# World Building Interview.



## Skodt (Jun 20, 2013)

I am amazed by the questions I hear about world building sometimes. People take months developing an entire atlas. Then they sit down another month to make the standards of people, coin, culture. Then come the religions and other parts of any civilized world. It all has its own parts and structure. People live to build the stories of their own world, and then they stuff it into the story. They have no rhyme or reason; they info dump onto the page, and all you can do is wonder will this ever end in time for lunch: exaggeration. Yet, no one really wants to hear how many coppers are in a gold, and why white gold has a fraction of a copper more; it gets old and redundant quickly. So, here comes Patrick Rothfuss, Author of "King Killer Chronicles"- very good series so far by the way, and he sets out to give a few tips on the subject. Now these aren't a fix all, and by no means is this right for everyone, but I enjoyed his insight, and thought maybe some of you fellows and ladies would as well. So without further delay here is, 

Patrick Rothfuss Quotes on World Building | The Rabid Rainbow Ferret Society


----------



## luckyscars (Jun 21, 2013)

I am amazed at how the appetite among writers for building worlds eclipses the urge to understand the one we live in.


----------



## Jon M (Jun 21, 2013)

Yeah I don't get how anybody can like a genre other than literary, either.


----------



## popsprocket (Jun 21, 2013)

> People take months developing an entire atlas. Then they sit down another month to make the standards of people, coin, culture. Then come the religions and other parts of any civilized world. It all has its own parts and structure. People live to build the stories of their own world, and then they stuff it into the story.


This is the most concise definition of the nanowrimo (fantasy) forums ever given.




> [...] they info dump onto the page, and all you can do is wonder will this ever end in time for lunch [...]



And this is the most accurate description of all the excerpts people post on the nanowrimo forums.


----------



## Jeko (Jun 21, 2013)

World-builders are not storytellers, IMO. They become storytellers when they stop procrastinating over telling the story.


----------



## Lewdog (Jun 21, 2013)

Wouldn't the importance of world building really depend on how complex the novel is?  Could you imagine writing a book like _The Hunger Games_ without doing a detailed outline of the world first?  It would take ten times longer to write the book because the author would be constantly having to go back and read things about the world they wrote earlier and make sure everything was congruent.


----------



## Jeko (Jun 21, 2013)

> Could you imagine writing a book like _The Hunger Games _without doing a detailed outline of the world first? It would take ten times longer to write the book because the author would be constantly having to go back and read things about the world they wrote earlier and make sure everything was congruent.



Really? The Hunger Game's world is shallow and the creative mind of the writer is more than capable of keeping track of a handful of important ideas.

As I said, I'm strongly against the 'world-building' phase of writing - unless the writing is for more than a story, writing the story _is _world-building with the exception that you are actually writing the story.


----------



## Lewdog (Jun 21, 2013)

Cadence said:


> Really? The Hunger Game's world is shallow and the creative mind of the writer is more than capable of keeping track of a handful of important ideas.
> 
> As I said, I'm strongly against the 'world-building' phase of writing - unless the writing is for more than a story, writing the story _is _world-building with the exception that you are actually writing the story.



Shallow?  _The Hunger Games_ has several different districts all of which have different types of people that have different socioeconomic status and live different styles of life.  There is a lot more depth to it than you think to keep track of, especially when you take into account it has sequels.  Now when I say world building is important, I'm not just saying so that the reader can better understand the story, but it also makes the writer's task of creating the novel MUCH easier.


----------



## Jeko (Jun 21, 2013)

> _The Hunger Games has several different districts all of which have different types of people that have different socioeconomic status and live different styles of life. There is a lot more depth to it than you think to keep track of, especially when you take into account it has sequels._



Wow, I'm enthralled by the awe-inspiring complexity of it all. 

There's more depth in the <100 pages that make up Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde than there are in the entire trilogy of the Hunger Games. 



> I'm not just saying so that the reader can better understand the story, but it also makes the writer's task of creating the novel MUCH easier.



I completely disagree with this. I also completely disagree with the concept of improving the 'ease' with which one writes while sacrificing progressing to actually writing the story. World-building is a natural process. It doesn't need it's own slot on the agenda. I remember reading somewhere that Mark Twain believed that when one is not writing the story, one should not focus on it - but rather let the story come together in the recesses of the mind. Something like that. I'll try to find an exact quote.


