# Religion in Writing.



## Rojack79 (Sep 7, 2019)

Other than a few movies over the years has anyone here or otherwise tried to portray God in there works of fiction and if so then how did you or thay go about portraying him?


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## Trollheart (Sep 7, 2019)

I write about God all the time, usually quite irreverently and humorously. Sometimes it's more a reference to a creator than actually naming God. In one of my (yet to be finished) novels I call him The Great Architect, and slightly corrupt the symbolism. Like, due to a mistranslation of the Bible, it's the Sacred Tree that's used as the symbol of The One True Church, not the cross. Also, the J-man becomes Haysus Mohmed, an amalgamation of the two central figures in opposing religions. You can always make up your own religion, god(s) etc of course. I guess it's when you specifically reference Christianity or Islam or whatever that you run the risk of alienating, even offending, a certain portion of your readership.


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## Rojack79 (Sep 7, 2019)

Trollheart said:


> You can always make up your own religion, god(s) etc of course. I guess it's when you specifically reference Christianity or Islam or whatever that you run the risk of alienating, even offending, a certain portion of your readership.



Well that's the thing, as a Christian myself I've had some very personal interactions with God so I figured that drawing on that would be a good spot to start. My main issue is that I only know of a few, (Like seriously only 3 or 4 series.), that even depict God as a character. I don't really care about offending my readers mostly because my story is going to be offensive by default. It's going to cover a lot of controversial subjects so that's a non issue for me.


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## Trollheart (Sep 7, 2019)

Then it's up to you how you portray him. The best I read was Anne Rice in "Memnoch the Devil", and even then it was more a suggestion than a description. You can go down the Simpsons/Family Guy route, and make him an old guy with a white beard in a robe, or the other extreme and make him a baby, even turn it round and make him into Satan (two sides of the one coin?) but in the end I feel personally that it's something of a mistake to try to, if you will, capture the essence of God. Even if you're a non-believer like me, I think everyone agrees that some concepts are better left at just that, concepts. Describing God as a man in a suit or a ball of gas is fine, but I think you definitely need to leave an element of ambiguity in it. Well, that would be my reading of it, anyway. Any stories in which I use God as a character, apart from one, I shy from describing him and only refer to him in the most general terms, usually not even as God. I use "the boss", "the big man", "himself", "Upstairs", "Top Management" etc.


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## luckyscars (Sep 7, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> has anyone here or otherwise tried to portray God in there works of fiction



Only in my autobiography.


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## Arrakis (Sep 8, 2019)

If mine story takes place in the real world, then I keep religion completely out of it, since it's such a touchy subject. I might have someone claim to be an Atheist, Buddhist, or whatever, but that's about it. If mine story takes place in a fantasy/sci-fi setting or genre, I might invent a whole new religion, but the "god" of said religion is usually just a powerful, dangerous human.


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## Megan Pearson (Sep 8, 2019)

Hi Trollheart and Rojack,

Regarding reader offence and whether or not to write God into your story, I think this just depends on the story you're telling. 

Does God appear in your story? Then write Him in! Likewise, does God not appear? Then, don't worry about it. 

I would be less concerned about worrying over offending or not offending people than I would be about being true to the story you have a desire to write. Audience is important, but what the audience wants is a good story. So, write a good story.


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## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord (Sep 8, 2019)

My biggest concern with this is not audience offense, but rather presuming what God would say/do in a given situation. He's God; I'm not. I've always been uncomfortable with books like The Shack or Lunch with Jesus or whatever, because they put words in God's mouth. 

I'm not saying it _can't _be done; Aslan in Chronicles of Narnia was okay because the fantasy universe provided some distance, his moments were usually brief, and he retained an air of mystery that I think is really important when depicting God (in a realistic way, that is). I'm also not saying I avoid it entirely, but I do tread carefully.


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## Phil Istine (Sep 8, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> Other than a few movies over the years has anyone here or otherwise tried to portray God in there works of fiction and if so then how did you or thay go about portraying him?



A number of my pieces have been, not so much about God (I'm an atheist), but about the perverted ideologies that can form from a belief in God.  I also recognise that healthy practices can evolve from a belief in God, but these seem less usual.

I had the misfortune to be raised in one of the wackier apocalyptic religions.  Such religions tend to attract wacky people.  When I no longer wished to participate, it led to me having to leave home at 16 with a suitcase and a couple of carrier bags of clothes.

It wasn't until more recent years (I'm now in my early 60s) that I realised the wealth of writing material this gave me.  Those deluded lunatics deprived me of an education.  It would be the greatest irony if I were to become rich and famous on the back of that by writing about it (yeah, dream on   ).

If you were to search through some of my poetry on here (I wouldn't!), you would find some attempts to address the issues.


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## epimetheus (Sep 8, 2019)

Various gods, including the Abrahamic one, have featured in my writing. I usually research the accompanying mythology associated with the god i am writing about.


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## Trollheart (Sep 8, 2019)

Yeah, I've only written one story in which God was treated seriously, and even then he was an old man who was living on Earth and had mostly forgotten who he was. Otherwise I tend to humanise him, have him making toast and burning it, forgetting to do things on his list (Monday: create alien race - damn! Forgot Saturday's task: create a planet for alien race!) or getting drunk, all the sorts of things that traditionally God should be be able to do, just to lampoon him, but hopefully without straying into the area of disrespect. I don't, to answer another query, worry about offending readers, as they should realise it's all in fun, and if they don't have a sense of humour that's their problem. I might be more concerned (if I were) about offending people when I slag off Trump (maybe they find a correlation between him and God?) but again, I don't worry about that. 

To properly and faithfully, and without humour, portray God though, again the only real example I can point to is Rice, who I think does an incredible job of evoking the idea of Heaven, and yet, God himself is still a pretty vague but powerful figure, which I think is how it should be. Take too much mystery away, reveal the man behind the curtain, and not only may your readership be disappointed, you may just lose any of the impact you want to create by including the world's most major starring role ever.


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## Phil Istine (Sep 8, 2019)

Oh yes, and I did write a flash fiction piece a couple of years back where God was a bar room drunk making a pig's ear out of designing the human race.  That was fun.


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## Ralph Rotten (Sep 8, 2019)

I have never actually had God as a character in any of my books, but I do touch on religion.
The Calizona series was written with a theme where the reader got to decide if the story was divine intervention or just damned good luck.
The lead character, ALex, thinks he is on a mission from God and uses that to justify killing any rapists or bad men in their town.
He feels that he gets a sin-pass when he kills villains.

In the latest book [under construction] he takes his mission on the road.
American Road Warrior.


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## Ralph Rotten (Sep 8, 2019)

Actually, I completely forgot about *Memoirs of a Timelord*.
In that book, the master timelord who is training Jenna imparts her a memory of what he saw when he travelled back to the beginning of time.
There were two Gods, and when they joined, they threw off a spark that became the Big Bang.
Apparently our universe is a hatchery for Gods.
Each galaxy is a god-fetus, built from the souls of every living being that dies. (EVERY living being, including plants, animals, amoebas...)
After enough souls fill the Guf, the God is born, tearing away from the physical plane (called ascension) leaving behind a red-shift galaxy.


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## Rojack79 (Sep 8, 2019)

ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord said:


> My biggest concern with this is not audience offense, but rather presuming what God would say/do in a given situation. He's God; I'm not. I've always been uncomfortable with books like The Shack or Lunch with Jesus or whatever, because they put words in God's mouth.
> 
> I'm not saying it _can't _be done; Aslan in Chronicles of Narnia was okay because the fantasy universe provided some distance, his moments were usually brief, and he retained an air of mystery that I think is really important when depicting God (in a realistic way, that is). I'm also not saying I avoid it entirely, but I do tread carefully.



Tread carefully. Ok got it memorized.


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## Rojack79 (Sep 8, 2019)

Trollheart said:


> Then it's up to you how you portray him. The best I read was Anne Rice in "Memnoch the Devil", and even then it was more a suggestion than a description. You can go down the Simpsons/Family Guy route, and make him an old guy with a white beard in a robe, or the other extreme and make him a baby, even turn it round and make him into Satan (two sides of the one coin?) but in the end I feel personally that it's something of a mistake to try to, if you will, capture the essence of God. Even if you're a non-believer like me, I think everyone agrees that some concepts are better left at just that, concepts. Describing God as a man in a suit or a ball of gas is fine, but I think you definitely need to leave an element of ambiguity in it. Well, that would be my reading of it, anyway. Any stories in which I use God as a character, apart from one, I shy from describing him and only refer to him in the most general terms, usually not even as God. I use "the boss", "the big man", "himself", "Upstairs", "Top Management" etc.



I can think of a few names to call him. One group calls him Father Sky so there's that.


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## Rojack79 (Sep 8, 2019)

Arrakis said:


> If mine story takes place in the real world, then I keep religion completely out of it, since it's such a touchy subject. I might have someone claim to be an Atheist, Buddhist, or whatever, but that's about it. If mine story takes place in a fantasy/sci-fi setting or genre, I might invent a whole new religion, but the "god" of said religion is usually just a powerful, dangerous human.



I actually have that as a plot point later on when some human believes he can do better than God. It's should be pretty cool to see him rise only to trip onhis own hubris.


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## Rojack79 (Sep 8, 2019)

Megan Pearson said:


> Hi Trollheart and Rojack,
> 
> Regarding reader offence and whether or not to write God into your story, I think this just depends on the story you're telling.
> 
> ...



Balancing out the tread carefully side of things I'll endeavour to write the best story that I can.


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## Rojack79 (Sep 8, 2019)

Phil Istine said:


> A number of my pieces have been, not so much about God (I'm an atheist), but about the perverted ideologies that can form from a belief in God.  I also recognise that healthy practices can evolve from a belief in God, but these seem less usual.
> 
> I had the misfortune to be raised in one of the wackier apocalyptic religions.  Such religions tend to attract wacky people.  When I no longer wished to participate, it led to me having to leave home at 16 with a suitcase and a couple of carrier bags of clothes.
> 
> ...



First, I do hope that your life is going a heck of a lot better than it was. Second while I've never really been to into poetry I will definitely stop on by to read some of yours. I'll never turn down a chance to learn more about the craft of writing even if it's not my normal cup of tea. (I find that I love a wide variety of teas.)


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## Rojack79 (Sep 8, 2019)

epimetheus said:


> Various gods, including the Abrahamic one, have featured in my writing. I usually research the accompanying mythology associated with the god i am writing about.



Oh trust me research is the last thing I need. Been doing that for the past 10+ years all of it on both Christianity and other religions of old. But more research is never a bad thing especially when it comes down to the small details.


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## shyla (Sep 10, 2019)

Someone will always get offended no matter what you write. Christians will offend atheists, atheists will offend Christians, and bigoted fundamentalists will offend everybody. Writing about God in any seriously theistic way in fiction is probably better done in Christian fiction genres. This is not to exclude other theist religions (Islam, Hinduism, new age spiritualism etc.) but the Christian fiction genre is much better developed in the English language than Muslim fiction, for example. Although if you plan on writing in Arabic, there IS such a genre as Muslim fiction.  I'm  Christian, so I would have a hard time enjoying a work of fiction that trivializes or refers obscenely to God, but if the point of referring to God is to express a alternative point of view in a truly thoughtful way, I would be open to that.


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## Rojack79 (Sep 10, 2019)

shyla said:


> Someone will always get offended no matter what you write. Christians will offend atheists, atheists will offend Christians, and bigoted fundamentalists will offend everybody. Writing about God in any seriously theistic way in fiction is probably better done in Christian fiction genres. This is not to exclude other theist religions (Islam, Hinduism, new age spiritualism etc.) but the Christian fiction genre is much better developed in the English language than Muslim fiction, for example. Although if you plan on writing in Arabic, there IS such a genre as Muslim fiction.  I'm  Christian, so I would have a hard time enjoying a work of fiction that trivializes or refers obscenely to God, but if the point of referring to God is to express a alternative point of view in a truly thoughtful way, I would be open to that.



For me i really want to showcase how a Christian A) would act in a world inhabited by real monsters and other mythological creatures & B) how they should act in general towards other's regardless of there race, religion, or skin tone.


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## luckyscars (Sep 10, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> For me i really want to showcase how a Christian A) would act in a world inhabited by real monsters and other mythological creatures & B) how they should act in general towards other's regardless of there race, religion, or skin tone.



OK so just some thoughts, and I come at this from a fairly neutral standpoint (not religious but not militantly atheistic - I don't care about religion much):

- The world, and the western world particularly, is increasingly non-religious. This is particularly the trend among younger and higher educated people. Those are also the demographics that tend to be into Fantasy fiction. So 'Christian fantasy' is probably already a niche and is even more likely to become one.

- Among self-identifying Christians, a growing trend in the west is toward non-denominational, 'come as you are' liberal versions of Christianity that does not necessarily follow dogma, particularly on more polarizing issues such as homosexuality, blasphemy, birth control, etc. 

- A lot of religiously inclined people these days consider themselves more 'spiritual' than 'biblical', they are into less restrictive interpretations on the 'Christian Life'. So are possibly less likely to be interested by Paulian 'this is what a Christian should do in this situation' takes.

