# Male Writers versus Female Writers



## Kyle R

Do you have a gender preference for the authors you read?

Do you think gender plays a role in writing ability?


----------



## Potty

I have a preference for women in all aspects of my life.


----------



## Deleted member 49710

Oh, I thought we were gonna fight it out to figure out who's best, I was all charging in ready to correct someone's grammar or have a vocab smackdown or something.

Anyway, it's only recently that I've been making much effort to keep up with contemporary literature much, but so far I've found myself preferring male authors. I can't give a reason why, other than maybe - and I feel like this is based on stereotypes and thus not entirely true - but _maybe_ men tend to have a somewhat more reserved and therefore subtle approach to emotional content and manipulation. Which is more appealing to me personally, but that's not the same as them being _better._

That and a little cattiness on my part.


----------



## shadowwalker

No and no.


----------



## sunaynaprasad

It doesn't matter. Both genders write fine.


----------



## JackKnife

I don't read very much. I know, I know, reading is one of the most important parts of writing, but... I don't. I don't have favourite authors. I don't have favourite passages or prose or anything.

From what little I do read though, I prefer male authors. I find them more concise and action-oriented, while at the same time giving their characters more appealing features. A lot of female authors that I've read seem very concerned with making their characters attractive, both in appearance and in behaviour, unless they're specifically not meant to be.

DISCLAIMER: Not all female writers do this! I know! I promise, I know. Don't hurt me. Don't throw rocks at me. Male authors can be just as bad. Really!


----------



## Kyle R

From my own reading experiences, the female writers I've encountered have demonstrated more psychological awareness (moving the story inward, to the character's emotions and psyche), whereas the male authors seem to work with a more immediate and urgent approach (moving the story forward, toward events and circumstances).

That's not a reflection of all male and female authors of course, but it's been more or less consistent with the ones I've read.


----------



## felix

I haven't read much fiction written by women, but they've all been masterpieces because of their focus, the command that the authors had over their story and the refined nature of every word. Any great novels written by men tend to be impressive on a much wider scale. They tend to use broader strokes.


----------



## Sam

So far this century, ten of the thirteen winners of the Nobel Prize for Literature have been men.

Something to think about. 

Edit: In fact, there have been 108 winners of the Nobel Prize for Literature, and 96 of them were male.


----------



## shadowwalker

Sam W said:


> So far this century, ten of the thirteen winners of the Nobel Prize for Literature have been men.
> 
> Something to think about.
> 
> Edit: In fact, there have been 108 winners of the Nobel Prize for Literature, and 96 of them were male.



So either male writers are more apt to put their work up for the prize, or the prize committee members are mostly male, or the committee favors male writers, or...


----------



## Bachelorette

I have a very, very dear friend whom I love unconditionally, even though she believes that women are inferior to men in ALL artistic endeavors. As a female writer, that's hard for me to take, and even though I vehemently disagree, she's still my best friend.

More to the point, though, historically and even in modern times, a woman's viewpoint is often regarded as less valid than a man's. Unfairly. I believe that's the real reason my friend thinks women are inferior artists, although of course she doesn't agree with me.  

I think it's true that, in most cases (not all) things that interest women and things that interest men do vary. In fact, Margaret Atwood wrote about this in a prose poem, and I'd like to quote bits of it here, if I may:



> Women do not usually write novels of the type favored by men but men are known to write novels of the type favored by women. Some people find this odd....
> 
> Men’s novels are about how to get power. Killing and so on, or winning and so on. So are women’s novels, though the method is different. In men’s novels, getting the woman or women goes along with getting the power. It’s a perk, not a means. In women’s novels you get the power by getting the man. The man is the power. But sex won’t do, he has to love you....
> 
> Some people think a woman’s novel is anything without politics in it. Some think it’s anything about relationships. Some think it’s anything with a lot of operations in it, medical ones I mean. Some think it’s anything that doesn’t give you a broad panoramic view of our exciting times....



I have no idea what year this was written in, BTW, but I think it still applies, in general, to what people think of when they think of books written by men and books written by women.

Example: lot of people look down upon romance novels or rom-coms - generally favored by women - as shallow and/or irrelevant. But not as many people look down on stupid action novels or whatever, the type of thing generally favored by men. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. Silly entertainment for women is considered just that - silly. Silly entertainment for men, though, is "cool". Something to think about.

If you're wondering what the point of all this text is, or if tl;dr, it is this: even now, in our so-called enlightened times, a "typical" woman's viewpoint is still considered to be less valid than a "typical" man's. And while I find this incredibly sad, I don't see it changing any time soon.

Bottom line: I think there no difference between _skill _as far as women writers and male writers are concerned. There are brilliant male writers and brilliant female writers. There are crappy male writers and crappy female writers, and everything in between. It's the approach and, usually, the subject matter that differs, and that's where people start favoring one or the other, and start classifying certain things, fairly or unfairly, as "male" or "female."


----------



## Deleted member 49710

shadowwalker said:


> So either male writers are more apt to put their work up for the prize, or the prize committee members are mostly male, or the committee favors male writers, or...



