# What do you think of Fan Fiction?



## JC.Axe

I've noticed in recent years a rise in the number of people writing Fan Fiction in the amateur writing community. I've never really cared much for fan fiction, partly because I don't watch much TV and rarely watch films. 


I'd always thought that the very concept of writing fanfiction was a bit uninspired and cheesy. Often writers steal ideas from other works of literature or film, but fanfiction which is categorically _not_ based on anything the reader has experienced or dreamed up.


That being said, it cannot be denied that some authors have had great success writing fanfiction. Some have even developed fanfiction to the point that the story has taken on a life of it's own, and warped into an independent story entirely (the most obvious example being Fifty shades of grey). 


Some might argue that in the same way that Shakespeare and many other prestigious authors based many of their most famous works on older stories, myths and legends, fan fiction could be considered similar.


I recall hearing about Joss Whedon producing an episode of "Buffy the vampire slayer", based on some of the fanfiction he'd seen (in which a fan writes himself into the story as an omnipotent heroic character) an example of somebody copying a copy of their own work.


I suppose for some aspiring writers, fan fiction is their first step into writing, and may provide them with a comfortable treading ground in which to begin writing. On the other hand, I struggle to believe that paying direct tribute to another writer's work by mimicking it (usually poorly), is not so much flattery, but lazy plagiarism by fantasists.


Although that being said, if fans of a TV show want to write fiction for other fans to enjoy, then why criticise? They aren't hurting anybody, and if it amuses the writer and the fans, then great! Maybe the readers will be so inspired that a new genre of fanfiction will develop called 'FanFanFiction'.


What are your thoughts? Is fanfiction lacklustre and stale? Or does it have a rightful place as legitimate creativity? 


JC Axe


----------



## Bishop

Fan fiction is fan fiction. I dislike people who attempt to use it as a stepping stone to "original" works, a-la 50 Shades of Useless, but writers who genuinely enjoy writing fan fiction and acknowledge it as so have no problem in my book. My only irk are the ones who change the names and call it something new.


----------



## Deleted member 56686

Yeah I was going to say. Fifty shades of grey is not a popular topic here. Never read it, don't want to


----------



## TKent

I read it. Silly story, but Christian Grey, the character was pretty darned hot. If nothing else, that book made me go out and seek well written erotica LOL  



> Yeah I was going to say. Fifty shades of grey is not a popular topic here. Never read it, don't want to


----------



## Bishop

TKent said:


> I read it.



As did I, but I'm sure for different reasons.


----------



## PiP

TKent said:


> I read it. Silly story, but Christian Grey, the character was pretty darned hot. If nothing else, that book made me go out and seek well written erotica LOL



I'm glad you said that and not me! It was the way his pants hung on his hips...
:rofl:


I read it more out of curiosity than anything else. I now use it as a benchmark for crap writing.


----------



## Bishop

PiP said:


> I'm glad you said that and not me! It was the way his pants hung on his hips...



...In _that _way.



PiP said:


> I read it more out of curiosity than anything else. I now use it as a benchmark for crap writing.



Same. Also, I never understood how anyone could really believe that an American college senior had NEVER used a computer. That's less possible than the sun being made out of nacho cheese.


----------



## TKent

I guess my only comment here, is that 50 shades was was fan fic for twilight yet it had NOTHING to do with twilight except that both of the heroines are clumsy and both of the heros are tall, dark and handsome, so in my mind it was an original work (as original as any work since almost everything has been done in some way before), but they say she self-promoted it on a fan fic site. I have no idea about that and maybe she crossed a line. 

In my opinion, the whole 50 shades being 'useless' makes no sense. MILLIONS of people had a use for it (even if it was just Mommy porn).  To me it is sort of like painters: a house painter, may not be able to produce art like Rembrandt, and yet a lot of people need a house painter. So if top notch literary fiction author is Rembrandt and E.L. James is the house painter, who am "I" to judge. I know I get my house painted but I also spent a full hour n front of a Rembrandt at the Louvre. They are two completely different needs that are being met. 



> Fan fiction is fan fiction. I dislike people who attempt to use it as a stepping stone to "original" works, a-la 50 Shades of Useless, but writers who genuinely enjoy writing fan fiction and acknowledge it as so have no problem in my book. My only irk are the ones who change the names and call it something new.



JC Axe, I'm an admitted fangirl when I really love something. I can really appreciate fan fic that manages to make me 'feel' as good as the original. So for me, I've got no complaints for fan fic.  And although some fan fic is truly very similar to the original and doesn't seek to be original, some is very original that just uses a character 'type' (or types) to create an entirely different story. I think they both have their place. 

At least that's what I think 

- - - Updated - - -

And to add to that, almost EVERYTHING I do is influenced by something I have either really liked or didn't like in my past.  I could almost say I have no original thoughts whatsoever. Every character, every story idea has been influenced by something I read, saw, someone I know, etc.

- - - Updated - - -

Uh, yeah, that's what I use it for too... 



> I now use it as a benchmark for crap writing.


----------



## Firemajic

Bishop said:


> As did I, but I'm sure for different reasons.



:coffeescreen:....


----------



## Bishop

TKent said:


> I guess my only comment here, is that 50 shades was was fan fic for twilight yet it had NOTHING to do with twilight except that both of the heroines are clumsy and both of the heros are tall, dark and handsome, so in my mind it was an original work (as original as any work since almost everything has been done in some way before), but they say she self-promoted it on a fan fic site. I have no idea about that and maybe she crossed a line.
> 
> In my opinion, the whole 50 shades being 'useless' makes no sense. MILLIONS of people had a use for it (even if it was just Mommy porn).  To me it is sort of like painters: a house painter, may not be able to produce art like Rembrandt, and yet a lot of people need a house painter. So if top notch literary fiction author is Rembrandt and E.L. James is the house painter, who am "I" to judge. I know I get my house painted but I also spent a full hour n front of a Rembrandt at the Louvre. They are two completely different needs that are being met.



I'll be the first to admit: I'm a biased jerk about a lot of things, and I can be overly harsh. I try to tone it down for the WF, but much of what I say is hyperbole. In reality, 50 Shades has helped me to become a much better writer, partly because I do look at it as an example of what not to do. Despite its popularity, there's a lot that needs to be fixed, but mostly it taught me a few flaws of my own work when I saw them in that piece and grimaced. Then looked at my own and said... "Uh oh..."


----------



## Mistique

TKent said:


> In my opinion, the whole 50 shades being 'useless' makes no sense. MILLIONS of people had a use for it (even if it was just Mommy porn).  To me it is sort of like painters: a house painter, may not be able to produce art like Rembrandt, and yet a lot of people need a house painter. So if top notch literary fiction author is Rembrandt and E.L. James is the house painter, who am "I" to judge. I know I get my house painted but I also spent a full hour n front of a Rembrandt at the Louvre. They are two completely different needs that are being met.



I agree completely.

I read 50 shades and I liked it quite a bit. I would also have to admit that I can't stand it for more than one chapter at a time, but if I read it slow like that I like reading it. It was a thing between me and my two friends. We had this really great weekend and I gave the both of them that book. Now its kinda a private joke between us, so when I visited them a week ago one of hem gave me part two. So pretty soon I will start reading part two, slowly.


----------



## EmmaSohan

I have a friend who reads a lot of it. It seems like there is good literature in there, it's an interesting idea, it's a niche, and it's competitive. J.K Rowlings created the best characters and tends IMO to have weak plot, so she is a natural for fanfic. The fanfic for Scarlett Letter was weak. It's exciting to see where it goes.


----------



## Jeko

I have the following concerns with the _use _of fanfiction by the writers and readers of it:

-It can undermine the role of the author, in that writers/readers of fan-fiction don't have to care about the dramatic choice you make at the end of your work because they can (and do) just rewrite it the way they'd prefer it to be. Why should the author care if the readership doesn't?
-It can distort the author's attempts at creating particular impressions of characters, as anyone who has read enough fan-fiction regarding one character will likely have those alternatives in their mind as they watch the real thing. J K Rowling has encountered such issues herself.
-It cannot properly prepare a writer for actual storytelling, as they are only working with the surface-level shadows of their reception of the author's work and yet may see this as the full extent of the craft (I've known a lot of writers who do).
-Similarly, the writers of fan-fiction often claim an author's work as groundwork for their own, when they are only working with a fraction of what the author had at their disposal. And yet, many readers of popular works will find longer lasting entertainment in fan-fiction than the actual work itself. It creates a celebration of satisfactory mediocrity, perhaps weakening the sphere of teenage literature overall (as that's where most of it is centred).
-Reading fan-fiction, from what I've seen, develops a preference for looking outside a text when one would be better off looking inwards.
-A good proportion, perhaps the majority, of fan-fiction is centred around self or group indulgence through the creation of perversions of the story and characters. In short, it can be considered a form of rebellious literary vandalism.

On the other hand, fan-fiction that goes into a work in order to understand it more is something I'd encourage. I recently finished an anime series called 'Clannad' that ended with a bonus episode that did, in some ways, exactly what fan-fiction does; it created an alternative where two characters got together when they wouldn't have before. The purpose of the episode, however, was to show what would have happened had one character (the one the MC gets together with) didn't exist. It ends up being a beautiful, bitter-sweet insight into the importance of that missing character, while also developing the narrative by presenting new angles and potentialities for two integral characters. It also avoids indulgence and instead favours a powerful leaning towards the 'death' of a character in the non-mortal sense.

I'd like to see fan-fiction writers use their medium for something more useful. Alas, most of them are not doing it for the story, but for themselves.


----------



## Folcro

It was fanfiction that got me into writing (Final Fantasy VIII). Been a while, but I wouldn't trade those years for anything. 

It was a good start, finding something I was interested enough in to manipulate the story to my own design. It gave me power.

Could never go back now. Too obsessed with the fantasy that is "originality."


----------



## Jeko

> J.K Rowlings created the best characters and tends IMO to have weak plot, so she is a natural for fanfic.



This is what often leads to the 'I can do better than [insert author here]' ideology among learning writers, when they obviously can't.


----------



## TKent

I guess it depends on intent. I actually don't have a lot of experience except for the many fanfic writers on Wattpad. Many of them are head over heels in love with the original, whether it be a character, a 'feeling' they got from the story, the story premis, etc. I've read some really creative takes on the originals.  To me it is like my walls when I was a teenager...they were plastered with posters of the Osmond Brothers.  Me and my girl friends acted out these very detailed ongoing fantasies where we were each married to one of the brothers (god have I dated myself). Had I had any inclination to write and they had written a book instead of music, I could so see myself writing fan fiction with such pure intent... It would be a huge testament to my adoration of the original.  If I were an author, and there were thousands of others who declared their work fan fic and devoted that amount of time, discussion, tribute to my original, I feel like I would feel good about that sort of thing. That something I did had that kind of effect.



> I'd like to see fan-fiction writers use their medium for something more useful. Alas, most of them are not doing it for the story, but for themselves


----------



## Deleted member 56686

TKent said:


> I guess it depends on intent. I actually don't have a lot of experience except for the many fanfic writers on Wattpad. Many of them are head over heels in love with the original, whether it be a character, a 'feeling' they got from the story, the story premis, etc. I've read some really creative takes on the originals.  To me it is like my walls when I was a teenager...they were plastered with posters of the Osmond Brothers.  Me and my girl friends acted out these very detailed ongoing fantasies where we were each married to one of the brothers (god have I dated myself). Had I had any inclination to write and they had written a book instead of music, I could so see myself writing fan fiction with such pure intent... It would be a huge testament to my adoration of the original.  If I were an author, and there were thousands of others who declared their work fan fic and devoted that amount of time, discussion, tribute to my original, I feel like I would feel good about that sort of thing. That something I did had that kind of effect.




So which Osmond brother we're you stuck with? :lol:


----------



## TKent

Mr mustard oddly I liked Jay _ and I was not yet a teenager now that I think about it

I went to punk rock in my teens

I happen to know we are the same age


----------



## Deleted member 56686

TKent said:


> Mr mustard oddly I liked Jay _ and I was not yet a teenager now that I think about it
> 
> I went to punk rock in my teens
> 
> I happen to know we are the same age



Which is why I had to ask :lol:. I was a punk rocker too when everyone else was listening to Fleetwood Mac and the Eagles. Had to be different I guess :lol:


----------



## Greimour

I guess most of my views are with Cadence.

I don't mind if fan-fic used the same characters, place and setting...but it bugs me when they rewrite the original rather than create something new.

Along with work by J.K.Rowling (which I like) and 50 shades of grey (which I never read) ... there are other stories equally unpopular on this forum. Such as Twilight. 
But I did like the books when I read them the first time. I had a lot of issues with it but ultimately I liked the story. 

So fan-fic: Let's say someone wished Bella was turned into a Vampire when she got bitten the first time in book one. That Edward didn't reverse the effects by sucking out the 'poison'. That would be rewriting the story and I am not in favor of it but would be super tempted to read it anyway. 

Even Stephanie Meyer wished she could rewrite Twilight following  Eclipse. The vampire that was granted Amnesty by the Carlise at the end  of the battle (who eventually got killed anyway by the Volturi) was  called Bree Tanner. S. Meyer brought out a short story called "The Short  Second Life of Bree Tanner". It told Bree's story. Meyer wished at that  point she could rewrite the story from Eclipse onward to keep Bree  alive. She said something along the lines of: "given the choice, I would  probably keep it as it is...but if I could go back in time, it would be  tempting to not kill her off. Maybe instead she could..."

~~~

Then there are the other choices in fan-fiction, like; "What happens next?"

Some fans don't want the story to end, so they keep it going. Those are fanfics I like the idea of. 

Still, what happened after Breaking Dawn? Did the Volturi ever attack them again? Did the Cullen coven grow again? Did Renesme ever have children with Jacob?

~~~

I loved Kung-Fu Panda. I am a big fan of Jack Black anyway but that animation was awesome. I liked number 2 equally as much and I wrote a fanfic Kung-Fu panda 3. I never shared it with anyone, it was just for me. But I don't see a problem with picking up where the writers left off. We like to imagine what happens next. I don't see any problem with writing it down and sharing it.


So I guess for me it depends on what the fans did/do. 

1. Rewrite the story so it shows what they wish happened (Ugh. Bad!)
2. Write what happens next after the author finished what they planned to do. 
3. Write a prequel.
4. Write something else that happened in the same world at the same time but with different characters... i like that - especially if it indirectly affects the main story in some way. For example - it was might convenient of the Eagles to show up in time for Gandalf and Co' to be rescued when being attacked by the white Orc. But another story during the same timeline could explain why/how they got there so fast. What they were doing in the area. It in no way changes the main story but it can be equally thrilling and partially enlightening. 
5 [...]


What fan fiction is capable of is too much for me to sum up with a single opinion. It crosses borders of genres. It spans timelines the author may not have considered and it rarely claims to be anything more than it is. I am a believer that when a story is being written, it belongs to the writer. But when it is published it belongs to the publisher and when purchased it belongs to the buyer. At that point, it is theirs to do with what they will as long as it doesn't break copyright laws.

