# Business License for Self Publishing?



## jayelle_cochran

EDIT: I think I figured it out.  Scroll down to post #6 to see...

My google-fu isn't working at the moment.  There are a lot of things that I've learned over the years about self-publishing and one subject that I hadn't tried to learn about till now.  So, if you guys could either help me out or tell me where I could look for this information I would be greatly appreciative.

I'm wondering about some of the business aspects about self publishing such as a business license, fictitious business name, logo, etc.  I want my novels to be presented professionally.  This includes putting something on the cover and inside the book in regards to a publisher.  I know that many self-published authors don't bother with such a thing, however I felt that it might give my books a more polished look.  

Now, obviously I'm not a publishing house.  So, I'm wondering if there are any protocols for when it comes to self-published works?  

I was waiting until my novel was written before I started looking too far into the business aspect rather than researching marketing and options.  Yesterday I completed it and after a final review of the last ten chapters (the rest of the novel had already been reviewed more times than I know), I sent it to my editor this morning.  Now I am looking at cover artists and trying to find what else I'll need.  My editor is doing this as a favor since she's retired, so I know it may take a while before she's done.  That gives me time to do the research I need.  So, that's where I am now.

Anyway, I'm wondering if I'll need to get a business license since I will be selling and distributing my books myself (as well as on Amazon and Kindle and whatnot).  If I do that then I'll need to apply for a fictitious business name.  So, do I make that a publisher type of name that also lets people know I self publish?  If I do that then it'll go in the publisher sections on the book which means a logo for the spine...right?  This is how my line of thought works, sorry if I lost anyone.  I'm just feeling a little lost myself.

I'm still going to continue looking.  If I find anything useful I'll put it on this thread so others can benefit too.  As always, any info or advice is welcome!

*hugs*
Jayelle


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## Lewdog

I would think you would simply use your Social Security number and keep records and report it on your taxes at the end of the year as income.


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## shadowwalker

You would have to check with your state as to business regulations, but normally you would be working simply as a self-employed person, not as a strict business entity. If you set up a publishing company (even if you are the only client) you could set yourself up to pay even more in taxes - because the business may have to pay taxes (depending on what form you set it up as), and then you have to pay taxes on what the business pays you - it can get very complicated and very expensive if you try to get too 'business-like'. I would contact your local SCORE or SBA - they can advise you on what alternatives you can look at and what the benefits/consequences would be.


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## jayelle_cochran

Thank you shadowwalker.  I'll do that.  I've run a business before as a sole-proprietor and that worked well for me.  However, I still needed a license and fictitious name done.  As a sole-proprietor there are no employees so the taxes aren't as high.  I only have to pay taxes on the items I sell (ie. sales tax) and what I'm paid (same as with anything else).  The business license is actually proof that you paid a yearly business tax where I live.  So, that's not an issue for me.  

My question would be that* if I didn't create a business for this, then what do I put in place of the publisher when I print my book?*  That's what has my head spinning at the moment.  The rest I can figure out easily.  I'm not publishing under my own personal name and will be selling my own books through my website, so that's why I figured I would need a business license and whatnot.  

Grrrr....why can't there just be one site with all the information you would ever need?  lol

*hugs*
Jayelle


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## Rustgold

You should be able to register a proper business name for under $100.
You should also be able to register this as a 'sole trader' (or equivalent), which means your income will go on your personal tax account.  You may even be able to claim business deductions via this method.  You should also be able to have a bank account under the business trading name.


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## jayelle_cochran

Hey everyone.  I think my google-fu managed to fix itself.  Yesterday after dinner I found all the information I wanted.  I also found a lot of great sites that go into what a self-published author needs.

From what I learned, if you're planning on only selling your books through Amazon and Kindle and the like then you don't NEED a business license or anything else.  Just claim what you make through them on your tax return. 

Considering I'm going to be selling and distributing my books through my website (as well as doing kindle and Amazon), I'm going to need to have a business.  This means I'll need:

Business license (here it's also your business tax receipt)
Sale's Tax license
Seller/Vendor license/ID
Fictitious Business Name registered and put in with local paper
Create and Register Logo

Now, I'm also going to need to:

Get a PO box
Buy or make business cards 
Bookkeeping (including how many books I sell or give away, what I spend, what I make, etc)
Set up website equipped for taking orders and processing credit cards

I'm not sure how much this will cost me.  I know some of the prices.  The licenses aren't expensive but needing so many can add up.  I'm not going to get a PO box or a merchant account for my site until I have more books out there and have something coming in.  Since we're moving to another state in less than 2 years, the PO box will probably wait until then.  Business cards are cheap, I've gone that route before.  I already have a website that's paid for another 2 years...I just need to change the web address.  The bookkeeping is the cheapest part of this.  I already have spreadsheets and word documents set up for keeping track of everything.  

I am going to set myself up as a sole-proprietorship.  It's the easiest to handle come tax time, it's the cheapest as far as the business license goes, and I've done it before.  Today I'm going to price how much the licenses are so I know what my start-up cost for this portion is going to be.  I've said it before and I'll say it again: Whatever I don't have money for I will get through other means.  Saving, donating plasma, doing odd jobs, etc...  In case you didn't realize this already, I don't let obstacles block my path for long.