... or there is a cultural and academic tendency to see men's work as more serious or intellectual
... or the prize was first awarded in 1901 when women were rarely afforded the same educational or professional opportunities as men, a disparity which has decreased but still exists
... or the cultural demands placed on men and women still differ, so that women are expected to give priority to household and family over career, and in professional contexts (even those you might expect to be very liberal and egalitarian, like say, an English department at a university) are taken less seriously and given less support because who knows, next year she might up and get pregnant
... or...

(honestly, the "scoreboard" argument works for sports games but this is a wee bit more complicated.)


----------



## Terry D

KyleColorado said:


> Do you have a gender preference for the authors you read?



No.  



> Do you think gender plays a role in writing ability?



No.  It plays a huge role in style, however.


----------



## ppsage

In the long and short fiction which I read, the split seems fairly even. I mostly only read work from the second half of the twentieth century forward, a period when access to publication was trending strongly towards equality. Among the fiction authors I enjoy, all that are recognizably feminist seem still to be women. I also read a lot of academic nonfiction—history, science and biography in the main—where I do not keep such close track of who the authors were, but my impression is that in this arena most of what I read was written by men. (edit: Which is by the way, the gender I currently manifest, if that's important.)


----------



## HKayG

I did learn in school that the way different genders brains are wired _does_ affect the way we write.

That men are a lot less prone to waffle, but more prone to miss out necessary details and vice versa for women.

I'm not sure you can really ever say either gender is better though, because you are looking at the individuals good enough to get published, and are experts in their fields.  I would wonder, however, if yu were to take every high school class in the world of a certain age and asked them to write a story based on a theme, all with the same word count - how would the genders fare then? After an equal spread of good and bad writers - who would come out on top?


----------



## Jeko

I read both.

What I can't stand is men that write like women, and women that write like men.


----------



## Bachelorette

Cadence said:


> What I can't stand is men that write like women, and women that write like men.



Not sure I understand what you mean by this. Care to elaborate?


----------



## Jeko

> Not sure I understand what you mean by this. Care to elaborate?



I find there are elements in each gender that make their writing unique. As said before, our brains are a bit different.

People who try to resist that, and join the crowd - people who don't use their gender's gifts - I notice them sometimes. I enjoy their work far less.


----------



## shadowwalker

Cadence said:


> I find there are elements in each gender that make their writing unique. As said before, our brains are a bit different.



Hmm. Not sure I'd agree with that. Personally, I like the writers I do because the writing is similar, male or female. Could you give some kind of example (what sort of elements are you talking about, in other words)?


----------



## FirstTimeNovelist

No preference here, but I seem to read more books written by females than males, and it seems as though most of the really popular authors that are hot right now are women (Suzanne Collins' The Hunger Games, Stephenie Meyer's Twilight, J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter, and that goddawful Fifty Shades of Grey, Nora Roberts, etc).

But I grew up reading R.L. Stine and I thoroughly enjoyed his Goosebumps series.


----------



## Jeko

> Could you give some kind of example (what sort of elements are you talking about, in other words)?



I'm quite partial to what HKayG said: That men are a lot less prone to waffle, but more prone to miss out necessary details and vice versa for women.

I'm mostly into YA fiction at the moment, so my views will mostly be based around that. They might not apply to other genres.

From my experience, female authors seem to write more trapping works and male authors write more intriguing works. Compare Harry Potter, Twilight and The Hunger Games with Skulduggery Pleasant, H.I.V.E and Darren Shan. The former list I get trapped by when I read, but the latter list I find myself reflecting on more for longer periods of time.

I also find that women write to more emotional extremes, but male authors write with more emotional diversity. Compare The Hunger Games and the Magyk series with Artemis Fowl and Coraline. In the former list, one is very dystopian and sad while the other is quite happy all thr way through. In the latter list, neither has one solid emotional standing as they fluctuate a lot. Artemis Fowl mixes feeligns of wisdom and excitement with dread and impending doom while Corlaine has moments of innocence and genuine horror.


----------



## shadowwalker

It might be the genre. I read a lot of thrillers and mysteries, and with one possible exception (only possible because the MC is written in first person), I don't think I could honestly tell whether male or female wrote the books if I didn't recognize the style from reading those authors before. Same with the fantasies I've read. And isn't it in romance that so many guys write as female authors (or used to) and it didn't seem to matter.

I guess I'm just not sure if it's really a gender thing or just the way individual authors differ.


----------



## Cefor

Gender preference? No. As far as I can tell, I have a roughly-equal number of male authors on my shelves to female.

Gender affecting writing ability? No. Writing style? Yes. I do think it's interesting that a lot of the major book series that have entrapped the world of late have been written by women (see the list FirstTimeNovelist mentioned).

I feel that gender often determines the genre of a book. I see far fewer women writing science fiction than fantasy, for example. In fact, I struggle immensely to think of a female science fiction writer. Suzanne Collins, perhaps... but I find it difficult to classify The Hunger Games as science fiction. Fantasy is easy though: J. K. Rowling, Robin Hobb, Charlaine Harris, Naomi Novik, Diana Wynne Jones, to name only a few. Male writers have a fair hand in both genres, though: Neil Gaiman, Jim Butcher, Tolkien, Garth Nix, Eoin Colfer, George Martin, for fantasy; Iain M Banks, Peter Hamilton, Orson Scott Card, Jack Campbell, Philip K Dick and Larry Niven for science fiction.

