# Would you know eco-fiction if it bit you?



## LeeC (Oct 1, 2016)

With apologies to the critical thinkers that already know better, sometimes I recall a response (serious or not, I can't remember the context) somewhere around these boards that went something like, "Eco-fiction is written by Native Americans to make the rest of us feel bad about what they see being done to their world." I hope I'm remembering near enough and am not not twisting anyone's words because that isn't my intent. 

Sometimes in recalling, I've searched for the response without success to comment further. I might have asked how many were aware that E. B. White's Charlotte's Web was considered by a fair number of critical thinkers to be exceptional children's eco-fiction.

It turns out that a much fuller explanation has been added to Wikipedia. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecofiction

Blast away ;-)*Save**Save*​


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## PiP (Oct 2, 2016)

Hi Lee, great post! So when I tell my granddaughter stories about the insects and critters who live in my garden and how they interact with humans that is ecofiction?

Thank you for reminding me of E. B. White's _Charlotte's Web. _It's certainly a book I will be reading to my granddaughter.

_I've just spent and extremely interesting half hour reading 
_




_I love the quote by Baba Dioum_


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## Sam (Oct 2, 2016)

Eco-fiction is any fiction whose underlying theme is nature and how it is affected -- for better or worse -- by humans. It is the relationship between literature and the natural world. 

But eco-fiction is a broad and disputed term. There are many people who argue it doesn't exist. I'm not one of them. The reality is that literally any fiction can be read from an eco-critical perspective, but there are specific genres that are classed as eco-fiction: the pastoral, solarpunk, climate fiction (cli-fi), wilderness, and even western genres are provably eco-themed. 

At the moment, I'm arguing that dystopian and post-apocalyptic genres are also provably eco-themed in my master's thesis.


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## J Anfinson (Oct 2, 2016)

First let's define what you mean by critical thinking. From criticalthinking.org:



> Critical thinking is the intellectually disciplined process of actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, and/or evaluating information gathered from, or generated by, observation, experience, reflection, reasoning, or communication, as a guide to belief and action. In its exemplary form, it is based on universal intellectual values that transcend subject matter divisions: clarity, accuracy, precision, consistency, relevance, sound evidence, good reasons, depth, breadth, and fairness


.

Now let's look at the quote you mentioned.



> "Eco-fiction is written by Native Americans to make the rest of us feel bad about what they see being done to their world."



Based on reasoning alone, it's undeniably generalizing to say that eco-fiction is written only by Native Americans, or that the purpose is to make others feel bad. Furthermore, one should cite their sources as proof or otherwise there's no sound evidence. And so clearly that argument is a logical fallacy.


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## LeeC (Oct 2, 2016)

Thank you all. Despite my rather immature baiting title the "critical thinkers" (with a nod to Jake) grasped what I was trying to convey. Heartening to this old fool. 

I think, PiP, that eco-fiction/nonfiction is as much a state of perception in the reader, as it is intent on the writers part. On the reader's part, understanding how all life is connected, and how respectful coexistence benefits our own existence, shows more objective perception and adds depth to what is read.  At the same time a reader can enjoy a story without being aware of natural world aspects. 

On the writer's part there may be no attempt to include natural world aspects, such happening simply because any depiction of reality is a natural world aspect. In between, as I tried to do, is a hopefully interesting story written with a ecocentric/biocentric undercurrent. Then there is writing that is overtly intended to increase awareness of natural world aspects. Examples of such that I put up reviews for are William Stolzenburg's Heart of a Lion, and Duncan Morrison's Hope or High Water. 

As with anything we do though, our subjectiveness encroaches on objectiveness. As a clear example, not to single out a particular perspective, think about a common vegan approach to eco-fiction. Bless their souls, empathy reigns, and sometimes clouds reality.  It's true that meat production is a significant contributor to global warming, but at the same time we can't ignore that the natural food chain is a closed circle, and breaking that circle invites just as much habitat diminishment. If we are all to become herbivores, then we must allow sufficient populations of predators (wolves, big cats, grizzly bears, ...) to manage herbivore populations (yeah, us included). If one thinks such extremist, then they don't fully understand the ecological science behind what I'm saying. "The extermination of the earth’s apex predators— the lions and wolves of the land, the great sharks and big fish of the sea, all so vehemently swept aside in humanity’s global swarming— have triggered a cascade of ecological consequences. Where the predators no longer hunt, their prey has run amok, amassing at freakish densities, crowding out competing species, denuding landscapes and seascapes as they go." [paraphrased from William Stolzenburg's Heart of a Lion]. 

So yes PiP, when you tell your stories to your granddaughter about the insects and critters who live in your garden and how they interact with humans, that is narrative eco-nonfiction. Maybe in increasing her curiosity, she'll develop into a world-renowned ecologist  My grandson** has taken to the natural world like white on rice. 


