# Over-thinking, or legit issue (regarding social awareness in my writing)



## The Green Shield (Apr 5, 2021)

Potential Trigger Warning about race?
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So recently Twitter got into a war over the fact that there's a lack of diversity within the publishing world, ie that white authors write about POC/cultures and get praised for it while the POC from that culture get ignored because they're apparently not 'legit'.


That got me thinking. I'm writing high fantasy and while none of my characters obviously borrow from real-world cultures (meaning there's no transplanted Japan in my story -- none of my characters are meant to be any real-world ethnicities), there are characters whose names you'd find in, say, Eastern culture like 'Mishu Jerni' or 'Albius Hak'.


Either I'm just noticing a potential issue with my story, or I'm wholly misinterpreting the discussion, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't stepping on any toes by having half-assed versions of real cultures in my fantasy and be just another white idiot thinking he can just yoink random bits of cultures from our world into his story.


So, what do you think? Overthinking once again or is this a legit thing I need to look at?


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## Foxee (Apr 5, 2021)

The Green Shield said:


> So recently Twitter got into a war over the fact that there's a lack of diversity within the publishing world, ie that white authors write about POC/cultures and get praised for it while the POC from that culture get ignored because they're apparently not 'legit'.


This is why I don't do Twitter.

Publishers want to publish books that sell. Writers do 'immersion research' -- immersing themselves in the culture that they'd like to write about -- in order to be authentic. Someone from a particular culture would already know the culture so the writing would automatically be authentic. Since this is highly desirable I don't really believe that there is this race difficulty in publishing that Twitter seems to think is there.


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## Xander416 (Apr 5, 2021)

I think you're overthinking it. I'm pretty well-read in history, but I never would have taken a name like "Albius Hak" as anything but made up. The way I see it, somebody in the world somewhere is going to be offended by something I do just through the course of my daily life no matter what I intend or how I try to mitigate it, so why worry about it? It's not like I'm out committing hate crimes.


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## Cephus (Apr 5, 2021)

Twitter is a complete cesspool. Don't do that to yourself.


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## The Green Shield (Apr 6, 2021)

Cephus said:


> Twitter is a complete cesspool. Don't do that to yourself.


It is, I don't doubt it. That said, I can't just ignore legit complaints from Asian authors/readers who go, 'OK, I'm sick to death of white authors appropriating _my culture_ into their work and get lauded for it while I get completely ignored." 

I think this will be something I have to keep in mind. Even if the countries Mishu and Albius Hak are from are NOT heavily based on real-world Asian countries, even if they're their own unique cultures with their own unique traditions, perhaps it's worth thinking about if I'm having characters with obvious Asian-like names. Ditto if I have a character with a Middle Eastern-like name, etc.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Apr 6, 2021)

Ignore is the most powerful 21st century word. Ignorance is the most detrimental 21st century word.


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## The Green Shield (Apr 6, 2021)

Xander416 said:


> I think you're overthinking it. I'm pretty well-read in history, but I never would have taken a name like "Albius Hak" as anything but made up. The way I see it, somebody in the world somewhere is going to be offended by something I do just through the course of my daily life no matter what I intend or how I try to mitigate it, so why worry about it? It's not like I'm out committing hate crimes.


Thing is, 'Hak' is a legit Cambodian surname. I know this because one of my friends is Cambodian, named Bonthouen Hak. I did ask him if it were OK to use his surname, and he said yes. He especially liked it when I told him Hak was a badass general. 

I believe the lesson here is, research the names. :3


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## bazz cargo (Apr 6, 2021)

Right now Joss Whedon, is rightly being pilloried for some very disturbing behaviour. Yet his Firefly series is an amazing piece of work. I can see why the studio cancelled it. The darkly coloured cultural mishmash it is set in is enough to set it apart from the Star Trek universe that all money orientated executives aspire to. A lot, and I mean a hell of a lot, of writing is about culture clashes. About getting out of your rut and seeing the world from a different perspective. Science Fiction is particularly good at this. Don't restrict yourself.

As  for the publishing industry, who here has read a book by a writer from an ethnic minority? 



The Green Shield said:


> Potential Trigger Warning about race?
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## Foxee (Apr 6, 2021)

The Green Shield said:


> It is, I don't doubt it. That said, I can't just ignore legit complaints from Asian authors/readers who go, 'OK, I'm sick to death of white authors appropriating _my culture_ into their work and get lauded for it while I get completely ignored."


Name recognition is a thing that belongs under the heading 'Marketing' in this wonderful/terrible pursuit of writing and publishing. I was just at the beginning of thinking that I could write a book when I was in a book store and saw a big display for a book titled _Star_ by PAMELA ANDERSON.

Pamela freakin' ANDERSON. 

She might not be a big name now but she had lots of name recognition at that point as an actress and for her looks, honestly. Blonde bombshell all the way. She was smart enough to take her name recognition, her brand, and capitalize on it. The books are ghostwritten by someone who could see at least some guaranteed sales because of the name.

Why do I mention this?

All of us have the name recognition problem unless we're a celebrity. Notice how many actors and politicians (especially disgraced politicians) and political commentators write books. It's not all because they had a burning desire to write a book it's because they're pretty sure that they have enough brand recognition to sell some books.

So is it racial prejudice if an unknown Asian author (I'm not even trying to make a determination if their work is good or if it sucks though that should be a consideration as well) has to battle to get representation or a contract or get enough attention to sell books? Or is it the fact that they're participating in the same marketplace toiling up the same hill as the rest of us? 

Just because I might complain about something that I think is happening doesn't mean it is and I don't think I'm alone in that.


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## Cephus (Apr 6, 2021)

The Green Shield said:


> It is, I don't doubt it. That said, I can't just ignore legit complaints from Asian authors/readers who go, 'OK, I'm sick to death of white authors appropriating _my culture_ into their work and get lauded for it while I get completely ignored."
> 
> I think this will be something I have to keep in mind. Even if the countries Mishu and Albius Hak are from are NOT heavily based on real-world Asian countries, even if they're their own unique cultures with their own unique traditions, perhaps it's worth thinking about if I'm having characters with obvious Asian-like names. Ditto if I have a character with a Middle Eastern-like name, etc.



