# My Editor Wanted to Check-In



## Winston (Dec 4, 2011)

First-off:  Yes, I know I'm an idiot for paying someone to read and edit my work.  In one on my first posts here, I responded to a thread debating the utility of using an editor.  It seems a writer must be really bad, have no friends and / or be just plain stupid to hire an editor.  Since I qualify on all points, I ask your forgiveness and understanding.

That aside, it seemed like the guy who took my money did seem to have a genuine interest in what I was doing with my manuscript.  I thought I'd share my response to him with you all.  If you are in a spinning abyss of hopeless torment with no future, relax in the knowledge that I'm already there ahead of you.  I'll see you at the bottom.  

Enjoy!




Hi R******.

Is this morbid curiosity, or are you just following up on clients?  Regardless, you've been upfront and fair with me.  The least I can do is return the favor.  Even if it means being honest with both of us.

M***** wrote that you wanted to know if I was marketing my manuscript.  Over the last six months or so I've sent out dozens of queries to agents.  The best responses to date have been impersonal form rejections where they spell my name right.  Most have been the generic "Dear Writer" responses.  Each one felt like a spade of dirt thrown on my dead effort.  I haven't sent a query in almost two months now.  I don't take it personal, yet the pain of rejection has put me into a creative paralysis.  I've also stopped sending queries because I'm a realist.  I knew I was too short to play in the NBA.  I'm not smart enough to work for NASA.  Now I know I can't write.

If you are checking in with me because you really do care, that puts you in a very, very small group.  I printed out the complete manuscript many months ago for my wife to read.  I asked her a few times how far she had read.  It turned out not far... not far at all.  Eventually, I stopped asking.  Dittos with my teen-aged daughter.  
I can understand that, even if it is hurtful.  If I had, in fact, written the most turgid piece of banal tripe to ever disgrace twenty-four pound printer stock, I would hope that my own family would lie to me, at least to spare my feelings.  No.
Worse?  I told them I was working on a sequel.  They _never_ ask me how it's going, offer encouragement.  Nothing.  I have part of Monday (my day off) that I normally have had time to write.  They leave me dirty dishes, laundry and assorted chores to fill-up my day.  They don't leave me time.  That doesn't matter now anyway.  In the last two months I've written a grand total of twelve pages.  I know my place now.  It is not in front of the Word program.

Have I ever told you what I do for a living?  Of course not.  It's f***ing embarrassing.  
I (in_sert menial job here)_.
What agent in their right mind will ever take me seriously?  My own family doesn't.  I must have been brainwashed by watching too many made-for tv movies.  You know the ones.  Some blue collar schlub works hard, keeps trying, and eventually breaks into some elite group.  People cheer.  Right.
I live in the real world.  No cheering here. It's real quiet.  So quiet, you can hear a dream die.   

Thanks for taking the time to check in with me.  I apologize that I won't be sending you any of my "writing".  It seems people are looking for stories written by writers, not (i_nsert menial job here)_.  I suppose that makes sense.  I hope you understand.
Please don't hesitate to keep sending me those cute e-mails.  I can use a laugh, on occasion.  

Thanks again for your help and support.  Take care.

Me


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## Tiamat (Dec 4, 2011)

Well... damn.

My first inclination to reading this is to say, "Aw, poor guy."  My second, more characteristic inclination is to smack you and tell you to knock it off.  I can't think of a single published writer who hasn't been rejected through one, two, three, or even more novels than that.  I'm still rounding up rejections to my second attempt, and if that's all I get out of it, I'll go ahead with the third and fourth and fifth attempts.

Mind you, I don't know how many times you've been through the query/rejection process, but regardless of what that number is, I say you give up too easily.  Your family doesn't care?  Big deal, neither does mine.  My boyfriend's been stuck on Chapter 7 of my novel for over six months.  His sister left off at Chapter 2.  Does it mean my book is destined for the gallows?  Well, maybe, but I'd rather see the damn thing through before I make that call.  And even if it is garbage, if at first you don't succeed...

So stop whining, and if you really want to write, then go f$#&ing write.  If the only reason you write at all is to get published and make truck loads of money, maybe you should take up something else.  There's always stamp collecting, after all.

Lastly, I don't think you're a damned fool for going to an editor.  Even the best of writers (with the best, most diligent friends) can't catch every mistake.  Having someone edit it is the _responsible_ thing to do, and it's indicative of a writer who takes his work seriously.  And don't forget about self-publishing.  If you really believe in your book, that route is always available.

If you really want to give up already, then do it.  If you can't handle rejection, you can't handle the publishing industry.  I just find it hard to sympathize with people who cry "I'm a failure" when an endeavor doesn't work out.  I have a folder in my inbox filled with over 300 rejections.  I have another folder with about 15 acceptances.  

You do the math.


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## Jon M (Dec 4, 2011)

A friend of the family was so interested in the novella I was working on that he'd ask me about it every time he saw me. Said he wanted to read it. So when I finished it I dutifully printed a hard copy and sent it to him. It's been more than two months, and I've seen him several times, and he's said nothing about it. And my family, the ones who say I'm a great writer, haven't read it either, or expressed any desire to.

That's just how it goes, Winston. Everyone's said it, but it's true nonetheless: writing is a lonely business. The number of people in your corner compared to the number rooting against you can seem staggering at times. 

Also, I don't think you're an idiot for paying for an editor's services, especially if going the self-publishing route. It shows that you care about the quality of your work. If / when I decide to actually try and get published (just having fun writing at the moment), I'd likely do the same. It's necessary to get that kind of objectivity if you're at all interested in turning out a quality product.


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## Kyle R (Dec 5, 2011)

I feel your pain. Rejection sucks.

But..

Self-pity sucks even more.

Many of today's successful writers endured similar experiences when trying to break into the market. The distinction is, they didn't give up. If you want to call it quits, that's okay. It's totally understandable. But don't act as if a great injustice has been done to you, or as the world has unfairly dealt you a bum hand. 

Stephen King's first novel was rejected. Completely.

So he tried again, wrote a new novel. Rejected. Resoundingly.

So he wrote another novel. Rejected. Utterly.

He wrote a FOURTH novel. Rejected. Humiliatingly.

