# Do names matter?



## ktee (Jan 13, 2013)

So my husband (a lawyer) has a habit of starting debates about stupid topics for the enjoyment of debating and arguing (and making my want to right-hook him).

Tonights topic: Names don't matter in movies. If George Clooney is playing Mr Darcey in P&P, the character he plays should be changed to Mr Clooney. Reasons being:

- everyone knows it's George Clooney anyway, so why pretend
- it would encourage actors to be _so good _at their craft that they can take a part beyond a mere name. 
- names don't matter UNLESS they are part of a franchise like Superman or are that of a real person like Michael Jordan. Then you keep the names in the movies. Otherwise names have no effect on a character. 

After a long debate, me saying that:

- actors need to have the names of their characters different to their own to help remove the actor from the role
- names help to shape a character
- names have meaning to fans and readers. I want Mr Darcy to fall in love with Miss Bennet, Not Mr Clooney to fall in love with Miss Portman. 
- he's just being stupid.

No resolution. *sigh*

Anyway, this got me thinking. 

Do names matter to you?
If someone said "I have a friend called Nigil P. Whiskerson" would you have a vision in your mind of that person before you met them based on their name?
How much effort goes into your name choice in your writing?
Do you publish under your own name?
Has your name shaped who you are?
Etc
Etc 


Let me know any/all thoughts about names.


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## Leyline (Jan 13, 2013)

No, names don't matter. Actions and character matter. Names are just labels.


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## Jamie (Jan 13, 2013)

Leyline said:


> No, names don't matter. Actions and character matter. Names are just labels.



Would have to disagree slightly there.

If you have a really terrible, dastardly, evil bad guy in your story, I think the reader might have a problem with him being called Percy Twinkletoes, for example.


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## Leyline (Jan 13, 2013)

Jamie said:


> Would have to disagree slightly there.
> 
> If you have a really terrible, dastardly, evil bad guy in your story, I think the reader might have a problem with him being called Percy Twinkletoes, for example.



You're just saying you wouldn't like that label. But even if he was named Percy Twinkletoes, it wouldn't matter even slightly if his actions and character were properly villainous.


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## Freakconformist (Jan 13, 2013)

Another point in your corner is that Mr. Darcey and Mrs. Bennet are the characters of a book written by Jane Austin more than a hundred years ago. People are familiar with these characters and are likely watching the movie because they're interested in the characters, not Mr. Clooney. That kind of thinking leads to the assumption that the only thing important about the movie is the actor. Forget the story, forget the conflict, forget the characters, just put a picture of George Clooney up on the screen for two hours. That's ridiculous. In my personal opinion, if you're constantly conscious of the fact that the character is a certain actor, there is one of two things wrong, the actor is doing a terrible job, or you're just not interested in the story. If you're not interested in the movie, walk away. 

It's also terribly disrespectful to the writer to rename their character after the actor playing the part. Why not paste a picture of Anne Hathaway over the Mona Lisa, people are more familiar with her, aren't they? Or take a chapter from a Stephen King book and add it to Huckleberry Finn? I've had people take my art and draw over it thinking that they were "helping" or it was a laugh, this is not a topic I find funny.

As for the other questions, I do think that names can be meaningful if the author wants them to be, but I tend to chose names at random. I find that people rarely live up to the meaning of their names, so I don't feel it's necessary to name my characters after their attributes.

I just came up with a female character who can manipulate stone the other night? Did I name her Sapphire? Shard? Shale? Nope, Rhetta. Not even Rhetta Stone. She could use one of those names if she was that kind of person, but her mother named her after her great-aunt Rhetta, and that's what her name will always be. I feel like to do otherwise is contrived and hooky. I don't need their name to remind me of who they are. I like to think I have a better imagination than that.

Edit:



Leyline said:


> You're just saying you wouldn't like that label. But even if he was named Percy Twinkletoes, it wouldn't matter even slightly if his actions and character were properly villainous.



Percy Twinkletoes was tired of people mocking him about his name so he decided to kidnap the mayor's daughter and build a death-ray to shoot at the moon. Names can be part of the plot.


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## ktee (Jan 13, 2013)

To me the dilemma is here:

Names shouldn't matter. Writers shouldn't have to worry about our complex character development being undermined by our choice of names. 

But look at reality: parents spend months, sometimes years, picking the names of their children. This surely must carry over into people's experience of reading. 

So therefor I think we need to put some thought into the names of characters to at least stop major clashes of character with name (unless intentional) such as a Darth Percy Twinkletoes.


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## Jamie (Jan 13, 2013)

Leyline said:


> You're just saying you wouldn't like that label. But even if he was named Percy Twinkletoes, it wouldn't matter even slightly if his actions and character were properly villainous.



