# Do you like to surprise your reader?



## Taylor (Feb 3, 2021)

This idea for a thread was generated by an interesting post made by *NobodyParticular* in the 'Write What You Know Thread'. 

 It got me thinking about surprising the reader.  It's something that I like as a reader, and something that I strive to do in my writing, both in my plot and in my dialogue.  

This article sets out some dos and don'ts:

_“Readers love to be surprised, but they're not fans of being tricked or manipulated. Author John McNally shares his five tips for surprising your readers without it feeling like a trick.”_

_https://www.writersdigest.com/write...e-your-reader-without-it-feeling-like-a-trick_

Do you like to surprise your reader and if so, how do you do it?


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 3, 2021)

Taylor said:


> This idea for a thread was generated by an interesting post made by *NobodyParticular* in the 'Write What You Know Thread'.
> 
> It got me thinking about surprising the reader.  It's something that I like as a reader, and something that I strive to do in my writing, both in my plot and in my dialogue.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure if it fits your criteria for this thread but I often start with a character if I'm stuck for an idea and immediately add conflict to see how I can extrapolate an idea from that character. I think you'd call this method 'surprise' because it plays off stereotypes. Two that come to mind from a long time ago:

A vicar throwing bricks through the window of is own church.
A skin head on a roundabout crying.

In both cases, a story would evolve naturally because they ask the question 'why'?


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## Tiamat (Feb 3, 2021)

I don't know that "surprise" is quite the word I would use for my goals. I think surprise implies that something came out of nowhere. (Maybe that's just in my head.) I would say, though, I try to subvert expectations. Generally speaking, if you're doing your job as a writer, your story should have a flow, and it should be building towards THE BIG EVENT. Your reader probably has some ideas about what's going to happen in your story's high point and how things will be resolved. That's where I try to "surprise" them. Not "surprise" as in something totally outside the realm of the story (like killer clowns randomly showing up and murdering the bad guy or whatever), but something that fits the tone of the story while simultaneously not being the obvious choice of resolution. Also (again, generally speaking), I think stories that don't do that to some extent tend to fall flat.


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## indianroads (Feb 3, 2021)

When the story provides an opportunity, yes, absolutely I'll add a twist, a surprise, or something unexpected - usually at or near the end. It's fun, but I feel the writer has to subtly drop clues a few times during the story. When it's done right the reader will think: oh, that's what that was about. 

The thing to avoid is the dreaded 'then a miracle happened' ending, like the cavalry coming over the hill at the last minute in the old western movies.


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## Taylor (Feb 3, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> I'm not sure if it fits your criteria for this thread but I often start with a character if I'm stuck for an idea and immediately add conflict to see how I can extrapolate an idea from that character. I think you'd call this method 'surprise' because it plays off stereotypes. Two that come to mind from a long time ago:
> 
> A vicar throwing bricks through the window of is own church.
> A skin head on a roundabout crying.
> ...



Oh absolutely!  A surprise in a character's behaviour makes for a rich read.  I really like your examples, and yeah immediately I want to read on.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 3, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Oh absolutely!  A surprise in a character's behaviour makes for a rich read.  I really like your examples, and yeah immediately I want to read on.



It's a good method to come up with an interesting story. You can take any stereotype and do it. As I always say, a stereotype isn't a person with particular traits, it's a person with ONLY those traits. Hence, a skinhead with heart and a victor with malice.


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## JBF (Feb 3, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Do you like to surprise your reader and if so, how do you do it?



Usually by finishing something.


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## Taylor (Feb 3, 2021)

indianroads said:


> When the story provides an opportunity, yes, absolutely I'll add a twist, a surprise, or something unexpected - usually at or near the end. It's fun, but I feel the writer has to subtly drop clues a few times during the story. When it's done right the reader will think: oh, that's what that was about.
> 
> The thing to avoid is the dreaded 'then a miracle happened' ending, like the cavalry coming over the hill at the last minute in the old western movies.



Yes that is exactly when it works! And there is a skill to introducing the initial bait. You do it very well btw!  How do you, as a writer, when you know what you're hinting at, avoid giving away too much, but just enough to have the reader expect a resolution?   How do you test it?

And the other caveat is that some readers are more astute than others. So you have to write to your audience to a degree. I have already accepted the fact that I will lose some of my readers, because they may not be interested in finding out more about some of the things I hint at, i.e. financial stuff. And it's not important if they fully understand it, if they don't want to, as long as they accept that something wasn't right and that's what caused the crime. For myself, if I read or watch something that is over my head, like IT stuff, I can still enjoy the story if the writing has another underlying plot and the IT world is just to provide a setting.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 3, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Yes that is exactly when it works! And there is a skill to introducing the initial bait. You do it very well btw!  How do you, as a writer, when you know what you're hinting at, avoid giving away too much, but just enough to have the reader expect a resolution?   How do you test it?
> 
> And the other caveat is that some readers are more astute than others. So you have to write to your audience to a degree. I have already accepted the fact that I will lose some of my readers, because they may not be interested in finding out more about some of the things I hint at, i.e. financial stuff. And it's not important if they fully understand it, if they don't want to, as long as they accept that something wasn't good and that's what caused the crime. For myself, if I read or watch something that is over my head, like IT stuff, I can still enjoy the story if the writing has another underlying plot and the IT world is just to provide a setting.



I was astonished when someone already spotted something about my latest story and hit the nail on the head. It was a spotty moment ... Don't ask me who it was or where it was posted!


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## Taylor (Feb 3, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> I was astonished when someone already spotted something about my latest story and hit the nail on the head. It was a spotty moment ... Don't ask me who it was or where it was posted!



Were you pleased that they picked it up so early, or did it give you cause to rethink?  Not that I want you to rethink too much.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 3, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Were you pleased that they picked it up so early, or did it give you cause to rethink?  Not that I want you to rethink too much.



I was stunned to be honest. I'd written that section a particular way so that the reader would perhaps then understand why I'd written it the way I had compared to the body of text surrounding it. I didn't expect that from a snippet though. I expected that from a full read through. Subtext is my thing ... But it's SO specific, it gave me goosebumps. If it was a guess, it was a bloody good one lol.


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## Taylor (Feb 3, 2021)

Tiamat said:


> I don't know that "surprise" is quite the word I would use for my goals. I think surprise implies that something came out of nowhere. (Maybe that's just in my head.) I would say, though, I try to subvert expectations. Generally speaking, if you're doing your job as a writer, your story should have a flow, and it should be building towards THE BIG EVENT. Your reader probably has some ideas about what's going to happen in your story's high point and how things will be resolved. That's where I try to "surprise" them. Not "surprise" as in something totally outside the realm of the story (like killer clowns randomly showing up and murdering the bad guy or whatever), but something that fits the tone of the story while simultaneously not being the obvious choice of resolution. Also (again, generally speaking), I think stories that don't do that to some extent tend to fall flat.



Yes, I remember a very good story of your’s where I was pleasantly surprised with the motivation of a busker.  As I recall, he chooses not get involved in the riot or try to change the system, but rather finds solace in sharing his music...what he has to offer.  As you say, it has to be subtle, not hit you over the head.  

I think too often writers try to create a surprise by having a character do the exact opposite to what you expect, like the killer clown. Slightly off topic, but it reminds me of those tired endings in the who done its, where the killer confesses to the person he is about to kill.  And it takes just long enough for the police to arrive.  I hope people stop using that trick!


