

I never asked a question- You did.


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## Annoying kid (Nov 29, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Sorry kid, but you are absolutely wrong here.



I'm not. 3rd person omniscient is rarely used nowadays, especially at the professional level. It's dated. And even if you used omniscient, whiplashing back and forth between the thoughts of all your characters that quick is jarring.


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## Terry D (Nov 29, 2018)

Annoying kid said:


> I'm not. 3rd person omniscient is rarely used nowadays, especially at the professional level. It's dated. And even if you used omniscient, whiplashing back and forth between the thoughts of all your characters that quick is jarring.



It's neither right nor wrong, it's a stylistic choice.


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## bdcharles (Nov 29, 2018)

*redacted for 1st rights*


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## luckyscars (Nov 29, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Scars: Perhaps you should pen a better example to show us.



Here is a random sample from an early draft of one of my novels that I ended up cutting later but have laying around on my cloud.

I'm not here to say this is "better" than anybody's. only that it shows what I mean by use of white space and how ensuring variations between quickfire, non-attributed conversation, action and the main character's thoughts (written in third person but with a defined POV) could work.

I feel there is a lot of information contained within the dialogue itself, which keeps what could have been a very long-winded interchange fairly short (~700 words - the entire bar chapter is right about a thousand some words).

------------------------------
_[FONT=&Verdana]“I got something else.” 
[/FONT]__[FONT=&Verdana]
The paper bag made a soft clunk on the bar. Immediately Big Bob’s eyes widened. “Fuck is that?” he muttered, his voice hushing as intrigue drilled its way across his wide, flat forehead.
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]“It’s…” I grinned stupidly, “...real valuable.”
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]“What is it?”
[/FONT]_
_I opened the bag. Immediately the bartender’s round face shifted, the intrigue becoming tepid disappointment as though he’d honestly expected a lump of gold or seven magic beans to fall out. It was funny how that worked, I thought. You can add a thin layer of even the most humble of mysteries and even cynical fat old shysters like Bob can be suckered in. The trick, of course, was keeping 'em that way. __[FONT=&Verdana]I pushed it toward him slowly. “That, my friend, is an antique. Real old.”
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]“Bullshit.” Even so his meaty paws reached for it, wrinkling his nose like it was something alive and breathing as he brushed his thumb carefully across the faint engravings. “Wassit made of? Some kinda metal...”
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]“Sure. Right.”
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]“It’s iron ain't it? Feels like iron.”
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]“It's real old,” I repeated, feeling uncertain. Was iron worth anything? Didn’t seem like it. I pushed the thing further into the neon light of the back bar. The blue cast a faint pearly shadow on the dull gray. “It’s got carvings see? Handmade.”
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]“Yeah.” Bob withdrew his thumb, wiping it gently on his plaid shirt. No longer either concerned or disappointed his expression was now that of growing indifference. Boredom, even.
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]“It’s artistic,” I promised.
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]Bob smirked at that. “Where did you steal it, Joe? Wasn’t no place round here I hope? Folks round here, they know me. Reckon they know you too.”
[/FONT]_
_“I told you already - I [/FONT][FONT=&Verdana]found[FONT=&Verdana] it.” 
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]“Where?"
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]“Just layin’ around.” I gave him a salesman’s smile. “You want it or not?”
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]"Doubt it." He looked doubtful too, but not entirely opposed. “How much would you be wanting?"
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]Figures rattled through my mind like a slot machine, all of them ridiculous. “Hundred?”
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]“A hundred what? Dollars?” Bob laughed, a loud donkeyish sound. “Heck I was thinking like a buck at most.”
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]“Seventy?”
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]“Seventy! Sooner buy the fuckin’ paper bag for that much.”
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]“Fifty?”
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]But he was shaking his head. “I’ll pay fifty to have one of them corner boys shove it up your ass sideways.”
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]“C’mon Bob, I need a solid I--” 

I paused, knowing that appealing to Big Bob’s mercy was about as likely to work as praying for Mrs. Hendershot to climb from her newfound grave and waddle down to The Big Time with the rest of Dead Ronnie’s insurance dough in her crusty old claws. 

