# God as the bad guy



## Skinnyjeans

Hi, I’m trying to gauge opinion (and incidentally make up my own mind) on representation of God as a more villainous figure in fiction. 

It is a facet as opposed to a main thrust in a story, but it does interest me personally quite a lot in theory. 

Naively, I am really not sure how controversial it is as a subject so my question is this: do people feel very strongly about this in the context of fictional work, or do they just not care?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated, thanks.


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## C.M. Aaron

I don't specifically recall any modern stories where God has a dark side or is all out evil. In medieval fiction it is common for the villain to be a corrupt clergyman, but this is not a direct assault on God. Rather it is a flawed human in the service of God. You could set that kind of story in the modern world. Use any of those TV evangelists who got caught up in scandal as a model.

There are modern variations on the Job story where people wonder why a good God allowed a bad thing to happen to them. This idea can be taken much further and the character can temporarily loose their faith in a good God, but the story must turn right in the end. The Greeks and Romans had a whole pantheon of gods, some of them good and some bad. The Greeks, in particular, liked to tell stories of humans as the playthings of mischievous gods.

The Old Testament God has a vengeful side. In the stories of Noah and Lot (Sodom and Gomorrah), God does some pretty nasty things in the name of doing good. If you took those as models, I do not think people would be too upset.


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## seigfried007

Or you could view Sodom and pre-Flood world like God putting down a rabid dog.

God as the enemy is featured in Star Trek V and Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy. In order to make God villianous, you would have to make it not God. An indifferent Lovecraftian god could be plausible, but would not make sense in light of his holy texts not calling for mutants and human sacrifice.


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## TheFuhrer02

^ +1 on Pullman, though Pullman's was more on the Vatican, still, it touched on God as a sort of villain.

There's also Legion, the movie starring Paul Bettany. True, God there wasn't bad, but it touched on God as a sort of antagonist, as he lost hope in the human race and decided to destroy them.

Another example would be Constantine, another movie, this time starring Keanu Reeves. In this one, God was more like leaning towards a neutral position, but you have to admit, *spoiler alert* Him sending Gabriel to eliminate Constantine out of the equation at that hospital scene showed that God was against the protagonist, making him rather the villain.

Having said these, God as a villain isn't a new concept, and should be acceptable to many as you're writing fiction. Of course, His portrayal as the villain should be made with tact, so as not to be offensive to people.


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## Woodroam

Be careful. If you're going to do this don't use Allah, Muhammad, or Quran unless you like to live on the edge.


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## Skinnyjeans

Woodroam said:


> Be careful. If you're going to do this don't use Allah, Muhammad, or Quran unless you like to live on the edge.



I _definitely_ had no intention of going down this route!

Thankyou very much for your responses, very much appreciated!


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## WolfieReveles

Actually, I see no problem in creating an image of God as an antagonist:
He demands servitude but gives us free will as a sort of twisted game. "I give you freedom, but if you use it in any way other than what I see fit you will burn in hell."
He has his angels who aren't even allowed to question or doubt him. Lackeys that he sends out either as assassins or couriers but mostly they smite people, or demons, or entire cities even.
All this is masked behind an image of love to justify servitude.
He can't explain why he does what he does or demands what he demands because ultimately His greater good doesn't benefit us. We aren't really included in His plan. Instead he makes us believe that his ways are mysterious and he's just that much better. Don't ask why, you wouldn't understand. Simply trust in Him and remain faithful.

Then you have Lucifer. Lucifer was his closest angel, his best servant and loyal follower. Contrary to popular myth, Lucifer was at first only standing up for his rights. He didn't want to bow before Adam and he didn't want to serve anyone but God, who he did acknowledge as his rightful superior. It was only when God rejected Lucifer's plight that he began to oppose God. He was basically the farmhand who simply didn't want to be treated as if he were inferior to the pigs he looked after. He wanted some recognition for his eons of servitude, his rightful place as the Angel of Light. Instead God chose his new pet as the favorite and basically told Lucifer to sod off. Lucifer gathers a third of all the angels on his side and they oppose this insult, the remaining angels fight them, their own brothers, because God demands it. Then God casts them down from heaven and into the underworld, knowingly allowing them to spread across the earth as demons and taint humanity. He doesn't care. He has devised a species that reproduces at an alarming rate and no matter how many are corrupted, he's still getting enough souls.

Then you have heaven, which is really just a collection of all the most compliant, controllable servants, all convinced that his Master Plan is awesome and willing to give everything for him. Having reached Paradise only strengthens their conviction so now he can pretty much convince them of anything, how ever wrong it may sound. He's basically breeding the perfect army of goons and throwing all the rejects back into the furnace.

After reading the Biblical God between the lines it's hard NOT to see him as an antagonist, not to mention the greatest enemy of democracy and freedom ever.