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## Taylor (Feb 3, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> I was stunned to be honest. I'd written that section a particular way so that the reader would perhaps then understand why I'd written it the way I had compared to the body of text surrounding it. I didn't expect that from a snippet though. I expected that from a full read through. Subtext is my thing ... But it's SO specific, it gave me goosebumps. If it was a guess, it was a bloody good one lol.



Sounds like that was a success!  Take a bow.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 3, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Yes, I remember a very good story of your’s where I was pleasantly surprised with the motivation of a busker.  As I recall, he chooses not get involved in the riot or try to change the system, but rather finds solace in sharing his music...what he has to offer.  As you say, it has to be subtle, not hit you over the head.
> 
> I think too often writers try to create a surprise by having a character do the exact opposite to what you expect, like the killer clown.  You know the bad guy, suddenly becoming the good guy or vice versa.  slightly off topic, but it reminds of those tired endings in the who done it’s, where the killer confesses to the person he is about to kill.  And it takes just long enough for the police to arrive.  I hope people stop using that trick!



Yeah, you've got to keep it subtle. If you go in thinking you're going to write a surprise end (or twist end), your whole focus will be on that and that alone. You'll probably end up finishing the story too quickly and not expanding much on what matters, the journey there.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 3, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Sounds like that was a success!  Take a bow.



I'm still convinced it was a guess, even though it was a bloody good one. Nobody else has spotted it so I have to think it's not obvious.


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## VRanger (Feb 3, 2021)

Not only do I intend to surprise the reader, but when writing adventure, you'd BETTER surprise the reader, and as often as possible.

In the sci-fi book I wrote last Spring, there are--by my informal mental count today--ten of what I'd call "major surprises", and quite a few small ones. I've got surprises all over the place in the heroic fantasy I wrote before that, and my WIP has several, also.

To answer Taylor's question of "How", there are a number of techniques.

* Directly introduce an event the reader doesn't suspect, like the murder of an important character.
* Describe a well-constructed plan and then make it go wrong at a critical point.
* Lead the reader to draw one conclusion through well-planned but ambivalent clues, then reveal the opposite situation at the end.
* Have something seemingly impossible happen, but have a GOOD explanation ready for how it could.
* Introduce a minor event early, then reveal it to have more severe consequences than expected later. Again, have a GOOD reason ready. (I just did the back end of this one last night).
* Let a character switch expectations (a good/bad guy turns into a bad/good guy).

I'm sure there are other suggestions, but I'll let others have some fun, too. 

I'm proud of one I did for the third bullet point down in the sci-fi novel. The MC assumed two men were agents of the bad guy, and the two men assumed the MC and party were agents of the bad guy. I wrote dialogue that carries the reader down that path, but I worked a long time to craft dialogue which also supported that both groups were mistaken, if you read it from that point of view. The dialogue was complicated because the MC and group had to think the two men thought they were working against the villain (they were, and thought they'd just been caught at it), while the two men thought they were working WITH the villain. So both sides were mistaken as to identity AND motive, and both the circumstances and dialogue had to support both the mistaken viewpoints and the real situation. It took a LOT of thinking to make that work.

The payoff when the MC finally tumbles to what has been going on is nice.

Here's a BIG rule for surprises, with an introduction. Sometimes the lack of a surprise is a surprise. If things ALWAYS go wrong for characters to give them plenty of challenges, then "things going wrong" is no longer a surprise. The reader expects something to go wrong each time the characters take on a new task. So that leads to two thoughts: First, don't surprise the reader every time the protagonists take on a new task, because it won't take long before the reader expects it. Second, if you know the reader IS suspecting a surprise, not giving them a surprise can be a surprise.


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## EternalGreen (Feb 3, 2021)

Eh, I dislike stories that try to convince you that A is going to happen just to "surprise" me with something else. I think a good story "grounds" all surprises.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 3, 2021)

EternalGreen said:


> Eh, I dislike stories that try to convince you that A is going to happen just to "surprise" me with something else. I think a good story "grounds" all surprises.



I think there's room for surprises but equally as effective is foreshadowing. Readers like to think they're more intelligent than the writer, so a few well placed clues or foreshadowing gives them a nice endorphin rush.


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## Taylor (Feb 3, 2021)

I really like your advice...and I think the concept of GOOD explanation or reason is key.  How do you test for "GOOD"?



vranger said:


> * Lead the reader to draw one conclusion through well-planned but ambivalent clues, then reveal the opposite situation at the end.



I'm really drawn to this technique.  I am trying to do this in my current WIP.  But I feel like to make this really work without making the reader feel you tricked them, you can't just reveal it all at the end as a  complete surprise.  To me it's a better read when you start to reveal hints of the opposite situation near the downward end of the arc.  This way if the reader starts to put two and two together, it is more satisfying when they realize they figured it out.  I always piss off my husband when we are watching a movie and I figure out the ending and blurt it out before he gets it.  Strangely it gives me a sense of accomplishment. We’re a little competitive that way.  




vranger said:


> Second, if you know the reader IS suspecting a surprise, not giving them a surprise can be a surprise.


  See now I think this would be harder to write well, but so much more interesting.  I might incorporate this idea into a future project.  Thanks!


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## Taylor (Feb 3, 2021)

EternalGreen said:


> Eh, I dislike stories that try to convince you that A is going to happen just to "surprise" me with something else. I think a good story "grounds" all surprises.



Yeah, I agree, that's what I was trying to say above.  In my mind, you have to create some doubt to keep the reader guessing.  If you are making too strong of a case of A, it may seem obvious it's not going to happen.  You need to also introduce the possibility of B.


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## bdcharles (Feb 3, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Do you like to surprise your reader and if so, how do you do it?



I would if I had some more skill at it. I like to think I’m fair-to-middling at taking readers on journeys but surprising them narratively somewhat eludes me unless it happens by mistake. I have an idea for a short story that has a surprise in it, a hopefully cool reveal somewhere at the centre, but I’m not sure how to write it such that it works. It’s definitely my next thing to crack.


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## VRanger (Feb 4, 2021)

Taylor said:


> I really like your advice...and I think the concept of GOOD explanation or reason is key.  How do you test for "GOOD"?



Just like my answer in the "Write what you know" thread. Make it make sense. Of course, the more complicated the scenario, the more details to account for. And if you've missed something, hopefully an early reader will point it out to you. But really, I think authors should be able to catch oversights in their own read through.



Taylor said:


> I'm really drawn to this technique.  I am trying to do this in my current WIP.  But I feel like to make this really work without making the reader feel you tricked them, you can't just reveal it all at the end as a  complete surprise.  To me it's a better read when you start to reveal hints of the opposite situation near the downward end of the arc.  This way if the reader starts to put two and two together, it is more satisfying when they realize they figured it out.  I always piss off my husband when we are watching a movie and I figure out the ending and blurt it out before he gets it.  Strangely it gives me a sense of accomplishment. We’re a little competitive that way.



In the example I discussed, I never told the reader that X was happening, only to later reveal Y.  I set up the action so the reader would assume X was happening. The MC assumed X, but I only revealed that in his dialogue (spoken or internal). I never said it in the voice of the narrator. Like I said, I made sure the dialogue supported either conclusion, and that was the tricky part. If a reader decided to go back and "check me", I wanted them to think, "OH! That's what THAT meant!" and not "Gotcha!".