I see your point, but I still respectfully disagree.

Imagine if Voldemort was called Mike Jones.

Names can be very important.


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## Leyline (Jan 13, 2013)

Jamie said:


> I see your point, but I still respectfully disagree.
> 
> Imagine if Voldemort was called Mike Jones.
> 
> Names can be very important.



There was a long thread here recently where people claimed exactly the same thing. Not one of them gave any evidence of it other than 'Well, that's what I think.'


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## Kevin (Jan 13, 2013)

Names matter _if_ the writer gives them significance. _Jim Nightshade, Jim Halloway, Mr. Dark...A boy Named Sue._


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## Ariel (Jan 13, 2013)

Talk to any three year old that likes their name.  Say, it's a girl.  Purposely call her Mike.  Do it over and over again.  You'll see how much names matter then.  That three year old girl will throw a fit.  It will be hilarious.

People become attached to their names.  My ex went by his middle name.  Most people he knew didn't realize it was his middle name.  He never answered to his first name.

I go by my first name.  I thought of going by my middle name but when someone would call me by my middle name all they got was a blank look.

It might just be a label but it's a label that many people find important to themselves.  Otherwise we could just go by our social security numbers.


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## Olly Buckle (Jan 13, 2013)

> Do you publish under your own name?


Yes, didn't stop some one sending me a pm saying it was really good and asking how I thought of it 


> If you have a really terrible, dastardly, evil bad guy in your story, I think the reader might have a problem with him being called Percy Twinkletoes


 But only until he had come to appreciate the wonderful irony of it, then it would seem like the only possible.


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## shadowwalker (Jan 13, 2013)

For your husband - how on earth would people know which "George Clooney" was being discussed - the one in Movie A, the one in Movie B, or the 'real' one?

I do think names are important in writing to a degree. As in the Percy example - sure, his actions might be detestable but how could a reader really take him seriously with the name Twinkletoes? They'd be waiting for the 'punchline' all through the story! So at the very least, they need to be appropriate enough to the character so the reader isn't pulled out of the story every time the name comes up. And personally, I'd prefer readers remember my character "Sam Whitman" instead of "that character who...".


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## Deleted member 49710 (Jan 13, 2013)

As Kevin said, some names are significant, others not so much. Names can give a sense of socio-economic class and ethnicity, sometimes generation, an idea of where people come from and sometimes that connects with who they are, though it obviously doesn't tell you everything. And of course, one's expectations can be totally wrong. 

Names can also make reference to other characters or historical figures, which is something I like to do when I name characters. It's one possible way to convey a sense of who they are, I think.

There are neutral names, too, though: common names like Johnson or Smith or whatever. When I got married I went from having a semi-German last name to a very common and neutral English one. Sorta felt like putting on a disguise.


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## dale (Jan 13, 2013)

Jamie said:


> Would have to disagree slightly there.
> 
> If you have a really terrible, dastardly, evil bad guy in your story, I think the reader might have a problem with him being called Percy Twinkletoes, for example.


i don't know. i think percy twinkletoes might make an excellent name for a villain.


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## Jamie (Jan 13, 2013)

I think shadowwalker and lasm summed it up perfectly between them.


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## John_O (Jan 13, 2013)

Everything I read is historical nonfiction, so yeah I guess names matter a lot to me. It's the reason I want to read the book. Wyatt Earp, George McClellan I want to read, Sara Palin, I'll pass!


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## Fats Velvet (Jan 13, 2013)

It depends.  Some authors are identified, or self-identify, with a literary movement associated with ethnicity, race, religion, nationality, etc.  Authors like Philip Roth, Issac Babel, Saul Bellow, and Issac Singer were/are Jewish; Jewish history, culture, and religion figure prominently in their writing.  Their names provide superficial clue as to their background.  In some cases, among especially religious Jews, the names Cohen and Levin/Levine/Levinson/Levi, etc. are associated with the elite priestly castes which were responsible for maintaining the Temple before its destruction.  Some of these Jews can trace their genealogy directly to these ancient ancestors.  Cohen's, the descendents of the Cohenim, in modern practice, enjoy some residual though minor privileges during services.  Their names reflect a genuine history that shapes the identity of those who carry the name.

It is easy to make wrong associations based on persons name.  When a first met a friend of mine, I asked if he was Jewish because his last name ended in "man".  His background was entirely German.  Some people change their names, and some people are named to honor unrelted others (I knew a guy named Socrates who was not Greek, and another named Moshe who was not Jewish).

