# How Does A Grown Up Write YA?



## VonBradstein (Nov 9, 2017)

Serious question, I️ am generally curious. I’ve been sorely tempted to give writing a good YA or even a middle grade book a shot but I️ can’t get my head round it...

I️ am a man in his thirties with no kids in that age group or close to it. I️ have not been near a high school in over a decade and high school in the early 2000’s seems like quite a different place. I️ know no teenagers and have no reason to get to know any. It seems to me a lot of YA authors are from similar circumstances...

I️ have skimmed through “good YA” and it is very good, for the most part, so I’m not here to sneer at the genre whatsoever. Like I️ say, I️ would potentially be interested in giving it a go but the idea of writing about underage kids for underage kids fills me with doubt. In fact, to be brutally honest, it makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable. Like I’m sneaking my way into the prom - Especially if we are talking underage romances, etc. I️ could probably deal with an unworldly tale, Life of Pi or Gaiman type stuff, but nothing close to home whatsoever. 

So how do you do it? And, if I️ might ask, why?


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## Thaumiel (Nov 9, 2017)

I have no idea either but I have a research suggestion. You mentioned you'd skimmed through some examples of good YA fiction. Have you considered going back and having a read through the books that you read when you were in the target age group? It might be useful to figure out what you read, why you chose to read it and why you enjoyed it.


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## VonBradstein (Nov 9, 2017)

James 剣 斧 血 said:


> I have no idea either but I have a research suggestion. You mentioned you'd skimmed through some examples of good YA fiction. Have you considered going back and having a read through the books that you read when you were in the target age group? It might be useful to figure out what you read, why you chose to read it and why you enjoyed it.



It's a decent suggestion, however I guess I got into adult fiction a little earlier. YA wasn't quite as big a thing back then, maybe.

I liked the Goosebumps series. I still have a special place in my heart for Piano Lessons Can Be Murder. However they're plain godawful to me now.

I think the hardest part for me to swallow is that a YA book really has to be written from the POV of a kid. It has to be about kid problems and kid dreams and kid desires. To me it's rather like if somebody asked me to write a book in French. I can speak and write grammatically correct conversational French but its not 'my language' and trying to conjure up a decent story about living in France and written in a register that is authentically French would be extremely difficult.


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## andrewclunn (Nov 9, 2017)

Normal book with a protagonist that's a teen or kid, no sexually explicit content.  Death can be dealt with, but no detailed descriptions of dying itself.  90% of the words used come form this list ( http://www.ef.com/english-resources/english-vocabulary/top-1000-words/ )  Congratulations, you've just written a YA piece.


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## VonBradstein (Nov 9, 2017)

andrewclunn said:


> Normal book with a protagonist that's a teen or kid, no sexually explicit content.  Death can be dealt with, but no detailed descriptions of dying itself.  90% of the words used come form this list ( http://www.ef.com/english-resources/english-vocabulary/top-1000-words/ )  Congratulations, you've just written a YA piece.



But isn’t there supposed to be some kind of moral message or lesson? Or is that for dusty old geezers like me who grew up on Narnia?


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## andrewclunn (Nov 9, 2017)

VonBradstein said:


> But isn’t there supposed to be some kind of moral message or lesson? Or is that for dusty old geezers like me who grew up on Narnia?



Depends.  After a Newbery medal?  Kill the dog at the end.  A Prometheus award?  The government is evil.  Either pandering to the Christians, or getting them to be outraged so they protest are both good strategies.  Right now I'd say pandering to them is the more profitable one because it's the less exploited market at the moment.  Or if you really want to go deep, you could always write a deeply disturbing adult themed novel, then turn all the characters into anthropomorphized animals.  Instant YA, plus internet points for readily available furry fan-fiction.


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## VonBradstein (Nov 9, 2017)

andrewclunn said:


> Depends.  After a Newbery medal?  Kill the dog at the end.  A Prometheus award?  The government is evil.  Either pandering to the Christians, or getting them to be outraged so they protest are both good strategies.  Right now I'd say pandering to them is the more profitable one because it's the less exploited market at the moment.  Or if you really want to go deep, you could always write a deeply disturbing adult themed novel, then turn all the characters into anthropomorphized animals.  Instant YA, plus internet points for readily available furry fan-fiction.



Not really selling this to me, chap. I’m now half tempted to wander into the YA section of this forum and accuse them all of being money grabbing furries.

Will ensure if I️ do that I️ stick to only using words on that list you provided.


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## Terry D (Nov 9, 2017)

This is one I can't help with. My wife has tried to get me to write YA (she thinks it fits my personality) but I've told her I can't write what doesn't interest me to read. Even when I was a kid I didn't read the YA of the time -- things like The Hardy Boys, and Tom Swift. I was reading Poe, Bradbury, and Clarke. Back then most books weren't written to age groups. Burroughs' Tarzan and John Carter books, while they appealed to young boys, were targeted at adults. The same goes for Robert Louis Stevenson's work, and Jules Verne. Now, we try to segment everything and the marketers define what 'young adults' should be reading. To quote our president,... sad.


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## andrewclunn (Nov 9, 2017)

I'm not trying to sell you on anything.  Genres of literature do not exist outside of the structure used to sell and market them.  Same with music and movies.  These aren't hard and fast rules entrenched in literature itself, or emergent groupings that came from the ground up.  They're used for marketing purposes, so any analysis of a "genre" in this way will invariably be cynical and sales based if honest.


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## VonBradstein (Nov 9, 2017)

Well this has been tremendously depressing. Just kidding, but it’s strange to me and I️ hope one of the YA authors will chime in because as it stands I’m pretty clueless.

My whole beef and the reason this started swimming in my head is that I️ submitted a novel a few months back that I️ had written for an adult audience however two separate agents were lovely and said I️ should try the YA market because they thought the concept would be popular - science fiction time travel set during world war two. I️ instantly thought “bully ho” and took out some of the nastier swear words/boob comments/drug references and whipped it off to some YA agents only to be told that the book wasn’t appropriate for YA. Specifically the issue was that the protagonist was an adult man in his forties and there was too much “graphic violence”. I️ mean, I️ get the whole deal with values and stuff but when I️ was a kid all I️ liked to read was Jules Verne in which every character is a man in his forties or so and there is plenty of violence (burning wives on fires, electrocuting natives, etc) and nobody thinks that scores above a PG-13 now. So basically I’m close to calling bullshit on the whole market. Which stinks, because like I️ say I️ rather liked a couple of the books I️ looked at and wouldn’t mind writing for that age group in theory. But if what I️ would write won’t sell I’m not going to waste the time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## andrewclunn (Nov 9, 2017)

I mean this in all seriousness, but if you made it a kid or teen somehow magically seeing their future life, with cuts to their internal monologue asking, "Why am I doing this?" or disagreeing with their future self's actions, while being powerless to do anything other than observe...  In all seriousness, that might work.


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## VonBradstein (Nov 9, 2017)

andrewclunn said:


> I mean this in all seriousness, but if you made it a kid or teen somehow magically seeing their future life, with cuts to their internal monologue asking, "Why am I doing this?" or disagreeing with their future self's actions, while being powerless to do anything other than observe...  In all seriousness, that might work.



I️ appreciate the encouragement but for that particular piece the word count was already 104,000 words and that was stripped down from 121,000 on draft one - so to retroactively insert a kid narrative (actually the first few chapters did have the protagonist as a kid in the past which might have contributed to the initial referral) would essentially require a total plot overhaul. 

Oh and did I️ mention the YA agents also complained it was too long for their market? Can’t win sometimes.


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## andrewclunn (Nov 9, 2017)

Well then perhaps serialize it.  Is it possible to take the story and break it down into smaller pieces and works?  The other thought is that the publishers didn't read passed a certain point, assumed it was young adult, and you're taking their advice too seriously.  Something to keep in mind is that publishers are driven by what sells, which means that first time authors don't usually get to take chances.


