# Judge a Book by Its Start?



## EmmaSohan (Aug 9, 2015)

Can you judge how much you would like a book from reading the start? Or -- same thing -- what advice would you give to young readers about this?

I started thinking about this when I tried to move my first good line to the start of my WIP. It was a better first line, but without the setting or knowing the character, the scene lost a lot. I have given the advice to start at the first interesting point, but now I am thinking that's wrong. (It's back to being 400 words in.)

When I look at other books I am seeing the same thing -- King not starting with his first great event; another author moving a great scene to the prologue and turning it into a mediocre scene.

Thoughts?


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## InstituteMan (Aug 9, 2015)

I think beginnings are hard. I also think beginnings are more important than ever. 

When I was a kid. There were only so many books in the sections of the library I was interested in reading, so I was damn well going to read each one of them. A slow start wouldn't put me off. Now, though, there's essentially an infinite supply of books available to me online, so I just don't get past a bad first page very often.


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## am_hammy (Aug 9, 2015)

As a kid I was more concerned with how the cover of the book looked. If I didn't like it, or wasn't a fan of the title I wasn't going to read it. I was hooked on Arthur, Amelia Bedelia, and Madeline books.

To be honest, when I read a book now, unless I can tell how it turns out just by reading the summary (i.e. a typical one book fantasy or a romance, etc.) I will read the last couple of pages. That's horrible, but I want to like how the book ends. It doesn't always have to be typically "fantastic" but I want to feel closure when I read a book. Often when I look for new books to read, I search for books that are either stand-alones or are series that are almost complete or done. I'm terribly impatient.

However, if I am reading a book on a whim and giving it a chance, I will try to get through at least the first couple of chapters. Sometimes you have to push through the choppy beginning to find the golden nuggets. Something I wish I had more growing up, is for my parents to have pushed me to read things I wasn't necessarily thrilled about from the start. I came into reading on my own but I've never been too adventurous outside of what caught my interest. There's also been times in my adult life where I've read a book thinking I would hate it and I actually loved, just had to motivate myself a little more.


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## LeeC (Aug 9, 2015)

Even when someone has recommended a book, I want a look at the first few pages. It's not so much the story I'm gauging, but rather the writing skill in my estimation. 

Actually books that start off with wham-bang action aren't what attract me, but rather how well they seem to pull me into the story with a mix of characterization complemented with trickled in setting for the mind's eye. It helps if that something is familiar. A very few have worked with both. 

My tastes will differ preferring simplicity but some examples of opening lines are:

Aldo Leopold's A Sand County Almanac (January thaw):
"Each year, after the midwinter blizzards, there comes a night of thaw when the tinkle of dripping water is heard in the land. It brings strange stirrings, not only to creatures abed for the night, but to some who have been asleep for the winter."

V. S. Naipaul's Miguel Street (Bogart)
"Every morning when he got up Hat would sit on the banister of his back verandah and shout across, 'What happening there, Bogart?'"

Willem Lange's Where Does the Wild Goose Go? (Objects Infused with Life)
"I'd like to meet the man who hung the head on my wood-splitting maul, because he did a beautiful job." 

and again (My Boot's On Fire!)
"My left boot burst suddenly into flame — vigorous, bright, petroleum product-fueled flame. The people around me scattered helper-skelter in alarm. 'I really hope,' I thought to myself, 'I really hope this is the low point of my day.'"


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## shadowwalker (Aug 10, 2015)

I'm 'forgiving' for the first few pages, but I've generally found that if the writing drags much further than that, there's a very good chance it won't get any better. I don't need a slam bang _exciting _beginning, but if it doesn't at least pique my curiosity, why continue to see if it ever gets there?


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## Terry D (Aug 10, 2015)

EmmaSohan said:


> Can you judge how much you would like a book from reading the start? Or -- same thing -- what advice would you give to young readers about this?
> 
> I started thinking about this when I tried to move my first good line to the start of my WIP. It was a better first line, but without the setting or knowing the character, the scene lost a lot. I have given the advice to start at the first interesting point, but now I am thinking that's wrong. (It's back to being 400 words in.)
> 
> ...



What do you mean by 'first great event'? Or, 'first interesting point'? The opening of a book doesn't have to explode on the page, but it does have to create questions in the reader's mind which will keep them reading. What you are talking about here is, of course, the 'hook'. The hook can happen in the first line, the first paragraph, or the first scene, but (in  my opinion) that's about as long as you should wait. If the opening hook doesn't happen until later in your story, I'd suggest that the stuff prior to it is unnecessary -- no matter how much you might like it.

Let's look at a few best sellers:

Stephen King's opening line from _Finder's Keeper's_; *"Wake up, genius."* -- Three words creating high tension. Everyone has experienced that sarcastic use of the word 'genius'. It's always used condescendingly, and now we want to know why? Also notice that King breaks a common writing 'rule' by opening a book with a character waking up.

From Brad Thor's _Code of Conduct_; *When word leaked that the President had been taken to Bethesda Naval Hospital for observation, panic set in. If the President of the United States wasn't safe from the virus, no one was*. -- One short paragraph and Thor has laid out the scale of the problem (no one was safe) and its basic nature (a virus).

From Gillian Flynn's _Gone Girl_: *When I think of my wife, I always think of her head. -- *Not her eyes, not her smile, but her head*.* That's unusual and keeps the reader going to find out why. As Flynn's opening continues, the imagery the character uses gets darker, and more impersonal comparing his wife's head to a "shiny, hard, corn kernel" and "a riverbed fossil". The first three paragraphs of this book demand the reader keep reading.

A book doesn't have to open with a major plot-point, or dramatic action taking place -- if it can that's great, an instant crisis is a hell of a hook, but the opening scene (or even sentence) must give the reader a reason to read the next scene, and that scene needs to motivate for the next and so on. The first line of your book should be a "good line", in fact, every line should be a good line, there's no room in a story for anything less. Thinking there is, is how boring reading is built.


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## Kyle R (Aug 10, 2015)

Terry D said:
			
		

> The first line of your book should be a "good line", in fact, every line should be a good line, there's no room in a story for anything less.


Bingo.

