# How To Take Critique (IMO)



## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 11, 2021)

The first thing you _must_ establish is where you sit on the hierarchy of the site. Yes, they have them. I can say with absolutely honesty, 'I know how good I am'. How would you as a reader construe that sentence though? It's neither saying 'I'm the best' or 'I'm the worse', it's simply stating, within the structure of the hierarchy, I know my position. This is, in my opinion, one of the most important factors when considering critique. 

You simply have to recognise those who are more competent than you and those who are less competent than you. It's a hard truth to swallow for a lot of people. Modestly is a welcome trait and so considering yourself 'less capable' than another writer is quite easy, but the reverse is often painful to acknowledge. You have to though. Without understand were you sit on that hierarchy, you can so easily be lead astray by those who may not be quite as competent as you. 

But that's not to say that someone less competent than you can't give great advise. There are many layers to writing, and whilst you may be more competent 'overall', there may be some things the less competent writer is ahead of you on. That is also very important to recognise, if only to stop you becoming conceited. Everyone has something of worth to contribute but more advanced and competent writers have more to contribute. 

This brings me to Style/Voice. So, you've established were you are in that hierarchy: 'You know how good you are'. But what about personal goals and targets for your style? How does that figure into the equation? This is where the more competent writers can help you more then the less competent writers. Because they've already been through the process and are closer to their own goals, they can recognise what it is you're trying to accomplish and adjust their critique accordingly. 

You may be using long sentences while developing that voice. You may be deliberately adding in fragments to develop that voice. You may be using too many adjectives to develop that voice etc. A writer who isn't as competent as you (or hasn't immediately recognised it as a style choice) would likely advise you to cut all the above. There's this 'need to critique' on every site I've ever been on. As a side note, that's also something to recognise when taking critique. 

In general terms: If a critique leads you away from your style goals, treat it with care. If a critique recognises your style goals and critiques in line with that goal, eat that critique up!

1/ Know where you sit in the hierarchy.
2/ Don't dismiss any critique off hand simply because the person critiquing isn't quite as competent as yourself
3/ Always be aware of whether a critique is leading you away from your style goals or enhancing your style choice.

And ALWAYS LIKE AND THANK people regardless.


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## Matchu (Mar 11, 2021)

Even as we now speak & read the great @AZ template is crafted in our writer mines.

Great, wow, geez
_Thanks_

Waht a starie 10/10
_Thanks

_Greetings Dear AZ I know we are the same age and bearing and agree on most issues and must again agree how you are marvellous craft-master, a smith of literary excellence beyond parallel in our long lifetimes...I was only thinking the other day about your other wonderful story.
_Thank you I am touched by your equally superb grasp of reality, we must have lunch but you are in a n other country,  mmmh, mmh, anything else nice to say about me? Like, Thanks, LoL

_Too many adjectives guvnor
_...
_Guv
...
Guvnor?
...
Oi, adjectives!
...

@AZ you were funny again like Terry Pratchitt.  
_Thanks mummy I will keep writing, you keep dancing Thanks, Like

_Adjectives!
...

In literature one is struggling to encapsulate voice, be it voice or voice, or a voice in void or vogue in time or place of voice.  Voice that is vocal.  
_Yes, yes I quite agree your highness, I said exactly the same thing about my voice. Thanks, Like, LOL

_...

xx


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 11, 2021)

Matchu said:


> Something ... perhaps patronising?



I have no idea what you just said.


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## Matchu (Mar 11, 2021)

Don't put a quote around something I didn't say tho...I'm not patronising...I'd be fed up if I was patronising.  If it comes across patronising I'm sorry and I apologise.  I liked your post, I was inspired by your post,  I'm teasing a little bit, but you're big enough to shrug me aside.  Maybe it's a commentary on all crit threads and 'writer reaction.'

Soz


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 11, 2021)

Matchu said:


> Don't put a quote around something I didn't say tho...I'm not patronising...I'd be fed up if I was patronising.  If it comes across patronising I'm sorry and I apologise.  I liked your post, I was inspired by your post,  I'm teasing a little bit, but you're big enough to shrug me aside.
> 
> Soz



Oh, in that case I apologise too! I just find it difficult to understand some of your posts.


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## Foxee (Mar 11, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> 1/ Know where you sit in the hierarchy.


I love you, Az, but I feel like this is far too big in your thought process. It's also dangerous in some situations to your creative progress. 

Example:

When I started out on my first writing forum looking for help and knowing that I was a newbie there was a member whose name was a variant on "Mama" (how warm and comforting) and in any critique would very persuasively say she was a mentor, she had mentored many writers, and that she would be happy to mentor the person she was giving a critique to. So the next time I wrote a story I sent it to her as invited...after all, she was at the top of the site hierarchy. The whole site seemed to agree on this point.

She shredded what I had written, gave me very little critique back, and told me I should find something to do other than writing. Her best advice, she said, was to cease trying to be a writer.

This is why you need to be super careful with this "they're better than me" thinking. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but don't give them power over your efforts.


> 2/ Don't dismiss any critique off hand simply because the person critiquing isn't quite as competent as yourself


Agree. Be thankful that someone read your work and took the time to comment. There is no rule anywhere forcing you to act on their input.


> 3/ Always be aware of whether a critique is leading you away from your style goals or enhancing your style choice.


Style is great. Style isn't everything. Story is everything. Tell the story. If input is helpful use it, if not, don't.


> And ALWAYS LIKE AND THANK people regardless.


Politeness and appreciation will get your stories critiqued again. At least by me...when I get to critique anything. LOL


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## Matchu (Mar 11, 2021)

I suppose I approach things at a tangent I find easiest.  I don't have your skill to debate and discuss the craft at length - without going 'straight to lit' - from my perspective.  It gets me in bother sometimes.


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## Matchu (Mar 11, 2021)

Mooma legend, and deceased.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 11, 2021)

Foxee said:


> I love you, Az, but I feel like this is far too big in your thought process. It's also dangerous in some situations to your creative progress.
> 
> Example:
> 
> ...



If I wasn't philosophical and felt some actual negativity from recognising someone is better than me, then yeah, I agree. But that's not the case and need not be the case for others. Recognising you are 'less than' isn't a negative, it's a positive. That 'better' writing will one day be 'your equal'. It's not a static consideration, it's an ever moving scale. I have no problem at all recognising someone is better than me. There's no negative attached to that statement at all. It's just a reality.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 11, 2021)

Matchu said:


> I suppose I approach things at a tangent I find easiest.  I don't have your skill to debate and discuss the craft at length - without going 'straight to lit' - from my perspective.  It gets me in bother sometimes.



I get you man. I have two modes too and sometimes can't bring myself to put the lit' hat on. It's hard enough bringing it to my writing, let alone bringing it to forum posts. I admire people who can do that though. They've clearly got an inherent gift.


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## JBF (Mar 11, 2021)

Foxee said:


> When I started out on my first writing forum looking for help and knowing that I was a newbie there was a member whose name was a variant on "Mama" (how warm and comforting) and in any critique would very persuasively say she was a mentor, she had mentored many writers, and that she would be happy to mentor the person she was giving a critique to. So the next time I wrote a story I sent it to her as invited...after all, she was at the top of the site hierarchy. The whole site seemed to agree on this point.



Having lurked some on WF in years gone... I feel a great disturbance in the force.


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## Matchu (Mar 11, 2021)

I dunno about better and worse.  I tell you tho, if you wrote a 2000 about trawlermen heading to sea in 1950s I'd pay you money for it, AZ.


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## Foxee (Mar 11, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> If I wasn't philosophical and felt some actual negativity from recognising someone is better than me, then yeah, I agree. But that's not the case and need not be the case for others.


But this is advice given to others and in some ways is an unexploded bomb.

Some people are 'really good' and some people are great at dressing up BS as being 'really good'. Sure you want to get your input from the most competent you can find just be careful.


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## JBF (Mar 11, 2021)

Foxee said:


> ....and some people are great at dressing up BS as being 'really good'.



You rang?


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## Foxee (Mar 11, 2021)

JBF said:


> You rang?


Oh no, your BS is real.

Er. I mean. You're really good!

