# English as a Second Language (ESL) Group



## J Anfinson (May 14, 2014)

I've started a group for ESL's. Those who could use support and those interested in helping feel free to join up.

http://www.writingforums.com/group.php?groupid=82


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## dale (May 14, 2014)

hopefully the brits will do the teaching. we americans have bastardized the language beyond proper recognition.


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## Blade (May 14, 2014)

I think this is a good idea for a group both for learners of English as a second language and the teachers as well. I have always had an interest in foreign languages but never the actual incentive or opportunity to learn one thoroughly. My closest encounter would be four years of French instruction in high school.:blue:

In any case I would thing new learners might bring in a fresh angle or unique angle on things as well as being able to explain from first hand experience how other tongues do, or don't do, things.


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## WechtleinUns (May 30, 2014)

Hm. Interesting Idea, Blade! I'm not a native speaker of Spanish, but I'm pretty much fluent in it. If anyone has any questions don't hesitate to ask!


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## blazeofglory (Mar 18, 2015)

The idea of teaching and learning English has been frequented by many and yet learning it by growing through  stacks of rules does not appeal to me. I believe in creativity. I am not a native speaker of English.  I have never gone through books of grammars or any instructive materials to update myself with the latest trend of English. I am a voracious reader and of course I have chewed a great many books in English and of course in some other languages. I know I cannot beat a native writer in English or in any other foreign languages but I nonetheless do not refrain from writing. I do it for communication but not for original publications though. That said, I have written numbers of poem and I have no acclaim when it comes to writing authentically and grammatically correct sentences in English.
I welcome and will be delighted to learn if anyone comes up with better suggestions other than memorizing bitter grammatical rules that help me improve my writings in English. Creative articles on the topic will immensely appeal to me and will help me with improving my skill as well.
I am really happy such creative ideas come up on the forum that help mainly nonnative speakers / writers


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## Arthur G. Mustard (Aug 19, 2015)

English?  A very difficult language to learn, even if you are English!  

Ah! The old red pen which obliterated many a person's work at school and destroyed creativity.


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## Justine (Sep 1, 2015)

English is my second language, but i've done it since I was like 5 at elementary school. My native language is french so I speak it everyday. I'll never be perfectly billingual. 
 This is a great idea, I'll join


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## Writer One (Oct 15, 2015)

I haven't got English as a first language yet. I was born a American and from the forties fifties and onward I have attempted to use English, I can't seem to understand anything but general writing. With this forum I have learned a little grammar and such. All of you have been extremely patience with me. I used e-mail writing for ten years and that's what I think destroyed any hope of understanding today's English. I will continue watching and learning in hopes one day I will understand today's English. Writer One


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## Aquarius (Nov 9, 2015)

I am a native German speaker and a linguist. After living fifty years in the English speaking part of our world, its language also has become my own. I love both of them equally. Should you have any questions about the German language, feel free to ask. I will do my best to help. With love - Aquarius


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## lvcabbie (Nov 9, 2015)

I think the absolute best tool to help someone learn English is Wiktionary. Here is one example using the word Today @ https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/today

It also has a Translate feature which shows what it is in a wide variety of languages.

An aside: I grew up speaking English and had lots of English classed in school. However, I did not truly learn about English until I was enrolled in a German Language course at the Defense Language Institute at the Presidio of Monterey. That taught me more about English than any other source.


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## PrinzeCharming (Jan 6, 2016)

As an ESL educator, I am looking forward to engaging with your group members. I have a background in learning Spanish, French, Mandarin Chinese, and Arabic throughout my education. I attended the University of Connecticut enrolled in Elementary Arabic and Chinese I as well as multiple French instructed courses to pursue a French minor.  Thanks for shining light on this topic.


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## dylan22 (Jan 25, 2016)

First I'm sorry to disturb, but I am a writer in my language and need of a native American-English Speaker, so I thought it's good to register here. 
It's about the following conversation:

Bryan: But they are not the same then.
Cathy: No they aren´t.

The "no" confuses me. So I ask myself what Cathy want's to say with her answer:
a) That's wrong. In my opinion they are the same.
b) I agree, They are not the same.


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## PrinzeCharming (Jan 25, 2016)

dylan22 said:


> First I'm sorry to disturb, but I am a writer in my language and need of a native American-English Speaker, so I thought it's good to register here.
> It's about the following conversation:
> 
> Bryan: But they are not the same then.
> ...