On a personal level, my name is an indicator of my background and upbringing.  I identify with my name because my name is itself an identifier.  Nothing about me as an individual is _inherent_ in my name, but I chose to see significance in it.  Names matter only if a person feels their own name matters.  The flip side is that a name can matter when others _impose _meaning on it.  The justice in that is not a clear cut case of wrong or right.


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## dale (Jan 13, 2013)

John_O said:


> Everything I read is historical nonfiction, so yeah I guess names matter a lot to me. It's the reason I want to read the book. Wyatt Earp, George McClellan I want to read, Sara Palin, I'll pass!


sarah palin would make a great calamity jane.


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## FleshEater (Jan 13, 2013)

I think names matter, and in most cases they seem to fit the character. 

Just like when you can look at someone and say, "You look like a Goeorge." They're name might be Mike, but something about them brought that idea into your head, the name just completed it. 

Try imagining some of your favorite characters with a different name, it just doesn't work, at least not for me. I couldn't imagine Tyler Durden being called Jack Fleming.


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## Leyline (Jan 13, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> I think names matter, and in most cases they seem to fit the character.
> 
> Just like when you can look at someone and say, "You look like a Goeorge." They're name might be Mike, but something about them brought that idea into your head, the name just completed it.
> 
> Try imagining some of your favorite characters with a different name, it just doesn't work, at least not for me. I couldn't imagine Tyler Durden being called Jack Fleming.



And if he'd been named Jack Fleming from the off, you'd be saying the same thing about Tyler Durden.


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## FleshEater (Jan 13, 2013)

Leyline said:


> And if he'd been named Jack Fleming from the off, you'd be saying the same thing about Tyler Durden.




Prove it. :devilish:


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## Leyline (Jan 13, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> Prove it. :devilish:



Well, I can't of course, since this is all just opinion.  But I would ask: have you ever read a strong, well evoked, fascinating character and thought 'Awesome character, but his name doesn't suit him?' I seriously never have. *shrug*


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## TheWonderingNovice (Jan 13, 2013)

Names may matter if it is tied to the plot, or if the meaning of their name is in correlation to their character type.
If their name has historical significance with a predestined fate then it would either a) make the story predictable, b) forshadow a plot turn, or c) just makes the character who they are.


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## dolphinlee (Jan 13, 2013)

I might be tempted to tell your husband that he is an anachist because what he said is undermining thousands of years of tradition.

Traditionally the 'bad guys' in stories have been given names that identify them as the villain of the piece. This makes children reading childrens' books feel safer. (If only it was that easy in life.) 

 Would Little Red Riding Hood be the same if the villain was the Gentle Wolf?

As children we are guided to identifying villains by name: Cruella Deville, The Grinch, The Wicked Witch of the West, Captain Hook, Rumpelstiltskin, Ebenezer Scrooge, Child Catcher (Chitty Chitty Bang Bang).

Okay, I accept that it is one thing to give villains obviously villainous names for children's literature and quite another for adult literature.  However, I would be reluctant to accept a villain called Percy Twinkletoes.  Unless he had adopted a 'Percy Twinkletoes' personality to cover his true intentions. But then again, probably not.


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## ktee (Jan 13, 2013)

I'm getting lots of material for the debate with my husband... this is fantastic. @ Dolphinlee, saying he's an anarchist gives him too much credit, he's just a smart ass


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## FleshEater (Jan 13, 2013)

Leyline said:


> Well, I can't of course, since this is all just opinion.  But I would ask: have you ever read a strong, well evoked, fascinating character and thought 'Awesome character, but his name doesn't suit him?' I seriously never have. *shrug*



Yes, yes I have, in _No Country for Old Men_. The main character's name was Luellen (spelling?)...it didn't fit, it was weird, and I hated reading it. 

I always spend a great deal of time on my character's names. I can't explain why, I just do.


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## Freakconformist (Jan 13, 2013)

Leyline said:


> Well, I can't of course, since this is all just opinion.  But I would ask: have you ever read a strong, well evoked, fascinating character and thought 'Awesome character, but his name doesn't suit him?' I seriously never have. *shrug*



I read a romance book the other day where the hero's name was Evelyn. It wasn't even ironic, the characters seemed to have no problem with this. He was a masculine lord of the realm who tamed horses for fun. I spent half the book thinking "I guess that could be a guy's name..." every time his name was mentioned.


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## FleshEater (Jan 13, 2013)

Did you find yourself calling him Eve at times? Ha-ha!


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## Kevin (Jan 13, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> Yes, yes I have, in _No Country for Old Men_. The main character's name was Luellen (spelling?)...it didn't fit, it was weird, and I hated reading it.
> 
> I always spend a great deal of time on my character's names. I can't explain why, I just do.