So each action and each line of dialogue had to support both interpretations. Creating that puzzle was fun. Once it was time for the confusion to end, I didn't spring it all at once. I had the MC start to doubt a couple of his preconceptions. That gave the reader their last chance to turn it around in their mind before the MC finally states, in disgust, what he believes is really going on. In truth, I've only discussed it with two readers, but both of them bought X until the MC stated Y. LOL

On not giving them a surprise being a surprise:


Taylor said:


> See now I think this would be harder to write well, but so much more interesting.  I might incorporate this idea into a future project.  Thanks!



I've been reading a series of books where in the first four books, the MCs transportation is sabotaged in an effort to murder them. Like, four books in a row. Now I'm programmed to expect that to happen, but it hasn't happened in the last four books. The author absolutely overdid that mechanic by doing it in four books in a row, but since he did, now he gets free tension in every successive book. LOL

One way to do it is have the characters expect a certain event at a certain time, then just not have the specific thing they worry about happen. I think there's a big difference between telling the reader one thing and doing another, versus having a character expect something that doesn't happen. It's quite fair for a character to be paranoid.


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## Tettsuo (Feb 4, 2021)

I don't think surprised is the best word to use.

Unexpected maybe? I dunno.

I don't think any reader should be surprised that a character did a thing or some action took place. The reader should be given sufficient clues that once a thing happens, they may feel "surprised" but not totally. I like the "Oh wow, I forgot about that!" moments.

Deux ex machina should be avoided at all cost. Which is why re-writes are so awesome.


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## EmmaSohan (Feb 4, 2021)

There are two slightly different issues. I love being surprised as reader, and I like to put that in my writing.

But if the character is surprised, AND the reader is surprised, you have done most of the work to making the reader feel what that character is feeling. That would be a really important second advantage.


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## Llyralen (Feb 4, 2021)

I read the article— cool!   I’m trying to think of times that I’ve felt tricked... but maybe those books don’t make it to my library, I don’t know. 

Our writer’s group has a member who is all about the “big reveal”.   But it ends up not being suspenseful and feels defeating for the reader— basically another weird twist on top of other things that also don’t make sense.   My husband (who also loves the idea of reveals) and I have talked at length about what is going wrong so that we don’t make the same mistake and we do try to convey our reaction to our friend, but it’s slow going with him. He only half-listens and then says “I just love reveals.”   The problem is that he sees holes in what he has written that he thinks his readers should be on the edge of their seats for answers to but because there are other holes that he doesn’t care about then for the reader there’s tons of holes— so many that we are only reading out of courtesy (sorry!) to our friend.   When the “big reveal” happens it feels like we’ve been asked to accept something strange the way we’ve been asked to accept every other strange thing in the book.   

What I keep asking him to try is to very deliberately plant his question in the mind of a character. .   Especially since he writes fantasy and so much is just explained by “magic” that if he doesn’t deliberately create a question for at least one of his characters then we think it’s just part of all the other holes.   And you know... a writer doesn’t tell you everything so unless there is a step by step for everything going on then there are natural holes.    I don’t know... we keep studying this idea actually.    I also have had to say to my husband several times “Why hold back on that information? When they get it, it’s not going to rock their world— it’s just someone’s name which would help the reader to orient, so whether you tell it now or tell it later— big deal?”    Oh I’m so mean!    I HAVE to say though that this experience has improved my husband’s writing 100%.  He really started digging into what is suspenseful and what isn’t and it’s just all working so well imo!  


I think it’s hard to put yourself into your reader’s shoes when you’re the writer, I think.   I think it’s a particularly important part of the art form or craft of writing and probably makes a huge impact on how and what you write.   What do you give and when?   It’s not enough just to know the story yourself and describe it well, is it?   Or at least for many genres it isn’t enough. 

That might be the rule of thumb maybe for “reveals” might be to ask if the piece of information would be helpful to the reader earlier?  If withheld does it make the information cooler?  Or is it just a piece of information to accept and incorporate into that world like any other piece of information?   Also, is the question planted  in the mind of the reader or are they just going along for the ride? 

The Prestige is a fascinating look at reveals done right and the concept of reveals, imo.


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## VRanger (Feb 4, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> Out writer’s group has a member who is all about the “big reveal”.   But it ends up not being suspenseful and defeating for the reader— basically another weird twist on top of other things that also don’t make sense.
> 
> ... he writes fantasy and so much is just explained by “magic” that if he doesn’t deliberately create a question for at least one of his characters then we think it’s just part of all the other holes.
> 
> That might be the rule of thumb maybe for “reveals”.   Basically would the piece of information be helpful earlier?  If withheld does it make the information cooler?  Or is it just a piece of information to accept and incorporate into that world like any other piece of information?     The Prestige is a fascinating look at reveals done right and the concept of reveals, imo.



Most of the time when I think about 'reveals', I think about mysteries. The best mysteries are what I call "Fair Mysteries", in that the reader gets all the clues at the same time as the characters responsible for solving it, and those are not easy to write. Even the best mystery writers sometimes pull a rabbit out of the hat at the end, and it makes me roll my eyes.

When magic is involved, it's actually quite a bit more simple. An author should not resolve a crisis with magic they haven't given the reader at least a glimpse of earlier. You surprise the reader by using something they know is in the toolbox, but in a clever way. Anything else is either inexperience, lack of talent, laziness, or a straight up goof missed by both author and editor. I'm about to do something on that order to end my WIP. A magical contrivance I've shown the reader three times is going to resolve the climax, but in a way I don't believe the reader will expect. I want the reader to do a facepalm and say, "Why didn't *I* think of that?"


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## EmmaSohan (Feb 4, 2021)

And this is probably true just for the movies, but James Bond gets into a hopeless situation, and he is surely going to fail and die, and he pulls out of his pocket . . . a device we were told about at the start of the movie. And that I have always forgotten about. So I get this element of surprise resolution, but it is totally fair.


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## Llyralen (Feb 4, 2021)

EmmaSohan said:


> And this is probably true just for the movies, but James Bond gets into a hopeless situation, and he is surely going to fail and die, and he pulls out of his pocket . . . a device we were told about at the start of the movie. And that I have always forgotten about. So I get this element of surprise resolution, but it is totally fair.



Good example.   You have to be shown though or otherwise you’re just like “He had that?   Well okay, sure, I guess.”


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## Taylor (Feb 4, 2021)

bdcharles said:


> I would if I had some more skill at it. I like to think I’m fair-to-middling at taking readers on journeys but surprising them narratively somewhat eludes me unless it happens by mistake. I have an idea for a short story that has a surprise in it, a hopefully cool reveal somewhere at the centre, but I’m not sure how to write it such that it works. It’s definitely my next thing to crack.



If I'm using *In Secret Dreams* as an example, then I would say you have a ton of skill in surprising readers with narative!   

What are you thinking is a surprise?.  Maybe our definitions differ.


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## Taylor (Feb 4, 2021)

vranger said:


> In the example I discussed, I never told the reader that X was happening, only to later reveal Y.  I set up the action so the reader would assume X was happening. The MC assumed X, but I only revealed that in his dialogue (spoken or internal). I never said it in the voice of the narrator. Like I said, I made sure the dialogue supported either conclusion, and that was the tricky part. If a reader decided to go back and "check me", I wanted them to think, "OH! That's what THAT meant!" and not "Gotcha!".



