# Plotting versus Free-forming.



## ViKtoricus (Nov 2, 2013)

Hi everyone.



I'm of the position that plotting is a waste of time... I really believe it. It's a part of my overall philosophy in life and from what I've read from other sources, such as Stephen King's On Writing, and this article: https://medium.com/a-writers-life/46235774681b   "Forget the outline"



But what about you? What do you think of this?


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## Sam (Nov 2, 2013)

It doesn't matter what I think. All that matters is what _you _think. 

This is one of the questions that does the rounds about as often as writer's block. Every time, the same opinions and generalisations get thrown out. Let me save you the trouble: use whatever works best for you and don't worry about anyone else. You're not someone else; you can't write like someone else; you can't think like someone else; so why would you concern yourself with what someone _else _is doing?


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## ViKtoricus (Nov 2, 2013)

I just wanna start a conversation about this topic. Not really looking for advice because I'm sticking with mine.


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## Kyle R (Nov 2, 2013)

Like Sam said, everyone has their own approach.

For me, plotting works best. I like to plan a specific character arc for my protagonist and that's something that I can't accomplish without knowing the path from beginning to end.

For me, writing without plotting is like trying to construct a building without an architect, or without a blueprint—I end up with staircases connected to the ceiling and upside-down doorways, electrical outlets connected to water pipes. Suffice to say, without a pre-planned structure, my writing ends up as a mess.

For some writers, though, a lack of plotting frees them up to write, and they're able to funnel their creativity in a desired direction.

In the end, all that matters (in my opinion) is that the final product is something you're happy with. How you get there varies from person to person.


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## Bard_Daniel (Nov 2, 2013)

KyleColorado said:


> For me, plotting works best. I like to plan a specific character arc for my protagonist and that's something that I can't accomplish without knowing the path from beginning to end.
> 
> For me, writing without plotting is like trying to construct a building without an architect, or without a blueprint—I end up with staircases connected to the ceiling and upside-down doorways, electrical outlets connected to water pipes. Suffice to say, without a pre-planned structure, my writing ends up as a mess.



I do the same. I used to write without anything, until I learned that a lot of the writers I liked plotted. 

That's a perfect analogy as well.

I find plotting can only ever help, never harm. You don't need to stick to it perfectly, it's like your map in the wilderness. It can help you get there much easier than stumbling off (Hemingway homage forthcoming...) across the river and into the trees.


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## Tan (Nov 2, 2013)

I used to never plot myself, but after I learned my idol plotted I started mapping everything out. It comes in handy for me having wiki like info on my characters and settings and stuff.


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## Outiboros (Nov 3, 2013)

I absolutely cannot write without plotting the story out to a certain degree. At the very least I need to have all the scenes of the beginning and the general direction of the end. I can fill in the middle just fine, but I need that framework.
It all depends on the writer. There's no right or wrong.


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## Gavrushka (Nov 3, 2013)

I just ramble away in the middle of a book until I reach the end or beginning, and fill the bits between that make most sense. The prospect of writing creatively to a predefined framework would crush me, but as everyone else has said, we all have to do what works best for us. 

There are no answers, only opinions.


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## Sam (Nov 3, 2013)

ViKtoricus said:


> I just wanna start a conversation about this topic. Not really looking for advice because I'm sticking with mine.



All due respect, Vik, but when you denigrate one aspect of something before asking for others' opinions on it, you're not looking to start a conversation. You're asking a loaded question that will get people's backs up and start a heated debate. Anywhere else, that might fly. Here, however, debates are not permitted. Something to keep in mind for future.


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## Olly Buckle (Nov 3, 2013)

My first draft is in effect a form of plotting. Kyle is probably right and I could save myself a lot of work, but I tend to go about things in real life the same way, I think 'If my stove fed from outside I wouldn't get all this ash and mess from the fuel inside', so I rip out a bit of wall, turn the stove and try it. Then I discover all the disadvantages, rip it all out again and try a different configuration taking account of them, after about the third go it starts to work quite well. I can avoid the obvious stuff, like staircases that end in blank walls, but there is usually a lot of stuff that I simply wouldn't think of until I have done it 'wrong'.

The planning I use most frequently is in sentence structure. If a sentence feels awkward I define the ideas contained in it, quite often it is simply a case of reconfiguring them into a better order.


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## The Tourist (Nov 3, 2013)

Sam said:


> but when you denigrate one aspect of something before asking for others' opinions on it, you're not looking to start a conversation. You're asking a loaded question.



Sam, this is where all this gray hair might just have some value.

There are good reasons to do both--but also the practical value of knowing when.

Frankly, I've seen stories where writers use any whim and shift in mood to craft a plot.  It usually results in continuity issues, characters acting strangely outside their overall arc, and meandering, flowery descriptions more akin to a video game "walk through."

Heck, you plan a date, you plan an oil change, you plan a colonoscopy.  Plan your book.

Having said that, there's a very good reason not to plan.  (And even that has limits and parameters).  Let's suppose I wanted to pen a poem, the main thrust being a personal and visceral experience.  I can see where the first honest, unstructured depiction allowing raw emotions to creep to the surface would be more moving than sanitizing it during re-writes.


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## J Anfinson (Nov 3, 2013)

I've come to the conclusion that planning the bare minimum, a skeleton I can be excited to flesh out, works best for me. I can't plan it out too much or I get bored with the lack of flexibility. I need structure, but I also need to be able to keep it fresh and exciting. Your milage may vary.


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## voltigeur (Nov 3, 2013)

With my current WIP I have to plot, plot and plot some more.  I have 4 story lines happening all over the world and characters whose actions affect other characters even though they don’t come in contact with each other.  There is no way I can do this flying by the seat of my pants. If I was doing something lighter and simple then I may still have beginning middle and end mapped out but no where near the detail of my current WIP. 

This is an each unto their own issue. I was at a live event where this was discussed and the bottom line is that free form is more fun for any people but there is a lot of hard work at the end crafting the story to be readable (and publishable).  Those that plot do a lot of work crafting the structure of the story on the front end but when finished needs very little work to make it readable (and publishable). My take was either way crafting the work, is hard work and the only choice is do you do it on the front end or on the back end. 

It is your choice; the only wrong way is keep doing something that doesn’t work for you.


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## Mutimir (Nov 3, 2013)

Why do you think it's a waste of time? If anything it saves time. Time is money.


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## The Tourist (Nov 3, 2013)

J Anfinson said:


> I've come to the conclusion that planning the bare minimum, a skeleton I can be excited to flesh out, works best for me. I can't plan it out too much or I get bored with the lack of flexibility. I need structure, but I also need to be able to keep it fresh and exciting. Your milage may vary.



I sounds good in theory, but fails in reality.  Let me explain.

As you might know, my "adult job" was saving corporations circling the drain.  The job concept was known as a "hatchet man" in the 1950s, and folks wanted to change that.  Just like any pendulum, they swung too far and made the job title tantamount to being a biscuit short of a gay pride parade.

Anyhoo, it launched a procedure called "fishboning."  We would actually go to a CEO client's blackboard and draw fishbones, hold hands, sing Kumbaya and try to keep 300 employees from starving to death.

