# Land of the Free?



## Baron (Feb 11, 2011)

America imprisons a far higher percentage of its population than any other nation in the world, including those countries that it publicly has an issue with on human rights, such as China.

Record-High Ratio of Americans in Prison

In addition to this, although the US has an embargo on imports produced by slavery and forced labour, the prisons are a manufacturing industry using prisoners as forced labour.

There is also a far higher percentage of the black population in prison than there is of the white.


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## terrib (Feb 11, 2011)

YouTube - I'm About to Whip Somebody's A**


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## alanmt (Feb 11, 2011)

Our drug laws are a big part of the problem.


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## Mike (Feb 11, 2011)

Baron said:


> In addition to this, although the US has an embargo on imports produced by slavery and forced labour, the prisons are a manufacturing industry using prisoners as *forced *labour.


 
Evidence to support this claim?


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## Baron (Feb 11, 2011)

Mike said:


> Evidence to support this claim?



[video=youtube;P96w48-tiYs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P96w48-tiYs[/video]

There is also the "three strikes and you're out" policy, which gives a completely disproportionate punishment to many repeat offenders that's on a par in severity with the British transporting petty criminals in the 18th and 19th centuries.


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## Mike (Feb 11, 2011)

Nowhere in that speech does it say the government uses forced labor.


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## Baron (Feb 11, 2011)

Mike said:


> Nowhere in that speech does it say the government uses forced labor.


 
Of course all those who are incarcerated donate their services voluntarily and without any coercion *ironic tone*.

The prison industry in the United States: big business or a new form of slavery?

Prison Labor, Slavery & Capitalism In Historical Perspective

[video=youtube;nPZed8af9RI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPZed8af9RI[/video]

You can also do a search of the Amnesty International site and find that they have been raising these issues for some time, with little publicity for rather obvious reasons.


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## Mike (Feb 11, 2011)

Oh, I'm sure the line is there, however fine, and AI has good reason to pursue the issue. By making the living conditions barely tolerable, 'coerced' labor - no matter how mundane - might be seen as a handy distraction..


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## The Backward OX (Feb 11, 2011)

[ot]





Baron said:


> There is also the "three strikes and you're out" policy, which gives a completely disproportionate punishment to many repeat offenders that's on a par in severity with the British transporting petty criminals in the 18th and 19th centuries.


On the other hand, look at the absolute gems of mankind that system has produced in the Antipodes; writers, artists, philosophers, even poets. Did I mention writers?
[/ot]


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## Baron (Feb 11, 2011)

The Backward OX said:


> [ot]
> On the other hand, look at the absolute gems of mankind that system has produced in the Antipodes; writers, artists, philosophers, even poets. Did I mention writers?
> [/ot]


 
Not to mention its one national hero, dressed in designer dustbin and bucket...


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## Baron (Feb 11, 2011)

Mike said:


> Oh, I'm sure the line is there, however fine, and AI has good reason to pursue the issue. By making the living conditions barely tolerable, 'coerced' labor - no matter how mundane - might be seen as a handy distraction..


 
If you read the article by Stephen Hartnett, at University of California-Berkeley, which I linked to in a previous post, he puts that in perspective.


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## Dudester (Feb 11, 2011)

Baron said:


> If you read the article by Stephen Hartnett, at University of California-Berkeley, which I linked to in a previous post, he puts that in perspective.



Berkely ? Let's see, close to the Napa vineyards and San Francisco, and oh yeah, the center of liberalism in the United States. 

Now, for a voice of reason.

Sam Houston State University, in Huntsville Texas, is one of the two premier criminal justice colleges in America. Huntsville is also home to ten prisons. In a survey taken of prisoners in 1989 and 2009, identical results were found. Those results were that prisoners had committed the same offense twenty times before they finally got caught (on average). If you've ever had your vehicle or home broken into, contemplate that twenty times number. 

So, prisoners are far from guilt less. The problem is that prisoners have a problem with control-they see something they like, they take it instead of work for it. As for the drug thing, for the dope smokers here, there is no such thing as a harmless or recreational drug. Lots of people get hooked on their first toke and down the road they're wondering why they're in custody-charged with a litany of crimes.


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## garza (Feb 11, 2011)

The U.S. prison population is a reflection of the deterioration of U.S. society and points toward further problems in the future. It's what an economist would call a 'leading indicator'. 

The drug addiction of the U.S. is causing problems all through Mexico, Central America, and South America. The drug wars of Mexico are spilling over into Guatemala and threatening Belize and the rest of the region, all because the U.S. cannot, or will not, control its hunger for drugs. 

The U.S. is trying to be the policeman for the world. Is there any moral basis for those efforts?


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## Dudester (Feb 12, 2011)

garza said:


> The U.S. prison population is a reflection of the deterioration of U.S. society and points toward further problems in the future. It's what an economist would call a 'leading indicator'.
> 
> The drug addiction of the U.S. is causing problems all through Mexico, Central America, and South America. The drug wars of Mexico are spilling over into Guatemala and threatening Belize and the rest of the region, all because the U.S. cannot, or will not, control its hunger for drugs.
> 
> The U.S. is trying to be the policeman for the world. Is there any moral basis for those efforts?


 
As to your question, I think I might go off topic on that (another thread ?). Suffice it to say that you do agree that the "recreational dug" users are financing wars in Mexico and points south. Drug users at another forum are 100% convinced that they're doing no one no harm, but then again they are limousine liberals who (unlike me) haven't seen a ghetto, don't know what one looks like, and they can't conceive of the all night stuff that goes on there (drug dealing, prostitution, crimes against children, etc.).


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## Edgewise (Feb 12, 2011)

alanmt said:


> Our drug laws are a big part of the problem.


 
Agreed.


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## TheFuhrer02 (Feb 12, 2011)

...

So judging from all the posts, I'm getting the hint that America should legalize currently-illegal drugs and then free those who are currently jailed?


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## JosephB (Feb 12, 2011)

Congressman Jones is a knucklehead. He's claiming that prison labor is taking textile jobs away from American workers, which is ridiculous, because all those jobs have long gone overseas. If the prisoners weren't doing them, someone in China would be -- not an American. Just another example of a politician grandstanding, so the folks at home think, "Gosh, he's for us, the American Worker!" Dumb.

