# Who publishes rubbish books?



## philwebb (Sep 18, 2012)

This may seem like a strange question but everything I read on forums, agents and publishers websites etc. suggests that a book has to be amazing to be accepted for publication. However, there are some truly awful books out there! I don't want to generalise too much but I am thinking of some of the things you find in airports, service stations, bargain buckets... This question isn't personal - I have not yet written anything worthy of submitting, but I was just curious as to how some of these books make it through what appears to be a very difficult process?


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## Potty (Sep 18, 2012)

A good question. I've read some books where after page five I've had to put it down and soak my head in a pan of boiling sugar water to remove the clichés from my mind.


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## AZzed (Sep 18, 2012)

Publishers publish what they think will sell, NOT what they consider good writing. In fact good writing has very little to do with a successful novel - readers want a good STORY above all. Story trumps all. Look at Meyer, E L James, Dan Brown, James Patterson... If the premise is marketable it'll get published.


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## squidtender (Sep 18, 2012)

I've tried telling you guys my idea about magical teen vampires, called "50 shades of hogwarts", is going to make millions. . .


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## JosephB (Sep 18, 2012)

There's rubbish everything: Movies, TV, food, fashion. Why would books be any different? But there's always an audience for quality, even if it's relatively small. And on occasion, something or someone special catches on. There's no sense in shaking your fist or getting frustrated considering the sheer volume of crap that's out there. Just do what you do, put the work into it -- and cross your fingers.


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## shadowwalker (Sep 18, 2012)

And, obviously, there's a huge amount of subjectivity involved. One man's garbage is another man's treasure. As I always say, story trumps all. If the story is good, the writing doesn't have to be stellar. Publishers and agents know that. Not to mention that there's also an audience for the quick dumb book just to read on the commute, in the waiting room, etc. I've picked up 'crap' books for just that purpose. Better than staring at nothing for a couple of hours...


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## JosephB (Sep 18, 2012)

I think the bigger point is, don’t worry about it. Write what you want to write, what you feel you do best -- either there’s a market for it, or there isn’t. There are also people out there who don't think story trumps all, who have certain standards when it comes to the writing -- otherwise they can't get into the story. That's an audience too.


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## words (Sep 19, 2012)

philwebb said:


> This may seem like a strange question but everything I read on forums, agents and publishers websites etc. suggests that a book has to be amazing to be accepted for publication. However, there are some truly awful books out there! I don't want to generalise too much but I am thinking of some of the things you find in airports, service stations, bargain buckets... This question isn't personal - I have not yet written anything worthy of submitting, but I was just curious as to how some of these books make it through what appears to be a very difficult process?



Because in the end, publishers are not as smart or the all knowing arbiters of quality as some like to think they are! Most of what gets published flop big time, good and bad alike. The game of publishing is not being right more than you are wrong, it is the same as venture capital: a few big successes, and a smaller group of moderate successes make up for a massive heap of failures. Anyone who disputes this should re read the history of Harry Potter which was rejected by all and sundry!

There is also the second more important factor to success. Read John Locke, the man who sold 1 million books on kindle in 5 months: success relies on marketing, and now bookshops are on the way out, it is not as simple as the once stranglehold of publishers over display space in shops. Marketing really matters to success, and for anyone less than the famous few, your own marketing matters more than ever.
A legion of examples from within and outside publishing, take the IBM PC as a standard  proves that well marketed junk will always succeed better than badly marketed golddust.


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## AZzed (Sep 19, 2012)

Completely agree with the above ^^


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## shadowwalker (Sep 19, 2012)

words said:


> There is also the second more important factor to success. Read John Locke, the man who sold 1 million books on kindle in 5 months: success relies on marketing, and now bookshops are on the way out, it is not as simple as the once stranglehold of publishers over display space in shops.



Oh yeah - John Locke, who was recently outed for having _purchased _300 reviews when he started out. And it wasn't exactly small change he spent there. Don't suppose that's in his book (the one where he's telling others how he did it). So yeah, if someone wants to shell out a few grand for some faked reviews...


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## movieman (Sep 19, 2012)

shadowwalker said:


> And, obviously, there's a huge amount of subjectivity involved. One man's garbage is another man's treasure.



A writer with the same name as me wrote some compellingly bad SF novels  in the 90s, which is why I use a pseudonym. The pulp storyline and poor editing didn't stop him selling  a series of five or six, and one of them sells used on Amazon for over  $50.


