# Incest in Science Fiction



## robephiles (Sep 6, 2012)

I am writing a science fiction novel, my second novel overall, and am almost finished but there is some content in the novel that I am concerned about.  The heroine of my novel has an incestuous relationship with her half-brother.  I treat it rather matter-of-fact, not salacious or scandalously, and it is linked to the the thematic and plot elements of the story so much that it is impossible to remove it from the material.  I have considered trying to remove this from the book, but the entire story falls apart without it.  What I am concerned about is that this element may make most people unable to relate to the protagonist.  

When I tell most people about the basic premise of my novel they usually sound interested but the mention of incest tends to turn them off of the story immediately in some cases.  Once again, I can't take it out at this point, and I think it is a very good novel, much better than my first, which was never published.  I have read a number of popular literary novels that have had protagonists in incestuous relationships, John Irving's The Hotel New Hampshire and Vladimir Nabokov's Ada spring to mind, but I can't recall a genre novel where the main character has such a relationship.  

The closest I can come to is V.C. Andrews' Flowers in the Attic, a Gothic thriller, and was very popular despite containing this element.  So what I am asking is, as a reader would this make a book harder for you to get into?  Of course it would matter how well it was written, but I find it odd that so many people don't have this problem with a protagonist who kills or is violent, but they have a block with this subject matter.  I know there are a lot of popular novels that have characters in incestuous relationships but they tend to be minor characters (I can name at least a dozen sci-fi novels that address incest but it is never the main character)  and often it is a character that is at least morally questionable, if not outright vile or villainous.


----------



## Potty (Sep 6, 2012)

Lets face it... no one is going to say "Oh oh! I love incest! Let me have a read!" but I think that if the book is well written... you can touch on any taboo. Look at "Lolita".


----------



## robephiles (Sep 6, 2012)

Yes, if it was a mainstream novel I would probably not worry about it, but the fact that it is science fiction worries me.  The conventional wisdom is that sci-fi readers are more conservative.  When I first got the idea for the novel some years ago, my ex got upset about the fact that I was outlining a story involving incest.  Granted, she was an especially conservative person but there is really no way to gauge how much such content will hurt (or help) the marketability of a novel because people just would rather not talk about it, even if the taboo element does draw them in.


----------



## Kyle R (Sep 6, 2012)

Ultimately I think it depends on how you handle it. If the protagonist is celebrating their incestual love, then it will probably turn some conservative readers off.

But if the incest used as a springboard for emotional conflict (_I care for him but we shouldn't be doing this. Sometimes I wish we weren't related. Why does everything have to be so difficult? Why am I not allowed to be with the person I love?_), then you have fertile territory to harvest. 

The whole "conflicted feelings of love and taboo" is what has made many authors into best-sellers.


----------



## Cran (Sep 6, 2012)

Social mores, and what publishers or readers will accept, tend to ebb and flow between generations - taboos rise and fall. 

If you are asking whether incest has turned up in science fiction or speculative fiction, the answer is yes. 
Blatantly in Michael Morcock's work*; more subtly in works from other Golden and post-Golden era writers**.

* in _The Shores of Death_, the main character's father was also his grandfather. 

** Robert Heinlein and Ursula Le Guin among them.


----------



## robephiles (Sep 6, 2012)

Yes, and Heinlein addressed incest as well but I have never read a science fiction novel where the main character, the one you are supposed to sympathize with, is in an incestuous relationship.  Normally, science fiction addresses it in a sociological context not a psychological one, so this distances the reader from it a bit.   

But overall I feel a little less worried about the book overall.


----------



## Whisper (Sep 6, 2012)

Yep, I'm pretty sure this is going to be a problem.

 People are pretty willing to accept certain things (look at 50 Shades of Grey) but incest usually isn't one of them. I guess it will also depend on the age of the characters. People might be willing to accept it more if you turn him into a step-brother instead of a half brother. Without knowing the concept of the story and why they have to have this type of relationship I don't think anyone can give you a real answer here as people are willing to accept anything if done for the right reasons. If they are having an incestious relationship to keep their race from dying out (yeah), but if they are having sex because they love each other (what brother and sister usually doesn't) then I'll say they won't. Motive is the key. Prime example: Dexter. Seriel killer, yet people like him. Why? Motive. Let him do that to random people on the street, not so much.


----------



## j.w.olson (Sep 6, 2012)

Here's my suggestion:  Keep the incest. Do everything you can to make the reader relate to the MC on everything EXCEPT this issue. I think that'll work fine, then. If it's an unlikable character to start with, then yeah, that's a problem.


