# Rules of Writing - Are There Really Any?



## BeastlyBeast (Jun 6, 2014)

I was always intrigued by the 'rules of writing.' Many writers will say that writing is a very imaginative process, and with that comes no rules. Others, though will say that there are lots of rules and guidelines with writing. Perhaps some of the most common are 'kill your babies' and 'show don't tell.' My question to you is, how often do you find yourself following these so-called rules? Do you try to follow all of them, just the "golden ones," or do you not follow any at all? I personally think it's best to follow the more important, most commonly said ones, like the two I had mentioned. There are certainly guidelines that will make your story much better in the long run, if you choose to follow them, or so I believe. However, I believe the super-specific ones are less important. When a writer says the most important thing is to never use big words, always plot, or always carry a notebook around when you write, I don't really follow them, because I believe they are very subjective and those results will vary from writer to writer. One writer may need to use bigger words in his style, whereas others may not. One writer may feel a notebook can help, while even Stephen King believes it "immortalizes bad ideas." Some of the most known authors of today, such as Stephen King, and George R.R Martin don't even plot. George said one of the reasons his books take so long is because he doesn't plot very much, and he's always trying to figure out what happens next. What about you?


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## Skodt (Jun 6, 2014)

Sure there are rules. 

Rule 1-infinity: Write.

Pretty simple rule book.


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## Bishop (Jun 6, 2014)

Skodt said:


> Sure there are rules.
> 
> Rule 1-infinity: Write.
> 
> Pretty simple rule book.



Yeah, that's about it.

You'll get a lot of pompous authors or literature critics/scholars who will try to tell you what are ironclad do's and dont's of writing, but the reality is that any and all rules can be broken in any form of art. Look at John Cage's musical composition "4'33", or Jackson Pollack's art versus Da Vinci's. Writing is the sole aspect of a writer, so write what you want, how you want.


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## T.S.Bowman (Jun 6, 2014)

BeastlyBeast said:


> I was always intrigued by the 'rules of writing.' Many writers will say that writing is a very imaginative process, and with that comes no rules. Others, though will say that there are lots of rules and guidelines with writing. Perhaps some of the most common are 'kill your babies' and 'show don't tell.' My question to you is, how often do you find yourself following these so-called rules? Do you try to follow all of them, just the "golden ones," or do you not follow any at all? I personally think it's best to follow the more important, most commonly said ones, like the two I had mentioned. There are certainly guidelines that will make your story much better in the long run, if you choose to follow them, or so I believe. However, I believe the super-specific ones are less important. When a writer says the most important thing is to never use big words, always plot, or always carry a notebook around when you write, I don't really follow them, because I believe they are very subjective and those results will vary from writer to writer. One writer may need to use bigger words in his style, whereas others may not. One writer may feel a notebook can help, while even Stephen King believes it "immortalizes bad ideas." Some of the most known authors of today, such as Stephen King, and George R.R Martin don't even plot. George said one of the reasons his books take so long is because he doesn't plot very much, and he's always trying to figure out what happens next. What about you?



There is only one rule...WRITE!!

Any other "rules" are made up by writers who are trying to say their way is the "right" way to write. That makes those rules completely arbitrary. 

There are suggestions....guidelines....ideas....

The only real rules that apply are the rules of grammar. And even those are being stretched these days.

As for myself, I will break every rule necessary to make my work as good as it can possibly be.


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## shadowwalker (Jun 6, 2014)

The only rules in writing are concerned with grammar and spelling. The rest, as noted above, are suggestions, ideas, advice, tips, etc. If anyone states you should or must follow those, they're too full of themselves to listen to.


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## Kyle R (Jun 6, 2014)

Even spag (spelling and grammar) can be broken or ignored for effect.

The following is the opening line of a professionally published story, from a career writer:



			
				Thug said:
			
		

> _hello. my name iz alvin becker but i g__ess you know that alredy becuz i am the only one that will read this._


The story is written from the POV of an uneducated prisoner, so abusing the grammar and spelling aides in the illusion. 

One doesn't even need punctuation or capitalization with novels anymore, as the _Verse Novel_ is becoming a popular trend (novels written in free verse, poetry form.)

Personally, I don't believe there are any rules in writing, except the ones you choose to believe in yourself.

There are a lot of _conventions_, of norms and popular approaches. And yes, in certain fields of writing, like academic and non-fiction, grammar and spelling certainly apply.

In fiction, though, it's pretty much all in the air. Whatever works for the story. :encouragement:


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## shadowwalker (Jun 6, 2014)

KyleColorado said:


> Even spag (spelling and grammar) can be broken or ignored for effect.



The fact they can be broken or ignored _for effect_ does not negate the fact they exist. There is an implicit acknowledgement that they are being broken or ignored - and authors will be called to task if they fail to produce that effect (ie, just look like they didn't know the rules).


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## J Anfinson (Jun 6, 2014)

Rule 1: Write in whatever methods work for you.

Rule 2: You must use either a manual method such as a pencil, pen, or typewriter, or an electronic method such as a computer. Unless you can think of a different way.

Seriously though, any rules you hear about aren't really rules. Nothing is set in stone.


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## Bruno Spatola (Jun 6, 2014)

I think maintaining tenses is the only absolute rule I abide to. Everything else is just an optional guideline that helps to keep my creativity from getting too out of control or the writing being unreadable for others. One thing I did that would annoy people was make up words, but I stopped doing that for simplicity's sake.

Depends on the story, though. Sometimes breaking the rules is crucial, like in some of Irvine Welsh's work, and many others. Depends. Not too loose, not too strict, that's my basic philosophy with writing law.


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## Scribe101 (Jun 6, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> The fact they can be broken or ignored _for effect_ does not negate the fact they exist. There is an implicit acknowledgement that they are being broken or ignored - and authors will be called to task if they fail to produce that effect (ie, just look like they didn't know the rules).



I agree with this. 

Before one can break the rules for artistic effect, one must master them.


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## T.S.Bowman (Jun 6, 2014)

Scribe101 said:


> Before one can break the rules for artistic effect, one must master them.



I don't necessarily subscribe to this line of thought.

There is a section in my WIP that, when it has been reviewed, has been called a "grammatical nightmare". It was then pointed out that even though it grammatically incorrect, it was used to great effect.

I was an absolutely terrible student in English class. Grammar bored me to tears. The only reason I know how to put a sentence together is because of having read so many books in my lifetime. I know what works and what doesn't. 

I wouldn't know a dangling participle from an orange. So even though I broke the rules of grammar to good effect...I don't actually _know_ the rules of grammar.


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## Sam (Jun 6, 2014)

Scribe101 said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> Before one can break the rules for artistic effect, one must master them.



Do you need to know the traffic laws to break them? 

This is something often tacitly put forward in conversations of this nature, but it isn't accurate. I can break all the rules I want without knowing what they are or ever coming close to mastering them. Breaking them in a good way, however? That's a different story.


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## Scribe101 (Jun 6, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> I don't necessarily subscribe to this line of thought.
> 
> There is a section in my WIP that, when it has been reviewed, has been called a "grammatical nightmare". It was then pointed out that even though it grammatically incorrect, it was used to great effect.
> 
> ...



Hi TS, 

I never said that one must know the rules in order to break them. The word
used is _master_. It's an old adage that could've done with some qualification. 

Every written language has it's own underpinning logic. The simple reason for
this is clarity in comprehension and communication. The language
evolves solutions to problems. Commas and fullstops are good examples. 
Mastering these solutions will make you a better writer. You don't
necessarily have to know all of the 'rules'. As Aristotle said, a man can
master a craft without knowing why his techniques work. 

But in order for him to become a master he had to go through
some kind of learning process, some developmental journey. 
He had to master the established techniques by practising, 
and studying other masters, until eventually he had the 
confidence, skill and know-how to 'break the rules'. 

In that same way, a person masters a written language (and its different modes).

And not sure if I'm convinced by your argument. You say,
'I don't actually _know_ the rules of grammar'. But it's clear to me
that you do know some rules of grammar. You know about fullstops,
commas, and you know about good sentence structure. You study the masters and
you practise at writing in order to 'know what works and what doesn't'.

When a person truly masters a written language (in his chosen form)
he has the freedom to break the rules and create
wonderful, coherent works of literature. He doesn't do it by accident, 
doesn't leave it to chance or the position of the stars or the whim of fate - 
he does it by skill.

But even then, you can still create wonderful works of literature by
_not_ breaking the rules.


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## garza (Jun 6, 2014)

no no no no  

There is a set of rules for writing that *must be obeyed!!!*

Interestingly enough, even after people had been writing for thousands of years, it remained for Jack Kerouac, in the turmoil of the 20th Century, to finally codify the craft of writing in language so clear and unambiguous as to astound all who saw the list. 

For those who do not yet have the Rules for Writing engraved in your heart, or at least posted as the background image in the middle of your computer screen, you can find the list _*here*_.


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## Nickleby (Jun 6, 2014)

It's not a simple question. You can write without following any rules at all, but there's no guarantee that anyone else will understand it. In that case there's no point in writing it, is there?

I'm toying with the notion of starting a writing blog, but I want to have a few entries ready so I don't fall behind. The first one answers this question. I'll come back and add a link....


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## Pidgeon84 (Jun 6, 2014)

When I hear word rules I immediately turn off. It's not to say they don't have their place.  But if rules don't get broken they scene gets stale. Anytime you have your mind blown by something it's generally because someone broke a rule you didn't know could be broken. Of course it also has to be well done.


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## ppsage (Jun 6, 2014)

If you don't have any rules for the thing you're writing, you might be in trouble. If you've gotten far enough to choose some, *Just please don't tell them to anybody.*


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## bazz cargo (Jun 7, 2014)

I like rules. How can I be subversive without something to subvert?

Plus writing guides sell by the container load. Way to get rich...


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## Jeko (Jun 7, 2014)

There are rules for proper spelling and grammar, but they aren't rules for writing. They're rules used by writers, whether they're kept or broken. The same goes for everything else that people call 'rules for writing'.



> Before one can break the rules for artistic effect, one must master them.



I usually follow the quote in my sig; no-one ever masters anything in writing. People call some writers 'masters', but there's no perfection - there's no absolute limit of how good a writer can get at any part of their craft.

If you want to get good at something, and more flexible with it, practice. What and how you practice are up to you; you can learn 'rules' in order to artistically break them and be able to talk about how you did it. You can also practice less tangible perspectives on the craft, things that you can't talk about as much, and be called a 'master' just as much as the next guy.


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## garza (Jun 7, 2014)

For me and for many others of my generation _the_ Master was Jack Kerouac and his guide to the way the world works is _On the Road_. Those 30 rules do not constitute a joke, as some people believe, or at least, want to believe. Perhaps it's needful to be of my generation to read them aright. And while for years I've kept Kerouac's 'Rules for Spontaneous Prose' before me, I've never been able to free myself from the other rules for writing that I've been taught from boyhood; never been able to let go to the extent that Kerouac's rules require. 

The first five are easy - they fit my nature. I've had uneven success with putting the other 25 into practice. I've made my living listening to Henry Fowler and using his book as my bible. Perhaps if, at a very early age, I'd listened more intently to Kerouac, I would have achieved the spontaneity his rules require of the writer. 

Perhaps. 

Now I'll never know.


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## EmmaSohan (Jun 7, 2014)

Cadence suggested that when writing in first person, the exposition had to be in the voice of the main character.


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## garza (Jun 7, 2014)

Not so. Consider the Sherlock Holmes stories. Doctor Watson is the first person narrator, but the main character is Holmes. And first person does not have to mean first person 'I'; it can mean first person 'we' as in Faulkner's 'A Rose for Emily'.


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## EmmaSohan (Jun 7, 2014)

True, thanks.

I am not sure how to say it. If there is an "I" telling the story, the exposition should be in the voice of that person.


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## garza (Jun 7, 2014)

Certainly. In the case of the Sherlock Holmes stories, the narration, or exposition, is in the voice of Doctor Watson. There are some exceptions, but Watson is the teller of the tale in almost all te Holmes stories. It's his voice we hear. 

In Conrad's _Heart of Darkness_ there are two narrators. One goes unnamed and  speaks in the first person plural as spokesperson for a small group who listen to the second narrator, a ship's captain named Marlowe, as he tells the story in the first person singular of the character Kurtz around whom the story develops. Conrad used a similar technique in another book, _Lord Jim_. 

So there are three levels with two narrators, and there is no rule to cover the situation except the rule that says you should have a good story well written.