He began to write a FIFTH novel. Halfway through he couldn't take it anymore and threw the damn thing in the trash. His wife discovered it and encouraged him to finish it. So he did. Rejected 41 times. Finally when all hope seemed lost, a publisher accepted it, his fifth novel after his first four were complete failures, for a meager allowance. It was called "Carrie", his literary debut, and went on to be a genre classic in literature and film.

Dick Wimmer's novel "Irish Wine" received 25 straight years of rejection letters before it was finally published. Allow me to repeat that. He continued to push his novel for *TWENTY FIVE YEARS*.

The list goes on. I could point out award winning novelists that were rejected for years by editors with form letters and even with comments that bordered on mocking and insulting, but still they stuck it out and ended up victorious in the end.

Keep your chin up and don't go dumping your angst and bitterness onto others, especially not your editor. This is the process that seperates the strong from the weak.

Best of luck!


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## Foxee (Dec 5, 2011)

Families aren't all that supportive and there's no rule that says they have to be. I'd love it if my husband would cook, do dishes, distract the kids, come home early, run errands, and otherwise help me clear time to write but that's not going to happen. I did NaNoWriMo last year so he knew the score already this year and his reaction was 'Are you insane?'.

Apparently, yes.

My family is supportive of my writing to the extent that they're not not-supportive and I think that's about the best I can hope for until I show that I can make it some kind of success (even then I'm pretty sure they'll say 'good job!' through a stifled yawn). If I'd suddenly decided to take up competitive apple-picking, wheat-weaving for fun and profit, or network sales opportunities there's nothing that dictates they have to help me make time for that or be as excited about it as I am.

Unfortunately the creative realm is one that most people figure they could hack if they just up and decide to do it one day. So you can spend years honing your writing skill, churn out and perfect reams of work and maybe eventually find success only to have some fathead who hasn't done any of it look you in the eye and say, "Oh you write? Yeah I was thinking of writing a book." 

Oh well.

I guess I can only echo a few of the others here. If you want to write then don't stop pursuing writing. Has the editor commented on your manuscript? It sounds like you paid him and he read it, right? So are there any major suggested changes?


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## Robdemanc (Dec 5, 2011)

After reading peoples posts I feel quite happy that my mother has read up to chapter 4 in my MS.  She stalled now though


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## Sunny (Dec 5, 2011)

*Rejection is part of the process. These are only some of the ones I found. 

*After 500 rejections spanning 4 years, the writer finally lands a publishing deal: Agatha Christie. Her book sales are now in excess of $2 billion. Only William Shakespeare has sold more.

Louis L'Amour received 200 rejections before Bantam took a chance on him. He is now their best ever selling Author with 330 million sales.

“_Too different from other juveniles on the market to warrant its selling_.” A rejection letter sent to Dr Seuss. 300 million sales and the 9th best-selling fiction Author of all time.

_“You have no business being a writer and should give up.” Zane Grey_ ignores the advice. His 90 books have now sold 250 million copies.

_The Tale of Peter Rabbit_ by Beatrix Potter was rejected so many times she had to initially self publish. To date: 80 million sales.

“_It is so badly written._” The Author tries Doubleday instead and his little book makes an impression. _The Da Vinci Code_ sells 80 million.

140 rejections stating “_Anthologies don’t sell”_ until _Chicken Soup for the Soul_ by Jack Canfield & Mark Victor Hansen sells 80 million copies.

“_We feel that we don’t know the central character well enough_.” The author does a rewrite and his protagonist becomes an icon for a generation as _The Catcher In The Rye_ sells 65 million.

5 Publishers reject L.M. Montgomery's debut novel. L.C. Page & Company does not, and _Anne of Green Gables_ sells 50 million.

“_Nobody will want to read a book about a seagull_.” Richard Bach's _Jonathan_ _Livingston Seagull_ went on to sell 44 million copies.

“_Undisciplined, rambling and thoroughly amateurish writer_.” But Jacqueline Susann refuses to give up and her book the _Valley of the Dolls_ sells 30 million.

Margaret Mitchell gets 38 rejections from publishers before finding one to publish her novel _Gone With The Wind_. Sold 30 million.

“_A long, dull novel about an artist._” Publisher rejects _Lust For Life_ by Irving Stone. 25 million sales

“_An irresponsible holiday story that will never sell_.” Rejection of _The Wind In The Willows_. 25 million sales.

His Publishers Doubleday rejects the first 100 pages. So the author Peter Benchley starts from scratch and _Jaws_ sells 20 million.

“_An absurd and uninteresting fantasy which was rubbish and dull_.” Rejection letter sent to William Golding for _The Lord Of The Flies_. 15 million sales.

After 20 rejection letters, WM Paul Young self publishes his novel _The Shack_. 15 million sales and a cultural phenomenon.

“_An endless nightmare. I think the verdict would be ‘Oh don’t read that horrid book_.” Publisher rejects the _War Of The Worlds_ by H.G. Wells

“_An absurd story as romance, melodrama or record of __New York__ high life._” Yet Publication see _The Great Gatsby_ become a best-selling classic.

“_Stick to teaching_.” Louisa May Alcott refuses to give up on her dream. _Little Women_ sells millions, and is still in print 140 years later. Unlike the name of the Publisher who told her to give up.

“_We are not interested in science fiction which deals with negative utopias. They do not sell_.” Stephen King's _Carrie_ sells 1 million in the first year alone.

“_The American public is not interested in China_.” Pearl S Buck's _The Good Earth_ becomes the best-selling US novel two years running in 1931/32, and wins The Pulitzer Prize in the process.

The estate of best-seller Jack London in San Francisco, the _House Of Happy Walls _has a collection of some of the 600 rejections he received before selling a single story.


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## Robdemanc (Dec 5, 2011)

Well Sunny some of those comments from publishers are shocking.   Is it not true that JK Rowling is the best selling author though?  More than Agetha Christie?

On a side note and not about a book: I remember back in 1983 a music magazine in Britain reviewed New Orders Blue Monday and said "After the first 20 minutes this starts to cause tense nervous headache".   It sold over a million copies on 12" single and is the best selling 12" of all time.


