# How do you get into the head of your MC?



## bdcharles (Oct 5, 2018)

Or any character for that matter. For my MC I've been listening to FKA Twigs to get me in the space.

What about you? What do you do to become them?


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## Theglasshouse (Oct 5, 2018)

When you have a conflict, protagonist versus antagonist, or a very strong adversity. Think of the thought, and feelings of the character. That will lead to action. List four feelings, four thoughts, then possible actions or traits. It is taught in schools this way. However dont show the feelings or thoughts, it just helps portray the character. I like to sometimes think the flaw of a character makes them think differently. That's how I come up with the goal which has three or two parts depending on how you think of it.

First there is the conflict. (action comes from the conflict)
Then the action.
then the goal.

Motivation comes from the subgoals.

I got this explanation from the transformational arc by dara marks.

Internal change is tied to theme. Here's how she breaks it down: heightened conflict creates jeapordy, jeopardy creates a need for a resolution, getting to the resolution establishes a goal, the struggle to achieve the goal creates dramatic tension. The most important thing to remember about plot is this: where conflict leads, action leads.

To deepen the plot the character fails to change or grow. Emotional reaction is to becoming concerned to becoming involved. Her whole book is on themes and on how to use flaws to maximum effect.

By pairing a flaw and strength it also helps to portray the flaw because that means there is more room for character development, and creating a premise. This template is often used in movies.


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## moderan (Oct 5, 2018)

I just start writing. Characters develop their own voices.


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## Jack of all trades (Oct 7, 2018)

My main characters are people I can slip into easily. Maybe it's laziness on my part, but I don't want to bother with a main character that is too much work.

Other characters are loosely based on people I know. So I think about those people. There's one character, though, that was inspired by a song.


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## wulfAlpha (Oct 7, 2018)

I like to take it a little different, and this even helps me better try to wrap my mind around the thoughts and feelings of my female characters. It helps make them more believable, or so I've been told. When I start with a new Main character, I interview them in my mind. I try to have them answer the questions the way a real person would. Doing this takes a tiny bit of effort beforehand, but I've often been surprised how fleshed out a character I can get just by doing this Once if I'm having a hard time getting into the mind of my character.
The types of questions I ask are getting to know you Questions like, "What are your interests?" "What's your dream job?" "What are your goals?" "Favorite Color?" ETC
Try it once. I'm sure it will help you.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 7, 2018)

I just work up character profiles and give them a backstory. After that, it's just a matter of putting that person in a particular situation, and with other people.

Give it a little time, and they'll work it out amongst themselves.


G.D.


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## Sir-KP (Oct 7, 2018)

This question is so deep I don't even know how to answer. lol.

Anyway, yeah, I think I unconsciously do just like Guard Dog said: build a character profile and backstory. 

Then try to see 'the world' from their point of view, mindset, behavior, attitude, and belief.


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## bdcharles (Oct 8, 2018)

Great responses. My writing starts with a person and is very character driven to the point where it risks having clearly-visualisable (to me) individuals standing about doing very little! And in order to reconnect with that individual I do things that remind me of them in some way, or jog them back into memory so I'm sort of feeling their presence more. It's easier to write their comings and goings then, for me.


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## bdcharles (Oct 8, 2018)

wulfAlpha said:


> I like to take it a little different, and this even helps me better try to wrap my mind around the thoughts and feelings of my female characters. It helps make them more believable, or so I've been told. When I start with a new Main character, I interview them in my mind. I try to have them answer the questions the way a real person would. Doing this takes a tiny bit of effort beforehand, but I've often been surprised how fleshed out a character I can get just by doing this Once if I'm having a hard time getting into the mind of my character.
> The types of questions I ask are getting to know you Questions like, "What are your interests?" "What's your dream job?" "What are your goals?" "Favorite Color?" ETC
> Try it once. I'm sure it will help you.



Yeah, definitely. I ran Proust's interview past my lot. One of them got up and walked out halfway through, leaving this automaton to blat questions to an empty chair...


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## SueC (Oct 8, 2018)

When I wrote my book and was asking friends to be readers, one of the questions I asked as a follow-up was "Who was your favorite character?" and was surprised at how many of my readers selected secondary characters and not main characters. I have way too much empathy for one person, but I am actually able to inject myself into the person I am writing about. I create the scenarios, and put them in it. I actually feel their pain, their discomfort, their joy. I cry a lot when I write. LOL!