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## EmmaSohan (Jun 7, 2014)

If Dr. Watson is the narrator, doesn't the exposition have to be in his voice? Could someone rewrite the book having Dr. Watson speak in 1900 English and narrate in 2014 American?

For the second one, the exposition by the small group has to be in their voice. If we don't know them, then almost anything is possible except changing voice. Right? And the exposition by Marlowe has to be in his voice?

Flowers for Algernon is a good example of someone following this rule. I started reading "On the Road" today, and I think the book is interesting only if I assume the exposition is the voice of the main character. I'm not reading another page if this isn't true.


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## garza (Jun 7, 2014)

Please note what I wrote in my last post: '..._the narration, or exposition, is in the voice of Doctor Watson_...'

The unnamed narrator in _Heart of Darkness_ speaks for the group in the same way the narrator in _A Rose for Emily_ speaks for the town of Jefferson. In each case the narrator uses the first person plural. 'We listened...We thought...'

I don't know what rule you mean. There is no rule that says how a story is to be presented. That's for the writer to decide.

I'm not at all certain now by what you mean by 'exposition'. Do you mean the narrative or descriptive parts of a story as opposed to, say, dialogue? An exposition is an explanation of something, such as an explanation of the water cycle in a primary school science text. Some of Doctor Watson's narrative in the Sherlock Holmes stories may be considered exposition as he explained such matters as Holmes' housekeeping habits. Likewise when Holmes explains his detecting methods, that too can be called exposition, but I've always heard such passages called narrative - the telling of the story.

I've not read _Flowers for Algernon_ in many, many years, and I don't remember what technique is used. I do recall not being particularly impressed by the novel, which would explain why I don't have a clear memory of it and why I only read it the one time.
_
On the Road_ is a first person singular narration; an autobiographical novel by Jack Kerouac and is a grand piece of writing by a master that was a great inspiration for my generation. If, however, you believe Kerouac violated some sort of mystical rule in writing _On the Road_ to describe his own life then I do suggest you put the book down and read no further.


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## Jeko (Jun 8, 2014)

> Cadence suggested that when writing in first person, the exposition had to be in the voice of the main character.



I don't recall saying something like that.


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## Paulbee (Jun 8, 2014)

Rules or misrules? That is the question. I passionately believe that as long as you can convey your ideas effectively to the reader then you're onto a winner. Keep your target audience in mind as well. Great Aunt Elsie may not understand, "S'up biatch? Whatever, innit?"


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## garza (Jun 8, 2014)

You may cite any supposed 'rule' you desire and someone will bring to your attention a literary masterpiece that does the opposite.

A good story well written. That's all that's needed.


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## squidtender (Jun 8, 2014)

I've never passed up the opportunity to learn more about writing . . . rules, styles, techniques and tricks. Sponge as much of that up as you can. That being said, I prefer to keep the whole thing simple:

1. Read, read, read. 
2. Write, write, write. 
3. Figure out what the milestones for my story are (plot points, pinch points, ect.) so I have _somewhat_ of an idea of the direction I'm heading. 

As for the rest, I just let myself go and see where it takes me. Really what it comes down to is finding what works for you. As long as you're writing, learning, growing and enjoying it, then you're probably following the right "rules".


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## Terry D (Jun 8, 2014)

When writing, every tap of the keyboard, or stroke of the pen, pencil, or crayon needs to have a purpose. Controlling those taps and strokes and shaping them into a good piece of writing requires effort and focus. Obtaining that focus and committing to that effort can be learned from studying and applying the 'rules' which have helped others, or it can be sometimes (rarely in my opinion) be garnered intuitively.

In my experience, on this and other forums (*I just deliberately broke a 'rule'. Do you know what it is?), there are two sorts of folks who eschew the 'rules'; those who do so with understanding and forethought for the sake of enhancing their work, and those who are too lazy to be bothered with them. It's not difficult to sort them one from the other when you read their stories.

*Answer--The proper plural for 'forum' is 'fora', but I think that's a puffy and pretentious word, so I never use it (drives some pedants crazy).


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## Paulbee (Jun 8, 2014)

Terry, I want to hire your golden retriever, he seems to have a handle on the situation! If writing is a chore then you're doing it wrong. (Could get Carry On style smutty but I'll restrain myself. 'Ooo eerrr Matron!')


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## Morkonan (Jun 8, 2014)

BeastlyBeast said:


> ... My question to you is, how often do you find yourself following these so-called rules? Do you try to follow all of them, just the "golden ones," ..



There is only one _rule_.

*The First Law of Writing: *Keep the Reader reading.

That's it. Everything else, all the other "guidelines" and "advice" you've read, is focused on this Law. If they're not focused on satisfying this one Law, then they're not worth remembering.


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## J.T. Chris (Jun 8, 2014)

The only rule I ascribe to is to write truthfully.


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## voltigeur (Jun 8, 2014)

I only have 3 rules that I abide by: 

1) Produce the very best work that I can at all times. 

2) Don’t be a precocious ass, and argue with people that, are volunteering their time to help me. 

3) Don’t let anyone dictate my creative process to me.


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## BeastlyBeast (Jun 9, 2014)

Wow... I'm surprised that most of the writers here don't follow these rules, or guidelines as some may prefer to call them. I think that it is true, the absolute best thing to go by is, "Just write with feeling." Write what you want, in the best way you can and hopefully, the rest will follow.  I think that's why I haven't been writing very much these days. Well, that and school. LOL! I've been so caught up in thinking I'll never be able to follow the rules, when really all I need to do is just write out the story.


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## aliveatnight (Jun 9, 2014)

Worrying about rules just takes away from the time you could be writing. Absorb everything you can, but realize that nothing is absolute. You have to mess around with things to know what works and doesn't work, because everything will vary from author to author.


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## EmmaSohan (Jun 9, 2014)

What about, "Don't tell the reader what's going to happen."

Yes, a writer should break this rule if it makes the story better. But does this ever really happen?


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## EmmaSohan (Jun 9, 2014)

("_Cadence suggested that when writing in first person, the exposition had to be in the voice of the main character."_



Cadence said:


> I don't recall saying something like that.



I am happy to take credit for the idea, I liked it. But I did get it from you. I had asked "So I was wondering why the author didn't write in first person if he was willing to accept all the limitations of first person." You answered, "Likely because he didn't want to use the characters' voices. And it's about the focalizer, as Clove says."_

_


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## J.T. Chris (Jun 9, 2014)

EmmaSohan said:


> What about, "Don't tell the reader what's going to happen."
> 
> Yes, a writer should break this rule if it makes the story better. But does this ever really happen?



I'm not sure I understand what this "rule" means. If it means intentionally keeping things from your reader, then I disagree with that.


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## EmmaSohan (Jun 9, 2014)

Well, if you are writing a detective novel, don't tell the reader who did it until the end of the story.

"Jane really blasted me. I walking into the room. I was worried that she might say something. I thought I was safe, because she wouldn't blow up on me in a crowded room. Still, my stomach was roiling. I opened the door, took a tentative step into the room, looked around, and Jane started in on me with swear words that would embarrass a sailor"

I learned to cut out the first sentence (which I think of as the topic sentence) when I tried to write suspense. But it seems like a general rule for any fiction.


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## J.T. Chris (Jun 9, 2014)

EmmaSohan said:


> Well, if you are writing a detective novel, don't tell the reader who did it until the end of the story.
> 
> "Jane really blasted me. I walking into the room. I was worried that she might say something. I thought I was safe, because she wouldn't blow up on me in a crowded room. Still, my stomach was roiling. I opened the door, took a tentative step into the room, looked around, and Jane started in on me with swear words that would embarrass a sailor"
> 
> I learned to cut out the first sentence (which I think of as the topic sentence) when I tried to write suspense. But it seems like a general rule for any fiction.



Well, I can get on board with cutting that first sentence. I don't write detective fiction, so the entire structure of that escapes me. I do read a lot of Chandler though. He's very good at building mystery while not intentionally keeping things from the reader. And Sherlock Holmes. He knows who did it the first time he inspects the crime scene, and Doyle leaves all the clues there for the reader, too. But that's the brilliance of Holmes, and Doyle ultimately.


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## EmmaSohan (Jun 9, 2014)

What about the rule "Don't use the wrong word."  Or, if you have to, make sure you explain it to your reader somehow.

Anyway, I did not mean "exposition". I meant the parts of the story that are not dialog, but instead are told by the "narrator". Those should be in the voice of the narrator. Apparently this is only relevant when the story is told by a character in the story.


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## J.T. Chris (Jun 9, 2014)

EmmaSohan said:


> What about the rule "Don't use the wrong word."  Or, if you have to, make sure you explain it to your reader somehow.
> 
> Anyway, I did not mean "exposition". I meant the parts of the story that are not dialog, but instead are told by the "narrator". Those should be in the voice of the narrator. Apparently this is only relevant when the story is told by a character in the story.



Well yeah, the tricky thing about first-person is in writing only what the narrator knows. But if the narrator knows something he is intentionally keeping from the reader, I get very angry at the writer.


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## EmmaSohan (Jun 9, 2014)

J.T. Chris said:


> Well, I can get on board with cutting that first sentence. I don't write detective fiction, so the entire structure of that escapes me. I do read a lot of Chandler though. He's very good at building suspense while not intentionally keeping things from the reader. And Sherlock Holmes. He knows who did it the first time he inspects the crime scene, and Doyle leaves all the clues there for the reader, too. But that's the brilliance of Holmes.



And I did not appreciate it until this discussion, but the narrator is Watson, who doesn't know who did it. That was brilliant way for Doyle to have an honest first person account and still keep things from the reader.


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## J.T. Chris (Jun 9, 2014)

EmmaSohan said:


> And I did not appreciate it until this discussion, but the narrator is Watson, who doesn't know who did it. That was brilliant way for Doyle to have an honest first person account and still keep things from the reader.



Yeah, that's why Doyle was such a genius. Holmes already knows everything because he's do damn brilliant. If Holmes narrated the stories, they would be over very quickly.


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## Ethan (Jun 9, 2014)

_I'm a great believer in 'The st__ory's the thing' . Spag, etc can be sorted out by those who have a talent for such, but if the story is valid, then rules can be applied by those who care about such things. I have never seen a story published solely on it's wonderful adherence to rules. One of the best and most engaging story I ever read was by a fourteen year old on another forum, littered with Spag, and with no coherent plot, it held me enthralled. Rules are rules, and if it suits you use 'em, if not make sure your story is a belter!_


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## Jeko (Jun 9, 2014)

> I had asked "So I was wondering why the author didn't write in first person if he was willing to accept all the limitations of first person." You answered, "Likely because he didn't want to use the characters' voices. And it's about the focalizer, as Clove says."



At no point in that response did I say that a writer has to give exposition through the main character when in first person. Also, the case we were talking about in that thread was an individual issue; I made no generalizations.

I think you've misread my response. A writer can choose the voice of their narration, the focalizer for it, the protagonist of the story/scene, and the characters which give exposition for the story. All of these can be different, as many stories demonstrate.


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## Terry D (Jun 9, 2014)

Ethan said:


> _I'm a great believer in 'The st__ory's the thing' . Spag, etc can be sorted out by those who have a talent for such, but if the story is valid, then rules can be applied by those who care about such things. I have never seen a story published solely on it's wonderful adherence to rules. One of the best and most engaging story I ever read was by a fourteen year old on another forum, littered with Spag, and with no coherent plot, it held me enthralled. Rules are rules, and if it suits you use 'em, if not make sure your story is a belter!_



I disagree, respectfully. A good story told poorly is, in my opinion, a poorly told story, nothing more. A good idea doesn't make up for crappy workmanship. It might sell. It might even be popular, but a Pinto is still a Pinto.


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## garza (Jun 9, 2014)

A good craft person takes pride in sharpening the skills needed to produce the best possible result. Correct spelling, punctuation, and grammar are basic skills that any writer must possess. There is no justification for failure to learn these skills. They are taught in schools, they are accessible in libraries and on the Internet, and anyone who wants to master these basic skills can do so. Failure to do so shows disrespect for the reader and disrespect for the craft of writing itself.


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## aj47 (Jun 9, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> The only rules in writing are concerned with grammar and spelling. The rest, as noted above, are suggestions, ideas, advice, tips, etc. If anyone states you should or must follow those, they're too full of themselves to listen to.