(and you know it, too)


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## JBF (Mar 11, 2021)

Foxee said:


> Oh no, your BS is real.



Just so long as we're all on the same page.


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## Matchu (Mar 11, 2021)

Who hasn't stared at the "Editor's Poem" on the front page of the literary magazine for hour upon hour?  'That is crap, now that is crap.  Crap.  My crap is better than his crap, and he posts me those damned personalised e-mails using my first name AND when I send HIM a personalised e-mail he says go use submittable, fffff.'


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## indianroads (Mar 11, 2021)

There's a stark difference between criticize and critique, I strive to give the latter. How one takes critique depends on how it's delivered. 

Go to YouTube and search for and listen to 'Mr. Tanner by Harry Chapin' - excellent example of a horrible critique and it's affect on the artist.

The critique _doesn't have anything to do with hierarchy_, instead it has everything to do with the skill of the reviewer. A critique is not and should not be about tearing down an author, instead it's about helping them get better at the craft. When I tutor a student in martial arts, I first praise what they're doing well, then pick the low hanging fruit to correct. In that way, the student is encouraged and will keep training, and the next time I help them their technique will have improved and I'll correct other aspects.

No one starts climbing from the top of the stairs. The task of a mentor is to help them climb one step at a time.


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## Crooked Bird (Mar 11, 2021)

When you first said hierarchy, I heard social hierarchy. But what it really is is actual quality of writing, right?

That's where it can go wrong, is in mistaking social standing for talent. Some people are good at making themselves seem more than they are. I have no idea about this Mama person, but all the stuff about being a mentor is familiar to me from other places, and a lot of talk about one's status can serve to obscure one's actual abilities. I'd take a shredding from someone who writes amazingly, if it's a substantive shredding. (If it's just a contentless or nitpicky put-down, I'd go "Wow, sometimes even the wildly talented are really insecure.") But if someone's respected by others on a social level but I personally see big flaws in their actual work, not so much.

I mean that's where it is, right? If someone, a) knows what they're doing and b) knows what they're doing in the actual arena you're trying to improve in, that's who to listen to. If you know you know more than someone, you listen, but use a pinch of salt. Always always thank them for their crit, but use discernment in taking it to heart.

(Oh and Matchu to your last comment, I've never literally done that but boy do I know what you mean.)


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## Ibb (Mar 11, 2021)

I think the only appropriate way to handle critique is to politely say thank you while secretly harboring resentment and thoughts of revenge against your foe. Thereafter you must do everything within your power to discover their whereabouts that you might exact revenge at a later date courtesy a good old fashioned bludgeoning via perusal of your favorite Russian classic.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 11, 2021)

Crooked Bird said:


> When you first said hierarchy, I heard social hierarchy. But what it really is is actual quality of writing, right?
> 
> That's where it can go wrong, is in mistaking social standing for talent. Some people are good at making themselves seem more than they are. I have no idea about this Mama person, but all the stuff about being a mentor is familiar to me from other places, and a lot of talk about one's status can serve to obscure one's actual abilities. I'd take a shredding from someone who writes amazingly, if it's a substantive shredding. (If it's just a contentless or nitpicky put-down, I'd go "Wow, sometimes even the wildly talented are really insecure.") But if someone's respected by others on a social level but I personally see big flaws in their actual work, not so much.
> 
> ...



I agree. The problem is we have 'less than' and 'more than', 'better than' and 'worse than'. We attribute positive or negative values to each of those concepts. But both are of equal value. If someone is 'more than' then I have to also see myself as 'less than'. It's not 'putting myself down', it's recognising where I am and where I need to be. I reach up for the next rung of that ladder and look down for perspective on how far I've climbed. Those below will one day be on the rung I now occupy. Those above will always push me to seek higher ground. The ladder is endless.

But you first have to recognise the ladder exists. And you then have to recognise which rung you are on.


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## Foxee (Mar 11, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> But you first have to recognise the ladder exists. And you then have to recognise which rung you are on.


Why?

I agree that all of us fall along some kind of scale of competence but why are you so anxious to screw yourself to a certain position along it? You're going to change anyway on this scale so I guess keeping track in your own mind is nice. Other than that it doesn't do much.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 11, 2021)

Foxee said:


> Why?
> 
> I agree that all of us fall along some kind of scale of competence but why are you *so anxious to screw yourself to a certain position along it?* You're going to change anyway on this scale so I guess keeping track in your own mind is nice. Other than that it doesn't do much.



I'm not. What is 'is'. There is no value attributed to it. No emotional connection. It just 'is'.


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## Foxee (Mar 11, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> I'm not. What is 'is'. There is no value attributed to it. No emotional connection. It just 'is'.


And yet that is not true.

You're learning, right? Growing?

And along that scale that you're thinking about and supposedly not attributing any value to yet put at number one on your list of important things...

...EVERYONE is in a state of flux on that 'how good are you?' continuum.

For someone who's not placing value on this, it comes up in your communications a lot.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 11, 2021)

Foxee said:


> And yet that is not true.
> 
> You're learning, right? Growing?
> 
> ...



Yes, it's a continuum. 'The ladder is endless'. 'Less than' doesn't equate to 'worse than' and 'more than' doesn't equate to 'better than'. Knowing where you are on the ladder gives you perspective. To put it in writing forum terms: Understand that perspective enables you to be 'objective' about who to listen to and who not to listen to. That objectivity also allows you to take advice from someone you may not even like. Because you've attributed no emotional value to your position on that ladder, you can view it with dispassion and no resentment.


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## JJBuchholz (Mar 11, 2021)

Foxee said:


> This is why you *need to be super careful with this "they're better than me" thinking.* Maybe they are,
> maybe they aren't, but don't give them power over your efforts.



One would think that because we are all writers, that there would be a common respect to transcend attitude and ego. Unfortunately,
being a writer doesn't make on immune to feelings of superiority or inferiority. While critiquing can be a productive way to help other
writers, it can also be destructive.

For the most part, everyone in this community (save one that I blocked a while back and shall NOT mention) has been welcoming and
warm mainly because we are all writers and can relate to one another. That being said, things sometimes go awry and some elevate
themselves higher than others because they feel that they can.

As someone who is a published writer twice now, I could easily thumb my nose at any writer that hasn't had anything published, but
instead I choose to offer insight and help other writers because I don't forget how hard it was for me to find other writers to bounce
ideas off and talk about certain aspects of WIPs and the like.



Foxee said:


> Be thankful that someone read your work and took the time to comment. There is no rule anywhere forcing
> you to act on their input.



Yes. Even if someone has read your WIP and didn't care for it, *they still read it. *If you happen to get feedback on it, even if it borders
on criticism, it's still feedback that you can choose to either ignore or accept. That being said, people don't need to be rude about it if
they do offer said criticism. I'm sure I speak for a lot of writers out there when I say that a lot of us deal with a complex emotional state
on a daily basis and can only deal with so much at a time.

-JJB


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## Foxee (Mar 11, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> Yes, it's a continuum. 'The ladder is endless'. 'Less than' doesn't equate to 'worse than' and 'more than' doesn't equate to 'better than'. Knowing where you are on the ladder gives you perspective. To put it in writing forum terms: Understand that perspective enables you to be 'objective' about who to listen to and who not to listen to. That objectivity also allows you to take advice from someone you may not even like. Because you've attributed no emotional value to your position on that ladder, you can view it with dispassion and no resentment.


Okay, let's look at this 'ladder' because now I've realized that looking at this linearly is also incorrect.

The 'hierarchy' is in no way linear.

When you ask, "How good am I?" and "How good are you?" this compares you to someone else. It can't not. But also ask "What is each of us good AT?"

There are terrifyingly good proofreaders and copyeditors.
There are whizbangs at long works like novels.
there are brilliant writers of poetry who bring that into prose. (Hello, Gumby)
There are historical fiction writers
There are worldbuilders who struggle to create characters
There are originators of characters who struggle to create a world
etc.
etc.
etc.

So you can't build a linear model of this, it would have to be 3D. Actually, 4D in time and space. So don't give me this stuff about how 'the hierarchy is' and somehow you have to stick yourself into place in it. 

