# Salvation



## curtis (Dec 13, 2015)

I was in a bar not too long ago, and two women entered in order to convert the patrons to their religion. I guess that they thought that people in a tavern need salvation. They converted no one, and we were all relieved when they left. It's difficult to determine what motivates them. I guess salvation is the answer. What motivated these women? Does anybody know?


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## dale (Dec 13, 2015)

you should have asked them to buy you a drink in the name of jesus.


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## curtis (Dec 13, 2015)

dale said:


> you should have asked them to buy you a drink in the name of jesus.



Or I could have said, "Jesus! I could use a drink!" It probably would have helped to invoke the power of a deity in order to get a free drink.


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## escorial (Dec 13, 2015)

religion is a big motivator man....the need to turn you into one of them...


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## Riis Marshall (Dec 14, 2015)

Hello Curtis

In the _Writing Discussion_ forum there is a thread running started by Stormcat titled 'Writing about people you hate'.

In that thread there are a number of posts about why people behave the way they do or, in the theme of this thread, trying to figure out what motivates people to do the things they do.

You may want to check it out.

All the best with your writing.

Warmest regards
Riis


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## Stormcat (Dec 14, 2015)

Were they Jehovah witnesses? if so, they are required to "save" as many people as possible, never mind the fact that Heaven only has room for 700,000 or so people. Mormons, while also required to convert the masses, are polite enough to take the hint when nobody is interested.

I they were just general "Jebus saves!" type people, I guess they were feeling sanctimonious and smug about being "saved" and felt the need to brag.


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## Red Sonja (Dec 14, 2015)

I find the motives I make up for people doing stuff like that are much more interesting than the actual, real-life motives. So that's how I handle it pretty much. Like, they're working for the cops to try to find a serial killer; they're freaky prostitutes who show they're ready to meet more clients by entering the bar with tracts; they're time-traveling data-collection robots from the distant future -- and things of that nature. 

It's drinking that's the important thing, not how other people in the bar are behaving. What, are people in a bar supposed to act normal? IF FREAKS CAN'T DO THEIR THING IN A BAR WHERE CAN THEY DO THEIR THING?!


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## shadowwalker (Dec 14, 2015)

Maybe I've mellowed over the years, but I wouldn't find them any more irritating than the drunk who thinks he's God's gift to women. You decline politely at first, and if they persist, you get more forceful. One meets all kinds of irritations - shrugging them off is easiest on one's blood pressure.


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## dale (Dec 14, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> Maybe I've mellowed over the years, but I wouldn't find them any more irritating than the drunk who thinks he's God's gift to women. You decline politely at first, and if they persist, you get more forceful. One meets all kinds of irritations - shrugging them off is easiest on one's blood pressure.


oh yeah. give me a more than a few whiskeys in a bar and at least 1/2 the people in the bar would be
longing for a jehovahs witness to walk in.


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## Stormcat (Dec 14, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> Maybe I've mellowed over the years, but I wouldn't find them any more irritating than the drunk who thinks he's God's gift to women. You decline politely at first, and if they persist, you get more forceful. One meets all kinds of irritations - shrugging them off is easiest on one's blood pressure.



And if that's what they do while drunk...


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## dale (Dec 14, 2015)

but i can see why a religious person in a bar preaching would be irritating. one time in a bar i had to deal
with one of those wretched global warming religion fanatics preaching and i just so wanted to bust him in
his mouth. don't no one wanna hear that kind of insane zealotry while drinking.


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## Stormcat (Dec 14, 2015)

dale said:


> but i can see why a religious person in a bar preaching would be irritating. one time in a bar i had to deal
> with one of those wretched global warming religion fanatics preaching and i just so wanted to bust him in
> his mouth. don't no one wanna hear that kind of insane zealotry while drinking.



Guy probably drives a hummer.


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## dale (Dec 14, 2015)

Stormcat said:


> Guy probably drives a hummer.



he probably really didn't. he probably rode a bicycle. it was downtown. and it really wasn't the last time i was in
a bar, it was a couple years ago. i loved the bar because it was a microbeer bar and their IPA was outstanding,
but most of the people that went there was his type of people. so really? i was kind of the outsider there. my wife
at the time had to kind of drag me out of there because she knew our "discussion" was escalating into something
ugly. but yeah. i don't think anyone going to a bar to have a few drinks and relax really wants to hear "preaching"
of any kind. but....it happens.