 Llywelyn. There's something about our origins, as Americans, from somewhere else. The name is Welsh and has a partial pronunciation not found in English. Sounds very heroic to me. How about Cormac?


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## Leyline (Jan 13, 2013)

Freakconformist said:


> I read a romance book the other day where the hero's name was Evelyn. It wasn't even ironic, the characters seemed to have no problem with this. He was a masculine lord of the realm who tamed horses for fun. I spent half the book thinking "I guess that could be a guy's name..." every time his name was mentioned.



Serves you right for reading romance novels. 



(I kid. )


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## Ariel (Jan 14, 2013)

A character's name can reveal socio-economic status, ethnicity, parent's education levels, and cultural identity.

For instance: when reading Harry Potter Cho Chang was always of Asian descent and the Patil twins were of Hindi descent.  I didn't need a complex description of these characters' family backgrounds because of their names.
Also, an African-American male is more likely to be named Jamal than a Caucasian American male.  Again, this is an example of cultural and societal differences though both American males nominally live in the same society.  I can tell from the name Jamal that any character named thus is likely of African descent, a citizen of the United States, and that he is male.  In the same vein I can tell that a character named Inigo Montoya is likely male and is of Italian descent.

Context clues, oh yeah.


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## Staff Deployment (Jan 14, 2013)

Sucks coming into this three pages in. Oh well.

Names such as "Gretta" and "Biff" bring to mind one kind of person, while names like "Sarah" and "William" have entirely different connotations. I wouldn't name a _manic pixie dream girl_ archetype "Janet," but "Jane" might be acceptable. Janet evokes a much older and wiser person than Jane.

Of course this is all subjective analysis from a maroon-coloured pincer-monster with internet access. Maroon-coloured pincer-monsters are not the most trustworthy source of name connotations.

Then again, you'd name a maroon-coloured pincer-monster "Clacker" but you wouldn't name it "Thumper," now would you?


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## Jamie (Jan 14, 2013)

amsawtell said:


> In the same vein I can tell that a character named Inigo Montoya is likely male and is of Italian descent.



He was Spanish.


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## FleshEater (Jan 14, 2013)

Kevin said:


> Llywelyn. There's something about our origins, as Americans, from somewhere else. The name is Welsh and has a partial pronunciation not found in English. Sounds very heroic to me. How about Cormac?



Thanks. I was too lazy to go and search the proper spelling.

Strange how a name can create different ideas in each reader...I'd say they matter.

Cormac. The name has grown on me to feel proper. At first it was a very odd name to hear and to say, and didn't really depict much within my mind. When I first saw him I had no idea what he might look like or even write like, and was surprised to find a rather frail looking old man.


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## Ariel (Jan 14, 2013)

Jamie said:


> He was Spanish.



It's been a while since I watched it.  And that is one case where the movie follows the book spectacularly.  I like the movie better.


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## Jamie (Jan 14, 2013)

amsawtell said:


> It's been a while since I watched it.  And that is one case where the movie follows the book spectacularly.  I like the movie better.



I agree, it's brilliant.

And I agree with the rest of your point above also.


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## Freakconformist (Jan 14, 2013)

I just had an epiphany regarding names. I have decided if I ever publish, I will do so under the name of Anne Coleman. That's with an 'e'. (Ann is my middle name, fyi.) It just sounds more like an author's name than Sarah Coleman, doesn't it? It may just be because I have lived with the name Sarah all of my life. 

To me, Sarah is unemployed, living in her parent's basement, and just lacks the discipline it takes to do something with her life. Sarah means Princess in Hebrew, and she wants everything to come to her without any effort on her part.

Anne has a career, lives in her dream home, and she writes and paints on her down time. Anne means God's grace or favor in Hebrew, and she lives a life of modesty and discipline so that she has time and money for the joys in life. Anne lives the life Sarah has been too lazy to claim.

I can't believe I'm seriously thinking about legally inverting my name, lol. Meh, I always felt that I was ill-suited to the name "princess".

Btw, the stuff I said about randomly choosing my character's names, my logic still hold. But just because their name doesn't matter to me doesn't mean their names don't matter to them. It's all a part of their character creation.


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## Ariel (Jan 14, 2013)

Those two names have different power for you.  If going by Anne makes you feel more like you can take charge of your life then that's a good thing.