“How about twenty? You could get triple that much for it easy. Like, on eBay or something y'know? You got a computer don’t you?” I sighed, positive Bob had no computer. “Or some dealership downtown? Once you figure out what it is I’m sure you could easily--”
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]“I don’t give a damn what it is.” Big Bob reached behind for the rag he used to wipe down the Big Time’s table, pressed it to his rudderlike nose and snorted into it. “Young man this is a bar, not a pawnshop.”
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]“But Bob--”
[/FONT]_
_“__[FONT=&Verdana]I know exactly why you need money.” Bob’s face tightened and I saw it, a flicker of guilt run across his face. Hypocritical bastard. “And guess what? I don't care what you do. But maybe instead of pushing crap on people you oughta think about getting your goddamn GED or a decent job or whatever? You're young still, you can do that. Find somethin' that’ll actually pay for you to put things up your nose instead of screwin' over folks just tryin' to make an honest living.” 
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]I glared at him. This wasn't the first time and Bob on his high-horse was worse than every born again crackpot put together. “What are you, my goddamn dad?”
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]“Nope. Lucky for the both of us.” He turned, picking up another glass. He began polishing it carefully with the booger rag. “We done here?”
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]I nodded slowly. 
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]“Then get the hell out of my bar.”
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]My head swam when I got up. A sensation that was frightening with the lingering thrill-feeling in my chest. Withdrawal symptoms, I guess, though it could just as easily have been hunger or exhaustion. All I know is for a moment I seriously considered smashing the heavy piece of whatever-the-hell-this-thing-was over Big Bob’s greasy old man head. Not because I was angry at what he had said. Not really. Certainly it wasn’t because I wanted to hurt the old asshole. No, I was just thinking of the battered old lock box, the one he kept behind the bar. Together with whatever I could lift from his wallet I figured it could just be enough to pay off Remus. Could pave the way to another 'teenth. There were no other thoughts. No other feelings. Just that, that need.
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]“Bob?” 

 The thick blob of his turned back ignored me even as I marched back to the bar. Sweat was now dripping down my face from the increasingly heavy heat of neon. 

“Bob? Hey!"[/FONT]__[FONT=&Verdana] 

[/FONT][FONT=&Verdana]Bob turned, his face black with hatred. "What?"

[/FONT]__[FONT=&Verdana]“Just one thing.” I swallowed. “When I first came in, you said you were wondering when I’d show up.”
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]“I did?”
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]“Yeah, you did...how come you said that?"
[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]"Uh..." Bob rubbed his face, frowning. “Oh yeah, that's right. Somebody came in here a few minutes before you did. This woman. Young enough. Kinda cute I guess."

I stared at him, speechless.

"I know. Bizarre ain't it?" Bob smirked. "Well she was asking when you'd be in. Knew your name. Seemed to know an awful lot about you come to think of it.”[/FONT]_
_[FONT=&Verdana]
[/FONT]_


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## Guard Dog (Nov 29, 2018)

So is this thread in danger of becomin' a "Dialogue-off" or something?



G.D.


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## Bloggsworth (Nov 29, 2018)

I will guarantee that your phone has a recording facility, so make a rough sketch of what you want your characters to say then, from memory, act out the conversation, leave it a while, then play it back to see if it actually sounds as you want it - Don't worry if people think you are talking to yourself... After a while you may find that you can write it directly as you now have a handle on how your characters speak - Fake accents for fun, it'll play with the rhythm and intonation and you'll stop worrying and just do it...


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## luckyscars (Nov 29, 2018)

Annoying kid said:


> I'm not. 3rd person omniscient is rarely used nowadays, especially at the professional level. It's dated. And even if you used omniscient, whiplashing back and forth between the thoughts of all your characters that quick is jarring.



What you are doing here is making sweeping generalizations about an entire style because of poor execution. 

Third person omniscient is still used by plenty of writers and always will be. Moreover there is nothing wrong with the way Ralph used it - my issues with his excerpt were simply with his sentence structure and what I find to be an overload of unnecessary dialogue attributions and micro-managing of suspense. 