----------



## Nemesis (Sep 6, 2012)

As much as people recoil from taboo subjects, they are in fact very drawn to them. It sells. So long as it isn't glorifying in it and I'd say if this is your MC's achilles heel then by all means keep it. Don't listen to the narrow minded people telling you it's too taboo, because it isn't.


----------



## Whisper (Sep 6, 2012)

Noxicity said:


> As much as people recoil from taboo subjects, they are in fact very drawn to them. It sells. So long as it isn't glorifying in it and I'd say if this is your MC's achilles heel then by all means keep it. Don't listen to the narrow minded people telling you it's too taboo, because it isn't.




So, how is giving an opinion narrow minded? The person asked for an opinion and it was given in sincerity. The fact that you dismiss those arguments is in itself narrow minded. In addition, the fact that they even asked shows that even they are concerned about the story. If they weren’t they wouldn’t have asked. What if this person had said their MC was a pedophile?  Would it then be narrow-minded to say people would have a problem with it? I’m sorry, I know I’m new to the forums here but I thought this was a discussion forum and not a forum for insulting opinions freely asked and freely given. In order for a person to make an informed decision they must have multiple points of view even the ones you don’t agree with.


----------



## Tigerbunny (Sep 6, 2012)

Agree with Potty above.  If a story is well written...it can be about anything.  I wouldn't worry about it.  I could write a book about split-pea soup and someone...somewhere...is going to hate me for it.


----------



## Nemesis (Sep 6, 2012)

Wow wasn't even referring to you Whisper, I only read a few of the posts reply to his and hadn't read yours. A little sensative much?

Edit: I have also read a book where the MC was a hitman who only like young girls. While not the most pleasant of subjects, it still wasn't taboo and I wouldn't have wanted them to change it. No subject is too taboo, it is all in how you approach it.


----------



## Whisper (Sep 6, 2012)

Noxicity said:


> Wow wasn't even referring to you Whisper, I only read a few of the posts reply to his and hadn't read yours.



*Begins banging head on table*



Noxicity said:


> A little sensative much?



Sigh, yes. I've been reading too much Yahoo comments, I now think everyone is out to get me.

It followed mine so I naturally assumed...oh never mind, I'll be in the corner.


----------



## Nemesis (Sep 6, 2012)

Lol it happens, don't worry ^^


----------



## Bloggsworth (Sep 6, 2012)

It's fiction. I find it an amazing idea that Sci-Fi readers are prepared to read quite happily about worlds and planetary systems being reduced to rubble with the loss of billions of lives, but would throw their hands up in horror at a little bit of incest - But then, George Bush Jr. did get voted in twice and Tony Blair 3 times - But the death and destruction they caused is real and continuing.


----------



## Tigerbunny (Sep 6, 2012)

Exactly.


----------



## Eluixa (Sep 6, 2012)

I think many people are curious and will read in private, things they would never discuss openly for fear of rejection. That is what authors are good at, bringing you stories you can relate to, or if not, at least start cutting your teeth on, that you can learn from. I would read a story with incest, in fact I prefer main characters to have issues. If what I have to learn from them whilst reading is to be upstanding according to the author's view on goodness, screw it.
Have baggage, will share.


----------



## Whisper (Sep 6, 2012)

The political commentary aside, take your basic sentence:




Bloggsworth said:


> I find it an amazing idea that Sci-Fi readers are prepared to read quite happily about worlds and planetary systems being reduced to rubble with the loss of billions of lives, but would throw their hands up in horror at a little bit of incest.



Now, replace incest with:
1. Pedophilia
2. Rape
3. Cannibalism
4. Murder
5. Rape and Murder
6. Priest molesting a child

I don’t want to pigeon hole the subject and say it can’t be done because it can. In Steven R. Donaldson’s book “Lord Foul’s Bane” the main character rapes a young woman, but people were willing to overlook this because the MC thought he was having a dream. Taboo subjects like incest/rape/cannibalism can be done, but the writer has to go into this knowing that there are going to be people that will have a problem with it and it will affect his marketability if that is what he is aiming for. It just depends on how it’s presented and the reason behind it. People want to go into a book wanting to like and relate to the MC. His/her strengths their strengths his/her flaws become their flaws. Incest might be too much for them to handle.

