# How Good Are You?



## aquablue (Aug 18, 2010)

How good are you with your grammar?

From the scale of 1 - 5 (5 being tops in English grammar), tell us your number. Be honest now.  

I am a 3. :afro:

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## Ilasir Maroa (Aug 18, 2010)

4 or 5


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## Sam (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm currently sitting on first-class honours in both English and history in my college. Two completely disparate subjects which have different demands. English asks of a person the ability to analyse works. History requires concision in answering questions. 

From what my tutors and professors have told me, I'm inclined to say -- at the risk of sounding conceited -- that my grammar is a five.


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## garza (Aug 18, 2010)

Sam - You are being taught history the wrong way. I was too. I can remember trying in every history course to steer class discussion toward an analysis of why, not just what. I can remember only one teacher, a junior instructor, who followed that line and, interestingly enough, always included references to the literature of whatever time we were studying. The old tenured professors taught history the way you are talking about, so I had to do a lot of studying on my own to find out why the difference in French and English cultures allowed Henry to come away winner after doing so many things wrong against a superior force. He should never have reached the field at Agincourt, much less won a battle there. You have to dig a lot deeper than the concise answers you mention to understand what happened. 

As for grammar, I would never rate myself higher than a 3, moderately competent. This is why I keep Fowler at my elbow at all times, and a 2nd edition Hewings (from the younger university) as well.

I pursued a strange course. Instead of a double major, English and History, I was enrolled as a history major and separately as an English major. I was granted a BA in English and one semester later a BA in history. That also meant I had two minors, philosophy and economics.


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## badjoke (Aug 18, 2010)

I think I'm a 4.5 to a 5. I usually ignore the rules of grammar, though. But I know them! ha.


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## Fox80 (Aug 18, 2010)

A 6. I should have been an English teacher.


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## Farror (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm going to go with a four. I'm an English major, but my handle on grammar is mostly instinctive. Most likely as a result of copious amounts of reading.


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## Ilasir Maroa (Aug 18, 2010)

Fox80 said:


> *A 6*. I should have been an English teacher.




Hehe, your grammar might be good, but your counting skills need some work.


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## Farror (Aug 18, 2010)

Either his counting skills or his modesty.


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## Fox80 (Aug 18, 2010)

All right, all right. I am actually very self-conscious and modest, even deprecating toward myself and my abilities. But I do utilize grammar properly. And I used to be an accountant; believe it or not, 1-5 can include 6.


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## garza (Aug 18, 2010)

My, such modesty we should appreciate. Which are we to 'believe it or not', that you used to be an accountant, or that 1-5 can include 6? The misuse of qualifying parenthetical expressions is a common error. Don't feel bad about it.


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## Farror (Aug 18, 2010)

I understood what he meant well enough. How should he have phrased it, if you don't mind my asking?


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## Fox80 (Aug 18, 2010)

I won't. And try not to feel bad about your error regarding the codicil.


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## garza (Aug 18, 2010)

One way would be, 'I used to be an accountant, and, believe it or not, 1-5 can include 6. Expressing it this way would remove any doubt as to the meaning. A more emphatic way of expressing it would be, 'Believe it or not, 1-5 can include 6. I know because I used to be an accountant.'

This is one reason I tell students in my workshops never to use parenthetical expressions in broadcast stories and to use them with caution in newspaper accounts. Such expressions are grammatically isolated from the principal structure of the sentence and often can be seen as pointing in either direction. For broadcast, of course, the primary problem with such expressions is that they interrupt the flow of the sentence and can cause the listener, often distracted by what's going on around him, to lose the sense of the story. 

No error in the codicil. My grandsons understand why it must be as it is.


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## mandax (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm double majoring in journalism and English, so you'd think I'd say five, but I'll give myself a four.  Even though I work as a copy editor, I don't have a full grasp of the finer points of grammar.  When it comes to the names of things, though, I'm completely hopeless.  I watched "Are You Smarter than a 5th Grader?" the other day, hoping to boost my self esteem, but I couldn't answer the second-grade grammar question because I didn't know what a possessive noun was.  I can use the hell out of them though, and that's all that matters, right?


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## J.R. MacLean (Aug 18, 2010)

My grammar's probably a 3 or 4 now, but in her younger days she was, it is said, a nicely rounded 8.


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## garza (Aug 18, 2010)

As a practical matter, yes, that's all that matters, so long as you are comfortable. I've never been felt easy trusting to my own resources, which is why I keep grammar, style, and usage books handy. Today I also have recourse to the Internet. 

Let me ask you this. Now that you have learned the technical definition of possessive nouns, are you more at ease using them? Or has it made any difference at all? And has it caused you to want to learn more of the technicalities of grammar?