Plenty of contemporary writers, from JK Rowling (the entire Harry Potter series) to Dan Brown to Stephen King to Michael Crichton to George RR Martin have used and continue to use 3PO. In addition many, if not most, YA and children's books are written in 3PO.

Sorry the above aren't "professional" enough for you.


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## Jack of all trades (Nov 29, 2018)

luckyscars said:


> What you are doing here is making sweeping generalizations about an entire style because of poor execution.
> 
> Third person omniscient is still used by plenty of writers and always will be. Moreover there is nothing wrong with the way Ralph used it - my issues with his excerpt were simply with his sentence structure and what I find to be an overload of unnecessary dialogue attributions and micro-managing of suspense.
> 
> ...




Rowling only followed Harry around and showed Harry's thoughts, with a couple exceptions (which annoyed me, personally).


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## Jack of all trades (Nov 29, 2018)

Bloggsworth said:


> I will guarantee that your phone has a recording facility, so make a rough sketch of what you want your characters to say then, from memory, act out the conversation, leave it a while, then play it back to see if it actually sounds as you want it - Don't worry if people think you are talking to yourself... After a while you may find that you can write it directly as you now have a handle on how your characters speak - Fake accents for fun, it'll play with the rhythm and intonation and you'll stop worrying and just do it...



Great advice.


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## luckyscars (Nov 29, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> Rowling only followed Harry around and showed Harry's thoughts, with a couple exceptions (which annoyed me, personally).



Actually there are more than a couple exceptions and one of them is the opening chapter of the very first book. Presumably the very place you would think any fledgling author would want to avoid an impression of any "dated" style choices...

You can quibble away about the intricacies of Harry Potter if you like. I am not interested. Everything I said regarding 3PO is 100% true...and this thread is about dialogue.


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## Annoying kid (Nov 29, 2018)

luckyscars said:


> What you are doing here is making sweeping generalizations about an entire style because of poor execution.
> 
> Third person omniscient is still used by plenty of writers and always will be. Moreover there is nothing wrong with the way Ralph used it - my issues with his excerpt were simply with his sentence structure and what I find to be an overload of unnecessary dialogue attributions and micro-managing of suspense.
> 
> ...



Most of them aren't actually. Dan Brown's work is overrated, Jk Rowling's a great concept with mediocre execution, George RR Martin fails to create attachment to characters, haven't bothered with Crichton and Steven King is good.  
3rd person limited is objectively superior if you're going to use omniscient to have multiple characters in a scene and tell us what each one is thinking and switch back and forth in rapid succession. Expecting the reader to see through one character's thoughts, then quickly through another's then back to another's all in the span of a few sentences doesn't work as rapid head hopping is  alien to how human beings experience reality.


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## Dluuni (Nov 29, 2018)

Re: 3rd person omniscient-
It's not bad, but it is out of fashion. People are less used to it, so make sure to be extra careful with tagging thoughts to sources. There's ways to manage the viewpoint to make sure that it doesn't confuse anyone, often making the narrator a virtual character in some way, that you don't need with the first and third-singular forms.

And yes, it's one of my tries at the introduction to my WIP.


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## luckyscars (Nov 29, 2018)

Annoying kid said:


> Most of them aren't actually. Dan Brown's work is overrated, Jk Rowling's a great concept with mediocre execution, George RR Martin fails to create attachment to characters, haven't bothered with Crichton and Steven King is good.
> 3rd person limited is objectively superior if you're going to use omniscient to have multiple characters in a scene and tell us what each one is thinking and switch back and forth in rapid succession. Expecting the reader to see through one character's thoughts, then quickly through another's then back to another's all in the span of a few sentences doesn't work as rapid head hopping is  alien to how human beings experience reality.



George RR Martin is literally known for creating attachment to characters. It's a big reason why he is popular - why thousands of his readers reportedly express fear he will die before finishing the series. And saying JK Rowling, the biggest selling author of all time has "mediocre execution" is pretty epic.

Anyway, whenever somebody tries to tell me a particular style of writing is "objectively superior" to another I am afraid I must smile and bow out.

 This is about dialogue. Maybe you could post some of yours?