*Shrugs*

I am super tired with a killer headache, but think I explained what I think of it enough.


~Kev.


----------



## Kevin

> went to punk rock in my teens


It was a rough time...  in these parts radio had gone to the likes of loverboy or starship...


----------



## Kyle R

I've never understood the hatred toward fan fiction

It's written by fans, for fans, for free. They're writing (and reading) because they love the original work so much they want to have more of it. I think it's a great thing. Excellent publicity for the original creations.

I hope I can reach a level of success where I begin seeing fan fiction stories involving my characters. 

That would be a huge compliment. It would mean readers love my stories so much they can't get enough of them. :encouragement:


----------



## T.S.Bowman

I have never really understood the compulsion to write fanfic.

I don't think there has been a single time I have read a book or watched a movie where, at the end of it, I said to myself "Man...I wish this story could go on from here. Maybe I should just write something myself." I can understand really liking a character or a bunch of them. But, I am more one to trust the author when they say the story is done. 

Dean Koontz wrote two books that are right near the top of my all time favorites list. One is called Seize The Night and the other is called Fear Nothing. They both have the same cast of characters. The lead is a fella named Christopher Snow who has some kid of disease that makes it very difficult for him to venture out into the sunlight. The premise of the books is a little "out there" but not completely unbelievable.

But, as much as I love those two books, not once have I ever gotten the idea to write more of their story. As much as I would love to see Mr Koontz write another Snow novel, it has never occurred to me to write as much as a short story about the characters.

I have discussed this with a few of my fanfic writing friends, and I respect their reasons for doing it. 

But, I sometimes can't help but see it as someone taking the hard work of someone else and doing their own thing with it just for the sake of doing it. Whether or not they are good enough at the craft to actually pull it off? The vast majority of the stuff let's us say "hell no!"

I just feel like...if you are going to put that kind of effort into writing a story, why not do something of your own rather than piggyback the work of someone else?


----------



## aj47

I want to put in a word for fanfiction.  It is a tradition in the SF community. It used to be typewritten and mimeographed and published in fanzines. A lot of times when people say "fanfic" they really mean "fanfic on the Internet" but fanfic has been around a long, long time.  I think its staying power attests to its filling a need.  If you don't like it, don't read or write it, but if you don't read/write it, you're not really in a good place to castigate it, either.

Local-to-me, there is an annual conference for that sort of thing.  I don't participate because it's Not My Thing, but they've held this conference for over twenty years.  People attend it.  In some circles, it is referred to as "slash" because of the sub-genre of erotica involving CharacterA/CharacterB. Not that I'm an authority--I just know some of the organizers of this other conference that is not mine.  

In any case, it's been around awhile and is not likely to go away anytime soon.


----------



## InstituteMan

I don't particularly object to fanfic on principle or anything. I also haven't really seen any that I much liked (but, then, I haven't looked), and I haven't ever felt motivated to write any.

As to the critical question at hand, I downloaded the free first chapter of 50 Shades to my kindle, and reading that was something of a turning point for me. The chapter really inspired me to start sharing my own work. I mean, if THAT could sell ever how many bazillions of copies, I figured I had a chance to at least have my stuff read and liked.


----------



## TKent

And so it wasn't useless  



> The chapter really inspired me


----------



## InstituteMan

TKent said:


> And so it wasn't useless



Exactly. All of my writing is inspired by Chapter 1 of Fifty Shades of Grey. I've *got *​to make that my Twitter bio.


----------



## TKent

I dare you. 



> Exactly. All of my writing is inspired by Chapter 1 of Fifty Shades of Grey. I've *got ​to make that my Twitter bio.*


----------



## shadowwalker

I got back into writing with fanfic. I worked my ass off to write the best stories I could and improve my writing; I loved getting constructive critiques and ended up with a beta group for both fanfic and original work. Two of the authors in my beta group started out with fanfic and both are now trade published authors - one just released her 7th book, the other signed a two-book deal out of the gate. A number of published authors still write fanfic. But yeah, we're all just lazy plagiarists with egos the size of Manhatten and talent that could barely fill a thimble, with no hope of ever getting legitimately published. We're such losers, the lot of us, if we'd only realize it.


----------



## MzSnowleopard

Hi, my name is Mindy and I'm a member of the PNDDI fan club.

Throwing in my 2 cents here. I got my start in fan-fic with Star Trek, there was one standing rule however- no cannon characters allowed. These characters being the ones familiar to the franchise. you could have your character mention having a memory of one or something like this but portraying one was a sin against the altar of Roddenberry.

This to me was a different concept vs. fan-fiction. A writer was creating their own stories based on the concepts of Roddenberry. By definition- IMO- that's role-playing. To be more specific, that's literary role-playing. There are books and guidelines both in stores and online for a multitude of RPGs, from table top to live action, all based on the concepts that someone else created. All someone has to do is pick up the book or info, create a character based on the info and start writing.

For the passed 11+ years I've managed a site devoted to Literary RPG. We've had a few Cannon characters slip in here and there but mostly, members stick with "player" created characters. It's one of our top rules: No Cannons allowed as primary characters.

I've also delved into the fan-fiction. I too do not see a problem with it to an extent. If the story is dead, long ended, or the writer is just done with it- So long as the writer doesn't have a problem with fans writing fan-fiction- that's cool with me. It's when a FF-writer takes the Cannon characters 'out of character' that I have issues. I see it as a corruption of characters fans have come to know and love as they are.

Anyway, second to my novels- I focus on my Lit-RPG and limit my fan-fiction to Stargate, BSG, and Captain Power & tSotF. I use these stories primarily to give my novels a rest when I have writer's block with them. Sometimes it works, sometimes not so much.

BTW- Pilot's Not Dead, Damn It!


----------



## NerdyMJ

I'm not gonna lie. I like fanfiction because I connect better with the fictional characters I read about in comic books and books or see on TV than I connect with people in real life. For example, when I was in middle school and my mom turned off our cable and our internet, and sold our PC to pay for her gambling habit, I just wanted my favorite anime character to be there to take care of me. Cause if she wouldn't then he would because he was a good person. So I bought two notebooks from the Dollar Tree and wrote a 210 page long fanfiction. Then I got older, I realized that I was going to get better by doing this because writing was the best way to get better at writing and this was writing.Above all else, though, I love fanfiction because when I got older I realized, this is how a lot of people -- children, teenagers, and me -- start off as writers. So I love searching for legitimately good fanfictions, critiquing them, and encouraging them to write because I want there to be more writers in the world, and if this is what gets them writing, then who cares? As long as they're trying to actively become better writers in their genre, who cares?
The current fanfiction I'm writing because I find to be challenging because I'm pushing myself to write things I would normally avoid. Grey areas, action scenes, family drama, and I feel like if I'm going to mess up somewhere, it's better I mess up in a fanfiction. I mean, I can still learn from it, right, so why the hell not? Plus, it allows me to explore the social dynamic of the world in a way most people avoid, so I like that.
But you have to understand people do not write these to offend the authors or because we're perverts. We write them because we connect with the characters emotionally and do not want their stories to end or because we weren't ready for them to end or for a million other reasons. It actually can be very challenging to write, too, and I don't think it's fair for anyone here to say that it isn't challenging if they haven't written a fanfiction or attempted to write one. You have to know the characters, inside and out, you have to think like them and be able to put yourself one hundred percent in their shoes just like you do with original fiction. Saying people shouldn't write fanfiction because it's nothing more than fantasy fulfillment is like saying people shouldn't play simulation games like The Sims or Animal Crossing or Minecraft, and people use those games to tell beautiful stories and to create beautiful things. The Sims 3 was actually being used to teach architecture. That's fantasy fulfillment. I honestly do not believe that people do not write original fiction so that they can fulfill their fantasies. I mean, writing is the ultimate form of escapism. You get to control the entire damn world with just a lead pencil and eraser. If that's not fantasy fulfillment, I don't know what is. And it isn't stealing ideas, either. It is expanding upon ideas just as Stan Lee did when he created the Fantastic Four right after DC put out the first Justice League comic books. The head of Marvel came to Stan Lee and told him to expand upon the idea of a team of superheroes and then the Fantastic Four were born, and then the X-Men, which is only the best-selling comic book of all freaking time in the entire freaking world. That is what fanfiction writers do, overall, we look at the characters and the ideas for the character and say, "What if they did this or met a character that did this or went here?" and we put it onto paper. That is, by definition, also what effing comic book script writers do. They do not come up with the characters. They are given a premise for a character and are told to write a story for them. I guess they're stealing freaking ideas, too, but you don't have to worry about them because unlike f*cking Elliot or whoever wrote that 50 Shades of Grey garbage, they barely get paid freaking anything. Sometimes the main characters aren't involved in the fanfiction process. There are dozens of X-Men: Evolution fics on FFN that simply revolve around a cast of original characters that exist in the same universe. If you consider a fanfiction such as that to be plagiarism, then every Star Wars or Star Trek or television series spin-off is actually plagiarism, too.  I mean, when someone creates a spin-off, they are basically just putting a fanfiction on film, IMO, or paper or whatever. Of course no one wants to say that cause then they'd be associated with the dirty, plagiarising fanfiction writers who only know how to write lemons and Mary Sues, wouldn't they?
I'm done defending it, though, because I am honestly enraged at how narrow-minded a lot of the people here are about this topic and how a lot of them are stigmatizing people simply for doing what they love and for celebrating the characters that they love. Saying fanfiction should not be written or isn't real writing or is bad is just as creatively stifling as a book burning or The Banned Book List, IMO. It's as I stated above, like it or not, fanfiction is usually how young people start writing these days. It gives them confidence as writers and helps them to learn. By discouraging it, you discouraging an entire generation of future authors, poets, playwrights, and lyricists.


----------



## T.S.Bowman

shadowwalker said:


> But yeah, we're all just lazy plagiarists with egos the size of Manhatten and talent that could barely fill a thimble, with no hope of ever getting legitimately published. We're such losers, the lot of us, if we'd only realize it.



Wow. Defensive much?

You'll never see me call writers of fanfic untalented or lazy or whatever. Like I said, I have had this conversation with several people, including Snow, and I can respect why they do what they do.

Whatever floats their boat.



> If you consider a fanfiction such as that to be plagiarism, then every  Star Wars or Star Trek or television series spin-off is actually  plagiarism, too.



Not considering that Rodenberry had a hand in most of them. After all, one cannot plagarize one's own idea.


----------



## Kyle R

T.S.Bowman said:


> I have never really understood the compulsion to write fanfic.
> 
> ...
> 
> I just feel like...if you are going to put that kind of effort into writing a story, why not do something of your own rather than piggyback the work of someone else?



It's for the pleasure of other fans. It's putting a unique spin on familiar, beloved elements.

The Colors of Fiction challenge operates in a very similar way. You have the Firestarter story. Then entrants write their own fan fiction based on it.

You see? You are a fan fiction writer and you don't even know it!


----------



## T.S.Bowman

Kyle R said:


> It's for the pleasure of other fans. It's putting a unique spin on familiar, beloved elements.
> 
> The Colors of Fiction challenge operates in a very similar way. You have the Firestarter story. Then entrants write their own fan fiction based on it.
> 
> You see? You are a fan fiction writer and you don't even know it!



Well...in the most technical sense I suppose that would be accurate. However, there have been several authors who have let it be known that they do not appreciate fanfic of their work. In the CoF the "fanfic" is pretty much a given and the Firestarter won't be telling the entrants not to use their ideas or characters.

As stated above, I can understand and respect the motivations. I just can't really relate to them because I have never found myself, after a movie or tv show or reading a book, wanting to change the character arcs or plot lines or even coming up with a completely different idea for the characters that someone else has created.

I don't consider fanfic plagarism, or idea theft or whatever the hell people want to call it. 

The way I see it, (and I am not stating this to disparage anyone who writes fanfic so don't get your panties in a bunch) fanfic takes as much effort to write as straight up fiction. So, with that in mind, the effort to write it could probably be better served in creating your own characters and stories and worlds.

*steps into plexiglass box to avoid the flying objects*


----------



## shadowwalker

T.S.Bowman said:


> Wow. Defensive much?



Sorry - well, no, not really - but I get sooooo sick and tired of listening to people diss not just fanfic but fanfic writers. They ignore the fact that fanfic writers can and do move on to original fiction, and can and do get trade publishing deals. They ignore the fact that trade published authors have written and still do write fanfic. They ignore the fact that many authors/owners embrace fanfic and its writers. Many of the detractors have never even read fanfic, yet they can go on for pages about how awful it all is. 

If you (generic) don't want to write it, don't write it. If you don't want to read it, don't read it. If you don't want fanfic written about your masterpiece, post it on your blog, let fanfic sites know, and it won't get written. And if you don't understand the reason(s) for writing it, talk to fanfic writers. You'll find their reasons are as varied as those of any other writer - and just as similar.


----------



## T.S.Bowman

I think that a lot of the detractors of fanfic are coming from the same camp as the ones about self publishing. 

There is only so much garbage one can force him/herself to sift through in the attempt to find good quality before he/she decides it's just not worth it and just paints the whole with a broad brush.


----------



## Kyle R

T.S.Bowman said:


> I can understand and respect the motivations. I just can't really relate to them because I have never found myself, after a movie or tv show or reading a book, wanting to change the character arcs or plot lines or even coming up with a completely different idea for the characters that someone else has created.
> 
> ...
> 
> *steps into plexiglass box to avoid the flying objects*



*Throws a live ostrich at the plexiglass, just for fun.*

One way I like looking at it is to compare fan fiction to children dressing up as their favorite superheros, princesses, and monsters for Halloween. They do it because they love the characters. 

Sure, a kid could _create_ her own original costume (probably with the help of Mom and Dad), but if she wants to be Princess Anna from Disney's _Frozen_, why not let her? It won't harm anyone. 

And if it makes her happy, isn't that all the reasoning that's needed? :encouragement:


----------



## spartan928

T.S.Bowman said:


> I think that a lot of the detractors of fanfic are coming from the same camp as the ones about self publishing.
> 
> There is only so much garbage one can force him/herself to sift through in the attempt to find good quality before he/she decides it's just not worth it and just paints the whole with a broad brush.



I tend to challenge the notion that fanfic or self-published novels create a world where readers are frustrated because they have to sift through mountains of garbage to get to anything good. Check this out; there are over 180,000,000 active websites but people only visit 5-6 different sites on a regular basis. I don't have trouble finding sites I want because I trust them. Fiction is the same. People gravitate toward the familiar. Readers want stuff that has the cred they are looking for and they get that through sites they frequent, reviews, word of mouth, magazines or past experience with an author. 

Even if there were 1,000,000 self-published novels hitting the streets a month I'd be none the wiser. It isn't fair for me to paint a broad brush, because I can tell in the first 5 sentences if a story works for me and I'm already disregarding 99.99% of what's floating in space anyway. More power to you, I don't care. Fanfic your brains out. I spend a heck of a lot more time sitting in traffic than I do reading stuff I don't like. Yeah, I know, the Internet is rife with pushing, feeding and cramming stuff in my face. But again, I do what everyone else does; I ignore it.


