# Just Write.



## Sam

I often wonder why writers get so bogged down in needless over-thinking and generic "Can this be done?" questions. From chapter length, to multiple characters, and everything in between, their queries are often pointless in the grand scheme of things. How can I be so controversial? Because they simply _are_ pointless, to the degree that they don't matter. Yes, you heard me. _They don't matter. _Let me regale you with an anecdote: I had a novel traditionally published (military thriller) at 150,000 words, with six main characters and six point-of-view characters, and a market niche that had ended some ten years previously when novels about the Cold War were usurped by those of the War on Terror. The ceiling for first-time authors is around 100,000 words. Mine was 50,000 more and it was accepted. It had more characters than most publishers appreciate and was accepted. It catered to a niche that was largely non-existent at the time and was accepted. In point of fact, it broke nearly every 'rule' thrown at first-time and aspiring authors and was accepted.

There is _nothing _you 'cannot' do. In fact, the word 'cannot' should be stricken from your vocabulary. The person who says something cannot be done is usually interrupted by the person who's done it. I'm not saying I know for a fact that if you write a story called _Parry Hotter and the Prisoner of Banazka _it will be accepted. What I'm saying is to forget all the questions and just write. When the Internet didn't exist for writers thirty and forty years ago, where do you think they learned their craft? From reading the works of others. From studying the masters and observing how they did it. Asking questions is okay, but when you become so paralysed that you have to ask one for _every _little thing, that's a problem. We can all tell you the answers until the cows come home, but if you have to figure them out for yourself, they'll stay with you for much longer. 

Just write. Everything else will sort itself out along the way. I know this from experience.


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## escorial

inspiring words man.


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## Myers

I think one of my favorite sayings applies: It's better to ask for forgiveness than permission.


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## OurJud

I'm so glad someone started this thread because I was going to do the same, but from a completely different perspective.

I have to admit I'm getting rather tired of this advice to 'Just write', or more specifically when someone says, "You have to write, even when it's the last thing you feel like doing."

Why? Why do I _have_ to write? Forcing yourself to write when it's the last thing you feel like doing seems like a pointless exercise to me. It's frustrating, non-productive and disheartening. The words you write during this session will no doubt be scrapped anyway, because your state of mind at the time means you only wrote garbage.

What's more I think it may actually harm your craving for your story and characters because you'll start to associate it with an unpleasant experience.

I just don't buy this 'Writing, even bad writing, is good' mentality. It's hokum.

I haven't even opened my WiP today, because I didn't feel like it. Do I feel frustrated by that fact? Yes. Do I feel like I've wasted another day? Yes. Do I feel like I've failed? Definitely.

Would I have felt better if I'd forced myself to write? No, I'd have felt worse because it would have been just been further proof that I can't write a novel.


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## Sam

That's called 'fear'. You've brainwashed yourself into believing that you have to suffer and ache for your writing or it's not worth the paper it's written on. _That's _hokum. The more you write, the better you become. That's a simple fact borne out by everyone who has ever put pen to paper. So, yes, bad writing is good. You have to learn how to write badly before you know how to write brilliantly. That's a natural progression that is also true of everything you could wish to turn your hand to. You don't pick up a guitar and play _Freebird _after five minutes. Why do you think writing is any different? There's natural talent, of course, but that only gives you a head-start on the rest of the field. You still have to work to get your writing up to snuff. 

Repetition is the key to becoming proficient at _anything. _​


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## Jon M

_Freebird!!!

_<headbangs>


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## Kyle R

Sam said:
			
		

> Just write. Everything else will sort itself out along the way.



Well said, Sam.

Whenever I'm struggling with my writing, the one cure I can always rely on is, ironically, writing through it. It's amazing how rewarding persistence and dedication can be.

One of my favorite authors, the late Ray Bradbury, said something very similar to aspiring writers whenever he was asked for writing advice:

_"Jump off the cliff and build your wings on the way down."_


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## OurJud

Sam said:


> You've brainwashed yourself into believing that you have to suffer and ache for your writing or it's not worth the paper it's written on. _That's _hokum.
> 
> You have to learn how to write badly before you know how to write brilliantly. ​



I've highlighted the points I'd like to pull you up on here. Firstly, the last thing, the VERY last thing I want to do when writing is suffer and ache. I _do_, but to say that's what I want is ridiculous. Give me an easy route to the finish any day. Offer me the pain-free shortcut and I'll snap your hand off.

And secondly, I already _can_ write badly... I'm very good at it. So by that logic my writing should be a breeze. So why isn't it?


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## FleshEater

OurJud said:


> I'm so glad someone started this thread because I was going to do the same, but from a completely different perspective.
> 
> I have to admit I'm getting rather tired of this advice to 'Just write', or more specifically when someone says, "You have to write, even when it's the last thing you feel like doing."
> 
> Why? Why do I _have_ to write? Forcing yourself to write when it's the last thing you feel like doing seems like a pointless exercise to me. It's frustrating, non-productive and disheartening. The words you write during this session will no doubt be scrapped anyway, because your state of mind at the time means you only wrote garbage.
> 
> What's more I think it may actually harm your craving for your story and characters because you'll start to associate it with an unpleasant experience.
> 
> I just don't buy this 'Writing, even bad writing, is good' mentality. It's hokum.
> 
> I haven't even opened my WiP today, because I didn't feel like it. Do I feel frustrated by that fact? Yes. Do I feel like I've wasted another day? Yes. Do I feel like I've failed? Definitely.
> 
> Would I have felt better if I'd forced myself to write? No, I'd have felt worse because it would have been just been further proof that I can't write a novel.



I agree with Sam's response to this. And I want to highlight one word from Kyle's post. 

Dedication.

The reason you hear this advice, is because it needs to be done to become a better writer. It sucks. No one is saying it doesn't. Every kid hates baseball practice, but loves the games. You can't write a solid novel without dedication. And dedication isn't dragging your feet and writing whenever you want. It's sitting down and working at it.

So you didn't open your WIP. Great. Now, what if you had? What if that writing session that started out like crap turned into a productive thing? 

The next time you don't feel like writing, set a timer and force yourself to write for 30-60 minutes. If you still don't feel like writing, then quit and go clean the house, do laundry, mow the yard, whatever. No one said you always have to work on a 100,000 word novel. Write a piece of flash, a poem, anything!

The point is, is that no one becomes a great writer by a stroke of luck and/or a lack of dedication and hard work. 

Flat out. Writing is hard work. It's always going to be hard work. There is no easy road.


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## OurJud

I don't want to come on strong with the whole, "Ooh woe is me... I'm so misunderstood" pretentious claptrap, but none of you are in my head. You can say, "Oh, but Jud we all find it hard. That's half the fun." But none of you understand my hangups and neuroses.

And what's more, the deeper into the subject I get, the more my ability to write shuts down.

I think I probably have deeper issues that I need to go away and sort out.


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## FleshEater

Yes, you're right, we're not in your head. But you're also not in ours. 

I hate everything I write. But I still do it. Why? Because I know it makes me a better writer. It doesn't make me like my work anymore, but others seem to respond to it more positively. And that's how I know the hours I spend writing are paying off. 

When I don't feel like writing, I come up with a really stupid horror idea and just write it out. It doesn't matter if it gets discarded or not. It's practice. 

There have been millions of artists throughout the ages. We all have our hang ups. If you can't over come them, set them aside, they'll destroy you. 

Maybe you're just not cut out to be a writer. It happens. I wish I could work with wood like a professinal carpenter or work metal like a fabricator, but I can't, because I suck at math.


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## enchantedsecret24

I love this thread Sam! Very well said, and I agree 100,000 percent. I started writing short stories recently (in the midst of working on my first novel), and it has helped me GREATLY. I was stuck on my novel (still might be, but that's okay), but I feel like just writing all of these short stories lately is teaching me a lot about writing. It's teaching me that finally...I have a _style_ of writing. I have a unique _voice,_when before a few weeks ago I had no idea that I did. The first 47,000 words of my novel, I will admit are complete crap. But taking the time away and writing ANYTHING at all, has made me a much better writer. I couldn't have kept going on with my novel that way, or the whole thing would have sucked. I'm okay though with finishing it up now and going back and fixing all the crap later when my first draft is complete. I know I will do a much better job now, and that wouldn't have been possible if I just quit writing because I knew it was bad.

It's true...if you just continue to write, eventually you'll start learning and won't need to ask so many questions. You'll know what's bad, and you'll be able to see it in your own writing as soon as it happens. You'll also learn what's good and what works, and what you definitely need to do more of. I've had so many bad days of writing, and I always just quit before it got too bad. Not anymore, I will write and write until something great happens...and it always does now. Forcing yourself to do it is the only way you will ever get anywhere with writing, not complaining about how crappy your work is. If it's crappy, only you can fix it. You can only fix it by practicing and getting better by...wait for it...WRITING! lol


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## OurJud

FleshEater said:


> Maybe you're just not cut out to be a writer. It happens.



Well in that case God is one sick son of a gun for giving me the desire without the ability.



enchantedsecret24 said:


> ... and I agree 100,000 percent.



There's no such thing. 100% is the maximum.


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## Lewdog

OurJud said:


> Well in that case God is one sick son of a gun for giving me the desire without the ability.



:lol:  You are just now realizing that?  Every day I read stories about idiots who make millions of dollars playing sports who go out and risk losing all their success by doing drugs, killing people, and all sorts of dumb things.  Then I'm forced to sit and wonder why I was giving all the knowledge of the right things to do, on the field and off, but given this five foot nine inch body I got stuck in.  Sucks huh?


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## FleshEater

If you have the desire, it should be enough to drive dedication.


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## J Anfinson

FleshEater said:


> I wish I could work with wood like a professinal carpenter or work metal like a fabricator, but I can't, because I suck at math.



You could learn to weld if you wanted. You don't need to know math. All it takes is tons of practice, and lots of dedication. Sort of like--what was it? Oh yeah...writing!


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## FleshEater

J Anfinson said:


> You could learn to weld if you wanted. You don't need to know math. All it takes is tons of practice, and lots of dedication. Sort of like--what was it? Oh yeah...writing!



Right. But, I'm afraid writing has a stronger desire for me right now.


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## Terry D

Some people want to be writers more than they want to write. They like the idea of having written a book more than the idea of actually writing one. Writing is as much craft as art, maybe more so. Anyone who can write a coherent sentence can learn to write a competent story, or book. Writing isn't the hard part. It takes far less God given talent to write a novel than it does to learn to play a guitar, or paint a landscape. 

Don't misunderstand, I 'm just talking about completeing one. Writing a good one takes a deeper understanding of story and structure, but even those can be developed with practice.


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## FleshEater

As seeing as how I can both play guitar and paint, I'll have to disagree. Writing is on the same level. Many people can play a barre chord, but not a song, and then there are painters like Munch.


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## enchantedsecret24




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## shadowwalker

I agree totally with Sam. People (even old hands at it) get into such esoteric discussions about how to write, or seem to be asking permission to do this or that or the other thing, or worrying about POV and third party of the first part's past tense or pretense, instead of just sitting down and telling their story. That's all it is, people. You're using a pen and paper, or a computer keyboard, or maybe even dictation - but you're just telling a story. I see more potentially excellent writers get so tangled up in minutiae that they can't write a word without questioning it.

OurJud - if you don't open your WIP, how are you going to finish it? I saw the word dedication earlier, and that's basically it. If you don't 'feel' like working on your WIP, don't. But then don't complain because you're not making any progress. To me, that's like writers who complain they've lost their "passion" for their story. Usually it just means they've gotten to the hard part, that part that isn't fun and exciting or isn't just 'words flowing onto the page". A good novel doesn't just happen, and they don't get written only when the author feels like it - they get written because the author does his/her job. Like any job, sometimes it sucks, but you either go to work or find a different job.


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## movieman

Part of it is that people are typically looking at the black box of publishing and trying to determine what gets a book published and what doesn't. Hence the various arcane rules about what you can and can't do.

Yet no-one can really say why one book was published and another wasn't. Even the publishers probably couldn't put into simple words the reasons why they picked one book over another. So we end up as the equivalent of ancient soothsayers reading chicken entrails to predict the actions of the publishing gods.

Fortunately, that's less of an issue now anyone can write what they want, self-publish it and let readers decide whether it's worth reading.


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## Jeko

> I'm so glad someone started this thread because I was going to do the same, but from a completely different perspective.
> 
> I have to admit I'm getting rather tired of this advice to 'Just write', or more specifically when someone says, "You have to write, even when it's the last thing you feel like doing."
> 
> Why? Why do I _have to write? Forcing yourself to write when it's the last thing you feel like doing seems like a pointless exercise to me. It's frustrating, non-productive and disheartening. The words you write during this session will no doubt be scrapped anyway, because your state of mind at the time means you only wrote garbage.
> 
> What's more I think it may actually harm your craving for your story and characters because you'll start to associate it with an unpleasant experience.
> 
> I just don't buy this 'Writing, even bad writing, is good' mentality. It's hokum.
> 
> I haven't even opened my WiP today, because I didn't feel like it. Do I feel frustrated by that fact? Yes. Do I feel like I've wasted another day? Yes. Do I feel like I've failed? Definitely.
> 
> Would I have felt better if I'd forced myself to write? No, I'd have felt worse because it would have been just been further proof that I can't write a novel._



I'm curious, OurJud: in your opinion, how do you 'write'?