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## Olly Buckle

Catch 22, Yosarian denies his existence and then says how if he did exist he would have to be twisted to make the world the way it is, but more eloquently than that, follows the wonderful line "That's not the God I don't believe in!"


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## Cambyses

What God?  The Christian God?  Allah?  A Pagan God?  Many Gods in polytheistic religions were reflections of humans, complete with bad sides (think Greek and Norse pantheons).  Casting a modern, monotheistic God worshiped by hundreds of millions of people as an antagonist probably won't help sell your book.


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## Robert_S

You could portray God as a master manipulator. He made the human body, made sex pleasant, but also denied us freely expressing and enjoying it. Who knows what he really plans for us.

I like Wolfie's synopsis. Why not see his plan as making us sheep?  We already view that idea on earth as a bad practice.


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## Monkey Doctor

I think it all depends on how you represnt him/her/it. People might not like it if you portray him/her/it going around impregnating innocent virgins. Oh wait hang on...

Sorry joking aside I am dealing with a similar issue. I am working on a book where many (fictitious) religions come into conflict. One of them (the main religion of the world I am writing) is a monotheistic religion that is all sweetness and light on the surface, a little like christianity. This god however is one of many deities venerated in one of the other religions on the planet yet he is considered an evil deity by thes followers of this polytheistic religion. I am currently working through the conflict. I think people will see the parallels but I am not going to be too blatant about it. I hope that in this way I avoid any retribution form religious fanatics!


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## Pariah

Woodroam said:


> Be careful. If you're going to do this don't use Allah, Muhammad, or Quran unless you like to live on the edge.



Frank Herbert did it.  And with the current state of affairs in this post 911 world wouldn't using Allah as the antagonist make the story more popular in western cultures?

God gave us the freedom of choice...so choose.

If, for example, you were to write God into your story as a vengeful narcissist could that not be the catalyst to have the  masses flock to their local bookstore for your story?

If you do your research you could easily make any argument you wish...just do your homework and make certain that your portrayal of God is backed up with air tight proof.


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## Rustgold

There's plenty of things in the holy books themselves that can easily be used for a portrayal of 'God' as bad.  Wolfie has shown one way it could be done.  Or if you looked at the Islamist faith, you could find plenty of rape and other things.
Research is your friend on all these things.  Then you can use it for whatever type of story you like.

Btw : There may be plenty of people you'd turn off, but there's also plenty of people who'd love it _(I wouldn't be one of those though)_.


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## NikkiR

I would certainly be interested in reading your piece as it does sound intriguing.
Although not making God a villain. Dan Brown did stir up a lot of controversy with Da Vinci Code by writing about Jesus was man, not the Son of God. Let's put it this way. Any religious story, especially a controversial one, will cause rumblings... but when well written, always end up the most popular ones.


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## beef_razor

Ever heard of the Archons or Gnostic Christianity, look 'em up, it'll give you a pretty good idea of God as a villain. Interesting concept as well, if different.


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## Viktor Greenblood

The problem with using 'God' as a villain is that if you take the monotheistic meaning of the word to mean something with infinite power and absolute knowledge then it becomes literally invincible unless it wants to be defeated.


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## WolfieReveles

Viktor Greenblood said:


> The problem with using 'God' as a villain is that if you take the monotheistic meaning of the word to mean something with infinite power and absolute knowledge then it becomes literally invincible unless it wants to be defeated.



But if you consider the amount of sin, blasphemy, and just general rampant evil in the world, as well as how Lucifer rebellion led to the slaughter of thousands of angels, including God's own faithful followers, you need to accept that he is fallible or wants to be fallible.

Perhaps God is so sick and bored of being omnipotent that he actually limits himself when challenged. Perhaps if a human chooses to take him on, God gives him a fighting chance just for fun?


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## Viktor Greenblood

> Perhaps God is so sick and bored of being omnipotent that he actually  limits himself when challenged. Perhaps if a human chooses to take him  on, God gives him a fighting chance just for fun?



^The thing with that is that with a truly all knowing villain is that there are no fighting chances, there are no chances at all. This creature knows exactly what you will do in any situation before you enter it, if you defeat him then either A) He isn't really omniscient, so there is a hole in his awareness somewhere, or B) He knew you would win, and he allowed you to do so for his own reasons.

There are of course ways to get around this, you just have to have a reason for God to allow itself to be defeated, either that's what it had planned all along or it's just so arrogant it doesn't even trust its own omniscience when it says it will be defeated. After all, you're only supposing it's all knowing, that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't a deeply flawed or disturbed personality.

Or you could make it just very very powerful and knowledgeable rather than all powerful and all knowing.


