# Canada and cultural appropriation?



## MichelD (Jan 6, 2020)

Are there any other Canadian writers here nervous about including first Nations characters and situations in their fiction?

I grew up with, went to school with, am friends with, worked and played with First Nations  people and I include them in my stories.

Considering the current political climate though, as a non First Nations person I'm cautious about even submitting my work to publishers.


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## KHK (Jan 6, 2020)

In all honesty, I am sick and tired of hearing about this PC crap.
Write whatever you see fit, give it to your First Nations friends to read, and if *they* don't mind and have no objections, treat everything else as just noise.
All these self-righteous social justice warriors are not worth your concern.


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## luckyscars (Jan 6, 2020)

Just do your research extremely well AND have it beta read (or, is possible, written alongside or in consultation with) First Nations people — preferably those who are also intimately familiar with the history of their culture and I think you’ll be fine. I think you’re right to be concerned. It’s really not an “SJW” issue but simply an issue of accuracy, right? You wouldn’t write a cook book without understanding the ingredients.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jan 6, 2020)

I'm with KHK on this.
If you listen to the social justice extremists then you would only be able to write about people of your own ethnicity.
That's bunk. We are writers, and if you can write about space aliens, then you can sure as hell write about people of other ethnic groups.

But if you don't wanna get trolled for it, then do your homework and write them right.
Write real people.


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## KHK (Jan 6, 2020)

I completely agree with the accuracy part.
Unless the author intends to deliberately (or by omission) insult whatever group of people - in which case I don't want any interaction with such author altogether - any characters should be three-dimensional human beings. Yes, with their strengths and flaws - but not caricatures.

But I believe the original question was not about this.
MichelD asked specifically about "cultural appropriation" which I, personally, consider a purely SJW, "woke" concept that should itself be seen as offensive by any thinking individual that is not paternalistic to any group of people.
The idea that this group of people may have some special veto right on any artifacts of their culture is utterly bizarre in my eyes.

P.S. This is coming from someone who's gone through 2 immigrations, speaks 3 languages, and belongs to a very sensitive and easily offended group of people ;-)


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## ironpony (Jan 7, 2020)

I'm Canadian, but I've never written about first nations people particular in a story yet.  I have written some short film screenplays, where first nations people were cast in it later, as some of the characters though, but no race was specified on paper.  That probably doesn't help though the OP though.


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## undead_av (Jan 7, 2020)

I agree with KHK--don't worry about the noise. Research, have beta readers, but don't be scared to write what you want to. As long as you love your characters and care about them--you're good. You might mess up but you can always fix it. It seems like writing First Nations characters comes naturally to you. I say write them--I don't see a lot of Native characters in fiction and if you're doing your best to represent them well, I think that's awesome. There's always going to be people who won't like aspects of what you write, and while you should listen to criticism, don't listen to people who say you can't write a certain race/culture because you aren't that. Writing for me is about going outside myself and delving into characters and experiences not my own--not haphazardly, but with research and care. So as long as you're doing that, you're good.


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## luckyscars (Jan 7, 2020)

KHK said:


> I completely agree with the accuracy part.
> But I believe the original question was not about this.
> MichelD asked specifically about "cultural appropriation" which I, personally, consider a purely SJW, "woke" concept that should itself be seen as offensive by any thinking individual that is not paternalistic to any group of people.
> The idea that this group of people may have some special veto right on any artifacts of their culture is utterly bizarre in my eyes.



Yes, but that's a sociological/political point and of tenuous relevance to writing. 

This type of topic has been discussed and debated on this board ad nauseum. I appreciate you are a newer member so may not be aware of that, but a _very_ brief search of threads going back only a matter of a few weeks and months will demonstrate to you quite plainly that nobody on this board would say that any topics are off-limits to any writer, or that any demographic has a veto. In short: Nobody needs to go there with the 'I hate SJW's' stuff, it's a non-issue with adult, sane people. Every single time the matter comes up here, the tantrums, and ultimately the agreement, end broadly with agreement.