----------



## spartan928

By the way, and I'm not directing this at you TS, but in my experience the venom I see directed at the world of self-publishing or even fanfic comes from writers who are pursuing that publishing model. Is their competition 90% crud? Yes! Does it make it harder to get noticed? Yes! Does it create a situation where readers tend to not care right off the bat? Absolutely! But getting credentials as a writer takes the same path as any form of success. You have to earn it.

Lastly, the notion that Captain Kirk, Darth Vader or Dumbledore are sacred is absolutely bogus. They aren't real people, and even if they were, people have the right to make up stuff and write it down to their hearts content. And, they have a right to share it with others without asking for money for writing based on said fictional, copyrighted characters. To me, the discussion starts and ends there.


----------



## stevesh

The problem I have with fanfiction is the laziness and lack of competence it implies about its authors. In science fiction and fantasy especially, creating the world of the work is the hard part. To have others come along and appropriate your efforts for their own inferior scribblings must be galling for the real writers.


----------



## Bruno Spatola

A lot of the arguments 'against', or mildly opposed to fan fiction, seem to start with the foundation that writers of said fiction write nothing else. How do you know they don't write their own stuff, too? Show me the data. Those who _do_ write it exclusively, do so in fairly niche parts of the internet, as far as I'm aware (correct me if I'm wrong). I have never stumbled upon it accidentally, or seen advertisements for sites dedicated to it. 

I fail to understand why people think it's a waste of talent, or whatever the point is. Why do people do anything, really? Because they enjoy it. That's that. It's none of our business, unless it's your characters being implemented. I consider adaptations like _Sherlock_ as fan-fic, because it's fiction written by fans, albeit fans who are professional writers. Some is bad; some is good; some is brilliant.

I must have a different brain or something, because I see no issues with it at all. Plagiarism is the only negative I can see that's related to it, and that's not so common.

If you don't like it, that's fine. I don't, really, but who cares? I don't mean that in a mean way, it's more of a shoulder shrug.


----------



## Apple Ice

No one here (as far as I'm aware) has ever had fanfic produced from their own work which means we're missing a rather important perspective on the subject. Author's who do have the honour/annoyance have very contrasting views anyway, so it just boils down to the person again. 

I think just live and let live. If people write fanfiction then it really does not affect anyone in a negative way. In fact, if you're against fan-fiction, be grateful people are writing it because it means they can't be published from it and it takes them out as competition in an already very saturated market. There are practical elements to it too. 50 Shades of Grey just shows the power of fan-fiction and how productive and helpful it can be in accomplishing the dream.

Personally, I've never tried fanfiction but I have always thought Doctor Who has loads of potential and is just executed poorly and marketed to the wrong audience. So, I may give that a go. For now I'm just working on my own rubbish.


----------



## Bishop

spartan928 said:


> Lastly, the notion that Captain Kirk [is] sacred is absolutely bogus.


----------



## patskywriter

Self-taught musicians often copy their favorite musicians until they find their own voices. I have no problem with some writers doing the same. I feel that the songs I write are "not too bad" because I spent so much time learning how to play standards in the style of my favorite musicians/composers before setting off on my own.


----------



## Bishop

patskywriter said:


> Self-taught musicians often copy their favorite musicians until they find their own voices. I have no problem with some writers doing the same. I feel that the songs I write are "not too bad" because I spent so much time learning how to play standards in the style of my favorite musicians/composers before setting off on my own.



That's actually a fantastic point that I really should have considered, given how many Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath songs I've learned in the pursuit of better guitar playing. ^.^


----------



## TKent

That is such a good point!  And so many artists are influenced by art that they loved. For me, I generally fall in love with something and it makes me want to do it. 

There was a song, Rhythm is a Dancer from the 80s that I used to love. It is in two completely different versions now, one by Bastille (alternative) (Rhythm of the Night) and one by Jeremiah (R&B/rap). To me they were a tribute to the original and actually made me go back and look up the original on youtube and enjoy it all over again.  Bastille also has a song called Laura Palmer that is a tribute to Twin Peaks (gosh I loved that show). So anyway, obviously not everyone sees it this way and there are always going to be people with not so good intentions but overall, I see it as a positive thing.



patskywriter said:


> Self-taught musicians often copy their favorite musicians until they find their own voices. I have no problem with some writers doing the same. I feel that the songs I write are "not too bad" because I spent so much time learning how to play standards in the style of my favorite musicians/composers before setting off on my own.


----------



## shadowwalker

As far as that's concerned, painters copy famous paintings as they're learning. And that's actually copying, not just using it as a base. And google "Mona Lisa" and see how many non-parody 'remakes' there have been.


----------



## Kyle R

I'd have to be pretty selfish to get upset about my readers writing their own fantasies based on my work for the enjoyment of other fans.

Keep in mind the fact that the people writing fan fiction are your readers. The people buying your books. They are your _fans_. The people that would fall all over themselves to see you do a public reading, while the rest of the world wouldn't care about you.

They write fan fiction about your characters because they think you're _that good_ of an author. They spend their free time imagining stories in your story-world because _​that's how much of an impact you've made on their lives._

So, I find it ironic when people hate on fan fiction. It, to me, is a way of hating your own fans.


----------



## Bishop

Kyle R said:


> I'd have to be pretty selfish to get upset about my readers writing their own fantasies based on my work for the enjoyment of other fans.
> 
> Keep in mind the fact that the people writing fan fiction are your readers. The people buying your books. They are your _fans_. The people that would fall all over themselves to see you do a public reading, while the rest of the world wouldn't care about you.
> 
> They write fan fiction about your characters because they think you're _that good_ of an author. They spend their free time imagining stories in your story-world because _​that's how much of an impact you've made on their lives._
> 
> So, I find it ironic when people hate on fan fiction. It, to me, is a way of hating your own fans.



Completely agree; I'd be flattered as hell if people wrote fan stories of my characters. Even the weird porn ones!


----------



## T.S.Bowman

Kyle R said:


> I'd have to be pretty selfish to get upset about my readers writing their own fantasies based on my work for the enjoyment of other fans.
> 
> Keep in mind the fact that the people writing fan fiction are your readers. The people buying your books. They are your _fans_. The people that would fall all over themselves to see you do a public reading, while the rest of the world wouldn't care about you.
> 
> They write fan fiction about your characters because they think you're _that good_ of an author. They spend their free time imagining stories in your story-world because _​that's how much of an impact you've made on their lives._
> 
> So, I find it ironic when people hate on fan fiction. It, to me, is a way of hating your own fans.



One author I know of who did/does a pretty decent job of allowing the fans to become part of the stories is Piers Anthony with his Xanth series.

When he first started it, it was strictly on an "I'll do it myself" basis. But then, after a while, he found that the publisher was getting inundated with pun suggestions, took a look, found a lot of them to be pretty funny and useful and decided to start _asking_ the fans of the series to suggest puns to use.

That seems, to me, to be a pretty good way of letting the fans "in" and allowing them to use their creativity to help create more books in the series without having to see fanfic based on those stories.

Listen. I'm not saying that I would find it relatively cool to have people like Side Worlds so much that there started to be fanfic for it. But what I prefer would be that they send me the ideas they have for my characters and my world and let me see if I could incorporate any of them. It doesn't matter how well a reader thinks he/she knows my characters. I am always going to know them better. I will know how they would react to certain things and situations. How they would best deal with problems. As the creator of those people and that world, I know it better than anyone.

I think that's where a lot of the authors who are against fanfic are coming from.


----------



## Bishop

T.S.Bowman said:


> It doesn't matter how well a reader thinks he/she knows my characters. I am always going to know them better. I will know how they would react to certain things and situations. How they would best deal with problems. As the creator of those people and that world, I know it better than anyone.



I know George RR Martin *consults with one of his fans* for facts about his world! I think every writer does it differently. I'd be honored if people put Captain Dask into their own imaginations and made stories about him, even if he does things that he, as a character, would never do. It's the fan rewriting the character's personality some, shifting it for their own imaginative purposes. Sure, the character is mine, and if they want to make money off of C. Dask, then they're going to meet my legal team (A.K.A., my brother). But posting it online, for other fans to read and comment on? Go for it. My fans would know what's cannon and what isn't. They're smart enough to take it for what it is and enjoy/not enjoy it at their own leisure. The important thing is, they're sharing in their love for _me_, and I'm the most important one of them a--I mean, and that is good for my book sales and merchan--I mean that means they're enjoying my work. That's the most important part to me. Yes. >.>


----------



## T.S.Bowman

Bishop said:


> I know George RR Martin *consults with one of his fans* for facts about his world! I think every writer does it differently.



*Consulting* with the fans is exactly what I was referring to with Piers Anthony. 



> I'd be honored if people put Captain Dask into their own imaginations and made stories about him, even if he does things that he, as a character, would never do.



That, for me, is the sticking point. If a person/reader who professes to "love" a character, then writes a scenario putting that character into positions to do things they would never really do isn't showing the love for the character. That would be showing the love for the character that the person doing the fanfic *thinks the character should be. *Not the one the author has created.




> It's the fan rewriting the character's personality some, shifting it for their own imaginative purposes. Sure, the character is mine, and if they want to make money off of C. Dask, then they're going to meet my legal team (A.K.A., my brother). But posting it online, for other fans to read and comment on? Go for it. My fans would know what's cannon and what isn't. They're smart enough to take it for what it is and enjoy/not enjoy it at their own leisure. The important thing is, they're sharing in their love for _me_, and I'm the most important one of them a--I mean, and that is good for my book sales and merchan--I mean that means they're enjoying my work. That's the most important part to me. Yes. >.>



I get all that as well. Of course it would be good for sales and marketing. But to me, that isn't the issue.


----------



## Bishop

T.S.Bowman said:


> *Consulting* with the fans is exactly what I was referring to with Piers Anthony.



 I'm just pointing it out because the fan knows more about Westeros than Martin does, by his own admission. ^.^



T.S.Bowman said:


> That, for me, is the sticking point. If a person/reader who professes to "love" a character, then writes a scenario putting that character into positions to do things they would never really do isn't showing the love for the character. That would be showing the love for the character that the person doing the fanfic *thinks the character should be. *Not the one the author has created.



"Love" doesn't mean you don't want to explore changes. I suppose to me, there's just no harm, no risk. It doesn't offend me that people want to explore different facets of a character's personality, shift them, change them a little. It's like a video game, some people play a little differently than others. I plugged into their imagination and inspired them with my character, and they saw their own "what if" and went from there.



T.S.Bowman said:


> I get all that as well. Of course it would be good for sales and marketing. But to me, that isn't the issue.



I suppose I just don't see a downside to it, unless the fan fic writer is trying to sell it as their own work.


----------



## Kyle R

T.S.Bowman said:


> If a person/reader who professes to "love" a character, then writes a scenario putting that character into positions to do things they would never really do isn't showing the love for the character. That would be showing the love for the character that the person doing the fanfic *thinks the character should be. *Not the one the author has created.



To me, that's like saying if a child plays with a Woody action figure from _Toy Story_ and pretends that Woody saves Buzz from a speeding train, the child is in the wrong. 

How dare a child do such a thing? There has never been a runaway train in the _Toy Story_ universe. Clearly this child is disrespecting the characters, as well as the Pixar writers, and the child should be stopped.

No child should ever be allowed to use their imagination with established characters in such a way.

It brings up an interesting question:

What's the difference between a child pretending Woody saves Buzz from a speeding train, and a fan writing a story where Woody saves Buzz from a speeding train?

The way I see it: the motivation is the same. It's pretend. For fun. Born from a love of the characters. :encouragement:


----------



## Jeko

> They're writing (and reading) because they love the original work so much they want to have more of it.



If I loved someone, I wouldn't tell them to add or change this and that. I'd love them the way they were.

Wanting to have more of something more often stems from dissatisfaction, and the fan-fiction community, IMO, promotes the idea that you never have to like a story - you can always change it to make it more likeable, and you can change it for other people as well. Not that everyone does this, but the feeling is there. People can come to know their favourite characters more through reams of fantasy than through what the author actually wrote.


----------



## Jeko

> What's the difference between a child pretending Woody saves Buzz from a speeding train, and a fan writing a story where Woody saves Buzz from a speeding train?



Little; but you're missing the point. In that example, the characters are acting completely _in character_. This also reinforces my thoughts about fan-fiction being something you grow out of. It's child's-play; the beginnings of creativity, but a shadow of the greatness of what's to come once you stop using other people's stories and start _using _other people's stories, if you get what I mean.

A similar example; I like cosplay. Cosplaying is fun. Cosplaying is when you try to capture a character in a video game, anime or movie as accurately as possible, or modify them for humorous effect. Either way, you're working from the original. 

The problem I have with fan-fiction is that it often works _away_ from the original, as many authors have found, getting in the way of the artistry of the original and the author's intended effect. Many non-sexualised characters, for example, are viewed in a sexual light because of adult fan-fiction regarding them.


----------



## MzSnowleopard

patskywriter said:


> Self-taught musicians often copy their favorite musicians until they find their own voices. I have no problem with some writers doing the same. I feel that the songs I write are "not too bad" because I spent so much time learning how to play standards in the style of my favorite musicians/composers before setting off on my own.




Excellent point, one of my college dorm-mates was an art major. From her I learned that some teachers instruct by having students "recreate" works by the masters.


----------



## Morkonan

JC.Axe said:


> ...What are your thoughts? Is fanfiction lacklustre and stale? Or does it have a rightful place as legitimate creativity? ..



Of course it is legitimately creative. Is it particularly creative? Well, I suppose that must be judged on individual merit.

Consider a television series. You're a staff writer for the series. You have a "bible", an outline of each character, their history on the show, the setting, the major plotlines and story bits, and a bunch of other stuff that the producers feel must remain the way it is. (ie: love interests, jobs, family, critical characters, etc..) The show's bible is regularly updated with critical story information as it emerges during production. Your task as a staff writer is to write an interesting or entertaining screenplay that remains within the general theme of the show and that is constrained by the show's "bible."

That is not "fanfic." That's writing for food and it's a perfectly noble enterprise. 

Consider a typical fanfic writer. They start out with a Setting that has already been created for them. They use characters that have known attributes and canon history. They have a set of unrealized plots, "what if" conditions, or even an original idea of their own. They start writing, then Kirk and Spock have sex...

That's typical fanfic, if we judge it all in one big sweaty lump.

Honestly, I think that the farther a piece of "fanfic" goes from anything to do with the original Setting, Characters or Storylines, the more truly "creative" it is. But, still, it's apparent that most fanfic relies on someone else having created a particular Setting and having already established certain Characters, relationships and themes. Those are all parts of a writer's bread-and-butter work and skipping all of that somehow makes fanfic writers into something "less" than they should be, in my opinion. There's just a creative component that's being missed, somewhere, and it's difficult pin down. That's just how I feel about it and it's only a matter of opinion. 

