# What kind of scenes do you find hardest to write?



## Ralph Rotten (Oct 3, 2018)

So there are lots of types of scenes; romantic, comedic, heroic, guy-fuks-a-pie, melodramatic,.

So the question is; as a writer what kind of scenes do you loathe writing, and never do or may never even have tried.
What kind of scenes do you avoid like the plague?


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## ironpony (Oct 3, 2018)

I find action/fight scenes the hardest to write probably.  This probably cause I feel like's all been there, seen that, and it's hard to come up with new material, without it feeling like filler a lot I find.


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## bdcharles (Oct 3, 2018)

I struggle with filler scenes, where the pieces of a plot are being moved into position. I just find them boring. I tend to rely quite heavily on dialogue at those times.


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## ironpony (Oct 3, 2018)

Wouldn't those be plot driven scenes though, if pieces of plot are being moved into position, and not filler therefore?


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## Guard Dog (Oct 3, 2018)

I don't mind writing any of 'em, but I have to be much more careful when it involves a fight.

I tend to over-describe, I'm told, so I have to reign in the tendency to give a play-by-play.

You wanna know how to perform a wrist lock/elbow lock and a take-down? I can diagram it out for ya so any idiot can follow it.

...but apparently that's just too much detail for a fight or brawl, and I have to work to find that "happy middle".



G.D.


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## Sir-KP (Oct 3, 2018)

I would say violent scenes. The pace and the choice of words got to be sharp to support the scene. Otherwise readers may feel different pace or intensity as what I imagine it to be.

I'm not avoiding though.


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## SueC (Oct 4, 2018)

Okay. I'll say it. Sex scenes. Well, I WANT to write sex scenes, and have even tried it a time or two, but am so uncomfortable even editing them that I stopped writing them all together. There are a couple in a book I wrote, and I gave it to my daughter as a reader, and she said she just pretended that I didn't write the words of the sex scenes, in order to continue reading the book. I had actually forgot about them when I gave the book to her, which says a lot about how I feel about sex scenes. So now, when sex is involved in a story line, I do what movies used to do in the 60's - just fade. You know, the couple kisses, and then we are suddenly looking at the sky, but we KNOW what's going on down there on the ground! LOL. Don't get me wrong, I _could _write a really steamy sex scene, but then I'd have to burn it! Ha!

Good question, Ralph


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## bdcharles (Oct 4, 2018)

ironpony said:


> Wouldn't those be plot driven scenes though, if pieces of plot are being moved into position, and not filler therefore?



They are, but they are not really "genre" scenes - action scenes, sex scenes, and so on. I suppose this is kind of the crux of writing; find/invent the drama in the scene otherwise cut it. That's where I struggle - coming up with new and relevant reasons for my characters to stress. They've been through it all - breakups, breakdowns, betrayals, murder, sabotage, even the kidnapping of a Duchess - so they're kind of inured to most things. Given time I can usually rely on inspiration to come up with something new but if I am "just writing", and hoping to come up with something there and then, they'll likely fall out over the trivialest crap.


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## moderan (Oct 4, 2018)

> I struggle with filler scenes, where the pieces of a plot are being moved into position. I just find them boring. I tend to rely quite heavily on dialogue at those times.



Same. I flag when there's not much happening and the characters are just living their lives. I try to compensate by airing their quirks during such interludes, or by moving things around in the background so the focus is off center stage, as it were. If I can't keep myself interested, I feel that the reader won't have much interest, either.


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## Ralph Rotten (Oct 4, 2018)

I hate writing beginnings.
I keep going over and over it, then finally just write thru it, figuring I'll think of something.
Then later when I *do *think of something, I usually delete every bit of the crap that I had labored over for hours.
So basically I completely wasted my time trying to write that great beginning.


I also hate writing stuff that I have not already acted thru the day before.
If I have acted out the scene a few times, from different perspectives, then the story flows.
But if I did not do my homework then I spin my wheels and write a lotta crap that gets deleted later.
_Odd; People look at me strange when I'm working on the next day's writing._


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## Guard Dog (Oct 4, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> _Odd; People look at me strange when I'm working on the next day's writing._



I have often wondered what people would say if they knew exactly what I was thinking of at those times I appear to be "zoning out".

"What do you mean you were considering what somebody would think or do when they found out the person they just had sex with was... an android???"

Or...

