# February 2016 - Grand Fiction Challenge READER'S CHOICE POLL!



## Bishop

[Sexy Female Voice]: "And now, presenting the poll opening... your host, Patrick C. BISHOP!"

[Bishop walks out from behind beautiful, red velvet curtain, donning his best tuxedo and Kurt Russell charm]

Gooooooooood evening ladies and gentlemen! It's time to vote!

No, not American Idol. No, not the presidency. No, not for "World's Most Awesome Bishop" (like there's even a NEED to vote on that...)

Take a moment, read the stories found *HERE*(click there) and enjoy the best of the best of the best of the best of the best writing forum on the internet, and inevitably, you'll find a favorite among the bunch. Your vote MATTERS. So read and pick the best (in your opinion) and show it some love. After all... without you, this would really just be me typing this into a computer hoping someone will read it!


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## Deleted member 56686

Bish, I didn't know you were a girl.


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## Schrody

Wait, I thought only judge's entries will be eligible for a poll :-s


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## Cran

Schrody said:


> Wait, I thought only judge's entries will be eligible for a poll :-s


Every entry is eligible for the People's Choice award. 

It is the one place where all can stand equal among equals ... 
although some seem to be more equal writers and storytellers than others.


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## Sleepwriter

The peoples choice award, alll the entrants have a chance to win it.


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## Bishop

I'm just going to leave this here, so you all know I'm watching you vote.


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## Cran

Your high school formal portrait? With ruffles? 

That's not a watching you image ... 







Now, _that's_ a watching you image!


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## Pluralized

Bishop said:


> [Sexy Female Voice]for "World's Most Awesome Bishop" (like there's even a NEED to vote on that...


I concur. 
View attachment 12200


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## Aquilo

Cran said:


> Your high school formal portrait? With ruffles?
> 
> That's not a watching you image ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, _that's_ a watching you image!



Goddammit, you caught some of exercising in order to press the vote button... just... just push me over there.


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## Schrody

Cran said:


> Every entry is eligible for the People's Choice award.
> 
> It is the one place where all can stand equal among equals ...
> although some seem to be more equal writers and storytellers than others.



More equal? That's not a Forumcracy! I would say some writers are better storytellers...


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## Schrody

Not a single vote!


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## Deleted member 56686

Patience, there is plenty of time yet


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## Schrody

Time is an illusion!


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## midnightpoet

I see a wide variation in likes; this is not surprising.  What one person views as great, another may view as a head scratcher.  Often a story may win and I don't agree, but I study it to see why.  That's one reason I like these contests, they can be such good teachers.


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## Harper J. Cole

Schrody said:


> Not a single vote!



I'm planning to hunt down the people who don't vote for me, and punish them *brutally! :twisted:*

I can recommend it; it's quite cathartic.


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## Schrody

HarperCole said:


> I'm planning to hunt down the people who don't vote for me, and punish them *brutally! :twisted:*
> 
> I can recommend it; it's quite cathartic.



Can we team up?


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## Harper J. Cole

Schrody said:


> Can we team up?



Certainly! I find *EPIC QUESTS FOR REVENGE *[SUP]TM[/SUP] can be quite lonely ... irate:


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## Schrody

HarperCole said:


> Certainly! I find *EPIC QUESTS FOR REVENGE *[SUP]TM[/SUP] can be quite lonely ... irate:



Yes! 







Do you wanna be smaller or bigger guy?


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## midnightpoet

Boy, this is ripe for some snarky political comment (never mind).


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## Pluralized

Schrody said:


> Yes!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you wanna be smaller or bigger guy?




You guys:
View attachment 12220


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## midnightpoet

It will be interesting to compare the favorite with the actual winner.  I'll be surprised if it's the same one, but you never know.


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## Schrody

What if someone wins 1st place and People's Choice Award?


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## Bishop

Schrody said:


> What if someone wins 1st place and People's Choice Award?



They win a date with Patrick Bishop.


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## kilroy214

Are Shrody and Harper reminding anybody else of Jay and Silent Bob right now?


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## kilroy214

Bishop said:


> They win a date with Patrick Bishop.


Who the hell is Patrick Bishop?


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## Deleted member 56686

You mean this guy?


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## Schrody

Bishop said:


> They win a date with Patrick Bishop.










kilroy214 said:


> Are Shrody and Harper reminding anybody else of Jay and Silent Bob right now?



I'm Jay ^^



kilroy214 said:


> Who the hell is Patrick Bishop?