The problem was that a guy who marched into quicksand was the last person to instruct himself on how to march out.  

If we could generalize here, most of us have limited real world literary accomplishments.  A successful writer with a body of work, a few books, a publisher who actually returns calls and enough disposable income to buy top-notch artwork for book covers doesn't need guidance.  Even if he's dead wrong on most fronts he's found a formula and he produces.

We do not have that.  We're the last guys on the planet who should "wing it."  We need mentors, betas, and color-by-numbers Thesaurus editions--in Braille.  In short, we need all the help we can get, and admitting it is the first big hurdle.

My guess is that a guy who claims he doesn't need a structure probably doesn't know how to write one of those, either.


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## Sam (Nov 3, 2013)

You have to write an outline. _That _takes time. Whereas a pantser starts at chapter one and gets on with it.


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## Olly Buckle (Nov 3, 2013)

I think that is hasty, Tourist, let me explain why.

You are dead right,we are a mixture of beginners and second raters compared to the professionals with resources, but just as they can be dead wrong on some fronts but still have a winning formula some of us may not have a winning formula, but can be very capable on some fronts. Look at you, I know you didn't like the way I broke down how you constructed an argument, I still think it is clever in its way and you are good at it, that aside anyone who comes up with phrases like 'color-by-numbers thesaurus editions --- in Braille.' or 'a biscuit short of a gay pride parade.' has something going for them. Now I am wondering what that job title was, I bet no-one called you by it often 

He is entitled to be good at one thing.


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## Gavrushka (Nov 3, 2013)

voltigeur said:


> With my current WIP I have to plot, plot and plot some more.  I have 4 story lines happening all over the world and characters whose actions affect other characters even though they don’t come in contact with each other.  *There is no way I can do this flying by the seat of my pants. If I was doing something lighter and simple then I may still have beginning middle and end mapped out but no where near the detail of my current WIP. *
> 
> This is an each unto their own issue. I was at a live event where this was discussed and the bottom line is that *free form is more fun for any people but there is a lot of hard work at the end crafting the story to be readable (and publishable)*.  Those that plot do a lot of work crafting the structure of the story on the front end but when finished needs very little work to make it readable (and publishable). *My take was either way crafting the work, is hard work and the only choice is do you do it on the front end or on the back end. *
> 
> It is your choice; the only wrong way is keep doing something that doesn’t work for you.




I don't think it follows that you must plot to create an intricate piece of prose (if that was what you were saying). In my first story, I had many threads interlaced, kept a timeline as I went along and made checks whenever something in one thread could pollute another. 

-So I would agree that the lack of a structured plot in advance means that errors and continuities can well propagate backwards into a story, and need correcting, but I tend to handle those as they occur, rather than leaving it for another draft.

As regards background work, I find that research is a huge draw on my time, but not the corrections that plot-free writing necessitate. - They're tiny oopses that take seconds to correct, but I recognise if I left them, they could compound.

I guess I feel I have no choice other than to write the way I do, but I am sure my first drafts aren't any rougher than any other persons of similar ability to me, whether they plot or not.


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## The Tourist (Nov 3, 2013)

Sam and Olly, by the very nature of a forum, we generalize.  But having said that, I don't think this is a case where "the white crow gambit" is a proper rebuttal.  I need to explain that, too.

One of the best baseball players bats "cross handed."  For him it works, but for every kid who never played the game, you need to stress the fundamentals.  I think most of us align more with the kids than the pros.  We don't know the rules well enough to break them.

Here's a funny example.  The bikes I ride have protrusions at the end of the pegs.  We used to call them "warning nipples."  I get mine replaced quite often.  A kid at the shop bragged that he rode so hard he had ground his completely off.  The graybeards laughed.  One offered a bit of sage wisdom.

He said, "Kid, you know what you call a worn out warning nipple?"  The kid shook his head to the negative.

"Well," the old biker waxed, "We just call it a nipple, because all of the 'warning' is gone..."

You'll notice the old guys were all still alive and there was only this one kid.  I'm sure one of the "white crows" here will sell a book or get a screenplay.  There are millions of would-be authors on the "www" and one of them will beat the odds.  But my sincere belief is a guy with gray in his hair, a drawer full of rejection slips and Braille Thesaurus will always outdo dumb luck.

I advise you write the outline and ask a metric ton of questions.


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## Gavrushka (Nov 3, 2013)

Sam said:


> You have to write an outline. _That _takes time. Whereas a *pantser* starts at chapter one and gets on with it.




LOL! I think in the UK, you'd get a custodial sentence for being one of those.

I've never heard the phrase before, but I do like it.


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## squidtender (Nov 3, 2013)

Seems like every time I outline, I end up getting bored or frustrated with the story. So, I just go for my plot points and pants the rest.


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## Bilston Blue (Nov 3, 2013)

> and from what I've read from other sources, such as Stephen King's On Writing,



I'd take everything King says or writes about the process of writing with a pinch of salt. You can't expect him to write thousand page novels with outlining? 

King spent thirty years writing bestsellers whilst off his face on booze, cocaine, and other substances. This might be argued as a considerable achievement, and I'd agree, but it kind of makes him unreliable insofar as his memories and his motivations for saying certain things are concerned. If you read every interview since his career began which mentions the craft of writing, I'd be surprised if you found any great consistency.

Don't get me wrong here, I think he's a great storyteller, but you'd likely find the only consistent thing about his writing is that it sells by the sackful.

As for the subject, as others have said, each to their own. Find out what works and what doesn't and get on and write. These discussions are a guiltless procrastination. Guiltless because you're concerning yourself with writing matters, but it doesn't get the job done. It's okay if limited, but eventually you've got to write the hard words, and how you do so doesn't matter.


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## The Tourist (Nov 3, 2013)

Bilston Blue said:


> It's okay if limited, but eventually you've got to write the hard words, and how you do so doesn't matter.



I'd like to agree, but that's only because writing is a safe hobby that doesn't require shoulder pads and a helmet.

This would be lousy advice if the topic was learning to fly jet aircraft.

But isn't listening once better than making twenty stupid mistakes?  Even Picasso had to learn how to mix paint and clean brushes.


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## Sam (Nov 3, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Sam and Olly, by the very nature of a forum, we generalize.  But having said that, I don't think this is a case where "the white crow gambit" is a proper rebuttal.  I need to explain that, too.
> 
> One of the best baseball players bats "cross handed."  For him it works, but for every kid who never played the game, you need to stress the fundamentals.  I think most of us align more with the kids than the pros.  We don't know the rules well enough to break them.
> 
> ...



I'd advise you to find what works best for you. I've been published (once traditionally, twice out of my own pocket) and have written a handful of novels without ever once penning an outline. I've written over forty academic essays (two of which were published in the university's periodical) of 3,000 words without outlining. I've written two dozen articles for both this site and one other writing forum's newsletter without outlining. I've written a 15,000-word dissertation without outlining. In fact, every time I've ever put pen to paper or fingers to keyboard, I've done so bereft of an outline. 

It hasn't steered me too wrong.


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## The Tourist (Nov 3, 2013)

Sam said:


> It hasn't steered me too wrong.



But Sam, I'll bet you do a whole lotta other stuff right.

