# The cost of self publishing



## Flint (Mar 8, 2016)

I was having a quick read of this article, and $6000 seems a bit high to me. Any thoughts from the self publishers in here?

http://www.theguardian.com/money/us...8/self-publish-novel-how-to-amazon?CMP=twt_gu


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## PrinzeCharming (Mar 8, 2016)

Thanks for sharing this! Although I can agree with some points, I rolled my eyes over the estimated cover art price. I know I purchased mine a year ago, but it was nothing close to that. I even had two completely different covers offered. Shop around, talk to the publishers, and let them know where you stand. Don't ever settle for something too high or steep for your budget. There's always room to negotiate. They want the sale, you want the professional service. It's a win-win.


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## Flint (Mar 8, 2016)

That's interesting. Yeah, I've known people who have done their own artwork or got it much cheaper.

Also, paying hundreds of dollars for reviews seems a little bit strange to me as well, almost like bribery lol.

(I don't actually have anything novel-sized to publish at the moment, but I'm interested in exploring self-publishing at some point.)


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## PrinzeCharming (Mar 8, 2016)

Flint said:


> That's interesting. Yeah, I've known people who have done their own artwork or got it much cheaper.



Yes, if the author is blessed with multiple talents, more kudos to them! A few authors pursue this path with little to no success. 



Flint said:


> Also, paying hundreds of dollars for reviews seems a little bit strange to me as well, almost like bribery lol.



Yes, you're absolutely right. I understand time is money, but there are many readers willing to take a free book for a free review. It also depends on the quality of the review. The cost for five stars is more than a package deal. Although five out of five stars is ideal, in any egotistical sense, but it's not reality. I would rather read a book with three or four stars with genuine feedback. 



Flint said:


> (I don't actually have anything novel-sized to publish at the moment, but I'm interested in exploring self-publishing at some point.)




It's never too late to start! I started off early. I dove into a company that mailed out (free of charge) two books to showcase their printing quality. I have yet to read the books, but now I am comfortable to say which matte and binding is preferred.


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## Flint (Mar 8, 2016)

PrinzeCharming said:


> Yes, if the author is blessed with multiple talents, more kudos to them! A few authors pursue this path with little to no success.



Yeah, the guy I know who does his own covers just happens to be talented. I would imagine he is in the minority. I wouldn't try and do my own cover.



PrinzeCharming said:


> Yes, you're absolutely right. I understand time is money, but there are many readers willing to take a free book for a free review. It also depends on the quality of the review. The cost for five stars is more than a package deal. Although five out of five stars is ideal, in any egotistical sense, but it's not reality. I would rather read a book with three or four stars with genuine feedback.



Yeah, I would have to agree with this.


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## LeeC (Mar 8, 2016)

Wow! One more reason I'm doing it all myself for better or worse, which doesn't mean WF didn't play a big role ;-) 

Of course I'm talking about indie publishing an ebook, with the idea that if the book is validated by enough "first readers" a traditional (maybe a misnomer anymore) publisher may take an interest. Seems a more practical approach to me.

As one paradigm of publishing hangs on, the new paradigm of self-publishing is attracting all sorts of "paid" help. I can understand where such help is needed, especially in areas like editing, but it also brings out all sorts of "fast buck" parasites as with any shift. When I was initially looking into traditional publishing, I came across a good deal of fee based help playing on others dreams.

Beyond the valuable help of WF, and final editing, I don't see much value in this fee based sector though. With apps like Sigil it takes very little expertise to create an ePub book, or even going at it with a word processing app to produce a .doc file for a distributor to convert to a wide variety of ebook formats. Places like Smashwords even have a style guide for preparing a manuscript. 

As to cover design, programs like PS and Gimp together with a little artistic talent make for some very nice covers. Where one wants a little help they might turn to friends. I've done a few free for friends, not that I'm looking to do more than those for friends. There are also cover designers that will work with an author for as little as a hundred or two dollars. 

As far as an ISBN, distributors like Smashwords provide one free. Or course, a paper version of a book would need another ISBN. 

Editing, as I said, is a necessary expense. One might also think about proofreading help. 

I'll be damned if I'll pay for reviews, preferring to work hard myself in making potential first readers aware, and if they validate the book's worth the reviews will follow. The same goes for paying for marketing and the likes of "retweeting" services. 

Of course if one is in a hurry to become rich and famous, any affordable investment one hopes to recoup could be considered. I'm in no hurry and not interested in fame and fortune, so to me the longer road is preferable. I also believe it will take my book a long time to catch on, if ever, so I believe my approach is more practicable.


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## H.Brown (Mar 8, 2016)

Hello, this article and all your responses are very illuminating. As I did not know much in the way of publishing until now, when I am gettiNg serious about my writing. However you have drawn some of the dangers to the fore front which I find very helpful. I was considering the self-publishing route myself with my talented other half doing my book cover, but had been toying with the more traditional publishing way, so thanks guys for opening my eyes to some of the self publishing pitfalls. A very informative article.


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## Jack of all trades (Mar 8, 2016)

Flint said:


> I was having a quick read of this article, and $6000 seems a bit high to me. Any thoughts from the self publishers in here?
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/money/us...8/self-publish-novel-how-to-amazon?CMP=twt_gu




It really depends on the individual choices made, and how high you set your standards.

For example, do you find an artist who designs a cover specifically for your book, reading it first to really get the feel, or buy a stock cover, or do it yourself? Depending on your skills, the amount if time you are willing to invest, etc, the results can be very different.

I look at it this way, plan to spend $6000 and try to come in under budget.


By the way, ISBNs are owned by the publisher. So if it is important to you to be listed as the publisher, you need to buy your own from the legitimate seller for your country. Some companies or lawyers "resell" ISBNs, but you are not actually listed as publisher. Same for the free ones. If it doesn't matter to you who is listed aspublisher, then you can go with the reduced cost or free ones.