Exactly.  These "rules" give you the framework but what you build and how you build it is up to you.  There are "conventions" about different types of writing. For example, a novel is going to be longer than flash fiction and a sonnet will have more lines than a haiku.  But no one requires you to build novels or sonnets. if you choose to create something and call it by a name that has a generally-accepted definition, then it should follow the conventions for that definition.


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## shadowwalker (Jun 10, 2014)

Ethan said:


> _I'm a great believer in 'The st__ory's the thing' . Spag, etc can be sorted out by those who have a talent for such, but if the story is valid, then rules can be applied by those who care about such things. I have never seen a story published solely on it's wonderful adherence to rules. One of the best and most engaging story I ever read was by a fourteen year old on another forum, littered with Spag, and with no coherent plot, it held me enthralled. Rules are rules, and if it suits you use 'em, if not make sure your story is a belter!_



I wonder if writers who ignore grammar and spelling (not intentionally for effect but out of ignorance or laziness) ever think about how many more books they would have sold, how many more readers they would have had, how many more readers would have actually finished their story, had they put as much effort into the _craft _of writing as they did the art...


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## Blade (Jun 10, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> I wonder if writers who ignore grammar and spelling (not intentionally for effect but out of ignorance or laziness) ever think about how many more books they would have sold, how many more readers they would have had, how many more readers would have actually finished their story, had they put as much effort into the _craft _of writing as they did the art...



I would not know from first hand experience but I would be inclined to doubt it very much. If you have no sense of the development of the craft you would have no sense of the consequences either. A more polished performance is simply beyond their cognitive grasp.


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## Ethan (Jun 10, 2014)

When any writer submits their work for publication or indeed consideration for publication, the first person to read that may well be someone who requires no SPAg before they even consider the piece, and in this instance your point is well taken. However, If that first reader is one who wants to be entertained and can forgive and see past Grammatical errors etc., there are many jewels that merely lack polish. Tolkiens Lord of the Rings, considered by many as a masterpiece of English writing, is that what sold it? Perhaps it was the story. I am in no way denigrating correct SPAG, merely suggesting that it is not the be all and end all of great writing!


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## Bruno Spatola (Jun 10, 2014)

It's not the be-all and end-all, no, but it's one of the foundations, and foundations stop structures from falling down. 

Unless you have a learning disability or are using purposefully poor SPaG for stylistic effect, there's actually no reason not to be as perfect as you possibly can; it's easier to read, for one


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## garza (Jun 10, 2014)

Of course it's not the 'be all and end all' of great writing. It's the foundation of the craft. To say that ignoring SPaG is okay is the same as telling an apprentice carpenter that there's no need to learn to drive a nail straight, no need to make a smooth cut with a saw, no need to measure anything to be certain the pieces fit together. There's no guarantee that the apprentice who masters those skills will ever be a master builder, but there's no way for the person who does not master those skills to ever be anything but an apprentice. The would-be writer who considers himself too good to bother learning the skills required at the apprentice level is unlikely ever to rise above that level. 

Tolkien was a master story teller, and also a master of the language. A sloppy writer without regard or respect for the language might have had ideas about such stories built on the old mythology of northern Europe, but without basic skills with hammer and saw could never have built a world nor brought to life characters in the way that Tolkien did. 

The accepted standards of spelling, punctuation, grammar, and usage mark the starting point, the minimum requirements that need to be met to move from apprentice to journeyman and, perhaps, to master builder.

A good story, well written can only be the work of a skilled crafts person.


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## Terry D (Jun 10, 2014)

Ethan said:


> When any writer submits their work for publication or indeed consideration for publication, the first person to read that may well be someone who requires no SPAg before they even consider the piece, and in this instance your point is well taken. However, If that first reader is one who wants to be entertained and can forgive and see past Grammatical errors etc., there are many jewels that merely lack polish. Tolkiens Lord of the Rings, considered by many as a masterpiece of English writing, is that what sold it? Perhaps it was the story. I am in no way denigrating correct SPAG, merely suggesting that it is not the be all and end all of great writing!



This attitude shows a lack of understanding of publishing. Editors reading unsolicited manuscripts are not looking for ‘developmental projects’ and have no time to teach a writer how to spell, punctuate, or construct a sentence properly. Correcting SPaG issues is not their job. Their job is to choose material for publication from a massive pile of (mostly) junk. They look for easy ways to sort for the ‘good stuff’: Handwritten ms? Reject. Not following submission guidelines? Reject. Improper manuscript format? Reject. Sloppy, unprofessional SPaG? Reject.

Once an editor has junked the easy stuff, then she can start looking for the gems in what’s left knowing full well that many good, well presented stories will still end up rejected because there’s just not room for all of the well written stuff that comes in. So, no, a great idea isn’t going to sell your story without a solid, professional presentation. Writing well is the job of the writer. If you ask an editor to do the fundamental work for you, you are not going to find any takers.


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## Ethan (Jun 10, 2014)

garza said:


> A good story, well written can only be the work of a skilled crafts person.



Absolutely agreed!
however, one can't help but wonder are all publications the work of A(Singular) craftsperson. Editors and beta readers usually separate the wheat from the chaff 'even Tolkien had an editor. and that is what they are for!
Look!, the only point I am making here, on a 'WRITERS FORUM' is that SPAG can be sorted out. Tell the story and if it's worth sorting, trust me, somebody will help you sort it!


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## Bruno Spatola (Jun 10, 2014)

Someone out there will do it for you, sure, but I still brush my own teeth in the morning before I go out and talk to people; that's the analogy I like to use.


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## Ethan (Jun 10, 2014)

and who wiped your arse before you knew it needed wiping, That's an anal ogy I like to use!


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## J.T. Chris (Jun 10, 2014)

The competition for getting published is already wickedly fierce. If you expect editors to overlook your SPAG errors then you are already resigning yourself to rejection before you even submit. A lot of new writers think that as long as they have a "cool idea" then that's enough for their story to sell. Writing is work like anything else. I've never worked with an editor who said, "This story is a good idea, but there are tons of grammar errors. I'm going to take care of all of that for you." It's never going to happen.


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## shadowwalker (Jun 10, 2014)

Expecting someone else to do it for you - whether beta, editor, spouse, or friend - because you think your storytelling is so brilliant you don't need to bother with it is just egotism coupled with laziness. A writer worth his/her salt will have written so much so often that SPaG becomes second nature. If they aren't, then the work needed should come from that writer, not "someone else".


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## shadowwalker (Jun 10, 2014)

Ethan said:


> and who wiped your arse before you knew it needed wiping, That's an anal ogy I like to use!



Who wiped it _after _you knew? Or ... well, let's let that analogy speak for itself.


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## prncssva (Jun 10, 2014)

Hey,

Well I will be honest taking advice is good but always learn what works for you. Somethings do not work for everyone so ex. with me I can get a storyline because I saw a bird today next thing I know I have a story and I am blogging. It all depends on what get you going and soon you will learn your own formula but until then just focus on one goal and let that goal be getting your story out everything else falls into place.


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## J.T. Chris (Jun 10, 2014)

Honestly, the only reason writing rules exist is to generate content for books about how to write. I've read very few books on writing that weren't total BS. The ones that I think are worth reading don't even include rules at all, merely the philosophy of the craft. John Gardner's _The Art of Fiction_ is a very good one.


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## Ethan (Jun 10, 2014)

Aoccdrnig to rscheearch by the Lngiusiitc Dptanmeret at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

Great books are weighed and measured by their style and matter, and not the trimmings and shadings of their grammar.
(Mark Twain; Speech at the Annual Reunion of the Army and Navy Club of Connecticut, April 1887)

When a thought takes one’s breath away, a grammar lesson seems an impertinence.” ~ Thomas W. Higginson

“Correct English is the slang of prigs who write history and essays.”  ~George Eliot

It is not the business of grammar, as some critics seem preposterously to imagine, to give law to the fashions which regulate our speech: George Campbell.

Some editors are failed writers, but so are most writers. ~ T. S. Eliot

A writer is somebody for whom writing is more difficult than it is for other people. ~ Thomas Mann

It took me fifteen years to discover I had no talent for writing, but I couldn’t give it up because by that time I was too famous. ~ Robert Benchley


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## Terry D (Jun 10, 2014)

Ethan said:


> Aoccdrnig to rscheearch by the Lngiusiitc Dptanmeret at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.
> 
> Great books are weighed and measured by their style and matter, and not the trimmings and shadings of their grammar.
> (Mark Twain; Speech at the Annual Reunion of the Army and Navy Club of Connecticut, April 1887)
> ...



None of which changes the fact that if you turn a sloppy manuscript in to an editor, it will be rejected.


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## Jeko (Jun 10, 2014)

> _Spag, etc can be sorted out by those who have a talent for such, but if the story is valid, then rules can be applied by those who care about such things._



The thought of getting a book published without being competent in SPaG sounds like the logic that allowed the Titanic to set sail. 

Seriously, why would you _not _make sure your SPaG is as good as it can be? If you're trying to make your style as good as it can be, your ideas as good as they can be, your pacing as good as it can be, your characters as good as they can be, then why would you allow that to be compromised by poor SPaG? Even if it can be fixed by someone else, it's a sign of laziness, and lazy writers don't get published.

SPaG is as much a part of a writer's job as clear pronunciation is part of a speaker's. You don't get to read the speech unless you can say it clearly, and you don't get to publish a book unless you can communicate the potential of your story clearly to those you send it to. That's means you need to care about SPaG if you care about the craft of writing.


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## Bishop (Jun 10, 2014)

Ethan said:


> Aoccdrnig to rscheearch by the Lngiusiitc Dptanmeret at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.
> 
> Great books are weighed and measured by their style and matter, and not the trimmings and shadings of their grammar.
> (Mark Twain; Speech at the Annual Reunion of the Army and Navy Club of Connecticut, April 1887)
> ...



But it's not just about finding the story in the language, it's about the writer's own concern for their work. Sure, you can have an amazing story and it might be world-changing, but it will get rejected with poor SPaG. Why? Because it tells the editor that you don't care enough to take the time to correct it. It says, "I know how good my work is and it's your job to make it readable, not mine." It's a form of arrogance and editors don't respond well to it. It says something about the value an author puts into his own writing is measured in part by his willingness to look at it again and again and see his own faults to try and make it as perfect as can be. That's not only a dedication to the craft and its tools, but a dedication to the work itself.


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## Kyle R (Jun 10, 2014)

Ethan said:


> I am in no way denigrating correct SPAG, merely suggesting that it is not the be all and end all of great writing!



I'll agree with that. SPaG isn't everything, as far as writing goes. If it were, every editor would be a best-selling author. 

And yes, it's true, story and SPaG are two separate things. But many writers—those with professional experience, especially—know that if you want to go anywhere with your writing, you need to respect both aspects of the craft.

In the world of amateur writing, SPaG errors can be forgiven. A great story can still be enjoyed, even if there are some surface flaws in the composition. 

In the world of professional writing, though, competency in SPaG is one of the first aspects agents and editors notice. It's enough to distinguish a writer who's worth their time from a writer who's not.

Put in the effort, I say. Write with excellent SPaG. Make them take you seriously. :encouragement:


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## garza (Jun 10, 2014)

Send a wire service editor a load of SPaG errors and he'll not bother to look at your next piece. The excuse that you were trying to beat AP with the story is not  acceptable. You should be able to file accurate copy on short deadline. An editor will forgive an occasional error, but the careless writer will soon find that his copy is no longer accepted. 

To spelling, punctuation, and grammar, I would add accuracy in usage as the fourth basic tool that the writer needs to keep sharpened. Remember what Twain said about using the right word.


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## ppsage (Jun 10, 2014)

Equating _the rules for writing_ (writing mostly meaning writing prose fiction apparently, for the purposes of this thread) with SPaG is a trivial and pointless exercise. Even if SPaG is extended to cover things like syntax. I think one really must assume that the writer speaks a language well enough to be reasonably intelligible, and that they can in the end or over time improve/edit the grammar issues sufficiently. Beyond this there are principles for writing (of prose fiction) the cognizance of which is often useful. It's helpful to understand what voice is, and that it's generally thought proper to keep it somehow consistent. Though none comes to mind (early Erdrich?), some successful works probably do not, but closer examination would probably reveal that this was accomplished, not in negation of the principle, but in accommodation of it. If you are writing at all, then the answer to the question _am I doing something wrong? _is probably _not at the moment but if you are, you'll surely find out later. _At which time you may choose to take addition action. I often think neophytes protesting rules, which are in any case actually principles, before they demonstrate a string of accomplishment, are really decrying art's general lack of formula. Same deal for those who propose them.