There are quite a few sides to self-publishing.  There's the business side which has to do with what I wrote above.  Then there's the marketing side which would deal with advertisements (not till much later), social networking, virtual book tours, and promotions.  There's the distributing side which will deal with inventory and getting the novels into stores if possible.  There's the publishing side that deals with editors, cover art, and getting the finished novel out there.  Finally and most importantly, there's the writing side which never ends and is my favorite part.  lol  If I were an actual publishing house then I would have employees to handle all of this.  I'm doing it myself which is a daunting task but one that I'm ready to take on.  

I'm a stay-at-home mom who has some disabilities and two special-needs kids.  I know running a business full time from my home will be difficult.  I'm prepared for that.  I also am really excited about it.  I've been wanting to work for YEARS and couldn't.  This will fulfill that urge to work and contribute to the household income.  I know it'll take a while before I see profits that count (my best guess is 3 years), but I also feel that the potential for success is there so it's worth the hard work.

*hugs*
Jayelle


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## ppsage

I have operated a sole proprietor street vendor business out of my house for decades. A separate checking account is good and mine at least is free. I regret not looking into setting up an llc when I had the energy, not sure it's better but I wish I'd looked. I've always had a post-office box, but changing addresses is a problem, less so with internet though. Thank god I don't live in a sales tax state. Good luck. pp


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## Whisper

jayelle_cochran said:


> Considering I'm going to be selling and distributing my books through my website (as well as doing kindle and Amazon), I'm going to need to have a business. This means I'll need:
> 
> Business license (here it's also your business tax receipt)
> Sale's Tax license
> Seller/Vendor license/ID
> Fictitious Business Name registered and put in with local paper
> Create and Register Logo
> 
> Now, I'm also going to need to:



Just for clarificaiton: If you weren't selling through your website, you would not need all this stuff, right?

You have to do all of the above because you are setting up a website to sell your book?


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## shadowwalker

Yeah, the website thing - aren't you still selling via smashwords/lulu/whoever? I know a few other self-publishers who sell via their website but they haven't bothered with all of that. But then you're in California, and they're always weird about stuff  LOL


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## Rustgold

jayelle_cochran said:


> Fictitious Business Name registered and put in with local paper



Why do you keep writing this?
It's not a fictitious name if you're doing it properly and registering it.  You'll be able to have a bank account with the name and accept revenue with the name, there's nothing fictitious about it.  And the fact you'll only be selling your own works doesn't matter; it's still a real proper registered business name, used for self-employed business purposes.


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## Lewdog

ppsage said:


> I have operated a sole proprietor street vendor business out of my house for decades. A separate checking account is good and mine at least is free. I regret not looking into setting up an llc when I had the energy, not sure it's better but I wish I'd looked. I've always had a post-office box, but changing addresses is a problem, less so with internet though. Thank god I don't live in a sales tax state. Good luck. pp



Setting up an LLC is important when you run a business because it disconnects your personal assets from those of the business.  I learned this the hard way when I had a custom picture framing business that I had to eventually fold before the lease was up on my rented space.  The mall sued me for the remaining amount owed on the lease.  If I had an LLC they wouldn't have been able to do that.


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## shadowwalker

Depending on the state, though, you may not be allowed to operate as an LLC. It may have changed, but in Minnesota they're pretty strict about those, particularly if you can't show enough assets to cover problems - ie, they don't want people using it as a dodge to get away from bill collectors (not implying at all that's what you did, of course!).


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## Lewdog

shadowwalker said:


> Depending on the state, though, you may not be allowed to operate as an LLC. It may have changed, but in Minnesota they're pretty strict about those, particularly if you can't show enough assets to cover problems - ie, they don't want people using it as a dodge to get away from bill collectors (not implying at all that's what you did, of course!).



No...that's what I wish I had done!  That's the point.  :coffeescreen:

Honestly, as long as people aren't intending to fail, that's the point of an LLC, to separate a business venture from personal assets.  Losing a business is bad enough, losing your home, car, or having to file for personal bankruptcy is the worst.


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## DPVP

shadowwalker said:


> Yeah, the website thing - aren't you still selling via smashwords/lulu/whoever? I know a few other self-publishers who sell via their website but they haven't bothered with all of that. But then you're in California, and they're always weird about stuff  LOL


its not called Comifornia for nothing. i thought it was bad in Bloombergs dystopia or the peoples republics of the north east.


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## Kevin

@whisper- you sell anything regularly in ca you have to do all this stuff. It's how they get there cut.
@shadow- yes ca is strange- seems they want a cut of any business transaction. No idea why...
@ rusty- 'fictitious' is the state's language; not hers
@dpvp- watch it...or you'll make the list. "_ca... ubber alles."- j.b. _


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## Rustgold

Kevin said:


> @ rusty- 'fictitious' is the state's language; not hers


No state or federal government agency would ever use this term (in relation to business name registration); not ever.  The terms used are sole trader, self employed (informal), or trading as (Joe Jones trading as Business-r-Us).


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## jayelle_cochran

Rusty, it actually is what the state calls it.  I didn't make up the name.  Here in California it is called a "Fictitious Business Name".  Don't believe me?  Registering a Fictitious Business Name <--has all the info on the subject for the state of California.

