# Serious? writers



## T.S.Bowman (Jan 31, 2014)

Something that I have always had problems with is  taking myself seriously as a writer. I just can't seem to keep a  straight face when I try to tell someone that I am a writer. 

I was reading a review that I got for a couple of chapters from my  novel, and it said (paraphrasing here) that I have a good imagination  and that my book could be well received once I sharpen my skills a bit. 

Cool. I can live with that.

But...that got me to thinking. Does having someone say something like  that, and keep in mind that the place it came from is a site with a  whole bunch of people who take themselves _very_ seriously, mean that I need to start taking myself more seriously?

Is that a requirement for a writer? Or can a good writer still have to suppress a grin every time he/she says "I am a writer"? 

I fully admit that when it comes to the "rules of writing", I am pretty  much clueless. I know what I like to read and I try to write  accordingly. But, a published (several books) writer I know once told me  that not writing according to the rules is not really all that bad  because the rules were pretty much outdated on the day they were set  down.

I understand that I probably need to take the "craft" of writing more  seriously. But even that is a stretch for me because if I start to think  about the craft, then I start to block myself because I tend (being a  Virgo) to over think things. I mean, for crying out loud, I have been  working on the same novel for almost 6 years now. If I start thinking  about the rules...I'll NEVER finish it. LOL

So that leads me to a question for all of you, fellow writers....

How seriously do you take yourself? Not the craft of writing...we all try to be serious about that...

But you. How serious are you about YOU?

Do you write because you want to change the world? Because you think you  WILL change the world? For the sheer joy of it? To entertain others? To  entertain yourself, if no one else?

Just curious.


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## BobtailCon (Jan 31, 2014)

It depends on your definition of serious. Do you mean serious as in making a living from writing? Or maybe that you don't want people to poke fun of 
your work?

I feel every writer holds some seriousness. Just like every artist/musician/other. I personally take my writing seriously in the way that I enjoy what I do
 and I would expect others to respect my writing. I've never had a problem telling others that I'm a writer, I can't relate with you on that.


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## Gavrushka (Jan 31, 2014)

I don't really know how to answer this, as how people approach writing varies. IF your jovial, perhaps flippant, attitude to writing works, then why worry?

There won't, however, be many people that accept that lacking comprehensive knowledge of grammar/style will help you in producing something marketable. - Yes, it is true that rules can be broken, and often are, but that has to be done with a reason. - If you lack grammar skills, you will struggle to articulate a story in a fashion that works for the majority. Now, I believe you've said yourself that you've seen the technical standard of your prose improve as you write, and that continues to happen as a by-product of the act of writing. - A fault realised will likely not be repeated. - It's why I'd suggested entering the WF literary competition as it will help you identify where you stand on both a technical and creative level, and then you can make improvements from an informed position rather than when something trips you.

Yes, as BobtailCon mentioned, seriousness is akin to focus; you can write however you want as long as you've that focus so that you can give all you are capable of giving.

I think the fact you've started this thread suggests you're analysing where you are now and looking at, perhaps, where you want to be. - You've a lot of hard work to get through, as it's a tough journey. Stout walking boots, a thick skin and tenacity are three things you'll need.

My dream is to entertain people with my words. - I take it very seriously, but I accept, like almost everyone else that writes, it is unlikely I'll be anything more than a mumbled name in a literary sense. - It doesn't stop me from trying, and it doesn't stop me from enjoying the journey.


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## Potty (Jan 31, 2014)

I call myself a writer in all seriousness... Can't really call it carpentry.


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## The Tourist (Jan 31, 2014)

At this point of my life I take very little serious, about myself and others.  I wear many hats, and writing is only one of the things I do.

If I am to treat any aspect of the craft with respect, it's in the use of the language.  I'd rather sharpen my skills to communicate, be that in my book, in letters to the editor, here in the forum, or even within the legal system.

If you become a good writer, then you can transport that heightened proclivity into other aspects of your life.


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## patskywriter (Jan 31, 2014)

I have no problem at all saying that I'm a writer. Writers write, and that's what I do. Are you waiting to get to a certain level before you can call yourself a writer? That's okay, I suppose, as long as you can tell when you've "arrived." It's totally up to you.


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## T.S.Bowman (Jan 31, 2014)

patskywriter said:


> I have no problem at all saying that I'm a writer. Writers write, and that's what I do. Are you waiting to get to a certain level before you can call yourself a writer? That's okay, I suppose, as long as you can tell when you've "arrived." It's totally up to you.



Therein lies the rub. I really have no idea if I would ever feel like I have "arrived". I don't know if I am waiting to reach a certain level.

Like gavrushka suggested...perhaps I am analyzing a bit about what I plan to do and where I want to be. But...it was words from Gavrushka that got me thinking about it at all. Like I said...I take what I am _doing_ seriously. I just don't take myself too seriously. I know (and this will probably sound a bit egotistical) that I can tell a pretty damn good story. But, I also know that I need to get quite a bit better at _writing_ those stories. Gavrushka mentioned my over-use of words ending in 'ly'. That is something I will definitely go back to fix.