Why do you give a crap what anyone says online? Honestly, answer the question. What some whiny idiot says doesn't matter. Just write what you want to write and avoid the morons.


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## Tettsuo (Apr 6, 2021)

The Green Shield said:


> It is, I don't doubt it. That said, I can't just ignore legit complaints from Asian authors/readers who go, 'OK, I'm sick to death of white authors appropriating _my culture_ into their work and get lauded for it while I get completely ignored."


Maybe the problem is your writing unnamed Asian authors. Assuming it's because the writer is a different color is WAY weird, as 99% of the time, you've no idea what the race of the writer is.

 I've no problem with people writing other cultures, so long as it's respected and well-done. Robert Downey Jr., performed in black face for the majority of the film "Tropic Thunder". The vast majority of black people enjoyed it. Why? Because he did a damn good job being a black guy. The problem is often the caricatures, steeped in silly stereotypes, that pisses people off. Honor the people and culture and it won't matter. Oh, and stay away from the "white savior" trope. It's gross and massively overdone.



> I think this will be something I have to keep in mind. Even if the countries Mishu and Albius Hak are from are NOT heavily based on real-world Asian countries, even if they're their own unique cultures with their own unique traditions, perhaps it's worth thinking about if I'm having characters with obvious Asian-like names. Ditto if I have a character with a Middle Eastern-like name, etc.


So what if the people are transplants from a different country? They were born and raised in their adopted lands, and thus, behave as the people do. Would the names heavily influence their behaviors or cultural identification? Heck, our daughter's name is Indian in origin, but we are clearly not Indian. We liked the name and it's meaning. So don't put too much value on the names.


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## apocalypsegal (Apr 6, 2021)

The thing is, you can throw a pillow and hit someone who is going to hate your book, who will think you "stole" their culture in writing it, or whatever might stick in their craw that day. *All any of us can do is be honest when writing characters that are not ourselves.* A woman can write about men, men about women, whites about blacks, blacks about Asians, on and on. Be respectful, avoid stereotypes -- black men are pimps, basketball players, drug addicts, or rap singers -- (though some are indeed one or maybe even all of those things, not every single one), women are weak, or ballbreakers, Asians are all super smart, Jews are moneygrabbing crooks, whatever it may be.

It's actually easy to write about anyone, if you take the time to research, to get to know people, to understand that at the base, we are all human beings, we want the same things, we celebrate or mourn the same things. Get out there and meet people. Talk to those with a different culture, who grew up poor or rich, religious or not, pretty/handsome or not. As a writer, knowledge and experience are your best tools.

And for the record, Twitter is almost always in an uproar about something. Non-representation in anything has been around a long time, and many of us have been working hard to make that change.


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## Henny (Apr 6, 2021)

*Twitter is toxic to me*



The Green Shield said:


> Potential Trigger Warning about race?
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I dont do twitter anymore

Too much toxicity for me in there, I can't get to write my thoughts peacefully, I thought It was a good outlet but. Nah, I tried tumblr instead. I suggest you try it. Tumblr became my online diary now.


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## Xander416 (Apr 6, 2021)

The Green Shield said:


> It is, I don't doubt it. That said, I can't just ignore legit complaints from Asian authors/readers who go, 'OK, I'm sick to death of white authors appropriating _my culture_ into their work and get lauded for it while I get completely ignored."
> 
> I think this will be something I have to keep in mind. Even if the countries Mishu and Albius Hak are from are NOT heavily based on real-world Asian countries, even if they're their own unique cultures with their own unique traditions, perhaps it's worth thinking about if I'm having characters with obvious Asian-like names. Ditto if I have a character with a Middle Eastern-like name, etc.


What's the alternative, then? Have nothing but characters matching our own individual race populating our works? Sounds like an easy route to being deemed racist. I include characters of all races on all sides of the moral spectrum because it's an accurate depiction of the world we live in, not because I want to "appropriate" their cultures. If someone takes issue with that, it's _their_ problem. This toe stepping around race that people are being forced to do these days has degraded into outright madness.


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## EternalGreen (Apr 6, 2021)

legit issue


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## ironpony (Apr 6, 2021)

The Green Shield said:


> Potential Trigger Warning about race?
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The author who wrote Memoirs of a Geisha is a white American, and he wrote a novel set in Japan and it became a best seller.  So perhaps a lot of people don't care therefore?


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## Xander416 (Apr 7, 2021)

ironpony said:


> The author who wrote Memoirs of a Geisha is a white American, and he wrote a novel set in Japan and it became a best seller.  So perhaps a lot of people don't care therefore?


The problem is that today we're stuck dealing with a culture of perpetual victimhood where anything and everything in regards white people's interactions with minorities is seen as some kind of slight against them. Tettsuo's question here, at least from my interpretation (Tettsuo, if I'm incorrect, please feel free to clarify) seems to boil down to whether or not it's acceptable to simply include Asian or Asian-inspired people in his story, the whole idea of which I think is downright absurd.


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## Cephus (Apr 7, 2021)

Xander416 said:


> The problem is that today we're stuck dealing with a culture of perpetual victimhood where anything and everything in regards white people's interactions with minorities is seen as some kind of slight against them. Tettsuo's question here, at least from my interpretation (Tettsuo, if I'm incorrect, please feel free to clarify) seems to boil down to whether or not it's acceptable to simply include Asian or Asian-inspired people in his story, the whole idea of which I think is downright absurd.



And honestly, more people need to be willing to tell those people what to go do with themselves, graphically, rather than caving in to the identity politics machine. Authors are not beholden to the mad ramblings of the clueless crowd. People can write what they want. The fact that people still ask about this shows that we're not getting the word out.


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## VRanger (Apr 7, 2021)

Xander416 said:


> What's the alternative, then? Have nothing but characters matching our own individual race populating our works? Sounds like an easy route to being deemed racist. I include characters of all races on all sides of the moral spectrum because it's an accurate depiction of the world we live in, not because I want to "appropriate" their cultures. If someone takes issue with that, it's _their_ problem. This toe stepping around race that people are being forced to do these days has degraded into outright madness.