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## Sunny (Dec 5, 2011)

Yes.. I thought they were shocking too! 

_Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone_ by J.K Rowling spawns a series where the last four novels consecutively set records as the fastest-selling books in history, on both sides of the Atlantic, with combined sales of 400 million.

So I guess she still didn't reach the high numbers of Agatha Christie.

Isn't it strange how one person can tell you it's garbage and in no way should you persue to have it published, and then it takes just that one other person to see your work for what you think it is... and they make it a hit! 

When I start to feel down, thinking is this ever going to happen for me? I just remember to take a look at all of those names and all of the rejections they went through. If you can't handle being rejected hundreds of times, it's best not to start. It's just part of the process. When I get a rejection, I just smile. Thinking well, at least I'm still trying!


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## Robdemanc (Dec 5, 2011)

At least you are trying.  I have not sent anything yet so not had a rejection yet.  But I am preparing myself


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## j.w.olson (Dec 5, 2011)

The stats about the number of rejections famous authors  have gone through are reassuring to some extent, but then... I don't  want to get 500 rejections and STILL not get a novel published. Though I  suppose, especially today, self-publishing is always a viable option.  I'd be happier to have 20 copies of my book in existence than zero, if  it comes to that. And then it will be time to move on and get the next  one ready.

If you believe Mary Oliver, “To live in this world,  you must be able to do three things: to love what is mortal; to hold it  against your bones knowing your own life depends on it; and, when the  time comes to let it go, to let it go.” I believe that this applies  equally well to your novels. Yes, you love them and have spent countless  hours on them. But at some point you need to set them aside for (at  least temporary) obscurity, and move on to a new writing project.


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## Sunny (Dec 5, 2011)

Robdemanc,

Yes. I started with agents first. I've read that as a new author trying to get representation from an agent without having been previously published by a recognisable publishing firm, you have something like a 4% chance of getting an agent. It's all very hard work. But if you don't try, it will never happen, and you'll only have yourself to blame. If you want it bad enough, and you're willing to take advice from the people that know (sticking to what you believe to be right, of course) the in's and out's of it all. I think we can all make it. 

Being positive, believing in yourself even when it feels like no one else does. That will make the difference. Having that inner drive, that says , I don't care if you think it stinks, I'll find someone who loves it! 

Good luck when you start! It's actually exciting to hit "send" on that first query letter. :0)


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## themooresho (Dec 5, 2011)

Have you tried posting a sample for critique by the forum?  I would be interested in reading it.  Just because it's being rejected now doesn't mean that it's worthless.  It may be that it just needs some polishing.  Than again, it may be that you need to start over with something new.  Either way, if writing is what you feel you are meant to do, than my personal view is that it is your responsibility not to be shut down by a few rejection letters.  If you need to improve, then that's what you need to do, but you should definitely not give up.  Your story is something that the world needs to hear.


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## shadowwalker (Dec 5, 2011)

I always think of how many students get athletic scholarships - and how many make it to the Big Time. I figure I'll be able to deal with rejection letters. ositive:


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## Gamer_2k4 (Dec 5, 2011)

Tiamat10 said:


> My second, more characteristic inclination is to smack you and tell you to knock it off.  I can't think of a single published writer who hasn't been rejected through one, two, three, or even more novels than that.  I'm still rounding up rejections to my second attempt, and if that's all I get out of it, I'll go ahead with the third and fourth and fifth attempts.
> 
> Mind you, I don't know how many times you've been through the query/rejection process, but regardless of what that number is, I say you give up too easily.  Your family doesn't care?  Big deal, neither does mine.  My boyfriend's been stuck on Chapter 7 of my novel for over six months.  His sister left off at Chapter 2.  Does it mean my book is destined for the gallows?  Well, maybe, but I'd rather see the damn thing through before I make that call.  And even if it is garbage, if at first you don't succeed...
> 
> So stop whining, and if you really want to write, then go f$#&ing write.  If the only reason you write at all is to get published and make truck loads of money, maybe you should take up something else.  There's always stamp collecting, after all.



Part of me wants to agree with you, but another part of me has to tell you that *no one but the person Winston paid to read his book has shown any interest in it*.  Shouldn't that throw up some red flags?

I have no experience with publishing, and absolutely no actual credentials when it comes to writing.  I make no claims as to my level of skill.  However, I will say this: I've had two people (who I don't know and who have no reason to read my work other than pure interest) read entirely through the 23 chapters I've written of my own story.  That's 130,000 words.  I didn't ask for them to do it. I didn't offer any reading exchanges.  I simply put my story out there and said, "Feel free to take a look."  These two people each took a 130,000 word look.  In other words, if what you write is worth reading, people WILL read it.

Yes, rejection is a part of life and a part of being a writer.  I doubt anyone has written a manuscript and gotten it accepted just like that.  Still, like Winston said, he doesn't play basketball because he doesn't have the body for it.  He doesn't fly in space because he doesn't have the education for it.  And now, he doesn't write for the same sort of reason.  This isn't about rejection.  This is about saying, "I thought I could do something and I can't.  Writing brings me no joy anymore, and it's time to call it quits."  If a writer doesn't like what he does and his readers don't like what he does, why should he continue?

Now, in that mess of hurtful "things are awful and you should end it now" thoughts, I've avoided something important.  As Sunny says above, lots of prolific writers had a very slow start.  If you're really serious about writing, don't let rejection discourage you.  Instead, use it to drive yourself to become better.  Study books that have been successful and see how they differ from your own work.  Hire more editors if you can, and evaluate and incorporate their criticism and advice into your future projects.  Watch movies and ask yourself, "What did they do that makes this so compelling?"

You may be at the bottom of the abyss now, but that means there's nowhere to go but up.  If you have the desire to improve yourself, you WILL improve.  That's all there is to it.  Ultimately, you have the last word on your fate.  If you don't want to write anymore, don't write anymore.  If you do, work to fix your problems instead of giving in to them.


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## Kyle R (Dec 5, 2011)

^ Agree.

I also want to highlight the argument made in the OP:



			
				Winston said:
			
		

> It seems people are looking for stories written by writers, not (i_nsert menial job here)_.  I suppose that makes sense.