----------



## InkwellMachine (Jun 21, 2013)

There are two things that I must say on the score of world-building: 

-Firstly, world-building is a dangerous trap for good writers, because we love to expand upon things and see them to their 'end.' Seeing the creation of a world through to its end is a very lengthy process, so for a writer that's like getting caught up in a really great RPG that has no definite ending. It's more important to write the story than build the world, and as we write or outline or plan the plot, we learn what aspects of the world must necessarily see more development.

-Secondly, world-building is _not writing; _it's setting preparation. We should all know that there are plenty of things more important than setting. Granted, cultures and customs and histories can mean a lot to each character, but that's really gravy. Even without Middle Earth, Tolkien could have told the same story. Wouldn't have looked or felt the same, but it would have been the same in essence.



> Could you imagine writing a book like _The Hunger Games without doing a detailed outline of the world first?_


When I read the trilogy, I was assuming she was just winging it the whole time. Honestly, everything is so ridiculously convenient that it's impossible to believe that there was any premeditation whatsoever. Even if she did plan out the socioeconomic status/circumstances of each of the districts, that doesn't increase the world's depth because it's really not important to the story--it just spreads it wider in one direction. Not helpful.

Also, yes. Patrick Rothfuss is indeed an amazing author. His world-building is just right, because it's applied when necessary, but otherwise only very vaguely alluded to.


----------



## Skodt (Jun 21, 2013)

I by the way did not advocate no world building. I drew out my map; and then decided my structure. Then, I moved on to writing the story. My culture, coinage, religions; they were all dabbled into the story in terms of need. This interview was posted more to show how to world build, and not over obsess with it; and not info dump it into the story.


----------



## wancow (Jun 21, 2013)

World building is only useful if it helps the author AND the reader make sense of what's happening in the story.  The rest is hyperbole, only useful for those who play RPG games...  I'm a huge fan of Jaqueline Carey's "Kushiel's Dart".  She spends a lot of time world building in her story, but she ties that directly to her main character from the time of that character's birth, and only give details relevant to the character.  What she's doing is simultaneous world building/character development.  Carey teaches you about the world her character lives in through the character's experience throughout the book.  I'm quite impressed with how she did that.


----------



## Angelicpersona (Jun 21, 2013)

I'm kind of winging it honestly. My story has changed tacts so many times that it's had to. I discovered recently though that one of my main characters is kind of the driving force behind my world building. She's very young, and is traveling with someone who's much MUCH older, and she asks all these questions about how and where and why. I've figured out more trying to answer her questions than I would have if I sat down and planned it out. There's still tons left for my other characters to explore and learn about though. I love it, it's like having my own giant sandbox to mold into what I will =D


----------



## Lewdog (Jun 21, 2013)

Cadence said:


> Wow, I'm enthralled by the awe-inspiring complexity of it all.
> 
> There's more depth in the <100 pages that make up Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde than there are in the entire trilogy of the Hunger Games.
> 
> ...



Wow, the quote that youth is wasted on the youth has been proven to me today.  Come back and talk to me in another 20 years when you have experienced more in life, and tell me if you still think everything is so easy.  Then again you might be one of those savants that can recite pi to the 1,000 digit, I don't know.  One thing I do know, is I'd rather be better prepared than not prepared enough when undertaking a task that is going to take up a great deal of my life, like writing a novel.


----------



## Jeko (Jun 21, 2013)

> One thing I do know, is I'd rather be better prepared than not prepared enough when undertaking a task that is going to take up a great deal of my life, like writing a novel.



You may be shooting yourself in the literary foot, is all I'm saying. World-building, as InkwellMachine put so well, is a trap that so many fall into. Yes, it has its uses. So does manure.

And writing _is _easy. It's writing a story worth reading that's hard, and that'll take years and years whatever you do about the process. 

I'm completely for preparation. For me, preparation is the first draft. Of the story.

And don't use my age in conversation - it's the equivalent of covering your ears and saying 'la la la'. See, now I have no interest in talking to you about this anymore.


