# Starting out



## Mish (Jun 12, 2019)

Hi Everyone,

I am an amateur science fiction, short story writer and I am pretty new to the publishing game. I'm interested in your advice on best strategy a new writer should adopt in today's writing market to become successful. I am interested in answering questions below:

- What strategy should a new writer adopt in today's market?
- What platforms are best to use? (for critique/review, editing, publishing, self-publishing, marketing, publicity etc.)
- Which people should be influenced?
- What is the best way to grow the amount of readers and a following?
- Focus on publication of short stories in various publications, (higher volume) which can later be published as a collection or focus instead on novels? (higher quality, lower volume) 

I am looking forward to your feedback!

Mish


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## luckyscars (Jun 12, 2019)

Hi!

- What strategy should a new writer adopt in today's market?

No idea what this means, sorry...

- What platforms are best to use? (for critique/review, editing, publishing, self-publishing, marketing, publicity etc.)

Not sure on this either. If you're asking for a binary choice between publishing and self-publishing, I am traditionally publishing at the moment, I'd say the majority of published people on here are probably self-published. Both have advantages and disadvantages. If you'd like to know what those are, maybe start a thread on it or head to the Publishing Discussion forum.

- Which people should be influenced?

Readers, ideally.

- What is the best way to grow the amount of readers and a following?

Write a lot and submit a lot maintaining high productivity (one new novel a year or 12-15 short stories I would consider productive)

- Focus on publication of short stories in various publications, (higher volume) which can later be published as a collection or focus instead on novels? (higher quality, lower volume) 

I think every novelist should start writing short-stories. Some disagree, that's their business, but there are numerous skills that starting and finishing stories in rapid succession facilities development of, as opposed to laboring over a single novel for eons. Don't bother with collections, nobody will care, but publish short stories as much as you can, get your name out there, gain that experience and confidence, then maybe think about novels.


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## JustRob (Jun 12, 2019)

Hi Mish. I am, as my title states, truly an erratic here. That's using the term "erratic" in the geological sense of a stone that's rolled up in the wrong place. so any advice that I give is equally based on very little. Very late in life my writing "career" consisted of writing one short story in a matter of hours and then later basing an entire novel on it. Having realised that the novel was itself just the first of a trilogy I decided that my remaining life was probably too short and too busy for such an enterprise and abandoned the whole work, even though I consider that the fascinating story line would have been worth the effort had I been younger. This then is clearly not a well structured approach to a writing career. Perhaps there is something to learn from it though.

Luckyscars has set out some advice from his better perspective, but maybe I should address some of the more fundamental aspects. 

For a start, as i have indicated, becoming successfully published is most likely a long process, so you must be sure that you can devote the necessary time to it. As Luckyscars mentioned, you should primarily be aiming to influence your end readers, but even before doing that you should aim to influence your alpha reader, i.e. yourself. I have read my novel many times and each time have found more to like about it. It is alleged that novice writers later realise how bad their early works were, but while my writing style may have been a little naive I have never found fault with my original story line and still find remarkable nuances within it. Of course, it is difficult to form an unbiased opinion of one's own work alone, so making it available somewhere like here for critical examination is likely to help you form a more accurate and realistic opinion of yourself as a writer. My angel wife and I both beta read full length works by members here and we are sad when one has clearly put a lot of effort into such a thing but it hasn't had much impact on us and may be difficult to save. Therefore writing short stories certainly makes sense to get any problems with your style sorted out before you devote valuable time to anything longer. 

I always wonder why someone decides that they want to write fiction. In my case it took years for me to understand why I did it and the answer was almost unbelievable, indeed remains unbelievable to most people, but that's by the way. How then do you personally gauge success? Is your primary aim to earn money, to be recognised in society or just to share your imaginings with others because you feel that they are worth sharing regardless of any payback? Writing fiction is the solution to a problem, but what is the problem that you are trying to solve by doing it? Being clear in your own mind on that will assist you in deciding how best to tackle the task and succeed by your own criterion of success. Traditional publication and self-publication can be seen as different solutions matched to different criteria of success. The traditional approach may place more obstacles in your way but overcoming them may itself be essential to your perception of success, while self-publication may be easier but not give you the same feeling that you have achieved what you set out to do. If acquiring income is your objective then no doubt other members can advise you on the overall hourly return that a writer can expect to receive for their efforts in their early years. In my case it's well below zero, but then financial reward was never an objective for me.

Publication is only half the battle anyway. The key element is promotion. I suspect that many people who casually take to writing are, like myself, not particularly concerned with self-promotion, indeed are even reclusive, writing being a reclusive activity in itself. Having written my novel I had no desire to promote it any more than I desire to promote myself, so even self-publication was unlikely to achieve much. I actually made it available for free download on my own website, just to make it easily accessible to anyone who happened to find out about it, but I have never actively promoted it and don't even subscribe to any of the popular social sites where writers are advised to promote their works, that not being in my nature. Again my social activity here is for a very specific reason and not typical of my character. So, how does one go about promoting one's work if one has no interest in also promoting oneself? Clearly you have to be clear on your reasons for writing to decide how you tackle this side of the task.

When I sent an extract from my novel to a professional assessment service for comments (one of the reasons why my net income from my writing is a negative figure) one of the comments that I received was that I should write about something else, the reader having entirely missed the point of the story from their brief examination of it. I explained that I didn't want to become a writer writing whatever might please the readership as such, but that I had one solitary story that I felt deserved to be told and that I was endeavouring to do that and only that. If the story really didn't merit the telling then I didn't need to write anything at all and could get on with my real life. Once again how one goes about things boils down to one factor, why one is writing; that is why one is writing anything at all and why any particular work as well.