Now, someone asked me a question about if this is only for selling my own books vs having Amazon or Kindle do it.  The answer is...I think so.  I'm about 98% sure that if you are not selling your books yourself then you don't need a business license and all that jazz.  I could be wrong though.  To be on the safe side, look up the information for your state and your county AND your city (the laws can change from one to the other).  Also, you're City Hall should have the info on their website if not at their physical location.

As for who asked about selling through whomever is printing my book...yeah not going to do that.  I will be using createspace but I'm not going to sell through them (except for on Amazon).  If I buy my book from them and then sell it myself I actually make a larger profit.  I could just direct people to the createspace page that I could make through them, but to me that would look highly unprofessional.  I would rather take the time and energy to present my novels and myself as professional rather than amateur; especially since professional is what I want to be.

As for the LLC and whatnot...I had thought about creating an LLC incase someone tried to sue me over something stupid.  I honestly can't see that happening, but then again no one predicts being sued.  I checked with my state's business site and saw that the price for the license is the same regardless of the type of business I have.  The exception is if I have more than 5 employees...then the prices go up.  I won't have any employees so I don't have to worry about that.  I'll think more on it.  I'm going to get the license sometime this week.

I have everything priced and figured out.  There are some things that can wait and will be purchased in due time.  The main thing for me is the business license and fictitious name statement.  After that I will be paying for the cover art of the novel.  Everything else will come after that.  I'm happy to say that the seller's permit is free in my state.  I also figured out how state tax works when it comes to internet sales and where to get the forms to file said taxes.  Everything is falling into place.

*hugs*
Jayelle


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## Kevin

too late...


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## Lewdog

jayelle_cochran said:


> As for the LLC and whatnot...I had thought about creating an LLC incase someone tried to sue me over something stupid.  I honestly can't see that happening, but then again no one predicts being sued.  I checked with my state's business site and saw that the price for the license is the same regardless of the type of business I have.  The exception is if I have more than 5 employees...then the prices go up.  I won't have any employees so I don't have to worry about that.  I'll think more on it.  I'm going to get the license sometime this week.
> 
> 
> *hugs*
> Jayelle



I've heard setting up an LLC has gotten pretty cheap, if so it's definitely worth it.  You just never know what can happen.  I personally lost over $150,000 from my failed business by not having an LLC.  Talk about an expensive lesson learned.


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## DPVP

Kevin said:


> @dpvp- watch it...or you'll make the list. "_ca... ubber alles."- j.b. _


what are you talking about?


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## moderan

Working under a byline or identity not your own has been known in the states as a DBA (Doing Business As...) for _years_. Sorry I didn't see this before. I've had at least one of those licenses continuously since the late seventies. Coulda cleared it up. But it's easy enough to find out about, as you've seen. If worst comes to worst, you can usually get a free consult with a lawyer that works in your specific entertainment field and get the straight dope.
You shouldn't need an llc or need to incorporate. Generally you just register as the DBA, get your business license(s) and go from there.
There are also a lot of tax advantages that go along with working from home, and in most cases they more than balance your payables.
I'm doing the same path with my Crazytown book. Createspace is just the generator. I'll sell the thing through whatever outlets under the auspices of planetmoderan, which is my umbrella company, and could, if I wanted to, subcontract with myself for other services such as editing, music and video production, marketing, etc, depending on what's needed, as I've registered with various companies such as the WGA, BMI, ASCAP. It can be as complicated or as simple as you like, legally.


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## jayelle_cochran

Moderan, you rock!   

To me, doing this as a business makes sense.  When I was trying to learn about self-publishing I also read the blogs of authors who are doing well.  One thing I noticed was that they all treated it as a business.  It was their income.  The ones I have spoken with personally have told me this as well.  There are a lot of wonderful blogs written by sucessful self-published authors.  I've read a lot of the ones that teach about what they do to be successful, besides write well.  While it's easier to be successful this way with non-fiction books, fiction novels are catching up.  Especially since even some well known authors are starting to publish their own books.  This helps the image of self-publishing.  There are many, fiction and non-fiction writers alike, who feel that self-publishing is growing in respectability.  

They way I see it, if a self-published author is going to be able to compete with "the big boys" (ie. publishing houses and other successful self-published authors) then we're going to have to treat our novels as more than expression and creativity.  We're also going to have to treat them the way a business would.  What I'm doing is writing them as a writer and the rest is business.

*shrugs*  That's just my opinion.

*hugs*
Jayelle


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## Lewdog

Save receipts...lots and lots of receipts.  Make copies of all the receipts, and if you can, get a credit/debit card just for the business so that gives you another way to keep track of expenditures.  Treat every receipt like it's money, because come tax time, that's exactly what it is.  I can't stress enough how important that stuff is, and keeping it highly organized and protected.


