# Character creation. Where to start and when to stop?



## Topper88 (Apr 16, 2013)

I'm very much a fan of process. Of course, everyone insists that you cannot put a process on writing, or indeed any form of art. But that doesn't mean I can't try to find one!

I've been playing around with designing characters using this chart







I'm under no illusion that you can completely describe a person in a chart, but again, _process_.

According to what I've read, a character arc involves breaking through each of these layers until you get to a person's very core, when an event would then change them on a profound level. You can't just argue against someone's opinions and expect a change in their personality, yet our opinions are generally all that we display. We get our opinions from our attitudes, which in turn come from our values, which come from our beliefs. So for example, Ebenezer Scrooge is of the _opinion _that Christmas is a humbug. This is because his _attitude _is that profit is more important than doing good, and Christmas is inherently about giving. That attitude stems from the fact that he _values _money over people, because he _believes _charity and love are pointless. Even if you change an opinion your attitude may remain the same, but if you change a lot of opinions, would you attitude change? And if your attitudes change, would your values change?

It seems like these phrases are interchangeable and arbitrary; I'm not entirely sure how much different one's "beliefs" are from one's "values", although there seems to be some truth in there.

Where do _you _start when fleshing out characters? How deeply do you flesh  out characters before writing them? Do you plan an arc for your main  character(s)? Can you describe your process?


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## namesake (Apr 16, 2013)

I think waiting a couple of days until the ideas are in the writer's head is important. However waiting being taken for granted. I read one way of constructing characters as listing similar and disimilar list of traits. Weaving all the characters bits(with good adjectives and dialogue), but with a ultimate purpose when you write it. (was a recent ciricitism of a short story I wrote, building scenes that connect and to expand it).

However I now turn to a writer's thesaurus for the character traits.


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## Leyline (Apr 16, 2013)

That chart is just a tool, and may very well help you with character creation. If so, it's a good tool.

But I don't think a chart (or any _codified_ process) would really work with the way I personally create characters, because I don't consider values, beliefs, attitude and opinion to be as clear cut or direct as that. I do believe that one of the dictates of empathy is to figure the other guy is probably as confused about personal motivation as I am. I like to write, and read, characters that are a bit messier than such a process would probably help craft. 

Once again, though, it may suit your needs perfectly. Giving it a try is probably relatively painless.


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## TheGrandWriter (Apr 16, 2013)

It's difficult to describe the process I go through for doing any aspect of writing; well, unless it's an essay. If it's a story though, it changes depending on how I'm feeling. I tend to spend days and weeks, sometimes months, just trying to get my characters to not be 2-dimensional. I spend the most time on my main character, but I spend a lot of time on most of my characters. Anyway, that doesn't answer your question.

I tend to write their names at the top of the page (sometimes, I just call them Bob or Jill until I can come up with a good name) and I underline it, and below their name I use bullet points or hyphens(and alternate if I need to elaborate a trait) to describe characteristics and traits they have and things that have happened to them and things they've done or do. I just basically try to get the gist of who these characters are. Then I, usually, at one point or another, write a biography for my characters. I start with where they're from and when they were born, what they were like when they were younger, what events happened to them to shape them and make them who they are. And I stop when the story begins and continue the biography when I'm done with the story.
After that, I just do whatever to try and understand them better. And get to know my characters like they are my best friend. Before I even start thinking about putting them in situations or arcs, I try and understand them. I have a chat with them in my mind to see what kind of things they would say. So, there really isn't, at least not for me, a clear process when it comes to character creation. Just do whatever you need to be able to practically touch your characters.

I don't plan an arch at all. I plan out what will happen in the story as a result of their actions as well as coincidence, and I ponder how they would change as a result of this. I'm not sure if other writers think that that's a wussy-way to go about that, but whatever.

There you go. I'm not sure if that answers your question, but I hope it does.