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## Myers

In some respects, this seems like a rather heavy-handed overreaction to some of the threads that have been popping up recently. Sometimes, when people are unsure of themselves they ask questions. There’s nothing automatically wrong with that. Those questions can lead to good conversations. I’ve seen that recently too, even if they aren’t particularly enlightening. And there’s nothing wrong with providing a little encouragement from time-to-time, as long as people don’t take advantage of it. And of course, no one is forced to read or participate in any thread.

So should we just ban all threads that ask obvious (according to some), newbie type-questions or other topics that some people deem as pointless or esoteric? Or should people post “just write” at regular intervals? Because that could be really interesting and enlightening too.


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## OurJud

Cadence said:


> I'm curious, OurJud: in your opinion, how do you 'write'?



I'm not sure I understand the question, Cadence.

As I said in a post elsewhere, my real problem isn't so much with the writing itself. I _do_ struggle with that, but I can handle it as well as the next person. What I _can't_ handle is the feeling that what I'm writing isn't necessary. I have a crippling fear that I will write 80,000 words, sit back and suddenly realise I have nothing but a series of random scenes that amount to nothing. I've become totally obsessed by this notion that every scene has to have a purpose and that I don't really _have_ a story anyway.

I feel like I need to know _where_ I'm going and _why_, and that without those things I can't continue. It's driving me mental!

Of course you could just say that the answer is to plan, but I can't even do that.


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## David Gordon Burke

OurJud said:


> I have to admit I'm getting rather tired of this advice to 'Just write', or more specifically when someone says, "You have to write, even when it's the last thing you feel like doing."
> Why? Why do I _have_ to write? Forcing yourself to write when it's the last thing you feel like doing seems like a pointless exercise to me. It's frustrating, non-productive and disheartening. The words you write during this session will no doubt be scrapped anyway, because your state of mind at the time means you only wrote garbage.
> What's more I think it may actually harm your craving for your story and characters because you'll start to associate it with an unpleasant experience.
> 
> I just don't buy this 'Writing, even bad writing, is good' mentality. It's hokum.
> 
> I haven't even opened my WiP today, because I didn't feel like it. Do I feel frustrated by that fact? Yes. Do I feel like I've wasted another day? Yes. Do I feel like I've failed? Definitely.
> 
> Would I have felt better if I'd forced myself to write? No, I'd have felt worse because it would have been just been further proof that I can't write a novel.



I'll meet you half way on this one.  You didn't write.  No problem.  You felt bad that you didn't write.  That's a problem. 
If you DON'T FEEL LIKE WRITING - That's a problem.  Writers feel like writing all the time.  I always want to be doing it but there are times when my story comes to a stand still - I don't know what to do with the narrative to get to the next key junction in the story.  I clean house, take the dog for a walk or cook Tacos and then, my sub-conscious mind gets to work finding a solution to my Narrative problem.  Then I sit down and type it out.
I don't beat myself up over it.  I don't brow beat myself and I don't feel bad because SOMEONE else says I should be writing 10,000 words a day.  
I write at my own pace.  
When I'm not writing, I'm researching or planning the next project.  And the next.  And the next.
Or I'm blogging.  Etc. etc.
I am always writing.  
But I do agree with the bit about not writing when all that is likely to come out is garbage.  Forcing it when you aren't really sure where you want your story to go could be detrimental, you could write yourself into a corner and have to scrap half your novel to get out of it.  

I like Sam's original idea which is "You can do anything"  Why shouldn't that rule apply to how much or how often you write?  I write when I damn well feel like it.  Mathematically, a 90,000 word novel could be written (first draft) in 90 days at 1000 words a day.  That works out to 4 first drafts in a year.  Ok, so let's be reasonable, take into consideration bad days, re-write and edit time.  Even slacking off (which I do a lot of) you can write 2 novels a year.  No?  Ok, One really well thought out novel a year.

I should be able to write another 25 - 50 novels before I shuffle off the mortal coil.  Good enough for me.  (Hell, Thomas Harris who invented Hannibal Lector has only written 5 books so far and I'm sure he has a mansion in Hollyweird)  

Don't sweat it.

David Gordon Burke


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## Jeko

> If you DON'T FEEL LIKE WRITING - That's a problem. Writers feel like writing all the time.



I've heard different from many published, successful authors. I don't feel like writing most of the time, but I make myself do it because it stretches my muscles.



> I'm not sure I understand the question, Cadence.



What I mean is, you seem to have a lot of insight on what not to do, and what you think is bad, and what you think is wrong; so what, in your opinion, is good and right in the craft of writing? 

If the brilliant 'just write' mentality is, in your words, hokum.


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## Bloggsworth

Whoopee, we're back - Shut up an write is my advice.


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## OurJud

David Gordon Burke said:


> I'll meet you half way on this one.  You didn't write.  No problem. [...]



Thanks, David. I can't really argue with much you said in your full post.



			
				Cadence said:
			
		

> What I mean is, you seem to have a lot of insight on what not to do, and  what you think is bad, and what you think is wrong; so what, in your  opinion, is good and right in the craft of writing?
> 
> If the brilliant 'just write' mentality is, in your words, hokum.



Aside from the last post, I don't think I've so far professed to have any insight on what not to do when it comes to writing. All I've done is air my many hangups.

I don't know what is 'good and right in the craft of writing'. If I did, I wouldn't be here moaning about not being able to do it.


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## TheYellowMustang

When I came to this forum I asked a lot of the questions in the category you're talking about - How long should/can my novel be? Can I use quotes from this famous novel as my chapter-names? What does telling vs showing really mean? Can I mention titles of songs and bands?

As a young writer working on my first novel, it wasn't really about the answers. It was about feeling like I had no idea what I was doing, having no confidence, and just needing to ask those silly questions to feel better. You ask "How long should my novel be?" and one person says "As long as it should be" and another person says "Probably not over 100k for a first-time writer", and you feel better. You add it to the tiny and growing list of things you've learned, and it doesn't really matter if you take people's advice or not. You just feel a little more confident. 

And second, you say "Just write". To me, this is kind of like when you watch a movie about a dog who died and you start to cry, and the guy next to you says "How can you cry over a dead dog when there are people starving in Africa?"
Are the two mutually exclusive? Why can't I do both? Why can't I write _and_ ask questions? It's not like I spend so much time asking people about how long my novel should be that I don't have time to write.


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## Sam

Myers said:


> In some respects, this seems like a rather heavy-handed overreaction to some of the threads that have been popping up recently. Sometimes, when people are unsure of themselves they ask questions. There’s nothing automatically wrong with that. Those questions can lead to good conversations. I’ve seen that recently too, even if they aren’t particularly enlightening. And there’s nothing wrong with providing a little encouragement from time-to-time, as long as people don’t take advantage of it. And of course, no one is forced to read or participate in any thread.
> 
> So should we just ban all threads that ask obvious (according to some), newbie type-questions or other topics that some people deem as pointless or esoteric? Or should people post “just write” at regular intervals? Because that could be really interesting and enlightening too.



I don't believe it to be heavy-handed or an overreaction. My original post was certainly not made in any official capacity, and certainly not the culmination of recent threads. It's an observation that I've come to notice over the years. It seems that nobody in this day and age wants to figure things out for themselves. It's so much easier to post a question to a website and get a million-and-one answers rather than do the research. In many ways, that's what the sites are for. I agree, but what I take issue with is that _every _imaginable question is asked. If it's thought of, it's asked. I didn't know anything about writing when I started, but I had to figure it out along the way and without anything to guide me other than the works of published authors. Once in a while, I'd like to see someone come along and say, "I've been researching this for two weeks; have found A, B, and C, but still can't come on a definitive answer for D; can anyone help me?" My maths teacher used to say, "Don't write the answer. Show me how you got to it." Likewise, show me that you haven't run into a problem, logged in to the site, and asked for the solution five minutes later.


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## Jeko

> I don't know what is 'good and right in the craft of writing'. If I did, I wouldn't be here moaning about not being able to do it.



I don't either, yet I'm writing, and I'm not moaning.

My advice for you would be to do what Sam promotes and just write. You said you think its hokum in your post, but the way you repeated what he said shows that you aren't doing it in the first place. A writer needs confidence - if you keep worrying and trying to qualify your work you will stifle your progress. You need to _just _write. Write and don't worry as you write; write and don't worry _after _you write either. Or before. Or in some fourth space of time.


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## Myers

Sam said:


> I don't believe it to be heavy-handed or an overreaction. My original post was certainly not made in any official capacity, and certainly not the culmination of recent threads. It's an observation that I've come to notice over the years. It seems that nobody in this day and age wants to figure things out for themselves. It's so much easier to post a question to a website and get a million-and-one answers rather than do the research. In many ways, that's what the sites are for. I agree, but what I take issue with is that _every _imaginable question is asked. If it's thought of, it's asked. I didn't know anything about writing when I started, but I had to figure it out along the way and without anything to guide me other than the works of published authors. Once in a while, I'd like to see someone come along and say, "I've been researching this for two weeks; have found A, B, and C, but still can't come on a definitive answer for D; can anyone help me?" My maths teacher used to say, "Don't write the answer. Show me how you got to it." Likewise, show me that you haven't run into a problem, logged in to the site, and asked for the solution five minutes later.



There are probably thousands of people out there writing novels. Some tiny fraction of them are here and only a few people here seem to be bogged down in asking questions. You’re talking about a relatively small number of people even if you consider all the other writing sites. So it kind of seems like you might be overstating things to me.

Anyway, I’m glad “just write” worked out for you, and I’m more in that camp. But not everyone learns in the same way. Some people like to learn exclusively by doing. Others benefit when they augment doing with instruction and discussion. And sometimes the smartest thing you can do is ask someone who might know better; you can waste a lot of time working things out by trial and error. Of course, if all that gets in the way of writing and getting things done, it’s a problem.

In the end, people will find their own way. And there is no one method of going about it.

That’s really all I have to add. Now I’m off to heed your advice and "just write."


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## Pluralized

> In the end, people will find their own way.



For sure. I also think it helpful to remember how screwy these times are, and how the internet-smartphone-Googleanything mechanism makes instant gratification super easy. Don't be surprised to see this spill over into the world of newbie writers.


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## OurJud

Cadence said:


> I don't either, yet I'm writing, and I'm not moaning.
> 
> My advice for you would be to do what Sam promotes and just write. You said you think its hokum in your post, but the way you repeated what he said shows that you aren't doing it in the first place. A writer needs confidence - if you keep worrying and trying to qualify your work you will stifle your progress. You need to _just _write. Write and don't worry as you write; write and don't worry _after _you write either. Or before. Or in some fourth space of time.



As hard as it might be to believe, I _do_ try, but it's like I'm battling someone in my head. This person constantly knocks on the inside of my brain and never shuts up long enough for my writing to flow; _"That sentence is terrible. Rewrite it now!"... "No! No! No! Too cliched!"... "Why are these two having this conversation? It's not even relevant!"... "Wait, wait. Should that be a semi-colon or a colon? I forbid you to carry on until you're certain which is the correct one."... "Why the hell are you ending that scene here? It's not even 100 words long, it's not long enough. Add more!"_


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## shadowwalker

I'm still with Sam on this one, mainly because this isn't the only forum where I see these things. Yes, some new writers are genuinely perplexed about the how's and why's, but there's always the search button on forums. And I do see a lot of people, here and elsewhere, who may be internet-savvy but clearly don't want to take the time to do their own research before popping off to the local neighborhood forum to have someone else provide the answers for them. Grammar is a big one. I typically will answer those questions, but I rarely see one that couldn't be answered by a quick Google search (I know because often times I double-check my response that way). Forums are supposed to help people, and I think we do a very good job of that, but they shouldn't be used as crutches either. Researching and thinking about what one finds in that research are two skills writers have to develop at some point if they really want to be successful.


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## Jeko

> This person constantly knocks on the inside of my brain and never shuts up long enough for my writing to flow; _"That sentence is terrible. Rewrite it now!"... "No! No! No! Too cliched!"... "Why are these two having this conversation? It's not even relevant!"... "Wait, wait. Should that be a semi-colon or a colon? I forbid you to carry on until you're certain which is the correct one."... "Why the hell are you ending that scene here? It's not even 100 words long, it's not long enough. Add more!"_



Same here.

My current solution is to actually listen to that voice for once. I think you can either work out how to ignore it or work out how to use it. The other day I didn't put a single word down until I was sure it was the right word. It was slow, but I was very happy with what I wrote.

Don't worry about 'flow' - some liquids flow fast, others flow slow. Neither attribute makes one liquid better than the other - better, for a certain task, maybe, such as meeting a deadline. But you don't have a deadline. So if your writing 'flow' is slow, capitalize on it. Don't try to push it beyond its own limits.