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## luckyscars (Nov 29, 2018)

Dluuni said:


> Re: 3rd person omniscient-
> It's not bad, but it is out of fashion. People are less used to it, so make sure to be extra careful with tagging thoughts to sources. There's ways to manage the viewpoint to make sure that it doesn't confuse anyone, often making the narrator a virtual character in some way, that you don't need with the first and third-singular forms.



First of all I'm not sure what benefit being "in fashion" has to writing. 99.9% of the time if you try to write a story "fashionably" by the time you have finished it whatever is in vogue will have changed to something else. Ask anybody who has tried to write a YA vampire romance over the past few years on the back of what was a fad in 2009: You can't publish that crap now. Writing a book according to fashions and trends is plainly idiotic. It runs counter to the purpose of storytelling, which is to strive for something with the feel of originality, not something that reads like everybody else.

Secondly this is another example of asserting as broad fact something that is just not the case. Sure 3PO may be less common in mainstream LitFic nowadays than when Nathaniel Hawthorne was knocking about but it is still extremely popular in many kinds of speculative genre fictionwhich is, I believe, what Ralph Rotten writes. Plenty of fantasy novels employ it (especially ones in the Lord Of The Rings or Game Of Throne vein) and its pretty common in sci-fi too. I already mentioned YA and middle grade where simpler dialogue with less subtext is needed. These are not lesser markets and their authors not less professional writers.

Ultimately point of view should be about conveying the scene to the reader in the most clear and vivid way. Nothing else is important. No editor or agent or publishing hawk has ever thrown away a manuscript purely because it was written in a certain POV style.


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## Sir-KP (Nov 29, 2018)

I'm so freaking lost in this thread. Did OP ask about how to write a dialog or how to write a dialog format?

If it's the latter, I need more insight because I'm a bit unsure what can and what can't be written like.


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## Guard Dog (Nov 29, 2018)

Hell, if I have to be "in fashion", I'm fucked before I even start... Unless what I was reading 30 years ago suddenly comes back in style. 

Because most if not all of what I read was 3rd person. Piers Anthony, Allen Dean Foster, Arthur C. Clark, Burroghs... and every damned comic book I've ever picked up. In fact, Glory Road is the first one I recall written by Heinlein being first person, but I haven't read any of his other stuff in a while.

Matter of fact, I can count every 1st person book I've ever read on one hand... and still have fingers left over.
( Glory Road, Moby Dick, and Treasure Island being those that come to mind. )


G.D.


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## Theglasshouse (Nov 29, 2018)

No one has to be in "fashion" it seems these days. If you work hard maybe you will get something written worth your time one day. The more you desire success, the more disciplined people will become to attain a larger than life goal. A work that is immutable, and hopefully is something someone is proud of. Discipline requires you be ambitious it seems. I believe the habits of great writers are unique. You can break rules such as the fourth wall. In writing, you play the god by creating the world of your story. So writing is a solitary habit that requires some "faith" on part of the writer and constant discouragement. Failure is normal in publishing. I recall one person saying they played chess to make friends, not to attain their goal of becoming a good chess player.

Point of view, there's no real link between it being superior, one over the other. While I haven't read Tarzan, which sounds boring, it has some nice plot twists that involve emotion. Such as an ape adopting a baby temporarily from a mother which is just genius. It breaks all the rules of what gets published it seems. Something a literary agent would say no too or countless of them. I saw the Disney cartoon even. Art is subjective and not objective. Style such as pov for me doesn't lessen my appreciation of what is written.


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## Guard Dog (Nov 29, 2018)

Hey, Theglasshouse... How about a man laying down and going into a death-like coma and finding that when he wakes up, he's on another planet, even though his body is still back on hearth where he left it?

Burroughs used that trick for his Mars series with John Carter.

By the way, my whole point with this "fashionable" thing is I'm not interested in any of that... I just want to write a good story.

And I don't think point of view has anything to do with that; it's either a good story or it's not.

...and that means writing good dialogue. Or dialog, if you prefer that spelling.


G.D.


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## Dluuni (Nov 29, 2018)

luckyscars said:


> First of all I'm not sure what benefit being "in fashion" has to writing.