Grab your reader by the throat from the opening line, and don't let go until it's over. Leave them wide-eyed, bruised, and gasping for more. 

Metaphorically speaking, of course! Don't run into a bookstore and physically strangle your readers. Save that for the critics.


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## EmmaSohan (Aug 10, 2015)

Kyle R said:


> Bingo.
> 
> Grab your reader by the throat from the opening line, and don't let go until it's over. Leave them wide-eyed, bruised, and gasping for more.
> 
> Metaphorically speaking, of course! Don't run into a bookstore and physically strangle your readers. Save that for the critics.



Augie Odenkirk had a 1997 Datsun that still ran well in spite of high mileage, but gas was expensive, especially for a man with no job, and City Center was at the far side of town, so he decided to take the last bus of the night.

Should he drive or take the bus. This is about as boring a start as one could write. The readers aren't getting bruised or strangled. After plowing through pages of conversation that means nothing to the plot of the book, we get to a horrific scene. According to what you said, this is a bad book and you would advise people not to read it?

King was (temporarily) bringing these people to life, so that when they were killed, the horror was that much stronger. Do you really think that made his book worse?

I mean, except for the violence, what you said sounded good. It was what I believed. But is it practical? I am now wondering if it isn't.


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## InstituteMan (Aug 11, 2015)

EmmaSohan said:


> Augie Odenkirk had a 1997 Datsun that still ran well in spite of high mileage, but gas was expensive, especially for a man with no job, and City Center was at the far side of town, so he decided to take the last bus of the night.
> 
> Should he drive or take the bus. This is about as boring a start as one could write. The readers aren't getting bruised or strangled. After plowing through pages of conversation that means nothing to the plot of the book, we get to a horrific scene. According to what you said, this is a bad book and you would advise people not to read it?



I'm not a fan of horror, but I think that opening is good enough to keep reading. In one deft sentence you have an obviously critical decision that seemed mundane and relatable. You also learn about a bit about a character (unemployed, frugal) and the geography involved. 

A gripping opening makes promises a reader wants to see fulfilled. It doesn't deliver the goods right away.


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## Kyle R (Aug 11, 2015)

EmmaSohan said:


> This is about as boring a start as one could write. The readers aren't getting bruised or strangled. . . . According to what you said, this is a bad book and you would advise people not to read it?



Well, not exactly. I wasn't advising readers. The only advice I would ever give a reader is: read what you enjoy reading. :encouragement:

As for writing? Your reader could be doing a whole slew of things besides reading your book. Some readers—agents and editors, for example—are actively looking for the first reason to put your story down. I try to keep that in mind when crafting my opening lines.

Every reader is different, of course, and some have more patience or open-mindedness than others. Me? I'm impatient. I'm picky. I know what I like and I know what I don't. I will put a book down if the opening doesn't grab me.

Sometimes this means I miss out on those slow-burning stories, unfortunately—the ones that start off with a fizzle that turns to fireworks. Usually, though, it means I can already tell that this isn't the kind of story I'm looking for.

Just like if I were to take a bite of a sandwich. If I don't like the taste of it? I'm probably not going to keep eating it. Especially when I know a great sandwich shop around the corner.

What grabs me, though, might be entirely different than what grabs you, or what grabs someone else. That's the beauty of it—and the puzzle of it, as well!


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## Pluralized (Aug 11, 2015)

> Can you judge how much you would like a book from reading the start? Or -- same thing -- what advice would you give to young readers about this?



Depends on the mood, attention span at the moment, and how much of that unspoken commitment of trust I'm giving that particular author. In your example above, you've only got 'King' and 'other.' It might be unfair, but generally with SK's stuff, I'm willing to trample through a few pages of dull writing to get to the good stuff. 11/22/63 required just a few pages of dullness before we were time-traveling. I seem to recall The Stand starting with a wicked-gnarly scene at a gas station, where these bloated and diseased people in a car come rolling up. Pretty good start to that one. Eyes of the Dragon started slooooow. But I trusted that the story would get great, and it did. They always do. 

Gaiman puts you through a slow start every now and then. So does Murakami. Dean Koontz usually gets right to it, and throws you right into the fire. So does Lee Child. And Grisham. Eco's first line of 'Foucault's Pendulum,' one of the slowest, muddiest novels I've ever read, starts off with 'And that was when I saw the pendulum.' Great, gripping first line, but the thing just tanks after that. 

So, yeah - I always judge the book by the first few pages. Until I'm twenty pages in and have forgotten about it and rolling merrily down the dirt-road of storyland. Most books I'm inclined to pick up and read on purpose don't let me down (or at least not to the extent that I feel somehow wronged). The ones that start out with a bang are just way more satisfying earlier on and my only advice to a young reader would be to have patience and get through twenty pages before you cast the book aside and move on. And for writers, you've got to aspire to write a compelling opening scene, I believe, or you're doing something wrong.


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## Terry D (Aug 11, 2015)

EmmaSohan said:


> Augie Odenkirk had a 1997 Datsun that still ran well in spite of high mileage, but gas was expensive, especially for a man with no job, and City Center was at the far side of town, so he decided to take the last bus of the night.
> 
> Should he drive or take the bus. This is about as boring a start as one could write. The readers aren't getting bruised or strangled. After plowing through pages of conversation that means nothing to the plot of the book, we get to a horrific scene. According to what you said, this is a bad book and you would advise people not to read it?
> 
> ...



Let's see... In that opening sentence from _Mr. Mercedes,_ King manages to give the reader a character they can relate to (who can't relate to being out of work and needing to make decisions based on economics?) and put him in an unusual situation (traveling across town on the last bus of the night). This is a master at work. Even the name, Augie Odenkirk, sounds like a nice guy -- I mean who wouldn't like a guy named Augie, right? And poor Augie is out of work, we can care about that at least a little -- and that caring is the throat grab Kyle was talking about. Now our buddy Augie is heading across town in the middle of the night. Why? And since this book is a thriller we start wondering what's going to happen to him.

