# Is This Considered A Cliché?



## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 26, 2021)

edit: Oh, the humiliation! Maybe if I only get a small number of the same people replying, I can justify that mistake. 

I often make notes when writing, for other stories I'll be working on next. I'm thinking of re-purposing the voice I use for MotherHUD for use in a children's story, but I'm also working on another voice for a detective story. I wrote this and I know it's based on a well known joke but wondered if it's now common to see it used like this. I've never read detective stories or written one before:




> The *spanner-eyed* starlet shifted her knees smoothly from one side of the chair to the other, like a shark rolling in on a minnow.


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## EternalGreen (Feb 26, 2021)

I guess my objection is you should be showing us her sexiness, not telling us about it.

I've never heard the term "spanner-eyed" before, so I'm guessing the answer is no.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 26, 2021)

EternalGreen said:


> I guess my objection is you should be showing us her sexiness, not telling us about it.
> 
> I've never heard the term "spanner-eyed" before, so I'm guessing the answer is no.



Well, the joke is 'she had spanner eyes. Every time she looks at you your nuts tighten'.


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## Llyralen (Feb 26, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> edit: Oh, the humiliation! Maybe if I only get a small number of the same people replying, I can justify that mistake.
> 
> I often make notes when writing, for other stories I'll be working on next. I'm thinking of re-purposing the voice I use for MotherHUD for use in a children's story, but I'm also working on another voice for a detective story. I wrote this and I know it's based on a well known joke but wondered if it's now common to see it used like this. I've never read detective stories or written one before:



i had to look up spanner.  It’s a wrench?   Wrenching eyes?   
I like the shark and the minnow, but having to look up something is a distraction.   I don’t know what % of your readership know about tools?   It is describing her from a very male perspective, and it might exclude some readers?  I mean I feel a bit left out on it.   Describing sexy can include everyone, or can be oriented to your main character... like he could feel like his nuts are being tightened and that’s not exclusionary because your MC is just discussing his own experience, so that can even seem sexy to me to hear as a hetero cis-female.   But describing someone as doing anything to everyone listening’s nuts means I don’t have that anatomy and am excluded from the general.  if it happened a bunch, I’d stop reading the book since I would feel like an interloper, a clear “girls keep out” on the clubhouse. 

This kind of thing happens often enough that I think most women just kind of blink.  I love the Colbert Late Show and usually love Colbert but often listening to comedians Im expected to all of a sudden apply a joke to myself that assumes that I have certain anatomy.  It’s not that I don’t appreciate the joke, but it is an immediate “I don’t have that, am I supposed to be here?”  It takes about two blinks to decide that They just didn’t think about it.  That I think we women are way too used to and I’m realizing men are not used to this at all and don’t even read books where the main character is a women.   And I am finding that men sometimes don’t know what that feels like.   I’ve been seeing it a lot lately.   The experience of the “two blinks” gives people a lot of understanding. 

Not meaning to be harsh, my friend... I just have been thinking about this a lot lately...


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 26, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> i had to look up spanner.  It’s a wrench?   Wrenching eyes?
> I like the shark and the minnow, but having to look up something is a distraction.   I don’t know what % of your readership know about tools?   It is describing her from a very male perspective, and it might exclude some readers?  I mean I feel a bit left out on it.   Describing sexy can include everyone, or can be oriented to your main character... like he could feel like his nuts are being tightened and that’s not exclusionary because your MC is just discussing his own experience, so that can even seem sexy to me to hear as a hetero cis-female.   But describing someone as doing anything to everyone listening’s nuts means I don’t have that anatomy and am excluded from the general.  if it happened a bunch, I’d stop reading the book since I would feel like an interloper, a clear “girls keep out” on the clubhouse.
> 
> This kind of thing happens often enough that I think most women just kind of blink.  I love the Colbert Late Show and usually love Colbert but often listening to comedians Im expected to all of a sudden apply a joke to myself that assumes that I have certain anatomy.  It’s not that I don’t appreciate the joke, but it is an immediate “I don’t have that, am I supposed to be here?”  It takes about two blinks to decide that They just didn’t think about it.  That I think we women are way too used to and I’m realizing men are not used to this at all and don’t even read books where the main character is a women.   And I am finding that men sometimes don’t know what that feels like.   I’ve been seeing it a lot lately.   The experience of the “two blinks” gives people a lot of understanding.
> ...



This is one sentence out of a probable 15 page short story. I'll be sure to add other descriptions too ...  It's amazing how you've already got this pegged as a male orientated story from ONE sentence lol

But, if it excludes some people, so be it.


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## luckyscars (Feb 26, 2021)

We don't use the word 'spanner' in the USA, we call it a 'wrench'. You must obviously modify your language accordingly because, as Americans, the entire world revolves around us.

Jokes aside, I don't think it's a cliché but it is kind of corny, kind of a dad-ism. If that's the vibe, it's fine.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 26, 2021)

luckyscars said:


> We don't use the word 'spanner' in the USA, we call it a 'wrench'. You must obviously modify your language accordingly because, as Americans, the entire world revolves around us.
> 
> Jokes aside, I don't think it's a cliché but it is kind of corny, kind of a dad-ism. If that's the vibe, it's fine.



I don't really know the tone I'm going to set yet. This just got me to wondering whether it's a cliche or not.


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## luckyscars (Feb 26, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> I don't really know the tone I'm going to set yet. This just got me to wondering whether it's a cliche or not.



Okay so, I jest, but the United States = the by far the biggest market for English language fiction so while that does not mean you should write as an American, there's probably better than a 50% chance whoever reads your work wont know what you mean by 'spanner eyed', at least not immediately. It's not the kind of thing you can just suss out from context, like figuring out 'tea' means 'dinner'. 

For something to be a cliche it has to be widely used and understood. I googled 'spanner eyes' and found one entry on Urban Dictionary and one on a Reddit page (both alluding to your joke) so nah, I think you're safe regarding cliches. Like I say, a little pervy-old-man-at-the-pub is all.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 26, 2021)

luckyscars said:


> Okay so, I jest, but the United States = the by far the biggest market for English language fiction so while that does not mean you should write as an American, there's probably better than a 50% chance whoever reads your work wont know what you mean by 'spanner eyed', at least not immediately. It's not the kind of thing you can just suss out from context, like figuring out 'tea' means 'dinner'.
> 
> For something to be a cliche it has to be widely used and understood. I googled 'spanner eyes' and found one entry on Urban Dictionary and one on a Reddit page (both alluding to your joke) so nah, I think you're safe regarding cliches. Like I say,* a little pervy-old-man-at-the-pub* is all.



Guilty!


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## Theglasshouse (Feb 26, 2021)

Show and tell is a balancing act. I don't know how women readers would react. But depicting women horribly has turned off some readers that are women. To talk about her sexiness imo might be something a female reader might object to doing. That is they might want if it has a reality (as in her personality as well) since they are the real readership to have good female characters. Most women are the readers of fiction works. Not to mention while it depends on the genre it seems that love and sex novels are devoured by female readers. So I don't know other statistics, but that is how I would depict her. Be sensitive to what other people think. If a romance develops in the story, even better for female readers. Given the fact that I don't know how writers handle women really well. It seems to vary greatly since the opinion is so divided. Men can get it wrong a lot of the time. I do think sexiness is something an audience can handle with maturity if toned down. You don't necessarily need examples but a sex scene in a story I don't think sells a lot of books. The only examples belong to the love genre in the first place or romance.


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## Matchu (Feb 26, 2021)

*99.9% of any UK audience would misunderstand 'spanner-eyed' as some reference to eye shape.*

*If, god forbid, they had the misfortune to learn your term was an allusion to 'balls tightening' ...it is very offensive, and gross...suggesting 'cliche' is gross also, unless I miss, and I am happy to miss this joke.*

*St John Tee, vicar.*


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## luckyscars (Feb 26, 2021)

Isn't spanner also a UK kid's slang for somebody with mental retardation?

