# Racial Mixing: When do the offspring stop being mixed?



## wainscottbl (Aug 14, 2015)

So I want to have two stories with related characters, first cousins. Here is how it is:


Dante Bonaparte is a Creole of color. His first cousin, Seth Bonaparte is white Creole. They are cousins on their fathers side from his father. Both married white women. Genetically is it possible for Dante to be colored and Seth to be white?  

TIA. I know we have some biology dorks here!


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## Foxee (Aug 14, 2015)

My guess is that you'd need to know how skin color works as far as dominant and recessive traits on a Punnett square. Figuring in the various steps of how the two are related on the family tree would affect your square as well. Unfortunately, that's about all I remember on the subject from high school biology. Once you did the square you'd have degrees of probability for any particular skin color that could result from the parent genes.

Considering that there have been twins born to one set of parents, one twin black one twin white, I'd say that there is a wide range of possibility with the scenario you've laid out.


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## ppsage (Aug 15, 2015)

Dork back at you buster. Human pigmentation isn't a single-loci-classic-dominant/recessive genetic situation. The reaction of skin pigments to uv radiation is apparently the result of the interactive expression of alleles at several, or perhaps even many, locations. Persons of nearly identical genetic make-up can thus have a fairly wide morphological expression. Whether that expression falls over the line between 'colored' and 'white' is something determined by social and political judgement, not biology. Biologically it's possible for either one of your characters to be more darkly pigmented than the other, although probabilities may well be more one way than the other. ... All offspring are mixed, that's the point of sexual recombinance.


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## wainscottbl (Aug 15, 2015)

ppsage said:


> Dork back at you buster. Human pigmentation isn't a single-loci-classic-dominant/recessive genetic situation. The reaction of skin pigments to uv radiation is apparently the result of the interactive expression of alleles at several, or perhaps even many, locations. Persons of nearly identical genetic make-up can thus have a fairly wide morphological expression. Whether that expression falls over the line between 'colored' and 'white' is something determined by social and political judgement, not biology. Biologically it's possible for either one of your characters to be more darkly pigmented than the other, although probabilities may well be more one way than the other. ... All offspring are mixed, that's the point of sexual recombinance.



Yes, I noticed that with a doctor I met today who has an Algerian mother and Bulgarian father--or vice versa. So she is fairly "white", but her skin is olive toned more than fair. She had very, very high cheekbones, as I believe both Slavs and North African peoples tend to have those. And her hair was darker, but not really dark. So yeah, it's complicated. Also I knew this family up in Wisconsin when I was looking into being a priest. This angelic girl at the parish. Her name was Sarah. Her mother was mixed, and her father black (I think). He was dead. Anyway, she was quite "white", and one of her other siblings were, but the others were "mixed". It was interesting to observe the matter.


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## patskywriter (Aug 15, 2015)

I know you're looking for a genetic/scientific answer, but I've noticed that people are pretty much going to be what they say they are. I've seen white-skinned, red-haired folks (like my grandmother) proudly claim their African heritage, while other light-skinned neighbors married whites, moved out of the neighborhood, and never returned even for a visit. (Some people call that "crossing over.") I grew up with Creoles (I'm not one myself), and they considered themselves Creole above all else. To me, it seemed that simply by saying "Creole," you're equating it with mixed. I don't remember ever hearing "white Creole" or "black Creole." I recognize the fact that people who didn't grow up in Chicago's Chatham community in the 1960s and '70s might have different experiences and observations.


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## Riis Marshall (Aug 15, 2015)

Hello Wain

It depends to some extent on whether you're talking strictly about appearance or the social consequences.

To my understanding, a child will never be born lighter than the lighter parent nor darker than the darker parent. If any of you out there can direct me to any information suggesting this is inaccurate, please come back (yes I know there are stories about two 'white' parents producing a 'black' baby, the consequence of which, typically, is the 'white' mother is actually 'black').

