# Addressing royalty



## sonosublime (Jan 15, 2019)

Hi all,

I'm trying to navigate the minefield of how to address royalty in my story. I'm using the English royalty/nobility as a base.

How would a king address the crown prince and princess? How would the prince and princess address their father/king?

How would the kings from different countries address each other?

How would princes and princesses from different countries address each other?

Help would be greatly appreciated. I've found sources on the internet, but they often seem to be missing information or just do not sound natural.


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## Arachne (Jan 15, 2019)

This depends largely on what era you are setting your story in? 

Arachne


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## sonosublime (Jan 15, 2019)

The Middle Ages. I know that spans a roughly 1000 yr period...

It's a fantasy, so some flexibility would be allowed, but I still want to ground it somewhat in reality.


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## Arachne (Jan 15, 2019)

There is little in the way of written documents for this period (part of the reason for the common name 'The Dark Ages'), which is what would be required for this information to be known, it's not something you can get from visual sources etc. Also it's hard to say how anyone spoke in private situations anyway.

You could use other periods as inspiration and to make the terms seem realistic. Try reading other novels set in the medieval period and maybe try novels set in the Tudor court, as it would give you a general feeling for the language used, which, with a bit of tweaking, should work fine for you purpose (assuming you're writing in modern English). 

If I were writing your novel I would perhaps use these terms - 

_How would a king address the crown prince and princess?_ In private, by there first names, pet names, or 'daughter' / 'son'. In official situations 'Princess first name' etc 

_How would the prince and princess address their father/king?_ 'My Lord', perhaps 'Father' in private if they are close. 

_How would the kings from different countries address each other? _'My Lord' 

_How would princes and princesses from different countries address each other?_ 'My Lord' and 'My Lady'

These are the terms I would probably use as I feel they would sound real enough for me, without jarring the flow of the writing (remember the real language used would be virtually incomprehensible to us anyway). However, if I would probably spend a significant amount of time researching if I were writing this. I'd start with a couple of good quality novels set in your period to give you a general feel for it, then look into more academic stuff from there. 

It sounds like a great project, good luck with it 

Arachne


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## CyberWar (Jan 16, 2019)

There's a pretty comprehensive list on Wikipedia as far as British nobility is concerned. It has changed little over the past millenium, being based in the Anglo-Norman tradition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forms_of_address_in_the_United_Kingdom

In private, I would suppose it would depend strongly on how close the people involved are. In the Middle Ages, even immediate family members among nobility would often act very distant and formal, children being raised by nannies and tutors and rarely meeting their parents under informal circumstances, let alone having any close personal relationship with them. So it would not be unusual for children to address their parents formally, using forms required by protocol. The opposite could also be true, family members and maybe close friends using personal or pet names in private, though everyone would still absolutely be expected to observe proper protocol in the presence of outsiders.


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## H.Brown (Jan 16, 2019)

Some of these links might be helpful or the may not be...

https://www.google.com/search?clien...0i67j0j0i10j0i13j0i13i30j33i10i21.5NIhKP7Laj0


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## Jack of all trades (Jan 16, 2019)

Maybe you can find interviews with current royals to gain some insight into modern practices.

I think one of them once said that there's rules for how to behave when with Mum and Dad, rules for when with other dignitaries, and rules for tea with Gran (the queen). 

I can't really see a royal calling another "my lord", because that's a submissive thing. Possibly they used King/Queen (last name) when formal, or first name when in a private setting. I think there would be emphasis on equality of stature. Unless war was on the horizon. Then ...I don't know.

Some well-to-do call their parents Father and Mother, so that might be true of royals. They might have closer relationships with their nannies! 

Just a few thoughts. Good luck with the project!


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## CyberWar (Jan 17, 2019)

"My Lord/Lady" isn't necessarily a show of submission. It may as well be simply a respectful acknowledgement of the other as a fellow noble. The intended context is usually obvious depending on the speaker uttering the phrase.

According to some sources, the deferential form used by servants and commoners when addressing nobility is "milord/milady".


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## Jack of all trades (Jan 17, 2019)

CyberWar said:


> "My Lord/Lady" isn't necessarily a show of submission. It may as well be simply a respectful acknowledgement of the other as a fellow noble. The intended context is usually obvious depending on the speaker uttering the phrase.
> 
> *According to some sources, the deferential form used by servants and commoners when addressing nobility is "milord/milady".*



Bolding mine. You made my point. It is used by those of lower classes addressing those of higher classes. It would not be used among equals.

OP, maybe you can get some ideas from the British series Merlin. I recall royals visiting the castle. And I bet they did some research to give it authenticity.


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## sonosublime (Jan 23, 2019)

Hi all,

Sorry for my late response, and thanks for your detailed and very helpful replies. That is all very good info.

In regards to Dukes and Earls, how exactly are they addressed? By their surnames or their dukedom/earldom province names?


And how do bows and curtsies come into the picture?


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## Jack of all trades (Jan 24, 2019)

sonosublime said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Sorry for my late response, and thanks for your detailed and very helpful replies. That is all very good info.
> 
> ...




Bows and curtsies are shows of submission. How deeply it is done depends on how low the one doing it is, relative to the recipient. The current queen of England does not do either. I think there's supposed to be gloves worn when shaking hands, too.

For dukes? Wasn't Princess Diana also a duchess? If so, Prince Charles is a duke. You can check how he is addressed.


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## Myk3y (Jan 25, 2019)

Jack of all trades said:


> Maybe you can find interviews with current royals to gain some insight into modern practices.
> 
> I think one of them once said that there's rules for how to behave when with Mum and Dad, rules for when with other dignitaries, and rules for tea with Gran (the queen).
> 
> ...