 I swear I heard it in a TV show at some point? _"OI REF WHAT THE FOOK YOU DOING!?! THAT WAS A PENALTY, YOU FOOKIN SPANNER!"_


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## bdcharles (Feb 26, 2021)

luckyscars said:


> Isn't spanner also a UK kid's slang for somebody with mental retardation?
> 
> I swear I heard it in a TV show at some point? _"OI REF WHAT THE FOOK YOU DOING!?! THAT WAS A PENALTY, YOU FOOKIN SPANNER!"_



It's just a name that you call someone. "Dave? Great bloke. Total spanner."


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## luckyscars (Feb 26, 2021)

bdcharles said:


> It's just a name that you call someone. "Dave? Great bloke. Total spanner."



...for literally no reason?


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 26, 2021)

Theglasshouse said:


> Show and tell is a balancing act. I don't know how women readers would react. But depicting women horribly has turned off some readers that are women. To talk about her sexiness imo might be something a female reader might object to doing. That is they might want if it has a reality (as in her personality as well) since they are the real readership to have good female characters. Most women are the readers of fiction works. Not to mention while it depends on the genre it seems that love and sex novels are devoured by female readers. So I don't know other statistics, but that is how I would depict her. Be sensitive to what other people think. If a romance develops in the story, even better for female readers. Given the fact that I don't know how writers handle women really well. It seems to vary greatly since the opinion is so divided. Men can get it wrong a lot of the time. I do think sexiness is something an audience can handle with maturity if toned down. You don't necessarily need examples but a sex scene in a story I don't think sells a lot of books. The only examples belong to the love genre in the first place or romance.



One thing I will never do is be sensitive to what others think. I write what entertains me. If some people like it, that's great, if they don't, so what? In real life, of course, because you are meeting people. In fiction, no, because you are seeking an audience. 

But I have to point out, this is ONE sentence that may or may not appear in a story, a story I haven't even thought up yet. LOL. I was just curious and wondered if it's considered a cliche.


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## Matchu (Feb 26, 2021)

'Spanner' is a cuss word like twit, fool, jerk.


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## bdcharles (Feb 26, 2021)

luckyscars said:


> ...for literally no reason?



For the very good reason that Dave is, objectively, a total spanner, and that you love him despite it. In fact you love him because of it.

It's about as close as us English get to actual emot**ns...


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## Matchu (Feb 26, 2021)

Put into context...in a story...in the words of an evil overlord...'his balls tightening' etc...might save 1000 words of character description, at least.

Saving grace.


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## Theglasshouse (Feb 26, 2021)

> One thing I will never do is be sensitive to what others think.



I will agree to disagree just because if your sensitive in some ways you can gain an audience. This science fiction author's work attracted attention from controversy (not sure if it is the same person who wrote the atrocity exhibition and I read some criticism to balance this of Lovecraft who was doing some good things creatively but seemed to anger critics). There are no rules. I just disagree bv reasoning it. The best-selling entertainment seems to be for the general audience such as harry potter maybe.


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## luckyscars (Feb 26, 2021)

Matchu said:


> Put into context...in a story...in the words of an evil overlord...'his balls tightening' etc...might save 1000 words of character description, at least.



Would it be inappropriate to also point out that no man in history's balls have ever tightened in response to an attractive woman other than one made of actual snow? This is on a par with 'When Dave smiled at her, Dawn felt her nipples immediately harden like bullets'. It's not an actual thing.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 26, 2021)

Theglasshouse said:


> I will agree to disagree just because if your sensitive in some ways you can gain an audience. This science fiction author's work attracted attention from controversy (not sure if it is the same person who wrote the atrocity exhibition and I read some criticism to balance this of Lovecraft who was doing some good things creatively but seemed to anger critics). There are no rules. I just disagree bv reasoning it. The best-selling entertainment seems to be for the general audience such as harry potter maybe.



Well, yeah, but I'm currently re-finding my skills and honing them. If I ever get to a point where I'm going to be published 'but only if this is changed', then maybe I'll compromise. Until then I'll write what pleases me regardless. Writing what entertains you is a good way of learning to enjoy the process. Writing by numbers is the quickest way of learning to loath what you do. 

Having said I'd compromise, it's not guaranteed. I have a certain amount of integrity and regardless of whether it's the difference between being published or not, if the suggested changes change the heart of the piece, stuff being published. I'll write another and see how that flies. It's not as if I'm stuck in one particular voice or genre. I'm sure people would have no problem with Coats For Wings or The Glass Tulip. They may however have a problem with MotherHUD. Swings and roundabouts.


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## Matchu (Feb 26, 2021)

You made my balls chuckle


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## Matchu (Feb 26, 2021)

not you, oh dear.

You too, my love.


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## Matchu (Feb 26, 2021)

You must write with abandon @AZ.  Stay strong, you are a hero.  Teasing means people like you x


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## Llyralen (Feb 26, 2021)

Luckyscars had a good example, except that, Az, your sentence went a few steps further: 
1.  You have to look up what is meant.
2. Unless you’re a man maybe you don’t quite understand the connection you’re supposed to get between wrench and nuts.

I’m hoping my example shows what that’s like from the other side.  
Do these sound male-inclusive? 

“It was ‘smuggling raisins’ weather.” 
“The soldier’s legs were in Midol-popping day-1 pain and fatigue.”
”On this planet smells were as strong as in the first trimester and just as nauseating.” 

Now I just want to keep writing these... how fun is this?  Men just have to deal with it? 

The cup duck-taped under the stint worked like a Milkies, every drop was precious.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 26, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> Luckyscars had a good example, except that, Az, your sentence went a few steps further:
> 1.  You have to look up what is meant.
> 2. Unless you’re a man maybe you don’t quite understand the connection you’re supposed to get between wrench and nuts.   I’m hoping my example shows what that’s like from the other side.
> 
> ...



What is this other side you speak of? I've watched many movies that were overtly male orientated with many women, and to this day have never seen any of them find a problem with it. Like I said though, this is ONE sentence from a story that may or may not contain that sentence.


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## druid12000 (Feb 26, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> edit: Oh, the humiliation! Maybe if I only get a small number of the same people replying, I can justify that mistake.
> 
> I often make notes when writing, for other stories I'll be working on next. I'm thinking of re-purposing the voice I use for MotherHUD for use in a children's story, but I'm also working on another voice for a detective story. I wrote this and I know it's based on a well known joke but wondered if it's now common to see it used like this. *I've never read detective stories or written one before*:



I've not read much of the genre either, but I will recommend a book that may give you some ideas. 'Noir' by Christopher Moore. He is one of the funniest writers I've read in a long time and you can tell he had fun writing this one.

As far as the sentence goes, it seems like the infamous scene from 'Basic Instinct'.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 26, 2021)

druid12000 said:


> I've not read much of the genre either, but I will recommend a book that may give you some ideas. 'Noir' by Christopher Moore. He is one of the funniest writers I've read in a long time and you can tell he had fun writing this one.
> 
> As far as the sentence goes, it seems like the infamous scene from 'Basic Instinct'.



LOL. I may have had that in mind ... I'll see if that story is up on audiobooks and give it a listen! Cheers.


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## Llyralen (Feb 26, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> What is this other side you speak of? I've watched many movies that were overtly male orientated with many women, and to this day have never seen any of them find a problem with it. Like I said though, this is ONE sentence from a story that may or may not contain that sentence.




I want to know if my general point is made.  See the sentences above.    And no... that’s not a small thing.  It might be a small sentence in your book, but it’s a general thing in society.   It’s pretty constant and it needs to stop.  There are roughly equal numbers of men and women yet women are supposed to put up with all sorts of references to anatomy we don’t have all of the time and it reinforces who is in charge every time. 

You don’t want to exclude your readers, do you?  It would be financially benefiting for you to look into this as someone else has already pointed out.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 26, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> I want to know if my general point is made.  See the sentences above.    And no... that’s not a small thing.  It might be a small sentence in your book, but it’s a general thing in society.   It’s pretty constant and it needs to stop.  There are roughly equal numbers of men and women yet women are supposed to put up with all sorts of references to anatomy we don’t have all of the time.