Let me reiterate, I’m not saying it cannot be done, but I am saying the majority of the people will have a problem with it unless there is a good reason behind it. I can see several scenarios where it might be accepted within a story: Kings/Queens intermarriage or maybe they live on a world where incest is acceptable, etc. However, if its incest for the sake of incest I don’t see it being widely acceptable to the majority of readers.


----------



## Nemesis (Sep 6, 2012)

I still don't have a problem with any of those. =P It's just fiction.


----------



## Terry D (Sep 6, 2012)

If the book won't work without it then there is no question.  What are you going to do, burn the manuscript?  Incest has a long history in literature going back to _Oedipus Rex_.


----------



## Bloggsworth (Sep 6, 2012)

Whisper said:


> The political commentary aside, take your basic sentence:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tom Cruise, and thousands of others, has trouble believing that aliens _didn't _invade the earth several millennia ago; should I adjust my writing to take account of this? Of course not, if they don't like it, they can take Dorothy Parker's advice, and toss it aside with great force - Hopefully, after they've paid for it...


----------



## Whisper (Sep 6, 2012)

Bloggsworth said:


> Tom Cruise, and thousands of others, has trouble believing that aliens _didn't _invade the earth several millennia ago; should I adjust my writing to take account of this? Of course not, if they don't like it, they can take Dorothy Parker's advice, and toss it aside with great force - Hopefully, after they've paid for it...



There is a big difference between incest/rape/etc and alien invasions.

The original posters basic question was would people be able to relate to a protagonist that was involved in an incestuous relationship with her half brother. Maybe here in the closed area of a Writers Forum, but in the outside world it would be naïve to think otherwise. Still, 
I think Terry said it best, if the book won't work without it, what are you going to do, burn it? You have to go with what you have and hope people with accept it for what it is. Besides, with self-publishing what people (especially publishers) will and will not accept is really no longer relevant. There will be a market for it – otherwise porn sites would no longer exist.

I guess at this point no use in beating the dead horse. He asked for advice and it's been given by a host of people. He's free to do with it what he will.


----------



## patskywriter (Sep 6, 2012)

Most of us probably haven't had the opportunity to observe people as they read our work. We don't really know how they'll react and should know from the get-go that not everyone will be able to deal with what we're writing.

If I were to encounter an incest scene in a book, I'd probably frown. If the book was good up to that point, I'd probably continue reading. But I can imagine my childhood friend "Jane" stopping right there and slamming the book shut. She's an incest survivor who's still suffering from the experience. I doubt if she'd welcome any reminder of those times. 

If you know each member of your audience, you can tailor your book accordingly. But since you probably don't, I'd say that you should go forward and write the best story you possibly can. Don't worry about the detractors. If you do a good enough job, you'll have a sizable following and an audience that will follow you just about anywhere.


----------



## alanmt (Sep 6, 2012)

I think that this sort of plot point might be more palatable in science fiction or fantasy, actually.  It depends on the circumstances, of course.  If the book is seen as advocating incest, that is not good. If it is a cultural thing treated neutrally or giving rise to conflict when someone bucks it, then it makes the book more interesting.  If it is a function of circumstance or naivete (Blue Lagoon, Flowers in the Attic) it may be seen as a tragedy not a sin, and not detract from the reader's connection with the characters.

In my reading of historical accounts of the Ptolemaic dynasty of Egypt, wherein brothers and sisters commonly were the ruling couple, the incest didn't put me off - it was actual and historical, in that case.  I think that readers tend to put speculative fiction in the same way they read history: it is a different time and place, and its okay to explore different mores.


----------



## Jon M (Sep 6, 2012)

Bloggsworth said:


> It's fiction. I find it an amazing idea that Sci-Fi readers are prepared to read quite happily about worlds and planetary systems being reduced to rubble with the loss of billions of lives, but would throw their hands up in horror at a little bit of incest - But then, George Bush Jr. did get voted in twice and Tony Blair 3 times - But the death and destruction they caused is real and continuing.


Anything is easier to read about when it is presented generally, abstractly.