If it's in fashion, analytics works for you and readers will find your writing more comfortable and easy to read, it will be easier to get people to like your work. That's not to say people won't love your second person vampire book, but it will be harder to get them to like it.


luckyscars said:


> 99.9% of the time if you try to write a story "fashionably" by the time you have finished it whatever is in vogue will have changed to something else. ...
> Writing a book according to fashions and trends is plainly idiotic. It runs counter to the purpose of storytelling, which is _to strive for something with the feel of originality, not something that reads like everybody else_.


Lots of people are making their careers on selling to market. There's nothing wrong with crafting things that you know people will buy. You don't have to do it if you have a market that likes your writing just the way you do. If you are trying to emulate a popular author or cluster of authors so you can connect with that crowd, the only fashion you need to care about is the one _they _created.
If you have reasons to use 3PO, by all means use 3PO. It might slightly slow your reviews if it's not a viewpoint readers of your genre are accustomed to, but it might make your story better, that's your decision to make. Whatever you do, do it well and do it to serve your story and pacing better.


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## Guard Dog (Nov 29, 2018)

From here:  Novel Writing Help

"So Which Viewpoint Is Best?

If you think I’m trying to persuade any fence-sitters out there to jump down on the third person side, you’re not far wrong.

Taking all of the arguments into consideration, they stack up in favor of using 3rd person point of view. Almost overwhelmingly so. Here’s why…

    First person point of view is generally considered to be the easier viewpoint to handle, but it simply isn’t so. Once you’ve mastered the theory behind each viewpoint, there’s nothing difficult about either of them.

    First person is certainly more intimate than third person. But it’s possible to virtually replicate this intimacy in third person prose.

    Third person is more immediate than 1st person. Even using the past tense doesn’t destroy this illusion of being rooted in the here and now. (But this advantage really isn’t a deal-breaker if you want to write a first person novel.)

    Third person isn’t claustrophobic like first person can be. And it’s more objective, too, presenting a more rounded portrait of the central character.

    Most important of all, using third person point of view gives you the greatest freedom as a storyteller. How come? Because you can move the “camera” around a lot more than in first person prose (where the camera is stuck behind the viewpoint character’s eyes all the way through)."



Anyway...  Check please!
( Meaning I'm done. Y'all have fun. )


G.D.


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## Dluuni (Nov 29, 2018)

Guard Dog said:


> From here:  Novel Writing Help
> "So Which Viewpoint Is Best?


I'd rather not see the whole discussion devolve into a discussion of viewpoints in a response to a question about DIALOGUE. They're all good viewpoints to use in their place. Viewpoint doesn't have that much to do with dialogue except for how much intimacy you can get with one character as opposed to how much you can reveal about other characters.  

More interesting is how you are measuring the quality of the dialogue. It needs to have good pacing and tension that holds attention, and it has to communicate voice. Is your dialog doing those things? Personally, I don't mind if I put down some very choppy and insipid stuff as long as it was a page turner that didn't confuse anybody.


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## Theglasshouse (Nov 29, 2018)

It's better to admit some valid points if sound. I think Dlunni brought up a valid argument. Rather than be stubborn I want to talk about this.

When I do some reading in my spare time I'll keep Burroughs in mind Guard Dog. I know that "fashion" can mean anything in the writing world. We need to agree with what following fashion in fiction is. I will just say it is to many market trends. But when you think about it, it is about genre and that can be a cross-genre work.

Some genres of novels sell better than others. That's what I agree with but we can use the information to write work that people would want to pick up. I've even seen some statistics on it. I might post it later as in tomorrow since I am in a rush to sleep and go to bed. But if romance sells maybe someone might as well write a romance subplot. With a bit of science fiction or mix it with fantasy. I have no disagreements with that advice. Despite the fact, a reader has to be the art critic, and that is where I don't share that point of view. It's not an absolute but a maybe, this will improve your odds. Of course there are literary agents, and of course, if you write a novel, you don't have to cater to a market that doesn't exist. Using a subplot, you can market your work, make it good enough for someone such as a literary agent to take a chance.

