# Edwardian British Royal Navy 1910



## lwhitehead (Apr 2, 2020)

Hi folks I need to know what the Edwardian British Navy was like in 1910, it's for my Alt Hisotry setting inspired by the Leviatans Board Game. 


I need to know what they ate, were the Edwardian era Seaman hungered for Fresh Vegetables as they did in the Age of Sail?, what about other types of Food such as Meat still heavy salted?, such as Boiled Beef and the Seaman's loathing of Fish.


How Snobbish was the Edwardian British Navy?, I mean First Sea Lord Jackie Fisher was decried for his Common Background, 


LW


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## Olly Buckle (Apr 3, 2020)

The navy had a tradition that it was possible to rise through the ranks. Admiral Pellew, viscount Exmouth was a midshipman in the American wars of the late 1700's, but really he was about the only one, I don't know how much that had changed by the time you are talking of. Sorry I can't be of more help, I shall watch the thread with interest. I know recruits to the army in 1914 grew and put on weight considerably because they were getting a much better diet than they did as labourers, and the problems of scurvy had been overcome.
Steam ships that could sail straight to somewhere and chronometers that overcame the latitude problem certainly gave the opportunity for much better, fresher, food, but I don't know how much this was realised.


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## Bloggsworth (Apr 3, 2020)

Admiral Fisher was the first person, in about 1917, to use OMG to represent the phrase "Oh my God."


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## Olly Buckle (Apr 3, 2020)

I have been exploring a bit, there seems to be a fascination with salt meat and the age of sail. The best I can find are statements like 'Until steam came along and changed sailor's lives', but then they talk about them becoming stokers and engineers. This is probably the most useful one I have found.

http://17thdivision.tripod.com/rationsoftheageofempire/id5.html


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## Olly Buckle (Apr 3, 2020)

You could try sending an enquiry to the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich.

It really is frustrating, over and over I make searches specifying 'navy' or 'sailors' and it chucks up answers saying 'army' and 'soldiers'. It seems quite likely they got tinned meat, bully beef, and some sort of biscuit, but I can't find a direct reference.


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## Bloggsworth (Apr 3, 2020)

Should find some useful information here:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?ei=qzWHXpDXKZWFhbIPl_WtkAM&q=pre+1914+royal+navy+historical+accounts&oq=pre+1914+royal+navy+historical+accounts&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzoECAAQRzoCCAA6BggAEBYQHjoECAAQQzoICAAQFhAKEB46BQgAEM0COggIIRAWEB0QHjoECCEQClDUxwFY2PsCYL2UA2gBcAJ4AIABowGIAbEOkgEEMjMuMpgBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXo&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjQ2MuVqszoAhWVQkEAHZd6CzIQ4dUDCAo&uact=5


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## lwhitehead (Apr 3, 2020)

Fresh Banked Bread Daily thanks to Jackie Fisher by 1910, so I need to know how much improved were the Edwardian Naval Surgeons and Doctors were?.


LW


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## lwhitehead (Apr 3, 2020)

I forgot to ask was Porter Beer in the Edwardian Era still considered the drink of Labors?, and did the Edwardian Naval Captain have to bring up his own food supplies as well like in the Age of Sail.

LW


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## CyberWar (Apr 4, 2020)

Service in the Royal Navy around 1910 was a time of great change because of the ongoing arms race with other great powers. New classes of larger, more powerful and advanced ships than ever before were introduced on an almost yearly basis, so the enlisted men and officers alike had plenty of studying and practice to do to keep up. This rapid change was especially hard on the senior officers who had spent much of their careers in the Age of Sail. Dreadnought battleship and the submarine were some of the most revolutionary innovations of the day, necessitating principial re-invention of naval tactics. Although Brits already had a rough grasp on what changes were necessary owing to the recent Russo-Japanese War, the conservatism of the top brass (and British military culture in general) prevented the necessary innovations to be implemented in full until after the outbreak of WWI. The biggest military innovators of the period were the Germans, who had grasped the importance of the role that submarines would play in future conflicts early on, and were consequently able to give the Royal Navy a rude surprise early on in the Great War.