But..back to another part of the original post. A couple of nights ago, in a fit of boredom, I decided to look up the rules of writing. Imagine my surprise when I looked up 10 different writers, from Elmore Leonard to Neil Gaiman, and saw ten different ideas of what the "rules" are.

On another site, the writer who told me that it may not be a bad thing to break some of the rules was disagreed with. I understand why. But I also feel like there are atleast a few of those rules that could do with a bit of a kick to bring them up into the 21st century. I was also told on the other site that the only way to get away with breaking or flaunting the rules in the kind of ways I am talking about, is to earn the respect that would allow one to do so.

But how would one earn the respect for being unconventional without actually _being _unconventional?

I am not saying that I think I am good enough (not by any stretch of the imagination) to completely ignore the ways that others have used to find success. 

But on the other hand, I'm not really looking to create a literary masterpiece. Think of me what you will for saying that. I have a thick enough skin that you aren't going to hurt my feelings any if you don't care for that particular statement. I have seen it said that a "good" novel contains a specific few things. I don't remember much about them except for one that said the main character must face conflict, be it internal or external.  I can deal with that. 

But when it comes to having a boilerplate pattern that "must" be followed for a novel to be considered "good"...I may just have to take a pass and face the consequences. If I never sell my novel, I guess I will live with that. Or, I could always self publish.


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## T.S.Bowman (Jan 31, 2014)

BobtailCon said:


> It depends on your definition of serious. Do you mean serious as in making a living from writing? Or maybe that you don't want people to poke fun of
> your work?



Having someone poke fun at my work is the least of my worries. I would actually welcome it because that would mean someone was paying attention to it. 

I have no illusions of ever being able to make enough to make writing my living. I may be able to tell a good story, and may even be able to put it in coherent sentences, but I won't delude myself into thinking that millions of people would love it. Some will, some won't. I can almost promise that among Fantasy readers, there won't be a whole lot of middle ground to be found.


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## Sam (Jan 31, 2014)

Will taking yourself seriously help you write better or with greater regularity? If the answer to that question is 'no', why are you worrying? If it is 'yes', I suggest you start taking yourself more seriously. There really are no other variables than that.


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## The Tourist (Jan 31, 2014)

Sam said:


> Will taking yourself seriously help you write better or with greater regularity?



Sam, while I agree with your premise, I find that I cannot make it work for me.  The problem is that I am retired.

For example, the only thing in life I do take seriously is my job.  There are four reported instances of a cop or EMT using a knife I sharpened to slice through a seat-belt and save a victim.  It's hard to put a waterstone on a knife edge and not think about that.

But even bikes don't command the same gunfighter intensity as they once did.  They are a pleasant diversion.  And I approach writing in that same mindset.

Now, when I write I try to make it the best I can craft.  But let's be honest, I'm not writing for rent and food money.  I write because I can.  I have all of the time in the world.  I got at about 0300 this morning, time doesn't mean anything when you don't punch a clock.

With no deadlines, the panic-driven attributes melt away.  I write because it's fun.  And in this iteration of my life, if it ain't fun I stop doing whatever it is.

So, technically, can I even call myself a writer--I mean, with a straight face?  I do have a book +3/4 finished, it exists and I wrote it...


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## Deleted member 49710 (Jan 31, 2014)

In all honesty, I'd try to spend more time and energy on writing and less on thinking about yourself as writer. Sorta like love--if it's serious, you know.


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## ppsage (Jan 31, 2014)

I am writing right now. I am taking it seriously and I am not taking it seriously. I'm not sure how I do that.


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## The Tourist (Jan 31, 2014)

lasm said:


> In all honesty, I'd try to spend more time and thought on writing and less on thinking about yourself as writer. Sorta like love--if it's serious, you know.



I was dining with my dad when a waiter burst in and apologized to the maître d' for being late.  When the flustered kid arrived at our table, he explained that he was an actor and had just come from an audition.  

When he left, my dad stated, _"In life, you are what you do--that pretender is simply a bad waiter..."_

If my dad was correct, that means I'm a "kept man."  Now, unlike the waiter, I'm a very good kept man.  You should see me fold laundry...

So to answer your post, do you know you're a writer?


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## Jeko (Jan 31, 2014)

I take myself seriously to the extent that I don't worry how seriously I take myself.


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## The Tourist (Jan 31, 2014)

Cadence said:


> I take myself seriously to the extent that I don't worry how seriously I take myself.



Granted, I feel the same, but again, it's based on the fact that I'm retired.  The first year or so when I stopped working I did go through a slight depressive cycle of feeling I had "left the game."

In fact, lots of the guys I meet at the gym who are now making that transition all add the proviso, _"Oh, but I'll still work part-time or do some consulting..."_

They want to take life a bit easier, but the issue of being sidelined is tough to face.  I think all of us have an "identity," whether it's accurate or not.  One of my friends is a haberdasher, and he says that all men say the same thing upon seeing themselves in a three-way mirror.  They all comment they should lose some weight and get a haircut.  Their self-image is a fantasy.