Do you do research?  Do you spell check?  Will you search out the correct word or just slap on the first buzzword you find in the newspaper?  Do you read and study?  Have you taken classes in writing, lit and English?  Do you send your publisher the initial rough draft, or a perfected copy, in itself a compilation of dozens of re-writes.  Can we see your long distance phone bills going out to the betas?

Navy SEALs survive because of a number of factors.  Playing with toy soldiers isn't the main reason.  They do everything right, everything appropriate.  Kidding aside, you wouldn't have the credentials you do if your success was haphazard and cavalier.


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## Terry D (Nov 3, 2013)

The only way to know which works for you is try. The right way is the way which gets you a completed novel you are happy with (whatever that means to the individual involved). I've followed King's career since it began, and his stance on plotting has never wavered. If necessary he will research topics, but the plot is always organic. Of course in his novel _11/22/63_ the plot's skeleton is a matter of history.

I use a process I call--as of this moment--Outline Lite; a series of one or two sentence scene sketches arranged in a very loose chronological order. The timeline usually stops about mid-book and from that point on the story takes over completely. My books have many characters and multiple points of view. Getting lost has never been a problem. But that's just the way my brain is wired. The only thing I know for sure is that you can absolutely ignore anyone who tries to tell you that there is only one way to get it done.


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## Bilston Blue (Nov 3, 2013)

@The Tourist: people with an ability to learn can also learn from mistakes. I teach people to drive. If I let someone stall the engine whilst in the middle of a busy, light-controlled crossroads, they tend not to do so again. If they complete a reverse manouevre without looking behind them, I tell them bluntly they just hit a small child, so in future they check behind. If they stop sharply on a late-changing traffic light without checking their mirror, and find a 24-wheeled truck behind them, they tend to check mirrors before braking sharply in the future. But if I tell them they must do these thing before the situation occurs, it means little or nothing, it's only theory, it's only words and what ifs and buts. Many people learn from mistakes because they see how a different method might work better than that which led to the the mistake or, in my analogy, the potential accident.

Of course, learning to fly a jet plane is taking things to the extreme, but still, are you telling me no trainee pilot has ever missed the runway on a simulator?


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## Gavrushka (Nov 3, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> But Sam, I'll bet you do a whole lotta other stuff right.
> 
> Do you do research?  Do you spell check?  Will you search out the correct word or just slap on the first buzzword you find in the newspaper?  Do you read and study?  Have you taken classes in writing, lit and English?  Do you send your publisher the initial rough draft, or a perfected copy, in itself a compilation of dozens of re-writes.  Can we see your long distance phone bills going out to the betas?
> 
> Navy SEALs survive because of a number of factors.  Playing with toy soldiers isn't the main reason.  They do everything right, everything appropriate.  Kidding aside, you wouldn't have the credentials you do if your success was haphazard and cavalier.




I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here. Plotting is outlining your story in advance, which is separate to research, spell-checking and all the rest of it!

I can't plot (I have tried) but I always research, spell check and consider the composition of every sentence and paragraph as I write it.

Pantsy ) ) writing does not preclude any of the other elements writers employ.


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## The Tourist (Nov 3, 2013)

Bilston Blue said:


> Of course, learning to fly a jet plane is taking things to the extreme, but still, are you telling me no trainee pilot has ever missed the runway on a *simulator*?



On a simulator they're alive.  My driving education was, _"Hey, you dumb kid, this is a Harley-Davidson, that's the clutch--don't hit anything expensive!"_

Clearly, we know better now.  Taken to the logical conclusion, let's contact the owner of this forum and tell him to shut it down, and use the money he saves to invest in commodities, or other necessities like tequila and dancing girls.

If upcoming newbies can find success despite crashing planes and wasting decades writing substandard novels, then why do they ultimately need mentors at all?


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## Terry D (Nov 3, 2013)

We're not talking about a job here where lives are at stake. We are talking about an art, or a craft, which requires practice, experimentation, and failure to hone. And, we've allowed the thread to drift far away from the topic of outlining. It's probably time to take it back.

The OP states that he doesn't plan to use an outline; fine, the book will get written, or it will not. Either way he will learn from it--and the only crash and burn will be metaphorical.


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## Sam (Nov 3, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> But Sam, I'll bet you do a whole lotta other stuff right.
> 
> Do you do research?  Do you spell check?  Will you search out the correct word or just slap on the first buzzword you find in the newspaper?  Do you read and study?  Have you taken classes in writing, lit and English?  Do you send your publisher the initial rough draft, or a perfected copy, in itself a compilation of dozens of re-writes.  Can we see your long distance phone bills going out to the betas?



My novels are often 60% writing and 40% research, but it's done on a case-by-case basis. When I come on a scene that requires further reading, I suspend writing and do my research. It may take an hour, a day, or a week, but once it's done it's back to the story . . . until the next scene requires further study. 

I don't spell check because I don't need to. At the risk of sounding cocky, I have an insane memory for words. Whenever I visit my parents, I cannot be in the same room as my mother when she's doing a crossword because she tends to read the clues aloud and I'll give her the answers. She often consults me and not the dictionary when she wants to know how to spell a word. I'll often enrage her by asking, "In U.S. or U.K. English?" As for searching out words: the right word comes to me as I write. If it doesn't readily make itself available, I leave it and come back later on with a fresh mind. People ask me how I do it, and the answer is always the same: "I read the dictionary". 

I have a BA in English literature and I'm halfway through my MA. I've never taken a creative writing class. I don't put much stock in them, insofar as I feel that anything that can be learned in a class can be learned much quicker by reading widely. 

I don't do rewrites. I do extensive editing, yes, and I have beta-readers. That said, I feel that none of this has any relevance to outlining. When I started writing, I jumped head-first into a novel and got to work. There are those who have been pilloried in the past for suggesting something similar, but it worked for me. I went in with no expectations, no grand plan, and wrote a novel without worrying about _anything. _Then another two followed it, before I realised I had a passion for the written word. My advice is to write a novel each way and find out which technique works best for you. Everything else is just meaningless platitudes, because _no one _can tell you how to write for _you. _


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## Kyle R (Nov 3, 2013)

squidtender said:


> Seems like every time I outline, I end up getting bored or frustrated with the story. So, I just go for my plot points and pants the rest.



I'd say that qualifies as outlining, Randy. 

Pantsing, to me, (or at least, when I've done it) is like sitting down at the computer and saying to yourself, "Okay, what shall I write about today? Hmm.. I'll start with a guy named.. Jack. Okay. Here goes!"

_Jack pressed his hands to his forehead and looked out through the rain. . .

_I suppose there are different level of pantsing and plotting. Hybrids of both, maybe, and everything in between.


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## Bilston Blue (Nov 3, 2013)

I'm trying to "pants" a 650 word piece of flash for the LM right now, and just can't do it. On a piece so short I at least need to know where it begins and where it ends. Without that I'm struggling. 

So I thought I'd come here to post that because "pantsing" is making me want to procrastinate. Maybe I'll figure out the story before writing. Here goes...


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## Morkonan (Nov 3, 2013)

ViKtoricus said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think you're paying much to much attention to what someone's name is and not enough to what they're actually saying.