No it's not - it's a term of respect. That's exactly how royalty, knights, etc. address one another. It's the same for parliament and the high court. 'My lord' for a judge, 'the right honourable' between non-peer worthies, 'my honoured friend', etc.

And it varies very much by how well you know them, whether you are on friendly terms or merely professionally related.

For example, 'my dear Lady' as the subject of a familial relationship, an old friend, or someone you are hoping to get your leg over... 

A good source of contemporary info is in the Hansard dictation of the House of Lords.



Jack of all trades said:


> *Bows and curtsies are shows of submission*. How deeply it is done depends on how low the one doing it is, relative to the recipient. The current queen of England does not do either. I think there's supposed to be gloves worn when shaking hands, too.
> 
> For dukes? Wasn't Princess Diana also a duchess? If so, Prince Charles is a duke. You can check how he is addressed.



Again, no they're not. They are stylised forms of allegiance, through to worshipful or respectful gestures between peers. 

Two peers of equal rank can bow to each other as a gesture of respect.

Rank is complicated in European royalty. The queen's consort - Prince Philip, is also the Duke of Edinburgh, was Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark and has other titles. 

When he gave up his title as Prince of Greece and Denmark, the Queen made him a Duke, and when they married she signed letters patent making him a Prince of Britain.

With anyone in the British royal family, once you have used their title, you subsequently refer to them as Ma'am or Sir.

Somehow I get the impression you're not a Brit.


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## Jack of all trades (Jan 25, 2019)

Myk3y said:


> No it's not - it's a term of respect. That's exactly how royalty, knights, etc. address one another. It's the same for parliament and the high court. 'My lord' for a judge, 'the right honourable' between non-peer worthies, 'my honoured friend', etc.
> 
> And it varies very much by how well you know them, whether you are on friendly terms or merely professionally related.
> 
> ...



I can't find anything online that supports what you've said. I did find evidence that supports what I said, along with some other interesting links.

It seems that the degree of formality (and submission) depends on the relationship. The closer the blood ties, the less formal.



https://www.quora.com/How-do-English-royals-address-each-other

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120201211335AAoeSX5



http://www.google.com/url?q=https:/...EAe0QFggWMAI&usg=AOvVaw08PQZwf8jJmqbaKRnUmSm0

http://www.google.com/url?q=https:/...EAe0QFggbMAQ&usg=AOvVaw1Rjp9x-yd11PeZEjJdTqMa

http://www.google.com/url?q=https:/...EAe0QFggdMAU&usg=AOvVaw3oE0c8P2byokcStcrwopeq

http://www.google.com/url?q=https:/...EAe0QFgggMAY&usg=AOvVaw0TRYq-_oe2a0erJjHro5c-


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## Myk3y (Jan 25, 2019)

It's amazing what you can find if you set out to prove you're right. 

I'm not sure you've 'proved' anything much, except you're not a subject matter expert on European royalty.


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## sonosublime (Jan 25, 2019)

There's a lot of info, so I've had a go at compiling a little chart to try and make for easy reference:

Chart 1: royalty

Chart 2: nobility

There are blanks where I couldn't find any info. And the titles highlighted in yellow are ones I'm unsure of.

What do you all think, and do you have any suggestions for clearing up the yellow highlights in the reference charts?


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## Myk3y (Jan 25, 2019)

I think you're a) over-complicating it and b) wrong about much of it.

saying 'royalty' is like saying 'cats' - they are all different.

The Bourbons of France and the Castilians of Spain were completely different in terms of how they codified (or didn't) nobility compared to the various Germanic houses. 

Then you get into the difference between a Baron, Baronet, Duke, Marquis, Lord, Laird, Comte, Count, Sieur, Seigneur, and various and sundry princes and princesses... and which of them are Peers of the Realm and which aren't...

I feel you're veering into a world of pain.

If you are intending on writing an historically-accurate dialogue, you need to do more research than asking such a simple question.

Try reading Saint-Simon's diaries and Elizabeth Stuart, Queen of Bohemia's letters, as well as DeBrett's collection of state papers and letters, Napoleon's diaries, etc. they will give you a much cleared view of colloquial usage. (and if you don't know what DeBrett's is, I would say find a different subject).

In Europe, in the 'Latin' countries (France, Italy, Spain), king to king most often, even in formal address, called each other 'Cousin', because they were.


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## Jack of all trades (Jan 25, 2019)

Myk3y said:


> It's amazing what you can find if you set out to prove you're right.
> 
> I'm not sure you've 'proved' anything much, except you're not a subject matter expert on European royalty.



I was looking for evidence that supports your claim. And yet what I found supports mine. I'm sure, if it's so easy to find documentation suporting any claim, that you can provide a link to something that shows Queen Elizabeth curtseying to someone, or calling someone 'My Lord'. Something.

One of the links I provided talked about a very pregnant royal, I think Spanish, curtseying to Queen Elizabeth when visiting in England.

Maybe there's a set of rules for in the homeland versus on their soil. But I'd look to what the queen does for an idea of the traditions. The younger royals don't seem to follow traditions as closely.


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## sonosublime (Jan 25, 2019)

Myk3y said:


> I think you're a) over-complicating it and b) wrong about much of it.
> 
> saying 'royalty' is like saying 'cats' - they are all different.
> 
> ...



I get that, but that's why I was going for England as a base, rather than  other countries.

And I'm not looking to write historically accurate, but at least somewhat grounded in reality, rather than having a commoner address "King John", or "Duke Philip" etc.


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## PiP (Jan 25, 2019)

Why not just watch some films that are set in the middle ages
https://www.bfi.org.uk/news-opinion/news-bfi/lists/10-great-films-set-middle-ages
You may even find something on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqs37dQm3XM


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