As for contemporary mainstream fiction, I have not the foggiest. I don't read it, though I may have to for university soon. I do remember hearing/reading that novels were once regarded as a very feminine past time; 'once' being a few hundred years ago.

Maybe there is a kind of prejudice against female authors... but you wouldn't think it initially, when you imagine the success some have had.


----------



## Fin

My favorite author is male, but my favorite book series is by a female. No care will come from me regarding their gender. A good writer/story is a good writer/story.


----------



## JackKnife

I think this is why I'd like to go with a gender-ambiguous pseudonym if I were ever published. Like it or not, plenty of readers probably check a book, see a female or male author, and get ideas right away as to what the book will be like. 'Typical female romance drivel,' they'll think, or 'typical male neanderthal entertainment'. Take gender out of the equation and they might just be forced to judge the piece on what it really is.

I mean, until they go on Google and find out or something, I guess.


----------



## Kyle R

^ Which might be part of the reason Joanne published her series under the abbreviated: "J.K. Rowling".

Also: J.R.R. Tolkien; H.G. Wells; J.G. Ballard; C.S. Lewis . . . Hmm. Maybe abbreviation is the way to go!


----------



## Tiamat

When it comes to books, no.  My favorite two authors are Margaret Atwood and Ray Bradbury, so I'm a 50/50 split.  I don't think one is inherently better than the other just because of the Y chromosome or lack thereof.

Now, if you wanna talk stand-up comedy (which, hey, is partly writing), I have yet to see a female comedian that can make me laugh out loud.  So I would contend that men are funnier than women.


----------



## JackKnife

KyleColorado said:


> ^ Which might be part of the reason Joanne published her series under the abbreviated: "J.K. Rowling".
> 
> Also: J.R.R. Tolkien; H.G. Wells; J.G. Ballard; C.S. Lewis . . . Hmm. Maybe abbreviation is the way to go!



And JD Salinger...

I already have an abbreviation all picked out for the future. I like counting my chickens before they're even conceived.



Tiamat said:


> Now, if you wanna talk stand-up comedy (which, hey, is partly writing), I have yet to see a female comedian that can make me laugh out loud.  So I would contend that men are funnier than women.


Ever watch Gina Yashere or Debra DiGiovanni? Two hilarious women, but then again, I also tend to have a neanderthal's sense of humour at times.


----------



## namesake

I think the it's the taste of the person who is the writer, and so I think we will all can get different answers. There are so many biases, and I do think it is not very reasonable to not have an equal number women in the nobel prize, seems as if there isn't enough diversity in the ballot pool.  For science fiction though only Ursula K. Le Guin stands out for me. Then fantasy of course J. K, Rowling. Though I do consider alfred bester a good example of the best science fiction writing has to offer. And last but not least I do consider Roger Zelanzy Great Book of Amber better than J. K. Rowling, and not many people know about it. I won't ever know, I mean each has its own genre and sub-genre that hasn't be recognized. If you think of alfred bester it is cyber punk. I forgot lord of the rings but I give more respect to writers sometimes when they win a reward that seems more democratic in voting like the nebula. I think Ursula deserved it, alfred bester went unrecognized, and lord of the rings became well recognized. J.k. Rowling though in modern times, is something that is superior to most everything out there at least for me.


----------



## thebigchin11

I have a strong preference for male writers.  As controversial as it sounds I genuinely find more emotional depth in their work.


----------



## Winston

JackKnife said:


> Ever watch Gina Yashere or Debra DiGiovanni? Two hilarious women, but then again, I also tend to have a neanderthal's sense of humour at times.



Lisa Lampanelli!  

Back on track:  If more women wrote hard science fiction, instead of the squishy social-studies dramas, I'd read 'em.  Props to Mary Wollstonecraft Godwin.


----------



## JosephB

Bah. Wrong thread


----------



## authorkid94

Nope, if it's good, I read it. If they're man or woman, i don't really care.


----------



## Arrakis

I judge writers by their potential, not their reproductive organs.


----------



## PatriciaLoupee

Different people will always have different writing abilities, and it doesn't come from gender. But the literary market had in the past, and still shows every now and then some levels of misoginy, but it is starting to fade away, thank heavens.


----------



## Boofy

I've always found men to be funnier than women, heh. Maybe that is down to my being female. It's thrown into sharp relief in stand up comedy. I prefer the styles of a lot of male writers because of their wit, though I can't really say that it is down to more than simply not having read many female writers. All I know is that, whilst I loved Naomi Novik's Temeraire, it doesn't hold a candle to George R R Martin's Song of Ice and Fire.

