# Quitting sucks.



## Tiamat (Jul 29, 2013)

About three weeks ago, I decided to go a diet.  This diet consists of a whole bunch of vegetables, the occasional whole grain something-or-other, chicken or fish, and fruit.  And I exercise.  Cardio, strength training, the whole nine yards.  Three weeks later, I'm exquisitely tired of everything I allow myself to eat, and apart from swimming, I get zero joy from the exercise.  Honestly, the next person that tells me I'll learn to love the burn might lose an extremity or two.  

Oh, and I'm down about ten pounds, which is awesome, but really, I didn't start this post to celebrate.  I can do the diet.  It's monotonous, but it's doable.  Here's the rub: I quit smoking four days ago, too.  For anyone that's ever considered combining the two for a giant lifestyle overhaul, let me just say this:

Don't do it.

Not at all once, anyways.  Get one thing under control before you start phasing out the other.  I can't eat anything good--even my morning coffee is unenjoyable, because stevia + skim milk = watery vomit in a cup--and I can't even smoke a cigarette to make the disgusting coffee go down easier.  

I may very well be wanted for murder by the end of this week.  In fact, I'd wager that the only reason I don't have any blood on my hands yet is because I can't decide which I'd rather kill for: bacon or a smoke.

That is all.


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## Lewdog (Jul 29, 2013)

If you kill a pig you can kill two birds with one stone!


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## shadowwalker (Jul 30, 2013)

You need a different cookbook. I'm not overly fond of fish, but I've found there are very few recipes that I used to use beef in that chicken doesn't work just as well. And I love making up different kinds of salads - raw veggies are great snacks. If you haven't yet, check out macrobiotic recipes (sounds like you're on a similar diet). But yeah, grab the smokes. One step at a time.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Jul 30, 2013)

I quit smoking something like ten years ago now--the first three days are the hardest, so you're through with those, you're gonna be fine. One of the best things I ever did, really. I always think of the day I realized how much smokers really effin' stink. Not in a nice tobacco way, but in a gross, acrid, ashtray way that no perfume or deoderant can truly mask. For almost ten years, I'd stunk without realizing it, and I finally could be certain that, having taken the usual measures, I smelled okay.

Other bonuses:
All that cardio gets easier when you're not fouling up your lungs.
You won't get sick as often (with colds etc.) and you'll get better sooner.
Food will taste better when your tongue isn't stupefied with smoke.
If you go to the doctor with a problem, they won't immediately tell you to quit smoking.
You won't spend 5+ dollars a day on something that doesn't make you feel all that awesome.

Good luck, hope this helps.


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## Tiamat (Jul 30, 2013)

I'd heard that the first three days are the worst.  For me, the first day sucked the most.  Now it's getting more manageable.  



> Other bonuses:
> All that cardio gets easier when you're not fouling up your lungs.
> You won't get sick as often (with colds etc.) and you'll get better sooner.
> Food will taste better when your tongue isn't stupefied with smoke.
> ...


All very excellent points--especially the doctor one.  Thank you!


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## Trilby (Jul 30, 2013)

Most people say that when you quit smoking your appetite increases (substituting comfort foods for cigarettes) there by you gain weight. So it may be a good idea to master one then the other.

I won't touch skimmed milk or low-fat/diet/sugar-free products - I've read too much about them on the internet (If they take something out of a product, they have to replace it with something else -quite often man-made)


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## escorial (Jul 30, 2013)

Dieting an packing in the ciggs...you don't do things by halves , do yeah.


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## Myers (Jul 30, 2013)

As if you need more advice. Don't think in terms of dieting. That automatically translates into denial. Think about changing to a better, healthier way of eating. And it's not something you need to overhaul all at once. But ideally, you end up eating whole, non-processed foods, vegetables, fruits, whole grains and meat in moderation. Go organic as much as can afford to, although if you cut out the processed, prepared foods, it can balance out. But you should never have to feel hungry. I agree with Shadowalker, go on line and look for recipes. Healthy food can and should taste good. I'm not a vegan, but a lot of vegan recipes are really delicious, filling and good for you. Good luck. Eating well can really change your life for the better.


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## shadowwalker (Jul 30, 2013)

lasm said:


> Food will taste better when your tongue isn't stupefied with smoke.