Oh yes, perfect way to describe it!    It must be a pleasant surprise. 



vranger said:


> So each action and each line of dialogue had to support both interpretations. Creating that puzzle was fun. Once it was time for the confusion to end, I didn't spring it all at once. I had the MC start to doubt a couple of his preconceptions. That gave the reader their last chance to turn it around in their mind before the MC finally states, in disgust, what he believes is really going on. In truth, I've only discussed it with two readers, but both of them bought X until the MC stated Y. LOL



The puzzle part is fun.  I'm doing something similar with dialogue, where mutiple conversations that are overheard by the same group of people, but they all hear different points at different times with a different sub group of people.  And the conversations all relate to the same crime.  So the reader should know that the conversations will all eventually come together for the Aha moment.  Depending on their understanding of the topic different readers will figure it out sooner than others.  Maybe that's not unique....but I'm having fun with it anyway!



vranger said:


> On not giving them a surprise being a surprise:
> 
> One way to do it is have the characters expect a certain event at a certain time, then just not have the specific thing they worry about happen. I think there's a big difference between telling the reader one thing and doing another, versus having a character expect something that doesn't happen. It's quite fair for a character to be paranoid.



Yeah I like this...it's sort of like real life.  Mine anyway...lol!


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## Taylor (Feb 4, 2021)

Tettsuo said:


> I don't think surprised is the best word to use.
> 
> Unexpected maybe? I dunno.
> 
> ...



I looked up the defintion of surprise and perhaps it's not quite the right word, as it does mean unexpected by way of a force...but one of the synonyms is revelation. Which is kinda what I was meaning. Your reader comes to a new conclusion, by way of design, about something, a character, a plotline, etc.

Had never heard the term deux ex machina, but now that I looked it up, I totally agree!  But we all grew up with it in cartoons, with the likes of Superman scooping people up from falling off a cliff or Popeye gobbling a can of spinach and saving the day.  I wonder what long term effect that had on us.


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## Taylor (Feb 4, 2021)

EmmaSohan said:


> There are two slightly different issues. I love being surprised as reader, and I like to put that in my writing.
> 
> But if the character is surprised, AND the reader is surprised, you have done most of the work to making the reader feel what that character is feeling. That would be a really important second advantage.



Oh yes good point!   But typically when there is a revelation by the reader, a character will be surprised as well.  Like finding out who the murderer is.  I'm trying to think of an example of surpriseing the reader without a charcter being surprised.   What type of thing do did you have in mind here?



EmmaSohan said:


> And this is probably true just for the movies, but James Bond gets into a hopeless situation, and he is surely going to fail and die, and he pulls out of his pocket . . . a device we were told about at the start of the movie. And that I have always forgotten about. So I get this element of surprise resolution, but it is totally fair.



Yes, the devise must exist in advance, otherwise it's too much of deux ex machina (I Just learned that term from Tettsuo above).   But with James Bond, it's usually expected, so I wonder reading many James Bonds, if the reader is no longer surprised.  The biggest surprise would be if Ian Flemming finally killed him off. He could have an unknown daughter who could carry on the series.  That would be a surprise!


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## Taylor (Feb 4, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> Especially since he writes fantasy and so much is just explained by “magic” ...



I don't write fantasy, but I think even in a fantasy world, there has to be some parameters set out in the beginnig.  Like with Harry Potter, there are only so many established powers that your characters can have.  But honestly I don't know much about it.  Can you just invent magic to fill in the holes?

It's great that you have found a way to enlighten your husband about his writing, and that it is working.  It sounds like he was just holding back too much, something all of us writers should think about and test for.  



Llyralen said:


> Also, is the question planted  in the mind of the reader or are they just going along for the ride?



I'm not sure what you mean by this.  Can you elaborate?


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## MistWolf (Feb 4, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Oh yes good point!   But typically when there is a revelation by the reader, a character will be surprised as well.  Like finding out who the murderer is.  I'm trying to think of an example of surpriseing the reader without a charcter being surprised.   What type of thing do did you have in mind here?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, the devise must exist in advance, otherwise it's too much of deux ex machina (I Just learned that term from Tettsuo above).   But with James Bond, it's usually expected, so I wonder reading many James Bonds, if the reader is no longer surprised.  The biggest surprise would be if Ian Flemming finally killed him off. He could have an unknown daughter who could carry on the series.  That would be a surprise!



Not at all. James Bond is the seventh agent fo wear the "Double O". In one version, there are other double Os working concurrently. In another, there is only one, the previous double Os having been retired, usually with extreme prejudice. 

In the movies, we know Bond has a gadget, but it's often put to use in a way it wasn't intended. (I've only read one or two of the books.)

Yes, I like to surprise audience which are usually my players in an RPG. I became well known for having layers within layers in my plots, even in the simplest stories. Once, I thought I would surprise them by making the story straight forward. No layers, no twists, everything was as it seemed. At the end of the adventure when the mystery was solved and the players put the world to right, I sat back with a satisfied smile, waiting for the "Wow, that was fun!" comments certain to follow. Instead, they just stared. 

"Keep going," they said after a long awkward silence. 

Now I was surprised. "That's it. The adventure is over. The end."

"No, really. Keep going. What did we miss?"

"Nothing."

They gave me suspicious looks. "We know there's more. There's a loose end someplace and we missed it. Was it the old man in the alley? The newspaper he was sleeping under- it was a cipher, wasn't it?"

"No, you missed nothing."

They're still waiting for the other shoe to drop.


----------



## Llyralen (Feb 4, 2021)

Taylor said:


> I don't write fantasy, but I think even in a fantasy world, there has to be some parameters set out in the beginnig.  Like with Harry Potter, there are only so many established powers that your characters can have.  But honestly I don't know much about it.  Can you just invent magic to fill in the holes?
> 
> It's great that you have found a way to enlighten your husband about his writing, and that it is working.  It sounds like he was just holding back too much, something all of us writers should think about and test for.
> 
> ...




Gladly.  Both my husband and our friend love a “reveal” but because our friend is so BAD at setting up his reveals my husband has really dug into this question of what works or not and me too along with him.  We are trying to help ourselves ans our friend.  Im feeling so bad while I’m writing this— lol— but nobody knows who I’m talking about, luckily.  


J.K Rowling’s knows how to set up her reveals so that just like any mystery novel the answer was there to be had the whole time.  Let’s think of The time-traveling gadget.  Fantasy or regular the set up and reveal should be there. 

Here is an example of what our friend does:  Our friend’s main character is almost indestructible and is basically omnipotent and his Lois Lane is basically never in danger either without his MC preventing that danger so no weaknesses— not a very good combo for suspense, is it?   And he’s killing bad guys left and right except for the main bad guy and then out of the blue he just introduced other bad guy who he has difficulty killing.   Our author thinks that in the middle of a fight his audience should be thinking “Hmm... why can’t he kill this guy?  Think think think.”    Theres so much lore and stuff going on and we know nothing about this bad guy.  Then he gets the guy’s cloak away from the bad guy and is able to kill him and the audience (the reader) is supposed to think: “Oh there was something about his cloak?”   He then spends the next chapter on a back story about the bad guy’s childhood where he learns to be a killer from his father and where his father teaches him to put someone’s essence into this magic cloak. “.   The chapter then returns to the fight scene where the MC kills a bunch of other guys.   