I'm going to go out on a limb here and estimate that the majority of first time published authors were (insert mential job here) people.

While it's true that many agents give preference to proven authors, I highly doubt that publishers would reject a manuscript because they disliked the author's form of employment.

If you want, you can even go the route of submitting manuscripts under an alias, with your own fictional history and career. I'm assuming it will make little difference. I could be wrong, of course, and maybe some agents only look at your bio to decide if they want to give you and advance or not. But, more likely than anything, it's the writing itself that gets your foot in the door, or gets you shown to it.

It also helps to learn as much as you can about the agents you feel match your genre the best, and the process of submitting your manuscript for review in general. Some agents have piles of manuscripts to go through, and they are looking for the earliest reason to reject you so they can get one more annoying script off the stack. Learn what these red flags are, and learn how to avoid them.


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## Sunny (Dec 5, 2011)

KyleColorado said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb here and estimate that the majority of first time published authors were (insert mential job here) people.
> 
> While it's true that many agents give preference to proven authors, I highly doubt that publishers would reject a manuscript because they disliked the author's form of employment.
> 
> ...



I agree with all of this. I'm no expert of what agents are looking for, but I have had a lot of conversations with a few published writers that have gone through this. 

Take Kelly Armstrong for instance. She is a huge success (Many times over, New York Times Best Sellers list) and she went through what all first time authors go through. Trying to get her work to be taken seriously by an agent or publisher. She told me it took her 5 years to write her first book because she was so busy looking after her family and working a _40 hour/week desk job _to put food on the table. She said it wasn't glamorous work, but she had to do it. 

Another writer I know, who has also hit the NYTBSL, told me to be cautious of so many different things. It's not only that you're a first time writer that might scare them off. It's the length of your book, do they already have clients that write the same genre as you (therefor they don't need anymore clients to try and sell it), they're looking for something new and fresh. She said that there are so many reasons that your book may get turned down that have nothing to do with your writing ability, or the style in which you write it. It could all come down to business needs, and you're book just isn't what they are after right then. 

Of all the countless months and months of research I've put into agents and what they're after, never have I heard of them not taking on a new client for their day job. Sometimes they look for the credentials that you have for writing such a book, espcially if it's non-fiction. They require to know why you're an expert on the topic and why people would take your views on the subject to be true. Ex. If you wrote a non-fiction book on serial killers and what makes them psychotic. Well the agent is going to want true credentials backing that up. They want to see that you were in the field of psychology dealing with these people first hand, not that you were a customer service rep with Telus. 

You must research each and every agent you query. They all have different guide lines, and if you don't follow them to the tee, well forget about it. You can look on their websites, but it's also a good idea to see what they like just from google searches. They generally have their own blogs, and other people have blogs with interviews with them. It's good to know what each of their specifications are. They all like things to be sent to them a certain way. 

There are also a lot of agents out there who are looking for new undiscovered talent. If you do your research for the genre you write, and the agents that are looking for new unpublished authors, just follow what they ask for. They all have it clearly stated what they want and why.

It take's a good hour or two for each agent you send your query to, but it's worth it to get it right (That is, if you do your reseach and don't just sent them out to random names at each agency). You've only got one shot to make a good impression.


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## Tiamat (Dec 5, 2011)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> Part of me wants to agree with you, but another part of me has to tell you that *no one but the person Winston paid to read his book has shown any interest in it*.  Shouldn't that throw up some red flags?
> 
> I have no experience with publishing, and absolutely no actual credentials when it comes to writing.  I make no claims as to my level of skill.  However, I will say this: I've had two people (who I don't know and who have no reason to read my work other than pure interest) read entirely through the 23 chapters I've written of my own story.  That's 130,000 words.  I didn't ask for them to do it. I didn't offer any reading exchanges.  I simply put my story out there and said, "Feel free to take a look."  These two people each took a 130,000 word look.  In other words, if what you write is worth reading, people WILL read it.


Yes and no about the red flag thing.  You've had quite a few other members post about how many dozens, or even hundreds of times today's famous authors were rejected.  Should they have given up?  Should that have been a red flag?

Of course not.  That's stupid defeatist rubbish.  His wife and daughter didn't like it.  Wow.  Who cares?  So two people _you didn't ask to read your book_ read it.  I'm guessing you posted it somewhere or passed it around a writing group to people who actually want to read things from beginning authors.  Not your wife.  Not your daughter.  Not people who really don't give a damn.

Secondly, Winston is sending out _queries_.

Have you ever tried to publish a novel?  Like, the conventional way?   I have.  Twice, now.  I've failed both times, and I've gotten some really scathing rejections.  My point here is that you send out a short, page long letter, along with a writing sample, which is sometimes as little as one page.  Then a high powered agent who's had a really long day and an inbox (or desk) full of queries to read before he can finally take a breather, sits down and decides if that book can sell based on a very miniscule sample of text.  And guess what:  _They read these things hoping to reject them._  If they agree to see more of the book, that means more unpaid work for them during their already exhausting day.  Your query letter is like your sales pitch, and your sample chapters, they're your product demo.  If there's even something tiny that seems off with either, fwoosh--into the trash bin.

Sound daunting?  It should.  Ready to give up?  I'm not.

Whether or not Winston is ready to throw in the towel is up to him, but he'll get no sympathy from me.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Dec 5, 2011)

Tiamat10 said:


> His wife and daughter didn't like it.  Wow.  Who cares?  So two people _you didn't ask to read your book_ read it.  I'm guessing you posted it somewhere or passed it around a writing group to people who actually want to read things from beginning authors.  Not your wife.  Not your daughter.  Not people who really don't give a damn.



Well then, that's on me for misinterpreting the original post.  I read it as, "I've been having people read it, and even the two people that _I really think should at least respond positively _didn't really care about it."  If the statement was literal, and Winston has ONLY ever run it by two people (who have no interest in writing in the first place), then he's going about this all wrong.  Before even taking something to an editor - a person who (as you said) is known to be the harshest critic possible - it's pretty darn important to make sure your work is the best you can make it.  If you're not even having your peers look over it first, of course it's going to be mediocre.  Of course it's going to get rejected.