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## luckyscars

Sam said:


> I often wonder why writers get so bogged down in needless over-thinking and generic "Can this be done?" questions. From chapter length, to multiple characters, and everything in between, their queries are often pointless in the grand scheme of things. How can I be so controversial? Because they simply _are_ pointless, to the degree that they don't matter. Yes, you heard me. _They don't matter. _Let me regale you with an anecdote: I had a novel traditionally published (military thriller) at 150,000 words, with six main characters and six point-of-view characters, and a market niche that had ended some ten years previously when novels about the Cold War were usurped by those of the War on Terror. The ceiling for first-time authors is around 100,000 words. Mine was 50,000 more and it was accepted. It had more characters than most publishers appreciate and was accepted. It catered to a niche that was largely non-existent at the time and was accepted. In point of fact, it broke nearly every 'rule' thrown at first-time and aspiring authors and was accepted.
> 
> There is _nothing _you 'cannot' do. In fact, the word 'cannot' should be stricken from your vocabulary. The person who says something cannot be done is usually interrupted by the person who's done it. I'm not saying I know for a fact that if you write a story called _Parry Hotter and the Prisoner of Banazka _it will be accepted. What I'm saying is to forget all the questions and just write. When the Internet didn't exist for writers thirty and forty years ago, where do you think they learned their craft? From reading the works of others. From studying the masters and observing how they did it. Asking questions is okay, but when you become so paralysed that you have to ask one for _every _little thing, that's a problem. We can all tell you the answers until the cows come home, but if you have to figure them out for yourself, they'll stay with you for much longer.
> 
> Just write. Everything else will sort itself out along the way. I know this from experience.



The basic problem is that this is a writing forum, in a subforum called 'writing discussion'. Thus it is very limiting to have an attitude that says 'figure it out yourself' and that dismisses 'can this be done?' questions when, in practice, those kinds of questions form the basis of this kind of forum. If everybody 1) Said they agreed with your view and 2) Actually took it to heart it MIGHT make better writers, but it would make a worse forum because you wouldn't have the discourse. Most of the time what is interesting in a thread is not in the answer to the OP's question, but in the ensuing debate.

For example, immediately below this thread there is one entitled 'What Makes A Good Ending?' Now, I've been reading this forum long enough to know that 1) That is a question that nobody can objectively answer, 2) Has been asked several hundred times before and 3) Has little relevancy because, if the writer has an iota of talent, most endings probably write themselves anyway. So the stated purpose of the thread is basically not that relevant. At least not to somebody like me (Sorry to the guy who started the thread)

But what is interesting is the way a thread like that allows a broadly anarchical deviation into more fertile ground, as it were. While I couldn't care less about the answer to the question, I imagine I would enjoy the insight into what people think. Particularly those with something new to say. That, in my opinion, is the point of this forum. And the reason I mention it is because I feel like, however correct you may be in your basic point, you are not taking that into account.

See my problem with the whole 'shut up and write it' argument is not that I disagree with it. I don't. I've been on this forum for over two years now and have a relatively small number of posts. This is because I don't have endless free time and would rather use what I have to actually 'shut up and write', not spend all of it hanging around a forum pretending to a bunch of strangers that I know everything. I'm not saying that's what people who spend a lot of time on here are necessarily doing, but I think there probably are a few that do (there usually are). But when I see a forum 'supervisor' essentially saying 'there are no answers so just write' my concern is not that it is a wrong statement, but that it threatens the vitality of dialogue which makes this forum at least somewhat better than most others I've seen.

Again, I am not attacking you. This is simple criticism. But you need to look at it from multiple points of view as well. You are wrong when you say 'there is nothing you cannot do'. There are plenty of things any given person cannot do at any given time. At least not well. The thing is to know what is, for now anyway, beyond your abilities and be humble and try to get there. Part of the reason many people write is precisely to be able to do the things they cannot do; Kill people, practice magic, save the world, make sweet love to Jessica Alba, whatever. An essential attraction in writing lies in the aspiration it facilitates. Accordingly, this extends to the writer as well.

There is little we cannot do _ever_ but there is much we cannot do _right now_. This is especially true for beginners. Sure there are always those prodigies, those literary Mozarts who can write a wonderful 200,000 word thriller or epic fantasy with nothing more than a high school education (or less). But, with respect to those people, they are not the primary reason forums like this exist and probably don't benefit from them much. For most of us, the road is long and ugly and it can and does come close to killing us with how difficult it is. Regardless of our talent, most of us cannot write a good novel on our first try. Not even a good short story. Not even a good poem. Not even a good haiku. It takes time and, more than time, it takes resilience and an openness to learning. Part of that learning for most people is to ask questions, many of which may be dumb, may threaten our inherent self esteem, may make us feel like we look stupid in the asking. Yet they seem necessary. So why not ask them here?

Yes, ultimately the answer is to 'just write'. But not everything is about the ultimate answer. Sometimes you _want_ to ask a dumb question even if you dont _need_ to. Sometimes the asking is enough, the answer serving only to provide a sense of acceptance, empathy and even a strange camaraderie. That's pretty much the only reason I ever asked 'those' questions: Because I needed to know I wasn't alone in my struggle. Writing is a lonely endeavor.

So yes: Sometimes you need to ask 'What makes a good ending?' Not because you'll actually get a correct answer, but because you want to see it debated, see the different opinions warring for the tap of a stranger's "like" button, see the way others have done it. Even if it's wrong. Because even if two wrongs don't make a right, a thousand wrongs may get you that little bit closer to figuring it out...


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## Myers

And some people are going to try and take the easy way. That’s not unique to writing. I doubt those people are going to read the OP and have some kind of revelation or even recognize they might have a problem. So no matter how well-intentioned, the OP is basically just a rant, more about preaching to the choir than anything else.

And I agree with a lot of the above and would "like" it if I could.


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## OurJud

shadowwalker said:


> And I do see a lot of people, here and elsewhere, who may be internet-savvy but clearly don't want to take the time to do their own research before popping off to the local neighborhood forum to have someone else provide the answers for them.



I don't agree.

If Sam's problem was with people constantly asking for research help, such as posting stuff like: "My character needs to take a flight from America to Australia - how long would that flight take?" then I could understand it, but relatively speaking the Research section here gets very few posts. Why? because people know they can get the answer elsewhere by themselves and are doing just that. But what is the difference between asking google a question on writing technique, and coming here to ask it? However you do it, the answer will be coming from someone else - more than likely another forum where someone has asked the same question.

This forum is designed to be used exactly as it _is_ being used, and many of the queries people are posting would be too complex and specific to simply type into google anyway.


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## shadowwalker

OurJud said:


> But what is the difference between asking google a question on writing technique, and coming here to ask it? However you do it, the answer will be coming from someone else - more than likely another forum where someone has asked the same question.



The difference is that coming here means people having to take time to answer a question that could have been found on a static site (ie, nobody sitting there waiting to answer questions). Forums shouldn't be used for basic research/information, IMHO - they should be used when one needs clarification of that research, or details that aren't found, or personal experiences/opinions on some matter. For example, one shouldn't come to a forum to ask where to put punctuation in dialogue - one should come to the forum to ask whether one should use the British or American style of punctuation between or outside of the quotes in a specific circumstance (I remember this question being asked here or elsewhere because the writer was British but was going to try for an American publisher). It is, to me, a matter of consideration for forum members. People will get answers to their basic questions, but the fact that they could have found the answers themselves shows a lack of that consideration for the time and efforts of other forum members.


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## OurJud

shadowwalker said:


> [...] - one should come to the forum to ask whether one should use the British or American style of punctuation between or outside of the quotes in a specific circumstance (I remember this question being asked here or elsewhere because the writer was British but was going to try for an American publisher).



So, if we use your opinion on this, why can't that question be answered by google, in the same way you suggest other questions can be answered?

What you and Sam are suggesting is that forums are pretty much pointless. If we used them as you both wished, they would get about three posts per day and probably not be able to justify/fund their existence.


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## Jeko

I believe Sam is advocating that writers should try to work things out for themselves _before _posing it as a question for a bunch of people to answer. And I agree - it builds character. People can't write your story for you - you're in charge of that department. So a writer should try to be self-sufficient where possible and use sites like this for additional help, rather than send an SOS the moment the waters become choppy. It's a matter of confidence, and confidence is a prime element of a productive writer.

And I disagree wholeheartedly with this:



> Most of the time what is interesting in a thread is not in the answer to the OP's question, but in the ensuing debate.


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## shadowwalker

OurJud said:


> So, if we use your opinion on this, why can't that question be answered by google, in the same way you suggest other questions can be answered?
> 
> What you and Sam are suggesting is that forums are pretty much pointless. If we used them as you both wished, they would get about three posts per day and probably not be able to justify/fund their existence.



No, that question could not be answered by Googling because it was not a matter of how to write it, but whether one _should _use one method or the other - ie, needing opinions or experiences. _That _is where forums are important - to get personalized answers to questions created by one's own research.


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## Sam

Cadence said:


> I believe Sam is advocating that writers should try to work things out for themselves _before _posing it as a question for a bunch of people to answer. And I agree - it builds character. People can't write your story for you - you're in charge of that department. So a writer should try to be self-sufficient where possible and use sites like this for additional help, rather than send an SOS the moment the waters become choppy. It's a matter of confidence, and confidence is a prime element of a productive writer.



In a nutshell. 

The point that I'm at the moment belabouring is that some people take the easy way. Do I know how to structure a paragraph, where to put the punctuation within it, and when to take a new one? Yes, I do, because I observed how other writers did it. If that didn't answer it for me, I researched it. I went to the library and borrowed a book on grammar, or I googled "how to use paragraphs" and perused articles until I found what I was looking for. At that juncture I'd have more than likely learned the answer in addition to numerous other tidbits that no one would have thought to mention had I submitted a generic "how do I use paragraphs" question to a forum. If not, _then _I would ask the question.


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## OurJud

This is silly. Why does it matter _HOW_ we get our answers?

It's progress. Research and learning has been made easier because of the internet and forums like this. It's like arguing that we should all be doing our laundry in a river using a washboard, rather than throwing it in an automatic washing machine.


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## Myers

There is _some_ truth to that. But there seems to be a lot of black and white thinking on both "sides' of this, which makes it almost impossible to discuss.


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## Sam

OurJud said:


> This is silly. Why does it matter _HOW_ we get our answers?
> 
> It's progress. Research and learning has been made easier because of the internet and forums like this. It's like arguing that we should all be doing our laundry in a river using a washboard, rather than throwing it in an automatic washing machine.



By that same token, I'm sitting in an exam hall doing an English literature test. I turn to the person beside me and ask, "What's the answer to question one?" The invigilator proceeds to throw me out of the hall despite my protestations of "why does it matter _how _I get my answers?" 

It reeks of laziness. It's a declaration of: "I'm much too important to be doing my own research and study; I'll just ask someone else".


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## OurJud

Sam said:


> It reeks of laziness. It's a declaration of: "I'm much too important to be doing my own research and study; I'll just ask someone else".



So which river is it that you use to wash your laundry?


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## Jeko

> This is silly. Why does it matter _HOW we get our answers?_



That's the most important part! _How _you get them is how you learn them. If you spend your life learning by yelling for help when trouble occurs, you'll eventually be ignored and little will sink in. Work for your answers and you'll learn them better, and beable to use them better and not have to ask again.

This is the entire point of school.


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## Tettsuo

> It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness.



No offense, but this is the impression you're giving me about yourself OJ.

The only way to get it done, is to do the work.


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## FleshEater

Sam, I think you should have titled this thread Just Write, and Do Your Own Research! Ha-ha!

It isn't just Writing Forums that people are lazy on. I post on four wheel drive forums and it's the same thing. Someone will post "What lift should I buy for my Jeep," and then the "beating a dead horse" imogies (spelling?) get posted one right after another. Why? Because those of us that put the time in learning for ourselves are plain tired of handing everything over.

It's like your first car. Have mommy and daddy buy it and it's just a set of wheels. Buy it yourself, and it's not just a set of wheels. It's _your_ car. 

More than half of what's posted in the discussion portion of this forum could be thought out and concluded had the OP just figured it out for themselves. And, if not sure, just write in a way you feel best, post it for critique, and then find out if it doesn't work.


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## shadowwalker

OurJud said:


> It's like arguing that we should all be doing our laundry in a river using a washboard, rather than throwing it in an automatic washing machine.



No, it's more like saying don't ask someone else to do your laundry for you.

We're not saying don't use the internet to do research; that's ridiculous. And we're not saying don't ask questions on the forum. We're saying do your own research _first _and if you _still _can't find the answer, then come and ask. Don't expect this or any other forum to spoon feed you the answers. Why is it so outrageous to expect people to do some work on their own before running here with their questions? Do you really think that's all other members are here for, to answer basic questions over and over? Because that's pretty presumptuous.


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## luckyscars

Cadence said:


> I believe Sam is advocating that writers should try to work things out for themselves _before _posing it as a question for a bunch of people to answer. And I agree - it builds character. People can't write your story for you - you're in charge of that department. So a writer should try to be self-sufficient where possible and use sites like this for additional help, rather than send an SOS the moment the waters become choppy. It's a matter of confidence, and confidence is a prime element of a productive writer.
> 
> And I disagree wholeheartedly with this:



It's interesting that somebody who participates to actively in such debates could say with a straight face they don't find them interesting...

Debates are interesting. At least most of the time. Perhaps you have an incorrect impression of what a debate is. Its a contention, a disagreement, a sharing of views. It's conflict done the only way a conflict should be: Intellectually. If you look back over all of the most important lessons you've learned in your life, I guarantee a huge number originate from debate. Debate matters. If you disagree with that then I feel sorry for you.

