# Writing Poetry: Syllabic Meter



## Ariel (Sep 1, 2016)

It's that time once again fellow poets.  This month's Pip Challenge is over syllabic meter and so I thought I would discuss this with everyone.

Let's begin by defining a syllable. According to Google a syllable is: "a unit of pronunciation having one vowel sound, with or without surrounding consonants, forming the whole or a part of a word."  The distinction here is that it is divided by vowel _sounds.  _As discussed in last month's thread on assonance (http://www.writingforums.com/threads/167317-Writing-Poetry-Assonance) diphthongs are vowel sounds, usually formed by two vowels together, which moves from one vowel sound to another as it is pronounced.  For example: water has two syllables (wa-ter) whereas ethereal has four syllables (e-the-re-al) and the diphthong (ea) is divided into two syllables. 

Syllabic meter is a metrical convention which relies on syllable count.  Syllabic verse is a poetic form having a fixed or constrained number of syllables per line while stress, quantity, or tone play a distinctly secondary role — or no role at all — in the verse structure (Wikipedia).

Perhaps the most famous form that employs syllabic count is the Japanese form the haiku.  Haiku employs a constrained line and syllable count and focuses on nature.

In order to double check syllable count I suggest using a good dictionary.


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## midnightpoet (Sep 1, 2016)

To clarify, we need to be consistent, like ten lines with ten syllables per line.  Or can it be ten lines, five with ten syllables alternating with five lines with seven syllables? Or just needs to be what you say it is?

Thanks


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## Ariel (Sep 1, 2016)

Well, haiku is five-seven-five syllables. There's also syllabic poetry based on the Fibonacci sequence.  For the PiP challenge I suggest having a consistent syllable count.


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## aj47 (Sep 1, 2016)

Okay, now I'm confused.  Are you saying a haiku would or would not be suitable for this month's challenge?


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## Firemajic (Sep 1, 2016)

I thought "WATER" had 2 syllables..... ?


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## Ariel (Sep 1, 2016)

Sorry, yes--two syllables in water. I'll say it again: getting up at 4 am is not good for your health.



astroannie said:


> Okay, now I'm confused.  Are you saying a haiku would or would not be suitable for this month's challenge?



As far as I'm concerned it would work fine. I would ask the other coordinators and judges.


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## Firemajic (Sep 1, 2016)

Hahaa.... okkk, that's ok, amsaw... I was thinking I had waaaay more to learn.... anyway... 

And I do not want haikus as part of the challenge.... there needs to be more than 3 lines to see how well a poet maintains control of the syllable count....


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## aj47 (Sep 1, 2016)

I was using that as a recognizable example. I'm thinking etheree, or nonet or something a little more challenging.  It's just that I wanted to clear that it didn't *have* to be some homemade matrix of *foo* lines with *bar* syllables per line or the like. Though I'm sure that *would* be acceptable, too.


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## PiP (Sep 1, 2016)

when I googled this earlier 


> [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]2. *Syllabic metre*
> [/FONT]​[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]each line has the same number of syllables but the number of stresses varies[/FONT]



So if I've understood correctly a 5-7-5 syllable count would not be acceptable :scratch:



> *Syllabic metrical systems* have a fixed number of syllables in each line, though there may be a varying number of stresses.


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## Ariel (Sep 1, 2016)

PiP, that's usually correct. However, I found examples in other sources which specifically mention haiku and tanka as syllable count metered forms.


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## Harper J. Cole (Sep 2, 2016)

My understanding was that each line would have the same number of syllables. Perhaps we should take that approach for this challenge, to make the rules easily understood?

HC


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## PiP (Sep 2, 2016)

HarperCole said:


> My understanding was that each line would have the same number of syllables. Perhaps we should take that approach for this challenge, to make the rules easily understood?
> 
> HC



That was my original understanding. However, based on this discussion I've now written a poem based on alternate 4,8,4,8 syllables.


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## Harper J. Cole (Sep 2, 2016)

In either case, best to make it clear in the challenge thread as well, to avoid confusion.

HC


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## Ariel (Sep 2, 2016)

The point of these discussions is meant to be separate from the PiP challenges.  These are meant to include information that can be used separate from the challenge itself.  I would check with rcallaci or Firemajic before submitting something that has alternating syllable patterns.