I've done three pieces of short "fanfic." Two of them were entirely for the humor potential.  One of them was the beginnings of a story that I have since re-written, taking what I had developed in the earlier piece and constructing an entirely different Setting, purposefully avoiding anything to do with copyrighted work or IPs.

In none of these "fanfic" works did I consider myself to be doing anything more than playing in someone else's sandbox.


----------



## patskywriter

When it comes to fanfic, I think it might have started with the ancient Greeks. Way, way, *way* back in the day before they worried about copyrights, lots of writers wrote stories based on the same characters (often the Greek gods).


----------



## Bishop

Morkonan said:


> They start writing, then Kirk and Spock have sex...


----------



## Kyle R

Cadence said:


> This also reinforces my thoughts about fan-fiction being something you grow out of. It's child's-play; the beginnings of creativity, but a shadow of the greatness of what's to come...



I can see why people think that. Though, I consider it a misconception.

The belief seems to be that fan fiction authors aren't capable of creating their own unique stories, as if they are "stuck" in the waddling stages of creativity, still hampered by a belief that they need to copy others.

It's a logical conclusion, except for the fact that there are professional authors who also write fan fiction. Many of these authors are, at least speaking in terms of publishing success, much more accomplished than the majority of writers out there. They certainly aren't hampered by an inability to create, as evidenced by their own published original works.

Yet they still enjoy putting their own unique spins on the characters, or story-worlds, of other authors.

Neil Gaiman, for example, has published several works of fan fiction—see his _Chronicles of Narnia_ fanfic story, “The Problem of Susan," for one. 100% fan fiction. An interesting story, too. Rather creative (granted, a bit disturbing, as well). Though he's still taking characters directly from C.S. Lewis and using them to populate his story.

Hopefully we can disregard the whole notion that all fan fiction writers are creatively immature or inexperienced. It simply isn't true. Some fan fiction writers are very accomplished, creative authors.


----------



## TKent

Margaret Atwood just hosted a fan fiction contest on Wattpad.  She basically asked people to write fan fiction for a specific story, and the winner gets their story under Margaret Atwood's page in Wattpad which means huge visibility as she has a lot of followers there.  I loved the concept.


----------



## JStoudt

So, if I want to write a story set within an existing world, but not involving existing characters, does that count as fan fiction? For a long time I've dreamed of writing a serialized fiction story set within the Monster Hunter universe which is my favorite game. Capcom created such an amazing world that inspired me so I don't want to go about creating my own cheap knock-off version of it.


----------



## Morkonan

JStoudt said:


> So, if I want to write a story set within an existing world, but not involving existing characters, does that count as fan fiction? For a long time I've dreamed of writing a serialized fiction story set within the Monster Hunter universe which is my favorite game. Capcom created such an amazing world that inspired me so I don't want to go about creating my own cheap knock-off version of it.



Maybe.

There are certainly "Shared Setting" stories out there. One of my favorites is the "Thieve's World" series. It's a collaborative work by a great many noted fantasy and science-fiction authors. (Surrounded by some interpersonal controversy between two that were married... But, that's another story.)

I think that telling a story with an original character in a shared Setting moves much further away from the idea of "fanfic" and more into the realm of "fan fiction."  If you really develop your own ideas and move into original content, even within the shared setting, you'll be more into the realm of original fiction than not.

In the one piece of story-worthy "fan fiction" that I wrote, I only used a few ideas, borrowed from a video game. As I started to get more interested in developing this piece into a stand-alone story or series, I started to look for ways to remove the pieces of the Setting that I had co-opted. Some were critical, some weren't. But, I feel much better about the story's potential than I did when just playing around with fan fiction. Now, it's its own story, free of copyright/IP issues and entirely original. I can also go anywhere I want with it, do anything I want with it and develop it in any way that best serves the story. You can't do that in a shared Setting.

Note: Most Marvel and D.C. comics take place in a shared Setting. There are a great many "Dungeons and Dragons" and "Warhammer" books out there, all drawing upon a shared Setting. There are oodles of Star Trek and Star Wars books, too, each drawing from a shared Setting. So, don't be too put off by the idea.


----------



## JStoudt

Morkonan said:


> I think that telling a story with an original character in a shared Setting moves much further away from the idea of "fanfic" and more into the realm of "fan fiction."  If you really develop your own ideas and move into original content, even within the shared setting, you'll be more into the realm of original fiction than not.
> 
> In the one piece of story-worthy "fan fiction" that I wrote, I only used a few ideas, borrowed from a video game. As I started to get more interested in developing this piece into a stand-alone story or series, I started to look for ways to remove the pieces of the Setting that I had co-opted. Some were critical, some weren't. But, I feel much better about the story's potential than I did when just playing around with fan fiction. Now, it's its own story, free of copyright/IP issues and entirely original. I can also go anywhere I want with it, do anything I want with it and develop it in any way that best serves the story. You can't do that in a shared Setting.



Interesting. The way my mind works, I almost always come up with a fan fiction when I find a good story. The best stories to me are the ones I can imagine myself as a character in. While I've never written any of them down, I have taken the ideas from these pseudo-fanfics and incorporated them into the project I'm working on now. Since they use my own original characters and my own setting they really feel like they're my own now. It's nice to see I'm not the only one who works this way.


----------



## A_Jones

I admit to have dabbled.  I actually wrote a couple of really cute stuff!  I have a Labyrinth and Zelda WW one shot each.  I also began writing a full novelization for Zelda Ocarina of Time.  Of course it was completely different because I put my own touches on it.  I stopped writing it to finish my own original work.  Did you know in Japan fan fiction is not frowned on so heavily... in fact copyright works differently. People publish their fan fictions all the time haha.


----------



## Deleted member 56686

I had always thought of writing a future Episode of Quantum Leap based on a major news event in my life. I never will, of course, but I always try to think in my head how it could work. Sometimes I can find fan fiction enjoyable when it's done right.


----------



## MzSnowleopard

Two of the characters in the Psionics Lit RPG I write were originally created based on the X-men universe- and started in a chat room on AOL. over the years the 'game' evolved into what it is today. It's now a scenario that while it retains reflections of the Marvel universe, it no longer contains any of the copyright material. We've developed our own enemies, allies, and organizations in the Psionics Universe. 

For me half the fun is in figuring out what can be done from 'bouncing-off' the posts from the other writers in the group. There have been times when the symmetry has been amazing.



Morkonan said:


> They start writing, then Kirk and Spock have sex...
> 
> That's typical fanfic, if we judge it all in one big sweaty lump.


 
This is not any typical fanfiction I've read. This is slash fan-fiction. And the only writers I know who take this route are the ones who either enjoy crossing the line, enjoy the shock value, or have some fantasy they're trying to play out.


----------



## EmmaSohan

Apple Ice said:


> No one here (as far as I'm aware) has ever had fanfic produced from their own work which means we're missing a rather important perspective on the subject. Author's who do have the honour/annoyance have very contrasting views anyway, so it just boils down to the person again.



Right, I fantasize about someone writing fanfic on my world famous novel.

Today I realized they might have my main character do something she wouldn't do. I can't deal with that.


----------



## shadowwalker

Cadence said:


> A similar example; I like cosplay. Cosplaying is fun. Cosplaying is when you try to capture a character in a video game, anime or movie as accurately as possible, or modify them for humorous effect. Either way, you're working from the original.
> 
> The problem I have with fan-fiction is that it often works _away_ from the original, as many authors have found, getting in the way of the artistry of the original and the author's intended effect. Many non-sexualised characters, for example, are viewed in a sexual light because of adult fan-fiction regarding them.



I don't think you made the argument you think you did.

You seem to think that fanfic doesn't involve 'mature' creativity - and yet your cosplay would seem to stifle creativity because you "try to capture a character in a video game, anime or movie as accurately as possible". Second, you take one small area of fanfic (slash) and act as though it is the whole of fanfic. It is not. In fact, OOC ('out of character') is just as serious a 'crime' in many fandoms as in your cosplay - and quite frankly, I've seen some excellent slash where the characters are definitely in character (unless one is homophobic, of course).

Once we toss out the inaccurate assumptions on your part, I see no difference between cosplay and fanfic - other than the fact, of course, that you participate in one and the other you don't.


----------



## T.S.Bowman

Kyle R said:


> To me, that's like saying if a child plays with a Woody action figure from _Toy Story_ and pretends that Woody saves Buzz from a speeding train, the child is in the wrong.



There is a mistake in your logic, Kyle. Saving Buzz from a speeding train is EXACTLY what Woody would do.



> How dare a child do such a thing? There has never been a runaway train in the _Toy Story_ universe. Clearly this child is disrespecting the characters, as well as the Pixar writers, and the child should be stopped.



Umm....being the Pixar fan you are, have you not seen Toy Story 3? The opening sequence is, indeed, a runaway train.



> No child should ever be allowed to use their imagination with established characters in such a way.
> 
> It brings up an interesting question:
> 
> What's the difference between a child pretending Woody saves Buzz from a speeding train, and a fan writing a story where Woody saves Buzz from a speeding train?
> 
> The way I see it: the motivation is the same. It's pretend. For fun. Born from a love of the characters. :encouragement:



Say what you will, but I see a difference between a child letting his/her imagination loose with characters made up by someone else, and a late teen/adult doing it.

The child most likely doesn't have the proper tools to create their own characters whereas all the tools, tools which you promote the use of time and time again on this forum, are available for any adult to seek out and use to create their own world and it's inhabitants.

Again, I am not saying anything bad about people who write fanfic. I am entitled to my opinion and I am simply giving it.

I respect those who choose to write fanfic. It's their choice to do so and I wouldn't try to tell them they shouldn't do it.

But the logic I have seen some using seems flawed to me.


----------



## Kyle R

T.S.Bowman said:


> Umm....being the Pixar fan you are, have you not seen Toy Story 3? The opening sequence is, indeed, a runaway train.


Whoops! No, I haven't seen it yet. But it's on my "to-watch" list. 



			
				T.S.Bowman said:
			
		

> I respect those who choose to write fanfic. It's their choice to do so and I wouldn't try to tell them they shouldn't do it.


Then it seems, despite our minor differences, we're on the same page after all. :encouragement:


----------



## T.S.Bowman

Kyle R said:


> Whoops! No, I haven't seen it yet. But it's on my "to-watch" list.



That would explain it. 




> Then it seems, despite our minor differences, we're on the same page after all. :encouragement:



For the most part, we usually are.:biggrin:


----------



## Morkonan

MzSnowleopard said:


> T...This is not any typical fanfiction I've read. This is slash fan-fiction. And the only writers I know who take this route are the ones who either enjoy crossing the line, enjoy the shock value, or have some fantasy they're trying to play out.



It's an appeal to absurdity...  I love the absurd, properly administered in carefully measured doses. But, for the most part, the fanfic that I have read, which isn't much, tends to lop it on in great steaming heaps. It's as if the appeal to the absurd, something reaching far beyond the principle storylines, is what much of fanfic depends upon. If one is going to do that, far better to create completely outside of someone else's sandbox.

However, I do make a distinction - "Fanfic" isn't "Fan Fiction." I think that there's room for Fan Fiction, well-told stories involving as much creative license and freedom as possible. However, most "Fanfic" tends to give me the impression that someone spends far too much time typing with one hand, rather than writing with two. 

Thus, the appeal to the absurd paired with "Fanfic."

(PS - I've poo-poo'd "fanfic" a couple of times, here. It didn't win me an accolades, to be sure. But, I'm not trying to be derisive of those who dabble in it. That's not the point. The point is that I think it's largely a waste of talent. People who write good fan fiction should be out there writing good stories that are their own. If they can not do that, if they can not write outside of fan fiction, then there's something wrong and they've horribly constrained their own world and talent.


----------



## shadowwalker

Morkonan said:


> People who write good fan fiction should be out there writing good stories that are their own.



Why? What if they just don't want to write original stories? What if they're writing fanfic as a hobby, which is what most of this is? They do this for fun, nothing more.



Morkonan said:


> If they can not do that, if they can not write outside of fan fiction, then there's something wrong and they've horribly constrained their own world and talent.



Again, why do you think there's something wrong? Why can't people just do their own thing without a bunch of other people, who don't know them from Adam, acting as if they're doing something horribly wrong or that there's something off about them? 


Why is it that so many people think everyone else has to share their goals and their tastes in order not to be a waste of space?


----------



## Morkonan

shadowwalker said:


> ...Why is it that so many people think everyone else has to share their goals and their tastes in order not to be a waste of space?



It's just an opinion. I don't think that their goals are a "waste of space." Over the decades, I've probably written thousands of pages of narration, description and dialogue for "Dungeons and Dragons" sessions for my players. Some of it was quite involved. I once wrote an entire "book" of false mythology, ancient gods, magical spells, clues, puzzles, blah, blah, that the players had to use as a resource book in order to ultimately "triumph over evil" in a campaign that lasted fifteen years. 

But, all that was just... doodling. Was it "writing?" In some ways, yes, it was. But, would I call it "writing" to other writers? No, not really. It was just... kinda writing stuffs.

People can do what they wish and I am a great believer in freedom. Of course, one should exercise their right to personal freedom and personal creativity, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else or restrict their own rights! I would even commend a well-written piece of fanfic, I suppose. But, I just _don't grok _the whole "fanfic/fanfiction"... thing. Hey, I've had a lot of experience in playing in other people's worlds, but there's a limit that I can not push past and remain comfortable. At least, not in fiction writing. Gaming? Sure. "Writing fiction?" No. If I was contracted to write for an existing IP, that's something else. But, willingly jumping into to someone's world, knocking over the furniture and playing with the lives of their characters? I... just don't know. I can't see it happening. My heart would not be in it and, as any writer knows, if your heart's not in your writing, it's tortuous.

I'm being honest, here, honestly.  Someone says to me: _"Mork, here are some characters and a setting, go with it"_ and I'm fine. But, that is as much as I can take of someone else meddling in "my" story. Someone say's to me _"Here are some characters with a long history, audience expectations, a well-developed setting and a bible to follow" _and I'm first going to have to ask for a paycheck, since I know I would suck as a sitcom scrip-writer and would need to get some cash, up front, before they fired me...

Shadowalker, I just can't comprehend, and I use that word purposefully, the satisfaction or adoration people feel towards "fan fiction." I don't get it. As a writer, if I were to attempt to write fan-fiction/fanfic/whatever it would be like someone has put a collar around my neck and has told me that I am forbidden to "think." My task would be not to think, but to do, not to create, but to emulate.

I_do_not_emulate. I can't. Is it my own shortcoming? Maybe. It may be that I am deficient in the eyes of The Muses of Fanfic or some other creative spirits. If so, then, being that I know no other experience, I am thankful for that, just as a blind man may be thankful that he can hear.

I am a blind man telling you that hearing is better than seeing. Don't pay too much attention to me, those with vision that I lack.