No need to apologize! We're here to help. Welcome to Writing Forums! It's a pleasure to see you already involved with the discussions. It appears to be option b, Cathy agrees that they are not the same. If she believes it's wrong, in her opinion, then Cathy would have said, "No, they _*are*_ [the same]!" Cathy would be implying they are the same. 


*Example: 
*
Bryan and Cathy are shopping at the grocery store. They want to buy apples to make a homemade apple pie. Bryan recommends that Cathy should buy one kind of apple. Cathy wants to buy more than one kind of apple. She shows Bryan McIntosh and Granny Smith apples. 

Bryan: But they are not the same.
Cathy: No, they aren't.

If Cathy showed Bryan Golden Delicious and Ginger Gold apples, they might appear the same to her. 

Bryan: But they are not the same. 
Cathy: No, they are! / No, they are (the same)!


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## dylan22 (Jan 29, 2016)

Thx 
Just to make sure I understand the opening statement of Bryan correct:
The words "but" and "then" in his sentence "but they are not the same then" don't change the meaning so:
"but they are not the same then." = "they are not the same.", correct?


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## PrinzeCharming (Jan 29, 2016)

dylan22 said:


> Thx
> Just to make sure I understand the opening statement of Bryan correct:
> The words "but" and "then" in his sentence "but they are not the same then" don't change the meaning so:
> "*but* they are not the same *then*." = "they are not the same.", correct?



Yes, *but *is a *coordinating conjunction, *like *and*, *but*, *or, yet, for, nor *and *so. *

*Then *is a *conjunction*.

*But *and *then *are _not _needed.

The sentence reads the same without them.


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## dylan22 (Jan 29, 2016)

Thx, so all in all we can say that both (Bryan and Cathy) think they are not the same, correct?


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## PrinzeCharming (Jan 29, 2016)

Exactly.  Cathy *agrees* with Bryan. 

"But they are not the same." 

"Yes, you are right, they're not the same."
"Yes,  you are right,  they're different."

Works the same as:

"No, they aren't."
"No, they're not the same ."
"No, they're different."
"No, they are different."
"No, you're right,  they are different."


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## dylan22 (Jan 30, 2016)

Thx, just one question (not that we speak about different things, cause "they" in my last question could also meant themselves): 
Both (Bryan and Cathy) agree that the things they are talking about are not the same?


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## dylan22 (Feb 3, 2016)

?


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## PrinzeCharming (Feb 3, 2016)

dylan22 said:


> Thx, just one question (not that we speak about different things, cause "they" in my last question could also meant themselves):
> Both (Bryan and Cathy) agree that the things they are talking about are not the same?



Yes, exactly, they both agree that the things they are talking about are not the same.


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## Book Cook (Feb 4, 2016)

blazeofglory said:


> I know I cannot beat a native writer in English or in any other foreign languages



Why do you think so? Joseph Conrad succeeded.


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## dylan22 (Feb 6, 2016)

Thank you for your friendly answers.  It helped me a lot. I am somehow a little bit unsure, if this all fits for the whole conversation:

Bryan: Is that an old photo of your friend?
Cathy: No, I don't think so.
Bryan: Okay, I always need to think about that person on the picture,  who I thought was your friend. But they are not the same then.
Cathy: No they aren't.


If you see the whole conversation, is Cathys last answer "No they aren't." = "No, I agree, they are not the same."?


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## PrinzeCharming (Feb 6, 2016)

dylan22 said:


> Thank you for your friendly answers.  It helped me a lot. I am somehow a little bit unsure, if this all fits for the whole conversation:
> 
> Bryan: Is that an old photo of your friend?
> Cathy: No, I don't think so. (This implies two things. (a) It's not an old photo of Cathy's friend. It was recently taken. (b) It's not Cathy's friend.)
> ...



Yes, exactly. Cathy agrees that the *people *in question are not the *same person*.


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## Greimour (Feb 7, 2016)

PrinzeCharming said:


> dylan22 said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you for your friendly answers. :smile: It helped me a lot. I am somehow a little bit unsure, if this all fits for the whole conversation:
> ...




Hmm. Not quite right there on your response, mate. <3




> *Bryan:* Is that an old photo of your friend?
> *Cathy:* No, I don't think so.
> _(This implies that she is not sure if they are the same person or not. If she knows the person in the picture is not her friend, then the answer is a straight no. If she isn't sure, then her answer "No, I don't think so." would be accurate.)
> _
> ...



Prinze, you said: "No they aren't the same people". That is wrong. It would still be "No they aren't the same person."

It is still one person being mistaken for another person. A single mistaken for a single. 