The only question worth discussing, where reasonable people may disagree, is what level of care should be taken to certain topics with regard to accuracy, and how to minimize (reasonable) accusations of opportunism and carelessness with regard to culture, race, religion, etc. That is a perfectly valid question and the only one relevant to 'appropriation'.  Indeed, that's what the adult-level definition of 'appropriation' actually means, not simply 'you can't touch X because you are Y'. Nobody sane-minded believes that.

As stated: The OP is right to tread carefully, however provided they do the necessary research and ensure they listen to the opinions of First Nation people prior to hitting the 'publish' button, they should not feel gagged. I assume everybody agrees.


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## KHK (Jan 7, 2020)

Nice!
It was worth joining this forum, if for no other reason, to get the most polite and eloquent dressing down I've ever received! ;-)
Leaving aside the search tips, I concur that this is probably going to be yet another case of a discussion ending broadly with an agreement.


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## TL Murphy (Jan 7, 2020)

MichelD said:


> Are there any other Canadian writers here nervous about including first Nations characters and situations in their fiction?



I am a Canadian writer and I am nervous about including first nations characters and situations in my work. So it seems that this question is addressed to me.  

First of all, it is not characters that I'm so concerned about, it's cultural appropriation. I know there's a lot of flack about self-righteous PC crap. That's just noise as far as I'm concerned. There is a real issue at stake and that is stereotyping and the reinterpretation of history from a naive or false point of reference which is very easy to do when it's a member of the dominant culture assuming things about members of the subordinate culture. 

It is laughable to compare writing about indigenous people to writing about space aliens. As far as we know, there are no space aliens on the planet. Anything ever written about space aliens in the past or future is pure fiction. There is no one to offend or harm by false assertions. There is no stereotype contrary to history to 
reinforce. Space aliens haven't  been slaughtered, enslaved, raped, relocated, poisoned, tortured, stripped of there homeland, their human rights, their culture, language, history  or future, nor have they been exploited for personal fame and glory. There aren't any space aliens and never have been. On the other hand, indigenous people are real people with a real history and no one should be making shit up about them.

There is a difference between cultural appropriation and including ethnic characters in a work of fiction. The difference should be obvious. And obviously, one should never make assumptions about history or culture that one doesn't have clear knowledge of. Growing up with Indian friends isn't good enough.


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## Amnesiac (Jan 7, 2020)

What is "cultural appropriation"? Most of us in the world are from somewhere. Whether our ancestors migrated across the Aleutian land bridge, fled Dublin during the troubles or the potato blight, or our ancestors moved around throughout Europe, the Middle East, or were displaced by war or famine or seeking after a better life... We are all a melting pot; a mishmash conglomeration of cultural and ancestral soup. Holy crap, I get sick of the talking heads of the media coining these terms that we all carry around like a sack of concrete on our shoulders. If the focus is on pickaninny crap like this, what are we being purposely distracted from?


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## TL Murphy (Jan 7, 2020)

Okay, here is a clear case of cultural appropriation: In Canada, which has a population less than the state of California, artists rely on government grants to survive since the market is not large enough to support artists and Canada has recognized that supporting art is essential to maintaining and documenting national character. 

Right now, because of recent political revelations, Canada is heavily funding indigenous artists in an attempt to balance hundreds of years of cultural repression.  You don't have to live on a reservation or speak Cree or wear moccasins to call yourself First Nations. A lot of white Canadians have found a drop of aboriginal DNA in their blood or somehow manage to find an elder to "adopt" them, and they claim to be aboriginal. But they have no real connection to indigenous culture or heritage. They're white. They grew up white. Their parents and grandparents are white. They get grant money for indigenous art. They produce art that they call indigenous art. They get jobs directing indigenous art programs. 

This is clearly fraud. It's criminal. They are pretending to be something they are not and they get away with it precisely because they are members of the dominant culture and know how to navigate within the dominant culture better than those who the incentive is actually intended for.


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## Bayview (Jan 7, 2020)

Amnesiac said:


> What is "cultural appropriation"? Most of us in the world are from somewhere. Whether our ancestors migrated across the Aleutian land bridge, fled Dublin during the troubles or the potato blight, or our ancestors moved around throughout Europe, the Middle East, or were displaced by war or famine or seeking after a better life... We are all a melting pot; a mishmash conglomeration of cultural and ancestral soup. Holy crap, I get sick of the talking heads of the media coining these terms that we all carry around like a sack of concrete on our shoulders. If the focus is on pickaninny crap like this, what are we being purposely distracted from?