This sentence does even more than provide a hook (albeit a gentle one), it starts to give us setting (a city large enough to have mass transit), and time frame (a 1997 Datsun is an old car, so the story is contemporary). That's a lot of work for 47 words. The idea of starting in the middle of action doesn't mean every story needs to open with the car plowing through the crowd. It means opening with your characters doing something that moves the story forward. In this case we are on the bus with Augie as he heads to his doom. King could have started with Augie back at home checking the Datsun's gas gauge, or having a cup of keep-me-awake coffee while he checks the bus schedule, but he didn't (because that would be boring) he introduces us to Odenkirk in transit, _in motion_.


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## EmmaSohan (Aug 11, 2015)

Terry D said:


> ... -- and that caring is the throat grab Kyle was talking about.



I had not expected this turn of events! Kyle, can you confirm that the start of Mr. Mercedes was the kind of throat grabbing you were thinking of?

What about these? Too much? Trying to hard? Discouraging?

It is an unusually warm night in July, but I'm shivering badly as I stand on the substantial gray stone terrace outside my apartment. I'm looking out over glorious San Franscisco and I have my service revolver pressed against the side of my temple.
"Goddamn you, God!" I whisper.

"You're going to die." I tell her this not to be cruel, but out of compassion.

I'd just gotten Connie Nix's blouse unbuttoned when the bomb went off.

Death was like a bowl of soup.

In the face of calamity, the Colliers' first impulse was to overspend at the bookstore.


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## Terry D (Aug 12, 2015)

EmmaSohan said:


> I had not expected this turn of events! Kyle, can you confirm that the start of Mr. Mercedes was the kind of throat grabbing you were thinking of?
> 
> What about these? Too much? Trying to hard? Discouraging?



I don't know if these are your examples, or openings from published works -- I don't recognize any of them -- but I'll give it a go.



> It is an unusually warm night in July, but I'm shivering badly as I stand on the substantial gray stone terrace outside my apartment. I'm looking out over glorious San Franscisco and I have my service revolver pressed against the side of my temple.
> "Goddamn you, God!" I whisper.



That, to me, is trying too hard. It reminds me of an actor on a stage overacting. I don't want to get into the adjective/adverb debate here, but you could take all of them out of this bit and have a much stronger opening.



> "You're going to die." I tell her this not to be cruel, but out of compassion."



Not bad. A nice subtle hook. I'd keep reading.



> I'd just gotten Connie Nix's blouse unbuttoned when the bomb went off.



This I like a lot. It doesn't take itself too seriously, and it is an example of starting with a bang.



> Death was like a bowl of soup.



Meh... The next line would make up my mind. It could go either way.



> In the face of calamity, the Colliers' first impulse was to overspend at the bookstore.



Again, this one alone doesn't do anything for me. It could roll into something really nice, but it could also, easily, spin into being pretentious.


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## Schrody (Aug 12, 2015)

am_hammy said:


> To be honest, when I read a book now, unless I can tell how it turns out just by reading the summary (i.e. a typical one book fantasy or a romance, etc.) I will read the last couple of pages.



Don't read my book like that, I'm fond of twists :lol:

But seriously, I've spoiled a book or two that way (I used to do it too).


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## K.S. Crooks (Aug 14, 2015)

How I decide to read a book from an author new to me is 1) the cover and title need to catch my eye 2) the back description needs to be interesting 3) a scan of the first chapter needs to keep my interest. If these conditions are not met I will probably not buy the book. Keeping my interest doesn't necessarily mean action. It includes new settings, exciting characters or new creatures. I never start a new book looking for a singular great line. I think focusing on have the "perfect opening line" or amazing phrase is overrated. Of all the books I've read only two of them have a opening line I remember. "Call me Ismael."  " Once there were four children whose names were Peter, Susan, Edmund and Lucy." I can't remember to opening to The Odyssey, but I love the story.


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## J Anfinson (Aug 14, 2015)

If it's an author I've learned to trust I'll give them more leeway if it doesn't grab me right away. But if I don't know I can trust you, you've got to pass my blurb test, first page test, and I might even read the whole first chapter just to be sure I'm willing to take the chance. I sample far more than I buy, both at bookstores and online. 

It doesn't have to be a wham bang beginning, but it should interest me in some way.


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## JasonNewton (Aug 15, 2015)

The most important thing is to have avery good first line.


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## EmmaSohan (Aug 15, 2015)

To me, reading the blurb makes the book less interesting.

I don't know what I am supposed to learn anyway. The best blurb I ever read was for a James Patterson book I did not like. And the blurb for my favorite book ever makes the book sound uninteresting. (The Fault in Our Stars)

I want to read the book that's so good it got published without a good blurb.

Exception: Any book with vampires, then I wished I had read the blurb.


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## Blade (Aug 15, 2015)

InstituteMan said:


> When I was a kid. There were only so many books in the sections of the library I was interested in reading, so I was damn well going to read each one of them. A slow start wouldn't put me off. Now, though, there's essentially an infinite supply of books available to me online, so I just don't get past a bad first page very often.



:grin: I believe that I was not even aware that quitting on it was an option.

I am willing to go through quite a few pages that don't come across as inspiring in the hope that things will eventually get set up and unwind to my satisfaction. If the author is clearly not too bright :stupidr the characters are obnoxious I will drop it pronto. The fact is that there are more good reads out there than you may have time or opportunity to get to so why stick in with drivel?:blue:


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## Riis Marshall (Aug 22, 2015)

Hello Folks

Starting bits - the first line, the first paragraph, the first page - interest me to the point I've started a collection of ones I think are really great:

_A Christmas Carol_, Charles Dickens,

_All the King's Men_, Robert Penn Warren (I've cited this one in other posts),

_Heart of Darkness_, Joseph Conrad, and one I came across just the other day

_The Shepherd of the Hills_, Harold Bell Wright.

Yes I check out cover art, back cover blurbs and my experience with the author but mostly I start reading and see how it goes. If I'm not hooked within five pages or so, I stop reading.

All the best with your writing.

Warmest regards
Riis


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## escorial (Aug 22, 2015)

for me reputation is what makes me read a book..usually famous authors and i have tried to read a few books that i got well into before i abandoned them..can't think of one book of fiction i've had a quick read in and bought because it interested me...