----------



## Skodt (Jun 21, 2013)

Age really should not intervene with the process. I mean look at the Author of Eragon. He was 15 when he started writing the novel. It isn't a ground breaking piece, but it is a fun little read. He controlled an entire world, and made up his own facets to accommodate the world. 

With that said everyone has different approaches. Not everything comes with ease to everyone.


----------



## wancow (Jun 21, 2013)

Angelicpersona said:


> I'm kind of winging it honestly. My story has changed tacts so many times that it's had to. I discovered recently though that one of my main characters is kind of the driving force behind my world building. She's very young, and is traveling with someone who's much MUCH older, and she asks all these questions about how and where and why. I've figured out more trying to answer her questions than I would have if I sat down and planned it out. There's still tons left for my other characters to explore and learn about though. I love it, it's like having my own giant sandbox to mold into what I will =D


The example I used above was Kusiel's Dart, and what your describing is exactly what was done in that book.


----------



## Jeko (Jun 21, 2013)

> Not everything comes with ease to everyone.



I used to find the process of writing quite hard, until I did two things. 1) Discipline. 10:00-11:00am is writing time for me. 2) I worked out that my difficulty with writing was due to wanting to write something good, so now I consider it okay to write something bad.


----------



## Skodt (Jun 21, 2013)

^ and that works for you. But don't fall into the lull and think it is the path for everyone. I find myself similar I write every afternoon. I take weekends off to stay fresh. I too worry little about my masterpiece, and worry about telling a story. If the things I write are bad; I try to fix them when I am done writing. Though I don't think everyone is this way, nor should they be if it does not come with ease to them.


----------



## Robert_S (Jun 21, 2013)

Jon M said:


> Yeah I don't get how anybody can like a genre other than literary, either.



I think it's a look to a possible better future if something miraculous occurs or a potentially worse one if we keep on the current path. My script is dealing with this as the protagonist attempts to influence human thinking despite political and corporate ambitions.


----------



## Robert_S (Jun 21, 2013)

Cadence said:


> Really? The Hunger Game's world is shallow and the creative mind of the writer is more than capable of keeping track of a handful of important ideas.
> 
> As I said, I'm strongly against the 'world-building' phase of writing - unless the writing is for more than a story, writing the story _is _world-building with the exception that you are actually writing the story.



Well, for my scripted story, there is 12,000 years of back story that needs to be intro'd as the trilogy unfolds. From the leading stressor that lead to the fall and extinction of the Okahn and creation of Ro'shaan and BES to the passing on of memories of the past to the story as it occurs for the human race of the not so distant future. I don't want to have to retcon anything because of a misused word or sentence.  People who follow IPs and story histories can be very exacting.

I think it's sufficient to rough an idea though, fill in as you go. Sometimes, devices you'll use in your story may give a reason to make a small change to the backstory before it's anything is released.


----------



## InkwellMachine (Jun 21, 2013)

> Wow, the quote that youth is wasted on the youth has been proven to me today. Come back and talk to me in another 20 years when you have experienced more in life, and tell me if you still think everything is so easy. Then again you might be one of those savants that can recite pi to the 1,000 digit, I don't know. One thing I do know, is I'd rather be better prepared than not prepared enough when undertaking a task that is going to take up a great deal of my life, like writing a novel.


I don't think this is an issue of refusing preparation--it's necessary to prepare if you're going to write a story at all. As I said, though, world-building is for your stories setting preparation, not writing. Like all the other facets, setting will affect other parts of your book, but it doesn't deserve any more time than your characters or your plot or your narrative. That's why it's best to just jump into the writing; you need to use all of these things. And writing a crappy first draft is fine. When you go back to revise, you'll figure out what needs extra explaining.

As for your comment on age, don't be stupid. Just because someone disagrees on how good the world-building is in a series doesn't mean they hate preparation or that they're _too young to understand_. Do you realize how full of it you made yourself sound? You don't need to be a savant to write a good novel without preparing an atlas for your world. Don't make generalizations like that.