Time better spent writing.

Which I should go do...


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## Darkkin (Mar 11, 2021)

There are some critiques I write because I can learn something by analysing the work.  Some pieces simply resonate and I might happen across a nit or two, a suggestion for consider, or a compare and contrast example.  It is entirely about the work, not the author, and there are members I read because I value their insights.  There are also some I take care to avoid for various reasons. If anyone takes the time to read my work, I always try to acknowledge their time and effort.  (They took time they did not have to give to read what, I know is tedious work.) What I rarely see is anyone actually taking a look at the mechanical parts of a project.  One conclusion I come to is that it is too poor not to warrant comment, even in problem areas.  But one rarely improves if one tosses in the towel.  As with laundry, you only turn one load of whites pink once...:smile:

And as with all critique/critical analysis there are always going to be writers who take it as a personal attack.  A majority will ignore it with a, 'Gee thanks!'  But there are still those rare few who actually take what is said with a grain of salt and learn for it.  The back and forth between reader and reviser is a huge learning opportunity for both sides.

Just some thoughts,

- D.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 11, 2021)

Foxee said:


> Okay, let's look at this 'ladder' because now I've realized that looking at this linearly is also incorrect.
> 
> The 'hierarchy' is in no way linear.
> 
> ...



We've moved onto the idea of the ladder (hierarchy) in general though (in more philosophical terms). If you look at the OP you'll see I actually covered some of that. 



> But that's not to say that someone less competent than you can't give great advise. There are many layers to writing, and whilst you may be more competent 'overall', there may be some things the less competent writer is ahead of you on. That is also very important to recognise, if only to stop you becoming conceited. Everyone has something of worth to contribute but more advanced and competent writers have more to contribute.



I wouldn't put myself in the 'more competent overall' bracket there by the way.  I'd put myself on a 'reasonably competent' rung at the moment, with many more rungs to climb.


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## Darren White (Mar 11, 2021)

Matchu said:


> Who hasn't stared at the "Editor's Poem" on the front page of the literary magazine for hour upon hour?  'That is crap, now that is crap.  Crap.  My crap is better than his crap [...]


Now this truly made me LMAO, that's so true, I do these things


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## EternalGreen (Mar 11, 2021)

How to take critique:

1. Take it personally
2. Attack the character of the person critiquing you
3. Explain why they are wrong
4. For every negative comment they make, assume they are thinking ten
5. Bring up your superiority 
6. Mention your credentials
7. Tear down something they wrote to get even


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## Foxee (Mar 11, 2021)

indianroads said:


> The critique _doesn't have anything to do with hierarchy_, instead it has everything to do with the skill of the reviewer.


This.


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## -xXx- (Mar 11, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> <snip>
> This brings me to Style/Voice. So, you've established w*H*ere you are in that hierarchy: 'You know how good you are'. But what about personal goals and targets for your style? How does that figure into the equation? This is where the more competent writers can help you more th*A*en the less competent writers. Because they've already been through the process and are closer to their own goals, they can recognis*Z*e what it is you're trying to accomplish and adjust their critique accordingly. <snip>
> 
> 1/ Know where you sit in the hierarchy. (down there, 'round the corner a bit)
> ...



wiki.ish.ness:
According to Mehrabian,[4] the three elements account differently for our liking for the person who puts forward a message concerning their feelings: words account for 7%, tone of voice accounts for *38%*, and facial expression accounts for 55% of the liking.

might be insightful.
might not.
*slides under table*
*forgets concrete knees*
*again*


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## Darkkin (Mar 11, 2021)

We have had some (high ranking) members who would waffle off tangent on a piece with obscure examples to the point where the OP and the issue is lost in the shuffle.  It comes down to the merit of the critique and the merit of the work being reviewed...not how long you've been here.

4th Wall is your best friend on both sides.  Let the words do the work and everybody wins.


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## Phil Istine (Mar 11, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> The first thing you _must_ establish is where you sit on the hierarchy of the site. Yes, they have them. I can say with absolutely honesty, 'I know how good I am'. How would you as a reader construe that sentence though? It's neither saying 'I'm the best' or 'I'm the worse', it's simply stating, within the structure of the hierarchy, I know my position. This is, in my opinion, one of the most important factors when considering critique.
> 
> You simply have to recognise those who are more competent than you and those who are less competent than you. It's a hard truth to swallow for a lot of people. Modestly is a welcome trait and so considering yourself 'less capable' than another writer is quite easy, but the reverse is often painful to acknowledge. You have to though. Without understand were you sit on that hierarchy, you can so easily be lead astray by those who may not be quite as competent as you.
> 
> ...



Giving critique always felt very daunting on here at first, but less so in more recent times.  It's fair to say though that even the best writer sometimes needs another writer's eyes scanning their work, even if it's simply to suggest a change in punctuation, a line break, or to alter one or two words - particularly in poetry.

I think it's good to remember that critique is a gift, even if the writer ultimately decides to not implement any of it.


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## bazz cargo (Mar 11, 2021)

Hi Mighty,
I love this thought on critting. I'm not sure where I would sit in any hierarchy. 
As long as it isn't so long I'd need a calender to time it by I'd willingly take a shufti at something you want some feedback on. PM me a link.
As for me...Hmmm... I read work by other writers. When I find someone who impresses me, I will do my best to help if I can. If they are serious, and usually they are, they will return the favour. I should point out that I was lucky enough to join at a time when there was an influx of quality creatives. Bilston Blue is a writers writer. Over the years quite a few tiros have found me and chipped in some useful points. Any crit always gets a best quality response. Every eye brings something new. I don't always agree with it but it gets considered and appreciated. Newbies have to be cherished, they have a steep learning curve and sometimes a unique point of view.  The most beneficial thing is patience. Giving time to someone who needs a helping hand. 
You have a fertile imagination and an appreciation that there are always undercurrents. 
Good to meet you
I look forward to a spot of key clicking with you
Good luck
Bazz


TheMightyAz said:


> The first thing you _must_ establish is where you sit on the hierarchy of the site. Yes, they have them. I can say with absolutely honesty, 'I know how good I am'. How would you as a reader construe that sentence though? It's neither saying 'I'm the best' or 'I'm the worse', it's simply stating, within the structure of the hierarchy, I know my position. This is, in my opinion, one of the most important factors when considering critique.
> 
> You simply have to recognise those who are more competent than you and those who are less competent than you. It's a hard truth to swallow for a lot of people. Modestly is a welcome trait and so considering yourself 'less capable' than another writer is quite easy, but the reverse is often painful to acknowledge. You have to though. Without understand were you sit on that hierarchy, you can so easily be lead astray by those who may not be quite as competent as you.
> 
> ...


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 11, 2021)

bazz cargo said:


> Hi Mighty,
> I love this thought on critting. I'm not sure where I would sit in any hierarchy.
> As long as it isn't so long I'd need a calender to time it by I'd willingly take a shufti at something you want some feedback on. PM me a link.
> As for me...Hmmm... I read work by other writers. When I find someone who impresses me, I will do my best to help if I can. If they are serious, and usually they are, they will return the favour. I should point out that I was lucky enough to join at a time when there was an influx of quality creatives. Bilston Blue is a writers writer. Over the years out that quite a few tiros have found me and chipped in some useful points. Any crit always gets a best quality response. Every eye brings something new. I don't always agree with it but it gets considered and appreciated. Newbies have to be cherished, they have a steep learning curve and sometimes a unique point of view.  The most beneficial thing is patience. Giving time to someone who needs a helping hand.
> ...



I will forward you that link with pleasure. Good to meet you too.


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## Phil Istine (Mar 11, 2021)

indianroads said:


> There's a stark difference between criticize and critique, I strive to give the latter. How one takes critique depends on how it's delivered.
> 
> Go to YouTube and search for and listen to 'Mr. Tanner by Harry Chapin' - excellent example of a horrible critique and it's affect on the artist.
> 
> ...



The Harry Chapin song you linked to was inspiring.  I have a couple of old albums of his (yes, vinyl), one of which is called _Verities and Balderdash_.  He could write some total crap in my opinion, but the beauty that he wrote more than made that completely worthwhile.  He had the knack of plucking emotions from the air and finding a way into the soul.  I find myself listening to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PYzCUVw0ZI
for the first time in many years (I bought the album around 1981 and still have it after all these years).
Shooting Star is another good track on there.


