# 08/18/08 - Cover Letter Scores (1 Viewer)



## Hawke

I'd like to extend a huge thank you to *Shawn, SacredCircle*, *eggo, Brightside *and *Triq *for judging this round. Also, a huge thank you to *eggo* for providing an excellent prompt, and to everyone who submitted. Well done, all. 

Note: The scores are all over the board this time. It happens. It’s all subjective and open to interpretation, etc. Please keep in mind that these are only opinions, so please don’t take them personally and/or give the judges a hard time.

And now, the moment you’ve all been waiting for—your LM scores.









Chaeronia - 14, 15, 14, 8, 0 = 51 - Average = 10.2
ohdear - 12, 18, 14, 17, 11 = 72 - Average = 14.4
Matthatter - 15, 16, 15, 15, 15 = 76 - Average = 15.2
Wildcard - 16, 19, 16, 18, 8 = 77 - Average = 15.4
speakerphone2 - 10, 5, 17, 10, 6 = 48 - Average - 9.6
eggo - N/A - Judge
Tiamat10 - 17, 18, 18, 11, 15 = 79 - Average = 15.8
AlittlePlum - 18, 16, 12, 17, 9 = 72 - Average = 14.4
geisha - 20, 19.5, 19, 17, 9 - 84.5 - Average = 16.9 
2.0 - 17, 18, 15, 16, 9 = 75 - Average = 15



*First place: geisha!*

*Second place: Tiamat10!*

*Third place:* *Wildcard! *

Congratulations! 


Note: Please let me know asap if there are any errors or omissions. Thank you.


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## Hawke

*Shawn's Scores*

---

*Chaeronia*

*"Application for Debt Manager (job ref: LS265)"*

While creative and engaging, this piece fails to address the prompt in a significant way and is also ridden with minute grammatical errors (easily caught on perusal) indicative of a rough draft.

14/20


*ohdear*

*"Untitled"*

This addresses the prompt. However, the brevity of the "letter" enhances the numerous grammatical and stylistic errors. The attempted gimmick was particularly ineffective because of this.

12/20


*Matthatter*

*"Untitled"*

This addresses the prompt neatly and follows a format expected of a cover letter. I would urge the author to study sentence construction more deeply in order to maintain this excellent tone, whilst excising most of the overly-verbiose prose. That accounts for the majority of point deductions.

15/20


*Wildcard*

*"Untitled"*

This addresses the prompt and follows a structure expected of a cover letter. Grammatically, this is nearly flawless. However, this piece does not display a matured writing style. I would also like to stress, to all authors, that alt + 0151 will produce an em dash.

16/20


*Speakerphone2*

*"Untitled"*

Despite the intention of "making a point" by omitting any standard of the English language ever known to man, I could not award any points for the grammatical correctness of this piece. This addresses the prompt, however, and follows what could be construed as a letter were it not for the aforementioned errors. This piece is, however, engaging; and for that I give my congratulations.

10/20


*Eggo*

*"Untitled"*

This completely addresses the prompt in a definite, safe manner. There are very few grammatical errors.

N/A - Judge


*Tiamat10*

*"Untitled"*

This addresses the prompt and delivers it in a consistent and appropriate tone. I fail to see, however, the manner in which an illiterate slob would understand the rules of syncopation but remain ignorant of proper spelling.

17/20


*ALittlePlum*

*"Untitled"*

This piece displays a good attempt at addressing the prompt in its entirety. For staying on topic, I remove any deductions that occured due to the minimal grammatical errors.

18/20


*Geisha*

*"Untitled"*

This piece displays a mature writing style and a superb command of the English language. The structure in which this is written is informed and is consistent with what would be expected of high satire. This is clearly the standout entry.

20/20


*2.0*

*"Untitled"*

While I would like to congratulate the author on their research (or expertise), the stylistic qualities of this did not impress me as much as I would have hoped. I would advise editing for deadwood and punctuation in future writings.

17/20


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## Hawke

_*SacredCircle's Scores*_

Chaeronia-15
This feels more like a story than a cover letter for a job opening. It is an interesting take on the idea on the prompt. 

OhDear-18
Very clever. I love your use of your words to sound professional and to show exactly which Monica you are. 

Matthatter-16
I feel like I must be missing something as to who these people are. If I am missing something and this has gone over my head, my apologies. 
This sounds more like you are talking with him than a cover letter. 

Wildcard-19
I really enjoyed this. It reads as a cover letter and creative. 

Speakerphone2-5

Eggo-N/A - Judge
Fantastic! I was truly carried away with the story you were able to tell. And wanting to be an ice cream truck driver was really the icing on the cake.

Tiamat10-18
I love it. You stayed in character throughout making this a very humorous read.

ALittlePlum-16
Clever idea and nicely done. 

Geisha-19.5
I just love this! Everything about this was really fun to read.

2.0-18


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## Hawke

*eggo's Scores*

Chaeronia-Application for Debt Manager (job ref: LS265) - 493 words

Great idea for a story here, but I don’t think you explored all the angles. A batsman isn’t likely to kill a dog and let it go at that.
More than likely this would serve as a warning for him to pay his debt and he would be back the next day.

14 / 20 


Ohdear- To Whom it May Concern

Haha, funny. A couple of errors here and there ( widespread is one word) and sort of a one-trick pony, but still funny.

14/20


Matthatter - No title

I thought the names in this story had some significance, but after a Google search came up empty. I like the voice here. Remained true to the mail-order wife thing pretty much all the way through.
Entertaining , but never really pushed the envelope.