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## LeeC (Mar 8, 2016)

Jack of all trades said:


> So if it is important to you to be listed as the publisher, you need to buy your own from the legitimate seller for your country. Some companies or lawyers "resell" ISBNs, but you are not actually listed as publisher. Same for the free ones. If it doesn't matter to you who is listed aspublisher, then you can go with the reduced cost or free ones.


That's a bit misleading. An ISBN is simply a unique 13-digit numerical identifier that allows distributors and retailers to track and manage your book. They no more convey and protect copyright or any form of publisher rights, or any current association, than the UPC on an apple. All an ISBN is is a UPC for your book in a specific format. 

Your statement also implies that an author might care who is coded as a publisher within their IBSN,  and to make sure they should *buy* their own from the legitimate seller in their country. Why in the heck would an author care?

For example, those using Smashwords as a distributor and that need an ISBN (some retail outlets like B&N and Scribd don't require an ISBN, but most do) can obtain a *free* ISBN from Smashwords. Smashwords obtains large blocks of ISBNs to be able to assign, so by the ISBN coding conventions they are identified as the publisher. However, this does not make Smashwords the publisher (the indie author is), but rather indicates the author was supplied the ISBN by Smashwords to insure as wide a distribution of the book as possible. 

So it seems to me that you're implying that an author might adverse/ashamed/whatever to anyone ferreting out (for some strange reason) who the author worked with in getting their book into the retail marketplace, and that is why I see your statement as misleading.


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## Jack of all trades (Mar 8, 2016)

It is not my intention to make anyone feel ashamed. I'm not sure how that came across. I am simply providing information so that those reading can make informed decisions. 

Do you, Lee, or anyone else for that matter, object to decisions being made based on information?


For those who may want to know more about ISBNs, here are some frequently asked questions.  

http://www.isbn.org/faqs_general_questions


By the way, I believe the UPC does specify the type of apple, so putting one for Red Delicious on a Granny Smith would be misleading.


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## TKent (Mar 8, 2016)

Lee, 

I don't think Jack was implying that an author should be ashamed or adverse. He was trying to explain that there are reasons that self-published author should consider when deciding whether to go with a free ISBN from Smashwords, Createspace, Amazon, etc. vs. buying their own block and being listed in all of the databases as the publisher. Here is a great article with additional information: http://www.thebookdesigner.com/2010/11/isbn-101-for-self-publishers/



LeeC said:


> That's a bit misleading. An ISBN is simply a unique 13-digit numerical identifier that allows distributors and retailers to track and manage your book. They no more convey and protect copyright or any form of publisher rights, or any current association, than the UPC on an apple. All an ISBN is is a UPC for your book in a specific format.
> 
> Your statement also implies that an author might care who is coded as a publisher within their IBSN,  and to make sure they should *buy* their own from the legitimate seller in their country. Why in the heck would an author care?
> 
> ...


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## KellInkston (Mar 8, 2016)

Hi, I'm self published and I'd like to lay my thoughts in.

It's my opinion that the majority of this article is quite correct in necessity, but pulls up some seriously hogwash numbers. Let me break down my personal costs step by step.

ISBN: If you publish via smashwords or amazon, these are free. All an ISBN is, in essence, is a way for publishers and distributors to locate your book in a network. It does not protect anything (though if you've written a work it is recognized as already copyrighted by the supreme court,) so you don't actually need to buy one. The only reason why you might need to buy your own ISBN would be the rare situation that you'd need to publish multiple editions of the same book and keep them available at the same time. So unless you plan on having two different versions of the same book available, I'd skip this cost altogether.

Editing: A super large tag, totally out of this world. Only professional developmental editors would charge that much, and generally these folks are only hired by publishers or very, very well off self-published authors. You can find some surprisingly competent editors on fiver.com, for example, who will mull through a manuscript for $5 per 1,000 words, for example. Don't forget beta-reading, self-editing (which one definitely should consider regardless of the amount of other people helping with the MS) or just publishing it as is and asking the readers to email you should they find any errors (not really the best idea, but it's worked for people in the past). A good (not full, not great) novel edit shouldn't break the $400 to 1k range in my experience. Again, I'm not discrediting more expensive editors, on the contrary, they have some great things to teach if one is willing to listen, but for your first few books, I'd focus on delivering a quality story and developing the craft more than ensuring your book is a perfectionist work of editing art. The choice, ultimately is yours, but those are my thoughts on it.

Cover art: Are you kidding? $750 for a cover? This isn't johnny atomic (they're great, yes, but so, so pricey) we're talking about. Even an little research would push this number out. goonwrite.com for instance sells unique, literally one of a kind covers for just under $50 each. Take a peek and I think you'll be surprised by the quality of a lot of them.

Reviews: Please don't. Paying for reviews works few and far between unless you're really willing to shell out the dough (And in many cases, can sick amazon's dogs on you). I've enjoyed plenty of reviews on my short story _Paper_ simply by adding an end-note asking for an honest review. It's been out about a year from last month, and I'm sitting on about 27 reviews from that method alone. It's a free way to get legitimate reviewer feedback, so I can't encourage it enough.

Review copies: I actually don't have any experience with this, so I can't really weigh in much- sorry.

Anyway, my total comes to around $100 per one of my short stories, and around $3-500 on a full novel. There's more ways to cut down on costs (like getting a beta read for free on this very site) but to condense the post I'll leave 'em out.


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## LeeC (Mar 8, 2016)

Jack of all trades said:


> It is not my intention to make anyone feel ashamed. I'm not sure how that came across. I am simply providing information so that those reading can make informed decisions.
> 
> Do you, Lee, or anyone else for that matter, object to decisions being made based on information?
> 
> ...


It's my understanding that informed decisions are based on objective information as much as possible, and that's why I clarified the facts so others might not be misled. 

Paying full price for an individual ISBN is at best unnecessary out-of-pocket expense based on lack of understanding, and at worst an ego thing, unless an author has no other options. That's the simple fact relative to this thread. 