It is at this moment of our writer’s group that I say “You should put this flashback before the fight.   It makes us interested in this bad guy’s character and builds suspense.” 

Our friend says, “No because I want you to wonder why the MC can’t kill him.”   I said “I never wondered that in the moment because he was still at it.” 

Our friend says “I want my readers to be questioning about that man and the cloak.” 
  I said “Then plant the question.” 
 “What?” 
 “Make it so that the MC is baffled or make it very clear that we should be wondering.” 
   Our friend: “No..I just think they should have a question and then they find out all of it and it’s like that guy’s cloak is like a portrait of Dorian Gray.”  

Okay, what?   I would have said it was more like a horcrux, but this is where the experience of reading is that in a fight scene we are just accepting action that is pouring in and I’m not trying to figure out what is going on with the back story of some guy’s cloak.   We expect for there to be difficulties in killing bad guys.  Was I not to expect that?  Should it feel like I’m brushing my teeth and then that something is wrong with the brush and wow...was my brush somehow tampered with by someone who is trying to overthrow the world of dentistry?    Anyway... just convoluted expectations of the author for the reader.   He keeps thinking we will be on the edge of our seats asking questions we didn’t think to ask.  

He was adamant that the chapter should be where it is.  I said “If you put the chapter earlier then his death will actually mean something and there will be suspense in the fight and it will make us interested in the fight.”    He does this so much that we are all burned out.  He thinks any questions that we ask him are manifestations of how into it we are instead of the guide to what it’s like to be on the other side that we hope we are.   He assumes he knows the experience of the readers is his basic problem and won’t listen.    Sigh...  

 I will write out some of the things my husband and I have learned from thinking about this in my next post. (Otherwise burnout from from trying to surmount a wall-of-text might ensue is what I assume correctly or incorrectly about the experience of my reader).


----------



## Taylor (Feb 4, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> Gladly.  Both my husband and our friend love a “reveal” but because our friend is so BAD at setting up his reveals my husband has really dug into this question of what works or not and me too along with him.  We are trying to help ourselves ans our friend.  Im feeling so bad while I’m writing this— lol— but nobody knows who I’m talking about, luckily.



I just read your OP and realized it was your 'friend' you were helping and not your 'husband', sorry for the confusion, I can be a lazy reader some time.  I'm going to take my time reading your great response...looking forward to it!  Stay tuned...


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## Taylor (Feb 4, 2021)

MistWolf said:


> Not at all. James Bond is the seventh agent fo wear the "Double O". In one version, there are other double Os working concurrently. In another, there is only one, the previous double Os having been retired, usually with extreme prejudice.
> 
> In the movies, we know Bond has a gadget, but it's often put to use in a way it wasn't intended. (I've only read one or two of the books.)
> 
> ...



So give it to them already!   

No seriously though, I think what you do is amazing.  It must require a great deal of skill and a quick mind.  How did you get into it?


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## Llyralen (Feb 4, 2021)

Things learned from listening to authors horrible at set-up and reveal: 

1.  If you took out the twist or reveal, the story should be interesting enough to hold up on its own. 

A great example is Fight Club. (Warning:  spoiler incoming,)    It was interesting as it was.  If Brad Pitt’s character had always just been one of those friends who makes you do stuff you shouldn’t do and Edward Norton killed him, it would be almost as interesting.  

2.  It should be interesting enough that with the second and third and infinity time you read it, there should still be things you notice and that are interesting.   

Example: Fight Club You realize Helena Bonham-Carter’s character is absolutely tragic as you realize how hurt she must be from his brush-offs and how he must be hot and cold. 

Example: Sixth-Sense.  It is still interesting to go back and see how Bruce Willis is dealing with the grieving of his wife.  After the twist you still see it all in an interesting way. 

3.  If possible it should feel like it was there all along in plain sight. 

Example: Fight Club.   There are so many places that it almost seemed that the author shoved it in your face, and yet you didn’t see it.   It’s the ultimate example because when you watch it again it was there every step of the way, running through-out the whole story. 

Okay Example:  Knives Out.  The clues were there, but going back they don’t tell their own full story in parallel with the original story like Fight Club does.  Not step by step anyway.  Knives Out is brilliant for the change in genre and how that played with your expectations, but it’s not supposed to be about the twist as much as Fight Club or Sixth Sense. 

More great examples: 
Example:  The Prestige.  It’s almost like a second story or alternative story or parallel story becomes available after you know the truth and it makes a re-watching or re-reading so interesting. 


Dead to Me (Netflix). This show reveals layer after layer.  You keep thinking you know what it’s about.  It’s also emotional as well as cerebral.  I don’t think that this show is getting nearly enough attention.  Honestly I do wonder if that is because it is about women.   Sorry, but very true...  J.K Rowling’s (who I am mentioning a lot today for some reason) said she chose a boy and removed any femininity in her name because she knew boys would not read a woman author or a female character.  This is a truth I have to always admit and face and the more we talk about it the better imo. 

Parasite. — planted all sorts of reveals and twists and also felt organic and dynamic.  Brilliant. 

Most of Hitchcock’s movies are a study in suspense.  Sometimes it’s better for an audience/reader to know things that the characters do not. 

Poorer or Less-effective but still writing to talk about Examples: 
M. Night Shyamalon’s other stuff.  Signs (the twist seems so contrived.  War of the Worlds committed better to scarier aliens and more realistic downfall.  Signs depends on aliens who just wait for people to hit them with baseball bats and who are burned by water on a planet they’ve come to that is largely water.    
The Village—- probably had 2 or even 3 reveals and the story depended too much on the monsters imo.  I would have liked something more psychological done with it, or something to be said about the human condition. 


That’s kind of what we’ve learned in a nutshell.  It might be really obvious to others, I don’t know.  Hopefully it is of use to someone.    The set up is the real work, imo.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 4, 2021)

Thinking about this, what are we discussing really? In any writing, the writer should be trying to surprise the reader. It's the essence of a page turner. Question > answer > question > answer and so forth. The answer can either be a mystery solved, a conundrum resolved or an unexpected tangent/twist. 

I think for this to not get in the weeds, a specific definition needs to be established. I personally, when I first saw the thread, thought it was about 'twist' endings, which are great but often overused and seldom subtle. Discussing what makes them subtle would then focus the discussion specifically and stop it getting in the weeds.


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## EmmaSohan (Feb 4, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Oh yes good point!   But typically when there is a revelation by the reader, a character will be surprised as well.  Like finding out who the murderer is.  I'm trying to think of an example of surprising the reader without a character being surprised.   What type of thing do did you have in mind here?!



Well, there is an interesting exception. I think readers tend to forget that a character is not their normal, so it's possible to pull off surprises to the reader just by having the character be in character. Evanovich (Plum Series) has two characters that can easily surprise me just by being in character (Lula and Grandma Mazur). When I rewrote the Wonder Wizard of Oz, that kind of surprise was reasonably easy to pull off with The Scarecrow, The Tinman, and The Lion.

