# Just A Tad Overwhelmed...



## RadicalDani

I'm so very very VERY (think I should add another "very" to this sentence...) new to the idea and world of publishing. For one, I never had enough confidence in my own work. I've been writing novels, since I was a teen, I'm age 30 now. But, my novels have always been my own private entertainment, shared only with friends and family, then long forgotten or deleted from my hard-drive. 
But this year, I got swept up in this idea of "I'm going to do something new and awesome and actually try to get one of my novels published! Hooray me!"... and now, I'm feeling just a little overwhelmed, like a kid who's waiting to get a "we love you and you got in!" letter from college. Which, I never had that experience, because I went the community college route... but I digress... 

There's a lot of conflicting information out there, which isn't making things any easier for me... Some sites say that I need a literary agent, if I EVER expect to get published. And a few sites say, that I do not. And some sites say that my query letter should be no longer than one page, while others say it should be a fourteen page proposal. Then, it's the question of getting published by a publishing house versus self-publishing. I want to be published the old-fashioned way, by a publisher... Yet, I hear that publishing houses take most of your money and can sell your rights to movie makers at will... Not sure if that's true, and not sure if my work would ever be considered movie-worthy, but I don't like that idea nonetheless! And then I'm not crazy about self-publishing, as I was told that's considered the "kiss of death" in the literary world... meaning that my stuff wasn't good enough to be published by a known company, but that I had to buy my way into print. I don't like that idea either! #-o

So... I'm not sure what I'm doing here! What's true or not true or if I'm "doing it" right. I'm aimlessly sending out one page queries to publishes, crossing my fingers, and hoping for the best. And I worry that my query letter isn't good enough... even though I had rewritten it about six times! 

Well, my life isn't riding on this whole idea of being a published writer. I mean, I would LOVE it and my heart would soar, if I make it to that status. But, I'm a blogger/slacker at heart and I'm not going to crumble if I get thirteen "no"s from the thirteen queries I have sent out. It will sting, of course, but I'll live. However...the thing that freaks me out the most is, I would hate to be shot down without at least one of those publishing houses giving me a fair shot and asking to at least READ my manuscript. I rather a person reads at least the first few pages and then tell me it's crap, than to toss away my idea without doing that first. 

I do have a question in here, somewhere along my long ranting... Oh, yes... found it! My question is: When it comes to a first time writer, which one is a publisher more apt to pay attention to and not toss into the "circular file", a query or a fourteen page proposal?
I worry that maybe my one page of what my book is about, it's plot and characters, and a mention of a sequel in wait isn't enough information. I mean, this novel is 90,000 words and I'm not sure I did it justice with just a few paragraphs.
And sorry, if this question was already asked... I have a low attention span on searching the forum. :-\"


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## Sam

Most publishing houses will ask for a cover letter, a synopsis, and the first three chapters of your novel. The cover letter is basically like the blurb of your book. This is where you attempt to snag the publisher's attention with a catchy opening paragraph. Your first paragraph should not be about who you are, what your past publications are, or anything else. You should dive right in and begin with something like: 

_Dear Mr/Ms Publisher, 

Have you ever wondered what a cave in South America, an age-old legend of the Illuminati, and a mysterious archaeological find in Peru have in common? If so, THE LOST TREASURE should pique your interest._

Now go ahead and give a little more information about the novel. The central theme. Perhaps something about one of the main characters. But keep it short. Your cover/query letter should only be *one* page. It's the _synopsis _which is sometimes longer. The first paragraph should be the longest. Maybe six or seven lines, but no more. 

In the second paragraph you give the details of the novel. How many words, what genre, and then you put in a brief account of your writing history. Got any publications in magazines or newspapers? Put them in here. If you haven't, *don't* make anything up. You may see people advising authors to tell a white lie and make up a publication. This is unprofessional, and publishers will, contrary to popular opinion, check to see if you were published in _The New York Times. _If they find you haven't, that's even more incentive to chuck your query in the bin. 

The final paragraph is where you thank the publisher for their time and let them know that you've included a self-addressed stamped envelope for their return letter or the return of your first three chapters. If you don't require them returned, mention this in the letter. But most publishing houses will send their response via mail. Some will telephone you. It depends on the publisher. But always send them the SASE for their convenience. 

Now, if the house in question asks for a synopsis as well as your cover letter, this is where you outline everything which happens in your novel. Everything. How it begins, how it ends, and the journey to and from those points. But it's an _outline. _It should only be two pages maximum. Not fourteen. I don't know where that person got that number from. No publisher has time to read a fourteen-page synopsis of a novel. In fact, if they see such a massive synopsis they'll probably chuck everything in the bin on principle. So you condense it. That's why it's so hard to get accepted for publication. It's easy enough to write the blasted novel, but the query letter and synopsis is the hardest part. A good rule is one paragraph for every major event in your novel. Maybe two if it's a longer sequence. 

When you finish that, print out your first three chapters (if that's what the house specifies) and attach everything with a paper clip. *Not** staples*. Some publishers like to be able to remove the individual sheets and mess around with them. That's why it's important to have a running header across the top with your name, the novel name, and the page number. Then, send everything to the address and wait for a reply. 