15/20


Wildcard- no title

Nice use of font. Good ways to expand this idea and let it roam free a bit. I like the idea that hell is just an extension of what we do already and the nine to five drudgery lives on into eternity.

16/20


Speakerphone2- Ditzez 4 MiNiMuM wage!!1one
Loved this experiment in free flowing prose. I know someone who speaks exactly like this, so for me it was startling real.
A few slips from voice got you here and there, but I liked this.

17/20


Eggo- Life on the Side of the Road

What you lack in talent, you can only hope to glean in pity.


Tiamat10- No title

Laughed my ass off from front to back. I can only imagine him sending a video in showing how weel he does it hisself.
Excellent job.

18/20


Alitteplum- Talking Clock Inc.

Good idea. A little threadbare to carry this through though.

12/20


Geisha- no title



> My opinion was not a popular one with campus leaders, but I did have a large following of students who would meet with me late in the evenings to discuss your products, which paid for my last two years of schooling.


Hahaha.
Written very well. This was excellent use of the prompt.

19/20


2-0- no title

Roman turkey?
Sounds like a thanksgiving I’m going to skip. Although I can’t help but wonder what her professors gave her for grades.

15/20


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## Hawke

*Brightside’s Scores*

Title: Application for Debt Manager (job ref: LS265) 
Author: Chaeronia
I had trouble reading this to start with because of its short sentences. Tenuous link to the theme also, in my opinion – more of a story than a cover letter! Nasty twist at the end though, which I wasn’t expecting
8/20


Title: To Whom it May Concern
Author: Ohdear
Interesting! I wonder what ‘Monica’ you refer tooJ! Written well and easy to read, which equalled its easy tone.
17/20


Title: Mr. Thomas Hutchinson
Author: Matthatter
Lots of subtle hinting in this one! The writing is ok, and the style holds well throughout – though the theme of ‘selling one’s self’ got to me slightly at the end. Only slightly though!
15/20


Title: The human resources manager Northeastern sector, Hell.
Author: Wildcard
Loved the idea for this one – really took the theme and gave it an imaginative twist! Made me laugh, and well written.
18/20


Title: Ditzez 4 MiNiMuM wage!!1one
Author: Speakerphone2
I liked the idea, but it was hard to read – which I believe was what you intended, so it was a difficult one to score!
10/20


Title: "Life on the Side of the Road"
Author: eggo
A meandering look into a very weird man’s life!! The writing was fine, though I was waiting for the ‘shock’ at the first mention of Victoria.
N/A - Judge


Title: Dear Jim Bob Jeehosefat
Author: Tiamat10
Another tongue-in-cheek letter! Good idea, though I found the style hard to read, though I gather most of the writing was a style choice, based on character!
11/20

Title: Talking clock Inc
Author: AlittlePlum
Really gripped the theme here, I thought! A humorous idea, and well written. Enjoyed it. Cogsworth indeed!
17/20


Title:
Author: Geisha
Embraced the idea with gusto and it was easy to read. Had a serious writing tone that contrasted well with the content.
17/20


Title: 9-1-08
Author: 2.0
Well written English, with good structure, and sticks to the theme with a wry smile!
16/20


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## Hawke

*Triquediqual’s Scores *

*Chaeronia à*I don’t understand what you’re doing here at all. This is supposed to be a Job Application cover note. Do you not even know what a Cover Note is, there was no reference to why you should get a job, no reason as to why you are applying nor why you would be a good candidate and the job isn’t even mentioned. Thus, you haven’t answered the question posed, therefore I’ve no choice but to give you *0/20*.

Even if it was about “Your Job”, I found the text at time difficult to read and doesn’t flow well, the English quality is that of an average 14 year old schoolboy in my honest opinion, as a piece void of the actual question, it was nonetheless a boring and lacklustre piece with no originality whatsoever. It also wasn’t written in the style of a Cover Note. Absolutely awful and deserving of Negative Scoring however the rules show it was to be between 0-20 so for not answering the question, I’m sorry but you have to get 0/20 automatically.

*Ohdear **à*Firstly, I immediately notices some errors in Grammar, of which I dock you marks. The style and actual content was to the point, effective and written the way a cover note should be written. I felt you were writing too many “I am”s without actually backing it up, making your claims as good as any other person who may not be qualified, however it was a convincing piece. For the “Unfaithfully”, I’m docking marks because it’s just not funny, and doesn’t suit the piece at all…given the seriousness of the job cover note.

Taking 3 marks off for each mistake above, plus some of the wording was awkwardly used and lacked meaning at times, I’ll give this *11/20*

*Matthatter **à*My count shows you exceeded your 500 word count by 13 words, I’ll take 1/3marks for each word i.e roughly 4marks. The piece is a humorous one in total which I liked the twist on while the grammar, and use of wording throughout was very well indeed. I enjoyed the read entirely and would have read more. However it did lack meaning in relation to a cover note slightly and went off the topic in some sense. I can’t attack the piece much though to be honest. Thus, I’ll give this a score of *15/20*

*Wildcard **à*Like Matthatters piece, it was meant to be a humorous attack on Cover Notes, but the difference is that yours gets boring and dull after reading the first few lines and overall it’s not written particularly well, while there are some grammar issues as well…Overall, taking 4 marks for each…I’ll reward you with *8/20*

*Speakerphone2 **à*I presume that the lack of grammar here is deliberate, I find it annoying and docking you 25% of marks for that…I hate it. Plus your use of wording is particularly bad as well…which didn’t help the deliberate no grammar. The issue isn’t really tackled in a great sense either. I can see it’s meant to be funny as well…but like Wildcard, it completely bored me and nothing interesting happened in this piece at all.

