# writing technique (sentences and words)



## EmmaSohan (May 6, 2018)

The scene is this: Her son is dead, yet she thinks she sees him on the street. She chases after him, grabs him from behind, the woman with the boy says "What the feel do you think you're doing? Get your hands off my son!" And this follows soon after:



> "That's my son, that's Dylan, he's my . . ." My words trail off as the realization hits me. He's not my son.





> "That's my son, that's Dylan, he's my . . . "
> He's not my son.



Is one better than the other? If so, why? Same problem for

A second man followed, the pursuit cautious, his intent violent.

A second man followed, his pursuit cautious, his intent violent.

I have strong opinions, but I don't know how much it is just my preferences.


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## Ralph Rotten (May 6, 2018)

Best:
"That's my son, that's Dylan, he's my . . ." My words trail off as the realization hits me. He's not my son.
A second man followed, his pursuit cautious, his intent violent.


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## Bayview (May 7, 2018)

I want _something_ between the "he's my son" and the "he's not my son" - maybe not as much as in the first example, but something. Possibly the details/evidence that makes her realize he's not?

And the second option for the "and a second man" - it sets up the parallelism nicely.


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## Phil Istine (May 7, 2018)

_That's my son, that's Dylan, he's my . . .
My words trail off as the realization hits me. He's not my son.

                     A second man followed, his pursuit cautious, his intent violent._

I've stated my preference above.
Giving reasons isn't so easy.  Normally, I might prefer to keep words to a minimum and make those used as punchy as possible.  However, in the first example about the realisation, I feel the additional words are needed to mirror the effect of the words trailing off. Indeed, to add to this effect, maybe a different verb choice could be in order because "trailing off" and "hits" seem as though they are working against each other.
Maybe even trail the sentence a little longer for added effect:

"_That's my son, that's Dylan, he's my . . .
My words trail off as the reality dawns that he's not my son.
_
This one may be a little clumsy.

Or:_That's my son, that's Dylan, he's my . . .
__My words trail off as reality dawns; he's not my son.

_Perhaps this might be a little cleaner.  You have the effect of trailing, with a little sharp bit at the end produced by substituting a semi-colon for a word.  I think this last one would be my preference even though it isn't one of your proffered choices (sorry!)_.
_
As for: "_A second man followed, his pursuit cautious, his intent violent._"
I think this option has to be far better than the other because repeating "his" lends more strength to the sentence.

Please note that without seeing these sentences within the context of the surrounding words, it's more difficult to make a definitive assessment - so I have to go with what feels right intuitively.


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## Terry D (May 7, 2018)

In first person you are supposed to be inside the head of the character, and no one actually ever thinks, 'the realization hits me'. That's telling, not showing.

*"That's my son, that's Dylan. He's my..." Then he turns and it's not Dylan's face looking up at me. Not Dylan's eyes. It's not my son.
*
As for the following man; both are also kind of 'telly'. Is this also from a first person story? If so, the narrator can't know what the man's intent is. You can tell the reader the guy was following, but you should show him being cautious, furtive, casual. The observing character can _suspect_ a violent intent, can intuit it, but only an omniscient third narrator can _know_ it. The second version reads quite nicely. I like the flow of it. But it doesn't do its job very well. That's one of those 'darlings' we are so often advised to kill.


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## Bayview (May 7, 2018)

Should be noted: these aren't from the same work. The second (the man following with intent) is from _The Bourne Identity_, which is in third person, so there's no real POV issue. The first is from some other book I've never heard of.

Emma, I think it's a great idea to analyze the work of successful writers, but I'm not sure you should be posting quotes without attribution. I imagine you were trying to make the post seem unbiased and didn't want us defaulting to saying that whatever the published author did was right, but it starts to feel like a bit of a "gotcha", aimed either at the other authors or at us. Maybe you could preface future examples with a comment that they're from published works and you'll reveal the sources at the end?

Back to the topic - neither example jumped out to me as problematic when I read them in context, and I think that may be something we miss when we get too line-by-line analytical of our work. If the story is good, if the flow is there, if I care about the characters or am caught up in what's happening? I probably won't notice the details of the writing. I don't think I'm unique in that.