----------



## Lewdog (Jun 21, 2013)

InkwellMachine said:


> I don't think this is an issue of refusing preparation--it's necessary to prepare if you're going to write a story at all. As I said, though, world-building is for your stories setting preparation, not writing. Like all the other facets, setting will affect other parts of your book, but it doesn't deserve any more time than your characters or your plot or your narrative. That's why it's best to just jump into the writing; you need to use all of these things. And writing a crappy first draft is fine. When you go back to revise, you'll figure out what needs extra explaining.
> 
> As for your comment on age, don't be stupid. Just because someone disagrees on how good the world-building is in a series doesn't mean they hate preparation or that they're _too young to understand_. Do you realize how full of it you made yourself sound? You don't need to be a savant to write a good novel without preparing an atlas for your world. Don't make generalizations like that.



No, but there are certain things in life that you can only learn through experience...which comes from age.  I've made plenty of mistakes in my life, and I used the lines at the time:

"Just because it didn't work out for you or someone else, doesn't mean it won't work out for me."

"How can I learn things in life without at least failing at some point or another?"

"I would rather try and fail, than go through the rest of my life asking, 'What if?'"

All of these might sound like pretty good excuses for taking chances in life, but NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING beats the advice of a person who has already lived the experiences of life that you are about to attempt.  I learned this lesson the hard way, and it is now the wisest information I can ever share with someone that is now in the same position I once was.  If I had listened to the advice of people I would be 37 years old and only 5 years away from retiring, making over $20 an hour with 5 weeks of vacation, 2 weeks of sick time, and one week of personal time off per year.  That's like over a week off every two months!  

So you can stick your fingers in your ears and ignore me, or you can think I sound like I'm full of it, but age does matter MOST of the time, because experience only comes with age, and experience is invaluable.


----------



## Jeko (Jun 22, 2013)

All very well and good, but you still used The Hunger Games as an example of depth. So I don't value your experience much when it comes to matters of writing, Lewdog, no matter what your age is. Likewise, there are people your age who disagree with you, so you can't pull an 'experience' card which immediately makes your points more valid.

Avoid talking about age, Lewdog. _Discrimination _against age is against the rules in this forum, as you should know, so it's just not worth bringing up. It doesn't make you any more right, and yes, it does make you sound like you are full of it.


----------



## JosephB (Jun 22, 2013)

^ One of my neighbors has a daughter in college and she’s taking a creative writing class – she just turned 20. She asked me to read one of her stories just the other day -- I reluctantly agreed, because I was afraid it wasn’t going to be any good. Boy -- was I surprised. There were minor problems with her mechanics, but the story had amazing depth -- and insights into parenting, love and grief that seemed way beyond her years. I suspect that what she lacks in experience she has more than made up for with her powers of observation and a strong imagination. I’ve known her a long time -- she’s clearly a girl who pays attention and thinks about things -- and now it appears she can effectively put those thoughts and observations down on a page and craft them into a really good story. That's something I can’t say for some writers who are twice or three times her age. 

Another good example is one of my favorite novels -- _The Heart is Lonely Hunter_ -- a beautifully written and poignant examination of the human condition -- written by Carson McCullers when she was only 22. So yeah -- age and experience can count for something -- but it’s not a requirement to telling a moving, believable story.  And I certainly know people who have plenty of each who haven’t learned a thing.


----------



## Lewdog (Jun 22, 2013)

Cadence said:


> All very well and good, but you still used The Hunger Games as an example of depth. So I don't value your experience much when it comes to matters of writing, Lewdog, no matter what your age is. Likewise, there are people your age who disagree with you, so you can't pull an 'experience' card which immediately makes your points more valid.
> 
> Avoid talking about age, Lewdog. _Discrimination _against age is against the rules in this forum, as you should know, so it's just not worth bringing up. It doesn't make you any more right, and yes, it does make you sound like you are full of it.



If you want to bring up that discrimination against age is part of forum rules, I must say that personal attacks like saying someone is "full of it," is also against the rules.  

You can bring up here and there some successes of young writers, but for every one of those successes, I can bring up 100 or more by writers who have more real life experiences.  I really don't get how you can say that _The Hunger Games_ doesn't have depth, when it talks about *12* different districts, all of which has its own unique traits.  I couldn't possibly imagine trying to write a novel using facts and descriptions about *12* different communities and continue to make _consistent_ references to them throughout the novel without having carefully planned notes to refer to during the writing process.  Not having them would be distracting to the creative writing process, time consuming, and irresponsible.  

I'm not going to continue with this conversation anymore because it's obvious you've already got everything figured out.  Good luck with your writing!