Until scientists can map brains in their entirety and do a large scale male/female comparison, their findings made public... well, it's all just opinions floating around in here ^^


----------



## InstituteMan

On the one hand, my favorite writers are both men (well, were, they have both left us). On the other hand, there are a number of women I enjoy reading quite a bit (in particular, Margaret Atwood's novels and Patricia Lockwood's poetry at the moment). I sometimes feel like I am getting to peek into the girls locker room when I read something written by a woman, but then when I think about it I am pretty sure that the girl's locker room doesn't actually resemble anything found in a Bridget Jones book.


----------



## TJ1985

InstituteMan said:


> I sometimes feel like I am getting to peek into the girls locker room when I read something written by a woman, but then when I think about it I am pretty sure that the girl's locker room doesn't actually resemble anything found in a Bridget Jones book.



Totally agree. I used to read a lot of trashy girly romance novels. I felt like I was sitting in the back of the room as the ladies talked about their battle plan for the upcoming day versus me and those like me.  

Truly, I know of a few horrifically bad female writers, and I know of a few horrifically bad male writers. However, I don't see a huge "skill" difference between the two. There are writers from both sides that can put me right in a story alongside the characters. There are writers from both sides that couldn't put me into a meadow if they chased me there with a bunch of mean dogs. Writing is writing, and until someone create lists of words only men or women are allowed to use, I'll see it as a pretty level playing field. One gender might find it easier to get published in a certain field*, but for the writing itself, I don't see a whole lot of disparity. 

* Imagine my avatar picture on the back cover of a romance novel... Yeah I can see that not even getting published, and nobody would buy it if I could get it published.


----------



## JamesR

felix said:


> I haven't read much fiction written by women, but they've all been masterpieces because of their focus, the command that the authors had over their story and the refined nature of every word. Any great novels written by men tend to be impressive on a much wider scale. They tend to use broader strokes.



As a sci-fi horror fan, it was the woman Mary Shelley who pioneered our entire genre with _Frankenstein_. This book is considered impressive not only on the fictional scale, but on the philosophical, political, and religious scale as well. Very pivotal to say in least.

But ergo, back on topic.

This is a tough question to answer because there will always be exceptions to the norm and all men and women aren't necessarily identical just because of their sex. But as a rule, I find that female authors tend to develop their characters better whereas male ones develop their narration better.


----------



## Pidgeon84

I'm going to give a rather stereotypical Pidgeon answer here. Gender means nothing to me. Good writing is good writing. There's talk above about different styles between the two, but I would bet a million dollars that if I gave 10 books. 5 male, 5 female you wouldn't be able to tell me what gender wrote what (assuming of course I leave out any cheesy romance :lol. I think we're reading too much into something that may seem like  a big divide, but really isn't.


----------



## BeastlyBeast

I'll be honest, for a bit I felt that men were 'better' at writing than women. In fact, I love fantasy, but up until now, I had never read a fantasy book written by a woman. Then I found _The False Prince_. At first, I was put off by it, because it was written by a woman. The fact that the book was meant for kids in grades quite lower than I (written more for 10-14 yr olds, not 18+ yr olds) discouraged me even further. But, I'm glad I got it anyway, as I actually like the book. It's younger target audience means it's an easier read and I can eat up the story in larger chunks, faster. I'm already 1/3 of the way through the story after reading only 60-70 pages, while I read the same amount in _The Name of the Wind_ and I'm not even a tenth of the way through the book - on the contrary, I'm actually right where the book starts to pick up! Overall, I believe there's a stigma involved with women writing and I (now) don't feel it's deserved. Heck, Harry Potter, written by a woman, is arguably one of the most popular prose franchises in the last 15-20 years. My view? A story's a story - it doesn't matter what's below the author's waist. Heh...


----------



## TDKoon

If you were to examine my library you might think that I favor male authors. I don't. I like the science fiction genre which is largely dominated by male authors. When I'm perusing for a new book I typically won't even glance at the author's name at all. I look at the cover, read the title, read the blurb, skim a page or two and buy. The writer's name is completely an afterthought. That is unless I've just read a great book by an author and want to read other works by that same author.

When it comes to ability I don't believe that gender plays any role whatsoever. Regarding the comment about how many men vs women won the literary Nobel prizes for writing you should also note that males dominate all Nobel prizes. Females hold only about 5% of the Nobel prizes while over 12% of the literary Nobel prizes have been won by women. The Nobel prizes have been notoriously male dominated so I'd like to present a few more numbers (I like numbers). The estimated gender difference in authors is 70-80% male and 20-30% female in 2012. The gender difference in the NYC top 10 sellers list is on average 6-7 males and 3-4 females over the last year. This indicates that female authors produce the same amount, if not more, best sellers per author than males.

That being said there is a distinct difference in styles between the writing of a male and female, although I'm honestly not the person to ask about it. There are computer algorithms you can Google that can examine a piece of writing and determine the gender of the author with over 85% accuracy. These are primarily applied to blogs but I have a feeling you'll find a definitive difference in novels as well. Again, that isn't saying that one is better than the other, only that the styles are measurably different. At least measurable by a computer's standards.


----------



## Crowley K. Jarvis

It has been suggested by studies that thought processes vary between genders. Because of both genetic and environmental factors as well as dominant ways of thinking that differ in each.

I do believe for that reason, there is a _difference_ in the way a person writes. But that's just because we think differently. 