My adjustment into a comfort zone stemmed from "sour grapes."  I stood at the window one morning with a second cup of coffee, still in a bathrobe, and watched the other daddies drive to work.  I scoffed, _"What idiot wants to work in this modern cistern..."_ 

But the thought persisted.  I was gunfighter for a living.  I saved the companies of lazy owners too stupid or stubborn to put out their own fires.  I hated the job, I was simply good at it, and frankly I didn't know what else to do.  It took a year to realize I was calmer after leaving and even my health improved.

So, to circle back, do we know we're writers, are we simply deluding ourselves, or is it a successful little white lie we have sucked ourselves into?  I don't really think I'm writer in the traditional sense.  I would add the seeming oddball "gentleman," as in gentleman farmer or gentleman rancher.  I'm a gentleman writer.  

But be warned.  You'll walk the same mile, and facing who you really are is the greatest enemy of them all.


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## T.S.Bowman (Jan 31, 2014)

lasm said:


> In all honesty, I'd try to spend more time and energy on writing and less on thinking about yourself as writer. Sorta like love--if it's serious, you know.



Unfortunately, I am a Virgo. I think about stuff like this whether I want to or not. LOL

That, combined with trying to be a writer on the family computer doesn't work very well as far as time goes. I'll be getting my laptop fixed or be getting a new one in a couple of weeks so then I will be able to heed your advice. 

Besides, I _like_ posting things like this on this site. I always get some very well thought out responses.


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## T.S.Bowman (Jan 31, 2014)

ppsage said:


> I am writing right now. I am taking it seriously and I am not taking it seriously. I'm not sure how I do that.



I'm not sure either. But I _can _relate.


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## Terry D (Jan 31, 2014)

T.S.Bpwman said:


> So that leads me to a question for all of you, fellow writers....
> 
> How seriously do you take yourself? Not the craft of writing...we all try to be serious about that...
> 
> ...



I write because it's fun; hard, but fun. I also very much enjoy entertaining others. I like the challenge of creating a fictional world and getting my characters through the story. Personally I don't take myself very seriously at all, but when I take on a task, I take it very seriously regardless of who it pisses off.


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## Pandora (Jan 31, 2014)

Do we think the term serious writer means one of quality? That work is judged on merit decided by other serious writers?
The seriousness for me is the bonds I make sharing what I have to share . . . me. 
That connection in all seriousness is what I live for.


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## Schrody (Jan 31, 2014)

If you don't take yourself seriously, how will others? Writer is a writer since first word, no matter published or not. Question is, do you really want to be a writer? Yeah, I know, people often don't think writing is a job, but that shouldn't change your mind. I think you need to settle some things with yourself, and decide what and how you want it. I think almost every writer is serious about writing, and it doesn't have anything with how much you write. 

Tourist, I like your signature.


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## Terry D (Jan 31, 2014)

Schrody said:


> If you don't take yourself seriously, how will others? Writer is a writer since first word, no matter published or not. Question is, do you really want to be a writer? Yeah, I know, people often don't think writing is a job, but that shouldn't change your mind. I think you need to settle some things with yourself, and decide what and how you want it. I think almost every writer is serious about writing, and it doesn't have anything with how much you write.
> 
> Tourist, I like your signature.



I disagree. There are lots of people who like the thought of being a writer, but who are unwilling to put in the work to do it well, or to even finish a project. Most people who claim to be writers--particularly on forums like this--aren't willing to go through the growing pains. Just because I pick up a harmonica once in a while doesn't make me a musician.


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## The Tourist (Jan 31, 2014)

Schrody said:


> If you don't take yourself seriously, how will others?...Question is, do you really want to be a writer?



Schrody, I'm wondering if "serious" is the really the word we need here.  For example, lots of the stuff in my book is flat out funny.  Technically, you could say I'm serious about humor.

Would the word "dedicated" be better for the purposes of this thread?  I mean, I'm trying to write good quality stuff while being an abject hobbyist.

If you want "serious," send me a jackknife to polish...




> Tourist, I like your signature.



You then have to thank our Matriarch, family historian, speak-easy flapper, Palermo born fascist, and enemy to all Corsicans, my Aunt Clara.

I'm always in the blade sections of firearms forums and make no secret of the fact I dislike a magazine called "Tactical Knives."  I think it's written by posers who haven't had their noses bloodied since grade school.  I ask the question, _"What's the difference between a writer at TK Magazine and my Aunt Clara?"_

The answer is simple.  Aunt Clara has actually been in a knife fight.

With blood lines like hers, how can I be afraid of anything?  LOL


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## T.S.Bowman (Jan 31, 2014)

Schrody said:


> If you don't take yourself seriously, how will others? Writer is a writer since first word, no matter published or not. Question is, do you really want to be a writer? Yeah, I know, people often don't think writing is a job, but that shouldn't change your mind. I think you need to settle some things with yourself, and decide what and how you want it. I think almost every writer is serious about writing, and it doesn't have anything with how much you write.
> 
> Tourist, I like your signature.



I think there may be a bit of miscommunication. I take writing itself very seriously. If I didn't, I would just take what I have now and start submitting it. But I know it isn't ready. It will be a while before it is.