----------



## wancow (Jun 22, 2013)

Cadence, Discriminating against experience is... sorry, it's ludicrous.  Age (usually) brings life experience.

Lewdog, I disagree with you on Advice.  Experience is, IMHO, far more valuable


----------



## Skodt (Jun 22, 2013)

Age may bring about more experience and wisdom, but it is not required to write well. Too many authors have wrote best sellers when they were young. It is rare that anyone over 50 has a best selling novel jump out. Not saying it doesn't happen mind you. Also another thing is in terms of world building in fantasy genre Hunger games is very basic. With that said I enjoyed the first two books of the series; the third was like the author gave up and called it in, but that is another topic. The world for Hunger games had 12 districts, but you never entered all 12, and the ones besides 12,13, and the capital you never really stayed in any place long enough to garner much information. Just their occupation and color in most.


----------



## JosephB (Jun 22, 2013)

Cadence stated an opinion – and it didn’t have anything to with age or experience. It was brought into the conversation only because we know he’s one of the younger members. It was a pointless little dig and has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic.


----------



## Skodt (Jun 22, 2013)

^ This is true. Which is why I stated experience isn't everything*. But it does have its place. Like all things in life no one thing rules the coop. *


----------



## wancow (Jun 22, 2013)

Skodt said:


> Age may bring about more experience and wisdom, but it is not required to write well. Too many authors have wrote best sellers when they were young. It is rare that anyone over 50 has a best selling novel jump out.



Raymond Chandler (The Big Sleep) First Published at age 45
Laura Ingals Wilder (Little House on the Prairie) first published at age 60
Richard Adams (Watership Down) first published at age 52
James Mitchner (Tales of the South Pacific) first published at age 40
Donald Ray Polluck (The Devil All The Time) first published at age 55
Helen DeWitt (The Last Samurai) first published at age 44
The Marquis de Sade (Justine) first published at age 47


----------



## Jeko (Jun 22, 2013)

Come on, wancow. As JosephB said, this is off-topic.


----------



## Skodt (Jun 22, 2013)

^ I did say that I know it happened. If you read my statement I said it happened less. Also to be fair four of the ones you brought to light are under 50; which was the age I said. I can just name a lot more young authors under 50; than I can over 50. Which means age means nothing when putting words to paper.

Anyhow back on topic. How do you guys go about building a world? What has worked best for you?


----------



## wancow (Jun 22, 2013)

Skodt, experience, however, has everything to do with it.  John Grisham's fiction about legal battles are amazing.  His fiction about espionage... not so much. He's a lawyer, not a spy.

In my current projects I have to keep a journal so I can apply details consistently.  Building a world is not just about places, it's about politics and society, mores and customs. If those don't make sense, or are applied inconsistently, then the story begins to lose credibility, at least in my opinion.


----------



## Jeko (Jun 22, 2013)

> inconsistently



I do have a small bone to pick with this; it comes from a quote from Colin Greenland on plotting I came across a while back:

'...you can go back and adjust it afterwards. Whether you plan your story beforehand or not, if the climax turns out to be the revelation that the mad professor's anti-gravity device actually works, you must go back and silently delete all those flying cars buzzing around the city on page one. If you want to reveal something, you need to hide it properly first.'


----------



## Skodt (Jun 22, 2013)

wancow said:


> Skodt, experience, however, has everything to do with it.  John Grisham's fiction about legal battles are amazing.  His fiction about espionage... not so much. He's a lawyer, not a spy.
> 
> In my current projects I have to keep a journal so I can apply details consistently.  Building a world is not just about places, it's about politics and society, mores and customs. If those don't make sense, or are applied inconsistently, then the story begins to lose credibility, at least in my opinion.



Last time I will comment on age/experience in this thread.

Christopher Paolini- Age 15- Eragon
S.E Hinton- Age 18- The outsiders
Jack London- Age 27- Call of the wild
Douglas Adams-27- Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy
Mary Shelly- 19- Frankenstein. 

This is just to show even at a young age you can write well. I have noted that experience works, but it clearly is not everything. Just like any other tool; sometimes it is not the only path.