Neither do I see where putting the wrong UPC tag on an apple has any relevance to the fact that essentially ISBNs are for books what UPCs are to produce.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

And thank you KellInkston for your reasoned and informative response


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## KellInkston (Mar 8, 2016)

> And thank you KellInkston for your reasoned and informative response



You're quite welcome. And if anyone has any specific questions I'd be pleased as a plum to answer them.


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## Jack of all trades (Mar 8, 2016)

LeeC said:


> It's my understanding that informed decisions are based on objective information as much as possible, and that's why I clarified the facts so others might not be misled.
> 
> Paying full price for an individual ISBN is at best unnecessary out-of-pocket expense based on lack of understanding, and at worst an ego thing, unless an author has no other options. That's the simple fact relative to this thread.
> 
> Neither do I see where putting the wrong UPC tag on an apple has any relevance to the fact that essentially ISBNs are for books what UPCs are to produce.



You are the one who first brought up the UPC tags.

Please tell me exactly what is incorrect in my first post. Or what shamed you or others. It seems to me that you chose to go with a free ISBN and feel that EVERYONE MUST do the same. I think we all should do what we individually think is best. No pressure. No shame.

You seem to be trying to shame me for even CONSIDERING that an individually owned ISBN might be good for some. Won't work. I stand behind my statement. Some authors may want to be recognized as the publisher and owner of the ISBN.


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## Jack of all trades (Mar 8, 2016)

KellInkston said:


> You're quite welcome. And if anyone has any specific questions I'd be pleased as a plum to answer them.



Please explain this in further detail.



> The only reason why you might need to buy your own ISBN would be the rare situation that you'd need to publish multiple editions of the same book and keep them available at the same time.


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## LeeC (Mar 8, 2016)

Jack of all trades said:


> You are the one who first brought up the UPC tags.


I simply stated the ISBNs are essentially to books what UPCs are to any other product. The only difference being that they're used to identify a specific format of a specific book (product) for accountability across distribution channels and within any organizations dealing with the book. 



Jack of all trades said:


> Please tell me exactly what is incorrect in my first post. Or what shamed you or others. It seems to me that you chose to go with a free ISBN and feel that EVERYONE MUST do the same. I think we all should do what we individually think is best. No pressure. No shame.


Well, since you asked, for one you stated that "ISBNs are owned by the publisher" which is misleading because they only "own" them between the time they purchase one or more from the originating authority and assign them to an authors book, and it's not just publishers that obtain them from the originating authority. The so-called publisher code within the ISBN simply reflects who originally obtained an ISBN from the originating authority, as a means for them keeping their own records straight. It has no relevance to the author, unless one reads something into the coding that's not intended. So why would it be important enough to the author to pay for when they can obtain an ISBN for free? I noted the true nature of ISBNs so others wouldn't get the impression that there's more to ISBNs than there actually is.

Actually, if you take a look at the article TKent noted there are more detailed considerations discussed. (Thanks TK)



Jack of all trades said:


> You seem to be trying to shame me for even CONSIDERING that an individually owned ISBN might be good for some. Won't work. I stand behind my statement. Some authors may want to be recognized as the publisher and owner of the ISBN.


Not at all, I respect your right to believe anything you wish to. Being that many others will read the thread though, I thought a clearer explanation of what ISBNs really are, especially relative to the costs discussion of this thread, was appropriate. 



Now, I believe we've gone off on a tangent far enough relative to this thread, and we shouldn't clutter it up any more. We've both stated our thoughts, and as debating isn't allowed we should let it go at that. Have a nice evening.


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## KellInkston (Mar 8, 2016)

Jack of all trades said:


> Please explain this in further detail.



Gladly. In the case that an author would like to make specific modifications to different manuscripts for the same book (ie. If you want a different end note at the end of your physical copy than your ebook copy, or perhaps you want a "SFW" version along with an "Uncensored" version,) having separate ISBNS for this would be both practical and provide an ease of use. This is to keep publishers from getting requests for different manuscripts mixed up and what have you. This is the main _practical_ reason for having them, but an indie author can also choose to use their own isbns to be listed as the technical publisher of a book- while the advantages to being listed as the actual publisher (generally you'll be recognized as the publisher of the book regardless if you own the ISBN or not) it can be helpful for branding if you wanted to be known under the guise of, say, a full publishing house, rather than a singular author.

Does that answer your question?


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## Jack of all trades (Mar 9, 2016)

KellInkston said:


> Gladly. In the case that an author would like to make specific modifications to different manuscripts for the same book (ie. If you want a different end note at the end of your physical copy than your ebook copy, or perhaps you want a "SFW" version along with an "Uncensored" version,) having separate ISBNS for this would be both practical and provide an ease of use. This is to keep publishers from getting requests for different manuscripts mixed up and what have you. This is the main _practical_ reason for having them, but an indie author can also choose to use their own isbns to be listed as the technical publisher of a book- while the advantages to being listed as the actual publisher (generally you'll be recognized as the publisher of the book regardless if you own the ISBN or not) it can be helpful for branding if you wanted to be known under the guise of, say, a full publishing house, rather than a singular author.
> 
> Does that answer your question?



That sounds different than what you said first, but I don't want to be accused of debating so I'll move on. 

The only thing I have left to add is that an ebook and a paperback need separate ISBNs, as do hard backs and paper backs, or audio books and hard backs. I think you get the point -- each version, even with identical content, needs its own ISBN.

And being known as both publisher and author is why I pointed out that Smashwords free ISBN still lists Smashwords as publisher. I just think everyone should be aware so as to make an informed decision. Period.


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## Flint (Mar 9, 2016)

LeeC said:


> Wow! One more reason I'm doing it all myself for better or worse, which doesn't mean WF didn't play a big role ;-)
> 
> Of course I'm talking about indie publishing an ebook, with the idea that if the book is validated by enough "first readers" a traditional (maybe a misnomer anymore) publisher may take an interest. Seems a more practical approach to me.
> 
> ...