My advice, then, is this: Make sure your story is something the average person can be interested in, THEN submit it to the publishers.  Don't just assume your work is sufficient without any external input.


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## Robdemanc (Dec 6, 2011)

KyleColorado said:


> ^ Agree.
> 
> I also want to highlight the argument made in the OP:
> 
> ...



I agree that agents may not necessarily care about what you do for a living but I would be averse to making something up.  The route I would take is to not say anything about how you pay your bills at the moment and just pitch your book.


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## SeverinR (Dec 6, 2011)

Sunny said:


> *Rejection is part of the process. These are only some of the ones I found.
> 
> *After 500 rejections spanning 4 years, the writer finally lands a publishing deal: Agatha Christie. Her book sales are now in excess of $2 billion. Only William Shakespeare has sold more.
> 
> ...


This is a great reminder for the author that gets the negitive replies.

If your family doesn't like your work, it might not be written in the style they prefer, or the wrong genre.  Mine do not like fantasy much, so it would not suprise me if they didn't like my works.

Going to an editor shows you are serious.

I always remind myself and others;
If you write to be rich and famous, 99.9% of the time you will fail.
If you write for self enjoyment, you win everytime.


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## Loulou (Dec 6, 2011)

Hi Winston,

If you’d sent a letter like this to an editor you hadn’t paid or a literary agent or publisher you’d never get anywhere.  Self-pity is unappealing.  We all feel it in those moments of rejection but it’s unprofessional and just embarrassing to pile it on with an editor.  Though I suppose if you’re paying them the rules are different.  I guess you’ve given him your money so you can say what you want.

Rejection is part of the writer’s life.  You have to never never never never stop writing if you hope to make it.  Anyone who gives up after a couple of rejections isn’t cut out for the writing world anyway because to make it as a writer you’ve got to have absolute faith in yourself.  You’ve got to have a skin of leather.  You’ve got to not mind that your family don’t read your work.  You’ve got to take criticism and turn it into positive.  You’ve got to get thirty rejections for a story and still start the next one.  You’ve got to write and write and write in spite of all this.  Write and take criticism and grow and learn, and write and take criticism and grow and learn and write, on and on and on.

I had many many rejections before my first short story was published three years ago.  I’ve had many since.  But I will never not write.  I completed a novel three years ago.  Sent chapters out to maybe thirty literary agents.  Got form rejections from them all.  So I started a second novel.  Did the same.  Got rejection after rejection.  In the meantime I wrote my newspaper columns and short stories (luckily a few won some big competitions.)  When I felt I’d learned some more I went back to my first novel and edited and edited and edited.  Then, two weeks ago, finally, a big literary agent in London liked my first three chapters and asked to read the full manuscript, exclusively.  Whatever the outcome, an agent liked it.  But hell, I’ve had to work hard.

A writer can’t make the excuse that they don’t have time.  None of us do.  We all have other things going on.  I work, have kids, and do voluntary work too.  I have a house to run.  We all do.  But you have to make time.  Some choose writing over sleep.  Over a social life.  Over me–time.  Over eating.

And a good editor or agent doesn’t care what your day job is.  I never even mentioned mine.  It wasn’t relevant.  The writing is all that should matter.

Winston, if you now know you’re not a ‘writer’ then all is not lost.  You might now find what it is you truly love.  When you find the thing you truly love doing, I assure you, you won’t stop.


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## themooresho (Dec 6, 2011)

I think Winston was being self-depreciating.  I think he is saying that publishers want work from a real writer, someone who is many classes above a lowly (insert menial job) like him.  In other words, he feels he is doomed to a life of servitude and obscurity because he feels like he doesn't have what it takes to rise above the masses and be noticed.  Something I can relate to.

Winston, I replied to your PM twice now, but it's still not showing up in my sent items box so I'm not sure you are getting it.  Not sure what's going on there.  Let me know if you got it.  If not, I'll just post the whole thing in a reply to this thread.


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## Loulou (Dec 7, 2011)

themooresho said:


> I think Winston was being self-depreciating.  I think he is saying that publishers want work from a real writer, someone who is many classes above a lowly (insert menial job) like him.  In other words, he feels he is doomed to a life of servitude and obscurity because he feels like he doesn't have what it takes to rise above the masses and be noticed.  Something I can relate to.
> 
> Winston, I replied to your PM twice now, but it's still not showing up in my sent items box so I'm not sure you are getting it.  Not sure what's going on there.  Let me know if you got it.  If not, I'll just post the whole thing in a reply to this thread.



Even if Winston was trying to be self-depreciating, it comes off as self-pity.  And that's leathal if he wants to be taken seriously.  That's all I'm trying to say.  And publishers may want work from a 'real writer' but being a 'real writer' has nothing to do with what their day job is.  Publishers want work from someone who is a great writer.  Simple as that.  They don't care if for the rest of the time a person cleans toilets or waits on tables.  Most writers have to support themselves via other means anyway.  I know I do.


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## movieman (Dec 7, 2011)

Sunny said:


> *Rejection is part of the process. These are only some of the ones I found. *



To be fair, the books being rejected may not be the ones that we've read. From what I remember, Lord of the Flies, for example, went through some substantial rewrites after the publisher finally picked it up.

And they were right about Dan Brown: his writing is awful, except that he's so good at maintaining the reader's desire to see what happens next that I managed to ignore it for two books before I promised never to read one again.

Fortunately there's no need to wait for hundreds of rejections anymore; if a book isn't picked up after a dozen queries, just self-publish it and write another one.


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## shadowwalker (Dec 7, 2011)

movieman said:


> Fortunately there's no need to wait for hundreds of rejections anymore; if a book isn't picked up after a dozen queries, just self-publish it and write another one.



Yeah - why bother working at it?


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## movieman (Dec 7, 2011)

shadowwalker said:


> Yeah - why bother working at it?



Writing is working. Begging agents and publishers to look at your book is often an excuse to avoid writing.


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## shadowwalker (Dec 7, 2011)

movieman said:


> Writing is working. Begging agents and publishers to look at your book is often an excuse to avoid writing.



An excuse to avoid writing? No one has to stop writing at all while waiting for replies to queries. However, self-publishing means those hours spent on the publishing end cannot be spent on the writing end. So one could just as easily say SP is an excuse - and you and I both know that's just as erroneous.

