# High School and College Ruins Writers!



## PhotonGuy (Mar 12, 2015)

Excuse me while I bash the education system and I say this with all due respect to people who work in the education system and especially those that teach writing classes. As a matter of fact, discussion and feedback with anybody who does teach writing classes in high school or especially college would be most welcome. I would like to hear about (or in this case read about since this is a message board) your point of view. I welcome, even encourage people to disagree with me because I like challenges and sometimes when people do disagree it changes my viewpoint and I grow. Anyway here goes, excuse me while I vent. 
     In high school and especially in college if you're writing an essay for a test or for a project, what they often do, or at least they did it when I was in high school and college, and which I think is a bad thing is that they require your essay to be a certain length. They require you to use so many pages to write your essay. I believe that is a bad idea because making your point is much more important than writing pages and pages of essay. Why should you write longer if you don't need to in order to say what you've got to say? Why make your essay longer if you don't have to? What often happens in such a case is that a student will fill the essay with extra garbage just to stretch it out to meet the length requirement. With any kind of writing, making it longer to say what you've got to say is inefficient and sloppy. When students get used to filling in extra pages just to fulfill the length requirement that will lead to bad habits when they will say or write more than they have to in order to make a point, not just with essays but with any form of communication including internet forums such as this one! I've got some experience with creative writing and to be a good writer you've got to be a good reader. When you're a good reader you understand how other readers will react to what you write. A reader is not going to want to read pages and pages of slop, especially when it becomes redundant, because its annoying to read. I've had that experience myself with internet forums when people don't want to read my posts because they're too long. Now, hopefully I haven't taken up too much space with this post, I tried to make it short to say what I had to say but if its too long that's because of the bad habit that I developed of taking longer than I have to in order to say something. Hope I didn't wear anybody's patience out with this post for being too long.
       Thank you all for reading this. I would like to get some feedback and if you disagree as I said above, that's welcome. This is one of those times when I want people to disagree with me and I sometimes like my viewpoints to be challenged.


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## BeastlyBeast (Mar 12, 2015)

Usually teachers have low expectations... More often than not, they're asking for an essay on a pretty broad or easily-researched topic and, on top of that, only ask for 4-6 pages. Group the broad subjec and low page expectation with double spacing and .5" indents, and you'll fill up those pages in no time and see it's almost no work. It was easy for me to do this with the Great Gatsby not too long ago for 11th grade, and I barely understood the book! Plus, i believe one needs to separate essay and research paper writing from fiction writing. I personally think if we wrote research papers like we write fiction, our papers would lose a lot of credibility. At the same time writing fiction in the same meticulous manner we write research papers, fiction would be frankly boring as hell. Don't get me wrong, some writers plan out every detail of their book like we would a paper, and become bestsellers or write pretty good novels. That's great. But, if everybody wrote every fiction thing in the same way, I think we'd lose interest, because no matter what, we'd always be able to say "I could do that." Anyone can write a research paper, not everyone can write a fiction novel. One needs to separate the two. *TLDR: Writing teachers' guidelines help you with paper writing - the advice should not be taken to heart regarding fiction or pastime writing.*


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## Jeko (Mar 12, 2015)

> Why should you write longer if you don't need to in order to say what you've got to say?



It tells you that you need more to say.



> What often happens in such a case is that a student will fill the essay with extra garbage just to stretch it out to meet the length requirement



That's the student's fault for not having enough to say.



> When students get used to filling in extra pages just to fulfill the length requirement that will lead to bad habits when they will say or write more than they have to in order to make a point, not just with essays but with any form of communication including internet forums such as this one!



Again, that's their fault for not having enough to say.



> I tried to make it short to say what I had to say but if its too long that's because of the bad habit that I developed of taking longer than I have to in order to say something.



Which is your fault for not having enough to say.

A minimum is given because the person giving it wants you to fill it with_ quality. _If you can say what you want to in half of what they require, then you just need to say twice as much. It's not hard; it just requires more creative thought. But most teenagers would rather pad out their good stuff into mediocrity than work on getting more good stuff out, as padding is much less brain-intensive. I've experienced this myself - but I need high grades to meet my Oxford offer, so mentally slacking is a luxury I can't afford myself anymore when working.

The problem for people who want to explore the issues that essay questions bring up in depth is that there's also a _maximum_, and that's much harder to work to when you've got far more to say than you can. The same is even more true in fiction; you can't keep the readers attention by describing every detail and action. You have to be selective in order for your words to come to life on the page in a way that engages the reader and keeps the story moving.

Anyway, don't blame the education system for giving you a bar that you didn't meet.


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## Sam (Mar 12, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Excuse me while I bash the education system and I say this with all due respect to people who work in the education system and especially those that teach writing classes. As a matter of fact, discussion and feedback with anybody who does teach writing classes in high school or especially college would be most welcome. I would like to hear about (or in this case read about since this is a message board) your point of view. I welcome, even encourage people to disagree with me because I like challenges and sometimes when people do disagree it changes my viewpoint and I grow. Anyway here goes, excuse me while I vent.
> In high school and especially in college if you're writing an essay for a test or for a project, what they often do, or at least they did it when I was in high school and college, and which I think is a bad thing is that they require your essay to be a certain length. They require you to use so many pages to write your essay. I believe that is a bad idea because making your point is much more important than writing pages and pages of essay. Why should you write longer if you don't need to in order to say what you've got to say? Why make your essay longer if you don't have to? What often happens in such a case is that a student will fill the essay with extra garbage just to stretch it out to meet the length requirement. With any kind of writing, making it longer to say what you've got to say is inefficient and sloppy. When students get used to filling in extra pages just to fulfill the length requirement that will lead to bad habits when they will say or write more than they have to in order to make a point, not just with essays but with any form of communication including internet forums such as this one! I've got some experience with creative writing and to be a good writer you've got to be a good reader. When you're a good reader you understand how other readers will react to what you write. A reader is not going to want to read pages and pages of slop, especially when it becomes redundant, because its annoying to read. I've had that experience myself with internet forums when people don't want to read my posts because they're too long. Now, hopefully I haven't taken up too much space with this post, I tried to make it short to say what I had to say but if its too long that's because of the bad habit that I developed of taking longer than I have to in order to say something. Hope I didn't wear anybody's patience out with this post for being too long.
> Thank you all for reading this. I would like to get some feedback and if you disagree as I said above, that's welcome. This is one of those times when I want people to disagree with me and I sometimes like my viewpoints to be challenged.



First: paragraphs. Learn how to use them. When you pay attention to structure, it lends your argument so much more clarity and credence. 

Second: you sound like you're still in high school. If indeed you are, that makes you qualified to the sum of precisely zero to speak about college and/or university. If I've misjudged you, I apologise, but this reads like the rant of a high-schooler. 

Word counts are designed to separate the wheat from the chaff. Any Joe Soap can write a 500-word essay and offer a half-hearted answer to a question, but only students who want to learn and do well can muster together a 3,500-word essay and gave a comprehensive answer instead. 

Not being able to meet a word count tells your teacher that you (a) didn't do enough reading, (b) didn't understand the question, (c) don't have enough to say, or (d) all of the above. 

Bad writers use filler to meet word count. Good writers don't need to. I've written over a hundred academic essays. On almost every occasion, I had to cut words because of being over the limit. Not through filler, but by having too much to say. 

Schools and colleges only ruin people who think they're unique and should be exempt from the standardised systems that everyone else has to adhere to.


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## MamaStrong (Mar 12, 2015)

My only issue with being given a certain length and such strong requirements is that students tend to focus on that, rather than the quality of their papers. For me though, I never had a problem meeting requirements. Sometimes I have to much to say.


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## aj47 (Mar 12, 2015)

As a current college student, I feel I have at least a clue about this.

They're right--if you can snap out an answer in two paragraphs, you're not taking the question seriously enough or answering it in enough detail. 

I have a "snowflake" story.  When I was in sixth grade, my English teacher asked the class to write a page about something-or-another.  At the time, I was nearly blind (meet me in my inbox if you want the details).  So instead of trying to write and revise, I composed in my head and then, after a half hour of staring at nothing and so on, I wrote a short paragraph that answered the question.  My sixth-grade religion instructor later heard the English instructor ranting about how I managed to say more in my paragraph than others did in their pages. She didn't know how to grade me.  The moral is, don't be THAT student. I'm sure I got lower grades in benefit-of-the-doubt cases from then on from her.  But at the age of eleven, I didn't know any better. 

I presume you're older and _do_ know better.  If you aren't challenged by your classwork, you're probably doing it wrong.  Whether it's writing or programming or trigonometry.  

Another story, this one from Robert A. Heinlein.  A candidate is given a jar and a packet of ten beans.  He is sent to a darkened room and told to put the jar between his feet and try to drop the beans into it.  The protagonist only gets a few beans in, but he sees people returning with jars containing most or all of their beans.  It then occurs to him that maybe they aren't testing the ability to drop beans into a jar, but integrity. Sometimes, you need to ask yourself, what is the lesson you should be taking away from a particular assignment.  It may not be the first thing that comes to mind.


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## bookmasta (Mar 12, 2015)

So in declaration of mocking our education system, you're basing this primarily on the fact essays have a word count? As an English lit major who has to do a lot of essays, I can say that is a false premise. Words counts are there for a reason. Sure, they're sometimes too long, but if you know what you're writing and you expand on said topic enough, you'll always go over the word count and then some. If you're afraid of word count or essays, then I suggest you not pursue a master's or doctorate's degree.


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## InstituteMan (Mar 12, 2015)

I'm not a huge fan of the educational system in the US, but that's mostly because it doesn't force students to write _enough_ for my liking. [aside: it also all too often doesn't involve math at a conceptual level or a proper understanding of science, but that's a rant for another day]

As someone who has devoted a good chunk of his working life to mentoring young lawyers (a job that basically involves a vast amount of writing), I have been dismayed by the general lack of even basic grammar skills in what is supposed to be the cream of the educational crop. I've had to teach a lot of basic writing lessons to people with 20 years of schooling. I've had to teach such basic things as how sentences in English do, in fact, require a subject and a verb, even if you stuff a lot of legalese jargon in before the period. Personally, I think the answer lies with more practice and harsher grading, but no one seems to like that suggestion other than those of us who have had to clean up the mess post-graduation.


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## TDKoon (Mar 12, 2015)

I think that honestly the bad habits formed by students from the length requirement applies primarily to students that are lazy or trying to take shortcuts. The length requirements fit with the source material requirements in that they are intended to encourage the students to do more research, understand their topic further and communicate more of that information to the reader. Those students that form bad habits from these lengths are normally those that attempt to, instead of including more information, fill this word count with what my high school English teacher referred to as "fluff". A good teacher can spot this immediately and would change your grade to reflect that as most of mine did while I was in school.


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## popsprocket (Mar 13, 2015)

I've written dozens of academic essays in my life and all I can say is that struggling to _reach _the word limit has never been a problem.

