# Being whipped



## Cefor

Okay, so the beginning of my novel features a young woman being whipped publicly, it's a pretty huge deal that the whole of the premise is based on this event -- she's being exiled. 

Anyway, I've read a few fictional accounts of whippings and I know that they can be deadly, the wounds are ridiculously painful and everything... but what I need to know is how many lashes it would take for one to pass out, bleed out, die... is there any kind of 'guideline' that I can work off? Obviously for each person it'll be different, but let's assume a healthy individual who has no underlying health problems and lives in a society where hard work is common (pre-industrialisation tribal community).

Is there any, God forbid, personal experience of serious lashing that anyone can tell me of? Any kind of non-fiction account or something I can read? Anything will be helpful, to be honest. I don't want my readers to have issues with the first event of the novel


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## wyf

I remember reading an account in a George McDonald Frazer book (fiction, but he was really hot on historical accuracy) of a knout being used in Russia. It stuck in my mind because of his description, it could be use in two ways, with the narrow edge, which could cut down to the bone, and the wide edge which could break your spine. I found this link Knout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and an eye witness account here TERRIBLE PUNISHMENTS. - The Russian Knout and the Turkish Bustinado--How the Punishments are Inflicted. THE KNOUT. THE BASTINADO. - View Article - NYTimes.com hope that helps


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## Potty

Seems the human body can withstand a large number of floggings:

_In the Napoleonic Wars, the maximum number of lashes that could be inflicted on soldiers in the British Army reached 1,200. This many lashes could permanently disable or kill a man. Oman, historian of the Peninsular War, noted that the maximum sentence was inflicted "nine or ten times by general court-martial during the whole six years of the war" and that 1,000 lashes were administered about 50 times.[6] Other sentences were for 900, 700, 500 and 300 lashes. One soldier was sentenced to 700 lashes for stealing a beehive.[7] Another man was let off after only 175 of 400 lashes, but spent three weeks in the hospital. _- Wiki Flagellation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As it says here, after 175 lashes a man lived, admittedly he probably wished he didn't.


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## Sam

Soldiers are different. I'm not sure what would have happened in the Napoleonic Wars, but in contemporary times all soldiers undergo SERE (survival, evasion, resistance, escape) training. Depending on their rank, some undergo differing levels that vary in intensity. A major, for instance, undergoes Level C training because in his position he is more privy to top secret information than a corporal. That being said, a normal human being couldn't withstand the same treatment a soldier could. 

Is it a single whip or a cat-o'-nine-tails? That makes it different also. How strong is the person using it? How big or strong is the guy being whipped? All these variables play a part.


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## Cefor

Hmm, Potty - any idea if that whip was a single head or a multi-headed cat o' nine tails? It seems extraordinarily high from what I was expecting... I was going on the assumption that around 40 lashes could kill... can't really remember what I based this on.

Ahh, Wyf's link says this: "A sentence of 100 or 120 lashes was equivalent to a death sentence. Even twenty lashes could maim, and with the specially extended Great Knout, twenty blows could kill, with death from the Great Knout sometimes being attributed to the breaking of the spine due to the weight of the Great Knout"... which is definitely more what I was expecting.

I'm pretty sure that in my story, it's not a simple single lash... but perhaps a three-headed one. Hmmm. Decisions, decisions.


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## Kyle R

Have you seen the caning/flogging scene in _Passion of the Christ_? It's a powerful visual description of what it looks like for a character to be whipped.

Be warned if you haven't seen it, it's graphic and very brutal (and of course very sad):

[video=youtube;6BXeAW4g0ZM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BXeAW4g0ZM[/video]


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## Cefor

Yeah, Kyle, I've seen it... once. Could never bring myself to put the DVD back in the player. I definitely don't think I want my whipping to be that bad, it would go against the point. She's not being sentenced to death, after all, just exile.


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## Elvenswordsman

It wasn't the whipping that would kill most soldiers, it was the infections that would follow. As for the point of passing out? It's called a pain threshold. There were people in the army that went for 225 lashes and stayed up the whole time. There were also people who probably passed out after 3. It's all a matter of which type of character you want to create. If he's a strong-willed, tough bloke, he can take a million lashed before he's out.