Just a little derail - I think that's a bit of fallacy, since taste is mostly influenced by the nose, not the tongue. That's why one can't tell the difference between a lemon and an apple if they cover their nose (remember those experiments in high school?). I've never noticed any deficiency (in fact, I've always been able to notice subtle tastes in food that non-smokers don't until I point it out). People say after years of smoking their taste buds are mush, but in fact it's due to age - of the olfactory system.

Back to your regular programming...


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## Myers (Jul 30, 2013)

I've had this discussion before with smokers, and I have seen articles citing studies that show smoking does have an effect on your sense of smell. One was on livestrong.com. I'd look it up, but I'm on my phone. Maybe I can dig it up later.


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## Gumby (Jul 30, 2013)

Wow! You really picked two biggies to manage at once. I can't speak to the smoking as I've never had that habit, but I do know how hard managing your diet can be. I've found that eating, for me, is really all about laying down new habits and whatever I eat, is what I will ultimately crave. I found good and healthy things that I like, such as nuts, and those are my 'snacks'. I allowed myself to pig out on them, at first, but eventually, you will naturally eat less and less of them on your own.  I know nuts are high in calories and fats (good for you fats) but they are also an appetite killer and hey, that's a good thing when you're thinking about tearing into a twinkie.


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## PiP (Jul 30, 2013)

Good luck... I'm meant to be on the anti-inflammatory diet and I could eat someone alive I'm that tetchy! 

I can't imagine the trauma of giving up smoking as well! Fair play to you!

Congrats on losing ten pounds!


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## Sam (Jul 30, 2013)

I'd imagine part of the problem is that temptations surround you on all sides. You walk out the door, and there are five Pizza Huts, three McDonalds, and two Burger Kings within three blocks of you. There are vendors on every street. Supermarkets around every corner. Advertisements for junk food on every billboard. That's the worst part of dieting. No one is aware that their binges are affecting you.

I've never smoked, so I can't imagine what it would be like to quit while on a diet. From what I've heard, smoking kills your appetite. People who stop smoking normally compensate by eating more, but you can't do that. Talk about a double-edged sword!

I hope you stick at it. Try to find someone as near to your goals as possible and use each other for motivation. That's why people hire trainers. 

Good luck, Steph.


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## dale (Jul 30, 2013)

if you've made it 4 days, don't start back. the worst is already over and it just gets easier from here on out. 
i know you don't want to start all over and go through those 1st 2 days again later on down the road.


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## Jamie (Jul 30, 2013)

Hi Tiamat,

I smoked for 18 years until March this year. I had some sort of panic attack which came out of nowhere, and because I didn't yet know that was all it was I decided it was something to do with how unhealthy I was. I immediately stopped smoking. And when I say "immediately" I mean just that. I just stopped. I think the slight scare was enough for me and I haven't had a single cigarette since. Oddly, I've only ever had 2 or 3 cravings in the entire time since then (some 4 months now) and I've not been tempted in the slightest to smoke again.

I think the reason I've found it so easy is because of that initial scare though, and for the first 4-5 days I was scared to light up. By the time I'd seen a doctor I'd already gone almost a week, so even finding out that I was just overworked and exhausted didn't become an excuse to start again, because I truly felt that if I could go 4-5 days easy enough then I could carry on, and so I did. So don't feel bad if you're finding it hard. Sometimes we THINK we want to give up but secretly we don't, and really really wanting to is most of the battle. I smoked like a chimney at times; 30 or 40 a day on occasion, and yet here I am completely smoke free. You can do it too, you really can, but you have to truly WANT to do it, and you'll only know that it's really what you want when you start kicking its butt with ease day to day.

I'm also on a new diet! And I've pretty much made that decision based on the extra health benefits of not smoking now. I wanted to be even fitter and stronger, so I've changed up what I'm eating day to day. And you're right - it's not hard, it's just super boring. BUT it doesn't have to be. The very best thing you can do - and this is what's helped me - is to work out what calories you need, cut them by a few hundred a day, and eat sensibly. Don't go head first into a hardcore diet you can't stick to or find so mind-numbingly boring that you'll just jib it at some point. Just cut down on a few things instead (I cut out 'white' products, soft drinks, full fat milk, fried foods at first) and record what you eat in an online planner so you can see how you're doing. If you're just being sensible, cutting calores, AND doing your cardio day to day then you'll lose weight, or fat, just the same. It doesn't have to be as horrible as some make out, and you don't have to restrict every tiny thing. In fact, giving yourself a small treat at the end of a good week is more productive than punishing yourself and being miserable.