Many plots cater to fantasies that are escapist according to people who make claims on this. I have the inclination to believe it would become harder for a reader to take chances on a work. Thrillers consistently sell because of the threat of death element. Imagine the psychology of someone who wants to have a good time reading a book. Such as the age group that reads the most.

It's true you shouldn't ignore your audience. Most of them are women. But you should strive for a middle where there is a right balance. If it were me I would try to gain an understanding of what people crave to read. Maybe even pitch the idea to a couple of people. I am not opposed to it since I like the idea of creating a story that can be understood in a blurb or jacket text that sounds appealing.

Let's not kill creativity though since someone people prefer to write their own story and feel motivated. That's an inner struggle that needs to be won since many need to finish a project. The motivation isn't always to earn a lot of money but to enjoy some decent amount of success.


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## luckyscars (Nov 30, 2018)

Dluuni said:


> If it's in fashion, analytics works for you and readers will find your writing more comfortable and easy to read, it will be easier to get people to like your work. That's not to say people won't love your second person vampire book, but it will be harder to get them to like it.
> 
> Lots of people are making their careers on selling to market. There's nothing wrong with crafting things that you know people will buy. You don't have to do it if you have a market that likes your writing just the way you do. If you are trying to emulate a popular author or cluster of authors so you can connect with that crowd, the only fashion you need to care about is the one _they _created.
> If you have reasons to use 3PO, by all means use 3PO. It might slightly slow your reviews if it's not a viewpoint readers of your genre are accustomed to, but it might make your story better, that's your decision to make. Whatever you do, do it well and do it to serve your story and pacing better.



I addressed in another very recent discussion that I absolutely agree that the market should influence - nay, _govern _- one's stylistic choices wherever possible. Stubborn people who like to wax lyrical about how they march to the beat of their own creative drum more often than not squander what little talent they have out of sheer refusal to compromise. That isn't in dispute.

What is in dispute is the absolutely baseless claim that there is some sort of reader expectation when it comes to POV. I already told you, I've said it _multiple times, _there is no such expectation, that readers don't think about POV anymore than people who ride a bus think about its tire pressure. Your assertion that this stuff would in itself somehow "slow reviews" is based on no evidence whatsoever.

As far as fashion? Again, I have yet to see a single book come out that resembled any that came before it in any major way and still garner rave reviews. That doesn't, however, mean you ignore reader trends or pretend you're some sort of avant garde genius. It does mean you don't give up completely legitimate stylistic choices out of fear of alienating readers who plainly are just there for a good story.


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## Solus (Nov 30, 2018)

_This thread has devolved beyond my wildest imagination.

*Send help


*_



Just kidding, it's been an interesting read. Think my best course of action is to consume more books in English, to learn from those more accomplished than me. 



_


But Jesus Christ, what happened to this thread_


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## Guard Dog (Nov 30, 2018)

Solus said:


> But Jesus Christ, what happened to this thread



I dunno. I'm tempted to write out a conversation between him and Lucifer, where they discuss it, but I don't like being chased by people with torches and pitchforks....  :hororr:

But then, it's a thread about dialog... and I haven't had much exercise lately, so maybe fightin' off angry villagers would do me some good... so...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Lucifer: What did you do?

Jesus: Me? I didn't do anything. That's your routine, not mine.

Lucifer: Oh yeah, blame it on me again. I wasn't even there, and didn't touch it. Besides, I've told you a million times they don't need me making 'em do anything. They get up to all sorts of nonsense all on their own.

Jesus: Well somebody certainly did something. And I haven't gotten near any of 'em since they pinned me up like a butterfly in some kid's collection.

Lucifer: Yeah well, I warned you that was gonna happen at the time, didn't I? But no, you didn't listen... 'oh it'll be fine. I'm just gonna talk to 'em'. Yeah. I told you they were screwed-up and unpredictable.

Jesus: Yes yes... I know. I tell ya, dad really shouldn't have had that last drink before creating them....

Lucifer: Yeah... Not his best work.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


:icon_cheesygrin::joker: :devilish:

There... Back to dialog again.

G.D.


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## Guard Dog (Dec 1, 2018)

So Solus... Are we done here, or would you like more examples?