I can't say I have a preference. Each individual person still thinks and writes so differently, that it's pretty much impossible to determine how much this has been influenced by a given author's gender. 

There's simply no way of actually knowing. I just read, and if it's good, I read more, then read more by the author. I can't say I ever cared much.

Edit: That sounded awfully standoffish when I read it back to myself... I meant this more positively of course!  If you're a good writer It doesn't really matter to me. xD


----------



## escorial

my book shelfs are filled with more male than female authors....


----------



## Riptide

It's weird because I usually don't care for the author when I pick up a book off the shelve and read it. It's not until I enjoy the read I search for the name, but usually if they don't have a generic female name or male name, or even a picture, I don't know who the author is. The by line is basically huge text covering half the page that is practically larger than the title.

But, I mean, if I was searching wrong then next time I'm book shopping I'll keep gender in mind so I can preemptively decide if I'm going to like the book or not based on the authors I already enjoy.

Edit: I don't know if you caught the sarcasm. You can never tell online.


----------



## InstituteMan

Crowley K. Jarvis said:


> I do believe for that reason, there is a _difference_ in the way a person writes. But that's just because we think differently.



I just want to note that because of the immense variation in the human species, even if there is a difference in between the way an "average" woman and an "average" man thinks, there's still going to be enormous differences along a spectrum for each gender, so much so that it's impossible to predict how any particular man will compare to any particular woman. 

Take something like height. Height is pretty strongly gendered, but there are still plenty of women who are taller than some men, and no shortage of men who are shorter than many women. Just because the average woman is shorter than the average man doesn't imply that any randomly selected woman is any particular height or shorter than any given man.

Something as mushy as "how people think" is so hard to define and measure that, even if there is some objective truth to a gender based variation, the actual expression of that difference is going to be pretty useless for preemptively describing a single individual. There's just no substitute for actually getting to know a person or reading an author's work.


----------



## Guy Faukes

escorial said:


> my book shelfs are filled with more male than female authors....



Strange. I always saw you as someone who enjoyed his fair share of romance and urban fantasy novels  

Hubert Selby would always tell his male pupils "get your balls out of your writing. Write the truth. The ego isn't truth. Destroy the ego."


----------



## KellInkston

As a writer that uses a male pronoun simply for the sake of grammatical correctness, I truly love writing from both women and men and honestly have no preference- furthermore I believe both genders have equal capacity of great writing; much more important is if you have been destined for it, I feel.

Sorry to be boring.


----------



## Lydia14

I don't have a gender preference -- I adore Jane Austen and I think Philip Pullman is awesome. Gender definitely has no effect on writing ability, I think (and it better not, since I'm not published yet!  ), but from my experience it seems like men and women may have different strengths in writing about specific subjects. I did say "may," of course, because I've obviously not read everything there is to read. But, I could be wrong, and I would have no problem if that were the case.


----------



## aurora borealis

I have no preference when it comes to gender. Both men and women are capable of good writing. 

My shelves just happen to have more male-written books on them.


----------



## Schrody

Kyle R said:


> From my own reading experiences, the female writers I've encountered have demonstrated more psychological awareness (moving the story inward, to the character's emotions and psyche), whereas the male authors seem to work with a more immediate and urgent approach (moving the story forward, toward events and circumstances).
> 
> That's not a reflection of all male and female authors of course, but it's been more or less consistent with the ones I've read.



What's wrong with a deeper character development? We don't want shallow protagonists...



Cadence said:


> I read both.
> 
> What I can't stand is men that write like women, and women that write like men.



What's wrong with that?



Winston said:


> Lisa Lampanelli!
> 
> Back on track:  If more women wrote hard science fiction, instead of the squishy social-studies dramas, I'd read 'em.  Props to Mary Wollstonecraft Godwin.



There aren't a lot of female authors that write Hard Sci-Fi, or even Sci-Fi in general, but we're here! In a minority, but still here!


----------



## Thaumiel

Anyone has the capacity to be good at any task. I think the main difference in writing is the same as it is in the sciences: gender imbalance.

My year group at university for physics is very male. I reckon about 10:2 male:female ratio at a guess. Meanwhile, over in biology, things are the other way round. I'd say some genres of writing suffer a similar gender imbalance. Hence, if you read certain genres you're likely to find more good writers from a certain gender purely because that gender has produced more material.


----------



## Patrick

You have many fine male and female authors, but I do notice that there tends to be more male geniuses than female in various arts. Think of all the male composers and painters. I am sure the predominance of men in the arts, as well as the sciences, is to do with the fact men have been historically privileged. There's no doubt about that, but if you think of some of the greatest artists to ever live, they lived singularly devoted lives, being prepared to sacrifice almost everything for their art. I wonder if the terrible fury with which a man will pursue his craft is where the two sexes differ. Clearly there are women who do the same, but the number of them seems to be fewer. Just as you find great business women are outnumbered by the men. In general, do men have more of a need to "change the world"? Certainly, there aren't any intellectual disadvantages to being a woman. There are many more female authors than ever before, but the proclivity for great genius still seems to remain with the men, few though they are even within the male population.