20 – { 25% + 3 + 3 + 3} è 6/20

*Eggo **à*I half liked this piece…it’s written well, however I found the Victoria storyline to be a little frustrating as it dominated the cover note, I just think a few lines could have dealt with this issue and you could have focussed on a more serious/humorous cover note comment. As I half liked it, I’ll give it *N/A - Judge*

*Tiamat10 **à*Great piece, found little wrong with it…*15/20*

Good, little mistake, a nice short humorous piece…I think you could have wrote more and some of the wording could have been improved in areas while the Cambridge Courses could have been a lot more humorous I thought. Good though! 

*AlittlePlum->*"I found this to be another humorous take on this Cover Note very original. However, I didn't particularly like the Courses mentoned and thought they could have been significantly improved. It was funny throughout however the grammar and vocabulary and flow of wording wasn't particularly overhwelming, just average and monotonous. I'll give this 9/20

*Geisha **à*Not much to say unfortunately. It was a well written piece, had the serious of a cover note with tints of humour throughout which were good but I’ve read better tonight. It’s just not great and I can see you’re not a great writer. Anyway, while it’s good, for boredom and lack of humour ( as you meant for this to be )…I’m struggling to concoct a figure here, somewhere around the *9/20 *seems appropriate I believe.

*2.0 **à*I don’t particularly like the double-spacing and that part of presentation was poor so I dock you 2 marks there. As a piece, like before, it appeals to both the serious/humorous sides without being too much on either side. The wording overall was average so I dock you 2 marks for that…as it’s slightly boring after some time, I dock you 3 marks…I also found many words clashed and made reading this piece particularly uncomfortable, it may be personal opinion, but that is what every Judge is in essence.

Thus in total, I rank this at *9/20*


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## Tiamat

Wow, that was most definitely a bumpy ride.  Still, we survived, so congrats to Geisha!  Interestingly, this is the first time I've placed in an LM--and with one of the worst scores I've gotten, too!  But it was good fun, so thanks much to all you judges.


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## Chaeronia

Tiamat10 said:


> Wow, that was most definitely a bumpy ride.  Still, we survived, so congrats to Geisha!  *Interestingly, this is the first time I've placed in an LM--and with one of the worst scores I've gotten, too!*  But it was good fun, so thanks much to all you judges.



Arf!  Says a lot about the competition


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## Tiamat

Nah, it says more about the vast array of differing opinions in the world than anything.


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## Sam

Seriously - zero! A score of zero for Cheronia? That's a slight bit harsh, don't you think? 

Congratulations to Geisha, Tiamat, and Wildcard.


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## Chaeronia

Sam Winchester said:


> Seriously - zero! A score of zero for Cheronia? That's a slight bit harsh, don't you think?
> 
> Congratulations to Geisha, Tiamat, and Wildcard.



I'm quite proud of my zero!  ;-)


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## Wildcard

> Triquediqual


Who exactly is this person? The name doesn't ring any bells.

Thanks to all the judges  and congrats Geisha and Tia. Thanks Sam.


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## geisha

Wow! Guess I should have skipped the nap and popped over here instead! 

Thank you so much! I was hoping to place this time around, but didn't expect to win. I very much appreciate how much people seemed to enjoy it, with only a 9/20 exception. 

Congratulations to Wildcard and Tiamat as well. Not a slew of entries, but some good competition. 

Thanks to eggo too for such a fun prompt. Most fun I had writing something in a while.


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## SacredCircle

Congrats Geisha! I had blast reading these. I do apologize for the short and repetitive comments. I'll try to be a little more in depth next time around.


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## Triquediqual

Wildcard said:


> Who exactly is this person? The name doesn't ring any bells.



Hi Wildcard,

Who am I? I'll give a brief introduction so. The name is Triquediqual. I've been a member here for just over a year now. I mainly publish and critique heavily the poetry on this site, much to the dismay of most, but that's because the quality is very poor and I provide beneficial and contructive advice as well as putdowns on what shouldn't be done.

Occasionally, I critique Short Stories, however Poetry is my forté, and at Eighteen years of age, I've been complemented greatly to my skill in the writing arena. I'm still learning, as is everyone who writes, but I basically know what's shit and what's not.

I'm studying Second Year Pharmacy at the moment, and have a first class honours score in Medicinal Chemistry and will be pursuing a Ph.D in this area after my degree. In languages, I'm pursuing fluency in the arena of Spanish, Italian, and French, and achieved the highest mark in my Secondary school for over a decade.


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## geisha

SacredCircle said:


> Congrats Geisha! I had blast reading these. I do apologize for the short and repetitive comments. I'll try to be a little more in depth next time around.



Thank you SacredCircle. Don't see anything wrong with your comments really, especially when you were trying to get them in quickly. I really appreciate the judges taking time to score. Very kind of all of you.


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## Loulou

Congrats Geisha, Tiamat and Wildcard, well deserved.  I liked this prompt Eggo, I just didn't get chance, and saw it very last minute.

Triquediqaul,

Giving any story zero is pretty low.  Only someone with incredibly low self-esteem would do such a thing.  No piece is worthy of a zero, for the very fact that someone sat down and endeavoured to have a go.  It happens that the piece you gave a zero to is worth much more.  I'm surprised you were selected as a judge.

Oh, and it's 'put-downs' and 'constructive' and you don't need a capital for eighteen, in case you wanted to turn your expert eye on your own words.  The second highest grade in a decade?  You must have shagged every teacher that walked the halls.