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## VonBradstein (Nov 9, 2017)

andrewclunn said:


> Well then perhaps serialize it.  Is it possible to take the story and break it down into smaller pieces and works?  The other thought is that the publishers didn't read passed a certain point, assumed it was young adult, and you're taking their advice too seriously.  Something to keep in mind is that publishers are driven by what sells, which means that first time authors don't usually get to take chances.



Yeah. It’s definitely a chancy novel. I️ have an agent in Chicago reading it right now. In the meantime I️ am putting it away.


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## Kyle R (Nov 9, 2017)

Well, for one thing, if you're thinking of writing YA fiction, you probably should read some of it. You mention skimming it—which is certainly better than nothing—but it's still shy of actually engrossing yourself in a book.

Goodreads has an ever-growing list that you can peruse through (https://www.goodreads.com/genres/young-adult). If you have an idea of what kind of YA you want to write, it certainly can't hurt to read something similar.

In terms of generalities, though, I'd say the main thing is that your POV characters be in their teens. Beyond that, everything can vary, and a lot depends on the story-world, the conflict, the character motivations . . .

I'd say that the main thing that differentiates adult fiction from YA is that YA is a bit more "PG-13"—a little less swearing, less gratuitous violence, less graphic sex. You can still have those things, but just tempered for a younger audience.

One of the unique things about YA is that _coming of age_ perspective that so often appears in it—the thrill and the uncertainty of navigating first loves, first heartbreaks, first brushes with death, et cetera.

Mostly, though, I wouldn't overthink it. Writing a character of another age is just like writing a character of another gender, race, or even species: you just need to put yourself into their shoes. (Easier said than done, of course. But you know how it goes!) :encouragement:


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## Jack of all trades (Nov 9, 2017)

I think there are two mistakes being made. One is thinking that a few minor edits transforms an adult novel into a YA novel. The other is thinking that two agents rejecting a novel means it won't be accepted by anyone.

If you don't want to become a YA novelist, then don't expend any energy in that direction. Because if you do succeed, you won't be happy. I'm reminded of two stories about two singers. One did as her agent wanted and recorded a song that was hugely popular. She hated the song, but sang it often because her fans wanted to hear her sing it. That song was like nails on a chalkboard every concert. The other singer followed his mother's advice and only recorded songs he wouldn't mind singing every day. He, too, had a song that was hugely popular, only he didn't mind. Neither singer's life was ruined, but the second one was happier.


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## Roac (Nov 9, 2017)

I have read through a few of the YA books that my kids have and I would agree with some of the other comments that, for the most part, the MC should be more of a teen. I think the target audience just has a better ability to relate to a MC that is closer to their age, rather to a forty year old. I see that every day in the way my teens interact with their friends and with adults. 

The other thing that comes to mind is the simplicity in the words used. The reading skills of these teens also might not be the same as an adult, resulting in the kids skipping over words or scenes that they don’t understand. Simple writing might be better.

Just a couple of things to keep in mind and just my opinion.

Good luck with the book!


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## bdcharles (Nov 9, 2017)

It seems that NA (New Adult) is, in marketing terms, now a "thing". That is, as far as I can ascertain, like YA but a bit more edgy. When I went to a literary fest last year, the agents I met told me my WIP is quite YA - that's just the way it came out, though that was not entirely what I expected, having fancied myself a bit of a Steampunk Dickens. But I don't mind too much. The issue was that my characters are mostly in their early 20s. Of course, anyone in their early 20s knows that they don't behave with the pristine deportment of a squeaky clean YA heroine; so it is with my lot. But I did trim some of the more racy stuff, but then, having submitted to a load of YA agents and got back a pretty rapid "it's not for us" type reply, I'm thinking of the NA genre, if any. But really, I have just written it as it is, with no particular market in mind (other than myself and people who like the same writers I do) but if it fits into some prescribed notion of what people want, then that's ok. As long as I don't have to change it too much.


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## aj47 (Nov 9, 2017)

I read YA in my youth but not because it was YA ... because it was fantasy and my library (small town) had stuff that won Newbery awards (Dark is Rising series leaps to mind).  ("And when the dark is rising, six shall turn it back ...")

I'm of a "certain age" when we played Dungeons & Dragons in secret (in high school) because it might lead to Satanic possession and ... well, you get the idea.  We called it "chess club" (and did play in USCF / FIDE chess tournaments on weekends ....).

Sure, we all read Lord of the Rings but there wasn't a lot else available to us locally.


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## EmmaSohan (Nov 9, 2017)

If you get a chance to talk to a teen:

1. You want to avoid being an adult trying to help them, advise them, guide them, etc. You don't want them assuming you are gathering information about them just so you can give them a lecture. Instead, just listen and be curious.
2. Assume they are right and making their best choices for the world they live in. They probably are.
3. If possible, back-engineer what their world might be from those choices.

If you get better at knowing where they are at, you can talk to them more easily. For example, you would know, say, that you can possibly ask about their extracurriculars.

Someone told a story about texting with his granddaughter, her complaining that he didn't use enough exclamations marks, and him explaining to her the proper use of exclamation marks. That was wrong in multiple ways.

In the book I just set down (I hope forever), the teen acted about 30 with intermittent spurts of exaggerated teen-age grammar.

Writing different ages is fun, but teen has to be the hardest. In a way, if you aren't a teen, it's impossible -- I remember a teen reader pointing out that a high school junior would not care about posters in his/her room. How was I supposed to know? Just one year makes a difference. (The book I was just reading had a convoluted explanation of why a senior was taking a schedule suited for a junior.)

I love personal growth, so it's the perfect age for me to write. Have fun! Good luck!


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## VonBradstein (Nov 9, 2017)

Jack of all trades said:


> I think there are two mistakes being made. One is thinking that a few minor edits transforms an adult novel into a YA novel. The other is thinking that two agents rejecting a novel means it won't be accepted by anyone.
> 
> If you don't want to become a YA novelist, then don't expend any energy in that direction. Because if you do succeed, you won't be happy. I'm reminded of two stories about two singers. One did as her agent wanted and recorded a song that was hugely popular. She hated the song, but sang it often because her fans wanted to hear her sing it. That song was like nails on a chalkboard every concert. The other singer followed his mother's advice and only recorded songs he wouldn't mind singing every day. He, too, had a song that was hugely popular, only he didn't mind. Neither singer's life was ruined, but the second one was happier.



Hey Jack,

The issue isn't really about me wanting or not wanting to be a YA novelist. I am fairly indifferent about genres and have frequently said on here I would consider writing in almost any genre that's of current interest provided I get sufficient creative license within that genre to tell my story. I don't believe on limiting oneself to genre or audience. There are areas of interest in almost anything.

The original post was about why any grown adult would want to write YA - a question, for the record, that is not intended to belittle nor dismiss the genre - and also how: How does a middle aged adult write convincingly the characters and issues that are of interests to 'today's youth'? I think that is a highly intriguing question and see no shade of an answer to it in your posting.

Regarding my attempt: I have not given up on my novel - i have simply put it away for the time being. The original edition is being read, as mentioned, by a (non YA) literary agent and that's fine. Thing is, that can take months as we all know. In the meantime, I have better things to do than hand-wring over the status of a novel. I don't enjoy querying (I doubt any writer does) so for sanity's sake I am writing something else for the winter.

 As far as the stuff about rejection, this isn't really the thread for that, however I would say as I always do that I am as open to rejection as I am to acceptance in that I believe in listening to the feedback and refocusing accordingly. Did not state at any point that I believed it would not be accepted by anyone based on the rejections i have received. There is no way I could know that, nor would speculating on it be helpful. To the degree that it is relevant in any way to a thread about YA, I am simply using it as an example of trying to find a good market for my book and considering YA as a possible one. It's no more than that.


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## VonBradstein (Nov 9, 2017)

EmmaSohan said:


> If you get a chance to talk to a teen:
> 
> 1. You want to avoid being an adult trying to help them, advise them, guide them, etc. You don't want them assuming you are gathering information about them just so you can give them a lecture. Instead, just listen and be curious.
> 2. Assume they are right and making their best choices for the world they live in. They probably are.
> ...