And querying is not begging - but I understand where that mindset is coming from, so...


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## Foxee (Dec 7, 2011)

Writing, if you expect to be paid for it, is a business and it would be a mistake to think otherwise.

If you've written a novel that is a product. Like it or not your manuscript, your baby, your labor of love is being put on the auction block. Be prepared for prospective buyers to look at it critically! Before that even happens, though, you have to draw their attention and that may be crass commercialism but if you expect to be published you'll do it. Even if you go the self-publishing route, that doesn't let you off the hook. In fact, I think that especially requires your attention! After all, a self-published book is still merely a product and in order to get someone to give you money in exchange for it, you'd better become the businessperson unless you've got someone who is willing to do that job for you.

Loulou hit the nail on the head, too, pretty much all of us have to support ourselves in other ways than writing alone. Don't define yourself by your day job when you're wearing your writer hat.


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## KarlR (Dec 7, 2011)

Foxee said:


> Writing, if you expect to be paid for it, is a business and it would be a mistake to think otherwise.
> 
> If you've written a novel that is a product. Like it or not your manuscript, your baby, your labor of love is being put on the auction block. Be prepared for prospective buyers to look at it critically! Before that even happens, though, you have to draw their attention and that may be crass commercialism but if you expect to be published you'll do it. Even if you go the self-publishing route, that doesn't let you off the hook. In fact, I think that especially requires your attention! After all, a self-published book is still merely a product and in order to get someone to give you money in exchange for it, you'd better become the businessperson unless you've got someone who is willing to do that job for you.


  meanie.


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## Foxee (Dec 7, 2011)

KarlR said:


> meanie.


Oh, you have _no_ idea.


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## starseed (Dec 7, 2011)

It made me cry that your wife and daughter wouldn't read your writing...  Seriously! I have so many supportive people around me and now I feel so lucky. Jeez, no wonder you don't feel good about yourself... these are the people who should be your number one fans.


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## j.w.olson (Dec 8, 2011)

starseed said:


> It made me cry that your wife and daughter wouldn't read your writing...  Seriously! I have so many supportive people around me and now I feel so lucky. Jeez, no wonder you don't feel good about yourself... these are the people who should be your number one fans.



It's awesome if they support you, of course, but I don't think they should be your number one fans. My wife tells it like it is, and I really appreciate her honesty. It's honesty that I can't expect from anyone else but strangers, given at a time when I'm not ready to share my work with strangers.

And I don't have kids yet, but really -- how many of you were super excited about your parents' careers/hobbies when you were a teenager? (Not sure how old the daughters mentioned so far are, but still.)


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## starseed (Dec 8, 2011)

Maybe it was just me but as a teenage girl I was very excited to read my dad's old writing. He was an aspiring writer when he was younger and totally gave up on it--I knew that wasn't going to be me but I was still inspired by him. I'd have read anything he asked me to and loved it. 

And my boyfriend is honest with me too. He actually is my number one fan because I write stuff that he really likes. I guess I'm thinking that usually couples have something in common and would like the same type of writing but I suppose that's not true for everyone like it is for us. 

Still, they could at least _read _it, you know? It sounds like they aren't even willing to give this dude a critique, which is lame in my view...


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## shadowwalker (Dec 8, 2011)

I've been on both sides of this 'family please read my stuff'. I've read some of a relative's stuff - and it was painful because it was a genre I totally was not interested in and subsequently I was bored stiff. The writing wasn't bad - I just could not get into that particular type of story.

Then I started writing and asked family members if they'd like to read my stuff. No takers (well, until I asked my son to read one of my stories and comment as a _Christmas present_ to me - that's how desperate I was then). They are all encouraging as all get out as far as my writing overall - but again, what I write they just are not interested in. I understand, finally. I'd rather they were encouraging without reading than reading just to humor me and otherwise dismissing my attempts.


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## starseed (Dec 8, 2011)

Yeah, I guess I just take for granted that my friends and family would all be into the sort of writing I do.


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## Franklin Delano McGuyver (Dec 12, 2011)

Winston said:


> I can understand that, even if it is hurtful.  If I had, in fact, written the most turgid piece of banal tripe to ever disgrace twenty-four pound printer stock, I would hope that my own family would lie to me, at least to spare my feelings.  No.
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...




I can see where the low tolerance stems from. But man, this guy is freakin' funny!

For the love of god, Winston, I laughed through the entire reading - and I sympathized at the same time! That is a talent, my friend. I joke not, you have humor in your veins.

I'd just like to add that I have no experience in publishing, but there are quite a few (published/recognized) artists in my family and I can say that resting that much of your self-esteem on the shoulders of your family is not a good idea. The reason is simple: expecting them to like your work is like expecting them to appreciate every movie you like the exact same way you do, or hobby, or... book.

Family support is fine - it's great, actually - but you're standing at the wrong angle. They should be acknowledging your effort (and they are), but what you should really look forward to is the feedback from reader's groups, novel junkies and people in general who would appreciate the genre of your book. I've had the displeasure of sending people my writings and having too little feedback. Just two out of, what, fifteen? I tried this maybe four times, until I got the message. People who live with you or work with you or walk with you don't necessarily will get kicks out of your work. It's just that. I couldn't count the piles of book I tried to read from writing gods - people who actually set the standard for masterful literature - and I just vomited. I can't stand reading another page on those books. They're boring. I just can't give a damn for what's going on. _And I don't know why_. I came to accept that truth, and that made me feel a way lot better. Now, I just ask "hey, if you're into this, give me a few words on feedback; and if it's not your cup of tea, please do me the favor of reading it because I really need a critique, would you?"

I was a judge in a forum's short story contest and, boy, it's _annoying_ to read something that you don't have the slightest interest in. I liked many of them, and many I detested, just because. But you don't like everything you read, do you? No, I kept reading and giving notes from an entyrely technical standpoint (if such is possible), just as I was asked to. For all of this, and for being the person who had to read and cheer for someone I hold dearly, even though I wasn't very much into their work, but I had total confidence it was good and deserved an honest support and feedback, I say to you: you're looking for readers and field critique right now, not family support. Don't mix the two concepts, although they should work very well separately.