Is "pickaninny" the word you meant to use? In terms of distraction, it seems like a humdinger. (ETA: I'm wondering if you meant picayune?)

On the topic as a whole - I agree that there's no black and white, here. When writing about someone else's culture, especially when that culture has been attacked and minimized and shit on as much as the First Nations culture in Canada has been, I think it's important to take care. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it at all, but I think you have a responsibility to make sure you do it right.

And, no, this isn't in order to avoid being unfairly criticized or because of "PC crap" or whatever else; it's because it's an asshole move to look at a group of people who've already been kicked around for generations and then kick them some more. IF you're going to write about them, make sure your writing isn't kicking them. That just seems like basic human decency to me.


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## luckyscars (Jan 8, 2020)

The problem is, people always want to make the argument about the legitimacy of the term itself. I think a lot of time people get so knotted up, so triggered, by the idea of 'Someone is telling ME what I should/should not wear/say/play/write' that the arguments as to the detail and the reasoning behind it gets  obscured by the emotional reaction to the terminology and imagined affront to one's liberty rather than to what is actually talked about by the vast majority of grown-ups. People don't want to have the conversation, it seems. They don't want to listen, they just want to talk.

I think the difference between 'cultural appropriation' (which is bad and unnecessary) and celebrating diversity and taking an interest in other cultures, religions, etc. (which is good and necessary) is 100% down to:

(1) *Authenticity & Accuracy:* Is the use of [aspect] in keeping with how it is intended and, if not, is the way it is being used in keeping with the spirit of that idea? How much do you, as a writer, actually know about it? And, more importantly, how much are you willing to learn?

(2) *Situation & Context: *So you're a white guy dressed in traditional Native American/First Nations costume: Are you dressed that way because you're attending, I don't know, a Native/First Nations wedding, or are you dressed that way because it's Spring Break and your buddies call you 'Fred Redskin' when you drink because your nose goes red and it's all MEGA LOLZ? There's a huge difference between those two, isn't there? And we know what kind of writing is the equivalent of each, do we not?

(3)* Motive: *This one is tricky, because it requires a lot of self-awareness, but...do you think you're maybe being kind of trashy when you don't include things properly, or for thoughtful reasons? Do you think you _might _be acting like a douche when you, I don't know, wear a t-shirt featuring various Rastafarian religious symbols together with the slogan that says "SMOKE WEED AND CHILL" and not give a second thought that, to a sizeable percentage of people, that is a classless appropriation of their core beliefs in the name of $5 kitsch? Do you think it's maybe a _bit_ of a dick move to affect a 'ghetto' accent and aesthetic in your narrative when you know full well it's not _your _voice? If you feel like an asshole, you are probably an asshole. If you don't, you're probably -- or hopefully -- not. At the end of the day, it's a conscience thing, right?

I dunno man, I don't really find it an issue most days. My current WIP explores early 20th century Jewish and African-American identity, language and culture quite heavily and dabbles in various pieces of Jewish folklore and includes both African-American vernacular yiddish-isms. I'm not Jewish, and I'm definitely not African American... 

For me, getting past the issue is mostly a case of questioning _constantly _what I was writing and what I was trying to say (once the first draft is done -- I don't think first drafts should be over-thought) and evaluating it according to whether it worked (which all writers should do anyway with everything, right?). The only MAJOR hardship was I felt I had to research more carefully than usual... but so what? If I was writing a novel about aircraft carriers or bonsai plants or the geology of Kazakhstan, then I'd have to research those things, too. I'm not about to complain about something that actually makes me work harder to make my writing more realistic.

So no, this doesn't _have_ to be an area of misery. This doesn't _have _to be a crisis every time it comes up. All it should be is a reason to think more; to pay more attention to detail and how things come across; and yeah, be kind.