Very interesting to read your perspective. I think you made a lot of valid points.

With respect to your book: I think that if you could secure your fan base and got someone with experience like Cran/Aquilo to give it a proper look (in terms of copy-editing/proofreading), I don't see why a publisher/agent wouldn't be interested in it. I think it's good/solid enough, personally. 

As for all these other services outside of WF and editing/proofreading, I'm also a little suspicious/wary. If I ever got to the point where I had produced a book for self publishing, I'd have to make some more investigations.


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## Flint (Mar 9, 2016)

KellInkston said:


> Hi, I'm self published and I'd like to lay my thoughts in.
> 
> It's my opinion that the majority of this article is quite correct in necessity, but pulls up some seriously hogwash numbers. Let me break down my personal costs step by step.
> 
> ...



Great post. Very interesting to read. 

I agreed with pretty much all of it. I would be interested in hearing a bit about your experiences with Fiver and cheap editors, if it's not too personal. I'm just curious what constitutes a good (but not full or great) novel edit.


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## TKent (Mar 9, 2016)

I think a primary factor in making all of these decisions is what the author is trying to achieve. 

1. Do I go with Amazon/CreateSpace/SmashWords ISBNS? I asked myself this question and did research and decided that I did want to tackle publishing like a professional publisher would. I want to get books into bookstores. You are going to have a really hard time doing that if you don't set yourself up as an indie publisher and get your own ISBNs. That's just a fact. Even then it will be hard unless you have lots of time to market your books or better yet, give a percentage away to a real distributor such as IPG, although they aren't going to take a self-published book with a noticeably amateur cover and without really good editing. They want their sales force selling books that have a the best chance of actually making it into the bookstores and selling lots of books. Booksellers don't want self-published books in most cases. But if you are not worried about getting print books into bookstores, then free ISBNS are just fine.

2. Do I pay for a professional cover and if so, how much? Unless you are a graphic designer and have skills in that area, then making your own cover is probably going to make your books stick out as self-published like a sore thumb. I personally steer clear of a book with an amateur cover because usually the editing is on par with the cover, and it's painful to me personally to read a poorly edited book. But if this doesn't matter to you, or if you are only targeting friends and family, who cares. That's all you need. As to how much to pay, I stick with the same approach I do to buying consumer products. I go with the lowest cost/brand I can live with and be satisfied. There are many really talented and affordable designers out there. I found an illustrator for a book from Fiverr.com, and he is so incredibly talented. Kell's sources are great ones if you do your homework! Look at their portfolio and reviews. That said, one of my favorite book designers is M.S. Corley. Some day I want to be able to afford one of his book covers! He is in the very high range of cost for book cover design but he is amazing and can illustrate, make custom fonts, etc.

3. Do I get professional editing? As a reader, all I can say is please get professional editing  Buying your own ISBNs will allow a bookseller to easily find out who the publisher of a book is. Don't let them be looking that up so they can AVOID your books! But again, Kell has pointed out great ways to get this done on a budget. If you can afford it, get an editor to go over it for the big stuff, structure, continuity, etc. Then get a professional copyedit, then get friends and family and every beta reader you have to proof it, and get it proofed from someone (or ones) from Fiverr or other places. I guarantee you, there will still be errors!! So get as many out as you can. Your readers deserve that if they are paying for the book. Let them focus on the story, and not the SPaG issues and typos.

4. NetGalley - NetGalley is not a place to pay for reviews. You can drop $399 to have your book there and not a single review is guaranteed. You could get 100 reviews and they could all be 1 star. What NetGalley is, is a place for publishers to release ARCs to reviewers. It is utilized by big presses, small presses, and some self-publishers as well. There are bloggers, readers, professional publication reviewers who are constantly downloading books they want to review. I have a book there, and one of the best things about it, is you can have a conversation with a reviewer and find out why they gave it the rating they did. It is quite useful if you are trying to learn what readers think about your book. I would say if you don't do 1,2,3 above, you probably shouldn't waste your money on NetGalley. There are too many free books that are professionally published for readers to spend too much time reading self-pubbed that haven't gone through the rigors above.

5. Paid reviews in general - Again, this just depends. There are very good reasons for a small press, trying to get a book into book stores, to pay for a professional review from a place like Kirkus that is well-respected in the industry. It is a tool for getting a bookseller or reader interested in your book. It is a jungle out there, and you are fighting for your book to be considered. This is just a basic marketing technique and if you have a marketing budget and a really quality book (1,2,3 above on top of the basic and most important requirement: a good, well-written story), then this can be a very good investment. A Kirkus Star can start a conversation with a bookseller you might not have had otherwise. But even if a paid review would be beneficial, start by sending out ARC copies to Kirkus, Publishers Weekly, Foreword Reviews, NYT, Washington Post, etc. You may get picked up for free. There are a lot of books out there though, so if you do the footwork and that doesn't happen, then you are either going to pay, or not get an industry review. 

My point with all of this is that there is no approach that is right for everyone. If you are tackling your self-publishing as a serious business, you are probably going to do it entirely different than someone who is just getting their feet wet, or than someone who is somewhere in between. 

So read the articles, ask questions, and choose the path that is right for you!


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## KellInkston (Mar 9, 2016)

Flint said:


> I'm just curious what constitutes a good (but not full or great) novel edit.



Gladly!

If an explanation is needed, it is in my experience that the more expensive the editing job, the further from "spelling and grammar check" we go in favor of "developmental" editing. I'm not the end all authority on editing cost in this matter (I'm sure there are people on the forum much better equipped to handle the question outside my personal experience) but I'll do my best.
Generally the cheapest kinds of editing are the easiest, requiring little more than a pair of eyes and someone who's read enough books to spot errors in S&G. This moves up in cost to things like flow, chapter impressions, spotting contradictions, etc. At the tip top we have developmental editing which is the editor taking the work as a whole and judging its qualities as a full experience, and then recommending in-depth suggestions. I'd shell out the dough to get one of these at least once; they're greatly educational and quite humbling when you've landed a good editor.