Anyhow, I don't know if people quite understand the basic problem here. My point (and, seemingly, agreed with by some others) is NOT that questions which are by all accounts idiotic or thoughtless are not irritating. They are. Most of the time when I come on this forum half of the thread titles (and the titles alone) make me sigh with weariness because they are either done to death or, as Sam mentions, the product of somebody wanting a 'quick fix' to a problem. One which they absolutely could figure out on their own.

But the problem is that it is not anybody's place here to criticize it. The definition of 'a forum' (according to 'Webster) is "a *public *meeting place for *open* discussion" I have bolded the words 'public' and 'open' because they are fundamental to this question. This is not a forum for published writers nor a forum for people who all think learning should be done a certain way. Some people find it completely impossible to learn by trial and error. They need validation at every step. They suffer from a tragic sense that what they do is 'not right'. And you can tell them all day long not to worry about it but it wont matter, because they will. For those people, those posts (and the answers they receive) are important. Others find research difficult. Same basic situation. They cant do it on their own. 

I mean heck, there was that thread just the other week by some guy who wanted to be a writer but DIDNT READ BOOKS. He was by no means the only one I've seen say that, and I dont hang around here all that much. 

So that's the kind of people who use this forum. Whether or not they have any business being in this industry is another argument entirely, but the fact is they are all 'writers' and they clearly get something from that kind of post. And that's OK, because I get something out of their posts too. At the bare minimum I learn about them, where they are in their writing career, a sense of their strugle. Sure, I think a lot of them are insane or deluded, but most of the time it's at least a conversation. And with every conversation comes opinion. With every opinion comes the potential for learning. Even if all you learn by it is that some people are doggone crazy...

So no, I let the dumb questions slide. If I think they're moronic I'll happily explain to the poster why, but I am not going to discourage them from feeling able to ask a question, regardless of my opinion of whether it's a viable topic or not. I think you have to. If you cant then a forum, at least THIS forum, is probably not for you.


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## Bilston Blue

On the researching matter, I use the internet to research many, many things. Examples: a story I'm working on has a secondary character who suffers from Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. I know a little of it but not enough, so I googled the condition to find out more about it and the treatments available and the effects of the condition. I also needed to know about famous/well known people who came from a particular town, in order to name a fictitious hospital wing, so again I googled it. The internet is perfect for research. Some stuff needs to be verified, naturally, you shouldn't take everything you see out there as gospel, but I don't understand how such laziness can occur. Internet research isn't even hard or too time consuming.

In future, I recommend this site as a sarcastic but useful riposte to those asking questions which suggest a degree of laziness:
http://lmgtfy.com/


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## Lewdog

I'm not lazy, I'm just motivation deprived.


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## Leyline

OK, first off, let me say that Dan and I have known each other for years, respect each other and like each other.

But 'Just write' is easily the laziest friggin' advice any writer can give another writer.

Is it true? Sure. But so is 'Shut up.' 

Why is there a 'Writing Discussion' forum here if not to discuss writing? Why is a question like 'What makes a good ending?' considered lazy when no honest writer can actually ANSWER that question?

What is wrong, or lazy, about that discussion? It will exist forever. No getting around that. That's what discussing writing is about.

Why is placing an exercise from dude who wrote FIGHT CLUB seen as valid, yet a question about endings is not?

Any question here that invokes discussion is valid. Members are discussing it, therefore it's discussion!

Seriously not getting the problem here, guys.


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## Leyline

*double post*


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## enchantedsecret24

I don't see why anyone would get offended by people on here asking questions. Honestly, I feel like there are people here...wait no, I KNOW that there are many people here who know so much more than I do. I see this place as a great opportunity to learn about things that I don't understand or know anything at all about. If I or anyone else is asking questions on here it's because we trust your opinions and advice. So, why does that offend you? Shouldn't you feel proud or at least a little happy that some of us look up to some of you? I try not to ask questions on here often, but I always just assumed that no matter how stupid or little the question was that people wanted to help out fellow writers.

I mean in school you don't really just learn all on your own, there is a teacher...who teaches you. If you have questions they could be researched and I'm sure you could easily look in your textbook, but most people ask their instructor anyways. If I don't know something, I would MUCH rather ask one of you guys who know what you're talking about then do a google search and not know for sure if I'm finding the right information. I'm pretty sure that's how anyone else feels too, and I don't think that's a bad thing at all. We should all be supportive of each other and WANT to help out when we can.


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## Sam

When you go to college and start doing a degree in a chosen subject, do you think your teachers help you? They most certainly do not. _You _do your own research, you structure your own essays, and you find out by yourself the answer to the questions they've posed. If you don't meet a deadline for a paper, you get a zero. No excuses, no sob stories, just a big zero on the cover sheet. 

The first thing a college or university lecturer will tell you when you start a degree is this: "The onus is on you to figure out how to do everything. The days of hand-holding are over." There is no meeting the lecturer for a quick chinwag after class. There is no submitting rough drafts and inquiring, "Am I on the right track?" They don't know you from a hole in the wall and they don't care to. It is in many ways designed to reflect the real world. Everything you need can be found in various articles and journals in the library. It's up to you to track them down, source them properly, and return them on time. The message is abundantly clear: Welcome to the real world. That's why freshman drop-out rates are atop the list across the board. It's a wake-up call that many people can't handle. 

So, no, I'm not offended by people asking questions. What I'm perplexed by is that some people think asking questions is enough to stand as research.


----------



## Sam

Leyline said:


> OK, first off, let me say that Dan and I have known each other for years, respect each other and like each other.
> 
> But 'Just write' is easily the laziest friggin' advice any writer can give another writer.
> 
> Is it true? Sure. But so is 'Shut up.'
> 
> Why is there a 'Writing Discussion' forum here if not to discuss writing? Why is a question like 'What makes a good ending?' considered lazy when no honest writer can actually ANSWER that question?
> 
> What is wrong, or lazy, about that discussion? It will exist forever. No getting around that. That's what discussing writing is about.
> 
> Why is placing an exercise from dude who wrote FIGHT CLUB seen as valid, yet a question about endings is not?
> 
> Any question here that invokes discussion is valid. Members are discussing it, therefore it's discussion!
> 
> Seriously not getting the problem here, guys.



In retrospect, the title should have been something different. It wasn't intended as advice but rather to spark a discussion of why some writers ask dozens and possibly hundreds of generic questions that don't have any definitive answers. For me, there's a level of fear and paralysis there. "How many words per chapter?" "How many characters can I have?" "Is this allowed?" I don't imagine that Joyce and Hemingway and Dickens turned to their contemporaries and asked, "Do you think this idea will work?" They figured it out for themselves and were, in my opinion, much the better for it. 

But that's just my opinion. I'm not saying that anyone should take it completely to heart. What I'm saying is that I believe if they threw off the shackles and allowed themselves to make mistakes, to figure things on their own, there wouldn't be any fear left. If they convinced themselves to discard the crippling mentality of "this has to be perfect" and allowed for sub-par writing on the first draft(s), they wouldn't be paralysed by the prospect of writing 100,000 words. When you start from a negative place, with doubt and self-loathing thrown into the mix, how can you ever expect to get to a positive one? 

That's what I meant by 'just write'.


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## luckyscars

Sam said:


> When you go to college and start doing a degree in a  chosen subject, do you think your teachers help you? They most certainly  do not. _You _do your own research, you structure your own  essays, and you find out by yourself the answer to the questions they've  posed. If you don't meet a deadline for a paper, you get a zero. No  excuses, no sob stories, just a big zero on the cover sheet.
> 
> The first thing a college or university lecturer will tell you when you  start a degree is this: "The onus is on you to figure out how to do  everything. The days of hand-holding are over." There is no meeting the  lecturer for a quick chinwag after class. There is no submitting rough  drafts and inquiring, "Am I on the right track?" They don't know you  from a hole in the wall and they don't care to. It is in many ways  designed to reflect the real world. Everything you need can be found in  various articles and journals in the library. It's up to you to track  them down, source them properly, and return them on time. The message is  abundantly clear: Welcome to the real world. That's why freshman  drop-out rates are atop the list across the board. It's a wake-up call  that many people can't handle.
> 
> So, no, I'm not offended by people asking questions. What I'm perplexed  by is that some people think asking questions is enough to stand as  research.



You keep talking about exams and degrees as though its in any way comparable to what is being discussed. 

The  analogy of asking the person next to you for the right answer is  fundamentally flawed. There IS no such thing as a right answer in  writing. There is no right or wrong at all, beyond the basic rules of  grammar and spelling (and even then you could argue it). There is no  zero. There is no hundred. There is nothing to writing but a man (or  woman) and the goal they set for themselves. This is why even though I  may yawn (very loudly) when I see threads about endings, or the  thousandth thread about how long a chapter length should be, I  understand the place where such questions come from because I was once  somewhere similar (though without the forum). Maybe even you were too.

So  with some irony it follows, and I'm sorry to say it but, that in terms  of pure banality and overall pointlessness this thread ranks way up  there. I know it wasnt your intention, that you were just giving your  view (which, remember, I agree with), but your attempt to preach the  'just write' doctrine on a forum falls on mostly deaf ears. Most  seasoned writers didn't need to be told and most novice writers won't  listen because they're too busy fretting over whether their villain  should be named 'Titus' or 'Marmalade'.

 I'm not going to get  into wondering why it even bothered you in the first place, because  frankly I don't care. And even if I did, it is beyond me how somebody  can stand to moderate a writing forum when clearly they don't advocate  it being used as a primary resource for members who are new writers.


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## Gavrushka

I'd never appreciated there were writers that isolated themselves from the input of others and 'just wrote'.  There again, forgive me my naivety, but I've only been writing a short time compared to many. - I'd assumed that almost all of us discussed aspects of our works with our colleagues, family and friends...

...Or posted on writing forums such as this.

I think when people are asking questions that some consider should not be asked, it is a way other members of this community engage in it. Perhaps they wish to compare notes with how others approach particular aspect of writing. Asking here is interactive, whereas Google is more the statements of others that cannot be prodded and poked in order to get a fuller understanding of their meaning.

I don't think there is a Joyce, Hemingway or Dickens amongst us, but perhaps we can take a step closer to them by shedding a little bit of light into the dark corners of our ignorance by way of interaction with our peers.


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## Sam

luckyscars said:


> You keep talking about exams and degrees as though its in any way comparable to what is being discussed.
> 
> The  analogy of asking the person next to you for the right answer is  fundamentally flawed. There IS no such thing as a right answer in  writing. There is no right or wrong at all, beyond the basic rules of  grammar and spelling (and even then you could argue it). There is no  zero. There is no hundred. There is nothing to writing but a man (or  woman) and the goal they set for themselves. This is why even though I  may yawn (very loudly) when I see threads about endings, or the  thousandth thread about how long a chapter length should be, I  understand the place where such questions come from because I was once  somewhere similar (though without the forum). Maybe even you were too.
> 
> So  with some irony it follows, and I'm sorry to say it but, that in terms  of pure banality and overall pointlessness this thread ranks way up  there. I know it wasnt your intention, that you were just giving your  view (which, remember, I agree with), but your attempt to preach the  'just write' doctrine on a forum falls on mostly deaf ears. Most  seasoned writers didn't need to be told and most novice writers won't  listen because they're too busy fretting over whether their villain  should be named 'Titus' or 'Marmalade'.
> 
> I'm not going to get  into wondering why it even bothered you in the first place, because  frankly I don't care. And even if I did, it is beyond me how somebody  can stand to moderate a writing forum when clearly they don't advocate  it being used as a primary resource for members who are new writers.



If I had posted this as an Administrator, your argument might have weight. I didn't. I created this thread as a member. I am capable of separating the two, in case you had any misconceptions otherwise. I fully endorse the discussion boards and have found them useful in the past. My gripe is not with asking questions. I don't know how many times I have to say that before it sinks it. My gripe is with people who won't figure out things for themselves. That isn't limited to writing but every facet of life. By all means avail of the discussion boards. They're there for that purpose. But at some point you have to bite the bullet and get on with it. The real world doesn't wait for anyone, employers don't allow you to work when you feel like it, and everyone expects you to possess a degree of common sense in order to figure out how to solve problems. Writing is no different. I'm sorry if that bursts anyone's bubble, but that's reality. Either stop feeling sorry for yourself and figure it out, or give up entirely. Those are your choices. Everything else is white noise. 

I'm done with this thread now. My intention was to start a valid discussion, but so many people take things way too personally as though they were an affront to them. To those people, I say "grow up and stop feeling like the world owes you something".


----------



## Jeko

> It's interesting that somebody who participates to actively in such debates could say with a straight face they don't find them interesting... {etc}



I'll be honest, luckyscars; I can't find polite enough words to respond to your post.

I'll say this: I'm not sure I gave the staff proper gratification for getting rid of the debate forum. I am _eternally _grateful that it is gone; ever since it went I started using this forum properly. If your attitude is that threads are better when they are turned into debates, then...

Yep, I don't have the words. 


I'm with Sam that some people are missing the point; it's not the threads, it's the people. His advice is for those people, sparked by the presence of the threads he mentions.