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## Ralph Rotten (Oct 8, 2018)

I talk the scenes through, and the characters begin to emerge.  Literally talk [act] the scenes thru.  Especially the ones that require a lotta swearing.

Then like Moderan said; I write, and the characters come to life.
You really don't know your characters until you have written those first 100 pages.





















.


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## ironpony (Oct 8, 2018)

One thing that helps me is trying to keep the theme of your story in mind, and to make sure that your characters' actions reflect the theme, and what you want to say.  This may help you in getting inside your MC's head.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 8, 2018)

ironpony said:


> One thing that helps me is trying to keep the theme of your story in mind, and to make sure that your characters' actions reflect the theme, and what you want to say.  This may help you in getting inside your MC's head.



Your characters have to reflect themselves. Otherwise, they'll always seem "plastic" and hollow... like they're part of the background, and not moving through it, or interacting in it.

Think about a play, with people on a stage... All the props and backdrops are just there to let the audience know where the cast is. The actors themselves don't really need 'em, to do their job. ( The amount of CGI in movies today proves this. A tennis ball on a stick isn't a monster, after all. )

If the characters are right, it won't much matter what the story is, they'll still be interesting. And if they're not, the plot, theme, and story won't amount to a hill of beans.

But again, that's just my opinion.




G.D.

P.S. here's a spoiler review of the movie Venom.
Go watch it and see what these people have to say about it. You'll find the actors did the best they could, but the writers screwed up a great may things, including the characters either being 2-dimensonal, entirely pointless, or not what they should have been. Throw in a story that was way too chopped up, and the whole thing falls apart.


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## ironpony (Oct 8, 2018)

Oh yeah, they have to reflect themselves, but who they are, still has to be part of the theme, for the theme to work, don't they?


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## Guard Dog (Oct 8, 2018)

The "theme" of your story has NOTHING to do with who the characters are... It should simply be a situation they find themselves in.

If you want that character to act or behave in a certain way, then they have to be the kind of person that will act and behave in that way.

Pick any story like you want, with what ever theme you want... Then throw ME into it. I won't act the way YOU would if you were there. Ralph may or may not act anything like either of us would.  

You can do that 'til you run out of people to put into it, and it'll always be a bit different, even if some of those people end up with a similar result.

But if you try to hammer in a certain set of behaviors that don't fit with the character, it's just not gonna work. At least not in a believable way.




G.D.


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## ironpony (Oct 8, 2018)

Yep that makes sense, but when you design your main character from the ground up, shouldn't you design them, with the story's theme in mind?


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## Guard Dog (Oct 8, 2018)

My main character is a guy who just wants to build a house and mind his own business. That's it.

And he'll behave the same way in MY story as he will in YOURS, or somebody else's.

My story will still work just fine with a different kind/type of person in the lead, but it'll travel a different path getting to the end.

But it will still get to that end, because that's the only thing it can do, given the situation. He either succeeds, or he fails.

And a good portion of that outcome is not entirely up to him. There's other folks there that have a part to play. And again, how he behaves will have an influence on them... so there ya go.  

Watching all those interactions and decisions IS the story. And it doesn't matter if they're saving the world, the universe, or just an old historic house from demolition.

In the end, the story will shape them, so in any future endeavor with them, they may not behave exactly as they would in this story. But that's just part of character development.

And it's also a reason I put so much effort into their backstory; there has to be a reason for them to be who they are, and like they are.



G.D.


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## Theglasshouse (Oct 8, 2018)

I'm agreeing with iron pony. A character's values can be opposites for instance and embody the thematic message. You can write a thesis, synthesis, and antithesis. That way you can create some conflict. Values can be both good and evil.It's what the theme decides, what you believe. For example, pit two values, such as honest dishonest that are direct opposites, and if it is a value. Make characters more unique by giving them values they embody through action. A theme can be written in advance or after a story is completed. Think of more. I think fun and responsibility are good opposites. Pair them and you have polarity and story potential. Stories are about a good and evil struggle. Give them evil values or good values.


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## Jack of all trades (Oct 8, 2018)

Guard Dog said:


> My main character is a guy who just wants to build a house and mind his own business. That's it.
> 
> And he'll behave the same way in MY story as he will in YOURS, or somebody else's.
> 
> ...