So, you are asking us how to become successful but for us to answer that fully we need to understand what motivates you to write and how you measure success, because those things certainly aren't the same for everyone. We aim to help each member achieve whatever it is that they want to, but to do that we need to understand where you are coming from, to use an expression with which I have never felt comfortable. So tell us why you are doing it and perhaps we can more clearly tell you how.

So, welcome to WF and hopefully we can help you and indeed in return perhaps you can help others here as well.


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## Aquilo (Jun 12, 2019)

Hi, Mish. Nice to meet you.



> - What strategy should a new writer adopt in today's market?



1 Research your market: read other novels in your genre, check out publisher websites and their 'submissions' page, see what novels they produce. 
2 Write, edit, edit some more, get the work beta read. 
3 If you're going the trade route: submit your work, then focus on another project.
4 If you're self-publishing: look for an editor in the genre, go with a very decent cover artist, find a formatter. Also, research which distribution outlets you want to use. Amazon etc.
5 Be active on social media: don't always promote your work. You're looking to build relations, not give people a hard sell.
6 If you get accepted for publication or you're ready to self-pub: look at an author website, but go for one that's free, like with WordPress.
7 Research reviewing blogs in your genre.
The list really is endless....




> - What platforms are best to use? (for critique/review, editing, publishing, self-publishing, marketing, publicity etc.)



This really is your decision. I can tell you what works in my genre, but that is only for my genre.



> - Which people should be influenced?



In what way?



> - What is the best way to grow the amount of readers and a following?



Be social, be you, but mostly -- write damn good fiction!



> - Focus on publication of short stories in various publications, (higher volume) which can later be published as a collection or focus instead on novels? (higher quality, lower volume)



Short stories are an art all of their own and require a different set of skills to the novel. I can't write short stories: the word count is too compact for how I'm comfortable with writing. If you can do both, good. However, I have noticed that novels from new authors are more likely to be taken on with publishers, unless you're lucky enough to fall on a good call for submissions that your work will fit into with authors.


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## Terry D (Jun 12, 2019)

My best advice would be to tell you to not worry about the business end of writing until you have the craft side down. If you are just starting out you probably aren't writing anything worth selling yet. That's not a put-down it's just a fact, this craft is like any other it takes time practice to start producing a product people are willing to pay for. As a beginner your primary job is to learn how to write a effective story, not to worry about marketing it. Amazon is overfull of novels and stories self-published by people who didn't take the time to learn the craft before posting their 'work' for sale. Don't be one of them.

Selling fiction is one of the most difficult tasks you can undertake. You have a far better statistical chance of winning the Powerball lottery than you do of making a million dollars as a writer. So, you better not be in this just for the money (the average yearly income for a 'working' writer in 2017 was less than $7,000), you need to love writing and be willing to work at the craft to get good at it. Because, as Henry Ford once said, "Profit is the inevitable result of work well done."


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## Theglasshouse (Jun 12, 2019)

Flash is a new trend. It could be what you should try because it is short and will test your skills as a writer and prepare you. Craft is important. Because you must learn everything you can.

I suggest you subscribe to new scientist which is expensive. It costs 100 dollars a year. But many writers swear by it in science fiction. Many famous writers turn to it for inspiration who are not scientists.

Reading the character based science fiction is my main interest. I would ask writers who have read more than you what to read if you have interest in learning about conventions and even try doing what has been done before in a different way. That is also to find what is considered the best science fiction stories. I like less plot based fiction. I do want to focus on that kind of plotting and type of story. To know what was done before you can always consult the online encyclopedia of science fiction by John Clute.


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## Mish (Jun 12, 2019)

Hi luckyscars,

Thank you for your time and response. I appreciate it!



luckyscars said:


> Hi!
> 
> - What strategy should a new writer adopt in today's market?
> 
> No idea what this means, sorry...



To rephrase, what first steps do you recommend for a new writer to do first as high priority before anything else? Apart from dumping their work on an easy to read website. 



luckyscars said:


> - What platforms are best to use? (for critique/review, editing, publishing, self-publishing, marketing, publicity etc.)
> 
> Not sure on this either. If you're asking for a binary choice between publishing and self-publishing, I am traditionally publishing at the moment, I'd say the majority of published people on here are probably self-published. Both have advantages and disadvantages. If you'd like to know what those are, maybe start a thread on it or head to the Publishing Discussion forum.



This caught my attention. I want to know everything you do/did to traditionally publish. How is that working out for you? How successful have you been? Did you try to self publish first and then concluded that traditional way is superior? Who did you go with to publish your work? How many publishers did you approach and how many rejections did you get? How many attempts before they agreed to publish you? What did you have to do to get accepted? (e.g. a very nice and interesting cover letter, connections etc.)

I should probably stop with this line of questioning otherwise I will drown you in the sea of queries.



luckyscars said:


> - Focus on publication of short stories in various publications, (higher volume) which can later be published as a collection or focus instead on novels? (higher quality, lower volume)
> 
> I think every novelist should start writing short-stories. Some disagree, that's their business, but there are numerous skills that starting and finishing stories in rapid succession facilities development of, as opposed to laboring over a single novel for eons. Don't bother with collections, nobody will care, but publish short stories as much as you can, get your name out there, gain that experience and confidence, then maybe think about novels.