I didn't read the entire article, just the first few lines. Look, did you read it? Really? What in the heck did it say in the first few lines?

You need to stop thinking that your inspirational moments contain all the truth that there is to be found and, instead, start using those moments to make yourself think.


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## Gavrushka (Nov 3, 2013)

Bilston Blue said:


> I'm trying to "pants" a 650 word piece of flash for the LM right now, and just can't do it. On a piece so short I at least need to know where it begins and where it ends. Without that I'm struggling.
> 
> So I thought I'd come here to post that because "pantsing" is making me want to procrastinate. Maybe I'll figure out the story before writing. Here goes...



I've just puked out 650 words for the competition, but calling it rough would be kind. I can't even perceive of a way I could plan it in advance. Perhaps our brains need to be wired in a different way to plan/pantificate.


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## Morkonan (Nov 3, 2013)

Gavrushka said:


> I've just puked out 650 words for the competition, but calling it rough would be kind. I can't even perceive of a way I could plan it in advance. Perhaps our brains need to be wired in a different way to plan/pantificate.



You plan as you go, whether you know it or not. At least, you should. Little of what anyone writes is completely spontaneous, is it? You're not just writing words that come to mind at the time your hands are pumping away at the keyboard, are you? No, you're writing with some sort of cohesive goal, even if its just for the moment. In that writing, you're constructing something purposefully.

That's what it is all about, in my opinion - Purposeful Construction. 

You might night need to Outline and Plot in order to do it, but just because you don't Outline and Plot, doesn't mean you don't actually write purposefully.


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## Gavrushka (Nov 3, 2013)

Morkonan said:


> You plan as you go, whether you know it or not. At least, you should. Little of what anyone writes is completely spontaneous, is it? You're not just writing words that come to mind at the time your hands are pumping away at the keyboard, are you? No, you're writing with some sort of cohesive goal, even if its just for the moment. In that writing, you're constructing something purposefully.
> 
> That's what it is all about, in my opinion - Purposeful Construction.
> 
> You might night need to Outline and Plot in order to do it, but just because you don't Outline and Plot, doesn't mean you don't actually write purposefully.



I guess there has to be a lot going on below the surface, and sometimes a mid-distant thought does come that steers me towards an event, a page or two before it happens, but dialogue is often spontaneous. - It does make me worry for my mental well-being sometimes, especially when a character in my story tells me a joke I've never heard before! :suspicion:


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## The Tourist (Nov 3, 2013)

Sam, I'm glad you responded.  I think you set the tone needed.  In other words, be creative but seek excellence.  But every beta, mentor and self-help guru would be out of work if people wrote like you did!:wink2:


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## Sam (Nov 3, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Sam, I'm glad you responded.  I think you set the tone needed.  In other words, be creative but seek excellence.  But every beta, mentor and self-help guru would be out of work if people wrote like you did!:wink2:



Paradoxically, if more people wrote like me, there wouldn't be need for forums like this one.  I'd written half a dozen novels before I even knew what the Internet was. I had a dial-up modem for years (joys of living in the countryside in the middle of nowhere) and it was too much hassle to try to surf the Web for any great length of time. So I learned to write by doing two things: reading the books of the masters, and writing. That's the reason why I strongly advocate just getting on with it and letting the chips fall where they may. You'll learn by making mistakes -- and that's true of all professions.


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## The Tourist (Nov 3, 2013)

Sam said:


> You'll learn by making mistakes -- and that's true of all professions.



*sigh*  In my case, it's the sad but true way to success.

But like all older guys, there's a part of me that wishes I could ease the blow for those just coming up.  Like yourself, I never had a computer for research.  I had already lived in this burg for almost 20 years before our city library was built, and we got a computer lab.  Wow, did that open up the world!

I like to think I got the best of both generations.  I remember the classics being taught.  I remember theme papers, and creative writing classes--I even signed up for voluntary summer school programs to write.  It was a good, solid foundation for the innovations we now use.


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## shadowwalker (Nov 3, 2013)

I don't outline, I don't make plot points, I just have an idea or a character and I start telling a story. The only story I outlined I still haven't finished. Another outlandish thing I do is edit/revise as I go. No drafts - when I finish the story, other than polishing, it's finished.

This works for me. It works for a lot of writers - and yes, successfully published ones. But it won't work for everybody. The only method that always works is the method that ends with a finished manuscript.


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## ViKtoricus (Nov 3, 2013)

Sam said:


> All due respect, Vik, but when you denigrate one aspect of something before asking for others' opinions on it, you're not looking to start a conversation. You're asking a loaded question that will get people's backs up and start a heated debate. Anywhere else, that might fly. Here, however, debates are not permitted. Something to keep in mind for future.





Understood. Sorry.

- - - Updated - - -



Sam said:


> All due respect, Vik, but when you denigrate one aspect of something before asking for others' opinions on it, you're not looking to start a conversation. You're asking a loaded question that will get people's backs up and start a heated debate. Anywhere else, that might fly. Here, however, debates are not permitted. Something to keep in mind for future.





Understood. Sorry.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Nov 4, 2013)

the linked article said:
			
		

> The nice thing about an outline is that it gives you a direction. The bad thing about an outline is that it limits your novel’s possibilities.



I've yet to find a satisfactory reason that people believe this.  It comes down to a false dichotomy - either you outline, which means every single paragraph has at least a dozen bullet points dedicated to it, or you don't, which means you have no idea where your story is going until you've written "THE END."

Why does an outline limit your novel's possibilities? You're not chiseling the outline into granite tablets, and erasers do exist.  Beyond that, one rarely starts outlining until after they've been brainstorming.  Writing down your favorite idea of dozens in an outline is no different from writing it directly into your novel.  If anything, it leaves you more free to change things.

As for you, Vik, with all due respect, you haven't WRITTEN anything.  You don't get to have a writing philosophy until you've actually put in the work and have the experience to make judgments.  "My favorite author told me this so there can be no other way," is not a sound argument, and there are many writers here with finished novels (myself included) who would strongly disagree with your assertion that plotting and outlining are wastes of time.


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## The Tourist (Nov 4, 2013)

Anybody that doesn't rely on some form of projected plan has not done any home repairs.

At our old house we had a garage disposal crap out.  I used to be a bike mechanic, I still had all of my tools, and I remember saying to myself, _"Myself, how hard can this be?"_

Three trips to the hardware store later...

This isn't all feast or famine.  You don't have to develop a separate blood type for each characters' backstory.  But I'd rather have a life jacket and not need it than to need a life jacket and not have it.  

What's the harm in sitting back with a crystal clear tumbler of Don Julio and sketching out a plot?


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## Gavrushka (Nov 4, 2013)

I do love your analogies, The Tourist. 

I can do home repairs. I can do one arm press ups. I can cook a Sunday lunch...

...But I can't plot! 

*EDIT*

I tried plotting out my next competition entry, 'The Space In Between' but I can't help but diverge from what I had planned - The problem with that, is that a small divergence then grows with time and makes the initial planning pointless. - I feel more assured than ever that, for me, a plan is a straitjacket, squeezing the life out of creativity.