Only the greatest person ever!


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## Schrody

mrmustard615 said:


> You mean this guy?





Don't you mean this guy?


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## Bishop

Naaaaah. It's this guy:



(Note: That's actually me!)


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## Deleted member 56686

You don't look like Snake Plissken at all


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## Harper J. Cole

I'm getting more of a Jeff-Bridges-in-the-Big-Lebowski vibe ...


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## midnightpoet

Bishop said:


> Naaaaah. It's this guy:
> 
> View attachment 12223
> 
> (Note: That's actually me!)



Where's the pointy ears?:icon_cheesygrin:


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## kilroy214

HarperCole said:


> I'm getting more of a Jeff-Bridges-in-the-Big-Lebowski vibe ...


But dude, that's just, like, your opinion, man.


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## aj47

kilroy214 said:


> But dude, that's just, like, your opinion, man.



.... and we know what they say about THOSE ...


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## Bishop

Everyone at work calls me Al Borland:






I always thought I had a bit of a Billy Mays vibe as well (may he rest in peace!):


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## Cran

>shrugs< I don't know. An eye-patch, some baby oil sheen, extensive plastic surgery ... and he's the spitting image of Snake. 



Schrody said:


> What if someone wins 1st place and People's Choice Award?


A parade through Forumtown ... and a damn fine lynching, probably. 

It's not usual for judges and people to agree. It happens, but it's not usual.

It will be much more difficult with such a large spread of entries and a small voter population with one vote per. Unless there is a common standout (which I don't see), there could well be ties at each step, and a possible run-off vote of the first tier ties to determine a winner.


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## Allysan

Is it considered unethical to vote for myself? I mean.. It's unlikely that anyone else will do it at this point and I'm craving an ego boost. :beaten:


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## Pluralized

Allysan said:


> Is it considered unethical to vote for myself? I mean.. It's unlikely that anyone else will do it at this point and I'm craving an ego boost. :beaten:



People have been banned for such things. 

Just give it time - there are lots more people coming to vote. Right? 


Seems like this would have been a perfect place for the three-vote system like the poets do.


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## Deleted member 56686

Allysan said:


> Is it considered unethical to vote for myself? I mean.. It's unlikely that anyone else will do it at this point and I'm craving an ego boost. :beaten:




It's not only unethical, it's against the rules and it can get you disqualified.

Look, the first time I entered a challenge there were fewer entries (seven I think) and you could vote on your favorite three entries. Do you know how many votes I got? Absolutely zero. Talk about dejection 

This time there are fifteen entries and you can only vote for one so it won't be surprising that some end up with zero votes. It doesn't mean it sucks. It only means you weren't any particular voter's favorite. The one I especially like hasn't gotten any votes yet either (I'm not sure if I'm voting yet since I'm a judge anyway), so, really, don't feel bad. :smile2:


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## Cran

Pluralized said:


> Just give it time - there are lots more people coming to vote. Right?
> 
> 
> Seems like this would have been a perfect place for the three-vote system like the poets do.


Yes, it would have been, but the organisers didn't pursue that option. So we'll get a skewed vote this time around. It's come from that concept of one person/one vote, although it's not actually how people vote in Oz. We vote either individual or pre-set preferences, and that's with a sample size of millions. Maybe next time they'll come on board and we can get a truer reflection of the people's choice. 

We want to get the word around, encourage as many members as possible to come in and vote. Our patter masters and influence peddlers are our best chance for that.



Allysan said:


> Is it considered unethical to vote for myself? I mean.. It's unlikely that anyone else will do it at this point and I'm craving an ego boost. :beaten:


Only here. In the real world, it's quite OK, and electoral candidates do it all the time. Here, it's seen as selfish.


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## Allysan

I was mostly being sarcastic.. How would voting for myself boost my ego? Kind of pathetic if it did. However, I haven't seen that rule posted in this thread before now...


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## Glhadiator

I have always viewed popular voting on stories as 'subjective'. It's why I don't subscribe to movie critics. I voted...of course. But the real reason I'm a member of this forum is for the exercise. Even boots require lots of rubbing to get shiny.

I just hope that fellow members realize that just because I didn't vote for a story doesn't mean I didn't like it. The bad stories are the ones that never get told.


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## Cran

Allysan said:


> I was mostly being sarcastic.. How would voting for myself boost my ego? Kind of pathetic if it did. However, I haven't seen that rule posted in this thread before now...


