# Want to know how cliche your villian is?



## bookmasta (Oct 2, 2013)

I took this test for a few of my villains I've used in past works. Most have been under fifteen. I find it to be an amusing prospect to gage the originality of one's diabolical mastermind. http://www.catnip4writers.com/tools/cliche_villain.htm


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## The Tourist (Oct 2, 2013)

If you eliminate all of the criteria, it only leaves Chaz Bono, who undoubtedly be starring in the next seventeen YA novels plus a "re-imagining" of THG.

Don't laugh.  His career is stalled, perhaps villainy will be a new revenue stream.


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## David Gordon Burke (Oct 3, 2013)

It gets worse - want to know how cliche your whole plot is?  Check out this page.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage

David Gordon Burke


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## The Tourist (Oct 3, 2013)

I just found out I lived a "trope."

I was always into target shooting, but in my mid twenties I really went overboard.  If I wasn't riding, I was shooting.  Not only did I buy powders and primers in bulk, but I bought up all of the linotype, wheel weights, tin and solder I could find and began to cast my own bullets.  Being OCD, every bullet I cast was perfect.

These lino slugs have an extremely high Brinell hardness, grab the rifling like a jacketed bullet and don't lead the barrels (much).  For a few years I shot metallic silhouette, and then started shooting custom combat pistols.  I think I put a luxury wing on Terry Tussey's house!

I had three cartridge presses, one of them a Dillon.  When we bought our present home my wife made sure she picked a house with large downstairs bedroom, which became a "bullet factory."

But here's where fact mates with fiction.  I needed a "hook" for my lead, and wanted some insider info without beating the non-sporting reader to death.  I had my lead carry an SW 610 and a Colt Delta Elite.  Despite being a revolver and a pistol, both fire the 10mm Auto.  I once owned a Bren Ten, and after loading the cartridge for a few decades thought it was a unique balance of power, penetration and accuracy.

The one characteristic that makes linotype bullets good for guys like me is that they are cheap to make, plentiful, and if you run out of commercial lino, you make your own out of wheel weights, solder, and the arsenic and antimony of large truck wheel weights.  

And this bullet has one amazing feature--it will penetrate just about anything!  I figured it would be the perfect prop for the book.  No matter what milieu I put the lead into, he already had all the solutions on his belt.

Now I find out that mystical ammunition is a trope...

These are lino bullets.  They are "paper punchers."  A target bullet, obviously designed for extreme accuracy.  There are for a 1911 Colt pistol chambered in .45 ACP.


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## TheoMiller (Oct 5, 2013)

Mine scored a 19, although, to be fair, some of the characteristics are common (for instance, the ability to swordfight in a pseudo-medieval universe as a part of a race known for their swordfighting within the universe, or the ability to use elemental magic in a universe of magical creatures, half of whom use elemental magic and the other half of whom use other kinds of magic). But yeah, she used to be closer to a 56 than I'm comfortable with. Now I like her cause better than that of my protagonists. Whoops.


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## The Tourist (Oct 5, 2013)

Well, we've identified a potential problem that many of us have.  And we'd all like to write better stories.  So how do we create believable, passionate, truly twisted villains and believable struggles without falling into the "trope trap"?


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## shadowwalker (Oct 5, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> So how do we create believable, passionate, truly twisted villains and believable struggles without falling into the "trope trap"?



Remember that your villains are people, just like the heroes. They just have different goals and methods.


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## tepelus (Oct 5, 2013)

I got a 21, which isn't all that bad, but I already knew my baddy had some cliched elements to him.


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## The Tourist (Oct 5, 2013)

I wish I was as lucky as you guys.  My villain tapped out.  While there's a good reason on why he was depicted as such, it's still the trifecta of villainy.

Clearly I have to tweak some details.


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## Jeko (Oct 5, 2013)

In answer to the title question: no.


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## Folcro (Oct 5, 2013)

I scored a six! I was actually elated to realize that my protagonist had more cliche villain elements than my villain


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## Jeko (Oct 5, 2013)

Experimented with the test. Found that 'Has outwitted/outfought/outdone the protagonist' deducts points from score. In what way it this 'against' cliche? Moreover, in what way does this have _anything _to do with cliche?

Of course, I think trying to make your villain less cliche is in itself cliche, and thus counter-intuitive.


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## Folcro (Oct 5, 2013)

Cadence said:


> Of course, I think trying to make your villain less cliche is in itself cliche, and thus counter-intuitive.



I think the generally-accepted definition of cliche is more in the outcome than the method. The method shouldn't really be shown at all in the finished product. The goal of any writer should be to show that he is not trying too hard... or at all, if he can help it. Originality may not be an original goal, if you want to get so philosophical, but if the outcome is original enough, the intention of making that villain original will probably be hidden.


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## Jeko (Oct 5, 2013)

> I think the generally-accepted definition of cliche is more in the outcome than the method. The method shouldn't really be shown at all in the finished product. The goal of any writer should be to show that he is not trying too hard... or at all, if he can help it. Originality may not be an original goal, if you want to get so philosophical, but if the outcome is original enough, the intention of making that villain original will probably be hidden.



I know. It's when I see a book that has tried to avoid cliche at every turn; it makes me cringe. The author ends up drawing more attention to their work than if they'd simply 'gone with the flow'. As you said, a writer should show that he isn't trying too hard - trying too hard to avoid cliche will likely show.

I don't think decisions in a novel should be based on the decisions other people make in their novels; at least not when drafting.


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## Folcro (Oct 5, 2013)

Cadence said:


> I know. It's when I see a book that has tried to avoid cliche at every turn; it makes me cringe. The author ends up drawing more attention to their work than if they'd simply 'gone with the flow'. As you said, a writer should show that he isn't trying too hard - trying too hard to avoid cliche will likely show.
> 
> I don't think decisions in a novel should be based on the decisions other people make in their novels; at least not when drafting.



I can agree with that.

...Out of curiosity though, you haven't told us what you scored


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## J Anfinson (Oct 5, 2013)

I took it the other day. I think it was 22. I'll see what I can do to improve that, but I'm not real worried about it. I think it's more important to have a character that's interesting to you than to be cliche-free.


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## Jeko (Oct 6, 2013)

> ...Out of curiosity though, you haven't told us what you scored :grin:



I didn't take the test. 

And even if I did, in a couple of weeks the number would change. My characters are always changing.


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## The Tourist (Oct 6, 2013)

J Anfinson said:


> I took it the other day. I think it was 22. I'll see what I can do to improve that, but I'm not real worried about it. I think it's more important to have a character that's interesting to you than to be cliche-free.



I took the test and bombed out worse than you did.  The problem I faced is that most of my characters are not who they claim to be or think they are.  The traits that could be cliché are actual insights into who they really are.

I mean, if you're a villain and wear leather it's black in color.  If it's snow white or pink your villain has other problems.

And the issue about becoming a villain due to deaths baffles me.  Lots of real and historic people rose to power because their parents were killed or by losing wealth to primogeniture.  I don't see a conflict there.

Heck, my Aunt Minnie talked to snakes, and she died before the Potter books came out...


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