From Orwell, _Politics and the English Language_: 

In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible.    Things like the continuance of British rule in India, the Russian purges and    deportations, the dropping of the atom bombs on Japan, can indeed be defended,    but only by arguments which are too brutal for most people to face, and which    do not square with the professed aims of the political parties. Thus political    language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy    vagueness. Defenseless villages are bombarded from the air, the inhabitants    driven out into the countryside, the cattle machine-gunned, the huts set on    fire with incendiary bullets: this is called _pacification_. Millions of    peasants are robbed of their farms and sent trudging along the roads with no    more than they can carry: this is called _transfer of population_ or _rectification    of frontiers_. People are imprisoned for years without trial, or shot in    the back of the neck or sent to die of scurvy in Arctic lumber camps: this is    called _elimination of unreliable elements_. Such phraseology is needed    if one wants to name things without calling up mental pictures of them.​


----------



## Bloggsworth (Sep 6, 2012)

Whisper said:


> There is a big difference between incest/rape/etc and alien invasions.
> 
> The original posters basic question was would people be able to relate to a protagonist that was involved in an incestuous relationship with her half brother. Maybe here in the closed area of a Writers Forum, but in the outside world it would be naïve to think otherwise. Still,
> I think Terry said it best, if the book won't work without it, what are you going to do, burn it? You have to go with what you have and hope people with accept it for what it is. Besides, with self-publishing what people (especially publishers) will and will not accept is really no longer relevant. There will be a market for it – otherwise porn sites would no longer exist.
> ...



The basic answer is that some will, some won't, but then that is true of all books isn't it? So writing for a reader who may never even pick the book up let alone read it, is pointless, not to mention a betrayal of the author's talent. Write the book you need to write, publish and be damned - As long as the sexual content is not gratuitous, I can see no reason to alter a word. If the author merely wishes to be loved by everyone; which I sincerely doubt; then I think excision or writing a different book the only answers. Authors should be true to themselves or they are being true to nobody. Worrying about whether someone who has been sexually assaulted might pick up the book is madness, however traumatised they were by the episode. Should all the Raffles books be destroyed because someone who once had their jewellery stolen might be upset? Should The Poseidon Adventure be removed from the canon because it might upset the survivors of a shipwreck? You can't proceed on that basis, it would be like getting your books written by a focus group...


----------



## robephiles (Sep 6, 2012)

Well, I think the context matters a lot.  In the case of my story the two siblings are adults when they first meet.  The main character does not know that he is her half brother when they meet but he knows that she is his half sister.  Both characters feel guilt but they are fully aware that they are related by the time they enter into a sexual relationship.  I don't want to overdo the guilt with the characters and I don't want to punish them for their actions either.  What they do is victimless, so I don't see what the point would be to make a statement about how horrible it is.  

A lot of people associate incest with child abuse and that is the case in a good number of instances of incest.  A lot of adults who enter into those types of relationships were abused as children, but it is also common for relatives who meet each other for the first time as adults to be attracted to each other.  Sexual abuse is not part of my story, so I am approaching it with less condemnation then I would if the story included a relationship with a minor or a parent with a child.  In some ways I think this makes the story a little less ugly but on the other hand some people might be less inclined to judge a character who was sexually abused because they would feel it was not her fault.  

It was a good suggestion to try to soften it by making it an affair with her step-brother but it is important to the plot that the characters be genetically related.  (This has to do with the science fiction elements.)  There also is some time travel and alternate realities in the story.  There are points where the heroine gets to actually see what life might have been like had she grown up with her brother and they had a normal relationship.    I'm hoping that this will make the reader examine her actions more closely and relate the actions to the characters to ideas of free will and other philosophical ideas.


----------



## TealBlizzard (Sep 10, 2012)

IF I remember clearly, there was a bit of incest in Star Wars. You could tell that there was a bit more than sister-brother relationship going on there, and it usually took me some time to remember that Luke and Leia (however you spell it) were brother and sister! As someone said earlier, as long as the characters are likeable and well thought out, it should not be a big problem. Best wishes!


----------



## dale (Sep 10, 2012)

robephiles said:


> Yes, and Heinlein addressed incest as well but I have never read a science fiction novel where the main character, the one you are supposed to sympathize with, is in an incestuous relationship.  Normally, science fiction addresses it in a sociological context not a psychological one, so this distances the reader from it a bit.
> 
> But overall I feel a little less worried about the book overall.



yeah. "to sail beyond the sunset". i read it and it completely turned me off the entire book.
i remember being sick to my stomach when the mother on looks with adoration and pride at her
husband taking their daughter's virginity. absolutely disgusted me.


----------



## VampFact (Sep 13, 2012)

I know it's not really sci-fi, but look at George R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series. Deals with multiple incestuous relationships that are important to the story and it has a huge fan base. Everything you could possibly write will offend someone. I'm not saying "be deliberately outrageous", but if it fits, just go with it. /thumbs up


----------