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## Morkonan (Jun 10, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> I wonder if writers who ignore grammar and spelling (not intentionally for effect but out of ignorance or laziness) ever think about how many more books they would have sold, how many more readers they would have had, how many more readers would have actually finished their story, had they put as much effort into the _craft _of writing as they did the art...



They choose to paint a beautiful picture on black canvas, using only black paint - Nobody can see it.

Sometimes, writers think that ignoring grammar makes them "edgy" or gives them some sort of "streetwise" quality that more proper writers lack. I won't talk about punctuation - There's no excuse for repeated punctuation mistakes.

I'm reminded of some classics, like "Tobacco Road" or "Huckleberry Finn" where the patois was part-and-parcel to the Setting. That's not the sort of thing either one of us is talking about, I don't think. I guess what I'm trying to say is that a writer that thinks they are above using the tools that are intrinsic to their trade is one step from stepping out of that trade.


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## garza (Jun 10, 2014)

I've spent too many hours sitting around in bars talking about writing with other wire service hacks and tend to forget that the kind of editor I'm accustomed to having to please does not deal with fiction, and that the object of the exercise here is to learn to write fiction. 

That aside, I'll stand by my conviction that a craft person with respect for the craft will take the time to keep the tools sharp and will handle them properly. Fiction or non-fiction, learning the basics of generally accepted standards would, in my opinion, be a prerequisite for success as a writer.


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## Morkonan (Jun 10, 2014)

garza said:


> I...That aside, I'll stand by my conviction that a craft person with respect for the craft will take the time to keep the tools sharp and will handle them properly. Fiction or non-fiction, learning the basics of generally accepted standards would, in my opinion, be a prerequisite for success as a writer.



^-- This.

Imagine a singer that mumbled incoherently, a painter that was color-blind, a musician that couldn't hear.. (Err, forget that last one.)

There is no logical reason to purposefully cripple one's ability to communicate if one's objective is to communicate.  Can one take a bit of "artistic license", from time to time? Certainly! But, in order to do that reliably well, you first have to _already _know what rules you can break.


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## Ethan (Jun 10, 2014)

Please read and follow the discussion! this is diverging from the original premis. 
I acknowledge that SPAG is important for an aspiring writer to have their work 'read, accepted, possibly forwarded from a slush pile.,etc.etc.,etc.
Now that we have dealt with this, the original question was regarding rules of writing. Rules of Grammar and rules of spelling are mute points. The story is the most important thing and all the rest can be 'added,corrected,adapted,changed. 
the discussion is NOT whether Spag is important IF YOU ARE SUBMITTING YOUR WORK TO A PUBLISHERS OR AGENT!'Somehow this has become a discussion on whether submitted work should be as grammatically correct as it can be.
*OF COURSE IT SHOULD!!!
*That said, this is a writers forum, with many emerging /aspiring writers. SO; I will stand by my original statement. SPAG is not the be all and end all of writing.

an excellent tool..Yes, essential for proposals...yes,compulsory for writing a story on a writers forum. I say NO.


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## ppsage (Jun 10, 2014)

It may not be all that mute.


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## Bishop (Jun 10, 2014)

Ethan said:


> an excellent tool..Yes, essential for proposals...yes,compulsory for writing a story on a writers forum. I say NO.



See, I disagree. I wouldn't take a story on any forum nearly as seriously if it was riddled with errors. In fact, it would ruin the story for many readers, methinks. It just tells me that writer won't take the time to master the craft or read their own work before posting it.


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## Kyle R (Jun 10, 2014)

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." — Aristotle


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## Terry D (Jun 10, 2014)

Ethan said:


> Please read and follow the discussion! this is diverging from the original premis.
> I acknowledge that SPAG is important for an aspiring writer to have their work 'read, accepted, possibly forwarded from a slush pile.,etc.etc.,etc.
> Now that we have dealt with this, the original question was regarding rules of writing. Rules of Grammar and rules of spelling are mute points. The story is the most important thing and all the rest can be 'added,corrected,adapted,changed.
> the discussion is NOT whether Spag is important IF YOU ARE SUBMITTING YOUR WORK TO A PUBLISHERS OR AGENT!'Somehow this has become a discussion on whether submitted work should be as grammatically correct as it can be.
> ...



I'd say it's just as important when presenting work to a group made up predominantly of people working to improve their skills. No one has said that proper SPaG is the "be all and end all" of writing. Only that it is fundamental and cannot be left for others to clean up later as you stated in your first post on the subject.


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## T.S.Bowman (Jun 10, 2014)

Ethan said:


> Aoccdrnig to rscheearch by the Lngiusiitc Dptanmeret at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.



So what? What difference is this going to make in a publisher's mind when there are literally _thousands _of manuscripts coming in every couple of months, most of them by people who think they have a "great idea" and haven't bothered to make sure the SPaG is correct? Anything written sloppily is going to be rejected. Anything that isn't professional in _every_ aspect of it's presentation is going to be rejected out of hand.



> Great books are weighed and measured by their style and matter, and not the trimmings and shadings of their grammar.
> (Mark Twain; Speech at the Annual Reunion of the Army and Navy Club of Connecticut, April 1887)
> 
> When a thought takes one’s breath away, a grammar lesson seems an impertinence.” ~ Thomas W. Higginson
> ...



I see that the first quote is from Mark Twain in *1887*.

I would like you to do a little research into the quotes you provided, since it appears that is what you are going to be using as your excuse for being sloppy, and tell us all the years each of those quotes occurred. 

I would be willing to bet that not one of them has been said in the last 20 years or so. The competition to get published is more fierce now than it has ever been. It's a completely different world than it was in Twain's time. What worked back then simply does not work in the modern age. Perhaps, back in Twain's day, or even Benchley's, a publishing company might have had the patience to fix a story that had grammatical issues if the story was good enough. That simply doesn't happen now. Publishing companies are very interested in what is going to make them money. The more they have to spend to fix a book, the less likely they are going to be willing to do so.


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## T.S.Bowman (Jun 10, 2014)

Morkonan said:


> Imagine a singer that mumbled incoherently,



Bad example, Mork. The "Grunge Era" was chock full of them.


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## T.S.Bowman (Jun 10, 2014)

ppsage said:


> It may not be all that mute.



I'm pretty sure the point was made. LOL


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## T.S.Bowman (Jun 10, 2014)

Bishop said:


> See, I disagree. I wouldn't take a story on any forum nearly as seriously if it was riddled with errors. In fact, it would ruin the story for many readers, methinks. It just tells me that writer won't take the time to master the craft or read their own work before posting it.



+1 This^

Think about some of the reasons there is such a negative view of self publishing/vanity press. An awful lot of the stuff done via those outlets is sub par as far as spelling, grammar...hell even _story_. But the writer thinks he/she had the next great vampire/werewolf/magic school/whatever story that just HAD to be put into book form and damn the critics who think a great story has to be grammatically correct!!

I'm sorry, but if I see more than one or two grammatical errors within the first few chapters of a book, I will, and have, immediately put it down.  I don't care how good the story is.


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## EmmaSohan (Jun 10, 2014)

Someone posted a short piece at this forum, and the first sentence told us what was going to happen. For me, it undermined the possibility of suspense, in a piece that had gut-wrenching possibilities of suspense. It wasn't how I would have written the piece. I have the rule not to do this, I follow the rule, and it took me a long time to figure out.

Maybe other people are different. Maybe readers like to be told what's going to happen. Maybe it's just a matter of style. I don't want to say anything if that's true. No one posts a piece just to find out how I would rewrite it.

Or maybe there's some guideline or principle or rule that the author shouldn't tell the reader what is going to happen. If that was true, I would have felt more comfortable commenting. I think I would phrase it as something to try, not as a rule or principle. But if it really is a rule (or guideline or whatever you want to call it), maybe I could have saved that person a lot of time.

So maybe it's my naivete to think think there are rules, but if there are, we should find them


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## garza (Jun 10, 2014)

You are chasing a phantom. When you get beyond the mechanics, the rules of writing are wisps of smoke that disappear when touched. Every writer who has ever lived has written a bit differently from every other writer. Writers make up the rules as they go along, whether they are conscious of doing so or not. Young writers listen to advice or follow examples set by others, but without fail will fiddle with what they've read and heard to suit themselves and in doing so create another set of 'rules'.. 

Read Faulkner's 'Barn Burning'. Then read Hemingway's 'A Clean, Well-Lighted Place'. Do you believe that an identical set of rules was followed by Faulkner and Hemingway?


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## Kyle R (Jun 11, 2014)

EmmaSohan said:


> [...] Or maybe there's some guideline or principle or rule that the author shouldn't tell the reader what is going to happen. If that was true, I would have felt more comfortable commenting. I think I would phrase it as something to try, not as a rule or principle. But if it really is a rule (or guideline or whatever you want to call it), maybe I could have saved that person a lot of time. [...]



There is a "rule" (more like a "hotly debated maxim", actually) that deals with exactly that. 

It's: _Show, don't tell._ :encouragement:


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## shadowwalker (Jun 11, 2014)

I used to beta a lot. Why did I finally quit? Because I was getting story after story where the writer couldn't even be bothered with using a spellcheck. Their grammar made most sentences incomprehensible. And these were not writers going for publication - these were writers of fanfic. I got sick and tired of people thinking that these things didn't matter because it was "just fanfic" or "just on a forum". Why should I waste my time wading through a bunch of misspellings and crap grammar to find this so-called masterful storytelling? If you don't respect your own work enough to put some effort into it, at least show some respect for the people you think should read it.


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## Greimour (Jun 11, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> I used to beta a lot. Why did I finally quit? Because I was getting story after story where the writer couldn't even be bothered with using a spellcheck. Their grammar made most sentences incomprehensible. And these were not writers going for publication - these were writers of fanfic. I got sick and tired of people thinking that these things didn't matter because it was "just fanfic" or "just on a forum". Why should I waste my time wading through a bunch of misspellings and crap grammar to find this so-called masterful storytelling? If you don't respect your own work enough to put some effort into it, at least show some respect for the people you think should read it.



+1

I don't mind reading through a hard time of terrible spellings and bad grammar. I will point out all the mistakes I notice and openly state that I am not perfect with it myself so some things may need to be checked over again by another person. I will still take the time to do it though if I believe it will benefit the writer.

However. After spending hours detailing a full chapter of errors - I told the person I will only continue the other chapters after they have been corrected in at least the ways I had listed. I was not willing to do the same thing for fourteen chapters or more.

The same writer then told me: "Yeah, it's a first draft. I knew there were a lot of mistakes, I just couldn't be bothered fixing it. I did start to fix one of my chapters but I got fed up. [example of his edit posted]"

The example came from a future chapter and it was all written close to perfect. I was extremely annoyed.


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## Jeko (Jun 11, 2014)

> Rules of Grammar and rules of spelling are mute points. The story is the most important thing and all the rest can be 'added,corrected,adapted,changed.



I follow this when drafting. But the moment you want to present your story to someone, SPaG becomes essential.

Take the AQA's Creative Writing A Level, which I have taken; they mark you on two things, with equal weighting. One is creativity. The other is _control_. So you can tell a fantastic story with the worst SPaG in history, and if they can somehow unpick it you can get half the marks. The same goes for if your communication is flawless and advanced but the story is pathetic; half the marks.

No, SPaG is not the be all and end all of writing. But neither is the story. Ultimately, writing is communication, so the two things that are most important are _what _you communicate and _how _you communicate it; and that just about covers everything.


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## Tyler Danann (Jun 11, 2014)

Terry D said:


> This attitude shows a lack of understanding of publishing. Editors reading unsolicited manuscripts are not looking for ‘developmental projects’ and have no time to teach a writer how to spell, punctuate, or construct a sentence properly. Correcting SPaG issues is not their job. Their job is to choose material for publication from a massive pile of (mostly) junk. They look for easy ways to sort for the ‘good stuff’: Handwritten ms? Reject. Not following submission guidelines? Reject. Improper manuscript format? Reject. Sloppy, unprofessional SPaG? Reject.
> 
> Once an editor has junked the easy stuff, then she can start looking for the gems in what’s left knowing full well that many good, well presented stories will still end up rejected because there’s just not room for all of the well written stuff that comes in. So, no, a great idea isn’t going to sell your story without a solid, professional presentation. Writing well is the job of the writer. If you ask an editor to do the fundamental work for you, you are not going to find any takers.