I agree with your approach. Hence I currently make short stories my main business. Having said that there are two novels in the works as well, very early stages. My current writing strategy is to use feedback and craft development from short stories on the novels. 

Out of curiosity, what best platform / place do you recommend for short story publishing?


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## Mish (Jun 12, 2019)

JustRob said:


> I always wonder why someone decides that they want to write fiction. In my case it took years for me to understand why I did it and the answer was almost unbelievable, indeed remains unbelievable to most people, but that's by the way. How then do you personally gauge success? Is your primary aim to earn money, to be recognised in society or just to share your imaginings with others because you feel that they are worth sharing regardless of any payback? Writing fiction is the solution to a problem, but what is the problem that you are trying to solve by doing it? Being clear in your own mind on that will assist you in deciding how best to tackle the task and succeed by your own criterion of success. Traditional publication and self-publication can be seen as different solutions matched to different criteria of success. The traditional approach may place more obstacles in your way but overcoming them may itself be essential to your perception of success, while self-publication may be easier but not give you the same feeling that you have achieved what you set out to do. If acquiring income is your objective then no doubt other members can advise you on the overall hourly return that a writer can expect to receive for their efforts in their early years. In my case it's well below zero, but then financial reward was never an objective for me.
> 
> Publication is only half the battle anyway. The key element is promotion. I suspect that many people who casually take to writing are, like myself, not particularly concerned with self-promotion, indeed are even reclusive, writing being a reclusive activity in itself. Having written my novel I had no desire to promote it any more than I desire to promote myself, so even self-publication was unlikely to achieve much. I actually made it available for free download on my own website, just to make it easily accessible to anyone who happened to find out about it, but I have never actively promoted it and don't even subscribe to any of the popular social sites where writers are advised to promote their works, that not being in my nature. Again my social activity here is for a very specific reason and not typical of my character. So, how does one go about promoting one's work if one has no interest in also promoting oneself? Clearly you have to be clear on your reasons for writing to decide how you tackle this side of the task.
> 
> ...



Hi JustRob,

Thank you for your time, for welcoming me and for the thoughtful response to my questions. It was inspiring to read your personal story and your writing experience.

Your questions; _"How then do you personally gauge success? Is your primary aim to earn money, to be recognised in society or just to share your imaginings with others because you feel that they are worth sharing regardless of any payback? Writing fiction is the solution to a problem, but what is the problem that you are trying to solve by doing it?"_ Made me pause and think for a moment.

So in summary. How do I define success? I think of it in tiers.

Tier 3

Become good at writing. Write stories that resonate, with myself first and foremost and then with others. Also, write stories that matter. I've been writing for some time, for myself, as a hobby and I think I am getting better at it. I think I am ready to take it to the next level and see whether my stories resonate with others. There is nothing else I aim to achieve in this tier.

Tier 2

Build a following. Hopefully of readers who like my work. I'm interested in communicating ideas for discussion and I am interested to see what discussions my ideas will generate. There is nothing else I aim to achieve in this tier.

Tier 1

Become successful on the market. Despite the fact, this is probably far fetched. But stranger things in life have happened. I do not wish to sacrifice my personal interests to achieve success. I have firm ideas of what I want to write and which relevant topics to explore. Is that enough to become popular? I don't know.

I'd like to know what tools I will need to achieve any, some or all of the above.

To answer your last question. I used to write stories as a hobby because I like writing. Now, I find myself writing stories that directly relate to my personal experience. It goes something like this; I have a problem>Wait, others experience this problem too, it is a universal problem!>How will we <humanity> attempt to solve this kind of problem in the future>Bingo, here is the story!

I found if I follow the above script, my writing remains interesting to me and hopefully relevant to others. Can that be monetasied? If yes, then goals of all three tiers are achieved. If not, then achieving goals of two tiers will do.


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## Mish (Jun 12, 2019)

Hi Aquilo,

It is nice to meet you as well. Thank you so much for your relevant and thought provoking responses!



Aquilo said:


> Hi, Mish. Nice to meet you.
> 
> 1 Research your market: read other novels in your genre, check out publisher websites and their 'submissions' page, see what novels they produce.
> 2 Write, edit, edit some more, get the work beta read.
> ...



Your bullet points are great and thought provoking! 

What tips do you have for being active on social media? Do you recommend creating a new account just for writing on all platforms (Twitter, Facebook, what else?) to keep it separate from personal?



Aquilo said:


> This really is your decision. I can tell you what works in my genre, but that is only for my genre.



What is your genre? And what works for you? (it's okay if it won't work for me, I'd like to know anyway)



Aquilo said:


> In what way?



A good question. Perhaps it is a two part question:

 1. Who are the key players in this trade that should be influenced? (publishers, editors, readers, reviewers?) 
2. What are acceptable ways of influencing them? (e.g. showing up at the publisher's office with the bosses favourite bottle of wine, is that acceptable or creepy?



Aquilo said:


> Short stories are an art all of their own and require a different set of skills to the novel. I can't write short stories: the word count is too compact for how I'm comfortable with writing. If you can do both, good. However, I have noticed that novels from new authors are more likely to be taken on with publishers, unless you're lucky enough to fall on a good call for submissions that your work will fit into with authors.



I have written about a dozen short stories so far and I have two novels in the works, in the very early stages. What works for me is taking feedback I receive for short stories on my craft and writing style and then applying that feedback to the way I write the novels. In this way there is a symbiotic relationship between the two. Also, I found as I write short stories start to finish, it helps shape my thoughts on how to begin and end chapters in the novels. The way I see it; short stories are snacks, one or two ideas converted to bite size pieces, just enough to get the gist of the idea across, where as novels are full meals, where various ideas coalesce, take form and mend into something else like consequent processes, lessons learnt and ideals. 