If you have the proper understanding of a topic it's more likely to be a struggle to keep your essay concise. That's always been the purpose of word limits. They teach you to make arguments that are in-depth and compelling without allowing your response to meander and repeat itself.

High school and tertiary education doesn't ruin writers, it makes them better.


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## InnerFlame00 (Mar 13, 2015)

I had a college professor who had a policy that I really respected on this very subject. The first day I was there he said something like this:

"When I assign you a paper I will give you a vague guideline on how long it could be and I won't nickle and dime you about word count.  If I say 1,000 words then that is because generally I've found that for that subject 1,000 words is usually needed. Going well below (or above...overlong is not better!) usually will result in a low grade. However if you can write a good paper that is 500 words, then I am more than willing to be pleasantly surprised!"

I really preferred this method. Word count is a good guideline, but it's not the be-all end-all guarantee for a well researched paper. Personally, I DESPISED word limits on essays. I was always a good student and I got mostly A's and B's on those papers.  I wasn't what you would call a "lazy" student by any stretch of the imagination. I worked very hard and enjoyed learning. But sometimes I just didn't need 1,000 words to make a good essay when 700 was perfect. 

I have to say I am glad to leave the world of research papers behind. Despite the fact that I got good grades man did they ever bore the heck out of me.


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## Deafmute (Mar 13, 2015)

its frustrating as a student to have rules like this. Its frustrating because you don't want to write the paper, at least this is the most common reason. The fact is the length of paper that is required at any time in just about any undergrad or high school class is never long enough. The format they are trying to prepare you for, requires a level of depth and content that it would exceed the page number of all but the most outrageous professor assignments. So yea, most student are not able to fill all that with meaningful content, but they will TRY. that is the purpose of the word count. It forces the student to try to do more than they can or would if left to their own devices. That extra effort is usually wasted, because the student searches for the easiest way to fill the count. Again they do this because they don't really want to write the paper.

This is the real failure with our education system. We fail to create content that excites young people. As long as education is systematic and feels like a chore it is never going to yield good results.


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## Riis Marshall (Mar 13, 2015)

Hello PhotonGuy

The absolute best teacher of English Literature I've ever had the experience of knowing taught an A-Level course I sat at a college in the wilds of Lincolnshire. He had a PhD in English Lit and I still use some of the things he taught me twenty years later almost every time I sit down to write. And some of the elements of my style derive from my high school English teachers whom I haven't seen in more than sixty years.

You must have been severely traumatized by an English teacher somewhere along the way because, although I haven't counted your words, you could probably have said what you wanted to say with about one-third the words you used.

Then allow me to get just a little metaphysical here: If you know people are screwing you up then you must know what you need to do not to be screwed up so just do it.

If you set me an essay on almost any sort of topic relating to the meaning of life, the universe and everything and set an arbitrary minimum of 500, 1,000, 5,000 or even 50,000 words, given a reasonable amount of time I am confident I could complete the assignment (I might struggle if the subject were too restrictive. For example, if you ask me to write an essay outlining the qualifications I think Sarah Palin has to become President of the US or Nigel Farage has to become Prime Minister of the UK, I might struggle to come up with more than about 50 words but that's another issue (sorry, Moderators, I know it's political but I've tried to be even-handed by addressing both sides of the pond)).

Do this as an exercise to hone your writing skills: Starting with your original post title, write three essays of _exactly_ 500, 1,000 and 1,500 words each. See how you get on.

I'm glad we've had this little chat.

All the best with your writing.

Warmest regards
Riis


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## garza (Mar 13, 2015)

What Sam said.


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## Sam (Mar 13, 2015)

Deafmute said:


> its frustrating as a student to have rules like this. Its frustrating because you don't want to write the paper, at least this is the most common reason. The fact is the length of paper that is required at any time in just about any undergrad or high school class is never long enough. The format they are trying to prepare you for, requires a level of depth and content that it would exceed the page number of all but the most outrageous professor assignments. So yea, most student are not able to fill all that with meaningful content, but they will TRY. that is the purpose of the word count. It forces the student to try to do more than they can or would if left to their own devices. That extra effort is usually wasted, because the student searches for the easiest way to fill the count. Again they do this because they don't really want to write the paper.
> 
> This is the real failure with our education system. We fail to create content that excites young people. As long as education is systematic and feels like a chore it is never going to yield good results.



What you have written above succinctly articulates one of the reasons why the world is in the toilet right now. 

I understand that students want to be excited and entertained by the classes they choose, but guess what? Welcome to the real world. You aren't at college/university to be entertained or excited. If you want either of those things, go home and watch television or play video games. 

You're at college/university to learn. Sometimes you learn about things that don't particularly interest you, sometimes you learn about things you have an extreme passion for, but it is up to you (generic) to make them exciting. It isn't kindergarten. If the class doesn't excite you, go home and read around the topic until you find something about it that does. 

Blaming the content, or the manner in which it's delivered, is the typical cop-out of students who think that learning should be 'fun'. Learning is hard work. Long hours, low sleep, high stress, and there's a reason for that. Try telling your boss in the real world that your job isn't fun enough. See how far that gets you (generic). 

It's not the content; it's the students who live in a blinkered reality and think the world owes them something.


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## EmmaSohan (Mar 13, 2015)

Sam said:


> What you have written above succinctly articulates one of the reasons why the world is in the toilet right now.
> 
> I understand that students want to be excited and entertained by the classes they choose, but guess what? Welcome to the real world. You aren't at college/university to be entertained or excited. If you want either of those things, go home and watch television or play video games.
> 
> ...




Are you agreeing with the OP that the educational system does not in general produce talented writers by high school level, depsite considerable time and effort and heartache, and are now raising the question of who is to blame?


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## Sam (Mar 13, 2015)

EmmaSohan said:


> Are you agreeing with the OP that the educational system does not in general produce talented writers by high school level, depsite considerable time and effort and heartache, and are now raising the question of who is to blame?



If you can't find those words in my posts, did I say that? 

Talent, by its very definition, is naturally occurring from birth. It can be nurtured by a school environment that can shape, mould, and give purpose to it, but school itself can never create or produce talent. 

English literature isn't about teaching you how to write, nor is it about letting you go off and do what you want. It's about understanding the intricacies of language and how to analyse and interpret it. It's about giving you tools to understand how and why language is written. It's about learning that things aren't always what they seem. 

What the OP doesn't seem to understand is that he is the one to blame. Like I said above: welcome to the real world. It isn't the teacher's job to give the answers. It's their job to point you (generic) in the right direction and you let you find them for yourself. It isn't their job to explain why it's 2,000 words instead of 500. It just is. Get on with it. Stop blaming the system, stop blaming the teachers, and start asking yourself why you think the system that everyone else has to adhere to should be changed to accommodate you and your self-aggrandisement.


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## BeastlyBeast (Mar 13, 2015)

Sam said:


> Blaming the content, or the manner in which it's delivered, is the typical cop-out of students who think that learning should be 'fun'. Learning is hard work. Long hours, low sleep, high stress, and there's a reason for that. Try telling your boss in the real world that your job isn't fun enough. See how far that gets you (generic).
> 
> It's not the content; it's the students who live in a blinkered reality and think the world owes them something.


My only problem with this is, kids are kids. They're not adults. They're not meant to handle the same things. Frankly, if I had a choice between going to school for the rest of my life and getting a job for the rest of my life, I'd choose a job, for the exact reasons you stated. Teenagers are claimed to need more sleep than babies and they live relatively 'stress-free' lives, yet they're the most stressed people in the world today and I'm willing to bet the majority live on 6 hours of sleep or less. Staying up till midnight studying, waking up at 530 to leave for school at 630, going to 5+ different classes every day. I'll tell you a story, here. A year ago, I tried to do Chemistry Honors work. Keep in mind, this is not collegiate level work, not even close. However, with the level of work they were asking for, coupled with how hard I already found the _standard_ assignments to be, I knew in the back of my mind I wasn't going to do it. Yet, I was told to power through it. It was day after day of slugging through, hating it. Eventually, even while trying to keep up with it I fell behind in the Honors work and by the last day of school I had a s***load left to do. I tried to do it all in one day - still failed, even with my mother helping me. It didn't help that I knew people were disappointed. By the end of the day, when it was all over and I had failed Chemistry Honors, my mother told me that it wasn't that big of a deal and she saw how stressed I was over it. I don't think I'll forget the words she said anytime soon - _"That's the kind of stress you should feel when someone you love dies."_ I don't think adults in the real world feel this kind of stress on a daily basis over their work - if they do, they do damn-near perfect jobs at hiding it. Long hours, low sleep, high stress. Only on the worst of days do I see adults experiencing these things, yet I see high-school kids go through this every day.

I'm not going to tell you that adolescents have it harder than adults. They most certainly do not and, frankly, I think with homeschool opportunities and teachers that can't do or say anything negative to their students without leagal threats, today's schooling is probably easier than ever. But, to expect kids in their youth to go through stuff most adults don't even seem to - and on a daily basis - in preparation for the "real world"...


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## shadowwalker (Mar 13, 2015)

"Kids are kids" doesn't work in college/university. At least, that shouldn't be the excuse. Assignments aren't exciting enough? Make it exciting. Essay requirement is too long - do more detailed research (and that will make it "exciting").

My mother always used to say a kid with a brain shouldn't be bored. Never found reason to dispute that.


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## Sam (Mar 13, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> "Kids are kids" doesn't work in college/university. At least, that shouldn't be the excuse. Assignments aren't exciting enough? Make it exciting. Essay requirement is too long - do more detailed research (and that will make it "exciting").
> 
> My mother always used to say a kid with a brain shouldn't be bored. Never found reason to dispute that.



^This. 

I cannot recall the amount of people I've heard say "I'm so bored". 

I have never been bored a day in my life.


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## LeeC (Mar 13, 2015)

Sam said:


> I have never been bored a day in my life.


Ummm … are you married Sam? I get really bored sometimes having to politely listen to in-laws. It's enough that the wife already knows everything 

But I agree in this context.

Trouble is I was a dumb kid, that wanted to be off somewhere else than the classroom. Makes life harder later on.


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## T.S.Bowman (Mar 13, 2015)

Sam said:


> Word counts are designed to separate the *weed* from the chaff.



That would be _wheat_, Sam.


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## Phil Istine (Mar 13, 2015)

Although I am 57, it's only quite recently that I completed my English GCSE as a mature student.  For the benefit of non UK people, GCSE is a course and exam aimed at 16 year olds. I was pulled from school at 15 a very long time ago by people who had no respect for academia.  It seemed sensible to aim fairly low while I was getting back into the habit of learning.  Anyway, I got the top mark available and was quietly told that if it were permitted, I would have got a far higher one.  I knew my writing was reasonable but just assumed that most people could write like that.  Although pitched at 16 year olds, I was also told that of the adult students, only around 4% attained that mark.
The exam essays at that level were not based on word count; it was pure timing - and there seemed to be an emphasis on quality rather than quantity.
I found it a peculiar experience to read that certificate with forty years of hurt washing down my face.
I'm not particularly concerned with word counts.  For me the important thing is that I've started to believe a little in myself.  All I needed was a gentle nudge.  If I were to write my autobiography in full, a casual reader would just place it on the fiction shelf.
Although not relevant to this forum, I walked the maths too.
I thank the education system for giving me the impetus to take a fresh look.