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## Winston (Jan 16, 2012)

Back from the dead.  

After some time to reflect, I'm resurrecting this corpse of a post.  My ability and drive to write are either "dead" or "mostly dead".  Princess Bride references aside, some things are better off left to rot.  The decay gives new life to barren soil, so that others may grow.

My initial reaction after reading the first few posts was, "These people are a bunch of callous, sadistic cretins taking pleasure off of my misery".  That judgment still stands.  Regardless, even amongst the most mean, impersonal kicking I've endured while prostrate, there is often a shine on the end of the boot.  I can see my reflection in that curved, distorted view of myself as you verbally pummeled me.

You do not know me.  If you did, your insinuation that I am some sort of a "quitter" would sound as nonsensical to you as uttering Hollywood produces "quality".  
The assertion is that I should "just shut up and write".  Really?  Believe it or not, the thought had occurred to me.  The problem was freeing up a _writing hand_.  At 5AM, my hand has a bar of soap and toothbrush occupying it.  By 5:40, my motorcycle grips require my hands.  7AM finds my hands with a phone calling customers. 8ish, my hands are now on a work van steering wheel.  From 8:30 to 5 or so, My hands take turns carrying and using equipment, with an occasional break back on the steering wheel.  5:30, motorcycle grips again.  About Seven PM, My hands are graced with a knife and fork.  Sometime after that, my hands wrap around dirty dinner dishes or laundry.  If I haven't passed out by this point, my hands clutch a bill that needs to be paid, or one of my kids' homework assignments.
By Ten or Eleven, my dirty, calloused hands grip a soft cotton pillow.  I sleep and repeat the above-mentioned process.

That is just an example of the *Physical *limits I face.  The* Emotional *and *Spiritual *barriers I face are something that no one, especially here, seems to have the slightest understanding.

Anyway, my sincerest thanks for "the hand".  It just wasn't the hand I needed.


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## shadowwalker (Jan 16, 2012)

Winston, what you don't seem to understand is that the vast majority of writers (published or still at the wannabe stage) also have demanding day jobs and families and bills and everything else that normal people have. You're not the only one who faces obstacles. So yeah, we do understand - which is why we empathize but don't sympathize.

Writers get rejections. All the time. But what successful writers don't do is give up. They _make _time to write. They _listen _to what the rejections are telling them. They _find _the right people to critique their writing. And they don't dismiss the advice from the people who have been there.


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## Jon M (Jan 17, 2012)

Be a victim if it suits you, Winston. Just know you're certainly not alone. The last year was hell for me. Diagnosed with two diseases (on top of the chronic jaw pain I've dealt with for five years), thrown into debt, swallowing handfuls of pills everyday, having to deal with a boss five years my junior who just doesn't seem to understand what it's like to be sick, to lose one's health, to be unable to work. He's young enough to think he's invincible. I can barely afford to breathe. I'm at the age where I should have a career, the American Dream falling neatly into place, but I wasted my time, and I'm paying for it now. Seems like every other day I consider offing myself.

Everyone's got problems, buddy. Everyone. There's never enough time. The simple truth is that you make time for the things that matter. You vote with your time. Every miserable fucking second. Take a pen and paper and write on the job, on your downtime, on breaks, whatever.


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## ScientistAsHero (Jan 17, 2012)

Winston, I can empathize with you too but your resurrecting this thread just to gripe at the people who said anything to you about your initial post is very petty. 

First off, my wife is not that interested in reading what I write, either. She doesn't get as much out of books as I do and she is not a writer. She is supportive in telling me, "If you want to write, go for it," but aside from that she doesn't really seem that interested in reading what her husband devotes so much time and effort to.

But, I don't fault her for it, because she is a different person than me. She is way more level-headed and doesn't get the same kick out of exploring worlds of fantasy or sci-fi like I do. And, while I'd enjoy it if she read my stuff, I'm not going to insist on it or resent her if she doesn't. She likes to crochet, which I find immensely boring. Aside from me looking at her latest crochet creation or getting her new needles and yarn for Christmas, what am I supposed to do? I don't think she expects me to sit down and listen to her go on for hours about the latest cross-stitch techniques. Yes, I listen to her and yes, I offer her support where I can, but we both realize that we share drastically different interests, and that's okay.

I am involved in a writer's group with my older sister. We meet with a bunch of other people about once a month, and everyone reads their stuff out loud and talks and critiques each other's work. It is tremendously encouraging and is awesome to be involved with like-minded people as me. Is there nowhere out there that you could find a "support group" like that? 

You mentioned in your original post how instead of leaving you time to write, your family leaves you messes and dirty dishes. Can you not talk to your wife about this? I think it's totally reasonable that you would ask for an afternoon or evening off once a week, or whatever, depending on you and your family's schedule, just for you to write. And maybe adhering to that schedule got lost in the daily shuffle for your wife and kids. But the way you come across, it sounds like you are annoyed that your family isn't recognizing your potential for creative genius. You may have great ideas, that if they were published or made well-known might cause a media sensation. But until you actually do that, you are just one more guy, just like the rest of us. So why do you sound as though you think people should make special considerations for you?

And as far as you discussing the various things you have to do during the course of your workday. We could literally ALL probably write lists like that. 

It's not that we can't empathize with you... we do, and many of us are in the same boat. But in your original post you seemed like you were looking for pity and in your last post you seemed like the only reason you brought it back to life was to bitch at the people who said anything you didn't like. I truly think that it'd be a shame if you quit writing, as you appear to be thinking about. But if you did, it would be no one's fault but your own. Every writer goes through rejection, disinterest, etc. and they all manage to make it despite all that.


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## Foxee (Jan 17, 2012)

Winston, do you seriously think that other writers on this forum don't face physical limitations? Oh my GOSH, I can think of at least four people right now who suffer severe physical problems and at least two who have what most people would consider mental difficulties that should keep them from writing. Lack of time? Seriously, you can't use that either. There are people who are parents, full-time workers, and busy with all kind of other activities beyond those two and they're still writing. Maybe not fast, maybe not a lot at a time, but with dogged determination because they WANT to.