I don't know about that entirely, some works that are accepted are pretty sloppy to start with but if the editor sees a gem he/she will accept it and make changes.


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## shadowwalker (Jun 11, 2014)

Tyler Danann said:


> I don't know about that entirely, some works that are accepted are pretty sloppy to start with but if the editor sees a gem he/she will accept it and make changes.



Examples? And how often does this actually happen?


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## J.T. Chris (Jun 11, 2014)

Tyler Danann said:


> I don't know about that entirely, some works that are accepted are pretty sloppy to start with but if the editor sees a gem he/she will accept it and make changes.



That is not how the publishing industry works.


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## BeastlyBeast (Jun 11, 2014)

Okay, I'm sorry, but I'd like to veer back on the topic at hand. This thread has taken so many turns, you might as well call it a country road. Rules of writing -> SPaG -> Publishing... let's go back to the rules of writing. I guess, the actual question has been answered, though. So I'm not really sure where it can go at this point, but we'll see. Are there any golden rules of writing and do you follow them?


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## garza (Jun 11, 2014)

Sorry, BeastlyBeast, you posted while I was writing. 

Two golden rules. Get it right, and file it on time. That's for non-fiction. For fiction, have a good story well written. 

Now, here is what I was writing:

That is not at all how the publishing industry works. Send in sloppy work and your rejection slip will be spelled and punctuated correctly and will be grammatically correct.

And I do not agree that there should be a lower expectation for stories posted here. The minimum legal age for joining is 13. A 13-year-old who has not missed too many days of school over the years ought to have the ability to write a story free of SPaG errors, and with that fence already jumped, should already be working on writing technique. I sold my first story to the Gulfport/Biloxi Daily Herald in September of 1954 about two weeks after my 14th birthday. So assuming that everyone here is at least 13 and has had at least the amount of eduction that age would imply, then there is no reason to say that the standards for SPaG correctness should be lower for posting here than they would be for submission to a publisher.

If a person has not had the requisite amount of education, or is someone for whom English is a second language, there is no excuse. The resources for self-education in language skills are everywhere. I'm looking now at a text book from Holt, Rinehart, and Winston. It's a third-form text called _English Writing and Skills_ and it includes a comprehensive review of grammar and usage. The book cost me five Belize dollars at a second-hand shop. That's 2.50 in U.S. money. Any adult with basic English reading skills, some self discipline, and a real desire to learn could bring themselves up to speed with this book and be capable of writing sentences, paragraphs, essays, and stories free of SPaG errors. And of course the resources on the Internet, from infant one through graduate level, are seemingly infinite.

I do agree that the discussion about SPaG ought to be concluded, but with the understanding that when a person offers a piece of writing anywhere for others to read,  that writing ought to be the best that person is capable of producing, and that should include correct spelling, punctuation, grammar, and usage.


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## Terry D (Jun 11, 2014)

BeastlyBeast said:


> Okay, I'm sorry, but I'd like to veer back on the topic at hand. This thread has taken so many turns, you might as well call it a country road. Rules of writing -> SPaG -> Publishing... let's go back to the rules of writing. I guess, the actual question has been answered, though. So I'm not really sure where it can go at this point, but we'll see. Are there any golden rules of writing and do you follow them?



The discussion of SPaG wasn't off-topic at all. The only 'textbook' rules you will find are the ones regarding Spelling, Punctuation, and Grammar, so that would seem to be on-point. There are a multitude of 'rules' which are frequently discussed--and just as frequently broken--but none are more than guidelines. A partial list of those would include: show don't tell, never start a story with a description of the weather, never start a story with a character waking up, never start with a dream sequence, start with action, keep the voice consistent, keep tense consistent, and many more.


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## Ethan (Jun 11, 2014)

garza said:


> .And I do not agree that there should be a lower expectation for stories posted here. The minimum legal age for joining is 13. A 13-year-old who has not missed too many days of school over the years ought to have the ability to write a story free of SPaG errors, and with that fence already jumped, should already be working on writing technique.



What world are you living in?

If a person has not had the requisite amount of education, or is someone for whom English is a second language, there is no excuse.
I assume you meant there would be an excuse?
 
when a person offers a piece of writing anywhere for others to read, that writing ought to be the best that person is capable of producing, and that should include correct spelling, punctuation, grammar, and usage.
Here you directly contradict yourself, unless you mean that their best, unless perfect, should not be posted. 
If so ; why post on a forum at all, just send it straight to the publisher.

Basically what i take from this is, if anybody attempts writing and does not come up to your perceived standard, they should not A: write on a forum
                                                                                                                                                                                                           B: Attempt to write anything until they                                                                                                                                                                                                                       have achieved your standard 
                                                                                                                                                                                                           C:  Dare to blot ther copybook and                                                                                                                                                                                                                             receive your disdain
 How many writers on this forum write SPAG free? In fact, How many writers write Spag free? What is an Editor for? What are Forums for?


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## J.T. Chris (Jun 11, 2014)

> What is an Editor for?



Acquisitions. 



> What are Forums for?



Procrastination. And I speak for myself here too.

In all honesty though, critique and workshopping are not about correcting grammar. I've seen one too many amateurs post stories up on these forums for people to correct their SPAG and nothing more. That's incredibly lazy. Critique is never about SPAG. I've taken dozens of workshops over the past few years and in not ONE of them did we dedicate any discussion to SPAG. In fact, if we turned in work with SPAG errors our mentors would simply chastise us in class because we should know better than that. Turning in work riddled with SPAG errors is amateur and shows a complete lack of polish. If I turned in sub-par work to an editor who accepted it I would be very skeptical of that publication's notoriety and prestige. Rushing off work before polish lacks professionalism, especially if you expect the editor to do all the work for you--that's just being rude.


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## Ethan (Jun 11, 2014)

I don't think anybody expects an editor to do all the work, but his job is to edit.
Editor; A person who is in charge of and determines the final content of a newspaper, magazine, or multi-author book: O.E.D., however we digress, for me the point and joy of a forum is a place to try new things, listen and learn, read and absorb, share and help. There are programmes which will sort out many SPAG problems even grammar problems, however, there are people out there with very basic Word processers, some even are using Typewriters, yes Typewriters, no Spag or thesaurus at the stroke of a key. I can't help but wonder at the geniuses
who post here and evidently are so proficient at their craft the do not need NOR USE these tools. By the way, a Spell checker/Grammar checker is an AUTOMATED EDITOR!


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## Terry D (Jun 11, 2014)

Ethan said:


> I can't help but wonder at the geniuses
> who post here and evidently are so proficient at their craft the do not need NOR USE these tools. By the way, a Spell checker/Grammar checker is an AUTOMATED EDITOR!



The whole point is that these tools _do_ exist, and most people serious about the craft, _do _use them and don't expect someone else do the work for them. "_Spag, etc can be sorted out by those who have a talent for such" _​is not realistic and is, in fact, bad advice.


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## J.T. Chris (Jun 11, 2014)

Ethan said:


> I don't think anybody expects an editor to do all the work, but his job is to edit.
> Editor; A person who is in charge of and determines the final content of a newspaper, magazine, or multi-author book: O.E.D., however we digress, for me the point and joy of a forum is a place to try new things, listen and learn, read and absorb, share and help. There are programmes which will sort out many SPAG problems even grammar problems, however, there are people out there with very basic Word processers, some even are using Typewriters, yes Typewriters, no Spag or thesaurus at the stroke of a key. I can't help but wonder at the geniuses
> who post here and evidently are so proficient at their craft the do not need NOR USE these tools. By the way, a Spell checker/Grammar checker is an AUTOMATED EDITOR!



An editor's job is not to copyedit grammatically-incompetent work. That's the job of a writer. A good editor knows what their readers like and it's their job to find the best content for their publication. A good editor will request revisions to stories that they already want to accept, not to stories that "show promise, despite glaring errors." I've never had an editor request a revision on a poor story. They sent rejections instead. I have had editors however request revisions on stories they would accept either way, but offered suggestions for making an already good story better, not a poor story publishable. Writers and editors work together. An editor is not a copyeditor. They are different.

I'm not saying you need to be perfect at mechanics, but an elementary proficiency of grammar at least is important, because it's not an editor's job to teach you these things. The poor people are busy enough as it is. You should at least know the difference between a comma and a period and an independent clause vs. a dependent one--stuff I have successfully taught to remedial writing and ESL students. This stuff can be learned.


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## Jeko (Jun 11, 2014)

I've heard that instead of teaching children how to spell, in some schools in America they simply teach them to see a red line, right-click and choose the right option.

Is that what we should be doing, Ethan?


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## garza (Jun 11, 2014)

Ethan - They are not my standards. The standards are those that are accepted by the writing community. 

Yes, a crafts person always should strive to offer their best work for others to see. Always, whether in a writing forum such as this, writing an essay in first form language arts, or submitting a manuscript to a publisher. 

I wrote for newspapers, magazines, radio, and television for donkey's years beginning in the mid fifties using a typewriter. I worked with editors, publishers, directors, and producers who demanded quality writing finished on time without excuses and without the need for correcting errors. 

Today I use a computer with Notepad - no spell check, no grammar check. It's the electronic equivalent of a typewriter. No one needs to be a genius to be sufficiently proficient at the craft of writing to to be able to produce clean copy without the use of such alleged tools. I do have a way to check my spelling, however. It's called a dictionary. I have ways of answering any questions about grammar. They are called grammar books. I have ways of being certain I'm using a word correctly. They are called usage manuals. No genius needed, only the willingness to take the time and spend the energy to check references. Even a child can do it. I know that from my own experience. 

So, no, I see no excuse for sloppy writing.

You mention the thesaurus. That's an invention of the devil. It yields up  sour fruit. The only legitimate use for a thesaurus is as a door stop,  provided it's heavy enough. When you are tempted to use a thesaurus instead of digging through your own  vocabulary for the right word, stop and remember what Twain said, and consider that the thesaurus is likely to give you almost, but not quite, the right word.


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## T.S.Bowman (Jun 11, 2014)

Here is a problem with the use of the spell check.

Just the other day,I saw one post with the use of the word "sense" when the proper word should have been "since". Spell check is not going to catch that. An editor, however, WILL catch that. That does not mean that said editor will just say, "Alright. No big deal. There can't have been more than 50 or 60 of those like that. We'll fix it later."

More likely, that editor is going to see that something so simple not being fixed even before the writing was submitted as nothing more than laziness on the part of the writer. They would most likely then make the assumption that, along with that simple misuse, there will be many more like it.


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## shadowwalker (Jun 12, 2014)

I don't have spell checker or thesaurus in my WP software. It's a glorified typewriter. If I don't know how to spell a word - wait for it - I look it up in a dictionary! 

I think this despair if one doesn't have spell checker and other devices is sad. Along the lines of "Why should I learn math? I have a calculator!". We have brains. We can choose to use them or let others do our thinking for us. Guess who wins.


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## T.S.Bowman (Jun 12, 2014)

No matter where I work, I wind up being the guy that everyone comes to when they are looking for a word or need something spelled.

I occasionally break out my Thesaurus when I am looking for the right word to use, but it's rare that I either don't know or can't figure out the spelling of a word.

Unless, of course, it's one of those words that you have used a hundred times and then, suddenly, on the one hundred and first use, the spelling just seems off. You know it's right, but it just doesn't LOOK right.


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## Blade (Jun 12, 2014)

garza said:


> You mention the thesaurus. That's an invention of the devil. It yields up  sour fruit. The only legitimate use for a thesaurus is as a door stop,  provided it's heavy enough. When you are tempted to use a thesaurus instead of digging through your own  vocabulary for the right word, stop and remember what Twain said, and consider that the thesaurus is likely to give you almost, but not quite, the right word.



Thanks for saying that.:icon_colors: I always found that the thesaurus overwhelmed and confused me.:neglected:


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## Ethan (Jun 12, 2014)

Despite my best efforts it seems I cannot seem to explain my point. Perhaps there are kneejerk reaction to each new post without reference to the entire discussion.
Let me try again... one last time

1. SPAG is important (however you get there, whether it be dictionary or spell checker)
2. Do not worry about this too much, it is not the be all and end all of writing, do not be discouraged by your failings, you are on a forum (there will be people here who can help, Correct errors, suggest alternatives) EDIT
3. Those who deem it below themselves to 'help, comment, offer critique on ALL aspects of proffered work should ask themselves why they are on a forum.