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## RayneSaikoro (Aug 23, 2015)

Indeed the beginning of your book should hook the reader and make a good first impression. Think of it this way: chances are high that your published book will eventually become (or even start as) an e-book. Most potential customers will read the preview pages before investing in your book, thus you want those first few pages to be engaging. Same goes for traditional books, really. 

You said the scene lost a lot when you cut out the beginning because the reader no longer knew the character. No problem. Instead of establishing your protagonist's entire personality and backstory within the first few paragraphs, you want to hint at it and intrigue the reader. You don't need to start your story off with a gun fight or a car chase. Instead it can be something more subtle. Something that makes the audience uncomfortable or curious. Maybe your character is cradling a baby with one hand while holding a cigarette in the other. Whenever he talks, he exhales cigarette smoke in the baby's face nonchalantly. Try revisiting your original intro and add some uncomfortable detail about the protagonist or setting to spice it up. Alternatively find clever ways to work character details into the more interesting scene. You can establish character using so many techniques: description (the state of their clothing and hair), their dialect, their choice of wording, their accessories, what they are doing while they talk, who they associated with, where they are, what vehicle they are driving. If you're really struggling, leave the beginning alone and move on with your story. Some detail may appear later in the story that might inspire a better beginning.


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## Newman (Aug 24, 2015)

EmmaSohan said:


> Can you judge how much you would like a book from reading the start?



One shouldn't, but most do. The question is how long will the audience wait.

The answer is to make it good from the very first word.


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## Arrakis (Dec 11, 2015)

First off, I am not an easy reader to please--by any means. That said, however, unlike most readers, whom are rooted to a single genre, I'll read almost anything.

Personally, I tend to judge a book by its title. A book's title can say a lot about the author's imagination. That said, if the title is generic or doesn't catch mine eye, there's a good chance I'll ignore it. Also, the cover letter needs to be intriguing and mysterious.

Past that point, I can usually tell right away whether or not I'll like a book just by reading the first chapter. First impressions are vital, and readers are fickle--especially me. That said, in the beginning you HAVE to grip the reader like a hawk. Otherwise, the remaining pages may as well be blank. As I've said many times to mediocre novelists I've critiqued: you don't have to eat the whole fruit to know it's rotten--so keep it ripe.



Terry D said:


> ...The opening of a book doesn't have to explode  on the page, but it does have to create questions in the reader's mind  which will keep them reading. What you are talking about here is, of  course, the 'hook'. The hook can happen in the first line, the first  paragraph, or the first scene, but (in  my opinion) that's about as long  as you should wait. If the opening hook doesn't happen until later in  your story, I'd suggest that the stuff prior to it is unnecessary -- no  matter how much you might like it.
> 
> ...
> ...
> ...



Definitely have to agree with these points. In mine books, I always go all out when writing the prologue. In mine fantasy and sci-fi books, I love to start with a surprising crisis--all the while leaving a myriad of unanswered questions that will keep the reader flipping pages. And just when things are about to go how the reader thinks they will go, I blindside them with a twist.


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## Red Sonja (Dec 11, 2015)

Arrakis said:


> First off, I am not an easy reader to please--by any means. That said, however, unlike most readers, whom are rooted to a single genre, I'll read almost anything.
> 
> Personally, I tend to judge a book by its title. A book's title can say a lot about the author's imagination. That said, if the title is generic or doesn't catch mine eye, there's a good chance I'll ignore it. Also, the cover letter needs to be intriguing and mysterious.
> 
> Past that point, I can usually tell right away whether or not I'll like a book just by reading the first chapter. First impressions are vital, and readers are fickle--especially me. That said, in the beginning you HAVE to grip the reader like a hawk. Otherwise, the remaining pages may as well be blank. As I've said many times to mediocre novelists I've critiqued: you don't have to eat the whole fruit to know it's rotten--so keep it ripe.




This goes for me as well. I'll add that I read like I shop for clothing or shoes: I already know what I want, 99.9% of the time, before I start shopping. Also, my tastes are not that varied. I will read almost anything (even stuff most people would consider horribly, horribly dull, like "Galaxies of the Local Group" is one of the books in the bathroom) but whatever it is has to be established as authoritative in some way. I won't grab a book out and see if I like it because I can tell from looking at it that I probably won't especially if it's not what I was seeking in the first place. 

I fail most miserably as a slush reader. Most writing is so bad, I can't last past one page. I'm just really particular and my criticisms are too scathing for aspiring writers. Even writers that I like and read over and over again will annoy me with bad usage or things I consider vague, pointless, or wrong. 

So no, I'm never inclined to allow a book to seduce me based on its first chapter. Kinda like a bar: I will have a favorite bar to drink in, but if I'm cruising around I pick a bar that looks like my favorite bar. If I walk in the place and it's too different than what I like, I leave. (Well, unless the requirement for a drink is too pressing or it's the only bar in the area.) 

I guess I'm going off topic. Sorry!


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## Ariel (Dec 11, 2015)

I have read so much and so many different things that I'm fairly picky if I'm buying a book.  The cover has to attract my attention, the synopsis has to be interesting, I have to enjoy the opening, and I always read a few random pages to see how the writing is throughout.

I hate books that start off good but end up disappointing in the middle.


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## EmmaSohan (Dec 11, 2015)

I love this topic.

 I like to understand what I am reading, so I just drop a book that does the "tell you later" thing.

For a scene to be good, I almost always have to know the characters. So I see an exciting start as an attempt to grab me, not an attempt to write a good book. I'll put up with it, but I'm not happy.

I am not impressed by the single-short paragraph trick for an opening line.

Basically, I want an interesting character and good writing. Not something that grabs me, something that says this is going to be a good book.


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## Aquilo (Dec 12, 2015)

I'm a cover slave at heart when it comes to reading for pleasure.  Also the title can catch me, or the name of an author. When it comes to looking inside of an unknown author's work, it's usually the first page for me. Author style usually hits you in the face, how a sentence is worded, how clear the imagery /  character voice is etc. If I've got to the end of the first page and not even realized, then I know I'm hooked. If certain elements have pulled me away from being involved with the story, then it's a DNF for me.

I love it when you find the rare read that drags you along for the ride whether you want to or not.