Thanks, this is helpful. 

A common thing I've noticed too is that often times these kids don't really act like kids. There are some token references here and there but it doesn't 'feel' like a kid talking. Often the characters in YA are much, much too mentally mature to seem fourteen or whatever. Other times, paradoxically, a YA author seems to decide that they will portray a ten year old as a borderline infant. In other words, there seems to be a lot of confusion as to the actual age group and this kind of feeds into my viewpoint that this kind of writing is just very difficult - perhaps even impossible - to write really convincingly.

I mentioned Gaiman. There are some great YA stories. I've said it before and will again that regardless of how convincing or not a YA character is there are some great stories out there. I believe you can have a very good book with a problematic or even unsympathetic main character. "Coraline" is a pretty good example. Excellent YA book, great story, nice and dark and twisted in all the right places, but Coraline herself does not strike me as being believable as a little girl (I'm not sure if he even states her exact age in the book) for an instant. Coraline, like so many, strikes me more as an adult woman who happens to live with her parents. She is too smart, too sardonic, too stupid at times, and just too straightforward. She doesn't throw temper tantrums or pick her nose. Her room is rather clean. She is not a believable character.

In that book it doesn't matter because the world is not believable anyway and I suspect is more selected as an avatar for innocence than as a human. The book makes sense because it's just a fantasy story. The authors who give me more pause for thought ones like John Green - Fault In Our Stars, etc. John Green is a good writer, but I am not sure why. He is a man in his forties with no children and no experience that might bring him into contact with them (not a schoolteacher or anything) who nevertheless writes almost exclusively about teenagers and often in quite sexually explicit ways ("Looking For Alaska" is a good example). And I just don't know about those folks.

I mean, what personal experiences is he drawing on to do this? And why? Personal growth aside, you can write about adults experiencing personal growth, too. I'm not trying to denigrate the character of writers like Green but I find his and his ilk's techniques (which are clearly well honed) and motives rather perplexing.


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## Kyle R (Nov 10, 2017)

VonBradstein said:


> The authors who give me more pause for thought ones like John Green - Fault In Our Stars, etc. John Green is a good writer, but I am not sure why. He is a man in his forties with no children and no experience that might bring him into contact with them (not a schoolteacher or anything) who nevertheless writes almost exclusively about teenagers and often in quite sexually explicit ways ("Looking For Alaska" is a good example). And I just don't know about those folks.
> 
> I mean, what personal experiences is he drawing on to do this? And why? Personal growth aside, you can write about adults experiencing personal growth, too. I'm not trying to denigrate the character of writers like Green but I find his and his ilk's techniques (which are clearly well honed) and motives rather perplexing.



I know I'm nitpicking here, but John Green actually has a son and a daughter. 

If you're asking about his motives for writing, say, _The Fault in Our Stars_, this article explains quite a bit about it, in his own words: https://parade.com/256468/viannguye...se-from-fault-in-our-stars-author-john-green/. :encouragement:


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## VonBradstein (Nov 10, 2017)

Kyle R said:


> I know I'm nitpicking here, but John Green actually has a son and a daughter.
> 
> If you're asking about his motives for writing, say, _The Fault in Our Stars_, this article explains quite a bit about it, in his own words: https://parade.com/256468/viannguye...se-from-fault-in-our-stars-author-john-green/. :encouragement:



Ah yes! Thank you Wikipedia, where would we be without you?

I️ must have got him confused with somebody else. What I️ know about writers mainly comes from interviews and I️ sometimes mix em up.

Anyway, to be clear I’m not saying he doesn’t have inspiration. Obviously he does. His books are pretty damn good, too. I️ actually remember reading a similar article when FIOS came out. It’s just odd to me he and many others are so good at it and that they find it interesting to begin with. I️ suppose ones interests are a mysterious and inexplicable thing - I️ can’t really explain why I️ find demons interesting, I️ just do - but how somebody finds such affinity with teenagers is strange to me.


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## Jack of all trades (Nov 10, 2017)

EmmaSohan said:


> If you get a chance to talk to a teen:
> 
> 1. You want to avoid being an adult trying to help them, advise them, guide them, etc. You don't want them assuming you are gathering information about them just so you can give them a lecture. Instead, just listen and be curious.
> 2. Assume they are right and making their best choices for the world they live in. They probably are.
> ...



College students have posters, and may care about such. Like most things, it's personal.

Think back to when you were a teen. What occupied your thoughts? How did you and your friends react to various things? What did you talk about? Those are all keys to getting (back) into the mind of a teen. Sure, times are different. But teens are largely the same. Branching out on their own. Spreading their wings. Making the first attempts at leaving the nest. And some thirty year olds still behave like teens, making it easier to get in the mindset, one would think. Funnily enough though, it often doesn't work out that way.


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## Terry D (Nov 10, 2017)

I don't think writing from the POV of a teen is really all that difficult. After all, as an adult I've had the experience of being a teen at every stage. While the stressors in today's world are different than they were when I was that age, the kids themselves are not. All I have to do is try and understand the pressures in play now, which, I could argue, aren't really much different than they were when I was a teen. The primary difference now is the need to be able to process much more information coming at you. The things teens face today, they faced 20, 30, 40, 60, or 70 years ago as well. Use the advantage of having been there, done that.

In my first novel the protagonist is 19, in my second the protagonist is 12. I frequently write short fiction from the perspective of children and young adults. I just don't write young adult fiction.


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## VonBradstein (Nov 10, 2017)

Terry D said:


> I don't think writing from the POV of a teen is really all that difficult. After all, as an adult I've had the experience of being a teen at every stage. While the stressors in today's world are different than they were when I was that age, the kids themselves are not. All I have to do is try and understand the pressures in play now, which, I could argue, aren't really much different than they were when I was a teen. The primary difference now is the need to be able to process much more information coming at you. The things teens face today, they faced 20, 30, 40, 60, or 70 years ago as well. Use the advantage of having been there, done that.
> 
> In my first novel the protagonist is 19, in my second the protagonist is 12. I frequently write short fiction from the perspective of children and young adults. I just don't write young adult fiction.



I️ think the crucial difference is simply writing well from the point of view of a teenager and writing from the point of view of a teenager in a way that teenagers themselves like to read.

Like you I️ frequently write from the point of view of younger/elder people, however the audience I️ am writing for is the same audience I️ pretty much always write for - basically myself. I️ try to capture an accurate perspective of course, however when I️ write about a ten year old boy in first person I️ never write it with ten year olds in mind.

I️ think there’s actually a pretty surprising gulf between what we as adults think teenagers are like and what they are actually like and there in lies the difficulty. Surprising because as you mention we were all kids once but even if I️ try I️ can’t accurately recall what I️ felt about things as a teenager. I️ remember being a little punk and caring about mainly dumb stuff and that’s about it. I️ can’t go back and recapture those things now without seeing it through the lenses of time. I️ feel that’s pretty normal and that’s what I️ don’t get - how people get past that and capture things in a fresh way. 

It’s either a question of how they have such good memory (if calling upon their own experience of being a kid) or such good observation, empathy and imaginary skills (if calling upon those of other kids around now). I️ suspect there’s a degree of both aspects involved, but it still begs the question for me.


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## EmmaSohan (Nov 10, 2017)

To be cynical, your submission goes to an agent who is not a teen, who tries to sell it to a publisher who is also not a teen.



> It was official: I was blind
> At least that's what I thought until Kit rolled over and helped me pluck my puffy eyes apart. "I told you not to wear false eyeglasses in bed," she said.



This start quickly establishes that the main character is histrionic, makes bad decisions, and doesn't take good advice. Which -- still being cynical -- might be how that publisher views his teenage daughter.

Small point: I suspect "official" is incorrect usage of this slang. Next sentence:



> I started crying all over again and pouted at her.