Example, sorry it's a little long. Dorothy is hungry and the Scarecrow has just discovered the kitchen is directly below them



> Scarecrow: "So, you could hold a rope, and I could climb out. Then you could lower me to the kitchen and then pull me back up after I've taken some food. I don't weigh much."
> 
> Dorothy: "We don't have a rope."
> 
> ...


----------



## EmmaSohan (Feb 4, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> Thinking about this, what are we discussing really? In any writing, the writer should be trying to surprise the reader. It's the essence of a page turner. Question > answer > question > answer and so forth. The answer can either be a mystery solved, a conundrum resolved or an unexpected tangent/twist.
> 
> I think for this to not get in the weeds, a specific definition needs to be established. I personally, when I first saw the thread, thought it was about 'twist' endings, which are great but often overused and seldom subtle. Discussing what makes them subtle would then focus the discussion specifically and stop it getting in the weeds.



A good idea, though I was planning on saying the opposite. The discussion is focusing on the big surprises, or mysteries. My style of writing is to, as much as possible, put in little surprises. I think there is a flow to writing, a direction, but I turn that off for something the character does that might be unexpected. We should talk about the techniques for doing that.

I'm thinking surprise with insight, surprise with delight, surprise with disgust, surprise with pathos. Like it's salt or sugar and can be added to anything.

Added example:


> He has a house, a dog, a toaster, and a level of maturity I suspect I haven't yet obtained. (TrickyTwenty-Two,Evanovich)


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 4, 2021)

EmmaSohan said:


> A good idea, though I was planning on saying the opposite. The discussion is focusing on the big surprises, or mysteries. My style of writing is to, as much as possible, put in little surprises. I think there is a flow to writing, a direction, but I turn that off for something the character does that might be unexpected. We should talk about the techniques for doing that.
> 
> I'm thinking surprise with insight, surprise with delight, surprise with disgust, surprise with pathos. Like it's salt or sugar and can be added to anything.
> 
> Added example:



I understand what you mean but that's the bread and butter of good writing in general. The second paragraph may have a question answered in the third paragraph. The fourth paragraph may have a question answered on the next page. The first paragraph may have a question answered in chapter 10 and so forth. It's like a constant overlap of tiny mysteries and questions, answered short term or long term. 

You could have a character doing something unexpected but without at least some foreshadowing of that, it would come across as out of character. In terms of 'techniques' they're endless and none specific. Perhaps give me an example of what you mean? I might be misinterpreting.


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## EmmaSohan (Feb 4, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> I understand what you mean but that's the bread and butter of good writing in general. The second paragraph may have a question answered in the third paragraph. The fourth paragraph may have a question answered on the next page. The first paragraph may have a question answered in chapter 10 and so forth. It's like a constant overlap of tiny mysteries and questions, answered short term or long term.
> 
> You could have a character doing something unexpected but without at least some foreshadowing of that, it would come across as out of character. In terms of 'techniques' they're endless and none specific. Perhaps give me an example of what you mean? I might be misinterpreting.



If there's a question, the answer usually isn't unexpected. If your MC might live or die, the reader knows those possibilities. In a way, surprise is inconsistent with suspense or drawing out a scene.

 In my example above, there's no foreshadowing, and it's not out of character, it just isn't what the reader expects. The odd-ending-to-a-conjunction is just one way of doing it, though the easiest to give an example for.

Jade has had two interactions with Alex. High school. Everything that happens in this scene is plausible and in character; Alex is already known to follow his own drummer.



> It's before school, and I'm sitting in a stall in the girls' bathroom, softly crying. For the third time one of my friends knocks on the stall door to see if I'm okay. "Go away," I mumble. I'm not ready to pretend to be normal.
> 
> And a male voice says, "Jade?"
> 
> ...



Is that what you meant by bread-and-butter of writing?


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## Kent_Jacobs (Feb 4, 2021)

EmmaSohan said:


> If there's a question, the answer usually isn't unexpected. If your MC might live or die, the reader knows those possibilities. In a way, surprise is inconcistent with suspense or drawing out a scene.
> 
> In my example above, there's no foreshadowing, and it's not out of character, it just isn't what the reader expects. The odd-ending-to-a-conjunction is just one way of doing it, though the easiest to give an example for.
> 
> ...



That's in character though, right? You've written the character in such a way that it is something he'd do. A question does not have to be specifically asked. It can be part of the narrative that throws that question up. It's not going to be something like 'Will bill get the girl?'. It'll be a sequence of events showing how bill has tried and failed several times. That's what I mean by 'question'. It's just a word to cover mysteries that form from the narrative itself, not a direct 'will bill get the girl'. 

I wouldn't necessarily call a boy going into a girl's toilet a surprise. I would however call Luke finding out his father is Vadar a surprise though. That's one that did come from nowhere and wasn't foreshadowed, but it works because it's plausible within the universe Lucas created. It also doesn't rely on any character traits and it only relies on plot.


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## MistWolf (Feb 4, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> Thinking about this, what are we discussing really? In any writing, the writer should be trying to surprise the reader. It's the essence of a page turner. Question > answer > question > answer and so forth. The answer can either be a mystery solved, a conundrum resolved or an unexpected tangent/twist.



Exactly


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## VRanger (Feb 5, 2021)

Taylor said:


> The puzzle part is fun.  I'm doing something similar with dialogue, where mutiple conversations that are overheard by the same group of people, but they all hear different points at different times with a different sub group of people.  And the conversations all relate to the same crime.  So the reader should know that the conversations will all eventually come together for the Aha moment.  Depending on their understanding of the topic different readers will figure it out sooner than others.  Maybe that's not unique....but I'm having fun with it anyway!



I'd love to read this when it's ready. Sounds VERY interesting.


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## Llyralen (Feb 5, 2021)

TheMightyAz said:


> Thinking about this, what are we discussing really? In any writing, the writer should be trying to surprise the reader. It's the essence of a page turner. Question > answer > question > answer and so forth. The answer can either be a mystery solved, a conundrum resolved or an unexpected tangent/twist.
> 
> I think for this to not get in the weeds, a specific definition needs to be established. I personally, when I first saw the thread, thought it was about 'twist' endings, which are great but often overused and seldom subtle. Discussing what makes them subtle would then focus the discussion specifically and stop it getting in the weeds.



I agree, there are probably different tactics for small surprises or huge plot twists.   The article seemed to show a few medium to big sized twists and/or surprises.  The writer says surprise, don’t trick.   He says make sure it doesn’t feel manipulative.   

Do you guys have any examples of when you felt tricked or manipulated while reading?


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## VRanger (Feb 5, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> Here is an example of what our friend does:  Our friend’s main character is almost indestructible and is basically omnipotent



Not an uncommon rookie mistake, but terrible, terrible writing. I could feel a bit guilty here, because I have a hero in my fantasy series who has a talisman level enchanted sword, and it's unwise to take him on in a sword fight. However, about two-thirds of the way into the first book he leads a group into a trap and takes a cut across a leg that cripples him. You can't have supermen hanging around to save every day. The writers of Superman comics understood that. Most of the time, Superman's powers are for various reasons not the solution to his current adventure, and he has to think his way into a solution rather than power through it.



Llyralen said:


> And he’s killing bad guys left and right except for the main bad guy and then out of the blue he just introduced other bad guy who he has difficulty killing.



One of my quibbles with questionable screenwriting, too. The hero is a crack shot who takes down henchmen right and left, but always missed the main villain. LOL Bad, lazy plotting.



