# Seeking Advice regarding neogiations for an AudioBook that went wrong



## Galen (Oct 19, 2019)

Hello:

I wondered if I could get an opinion from others regarding a situation that has occurred while negotiating for services for an audio book.


Here is how it went:

Prior to seeking services to produce an audiobook for my book which is about 100pgs published, I  feel I had done all I could to understand the audiobook process and price range. But, I had no idea of the costs for my book.

I found a narrator by chance. I knew a bit about his work, so I felt comfortable. I  thought I had supplied all the necessary information including a link  to the book.



I was given a price, a timeframe and the format of the deliverable.

I was not asked for the book in any particular format, so I assumed the link and the mobi file were sufficient., 



Then,  I get an email where the service provider told me he miscalculated the  price. Now, the price was double the original because he did not realize the size of the book. While the cost was  affordable and reasonable, it was an amount I could not pay at one time.



What hurt was I felt he implied I was trying to cheat him.



Given  that we had not started the project, if I choose to go forward, I would  still need to work with him and I feel the final product would be flawed.

If I do not go forward, I  will probably end up paying more for an audiobook but what I seek is a  professional relationship where the price, timeframe, process, and  deliverables are made clear. And, the process for QA is made clear as well including any additional costs. If a service provider has my eBook, I do not understand why there should be any surprises.

I really wanted to work with this particular narrator. It pains me to have to terminate the project but I do not know how to deal with this. Negotiating using email has its flaws. I feel that if we had been talking face to face, much of this could be resolved. Now, I am not sure, what to do. I want to terminate the project so I can avoid all the negative feelings I have.

After writing this post, I could use a video call but I still don't know how to deal with someone who thinks I am trying to cheat them.

I would be grateful for any ideas.


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## Cephus (Oct 19, 2019)

He gave you a price. If he wants to back out, you should allow it, but that's really his problem, not yours. It is highly unprofessional to try to get more money after you've already agreed to do it for a set price. You didn't mislead him, he screwed up. Even if you like this narrator, it sounds like they have some problems.


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## Ma'am (Oct 19, 2019)

Doubling the price he quoted you and having the nerve to play the victim while he does it?

That sounds like too much BS when you haven't even gotten started yet.

I think I'd start over with someone else. If you go on Audible (connected to Amazon) they have a list of narrators, along with their experience and their fees. Good luck.


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## luckyscars (Oct 19, 2019)

Galen said:


> Then,  I get an email where the service provider told me he miscalculated the  price. Now, the price was double the original because he did not realize the size of the book. While the cost was  affordable and reasonable, it was an amount I could not pay at one time.



What happened is he read somewhere about the price he _should _be charging and that made him want to retrospectively requote you. He was probably pricing himself a little on the cheap side in the first place. Which, I assume, is one of the reasons why you picked him...

...but that's his problem. The fact he doesn't want to work for you at your price, however, is your problem. 

I'm not sure there's even a question here, is there? You can't force him to agree to the project, he can't force you to agree to his price. It sounds like no money has been exchanged yet, so nobody is on the hook for anything. If you had paid him a sum up front I would understand, but you haven't?

So you really want to work with him? Okay, maybe give him one last chance. Offer him what you think is reasonable, what you can afford and what you think he is worth, and tell him it's that or nothing. If the answer is not 'yes', that's it. Don't negotiate further, don't beg, don't get angry. 

I will say the use of terms like 'hurt', 'pained', 'negative feelings' and the 'if he could only see my face on a video call' thing...concerns me a little. It _sounds_ like you're taking it all a little personally. It sounds like you have some kind of emotional response. If so then no offence - that's silly. This isn't a friendship (hopefully), it's a business arrangement. He might have a really lovely voice, but I'm sure there are other good narrators out there. This is not personal, or it shouldn't be.


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## Aquilo (Oct 20, 2019)

Did you give him a final word count or a final page count? Most will work with a final word count, that way there's no leeway for mistakes on page counts when in different formats etc. There can be potential discrepancies with page counts, so it's why most go by word count. 