Add overemotional; the character is a high school senior. Everything else about this book seems weak (so far), so I'm guessing this book was published for its exciting portrayal of the angsty teen. And sold to librarians who . . . wait for it . . . are not teens. One review:



> Okay. So. I hated the main character. She was very whiny, ungrateful, pretentious, immature, and incredibly over dramatic. She complained so much. I'm not a fan of people who complain a lot, especially when they're fortunate in many ways. Piper was very fortunate and blessed but she just complained about everything. Her immaturity was sky high. I felt like I was reading the diary of a bratty, privileged eight year old.


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## EmmaSohan (Nov 13, 2017)

To give a more serious answer. I would guess Twilight hits the sweet spot between too mature and too immature. To me, it's typical for how mature (or immature) a high school junior or senior would be presented in a book. And of course it succeeded in appealing to reader. You would only have to read a chapter or two I think.

Or she's unusually perceptive, but that's useful in a first-person narration.


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## moderan (Nov 14, 2017)

***


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## VonBradstein (Nov 14, 2017)

EmmaSohan said:


> To give a more serious answer. I would guess Twilight hits the sweet spot between too mature and too immature. To me, it's typical for how mature (or immature) a high school junior or senior would be presented in a book. And of course it succeeded in appealing to reader. You would only have to read a chapter or two I think.
> 
> Or she's unusually perceptive, but that's useful in a first-person narration.



The problem I have with stuff like Twilight is it smacks of adult-oriented fiction that is simply not well written enough to actually be read by (most) adults. Of course a lot of adults _do _read Twilight but my impression of those folks is that they aren't really big readers to begin with and never have been - so are kind of well-suited to a YA book. Twilight, from what little I have sniffed into it, is YA that has sufficient numbers of 'mature' themes (specifically romance/sex) to be of interest to some adult readers. That may well be what you mean by sweet spot, and if so I would agree entirely..

...HOWEVER I think Twilight is an unfortunate example of YA. Unfortunate because it is so incompetently written and with such dismally awful characters and message (the girl in particular seemed like a completely horrible individual). As a dad my skin actually crawls at the idea that a child/teenager could read a book like that and find it influential as an example of how to write or as a story. Let alone any adult.

Good YA to me is something like Harry Potter, with strong youth and adult appeal and which also happens to be one of the finest examples of fantasy storytelling in years - in my opinion. I'm not a huge Potter fan but Rowling is a fantastic writer and I love how her writing matures throughout the stories in harmony with her characters. To me that's the sweet spot. 

One thing I do notice about HP though is that the way it is written does not seem to strongly copy what other writers attempt to do to capture the world of kids. That is, there are no striking pop culture references, no attempts at appropriating juvenile slang, not fully engaged with the romantic themes that dominate teenage life, and although convincingly childlike the children featured do not strike as products of a particular time. There's humor, but the humor is the kind that translates well to an adult audience. Its rather vanilla humor, really. To an extent the relationships and love interests - what few there are - seem similarly toned down. In that particular story it makes sense - it would be weird as hell if everybody in Hogwarts was getting it on with one another. The story, in other words, is relatively safe (unless you're a Southern Baptist). If there is any concession to the younger audience it seems to be solely in the simplification of language and, obviously, the fact the story mainly features children and childlike ideals surrounding magic, etc. I think Rowling's real genius is her ability to write well and without a shred of pretentiousness and still capture a childlike world.

The key issues though for me are (1) How does one write a story with the strength of Harry Potter without a fantasy element - i.e portrayed in an entirely realistic setting and with issues like sex, crime, financial hardship and whatever else - as it would seem much harder if one was attempting to write similarly successfully about, say, a public school in Chicago and (2) What would the purpose of the story be? In Potter the intent behind the novel is obvious to me  - it is about the conflict between forces of good and forces of evil. As we all know, good and evil is a more vaguely recognizable thing in the real world of children and even more vague if one is an adult. How does one find something in real youth culture that they can know about enough to create such a story without the benefit of wizardry and also find a voice to pull it off?


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## moderan (Nov 14, 2017)

> ...HOWEVER I think Twilight is an unfortunate example of YA. Unfortunate because it is so incompetently written and with such dismally awful characters and message (the girl in particular seemed like a completely horrible individual). As a dad my skin actually crawls at the idea that a child/teenager could read a book like that and find it influential as an example of how to write or as a story. Let alone any adult.




HP is reminiscent in tone and subject of (typically) Golden Age sf/fantasy like Pratt and DeCamp's Enchanter series or Madeleine L'Engle. Laudable. Doesn't engage me but well-done. Gordon Dickson's Dragon Series has similar effect...possibly because Dickson was nurtured during the latter Golden Age and has retained his style and concerns.
Twilight is garbage through and through. I had to read some of it because my stepchildren were getting into it. I threw it against the wall after 40 pages. I'm going to stop there because I can easily rant for another forty pages.


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## VonBradstein (Nov 14, 2017)

moderan said:


> HP is reminiscent in tone and subject of (typically) Golden Age sf/fantasy like Pratt and DeCamp's Enchanter series or Madeleine L'Engle. Laudable. Doesn't engage me but well-done. Gordon Dickson's Dragon Series has similar effect...possibly because Dickson was nurtured during the latter Golden Age and has retained his style and concerns.
> Twilight is garbage through and through. I had to read some of it because my stepchildren were getting into it. I threw it against the wall after 40 pages. I'm going to stop there because I can easily rant for another forty pages.



Not to prompt the forty-page rant, but I think probably another huge reason for Twilight's success - and whatever we may feel about it, it was immensely successful - was because it captured a certain dark angst. Something that perhaps, perhaps, was not as widely aired in books aimed at young people beforehand. At least not in some time and to quite such an exploitative and explicit extent. And without the marketing backup.

At its core, Twilight and its ilk is gothic literature for those unable or uninterested to read actual gothic literature. It is horror fiction for the sensitive and placid-hearted. NOT with-a-capital-H-Horror but 'horror' - a kind of mindless ghost train cautiously dipping a single toe into the worlds of vampires, werewolves, self-destructive B.S, etc but never even considering its subject matter beyond a backdrop. The kind of book made to be toted by the self-identified outcast sat alone on the bus staring at people and built to be fashioned in as part of a burgeoning social media culture - a culture that is intrinsically reliant on people's ego and obsession with identity as part of its juju. It is token dark matter that happened to hit at a time when kids, some old enough to know better, were getting into 'dark shit' but not _really_. Hence the vampires are glitter-skinned and vegetarian and the werewolves are devilishly handsome and even heroic. At least that's my take. 

I remember walking into a Barnes & Noble right around 2009 or 2010 - so right when Twilight was peaking - and suddenly, inexplicably, seeing Edgar Allan Poe and H.P Lovecraft books pushed to the display counters. I had _never _seen that before - or since, actually. Well awesome, huh? Except these weren't ordinary books. These were large, hard beasts with sexy faux-leather covers and pretty illustrations made to resemble something from the Addams' family library. Books that nobody whatsoever would ever buy to read. I assume they did have the genuine text inside but I'll bet nobody would have noticed if it was Beatrix Potter. I have acquired a couple of such books (always ones I already own) as Christmas presents. They do look sort of pretty, but that is all they do. I also remember meeting several acquaintances who were committed enough to actually purchase such versions of "The Raven & Other Tales" or "Great Tales Of Lovecraftian Horror"  but who by their own admission never read them. They bought them because they complimented their blackened nail polish and eyeliner and looked good on their otherwise malnourished bookshelf. What they actually read, and liked to talk about, was freakin' Twilight.

In other words, Twilight is a great example of an extension of fashion into literature and of cynical marketing. Not a good YA book.


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## Jon M (Nov 14, 2017)

At this point I’d rather read _Twilight_​ than another screed about its awfulness.


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## Bayview (Nov 14, 2017)

I write and publish YA, and I'm an adult.

I do work with teens, so that helps me keep "current", but what's current now will be old-fashioned pretty soon, so... one of the secrets is to not be too specific about things. "They all grabbed their phones and started tapping away, sending news of my humiliation to everyone we knew plus a couple billion strangers" works better than "They all grabbed their phones and called up their Tumblr accounts..." or whatever. And if you're not too specific, it's really not that hard to just remember what it was like to be a teenager and add a few slightly more modern twists.