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## Firemajic (Sep 2, 2016)

The syllable count is up to the poet... as long as the poet specifies what the count is supposed to be... for example"
a 4 line stanza.
line one. 7 syllables
line 2. 7 syllables'
line 3 . 9
line 4.10
the syllable count will be the same, for each stanza..


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## RHPeat (Sep 6, 2016)

*For all concerned Concerning syllabic meter. *

Counting syllables is syllabic meter. There are various ways of counting syllables. i.e. 

by line, 
by stanza, 
by form, 
by progression. (adding or subtracting syllables with each new line) It becomes a progressive pattern.

All of which are counting syllables to form a metric or meter — which means measurement. The measurement of a haiku for instance is commonly thought to be 5/7/5 in the western world. Not so true in Japan however. There are many forms that use a syllable count of some sort. Crapsey's "Cinquain" is another. A "lantern" is another. John Hollander actually invented a syllabic sonnet with 13 lines of 13 syllables. He wrote many of them. Here's one I wrote in 1998

*My Shovel Left There*

The other afternoon, I walked the hillside toward 
the tool-shed before the storm. The sky was grayish ash 
like an old man's beard. Later after the downpour, I 
revisited the backyard where the drips ticked under 
spindled oaks. The toes of my shoes were wet from the heads 
of beaded weeds. I noticed my spade were I'd left it 
pushed down into the turned earth of the mulched garden bed. 
Its single handle stood upright in that drizzled rain. 
The scooped-up bundles of packed sod humped in mangled rows.  
Loam eroded by raindrops. The shovel's edge still cut 
into that space set aside for the beefsteak seedlings. 
I keep seeing that place renewed for the following—
myself there spade after year digging a filled-in hole.

© R. H. Peat — 5/7/98 

Marianne Moore is the one to look at concerning syllabic stanzas. Each line in a stanza might have a different count. But the count is followed in all the following stanzas. She varies it from poem to poem related to the context of the given poem she was writing at the time. Just counting syllable is very ancient. as well as just counting accents. Accentual syllabic became something adapted to English much later; I think it was borrowed from both the Greeks and the French. At any rate the minute you set up any kind of the repetition in the poem you have created a meter in the poem. Rhyme schemes are also meters/ measurements. Versification is also a meter. Stanza are a form of count within the versification. So the number of lines per stanza are a count as a meter (i.e. like couplets, tercets, quatrains, etc) that is repeated in the poem as a metric. 

With the same syllable count to all of the lines; you will get close to the same number of accents to the line. They might not be accentual syllabic however. But it generally forms an easy rhythm to follow when reading aloud. 

If you want to make sure that the lines are not falling into accentual syllabic count use an odd number of syllables per line — like 7 or 9. Iambic meter will always have an even number of syllables because of the foot used as that meter. But with syllabic meter you most likely will have about the same number of accents per line within one or two accents. Now we've talked about it all: by line, by stanza, by form, by progression. Any one these 4 kinds of syllable count will work for a syllable count in the poem you create. 

a poet friend
RH Peat


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## PiP (Sep 6, 2016)

Thanks, Ron.

Excellent explanation. I'd totally lost the plot with this and now believe my entry to the Pip Challenge is incorrect 

Ho hum


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## RHPeat (Sep 6, 2016)

Carole

I don't think you're wrong at all. You have a stanza count with the syllables. You even state it as so. Realize that even a haiku would work if it was in a series. 3 stanzas of 3 lines make 9 lines. So write 3 haiku on the same subject and it becomes the theme of a poem that is 9 lines long. Haiku stanzas are not uncommon at all. If you count the syllables per line you are creating syllabic meter even if they vary per line. If it repeats or progresses you have a pattern of syllables as a meter. 

a poet friend
RH Peat


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## Gumby (Sep 6, 2016)

PiP said:


> Thanks, Ron.
> 
> Excellent explanation. I'd totally lost the plot with this and now believe my entry to the Pip Challenge is incorrect
> 
> Ho hum



From what I've seen, it works.


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## Teb (Sep 13, 2016)

My brain hurts now. I was hoping to make some sense of what's expected from this thread but am more confused now than I was.