I don't envy you doing both at the same time. It's hard work. I hope some of the things I've said here help you get through it a little easier, and good luck!


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## shadowwalker (Jul 30, 2013)

Jamie said:


> Sometimes we THINK we want to give up but secretly we don't, and really really wanting to is most of the battle. I smoked like a chimney at times; 30 or 40 a day on occasion, and yet here I am completely smoke free. You can do it too, you really can, but you have to truly WANT to do it, and you'll only know that it's really what you want when you start kicking its butt with ease day to day.



That's the secret to quitting. My father told me decades ago I wouldn't quit until I really wanted to (he'd quit many years prior), and it's true. I've tried many times only because everyone kept telling me I should, and I went back to it. I've been smoking for almost 50 years, and see no reason to stop (quitting would probably kill me now! :-D).


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## WechtleinUns (Jul 30, 2013)

It looks like you have a good grasp on what needs to be done, and are sticking to your plans. I'm glad that you're going through with something that you want to do for yourself. Regarding both cigarettes and a large change in diet, you're definitely right about feeling miserable for a while. There are a lot of chemical changes going on inside your body.

But you're starting to feel a little better already, yes? Good, good. Get plenty of sleep and drink plenty of water. The sleep will quicken your metabolism in additional to making you feel better, and water helps things along more quickly.

I'm rooting for you, Tiamat.


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## Sam (Jul 30, 2013)

shadowwalker said:


> That's the secret to quitting. My father told me decades ago I wouldn't quit until I really wanted to (he'd quit many years prior), and it's true. I've tried many times only because everyone kept telling me I should, and I went back to it. I've been smoking for almost 50 years, and see no reason to stop (quitting would probably kill me now! :-D).



Quitting is easy. It's staying quit that's the hard part.


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## Jamie (Jul 30, 2013)

shadowwalker said:


> That's the secret to quitting. My father told me decades ago I wouldn't quit until I really wanted to (he'd quit many years prior), and it's true. I've tried many times only because everyone kept telling me I should, and I went back to it. I've been smoking for almost 50 years, and see no reason to stop (quitting would probably kill me now! :-D).



I often think to myself, "when I'm much older I'll probably just start again, I quite enjoyed it", hahaha. But right now I have no intention of starting again. I feel much much better for stopping.


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## Cran (Jul 30, 2013)

Tiamat said:
			
		

> even my morning coffee is unenjoyable, because stevia + skim milk =  watery vomit in a cup--and I can't even smoke a cigarette to make the  disgusting coffee go down easier.


Even if you could, the cigarette wouldn't help with that, apart from reducing the urge to throw the full cup at something. I know this from experience - everyone (even my beloved Dunluchyn) told me to do the same: stevia and skim milk in my morning coffee - blech. I will drink extra water during the day; I will drink tea instead of coffee during the day; but ...
*
no one messes with my morning coffee!*

If I can't have my strong coffee with real milk and (now) one sugar in my wake-up cuppa, the day isn't worth knowing.


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## Olly Buckle (Jul 30, 2013)

> You won't spend 5+ dollars a day on something that doesn't make you feel all that awesome.


Actually when I quit smoking I realised it hadn't made me feel good at all, it just satisfied the addiction and made me feel normal. Now I am not addicted any more I feel okay all the time. Now if you want to feel awesome ...


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## Trilby (Jul 30, 2013)

Think Fat-Free Milk is Healthy? 6 Secrets You Don’t Know About Skim | Butter Believer

^^ reading stuff like this is why I won't touch skimmed milk - what really annoys me now is, you can't get whole milk for your tea or coffee in any of the restaurants or fast food places now, I feel so strong about it I have on a number of occasions went and bought a pint of whole milk and used my own milk in restaurants.


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## Myers (Jul 30, 2013)

I drink my coffee black, but I put raw honey in my espresso instead of sugar. It has about as many calories, but raw honey is actually good for you, while processed white sugar has negative nutritional value. When I make a latte, I use organic soy milk. It tastes slightly different, but it's just as good. I know I'm a little obsessive. A little milk and sugar won't kill you.


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## Gumby (Jul 30, 2013)

My son bought one of those e-cigs to use for quitting the real ones. He says they are pretty good and I know you can get different flavors.