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## Jeko (Apr 16, 2013)

When to start: at the start of the story

When to stop: once it's published

Write the story, and all the depth and development the character needs to fulfill his goal should come about (or the story wouldn't make sense). Then, through rewriting you can improve your character's depth and development until they are the next Harry Potter.


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## Topper88 (Apr 16, 2013)

Cadence said:


> When to start: at the start of the story
> 
> When to stop: once it's published
> 
> Write the story, and all the depth and development the character needs to fulfill his goal should come about (or the story wouldn't make sense). Then, through rewriting you can improve your character's depth and development until they are the next Harry Potter.


Tried it. Not for me. I _need _a plan before moving forward.


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## Staff Deployment (Apr 16, 2013)

Topster said:


> I _need _a plan before moving forward.



What does the character want? Are they going after that? They should be going after that.
From the other thread it looks like you already figured that out. So what's the fuss then? Are you under some sort of impression that human beings can be defined by more than their fundamental desires?

[/CYNICISM]


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## moderan (Apr 16, 2013)

I used to use templates, and would fill them in religiously. Then one day the damn candle wax dripped on me while I was writing with illuminated ink, and I had to stop. From that day on, I simply tried to imagine talking to the characters as people and skip the writing-down thing. When I could get to remembering their names (I suck at that), I felt that I was good.
Sometimes I draw their faces. Sometimes I write short stories or bios. Other times I hold imaginary conversations while I shave or whatever.
Honestly, most of the time, I just start writing, and will only do one of the above if I have a problem. You need to find a system that works for you. Try everything, once.


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## Jeko (Apr 16, 2013)

> Tried it. Not for me. I _need a plan before moving forward._



Right. The story begins not when you start writing it, but when you first put one idea in front of another.

I merely mean you should never stop developing your characters as long as you are creating the story. That means planning, drafting and improving it.


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## Topper88 (Apr 16, 2013)

Staff Deployment said:


> What does the character want? Are they going after that? They should be going after that.
> From the other thread it looks like you already figured that out. So what's the fuss then? Are you under some sort of impression that human beings can be defined by more than their fundamental desires?
> 
> [/CYNICISM]


Heh. Yeah, although I don't think a character that is 3-dimensional is necessarily fleshed-out.


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## moderan (Apr 16, 2013)

Topster said:


> Heh. Yeah, although I don't think a character that is 3-dimensional is necessarily fleshed-out.


Okay. A character that has depth (the third of those three dimensions) isn't necessarily fleshed-out?
In what sense? 
What more would be necessary to make that leap?


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## Staff Deployment (Apr 16, 2013)

moderan said:


> Topster said:
> 
> 
> > Heh. Yeah, although I don't think a character that is 3-dimensional is necessarily fleshed-out.
> ...



A fourth dimension! A variable that defines a 3-dimensional position.

So wait okay a one-dimensional character has a name and a description. And a two-dimensional character has a personality tacked on. And a three-dimensional character behaves like a real person with thought-processes and personal desires and a balance between emotional and rational reasoning that determines which parts of their personality they express.

So... a four-dimensional character would be like that, except all of those aspects change throughout the course of the story as particular events and situations affect them personally. Does that sort of work?


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## Jeko (Apr 16, 2013)

Err... no.

You defined a 3-dimensional character. For me, at least.


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## Elvenswordsman (Apr 16, 2013)

Watch out. This whole "Planning" thing can really lead to a loop of endless nothing. There are lots of quotes in the world that talk about how thought is great, but it's action that matters. The problem with planning is, at least with me, it just continues. I can plan this novel, and then perhaps the novel that follows requires planning, and things just end up looking like a spider web that I no longer want to fill in because I've written the story, only without the wordiness.

Good luck writing, I hope your plans come to fruition, but your best bet is to sit down and write it out. 

Also, characters flush themselves out as long as your writing is quality. You'll know if a character is weak after a review of your writings.


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## Nickleby (Apr 16, 2013)

Topster said:


> ... Where do _you _start when fleshing out characters? How deeply do you flesh  out characters before writing them? Do you plan an arc for your main  character(s)? Can you describe your process?