I am curious why that is. Is it purely because there are fewer women who have the ambition? Or am I wrong? Are there just as many female geniuses?


----------



## InstituteMan

Patrick said:


> You have many fine male and female authors, but I do notice that there tends to be more male geniuses than female in various arts. Think of all the male composers and painters. I am sure the predominance of men in the arts, as well as the sciences, is to do with the fact men have been historically privileged. There's no doubt about that, but if you think of some of the greatest artists to ever live, they lived singularly devoted lives, being prepared to sacrifice almost everything for their art. I wonder if the terrible fury with which a man will pursue his craft is where the two sexes differ. Clearly there are women who do the same, but the number of them seems to be fewer. Just as you find great business women are outnumbered by the men. In general, do men have more of a need to "change the world"? Certainly, there aren't any intellectual disadvantages to being a woman. There are many more female authors than ever before, but the proclivity for great genius still seems to remain with the men, few though they are even within the male population.
> 
> I am curious why that is. Is it purely because there are fewer women who have the ambition? Or am I wrong? Are there just as many female geniuses?



Perhaps genius is gendered, but gender so profoundly changes how society perceives genius that I don't trust historical--or even contemporary--data on this one bit.


----------



## Book Cook

Patrick said:


> I am curious why that is. Is it purely because there are fewer women who have the ambition? Or am I wrong? Are there just as many female geniuses?



Let's just say that genders can be equal, but they can never be the same.


I, myself, prefer male authors. One of the many observations I've made between male and female authors is that men are _much_ better at writing about women than women are at writing about men.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Sam said:


> So far this century, ten of the thirteen winners of the Nobel Prize for Literature have been men.
> 
> Something to think about.
> 
> Edit: In fact, there have been 108 winners of the Nobel Prize for Literature, and 96 of them were male.



Don't you have the feeling that may be a bit like the lack of black Oscar winners, more to do with the judges than the writers?

Surely post George Elliot it is fairly accepted that one can not usually tell the sex of the author from the writing unless the genre gives clues?


----------



## Jack of all trades

Book Cook said:


> Let's just say that genders can be equal, but they can never be the same.
> 
> 
> I, myself, prefer male authors. One of the many observations I've made between male and female authors is that men are _much_ better at writing about women than women are at writing about men.



Are you male or female? It really doesn't matter. 

I find the judgment lacking foundation. You are either a man or a woman. That gives insight into one but not the other. Therefore you cannot know how you would feel on the subject if you were the opposite gender. And I'm discounting sex change operations, as we don't know how the brain would have developed if born the other gender. 


P.S.  I'm new, so maybe it was supposed to be sarcasm and just didn't realize it. I'm still getting to know folks here.


----------



## Sam

Olly Buckle said:


> Don't you have the feeling that may be a bit like the lack of black Oscar winners, more to do with the judges than the writers?
> 
> Surely post George Elliot it is fairly accepted that one can not usually tell the sex of the author from the writing unless the genre gives clues?



I don't think the lack of black Oscar winners has anything to do with judges. 

Seriously, can you think of one memorable black lead performance in the last twenty years that wasn't portrayed by Denzel Washington, Morgan Freeman, or Will Smith? 

People will counter with, "Oh, that's because directors won't cast black people." 

It isn't that directors won't cast black people. It's that they give the job to the person who auditions best for it. Saying that black people need to be cast more because there aren't enough black Oscar winners is like saying that we need quotas. 

No. All quotas do is give jobs to people who aren't qualified for them, based on nothing more than physiognomic and biological features.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Hi Jack ! Welcome to the forum; good point, I know plenty of men who would readily confess to not understanding women. Mind you it doesn't seem to stop  them making judgements about them


----------



## Schrody

Jack of all trades said:


> Are you male or female? It really doesn't matter.
> 
> I find the judgment lacking foundation. You are either a man or a woman. That gives insight into one but not the other. *Therefore you cannot know how you would feel on the subject if you were the opposite gender.* And I'm discounting sex change operations, as we don't know how the brain would have developed if born the other gender.
> 
> 
> P.S.  I'm new, so maybe it was supposed to be sarcasm and just didn't realize it. I'm still getting to know folks here.



You can if you're a good writer, i.e., you can from your standpoint, because, even with the gender diversity, we both still are human beings. And every human being would react the same if, say, they right were crushed, or feelings hurt. We're not that different. No, a woman can't know how does it feel to be in a man's body or how does his biological functions feels, but she doesn't need to know, as those things are trivial and  unnecessary to be a good writer, male or female.


----------



## Patrick

We do have one inherent advantage: women inspire a lot more art than men. Can you imagine it... He walks in beauty like the night of cloudless climes and starry skies, and all that's best in dark and bright meet in his aspect and his eyes. For the first time in a long time I don't want to recite Byron. Aside from the fact I am a heterosexual man, it just doesn't seem appropriate to write about masculinity in this way. 

The male poet has a big advantage. I'd also argue men are, though tempered by self-deprecating humour (particularly in Britain), more romantic than women.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Sam said:


> I don't think the lack of black Oscar winners has anything to do with judges.
> 
> Seriously, can you think of one memorable black lead performance in the last twenty years that wasn't portrayed by Denzel Washington, Morgan Freeman, or Will Smith?
> .