Balderdash!!

Characters have a portion of the author inside them. That cannot be avoided. It should not be ignored, either.

Given character parameters and plot, five authors will create five different stories. The characters will behave differently.


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## Theglasshouse (Oct 8, 2018)

A different approach to create a character I discovered today while thinking. My oldest brother is a workaholic. What he most wants is free time. In a story I could plot it so that he fakes his death, and as a result, consequences follow. But he has free time now, and maybe gets a pension. Until he reveals the truth. He plans to work, but he does it the roundabout way.

Due to finances right now, my mom has always wanted to travel to europe. The possibilities are then endless for character creation. From the ordinary to bizarre. I intentionally seek loneliness. In alfred bester's short shory where there are genuis kids. They desire loneliness. But they are entitled to a fortune and dont care. A man from a collection agency wants to give back the money to the kids but cant find them. Subsequently when they do find them the kids murder them. I think that story made me a fan of bester, it is called star light star bright. It even begins with a nursery rhyme.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 9, 2018)

Theglasshouse said:


> A different approach to create a character I discovered today while thinking. My oldest brother is a workaholic. What he most wants is free time.



Yeah, my neighbor is like that... always working on something, then constantly commenting on how tired he is.

But when he gets any free time, he can't sit still, and is rushing around either doing something, or looking for something to do.

As for creating characters, there's a lot of ways to do it.

I tend to use history and old legends a lot... mixing and matching as different traits will fit together. Or taking bits and pieces of people I know or have known.

I don't think there's any right or wrong way, so long as you keep the character consistent in the story they're in. But at the same time, they have to be allowed to change, just as a real person would, given what they experience.

After all, timid people can be made fierce, with the right stimulus or situation, just as a very fierce person can become just the opposite. It just comes down to what they've experienced, and how it affects them.

The only thing that really matters is showing the reader _how_ the person is changed, and _why_.

A good example of that would be a movie I watched the other night; _Hostiles_, with Christian Bale, Rosamund Pike, and Wes Studi. It had to do with an Army officer that had to escort a family of American Indians back to their previous home. 
And at the beginning, the captain would've much preferred to just kill the lot of 'em and been done with it. But once it was all said and done, he ended up seeing them in a very different light, and was greatly affected by their deaths. He certainly wasn't the same person he started off as, by the time the story was over.

Now, if a person had come in just on the end of the movie... say, the last 20 minutes... it wouldn't have made much sense. But seeing the whole thing, it was perfectly understandable.

And that's exactly how I hope any any character I write works out; that the story justifies any alterations in them, in the end.

But to do that, I really do have to get inside their heads, and look at the situation through their eyes, and not necessarily my own.

Sometimes that's a lot easier than others though, and can be a real challenge to figure out how they could or should react or respond.




G.D.


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## ironpony (Oct 9, 2018)

Do you think that maybe though sometimes a writer is forced to have their character make a decision that they do no not want them to make but it's necessary to reach a certain part of the story?  Or they have to change something about the character around to reach certain plot points in the story?

For example, in my current story, my main character is a cop, but I want him to accomplish certain goals, that causes him to have to break the rules, such as entering a building to save someone without waiting for back up, or having to put someone he arrested in the back of his car, but then leave that person to go save someone, which a cop is not suppose to do.

So therefore, the character becomes a rule breaking cop, even though I did not intend for the character to be that way, but in order to do what I want him to do, to drive the plot, he unfortunately has to break the rules.

Or for example, for my villain, I was having trouble writing a way to catch him since he was able to outsmart everyone and become un-catchable it seemed.  I was told by others to look a the villains flaws to see how they could be exploited by the main character so he could be caught, but the problem I realized is, is that he has no legally exploitable flaws.  By legally exploitable, I mean that his flaws do not fit into what is legally required to build an admissible case.

So I was told to change the villains flaws around.  And even though a writer may not want to do something like that, perhaps it's necessary to make those changes, and 'kill your darlings', as the expression goes?


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## Guard Dog (Oct 9, 2018)

Ironpony... just write the the damn story already.

You keep waffling around and asking questions, that cop's gonna be retired and drawing a pension before you ever finish it.

And if it turns out it doesn't work, or just sucks... at least you'll have something to fix.




G.D.


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## Theglasshouse (Oct 9, 2018)

I saw a series one called Luther.