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## Sam (Mar 13, 2015)

T.S.Bowman said:


> That would be _wheat_, Sam.



Well, look at that. Colour me embarrassed. 

Lee: It wouldn't bore me, because they would think I was listening, when in reality I would have tuned them out about twenty seconds into the conversation.


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## Phil Istine (Mar 13, 2015)

Sam said:


> Well, look at that. Colour me embarrassed.
> 
> Lee: It wouldn't bore me, because they would think I was listening, when in reality I would have tuned them out about twenty seconds into the conversation.



At least you spell "colour" correctly :smile2:


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## Jeko (Mar 13, 2015)

> Blaming the content, or the manner in which it's delivered, is the typical cop-out of students who think that learning should be 'fun'. Learning is hard work.



I only partly agree; yes, students often work less because they view that work as boring, but there's more than one antidote to that. As well as just getting on with what gets you down, especially for something like Eng Lit, it's the student's job - as Shadowwalker pointed out - to make it more engaging. It's hard to effectively criticise something unless you enjoy or are interested in criticising it; that doesn't mean you have to enjoy or be interested in it, but the process of forming, supporting and demonstrating an argument should be something you like to do. Otherwise, you shouldn't be doing a subject that requires it at college or university, or you need to change your outlook or approach to find a way of liking the process of essay writing.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Mar 13, 2015)

Phil Istine said:


> At least you spell "colour" correctly :smile2:




Well it depends on the country,doesn't it? :lol:


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## Riis Marshall (Mar 13, 2015)

Hello Folks

Interesting thread - it looks like we'll keep it going for a while (or, as someone in another recent post remarked 'we'll keep it going awhile.').

I'm reminded of a poster I saw not too long ago: 'Attention teenagers! Tired being hassled by your stupid parents? Move out, get a job, pay your own bills!'

If somebody were to pay me to go to school: clock in five days a week, spend eight hours then clock off, sitting in lectures, taking notes, working in small groups, doing research, writing papers, taking exams, I would sign up immediately. It beats the s*** out of being a grown-up, working at a job you hate anywhere from 40 to 80 hours a week just to pay the bills then going home to cut the grass, change out the muffler on your car, re-shingle the roof and worry if your teen aged kid is going to mess up her head with angel dust or whatever.

Or, as we used to say when I was sailing around the Atlantic Ocean on a US Navy destroyer, often throwing up over the side: 'Wow! I wish I had all these problems when I was seventeen and knew everything.'

Going to school, like almost anything else you do in life is what you make it (sorry for the cliché but here I think it's appropriate).

You wouldn't sit four five-year-old kids around a table, hand them each a violin and tell them: 'Okay I'm going to go away for an hour so. While I'm gone see if you can figure out how these work and, oh yeah, by the way, have some fun while you'r doing it.'

Anything in this life that's worth much takes some work - maybe a lot of work.

All the best with your writing.

Warmest regards
Riis


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## Riis Marshall (Mar 13, 2015)

@Sam

You spell 'colour' just fine.

Riis


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## Sam (Mar 13, 2015)

BeastlyBeast said:


> My only problem with this is, kids are kids. They're not adults. They're not meant to handle the same things. Frankly, if I had a choice between going to school for the rest of my life and getting a job for the rest of my life, I'd choose a job, for the exact reasons you stated. Teenagers are claimed to need more sleep than babies and they live relatively 'stress-free' lives, yet they're the most stressed people in the world today and I'm willing to bet the majority live on 6 hours of sleep or less. Staying up till midnight studying, waking up at 530 to leave for school at 630, going to 5+ different classes every day. I'll tell you a story, here. A year ago, I tried to do Chemistry Honors work. Keep in mind, this is not collegiate level work, not even close. However, with the level of work they were asking for, coupled with how hard I already found the _standard_ assignments to be, I knew in the back of my mind I wasn't going to do it. Yet, I was told to power through it. It was day after day of slugging through, hating it. Eventually, even while trying to keep up with it I fell behind in the Honors work and by the last day of school I had a s***load left to do. I tried to do it all in one day - still failed, even with my mother helping me. It didn't help that I knew people were disappointed. By the end of the day, when it was all over and I had failed Chemistry Honors, my mother told me that it wasn't that big of a deal and she saw how stressed I was over it. I don't think I'll forget the words she said anytime soon - _"That's the kind of stress you should feel when someone you love dies."_ I don't think adults in the real world feel this kind of stress on a daily basis over their work - if they do, they do damn-near perfect jobs at hiding it. Long hours, low sleep, high stress. Only on the worst of days do I see adults experiencing these things, yet I see high-school kids go through this every day.
> 
> I'm not going to tell you that adolescents have it harder than adults. They most certainly do not and, frankly, I think with homeschool opportunities and teachers that can't do or say anything negative to their students without leagal threats, today's schooling is probably easier than ever. But, to expect kids in their youth to go through stuff most adults don't even seem to - and on a daily basis - in preparation for the "real world"...



I did a part-time BA honours degree when I was still working, but also getting up every morning at six a.m. to drive cows to the milker, as well as taking care of farming duties when I got home from work. I know what it's like to have so much to do your head spins. It's not easy. No one is saying it is. 

But life isn't easy. The world doesn't care that you have problems and troubles and doubts. Everyone has them. Your boss doesn't care that you didn't get to sleep last night because you were studying. If school is fun and stress-free, how are the students supposed to cope with a job? 

If the school doesn't prepare those kids in the best possible way they can, in order to ensure maximum potential for acquiring a job, they're doing them a disservice. I wish teachers had been harder on me when I went to school. Maybe then I wouldn't have needed to go back to college as a mature student. Because if you go easy on people, they're inclined to not push themselves. 

Why would anyone voluntarily do something hard if they can do something fun instead?


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## JamesR (Mar 13, 2015)

Well the problem is that most students would just use that as an excuse to half-butt a single page essay and pass that off as a complete assignment. And while I'm sure some extraordinarily gifted student could actually create a masterpiece essay in only one page, the vast majority probably can't. The mandatory length is to ensure that people actually work at it since you can only BS for so long. During high school when I did Independent Study--which, despite the bad reputation it gets as "homeschooling," I actually found more similar to college--my instructor was much more flexible and involved than the typical teacher in the public system. And college, at least as far as my experience has been so far, is a lot more flexible and desirable. I can't wait until I knock out all these irrelevant prerequisites and can focus solely on English.


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## JamesR (Mar 13, 2015)

BeastlyBeast said:


> Teenagers are claimed to need more sleep than babies...Staying up till midnight studying, waking up at 530 to leave for school at 630



I would blame this primarily on the sports culture. Practically speaking, there is no reason why school can't start at 11, 10, 9, or even 8:30 opposed to the 7:30AM ultra early hours that are widespread today. And I would think that most students would rather get out an hour or two later at say 4 or 5 if it meant starting later and not having to wake up as early. But given that sports teams need their time to practice after school, be exempt from class, and occasionally have after-school games, everybody else has to suffer for them when the school decides how to manage its time.

I would more or less agree that high school students have more stress on them than even adults do, and I say that now as a young adult starting life. I would rather go to work everyday for 8-10 hours at the lousiest job imaginable and at least be able to come home with no further obligations to my job until the next day, whereas high school students have to not only do that with school, but then have the added stress of homework and studying once they get home. I have heard many claim that college is more stressful than high school, but I've actually found college to be much easier and stress-free than high school was. That's not to say that the academic is easier, but the method of learning as well as the wiggle-room for personal creativity opposed to the mere legalistic "must-answer-question-correctly" format of high school learning is much more fun IMHO.


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## shadowwalker (Mar 13, 2015)

Around here, students think nothing of being at hockey practice at 5:30 *AM* on school days - and their parents make damn sure they get up for it. Then they turn around and complain about the amount of homework the kids have - gasp! They might even have to bring books home!

Now _that's_ screwed up.


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## ppsage (Mar 13, 2015)

The educational product is what it is. Could be better. Could fit the potential clientele more fully maybe, but what there is is what there is. It's a big investment, to build an educational system and slow to change and difficult to predict. What you see is pretty much what you got to choose from now when you need it. Lots of us end up still havin' to auto-didact a bunch. We'll tell you about it. Ends up it's just another consumer thing. Choose carefully and try to get the most out of the products you invest in. At least it's not totally life and death, most of us get to make more than one shopping trip if we want to.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 13, 2015)

Sam said:


> First: paragraphs. Learn how to use them. When you pay attention to structure, it lends your argument so much more clarity and credence.
> 
> Second: you sound like you're still in high school. If indeed you are, that makes you qualified to the sum of precisely zero to speak about college and/or university. If I've misjudged you, I apologise, but this reads like the rant of a high-schooler.
> 
> ...



     I do use paragraphs. And I've got a college degree. I graduated from a very tough private high school that preps students for college and from there I went on to get my B.A. 
     Any Joe Soap can write 3,500 words of garbage. As a reader and as a writer, I find content and quality much more important than the number of words. What I consider a good essay is an essay where the writer makes a point and says everything they've got to say, if it takes them 3,500 words to do so, so be it, but if they can say just as much and say it just as well in just 500 words, that's a real challenge. I don't hold anything against writers who write many words or pages to say what they've got to say but if you ask me, saying what you've got to say is much more important than how many words you do it in. If you can say it all in just 500 words, what's the point of writing 3500 words? Teachers should be much more concerned with the students answering the essay questions and making the points they're trying to make rather than how many words they're doing it in, although I would give more credit to a student who says just as much but in less words.
     As you said so yourself, you've sometimes had to cut words on your essays because you go over the limit. That's where the challenge lies. You already have a great deal to say, now try saying it all in less words. That's how you be efficient and use words to their greatest effect. If you can use words to great effect, you don't need as many of them.


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## cinderblock (Mar 14, 2015)

I went to college, and if I could do it all over again, I wish I had saved my money. The highest paying job I ever held, did not require a college degree. I don't know what I went to college for, other than having incompetent TAs grade my exams.


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## InnerFlame00 (Mar 14, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> I do use paragraphs. And I've got a college degree. I graduated from a very tough private high school that preps students for college and from there I went on to get my B.A.
> 
> Any Joe Soap can write 3,500 words of garbage. As a reader and as a writer, I find content and quality much more important than the number of words. What I consider a good essay is an essay where the writer makes a point and says everything they've got to say, if it takes them 3,500 words to do so, so be it, but if they can say just as much and say it just as well in just 500 words, that's a real challenge. I don't hold anything against writers who write many words or pages to say what they've got to say but if you ask me, saying what you've got to say is much more important than how many words you do it in. If you can say it all in just 500 words, what's the point of writing 3500 words? Teachers should be much more concerned with the students answering the essay questions and making the points they're trying to make rather than how many words they're doing it in, although I would give more credit to a student who says just as much but in less words.
> 
> As you said so yourself, you've sometimes had to cut words on your essays because you go over the limit. That's where the challenge lies. You already have a great deal to say, now try saying it all in less words. That's how you be efficient and use words to their greatest effect. If you can use words to great effect, you don't need as many of them.