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## David Gordon Burke (Dec 31, 2015)

I wish I had gotten onto this thread a lot earlier on.  I've voiced my opinion a few times on this topic but I'll just add that I must be the odd ball of the bunch.
If I pick up a book (not including a lot of Indie writers) I have made a contract with myself to read it.  It has to be BAD for me to give up on it.  I mean plot hole plodding lame narrative and stilted, unrealistic dialogue.  A catchy first line and special effect prose explosions aren't going to save it.  
And I'm not really too impressed by some fancy, overthought first line - most of that stuff comes off contrived to me.  
Pique my interest?  I would hope so but sometimes a story has to get its stride.  
A lot of the Inciting Incident on the first page stuff is just action with the hope of catching your interest with over the top explosions or brutal violence.

Look at something like Silence of the Lambs.  You have to go through Agent Starling running through the woods, a cadet comiing out to get her and send her to Crawfords office, a bit of background and then a bloody dull converstation about how he remembers her from a lecture, that she had sent him a letter stating that she wanted to work in the behavioral division after graduation blah, blah, blah.  Dull stuff really but you are getting into the more important stuff ... you are getting to care and learn about the characters.
How about the Count of Monte Cristo?  Damn, that first couple of chapters are dull.  
I could go on and on.  As some books do.  
It's either going to deliver or not.  A lot don't.
Giving up after the first 5 or 10 pages?  You could miss a lot.

David Gordon Burke


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## TBK (Dec 31, 2015)

I always judge a book by it's first few paragraphs. First impressions are everything.


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## patskywriter (Jan 1, 2016)

When I'm looking at books, there are some authors (like Georges Simenon) I like so much that the only thing I'm concerned with is whether I've read it before.


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## Patrick (Jan 2, 2016)

I can tell to what extent somebody has mastered their craft very quickly. There's the storytelling element and then there's the language. I persist with authors if they show talent in their prose or in the concept while lacking in the other area. If they are lacking in both, I know I am not going to get anything out of the book. The writing doesn't have to "hook me" from the beginning; it just has to be good.


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## lvcabbie (Jan 3, 2016)

First of all, to me books are stories and the storyteller has the responsibility of engaging me from the very beginning. Thus, the first few paragraphs are the most vital part of the story.

People lead busy lives and they don't have time to wade through boring stuff to reach something of interest. Like literary agents and editors, if it doesn't catch their attention right away, you've lost them.

Hook me or lose me. That's the way it is.


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## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord (Jan 4, 2016)

Here's what I think: the beginning of a book should hint at what is to come. People often say that an author should start with an exciting, action-filled event, but an author should not start with fast-paced action unless the rest of the book is going to have a lot of action. The first few pages should give an idea of what the rest of the book is going to be like, because people have different tastes. Everyone is "grabbed" by something different, and the beginning of a book should attempt to "grab" the people who are most likely going to enjoy it.


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## Patrick (Jan 4, 2016)

lvcabbie said:


> First of all, to me books are stories and the storyteller has the responsibility of engaging me from the very beginning. Thus, the first few paragraphs are the most vital part of the story.
> 
> People lead busy lives and they don't have time to wade through boring stuff to reach something of interest. Like literary agents and editors, if it doesn't catch their attention right away, you've lost them.
> 
> Hook me or lose me. That's the way it is.



This, for me, is lamentable. The serious novel is not treated with the respect any other serious work of art receives. It's a travesty that agents and editors have repeatedly told writers and readers that books have to be easy reading. I'd end up killing myself if I were to attempt such a novel. It's not that I don't want a reader to follow my prose; I want to write about the stuff that interests me, and much of that stuff just doesn't lend itself to the hooky, shallow writing of popular fiction.

I had to persevere with Joyce to begin with, and there were times when I hated him, but I'd have missed out on so much insight if I'd never returned to him. My goodness does he capture what it's like to be alive. When you read Joyce you feel a hand reaching out to you from across the ages and taking yours. It says that the things most secret to you and most individual were experienced by another human being. Only great literature really does that. There's no other art form (and I love many of them) that does it.

The trend for superficial, eye-catching writing has probably been around for a long time, but the proliferation of social media, which encourages echo chambers rather than serious discussion along with its bad generic advice from many published authors and their agents, has certainly marginalised the serious novel. The writer who loves the art and wants to raise the reader's consciousness of what it is to be human is consistently derided for being "pretentious" and "boring". I don't accept that people don't have time to read serious literature. It might take more sittings, but one can certainly make the time for it if they can make the time for the latest piece of crime fiction.


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## Radrook (Feb 28, 2016)

You can judge a book by the start if the author begins by committing a basic flaw in his introduction. I once began reading a novel in which the author introduced a bewildering host of characters with so many unearthly names and absolutely no character description to differentiate them that it totally overwhelmed my senses. My initial urge was to throw it in the trash bin. But since it was from a famous author I tried to blame myself and kept it to see if I could get past the first chapter. Despite my best efforts it only got worse. He began shifting from name to name as if each character were familiar to the reader. I finally did put it in the trash bin. So my first assessment had been valid.


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## escorial (Feb 28, 2016)

can't think of any book i've read were the beginning was good and the rest was not so good...for me if a book begins to frustrate me i know i will not reach the end.....i do try sometimes to look beyond the start and stick with it but it's often a forlorn experience....


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## Jack of all trades (Feb 28, 2016)

If I have enjoyed other books by the author I tend to just read the back blurb to decide if this particular story interests me. 

If I have never read anything by the author I still start with the back blurb. From there I open the book at random to somewhere in the first half of the book and read a couple paragraphs. If I get to the bottom of the page, I go with it. Otherwise I read the opening and decide after that.

I have enjoyed books with less than stellar openings. Sometimes an author isn't good at beginnings.


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## escorial (Feb 28, 2016)

i don't really get that..an author not so good at the start and builds as they go on...


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## Flint (Feb 28, 2016)

Good thread. 

While there have been instances where I haven't got into a book until later on, it tends to be the case that if I don't like a book in the first page or two I won't like it later on. I just don't have the time/energy these days to give a random book a chance, especially as there is a mountain of books I already want to read, so I'm normally pretty brutal/fickle when I read a book. I guess the exceptions, for fiction books with a start I didn't like, would be a favourite author or a classic book I wanted to study.


