# Workshops: worth it?



## Topper88 (Jun 17, 2013)

I'm thinking about signing up for one coming up in a week. What's the general consensus on them? This is the one I'm looking at

06/29 How to Write Good: Masterclass w/ John Vorhaus | San Diego Writers, Ink


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## Sam (Jun 17, 2013)

They're a lot more expensive than a book -- and won't teach you anything that extensive reading hasn't already covered.


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## philistine (Jun 17, 2013)

Sam said:


> They're a lot more expensive than a book -- and won't teach you anything that extensive reading hasn't already covered.



/thread

I'd also like to add this, to make my post at least somewhat worthwhile:



> The greatest part of a writer's time is spent in reading, in order to write; a man will turn over half a library to make one book.


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## Topper88 (Jun 17, 2013)

Thanks guys, from the bottom of my wallet.


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## Blade (Jun 17, 2013)

:icon_shaking: "How to Write Good" as a title? :shock: Should be "How to Write *Well"* I think.


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## Topper88 (Jun 17, 2013)

Blade said:


> :icon_shaking: "How to Write Good" as a title? :shock: Should be "How to Write *Well"* I think.


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## philistine (Jun 17, 2013)

Blade said:


> :icon_shaking: "How to Write Good" as a title? :shock: Should be "How to Write *Well"* I think.



Ain't that a kick in the head?


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## Bloggsworth (Jun 18, 2013)

Sam said:


> They're a lot more expensive than a book -- and won't teach you anything that extensive reading hasn't already covered.


Twaddle. Sitting round a table discussing the craft of writing will teach you far more than any book ever will; I have yet to see a book which can answer a question directly asked; immediate and very personal feedback is by far the best form of learning - Though I have my doubts about the quality of any course which has the title "*How to write good*", personally I would look for one with some basic idea of correct grammatical usage...


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## Sam (Jun 18, 2013)

Bloggsworth said:


> Twaddle. Sitting round a table discussing the craft of writing will teach you far more than any book ever will; I have yet to see a book which can answer a question directly asked; immediate and very personal feedback is by far the best form of learning - Though I have my doubts about the quality of any course which has the title "*How to write good*", personally I would look for one with some basic idea of correct grammatical usage...



Twaddle? 

In my opinion, creative writing classes are a waste of time and money. They amount mostly to people slapping each other on the back with compliments and blaming their lack of published work on Wayne Rooney and other celebrities who are saturating the market with rubbish. Once you meet someone in person and befriend them, you're less inclined to be honest with them. It's a basic human flaw that doesn't exist on Internet forums because members don't know each other from a hole in the wall. 

But let me clarify, in case something was lost in translation: There is a not a single thing a creative writing course will teach you that extensive reading cannot also. That is a fact endorsed by every author worth his/her salt.


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## Non Serviam (Jun 18, 2013)

I've always, and strongly, felt that writing courses are an expensive way to waste a week.  You can learn most of what you need to know from reading, and you can get the rest from a critique group.  (Such as the critique forums on writing sites, in fact.)

But if there's someone who went on a writing course and thinks they got their money's worth, I'd be interested to hear from them and learn what it was that was so great.


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## JosephB (Jun 18, 2013)

I took a writing class/workshop at a local university. I hadn't been  writing long -- I did learn something, and it really boosted my  confidence. I feel like it really gave me a kick-start. Plus, I really enjoyed the interaction and social  experience.  Funny -- but I didn't really see people patting each other on the back or complaining about  "their lack of published work." Maybe I missed that class. And you don't get feedback or constructive criticism from reading -- it's an entirely different kind of learning.

I'm sure the quality varies a  great deal, depending on the instructor and the class -- pretty silly  to assume they're all the same or that they all have no value --  especially if you haven't done one. Mine was once a week for six weeks  -- cost $190.00 -- and I thought it was worth every penny. I have friends who pay a lot more than that in 6 weeks to play golf. But since  there's no guarantee -- it's mostly about what you can afford -- or  afford to lose if you don't get much out of it. So no -- I probably wouldn't clean out my checking account to take a writing class.