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## CyberWar (Jan 8, 2020)

I don't really see what the problem with the so-called "cultural appropriation" is to begin with. It's been around since the dawn of mankind, and is one of the forms how cultural enrichment (supposedly a good thing according to the Liberal Left) takes place. Romans eagerly appropriated Greek culture, to the point that historians would have to coin the term "Graeco-Roman". The Church appropriated local heathen traditions and beliefs and remade them into Christianized form in order to facilitate conversion. Every self-respecting nobleman of the Early Modern Age appropriated French language and culture to be fashionable. Commoners appropriated the high culture of the nobility, giving rise to the modern understanding of chivalry and good manners. Nowadays, just about everyone in the world has appropriated American popular culture to some degree.

Fact is, cultural appropriation is a natural and inevitable process of living in a world with other cultures. There's just no way of escaping it, short of complete self-imposed isolation in the manner of North Korea. Whether one likes it or not, outsiders frequently exposed to one's culture will inevitably see something appealing and appropriate it, often simply for it's aesthetic qualities, without understanding of its significance.

---

With that said, I think the OP should not hold back with writing Native characters, especially if acquainted with actual Natives who can be consulted on cultural matters. Better yet, mention these "cultural consultants" in the credits, so that the professionally-offended SJW crowd has no excuse whatsoever to whine and bitch without making themselves look like idiots (not that they already do).


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## bdcharles (Jan 8, 2020)

CyberWar said:


> I don't really see what the problem with the so-called "cultural appropriation" is to begin with. It's been around since the dawn of mankind, and is one of the forms how cultural enrichment (supposedly a good thing according to the Liberal Left) takes place. Romans eagerly appropriated Greek culture, to the point that historians would have to coin the term "Graeco-Roman". The Church appropriated local heathen traditions and beliefs and remade them into Christianized form in order to facilitate conversion. Every self-respecting nobleman of the Early Modern Age appropriated French language and culture to be fashionable. Commoners appropriated the high culture of the nobility, giving rise to the modern understanding of chivalry and good manners. Nowadays, just about everyone in the world has appropriated American popular culture to some degree.
> 
> Fact is, cultural appropriation is a natural and inevitable process of living in a world with other cultures. There's just no way of escaping it, short of complete self-imposed isolation in the manner of North Korea. Whether one likes it or not, outsiders frequently exposed to one's culture will inevitably see something appealing and appropriate it, often simply for it's aesthetic qualities, without understanding of its significance.



Where broadly equivalent cultures mix, it's not so much of a problem (and probably has a different name). The problem occurs when a less dominant culture finds its artifacts being used by some more dominant culture, to whom they may not have the same significance. The less dominant culture then gets sort of pushed out of visibility. In a way, it's a subtle form of theft.


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## Bayview (Jan 8, 2020)

Can I offer a proposal that we stop using the meaningless "SJW", "professionally offended", etc. terms? There are people ON THIS THREAD who are arguing that cultural appropriation can sometimes be a problem, so the people you're insulting with these terms aren't distant or random, they're your fellow WF posters. And so far they're (we're) doing a good job of not responding with equally knee-jerk, equally unfair terms like "racist" or "ignorant"... but that doesn't mean they're enjoying the insults.

If you don't think cultural appropriation is an issue, you can certainly argue that point without the more sweeping generalizations, can't you?


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## bdcharles (Jan 8, 2020)

Bayview said:


> doing a good job of not responding with equally knee-jerk, equally unfair terms like "racist" or "ignorant"... but that doesn't mean they're enjoying the insults.



Fortunately my intellect's _too _towering, my self-regard _too _gargantuan, to be bothered by such stuff other than as sport or diversion. But it does lend a certain ugliness.


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## CyberWar (Jan 8, 2020)

bdcharles said:


> Where broadly equivalent cultures mix, it's not so much of a problem (and probably has a different name). The problem occurs when a less dominant culture finds its artifacts being used by some more dominant culture, to whom they may not have the same significance. The less dominant culture then gets sort of pushed out of visibility. In a way, it's a subtle form of theft.



Perhaps, but it happens all the time, and if anything is also an opportunity for the non-dominant culture to educate the broader world about itself and survive in doing so. If it weren't for cultural appropriation, most people even within North America wouldn't even know anything about Amerindian cultures other than that they exist. I get how natives might get upset about elements of their culture being treated as meaningless articles of fashion by outsiders, but there isn't much that can be done about it - people won't stop adopting things from foreign cultures for aesthetic purposes simply because some very vocal folks (most of whom aren't even members of the said culture) decry cultural appropriation. Rather, I think such appropriations are an opportunity to popularize one's culture and educate people about it.