- If the goal is to integrate 'Christian teachings' with Fantasy tropes and settings, I don't think that's a terrible idea, but it has been done. C.S Lewis is the most obvious example. In Lewis's case, it seems he understood the winds of change with religion and decided to be extremely light-handed with his approach. I don't think Lewis mentions Christianity once in his entire series, and the religious overtones don't become particularly strident until toward the end of the last book - its very subtle and you don't necessarily notice it's a Christian story until you reflect. What Lewis does is recreate Biblical themes through the actions of his characters using fantasy creatures (witches, talking animals, etc) as proxies. I think that's a good way to go, although of course it lacks some originality.

I think the key word here is 'subtle'. Nobody likes being smacked over the head with philosophy, even less so with Christian philosophy. Unless you are deliberately targeting the God Squad niche, I think you should avoid concrete references to that stuff. Generally readers don't want to feel indoctrinated.


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## shyla (Sep 10, 2019)

That definitely sounds interesting! Although if you are writing about how a Christian "should" act, this also has a very broad interpretive range, and can easily become preachy or accusatory. I'm sure you can find a way to show rather than tell.

Another example I just thought of that incorporates religion very artistically is Buckley's song "Hallelujah." He uses religious metaphors very heavily but anyone who is even slightly indoctrinated will recognize that the lyrical parallels to Biblical stories (David and Samson) are not being used literally. The singer's point of view also is clearly not the Biblical characters, so the mixture of religious tropes with a contemporary voice gives quite a moving perspective on what love means. Lots and lots has been written by other folks who enjoyed analyzing the lyrics, but anyways it's another example that came to mind.


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## seigfried007 (Sep 10, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> Other than a few movies over the years has anyone here or otherwise tried to portray God in there works of fiction and if so then how did you or thay go about portraying him?


Bruce Almighty and Evan Almighty depict God as Morgan Freeman, but they're actually fairly respectful all things considered. 

Pullman's His Dark Materials series also depicts God (but you might not like the depiction, and the main characters really do go on a quest to kill God)

I think it's Final Fantasy 5 that takes on God. I love FF 15 though because it's basically a Christ story (don't want to ruin it, but you can go DEEP on that storyline regarding Christ and his disciples, Christ's relationship with the Church, the rise of Christianity, the fall of the Roman Empire due to Germanic/Norse barbarians, and a bunch of other stuff). Plus, it's an awesome bromance and has a lot of really poignant or humorous moments, and is just plain fun. And it does it all without saying _anything_ directly about God or Christianity--it's all there for you to figure out on your own, but it's still the best "Christian" story to come out of Japan I've ever seen. 

A lot of isekai anime takes on God (MC dies, gets to talk to God, gets sent to another world/reincarnated). Portrayals of the Christian God in Japanese media are going to be pretty different from portrayals in most Western Christian-dominated cultures. Tanya the Evil comes to mind as a more serious depiction than most, which tend to be humorous (and even Being X/God could be seen as a more humorous take due to the character interactions between it and the atheist man who is being reincarnated as Tanya).

I can't recall being so irreverent as portraying God, but I have taken cracks at the Devil (both humorous and serious). 

Regarding religion more generally, I've taken it on most notably in that lost sci-fi series, but it's also shown up in Pinocchio. There's a fair amount of religious iconography/imagery and Biblical references in it because (apparently) at least some of these characters were "raised in the church."


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## SueC (Sep 10, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> Other than a few movies over the years has anyone here or otherwise tried to portray God in there works of fiction and if so then how did you or thay go about portraying him?



The title of your post asks about "religion," but the post itself talks about God. Not necessarily the same, imo, but I would like to address writing about religion in a story.

My current project deals with the comings and goings of a Catholic family, living in Chicago. I left Chicago when I was nineteen, married, and never moved back. But my main character, Maggie, in my story is modeled after the life I lived there. She is the age I am now, living in my old neighborhood, going to my church and living in the apartment building of my childhood on the north side. She attended the same Catholic grammar school and high school as I did. So, it seemed only natural to me to portray varying degrees of faithfulness in her family and friends who also reside in Rogers Park, and hang out with Maggie. Her family owns a popular neighborhood bar. I have not created any overly religious characters; they just live life, go to Mass on Sunday, but there is no discussion of God in any of it. I have mentioned seeing a rosary prayed by others in church, and going to confession, but not as "my character must do these things because she is Catholic" type of thing. My character swears now and then and likes a shot of Jamison's with her eggnog. I know it is risky having any religious elements at all, but I have seen other faiths portrayed in fiction, and I thought - why not? 

This has been the most fun to write of all the projects I have done, because I know this subject! I know what it feels like to be in a church all alone, to sit where I sat when I received my first communion, and how this church sounds when people are signing. But this is only one element of my story - the book itself deals with death, deception and lies. 

I think I am going to be proud of this work when I am done, which is at about the halfway mark. Fingers crossed.


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## seigfried007 (Sep 10, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> For me i really want to showcase how a Christian A) would act in a world inhabited by real monsters and other mythological creatures & B) how they should act in general towards other's regardless of there race, religion, or skin tone.


Okay, this is going to be long... because the faith's more complicated than I gave it credit for when I started this post. Hopefully, you can get some good ideas from it regarding faith in a world with non-humans, competing religions, foreign gods, and how faiths change over time. 

I'm not sure if this is or will ever show up in the Forbidden People series, but there is a Christian Church on the non-Earth planet where the story takes place. Really long story, but the Bible was pretty much between humanity's flight from Earth and when the story takes place. The ship still has a digital copy, but it's derelict and its location has been lost, so all of the human faiths only exist in "modern" times as what the people still remember from the time the ship was functional (all the people were born from the ship because human cryo wasn't operational; ergo, it gestated the humans and then had to teach them about science, art, culture, religion, etc.). But this means that no copies of any religious text are available to humanity, which nevertheless attempts to form religions on what it can remember from the oral history.

Thus, the Church of Helve is very much a Christian faith, but it's based on a super holey understanding of the Bible. Said church does exist in a world with non-human races (knyrans and Alasei/Ikoi). It also exists in a world which has some degree of magic/powers which cannot be understood by modern science. So the faith has to deal with this and takes different approaches throughout its history.

Knyrans and their gods are the original inhabitants of the world. Most of the knyran gods were blown out of a couple dimensions and are frozen in time/space (magic experiment intended to gain all wisdom and traverse time in either direction in perpetuity--went wrong due to interference from a bonafide Fallen angel who's been passing himself off as one of their number. Really long story, but he's the reason the other gods went out-of-order and also the reason the texts of Earth religions have no bite to them anymore). Knyrans (and other extinct races) were a slave race used in proxy wars between their gods, but even without their gods, they still have an ingrained understanding culturally of said gods, so they're resistant to the Christian notion of monotheism. Plus, there are so many artifacts of this older time--impossible architecture included--that humanity must reckon with the proof that said creatures exist or did exist at some point, and this is a difficult thing for many persons in the faith to deal with. Worse yet, the gods can't move necessarily, and they're found in an especially dangerous location filled with perverse magic that really will kill people--but they can be seen. 

There's also the more powerful Servants to deal with (other beings created by the gods--many of which have phenomenal powers, and which are only short of being gods themselves because they're bound to the wills of the gods which created them--otherwise, some of these things are empowered to do damn near anything and are basically just gods which are enslaved to other gods). Those things still exist and many of them could wipe out humanity without much effort, so the only thing saving humanity is their lack of desire to do so. The coping mechanism versus these creatures is one of blissful ignorance and refusing to acknowledge their true power (which is fairly easy since these creatures tend to have little personal ambitions as slaves awaiting orders which never come because their masters aren't able to give them anymore). 

The Alasei/Ikoi (a cat-people race) were actually engineered by the Japanese as a cultural experiment and left to form their own civilization on this planet (Earth was still habitable and safe then, so those guys went home--and came back to found a different country on this planet once they realized that Earth was no longer safe). The Ikoi/Alasei practice something closer to Shinto and Buddhism. 

So, the Church of Helve is founded on a world full of gods, "monsters," competing religions, and obvious magic. As the faith spread, it came in contact with all of this stuff and had to adjust. The western border of this faith's territory border a realm chock full of magic (the forest haunted by those still gods--tons of magic and magic creatures in there). 

Most notable inhabitants which affect humanity in that forest are the Smiling, a subrace of knyrans descended from two of those Servants (the rapacious, time-warping Greenskeeper and The Red Woman, a comparatively mindless Servant empath who runs around healing people, having sex with them, and causing plants to grow everywhere she goes; they were both gardeners of the old gods)... so they're a race of hive-minded, natural empaths and healers who exist in a state of perpetual childlike innocence (have no conscious thoughts, language or culture but do have emotions) and run around naked, warping time, having sex with everyone (whether you wanted it or not--you'll want it if they find you because they'll sweep you up in this hive-minded tide of total rapture and innocence).  They not only leave a lot of retarded half-knyran babies in their wake, they also cause a kind of insanity because--once that hive-minded rapture is experienced--the person will always eventually want it again and wander into the forest seeking it out, but the magic involved often warps time... so people come out as decrepit or small children sometimes (most often they age rapidly and die). 

For a faith which is big on chastity and against non-miracle magic, the Smiling are a huge threat, and given that the first knyrans the faith ever contacted were Smiling... yeah, anti-knyran bias is a huge deal. Smiling are viewed very differently by different human cultures--from a "fact of life" like the weather, to "incubi/succubi out to steal your souls;" from nature spirits to demons. Even one knyrans of sound mind were contacted (with advanced technology, no less), the faith still dealt with them like they were rapacious idiots. Knyrans are not allowed into the faith or its buildings throughout a lot of the faith's history (it goes in phases and by local cultural practices). More recent history involves a rash of "knyran madness" which causes knyrans of sound mind to go insane and rape people (the gods insisted their slaves breed to replenish numbers lost in war--so, if they haven't made babies by a certain age, the choice gets taken out of their hands... and minds). Madness is only a big deal in territories settled by the faith, however, because of the faith's insistence on knyrans waiting till more advanced ages to settle down--if not enforcing celibacy on them because of their faith after induction to priesthood or in convents. 

The faith has had to wrestle with the notion of humanity versus non-humanity in another important way which you're going to have to consider: Who did Christ really die for? If the faith thinks that Christ only died for humans, then non-human races are going to be treated with more hostility and not allowed into the faith. If God is presumed to have created all races, then the other races are also creatures made by God and thus entitled to at least as much respect as animals, but will likely be treated in a similar manner to humans of a different, competing faith. If Christ is presumed to have died for all creatures with souls (human-level intellect is probably the standard), then non-humans will probably be allowed into the faith--and actively recruited to it via missionaries, even. Each denomination is likely to come up with totally different  answers and approaches.


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## luckyscars (Sep 10, 2019)

SueC said:


> The title of your post asks about "religion," but the post itself talks about God. Not necessarily the same, imo, but I would like to address writing about religion in a story.
> 
> My current project deals with the comings and goings of a Catholic family, living in Chicago. I left Chicago when I was nineteen, married, and never moved back. But my main character, Maggie, in my story is modeled after the life I lived there. She is the age I am now, living in my old neighborhood, going to my church and living in the apartment building of my childhood on the north side. She attended the same Catholic grammar school and high school as I did. So, it seemed only natural to me to portray varying degrees of faithfulness in her family and friends who also reside in Rogers Park, and hang out with Maggie. Her family owns a popular neighborhood bar. I have not created any overly religious characters; they just live life, go to Mass on Sunday, but there is no discussion of God in any of it. I have mentioned seeing a rosary prayed by others in church, and going to confession, but not as "my character must do these things because she is Catholic" type of thing. My character swears now and then and likes a shot of Jamison's with her eggnog. I know it is risky having any religious elements at all, but I have seen other faiths portrayed in fiction, and I thought - why not?
> 
> ...



As a religiously-disinterested person I am of the view that religion in a novel needs to be handled similarly to sex stuff and violence stuff. It’s not all that different at all actually: Like sex and violence it’s a question of how personal feelings manifest in reality and like sex and violence it’s something that is, or should be, drawn largely from the the characters personality.

What I am saying is that religion itself is not interesting. Without personal, humanistic context it is empty words, empty symbols, empty slogans, just like without personal, humanistic context a sex scene is just two rather ugly organs bumping together and a murder scene is just a knife/bullet/whatever and blood. Like sex and violence religion is something that has been inflated with meaning. But without the human side it is bullshit - pretty sure Jesus actually said something along those lines Himself.

So, I like the idea of religion as a backdrop in a family saga, but I would want some sense of what place it has in a story, especially if there are no overly religious characters.

An extreme example of a “religious novel” - is Atwood’s Handmaids Tale: Gilead is a theocracy and the entire story is based around the idea of Christianity being used as cover for appallingly immoral acts. Atwood doesn’t criticize religion directly nor does she go into the subject of atheism, but there is a strong argument against religiosity nonetheless, simply through demonstrating the incompatibility between fundamentalist Christian beliefs and common decency.