Not the same _people_ would be an instance where two different groups of people are mistaken for each other. Not a single person mistaken for another person.

Example:

Group A is a bunch of free runners.
Group B is a bunch of graffiti artists.

*Bob: *"I thought Group A was that group of graffiti artists that decorated the school last year..."

*Michelle:* "No, they aren't the same people. It was group B that decorated the school. Group A is a parkour group that hang around on Central Park."

See the difference? :/


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## PrinzeCharming (Feb 7, 2016)

Wow, over *one* word! Sorry. Yes, that's what I *meant*. Disregard. I understand what just happened. It's not my personal way of explaining things, especially that late. At that hour, I was busy doing a lot of stuff and fell short on the value of my advice. Human error. _*Merde. *_Time to wear the dunce cap.

 :stupid:](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)


*Edit: 
*
By the way, if you notice, I wasn't following with my *own *advice. You even quoted the proof! One minute I said person (correctly) and then said people. That was perhaps the moment of distraction.


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## Greimour (Feb 7, 2016)

Haha, don't worry about it. We all make mistakes. I have made more than my fair share of blunders.


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## PrinzeCharming (Feb 7, 2016)

Greimour said:


> Haha, don't worry about it. We all make mistakes. I have made more than my fair share of blunders.




Trust me. I take this personally because I've been doing a lot of beta reading plus third shift positions at work. I am drained out to the point where my whole body is in combative mode just to save myself from vulnerability.


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## Greimour (Feb 7, 2016)

That kind of stress won't be good for you. And there is no need to take it personally either. 

In the words of Coach Ladouceur: We’re not asking you to be perfect on every play.  What we’re asking of  you, and what you should be asking of each other, is to give a perfect  effort from snap to whistle.


In other words; don't stress if you occasionally drop the ball. 

Imagine if we were all perfect, what kind of boring world would that be? o.0

I too have done some Beta reading. I have done some proof reading too. Quite a lot of proof reading actually. So then, why did I find the need to get my own proof reader for my own work? Surely if I am able to be a proof reader for others, then I am capable of proofing my own work, right?

Obviously not. 

I have also spent a decent amount of time mentoring people, but that does not stop me from seeking advice from others. I wouldn't even claim to be qualified to mentor people, and yet, I have quite a few friends and acquaintances that thank me for the time and effort I gave them. I have even been credited a thanks by them in their works, which made me as proud as punch. For them though, not myself.

I am far from perfect and I do, on occasion, drop the ball. I don't take it personally though. As writers, we must have thick skin and unwavering hearts. When mistakes are made, just acknowledge them, learn from them and move on.  


Take care of your health man. Try not to overwork yourself. 

All the best. <3


P.S. I did notice that you first did it correctly and then incorrectly. Which was a surprise.

The reason I decided to go full quote on the reply though, was to make sure dylan22 wasn't left confused. Although you only made a small mistake, it could have been a much bigger problem if others had their learning affected by it.


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## dylan22 (Feb 7, 2016)

Okay thank you very much for your answers. Just to be 100% safe now, one last question:

Bryan: Is that an old photo of your friend?
Cathy: No, I don't think so.
Bryan: Okay, I always need to think about that person on the picture,   who I thought was your friend. But they are not the same then.
Cathy: No they aren't.

Cathy´s last statement "No they aren´t" = "No, I agree, they aren't the same person", correct?


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## Greimour (Feb 7, 2016)

dylan22 said:


> Cathy´s last statement "No they aren't" = "No, I agree, they aren't the same person", correct?



Cathy´s last statement "No they aren't" = "They aren't the same person"

Correct.

*
Quick Notes:*

Bryan in the sentence earlier should be ended with a question mark.

Bryan: Okay, I always need to think about that person on the picture,    who I thought was your friend. But they are not the same then?

Also, it is in the picture. Not on the picture. Unless there is a person standing on top of the picture. And finally, Okay is just OK. Okay is still alright, but I personally wouldn't use it. 

Not sure you should include "need to" either:

Bryan: "OK, I always think about that person in the picture.    I thought it was your friend. Are they are not the same person then?"

Cathy: "No, they aren't."

^ Take note of the apostrophe after the word 'No'.


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## dylan22 (Feb 7, 2016)

Greimour said:


> Cathy´s last statement "No they aren't" = "They aren't the same person"
> 
> Correct.



Thank you (also for your other quick notes), but does it mean something you left out the "I agree"?

Cause I wrote Cathy's statement "No they aren't" has the same meaning as:
 "No, I agree, they aren't the same person", correct?