Incidently, I too used a typewriter for over forty years and dictionaries and Roget's Thersaurus, however, unlike some, at thirteen I had never seen a typewriter, never mind a W.P. but that does not mean I am a better writer because of this. Posting ones work on a forum is nerve wracking enough, leaving oneself open for all and any criticism, There should be allowance made for those who are just begining to learn the craft.
 IN MY  BOOK, SPAG errors are a minor irritation on a forum, and I now realise that there are many who disagree, BUT IF SHOWN, these can be easily corrected.

QuoteCadence: "I've heard that instead of teaching children how to spell, in some schools in America they simply teach them to see a red line, right-click and choose the right option."

Is that what we should be doing, Ethan?
Cadence; I'm sorry i have no idea what you mean here, what does the red line signify? Do they offer several spelling options and the pupil has to select the correct one?


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## Kevin (Jun 12, 2014)

Spellchecker teaches. Having to correct the red squigglies (there's one) every time forces me to stop and click on the right spelling. Eventually, I learn the word.


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## Ethan (Jun 12, 2014)

Kevin said:


> Spellchecker teaches. Having to correct the red squigglies (there's one) every time forces me to stop and click on the right spelling. Eventually, I learn the word.



AAHHH! I understand now. Thanks Kevin.
In my day the teacher drew a line through the misspelling and wrote the correction above it. I suppose this is just technological progression.


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## Kevin (Jun 12, 2014)

> the teacher drew a line through the misspelling and wrote the correction above it.


Today, such insistence is frowned upon as it might hurt the child's feelings. The 3 r's ( to use an archaism you might understand) are treated more as horseshoes (the game).  Thesauraus are also frowned upon. Again, a collection of stuffiness designed only to hurt by pointing out deficientcies. By the way, my sentence here are example of close enough and I feel great about myself. 

P.S.- your 1, 2, & 3 seem pretty clear. Thank you.


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## garza (Jun 12, 2014)

In my day the teacher wrote SP above the word and we were required to consult a dictionary and make the correction ourselves. 

I do more than frown upon the thesaurus. I would declare the manufacture, distribution, and/or sale of the thesaurus a felony with a minimum sentence of five years in the nick. Ten if a child were involved.

Think about it. If a person is encouraged to read widely and often, that person will soon possess a vocabulary so abundantly rich that the right word will fall naturally onto the page. The person who writes with a thesaurus instead of a dictionary and usage manual within reach is usually easy to spot. Every less familiar word will miss the mark. Perhaps not by much, but the words picked from the thesaurus will miss by enough to take the sting out of whatever the writer means to say. 

Adults who have not been encouraged to read as children must take that responsibility upon their own shoulders and then ensure that their own children are not similarly denied.


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## shadowwalker (Jun 12, 2014)

I think a lot of people, if not most, are willing to overlook the occasional misspelled word or grammatical lapse. We're all human, after all. But when I see writing/posts where people can't even capitalize, insert periods, or have obvious typos all over the place, it tells me they just can't be bothered. If they can't be bothered to check these very simple things, why should I be bothered to try and "translate" it? Not to mention the fact that I start to wonder if they're just lazy or if they truly are _that _ignorant. If the latter, no forum can correct that.


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## voltigeur (Jun 12, 2014)

I can forgive the gaff in a forum post. Especially when the forum doesn't provide spell checker and the posters are rapid firing back and forth. 

I see it like a recruiter said one time. If you are pressured to get a cover letter out on the fly something that the spell checker didn't catch is understandable. Errors on the resume absolutly not! 

I always vet my stuff before I hand it to a reader.


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## garza (Jun 12, 2014)

Everyone wants training wheels. Such a pity.


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## T.S.Bowman (Jun 12, 2014)

garza said:


> I do more than frown upon the thesaurus. I would declare the manufacture, distribution, and/or sale of the thesaurus a felony with a minimum sentence of five years in the nick. Ten if a child were involved.
> 
> Think about it. If a person is encouraged to read widely and often, that person will soon possess a vocabulary so abundantly rich that the right word will fall naturally onto the page. The person who writes with a thesaurus instead of a dictionary and usage manual within reach is usually easy to spot. Every less familiar word will miss the mark. Perhaps not by much, but the words picked from the thesaurus will miss by enough to take the sting out of whatever the writer means to say.



Garza, I know this is simply your opinion, but I call B.S.

I have read hundreds upon hundreds of books during my 44 years on this Earth and, despite that, I still find myself (not very often, mind you) using my thesaurus. Sometimes, the word I am looking for escapes me until I go looking for it.

As far as using it taking the "sting" out of what I meant...I would challenge you to read all 80k+ words that I have written in my novel and find the place(s) where I have used the thesaurus to get the word I was looking for. 

So,even though it may be your opinion that the thesaurus is evil, you are inadvertently (giving you the benefit of the doubt) insulting my, and many other writer's, intelligence by stating that using one simply means that our vocabulary isn't large enough.


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## BeastlyBeast (Jun 12, 2014)

I think that using a thesaurus or dictionary to find the word you want is only bad if you're just trying to use an extremely fancy word to replace a much more simpler one. For example, I wouldn't call someone out for using the thesaurus to find a very specific word that conveys a very specific meaning, a synonymless or near-synonymless word... However, I would say using the thesaurus is bad, if one looked for a word like 'woebegone' or 'despondent' to replace the word 'sad' just to spice up their sentence.


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## T.S.Bowman (Jun 12, 2014)

BeastlyBeast said:


> I think that using a thesaurus or dictionary to find the word you want is only bad if you're just trying to use an extremely fancy word to replace a much more simpler one. For example, I wouldn't call someone out for using the thesaurus to find a very specific word that conveys a very specific meaning, a synonymless or near-synonymless word... However, I would say using the thesaurus is bad, if one looked for a word like 'woebegone' or 'despondent' to replace the word 'sad' just to spice up their sentence.



I would tend to agree with that. I can't stand it when I am reading a book and have to look in the dictionary every couple of chapters because the writer is fond of two dollar words.


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## Jeko (Jun 12, 2014)

> So,even though it may be your opinion that the thesaurus is evil, you are inadvertently (giving you the benefit of the doubt) insulting my, and many other writer's, intelligence by stating that using one simply means that our vocabulary isn't large enough.



I think he's saying that your vocabulary _is _large enough, and your 'natural' vocabulary is better than words you get from a thesaurus, because they're the words you're familiar with. I agree on that point; I have never used a thesaurus. The most I do is google a word I'm unsure of to check that it's the word I mean.


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## garza (Jun 12, 2014)

Thank you Cadence. You read me aright.

T.S., having read many of your posts, my suspicion is that if you never again had access to a thesaurus, you would have no trouble finding the right word. Put yours away for a while, and I'll wager you'll have no problem putting together the words you need to use to say what you want to say.

Another thought. You may even find that using only the words you are accustomed to using, your writing will be stronger.


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## Kevin (Jun 12, 2014)

Not sure what you are intimidating, though if I were a physic I should indubitably reduce.


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## garza (Jun 12, 2014)

Aha! An authentic thesaurian!


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## stormageddon (Jun 12, 2014)

Interesting stuff on thesauri, Garza. I have to use them a lot, because I have a learning difficulty that means I often struggle to find the words I'm looking for, even when I know them. That aside, I see the logic in what you're saying, except in the case of new writers - I built most of my vocabulary through excessive thesaurus usage in my first couple of years of "serious" writing.

I agree that sometimes it's obvious when a writer has used a thesaurus to find a fancy new word. However, if the writer goes on to look at a few example sentences to ensure they haven't misinterpreted it's usage, you can't tell. The problem only arises when people are lazy in their thesaurus usage.



T.S.Bowman said:


> I can't stand it when I am reading a book and have to look in the dictionary every couple of chapters because the writer is fond of two dollar words.


I'm the exact opposite; if I don't have to look up at least one word per chapter, I feel very shortchanged. I am quickly bored by writing that doesn't challenge me as a reader, and consequently find that I take very little pleasure in reading a lot of modern works v.v doesn't matter how good the story itself is - if it isn't pretentious, it isn't for me.


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## T.S.Bowman (Jun 13, 2014)

garza said:


> Thank you Cadence. You read me aright.
> 
> T.S., having read many of your posts, my suspicion is that if you never again had access to a thesaurus, you would have no trouble finding the right word. Put yours away for a while, and I'll wager you'll have no problem putting together the words you need to use to say what you want to say.
> 
> Another thought. You may even find that using only the words you are accustomed to using, your writing will be stronger.



My apologies for the misunderstanding on my part, sir.  I definitely appreciate the kind words.

For the record, I rarely use the thesaurus. Like I said, though, there are times when the word I am looking for is right "on the tip of my tongue". I'll know what letter the word starts with, so if it takes too long to get it, I'll go digging for it. I realize that there are some people who may wind up using it as a "crutch" rather than rely on their own vocabulary. 

@Cadence - I have used Google a few times to get a definition when I want to make sure I am using a word correctly as well.


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## T.S.Bowman (Jun 13, 2014)

stormageddon said:


> I'm the exact opposite; if I don't have to look up at least one word per chapter, I feel very shortchanged. I am quickly bored by writing that doesn't challenge me as a reader, and consequently find that I take very little pleasure in reading a lot of modern works v.v doesn't matter how good the story itself is - if it isn't pretentious, it isn't for me.



*makes mental note to not ask storm for a review*

I don't mind being challenged as a reader. But it can kill the flow of a story if I'm forced to stop frequently to look something up. 

My vocabulary is decent to good. It's not often that I run into words that I really don't know or haven't read somewhere before. That's why I get turned off by having to look something up more than a couple of times. That tells me that the author may have been trying too hard to use two dollar words when a dollar fifty word would have sufficed.


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## shadowwalker (Jun 13, 2014)

I use a thesaurus when the word I want (and know) is right on the tip of my tongue - but my tongue happens to be numb at the time. I actually can't remember the last time I used it though - it's been 3-4 years, at least. Not sure if my brain's getting sharper or my vocabulary smaller... :witless:


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## Terry D (Jun 13, 2014)

A thesaurus is like a gun; it's not evil in and of itself, the evil comes from how you use it.


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## popsprocket (Jun 13, 2014)

Terry D said:


> A thesaurus is like a gun; it's not evil in and of itself, the evil comes from how you use it.



So _that's_ why proofing my (older) sister's adjective-laden high school essays always felt like shooting myself in the face...


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## Pluralized (Jun 13, 2014)

I like to use the words that have entrenched themselves in my brain as common-usage words, even if they're a bit beyond traditional. I don't have a "moderan" vocabulary (for those uninitiated please do a search). 

When it comes to rules, I have gained much from paying attention to how things are done by the masters. Despite all the 'thriller' writers, who probably would cause Michael Jackson to spin in his grave, or the other 'action-oriented' jamokes, I suggest learning at least the basics of how to write dialogue, how not to open your story with weather/waking up/doing something boring, and focus on characterization. That's the main thing I think we all need to take away from this whole debate over 'rules' -- characters drive it all. 

By the way, forum-folk -- "Just sit down, shut up, and write -- that is not working for everybody. Congrats if your internal prose engine is firing on ten cylinders, day in and day out, but most people aren't able to write novels like that. I think if our Forums are supposed to function as intended, we need to actually offer advice. My first bit of advice -- read books. Write like your favorite authors. Forget what the haters say.

Rules stick in my mind as I write stuff. Sometimes I do good, sometimes bad. But I always try to avoid falling in the holes I've fallen in before, and I think that's important.


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## caters (Jun 13, 2014)

KyleColorado said:


> Even spag (spelling and grammar) can be broken or ignored for effect.
> 
> The following is the opening line of a professionally published story, from a career writer:
> 
> ...



SPAG means Spelling 
                 Punctuation
                 And
                 Grammar


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## garza (Jun 13, 2014)

It's not SPAG,, it's SPaG, and Kyle was taking a shortcut around punctuation, possibly because we don't all follow the same punctuation style. We've been known to come to blows over whether, in a given instance, a full stop should be placed before or after a closing inverted comma.


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## Jeko (Jun 13, 2014)

> A thesaurus is like a gun; it's not evil in and of itself, the evil comes from how you use it.



Makes sense; I can't use a gun either.


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## Kevin (Jun 13, 2014)

> despair if one doesn't have spell checker and other devices is sad


 I don't despair, but I was really stoked when spellcheck started 'checking' me. I was like "you mean I spelled that wrong?" I hadn't realized. It made me stop and pay attention. 