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## Tiamat (Jul 30, 2013)

Wow, I love it when people root for me! Thanks, everyone.  



			
				shadowwalker said:
			
		

> My father told me decades ago I wouldn't quit until I really wanted to


I absolutely agree with this.  My biggest problem with the whole "quitting" thing is that I truly enjoy the heck out of smoking.  (Ironic, since I was vehemently against it until about five years ago when I started.)  But I also hate dropping $30 a week on a complete waste of money.  The quitting thing came about because last week, I stomped my foot and said, "That's it!  I ain't spending any more money on these!"  Well, that combined with a desire to no longer smell like a chimney.



			
				Trilby said:
			
		

> Think Fat-Free Milk is Healthy? 6 Secrets You Don’t Know About Skim | Butter Believer
> 
> ^^ reading stuff like this is why I won't touch skimmed milk - what  really annoys me now is, you can't get whole milk for your tea or coffee  in any of the restaurants or fast food places now, I feel so strong  about it I have on a number of occasions went and bought a pint of whole  milk and used my own milk in restaurants.


I knew I didn't want to read that.  But, alas, I did.  See, I used to _hate_ skim milk.  Then I moved in with somebody that refused to drink any other kind, so I forced myself to like it.  Now, apparently I'm gonna go buy whole milk.

Although, as Cran said, "No one messes with my morning coffee!"  I've axed the skim milk, and decided to indulge in a tablespoon of cream.  Little treats, I've found, are what keep me from killing people.

Here's something curious I've discovered though.  Every day before I go to work, I stop at the gas station and buy a bottle of water.  I had a chat with one of our sales reps today and he told me that most bottled water has a ph value so low that it can actually damage the enamel on your teeth.  Now, I know from dealing with fish tanks that ph of our city tap water is 7.6, so out of curiosity, I grabbed my test kit and measured out 5 ml of my bottled water.  Wanna know what it was?  3.7.  So, in a single day, I've discovered that not only is my bottled water apparently bad for me, but so is skim milk.  :-o



			
				Gumby said:
			
		

> My son bought one of those e-cigs to use for quitting the real ones. He  says they are pretty good and I know you can get different flavors.


That's what I've been using, actually.  The hardest part about the whole thing is the routine.  I get to work early, sit in my car, and have a smoke.  I go on lunch, go outside, and have a smoke.  I finish my dinner, go outside, and have a smoke.  At least the ecig allows me to feel like I'm smoking.  And since I think they taste terrible, weening myself off of them in the future shouldn't be as terrible.


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## Lewdog (Jul 31, 2013)

Maybe switch from coffee to tea with honey used as a sweetener?  Tea is more healthy and still gives you some caffeine.


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## Blade (Jul 31, 2013)

Sam said:


> Quitting is easy. It's staying quit that's the hard part.



This reminds me of a quote from MarkTwain: "Quitting smoking is easy, I have done it many times.":-\"


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## Trilby (Jul 31, 2013)

Tiamat said:


> Here's something curious I've discovered though.  Every day before I go to work, I stop at the gas station and buy a bottle of water.  I had a chat with one of our sales reps today and he told me that most bottled water has a ph value so low that it can actually damage the enamel on your teeth.  Now, I know from dealing with fish tanks that ph of our city tap water is 7.6, so out of curiosity, I grabbed my test kit and measured out 5 ml of my bottled water.  Wanna know what it was?  3.7.  So, in a single day, I've discovered that not only is my bottled water apparently bad for me, but so is skim milk.  :-o



In this hot spell we're having just now, I've been getting out and about and on my travels I have been buying bottled water - from now on I'll take a bottle of tap water with me.


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## Staff Deployment (Jul 31, 2013)

Cran said:


> Even if you could, the cigarette wouldn't help with that, apart from reducing the urge to throw the full cup at something. I know this from experience - everyone (even my beloved Dunluchyn) told me to do the same: stevia and skim milk in my morning coffee - blech. I will drink extra water during the day; I will drink tea instead of coffee during the day; but ...
> *
> no one messes with my morning coffee!*
> 
> If I can't have my strong coffee with real milk and (now) one sugar in my wake-up cuppa, the day isn't worth knowing.





Trilby said:


> Think Fat-Free Milk is Healthy? 6 Secrets You Don’t Know About Skim | Butter Believer
> 
> ^^ reading stuff like this is why I won't touch skimmed milk - what really annoys me now is, you can't get whole milk for your tea or coffee in any of the restaurants or fast food places now, I feel so strong about it I have on a number of occasions went and bought a pint of whole milk and used my own milk in restaurants.