----------



## Bilston Blue

Cadence said:


> I'll be honest, luckyscars; I can't find polite enough words to respond to your post.
> 
> I'll say this: I'm not sure I gave the staff proper gratification for getting rid of the debate forum. I am _eternally _grateful that it is gone; ever since it went I started using this forum properly. If your attitude is that threads are better when they are turned into debates, then...
> 
> Yep, I don't have the words.
> 
> 
> I'm with Sam that some people are missing the point; it's not the threads, it's the people. His advice is for those people, sparked by the presence of the threads he mentions.



Can we have the "like" button back, please?


----------



## Kevin

Bilston Blue said:


> Can we have the "like" button back, please?


 I'm still reeling from the fact that I can put 'negative reputation' on people...anonymously if I want...


----------



## Gavrushka

It seems I came too late to this thread, which is a shame as I'd my notebook to hand and was ready to learn something. - If people are making controversial statements causing distress for others, isn't it better to just not engage them, and carry on for the benefit of those who wish to interact for the purposes of learning rather than preaching?

I can't imagine writing without interacting with others, as I don't think I am 'complete' enough in isolation to do so with just research. Sometimes a thought grasps me, and I'd want to discuss it - yes, such as how do you juggle a half dozen protagonists, and I'd be a little peeved if I thought there was a category of topics that were frowned upon. (In this example I know how I would handle six protagonists, but wanted the input of how others would, in the hope of improving my technique.)

I'd hope those that wish to contribute and debate, such as Sam, would remain. - I tend to learn far more from people I initially disagree with, than those I do.


----------



## Tettsuo

Leyline said:


> But 'Just write' is easily the laziest friggin' advice any writer can give another writer.


I disagree.  "Just Write" is the correct advice for someone who wants to write.  No matter how much you talk about playing basketball, research it and study film of the sport, you'll never actually understand and improve your game until you actually play.  The same goes for writing.  You can talk about it, ask question and research until you're blue in the face, but you'll never get better at writing until you actually sit down and write.

My first attempt at a novel was terrible.  Absolute, 100% crap.  But, I needed to do that to learn from it.  To see what works and what doesn't.  I couldn't do that without bumbling along with the those initial scribblings and realizing that it's not working and why.

My very next attempt became my first novel.

Just Write.


----------



## Myers

The "write" part is painfully obvious. It's the "just" part that seems to be tripping people up. There are things you can do to augment and accelerate your learning. Discussing things with like-minded people can be one of them. It's not an either/or proposition.


----------



## Tettsuo

Myers said:


> The "write" part is painfully obvious. It's the "just" part that seems to be tripping people up. There are things you can do to augment and accelerate your learning. Discussing things with like-minded people can be one of them. It's not an either/or proposition.


But I'm sure you'll agree that after all the chatter is done, each of us will have to sit our behinds down and pour out our ideas using words and structured in the ways we communication that's unique to each one of us.  Talking is not enough, debate is not enough, it's the act of doing that moves us closer to learning how to best convey our ideas with the written word.


----------



## Myers

Of course I'll agree. As I said, that part is obvious and it really should go without saying.


----------



## shadowwalker

I can only repeat what Sam said earlier and to which I've already alluded - too many writers are so afraid of doing things wrong, they do nothing at all. As to those who seem to think people are saying "Don't ask questions!" here, please re-read. 

Note: I have seen, many times, where people have been shouted down or dismissed in public forums for asking 'obvious' questions. Forums allow those questions to be asked, yes. Fortunately or unfortunately, it also allows them to be ridiculed or the questioner chastised.


----------



## luckyscars

Cadence said:


> I'll be honest, luckyscars; I can't find polite enough words to respond to your post.
> 
> I'll say this: I'm not sure I gave the staff proper gratification for getting rid of the debate forum. I am _eternally _grateful  that it is gone; ever since it went I started using this forum  properly. If your attitude is that threads are better when they are  turned into debates, then...
> 
> Yep, I don't have the words.
> 
> 
> I'm with Sam that some people are missing the point; it's not the  threads, it's the people. His advice is for those people, sparked by the  presence of the threads he mentions.



LOL. What on _earth_ does the Debate Forum have to do with anything?

I  am also glad that forum went. The little I saw of it it was essentially  a version of youtube without the videos (so without any redeeming  features): Ninety nine percent just people wasting their time arguing  over the existence of God, the evils of Obamacare, and how evil America  is - occasionally all three at the same time. That has nothing, read  again, _nothing _to do with what I mean by debate.

Do you  know what a debate is? It's a discussion. It's what we're doing right  now. And, newsflash, it's what exists on very nearly every single thread in this  part of the forum. Heck, it's why most people come to forums. If you are  seriously saying you don't like debating _anything_ then perhaps  you should quit commenting on threads? Or, at least, quit commenting  with any opinion whatsoever. Just tell everybody (so, not just Sam) that  you agree with them and quit disagreeing. People in glass houses,  etc....Or why not just make a new forum rule? Every thread consists of  no more than one post. Wouldn't that be great? Oh, wait...

A debate is a discussion, sir. It's how we learn things. If you don't like that then..... Oh, looks like I too don't have words.



> If I had posted this as an Administrator, your argument might have  weight. I didn't. I created this thread as a member. I am capable of  separating the two, in case you had any misconceptions otherwise.  I  fully endorse the discussion boards and have found them useful in the  past. My gripe is not with asking questions. I don't know how many times  I have to say that before it sinks it. My gripe is with people who  won't figure out things for themselves. That isn't limited to writing  but every facet of life. By all means avail of the discussion boards.  They're there for that purpose. But at some point you have to bite the  bullet and get on with it. The real world doesn't wait for anyone,  employers don't allow you to work when you feel like it, and everyone  expects you to possess a degree of common sense in order to figure out  how to solve problems. Writing is no different. I'm sorry if that bursts  anyone's bubble, but that's reality. Either stop feeling sorry for  yourself and figure it out, or give up entirely. Those are your choices.  Everything else is white noise.
> 
> I'm done with this thread now. My intention was to start a valid  discussion, but so many people take things way too personally as though  they were an affront to them. To those people, I say "grow up and stop  feeling like the world owes you something".



Not sure what you're referring to here exactly. It sounds like hubris to me. 

I  don't see many threads on here that say "the world owes me something"  or "feel sorry for me" or who "wont figure things out for themselves".  To go back to the original premise, for the most part all I see when I  read *those threads* by *those people* is a group of very green, very  naive wannabe writers who desperately want to make it but are unable to.  Perhaps its because they lack the talent, perhaps the discipline,  perhaps the heart. 

In any case, I'll say it again, I think you  are wholly out of line to make those kinds of judgements of people whose  motives and character you don't really know and who are using the forum  for what it is actually designed for. Sorry. This is a public forum  designed for ALL members to post questions about writing and comment on  those of others. Accordingly, those questions should be received with  some modicum of decorum and, dare I say it, empathy. Now, obviously this  is problematic when the writer is evidently and obviously not 'getting  it'. And I say again, I agree with you that the answer is to write.  However, there are other things to be taken into account.

How do  YOU know, for instance, that somebody who posts a dumb thread about, oh I  dont know, whether to set their novel in Italy or Hungary, or whether  their MC should be called 'Virgil Black' or 'Fudge Fluffet' hasn't "bit  the bullet"? Maybe they've been chewing it over for weeks. Maybe it's a  question that they absolutely cannot figure out the answer to on their  own. Sure, the chances are otherwise, but again: It isn't your call. The  correct thing to do is to either answer the question respectfully or  leave it alone. Moreover, the correct thing to do is absolutely NOT then  start a whole new post about how "people dont figure things out for  themselves".  Not least because, again, you dont actually help anybody  by saying that. People who know it might slap you on the back and say "I  agree with Sam", but the people for whom that kind of advice is  actually relevant are almost across the board going to ignore it.  Telling a new writer to "just write" is like going into a kindergarten  class and telling a bunch of six year olds to "just read", "just make  friends" or "just eat your vegetables".

I am studying to work in  education. As part of it, I am required to take a mountain of psychology  classes. Why? Because in order to understand how to help people get  better you have to be able to assess the way they think. Of course, in  the context of a forum, such understanding is hard, but it doesnt take a  Sigmund Freud to know pointless lectures about how you can do it _if you would only try _are  mostly ineffective. Most people don't ask questions first because they  need an answer, they ask because they know the answer but want  validation. You cannot talk somebody out of needing that validation. The  only choice is to ignore them or answer the question. It's really that  simple.


----------



## Gavrushka

shadowwalker said:


> I can only repeat what Sam said earlier and to which I've already alluded - too many writers are so afraid of doing things wrong, they do nothing at all. As to those who seem to think people are saying "Don't ask questions!" here, please re-read.
> 
> Note: I have seen, many times, where people have been shouted down or dismissed in public forums for asking 'obvious' questions. Forums allow those questions to be asked, yes. Fortunately or unfortunately, it also allows them to be ridiculed or the questioner chastised.



I don't mind public ridicule, and will self-flagellate if I've started a discussion that turns out to be foolish, but likewise there are no intellectual or age requirements (within reason) to write, so it is entirely possible that what is common sense to some, may be new territory for others.

I rejoice in getting something wrong, as long as I uncover my mistake. It's just a fact of life that we learn far more from our oopses than our triumphs.

And I'd agree that 'Just Right' is the singular most important piece of advice that can be given to anyone who wishes to write, but by no means the only piece. - I've a thousand questions shuffling around in my head, but I find the best way to form them into something coherent is to write in the first instance.


----------



## OurJud

Gavrushka said:


> I rejoice in getting something wrong, as long as I uncover my mistake. It's just a fact of life that we learn far more from our oopses than our triumphs.



You spelt 'write' incorrectly in your last paragraph. Rejoice!


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## Gavrushka

LOL! Thank you! - Party time.


----------



## Alabastrine

OurJud said:


> You spelt 'write' incorrectly in your last paragraph. Rejoice!



Where the crap is the "like" button?? There used to be one right?

Anyways, I like that comment. It made me snicker.

hmmm...snickers....now I am hungry.


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## blazeofglory

The Mantra is persistence and write tirelessly and vigorously. All one neds is passion and if one has not it one cannot,keep on writing. Writing must not be work. One can keep on dancing, singing, swiming but not working if there is no music in the work. Write, write and write if you have the drive or else you will get exhausted. 

Writing must be fun or else no writing. Hunger makes the food tasty so does the passion when it comes to writing.


----------



## shadowwalker

blazeofglory said:


> Writing must be a fun or else no writing. Hunger makes the food tasty so does the passion when it comes to writing.



I would add the caveat that writing should be fun *overall*. Those who depend on 'passion' and 'fun' will never make it through the sweat and blood parts needed to finish.


----------



## Jeko

> Writing must be a fun or else no writing



In danger of derailing the thread, but I disagree. For certain goals, maybe. But learning how to write doesn't have to be fun, and doing all your writing to get better at it is an option available to all writers. When I do an exercise sometimes it's fun, sometimes it's not. Doesn't matter to me.

Writing a story that you want people to read? You need to have some sense of enjoyment, yes, else it will affect the prose. But as Shadowwalker said, don't depend on it.

Hmm.. this topic could make a good thread. Not sure if it's been done recently though. Thinking about it, there's quite a lot to discuss.

edit: Writing must not be work? Writing is always work. If it's _just _work then there should be a reason for that (as I outlined), but it will always be defined as a form of work. I think you're talking more about storytelling, as opposed to general 'writing'.


----------



## Terry D

"All writers are vain, selfish and lazy, and at the very bottom of their motives lies a mystery. Writing a book is a long, exhausting struggle, like a long bout of some painful illness. One would never undertake such a thing if one were not driven by some demon whom one can neither resist nor understand."
George Orwell

[SIZE=+1]"Writing is the flip side of sex [/SIZE][FONT=Times New Roman,Times][SIZE=+1]–[/SIZE][/FONT][SIZE=+1] it's good only when it's over."
Hunter S. Thompson

[/SIZE][FONT=Times New Roman,Times][SIZE=+1]"Writing is the hardest work in the world. I have been a bricklayer and a truck driver, and I tell you – as if you haven't been told a million times already – that writing is harder.  Lonelier. And nobler and more enriching."[/SIZE][/FONT] 
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times][SIZE=+1]Harlan Ellison

[/SIZE][/FONT]"Coleridge was a drug addict. Poe was an alcoholic. Marlowe was killed by a man whom he was treacherously trying to stab. Pope took money to keep a woman's name out of a satire then wrote a piece so that she could still be recognized anyhow. Chatterton killed himself. Byron was accused of incest. Do you still want to a writer - and if so, why?"
Bennett Cerf

Not much "fun" there.