I'm not catering to everyone. I'm catering to what I want to write. If it cuts off 50% of my audience of a story I'm going to write in the corner of the internet, and that is never going to be any more than a tester for a new voice, then so be it. I'm sure there is plenty of content that does cater to that audience. The best way of finding it is probably to look for the lowest audience Rotten Tomato scores.


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## Llyralen (Feb 26, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> I'm not catering to everyone. I'm catering to what I want to write. If it cuts off 50% of my audience of a story I'm going to write in the corner of the internet, and that is never going to be any more than a tester for a new voice, then so be it. I'm sure there is plenty of content that does cater to that audience. The best way of finding it is probably to look for the lowest audience Rotten Tomato scores.




Thats lamentable.  There are such easy ways to make it inclusive.  All you have to do is acknowledge that half your readers might not have balls.  You can do that by writing the same sentences from a singular perspective, make it obvious that THiS guy has balls, but you’re not just assuming that everyone reading does. 

1. “Robert acknowledged the starlet was spanner-eyed.  She shifted her knees...” 

Well, I tried. 
I will likely make a new post about this as I’ve been noticing it in other places and imo it’s not okay.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 26, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> Thats lamentable.  There are such easy ways to make it inclusive.  All you have to do is acknowledge that half your readers might not have balls.  You can do that by writing the same sentences from a singular perspective, make it obvious that THiS guy has balls, but you’re not just assuming that everyone reading does.
> 
> 1. “Robert acknowledged the starlet was spanner-eyed.  She shifted her knees...”
> 
> ...



But what if I decide to make my character a misogynist?


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## Matchu (Feb 26, 2021)

If you must be so grandiose at least have some elegance in your prose.  

In this extract (only) you combine a cockeyed viewpoint and clunky arrangement.  Respect the craft.


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## Llyralen (Feb 26, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> But what if I decide to make my character a misogynist?




The character and the author should be two different things.    In fact, the contrast can paint a clearer character.  It can be more meaningful to understand all of this. 

This is what I’m saying... it’s fine for a character to have different anatomy than me, but don’t just assume your readers have certain anatomy in the way that you write it.  I then feel like I showed up at the wrong house.   

Let’s say your character has a smart phone and lives on a planet where only half of the people have ever had a smart phone  Your character says “Everyone download X app.” Half of them can’t participate and don’t know what that even means.  In the book it is obvious that the main character isn’t recognizing half the people there.  or maybe it should be more obvious?  But if an author says to his readers on this planet, some of whom have never had smart phones “You know when you go to x app how half the things on that app aren’t true?”    I mean... you can try to play along sometimes, but you know you don’t have a smart phone.  If you don’t have one it gets really obvious to you in situations like this. You can try to brush it off, but it is kind of like not being seen or understood. 

Hopefully that metaphor works.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 26, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> *The character and the author should be two different things*.    In fact, the contrast paints a clearer picture.



Not at all, no. In my stories the characters ARE the authors. I'm just there to take notes.


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## Llyralen (Feb 26, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> Not at all, no. In my stories the characters ARE the authors. I'm just there to take notes.



Is the smart phone analogy working?  As someone said, it’s financially beneficial to recognize all of your readers.   If you insist that your characters and you are both misogynists then maybe there can be a growth curve?    Hmm?


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 26, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> Is the smart phone analogy working?  As someone said, it’s financially beneficial to recognize all of your readers.   If you insist that your characters and you are both misogynists then maybe there can be a growth curve?    Hmm?



Look, I'm not in the least bit interested in pleasing everyone. I don't care if some people don't like what I write. I don't care if a whole sex doesn't like what I write. I don't care. If I end up writing a detective story, I'll write it how I want to write it and won't consider anyone but my protagonist and my own needs. I'm writing it for my own entertainment and as a practice for a new voice as well as taking on a genre I haven't attempted before. It doesn't matter how many ways you put your point across, it won't change my mind because 'I don't care'. 

I write for fun.


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## Llyralen (Feb 26, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> 'I don't care'.
> .



Noted. 

It’s not about pleasing, it’s about the choice to include or alienate.   I hope you reflect on this as I am holding out with faith for you, Az, on this point.  In most other points I am happy your writing is how it is, and I’m glad to call you my WF friend.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 26, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> Noted.
> 
> It’s not about pleasing, it’s about the choice to include or alienate.   I hope you reflect on this as I am holding out with faith for you, Az.



Well, you don't give up easily, I'll give you that.  






There's hope for me yet.


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## Llyralen (Feb 26, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> Well, you don't give up easily, I'll give you that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I edited (look) before I got the darling kittens.  A awesome hug back, Az.   Awww.


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## JBF (Feb 26, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> Is the smart phone analogy working?  As someone said, it’s financially beneficial to recognize all of your readers.   If you insist that your characters and you are both misogynists then maybe there can be a growth curve?    Hmm?



A tangential question:

What do you make of a character who's some kind of _-ist _and remains so after completing their character arc?


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## indianroads (Feb 26, 2021)

*Please play nice everyone.*


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## Llyralen (Feb 26, 2021)

JBF said:


> A tangential question:
> 
> What do you make of a character who's some kind of _-ist _and remains so after completing their character arc?




I know, I’m analyzing me too.   I’d say it would have to depend on the individual character.   Sometimes people self-identify black or white (extremes) on issues when in actuality there is a gray that is easily observed.   Also sometimes people do certain things when pushed.     Self-identity is an interesting thing.   Also your relationship to that person or character can be interesting.  They can remind you of your own child or your own father or some such that makes it more key for you to be open for changes.   For instance, you would maybe want a boyfriend to throw out a girlfriend who started to do cocaine around her kids, but if she goes home to her parents’ house you would maybe (depending) want her parents to keep her under their roof and do what they could for her with hope as long as they themselves weren’t getting abused.  So those judgements we place can be so circumstantial and I think narrowing someone to an “ist” sometimes can feel like it’s including the bulk of them and sometimes it doesn’t fit quite so snuggly around their whole self. 

Sorry I’m kind of taking some space on this, but it’s interesting to me.  One more thought is that certain people due to experiences might have a wide or small tolerance for certain aspects of different personalities.  For instance, let’s say my tolerance for a certain type of prejudice that I’ve had to deal with is very low because I have dealt with a big problem in the past from it like getting fired, I think that would make a very low tolerance and kind of a hyper-vigilance for it.  Or maybe if one of my siblings has bi- polar disease— something that makes it so I choose to put up with that from my sister but I sure as heck am not going to choose to put up with it from a chosen friend.  Or we choose the opposite as I said above, if someone bi-polar reminds me of my bi-polar sister, maybe I have learned more tolerance.  I think it has to do with where we’ve been wounded and who we’ve seen change or battles we may have fought ourselves. 
Humans are so complex! 

What do you think about it?  What are your thoughts?


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## JBF (Feb 26, 2021)

Short version?  

I'm of a mind that a good story is about the change in the characters.  The caveat there is that they shouldn't necessarily have _all _of their problems solved when things wrap up, and that any adjustments they make along the way shouldn't all be the for the best - change not being equivalent to progress and all that.  

Long version...it's tricky, and probably more than should be stuffed into one post.   I'd say the character shouldn't change so much as their focus.

For instance, let's suppose you have a character who begins with a certain set of values and biases.  Those should be solid in the beginning, but over time the reader should see how they shift in response to the environment.  Having them do a full 180 would be strange because most people never entirely wash their hands of something, and seldom as dramatically as Hollywood (or the Church) like to depict.   A conversion of any kind should never be quick, easy, or effected all at once, and the writer trying to pass one at face value does a disservice to the reader.

One of my MCs starts out with two major traits; his career aspirations (to fly) and a deep-seated sympathy for the underdog.  Both will accompany him to the end of the story, and the more he listens to one corresponds to the degree which he'll let the other slip in priority; you could charitably call the nature of his work as being on the darker side of gray, and when it's going well he disregards some things he probably ought to attend.  By turns, when it's going lousy he's more inclined to help the people around him.  Eventually the things he's willing to sacrifice for the things he wants change in priority, with both remaining important.  