That's our fault. It's been a standard rule in these sorts of polls - mostly Poetry challenges, but occasionally in fiction - that the old hands take it for granted. 



Glhadiator said:


> I have always viewed popular voting on stories as 'subjective'. It's why I don't subscribe to movie critics. I voted...of course. But the real reason I'm a member of this forum is for the exercise. Even boots require lots of rubbing to get shiny.
> 
> I just hope that fellow members realize that just because I didn't vote for a story doesn't mean I didn't like it. The bad stories are the ones that never get told.


This is exactly right, and the very thing that a vote-for-one cannot show. 

Critics - that's different. There are good and bad, or skilled and inexperienced, as with most areas of expression. Critics and judges do look for different things in the works they consider, and while, yes, voting is strongly weighted to the subjective, proper critiquing and judging is more often evenly weighted or slightly leaning to the objective measures. Even so, it is the subjective response to a work that ultimately sways a critic or judge of creative material. 

Where the non-critic can say, "I don't know from art, but I know what I like," the experienced critic can say, "I do know from art, and this ticks all the boxes, but I still don't like."


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## joshybo

One thing that I might like to mention here is that, for future reference, it's probably best practice if none of the entrants discuss how many votes their piece has received in a public fashion either way.  I have absolutely no issue with the discussion that's taken place, as it brings forth a few good points that I had questions about myself, but even mentioning publicly that one's piece hasn't received any votes sort of whittles down for those reading which piece may or may not be yours.  In the regular LMs, it's not such a huge deal, as our names are typically attached to our pieces, but the Grand Fiction challenge goes out of its way to maintain the anonymity of the authors for certain reasons.  Again, this is solely for future reference, as there are rules in place regarding discussing one another's entries in our monthly competitions that I have had to be reminded of myself, previously.


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## Flint

Good job, everyone!  

I've just finished reading them all, and I greatly enjoyed all of them. I'm still having a ponder as to which one I'm going to vote for. I didn't realise judging could be so difficult.


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## Glhadiator

I would also add to what joshybo has pointed out in regards to voting: Many times, as people are known to do, voting can be influenced by the current popular trend. If a person is allowed to see which direction everyone else is voting they will sometimes cast their vote to follow the trend.

There are various reasons people will vote in that manner. Too many to list or discuss here.

I only bring this up because we are allowed to view the current voting 'before' we cast our vote. I feel that should be changed. Just another newbie trying to change things. =;


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## midnightpoet

The main poetry challenge has already approved "blind" voting. Maybe this could be considered next year, since voting has already started.  However, it wouldn't have changed my vote any.  I think many of us would rather be good than popular.:smile:


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## Flint

I didn't look before I voted, but I don't think it would have swayed my choice, personally. However, it's not a bad idea to make the vote blind next year.

 It's interesting to see the results so far.


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## Glhadiator

Let me rephrase my previous statement: "I feel that should be changed _for future contests_."

I agree with your assessment midnightpoet; most people on this forum want to be or become good writers. It's pretty much the core reason to join a writing forum.

However, following a trend to be popular is only one of the reasons people are captured by the lure of trends. People are swayed or influenced by trends without ever realizing they are being manipulated. As a society we follow trends in clothing, shoes, food, art, literature, devices ... well, pretty much everything. Most people will deny they are influenced by trends (we like to think of ourselves as individuals). I offer this as evidence: Examine all of the 'stuff' you own. How much of it resembles the current trends?

Don't misinterpret what I am saying. I am not trying to say trends are a bad thing. Unless maybe you're trying to solicit a general consensus using subjectivity. 

Subjective voting or analysis, for me, is the most desirable facet this forum has when it comes to submitting stories. I want to know if my story _moved_ you. I want to know how it made you_ feel_. I want to know if you _connected _with my character. Did my story have a discernible style? Did the POV work or confuse the reader?

Just because a story doesn't have any spelling, punctuation or grammar mistakes means it is a good read.


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## LOLeah

I enjoyed each and every one. You can certainly tell this contest was exclusively for the cream of the crop. :5stars:


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## Kyle R

Congrats to all the competitors!  It's always fun to see the different directions a prompt can go. Divergent thinking for the win!

Now, let's see . . . who to cast my vote for . . . :read:


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## Pluralized

Does anyone else wonder how many people truly read 16,000 words and cast an objective vote? Can't help but wonder at the forum dynamics at work here. If there was some way to incentivize impartiality and thoroughness...