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## Jack of all trades (Feb 28, 2016)

escorial said:


> i don't really get that..an author not so good at the start and builds as they go on...



What's to get? Occasionally a book starts slow. That doesn't mean the entire book will be bad. Some books start great and fizzle out. And I'm not talking about self published books, either. Consistency is not always achieved.


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## escorial (Feb 28, 2016)

not for me dude..if i'm bored early on i leave it...guess you can like 3/4 of a book or half but that's just not for me...


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## voltigeur (Feb 28, 2016)

> not for me dude..if i'm bored early on i leave it...guess you can like 3/4 of a book or half but that's just not for me...



That is the rub. Fair or not, it is a reality especially with Agents and Publishers. 

It's nothing new I was told you have about 3 lines to hook a reader or they put it down. That was the 70's when people's attention span was much longer than it is now. 

I personally have tuned out in as little as 2 lines. (That writing was particularly bad with bad premise.)


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## Radrook (Feb 29, 2016)

Editors in charge of accepting what is submitted aren't too keen on overlooking initial mistakes and assume that the author will continue displaying his clumsiness for the remainder. So they try to conserve what little eyesight they still retain by tossing the manuscript in the rejection bin. At least that's what i once read that they do.


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## Jack of all trades (Feb 29, 2016)

I am talking about traditionally published books. So these have made it through the process.

What I am saying is that I am willing to give a book a chance if it has a slow start. I have enjoyed books where the beginning (a couple of pages) wasn't as good as the rest of the book.

I'm not sure where folks are getting 1/4 to 1/2 of the book being bad, or editors and publishers rejecting the manuscript.


Has anyone ever liked the opening and then gotten bored? I know I have.


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## Patrick (Feb 29, 2016)

Go into any bookstore and make a mental note of all the books you pass over after scanning the back cover and perusing the opening paragraphs. There will be far more books that don't give you an urge to read further than books that do (this is not actually an indicator of which book is better), and then consider the fact these are traditionally published books, having run the gauntlet from agent to editor. Your relatively unpolished, by comparison, manuscript will be passed over much more easily by an agent who has less time than you to consider the merits of manuscript/book. Don't take it personally, and don't take it as a measure of anything, because it truly isn't. For an older manuscript that was really just a progenitor text of the novel I am now writing, I received 7/8 rejections, 7/8 no-responses, and one request (by a top agent here in the UK) for the full manuscript after the agent was interested by the first 40-50 pages. I already knew the novel wasn't right, and I was working on solutions (which eventually turned into a bigger and much better novel), so by the time I received a rejection, which was full of kind praise for the quality of the writing, I was working again.

My advice is not to worry about hooking agents or readers, because for any single one you hook, there will be at least ten (and I am being incredibly generous to even the best-written manuscripts) who show no interest beyond the first paragraph/cover letter. What you should concentrate on is doing justice to your ideas and improving as a writer.


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## Patrick (Feb 29, 2016)

After coming in late, I caught the last twenty minutes of a documentary called "my failed novel", or something along those lines, on the arts channel tonight. It's a novel called Winkler by a journalist called Giles Coren. I thought it was admirable of him to share his weaknesses on television and acknowledge how bad his book was, even though it was published. Here is the novel: http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0224074997/

Reading the first couple of pages I pointed out what was wrong with it to my dad, and he told me the same criticisms had been made by authors and writing groups earlier in the section of the program I'd missed. Due to the confrontational narration and the plot synopsis on the opening pages, this is a great example of when it's OK to judge a book by its start. It reads like something a decent writer with no experience of how to handle a narrative would write. It also shows no imagination and the tone of voice is insecure. There is no place for justification in your prose. "Winkler is an Englishman - and his story begins with a cricket match, *whether you like it or not*." He then tells me that I likely don't know about the game when, in fact, this particular reader was a good opening batsman and wicket keeper when he was younger.

Learning not to be overly self-conscious as a writer is very important. Be faithful to your observations and write with the assumption that a number of other members of the human race will share some of your interests.


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## Radrook (Feb 29, 2016)

There is also a type of book that grabs you by the throat at the start until you almost have an epileptic fit from anticipation and then lulls you to sleep for the remainder. i know of a very famous author who used that technique in every chapter he wrote. Grabbed you by the throat with a scene that promised furious action and then had the protagonist or his nemesis conversing in an office, lab, a corridor, a cockpit, in a restroom or anywhere else for the boring remainder. After several snooze sessions, i began avoiding him like the Black Plague.


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## lvcabbie (Mar 4, 2016)

I'm curious. Would any want to read this beyond this first paragraph?

He was an old man who fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream and he had gone eighty-four 
days now without taking a fish. In the first forty days a boy had been with him. But after forty days 
without a fish the boy’s parents had told him that the old man was now definitely and finally salao, 
which is the worst form of unlucky, and the boy had gone at their orders in another boat which 
caught three good fish the first week. It made the boy sad to see the old man come in each day with 
his skiff empty and he always went down to help him carry either the coiled lines or the gaff and 
harpoon and the sail that was furled around the mast. The sail was patched with flour sacks and, 
furled, it looked like the flag of permanent defeat.


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## EmmaSohan (Mar 4, 2016)

lvcabbie said:


> I'm curious. Would any want to read this beyond this first paragraph?
> 
> He was an old man who fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream and he had gone eighty-four
> days now without taking a fish. In the first forty days a boy had been with him. But after forty days
> ...



It's an honest start. It has a nice feel. I actually got a third of the way through the book before I started skipping the boring parts and finally just jumped to the end.

Obviously, famous authors do not have the demands on them that other authors do. I mostly look at writing ability when judging a start. I am not sure how to rate this start -- it has too much about the boy given his importance in the story.


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## Patrick (Mar 5, 2016)

lvcabbie said:


> I'm curious. Would any want to read this beyond this first paragraph?
> 
> He was an old man who fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream and he had gone eighty-four
> days now without taking a fish. In the first forty days a boy had been with him. But after forty days
> ...



Ironically, there's a lethargy in the prose which is quite typical of Hemingway. The Hemingway "drone" is a result of the repetition of 'and'. 