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## bookmasta (Nov 4, 2013)

Typically my plotted stories tend to be shorter and to the point from beginning to end. The ones I just go with, like my Wip right now, tend to be longer and have more layers to them


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## shadowwalker (Nov 5, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Anybody that doesn't rely on some form of projected plan has not done any home repairs.



I don't rely on some form of plan and I've done plenty of home repairs. Two different projects, two different methods.



The Tourist said:


> What's the harm in sitting back with a crystal clear tumbler of Don Julio and sketching out a plot?



What's the harm in just writing the story?

I don't outline because once I've done that, I've told the story (even in its barest form) and then I'm done. Now I'm faced with re-writing the thing. BOOOOOORING. I'd rather have the fun and excitement of discovering the story as it comes. But that's how it is for _me_. I would never presume to tell someone else they have to or should write like I do - and I don't see why plotters continually tell me I'm doing it wrong. I complete my stories, they make sense, they entertain, people like them - so what, exactly, is wrong about my method? I don't think I'll ever figure that out.


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## Sam (Nov 5, 2013)

Cease the personal comments and get this thread back on topic _now. _Anyone who disregards this warning will find themselves with a time-out from the site.


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## Bilston Blue (Nov 5, 2013)

> I don't outline because once I've done that, I've told the story (even in its barest form) and then I'm done. Now I'm faced with re-writing the thing. BOOOOOORING. I'd rather have the fun and excitement of discovering the story as it comes.



I found, during my one stalled attempt at writing something novel length, that my experience was similar to this. I did much detailed planning to figure out characters' histories, family background, etc., but couldn't bring myself to plan the whole thing. I started down that path but actually thought, "I'm telling the story to myself, here, what's the point?"

As ideas presented themselves during the writing, I'd make notes copiously, but never so structured as to define in a strict fashion the path the story should take. I know roughly how/where the story ends, but still to this day, with the draft half-finished, have no idea the course it'll take towards its conclusion.

I suppose this is a kind of compromise. To plan in too much detail would, I think, make me feel like a personal assistant, like somebody's giving me notes to copy out into something legible.


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## Jeko (Nov 5, 2013)

> _I don't outline because once I've done that, I've told the story (even in its barest form) and then I'm done._



I concur. 

I guess it comes down to why you tell stories, and how you put them together microscopically in your head, that decides whether you would benefit from planning and/or outlining.  Ultimately, my aim as I draft is to tell the story as clearly as possible; hence, I like to know what's going to happen before I write it. But I never write it down, in any way, until I'm writing it down for the draft.


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## Gavrushka (Nov 5, 2013)

You know, I'm 24,000 words into a new story, and I'd be horrified if I knew where it was leading. - I have the privilege of being the first reader of words when the ink is still wet on the page. I get to chuckle at the humour, or share the pain when the protagonist loses a love one. - Would I like someone to hand me the mother of all spoilers? No way! I deny thee, foul plot. Get back into the darkness and reveal thyself no more.


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## Newman (Nov 5, 2013)

If anyone's interested, the writers of _Looper_, _50 Shades _and some other films discuss outlining in episode 115 of this podcast.

Some do, some don't. What's missing from the discussion, however, is that, no matter how it starts, it all comes together in the later rewrites.



shadowwalker said:


> Now I'm faced with re-writing the thing. BOOOOOORING. I'd rather have the fun and excitement of discovering the story as it comes.



But you'll have to rewrite anyway. Unless you're saying that your first draft is always perfect.


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## Tettsuo (Nov 5, 2013)

It's baffling to me how anyone can write a story and not know how it ends.

Each writer is truly very different.

Diversity is awesome.


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## Kevin (Nov 5, 2013)

> It's baffling to me how anyone can write a story and not know how it ends.


 In a way it kind of sucks...because you don't know if you'll be able to finish it, but then you just have to go with it, which is kind of exciting.


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## Sam (Nov 5, 2013)

Newman said:


> But you'll have to rewrite anyway. Unless you're saying that your first draft is always perfect.



You don't have to rewrite; you have to _edit. _Hell of a difference. 

When will people get it through their heads? First drafts *do not have to be crap.*


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## Jeko (Nov 5, 2013)

> First drafts *do not have to be crap.*



I guess they're crappier than the finished product, usually. That's why we edit in the first place.


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## Kyle R (Nov 5, 2013)

Bilston Blue said:


> I found, during my one stalled attempt at writing something novel length, that my experience was similar to this. I did much detailed planning to figure out characters' histories, family background, etc., but couldn't bring myself to plan the whole thing. I started down that path but actually thought, "I'm telling the story to myself, here, what's the point?"
> 
> As ideas presented themselves during the writing, I'd make notes copiously, but never so structured as to define in a strict fashion the path the story should take. I know roughly how/where the story ends, but still to this day, with the draft half-finished, have no idea the course it'll take towards its conclusion.
> 
> I suppose this is a kind of compromise. To plan in too much detail would, I think, make me feel like a personal assistant, like somebody's giving me notes to copy out into something legible.



I can appreciate that. For a lot of people, plotting seems counterproductive. "Why outline a story and take all the fun, the surprise, the suspense, the creativity out of it?"

I think, for me, the answer to that question is: Because I (nowadays) treat my writing like a job, not a hobby.

Having fun or being creatively free while writing isn't my priority. It used to be, and when that was the case, I despised plotting as well. I felt it stifled my enjoyment and my creativity, by boxing me in.

Now, my priority is crafting a sellable story. Whether or not I have fun or am inspired along the way is kind of irrelevant to me. It'd be a definite bonus, yes, but the ultimate goal is reaching "The End", polishing everything, and then receiving a paycheck for it.

In order to know that my product will be marketable and worth the time invested, I have to plot it out. (That's just me though.)

Does that mean my writing, using a predefined plot, is boring, lacking in fun, or uncreative? I don't think so, but I can see how others can feel that way.

For me, I create an outline with every scene listed in chronological order. I identify the goal of each scene, and the outcome. It's kind of like a "Connect the Dots" route that I've created.

But I leave the setting, the internalization, and the conflict open-ended. These things I create while writing each scene, and those things keep me inspired and feeling creative, so the job of writing doesn't feel like I'm being completely boxed in. Knowing the purpose of each scene also frees me up creatively to know that, when the scene is done, it will fit perfectly into the overall structure like a well-cut puzzle piece.

Knowing that the plot is already structured as a whole frees me up because I'm assured that when I reach the end, I'll be completely happy with the story on a macro-level. Only the micro-level prose will be something to look over.

So, I guess for me, when I hear people stating that plotting "takes the fun" out of the writing, I can definitely relate, because I used to feel the same way, too. At the same time, though, were I to say that nowadays, I'd be asking myself, "Are you writing for _fun_, or for a _living_?" Because I think they are two different things entirely.

Ideally, they would go hand in hand. But sometimes, approaching writing as a hobby, or as a job, entails different approaches. Sometimes you need to know the product will be viable before investing time and resources in it.

Deadlines play a role, too.

(I'm not trying to put down those who dislike plotting. Just trying to explain my perspective.) :encouragement:


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## Gamer_2k4 (Nov 5, 2013)

Tettsuo said:


> It's baffling to me how anyone can write a story and not know how it ends.
> 
> Each writer is truly very different.
> 
> Diversity is awesome.