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## edropus

The scoring here definitely makes me hesitant to ever enter one of these again.  I agree 100% with Lou up there.  If I had any weight anywhere I'd suggest Triq's scores be thrown out.  I hope some real thought is put into selecting judges in the future.

Sorry if that comes off as harsh; it's just a disappointing event in what's normally the most enjoyable activity on this site.


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## Remedy

Congratulations to everyone. I didn't enter, of course, but I enjoyed reading your cover letters. Having gone over a couple dozen real cover letters (the place I work at is hiring), I have to say, yours were a lot more fun. 



Loulou said:


> Oh, and it's 'put-downs' and 'constructive' and you don't need a capital for eighteen, in case you wanted to turn your expert eye on your own words.


 
Don't forget complimented.  

In any case, Triquediqual - your own grammar is awful, which is one of those things you generally want to consider when you're writing anything outside of poetry, at least if you plan on bragging about yourself. Furthermore, your entire post reeked of insecurity - the whole I'm-so-great thing sounded highly defensive (and made up, to be honest) when you had nothing to defend (yet). However, it did make me laugh. 

I do sincerely hope you don't judge again.


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## Hawke

Guys, these challenges are for fun. There are no prizes for the winners and no paddlings behind the barn for those who didn't score as high. It's an exercise, one I hope everyone who entered gets something out of. In all fairness, if it weren't for those who volunteered to judge, we wouldn't have a competition at all. So agree or disagree, but remember that the challenges are still a crapshoot and it is only individual opinion. 

Gently, people, gently. 

I thank all who entered and those who judged.


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## Loulou

Hawke said:


> ...no paddlings behind the barn for those who didn't score as high.


 
Take away our incentive why don't you, Hawke?


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## Tiamat

> I basically know what's shit and what's not.


You...um...er...I...  Oh, never mind.  Fun challenge all around.  Many of the entries and some of the judges are particularly entertaining.

I'll go crawl back under my rock now.


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## Wildcard

Loulou said:


> I'm surprised you were selected as a judge.



You and me both Lou...you and me both.


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## SacredCircle

edropus said:


> The scoring here definitely makes me hesitant to ever enter one of these again.  I agree 100% with Lou up there.  If I had any weight anywhere I'd suggest Triq's scores be thrown out.  I hope some real thought is put into selecting judges in the future.
> 
> Sorry if that comes off as harsh; it's just a disappointing event in what's normally the most enjoyable activity on this site.



 That comment definitely make me hesitant to judge. . .


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## Hawke

Sorry, but I'm not throwing any scores out. Like submitting to a publisher, agree or not, challenges are a crap shoot and open to personal opinion. I won't intimidate or scare potential judges into thinking I'll remove their scores if I don't agree with them or they don't stack up to the other judges scores - where's the fairness in that? 

First and foremost the LM challenges are writing exercises. The entrants wrote. They enjoyed writing them... or at least I hope they did. They tried something different and maybe it'll spark an idea for a future work.


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## Brightside

Hey, congrates to the winners!! Though i found it really hard to score - and it was a learning experience for me. Did enjoy it though - i've even began reading some articles to improve my critical eye...

And who scores 0... where the spirit of the LM here???? Harsh i can understand, but down right nasty i can not.

There's a lesson here!

Quite what it is though...!! I'm not as clever as others...

Thanks all, enjoyed my first, if a little shaky, attempt at judging.

B.


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## edropus

Hawke said:


> *...*Do you not even know what a Cover Note is... the English quality is that of an average 14 year old schoolboy... a boring and lacklustre piece with no originality whatsoever... Absolutely awful and deserving of Negative Scoring...



_(Note:  The quote is from Hawke, but was not written by Hawke)_

Just read that over.  All I'm saying is that this is more in the line of a personal attack then any kind of judging or critique.  I'm not saying 'Pull his scores', I'm just saying that if it was my decision I would.  Even in 'Critique and Advice' there are unofficial rules about constructive and destructive criticism.  There's also just common courtesy and good manners.  I agree that nothing should be done to discourage judges; but what about discouraging writers when they can expect to just be insulted?


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## Wildcard

Very well said Ed


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## Hawke

> _(Note: The quote is from Hawke, but was not written by Hawke)_


 
You quoted me when I didn't say it? *grin*

Okay, the bottom line is though I don't agree with all the comments from every judge on every work in every challenge (never have and never will, to be honest - no one can), I just can't go over scores and comments and decide which to post up on a challenge (unless they're outright threats or flames) and which to not. It's unethical and it's wrong. Plus, like someone recently told me, "If you start changing judges scores, then what would be the point of judges?"

All I know is I'm the second best judge anyone's ever seen... all the rest are tied for first.


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## Raging_Hopeful

Hawke you're so nice and sweet  That's why we love you.

But sorry, I'll have to back up everyone else up on their opinions. This round came off as rude, vindictive, and not in the spirit of LM at all. Sure, it's an exercise but its not supposed to be an exercise in ego or flexing power over those you feel you are "superior" to in writing. Overall I'm glad I didn't enter and am shocked at the outcome of scores. Hardly any helpful critique at all and if you offer to be a judge, you should really be ready to take the time to judge fairly, rather than to be judgemental. I believe there is a big difference there, maybe not in definition, but in intention. 

Congrats to the winners and hey, congrats to everyone who took the time to enter! It was a difficult prompt (I personally couldn't come up with anything to submit) and Loulou, as usual, I admire your spunk in the name of fairness.