Jones is probably all for the "get tough on crime" legislation and draconian drug laws that fill the prisons in the first place. Most politicians are, because no one wants to be seen as a softy. This is at the root of the rising prison population. Many of the people in prison shouldn't be there in the first place -- and once they're in, it's a good bet they'll wind up back in prison -- and it's mostly because of retarded politics.


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## Dudester (Feb 12, 2011)

JosephB said:


> Many of the people in prison shouldn't be there in the first place


 
I could introduce you to several thousand crime victims who would beg to differ with you. Let's start with the fourteen year old who was raped last week. Then there was the 91 year old whose house was burgled while she was tied up in bed. And I know, let's talk to the victims of Jeff Skilling, Bernie Madoff, and the relatives of the victims of Charlie Manson. 



JosephB said:


> and once they're in, it's a good bet they'll wind up back in prison -- and it's mostly because of retarded politics.


 
Like I pointed out, most prisoners did the deed twenty times before they got caught, so, I know, don't do the crime if you can't do the time. BTW, in today's world, you can't get a job in most places with a criminal record, so to the thug who sold dope to kids all day, drove to the strip club in a stolen car with an arm full of twenties-he deserves to rot in jail forever and ever. If he screws himself out of a future, that's his fault.


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## JosephB (Feb 12, 2011)

Dudester said:


> I could introduce you to several thousand crime victims who would beg to differ with you. Let's start with the fourteen year old who was raped last week. Then there was the 91 year old whose house was burgled while she was tied up in bed. And I know, let's talk to the victims of Jeff Skilling, Bernie Madoff, and the relatives of the victims of Charlie Manson.



 Yeah, that’s what I’m suggesting – let all the rapists, people who tie up old ladies and mass murderers out of prison. The sooner the better. And let's not forget the people who steal millions and leave their victims destitute.

  This is why I sometimes don’t want to even bother posting here. I said, many not _all._ I’m talking mostly about drug users and people who commit non-violent crimes who are serving inordinately long prison sentences -- not rapists or people who tie up old ladies etc. I thought it would be obvious I wasn't talking about the worse kind of offenders -- but I guess not.

 We need to decriminalize and/or reduce sentences for drug use, shorten sentences for non-violent crimes, use alternative punishments, eliminate some mandatory sentencing and give judges more leeway, provide meaningful job and support programs for released inmates, and make it easier to expunge the records of non-violent offenders.

  Or we can just keep doing what we’re doing – and continuing growing and pouring money into a failing system that breeds more hardened and violent criminals.


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## Baron (Feb 12, 2011)

Dudester said:


> I could introduce you to several thousand crime victims who would beg to differ with you. Let's start with the fourteen year old who was raped last week. Then there was the 91 year old whose house was burgled while she was tied up in bed. And I know, let's talk to the victims of Jeff Skilling, Bernie Madoff, and the relatives of the victims of Charlie Manson.
> 
> 
> 
> Like I pointed out, most prisoners did the deed twenty times before they got caught, so, I know, don't do the crime if you can't do the time. BTW, in today's world, you can't get a job in most places with a criminal record, so to the thug who sold dope to kids all day, drove to the strip club in a stolen car with an arm full of twenties-he deserves to rot in jail forever and ever. If he screws himself out of a future, that's his fault.


 Such a sweeping generalization in perspective; lacking any ability to realize the meaning of justice in application, assuming that the justice system only ever gets the worse offenders.  Yours is the kind of thinking that's provoked every Christian reform since the seventeenth century.


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## alanmt (Feb 12, 2011)

dudester, most civilized nations moved past any form of vendetta law - including letting the victim choose the perpetrator's punishment, centuries ago. It is the interest of the state that is paramount in the prosecution and punishment of criminals, not the interest of the victims, This is not to say that there is no community or overlapping of interest between the state and the victim; there is. But victims have too subjective of a mindset to act in the best interests of the state as a matter of policy.


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## alanmt (Feb 12, 2011)

I am a former prosecutor, btw, although I don't think being a member of the system is any prerequisite to participating in the policy discussion.  The War on Drugs, like virtually every governmental effort entitled The War on _______, which is not actually a war against a soveriegn foreign nation, has been a big failure. I favor a revision of the drug laws and stricter nonincarceration penalties for serious minor offenses, like forfieture of one's vehicle for multiple DUIs, driving without a license or insurance.


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## Writ-with-Hand (Feb 12, 2011)

I knew a lot of people have been in prison - black males of my generation and younger - because I personally know a good number of them. But even I was surprised by the percentage of black males 18 to about 40 or 45 years of age that have felony convictions when I did paid, temporary work registering people to vote 2 or so years ago. Partly in my own neighborhood. I would say about 98% of those males were telling me either they were "on paper" (parole/probation) for a felony or they simply had a felony conviction with all time served.

In Wisconsin felons can vote with the exception of those on "paper" (parole). 

Sociologically I think the rate of incarceration - racially and non-racially - has a number of layers to it. But I think you are correct Baron in essentially the question you pose. The U.S. Constitution essentially forbids holding someone hostage and using them for slave labor (many slave have historically received wages too) except in the case of convicted criminals. 

I believe - if I'm remembering correctly - prior to the 1960's U.S. prison were overwhelmingly populated by White-American males. This changed after the 1960's. Part of it I think has to do with "institutional racism" (e.g., gentrification, shit in where businesses develop, "white flight," sentencing in courts). Racism itself is not about hatred. Many racist whites and mixed-race peoples throughout Latin America have great affection for their black, grandmotherly, domestic servants. Racism as an institution dating back to the 1400's has more to do with power. It's a caste system like in India - just a lot less antagonistic today in the U.S. and in Latin America than in India.

But there are non-racist variables as well. Some of it might be attributed to the former AFDC program (a past welfare program) that mandated no man be in the home. Many suggest this accelerated the decline of the black family among low-income people. I'm one of those that buy into that theory. I think in 1960 about 60% or more of Black-American women were married. And marriage itself often has economic correlations such as household income. The Crips, Bloods, Vice Lords, and Gangster Dicisples (aka Growth & Development) all had their major rises - some may have earlier origins - in the 1960's. Hands down the gospel of Larry Hoover and the GD's won out among my generation over the gospel of Christ or Martin Luther King. And MLK is a White-American icon. Few to no black males of my generation - not in the Midwest at least - marvel over him or find him more remarkable than Larry Hoover, the bringer of all salvation and true "ethics."