There ya go. Now we have some proper paragraphs in that wall of text.  

You make some good points, but without the spaces it's more difficult to read and tempting to skip over all together.


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## Boofy (Mar 14, 2015)

> _What I consider a good essay is an essay where the writer makes a point and says everything* they've got to say*, if it takes them 3,500 words to do so, so be it, but if they can say just as much and say it just as well in just 500 words, that's a real challenge. _


I think this is the problem, heh. Word counts are there to push you to write what the _teacher_ wants you to say. It isn't really about what you want to say. Word count is an excellent guideline and, for me, makes the process of writing an essay considerably easier. You know you haven't said enough if you haven't reached that word count. The ability to condense information isn't what is being asked of you. If it was, you could write a series of bullet points and submit that for a passing grade. ^^;


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## TDKoon (Mar 14, 2015)

BeastlyBeast said:


> Teenagers are claimed to need more sleep than babies and they live relatively 'stress-free' lives, yet they're the most stressed people in the world today and I'm willing to bet the majority live on 6 hours of sleep or less. Staying up till midnight studying, waking up at 530 to leave for school at 630, going to 5+ different classes every day.



Teenagers, at least in America, are getting an average of 7.4 hours of sleep while the recommended amount is 8-10 compared to a young adult that averages 6.8 on a recommended amount of 7-9. This means that while the young adults do on average sleep closer to their recommended amounts both groups are sleeping fewer hours than they should and should be similarly impacted minimizing or negating this as a comparison tool.

As far as the students staying up until midnight studying, the average American (sorry I'm American so the majority of the studies I've consumed relate to America) teenager consumes 7.5 hours of various media per day. If even half of that time were spent on studying then the average student likely would have nothing to worry about relating to their grades.

What a student is stressed about in school is the potential of failing a class or needing to repeat a grade in high school or being dropped out of college if they are pursuing a higher education. The young adult is worried about losing their transportation or house and the risk of becoming unemployed or even homeless. Its my personal belief that it's not really the amount of stress being placed on students that results in the extremely high stress levels but rather the capability of the student to wade through that stress. A certain amount of stress and expectation in the school system, while it may be difficult to deal with at the time, is essential in teaching the children the tools that they need to cope with the stresses that they will encounter later in life. That being said, I do believe that stress management and time management are tools that should be taught in school that, as far as American schools go, are not taught at all.

While this maybe be viewed as cynical or cruel, I also think a stress overload in college is an important factor in weeding out those that can handle the workload from those that aren't able to keep up. It isn't which degree you are earning at this point but the level of the degree that you're earning. Contrary to what many people believe, in my experience in the corporate world, the higher up the ladder you climb the larger your workload is, the larger your decision impacts are on the company and the higher the stress your decisions place on you. This means that people that are placed in this positions need to be able to handle intense workloads and high stress situations with minimal impact on themselves in order to make accurate decisions that are healthy for the employing company.


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## Jeko (Mar 14, 2015)

> What I consider a good essay is an essay where the writer makes a point and says everything they've got to say, if it takes them 3,500 words to do so, so be it, but if they can say just as much and say it just as well in just 500 words, that's a real challenge.



No, it's a real shame that they didn't grasp the nature of the essay. A 2000 word essay means you need to have 2000 words of stuff to say. If you can say everything you need to in a quarter of that, then you only have a quarter of what you need to say, and you're only being a quarter if the student you need to be.

Quality is as much about sustaining performance as it is about demonstrating it.


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## LeeC (Mar 14, 2015)

As in the differences of opinion in this thread, different people adapt to/are more comfortable in different situations in life. Education can't be tailored to every individuals disposition, and thus is a wider brush stroke, if anything leaning towards the aptitudes of those that remain in the education system. In any case it's simply an attempt to give one a broader foundation than might be attained in individual nurturing situations. Real learning and character develop afterwards as we course our ways through the twists and turns of life. How each of us apply life's lessons, part of which is the educational system, is the basis, though not necessarily the determinant, of how well we achieve what is individually desired (which also changes through life).

In other words the education system may be a real asset to some, if they use it as a starting point and not an end game, and at the same time an irritating experience to others that don't fit in the peg holes provided. The education system is, like all of humankind's great institutions, simply and accumulation of prevailing dogma, not necessarily right nor wrong. 

So if the education system ruins a writer, then the person needed a different approach if they'd have been much of a writer in the first place, and if the education system makes another an accomplished writer, then maybe too much credit is being given the system ;-)

So ends today's sermon


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 14, 2015)

InnerFlame00 said:


> There ya go. Now we have some proper paragraphs in that wall of text.
> 
> You make some good points, but without the spaces it's more difficult to read and tempting to skip over all together.



Alright, so I should make spaces in between my paragraphs. I tried to indent as you're supposed to do when you start a new paragraph but the forum won't let me do that. So I will make spaces, although with some college essays they don't want you doing that.



Cadence said:


> No, it's a real shame that they didn't grasp the nature of the essay. A 2000 word essay means you need to have 2000 words of stuff to say. If you can say everything you need to in a quarter of that, then you only have a quarter of what you need to say, and you're only being a quarter if the student you need to be.
> 
> Quality is as much about sustaining performance as it is about demonstrating it.



How about if I can say the whole thing in just a quarter of the space? Lets say there's two students, student A and student B. Now lets say student A says a bunch of stuff in 2000 words. Student B says everything student A says in just 500 words, which student is the better writer?



TDKoon said:


> Teenagers, at least in America, are getting an average of 7.4 hours of sleep while the recommended amount is 8-10 compared to a young adult that averages 6.8 on a recommended amount of 7-9. This means that while the young adults do on average sleep closer to their recommended amounts both groups are sleeping fewer hours than they should and should be similarly impacted minimizing or negating this as a comparison tool.


What do you mean by young adult? Most of the time young adult means teenager yet you put them in different categories. 10 hours is too much sleep for anybody, even 9 hours a night can cause heart problems in the long run. And its babies that need the most sleep because they're growing so much.


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## Jeko (Mar 14, 2015)

> How about if I can say the whole thing in just a quarter of the space? Lets say there's two students, student A and student B. Now lets say student A says a bunch of stuff in 2000 words. Student B says everything student A says in just 500 words, which student is the better writer?



Student A.

But Student C can say four times everything Student A said, filling the word count while retaining quality. 

If you can go through what you want to say in a quarter of the space required, great. But essays are not about 'saying' something - they're about _arguing_. So why, for instance, would you not use the rest of the space to disprove contradictory arguments, thus increasing the standing of yours? 

What if someone were to come along with an essay that argues the opposite of what you do, but their's is actually a 50,000 word thesis which they've spent years researching and every paragraph of it is as strong and finite as it can be? How's your 500 word I'm-too-lazy-to-expand-my-thinking paragraph-of-an-essay going to look then?

You can _always _make your argument stronger by doing more research and writing more to support it, and nothing is ever absolutely proven in any number of words. Why would you be responding to our posts if you didn't think that each response would help better support your argument?


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## aj47 (Mar 14, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> How about if I can say the whole thing in just a quarter of the space? Lets say there's two students, student A and student B. Now lets say student A says a bunch of stuff in 2000 words. Student B says everything student A says in just 500 words, which student is the better writer?


if you are smart enough to say whatever in one quarter of the word count,  you _should_ be smart enough to come up with four times as much to say about it.


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## TKent (Mar 14, 2015)

I will say, from a mother's point of view:

My daughter graduated from high school with a 3.9 out of 4.0 GPA, yet wrote at the level of a 5th grader. I literally had to write her college essays. She went to a public school but was in the International Baccalaureate program but probably the average amount of writing required.

She went to Georgia Tech (on the strength of her grades and me re-writing her entrance essay) and came out an accomplished writer. The first time I realized that she had actually learned to write well while at Tech, I asked her how it happened and she said, "We wrote constantly. I either learned to write or failed."  


And specifying a number of words is pretty typical of the real world. Whether you are a journalist, or trying to hit the mark that an agent or publisher specified, there are generally constraints on pretty much everything of some sort or another.

So I am firmly in the camp of believing it is critical.


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## Plasticweld (Mar 14, 2015)

I am the only one in my household or extended family without a degree. I think the point of your question has more to do with the ability of Critical Thinking than it does about the skill of writing. While it is important to be able to have the technical skills to be able to convey your thoughts in the written word, without the ability to form an opinion and articulate your thoughts the words you write down will be  no more than mush.  I word count means nothing if you took you 1200 words to say nothing that mattered. 

I posted this in the NF section awhile ago about the lack of college graduates with Critical Thinking skills and how it was the one of main complains of employers when looking at new hires  *Here*  It goes into detail about the skills of a writer and  how it may better prepare you for being hired because of the need skills to be successful.  Proving your point that if this is true what you claim would make perfect sense...Bob


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## shadowwalker (Mar 14, 2015)

As to word count, I could probably re-tell "War and Peace" in a couple pages. I don't think it would be as good as the original, though...


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## Plasticweld (Mar 14, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> As to word count, I could probably re-tell "War and Peace" in a couple pages. I don't think it would be as good as the original, though...




I would spend .99 cents on Amazon to read that story!


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## Carousel (Mar 14, 2015)

The ability to write when confined to a set number of words would be a useful skill if the student is intent in pursuing a career in journalism, that apart its difficult to see where restricted wording out weighs the quality of the prose.

The teaching profession is no different from other professions; it has the good the mediocre and the poor. The good will inspire the students to work, while the poor lack the capacity to inspire them to take the dog for a walk.

I find it amusing to read the almost Victorian expressions of the work ethic here. 
_Blaming the content, or the manner in which it's delivered, is the typical cop-out of students who think that learning should be 'fun'. Learning is hard work. Long hours, low sleep, high stress, and there's a reason for that. _
Really? Why shouldn’t learning be fun or at least be because the student is inspired by the teacher to put the time in to learn.

_I went to college, and if I could do it all over again, I wish I had saved my money. The highest paying job I ever held, did not require a college degree. I don't know what I went to college for, other than having incompetent TAs grade my exams._
Yes and sadly true for many who spent wasted years in obtaining degrees that had no future bearing on their lives. 

As for universities, Hugh Laurie spent most of his time at Cambridge rowing a boat and his friend Stephen Fry engaged his time there in acting and writing scripts for the Footlights.
 I once had a summer affair with a girl student from Somerville College in Oxford. You couldn’t move in the pubs and the tea shops for students at anytime of the day. How they devoted their time to the _hard work_ of learning is anyone’s guess.


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## shadowwalker (Mar 14, 2015)

I would say that learning should be fun in the same way that writing should be fun. It can be - but it also involves hard work, sleepless nights, anxiety and stress. And it's not up to anyone else to make it fun for you (at least, not once you're past childhood).