----------



## Kyle R

Morkonan said:


> I don't get it. As a writer, if I were to attempt to write fan-fiction/fanfic/whatever it would be like someone has put a collar around my neck and has told me that I am forbidden to "think." My task would be not to think, but to do, not to create, but to emulate.
> 
> I_do_not_emulate.



Fan fiction doesn't have to be limited to mindless emulation.

I could write a story about Darth Vader getting plastic surgery, becoming a professional male escort, and, after meeting the new love of his life, is accidentally sent back in time to the Pleistocene epoch, 1.5 million years ago. There, he battles primitive beasts and the social isolation of being "the hairless one," until through an act of bravery where he rescues a habilis child from the jaws of a forty-seven foot crocodile with his bare hands, he wins the trust of the local tribe and becomes their new pack leader. Through his teachings of how to use the Jedi Force, his _habilis_ friends help Anakin gather the materials he will need to build a time machine to return to his own time so he can be reunited with his love... but a rival clan of brutish, hypertrophied hominids makes Anakin question his decision to leave. If he does, his new habilis family will surely be massacred. 

Where's a light saber when you need one?


----------



## shadowwalker

Morkonan said:


> It's just an opinion. I don't think that their goals are a "waste of space." Over the decades, I've probably written thousands of pages of narration, description and dialogue for "Dungeons and Dragons" sessions for my players. Some of it was quite involved. I once wrote an entire "book" of false mythology, ancient gods, magical spells, clues, puzzles, blah, blah, that the players had to use as a resource book in order to ultimately "triumph over evil" in a campaign that lasted fifteen years.
> 
> But, all that was just... doodling. Was it "writing?" In some ways, yes, it was. But, would I call it "writing" to other writers? No, not really. It was just... kinda writing stuffs.



I don't see the difference between your D&D writing and fanfic. "Doodling"? Sure, why not? Some doodles are scrawls, some are sketches that turn into good paintings. Do I call my fanfic writing, to other writers or anyone else? Of course I do, because I was one of those who used it for practice and experimenting and improving. Does everyone who writes fanfic? No. For them, it's just their way of being part of the community called Fandom. Some write, some draw, some discuss - but the focus is the participation, not the medium. 

Bashing fanfic and fanfic writers for the quality is like bashing fast food for not being haute cuisine - it makes no sense because fast food isn't trying to be haute cuisine. But every now and then, you find some really fine pommes frites...


----------



## ppsage

> For them, it's just their way of being part of the community called Fandom.


I think this is the key. A sort of built-in audience appreciation potential. As to the writing of it, I think it has as much bandwidth as anything else and would hesitate trying to generalize. But, I have never done it or even seen it or, actually, never heard of it except here. Are there pieces based on Hesiod?


----------



## Jeko

> You seem to think that fanfic doesn't involve 'mature' creativity - and yet your cosplay would seem to stifle creativity because you "try to capture a character in a video game, anime or movie as accurately as possible".



Indeed; I was using cosplay to highlight the enjoyable nature of the limitations of such imitation, which are also found in fan-fiction. I can't argue against the fact that people like writing fan-fiction. What I _am _​arguing is that you can either go towards or away from a concept, and that cosplay does more of the former, while fan-fiction can contain a lot of the latter.

I also don't think cosplay is in any way mature; it's more a statement of anti-maturity, IMO.

I also don't think there's much point sing it as an example beyond this; else, the subject will go off on a tangent about the specifics of cosplay, which aren't really relevant to the thread.



> Second, you take one small area of fanfic (slash) and act as though it is the whole of fanfic.



Not at all. I'm saying that as long as that area of fan-fiction exists, it exists an issue for the whole body. I can't support fan-fiction because of the potentiality for this kind of literary corruption. It doesn't matter how many good examples there are of it; as long as I feel like it can harm stories, I'm not going to encourage it.

One of the things i often say to fan-fiction writers is that they should try writing their fan-fic while imagining that the author is reading every word the moment they write it. With that kind of focus, I think we'd get a lot less of the harmful sort of fan-fiction that I'm talking about. Some issues would, however, still remain.


----------



## shadowwalker

Cadence said:


> Not at all. I'm saying that as long as that area of fan-fiction exists, it exists an issue for the whole body. I can't support fan-fiction because of the potentiality for this kind of literary corruption. It doesn't matter how many good examples there are of it; as long as I feel like it can harm stories, I'm not going to encourage it.
> 
> One of the things i often say to fan-fiction writers is that they should try writing their fan-fic while imagining that the author is reading every word the moment they write it. With that kind of focus, I think we'd get a lot less of the harmful sort of fan-fiction that I'm talking about. Some issues would, however, still remain.



So you condemn all of fanfic based on one portion of it. My goodness, do you limit your original reading based on such far-reaching judgements as well? I hope not, or I fear your reading list will be very, very small. I would also wonder why you consider slash to be harmful. I doubt anyone reading fanfic mistakes it for the original author's work, and therefore would understand it's that particular fanfic writer's imagination at play. 

As to the originators reading fanfic, there have been dozens of discussions about that on the various fanfic forums. Most giggle a bit and don't worry about it - the consensus being that if the originator hasn't banned it, they have no problem with the contents. 

Funny how so many folks are willing to "speak up" for the originators, when so many originators are actually perfectly okay with fanfic, and some even write it themselves. Perhaps it would be best to speak of your own preferences, and not "on behalf" of those who are perfectly capable of stating their own desires, and have done so.


----------



## Kyle R

When you get the urge to denigrate what others choose to write—stop. Take a breath. Exhale. 

Now take that time and energy you were about to waste, and use it to improve your own writing instead. :encouragement:


----------



## Jeko

> So you condemn all of fanfic based on one portion of it



No. Again, you're putting me into the camp of fan-fiction-haters when all I'm doing is listing issues I have with it. Am I not allowed to talk about problems I have with something? Isn't the thread title asking what I think about fan-fiction?  Answer: I think fan-fiction has some issues. If you disagree, you're living in a fairy world, because everything has issues. What matters is whether those issues can be helped, and what matters then is whether people are willing to admit that those issues exist in order that they can be helped.

I'm not speaking up for anyone but myself and my own concerns about the literary world and what I think isn't benefiting it. And I'm not denigrating fan-fiction; I exposed the issues I think exist with it in the hope that we could have a discussion about how some of those issues could be solved. But the angle of many people in this thread - that there's nothing wrong with writing fan-fiction - is what causes fan-fiction to fail to reach the potential that it has as a literary medium.

I want to like fan-fiction. So help me like it, because I can't while I can see issues within it and people who are always turning a blind eye to them.


----------



## scaryclone

sadly, agreed, a lot of the fics that get noticed out there are the perverted, non plausible ones. 

i wrote fan fiction as a way of expanding and improving my writing style when no self made "original" characters/ideas came to mind. 

got kicked from one such site for pointing out the impossibility of some events and inaccuracies on characters' personalities. anyway

it's a good form of escapism all in all, there's some fan fics out there that blew my mind pleasantly and i prefer to a lot of "original" literature. 

good fan fic is just harder to find


----------



## shadowwalker

Cadence said:


> No. Again, you're putting me into the camp of fan-fiction-haters when all I'm doing is listing issues I have with it.



And yet you state "I can't support fan-fiction because of the potentiality for this kind of literary corruption. It doesn't matter how many good examples there are of it; as long as I feel like it can harm stories, I'm not going to encourage it."

How does this harm the original story? How is exploring a romantic and/or sexual relationship between characters 'literary corruption'? How can one segment of 'genre' (for lack of a better word) somehow contaminate the entire thing? 

I'm not a huge fan of slash myself, yet I've found excellent slash stories, and I know damn well there are excellent non-slash stories in fanfic. So if you "want" to like fanfic, perhaps you should quit being so judgemental of one segment and actually consider the rest of it. And while you're at it, remind yourself that most of these writers are, AGAIN, not aspiring to be literary giants, but "merely" enjoying the fandom. Quit expecting a silk purse to appear from a sow's ear and then condemning pigs when it doesn't happen.


----------



## bookmasta

The best type of imitation is flattery, as annoying as it can be when it comes to writing. Fan fic is okay to me as long as a writer is doing it for the fun of a series they like. I wouldn't mind it. Of course, most fanfic is associated with writers, particularly young, who are just starting out. Once you get serious though and branch out into your own, its futile to keep writing it if you're seeking publication via self or traditional, and its against the law. And on another note, why would someone want to copy someone else's characters and storyline in their writing when they can make their own? Not a single of my 1.2 million words have ever been fan fiction or ever will be.


----------



## scaryclone

writer's block.
obsession with fandom in question/want to express. 
need to befriend other fans.


----------



## shadowwalker

bookmasta said:


> And on another note, why would someone want to copy someone else's characters and storyline in their writing when they can make their own?



Because they can. Because it's fun. Because they can experiment. Because they can make mistakes and learn from them. Because they can be part of the community. Just because.

What are your reasons for your hobbies? Do they really have to make sense to anyone else?


----------



## bookmasta

shadowwalker said:


> Because they can. Because it's fun. Because they can experiment. Because they can make mistakes and learn from them. Because they can be part of the community. Just because.
> 
> What are your reasons for your hobbies? Do they really have to make sense to anyone else?



Writing is a lot more than a hobby. Much more. And in the field of writing, yes, your writing has to make sense to readers, the people that buy your book among other woks, if you choose to publish. I don't know anyone that would buy fanfic. Otherwise, I don't see why its such a big deal, really. Young writers tend to start with fanfic before branching out to projects of their own creative prowess. So I guess in that case it can be considered a stepping stone in the growth of a writer. Anyway, this is my own opinion, and I know that not everyone will share it.


----------



## Bishop

bookmasta said:


> Writing is a lot more than a hobby. Much more. And in the field of writing, yes, your writing has to make sense to readers, the people that buy your book among other woks, if you choose to publish. I don't know anyone that would buy fanfic. Otherwise, I don't see why its such a big deal, really. Young writers tend to start with fanfic before branching out to projects of their own creative prowess. So I guess in that case it can be considered a stepping stone in the growth of a writer. Anyway, this is my own opinion, and I know that not everyone will share it.



For some people, writing is just a hobby. I know I'm not submitting anything to publishers, and don't really know if that's going to change anytime soon. I just write for me, for my own volition and expression. And mostly? Fun.


----------



## Deleted member 56686

Bishop said:


> For some people, writing is just a hobby. I know I'm not submitting anything to publishers, and don't really know if that's going to change anytime soon. I just write for me, for my own volition and expression. And mostly? Fun.





Well true. Why write if you're not getting any enjoyment out of it? I'm having a heck of a lot of fun with my own writing


----------



## shadowwalker

bookmasta said:


> Writing is a lot more than a hobby.



To you. To me. But not to a lot of others, including those who write original work. This seems to be the big problem people have with fanfic - they refuse to acknowledge that writing _doesn't have to be_ taken seriously or seen as a profession or written for publication/money. It can be written _solely _for the enjoyment of the writer, who may or may not decide to post it somewhere just in case others might also enjoy it.


----------



## MzSnowleopard

Bishop said:


> For some people, writing is just a hobby. I know I'm not submitting anything to publishers, and don't really know if that's going to change anytime soon. I just write for me, for my own volition and expression. And mostly? Fun.



Gasp, oh the horror... you write _for the fun of it? _That's sacrilege. How dare you right for fun... It's not supposed to be fun. Writing is serious business! 

ROFLMAO - this was how someone responded when I told them that some of my works were 'just for fun'. :wink2:


----------



## Jeko

> How does this harm the original story?



I ask my some of my friends what they think of character X, and they start telling me all the fan-fiction they're read about character X and what people who done with them and character Y, and immediately we're not talking about the author's work at all. That or the conversation usually goes that way. Unless those friends don't read much fan-fiction; then we actually talk about the original work.




> How is exploring a romantic and/or sexual relationship between characters 'literary corruption'?



The author/reader constructs characters based on relationships. Alter those relationships, and you end up altering the character. That, in my view, is corruption; making something wrong, and often perverse, to suit the imagination of the reader.



> How can one segment of 'genre' (for lack of a better word) somehow contaminate the entire thing?



A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough. A film with one terrible scene is worse film overall. A book will a terrible ending is a worse book overall. A painting of a crowd with one botched face is a worse painting overall.

The question is, how can one segment of anything _not_ contaminate the entire thing? This is how art works, and why I try to separate fan-fiction into *internal* and *external *fantasies; the former I try to encourage, as it involves the writer exploring possibilities within the text in order to understand the author's work better. But because most fan-fiction I read is the latter, I don't encourage it overall. I just try to redirect people's fan-fiction writings into something more useful; better fan-fiction, or original storytelling.



> So if you "want" to like fanfic, perhaps you should quit being so judgemental of one segment and actually consider the rest of it.



Now that would be stupid. As I've said before, the 'one segment' you're talking about is that majority of what I've seen, and I never like something that has more cons than pros. 

Do you want me to look for better examples of fan-fic? If I have the time to do that, I have the time to read original fiction, especially that which is much more useful to me as a writer. So I'm not going to.


----------



## MzSnowleopard

I get your point- it's like the old saying goes "don't let one apple spoil the barrel."


----------



## Seedy M.

Back to the original question: What do you think of fanfic?
I try not to.
I don't knock it or promote it. It holds absolutely no interest for me. Back in the times of FanZines in SciFi, I followed a little. It was so dull or went so far-out I lost interest very quickly. If you like or don't like it, so what? It's here and will stay here.


----------



## shadowwalker

Cadence said:


> The question is, how can one segment of anything _not_ contaminate the entire thing?



So if read one bad scene in a book you throw it out? Never read that author again? Never read that genre again? How in the world can a slash story in one fandom ruin a non-slash story in another? How does a slash story in my fandom have anything whatsoever to do with my stories (non-slash)? 

Slash stories are clearly marked as such. People who don't like them don't even have to look at them. But - every fanfic is contaminated by the mere fact that they exist. My stories are corrupted. I weep for my wasted time and efforts. Fie on thee, slash!


----------



## scaryclone

i think maybe it gets ruined when someone begins to associate all the altered versions of the character with the original.

if it is done in a plausible, subtle, classy manner, then it can work... imo.


----------



## Morkonan

shadowwalker said:


> ... It can be written _solely _for the enjoyment of the writer, who may or may not decide to post it somewhere just in case others might also enjoy it.



I know that this might be controversial to some, but I don't consider something to be "Writing" unless you are writing with the intent to communicate something to someone else. (Perhaps it would be better to call it "literary writing?") It is possible that some written work that we value very highly was not created by the author with the intent to be read by others. (Several books/poems/stories have been released posthumously , even though the original author asked that the works be destroyed.) I have reservations about that sort of thing, as well. But, I can't know the author's intent unless it was specifically noted and, even then, there are caveats in assuming there is no implied "reader" being written for. If one puts words down on a page, no matter the form, is that "writing?" I think in absence of a purpose for an intended audience, it would be very difficult to apply the act to what we regard, traditionally, as "literary writing."