In terms of _why_ I write YA? Yeah, it's mostly marketing, but not necessarily in a cynical way. I'm interested in characters of all ages, so there's no reason _not_ to write teen characters. Once that's out of the way, YA is really flexible in that it's not really a genre, it's a marketing category. As an author, it's useful to stick to one main marketing category so you can build a readership, but I'm not good at that (hence three pen names!); YA is fairly unique in that I can write SF/F YA, contemporary YA, historical YA, YA romance, YA mystery... whatever I want! (Side note: this is also why I like writing romance - there are so many subcategories to explore). And teens are voracious readers, much more open to experimental writing than adult readers... they're fun!

So, that's my how and why. Now... back to writing!


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## EmmaSohan (Nov 14, 2017)

You're worrying me. You want to write Y/A, and you can't see any of the good in _Twilight_, one of the best-selling Y/A books of all time? (Since Y/A is all over the map in terms of style, the answer is that you can do it. But)

The narration within a dialogue can be about the dialogue. Anyone can do it, but it's really nice and not everyone knows to do it. My impression is that it is somewhat common in Y/A. Were you planning on using this supporting narration? Because, my impression is that Meyer is the best. I can't capture her. One of the best lines ever, in my opinion:



> "They are . . . very nice-looking." I struggled with the conspicuous understatement.



It is common in Y/A to use punctuation (italics, etc.) to create a character. Were you planning on doing that? Twilight is a Writing 101 lesson on doing that -- those characters don't exist without that use of ellipses and dashes. _Princess Diaries_ will also do nicely for an example.

Or, trivial example, but, Meyer avoids the plain "I said." You can think of that as bad writing and have a lot of company here at WF, but really "I said" is tottering on dinosaur status. It has its uses, but you should probably be avoiding it, and if you do use it as your go-to, you are likely to leave your reader wondering why all of your characters are unemotional.

Meyer also took one of the best lines ever and spoiled it by not pausing. So she's not perfect. I would advise against the "helpless female main character" ending.

No author does everything well, and frankly I am content with a few things well. So any good story should work. And if you just have some problem with Meyer (which no one has explained to me in terms of writing instead of plot) but you are fine with the rest of Y/A (_Speak_?), there's no problem and I will stop worrying. (My website has a page on narration within dialogue.)


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## moderan (Nov 14, 2017)

I'm not going to go back to any old rants, but you can find them yourself, through WF's handy search feature. Sam and I both explained Meyer's awfulness in terms of pure writing long ago. I don't have time to look up those examples. Unless I get exercised, which ain't bloody likely. Instead, here's a starter kit.
YA, like any other genre, is marketing and not reality (as noted above). I have nothing against it -- have written YA stories myself, and likely will again. Don't have any problem with any genre in the main. I'm in the middle of reimagining The Dunwich Horror as written by Barbara Cartland, told from Lavinia's POV, because someone wanted to buy it.
Von BradStein hit it right on the head -- it's goth lite for people who would walk into the Castle of Otranto on a dare. My stepsons used to steal my Lovecraft and Poe books. I just bought them sets of their own. I also introduced them to Walpole.


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## Terry D (Nov 14, 2017)

Thanks for posting the starter kit, Mod. The author lays out a brief case (not to be confused with a briefcase) against the writing, not the story, or Meyers' success, just the terrible writing. Back in the day when Twilight was a hot-button topic I did pick it up and start to read it. I quickly stopped. I was more upset with Meyers' editor than with the author. Whoever it was was lazy. Either that, or they were told, "Don't worry about the writing, this stuff is going to sell anyway."


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## moderan (Nov 14, 2017)

My guess is that the advertising campaign was backed by the Mormons. So the money spoke, and the editor, (Megan Tingley of Little, Brown), took a big check home as hush money and enjoyed the 'damage to her professional reputation'. The head of Little, Brown was dismissed not long thereafter and the books were subsumed into Hachette's ouevre.


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## Kyle R (Nov 14, 2017)

_Twilight_'s success (in my opinion) has a lot to do with one thing: selling the vampire to teens as a dreamy romantic lead.

What other story did that before Meyer's? I can't name one, and it could very well be because no other author did (at least, not at Meyer's mainstream level).

Sure, a lot of vampire fiction dipped its toes into the romantic waters before _Twilight_. Anne Rice spent decades hammering the old nail that vampires are irresistible predators. And even Bram Stoker toyed with the "tortured soul to be pitied, rather than a monster to be feared" perspective.

But those books were written for adults, and neither fully presented a vampire as the paranormal-teenage-romance that Meyer delivered.

Just as nobody had yet presented the zombie as the paranormal-teenage romance that Isaac Marion delivered with _Warm Bodies_. (Interestingly enough, both books became modern pop-culture phenomenons.)

There's a lot to be said about the writing, and even Meyer herself said that she wishes she could rewrite it better (the novel was, according to her, the first fictional story she'd ever written). And in the case of Marion's _Warm Bodies_, the writing was actually quite good.

But the obsession that [strike]Mary Sue[/strike] Bella Swan feels for the mysterious, tortured, supremely gorgeous Edward (who only has eyes for her, of course) was, apparently, infectious. Tween and teen girls ate it right up.

And why not? The beautiful, tortured soul who can't resist you, but does everything they can to do exactly that, because they don't want to hurt you. They'll also fight inhuman monsters to protect you from harm, before covering up their gorgeous features and running away, saying, "Don't! I'm a tragic soul! Stay away for your own good!" Couple that with a nice, unhealthy dose of loathing themselves for being so unique and damaged, in a way that only you can help them realize actually makes them _special_. Only _your_ love can fix them, after all.

I mean, really—how can anyone expect this kind of stuff _not_ to sell?


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## moderan (Nov 14, 2017)

Not to teens, but that is precisely what Universal did when they cast Lugosi. I get it. My issue is with the writing and the really dismal message. Edward Cullen is one of the worst characters I've ever seen...outside of perhaps Woody Allen or Roy Moore, to put the point on.


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## Terry D (Nov 14, 2017)

Kyle R said:


> _Twilight_'s success (in my opinion) has a lot to do with one thing: selling the vampire to teens as a dreamy romantic lead.
> 
> What other story did that before Meyer's? I can't name one, and it could very well be because no other author did (at least, not at Meyer's mainstream level).
> 
> ...



There's no denying that Meyer tapped into a rich vein (pun intended) and that the books were a cultural phenomenon. I just wish she could have made all that money with writing which shows, at a minimum, an average competency in the craft.


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## Kyle R (Nov 14, 2017)

TerryD said:
			
		

> There's no denying that Meyer tapped into a rich vein (pun intended) and that the books were a cultural phenomenon. I just wish she could have made all that money with writing which shows, at a minimum, an average competency in the craft.



I can agree with that.

On the topic of writing YA as an adult (just to steer things back to the topic and avoid yet another Meyer-bashing session ), I'd say that successful adult YA authors seem to genuinely share the emotions of their characters. For example, one can tell that Meyer really thought of Edward as a dreamy romantic lead. She likely didn't go into it thinking, "Hmm. What can I write that will sell well with teenage readers?"

In an interview, John Green mentioned that he cried while writing parts of _The Fault in Our Stars_—because that's how strongly he connected with and felt for his characters.

Which is to say, I believe if an author wants to write YA (at least, YA that emotionally connects with readers), they really have to put themselves into their characters' shoes. Personally, I wouldn't be able to a good YA story by approaching it from a "I'm an adult author who wants to write YA. How can I do this well?" mindset.

For me, the only way to really do it would be to forget about being an adult (and even forget about being an author), and just tumble headlong into my young protagonist's POV. :encouragement:


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## moderan (Nov 14, 2017)

Moar Meyer-bashing! LOL

Isn't that the way to write anygenre? If you don't mean it, how can it fly?