Anyway, onto fiverr.

Fiverr is, as its always been, a gigantic hit or miss show. Everything's hawked and peddled there, from editors that will do an okay job, to assassins who will do one stab and leave. Generally the highest rated sellers are the ones you want to shoot for, though fiver reviews can also be bought for sellers to seem better than they are, regrettably. It's a very open platform and you'll be working with people from all over the world. It's part caution and just part trial and error until you find an editor that really works for you. I've gotten my hands on maybe four editors on fiverr, and all of them delivered different qualities of work- some nailed the job, others left an embarrassing amount of errors for me to pick up myself. That said, use caution and take them by a case by case basis. Plenty of different editing styles are offered on fiverr, so you should find exactly what you're looking for at an affordable price, but you won't know until you pay up.

Hope that helps. Did that answer your question?


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## Flint (Mar 9, 2016)

TKent said:


> So read the articles, ask questions, and choose the path that is right for you!



Another great post, IMO. Fascinating reading. I think this is a very good conclusion/approach, personally. I agree that each path will be unique to the individual and their aims.


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## Flint (Mar 9, 2016)

KellInkston said:


> Gladly!
> 
> If an explanation is needed, it is in my experience that the more expensive the editing job, the further from "spelling and grammar check" we go in favor of "developmental" editing. I'm not the end all authority on editing cost in this matter (I'm sure there are people on the forum much better equipped to handle the question outside my personal experience) but I'll do my best.
> Generally the cheapest kinds of editing are the easiest, requiring little more than a pair of eyes and someone who's read enough books to spot errors in S&G. This moves up in cost to things like flow, chapter impressions, spotting contradictions, etc. At the tip top we have developmental editing which is the editor taking the work as a whole and judging its qualities as a full experience, and then recommending in-depth suggestions. I'd shell out the dough to get one of these at least once; they're greatly educational and quite humbling when you've landed a good editor.



Aha! So you were talking about depth rather than quality. I'm with you now.



KellInkston said:


> Anyway, onto fiverr.
> 
> Fiverr is, as its always been, a gigantic hit or miss show. Everything's hawked and peddled there, from editors that will do an okay job, to assassins who will do one stab and leave. Generally the highest rated sellers are the ones you want to shoot for, though fiver reviews can also be bought for sellers to seem better than they are, regrettably. It's a very open platform and you'll be working with people from all over the world. It's part caution and just part trial and error until you find an editor that really works for you. I've gotten my hands on maybe four editors on fiverr, and all of them delivered different qualities of work- some nailed the job, others left an embarrassing amount of errors for me to pick up myself. That said, use caution and take them by a case by case basis. Plenty of different editing styles are offered on fiverr, so you should find exactly what you're looking for at an affordable price, but you won't know until you pay up.
> 
> Hope that helps. Did that answer your question?



Yeah, that was all very helpful and interesting to read. Thanks. 

Yeah, Fiverr sounds like I would've imagined it to be from what I've seen of it and heard people talking about it. I think that's great if you've managed to find someone from there who works for you within your budget.


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## Aquilo (Mar 10, 2016)

$6,000? That's... excessive. I've not self-published, but I run with a lot who have.

ISBNs... I'm going to leave that to those who know what they're doing there. I don't have anything to do with mine as they're done through the publisher.

On cover art: Kell's right that you get what you pay for. This here is Jay Aheer. I've known her from when she first started digital design, and now she works with a number of publishers. Her cover art work is stunning. Her ebook packages, (including ebook cover, facebook banner, 3D artwork) cost $90 (£62), with her paperback packages (including ebook cover, banner, 3D Artwork and paperback wrap) cost $130 (£90). 

I've used Jay with some exclusive rights to a piece of artwork that I can use on merchandise (you need exclusives for that), and also to use the artwork on a canvas banner for a roll up banner I need for events, which I paid £90. I think going with an artist you trust and who know can deliver is worth the money.

 Jay's prices are pretty standard for my genre.

On editors: again, you get what you pay for. The question I'd be asking isn't 'how much', but "are the books you've edited before, selling?" And the only way to judge is that is by looking at the editor's back list and doing some footwork: check the testimonials, go over to Amazon and check out the reviews. Are there many complaints about poor editing? Look inside the novel -- do you see any basic proofing issues? No book is perfect, but if you're seeing mistake after mistake, then it's a warning light. Type their name into google with the word 'complaints' and see what comes up. Mostly -- make use of the sample, and try out different content editors who handle your genre. Most content editors specialize within a particular genre, so make sure you work with an editor who specializes in your genre: don't ask a plumber to look at your electrics, sort of thing.

How much would I pay an editor if I was self-pubbing? Whatever price they're asking, so long as I know they're the best one for the job. I respect their time and expertise.  But I'd need to know they work in my genre and have had success in my genre. As for copy editors and proofs... lord... yes.

On reviews... I wouldn't pay for reviews, whether they ARCs or for after the release. It's hard getting noticed, damn hard, so you want to make sure you get noticed for the right reasons. Friends don't review for me, and I banned family members from even looking at the review stops, so paying for reviews is just a 'hell no' extension of that. And there's something really special knowing you can look back and say your work's earned those reviews from strangers.


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## Flint (Mar 10, 2016)

Thanks, helpful as always. 

Yeah, I thought Jay was very good and very reasonably priced.



Aquilo said:


> How much would I pay an editor if I was self-pubbing? Whatever price they're asking, so long as I know they're the best one for the job. I respect their time and expertise.  But I'd need to know they work in my genre and have had success in my genre. As for copy editors and proofs... lord... yes.



Yeah, I may be biased, but I would agree with this.