> Luther is a brilliant but emotionally impulsive detective who is tormented by the dark side of humanity while hunting down murderers. Once the self-destructive detective knows the killer's identity, it becomes a psychological duel between predator and prey


Maybe do the same thing. Sounds like the same sort of character for your story. In the series Luther, he has a chemical imbalance in his system that makes him even ally with criminals, so that he can catch them. It sounds very similar to your premise. If you need good flaws base it on him maybe if that is what you want. It's a good tv show. I forget what exactly but there is a chemical that he doesn't produce that makes him impulsive. Trust me on this when you can benefit from watching it.

I believe flaws are weaknesses, it's a theory I don't know fully well, I would say flaws can be tragic to my understanding if too powerful. Why not have the cop have someone kidnap his daughter in order to break the rules (to solve two crimes if he goes to the police they kill his daughter). He wants to break the law, his motive is someone else wants justice, and the cop could solve the case if he broke the rules. Maybe he would receive a pardon from the president. I don't know by the end of the movie. I am still studying movies. Craft books based on movie theory are better written than most craft books.

Flaw has parts according to Aristotle such as lack of recognition, and maybe reversal. Since I don't know the topic that well. I would say write whatever comes up in your mind. Morality also has to do with the flaw. 

Good luck it is your movie and story to write. Rewrite as many times as necessary is probably the simple way to interpret this.

Or how about a cop that wants revenge "injustice" but must play the justice advocate. (he must learn his moral lesson, or the moral argument and decide between good or evil). (theme)


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## ironpony (Oct 10, 2018)

Are you talking about my story?  If my cop had a daughter that would change too much around actually I feel, and would lead to a different ending.  I thought my cop could just break the rules cause he wants to save a helpless stranger from being killed.  Is that not enough?


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## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord (Oct 10, 2018)

@Ralph Rotten
 I do something similar. I daydream out scenes, sometimes actually getting up and acting them out, other times just mouthing the words to myself. Either way, it's not something I want to do in public. . .although sometimes I do by accident. Countless times I've had someone ask me, "Are you okay?" when I'm inventing an intense or sad scene, because I was accidentally showing the expressions of the characters on my face!


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## Kyle R (Oct 11, 2018)

ironpony said:


> So therefore, the character becomes a rule breaking cop, even though I did not intend for the character to be that way, but in order to do what I want him to do, to drive the plot, he unfortunately has to break the rules.


Readers (and audiences) love rule-breaking characters. Especially if they do it for a moral or noble purpose.

Plus, a cop character who follows the rules all the time would likely be boring. One who risks things by walking the "gray" path? Much more interesting. :encouragement:


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## bdcharles (Oct 12, 2018)

Kyle R said:


> Readers (and audiences) love rule-breaking characters. Especially if they do it for a moral or noble purpose.
> 
> Plus, a cop character who follows the rules all the time would likely be boring. One who risks things by walking the "gray" path? Much more interesting. :encouragement:



Indeed. This rule-breaking cop has just become more interesting to me. I love characters with flaws; I love _people _with flaws. Conversely my antagonist is irksomely perfect, which is why he had to take a kicking.


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## Annoying kid (Oct 12, 2018)

Can't say I see the appeal of a fictional protagonist who's so flawed they're a worse person than the reader. So flawed I don't even want them to win. I like leads with a certain degree of power fantasy thrown in. Then I think what did this character have to do to become this power fantasy or badass. Then how does that effect their personality and identity. Then there's two further questions:

How does the reader expect it to affect the character's personality? What does the reader expect from the character in general?

Then how can I subvert these expectations so the character can maintain interest by throwing surprises the reader's way.


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## ironpony (Oct 12, 2018)

bdcharles said:


> Indeed. This rule-breaking cop has just become more interesting to me. I love characters with flaws; I love _people _with flaws. Conversely my antagonist is irksomely perfect, which is why he had to take a kicking.



Well it's just that he is a rule breaker from the start, with no motivation that got him there, other than it's necessary for him to achieve his goals.  Where as most cops in real life are willing to accept defeat, if it means obeying the rules.