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## Greimour (Feb 10, 2016)

dylan22 said:


> Thank you (also for your other quick notes), but does it mean something you left out the "I agree"?
> 
> Cause I wrote Cathy's statement "No they aren't" has the same meaning as:
> "No, I agree, they aren't the same person", correct?



Just read your private message. My bad, I wasn't specific enough with my answer.

I am not 100% sure how you mean with the "I agree" bit.

1: I am not sure, but I agree that they are not the same person.
2: You were wrong, they aren't the same person at all.
3: Whatever you were thinking before, they are not the same person. 

Ultimately, the conversation is saying that her friend and the person in the picture are not the same person.

###
*
Bryan:* "So they aren't the same person?"

*Cathy:* "No, they aren't."

"No they aren't" is self explanatory in that statement. In full, it would mean: _My friend and the person in that picture are two different people. They are not the same person.
_


No matter what other intentions you were trying to get across, that is what it says.

Expanding on the full conversation:

Bryan: Is that an old photo of your friend?
Cathy: No, I don't think so.
— She doesn't actually know the answer? If not, then her next response might need to change.
Bryan: Okay, I always need to think about that person on the picture,   who I thought was your friend. But they are not the same then.
Cathy: No they aren't.
—So she doesn't actually know if they are the same person or not? Or does she?

Version 1:

Bryan: Is that an old photo of your friend?
Cathy: No, I don't think so.
Bryan: Oh, I always thought it was. They are not the same then?
Cathy: ... I just said _'I don't think so'_, so obviously I don't know. I am pretty sure they aren't the same person.


Version 2:

Bryan: Is that an old photo of your friend?
Cathy: No.
Bryan: Okay, I was always thinking the person in the picture was your friend. Are they are not the same then?
Cathy: No, they aren't. 



If you don't think you have expressed what you intended to, then change the words. 

Hope this helps.


~Kev.


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## dylan22 (Feb 19, 2016)

Thank you 

What about this?

Bryan: Is that an old photo of your friend?
Cathy: No.
Bryan: Okay, I always need to think about that person on the picture,    who I thought was your friend. But they are not the same then.
Cathy: No they aren't.

In this conversation Cathy's last statement "No they aren't." has the meaning:  "My friend and the person in that picture are two different people. They are not the same person.", correct?


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## Greimour (Feb 20, 2016)

dylan22 said:


> Thank you
> 
> What about this?
> 
> ...



correct


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## Radrook (Feb 28, 2016)

I clicked the joining up icon and was sent here:
http://www.coupons.com/coupons/?pid...nText_20160201&CRID=ci300j_pink_gmi&varb=JOIN


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## Yumi Koizumi (Feb 28, 2016)

*ESL? Couldn't resist...*


​


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## lvcabbie (Mar 4, 2016)

Just thought I throw something in here. There is far more to learning a second language than just the words and grammar. Without understand the culture and ethos, it's just a dry exercise.

Of all the resources writer's have, I really like Wiktionary as it gives the history of the word.


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## PrinzeCharming (Mar 4, 2016)

lvcabbie said:


> Just thought I throw something in here. There is far more to learning a second language than just the words and grammar. Without understand the culture and ethos, it's just a dry exercise.



You're absolutely right! I read an article about a student learning Spanish. He visited Spain, met a girl, and asked her out on a date. She said she can't go out because she has to watch her siblings. He requested to hire a babysitter. She thought this was offensive to have a _stranger _watch _her family_. He knew the language, but he wasn't familiar with the culture.


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## lvcabbie (Mar 6, 2016)

I think a great way to understand a language is to read its humor/jokes.


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## PrinzeCharming (Mar 6, 2016)

lvcabbie said:


> I think a great way to understand a language is to read its humor/jokes.



Yes! When I was volunteering with the University of Connecticut American English Language Institute (UCAELI), I enjoyed diving into puns, double entendres, and innuendos. The class loved it as well. So, I took this experience and brought it with me when I was teaching a high school ESL class.


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## Reichelina (Mar 13, 2016)

PrinzeCharming said:


> Exactly.  Cathy *agrees* with Bryan.
> 
> "But they are not the same."
> 
> ...



This won't be an issue if Cathy and Brian just agreed! 
Men and women always have to argue, eh? Hahahaha.


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## PrinzeCharming (Mar 13, 2016)

Reichelina said:


> This won't be an issue if Cathy and Brian just agreed!
> Men and women always have to argue, eh? Hahahaha.



Yeah, exactly! 