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## indianroads (Mar 11, 2021)

Phil Istine said:


> The Harry Chapin song you linked to was inspiring.  I have a couple of old albums of his (yes, vinyl), one of which is called _Verities and Balderdash_.  He could write some total crap in my opinion, but the beauty that he wrote more than made that completely worthwhile.  He had the knack of plucking emotions from the air and finding a way into the soul.  I find myself listening to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PYzCUVw0ZI
> for the first time in many years (I bought the album around 1981 and still have it after all these years).
> Shooting Star is another good track on there.



Off topic... but I feel that Taxi and Mr. Tanner were his best songs. I saw him perform at a small venue in the SF Bayarea (The Circle Star Theater) in 74 or 75. Great music.


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## Phil Istine (Mar 11, 2021)

indianroads said:


> Off topic... but I feel that Taxi and Mr. Tanner were his best songs. I saw him perform at a small venue in the SF Bayarea (The Circle Star Theater) in 74 or 75. Great music.



Sorry, yes, I did wander, but your link was relevant because it was a song about the effect critique had on someone.


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## indianroads (Mar 11, 2021)

Phil Istine said:


> Sorry, yes, I did wander, but your link was relevant because it was a song about the effect critique had on someone.



Lucky for you that I won't report you to a MOD.  

I am a pretty good martial art teacher, but I don't have much experience critiquing people's writing and am not comfortable doing so.

Writing has voice, mood, cadence, and thousands of other aspects. Compare Ernest Hemingway, Stephen King, Kurt Vonnegut, they're completely different yet still excellent. If you're expecting Hemingway and read Vonnegut your critique could be unjustly harsh. I think it takes a lot of experience and skill to give a good critique while at the same time not discouraging an author and silencing their voice.


----------



## JJBuchholz (Mar 11, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> But you first have to recognize the ladder exists. And you then have to recognize which rung you are on.




Why do we even need this ladder to begin with with? As far as I can see, something like this 'ladder' of yours doesn't really serve a purpose other
than to elevate some writers over others, even though we all are one of the same. As writers hone their craft and enhance their writing, then
wouldn't that change their positions almost all the time and put them at even higher 'rungs'.

Sorry, but I think this 'ladder' idea is both insulting and denigrating to a certain extent. As I said earlier, we should be helping new and less
experienced writers (within reason) rather than classifying them based on this 'ladder' nonsense.

The last thing the world needs right now is more division. We have enough out there as it is.

-JJB


----------



## Crooked Bird (Mar 11, 2021)

Foxee said:


> Okay, let's look at this 'ladder' because now I've realized that looking at this linearly is also incorrect.
> 
> The 'hierarchy' is in no way linear.
> 
> ...



Hey, that's what I was going to say!! And you already said it [checks time]

Geez, y'all's pace is really something. I thought I was going at it hard today. I just have a couple days off here, after this you'll probably see me commenting twice a day unfortunately. That's life with kids, your time off isn't totally off. Still, love an active forum.

Anywho. This is exactly what I was going to say. And that goes with the fact that there's a reason I said earlier "know what they're doing" and "know what they're doing in the area you want to improve in".

I mean maybe Az, you're just already detached emotionally from your notion of your place on the ladder, but for most of us adjusting our language helps. It's not about how good you _are_ but about what you know, what you can do, and what you're trying to learn to do. That's more than just semantics because it does matter psychologically. The parenting advice I follow is not to tell kids they _are_ smart, but to focus on what they can do and use phrases like "You did it!" It helps them focus on the doing and improving and not assume they've got an innate quality that either will or will not (if it turns out they're not smart _enough_) help them with a given task.

But actually I like the original point is very well taken, overall. Consider the source, basically.


----------



## bazz cargo (Mar 11, 2021)

This is a bit of a cheek, replying to another contributor, but....
I like the idea of a ladder, it gives me something to subvert and rebel against. Everywhere someone or some organisation is out to fit me into a pigeon hole... Muhawawawa! 





JJBuchholz said:


> Why do we even need this ladder to begin with with? As far as I can see, something like this 'ladder' of yours doesn't really serve a purpose other
> than to elevate some writers over others, even though we all are one of the same. As writers hone their craft and enhance their writing, then
> wouldn't that change their positions almost all the time and put them at even higher 'rungs'.
> 
> ...


----------



## Darkkin (Mar 11, 2021)

Are we sure it's a ladder?  It might be a soap box...those are more portable and easier to climb  (I can deal with a soap box, ladders not so much.  I don't like heights.)


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## bdcharles (Mar 11, 2021)

Foxee said:


> This is why you need to be super careful with this "they're better than me" thinking. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but don't give them power over your efforts.



So true. Some people that are cracking writers aren't so good at guidance. It's just a different skill set slash area of interest.

My dream critiquer is not a writer but a reader. Ooh, that almost rhymes (whizzes self over to the poetry comp)


----------



## bdcharles (Mar 11, 2021)

EternalGreen said:


> How to take critique:
> 
> 1. Take it personally
> 2. Attack the character of the person critiquing you
> ...



8. Do all the above after several angry glasses of wine.


----------



## EternalGreen (Mar 11, 2021)

bdcharles said:


> 8. Do all the above after several angry glasses of wine.



Wine? I was going to suggest whiskey and powerful stimulants.

The last thing a writer needs is a healthy sleep-schedule.


----------



## VRanger (Mar 11, 2021)

Matchu said:


> Who hasn't stared at the "Editor's Poem" on the front page of the literary magazine for hour upon hour?  'That is crap, now that is crap.  Crap.  My crap is better than his crap, and he posts me those damned personalised e-mails using my first name AND when I send HIM a personalised e-mail he says go use submittable, fffff.'




That's essentially how Edgar Rice Burroughs got started. He had failed at a few businesses and needed an income. He looked at the adventure stories of the day and said, "These are crap, and I'm sure I can write better crap than that." He was right, and he did very well.


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## Taylor (Mar 11, 2021)

JJBuchholz said:


> Why do we even need this ladder to begin with with? As far as I can see, something like this 'ladder' of yours doesn't really serve a purpose other
> than to elevate some writers over others, even though we all are one of the same. As writers hone their craft and enhance their writing, then
> wouldn't that change their positions almost all the time and put them at even higher 'rungs'.
> 
> ...



Agree...the ladder concept is repugnant.  New and less experienced writers may be able to help veterans if they have fresh eyes or more inherent talent.

Writing is an art form...not a competition.


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## Foxee (Mar 11, 2021)

Darkkin said:


> Are we sure it's a ladder?  It might be a soap box...those are more portable and easier to climb  (I can deal with a soap box, ladders not so much.  I don't like heights.)


This made me think that in some artistic arenas the 'hierarchy' is more like 'king of the mountain' on the soapbox.


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## Darkkin (Mar 11, 2021)

Foxee said:


> This made me think that in some artistic arenas the 'hierarchy' is more like 'king of the mountain' on the soapbox.



The closest to King of the Mountain I ever got was watching the King of the Rock scene in Mulan...(That certainly explains a few things...)


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## JJBuchholz (Mar 11, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Agree...the ladder concept is repugnant.  New and less experienced writers may be able to help veterans if they have
> fresh eyes or more inherent talent. Writing is an art form...not a competition.



I think that's what I was trying to say, but in too many words as usual. 

-JJB


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## Deleted member 65533 (Mar 11, 2021)

I'd like to throw my hat in and wade a few words in your discussions, as a newbie, a person looking for help and advice in forums ... but honestly i found the start of this topic scary.

In being here i see who are the more 'powerful' voices, most frequent contributors but a system to respect those who deem themselves better than others (to me) is simply wrong. In anything there is always opinions and sure others may favour one person to another, but to insinuate that one is better than the other cannot be right, this only pushes people away. 

I came here to learn, to pick up tips, how people work and function, their drives and styles, hoping to be part of a group that serves the same cause of helping each other where all voices are heard and respected. Speaking from a totally novice level, it is wrong to make the point to others where they should be, i read all your replies thinking ... what is this? That we need to know our place in this ladder?