Annoying kid said:


> Can't say I see the appeal of a fictional protagonist who's so flawed they're a worse person than the reader. So flawed I don't even want them to win. I like leads with a certain degree of power fantasy thrown in. Then I think what did this character have to do to become this power fantasy or badass. Then how does that effect their personality and identity. Then there's two further questions:
> 
> How does the reader expect it to affect the character's personality? What does the reader expect from the character in general?
> 
> Then how can I subvert these expectations so the character can maintain interest by throwing surprises the reader's way.



But there are protagonists that are so flawed that they are worse than the reader, aren't there?  What about Walter White or Dexter Morgan for example?


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## Sir-KP (Oct 13, 2018)

Dude, your topic is cross-thread lol.

Anyway, having flaw doesn't mean being useless turd for the rest of the story. The hero has a purpose and a will to do something whatever it takes. Mistakes ought to happen, but a hero isn't a random bloke. They learn from mistakes and keep coming back to win. 

If the cop is a dork who keeps repeating mistakes and cries on every obstacles, then yeah, us readers eventually would want him to lose.


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## Annoying kid (Oct 13, 2018)

Mistakes happen, but I think forced errors are better than unforced errors unless it's a comedy. Don't want readers screaming in frustration at the character to take the logical choices.


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## Rattapallax (Oct 13, 2018)

Guard Dog said:


> I just work up character profiles and give them a backstory. After that, it's just a matter of putting that person in a particular situation, and with other people.
> 
> Give it a little time, and they'll work it out amongst themselves.
> 
> ...



Taking a break from not writing.  Still struggling.

Profiles and back stories are good.

However, there was a time when I said to a main character, "Who are you?  What do you want?"  I knew the big scene/thing that he was going to do but little else about him.  Then I thought, maybe that's it.  I went 3rd person objective and, instead of getting into his head and answering those questions, played into the mysterious aspect and even made him two characters in a way through seemingly contradicting actions and dialog.  Then came the big scene/thing and no denouement.  It worked well that one time.  The supporting characters defined themselves by what they saw when they tried to make the main character out.  It was like looking into a mirror for them.

Was there a moral to this?  I guess the moral is: if the creative process is giving you a blind spot, first consider it a blank space before you move to fill it.  And that's just a tad too long for a fortune cookie.  This probably didn't help but I tried.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 13, 2018)

How do ya get into the head of a character?  Simple; ya don't. You let them get into your head, and tell ya who they are.

Case in point, I created a new character today.

Her name is Kanie Okawaho Twolives, and she's the last full-blood daughter of a Mohawk chief. She grew up on a reservation, and hasn't had a very nice life.

She's basically a good person, but doesn't go about life in a "good" way. She's looking for something, but not even she knows what... or if there's any hope of finding it.

And now I have a lot of research to do... About Mohawk Indians, reservations, and a lot'a other stuff I haven't even thought of yet.

Once I'm done, Kanie will have told me everything I need to know about her.

...And that's how I go about getting into the heads of my characters.

Simple, no? 8-[

Edit: She's already jabbering away... She killed her older brother. He and a bunch of his buddies got drunk and went on a "raiding party". Turns out the party they raided happened to be one Kanie was attending. 

Since she doesn't care much for rapists, she kind'a went ballistic on the Raiders... didn't find out her own brother was one of 'em 'til after the fact.

...Masks. They can get you into so much trouble sometimes. 

Yours, and other people's.


G.D.


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## Newman (Oct 16, 2018)

bdcharles said:


> Or any character for that matter. For my MC I've been listening to FKA Twigs to get me in the space.
> 
> What about you? What do you do to become them?



Give them a strong belief in opposition to another character with an equally strong belief.


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## Ralph Rotten (Oct 16, 2018)

Better to base them on a real person.
When I create characters I either use a specific person I have known, or write the part for a specific actor/actress, or use someone from real life.
In the book being released this month, I needed a scumbag character for the president.
You can prolly guess who I used for my inspiration on that character.


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## ironpony (Oct 16, 2018)

Guard Dog said:


> How do ya get into the head of a character?  Simple; ya don't. You let them get into your head, and tell ya who they are.
> 
> Case in point, I created a new character today.
> 
> ...



This is the part I have trouble with, as since my characters are made up, they cannot tell me who they are, since they are not real, and are open to alternatives all the time, it seems.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 16, 2018)

ironpony said:


> This is the part I have trouble with, as since my characters are made up, they cannot tell me who they are, since they are not real, and are open to alternatives all the time, it seems.