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## Die Oldhaetunde

God is very boring and one dimensional. This is why the best books are about human experiences. Not about all-potent ones. Having a book where god is the main character is a book that is over the second is starts.


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## nickhasnobeard

I didn't see this posted. Are you a gamer, at all? Try the PC game Black and White.  You get to play as a god, being either a dark god or a good one, ruling your people and battling evil/good by creating avatars and unleashing terrible 3-combo animals (beasts, really i.e. chimera) of your design. It's pretty entertaining and hey, maybe it can give a little insight?


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## Scarlett_156

> Ever heard of the Archons or Gnostic Christianity, look 'em up, it'll give you a pretty good idea of God as a villain. Interesting concept as well, if different.



That's what I was gonna say and, uh... beef_razor beat me to it.  Here's a wikipedia article on the gnostics: Gnosticism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 

Gnosticism expresses multiple levels of divinity like a lot of religions.  The big idea is that the "God" we itty bitty humans know as "the REAL God" is really a bad seed who took over this world & sort of made it his own--or, alternatively was banished to this world or imprisoned in it because it rebelled against the other god-types.  The REAL HONEST-TO-GOD God does not interact with humanity, but went elsewhere long ago; however, it left its REAL HONEST-TO-GOD God "spark" (like God-DNA) in each human, and if the itty-bitty human is good, it gets to rejoin the REAL HONEST-TO-GOD God in the REAL Heaven.  

So the idea of God as a villain is not all that far-fetched.  Someone else mentioned the Book of Job in the Bible, which also shows a somewhat more human-ish, rather callous Creator who makes a bet with the Devil that he can afflict Job, a good, honest, prosperous man, with enough hardship that Job will curse his (God's) name so that he can be released from torment in death. 

The idea of God & the Devil involved in a sort of metaphysical poker game over a man's soul (because even if Job curses God and gets to die, he will be damned to eternal torment) fascinated me as a kid.  It seemed pretty dark for God to want to do something like that to one of his devout followers, right? 

Anyway--there do seem to be some irreconcilable conflicts in the "evil God" scenario when you're talking about a story.  The Gnostics were no slouches at philosophical thought, but even they had to struggle a bit with the paradox which is the keystone of their belief--which is likely why Gnosticism is no longer widely practiced, or even known about.  (You may say it was because they were all hanged or burned at the stake, but that's not really the case.  A lot of them converted to Islam, for example, since Gnosticism's main roots are in the Middle East.)  

Another version of "evil God" actually takes God out of the picture entirely and makes humanity simply the unwitting fodder or slaves of some advanced race of beings, but I am not sure that's what you want. 

So those are my thoughts.  I hope they were of some help!


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## nath881

I think this is a great idea and to be quite frank you have plenty to draw on concerning God being the bad guy. Just use stories from the old testament for inspiration. Here are some examples:

Flooding the earth because human beings weren't worshiping god sufficiently. 

Destroying the twin cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Prescribing lenient punishments towards rape (e.g. a raper was required to marry his victim as punishment towards the rapist).

Advocating hate against women, homosexuals, members of different religions.



These are just a few.

Just to clarify, I am not trying to slander religion in anyway, I understand that most religious people aren't harmful or cruel and most are nice people.


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## anisha_astrologer

WolfieReveles said:


> But if you consider the amount of sin, blasphemy, and just general rampant evil in the world, as well as how Lucifer rebellion led to the slaughter of thousands of angels, including God's own faithful followers, you need to accept that he is fallible or wants to be fallible.
> 
> Perhaps God is so sick and bored of being omnipotent that he actually limits himself when challenged. Perhaps if a human chooses to take him on, God gives him a fighting chance just for fun?




if you read pico della mirandolas " Oration on dignity of man" you will discover that god is powerful but at the same time vulnerable and is hungry for praise. so he created man who would appreciate his creation. in this light gods vengeance or anger is quiet understandable and it can be concluded that he is also fallible and a victim of self-affectation.


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## Scarlett_156

Neither angels nor demons can be "slaughtered".  They are immortal.  Just pointing that out.


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## Niklas

You should read Steven Eriksons Malazan: Book of the Fallen series. If you wish to display God as impure, do so. Screw what people would think, you'll only be offending the conservative christian community with such writings, and possibly less than that. Or, you could go in an indirect way (like Erikson) and write about many gods who are fighting one another for power, people who ascend to godly throne, and other gods who are killed outright by gods and mortals alike. 

But if you wish to contain the image of God and not just any god or goddess, then go for it. Don't worry about offending people. In this day and age, theres not much you can't do without offending one person or another.


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## Nacian

Scarlett_156 said:


> Neither angels nor demons can be "slaughtered".  They are immortal.  Just pointing that out.


but are you not contradicting fiction here..that you can do anyhting in fiction otherwise fiction is useless.

they did in greel mythology where their gods where confined to eternal doom...hades for example, that is deathpersonified is it not, you could not get more death then that?