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## EmmaSohan (Nov 14, 2017)

Hmm. _Speak_, arguably one of the great books in Y/A, begins


> Itis my first morning of high school. I have seven new notebooks, askirt I hate, and a stomachache.



Great start. Okay. Just to make sure we are on the same page, the climactic scene:



> I follow the sound, pushing off the wall, pushing Andy Evans off-balance, stumbling into the broken sink. He curses and turns, his fist coming, coming. An explosion in my head and blood in my mouth. He hit me. I scream, scream. Why aren't the walls falling? I'm screaming loud enough to make the whole school crumble. I grab for anything, my potpourri bowl -- I throw it at him, it bounces to the floor. My books. He swears again. The door is locked the door is locked.



Great writing, obviously. And, for using punctuation to create a character, we can't beat Cabot's



> I CAN'T BELIEVE SHE'S DOING THIS TO ME!
> Like everybody doesn't already think I'm a freak.
> How much more of a freak could I be?
> Oh, God, if you really do exist, please don't let them find out about this.
> So out of TWO MILLION guys, she has to go out with Mr. Gianini.



I just want to make sure that you do not have a bias against what is more or less great writing, only Y/A, and maybe not the way people wrote pre-Crichton. Or are these bad too?


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## EmmaSohan (Nov 14, 2017)

moderan said:


> I'm not going to go back to any old rants, but you can find them yourself, through WF's handy search feature. Sam and I both explained Meyer's awfulness in terms of pure writing long ago. I don't have time to look up those examples. Unless I get exercised, which ain't bloody likely. Instead, here's a starter kit.



One of this article's three examples is a sentence where Meyer misuses a semi-colon. Not as badly as this hack:

You know how it is there early in the morning in Havana with the bums still asleep against the walls of the buildings; before even the ice wagons come by with ice for the bars? (Hemingway, To Have and Have Not, first sentence)

I suspect he didn't have the tools to handle a pause back then. Or this, I hated this:

Chatham lived with her aunt, because her mother was a drug addict and in jail; and she had never met her father. (Jodi Picoult)

The second example is a Meyer sentence with a misplaced modifier. But what do you think of these:



> She had a stethoscope over her shoulder, the bell already rusted from the salt air. (Jurassic Park,Crichton)
> 
> Muldoon was a burly man in khaki, sunglasses dangling from his shirt pocket.(Jurassic Park,Crichton, page 100)



Look, this is not really the issue. I already said Twilight has writing problems. I hate vampires, so I never had any expectations for the plot. My worry is that VonBradstein is missing the well written parts. Which would, you know, be like a serious problem. There is a wonderful genre mix. Take just how the story started in Phoenix rather than the more "logical" arriving in Washington. Bella is a fantastic character. The why-they-can't-fall-in-love-right-away is unique. I loved using the ideas from her book.


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## bdcharles (Nov 14, 2017)

My suspicion is that writers - some, not all - write what they write, in whatever style comes to them, and the decision to market as YA has a fair bit to do with their publisher and/or agent. I hope it's artist-driven like that anyway.


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## Kyle R (Nov 15, 2017)

moderan said:


> Sam and I both explained Meyer's awfulness in terms of pure writing long ago. I don't have time to look up those examples. Unless I get exercised, which ain't bloody likely. Instead, here's a starter kit.


Just to nitpick:

I have to disagree with point #3. ("Violation of Verb Tense Agreement")*
"Narrative verb tense needs to be consistent. If you’re in the past tense, stay in the past tense"* — Liz Bureman
​
This is just simply incorrect. In the case of a first-person, past-tense story, the narrator can interject their "current" thoughts into the past-tense narrative.

Example:

We sat on the rocks for what felt like hours, listening to the waves crash against the sand. To this day, I'm still not sure what we were waiting for.​
A past-tense sentence followed by a present-tense sentence. Oh, the humanity!

(Though, I do agree with the article's first two points.) :encouragement:


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## moderan (Nov 15, 2017)

The story started in Tucson. And that's all the further I'll say. Twilight isn't worth the words we've already spent.


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## Sam (Nov 15, 2017)

I don't even care about _Twilight _anymore. If people want to read it, let them knock themselves out. No skin off my teeth. 

But don't try to sell me on its great literary merit as a novel. It's a horrendously bad story, with horrendously bad role models as characters, topped off with horrendously bad writing. It's a trifecta of what you shouldn't do with a novel, and that it sold as much as it did says more about the state of the millennial world than anything else. 

Sorry, I said I didn't care about _Twilight _anymore. I'm shutting up now.


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## moderan (Nov 15, 2017)

Play it, Sam. _Play it_.


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## Terry D (Nov 15, 2017)

Kyle R said:


> Just to nitpick:
> 
> I have to disagree with point #3. ("Violation of Verb Tense Agreement")*
> "Narrative verb tense needs to be consistent. If you’re in the past tense, stay in the past tense"* — Liz Bureman
> ...



To be fair, Kyle, your example was an obvious choice to shift tense. Given the myriad other sins of Meyers' work, I doubt if her tense shift was planned.


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## Sam (Nov 15, 2017)

moderan said:


> Play it, Sam. _Play it_.



I don't know what you mean, Miss Ilsa.


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## Kyle R (Nov 15, 2017)

Sam said:


> It's a horrendously bad story, with horrendously bad role models as characters . . .



Might be a topic for another thread—but I've always found the "this character's a bad role model" argument a bit silly. To me, it's not the author's job to create role models—that's the parent's job.

I'd hate to sit around thinking, "I better make sure this character is exhibiting good role-model behavior!" while writing. And even if I were to think such a thing, I'd no doubt create poor role models for some readers, no matter how hard I tried not to (as not everyone values the same things).

To be fair, I'm not saying this in defense of _Twilight_—it's more of a pet peeve in general.


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## moderan (Nov 15, 2017)

Well, in this case, an extended Lolita narrative aimed at 'tweens is a pretty goddamn bad idea. I saw that crap airing on CBN, of all places. I am decidedly not Christian or righteous, but I am a grandfather of a sexually abused child, and this strikes me as pretty bad form.


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## Kyle R (Nov 15, 2017)

I mean, yes, _Twilight_ presents a lot of negative behaviors in a romantic fashion (stalking, possessiveness, et cetera). And as a parent, I certainly agree with the argument that this kind of behavior shouldn't be something we want our kids to idealize.

Though, from a writer's perspective, there's also the fact that he's, well, a vampire. If I were writing it, I'd have him act pretty badly. I'd probably have him rip the arm off any human boy that he sees flirting with her, or something. You know—vampire, and all that.

Granted, I'd probably have to give him a lot of redeeming scenes to put him back in the "good guy camp" after something like that—and doing so likely still wouldn't satisfy some readers. But: artistic license. And: parental guidance.

In _Warm __Bodies_, the zombie protagonist, R (who is also the romantic lead), is slowly evolving back into a living, breathing human. What started the transition? He killed—and ate the brain of—Julie's boyfriend. Unbeknownst to her, he's now using the memories of her dead boyfriend to court her.

A lot could be said about that narrative, too—not the least of which could be: "Girls, don't fall for boys who've killed your previous boyfriends." But, he's also a zombie. And (again): artistic license; parental guidance.


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## Sam (Nov 15, 2017)

Kyle R said:


> Might be a topic for another thread—but I've always found the "this character's a bad role model" argument a bit silly. To me, it's not the author's job to create role models—that's the parent's job.
> 
> I'd hate to sit around thinking, "I better make sure this character is exhibiting good role-model behavior!" while writing. And even if I were to think such a thing, I'd no doubt create poor role models for some readers, no matter how hard I tried not to (as not everyone values the same things).
> 
> To be fair, I'm not saying this in defense of _Twilight_—it's more of a pet peeve in general.