You do realize that everything I posted in #34 up there is made up... right?

There is no Kanie Okawaho Twolives anywhere but in my mind.

But once I put her in a story, she's gonna behave like herself.  Not me, or someone else.

Now, I will do a lot of research, and I will make a shit-ton of notes. And I will read things that most people won't see how they relate to this person, but very much will.

In the end I'll know her as well as I do anybody I've ever met or will meet.

That's just how I do things.

Because it's the characters that make the story interesting and worth reading, not some clever plot with two-dimensional characters that don't amount to much more than sock-puppets for the author's ego.

So if the characters you're making up don't talk to _you_, then they aren't gonna talk to the reader either.

And if that's the case, then you need to either learn how to create better characters... or find some other way to spend your time besides trying to write.


...but that's just my opinion. Others might hold a different view.





G.D.


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## ironpony (Oct 16, 2018)

Oh okay.  I don't think that it's the characters being bad for not talking to me, I just have to figure out what they would and wouldn't do.  Mainly at first I feel like I know what they would do, but then readers will tell me no, this character would not do that, and would do this instead.  So then that makes me think maybe the readers know my characters better than I do for some reason.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 16, 2018)

Ironpony, it doesn't sound like YOU are writing anything. It sounds like you're just taking dictation from these "reader" who are actually creating the story.
I mean... you don't know the characters... you don't know what they would or wouldn't do... You're being told what to do or not to do by everyone else.

Sorry, just doesn't sound like a hell of a lot of creativity coming from you.

But then, if you want a story created by a flash mob, I guess that's your business.

One way or the other, I think I'm completely through talking to you about "your" story now.

So... 'bye bye.



G.D.


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## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord (Oct 16, 2018)

@ironpony I think you've actually asked a good question: does the writer know the character better, or does the reader? There's definitely been times when I as a reader have thought, "Hold on! X wouldn't do that!" There's no getting away from the fact the character as exists in the head of a particular reader might be different than the character as exists in the head of the writer (the large amount of fanfiction that's written by readers demonstrates this well). 

Maybe the problem is not that you don't know your characters, but that they haven't been sufficiently developed. Maybe there's things _you _know about the characters that are not being displayed on the page. Or, on the other hand, maybe some of your readers are just misinterpreting what you've written. That happens. Even to someone who's barely been published (like me), it happens. The only thing you can do is keep improving your writing and start to develop an internal meter for quality, instead of always having to rely on external ones.


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## Ralph Rotten (Oct 16, 2018)

As the writer, I know my characters better than my readers...even if I can't always remember their names.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 17, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> As the writer, I know my characters better than my readers...even if I can't always remember their names.



I've never been good at remembering names. Faces, on the other hand, I don't forget.

This probably due to all the years of drawing and such, and also why I spend so much effort developing the characters in the first place; so it's all written down and I don't have to remember it.

I'd be in serious trouble if I lost all my notes. But thanks to multiple backups, chances of that happening are slim. 

I also have a great many unused characters that are simply waiting around to be used wherever and whenever needed.





G.D.


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## bdcharles (Oct 17, 2018)

ironpony said:


> This is the part I have trouble with, as since my characters are made up, they cannot tell me who they are, since they are not real, and are open to alternatives all the time, it seems.



What's the difference, in your mind, between someone that you know who exists, and someone that you know who doesn't? The same receptors in your brain can be fired by either. All you have to do is think about them for a bit.


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## bdcharles (Oct 17, 2018)

Annoying kid said:


> Can't say I see the appeal of a fictional protagonist who's so flawed they're a worse person than the reader. So flawed I don't even want them to win. I like leads with a certain degree of power fantasy thrown in. Then I think what did this character have to do to become this power fantasy or badass. Then how does that effect their personality and identity.



Surely Patrick Bateman in _American Psycho_ is such a character. Or what's-his-face from _Lolita_.


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## bdcharles (Oct 17, 2018)

Guard Dog said:


> How do ya get into the head of a character?  Simple; ya don't. You let them get into your head, and tell ya who they are.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



Ooh, I like it! I perceive my characters as I do real people - I spare them a similar amount of thought and the contents of those thoughts run along the same lines. It frequently borders on obsession...


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## Sir-KP (Oct 17, 2018)

ironpony said:


> This is the part I have trouble with, as since my characters are made up, they cannot tell me who they are, since they are not real, and are open to alternatives all the time, it seems.