If I remember my American history correctly, a child born 1/8 Afro American - one great grandparent Afro American and the other seven Caucasian, was regarded as 'black' and thus, pre-Civil War could be sold as a slave. You may want to check out Mark Twain's _Pudd'nhead Wilson_ for a horrible but, I believe, reasonably accurate instance of this.

Scary, sensitive stuff. Post responses with care.

All the best with your writing.

Warmest regards
Rii


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## bazz cargo (Aug 15, 2015)

A far as I know there is only the human race. 

Add to the mix, mutation. A much derided word that describes an essential piece of biology. 

http://www.regencyhistory.net/2011/10/queen-charlotte-1744-1818.html
For those who may find it interesting, most of Europe's royal lineage is of mixed ethnic roots.


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## Bloggsworth (Aug 15, 2015)

Never, it is locked in their DNA. Scientists can tell whether Yorkshire folk are descended from Danes, Vikings, Angles etc.


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## patskywriter (Aug 17, 2015)

Riis Marshall said:


> … To my understanding, a child will never be born lighter than the lighter parent nor darker than the darker parent. …



Absolutely untrue. This sort of thing happens all the time!


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## ppsage (Aug 17, 2015)

Since the human genome came up a couple magnitudes short of accounting for human protein variety, we enter the era of post transcription and post translation modification. It's like if you send an exact copy of your text to the publisher, but, before it gets to the printer, 286 copy editors modify it according to their view of the needs of the day, and then, after that's printed, a couple hundred thousand local librarians redact it to suit their idea of community standards. Gene expression is a long road and DNA is just the starting point.


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## Kevin (Aug 17, 2015)

> A far as I know there is only the human race.


 Hmm... maybe true, but in some bloodlines there is a remnant of Denisovan, Neanderthalis, and/or... an as of a yet 'unknown' similar, yet separate, now extinct, species.


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## Guy Faukes (Aug 17, 2015)

Dat science, ppsage. Respect. :]

*Q:* When do mixed offspring stop being mixed?
*A:* Never. You'll have no idea what their kids or grandkids will look like or have underneath given that meiotic events continue to randomize their potential genetic output, which means they're a bag of M&Ms that keeps mixing itself.



bazz cargo said:


> A far as I know there is only the human race.
> 
> Add to the mix, mutation. A much derided word that describes an essential piece of biology.
> 
> ...



The importance of race is very much a social and cultural construct. While some populations take on a certain appearances and traits given that they were initially seeded with a small group of founders, generally (and genetically), race is a superficial construct. Heck, Africans are the most genetically diverse group given that they are the oldest of the human populations.


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## Boofy (Aug 17, 2015)

Guy Faukes said:


> Dat science, ppsage. Respect. :]
> 
> *Q:* When do mixed offspring stop being mixed?
> *A:* Never. You'll have no idea what their kids or grandkids will look like or have underneath given that meiotic events continue to randomize their potential genetic output, which means they're a bag of M&Ms that keeps mixing itself.



Did somebody say M&Ms? 

And yeah. What he said... explanation stealing, maple syrup guzzling, Canadian [404 EXPLETIVES NOT FOUND] ^


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## Guy Faukes (Aug 17, 2015)

Boofy said:


> Did somebody say M&Ms?
> 
> And yeah. What he said... explanation stealing, maple syrup guzzling, Canadian [404 EXPLETIVES NOT FOUND] ^



Regular or peanut?

AND U NO TAKE MAPLE! MINE!


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## Boofy (Aug 17, 2015)

The biscuit ones, ya hoser ;D

And you promised me some maple if I disposed of that body for you. ._.

Also Wains, I should have mentioned in my post above... you gots any excerpts up on here from your WIP? Would like to read ^^;


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## Guy Faukes (Aug 17, 2015)

Boofy said:


> The biscuit ones, ya hoser ;D
> 
> And you promised me some maple if I disposed of that body for you. ._.



Biscuits? What are biscuits? Crazy girl. They're called pretzels XD

Oh, right... that "mannequin" wrapped in carpet. Right, right, I'll get your share for you.