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## W.Goepner

If only I could have entered I would have been the only one to have written, not about a gruesome ending of people or humanity, But about a orchid like flower which blooms only one night in forty years, and as daylight intrudes upon its night of glory it fades to a withered husk of its former glory radiance.

Oh was the peoples choice for the better story in our opinion, or were we expected to base it on more like if we had judged it?


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## InkwellMachine

W.Goepner said:


> If only I could have entered I would have been the only one to have written, not about a gruesome ending of people or humanity, But about a orchid like flower which blooms only one night in forty years, and as daylight intrudes upon its night of glory it fades to a withered husk of its former glory radiance.
> 
> Oh was the peoples choice for the better story in our opinion, or were we expected to base it on more like if we had judged it?


I'm sure how you vote is completely up to your discretion.


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## Schrody

Pluralized said:


> Does anyone else wonder how many people truly read 16,000 words and cast an objective vote? Can't help but wonder at the forum dynamics at work here. If there was some way to incentivize impartiality and thoroughness...



Well, since I didn't read them all, I figured it would be unfair of me to vote


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## Deleted member 56686

I think the technical stuff (SPaG, voice) would be better left for the judges. Vote on the entries any way you see fit.


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## Schrody

Who said anything about the SPaG? :-k


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## Deleted member 56686

Schrody said:


> Who said anything about the SPaG? :-k




I think Bill insinuated it when he was asking how he should vote. Anyway the point is just vote on the one you like. Don't worry about the more technical aspects. That's all I'm saying


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## Schrody

I won't vote if I've read only one entry...


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## Terry D

The People's Choice doesn't have to be impartial -- in face it should probably not be. It is strictly a popularity contest. Just like in the real world, the best written, most thoughtful, books aren't all best-sellers. Don't worry about being fair, just pick one you like a vote for it. The judges will hand the rest of the stuff.


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## Aquilo

Well, my system of voting is...


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## Schrody

Terry D said:


> The People's Choice doesn't have to be impartial -- in face it should probably not be. It is strictly a popularity contest. Just like in the real world, the best written, most thoughtful, books aren't all best-sellers. Don't worry about being fair, just pick one you like a vote for it. The judges will hand the rest of the stuff.



Nah, I wouldn't feel okay if I did. Fairness and justice is very important to me


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## W.Goepner

Gee wiz folks. I was simply wondering if I should have been more subjective or simply vote for the one I liked. (As I did before I asked)

I read them all and enjoyed them, I had a hard choice of which was my favorite. (Of course I cannot say which because that could or would influence others) Anyway two were close with a tight third, a fourth was trying to poke its self into my thoughts but I, well you who have read my writing and understand my intimacy might be able to guess which I liked best.

What I find disturbing, is with 1101 active members why there are only 12 votes, which is less than the number of stories to be judged by the people.


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## TKent

I expect that folks are busy reading the stories and will be voting when they are done


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## InkwellMachine

Unfortunately, I think most people will look through the titles, pick out the ones that feel the most promising, and read those. That's a pretty common way to choose which book/story to read when you have literally no background for any of them. That and cover art, but we don't have that luxury.


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## midnightpoet

I would think it's pretty common, and makes sense that si-fi writers may like si-fi stories best, fantasy writers may like fantasy stories best, an so forth.  I've often wondered about that, because of my experience as a judge - so I really do try to be objective.  Sometimes it's hard on a genre I'm not familiar with, but as my experience judging other genres increases it gives me a broader perspective.


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## Harper J. Cole

It's true, I voted for one of the other sci-fi stories. There's an element of luck to having lots of voters who like your genre, but you still have beat the other stories of that type.

HC


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## W.Goepner

I will say this I am not a fan of horror. Though I do not mind some horror movies, I do not get into the blood and guts. (Hmm I think I should have wrote that in my interview)

The one time I tightened my belt and judged, I found myself wanting to dump a story for its genre rather than if it was done well or not and what SPaG I could discern. I found myself challenged to choose the correct scores for the piece based on the right reasons. 

Judging is not simply saying this story was good based on it being a Lassie story, where this one failed because it was a Freddy Crouger, and this one was between because it was Star Wars/Star Trek ish. When judging the CoF One must compare each piece to the fire starter, Then decide how well the piece held, followed or supported, or even differed from the fire starter. On top of the SPaG, tone/voice, and effect. 

People's choice, I do realize, is which piece hit it home fore ME. 

Take a guess which one, and I will tell you at the relieving of the awards.


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## Pluralized

Eh?