However, I am interested to know what works. So I would like to know, which publishers are keen on new authors? Which publishers are keen on shot stories? What has worked for you personally?


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## Mish (Jun 13, 2019)

Terry D said:


> My best advice would be to tell you to not worry about the business end of writing until you have the craft side down. If you are just starting out you probably aren't writing anything worth selling yet. That's not a put-down it's just a fact, this craft is like any other it takes time practice to start producing a product people are willing to pay for. As a beginner your primary job is to learn how to write a effective story, not to worry about marketing it. Amazon is overfull of novels and stories self-published by people who didn't take the time to learn the craft before posting their 'work' for sale. Don't be one of them.
> 
> Selling fiction is one of the most difficult tasks you can undertake. You have a far better statistical chance of winning the Powerball lottery than you do of making a million dollars as a writer. So, you better not be in this just for the money (the average yearly income for a 'working' writer in 2017 was less than $7,000), you need to love writing and be willing to work at the craft to get good at it. Because, as Henry Ford once said, "Profit is the inevitable result of work well done."



Hi Terry D,

Thank you for your time and for the useful advice. I appreciate it!

I agree, working on the craft and developing writing skills is essential. I aim to dedicate most of my (free) time to that extent. 

What has worked for you personally in this business? I'm interested to know your personal story and how you did not become one of them Amazon overfulls by creating work that is well done?


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## Mish (Jun 13, 2019)

Theglasshouse said:


> Flash is a new trend. It could be what you should try because it is short and will test your skills as a writer and prepare you. Craft is important. Because you must learn everything you can.
> 
> I suggest you subscribe to new scientist which is expensive. It costs 100 dollars a year. But many writers swear by it in science fiction. Many famous writers turn to it for inspiration who are not scientists.
> 
> Reading the character based science fiction is my main interest. I would ask writers who have read more than you what to read if you have interest in learning about conventions and even try doing what has been done before in a different way. That is also to find what is considered the best science fiction stories. I like less plot based fiction. I do want to focus on that kind of plotting and type of story. To know what was done before you can always consult the online encyclopedia of science fiction by John Clute.



Hi Theglasshouse,

Thank you for the thoughtful response and useful advice. So many resources to explore, just what I was looking for!

Just out of curiosity, if you like less plot based fiction, does that mean you are more into character based fiction?


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## JustRob (Jun 13, 2019)

Mish said:


> Hi JustRob,
> 
> Thank you for your time, for welcoming me and for the thoughtful response to my questions. It was inspiring to read your personal story and your writing experience.
> 
> ...



Thank you in turn for responding so comprehensively to our remarks.

So if your stories are inspired by your own experiences but you write science fiction, is this about things that could possibly happen in the future or that are most unlikely to? On the other hand do you write about future efforts by mankind to solve its problems that fail because they are impractical? Hopefully we will soon see an example of your work to judge for ourselves.

By the way, my solitary novel was about people being able to acquire information from the future. Since writing it I have discovered that it was apparently inspired by events in my own future at the time that I wrote it. Readers of it regard it as science fiction, but I don't any more. My signature below states that sharing an experience creates a reality, but what reality was it that I created or was it always there anyway? 

As you are most likely aware, writing is as much about forming one's own personal philosophy as anything. In fact in the past "literary and philosophical" societies were popular in Britain and they created substantial private libraries for their members to share ideas, but now we have the Internet instead. One reader of my novel was a present day member of such a society and after reading the novel he asked me to let him know when I wrote the next one, which is unlikely ever to happen. You clearly want not just to write but to share ideas in this way. There are quite a few threads here that do just that as writers need to share, test out and expand on their ideas even before they conceive a work to write.


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## Aquilo (Jun 13, 2019)

> What tips do you have for being active on social media? Do you recommend creating a new account just for writing on all platforms (Twitter, Facebook, what else?) to keep it separate from personal?



Social media can be a lot of fun, but also time-consuming. But it's not just about what you post but what others post too. You're not going to get very far if all you're doing is posting on your timeline about yourself: you have to respond to what other people post on theirs. Its how you build those relations. Me? I'll post maybe one post every two days on my timeline, but spend time more talking to people on their timelines and in the groups I've joined. But I hate talking writing anyway, so it's easier to talk away from that, about reading, family, life, etc.  I'm hard politics, but you step into that with caution on social media!

Some social sites don't like you using a pen name for your private accounts, but you can create pages in your author name. However, I have a pen name for most of my accounts, to be honest. I like the anonymity.



> What is your genre? And what works for you? (it's okay if it won't work for me, I'd like to know anyway)



I'm psych thrillers, paranormal, BDSM, and also contemporary, all within dark MM romance. I started pretty much like everyone else: writing, going through the submission process, waiting for yay or nays. Then when it came to platforms and reviewing... I didn't. It's hard for a new writer to get noticed, so I didn't send out any review requests or ARCs (advanced reader copies), neither did my publishing company. We just waited to see what would happen. I hadn't even gotten a website at that point. So whilst I waited, I made a website, joined Goodreads, Facebook, etc, then... waited some more lol. I kept seeing people say they wanted to read my novel, but because no one else had, they were worried about picking it up. Then a lovely lass from a reviewing company took a chance on it on Goodreads, and it kind of exploded from there. She really got the word out after that. Word of mouth from readers always does work best. But our community is pretty special, where authors/reviewers/readers look out for new people on the scene. Now I'm at a comfortable place where I can send out ARC packs to reviewing companies and they'll take my work on. How I find those sites? I've set up a FB group, a reviewing blog directory, for reviewers to put their submission details down for authors. Other authors have access to it in our genre, as it's a free resource. There's nothing stopping any author from doing the same.