It's myself, and the thought that I am a writer, that I don't take seriously. I love writing, and I give the craft the respect it deserves.

I have read a lot of books in my lifetime and I could probably name a couple of authors (at least one for sure) that I am relatively certain took _themselves _too seriously and had the work, in my opinion, suffer for it.


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## Morkonan (Jan 31, 2014)

T.S.Bpwman said:


> ....Is that a requirement for a writer? Or can a good writer still have to suppress a grin every time he/she says "I am a writer"?




I saw an interview with a professional surfer a couple of days ago. The interviewer questioned him about his dedication to his sport, what it felt like to be a professional surfer, doing something he loved, and even walked through the surfer's workout routines with him.

The professional surfer didn't crack one smile, didn't make one joke, didn't show the least bit of levity in his responses... Nothing, just a cold, hard, focused dedication to his sport. With the stony face only duplicated by military snipers the moment before they pull the trigger, the professional surfer looked into the camera and said "I love my sport."

Why? Why so serious? Well, I think it's obvious - The professional surfer knows that many people who don't really know much about professional surfing probably don't really consider it being a "professional sport."

And, that's why I think some writers suppress an embarrassed grin (Yes, embarrassed) when they respond "I'm a writer." But, there are a few that grin in earnest, unable to contain the joy of their admission.  What sort of grin are you talking about? Is it the embarrassed grin of someone making a claim to something that they may not truly feel deserves to be mentioned? Or, is it the grin of the truly exuberant claim?



> How seriously do you take yourself? Not the craft of writing...we all try to be serious about that...
> 
> But you. How serious are you about YOU?
> 
> ...



I write because I write and I have no choice other than to write. That's sort of a derpy answer, but it's the truth - Writers write. I don't take myself too seriously, but I do take certain things seriously, when I believe it's seriously appropriate to do so. I take the Craft seriously as well as some of the subject matter that I write about. But, I am careful to afford myself the necessary exit into laughter, should it ever be necessary.


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## Schrody (Jan 31, 2014)

Terry D said:


> I disagree. *There are lots of people who like the thought of being a writer, but who are unwilling to put in the work to do it well, or to even finish a project.* Most people who claim to be writers--particularly on forums like this--aren't willing to go through the growing pains. Just because I pick up a harmonica once in a while doesn't make me a musician.



True, but they're posers, not writers. 



The Tourist said:


> Schrody, I'm wondering if "serious" is the really the word we need here.  For example, lots of the stuff in my book is flat out funny.  Technically, you could say I'm serious about humor.
> 
> Would the word "dedicated" be better for the purposes of this thread?  I mean, I'm trying to write good quality stuff while being an abject hobbyist.
> 
> If you want "serious," send me a jackknife to polish...



No, no, I'm not talking about writing serious books (God knows I have pretty looney stories too), I'm saying if you want to be a writer (and a successful too) you should take yourself and your writing seriously whether you write once a month or every day.



The Tourist said:


> You then have to thank our Matriarch, family historian, speak-easy flapper, Palermo born fascist, and enemy to all Corsicans, my Aunt Clara.
> 
> I'm always in the blade sections of firearms forums and make no secret of the fact I dislike a magazine called "Tactical Knives."  I think it's written by posers who haven't had their noses bloodied since grade school.  I ask the question, _"What's the difference between a writer at TK Magazine and my Aunt Clara?"_
> 
> ...




Sounds like the kind of woman I'd like to meet.  And she's right. Why would anyone want to be liked by everybody? Where's the fun in that? 



T.S.Bpwman said:


> I think there may be a bit of miscommunication. I take writing itself very seriously. If I didn't, I would just take what I have now and start submitting it. But I know it isn't ready. It will be a while before it is.
> 
> *It's myself, and the thought that I am a writer, that I don't take seriously.* I love writing, and I give the craft the respect it deserves.
> 
> I have read a lot of books in my lifetime and I could probably name a couple of authors (at least one for sure) that I am relatively certain took _themselves _too seriously and had the work, in my opinion, suffer for it.



That's what I said, if you don't take yourself seriously, why would others? But don't get too self confident - (too big) ego is not a friend of a writer. So, go on, take some pride in your work, even if you wrote really bad story, every writer (serious one) evolves over time.


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## The Tourist (Jan 31, 2014)

Schrody said:


> Sounds like the kind of woman I'd like to meet.  And she's right. Why would anyone want to be liked by everybody? Where's the fun in that?



Oh, you'll get no argument from me.  I think people should step out boldly in faith just walking out to get the mail.  As you know, I buy warning nipples in bulk packs...

Now, I believe in some circumstances "decorum" is required.  I do my part in that regard--I avoid those places like the plague!  Yikes, I have my reasons, my ex-girl friends have a club, and their mascot is a voodoo doll.  Freedom isn't free, but what the hey, broken bones heal, chicks dig scars.

My contribution to "serious" writing is that concept put into practice.  I never want to do a Mary Sue sprinkled, black ops, Navy SEAL sausage fest.  If it's "all the rage" I want it all out of my stories.