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## Sam (Jun 18, 2013)

I've been to a workshop, Joe. My ex-girlfriend paid for one a couple of years back as a Christmas present. We all wrote a piece each week and exchanged it for critique. There was one so woefully bad that I couldn't make head nor tail of it, and everyone except me praised the girl who wrote it. No one would tell her the truth because she was a lovely person and they didn't want to hurt her feelings. That isn't the point of work-shopping. All I saw was people patting each other on the back and perpetuating myths about publishing houses ignoring talent. Throughout the course I learned absolutely nothing that I didn't already know. 

I'm not saying it's the same with all creative writing workshops. I cannot speak to the validity of that argument because I've only been to one. However, everything they covered there I had already learned from reading -- and there was so much over-thinking going on. The teacher spent more time talking about 8-point arcs and other nonsensical literary terminology that people went out of there knowing less than they did when they went in.


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## luckyscars (Jun 18, 2013)

I'd have to agree with Sam.

I'm sure there are SOME good workshops out there, but in my experience they seem pretty rare. The main issue is that you wont have a hope in hell of knowing whether a workshop will actually benefit you or not until its too late - i.e you've paid for it. So on balance I wouldn't recommend them unless you can afford to throw away the money. 

I have been to a couple, not counting the dreaded 'creative writing' course I took at college, which included a mandatory weekly short-story workshop which was so bad that I ended up turning up drunk just so I could keep my mouth shut. They were all fairly useless when it came to providing real improvement. Mainly because every writer is different, their tastes varied, their habits and preferences as readers convoluted and contradicting of one another. When I submitted my stuff about two thirds said it was 'really good' (yeah right), a handful of loudmouths tore it apart and the rest sat in silence. You might just as well round up a group of your buddies and go to a coffee shop.

In defence of workshops, they can at times offer a fairly decent insight into the work of other aspiring writers if that is what you are looking for or if you just need some kind of ego boost. Unfortunately the insight tends to revolve around reading a bunch of literary excrement and constantly thinking to yourself 'I can do waaaay better than this'. Like Sam says, there is a big problem with the political side also...

I remember in one workshop there was this guy who intentionally wrote what I will generously describe as 'transgressive literature' - i.e it was essentially masochism pornography with a healthy dose of baby killing. The content of his stuff was so upsetting it was evidently impossible for most of those attending to critique his work impartially. So he became as close to a pariah as is possible in a workshop (i.e he was mostly received with an awkward silence). Then there was this other chick who seemed to have some kind of obsession with medieval romance - that was all she wrote and it was painfully terrible - but she was cute and endearingly dim so people liked her and coincidentally accepted her work, although I couldn't help but think most of us knew her writing was pretty dire, certainly no better than Doctor Evil and his dead-babies-in-the-refrigerator shtick. 

That, in a nutshell, is the problem with workshops.


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## JosephB (Jun 18, 2013)

Sam said:


> I've been to a workshop, Joe. My ex-girlfriend paid  for one a couple of years back as a Christmas present. We all wrote a  piece each week and exchanged it for critique. There was one so woefully  bad that I couldn't make head nor tail of it, and everyone except me  praised the girl who wrote it. No one would tell her the truth because  she was a lovely person and they didn't want to hurt her feelings. That  isn't the point of work-shopping. All I saw was people patting each  other on the back and perpetuating myths about publishing houses  ignoring talent. Throughout the course I learned absolutely nothing that  I didn't already know.
> 
> I'm not saying it's the same with all creative writing workshops. I  cannot speak to the validity of that argument because I've only been to  one. However, everything they covered there I had already learned from  reading -- and there was so much over-thinking going on. The teacher  spent more time talking about 8-point arcs and other nonsensical  literary terminology that people went out of there knowing less than  they did when they went in.



OK -- because the last time we had this conversation, you hadn't done a workshop or taken a creative writing class.

I read before I decided to take up writing -- and of course, you learn a lot just by osmosis. At least for me anyway -- how you learn from reading is different once you start writing. As a beginner, I felt the class was helpful. Like I said, it gave me a kick-start. I wouldn't get as much out of it now -- and I likely won't take another one. But I wouldn't dismiss doing a workshop based on what I know _now_ -- regardless of how I got to this point -- by reading, or posting here or whatever. That just doesn't make a lot of sense.