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## SeverinR

I believe in "The Passion", he is scorged (nearly to death). Not simply whipping.  The whip used had barbs to rip flesh, not just as a whip. 
Was he whipped too?

Might look for caning in singapore for reference.  Most of the pics I found with google search show caning rather then whipping. 

This is a female, not a soldier. In the past non-judicial, probably the worst pain a woman would endure would be child birth. Pre-child birth no one knows how she will endure pain. Has she had a tough life? 
You don't know how you deal with pain, until you experience it.


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## wyf

Caning is F***ing painful.


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## Kyle R

I thought this whipping scene, in the movie "Glory" (Great movie, by the way), was very well done.

Here Denzel Washington is being made an example of, accused of desertion (when he was really just looking for shoes to replace his broken ones).

His character up to this point has been proud and rebellious. This scene captures the moment he, while staring contemptuously at Matthew Broderick, has his pride taken from him.

What makes this great, in my opinion, is the focus not on the whipping itself, but on the character struggling to hold on, and finally, losing that battle.

It's sad because we see a strong character being  broken.

Something to think about when handling your whipping scene!

[video=youtube;VnaeK8G9SRY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnaeK8G9SRY[/video]


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## LaughinJim

Hi Cefor, 

Your OP is very interesting and disturbing. There are books that do contain this information in this country. One collection exists at the NYPL on 42nd in NYC and the other that I know of, exists at Penn in the rare books library on the 7th floor of Van Pelt. The one that the lion's guard is easier to access but you must see the head reference librarian there, and you know how cagey those old cats can be.

There is someone here on this site who I do know quite well, who posts regularly in the word games thread. He has those keys, but I doubt if he will give you the time of day, nothing personal.


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## Cefor

KyleColorado said:


> I thought this whipping scene, in the movie "Glory" (Great movie, by the way), was very well done.
> 
> Here Denzel Washington is being made an example of, accused of desertion (when he was really just looking for shoes to replace his broken ones).
> 
> His character up to this point has been proud and rebellious. This scene captures the moment he, while staring contemptuously at Matthew Broderick, has his pride taken from him.
> 
> What makes this great, in my opinion, is the focus not on the whipping itself, but on the character struggling to hold on, and finally, losing that battle.
> 
> It's sad because we see a strong character being  broken.
> 
> Something to think about when handling your whipping scene!



Cheers, Kyle, that sort of thing is helpful, aye. It's hard because my character isn't a strong willing woman... she's young, naive and untested in the ways of the cruelty of the world. Up until the moment where she's being exiled, she's believed in everything her clan's priests (equivalent to) have said. When they turn around and accuse her of the worst crime one can commit in their society, her whole world view is broken -- furthermore, when not even her own mother steps in to stop them, she's shattered. In fact, only her father tries to stop it, but knows that really he cannot do anything.

Basically, I'm thinking that she's not going to survive many whips before passing out, and she does indeed cry out from the very beginning of the punishment. I think in my first draft of this scene, I had her sentenced to fifteen and pass out around twelve... but if there was only fifteen given, then surely that would be because the effects of only fifteen lashes are severe... she's broken the most sacred of tenets in their religion, supposedly. So, I'm thinking she stays awake for a lot less than that, but I won't mention how many exactly. Hmm.



			
				LaughinJim said:
			
		

> Hi Cefor,
> 
> Your OP is very interesting and disturbing. There are books that do contain this information in this country. One collection exists at the NYPL on 42nd in NYC and the other that I know of, exists at Penn in the rare books library on the 7th floor of Van Pelt. The one that the lion's guard is easier to access but you must see the head reference librarian there, and you know how cagey those old cats can be.
> 
> There is someone here on this site who I do know quite well, who posts regularly in the word games thread. He has those keys, but I doubt if he will give you the time of day, nothing personal.



It's supposed to be disturbing, yes, because the savagery is supposed to show how their totalitarian theocracy operates; idyllic up to the point where you break their laws, then it turns brutal.

Well, as I live over the pond, I don't think I could gain access to the NYC library, and I've only ever seen it from the outside, anyway, though I would have loved to look around. Thanks for the suggestion, though.


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