"Cultural appropriation" is just another of many pieces of sociological nonsense thought up by people who have nothing better to do, and evidently no time to think at all. If white Americans didn't appreciate Mexican food, there would be far fewer viable Mexican restaurants in the USA. Oh, but the faithful would say, "Cultural Appropriation" is when a non-Mexican opens a Mexican restaurant. (That's a lie, because I see the accusation made in many other situations, but that's what they say). Again, nonsense. If this is valid, the rest of the world can stop wearing Western clothing, serving Western food in their own restaurants, operating factories to MAKE Western clothing and myriad other products for their own profit ... and on and on. But guess what? I have YET to complain if people in China or Japan or Palestine or Uganda want to wear Western clothing. It doesn't threaten or insult me in any way.

A new Mexican restaurant recently opened in our town. Half their menu is Mexican, and half their menu is not. Should I go picket them and charge them with "cultural appropriation"? Certainly not, because I have a lick of sense, AND respect for them to serve whatever pleases them that makes their business a success. What is called "cultural appropriation" is virtually ALWAYS "cultural APPRECIATION", which is a compliment, not a slight.


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## BornForBurning (Apr 9, 2021)

There's a weird meta-argument to be made that if it's coming out of your mouth, it's inalienably your story, no matter what you are drawing from. The concept of 'my culture' is a strange one. As a young American, I struggle with it due to our intense social isolation. Culture could be seen as the kind of thing where contact implies ownership. Ideas are held nowhere but the mind; once they're there, there is no getting them out. No, I'm not going to have the same conception of the Kimono as a Japanese woman born in the 1920s. But I am going to have _a_ conception, and I'm perfectly capable of writing about _that_. 


> legit issue


tell us more, dissenting opinion


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## EternalGreen (Apr 9, 2021)

BornForBurning said:


> tell us more, dissenting opinion



About how cultural appropriation is real? I am no expert on this topic, but I know enough to hold justified belief.

Call it whatever you like, "cultural appropriation" is an unequal exchange of culture between two groups of _unequal power_.

If black musicians get ignored on the basis of their race, which they do, and Elvis Presley gets famous based on the false belief he invented their music, that's an unequal exchange.

People might say that _ideas_ comprise culture and ideas can't be stolen. That's not entirely true. In computing, when a piece of information is "moved," it's actually being deleted in one place and copied in another place. If the privileged group destroys the oppressed group's culture then recreates a mockery of it for their own purposes, how else can we describe that than as a _coercive __motion_ of ideas, a _theft_?

Don't take my word for it. Go read. Education can really change your life; it did for me.


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## Theglasshouse (Apr 9, 2021)

To add to eternal green's opinion. Culture and language is mainly American and English which is true in the USA. Most history seems to emphasize the accomplishments that aren't achieved by minorities. History has been used as a tool to create a perception of different cultures such as immigrants in some countries like my own. You either fail to learn English as a student or they take you out of school in the USA. Cultures are erased by a process I think is called cultural assimilation.

https://www.google.com/search?q=cul...hUKEwiCidngt_LvAhU5RDABHRSbD2EQ4dUDCAc&uact=5



> *Cultural assimilation* is the process in which a minority group or *culture* comes to resemble a society's majority group or assume the values, behaviors, and beliefs of another group whether fully or partially .



I don't honestly think you can please both people, minorities and people who are not minorities. I don't know what to suggest other than to write what you please. That is I think fiction needs representation. But at the same time, I wouldn't fault anyone based on race to write about a different race. I'd be inclusive in fiction. I'd like to think stereotypes does damage culturally. Don't use stereotypes and write about a unique experience if you have the research to support it. Do justice by creating a stereotype character that erases the perception of what it means to be that character. I would call this a new experience, that many racial minorities would be willing to tell.


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## Ajoy (Apr 11, 2021)

I think the issue is completely legit and as writers in this day and age, it is our job to ask the kind of questions you are asking and look at our writing critically through lenses such as cultural appropriation and representation. 

I cannot remember where I read it, but once piece of advice that I did come across was to yes, include diverse characters, but in most cases it is best not to write a POV character from an identity group significantly different from your own. Like, as a white person, don't write a story of the black experience...I think this is generally good advice. That said, I think writing stories with diverse characters is important, but probably a good idea to also get some diversity in the beta readers to make sure representation was respectful and accurate. 

I honestly think that the example for your situation is probably fine, but great that you're looking at it critically.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Apr 11, 2021)

Write what you want, when you want. Don't use Twitter, Facebook or watch mainstream media. Unless you actually want cliches. In which case reverse the advised.


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## EternalGreen (Apr 11, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> Write what you want, when you want. Don't use Twitter, Facebook or watch mainstream media. Unless you actually want cliches. In which case reverse the advised.



So write the Turner Diaries if you feel like it?

Forget the medium of critique. I don't use social media, and here I am performing the dreaded role of _SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIOR_ you have heard so much about.

You _could _just ignore problems that don't effect you and plug your ears when people say you're contributing to them, but is that really how you want to live life?

I don't know about you, but if someone asks me to consider if my work is hurting people for a few literal minutes, I might actually do it.

As artists, the value of our work comes from the thoughts and feelings it invokes in other people. If other people think your work is overbearing, ignorant, and hurtful, it might be because that work is bad.

No one wants to be like a bad comedian who complains he's being "cancelled by the SJWs" when no one laughs at his jokes.

Only a terrible chef responds to all criticism with "I cook what I want!"


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## Kent_Jacobs (Apr 11, 2021)

EternalGreen said:


> So write the Turner Diaries if you feel like it?
> 
> Forget the medium of critique. I don't use social media, and here I am performing the dreaded role of _SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIOR_ you have heard so much about.
> 
> ...



I cook what I want.


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## EternalGreen (Apr 11, 2021)

Okay. If you want to make a dish of raw hamburger and a fountain of scampering ants, feel free. But if you serve that to your customers, you’re losing your license.