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## Trilby (Sep 19, 2012)

A good business man gives the customer what they want - not what he thinks they should have.

A number of years ago (many moons ago) I became manager of a prize bingo hall, I learned the hard way not to buy stock that I liked (it never moved) but to listen to the customer and give them what they wanted - if you do not give your customer what he/she wants, they will take their custom elsewhere. 'He who pays the piper names the tune'.


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## words (Sep 19, 2012)

shadowwalker said:


> Oh yeah - John Locke, who was recently outed for having _purchased _300 reviews when he started out. And it wasn't exactly small change he spent there. Don't suppose that's in his book (the one where he's telling others how he did it). So yeah, if someone wants to shell out a few grand for some faked reviews...




The advice in that book is good:  have you read it?

For avoidance of doubt, 1 milion people bought the books because they liked them, only the first few bought them because they were drawn to their attention by gaming the system, and in large part because of a lot of other sensible advice.

Ungentlemanly? Possibly. Recommended, certainly not. Amazon would close the account if done now that loophole has been progressively closed.  Unethical? that is a relative term. It is hardly different to the anticompetitve bullying that publishers have put on retailers for many years to force them to display the books they choose, when they choose, where they choose regardless of retailer preferences,  or the kickbacks paid to book clubs or journals to recommend or feature certain books, or even getting an army of friends or friendly forum goers to go and review the book for you. All of which are gaming the system in different ways.   Coming to which ALL the big publishers are presently in front of the department of justice for an anti competitive deal done with apple. The world is not the nice clean ethical place that anyone hopes.

In the end you can bribe friends fools  family  or use financial incentives or even paid ads to get a book noticed. but that is all the loopholes can do.. Selling big numbers is the result of people buying and liking it, from which there is no hiding now, and most of that  now relies on " own " marketing, not on that from the publisher. The time on the  publisher promotion list is now desperately short.


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## Kryptex (Sep 19, 2012)

So, - ignorant this may seem - is one allowed to do what John Locke did? Purchase reviews from people?

Although unorthodox, it proved extremely efficient didn't it?


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## words (Sep 19, 2012)

Kryptex said:


> So, - ignorant this may seem - is one allowed to do what John Locke did? Purchase reviews from people?
> 
> Although unorthodox, it proved extremely efficient didn't it?



It is absolutely against the TOC of amazon and if you tried it now and they caught you they would shut your account with extreme prejudice , and in recent times Amazon have been "cleaning up the act" a little. 

But the service is offered for example on fiverr to get "honest reviews". I am guessing amazon will buy those reviews to find the accounts of the reviewers then remove ALL their feedback! So it is not safe.

In short you have to be more subtle. Sure you need good reviews, but time honoured help from family fools, friends and forums are needed to do that. Which are no more ethical, in an absolute sense but far less likely to get sanction!

There are book clubs elsewhere where budding authors "help each other out" by reading and reviewing.
Budding authors in your "club" are highly unlikely to give bad reviews, they would rather give no review at all, so clubs of budding authors helping each other out are a good place to start..Even then you have to be careful to make sure it is not seen as a concert party. I will not give examples because they clearly compete as writer resources with here.

Oh - and get them to buy the book. Reviews from purchasers are what are needed .

Coming back to what I see as the main issue, is you cannot forge feedback to make big sales. All the feedback just gets you noticed. If the book is no good, real reviewers will slam it down, and that is a death knell. So in the end it is all about the book.


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## Kryptex (Sep 19, 2012)

Ahh, okay thanks


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## shadowwalker (Sep 19, 2012)

words said:


> It is hardly different to the anticompetitve bullying that publishers have put on retailers for many years to force them to display the books they choose, when they choose, where they choose regardless of retailer preferences,  or the kickbacks paid to book clubs or journals to recommend or feature certain books, or even getting an army of friends or friendly forum goers to go and review the book for you. All of which are gaming the system in different ways.   Coming to which ALL the big publishers are presently in front of the department of justice for an anti competitive deal done with apple. The world is not the nice clean ethical place that anyone hopes.



Bullying bookstores? Just how do they do that? Bookstores have buyers. Those buyers look at the book, the author, the history of sales of that author (if there is one), and then decide which books to purchase from the publisher. That DOJ suit has not been resolved as yet, so it's a little early to paint all the publishers named in the suit as guilty. But then, why not add to the cornucopia of misinformation, right?