(This isn't an official mod request - I don't know if there's an official policy on this! If you want, I can ask the others what they think.)


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## Terry D (May 7, 2018)

Bayview said:


> Should be noted: these aren't from the same work. The second (the man following with intent) is from _The Bourne Identity_, which is in third person, so there's no real POV issue. The first is from some other book I've never heard of.
> 
> Emma, I think it's a great idea to analyze the work of successful writers, but I'm not sure you should be posting quotes without attribution. I imagine you were trying to make the post seem unbiased and didn't want us defaulting to saying that whatever the published author did was right, but it starts to feel like a bit of a "gotcha", aimed either at the other authors or at us. Maybe you could preface future examples with a comment that they're from published works and you'll reveal the sources at the end?
> 
> ...



Thanks, Bayview. The only policy that would be in play here is that which covers plagiarism (not that a single sentence or two would trigger that policy), but you are right, a heads up would be courteous.


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## Patrick (May 7, 2018)

Distinction without a difference. All mediocre/poor writing.


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## Bayview (May 7, 2018)

Patrick said:


> Distinction without a difference. All mediocre/poor writing.



So then we get to the question of how it sells so well. What are readers finding in Ludlum's "mediocre/poor writing" that has made so many of them into huge fans?


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## Terry D (May 7, 2018)

Bayview said:


> So then we get to the question of how it sells so well. What are readers finding in Ludlum's "mediocre/poor writing" that has made so many of them into huge fans?



Taken out of context, a single sentence can be criticized easily. That doesn't make it bad writing. I commented that the Ludlum sentence struck me as being more show than tell, but taken in the context of its paragraph, it might fit perfectly -- and with Ludlum's reputation as a fine writer of thrillers, I'd be willing to bet such is the case.


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## Patrick (May 7, 2018)

Bayview said:


> So then we get to the question of how it sells so well. What are readers finding in Ludlum's "mediocre/poor writing" that has made so many of them into huge fans?



You've assumed I think the entirety of his writing is poor/banal/mediocre. Jeffrey Archer is very popular, but I don't think he writes very well at the level of the sentence. I assume those who enjoy his writing, and I can only assume because I've never been able to read anything of his in entirety, do so because they find the thrust of the narrative compelling. I am clearly not one, but not everybody likes the same things as me. I like Edward St Aubyn. I like Hilary Mantel. I like lots of contemporary writers, now I think about it. I have enjoyed some of Ian McEwan's work, while I've never particularly liked Martin Amis or Will Self. They could all be considered writers of literary fiction and I would refer to each one as having exceptional ability, regardless of my own tastes. But I would never take a sentence in isolation from its context and cotext to traduce the writer or his/her style. Even if the sentence really were rubbish, I would not conclude from that one sentence alone that a writer's ability/style was somehow unfit for purpose.

The sentences in the op, I am quite certain, are not some of the best examples that could be taken from the books they're found in. Because the novel is a long wavelength, it will contain many sentences that are not not much above mediocrity. One of the few books that cannot be accused of this is Joyce's Uysses, and I will both happily tell you I think it is a work of genius, and that it is also absolutely exhausting. Please don't mistake my comments for wholesale dismissal of authors. I am only considering what I am being asked to consider within the context of the op. My point is that it doesn't really matter which example you choose here, because no one example is much better than the other. I suppose the only thing I would say is that you should avoid verbiage in the simple sentences that very few people will remember when they've turned the final page of the book. It's OK for there to be sentences like that in your novel, by the way. It's not an attack on an entire genre or readership because I call a sentence mediocre/poor. The real question is, why are we faffing around with distinctions without a difference?


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## EmmaSohan (May 7, 2018)

Bayview said:


> Back to the topic - neither example jumped out to me as problematic when I read them in context, and I think that may be something we miss when we get too line-by-line analytical of our work. If the story is good, if the flow is there, if I care about the characters or am caught up in what's happening? I probably won't notice the details of the writing. I don't think I'm unique in that.