> 1. Who are the key players in this trade that should be influenced? (publishers, editors, readers, reviewers?)
> 2. What are acceptable ways of influencing them? (e.g. showing up at the publisher's office with the bosses favourite bottle of wine, is that acceptable or creepy?



Just write a good story and be professional.  That will target all of the above. 



> I would like to know, which publishers are keen on new authors? Which publishers are keen on shot stories? What has worked for you personally?



Most publishers are keen to take on new authors if the story is good. They're looking for a good investment, so you have to be damn good at what you do. Some won't take on new authors, but that's only because they accept queries from agents. That just means you need to get an agent first.

Hope that helps a little. It's a long and tough process: a lot of waiiting, then nearly drowning with how quick some things can move.


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## Aquilo (Jun 13, 2019)

JustRob said:


> Thank you in turn for responding so comprehensively to our remarks.



It's really good to see, isn't it? Shows a lot of determination with wanting to get on in the craft and get it right.


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## Mish (Jun 13, 2019)

Hi JustRob,

Thank you for your response once again.



JustRob said:


> Thank you in turn for responding so comprehensively to our remarks.
> 
> So if your stories are inspired by your own experiences but you write science fiction, is this about things that could possibly happen in the future or that are most unlikely to? On the other hand do you write about future efforts by mankind to solve its problems that fail because they are impractical? Hopefully we will soon see an example of your work to judge for ourselves.



They are more about universal experiences and human behaviour / human nature, that change very little over time. On political level we appear to be even going backwards. (which coincidentally is the title of Depeche Mode's great, last hit song) Our technology however has advanced considerably over the last couple of decades so we find ourselves in an interesting situation where we attempt to solve our age old problems with the latest technology, often ill equipped to get those problems resolved. Our current trend is towards efficiency, AI and automation, but is that always the best way to deal with the human condition? Black Mirror is a great TV show that often hits this narrative head on quite successfully and I take a lot of inspiration from that. 

I look forward to posting some of my work soon for a review. I remember reading somewhere that 1,500 words (roughly two A4 pages) or less is the recommended amount to post. So what would be a recommended way for someone to post a 7 page short story for a review? (e.g. post it in chunks of two pages if there is demand or just the first two pages and nothing else?)



JustRob said:


> By the way, my solitary novel was about people being able to acquire information from the future. Since writing it I have discovered that it was apparently inspired by events in my own future at the time that I wrote it. Readers of it regard it as science fiction, but I don't any more. My signature below states that sharing an experience creates a reality, but what reality was it that I created or was it always there anyway?
> 
> As you are most likely aware, writing is as much about forming one's own personal philosophy as anything. In fact in the past "literary and philosophical" societies were popular in Britain and they created substantial private libraries for their members to share ideas, but now we have the Internet instead. One reader of my novel was a present day member of such a society and after reading the novel he asked me to let him know when I wrote the next one, which is unlikely ever to happen. You clearly want not just to write but to share ideas in this way. There are quite a few threads here that do just that as writers need to share, test out and expand on their ideas even before they conceive a work to write.



Thank you for this background information. Interesting question about reality. I suppose, our reality is our perception meaning that our realities are quite different when seen from the eyes of others. Ten people looking at the same black box on the table will probably see ten different things. A present to some, a piece of rubbish to others.

I'm looking forward to sharing ideas on the threads here, it is one of the main reasons why I joined.

Also, do you have a link to where I can find your novel?


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## Mish (Jun 13, 2019)

Hi Aquilo,

Thank you once again for your relevant and comprehensive response. 



Aquilo said:


> Social media can be a lot of fun, but also time-consuming. But it's not just about what you post but what others post too. You're not going to get very far if all you're doing is posting on your timeline about yourself: you have to respond to what other people post on theirs. Its how you build those relations. Me? I'll post maybe one post every two days on my timeline, but spend time more talking to people on their timelines and in the groups I've joined. But I hate talking writing anyway, so it's easier to talk away from that, about reading, family, life, etc.  I'm hard politics, but you step into that with caution on social media!
> 
> Some social sites don't like you using a pen name for your private accounts, but you can create pages in your author name. However, I have a pen name for most of my accounts, to be honest. I like the anonymity.



I think this is good advice. What social media do you use in your strategy? (apart from Facebook)

I agree with you regarding approaching social media with caution, it can be a dynamite or a minefield. (especially when it comes to politics) I haven't yet decided how to approach this, even though I agree it is very important.



Aquilo said:


> I'm psych thrillers, paranormal, BDSM, and also contemporary, all within dark MM romance. I started pretty much like everyone else: writing, going through the submission process, waiting for yay or nays. Then when it came to platforms and reviewing... I didn't. It's hard for a new writer to get noticed, so I didn't send out any review requests or ARCs (advanced reader copies), neither did my publishing company. We just waited to see what would happen. I hadn't even gotten a website at that point. So whilst I waited, I made a website, joined Goodreads, Facebook, etc, then... waited some more lol. I kept seeing people say they wanted to read my novel, but because no one else had, they were worried about picking it up. Then a lovely lass from a reviewing company took a chance on it on Goodreads, and it kind of exploded from there. She really got the word out after that. Word of mouth from readers always does work best. But our community is pretty special, where authors/reviewers/readers look out for new people on the scene. Now I'm at a comfortable place where I can send out ARC packs to reviewing companies and they'll take my work on. How I find those sites? I've set up a FB group, a reviewing blog directory, for reviewers to put their submission details down for authors. Other authors have access to it in our genre, as it's a free resource. There's nothing stopping any author from doing the same.