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## InstituteMan (Mar 14, 2015)

While I generally agree that learning involves work, I also generally agree that it ought not be needless drudgery. Especially once you reach college, if you hate the classes you are taking for your course of study, that's probably a sign that you need to find a new course of study. Sure, any course of study, just like any career, will involve doing things you find unpleasant, but if the unpleasant predominates a change is in order.

I realize most people in this world go to jobs they don't much enjoy, and they do so because they need money to pay bills. I get that. What I don't get is paying for an education you just endure to work a job you're going to hate. You can skip the intermediate education step, save your money and time, and go straight to a job you hate. Sure, there's a salary premium if you have a college degree, but based upon my unscientific observations in life (and raising two kids to the point where they are in college now, and from observing my kids' friends) it still isn't a good idea to study something you hate. Those who try to grit out a degree for the money at the end often fail to get the degree at all, but they still have plenty of student debt. Plus, even if they get the degree, it's usually with less than stellar grades (which pushes them into the lower paying positions in the profession), and they typically don't last long in their career (but, again, they still have all the school loans).

So, yes, work hard at your studies, but when you find something you enjoy doing enough that it doesn't feel like work, consider that as a career option if you have the opportunity. I realize that when you are coming from impoverished circumstances (as I did as a kid) you may not be able to take the most direct route to doing what you enjoy for a living. If what you want to do for a living is watching re-runs on television, then you're pretty much doomed. If there's something productive that you enjoy, though, you'll do far better financially over your lifetime than by figuring out a way to do that with enthusiasm than by doing whatever it is someone pushes you into enduring for the supposed better money.

That's just my two cents. I'm putting my money where my mouth is for it with my kids and their education.


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## Jeko (Mar 14, 2015)

> The ability to write when confined to a set number of words would be a useful skill if the student is intent in pursuing a career in journalism



The ability to communicate in a confined limit is valuable in every profession: no-one wants a 5-hour speech during a 1-hour meeting, but likewise, no-one wants that speech to only last thirty seconds. Your discoveries on the nature of the universe won't see print if they only occupy a paragraph, nor if they'd require an entire library for storage. 

Extremes, I know, but you get what I mean. Being given a time frame and filling it to the brim with quality is what the essay-based side of the education system trains people for, as it's one of the most important transferable skills.


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## Carousel (Mar 14, 2015)

Some I’ve been forced to listen to would have been beneficial to everyone if they had been limited to 30 seconds.


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## Jeko (Mar 14, 2015)

> Some I’ve been forced to listen to would have been beneficial to everyone if they had been limited to 30 seconds.



I think in those situations the person shouldn't be speaking at all. 

Likewise for a student studying an essay-based subject who doesn't know what writing an essay is asking of them. Those who do tend to rarely complain about the oppression of word counts and the temptation to BS and the like.


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## JustRob (Mar 16, 2015)

mrmustard615 said:


> Originally Posted by *Phil Istine*
> 
> At least you spell "colour" correctly :smile2:
> 
> Well it depends on the country,doesn't it? :lol:



Does it? I thought that it had something to do with the way that one pronounces words. I was very reticent about writing about my labour _d'amour_ for a challenge entitled "labors of love". The title itself seemed too unlovely and the real challenge to overcome. I heard in the news recently about suggestions that spelling of the English language should be "rationalised" in Britain with, for example, "unnecessary" double consonants eliminated. Personally I feel that people should be encouraged to pronounce words correctly and understand the rules of pronunciation. Some countries endeavour to protect their languages from foreign influences but we English have always had a reputation for being tolerant in many ways. That doesn't mean that we take kindly to aberrations even if we try to present that impression. However, in the interests of tolerance in these forums (or even fora) we accept that a person's "colour" is irrelevant.

Regarding the discussion on word counts, I can't get worked up about it at all. Humans are capable of extracting the information contained in text at an incredible speed, maybe far faster than they themselves realise, and perhaps Caxton and Gutenberg had to be concerned about word counts but I see them having little relevance in our modern technological world. I recollect hearing stories about computer programmers who were assessed and maybe even paid on the number of lines of programme code that they produced instead of on what those programmes achieved, which to someone like myself who wrote extremely concise code seemed illogical. I was once given a programme written by someone else, which wouldn't fit in our computer's memory, to fix and rewrote it to occupy one third of the space. To avoid any embarrassment elsewhere I then added more features to increase its size to fit the computer's memory. I'm not convinced that that is necessary to avoid the embarrassment of others when one discovers that one has fulfilled the objectives of a school project in a fraction of the allotted space though. What ultimately matters is the information conveyed, not the number or spelling of the words used to achieve that.

In due deference to Olly's past advice I should point out that anything written here is merely the opinion of the author, whose authority is continually in doubt, even by himself.


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## Carousel (Mar 16, 2015)

Agreed, quality over quantity every time, but why remind us that this is only your opinion, isn’t a discussion an exchange of opinions?


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 16, 2015)

Cadence said:


> Student A.
> 
> But Student C can say four times everything Student A said, filling the word count while retaining quality.
> 
> ...


You also have to keep in mind the reader or readers. And this isn't necessarily with schoolwork but with any time you're writing an argument that you want other people to read including message forums such as this one. A reader might not want to read tons words. I've had that problem myself where I've written long posts on message boards and people don't read them because they're too long. When you write an argument, you have to write something that other people will want to read, otherwise its pointless as nobody will read what you write.


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## JustRob (Mar 16, 2015)

Carousel said:


> Agreed, quality over quantity every time, but why remind us that this is only your opinion, isn’t a discussion an exchange of opinions?



I think so, but that remark was aimed at Olly. Private joke.


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## InnerFlame00 (Mar 16, 2015)

Also, lets consider the subjects of some of these essays. I mean, really people. You have to admit that at least a few of the essays you were forced to write were on subjects that made you wonder if the teacher had lost their marbles.

I think word count is a (imperfect, but suitable) crutch the teacher gives to students who don't know how to write a well balanced essay. The students who get frustrated with word count are either lazy, or they already know how to write a balanced essay and it happens to fall 200 words short so they're forced to write in 200 words of fluff. It is what it is. I don't think it ruins writers, but it may scare them off from a job in journalism .


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## Sam (Mar 16, 2015)

Carousel said:


> Really? Why shouldn’t learning be fun or at least be because the student is inspired by the teacher to put the time in to learn.



If a student needs to be inspired by a teacher to put in time to learn, they shouldn't be in college/university. 

If they were paying out of their own pocket, which some but not all of them do, they would be extra willing to put in time to learn. It wouldn't matter how good or bad their teacher was. But the problem with college and university, at least in the UK, is that too many dossers go there to drink and party for four years because they're too lazy to get a job. If they were mature students paying through the nose, and getting second-rate lecturers and teachers, they'd find a way to make the experience fun. They'd also learn, because wasting thousands of pounds to flunk a degree is not terribly enticing.


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## Blade (Mar 16, 2015)

Just Rob said:
			
		

> Does it? I thought that it had something to do with the way that one pronounces words.



Actually it does go by country. If you are educated in a jurisdiction of British origin 'colour' will be the correct spelling whereas in American English 'color' is appropriate. In some cases spelling can be reduced in letters and become more phonetic (i.e. through --> thru).

There was a movement in the US at one time to rationalize spelling and thus make the language more accessible to both children and foreign speakers :encouragement: but for some reason it fizzled out.:blue: It was a good idea IMHO.


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## Carousel (Mar 16, 2015)

Rather jaundiced views of today’s youth, but then sweeping statements are usually made with such conviction



Sam said:


> If a student needs to be inspired by a teacher to put in time to learn, they shouldn't be in college/university.
> If they were paying out of their own pocket, which some but not all of them do, they would be extra willing to put in time to learn. It wouldn't matter how good or bad their teacher was.



If you are you saying that the actual quality of teaching has no influence or value in the work that a student is prepared to devote to a subject, then I don't think that many will agree with you.


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## Jeko (Mar 16, 2015)

> with any time you're writing an argument that you want other people to read including message forums such as this one. A reader might not want to read tons words. I've had that problem myself where I've written long posts on message boards and people don't read them because they're too long. When you write an argument, you have to write something that other people will want to read, otherwise its pointless as nobody will read what you write.



I'll remember that while I write my master's thesis - shorten it to 500 words or less, otherwise the university will give me a tl;dr.

Quantity is proportional to requirement, which varies depending on situation. So if you're asked for 2,000 words from a reader who wants 2,000 words, you give that reader about 2,000 words and try to pack as much into those 2,000 words as you can. It's as simple as that.


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## Sam (Mar 16, 2015)

Carousel said:


> Rather jaundiced views of today’s youth, but then sweeping statements are usually made with such conviction
> 
> 
> 
> If you are you saying that the actual quality of teaching has no influence or value in the work that a student is prepared to devote to a subject, then I don't think that many will agree with you.



I don't really care who agrees with me. 

You can dress it any way you want, but if you're in college/university, the time for hand-holding is long since past. You get a boring teacher? Deal with it. Life isn't going to stop and throw you rainbows and fairies every time someone s***s on your parade. 

You're in college/university because you want to learn. Teachers are responsible for giving you enough information to pass their class; nowhere is it written that they have to be riveting in doing so. If you want first-class honours, you have to go beyond what they've taught you. Any moron can rehash what a teacher says in a classroom, but the difference between a pass and a 1:1 is how much work and study that person dedicates to each assignment. 

I've had several boring teachers. Some made me want to fall asleep. But it didn't matter, because I went away and did my own research and study. That's what being an undergraduate is all about.


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## InnerFlame00 (Mar 16, 2015)

Someone needs to throw this thread in the furnace and let it burn. I don't think it's going anywhere at this point except people restating their opinions :\.


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## Terry D (Mar 16, 2015)

Yes! Of course learning is easier and generally more effective when teachers are engaged and engaging. The same can be said of the students. If they would stay off their cell phones and laptops and actually participate in the class the teacher might be more engaged also. But the truth is, neither situation is ever going to happen 100% of the time. In the captive audience situation of high school I feel the burden falls predominantly with the teacher (at least in the early years: Bueller? Bueller?). In university it rests solely with the student. You are choosing to accept what is offered, no one is forcing you to be there. Later in life you will find that most employers don't worry about making your job interesting, if you find one that does, relish it--but don't expect it.


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## ppsage (Mar 16, 2015)

> But the problem with college and university, at least in the UK, is that too many dossers go there to drink and party for four years because they're too lazy to get a job.


I don't care about the lazy part or the job part very much; to me these guys are also skipping the entertainment.


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## Carousel (Mar 16, 2015)

Sam said:


> I don't really care who agrees with me.



Oh I see, Well as your opinion is the only one that matters to you then there's no point in continuing the discussion.


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## bazz cargo (Mar 16, 2015)

For my sins, my 2c.

The education sausage machine is there to provide a set of qualifications, to reach your goal you play the game, sometimes if you are smart you can even game the system.

This has absolutely nothing to do with being a writer, that is each individuals addiction.