----------



## Lewdog (Jun 22, 2013)

wancow said:


> Skodt, experience, however, has everything to do with it.  John Grisham's fiction about legal battles are amazing.  His fiction about espionage... not so much. He's a lawyer, not a spy.
> 
> In my current projects I have to keep a journal so I can apply details consistently.  Building a world is not just about places, it's about politics and society, mores and customs. If those don't make sense, or are applied inconsistently, then the story begins to lose credibility, at least in my opinion.



There are VERY few absolutes in the world, just like not all stories are complex.  Though when a story does deal with complex issues, or has several moving parts, why not be prepared?

Let me post this hypothetical:

You go to the store and you buy a bicycle and it came in a box where you had to put it together yourself.  Which method makes more sense:  A.  You look at the instructions to see what tools you will need for the job and you go to the garage once to collect everything it will take to put the bicycle together, or B.  You start putting the bicycle together and each time you need another tool you make a separate trip to the garage to get each tool?

Why make your job harder than it should be?


----------



## Lewdog (Jun 22, 2013)

Skodt said:


> Last time I will comment on age/experience in this thread.
> 
> Christopher Paolini- Age 15- Eragon
> S.E Hinton- Age 18- The outsiders
> ...



27 isn't young...


----------



## JosephB (Jun 22, 2013)

wancow said:


> Skodt, experience, however, has everything to do with it.  John Grisham's fiction about legal battles are amazing.  His fiction about espionage... not so much. He's a lawyer, not a spy.



I’ll add one more thing -- when experience was brought into the thread, it wasn’t about how life experience can be of benefit when writing fiction -- it was about the validity of an _approach_ to writing -- whether or not that approach is more efficient. The two are apples and oranges. Someone was told, you’re too young to have an opinion about this -- get back to me in x number years. Of course, that's a non-argument when it comes to the process of writing. Make your case based on the merits of the approach -- and leave age and experience out of it.


----------



## Skodt (Jun 22, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> 27 isn't young...



27 is very young :chargrined:. Most people at 27 are really just starting life. They are looking towards a family and a good job. Maybe a house.


----------



## Lewdog (Jun 22, 2013)

Skodt said:


> 27 is very young :chargrined:. Most people at 27 are really just starting life. They are looking towards a family and a good job. Maybe a house.



I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here.  At 27 if a person stayed on track, they would be 5 years removed from college, which in many jobs would already mean advancement.  I just don't see that as young.


----------



## Skodt (Jun 22, 2013)

If such person only went for a BA. Even then it would probably be more along 4 years. Also their experience would be low level. Yes now they may be ready for advancement; if their job even has advancement with only a BA. All in all they are still under 30 and in the prime of their life.


----------



## Lewdog (Jun 22, 2013)

Skodt said:


> If such person only went for a BA. Even then it would probably be more along 4 years. Also their experience would be low level. Yes now they may be ready for advancement; if their job even has advancement with only a BA. All in all they are still under 30 and in the prime of their life.



You just said they would be in the 'prime' of their life...when someone is in the 'prime' of their life is generally when they have the most success.  So that wouldn't be considered young.


----------



## Skodt (Jun 22, 2013)

I think prime is young. Once your are past your prime you are old. To say life experience happens before 27 is quite redundant on your part. If you think 27 is experienced then experience must come in your teens? When one is quite reckless. 27 is when life starts to get real. Maybe a little older than that even. A home, children, maybe getting married. Seems about time that life experience would really kick into gear, not when you have already garnered it.


----------



## Lewdog (Jun 22, 2013)

Skodt said:


> I think prime is young. Once your are past your prime you are old. To say life experience happens before 27 is quite redundant on your part. If you think 27 is experienced then experience must come in your teens? When one is quite reckless. 27 is when life starts to get real. Maybe a little older than that even. A home, children, maybe getting married. Seems about time that life experience would really kick into gear, not when you have already garnered it.



No, I think life experiences start late in high school and/or when a person starts college and is out on their own.  

According to the World Health Organization in 2011, the life expectancy of a man was 76 and a woman 81 in the United States.  At 27 years old, that would mean someone would either be at, or already into the second-third of their life.  Now, as has been discussed already, nothing is absolute, and a person's life experiences are going to vary depending on what type of life they live.  A person that either goes straight from high school to college or the military, is going to gain a lot more than someone that lives in their parents basement playing World of Warcraft and painting Star Trek models until they turn 27.