I'm thrilled with the responses. The first book (How I Lost You, Blackhurst) is a good story, as in great premise, interesting character descriptions, and promising synopsis of plot. But it seemed to be underperforming -- the scenes were good when I replayed them in my mind, but they weren't as good when I read them. If true, that's a problem to be solved at the level of sentences and words, right?

For me, the longer version tells the story better But what I like most about the scene is the moment where she realizes it's not her son. The horror, the shame, the disappointment. "the realization hits me" kind of gives away the punch line. "My words trail off" is mostly redundant and puts more words between her realization (when she stops talking) and when the reader is told what she realized.

So the longer version, the author's version, is more of a "slow reveal." I want a punch.


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## Albo Ari (May 7, 2018)

EmmaSohan said:


> The scene is this: Her son is dead, yet she thinks she sees him on the street. She chases after him, grabs him from behind, the woman with the boy says "What the feel do you think you're doing? Get your hands off my son!" And this follows soon after:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"That's my son, that's Dylan, he's my . . . "
He's not my son.

A second man followed, the pursuit cautious, his intent violent.
Are my pick


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## Bayview (May 7, 2018)

EmmaSohan said:


> I'm thrilled with the responses. The first book (How I Lost You, Blackhurst) is a good story, as in great premise, interesting character descriptions, and promising synopsis of plot. But it seemed to be underperforming -- the scenes were good when I replayed them in my mind, but they weren't as good when I read them. If true, that's a problem to be solved at the level of sentences and words, right?
> 
> For me, the longer version tells the story better But what I like most about the scene is the moment where she realizes it's not her son. The horror, the shame, the disappointment. "the realization hits me" kind of gives away the punch line. "My words trail off" is mostly redundant and puts more words between her realization (when she stops talking) and when the reader is told what she realized.
> 
> So the longer version, the author's version, is more of a "slow reveal." I want a punch.



Do you have an example of a scene from a published book that "punches" the way you want? One that's just as good on page as it is in your mind?


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## EmmaSohan (May 7, 2018)

Bayview said:


> Do you have an example of a scene from a published book that "punches" the way you want? One that's just as good on page as it is in your mind?



Great question. I will look for punch. I don't know about punch, but I think the following overperforms -- it does better when I read it than when I try to replay it from memory.

What they're saying," she pressed on, "is that last night Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow. He went to find the Potters. The rumor is that Lily and James Potter are -- are -- that they're _dead_.
Dumbledore bowed his head. Professor McGonagall gasped.
"Lily and James . . . I can't believe it . . . I didn't want to believe it. . . Oh, Albus . . ."
Dumbledore reached out and patted her on the shoulder. "I know . . . I know. . ." he said heavily.
Professor McGonagall's voice trembled as she went on. "That's not all. They're saying he tried to kill the Potters' son, Harry. But -- he couldn't."

And I'm guessing almost everything from _The Fault in Our Stars_ overperforms. She is excited about watching a movie with a cute guy she just met, then he puts a cigarette in his mouth.

"But of course there is always a _harmartia _and yours is that oh, my God, even though you HAD FREAKING CANCER you give money to a company in exchange for the chance to acquire YET MORE CANCER. Oh, my God. Let me just assure you that not being able to breathe? SUCKS. Totally disappointing. _Totally_."


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## EmmaSohan (May 7, 2018)

As good as my replay:



> He nodded and squeezed her hand once more. Then disentangled his fingers from her to pick up the wine glass and --
> "Take me to bed."
> --swallowed it down the wrong pipe.
> (Written in Fire, Sakey)




Added: Contrasted to:
She then said the one thing he never expected to hear: "Take me to bed."
He was so surprised, he swallowed his wine down the wrong pipe.


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## Bayview (May 7, 2018)

I think these are definitely going to be matters of personal taste, then. Honestly, your examples feel _over_written, to my taste - all the damn ellipses in the Harry Potter bit, the mix of caps and italics in the F_ault_ bit, and then I actually had trouble understanding what was going on in the last piece. (I mean, grammatically, he swallowed the wine _glass_, not the wine...) It was probably clearer in context, but out of context? It does nothing for me.