Did you sign any contract? If there's no contract, just say 'sorry for the misunderstanding, but there has been a misunderstanding, so no thank you.' 

I'd recommend ACX (a part of Amazon who distributes through Audible, iTunes etc): they go by word count and you calculate exactly how many hours it will take to produce before you approach a narrator. You can pay upfront, do half royalty, half upfront, or you can 100% royalty share. And they have a host of narrators to choose from and a contract, with ACX there to help mediate if things go wrong.

I've done three audios through ACX now, and I couldn't be happier with my narrator Dan Calley.


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## Galen (Oct 20, 2019)

Hello Cephus:

Thank you for such a succinct and appropriate answer. I figured as much.

I have worked with publishers, editors, book cover artists, and others and no one ever implied I tried to cheat them. Plus, I pay what vendors tell me their services cost. I guess somehow, i hoped I could salvage this situation. Don't why I can't find the words or approach that could change this.


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## Galen (Oct 20, 2019)

Hola Ma'am:

Thanks for your perspective. I do not know why I struggle to convert a negative situation into a positive one but I keep trying because this didn't have to be the outcome. Somewhere, somehow, I need to figure out what flags would alerted me sooner to a possible negative outcome. I always blame the email environment for bad outcomes.

Or maybe, I am a sucker for poor communicators


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## Galen (Oct 20, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> What happened is he read somewhere about the price he _should _be charging and that made him want to retrospectively requote you. He was probably pricing himself a little on the cheap side in the first place. Which, I assume, is one of the reasons why you picked him...
> 
> Hi Lucky:
> 
> ...



I can see your point regarding "feelings" but when someone implies you are cheating them, I feel that is a negative remark and does not create a good working environment.

ohhhhhh, I just hate coming to this conclusion.  I have seen misunderstandings get worked out. I just wanted work this one out.


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## Galen (Oct 20, 2019)

Aquilo said:


> Did you give him a final word count or a final page count? Most will work with a final word count, that way there's no leeway for mistakes on page counts when in different formats etc. There can be potential discrepancies with page counts, so it's why most go by word count.
> 
> Did you sign any contract? If there's no contract, just say 'sorry for the misunderstanding, but there has been a misunderstanding, so no thank you.'
> 
> ...



I would have to go back and look at our emails. What I did give him was a link to my eBook which I thought would provide him with that kind of information. He could have asked for the word count but he didn't. I guess I just feel that the email environment does not lend it self to constructive conversations when dealing in details.

I think you bring up a point I need to address. I need to make a list of the characteristics of my book. I do have a list somewhere I used for another purpose. I think I will need the list in future negotiations. Thanks.


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## Galen (Oct 20, 2019)

Thank you everyone for all your comments, suggestions and observations. I am so glad I asked members of the Writing Forums for advice. It has all been quite helpful. Thanks.


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## Galen (Oct 22, 2019)

UPDATE:

Thanks everyone for your input. Your comments, suggestions and observations were very helpful.

I think my delay in responding to the narrator's email made him take a look at what he had said. He sent another email apologizing for his mistake. We are now on good footing.

But, the situation made me reexamine the notes and research I had done awhile back on the audiobook process, the terms, the pricing and more.

I know that from what I had remembered, I could not figure out how to translate "finished hour" into any kind of formula in order estimate what the cost might be to produce an audio book of my novelette.

So, I had decided to let the narrator or audio production company tell me what the price was.

I will admit I was surprised by the original estimate. My book is around 20,000 words.

But, from my perspective, even after the audio part is done. I will have more work to do and I am butting heads with the new technology concepts and apps regarding the creation and distribution of an audio book.

As a self-published author, self-publishing a book was hard enough. What do you call the brain stew when your brain can not grasp new concepts? It's like trying to learn a foreign language.

I am still stuck on "finished hour", what the heck is that?