It may be that it is impossible to write without an intended audience. The "Ideal Reader" phrase has often been used by writers to describe the "Reader" that they're writing for. Indeed, the entire concept of written language implies that it is an externalization of internal thoughts, which intrinsically would hold that this writing is intended for another to read, since one is certainly self-aware. We may not even be mentally capable of writing without imagining empathy with an external reader - It just might not be possible or even purposeful for us to construct externalized symbolic logic for the benefit of doing anything else but communicating with another, even if that "other" is some empathic imagining of our own self. But, this sort of thing certainly doesn't include "reminder notes" and "shopping lists", does it?  

Which, brings up a pertinent question: If "writing" only for oneself is entirely _equitable_ to "literary writing", then is a shopping list or a reminder note written to oneself equitable to "literary writing?" If we can say that they are not, then we can _not_ also say that "writing for oneself" is literary writing... There's a conundrum here and we must move to separate "self writing" into more categories in order to more accurately judge it when comparing it to purposefully writing for an external Reader. And, the further we act to separate the various forms of "self-writing", the more loosely defined we're going to end up making the definition of "self-writing" to begin with. 



> ..This seems to be the big problem people have with fanfic - they refuse to acknowledge that writing _doesn't have to be_ taken seriously or seen as a profession or written for publication/money..



I think you're stretching the point a bit, here, and I don't think people are saying that there isn't any "value" in fanfiction. Obviously, there is some. 

What is "taking something seriously" anyway? I didn't take any of the "Xanth" novels by Anthony "seriously."  Does that mean they have no value? I also paid for them and Anthony got paid for his work, but all that means is he is a "Professional Writer."

Again, my "personal" issues with viewing fan-fiction's relevance to "writing" are my own.


----------



## Jeko

> every fanfic is contaminated by the mere fact that they exist. My stories are corrupted. I weep for my wasted time and efforts. Fie on thee, slash!



There are two things we're talking about here:

1) 'Fan-fic' as a concept, medium, etc.
2) 'A fan-fic' as a body of work.

Take all the 2)'s and you make 1).

I'm talking about 1). Individual stories aren't corrupted, but the existence of fan-fiction as a whole.

And no, I don't throw out a book if it has a bad scene in it - why the extremes all of a sudden? But if a book has a bad scene, of course I like that book less.


----------



## Morkonan

Cadence said:


> ...And no, I don't throw out a book if it has a bad scene in it - why the extremes all of a sudden? But if a book has a bad scene, of course I like that book less.



I've done it... Usually, though, it's just a point of being inundated with so much garbage that "the one scene" is the straw that broke the camel's back and my patience is exhausted. I don't throw a book away, though - I never throw books away! I give such books to someone else, so they can suffer through them. 

There are three books that come immediately to mind, all much beloved first-books in popular series, that have qualified for my "round file" in individually distinguished ways. Oh, wait, make that four. I just remembered a real stinker...


----------



## MzSnowleopard

I can honestly say that I've never thrown away a book either, I've thrown at least one across a room to hit the wall but have never thrown one away. Most often, these are the ones I let people borrow. I've yet to have one returned. This is why they're on the 'borrow' list.


----------



## Nippon Devil

Saying that fan fiction cheapens the work it's based off of is like  saying a kid cheapens his favorite comic book every time he draws  characters from it. I don't see how fan-fiction hurts anyone, save the  people who read it.

Most (Emphasis!) fan-fiction is pretty bad, but I have to ask myself if it's because it's fan-fiction or because 98% of it is written by "aspiring artists". There have been plenty of people who write and base works off of existing works. The lord of the rings movies were technically fan-fiction. They used all the characters from the books, are they not art? Did the director not use creativity? Marvel and DC comics are filled to the brim with characters that have been around for nearly a century. People still read about and enjoy these characters because people other than the original author were aloud to breath new life into them. 

Fan-fiction is just like any other medium. The problem is that it's mostly practiced by people who don't want to take the time to write interesting stories, or simply don't know how to.


----------



## InnerFlame00

When I was little I would spend hours tracing Disney characters.  Then I  moved on to copying by eye.  From ages 4-12 all I drew were Disney  characters.  However, it wasn't wasted time.  It helped me develop my  hand/eye coordination, and now because of that practice I can eyeball  almost anything from real life and draw it.  In the same way I feel that  fan fiction is good practice.  You have the framework (world) already  set up for you, so it's easy to practice character interaction and plot  building.  It's also a fun challenge to see how well you can portray the  characters.  I've been practicing my witty repartee in fanfiction for  long time and I have to say the character interactions in my original  fiction are now better for it.

Fan fiction gets a bad rap because  of the huge amount of terrible works out there and the fact that a  great majority of it involves sexual pairings that would never happen in  cannon.  However, just because some of it is bad does not mean all of  it is bad.  There are a lot of diamond in the roughs out there, you just  have to know how to find it.  More often than not, people who write  great fan fiction go on to write great fiction.

Personally, I'm a  bit of a fan fiction snob though.  I avoid the ones focus on sex or  some perfect OC insertion because they exist purely as fantasy  fulfillment (and boy does it get weird sometimes - I happened upon an  Elrond (LOTR)/Picard(TNG) slash fic once.  Seriously.  WTF.).  What I  look for are character studies.  The neat thing about fan fiction is  that many of them provide a way to focus on one interesting character  that may not get a lot of air time in canon.

Then there's AU fan  fiction, which essentially just steal the character names and put them  into the fan fiction writers original story line.  At that point I feel  like the people ought to just be writing their novel!  For example, I  saw a 'hunger games' fan fiction where Katniss was in the two towers at  9/11 and years later, coping with PTSD seeks out the firefighter who  saved her (Peeta).  That could be a good novel, but seems rather silly  as a fan ficiton.

In any case I generally feel there is nothing wrong with fan fiction as long as no profit is being made.


----------



## shadowwalker

Cadence said:


> And no, I don't throw out a book if it has a bad scene in it - why the extremes all of a sudden? But if a book has a bad scene, of course I like that book less.



Again, I go back to your own statement: "how can one segment of anything not contaminate the entire thing?". Erego, one bad scene in a book contaminates the quality/enjoyment of that book. If you dislike fanfic as a whole because of one segment, it follows that you would dislike an entire book because of one segment - so why would you bother finishing it? Your extreme is that all fanfic is 'contaminated' simply because there is one 'genre' that you don't like. Don't open the door if you don't want people to go through.

- - - Updated - - -



Nippon Devil said:


> Most (Emphasis!) fan-fiction is pretty bad, but I have to ask myself if it's because it's fan-fiction or because 98% of it is written by "aspiring artists".



Actually I would say that 98% of written by _non_-aspiring artists - people who are fans first and foremost, and write only because they can do that slightly better than they can draw.


----------



## Nippon Devil

Shadowwalker, aspiring artists was between quotations to show the title was self proclaimed.


----------



## Morkonan

Just a thought:

You buy a coloring book. It has the outlines of pictures for you to color. So, you color them. Is that now "art?" Yes, in a way, it is. Are you now an "artist?" Maybe a little bit, yes. Would anyone hang it in a gallery? Probably not, but they'd hang it on the refrigerator if they were your parents.


----------



## Bishop

Morkonan said:


> Just a thought:
> 
> You buy a coloring book. It has the outlines of pictures for you to color. So, you color them. Is that now "art?" Yes, in a way, it is. Are you now an "artist?" Maybe a little bit, yes. Would anyone hang it in a gallery? Probably not, but they'd hang it on the refrigerator if they were your parents.



I've seen some damn impressive coloring books, Mork.


----------



## shadowwalker

Nippon Devil said:


> Shadowwalker, aspiring artists was between quotations to show the title was self proclaimed.



But most fanfic writers do not claim to be 'aspiring artists' - they only claim to be, and are, fans who happen to choose writing to express that. I'm not sure how many times that has to be said. Which is why - again - comparing most fanfic to published work is ridiculous. Most of it is not written for the same purpose. 

But some of it is written to a higher standard, which is why ridiculing fanfic as a whole is so insulting to many, those who are trying to improve and those who have "proven" themselves by being pubished. If putting fanfic down makes people feel better, for whatever reason, so be it. And pat yourselves on the back for making those who turn to fanfic to gain confidence and skill feel like jerks. I just hope they have enough sense to ignore it.

As for me, I'm proud of the work I've done in fanfic, but this discussion is going the same way as so many others involving what writers "should" and "shouldn't" do. Continue, folks, to jab away, but do it without me.


----------



## Kyle R

Morkonan said:


> Just a thought:
> 
> You buy a coloring book. It has the outlines of pictures for you to color. So, you color them. Is that now "art?" Yes, in a way, it is. Are you now an "artist?" Maybe a little bit, yes. Would anyone hang it in a gallery? Probably not, but they'd hang it on the refrigerator if they were your parents.



Here are some jaw-droppingly good FAN ART illustrations of Venom, from Marvel Comics. I think they're pretty darn impressive. Certainly at a professional level.

Some fans are tremendously talented. That goes for written fiction, too. :encouragement:


----------



## Jeko

> If you dislike fanfic as a whole because of one segment, it follows that you would dislike an entire book because of one segment - so why would you bother finishing it?



Usually, so I can talk about it; discussion is part of the entertainment a story brings. And if the book matters to me, I always see it through to the end. With other books, like Mork, I often do the ceremonial 'removing of the bookmark' if things take a wrong turn; but that's usually if a bad scene isn't followed by something that makes up for the loss of interest I get.

Back on topic: contamination is not an extreme, it's just logical. Put one rotten apple in a bag; would you buy the bag? No, you'd buy the one without the rotten apple in it. The whole bag is worse off because of that one apple. 

Also, it's far from there being one 'genre' I don't like. Did you read my initial list of concerns? In almost all fan-fic, at least one of those comes up for me. My issues with fan-fiction are far from limited to a particular area, genre, group, angle or framework. The 'bad apple' in this case is not certain stories, but the common underlying principles of the medium that, in my opinion, work against the good of the source.


----------



## aj47

Cadence said:


> Back on topic: contamination is not an extreme, it's just logical. Put one rotten apple in a bag; would you buy the bag? No, you'd buy the one without the rotten apple in it. The whole bag is worse off because of that one apple.



What is wrong with taking the rest of the bag and leaving the bad apple at the store?


----------



## Jeko

> What is wrong with taking the rest of the bag and leaving the bad apple at the store?



You end up paying for a rotten apple. I'm talking about pre-packaged goods here. And what if you're ordering online? What if you don't notice the apple until you get home and put it in your fruit bowl and have one of your kids pick it up and say 'Dad, why it is all brown inside?'


----------



## Morkonan

Kyle R said:


> Here are some jaw-droppingly good FAN ART illustrations of Venom, from Marvel Comics. I think they're pretty darn impressive. Certainly at a professional level.
> 
> Some fans are tremendously talented. That goes for written fiction, too. :encouragement:



Can you help me find some similar examples in fan fiction?

I went to a very large fan fiction site, clicked on category, clicked on the first link I could find from a storyline/setting I was somewhat familiar with and found... Well, let's not say what I found.  Let's just say that I would like to see some examples of what fan fiction aficionados consider to be "good fan fiction" and I need some help in finding them.


----------



## aj47

Cadence, fanfic is not like a bag of prepackaged apples any more than science fiction, romance, mystery, or any other genre is.  As a consumer, one can pick and choose what to read in the field.  I've got a copy of a friend's _Great Gatsby_ fanfic...I'm awaiting his answer as to whether I can share it here.


----------



## Jeko

> Cadence, fanfic is not like a bag of prepackaged apples any more than science fiction, romance, mystery, or any other genre is. As a consumer, one can pick and choose what to read in the field.



Indeed; but judging by my afore-posted list of concerns, one will always run into the issues I have with it. It's not a matter of X is bad and Y is good; the bad apple, in this instance, is the underlying principle(s) that, IMO, work against the good of literature in general. That's found in most fan-fiction; the 'external fantasies' I previously identified. I'd argue that 'internal fantasies' are actually beneficial to the stories they come from, but alas, not many of them exist.


----------



## Kyle R

Morkonan said:


> Can you help me find some similar examples in fan fiction?
> 
> I went to a very large fan fiction site, clicked on category, clicked on the first link I could find from a storyline/setting I was somewhat familiar with and found... Well, let's not say what I found.  Let's just say that I would like to see some examples of what fan fiction aficionados consider to be "good fan fiction" and I need some help in finding them.



I thought this was written pretty well—and I don't even know anything about _Doctor Who_: http://www.whofic.com/viewstory.php?sid=2501

Maybe a _Doctor Who_ fan can tell if the POVs are written in character. 

John Scalzi's novel, _Fuzzy Nation_, is a work of fan fiction. Apparently the writing was good enough to be professionally published and earn him a paycheck. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004OA63YO/?tag=writingforu06-20 

I also posted a link to a Neil Gaiman _Chronicles of Narnia_ fan fiction short earlier in this thread. 

There are tons more, it just takes time to separate the wheat from the chaff. It's the same problem I encounter with published fiction, too (most of it I don't consider up to par, but it makes the gems all the more worthwhile). 