We aren't taking pleasure in anyone's misery we're telling you that your day job doesn't matter and that if you stretch you can do it. We're telling you to cram in some learning, developing, and growing your art because if you're getting that lackluster of a response to your writing _chances are good that you are not there yet._

I've been rejected and I know that a proper response to that is not to whine that it's unfair but to figure out what would make my writing better.

We understand just fine, we understand that you're heading the wrong way to learn, grow, and write. If you don't want to listen, that's your business but it's pointless to revive your thread to complain.

If you WANT it DO it.


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## philistine (Jan 17, 2012)

The atmosphere in this thread is so damn bitter, I had to put on a cardigan before touching my keyboard. I just stopped by to say a few things:

On the topic of family reading and/or appreciating my work; well, that hasn't really happened... much, anyway. I printed my first real attempt at a story out, showed it to my sister (who isn't a regular reader, it's worth mentioning) and she enjoyed it very much. Several months later-- last month, as a matter of fact, I printed my first miniature anthology of short stories out, ten in total, and showed it to my grandfather. I asked him once, and once only, a week after giving him the copy, if he had read any of it, and if he had enjoyed the work within. I got a 'yeah, yeah, they were very good'. 

Whether that means he read them, expecting they were good, and enjoyed them... expectedly. Or, he didn't read them, as it just wasn't in his interest. I wasn't offended over it all, as I understand that I'm asking someone to take time out of their day to read something I've written. Whether they would simply wait until they felt like reading, or if they aren't a regular reader, that they didn't plan on reading it at all. 

I could list all the hardships going on in my life right now, though it'd sicken me to engage in a one-up contest of sorts. Let's just say that the last few months' transpirations are usually known to leave people emotional wrecks. I realise crumbling won't help, and that is enough. 

Writing, much like any form of art, is unnecessary. Many great names of the past have said it to be so, that it is 'the most worthless thing imaginable', but that doesn't stop artists, writers, printmakers, actors, draughtsmen, and many other artisans from exercising their abilities. They do it for the love of what it brings to them, not to others. 
_
ars gratia artis


_


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## Aderyn (Jan 17, 2012)

My two cents:

1) if you renew your 'drive' to write you'll have to make the time for it.  Sorry to sound like a marriage counsellor, but you'll have to tell your wife that every Saturday, or something you'll be writing.  This way your family will know (my partner keeps telling me he's not a 'mind reader'), and your wife can show her support by keeping you free from distractions during that time.  If she doesn't support this then maybe you do need a marriage counsellor  you need to carve out a time for your writing and stick to it as much as possible.

2) I like your writing style.  Maybe you should post more of your work for feedback in the forums.


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## Winston (Jan 17, 2012)

Sorry.  I forgot to thank those of you that provided constructive, non-judgmental suggestions.  It was a bit tedious sifting through all the "It's tough, but others have made it" reminders.  I'm going to refrain from sarcasm (just this once) and say that, yes, I was aware that the entire process is difficult and requires hard work.  Yes, I know that some writers have overcome great obstacles, greater than anything I face.
I an not them, and I am tired.

I'm really not that offended by the harshness of some of the "support" offered.  I think back to when I first joined this "community", reading the following advice given to new writers that stated (paraphrase); "Take what you hear here with a grain of salt.  No one here is a best-selling author.  Everyone here is a novice, learning and refining their skill..."
Noted.  
I would just add that "tough love" worked on me when I was seventeen in USMC Boot Camp. Not so much since.  IF that was the intent. 

No, I think that there was much, much more of the Tough, and a lot less of the Other Thing.  Sometimes, a kind word from a stranger goes a long way.  Or so I've heard.

Again, refraining from sarcasm (this is VERY difficult), I would like to thank those of you that responded in your own heartfelt way.  I am now more bitter and angry than I have been since my mother died.
I will write.  I will write venomous, vile stories that come from my heart.  Stories that reflect the worst in Mankind.  Stories that leave the reader feeling dirty, and empty.  I'll self publish, with the grim satisfaction that the few dozen people that download my work will be worse off for the time spent reading it.
I wanted to write stories that showed the full spectrum of the human condition.  Perhaps not with happy endings, but believable ones.
Based on what I have seen, I believe differently now.  And there are never happy endings.

Thank you again for the input.  And motivation.


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## ScientistAsHero (Jan 18, 2012)

Will they be stories about how all the bad in your characters' lives are caused by the rest of the world?


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## Gardening Girl (Jan 19, 2012)

Winston said:


> _I wanted to write stories that showed the full spectrum of the human condition.  Perhaps not with happy endings, but believable ones.
> Based on what I have seen, I believe differently now.  And there are never happy endings.
> 
> _Happy endings do exist.  You have to want them and believe it them.
> ...


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## maire (Jan 22, 2012)

movieman said:


> To be fair, the books being rejected may not be the ones that we've read. From what I remember, Lord of the Flies, for example, went through some substantial rewrites after the publisher finally picked it up.
> 
> And they were right about Dan Brown: his writing is awful, except that he's so good at maintaining the reader's desire to see what happens next that I managed to ignore it for two books before I promised never to read one again.
> 
> *Fortunately there's no need to wait for hundreds of rejections anymore; if a book isn't picked up after a dozen queries, just self-publish it and write another one.*


Not everyone wants to self-publish or give away first rights to self-publishing. If you want to be published traditionally, and then you put your first novel through self-publishing there's slim to none chance that you will get picked up by an agent or be published traditionally. This is good advice if someone wants to self-publish, but not everyone is going that route. Not every author wants to do their own marketing, their own publishing. 

I think you are forgetting who has the upper hand.


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## Aderyn (Jan 23, 2012)

Winston said:


> .
> I will write.  I will write venomous, vile stories that come from my heart.  Stories that reflect the worst in Mankind.  Stories that leave the reader feeling dirty, and empty.  I'll self publish, with the grim satisfaction that the few dozen people that download my work will be worse off for the time spent reading it.
> I wanted to write stories that showed the full spectrum of the human condition.  Perhaps not with happy endings, but believable ones.
> Based on what I have seen, I believe differently now.  And there are never happy endings.
> .



This is how I would describe Annie Proulx's writing.


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