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## TKent (Mar 13, 2016)

Stumbled across this article today and thought it had a lot of relevance to this conversation. It is from 2013, but still very current. Compares an authors economic experience with a big 5 publisher to his projections if he had self-published.

http://priceonomics.com/can-authors-make-money-selling-books/


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## Aquilo (Mar 14, 2016)

TKent said:


> Stumbled across this article today and thought it had a lot of relevance to this conversation. It is from 2013, but still very current. Compares an authors economic experience with a big 5 publisher to his projections if he had self-published.
> 
> http://priceonomics.com/can-authors-make-money-selling-books/



It's gutting in a way, isn't it? That an author loses so much by going trade.

I'm doing my 1st self-pubbed in a few months, and it'll be interesting to see how/if sales differ to my trade.


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## Flint (Mar 14, 2016)

Woah, nice going! You decided to take the plunge!


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## Aquilo (Mar 15, 2016)

Flint said:


> Woah, nice going! You decided to take the plunge!



Lol, all except formatting. I can't format, but I know a guy who knows guy...


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## Flint (Mar 15, 2016)

That's interesting. There doesn't seem to be any mention in the article about formatting. What exactly are we talking about here? Conversion of Word document to Kindle/.mobi format or some kind of format for paperback? Is this an expensive service?


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## Jack of all trades (Mar 29, 2016)

Flint said:


> That's interesting. There doesn't seem to be any mention in the article about formatting. What exactly are we talking about here? Conversion of Word document to Kindle/.mobi format or some kind of format for paperback? Is this an expensive service?



When I uploaded a book to Kindle several years ago, Kindle had a conversion program. In order for the conversion program to work well (give a good output), the document had to meet certain criteria. If you have any ability formatting in Word or WordPad, you should be alright. If you want a clickable table of contents, knowledge of html would be helpful, then you can format the book in html for "better" conversion. 

There are people who format for fees. I'm not sure what the going rate is these days.


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## Aquilo (Mar 29, 2016)

I think formatting with Smashwords and Amazon start at $40 dollars and can go up, depending on file size. 

I've had a look at the Smashword style guide, and I managed to do the basics: ToC, chapter format etc in word. But it's one of those things: I know I can, but I don't think I should. I'm no formater, just as I'm no cover designer. In the end, I'd pay for both to get it looking the best it could be.


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## Jack of all trades (Mar 29, 2016)

Aquilo said:


> I think formatting with Smashwords and Amazon start at $40 dollars and can go up, depending on file size.
> 
> I've had a look at the Smashword style guide, and I managed to do the basics: ToC, chapter format etc in word. But it's one of those things: I know I can, but I don't think I should. I'm no formater, just as I'm no cover designer. In the end, I'd pay for both to get it looking the best it could be.



I'm a do-it-yourself type. If there's going to be an error, I'd prefer it be mine. And then I can correct it as quickly as I like.


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## Aquilo (Mar 30, 2016)

Jack of all trades said:


> I'm a do-it-yourself type. If there's going to be an error, I'd prefer it be mine. And then I can correct it as quickly as I like.



Ah, see, that's the difference: If. I know I will, Jack.


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## Flint (Mar 30, 2016)

Aquilo said:


> I think formatting with Smashwords and Amazon start at $40 dollars and can go up, depending on file size.
> 
> I've had a look at the Smashword style guide, and I managed to do the basics: ToC, chapter format etc in word. But it's one of those things: I know I can, but I don't think I should. I'm no formater, just as I'm no cover designer. In the end, I'd pay for both to get it looking the best it could be.



Very interesting. I had no idea it would cost that much. 

I saw a proofreader talking about offering other services such as formatting. I wasn't sure about the idea, but, seeing as you're considering having it done, maybe there is a market for some people.

What is there extra apart from the things you mention? What else do you have to worry about with fiction formatting? I can understand dealing with things like mathematics textbooks could be a real nightmare.


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## Aquilo (Mar 30, 2016)

TK and others might be best to answer this one, Flint, but I'm not sure how formatting will differ for an ebook that then goes paperback.

I think there's definitely a market for it, but it's getting your name out there and known to authors. There's a mass of formatters on Smashwords etc, but most authors will go by recommendations from within their own genre. So it's getting your name known.


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## Flint (Mar 30, 2016)

Yeah, I guess that would be the way forward. 

Thinking about it, I wonder how much of it could be outsourced to cheap countries like things like typesetting are. Maybe sticking to things that are harder to outsource like editing would be a better idea. :-k


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## LeeC (Mar 30, 2016)

I don't know much about formatting for print books, but I've done so for ebooks several times (myself and a few friends). For my own book I chose to work directly with Sigil from the .rtf file I wrote in. A fairly simple process of copy and paste, break out chapters, generate a TOC, and include a cover. When done, I ran the .ePub file through both Sigil's and IDPF's validators finding no errors. 

While one can submit an ePub directly to Smashwords, there is the issue that they don't translate such into other specialized formats. I found that some of the retail outlets they distributed to did though, and wasn't thrilled with the results. So I set about also constructing a properly styled .doc file of the book for Smashwords to generate the other specialized formats from. I guess it helped in some cases, but didn't notice much improvement at Scribd. Also I checked the ePub Smashwords generated from the .doc file, and even though they deemed it acceptable I wasn't thrilled. They ended up using the ePub I created, and the .doc file to generate the other specialized formats. I didn't see any options for me creating the other formats directly. 

As far as what such work might cost I've no clue, and I think one would have to be very careful who they chose. But, if I were to do such on a fee basis for someone else (which I don't have the time nor any intention of doing), I'd base the fee on a guesstimate of the effort involved. With a clean .rtf file and no oddball formatting involved, creating an ePub of say a 60K word manuscript at the pace I work might take a little over a day, and properly formatting a .doc file maybe a little over two days at least. The base hourly rate I'd use to come up with a fee ahead of time would depend on how greedy I am, and how much padding I thought appropriate for unforeseen issues. 

So, what's a reasonable cost depends on what the author might expect, and the quality of workmanship, as with any such transaction we negotiate in life. I've seen too many parasites in life to seek just anyone's help ;-) One friend that came to me had hired someone else first, but wasn't happy with the results and had no recourse.