That's all right if you're writing books aimed at adults, but this is YA fiction we're talking about. When I was in my teens, for instance, I read a lot of The Hardy Boys books, by a certain 'Fenton W. Dixon'. I read them non-stop. And they did get up to mischief and trouble, but they certainly didn't stalk their girlfriends, slash their girlfriends' tyres, and control every aspect of their girlfriends' lives. Edward is downright sociopathic -- and you would not believe the amount of teenage girls who were (and still are) looking for their Edward Cullen out of a misguided notion that he behaved that way because he loved what's-her-name. 

I don't know about 'silly', but it's certainly crazy.


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## moderan (Nov 15, 2017)

Franklin W. Dixon wrote about Fenton Hardy's sons and their bud Chet. I actually have those books on my kindle. They're still decent reads. Dated, but decent.


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## Sam (Nov 15, 2017)

moderan said:


> Franklin W. Dixon wrote about Fenton Hardy's sons and their bud Chet. I actually have those books on my kindle. They're still decent reads. Dated, but decent.



Yeah, I was thinking of the boys' father, Fenton. 

I think I've said this before, but there was a new series of them released in the early '90s: it's called The Hardy Boys Casefiles, and it's far less dated then the other ones. 

Good reads.


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## moderan (Nov 15, 2017)

Sam said:


> Yeah, I was thinking of the boys' father, Fenton.
> 
> I think I've said this before, but there was a new series of them released in the early '90s: it's called The Hardy Boys Casefiles, and it's far less dated then the other ones.
> 
> Good reads.


Yeah. That's what prompted me to acquire them. Haven't read the casefiles yet though. I have vague plans to write one myself. Maybe crossed with a classic noir plot, like Brown Harvest did with Encyclopedia Brown and Hammett. Are you ready for "The Big Snipe"?


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## Jack of all trades (Nov 16, 2017)

This thread has taken an unexpected and interesting twist. I recall a thread a month or two ago when self censorship was slammed. Now that concept is being suggested, though only for YA. Interesting.


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## moderan (Nov 16, 2017)

Well, I'd suggest it for children's books, too. You have to keep the audience in mind, yes?


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## Jack of all trades (Nov 16, 2017)

In that other thread, censorship, even self censorship, was ridiculed and rejected with zero exceptions. That's why I find this so ironic. Some who were the most outspoken on the other thread are singing a different song here.


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## Sam (Nov 16, 2017)

It's cognisance of the fact that you're writing for young and pliable children who often look to characters in a way that adults rarely do: as role models. 

Nothing to do with censorship.


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## The Fantastical (Nov 16, 2017)

Roac said:


> I have read through a few of the YA books that my kids have and I would agree with some of the other comments that, for the most part, the MC should be more of a teen. I think the target audience just has a better ability to relate to a MC that is closer to their age, rather to a forty year old. I see that every day in the way my teens interact with their friends and with adults.
> 
> The other thing that comes to mind is the simplicity in the words used. The reading skills of these teens also might not be the same as an adult, resulting in the kids skipping over words or scenes that they don’t understand. Simple writing might be better.
> 
> ...



Excuse me but I was reading series like Pern, Duncton Wood and The Tamuli by the time I was 13 (while having some slight dyslexia) and such classics like Homer and Jane Austen in original English versions! So please don't think that age has anything to do with being able to read complex works because on many a forum I have seen people older than me looking up words like petticoat and bemoaning how books like LOTR are written in way to complex a language for them to read.


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## bdcharles (Nov 16, 2017)

Jack of all trades said:


> In that other thread, censorship, even self censorship, was ridiculed and rejected with zero exceptions. That's why I find this so ironic. Some who were the most outspoken on the other thread are singing a different song here.



Well, we're writers. What does it matter if we change our minds? #pantsyourlife


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## bdcharles (Nov 16, 2017)

moderan said:


> Franklin W. Dixon wrote about Fenton Hardy's sons and their bud Chet. I actually have those books on my kindle. They're still decent reads. Dated, but decent.



I was always a Willard Price man myself. Great reads, although I reread a few extracts of some of his books the other day. Oh boy, talk about being a product of their time!

(probably more for kids though, than YAs)


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## The Fantastical (Nov 16, 2017)

Sam said:


> It's cognisance of the fact that you're writing for young and pliable children who often look to characters in a way that adults rarely do: as role models.
> 
> Nothing to do with censorship.



I to remember the thread in question and to point out the obvious - young readers don't only read books aimed at their age group! One never knows who is reading their books... one can't say that I need to write like x for x audience but don't need to give the same consideration to y audience. It is hypocritical in the extream. 

You either don't give a crap or you do give a crap but you cannot half give a crap!


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## Bayview (Nov 16, 2017)

The Fantastical said:


> I to remember the thread in question and to point out the obvious - young readers don't only read books aimed at their age group! One never knows who is reading their books... one can't say that I need to write like x for x audience but don't need to give the same consideration to y audience. It is hypocritical in the extream.
> 
> You either don't give a crap or you do give a crap but you cannot half give a crap!



YA is a marketing category. People who buy books in that category will expect certain things.

Lots of teens read adult books; lots of adults read YA. But if a book is being marketed as YA, it should fit the expectations of the YA market. And one of those expectations is that the books be fairly easy reading. Not simplistic, but not at the higher end of the reading comprehension scale. It's not about reader _ability_ so much as reader _interest. _If someone picks up a YA novel, they're looking for a reasonably uncomplicated read.


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## Jack of all trades (Nov 16, 2017)

Bayview said:


> YA is a marketing category. People who buy books in that category will expect certain things.
> 
> Lots of teens read adult books; lots of adults read YA. But if a book is being marketed as YA, it should fit the expectations of the YA market. And one of those expectations is that the books be fairly easy reading. Not simplistic, but not at the higher end of the reading comprehension scale. It's not about reader _ability_ so much as reader _interest. _If someone picks up a YA novel, they're looking for a reasonably uncomplicated read.



I disagree. YA is intended for a particular age group. Otherwise there would not be a reference to age in the name of the category.


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## Jack of all trades (Nov 16, 2017)

bdcharles said:


> Well, we're writers. What does it matter if we change our minds? #pantsyourlife



First, I said I find it ironic, not that it mattered.

Second, now that you've brought it up, I wonder if it's a change of mind at all. I wonder if certain members simply enjoy arguing with certain other members. Or maybe they simply enjoy arguing.

Third, what's the point of the hashtag?


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## Jack of all trades (Nov 16, 2017)

Sam said:


> It's cognisance of the fact that you're writing for young and pliable children who often look to characters in a way that adults rarely do: as role models.
> 
> Nothing to do with censorship.



This is an argument in semantics, not in the practicalities of writing.


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## Bayview (Nov 16, 2017)

Jack of all trades said:


> I disagree. YA is intended for a particular age group. Otherwise there would not be a reference to age in the name of the category.



Originally, yes. That was who publishers thought would read YA. But they discovered that a lot of adults read it, too, when they're looking for something less complicated. 

This article suggests that 70% of YA books are bought by adults (https://www.thebalance.com/the-young-adult-book-market-2799954) - although that doesn't mean the adults are the ones reading the books.

This one suggests that 55% of YA _readers_ are adults (https://www.theguardian.com/childre...hy-are-so-many-adults-reading-ya-teen-fiction).

And these articles are supported by my experience in writing and publishing YA.


The name of the category is, again, a marketing tool, and it's inaccurate if used as a description of the readership. I mean, if we _did _accept that it was only teenagers reading YA, would we accept that the proper description of thirteen year old is "young adult"? No. Thirteen-year-olds aren't adult, young or otherwise. It's just a marketing term, not a descriptor.

Police Procedurals aren't only read by police, right?


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## bdcharles (Nov 16, 2017)

Jack of all trades said:


> First, I said I find it ironic, not that it mattered.
> 
> Second, now that you've brought it up, I wonder if it's a change of mind at all. I wonder if certain members simply enjoy arguing with certain other members. Or maybe they simply enjoy arguing.
> 
> Third, what's the point of the hashtag?



To your first - if it's of no import, maybe let it slide.