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## moderan

jayelle_cochran said:


> Moderan, you rock!
> 
> To me, doing this as a business makes sense.  When I was trying to learn about self-publishing I also read the blogs of authors who are doing well.  One thing I noticed was that they all treated it as a business.  It was their income.  The ones I have spoken with personally have told me this as well.  There are a lot of wonderful blogs written by sucessful self-published authors.  I've read a lot of the ones that teach about what they do to be successful, besides write well.  While it's easier to be successful this way with non-fiction books, fiction novels are catching up.  Especially since even some well known authors are starting to publish their own books.  This helps the image of self-publishing.  There are many, fiction and non-fiction writers alike, who feel that self-publishing is growing in respectability.
> 
> They way I see it, if a self-published author is going to be able to compete with "the big boys" (ie. publishing houses and other successful self-published authors) then we're going to have to treat our novels as more than expression and creativity.  We're also going to have to treat them the way a business would.  What I'm doing is writing them as a writer and the rest is business.
> 
> *shrugs*  That's just my opinion.
> 
> *hugs*
> Jayelle


Yeah, there's really no other way. There's the writing, which generates product. Once you have the product, you then distribute said product. That's business. The thing to keep in mind is that entertainment product is governed by different laws than other widgets. I always recommend consulting with legal counsel at least once-they'll have knowledge specific to your area of endeavor and can save you massive headaches down the road.
Set up separate banking, keep your paper trail and electronic trail. Learn what you can deduct from your tax and what you can't, and make absolutely sure to file-some states require quarterly filing and you need to know if your state is one--they'll have no trouble whatsoever getting a judgement for an arbitrary figure if you don't, and that's bad news. I had it happen with my band once, and again with my home textiles business in the oughts.
You probably won't need to hire an accountant but you should talk to one.
A web presence is important. Every indie publisher I know has a blog at least. Most do business from a webside storefront. If you aren't handy with such, I'd suggest getting someone to build a site for you, just to look "pro".
And network. Network as if your life depended on it. Because it kinda does. Reviews are a sort of currency, and you'll be known by the company you keep--that's your context. Don't worry about the "self-publisher stigma". That applies to amateurs. You can identify them by their badly-written blurbs, wonky ideas, dependence on jargon, and general air of cluelessness. 
Keep your goals realistic. Don't expect to break the bank. You're doing well if you can make an income comparable to working retail. Many professional writers have day jobs. It's just the nature of the beast.


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## JosephB

I learned from the experience of starting my business that the most important thing is to get an accountant -- at least for an initial consultation and your first tax return. You don't want to innocently run afoul of the IRS, because they can make your life miserable. I used to wonder why some people hated the IRS so much -- and naively thought if you paid your taxes on time and in good faith, you'd be fine. We all make mistakes, right? Wrong. They show no mercy -- and you find yourself dealing with an endless succession of people who range from apathetic to hostile. And if they make a mistake, good luck getting it rectified. Evil is a strong word -- but sometimes my wife and I really felt like that's what we were up against. But the real problem is, the vast majority of them just don't give a damn.


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## Rustgold

jayelle_cochran said:


> Rusty, it actually is what the state calls it.  I didn't make up the name.  Here in California it is called a "Fictitious Business Name".  Don't believe me?  Registering a Fictitious Business Name <--has all the info on the subject for the state of California.


Wow, I'm really amazed by this (and not in a positive way).  Are they seeking fictitious businesses like a tax haven seeks tax dodgers?  But, of course, it's California, so it'd be wrong to expect too much.

PS: Sorry for thinking it was your wording earlier.


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## shadowwalker

"Fictitious business name" is a common term, also "assumed business name", or "DBA". It's just a way of indicating that the name used for the business is not your actual name. It's not saying the business is fictitious - just that the name is (like an author would use a pseudonym).


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## jayelle_cochran

Because of money being tight I'm setting up the business in steps.  First is to get a business license, fictitious name statement, and seller/vendor permit.  Here in California, if I use my last name and my industry as my business name then I don't need to file.  So, that part depends on what name I come up with.  Next, I'm going to hire a cover artist for the novel that's currently being edited.  I want to do this second because, from what I know, that can count as a business expense and could help come tax time.  Then comes the website.  I already have a blog and social networking profiles that I'm getting into the habit of updating.  After that would be any other little things such as business cards and a bank account.  The cards can wait a while as I don't see myself handing them out any time soon.  The bank account can also wait.  Most banks make you pay a fee each month and I would rather wait till I am making money first.  

Joseph, I am going to consult with an accountant friend of mine about filing quarterly taxes and about filing state sales tax.  I know quite a bit about that from my own research.  However, it would be a good idea to make sure the information I have is correct.  I had done this research for my facepainting business and things worked out well.  I believe that here you only have to file the quarterly taxes if your business made over a certain amount.  Otherwise you can file them at the same time as your taxes.  That's what I did last year and it was fine.  But, you're right...it's so much better to be safe than sorry.

Moderan, I didn't know that there would be different laws for entertainment products than other kinds.  I'm going to look them up to see what will affect me and what won't.  If it seems confusing then I'll consult someone.  At the moment, however, I can't afford a consultation with a lawyer.  I know a lawyer, but this isn't his field.  

Rustgold, that's just what they call it.  Mostly because the name you have for your business isn't your actual name, so it's fictitious or made-up.  It has no reflection on California's views on business.  A rose by any other name....

Lewdog, I know about the receipt thing.  I have a folder ready for that.  I also have a scanner so making copies of the receipts and any invoices will be easy.  This is important because I've noticed that receipts fade quickly.  Also, it'll be easier to have everything on a file rather than just in my folder.  lol

*There's one thing I haven't figured out:
*
When I print my novel, *what do I put for the publisher* on there?  Do I put myself or do I put createspace down?  It's really the only issue I can't seem to find information on at all.  Going to research more today but if anyone has an idea I would love to hear it!