Cheers,
Linz


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## Triquediqual

First of all, everhing I wrote in my bio was 100% true to those who thought I was lying.

Second, I know my grammar isn't 100% perfect and I'm liable to mistakes, as a judge in a competition, I can spot some and judge based on the best, so if I see a small mistake, this can differ two really good pieces.

Third, I liked the persons piece (to a certain extent) which I rated at 0/20 but I had no choice to because it didn't answer the question and no attempt seemed to have been made, if the question was "A Job Experience", I would have rated it 12/20. I stand by my comments 10%. I don't wish to discourage people from writing, sometimes, this heavy critique is needed to determine people to improve, which in the past, for the majority, it has indeed. I got the same when I started writing seriously, I took it, grew on it and vowed never to get a reaction like that again. I'd like for others to do the same even if they don't see it as constructive. Eg. Think of the Army, tough reactions, but it does make you want to improve ( assuming you want to be there ).

I don't claim to be a writing expert, very few on this site are and I wouldn't be as good as them nor will be for a few years or maybe never, I don't know. But based on my opinion, I gave marks as I felt were needed or not needed. I gave tiamat 18/20, so I do appreciate good pieces.

Hope that clears some things up.

Triq


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## Sam

> I gave tiamat 18/20, so I do appreciate good pieces.


Might want to go back and check that. You gave Tiamat 15.

Listen, no matter how bad a piece is, it doesn't deserve a zero. The lowest it deserves is a four or five, simply because the person took the time and effort to post. That's what I had a problem with. Also, this is a for-fun challenge, not a life or death scenario. You could have been more tactful, is all.


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## Chaeronia

As the esteemed writer of the zero-piece - the champion of nought no less! - I certainly wouldn't wish any scores to be revoked.  This section of the site is clearly about opinion and any hack worth their font should be able to cope with a bit of sledging.  

  I knew my piece in particular was some way wide of the brief and thus expected low scores.  But, as Hawke mentioned, LM is a device for experimentation and that is how I used it.  I tried to portray the notion of a loanshark who knows little of the prerequisites for writing a covering letter, juxtaposing his simple outlook on his work (hence the short sentences and the speech-like narrative) with the formal task of writing a job application for a Debt Manager.  Little comments such as “I like to be innovative and challenge existing systems” were thrown in to off-set the otherwise less structured tone of the letter (and for a bit of humour, which clearly failed miserably!), but of course I still understand my piece failed to meet the prompt.  

I think Triq's comments were, in equal measure, unnecessary, badly worded, and just plain wrong, but that's his take, his view, and he's entitled to it.  I'll certainly not be holding grudges over an experimental piece of flash fiction.

Roll on the next LM!


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## Brightside

Raging_Hopeful said:


> Hawke you're so nice and sweet  That's why we love you.
> 
> But sorry, I'll have to back up everyone else up on their opinions. This round came off as rude, vindictive, and not in the spirit of LM at all. Sure, it's an exercise but its not supposed to be an exercise in ego or flexing power over those you feel you are "superior" to in writing. Overall I'm glad I didn't enter and am shocked at the outcome of scores. Hardly any helpful critique at all and if you offer to be a judge, you should really be ready to take the time to judge fairly, rather than to be judgemental. I believe there is a big difference there, maybe not in definition, but in intention.
> 
> Congrats to the winners and hey, congrats to everyone who took the time to enter! It was a difficult prompt (I personally couldn't come up with anything to submit) and Loulou, as usual, I admire your spunk in the name of fairness.
> 
> Cheers,
> Linz




Hey,

I agree that there were some harsh comments made in judging, but i think that's an unfair comment on labelling the judges. It was my first attempt, and at least i (and the other judges here) took time to judge. And, yes, some of us are not the best at critiquing work, but, again, at least we tried.

You've kinda put me off this actually, which is annoying as i really enjoy the LM


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## Sam

Brightside, I think Linz was talking about Triquediqual. I apologise if I'm wrong. 

For the record, the judging is always slightly disparate. Not everyone has the same tastes, after all. However, I do believe that a score of zero is a lot more than disparate. It's rude, if I may say so.


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## Shawn

Chaeronia said:


> Roll on the next LM!



I really enjoyed your piece. It certainly did not deserve a 0.

But I would like to drive home the point of checking grammar thoroughly. There's a lot of easy mistakes to throw off the score. You would have definitely been an 18 or 19 (in my books) had it been flawless.

What I really looked for in that 20 that I finally found in geisha's was that mature, developed writing style that brings the author's ideas into the piece in a way that is both sophisticated and easily understood. Complex characterization in the narrator also gives a good boost to the score.

But I can't speak for the other judges. 

Congratulations to the contestants. Good job.


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## Brightside

Sam Winchester said:


> Brightside, I think Linz was talking about Triquediqual. I apologise if I'm wrong.
> 
> For the record, the judging is always slightly disparate. Not everyone has the same tastes, after all. However, I do believe that a score of zero is a lot more than disparate. It's rude, if I may say so.




I completey agree Sam, as i mentioned earlier. Raging's comments felt like it was pointed at all of us is all. This was a first attempt at judging for me, and found it hard to give all-round crit in a few words, so went on my first impressions. 

I gave 8 or 9 for Chaeronia's story and i thought i was being REALLY harsh... (but for the theme, was about right) The story in no way deserved such a low score as 0. As Chaeronia has stated, they were going for a different take on it, and why not!? That's what LM is about, trying something out, enjoying the challenge, and seeing what others think, isn't it?