PS -- the other thing is, I like to try new things and get out and meet people. I had fun just talking about writing with other aspiring writers -- something I never get to do. I really enjoyed that aspect of it -- and even if I hadn't learned much about writing, it would have been worth it just for that.


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## luckyscars (Jun 18, 2013)

I will also say that there are SOME workshops I would probably attend IF whoever was doing it was obviously qualified. It would be hard not to cough up to hear Stephen King discuss how he managed to consistently churn out one bestseller after another. Same applies to Chuck Palahniuk, Cormac McCarthy, Tom Clancy or just about anybody who has demonstrated consistent success or who I admire. So, as Joe says, it would be hard to dismiss them completely. But Doctor Quack and his 'How to Write Good'? Not for me.


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## Terry D (Jun 18, 2013)

Every writer develops in his or her own way based on that individual's own personality and learning proclivities. I've taken creative writing classes (2) and I enjoyed them very much. I learned from them that I am a lousy poet, but that people like my short stories. I didn't really learn how to make them better. I've read lots of 'how-to' books on writing an have picked up a few pointers. But, mostly I've learned by comparing my writing to the writing of authors I enjoy--and to those I hate--and by getting feedback from readers. Others may respond better to the classroom/workshop environment, I don't know. All I know for sure is there's no method I know of that will make you a writer, other than to write--a lot.


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## luckyscars (Jun 18, 2013)

Terry D said:


> I've taken creative writing classes (2) and I enjoyed them very much. I learned from them that I am a lousy poet, but that people like my short stories.



Question though... How did you learn this based solely on creative writing classes? Did they point out one or more issues with your work that then made you realize on your own they were lousy, or did you base this conclusion on the general reception you got from those in the class?

Reason I'm asking is that those who attend writing workshops represent a tiny minority of those who actually write, and an even smaller minority of those who read. They also tend to be from restricted demographics (i.e reasonably affluent, middle to upper class, college educated) which do not, for me anyway, form the target audience of my work. I'm not wishing to suggest your assessment was wrong, but I would never base my views on my work on what the people in the workshops say.


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## Terry D (Jun 18, 2013)

The class I was in which required some poetry writing was the first time I ever attempted the form. So, after a few early poems I realized--by doing the work--that I have little skill for it. I did learn, however, that the precision with language required to be an effective poet can be a great asset to a prose writer as well. The class never responded negatively to my poetry. I simply realized that my phrasing was clunky and my word selection mundane. These were general ed classes were at a small mid-western community college and the demographics were blue-collar and ethnically varied.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Jun 18, 2013)

I don't know about a one-time workshop, but I took creative writing classes all through high school. Admittedly I might find less value in them as an adult. But we formed a very tight little critique group, we met everyday and we'd tear each other's work to shreds, basically--there was a girl in the younger class who watched ours and started crying because she thought we were _so mean_ to each other, but we just knew each other really well. I took a poetry workshop class in college and didn't feel it was nearly as worthwhile, I think the group dynamic just wasn't there.

So I'd say the value of a workshop class (over a semester or something) probably depends on who's in the class and who's leading it. If you're lucky you find people who know how to read you, can see what you're trying to do and tell you whether it's successful or not. And frankly, deride "back-slapping" all you want, but sometimes emotional support is huge.

If I had money and time I'd try it again, maybe.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Jun 18, 2013)

Though I've never been to one, in theory workshops should be of great value.  I'd liken them to taking private lessons; sure, you can study and learn something on your own, but unless you have actual people looking at your results, you're not going to improve as quickly.

That said, I don't ever expect to take advantage of a writing workshop, because my hubris says I don't need to.


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## ppsage (Jun 18, 2013)

I like classes and workshops. I wouldn't take this one on a bet.


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## Man From Mars (Jun 18, 2013)

Depends on the workshop.

I found mine fulfilling as a new writer, especially the advanced class at the university. However the quality of the workshop really depends on the people in it. Sometimes you'll get nothing but praise. Other times you might get backhanded comments. I never faced such problems but they're out there.