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## Theglasshouse (Apr 11, 2021)

A lot of issues written by the media and press don't represent an individual as they should. They have done sociological studies on movies. Categorizing an individual can lead to discrimination and prejudice. They have done a lot of sociological studies on movies.

https://opentextbc.ca/socialpsychology/chapter/reducing-discrimination/

According to the above link it's ok to socialize and group with a certain ethnic group.

Philip lopate has a quite contrary view. He says in his book:  "to show and tell: the craft of literary nonfiction," that there are idiosyncrasies, tics, anti-social mannerisms and that sets people apart from the majority.

Culture okay if I were to paraphrase him is a goldmine, source, and a way to erase perceptions and rewrite cliches.

Part of an essayist 's job is to rescue a word that has fallen under a disapproving shadow and turn it into a more positive light. ( page 71)

My words not his ( he has a different opinion than me) he disagrees with writings characters with the potential to offend people. He says facts are marvelous at delimiting and inscribing destinies. Say if you are a Mormon or a Jew. Or even if the person's sexual identity is different. He says make facts up and also include the truth. Narrative essayists supposedly tell a story. What is more he says it's somewhat possible you just need to have sympathy and research.

Montaigne wrote an essay that people born with one less human organ such as an eye for example are not monsters.  It's rare to relate to people's inconsistencies and flaws. But he wrote essays to humanize people faced with prejudice. 

This is a tall order and is a difficult subject to write without offending people.

If you want to truly write the other character Philip lopate says read every literature you can find on it such as essays and read literature on this very people you are writing about. Study lopate 's list of essayists to understand how to depict their feelings to.learn their emotions, and etc what has been mentioned. This helps create sympathy in the mind of the reader.

I have a book of the essays he compiled in a volume.

One of the recommend autobiographies on racism is: "incidents in the life of a slave girl,"which is in the public domain. Which would look at racism through the eyes of someone who faced that crisis.

I recommend Philip lopate's book for the recommended list on what to read. I can copy and paste some suggestions from the book I own. He has a huge essay collection in one volume which I own but maybe I can type up the title. Maybe I will type it later as I forgot the name. It is also by Philip lopate.

Read autobiography, memoirs, diaries, memoirs, recent essayists, letters, history about the character you want or wish to portray. Classic essays also help to elucidate what is on his reading list such as Montaigne.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Apr 11, 2021)

EternalGreen said:


> Okay. If you want to make a dish of raw hamburger and a fountain of scampering ants, feel free. But if you serve that to your customers, you’re losing your license.



More people like raw meat than not. It's just that Twitter, Facebook and the mainstream media convince people otherwise. I write for the real world, not some extended adolescence masquerading as virtue.


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## BornForBurning (Apr 11, 2021)

> Turner Diaries


Turner Diaries is a good case-study because while it certainly has artistic merit (or at least artistic competency) it is severely lacking in the realms of moral merit. I see a couple interesting ideas floating around here...morality outsourced to individual affection (Az) morality outsourced to collective affection (EG), and morality derived from an external standard. One of the difficult things about the Turner Diaries is that while many might argue "that hurts me" there are a minority of others who would argue with equal fervor "this helps me." Deriving morality from the reactions of others is essentially impossible due to the variability of human affection, so I'm extremely skeptical of any moral system that roots its authority in the alleged 'experiences' of humanity. Like it or not, everyone here holds the same skepticism to some degree: we have all rejected genuine critique of our work because we believed, on some level, that the perceptions (or articulations) of a reader were off-base. There was an implicit outsourcing of artistic merit to some unspoken external monolith, some concept of what a specific piece was, or ought to be, or how it ought to be perceived. 

This is a very long-winded way of saying that when people claim cultural appropriation is harmful, I'm skeptical, if only because there's a failure to explain why cultural appropriation is immoral in the first place. I'd also like to point out that much contemporary horror is just as needlessly violent and hateful as the Turner Diaries, but for some reason no one cares because it "isn't racist." Literally the "I hate everyone equally" meme.


> More people like raw meat than not. It's just that Twitter, Facebook and the mainstream media convince people otherwise. I write for the real world, not some extended adolescence masquerading as virtue


This is a really weird point to make about The Turner Diaries, of all things.


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## EternalGreen (Apr 11, 2021)

I do not believe writing the Turner Diaries was morally wrong _because _it is bad art. However, I do believe that the value of art is derived from people's feelings.

The Turner Diaries inspired multiple murders in the real world. In the same way, books that promote harmful stereotypes to a lesser extent can lead to discrimination.

On the other hand, things like violent video games, despite what baby boomers claim, do not cause real-world violence.


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## Ajoy (Apr 11, 2021)

BornForBurning said:


> This is a very long-winded way of saying that when people claim cultural appropriation is harmful, I'm skeptical, if only because there's a failure to explain why cultural appropriation is immoral in the first place.



I've been doing a lot of anti-racism reading and self education lately. I'm still very much learning, but the sense that I get is that because cultural appropriation describes the practice of typically western-culture/whites exploiting the practices/art/etc. of non-western/non-white people, the immorality would come in the continued exploitation of a marginalized group by a dominant group. 

One example can be seen with sports teams that make money (for mostly white people) off of mascots or names depicting aspects of native culture while people of that native culture have been systematically removed through genocide, forced assimilation (where the very cultural elements being mocked and exploited are forbidden to the people being assimilated), and eugenics (blood quantum requirements), causing harm continuing to this day (by white people and the western system). While that is not a direct cause and effect, the cultural appropriation in that case is just another part of a system of harm that has been going strong for hundreds of years. The immorality comes in knowingly continuing to participate in that system of harm.

There are so many examples that fit into this, but going back to the OP's concern, white author's benefiting from writing about marginalized groups while the people from those groups get passed over - as writers, I think we can at least analyze what we're doing from a cultural appropriation lense with a critical eye, and work not to participate in the system of harm.


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## VRanger (Apr 11, 2021)

EternalGreen said:


> On the other hand, things like violent video games, despite what baby boomers claim, do not cause real-world violence.



It's been proposed by defense attorneys at trial for at least 16 years. Major case in Canada last year.


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## Cephus (Apr 11, 2021)

vranger said:


> It's been proposed by defense attorneys at trial for at least 16 years. Major case in Canada last year.