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## ppsage

Pluralized said:


> Eh?


revealing


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## Pluralized

ppsage said:


> revealing



Hook, line, and sinker. Finger? 

Thank her.


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## Cran

midnightpoet said:


> I would think it's pretty common, and makes sense that si-fi writers may like si-fi stories best, fantasy writers may like fantasy stories best, an so forth.  I've often wondered about that, because of my experience as a judge - so I really do try to be objective.  Sometimes it's hard on a genre I'm not familiar with, but as my experience judging other genres increases it gives me a broader perspective.


Except for arguing for the replacement of _writers_ with _readers_,* I'd agree with this.

_*Yes, here on a writers' forum, they usually overlap, and many readers of works tend to critique them as writers rather than as readers, but it is as readers first where the like/don't like decisions dominate._



W.Goepner said:


> The one time I tightened my belt and judged, I found myself wanting to dump a story for its genre rather than if it was done well or not and what SPaG I could discern. I found myself challenged to choose the correct scores for the piece based on the right reasons.
> 
> Judging is not simply saying this story was good based on it being a Lassie story, where this one failed because it was a Freddy Crouger, and this one was between because it was Star Wars/Star Trek ish. When judging the CoF One must compare each piece to the fire starter, Then decide how well the piece held, followed or supported, or even differed from the fire starter. On top of the SPaG, tone/voice, and effect.


It can be a big shock to first time judges to learn this, and to find their decisions as much as under scrutiny as they gave the entries.



> People's choice, I do realize, is which piece hit it home fore ME.


Yes, which for judging is only one part of assessment process.



> Take a guess which one, and I will tell you at the relieving of the awards.


I wouldn't dare try to guess. I'm still trying to decide if I'm going to vote at all.


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## W.Goepner

Cran said:


> Except for arguing for the replacement of _writers_ with _readers_,* I'd agree with this.
> 
> _*Yes, here on a writers' forum, they usually overlap, and many readers of works tend to critique them as writers rather than as readers, but it is as readers first where the like/don't like decisions dominate._
> 
> 
> It can be a big shock to first time judges to learn this, and to find their decisions as much as under scrutiny as they gave the entries.
> 
> 
> Yes, which for judging is only one part of assessment process.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't dare try to guess. I'm still trying to decide if I'm going to vote at all.



When I realized what I had done in reviewing my scores before sending them, I went back and corrected my comments and reevaluated my score. I even think I mentioned in my comments that it was extra hard to judge the piece because I did not agree with the genre.


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## 20oz

I don't know who to vote for. I ones I'm debating out who will get my vote are "The Coward's Way Out," "The Place," and "Kimari's Heart."

Tough. I love them for different reasons. :dispirited:


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## bazz cargo

Judging is part assessment of competence and part impact. The most important point is how interesting and immersive  the read is. Being blind to genre bias is tough but necessary. 

Popular choice is whatever floats your boat.


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## 20oz

Even if you were to look at each and every entry objectively, you'll subjectively choose "the best one". So, people, vote.


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## Cran

20oz said:


> I don't know who to vote for. I ones I'm debating out who will get my vote are "The Coward's Way Out," "The Place," and "Kimari's Heart."
> 
> Tough. I love them for different reasons. :dispirited:


Which is why the short straw/pick one approach doesn't do the challenge or the entries justice.

The other thing we should consider is this reticence to discuss the stories until after it's all over. I know it's come about because of not wanting to influence other people still preparing entries or the judges in their deliberations, but I'm not sure that the benefit outweighs the cost of not attracting broader interest in what's happening.

What these challenges are missing is the peanut gallery, the commentators, the razzle dazzle of live competitions. The world is moving away from old dry wait and see ways of doing things. 

So, well done on speaking up and naming names. You like those stories. I agree two out of three.


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## W.Goepner

Cran said:


> 20oz said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know who to vote for. I ones I'm debating out who will get my vote are "The Coward's Way Out," "The Place," and "Kimari's Heart."
> 
> Tough. I love them for different reasons. :dispirited:
> 
> 
> 
> Which is why the short straw/pick one approach doesn't do the challenge or the entries justice.
> 
> The other thing we should consider is this reticence to discuss the stories until after it's all over. I know it's come about because of not wanting to influence other people still preparing entries or the judges in their deliberations, but I'm not sure that the benefit outweighs the cost of not attracting broader interest in what's happening.
> 
> What these challenges are missing is the peanut gallery, the commentators, the razzle dazzle of live competitions. The world is moving away from old dry wait and see ways of doing things.
> 
> So, well done on speaking up and naming names. You like those stories. I agree two out of three.
Click to expand...