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## Harper J. Cole (Sep 13, 2016)

Well, if you take a look at this entry ... link

In every verse, the same syllable pattern is employed. That is to say, 6 syllables in the first line, 6 syllables in the second line, 7 syllables in the third line, 6 syllables in the fourth line.

So you can do something similar, but you can vary the repeating syllable pattern.

HC


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## Ariel (Sep 13, 2016)

Teb said:


> My brain hurts now. I was hoping to make some sense of what's expected from this thread but am more confused now than I was.



Syllabic count meter is exactly what it sounds like--counting syllables instead of relying on stress patterns for the meter.  As for the PiP challenge any further inquiries as to what is required should be asked of Firemajic.


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## PrinzeCharming (Sep 13, 2016)

Teb said:


> My brain hurts now. I was hoping to make some sense of what's expected from this thread but am more confused now than I was.




If it helps any, refer to Poetry Soup's syllable counter. I use this all the time when I write poems, especially for all WF poetry challenges. As you write the poem, you can check the syllable count by pressing Count Syllables. This will help you determine any patterns, i.e. my poem submission is 8,8,8,8. This counter will tell you exactly what you have and it's up to you to change anything necessary to keep a consistent syllabic meter.


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## sas (Sep 18, 2016)

I often write in syllable count. Line breaks are important to have correct...it's not just the number of syllables used; anyone can do that. Count disciplines one to use words concisely; be more selective. It's educational, at the very least, for poets to do as an exercise from time to time.  I do use a syllable counter. Everyone should be aware that regional accents play an important role in how a word sounds, which makes doing it by ear difficult. I know some who knowingly fudge the count due to this. In an interview, Phillip Levine (originally from my city, Detroit) said he falls naturally into a nine count without even trying. He thought it mimicked normal speech.  I'm not certain about that, but also like that count.  Like the discussion.  sas


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## Phil Istine (Sep 18, 2016)

PrinzeCharming said:


> If it helps any, refer to Poetry Soup's syllable counter. I use this all the time when I write poems, especially for all WF poetry challenges. As you write the poem, you can check the syllable count by pressing Count Syllables. This will help you determine any patterns, i.e. my poem submission is 8,8,8,8. This counter will tell you exactly what you have and it's up to you to change anything necessary to keep a consistent syllabic meter.



I'm wondering how reliable that site is.  It reckons that "excavating foundations" is six syllables.
I reckon it's seven:  ex.ca.vat.ing foun.dat.ions  .  OK, maybe some of the dots between syllables could could be moved by one letter, but I just don't see six syllables.


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## PiP (Sep 18, 2016)

Poetry Soup is not reliable in my opinion


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## Phil Istine (Sep 18, 2016)

PiP said:


> Poetry Soup is not reliable in my opinion



I agree.  Upon checking further, (following on from my post above), the word it baulked at was "foundations".  It said that it was two syllables.  I checked again and it reckoned (correctly) that "nation" was also two syllables.  It seems a decent site, but such things need human scrutiny too.


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## sas (Sep 18, 2016)

Question:  What syllable counter is best?  I often write in count.


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## JustRob (Sep 18, 2016)

Oh, don't tempt me. I'm trying to kick the habit but still fretted greatly over including two nine syllable lines in an eight syllable meter in the poem that I posted in haste in the general forum today. I didn't even know about the challenge then, thank heavens. 

I'm just passing through here, wondering what poets discuss.


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## Ariel (Sep 18, 2016)

I use poetry soup to check syllabic count but will go back and check with a good dictionary--and I try to give the poet the benefit of the doubt which means if it comes up off between what the poet intended and what poetry soup counts then I triple check.


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## Phil Istine (Sep 18, 2016)

Just an addendum to my earlier posts:  www.syllablecount.com also has _foundations_ as two syllables, but www.wordcalc.com has it as three.
I think I'll tear out what's left of my hair.


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## PiP (Sep 18, 2016)

sas said:


> Question:  What syllable counter is best?  I often write in count.



None, they all vary. My suggestion - use a dictionary  Did Shakespeare and other great poets use PoetrySoup?.... no 



amsawtell said:


> I try to give the poet the benefit of the doubt which means if it comes up off between what the poet intended and what poetry soup counts then I triple check.



Yes, please


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