In the beginning he's willing to give up anything to chase the dream.
In the end he's willing to take a hit on the dream when the opportunity comes up to do something good.  
In both cases the cost is high.  

Of course there's probably a thousand pages in between the two, but you get the idea.


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## ironpony (Feb 27, 2021)

EternalGreen said:


> I guess my objection is you should be showing us her sexiness, not telling us about it.
> 
> I've never heard the term "spanner-eyed" before, so I'm guessing the answer is no.



Is it suppose to be sexy?  I didn't get that from the OP.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 27, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Is it suppose to be sexy?  I didn't get that from the OP.



Naaa, it's not meant to be sexy. It's an old joke and I wondered if it would be considered a cliche to use it in that way. That's it.


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## Matchu (Feb 27, 2021)

Sorry if I was rude last night, screen took me over, soz.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 27, 2021)

Matchu said:


> Sorry if I was rude last night, screen took me over, soz.



No worries. That was then, this is now.


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## Llyralen (Feb 27, 2021)

JBF said:


> Short version?
> 
> I'm of a mind that a good story is about the change in the characters.  The caveat there is that they shouldn't necessarily have _all _of their problems solved when things wrap up, and that any adjustments they make along the way shouldn't all be the for the best - change not being equivalent to progress and all that.
> 
> ...



Very interesting stuff!  A character torn between something they want and who they are.  I think it’s very compelling.     I think many people have to go through this type of thing and it’s not easy at all, and come to think of it it’s not common to write about and it should be because it’s very interesting.  I was just barely talking to a friend about a guy she knows whose young wife has MS and has been quickly declining.  He is 25 years old and he is divorcing her.  She said about him “He’s really into physical things like snow boarding and sports, I think he just wasn’t ready for this and found out he wasn’t willing.”  I’m bringing this up because I think it’s true that in real life people are faced with decisions that can change our lives and potentially change ourselves— but change is hard, it is not for the weak of heart.   

I am now able to better address your question, I agree that change can be slow and hard and 180’s are uncommon.  I think in real life it’s interesting to see what parts of a person they retain.  I have seen people do kind of a slower 170 on a certain aspect of themselves and I think watching that has been something that changes me as well.  It gives me courage to know that we can change and heal.  Also it’s fascinating!  When someone’s worldview starts to change and they are faced with how they would have done things on a daily basis and that now they have to re-think, it’s like watching lines of string being pulled as previous ideas unravel.  I’m thinking of _Cry the Beloved Country _and _It’s a Wonderful Life as _some few representatives of things we are talking about.  This is the good stuff!  Also it has made me think of my plot line as well, clarifying that conflict inside the person for myself and for my reader.   When you publish, I plan to buy a copy, so keep me in the loop!  Thank you for sharing your thoughts and your work with me/us!   This was meaningful for me!


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## JBF (Feb 27, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> I’m bringing this up because I think it’s true that in real life people are faced with decisions that can change our lives and potentially change ourselves— but change is hard, it is not for the weak of heart.



Worth remembering that if most people aren't the hero in their own story, they probably don't see themselves as the villain, either.  If there's one thing a writer can take away from a discussion about flaws and foibles in human nature it's our inborn ability to justify almost anything in the moment.  



> I am now able to better address your question, I agree that change can be slow and hard and 180’s are uncommon.  I have seen people do kind of a slower 180, and I think watching that has been something that changes me as well.  It gives me courage to know that we can change and heal.    I’m thinking of _Cry the Beloved Country _and _It’s a Wonderful Life_as some few representatives of things we are talking about.  This is the good stuff!  When you publish, I plan to buy a copy, so keep me in the loop!



_It's a Wonderful Life _is a sort of stealth inspiration for this particular character.  Partially because Jimmy Stewart was a terrifically underrated actor who nailed the role of the quiet everyman, partially because the scenes of him falling apart were rooted in untreated PTSD which - at the time - was generally recognized but not discussed outside of the more extreme cases.  

It's also an exceptionally odd movie from a technical and film-making perspective.  The whole thing has no reason to work as well as it does.


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## clark (Feb 27, 2021)

I'm not entirely sure I'm "getting" the gist of this conversation. There seems to be great uneasiness, even rejection of "sexiness", or perhaps a male author describing a 'sexy' woman--that such a description is not appropriate? An offence against PC? Glass says readers can 'handle sexiness' if it's 'toned down' and then this: "a sex scene in a story I don't think sells a lot of books". On what data is THAT corker based, Glass? Maybe you're right. I do not know. But I know I hate censorship, of any kind. And a big part of this thread seems of the opinion that 'sex scenes' in fiction *should *be avoided. What if I have a female character whose obsession with sex has led to murder and as the plot unfolds her compulsive behavior leads to more murder and mayhem? I'm a man but I think I am capable of imagining that character and her problem. Or what if a steamy sex scene is an excellent way to lay out the parameters of a serial killer central to my book--I should NOT go that route, because it's 'wrong' or 'won't sell' or will 'offend' many or most female readers? No, no, no! if a sex scene, or many sex scenes, are integrated and honest parts of the organic whole of my book, they will STAY.


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## JBF (Feb 27, 2021)

clark said:


> I'm not entirely sure I'm "getting" the gist of this conversation.




First there was confusion.  Then there was outrage.  Then more confusion.  Somehow we worked back around to writing.  

This may be the best thread ever.


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## Llyralen (Feb 27, 2021)

JBF said:


> Worth remembering that if most people aren't the hero in their own story, they probably don't see themselves as the villain, either.  If there's one thing a writer can take away from a discussion about flaws and foibles in human nature it's our inborn ability to justify almost anything in the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So true about the hero and the villain!   I had not thought of it in that way, I think maybe I’ve spoken to people about seeing yourself as the solution and that it takes self-confidence and feeling like you have the resources to do so.   At this moment I think I realize it isn’t just about battling feelings of inadequacy but also takes selflessness too.  

 I couldn’t think of any other story that clearly shows that someone wanted something— something good— yet his better angels and circumstances made him need to give it up.   I was worried at first that by bringing up _Its a Wonderful Life_ you might feel like the originality was lost from your idea.  I hesitated big time and even re-wrote my post to kind of just throw the reference in.  But it’s kind of a crime that it is the only reference I can think of when all the time things like that happen for people’s dreams.  

Actually my dad’s big life story was that all he wanted to be was a fighter pilot.  He listened to the battle of Mid-way over the radio— I’m getting the idea that they narrated what was going on with the pilots and it took me seeing the movie _Dunkirk _to realize that pilots were discussed as heroes.  My dad had no other dream.  He signed up for the Air Force as soon as he hit the age requirement.  He told me there was a pre-test that if you passed you got to go straight in.  He said out of a room of about 200 guys just he and 2 others passed.  He said he was on cloud-9 high-fiving with these other two guys walking down the hall.  They only needed a physical (and he was/is a good athlete).  He was found to be color-blind.  This was the biggest disappointment of my father’s life.  He did join the army and was stationed in Germany during the 50’s, but he never got over this.   Whenever my mom told the story she would say “But if he wasn’t color blind then he might have been killed in the Vietnam War.”  I hated the idea of my dad going to war and always felt like his color blindness was an act of God so that he could be my beloved father.     I am telling this story because you’ve got a pilot in yours.  My dad did own his own small airplane through the 60’s to 1972 and used to fly to different states on weekends when gas was cheap before we kids were born.