Why are you getting a major in journalism? For a second major you would do far better with history or economics. Journalism classes are good at teaching newspaper techniques of 100 years ago and broadcast techniques of 50 years ago. If you want to learn broadcast journalism get a job as a news reporter at a local radio station, the kind whose manager asks questions like 'do you use drugs to excess, do you have any active felony warrants against you, can you speak English?' before hiring you. Spend a few hours a day for a year rewriting police reports, covering city council meetings, and listening to the feedback you get from listeners about whether you are getting the story across. You will learn more about the real world of broadcast journalism in a year than you will learn in the five or six years it will take you to get a masters in journalism. What you learn on the street and in the Trash-FM studios can then be instantly transferred to the area's major tv station. Much of what you learn in a journalism classroom you will have to unlearn, painfully, before you will be able to fulfill your potential as a broadcast journalist. 

Keep the English major, and if you don't have too many hours invested, swap journalism for something of more value. Understand that I speak as a journalist with over 50 years of experience. But still, my opinion is just that, my opinion, for you to consider or discard as you like. Talk with some of the old heads at local stations, see what they say.

And if you want the truth about the English language, get a copy of Fowler's Modern English Usage, Clarendon Press, Oxford.


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## Fox80 (Aug 18, 2010)

You are extremely insulting, garza. Do not harass me again. Thank you.


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## The Backward OX (Aug 18, 2010)

_Fight! Fight!_


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## The Backward OX (Aug 18, 2010)

I have no idea if I know the rules of grammar or not. I _just _write.


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## mandax (Aug 18, 2010)

Knowing the term "possessive noun" hasn't in any way altered my usage of possessive nouns.  I do, however, want to learn some of the technical aspects, mainly to know where all of these rules come from, and also because I might teach English someday.

As for the journalism major, I actually agree with all that you've said.  I picked up journalism and English because I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life; I just knew I liked to write.  Over the course of my education, I've decided that reporting isn't something I want to do, but the major's given me some valuable skills for writing, editing, and HTML/CSS, so I don't regret it.  My current plan is to go to law school and study copyright law, which isn't entirely irrelevant.  I've heard that law schools like journalism majors, so I can only hope that's true.  But yes, while being in school, all that you've said has become evident: it's definitely a career that values experience much more than theoretical knowledge and practice within the classroom.  My university does claim, however, that they're training you to be multi-talented reporters, as there are fewer job positions and people are expected to perform more tasks.  But hey, I only know what they tell me, and I'm actually relieved to be studying for the LSAT rather than worrying about how many clips I have and what internships I can get.  Things appear to be getting really competitive, and I'm just not cut out for it.  At least I figured that out in time.


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## Farror (Aug 18, 2010)

Lets play nice in here.


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## garza (Aug 18, 2010)

The fact is I do owe Fox80 an apology. I just went back through the thread and the phrase which I thought he had set off by commas was, in fact, preceded by a semi-colon. Blame bad eyesight and old age. So I'm thinking maybe J.R can set me up with his Grammar. With my eyes a 3 will look like an 8. 

Ox - I've read your writing, and you do know the rules of grammar. You just think you don't because you are not conscious of them as you write.


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## thewordsmith (Aug 18, 2010)

Such a question, regardless how innocent it was put forth, creates a breeding ground for sniping and bickering. Better question: Don't you think, on a writing forum, there are better things to talk about than whether someone else is as good at English as they believe themselves to be? The question was fairly benign. How would you rate your English grammar? I don't think that was supposed to be a jumping off point for in-fighting.

And, no, I'm not about to answer that question.

mandax, you heard right. Law schools do like journalism and/or English majors. (You would be astounded at the number of marginally literate lawyers they are turning out these days. Not all of them, of course, but, far too many!)


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## garza (Aug 18, 2010)

The whole thread was pretty light hearted, at least I thought so, up to a point. I intended no ill will for anyone.

I knew law schools like English majors, but I didn't know they also like journalism majors. Maybe the idea is that when they chase an ambulance they can get a client and do a story for the six o'clock news.

So mandax that journalism major will be of value after all. That's good. It sounds as if you are on a good track and know where you are going.


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## The Backward OX (Aug 18, 2010)

garza said:


> Ox - I've read your writing, and you do know the rules of grammar.


If you were a Norstralyan or a Kiwi or even one of certain Englishmen, then this would be the point at which I could cry, "_Come in, spinner_."


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## Like a Fox (Aug 18, 2010)

Good Lord.


I don't know my rating out of five. I'll understand a bit more when I do editing 101 next year at Uni.
I know my comma use is a bit allovertheplace. Oh and I make up words.
Don't you think that should be a word? Allovertheplace. Has a good ring to it.