No idea how you would write a story promoting the opposite argument though. Again, I don’t feel particularly strongly on this issue, but it seems to me evident that religion isn’t a net positive force in today’s word. Not when it comes to morality, I think that argument has actually kind of been superseded at this point. There are incredibly few occasions I can think of in modern history when the human race has benefited from religious people acting according to the direction of their religion, usually it’s rather the opposite, and even in fantasy it needs to ring true to the unconverted otherwise you’re quite literally preaching to the choir. So I just don’t know how that would work. But good luck with it.


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## Rojack79 (Sep 10, 2019)

Ok so there is a lot to unpack here for all of you and your posts so far. I do have some work stuff to fix today so if I don't get back to you that is why. Have to run to the store and by another Ethernet cord.


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## seigfried007 (Sep 10, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> As a religiously-disinterested person I am of the view that religion in a novel needs to be handled similarly to sex stuff and violence stuff. It’s not all that different at all actually: Like sex and violence it’s a question of how personal feelings manifest in reality and like sex and violence it’s something that is, or should be, drawn largely from the the characters personality.
> 
> What I am saying is that religion itself is not interesting. Without personal, humanistic context it is empty words, empty symbols, empty slogans, just like without personal, humanistic context a sex scene is just two rather ugly organs bumping together and a murder scene is just a knife/bullet/whatever and blood. Like sex and violence religion is something that has been inflated with meaning. But without the human side it is bullshit - pretty sure Jesus actually said something along those lines Himself.


^^^ This is pretty fascinating, Lucky. What a neat way to look at it. 

In a way, though, all of a story is like this. Without context, you've just got people you don't care about doing stuff that doesn't affect you. 

Regarding faith as a positive force, I think you're mistaken. It's very easy to get that impression, so I don't blame you in the slightest for it (100% empathize, actually). I was raised in the church, but I was also slut-shamed by church members for being raped as a child, so my perspective is going to be odd. I'm never going to think poorly of someone for having a terrible or lackluster impression of the church. Churches are full of people, and people are flawed... so churches are really flawed. 

Churches are also full of people who will give you the shirt off their backs, the money from their wallets (even if they're super poor and need that money to put food on the table), even a room at their home, if you need a place to crash. Churches are full of people who send off missionaries to sometimes hostile places in order to build schools, hospitals, houses, lavatories. Churches are full of people who knit blankets and make soup for homeless shelters. They're full of people who do their utmost for His Highest. 

Overwhelmingly, they're a force for positive change because the teachings in the faith promote active empathy and selflessness. It's just that all the little things aren't publicized like the big offensive things. Big things make news, and bad things make news--but the overwhelming good the church does is done through all these smaller things, and the goodness is so everyday that it's never going to make news. Habitual goodness just isn't newsworthy. So nobody really talks about it. 

Christianity is woven into civilization at this point, in the sense that a lot of its ideals are ideal for a civilization to prosper (even if said civilization is not Christian). If everyone could abide by the rules in it, humanity would be in a far nicer state. But humans are human, so we can't live up to the ideals presented in the text. The text is also long and deep, and people have studied it their whole lives and still not understood it all that well because it's both frightening complex and simple. 

Here's a great song about that Faith vs Works issue. While it could easily be super offensive to Christians, I take it as a call to action because I recognize why someone outside the faith would dislike the whole "thoughts and prayers" thing. 

[video=youtube;ArWnbapF9rM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArWnbapF9rM[/video]


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## luckyscars (Sep 10, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> Churches are also full of people who will give you the shirt off their backs, the money from their wallets (even if they're super poor and need that money to put food on the table), even a room at their home, if you need a place to crash. Churches are full of people who send off missionaries to sometimes hostile places in order to build schools, hospitals, houses, lavatories. Churches are full of people who knit blankets and make soup for homeless shelters. They're full of people who do their utmost for His Highest.



Plenty of places that aren’t churches are full of those sorts of people as well. It seems obvious to me it is not religion that supplies the goodness in people - it’s people that supply the goodness in religion. Which goes back to the point I was making about humanist context.

Unless one wants to make the argument that the only reason some missionaries build schools or whatever is to make God happy - well fine, but I don’t believe that for a second. I believe the sort of people you are describing would be good people either way, probably doing much the same (or better) under a secular organization. I actually think it does those people somewhat of a disservice to attribute their good deeds, their efforts, to a religion in which the vast majority of the congregation who hear the same teachings do nothing beneficial whatsoever.

But also....I’m not really down for a debate on it.


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## Trollheart (Sep 10, 2019)

shyla said:


> Someone will always get offended no matter what you write. Christians will offend atheists, atheists will offend Christians, and bigoted fundamentalists will offend everybody. Writing about God in any seriously theistic way in fiction is probably better done in Christian fiction genres. This is not to exclude other theist religions (Islam, Hinduism, new age spiritualism etc.) but the Christian fiction genre is much better developed in the English language than Muslim fiction, for example. Although if you plan on writing in Arabic, there IS such a genre as Muslim fiction.  *I'm  Christian, so I would have a hard time enjoying a work of fiction that trivializes or refers obscenely to God*, but if the point of referring to God is to express a alternative point of view in a truly thoughtful way, I would be open to that.


Interesting. Does that include handling God in a humorous, possibly tongue-in-cheek/slightly disrespectful way? If so, don't read my stories. To me - and I don't wish to offend you or anyone else who has strong religious beliefs; you're entitled to hold those, just as I'm entitled not to - religion in general is so ridiculous that it deserves to be lampooned. So I do. My sister, on the other hand, is very religious, but can watch God being portrayed as an old man on The Simpsons and not take offence. I wonder where the line is?



seigfried007 said:


> Bruce Almighty and Evan Almighty depict God as Morgan Freeman, but they're actually fairly respectful all things considered.
> 
> Pullman's His Dark Materials series also depicts God (but you might not like the depiction, and the main characters really do go on a quest to kill God)
> 
> ...


Been there, done that. Both.


SueC said:


> The title of your post asks about "religion," but the post itself talks about God. Not necessarily the same, imo, but I would like to address writing about religion in a story.
> 
> My current project deals with the comings and goings of a Catholic family, living in Chicago. I left Chicago when I was nineteen, married, and never moved back. But my main character, Maggie, in my story is modeled after the life I lived there. She is the age I am now, living in my old neighborhood, going to my church and living in the apartment building of my childhood on the north side. She attended the same Catholic grammar school and high school as I did. So, it seemed only natural to me to portray varying degrees of faithfulness in her family and friends who also reside in Rogers Park, and hang out with Maggie. Her family owns a popular neighborhood bar. I have not created any overly religious characters; they just live life, go to Mass on Sunday, but there is no discussion of God in any of it. I have mentioned seeing a rosary prayed by others in church, and going to confession, but not as "my character must do these things because she is Catholic" type of thing. My character swears now and then and likes a shot of Jamison's with her eggnog. I know it is risky having any religious elements at all, but I have seen other faiths portrayed in fiction, and I thought - why not?
> 
> ...


Best of luck with it.


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## seigfried007 (Sep 10, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> Plenty of places that aren’t churches are full of those sorts of people as well. It seems obvious to me it is not religion that supplies the goodness in people - it’s people that supply the goodness in religion. Which goes back to the point I was making about humanist context.
> 
> Unless one wants to make the argument that the only reason some missionaries build schools or whatever is to make God happy - well fine, but I don’t believe that for a second. I believe the sort of people you are describing would be good people either way, probably doing much the same (or better) under a secular organization. I actually think it does those people somewhat of a disservice to attribute their good deeds, their efforts, to a religion in which the vast majority of the congregation who hear the same teachings do nothing beneficial whatsoever.
> 
> But also....I’m not really down for a debate on it.




Just so you know, I'm not really writing all of this stuff for you so much as other persons on the board (particularly the OP and SueC who are actually trying to write about Christianity). 

***Edited to add: I'm trying to spark some ideas and hopefully illuminate a new angle. Get some writing juices going. I totally respect atheism, and you're certainly free to practice it or whatever other faith you want. I'm not trying to defend Christianity as something more valid or worthwhile than other faiths so much as I'm trying to maybe clear up misunderstandings which are common IRL and fiction. While misunderstandings can make for excellent fiction, I don't get the impression the OP is after them, and frankly, I think it works better in writing to know what you're talking about and then totally take it another way, if that makes any sense. Offend people on purpose, willfully pervert an idea, lampoon something others take seriously, what-have-you.***

Christianity necessarily involves a story about the human condition relative to the ideal. It fundamentally accepts that human nature cannot be changed; people cannot attain perfection, cannot be 100% blameless, and despite our best intentions, we will always be tempted to do selfish things which go against the collective good. People are selfish assholes by nature; selfish keeps you alive, so it makes sense that we're innately selfish (think of it from an evolutionary standpoint... or not). 

So, Christianity gives a lot of helpful illustrations of selflessness to inspire people to help the collective. It's about the good of society as as whole instead of the good of the individual. It just so happens that selflessness is actually pretty good for someone's emotional well-being--does great things for us emotionally and psychologically (boosts immune function, alleviates depression, increases pain tolerance, lots of stuff), so it's also good for the individual, but in a very different way from selfish behavior. 

So there's a selfish vs selfless conflict, but also a individual vs collective dynamic to the faith. Christianity inspires people to think more about the welfare of others, so it promotes selfless and collectivist thinking while also baiting along the selfish individual with promises of social acceptance and structure, security in this world and the next, and lots of other stuff from the psychological benefits that come from having a true faith to the fulfillment of physical needs through the charity provided by believers. 

Then you've got the one example of human perfection: the Christ figure. He's not just a high bar to jump over; He's an impossible bar. But being an impossible bar to surpass just makes Him inspiring for Christians, who are called to be Christlike. We're called to attempt a spiritual transformation into this ideal--all while knowing we're never going to get there. Ever. We know it's impossible. We know we'll fail. 

It's a difficult thing to reconcile, and not everyone can deal with it. People want to get prideful and think they're doing alright, and that's where the really bad shit happens in Christianity. Anyone who thinks they're a "good Christian" is deceiving themselves because there's no such thing as a good Christian. To think one's attained perfection or close enough to it is to stop trying and to be fatally mistaken. 

There's no such thing as a good person by nature. People have to be taught to share, to care about others, to not be selfish assholes. Christianity provides a lot of useful illustrations for proper behavior in large social groups. It provides a cultural framework and instills ideals which benefit society (even if people cannot live up to them all). Hence, a lot of very wise atheists advocate for Christianity because it's such a good tool to keep the populace happy, healthy and functioning. 

Christianity has been used to reform all kinds of awful people because it inspires them to be better people. It's part of why acknowledging a higher power is part of so many 12-step programs (that work!). Forgiveness and grace are huge portions of Christianity--just as judgment and conviction are; and both of these aspects are very helpful for people with burdened consciences. 

In most respects, your lazy Christians-in-name-only are lazy because they're not conflicted and don't understand the magnitude of relief and inspiration someone with a tremendously burdened conscience might feel at hearing the exact same message. Happy heathens are harder to convert, and lazy Christians are hard to shake up into a deeper faith because they don't feel like they've done anything terribly wrong to offend God. 

Same artist from the song I posted above also wrote "Judith," in which he talks about this very thing: "It's not like you killed someone. It's not like you drove the hateful spear into his side." Said song is made that much more poignant when realizing the writer was raised in the faith and is talking about his mother who still clings to her faith despite being paralyzed (even though he's lost his faith, possibly in part due to the hand God dealt his mother). "Wings for Marie/10,000 Days" is a sequel song(s) of sorts to "Judith" and deals with his wrestling in the faith after his mother dies. 

Christianity constantly calls for continued improvement of the self. There is literally no end to the spiritual journey in life until one dies (and possibly not even then) because the standard is so high. That high standard is either going to be inspiring, or it's going to crush the person (and it will likely do both at different points).


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## Rojack79 (Sep 10, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> Then don't debate it, Lucky. Feel free to discuss it, or feel free to shut up about it and keep your opinions to yourself. No one's forcing you to debate.
> 
> But it's... _unadvised..._ to walk into a conversation about Christianity, talk like you know what you're talking about, tell the people in that faith that they don't know what they're talking about, and then tell them that you're not down for a discussion after all. Don't like our peaches, don't shake our tree, buddy
> 
> ...



Wow Seigfried you've touched on the whole concept of the book, took a huge hammer to that insurmountable nail and drove it in. So out of curiosity how come your not a minister or running your own church? You have a very deep and clear understanding of Christianity from what I've read. Sorry for this somewhat discombobulated post/reply by the way.