Myers said:


> I drink my coffee black, but I put raw honey in my espresso instead of sugar. It has about as many calories, but raw honey is actually good for you, while processed white sugar has negative nutritional value. When I make a latte, I use organic soy milk. It tastes slightly different, but it's just as good. I know I'm a little obsessive. A little milk and sugar won't kill you.



Where I volunteer (or more accurately, where I need to start volunteering again now that I've fully sorted out school schedule), everyone is a psycho hippy health nut. I will have just finished making myself a boring full-milk flat-white and immediately three or four people will request a Chai tea w/ soy milk + unprocessed sugar + honey + chili. The whole thing usually looks like a frankensteinian conconction and I dare say it tastes like it, judging by their expressions.

Then again that's probably because of my poor barrista skills.


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## Olly Buckle (Jul 31, 2013)

> Here's something curious I've discovered though. Every day before I go to work, I stop at the gas station and buy a bottle of water. I had a chat with one of our sales reps today and he told me that most bottled water has a ph value so low that it can actually damage the enamel on your teeth.


One of my friends used to make water filters, he had a guy from Italy turning up and buying his largest capacity, whole house, filters by the dozen. Turned out he was putting the municipal water supply through them and bottling it. The Italian government testers found the lowest levels of chemicals of any in his water. If you want pure water get an in line filter and save a fortune.


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## Sam (Jul 31, 2013)

Cran said:


> Even if you could, the cigarette wouldn't help with that, apart from reducing the urge to throw the full cup at something. I know this from experience - everyone (even my beloved Dunluchyn) told me to do the same: stevia and skim milk in my morning coffee - blech. I will drink extra water during the day; I will drink tea instead of coffee during the day; but ...
> *
> no one messes with my morning coffee!*
> 
> If I can't have my strong coffee with real milk and (now) one sugar in my wake-up cuppa, the day isn't worth knowing.



Another one of the reasons why I drink tea.


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## Blade (Jul 31, 2013)

shadowwalker said:


> That's the secret to quitting. My father told me decades ago I wouldn't quit until I really wanted to (he'd quit many years prior), and it's true. I've tried many times only because everyone kept telling me I should, and I went back to it. I've been smoking for almost 50 years, and see no reason to stop (quitting would probably kill me now! :-D).



Quitting may not be in the cards but curtailing your consumption may be worth the effort and be non life threatening.

I have a friend who quit 6 months ago. He does not talk about it much but I ran into him on the street recently and he was really stressed just to walk along. Apparently he has emphysema in one lung and finds hot, humid weather almost immobilizes him for shortness of breath.

Once you get to that point there is no turning back and all medicine has to offer is stuff like inhalers or whatever. Good idea not to get that far IMHO. Good diet and exercise are advisable here as well, for what it is worth.


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## Trilby (Jul 31, 2013)

Olly Buckle said:


> One of my friends used to make water filters, he had a guy from Italy turning up and buying his largest capacity, whole house, filters by the dozen. Turned out he was putting the municipal water supply through them and bottling it. The Italian government testers found the lowest levels of chemicals of any in his water. If you want pure water get an in line filter and save a fortune.



There was a TV programme on around Christmas time that stated Tesco's and Asda's cheaper bottled water (17p & 19p per bottle) is filtered tap water, pretty pricey for tap water, I'd say.


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## gmehl (Jul 31, 2013)

Everybody's got diet and coping ideas, but in the end, you've done two really brave things and I just wanted to applaud you for it, encourage you to hang in, be patient with yourself.  Changes in diet are tough, but quitting smoking is agony.  I know.  I did it fifteen times before I finally wanted it bad enough to make it through the first week, the first month, the first year.  And then, I couldn't even believe I ever did such a dumb thing as smoke.  

So I'm cheering you on!

best wishes!


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## Cran (Aug 1, 2013)

I subscribe to the diet called: *No Pain, No Gain. *


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## FantasyLeanne (Aug 1, 2013)

Don't even get me started on diets! 