I agree with what bdcharles said here.



bdcharles said:


> What's the difference, in your mind, between someone that you know who exists, and someone that you know who doesn't? The same receptors in your brain can be fired by either. All you have to do is think about them for a bit.



Except I would say you should _understand_ your characters even better than you do to someone who exists. Why is that?

Let's pick a friend of yours. As much as you know them, I'm 100% sure there are something they are hiding from you or you simply don't know about. He/she is a result of someone else's love juice born from the womb of their mother. It's acceptable if you don't fully know them.

Now let's say you have a fictional character called John. Then you should know John from head to toe, inside out more than anyone else. Because John was born from your mind. He is a product of your mind, not someone else's steamy activity. You're supposed to tell them who they are from their personality to hair style to eye color. Not the otherwise.


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## bdcharles (Oct 17, 2018)

Sir-KP said:


> Except I would say you should _understand_ your characters even better than you do to someone who exists. Why is that?



Yeah! I'll go with that. As writer-gods, we know all their secret travails...

Although I would argue that we (I) don't "tell" characters who they are. Telling is a conscious act. My characters seem to come from my unconscious. Can I even - philosophy incoming - rightly assert that "I" created them? Where do I stop and where does my subconscious brain begin? If I lost a hand, would "I" be lessened or would I simply be down one hand?


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## Guard Dog (Oct 17, 2018)

bdcharles said:


> Can I even - philosophy incoming - rightly assert that "I" created them? Where do I stop and where does my subconscious brain begin?



Well, since I feel like we all pretty much create ourselves, by deciding how we're going to respond to certain stimuli/situations - either at the time they occurred, or in how we perceive them after the fact - then I can't really see where it makes much difference.

Especially since, for all we know, the characters are nothing more than some aspect of ourselves deciding to come out and play. You know, sort of a "safer" multiple personality disorder?





bdcharles said:


> If I lost a hand, would "I" be lessened or would I simply be down one hand?



Again, it depends; did you lose the good one that worked properly, or that f**ked-up one that never did what you wanted it to, the way it was supposed to? :devilish:

One way or the other, I'd have to say your days as a piano player were probably over. :wink:





G.D.


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## Annoying kid (Oct 17, 2018)

Sir-KP said:


> I agree with what bdcharles said here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As long as the character that comes out of that isn't an unfocused collection of trivia.


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## ironpony (Oct 17, 2018)

bdcharles said:


> What's the difference, in your mind, between someone that you know who exists, and someone that you know who doesn't? The same receptors in your brain can be fired by either. All you have to do is think about them for a bit.



Well I guess what I mean is, is that characters are in fiction are much easier to change compared to people in real life.  So therefore, fictional characters are much less predictable, and it's hard for me to predict what they may do compared to real people, if that makes sense.


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## bdcharles (Oct 17, 2018)

ironpony said:


> Well I guess what I mean is, is that characters are in fiction are much easier to change compared to people in real life.  So therefore, fictional characters are much less predictable, and it's hard for me to predict what they may do compared to real people, if that makes sense.



My point is that there need be no difference between real people and fictional characters in terms of how one might perceive them, any more than there would be between two real lifers. The issue may simply be that you don't know them well enough to be able to say what sort of people they are. If it sounds like I'm being daft or flippant, I'm not, but given that my writing generally starts with - or significantly rests upon - characters, so my approach will flow alot from them. So perhaps you need to think about your chars - even when not writing. What would they do in this or that situation? What would it be like if one of them came into your place of work or residence or study? Live alongside them as you do real people, if only in your head. Live vicariously through them.

The alternative, I guess, is character sheets. Some people do an admirable job with them. Not me though. I'd end up with a story about cardboard cutouts and would enjoy it not one iota.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 17, 2018)

Annoying kid said:


> As long as the character that comes out of that isn't an unfocused collection of trivia.



I know real people that seem to be nothing more than "unfocused collections of trivia"... That's just their personality.

They're shallow, never seem to have any original thoughts or ideas, and generally lack much imagination.

Even for that, they almost always try to pretend they're something they're not. 

... they sort'a come across as living, breathing, two-dimensional characters.

Which gets right back to my "masks" comment earlier.

So, you don't know anybody like that?