As everything else in British society of the time (and most other contemporary ones), the Royal Navy was very class-stratified, although all in all the Royal Navy was still more egalitarian than most other military or civil establishments in Britain, or their foreign equivalents. While it was possible for a man of humble origins to advance on merit alone, it was more of an exception than a rule, most senior officers being from well-connected upper-class families. Still, for the urban poor, the navy was indeed a lucrative employment  opportunity and a chance to advance in social standing as well. 

Officers would generally maintain distance from their subordinates, and discipline was quite harsh by modern standards (albeit still somewhat modest compared to other contemporary navies). Although flogging had been abolished, sailors could still expect to be punished with solitary confinement, revocation of shore leave and extended periods of unpleasant chores for minor infractions. More serious disciplinary actions would be meted out by court martial and could range all the way up to capital punishment, although this was pretty much reserved for mutiny and dispensed very rarely even during wartime, so serious offenders could most likely look forwards to a dishonourable discharge and a time in prison. All in all, though, disciplinary measures in 1910's Royal Navy were reasonable, even somewhat mild compared to some rival nations like Italy, Austria-Hungary or Russia.

Given the paramount importance of navy in the British military doctrine, the Royal Navy was generally better supplied and trained than the army, although that would change during the Great War where navy only played a secondary role. Ships generally carried a mix of frozen and canned provisions, with a preference for the latter since they wouldn't spoil if the refrigeration unit broke down. Among usual foodstuffs were corned beef, canned beans, Bovril and navy biscuits. Navy regulations also required that sailors be provided with a ration vegetables or fruits, whichever was more available. Fresh provisions were purchased where possible, such as during refueling stops, and could provide the men with some much-wanted refreshment of an otherwise monotonous diet. Ports of call in the tropics were consequently popular because various exotic fruits could be purchased fresh. The men could also purchase their own food privately during shore leave and receive parcels from home (provided they could be delivered).

One of the most time-honoured traditions of the Royal Navy eagerly awaited by the crew every day was the daily tot - the daily ration of rum that every seaman was entitled to. Tots were served out from a special ornate barrel in glasses reserved only for grog. According to custom, these glasses were never washed on the inside in the belief that the residue from previous servings would make the grog stronger. Senior ratings received their rum neat, while the junior seamen had it diluted with water and some lemon or lime juice (as a measure against scurvy). Officers were not entitled to a rum ration, instead keeping a supply of liquors in the officers' mess and (presumably) have private stocks. Non-drinkers could opt out of the daily tot and instead receive 3 pence on top of their daily pay, though most men evidently preferred the drink. Sailors younger than 20 were legally underage and would not receive a rum ration.

Warships and naval bases alike had separate messes for officers, senior NCOs and enlisted men/junior NCOs. Officers and senior NCOs were required by regulation to pay a membership fee for their respective mess, which was spent to procure supplies for it. Enlisted ratings and junior NCOs weren't required to pay such a fee, being fed at the Crown's expense. Messes also served as social clubs for the respective classes. Officers were technically allowed access to all of them, though entering a mess reserved for the lower ranks without invitation was generally considered poor form and abuse of authority. Each mess had staff appointed from among its members, who had various mess-related duties in addition to their usual military ones (such as collecting membership fees, procuring liquors, organizing entertainment, etc.). The officers' mess, known as a Wardroom in Royal Navy parlance, being an establishment of class, also had permanent staff from the enlisted ranks (bartenders, butlers, etc.) The size and elaborateness of the Wardroom would obviously depend on the size of the ship/naval base. The commander of the ship/base generally wasn't considered part of the Wardroom or any other mess, all of them technically being his, so managing the Wardroom fell to the XO who would appoint other staff members. The junior officer and senior NCO mess was in turn known as the Gunroom because of it's historical location on the gun deck in sailing ships.