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## Trollheart (Sep 10, 2019)

I guess to some extent what I have a problem with is not the religion per se: I think everyone will acknowledge that Jesus (whether he existed or not, whether he was/is the son of God or not) was a pretty cool guy, with some universal attitudes and a message that can't be disparaged, or to put it in the words of the late Douglas Adams, "one man who was nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to one another for a change". The problem, for me (and I have to stress this is only my personal opinion, though I'm sure others hold it too) is what people pervert religion (any religion) into: if you read "Memnoch the Devil" you'll see Rice rails against the wars, injustices, murders, crusades, prejudices, hatreds and all the other bad stuff carried out in the name of religion or a specific God. Even, as she acidly notes, by one group of Christians to another. It's the damage done in the name of religion - persecution of the Jews, suicide bombers, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition etc - that make me distrust and want to have nothing to do with organised religion, most of which was not spoken of by Jesus, according to the Bible. Men - imperfect vessels, as you point out, siegfred, make their own interpretations of what Jesus meant, as long as they serve their own particular agenda.

There's no arguing there's great good in religion, but there's also the potential for great evil, the latter of which has sadly been realised on so many occasions down through the ages.


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## Rojack79 (Sep 10, 2019)

So in an effort to save time and post space I'll try and condence my reply to everyone so far into this one post. So my stance on portraying God in fiction is this, be respectful of the bible and Christianity in general. 

For my book I do want to keep the mystery of God around and alive but I'm  Also going to use some of my own personal exsperances to help flesh out how God works in our everday lives by giving the Christian MC a very personal relationship with God, i.e. when he asks for divine help he's going to get it either in a literal in your face kind of way or a more subtle discreet way.

 Also I have to wonder about his plot armor. I was thinking of giving the MC pretty much immunity to being shot because of his protection from God but my one question is if he'd need it seeing as the guns are not going to be all that accurate at all. I mean the main thing that I was going for was making him immune to bullets and other projectiles but when it comes down to melee he'd have to rely on his skill. 

Would this make sense and be realistic or is it to much plot armor?


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## Rojack79 (Sep 10, 2019)

Trollheart said:


> I guess to some extent what I have a problem with is not the religion per se: I think everyone will acknowledge that Jesus (whether he existed or not, whether he was/is the son of God or not) was a pretty cool guy, with some universal attitudes and a message that can't be disparaged, or to put it in the words of the late Douglas Adams, "one man who was nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to one another for a change". The problem, for me (and I have to stress this is only my personal opinion, though I'm sure others hold it too) is what people pervert religion (any religion) into: if you read "Memnoch the Devil" you'll see Rice rails against the wars, injustices, murders, crusades, prejudices, hatreds and all the other bad stuff carried out in the name of religion or a specific God. Even, as she acidly notes, by one group of Christians to another. It's the damage done in the name of religion - persecution of the Jews, suicide bombers, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition etc - that make me distrust and want to have nothing to do with organised religion, most of which was not spoken of by Jesus, according to the Bible. Men - imperfect vessels, as you point out, siegfred, make their own interpretations of what Jesus meant, as long as they serve their own particular agenda.
> 
> There's no arguing there's great good in religion, but there's also the potential for great evil, the latter of which has sadly been realised on so many occasions down through the ages.



Oh boy that evil in religion is actually the flipside other side of this book. That is something that I've not really seen touched upon or at the very least no one has called out religion for as far as I know. I mean there may be a book or movie out there but I haven't come across it yet. I honestly think it's something that we need to do from time to time. I'm against all forms of evil even it is done supposedly in "Gods" name.


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## luckyscars (Sep 10, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> Then don't debate it, Lucky. Feel free to discuss it, or feel free to shut up about it and keep your opinions to yourself. No one's forcing you to debate. But it's... _unadvised..._ to walk into a conversation about Christianity, talk like you know what you're talking about, tell the people in that faith that they don't know what they're talking about, and then tell them that you're not down for a discussion after all. Don't like our peaches, don't shake our tree, buddy Just so you know, I'm not really writing all of this stuff for you so much as other persons on the board (particularly the OP and SueC who are actually trying to write about Christianity).



Snipping here since I cannot be bothered to read or respond to the whole diatribe. 

Actually, Siegfried, the reason I am not debating religion is simply because doing so is explicitly against forum rules. You may want to acquaint yourself with those.

I addressed the OP sufficiently. Job done. I give not a fig about your extraneous opinions as to what I say or how I choose to say it.


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## Phil Istine (Sep 10, 2019)

*MOD NOTE:  Debates are not permitted on the forum but discussions are.  If anyone knows where one starts and the other ends, please don't bother letting me know.
Also, to no-one in particular, let's keep this respectful everyone.
Thanks.*


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## velo (Sep 10, 2019)

*SUPERVISOR NOTE

It is a correct statement that debating religion itself is out of bounds for the forum.  However, having a discussion on how religion is portrayed and can impact readers is entirely appropriate.  It's a fine line that I think this thread has stepped over it a couple times.  

I am encouraging everyone in the thread to keep this conversation about writing about religion and not any specific or general concept of religion.  We are taking no action at this time but are watching this thread closely.  

Thanks.  *


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## velo (Sep 10, 2019)

Ah, Phil beat me to it!


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## Phil Istine (Sep 10, 2019)

velo said:


> Ah, Phil beat me to it!



Two braincells are better than one.


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## velo (Sep 10, 2019)

Phil Istine said:


> Two braincells are better than one.



Well then, in that you are clearly my superior as I only have one.


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## luckyscars (Sep 10, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> I'm against all forms of evil even it is done supposedly in "Gods" name.



Out of curiosity, how do you determine what is or isn't evil in the context of this story...and how do you make sure it aligns with your prospective readers'?

If you're doing it in a Biblical context...well, the Bible says a lot of stuff. Most Christians don't live their lives according to the entirety of Biblical teaching. Those that do are Fundamentalists and I am assuming you're not one of those. 

So are you basing it on a particular reading? C.S Lewis's was straight Anglican, which is incredibly flexible (that's the polite way of putting it) as far as what parts of the Bible it cherry picks, but at least it meant he was consistent with a real-world version of 'Christianity'. Or is it more of an individual philosophy you have created? 

If the latter, I would come back to the question in the first paragraph: How will you address the more divisive issues that are part of inter-faith debate? For instance, how will you address the issue of relationships? I assume your characters will likely have at least one love interest (?) Will the Christianity play a role in the ensuing romance and, if so, on what basis? I assume your good guys end up killing bad guys. Well that might be fine for a lot of denominations - just war, etc - but it wouldn't sit well with others. Quakers, for instance.

Or will you perhaps not touch that stuff at all? You could probably avoid a lot of the contentious stuff, but then I would question whether this book carries much of a Christian message at all. Is it a CHRINO (Christian In Name Only) like, say, Bruce Almighty when the use of religion is more a plot device and superficial scene-set than anything that addresses actual Christian problems...or are you trying to actually enlighten people? I'm not saying either approach is better, only that you should probably decide just how religious this is going to be and make sure you have the appropriate theological knowledge to approach it correctly.


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## seigfried007 (Sep 10, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> Wow Seigfried you've touched on the whole concept of the book, took a huge hammer to that insurmountable nail and drove it in. So out of curiosity how come your not a minister or running your own church? You have a very deep and clear understanding of Christianity from what I've read. Sorry for this somewhat discombobulated post/reply by the way.



Because I'm a shitty Christian. 

I'm in a long phase of wrestling with and trying to ignore God, even. It's one thing to know in your head and in your heart that something is true and good; but it's another thing to feel it and live it. I'm more crushed than inspired by those high bars, and I've always been that way. 

I also have the most terrible people skills and social anxieties, so an position where people look at me--especially with the kind of gravity given to ministers--isn't something I'm capable of taking. 

Ministers aren't just looked at for guidance, they become _surrogate God_ to a congregation. That's a high bar for expectations--and one a minister is destined to fail. And when he fails, it's that much more tempting to cover up the fault and pretend it didn't happen or doesn't exist. Because he's surrogate God, and God has no faults, if that makes any sense. 

This is part of why pedophilia gets covered up in some churches: nobody wants to admit this good shepherd of the Lord's people, this brave, selfless man who's crusaded so hard so long for the will of God is totally molesting kids. The flaw is so huge as to seem unbelievable. And when that flaw gets exposed, people leave the church, and they take their money with them, and oftentimes, they leave the faith. Souls are "lost." So, with that kind of weight riding on the perception of a minister's infallibility, the deeds get covered up "for the greater good." 

A cousin of mine had issues like this with a respected deacon in her church who liked "special prayer times." Man raped who even knows how many children, but nobody said anything, and he died respected in the community because no one ever told on him. Meanwhile, my cousin was exhibiting all kinds of problem behaviors and getting harshly disciplined at home for them because she couldn't speak out against him. She eventually left the faith--not just soft-core atheist but actively crusading against a God she _hated_--only to return to God much later, with a far deeper faith. She's now a music minister at a different church (and a much better Christian than I am because I'm too chickenshit to even go to church anymore). 

I'm writing_ Pinocchio_; I'll probably combust if I walk in the doors. Conviction's an awful thing to wrestle with.


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## TL Murphy (Sep 10, 2019)

I do not subscribe to any religion or spiritual disciple, nor for I call myself atheist. My take on God is that, by definition, God would be beyond human comprehension.  If God is omniscient then anything we say about God limits God. If we could describe God, it wouldn't be God. So there's really nothing to talk about. Therefore, the only way to write God as a character is satirical. To presume that one could write about the essence of God is arrogant beyond belief, particularly from one who ascribes to any monotheistic religion. Any God character is a charlatan and shear foppery.


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## Rojack79 (Sep 10, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> Out of curiosity, how do you determine what is or isn't evil in the context of this story...and how do you make sure it aligns with your prospective readers'?


Well for the most part I will go with the concept what Jesus laid down while he was alive. Love one another and do no harm.



luckyscars said:


> If you're doing it in a Biblical context...well, the Bible says a lot of stuff. Most Christians don't live their lives according to the entirety of Biblical teaching. Those that do are Fundamentalists and I am assuming you're not one of those.


 Fundamentalist no but i have a very I guess skewed interpretation of the bible. I believe that all of it is real and that it actually happened and thus I'm going to use that as a basis for the story. If it's in the bible then I'll use it in the book.



luckyscars said:


> So are you basing it on a particular reading? C.S Lewis's was straight Anglican, which is incredibly flexible (that's the polite way of putting it) as far as what parts of the Bible it cherry picks, but at least it meant he was consistent with a real-world version of 'Christianity'. Or is it more of an individual philosophy you have created?


Basing it off of my own experiences of christianity which is Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, and several other christian faith's thrown in. Basically I want it to be as close to realistic in terms of biblical accuracy as i can get it.



luckyscars said:


> If the latter, I would come back to the question in the first paragraph: How will you address the more divisive issues that are part of inter-faith debate? For instance, how will you address the issue of relationships? I assume your characters will likely have at least one love interest (?) Will the Christianity play a role in the ensuing romance and, if so, on what basis? I assume your good guys end up killing bad guys. Well that might be fine for a lot of denominations - just war, etc - but it wouldn't sit well with others. Quakers, for instance.


The bible has war and violence in it and i know that god can call on people to fight for him and others so that is what i'm going for. As for romance that will play a part and for those of other faiths I'll be as respectful as I can without trying to discredit or ridicule there religious beliefs.  



luckyscars said:


> Or will you perhaps not touch that stuff at all? You could probably avoid a lot of the contentious stuff, but then I would question whether this book carries much of a Christian message at all. Is it a CHRINO (Christian In Name Only) like, say, Bruce Almighty when the use of religion is more a plot device and superficial scene-set than anything that addresses actual Christian problems...or are you trying to actually enlighten people? I'm not saying either approach is better, only that you should probably decide just how religious this is going to be and make sure you have the appropriate theological knowledge to approach it correctly.


 I'm trying to both enlighten people and tell a good story using christianity as both a driving force and point of contemplation.


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## seigfried007 (Sep 10, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> Oh boy that evil in religion is actually the flipside other side of this book. That is something that I've not really seen touched upon or at the very least no one has called out religion for as far as I know. I mean there may be a book or movie out there but I haven't come across it yet. I honestly think it's something that we need to do from time to time. I'm against all forms of evil even it is done supposedly in "Gods" name.



I know I've seen it in a lot of places, but I can't think of an example off the top of my head. If you look up pretty much anything on the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, a lot of the Crusades-related media... yeah, you'll get a lot of darkside to Christianity. 

Because all faiths and organizations are full of people, and people are nasty creatures to each other. Faiths are no different from big business or governments, when you think about it. The bigger the organization, the greater its potential for goodness--but the greater the likelihood that 
it's going to fall off the ideals wagon to disastrous effect. Big organizations are very likely to be usurped by very nasty people, because very nasty people are most likely to claw their ways up to the top. Nasty people like the grandeur and respect of high ranking positions. They like being viewed as surrogate God. They like the power. 

Now, of course, not all people at the top are nasty people. Power does illuminate who that person was on the inside all along, though. and power is attractive to a certain clade of very nasty people. 

Outside of Christian media, I've seen the faith in generally disrespectful lights. Christians are very easy to dismiss. The religion encourages the "turn the other cheek" "pray for those who persecute you" "love your enemy" approach--and that means that violence is frowned upon (or should be, given Biblical precedent). This doesn't mean there aren't militant people in the church. There's a lot of people in churches... and people can twist shit up. I've seen a lot of real hot-blooded "wrath of God" types.  Bible is a big book, and if properly motivated to excuse something, a person can probably find a way to do it. Warmongers tend to quote the Old Testament, even though the New Testament is vehemently anti-violence. 