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## Bloggsworth (Jun 18, 2013)

Sam said:


> Twaddle?
> 
> In my opinion, creative writing classes are a waste of time and money. They amount mostly to people slapping each other on the back with compliments and blaming their lack of published work on Wayne Rooney and other celebrities who are saturating the market with rubbish. Once you meet someone in person and befriend them, you're less inclined to be honest with them. It's a basic human flaw that doesn't exist on Internet forums because members don't know each other from a hole in the wall.
> 
> But let me clarify, in case something was lost in translation: There is a not a single thing a creative writing course will teach you that extensive reading cannot also. That is a fact endorsed by every author worth his/her salt.



Not my experience, nor that of anyone I know, perhaps you get out what you put in. And as for authors who claim you can learn nothing, it's a form of bragging "_Look what I did all on my ownsome, aren't I a clever boy/girl_..." Amazing how many of them take the shilling to teach what they so decry. Ian McEwan credits his success to the creative writing course he did at The University of East Anglia in Norwich, a course taught by a couple of failed authors Malcolm Bradbury and Angus Wilson ...


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## Folcro (Jun 18, 2013)

Not to sound like a cop-out, but it does depend. Those who have been to a work shop and had a bad experience will tend to lean on thinking all workshops are useless; whereas those who had a good experience will say that they are good. It depends on who is teaching it, and also, who is attending it. It would be wise to learn all that you can about the specific workshop. 

Me, for instance, I volunteer every year at a writer's conference in Southampton, NY, and am given free attendance to the workshops there. I took many with a crime-writer, John Westermann (Exit Wounds, High Crimes). I can honestly say the man brought me ten years ahead of where I would otherwise have been. 

Sam pointed out that workshops offer nothing that self-teaching can't. Even if I did agree with this, peer-review and aid from a person who writes for a living (most of the rest of us have day jobs, therefor not as much time) can and most assuredly will bring us ahead much faster. And--- if I really have to say it--- time is money.

Bottom line: do research, google the instructor if you can, seek reviews. Some of the best writers are still not good teachers. But there are DEFINITELY some amazing workshops out there. Good luck to it.


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## Sam (Jun 18, 2013)

Folcro said:


> Sam pointed out that workshops offer nothing that self-teaching can't. Even if I did agree with this, peer-review and aid from a person who writes for a living (most of the rest of us have day jobs, therefor not as much time) can and most assuredly will bring us ahead much faster. And--- if I really have to say it--- time is money.



_Nothing _will bring you ahead faster in writing. It's a myth perpetuated by impatient people who want to believe that even though every writer they've ever met insists against the notion, there _are _shortcuts in the world of writing. There are none. You will not become a good writer unless you put in the work, and fifty per cent of that work amounts to one simple thing: reading. 

I have never heard of an author who downplayed the importance of reading. It was Stephen King who famously said, "If you haven't time to read, you haven't the tools to write". That's what it boils down to. You can attend all the creative writing classes you want, and receive all the peer reviews your heart desires, but there is no substitute for constant reading. When I started a double degree in English literature and history, the first thing the course co-ordinator told the entire class was this: "If you read as much as you possibly can, you will make it through this blindfolded". 

He was right.


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## JosephB (Jun 18, 2013)

Maybe I missed it -- but did anyone say anything about forgoing or cutting back on reading in favor of attending a workshop?


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## Gamer_2k4 (Jun 18, 2013)

Sam said:


> You can attend all the creative writing classes you want, and receive all the peer reviews your heart desires, but there is no substitute for constant reading.



That's like saying, "You can get the best piano teacher in the world, but it's no substitute for constant practice."

Of course not.  No one ever said it would be.  But you'll make much better progress with a teacher and practice than with practice alone.


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## ppsage (Jun 18, 2013)

> It was Stephen King who famously said, "If you haven't time to read, you haven't the tools to write".


Despite which advice he has also famously attended both workshops and classes and he subsequently has also famously lead and taught both.


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## Bloggsworth (Jun 18, 2013)

When I was in my late teens/early twenties I used to read 2 or 3 books a day, didn't write a word for 40 years; writing makes you a writer, reading makes you a reader.


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## Sam (Jun 18, 2013)

JosephB said:


> Maybe I missed it -- but did anyone say anything about forgoing or cutting back on reading in favor of attending a workshop?