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Of course, Sam has much more succinctly explained the idea of eco-fiction. As to your thesis Sam, I would think dystopian and post-apocalyptic genres are by their very nature eco-themed, but I wouldn't know how to argue such. I believe two of the books I posted reviews for fit that mold, JD Shaw's Thirst and Clara Hume's Back to the Garden. 


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And yes Jake, I know you're a critical thinker. Those doctorates got nothing on us Joe Schmoes  What I'm waiting for from you is a horror novel with a ecocentric/biocentric undercurrent. Think about what I mentioned above regarding predators — that's why I mentioned it ;-) 


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Thank you all for understanding and contributing.




** Have I mentioned, less than a hundred times, that's his picture on the cover of my book, along with my canine companion.


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## J Anfinson (Oct 3, 2016)

> And yes Jake, I know you're a critical thinker


. 

Well I'm hardly an intellectual but I had to take a class in critical thinking a while back. I just wanted to make the point that by definition alone you can tear that generalization to pieces. Carry on.


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## Sam (Oct 3, 2016)

> Of course, Sam has much more succinctly explained the idea of eco-fiction. As to your thesis Sam, I would think dystopian and post-apocalyptic genres are by their very nature eco-themed, but I wouldn't know how to argue such. I believe two of the books I posted reviews for fit that mold, JD Shaw's Thirst and Clara Hume's Back to the Garden.



They are essentially eco-themed, insofar as nature is anathema to the dystopian state (often the totalitarian or authoritarian state), and essential for the survival of the post-apocalyptic world and characters. 





> And yes Jake, I know you're a critical thinker. Those doctorates got nothing on us Joe Schmoes  *What I'm waiting for from you is a horror novel with a ecocentric/biocentric undercurrent.* Think about what I mentioned above regarding predators — that's why I mentioned it ;-)



I'm working on one.


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## Em Woodbury (Dec 2, 2016)

I am replying late to this thread. I believe that ecofiction is very much a real thing and has been studied now for over 50 years. Note, I am not that old but have been researching it for years now and helped to write the ecofiction article at Wikipedia as well as run a website with that as the domain name. I think it's a useful domain name, but this fiction doesn't necessarily have to be anything more than a very diverse/broad super genre or category of fiction to group certain works together for the purpose of study or reading (if you like books where nature is central to the story).

"Eco-fiction is written by Native Americans to make the rest of us feel bad about what they see being done to their world." This quote is most assuredly wrong, as a very diverse group of authors write eco-novels, from science fiction to classical literature authors, to newer genres such as "Anthropocene fiction". The quote also stereotypes First Nations writers, which is embarrassing.

I would not keep using this quote as an example of why or why not to write or read ecofiction, as it's obviously in error and probably a little sarcastic or cynical to begin with, but mostly because it really doesn't do anything but put a good category of literature in a bad light. The quote is not representative of this fiction in the least.


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## Kevin (Dec 2, 2016)

Eco-fiction is purely that: fiction. I think Eco-fantasy is more apt as it is assuredly a man made concept having nothing to do with anything real. Everything here was created for us to use and when it's used up God has plan B. That may and will be an unpleasant time for most of you, but not for us. 

(pin drop)


l loved Jerry Falwell. Is gluttony a sin?
 What?

haha


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## escorial (Dec 3, 2016)

only work i've read about this stuff is your words....and to be honest i'm more interested in how you put people into the mix....i get the nature and it's purity but a world without humans good or bad does not rock my boat....your writing has that fine balance for me that delivers.


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## moderan (Aug 6, 2017)

Some critical thoughts:
I don't see the point of the semantic hairsplitting. This:


> "Eco-fiction is written by Native Americans to make the rest of us feel bad about what they see being done to their world."



Is clearly either trolling or abject ignorance.

The wiki article trades on the passages of one book. It makes me sorry that I'm not an editor any more. The footnotes and research are decent though. Am I being snide? You make the call. Sorry, Em Woodbury, but I gotta call 'em as I see 'em. 

Speaking of which:

Jack London wrote a hell of a lot of ecofiction. So did Carlos Castenada, to cite two examples. Sinclair's The Jungle is probably not, unless you are to count 'the city' as an example of an ecology. Arguable.
At the other end, where's the dystopian ecofiction, that which spurred this discussion back in the early 60s? Aldiss' Hothouse (or The Long Afternoon of Earth), several notable Ballard novels, or the ecofact, like Rachel Carson's work, in this discussion? GIGO.
Let's not even go toward the Brunner or the Disch or the Harrison yet. We're half a century away from Vandermeer and Barron and ecopunk and weird. we haven't even gotten to Desmond Morris or Toffler.