*hugs*
Jayelle


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## Lewdog

Have you decided if you are going to pay yourself?  I was always told that it makes taxes easier and saves you money.


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## moderan

Rustgold said:


> Wow, I'm really amazed by this (and not in a  positive way).  Are they seeking fictitious businesses like a tax haven  seeks tax dodgers?  But, of course, it's California, so it'd be wrong to  expect too much.
> 
> PS: Sorry for thinking it was your wording earlier.


Right.  Because casting aspersions at a state in another country is always  warranted, and determined misunderstanding is to be desired.



shadowwalker said:


> "Fictitious business name" is a common term,  also "assumed business name", or "DBA". It's just a way of indicating  that the name used for the business is not your actual name. It's not  saying the business is fictitious - just that the name is (like an  author would use a pseudonym).


Indeed, as has been explained several times.



JosephB said:


> I learned from the experience of starting my business that the most important thing is to get an accountant -- at least for an initial consultation and your first tax return. You don't want to innocently run afoul of the IRS, because they can make your life miserable. I used to wonder why some people hated the IRS so much -- and naively thought if you paid your taxes on time and in good faith, you'd be fine. We all make mistakes, right? Wrong. They show no mercy -- and you find yourself dealing with an endless succession of people who range from apathetic to hostile. And if they make a mistake, good luck getting it rectified. Evil is a strong word -- but sometimes my wife and I really felt like that's what we were up against. But the real problem is, the vast majority of them just don't give a damn.



Yeah, they really don't. And they're not alone. If you feel better limiting your liability via llc, then by all means do so. But responsibility for the product and action of the company still devolves upon the operator. I'm still paying for not filing tax one quarter in New York state. The court rendered judgement for an astronomically high arbitrary figure as expected earnings. I got that knocked down to reality but the attorney fees almost bankrupted me. Pile that on top of the business failing because of my partner's disability.


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## jayelle_cochran

Lewdog said:


> Have you decided if you are going to pay yourself?  I was always told that it makes taxes easier and saves you money.



It'll be a while before I pay myself.  First I'm going to save up what I make to help publish and put out more books.  Once I can do that without having to dip into my own pocket then I can focus on what I'll pay myself.  At this point in time I can't determine when that will be or how much.  In my mind that won't be for a few years if I'm conservative about my estimate.  Truthfully, I'll have to wait and see how well my novels are received before I can make a guess with any amount of accuracy what my profits would be.  

This is what I have thought for now.  Naturally, things might change based on what's happening.  I will keep track of what I give myself if I take money out for something non-business related.  That will then be calculated as my pay.  Truthfully though I would rather wait until the business can support itself before I'm paid.  It just makes sense.

*hugs*
Jayelle


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## JosephB

moderan said:


> Yeah, they really don't. And they're not alone. If you feel better limiting your liability via llc, then by all means do so. But responsibility for the product and action of the company still devolves upon the operator. I'm still paying for not filing tax one quarter in New York state. The court rendered judgement for an astronomically high arbitrary figure as expected earnings. I got that knocked down to reality but the attorney fees almost bankrupted me. Pile that on top of the business failing because of my partner's disability.



We did the LLC thing, thought we were doing things right. It's the last thing I want to deal with -- my wife took on the taxes and she's pretty sharp and good with numbers. We made an error and they fined us -- we didn't have the money, so they said -- OK, you can pay us in installments. So we were paying all our quarterly taxes and the installments -- then my wife uncharacteristically forgot to make one payment and they came down on us with the full wrath of the IRS. They put a lien on our house -- totally out of the blue. No warning. No notification. So were were like, OK -- we'll make that payment and it will be all good. But no -- they said we owed the entire amount right then -- and wouldn't take the lien off until it was paid. By then, we had an accountant and he said, beg, borrow or steal -- make the payment because you're screwed. And when we finally put the money together -- they took their sweet time taking the lien off. It took months -- meanwhile we miss out on a refi and our credit rating took a monster hit, because the lien shows up on that. And then when they finally took the lien off, it took forever to straighten out our credit report. Thank you Internal Revenue Service! And we just got a 65.00 fine for something that had to do with some freelance work I did last year. Once you're on their radar -- there's no letting up.


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## moderan

jayelle_cochran said:


> Moderan, I didn't know that there would be different laws for  entertainment products than other kinds.  I'm going to look them up to  see what will affect me and what won't.  If it seems confusing then I'll  consult someone.  At the moment, however, I can't afford a consultation  with a lawyer.  I know a lawyer, but this isn't his field.
> 
> *There's one thing I haven't figured out:
> *
> When I print my novel, *what do I put for the publisher*  on there?  Do I put myself or do I put createspace down?  It's really  the only issue I can't seem to find information on at all.  Going to  research more today but if anyone has an idea I would love to hear it!
> 
> *hugs*
> Jayelle


An initial consult is usually free. Entertainment law  is a field unto itself. I've been in the music business since the 70s  and know that all too well. Let your fingers do the walking until you  find someone who will do a free consult and make sure you check their  references. The field is rife with shysters.
If you're self-publishing, you're the publisher. So you'd use whatever name you have as the DBA.



jayelle_cochran said:


> It'll be a while before I pay myself.  First I'm going to save up what I make to help publish and put out more books.  Once I can do that without having to dip into my own pocket then I can focus on what I'll pay myself.  At this point in time I can't determine when that will be or how much.  In my mind that won't be for a few years if I'm conservative about my estimate.  Truthfully, I'll have to wait and see how well my novels are received before I can make a guess with any amount of accuracy what my profits would be.
> 
> This is what I have thought for now.  Naturally, things might change based on what's happening.  I will keep track of what I give myself if I take money out for something non-business related.  That will then be calculated as my pay.  Truthfully though I would rather wait until the business can support itself before I'm paid.  It just makes sense.
> 
> *hugs*
> Jayelle



It sounds like you're spending a lot of money on this. You shouldn't have to. The question about paying yourself really doesn't apply;writing isn't an hourly job. It isn't a salaried position. You might consider doing a teaser book on smashwords or something like that to gauge audience response and help to determine your target market. I gather from your fb page that we're talking about romance-type work. There's a large potential return but a great deal of formula limitation due to prior expectations of content. There's a member that calls herself RomanticRose, who has published work in that genre-I haven't seen her in a bit but she'd be the one to talk to about that. I may know of some others. Will poke around and see if I can't find a practicing advisor.



JosephB said:


> We did the LLC thing, thought we were doing things right. It's the last thing I want to deal with -- my wife took on the taxes and she's pretty sharp and good with numbers. We made an error and they fined us -- we didn't have the money, so they said -- OK, you can pay us in installments. So we were paying all our quarterly taxes and the installments -- then my wife uncharacteristically forgot to make one payment and they came down on us with the full wrath of the IRS. They put a lien on our house -- totally out of the blue. No warning. No notification. So were were like, OK -- we'll make that payment and it will be all good. But no -- they said we owed the entire amount right then -- and wouldn't take the lien off until it was paid. By then, we had an accountant and he said, beg, borrow or steal -- make the payment because you're screwed. And when we finally put the money together -- they took their sweet time taking the lien off. It took months -- meanwhile we miss out on a refi and our credit rating took a monster hit, because the lien shows up on that. And then when they finally took the lien off, it took forever to straighten out our credit report. Thank you Internal Revenue Service! And we just got a 65.00 fine for something that had to do with some freelance work I did last year. Once you're on their radar -- there's no letting up.



I've had similar experience. I'd just as soon not put them in the public eye.


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## shadowwalker

jayelle_cochran said:


> It'll be a while before I pay myself.  First I'm going to save up what I make to help publish and put out more books.  Once I can do that without having to dip into my own pocket then I can focus on what I'll pay myself.  At this point in time I can't determine when that will be or how much.  In my mind that won't be for a few years if I'm conservative about my estimate.  Truthfully, I'll have to wait and see how well my novels are received before I can make a guess with any amount of accuracy what my profits would be.



Personally, I'd include _some _payment to myself as part of doing business. This is where the line between writer and publisher comes in. You may also want to find out how the IRS/state tax commission would view the income to the company versus _your _income.


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## jayelle_cochran

moderan said:


> It sounds like you're spending a lot of money on this. You shouldn't have to. The question about paying yourself really doesn't apply;writing isn't an hourly job. It isn't a salaried position. You might consider doing a teaser book on smashwords or something like that to gauge audience response and help to determine your target market. I gather from your fb page that we're talking about romance-type work. There's a large potential return but a great deal of formula limitation due to prior expectations of content. There's a member that calls herself RomanticRose, who has published work in that genre-I haven't seen her in a bit but she'd be the one to talk to about that. I may know of some others. Will poke around and see if I can't find a practicing advisor.



My genre is urban fantasy/romance.  Sometimes I'll do sci-fi as well.  I don't really know what I would do for a "teaser book".  I'm not even sure what would qualify.  Just write a novel and see how it's liked on smashwords?  I don't know how that would work really.  I've never even been on their site.  *shrugs*  This is a whole new area for me.  

As for my salary...well that's the thing.  I don't know how much I'll make in the first year, second, third, etc.  I don't have any way of guessing.  My goal is to write and publish 3 novels a year.  I totally understand that won't always be possible.  However, it's what I'm shooting for.  If I were to pay for an editor I'm looking at approximately $750.  For cover art, the artist I decided on is $159.  Now, while I have a friend doing the editing for me, I can't guarantee that she will be able to do all of my novels.  So, I have to figure on paying about $900 per novel.  That would be $2,700 a  year.  

From what I've read, the average time it takes for a self-published author to build any kind of following is usually 8 or 9 novels.  By that time sales are looking good.  However, I don't know how long it'll take for me to get to that point, if it happens at all.  There's no guarantee that the business will make $3000 a year and most likely it won't happen in the first year.

So, yeah, I'm looking at waiting to pay myself.



> If you're self-publishing, you're the publisher. So you'd use whatever name you have as the DBA.



That's what I thought however I wasn't sure.  Thanks hon!

*hugs*
Jayelle


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## jayelle_cochran

Smashwords...just visited them.  I wasn't able to on the computer I was using before.  Now I get what you were saying.  I'm not sure what a "teaser book" is though.  I had heard about this site but didn't know the name...had heard of the name but didn't know what the site was about.  Go figure.

I was planning on doing this for the book anyway if I had found the site, so thank you.  The issue still arises that I'm not willing to put my novel out for free though.  "Teaser" reminds me of "sample" which means "free" in most contexts.