_[See. That was easy.] 
_


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## Makili (May 23, 2016)

I am not a native English speaker, but decided to write in English, because it is easier for me to express some of my thoughts (and especially emotions) in English. I feel like the  foreignness of the  language provides some kind of a distance and objectivity, which makes writing easier. 

Anyone feels the same/similar?


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## dylan22 (Nov 9, 2016)

double post, Sorry


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## dylan22 (Nov 9, 2016)

Another grammar question:
Is this conversation correct?

A: For a while I thought Jeff and Dean are the same person. But they are not the same then.
B: Yes, they are. They are two different boys.


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## Yumi Koizumi (Nov 9, 2016)

dylan22 said:


> Another grammar question:
> Is this conversation correct?
> 
> A: For a while I thought Jeff and Dean are the same person. But they are not the same then.
> B: Yes, they are. They are two different boys.



(trying to figure out the context, so this will be off...)

I might write:
A: For a while, I thought Jeff and Dean were the same person. But they are not the same then?
B: Yes, they are not the same. They are two different boys.

I'm no English major (by a LONG shot), but I would be OK using any of these variations:

A: For a while there, I thought Jeff and Dean were actually the same person. But now you're telling me they are two different boys?
A: For a while there, I thought that Jeff and Dean were actually the same person. But now you're telling me they are two different boys?
A: For a while there, I thought Jeff and Dean were actually the same person. But now you're telling me they are two separate boys?
A: For a while there, I thought that Jeff and Dean were actually the same person. But now you're telling me they are two separate boys?
A: For a while, I thought...
[my fav]
A: All this time, I thought I thought that Jeff and Dean were the same person. Now you're telling me they aren't?
B: Yes.

Sorry I didn't have one answer...  I guess your character will tell you which sounds like what they would really say (proper, casual, informal, intimate, etc.) Now that I've said that, maybe having your character say each (with the parts before & after) will let you find one they (and you) are comfortable with.

I seldom speak with people in perfect English. I appreciate dialogue that is in line with the character's background, the situation they are in, and how they know the person they are talking to/with-even if narration/noir. 

Make sense?!


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## Yumi Koizumi (Nov 9, 2016)

Makili said:


> I am not a native English speaker, but decided to write in English, because it is easier for me to express some of my thoughts (and especially emotions) in English. I feel like the  foreignness of the  language provides some kind of a distance and objectivity, which makes writing easier.
> 
> Anyone feels the same/similar?



Honestly, I wish English had more words. I go to a therapist for public speaking & writing a few times/month, and they are always asking me to not narrate for the personality part, but let the part (of me) speak for itself, like in first person. That is strange to do!

"I am a bad felling inside Yumi, and I make her feel bad because it helps her _____". _Yikes! _It is very similar to talking in a character's voice, and being forced _not_ to narrate, or speak _for_ the part.

I say this because my 'parts' are communicating in feelings/emotions, and seldom with words or sentences. So I have to struggle to find the right way to express the feeling/emotion. Like someone asking how you are, and you answering, "I feel light purple with a hard surface but vaguely attentive!". What?!

So I am surprised when you say English offers you that range. You write very fluently in English, which makes me wonder what your primary language is!


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## dylan22 (Nov 10, 2016)

Thank you so much, but is this also possible?
A: For a while I thought Jeff and Dean are the same person. But they are not the same then.
B: Yes, they are. They are two different boys.


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## Yumi Koizumi (Nov 10, 2016)

dylan22 said:


> Thank you so much, but is this also possible?
> A: For a while I thought Jeff and Dean are the same person.



The problem I have with this is that at the time in the sentence, the speaker is talking about the 'past', so "were" (which is like 'used to be') sounds better than "are", which sounds like the present. Consider:

You were there.
Now you are here.

Right? 

They were funny as kids.
They are not so funny now.

Does this make sense, or with so little to go by, am I missing the situation? Try the tricks above, saying things in your character's voice out loud. Which feels more natural to the character?


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## dylan22 (Nov 11, 2016)

Yes, thank you. I changed it to "were". Is this correct now? 

A: For a while I thought Jeff and Dean were the same person. But they are not the same then.
B: Yes, they are. They are two different boys.


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## Yumi Koizumi (Nov 11, 2016)

dylan22, 

Like I said before, you need to decide what sounds natural for your character. You are only giving 2 lines of a larger dialogue. English is very flexible in the way it lets you say the same thing, but writing is tolerant of grammatical mistakes if it is _in character_ to do so.