The New York Times' writers seem to disagree 
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/24/movies/oscars-so-white-or-oscars-so-dumb-discuss.html?_r=0
Mind you I would expect the Nobel judges to be more open minded.

I am inclined to agree with you regarding quotas, not useful, but think it is a separate issue, like 'positive discrimination'. Lose the negative discrimination and I reckon the problems would disappear.


----------



## Schrody

I hate term "positive discrimination", because it's just political correctness wrapped in pretty words. In fact, I hate political correctness. It's made up for people who can't stand the truth, and think they're so *special*. No, we shouldn't give jobs and other rights just because you have the "right" (and there isn't a right one - we're all bloody under the skin) skin, religion or sex. Men oppressed women since the dawn of man, and did we ask for a special treatment? Hell no. We just want the same rights, i.e., right to a same opportunity, and that's what everybody should have. Positive discrimination never solved a thing, and it similar to nepotism - the most qualified worker won't get a job, but the most suited will because he/she knows the right person. Now, y'all can call me a racist, at which point I will instruct you what racism really is. People should have the same opportunity from the start - if you failed, it's only your fault, and if you're not the best person for that position, you won't get that job/right even if you're a son of a God. Yeah, we're not living in utopia, but we better start acting like we do, because things won't ever change otherwise. And no, this isn't debating.


----------



## Sam

Olly Buckle said:


> The New York Times' writers seem to disagree
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/24/movies/oscars-so-white-or-oscars-so-dumb-discuss.html?_r=0
> Mind you I would expect the Nobel judges to be more open minded.
> 
> I am inclined to agree with you regarding quotas, not useful, but think it is a separate issue, like 'positive discrimination'. Lose the negative discrimination and I reckon the problems would disappear.



In the 70-year history of the National Basketball Association, only three white men have ever won the most valuable player (MVP) award for the regular season: Larry Bird, Steve Nash, and Dirk Nowitzki. 

Should we introduce new rules that benefit white men? Should the NBA draft more white players? Should the panel of sportswriters who determine the MVP award start voting for white people because of this discrepancy? 

Ask a black person those questions and they'll invariably say: "No, it should be judged on who the best player is, not the colour of their skin." 

So why, then, shouldn't the Oscars go to the actors who best deserve the gong?


----------



## Sam

Schrody said:


> Hell no. We just want the same rights, i.e., right to a same opportunity, and that's what everybody should have.



Every woman in the Western world has the same rights as men.


----------



## Schrody

Sam said:


> Every woman in the Western world has the same rights as men.









 You missed the point, Sam. I'm saying blacks (or people of other religion, etc.) shouldn't have more rights, i.e., shouldn't be influenced by the positive discrimination more than other people just because they're black and because of the slavery, just as much women shouldn't have more rights because they were oppressed by men. I'm talking about equal opportunities. Why would you employ a mediocre or average worker just because he/she is of a certain race/religion/nationality/sex, when you can employ the best?


----------



## Patrick

Sam said:


> In the 70-year history of the National Basketball Association, only three white men have ever won the most valuable player (MVP) award for the regular season: Larry Bird, Steve Nash, and Dirk Nowitzki.
> 
> Should we introduce new rules that benefit white men? Should the NBA draft more white players? Should the panel of sportswriters who determine the MVP award start voting for white people because of this discrepancy?
> 
> Ask a black person those questions and they'll invariably say: "No, it should be judged on who the best player is, not the colour of their skin."
> 
> So why, then, shouldn't the Oscars go to the actors who best deserve the gong?



It's not very popular to point out the differences between us all, but they are real. There's nothing wrong with African athletes being better than Caucasians; that's just genetics among other things. It may well be that Caucasians do some things better than Africans. Does it really matter? The problem arises not when people recognise a difference but when they stigmatise it.

It's the same thing I mentioned earlier. Men dominate high-pay positions in the work place not because there's still a prevailing prejudice against women but because men and women often have different priorities, and it may well be that men are, statistically, better at some things than women and vice versa.

I find the middle-class-white-male baiting very boring. Why should anybody of any skin colour feel guilty for doing well? Positive discrimination, so-called privilege consciousness, etc, are all the occupations of the entitled.


----------



## Book Cook

Sam said:


> Every woman in the Western world has the same rights as men.



More.


----------



## Schrody

Book Cook said:


> More.



Do you mean they have more biological rights, or rights in general?


----------



## Deleted member 56686

Kyle R said:


> Do you have a gender preference for the authors you read?
> 
> Do you think gender plays a role in writing ability?




I think this was the intent of the OP (from four years ago by the way). Is it really worth ruffling feathers over, guys? :icon_cheesygrin:


----------



## Book Cook

Schrody said:


> Do you mean they have more biological rights, or rights in general?



Why does one preclude the other?


----------



## Ariel

We will not be discussing gender equality in this thread.  I suggest we move the conversation back to _reading preferences_.