So who do you think is going to be better at writing a novel about a world wide apocalypse (given equal writing skill), a person that lived in their parents basement all their life, or someone that traveled the world in the military fighting for their country?


----------



## Cran (Jun 22, 2013)

Skodt said:


> Anyhow back on topic. How do you guys go about building a world? What has worked best for you?


The OP has asked that the discussion move back on topic, and has been ignored. I also note other attempts to end this side-track. 
Now I will ask that the discussion get back on topic.


----------



## Dictarium (Jun 22, 2013)

That kind of Tolkien-esque world creating is a little silly and arrogant, IMO. Who's to say your vision should be so big as to eventually encompass all of that? Make it up as you go and write it down along the way if you must but don't spend months working on something like that, especially not for every piece you work on.


----------



## InkwellMachine (Jun 22, 2013)

I don't remember whether I've said it already on this thread, and I'm feeling a bit too lazy to go back, but here's one of the major issues I have with world-building: Usually you aren't building a world. Usually you're building a setting, which includes every aspect of that universe that is relevant to any story that takes place there. Needless to say, you cannot possibly predict all the stories that have an will happen in the entirety of your 'world' (which is not the truth, of course, but the point should be clear), so building a world with all the necessary information for each of those stories is too great a task.

Best not to think of world-building as world-building. Think of it as setting-building, because that's really what it's for. You need information relevant to whatever story you're writing, so you build rules for the setting that make that information explicable and coherent to the setting-thus-far. 

People like analogies, so for the purpose of my explanation, let's think of world-building as a tank and the story as some nebulous, gaseous substance. What you're looking to do while world-building is trap that substance in a tank that will both hold your story (keep it from dispersing) and make it look attractive at the same time. To do either of those things, you must first familiarize yourself with the story. Then you can more adequately select the enclosure. 

My point, in summation, is that story always comes first. World-building, like everything else--and like Pat said--is only in service to the story.


----------



## patskywriter (Jun 22, 2013)

I have yet to survive a book that uses info-dumping to set the stage. I much prefer that the author assumes that I can catch on as I continue reading. As a big-city black girl living in a segregated community, *most* stories that I read took place in strange, otherworldly settings—and my favorite authors (after I outgrew the Happy Hollisters) were Ray Bradbury, John Steinbeck, and Hermann Hesse. I preferred not having my little hand held along the way and I'm of the same opinion even now. Get on with the story, I say.


----------



## Jeko (Jun 24, 2013)

Had a thought the other day; if people are going to do a world-building phase/plan/whatever, then why not do it _after _the first draft? Then, you have the rough outline of your story and you should be able to mould your world more effectively around your story's needs.


----------



## Apple Ice (Jun 24, 2013)

Cadence said:


> Had a thought the other day; if people are going to do a world-building phase/plan/whatever, then why not do it _after _the first draft? Then, you have the rough outline of your story and you should be able to mould your world more effectively around your story's needs.




Some people need the plan to get the 1st draft done in the first place. They may stick religiously to the plan and it could very well work for them. What you just suggested would most probably work for me, though. 

Also, a book I'm reading now has done something I've never seen before. I has a map of the world (common enough) but on the map it has pictures of certain things in certain areas to make it more easy to understand. A picture of a sea serpent, etc. It also had a list of characters and a family tree and how the characters are related to each other, if there is a relationship there. This is all before the book has even started.

I'm guessing you might prefer them tell all this through the story. There isn't a lack of story there though, and it doesn't take away from plot or any other element for that matter. This is just saving time and hasn't disturbed the flow of it at all. This is one of the best ways to information dump and he's done it in such a way that it's actually interesting as well. 

I know this isn't strictly to do with planning (although I'm sure he has planned this through) but i saw earlier you saying you hate information dumps. It's certainly given me food for thought anyway.


----------



## Jeko (Jun 24, 2013)

I skip over maps if I see them at the start of a book. They're not characters, so I'm not interested in them.


----------



## Apple Ice (Jun 24, 2013)

Yes well, I wasn't directly saying this with you as the reader in mind. If you think the Hunger Games wasn't up to much then your taste is a bit more divine than most. 

