# Do I need permissions to cite other people's work in my book?



## charley5 (Apr 11, 2019)

Hi Everyone:

I have just written a New Age book with 95,000 words. I am a little  confused with regard to whether I need permission or not to cite other  people's work. Someone who reviewed my proposal suggested that I would  need to get permissions from all of the authors whom I cite. I have 175  discrete external references in my book. They are appropriately  referenced, whether paraphrased, or when appropriate quotations are  applied. I have a more scholarly approach so I know how to cite people.  It would be daunting to get permission from every reference... in fact,  well nigh impossible. 

Please let me know what the conventions or legalities are in such an  instance. 175 permissions make no sense to me, but maybe I am wrong. She  claims that because I am seeking to make money from the book, that is,  because it is a commercial venture (not scholarly) I must get  permissions unless the citations are from the public domain.

Thanks,

-Charles


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## velo (Apr 11, 2019)

I've never heard this particular view.  Citing a source generally protects you from plagiarism or copyright infringement unless you use so many direct quotes it forms a substantial portion of the book content.  I am writing a book and cite many scientific and non-scientific sources.  I cite each one and only use direct quotes (formatted as such) sparingly.  I am absolutely hoping to make at least a little money from my book...ugh, that means I actually have to write it....

I think this person that reviewed your book needs to cite her source.  As always, get a second opinion from someone who should know, i.e. a publisher.  I'm not a publisher so take opinion for what it's worth but I think your reviewer is full of hot air on this one.


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## moderan (Apr 11, 2019)

The reviewer's fulla beans. Citation is plenty. I'm a journalist -- I cite people in my column every single day. Quotation marks, attribution, and you're good.


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## charley5 (Apr 11, 2019)

Thanks both. I appreciate your responses. That's what I figured. It is part of the normal dissemination of information and knowledge. I am not sure where she got her information. All I know is that i am relieved!

-Charles


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## Aquilo (Apr 14, 2019)

When it comes to copyright, I'd recommend getting advice from an IP lawyer.  It costs, but getting it wrong can cost so much more.


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## charley5 (Apr 14, 2019)

That seems like sound advice. Posters in another site said the same thing. What I don't understand is, are there not specific rules which everyone must follow? If there are, why are they not clearly delineated somewhere? Would not a publisher know exactly what rules a book must follow?


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## moderan (Apr 14, 2019)

charley5 said:


> That seems like sound advice. Posters in another site said the same thing. What I don't understand is, are there not specific rules which everyone must follow? If there are, why are they not clearly delineated somewhere? Would not a publisher know exactly what rules a book must follow?



There's very little need to consult an intellectual property lawyer. The rules are clear and easily understood as far as citations. Quotations, attribution, correct fidelity. If the publisher wants to consult an IP lawyer, let them foot the bill.
I quote people every damn day of my life.
I'm also an editor and publisher and it's seriously a non-issue if you follow the rules --  which are easily available to a casual googling. Here's a good document to read:

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~rlo/482/plagiarism.pdf


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## luckyscars (Apr 15, 2019)

charley5 said:


> Hi Everyone:
> 
> I have just written a New Age book with 95,000 words. I am a little  confused with regard to whether I need permission or not to cite other  people's work. Someone who reviewed my proposal suggested that I would  need to get permissions from all of the authors whom I cite. I have 175  discrete external references in my book. They are appropriately  referenced, whether paraphrased, or when appropriate quotations are  applied. I have a more scholarly approach so I know how to cite people.  It would be daunting to get permission from every reference... in fact,  well nigh impossible.
> 
> ...



You don't need to get permission from all of the authors whom you cite so long as you are citing them correctly. You can't copyright facts.

Not a lawyer nor a non-fiction publisher, but I've written academic papers.

Let's go with some common sense on this: It would be *impossible* for any non-fiction book to be produced without citing outside sources. That's how credibility works - through citation. Non-fiction books that lack any reference to outside data are usually garbage.

Generally speaking so long as you are (1) Quoting the source's words and data faithfully and accurately (2) Attributing it accurately (the Vancouver system is probably better if there are a lot of sources to cite - otherwise you can use parentheses) and (3) Using it responsibility (not using a Harvard medical school study to push an anti-vax agenda, for instance) you don't have to worry*.

An area you may run into trouble is if you are referencing creative work - i.e something that goes beyond _facts. _For example, if you decide to quote song lyrics as part of an argument in favor of, I don't know, the Illuminati building the pyramids. 