You can use a lot of that in the book, I think. Given the breadth of the text and historical differences in denominations, I think your competing Christian churches will likely follow a lot of those same paths (they'll just have the additional complications of non-humans, magic, and "other gods" to deal with, too).

Hoping all this helps you fill out some of your faiths and your hero's spiritual journey though.


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## Trollheart (Sep 10, 2019)

@ Rojack: like I said, check Anne Rice, esp Memnoch. She pulls no punches, and she is a devout Christian.

@ Siegfred: forgive my ignorance, but what is a clade? I've seen you use the term a few times now and I've never heard of it, nor can I find it in my dictionaries. Just curious.


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## BornForBurning (Sep 10, 2019)

> Jesus (whether he existed or not, whether he was/is the son of God or not) was a pretty cool guy, with some universal attitudes and a message that can't be disparaged


Dude I hate this take. If Jesus wasn't the son of God he was the most grotesque liar of all time. He literally told people that _through him their sins would be forgiven. _If he wasn't actually God, that's some Charlie Manson-tier shit. "Nice" is a weird word. Love is better, because sometimes love hurts like hell. Love isn't always pleasant or nice. Sometimes, it can be violent and terrifying. 



> Does that include handling God in a humorous, possibly tongue-in-cheek/slightly disrespectful way?


On a certain level, if it's funny, it's funny. I always thought it was oddly interesting when Jesus showed up in South Park, back when I watched that show. Even the secular Jews seemed nervous to totally lampoon him. What do you mean by "God"? That would be my main question. If you believe he's omnipotent, all-powerful, and omnipresent, then you can't really level any criticism against him because he knows literal infinity; he knows what you know and so, _so _much more, so of course he's going to make decisions that don't make any sense to you. That doesn't make them wrong. If you don't believe he's omnipotent, all-powerful, and omnipresent, then to me, that's not God. Maybe some polytheistic-type demigod or spirit. Certainly, a finite being like that can be mocked. The Greek gods parody themselves. Still seems stupid to mock a creature that can effortlessly fry you if he's in a bad mood though. If you don't believe in God at all...then you aren't really mocking him, you are mocking people's perceptions of him. So why not just mock the people themselves? I think that's what made Monty Python so funny, for example. The scene that I linked is so brilliant, for multiple reasons. It's as much a critique of its _own _ideals as anything else, showing that people really don't have the ability to act as individuals in their own capacity.


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## bdcharles (Sep 10, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> ...



Great writeup. And top marks for referencing the lyrics of Maynard


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## Ralph Rotten (Sep 10, 2019)

Okay, I gotta interject something.

Wasn't this a discussion about using religion in WRITING?
We seem to have devolved into a discussion over the VALIDITY of church & God.

Remember that we are talking about writing here, so just because a character in your story is a bible-thumper does not mean you endorse or deny religion. By the same contrast, if you write a character that is evil or despotic, you are not endorsing their lifestyle either. *They are just characters. *


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## Trollheart (Sep 10, 2019)

@BornForBurning: I'm not at all sure where the line gets drawn between discussion and debate, so to you mods, if I'm tip-toeing over that line, let me know. I honestly don't have a clue. But as to JC, at its very heart his message was simple, and can really be encapsulated in one phrase, leaving out the bit about God, if you prefer: love your neighbour as yourself. How can that be a bad thing? Certainly, he made a lot of claims but those claims are only lies if you don't believe he was God's sprog. Me, I don't care: if he had simply been a prophet or a madman or a wandering carpet seller and espoused that message, I'd dig it. Sure it's simplistic, but aren't all good messages really, when you strip them right down?

As to lampooning God, I guess I tend to look at him in the light of just being another character I can use, and while I wouldn't consciously try to insult or offend anyone by my portrayal of him, I try to make it seem that maybe he's some misunderstood very powerful deity who really just wants to do the things we do; chill at the weekend, read the football results, head down to the pub and ask the barman not to tell the wife he's there if she calls. It's all satire, and to be honest I don't think about God as some all-powerful, omniscient entity: don't we have Trump? :lol:


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## Ralph Rotten (Sep 10, 2019)

I much prefer New Testament Christians over Old Testament Christians.
But in writing I get more conflict using Old Testament Christians.


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## Rojack79 (Sep 10, 2019)

Ok so let me get this back on track sorry for letting it get too out of hand guys. So in summary we can all day that religion has been used a number of ways in writing and other media. So how has religion factored into your own writing?


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## Rojack79 (Sep 10, 2019)

Ralph Rotten said:


> I much prefer New Testament Christians over Old Testament Christians.
> But in writing I get more conflict using Old Testament Christians.



You could even use both. Have one side against the other. At least that's one way I plan on using it. Should be interesting at the vary least.


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## bdcharles (Sep 10, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> Ok so let me get this back on track sorry for letting it get too out of hand guys. So in summary we can all day that religion has been used a number of ways in writing and other media. So how has religion factored into your own writing?



In so far as it does, it's a distant unknowable force. Whether it's real or not is barely the point; the point is it has impacts. I love it for that. I like me a faraway and shadowy 'Other' subtly machinating humanity hither and yon.


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## seigfried007 (Sep 10, 2019)

BornForBurning said:


> Dude I hate this take. If Jesus wasn't the son of God he was the most grotesque liar of all time. He literally told people that _through him their sins would be forgiven. _If he wasn't actually God, that's some Charlie Manson-tier shit. "Nice" is a weird word. Love is better, because sometimes love hurts like hell. Love isn't always pleasant or nice. Sometimes, it can be violent and terrifying.
> 
> 
> On a certain level, if it's funny, it's funny. I always thought it was oddly interesting when Jesus showed up in South Park, back when I watched that show. Even the secular Jews seemed nervous to totally lampoon him. What do you mean by "God"? That would be my main question. If you believe he's omnipotent, all-powerful, and omnipresent, then you can't really level any criticism against him because he knows literal infinity; he knows what you know and so, _so _much more, so of course he's going to make decisions that don't make any sense to you. That doesn't make them wrong. If you don't believe he's omnipotent, all-powerful, and omnipresent, then to me, that's not God. Maybe some polytheistic-type demigod or spirit. Certainly, a finite being like that can be mocked. The Greek gods parody themselves. Still seems stupid to mock a creature that can effortlessly fry you if he's in a bad mood though. If you don't believe in God at all...then you aren't really mocking him, you are mocking people's perceptions of him. So why not just mock the people themselves? I think that's what made Monty Python so funny, for example. The scene that I linked is so brilliant, for multiple reasons. It's as much a critique of its _own _ideals as anything else, showing that people really don't have the ability to act as individuals in their own capacity.


ERMAGERSH! Life of Brian. 

Thanks for bringing up some of those examples I couldn't quite think up (got a horrendous migraine today, so my thinker isn't what I want it to be and my sense of humor is coming off a lot more pissed off than I want it to). 

Here's kind of a weird aside, but I just wondered if perhaps people make light of God and religions in general as a coping mechanism against the nihilism that comes with an understanding of what an absence of God would be like (deep atheism mindscrewery, existentialist stuff) or versus the awe and terror God as He's described should inspire. 

Both extremes are terrifying. 

You either have to accept that there is no God and mankind and all our personal struggles are meaningless. There is no judgment, no reward for goodness and selflessness, no punishment for horrors inflicted on others--so all concepts of karma and eternal justice/reward are totally chucked out the window. Death is eternal and cold--at best a reprieve from the misery of our existences. 

Or you have to figure that some supreme being embodying all forms of power on dimensions you can't conceive, something which is everywhere and yet cannot be seen or known or interacted with as a physical entity, something which knows your soul and body better than you do and will judge you for every selfish thought you've ever had (not even shit you did--stuff you _thought about doing!). _Something older than the universe--the sort of entity that sneezed existence into existence. It's every_where_, every_when_, and knows every_thing_. 
Something capable and _willing_ to inflict eternal torment on your soul (which is something no other creature can do because your body can only handle so much before it gives out and you die). Forget that body thing--your soul is eternal and can be tortured indefinitely. Bible actually talks a lot more about Hell than Heaven (probably because people take pain more seriously and will try to avoid that level of anguish at pretty much any cost, so long as they take the threat seriously). 

This is an entity which ordered His people to go into another tribe's turf and dash their pregnant women on rocks. He's ordered a lot of genocides. There is a lot of really sick stuff in the Old Testament, and I've had to wrestle with the things God ordered His people to do. For instance, the treatment of rape victims (like forcing them to marry their rapists or stoning them for not screaming loudly enough, I guess). 

Now that I'm older and have taken some fancy public health courses, it all makes sense from a macrocosmic perspective. The Law is basically just a big code of public health, designed to keep order; and the really despicable thing He ordered would've been breaking eggs to make omelets in the long run and probably made the world a better place on a very long-term scale (but we'll never know because people rarely followed His decrees to the letter, and we can't see/experience time the same way God does). the laws have nothing to do with alleviating individual suffering and everything to do with ultra-long-term suffering in the collective.   

God's terrifying. He fits pretty darn easily into cosmic horror, so I don't understand when people make Him out to be this magical engine of wish fulfillment. He's not some wishing well in the sky (not as He's written Biblically, at least--he can be anything you want in fiction, and you're more than welcome to write him however you feel). 

The terror angle is one I haven't seen applied to God, so that could be really cool to mess with. 

Star Trek 5 kinda did it, but that movie sucked, and it wound up not being God. 

Pullman kinda-ish did it, but again, God wasn't really God. There was no real God in the work--so "God" was just the first awareness to spring up in the universe, as opposed to some omnipotent creator being. 

Another neat angle I haven't seen done is the concept that God is awareness itself--the sum total of all "souls" and being, and we're just little motes in the vast greatness, pieces of awareness that have come, perhaps, temporarily unglued from the whole only to die and returned to it. Christian Nirvana, the glorious oneness of being.


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## seigfried007 (Sep 10, 2019)

Trollheart said:


> @ Rojack: like I said, check Anne Rice, esp Memnoch. She pulls no punches, and she is a devout Christian.
> 
> @ Siegfred: forgive my ignorance, but what is a clade? I've seen you use the term a few times now and I've never heard of it, nor can I find it in my dictionaries. Just curious.



Sorry, it's a bio term. If you're familiar with taxonomy (scientific names), the old ways of classifying things are kinda falling out of favor and being replaced with "clades" and their fancy cladograms. They're basically family trees, near as we can determine them. The old way didn't really allow for how the taxa split off--they just named them and stuck them into groups. Clades are more about evolutionary relationships, and they're still controversial in some circles (pretty new still). 

So when I say a "clade" of people, I'm really just meaning "a subset of humanity which has split off from the rest of us." I'll try to use something else because I'm really not trying to throw anyone for a loop.


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## velo (Sep 10, 2019)

*SECOND AND FINAL SUPERVISOR NOTE

This is going off the rails into religious discussion and not about writing even after both Phil and I put warnings in just a couple hours ago.  

This is the final warning.  Steer the conversation back to some aspect of writing about religion or I'll lock the thread.  *


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## seigfried007 (Sep 10, 2019)

Just wanted to state for the record that I'm really not trying to argue for the validity of Christianity so much as elucidate it from an insider's perspective and hopefully spark some ideas for the OP. I'm actually not trying to argue at all, for that matter (my sense of humor is just coming off sharper than I want it to). 



Rojack79 said:


> Ok so let me get this back on track sorry for letting it get too out of hand guys. So in summary we can all day that religion has been used a number of ways in writing and other media. So how has religion factored into your own writing?



Religion generally or Christianity specifically? Those are totally different things--especially for us speculative fiction writers! 

Regarding Christianity specifically, I usually stick more to themes as opposed to blaring it out there. There's a lot of room for conflict between Christian ideals and "the world." Having characters battling their drive for "the world" vs their desire to be better people can be challenging but worthwhile. But this sort of conflict is also secular in nature, and it applies to everyone out there, really. For instance, a single mom is torn between pursuing his career and spending time with her kids; pursuit of material wealth/accolades/respect vs "what really matters in the long run." 

Holy crap... I think Pinocchio's the only work I've ever quoted the Bible in... I'm gonna burn in Hell.


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## Rojack79 (Sep 10, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> Just wanted to state for the record that I'm really not trying to argue for the validity of Christianity so much as elucidate it from an insider's perspective and hopefully spark some ideas for the OP. I'm actually not trying to argue at all, for that matter (my sense of humor is just coming off sharper than I want it to).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I should have clarified and made the name of my thread more clear. I'm mostly focusing on Christianity in general because I've rarely seen it uses in various forms of fiction. I've seen lot's of stuff written about say the Greek, Roman, and Norse pantheons but very little if any on Christianity. And the several things I have seen haven't really portrayed Christianity in a positive light, so I was wandering about positive portrayals as well.