"You're trying to figure out how to make that person who, 500 years ago?"

Yeah, I spend a lot of time working stories out in my head... Always have.

And then there's the "Where is this reference/fact going to pop back up and be important, exactly?"

There's almost nothing so small in the early chapters of my stuff that it doesn't put in an appearance again several chapters later, in some form or the other. Like looking at a piece of paper like it's an alien... You'd better believe there's a real alien coming, sooner or later. :icon_cheesygrin:



G.D.


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## Theglasshouse (Oct 5, 2018)

Guard Dog said:


> I have often wondered what people would say if they knew exactly what I was thinking of at those times I appear to be "zoning out".
> 
> "What do you mean you were considering what somebody would think or do when they found out the person they just had sex with was... an android???"
> 
> ...


When we are in the zone we are probably in the Twightlight zone, sorry I couldn't resist. I relate all pacing in stories with needing drama, and this is where you must be as attention getting as possible so fully agreed with the previous posts. Characterization of a beginning character who has a flaw at the beginning and needs to change can be tricky as well.


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## kunox (Oct 5, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> So there are lots of types of scenes; romantic, comedic, heroic, guy-fuks-a-pie, melodramatic,.
> 
> So the question is; as a writer what kind of scenes do you loathe writing, and never do or may never even have tried.
> What kind of scenes do you avoid like the plague?




not that I loathe them or avoid them but the closest thing I can come up with is "next day scenes".. those scenes are worse than blank pages to me because a least with blank pages I can try tings a little randomly.


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## Theglasshouse (Oct 5, 2018)

Also going to add that something must happen in each scene it can't be just empty dialogue which can be challenging.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 5, 2018)

Theglasshouse said:


> Also going to add that something must happen in each scene it can't be just empty dialogue which can be challenging.



I figure if the dialog is teaching the reader something about the characters, it's not wasted or empty. And also that it'll make their actions make more sense later on, maybe.

But that's just me. I don't require the world comin' to an end, either physically or emotionally, every scene.


G.D.


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## Theglasshouse (Oct 5, 2018)

Just my point of view but I try to include events for short scenes or small characters. To try to give some momentum to the story or pacing. Introducing a catalyst character at the right time can be interesting, or a conflict. I don't like dialogue heavy scenes if I can try my best to avoid it. It is just a personal preference of mine.


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## ironpony (Oct 10, 2018)

bdcharles said:


> They are, but they are not really "genre" scenes - action scenes, sex scenes, and so on. I suppose this is kind of the crux of writing; find/invent the drama in the scene otherwise cut it. That's where I struggle - coming up with new and relevant reasons for my characters to stress. They've been through it all - breakups, breakdowns, betrayals, murder, sabotage, even the kidnapping of a Duchess - so they're kind of inured to most things. Given time I can usually rely on inspiration to come up with something new but if I am "just writing", and hoping to come up with something there and then, they'll likely fall out over the trivialest crap.



Oh okay.  Do you usually come up with your characters first, or your premise with some of the plot first, and try to base the characters around that... or is it a little of both?


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## bdcharles (Oct 10, 2018)

bdcharles said:


> They are, but they are not really "genre" scenes - action scenes, sex scenes, and so on. I suppose this is kind of the crux of writing; find/invent the drama in the scene otherwise cut it. That's where I struggle - coming up with new and relevant reasons for my characters to stress. They've been through it all - breakups, breakdowns, betrayals, murder, sabotage, even the kidnapping of a Duchess - so they're kind of inured to most things. Given time I can usually rely on inspiration to come up with something new but if I am "just writing", and hoping to come up with something there and then, they'll likely fall out over the trivialest crap.





ironpony said:


> Oh okay.  Do you usually come up with your characters first, or your premise with some of the plot first, and try to base the characters around that... or is it a little of both?



Left to its own devices, the bulk of my novel-writing is characters-first. People pop into my head, usually while I'm doing something unrelated like DIY. Often they start with a name. A name says alot I think. I like names that have a kind of echo in language, like Mervyn Peake does in _Gormenghast_ with names like Steerpike and Prunesquallor. I have a new character I am dealing with called Punk Douche. I love than name! Punk Douche! It does to a degree limit my writing to somewhat westernised settings, but not always; English is sufficiently fluid that I can go off-brand a bit.