The concept is good, but the aforementioned drone eventually becomes a clang when I read Hemingway. It isn't for me. I don't know why others like him so much, for I don't see any flair for language in Hemingway's oeuvre.


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## escorial (Mar 5, 2016)

hemingway drone.....man i get that


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## Patrick (Mar 5, 2016)

escorial said:


> hemingway drone.....man i get that



Shh, shh, they'll shoot me if too many back my insubordination.


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## EmmaSohan (Mar 5, 2016)

I think Hemingway's use of _and _creates a mood. I actually discuss it a bit in my book on punctuation and grammar. I like the mood, and I admire Hemingway for creating it.

I can also understand people not liking it. But you could say that about any style, especially one on the edge.

As for a book start, it's honest -- you get those _and_s from start to end.


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## Patrick (Mar 5, 2016)

EmmaSohan said:


> I think Hemingway's use of _and _creates a mood. I actually discuss it a bit in my book on punctuation and grammar. I like the mood, and I admire Hemingway for creating it.
> 
> I can also understand people not liking it. _But you could say that about any style, especially one on the edge_.
> 
> As for a book start, it's honest -- you get those _and_s from start to end.



I disagree. You don't have to enjoy a style to appreciate it. For instance, you can dislike, due to how antiquated the language is, Shakespeare, but if you don't appreciate his lyricism, word play, and the multifarious meaning in his metaphor, then you're ignorant. But, really, what is there to like about the repetition, apart from the confidence to actually do it, of a basic conjunction like "and"? That does not qualify as literary experimentation, in my opinion. That is not on the edge of anything other than my nerves.

Feel free to disagree. I am just speaking candidly.


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## EmmaSohan (Mar 5, 2016)

Patrick said:


> I disagree. You don't have to enjoy a style to appreciate it. For instance, you can dislike, due to how antiquated the language is, Shakespeare, but if you don't appreciate his lyricism, word play, and the multifarious meaning in his metaphor, then you're ignorant. But, really, what is there to like about the repetition, apart from the confidence to actually do it, of a basic conjunction like "and"? That does not qualify as literary experimentation, in my opinion. That is not on the edge of anything other than my nerves.
> 
> Feel free to disagree. I am just speaking candidly.



Hemingway uses _and _to join two independent clauses, which by typical rules is grammatically incorrect. And he does this _incessantly _-- I don't know of any other book coming remotely as close to being dominated by a single grammatical construction.

And it does have an effect, and the effect to me is as if everything has already happened and we are now just observing it. And I suspect it's hypnotic and so I can see why someone would think it was droning. If you like clever word play, fine, but wouldn't that be exactly the wrong choice for Hemingway's book? I think an essential element of Santiago is his simplicity.

Laughing, you are right, it's odd to use that choice for a whole book. But it's a good tool to have in your tool box, right? I think this is John Green using that style within a paragraph (after the dash)



> ....and[we] listened to Patrick recount for the thousandth time his depressingly miserable life story -- how he had cancer in his balls and they thought he was going to die but he didn't die and now here he is, a full-grown adult .... (The Fault in Our Stars, page 4)


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## voltigeur (Mar 5, 2016)

> Hemingway uses _and _to join two independent clauses, which by typical rules is grammatically incorrect.



Grammatical rules change slowly but they do change over time. Style changes constantly. Literary whims change with the wind. Since Hemmingway published from 1926 to 1964 the writing style then was very different from what is expected today.

That being said you have to know your core audience and your extended audience. If you try to write to everyone you will end up writing to no one. 

Depending on mood I like to slow down with a more classic (remember I'm an old fart.) style. If I'm short of time I like the more "get tot he point" style used today. When I write I really like something in between for my voice.


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## W.Goepner (Mar 6, 2016)

This is what I am working for my back page. Any pointers.

James is a family man, a psychiatrist, and a native American. Needing to clear his mind he decides to go to a holy spot and access his own culture. Once there he finds a doorway to another world and, going through the doorway, discovers he has the ability to transform between dog and man.

Trying to retrieve his Backpack he finds the way blocked and goes in search of help, hoping to return home. He finds himself in a long cavern whose walls are lined with life-size paintings. Attempting to get a closer look at one he falls through into another world and finds it impossible to return.

Survival necessity compels him to assume dog form and, trapped in this world, he finds help from a female dog, an outcast from her pack.

The pack’s discovery that James is a changeling sets in motion a chain of events, that draws James and his companion back into the pack, and reveals to the pack half forgotten truths about themselves.

James’ desire to return home lessens as time goes by, and he finds himself attracted to Ahkeer, the female that first befriended him. Becoming mates they then discover a clue which leads to them opening the doorway. Now James is faced with the dilemma of reconciling different worlds.


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## Flint (Mar 6, 2016)

lvcabbie said:


> I'm curious. Would any want to read this beyond this first paragraph?
> 
> He was an old man who fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream and he had gone eighty-four
> days now without taking a fish. In the first forty days a boy had been with him. But after forty days
> ...



Definitely not my thing. The only reason I would keep reading is if I wanted to examine Hemingway's writing for some reason.




W.Goepner said:


> This is what I am working for my back page. Any pointers.
> 
> James is a family man, a psychiatrist, and a native American. Needing to clear his mind he decides to go to a holy spot and access his own culture. Once there he finds a doorway to another world and, going through the doorway, discovers he has the ability to transform between dog and man.
> 
> ...



This, on the other hand, is right up my street. 

I'm not quite sure what a 'back page' is? I'm guessing it's what's written on the outside cover and back of a book to entice the reader?

Personally, I like it but I feel you're giving away too much information about what happens in the book – unless what you've described all happens in the first chapter or so.