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## ktee (Jan 14, 2013)

Freakconformist said:


> I just had an epiphany regarding names. I have decided if I ever publish, I will do so under the name of Anne Coleman. That's with an 'e'. (Ann is my middle name, fyi.) It just sounds more like an author's name than Sarah Coleman, doesn't it? It may just be because I have lived with the name Sarah all of my life.
> To me, Sarah is unemployed, living in her parent's basement, and just lacks the discipline it takes to do something with her life. Sarah means Princess in Hebrew, and she wants everything to come to her without any effort on her part.
> 
> Anne has a career, lives in her dream home, and she writes and paints on her down time. Anne means God's grace or favor in Hebrew, and she lives a life of modesty and discipline so that she has time and money for the joys in life. Anne lives the life Sarah has been too lazy to claim.



Changing your name can be powerful and a symbol of change or rebirth. My aunt swapped her middle name with her first for similar reasons. 

If I ever get published I will do so under my maiden name because my married name is long, complicated and really hard to pronounce.

I think Anne Coleman sounds more like an author's name too. But I can't put my finger on why I think that.


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## Capulet (Jan 14, 2013)

Names are important, in that if they're done wrong they can distract and detract. Authors want to pull people into their story, and create as convincing a world as possible for their reader.

A poorly chosen name can hurt a story by pulling a reader's attention away from where you want it to be. Do you want to have your reader puzzling over why your arch villain is named Pinky Twinkletoes, inventing their own story to explain it, or do you want them focused on the plot you are presenting them?

A well chosen name can be the plot device others have suggested. It can provide the clues to ethnic background, socio-economic status, or the disposition of the character when it satisfies tropes common to genres such as fantasy and science fiction.

Names do matter. Heck they even matter in real life.

Go read Freakonomics; there's an entire chapter on picking names, the cycles, and the general outcome of those choices.


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## Staff Deployment (Jan 14, 2013)

In Douglas Adams' _The Long Dark Teatime of the Soul_ he went into detail on the perfect names for bestselling authors: Long multi-syllabic first name, followed by a short monosyllabic last name. That way the surname is big and huge while the first name nicely rounds it out in smaller text above.

Like Howard Price, or Zachariah Smith, or Rooibos Tea.

Or rather...
(look a bit to the right)

Howard
PRICE

Zachariah
SMITH

Rooibos
TEA​


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## ktee (Jan 15, 2013)

sonofa 
BEACH!


My name's out then.


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## Staff Deployment (Jan 15, 2013)

Well, never fear because you can always have a pen name. My normal name kinda looks like this (approximate length):

firssst
lassst​
:upset:

However, with a pen name...

Pseudonym
McGEE​
:topsy_turvy:

Pen names are such fun.


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## Morkonan (Jan 15, 2013)

ktee said:


> So my husband (a lawyer) has a habit of starting debates about stupid topics for the enjoyment of debating and arguing (and making my want to right-hook him).
> 
> Tonights topic: Names don't matter in movies. If George Clooney is playing Mr Darcey in P&P, the character he plays should be changed to Mr Clooney. ...



No, that's not how it works. It may be George Clooney playing the character, but his job as an actor is to get you to believe that he is really someone else. If he can't do that and you continue to think he's George Clooney, then he has failed as an actor in playing his assigned part.

Names matter, but character development can overcome problematic names. "Mr. Smith" isn't very distinctive. But, if he "goes to Washington" his name suddenly becomes very relevant. Why do you think that character was named Mr. Jefferson Smith? To top it all off, the "Everyman" name of "Smith" was magnified by the historic cultural impact of adding "Jefferson" to it. "Jefferson Smith" doesn't sound like a big deal, unless you put him in a corrupt Washington political setting. In this case, the name was extremely important. But, it doesn't always have to be that way. For some names, it's what you do in development that really matters. But, you surely wouldn't want to miss a good opportunity like Jefferson Smith just because you have some sort of name bias. 

Choosing a name can be a mundane act or one that is deliberately thought out in order to take advantage of cultural referents. It's up to the creator. Eventually, if the story is good, the name will matter and become part of a cultural lexicon, no matter how small. Then, future authors have to jump through hoops to come up with original names that haven't been trod upon too heavily already...

"Jim" doesn't matter, unless it's a very well developed character who is a constant companion to a certain plucky adolescent. At some point in that story, the name "Jim" is going to matter. But, since it's a mundane and common name, it can be reused at will by others. Try doing that with Lazarus Long or Darth Vader and see how many infringement lawsuits you get.  Tell THAT to your husband and then ask him to explain to the court why "Names don't matter."


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## dolphinlee (Jan 15, 2013)

Just a thought.

Do names matter?  Have you considered the usernames on WF and what you think when you read them?


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## Nemesis (Jan 15, 2013)

Yes =) I think the handle you go by can say alot about you. How you use it, how often you change it, and where (or for what) you use it can all be indicative of your personality.


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