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## Ma'am (Oct 22, 2019)

This isn't really what you were asking about but just a thought, you may want to just drop the whole thing unless you're just doing it for kicks. Self-published work doesn't usually bring in much money so if you're not careful, what profits there are (and then some) can easily end up all going to the peripheral helpers rather than to you, the author. 

I did the audiobook thing on one of my books and now several years later, I doubt I've gotten the money back on audiobook sales that I paid to the voice actor. In any case, good luck if you do it and let us know how it goes.


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## Ma'am (Oct 22, 2019)

Double post.


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## Aquilo (Oct 22, 2019)

Galen said:


> I am still stuck on "finished hour", what the heck is that?






> The term “per finished hour” refers to the number of actual edited and mastered hours the project clocks in on its finished presentation. So, if an audiobook of 85,000 + words is six hours and 30 minutes long then the voice talent is paid for six hours and 30 minutes only. The other fees mentioned above as well as a fee for the voice talent altering his/her natural voice to account for different characters can also be added. Therefore, the cost per finished hour on the six hour and 30 minute audiobook I mentioned can range from $250 – $450 per finished hour.



Taken from here.

ACX does this or you. You type in your word count: 20,000, then they do the calculation. E.g., mine at 144,059 words = 15.4 hours. My narrator then has a per finished hour rate, e.g., £200.00. You then times the pfh by 15.5 etc to get an overall cost. Unless you do either a royalty share plus with ACX where you pay half, then split the royalties that come in, or do pure royalty share, which is splitting the cost once the sales come in. But those options are only available through ACX. If you're going private, then you'll more than likely pay upfront, which some authors do. 

Good luck, and let us know how you get on!!


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## Ma'am (Oct 22, 2019)

Also, just my opinion, but I wouldn't want to be involved in a shared royalty deal with someone forever when I was self-publishing, so I paid the full fee.


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## Aquilo (Oct 22, 2019)

Ma'am said:


> Also, just my opinion, but I wouldn't want to be involved in a shared royalty deal with someone forever when I was self-publishing, so I paid the full fee.



It's not forever.  You sign a contract for seven years, which is long enough to earn the money both ways. Can be, but no guarantee!

How did sales on yours go, Ma'am? Did you earn the money back you put into production?


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## Galen (Oct 22, 2019)

Ma'am said:


> This isn't really what you were asking about but just a thought, you may want to just drop the whole thing unless you're just doing it for kicks. Self-published work doesn't usually bring in much money so if you're not careful, what profits there are (and then some) can easily end up all going to the peripheral helpers rather than to you, the author.
> 
> I did the audiobook thing on one of my books and now several years later, I doubt I've gotten the money back on audiobook sales that I paid to the voice actor. In any case, good luck if you do it and let us know how it goes.



Hola Ma'am:

I agree. But, after publishing my first and only novel, I knew from day 1, I wasn't going to recoup any monetary outlays. But, I found it such a great learning experience that I am fine with that. I had so many wonderful experiences meeting new people, participating in a variety of events and activities. I had to learn lots of new software, new processes and so much more, that alone was worth the time and money I spent.

I feel the same way about the audiobook. In my ignorance, I had, at one time, thought I could do the audio book myself but that would have required an investment into software, hardware and apps, I did not want to make. It was such an undertaking, I almost gave up. So, this venture is just a part of my learning experience. I have more ideas for other formats for my novel. But, they entail costs, too. I have no plans to pursue those formats at this time. But, I hope, in the future, that for some of those formats, I can do some of the work myself, again for the experience. But, all the ideas require a lot of time and a lot of learning new skills etc. I have weigh what projects I spend my time on.

I appreciate your observations.


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## Ma'am (Oct 22, 2019)

@Aquilo- Thanks for that. I didn't realize the royalty-sharing was for seven years only. I am not sure if I recouped my voice actor expense on audio sales or not but if so, it's close.