Would you recommend for a new writer to go through a similar processes you described for experience or shortcut through some of that? 

Also, psych thrillers sound interesting. Could you please share a link to one written by you I can have a look at?



Aquilo said:


> Most publishers are keen to take on new authors if the story is good. They're looking for a good investment, so you have to be damn good at what you do. Some won't take on new authors, but that's only because they accept queries from agents. That just means you need to get an agent first.
> 
> Hope that helps a little. It's a long and tough process: a lot of waiiting, then nearly drowning with how quick some things can move.



Every bit of advice and information is helpful. In the very least in shaping the expectations. So thank you for your help!

I hope if I ever get to a stage where I am "damn good at what I do" someone here will point it out so I can take it to the next level.


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## Theglasshouse (Jun 13, 2019)

Mish said:


> Hi Theglasshouse,
> 
> Thank you for the thoughtful response and useful advice. So many resources to explore, just what I was looking for!
> 
> Just out of curiosity, if you like less plot based fiction, does that mean you are more into character based fiction?



Hello Mish. Thanks for replying. I enjoy character based fiction more. So yes I do prefer it. My favorite science fiction I have read so far is character based. I get golden age science fiction was pulp. But I for example read a lot of fiction written during that "golden age" of science fiction.  Alfred Bester and Roger Zelany, I read a lot of their work. Ray Bradbury was recommended to me. As was Matheson, and that is what I plan to be reading. Reading character based science fiction made me want to write it. It made me a fan.


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## JustRob (Jun 14, 2019)

Mish said:


> Hi JustRob,
> 
> Thank you for your response once again.
> 
> ...



The discussion in the thread below will probably interest you. It addresses the idea that science fiction is often just a context within which to explore the human condition.

Science Fiction is Not About Science 



> I look forward to posting some of my work soon for a review. I remember reading somewhere that 1,500 words (roughly two A4 pages) or less is the recommended amount to post. So what would be a recommended way for someone to post a 7 page short story for a review? (e.g. post it in chunks of two pages if there is demand or just the first two pages and nothing else?)



When I joined WF I posted the entire first chapter of my novel for comment and nobody complained. The original version of 5320 words is HERE and then later I posted a revised version of 6900 words HERE in the same thread. The answer is therefore to do what you feel is reasonable and see how people respond. If you take too many liberties someone will warn you about it, but gently at first.



> Thank you for this background information. Interesting question about reality. I suppose, our reality is our perception meaning that our realities are quite different when seen from the eyes of others. Ten people looking at the same black box on the table will probably see ten different things. A present to some, a piece of rubbish to others.
> 
> I'm looking forward to sharing ideas on the threads here, it is one of the main reasons why I joined.
> 
> Also, do you have a link to where I can find your novel?



If you want to read more than just two versions of the first chapter of my novel then the much shorter second chapter is HERE. If you are still game after that then the first part of the story is available as a PDF, EPUB or MOBI file. Send me a private message if you want it and I'll give you a link. I envisaged the original whole saga as being in six parts, but where the individual novels would end depends more on the acceptable length of novels than the story line. 

By the way, on the subject of whether to write short stories or novels, each of my chapters is virtually a short story in itself as I like to give the reader a payback from each. It's a way to keep them reading rather than just piling up promises to be fulfilled much later if they are willing to read much more. It also provides an easy progression from short story writing to novel writing so long as you have an overall story line to follow as well.


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## Aquilo (Jun 14, 2019)

Mish said:


> Thank you once again for your relevant and comprehensive response.



They're good and thoughtful questions.  



> What social media do you use in your strategy? (apart from Facebook)



Facebook is my main one, but I'm also on Goodreads. I also have a newsletter subscription option on my website. I did mostly start on Goodreads to begin with: that has some good reader groups on there, but that is mostly for readers, and they like their reading space without having an author look over their shoulder. So I mostly do the odd promo on their via my Goodreads blog nowadays.



> Would you recommend for a new writer to go through a similar processes you described for experience or shortcut through some of that?



I'd recommend getting together a good list of reviewing sites and sending out review requests prior to publication if you can. I didn't with my first, and with hindsight, I should have had a little more faith in my work. If you're with a good publisher, they'll have their own marketing department and always talk to them first about what they need you to do, but most will hand over a review packs/links to you in order for you to go and solicit reviews yourself from reviewing blogs. But if you go self-pub, I'd definitely recommend being savvy about about reviewing companies and allowing them time to review your work before it goes live to the public. So approach reviewers about a month/2 months prior to publication. A lot of self-published authors are only giving reviewing blogs two weeks notice, and that tends to cripple reviewers. They handle a lot of authors and need time to read a novel, so be tuned into a reviewer's stress points too--don't give them a short deadline to get the novel read.



> Also, psych thrillers sound interesting. Could you please share a link to one written by you I can have a look at?



If you're looking to see how things work for authors, I'll give you the link to Goodreads and my author page rather than show you a specific novel. It'll give you an idea on what's needed on Goodreads and what an author page can look like. That might help you more.  Goodreads Link Here. 



> every bit of advice and information is helpful. In the very least in shaping the expectations. So thank you for your help!