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## Llyralen (Feb 27, 2021)

clark said:


> I'm not entirely sure I'm "getting" the gist of this conversation. There seems to be great uneasiness, even rejection of "sexiness", or perhaps a male author describing a 'sexy' woman--that such a description is not appropriate? An offence against PC? Glass says readers can 'handle sexiness' if it's 'toned down' and then this: "a sex scene in a story I don't think sells a lot of books". On what data is THAT corker based, Glass? Maybe you're right. I do not know. But I know I hate censorship, of any kind. And a big part of this thread seems of the opinion that 'sex scenes' in fiction *should *be avoided. What if I have a female character whose obsession with sex has led to murder and as the plot unfolds her compulsive behavior leads to more murder and mayhem? I'm a man but I think I am capable of imagining that character and her problem. Or what if a steamy sex scene is an excellent way to lay out the parameters of a serial killer central to my book--I should NOT go that route, because it's 'wrong' or 'won't sell' or will 'offend' many or most female readers? No, no, no! if a sex scene, or many sex scenes, are integrated and honest parts of the organic whole of my book, they will STAY.



Just to be clear, I have no protest about writing about sex or describing something as sexy.  I do both quite a bit in my own work.     

There wasn’t anything in the primary sentence that I was protesting either— anyway, you might need a fine-tooth comb to go back and track what was actually going on and I’m not going to repeat it, it would be too much like getting a mammogram.  I’m sure you know just what I mean.    .   

I agree with JBF, I love this thread!  And everyone here!    Glad you joined, Clark!


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## JBF (Feb 27, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> So true about the hero and the villain!   I had not thought of it in that way, I think maybe I’ve spoken to people about seeing yourself as the solution and that it takes self-confidence and feeling like you have the resources to do so.   At this moment I think I realize it isn’t just about battling feelings of inadequacy but also takes selflessness too.



Selflessness is a tricky one to get on paper.  Getting it right is awe-inspiring...getting it wrong is cloying.  It's also one of those things (I think) that requires a fair amount of doubt and second-guessing to really make work.  I'm not sure you can approach it head-on, if that makes any sense.  Done well, it's usually something that comes out of left field with a high degree of consequence for all involved; it needs to have some sting, and the character also has to make the call of their own free will.  You find a lot of situations where one has the dream taken from them but that's another animal altogether.  




> I couldn’t think of any other story that clearly shows that someone wanted something— something good— yet his better angels and circumstances made him need to give it up.   I was worried at first that by bringing up _Its a Wonderful Life_ you might feel like the originality was lost from your idea.  I hesitated big time and even re-wrote my post to kind of just throw the reference in.  But it’s kind of a crime that it is the only reference I can think of when all the time things like that happen for people’s dreams.



Definitely a lesser-used plot.  And besides...one could do a lot worse than having IAWL for company.  



> Actually my dad’s big life story was that all he wanted to be was a fighter pilot.  He listened to the battle of Mid-way over the radio— I’m getting the idea that they narrated what was going on with the pilots and it took me seeing the movie _Dunkirk _to realize that pilots were discussed as heroes.  My dad had no other dream.  He signed up for the Air Force as soon as he hit the age requirement.  He told me there was a pre-test that if you passed you got to go straight in.  He said out of a room of about 200 guys just he and 2 others passed.  He said he was on cloud-9 high-fiving with these other two guys walking down the hall.  They only needed a physical (and he was/is a good athlete).  He was found to be color-blind.  This was the biggest disappointment of my father’s life.  He did join the army and was stationed in Germany during the 50’s, but he never got over this.   Whenever my mom told the story she would say “But if he wasn’t color blind then he might have been killed in the Vietnam War.”  I hated the idea of my dad going to war and always felt like his color blindness was an act of God so that he could be my beloved father.     I am telling this story because you’ve got a pilot in yours.  My dad did own his own small airplane through the 60’s to 1972 and used to fly to different states on weekends when gas was cheap before we kids were born.



Mine wanted to go in the air force after college.  Not necessarily as a pilot, though he always said flight crew would have been interested.  Incidentally, this was right after Viet Nam and the postwar drawn-down meant you couldn't get a commission for love or money.  

For a while there I wanted to fly for a living.  Still got the license even if it hasn't been current for years.  I was kind of misfit at flight school...most of my classmates wanted the airlines.  I wanted to go into bush flying.  Running small planes into interesting places meant more than the paycheck and, frankly, flying cattle cars never appealed to me that much.  

Didn't work out.  For better or worse, I guess.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 27, 2021)

The woman who told me that spanner joke would be mystified by the breadth of the conversation it's engendered.


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## JBF (Feb 27, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> The woman who told me that spanner joke would be mystified by the breadth of the conversation it's engendered.



Mission accomplished?


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 27, 2021)

JBF said:


> Mission accomplished?



I daren't mention some of her other jokes. LOL. I just thought I'd let this go on for a while before I dropped that little piece of information. Life is so funny sometimes.


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## VRanger (Feb 27, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> Just to be clear, I have no protest about writing about sex or describing something as sexy.  I do both quite a bit in my own work.



Here is the most overt I've ever been about that. I virtually always leave that up to the reader's imagination. If they think someone should be good looking and/or sexy, they'll draw their own mental picture. Here a couple has just walked into a fancy restaurant. It's sci-fi, thus the high tech apparel:

_Leda attired herself in classic Leda. Her gown's fascinating collage of shifting shades suggested tantalizing exposure without really being sheer. One would swear it bared everything. There was no alternative but staring, waiting for an utterly revealing moment which never arrived. No man in the room who accompanied a lady would have any peace once he left. Some would not survive dinner._


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 27, 2021)

vranger said:


> Here is the most overt I've ever been about that. I virtually always leave that up to the reader's imagination. If they think someone should be good looking and/or sexy, they'll draw their own mental picture. Here a couple has just walked into a fancy restaurant. It's sci-fi, thus the high tech apparel:
> 
> _Leda attired herself in classic Leda. Her gown's fascinating collage of shifting shades suggested tantalizing exposure without really being sheer. One would swear it bared everything. There was no alternative but staring, waiting for an utterly revealing moment which never arrived. No man in the room who accompanied a lady would have any peace once he left. Some would not survive dinner._



So, in your example, it's the wives that tightened their nuts


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## VRanger (Feb 27, 2021)

clark said:


> Or what if a steamy sex scene is an excellent way to lay out the parameters of a serial killer central to my book--I should NOT go that route, because it's 'wrong' or 'won't sell' or will 'offend' many or most female readers?



LOTS of the Romance genre has sex scenes, some pretty explicit. Depending on whose stat you read 82-84% of Romance customers are women ... women who evidently did not experience revulsion and turn expressly to the Bible for the remainder of their reading lives.

Therefore, I offer the hesitant conclusion that women are able to grit their teeth, hunch their shoulders, turn a side eye to the page, and endure a sex scene. Then eagerly buy the next book out from that author.


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## Llyralen (Feb 27, 2021)

JBF said:


> Selflessness is a tricky one to get on paper.  Getting it right is awe-inspiring...getting it wrong is cloying.  It's also one of those things (I think) that requires a fair amount of doubt and second-guessing to really make work.  I'm not sure you can approach it head-on, if that makes any sense.  Done well, it's usually something that comes out of left field with a high degree of consequence for all involved; it needs to have some sting, and the character also has to make the call of their own free will.  You find a lot of situations where one has the dream taken from them but that's another animal altogether.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It would be interesting!  My dad did love the small plane, getting to do tricks and flips.   It sounds funner to me than airline travel for sure. 

A friend contacted me to be her co-writer for a book set 200 years in the future.  This was a challenging idea for me, my futuresque worlds usually jump to 100,009 years, not 200– which actually turned out to be more challenging and interesting!  Watching current trends and trying to herd them basically into a unified possible future.  We decided we would each write a character and alternate chapters.  Her character was going to be a bush pilot in Australia and mine a middle-class widow in America.  Man, now I want to share it! 


My friend dropped out.  She didn’t even write a paragraph.  She said she realized that all the books she had ever read on writing were freezing her up.   But now I want to actually keep her idea, I think.   Because her mother was Australian, she had kind of a peak at that world and I was saying that Australia could have opened its desert to refugees from flooding who could work with solar power and also hydroponic feeding plants.   And that doesn’t seem far from what Australia might do.  But I might ask you more about bush pilots and what one there might be doing.  I want to continue the book. 