I wonder if it's an argument for and against "writing for its art"? For example, I don't like writing.  Never have, probably never will.  I hear people talk about having written hundreds of short stories and having dozens of started and scrapped drafts, and I don't understand it.  Why would you do that to yourself? Why would you put in so much effort for so little reward?

That's why I plot.  I write, not because I enjoy writing, but because I enjoy creating.  I love reading what I've written, but the actual process of getting to that point isn't as pleasant.  I plot and outline obsessively so I only need to do it once.


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## Sam (Nov 5, 2013)

I treat writing as a job as well and I don't plot. Horses for courses.


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## Jeko (Nov 5, 2013)

> Why would you put in so much effort for so little reward?



I thought that was the meaning of life. 

Anyway, I do it so much because it means I get better at it, and hence means I will eventually be paid for doing it.


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## Tettsuo (Nov 5, 2013)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> I wonder if it's an argument for and against "writing for its art"? For example, I don't like writing.  Never have, probably never will.  I hear people talk about having written hundreds of short stories and having dozens of started and scrapped drafts, and I don't understand it.  Why would you do that to yourself? Why would you put in so much effort for so little reward?
> 
> That's why I plot.  I write, not because I enjoy writing, but because I enjoy creating.  I love reading what I've written, but the actual process of getting to that point isn't as pleasant.  I plot and outline obsessively so I only need to do it once.


I get what you're saying.

Like all art, the medium used can be both a hindrance and a benefit.  The art of writing is the use of symbols to express a feeling, scene, person, time, idea, etc.  It takes time to craft these symbols into the idea we wish to convey.  By the very nature of what we do, there's a HUGE obstacle... the symbols themselves.  Many of us spend years narrowing the scope of what these symbols can be interrupted as, so they can mean something specific (or a set of specific things).

It can be tiresome to craft these symbols into meaningful ideas, and at the same time, exciting as the ideas begin to show themselves and take a life of their own.

So I find it utterly amazing anyone can shape these symbols and express something that is complete without first knowing what they're going to be expressing.

So here's my questions for the pantsers.

1 - Do you have a theme before you write or do you develop a theme along the way?
2 - Do you get stuck trying to resolve conflicts?
3 - How do you know when the story ends?
4 - How do you figure out complex plots and concepts without having a clue as to what you're plots and concepts are going to be?
5 - How do you develop your characters without knowing who they are?  Are they simply "deus ex machina" creations?  If so, how do you make them whole people?


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## Sam (Nov 5, 2013)

Tettsuo said:


> 1 - Do you have a theme before you write or do you develop a theme along the way?



The 'theme' develops itself as the story grows from opening to denouement. Often, the genre already takes care of that. 



> 2 - Do you get stuck trying to resolve conflicts?



Do you think that pantsers arbitrarily write anything that comes into their head? I'm not attacking you, but merely curious. If our MC arrives at a building in chapter five, we're not going to have him/her suddenly sitting in the middle of a park in chapter six. Everything follows logically and linearly from what has come before. Once you've decided on an idea for chapter one, it stands to reason that the story develops from there. 



> 3 - How do you know when the story ends?



When I write the words 'The End', and when everything has been resolved. 



> 4 - How do you figure out complex plots and concepts without having a clue as to what you're plots and concepts are going to be?



How do you figure out complex plots and concepts when you're planning? You _create _them. We're just doing that on the fly. 



> 5 - How do you develop your characters without knowing who they are?  Are they simply "deus ex machina" creations?  If so, how do you make them whole people?



Again, how do you develop characters when you're plotting? By _creating _them and going through the progression you want to see them achieve. We just do all of it on the fly.


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## voltigeur (Nov 6, 2013)

I am learning so many things as I work through my WIP. One idea that I have learned about literally last week that can help with using a story board to lay out story lines. 

The Author that told me about this describes herself as a panster that writes scenes and does not write beginning to end. 

What she does is get a piece of foam board and a pack of Post It notes. As she writes each scene she plugs them on the board where she thinks they fit. If a better idea comes along then simply move the scenes and rearrange things. 

I thought I would share it because it shows that even plotting can have tremendous flexibility. 

The bottom line is: Pantster or Plotter depends on how your brain works. If you are a highly intuitive person you are more likely to be a Pantster. If you are more logical meaning you are sequential in your thinking then you are most likely to be a plotter.  

How you work is a function of who you are. Trying to change because someone tells you they do it one way or the other will not work.


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## David Gordon Burke (Nov 6, 2013)

Here's what I see as an overall fault / defect / characteristic in the majority of the posts I've ever read on this site. With all due respect, it doesn't matter what I busy myself with, blues guitar, accordion, cooking, web design, basket weaving - you name it. And there is always a web site somewhere dedicated to the art and it's usually full of guys who are looking for a short cut to success and arguing the 'why' and the 'how' of their laziness. (not trying to get a rise out of the 'I don't plan anything crowd' - no offense meant.)
It appears that a good number of members are SO concerned about the 'formula' that one needs to follow in order to get a book accepted by an agent, they are becoming exactly that 'formulaic.' I can think of nothing so boring as to pick up a book and get a. a catchy first line, paragraph etc. as is the norm in modern commercial fiction - b. action or dialogue in the first bit so as to grab me, engage me and try to suck me in - c. extreme violence, murder and mayhem on the first page (you killed off a fictional character in your first paragraph by grinding him up in a tree mulcher - bad boy - let me find out what happens.....oh please.) 

My point is that nothing sells better than a well written book. Take the latest bestselling thriller by Dean Koontz, James Patterson, John Grisham or any other middle of the road commercial fiction writer and it's not going to be half as engaging or sell half as many copies as something like Cold Mountain or The Kite Runner or The Life of Pi etc. (and even if they outsell those books, who the hell is ever going to remember or care about The Pelican Brief or the latest Alex Cross thriller.)

Planning in many ways can be the key to opening up your writing. Take a look at this page.

http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/articles/writing-the-perfect-scene/

Plan your scenes. Plan the conflict and resolution for each scene.
Now you have something.
If you can do this by the seat of your pants with no planning - I take my hat off to you.

David Gordon Burke


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## Sam (Nov 6, 2013)

David Gordon Burke said:


> If you can do this by the seat of your pants with no planning - I take my hat off to you.



I can, have, and will continue to do so. 

I've written a 200,000-word novel with a dozen characters, a dozen POVs, and tied them all up at the end without a single word expended on a plan. No matter how many times people try to make this clear, something seems to be lost in translation: writing by the seat of your pants *does not *mean writing the first thing that comes to you. It means planning the story in *your head. *That's what a pantser does. They plan everything in their head, and anything that isn't planned comes to them as they're writing.


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## Tettsuo (Nov 6, 2013)

Sam said:


> I can, have, and will continue to do so.
> 
> I've written a 200,000-word novel with a dozen characters, a dozen POVs, and tied them all up at the end without a single word expended on a plan. No matter how many times people try to make this clear, something seems to be lost in translation: writing by the seat of your pants *does not *mean writing the first thing that comes to you. It means planning the story in *your head. *That's what a pantser does. They plan everything in their head, and anything that isn't planned comes to them as they're writing.