Now I don't care if I offend every transgender Lithuanian on a unicycle.  If the tale I want to tell requires a bit of paint-rubbing, then I'm going to use the most effect word pictures I can craft.

But I still wouldn't rely on the word "serious."  To me that's being responsible, creative and honest.


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 1, 2014)

Schrody said:


> True, but they're posers, not writers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well..as I said before..I do take pride in my writing. If I didn't. I wouldn't be posting things here and asking for others' opinions and input. I want to be as good as I can be. 

@Morkonan - It's definitely not a grin of embarrassment. I do enjoy telling people that I am a writer. So I guess it's more along the lines of exuberance that makes me grin. Part of it is also the reactions I get when I tell people I am a writer. Let's just say that I don't really look the part. It's kind of the same effect as when I tell people I play golf.


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 1, 2014)

> If it's "all the rage" I want it all out of my stories.



On that note...you will NEVER see me writing anything about Vampires...Werewolves or any combination of the two. I have had it up to here with that drivel. The last vampire book I read was Salem's Lot. I actually tried to read one of the Twilight books just to see what the hoopla was all about. Let's just say that I think Stephanie Meyers needs to be slapped repeatedly.


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## Blade (Feb 1, 2014)

The Tourist said:


> Schrody, I'm wondering if "serious" is the really the word we need here.  For example, lots of the stuff in my book is flat out funny.  Technically, you could say I'm serious about humor.
> 
> Would the word "dedicated" be better for the purposes of this thread?  I mean, I'm trying to write good quality stuff while being an abject hobbyist.



I could go with that, 'serious' does have a sort of grim, static tone about it that does not really fit the issue.

I like to think of it being like playing in a sandbox when you are about five or so. There is intense absorption in the project at hand but it is also fun.


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## Schrody (Feb 1, 2014)

The Tourist said:


> Oh, you'll get no argument from me.  I think people should step out boldly in faith just walking out to get the mail.  As you know, I buy warning nipples in bulk packs...



What's that?



The Tourist said:


> My contribution to "serious" writing is that concept put into practice.  I never want to do a Mary Sue sprinkled, black ops, Navy SEAL sausage fest.  If it's "all the rage" I want it all out of my stories.
> 
> Now I don't care if I offend every transgender Lithuanian on a unicycle.


 
LOL.



The Tourist said:


> If the tale I want to tell requires a bit of paint-rubbing, then I'm going to use the most effect word pictures I can craft.
> 
> But I still wouldn't rely on the word "serious."  To me that's *being responsible, creative and honest.*



That's the point, isn't it? 



T.S.Bpwman said:


> Well..as I said before..I do take pride in my writing. If I didn't. I wouldn't be posting things here and asking for others' opinions and input. I want to be as good as I can be.



It seems that you eager to write the best you can - now. And it doesn't work that way. You'll need years of practice and writing, as I said, as writing evolves - writer does too. Just enjoy the process, sure, it won't be easy sometimes, but what is? It'll come over time, but don't miss the fun of it. Heck, I'm writing for years, and I know I'll get better with years to come. It's a never ending process.



T.S.Bpwman said:


> On that note...you will NEVER see me writing anything about Vampires...Werewolves or any combination of the two. I have had it up to here with that drivel. The last vampire book I read was Salem's Lot. I actually tried to read one of the Twilight books just to see what the hoopla was all about. *Let's just say that I think Stephanie Meyers needs to be slapped repeatedly.*



Now, now, hold your horses. While she wrote some bad books, you can't deny she's a very smart person; she researched the market, saw that all those vampires are hip, and decided to write a story knowing teenagers will flip out into madness, and buy her book. I don't think she's complaining with all those money on her bank account, and truth be told, neither would we (although we'd prefer to earn it from some better story).


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## Schrody (Feb 1, 2014)

Blade said:


> I could go with that, 'serious' does have a sort of grim, static tone about it that does not really fit the issue.
> 
> I like to think of it being like playing in a sandbox when you are about five or so. There is intense absorption in the project at hand but it is also fun.



Yes, if you acknowledge yourself as a sandbox player/castle builder, and not pretending you're some undercover agent.


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## The Tourist (Feb 1, 2014)

Schrody said:


> What's that?



A warning nipple is old 1960s biker slang for the protuberance on the end of a motorcycle foot-peg.  It  makes a scraping sound when touched to the pavement in a deep, high speed curve.  They are placed so that they are the first thing to drag, giving the rider a warning before he levers the rear wheel off the ground.

Due to the lack of testosterone in the modern world, these items are now known as "wear pegs."  You must realize that I was nineteen when I patched, and we all just liked to say "nipple."


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 1, 2014)

Blade said:


> I could go with that, 'serious' does have a sort of grim, static tone about it that does not really fit the issue.
> 
> I like to think of it being like playing in a sandbox when you are about five or so. There is intense absorption in the project at hand but it is also fun.



YES!!! That is exactly what I mean. I couldn't really find a way to describe what I was talking about. It's the _fun of it_ that makes me unable to really take myself seriously.

