# Short stories good practice for long novels?



## ViKtoricus (Nov 9, 2013)

Hi again. It's Viktoricus with a new question.

As a lot of you know, I'm an aspiring novelist. But my abilities are still too "beginnerish". I find it hard to practice writing novels as they are sooooooooooooooo long! I am limited to writing certain scenes, and as far as scenes are concerned, I'm afraid that I may run out of ideas. There can only be a number of scenes possible in any written story.

I feel that short stories and flash fiction will allow me to finish stories while painting scenes at the same time, giving my writing muscles a full exercise.

But I also believe in the concept of specificity. I have applied such a philosophy in my weightlifting and it has worked...

What do I do??? All I want is to improve and be like Stephen King! Or be BETTER than Stephen King!


----------



## FleshEater (Nov 9, 2013)

Sam and I literally beat this dead horse into Elmer's glue in another one of your threads: http://www.writingforums.com/threads/142678-Should-I-scrap-my-initial-novel-and-start-fresh


----------



## ViKtoricus (Nov 9, 2013)

I know that. But I want this to be a main subject of discussion. During that thread, it was just a side thing that was discussed. Now, I want it to be the topic.


----------



## FleshEater (Nov 9, 2013)

Every story you've posted in the workshop has been nothing more than a scene. If you wrote anything that had a beginning, middle, and end it'd be a step in the right direction. 

Writing and weightlifting aren't the same. You can target and build certain muscles, but in writing, you have to develop as a whole. If you want an analogy, it'd be considered cross training. You have to focus on plot, characterization, grammar, etcetera all at once. If you only focus on developing your own personal narration and describing things, then your plot, characterization, grammar, etcetera will suffer. 

In other words, read novels, and just write.


----------



## popsprocket (Nov 9, 2013)

No.

Writing long and short fiction are quite different endeavours. Just as short fiction is bad at honing your novel-writing skills, writing novels is bad for honing your short story skills.

Both will help improve your overall writing and story telling abilities, but neither will count as much experience toward performing the other.


----------



## bookmasta (Nov 9, 2013)

Writing a short story and a novel can be compared in terms of distance. Sure, you can train for a 5k (3.1 miles) but its not going to prepare you for a marathon. (26.2 miles). The only way to write a novel is to do it. Skills come with time, patience, and repetition. This is writing and not weight lifting. The best way to improve is to write and when you're not writing, read. It took Steven King years and a lot of practice before his fist novel, Carrie, was published.


----------



## Terry D (Nov 10, 2013)

Good advice here so far. I'd like to add my perspective. Doing any writing is going to be good practice. Even working on poetry will help build writing muscles which will be useful when writing a novel, or short story. But, what is also critical is to know the differences between the two forms. It is much more that simply length. A novel is like symphony, a complex composition of many movements by a multitude of individual instruments all tied together by a single theme. A short story is one song performed by a small band. Both can be powerful and moving, but in far different ways.


----------



## Andyfuji (Nov 10, 2013)

Personally, I don't see a very big difference between short stories and novels.  Sure, one is obviously longer.  But, to me anyway, it's like comparing one side of a box to the whole box -thinking of a novel's chapters as nothing more than a string of interdependent short stories.  Charles Dickens, most notably, published the majority of his work as serials in various magazines, and they're all still classic novels.  So I don't see any real problem with practicing novel writing in short stories.


----------



## Marc (Nov 10, 2013)

Writing scenes is a great start. Now try to connect the scenes (moving characters from point A to point B.") Let's say you have a scene in a coffee shop where your hero meets the woman of his dreams. You've got the dialogue, what they drink, etc...  Now back back up and figure out a way to get the hero to the coffee shop. Later there's another scene where your hero realizes the woman is a she-devil who bites off the faces of those she sleeps with. Now you need a trail to bring him to that scene etc....  Ideas will come to you as you work on it. Keep the process simple and gradually a "novel" story will emerge. E.L. Doctorow said the following about writing a novel: "It's like driving a car at night. You never see further than your headlights but you can make the whole trip that way.


----------



## Kyle R (Nov 10, 2013)

Novels, the way I approach them, are the same as a short story, only a novel involves more scenes.

A novelette I recently wrote ended up at around 10,500 words. It had around six scenes in it (plus some emotional reaction scenes which function more as micro-scenes).

I'm working on a novel right now, and in it, I've plotted out 40 scenes. It's the same process, writing each scene and linking them together, just with a larger end-product.

The scenes in my novel are written in the same style and general length as my novelette scenes. There's just more of them, is all. Not much difference in technique or approach.

In a short story I recently wrote, it was the same thing, only I had three scenes, instead of seven. Same everything, just less scenes.