Naturally, some ships were more prestigious to serve aboard than others. Around 1910, serving aboard one of the new dreadnoughts was the dream of every seaman. Every officer's dream was to one day become the captain of one (which would pretty much guarantee their eventual promotion to admiral ranks), and every enlisted man likewise had no greater pride than to serve aboard one of these floating citadels. Ironically, it was not the mighty battleships, but rather the humble minesweepers, destroyers and light cruisers that carried most of the weight in naval actions of the Great War. Where the mighty dreadnoughts only met in battle off the coast of Jutland in 1916, destroyers and light cruisers of the Royal Navy saw action almost daily, clearing sealanes, protecting vital commerce from enemy submarines and commerce raiders, and raiding enemy shipping themselves. The dreadnoughts in the meanwhile spent most of their time in port, deterring enemy naval action simply with their presence (fleet-in-being doctrine). Bitter experience with their vulnerability to submarines and naval mines early in the war also prevented both sides from risking their most valuable warships out in the seas.


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## lwhitehead (Apr 5, 2020)

I would like again to mention again about when Jackie Fisher was Third Sea Lord he got Fresh Baked Bread daily, sounds like the Ward Room was model after those Gentleman London Clubs the ones were a common Man wouldn't be let in. This again I asked about the status of Porter Beer (Personal Note I like Porter Beer in fact here in B.C. Canada there's a Brand which is 8%), 

So check on the Captain bring on board his own supplies to eat and drink, but for a purse proud man he would know the price of things, this is due to his Father being a Miner back in Canada Miners did have problems holding to there wealth once get it.

Can 1910 Naval Surgeon handle at Appendicitis?.

LW


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## CyberWar (Apr 6, 2020)

I wouldn't know for certain how porter beer in particular was regarded in British society at the time, but beer in general was drunk by all social classes because it was cheap and could be locally produced. The low cost made it a natural choice for the working classes, but that's not to say that gentlemen of class did not enjoy their pints as well. Wine and champagne might have been the drinks of choice in upscale gatherings by convention, but beer was still by far the most common alcoholic beverage in everyday consumption among Britons of all classes. The reason one wouldn't see beer served in upscale banquets isn't so much for it's association with the common riff-raff than simply because it was an everyday product, nothing special or fancy with which the banquet's host could show off his wealth and refinement. 

Naval surgeons of the 1910's could certainly handle a case of appendicitis. The procedure of appendectomy had been known for well over a century by 1910, having been constantly evolved and improved over the 19th century, so by the turn of 20th century any surgeon worth his salt would have been able to perform it. It is a relatively simple surgery that doesn't even need general anaesthesia, certainly much simpler than the compound fractures, severe burns and shrapnel wounds that naval surgeons would have to treat in wartime.


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## lwhitehead (Apr 6, 2020)

Lord Cardigan comes to mind and the Black Bottle affair, so a 1910 Naval Surgeon can handle the type of operation that I mention, good it's for the first book idea that I've have. 


The Ward Room sounds like a Gentlemen's club a Blueblood haven, having a CO who has no friends at Court or Admirality, in Victorian to Great War get metals and knighthood Stars were impossable to very hard for common Army or Navy there also in 1910 no Prize Money at this time in the Navy.


LW


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## CyberWar (Apr 6, 2020)

The wardrooms were essentially that - gentlemen's clubs with their own etiquette and code of conduct. Attending officers were expected to refrain from discussing politics, religion and women. Discussing work, performing work or meeting subordinates in the wardroom was also considered poor form. Officers who entered during a meal were required to ask permission to join to the most senior officer present.

The CO of the ship was not usually a member of the Wardroom and would generally attend only when invited. Unless invited by the officers to join them in the Wardroom, the CO usually dined in his personal quarters.

Earning medals and advancements wasn't as difficult for a talented commoner as it might seem, though it was certainly harder than for someone with proper connections - but then again, same is still largely true in today's comparatively egalitarian society.


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## lwhitehead (Apr 7, 2020)

Yes my main Character is a talented commoner from Canada, despight his Father striking it rich but his it's this very man who is the mill stone around his neck. 