Llyralen said:


> He then spends the next chapter on a back story about the bad guy’s childhood where he learns to be a killer from his father and where his father teaches him to put someone’s essence into this magic cloak. “.   The chapter then returns to the fight scene where the MC kills a bunch of other guys.



Yet another rookie mistake. I've known good authors who can pull out of dialogue for a couple of pages of backstory, but I've never seen them do it from action. Plus, a chapter length backstory doesn't fly.



Llyralen said:


> It is at this moment of our writer’s group that I say “You should put this flashback before the fight.   It makes us interested in this bad guy’s character and builds suspense.” Our friend says, “No because I want you to wonder why the MC can’t kill him.”   I said “I never wondered that in the moment because he was still at it.”



It sounds like this poor guy is a lost cause. Nothing he's done is unfixable when it happens in a first effort, but it's unfixable if the guy feels he has nothing to learn and has no curiosity about whether he's making bad decisions in plotting and characterization. I'm not a big fan of the beta reader thing myself, at least not for experienced writers, but this guy's only hope may be to have some beta readers who he doesn't know personally critique his work and each tell him with similar notes what a pile of crap he's writing.


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## Llyralen (Feb 5, 2021)

vranger said:


> It sounds like this poor guy is a lost cause. Nothing he's done is unfixable when it happens in a first effort, but it's unfixable if the guy feels he has nothing to learn and has no curiosity about whether he's making bad decisions in plotting and characterization. I'm not a big fan of the beta reader thing myself, at least not for experienced writers, but this guy's only hope may be to have some beta readers who he doesn't know personally critique his work and each tell him with similar notes what a pile of crap he's writing.




LOL!   It is pretty sad that we’ve learned so much about what not to do from him!


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## Llyralen (Feb 5, 2021)

EmmaSohan said:


> If there's a question, the answer usually isn't unexpected. If your MC might live or die, the reader knows those possibilities. In a way, surprise is inconsistent with suspense or drawing out a scene.
> 
> In my example above, there's no foreshadowing, and it's not out of character, it just isn't what the reader expects. The odd-ending-to-a-conjunction is just one way of doing it, though the easiest to give an example for.
> 
> ...



I really enjoyed this clip of your story, Emma!  It is delightful and I do want to know about the posters and it is like adding salt and sugar isn’t it?    I like that very much!


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## Taylor (Feb 6, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> It is at this moment of our writer’s group that I say “You should put this flashback before the fight.   It makes us interested in this bad guy’s character and builds suspense.”
> 
> Our friend says, “No because I want you to wonder why the MC can’t kill him.”   I said “I never wondered that in the moment because he was still at it.”
> 
> ...



Haha...now I see what you mean by:



Llyralen said:


> "Also, is the question planted in the mind of the reader or are they just going along for the ride?



I think it's a common error for novices.  The assumption that you as a writer should be in control of how and when to dish out the information.  And make assumptions about what the reader is assuming from your words.  That's why beta readers are so important.  I have a great beta reader who checks my work for this.  She'll make comments like, "Why does she care?"  Or "I didn't even now she was in the room."   It's invaluable to me.  

But bar none, the worst mistake of a novice is not to listen when people are trying to help.  But good on you guys for trying, and like you say, you are learning a lot from the exercise.


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## Llyralen (Feb 6, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Haha...now I see what you mean by:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you for reading that, it was long.  Also my toothbrush analogy probably didn’t help.  Lol.  We covered most of this here luckily with talking about putting questions in the mind of your character so that you can experience with them and also talking about setting up before, not after.   I do agree that most important of all is to listen.  Thank goodness for a good beta reader!  I am really looking forward to your book especially with some of the descriptions of what you are doing in this thread.


----------



## Taylor (Feb 6, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> Things learned from listening to authors horrible at set-up and reveal:
> 
> 1.  If you took out the twist or reveal, the story should be interesting enough to hold up on its own.



I love that you said this!  I have been thinking this myself, and just not sure how to articulate it.  I just finished a couple of recent bestsellers, won't mention names because I'm about to trash them.  But, if I wasn't in research mode I wouldn't have finished them.  It's like they start with the crime and then seem like they are in a big rush to get to the end so they can do the big reveal.  I guess there is a market for that...a pretty big one.  But personally I prefer reading more introspective stories.  And stories where I learn something, like a piece of history.  I think you and I share that passion.



Llyralen said:


> A great example is Fight Club. (Warning:  spoiler incoming,)    It was interesting as it was.  If Brad Pitt’s character had always just been one of those friends who makes you do stuff you shouldn’t do and Edward Norton killed him, it would be almost as interesting.
> 
> 2.  It should be interesting enough that with the second and third and infinity time you read it, there should still be things you notice and that are interesting.
> 
> ...



Exactly!  That's what I am shooting for.  So I'm slipping little tidbits in all the time.  I just hope the pendulum doesn't swing and i put too much in, but a beta reader will be able to help me with that.  Do you think it's easier to edit out then add in if too vague?



Llyralen said:


> Example: Fight Club.   There are so many places that it almost seemed that the author shoved it in your face, and yet you didn’t see it.   It’s the ultimate example because when you watch it again it was there every step of the way, running through-out the whole story.
> 
> Okay Example:  Knives Out.  The clues were there, but going back they don’t tell their own full story in parallel with the original story like Fight Club does.  Not step by step anyway.  Knives Out is brilliant for the change in genre and how that played with your expectations, but it’s not supposed to be about the twist as much as Fight Club or Sixth Sense.
> 
> ...



Thanks for taking the time to set out examples.  I have them on my readling, watching list.  So right about Hitchcok. He was a master of suspense! I haven't watched one for years, but Psycho would be a good one to start with.  How does he hint at Norman Bates?



Llyralen said:


> That’s kind of what we’ve learned in a nutshell.  It might be really obvious to others, I don’t know.  Hopefully it is of use to someone.    The set up is the real work, imo.



Totally agree about the set up.   I think that's what slowed me down as I started down the arc.  Making sure, enough was in place, and realistic enough that it doesn't stand out.  I try to give out my clues mostly in dialogue.  This has added a challenge, because not only does it have to inform, the conversation has to sound natural in both speech and placement.  Would these two be having this conversation at this time and in this place?  If no, it's a huge giveaway.

Your previous post is so useful! Thank you for taking the time to share your analysis. Maybe we can thank your friend for that too. 

There should be a place on this forum where we can record such informative posts for future reference.


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## Taylor (Feb 6, 2021)

Llyralen said:


> Thank you for reading that, it was long.  Also my toothbrush analogy probably didn’t help.  Lol.  We covered most of this here luckily with talking about putting questions in the mind of your character so that you can experience with them and also talking about setting up before, not after.   I do agree that most important of all is to listen.  Thank goodness for a good beta reader!  I am really looking forward to your book especially with some of the descriptions of what you are doing in this thread.



Awe thanks!  I wish I could go faster, because I can't wait to have people like you read it.  Hopefully by April.

BTW: My pleasure to read!


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## MistWolf (Feb 7, 2021)

Taylor said:


> So give it to them already!



Heh! A man with a wooden leg has only one shoe to drop. 