No, but they said that attending a workshop will make you a better writer quicker than reading will. The number of workshops it would take to convey the information assimilated through reading would be astronomical. If I took one aspiring writer and made him/her attend a writing workshop for a year, and took another and made him/her read as many books as possible for a year, I would stake my life savings that the latter would produce a superior piece of work. 

There is no substitute for well-rounded reading. It's like saying you'd read a how-to guide instead of a novel. A how-to guide tells you how to do it; a novel shows you. That should make sense to a community that routinely lauds showing.


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## Kyle R (Jun 18, 2013)

What if a person attends workshops _and_ reads voraciously? 

I've taken a few creative writing classes, and also attended a handful of workshops (which are two different things, really. In a class, the instructor discusses narrative techniques and such, whereas a workshop is mostly just sharing your work with other attendees and giving/receiving feedback, at least from my experiences).

I learned a lot from classes, new things to try and apply. From workshops, I became more aware of my own writing flaws and tendencies.

Overall, though, I feel I've improved the most from the Writing Workshop here on the forums. I receive better feedback here than I have at the workshops I've attended in person--and all from the comfort of my own home! And it's free! :encouragement:


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## Sam (Jun 18, 2013)

Bloggsworth said:


> When I was in my late teens/early twenties I used to read 2 or 3 books a day, didn't write a word for 40 years; writing makes you a writer, reading makes you a reader.



Sure, writing makes you a writer. Reading and writing makes you a great writer. I'm frankly amazed that that concept is so difficult to understand for a group of writers.


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## Blade (Jun 18, 2013)

Bloggsworth said:


> When I was in my late teens/early twenties I used to read 2 or 3 books a day, didn't write a word for 40 years; writing makes you a writer, reading makes you a reader.


:sunny: You , like myself, have a significant reservoir of reading built up over time which has to enhance your writing efforts of the present. Reading and writing do not have to mixed in the same pot.:idea:


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## JosephB (Jun 18, 2013)

Sam said:


> No, but they said that attending a workshop will make you a better writer quicker than reading will. The number of workshops it would take to convey the information assimilated through reading would be astronomical. If I took one aspiring writer and made him/her attend a writing workshop for a year, and took another and made him/her read as many books as possible for a year, I would stake my life savings that the latter would produce a superior piece of work.
> 
> There is no substitute for well-rounded reading. It's like saying you'd  read a how-to guide instead of a novel. A how-to guide tells you how to  do it; a novel shows you. That should make sense to a community that  routinely lauds showing.



What was said is that it would "bring you ahead faster" -- I took that to mean faster than not doing a workshop or just reading. I can't see where anyone is suggesting that workshops are a better way to learn or that they're a substitute for reading.

Everyone learns differently Sam. For example, not every novelist has to write 10 or 11 novels to get to something he feels is publishable -- like you did. You tend to go on like the way you do things is the only way -- and that any other approach is flawed. It’s really not a very good way to look at things. I enjoyed my workshop -- and I got something out of it. Sorry yours wasn't any good -- but those are the breaks.


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## Sam (Jun 18, 2013)

JosephB said:


> What was said is that it would "bring you ahead faster" -- I took that to mean faster than not doing a workshop or just reading. I can't see where anyone suggesting that workshops are a better way to learn or that they're a substitute for reading.
> 
> Everyone learns differently Sam. For example, not every novelist has to write 10 or 11 novels to get to something he feels is publishable -- like you did. You tend to go on like the way you do things is the only way -- and that any other approach is flawed. It’s really not a very good way to look at things.



I never mentioned anything about my work, Joe. My main standpoint through this entire thread is that workshops are an expensive substitute for a book. I was subsequently derided for that by a couple of people. 

I don't advocate that there is only one way to approach writing, but neither do I believe that a writer has the luxury of ignoring the foremost aspect of learning any creative endeavour. That is, to study the masters of the trade. It's why apprentices go to tradesmen to learn their craft. In that regard, writers learn best by reading books. The problem with some people is that they think there's a big secret we're all holding out on -- some panacea that will get them to where they need to be without putting in the work. If I've learned anything from this site, it's that few people are willing to discover things on their own. It's too easy to type a question into Google and get an instant answer. Yes, it took me nine novels before I realised that I had reached a publishable standard. I'm not ashamed about that. It taught me everything I needed to know about writing novels. 