I'm figuring out that a Superliner wouldn't have a Doctor on board hence one of the minor plotlines in my book.

LW


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## CyberWar (Apr 8, 2020)

I take that by "superliner" you mean "super-dreadnought". If your book is set in 1910, that would be inaccurate since the _Orion_-class battleships that were the first to be called "super-dreadnoughts" were only launched in 1912.

Honestly I find it extremely unlikely that there would ever be a situation with no doctors whatsoever aboard a battleship. A battleship would have several surgeons with assistants for a number of reasons. Even in peacetime, there would rarely be a shortage of patients in the infirmary from everyday injuries and illnesses who could appear on any time of the day. Consequently, a minimum of two certified doctors and at least the same number of orderlies with some medical training were required to take shifts in the infirmary and keep it running 24/7. During wartime where any number from the crew of about 750 men could sustain life-threatening injuries, that number would have to be even greater. Lastly, the doctors themselves weren't impervious to illness or injury, so at least two would be kept aboard to avoid precisely the sort of situation you describe.

https://www.jutlandcrewlists.org/orion

I found this crew list for HMS Orion as it was during the Battle of Jutland in 1916. It lists two surgeons and at least two orderlies, though the occupation list is incomplete so there were probably more. The crew composition was probably quite similar between the battleships.

Also, since battleships spent most of their time in port, at most doing short-range patrols, it wouldn't be much of a problem to find at least a temporary replacement doctor in the naval base or the nearby city.
You could have a situation where a battleship must undertake a longer journey through the tropics, with one of the two certified surgeons falling severely ill and the chief surgeon dying of unrelated causes, leaving one of the orderlies to assume the role of acting medical officer. The problem with this premise is that no dreadnought battleships served anywhere in the tropics in 1910-1914. You could, however, pick one of the older battleships or a cruiser to act as your setting.

https://www.naval-history.net/xGW-RNOrganisation1900-14.htm#3

This list shows the Royal Navy deployments between 1900 and 1914, none of the modern dreadnoughts being deployed away from British Isles. It does, however, also provide a comprehensive list of older battleships and lesser vessels that did serve in the colonies, so you could pick one of them to be your 100% historically-accurate setting. Of course, you might as well just write an entirely fictional battleship as the setting, in which case ignore pretty much everything I've said.


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## lwhitehead (Apr 9, 2020)

No I mean the Superliner Passenger boats, like RMS Mauretania. 

H.M.A. : London is a Heavy Cruiser, 

Yes I know the fact that Heavy Cruiser didn't show up until after the Great War, the A at the end is short for Airship that's right in my 1910 setting all of major powers have Air not Wet Navies. Inspired by Leviatans Board Game, it's Alt History setting also the Graphic Novel Aetheric Mechanics it too has flying Naval ships.

One problem I have right now is that I might be sailing too close to Plagiarism and Copyright issues, if does become a problem then I can turn into a Hard Fantasy Setting.

LW


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## lwhitehead (Apr 14, 2020)

Come on folks I still need help with the Edwardian Navy, like how does Order are told from Captain down to the Officers, Does He have to wait for until the ship is in the area to open the orders. 


Second problem is that How does the Captain find out the Men that will serve under him?,

LW


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## CyberWar (Apr 16, 2020)

The usual ways of passing orders from the bridge to the various ship's sections was via speaking tubes and (specifically to the engine room) mechanical telegraph. More non-essential orders not pertaining to the operation of the ship could be delivered by runners.

For orders issued to the captain by fleet command, that would depend strongly on the circumstance. The envelope containing the orders would usually come with instructions. Unless specified otherwise, the captain would read his orders at his own discretion and brief his officers before departure. If secrecy was required, the envelope and/or the delivering person would specify when and were to open it.

Captains generally didn't have much say over who got assigned to their ship. They would submit a list of vacancies, and the personnel department of the Navy would find and assign men with the necessary qualifications to their ships. If a captain wanted someone particular to serve on his ship, he could, of course, ask for a favour if he knew the right officers, but that wasn't a standard practice by any means.