I wrote the first chapter in 2019 and what’s good is that some of the ideas must resonate because my husband didn’t seem super into it at first but after COVID hit it seemed more relevant.  I had written that everyone wore masks and the general idea was that nobody touches each other, but there were good reasons that doesn’t happen.  My American character, the widow, had never met her husband in real life.  They were married online.  America closed its borders to refugees in my story.

I might add a third country and character.  I used to live in Denmark.  It’s interesting to think about what Denmark will do with global disaster.  Actually fir the reasons we are talking about with change.  They see themselves as the solution/hero but they are small and resources somewhat limited.    Oh so interesting!   Got any ideas on bush pilots and Australia by chance?    What I really like is getting to talk to people about their work and their insights and ideas.


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## Llyralen (Feb 27, 2021)

vranger said:


> LOTS of the Romance genre has sex scenes, some pretty explicit. Depending on whose stat you read 82-84% of Romance customers are women ... women who evidently did not experience revulsion and turn expressly to the Bible for the remainder of their reading lives.
> 
> Therefore, I offer the hesitant conclusion that women are able to grit their teeth, hunch their shoulders, turn a side eye to the page, and endure a sex scene. Then eagerly buy the next book out from that author.




Wait, what?  I thought we women were the main ones reading romance and sex scenes.  I thought “sex books” were mainly a women’s genre.  I’d be glad to think of more men reading it actually.


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## JBF (Feb 27, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> Got any ideas on bush pilots and Australia by chance?    What I really like is getting to talk to people about their work and their insights and ideas.



Most of the stuff I know about bush flying was secondhand.  I remember a fair bit about working with light aircraft, though.  

I'd be less than useless talking about Australia...except to say that the handful of Australians I've met have been a pretty cool bunch.  Definitely their own breed.


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## clark (Feb 27, 2021)

*WARNING !! EXPLICIT SEXUAL DIALOGUE.  IF THAT OFFENDS YOU, DO NOT READ

*VRANGER'S example is subtle, tasteful. Here are two other kinds of examples, both out front and utterly without 'taste', I would think, to many. 
Would you include either in your work of fiction?

In both cases, the MC is dealing with VERY high-end, expensive call girls. My apologies for the erratic formatting.

1.
oooooooooooooooWhen they got up to leave, she put her arms around his neck and kissed him full on the lips, her body pressed lightly to his from shoulder to knee.  
It was the most astonishing Kiss he’d ever had.  She seemed to melt into his body and her mouth and tongue both demanded and succumbed 
in a consuming meld that left him weak-kneed. . .and rampant.  She smiled, looked down, and touched his cheek.  “Thank you, Malcolm.  I have never 
met a man of such resolve.  It’s been a great pleasure to spend this time with you.”

oooooooooooooooMalcolm stood, his hands folded in front , and watched her swaying hips and long black hair until she disappeared around a corner.   

_ooooooooooooooo__Aye, y’traitorous wee bastard ye, _ he thought, glancing down but still holding his hands in front, _an’ ye just won’ retreat, will ye Lad, ‘cause ye think I’ve gone right daft, is what ye think!  _Malcolm decided to sit until things calmed down.  He quietly ate the remaining cold cuts and 
some chilled shrimp, washed down with the half-drink Alecia had left.  The fragrance of her lipstick lingered on his mouth as he entered the elevator to his suite.

2.

ooooooooooooThe shower had stopped some minutes ago.  Louise emerged from the bathroom, stunning in a tight  black Chinese dress to her ankles, a long slit to mid-thigh on one side.. A translucent grey band with a barely discernible dragon motif climbed from the bottom of the slit the entire length 
of the dress, the head of the dragon resting over her right breast.  She had piled her hair up and tied it with a black ribbon.  She was twirling 
her white panties on an index finger.  “They’re still damp”, she pouted.

oooooooooooooooo“Oh stop!”  He grabbed her by both shoulders, pulled her to him roughly and kissed her, 
full and long, on the lips.  When he released her, he spun her around, opened the door, 
and firmly walked her into the hallway.  “My Dear,” he half-gasped, “it has been a genuine 
pleasure.  It really has.  You’re quite a girl.”
\
ooooooooooooooooo“I can see I am.  And I’m pleased.  I was beginning to think I was  losing it..”  
A serious smile.  “And I have something to say to you, Mr. Malcolm McGraw.  I haven’t been 
kissed like that in years.  And I am standing here as _naturally _wet in a critical area, as I’ve been 
in years.  You’re quite a guy.”  She reached inside her dress, came up with a card and held it out to him.  
He took it. 

ooooooooooo0ooooo“If you ever think of me--you want an old-fashioned boy-girl date—a movie, a walk in the park, go 
for coffee—you call me.”  She dazzled him with a final smile as she turned and began walking away.  
She stopped, looked back at him over a bare shoulder.  “After the date, I’m going to rape you.”  And she was gone.


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## Llyralen (Feb 27, 2021)

vranger said:


> Here is the most overt I've ever been about that. I virtually always leave that up to the reader's imagination. If they think someone should be good looking and/or sexy, they'll draw their own mental picture. Here a couple has just walked into a fancy restaurant. It's sci-fi, thus the high tech apparel:
> 
> _Leda attired herself in classic Leda. Her gown's fascinating collage of shifting shades suggested tantalizing exposure without really being sheer. One would swear it bared everything. There was no alternative but staring, waiting for an utterly revealing moment which never arrived. No man in the room who accompanied a lady would have any peace once he left. Some would not survive dinner._



I like the description of that dress very much.  It’s just the kind of description you’d want in a fantasy/sci-Fi.    I’m not quite sure of the effect.  Does it mean that men go home and get it on with their wives—  the intensified hormones increasing the love factor all around.  Or does it mean the wives were furious at their men for staring at Leda?    Hmm... I want that dress.  Lol.


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## PiP (Feb 27, 2021)

clark said:


> *WARNING !! EXPLICIT SEXUAL DIALOGUE.  IF THAT OFFENDS YOU, DO NOT READ
> 
> *VRANGER'S example is subtle, tasteful. Here are two other kinds of examples, both out front and utterly without 'taste', I would think, to many.
> Would you include either in your work of fiction?
> ...



Yes, I would include both, especially: Malcolm stood, his hands folded in front , and  watched her swaying hips and long black hair until she disappeared  around a corner.   

_ooooooooooooooo__Aye, y’traitorous wee bastard ye, _ he thought, glancing down but still holding his hands in front, _an’ ye just won’ retreat, will ye Lad, ‘cause ye think I’ve gone right daft, is what ye think!  _Malcolm decided to sit until things calmed down.  

It appealed to my sense of humour. Men often refer to their appendage as a third party of independent thought and action. You could write a book on conversations with Roger (rhymes with Todger)

So yes, if I was writing from a man's POV's view. From a woman's I would be more mocking in the dialogue.  Perhaps it is a cliché of how 'some' women write men.


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## Llyralen (Feb 27, 2021)

clark said:


> *WARNING !! EXPLICIT SEXUAL DIALOGUE.  IF THAT OFFENDS YOU, DO NOT READ
> *
> Would you include either in your work of fiction?



Clark!!! 
Are we writing kind of the same story???   We have to talk about this!   Please?   Wait a second.    
Is it okay to post stuff like that outside of the Red Light district as long as you’ve got a fair warning?  I’m going to assume so since you did it.   I would have done that before...