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## Phil Istine (Dec 14, 2015)

Well I suppose that there were people in the bar seeking spirit - then the misunderstandings started.
The only time I've seen people proffering their religion in a bar was when the Salvation Army used to come in selling "The War Cry" and seeking donations.  They were harmless enough really and very polite.
It does stretch my tolerance when people get pushy with their religious beliefs.  I had the serious misfortune to be raised as a Jehovah's Witness and the only way to get out was to leave home at 16.  There are no dignified exits with cults or cult-like organisations.  It's all or nothing.  Forty two years later and my father still only talks to me if it's unavoidable - quite easy as we are two hundred miles apart.
I don't have a problem with religion per se - just some people's application of it.


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## Stormcat (Dec 14, 2015)

dale said:


> he probably really didn't. he probably rode a bicycle. it was downtown. and it really wasn't the last time i was in
> a bar, it was a couple years ago. i loved the bar because it was a microbeer bar and their IPA was outstanding,
> but most of the people that went there was his type of people. so really? i was kind of the outsider there. my wife
> at the time had to kind of drag me out of there because she knew our "discussion" was escalating into something
> ...



I was at an Ice cream parlor once and somebody started "preaching" about how vaccines were evil. My entire family used every ounce of our self-restraint that day.


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## Stormcat (Dec 14, 2015)

Phil Istine said:


> Well I suppose that there were people in the bar seeking spirit - then the misunderstandings started.
> The only time I've seen people proffering their religion in a bar was when the Salvation Army used to come in selling "The War Cry" and seeking donations.  They were harmless enough really and very polite.
> It does stretch my tolerance when people get pushy with their religious beliefs.  I had the serious misfortune to be raised as a Jehovah's Witness and the only way to get out was to leave home at 16.  There are no dignified exits with cults or cult-like organisations.  It's all or nothing.  Forty two years later and my father still only talks to me if it's unavoidable - quite easy as we are two hundred miles apart.
> I don't have a problem with religion per se - just some people's application of it.



Glad to hear you got out.


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## BobtailCon (Dec 14, 2015)

When someone believes in something so strongly, whether there's evidence or not, they feel the need to spread it to others. When you believe in a religion that teaches the one way to heaven, you feel as if it's your duty to save everyone you can. The problem is that there's hundreds of religions that claim they are the correct way to this "heaven."


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## dale (Dec 14, 2015)

BobtailCon said:


> When someone believes in something so strongly, whether there's evidence or not, they feel the need to spread it to others. When you believe in a religion that teaches the one way to heaven, you feel as if it's your duty to save everyone you can. The problem is that there's hundreds of religions that claim they are the correct way to this "heaven."


same with any philosophy, political ideology, or basic whim. even though i'm a christian?
 i don't much care for the evangelical types. those people just let any ol' dipshit to join their group.


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## Plasticweld (Dec 14, 2015)

As someone who used to be involved in the ministry and still is active as a councilor I find that many can scoff at God when things are bright and shiny and all seems right with the world. 

When you lose someone you love through death, when your marriage is falling a part, when your sick and just don't know, and have lost hope.  Turning to God at those times never seems as ridiculous as it does when the weather is good. 


I get to deal with all sorts of problems, none of them pretty none of them comfortable. Turning to God is to me far more viable and has produced far more results than any other method I have seen. 


When someone asks me if God is real I can point to lots of things from past experience where he was the answer.  If someone needs help I will be there to help show them what the word of God says and how he intended for you to deal with such problems.


If someone has no desire to know God then that  is their choice. I have found from past experience people find God when their looking for him and not because he could be bought for $19.99 on late night tv or is shoved down their throats.


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## aj47 (Dec 14, 2015)

I believe that whatever the answer is for you, *you* need to find it. No one else can know you like you do. It's like anything else, we can share what works for us, but, ultimately, each person finds their own answer.  Or not.  Some people don't want an answer.  

This is why I love the Presbyterians so much, even though I'm not one.  King James I of England had the Bible translated to English so that people could read it for themselves and not rely on the clergy to interpret it for them.  That also spurred public education in that part of the world--so people could learn to read and read the Bible.

Life is full of questions that each individual has to answer for themselves.  For some, God is the answer to a multitude of questions.