Alongside that I do keep a log of simple ideas knocking about (usually on my phone's Notes app). These, I feel, lend themselves to short stories or set pieces within the main novel. Prompts often do a good job of kicking off ideas too. But more often it is a line. In my Notes, I wrote this, the other day: "Through the lanes' skeletal treachery". And I mean I have GOT to use that. So I will have some scene where the characters end up (as I am writing this reply to you, I have got one just now for my current scene, chars and that line) where I can use it.


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## Theglasshouse (Oct 10, 2018)

Inner conflict is difficult to write. A character-centered story needs it. I am not qualified to say this is the way they write. I just read that Hamlet was a contradictory character because of his inner conflict and nature of being himself. It's something that could originate from the theme. Because if you notice hamlet is both decisive and indecisive. The play was famous because of Hamlet's indecision, that is the conflict he has with himself supposedly.


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## DarkGhost (Oct 15, 2018)

Beginnings are one of the chief things I hate. Partially because I love doing action and there really isn't a lot of action in most of the beginnings. However I find that I push to much into my first chapter in order to keep going, that makes things very hard to track. Writing down a solid plot is what is hardest for me though.


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## Ralph Rotten (Oct 15, 2018)

DarkGhost said:


> Beginnings are one of the chief things I hate. Partially because I love doing action and there really isn't a lot of action in most of the beginnings. However I find that I push to much into my first chapter in order to keep going, that makes things very hard to track. Writing down a solid plot is what is hardest for me though.




That's actually a factor that ruins many a great story.
What happens is the writer wants to tell the story or get to the action, so they wind up rushing to tell the story, usually at the expense of the characters.
It took me a few years to learn to ignore this urge.  
You wanna tell the story, get to the action, but you have to resist the urge.
It's like the story about the young bull & the old bull.


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## Theglasshouse (Oct 16, 2018)

I am currently researching how different writers approach these sort of writing scenarios or writer's problems (to develop a plot). When someone doesn't know how to write action. One suggestion I did read, is to observe from real life actions you and your family have done to solve problems or conflicts, that show dramatic potential for your story's plot. Write these down as they can serve the story's plot. Maybe even journal them everyday. As of this writing I still need to order those books. I am ordering books by college professors or people who went to some good creative writing schools. It will take a long time to get here to my house but I am patient and believe you can learn from books.

Also there is no shame in stealing a plot and using a what if question, to make it your own idea to start a story out of nowhere. Every plot has been written. My mother watches a lot of soap operas. I watch sometimes with her the show, and found an intriguing plot I could use by changing it with a what if question. Use existing plots to create your beginnings for a story.


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## kaminoshiyo (Oct 16, 2018)

Scenes that don't involve action which leads to more interaction between characters. The hardest thing for me to write is dialogue and casual, believable interactions between people.


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## Ralph Rotten (Oct 17, 2018)

kaminoshiyo said:


> Scenes that don't involve action which leads to more interaction between characters. The hardest thing for me to write is dialogue and casual, believable interactions between people.





...and that's why I like to talk thru my scenes the day before I write them.


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## JJBuchholz (Oct 18, 2018)

Action/fight scenes. There needs to be a balance between giving the scene enough detail, but leaving just enough out to keep the reader able to fill in the blanks while the action is going on and the characters involved are sharing the interaction and adding to their own story.

-JJB


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## Guard Dog (Oct 18, 2018)

JJBuchholz said:


> Action/fight scenes. There needs to be a balance between giving the scene enough detail, but leaving just enough out to keep the reader able to fill in the blanks while the action is going on and the characters involved are sharing the interaction and adding to their own story.
> 
> -JJB



Yeah, fights are a big pain in the ass... especially if you have my tendency to "over-detail" them, and have them ending up sounding like a "how to" book.



G.D.


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## JJBuchholz (Oct 19, 2018)

Guard Dog said:


> Yeah, fights are a big pain in the ass... especially if you have my tendency to "over-detail" them, and have them ending up sounding like a "how to" book.
> 
> 
> 
> G.D.



Exactly! I've gone back and read a heavily detailed fight scene I had just written, only to scrap most of it to scale it back and omit some of the extra details.

Over-active imagination I suppose. LOL.

-JJB


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## Ralph Rotten (Oct 19, 2018)

I had a scene recently that went on for like 40 pages.
Plane lands at airport, flees from army of convicts, long drive, many bad guys, 7 active characters, extensive technical details of damage to the plane...