Sam and I have had many long conversations about this. Many. 

Lee...you know I love you, but


> *Would you know eco-fiction if it bit you?*



Really? Wouldn't that be best addressed to the poster that committed the passage you quoted? or is it clickbait?

I know this is your hobbyhorse but this is my bailiwick, so to speak. Sorry again to be disagreeable.


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## Sam (Aug 6, 2017)

Yeah, I agree completely, and I said in an earlier post that you can lump, for lack of an apter term, so much fiction into the eco. 

For example: William Golding's _Lord of the Flies. _Or Jack Kerouac's _On the Road. _Or Richard Matheson's _I am Legend. _None of them are classed as strictly eco-fictional, but that's not the point here. 

There's a cornucopia of eco-themed books out there that were written by the greatest names in the history of science fiction, and I imagine one per cent of them were Native American. 

And we've yet to mention Ernest Callenbach, the guy who by all accounts coined the word 'ecofiction'.


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## Kevin (Aug 6, 2017)

"Sorry again to be disagreeable."- It's only through contention that we question what is known. It is only by questioning do we add to what is already known.


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## LeeC (Aug 6, 2017)

To me, in addition to a good story being 1 + 1 > 2, in the ecolit realm I see realistic depiction of our behavioral tendencies being an important element. We're not innocent bystanders which is the crux of the issue. We have the potential of recognizing and correcting our excessive effects on our habitat, which is probably the most glaring difference between ourselves and other life forms. Even with well-meaning attempts at ecolit we often fall short. Take "The Monkey Wrench Gang" by Edward Abbey — it could be argued that the well-meaning characters in the book could be a lot more eco-friendly themselves (or is that an intentional depiction, something to think about).

What I think does little good is stories the culminate in "the good surviving," giving short shift to all the innocents that perished. They simply appeal to our subjective nature, giving the reader the idea they can sit idly by. Though I've already mentioned it elsewhere, an example to me of ecolit that might make a difference is "The Water Knife" by Paolo Bacigalupi. A rip snorting suspense thriller with a setting in the arid Southwest when the chickens are coming home to roost re our excesses of resource usage, depicting our very likely on the whole relative behavior. 

I too often fall short in my own book, failing to depict our behavioral tendencies sufficiently (avoiding being openly condemnatory) so the reader realizes all I'm actually saying, and haven't been good at explaining such to inquires. One email asked point blank what they were supposed to get out of my book. Having a bad day with other issues, my pompous curmudgeonly answer was to read between the lines, which I'm sure didn't help. Another review, by an author I'd reviewed, was that it was environmental ramblings in "cattle country." Asking people to read with objective minds is fraught with land mines, the person being a past creative writing instructor. I had been very positive in my review of the person's own book, though personally I saw it as formalistic, adhering to dogmatic educational vice. On the other hand it is heartening to see the positive comments by mostly European readers 

I gotta get back to my illustrating, with the hope of reaching more readers.


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## moderan (Aug 6, 2017)

> There's a cornucopia of eco-themed books out there that were written by  the greatest names in the history of science fiction, and I imagine one  per cent of them were Native American.



Which is sad when you think about it. More voices can only improve the product. 



> Ernest Callenbach



Left him to your tender mercies. He coined it but it existed long before. What is Del Rey's Nerves but an exercise in ecofiction? And Wells, and London (as mentioned) and Verne and a lot of Burroughs (ER)? Often mixed with what we can call Sociofiction, if we're to adhere to the nomenclature. Campbell's Twilight, for example, which is solidly within Wells' tradition, or The Lost World. Journey to the Center of the Earth, anyone?
I love The Water Knife -- I live in the desert; it asks for-real questions. Paolo Bacigalupi is a facebook friend, although a distant one. Writer, busy. Can't say we've spoken but the connection is there, however vague.


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## old.bull.lee (Aug 6, 2017)

LeeC said:


> Even with well-meaning attempts at ecolit we often fall short. Take "The Monkey Wrench Gang" by Edward Abbey — it could be argued that the well-meaning characters in the book could be a lot more eco-friendly themselves (or is that an intentional depiction, something to think about).



Abbey wasn't interested in being eco-friendly in the sense you're referencing. He was a man who himself liked to go around the desert drinking beer, tossing the cans on the side of dirt roads and sabotaging development equipment. So yes, it was an intentional depiction.


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## LeeC (Aug 7, 2017)

moderan said:


> ... I love The Water Knife -- I live in the desert; it asks for-real questions. Paolo Bacigalupi is a facebook friend, although a distant one. ...


Happy to come across someone else that's familiar with the book. I like the way the human condition is portrayed — like it's always the other party that's corrupt ;-) You living in the desert, you know where all the bodies are buried


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