I agree here Cran, The ol' wait until the vote is over routine is so nerve racking. (and I am not in this contest) I mean how is it with real life competitions? I cannot see the judges having every one in the audience stay quiet. Besides popularity is just that, and if talking about why I like a story coincides with yours it might mean we will choose the same one. Or you might be able to show me what I missed or did not think about in one over the other.

Can you imagine the pageants being judged behind closed doors, or without the cheers of the audiences. I do not think this closed door competition is valid. Main reason is The meet and potatoes of the judging is not supposed to be sway-able by comments, SPaG is SPaG, and no matter how much we like or dislike the piece the the SPaG never changes. Also popularity contests are popularity contests, the weight of my thoughts should be able to sway others and vice a versa. 

I also like two of the three but my third is the one I chose.


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## InkwellMachine

I thought *The Place *was very well-written, and pretty poignant to boot. It ultimately didn't _do _a whole lot for me, but I think it was the most technically-excellent of my competitor's entries, so there you go. Whoever wrote it, good on you.


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## Cran

W.Goepner said:


> I agree here Cran, The ol' wait until the vote is over routine is so nerve racking. (and I am not in this contest) I mean how is it with real life competitions? I cannot see the judges having every one in the audience stay quiet. Besides popularity is just that, and if talking about why I like a story coincides with yours it might mean we will choose the same one. Or you might be able to show me what I missed or did not think about in one over the other.
> 
> Can you imagine the pageants being judged behind closed doors, or without the cheers of the audiences. I do not think this closed door competition is valid. Main reason is The meet and potatoes of the judging is not supposed to be sway-able by comments, SPaG is SPaG, and no matter how much we like or dislike the piece the the SPaG never changes. Also popularity contests are popularity contests, the weight of my thoughts should be able to sway others and vice a versa.
> 
> I also like two of the three but my third is the one I chose.


That's it. The challenges we have fall between the two different ways that real life competitions happen. 

The embargo on audiences and commentators discussing the pros and cons or finer points or history of an entry or entrant only happen in totally blind competitions; ie, the entries are not seen by anyone except the judges until after it's all over and the winners are announced. Then everyone can talk about it ... officially. Unofficially, people still talk about it but not for the record. The most common examples of this form are closed school or university exams, and some writing and arts competitions. 

Competitions where the entries or performances are visible as they are presented usually come with running commentaries, spot interviews, discussions of the event and its participants and various forms of advertising by sponsors, if any. Examples range from sporting and creative performance contests from the local poetry slam to the biggest awards nights which have news leads and lobbying for months beforehand.

The Challenge informal discussion threads - coffee bar, bistro, diner, etc - were meant to provide venues for these sorts of discussions; anything and everything from the challenge overall to themes and prompts to _Chocolate Threadbear's killer opening sentence_ or _TicToc's excellent use of imagery in the third par_ to _Why do so many entrants write sci fi or horror and so few write period romances?_ 

That is partly to keep the entry threads clean for reading, judging, and posterity. And partly to keep the interest up, to keep the discussion going, and yes, to raise the bar for the next ones. Somewhere along the way, the intention changed and embargoes went up on Likes for stories and on discussing the current challenge in any but the broadest of terms.

These things get raised quietly from time to time, but too often get set aside as everything else needs doing. This might be a good time to open up the discussion and get a sense of what our participating members and challenge organisers feel would best serve into the future.


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## midnightpoet

Geez, is everyone here that impatient?:icon_cheesygrin:

Seriously, for the main three main prose competitions I think one like we just did for February is a good idea. Picking out favorites like we have done I do not believe would sway the judges.  From my experience here the judges may be harsh, but always fair. I also think going back to original intention on the informal discussion threads is a good idea.

The main poetry contest I think was improved by making it a blind vote; however, it's still a popularity contest (and there's nothing wrong with that).  I've seen winners there that still need a lot of work and some I have no clue about.  One reason I like the PIP contest is because we get feedback. I assume there is nothing keeping anyone who wants feedback from putting their work in a workshop after the competition, though I rarely see it (could be, like me, other things come up that are more important).