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## BobtailCon (Dec 14, 2015)

Plasticweld said:


> When you lose someone you love through death, when your marriage is falling a part, when your sick and just don't know, and have lost hope.  Turning to God at those times never seems as ridiculous as it does when the weather is good.



I don't want this to turn into a debate (Da Rules), but it doesn't seem honest for people to turn to a religion when they are weak and vulnerable.


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## dale (Dec 14, 2015)

BobtailCon said:


> I don't want this to turn into a debate (Da Rules), but it doesn't seem honest for people to turn to a religion when they are weak and vulnerable.



people are ALWAYS weak and vulnerable. some of them just don't get it because they wrap 
themselves in security blankets.  the religious person understands that a security blanket is a 
false sense of safety. it can be eaten by moths. eroded by weather.  eaten by wolves. doused
 in alcohol and burned. whatever. the truly spiritual person has found actual security is only truly 
known within. but....i'm not trying to be an evangelist. i'm simply too snobby. i don't want atheist losers in my clique.


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## BobtailCon (Dec 14, 2015)

dale said:


> i don't want atheist losers in my clique.



Right back at ya, dweeb!


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## Stormcat (Dec 15, 2015)

dale said:


> i don't want atheist losers in my clique.



You do realize "Atheist" and "Loser" are not mutually exclusive, right?


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## aj47 (Dec 15, 2015)

BobtailCon said:


> I don't want this to turn into a debate (Da Rules), but it doesn't seem honest for people to turn to a religion when they are weak and vulnerable.



I am raising my children as non-religious.  Not atheist, but respecting all religions with the idea they can choose.  That said, my son had to have brain surgery when he was thirteen.  He was looking for the answer to *why* he had to suffer. He didn't pick God but was offered that option, along with others, by the hospital chaplain. He chose to believe that random bad luck was the cause, and not some Divine Plan.  I'm okay with that.  I would have been okay with the Divine Plan idea, too.  

I think that people in these types of situations aren't being force-fed God, but sometimes, people choose to take comfort in the idea.


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## Stormcat (Dec 15, 2015)

I think the main irritation with the evangelizing types is that they are essentially selling a product no one needs or wants.

Most people, any flavor of religious or atheist, are happy in their spiritual decision. They've reached their conclusions about God and the Universe, and live life to the best of their ability. In comes the "salespeople" pushing a whole new mindset which radically disrupts the happy person's method of thinking about existence. Humans do not like such big disruptions. Ya ever notice on how people "find God" when they are at a low point in their life? it's because the mental upset caused by adopting a whole new mindset about the universe is apparently less than the suffering they are currently going through.

Back to the bar. Most people in there were probably feeling pretty good. They're among friends, in a familiar place, drinking things that appease the palate. In come two women who Try to sell them an idea, and nobody wants to buy. From a marketing standpoint, they made a huge mistake going in there. The potential customers are already happy. People only buy a product when they have a need to fulfill, be it physical, psychological, or even ideological. Happy people make poor customers because all their needs are currently being met. Even if the project is completely intangible, you need to sell where there is a need. I often wondered why these Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons didn't get into televangelism. There will always be people searching for "god" but why waste all that energy trying to find them when they can come to you?


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## JustRob (Dec 15, 2015)

BobtailCon said:


> I don't want this to turn into a debate (Da Rules), but it doesn't seem honest for people to turn to a religion when they are weak and vulnerable.



I can see your point but I've heard that they get forgiven for doing it.

I get regular newletters from the Salvation Army. In one they mentioned how someone was helped by them and that person remarked that never once did they mention God or religion. There's no need for them to do that unless someone actually asks them why they do what they do. I have faith but consider most religions to be too much of a package deal with other stuff thrown in. I definitely wouldn't join a religion that insisted that one play a round of golf every week, for example. (how's that for keeping to Da Rules?) There's concern in the UK about parents who take up religion just long enough to get their children into a Church of England school and then they are never seen in church again. My angel and I were married in a registry office because she was proud that she wasn't a hypocrite, as she put it. That's an atheist taking religion more seriously than its alleged followers. 

Regardless of what we may or may not believe, I think that the important thing is to be tolerant, even to people who like to talk about religion. Once at a social event someone told us that they'd moved to Cornwall because they'd prayed for guidance on it beforehand. Really, God agreed that Cornwall was the best place for them to be? Just don't ask. No, smile and change the subject fast.