In that situation you are using somebody else's work in a non-academic context (even if it's an 'academic' book) and that could be a problem. But I assume you are strictly using science (or pseudo-science, at least!) and in such a case it is impossible to have copyright because, again, you can't copyright a fact. The author of a study that determines cigarettes cause cancer cannot copyright their findings (that cigarettes cause cancer) because that's a perennial truth.


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## ellisael (Apr 15, 2019)

charley5 said:


> Hi Everyone:
> 
> 
> Please let me know what the conventions or legalities are in such an  instance. 175 permissions make no sense to me, but maybe I am wrong. She  claims that because I am seeking to make money from the book, that is,  because it is a commercial venture (not scholarly) I must get  permissions unless the citations are from the public domain.
> ...



Thank you for asking this question. I learnt something important. I had similar doubts too.


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## charley5 (Apr 15, 2019)

*Moderan*, thank you extremely much for that citation. It proved to be very helpful. But it raises a couple of questions for me:
(1) The reference says that simply rearranging words is plagiarism, even if you reference them. But there is a fine line between paraphrasing and re-arranging. How far do you have to paraphrase them (and reference them) for it not to be considered as plagiarism?
(2) What if two people have the same idea and there is only a limited number of words one can use to express it. Is there a risk of being accused of plagiarism?

*Luckyscars*, your post was very useful! Yes of course, citation adds to credibility. For instance in the metaphysical / New Age field, I wanted my references to show that I was not the only one who had reached certain conclusions. Interesting what you say about not being able to copyright facts. The implication is that because I am indulging in a commercial venture (as opposed to a scholarly one) I have a different obligation and should seek permission. I don't believe that's the case. In fact, it makes no sense to me, because proper citation should be applied no matter the circumstances, and standards of what constitutes plagiarism should not vary depending on the motivations of the author. The people who tell me to go speak to an IP lawyer are likely doing it to protect this site or themselves, and I respect that. But I consider it overkill.


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## moderan (Apr 15, 2019)

You do not paraphrase at all. You quote verbatim. Also, quoting song lyrics is definitely an IP issue.


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## charley5 (Apr 15, 2019)

Really? You cannot paraphrase and then cite? You can only quote someone? I have seen many instances of people paraphrasing and then citing. Are you saying that this is plagiarism?

I have no need for quoting song lyrics, although I do mention the song title "Good Vibrations" on a number of occasions, but I don't think that's a problem.


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## moderan (Apr 15, 2019)

You'll have to provide an example of what you mean -- I am unclear on what you're trying to get across. My point is that you don't quote anything that isn't verbatim. You can truncate a phrase, represented by ellipses, but anything else is misrepresentation.


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## Bardling (Apr 15, 2019)

I will point out that in the Fanfiction community, it is considered good manners to get permission before using another authors work whether you cite them or not.  That may (possibly) be where your reviewer is coming from.  I also think that fiction writers need to get permission before quoting another's work in some instances.
Nonfiction is another beast entirely, of course, and properly citing sources in enough in all circumstances I am aware of.


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## charley5 (Apr 15, 2019)

Moderan, of course, anything you put in quotation marks must be verbatim, otherwise you are misrepresenting another author's work. But let's say that you mention: Linda May, a noted Fung Shui expert, suggests that the ch'i moves faster through flat areas, such as plains, and therefore does not have a chance to settle.[SUP]1[/SUP] Now, if this is approximately what she said in her book and you are paraphrasing it, does this constitute plagiarism? I am not sure how else to ask it.


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## moderan (Apr 15, 2019)

No, it isn't plagiarism, and as long as the first party isn't quoted or misrepresented, it's hard to see where there's a problem, other than the premise that ch'i is obstructed by material objects, which is questionable at best. Heh. But that isn't what you were asking about, so sure. Put the actual quote in a footnote to cover ya.


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## Aquilo (Apr 16, 2019)

moderan said:


> There's very little need to consult an intellectual property lawyer. The rules are clear and easily understood as far as citations. Quotations, attribution, correct fidelity. If the publisher wants to consult an IP lawyer, let them foot the bill.
> I quote people every damn day of my life.
> I'm also an editor and publisher and it's seriously a non-issue if you follow the rules -- which are easily available to a casual googling. Here's a good document to read:
> 
> http://www.u.arizona.edu/~rlo/482/plagiarism.pdf



I disagree. The laws on copyright are just too diverse, and what might be okay to use in one country won't be in another. You really are better off seeking advice from a lawyer.


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## charley5 (Apr 16, 2019)

Aquilo, I am sure you are right. But I am more concerned with the United States or Great Britain, the only two countries where I will contact publishers. 