This is one of the frustrating (and wonderful) things about creative writing. There are so many different styles, so many different tastes...


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## Patrick (May 7, 2018)

Bayview said:


> I think these are definitely going to be matters of personal taste, then. Honestly, your examples feel _over_written, to my taste - all the damn ellipses in the Harry Potter bit, the mix of caps and italics in the F_ault_ bit, and then I actually had trouble understanding what was going on in the last piece. (I mean, grammatically, he swallowed the wine _glass_, not the wine...) It was probably clearer in context, but out of context? It does nothing for me.



Yep. The abundant hyphens/dashes and ellipses make for very melodramatic reading. And if I read that dialogue in fault in our stars, I'd frisbee the book into the bin while simpering out a, "Totally."


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## Jack of all trades (May 7, 2018)

Using Phil's rewrite : 
"That's my son, that's Dylan, he's my . . ." My words trail off as the realization hits me. He's not my son. 

I'd add : 
"Sorry. My mistake." Or "I thought..." Or something like that.


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## Jack of all trades (May 7, 2018)

Bayview said:


> I think these are definitely going to be matters of personal taste, then. Honestly, your examples feel _over_written, to my taste - all the damn ellipses in the Harry Potter bit, the mix of caps and italics in the F_ault_ bit, and then I actually had trouble understanding what was going on in the last piece. (I mean, grammatically, he swallowed the wine _glass_, not the wine...) It was probably clearer in context, but out of context? It does nothing for me.
> 
> This is one of the frustrating (and wonderful) things about creative writing. There are so many different styles, so many different tastes...



If you don't like the ellipses, how would you write that Potter scene? Just curious.


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## Kyle R (May 7, 2018)

EmmaSohan said:


> The scene is this: Her son is dead, yet she thinks she sees him on the street. She chases after him, grabs him from behind, the woman with the boy says "What the feel do you think you're doing? Get your hands off my son!" And this follows soon after:
> "That's my son, that's Dylan, he's my . . ." My words trail off as the realization hits me. He's not my son.
> ​"That's my son, that's Dylan, he's my . . . "
> He's not my son.​
> Is one better than the other? If so, why?



It seems like quite a heavy moment, so I'd probably write it a bit heavier than either option, with something like:

"That's my son, that's Dylan, he's my—" But the boy looks up at me, his eyes wide and unblinking, his face taut with fright, and nothing about him looks familiar. The freckles don't match. The nose is too narrow. The lips are missing that funny, lopsided quirk. This boy—he's not my son. He's just someone else's kid, and here I am, grabbing at him like a lunatic.

Oh, God. Is this how far I've fallen?​
Rather than simply "the realization hits me", or rather than simply jumping to the conclusion, I'd prefer to move the reader _through_ the protagonist's realization as it happens. It's a slower burn, but I think those work well in these kinds of moments. :encouragement:


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## bdcharles (May 8, 2018)

EmmaSohan said:


> The scene is this: Her son is dead, yet she thinks she sees him on the street. She chases after him, grabs him from behind, the woman with the boy says "What the feel do you think you're doing? Get your hands off my son!" And this follows soon after:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



For the first one, I prefer the first choice. Why? Because it has more detail, more showing of the world and character. But even then it is far from perfect. Phrases like "The realization hits me" are very cliched and telling. The author could benefit from portraying that reaction more viscerally. This is at best a step in the right direction (assuming a certain context). As for the second choice, it is so short and nothingy that unless the surrounding text showcases a killer voice in which this can easily hide, then it's difficult to see it as anything as rushed, lazy writing.

In the second example, it really is much of a muchness, and what the surrounding voice is like, and what the writer wants to do. In the first example (the/his), I like that because it varies the feel and the beat of the sentence and makes it somehow "cooler". But in the second, (his/his), it keeps a steady, fast pace, which, while less textually interesting, may be what that story demands. It's hard to say without any context.


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## Bayview (May 8, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> If you don't like the ellipses, how would you write that Potter scene? Just curious.