I think you're missing something... we are praising you!  Do you not get that?  You can do something I can't, and it's impressive.

Your posts are coming off as defensive regardless of the fact that the planners are saying you pantsers are awesome.  I'm not understanding why you'd feel defensive in any way whatsoever.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Nov 6, 2013)

Tettsuo said:


> I think you're missing something... we are praising you!  Do you not get that?  You can do something I can't, and it's impressive.



Agreed.  I like to think I'm a pretty bright guy, and I know there's no way I could keep track of my story in my head.  Now, that might be because of how slow my process is (I used to be able to rattle off all 33 chapter titles in order; now, during editing, I struggle with it), but the fact remains that I would be lost without my notes and outlines.


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## Kyle R (Nov 6, 2013)

I've always taken the expression "Write by the seat of your pants" to mean you make it up as you go. 

When I pants my stories (I don't anymore, but I used to enjoy doing so), the process looked like this:

John and Marie stumbled into a door. 

No.. they reach a *vault* door. Yes. That's it. 

John and Marie stumbled into a vault door. The door was locked, a combination dial bulging above the handle.

No.. How about... They need a key. 

John and Marie stumbled into a vault door. The door was locked, a keyhole gaping dark and ominous beneath the handle.

Behind the door, something growled.

Maybe there are dragons behind the door. Or a tiger. Or... an army of zombies. Hmm.. I've still got a few sentences to figure that out...

Claws scraped against the steel. John and Marie looked at each other. 

Marie's eyes widened. "Did you hear that?"

John shook his head. "I'm pretending I didn't."

"But this is the only way out!"

John swallowed. "Then I hope whatever's behind this door isn't what I think it is." With a shaky hand, John pulled the rusted key from the satchel and slid it into the keyhole. He raised his eyebrows at Marie. "Ready?"

Marie gripped her staff and clenched her jaw. "Ready."

John turned the key. The door clicked and shuddered, and swung open into . . .

Into what? . .Hm. A great hall? A trophy room? A passage to the underworld? ...

(et cetera)

Writing like that, for me, was a lot of fun, but I was never able to wrangle the scenes into a cohesive plot. Pantsing always gave me creative freedom, but a structural nightmare.

I think, like all skills, you get better at it as you go. Stephen King writes in a similar fashion, from what I understand. I believe the reason it works for him (and those with a similar creative process) comes down to what *voltigeur* said: everyone thinks and creates differently.

The trick is finding what approach works best for you. For me, it took a few years to figure that out. :cower:


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## Tettsuo (Nov 6, 2013)

KyleColorado said:


> I've always taken the expression "Write by the seat of your pants" to mean you make it up as you go.
> 
> When I pants my stories (I don't anymore, but I used to enjoy doing so), the process looked like this:
> 
> ...


*Beautifully illustrated Kyle!*

This is exactly why I tried pantsing once, and never did so again.  Nothing came together for me.

It's also the reason why I think pantsers are straight up freaks of nature.


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## Sam (Nov 6, 2013)

Tettsuo said:


> I think you're missing something... we are praising you!  Do you not get that?  You can do something I can't, and it's impressive.
> 
> Your posts are coming off as defensive regardless of the fact that the planners are saying you pantsers are awesome.  I'm not understanding why you'd feel defensive in any way whatsoever.



I'm not being defensive. I'm simply trying to make the point clear, as certain people have misconceptions about seat-of-the-pants writing. They cast aspersions on it because it can't be possible that someone can write a powerful and meaningful story without planning it. I've encountered this mentality on numerous occasions. In fact, it's so deeply entrenched that almost all threads on this very topic devolve into an argument between planners and pantsers. I'm trying to dispel the misapprehensions once and for all. For instance, David Gordon Burke said, and I quote, "Planning in many ways can be the key to opening up your writing". This is the kind of throwaway line that infuriates non-planners, as though to suggest that one cannot open up one's writing without planning. It's a form of elitism that does nothing more than destroy the validity of what was a thoughtful and interesting post to that point. 

So, yes, people may be praising me and other pantsers -- but it's praise served with a side-order of scorn.


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## Newman (Nov 6, 2013)

Sam said:


> First drafts do not have to be crap.



Far too many people think their first draft is good or "nearly there." It rarely is.



KyleColorado said:


> But I leave the setting, the internalization, and the conflict open-ended. These things I create while writing each scene, and those things keep me inspired and feeling creative, so the job of writing doesn't feel like I'm being completely boxed in. Knowing the purpose of each scene also frees me up creatively to know that, when the scene is done, it will fit perfectly into the overall structure like a well-cut puzzle piece.



Dude, you've been drinking the Kool Aid. I only pasted a little of your text, but it sounds like you believe the fallacy that outlining and creativity are mutually exclusive. They're not.



Sam said:


> writing the first thing that comes to you.



That's pantsing. Doing it "by the seat of your pants."

And I can see how it works.

The people who do it well know what they're doing.



Sam said:


> It means planning the story in your head.



That's outlining. It involves planning. You're an outliner.



Sam said:


> a side-order of scorn.



I didn't detect that at all.


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## TheYellowMustang (Nov 6, 2013)

I do this: 



So…. yeah, I guess you could say I plan some in advance.


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## Sam (Nov 6, 2013)

Newman said:


> That's pantsing. Doing it "by the seat of your pants."



No, it isn't. It's "writing the first thing that comes into your head". 



> That's outlining. It involves planning. You're an outliner.



No, I am not. Never have been, never will be. A outliner outlines. I, on the other hand, write. Some of my story is in my head, some of it comes to me as I'm writing. I'm a not a planner, and it's clear that you have no idea what the difference is.


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## Kyle R (Nov 6, 2013)

Newman said:


> Dude, you've been drinking the Kool Aid. I only pasted a little of your text, but it sounds like you believe the fallacy that outlining and creativity are mutually exclusive. They're not.



No Kool Aid drinking here.  I'm speaking from my own personal experience. I work best when leaving the conflict of each scene ambiguous, leaving some creative wriggle-room. I know the goal of the character in the scene, and the outcome (some call this the "disaster", others call it the scene "climax"), but I leave how it gets there up in the air, as something to flesh out during the writing process.

A scene outline for me looks like this:

Scene 14: "Title"
Setting: Interior, Coffee Shop, Day
Goal: Jerry wants Kate to stop stealing his mail
Conflict: ??
Climax: Kate splashes Jerry in the face with her iced-tea.

During the writing process, I'll flesh out the actual conflict, which I know from intuition will be an argument, but I don't know exactly what will be said, or how the characters will physically act during the scene. These things I create as I write them, and I find my scenes develop organically this way, while still maintaining a predefined structure. :encouragement:


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## Newman (Nov 6, 2013)

Sam said:


> It means planning the story in your head.





Sam said:


> No, I am not. Never have been, never will be. A outliner outlines. I, on the other hand, write. Some of my story is in my head, some of it comes to me as I'm writing. I'm a not a planner, and it seems to me that you have no idea what the difference is.



Any sort of planning is really part-and-parcel of outlining. You can do it on paper, on a white board, or in your head. In fact, lots of outliners do it in their head, and they'll often use the expression "see the story before you write it."