Your intentions may have been good for grading your work with better qualified people but that is a huge slap in the face to everyone you may grade as lower. I put myself at the bottom of the rank, it doesn't mean I can't read a good book, read good compositions.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 11, 2021)

LOL.

Give this another few days and people will be interpreting this as me advocating the slaughter of kittens.


----------



## EternalGreen (Mar 11, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> LOL.
> 
> Give this another few days and people will be interpreting this as me advocating the slaughter of kittens.



While I agree with the spirit of your recommendation, I'd like to add that the most efficient way of killing kittens is not, as you claim, to strike them with a hammer.

The best method is to toss them in a large bucket, allowing the accumulating weight to suffocate them.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 11, 2021)

EternalGreen said:


> While I agree with the spirit of your recommendation, I'd like to add that the most efficient way of killing kittens is not, as you claim, to strike them with a hammer.
> 
> The best method is to toss them in a large bucket, *allowing the accumulating weight to suffocate them.*



Wow, that's dark! I'll note that for a future horror story.  It actually gave me the shivers.


----------



## indianroads (Mar 11, 2021)

Takeaway Junkie said:


> I'd like to throw my hat in and wade a few words in your discussions, as a newbie, a person looking for help and advice in forums ... but honestly i found the start of this topic scary.
> 
> In being here i see who are the more 'powerful' voices, most frequent contributors but a system to respect those who deem themselves better than others (to me) is simply wrong. In anything there is always opinions and sure others may favour one person to another, but to insinuate that one is better than the other cannot be right, this only pushes people away.
> 
> ...



Please don’t be put off by this thread. ‘Hierarchy’ was in my opinion a very poor word choice. No one wants to return to High School. That’s not what this writing forum is about. We are all here to help and have fun with each other.


----------



## VRanger (Mar 11, 2021)

AZ has a point here, but I'm not sure I'd express it in the same way as a series of levels. There ARE varied skill sets. In my mind there are great writers, effective writers, writers with potential, and crap writers.

Great writers have no holes in their technical skills, and originality that makes you say WOW when you get where their story is going. They often put words together in impressive and/or amusing ways.

Effective writers also have good technical skills. You enjoy reading them, but you won't be thinking Wow quite as often. Effective writers may or may not ever take a step up to be a great writer, but even if they don't, they're still fun to read.

Writers with potential have important things still to learn. They know that, and work on those things. They might have one particular hole in their talent, or many, but they chip away and continue to improve. If they're honest about those holes and keep at it, they stand an excellent chance to make the leap to become an Effective writer. Sometimes these writers get published, and I think it's a shame when they do, because I've seen writers at this skill level get published and think "That's it, I'm there." But they're not there, and sooner or later readers finally notice and stop buying. I started a series by such a writer this time last year, and read four of his books, hoping to see a progression in his skills. The first book WAS interesting, but really had some issues. His fourth book had ALL the same issues, so I stopped and I'll never read him again. It's a pity. If someone had told him the truth about his first book, he might have had a chance to be really good.

Crap writers have a lot of holes in their writing, think they're great, and are sure that critiques which point out their flaws are in error. Without an unlikely epiphany, they are going to be stuck being a crap writer. To improve at anything, a person MUST acknowledge there are things they can and must learn ... and put those lessons into practice.

So AZ is right, in that it's good for a writer to be honest with themselves about their skill set. It can be as simple as lots of typos, and KNOWING you need to edit those typos so no one else ever sees them. It can be as severe as readable prose with a terribly broken plot, and learning how to plot better. Or you have a great story, but cliched dialogue. The point is to recognize these things independently, or when someone who knows informs the writer about an issue. To become an effective writer, we need both the honesty and the drive to develop the complete package of skills.


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## Matchu (Mar 12, 2021)

I don’t think ‘crap writers’ get enough credit.  I always try to raise this point, a sincere point, how if you read enough CW - like a CW tutor maybe - there’s a sense of treasure trove akin to ‘Outsider Art.’  Sometimes the mis-match between author’s perception and readers’ perception is outstanding - deserving I believe one day in the future - genre space of its own.  Even the sparkly window intros. Again, I mean most sincerely not in a haughty sense.

[Opinion withdrawn.  Nobody ever agrees with this POV.  POV to graze in meadow 100 years.  Apols]


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## Deleted member 65533 (Mar 12, 2021)

@Vranger i agree 100% that there are different standards of writers that can be catagorised into different degrees of skills, what i don't agree with is the need to publicise to make sure the 'crap' know they are crap.

I have been here for a short period of time, but you can 'see' who are the stronger writers and you give respect to them, read their work, not necessarily be a loud voice in critiquing but learn from others giving their feedback on published pieces of work, to see mistakes that an author has made and learn from them. I stand from a very lowly position knowing ... knowing i am not comparable to many if not all of the members here.

We all write for different reasons. Some write because they have wonderful creative minds to write Sci-Fi series, many books, full time, whilst others write Fiction or Poems, short stories but the common factor to all writers is that writing adds value to their lives. I researched a lot before coming into this forum to find 'like minded' people to share their views and advice unsure i will ever put any work for people to critique for help. I run 2 businesses, have 2 young kids to support, work 6 a days week. Writing is a lovely past time, writing is something i can submerge myself in, go into a world i created. I have so many 'holes' yet i struggle with it because i love writing, because it has the power to take away the realities of this world. I came here to learn and accept help from people who have series, who have published, even to people like myself, just writing, a total novice with zero experience, scared that whatever i write is awful but wanting to be the best i can be, whatever that level or standard will be.

Great writers still look to people below them for advice. In all the research i have done, Great authors continually push themselves to find better ways to better themselves, to learn from others, knowing they have had success but always worrying that what they have started on maybe a complete failure still. Being humble has always been key in their messages.

"The first thing you _must establish is where you sit on the hierarchy of the site."
_
Many here have published, written many many books and are at a far higher 'level' than many many others, trust me, from a little guy looking up it is obvious. I read the importance of the first line in any writing, it sets the tone of your work but what is written cannot be right. The 'crap writers' know who they are. The 'crap writers' join to seek help to improve, not to be put in place. The 'crap writers' always appreciate others for help, it is why they joined, and whilst some 'crap writers' carry stubborn confidence that once they receive some positive news and assurances, they can be multi-best selling authors, the real world makes most 'crap writers' know that it is unlikely they will ever reach that gold standard, only looking to see how far they can go to get their writings in the best shape they can.

How this thread makes new people accepted, look up to 'better' writers when they are 'told' to stay quiet is disappointing.


----------



## druid12000 (Mar 12, 2021)

Matchu said:


> I don’t think ‘crap writers’ get enough credit.  I always try to raise this point, a sincere point, how if you read enough CW - like a CW tutor maybe - there’s a sense of treasure trove akin to ‘Outsider Art.’  Sometimes the mis-match between author’s perception and readers’ perception is outstanding - deserving I believe one day in the future - genre space of its own.  Even the sparkly window intros. Again, I mean most sincerely not in a haughty sense.
> 
> [Opinion withdrawn.  Nobody ever agrees with this POV.  POV to graze in meadow 100 years.  Apols]



I love B-movies! I was a faithful viewer of USA Network's 'UP All Night'. The movies were mostly awful, but I knew what I was getting when I watched.


----------



## PiP (Mar 12, 2021)

Darren White said:


> Now this truly made me LMAO, that's so true, I do these things



I remember reading one of the winning entries for the 
https://intercompetition.com/writing/ad/2021-wergle-flomp-humor-poetry-contest,1712

and thinking, well that was crap. What was funny about that? Obviously there are also different hierarchies of humour.  I am still puzzled to this day. Maybe it should have read 'dark humour'


----------



## JJBuchholz (Mar 12, 2021)

Takeaway Junkie said:


> I'd like to throw my hat in and wade a few words in your discussions, as a newbie, a person looking
> for help and advice in forums ... but honestly *i found the start of this topic scary.*



Which is why attitudes and ideas like the ones presented by this thread need to be avoided. New writers/people with the creative mindset
like ours need to be embraced. We can offer both advice and constructive criticism (to a point) when necessary, but scaring them away
outright doesn't serve any purpose.