*hugs*
Jayelle


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## moderan

jayelle_cochran said:


> My genre is urban fantasy/romance.  Sometimes I'll do sci-fi as well.  I don't really know what I would do for a "teaser book".  I'm not even sure what would qualify.  Just write a novel and see how it's liked on smashwords?  I don't know how that would work really.  I've never even been on their site.  *shrugs*  This is a whole new area for me.
> 
> As for my salary...well that's the thing.  I don't know how much I'll make in the first year, second, third, etc.  I don't have any way of guessing.  My goal is to write and publish 3 novels a year.  I totally understand that won't always be possible.  However, it's what I'm shooting for.  If I were to pay for an editor I'm looking at approximately $750.  For cover art, the artist I decided on is $159.  Now, while I have a friend doing the editing for me, I can't guarantee that she will be able to do all of my novels.  So, I have to figure on paying about $900 per novel.  That would be $2,700 a  year.
> 
> From what I've read, the average time it takes for a self-published author to build any kind of following is usually 8 or 9 novels.  By that time sales are looking good.  However, I don't know how long it'll take for me to get to that point, if it happens at all.  There's no guarantee that the business will make $3000 a year and most likely it won't happen in the first year.
> 
> So, yeah, I'm looking at waiting to pay myself.
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I thought however I wasn't sure.  Thanks hon!
> 
> *hugs*
> Jayelle





jayelle_cochran said:


> Smashwords...just visited them.  I wasn't  able to on the computer I was using before.  Now I get what you were  saying.  I'm not sure what a "teaser book" is though.  I had heard about  this site but didn't know the name...had heard of the name but didn't  know what the site was about.  Go figure.
> 
> I was planning on doing this for the book anyway if I had found the  site, so thank you.  The issue still arises that I'm not willing to put  my novel out for free though.  "Teaser" reminds me of "sample" which  means "free" in most contexts.
> 
> *hugs*
> Jayelle



A teaser book would be a selection from a novel, packaged as an ebook, and given away to gauge a readership/whet people's appetites for more. Just a way to test-market.
I don't have any data on how long it would take an unknown author to become successful on their own. All of the indies I know have previous publication credits-stories published in magazines or on ezines, some kind of built-in audience.  Most have proofing/editing skills and can design their own covers. To me, that's a minimum of skills necessary to consider self-pubbing. Your situation is very different. I'm not saying that it can't be done, just that it seems like a real gamble to spend that kind of money on an unknown quantity. It seems premature to publish before there's a demand...


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## Lewdog

I'm not sure what your story is about, but what if you wrote a teaser book that was basically like a prequel that gave a bio of your main character?  It wouldn't have to necessarily be an excerpt from your novel, but something to get people interested in it.


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## jayelle_cochran

moderan said:


> A teaser book would be a selection from a novel, packaged as an ebook, and given away to gauge a readership/whet people's appetites for more. Just a way to test-market.
> I don't have any data on how long it would take an unknown author to become successful on their own. All of the indies I know have previous publication credits-stories published in magazines or on ezines, some kind of built-in audience.  Most have proofing/editing skills and can design their own covers. To me, that's a minimum of skills necessary to consider self-pubbing. Your situation is very different. I'm not saying that it can't be done, just that it seems like a real gamble to spend that kind of money on an unknown quantity. It seems premature to publish before there's a demand...



I did plan on having some of the novel available for free.  On Kindle I was going to put out part of the book as it's own free e-book and on smashwords I can put a percentage of the book out for free (read about that on the site yesterday).  So yes, in that sense I'm totally for a teaser.  

You are right that spending money on something when you don't know what the demand would be isn't the safe route.  I don't have the experience or the credentials that you mentioned either.  The problem is that putting something out for free won't give me an accurate idea of how well the novel will sell.  Only putting the novel out there to sell will tell me that.  People will take free stuff without a second thought.  You can put any novel out there for free, of any quality, and it'll be snatched up quickly.  That doesn't mean there's a great demand.  It only means that a lot of people liked the idea of getting a book for free.  With this, it feels as though I won't know until I try.  

I can easily design my own cover.  I'm a good artist and know my way around photoshop.  However, one of the things I've learned is that there are a lot of dos and don'ts when it comes to cover design.  That's something that I personally don't have a great eye for (most of my work is realism based and done in charcoal...very different from a color cover on a novel).  I don't want to go purchase a royalty free stock photo and slap my name and the title on it.  It's obvious when that's done and doesn't look as good.  As for editing, it's my understanding that even those who are great with their own editing should still have someone go over their work.  It's easy for a writer to miss something in their own writing that someone else would notice without any trouble.  Can a book do well when the author does all of the editing and cover art?  Sure.  But, I know my limits.

Am I getting ahead of myself?  Quite possibly.  I have no doubts about that.  I'm not delusional with the thought that I will be a best selling self-published author making big bucks and becoming an overnight success story.  I hope I'm more realistic when thinking about my future.  I do, however, believe enough in my work to feel that there is potential for success.  If I lose out and wind up wasting money then that will suck.  What I would love is to have someone go over my work who is in the field and can give me an idea of the actual potential of the novel (rather than what I think the potential could be).  I have my friend who is editing and she has given a lot of positive feedback so far.  However, I'm talking more about someone who has no attachment to myself.  I don't have that as an option though.  So, I'm going with my gut...right or wrong.