Anyway, I just hope Raging wasn't talking about everyone, is all. I really didn't intend on annoying anyone!!!!:razz:


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## Chris Miller

I didn't play this time, but it's interesting to read as an outsider.  One thing I've noticed is that the judges who give the most wildly diverse scores, like a 0 here and a 15 there have the most sway over the outcome, and tend also to seem the least competent at critiquing. I think I'd be tempted to cut the highest and lowest score for each story and use the rest.  Like they do in gymnastics, to keep the Russians from cheating. Not that it would've made much difference here.  The cream floats to the top.


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## Wildcard

So how does this whole judging thing work? Is it like a random selection process? I say this because for a judge that claims he is critiquing for the betterment of the writer, Triq's grammar (as was seen twice with those posts up there) more or less, sucks.

So if his grammar sucks, how could he aptly critique anything? Let alone give someone zero?

I'd go ahead and throw in the old "not to sound harsh" line...but fuck it.

Lou pretty much hit the nail on the head. As did edropus. So I don't think I need to go down that road again.

My two cents.


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## SacredCircle

Let's put aside his poor grammar for a moment and look at Triq's post about why he did what he did. Does no one agree with him? I realize he went about it the wrong way, but he was trying to do the right thing. Maybe explaining to him how to critique with tact would be in order instead of post after post about how the judges are mean nasty people and not good enough to judge your work. This can and should be a learning experience on all sides.


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## alanmt

SacredCircle said:


> Let's put aside his poor grammar for a moment and look at Triq's post about why he did what he did. Does no one agree with him? I realize he went about it the wrong way, but he was trying to do the right thing. Maybe explaining to him how to critique with tact would be in order instead of post after post about how the judges are mean nasty people and not good enough to judge your work. This can and should be a learning experience on all sides.


 
I agree. I wasn't in the challenge, so I didn't feel the sting. But hey, let this be a learning experience for all, so we all can improve both as writers and as judges. It seems to me from reading triq's explanation that his/her heart was in the right place, even if the execution was a little rough.

When I look at the harshness of the judging on, say, project runway, I think we all can toughen up, although I must say that when I eventually judge I wll probably try to be a bit more tactful. Chaeronia handled the issue with grace and good sport.

Let's all relax.

And I know I get carried away on minor issues in the debate forums sometimes, but do as I say, not as I do!


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## ohdear

Congratulations to the winners.
Thanks for a good prompt.

I very much appreciate the efforts of the judges. It is a hard thing to do. I am an accredited public speaking critic and it never gets easier to give a good critique. We are taught to sandwich it up. Encouraging remark, constructive remark, encouraging remark. That isnt always easy.

I can fully understand why an 18 year old would not understand the reason that Monica would sign off as unfaithfully yours. Just goes to show that humour is lost if you dont have the right audience. A good lesson in itself.

I very much enjoyed the writing exercise. I also enjoyed reading all the entries. Bravo to all who participated. I am looking forward to the next challenge also.

I very much appreciate that every one here, moderators, mentors, judges, administrators are all volenteers. What a generous gift you offer us with all that you do. This is a good quality site that offers great variety. We are very blessed to have the opportunity to have regular challenges such as this to keep the grey matter stimulated. It is all learning, even as a spectator.

Thank you to all who helped make this happen.


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## Tiamat

ohdear said:


> Congratulations to the winners.
> Thanks for a good prompt.
> 
> I very much appreciate the efforts of the judges. It is a hard thing to do. I am an accredited public speaking critic and it never gets easier to give a good critique. We are taught to sandwich it up. Encouraging remark, constructive remark, encouraging remark. That isnt always easy.
> 
> I can fully understand why an 18 year old would not understand the reason that Monica would sign off as unfaithfully yours. Just goes to show that humour is lost if you dont have the right audience. A good lesson in itself.
> 
> I very much enjoyed the writing exercise. I also enjoyed reading all the entries. Bravo to all who participated. I am looking forward to the next challenge also.
> 
> I very much appreciate that every one here, moderators, mentors, judges, administrators are all volenteers. What a generous gift you offer us with all that you do. This is a good quality site that offers great variety. We are very blessed to have the opportunity to have regular challenges such as this to keep the grey matter stimulated. It is all learning, even as a spectator.
> 
> Thank you to all who helped make this happen.


You get a medal.  Just because.

...Well, actually I don't have a medal.  Here, you get a buck-toothed bunny rabbit.  :albino:  I know you've always wanted one.


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## Triquediqual

Just some comments to throw in:

* When I write comments very quickly on this site, ( as I write extremely quickly anyway ) I will make some very bad grammar mistakes all the time, and sometimes my spelling will be wrong, but I don't mind. I do mind, however, when I write mistakes in my own work which I try to be exact on. So please don't relate my comments on this site with my actual ability to see it in other peoples work.

* Like I said, had the topic been "On-Topic" for that girls work, I would have rated it 9. I appreciate she did it and appreciate the time she put into it, and it wasn't the worst in the world. But for a competition, I believe to say one person gets a 9, and equally another who was on-topic get a 9, then I don't think it's fair to give it equally, even if the score was 2/20. So I justify my reason for the purposes of the competition to give her score a zero, only for that reason.

* I completely stand by every comment I made about those peoples work. You have to take tough criticism, I had to. Even though it seems like it's not beneficial however "rude" people may believe it to be, then tough luck, it works if people let it work. (Above, Apologies for saying 18, it was 15, but still, a great piece  ).