I personally don't believe in diets, but if it's working, good for you!
I believe in eating all the foods but sweets & other stuff in moderation, counting calories (not obsessively) & moving more, like a workout regime or taking up a sport that you enjoy!
My fiance & I are going to buy some rackets soon so we can play badminton & we're planning on swimming too.
I've tried to do all of this & that that you are suppose to do, but it can be incredibly hard, upsetting & frustrating at times, I'm there at the moment.
For me, I get bored easily & have a short attention span, so I'm spicing it up on taking up sports, I'd like to find something else too. 
I got frustrated at just walking around a park, it was fine, but I like a challenge, so I spoke about taking up sports instead.
Anyway, I know I'm waffling on, but that's 'my two cents' and I wish you well on your journey.


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## Cicada (Aug 1, 2013)

Tiamat said:


> I may very well be wanted for murder by the end of this week.  In fact, I'd wager that the only reason I don't have any blood on my hands yet is because I can't decide which I'd rather kill for: bacon or a smoke.



In terms of mock NaNoWriMo ideas: Best. Plot. Ever.

A young man/woman having recently gone on a diet from certain foods along with smoking, finally chooses to end the diet only to discover the mafias have taken over the bacon world and the smoking world respectively. So which mafia will he/she attack? The Baconmen? or The Smokers? Dun. Dun. Duuu-nn.

Really I do feel for you, though. My brother just went through this a few years back... and he worked at a smoke shop. Needless to say, he eventually got a new job and struggled to stay away from what he called "stress foods". Hopefully this works out for you better than it did for him.


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## Shadoe (Aug 1, 2013)

Tiamat said:


> I absolutely agree with this.  My biggest problem with the whole "quitting" thing is that I truly enjoy the heck out of smoking.  (Ironic, since I was vehemently against it until about five years ago when I started.)  But I also hate dropping $30 a week on a complete waste of money.  The quitting thing came about because last week, I stomped my foot and said, "That's it!  I ain't spending any more money on these!"


That is EXACTLY what didn't for me. I figured out how much money I spent per year on cigs, vs. how much I spent on other things and decided, "Screw that!"

It did help that I was working on base at the time and the only place you could smoke was the bathrooms. I got tired of having to sit there and talk to myself.



> That's what I've been using, actually.  The hardest part about the whole thing is the routine.  I get to work early, sit in my car, and have a smoke.  I go on lunch, go outside, and have a smoke.  I finish my dinner, go outside, and have a smoke.  At least the ecig allows me to feel like I'm smoking.  And since I think they taste terrible, weening myself off of them in the future shouldn't be as terrible.


Changing your routine will help change your habits. Find something else to do during times you used to smoke. Substituting the ecig for a cig isn't really changing that habit. Try substituting some other activity during one or two of your "smoke" times. Something you can't smoke while doing. That will ease you off the habit.


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## popsprocket (Aug 1, 2013)

Congrats on trying (and succeeding at) both at once, no matter how daring it was 

If you lived in Australia then the decision not to spend money on cigs would have been far more apparent. They just put up the tax again and I think the news-lady said the average 20 pack just went up to $22.


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## Cran (Aug 1, 2013)

popsprocket said:


> Congrats on trying (and succeeding at) both at once, no matter how daring it was
> 
> If you lived in Australia then the decision not to spend money on cigs would have been far more apparent. They just put up the tax again and I think the news-lady said the average 20 pack just went up to $22.


 With more increases planned over the next few years until it reaches $25 per pack.


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## Staff Deployment (Aug 1, 2013)

The shupfits I sometimes eat with were complaining about it the other day, I remember that. Made me glad I've never picked it up. Then again, it's last in the line of things I said I'd never pick up: coffee, drinking, and smoking. Two strikes already.


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## Indui (Aug 3, 2013)

I just want to say I have a lot of respect for you for doing this. I'm so tired of hearing people complain about bad habits, and then doing nothing to fix it. I applaud you for your perseverance.


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## Blade (Aug 6, 2013)

popsprocket said:


> If you lived in Australia then the decision not to spend money on cigs would have been far more apparent. They just put up the tax again and I think the news-lady said the average 20 pack just went up to $22.



That would do it. I live in Ontario, Canada and I believe that a 20 pack of the cheaper brands is just under $6, depending on where you buy them. A carton of king size (8 X 25) would run you under $60.

The government would love to increase taxes but there is a well established illegal trade via tax free Indian reservations. An illegal carton would cost $20 - $30 so tax increases simply feed into the black market. The quality of the contaband is pretty dubious but it does put a serious curb on taxes.:apologetic:


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