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## Newman (Nov 6, 2013)

KyleColorado said:


> will be an argument, but I don't know exactly what will be said, or how the characters will physically act during the scene. These things I create as I write them, and I find my scenes develop organically this way, while still maintaining a predefined structure. :encouragement:



I do a similar thing.


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## Tettsuo (Nov 6, 2013)

KyleColorado said:


> No Kool Aid drinking here.  I'm speaking from my own personal experience. I work best when leaving the conflict of each scene ambiguous, leaving some creative wriggle-room. I know the goal of the character in the scene, and the outcome (some call this the "disaster", others call it the scene "climax"), but I leave how it gets there up in the air, as something to flesh out during the writing process.
> 
> A scene outline for me looks like this:
> 
> ...


Very similar to this.

I tend to outline chapters, only noting what needs to be accomplished.  How it all happens is up in the air.

*Chapter 1*
James and John investigate the ruins and discover an item of great power, they fight over who should take it to the museum.
John doesn't trust James with the idol.
James plots to kill John and take the item for himself.
James fails to kill John who takes possession of the idol and runs for his life - _He thought James was his friend_
John is unsure if he should even take the item to a museum for fear someone will misuse it there as well - _The truth is the item is having a negative effect on John's mind just like it did to James

_So long as I hit all the marks, I'm good to go.  What ends of happening is a lot is left to the imagination and things change around the big marks, but nothing alters the path.


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## Gavrushka (Nov 6, 2013)

There's one thing that troubles me about those that create a plot before they start writing. - When you move from the outline to the prose, don't you ever have inspirational moments that divert you far from the envisaged plot? Do you dismiss those and carry on with your original plan, or do you stop, create a new outline from the point you've reached and then continue onwards?

I do jot down ideas as they occur to me, but I only use a fraction of them, as better ideas seem to form as I write rather than when I think about writing.


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## TheYellowMustang (Nov 6, 2013)

Gavrushka said:


> There's one thing that troubles me about those that create a plot before they start writing. - When you move from the outline to the prose, don't you ever have inspirational moments that divert you far from the envisaged plot? Do you dismiss those and carry on with your original plan, or do you stop, create a new outline from the point you've reached and then continue onwards?
> 
> I do jot down ideas as they occur to me, but I only use a fraction of them, as better ideas seem to form as I write rather than when I think about writing.



I can only speak for myself and from my limited experience. I planned the whole thing before I wrote my first story, and whenever I had an idea outside of the original "plan" it didn't collide with the outline. It was just something extra to add. Maybe that had something to do with me writing with the outline of the story at the back of my mind. If you draw something without knowing what it'll end up being, you could end up with an arm on a person's head, but if you know you're drawing a portrait then you'll most likely end up with a portrait and the idea to draw the arm won't ever appear. 

However, when I'd finished the first draft and read through it I did get a new idea, and incorporating that idea meant re-writing the whole thing. So I did. Still, without the initial planning and "cheat sheet" I never wouldn't been able to write it. There were too many timelines to keep track of and intertwine. One story is happening during WW1 and moving backwards, another is moving in chronological order and happening in present time. Some of the characters show up towards the end, and I need to make sure that their "invisible" stories also make sense in this mess. I'm sure some could've done it without planning it do death, but not me. I have the memory of a fish.


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## Gavrushka (Nov 6, 2013)

I think one of the issues I have, is that if I take an extended period of time away from writing, I end up clueless, and have to reread from the start to pick up the thread.

Reading your words, however, I have the impression that you do see where you are heading with such clarity that you never face the prospect of an idea so radical that it replaces the plot. - Thank you for making it a little clearer. 

- I'll never be able to follow a plot, even if I could create one.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Nov 6, 2013)

For me, plotting and characterization are two distinct storytelling elements.  As I outline my story, I'm dealing primarily with plot.  That doesn't change much as the writing occurs.

My characterization, on the other hand, is very dynamic.  Who my characters were changed drastically as I wrote.  Characters revealed sides and layers of themselves that I didn't expect, but I certainly wasn't above changing their intended characterization to account for that.  While the events still continued as planned, the characters' reactions to the events changed quite a bit.

Of course, all of this is driven by what the story is.  A major theme in my story is the powerlessness of the main characters as forces beyond their control drive the plot.  That's probably why the plot doesn't deviate from my original outlines; there's nothing the characters can do to change it.


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## Tettsuo (Nov 6, 2013)

Gavrushka said:


> When you move from the outline to the prose, don't you ever have inspirational moments that divert you far from the envisaged plot?


Actually, no.  Things are fit in around the main plot, but never does it overwrite it.  The ideas spring up from within the existing structure, not outside of it.


> Do you dismiss those and carry on with your original plan, or do you stop, create a new outline from the point you've reached and then continue onwards?


This only happens if the main story ends up being something I don't really want or the tangent is more interesting to me.  If so, I need to redo the outline with the new plot path.


> I do jot down ideas as they occur to me, but I only use a fraction of them, as better ideas seem to form as I write rather than when I think about writing.


If the new idea fits, I add it in and track it's path as it'll probably cause ripples.

What I find amazing about how the human subconscious works, is I've been able to keep track of the outline I've created in my head and follow it.  All new ideas are generated along the outline I've already established, none of them deviating from it whatsoever. I didn't even have to check the outline.  Something about the act of writing it etches it in the brain.

So I assume this is what pantsers do... somehow?  Just without the need to put it down.  Or do you really have no idea at all about how the story will resolve itself?


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## Gavrushka (Nov 6, 2013)

I really don't know how I write. The one thing I can say, is that the further through a story I get, the more defined and predictable my prose appears to be, and I need to do less retrospective alterations to the earlier chapters.

It is quite a revelation to see how other people go through the technical process of forming a story. - I wish I could choose which way I wrote, but I lack the ability to write in any other way than I do now.

I wonder if it would be fair to say that a pantser just does an extremely detailed plot which doubles up as a first draft...


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## Kevin (Nov 6, 2013)

> Or do you really have no idea at all about how the story will resolve itself?


  Yah, and it scares me. I mean what if I get 50k words in _and I can't figure out how to finish it?_   I guess I'll just have to. Heh... I can't worry about it.


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## David Gordon Burke (Nov 6, 2013)

Sam said:


> For instance, David Gordon Burke said, and I quote, "Planning in many ways can be the key to opening up your writing".
> So, yes, people may be praising me and other pantsers -- but it's praise served with a side-order of scorn.



First of all, if someone reads scorn between the lines of someone's posts, that speaks more to a state of mind and less to the intention of the person posting.  I think it's safe to say that the majority of us post to and for the less experienced writer (of which most of us are) in the hope of encouraging and learning.  I am not familiar with your work (or the work of any of the writers on the site) so I cannot nor would I judge or validate.  As for the section of my post you quoted - the key words there are "Can Be" which in no way exclude the possibility of flying by the seat of your pants.  

 I have a hard time understanding the idea of becoming infuriated by a comment made on these threads.   Makes no sense to me whatsoever.  
Regardless, my apologies for the percieved although unintended scorn.  My point was to highlight the information contained in the link I included - nothing more.  
David Gordon Burke


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