Even crazier: the whole scene was a week in the making. 3 days just to map the path the broken plane takes (using google earth).  I also had to research the local resources, find out where their warehouses were, manufacturing, junk yards, hospitals, length of runway, what type of fence does that airport use, is there a grade at the end of the runway, would a B200 fit between the highway pylons...

After that, I drove the path in the simulator.

I'm lucky my searches didn't trigger DHS. I google some klazy stuff.:stupid:


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## Olly Buckle (Oct 19, 2018)

moderan said:


> Same. I flag when there's not much happening and the characters are just living their lives. I try to compensate by airing their quirks during such interludes, or by moving things around in the background so the focus is off center stage, as it were. If I can't keep myself interested, I feel that the reader won't have much interest, either.



That says it for me; if you find it hard to write others are all going to find it hard to read. That is the point where most readers stop bothering and go and find something else to read that grabs their interest, so what is the point of writing stuff that you don't want to write? Stick to writing something you feel some enthusiasm for, and if you can't summon that up change the story or write something else


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## Guard Dog (Oct 19, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> I'm lucky my searches didn't trigger DHS. I google some klazy stuff.:stupid:



I had the same worry when I googled aerial photos of the White House, to see if I could land a 300 x 200 ft. starship on the front lawn.

Turns out it'll fit, but a few of the trees are gonna be a mess when it leaves. :shock:




G.D.


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## Ralph Rotten (Oct 20, 2018)

*Since we are discussing how to put together a solid plot, lemme show you some of the stuff I am working on right now for a new book.*

Here's the deal; I'm taking 1 character from a series I just finished and launching a new line of books called *American Road Warrior.* 
My hero is going to travel post-apocalyptic America like Kung Fu, _fixing _local problems.
His first destination is Yellowstone, with stops in the middle.

So I can rack my brain trying to come up with ideas for stuff he encounters during his trip, or I can get a more accurate picture by researching the trip.
By studying the ground, I can have a lot of my plot revealed to me just by the terrain/resources/region.

Here is the kind of stuff that I factor into a story:







So basic analysis tells me that Alex would not fly directly to Yellowstone.
See, research just cleared up about 100 questions I had before.

So then, if he is unlikely to fly straight there he will be stopping along the way.
Which way would he go?
Are there resources along the way, things that he would wanna visit, things he may wanna smoke...







So this is one technique that I use to form a solid plot: *Pure logic and research.*
I study the ground, compare it to the scenario in progress, make some calculations, then put myself in my character's shoes and try to see how they would see all this.
It's surprising how much of your plot will reveal itself to you when you do it this way.
Not only that, but it keeps your story more accurate.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 20, 2018)

Again, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who has a computer-load of maps, photos, bookmarks, etc.

I have no idea how many hours I've spent doin' research, but I'll guarantee you that if I were paid even five bucks an hour for doin' it, I'd be quite wealthy right now.

Some of my more silly endeavors involved determining if I could fit this...

into this, without totally wrecking anything:

( No, the two things are not to the same scale. The ship is only 300 feet long or so. )

And I lost count of how long I searched contour maps for the perfect valley out in western Nevada, where I could hide the above ship, set up camp, and not be noticed or easily approached. :disillusionment:


G.D.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 21, 2018)

Oh, and Ralph... On one of your maps Nevada has a big fat "Why go to Nevada?" plastered on it.

My answer is... Because you might find a rather large-ish star ship and and a group of really fun people hanging out in a little valley in the north west corner there, plotting and planing to do very unpleasant things to incredibly deserving people. 

...and lots of booze too. :devilish: :drunk:

Just don't try to fly over in a military aircraft... It'd be bad for ya. :razz:

One other thing... using alcohol in the gasoline will shorten the range of your Cessna. It does the same for other vehicles, which I'm sure is the bigger part of the reason it's added to what you get at the pump; you have to buy more, whether you want to or not, to go the same distance.



G.D.