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## rcallaci

I found this to be a humbling experience 

I really like two stories in this challenge-"the cowards way out" and the 'Goat farm" both of these had an impact on me. I had to choose between the two, a tough decision because I liked them both in equal measure- two different genres- I chose the 'cowards way out-My reasons for this was that I have been doing a kind of SI-Fi of late, although horror, fantasy and the odd is more my thing, so the coward's way it it was. Both outstanding stories.

One was about hope never dies and the other was about tender meat is a treat


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## midnightpoet

I looked back again at the ones that didn't get votes, and a few were at least as good as ones that got more than one vote.  I agree with Bob, it is humbling - and difficult, even just to put down "likes."  The judges comments are going to be very interesting.


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## Phil Istine

I have decided not to vote.  I carried out a pretty thorough scoring regime and ended up with a three-way tie.  I could do a random draw for those three, but I feel that it might be disrespectful for the two that weren't drawn.
I can't split them.
Thank you for an enjoyable read everyone.


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## Pluralized

At the end of this thing, we can't help but recall some wise words a recent winner of the LM said - 





> The remarkable value the LM competitions hold for me is achieved when my submission is complete.



If our story has been read, analyzed, scored poorly or scored well, the primary value is in its very existence as a completed piece of work. For us personally, seeing at least a single vote in this thread exceeds our expectations and warms our blackened heart. 

We wish all of our compatriots the best of luck and eagerly await the results of this contest.


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## Deleted member 56686

I did vote, though I won't tell you for what since I'm one of the judges. I also found out I missed one of the entries so I had to send Annie a revised score sheet to add the missed entry. A thousand pardons and I assure you all that I only added the scores of the missed entry. The original scores on the others remain the same.


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## Pluralized

mrmustard615 said:


> I did vote, though I won't tell you for what since I'm one of the judges. I also found out I missed one of the entries so I had to send Annie a revised score sheet to add the missed entry. A thousand pardons and I assure you all that I only added the scores of the missed entry. The original scores on the others remain the same.



Hmm, we thought Kilroy was running this extravaganza. Must be a team effort. Cool!


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## Schrody

Wow, it's a tie. Didn't see that coming... :lol:


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## Pluralized

Cran said:
			
		

> These things get raised quietly from time to time, but too often get set aside as everything else needs doing. This might be a good time to open up the discussion and get a sense of what our participating members and challenge organisers feel would best serve into the future.



We'd like to see a softening on the position, ourselves. Having been banned on occasion for the simple act of clicking the 'like' button, perhaps the influence of popular opinion on judges' impartiality is slightly overblown. Our judges do a great job and seem to always remain fair when considering the work. 

Allowing likes and discussion seems reasonable moving forward, don't you think? If there's one thing we desperately need to preserve in these challenges, it's sustained participation.


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## aj47

Honestly, I think if a judge is swayed by the Likes then they maybe shouldn't be judging. 

HOWEVER, the Likes can influence the people who haven't submitted yet....so not Liking an entry until after the challenge closes to new entries is ENTIRELY appropriate.


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## W.Goepner

Pluralized said:


> We'd like to see a softening on the position, ourselves. Having been banned on occasion for the simple act of clicking the 'like' button, perhaps the influence of popular opinion on judges' impartiality is slightly overblown. Our judges do a great job and seem to always remain fair when considering the work.
> 
> Allowing likes and discussion seems reasonable moving forward, don't you think? If there's one thing we desperately need to preserve in these challenges, it's sustained participation.



Like I said SPaG is SPaG, No amount of likes should influence the amount of SPaG issues. Tone/Voice and Effect, Might or can be influenced, But should not because they are ways to determine how well the writer presented the piece and what it did for the judge personally. 

If you the reader like what I am saying right now! It could influence the others to decide we should open the comments in the chat areas, over the likes in the competition thread. Thus enabling a broader view of any one piece. NOW A judge *may not* comment in these discussions, it might reveal their choice. I can see Tone/Voice and Effect being effected, when detailed discussions come up like, why I choose to Cap the first letter of a word to emphasize it. Those discussions should be discouraged. But general chat of, I liked this over that. Why Not?


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## Pluralized

The way we do it is probably different. Judged quite a few times and always copy the text out into a word file and do a thorough, quiet read without the influence of the forum chatter. At no time could 'likes' or such trivialities affect or sway our review in the least.


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## Cran

midnightpoet said:


> I looked back again at the ones that didn't get votes, and a few were at least as good as ones that got more than one vote.  I agree with Bob, it is humbling - and difficult, even just to put down "likes."  The judges comments are going to be very interesting.