The U.S. prison system itself is probably - culturally - part of the problem. I think it creates better criminals and is a revenge based punishment system. But at least it's better than the prisons of the 1800's and early 1900's. They were worse than what most of those incarcerated in the European Inquisition experienced. 

Ultimately, with a felony conviction I'm not sure how "free" one is. Like U.S. lottery winners you have exceptions to the rule. But as a rule thumb ex-convicts are shut out of high income professions and those colleges and schools on universities that pipeline people into those professions. At minimum, felony convictions create obstacles within the mainstream socio-economic world. 



terrib said:


> YouTube - I'm About to Whip Somebody's A**



:lol: That was awesome. I bookmarked it.


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## Writ-with-Hand (Feb 12, 2011)

Mike said:


> Nowhere in that speech does it say the government uses forced labor.



I know people in prison and it various things cost money in prison. Things like shampoo and soap. You can go to school in prison too. One of my friends is currently. But depending on the prison that requires money. Usually family members might send the needed funds.


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## Writ-with-Hand (Feb 12, 2011)

Baron said:


> Of course all those who are incarcerated donate their services voluntarily and without any coercion *ironic tone*.
> 
> The prison industry in the United States: big business or a new form of slavery?
> 
> ...



LOL. The baseball thing is true. So far as I know anyways. I've asked people in the past where the moral or ethical code of "Three strikes and you're out" comes from. No one has been able to tell me. To my best guess it's based off of American baseball. 

In other words... we use a rule from the sport of baseball to determine the rest of defendants (people) lives. It would be sad if it was not so absurd. LOL.


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## Writ-with-Hand (Feb 12, 2011)

Dudester said:


> Lots of people get hooked on their first toke and down the road they're wondering why they're in custody-charged with a litany of crimes.



Maybe it depends on the drug and its affects. I don't know a lot about crystal meth. I know it devastates many people. Turns some women into unattractive looking things to.

Most drug addicts - that I know of - are not out stealing or mugging people. They are a minority of drug addicts. Most crack addicts certainly are not engaged in that. Quite a number might have stolen from family members once or more times but even a petty theft of $20 dollars from a sibling or relative does not require criminal prosecution for amendment and resolution. Most crack addicts are in fact engaged in selling off their own property and persons.

The typical "jacker" in the city is a thug that is usually (not always) not addicted to drugs. I know and known some of them. One of them in his early 20's used to sell crack cocaine. He lived around the corner from me and walked away from a murder charge after shooting a cat in the head in broad daylight right around the corner from me. He was gunned down him self (mortally) last year in what was seemingly meant as an assassination or murder from passion. I'm gathering that since he was shot 7 or more times. But he was involved - I'm told - in a series of strong armed robberies in this neighborhood with a group of others.


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## Writ-with-Hand (Feb 12, 2011)

Dudester said:


> As to your question, I think I might go off topic on that (another thread ?). Suffice it to say that you do agree that the "recreational dug" users are financing wars in Mexico and points south. Drug users at another forum are 100% convinced that they're doing no one no harm, but then again they are limousine liberals who (unlike me) haven't seen a ghetto, don't know what one looks like, and they can't conceive of the all night stuff that goes on there (drug dealing, prostitution, crimes against children, etc.).



Garza and Dudester, drug addicts in the U.S. are not simply reduced to causing the problems in Mexico and else where. First of all, Brazil is the second largest consumer of cocaine in the world. Where do you suppose Brazil receives that cocaine from? Any drug gang violence in Brazil? Mexico has its own internal drug market. The Mexican middle-class notoriously consumes so much cocaine it could financially support millionaires drug dealers from a domestic market alone. And the new violence in Mexico revolving around meth has a well established domestic market - and Mexican drug gangs are killing one another in territorial fights over that domestic market.

Violence accompanied prohibition too. Mexico, Brazil, the U.S. and other could end these wars over drug profits virtually over night by legalizing drugs. Furthermore, the Mexican cartels purchase most their killing machines (machine guns and firearms) from the United States. Hear any conservatives blaming the U.S. weapons industry for murder and mayhem in Mexico and the United States? No. The popular refrain is "Guns don't kill, people kill." Free will right?

Well here's a little free will for ya, "Drug addicts in Milwaukee and Detroit don't kill drug cartel soldiers and government employees in Mexico, drug cartel soldiers kill drug cartel soldiers and government employees in Mexico." 

Mexican drug cartels even employ Latino gang bangers from California (considering them better soldiers and assassins than many Mexican raised young youth) as muscle and assassins in Mexico. No black crackhead in Chicago made some Mexican-American from San Diego cross the boarder to Mexico and torture and gun down people for high pay from Mexican cartel organizations. And I - as a crackhead - didn't create MS-13 or the Crips. I don't care if they're overseas. They existed before I did. Just like the American mafia, the Jewish Purple Gang of Detroit, and the Irish thugs that came out of the Bridgeport neighborhood of Chicago. They legalized gambling in Las Vegas and Detroit didn't they? There's an Indian Casino sitting in the middle of Milwaukee. Gambling and booze bad? So is heroine and cocaine. Except U.S. allies in Afghanistan are involved in exporting heroin around the world. So, you might call heroine addicts patriots of the U.S. "War on Terror."


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## garza (Feb 12, 2011)

writ-with-hand - Cocaine going to Brazil does not pass through Central America. Look at a map.

The violence in Northern Mexico is not a result of Mexico's domestic consumption of cocaine, but is a war being fought over control of the supply to the U.S.

The battle over the Mexican domestic meth market is a separate issue and has little or no impact outside Mexico. 

At least one drug gang from northern Mexico reportedly has established a presence in Guatemala. Two villages are now said to be under the control of the Mexicans, and thus far Guatemalan security forces have been unable to drive them out. The Mexicans are there to facilitate the movement of Cocaine to the U.S. Many of the shipments are dropped off in the sea just offshore of Belize, picked up by Guatemalans, and delivered to Mexican traffickers. One of the favourite places to drop the drugs is a couple of miles from my house. I dare not walk the road to Corozal Town except in the middle of the day, and even then it's a risk.