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## garza (Aug 18, 2010)

Ox - Um, is that good?

Like a Fox - Tyre ads I wrote for a few years for a well-known, at least in some countries, tyre company included the word 'slickery' to describe a slick and slippery road after a rain. 'There's no such word', complained the advertising manager. 'There is now,' I told him, explaining that it's the sort of sordid thing you do to get people to sit up and pay attention to the rest of the commercial. It always works perfectly.
'George, what did that man just say? Slick something?' 
'I'm not sure Maude. Must be talkin' 'bout Slick 'arry's Used Cars. I think he said they have new tyres.' 
'Let's go see.'


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## mandax (Aug 18, 2010)

Glad to hear law schools like journalism majors.  I'll just be a lawyer who completely destroys everyone involved with libel.  That'll be fun.  I'm really just praying there's some sort of subtle grammar mistake on the LSAT I can point out to win brownie points.


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## mandax (Aug 18, 2010)

Like a Fox said:


> Allovertheplace. Has a good ring to it.


 
That needs to become a word immediately.  Not only does it mimic the way people say the phrase, but saying it at a higher, one-word speed makes the word actually sound, well, all over the place.


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## garza (Aug 19, 2010)

Like a Fox - There is one simple rule that will clear up all your confusion about commas:

_'All the rules for commas are wrong, including this one.'_

Hope this helps.


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## Fox80 (Aug 19, 2010)

garza said:


> The fact is I do owe Fox80 an apology. I just went back through the thread and the phrase which I thought he had set off by commas was, in fact, preceded by a semi-colon.


Thank you for the apology. I apologize for being touchy. Peace.


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## garza (Aug 19, 2010)

Did you read my PM?


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## Jayrock77 (Aug 19, 2010)

I am only going into 9th grade English and compared to most of you, I would give myself a 1/5.


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## Olly Buckle (Aug 19, 2010)

mandax said:


> That needs to become a word immediately.  Not only does it mimic the way people say the phrase, but saying it at a higher, one-word speed makes the word actually sound, well, all over the place.


Aussies do this all the time, as in "Living in a terror souse", they also have sex, for putting potatoes in.


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## Like a Fox (Aug 19, 2010)

You lost me at sex for potatoes, Olly.


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## The Backward OX (Aug 19, 2010)

I think he's mixing us up with Kay One Double-You Ones. Y'know, that lot that say things like "fush and chups."


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## The Backward OX (Aug 19, 2010)

Although I wil put my hand up for "Owyergoinmateorright?"


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## The Backward OX (Aug 19, 2010)

And "'I Gunga Din, the door slokt! Cummer nope nit formee!"


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## Olly Buckle (Aug 19, 2010)

Like a Fox said:


> You lost me at sex for potatoes, Olly.


You know, used to be jute sex but nowadays they use paper sex. They don't have sex there Ox, only sheep.


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## Like a Fox (Aug 19, 2010)

The Backward OX said:


> And "'I Gunga Din, the door slokt! Cummer nope nit formee!"


My little sister got a whole page full of these for something she was doing in her linguistics class. I was hopeless at guessing them unless I put on my best 'Shazza'-voice and talked 'em out.


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## Ilasir Maroa (Aug 19, 2010)

Like a Fox said:


> My little sister got a whole page full of these for something she was doing in her linguistics class. I was hopeless at guessing them unless I put on my best 'Shazza'-voice and talked 'em out.


 
Hehe... I've done those for one of my linguistics classes as well. Despite what you see on a page, when we speak, it's basically one continuous stream of sounds, until you pause for a breath. So when you think how hard it is to figure those out reading, just remember that your ears and brain do that every time you listen to someone speak. 

A while back, I wrote a poem, and then for fun, I converted it into one of these exercises. It wasn't as perfect, but that's because they both had to make sense, and it was a few hundred words long.

Another similar challange was to give out a phonetic transcription in IPA, which could be interpreted sensibly in different ways, and is in spirit very similar to what NTO quote above.


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## Loulou (Aug 19, 2010)

Three.  On a good day.  What I post here has been carefully reviewed lest my appalling hold of grammar gets out and I'm given twenty lashes.  Hopefully.


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## Tom (Aug 19, 2010)

Easily a two or three.

For a student studying English, History and Philosophy you'd expect better, but I fall quite a bit with comma's, speech and 'to' and 'too' which will always confuse me I think.


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## garza (Aug 19, 2010)

Language is oral. No matter how proud we may be of our writing skills, the best we can hope for on paper is a rough approximation. I am fluent in Belize Kriol (Creole) but when I see it written I can't understand it. I must read it out loud, then it makes perfect sense.