----------



## Aquilo

Book Cook said:


> One of the many observations I've made between male and female authors is that men are _much_ better at writing about women than women are at writing about men.



I edit for one of the top m/m (gay) romance companies, and I've edited both male and female award-winning writers who write from a male pov. Having also worked the slush pile, I'd say your argument is flawed. You get good and bad on both sides when it comes to expressing a male pov.


----------



## Jack of all trades

Schrody said:


> You can if you're a good writer, i.e., you can from your standpoint, because, even with the gender diversity, we both still are human beings. And every human being would react the same if, say, they right were crushed, or feelings hurt. We're not that different. No, a woman can't know how does it feel to be in a man's body or how does his biological functions feels, but she doesn't need to know, as those things are trivial and  unnecessary to be a good writer, male or female.



This is naive. We are all greatly influenced by upbringing. The lessons learned in childhood, especially early childhood, have tremendous impact on who we are as teens and adults. And boys are treated differently than girls. Let's start at birth. How many newborn girls are circumcised? 

At this point I'm walking away. You are not going to change my mind and I doubt I could change yours.


----------



## Ultraroel

I don't care. Honestly I have never even considered the difference between writers based on gender. 
I either like it or not. Gender has no real influence on it, nor can I say that I see a significant difference. 

For the emotional part, I think it's more depending on EQ and empathy, being able to write these things. 
I'm not that experienced though and perhaps others disagree


----------



## Shbooblie

I find myself almost exclusively drawn to male authors, I think I only have around 3 or 4 books on my shelves written by female authors. This is not a conscious decision on my part, I suppose it's just because of the stories that appeal to me, they tend to include darker or more masculine themes. I'm also drawn more to the male characters than I am to female characters, I don't really know why, I just always have been.

I'm a female myself and in real life, I've always made friends easier with men than women, perhaps that has something to do with it?


----------



## JustRob

I have no interest in authors, only stories. S. T. Coleridge said that the reader needs to suspend disbelief, but I take that to mean disbelief in the story. I think the reader also needs to suspend belief in the existence of the author and just accept the story on its own merits. I pay little attention to the names of authors and certainly none to their gender. Even accomplished published writers can turn out bad work and trade on their reputation just because it is their livelihood, so I just read the stories and usually forget who wrote them, if I even notice in the first place.

Is there a belief that women write differently from men? Perhaps short people write differently from tall people as well then. Their view of life is no doubt different, quite literally. Does anyone check how tall an author is before reading their work? Should we start another thread about that perhaps?


----------



## Terry D

JustRob said:


> Does anyone check how tall an author is before reading their work? Should we start another thread about that perhaps?



I much prefer the work of Henry Wadsworth Longfellow to that of Adam Small.


----------



## bookmasta

Kyle R said:


> Do you have a gender preference for the authors you read?
> 
> Do you think gender plays a role in writing ability?



No, not really. An author's skill is dictated by their skill the same as a character is their development.


----------



## oenanthe

I pretty much only read books by women. generally I get annoyed reading books written by men because of the way women are used in their stories, and it's only gotten worse over the years.


----------



## Gwynfa

Kyle R said:


> Do you have a gender preference for the authors you read?



Seriously? I really couldn't careless if the author was a man, a woman, a hermaphrodite or for that matter a six legged alien with tentacle arms that could change its sex on a whim as long as it was a _*good *_author. 

I find limiting yourself to one gender other the other is a good way to limit *your* own writing. Writers oftentimes emulate what they know. So if you only read male authors then you're going to write like every other male author & thus, in a way, about as unique as a grain of sand on the beach. 

Some of the best authors, both male & female, I've read obviously read both female & male authors at about the same ratio as they oftentimes integrate both aspects [the typical fast moving / get things done male author and the more inwards focusing female author] seamlessly. 




Kyle R said:


> Do you think gender plays a role in writing ability?



I've read male authors whose novels are nothing more than god awful, so full of gibbering rubbish that you'd wonder if he wasn't drunk or high when writing. And female authors whose books should count their 'lucky stars' if they ever happen to move off of the mouldy old shelves and not merely to make room for new books. 

On the other hand have read fantastic female authors and male authors that just can't put their books down. 

So no, don't see a difference.


----------



## Marstouria

Sam said:


> So far this century, ten of the thirteen winners of the Nobel Prize for Literature have been men.
> 
> Something to think about.
> 
> Edit: In fact, there have been 108 winners of the Nobel Prize for Literature, and 96 of them were male.



This is definitely something to think about - we really need to ask ourselves why women are so under-represented in things like this. Is it as the poster above says, because they are more likely to put themselves forward, or because judging is biased? 

Perhaps men are more likely to write the kind of books that win literary prizes because girls are discouraged from reading and writing things like that - think of the awful 'chick lit' stereotype which suggests all we want to read about is romance, beaches and shoes. 

Or perhaps even some of the winners were women, but writing under male psedonyms because they were told that if they presented themselves as women their books wouldn't sell.

The vast majority of top level orchestra players have historically been male - which you could take as 'evidence' that the best musicians are male. However, in one European country they introduced blind auditions and the gender bias was wiped out in a few seasons.


----------