----------



## blazeofglory

Cadence said:


> In danger of derailing the thread, but I disagree. For certain goals, maybe. But learning how to write doesn't have to be fun, and doing all your writing to get better at it is an option available to all writers. When I do an exercise sometimes it's fun, sometimes it's not. Doesn't matter to me.
> 
> Writing a story that you want people to read? You need to have some sense of enjoyment, yes, else it will affect the prose. But as Shadowwalker said, don't depend on it.
> 
> Hmm.. this topic could make a good thread. Not sure if it's been done recently though. Thinking about it, there's quite a lot to discuss.
> 
> edit: Writing must not be work? Writing is always work. If it's _just _work then there should be a reason for that (as I outlined), but it will always be defined as a form of work. I think you're talking more about storytelling, as opposed to general 'writing'.



you are right. That was my opinion. All I mean to say is if writing is fun or if the work of writing engages us we can enjoy writing and the concentration level will be high or else writing will tire us out in a while. A dancer can dance for hours though her limbs weaken, to a certain cadence and tune or else or if there is no tune and rhythm she cannot persist. Writing is work, I agree but this should not be the kind of routine work since people if given the choice does not want to work if the work is uninteresting.


Writing demands total concentration or presence or else it does not prove good. I often choose total freedom or seclusion when I sit for writing or else if I do this job the way it is done the way official memorandums or  letters are written it cannot drive the reader. 

Let writing flow naturally, unperturbed in its natural course.


----------



## blazeofglory

Terry D said:


> "All writers are vain, selfish and lazy, and at the very bottom of their motives lies a mystery. Writing a book is a long, exhausting struggle, like a long bout of some painful illness. One would never undertake such a thing if one were not driven by some demon whom one can neither resist nor understand."
> George Orwell
> 
> [SIZE=+1]"Writing is the flip side of sex [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]–[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] it's good only when it's over."
> Hunter S. Thompson
> 
> [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]"Writing is the hardest work in the world. I have been a bricklayer and a truck driver, and I tell you – as if you haven't been told a million times already – that writing is harder.  Lonelier. And nobler and more enriching."[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=+1]Harlan Ellison
> 
> [/SIZE]"Coleridge was a drug addict. Poe was an alcoholic. Marlowe was killed by a man whom he was treacherously trying to stab. Pope took money to keep a woman's name out of a satire then wrote a piece so that she could still be recognized anyhow. Chatterton killed himself. Byron was accused of incest. Do you still want to a writer - and if so, why?"
> Bennett Cerf
> 
> Not much "fun" there.



These are interesting quotes. Writing is indeed arcane, esoteric and the job of writing keeps one mostly detached and desolated away from a company of people and that is why they are mysterious beings. Writers of great authority and prominence are often egocentric and people look askance at them since they sound and appear otherworldly or extraordinaire. 

Writers when they  remote themselves from the usual and since they have to present their idiosyncrasy to stand out from the rest. They write,if not always out of their motive to be unique, singular and universal. They transcend borders and write for all though language and culture constrict their move at times. Their study of scale and quality puts them on highs though isolated more often. The biggest problem with most writers is they often find the world unadjustable to their taste and move. 

That said, however, writers enjoy higher emotions and more enriching experiences uncommon with the majority.


----------



## Lewdog

blazeofglory said:


> These are interesting quotes. Writing is indeed arcane, esoteric and the job of writing keeps one mostly detached and desolated away from a company of people and that is why they are mysterious beings. Writers of great authority and prominence are often egocentric and people look askance at them since they sound and appear otherworldly or extraordinaire.
> 
> Writers when they  remote themselves from the usual and since they have to present their idiosyncrasy to stand out from the rest. They write,if not always out of their motive to be unique, singular and universal. They transcend borders and write for all though language and culture constrict their move at times. Their study of scale and quality puts them on highs though isolated more often. The biggest problem with most writers is they often find the world unadjustable to their taste and move.
> 
> That said, however, writers enjoy higher emotions and more enriching experiences uncommon with the majority.



I think that is just it, there is never going to be a re-invention of the wheel, and writing is always going to have some distinct features that are never going to change.  Sure there might be a fad from time to time that become the flavor of the month, but everything always comes back down to the basics of writing.  There is an introduction, the trigger, the build, the climax, and a resolution.


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## Terry D

blazeofglory said:


> That said, however, writers enjoy higher emotions and more enriching experiences uncommon with the majority.



Some writers may fit this description, but so do some taxi drivers, some football players, and some factory workers. Writers are just people. No more special or unique than any others.

The point of the quotes I posted was simply to show that writing doesn't have to be fun to be good, or even great. Sometimes it is drudgery; other times it is like a colonoscopy. Sometimes it is even fun.


----------



## BryanJ62

Sam - You made my day (evening to be exact). Thank You!


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## Umbra

I agree with OP, sometimes i dont feel like writing the whole day but i force myself to start. After a while i just cannot stop because im in the story now and it has to be told. Just force yourself to write those few first sentences and the rest will flow


----------



## OurJud

Umbra said:


> Just force yourself to write those few first sentences and the rest will flow



Not a bad philosophy, but alas this isn't always true - at least not for everyone.

I spent three hours yesterday battling through about 100 words and I couldn't wait to put that final full stop in and come away. What's more, I wasn't particularly satisfied with those 100 words.


----------



## Umbra

OurJud said:


> Not a bad philosophy, but alas this isn't always true - at least not for everyone.
> 
> I spent three hours yesterday battling through about 100 words and I couldn't wait to put that final full stop in and come away. What's more, I wasn't particularly satisfied with those 100 words.



My advice is: Take a stroll, smoke, drink or whatever to get your mind off it for a while. I guess i could say that some of the best plot breaktroughs i had were in the tram, or on my way to college, even in the shower or while trying to sleep. There are some days when it just wont happen, I try not to beat myself up about it


----------



## Robert_S

I'm not one of those "Just Write" people. That may be fine for exercises in writing, but when you set down to do something serious, you need to get serious. I like to have a blueprint, which is why I spend so much time outlining and detailing the elements I want to present. Eventually, it begins to write itself as you work more detail in.

I think if you go in with maybe a character and perhaps a central conflict and nothing else, your chance of getting something done is very slim. Some people have even less (maybe a genre and/or a theme) and they get stuck because they have only a terrain and no map. Your chance of finding your way out before dying is slim.


----------



## Sam

You think people who don't outline aren't serious? I've never written an outline in my life and I've penned a dozen novels. So, please, don't generalise the process. I am very serious about my writing. Outlining doesn't work for me, and that fact hasn't hindered me in the slightest. Different strokes and all that.


----------



## Robert_S

Your advice that "your problems will solve themselves if you just write" sounds like a generalization to me. It doesn't state, find what works for you, just "just write."


----------



## Gavrushka

Sam said:


> You think people who don't outline aren't serious? I've never written an outline in my life and I've penned a dozen novels. So, please, don't generalise the process. I am very serious about my writing. Outlining doesn't work for me, and that fact hasn't hindered me in the slightest. Different strokes and all that.



+1

For me, writing is spontaneous. The whole idea of 'planning creativity' would feel paradoxical.

The other benefit of that is that I am as surprised by the ending of my story as any other reader.


----------



## Terry D

Robert_S said:


> Your advice that "your problems will solve themselves if you just write" sounds like a generalization to me. It doesn't state, find what works for you, just "just write."



If you are outlining, and planning your work, that can be considered part of the writing process_ if_ it advances the progress of the work rather than providing camouflage for procrastination as many of the questions referenced in the OP do. Writing, like all other forms of self expression, is learned by doing. Many new writers let their insecurity paralyze them and they reach out for answers from strangers to the questions they are afraid to tackle on the page. All writing suggestions on forums such as these are generalizations. They have to be, we aren't working one-on-one and we don't really know anything about the skills and learning styles of those who are receiving the advice. Knowing that, I think the advice given by an author of a dozen books--general, or not--is very valid.


----------



## Jeko

> Your advice that "your problems will solve themselves if you just write" sounds like a generalization to me.



So your writing-related problems will be solved more easily if you don't write?


----------



## OurJud

Cadence said:


> So your writing-related problems will be solved more easily if you don't write?



Not that I'm answering for Robert, but I can think of an instance where the 'just write' philosophy is of no use. Let's say I hit a brick wall in my novel. If I don't know how to get over this hurdle without going away to think about it, how can I possibly 'just write'? Okay, you might say write ANYTHING, or write a section of your novel further on in the story, but I don't see how writing something unrelated to the story is going to help you over the hurdle, nor do I see how you can write another part of the novel before you get over the hurdle in question, as your eventual solution may influence what happens later.


----------



## Pluralized

> I don't see






> nor do I see



The word-spigot. It's fickle, and you must keep it turned on lest it dry up and you're left producing the dreaded nothing. 

I've got a Scrivener file that is where my jumble-fest lives. I go in there every day and just spill out a few sentences or a few hundred words, and when I return to serious writing, there are words ready to come out. I envy those who can just write, but I've found my own sort of practice that works well for me. 

You might not see the value in producing writing unrelated to your WIP, but sometimes it's productive to "just write."


----------



## Jeko

> Not that I'm answering for Robert, but I can think of an instance where the 'just write' philosophy is of no use. Let's say I hit a brick wall in my novel. If I don't know how to get over this hurdle without going away to think about it, how can I possibly 'just write'? Okay, you might say write ANYTHING, or write a section of your novel further on in the story, but I don't see how writing something unrelated to the story is going to help you over the hurdle, nor do I see how you can write another part of the novel before you get over the hurdle in question, as your eventual solution may influence what happens later.



Maybe the fact that you can't see the benefit of such a practice is why you find yourself hitting so many brick walls?

The very process of writing can stimulate creativity in ways that preparation and procrastination cannot. The brain is a muscle - stretching it and exercising it can help you jump those hurdles. Does an athlete stop and think as they approach a hurdle? No - they charge towards it they do their best to jump it.


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## Gavrushka

I'm of the mind that if you do hit a brick wall, it could well be because of the words that preceded that brick wall, and not because of the future words that elude you. - Culling a few thousand words may just head you off in a direction that works better.

I recognise this is not a universal solution, but could well be a useful weapon in a writer's arsenal.


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## Jeko

> I'm of the mind that if you do hit a brick wall, it could well be because of the words that preceded that brick wall, and not because of the future words that elude you. - Culling a few thousand words may just head you off in a direction that works better.



This is true. Sometimes retracing your steps helps you see a better path. But before I ever go back I make every attempt to go forward - even if that means getting out a sledgehammer and knocking down the wall brick by brick.


----------



## Myers

When I've hit a brick wall, sometimes "just write" works for me and other times, "going away to think about it" works. In fact, I solve a lot of problems and come up with plenty of ideas when I'm not sitting at the computer. And sometimes I do a little of both. It depends on the problem and my frame of mind.


----------



## Newman

Robert_S said:


> I'm not one of those "Just Write" people. That may be fine for exercises in writing, but when you set down to do something serious, you need to get serious. I like to have a blueprint, which is why I spend so much time outlining and detailing the elements I want to present. Eventually, it begins to write itself as you work more detail in.
> 
> I think if you go in with maybe a character and perhaps a central conflict and nothing else, your chance of getting something done is very slim. Some people have even less (maybe a genre and/or a theme) and they get stuck because they have only a terrain and no map. Your chance of finding your way out before dying is slim.






Robert_S said:


> Your advice that "your problems will solve themselves if you just write" sounds like a generalization to me. It doesn't state, find what works for you, just "just write."



Agree with both these comments.


----------



## Robert_S

Newman said:


> By far my favorite writing site on the net.



I have a book, The Anatomy of Story: 22 Steps to Becoming a Master Storyteller that has not a completely different approach, but adds to the concept of the Hero's Journey. I'm liking it so far and it is very much adding to my knowledge.  Just an FYI in case you wanted to see more of what goes into a good story (note: Truby does cite Star Wars quite a bit).


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## Newman

Robert_S said:


> I have a book, The Anatomy of Story: 22 Steps to Becoming a Master Storyteller that has not a completely different approach, but adds to the concept of the Hero's Journey. I'm liking it so far and it is very much adding to my knowledge.  Just an FYI in case you wanted to see more of what goes into a good story (note: Truby does cite Star Wars quite a bit).



I've read all of them. Fascinating stuff IMO.


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## TheYellowMustang

Myers said:


> When I've hit a brick wall, sometimes "just write" works for me and other times, "going away to think about it" works. In fact, I solve a lot of problems and come up with plenty of ideas when I'm not sitting at the computer. And sometimes I do a little of both. It depends on the problem and my frame of mind.



My brick walls are usually knocked down when I just leave the computer and go do something else, so I agree with this. There is no place in the world that brings out more creative ideas from me than the shower. Also, taking a walk and listening to music usually helps too. When I do stuff like that, stuff that don't require any real mental work, my narrator usually just starts rambling on in my head and suddenly it's like BAM, there it is. That perfect description, quote or whatever that I was looking for earlier.


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## BryanJ62

For me music is an amazing kick-start to the imagination. My favorite tunes, caffeine running through my veins.... sometimes I can't write the words fast enough.


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## W.Goepner

Original post by Sam,



> Just write. Everything else will sort itself out along the way. I know this from experience.



Excuse me but I disagree. Saying that is like telling Micheal Angelo (not sure of proper name) to just paint, or to just carve. Inspiration does not come by just doing anything. I am not an artiest, though I attempt to draw. I am not a carver though I attempt to carve. (wolves mostly) I might be a writer but I refuse to write nonsense. Which is what I tend to get when I write just to write. For those of you who do not believe writing is an art form close your eyes. Writing is a form of art. "It is like Painting with words" Words giving definition to feelings, sights, sounds, and thoughts. Drawing the reader into a world of the writers creation. 