So without this vital information, it is tough to give you yes/no answers... For example, is "A" a question, or a statement? If you look at some of my guesses in earlier responses, you will see how I posed it as a statement or a question, and how that changes things.

I can see "A" as a question (ending with a "?"), or as a statement in an argument (ending with a period "."), depending on context. You are very close, but I'm going to stay a broken record about this not being enough information to give you a more precise answer. Please consider doing as I suggested earlier, and asking yourself which of many possibilities _works_ for your story, and more importantly, your unique _character_.



dylan22 said:


> Yes, thank you. I changed it to "were". Is this correct now?
> 
> A: For a while I thought Jeff and Dean were the same person. But they are not the same then.
> B: Yes, they are. They are two different boys.


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## dylan22 (Nov 21, 2016)

Thank you. I was just confused that someone told me "Yes they are" would have a different meaning and it doesn't fit there. But you say that I can say "Yes, they are. They are two different boys."?


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## dylan22 (Dec 15, 2016)

deleted


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## dylan22 (Dec 15, 2016)

Hey, I reread it all again and have a question to this sentence:



Yumi Koizumi said:


> English is very flexible in the way it lets  you say the same thing, but writing is tolerant of grammatical mistakes  if it is _in character_ to do so.


Is "but" ins this sentence correct? Cause I think the sentence has the  following meaning: "English is very flexible in the way it lets you say  the same thing, and writing is even more flexible, because it is tolerant of  grammatical mistakes if it is _in character_ to do so." 

So why did you use "but" instead of "and"? 
Thank you in advance


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## Theglasshouse (Feb 17, 2017)

I am currently trying to get my hands on this grammar book used for homeschooling. It's called the Stewart English program by Donald S. Stewart (who believes in the "cumulative sentence" from the Iowa creative writing program). It's suitable for people in college and in high school. It's a tad expensive if bought all together with the English manuals for me. But since I am a tad bit older that the high school students who use it, it could become handy. I don't have it yet (but could order it because of my needs), and wish it was available electronically. For those interested in writing in English it seems perfect since it integrates creative writing composition according to my research. It's written for the cumulative sentence which I will use for writing the correct grammar for longer sentences and short sentences. I know that shorter sentences are what I will write because that is the accepted advice. But I think it is useful because you can vary the kinds of sentences, it covers description, expository and paragraph. I plan to subscribe to a grammar software program anyways. But this is the kind of book that I have been looking for if it can perfect my grammar skills. Especially since it has to do with creative writing. I can write dialogue fairly well, but when I write expository or description I tend to falter. The link I am sharing for those curious. I'll put a review once I finish the books or receive them. They may be boring to learn with supposedly. But I searched for reviews. It's not popular as say a paperback novel to be reviewed by a lot of people. The last book of the series has 5 stars on Goodreads. Which is the best possible review since that book is where it explains creative writing composition and what seems to be explained in easy to understand words and is jargon-free. I like the fact that if I could get to learn sentence structure I could vary my sentences. The theory used here was used in the Iowa program in a book titled,"Building Great Sentences," by Brooks Landon. It must be worth the money and effort to study the Stewart English program since you need no prerequisite knowledge. I have the one by Brooks Landon but it is full of jargon, I hope if I learn the Stewart English program my sentence structure and syntax will improve. This is something I picked up on, by accidently buying a book that recommended it for prose writing strategies. So I want to become aware on how to write sentences and choosing how to construct it.

It has a workbook included in each book though you have to buy the teacher's answer key and manual (the manual has the answers).

https://www.rainbowresource.com/pro...g/7&category=The+Stewart+English+Program/1807


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## walker (Feb 17, 2017)

Dylan, you might be right that "and" is a better word choice, technically. But as a native English speaker, I had no problems with the sentence as written. 

I confess that I probably would have changed "but" to "and" myself! But I'd like to make a case it doesn't matter much.

People argue about grammar because it's not a settled science. Much of what you hear is opinion. When people say they know the answer to a grammatical question, what they really mean is they've accepted the advice of a certain authority and think you should accept that authority too. But if the sentence is intelligible, then the grammar works. 

Of course, if you are too loosey-goosey, it will grate on people's ears, so it is good to meet norms. And if you are writing for a newspaper that uses Style Guide X, then refer to Style Guide X, no questions asked.

But there is danger in paying too much attention to the rules of grammar, especially in fiction. Your writing may become rigid and inflexible. And your_ voice_ (or the voice of your characters) may suffer. 