I'd like to describe my process, but the patent is still pending...:smile:

When you apply a process to writing, I think the goal is to turn up gaps. For instance, you could make a table of each character's main traits and find out that the sergeant major doesn't have a family. Well, he might, it's just that you haven't gotten around to giving him one. And now that you think of it, a nagging mother and an alcoholic father could account for his trigger-happy behavior. ... You get the idea.

One way I develop a character is, when I give him/her a trait (whether or not it's germane to the plot), I ask myself why he/she acts that way. A bad temper might mean the boss is frustrated by his, uh, "romantic shortcomings." A suspicious nature might come from a childhood adventure where curiosity led too far and resulted in a minor but painful injury. Those influences may not make into the story, but they give you some insight. When you have enough insight, you know that character. When you know your characters, you should have no trouble writing about them.


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## JosephB (Apr 16, 2013)

You can assign all the attributes you want, but you never know what a character is really like until you put him in the middle of something. Kind of like real life.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Apr 16, 2013)

JosephB said:


> You can assign all the attributes you want, but you never know what a character is really like until you put him in the middle of something. Kind of like real life.



Very true.  I found out more about my characters as I wrote my story than I ever knew when I was planning them.


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## Topper88 (Apr 16, 2013)

moderan said:


> Okay. A character that has depth (the third of those three dimensions) isn't necessarily fleshed-out?
> In what sense?
> What more would be necessary to make that leap?


I'm probably bastardizing the terms here, but my meaning is that while a 3D man appears believable in a scene, that doesn't mean that man also has a life apart from the scene they are in, like a backstory, a family, political opinions, erectile dysfunction, etc.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Apr 16, 2013)

Topster said:


> I'm probably bastardizing the terms here, but my meaning is that while a 3D man appears believable in a scene, that doesn't mean that man also has a life apart from the scene they are in, like a backstory, a family, political opinions, erectile dysfunction, etc.



So he's more like a Magic Eye character, eh?


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## ppsage (Apr 16, 2013)

No matter how well planned and fleshed the character, how this is communicated is where the rubber meets the road. The character developement exercises I've felt most useful asked questions about characteristic behaviors. What does she always do when she's nervous? What does she yelp when she's excited? What stupid little thing always scares her half to death? What does she reach for when somebody needs taught an immediate lesson with physical reinforcement? Does she say Mister for a while or go straight to first names? Does she carry a condom because men are so stupid? These are the sort of characteristic behaviors which, over the long haul, actually indicate motivation. These are the actual things the reader looks for in real life, to understand people. A big part of the trick is to find the right set of telling detail for a character, and some exercises can help do that.


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## JosephB (Apr 16, 2013)

That's more or less how I look at it. I develop my characters in my head along with the story, mostly before I start writing. The story shapes the character and vice versa -- it's not a chicken and egg type of thing. Sure -- I imagine characteristics and pieces of back-story that don't make it onto the page, but I don't really look at story and character development as two separate things. Like I said, to me it's mostly about how people react to circumstances -- and I can't really see that without a story.


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## Staff Deployment (Apr 16, 2013)

One character started out as a blank slate meant to absorb information for the reader as other characters did all the work. Now she's so ridiculously complicated that the roles have basically reversed; I often get other characters to stop her in the middle of something and get her to explain herself, because otherwise they would have no idea what's going on.

Another character started out as an invincible, infallible warrior-poet who was dashingly handsome and punishingly charismatic. I kept toning him down and finding reasons to bring him back to a human level. Now he can barely hold a conversation, he's dependent on others to keep himself groomed and halfway presentable, and he's a sociopath (not in the attractive, broody way -- the nerdy, repressed, off-putting way). In fact all he has going for him is the fact that he is really, really good at killing people. ...Wow, and this is one of my main characters, that's horrible.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Apr 16, 2013)

Staff Deployment said:


> Another character started out as an invincible, infallible warrior-poet who was dashingly handsome and punishingly charismatic. I kept toning him down and finding reasons to bring him back to a human level. Now he can barely hold a conversation, he's dependent on others to keep himself groomed and halfway presentable, and he's a sociopath (not in the attractive, broody way -- the nerdy, repressed, off-putting way). In fact all he has going for him is the fact that he is really, really good at killing people. ...Wow, and this is one of my main characters, that's horrible.