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## Olly Buckle (Oct 21, 2018)

That seems like an awful lot of work finding out about 'things'. My stories mainly revolve around people and their relations with each other, what happens to the boy who is raised in a family of three generations of South London rouges? How about the boy who falls in love with a girl from a rich family, but has nothing, so joins the local Mafia to become something? There is the unemployed and lonely man who finds he can get free meals in the staff canteen at the university and becomes interested and involved in the academic world as he pretends to be part of it.
As far as South Londoners go I have a reasonable idea of how things are, I lived there for years, but I never went to university and know damn all about the Mafia really, so I stay vague, I never identify the university, just that it is new, that's how he gets accepted, everybody is new to each other, and I never actually mention the Mafia by name, or even Italy, just that it is a place by the sea with nice weather and tourists. Mostly these things really don't matter, because the readers are not worried about the mechanics of things, so long as they are reasonably believable, to my mind it is the relationships between people that occupy them For the rest of it I apply the principle 'Less is more', if I want to describe a beautiful, fragile, antique vase that is how I describe it, I don't bother going and looking at them in museums, or even on line. Chances are my readers know no more about them than I do, but they will make up their own image in their head, and it will be a lot more real to them than a detailed one I give them, even if that is more accurate in the ontological world.
I think this stuff about if a ship will fit on the White House lawn may help the writer visualise what he is doing, but as far as the reader goes if you tell him it fits, it fits; and he won't bother looking up how big the lawn is and what is on it that might get damaged. What is important to people is people, how they relate to each other, what drives them, what is it inside that allows them to cope with situations, or not, why the bad guys are bad and the good guys good are good, the rest of it is just the mechanics that lets you put them into a situation, so my 'What if's...' are things like 'What if a single man with a couple of kids can't cope anymore and joins a community he doesn't really fit into?', 'What if a malleable and pleasant man finds himself married to a woman who has gradually turned into a dominating, nagging person without really realising it'. My advice is put people first, and the essential research is right there in your every day life. Take the characters out of it and put them in exotic or fantasy surroundings by all means, but it is their doubts, their fears and their certainties that are the really fascinating parts, and if you are not sure about some physical aspect of their world, stay vague, the reader will fill it in for themselves in a way that fits perfectly for them.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 21, 2018)

Olly, I very much put people/characters first... But I also insist on their "reality" being as fleshed-out and detailed as they are.

It's like the difference between a goldfish in a bowl, with only colored gravel on the bottom, and the same fish in a large, fully-landscaped aquarium.

Which one would you rather look at? Which one will offer the fish something to do other than just sit there with it's mouth opening and closing?

That's the main point in me doing the research I do; to give the characters as much reality to operate in as I possibly can.

Even if that reality is a work of fiction.

Besides, don't you find it interesting to imagine what Donald Trump would do or say, if a 300 foot-long starship suddenly landed on the White House lawn, crunching and cracking trees as it came down?

Or for that matter, the reactions and thoughts of the people IN that ship?

Sorry, but for me, all the work that goes into what I'm doing is like the CGI in a movie; The better it is, the less it's noticed. The worse it is, the more it stands out, and ruins the story for some people.

And if it's bad enough, nobody will bother with the movie in the first place, past a very few.

Besides, I like doin' it, and for me, that's pretty much all that matters.

Also, it's been a strange sort of hobby of mine for a very long time anyway.

So... might as well make use of it, no?



G.D.

P.S. I learned a long time ago not to count on the intelligence or imagination of the average person for much of anything. So I leave 'em as little opportunity as possible to find a way to misunderstand anything I'm trying to show or tell 'em.


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## Ralph Rotten (Oct 21, 2018)

This research method does not work for all stories.
Less technical stories don't need this kind of analysis.

However:
Although I am all about the characters, I hate having errors detract from them.
Hence, I research, research, research.  If I cannot physically go to the area, then I use whatever resources I can to get to know the area.


Here is a good example of how research helps build the story.
This is the world as defined by the previous books.
This jpeg will help me to physically see what lies within the zone, and visualize the story.
instead of trying to think up an idea for the story, I can look at the map and see 67 different stories.
All I have to do is use the research I have done to calculate what the towns would look like 6 years post-impact.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 21, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> This research method does not work for all stories.
> Less technical stories don't need this kind of analysis.



I also apply the same method to the characters themselves.

If one of them is from a place I know little of, I start in learning anything I can that might apply to the character I'm using or creating.

I mean, how else do you come up with a Vietnamese wood spirit, if you're not from there, and don't know much about the culture and their myths and legends?

Or find a seldom-heard-of Norse war goddess to put to work on a construction site?

Ya gotta look that stuff up. :thumbr:



G.D.


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