Okay, so my very first thread post on WF in November is about a story that I should be working on right now that I told my anthology group I was going to do.  It’s about a high-end call girl who carefully picks her clients to only being men who she truly likes and trusts.  It starts with someone— maybe one of them— murdering her and then her flashing back to the last 3 days of time and who she saw, etc.  The title is something like 
“The Surprisingly Merciful Death of Olivia del Scarlette”.  Or something close.  It’s a short story.  Well.... so to tell you the truth I am writing it for the love of sex the love of love in sex (which I’m happy to possess) but mysteries are a new genre to me and so although I’ve got sex scenes a plenty, the actual mystery part of it isn’t coming together well— although I have small break-throughs, had one even today about the mercy part of the death and also about who it will be, because I’ve been spending time with these guys in my head for the past little bit.  One of the things that is interesting is just the clientele and her views on what she does and why she does it.  
The idea was inspired by listening to a talk show once where a high end call girl called in and said that mostly men just want to talk about their wives.  I have researched a lot.  I have seen several call girls saying this type of thing and a man who said that his John’s want to talk about men they love and his clientele were also mainly married to women.  It’s very interesting.  The real complexities of these issues have actually made me almost back out of this story after pitching it to my group because I realize kind of the responsibility of painting it real.  I want it to be somewhat real and even though that’s where I started from, I really do like pure love with my sex personally and I actually don’t find sex without love to be very appealing.  I guess that is what makes my girl different. 

Going back to your question, it’s all good.  I just need women written as more than just sex.  If sex is all they are then it turns me off as well usually— meaning I would have to see more of your story to decide how I really felt about it.   If women are only sex then the writer might as well discuss choosing grade A meat to me— it means it doesn’t even turn me on.  In real life a man can be absolutely physically beautiful and unless his mind and heart are interesting to me then I really don’t get turned on at all.  Not all women are like that.  I know that most women like their eye-candy, but for me I’ve got to have my mind and heart stimulated.  Thoughts and background and complex reasons (like I know there is) for the clients in my story is pretty important to me.     Okay, but now that I’ve so thoroughly exhausted what turns me on and off, I think we have GOT to talk, yes?   Or I need to!  I need to know what you’re writing and I want to share parts of mine.  It might help me thrash it out.  Here or private message... I need to get writing this!  Like today!


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## clark (Feb 27, 2021)

Llyra -- very quick: in 1917 the call went out for qualified soldiers to apply for the fledgling Royal Flying Corps. My Dad KNEW he'd fail the color-blind test--a flip-book of numbers buried in dots. In the bottom right corner of each card, in very small print, was the buried number for that card. My dad knew the officer flipping the cards and went to visit him as the line crept forward. Dad had acute eyesight and MEMORIZED the tiny numbers, upside down, and passed the test when it was his turn! Dad had the dubious distinction of being one of the many Allied pilots shot down by Baron von Richthofen. One bullet through the fleshy part of hjs upper arm was his only wound and he managed to land his smoking biplane and run away from it before it blew up.


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## Matchu (Feb 27, 2021)

I caught a Pan Am jumbo once upon a time.  An old fat chap tapped the empty seat to his left side & he made me read his latest copy of Playboy together - in front of the hostesses and all of the mothers. I feel triggered in the aftermath of such experience.  Have you considered e£ecti0n eyes?  You can’t type e£ecti0n here tho’ it’ll cause trouble.


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## VRanger (Feb 27, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> I like the description of that dress very much.  It’s just the kind of description you’d want in a fantasy/sci-Fi.    I’m not quite sure of the effect.  Does it mean that men go home and get it on with their wives—  the intensified hormones increasing the love factor all around.  Or does it mean the wives were furious at their men for staring at Leda?    Hmm... I want that dress.  Lol.



The latter.  But both is an option. LOL


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## clark (Feb 27, 2021)

Llyra -- sure we can talk. It is hard writing, I find, to integrate sex into fiction as an organic part of the flow and the characters, rather than just gratuitous grunt-grunt, which is apparently available in the unashamed porn-print market of one-handed books. I have zero interest in that, but some readers will take ANY explicit sex that way, and that is their personal problem as far as I'm concerned. It has nothing to do with the art of writing or the enjoyment of reading. My email is *moonfroth@gmail.com*


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## clark (Feb 27, 2021)

Matchu -- if you want to get into a very raw discussion of something to do with direct, explicit sex, or aberrant sex, or scatology--anything well outside the bounds of 'community' standards, then Yes, take it to the Inferno. But a word here and there in a larger context, such as this thread, words like erection or fuck or shit or hard-on, whatever is needed to describe  clearly, that's ok. And, good grief! . . .we're adults. We do NOT need to do f**k and similar nonsense.


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## VRanger (Feb 27, 2021)

clark said:


> VRANGER'S example is subtle, tasteful. Here are two other kinds of examples, both out front and utterly without 'taste', I would think, to many.
> Would you include either in your work of fiction?



First, thank you. That was my idea of putting across the idea of good looks, not sex, though.

Both your examples are pretty mild compared to a lot of things I've read, even in sci-fi. 

For quite a while I included some romance in my stories, but very, very behind closed doors sex, if at all. I had "Don't write something you'd be embarrassed for your mother to read" syndrome. Mom has left us now, so I'm slowly branching out from that restriction. I'd forgotten about this, and I don't know why, since it's in my WIP. A bit of female form and a mention of sex. I guess this is now where we all get to show off this stuff? LOL

_By this point I felt wide awake, and in need of grooming ... among other activities. I untangled myself from the sheets and left Agares as she lay. I only had a view from the back, but the view was pleasant enough to invigorate any red-blooded Athenian god. From a standing view, I might have seen more, but her right arm was inconveniently placed. Mortal man, don't despair. If after a few thousand years I find a sneaky thrill in a peek at side teat, you won't run out of steam, either.

A door a few feet from the bed led into a bath. I found the means to shave, then softly latched the door and started the shower. I felt sore, so I ramped up the hot water and let steam cloud the room. I wasn't as quiet as I’d planned to be. About halfway through the shower, I heard the door unlatch. Agares slipped into the shower with me, and distracted me from the utilitarian purpose of the exercise, so it took longer than I'd anticipated. 'You scrub my back, I'll scrub yours' takes on an entirely different connotation. Yeah, we didn't actually see much of each other's backs._


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## Llyralen (Feb 27, 2021)

JBF said:


> Most of the stuff I know about bush flying was secondhand.  I remember a fair bit about working with light aircraft, though.
> 
> I'd be less than useless talking about Australia...except to say that the handful of Australians I've met have been a pretty cool bunch.  Definitely their own breed.



I’d be glad to field the character growth/dynamics any time with you on it though.


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## JBF (Feb 27, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> I’d be glad to field the character growth/dynamics any time with you on it though.



Anytime.  

In others news, _Smut! Or as close as I get to writing it, anyway_.  

***


_A mirage in her shape moved behind the shower door.  Coy, as if unaware of him at all, as if he could have been unaware of her, an arm snaked from the hammered glass divider, then the face in quartered profile as she gathered a towel from the bar, and momentarily the glass slid open to its limit and she stepped from the tub, wrapped in byzantine-patterned cotton in faded harvest gold.  

His attention shifted then.  From the razor in hand to the silvered beads on the paleness of her shoulders, to the dark hair unruly with damp, to the eyes and the faintest turning up at the ends of the mouth.  A vision otherworldly in tendrils of steaming air eddying to the open window.  

The blade bit.  And as with all meetings of steel and close-shaven skin it bled in sudden abundance.  The crest of white lather came away tailed vivid red.  Instinctively he leaned above the sink, reaching for the thin strand of hot water below the faucet while the blood threaded in a languid swirl around the drain - one touch of a damp rag, a second, and a third perhaps a minute later left none but a straightedge of parted flesh to be gone in a day or two.  

The towel ground softly against his back.  Thin fingers, a perfect crescent at the end of each, passed in the stream and came to bracket the cut.

"You missed a spot," she murmured.  

In time he wondered.  Did those eyes not flare - even just a little - at the first spring of bright blood?  Knowing then, in some ancient and unfathomable sense that this tiny sacrifice was hers for the taking, that there was no consequence, and should she deign to apologize, forgiveness hers without asking.  

Later.  Much later.

In the moment he registered only the softness of her fingertips and the warm press of her breath and how in moving she let the edge of the towel hitch down in the slightest, and when they touched again it was not through the barrier of worn terrycloth.

The bleeding was stopped then, the rattling overhead fan making headway evacuating the mist, and it was just her face half-hidden in lee of his shoulder, the eyes turned upwards in suggestion of endless possibility.  