The example of the surfer given earlier is an example of someone taking themselves TOO seriously. To me, from the description of the conversation, the surfer loved his sport...but he was no longer having any _fun_ doing it.


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 1, 2014)

Schrody said:


> Now, now, hold your horses. While she wrote some bad books, you can't deny she's a very smart person; she researched the market, saw that all those vampires are hip, and decided to write a story knowing teenagers will flip out into madness, and buy her book. I don't think she's complaining with all those money on her bank account, and truth be told, neither would we (although we'd prefer to earn it from some better story).



I don't think she's complaining either. 

But that doesn't make me want to cuff her upside the head any less. The books went well beyond bad, yet sold millions.


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## Schrody (Feb 1, 2014)

The Tourist said:


> A warning nipple is old 1960s biker slang for the protuberance on the end of a motorcycle foot-peg.  It  makes a scraping sound when touched to the pavement in a deep, high speed curve.  They are placed so that they are the first thing to drag, giving the rider a warning before he levers the rear wheel off the ground.
> 
> Due to the lack of testosterone in the modern world, these items are now known as "wear pegs."  You must realize that I was nineteen when I patched, and we all just liked to say "nipple."



He he nipple  It kinda remind you of nipple 



T.S.Bpwman said:


> I don't think she's complaining either.
> 
> But that doesn't make me want to cuff her upside the head any less. The books went well beyond bad, yet sold millions.



Aren't you overreacting a little bit? Yes, she wrote terrible books. Yes, all those teenagers who read her books are little more stupid than they were before. Still,I wish her luck. There's no reason for me to hate her. She's gonna be past in a year or two. That kind of writers have short time of popularity.


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## The Tourist (Feb 1, 2014)

Schrody said:


> She's gonna be past in a year or two. That kind of writers have short time of popularity.



Schrody, clearly you are a woman of letters and a student of history.  To your comment, let me remind you of a parallel example.

As you know, successful generals returning to Rome always paraded through the streets with the spoils of war.  It's where the Arc of Triumph concept derives.

But in the general's chariot they always placed a slave who whispered in his ear...


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## Schrody (Feb 1, 2014)

The Tourist said:


> Schrody, clearly you are a woman of letters and a student of history.



What? No. But I like history. 



The Tourist said:


> To your comment, let me remind you of a parallel example.
> 
> As you know, successful generals returning to Rome always paraded through the streets with the spoils of war.  It's where the Arc of Triumph concept derives.
> 
> But in the general's chariot they always placed a slave who whispered in his ear...



Interesting comparison.


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## J Anfinson (Feb 1, 2014)

Am I a writer? That I don't know. What I do know is that I get satisfaction from turning my daydreams into a written story. If other people like those stories it makes me feel good, if they don't then I had fun anyway. If I ever get paid for it it'll only be a bonus.


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## Schrody (Feb 1, 2014)

J Anfinson said:


> Am I a writer? That I don't know. What I do know is that I get satisfaction from turning my daydreams into a written story. *If other people like those stories it makes me feel good, if they don't then I had fun anyway. If I ever get paid for it it'll only be a bonus.*



My thoughts too.


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## dither (Feb 1, 2014)

Schrody said:


> My thoughts too.




Yup!
And mine.
Great thread by the way.


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 2, 2014)

Schrody said:


> He he nipple  It kinda remind you of nipple
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't you overreacting a little bit? Yes, she wrote terrible books. Yes, all those teenagers who read her books are little more stupid than they were before. Still,I wish her luck. There's no reason for me to hate her. She's gonna be past in a year or two. That kind of writers have short time of popularity.



My comment about her needing to be slapped isn't a really serious one. So, no. No overreaction.I don't have any hate for her. Hell..I wish I could write drivel and make a couple of million bucks like she has.


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 2, 2014)

dither said:


> Yup!
> And mine.
> Great thread by the way.



I think it's great too. And not just because I started it. LOL

Like I stated earlier on...I enjoy seeing how other writers think.


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## The Tourist (Feb 2, 2014)

T.S.Bpwman said:


> Like I stated earlier on...I enjoy seeing how other writers think.



I adhere to the philosophy, _"I love mankind, it's the people I can't stand."_

I also like to observe people, not just writers.  I find surprising things in life in the oddest places.  For example, as a young boy the thing that surprised me about bikers was their ability to be true tough guys, but then use an air-brush and create the most beautiful paint jobs I had ever seen.  I didn't know what the word "dichotomy" meant at that age, but I felt it.

In coming to this forum I have met some creative people that just chill me to the bone.  The poets here are some of the most insightful people I know.  Not just as writers, but as engaged and observant citizens in a society gone insane.  It's no secret, but Pandora can make me cry--real tears.

Then again, you don't have to be Fellini to see clowns.  Some of the worst, crippled and dead weight prose I have ever read has also been posted here.  It used to make me irritable and somewhat jaded, but I try to tell myself perhaps it's just their first draft in a world heretofore unknown.  Many times I'm wrong, there really are hacks that walk among us.

So, I'd like to focus on the people, some of whom are writers, not the other way around.  I've found some talented craftsmen on knife forums, guys who bend and polish steel with the same brilliance we formulate sentences.  There is genius in the world, this is just our personal slice.