Sure but they'll try anything to make a buck. There is no scientific validity behind it at all.


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## VRanger (Apr 11, 2021)

Cephus said:


> Sure but they'll try anything to make a buck. There is no scientific validity behind it at all.



Actually, there's a lot. The APA (American Psychological Association):

"Some studies have yielded nonsignificant video game effects, just as some smoking studies failed to find a significant link to lung cancer. But when one combines all relevant empirical studies using meta-analytic techniques, five separate effects emerge with considerable consistency. Violent video games are significantly associated with: increased aggressive behavior, thoughts, and affect; increased physiological arousal; and decreased prosocial (helping) behavior. Average effect sizes for experimental studies (which help establish causality) and correlational studies (which allow examination of serious violent behavior) appear comparable (Anderson & Bushman, 2001)."

Craig A. Anderson, PhD

BTW, I'm not saying it should be a _valid _defense in any crime. How someone gets mean and/or stupid doesn't matter.


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## indianroads (Apr 11, 2021)

I don’t worry too much about social issues. I do my best to treat my characters with respect (even the antagonists) and portrait them honestly.


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## BornForBurning (Apr 12, 2021)

> Actually, there's a lot. The APA (American Psychological Association):


I did not know any of that, but I've been saying this for years, just based on personal observation. For background, I was intensely into video games for years. I have seen close friends threaten to murder each other. They meant it, I know these guys. If nothing else, video games are hyper-stimulating. They make you feel crazy, disoriented and balloon-headed. The idea that exposure to media violence _wouldn't _incite short-term aggression is utterly laughable. It's like trying to argue that exposure to a naked body won't incite desire.


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## ehbowen (Apr 12, 2021)

This (cultural appropriation) is an issue which I am going to be dealing with. In the (supernatural) trilogy I'm working on, I've plotted in a scene where, after a lapse of nearly two hundred years, the spiritual personage most directly responsible for influencing the American Revolution confronts one of the guardian spirits of the Native Americans. Not in a violent way, more a somewhat-cordial meeting of former enemies, but...

I'm planning to handle it in a similar way to what Louis L'Amour did in _Last Of the Breed_, when the Russian Colonel Zamatev attempted to turn Major Makatozi, a Sioux/Cheyenne Native American, against the United States by saying that "...you are one of those from whom your country was taken?" L'Amour has Makatozi calmly reply, "As we had taken it from others." What I'm planning is more along the lines of stewardship and what was done with the land; the plains where the buffalo once roamed now feed the world and the mines which exploited the resources built the arsenal of democracy which defeated totalitarianism in the 1940s.

I may not make anyone happy, except myself. Still, while I'm not seriously considering structural changes to the scene, if there are "tweaks" which could be made in deference to the sensitivities of either side, I'm willing to consider them. But as of right now I'm not really sure as to where to turn to get thoughtful criticism from the Native American perspective. I'll look more seriously when I get closer to pulling everything together, though.


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## Taylor (Apr 12, 2021)

ehbowen said:


> This (cultural appropriation) is an issue which I am going to be dealing with. In the (supernatural) trilogy I'm working on, I've plotted in a scene where, after a lapse of nearly two hundred years, the spiritual personage most directly responsible for influencing the American Revolution confronts one of the guardian spirits of the Native Americans. Not in a violent way, more a somewhat-cordial meeting of former enemies, but...
> 
> I'm planning to handle it in a similar way to what Louis L'Amour did in _Last Of the Breed_, when the Russian Colonel Zamatev attempted to turn Major Makatozi, a Sioux/Cheyenne Native American, against the United States by saying that "...you are one of those from whom your country was taken?" L'Amour has Makatozi calmly reply, "As we had taken it from others." What I'm planning is more along the lines of stewardship and what was done with the land; the plains where the buffalo once roamed now feed the world and the mines which exploited the resources built the arsenal of democracy which defeated totalitarianism in the 1940s.
> 
> I may not make anyone happy, except myself. Still, while I'm not seriously considering structural changes to the scene, if there are "tweaks" which could be made in deference to the sensitivities of either side, I'm willing to consider them. But as of right now I'm not really sure as to where to turn to get thoughtful criticism from the Native American perspective. I'll look more seriously when I get closer to pulling everything together, though.



I haven't read _Last of the Breed_, but I see it is written in 1987.  I would be careful to use it as a reference point for the recognition of cultural issues.  Attitudes and awareness have changed a lot since then.  I think it's one thing to incorporate native customs, but if you are speaking to stewardship or ownership of land, I would suggest incorporating a balanced viewpoint around the land treaties. 

It’s good that you will seek an aboriginal critique.  You might try finding a scholar at your local university.  Pretty much all of the universities in my local area have introduced faculties of First Nations and Indigenous studies.  I always find this topic incredibly fascinating.  How the European and Indigenous people collided with divergent views of the best utilization of land and its development.  And the older I get, the more I can sympathize with First Nations beliefs.


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## Taylor (Apr 12, 2021)

It's a legitimate issue, and important to consider as you are.

I struggle with a similar issue as well.  I am incorporating various cultural upbringings and expectations into my characters’ motivations.  My story takes place in New York City, which is a melting pot for various ethnicities. I spent a lot of time there and try to base my characters on people I met there, and other people I know from various cultures, but I do worry that I will be inauthentic or cliche.

But, we can’t write all our stories in a homogeneous vacuum, because that would be politically incorrect and boring.  We have to take the risk but do it thoughtfully and respectfully.


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## ehbowen (Apr 12, 2021)

At the risk of pushing someone's hot buttons, I'll say that at least in my own mind the critical issue is not the conquest and colonization of the continent; right of conquest has been recognized for all of human history. The critical issue to me is the unilateral breaking of treaties which we entered into and ratified, legally, which should have been scrupulously upheld by our government. That part of history truly is a blot on our society.


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## Taylor (Apr 12, 2021)

ehbowen said:


> At the risk of pushing someone's hot buttons, I'll say that at least in my own mind the critical issue is not the conquest and colonization of the continent; right of conquest has been recognized for all of human history. The critical issue to me is the unilateral breaking of treaties which we entered into and ratified, legally, which should have been scrupulously upheld by our government. That part of history truly is a blot on our society.