* I'll Judge in the future, and refuse to change my critiquing style for anyone at all, as I personally believe that:

- If anyone complies with the topic, then that's ok.
- Doesn't have bad grammar mistakes.
- Interesting, original, and Doesn't stray from a topic with a non-important piece.
- Articulation appropriate with the topic, good use of wording and no clashing or awkward or misused wording.

If anyone creates a topic piece that complies with all of these, it would get above 15/20 easily. So take that as a guide for the next time I Judge, and I'm applying for next Months as well, if not, then the Month afterwards. See what Hawke says.

*


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## Wildcard

Triquediqual said:


> So take that as a guide for the next time I Judge, and I'm applying for next Months as well, if not, then the Month afterwards. See what Hawke says.



There's something to keep you up at night.


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## Chaeronia

Triquediqual said:


> Just some comments to throw in:
> 
> * When I write comments very quickly on this site, ( as I write extremely quickly anyway ) I will make some very bad grammar mistakes all the time, and sometimes my spelling will be wrong, but I don't mind.* I do mind, however, when I write mistakes in my own work which I try to be exact on.* So please don't relate my comments on this site with my actual ability to see it in other peoples work.
> 
> *



In which case I do hope your 'own work' doesn't include the blog that you promote in your signature, because that is equally devoid of grammatical ability.


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## Triquediqual

No, I don't consider that Blog "Work", I consider work either  Short Stories or Poetry that I write.


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## Sam

Triquediqual said:


> No, I don't consider that Blog "Work", I consider work either  Short Stories or Poetry that I write.



No matter what I write, I always strive to get it grammatically correct. It's not about whether it's only for a blog or a writing site, it's about having pride in your work.


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## Triquediqual

Just because you think that, doesn't mean everyone else does. I don't do that, maybe I should, but I dont.


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## Sam

Triqeudiqual said:
			
		

> maybe I should



There's your answer.


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## SacredCircle

Before I joined up here I never took the time to edit anything I wrote unless I was planning on using it for work or submit it somewhere. Now I check everything and it has everything to do with someone like Sam a few years back giving me a hard time. At the time I thought the guy was a pompous asshole. But I realized after a few posts that he was actually trying to help me become a better writer. I have noticed a huge improvement on spelling because of this. I blamed spell check, but really it was me. I was just being lazy.
I still mess up of course! Especially when I am trying to quickly post something during work.


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## eggo

First off,

Hats off to Chaeronia. A good sport.

I liked the stories overall and pushing the envelope is not a bad thing. You take a chance with the fuzzy grey area sometimes, but that's really where some of the best and the creative things happen.

I was thinking of exactly what Chris said. Throw out the low and the high. It's the logical thing to do.

But I thought about it some more and wondered, sometimes we only have three or four judges. That won't work.

Perhaps we could keep an element of it though, what about just the lowest score? This isn't the first time this has come up and it might solve it.

I dunno, some more thought is required.

 I want to congratulate all the winners, time to put this one down and head on to the next.


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## ohdear

Tiamat10 said:


> You get a medal. Just because.
> 
> ...Well, actually I don't have a medal. Here, you get a buck-toothed bunny rabbit. :albino: I know you've always wanted one.


 
Awwww, thanks Tiamat 10, you know me so well. I cant do anything with a medal, but a buck tooth bunny rabbit on the other hand... the mind boggles. *wicked grin*

Thanks for the smile.


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## The Backward OX

eggo said:


> I was thinking of exactly what Chris said. Throw out the low and the high. It's the logical thing to do.
> 
> But I thought about it some more and wondered, sometimes we only have three or four judges. That won't work.
> 
> Perhaps we could keep an element of it though, what about just the lowest score? This isn't the first time this has come up and it might solve it.
> 
> I dunno, some more thought is required.


This is at the one time probably too simplistic and too unworkable. But it _is_ the answer:

_Judges should be drawn only from amongst those who have already proved their skill at judging._


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## Remedy

The Backward OX said:


> This is at the one time probably too simplistic and too unworkable. But it _is_ the answer:
> 
> _Judges should be drawn only from amongst those who have already proved their skill at judging._


 
I don't know if that's necessarily the best way to do it though. It seems to me that shutting it off from newcomers would take away some of the spirit of these challenges. 

That said, I do think that perhaps some should not be chosen again. I can understand if only one or two people complain, but when half a dozen or so do, it's indicative of a problem. It's even more problematic if the judge in question demonstrates no sign of change and/or remorse. It's not only this time that seems to be a problem; last time, there were some complaints/comments about the lack of comments made by a judge. Obviously, the reaction is more negative here, and I would say it is with good reason. It seems to me that the protests of a group should be considered. I'm worried that if the "judge" in question for this round is allowed to judge again, people will be more hesitant to enter. 

It's all just my opinion though.


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## SacredCircle

This is my first LM since I have been back so I am not sure how things have been in the past year or so, but it sure seems to be a sore spot with people. Maybe instead of saying that the judges need to be selected or prove themselves, there should be stricter criteria for judging. And if those points are not met then the judge should be counseled on how to do better.


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## Tiamat

Hmm... I don't agree with Ox that only people who have passed some sort of test and proved themselves worthy should be judges.  That can get awfully complicated for poor Hawke who's always got so much to do.  And it takes away some of the fun from the LM and I would hate to see that happen because this is my favorite part of this forum.

Chris's suggestion to toss out the lowest and highest _could_ work, provided we have more than four judges and we often don't.  Tossing out the lowest alone could work as well.  In fact, I'm starting to really like that suggestion because in the last two LM's I've gotten all consistent scores and then one that's freakishly low.  And I know I'm not the only one, either.