As for using terms of abuse, I agree, it does not facilitate intelligent, civil discussion, and is in fact characteristic to the hysterical mob of radicals that I so despise. Being better than them, I will strive to avoid the use of such terms from here on.


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## Foxee (Jan 8, 2020)

Interesting that on a website devoted to the written word and what words mean, no one seems to be asking if 'cultural appropriation' is a term with a legitimate purpose or a real actual meaning.

Meanings seem to broadly include (but are not limited to):


Unfairly portraying another culture (being insulting in doing so)
Being arrogant enough to research, appreciate, and portray another culture but you cannot be considered correct in doing so because you aren't of that culture.
'Unfairly' taking on the aspects of another culture, as though by doing that for any reason it is always a mockery
Taking funds from government handouts under criminal pretenses

There may be more but this seems like an expression that mainly exists to stifle, not help.

Of course it's insulting to insult or mock another culture, we don't need a new term for that.

Research is research, appreciation is appreciation, by researching, writing about, celebrating a culture you're bringing more attention TO it, you are not appropriating, or taking anything.

Cheating to get government money is fraudulent, also a perfectly good word with a succinct meaning.

The expression "Cultural appropriation" doesn't seem to have the guts to mean any of these things in a real way, not like the original words do. But it does seem to be a handy way to scare people and intimidate them from doing creative work, exploring other cultures, and perhaps bringing value across the board.


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## KHK (Jan 8, 2020)

Coming from the natural sciences background, I often find terms in Sociology (and many other Humanities disciplines) too vaguely defined and imprecise. Their existence saws so much confusion, ambiguity - and yes, even discord - that in some cases it looks like the discourse would have been better off without a certain term having been coined at all.

"Cultural appropriation" appears to be one such. In this thread alone, several vastly different definitions have already been provided.
And in my opinion - yes, again, formed by the sanctity of the scientific method, reproducibility of experimental results, etc. - whenever a term means multiple things, it means nothing, because it cannot be accurately used. Instead, when used, rather than clarifying the subject of the discussion, it only further muddies it.

There does seem to be a certain core consensus in this thread. This may come as a surprise to some of its participants, but I do wholeheartedly subscribe to it too.
As I see it, it boils down to:

Authenticity;
Accuracy;
Doing your research;
Not stereotyping (or maligning) any demographic;
Most importantly (and that's the overarching sentiment, guiding and covering all of the above), basic human decency, as *Bayview *so aptly put it.

If you read the above carefully, you may observe that none of this has anything to do with any kind of _appropriation_.
*Cultural sensitivity*? Yes, very much so.
*Intellectual honesty*? Yes.
Thoroughly *researching* what you're writing about? Yes, always a good idea.
*Being a decent human being*? Hell, yes. Amen to that!
But _appropriation_? That's clearly a misnomer. The only appropriation I see in this thread is of the "adult" demographic by *luckyscars*_. _;-)

Now, to the kneejerk reaction part.
It is that, indeed.
And the reason is that many of such terms, originally coined with the best intentions but, as I point out above, largely imprecise and lacking a solid scope or definition, have been coopted by a vocal minority that is ready and willing to use those terms (most of the time, incorrectly, out of their proper context, and with the shallowest possible reading on their originally intended meaning) to shout down any dissent. Case in point (and just one example of many): yoga class shut down in the University of Ottawa due to "concerns about cultural appropriation" (read, only people in/from India are allowed to practice yoga because anyone else would lack the cultural and spiritual aspects of this tradition).

I would also like to point out this aspect in the Topic Starter's question:


MichelD said:


> Considering the current political climate though, as a non First Nations person I'm cautious about even submitting my work to publishers.


This illustrates my point exactly. I am 100% sure that *MichelD* does everything to avoid unfairly portraying or otherwise offending the First Nations, so this isn't meant as any kind of criticism. What I'd like to point out is that the concern expressed in the quoted text is about the political climate, and about how publishing houses may even be leery to accept any manuscripts touching on the First Nations subject, for fear of being ostracized.