I agree!  I had originally expressed that in my post, but then deleted it for fear it would push the same buttons.   One has to wonder if there was a genuine intent to follow through at the time they were signed.  But what if anything can done now to reconcile?   No need to respond we may be wandering off the OP.


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## Theglasshouse (Apr 12, 2021)

As promised for anyone interested in reading a small history of the personal essay the book I bought a while ago is called: the art of the personal essay: an anthology from the classical era to present(selected and with an introduction by) Philip Lopate a teacher's and writer's collaborative book. It also covers memoirs, letters, newspaper column, diary/journal entry, lecture, diatribe, consolation, prose poem and reverie, reportage, valediction. It also has a bunch of essays on such topics such as ambition, disability, and classical essayists if you can't find them it is here (Montaigne among others). Ask away and maybe I can name an essay on a topic if it is here such as disability. If you find these kinds of resources easily it could be worth it to find it on the topic you are researching.

On race and ethnicity:
In praise of shadows by Junichiro Tanizaki
How I started to write by Carlos Fuentes
Meatless days by Sara Suleri
Alas, Poor Richard by James Baldwin (I found this one on a website but I won't link it here)
Notes of a native son by James Baldwin
Split at the Root by Adrienne Rich
Do he have your number, Mr. Jeffrey by Gayle Pemberton.

Maybe some are on the web.


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## ehbowen (Apr 12, 2021)

Taylor said:


> I agree!  I had originally expressed that in my post, but then deleted it for fear it would push the same buttons.   One has to wonder if there was a genuine intent to follow through at the time they were signed.  But what if anything can done now to reconcile?   No need to respond we may be wandering off the OP.



My take is that western society works when it is based upon the Rule of Law, and when that law is applied equally to all, small and great. You don't get a pass on drug or gun laws because your last name is Biden, you don't get a "wink-wink-nod-nod" on antitrust law because you happen to be a pharmaceutical or hospital executive, you don't get special treatment because you wear a badge and a blue suit...the obligation rests upon all, small and great. Otherwise you end up with cronyism, "pull" (from _Atlas Shrugged),_ and basically hell on earth.

The fundamental law of our land (yes, this is U.S. specific and many of you are under different systems) states that any treaty which is negotiated and signed by the President and then formally ratified by the U.S. Senate becomes the law of the land. Period. Full stop. If there is a provision in your law which you dislike then there are ways to change it, but just brushing it aside and ignoring it opens the doorway to hell. For a treaty this would mean renegotiating, but the negotiations would have to be mutual..."Sign this at gunpoint" is not a negotiation.

The one which really sticks in my craw is the Black Hills treaty. Maybe it's a pipe dream, but I like to think that perhaps the tribal councils might be willing  to accept non-Indian ownership of property inside legally chartered cities and towns, and possibly to grandfather individual ownership of rural property to settlers as long as it is passed down within a family and not resold. But I think that any corporately owned property within the treaty boundaries should immediately revert to Indian ownership, possibly with a 20 year lease to amortize and write off the value of existing improvements. But those are the sorts of things which can (and should) be negotiated. Give and take, both ways. I can't blame the Native Americans for being skeptical, but we can't even hope to reconcile the matter until those who run the United States government accept responsibility and admit wrongdoing.


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## VRanger (Apr 13, 2021)

I think we've talked more about how to regard various social issues and less about the crux of this question, and I think the crux of the question revolves around two thoughts.

This first is censorship. The basis of the OP is self-censorship, something an author might not consider if not concerned about being vilified, or at least sternly criticized, for the inclusion of certain material.

I find it appalling that after decades of work to protect free speech and curb censorship, we're reverting to the point where any author should be concerned about including any cultural or societal references in their work. It's not a pressure we should cave to. We should try to get it right, but if we make a mistake we learn from it.

The second thought is the self-correcting marketplace. If an author gets something grossly wrong, word gets out. The news will pop up in reviews, and if the bulk of reviews are critical for that reason, potential future readers become aware. If the work is hateful, the writer will circle a well-deserved drain. If not, they get more chances.

This is not a new phenomenon in the world of creative effort. On the mild side, Brits didn't much like Dick Van Dyke's portrayal in Mary Poppins. I've seen dozens of Brits try to sound American and get it just as wrong. Getting it wrong can be innocent and very forgivable.

Or, it can be egregious and insulting. That's why as writers, we should try to get it right. We use our worldly experience and research tools before we commit to publish. But we should never, NEVER skirt a subject because "we're not that". What we do is find out what "that" is all about, then we write about it.

As writers, our work often places ourselves in other people's shoes. _It's what we do_. The better we get at it, the better material we produce.

The essence of the question would be something like, "Should Harper Lee have never written To Kill a Mockingbird?" _Ludicrous on its face.
_
Never stretch? Then we'll never broaden our scope or improve.


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## EternalGreen (Apr 13, 2021)

The difference is that British people aren't oppressed and Asian people are.

I wouldn't be violating free speech unless I joined the government, kicked down your door, and dragged you to prison. Free speech is not an excuse to silence criticism. Categorizing people as ignorant and harmful is not a violation of free speech. Not even close. Not by a long shot. If you want people to enjoy, promote, or even condone your work, then "be concerned." 

The *entire point of art* is caring what other people feel. Sometimes, stepping on people's toes is _just mean_.


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## VRanger (Apr 13, 2021)

EternalGreen said:


> The difference is that British people aren't oppressed and Asian people are.
> 
> I wouldn't be violating free speech unless I joined the government, kicked down your door, and dragged you to prison. Free speech is not an excuse to silence criticism. Categorizing people as ignorant and harmful is not a violation of free speech. Not even close. Not by a long shot. If you want people to enjoy, promote, or even condone your work, then "be concerned."
> 
> The *entire point of art* is caring what other people feel. Sometimes, stepping on people's toes is _just mean_.



I think you missed the point. When speech is chilled before someone can even speak, that is an infringement of free speech. When speech is condemned not because of what is said, but because of who said it, that's an infringement of free speech, plus overt bigotry.