A similar thing happened with me.  As my story progressed, my characters became more and more broken.  Some authors live through their characters; I wouldn't want to be any of mine.


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## Dictarium (Apr 16, 2013)

I like to figure out all those things AS I write. I typically start each character with a specific character trait, sort of a "Seven Dwarves" scenario. Then from there I gradually, through exposition and character development, I figure out on my own how everyone feels about things and how they act.


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## luckyscars (Apr 17, 2013)

OP: I completely fail to see how that pretty chart you made actually assists in the creation of a good story. You didn't really explain how you use such a thing. Would you care to?

I am a staunch defender of process also. But that doesn't mean I think the whole thing can or should be a matter of process and formula. One needs a measure of 'seat of pants'. Otherwise I find its less a matter of creating and more of manufacturing.


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## Sam (Apr 17, 2013)

Topster said:


> I'm very much a fan of process. Of course, everyone insists that you cannot put a process on writing, or indeed any form of art. But that doesn't mean I can't try to find one!
> 
> I've been playing around with designing characters using this chart
> 
> ...



Eh . . . no. Do you ever meet someone and examine their every facet in order to make an archetype like the one above? I don't think so. Why should creating a character be any different? 

Characterisation happens when somebody is forced into an unexpected situation. I don't know if you've ever heard of Milton Friedman, but he was one of the greatest economists of the 20th Century. He wrote an op-ed for the _Wall Street Journal _in which he said, "Only crisis produces real change". He was talking about capitalism's core nostrum, but it is nonetheless very relevant to character-building. Only a situation of crisis can change a character (for better or worse). It isn't until people become embroiled in a difficult struggle that they find out who they really are. That's the core nostrum of characterisation. You take a character who is, for example, self-absorbed and cowardly. You then throw everything you can possibly throw at them. And you wait until that character finds a way to extricate themselves from their plight. Along the way, they will find their courage and humility (or whatever trait you wish them to achieve). It's not about back-story. That's used to flesh-out characters and make readers empathise with them. True characterisation comes from a moment of self-discovery brought on by sudden and, in some cases, irreparable change.


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## Grape Juice Vampire (Apr 17, 2013)

Beyond a basic outline I don't have a creation process, it all happens in story as I write and the results feel more natural and realistic to me. Of course, this came about after a lot of trial and error to see what worked for me.


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## moderan (Apr 17, 2013)

Topster said:


> I'm probably bastardizing the terms here, but my meaning is that while a 3D man appears believable in a scene, that doesn't mean that man also has a life apart from the scene they are in, like a backstory, a family, political opinions, erectile dysfunction, etc.


Um, that's depth. That's what a three-dimensional character is, one with depth. You're confusing a 2D character, that appears ok from the front, but when seen from the side, is cut out of a big piece of cardboard, with a well-developed one.
It's overthinking. Just relax and let your characters enjoy their lives, and they'll get real when they need to.


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## JosephB (Apr 17, 2013)

Sam said:


> Characterisation happens when somebody is forced into an unexpected situation...True characterisation comes from a moment of self-discovery brought on by sudden and, in some cases, irreparable change.



No doubt, that's one way to approach it. But some of my favorite stories, including some of mine own, are about not changing despite the circumstances. In one of my favorite novels, _Revolutionary Road,_ both the main characters try to force themselves to change for each other, but they can't -- and despite trying, they can't compromise -- and that leads to disaster. 