As I said earlier in the thread: Go to a creative writing class if you want to. It's no skin off my teeth. But saying that it's more beneficial than reading -- or that it will make you a better writer in a quicker time -- is frankly absurd. And, yes, that has been stated here.


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## JosephB (Jun 18, 2013)

Sam said:


> But saying that it's more beneficial than reading -- or that it will make you a better writer in a quicker time -- is frankly absurd. And, yes, that has been stated here.



What people are saying is that a workshop can be beneficial -- _in addition to reading_. No one is saying they are a substitute. Attending a workshop doesn't preclude "learning from the masters" or any other form of learning. And it doesn't mean you're looking for a "shortcut." No one is saying any of this stuff.

Can it "make you a better writer in quicker time?" I don't see why not. Some things were brought to my attention that I might have figured out on my own eventually -- but I didn't have to.

But whatever -- have fun arguing with yourself.



KyleColorado said:


> What if a person attends workshops _and_ reads voraciously?



I'm betting a lot of people do just that.


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## ppsage (Jun 18, 2013)

> The problem with some people is that they think there's a big secret we're all holding out on -- some panacea that will get them to where they need to be without putting in the work.


Seems to me that the workshop in question is trying to appeal to people who'd believe this.  



> If I've learned anything from this site, it's that few people are willing to discover things on their own.


Not me! I'm working on this round thing to put vehicles on; going to revolutionize how I do things, if I ever get it working.

Incidentally, every fiction writing class I've taken has required tons of reading and has provided context for that reading which would have been impossible to provide on my own.


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## philistine (Jun 18, 2013)

I'll throw my hat in the ring again:

I can honestly say that writing books, much like art school, taught me virtually nothing. Not just one or two of them, but all of them- the aggregate. I learned best by consulting my significant and well-chosen library. If I wanted to know how to do something, either pertaining to the structure of a work, how to insert certain pieces of punctuation effectively, or whatever else- I'd pull something, or several things off the shelves, and see how the thoroughgoing masters of the craft (where are few, to be sure) did it for themselves. 

Due to the above, I don't ever see myself ever attending one of these workshops. I can't be certain that I wouldn't learn anything, though it'd be a damned good guess. I'm still improving as a writer, and no doubt will continue to do so as long I'm putting pen to paper. The books of others have been my tutors, and they've given me a good, all-round education thus far.


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## JosephB (Jun 18, 2013)

philistine said:


> I can honestly say that writing books, much like art school, taught me virtually nothing.



My painting and drawing improved exponentially in my two years of core art classes. I suspect it had more to do with practice than anything else. For example, in advanced figure drawing, we drew from live models three days a week for a semester. Plus, my instructor was an amazing artist with a great eye -- he could really hone in on what was working and wasn't and relay it all to you in way that made sense. I don't think I ever could have ever learned more on my own -- certainly not in that compressed time-frame.


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## Folcro (Jun 18, 2013)

philistine said:


> I'll throw my hat in the ring again:
> 
> I can honestly say that writing books, much like art school, taught me virtually nothing.



Eek... they must have been some bad books.  What about the process of having your books peer edited? Has that taught you nothing?

This entire site, after all, is sort of a work shop. If workshops are truly useless, we probably shouldn't be here...

It really is about talent. And, as JoeB said, the manner in which the individual learns. There are people I know who read prolifically but write without creativity; skilled, perhaps, but dry. Me, I don't read much. Not very much at all. Not novels, anyway. But I do think I'm a pretty good story-teller and writer.

By the way, Sam, JoeB mentioned you having discussed this issue even _before_ attending your workshop. I'm assuming you had the same position then as you do now? Is it possible, given your firm stance on the matter, that you didn't like the workshop you subsequently took because you did not _want _to like it?


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## philistine (Jun 18, 2013)

Folcro said:


> Eek... they must have been some bad books.  What about the process of having your books peer edited?



That was a poorly written sentence, admittedly. I didn't mean writing books- my own books- but books on the subject of writing. Entertaining reads, without a doubt, but on the whole not too enlightening. I do, however, from the effort expended, have an encyclopaedic knowledge of the comma and semi-colon.