It doesn't have to be the government doing it. There's a supposition at play that some people aren't entitled to speak about some things. That's a slippery slope. Caving to it will eventually stifle ALL creative and editorial expression which doesn't comply with whoever is "on top". It's already in play. Blackballing and Cancel Culture are alive and well.

Plus, I'd dispute that "the entire point of art is caring what other people feel". It's one option, but very often the point of art is to *challenge *what other people feel. An important part of art can be to make people uncomfortable about what they feel. It can be vital to make the readers care about how *you *feel, regardless of how they feel. _Only _"caring what other people feel" provides no catalyst.


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## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord (Apr 14, 2021)

Here's a consideration, more about self-censorship in general: self-censorship out of fear of pushback is an entirely different thing than self-censorship out of discernment and care. I would argue that all writers, recognizing the value and power of their words, should practice discernment-based self-censorship. Saying anything just because you can, or writing solely based on what makes you feel good, is a bad artistic ethic. We should aim to write truth, beauty, and goodness. 

Various social and political movements hit society; all sorts of different conflicting ideas about what you can and can't write are thrown around. Trying to please everyone or fulfill all the current Good Person checkboxes is fruitless, but so is responding with a "you can't tell me what to do." I'm for self-censorship, but on the basis of what is right, not on the basis of what may offend. "It's your story" -- well, yes, but that's not an argument for saying whatever the heck you want; that's an argument for taking moral responsibility for _your _​words.


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## Theglasshouse (Apr 14, 2021)

It is not about what is morally right or wrong but that with research makes for a more complex and interesting character since you have sympathy for the mc or other character. You can please both crowds. The source I quoted is from a creative nonfiction program that is taught to students at Columbia university which is second in the USA on creative writing ( this is part of creative writing). That is the point that can be taken. Some essays are free to see I listed on the web or also are in the public domain. Incidents in the life of a slave girl for example ( racism or race) or by the titles of James Baldwin's essays I posted. Sympathy can be learned by reading about other people's lives. Read the feedback page on the life of the incidents of a life of a slave girl on amazon. Another point is that there are free resources of different types. He even has an essay saying it is wrong morally and explains how to do it. I own two books by him. Why look at a character as a individual who isn't respected and can be interpreted as a different person? Sympathy for different problems exist. Humans are poor mind readers. I could list disability nonfiction works. There is a point that he argues. If you know how to do it why do it?


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## Kyle R (Apr 14, 2021)

If you're writing from the POV of a different culture/ethnicity, then the best thing to do is research, research, research. Do your best to get it right.

That also means getting reader feedback from people who identify with the characters that you're portraying. They'd be able to tell you, better than anyone else, whether or not you're on the right path.

Otherwise, if your story allows, you can go a "softer" route, and have your characters be of a fictional or undefined origin. Think of James Cameron's "Na'vi" in Avatar, for example. In terms of the narrative, it's obvious that the Na'vi are meant to represent Indigenous people.

But Cameron dodged that specificity by making them an alien race, with their own made-up language. It's just one way to avoid the whole slippery slope of cultural appropriation. :encouragement:


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## Foxee (Apr 14, 2021)

Sometimes art and writing can be difficult work because I think the thing that resounds the most loudly is truth. However, in our world, the truth is often murky, hidden, denied, painted over, or warred over. That's probably not as new a problem as we'd like to think.

Is it important to produce a warm feeling of acceptance in the reader? I'd say that a major reason for the arts (and one reason that tyrannical governments rarely like artists and writers and journalists) is because we polish our lens, bring it in close, and get a look at the human condition. 

The human condition is sad, it's hilarious, it's cruel, it's beautiful, it's ugly, it's oppressive, it takes wing on freedom, it sets others free, it blinds, it heals, it...well, you get the picture.

I submit Francisco Goya's painting _The Third of May, 1808_ for consideration. This painting caught my attention in a big way in an art history course as did Saturn Devouring His Son, which is downright horrifying. Why on earth would an artist spend their time on such depressing subjects? Probably because someone needed to shine light on dark subjects.

If racism, sexism, or whatever is chapping your ass and burning your brain then don't sit around telling other artists how to handle it. Get into the actual work of producing something that shines light on what you think. That's MUCH harder than blowing smoke uselessly and telling others what they should do.

So stop complaining and get to work. If racism is the thing you're angry about, pour your anger into your work and let's see a piece of writing or art that blows the lid off.


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## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord (Apr 14, 2021)

Theglasshouse said:


> It is not about what is morally right or wrong but that with research makes for a more complex and interesting character since you have sympathy for the mc or other character.



In the OP's particular case, yes, I agree. I was thinking more about self-censorship in general. 



Kyle R said:


> Otherwise, if your story allows, you can go a "softer" route, and have your characters be of a fictional or undefined origin. Think of James Cameron's "Na'vi" in Avatar, for example. In terms of the narrative, it's obvious that the Na'vi are meant to represent Indigenous people.
> 
> But Cameron dodged that specificity by making them an alien race, with their own made-up language. It's just one way to avoid the whole slippery slope of cultural appropriation. :encouragement:



I think that's essentially what the OP is doing. He's not writing fictional Asia, but using Asian names as an aesthetic in a fictional society.


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## BornForBurning (Apr 14, 2021)

One question the evil postmodernist colleges have yet to tackle is that of whose cultural context we contextualize art within. Clearly, it is not necessarily the culture creating the art, as the interpreter is just as inalienably entangled in his context as the writer was in his. It is (theoretically) easy to argue that those in the past contextualized their work in the 'then', and that we contextualize their work in the 'now', but unfortunately, culture is not a monolith, and even in contemporary society, there are a plethora of divergent viewpoints and contexts. So for two humans to meet on a messageboard and argue over the meaning of, say, a Confederate statue, is essentially pointless. This is why the evil postmodernist colleges are actually not postmodern, and why standpoint theory and neo-marxism have become popular epistemologies. Standpoint theory will probably evolve into some kind of neo-fascism in the near future to solve the issue of problematic standpoints. There is of course the innate problem of texts losing all inherent meaning within this epistemology, thus implicitly excluding the value of texts. But regardless, the snake can be shown to devour its tail far earlier in the process.