G.D.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 17, 2018)

bdcharles said:


> What would it be like if one of them came into your place of work or residence or study? Live alongside them as you do real people, if only in your head.



I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only crazy person here that does this. :glee:

Each and every character I come up with has an entire other story that I could write/tell that could potentially be more interesting than the one I'm putting them in. It just so happens that the one I'm currently writing is where the reader first meets them.

But I've known them quite a while longer than that.

It's certainly not that I can't tell the difference between real and imagined people... I'm not quite that far gone yet. But it does strike me as being a lot like the fans of various movie and TV characters that don't seem to grasp that the actor/actress is NOT their favorite character. Only in my case, it's in reverse; I see a character on the screen as being a separate entity, with a living person "channeling" them, more or less.

With writing, I just see the author as the one doing the channeling, giving voice to these other people that no one else can see or hear.

Hope that makes some sort of sense.




G.D.


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## ironpony (Oct 17, 2018)

Well now that I think about it, when people tell me my characters wouldn't do that, and they would do this instead, perhaps I am just not doing a good job of convincing the reader that they are capable of doing what I want them to.  If I feel I have to change a character around a bit to hit a certain plot turn, is that bad?


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## bdcharles (Oct 18, 2018)

ironpony said:


> Well now that I think about it, when people tell me my characters wouldn't do that, and they would do this instead, perhaps I am just not doing a good job of convincing the reader that they are capable of doing what I want them to.  If I feel I have to change a character around a bit to hit a certain plot turn, is that bad?



No, just make sure you write in a reason that they do change.


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## ironpony (Oct 18, 2018)

Oh yeah that's there, it's just that what if the readers think that the reason is not enough, but at the same time, you don't want to cram or force more reasons in?


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## Annoying kid (Oct 18, 2018)

ironpony said:


> Well now that I think about it, when people tell me my characters wouldn't do that, and they would do this instead...



I don't think people are telling you that. They're giving you suggestions on what your characters could do and why doing it the other way doesn't work as well (aka normal critique) and you hear it as them saying what your character would and wouldn't do.


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## Kyle R (Oct 21, 2018)

bdcharles said:


> ... I would argue that we (I) don't "tell" characters who they are. Telling is a conscious act. My characters seem to come from my unconscious. Can I even - philosophy incoming - rightly assert that "I" created them? Where do I stop and where does my subconscious brain begin?



I think "directing" is an apt term here. As in: we direct our characters' thoughts and actions—though they sometimes disagree/revolt/mutiny.

Actually, I like it best when they _do_ resist direction; it means they're taking on a personality/life of their own. It also means you're learning them well enough to recognize when your own ideas are out of character.

Some of my favorite character moments have come from surprising turns that I didn't expect until I'd written them down and thought, _Yeah, that's _so_ like them to do that!_ :encouragement:


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## Guard Dog (Nov 5, 2018)

I just posted this on another thread, concerning a fight scene, but it's probably more appropriate and useful here. It's concerning this fight.

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When I first wrote it, I had Megan and Richard going at it, with Megan beating the crap out of him in the end, then J.D. croaking him after Richard ran off at the mouth while Meg was calling the police..

The problem was, J.D. wasn't having any of that. He's just not the sort to stand there and watch, given the circumstances. He was already set to fight the second Richard started yelling, seeing that as a red flag. And when Megan busted Richard for thievery, and told him to ether shape up or get ready to take a whippin', that was the end of J.D. just being an observer if things went sideways... which they did.


So, I left all of the original cues in place, but this time let Meg assume Richard would back down and get back to business... especially with their client standing there watching and ready.

Edit: I have to add that Megan would likely have been right, anywhere but J.D.'s place. But due to the weirdness going on there in recent days - which she knew nothing of - it just wasn't gonna happen.

And Richard waiting until Megan had turned her back and resuming work when he pulled the gun just sealed the deal; J.D. pounced and Meg just didn't get any of that fight. ( Though she does get plenty of brawling in later on in the story, I assure you. But then what would you expect from someone who was Boudica in a previous life? The mother of horses, or "Horse Mama" is not to be trifled with or angered, if ya know what's good for ya.)

So that is the evolution of what you've read, and at least one instance of a character not allowing the story to go in a particular way.
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Anyway, that's how the characters get into _MY_ head, and tell me what they will or will not do.



G.D.


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