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## Folcro (Jun 18, 2013)

philistine said:


> That was a poorly written sentence, admittedly. I didn't mean writing books- my own books- but books on the subject of writing. Entertaining reads, without a doubt, but on the whole not too enlightening. I do, however, from the effort expended, have an encyclopaedic knowledge of the comma and semi-colon.



Ohh, I see now. I agree in that regard... more or less. But even if the take-home is minimal ("_virtually_ nothing"), it's something. I think, as the formulating consensus seems to dictate, the proper amount of each is optimal. How-to books, literature, the mentoring of experienced instructors and peers (or "workshops")... and many things beyond that, even video games have played their part in teaching me certain styles of dialogue, story-structure and pace. How much of each is the proper amount depends, of course, on the individual.


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## Kyle R (Jun 18, 2013)

philistine said:


> I'll throw my hat in the ring again:
> 
> I can honestly say that writing books, much like art school, taught me virtually nothing. Not just one or two of them, but all of them- the aggregate. I learned best by consulting my significant and well-chosen library. If I wanted to know how to do something, either pertaining to the structure of a work, how to insert certain pieces of punctuation effectively, or whatever else- I'd pull something, or several things off the shelves, and see how the thoroughgoing masters of the craft (where are few, to be sure) did it for themselves.
> 
> Due to the above, I don't ever see myself ever attending one of these workshops. I can't be certain that I wouldn't learn anything, though it'd be a damned good guess. I'm still improving as a writer, and no doubt will continue to do so as long I'm putting pen to paper. The books of others have been my tutors, and they've given me a good, all-round education thus far.



Ah, but what if the workshop was being instructed by one of your favorite authors?


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## philistine (Jun 18, 2013)

KyleColorado said:


> Ah, but what if the workshop was being instructed by one of your favorite authors?



In that case, I'd have to make an exception. Seeing Fitzgerald, straight from the crypt, and discoursing at length on matters character and dialogue would really be a sight to behold.


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## Sam (Jun 19, 2013)

> Me, I don't read much. Not very much at all. Not novels, anyway. But I do think I'm a pretty good story-teller and writer.



I think it's incredible that there are writers and aspiring writers who don't read at all. Here's what reading does that no workshop can ever hope to replicate: 

It gives you a sense of how writing should be done; how to create effective dialogue, prose, and characters; how to insert tension, conflict, and drama; how to maintain tone and pitch in sentences; it offers inspiration for our own work; it increases our vocabulary; it increases our creativity; it stimulates our minds; it affords us unique insight into the human condition which can be found at the heart of almost every novel; it helps with research. 

I could go on and on. Reading is equally if not more important than writing. To ignore one or the other is to ask which came first: The chicken or the egg. It doesn't matter, because neither can exist without the other.


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## JosephB (Jun 19, 2013)

Sam said:


> I think it's incredible that there are writers and  aspiring writers who don't read at all. Here's what reading does that no  workshop can ever hope to replicate:
> 
> It gives you a sense of how writing should be done; how to create  effective dialogue, prose, and characters; how to insert tension,  conflict, and drama; how to maintain tone and pitch in sentences; it  offers inspiration for our own work; it increases our vocabulary; it  increases our creativity; it stimulates our minds; it affords us unique  insight into the human condition which can be found at the heart of  almost every novel; it helps with research.
> 
> I could go on and on. Reading is equally if not more important than  writing. To ignore one or the other is to ask which came first: The  chicken or the egg. It doesn't matter, because neither can exist without  the other.



Folcro said he doesn't read "very much at all" -- not that he doesn't read at all.

The thing is, you haven't read Folcro's work -- so you have no idea how his reading habits affect his work. He might not have to read as much as you do. And what we're really talking about is what you read over a lifetime -- what makes an impression and most importantly -- what is retained. And we all know what reading does. The question is -- how much reading is required? There's no way to answer that.

I don't read that much either. I might go weeks between novels or short story collections. I've probably read a fraction of what you've read. You've read a number of my short stories -- do you think they're lacking in the areas you've listed above? How do you think my writing stacks up against yours?