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## seigfried007 (Sep 10, 2019)

Ermagersh--I just realized that Stephen King takes on religion quite a lot. 

I'm not sure if he's portrayed a "good Christian" yet, but I know he loves to play with bastardizations of the faith, if you're looking for ideas, @Rojack. Likes weird cults that are somewhat based on Christianity, so they're like dark mirrors into something really, really bad (made worse/more icky by the familiar iconography).

I know he's used it more than once, but the only time I can remember is from Carrie. 


There's also a ton of specifically Christian literature out there--especially if you're looking for "inspirational romances." Those might help you tie some knots between your love interests in the novel though, come to think of it. If you go to church, said church might even have some of these in its library. Not all churches have libraries or keep inspirational romances though. I can't really forward you to any particularly good ones, but if you ask the ladies who check said books out (or check Goodreads), you can probably get some good recommendations. 

If you don't tie in the faith, you may have stress on the relationship via the "unevenly yoked" issue (prohibition on marrying outside the faith). Could make things interesting. I'm not sure why Fenrir would convert--she's a god, kinda. The idea of one god converting to worship a god from a totally different religion... I'll not lie, I've never seen that done. Would be interesting to watch her struggle with _that_.


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## bdcharles (Sep 10, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> Here's kind of a weird aside, but I just wondered if perhaps people make light of God and religions in general as a coping mechanism against the nihilism that comes with an understanding of what an absence of God would be like (deep atheism mindscrewery, existentialist stuff) or versus the awe and terror God as He's described should inspire.
> 
> Both extremes are terrifying.
> 
> ...



In my writing I explore these themes. For one character, the notion of meaning is absurd. What meaning, he asserts, can there be in a person being alive? It's just a thing. It happens. He makes this speech somewhere about what meaning means. Meaning, he says, is some intent put behind a thing by some intelligence. Like a sign. Taken at face value (if I recall he has this realisation while stood outside a fantasy village and there's a sign there) it's just a block of wood with some familiar scratches on it. But run it past human hands and it means something. It means the village is over there (he points through some fantasy tangled undergrowth). But what meaning is there in those twists of vines? They're just vines. Like the rest of life, they have no meaning other than at a very local level. Their shoots being pale green means it is spring - but anyone could determine that. How could they possibly mean more? He isn't particularly terrified of all this but it's sad that he will have to die. He doesn't look forward to it. But it is what it is. It's a sad business and if you're not engaged with sadness every now and again, he maintains, are you really living? You wouldn't think it but he is an optimist. He owns this totally and is happy enough in the day-to-day. His argument against the pessimists who claim they are never disappointed is that to be disappointed on occasion is to be alive. As with sadness, you must engage likewise with disappointment and weather it. Otherwise you're just hiding. And the saddest thing is that the disappointment might one day be the very thing that does you in.

Then my main pipes up. She is ... not explicitly religious but I want her (this is still sort of ongoing. It's a long arc) to rather lovably and whimsically ascribe meaning to any old thing. Clouds streaky and oriented west? That means we must buy corn in the morning rather than turnips, or whatever. And the more daft her proclamations seem, the bigger the payout when lo and behold they invariably come to pass. Because hey, maybe there is some big thing behind all this, pulling levers and spinning gearwheels. She finds herself on a quest towards what that thing is. And the closer she gets the more fucked and scared and broken she becomes. Because she's only one tiny human. She can't handle all this heavy pressure, yet it shunts her onward nonetheless, looming forever bigger than she ever dreaded. That's her battle - that overpowering intelligence is the kind of neuron-stripping shit she must make peace with. And her friend is terrified on her behalf, going up against such heavyweight things - and that's just the stuff she's aware of. When he thinks of what awaits her that she can't yet imagine he almost keels over. But for her it's better than the alternative of a meaningless world. She feels she will have done something worthwile.

The other guy doesn't make light of this though. He says the world as he understands it, and that those differing beliefs are a perfectly sensible mechanism for coping, for organising, for making sense, for being and living. He wishes he could see meaning in trees and whatnot, goes his angle. He wishes it was there. It just happens not to be. And the actual truth of all this is never revealed anyway. The answer is very definitely 'none of the above or possibly both and yet here we are'.


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## Trollheart (Sep 10, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> Ok so let me get this back on track sorry for letting it get too out of hand guys. So in summary we can all day that religion has been used a number of ways in writing and other media. So how has religion factored into your own writing?


Kind of doesn't. I mean, it gets referenced - Major Blackwood in "Get Your Filthy -" you know what? I've talked about this long enough so I'm going to acronymise it: GYFHOMP! (hah!) is a religious bible-thumper, and hates that the aliens have become worshipped by some as gods themselves, but it doesn't really impact on the storyline, other than maybe to emphasise his hypocrisy: you can worship God, MY God, but not aliens, who I know absolutely are not God, my God. In my novel where I spoke about The One True Church I go deep into the workings of the Vatican, where the cardinals all struggle for power a la 13- 15th century Italy etc, Borgias and all that. And as I said I lampoon both God and the Devil a lot, for fun and because there's so much to work with there. But as a serious issue? Not really in my writing. I'd say it only becomes so if you have a conflict between, say, a Baptist Republican and an advocate of abortion maybe? Then you might discuss and explore it. But otherwise I'd say, in my writing anyway, it tends to be out there on the fringes, if at all.

In my story "A Harmless Old Man", God goes into a church and laments, because he knows that the pews were only half full for the mass, and even then he know most of those people were only there out of a sense of duty or routine. Like I say, lots to work with. It's up to you how you portray it, but my only note of caution, if you intend or hope to get published, is don't piss off the religious factor who might be interested in buying, or indeed publishing, your book.


seigfried007 said:


> Here's kind of a weird aside, but I just *wondered if perhaps people make light of God and religions in general as a coping mechanism against the nihilism *that comes with an understanding of what an absence of God would be like (deep atheism mindscrewery, existentialist stuff) or versus the awe and terror God as He's described should inspire.


Nah, I just do it for the fun. I don't think that deeply.



> You either have to accept that there is no God and mankind and all our personal struggles are meaningless. There is no judgment, no reward for goodness and selflessness, no punishment for horrors inflicted on others--so all concepts of karma and eternal justice/reward are totally chucked out the window. Death is eternal and cold--at best a reprieve from the misery of our existences.
> 
> Or you have to figure that some supreme being embodying all forms of power on dimensions you can't conceive, something which is everywhere and yet cannot be seen or known or interacted with as a physical entity, something which knows your soul and body better than you do and will judge you for every selfish thought you've ever had (not even shit you did--stuff you _thought about doing!). _Something older than the universe--the sort of entity that sneezed existence into existence. It's every_where_, every_when_, and knows every_thing_.
> Something capable and _willing_ to inflict eternal torment on your soul (which is something no other creature can do because your body can only handle so much before it gives out and you die). Forget that body thing--your soul is eternal and can be tortured indefinitely. Bible actually talks a lot more about Hell than Heaven (probably because people take pain more seriously and will try to avoid that level of anguish at pretty much any cost, so long as they take the threat seriously).
> ...


Yeah, again I don't really think about it. If I'm honest, I guess I HOPE there's a God, Heaven and all that, reunited with my loved ones. But I don't actually believe it. That doesn't mean I wouldn't write that belief (or lack of) into a character of course.


> The terror angle is one I haven't seen applied to God, so that could be really cool to mess with.
> 
> Star Trek 5 kinda did it, but that movie sucked, and it wound up not being God.


"Jim! You don't ask The Almighty for his I.D!" :lol:



seigfried007 said:


> Sorry, it's a bio term. If you're familiar with taxonomy (scientific names), the old ways of classifying things are kinda falling out of favor and being replaced with "clades" and their fancy cladograms. They're basically family trees, near as we can determine them. The old way didn't really allow for how the taxa split off--they just named them and stuck them into groups. Clades are more about evolutionary relationships, and they're still controversial in some circles (pretty new still).
> 
> So when I say a "clade" of people, I'm really just meaning "a subset of humanity which has split off from the rest of us." I'll try to use something else because I'm really not trying to throw anyone for a loop.


No problem. Keep using it. I just didn't know what it was. Thanks for the explanation.


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## Amnesiac (Sep 10, 2019)

I just finished, (rough draft), a book on spirituality, meditation, and contemplation. It's called, "Inhale Peace; Exhale Bullshit." It's slightly irreverent, maybe even slightly sacrilegious, but the info is solid and very real. I poke fun mostly at the New Age, but it is, in fact, a New Age book, so it's all kind of tongue-in-cheek.


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## Trollheart (Sep 10, 2019)

There's a book I read about, sounds amazing and I'm sorry I never read it. Can't even recall the author. It was, if I remember, in one of those small review columns you get in I think it was a sci-fi magazine, though it could have been a music one, as I used to buy both. Anyway, it depicts a dystopian world where Islam is the world religion, where the objective of a worldwide caliphate has been achieved. In this alternate universe, 9/11 happened but instead of being a day of mourning, it's celebrated as a national holiday.

Now, I don't think for a moment the writer believes that 9/11 should be praised, but damn if that isn't courageous and innovative writing! I bet he got a ton of crap from both western and eastern quarters, and yet the book got published and reviewed. Wish I could remember the title or even the author. Imagine being brave enough to write something like that.


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## bdcharles (Sep 10, 2019)

Trollheart said:


> Imagine being brave enough to write something like that.



I get that. I think to pull that off the writer must handle it sensitively. It's not just a case of plowing ahead and damn the naysayers; we have to demonstrate that we give a shit.


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## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord (Sep 10, 2019)

TL Murphy said:


> If we could describe God, it wouldn't be God. So there's really nothing to talk about. Therefore, the only way to write God as a character is satirical. To presume that one could write about the essence of God is arrogant beyond belief, particularly from one who ascribes to any monotheistic religion.



I... almost agree. No one can describe God. Any attempt to is essentially limiting. But that doesn't mean we should try to imagine it. Of course I can't know the essence of God, but I can wonder, I can stand in awe. And that can be incorporated into writing. I'd never include him as a character, though.



seigfried007 said:


> Or you have to figure that some supreme being embodying all forms of power on dimensions you can't conceive, something which is everywhere and yet cannot be seen or known or interacted with as a physical entity, something which knows your soul and body better than you do and will judge you for every selfish thought you've ever had (not even shit you did--stuff you _thought about doing!). _Something older than the universe--the sort of entity that sneezed existence into existence. It's every_where_, every_when_, and knows every_thing_.
> ....
> God's terrifying. He fits pretty darn easily into cosmic horror, so I don't understand when people make Him out to be this magical engine of wish fulfillment. He's not some wishing well in the sky (not as He's written Biblically, at least--he can be anything you want in fiction, and you're more than welcome to write him however you feel).
> 
> The terror angle is one I haven't seen applied to God, so that could be really cool to mess with.



This is something I've been trying to explore. Metal music uses the terror angle aaalll the time (Frost Like Ashes' album Tophet is a prime example), but I don't see it in fiction a lot. Horror often focuses on supernatural evil, but I think supernatural good could be whole lot scarier...!!

In general I think it's fun/useful to find different angles. You see a lot of approaches to God in media which are completely meaningless to those outside of Christianity, and provide little depth to those within. Like those songs that merely run through a cycle of church-y words--"praise," "grace," etc.--I admit they elicit a positive emotional reaction in me, but it's the spiritual equivalent of box mac'n'cheese. And to non-Christians such art is basically incomprehensible. 

Compare that to the art which may never mention the name of Jesus (although is not shy about it if the work requires), but uses unexpected experiences/characters/images/plots to ignite "great thoughts of God." Bride describe Jesus as a scarecrow, Barry McGuire describes him as a cowboy. To Crimson Moonlight the presence of God is Divine Darkness; to Messiah Prophet it's Heavy Metal Thunder. Because God is infinite, there are an infinite number of ways to describe him. I don't want to limit myself to what first comes to mind.


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## luckyscars (Sep 11, 2019)

bdcharles said:


> In my writing I explore these themes. For one character, the notion of meaning is absurd. What meaning, he asserts, can there be in a person being alive? It's just a thing. It happens.



I admit I have a little bit of a peeve when it comes to speculation over certain people's lives 'lacking meaning' in the context of religiousity. 

Even if God exists (and I neither make nor invite any speculation on _that_) then it seems His existence would do nothing for 'meaning' other than kick the can further down the road, complicating the question with an extra layer rather than answering it. 

With that in mind, in a Christian book, I would reeeeeeeeally hate to be told that belief in God is what makes [sad character] find meaning in their life. I find that particular Hot Take to be incredibly asinine and rather patronizing...but, more importantly, it isn't even necessary to explore the supposed benefits of religion. C.S Lewis managed to write very powerfully about Christianity without once mentioning life's meaning - or lack thereof. It's probably not an accident that its part of the canon and beloved by millions of Christians and Atheists alike, while most other Christian fiction gets ignored.

I think the difference is simplicity. Subtlety. Not bashing people over the head nor engaging in pseudo-intellectual masturbation through use of terms like 'meaning'. A little philosophy here and there is fine, but this is first and foremost about telling a _story. _And, let's face it, most philosophical novels are grotesquely crap aren't they? They just are. Grotesquely crap novels are particularly rife with those authors who set out to focus on message rather than letting one develop organically, or not, through the story. 