Anytime. We've all been there: just starting out, and we don't forget what it's like, mostly because we never stop learning and screwing up ourselves, lol.


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## Mish (Jun 16, 2019)

Hi JustRob,

Thank you once again!



JustRob said:


> The discussion in the thread below will probably interest you. It addresses the idea that science fiction is often just a context within which to explore the human condition.
> 
> Science Fiction is Not About Science



It does look interesting, I will have a look.




JustRob said:


> When I joined WF I posted the entire first chapter of my novel for comment and nobody complained. The original version of 5320 words is HERE and then later I posted a revised version of 6900 words HERE in the same thread. The answer is therefore to do what you feel is reasonable and see how people respond. If you take too many liberties someone will warn you about it, but gently at first.
> 
> If you want to read more than just two versions of the first chapter of my novel then the much shorter second chapter is HERE. If you are still game after that then the first part of the story is available as a PDF, EPUB or MOBI file. Send me a private message if you want it and I'll give you a link. I envisaged the original whole saga as being in six parts, but where the individual novels would end depends more on the acceptable length of novels than the story line.



I'm happy to report that I read both versions of the first chapter you posted on this forum. Now I finally understand the picture in your avatar. (a great opening to the novel by the way!) The chapters were good, I liked them. They had a certain feeling of "Alice in Wonderland" that someone else mentioned in their review of your work. I also especially liked the first paragraph of your unedited version that begins with "THE END", it reminded me of a great film called "Memento" that begins in the end and finishes in the beginning. (though, no reference to your work)

What caught my attention the most in the first chapter was Lucine's relationship with James. It was interesting to read about his projections of "what he wanted her to be instead of who she really was". I found this very relatable, because haven't we all experienced such projections from someone at one point or another. I almost wished the chapter continued more on this trail and described in more detail how they were and their point of failure.

I will try to find some time to read the second chapter.



JustRob said:


> By the way, on the subject of whether to write short stories or novels, each of my chapters is virtually a short story in itself as I like to give the reader a payback from each. It's a way to keep them reading rather than just piling up promises to be fulfilled much later if they are willing to read much more. It also provides an easy progression from short story writing to novel writing so long as you have an overall story line to follow as well.



That's good to know. This is how I attempt to write my very early stage novel as well. To that extent, I am using the experience gained from starting and finishing the short stories. 

I am close to finishing the latest short story I am working on at the moment. In which thread would it be best to post it for feedback?


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## Mish (Jun 16, 2019)

Aquilo said:


> Facebook is my main one, but I'm also on Goodreads. I also have a newsletter subscription option on my website. I did mostly start on Goodreads to begin with: that has some good reader groups on there, but that is mostly for readers, and they like their reading space without having an author look over their shoulder. So I mostly do the odd promo on their via my Goodreads blog nowadays.
> 
> I'd recommend getting together a good list of reviewing sites and sending out review requests prior to publication if you can. I didn't with my first, and with hindsight, I should have had a little more faith in my work. If you're with a good publisher, they'll have their own marketing department and always talk to them first about what they need you to do, but most will hand over a review packs/links to you in order for you to go and solicit reviews yourself from reviewing blogs. But if you go self-pub, I'd definitely recommend being savvy about about reviewing companies and allowing them time to review your work before it goes live to the public. So approach reviewers about a month/2 months prior to publication. A lot of self-published authors are only giving reviewing blogs two weeks notice, and that tends to cripple reviewers. They handle a lot of authors and need time to read a novel, so be tuned into a reviewer's stress points too--don't give them a short deadline to get the novel read.
> 
> If you're looking to see how things work for authors, I'll give you the link to Goodreads and my author page rather than show you a specific novel. It'll give you an idea on what's needed on Goodreads and what an author page can look like. That might help you more.  Goodreads Link Here.



Hi Aquilo,

Thank you for your great advice, as always!

I will check out the Goodreads, this platform is very new to me, I will need some time to get my head around how it works. 

Just out of curiosity, how many followers / readers do you have on it? How long did it take you to build this following? How many books can one hope to sell through this channel? I'm also curious how you sourced the great cover art work for your books?

On the subject of reviewers for self publishers, is there a list of reviewers that you would recommend?

I'm sorry about too many questions, I'm just starting out.


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## JustRob (Jun 17, 2019)

Mish said:


> What caught my attention the most in the first chapter was Lucine's relationship with James. It was interesting to read about his projections of "what he wanted her to be instead of who she really was". I found this very relatable, because haven't we all experienced such projections from someone at one point or another. I almost wished the chapter continued more on this trail and described in more detail how they were and their point of failure.
> 
> I will try to find some time to read the second chapter.



You say that you write from personal experience and so did I. I spent my working life in an office and that was the inspiration for the format of the novel and the idea of a building that could move outside of normal time and space. An office within a large company is another world. The things that matter can be quite different from the reality outside and the staff are isolated from their lives beyond the building's walls. Our company sold life assurance, so from the information that we obtained about our clients we could form impressions of their lives, but we never got any details beyond that. The novel is equally irritating, disclosing facts about intriguing events outside of the office but leaving the reader to imagine the details. That is where the idea of everything appearing normal but nothing actually happening comes from. My intention was to enable the reader to share in the feelings of the office workers in the story, the frustration of playing a part in those events but never truly sharing in them. From your comment it appears that my strategy succeeded with you. It's one of the reasons for the words "about something else" after the title. 



> I am close to finishing the latest short story I am working on at the moment. In which thread would it be best to post it for feedback?