This is what I mean about the poll not reflecting the overall appeal to the readers. I'm sure there are more of us who got to that_ eenie meanie mynee mo_ situation to pick just one, who would rather have gone: I like this one and this one and this one ... and maybe that one; whether for similar or very different reasons for each choice.



Pluralized said:


> Hmm, we thought Kilroy was running this extravaganza. Must be a team effort. Cool!


Yes.



astroannie said:


> Honestly, I think if a judge is swayed by the Likes then they maybe shouldn't be judging.
> 
> HOWEVER, the Likes can influence the people who haven't submitted yet....so not Liking an entry until after the challenge closes to new entries is ENTIRELY appropriate.


That's where I see it differently. I see that, in our regular challenges, some later entries are influenced by earlier ones anyway,* so if that is the issue, then all entries should remain hidden until after the judging. Otherwise, we're stuck with this neither one thing nor the other. As I see it, we either go fully blind as some real world competitions run, or fully open to commentary and influence as most real world competitions - especially those outside of writing - happen, and in happening tend to pull the most attention and support. 

Yes, it means the early runners are the bar-setters, the ones to beat. So what? That is the case now, we just don't embrace it, or worse, go all the heavy to deny it.

_*One challenge I judged progressed like a game of Chinese Whispers. _



W.Goepner said:


> Like I said SPaG is SPaG, No amount of likes should influence the amount of SPaG issues. Tone/Voice and Effect, Might or can be influenced, But should not because they are ways to determine how well the writer presented the piece and what it did for the judge personally.
> 
> If you the reader like what I am saying right now! It could influence the others to decide we should open the comments in the chat areas, over the likes in the competition thread. Thus enabling a broader view of any one piece. NOW A judge *may not* comment in these discussions, it might reveal their choice. I can see Tone/Voice and Effect being effected, when detailed discussions come up like, why I choose to Cap the first letter of a word to emphasize it. Those discussions should be discouraged. But general chat of, I liked this over that. Why Not?


Can't say I agree with all of that, Bill. Something like that would just be moving the police fence and leading to even greater dissension over can or can't. Better, I think to remove any shackles and embrace the interest, or go fully blind and remove the uncertainty and fear of influence.

Where we are, I think, is unsupportable if not hypocritical. Not to mention being a pig to police at times.


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## Harper J. Cole

Ah, the poll's closed! I can stop clicking refresh every five seconds to see if my score's gone up. 8)


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## joshybo

Will the LM scores be up this weekend?


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## Schrody

I would like to thank everyone who read 'em all, and to members who haven't got a single vote - there's always next year 

Btw. it's a tie. Who won?!


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## Cran

joshybo said:


> Will the LM scores be up this weekend?


That depends on how many pitchforks and flaming torches Bazz can sell ... 



Schrody said:


> I would like to thank everyone who read 'em all, and to members who haven't got a single vote - there's always next year
> 
> Btw. it's a tie. Who won?!


Funny you should ask that. There is a huddle going on among the sponsors and organisers to decide whether to play the tie, or enter a tie-breaker run-off. Until the late run from the second placed, it didn't look like something we needed to consider this time.

So, in keeping with the spirit of LM, we're going to build the suspense until the mob can't stand it any more and decide to storm the castle gates.


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## Deleted member 56686

One suggestion. Maybe the one with the higher score wins the tiebreaker?


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## aj47

That's not fair--that makes it a judges' choice .... Runoff!!!!  It's the only FAIR way.


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## Cran

mrmustard615 said:


> One suggestion. Maybe the one with the higher score wins the tiebreaker?


I mean this in the nicest possible way - _Hell No!_

The judges scores and the people's choice are entirely separate entities, and it would look bad - as in police state bad - for the people's choice to be decided by the judges' choice.


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## joshybo

I, personally, would say to just play the tie.  Then again, I'm not the one paying out the prize money.


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## W.Goepner

Put up a poll right away of the top two runners and let the people decide. Now get to it! What decision is there to make?

Well one could ask the ones who could not decide to vote for one of the two.


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## bazz cargo

How about a hand of poker?


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## jenthepen

bazz, you know better than that! Pistols at dawn is the English way.


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## Sleepwriter

What about a game of rock, paper, scissors, Spock?


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## Cran

W.Goepner said:


> Put up a poll right away of the top two runners and let the people decide. Now get to it! What decision is there to make?
> 
> Well one could ask the ones who could not decide to vote for one of the two.



It's looking like a tie-breaker poll, just as soon as we can sober up the organisers.


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