For the general public this approach would work very well. Actually, this series is incredibly successful so it has worked very well. Just a credible option for those who are wondering about how to information dump in a creative and worthwhile way.


----------



## Jeko (Jun 24, 2013)

> If you think the Hunger Games wasn't up to much then your taste is a bit more divine than most.



I did enjoy the books - they are written with an emotional, commanding tone and a good sense of pace. Nothing new, and nothing groundbreaking, but a decent trilogy. Collins crafts a small world with larger messages and implications, woven well into the plot, though the cracks begin to show the further you get into it. For a character-and-emotion-centered novel like the Hunger Games I don't believe much world-building would be necessary, and there isn't much evidence of intricate world-building displayed in the narrative; not, at least, in comparison to contemporary authors' work.


----------



## Robert_S (Jun 24, 2013)

Cadence said:


> Had a thought the other day; if people are going to do a world-building phase/plan/whatever, then why not do it _after _the first draft? Then, you have the rough outline of your story and you should be able to mould your world more effectively around your story's needs.



I had the rough outline for the first two scripts before I put the word one in the computer.


----------



## wancow (Jun 24, 2013)

Cadence said:


> Had a thought the other day; if people are going to do a world-building phase/plan/whatever, then why not do it _after _the first draft? Then, you have the rough outline of your story and you should be able to mould your world more effectively around your story's needs.



Wait, what are you saying???? Are you actually saying a Fiction Writer should have a STORY before he makes the Backdrop and Props?


----------



## Jeko (Jun 24, 2013)

> Are you actually saying a Fiction Writer should have a STORY before he makes the Backdrop and Props?



Yes. The story is the main focus, the driving force of the character's decisions and the reason the world exists in the first place.

Not sure if you are generally concerned or being sarcastic.


----------



## wancow (Jun 24, 2013)

I'm being my normal self-agrrandizing self.


----------



## Jeko (Jun 24, 2013)

You spelled 'aggrandizing' wrong. :wink:


----------



## wancow (Jun 24, 2013)

yes I did...


----------



## Apple Ice (Jun 24, 2013)

You are going to be hard pressed to find groundbreaking books I think. Thanks for the review though


----------



## Gamer_2k4 (Jun 24, 2013)

World-building is an excuse to not write.  That's all.

I poked around with planning my story's world before I began writing.  I had plenty of ideas for how things could work, how characters would go about doing things, places of interest, government institutions, all that.

None of it ended up mattering.  I ultimately told the story through a single viewpoint, and that character had no reason to know or even care about any of the things I had planned.  The novel became HIS story, not the story of my world.  The scope shrank down drastically, and I believe my work is much, much better for it.

If you want to have a world, build a world.  If you want to have a novel, write.


----------



## Tyrannohotep (Jun 24, 2013)

As fun as world-building can be, I'm taking the build-as-I-go approach for my current fantasy project. I agree that too much preliminary world-building can distract from the actual writing process.


----------



## Lewdog (Jun 24, 2013)

I prefer to plan on how I'll spend all the money I'm going to make...before I actually write the book.


----------



## Robdemanc (Jun 24, 2013)

My idea on world building is that if I cannot do it in my head, and have to start writing things down about the world, then my story has become too complicated and I should rethink the entire thing.  But I don't write anything that is complete fantasy, my worlds are either here and now, or near future.


----------



## Skodt (Jun 24, 2013)

Fantasy fully takes a little more planning than a brief summary in the head. If you don't make a map; then at least you must keep notes. If you do not then your memory is above par. Unless of course you use just a single setting, but most Fantasy you find yourself exploring an entire world. You have to have the basics to remember the surroundings, and stories of your people and cities. You do not need a full blown map, or a detailed outline of the world, but a few basic notes here and there.


----------



## Jeko (Jun 24, 2013)

> Fantasy fully takes a little more planning than a brief summary in the head. If you don't make a map; then at least you must keep notes.



I do it all in my head - then again, I do have a very large head. 

The story you write can act as the notes, if you need any - and they can be useful. Anything that isn't part of the story, you don't need to have notes on, unless you're making the notes because you're on the go or in similar circumstances. Then, once you've used those notes, they can be recycled into something more useful, like toilet paper.


----------