Seriously, you need to find other sources for your information on publishing.


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## words (Sep 20, 2012)

shadowwalker said:


> Bullying bookstores? Just how do they do that? Bookstores have buyers. Those buyers look at the book, the author, the history of sales of that author (if there is one), and then decide which books to purchase from the publisher. That DOJ suit has not been resolved as yet, so it's a little early to paint all the publishers named in the suit as guilty. But then, why not add to the cornucopia of misinformation, right?
> 
> Seriously, you need to find other sources for your information on publishing.



How it really works is complex deals that oblige retailers to give up their prime agreed display space to the promotion schedules of major publishers. So in exchange for getting the best sellers on shelves, they are forced to display them in agreed prime places, and take and display a quota of other works in "new releases" which are on the publishers promotion schedule. Each for a very limited time. 

Don't knock it. If you go the "conventional route" and ever succeed in getting published via one of the big guys you are relying on this process for a good part of how you get noticed.

I am surprised that you are surprised by this! 

There is nothing unusual here. It happens in every major sphere of retailing from booze to computers. If a computer shop wants to stock "apple" which it is more or less forced to do if it wants to present as a computer superstore, it does it on apple's terms not their own. It displays where they want them to , what they want them too , and more or less at the price they want them too (just keeping the right side of laws, by for example, discounts so locked to selling price that nobody can in reality discount!) .. The reason is , they need apple, but apple does not need them nearly as badly. In that case supplier power dominates.

Only such as supermarkets fall outside the capture of deals like this: they don't need to stock any particular book, indeed do not need to stock books at all, just as for example they do not need to stock any particular brand of booze like true drinks outlets do, or apple or any other computer so the supermarketis are in the driving seat in any deal. They do the deals they want for the books they want. Selling at the price they want. Customer power wins in that case. The supermarkets do not need any particular publisher as much as the publishers want them as an outlet. The problem is the likelihood of getting your book as a new author into Walmart who only stock tens of books that sell in squillions quantities is essentially zero.

That the supermarkets Discount top authors day one, is putting a further nail in the coffin of bookshops, and so further damaging part of the stranglehold publishers used to have over the book trade - as less and less books are sold by high street book chaiins at all.

Niche retailers of anything cannot afford to "not stock" any major brand, and if they become big enough the tail then starts wagging the dog. They become reliant on the big brands for a big enough chunk of the products and customers that the brands start to dictate terms and can bully the retailer into peripheral agreements such as merchandising new products, the retailer concedes in order to keep the trade. So niche retailers can get thoroughly bullied by big brands if the retailer has to have that brand. That is the dynamics of retail business for you. In fact any business : read about porter forces in business in the harvard model of any business MNA- how supplier power and customer power dominate the competitive position of business and so the dynamics of those interactions.

As an ex retailer - amongst other businesses - I can assure you merchandising agreements are a fundamental part of every major brand contract retailers sign - including taking part in limited promotions of some new products. All part of the typical deal. 


It used to be that the essential route to market for any new book was being "seen" in major book retailers because of these deals that got them on shelves and being promoted whilst the book was on those shelves which was part of the stranglehold publishers had over authors which was having access to and controlling the route to market - being slotted in the "schedule"

Clearly that power although it still exsists is nothing like what it was. The route to market for all but a handful of already successful authors or celebrities is now promotion via the web, which although more like the "wild west" is a far more level playing field, for those willing to go the hard yards of promoting their own books.

Speaking at length to one of the UKs top selling authors in his penthouse some while ago- he calculated for me from his knowledge of how his own publishers work his percieved odds of the conventional route to getting noticed, getting published then getting a good seller as more or less the same as winning the lottery! I do not know whether his numbers were precise but I suspect he was not miles off in the rough order of magnitude. So the fact that the web gives so many more possibilities to an author to get noticed has got to be a good thing for everyone.

But not if you hope the publisher will do it all for you except the writing., a forlorn hope indeed unless you are already well known.


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## shabazz (Sep 25, 2012)

I will go with a good story line especially one with rarity. Cliche will be a no no for me.
Authors know what will sell, ditto to the choice of what they publish.


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## garza (Sep 27, 2012)

My unthinking response to the original question was 'Merriam Webster' because of all the misspelt words, but I caught myself in time and won't say that.


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