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## ppsage (Apr 14, 2021)

I have a strong urge to call false dichotomy here. The scale from totally ignoring to completely obsessing isn't the same as the scale from bogus libtard issue to essential criterion. Different writing and different purpose will have different solutions but most I bet are in the gray areas. There will be additional difficulties for any artist trying to see-saw on any of the extremes. I've been listening to a bunch of pirated Heinlein audio-books on YouTube: ain't no writer wearing their morality on their sleeve like him, but there's still lots of times even he has to stop and justify. Or be censored by his editors on a few occasions.


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## Theglasshouse (Apr 14, 2021)

Here's a powerful quote that made me think about myself. It's a way to create a character's personalities (regardless of our position it helps to think if you agree to think about your own beliefs).



> Consider arguments against your prejudices.
> 
> There’s considerable character dimensionality to be derived from expressing your opinions, prejudices, half-baked ideas, etc. provided you are willing to analyze flaws in your own thinking and to consider arguments against your fixations and not to be too solemn about it.
> 
> ...



Using religious values I am describing myself in my own words. Religion may shape upbringing and make you create different opinions.

I think that is a very good quote of why it's more sympathetic and complex to analyze our beliefs and challenge them.


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## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord (Apr 14, 2021)

Theglasshouse said:


> There’s considerable character dimensionality to be derived from expressing your opinions, prejudices, half-baked ideas, etc. provided you are willing to analyze flaws in your own thinking and to consider arguments against your fixations and not to be too solemn about it.



That's a very interesting thought, and I think it's probably true. Sometimes I stick an extreme version of something I kinda-sorta-maybe think in a story, as a character's vehemently held belief, then watch to see if it stands. And, half-baked ideas about the world are great fodder for wild characters. 

I think fiction can be used both as an expression or enjoyment of truth, and means of discovering truth. This method may be a good example of using it to discover truth: pit some opinions against each other and see who's left standing. The problem with this approach is the way the ideas act out in the story-world is going to be colored by our worldview, so it may just end up solidifying our trust in what we already think, instead of showing us something new. But that doesn't mean it won't ever show us something new. In general, I'd say, fiction explores truth through imagination (while science and philosophy do so through reason). But reason still has a place in how we construct our fiction.


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## Theglasshouse (Apr 14, 2021)

ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord said:


> That's a very interesting thought, and I think it's probably true. Sometimes I stick an extreme version of something I kinda-sorta-maybe think in a story, as a character's vehemently held belief, then watch to see if it stands. And, half-baked ideas about the world are great fodder for wild characters.
> 
> I think fiction can be used both as an expression or enjoyment of truth, and means of discovering truth. This method may be a good example of using it to discover truth: pit some opinions against each other and see who's left standing. The problem with this approach is the way the ideas act out in the story-world is going to be colored by our worldview, so it may just end up solidifying our trust in what we already think, instead of showing us something new. But that doesn't mean it won't ever show us something new. In general, I'd say, fiction explores truth through imagination (while science and philosophy do so through reason). But reason still has a place in how we construct our fiction.


That's a very good interpretation on the quote.

Here's another one which means we must question our beliefs by being curious of our flaws imo by rethinking what these are based on our upbringing  (mentioned in the previous post) and past (my take on this one and that one). To me this is the past, present, and future of a character's evolution of the self or ourselves. It's worth writing about. The book talks at length about personal essays. Of course when it refers to flaws something that seems like a flaw can appear as a strength. Our quirks, foibles, and flaws are our beliefs about our past upbringing. I think it makes me think of why sometimes I ran into trouble. It was because of the upbringing and the beliefs that it brought. Whatever he means today I stick to respecting people. So much some past things that happened to me thought I should be ignorant because it would do no harm. I can describe myself as inviting people who didn't seem as bad people as first as the people I would try to forgive later on. That I would figuratively speaking "invite them to my own house." When in fact it caused some harm. Thinking back on the past I think how it affected me for the present and is now what I want to seek because of these thoughts. My other flaw is too much self-indulgence. So much I don't feel responsible. This makes sense to me in this way.



> The proper alternative to self-dislike is not being pleased with oneself- a smug complacency that comes across equally distasteful- bit being curious about oneself. Such self curiosity.



So to dislike we should not be pleased with who we are. Disliking is the same as thinking up of our flaws. Judging by previous quotes. It's a way to seeing oneself when one thinks they are too perfect. Everyone who knows themselves has to dislike something. This probably refers to being half-decent humans.


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## Tomkat (Apr 14, 2021)

I'd say... those characters in your book from where they get their names? 
I mean, within their world, the fantasy realm you've created, where that name come from?

Albius Hak is fine. Albius, maybe is a Latin-sound-like name. So people in your world get Latin-sound-like names? Or perhaps all those from a specific area/culture of your map?

Although right now is more "international" (except asia, I guess) see it like this: if you were born in Italy, there are 80% chances that you had now an Italian name. If you were born in Japan... etc
Same goes for fictional worlds. You give a culture to your realm and natives from that realm are all subjected to that specific cultural heritage. If this realm has a Latin-sound-like naming system, that must be true and coherent with everyone. With exceptions, that's obvious, foreigners, immigrants etc. Someone who wanted to give his son a peculiar meaningful name.

Of course, you don't have to tell the reader about this. You're going to show it through the naming itself.  

Hey, look at Tolkien. Hobbits have hobbit names, dwarves have theirs, elves, humans.. each ethnicity within his world has his own culture and, consequently, naming system.


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## indianroads (Apr 14, 2021)

Foxee said:


> Sometimes art and writing can be difficult work because I think the thing that resounds the most loudly is truth. However, in our world, the truth is often murky, hidden, denied, painted over, or warred over. That's probably not as new a problem as we'd like to think.
> 
> Is it important to produce a warm feeling of acceptance in the reader? I'd say that a major reason for the arts (and one reason that tyrannical governments rarely like artists and writers and journalists) is because we polish our lens, bring it in close, and get a look at the human condition.
> 
> ...



very well said.


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