Ultimately it's up to Hawke though.


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## ohdear

Judging is a difficult task at the best of times.

I really appreciated the comments cause then at least you know what the judge saw in your submission that they liked or disliked.

the judging system that we used for public speaking was an interesting one.
It kind of does what you guys are saying, but in a different way.

Every Judge Ranks their scores, so no matter what the score out of twenty, if you have ten contestants, then each is ranked, first, second, third, etc...

Then, you place the ranking in a grid and add up what score they get.

the grid may look like this.
                           J1        J2    J3    
Submission One       1          2     1  =4
Submission Two       2          1     3  =6
Submission Three     3           3    2  =8


This does not leave such big gaps. It works for public speaking anyways and that can be just as subjective. The judes score out of 100 points, but it is only their rankings that are used.

Anyhow, we are all learning just by having this discussion, so in my mind there will be more good that comes from this experience than anything else.

I must say, it would take some doing for me to be brave enough to volenteer to be a judge. Not because of the fall out. Just because I do not feel my skills are up to the task of critiquing other peoples work to that degree. I salute anyone who is willing to put it out there. It takes a great deal of courage to show the results in the transparent way it is done here. Most judges have the benifit of anominity, in that the group makes the call, the individual scores are not revealed. A shared responsibility if you will.


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## geisha

I've hesitated saying anything, because I know I'm new to this experience. However, I was under the impression that this was more about fun than getting truly useful critiques. It seems that we're asking for more credible critique in LM than we even expect in the writer's workshop. Each time I've seen the results of this competition, there are about 3/5 judges that try their best and are reasonable. I think that ratio is as good, or better, than what people get under other posts most times. 

Ultimately, I don't believe this to be a competition where a writer's credibility is at stake, nor the judges. I personally use it to inspire and to push me to finish something. I would suggest if further workshopping is desired, that it can simply be posted elsewhere after the competition. 

Hope that doesn't offend anyone - just my two cents. I'll shut up now.


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## Foxee

The current system of judging works very well. The LM is a good way to push the participants to write and it is a valuable exercise for each judge.

There are judging guidelines so that it is not a popularity contest and so that less experienced writers will know what to look for.

There is no need to change it.


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## Raging_Hopeful

Teach me to go camping for three days!

Well, just to address everyone's concerns... I'm a little over it but upon first review, I can't deny that I was extremely miffed at the manner in which pieces were judged. There's nothing wrong with being "tough" but....



> *Do you not even know what a Cover Note is*





> *Absolutely awful and deserving of Negative Scoring* however the rules show it was to be between 0-20 so for not answering the question





> but the difference is *that yours gets boring and dull after reading the first few lines* and overall it’s not written particularly well,


 
Everyone is entitled to their opinions. But when someone seems to be taking a stab at being the "Simon Cowell" of the LM is just lame. 

That being said, I don't think this should lead an outcry for the rules to be changed as most people play very well within the context... I just thought it was a damn shame someone couldn't pull their keyboard out of their ass long enough to pause their condescending attitude and realize that this is an exercise and that comments like that are well.... exceedingly unhelpful. 

BUT ANYWAYS. Congrats to the winners and good sports  I feel much better about the issue now and I hope, Triq, that you will use this opportunity to contemplate "how you come across" and what not. Hell, I hope you'll take another stab at judging and see how it goes! 

Yes. Relax. A weekend in the woods and swimming in glacier water does wonders for ones temper and appetite for peace.

Cheers,
Linz


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## Wildcard

> I do mind, however, when I write mistakes in my own work which I try to be exact on. So please don't relate my comments on this site with my actual ability to see it in other peoples work.



And where exactly would one find this "work"?


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## The Backward OX

Well, I don't know much but I do know I have no time for most eighteen-year-olds. 

This is part of what I meant earlier about judges being selected. Have some criteria they must meet. Maturity first and foremost. 

_Sheesh._


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## Remedy

Unfortunately though, age does not equal maturity. I wish it did. 

For example, I got an email today from a middle-aged woman, who in response to my question, pretty much threw a virtual fit, managing to make her words look like they were on the floor, kicking and screaming. And while that was interesting, it wasn't pretty. Nor did it do anything. 

So, age does not equal maturity.


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## Brightside

I think we are forgetting what the LM is all about. It is NOT a professional, winner takes all, ultra serious, everything must be perfect, even the judges, competition. It’s about a community of writers getting together to have some fun and try to finish a few short stories.

Personally, I like the fact that anyone, be it an 18 year old, or an 80 year old, can be a judge and comment and score my entries. That’s a good thing. It’s about personal point of view, nothing else, I think. We are a community of writers here, and the LM should NOT be about perfection, but about being as good as we can be, be it a entrant or judge – no matter where we are in our writing life, or experience. The LM is good because it is a bit random and taken in a good sprit, and its something all forum members can be a part of. It’s not about professional critique, or writing the best 500 words humankind hath ever written!

99% of the forum members will understand the idea and take it for what it is, 1% will every now and then take it a bit far, like we have seen here, but let’s hope they learn from it, and realise what we are actually doing.

I don’t agree with some of the scores and comments from this LM, but I wholeheartedly disagree about changing or limiting anything – especially judges. 

Let’s join in with the spirit of the LM and look forwards to the next one, I say. Let’s leave it as it is and leave our egos at the door.

Maybe our next LM prompt should be 500 words about what the LM should be! OR what it is, OR what kind of judges we should have…(I’m joking)

Rant over…


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