I'm not sure why this subject is even being discussed when the OP hasn't even started to write his book yet. I'm not really sure why the OP is concerned about it. I don't think (s)he should be worrying about how to push the religious component of their story at this juncture.


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## Art Man (Sep 11, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> Other than a few movies over the years has anyone here or otherwise tried to portray God in there works of fiction and if so then how did you or thay go about portraying him?



I don't get what you mean with the "other than a few movies" comment but yes I have used religious Christian imagery in a few stories to give context to the story and for entertainment value. I haven't written a purely religious story like that a hardcore churchgoer would expect from his supplementary literature. If I find it fun to use and if it adds depth then really, I don't mind.

I'm sure most people would shy away from talking religiously in an entertainment context. There's quite a few famous actors who are Christian but they never talk about it and you might be inclined to believe they were atheist because of that omission.

But as far as describing God himself I have never done that.


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## Trollheart (Sep 11, 2019)

With respect to the God as terror angle, sure it was a comedy film but Gilliam's "Time Bandits" represented God (the Supreme Being, as he was called) as a pretty vengeful, frightening figure who was after the dwarves for having stolen his map. I'm sure there are other examples, though often it's his opposite number who gets the terror aspect. Sorry to harp on Rice, but look at how she describes The Ordinary Man in "Memnoch". He turns out to the the Devil, of course, but the way she writes him, both as a raging demon and a man in a nondescript suit, somehow both manage to be disturbing.

Of course, if you want God as terror, well, maybe you only have to look as far as the Old Testament...


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## seigfried007 (Sep 11, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> I admit I have a little bit of a peeve when it comes to speculation over certain people's lives 'lacking meaning' in the context of religiousity.
> 
> Even if God exists (and I neither make nor invite any speculation on _that_) then it seems His existence would do nothing for 'meaning' other than kick the can further down the road, complicating the question with an extra layer rather than answering it.
> 
> ...



I figured the OP wanted to discuss it because it's a huge part of the novel. If a central theme is supposed to be a character's spiritual journey (and hopefully hella huge trials and temptations away from his faith) then I think it's wise to consider the issue when plotting the story. You wouldn't want to start writing a redemption quest without plotting out events in it either (or at least putting some thought into it). 

Generally, the more complicated the character arc and prominent the theme, the more effort it takes to plot out and write--to get the character where it needs to go for the story and to avoid preachiness. Totally agree about avoiding preachiness. If one starts with a big theme, it's easy to make it preachy, so care has to be taken to avoid being so overt. Last thing anyone wants is to be thunked with a Bible over the noggin while they're trying to pleasure read. Subtlety's a difficult thing to manage. 

Regarding your dislike of turning sad characters happy with spiritual meaning, I was reminded of all the love stories where a person has to lose weight and put on makeup to get the attention of their love interest. Comes off as... pretty bad... but it seems like the norm. Fat people don't get no love till they lose weight. Frumpy ladies get no love till they make their appearance change. This seems especially true for female characters, but maybe I just notice it more. Dunno. It's still another head-thunker character arc/theme to mess with.


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## Amnesiac (Sep 11, 2019)

Personally, I like panentheism, which is the idea that God is present throughout every aspect of Its creation. It isn't pantheism. (i.e. the grass doesn't cry when I mow it. At least, not to my knowledge...) LOL

It's basically the idea that God is not this remote Moses-like figure who lives somewhere beyond the stars on a bunch of clouds, but that God is omnipresent and breathes life  through every living thing.


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## Trollheart (Sep 11, 2019)

Amnesiac said:


> Personally, I like panentheism, which is the idea that God is present throughout every aspect of Its creation. It isn't pantheism. (i.e. the grass doesn't cry when I mow it. At least, not to my knowledge...) LOL
> 
> It's basically the idea that God is not this remote Moses-like figure who lives somewhere beyond the stars on a bunch of clouds, but that God is omnipresent and breathes life  through every living thing.


I think you're confusing that with The Force... :lol:


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## Amnesiac (Sep 11, 2019)

Trollheart said:


> I think you're confusing that with The Force... :lol:



LOL! Where do you think George Lucas borrowed the idea from?


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## epimetheus (Sep 11, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> I figured the OP wanted to discuss it because it's a huge part of the novel. If a central theme is supposed to be a character's spiritual journey (and hopefully hella huge trials and temptations away from his faith) then I think it's wise to consider the issue when plotting the story. You wouldn't want to start writing a redemption quest without plotting out events in it either (or at least putting some thought into it)...



That's all fine, but what i think riles Lucky a little (at least it does me), is the idea that there are only two outcomes to such a spiritual journey: either find God or drown in meaninglessness. Not only are secular alternatives available, decrying the Myth of Sisyphus, but other world religions came up with different takes on this well before Christianity, or even Judaism, was created.

That's not to say a typical 'finding God' story in the Christian sense isn't any good, just that there are many other paths a spiritual journey character arch might take.


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## Rojack79 (Sep 11, 2019)

epimetheus said:


> That's all fine, but what i think riles Lucky a little (at least it does me), is the idea that there are only two outcomes to such a spiritual journey: either find God or drown in meaninglessness. Not only are secular alternatives available, decrying the Myth of Sisyphus, but other world religions came up with different takes on this well before Christianity, or even Judaism, was created.
> 
> That's not to say a typical 'finding God' story in the Christian sense isn't any good, just that there are many other paths a spiritual journey character arch might take.



This is true but in my own personal exsperance I've rarely seen a good Christian take on a spiritual journey done right. I've seen all kinds of media about the Christian nutcase that thinks God is telling him to kill people. I've read stories about the zealous crusader out to cleanse the world of evil while they themselves are committing the very evil they hope to destroy. And I've read about the people who fight evil and God's power over evil does absolutely nothing to said evil force. It's just annoying as a Christian to see all of this slandering material being circulated without any positive being portrayed. The one good example I have is the castlevainia Netflix series. And that buck's a lot of trends of the genre.


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## Ralph Rotten (Sep 11, 2019)

Heinlein portrayed God as a lower ranking deity in the big scheme of things. I think it was Job...God get in trouble with his boss for abusing Job.


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## Trollheart (Sep 11, 2019)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Heinlein portrayed God as a lower ranking deity in the big scheme of things. I think it was Job...God get in trouble with his boss for abusing Job.


That sounds interesting. What's the title?


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## luckyscars (Sep 11, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> This is true but in my own personal exsperance I've rarely seen a good Christian take on a spiritual journey done right. I've seen all kinds of media about the Christian nutcase that thinks God is telling him to kill people. I've read stories about the zealous crusader out to cleanse the world of evil while they themselves are committing the very evil they hope to destroy. And I've read about the people who fight evil and God's power over evil does absolutely nothing to said evil force. It's just annoying as a Christian to see all of this slandering material being circulated without any positive being portrayed. The one good example I have is the castlevainia Netflix series. And that buck's a lot of trends of the genre.



I think the idea of writing 'a Christian spiritual journey done right' is acceptable. 

I say 'acceptable' only because I can't get enthusiastic about it yet, because it doesn't sound as though there's a whole lot of conflict there- sounds like its mostly some Goody Two Shoes 'doing it right'. But I would need to give it a chance. There's definitely _room _for a positive story about Christianity that isn't either Happy Chappy drivel or some horrendous remake of 'Gods Not Dead'. 

The problem is when you get this stuff being said. Quoted from an earlier 'contribution' to this thread:



> *You either have to accept that there is no God and mankind and all our personal struggles are meaningless. There is no judgment, no reward for goodness and selflessness, no punishment for horrors inflicted on others--so all concepts of karma and eternal justice/reward are totally chucked out the window. Death is eternal and cold--at best a reprieve from the misery of our existences.*




That ^ is the ugliest way to approach Christianity in fiction...or in any format really. 

It doesn't even matter if it's true or not. What matters is it positively smacks of a superiority complex. It is just another more self-important repetition of an argument everybody has heard a thousand times (and is terribly flawed anyway) - essentially that 'atheism is about accepting life is meaningless'. 

Which...no, sorry. I already explained that deciphering 'meaning' is absurd in the context of human life and that's an argument for another place. The salient point is that _nobody wants to be told that shit in a story book. 

_You can believe it, and most Christians presumably do believe it - and that's fine. Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. If you're only interest is to write a book for other Christians, none of this matters. 

But for those of us who don't believe in God, to be told by some jumped up pipsqueak that our lives are bound to misery or that we suffer from lack of reward for our goodness/punishment for our badness all because we _just. won't. listen! _makes me (a genuine agnostic who attends church on a semi-frequent basis and frankly could be talked into a bit of Jesus-ing) lose my shit. 

_We_ don't need lessons in how to make our lives better. _We_ don't need preached to. _We _don't want, or need, '_saved'. 

_The reason I don't read Christian books or watch Christian movies has got nothing to do with belief in God or disinterest in theology or lack of appreciation for the talent and everything to do with the fact that a large number of Christians feel the need to opine on other people's lives constantly and that need usually infests the story. A lot of Christians feel almost duty bound to evaluate other people's concept of 'meaning', considering themselves somewhat spiritually awakened - usually either without any self-awareness whatsoever or a facade of it that's as transparent as a wet t-shirt. Good golly, that stuff drives me mental. 

So, um, don't approach it like that and I'm sure you'll be fine!


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## Aquilo (Sep 12, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> That ^ is the ugliest way to approach Christianity in fiction...or in any format really.



Hm, and it's why I don't read Christian fiction too. But then religion and the LGBTQ+ community isn't a good mix at the best of the times. So, no. I don't write about religion, or more the extremist side. There are good people in Christianity, but bad ones too, where gay conversion therapy is a reality. And for as much as I'm a dark romance author, there are some topics that are just too cruel to cover for even my liking. A few authors in my genre do cover religion, the positive side and the bad, but it's not for me, even though my kids go to a Church of England school. It's their choice what they believe, but I do make sure they know it's a choice, not law, and to make a decision you have to know both sides. That would be my approach in fiction if ever I did write about it. But it's a big if.


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## luckyscars (Sep 12, 2019)

Aquilo said:


> Hm, and it's why I don't read Christian fiction too. But then religion and the LGBTQ+ community isn't a good mix at the best of the times. So, no. I don't write about religion, or more the extremist side. There are good people in Christianity, but bad ones too, where gay conversion therapy is a reality. And for as much as I'm a dark romance author, there are some topics that are just too cruel to cover for even my liking. A few authors in my genre do cover religion, the positive side and the bad, but it's not for me, even though my kids go to a Church of England school. It's their choice what they believe, but I do make sure they know it's a choice, not law, and to make a decision you have to know both sides. That would be my approach in fiction if ever I did write about it. But it's a big if.



I do write about religion some and I pretty well always focus on the negatives. Not because I am anti-religious, but simply because (1) Religion often lends itself to vibrant shades of hypocrisy and I like using that as a character point and (2) I actually think it's incumbent on rationally-inclined writers to focus on the negatives where they undoubtedly exist. 

I think it's a checks-and-balances type issue. Religion may do a lot of good for a lot of people, but it still plays a hugely active role in a lot of really horrendous problems, and as long as those problems continue to go unaddressed or excused (there was a lot of that earlier in this thread, too) then I am going to do my small part in screaming. 

I don't agree at all that religion itself deserves any kind of special respect. Major religions are all political organizations as much as they are spiritual ones. So, like any political organization, they need scrutinized, lampooned, and occasionally farted on. If I can't write a novel espousing the virtues of Communism without every Roger, Drew and Barry feeling they are entitled to criticize what I am saying because Stalin was a nasty piece of work, if Ayn Rand is still open for a shafting by the Liberal Left, then I don't see why a devout Christian or Jew or Muslim ought to be allowed to promote their  doctrine unfettered either. That's balance.

But, as mentioned, I am always open to positive portrayals of Christianity provided they are done well. For them to be done well I would require the story be excellent, the arguments made hold water, that they don't descend into dogmatic baloney the moment logic comes knocking...and that that they fight for their side of the argument, with absolute red-clawed passion and don't plead 'respect me!' when those of us who are discerning start to ask our questions. I don't know how such a novel would work, but I'm here for it.


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## Rojack79 (Sep 12, 2019)

I can say that I truly hope the MC doesn't come off as preachy or like he wants to shove his religion down others throats. I may even make an antagonist or two out of those concepts to serve as a foil for the MC. It'll be nice to see both sides of the argument for and even against organised religion. I personally follow a spiritual path more than a so called religion anyways. Religion is man's interpretation of God's word and thus is prone to sin and corruption. That'll be a fun topic to have the characters talk about. Nihilism is something that I find rather interesting so that might show up. I can't quite grasp it but hey just more research for future projects. Anyway I do hope the final product isn't to bland or preachy. I mostly just want to tell a great story with a solid protagonist that just so happens to be a Christian because I've seen very few of those portrayed in a meaningful way.