G.D.


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## JJBuchholz (Dec 12, 2018)

Guard Dog said:


> All I can tell you is get the characters to have a conversation. Listen to it in your mind, and then write it down.
> 
> Think about how you talk to other people, or how the dialog runs in movies and such.
> 
> That's all it it; a conversation.



Exactly! Conversation will help you set the tone. Perhaps go to a public place where people frequently interact and listen. Body language plays a huge part as well.

-JJB


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## Ralph Rotten (Dec 12, 2018)

Guard Dog said:


> I dunno. I'm tempted to write out a conversation between him and Lucifer, where they discuss it, but I don't like being chased by people with torches and pitchforks....  :hororr:
> 
> But then, it's a thread about dialog... and I haven't had much exercise lately, so maybe fightin' off angry villagers would do me some good... so...
> 
> ...




I could see that being very funny. Play up the part about how he doesn't have to work hard, say that humans are more reliable than a Maytag, play up how he has nothing to do all day. POOF and he's wearing the maytag repairman uniform.


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## Ralph Rotten (Dec 12, 2018)

For me when I write dialog, I view it as some of the most valuable real estate in the book because I get to have characters speak, act, and interact with other characters. Dialog is where all of the interactions between characters play out.  A good dialog scene can be like a mini-sitcom.  That chemistry between the players is what people tune in for.

I try to not only focus in what is being said, but the brush strokes between the dialog. I try to continually paint the world and the characters. It helps the reader remember who is talking, and better defines them in the reader's mind.

Okay, I gotta get back to the spice mines of Kessel.

$0.02


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## J.J. Maxx (Dec 13, 2018)

Guard Dog said:


> I dunno. I'm tempted to write out a conversation between him and Lucifer, where they discuss it, but I don't like being chased by people with torches and pitchforks....  :hororr:
> 
> But then, it's a thread about dialog... and I haven't had much exercise lately, so maybe fightin' off angry villagers would do me some good... so...
> 
> ...



You're going to write a bit of dialogue without writing it in proper format? Tisk tisk. 


Lucifer walked briskly along the path, despising the golden sheen blazing off the shimmering bricks. His face was stern. "What did you do?" he hissed, confronting the man in white robes who was talking with an angel. 

Dismissing the angel, Jesus turned to face the scaly figure. "Me?" he said, casting a exhausted glance at the trail of black ash Lucifer was leaving in his wake. "I didn't do anything. That's your routine, not mine."

Lucifer crossed his arms across his chest. "Oh sure, blame it on me again. I wasn't even there, and didn't touch it. Besides, I've told you a million times they don't need me making 'em do anything. They get up to all sorts of nonsense all on their own."

"Well somebody certainly did something. And I haven't gotten near any of 'em since they pinned me up like a butterfly in some kid's collection."

The red figure leaned against a marble pillar. "Yeah well, I warned you that was gonna happen at the time, didn't I? But no, you didn't listen... _'Oh it'll be fine,'_ you said. _'I'm just gonna talk to 'em'_. Yeah. I told you they were screwed-up and unpredictable. This is your fault." His accusatory tone was sharp and direct.

A slight tinge of anger crossed his face, but quickly faded. Jesus sighed. "Yes, yes, I know. I tell ya, dad really shouldn't have had that last drink before creating them."

Lucifer collapsed on a nearby cloud and blew small rings of smoke from his mouth. "Yeah," he said. "Not his best work."

Dialogue in real life is much more than the words that are spoken. The body language, the tone, the inclinations, the small subtleties that speak beyond the language. Writing dialogue is a dance. It is a seamless weaving of action and voice into a three-dimensional scene. It is painting, each brush stroke a perfect mix of intangible social cues and facial expressions. I tend to rely too much on dialogue and it is a struggle for me, but it is my favorite type of writing. 

The problem with reading books with great dialogue is that you _don't notice the writing_. That's what makes it great. All the tags and descriptors disappear and all that's left is the perfect scene playing out in your mind. The moment the reader sees the words on the page, you've lost them.

Cheers.

J. J.


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## Kevin (Dec 13, 2018)

... 