Another way to approach it -- a character rises to the occasion, and it appears he'll change, but he doesn't. Much of the time, that's how it is in real life, because as much as we'd like to believe people change or are shaped by extraordinary circumstances -- they often go back to business as usual.

Of course, your point is still valid -- it's the circumstances that reveal character -- whether it changes them or not. And they don't even have to be extraordinary -- sometime it's just about living or surviving or trying to find happiness or contentment day-to-day.

P.S. and along those lines -- I don't believe a character has to be complex at all -- just conflicted -- or even ambivalent, and the other characters are affected by that. There's often not much point in going out of your way to make characters more complicated than they need to be in some attempt to make them "interesting." Again, most of it has to do with circumstances.


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## Pluralized (Apr 17, 2013)

I read _A Hunger Artist _by Kafka last night, and that's a great example of a character whose inner conflict comes from the world changing around him, and stubbornly adhering to his persona despite the inert antagonist (hordes of onlookers, society at large) changing their fickle tastes which implies his diminished value. Simply stated character sketch that made me think about the myriad ways in which a character can be made to be fascinating, and not always predictable.


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## Staff Deployment (Apr 17, 2013)

Personally, I don't think the Hunger Artist was being stubborn. Fasting was all he could do; what else was there for him? He fasts, regardless of attention, because there is no food that tastes good to him.

The new Bond movie is a very good example of your point, however. James Bond 'stubbornly adheres to his persona' despite the changing nature of society. It's the major theme of the movie.


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## Morkonan (Apr 17, 2013)

Topster said:


> I'm very much a fan of process. Of course, everyone insists that you cannot put a process on writing, or indeed any form of art. But that doesn't mean I can't try to find one!
> 
> I've been playing around with designing characters using this chart...
> 
> Where do _you _start when fleshing out characters? How deeply do you flesh  out characters before writing them? Do you plan an arc for your main  character(s)? Can you describe your process?



Of what consequence is any of that if it is not depicted in a story? (There's also a bit of redundancy in your categories, though concise definitions for each might clear that up.)

The only thing I worry about is what I'm going to portray in the story and how much of that is going to be shaped by things the character is going to "bring" with them. Now, I admit, a lot of that is just intuitive - I don't have a need to chart out such things as a general rule.

First, I think one needs to decide if their story is going to be character or plot driven. Then, they need to decide what aspects of the character are going to be important. A character-driven story is going to rely heavily on the motivations of the character and their values as well as their past experiences. But, a plot drive story may also rely on these as the character reacts to events. In each case, the character's values and judgement are important, but in one they influence the progression of events and, in the other, they influence the character's reaction to them. (Though, the two sorts of character-centric stories are not mutually exclusive.) If your story relies heavily on using your character's traits as a foil, then I it's a good idea to map out some broad strokes of character attributes first. But, I wouldn't get too detailed or nitpicky with it. Leave some room. 

For myself, I think of the sort of life a character has had, if much of any, and what sort of person it might make them out to be. I also throw in any setting-specific bits that would influence the development of a character up to the point that the story begins. If I want to address specific values, behaviors or personalities, I will craft those into the character as their pre-history has shaped them. The rest of the character's development takes place in the story and that's where I leave it.

If I'm stumped, I'll "interview" the character in development work by simply starting a new file and then going through a series of questions that are designed to help me figure out "who" this particular character is and how they need to be portrayed. I did that as a matter of course, at one time, but have found it's really not necessary for every character nor even when working on every story. But, if you need it, it can certainly help you discover the character.


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## Pluralized (Apr 17, 2013)

Staff Deployment said:


> Personally, I don't think the Hunger Artist was being stubborn. Fasting was all he could do; what else was there for him? He fasts, regardless of attention, because there is no food that tastes good to him.
> 
> The new Bond movie is a very good example of your point, however. James Bond 'stubbornly adheres to his persona' despite the changing nature of society. It's the major theme of the movie.



Indeed, you're right. However, I do not believe the Hunger Artist gave Mexican food a proper try.


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