I am only able to write what I am at this time, for it is emotion that drives me to counter you on this, "Just Write" topic. Allow me to remind you of one thing though, your opinion is not mine and I am sorry if I sound harsh. For you to just write is fine. For me, I must, or need to feel what it is I want to write. For instance I am a peaceable person. Writing controversy is Very, very hard for me. I have a difficult time writing the sarcastic, sardonic, and angry. I need to feel those emotions but can only do so when it is something I can get into. Guess what when those times come in my stories I tend to get block. A point being If I were to describe  rode rage to you I can I have gone through it enough I can feel it in thought. Get me started on the injustices I feel my father had dished on me. That goes without saying.

Can you tell me what animated movie this is from. "It is April and a storm approaches. All those living in the woods hunker down for the blow they know to be coming. A little mouse runs from leaf to mushroom, Pausing there for a moment to dry itself. The mouse with conical round ears, standing pink on it gray furred head. Its tiny white paws wiping the rain water from behind them and off its face. Its spherical black eyes blink and glisten in the failing light as the storm moves closer. It gets itself poised to make the last mad dash to its burrow beneath a rock." I believe this is a fair description of what I am thinking. But I cannot Draw it. Believe me it would look like a small child drew it, or nothing like I described it. To carve it? Ha! NOT with out a picture. 

Any way. Sorry for straying off topic a bit there, but have fun with that.

Bill


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## W.Goepner

OurJud said:


> I've highlighted the points I'd like to pull you up on here. Firstly, the last thing, the VERY last thing I want to do when writing is suffer and ache. I _do_, but to say that's what I want is ridiculous. Give me an easy route to the finish any day. Offer me the pain-free shortcut and I'll snap your hand off.
> 
> And secondly, I already _can_ write badly... I'm very good at it. So by that logic my writing should be a breeze. So why isn't it?



I write badly. If you do not believe me look for my piece "Dog Man" Even though I have read it several times it has very bad grammar and who knows what. Just don't give up. If writing is right for you then it will come. Writers-block. It is real. Some times it is because we do not have the story line fixed so we can follow it. Some times it is some other dilemma. Excuses? Maybe. Hiding from fact? Not even.
A person mentioned to me  about "a game of thrones" They love the series but hate the way the author goes off on tangents. You know why that is (in my opinion). Writing just to write. If you cannot think where to go just continue anyway and take a tangent trip. NOT! They say that he has of yet gone back to the first tangent and told what has happened to the caricature there. Maybe that is how he planned it. I don't know. I see a lot of open-ended stories there. I do not like that unfulfilled, unfinished feeling.  

Just me.


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## W.Goepner

FleshEater said:


> I agree with Sam's response to this. And I want to highlight one word from Kyle's post.
> 
> Dedication.
> 
> The reason you hear this advice, is because it needs to be done to become a better writer. It sucks. No one is saying it doesn't. Every kid hates baseball practice, but loves the games. You can't write a solid novel without dedication. And dedication isn't dragging your feet and writing whenever you want. It's sitting down and working at it.
> 
> So you didn't open your WIP. Great. Now, what if you had? What if that writing session that started out like crap turned into a productive thing?
> 
> The next time you don't feel like writing, set a timer and force yourself to write for 30-60 minutes. If you still don't feel like writing, then quit and go clean the house, do laundry, mow the yard, whatever. No one said you always have to work on a 100,000 word novel. Write a piece of flash, a poem, anything!
> 
> The point is, is that no one becomes a great writer by a stroke of luck and/or a lack of dedication and hard work.
> 
> Flat out. Writing is hard work. It's always going to be hard work. There is no easy road.



HA! That is why I have close to twenty beginnings and only one finished. I did dedicate myself to the one I finished. Yes it was nice to do so. But I wrote close to seventy percent of it when my sister took Mom and I to Hawaii. Every night when we did not have an excursion of some sort. I spent two to six hours on it. Nothing like a peaceful atmosphere to allow you to think. But yes close to twenty starts. Some times I think I want to write and go to one of them. read it through to find my inspiration and attempt it again. Quite often, nothing happens. But when it does. I am on my way. Oh wow I just countered myself didn't I. Truthfully I will sit and stair at the flashing cursor on the screen and wander what the heck I was thinking, when I cannot think of any thing to write.


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## Gavrushka

W.Goepner said:


> Excuse me but I disagree. Saying that is like telling Micheal Angelo (not sure of proper name) to just paint, or to just carve. Inspiration does not come by just doing anything. I am not an artiest, though I attempt to draw. I am not a carver though I attempt to carve. (wolves mostly) I might be a writer but I refuse to write nonsense. Which is what I tend to get when I write just to write. For those of you who do not believe writing is an art form close your eyes. Writing is a form of art. "It is like Painting with words" Words giving definition to feelings, sights, sounds, and thoughts. Drawing the reader into a world of the writers creation.
> 
> I am only able to write what I am at this time, for it is emotion that drives me to counter you on this, "Just Write" topic. Allow me to remind you of one thing though, your opinion is not mine and I am sorry if I sound harsh. For you to just write is fine. For me, I must, or need to feel what it is I want to write. For instance I am a peaceable person. Writing controversy is Very, very hard for me. I have a difficult time writing the sarcastic, sardonic, and angry. I need to feel those emotions but can only do so when it is something I can get into. Guess what when those times come in my stories I tend to get block. A point being If I were to describe  rode rage to you I can I have gone through it enough I can feel it in thought. Get me started on the injustices I feel my father had dished on me. That goes without saying.
> 
> Can you tell me what animated movie this is from. "It is April and a storm approaches. All those living in the woods hunker down for the blow they know to be coming. A little mouse runs from leaf to mushroom, Pausing there for a moment to dry itself. The mouse with conical round ears, standing pink on it gray furred head. Its tiny white paws wiping the rain water from behind them and off its face. Its spherical black eyes blink and glisten in the failing light as the storm moves closer. It gets itself poised to make the last mad dash to its burrow beneath a rock." I believe this is a fair description of what I am thinking. But I cannot Draw it. Believe me it would look like a small child drew it, or nothing like I described it. To carve it? Ha! NOT with out a picture.
> 
> Any way. Sorry for straying off topic a bit there, but have fun with that.
> 
> Bill



I think the intended point is that practice does tend to improve. - Alongside the help of peers, practice must have value. 

For many, many years I wrote gibberish. - My grammar was poor, but improved, my style was indistinct, but that improved sometime after the grammar. Then my stories meandered and rambled, but they too improved. Finally my prose tightened and words of merit started to form.

If I had stared at a screen waiting for future ability to coalesce within me, I'd have never moved from the place I started. - There is no teleport, just a long, weary and yet enjoyable literary road to tread. - One of the non-negotiables on that road is _just write_. Others are reading, receiving advice and learning the rules (and when to break them).

IF you are not prepared to write substandard words so that one day you may evolve into the author you'd like to be, you may flounder on the journey, and I'd not like to see that of any creative person. 

There's a monthly competition on here, and I suggest you enter it. You'll receive the critique of four judges and could well accelerate your development as a writer. -Enter a few times, and see if there are any repeated comments. - Learn from them, grow from just writing a few short stories on a given prompt.


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## Jeko

> I might be a writer but I refuse to write nonsense.



Some of the best drafts don't make much sense until they're altered by the writer as they rewrite and edit. Some people like things to work out as they go along; some people mould things only when they have the whole picture. Every writer, however, is capable of just writing. Sam's point is a matter of foundation; everything else in writing affects the process, but the process itself - the actual writing - must come first.

If a writer can only get nonsense when they 'just' write, that is their issue and not the process's.



> For me, I must, or need to feel what it is I want to write.



It's an angle, but not a necessity. IMO, a writer cannot successfully understand themselves, especially at an unpublished stage, without blocking out other opportunities for progress.



> Writers-block. It is real. Some times it is because we do not have the story line fixed so we can follow it. Some times it is some other dilemma. Excuses? Maybe. Hiding from fact? Not even.



Writer's Block is only an excuse. Everything else is a vital part of the process, and thinking of it as an obstacle is counter-intuitive.



> Quite often, nothing happens. But when it does. I am on my way... Truthfully I will sit and stair at the flashing cursor on the screen and wander what the heck I was thinking, when I cannot think of any thing to write.



This is why Sam's advice is gold. To be productive, you need to be willing to write nonsense - you'll sort it out later, but you have a story to tell. So tell it! And if you don't know how the story will continue, then work it out. And then tell it! 

I treat inspiration like salt; it makes things better, but I can still write without it. Sometimes, I have to. It's all part of the writing process.


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## W.Goepner

My cousin paints. She can Paint from a picture or her mind. She has supplies scattered throughout her parents house. Paintings here and there frames. My uncle told her one day to paint him something. Well she still has not done it. In fact there has been some turmoil in her life and she Has not done any serious work for over a year. If I understand her correctly, She cannot seam to get past the blank canvas. I understand this I also have three carvings I have set aside. I cannot seam to be able to get my hand around a certain detail. And rather than ruin the piece I set it aside until I can make it work. My brother is one I envy he looks at a paper or canvas, he sees a million possible outcomes. with a line her and one there he can narrow it down until finely it takes on a form he can work with. He does not do much artwork just for that reason. If it does not have a direction he can see right away he does not begin. In that manner I do understand the block issue and it is not a excuse it is a hurdle that is too tall for me to jump, Because I do not wish to skirt it, I hesitate thus the block. It does not mean I will not write. It is one of the many things I had to figure out in my completed work, Transition. For instance, My Main caricature has found himself in a different world. Stuck there for over a year he mates a female. Then finds out he can return to his wife, and does. Now I have my dilemma. How to portray his wife's reaction to this mating and his bringing her with him. How do I write that if I do not wish to go on a tangent? What possible way can I make it work. I struggled with it for three months. I finely figured out that their marriage was dry, lost the spark. Of course the fact that the main caricature is a shape-shifter along with his new mate helped. Writers block does not necessarily mean I cannot write anything, it in some cases is the loss of what to do with the next scene of what I am doing. Again that is why I have many started works, or WIPs.

I have a new one that came to me this morning.I have a pound rescue dog. He is my child for the lack of never fathering any. My mother calls herself grandma to him, "Come to Grandma" type of thing. I am expecting my nephew to show up and thought how he would take it in knowing he is the cousin to a dog. Thus the title I see "I am a cousin to a dog" or "My cousin is a Dog" Then writing the discription of that as I would imagine he would tell it. Maybe not today because I rather not start a new project as yet. But then again it goes alone with the Just write. So maybe I should.


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## Sam

As I've said many times on this subject: if you really want to write, you'll find a way; if you don't, you'll find an excuse. 

As a species, we invariably like to blame something other than ourselves when things don't go to plan. We make excuses: bad luck, unfair rules, difficult instructions, incompatible work environments, bad bosses, cheaters, and so on. When things go to plan, however, our immediate response is to praise ourselves. It is this subjective thinking that posits writer's block as a myth. It's a fall-back for when things don't go to plan. It's much easier to shift the blame to an abstract concept than it is to admit to ourselves that anything worth doing takes time to master. There are occasions when I don't feel like writing, but through no fault of anything other than my own preferences. Maybe I had a long day, or finished an essay for college, or wanted to watch the football. Those are my choices. I made them and they're my excuse for why I chose not to write on that occasion. I'm putting the blame squarely on my shoulders and not shifting it to something abstract so that I can feel better about my personal choices. 

_That's _what many writers use writer's block for. It makes them feel better when they lack the self-discipline to ignore the voice in their head that says, "I should catch up on the latest episode of _The Vampire Diaries._"


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## Jeko

> And rather than ruin the piece I set it aside until I can make it work.



Paint may be permanent on the canvas, but words can be eternally changed. If you ever view your work as immobile, you're restricting its potential. Free it up a bit. Allow it to breathe. It may transform in ways you don't expect.


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## W.Goepner

*A retraction, rebuttle, and apology. "Just write"*

I know what we say around here is opinion and meant to be taken with a grain of salt. Then First I will apologize to Sam and any who I might have offended. Maybe I did not offend you but I was wrong. I write for the sake of my sanity or when I need it to happen and some times I just write. 

A concept or idea can be hashed out once it is written. If in the writing it makes since, it most likely will not be disputed. But we as writers can find ourselves in situations that we are uncertain of the outcome and having another person's opinion or thoughts on it can jump us onto the correct path. This I call a sounding-board, needed by those who might be unsure of what they are trying to write. I find myself dropping the thread I began with at times and having to backtrack reread and figure out what to do with what I wrote, (keep or scratch it) some times in the middle of the chapter. This is why I disagreed with your just write idea, And your no such thing as writers block. I also dispute that everything else is excuses. 

Sam I take it you are ex-military, a staff Sargent even. If I am correct I can understand your Just Do It attitude. Being a E-3 myself in the early 80s. But not everyone is as disciplined as you. Not even me. Some times we will find ourselves faced with the obvious (to ourselves) stupid question, posted by another. And yes the repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, of many asking different versions of the same question gets monotonous. But as with all we read we can choose to see it, think about it, and react to it, IF we choose. 

I will tell you this. When I need a sounding-board for my writing. I will post it, and yes if you find it stupid you may comment on it. Maybe you will have just enough of a sarcastic, or empathic answer to jolt me on my way. At which time I would be grateful for it.