This is not a healthy atmosphere in general, and in particular it is not conducive of creativity. Hence the kneejerk reaction to the term.

P.S. For the sake of fostering productive dialog, my New Year's resolution will be to henceforth refrain from using the term SJW ;-)


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## Amnesiac (Jan 8, 2020)

Bayview said:


> Is "pickaninny" the word you meant to use? In terms of distraction, it seems like a humdinger. (ETA: I'm wondering if you meant picayune?)
> 
> On the topic as a whole - I agree that there's no black and white, here. When writing about someone else's culture, especially when that culture has been attacked and minimized and shit on as much as the First Nations culture in Canada has been, I think it's important to take care. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it at all, but I think you have a responsibility to make sure you do it right.
> 
> And, no, this isn't in order to avoid being unfairly criticized or because of "PC crap" or whatever else; it's because it's an asshole move to look at a group of people who've already been kicked around for generations and then kick them some more. IF you're going to write about them, make sure your writing isn't kicking them. That just seems like basic human decency to me.



I think you've got me entirely wrong, Bayview. I am Irish, English, and Crow Indian, by heritage. I probably dwell closest to my Irish roots, given my upbringing. I agree that if one is going to write about another culture, or one of their main characters is of a certain heritage or ethnicity, then the same rules apply as with writing about any other topic: Do your homework; do your research. Like LuckyScars said, "Do it right."

Thank you for ridiculing my use of the word pickaninny. 

Came for the writing, stayed for the ridicule. /shrug


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## Amnesiac (Jan 8, 2020)

As for special treatment; "Endowment of the Arts," to certain ethnic groups, I think that if certain scholarships are made available, then that's a good thing. I know that if someone is going to claim to be Native American on job/school/military applications, then they have to produce a tribal affiliation card, or some equivalent. I agree that the Native Americans/First Nations people have been systematically crapped on for two hundred years. I don't know that anything the government does is any kind of solution. After all, it was the government that created the mess in the first place. I don't know what the solution is, but I know the sociology-based PC guilty naval-gazing is about as useless as six teats on a boar.


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## Bayview (Jan 8, 2020)

Amnesiac said:


> Thank you for ridiculing my use of the word pickaninny.
> 
> Came for the writing, stayed for the ridicule. /shrug



Sorry, I didn't mean to make it seem like ridicule, I was just... well, I saw you using a word that's generally seen as a racist slur and came up with the most favourable interpretation I could think of.


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## Amnesiac (Jan 8, 2020)

Hrmmm... I've never seen nor heard it as a racial slur, so thanks for letting me know. I would never knowingly do that. Much appreciated.


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## Ma'am (Jan 8, 2020)

Meh, nvmd.


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## luckyscars (Jan 9, 2020)

CyberWar said:


> Perhaps, but it happens all the time, and if anything is also an opportunity for the non-dominant culture to educate the broader world about itself and survive in doing so. If it weren't for cultural appropriation, most people even within North America wouldn't even know anything about Amerindian cultures other than that they exist. I get how natives might get upset about elements of their culture being treated as meaningless articles of fashion by outsiders, but there isn't much that can be done about it - people won't stop adopting things from foreign cultures for aesthetic purposes simply because some very vocal folks (most of whom aren't even members of the said culture) decry cultural appropriation. Rather, I think such appropriations are an opportunity to popularize one's culture and educate people about it.



The biggest flaw with the argument that 'white people being interested = white people caring more = better for Amerindian culture' is that it's demonstrably not true. At the very least, it's inefficient. 

Of all the millions of Americans who hang a dream-catcher in their house, how many of those millions develop a genuine interest, or love for, Native American culture? Very few, I'd suggest. It doesn't matter how many hours a person might spend reading Last Of The Mohicans or attending some boozy pow-wow, there's little real educational value in most of these things. Most of the popularized aspects of 'foreign' cultures aren't very educational, because there isn't much money or even mass-interest, in the educational value of studying Native American culture. My wife is a high school Social Studies teacher and she teaches American History. Which, shocker, includes almost nothing that is pre-Columbian and barely mentions Native Americans post Andrew Jackson. Nobody cares.