I don't actually know the characters well enough to try to rewrite. And I usually write in close third, so I'd probably be deep in one character's POV and handle it all from there.

Also - I don't have a problem with JK Rowling's writing! I'm not quite arrogant enough to think I can do better than her! I was commenting more as a reader, not a writer. I read the first Harry Potter book and then quit because it wasn't to my taste, but obviously it's something that's been exactly to the taste of millions upon millions of readers.

(Although, in the excerpt... who the hell is talking at the start? It seems like there must be a third person in the scene, since McGonnigal gasps as if she's surprised by the news? But then at the bottom she seems to have more information on the news, so... was she reading all along? But she didn't gasp until Dumbledore gripped her shoulder?)


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## Jack of all trades (May 8, 2018)

Bayview said:


> I don't actually know the characters well enough to try to rewrite. And I usually write in close third, so I'd probably be deep in one character's POV and handle it all from there.
> 
> Also - I don't have a problem with JK Rowling's writing! I'm not quite arrogant enough to think I can do better than her! I was commenting more as a reader, not a writer. I read the first Harry Potter book and then quit because it wasn't to my taste, but obviously it's something that's been exactly to the taste of millions upon millions of readers.
> 
> (Although, in the excerpt... who the hell is talking at the start? It seems like there must be a third person in the scene, since McGonnigal gasps as if she's surprised by the news? But then at the bottom she seems to have more information on the news, so... was she reading all along? But she didn't gasp until Dumbledore gripped her shoulder?)



Oh, why not rewrite J.K.Rowling? Writing an outline for the seventh HP book, which I seriously disliked by comparison to the first, is what started me seriously writing. She a person. She puts her pants on one leg at a time, just like the rest of us.

Sure. I spend time trying to understand the HP phenomenon, but I don't hold Rowling up as better than anyone. But that's neither here nor there. If you don't want to try to demonstrate how the scene can be done without ellipses, so be it. 

As for your confusion, it might help you understand the excerpt if a paragraph or two was added to the beginning.



> It seemed that Professor McGonagall had reached the point she was most anxious to discuss, the real reason she had been waiting on a cold, hard wall all day, for neither as a cat nor as a woman had she fixed Dumbledore with such a piercing stare as she did now. It was plain that whatever "everyone" was saying, she was not going to believe it until Dumbledore told her it was true. Dumbledore, however, was choosing another lemon drop and did not answer.
> 
> "What they're saying," she pressed on, "is that last night Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow. He went to find the Potters. The rumor is that Lily and James Potter are --are --that they're dead.
> 
> ...



As you can see, it is Professor McGonagall is who speaks first in this excerpt. 

As for the gasp, she gasped because of the emotional hit of finding out that Lily and James were dead. She hadn't wanted to believe it, you see. But when Dumbledore bowed his head, she knew it was true.

The ellipses are to show her emotional speech; the stifled tears, perhaps; the pause to steady her voice.

So, using whatever dialog you choose, how would you write such an emotional scene? I would like to know so I can have more than one option, myself.


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## Bayview (May 8, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> Oh, why not rewrite J.K.Rowling? Writing an outline for the seventh HP book, which I seriously disliked by comparison to the first, is what started me seriously writing. She a person. She puts her pants on one leg at a time, just like the rest of us.
> 
> Sure. I spend time trying to understand the HP phenomenon, but I don't hold Rowling up as better than anyone. But that's neither here nor there. If you don't want to try to demonstrate how the scene can be done without ellipses, so be it.
> 
> ...



I feel like you can get more than one option from reading expertly written, published material from authors of wonderful skill, rather than trying to push someone who has no feel for the characters and no interest in the story to come up with something off the cuff on a writing forum.

Surely you've read emotional scenes without millions of ellipses before? How did those authors handle it?


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## bdcharles (May 8, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> Oh, why not rewrite J.K.Rowling? Writing an outline for the seventh HP book, which I seriously disliked by comparison to the first, is what started me seriously writing. She a person. She puts her pants on one leg at a time, just like the rest of us.
> 
> Sure. I spend time trying to understand the HP phenomenon, but I don't hold Rowling up as better than anyone. But that's neither here nor there. If you don't want to try to demonstrate how the scene can be done without ellipses, so be it.
> 
> ...