> Everyone wants training wheels. Such a pity.


 It's teaching by rote. I make the same mistake over and over, and it corrects me (actually, it asks that I correct myself) every time. Eventually, I get it. 'Training wheels', that's exactly what I called it, but unlike actual training wheels, you don't flip every time you turn. My spelling has accelerated. 

And the on-line thesaurus, the one where it shows a diagram--the word in the center, surrounded by all the related words? Very cool. It illustrates connections I hadn't even thought of. 
...
The use of fancified alternates to those 'naturally' located in ones melon is a noob mistake.


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## Gofa (Jun 15, 2014)

Perhaps this relates here
in learning Tai Chi you are taught the form. This form depending upon teachers can be very strictly adhered to. The form is a set of movements executed with millimetres for all parts of the body. 
The thing that completes your knowledge is losing the form as it was only to teach you it was not Tai Chi itself.
To me rules of writing are good if they make to you a better story teller. I have my doubts about wanting to be a better writer


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## Sam (Jun 16, 2014)

Pluralized said:


> I like to use the words that have entrenched themselves in my brain as common-usage words, even if they're a bit beyond traditional. I don't have a "moderan" vocabulary (for those uninitiated please do a search).
> 
> When it comes to rules, I have gained much from paying attention to how things are done by the masters. Despite all the 'thriller' writers, who probably would cause Michael Jackson to spin in his grave, or the other 'action-oriented' jamokes, I suggest learning at least the basics of how to write dialogue, how not to open your story with weather/waking up/doing something boring, and focus on characterization. That's the main thing I think we all need to take away from this whole debate over 'rules' -- characters drive it all.



I'm not sure what you mean by "despite all the 'thriller' writers", but the notion that characters have to drive everything is, in my opinion, spurious. Of course you need characters to have a story, but it can easily be driven by plot as much as characterisation. I wouldn't advise new writers to focus solely on one aspect of storytelling. You call have all the cast you want, but if you don't have a plot, you don't have a story. 



> By the way, forum-folk -- "Just sit down, shut up, and write -- that is not working for everybody. Congrats if your internal prose engine is firing on ten cylinders, day in and day out, but most people aren't able to write novels like that. I think if our Forums are supposed to function as intended, we need to actually offer advice. My first bit of advice -- read books. Write like your favorite authors. Forget what the haters say.



Just because I say "shut up and write" doesn't mean I -- or anyone else who says it -- am a hater. Maybe that's not what you meant, but the only reason I advocate "shut up and write" is because it's an inevitability. You can discuss your problems for months, but at some point (if you want to be a writer) you have to sit down, shut up, and write. No one will do it for you.


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## InspektorF (Jun 16, 2014)

BeastlyBeast said:


> I was always intrigued by the 'rules of writing.' Many writers will say that writing is a very imaginative process, and with that comes no rules. Others, though will say that there are lots of rules and guidelines with writing. Perhaps some of the most common are 'kill your babies' and 'show don't tell.' My question to you is, how often do you find yourself following these so-called rules? Do you try to follow all of them, just the "golden ones," or do you not follow any at all? I personally think it's best to follow the more important, most commonly said ones, like the two I had mentioned. There are certainly guidelines that will make your story much better in the long run, if you choose to follow them, or so I believe. However, I believe the super-specific ones are less important. When a writer says the most important thing is to never use big words, always plot, or always carry a notebook around when you write, I don't really follow them, because I believe they are very subjective and those results will vary from writer to writer. One writer may need to use bigger words in his style, whereas others may not. One writer may feel a notebook can help, while even Stephen King believes it "immortalizes bad ideas." Some of the most known authors of today, such as Stephen King, and George R.R Martin don't even plot. George said one of the reasons his books take so long is because he doesn't plot very much, and he's always trying to figure out what happens next. What about you?



I've given up reading books on telling one how you're supposed to write.  I've come to see them as just being another person saying, "This is the way you have to do it!  Do it this way and you'll be able to write a novel!"  I've since learned that writing is a lot like raising a child.  There is more than one way to accomplish raising a child to become a responsible, productive adult and there is more than one way to write a good novel.  Different roads for different folks.  (The only thing that doesn't really change are perhaps rules of grammar, which I find I need to work on.)

As for plotting out my work, I think it would go smoother if I had something to guide me but often I am a seat of the pants kind of gal.


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## Nippon Devil (Jun 16, 2014)

Writing is an art, not a science. There are rules, but there are also exceptions to all of them. I think all writers will find something that sticks with them and works. It's part of getting experience and growing. I write to entertain and things like fame and money don't enter into the equation. I just write to entertain my audience, and that requires few if any rules.


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## Apple Ice (Jun 16, 2014)

There's a novel called 'e' which is entirely emails. It's a good book.


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## Clove (Jun 16, 2014)

Apple Ice said:


> There's a novel called 'e' which is entirely emails. It's a good book.



For a second I thought you were talking about Perec's _A Void_, a novel which does not contain the letter 'e'. It's a pretty good book too.


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## garza (Jun 16, 2014)

Nippon Devil - When you say that '...all writers will find something that sticks with them and works' you are stating in plain words what many people need years to find out for themselves. Every writer, from cub reporter to best-selling novelist, must find and use his own rules. 

Money is always important. Fame is not. Fame won't pay the rent or buy  the groceries. If I'd not been able to make a good living writing,  I'd've gotten a job, as dreadful as that sounds, but one must eat.


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## Mudgeon Ramblings (Jun 16, 2014)

When i was on the job, i use to get letters from this one fella who was trying to sell me filtered water in place of the Spring Water we were using. Anyway it was painfully obvious that he was using a thesaurus and also that he thought he could pick ANY of the synonyms listed for the word he looked up and stick it in its place regardless of context. I am positive he thought he looked real intelligent with this maneuver but his first letter proved to me I was dealing with an idiot.


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## garza (Jun 17, 2014)

In _Garza's Rules for Writing_ I would include this:

*T - Thesaurus - Use of* - A thesaurus is not to be used while in the act of writing. A thesaurus may only be used in conjunction with an etymological dictionary while the writer studies the relationships among similar words. The writer should pick a word for study, look up the definition in the dictionary, paying particular attention to the etymological information supplied. The writer should then repeat the process with each of the words listed as synonyms, being careful to note how each of the words has a different, even if very similar, meaning, and requires a different context if it is to be used properly. This exercise should lead the writer to understand that true synonyms rarely if ever exist, and that replacing one word with another of similar meaning as found in the thesaurus rarely results in correct word usage.


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## Ethan (Jun 17, 2014)

‘THE BELIZE BACKBORE’, A SISTER PUBLICATION OF ‘THE COROZAL TRUMPET’
HEADLINE STORY
BOOKSPILL IN PLACENCIA
At approximately eight thirty this morning a lorry spilled its entire load of Roget’s Thesauruses on the new Placencia Rd. Although Police arrived on the scene within minutes, not a single copy of the books was recovered. One local  journalist, reporting direct from the scene,  said he was 'Astonished, surprised, amazed, astounded, dumbfounded and overwhelmed' at the scenes of looting he had witnessed.:deadhorse:


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## Pandora (Jun 17, 2014)

We certainly can never discount the power of words, even just one word chosen.


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## garza (Jun 17, 2014)

BELMOPAN - 17 July - The Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries today announced the discovery of an enormous dead horse in the Corozal District. A press release issued early today said that the animal appeared to have been dead for some days and was in an advanced state of decomposition. The Ministry release says the animal is of a type unknown to the livestock specialists at Central Farm. 'I don't have the words to describe it,' said a Ministry spokesman.


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## Nippon Devil (Jun 17, 2014)

Garza, I did not mean to imply that writing for money was bad, but that it made it harder to write well. I find that a lot of people try to mimic styles that don't really work for them because they want the wealth and fame that author X had. It is very hard for most people to ignore these urges. If you can write for your audience and also make a lot of money, I think that's great. I certainly don't look down at writers who write for money. But if you're going to let the money decide what you write and add no love to it, you might as well just have a generic job. I'm fortunate in that I do love my job, which is probably why I haven't taken the idea of writing for a living seriously.

And I also agree that my comment will not move any writers closer to "enlightenment". some things the kids just gotta learn on their own.





Onto the current trend of this topic...

Someone needs to tell THE BELIZE BACKBORE that less is more, especially with emotions.


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## J.T. Chris (Jun 17, 2014)

Nippon Devil said:


> But if you're going to let the money decide what you write and add no love to it, you might as well just have a generic job. I'm fortunate in that I do love my job, which is probably why I haven't taken the idea of writing for a living seriously.



I write for money. I have bills to pay.

This really bothers me. So many writers don't understand that they are supposed to be paid for everything they write, and that's why there are all these sharks out there trying to con writers into working for free because they offer things like "exposure," as if that was worth anything. Exposure doesn't pay my phone bill.


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## garza (Jun 17, 2014)

...or pay the rent or buy the groceries. I've written for money from my teens and I don't apologise to anyone about it, not even the _New Yorker_ crowd.

_Especially_ not the _New Yorker_ crowd.


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## Nippon Devil (Jun 17, 2014)

Nobody's asking you to. I was just saying that #1: It's easier FOR ME to write when money isn't involved and #2: It wouldn't be a dream job if I was EXCLUSIVELY writing for money.


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## J.T. Chris (Jun 17, 2014)

Nippon Devil said:


> Nobody's asking you to. I was just saying that #1: It's easier FOR ME to write when money isn't involved and #2: It wouldn't be a dream job if I was EXCLUSIVELY writing for money.



How is exclusively writing for money not a dream job? Sounds pretty good to me.


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## shadowwalker (Jun 18, 2014)

J.T. Chris said:


> How is exclusively writing for money not a dream job? Sounds pretty good to me.



Yeah. Isn't the definition of a dream job getting paid for doing what you love?


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## garza (Jun 18, 2014)

It's always sounded like a dream job to me from when I was a kid. I love to write, to spend time putting words together. To be paid to do something you love doing anyway is my definition of a dream job. Journalism added another layer of pleasure. I'm a Nosey Parker by nature and to be paid to ask the Prime Minister embarrassing questions - well, life can't get much better than that, can it?

Now to keep this wandering thread on track, is there a rule about money and writing? Should a writer write strictly for the love of the craft, or is it permitted to live by writing and not be called a prostitute, as some wannabes hanging around the offices of certain Big Slick magazines have been known to call those of us who write to pay bills?


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## Soturin (Jun 18, 2014)

Yes.

1. Write.
2. Revise.
3. Edit.


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## blazeofglory (Jun 18, 2014)

I do not follow rules and though I have read plenty of things regarding creative writing, dos and don'ts, and including choice of words, sentence structures, plotting, finding themes. I simply love writing and do the writing stuff out of the mere joy of writing them. Of course most like to be bestsellers and famous or rich by writing on global scale but if the success does not come I do not care


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## BeastlyBeast (Jun 18, 2014)

garza said:


> It's always sounded like a dream job to me from when I was a kid. I love to write, to spend time putting words together. To be paid to do something you love doing anyway is my definition of a dream job. Journalism added another layer of pleasure. I'm a Nosey Parker by nature and to be paid to ask the Prime Minister embarrassing questions - well, life can't get much better than that, can it?
> 
> Now to keep this wandering thread on track, is there a rule about money and writing? Should a writer write strictly for the love of the craft, or is it permitted to live by writing and not be called a prostitute, as some wannabes hanging around the offices of certain Big Slick magazines have been known to call those of us who write to pay bills?



Imo, there's nothing wrong with writing for money. In fact, I think most, if not all, authors on bookshelves today do it specifically for that... I think though, that before you do, you need to gain an appreciation for the craft. This is the problem with a lot of authors on shelves and one reason why I don't like reading, no stories really captivate me. Sometimes it's very clear, the difference between a book written for pleasure, and a book written for money. If you're a first-time writer, yet you have the aspiration of writing and selling your first novel and having it become a best seller, or launch you into a writing career, you would be better off writing, revising, editing, and changing your book an innumerable amount of times until it's perfect.


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## garza (Jun 18, 2014)

We're talking about two different tracks with two different kinds of writing here. I have made my living writing non-fiction, beginning as a teen-age cub reporter for two local newspapers. That's what I mean by 'writing for money'.