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## Ralph Rotten (Sep 12, 2019)

Trollheart said:


> That sounds interesting. What's the title?




I believe it was this book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0345316509/?tag=writingforu06-20


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## Rojack79 (Sep 14, 2019)

Quick question to those who know more about other religions and/or ancient mythologies than I, if I were to go completely original with my portrayal of the various old school gods would that be a bad thing?


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## Amnesiac (Sep 14, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> Quick question to those who know more about other religions and/or ancient mythologies than I, if I were to go completely original with my portrayal of the various old school gods would that be a bad thing?



Well, if you go slandering Jesus, that could be a problem for a lot of people. If you slander Muhammad, it could get you killed.

 Odin, Zeus, Mars, Loki, Thor, Athena... Why not?


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## Rojack79 (Sep 14, 2019)

Amnesiac said:


> Well, if you go slandering Jesus, that could be a problem for a lot of people. If you slander Muhammad, it could get you killed.
> 
> Odin, Zeus, Mars, Loki, Thor, Athena... Why not?



No big bolt of divine retribution for me thank you. I want my portrayals of God and Jesus to fit with what the bible says but I also want to portray the old god's the way they are depicted, you know they were mostly humans but better in every way. Now that I think about it that go's for a surprising amout of pantheons back then. 

For me though I think I'd like to call them immortals instead of god's mostly because I see the term God as an absolute property. It is a term that makes the statement that this being is so far beyond humanity that the term human no longer applies to them. Yet 90% of the old god's are constantly seen both back then and now as human only better.

 So do you see my hesitation. If I go down this road that will be those that might ridicule my choice of marking the god's of old nothing more than better human's with some magic. Am I thinking to much?


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## Sir-KP (Sep 14, 2019)

I've only put religion and God in one story so far. Both the religion and God aren't of the real world ones - and boy, it is hard to pour it down on paper. Harder than what I expected. 

Why so? 

First off, I use this fictional religion as the primary antagonist. I have to make multiple aliases of how the believers address their god. This means I have to keep them generic/neutral and not resembling closely to any of the real ones. This also includes things such as their prayers, for example.

Secondly, the story is set in modern times and grounded. The physical appearance of the believers, their clothing and attributes must not resembling any of the real ones.


It's friggin hard to make sure it doesn't offend the overtly sensitive people.


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## epimetheus (Sep 15, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> Quick question to those who know more about other religions and/or ancient mythologies than I, if I were to go completely original with my portrayal of the various old school gods would that be a bad thing?



Neo-pagan movements are increasing in Europe and if you portray the Abrahamic god as superior to the European gods it might offend some people. It might even offend atheists if it comes across as 'look at all these gods, but my god is better'. Or maybe go for a Semitic pantheon (Hebrew, Akkadian or Babylonian )as they came from more similar cultures from which the Abrahamic god emerged - might help keep things consistent

The Greco-Roman or Norse pantheon would be the easiest to research in terms of the personalities of the gods though. If you go for some Germanic or Celtic pantheon you might have a bit more artistic licence as not as not so many of their stories were written down.


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## Rojack79 (Sep 15, 2019)

epimetheus said:


> Neo-pagan movements are increasing in Europe and if you portray the Abrahamic god as superior to the European gods it might offend some people. It might even offend atheists if it comes across as 'look at all these gods, but my god is better'. Or maybe go for a Semitic pantheon (Hebrew, Akkadian or Babylonian )as they came from more similar cultures from which the Abrahamic god emerged - might help keep things consistent
> 
> The Greco-Roman or Norse pantheon would be the easiest to research in terms of the personalities of the gods though. If you go for some Germanic or Celtic pantheon you might have a bit more artistic licence as not as not so many of their stories were written down.



Aren't the Norse gods considered German or Celtic in origin or an I getting them confused? Sorry brain's not entirely working this early.


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## epimetheus (Sep 15, 2019)

Germanic roots, but Celtic mythology was a separate branch.

This evolution tree does a reasonable job of succinctly showing the major relations between various religions.


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## Rojack79 (Sep 15, 2019)

epimetheus said:


> Germanic roots, but Celtic mythology was a separate branch.
> 
> This evolution tree does a reasonable job of succinctly showing the major relations between various religions.



That has to be the coolest thing I've ever seen! Seriously thanks for that. Wow. Ok so more research to be done. I did plan on adding The Wild Hunt as a villain to my story but I wasn't really sure how I was going to sqeeze in Celtic mythology. Once again correct me if I'm wrong but The Wild Hunt is Celtic right?


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## epimetheus (Sep 15, 2019)

I'm not sure, i've only come across in the Arthurian cycle but that's such a mixed mythology it hard to tell what is from where. I think it was present in Germanic cultures too though. Let me know if you dig up more info on it.


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## Rojack79 (Sep 15, 2019)

epimetheus said:


> I'm not sure, i've only come across in the Arthurian cycle but that's such a mixed mythology it hard to tell what is from where. I think it was present in Germanic cultures too though. Let me know if you dig up more info on it.



I actually know thing or two about  the Arthurian mythology. For example the holy grail isn't a christian relic. It's actually Galic in origin having come from the myth of the magical cauldron of the god's that can grant immortality and wishes. Very interesting.


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## Trollheart (Sep 15, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> I actually know thing or two about  the Arthurian mythology. For example the holy grail isn't a christian relic. It's actually Galic in origin having come from the myth of the magical cauldron of the god's that can grant immortality and wishes. Very interesting.


Isn't there something to do with its being French, the words "sangre real" (holy blood) then being corrupted over time into "grail"? Or did I dream that?


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## Rojack79 (Sep 15, 2019)

Trollheart said:


> Isn't there something to do with its being French, the words "sangre real" (holy blood) then being corrupted over time into "grail"? Or did I dream that?



As far as I know that is something brought up in the Da Vinci code. Don't know how real that statement is or isn't but I don't plan on using anything related to Dan Brown's weird take on Christianity+Cryptography= entertainment?


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## Trollheart (Sep 15, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> As far as I know that is something brought up in the Da Vinci code. Don't know how real that statement is or isn't but I don't plan on using anything related to Dan Brown's weird take on Christianity+Cryptography= entertainment?


Yeah I think (though I'm not certain) that it's in something called "The Gospel of Judas"? Pretty sure Brown didn't make it up. Maybe.


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## seigfried007 (Sep 16, 2019)

Rojack79 said:


> Other than a few movies over the years has anyone here or otherwise tried to portray God in there works of fiction and if so then how did you or thay go about portraying him?



I just wrote a flashback to David's early childhood, and I'm not sure if it's more religious or sacrilegious.


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## SueC (Sep 16, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> I just wrote a flashback to David's early childhood, and I'm not sure if it's more religious or sacrilegious. Thought you might want to see it, since this thread's about religion in writing and specifically mentions the portrayal of God.



Seigfried, I don't believe anything written with such lovely words could ever be called "sacrilegious." I believe all faiths point to ONE, so using terminology that might be foreign or unfamiliar to some - that doesn't matter. It comes from you, so you are the only one to determine its value and its truth.


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## Gentleman Rat (Sep 16, 2019)

In '14 I wrote a novel (unpublished), and in it I portrayed the Devil as a good guy. His philosophy was, "Tell me a time in your life you grew as a person because something good happened to you."

He ropes in my MC, and I acknowledge that God exists, but more as someone who stands by and lets Satan overachieve all the work.


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## seigfried007 (Sep 18, 2019)

My husband voted for sacrilegious, in case anyone wondered.

I don't think I'm going to work much more with this "God the Father" metaphor, but I do like how it's turned out. Wrote two of said flashbacks today. 

In the first case, I have a father bathing a paint-splattered child as a metaphor for the forgiveness of sin. Also, I got to use a bathroom as a metaphor for the fallen nature of the human condition, and an attic studio/kitchenette as surrogate Heaven and place of communion with God. 

In the second case, there was less overt religious imagery, but I used the relationship between the father and his young son to explore how creation and love are interwoven facets of God, how humanity gives God purpose and fulfillment, and how our additions to his creation could, in fact, give God great joy. Our works may be vastly inferior--much like a toddler finger painting over the Creation of Adam--but nevertheless, God might well enjoy our  drawings in crayon and finger paintings on the walls because he did create us to also create of our own accord. As an artist, God made us artists; as an inventor, God made us also inventors, and this was a weird thing to realize as I wrote this.  

The last flashback with this "God the Father" metaphor is going to have a decidedly more tragic Passion of the Christ/"Nietzsche was right" feel, though. "God the Father" committed suicide, but unlike Christ, he didn't rise three days later. Without God, there is no humanity; without humanity, there is no God.


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## Rojack79 (Sep 22, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> My husband voted for sacrilegious, in case anyone wondered.
> 
> I don't think I'm going to work much more with this "God the Father" metaphor, but I do like how it's turned out. Wrote two of said flashbacks today.
> 
> ...



You know this does make me wonder how to make an antagonist that's also a nihilist. That is something I'll have to do more research on. But in response to your post I don't really see it as sacrilegious. I tend to see it as a more dark interpretation of God, religion and belief in general which isn't a bad thing by any means, it's just different. And different can be very exciting.


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## Sir-KP (Oct 6, 2019)

Trollheart said:


> Isn't there something to do with its being French, the words "sangre real" (holy blood) then being corrupted over time into "grail"? Or did I dream that?



Makes sense for me. French's pronunciation of 'Sangre Real' could be misheard, misspelled, and eventually became the word 'grail' by the Anglophones.

My country has a long history with the Hollanders and we have many words originated from the Dutch (and even a few from Portuguese and Mandarin Chinese). 

Some used as is, while some are basically misheard and misspell. 



Sorry for the semi-necro.


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## Rojack79 (Oct 7, 2019)

Sir-KP said:


> Makes sense for me. French's pronunciation of 'Sangre Real' could be misheard, misspelled, and eventually became the word 'grail' by the Anglophones.
> 
> My country has a long history with the Hollanders and we have many words originated from the Dutch (and even a few from Portuguese and Mandarin Chinese).
> 
> ...



Eh I wouldn't call it semi-necro. Your providing valuable information not everyone would have or even know. So thanks for that. I'll have to study up on languages and the drift of certain words now.


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## Ralph Rotten (Oct 7, 2019)

See, now you're all talking about religion, rather than religion in your writing. :drunk:


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## Irwin (Oct 7, 2019)

I'm trying to leave religion and politics out of this novel, although there's an underlying political theme. Politics are a bit more overt in my other WIP, although not to the extreme. They're both more about the characters than society itself.


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## JesterTRT (Oct 10, 2019)

I once wrote a book where I fused all religions together. All of them were right, and all blended together in the after life. I thought it worked pretty well. I could see it offending people, however.


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## luckyscars (Oct 10, 2019)

JesterTRT said:


> I once wrote a book where I fused all religions together. All of them were right, and all blended together in the after life. I thought it worked pretty well. I could see it offending people, however.



Oh I think most of us are past that stuff. 

Sure, there'll always be a subculture of fanatics who think Harry Potter is satanic or what-have-you, but most people (including most religious people) have become rather inoculated to that sort of thing. The average Bob isn't going to so much be offended at having his religion lampooned or attacked by a book as they are likely to be offended (as I am) by the endless plethora of writers playing the same boring old 'religion is' take, an angle that has now been played over and over again in virtually every pseudo-philosophical novel since at least 1960. 

Religion - specifically religious satire or critique - is always open for use in a story, but seems a bit pointless these days. You might as well write about the weather. Unless you can come up with a strikingly insightful/genuinely shocking angle, nobody is likely to give a rat's ass what you think about religion _especially_ if you're essentially retreading some old 'opiate of the people' trope. 

If I can literally go into a bookstore and pick up a bestselling book like 'God Is Not Great' (which I can, by one Christopher Hitchens) it's possibly arrogant and definitely misguided to suppose having some bad (or good) actors who are religious in a book is likely to make a shred of difference to anybody's belief system either way, much less the spiritual zeitgeist. Which begs the question, what's the point of going there?

What's interesting about writers who want to parody/criticize religion in their books is they almost always pick on the safer forms of it. It's easy to write a musical making fun of Catholics, Mormons or evangelist kooks, but if you _really _want to make people take note, try writing some blistering, baiting, bestselling satire of Judaism or Islam. See how well that's received.


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## BornForBurning (Oct 10, 2019)

Basically all writing is religious. I sort of mean that in the same sense that Marxists say all action is ideological. All writing is based on unprovable presuppositions about what has value. The more you can make the reader feel those values, the better. Fiction communicates value through implicit feeling whereas a political manifesto would mix feeling and rationality. To illustrate my point, Night by Elie Wiesel is a soul-crushing story independent of whether the Holocaust actually happened or not. Whereas the Communist Manifesto seems pretty stupid if the working class aren't being systemically disenfranchised. 
btw I am NOT saying the Communist Manifesto isn't also completely based on ideological presupposition. It is. Don't get triggered, Ben Shapiro.


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## Tomkat (Oct 10, 2019)

Kind of a godhead made an appearance, once, in my fiction writings. It was based on the figure of Bon Scott.


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