In the absence of the COF: my personal preference, as a non YA writer, would be to insert body language and props in the gaps; eg (taken from someone standing near by for POV)

Dumbledore bowed his head. Professor McGonagall gasped.
"Lily and James..." Her hand went to her throat, as if she sought to protect the choker there. "I can't believe it, I didn't want to believe it. " A tiny shudder. The light of a candle caught the corner of one stern eye. " Oh, Albus."
Dumbledore reached out and patted her on the shoulder. "I know," he said heavily. "I know."

Equally, it's possible in, say McGonnagal's viewppont to depict it:

Dumbledore bowed his head. Professor McGonagall gasped.
"Lily and James - " It couldn't be true. Could it? Poor Harry. How much darker the world suddenly seemed, how less complete. A candle shuddered in its sconce, and Minerva felt the first spasms of a grieftwitch. "I can't believe it, I didn't want to believe it, Oh, Albus."
Dumbledore reached out and patted her on the shoulder. "I know," the headmaster sighed. "I know."

Of course, HP is YA, so the style will somewhat tend to that, and the above may very well jar when seen in context.

(and I just _had _to bomb "grieftwitch" in there!)


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## Bayview (May 8, 2018)

bdcharles said:


> In the absence of the COF: my personal preference, as a non YA writer, would be to insert body language and props in the gaps; eg (taken from someone standing near by for POV)
> 
> Dumbledore bowed his head. Professor McGonagall gasped.
> "Lily and James..." Her hand went to her throat, as if she sought to protect the choker there. "I can't believe it, I didn't want to believe it. " A tiny shudder. The light of a candle caught the corner of one stern eye. " Oh, Albus."
> ...



These work for me - I especially like using the dialogue tag between the "I know"s.


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## Jack of all trades (May 8, 2018)

bdcharles said:


> In the absence of the COF: my personal preference, as a non YA writer, would be to insert body language and props in the gaps; eg (taken from someone standing near by for POV)
> 
> Dumbledore bowed his head. Professor McGonagall gasped.
> "Lily and James..." Her hand went to her throat, as if she sought to protect the choker there. "I can't believe it, I didn't want to believe it. " A tiny shudder. The light of a candle caught the corner of one stern eye. " Oh, Albus."
> ...



Well, points for accepting the challenge!

You're right about it jarring, though. The two are sitting on a wall on a dark street, so there's no candlelight, and McGonagall doesn't seem the choker type to me. Still, I see your point. Thanks. 

Maybe you can explain a few things. What's COF? I got nothing when I Goggled grieftwitch. And what does HP being YA have to do with using ellipses or inserting dialog tags?


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## Jack of all trades (May 8, 2018)

There's a Writing Discussion thread about liking details, and this thread is touching a point brought up there.

One member said he deliberately described a girl/woman as beautiful and left it at that because each reader's opinion of beauty is different.

I see the ellipses as similar. By not specifying what actions occurred, the reader is free to imagine the scene based on personal experience, or observations, or whatever. I like it better that way, but to each his own.


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## EmmaSohan (May 8, 2018)

Do you want the "but"?



Kyle R said:


> "That's my son, that's Dylan, he's my—" But the boy looks up at me, his eyes wide and unblinking, his face taut with fright, and nothing about him looks familiar. The freckles don't match. The nose is too narrow. The lips are missing that funny, lopsided quirk. This boy—he's not my son. He's just someone else's kid, and here I am, grabbing at him like a lunatic.
> 
> Oh, God. Is this how far I've fallen?​



Really, that _but _gives too much away. For presenting information to the reader, _but _is perfect. For doing what you want to do (I think) -- the next sentence has the horror you want if you don't give away things with the but. I like your rewrite, it's not what I would have done, but it works nicely, it has that goal of focusing on the reader's experience.