A storyteller has promises that must be kept. Such as disappearing or killing off characters. I had one very important NPC disappear without a trace. No one knows what happened to him or whether he's alive or dead. I've never even so much as hinted to his fate. It's going to stay that way.

I found myself in a situation where I knew a player character was on her way to her death. She wasn't supposed to die, but the chain of events put into play made it inevitable. My character (also an Elf) even warned her in story she was heading to her death. Orcs, who'd sworn loyalty to another Elf were supposed to go meet a contingent of Elves sent to stop this mission to save the world (because of the political fallout it would create) and sacrifice their lives delaying them long enough for the party to escape. Instead, the PC decided that was her duty. My character and a very important NPC went with her and did engage in an epic battle and have glorious deaths. It wasn't a D&D campaign. It wasn't D&D. In this game, dead id dead. No resurrection, no raise dead, not even reincarnation.

All three characters are _dead_ and will remain so forever. There are promises that must be kept.



> No seriously though, I think what you do is amazing.  It must require a great deal of skill and a quick mind.  How did you get into it?



GI Joe. The original 12 inch GI Joe with Jeeps, space capsules, rifles, pistols, backpacks, bazookas, canteens, bayonets, gear- everything you could want for exciting adventures and storytelling. I built GI Joe a secret headquarters, making tables, chairs and benches from small boxes and used a couple of portable cassette players for computers. GI Joe worked for O.A.S.E.S. (Organization Against Syndicated Enemy Spies) defending the world from world domination by Dr. Starker, head of DesArt (Destroyer's Artists). GI Joe had a long career, brought abruptly to an end by one of my cousin's Barbies who turned out to be a double agent. She slipped poison into GI Joe's hot chocolate. Fortunately, I had more than one GI Joe.

For as long as I can remember, I've had stories in my head. I remember playing "Detective Cat" when I was too young for kindergarten. Grandma had a stuffed leopard that was as big as I was at the age of four. Leopard and I had many, many adventures together. A short time later, we were joined by two smaller wildcats. That's why I so joyfully became a fan of "Calvin & Hobbes".

With my toy cars, I used to imagine a world where automobiles and trucks and Jeeps were actually alive, a world populated by creatures with wheels instead of legs.

We built towns in out backyard, complete with a road system, houses, buildings and an airport for our Tonkas and model aircraft.

Then, my grandmother bought my little brother a roleplaying game from TSR called _Top Secret_, taking our storytelling to whole new level.

Unfortunately, my writing "career" has always been a matter of sputtering starts. To be truthful, I've been afraid to write my stories because, what if no one liked them? What if I only have one good story in me? And, I lack discipline.

Currently, I'm trying to change that, working a temp job while I struggle to write. That's why I joined this forum and a few others.

Ok, I should stop now and go plot the demise of a tribe of humans at the hands of Elves.


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## Taylor (Feb 8, 2021)

Plot surprises can be more commonly referred to as a twist.  I thought this article from NY Book Editors blog sets it out well.  They pose a good question:

_"You can introduce the plot twist whenever you like?

*True or false? Plot twists must occur at the climax of the story.

*__*False.* Plot twists may appear anywhere within a story but are usually most effective after some careful setup. While it’s technically possible to swing a plot twist within the first chapter, it’s difficult to do. In the beginning of your story, the reader is open and the rules of assumption haven’t been established yet."
_
https://nybookeditors.com/2018/02/all-about-plot-twists/




*





*


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## Taylor (Feb 8, 2021)

EmmaSohan said:


> A good idea, though I was planning on saying the opposite. The discussion is focusing on the big surprises, or mysteries. My style of writing is to, as much as possible, put in little surprises. I think there is a flow to writing, a direction, but I turn that off for something the character does that might be unexpected. We should talk about the techniques for doing that.
> 
> I'm thinking surprise with insight, surprise with delight, surprise with disgust, surprise with pathos. Like it's salt or sugar and can be added to anything.





EmmaSohan said:


> Added example: He has a house, a dog, a toaster, and a level of maturity I suspect I haven't yet obtained. (TrickyTwenty-Two,Evanovich)



Perfect example of surprising the reader when the character is "in character."   As a reader, this is the style of writing that keeps my attention.  It is so hard to do though! 

It's very Oscar Wilde.  He was the master!  _The Importance of Being Earnest_:

_“I never travel without my diary. One should always have something sensational to read in the train.”

“If I am occasionally a little over-dressed, I make up for it by being always immensely over-educated.”

“Never speak disrespectfully of Society, Algernon. Only people who can’t get into it do that.”

_
I could go on forever...


EDIT:  But thanks for emphasizing the little surprises.  Those are the kind i aspire to do the most as a writer.


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## Taylor (Feb 8, 2021)

MistWolf said:


> GI Joe. The original 12 inch GI Joe with Jeeps, space capsules, rifles, pistols, backpacks, bazookas, canteens, bayonets, gear- everything you could want for exciting adventures and storytelling. I built GI Joe a secret headquarters, making tables, chairs and benches from small boxes and used a couple of portable cassette players for computers. GI Joe worked for O.A.S.E.S. (Organization Against Syndicated Enemy Spies) defending the world from world domination by Dr. Starker, head of DesArt (Destroyer's Artists). GI Joe had a long career, brought abruptly to an end by one of my cousin's Barbies who turned out to be a double agent. She slipped poison into GI Joe's hot chocolate. Fortunately, I had more than one GI Joe.
> 
> For as long as I can remember, I've had stories in my head. I remember playing "Detective Cat" when I was too young for kindergarten. Grandma had a stuffed leopard that was as big as I was at the age of four. Leopard and I had many, many adventures together. A short time later, we were joined by two smaller wildcats. That's why I so joyfully became a fan of "Calvin & Hobbes".
> 
> ...




What a delight this post was to read!  You have a lot of talent in storytelling!!

I would love to see more of your work, I'm *certain* you have more than one story and that people will like them. If you can write stories and keep this level of playfulness and subtlety, you have a big writing career ahead of you.


And as EmmaSohan was pointing out, it's these little surprises sprinkled in that may not be the bread and butter, but definitely the "sugar and the salt".


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## JJBuchholz (Feb 22, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Do you like to surprise your reader and if so, how do you do it?



Yes and no. It depends on the story I'm writing, and the number of plot points/devices that I am employing throughout the story
to make it all work. I prefer a slow reveal in most cases, and a huge climax if there is a lot of action involved. Dialogue also helps
to bring surprise, as the reader will get the reveal/surprise straight from the character's mouth as they see it.

-JJB


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## Taylor (Feb 25, 2021)

JJBuchholz said:


> Yes and no. It depends on the story I'm writing, and the number of plot points/devices that I am employing throughout the story
> to make it all work. I prefer a slow reveal in most cases, and a huge climax if there is a lot of action involved. Dialogue also helps
> to bring surprise, as the reader will get the reveal/surprise straight from the character's mouth as they see it.
> 
> -JJB



See now I think that's a great way to do it.  I am a big believer in telling the story surprises with dialogue.   I think it's much harder though, which is why a lot authors don't do it enough.  You have to make the language believable, but not mundane as many real life conversations are.

When I constructed my plot, I wanted to tell most of the story in dialogue.  So it was key to think about the big reveal at the end and who the MC would be taking to about it, so I would make sure I introduced a suitable character for that scene.  It took a lot of research and character development.  I hope I pull it off!  :distress:


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