As Sturgeon's Law states, *90% of everything is crud... but the remaining 10% is worth dying for.* :encouragement:


----------



## aj47

The Great Gatsby: A New Conclusion
By: Jeff Berg
An alternate continuation of the storty starting at this passage:
“Beat me!” he heard her cry. “Throw me down and beat me, you dirty little coward!”
A moment later she rushed out into the dusk, waving her hands and shouting”
========================================
              The vehicle stopped suddenly – its fresh tires burning on the ash-covered pavement. The smell of newly burned rubber hung it the hair, and it started to rain once more, combining the sleep-inducing heat with a dreary wetness.
              Myrtle approached the faint green automobile, looking past its slender curves and illustrious shape straight into the driver seat, her eyes aglow with the fire of vivacity. Her hand reached down into her dress and towards her stocking as she continued to stare into the eyes of her adversary, with her plump, crimson lips starting to move in a manner of oration.
              “He never loved you.”
========================================
              Her legs quivered as she rushed hurriedly out along the dusty, dirt-ridden road, looking straight ahead, as if she was expecting something to come from off into the distance. The great, grand eyes of Doctor T.J. Eckleburg stared down at her like God watching over his people, and she cowered in their enormity, trying desperately to avoid locking sight with the massive figure – she had enough to carry without such added judgment. The woman could only hope for an escape from the world she was now running from. And then she heard a strangely, yet soothingly recognizable shrill shriek calling out to her, begging her, pleading her to draw closer.
              This unexpected sound caused her heart to pulsate furiously, her hands and legs and feet and arms tingling passionately. Her appendages and orifices stirred, and she moved hastily towards this siren that yearned for her presence, as a bright, jubilant grin quickly spread across the corpulence of her countenance. Her body began to impart an artificial radiance, seeking frantically to brighten up a situation that was certainly most dim. In an instant, she was prompty swept away from a land filled with the broken vestiges of the American delusion, with those menacing eyes still watching her as she fled dangerously swiftly from mortality in search of immortality.
========================================
              One shot was all it took. A single bullet to the skull instantly took the life of the young, stupid, and startled Mrs. Daisy Buchanon. A claret liquid dripped from the sole penetration like water perpetually falling from an aged, exhausted spout. Her mouth hung slightly open in an idiotic stupor, with the dim green grime of death slowly being propelled from her inanimate figure, while perfume of her premature demise intertwined with lifelessness that now gripped the desolate, impoverished expanse.
              The passenger of the “death car” still remained transfixed in the blood his paramour, his eyes wide and cheeks white, continually transforming more and more into a man resembling that of the undead. Whatever vitality he did possess had by this time left his body and escape into atmosphere as he sat alone with the company of a corpse, with the downpour of precipitation still thrusting itself downwards upon the earth, sucking up all happiness in its pursuit of total gloom. His lips moved continually, softly speaking what seemed to be the only words had the aspiration to impart.
              “She didn’t love me.”
========================================
              “It all happened so fast... I didn’t know what to do. I... I still don’t know what to do. It happened so fast. They... were going so... so fast,” the elderly woman trembled through streams of tears. A sole policeman took notes, seemingly uninterested. He thanked the woman quickly, then gaited in the direction of the accident, surveying the significant amount of destruction. The vehicle’s front bumper had managed to implode upon itself, and was now nothing but a mangled slab of tinted steel. Glass had shattered in every direction, along with bits and pieces of the automobile that once was. The odor of incinerated flesh drifted seamlessly in the humid air.
              Inside of the misshapen wreck lay the remains of two beings, distorted and barren, lifeless to the utmost extent – a grotesque scene of repose amidst the labor of conflagration. The driver’s hand – a hulking, molten mass of tissue – remained attached to the steering wheel before it, now melted and malformed, as if the cadaver was still clinging to some deceased form of hope, while the passenger, seemingly engaged in its surroundings, lingered forward in its seat, pressing onward against the liquefied upholstery. A second glance was unnecessary, the officer decided, on the verge of nausea due to the pungent fumes emanating from the putrefaction, and he left, returning to his station, ready for a pleasant slumber after a protracted, forgettable day.
========================================
​


----------



## Morkonan

Thanks for that info, Kyle R.!



Kyle R said:


> I thought this was written pretty well—and I don't even know anything about _Doctor Who_: http://www.whofic.com/viewstory.php?sid=2501
> 
> Maybe a _Doctor Who_ fan can tell if the POVs are written in character.



I wouldn't know, either. And, that brings me to a point I've been waiting to make... 



> John Scalzi's novel, _Fuzzy Nation_, is a work of fan fiction. Apparently the writing was good enough to be professionally published and earn him a paycheck. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004OA63YO/?tag=writingforu06-20



An excellent book and an enjoyable read.



> I also posted a link to a Neil Gaiman _Chronicles of Narnia_ fan fiction short earlier in this thread.



Didn't see it, will take a look. But, not necessary for this post, so may post on it later.



> There are tons more, it just takes time to separate the wheat from the chaff.



It's extremely easy to separate the wheat from the chaff. It's _mind-numbingly_ easy.

The "Doctor Who" story? Chaff.

<gasp>

Yes, it's "Chaff." Why is it chaff? It relies far too much on what is "implied" rather than what is written. I relies very heavily on the Reader's previous knowledge of the characters and setting in order to convey much of anything of import. There are a few hints, here and there, and a few attempts to restate certain things to the Reader, like the short description of a "Dalek" and its lack of emotion. But, is that enough for me to cringe at the thought of the "Doctor" and the possibilities that he'd make a "good Dalek?" No. I don't care. I don't really know what a Dalek is, so how can that have as much meaning to me, a Reader unfamiliar with the Characters or Setting? It can't. I don't know anything about the Doctor's relationship with Rose. She could be a vacuum cleaner and it wouldn't mean a thing to me. (Though, it'd be a heck of a lot more interesting than it currently is...) So, when "love" is brought into play, I'm credulous and I yearn to example more "don't care" because that's the only thing entertaining me at that moment...  It is a story being told in someone else's sandbox, with someone else's toys, with little attempt to actually tell a real story.

If the story would be more than Chaff, more than "fanfic", it must be able to stand on its own. I would need a more than just a simple declaration about a Dalek. I would need more than just the Doctor musing on a relationship I know nothing at all about. I would need more than just a mention of the "horror of the Time Wars", I would need... everything. This is a story that is being "told" to me, being force-fed to me, rather than one that is being offered up as an "experience." As harsh as it may sound to a "Dr. Who" fan, it's "chaff."

To a fan of "Dr. Who," that short might be literary gold. But, it's not.... It's only their previous knowledge of all the things that truly matter in a story that gives this short any meaning or import. For them it is enjoyable and I would not deny them that joy! Honestly, I wouldn't and they are free to revel in it with my blessing, if they felt the need for that. But, what would happen if everything was changed? What if the names, places and other proper nouns were changed? What if all the heavy-hitting, emotion-filled, terms, events, and people and places were changed? How would it read, then?

Now, let's talk about a "Fuzzy Nation!" It's a great book and the protagonist is a delightful character! I really enjoyed the whole thing, from cover to cover. But, how can this be possible if I didn't read the original source material? Obviously, that's because it is "wheat." 

Why is it wheat? How can it be "wheat" when the other "fanfic" was "chaff?"

I didn't need to know anything other than what Scalzi actually_wrote _in order to enjoy his story. I didn't need to have read Piper's "Little Fuzzy" to be familiar enough with certain concepts so I could fully enjoy Scalzi's "Fuzzy Nation." In fact, I didn't need anything at all, no knowledge of or concept of Piper's "Little Fuzzy", in order to fully enjoy and comprehend "Fuzzy Nation." That is why it is "wheat." 

Suppose I wrote a "Superman" story. Suppose I build up some drama and then dump a piece of Kryptonite in Supe's lap. Then, suppose I made a big deal about that and stuck in a cliffhanger. Well, without more than that, a Reader unfamiliar with the character of Superman and his backstory is just going to turn around and slap me... _"What? Some stupid magic rock! That's what you're demanding that we be concerned about? This guy can fly or something close to it. He's obviously strong, I guess. Heck, why should some dumb glowing rock stop him from doing anything? You're a hack!"_

Now, suppose I am suitably abashed and I go back and rewrite the story. I now start paying attention to the _needs_ of my Reader. I explain "Superman" and give some of his backstory. I explain or relate the origins of his power and I make a readily identifiable_ causal link_ between Superman's super-powers and the qualities of Kryponite in reducing them. Well, now the Readers are going to be suitably concerned when that dumb rock plops down in Superman's lap, aren't they?

What do we call a story that fails to provide the Reader with what they need to know and need to experience in order to comprehend and be entertained by the story? That's called a "badly-written story" and that's why a great deal of "fanfic" is comprised of badly-written stories.

When we have a story that gives the Reader everything they need in order to comprehend and be entertained by it, we call that a "well written story." That's why most "fanfics" are_ not _well-written stories.  That doesn't mean, however, that a story based upon someone else's characters in someone else's world can't be well-written, comprehensible and entertaining. No, it's quite possible to write such a story. But, you can't write it well if you rely too much on what is _not written._ If a fanfic writer relies on what they didn't write in order to carry their story, I can not see how they could craft a good story - They're not responsible for what most of their story relies upon. Could it entertain someone? Sure, but only those who are privy to knowledge not contained in the actual story.

Thanks for those examples, Kyle, they really hit the nail on the head and, hopefully, get the most meaningful point of all across - What matters in the quality of a story is what the author actually _writes_, not what is _not-written_.


----------



## Nippon Devil

Morkonan said:


> Just a thought:
> 
> You buy a coloring book. It has the outlines of pictures for you to  color. So, you color them. Is that now "art?" Yes, in a way, it is. Are  you now an "artist?" Maybe a little bit, yes. Would anyone hang it in a  gallery? Probably not, but they'd hang it on the refrigerator if they  were your parents. :smile:



Some people get paid very good money to do that actually. But the humor is appreciated. 




shadowwalker said:


> But most fanfic writers do not claim to be 'aspiring artists'.



That is your opinion based on your experience with those sort of writers. That was no my experience. Each and every one I spoke with was either a self proclaimed prodigy or was using fan-fiction as a stepping stone. 

I only clarified because I thought you had misinterpreted what I wrote. I didn't realize you were expressing your own opinion.


----------



## bazz cargo

I like Fan Fiction, I even indulge myself on a rare occasion. Like any other genre it can be well or badly written, it is the writer not the word that counts.


----------



## Kyle R

Morkonan said:


> What do we call a story that fails to provide the Reader with what they need to know and need to experience in order to comprehend and be entertained by the story? That's called a "badly-written story" and that's why a great deal of "fanfic" is comprised of badly-written stories.
> 
> When we have a story that gives the Reader everything they need in order to comprehend and be entertained by it, we call that a "well written story." That's why most "fanfics" are_ not _well-written stories.



I get what you're saying, Mork, and it's a very insightful point!  However, it can also lead to another way of looking at things.

A fan fiction writer knows (and expects) her reader to come to the table with a fully fleshed understanding of the characters and their histories. They are fans, after all. They own the television series. They've read all the books. They wear the tee shirts.

Because of this, we can say fan fiction is imbued with a unique way of projecting vast amounts of characterization and emotions with a few simple mentions. It's literary shorthand. Sleight of hand, even.

With a brief mention of a name and a location, a fan fiction author can create a surge of emotion in the reader, recalling an intense moment in the story universe with just with a few key words, safe in the assumption that the reader already knows what the author is referencing.

If I were writing _Jurassic Park _fan fiction, for example, I could explain:


the process of cloning dinosaurs by extracting DNA from blood in a mosquito's abdomen after being trapped and preserved in amber ever since the late Cretaceous;
an old man's desire for a one-of-a-kind theme park and his failed attempts at creating a cat-sized elephant to be sold as a family pet;
how, during a downpour and a power outage on a remote island, a genetically-created tyrannosaur ate a goat, escaped its paddock, and knocked a jeep over a ledge with Dr. Hammond's grandson inside;
how an archeologist named Dr. Grant had to climb up a tree to rescue the boy, despite his dislike of trees and heights.

Or, I could simply have Dr. Grant recall _that stormy night when Timmy got stuck in that damned tree_.

No further explanation required.

To someone unfamiliar with the story and characters, the prose may seem bewildering because of this type of literary shorthand. I definitely agree with you on that point.

But to someone familiar with the original work? The fan fiction writer can be seen as operating at a high skill level, condensing whole moments of story history into brief mentions and using them to consciously flavor the work. 

Maybe original writers can even benefit and learn from fan fiction writers in this regard! This technique of literary shorthand can certainly be useful when writing about our own unique characters (if an author is writing book #4 in a series, for example, and wants to reference something that happened to their characters in book #2). :encouragement:


----------



## Morkonan

Kyle R said:


> I get what you're saying, Mork, and it's a very insightful point!  However, it can also lead to another way of looking at things.
> 
> A fan fiction writer knows (and expects) her reader to come to the table with a fully fleshed understanding of the characters and their histories. They are fans, after all. They own the television series. They've read all the books. They wear the tee shirts.
> 
> Because of this, we can say fan fiction is imbued with a unique way of projecting vast amounts of characterization and emotions with a few simple mentions. It's literary shorthand. Sleight of hand, even.



A very good analogy.



> With a brief mention of a name and a location, a fan fiction author can create a surge of emotion in the reader, recalling an intense moment in the story universe with just with a few key words, safe in the assumption that the reader already knows what the author is referencing.
> 
> If I were writing _Jurassic Park _fan fiction, for example, I could explain:
> 
> 
> the process of cloning dinosaurs by extracting DNA from blood in a mosquito's abdomen after being trapped and preserved in amber ever since the late Cretaceous;
> an old man's desire for a one-of-a-kind theme park and his failed attempts at creating a cat-sized elephant to be sold as a family pet;
> how, during a downpour and a power outage on a remote island, a genetically-created tyrannosaur ate a goat, escaped its paddock, and knocked a jeep over a ledge with Dr. Hammond's grandson inside;
> how an archeologist named Dr. Grant had to climb up a tree to rescue the boy, despite his dislike of trees and heights.
> 
> Or, I could simply have Dr. Grant recall _that stormy night when Timmy got stuck in that damned tree_.
> 
> No further explanation required.



Why is "no further explanation required?" As you say, it's "literary shorthand." But, doesn't such a use of literary shorthand go too far? How far removed from general fiction writing is this sort of thing? What skills are being ignored and what opportunities are being left behind in order to pursue "fanfic?" We're equating the quality of the piece with the experience of the Readers that require the knowledge of something more than what is actually written by the author. If I write a story about a character from "Moby Dick," is it automatically a good story just because "Moby Dick" was a good story? (Please, no arguments about the quality of "Moby Dick."  )



> To someone unfamiliar with the story and characters, the prose may seem bewildering because of this type of literary shorthand. I definitely agree with you on that point.
> 
> But to someone familiar with the original work? The fan fiction writer can be seen as operating at a high skill level, condensing whole moments of story history into brief mentions and using them to consciously flavor the work.



But, they're not operating at a "high skill level." Someone else's skill got Timmy up in that tree, created the drama and the risk, inserted the dreaded cliffhanger moment and then brought the whole thing crashing down around the Reader's ears... The Jurassic Park fanfic writer is using that to color their story. They're not creating these emotions or events, themselves, but using the experience of fellow Jurassic Park fans in order to prop up the weakest parts of their story and, consequently, the parts of a story that have the greatest significance for any Reader.



> Maybe original writers can even benefit and learn from fan fiction writers in this regard!



No, they can't... At least, not in my opinion they can't.



> ...This technique of literary shorthand can certainly be useful when  writing about our own unique characters (if an author is writing book #4  in a series, for example, and wants to reference something that  happened to their characters in book #2). :encouragement:..



We already do this. In a way, we do it just by writing in order to communicate. You know what I mean, generally, about "communication", right? I accept that shared definition, as it stands. However..

Communication is more about just "words." It's an attempt by one human being to reach out to others, to touch a part of them that is inaccessible, mutually incomprehensible, but requires the most intimate and honest understanding possible between two human beings, a mutual effort that is irresistibly sparked once one person writes down one word and shows it to another. It's an intimate process, not a pantomime of unwritten thoughts, but of a shared creation, something new that is brought to life where nothing existed...

So, if I define "communication" like _that_  , we've got something new, right? Admittedly, it's overwritten, but that was the entire point - I took a mutually acknowledged thing and used it to make something new. I did it at the most basic level - Words. Further, you needed to bring _nothing more_ to the table in order to understand what it was that I wrote other than a working knowledge of English and, perhaps, a little bit of personal ability at interpreting metaphors.

I can't learn how to ride a bike without taking off the training wheels. I can lean how to ride a training-wheel equipped bike, though. But, is that really the same as "riding a bike?" No. Any writer who is already writing on their own, outside of having to rely on the emotions and imagery created by another author, is already doing _more_ than a typical "fanfic" writer.