[Edited: I misquoted Evanovich. Now deleted. I'm really sorry]


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## bdcharles (May 9, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> Well, points for accepting the challenge!
> 
> You're right about it jarring, though. The two are sitting on a wall on a dark street, so there's no candlelight, and McGonagall doesn't seem the choker type to me. Still, I see your point. Thanks.
> 
> Maybe you can explain a few things. What's COF? I got nothing when I Goggled grieftwitch. And what does HP being YA have to do with using ellipses or inserting dialog tags?




COF = Colors of Fiction monthly rewrite comp here @WF. Grief twitch is made up...

As for YA / ellipsis, ellipsis to me seem like the easy choice, the go-to option to convey grief of whichever emotion. They’re not wrong, they’re just not particularly challenging to write, simple to interpret, hence may crop up more in ya.


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## Jack of all trades (May 9, 2018)

bdcharles said:


> COF = Colors of Fiction monthly rewrite comp here @WF. Grief twitch is made up...
> 
> As for YA / ellipsis, ellipsis to me seem like the easy choice, the go-to option to convey grief of whichever emotion. They’re not wrong, they’re just not particularly challenging to write, simple to interpret, hence may crop up more in ya.



So ellipses are the lazy way? What about my earlier comment of giving more room for the reader to envision the scene the way he/she likes?


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## bdcharles (May 9, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> So ellipses are the lazy way? What about my earlier comment of giving more room for the reader to envision the scene the way he/she likes?



I can't say whether it is the lazy option or whether, after much deliberating and rewriting and editing, JKR decided they were the best choice at that time, but to me they do form a sort of shorthand that could be expanded on - _if_ the context demands it. If not then fine. It depends on the reader, and what they want.

As for allowing the reader to see things their way, I see your point - but does it actually work like that? They might just see less. Of course, many's the time I've been reading about some character, picturing them such and such a way, only to discover some ludicrous amount of time through the story that they have black hair instead of blond or something. I wish they would never tell me, or give it to me up front. But also I want, and expect, the author to have the imaginative power not to leave too much up to me, to communicate their vision and dazzle me with it and be the full architect of their world. Otherwise it seems a bit remiss. They might get funny ideas about writing a book full of blank pages onto which I then project my own story. I might as well write my own novel at that point. But that said, I do have ellipses and adverbs and telling and various omissions and so on in my WIPs. Like all things, I suppose, moderation is the watchword.


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## EmmaSohan (May 9, 2018)

For me, ellipses show trailing off or a pause. Anything else is something different.

"I can't believe it, I didn't want to believe it, Oh, Albus."
"I can't believe it . . . I didn't want to believe it . . . Oh, Albus."
"I can't believe it. I didn't want to believe it. Oh, Albus."
"I can't believe it; I didn't want to believe it; Oh, Albus."

You should pick the best one?  In Y/A, you are expected to use italics, ellipses, etc. to portray how someone is speaking. That's kind of the opposite of lazy. The separation of phrases:




> She forgets Blondie again in trying to calculate if she might not . . .while Scott's making his remarks . . . very surreptitiously mind you. . . (Lisey's Story, King, page 35)


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## Bayview (May 9, 2018)

EmmaSohan said:


> For me, ellipses show trailing off or a pause. Anything else is something different.
> 
> "I can't believe it, I didn't want to believe it, Oh, Albus."
> "I can't believe it . . . I didn't want to believe it . . . Oh, Albus."
> ...



I have four YA novels published and I've never used that many ellipses. Now, I'm not JK Rowling - obviously they work for her. But I don't think it's any sort of universal expectation of YA.


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## EmmaSohan (May 9, 2018)

Bayview said:


> I have four YA novels published and I've never used that many ellipses. Now, I'm not JK Rowling - obviously they work for her. But I don't think it's any sort of universal expectation of YA.



Right, yes. It's just a tool. As long as you don't ever have your characters trail off, or pause, or have a dramatic pause, you don't need ellipses at all. I once looked at what authors did, and I thought I saw them either using dashes or ellipses, but usually not both. But that was hard to document and I gave up. Hammett doesn't use ellpses at all, as far as I know, in one place he used a dash and explained that it was trailing off. I also found one author using a lot of dashes and ellipses to create her characters. It gave them a distinctive feel. (And the book sold well -- Twilight).