So, in my opinion, yes, short stories can be good practice for novel writing, if you consider the only difference to be the number of scenes. I suppose in the end it depends on how you construct your stories. :encouragement:


----------



## Morkonan (Nov 10, 2013)

ViKtoricus said:


> ...What do I do??? All I want is to improve and be like Stephen King! Or be BETTER than Stephen King!



No, you don't want to be like Stephen King. If you try to be like Stephen King, you will fail. You want to be ViKtoricus, not Stephen King.

Shorts stories can help you hone your skills. They can help you learn how to write scenes, give descriptions, write dialogue and come up with something resembling a cohesive story with a simple plot. To put it in terms you seem to like, working with lighter weights in order to perfect your form can certainly help you when it comes down to lifting for max weight. 

But, shorts aren't going to teach you everything there is to know about writing a novel. There are certain mental muscles, there, that will not get worked out until you start writing a novel. So, perfect your form in commonly used techniques in writing by cranking out some short stories. Then, once you're ready, you can tackle bigger projects.


----------



## voltigeur (Nov 10, 2013)

Deleted.


----------



## FleshEater (Nov 10, 2013)

Viktoricus, you've been picking all of our brains for information through countless threads asking countless questions. Now I have to ask a question; how many novels or short stories have you read this year?


----------



## Newman (Nov 10, 2013)

Yes.

Short stories, TV shows, film scripts....all useful for figuring out what a story really is.


----------



## Audrey_Archard (Nov 10, 2013)

Yes, I've written quite a few short stories, and in my experience, they Definitely help with longer works.


----------



## Gamer_2k4 (Nov 11, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> Viktoricus, you've been picking all of our brains for information through countless threads asking countless questions. Now I have to ask a question; how many novels or short stories have you read this year?



Furthermore, how many novels or short stories have you written this year of appreciable quality?

Sure, you write a lot of scenes, but that's not going to help you finish a story any more than designing a race or a language or a starship will help you write a fantasy or sci-fi piece.  At some point, you need plot, narrative, characters, and everything else that makes a story tick.

When you lift weights, you don't just lift weights.  You drink water, you eat well, you get enough sleep, you stretch and warm up.  The lift is what you remember, just as scenes are what readers remember.  But there's a lot going on behind the scenes that needs to be mastered before the visible part has any merit.


----------



## Jeko (Nov 11, 2013)

Writing one will not help you perfect the form of the other, but both rely on the same rules of plot, ideas and the communication of them.


----------



## tabasco5 (Nov 11, 2013)

Writing and completing short stories will help you develop as a writer by giving you an idea of what all is involved with the process.  Going through the story writing process numerous times from beginning to end will help you better understand your own style and writing/editing process, and will better prepare you to eventually write a novel.  Many great writers started with short stories and worked their way up.

I would recommend writing a few short stories and have them thoroughly critiqued.  Revise, edit, revise, until you have a satisfactory product.  Do this a few times and your writing will improve tremendously.  Then try for the novel.


----------



## FleshEater (Nov 11, 2013)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> Sure, you write a lot of scenes, but that's not going to help you finish a story any more than designing a race or a language or a starship will help you write a fantasy or sci-fi piece.



Neither will asking countless questions and then not participating productively in the discussion.


----------



## Bloggsworth (Nov 11, 2013)

popsprocket said:


> No.
> 
> Writing long and short fiction are quite different endeavours. Just as short fiction is bad at honing your novel-writing skills, writing novels is bad for honing your short story skills.
> 
> Both will help improve your overall writing and story telling abilities, but neither will count as much experience toward performing the other.




Twaddle.


----------



## Kevin (Nov 11, 2013)

I don't understand. Isn't a novel a series of scenes involving the same characters over and over, either together or apart, but somehow in an interconnected way until the author decides to finish it, often leaving the exact endings out, or not, and with the opening scenes perhaps having nothing to do with how it all ends, other than it follows a certain timeline, and involves the same or related characters? 

Ch. 1: see Spot sit.
Ch. 2: see Spot run.
Ch. 3: see Dick and Jane play with Spot.
Ch. 4: see Spot run, away.
Ch. 5: see Spot come back.  Everybody's happy. The end.


----------



## Sam (Nov 11, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> Sam and I literally beat this dead horse into Elmer's glue in another one of your threads: http://www.writingforums.com/threads/142678-Should-I-scrap-my-initial-novel-and-start-fresh



Quite. 



			
				ViKtoricus said:
			
		

> ]What do I do??? All I want is to improve and be like Stephen King! Or be BETTER than Stephen King!



This has been answered for you on so many occasions now that it's becoming ridiculously pedestrian. There are two things you need to do to become a better writer: read and write extensively. Everything else is white noise.


----------



## Morkonan (Nov 11, 2013)

Kevin said:


> ..
> Ch. 1: see Spot sit.
> Ch. 2: see Spot run.
> Ch. 3: see Dick and Jane play with Spot.