As someone who has been ridiculed for years due to being a writer, there were times when I almost stopped writing. Not just because no
one would take me seriously as a writer, but also due to other writers looking so far down at me that it was disheartening. A lot of people
seem to forget that most, if not ALL of the famous writers/novelists started out as a beginner themselves. 

No matter how successful as a writer someone becomes, they should never look down on other writers because of that success. I am of
the opinion that for a writer, success can be measured in more ways than one.



Takeaway Junkie said:


> In being here i see who are the more 'powerful' voices, most frequent contributors but a system to
> respect those who deem themselves better than others (to me) is simply wrong. In anything there is always opinions and sure others may
> favour one person to another, but to insinuate that one is better than the other cannot be right, this only pushes people away.



Exactly. This is why I had to block someone on this forum (not mentioning names) for that reason. Everyone here in this community has
been very welcoming for the most part. There is always one bad apple no matter where you go, so be prepared. That being said, I think
this forum is full of wonderful people that I personally enjoy conversing with.



Takeaway Junkie said:


> I came here to learn, to pick up tips, how people work and function, their drives and styles, hoping to
> be part of a group that serves the same cause of helping each other where all voices are heard and respected.



Don't let one thread dissuade you from doing all of that. I found this forum to be a little daunting at first, but then I started to contribute
and ask questions, and it became a lot of fun in the process. If it's one thing I have found here, is that there is a great deal of respect
going around between members.

Take the 'ladder' idea for what it is - a bad one that has no merit. Something like that shouldn't define us as writers, nor should it be used
as any kind of measuring stick. It doesn't so much matter what you write, as long as you're writing and honing your craft with each story
or manuscript you complete.

-JJB


----------



## VRanger (Mar 12, 2021)

Takeaway Junkie said:


> @Vranger i agree 100% that there are different standards of writers that can be catagorised into different degrees of skills, what i don't agree with is the need to publicise to make sure the 'crap' know they are crap.



And I never said one should. For the most part, you won't find a "crap writer" here, because people come here to learn, whether they're trying to learn basics or just fine tune. Plus, you've got great writers here who come for the comradery with other writers, and to help guide aspiring writers.

 I've seen a sad case or two where the person is trying to learn, but showing no signs it's taking, but that's really an exception. You'll find people here whose writing isn't ready for publication, but that's a step in virtually EVERY writer's development.

Otherwise, what happens is one of two things: The crap writer happens to write in an area of particular interest (often prurient) and gets published, or they self-publish. Then -- the reviews come in. If we publish and are lucky enough to get some readers, if the writing is crap the reviews will soon expose that, and it's fair they do. And there's a real danger in that. In my experience on Amazon, writers who self-published too soon either never believed the reviews and kept pushing crap, or DID believe the reviews and got discouraged from writing anything else. The first type is simply going to happen. A site like this is a safety net for the second type.


----------



## Darkkin (Mar 12, 2021)

It comes down to being a conscious writer, in both the creative and critical phases.  Be aware of your skill set and work with it, be kind whenever possible, but most of all be honest.

- D.


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## Taylor (Mar 12, 2021)

Takeaway Junkie said:


> How this thread makes new people accepted, look up to 'better' writers when they are 'told' to stay quiet is disappointing.



I just checked the WF rules and was expecting to find something about making WF a safe place where everyone's opinion is welcome and equal, but could not.  Maybe owners could consider it under _posting etiquette_?

As an adult educator it was one of the first things I learned.   Don't rank people (no "top of the class" comments), and don't make jokes at their expense.  I remember once, I had marked all my papers and because we issued marks on a bell curve, I had put them in the order of percentage.  Unfortunately when I handed them out, I forgot to mix them up again.  So, I handed them out in the order of rank, the highest marks first.  One student picked up on it, and blurted it out.  I consider it one of my greatest failings as a teacher.  

I also want to make the point, that writing is not a science.  What one contributor thinks is "better" writing or "crap" writing is only an opinion.  So even if you tried to create some kind of a "hierarchy", each person's hierarchy would look completely different.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 12, 2021)

I find it fascinating on a site that has 'awards', people find it 'heartbreaking' some people are more advanced than them. 

For all those with more awards than me! I'm coming for YA!!!! 

Come on, folks, you're all turning this into something it isn't.


----------



## Matchu (Mar 12, 2021)

wip for after work, saved dr2 actually for when I get home

After the defeat of ladderman [Dr Who, episode 7] came a new tyranny of teachers [episode 8].  Gathered in their garden centres the daffodils were sliced, the poppies mutilated at the tip of a stem even as they reached for sunlight which must be shared by order of teacher.  Flower people yearned for a return of ladderman and his nice uniforms.


----------



## JJBuchholz (Mar 12, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> Come on, folks, you're all turning this into something it isn't.



The door was opened enough for all to pass through right from the beginning....

-JJB


----------



## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 12, 2021)

Matchu said:


> wip for after work, saved dr2 actually for when I get home
> 
> After the defeat of ladderman [Dr Who, episode 7] came a new tyranny of teachers [episode 8].  Gathered in their garden centres the daffodils were sliced, the poppies mutilated at the tip of a stem even as they reached for sunlight which must be shared by order of teacher.  Flower people yearned for a return of ladderman and his nice uniforms.



You are a fascinating character. I have to read your posts many times and even then, I struggle to fully grasp what it is I've just read. lol


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## JBF (Mar 12, 2021)

From my vantage...there is is some value in recognizing that not everybody's working at the same level.  Part of that is necessarily realizing that you can learn from other writers and certain willingness to consider criticism.  Another part is having the confidence in your particular vision to recognize that not every suggestion is going to be of use.

A while back I posted something on another site.  This was after I'd started writing seriously on my going project.  Mostly I was wanting to know how the big-picture stuff came across - how well the world was fleshed out, whether the characters were believable, the readers' overall impression of the thing.  I got a lot of worthwhile feedback - and I got a few who went through and red-lined every perceived deviation from the Queen's English.  I'd figured that once a reader sat through eight pages of my scribblings that they realize those deviations were intentional as part of voice and style.  Evidently not.

There were two notable points I took away from all this: 

- The people who provided feedback based on my listed questions were universally valuable for fine-tuning, and
- The people who focused on the use of language generally had little to say about the stuff I actually wanted to know

I told them I appreciated their time and ignored them thereafter.  There's only so much you can do when you ask for a salad fork and someone hands you a tire pressure gauge.  

This doesn't mean begrudging someone their opinion.  This means knowing what you want to do and roughly how you mean to do it while also recognizing a certain amount of response is going to be of limited utility if not outright useless.  You _know _the thing doesn't conform and you're not asking how to bring it in line.  You as the writer have to be able to read the transmission and pick out that which is signal and which is noise.  This can be frustrating for those newer in the game who haven't yet figured out how to balance their own skills and weaknesses - or even what those are yet.  

Of the ladder question I'm less certain.  I'm of a mind that posted works are less a measure of what rung you stand and more a snapshot of a radar screen.  At a glance you have your contacts with their type, heading, and altitude, but in that one instant (and absent other information) you don't know their origin, destination, where they were ten minutes ago and where they'll be five minutes from now.  The whole value of the system depends on passing information in real time.  It's dynamic, always moving, and one frame of tracking an hour-long flight tells almost nothing of the longer journey.


----------



## -xXx- (Mar 12, 2021)

Taylor said:


> I just checked the WF rules and was expecting to find something about making WF a safe place where everyone's opinion is welcome and equal, but could not.  Maybe owners could consider it under _posting etiquette_?
> 
> <snip>



like here.ish?


> *Aims and Objectives*
> The main aim of Writing Forums is to provide a friendly, active literary  community where you can talk to and make friends with other writers.  This is a privately owned site which seeks to promote a comfortable  environment for writers of all ages and levels of ability to share and  get feedback on their work.
> 
> We encourage open discussion so that members may share ideas, tips and  tricks and network. While postings represent the individual opinions of  forum participants, the site is monitored by the Writing Forums staff.  We reserve the right to remove any postings that are considered  inappropriate, profane, harassing or defamatory.
> ...