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## Terry D (Mar 30, 2016)

There are definite differences between formatting for a print book compared to an e-version. Headers and footers for page numbering, adjusting margins for proper white-space around the margins, consistent placement of chapter titles, etc. It's not difficult, but it is time consuming.


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## Flint (Mar 31, 2016)

Very interesting to read all of this. 



LeeC said:


> While one can submit an ePub directly to Smashwords, there is the issue that they don't translate such into other specialized formats. I found that some of the retail outlets they distributed to did though, and wasn't thrilled with the results. So I set about also constructing a properly styled .doc file of the book for Smashwords to generate the other specialized formats from. I guess it helped in some cases, but didn't notice much improvement at Scribd. Also I checked the ePub Smashwords generated from the .doc file, and even though they deemed it acceptable I wasn't thrilled. They ended up using the ePub I created, and the .doc file to generate the other specialized formats. I didn't see any options for me creating the other formats directly.



That's unfortunate. I was wondering how you'd got on. I just checked Scribd and can't really see any major difference. I guess there might be value added by somebody in these kind of situations.


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## Jack of all trades (Mar 31, 2016)

Ebooks do not have blank pages, less front matter, and usually condense the copyright information onto the title page.

Print books are more aesthetic. The copyright info has it's own page, which is the backside of the page before (putting it on the left page). Many things "belong" traditionally on the right page, so there are blank left pages. Also there is usually more front matter. 

Because of the differences, there needs to be two documents, one for ebooks and one for print. It can be a pain to update both, so wait until you are completely done with edits before making the second version.


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## LeeC (Mar 31, 2016)

Terry D said:


> There are definite differences between formatting for a print book compared to an e-version. Headers and footers for page numbering, adjusting margins for proper white-space around the margins, consistent placement of chapter titles, etc. It's not difficult, but it is time consuming.


Thank you Terry, I know you have the experience. I thought I'd read somewhere a few years back that there are some special considerations for the cover image. Something about needing to be oversized(?) to allow for bleed in the printing. Is that still the case, and if so couldn't one just add a white or black frame?


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## Jack of all trades (Apr 1, 2016)

Maybe this will help explain the cover size.

https://www.createspace.com/Products/Book/CoverPDF.jsp


The goal is to make sure nothing important gets trimmed off. So a border would make complicate things, in my opinion.


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## RikWriter (Apr 1, 2016)

Those numbers are crazy.  I think the total I've spent on my five self-published SF novels is about $20, and I've made in the tens of thousands from them.


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## Terry D (Apr 1, 2016)

LeeC said:


> Thank you Terry, I know you have the experience. I thought I'd read somewhere a few years back that there are some special considerations for the cover image. Something about needing to be oversized(?) to allow for bleed in the printing. Is that still the case, and if so couldn't one just add a white or black frame?



Yes a frame can work. That's what I did with my book _Chase_.


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## sigmadog (Apr 1, 2016)

As a graphic designer/illustrator, I would like to add that there is no good reason to spend big money on art for your book, unless you want truly customized, professional artwork created solely for your story. There are lots of cheap options out there which offer generic artwork that is professional looking and works fine in many cases. Nothing wrong with that.

That's not to say that a custom design and/or illustration created by a professional who has taken the time to understand your story while crafting a totally custom look is worthless. I firmly believe that has great value (though I admit I'm a bit biased).

By way of example, here is link to some fake book covers I did for fun last year. Each feature custom illustration and design. If these were real projects, I would have asked for $1000 each because each illustration took about 20 hours or so (more or less), with another hour for the design and type layout. That's what my custom art costs. (NOTE: I'm not trying to advertising my services - I don't need any more work right now - I'm simply giving examples). 

Of course, there are also lots of baby designers/illustrators out there looking to get started, who would no doubt charge much less for custom art. Deals can be made.

I guess my point is that there is a wide variety of artwork options out there, so it should be easy to find one that fits your budget and goals. Rather than devaluing the importance of the artwork ("X is way too much!") look instead at what you are trying to achieve and set your budget based on that.


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## denmark423 (May 3, 2016)

Most of the publisher have a little difference in terms of pricing. But some of them has a bit more advantage when publishing. I think it was last year when a friend of mine published her book with bookventure, I think. And I see that it was successfull and she was able to get royalties with it.


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## JustRob (May 4, 2016)

sigmadog said:


> By way of example, here is link to some fake book covers I did for fun last year.



Very amusing. There's an apposite observation on the cover of _The Towers of Anthala _there which reads "It's a story made of words strung together in sentences!" Yes, the way that we present our work and wrap it up is relevant but ultimately it's the text that makes it what it is. The packaging shouldn't be an obstacle that might deter potential readers but equally it shouldn't make promises that the text can't fulfil. So far as cover art is concerned I think modest and adequate suffices.

As an example, look at the cover art for the various paperback editions of _Lady Chatterley's Lover _across the years starting with the very modest 1960 Penguin edition. It was a story made of words strung together in sentences. That was both the appeal and the problem in its time. What did later artwork really add?


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## denmark423 (May 17, 2016)

As a publishing author, you can't expect directly to that successful especially if it's your first time unless your book is really that good or well marketed. Self-Publishing is really good for authors like you because it gives you a lot of benefits like great royalties. But there are some publishers that give reasonable prices for specifics services or in publishing your book. You will have the feeling of satisfaction after you self-publish.


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## kpierce (Dec 12, 2016)

I believe that publishers can help you if you decide to self-publish your book and would adjust depending on your budget.


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## Gavrushka (Dec 13, 2016)

I think the biggest and most serious potential cost of self-publication is a fledgling author's reputation. - I recognise the immense excitement and enthusiasm of completing a novel but, with the benefit of experience, I can say that first creation is unlikely to be well received by the paying public. 