You and moderan have spurred me to review all of my citations and quotations carefully, to eliminate ambiguity of attribution and misrepresentation. I thank you for that.


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## moderan (Apr 16, 2019)

Aquilo said:


> I disagree. The laws on copyright are just too diverse, and what might be okay to use in one country won't be in another. You really are better off seeking advice from a lawyer.


Reading comp 101:
"If the publisher wants to consult an IP lawyer, let them foot the bill."


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## Mikeyboy_esq (Apr 16, 2019)

Just to be clear, it's important to note the difference between plagiarism and copyright infringement.  If you quote language from someone else's copyrighted work (e.g., a book or article) without their permission and give them credit for the quote, then you are not committing plagiarism. However, it is still possible that you have infringed on that person's copyright.  

Whether you infringed on someone's copyright or not depends on the facts.  To avoid copyright infringement, some traditional publishers take the view that if you quote 300 words or less from a third party's copyrighted work (without their permission), then you don't need their permission.  I've heard others say quoting 50 words or less, or one paragraph or less. The truth is there is no standard length.  Obviously, the longer the quote, the more riskier it is. Generally, a book title is too short to be subject to copyright protection (however, a title can sometimes be protected under trademark protection).  Even if you quote a long passage (several pages), you can avoid infringing on someone's copyright if you satisfy the Fair Use Doctrine (e.g., if you use the quote for non-profit education purposes) or if the quote comes from a work that is in the public domain.   Here's a great article on this topic from Jane Friedman... https://www.janefriedman.com/permissions-and-fair-use/


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## charley5 (Apr 16, 2019)

This link is great Mikey. It led me to the following which cleared up a lot:

http://www.mbbp.com/news/writers-guide-to-fair-use

Thanks!




Mikeyboy_esq said:


> Just to be clear, it's important to note the difference between plagiarism and copyright infringement.  If you quote language from someone else's copyrighted work (e.g., a book or article) without their permission and give them credit for the quote, then you are not committing plagiarism. However, it is still possible that you have infringed on that person's copyright.
> 
> Whether you infringed on someone's copyright or not depends on the facts.  To avoid copyright infringement, some traditional publishers take the view that if you quote 300 words or less from a third party's copyrighted work (without their permission), then you don't need their permission.  I've heard others say quoting 50 words or less, or one paragraph or less. The truth is there is no standard length.  Obviously, the longer the quote, the more riskier it is. Generally, a book title is too short to be subject to copyright protection (however, a title can sometimes be protected under trademark protection).  Even if you quote a long passage (several pages), you can avoid infringing on someone's copyright if you satisfy the Fair Use Doctrine (e.g., if you use the quote for non-profit education purposes) or if the quote comes from a work that is in the public domain.   Here's a great article on this topic from Jane Friedman... https://www.janefriedman.com/permissions-and-fair-use/


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## Bard_Daniel (Apr 20, 2019)

Mikeyboy_esq said:


> Just to be clear, it's important to note the difference between plagiarism and copyright infringement.  If you quote language from someone else's copyrighted work (e.g., a book or article) without their permission and give them credit for the quote, then you are not committing plagiarism. However, it is still possible that you have infringed on that person's copyright.
> 
> Whether you infringed on someone's copyright or not depends on the facts.  To avoid copyright infringement, some traditional publishers take the view that if you quote 300 words or less from a third party's copyrighted work (without their permission), then you don't need their permission.  I've heard others say quoting 50 words or less, or one paragraph or less. The truth is there is no standard length.  Obviously, the longer the quote, the more riskier it is. Generally, a book title is too short to be subject to copyright protection (however, a title can sometimes be protected under trademark protection).  Even if you quote a long passage (several pages), you can avoid infringing on someone's copyright if you satisfy the Fair Use Doctrine (e.g., if you use the quote for non-profit education purposes) or if the quote comes from a work that is in the public domain.   Here's a great article on this topic from Jane Friedman... https://www.janefriedman.com/permissions-and-fair-use/



Wow, that's a very clear and concise explanation. Nice!


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## charley5 (Apr 20, 2019)

Yes, I would also like to thank Mikey again for that important information, particularly the distinction between plagiarism and copyright infringement.

-Charles


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## Mikeyboy_esq (Apr 22, 2019)

Bard & Charles,
You are most welcome!  FWIW, I teach business law at a local college (including a chapter on copyrights and other intellectual property).  So I've had a little practice at explaining this stuff. Glad it helped.


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