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## Terry D

Our writing output and our creativity are the result of choices we make. Those who recommend "just writing" aren't advocating just dumping garbage onto a page that has to be thrown away the next day. They (at least I) believe that the human brain can be trained to turn its creativity on by developing a routine in which creativity is planned for, and expected. I may only get two hundred words written in a session, but I seldom toss them out later. Often those tough sessions challenge my brain in ways which get it working on a problem between writing sessions. It's great to be able to let the words pour out by the bucket-full on good days, but I often learn the most about my characters and their problems when their problems create problems for me with the writing. I don't believe that my book will ever be made better by me not working on it.

As far as writer's block is concerned, it only exists for those who choose to accept it. But for those, I'm sure it is very real.


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## Bishop

I definitely just write. I have a blog dedicated to the fact that I just write. I write 2k a day, always on one of my two WsIP (That was just one WIP until I 'just wrote' a new idea, and it morphed into another WIP). You can read about it from the link in my signature (I think that's called a shameless plug)... ANYWAY.

To me, it's literally the definition of the craft. You are a writer if you write. If you have ideas, you are just an "idea man." I went to school for English at a college that was rather known for its English program. I met a lot, a LOT of students who often told me they were writers. Yet none of them ever had anything I could read. I don't mean published, I mean when I said I'd love to read something you've read, they all told me it wasn't finished and there's just not enough time in the day right now, and I really would get it done, but I can't figure out how to kill the main love interest, and I don't really think that my work will be appreciated in my time, or well it's just not ready to be read. And I will admit, I was one of those harpies as well at one time. But I realized pretty quickly that the only way to get better at something is by practice. You cannot practice without doing, and that doing is writing. No matter what it is, you must write. Daily. That is the only way to become a better writer, and someday hopefully, a professional writer.


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## W.Goepner

If any here is not familiar with my "Dog Man" Go to this spot in the forum.


Members Only Workshops 
Prose Writers' Workshop 
 Here s the start to one I call "Dog Man" 

As you will see even though I had read it several times it looks like a ten year old wrote it. 

There are different degrees of writer. The three I can Identify are, Pros; those that write nearly without thought and have talent that rivals the greats. Mediocre; those that can write in complete sentences and make sense of what they write. And the level of; Needs help or give it up. (I might fall into that last one.) There are variances within for sure. These just describe the basics in my mind.

These are harsh I will agree. But when a author from the place I put myself needs advice on a concept or would like someone to argue an idea they have, so they can "Just write" what they think they want. They will post it here or elsewhere on the net. Some of the beginnings of works I have read since Joining here have had those concepts tore apart or questioned. Some of them have had others that caught on to the idea presented and encouraged a rewrite and how to make it sit better. 

I will try to wrap my mind around an abstract and see if I can give a example. Oh yes, one I thought of many years ago and never got around to. 

(Today with the aid of the great space fairing telescopes we have looked out at distant galaxies. There we have seen many wanders, some leaving us with questions that might never be answered. There are galaxies that pin-will and those that are cloud nebula in design. 

With what we know of the movement of these objects some have run into each other forming a catastrophe of shattered systems and stars flying out and away or being sucked in to the merging cores. Not until recently has the science community been able to identify, with certainty, a paired set of smaller galactic bodies spinning toward our system. These two appear to be about one fourth the size of our own milky way and may just pass us by in the next one hundred to one hundred and fifty years. they have all ready become visible as a brighter star on the northeast horizon.)

Now aside from the obvious mess ups. Does this work for those of the science mind? Because I am not so much of that mind is why I left off attempting this. I think I was around eighteen when I thought of this. Seeing that was around 1978 I modernized it a bit.

Hey Sam, I know, Just write. Who knows? I might surprise my self.


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## Trygve

I don't think "Just Write" has to mean mindlessly pouring words into a first draft, though that is usually better than doing nothing.

  When I get stuck, I start writing questions and answering them. I ask a lot of "What happens next?" and "Why would he / she do that?"  Sometimes that leads to more action and sometimes it takes me off on a characterization or setting tangent;  and sometimes that reveals what was missing  that made that day's writing so painful.

  Then there are days when the muse seems to have left the building.  For me, it feels better to battle through the allotted time without her. For others, it's better to call it a day and come back refreshed.

 Now, if I could just find a way to write while I'm running: I'd either be brilliant and prolific, or I'd learn that those ideas weren't as good as they seemed while I was on the road.


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## W.Goepner

Trygve said:


> Now, if I could just find a way to write while I'm running: I'd either be brilliant and prolific, or I'd learn that those ideas weren't as good as they seemed while I was on the road.


 

Do you know how many times I have told myself the same thing? I prospect. (pan for gold) Living in the western sierra foothills of California,(east side of the state) it is a pastime I have enjoyed for close to thirty three years, Since I was twenty. When I take the trek of close to a mile down "Pennyweight trail", a good forty five minute walk at the best of times. I tell myself stories or run scenarios of this and that. But if I could record or write them, what a boon that would be. No digital recorders will not work Too much background noise. Note pads, I'd never get any prospecting done. Besides I might misstep and fall down the canyon. What I would give for someone to build me a thought transfer or thought recording unit.

Sigh!


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## W.Goepner

Sam My humblest apology. The more I read in this thread the more I understand your post. To include my own. I defended an idea that I thought you were implying. Yes assumption. I am a FOOL and will admit it. I even proved that you are correct in my brief snips I tossed out there. Anything and everything can be edited. It can be reworked and defined until it works. If one has an idea they think they can make work then do it. If someone else thinks its bad form or not feasible they can suggest a change or explain why it is a no go for them. I have found that I need to change my way of thinking and pay attention to what is being writen or said before I jump to the defense of something I do not fully understand that is being discussed.


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## Gavrushka

If I ever get stuck, I'll have two of my characters meet up and discuss my 'stuckness' as if it was a scene from a book...

===

"The fat bloke say's he's blocked again," Lenya said.

"It's all that stodgy food he eats," Geoff responded.

"Retard! He means he can't think of what to write next."

"Oh, so why doesn't he ask us?"

"I think he just did." Lenya shook her head. "Perhaps it may have worked better if he'd had me monologue."

===


Since I've never really been blocked, or even appreciate how such a thing could happen, my views will be naive. Writing is an organic, developing entity for me and I'd dissect the scene that came before and find where the logjam first developed. - I would imagine any blockage could be as readily contained in the words recently written, as in the future words that elude the writer.


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## Morkonan

Gavrushka said:


> If I ever get stuck, I'll have two of my characters meet up and discuss my 'stuckness' as if it was a scene from a book...



ROFL! 

I do the same, too. I may as well be writing something, even if it's my own characters insulting me for not coming up with something suitable for the work I'm doing...


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## Bishop

Gavrushka said:


> If I ever get stuck, I'll have two of my characters meet up and discuss my 'stuckness' as if it was a scene from a book...



I am SO doing this the next time I get in a block. Generally, mine only last an hour or so tops, but I really love this idea.


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## ToriJ

Gavrushka said:


> If I ever get stuck, I'll have two of my characters meet up and discuss my 'stuckness' as if it was a scene from a book...



I did something like this today. Only it was more me directly asking my character what they wanted to do next and answering from her perspective. It led to one of the better scenes I've written in a while so thank you for this idea.

I find myself having to come back to this thread to read Sam's OP for inspiration. A big contributing factor to my never finishing a book is because I get hung up on the mistakes I make instead of working on finishing the first draft. I have to remind myself not to worry about it until I get to the editing process. My only obstacles now is finding time to write fiction on top of my weekly reviews. Either way at least I'm still writing.


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## BryanJ62

*That is a great idea and you are right, either way you are still writing.*


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## W.Goepner

If this gets read then I hope you have already moved beyond the hangup. If not, here is my advise. 



OurJud said:


> Well in that case God is one sick son of a gun for giving me the desire without the ability.



1) Writing is an exercise in futility. IF! it is done in the goal to be an overnight success. Why? Simple, you are trying too hard. Writing is a means to escape, Not just for you, but for the lines that are routing through your mind. Writing should be a release, a ways to express that which you desire or despise, When writing becomes the cause of friction for you. Open a new page and tell yourself about it. (Hm,sounds like good advise, I will open a new page and call it a journal)

2) I refuse to believe any! writing is crap. Crap is something that comes out of the rear of every living creature. Writing can be sorted out. What appears to be crap, with refining more than likely will turn into the piece you desire. Writing should never be a chore. When I have ideas that want writing I give them their own page. Especially when it refuses to fit into any WIP. (I have close to 20)

3) Our desire to write is one born of, and more likely, from events, movies, other books we have read, games, and any sort of inspiration that has flashed across out lives. Any other giving is purely internal and quite possibly what is stopping you from continuing. As you stated earlier, some other issue needs addressing. I say address it with the pen.(so to speak)




> There's no such thing. 100% is the maximum.


That sort of factual thinking, I think, is exactly why you cannot progress in your writing. Writers need to accept there are such things as; Magic, Dragons, Elves, Bulletproof paint, Cars that fly, Time travel, A rocket can be made in the backyard, Werewolves, Vampires (even one named Bob), Giants, Ogres, Trolls, and yes even percentages beyond one hundred. If the creator of 'Star Trek' thought that 100% was it, where would he be. If animation was strictly left on the drawing board, What would Jabba the Hut be, or C3po? No 100,000% is 100% times ten. Ten items of measurement, or ten people's Ideas. There cannot be any impossibilitys when it comes to writing, Otherwise, writing will most likely fail, for you, or the one that thinks it.


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## Throughy

I would say just write, as Sam said, _and_ investigate - either along the way or after.  There may be no best answer or strategy - only the way the story was executed which you bring your personalized skills & abilities to help create.

I think part of this stems from fear of getting derailed by a faulty structure from the start... and being into it for the rest of the story possibly without knowing about it til its finally complete. Being left with something not reworkable. Given the commitment required, it's a conundrum.


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## The Green Shield

The way I see it is this: there are people whose writing are so pathetically bad that I know for a fact that I could do better. Yet they got published, some of them even won medals!

Now I'm not saying I'd do any better (ironically), I'm saying that with dedication, it's possible. Trust me dude/dudette, I'm in the same boat as you: I have the desire to write but my ability looks like bird shit. But then again...that's the _point_ of a first draft, isn't it? To suck. Absolutely, completely, and utterly suck? Be the worst writer you can possibly be, and through re-writes, be the best writer you can possibly be. It's *liberating!!* I don't have to be Stephen King or JK Rowling. I can be so bad that if Dan Brown looked at my first draft, he'd clutch his stomach and haul ass to the bathroom. That's the point of the first draft. The edits are to sharpen it up to the best it can possibly be.


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## W.Goepner

The Green Shield said:


> The way I see it is this: there are people whose writing are so pathetically bad that I know for a fact that I could do better. Yet they got published, some of them even won medals!
> 
> Now I'm not saying I'd do any better (ironically), I'm saying that with dedication, it's possible. Trust me dude/dudette, I'm in the same boat as you: I have the desire to write but my ability looks like bird shit. But then again...that's the _point_ of a first draft, isn't it? To suck. Absolutely, completely, and utterly suck? Be the worst writer you can possibly be, and through re-writes, be the best writer you can possibly be. It's *liberating!!* I don't have to be Stephen King or JK Rowling. I can be so bad that if Dan Brown looked at my first draft, he'd clutch his stomach and haul ass to the bathroom. That's the point of the first draft. The edits are to sharpen it up to the best it can possibly be.



This is about one of the most sensible statements I have ever read. 

The trick is, to get it down on the proverbial paper and then deal with any issues which arise afterwords. Like I stated sometime back, I was confused with Sam's original statement and fought the idea of Just write, then I remembered how I completed my first piece by doing Just that. I wrote, every chance I had, I wrote, I forced myself to one hour minimum and some times I went to bed as the sky began to get light, But I wrote. Then I read it, and reread it, and corrected it. Then did it three more times before I let a cousin read it. Then I reread it ten more times and corrected things I thought were not right with each one. Now I have it with a volunteer who is taking some time around their life and correcting it as they see fit. Yes they are getting a coauthor spot if we get it to published form. This is because I am not quite a spit and polished writer, but I am working on it.


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## denmark423

Exactly! Just write.


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## John Oberon

I agree that you need to write if you want to call yourself a writer. But I also think there's no such thing as a stupid question from a beginner.

I suppose I view those kind of questions differently than Sam. I never think people ask those questions simply to learn answers. I think they also ask them to connect with and learn about other writers. I know I did. When I was very young, I looked up the answers to several fairly mundane writing questions, then asked those questions of people who ostensibly knew something about writing. In doing this, I discovered whether these people actually knew what they were talking about, whether they were patient and kind or curt and bristly, whether they liked talking with kids, whether they expressed themselves in a way I understood, whether they were _really_ interested in writing and helping me improve, etc. This is how I found one of my first mentors. While most are probably not as deliberate and analytical as me, I can't help but think that most people embrace the relational aspect of asking questions far more than they realize. I know of no faster way to connect with people than to ask a question.


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## denmark423

I love the idea of "just write". You will get into things needed to be corrected after you get done writing.


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