Note: It's important that I make this distinction - "Fanfic" is what I am talking about in these last two posts. However, "Fan Fiction", something I separate from general "fanfic," is something different. In Fan Fiction, the writer may make use of some conventions, like a Setting or even a Character. But, their story does_ not _rely on anything more than what is written. They may work within a setting, like in a shared-setting project, or they may work with a character, like a serial, but what they do is create their own story, with its own significance, well enough that it doesn't have to rely on outside source material. Their characters evoke experiences from us because of what they wrote, not what they haven't written. Their version of a Setting is unique and interesting because of what they write about it, not because of what someone else has written.  The _further_ removed from the original source material the story is, the more like general "fiction" writing it is. The closer it is to the original source material, the more it relies on outside material for its creative moments, the less like "fiction writing" it becomes.


----------



## Kyle R

Morkonan said:
			
		

> Their characters evoke experiences from us because of what they wrote, not what they haven't written. Their version of a Setting is unique and interesting because of what they write about it, not because of what someone else has written.  The _further_ removed from the original source material the story is, the more like general "fiction" writing it is. The closer it is to the original source material, the more it relies on outside material for its creative moments, the less like "fiction writing" it becomes.


I understand where you're coming from, Mork. I do. Me, though, I'm unconcerned with defining fiction in such ways. My primary concern is to move the reader. Any technique that can help me do so is a good technique, in my opinion.

Whether it be through referencing previously established story elements, or through creating my own unique story elements, as long as the reader is emotionally piqued, I will feel my mission has been accomplished. 

If referencing a line from _Romeo and Juliet_ brings an intended tear to the reader's eye, I'll consider the use of that technique a wise choice.

And if a fan fiction writer's reference to TARDIS brings an intended leap of joy to a _Doctor Who_ fan's heart? Then I say to that fan fiction author: Well done! :encouragement:


----------



## hvysmker

Not having ever been particularly impressed with, what is it? Star Drek? I consider Fan Fiction as akin to a bicycle with training wheels.  If it gets a writer started in the craft, I see nothing wrong with it.

There are a number of reasons new writers can start out with Fan Fiction.  You don't have to explain the layout or functions of the spaceship, nor how a phaser works, saving a lot of explanation.  You already know the main characters and how they react to certain situations.  It's largely a matter of putting THEM into YOUR difficult situations and getting them out again.  Later, with experience and better grammar abilities -- not to mention enhanced plotting skills -- a writer can advance into truly original works.

Also, at what point does original writing start and Fan Fiction  end?  I have a series I add to occasionally featuring "Alice in Wonderland" characters in my own adult version of "Wonderland".  In it, I add other characters  of my own imagining. It IS in the public domain, you know?  I wouldn't call it Fan Fiction, though, because of its adult nature.

I say let Fan Fiction proponents do their thing, not that I'd read it.
Charlie


----------



## T.S.Bowman

I suppose I must ask this question at this point....

If I were to take the lyrics of a song, and write a story around them...would that then be considered a piece of fan fiction since I am a fan of the song?


----------



## Morkonan

Kyle R said:


> ...Whether it be through referencing previously established story elements, or through creating my own unique story elements, as long as the reader is emotionally piqued, I will feel my mission has been accomplished. ... Then I say to that fan fiction author: Well done! :encouragement:



That's a good way to look at it. There is value in fan fiction, true. There's also value in "C" movies. I used to get together on the weekend with a bunch of friends and we'd watch the most horrible "B" and "C" movies imaginable. We'd have a big laugh and a good time. It didn't hurt that our funnybones were well-lubricated with alcoholic beverages... So, yes, I have fond memories of "The Toxic Avenger" and "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes." I suppose fanfic and fan fiction fans can have their fun, too. 



T.S.Bowman said:


> I suppose I must ask this question at this point....
> 
> If I were to take the lyrics of a song, and write a story around  them...would that then be considered a piece of fan fiction since I am a  fan of the song?



That's a good question. You're crossing mediums, so there's a point at which you have to ask whether or not your piece so closely resembles its origin that it is "fan fiction" or simply "inspired by" the original work. I think it ultimately depends on how much of your "story" draws from your own creation and how much draws directly from what you've chosen to emulate/transpose/whatever into the new medium. Also, I think "fan fiction" has some purposeful deviation within it. So, for instance, the movies "The Lord of the Rings" series, do not deviate significantly from the books. They're an effort to transport the story into another medium. In that respect, they're not "fan fiction", but are simply "inspired by" Tokien's work.


----------



## Schrody

T.S.Bowman said:


> I suppose I must ask this question at this point....
> 
> If I were to take the lyrics of a song, and write a story around them...would that then be considered a piece of fan fiction since I am a fan of the song?



Actually, I'm writing a novel about the song (the title and main theme is the same), but I asked the band, and they're okay with it. Maybe you should contact the artist? Of course, that depends on how much would you take from the song, would there be any lyrics or just your interpretation?


----------



## Tyler Danann

50 Shades of Whatever has a lot to answer for! LOL

I got started with a small story that could be considered 'fan-fic' in the mad-max sense but it wasn't off vampires or kink though, I just used worlds colliding with a fantasy twist. 
I took it from there and slowly built and built and built... 

The good thing about fan-fiction is it can *sometimes* take a genre in a powerful new direction. Also it can get the budding writers out there started on the long road of crafting themselves into being actual writers, not just someone posting on a website(s) and forums.


----------



## T.S.Bowman

Schrody said:


> Actually, I'm writing a novel about the song (the title and main theme is the same), but I asked the band, and they're okay with it. Maybe you should contact the artist? Of course, that depends on how much would you take from the song, would there be any lyrics or just your interpretation?



Tough to do since the singer of the song died a few years ago.

From the idea I had, it would be more of the _story _of the song itself, not so much the lyrics.

The actions of the MC would be _based _on the lyrics of the song. But I wouldn't be using the lyrics themselves.

By the way, I asked that question only because the idea occurred to me after hearing the song. I have no idea if I will actually write the story.


----------



## Schrody

T.S.Bowman said:


> Tough to do since the singer of the song died a few years ago.
> 
> From the idea I had, it would be more of the _story _of the song itself, not so much the lyrics.
> 
> The actions of the MC would be _based _on the lyrics of the song. But I wouldn't be using the lyrics themselves.
> 
> By the way, I asked that question only because the idea occurred to me after hearing the song. I have no idea if I will actually write the story.



Anyway, I don't think you should have any problems, if lyrics won't be included  I had a few ideas when hearing particular song.


----------



## T.S.Bowman

Well...legal problems really weren't going to be the issue.

I was more wondering whether or not I would have to change my stance on fan fiction for writing the story based on the song.


----------



## Schrody

T.S.Bowman said:


> Well...legal problems really weren't going to be the issue.
> 
> I was more wondering whether or not I would have to change my stance on fan fiction for writing the story based on the song.



Nah, I think it's okay. It's a song, there's no characterization. I think it's - like Mork said - inspired by.


----------



## MzSnowleopard

I think this belong here

Proud owner of The RPG Organization- a play-by-post RPG site with both original works and Fan Fiction!

Some days there's no new posts, some times there's only a few active writers but that's okay but I'm too dense to know when to give up. This site is one of my babies and I refuse to give up on it. It probably won't die until I do. Though ti would be nice to see someone take up the mantle.


----------



## JJBuchholz

As someone who had spent fifteen years writing extensive fan fiction, I can say that it is interesting, and can be fun to read (if you know about the subject matter already). I wrote over twenty adventures in fan fiction related to the original Transformers series (1980's) and the movie in 1986. My fan fiction takes a much darker tone, with character deaths that are quite detailed, grittier good guys and nastier bad guys. There is even a mini-arc with a war between Cybertron and a world called Atzeria Prime.

It really shouldn't matter what you write, as long as the passion is there methinks.

-JJB


----------



## Blackstone

Like most people I have no truck with FanFiction.

The main issue for me (as with so much of life, I fear) is why people want to write it to begin with. Since for me the purpose of fiction writing begins and ends in the ability to concoct a story, characters and world from scratch it is one of those things I am afraid I will always be suspicious of.

At the risk of being controversial - and I truly don't wish to upset any FanFictioners out there - I suspect its enduring popularity has less to do with a widespread love of writing and more to do with our culture of celebrity. It seems to me that most fanfiction is inspired by TV shows and movies (less so with books actually, except with the really big ones like Harry Potter) that are already extremely popular and well-loved. My theory is that when a somebody chooses to write a knock-off of a big franchise like Star Wars or whatever instead of coming up with their own thing it is at least partly because they know it will have a ready-made audience of obsessives and therefore readers (they may well be one of those themselves) and often times ones who will care less about the quality of the writing or story and more about the fact that it's set in that universe. So its very much a cashing-in-on-what's-fashionable thing rather than about passion for craft.


----------



## MzSnowleopard

Blackstone- the simple answer is 'because it's fun.'


----------



## JJBuchholz

MzSnowleopard said:


> Blackstone- the simple answer is 'because it's fun.'



Indeed it is! In my Transformers fan fiction series, I created an entirely new TF protagonist to interact with the already established characters, as well as taking some of said characters and exploring them further as well. I never expected it to go as far as it did, but I have no regrets with the series. I enjoyed writing each and every one of them, as I enjoy writing my other works as well. If I didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't do it. Passion drives my creativity.....

-JJB


----------



## MzSnowleopard

I agree wholeheartedly, my story started out as one thing, another writer joined in and while there was some competition from her- we still had fun. And gained a few new original characters and some major plot bunnies from this one. Good memories.

AI + teenage cheerleader attitude + Mazda Miata = Trouble with a ton of sass


----------



## Blackstone

MzSnowleopard said:


> Blackstone- the simple answer is 'because it's fun.'



Good!

I suppose my follow up question is what does it offer that composing an original work does not?

Assuming my theory about taking advantage of an established brand and associated lore motivated by a passionate fan base that is already there is not accurate for at least some FF writers, what motivates you as a relatively committed and honed writer to create that at the expense of something that is wholly yours? And I use the term 'expense' only because we all know how time consuming writing is.

Again, not trying to upset anybody whatsoever. One of the reasons I joined this forum was to find out about different people's motivations. Looking for more insight than just "I enjoy it" if possible...


----------



## MzSnowleopard

Let me answer with the reason why I have my RPG site. They are one in the same.
The method to the madness is a means to, at least for me, avoid or work through writers block.

I have my own original works. I’m working on solo stories, trilogies, and one large series based on characters who are, in one way or another, connected through the same company.

Sometimes I get hit with writer's block, other times I just need to shift gears and let a story germinate. In order to do this, I need to power down my focus. So, I found a solution- play-by-post RPG and fan-fiction. Some people actually chuckle at this but it does work, at least for me.

Having stories that are simply for fun helps to relax the mind, keep the imagination active, and allows the major works- like the actual novels to gel in the back of the mind since my focus is on a different story.

Fan-fiction is free, sure, you can submit it to a publisher for consideration to be part of the written story line - like the Stargate books. There's a lot of them these days. The thing is, once you do this that specific story is no longer Fan Fic, it becomes a book for profit.


----------



## Cephus

There's nothing wrong with it, I've run a fan-fiction group in the past and it can be a blast.  Of course, it will never be more than a hobby because you can't publish any of it without permission, unless you go the Fifty Shades of Gray route and change all the names in your Twilight fan fiction, but the less said about that, the better.


----------



## Annoying kid

If you keep it low effort, and short, it can make sense to write Fanfiction as a guilty pleasure.


----------



## Bayview

Seanan McGuire is an award-winning NYT bestselling author who got her start in fanfic and writes about it here: https://twitter.com/seananmcguire/status/979103025749901312

I'm never sure about all the gender stuff, but I don't think you can argue with her results!


----------



## Bloggsworth

Not a lot, there isn't much mileage in stories about decorative oriental methods of facial cooling...


----------



## Cannonfury

I like some fan fiction; wrestling mainly..but I do not read it a lot.


----------



## LMWriting

I think fanfiction is a nice way to let my brain take a break from writing original works. It's also a good platform to build up a fan base and keep links to your original work handy in case people are interested in seeing what you can do when the world is your own.


----------



## JJBuchholz

Eighteen years ago, my foray into fan fiction helped me refine my writing style, and made me take a long hard look into existing characters, and how I could further define them and explore their backgrounds. 

-JJB


----------



## Rojack79

As someone who's written a fanfiction novel I can say without a small sense pride that it has helped me considerably to refine my writing. 75,000 words of crappie fanfiction it may be but I loved every word of it. Now i feel comfortable enough to share my own original works with the great people here.


----------



## nadiiiiiiii

Bishop said:


> Fan fiction is fan fiction. I dislike people who attempt to use it as a stepping stone to "original" works, a-la 50 Shades of Useless, but writers who genuinely enjoy writing fan fiction and acknowledge it as so have no problem in my book. My only irk are the ones who change the names and call it something new.



Actually have to agree with you! Fan fiction is fine as long as they still aknowledge that it actually is fan fiction and not try to just chage things up by different names and then still kind of keep the same story.


----------



## JJBuchholz

Rojack79 said:


> As someone who's written a fanfiction novel I can say without a small sense pride that it has helped me considerably to refine my writing. 75,000 words of crappie fanfiction it may be but I loved every word of it. Now i feel comfortable enough to share my own original works with the great people here.



Yes! You wrote it, you loved it, and it helped you move onto other writing projects! What more could you ask for? Fan fiction is still creative writing, and I'm always all for it.

-JJB


----------



## ironpony

I'm actually surprised a lot of people consider 50 Shades of Grey to be a fanfiction of twilight.  I haven't read the books, but saw some parts of the movies, and it seems the only two things in common are a naive, inexperienced young woman, who falls for a guy who is thought of to be a controlling jerk type.

I mean lots of stories have this type of couple.


----------



## Cephus

ironpony said:


> I'm actually surprised a lot of people consider 50 Shades of Grey to be a fanfiction of twilight.  I haven't read the books, but saw some parts of the movies, and it seems the only two things in common are a naive, inexperienced young woman, who falls for a guy who is thought of to be a controlling jerk type.
> 
> I mean lots of stories have this type of couple.



It *IS* Twilight fanfic.  That's how it was originally written.  Then the author got an offer to publish it so she had to strip out all of the Twilight elements and make it something pseudo-original.  That's the actual history of 50 Shades.


----------



## ironpony

Cephus said:


> It *IS* Twilight fanfic.  That's how it was originally written.  Then the author got an offer to publish it so she had to strip out all of the Twilight elements and make it something pseudo-original.  That's the actual history of 50 Shades.



Oh okay.  Well people shouldn't consider 50 Shades to be a fanfic then if all of the Twilight elements are removed then.


----------



## Cephus

ironpony said:


> Oh okay.  Well people shouldn't consider 50 Shades to be a fanfic then if all of the Twilight elements are removed then.



Even though that's where it started.  It also doesn't change the fact that 50 Shades sucks.


----------