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## The Backward OX (Aug 19, 2010)

I suppose that means the native speakers of Belize Creole can't read their own newspapers and have to rely on a town crier.


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## garza (Aug 19, 2010)

Belize Kriol only began to be taken seriously as a written language a few years ago. I was one of the early advocates of having it declared a separate language because of its distinctive verb formations which set it apart from English. There is now a Kriol dictionary and work on a grammar. Kriol is the first language for thousands of children in Belize and is the common language in the street. 

You've given me an idea. What we need is a newspaper printed in Kriol. It wouldn't have to be large, just something to help preserve the Kriol culture. As with every other project here, the first task is to find an international donor agency willing to provide the funding. 

English is the official language here, with Spanish the first language of about a third of the population. There are also people whose first language is Garifuna, Kekchi, Mopan, Yucatecan, Hindi, two kinds of Chinese, German, and Arabic. Kekchi, Mopan, and Yucatecan are Mayan languages. Our most recent ex Prime Minister is of Palestinian descent.


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## The Backward OX (Aug 19, 2010)

This may go nowhere, but to get ideas about donor agencies you could perhaps talk to maia who goes under the name of mammamaia, lives on Tinian - which you may recall rose to fame towards the end of WW2 - and has a presence here at WF. She’s into obtaining international funding for the kids there and prolly has all manner of ideas on finding international donors. Email will have more luck than a PM. Try this maia3maia@hotmail.com


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## thewordsmith (Aug 19, 2010)

mandax said:


> Glad to hear law schools like journalism majors. I'll just be a lawyer who completely destroys everyone involved with libel. That'll be fun. I'm really just praying there's some sort of subtle grammar mistake on the LSAT I can point out to win brownie points.



Lawyers need to be able to write coherently. It is assumed that, in order to successfully matriculate with a degree in journalism, a person will have learned a certain level of competency in grammar and writing. Too many attorneys seem to be functioning at a fifth grade level of competency and, somewhere along the way, law schools figured out their students weren't likely to get any better once they entered law school than they were when they received their university degree. Most people here are reasonably literate. You probably don't think about your relative degree of literacy and, unless something happens to point it out to you, assume most others are also reasonably literate. Too often, law school grads are not. Therefore, admissions programs like to see some undergrad degree program which demonstrates a likelihood of the student having gleaned a certain level of language and grammar competency. 
And, here's a trivia note: Did you know? Psychologists have ascertained that, if a person has had no exposure to language (a la 'the wild child syndrome') by the time they are around twelve years old, there is very little likelihood that they will ever be able to learn to speak with any degree of competency and those who do manage to learn to speak will not advance to any degree beyond baby babble, no matter how hard they try. The brain is hardwired to accomplish certain tasks but, it is believed, many of those parts of the brain that allow a child to learn to speak and process language (written or oral) stop working, for the most part, once the task is accomplished.


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## thewordsmith (Aug 19, 2010)

mandax said:


> Glad to hear law schools like journalism majors. I'll just be a lawyer who completely destroys everyone involved with libel. That'll be fun. I'm really just praying there's some sort of subtle grammar mistake on the LSAT I can point out to win brownie points.





mandax said:


> That needs to become a word immediately. Not only does it mimic the way people say the phrase, but saying it at a higher, one-word speed makes the word actually sound, well, all over the place.


 
But ... how about just "Alover"? Hmm. No. I guess everyone would think you were looking for Oliver, hm?


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## garza (Aug 19, 2010)

Ox - Thanks. I'll pursue that tip.


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## vangoghsear (Aug 19, 2010)

As a writer of plays, I frequently hear my writing spoken.  You'd be surprised how quickly you learn grammar when being razzed for using it incorrectly.  I'm still just a 3-4.


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## mandax (Aug 19, 2010)

thewordsmith said:


> You probably don't think about your relative degree of literacy and, unless something happens to point it out to you, assume most others are also reasonably literate. Too often, law school grads are not.


 
You're probably right.  I tend to think of my competition really highly, which I guess is a good mentality to have, but it also really stresses me the hell out.  Because I'm always around English/journalism majors who lose a ton of points on papers for missing commas, I've come to expect that attention to grammatical detail as the norm for people.  But then I see a billboards with the wrong "your" or signs that butcher the spelling of words, and I realize I'm mistaken.


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## garza (Aug 19, 2010)

As an English major let me point out that we are the ones who hold the keys to unlock the truth and if everyone would just do as we say there would be world peace and an end to hunger.

And by the way, can you let me have ten bucks till the end of the month?


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## aquablue (Aug 19, 2010)

The Backward OX said:


> I have no idea if I know the rules of grammar or not. I _just _write.



The majority of writers echo your reply my friend. Just tell the tale and be done with it.

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