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 2, 2014)

The Tourist said:


> *  Many times I'm wrong, there really are hacks that walk among us.*



But...and this is a part of what I was referring to when I started the thread...I would actually consider myself among the "hacks" at this point because of my lack of skill. That is a sizable portion of my inability to take myself seriously. Not the whole reason...or even the largest part...but a sizable part nonetheless.


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## The Tourist (Feb 2, 2014)

T.S.Bpwman said:


> I would actually consider myself among the "hacks" at this point because of my lack of skill.



Actually, I would argue that you are not. Let me explain.

Being a hack shoveling ignorant drek is akin to having spinach in your teeth on a blind date.  Everyone knows it--but you.

If you dispassionately admit that your writing needs work, you're hardy a hack, just a guy like the rest of us trying to improve.  Let me draw you an analogy.

I'm a polisher, and the old togishi craftsmen of Japan referred to the occupation as "the curse."  The thought process was that once you start down the road to refine something, where does it ever end?  The human hand will never create perfection.  Every knife I have ever polished shows me a gaping error upon re-examination.  My book is worse.

The real hacks think they're Shakespeare.  They create a plethora of Mary Sues, amid a zombie plague that somehow renders all the female characters lithe and buxom.  The lead character is always a former spec-ops, super secret, trained mercenary with enough black belts to crepe a celebrity funeral, while the final scene has him shacked up with an Olympic archer.  Five will get you ten that she is portrayed by a Charlize Theron wannabee, buffed for the role to be a strong female lead.  That's a true hack.

These guys heat their homes by burning skid pallets of rejection slips, then rage that no one understands their vision.  I don't think that's you.


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 2, 2014)

Heh. Point taken. LOL

That's definitely not me. I haven't sent the manuscript out even once yet. Much less enough times to get a pallet full of rejections. *grin*

I do see what you mean. And according to the reviews (here and elsewhere) I have gotten so far, although the reviewers really _don't_ quite get what I'm trying to do, the story itself is actually pretty good. My execution of it seems to be what is lacking a bit.

Not that it's really all that surprising to me. I was just getting into High School when I stopped writing. 25 years is a pretty good span of inactivity. The ole prose producing part of my brain got very rusty.

Back to the "serious" part of the thread. I honestly think that I can be a serious writer without having to take _myself_ too seriously. I recently watched a 2011 interview Neil Gaiman did on a late night talk show and he seems to be just a regular dude who has a real blast doing what he does for a living. That's what I strive to be. I suppose there are worse things for a fella to aim for.


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## Schrody (Feb 2, 2014)

T.S.Bpwman said:


> My comment about her needing to be slapped isn't a really serious one. So, no. No overreaction.I don't have any hate for her. Hell..I wish I could write drivel and make a couple of million bucks like she has.



I know you weren't serious (and how could you not be serious on serious topic?  ), but it sounded like you really... dislike her. Forget her, concentrate on your writing.


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## WriterJohnB (Feb 2, 2014)

I don't hesitate to call myself as a writer, because I'm passionate about writing and editing. I submit novels to agents, sell stories to magazines, I've self-published and traditionally published, edited many novels for others and done all the other things that people in this craft do. I honed my skills for nearly 10 years in a very professional writers group before ever submitting my work to any markets. I may not be famous, but I'm serious about writing and expect others to take me seriously. 

JohnB


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## The Tourist (Feb 2, 2014)

T.S.Bpwman said:


> Heh.I honestly think that I can be a serious writer without having to take _myself_ too seriously.



This might come to you as a real shock, but I never take anything serious.  The exception is work, clients depend on it.

I do think there are standards of behavior, then again, that's old school.  If I was to apply an urgency in my writing it would be that the antics, lusts and responses of my lead character derive from the unvarnished views of a life lived.

As most of you know, one of the lost characters of my book is an acerbic monarch.  Living only as pampered and cloistered, her verbiage and actions are a cartoonish rendition of how she thinks mankind actually functions.  She is based upon a real person, one I dearly loved, and finally quit pursuing--more like yanking a fetid harpoon out of my soul than merely leaving a woman.

That's a dead serious mindset to bring to writing.  But there's also humor used as social commentary.

My only literary dilemma is her looks.  Do you think Charlize Theron could get buff?  I hear that women can enhance their pectoral muscles by utilizing draw strength exercises with a bow of aggressive poundage.  Has that been done before?

So much for seriousness...


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## spartan928 (Feb 2, 2014)

"I'm a writer" - used to define an aspect of who you are to other people.
"I write" - Something you produce. Something you do. Something that exists now that didn't exist before and you created it.

To me, whether I can say the second thing is the only thing that matters. It's the only thing that's real and if I don't focus on that simple thing, all else becomes a distraction. Write first, figure out why later is where I'm at these days. If the IRS ever considers me a writer, I just may too.


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 2, 2014)

The Tourist said:


> This might come to you as a real shock, but I never take anything serious.  The exception is work, clients depend on it.