Imagine a lawyer who is something of a barfly. He writes a technical brief for an important case in one voice, jokes with friends in the bar in another voice, yells improprieties from the stands at a football game in another voice, and so on. If you give the lawyer a grammatically correct, excessively academic, "legal" voice everywhere in your book, it sounds inauthentic. 

Or you write about a bank robber. Does she use the same voice when a) talking to the police officer who pulled her over, b) planning a bank robbery with her buddies, c) hitting on a pretty girl or handsome boy at the coffee shop, d) mad at her significant other, e) making up with her significant other, f) appealing to the judge to not give her life in prison, g) criticizing the judge to her cellmates in prison, and so on? Does she use correct grammar at all times? Does the author, writing about her in the third person, even outside of dialogue, always use "and" where it is more appropriate than "but," even if the voice sounds off?

If I were to watch "Working Girl," and Tess used the excruciatingly correct grammar and vocabulary of a lawyer writing a technical brief as the voice of her character in the movie, I would turn the darn thing off! It would just be awful. Yet could I criticize grammar like that from a technical standpoint? No.

Grammarians are experts, and like all experts, they know more and more about less and less. Listen to them, but make sure you see the forest, not only the trees.

A good rule of thumb? If somebody tells you they don't understand what you wrote, find out why. If not, don't go looking for problems. Best.


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## Theglasshouse (Feb 17, 2017)

I wish I could get a doctor to read my work. I imagine one day it will be possible. None in hospitals are qualified to do so because I live in a non-english speaking country. Hence it becomes tedious to find a doctor. I depend all on my father's income, my mom doesn't work. My dad is complex, and so is the situation in my family, which my mother doesn't even have money for herself. It sounds like a dysfunctional family. Because of lack of money, I only rely on what they give me since I can't work. It's not a lot because my family is big. We live in a country where salary and income are low. I can't earn the money myself since I need to go back to college. I was originally going to work there but found too much prejudice because of my mental conditions. The law does not protect people such as disabled. So it's complex. My income I use for my hobbies. I think if after I finish solving some health issues, and going to the doctor for health conditions I could see such a doctor, or professional.

Right now I think learning grammar from the basics is a less direct approach to solving the problem. But everything costs money. I even want to get a microphone since my other one broke (blue yeti no longer works). But I am on a budget each month. When my family's expenses ease up a bit I could find myself telling my family to pay money to publish an ad in the newspaper, to get someone. It's a lot more practical than finding the best professionals in the country. LinkedIn lists their contact information for 100 dollars a month no trial as a member.

I have limited choices, I can make them (my family as a whole) promise to do help me with this, and be active in this, and tell them its a big part of what makes me think writing is an important hobby. It relaxes me to read.

I could always ask my doctor who is a member of LinkedIn. But that won't be until I see that doctor who knows I am healthy and so booking an appointment might seem pointless. Or even asking the question to him to do me the favor.

So that is me summarizing my issues.That and my doctor does not think I have autism but other American doctors have told me so. It's more some neural damage that anything else. If that is the case, I read a book a long time ago that was for struggling writers. Thinking it would solve my problems or have more answers than problems the book cost 300 dollars. It said something obvious as advice for struggling writers. That they need to be conscientious of the rules of the language. That way they spend less time correcting a work and spend less time taxing their memory of their writing process. I stand by that explanation that it could help people who have some memory problems while writing in some way shape or form.


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## dylan22 (Feb 26, 2017)

.


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## dylan22 (Feb 26, 2017)

walker said:


> Dylan, you might be right that "and" is a better  word choice, technically. But as a native English speaker, I had no  problems with the sentence as written.
> 
> I confess that I probably would have changed "but" to "and" myself! But I'd like to make a case it doesn't matter much.



Thank you very much for you help, but which sentence do you talk about?




walker said:


> Does the author, writing  about her in the third  person, even outside of dialogue, always use  "and" where it is more  appropriate than "but," even if the voice sounds  off?


What does that mean?


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## dylan22 (Mar 29, 2017)

Greimour said:


> Bryan: Is that an old photo of your friend?
> Cathy: No, I don't think so.
> — She doesn't actually know the answer? If not, then her next response might need to change.
> Bryan: Okay, I always need to think about that person on the picture,   who I thought was your friend. But they are not the same then.
> ...


What is the meaning of your comment "She doesn't actually know the answer? If not, then her next response might need to change."? The "If not" part is confusing me.

So what's the meaning?
- She doesn't actually know the answer? If she does actually know the answer, then her next response might need to change.
- She doesn't actually know the answer? If she doesn't actually know the answer, then her next response might need to change.