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## dale (Dec 15, 2015)

astroannie said:


> I am raising my children as non-religious.


me and my kid's mom decided we'd leave it up to the kid, also. her mom's a pagan. i'm a christian.
when she's with me, she goes to church, but she likes it. she's kind of an extrovert and so sees church
as a chance to show off, really. i don't know if her mom does the pagan thing with her or not. her
pagan rituals always seemed like private things. there was no fellowship to them, so i doubt she does.


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## Aquarius (Dec 16, 2015)

BobtailCon said:


> I don't want this to turn into a debate (Da Rules), but it doesn't seem honest for people to turn to a religion when they are weak and vulnerable.



I believe it is exactly the right thing for people to do when they are feeling weak and vulnerable. When religious organisations take advance of people in such situations, that's the only thing that - in my view - is wrong. The way I understand the matter is as follows:

German folk wisdom says: ‘When the need is greatest, God is nearest.’ It is true that in times of suffering our individual soul and that of our world draws ever closer to the Divine. Yes, it is sad that this should be necessary, but undoubtedly this too happens for good reasons and fulfils a wise higher purpose, the same as everything else in our world. One of the greatest mysteries of our earthly existence has always been why there is so much suffering on this plane of life, but the reasons for this are also slowly revealing themselves. For as long as things are going smoothly, the earthly self happily marches along on its own. In the normal course of events, only in difficult times when we are at the end of our tether, do we go down on our knees and from somewhere miraculously comes the inspiration to ask for help from above. When we do, lo and behold, it does come. This brings human souls back into closer contact with God. 

Wise ones, who have found healing and are now healers in their own right, have learnt from their mistakes of the past and make every effort to remain in touch with their God or Highest Self at all times. They trust this part of their being because their own experiences of the past have taught them that this is indeed the part that knows the way of all things and has the answers to every question we may ever care to ask. Because it is as much part of us as we are part of it, it has always been with us and therefore knows every aspect of the whole of our past, present and future. 

Whenever we turn to it and seek its advice, much good can come from any kind of apparent evil. With its help, it is possible to find ways of resolving any problem and healing all our relationships, even or maybe especially the most difficult ones. When we patiently endure whatever our Karma of previous lifetimes and this one has brought to us and make a genuine effort at following our inner guidance, the Universal law of compensation sees to it that in the end there will be some kind of reward, which can be great when it eventually comes. And if it happens in the form of increased inner strength and understanding, as well as faith and trust in ourselves and the goodness of life, that surely is the most wonderful gain anyone could hope and wish for. 

From ‘Why Is There So Much Suffering In Our World?’

‘Healers And Healing’

* * * ​


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## BobtailCon (Dec 16, 2015)

Aquarius said:


> I believe it is exactly the right thing for people to do when they are feeling weak and vulnerable. When religious organisations take advance of people in such situations, that's the only thing that - in my view - is wrong. The way I understand the matter is as follows:
> 
> German folk wisdom says: ‘When the need is greatest, God is nearest.’ It is true that in times of suffering our individual soul and that of our world draws ever closer to the Divine. Yes, it is sad that this should be necessary, but undoubtedly this too happens for good reasons and fulfils a wise higher purpose, the same as everything else in our world. One of the greatest mysteries of our earthly existence has always been why there is so much suffering on this plane of life, but the reasons for this are also slowly revealing themselves. For as long as things are going smoothly, the earthly self happily marches along on its own. In the normal course of events, only in difficult times when we are at the end of our tether, do we go down on our knees and from somewhere miraculously comes the inspiration to ask for help from above. When we do, lo and behold, it does come. This brings human souls back into closer contact with God.
> 
> ...



Religious beliefs, whether you believe them or not, are personal and are not yet rooted in science. By bringing someone into a religion, you ARE taking advantage of them.


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## Kevin (Dec 16, 2015)

What does that mean, "bringing them in"? Are we talking offering it as an option, or bound and gagged?


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## dale (Dec 16, 2015)

Kevin said:


> What does that mean, "bringing them in"? Are we talking offering it as an option, or bound and gagged?



yeah. that's kind of like saying if i pick a chick up in the bar and i "bring her in" to my bed, that i'm "taking advantage of her". kind of a nonsense thing to say.