Qualifications and some experience will open doors for you, after that you will need to be able to produce or they will be revolving doors.

Good luck.
BC


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## shadowwalker (Mar 17, 2015)

Carousel said:


> Oh I see, Well as your opinion is the only one that matters to you then there's no point in continuing the discussion.



Well, I happen to agree with the opinion. Once you decide to go to college, the onus is on you to make it work. The professors are not baby-sitters, trying to keep your interest. Their job is to teach - the student is expected to work that teaching into something useful to that student. Just as when you decide to take a job - the employer really doesn't give a rat's behind whether you find the job interesting or challenging or entertaining. They want X amount of productivity out of you, and if they don't get it, there are plenty of other folks they can hire in your place. That's real life for you. :sorrow:


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## Carousel (Mar 17, 2015)

Except for one tiny flaw; in universities the students pay the teaching staff, in the world of work it’s the other way round.


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## Sam (Mar 17, 2015)

So what? 

I pay to go to the cinema and watch a movie. That doesn't mean I'm entitled or owed a riveting one.


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## Terry D (Mar 17, 2015)

Carousel said:


> Except for one tiny flaw; in universities the students pay the teaching staff, in the world of work it’s the other way round.



No flaw. The student is free to choose which institution he or she wishes to pay, aren't they? If you don't like a product, or service, change providers. There's no mandate for instructors to be entertaining, only to provide an education.


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## shadowwalker (Mar 17, 2015)

Carousel said:


> Except for one tiny flaw; in universities the students pay the teaching staff, in the world of work it’s the other way round.



The issue is not who's paying who - the issue is choice. The student chooses where to go to school, what classes to take, how much work to put into them. Seems to me, if you're paying to learn, it behooves you to do as much as possible yourself to make the learning meaningful. That is, of course, based on the premise that you are actually paying for it, not the government or Mommy and Daddy.


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## EricStevenJ. (Mar 17, 2015)

astroannie said:


> if you are smart enough to say whatever in one quarter of the word count, you _should_ be smart enough to come up with four times as much to say about it.



Couldn't agree with this more. Without limitations, a work of art would never be truly complete. Restrictions have a way of spurring creativity, however frustrating they may seem. Rather than fighting guidelines, embrace them--you might be pleasantly surprised with the result.



Sam said:


> So what?
> 
> I pay to go to the cinema and watch a movie. That doesn't mean I'm entitled or owed a riveting one.



No, it doesn't. Entitlement is certainly a man-made concept to provide people with the illusion that they are owed something just for existing.

Conversely, if you pay to go to the cinema, and the film you watch isn't entertaining to you (in other words, isn't worth your time), does that not decrease the odds you'll return to watch the same actor(s)/director?


I spent too many years in college, at too many different colleges... changed my major too many times. I was, what you might call, a "super-senior".

College is possibly one of the greatest shams of the 21st century. In no other realm of life are people encouraged to waste so many years and so much money to find out whether or not they enjoy something. This all, of course, depends on the school a person goes to and why they attend. Furthermore, some people find what they enjoy early in life, and I commend them; I was not one of those people.

The truth about the college experience, which no one told me when I was a kid, is that professors are just people with jobs. Once in a while you'll find one who's especially talented at teaching and inspiring, but, just like any other aspect of life, they're a rare commodity.

Anyone can do a job, just like any student can write a paper. The unfortunate cycle within this framework is the relationship between the two parties. Students enter college with expectations of what the experience might be like, and it only takes one ill-equipped professor to shatter them. Then, the student's work may become substandard, and then their professors begin viewing the students as lazy or entitled. So, the cycle continues.


At the end of the day, everyone could do better at their job. C'est la vie, right?

My personal take on it... if you don't like it, change it.

I wrote papers in college that had page/word requirements. Truth be told, I didn't always follow them. Almost every time, though, I still got an A. My assessment of those experiences is that professors generally want students to provide quality, and the rules they set are intended to assist the creating of it, not hamstring the process itself. The reason is simple... most students, and by most I mean a vast majority, will do the least amount of work possible to get "acceptable" or passing grades, and the rules are usually designed to fulfill that measurement. I had occasion to go above and beyond, so I changed the rules to accommodate the way I wanted to do an assignment. This landed me an after-class conversation with <insert professor> every time. Either they wanted to talk to me about my work, or I wanted to talk to them about it. This built rapport and gave me a chance to let them know that their class mattered to me. At this point, I was no longer just a number on the roster... I was a face, a name... a writing style.

Some of Sam's comments may be rather sharp, tapered even, but I think I understand his position, and the reality of it is just that. You get out of an experience what you put into it. Unfortunately, how much you have to invest for a desirable result isn't always fair--in most cases it isn't. But, finding what to invest in is just as much a part of the learning process. It's all about economics, and the more experience you have, the more often you'll start being able to make wiser investments.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Mar 17, 2015)

Boy, this will teach me to show up to a thread late.  All that's needed to be said has been said, and it's not like some teenager who only posted to say "School sucks! Who's with me?" is going to read it all anyway.  Oh well; you get my take anyway.

It's a simple, consistent fact of life - those who think they know everything are the ones with the most to learn.  I've been hit time and again by that, and I know 99% of high schoolers fall victim to it as well.  "I don't need these rules! I can write a perfectly good paper without them! These are just cramping my creativity!"

But the fact is, we need these restrictions to properly develop as writers.  As others have said, if you can discuss a subject in 500 words, you can discuss it twice as well in 1000 words.  Rules like these teach students to be thorough, and the end result is a student who produces a better quality of work.  Students complain about the rules seeming to be arbitrary and changing every years, but it's simply a shifting focus.  Once you learn a rule, you're allowed to break it.  If you never learn the rule in the first place, you won't have the comprehension to use or not use it.

Is it important to make your point? Absolutely; it's the goal.  But to make your point effectively, you need to be able to convey it well and support it well.  Writing classes teach you to do that.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Mar 17, 2015)

EricStevenJ. said:


> College is possibly one of the greatest shams of the 21st century. In no other realm of life are people encouraged to waste so many years and so much money to find out whether or not they enjoy something.



Is that why we tell people to go to college? To "find out what they like"? If that's why you're going to college, you're already doing it for the wrong reasons.  College is there to enhance your expertise in a field you already enjoy (or at least wish to pursue).

Going to college to find out if you like a career is like buying cars off a lot, one by one, until you get one you're satisfied with.  Sure, you might get an answer, but only after you've wasted a lot of time and money.


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## EricStevenJ. (Mar 17, 2015)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> Is that why we tell people to go to college? To "find out what they like"? If that's why you're going to college, you're already doing it for the wrong reasons.  College is there to enhance your expertise in a field you already enjoy (or at least wish to pursue).
> 
> Going to college to find out if you like a career is like buying cars off a lot, one by one, until you get one you're satisfied with.  Sure, you might get an answer, but only after you've wasted a lot of time and money.



You're exactly right. My comment is based on an assumption, but perhaps I'm wrong in that assumption.

Do most high school graduates already know what they enjoy? If so, then yes... I'm way off base.


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## Sam (Mar 17, 2015)

No, but most mature students, like myself, know what they enjoy, which is why university is not a scam for me.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Mar 17, 2015)

EricStevenJ. said:


> You're exactly right. My comment is based on an assumption, but perhaps I'm wrong in that assumption.
> 
> Do most high school graduates already know what they enjoy? If so, then yes... I'm way off base.



I don't think you're _wrong_; that is, I agree it's rare for students to know what they want to do by the time they enter college.  That said, I believe people feel pressured to go to college because "it's the only way to be successful," so they decide to try it out, since the first year or two are often pretty interchangeable between degrees.  They don't take the time to evaluate the expense and commitment, and they assume it'll just work out.  Often, it doesn't.

Like Sam, I knew what I wanted to do when I graduated high school, so college was absolutely a valuable investment for me.  I recommend it for anyone who wants to enter a field that requires a degree and is sure that's where they want to go with their life.  However, I would never say college is the only way to be successful, or that it's the first thing you have to do upon graduating high school.  If you don't know what you want to do with your adult life, don't kick it off by spending a bunch of money.


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## EricStevenJ. (Mar 17, 2015)

Sam said:


> No, but most mature students, like myself, know what they enjoy, which is why university is not a scam for me.



I must not have been a very mature student then, as were most of my friends I attended college with. I'm not entirely sure what a mature student looks like, actually. I tend to view anybody under the age of 24-25 as relatively immature or inexperienced, but maybe I stand alone in that as well.


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## EricStevenJ. (Mar 17, 2015)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> I don't think you're _wrong_; that is, I agree it's rare for students to know what they want to do by the time they enter college.  That said, I believe people feel pressured to go to college because "it's the only way to be successful," so they decide to try it out, since the first year or two are often pretty interchangeable between degrees.  They don't take the time to evaluate the expense and commitment, and they assume it'll just work out.  Often, it doesn't.
> 
> Like Sam, I knew what I wanted to do when I graduated high school, so college was absolutely a valuable investment for me.  I recommend it for anyone who wants to enter a field that requires a degree and is sure that's where they want to go with their life.  However, I would never say college is the only way to be successful, or that it's the first thing you have to do upon graduating high school.  *If you don't know what you want to do with your adult life, don't kick it off by spending a bunch of money.*



Wise words. Ones I wished I'd heard.

I would place myself in a middle pool, though. I was very confident in what I thought I wanted to do when I entered college, but I found myself easily distracted by interests in other fields. I'm the only one to blame for this, of course, but I knew many other people who found themselves in similar situations of self-discovery. There really is no right or wrong, I guess all you can do is be as informed as possible and make the best decision you can.


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## Carousel (Mar 17, 2015)

Terry D said:


> No flaw. The student is free to choose which institution he or she wishes to pay, aren't they? If you don't like a product, or service, change providers. There's no mandate for instructors to be entertaining, only to provide an education.



Sorry, the flaw remains. You make the difference between the student and an employer when in fact who is the employer and who is the employed is the same; i.e. their both paying for a service; one pays for your labour and one pays for tuition. The simple question as to who pays the Pied Piper. 

 Are you saying that a university will reimburse the fee that the student has paid? Not in the UK methinks. The choice the students have is restricted to their grades; it’s not in anyway a free choice. In fact the choice is mainly for the universities to make by offering the student a place.
I don’t think I mentioned _entertaining, _the word I used was _inspiring. _To dismiss all the qualities of good teaching and replace that by hard work on the part of the student is a totally one sided appraisal and one that is married to the simplistic Victorian belief that hard work is the sole panacea for success.


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## Terry D (Mar 17, 2015)

Carousel said:


> Sorry, the flaw remains. You make the difference between the student and an employer when in fact who is the employer and who is the employed is the same; i.e. their both paying for a service; one pays for your labour and one pays for tuition. The simple question as to who pays the Pied Piper.
> 
> Are you saying that a university will reimburse the fee that the student has paid? Not in the UK methinks. The choice the students have is restricted to their grades; it’s not in anyway a free choice. In fact the choice is mainly for the universities to make by offering the student a place.
> I don’t think I mentioned _entertaining, _the word I used was _inspiring. _To dismiss all the qualities of good teaching and replace that by hard work on the part of the student is a totally one sided appraisal and one that is married to the simplistic Victorian belief that hard work is the sole panacea for success.