What usually happens is white people cherry-picking particular items they like the look of and incorporate those things into the mass-market culture according to their own preferences and ideas, excluding all the hundreds of Native aspects that are less fashionable. Next thing you know the popular image of Native Americans is something between Grandmother Willow and Chief Wahoo and budget Halloween costumes with plastic head-dresses. And that's what 'cultural appropriation' is.

(Couple this with the fact that American Natives are still incredibly impoverished and discriminated against compared to almost all other ethnic groups, and I can see why there might be a little bit or justified resentment. With an average income of $10,000 a year, per capita, it's not like much of this 'education' has ever given many of them a pot to piss in. So, it's a little disingenuous and paternalistic IMO to assert this 'interest' is or ever will serve _their_ interests or helping _their culture_ 'survive')


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## luckyscars (Jan 9, 2020)

Foxee said:


> Interesting that on a website devoted to the written word and what words mean, no one seems to be asking if 'cultural appropriation' is a term with a legitimate purpose or a real actual meaning.
> 
> Meanings seem to broadly include (but are not limited to):
> 
> ...



It's interesting we talk about 'meanings' without citing where they are coming from. I don't think any thoughtful person describes cultural appropriation as being really any of those examples you gave. Yes they've been mentioned on this thread in connection with the issue, but they're hardly the definition.

Also, just because a term has multiple meanings in different contexts doesn't invalidate it. If it did, you could strike most of the words out of the dictionary as most words and terms have multiple definitions. That isn't a problem. The relevant point is whether any of those definitions contradict each other. None of the ones you provided do, actually, but also none of them really fit the way the term is used in an academic, or just plain thoughtful, context. 

For example, I don't know anybody who would define 'cultural appropriation' as being 'Being arrogant enough to research, appreciate, and portray another culture but you cannot be considered correct in doing so because you aren't of that culture.'  

In the end we all form our own definitions of abstract concepts. My definition, the only one I use, is really the fundamental dictionary-definition. Appropriation is 'to take something for one's own use without permission'. 

The issue of 'permission' is admittedly dicey, because who gives permission? Clearly it's not an individual, and there's no singular authority for 'culture', so there's no definite way to 'get permission'. So, I interpret the permission/consent issue as going back to the criteria I mentioned earlier: Is the culture being depicted accurately or accurate-in-spirit? Does the context justify the usage (does the story I am writing require this in order to work)? And, most importantly, can I write this without feeling like a jerk? If I can answer 'yes' to all three of those, I consider that permission granted.


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## Moose.H (Jan 9, 2020)

Interesting, I don't see any reason to assume issues when you can research them with those who know. An interesting exercise in the first place, look through their eyes at yourself as well. Don't not write about them because that is a loss to your story.


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## JJBuchholz (Jan 10, 2020)

KHK said:


> In all honesty, I am sick and tired of hearing about this PC crap.



Concur.

Write what you want to write about, and don't worry about anything else. Don't let that PC nonsense dictate what you can and cannot write. To do so would put you inside a tiny little box, and limit your creativity.

I say this as a writer, and as a Canadian.

-JJB


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## Amnesiac (Jan 10, 2020)

Foxee said:


> Interesting that on a website devoted to the written word and what words mean, no one seems to be asking if 'cultural appropriation' is a term with a legitimate purpose or a real actual meaning.
> 
> Meanings seem to broadly include (but are not limited to):
> 
> ...





These things are legitimate problems, and definitely should be addressed through social and legal channels. To me, it falls into a similar category as "Stolen Valor," where morons claim medals, uniforms, or awards that they didn't earn, and attempt to pass themselves off as a combat vet, veteran, SEAL, etc. with the aim of fraudulently procuring services, donations, status, or medical care.


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## Ketan (Jan 10, 2020)

Being a minority, maybe a minority of one, I'd rather some tell me what they think to my face rather than hide behind a facade of false civility.  I can deal with the truth.  Can you?


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## Ralph Rotten (Jan 11, 2020)

OMG.
This thread sounds like what would happen if you fed LSD to the staff at NPR.
It has spun way out of context.