If you want only members to see it and not the public in order to retain all your publication rights then you should post it as a new thread in the Fiction Workshop. However, bearing in mind the principle that we give and take here, you should also read the items that others have posted there and post your comments on their threads. Doing that encourages members to comment on your work. We are all readers and it doesn't matter how experienced we are as writers when we are offering critique as readers. Writers may suggest better ways of doing things but the author of a piece may have their own opinion on that and only want to know how a reader will see it, so don't have any qualms about saying how you react to a work.

Regarding your previous question about the length of posts, note the convention of mentioning in the thread heading the rough word count of your work. This enables members to decide whether they have the time to read it. However, to get an idea of how things work and the sort of response you may get, read some of the existing threads and join in there. Offering critique on the work of others is good practice for the more important task of looking critically at your own work. If you see a shortcoming in someone else's work you should always ask yourself whether you handle the issue any better in yours.


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## dahand (Jun 17, 2019)

I relatively famous published author advised me to go to the bookstore and pick out the authors who are successful in the genre I intend on writing and copy them.  I found this well-intentioned advice insulting.  I believe a writer must be true to the story in his or her own mind, not try to follow a formula, no matter how successful.  I might be in the minority in this thinking however.


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## Aquilo (Jun 17, 2019)

dahand said:


> I relatively famous published author advised me to go to the bookstore and pick out the authors who are successful in the genre I intend on writing and copy them. I found this well-intentioned advice insulting. I believe a writer must be true to the story in his or her own mind, not try to follow a formula, no matter how successful. I might be in the minority in this thinking however.



It's good advice to check out how published authors make it into paper, but I wouldn't say copy them. You need to find your own style and story.




Mish said:


> I will check out the Goodreads, this platform is very new to me, I will need some time to get my head around how it works.



There's no rush.  In fact I'd say take your time to get to know anything about the industry. 



> Just out of curiosity, how many followers / readers do you have on it? How long did it take you to build this following? How many books can one hope to sell through this channel? I'm also curious how you sourced the great cover art work for your books?



Followers themselves aren't important to know.  It's like Amazon, where reviews and ratings sell the work to other readers. And those you have to leave to readers when it comes to your own work. Good reads is now tied to Amazon, so the two work together: you have Amazon buy links on your Goodreads novels. With my cover art, I use a cover artist.  At first y ovels had cover art from my publisher, but since I've gotten rights my back, I've redone them via my cover artist. Because I know my community, I know a numbert of cover artists and photographers.



> On the subject of reviewers for self publishers, is there a list of reviewers that you would recommend?



I have a list as long as my arm, but they are reviwersin my genre: dark/mainstream MM romance. The novels has to have that as a core theme. If it doesn't, it's no good sending your novel to these sites.  



> I'm sorry about too many questions, I'm just starting out.



Don't ever worry about asking! It's when you stop and get caught out on the likes of contracts and rogue publishing scams that you need to worry.


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## Mish (Jun 17, 2019)

JustRob said:


> You say that you write from personal experience and so did I. I spent my working life in an office and that was the inspiration for the format of the novel and the idea of a building that could move outside of normal time and space. An office within a large company is another world. The things that matter can be quite different from the reality outside and the staff are isolated from their lives beyond the building's walls. Our company sold life assurance, so from the information that we obtained about our clients we could form impressions of their lives, but we never got any details beyond that. The novel is equally irritating, disclosing facts about intriguing events outside of the office but leaving the reader to imagine the details. That is where the idea of everything appearing normal but nothing actually happening comes from. My intention was to enable the reader to share in the feelings of the office workers in the story, the frustration of playing a part in those events but never truly sharing in them. From your comment it appears that my strategy succeeded with you. It's one of the reasons for the words "about something else" after the title.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you JustRob,

I have occasionally browsed through the Fiction Workshop to understand how it works and your advice is spot on. I will first get on the task of reviewing the work of others before I post my own. Hopefully my short story will not be too wordy for others when I do post it. Also, I understand that critiquing the work of others is good practice for building those necessary skills to critique own work. So it really is a win / win situation.


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## Mish (Jun 17, 2019)

Aquilo said:


> Followers themselves aren't important to know.  It's like Amazon, where reviews and ratings sell the work to other readers. And those you have to leave to readers when it comes to your own work. Good reads is now tied to Amazon, so the two work together: you have Amazon buy links on your Goodreads novels. With my cover art, I use a cover artist.  At first y ovels had cover art from my publisher, but since I've gotten rights my back, I've redone them via my cover artist. Because I know my community, I know a numbert of cover artists and photographers.



Thanks Aquilo,

Your enthusiasm to help is much appreciated! 

I guess I asked about followers because it might be a useful indicator of writing progress. Something you can measure the success of your writing work with? The more the merrier? (I hope)

It's good to know how Goodreads works, thank you for the quick run down. I will try to setup an account further down the line when I have more work that I can put on. I wish I had a community from which I can source talent like cover artists. I guess it's something I will need to discover by myself in time. I'm sure they are around my area somewhere, waiting to be found.



Aquilo said:


> It's when you stop and get caught out on the likes of contracts and rogue publishing scams that you need to worry.



Contract pit falls and rogue publishing scams are some things I know nothing about I'm afraid. It's probably too early for me to know. I guess I will encounter them at some stage, but hopefully will come back here for advice beforehand.


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## Mish (Jun 24, 2019)

After much deliberation I have submitted my short story for critique. If anyone on this thread is interested you can find it here; https://www.writingforums.com/threads/183269-The-Great-Democracy-(3-676-words)


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