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## Loopstah

Have a look at the Angel Sanctuary Manga by Kaori Yuki. 
Represents the Judeo/Christian god as more evil than the Old Testament does.


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## Nacian

again if it is FICTION then it has to bear all the marks *of the unatural*.
meaning:

*Fiction either :
*
treats everyone, gods included to *MORTALITY

*in Greek mythology, for example, Hades is confined to his eternal underworld, that is ''death personified'' you could not get more death than this if you tried.
 their gods are mortals in this sense that they are trapped to eternity in imaginable sufferable places or ditions.

OR

everyone is *IMMORTAL* and therefore there is no difference between a god or a human being.

these the two parameters of FICTION.

anyhting in between is Non-Fiction

this is how I see it.


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## WolfieReveles

Scarlett_156 said:


> Neither angels nor demons can be "slaughtered".  They are immortal.  Just pointing that out.



Good point, when sticking to the bible blindly that is true... which kind of makes the whole concept of angels raising arms against each other kind of pointless. You know, even more than your average armed conflict.


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## anisha_astrologer

God can be interpreted in various ways. medieval and ancient texts unknowingly uncovered the vengeful and wrathful side of god whereas modern texts seldom deal with him and those that do show him merciful and kind. if we are not dealing only with the christian god then the greek gods were shown as wrathful definitely. homer's iliad is the living example for it.


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## Writ-with-Hand

I have a paperback book of _Mein Kampf_. I would say a story of God as the villain is as good a literary endeavor as _Mein Kampf_. Especially if given to children to read. This raises the question in my mind why children aren't allowed to purchase pornographic magazines in the United States where urine might be the primary fetish?

But this is my opinion and inquiry. I'm but one person and a flawed one at that. The greater question might be the reverse of "What would Jesus do?" The question then: "What would Lucifer do?"

As a side note: God's goodness can be presented in the "negative path," that being God as blackness, night, and where individuals feel lonely, lost, and in suffering. That's not God as a villain though but God in paths that temper us and hopefully make us stronger in the end.


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## Leyline

Yes, I've heard all that before. 
      But how can a human being win a case against God?
 3 How can anyone argue with him? 
      He can ask a thousand questions 
      that no one could ever answer.[a]
 4 God is so wise and powerful; 
      no one can stand up against him.
 5 Without warning he moves mountains 
      and in anger he destroys them.
 6 God sends earthquakes and shakes the ground; 
      he rocks the pillars that support the earth.
 7 He can keep the sun from rising, 
      and the stars from shining at night.
 8 No one helped God spread out the heavens 
      or trample the sea monster's back.*
 9 God hung the stars in the sky—the Dipper, 
      Orion, the Pleiades, and the stars of the south.
 10 We cannot understand the great things he does, 
      and to his miracles there is no end.

 11 God passes by, but I cannot see him.
 12 He takes what he wants, and no one can stop him; 
      no one dares ask him, 
         What are you doing?
 13 God's anger is constant. He crushed his enemies 
      who helped Rahab,[c] the sea monster, oppose him.
 14 So how can I find words to answer God?
 15 Though I am innocent, all I can do 
      is beg for mercy from God my judge.
 16 Yet even then, if he lets me speak, 
      I can't believe he would listen to me.
 17 He sends storms to batter and bruise me 
      without any reason at all.
 18 He won't let me catch my breath; 
      he has filled my life with bitterness.
 19 Should I try force? Try force on God? 
   Should I take him to court? Could anyone make him go?[d]
 20 I am innocent and faithful, but my words sound guilty, 
      and everything I say seems to condemn me.
 21-22I am innocent, but I no longer care. 
      I am sick of living. Nothing matters; 
      innocent or guilty, God will destroy us.
 23 When an innocent person suddenly dies, 
      God laughs.
 24 God gave the world to the wicked. 
   He made all the judges blind. 
   And if God didn't do it, who did?*


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## Robdemanc

The bible is so open to interpretation you could portray god as a child murderer and be able to back it up.  Just ask Richard Dawkins.


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## shadowwalker

There are a lot of people who see the Biblical God as actually being two separate entities - the Old Testament God (who is jealous and vengeful) and the New Testament God (represented by Jesus and the 'stern but loving father'). I kinda like that myself, since even as a child I didn't like the Old Testament God very much. (And there's a lot you could do with that idea, too.)

As to angels, there have been many many stories/movies about them fighting amongst themselves and opposing God (Lucifer pops to mind). With fiction, as I think others have pointed out, you can pretty much do what you want - as long as you stay consistent. I mean, it's not like the theologians have sat down and interviewed angels to see what their job description or hierarchy actually is...


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