Let's get back to the basics. The current definition of CA is:

*Cultural appropriation, at times also phrased cultural misappropriation, is the adoption of elements of one culture by members of another culture. This can be controversial when members of a dominant culture appropriate from disadvantaged minority cultures.*

So right off we see that *WRITING *about native Americans (or First People in Canada) is clearly NOT appropriation. You are not stealing their culture, stealing their music, or misappropriating anything.
You are simply shining a spotlight on the fact that they exist.
The flipside of this [belabored] argument is that a decade ago minorities were complaining that they were UNDER-REPRESENTED in books and media.
But now that people are writing about them, some SJWs* are decrying it as cultural appropriation...??

People, there is a difference between something being racial and being racist. Talking about race does not make you a racist.






*Sorry BV, but SJW is a perfectly apt term for people who are entirely too PC.


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## K.S. Crooks (Jan 11, 2020)

For the series I'm working on the leader of my four main characters is by his looks a First Nations member. I say by his looks because my setting is a fantasy world. It was important for me to have characters that look different. The cultures for the story I created, thus not having to worry about getting things correct and not offending anyone. What I appreciate when a real culture is used in a story are showing subtle aspects such as foods eaten, common phrasings, etc. I would only say be careful not to paint all characters of the same culture with the same brush. Show how people within the same culture and family will differ in their attitudes and behaviour.


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## Amnesiac (Jan 11, 2020)

I thought Charles DeLint, in his novel, "The Onion Girl," did an absolutely stunning job of writing about First Nations people. Fantastic novel, BTW. If I could give it more than 5 stars, I would. One of the few books I read over again, every few years.


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## Ma'am (Jan 11, 2020)

If anyone wants a fun, quick read, I just loved the YA book_ The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian _by Sherman Alexie. Louise Erdrich is another NA writer. These are good examples of knowing the group you're writing about rather than writing clueless caricatures, which it seems to me is the real writing issue here.

But if you're a white, middle-class etc. type writer who just wants to drop in a "less mainstream" person or two in minor roles, I think that's pretty easy to do and doesn't require much, if any, research. From what I've seen, the big publishers do want to see at least a little of that these days, where not every single character is white, straight, middle class, able-bodied, etc. But diversity certainly doesn't have to be the main focus of your story. A better way to get a feel for it is just to look through some well published examples of the type of writing you want to do and see how it's handled.


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## R. A. Busby (Jan 11, 2020)

I think this is a great place to ask for beta readers who are aware of First Nations culture and who can alert  you to the issues you aren't aware of.  Please definitely ignore the folks who say, "Write what you want!"  By effectively showing concern about FN people, you're saying you want to represent them accurately and truthfully and non-offensively.  

What I'd do is put out the word for beta readers who are familiar first and foremost with the specific group of First Nations people you're writing about.  I'm from the desert Southwest of the U.S., so associations I have with Yaqui and Dine and Paiute folks aren't the same as the cultures of the East Coast, for instance.  

I'd also definitely read up on the issue of native American representation on the Internet.  At the very least, they can alert you to typical tropes or misrepresentations you want to avoid.  Using a different example, if you were going to write about an Asian character, it's a great idea to avoid overdone and ultimately harmful stereotypes of "exotic" representation, and so on.

Good for  you for being conscientious.


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## R. A. Busby (Jan 11, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> Yes, but that's a sociological/political point and of tenuous relevance to writing.
> 
> The only question worth discussing, where reasonable people may disagree, is what level of care should be taken to certain topics with regard to accuracy, and how to minimize (reasonable) accusations of opportunism and carelessness with regard to culture, race, religion, etc. That is a perfectly valid question and the only one relevant to 'appropriation'.  Indeed, that's what the adult-level definition of 'appropriation' actually means, not simply 'you can't touch X because you are Y'. Nobody sane-minded believes that.
> 
> As stated: The OP is right to tread carefully, however provided they do the necessary research and ensure they listen to the opinions of First Nation people prior to hitting the 'publish' button, they should not feel gagged. I assume everybody agrees.



This is a fantastic and reasonable reply.  We all appreciate that our genders, races, religions -- heck, even our professions -- be represented with a reasonable degree of accuracy.  Accurate writing, in my opinion, usually results in more nuanced, complex, and ultimately interesting writing.


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