The teachers are employed by the university, not the student. When I go into a bookstore shopping for a new novel, the clerk isn't working for me, s/he works for the store owner.

There is no obligation for a teacher to present his material in a way the student finds "inspiring". Is it good when that happens? Sure, but it is not requisite.


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## Carousel (Mar 17, 2015)

Whether the fee is paid to the teachers or the university is irrelevant, it’s just a matter of recycling the fee paid.  The whole point is that the student is paying a sizable sum in exchange for education. Your analogy of an assistant in a bookshop being compared to a university professor is a little strange, but I’ll let that pass.


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## Terry D (Mar 17, 2015)

Carousel said:


> Your analogy of an assistant in a bookshop being compared to a university professor is a little strange, but I’ll let that pass.



I'm so relieved.

But enough is enough.


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## Jeko (Mar 17, 2015)

Why don't the people who want an 'inspiring' education have a go at teaching themselves? 

I'd pay to see that; not for the education, just for the experience of what an 'inspiring' education is in these people's minds, since they seem to know so much about it.


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## InstituteMan (Mar 17, 2015)

As to the point of the thread (how formal education helps/hurts a writer's skills), I tend to think that talent is innate, but it benefits from a certain degree of learning. A better education will enhance natural talent and a poorer education will suppress natural talent. What is "better" or "poorer" will be different for different writers, of course. 

My sense is that life experience and work ethic matter more in the end than education, but I realize that may not be of much comfort to someone who's stuck in the middle of a tough stretch of his/her education.


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## shadowwalker (Mar 18, 2015)

If a college education is the key to success, why are so many college graduates unemployed, under-employed, and/or still living at home? :scratch:


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## Sam (Mar 18, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> If a college education is the key to success, why are so many college graduates unemployed, under-employed, and/or still living at home? :scratch:



Because there is the erroneous belief that going to college and getting a degree will guarantee a job. The reality is that every Tom, Dick, and Harry has one as well and is going for the same job. 

For any chance of getting one foot in the door before them, you need to at least have a master's degree, if not a PhD. 

That is the sad state of the world. In France, you can teach on a degree. No post-grad qualifications are needed. In the UK, you'd have a better chance of winning the lottery than teaching on even a degree and a post-grad teaching qualification. An MA is often essential as well.

It's no longer a matter of getting a degree and securing your dream job. I know people who have degrees and are stacking shelves in supermarkets.


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## Carousel (Mar 18, 2015)

Yes and carrying up to £20,000 of debt round their necks before they even find a job.


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## BeastlyBeast (Mar 18, 2015)

I know it's a bit of a detour from the main topic, but that's why I personally think college is quite worthless. Keep in mind, I'm not talking about trade schools or focused higher education. Going through four years of effectively whatever would naturally follow 12th grade is what I am talking about. It's unfocused, leaves you with, as others have stated, a near worthless degree, and doesn't guarantee you crap. Plus, general education college charges you _a lot_, AND colleges are notorious for making certain classes unnecessarily hard. You might think you have more control over your grade than the system, but you don't. The system could easily drop your A to a C if it likes. All it takes is a couple hard tests you're bound to fail. Trust me, I tried out 2 collegiate level courses early this year, read all the material, filled all the study guides painstakingly, carefully read each question - 60% on EVERY SINGLE TEST I TRIED. Didn't help that it was one-try only - that's another way they like to screw you over; no do overs, because those are for people who wanna have a chance at succeeding. Thank God I never sent in my 'yes I want to take this course, absolutely' slip, otherwise I'd have no hair and I'd be failing two courses! Wouldn't look too good on the transcript... 

If you want to have a little bit more of a guarantee, go to a trade school. Nursing school, Vo-Tech schools, focusing degrees in your desired career, etc. Don't just go for the well-rounded stuff, employers don't give two craps whether you have college smarts - they want job smarts.


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## Kyle R (Mar 18, 2015)

In regards to the original post: word-count restrictions and expectations are part of writing.

In fiction, journalism, screenwriting (et cetera) you will have expectations to meet in terms of how much space your writing occupies. Your novel better be 90,000 words (or whatever the publisher wants it to be). The length of your news article better match your editor's request. Your screenplay better be 120 pages (or pretty darn close to it) and formatted to the industry standard.

If not, kiss your paychecks goodbye.

If you take a job as a writer for a television sitcom, you'll be expected to write to both the in-house formula, and the network's time-constraints. There are no exceptions. This is what the job entails.

Such expectations and restrictions are part of the world of writing. You learn to work with them. To adapt and survive. 

Feeling frustrated about it is a natural response. But what next? The solution is to find a way to occupy the space you've been given (this is true both in writing, and in life in general). 

You could waft around and try to just fill the empty space, or you can try to make something great out of it. The choice is up to you. :encouragement:


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## Jeko (Mar 18, 2015)

> carrying up to £20,000 of debt round their necks before they even find a job.



It doesn't work like debt for UK residents; it functions more as a tax, and it doesn't even exist until you're earning enough money. If you spend your life unemployed, you don't have to pay back a single penny. Once you're earning enough, it's just a cut of your wages, and the whole thing gets written off after a few decades. 

I don't think that money can have any negative effect on a writer's (or any artists') career or ability to produce quality under restrictions, so I don't know why it was brought up. In fact, the more you feel like you're in debt, the more you'll feel like working, so I can only see it as a boon.


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## Carousel (Mar 18, 2015)

Cadence said:


> It doesn't work like debt for UK residents; it functions more as a tax, and it doesn't even exist until you're earning enough money. If you spend your life unemployed, you don't have to pay back a single penny. Once you're earning enough, it's just a cut of your wages, and the whole thing gets written off after a few decades.
> 
> I don't think that money can have any negative effect on a writer's (or any artsits') career or ability to produce quality under restrictions, so I don't know why it was brought up. In fact, the more you feel like you're in debt, the more you'll feel like working, so I can only see it as a boon.




:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Jeko (Mar 18, 2015)

^You're right, I spelled 'artist' wrong. Spelling errors aren't that funny, though.


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## Crowley K. Jarvis (Mar 18, 2015)

I stand with that statement,  that many go to college and waste time because they hardly get a job in that field, and usually end up finding higher paid work elsewhere...

Technical and financial reasons aside, I refuse to go to college of any kind simply because of the other young people. It's hand down a terrible environment in ANY part of the world... >...>

I'll go to a technical college if I must and learn something applicable to the world I'll actually be thrown into.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 18, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> If a college education is the key to success, why are so many college graduates unemployed, under-employed, and/or still living at home? :scratch:



Because college isn't the key to success, although it sure helps.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 18, 2015)

Sam said:


> Because there is the erroneous belief that going to college and getting a degree will guarantee a job. The reality is that every Tom, Dick, and Harry has one as well and is going for the same job.



Only about 7% of the world population has college degrees.



Sam said:


> For any chance of getting one foot in the door before them, you need to at least have a master's degree, if not a PhD.


There are people with masters degrees who are working at the checkout counters in retail stores. On the other hand there was Peter Jennings, a very successful journalist who didn't even finish high school. I also personally know this guy who didn't finish high school who runs a very successful landscaping and remodeling business.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 18, 2015)

To add on to what I originally said in this post, I've never had much of a problem meeting the word count or length requirement in high school or college. I've always really liked writing and I've had much to say but the problem is you also have to take into question the reader and this can also be when you're writing stuff that where the reader isn't your teacher. Lots of readers aren't going to want to put aside the time to read 3000 words instead of just 100. When you do write really long papers you get into the habit of that, and you do it whenever you write including when you post messages on internet forums. I've had that problem myself on the internet when I make a post and its too long for most people to want to read. I've mentioned this before in this thread but Im saying it again because nobody's addressed it.


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## InstituteMan (Mar 18, 2015)

Crowley K. Jarvis said:


> I stand with that statement,  that many go to college and waste time because they hardly get a job in that field, and usually end up finding higher paid work elsewhere...
> 
> Technical and financial reasons aside, I refuse to go to college of any kind simply because of the other young people. It's hand down a terrible environment in ANY part of the world... >...>
> 
> I'll go to a technical college if I must and learn something applicable to the world I'll actually be thrown into.



I certainly agree with you if you take the point of college to be to get a job. Lots of people feel that way, and college as career training is pushed pretty hard by school administrators and politicians and parents--but I still think that that's a terrible, horrible reason to go to college. 

Go to college to learn, and that will help you in ways you can't imagine and don't expect. You can learn through other experiences as well, of course, but college is a rare opportunity to focus your time and energy primarily on learning for the sake of learning. 

Go to college for vocational training, and the result will be ample disappointment for you both in college and after you leave.

Others may disagree, and I'm not trying to stir the pot here; that's just my opinion, and the way I am encouraging my children to approach their education.



PhotonGuy said:


> Only about 7% of the world population has college degrees.



Likely true (although I don't know the exact percentage off the top of my head), which is one reason why I am very grateful to have had the opportunity to go to college and get a degree at all. 

However, the 7% or so with degrees tend to be concentrated near one another aspiring to do similar work, so the notion that 93% of the world doesn't have a college degree is rather cold comfort if you only got the degree to get a job.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Mar 18, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Only about 7% of the world population has college degrees.



That's a really useless figure.  I assume you're counting all of the children who can't get a degree, all of the senior citizens who have no need for a degree, and all of the third world countries with no concept of a degree?


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## aj47 (Mar 18, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> To add on to what I originally said in this post, I've never had much of a problem meeting the word count or length requirement in high school or college. I've always really liked writing and I've had much to say but the problem is you also have to take into question the reader and this can also be when you're writing stuff that where the reader isn't your teacher. Lots of readers aren't going to want to put aside the time to read 3000 words instead of just 100. When you do write really long papers you get into the habit of that, and you do it whenever you write including when you post messages on internet forums. I've had that problem myself on the internet when I make a post and its too long for most people to want to read. I've mentioned this before in this thread but Im saying it again because nobody's addressed it.



I don't know anything about you but what you present here on this forum. I'm sure you speak for yourself when you talk about choosing a 100-word synopsis over a 3000-word article.  I'm also sure you don't speak for me.

 Currently, I'm reading a novel that is considerably more than 3k words long.  I have no trouble maintaining my interest. I'm sure I read more than 3k words in that novel this evening. And queued up next is a biography. So no, I don't just read fiction.  

If what you write is interesting, people_ will_ read it. If readers start dropping like flies after two paragraphs, it's not due to the length of what they haven't read, but rather the lack of engagement in what they _have_ read. The cure for this is to write better, not less.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 19, 2015)

astroannie said:


> I don't know anything about you but what you present here on this forum. I'm sure you speak for yourself when you talk about choosing a 100-word synopsis over a 3000-word article.  I'm also sure you don't speak for me.
> 
> Currently, I'm reading a novel that is considerably more than 3k words long.  I have no trouble maintaining my interest. I'm sure I read more than 3k words in that novel this evening. And queued up next is a biography. So no, I don't just read fiction.
> 
> If what you write is interesting, people_ will_ read it. If readers start dropping like flies after two paragraphs, it's not due to the length of what they haven't read, but rather the lack of engagement in what they _have_ read. The cure for this is to write better, not less.