Alternately, you don't have to have tags and descriptors if the dialog is strong enough. For that matter, if the dialog is strong enough, you don't even need quotes.

I've seen it, read it; was able to follow it, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one because the book I'm thinking of was already popular. It won a Pulitzer. 

I'm not saying to not use tags, quotes, or descriptors, but you don't have to have them- if the dialog is strong enough. That's something I think about.


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## Guard Dog (Dec 13, 2018)

J.J. Maxx said:


> You're going to write a bit of dialogue without writing it in proper format? Tisk tisk.



I did that in about 2 minutes, without even thinking about it.

And I wanted to show that even a list format without the usual tags could get the job done with a simple conversation.

Did I succeed or not?

P.S. It's tough to show body language and such with disembodied spirits, so tags are limited any way.


G.D.


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## Kyle R (Dec 13, 2018)

Solus said:


> As I've begun to learn more and more about writing, this particular part of writing, dialogue, has been on my mind.
> 
> *I can't make it work
> *
> ...



The best trick I've learned so far:

It's much easier to write dialogue for characters if you fully know their motivations (and their internal struggles, as well). Dialogue is more than just a conversation—it's usually a form verbal conflict, between characters who want different things.

The better you know your characters and what they're trying to accomplish, the more you'll find that their dialogue will practically write itself. :encouragement:


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## Solus (Dec 15, 2018)

That is... actually the best advice I've gotten so far. Thanks


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## elissasmart (Jan 18, 2019)

movietime.guru/quentin-tarantino-the-power-of-dialogue-and-how-to-write-it-54ca4c4f7ec9

Probably, this is more suitable for movies, but I hope you'll learn something from that


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## JustRob (Aug 4, 2019)

I thought that there was a thread about writing dialogue somewhere, but was it really so long ago? Where have I been? Time travelling again no doubt. Also I don't appear to have commented here or I just missed my earlier comment while scanning through quickly. Well, here's my untimely correction to that oversight, if needed.

Dialogue serves the same purpose as any other part of one's text, to show and tell the story. Fortunately we experience plenty of real life dialogue unless we are particularly reclusive, so research simply involves giving some thought to how our everyday dialogue actually works. Whether that style can be employed in our writing and exactly how is certainly something to give plenty of thought though and, as J. J. Maxx observed, is possibly one of the more difficult but rewarding aspects of writing. When a university tutor in English literature read my draft novel he observed that my dialogue stood out as being particularly realistic, something that his real students seldom achieved. Having had no previous experience in fiction writing I can only assume that this was because I am a pedantic listener who pays attention to what people say rather than just jumping to conclusions about what they mean. I also frequently and annoyingly jump to the wrong conclusion exactly because I have heeded their actual words and not just searched for the meaning behind them. I can only suggest then that to master dialogue one should listen not just for the meaning in real dialogue but to the actual words spoken. Here's an actual example from earlier today.

While preparing our lunch my angel asked me to "get two small dishes out of the cabinet, the ones under the milk jug that isn't there at the moment." Even though there were several piles of small dishes in the cabinet I chose the right ones. Would this scene and dialogue work in a story though and what would it tell and show to the reader? If one keeps an ear open to daily dialogue then it is possible to get an understanding of what it achieves, especially if one overhears a conversation between strangers as this emphasises the showing element as well as the direct telling. In this deceptively simple example my angel's request might alone have implied that she was a dizzy blonde but, even though she actually is blonde and has mentioned that the strong medication that she has been taking recently has made her a little dizzy, the fact that I complied with her request shows something else, that I am well acquainted with the regular contents of that cabinet and know exactly where the milk jug would be if it were there. In a story this apparently droll incident would equally show that I was not merely a casual visitor but a regular acquaintance if the text had not otherwise told the reader this. Indeed in a detective story it might be a vital clue and such covert dialogue devices are used in such stories. 

The typical writer is often portrayed as someone closeted away typing furiously to produce amazing stories out of thin air, but that can't be true. They are more likely to be the person sitting quietly in some relatively public place observing and listening to real life. That is certainly where the guide book to realistic dialogue is to be found, so stop reading and instead start really listening.


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