2 - possibly. It happens, people scrap, it's no big deal if no harm's done. I've done that in the past, though for me nowadays any kind of u-turn is usually because of a statement made in the heat of enthusiasm, that can be easily rationalised later. People get funny about such flip-floppery - but why? People change their minds all the time, because people change all the time. No-one's comprehension is infinite, and a person on day 1 is not the same as that person on day 2. I like that sort of adaptability in thinking. 

As for the # that was just to amuse me. I hear a word in my head, I write it down. In this instance what I heard was a hashtag promoting the "pantsing" approach (to both writing and life.) Silly, I know, but there you have it.


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## Jack of all trades (Nov 16, 2017)

Bayview said:


> Originally, yes. That was who publishers thought would read YA. But they discovered that a lot of adults read it, too, when they're looking for something less complicated.
> 
> This article suggests that 70% of YA books are bought by adults (https://www.thebalance.com/the-young-adult-book-market-2799954) - although that doesn't mean the adults are the ones reading the books.
> 
> ...



Maybe the adults aren't looking for an easier read, but a less violent read. Or one with less sex and cursing. A lower level of vocabulary is not the only reason. Maybe they still enjoy fantasies where good wins over evil. Maybe they just like good plots, regardless of the intended audience.

It seems to me there's a lot of assumptions made. And assumptions have a way of being wrong some of the time.


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## Jack of all trades (Nov 16, 2017)

bdcharles said:


> To your first - if it's of no import, maybe let it slide.
> 
> 2 - possibly. It happens, people scrap, it's no big deal if no harm's done. I've done that in the past, though for me nowadays any kind of u-turn is usually because of a statement made in the heat of enthusiasm, that can be easily rationalised later. People get funny about such flip-floppery - but why? People change their minds all the time, because people change all the time. No-one's comprehension is infinite, and a person on day 1 is not the same as that person on day 2. I like that sort of adaptability in thinking.
> 
> As for the # that was just to amuse me. I hear a word in my head, I write it down. In this instance what I heard was a hashtag promoting the "pantsing" approach (to both writing and life.) Silly, I know, but there you have it.



I made an observation. It's interesting who is making a big deal about a simple observation.


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## Terry D (Nov 16, 2017)

*Keep it on-topic folks.*


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## Terry D (Nov 16, 2017)

As has been said before, YA is a marketing segment, not a genre. Whenever you are writing for a particular marketing segment you need to conform to the conventions of that segment. If I was writing a Mexican cookbook I wouldn't include recipes for sushi or apple strudel.


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## moderan (Nov 16, 2017)

All genera are marketing segments. They do not exist in reality. Even my prized hard sf is a construct, a big dumb object, as it were. Not to be arguing for the sake of arguing or anything like that


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## Terry D (Nov 16, 2017)

moderan said:


> All genera are marketing segments. They do not exist in reality. Even my prized hard sf is a construct, a big dumb object, as it were. Not to be arguing for the sake of arguing or anything like that



That's a good point. All genres do target more or less specific markets. I just see YA as a bubble containing a defined segment of many different genres, subject to a set of guidelines which are, in one way broader than those of each genre contained by the bubble, while at the same time more restrictive than the 'adult' marketplace.


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## moderan (Nov 16, 2017)

It's also changed over the years. The Hardy Boys, as noted elsewhere, are for younger readers now, but that was YA in the day. I went from Encyclopedia Brown to Frank and Joe to Philip Marlowe.
Strangely enough, segments of the 'adult' marketplace are pitched at younger people than YA would nominally be pitched at -- SF used to be for 12-year-olds that were getting tired of comics. That changed about the time faux-medieval fantasy became the biggest market force thanks to del Rey books, nee Ballantine Books, and George Lucas was peddling his faux-sf oater, steeped in Kirby, Herbert, and the pulps.


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## Sam (Nov 16, 2017)

I'd agree, but with the proviso that the aforementioned Casefiles are _a lot _darker than any of the other books in The Hardy Boys series, so I don't know where they would be classed.


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## moderan (Nov 16, 2017)

No automats? Heh. I'll read them one day. Apportioning one's time is the difficult part. Ideas r easy.


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## Bayview (Nov 16, 2017)

Terry D said:


> That's a good point. All genres do target more or less specific markets. I just see YA as a bubble containing a defined segment of many different genres, subject to a set of guidelines which are, in one way broader than those of each genre contained by the bubble, while at the same time more restrictive than the 'adult' marketplace.



Yeah, I think this is how I'd distinguish YA from genres - genres are about subject matter, really, while the YA classification is more about writing style, characters, and/or theme. It's almost more like the "literary fiction" classification - Margaret Atwood writes literary SFF, literary historical, literary contemporary... she can hop subject matter, and bring readers with her, because she has that "literary" classification attached.

I think the same's true of YA.


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## Bayview (Nov 16, 2017)

Jack of all trades said:


> Maybe the adults aren't looking for an easier read, but a less violent read. Or one with less sex and cursing. A lower level of vocabulary is not the only reason. Maybe they still enjoy fantasies where good wins over evil. Maybe they just like good plots, regardless of the intended audience.
> 
> It seems to me there's a lot of assumptions made. And assumptions have a way of being wrong some of the time.



Except there's YA with lots of violence, YA with lots of cursing and sex, and adult fiction categories that don't have much violence, cursing, or sex.

So, yeah, there are assumptions being made, in so far as I don't think any of us have made an exhaustive study of the topic, but my assumptions, at least, are based on reading, writing, and studying YA for quite a while. What are your assumptions based on?


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## Kyle R (Nov 16, 2017)

25 Things You Should Know About Young Adult Fiction


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## moderan (Nov 16, 2017)

Teenagers, harumph!
:shame:


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## Plasticweld (Nov 16, 2017)

VonBradstein said:


> Serious question, I️ am generally curious. I’ve been sorely tempted to give writing a good YA or even a middle grade book a shot but I️ can’t get my head round it...
> 
> I️ am a man in his thirties with no kids in that age group or close to it. I️ have not been near a high school in over a decade and high school in the early 2000’s seems like quite a different place. I️ know no teenagers and have no reason to get to know any. It seems to me a lot of YA authors are from similar circumstances...
> 
> ...





After following this thread and not adding anything to it because I am not a YA writer. I will share something I do find amusing and the same time just a tad embarrassing. 

I met my wife when we were 16, that was more than 48 years ago.  We both kept journals and we both still have them, along with all the letters we ever wrote back and forth to each other.  The year before we got married, I had moved away and worked in a logging camp in northern Maine and we saw each other every two weeks. 

We were not short on drama and we were not short on passion.  We worried about things back then that we wouldn't break a sweat over when we were in our twenties.  Every emotion was amplified times 3.  The hopes the dreams were all very exciting and at the same time we had real concerns and no real idea of how things were going to work out.  We talked about sex, talked about faith and politics. Everything was new to us and it is evident by how we talked about it.  What is kind of cool is to see that we dealt with the issues; knowing that we were planning on being married and that we  had to have an understanding of each other, even at that age.

The young are at the beginning of a journey which no one can foresee. I had no idea of some of the problems that would one-day side track or destroy the lives of many of our friends back then. The un-expected happened many times and we wrote about it.  It is not hard to see how adults would find interest in that adventure. 

You don’t have to sneak into the prom only remember the past.  

I can't be the only old guy or gal with a journal or diary, not the only one with a box full of old love letters that are now yellow with age.

I can go back and read about my youth… and you know what? It is really interesting.   Re-reading my old letters makes the task of writing for young adults seem easy now. I had just forgotten so much how I viewed things. 

As a side note,  one curious thing I found after visiting my past is that I have changed very little in the last 40 some years.  Thanks VonBradstein for sending me down memory lane.


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## EmmaSohan (Nov 16, 2017)

Nice essay. Thanks Kyle.

I would add, I like to write about emotional growth. So a high school teen is about perfect. He didn't mention that reason. Adults still change, but it's slower and not as much.

I like books with emotions. The age isn't as important. I wish that could be a genre, although I have been told here that it's "character books". That's reasonable.

C_ode Name Verity_ is a fantastic book.


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