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## dylan22 (Mar 29, 2017)

Greimour said:


> Bryan: Is that an old photo of your friend?
> Cathy: No, I don't think so.
> — She doesn't actually know the answer? If not, then her next response might need to change.


This is the comment I am talking about.


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## Theglasshouse (Apr 14, 2017)

Found a much cheaper alternative (to the out of print Warriner's book though I ordered half the set since it was expensive and 1000 pages of text is a lot for me for reading and to process, it's perfect to pass an English exam though like the praxis for teachers) and the series doesn't seem bad and can buy in in one purchase. Look at the features below, the book seems to have my problems areas described. It may be for high school middle school remedial composition specifically for writing stories. A big complaint about my writing was that it was chronologically out of sequence. Which affects the flow a lot, that the nouns are not concrete enough, that I need to answer the 5 w questions. I think this is the best place to post it since ESL students might have difficulties and need remedial instruction in how to narrate stories. (these were the complaints of readers in my story: the many lives I have lived.)
(in the workshop, not to mention I plan to get that software. But need to apply this first anyways. (it helps inspire people with composition skills).

Also as noted eats shoots and leaves and elements of style, I will apply regardless what I am doing.


> Quoted from Amazon.
> Traditional principles. Contemporary methods. Unparalleled results.
> This groundbreaking new writing series combines time-tested classical techniques―the imitation and analysis of great writers―with original composition exercises in history, science, biography, and literature.
> 
> ...


.
It's homeschooling program so it is supposed to be user-friendly.




This book helps with prose and how to find concrete nouns, action verbs etc like the one before but no focus on composition. It does cover improvisation which is what I like. Of dialogue which is covered.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1933339578/?tag=writingforu06-20


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## dylan22 (Apr 16, 2017)

Can someone please help me? 



Greimour said:


> Bryan: Is that an old photo of your friend?
> Cathy: No, I don't think so.
> — She doesn't actually know the answer? If not, then her next response might need to change.
> Bryan: Okay, I always need to think about that person on the picture,   who I thought was your friend. But they are not the same then.
> ...



What is the meaning of your comment "She doesn't actually know the  answer? If not, then her next response might need to change."? The "If  not" part is confusing me.

So what's the meaning?
- She doesn't actually know the answer? If she does actually know the answer, then her next response might need to change.
- She doesn't actually know the answer? If she doesn't actually know the answer, then her next response might need to change.


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## dylan22 (Apr 17, 2017)

And these were my other questions, that are still unanswered. :/ Can anybody help me?



walker said:


> Dylan, you might be right that "and" is a better   word choice, technically. But as a native English speaker, I had no   problems with the sentence as written.
> 
> I confess that I probably would have changed "but" to "and" myself! But I'd like to make a case it doesn't matter much.



Thank you very much for you help, but which sentence do you talk about?




walker said:


> Does the author, writing  about her in the third   person, even outside of dialogue, always use  "and" where it is more   appropriate than "but," even if the voice sounds  off?


What does that mean?


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## dylan22 (Apr 18, 2017)

Theglasshouse said:


> Found a much cheaper alternative (to the out of print Warriner's book though I ordered half the set since it was expensive and 1000 pages of text is a lot for me for reading and to process, it's perfect to pass an English exam though like the praxis for teachers)



Where/in which thread was the Warriner's book recommended to you? I can't find it.


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## dylan22 (Apr 18, 2017)

Theglasshouse said:


> I wish I could get a doctor to read my work.


What sort of doctor are you looking for? A medicine doctor?


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## urbandekay (Aug 19, 2017)

dale said:


> hopefully the brits will do the teaching. we americans have bastardized the language beyond proper recognition.



At the risk of immodesty, I have to concur! I am a qualified teacher of ESL if anyone needs help and a native British Language speaker


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## Kevin (Aug 19, 2017)

Blewdy-helhr...Our bastardized version is no greater or lesser in ratio of modifications to that of the island's except in size ratio, in which case our majority mob rules.


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## Sebald (Aug 19, 2017)

Kevin said:


> Blewdy-helhr...Our bastardized version is no greater or lesser in ratio of modifications to that of the island's except in size ratio, in which case our majority mob rules.



Blewdy-helhr ha ha. Who the bluddy el talks like that?


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## lvcabbie (Aug 19, 2017)

urbandekay said:


> At the risk of immodesty, I have to concur! I am a qualified teacher of ESL if anyone needs help and a native British Language speaker



Ah yes then, you DO speak English as a second language.  :teapot:


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