You don't intend it, I'm sure, but you sound like an apologist for the U.S. drug market. Come live in Central America. I don't mean visit for a week or two. Come here and live and get to know the people who are part of the pipeline that runs from Colombia and Bolivia to the U.S. Talk with DEA agents and officers in the security forces of El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, and Belize. We have to live with your drug problem.


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## The Backward OX (Feb 12, 2011)

garza said:


> Two villages are now said to be under the control of the Mexicans, and thus far Guatemalan security forces have been unable to drive them out.


Sounds like a job for Brynner, McQueen, Bronson, Coburn and three others.


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## Writ-with-Hand (Feb 12, 2011)

garza said:


> writ-with-hand - Cocaine going to Brazil does not pass through Central America. Look at a map.



So be it. But I still hazard a guess that most the cocaine entering into Brazil comes from Peru and Colombia.



> The violence in Northern Mexico is not a result of Mexico's domestic consumption of cocaine, but is a war being fought over control of the supply to the U.S.


And? Mexican drug dealers and cartel men, not to mention Nigerians, Jamaicans, and others (including U.S. natives) murder each other in the U.S., I should give an extra f___ why?

And Mexico has its own domestic market for cocaine. One larger enough to enrich any ambitious Mexican drug dealer. That ambitious Mexicans and Colombians sought the advantages of exporting their product to the richest nation in the world (like say... Honda) to increase their wealth, does not translate into me causing or other cocaine addicts causing others to wreck mayhem around the world. No more than all the people on earth buying fuel from the Middle East making the responsible for jihadist suicide bombers. 



> The battle over the Mexican domestic meth market is a separate issue and has little or no impact outside Mexico.


No, it shows violence over potential profits would still occur in Mexico without a U.S. market. 



> At least one drug gang from northern Mexico reportedly has established a presence in Guatemala. Two villages are now said to be under the control of the Mexicans, and thus far Guatemalan security forces have been unable to drive them out. The Mexicans are there to facilitate the movement of Cocaine to the U.S. Many of the shipments are dropped off in the sea just offshore of Belize, picked up by Guatemalans, and delivered to Mexican traffickers. One of the favourite places to drop the drugs is a couple of miles from my house. I dare not walk the road to Corozal Town except in the middle of the day, and even then it's a risk.
> 
> You don't intend it, I'm sure, but you sound like an apologist for the U.S. drug market. Come live in Central America. I don't mean visit for a week or two. Come here and live and get to know the people who are part of the pipeline that runs from Colombia and Bolivia to the U.S. Talk with DEA agents and officers in the security forces of El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, and Belize. We have to live with your drug problem.


I don't care. No more than I care to talk to family members of all the Black-American males gunned down with American, Russian, and Chinese made weapons. 

Cocaine - like fuel or alcohol - sales. Legalize it. Mexico, the U.S., and others can do it. Crack addiction defies economic law about consumption. According to this "law" the more one consumes a product (say... hamburgers or soda), increasingly the less one wants of the same product. You eat three burgers your less likely to want a 4th and so on. No amount of crack rocks is enough. Not 10, 20, 60, 80. In other words no one - short of the return of Christ - is going to stop cocaine market. A market increasingly expanding. As Latin American countries economies grow I'm certain with disposable income cocaine dealers will increasingly target their domestic markets.   

Legalize it and maybe stores and corporations will use the courts to settle disputes rather than "Chicago Typewriters" (Tommy-guns) like the Chicago mob over bottles of alcohol and numbers running. I don't see casinos sending goons all over the U.S. to slit peoples throats and behead their children over addicted gamblers failing to pay debts. No, they use the courts to clear out peoples bank accounts etc.


All those names on the wall are of the murder victims in Philly I believe - in year 2006 alone I believe. Almost all of them are Black-American males I'll hazard to guess. A good number of them were killed over drug wars/disputes on the streets of Philly too I'm sure. I should give a flying rats %$# why? You think anyone gives two cares if I end up bound to a chair and burned and hacked to death by some low-level drug dealer that I failed to pay? No. Anyone care if my life is self-destructed? No. In response here's my feeling. If three cats are walking at you (plural you) with assault rifles, draw your weapon and kill them first. If you don't, I don't give a ___. You should have been smarter, faster, tougher. Whatever.


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## garza (Feb 12, 2011)

The statement 'We have to live with your drug problem' is true. Your answer that you don't care is disheartening. 

More and more that attitude is demonstrated by people in the developed nations of the world. You do not care, and the only positive comment I can make is that you admit it while so many do not.


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## The Backward OX (Feb 12, 2011)

Caring is a state of mind. I'd like to see how 'caring' per se can make any difference.


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## garza (Feb 12, 2011)

It makes a great deal of difference. If the people of the developed world genuinely cared about the conditions in so many of the developing countries, especially the ACP (African, Caribbean, Pacific Group of States), they would be more likely to pressure their governments to avoid the policies that keep those states 'developing' and never allow them to develop. Allowing the nation states of Africa, the Caribbean, and the Pacific to develop so the quality of life for the people in those nations could be improved might lessen the profits of the international corporations, and that will never happen without a fight.  

If the people in the rich nations of the north could control their appetite for narcotics then the farmers of Bolivia and Colombia could go back to growing coffee.

If the politicians of the Group of Seven could find the nerve to pull the plug on the massive use of illegal drugs in their countries then the violence of the drug trade that threatens all of us in its path could be controlled. 

To care about something or someone is the first step toward taking action to correct a problem. It comes as no surprise that someone from the Far Frozen North has an 'I don't care' attitude. Gimme mine, gimme mine, gimme gimme gimme mine, and the heck with you is the national anthem now.

Also it's no surprise that someone from Up There has fuzzy ideas about what relates to what and even fuzzier notions about the geography of America, but that's not important. After more than half a century of watching and writing about the goings on of people on four continents, there are many little irritations such as those which no longer seem important at all.

Only people are important, and it's the quality of life of the people in my village, my nation, my world, that I care about.


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## Dudester (Feb 12, 2011)

JosephB said:


> Yeah, that’s what I’m suggesting – let all the rapists, people who tie up old ladies and mass murderers out of prison. The sooner the better. And let's not forget the people who steal millions and leave their victims destitute.



Sarcasm fails you.