I think in my case, it has more to do with quality over quantity. I'm very selective about what I read. If the writing in a novel isn't up to my standards, I put it down, sometimes after a page or two. And when I think back -- only a handful of authors have had an impact on me and in turn, a relatively small number of works. And like I said, we all learn and retain differently. If you've had to do all that reading to get where you are -- great. But don't assume it's the same way for everyone -- which seems to be a bad habit of yours.


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## Folcro (Jun 19, 2013)

Sam said:


> I think it's incredible that there are writers and aspiring writers who don't read at all. Here's what reading does that no workshop can ever hope to replicate:
> 
> It gives you a sense of how writing should be done; how to create effective dialogue, prose, and characters; how to insert tension, conflict, and drama; how to maintain tone and pitch in sentences; it offers inspiration for our own work; it increases our vocabulary; it increases our creativity; it stimulates our minds; it affords us unique insight into the human condition which can be found at the heart of almost every novel; it helps with research.
> 
> I could go on and on. Reading is equally if not more important than writing. To ignore one or the other is to ask which came first: The chicken or the egg. It doesn't matter, because neither can exist without the other.



The workshops I attended did every bit of this for me in droves. It was a boost of confidence and inspiration in a period of time that reading had never done. It took what my subconscious learned from a lifetime of reading and writing and shoved it front and center. It put me on a stage, made me think on my feet, made me look inside myself and realize all that I already knew, but for some reason had never applied. I think many writers are well familiar with this feeling. 

And... if I had to guess... I'd say writing definitely came first.


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## luckyscars (Jun 20, 2013)

Probably the main sticking point here is to do with the fact that reading and workshops do tend to teach quite separate things in, of course, very different ways...

Let's simplify it to something we can (hopefully) all agree on. The first best way to become a great writer is to WRITE. Speaking for myself, my writing has improved, primarily, from the experience of having started and (occasionally) completing projects 9999999 times. Never been completely happy with any of them. However the improvement in process and output from practice (even though I was never actually 'practicing' consciously) is beyond even my own doubt. 

So writing is #1 on the list. Kind of beyond argument, that one.

Secondary to writing (although, arguably, a joint-primary) is reading. You have to read. You don't necessarily have to read ALL the time. Honestly I read much less now than when I was younger but that isnt because I care any less, its that before I was just reading but now I am reading AND writing so naturally the reading is less now. However my background in reading - all those years where I used to CONSUME books at a rate of a dozen or more a month - that has paid dividends and continues to because I now know what a book is. I have read Fitzgerald, Hemingway, Dickens, Dostoyevsky, etc. So now I read a couple of books a month by whoever I feel like and do so to keep my mind refreshed, to study techniques, and most of all for enjoyment. The rest of the time I dedicate to my own writing. You have to read. There is no substitute. There are no football players who haven't seen football before and there are no good writers who haven't read.

Third up would be the 'workshops'. I put that in quotes because by 'workshops' I really mean any kind of forum - including this forum - for sharing your work, giving and receiving criticism, and studying the (unfinished) work of others. To me this is very much a tertiary requirement. It is rather like the debate of whether a aspiring musician needs to take music lessons or not. You can give me names of those who have and I can give you names of those who havent. There is very little correlation between ability and attendance on this issue.

The answer is always no. It is not necessary to do this to become a master at the art, and we can say this with some degree of certainty because of the number of published writers (which, historically, has been most of them) who did not require this stuff to achieve success. That said, a workshop can be extremely beneficial for SOME people. Also, as stated before, it does depend on the nature of the workshop, who is leading it, etc. 

So as far as the debate here goes - comparing the benefits of reading to the benefits of workshops is absurdity, because they are simply not in the same league of importance. No writer worth their salt will tell you you have to take a workshop to become a great writer. It is simply not true. However every writer will tell you you have to do the primary and secondary - the writing and reading. 

There are all kinds of things you can do which CAN improve your writing skills to varying degrees. Workshops are just one of them. There are self-help books, magazines, studying interviews with published writers, taking English classes, traveling, dropping acid and meditating under a tree etc etc etc. And yes, in an ideal world where time and money were limitless, it would probably be optimal for all writers to try everything. But the ONLY mandatory qualification to being a great writer is being a good reader and a good writer. Period.


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