*reads aloud*
*in favorite butler voice*


----------



## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 12, 2021)

JBF said:


> From my vantage...there is is some value in recognizing that not everybody's working at the same level.  Part of that is necessarily realizing that you can learn from other writers and certain willingness to consider criticism.  Another part is having the confidence in your particular vision to recognize that not every suggestion is going to be of use.
> 
> A while back I posted something on another site.  This was after I'd started writing seriously on my going project.  Mostly I was wanting to know how the big-picture stuff came across - how well the world was fleshed out, whether the characters were believable, the readers' overall impression of the thing.  I got a lot of worthwhile feedback - and I got a few who went through and red-lined every perceived deviation from the Queen's English.  I'd figured that once a reader sat through eight pages of my scribblings that they realize those deviations were intentional as part of voice and style.  Evidently not.
> 
> ...



A radar analogy would likely suit more people, I agree. When I speak of 'the ladder', I'm not talking about MY position on that ladder, hence 'How to *take* critique' As you know, I'm a nuts and bolts person. I work on certain aspects of writing at a time. Those I see as rungs. The ladder goes on forever and that's to make sure you never think you're at the top of it (conceit). The ladder extends below you forever and that's to make sure you never forget there is no 'crap' below you (conceit). Everyone on that ladder has something of value to add to everyone else on that ladder. Some people reach down to help you up and some people push up to help you climb. We're all in this together. 

But you must know where you are, (even in a radar analogy) before you can make any progress. What is moving forward in terms of writing? If you are at point 'a', how do you know what point 'b' is? And if you are at point 'b', how do you know what point 'c' is? ... And so on. You've got to know your weaknesses and your strengths. And in order to build on your strengths and strengthen your weaknesses, you have to know who to turn to for help.

If you don't know how good you are, you will never improve. On my ladder I look up to you, bdcharles and many others. That's not putting myself down. That's recognising you have the rung I need to climb and hopefully reach down a hand occasionally to help me up. In turn, I can hopefully do the same for others who recognise I have a rung they don't.


----------



## Tettsuo (Mar 12, 2021)

JBF said:


> From my vantage...there is is some value in recognizing that not everybody's working at the same level.


This can be taken even further. Not everyone is working on the same level of aspects of writing.

Some are great at dialogue
Some are great at description
Some are great at metaphors
Some are great at character development
Some are great at ...

It's difficult to imagine a hierarchy when the variables are so, varied. One person would excel at metaphors, another could eclipse them in dialogue. I agree that it's good to know which things about your writing needs work, what I have difficulty with is the idea that there is a ladder amongst so many that are basically equal on this site. Yes, there are those who are just starting and need help in all writing skills, but the majority of those here are equal, just not in every specific skill.

As for critique, that's an entirely different skill imo. Like editing, you can be great at this, but not a great writer. These are not skills that are transferable.


----------



## JBF (Mar 12, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> But you must know where you are, (even in a radar analogy) before you can make any progress.



That's why radar isn't the primary means of navigation within the airplane.  You fly the course on your paper chart.  Position checks are just a backup.  :wink:


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 12, 2021)

Tettsuo said:


> This can be taken even further. Not everyone is working on the same level of aspects of writing.
> 
> Some are great at dialogue
> Some are great at description
> ...



I acknowledged that though. You have to speak in general terms sometimes in order to establish a point. 




> But that's not to say that someone less competent than you can't give great advise. There are many layers to writing, and whilst you may be more competent 'overall', there may be some things the less competent writer is ahead of you on.


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## VRanger (Mar 12, 2021)

Taylor said:


> I also want to make the point, that writing is not a science.  What one contributor thinks is "better" writing or "crap" writing is only an opinion.  So even if you tried to create some kind of a "hierarchy", each person's hierarchy would look completely different.



That's only true when it's a matter of taste in style or subject. There IS ABSOLUTELY crap writing where the determination is NOT the product of opinion, and I've seen far too much of it when some beginners asked me to review their "masterpiece" on Amazon. When it's full of typos, wrong words, they can't keep character names straight, loaded with cliché, bad grammar even in exposition, ad nauseum: it's crap. You can't imagine how much of it I've seen, because you probably haven't been in the position of people actively landing it on your doorstep. LOL Any agents or editors who happen to be reading this have lived it, though.

Analysis of a piece of writing does have objective standards, as well as subjective.

You have the old saw of "first two million words are crap", although you'll find that count often put at one million, and I would hope it can be even less than that. This is often euphemized as "practice".   Not true for everyone, but true for most.


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## EternalGreen (Mar 12, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> I find it fascinating on a site that has 'awards', people find it 'heartbreaking' some people are more advanced than them.
> 
> For all those with more awards than me! I'm coming for YA!!!!
> 
> Come on, folks, you're all turning this into something it isn't.



The site has awards. Writing _as an art_ doesn't really.

Homer himself never won many awards. He was just a guy singing some poems he wrote.


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## VRanger (Mar 12, 2021)

Tettsuo said:


> This can be taken even further. Not everyone is working on the same level of aspects of writing.
> 
> Some are great at dialogue
> Some are great at description
> ...



Absolutely. Good writers will excel in some areas, and those will be different from one writer to the next. The important thing is that they not SUCK in some of the other areas. I've started books that had interesting stories, but I stopped because I'm not going to read through three typos a page. I have literally hundreds of other books TBR with equally interesting stories and no typos.

I've pointed out typo avalanches to writers who responded with, "Well, if you're going to focus on TYPOS, rather than my raw creative talent, you're being unfair". Nope, I'm not going to focus on either. Next. 

This is where the "promising writers" I mentioned earlier need to work on shoring up their skills. Because there is competition, and readers who value their time.


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## EternalGreen (Mar 12, 2021)

vranger said:


> Absolutely. Good writers will excel in some areas, and those will be different from one writer to the next. The important thing is that they not SUCK in some of the other areas. I've started books that had interesting stories, but I stopped because I'm not going to read through three typos a page. I have literally hundreds of other books TBR with equally interesting stories and no typos.
> 
> I've pointed out typo avalanches to writers who responded with, "Well, if you're going to focus on TYPOS, rather than my raw creative talent, you're being unfair". Nope, I'm not going to focus on either. Next.
> 
> This is where the "promising writers" I mentioned earlier need to work on shoring up their skills. Because there is competition, and readers who value their time.



How in the world is a book with 3 typos per page getting published?

That's the easiest thing in the world to fix! 

If you're self-publishing, just run it through an editing software than pay someone 60 bucks to fix what's left of the typos for you. Done.

Everybody fucks up. EVERYBODY makes typos. I remember my teenage existential crisis when I learned that "fancy" writers just have people whose job it is to hide that reality.


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## AGallagher (Mar 12, 2021)

Hey, good point. Do you have any suggestions of someone to pay "60 bucks to fix what's left of the typos"? I have editing software but I haven' found anybody reliable and to pay for a final typo edit.  Any suggestions/recommendations are welcome.  Thanks


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## VRanger (Mar 12, 2021)

EternalGreen said:


> How in the world is a book with 3 typos per page getting published?
> 
> That's the easiest thing in the world to fix!
> 
> ...



Typos go well beyond misspelled words, although somehow I see plenty of those. Often the misspelling is still a correctly spelled word, just not the word the writer meant. I'm quite certain the writer I mentioned reading last year (and gave up on) had spell check. He was also published through a small press which claimed to have edited the work. Yet his books were still rife with typos. It's simply sloppy, rushed work on both ends.


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## EternalGreen (Mar 12, 2021)

AGallagher said:


> Hey, good point. Do you have any suggestions of someone to pay "60 bucks to fix what's left of the typos"? I have editing software but I haven' found anybody reliable and to pay for a final typo edit.  Any suggestions/recommendations are welcome.  Thanks



You can find private editors for hire on social media or even right here on WFs.