I never go in half-way on anything.  I tend to jump in with both feet after checking how shallow the pool might be.  Sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes  not so much.  But, I never know if I don't try.

*hugs*
Jayelle


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## jayelle_cochran

Lewdog said:


> I'm not sure what your story is about, but what if you wrote a teaser book that was basically like a prequel that gave a bio of your main character?  It wouldn't have to necessarily be an excerpt from your novel, but something to get people interested in it.



That's an idea.  The novel is actually the first in a series.  The series has its own storyline and main character.  The novels are each from the POV of someone different who comes in contact with this person.  She, and the events surounding the main plot of the series, are not the main focus of each book.  I had thought about doing a short story or something about her but I hadn't made any real decisions on that.  If I did it was mostly going to be for myself but putting it out there is an idea.  

*hugs*
Jayelle


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## moderan

jayelle_cochran said:


> I did plan on having some of the novel available for free.  On Kindle I was going to put out part of the book as it's own free e-book and on smashwords I can put a percentage of the book out for free (read about that on the site yesterday).  So yes, in that sense I'm totally for a teaser.
> 
> You are right that spending money on something when you don't know what the demand would be isn't the safe route.  I don't have the experience or the credentials that you mentioned either.  The problem is that putting something out for free won't give me an accurate idea of how well the novel will sell.  Only putting the novel out there to sell will tell me that.  People will take free stuff without a second thought.  You can put any novel out there for free, of any quality, and it'll be snatched up quickly.  That doesn't mean there's a great demand.  It only means that a lot of people liked the idea of getting a book for free.  With this, it feels as though I won't know until I try.
> 
> I can easily design my own cover.  I'm a good artist and know my way around photoshop.  However, one of the things I've learned is that there are a lot of dos and don'ts when it comes to cover design.  That's something that I personally don't have a great eye for (most of my work is realism based and done in charcoal...very different from a color cover on a novel).  I don't want to go purchase a royalty free stock photo and slap my name and the title on it.  It's obvious when that's done and doesn't look as good.  As for editing, it's my understanding that even those who are great with their own editing should still have someone go over their work.  It's easy for a writer to miss something in their own writing that someone else would notice without any trouble.  Can a book do well when the author does all of the editing and cover art?  Sure.  But, I know my limits.
> 
> Am I getting ahead of myself?  Quite possibly.  I have no doubts about that.  I'm not delusional with the thought that I will be a best selling self-published author making big bucks and becoming an overnight success story.  I hope I'm more realistic when thinking about my future.  I do, however, believe enough in my work to feel that there is potential for success.  If I lose out and wind up wasting money then that will suck.  What I would love is to have someone go over my work who is in the field and can give me an idea of the actual potential of the novel (rather than what I think the potential could be).  I have my friend who is editing and she has given a lot of positive feedback so far.  However, I'm talking more about someone who has no attachment to myself.  I don't have that as an option though.  So, I'm going with my gut...right or wrong.
> 
> I never go in half-way on anything.  I tend to jump in with both feet after checking how shallow the pool might be.  Sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes  not so much.  But, I never know if I don't try.
> 
> *hugs*
> Jayelle



Sure. What you're looking for is what is called "beta" readers, who will vet your manuscript. I use them. These are people who have no vested interest in the writer's success and are able to be impartial about the material. I'm certain that you could find them if you asked. This is a good place in which to do so. I'd do it.
Putting a piece of the actual book up as a teaser will also generate feedback, and that's helpful. You could use the workshop here for such also. There are many ways to skin that cat and get some sort of accurate measure of your manuscript's worth.
I'm not trying to discourage you--just being realistic. You have an idea of what you're about and what you want to do. That's great. Now let's see what we can do to make your dream happen.


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## jayelle_cochran

moderan said:


> Sure. What you're looking for is what is called "beta" readers, who will vet your manuscript. I use them. These are people who have no vested interest in the writer's success and are able to be impartial about the material. I'm certain that you could find them if you asked. This is a good place in which to do so. I'd do it.
> Putting a piece of the actual book up as a teaser will also generate feedback, and that's helpful. You could use the workshop here for such also. There are many ways to skin that cat and get some sort of accurate measure of your manuscript's worth.
> I'm not trying to discourage you--just being realistic. You have an idea of what you're about and what you want to do. That's great. Now let's see what we can do to make your dream happen.



Thanks luv.    I did put the first three chapters on here back in December and it was really well received (updating those posts when I edit those chapters).  A few people wrote me privately telling me that although I was planning on self-publishing, that I should consider traditional publishing because it was good enough.  I did want to find someone to beta read for me but don't know where on here to ask and I didn't want to randomly message people about it.  The novel is 38 chapters long, so posting every chapter on here would take forever (especially since I shouldn't do it all at once).  hmmmm....maybe I'll ask one of those who had written me privately.

I know you're trying to make sure I keep both feet on the ground and I really appreciate that.  We all need reality checks, especially when the topic is something we're passionate about.  I'm doing my best to keep myself grounded while also having the motivation and desire to push this forward.  

*hugs*
Jayelle


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## moderan

Sure. I've already said that I'd beta. And asking those who've shown interest is a fine idea. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.


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