@Galen- I know what you mean. I make a small income from my writing but really just do it for the fun of it.


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## Galen (Oct 22, 2019)

Aquilo said:


> Taken from here.
> 
> ACX does this or you. You type in your word count: 20,000, then they do the calculation. E.g., mine at 144,059 words = 15.4 hours. My narrator then has a per finished hour rate, e.g., £200.00. You then times the pfh by 15.5 etc to get an overall cost. Unless you do either a royalty share plus with ACX where you pay half, then split the royalties that come in, or do pure royalty share, which is splitting the cost once the sales come in. But those options are only available through ACX. If you're going private, then you'll more than likely pay upfront, which some authors do.
> 
> Good luck, and let us know how you get on!!



Hola Aquillo:

Thank you for the specifics. I am going to come back and print out this thread.

Some things are not clear, how does ACX determine that x number of words will take x number of hours to record?


Formula is $hourly rate x FHR ( number of hours it takes to read x number of words) = Cost for audiobook


And this cost includes deliverables like audio files?


I guess I got the impression in my research that there was dual process to make an audio book. One was to record it. The other was to "merge and edit" the audio files into an audiobook format. So, I thought there were two FHRs.


So, is there an established FHR for x number words, in general? A Rule of thumb or something? I had seen estimates but they seemed to vary greatly and that is where I got lost.


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## Aquilo (Oct 23, 2019)

Galen said:


> Some things are not clear, how does ACX determine that x number of words will take x number of hours to record?
> 
> 
> Formula is $hourly rate x FHR ( number of hours it takes to read x number of words) = Cost for audiobook
> ...



This is from ACX



> On average, most performers narrate about 9,300 words per hour. Divide the total number of words in your book by 9,300 to find out approximately how long your finished Audiobook will be. When you create a Title Profile on ACX, the length is automatically calculated for you, based on the word count you provide.



Some narrators may differ. though. You can use this to ask your narrator, though: how many word per hour he works with. Ideally he should be providing you with this information upfront so you're able to work it out.


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## Aquilo (Oct 23, 2019)

Ma'am said:


> I am not sure if I recouped my voice actor expense on audio sales or not but if so, it's close.



Is it on Audible and do you have a link? I have a credit I haven't used this month. Oh, did you get any free codes with yours at all? I'm just curious if you get the same as me when it comes to sending out reviews.


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## Aquilo (Oct 23, 2019)

Galen said:


> I guess I got the impression in my research that there was dual process to make an audio book. One was to record it. The other was to "merge and edit" the audio files into an audiobook format. So, I thought there were two FHRs.



Sorry, I missed this bit. It's said each 1 finished hour of production takes 6.2 hours to complete. However, with ACX:



> Audiobook Producers are paid based on the length of the completed audiobook times the agreed upon rate. A Producer will receive payment at the end of the upload process based on the final run time of the audiobook. When the project is complete, the system will automatically multiply the final run time of the audio times the agreed upon rate in the contract, to let the Rights Holder know how much they will need to pay the producer.
> 
> 
> Paying per finished hour encourages a Producer to prepare well and work efficiently, since they will get paid the same amount regardless of how long it takes to complete the job.



From here

But that purely is through ACX. I'm not sure what your narrator will do.


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## Galen (Oct 23, 2019)

Aquilo said:


> Sorry, I missed this bit. It's said each 1 finished hour of production takes 6.2 hours to complete. However, with ACX:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Aquillo:

Thanks for the info. It still makes my head spin but the new information is helpful.


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## Moose.H (Nov 7, 2019)

There is a failure of the meeting of minds. If he was experienced he would have framed his requirements better.  If he's getting miffed and the project is compromised move on to another who will give it his all.


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## Ralph Rotten (Nov 7, 2019)

Galen said:


> Hello:
> 
> I wondered if I could get an opinion from others regarding a situation that has occurred while negotiating for services for an audio book.
> 
> ...




 It says right on that link you provided that the book is 226 pages long!


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