This is a story.



> Ch. 4: see Spot run, away.
> Ch. 5: see Spot come back.  Everybody's happy. The end.



That is a plot!

But, Chapter Four might be a little late to reveal your main plot element. Then again, if you're writing "Literature", I guess it's OK. Nobody seems to care if a literary novel takes 3/4 of the book to develop a darn plot...




> I don't understand. Isn't a novel a series of scenes involving the same  characters over and over, either together or apart, but somehow in an  interconnected way until the author decides to finish it, often leaving  the exact endings out, or not, and with the opening scenes perhaps  having nothing to do with how it all ends, other than it follows a  certain timeline, and involves the same or related characters?



That's the point of my comments above, in this post - What you're describing is a "story." There's no real underlying connection between all the characters and scenes other than they're in the story and the author is describing events. But, if you have a "plot", then all these characters and even the scenes have something outside of just their "beingness" to connect them. There's a "reason" that they're all present in the novel -A "Cause" acts as the Prime Mover for events and structure within the novel. For a Schoolteacher to be driven mad by a terribly abusive relationship and then to rampage through a school with a bucket of paint, painting all the kids purple and being gunned down in the end as detectives pontificate upon the degrading state of affairs in our society, you have to have a Schoolteacher character, a school, a bunch of schoolkids and some cops and an abuser. But, if there's no sense, no _cause_ or reason for any of this activity being detailed other than some author just writing a sequence of events, then it's just a story, a "Day in the Life" that has no further ties between characters and events.

"Ferris Beuhler's Day Off" doesn't have much of a plot. That's fine, it doesn't have to. It's just there to entertain the viewer with Ferris's antics and some very minor hijinks. But, a similar story, "Risky Business" does have a plot. Both involve adolescents who are pushing their adolescent boundaries, yet only one has a very clear "plot" in which other characters and events obviously have a purpose other than just window dressing.

In a short, you can't waste a whole lot of time getting around to "Plot" matters. You don't have to have one and, indeed, Shorts are great as just commentary pieces - You don't have to worry about boring some reader to death if all you want to do is nail your bans on the church door. But, if you're depending on having a clear Plot, you had best get right to it, posthaste, forsooth... and all that. In a Novel, whoever, you can introduce plot elements, but you can ramble about a bit, building up your characters and main actors, before slamming the Reader with your "Prime Mover." You might even engage in a bit of misdirection, sneaking a trick Plot under the Reader's wires before revealing the True Plot. That's not something you can easily do in a Short, unless you're fond of the ending "... and then he woke up."

In other words that would be more welcomed than my long diatribe - Shorts can help hone your basic skills, but there are some skills that will not be touched until you begin writing a novel.


----------



## ViKtoricus (Nov 12, 2013)

You know guys, I've been thinking
lately... I think some of you are putting this whole thing the wrong
way.





To me, short stories and novels are not
like a sprint and a marathon. I think it's a *squat* and a
*clean+jerk*. In a weightlifting program (NOT BODYBUILDING, NOT
POWERLIFTING, WEIGHTLIFTING... KNOW THE DIFFERENCE), there are three
exercises that must always be involved, or else the program will be
inefficient. This is the squat (front or back), the snatch, and the
clean+jerk. It is not a weightlifting program if it doesn't include
all of the above.





Even though the clean+jerk works the
legs, it does not overload it with stimulus as much as a heavy back
squat or a front squat would. And since the legs are the most
important muscles in the clean+jerk, they MUST be overloaded with
stimulus. This is why the squat becomes indispensable.





You see, Mark Twain and Stephen King
published lots of short stories before endeavouring novel-writing.
Their experience in short stories have given them a strong “base”
as far as writing skills, the same way that squats give you strong
legs for the clean+jerk.





I think short stories should not be
underestimated as tools for practicing.


----------



## Caragula (Nov 13, 2013)

Viktoricus, I may have missed it and forgive me if I have, but on at least two of the threads you've created someone's mentioned that you should read some stuff or otherwise asked you what you have read.  Have you confirmed what you're reading?  How much do you read?  Writing is breathing for writers.  Reading is nourishment for writers.  It's hard to breathe without nourishment.


----------



## Macduff Inkwell (Nov 13, 2013)

I've always been taught that short stories were like baby stories; it didn't require a huge, elaborate plot with multiple characters and POVs that spanned for hundreds of pages. Short stories focuses on a few key individuals in a specific setting. Novels are much, much larger than that. In order to get to novels, you need to practice completing short stories to build your strength up. In addition to this, reading multiple fiction books and seeing how the other authors do their thing helps. Don't worry about being like Mark Twain. You want to be yourself, unique. If I wanted to read Mark Twain, I'll pick out one of his books from the bookstore. You want people to read Vicktoricus' books.


----------