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## Patrick (Mar 6, 2016)

EmmaSohan said:


> Hemingway uses _and _to join two independent clauses, which by typical rules is grammatically incorrect. And he does this _incessantly _-- I don't know of any other book coming remotely as close to being dominated by a single grammatical construction.
> 
> And it does have an effect, and the effect to me is as if everything has already happened and we are now just observing it. And I suspect it's hypnotic and so I can see why someone would think it was droning. If you like clever word play, fine, but wouldn't that be exactly the wrong choice for Hemingway's book? I think an essential element of Santiago is his simplicity.
> 
> Laughing, you are right, it's odd to use that choice for a whole book. But it's a good tool to have in your tool box, right? I think this is John Green using that style within a paragraph (after the dash)



Two independent clauses can be joined by a conjunction, but a comma should precede the conjunction, such as in this sentence. Two independent clauses should not, in my opinion, be joined by one without the other; if a comma is used without the conjunction then it is a run-on sentence/comma splice, and if the conjunction is used without the comma, the clauses become indistinct. That was Hemingway's ambition, however, in order to facilitate smooth reading.

The narrative isn't particularly osmotic; the narrator is distinct from the boy and the old man. The passage is not an example of free indirect discourse, so there's no reason for the author to limit himself to the sentence structure and language of the protagonist.


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## Flint (Mar 6, 2016)

Patrick said:


> Two independent clauses can be joined by a conjunction, but a comma should precede the conjunction, such as in this sentence. Two independent clauses should not, in my opinion, be joined by one without the other; if a comma is used without the conjunction then it is a run-on sentence/comma splice, and if the conjunction is used without the comma, the clauses become indistinct.



Yeah, compound sentences using coordinating conjunctions (and comma splice avoidance) seem to be pretty standard features of modern grammar/punctuation over here. Maybe they do things differently in other places?


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## W.Goepner (Mar 6, 2016)

Flint said:


> W.Goepner said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes Back page, back cover, etc. So you believe it is too much of an information dump. Can I interest you in a beta read for me?

The whole piece which is described above is over 200,000 words. The first twelve chapters tell of his 18 month journey, the next nine chapters tell of how the changing abilities came to be for him and the others like him, and some adjustment period for others whom did not know the change.


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## Flint (Mar 6, 2016)

W.Goepner said:


> Yes Back page, back cover, etc. So you believe it is too much of an information dump.



Well, I guess I felt you were giving away too much of the plot in the later paragraphs: the two of them get together; they find a way to open the doorway.

I don't know. Just my opinion. 

It was interesting looking at this. This was one of my favourite books/series. Farmer does give away a bit of the plot/structure of the universe, so I'm not sure. 



> When Robert Wolff found a strange horn in an empty house he held the key to a different universe. To blow that horn would open up a door through space-time and permit entry to a cosmos whose dimensions and laws were not those known by our starry galaxy.
> 
> For that other universe was a place of tiers, world upon world piled upon each other like the landings of a sky-piercing mountain. The one to blow that horn would ascend those steps, from creation to creation, until he would come face to face with the being whose brain-child it was. But what if that maker of universes was a madman? Or an imposter? Or a super-criminal hiding from the wrath of his own superiors...


http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B007FXID1I/ 



W.Goepner said:


> Can I interest you in a beta read for me?
> 
> The whole piece which is described above is over 200,000 words.



I'm flattered you asked, but I just don't have the time/energy to commit at the moment. I did Lee's book a little while back, and, while I enjoyed it, it was stretching me quite thin to do it.


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## lvcabbie (Mar 6, 2016)

One of the greatest tips I ever read about book blurbs is this - Pare your story down to 25 words!

The absolutely most agonizing and frustrating exercises in writing.  =;


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## Flint (Mar 10, 2016)

I don't know how generalisable/reliable the results are, but this may be of interest:



> If an author wants to hold on to a male reader, they have “only 20 to 50 pages to capture their attention”, according to the research. “No room for rambling introductions,” Rhomberg told the Guardian. “The author needs to get to the point quickly, build suspense or otherwise capture the male reader, or he is gone, gone, gone.”
> 
> Age was a bigger factor in completion rates than gender, found Jellybooks, with readers under 35, and over 45, more likely to finish a book than those between the two ages, for the majority of books. Rhomberg speculates on Digital Book World that readers between the ages of 35 and 45 may be the “most time-pressed demographic”, with “little time for reading”.



http://linkis.com/www.theguardian.com/5Qn3S


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## Kyle R (Mar 10, 2016)

> If an author wants to hold on to a male reader, they have “only 20 to 50 pages to capture their attention” . . .



Twenty to fifty pages? For me, you have one to five pages, tops—five being on the generous end.

With fiction, you've got to grab me from the get-go, otherwise my attention span . . . oh, look! Shiny! :distracted:


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## Patrick (Mar 10, 2016)

If either the concept or the writing is good, I will persevere with the book even when it's not really holding my attention. I have to make an effort to read anything. There isn't a book out there that absolutely grips me; when I was younger I could read for pure pleasure, but the standard novel bores me now with very few exceptions.


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## W.Goepner (Mar 10, 2016)

Patrick said:


> If either the concept or the writing is good, I will persevere with the book even when it's not really holding my attention. I have to make an effort to read anything. There isn't a book out there that absolutely grips me; when I was younger I could read for pure pleasure, but the standard novel bores me now with very few exceptions.



Hey Patrick, I know not how you feel but I believe I understand it. Have you tried any of Brian Jacques books. He has written the Redwall series. It is thought they are for the younger reader, I find them stimulating and easy reading. He also wrote two outside of the Redwall series, that I know of. The first being "Castaways of the Flying Dutchman" the other "Angel's Command w/o the" You might try one and see if it gives you a lift. 

I once read a 100,000 page story "The stone and the Flute" sort of a German folklore. Now that one, was drudgery for me.


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## Patrick (Mar 10, 2016)

W.Goepner said:


> Hey Patrick, I know not how you feel but I believe I understand it. Have you tried any of Brian Jacques books. He has written the Redwall series. It is thought they are for the younger reader, I find them stimulating and easy reading. He also wrote two outside of the Redwall series, that I know of. The first being "Castaways of the Flying Dutchman" the other "Angel's Command w/o the" You might try one and see if it gives you a lift.
> 
> I once read a 100,000 page story "The stone and the Flute" sort of a German folklore. Now that one, was drudgery for me.



I read some of the Redwall books when I was a child. I should look around for some good children's books, because I actually like reading them. My typical reading is more Joyce and Shakespeare, and the light reading I've picked up recently just hasn't been doing its job.


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