*GASP* The hell you say! LOL

I agree about the standards of behavior. But I think those apply no matter what your chosen profession is.

I am one that takes only a few things in life seriously. My job, which I always do to the best of my ability, and my family are the main two. Most other things, I don't take very seriously. I had a couple of people from a religious group (I won't mention which one) stop by my residence yesterday. One of the things they wanted to speak to me about was the "happenings" in the world. They asked me if I was concerned and I told them no. When they asked why, I simply told that since there is nothing I can do about those "happenings" there is no point in me getting upset or even being concerned about them. I worry about what I can actually control and have an effect on. Everything else...*shrug*

They looked at me like I had grown a second head. I got a pretty good grin out of that.


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## The Tourist (Feb 2, 2014)

T.S.Bpwman said:


> I agree about the standards of behavior. But I think those apply no matter what your chosen profession is.



Obviously you've never met a State of Wisconsin employee.  Half the reason we got the license to carry firearms was that these goldbricks will only do actual work at gunpoint.  

(I'm not kidding.  I got a job as a bill collect for the UW Hospital.  The reason that I was hired was that I worked in the private sector.  The debts were so severe and the return rate so poor that the Director of Personnel decided to just get outsiders who knew how to function.  That's a disgrace.)

I never forget this when I polish a knife.  An EMT might need that very edge to cut my wife out of a burning car.

Ask yourself this if you ever eat fugu.  Would you eat it with gusto if the chef sharpened his yanagiba on a Chefs Choice?


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 2, 2014)

*double post*


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 2, 2014)

The Tourist said:


> Obviously you've never met a State of Wisconsin employee.  Half the reason we got the license to carry firearms was that these goldbricks will only do actual work at gunpoint.
> 
> (I'm not kidding.  I got a job as a bill collect for the UW Hospital.  The reason that I was hired was that I worked in the private sector.  The debts were so severe and the return rate so poor that the Director of Personnel decided to just get outsiders who knew how to function.  That's a disgrace.)
> 
> ...



I haven't met any from Wisconsin, but I have known a bunch from Michigan and I know how they operate. 

As far as the fugu...I will properly answer that once I figure out what the heck that and the yanagiba are. LOL


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## The Tourist (Feb 2, 2014)

T.S.Bpwman said:


> As far as the fugu...I will properly answer that once I figure out what the heck that and the yanagiba are.



"Fugu" is the Japanese name for puffer fish.  It has organs that are toxic.  The yanagiba is an incredibly sharp knife used by a sushi or sashimi chef.

The idea is to slice close enough to the poisonous glands to give the diner a slight euphoric sensation, but not kill him.  It is a precise process, and polishing such a knife is not a job I would take with a cavalier attitude.  It might take me a day or two to prepare a five or six inch blade.  This is something you do an 1/8 inch at a time.  In fact, the sides are not even ground the same.  One side has a blade road, flat to the shinogi line, and the obverse side has a slight hollow grind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yanagi_ba

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=puffer+fish&qpvt=puffer+fish&FORM=IGRE


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## Blade (Feb 2, 2014)

T.S.Bpwman said:


> They looked at me like I had grown a second head. I got a pretty good grin out of that.



They appear to be victims of 'serious'. Describing a  feature of their world which they seem to assume is transferable.:beaten:


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 3, 2014)

Blade said:


> They appear to be victims of 'serious'. Describing a  feature of their world which they seem to assume is transferable.:beaten:



Hah! They DEFINITELY took themselves seriously. LOL


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## The Tourist (Feb 3, 2014)

Well, my wife and I even have disagreements on my participation on this forum.  Let me explain.

Bikers and gun nuts she gets, but she tends to view the usual "Bohemian, goth, poetry spewing, beret wearing nutcase as almost a predatory species.  She knows I talk to some of the women here, which I think fuels her displeasure, but frankly I think some of the more artsy-fartsy types are a half-bubble off  plumb myself.

However, I had to take art classes in college for my major, and I met your usual stripe of starving geniuses and ragamuffin hippies that seemed to evolve/devolve out of the 1950s "beat movement."  When you realize that some of the campus buildings were burned during the protestor riots, an addled street musician seems rather tame.

However, they took themselves seriously, to their detriment.  They viewed themselves as a savior to mankind.  In fact, the first time I heard the lyrics from "Bat Out Of Hell" (_"baby you're thing in this ol' world that's pure and good and right"_) I thought about the artists I've met and the slavish absolutes they desire.  If you ain't wit 'em, you're agin 'em.

I think the real benefit of all this gray hair is an internal, yet selective, BS meter.  There's a time for mindless fun.  There's a time for serious craft.  There's a time to flirt and be silly.  And there's a time to square your shoulders and take no prisoners.

Half the reason I'm here is research and for a lark.  I cannot say I am "serious" when writing is a hobby.  And frankly, I'm not sure I trust the entire genre of artists.  But when I write, I write.  When I polish, I polish.  And when the sun finally appears, you'll know why I am The Tourist.  I'll be out "there" touring, not "here" writing...

That's what I'm serious about.


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 3, 2014)

Well said, sir.


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