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## LOLeah (Dec 16, 2015)

We used to have Jehovah's Witnesses coming around a lot. That's what we get for being polite and not telling them to scram like a lot of people do. My husband and I would stand for 10 minutes at a time, smiling and nodding and saying "Oh that's so interesting". They finally gave up on us. They are sly and send the really sweet old people around to recruit. That or that generation are what makes up the majority of that belief system nowadays.


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## Kevin (Dec 16, 2015)

> yeah. that's kind of like...


You realize that if the Jesus Wars happen I'm still going to have to kill you? Just saying... you know, in case.


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## BobtailCon (Dec 16, 2015)

dale said:


> yeah. that's kind of like saying if i pick a chick up in the bar and i "bring her in" to my bed, that i'm "taking advantage of her". kind of a nonsense thing to say.



I was having difficulty posting and typing correctly, I was sitting outside in freezing temperatures on lunch break trying to type on my phone. What I mean is indoctrinating someone into a religion while they're in a weak, fragile state is taking advantage of them. Not taking advantage in the sense of picking up a drunk "chick," but taking advantage of their poor mental state to indoctrinate them to your beliefs. 

This is arguable for some, but a person who's loved one just died needs consolation and comfort, not a religion. They can have a religion if they wish to, but it should be a decision that THEY make when they have a level head. I'm going to stop because I don't want to get hit with a ban hammer :boxing:


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## dale (Dec 16, 2015)

BobtailCon said:


> I was having difficulty posting and typing correctly, I was sitting outside in freezing temperatures on lunch break trying to type on my phone. What I mean is indoctrinating someone into a religion while they're in a weak, fragile state is taking advantage of them. Not taking advantage in the sense of picking up a drunk "chick," but taking advantage of their poor mental state to indoctrinate them to your beliefs.
> 
> This is arguable for some, but a person who's loved one just died needs consolation and comfort, not a religion. They can have a religion if they wish to, but it should be a decision that THEY make when they have a level head. I'm going to stop because I don't want to get hit with a ban hammer :boxing:



what i hate are those psychics that pull that crap on people who have lost loved ones. i'll watch that crap on tv
with them having those people in tears with the psychic telling them they are in touch with their dead relatives. 
it makes me sick.


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## BobtailCon (Dec 16, 2015)

dale said:


> what i hate are those psychics that pull that crap on people who have lost loved ones. i'll watch that crap on tv
> with them having those people in tears with the psychic telling them they are in touch with their dead relatives.
> it makes me sick.



I agree with you on that one. My mother watches those shows, and when I tell her it's bullshit, she just says "how do you know?"

Well, they've been pulling that same shit for decades, that's how.


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## aj47 (Dec 17, 2015)

BobtailCon said:


> This is arguable for some, but a person who's loved one just died needs consolation and comfort, not a religion. They can have a religion if they wish to, but it should be a decision that THEY make when they have a level head. I'm going to stop because I don't want to get hit with a ban hammer :boxing:



I think, if the person asks, then it is wholly appropriate to share one's faith.  Unasked, no.  "How did you cope with Aunt Tillie's death, Uncle Bob?" can be answered honestly, even if that answer includes faith.  

I NEVER support trying to convert someone unwillingly.  Even if they are happy and healthy and have no immediate crises.  Certain religions believe their deity told them to try to convert the Great Unwashed.  To me, that crosses the line of religious freedom.  

I hope I'm a bit clearer.


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## Kevin (Dec 17, 2015)

Why those women really went into the bar can only be speculated on. Was it because it is expected of them, or because they are driven? Or was it because they are expected to become driven? I wonder how uncomfortable they were .

Why are those men in the bar? Again, speculation...

What is the goal of your agenda? Did you even know you had one? Does it require you to lie to others? Yourself?  Don't answer me.


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## BobtailCon (Dec 17, 2015)

astroannie said:


> I think, if the person asks, then it is wholly appropriate to share one's faith.  Unasked, no.  "How did you cope with Aunt Tillie's death, Uncle Bob?" can be answered honestly, even if that answer includes faith.



I agree, I was talking about a situation like; "I know it's been hard on you, and though I COULD comfort you, you should really turn to Jesus." Or something like that.


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## escorial (Dec 18, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> Maybe I've mellowed over the years, but I wouldn't find them any more irritating than the drunk who thinks he's God's gift to women. You decline politely at first, and if they persist, you get more forceful. One meets all kinds of irritations - shrugging them off is easiest on one's blood pressure.




have we met before....


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