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## Taylor (Mar 12, 2021)

vranger said:


> That's only true when it's a matter of taste in style or subject. There IS ABSOLUTELY crap writing where the determination is NOT the product of opinion, and I've seen far too much of it when some beginners asked me to review their "masterpiece" on Amazon. When it's full of typos, wrong words, they can't keep character names straight, loaded with cliché, bad grammar even in exposition, ad nauseum: it's crap. You can't imagine how much of it I've seen, because you probably haven't been in the position of people actively landing it on your doorstep. LOL Any agents or editors who happen to be reading this have lived it, though.
> 
> Analysis of a piece of writing does have objective standards, as well as subjective.
> 
> You have the old saw of "first two million words are crap", although you'll find that count often put at one million, and I would hope it can be even less than that. This is often euphemized as "practice".   Not true for everyone, but true for most.



Good response vranger!  My original post had "crap (SPAG removed.)" and then I wrongly took the parenthesis out, but it is important to define the word "crap".  Especially when there are novice writers on the site.  Tettsuo actually made the point better than me.  It's not linear.  Someone who has horrible grammar may have an amazing story to tell.  And from what I can see, fixing SPAG is easier than trying to dress up a dull story.  But that again is just my opinion.  It reminds me of the thread on "Good Writing vs, Good Story".  That one went on for weeks, and no definitive answer was provided.

To respond to AZ, I think awards are great, but they are only part of the picture.  How many amazing indie movies have never made it to the Oscars? 

I like where this discussion has gone.  It's an indication that there are critical minds at work here.   But I cringe when I read anything on the site that uses words like  "amateur", "less competent", "crap"...etc.  Some of these things we may think, but are better not to say.  I'm sorry, I think it's just the teacher in me.  

All of this discussion reminds me of my tennis club.  Very small club, so we all play together...all levels.   We want to be inclusive and still have fun.  But it's as hard for the weaker players to play the stronger player as it is for the stronger players to play with the weaker players.  So we have a system where we all draw a number for the first set.  Then, for the second set, winners move up, losers move down.  Then after the second set we do the same thing.  And usually, by the last set, the levels per court are somewhat in alignment. Not a perfect science, however, the great thing about this system is we never have to verbally state what level anyone is, or where they would sit on any ladder. Plus weaker players get a chance to play with stronger players to improve their game without feeling they are a nuisance. And of course, anyone in the club is welcome to organize their own private games with people they feel are at their level.  

With respect to getting critiques on this site or any critiques even from people you solicit, it is just that...someone's viewpoint.  If you wish to disregard certain advice, that's your prerogative, and part of your skill as a writer is to discern what's important to you.


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## Ibb (Mar 12, 2021)

Right, so: "How to Take Critique" is definitely April's LM theme, right? This has been one of the most entertaining threads I've ever read on this site, and I want to see stories about ladders, bludgeoned critics, drowned kittens and writers calling eachother crap while actively downing seven-plus glasses of wine. Preferably all within the first paragraph.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 12, 2021)

Taylor said:


> All of this discussion reminds me of my tennis club.  Very small club, so we all play together...all levels.   We want to be inclusive and still have fun.  But it's as hard for the weaker players to play the stronger player as it is for the stronger players to play with the weaker players.  So we have a system where we all draw a number for the first set.  Then, for the second set, winners move up, losers move down.  Then after the second set we do the same thing.  And usually, by the last set, the levels per court are somewhat in alignment. Not a perfect science, however, the great thing about this system is we never have to verbally state what level anyone is, or where they would sit on any ladder. Plus weaker players get a chance to play with stronger players to improve their game without feeling they are a nuisance. And of course, anyone in the club is welcome to organize their own private games with people they feel are at their level.



I can't agree with this analogy. I know it's trying to make the whole 'everyone participates' thing look palatable, but winners move up and losers move down sounds very derogatory. I mean, seriously, how are those poor losers going to feel about the concept of 'moving down'? And people are welcome to organise their own private games with people they feel are at their level? Sounds very elitist to me. Do they consider themselves too good to play with the lesser players? How do the lesser players feel about that too? 

Naaa, I much prefer the ladder analogy. Everyone is constantly moving up and nobody ever moves down. And everyone participates in the same game 

*Waits for the edited reply with only 'game' being quoted ...*


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## Taylor (Mar 12, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> I can't agree with this analogy. I know it's trying to make the whole 'everyone participates' thing look palatable, but winners move up and losers move down sounds very derogatory. I mean, seriously, how are those poor losers going to feel about the concept of 'moving down'? And people are welcome to organise their own private games with people they feel are at their level? Sounds very elitist to me. Do they consider themselves too good to play with the lesser players? How do the lesser players feel about that too?
> 
> Naaa, I much prefer the ladder analogy. Everyone is constantly moving up and nobody ever moves down. And everyone participates in the same game
> 
> *Waits for the edited reply with only 'game' being quoted ...*



Lesser players can organize their own games too so they don't have to feel "lesser", that's the point.  It goes both ways.  And it's not always the same people moving up and down.  Some days you have a good day and somedays you don't.   I see your intent with the ladder analogy, I think it just may be intimidating for people like me.   But hey...maybe I'll be more relevant on your new thread about education.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 12, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Lesser players can organize their own games too so they don't have to feel "lesser", that's the point.  It goes both ways.  And it's not always the same people moving up and down.  Some days you have a good day and somedays you don't.   I see your intent with the ladder analogy, I think it just may be intimidating for people like me.   But hey...maybe I'll be more relevant on your new thread about education.



It's only intimidating if you take it out of context. It's about understanding what your weaknesses and strengths are, and understanding what advise best helps you build on your strengths and strengthen your weaknesses. It's not about 'winners' and 'losers' and it certainly isn't about 'crap writers'. You just need to know where you stand on a site or in writing circles as a whole. You have to be honest with yourself otherwise you will never improve. 

When I first came to this site I was constantly getting PMs saying: 'You shouldn't be so hard on yourself. You're better than you think.' No, I'm not being hard on myself and know exactly how good I am. Do you not see? It's not an emotional thing, it's a 'what is is' thing.

Even the best writers on this site will still have someone they look up to and someone they will learn from. It's just a fact of life. It's reality.


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## Taylor (Mar 12, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> It's only intimidating if you take it out of context. It's about understanding what your weaknesses and strengths are, and understanding what advise best helps you build on your strengths and strengthen your weaknesses. It's not about 'winners' and 'losers' and it certainly isn't about 'crap writers'. You just need to know where you stand on a site or in writing circles as a whole. You have to be honest with yourself otherwise you will never improve.
> 
> When I first came to this site I was constantly getting PMs saying: 'You shouldn't be so hard on yourself. You're better than you think.' No, I'm not being hard on myself and know exactly how good I am. Do you not see? It's not an emotional thing, it's a 'what is is' thing.
> 
> Even the best writers on this site will still have someone they look up to and someone they will learn from.



Ok, I'm trying to see really! I guess you approach things differently than me. I've never been big on measuring, however, I do see that people can be inspired by others work, whether that be skills or creativity.  I used to be very complimentary of your writing and creativity and you took issue with that as well as you recall.       I do admire that you have such passion with your work.  (Don't get mad at me...)  I know I'm too serious...that's just who I am.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 12, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Ok, I'm trying to see really! I guess you approach things differently than me. I've never been big on measuring, however, I do see that people can be inspired by others work, whether that be skills or creativity.  I used to be very complimentary of your writing and creativity and you took issue with that as well as you recall.       I do admire that you have such passion with your work.  (Don't get mad at me...)  I know I'm too serious...that's just who I am.



What did I say to you before? Can you remember? I'm on that ladder with you. This isn't an emotion thing.

That was then, this is now 

Now let's put this behind us and let's be friends. Yes? We might not agree in the future, but that's fine. We can still be friends.


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## Taylor (Mar 12, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> What did I say to you before? Can you remember? I'm on that ladder. This isn't an emotion thing.
> 
> That was then, this is now
> 
> Now let's put this behind us and let's be friends. Yes? We might not agree in the future, but that's fine. We can still be friends.



Yes, I like the sound of that.  Let's be friends.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 12, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Yes, I like the sound of that.  Let's be friends.



Thank God.


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## PiP (Mar 12, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> Thank God.



This is why I LOVE our WF family. WE can 'Agree to Disagree'


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