JosephB said:


> This is why I sometimes don’t want to even bother posting here. I said, many not _all._ I’m talking mostly about drug users and people who commit non-violent crimes who are serving inordinately long prison sentences -- not rapists or people who tie up old ladies etc. I thought it would be obvious I wasn't talking about the worse kind of offenders -- but I guess not.


 
Somehow, you're under the impression that prisons are overcrowded with first time non violent offenders. You really should spend time in the courts and see the rap sheets of those who actually go to prison. If you did that, you would find, to your great shock, that those sent to prison have done repeated small stints in county lockups and that they'd failed probation time and again. You very rarely go to prison on first time offenses. Over 90% are seasoned offenders.





JosephB said:


> We need to decriminalize and/or reduce sentences for drug use, shorten sentences for non-violent crimes, use alternative punishments, eliminate some mandatory sentencing and give judges more leeway, provide meaningful job and support programs for released inmates, and make it easier to expunge the records of non-violent offenders.



I think you're under the impression that prisons are filled with people who had one tiny joint in their pocket. It boggles my mind how uninformed you are. In 2009 I dated a woman who tried to keep a secret from me-she'd been caught with forty gallons of (controlled substance) cough syrup. She avoided prison because she had no priors and a very good lawyer. Forty gallons is a far cry from one joint. She's on probation for the next five years.  



JosephB said:


> Or we can just keep doing what we’re doing – and continuing growing and pouring money into a failing system that breeds more hardened and violent criminals.


 
Once again, we come to the opinion of someone who thinks buying "recreational drugs" is a victimless crime. 



Baron said:


> Such a sweeping generalization in perspective; lacking any ability to realize the meaning of justice in application, assuming that the justice system only ever gets the worse offenders. Yours is the kind of thinking that's provoked every Christian reform since the seventeenth century.




I have a bachelor's degree in Constitutional Law and ten years on the street experience as a cop. I gather your knowledge of the criminal justice system comes from........



alanmt said:


> I am a former prosecutor


 
Then you know that the system is filed with repeat offenders and first, second, and third offenders are often released with just a fine and perhaps probation.



alanmt said:


> It is the interest of the state that is paramount in the prosecution and punishment of criminals, not the interest of the victims, This is not to say that there is no community or overlapping of interest between the state and the victim; there is. But victims have too subjective of a mindset to act in the best interests of the state as a matter of policy.




Laws are passed by legislators. Legislators are elected by people, some of them are crime victims. Did you ever consult with a crime victim ? Look into the eyes of a frightened rape victim ? (I have) Or, perhaps a couple who worked their way through college, only to have their hard worked for items stolen ? Or perhaps, a little old lady who had her monthly fixed income (worrying about paying her rent, etc.) stolen by a much bigger and younger thug ?

I've met prosecutors who care a lot more about offenders than crime victims. Are you one of them ?



writ said:


> even I was surprised by the percentage of black males 18 to about 40 or 45 years of age that have felony convictions




I grew up, literally, in dirt poor conditions (I have pictures to prove it). I ovecame dirt poor poverty, lots of people have. A number of young males (different races) are in love with the ghetto culture. Because they choose not to overcome their situation, they doom themselves.


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## alanmt (Feb 12, 2011)

Dudester said:


> Did you ever consult with a crime victim ?
> 
> *Yes. I have also been a crime victim.*
> 
> ...


 
With all due respect, it seems to me that your perspective is too narrow and rigid and emotional to be a proper basis for legislative policy decisions in this area, although your voice is one of many that deserves to be heard by those who do make policy.


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## JosephB (Feb 12, 2011)

Dudester, I never said or even implied that prisons are overcrowded with first time non-violent offenders or people who were busted with a single joint. And I never said or even implied that buying "recreational drugs" is a victimless crime. Where are you getting this stuff? Why don't you address what I actually said instead of making stuff up?

What I am saying is that reducing sentences for some drug offenses and providing support for inmates after their release reduces prison populations, lowers recidivism and doesn't increase crime. That shows "get tough on crime" policies and draconian, mandatory sentences for drug offenses don't work. That was my original point and response to the OP. Now, despite how misinformed I am, I'll provide some information that supports what I'm saying:

_"Downscaling Prisons: Lessons from Four States," released by Justice Strategies and The Sentencing Project, finds that four states - Kansas, Michigan, New Jersey, and New York - have reduced their prison populations by 5-20% since 1999 without any increases in crime.  

"Michigan - Eliminated most mandatory minimum sentences for drug offenses; enacted statewide initiative to reduce parole revocations and enhance employment, housing, and treatment services for people leaving prison." _

The Sentencing Project News - New Reports Authored by The Sentencing Project Find Trend in Reform Policies, Prison Downsizing

_
"Faced with yawning budget gaps and high unemployment, California, Michigan, New York and several other states are attacking both problems with a surprising strategy: helping ex-convicts find jobs to keep them from ending up back in prison. The approach is backed by prisoner advocates as well as liberal and conservative government officials, who say it pays off in cold, hard numbers. " 

"Through vigorous job placement programs and prudent use of parole, state officials say they have cut the prison population by 7,500, or about 15 percent, over the last four years, yielding more than $200 million in annual savings." _

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/business/25offender.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1


Sorry, I don't have any stories about women I've dated.


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## Writ-with-Hand (Feb 12, 2011)

garza said:


> The statement 'We have to live with your drug  problem' is true. Your answer that you don't care is disheartening.
> 
> More  and more that attitude is demonstrated by people in the developed  nations of the world. You do not care, and the only positive comment I  can make is that you admit it while so many do not.



Look, garza, you are world traveled, spent years in journalism and in war zones, and you've personally helped many children gain and education and others to eat regularly. So, I know you're neither a stupid man nor one with malicious intents. I think you are fundamentally a good man - irrespective of your atheism.

I also don't wish hardship or violence on people in Belize, Colombia, or Mexico.

But this is something we are not going to agree on. I'm simply not going to be suckered into feeling guilty and responsible for all the mayhem greedy men and women around the world commit. 

And I'm looking at this as someone that was a petty street level drug dealer once, that was not a crack user, but sold crack and powder to users. I had clients that smoked, sniffed, and "banged" cocaine in their veins. And I'm looking at this as someone that eventually started using cocaine (powder then crack) and became addicted. I recall one time in particular looking at the eyes, the stare, of one man in a group of many watch the powder cocaine I sold one of them being cooked up in a spoon. I asked myself, "What is it that makes these people want that stuff so bad?"