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## lwhitehead (Apr 16, 2020)

Great that means for Captain to find out more about his Officers he would have a one to one meal with them.

What about Prizes in the Age of Sail a ship's crew and Captain could rely on Prize Money but by 1910 it's gone in the British Navy so how do they get the Rewards that lured most Men to join the Navy in the First place?.


LW


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## CyberWar (Apr 17, 2020)

Although a number of other nations had abolished it, prize money was still a thing in Royal Navy by 1910, being fully abolished only in 1948. The standard practice around 1910 and throughout WWI was to pay £5 per every man aboard a sunk enemy ship, so, for example, a battleship with a crew of 453 would be worth £2,265 - quite a considerable sum, equivalent to about £253,612 in the present day. Prizes were awarded only for confirmed kills and were split between all ships present in the action to avoid the lengthy legal disputes between captains that had often plagued prize courts in earlier ages. Every man aboard a victorious ship was entitled to an equal share regardless of rank. Such high-value kills were obviously very rare and only happened during major naval actions, where pay an individual sailor received was further diminished by the great number of men entitled to a share present. So the likeliest to receive sizeable individual prizes were the crews of commerce raiders who were the likeliest to engage in one-on-one actions. On the downside, since prizes were paid on the basis of enemy crew size, the ones earned by commerce raiders would usually be quite small.

That said, it wasn't the prospect of prizes that enticed men to enlist in the Navy, especially in times of peace where claiming any was very unlikely. Most ordinary sailors came from the urban poor - for them, a steady pay and guaranteed three meals a day was already a dream come true. In the class-stratified British society, the Navy was also one of, if not the most meritocratic establishment where talented men of the lower classes had a chance to advance above and beyond their station. Lastly, service in the Royal Navy was traditionally considered a prestigious and respectable job.


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## lwhitehead (Apr 20, 2020)

Ah Confirmed Kills in the Great War, well I know how much that was missed used by Royal Air Force Billy Bishop comes to mind. Confirming a Kill is very hard to do. 

I also figured out that in British Air or Water Navy that each Seaman and Officer has a file which listed there Naval life,so when the First Sea Lord is trying to figure out a crew for a ship. 

LW


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## lwhitehead (Apr 23, 2020)

Going back to the British Naval Prizes since it's stated at Five Pounds a head, but what about in the Age of Sail the Captain got a larger share what about in the Edwardian era?.


LW


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## CyberWar (Apr 24, 2020)

The Prize Courts Act of 1894 established that specific prize rules were to be established by Order in Council at the onset of any military conflict. 

It also seems that the law distinguished between prize money proper, paid for capturing enemy ships, and head bounty paid for sinking them. The prizes for captures were not paid out to individual ships, but rather collected into a Naval Prize Fund to be paid out at the end of the war. These payouts were distributed according to a 13-tier paygrade system, an Admiral of the Fleet being eligible to 1000 shares, while the lowest-ranking crewmembers of Tier 13 would receive 2 shares of the prize fund. For an able seaman (Tier 11), the payout at the end of WWI amounted to about £25. The formula for determining the exact payout was quite complex, factoring in rank, experience and months spent at sea during conflict, but generally aligned with the established prize division traditions going back to the Age of Sail. 

Head bounty, on the other hand, was paid to the crews of individual ships for sinking enemy vessels following the £5-per-head rule and divided equally between all crewmembers regardless of rank. To avoid lengthy disputes between captains, head bounties were divided equally between all ships present in the action where an enemy vessel was sunk. Due to the nature of modern naval warfare that had largely rendered boarding impracticable, the majority of prizes paid out by the Royal Navy during WWI were head bounties.

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Since I understand that the story you are researching this for isn't exactly historical, you can just assume for the sake of simplicity that the equal-share rule applies to all prize bounties regardless of origin, or conversely, use the traditional Age of Sail prize division rules with some adjustments to suit the crews of steamships.


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