So, you wold certainly want as many tools in your tool box as you could, but you don't necessarily need them.


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## Bayview (May 10, 2018)

EmmaSohan said:


> Right, yes. It's just a tool. As long as you don't ever have your characters trail off, or pause, or have a dramatic pause, you don't need ellipses at all. I once looked at what authors did, and I thought I saw them either using dashes or ellipses, but usually not both. But that was hard to document and I gave up. Hammett doesn't use ellpses at all, as far as I know, in one place he used a dash and explained that it was trailing off. I also found one author using a lot of dashes and ellipses to create her characters. It gave them a distinctive feel. (And the book sold well -- Twilight).
> 
> So, you wold certainly want as many tools in your tool box as you could, but you don't necessarily need them.



I use both ellipses and m-dashes... an ellipses for a trail-off, an m-dash for a cut-off. I just don't use nearly as many all in one clump! 

And again, none of this is about sales or quality of writing, it's about personal taste. My personal taste does not run to writing that uses a lot of ellipses and m-dashes all together. My personal taste also doesn't run to Harry Potter, or, I imagine, Twilight, although I admit I've never tried it.

And my personal taste shouldn't be of interest to anyone but me, except insofar as it's evidence that there's probably no one _right_ way to write, at the sentence level or any larger level. You appreciate the effect that's given by a lot of ellipses/dashes; I don't appreciate that effect. Neither one of us is right or wrong. We just have different taste.

So while I think there's a lot of value to be gained from close reading and study of the way our favourite authors construct their works, I think we have to accept that we're learning to emulate _our_ favourite authors, not discovering universal truths about writing.


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## EmmaSohan (May 10, 2018)

Bayview said:


> I use both ellipses and m-dashes... an ellipses for a trail-off, an m-dash for a cut-off. I just don't use nearly as many all in one clump!
> 
> And again, none of this is about sales or quality of writing, it's about personal taste. My personal taste does not run to writing that uses a lot of ellipses and m-dashes all together. My personal taste also doesn't run to Harry Potter, or, I imagine, Twilight, although I admit I've never tried it.
> 
> ...



Exactly, I agree. The Harry Potter scene was just something I thought was better on reading than in my memory. It was in my notes in my chapter on ellipses and dashes, which is why it has a lot of those, but I didn't think about that when I posted. So it's an extreme even for that book.

The Sakey post was one of my examples of a mid-sentence paragraph break. I guess that's only needed to change the reading experience? Anyway, I didn't think about that either. You asked for scenes I thought were not underperforming. There's a lot, but most of them look really ordinary.


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## liminal_luke (Jul 30, 2018)

In the first example, I also like the option that includes "My words trail off..."  I think that option is better because the internal conflict within the character is more fleshed out.  The more internal conflict, the more excitement.


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## EmmaSohan (Jul 30, 2018)

liminal_luke said:


> In the first example, I also like the option that includes "My words trail off..."  I think that option is better because the internal conflict within the character is more fleshed out.  The more internal conflict, the more excitement.



I feel like I was just given the homework assignment to reread a 2 month old thread that I started. I thank you for the experience, painful though it sometimes was.

Do you like internal conflict? I'm not exactly sure what it even is; I do try to write it, but I find it difficult and not that exciting. And I usually do not like reading a paragraph of internal conflict.

I wasn't interested in logical opinion, I was interested in emotional response to those sentences, in context, _when I didn't provide the context_. (I don't know which one you were giving.)

People don't run around with a probability meter on their thoughts. She thought it was her son, and didn't question that. At some point something changed. She realized, with a sick feeling, that it wasn't her son. She realized, with a sick feeling, that it might not be her son.

I don't want to describe that moment, I want the reader to experience that sick feeling. "the realization hits me" is describing; "My words trail off" is describing. So I wouldn't write those or enjoy them. (Acknowledging that everyone is differet)


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