As a former seller and now addict I know for a fact people that sell cocaine *have more choice than those that are addicted to it. *And no ones going to convince me otherwise. 

That cat I spoke about that killed a dude and was shot to death later himself, I bought crack from him more than once. One of the few cats in the city selling nickle bags ($5.00). His stuff was quality too. Better quality than many of these cats dime bags and $20 bags. But I didn't make that cat go out robbing people at gun point. I'm the crackhead and according to suburban stereotype I'm suppose to be the one doing that. But thugs abide by thug ethos and do thug stuff. They drive cars too - even when they do drive-bys - I don't see anyone blaming gas stations, oil companies, or car dealerships for selling cars to these cats. But some people want to point fingers at crack addicts. 

How about this: I'm as guilty as everyone in the world addicted to fossil fuel for all the maimed American and British soldiers returning from Iraq and all the maimed children in Iraq? 



garza said:


> If the people in the rich nations of the north could control their appetite for narcotics then the farmers of Bolivia and Colombia could go back to growing coffee.
> 
> If the politicians of the Group of Seven could find the nerve to pull the plug on the massive use of illegal drugs in their countries then the violence of the drug trade that threatens all of us in its path could be controlled.
> 
> To care about something or someone is the first step toward taking action to correct a problem. It comes as no surprise that someone from the Far Frozen North has an 'I don't care' attitude. *Gimme mine, gimme mine, gimme gimme gimme mine,* and the heck with you is the national anthem now.



Yes, that is an attitude many of us have in the U.S.

But contrary to your belief *drug dealers* have that attitude more than anyone. At least the typical drug dealer. I've never been a mid-level or high-level drug dealer but I imagine they're no better than the petty street level dealers. And from my experience the average drug dealer (not all of them) are the *the most greedy* people on earth. Lots of money is not enough. They want more.

Those Mexican Cartel members aren't battling over the chump change I was making selling crack and powder (I made about $300 a week in profit after overhead). They are not even battling over $10 million dollars. $100 million isn't enough for those greedy bastards. *They want it all.* Nor do they give a flying f____ if I f____ my life up with their product. Nor do the mules. Cocaine doesn't grow here - it was already in the U.S. during my birth and during my childhood in the 80's - and so far as I know poor people in the U.S. did not make a collect call to Colombia and Peru and request them cats to ship tons of cocaine up here. Cocaine was a part of my world and neighborhood and I never went to Mexico or Colombia to buy it. 

I could sell powder cocaine to a relatively small, but well-to-do clientele in Mexico and be perfectly happy with earning the equivalent of U.S.$70,000 a year from it. I'd be head-over-heels if I could earn one or two million. The need to murder and kill politicians so I can carve out greater territory and earn $60 million or $100 million or $1 billion? That's not me or the average crack addict in the U.S., but that is the "gimme gimme gimme mine" Mexican drug dealers in Mexico. 

In fact I gave up a spot (I use to sell out of a couples rented upstairs duplex and give them crack in exchange) on the South side of Milwaukee after the Latin Kings found out "Some black cats from the North side" was selling in their territory. Lucky I showed up that particular night with one of my guys and had him holding my pistol. Two LK's were waiting for me inside the house. No beef started and I think we understood each other. I'm not greedy cats. I'll give up a house keep my clients on the South side by phone and still make money. I might give up a small part of my profit but in the risk/benefit ratio is murder, gun fire, and possible prison sentencing worth it? 

No one in Belize, Mexico, or Colombia has to do a f___ thing. They can go to the Virgin Mary and she'd tell them to stay out the drug trade. So, I'm not going to accept blame because they want to make attractive money.

Same for DEA. Resign. What part of the Drug Enforcement Agency you don't like? I didn't force you into it.


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## Writ-with-Hand (Feb 12, 2011)

As an FYI: thanks to the Milwaukee Public Library system I have access to a good number of movies from all around the world. http://countycat.mcfls.org/search~S39?/dforeign+films/dforeign+films/51%2C106%2C3573%2CB/browse/indexsort=-

I watched this Mexican movie some time ago. The characters in the movie spend half or 90% of the time snorting up Peru. They do more cocaine in one day than I'll probably do in half a year. I never had customers with the kind of money these Mexicans in this movie had. And none of my customers bought the quantity these well-to-do young Mexicans did in the flick. My point being the Mexican Cartel is greedy. Period. That's the problem - not impoverished drug addicts in Cleveland while Mexicans snorting up the country of Peru get card free from any social responsibility in Mexico.

Amazon.com: Asi del Precipicio: Ana de la Reguera, Miguel Rodarte, Martha Higareda, Gabriela Platas, Ingrid Martz, Daniel Vives, Ana Chiocceti, Alejandro Nones, Silvia Carrusillo, Rafael Amaya, Teresa Suarez: Movies & TV






Not to mention if I acted as crazy in public as they well off Mexicans did in Mexico, in the U.S. they throw my black ___ in jail. Driving crazy ass ___, shooting guns off, high as the moon. 

Here's the trailer: YouTube - Así Del Precipicio - Trailer

I can't afford to hire and pay middle-class thugs from Texas to come to Milwaukee, torture, kill and dismember people but the Mexican Cartels can. They can't be too poor. Like they're fighting over a bowl tomato soup along with a slice of peasants bread. 

FoxNews.com - Video: Captured Mexican Drug Lord Knew Top Capos



> MEXICO CITY -- A former Texas high school  football player and petty street dealer who allegedly rose to become one  of Mexico's most savage assassins says he personally knew the country's  top drug lords and shipped cocaine from Colombia through Panama.
> 
> In a video released by Mexico's federal  police, Edgar Valdez Villarreal, known as "the Barbie" for his fair  complexion and green eyes, also told his interrogators that he  transported cash hidden in trailers.
> 
> ...


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## Writ-with-Hand (Feb 12, 2011)

And living in Milwaukee I did not make these nuts in L.A. cross over to Mexico and gun down a Roman Catholic Cardinal.