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## Riis Marshall (Aug 17, 2015)

@Patsky

Please refer me to a legitimate paper or link, either through a post or PM.

And no, anecdotal references to Dinah Shore and George Montgomery don't count, nor do albino children born to African parents.

All the best with your writing.

Warmest regards
Riis


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## ppsage (Aug 17, 2015)

Riis Marshall said:


> @Patsky
> 
> Please refer me to a legitimate paper or link, either through a post or PM.
> 
> ...



My, probably far less extensive personal experience, reflects Patskywriter's exactly. I won't be bothered trying to make it less anecdotal, but I politely wonder, Riis, what academic foundation you have for your bald statement which is apparently not based just on personal experience? If there are such writings, that would be a good starting point to discover contrary evidence.


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## wainscottbl (Aug 18, 2015)

Thanks all! I should not have used the term "mixed". I guess the question was when do the "dark" or "light" die out if the black or white marries the the other race, but then those children marry the race of one of their parents, and then they marry the same race, etc. But it seems it's complicated. I know races are not these separate entities, but still my neighbors across the street are "black" and I am "white". I don't like using those terms, especially when you get to the technical like this, because there is no such thing as "white" and "black" as some pure, separate race. In any case, thanks for all the answers. 

And Creoles. I had a Creole friend. He was "Creole of color", not "black". He proudly considered himself not black. He said "yellow". Because his people had more rights than Negroes as they were called then. And his family is Creole, so it's a family pride thing. There are White Creoles, too, of course.


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## Riis Marshall (Aug 18, 2015)

Hello PP

I've articulated an hypothesis. If you have information that contradicts my assertion, please offer it up. Since I'm arguing the negative, it's impossible for me to prove something has never happened. You, on the other hand, are in the position of being able to present a counter example: a photo, perhaps, a scientific paper, etc.

I'm glad we've had this little chat.

All the best with your writing.

Warmest regards
Riis


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## Kevin (Aug 18, 2015)

I've witnessed the argument that a 'Cuban' is not black. Ha... So is it a cultural label relative to a place where it's used, or is it scientific? (typically a load of b.s. if you ask me, but we're stuck with the culture we live in) 


Mmm... I'd provide not much of anything without a contract/invoice. And it's quite all right going around being incorrect. Freedom...


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## Terry D (Aug 18, 2015)

Riis Marshall said:


> Hello PP
> 
> I've articulated an hypothesis. If you have information that contradicts my assertion, please offer it up. Since I'm arguing the negative, it's impossible for me to prove something has never happened. You, on the other hand, are in the position of being able to present a counter example: a photo, perhaps, a scientific paper, etc.
> 
> ...



Here's an explanation found with a simple search.

http://genetics.thetech.org/original_news/news27

It's not common for darker parents to have a lighter skinned child, but it isn't rare either.


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## Riis Marshall (Aug 18, 2015)

Hello Terry

Thanks for the reference. It looks like a good starting point. I think I need to spend quite a bit of time on it to understand the full implications.

All the best with your writing.

Warmest regard
Riis


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## ppsage (Aug 18, 2015)

Riis Marshall said:


> Hello PP
> 
> I've articulated an hypothesis. If you have information that contradicts my assertion, please offer it up. Since I'm arguing the negative, it's impossible for me to prove something has never happened. You, on the other hand, are in the position of being able to present a counter example: a photo, perhaps, a scientific paper, etc.
> 
> ...


My mistake. When you originally articulated your hypothesis so elegantly, and then when you required a 'legitimate paper' for its refutation, I mistakenly assumed it was more than unsupported personal speculation. I will not, however, be posting or pm'ing pictures of my acquaintance in this regard. So I guess this goes the way of all internet commentary. Thanks. pp


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## ppsage (Aug 18, 2015)

Discovery of skin pigmentation gene. Note the use of words like 'interferes' and 'hobbles,' indicative of a larger complexity in the genetic expression which leads to a particular pigmentation. Interesting as it is, this article does not, I'd say, directly address the question in the OP.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/15/AR2005121501728.html


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