The biggest 'cost' of self-publication is one few authors are prepared to meet, and that is the years of hard work writing words that, rather than set the world on fire, are more likely to burn the eyeballs out of a readers head. If they pay that before self-publication, I don't think they'll go far wrong. Be patient!


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## RikWriter (Dec 16, 2016)

Gavrushka said:


> I think the biggest and most serious potential cost of self-publication is a fledgling author's reputation. - I recognise the immense excitement and enthusiasm of completing a novel but, with the benefit of experience, I can say that first creation is unlikely to be well received by the paying public.
> 
> The biggest 'cost' of self-publication is one few authors are prepared to meet, and that is the years of hard work writing words that, rather than set the world on fire, are more likely to burn the eyeballs out of a readers head. If they pay that before self-publication, I don't think they'll go far wrong. Be patient!




Well, most people's first novel should be thrown directly in the circular file unless they've had a lot of experience writing shorter fiction first.  But you're making a lot of assumptions in that post, among them that the person self-publishing would put their first attempt out there.  Some do, but many don't.


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## JustRob (Dec 16, 2016)

RikWriter said:


> Well, most people's first novel should be thrown directly in the circular file unless they've had a lot of experience writing shorter fiction first. But you're making a lot of assumptions in that post, among them that the person self-publishing would put their first attempt out there. Some do, but many don't.



When you talk about the "circular file" I assume that you don't mean that enormous file where people put all their junk so that it circulates, i.e. the Internet, although apparently some people can't tell the difference. Looking at the balance sheet for my novel I imagine that it's hardly representative.

Previous writing experience: One short story hastily written in half a day two years earlier.

Research: Ummm, what's that? Something that you do later to work out why you thought it made sense originally perhaps.

Artwork: I told my computer what I wanted and it drew it for me. 

Publication: Posted on my own Internet domain created for quite another purpose previously.

Promotion: I've mentioned it to a few people in passing.

Outgo: Practically none.

Income: Not expecting any.

Future prospects as a writer: Never had any ambitions; still don't.

Future plans: Maybe write about my experiences as an unintentional writer.

Personally I think the first novel may deserve to be thrown away when a second makes its appearance but not before, so mine's going to be around for quite a while, I suspect. It is after all the best thing that I have ever written and may ever write. The artwork was a bit of fun, spin-off from my CGI hobby, and I think one would have to be very confident to fork out for someone else to produce anything more worthwhile. Do people really judge books by their covers when the old adage advises them not to?


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## Gavrushka (Dec 16, 2016)

RikWriter said:


> Well, most people's first novel should be thrown directly in the circular file unless they've had a lot of experience writing shorter fiction first.  But you're making a lot of assumptions in that post, among them that the person self-publishing would put their first attempt out there.  Some do, but many don't.



Ah, they're personal observations rather than assumptions. Those observations are made from the experience of the countless self-published books I've read (or attempted to read.) I'm not interested in whether it's the self-pubbed author's first or fiftieth novel, I'm only interested in what I've received in exchange for my money.

So, no assumptions, just burned fingers and a lot of disappointment. -BUT I will keep buying, and I'll keep on commenting.


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## JustRob (Dec 27, 2016)

Today I've encountered an interesting side-effect of self-publishing. It's called editorial control. 

I tried drafting up an article as a submission to the magazine _Paranormal Review _but there was a problem. The magazine stated that the submission guidelines are on their website, but I couldn't find them so I sent a message to the website administrator. In the meantime I drafted up an article of around 4500 words. Just as I finished that I received a reply from the administrator, which was a prompt response at this time of year. The website had been redesigned and the relevant link had been omitted. Well, it can happen to anyone (can't it people, even here maybe?) My witty angel said that the Society for Psychical Research, whose website it is, no doubt assume that we are all psychic and don't need links on websites to find things. Where would I be without her material to work with? Anyway, they sent me a copy of the guidelines and ... I'm now reviewing my approach.

I think I'll post the article on my own website just as it is and write a letter to the magazine mentioning it. They might even publish that. That way I retain full editorial control, don't have to spell words the wrong way or punctuate to meet the house style and can make it the length that suits me rather than the limited number of paper pages in their publication. It may even make my website more intelligible than it's been so far, which would be nice.

Of course I could always post it on WF first to get a reaction, but perhaps I'm too self-opinionated to do that. We'll see.

Don't just assess the cost of self-publishing but also the benefit. It's called freedom.


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## DruidPeter (Dec 27, 2016)

This post has been deleted by the user.


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## JustRob (Dec 30, 2016)

Well, I've just this morning encountered an example of a publisher publishing a book which doesn't do justice to the writer's novel, in my opinion as a reader.

I acquired an E-book copy of _The Sanctus Trilogy _by Simon Toyne from our county library. The book starts with a lengthy chunk of autobiography written by the author in the first person but entitled "Foreword". Personally I found this so boring that it put me off reading the first novel itself after only its first page when I finally got to it. Actually scrolling past an index to 147 solely numbered chapters in between on my little pocket E-reader didn't help my mood either. It was like drinking entirely the wrong aperitif before a meal and ruining one's palate. I'll have to return to the story when memories of the author's life and preference for short chapters have faded.

On reflection I realised that it must have been the publisher who decided to preface the trilogy with the author's autobiography and this is possibly why they called it a foreword despite the author's first person style used. Well, I didn't realise that even a reader has to read the instruction manual on reading books properly before attempting to do so. Evidently I should have been intelligent enough to understand the full implications of that title instead of jumping to the conclusion that since the contents were written by the author he had intended them to appear and be read where they were, so ruining the initial experience for me. It doesn't matter who was to blame anyway. The fact that I may never find the opportunity or inclination to continue reading now may have lost the book a reader, which is the bottom line. If a publisher ever presented my trilogy in such a thoughtless way I would be irate. Better it not be written at all if that is its likely fate.

P.S.
How much does it really cost just to tell stories in writing? Isn't that all that the reader wants, the stories? The rest is just hairdresser's "product" or dandruff, depending on your overheads.


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