2 San Diego Suspects in Cardinal's Slaying Ordered Extradited - Los Angeles Times



> SAN DIEGO — A federal judge ruled Monday that two San Diego street  gang members accused of working as hired guns for a Mexican drug cartel  should be extradited to Mexico to stand trial for the slaying last year  of the Roman Catholic cardinal of Guadalajara.
> 
> The two suspects  belong to the 30th Street gang, which became embroiled in one of the  most notorious recent crimes in Mexico: a shootout at the Guadalajara  airport in May, 1993, that killed Cardinal Juan Jesus Posadas Ocampo and  six others.





> About 30 young gang members entered into an unprecedented cross-border  alliance with the Arellano drug cartel of Tijuana, working as bodyguards  and assassins in a war for control of the northwest Mexican border  area, according to law enforcement officials in both countries. Eight  gang members have been arrested, and one died last year in a Guadalajara  prison under mysterious circumstances.


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## garza (Feb 13, 2011)

writ-with-hand - Now that you've painted a fuller picture of who you are and where you're coming from, I can understand and have more respect for you and for your ideas and attitudes. As you say, you and I will never agree on some of the basic issues - our origins and experiences are worlds apart. I've lived among drug addicts and dealers, but I've never been one. My point-of-view has always been one of the observer standing a bit to one side; watching, listening, recording, reporting. You are a participant. You see the world of drugs from the inside while I see it from the outside. 

So from where you are, what _should_ be done, and, more important, what _can_ be done?


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## Dudester (Feb 13, 2011)

JosephB said:


> Dudester, I never said or even implied that prisons are overcrowded with first time non-violent offenders or people who were busted with a single joint. And I never said or even implied that buying "recreational drugs" is a victimless crime. Where are you getting this stuff? Why don't you address what I actually said instead of making stuff uphttp://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/business/25offender.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1.


 
Your basis of experience is that you read New York Times articles. My basis of experience is as a foot soldier out there on the front lines. You should have to deal with crime victims who get screwed twice-first by the criminal who takes from them, and then the system which forgets all about the victims. 

You speak of treatment programs-you should see the number of arrests made where the suspect says "I'm in a treatment program, I'm not supposed to be walking around with ______ in my pocket."

_"Michigan - Eliminated most mandatory minimum sentences for drug offenses; enacted statewide initiative to reduce parole revocations and enhance employment, housing, and treatment services for people leaving prison." _

Last I heard, Detroit was broke, corrupt, broken down, and pretty much surrendered to the criminals. 

_"Faced with yawning budget gaps and high unemployment, California, Michigan, New York and several other states are attacking blah blah_

Taxpayers and home owners are fleeing California, Michigan, and New York. They're tired of the high taxes, corruption, and rampant crime. Michigan and New York lost seats in Congress because of population changes (Texas, which has a get tough approach on crime, gained four seats).

The New York Times isn't the best source to reach into. 

BTW, you should do some voluteerism, like me, and work in homeless ministries and attend crime victim support group meetings. Tell the crime victims that they should put aside their feelings for the better good. 





JosephB said:


> Sorry, I don't have any stories about women I've dated.


 
I was trying to make a point that a first time offender with a car load of product is walking about free, while busting the myth that Timmy was sent to Sing Sing for thirty years because he had a joint in his pocket.


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## Baron (Feb 13, 2011)

Dudester, I've worked in homeless and prison ministries and it seems the difference between you and I is that I believe in rehabilitation rather than retribution.  I'm certainly not convinced or impressed by the "Dirty Harry" approach to law enforcement.

It seems to me that the nation that sees itself as the great expounder of freedom and democracy really needs to clean out its own backyard a little.  The fact that the American penal system is unbalanced, disproportionate and exploitive is really no great indicator that the US is in a position to make reasonable moral judgments about other nations.


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## AncientCWS (Feb 13, 2011)

Dudester said:


> So, prisoners are far from guilt less. The problem is that prisoners have a problem with control-they see something they like, they take it instead of work for it. As for the drug thing, for the dope smokers here, there is no such thing as a harmless or recreational drug. Lots of people get hooked on their first toke and down the road they're wondering why they're in custody-charged with a litany of crimes.



As someone whose been to jail (three years ago, and it straightened me right up), I'd have to argue with this a bit.  I met quite a few guilt less (well, as far as what they were charged for), folk behind those bars.  I live in VA, so things might be a little different down in TX, so excuse me if I'm going a bit off kilter.  Here, they lock a man up on his 3rd unpaid child support bill.  Now, I definitely don't support deadbeat dads, and certainly most people locked up for not paying deserve it... but I met three or four upstanding guys who had a good history of paying, and taking care of their children.  With the recent economic ugliness, they lost their jobs, and could not pay the full payment.  Jail time.  Instantly.  I can't approve of that.

You say that there is no such thing as a harmless and recreational drug, and I must argue here as well, sir.  I do agree with you that no drug is harmless, but ALL drugs are recreational.  People do it to have a good time and feel good.  The same reason kids in elementary have recess.  This in fact was the cause of my jailing.  One of our friendly cops pulled me over when I had longer hair and immediately searched.  Mind you, I've never driven inebriated from any source, and had never smoked within my car.  There was no reason and no probable cause.  Turns out, having a dimebag (read: one gram) of pot on me was quite costly.  Nearly 700$ in court fines, three months of classes that were absolute crap from someone who had no clue of what they were speaking, and eventually, jail time.  I'd have to say my part overall was harmless however, it was home-grown stuff from myself, so I wasn't inadvertently funding a terrorist organization or anything like that.  

I must add that we probably have extremely different views anyway.  Up in here in VA we hear about how crazy strict laws are down your way.  I can feel for that man.  VA is a commonwealth, and bible-belt territory too.  Makes one wonder.


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## JosephB (Feb 13, 2011)

Dudester said:


> Your basis of experience is that you read New York Times articles. My basis of experience is as a foot soldier out there on the front lines. You should have to deal with crime victims who get screwed twice-first by the criminal who takes from them, and then the system which forgets all about the victims.


 
  The article supports my opinion. The information I provided shows how we can reduce prison populations without an increase in crime -- and spend fewer taxpayer dollars in the process. 

  Again, what you’re missing is that there is_ no increase in crime _in the states mentioned – so what does any of this have to do with screwing crime victims? Nothing. It’s just an emotional argument that is completely beside the point. 