My interest in writing fiction began a few years ago. Fiction is the kind of writing that most people here are interested in doing. They want to publish and, hopefully, hit the NYT-BS list. Many here have the kind of writing talent that can lead to that list. I don't have that kind of talent, but the writing of fiction does fascinate me. Since I joined here I've tried to learn all I can about writing fiction, and I've discovered how many of the 'rules' that apply to non-fiction can be made to apply equally well to writing fiction.

Now if you all will lift up your eyes to Post 153, you sill see that new member Saturin has boiled out the fat and has reduced all writing rules to three words. There's someone to watch.


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## shadowwalker (Jun 18, 2014)

I think the problem lies in thinking that writing for love and writing for money are mutually exclusive. I started out writing because I love it - but that didn't mean I wasn't exacting and critical and wanting to make it the best writing I could do. Now I'm writing hoping to sell - that also doesn't mean I'm not exacting and critical and wanting to make it the best writing I can do. 

I'll confess. I do get skeptical when I hear the "love of writing, not money" and "writing for myself, not money" and then see those authors with books for sale (not pointing to any particular author), or working to get published. If money is so terrible, their books could (and should) just go up for free on their blog or a display site.


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## J.T. Chris (Jun 18, 2014)

I'm quite emotionally invested in this topic because outside of my day job, I try to make a little extra money off of this whole writing thing. I frequent a ton of freelance writing job boards and most of these companies think that good writing is so easy to come by that a significant investment of a writer's time is only worth a couple bucks. Others don't offer to pay writers anything at all, expecting them to live off of their byline alone. I was recently asked to write a 5000 word short ebook for $70. I make more than that a day at my regular job. When I tried negotiating a better price I never heard back from the guy because there were dozens of other writers willing to work for peanuts.


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## garza (Jun 18, 2014)

When I was 14 the Daily Herald paid me three cents a word for my first stories. At that rate, 5,000 words equals 150 dollars. And consider that the three cents was in 1954 money. Who are these people asking writers to write for chump change? 

Freelance is good because you're not dependent on one source for your income as you would be as a staffer, but you need to establish a reputation for good work on time every time. That may mean taking less than you'd like for a while, but it for sure does not mean taking a penny ha'penny per word. It may also mean you need to get an agent. There are agents who specialise in non-fiction and a good one can keep you too busy to worry about keeping a day job once you convince him you can deliver. 

One tip. If you start looking for an agent _do not _deal with anyone who asks for money up front. Legitimate agents take their percentage out of what the publisher pays, so he only makes money if he sells your work. Going rate is 15 percent. You need to assemble a portfolio of work you have sold and had published. Use that to show agents what you can do.


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## Ethan (Jun 19, 2014)

I always use this as a writing aid for puctuation, it may help!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bpIbdZhrzA


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## Ixarku (Jun 19, 2014)

I've always had a great deal of respect for good spelling and grammar and a strong vocabulary.  As I've gotten older, my spelling has slipped a bit, meaning that I occasionally struggle to properly spell words I used to be able to spell easily.  I don't generally run into problems with grammar or sentence structure.

I usually have a thesaurus and dictionary handy when I write, but I use a website for each rather than a physical book.  Partly it's laziness, and partly it's because I have enough crap on my desk as it is.  I'm not sure if giving up a thesaurus would make me a better writer, but I doubt it.  My challenge isn't figuring out how to say what I want.  It's figuring out _what _I want to say in the first place -- and, frankly, this is the part of writing that absolutely terrifies me.  This is the thing that makes me wonder whether I have it in me to be a writer.  Anyone willing to work can learn the mechanics, the craft, but if you have nothing interesting to say, you're going to have a bad time.

I don't put any special value on using a particular tool or not; I'm going to always use whatever works for me.  I do absolutely despise the "show errors as you type" option in MS Word (the squiggly red lines over "misspelled" words), because I use a lot of invented names and I don't like a lot of extra squiggles cluttering up my pristine text.  I rarely use spell check at all, in fact.


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## garza (Jun 19, 2014)

I use nothing but Notepad for original composition, WordPad for basic formatting after final editing, Word for more elaborate formatting, and Pagemaker for finished product when there are formatting requirements beyond what Word can do. If a rewrite is called for, I go back to Notepad. Simple, fast, efficient, unobtrusive, and free if you already have any version of Windows. It's also cross platform.


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## Ixarku (Jun 19, 2014)

WordPad would probably be OK, but Notepad bugs the hell out of me.  The only thing I use Notepad for is for writing macros for our mainframe emulation software at work.

When I write fiction, I accumulate all kinds of notes on characters, locations, backstory, and so forth, and I like formatting these things in different ways - large bold fonts, bullet points, etc.  I've been using MS Word almost daily for close to 20 years, and I'm accustomed to its quirks and general functionality.  So I prefer compiling notes and writing manuscripts using the same tool.

I get a discount on MS Office through my job - I got 2010 for 10 bucks, so using Office both at home and at work is a no-brainer for me.


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## Nippon Devil (Jun 19, 2014)

J.T. Chris said:


> How is exclusively writing for money not a dream job? Sounds pretty good to me.



I think I see the problem now. When I say writing exclusively for money, you think I mean to say that a professional writer should not write and get paid all the time. What I actually mean to say is that for writing to be a dream job, I need to get some enjoyment out of it. Yes, every job has it's difficult parts. Maybe you don't want to re-write this or your editor wants you to add an extra 10K words that you think are totally unnecessary. But what I had been talking about all this time was writing without heart. And if you can't enjoy your job, it's not really a dream job.

I really hope that cleared things up this time. I'm not going to approach this part of the topic anymore.





Garza mentioned money and writing. I think I touched on this a bit earlier. Money complicates everything but it is possible to be passionate about the craft and make a living. I think if you love your job it becomes easier to do regardless of what it is. I think why writers/actors/directors/any other artistic field comes under fire is because most people going into these types of businesses have megalomania. "I'm going to publish my game/book/movie and everyone will know the name Fletch Ginklebottom!" That person doesn't love his craft. He loves the idea of his craft making him feel important. Of course, if he's willing to put the work in and actually become a house hold name, maybe he DOES love his craft. I suppose only Fletch Ginklebottom knows.


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## garza (Jun 19, 2014)

Ixarku - This thread has drifted onto the rocks and the modulators are going to come along and modulate some of us right out of here if we don't get it back on track. You have given me an idea to solve the problem. You prefer writing with Word. I use Notepad for writing, Word for formatting. Sam, I believe, uses, or did use, ywriter. 

So here is a good rule for young writers to pay attention to. Find the physical means of writing that is most comfortable for you and stay with it. Develop a high level of expertise with whatever method suits you best so that the physical act of writing becomes automatic, as though your mind is controlling your hands directly, as though you have the computer or pen or pencil under thought control. If you begin an endless search for the perfect writing software, the perfect pen, you will find the physical act of writing tiresome.

One more rule. Develop a love of and respect for words. Study them, play with them, work with them, and you will discover a pure delight in putting one word in front of another, in seeing how they fit together to create images in the mind and feelings in the heart. This delight will exist whether what you are writing is an adventure novel or a community news item for the local paper. Put that love for the craft into every word you write.

Oh, one more. Learn at least two foreign languages - another European language and one from the East. This will increase your appreciation for English and will open up new  worlds of literature for you to enjoy. You will find that ordinary daily life can be seen from many new angles. I recommend Spanish and Khmer.


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## Ixarku (Jun 19, 2014)

garza said:


> So here is a good rule for young writers to pay attention to. Find the physical means of writing that is most comfortable for you and stay with it. Develop a high level of expertise with whatever method suits you best so that the physical act of writing becomes automatic, as though your mind is controlling your hands directly, as though you have the computer or pen or pencil under thought control. If you begin an endless search for the perfect writing software, the perfect pen, you will find the physical act of writing tiresome.



This is certainly sound advice.  Although in my case, I don't find writing tiresome, but I do get tired when I write!  I've been working solidly for the last two and a half hours and my eyelids are drooping.  It's also past 10pm here, and I've been awake since 6am, so that has an influence as well.




garza said:


> One more rule. Develop a love of and respect for words. Study them, play with them, work with them, and you will discover a pure delight in putting one word in front of another, in seeing how they fit together to create images in the mind and feelings in the heart. This delight will exist whether what you are writing is an adventure novel or a community news item for the local paper. Put that love for the craft into every word you write.



This, too, is worthy advice.  That little bit of joy that comes from reading or creating a perfect turn of phrase is one of the things that makes writing both fun and captivating.





garza said:


> Oh, one more. Learn at least two foreign languages - another European language and one from the East. This will increase your appreciation for English and will open up new  worlds of literature for you to enjoy. You will find that ordinary daily life can be seen from many new angles. I recommend Spanish and Khmer.



Now this is something I'd never considered before.  I think in general, a writer is well-served, if not outright obligated, to seek out as many experiences and to learn as much as humanly possible.  The broader your realm of experience, the more unique perspectives you can bring to the table when the time comes to work.  I'd not really thought of it in terms of studying other languages, but it fits.  I think this a good recommendation for those so inclined.



For myself, I think one of my most important rules when writing or doing anything creative is to try to keep a sense of perspective.  It is so incredibly easy to fall into a cycle of self-criticism, or to take other people's opinions for gospel, and so trying to mentally distance yourself from the source of your doubts is really important to keeping your sanity.


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## Sam (Jun 20, 2014)

garza said:


> Ixarku - This thread has drifted onto the rocks and the modulators are going to come along and modulate some of us right out of here if we don't get it back on track. You have given me an idea to solve the problem. You prefer writing with Word. I use Notepad for writing, Word for formatting. Sam, I believe, uses, or did use, ywriter.
> 
> So here is a good rule for young writers to pay attention to. Find the physical means of writing that is most comfortable for you and stay with it. Develop a high level of expertise with whatever method suits you best so that the physical act of writing becomes automatic, as though your mind is controlling your hands directly, as though you have the computer or pen or pencil under thought control. If you begin an endless search for the perfect writing software, the perfect pen, you will find the physical act of writing tiresome.
> 
> ...



This, with one addendum. 

I wouldn't say learning another language is compulsory, but I also wouldn't say doing so has no benefit. If you have the time and wherewithal to learn another language, definitely go for it, but if you're like me (a mature student with just enough money to pay the bills and little free time) it may not be an option. But I agree with everything else you've said. For the record, I use Word, but I wouldn't begrudge anyone a word processor based on my preference. Find what works and stop searching. When you convince yourself that another system is better than the one you use, the grass will always been greener over there. At the moment, I'm using a ten-year-old laptop and the 2007 version of Microsoft Word. I could get a new laptop and the latest version of Word, but what I have does what I need it to do. I'm not playing video games, where I need the latest specs just to boot the damn CD. I'm writing words onto a page. If Word wasn't available to me, I'd use Note- or Wordpad. 

Love and respect words. Yes. That's why it frustrates me when people start threads called "Words to avoid using". Every word in the English language has a purpose and performs a task. In the hands of a skilled wordsmith, no word should be avoided. I've never seen any such restriction placed on another art. You wouldn't tell a painter to avoid using yellow. Why, then, do people insist it is okay to tell writers to avoid certain words? Your writing isn't weak because you used a taboo word; it's weak because you didn't use the word in the right way.


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## Ixarku (Jun 20, 2014)

Sam said:


> This, with one addendum.
> Love and respect words. Yes. That's why it frustrates me when people start threads called "Words to avoid using". Every word in the English language has a purpose and performs a task. In the hands of a skilled wordsmith, no word should be avoided. I've never seen any such restriction placed on another art. You wouldn't tell a painter to avoid using yellow. Why, then, do people insist it is okay to tell writers to avoid certain words? Your writing isn't weak because you used a taboo word; it's weak because you didn't use the word in the right way.




Precisely.  I suppose you could say it's another rule -- always use the right tool for the job.  Knowing how to apply the rule is certainly subjective, and there's no single way to do anything, but the reader is usually going to know if you've tried but failed to pull something off.


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## TKent (Jun 30, 2014)

I love that list!  Thanks!


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## TKent (Jun 30, 2014)

Honestly, college scared me away from anything but safe, boring writing because I knew one errant comma splice would cost me 10 points on an essay.  Decades later, I have no professor watching over my shoulder, and I am finally starting to write freely.  And in writing freely, I find that I am enjoying the process a great deal.  Now, when someone points out a technical issue, I'm more apt to go study the problem and correct it rather than tossing it in favor of something safe and boring. 

Here is an interesting article on Strunk & White's _Elements of Style_:  http://chronicle.com/article/50-Years-of-Stupid-Grammar/25497


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