Reading a novel is one thing. With message boards though, most people aren't going to read a 3000 word message. And it doesn't matter if what you write is good, lots of people will just scroll down without reading anything to see how long it is and if its too long they wont read it.


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## Sam (Mar 19, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Reading a novel is one thing. With message boards though, most people aren't going to read a 3000 word message. And it doesn't matter if what you write is good, lots of people will just scroll down without reading anything to see how long it is and if its too long they wont read it.



What's your point? 

In the past two weeks, I've read over a dozen journals, student essays, and articles while researching for a university paper. All of them were over 2,000 words long. Why did I read them? Because the people who wrote them are working in the same field as I am. There's a mutually beneficial advantage to be gained by reading the works of others. 

If I handed those pieces to a layman on the street, of course he wouldn't read them. He has no interest in reading them. They mean nothing to him. 

Most people don't refuse to read long messages because they're long. They don't read them because of two things: (a) the subject means little or nothing to them, and (b) they don't like reading. 

I've read several posts on this forum over 1,000 words long. Because I'm a reader. It's what I do.


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## aj47 (Mar 19, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Reading a novel is one thing. With message boards though, most people aren't going to read a 3000 word message. And it doesn't matter if what you write is good, lots of people will just scroll down without reading anything to see how long it is and if its too long they wont read it.



Okay, you're changing your point.  I suppose this is a kind of progress.  We've gone from word-count requirements in academic studies to discussing length of forum posts.

Okay, let's talk about forum posts. Where are you seeing requirements to post 3k worth of anything to any forum?  I'm genuinely curious because I am currently enrolled in online classes.  Part of what I am required to do is post to various forums to answer questions.  The requirement is also to post replies to a minimum of two of my peers. There is no word-count requirement.


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## JustRob (Mar 19, 2015)

Crowley K. Jarvis said:


> I stand with that statement,  that many go to college and waste time because they hardly get a job in that field, and usually end up finding higher paid work elsewhere...
> 
> Technical and financial reasons aside, I refuse to go to college of any kind simply because of the other young people. It's hand down a terrible environment in ANY part of the world... >...>
> 
> I'll go to a technical college if I must and learn something applicable to the world I'll actually be thrown into.



When I worked in a life assurance company one chap in my department had a degree in geology and another one in genetic engineering. Why? Don't we need geologists or genetic engineers any more? Another was a music teacher and ... well you get the idea. I didn't even bother to study for a degree and just walked into the same job anyway but several years earlier, so I had more useful experience than them. Competition for jobs may be fiercer nowadays but I doubt that the degree subjects and jobs match up any better.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Mar 19, 2015)

JustRob said:


> When I worked in a life assurance company one chap in my department had a degree in geology and another one in genetic engineering. Why? Don't we need geologists or genetic engineers any more? Another was a music teacher and ... well you get the idea. I didn't even bother to study for a degree and just walked into the same job anyway but several years earlier, so I had more useful experience than them. Competition for jobs may be fiercer nowadays but I doubt that the degree subjects and jobs match up any better.



I'm working as a programmer for a major shipping company, and all of my coworkers (except the intern) have degrees in either computer science, software engineering, or something similar.  Some jobs can be done by anyone, sure, but there are many jobs where a the education a degree requires is essential.  Put another way, I'm guessing you'll find a lot more life insurance (the word I assume you meant to type) employees with non-life insurance degrees than you would find geologists and genetic engineers without geology and genetic engineering degrees.

You can't control the market demand for a profession, but a degree can certainly determine whether or not you're even eligible to be employed in that field.


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## aj47 (Mar 19, 2015)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> I'm working as a programmer for a major shipping company, and all of my coworkers (except the intern) have degrees in either computer science, software engineering, or something similar.  Some jobs can be done by anyone, sure, but there are many jobs where a the education a degree requires is essential.  Put another way, I'm guessing you'll find a lot more life insurance (the word I assume you meant to type) employees with non-life insurance degrees than you would find geologists and genetic engineers without geology and genetic engineering degrees.
> 
> You can't control the market demand for a profession, but a degree can certainly determine whether or not you're even eligible to be employed in that field.



My husband graduated with a degree in aerospace engineering.  He writes >geek alert< firmware for blade server enclosures.  For a computer manufacturing firm.  Why?  Because when he graduated, the jobs in aerospace weren't there. And he had student loan debt, so he had to take what he could get.  He couldn't sit around with his thumb up his rear waiting for an aerospace job.


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## JustRob (Mar 19, 2015)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> life insurance (the word I assume you meant to type)



In the UK we make a distinction between insurance against risks and assurance against death. Death is a certainty and hence the original companies which only sold whole of life contracts were called life assurance companies because they didn't insure anyone against an uncertainty but provided financial assurance for when the inevitable happened. Insurance companies may sell life assurance contracts but a company that sells solely life assurance is very precisely called by that name here. I mentioned on another thread that by sheer coincidence if you phoned MAFIA00 in London in the 1960s you were put through to an organisation that claimed to provide mutual life assurance, that being the one that I worked for. Despite my suggestion about this they never used it as a marketing aid but stuck with the numeric phone number 6234200. It was a very conservative company though.

Please remember to take into account the possibly different background of the writer of a post.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 19, 2015)

astroannie said:


> Okay, you're changing your point.  I suppose this is a kind of progress.  We've gone from word-count requirements in academic studies to discussing length of forum posts.
> 
> Okay, let's talk about forum posts. Where are you seeing requirements to post 3k worth of anything to any forum?  I'm genuinely curious because I am currently enrolled in online classes.  Part of what I am required to do is post to various forums to answer questions.  The requirement is also to post replies to a minimum of two of my peers. There is no word-count requirement.



     No, forums don't have a word count requirement but when you write long papers, essays, ect. you get into the habit and you start doing it with every type of writing, including forums. On a board such as this one most people probably will read long posts since this is a board all about writing and good writers are good readers. On boards about something else that might not be the case. I have had that problem in the past where people will make posts saying that my posts are too long and that they don't bother reading them. 

     I think its much more important to say good stuff and to make an effective point than to write thousands and thousands of words. If somebody can make their point in 1000 words just as well as somebody else in 3000 words I would be more impressed with the person who said it in 1000 words. I think that for classes where you write essays, the requirements should be based on writing good stuff and making good points, not on fulfilling a word count.



astroannie said:


> My husband graduated with a degree in aerospace engineering.  He writes >geek alert< firmware for blade server enclosures.  For a computer manufacturing firm.  Why?  Because when he graduated, the jobs in aerospace weren't there. And he had student loan debt, so he had to take what he could get.  He couldn't sit around with his thumb up his rear waiting for an aerospace job.



     Is he still trying to get the aerospace job? If your dream job isn't there you just need to do what you can at the time and if that's writing firmware for a computer company than that's what you should do, which is better than lots of jobs as it is. That doesn't mean you should give up on getting the job you want. I knew of this guy who wanted to make a living as a musician which can be really hard to do. He finally did get his big break in that field but until then he was painting houses to make a living. You got to do what you can do. My cousin's ex had a master's degree in English and after he lost his teaching job he would sit around and do nothing because working a low level job such as a cashier was "too good for him." Meanwhile my cousin who was pregnant with their child was working any job she could just to make ends meet such as the cashier job. Obviously they're no longer together and she is a single mom. Probably a good thing for the child since he would not make a good role model as a dad. So anyway, I hope he got the aerospace job or that he gets it eventually.


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## aj47 (Mar 19, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> No, forums don't have a word count requirement but when you write long papers, essays, ect. you get into the habit and you start doing it with every type of writing, including forums. On a board such as this one most people probably will read long posts since this is a board all about writing and good writers are good readers. On boards about something else that might not be the case. I have had that problem in the past where people will make posts saying that my posts are too long and that they don't bother reading them.
> 
> I think its much more important to say good stuff and to make an effective point than to write thousands and thousands of words. If somebody can make their point in 1000 words just as well as somebody else in 3000 words I would be more impressed with the person who said it in 1000 words. I think that for classes where you write essays, the requirements should be based on writing good stuff and making good points, not on fulfilling a word count.



If you can't tailor your writing to your audience, you have issues I'm not prepared to address.




PhotonGuy said:


> Is he still trying to get the aerospace job? If your dream job isn't there you just need to do what you can at the time and if that's writing firmware for a computer company than that's what you should do, which is better than lots of jobs as it is. That doesn't mean you should give up on getting the job you want. I knew of this guy who wanted to make a living as a musician which can be really hard to do. He finally did get his big break in that field but until then he was painting houses to make a living. You got to do what you can do. My cousin's ex had a master's degree in English and after he lost his teaching job he would sit around and do nothing because working a low level job such as a cashier was "too good for him." Meanwhile my cousin who was pregnant with their child was working any job she could just to make ends meet such as the cashier job. Obviously they're no longer together and she is a single mom. Probably a good thing for the child since he would not make a good role model as a dad. So anyway, I hope he got the aerospace job or that he gets it eventually.



He is happy with his job.  He didn't start here 25 years ago...he started with firmware for a petrochemical outfit.  I don't intend to speak for him, but dreams are malleable and having challenging work you enjoy is a luxury not everyone has.


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## Jeko (Mar 19, 2015)

> you get into the habit and you start doing it with every type of writing, including forums.



Do you do it with text messages? I write essays every week, but I can still 'lol' with the best of them.


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## LOLeah (Mar 23, 2015)

Disclaimer: I do not have the same scholarly accolades as the original poster or some of the responders. Lol I went to public school in a poor district and didn't finish college. 

My formal education was satisfactory but it was not a huge factor in my cultivation as a writer. I believe the courses I took in which I wrote essays were teaching me invaluable skills when it comes to writing but I agree with you that being a reader, a passionate lover of literature, is what planted the seed and sowed it. But I don't feel essay writing is at all detrimental. Especially considering all the people who just need those writing cornerstones to be successful in careers they pursue that aren't writing.


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## KellInkston (Mar 23, 2015)

No educational system is flawless, as humans are never flawless. Knowing this, I still feel it's worth saying that there is much to gain with long word counts. Often I see most of the opponents against long word counts are those who have enough to say, but do not know they do. They are the sort that have not yet developed (or simply refuse to use) their ability to expound and create new thought and discussion. It's one thing to repeat knowledge, it's an entirely different thing, and the mark of great learning, to synthesize new knowledge and thought.

So yes, I do feel the educational system can detract some things, but I feel it would be hard to do writing better than writing under pressure- which they should, and usually do provide.


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## The Green Shield (Mar 24, 2015)

Oi, high school and college was where my 'writing bug' kicked in. I based some of my own characters off of the people I liked and disliked in those two settings.


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