  I appreciate that you’ve been on the front line, but you have yet to show why I’m wrong about any of this based on your experience, or why it’s a good idea to keep throwing more and more people in prison if there are viable, cost-effective alternatives.



Dudester said:


> You speak of treatment programs-you should see the number of arrests made where the suspect says "I'm in a treatment program, I'm not supposed to be walking around with ______ in my pocket."


 
  Actually, I didn’t speak of treatment -- it was just one of the aspects of the programs adopted in Michigan. Requiring treatment is usually not very effective, however the people who want to get clean and sober will benefit, so it makes sense to expose people to treatment programs by making them mandatory.



Dudester said:


> Last I heard, Detroit was broke, corrupt, broken down, and pretty much surrendered to the criminals.


 
  Irrelevant. I didn’t claim that policies that reduce prison populations reduce crime – although there is reason to believe they might over time. What I’ve shown is that there are ways to reduce prison populations _that don't increase crime._ 



Dudester said:


> Taxpayers and homeowners are fleeing California, Michigan, and New York. They're tired of the high taxes, corruption, and rampant crime. Michigan and New York lost seats in Congress because of population changes (Texas, which has a get tough approach on crime, gained four seats).


 
  Again, beside the point – because the policies I’ve shown you reduce costs and they don’t lead to higher crime rates. Sure, there are lots of policies in these states that result in higher taxes and an eroding taxpayer base -- but these aren’t among them. So what you’re saying is irrelevant. 

  The “blah blah blah” is about how these states are dealing with budget gaps -- and one of them is adopting policies that help keep people out of prison. Do they work for all inmates? Of course not. But the idea is to have programs in place for the people who want to change – or who might be on the edge -- especially if they are cost effective in the long run. 

  And I haven’t taken the time to look closely at all the statistics, but what I’ve seen doesn’t show me that the Texas “get tough approach on crime” is very effective in reducing crime rates in comparison to other states. Take a look for yourself: 

Corrections Statistics for the State of Texas



Dudester said:


> The New York Times isn't the best source to reach into.


 
  OK. Refute the information in the article and explain exactly how these programs don’t work or reduce costs.



Dudester said:


> BTW, you should do some voluteerism, like me, and work in homeless ministries and attend crime victim support group meetings. Tell the crime victims that they should put aside their feelings for the better good.


 
  It’s an absurd assumption that I don’t “do some voluteerism.” I’ve worked extensively with the homeless through my church, which is in the heart of the inner city – with one of the largest homeless ministries in the area. I’m also involved in other community-based programs including ministries for addicts and the mentally ill  -- but that has nothing to do with any of this.

  Nor does any of this have a thing to do with crime victims putting aside their feelings -- and unless you’re suggesting we lock away for life everyone who commits a crime, it’s just another emotional argument.



Dudester said:


> I was trying to make a point that a first time offender with a car load of product is walking about free, while busting the myth that Timmy was sent to Sing Sing for thirty years because he had a joint in his pocket.


 
  Yes, I know what you were _trying_ to do. Once again, I said nothing about people going to prison for carrying a joint. You made that up. You put words in my mouth, and then based on _what I didn’t say_, you claimed that I’m misinformed. Ha ha.

  The bottom line – your opinion on this and the irrational and fear-based “lock ‘em up and throw away the key” mentality will become irrelevant as more and more states (even Texas) realize that building more and bigger prisons or stuffing the ones we have with even more prisoners is unsustainable. Politicians will no longer be able to pander for votes by supporting "get tough on crime" policies without presenting cost effective alternatives to throwing people in prison.

  Of course, there are some people who should be removed from society. But for people outside that group, we need to look at alternatives to warehousing them in prisons and at policies and programs that cost less and give people opportunities to become decent, productive citizens. In addition to saving tax dollars, I believe we have a moral obligation to do so.


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## Writ-with-Hand (Feb 13, 2011)

garza said:


> So from where you are, what _should_ be done, and, more important, what _can_ be done?



I don't know.

But alcohol use and alcoholism is treated as a medical issue rather than a criminal issue as it was during prohibition. I see no reason crack or heroin can't be treated the same.

I know little to nothing about International Law and not a whole lot about U.S. law - unlike alanmt or maybe you as well. I state that because my instincts are more from the streets. When a former mayor of Milwaukee and his police chief (not the current one) met in a community meeting with Vice Lords from around the 1st street area, because the community was in terror of them, and the leader of a pack of 30 of so of them read off a list of demands including releasing some of their leaders from prison, and then they all marched out, I had to laugh. :lol: There can only be one boss. The mayor didn't understand that. I don't believe in that _people walking out on you if you're the mayor. _

I don't entirely understand the Mexican problem either. I mean the Mexican Government is doing a heroic job. To be a cop in Mexico you also have to have a heroic set of balls of steal.

What I don't understand is why waste so much money and time on the violent cartels? If you're going to go into debt why not just borrow a billion from the IMF or World Bank and then put a price tag on all the heads of the cartels and maybe even their family members too. There are a lot of poor Mexicans that would be motivated to risk their lives for $100,000 or $1 million dollars. I would make Mexico shrink, become a real small place for the cartel and their goons.


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## garza (Feb 13, 2011)

writ-with-hand - First you say you don't know, then you proceed to talk about a couple of good ideas that would work, I have no doubt, though any politician who would seriously suggest doing what you suggest would need _cojones grandes de acero_ just like those Mexican cops you mention. 

Drug and alcohol addiction are medical problems. They should be treated as such. And interdiction should begin at a very early age. If you wait until a child is 10 or 11 years old before taking serious steps toward education and prevention then you might as well save your breath. Same goes for sex ed, of course. Yet rarely does anyone pay attention to the early onset of behavioural patterns that later turn into chemical dependence or promiscuity - often both together. So we have crack-addicted babies born with AIDS to 13-year-old mothers. Give me the odds on that child growing up to lead a happy life. Give me the odds on that child growing up at all. 

Mexico's problem is far more complex than anyone can know just by reading U.S. media. Your suggestion is a good one but impossible from a political standpoint. None of the major donors including the European Union and the United States would dare approve such a plan. 

At least, though, you are thinking in the right direction, and if enough people did that many of the world's problems might be solved.

We might even find a way to help that crack-addicted AIDS infected baby and his 13-year-old mother and invisible father.


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