Then, perhaps in the duration or a heartbeat or three, hearing harvest gold byzantine piling on the threadbare bathroom rug, he resolved that nothing of worth ever came without sacrifice, anyhow.  _


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## Olly Buckle (Feb 27, 2021)

Haven't read the whole thread, only just noticed it, but I would say 'If you have to ask it's not a cliche yet'. And I had never heard of 'spanner eyes', nor do I think much of it now I have.

When I am in charity shops I always look out for different reference books. One day I found a dictionary of cliches, opened it up when I got home full of anticipation. What a let down, I knew every one.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 27, 2021)

Olly Buckle said:


> Haven't read the whole thread, only just noticed it, but I would say 'If you have to ask it's not a cliche yet'. And I had never heard of 'spanner eyes', nor do I think much of it now I have.
> 
> When I am in charity shops I always look out for different reference books. One day I found a dictionary of cliches, opened it up when I got home full of anticipation. What a let down, I knew every one.



You should dedicate a whole bookcase to books on cliques.


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## Matchu (Feb 27, 2021)

I’m uncomfortable with the assumption that it is women who are uncomfortable - and that somehow the perspective represents men.  Bad writing is just bad writing.

But I’ve only read a couple of the excerpts, the eyes like a monkey wrench original, plus damp panties short story.  Thread that feels like a cave of Illumininati gentlemen wearing hoods.  Stood among men, holding my candle, wearing a bikini only again daydream: man-handled from one beast to another beast man.  I need to shake ithis off, mmm, wake up.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 27, 2021)

After all this, I won't even be using this phrase. I'm coming to the end of MotherHUD and as always will put it in the drawer for a week before I make the final few passes. In the meantime, I'll be writing a Detective/Childrens short story. I couldn't decide which genre I was going to cover next so thought I'd combine them. I can't wait to get stuck into a new voice!


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## Matchu (Feb 27, 2021)

I dunno, you made a good thread.  Also ‘spanner eyes’ should outlive us all.

‘Check her out.  Fucking fit.  Lovely figure with those spanner eyes.’
’Eh?’
’Spanner eyes, balls tighter than peanuts bagged up & saved in a cupboard overnight, mmm.’
’Eh?’


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## MistWolf (Feb 27, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> Got any ideas on bush pilots and Australia by chance?    What I really like is getting to talk to people about their work and their insights and ideas.



[video=youtube;esBEJbqPjDY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esBEJbqPjDY[/video]


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## Llyralen (Feb 27, 2021)

clark said:


> Llyra -- very quick: in 1917 the call went out for qualified soldiers to apply for the fledgling Royal Flying Corps. My Dad KNEW he'd fail the color-blind test--a flip-book of numbers buried in dots. In the bottom right corner of each card, in very small print, was the buried number for that card. My dad knew the officer flipping the cards and went to visit him as the line crept forward. Dad had acute eyesight and MEMORIZED the tiny numbers, upside down, and passed the test when it was his turn! Dad had the dubious distinction of being one of the many Allied pilots shot down by Baron von Richthofen. One bullet through the fleshy part of hjs upper arm was his only wound and he managed to land his smoking biplane and run away from it before it blew up.




Oh my word.... I’ve got to tell my dad some of that.   My dad had no clue he was color blind.  My dad has talked to me of Baron von Richthofen before, I think.  Told me about these legendary pilots.   This is... awesome?  historically!


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## Llyralen (Feb 27, 2021)

MistWolf said:


> [video=youtube;esBEJbqPjDY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esBEJbqPjDY[/video]



Yrah, research!  I don’t know if I could have found this myself, I wasn’t thinking of helicopters.   Thank you very much!


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## Llyralen (Feb 27, 2021)

Wranger Clark JBF.  You gents put some really lovely descriptive stuff on this thread that made me feel and experience.  I don’t think there is a better compliment than “I would buy these books.”   I don’t buy everything and I consider myself a harsh critic.  Thank you guys very much.   I’m trying to get brave enough to do the same.  No pressure, okay?  I only think I will if I tweet a few things...


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## Llyralen (Feb 28, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> .  Spanner eyes :



I just looked.... it is in urban dictionary. 
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=spanner+eyes&amp=true


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## JBF (Feb 28, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> I just looked.... it is in urban dictionary.
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=spanner+eyes&amp=true



Strange and magical world, this.


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## Olly Buckle (Feb 28, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> After all this, I won't even be using this phrase. I'm coming to the end of MotherHUD and as always will put it in the drawer for a week before I make the final few passes. In the meantime, I'll be writing a Detective/Childrens short story. I couldn't decide which genre I was going to cover next so thought I'd combine them. I can't wait to get stuck into a new voice!



Check out 'A hundred million francs' by Paul Berna. Super kids book, it's stuck with me for well over sixty years and was part of the inspiration for 'Yard Dog'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUbXuFzi9v4


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## Phil Istine (Feb 28, 2021)

clark said:


> Llyra -- very quick: in 1917 the call went out for qualified soldiers to apply for the fledgling Royal Flying Corps. My Dad KNEW he'd fail the color-blind test--a flip-book of numbers buried in dots. In the bottom right corner of each card, in very small print, was the buried number for that card. My dad knew the officer flipping the cards and went to visit him as the line crept forward. Dad had acute eyesight and MEMORIZED the tiny numbers, upside down, and passed the test when it was his turn! Dad had the dubious distinction of being one of the many Allied pilots shot down by Baron von Richthofen. One bullet through the fleshy part of hjs upper arm was his only wound and he managed to land his smoking biplane and run away from it before it blew up.




Shot down by the Red Baron?  That sounds like quite a story.  There was even a song about it in the UK charts a few decades back.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 28, 2021)

clark said:


> Llyra -- very quick: in 1917 the call went out for qualified soldiers to apply for the fledgling Royal Flying Corps. My Dad KNEW he'd fail the color-blind test--a flip-book of numbers buried in dots. In the bottom right corner of each card, in very small print, was the buried number for that card. My dad knew the officer flipping the cards and went to visit him as the line crept forward. Dad had acute eyesight and MEMORIZED the tiny numbers, upside down, and passed the test when it was his turn! Dad had the dubious distinction of being one of the many Allied pilots shot down by Baron von Richthofen. One bullet through the fleshy part of hjs upper arm was his only wound and he managed to land his smoking biplane and run away from it before it blew up.



That's nothing. My father was shot down by my mother every day. And she was a commoner.


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## Matchu (Feb 28, 2021)

How would he know it was the red baron?


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## VRanger (Feb 28, 2021)

Matchu said:


> How would he know it was the red baron?




The red D.III (later Fokker DR.1) coming at you gives it away.


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## Matchu (Feb 28, 2021)

I hope you can see my picture.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 28, 2021)

You have to be a pantser to be in one of my threads ...


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## clark (Feb 28, 2021)

Yes . . . . .we all want to see the demise of "spanner eyes" :angel:layful:. Begone you addle-groined fuddle-clarity, we'll eagerly get no less of you! We is perfeshunall writers hear!


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## clark (Feb 28, 2021)

AZ: DAD: _I miss your mother. _SON: _Keep practicing , Dad. It pulls a bit to the right.

_:rofl:


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## Olly Buckle (Feb 28, 2021)

If it's a cliche don't use it because it's a cliche, if it isn't don't use it because no-one will understand WTF you are on about. Or, if it is and you don't mind cliches, dump it because it is in extremely poor taste.
Shoot him down Snoopy!


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## MistWolf (Feb 28, 2021)

clark said:


> AZ: DAD: _I miss your mother. _SON: _Keep practicing , Dad. It pulls a bit to the right.
> 
> _:rofl:


Stop jerking the trigger


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 28, 2021)

Hewlett said:


> Profesh writers but on da forum 24/8.
> 
> You can try to be subtle here. Or were you going for purposely hateful? Sometimes when I come across those kind of descriptions in stories, makes me wonder what the character would say about the author if they had a chance to come to life. :devilish:



Mmmm ...


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