Make sure there are no mistakes. A query letter with mistakes is an immediate red flag. They'll say that if you can't write an important letter without mistakes, you can't write a novel without them. So proof read, have an English teacher read over it, whatever it takes. Just make sure it's devoid of mistakes. And pay close attention to the specifications. Each publishing house has specific rules for sending queries. Obey them, and make sure that the publishing house you're sending to accepts novels written in your genre. You'd think that would go without saying, but more people get rejected because they didn't read the fine print. 

After that, it's all down to getting a publisher who likes what you've written. You will be rejected. Not a doubt in the world. You may be rejected more than once. Stephen King? 79 times. JK Rowling? 58. It's not because you're a bad writer or anything like that. The best authors of our time have been rejected at one point or another. You just have to keep sending and not take it to heart. 

In the end, it's about perseverance.


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## Shirley S. Bracken

RadicalDani, you brought up a lot of questions that I hoped to read in this forum.  (it's good to be in a forum where people can actually spell and use correct English  )  
SamW, I appreciate all the information that you have given here.  I am like Rad, very new to this.  I, however, am not even close to seeking out a publisher.  I just need some advice on a few things.  I will start my own thread when I am ready to ask my questions.  Again, I appreciate the time you have given to this forum.  I am spending time in the existing threads and am finding a lot of my answers there.


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## Gumby

Wonderful response Sam, thank you so much for outlining the whole process and taking the time to explain things as you go along.


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## Ilasir Maroa

What Sam has said is generally true for submitting direct to a publisher.  However, many, many publishers do not take unsolcitied submissions.  Most of the big houses in the US do not, and many in the UK won't either.  There are a lot of smaller presses that do, though, if that's your target.

The first step to submitting to anyone, small press, large publishing house, or agent is always the same:  Read the submission guidelines.  Every publisher or agent has their own idea of what works best in query or cover letter.  Be sure that you know the basic genre of your novel and that you are submitting it to agents who rep that genre, or publishers/imprints who publish that genre.

If you are approaching agents, you will send a query letter, possibly with the first three to five pages of your novel.  The point of the query letter is to hook the agent.  There are a lot of good blogs out there explaining the basics of a query letter.  I would personally recommend Query Shark, because it is run by a very well-known agent--Janet Reid--and because it has almost two hundred examples of query letters and why they didn't work for this particular agent.

If you are approaching publishers directly--probably small press publishers--then Sam's explanation of a cover letter and synopsis is a decent start.

As far as fourteen pages, I have the feeling you accidentally stumbled across a site about non-fiction, where writers mostly submit on proposal, and thus a more detailed synopsis is necessary to judge the book.

As far as publishers taking your money or selling your rights:  Publishers cannot sell your movie writes unless your contract stipulates that you turn over those rights.  It is far more likely that you will retain those rights, and if you have an agent, they may attempt to sell those rights for you.  On the subject of money, you will recieve some form of advance based on how well your publisher believes the book will do.  If you go with a small press, that advance is likely to be rather small.  If you go with a big publishing house, that advance could be anywhere from $1000-$10000 for a debut author.  An advance is an "advance against royalties", which means that you will not start earning royalties until you have earned back the advance for your publisher.  Royalties are generally 10% off the cover price for hardback, and 15% of the cover price for paperback. If you have an agent, they will get 15% of your advance and royalties--assuming your advance earns out, which many do not, and then they would of course only recieve the 15% off the advance.  The publisher pays you royalties on books sold to the store/distributor, which means that these books aren't actally sold.  The bookstore reserves the right to return any extra copies for a full refund.  They do this by stripping off the cover to return, and then the books are pulped.  In order to account for the likelihood of returns, your publisher keeps a "reserve against returns" of about 15% of your royalties, which will only be paid out after they know how many copies actually sold to customers.

This may seem like you are getting the short end of the stick, but you are not.  Not only are you far more likely to sell a lot of copies with a publisher, but no one is going to make a great deal of profit off your book.  There is a fixed cost of about $2 for the physical production of the book, plus the staff at the publisher must be paid before they can begin counting sales as profit.  When the publisher sells physical copies to the bookstore, they must sell the book to the store at 50% cover price, or else the bookseller will not make any money.  Assuming a (relatively high) cover price of about $30 for the hardback, You are making $4.50 gross earnings.  Most books put out by a publisher sell between 5,000 and 25,000 copies.  (You have to subtract you agents 15% and the 15% reserve against returns mentioned above.  Then, taxes! )



Now for the self-publishing numbers:  You will probably hear a lot of exceptions and "success stories", but the average self-published novel sells at most 100-200 copies, and 2,000 is considered a great success.  You will have to spend a great deal of time doing your own marketing.  You will have to accept all the risk, and pay all the costs out of pocket.  For a professional looking final product print-wise, this will put you out quite a bit of money.  Most stores will not stock your books.  You will have to arrange any publicity events yourself.  You will have to find someone to do cover design, pay a freelance editor or "book doctor", many of whom can be extremely sketchy.  You will need to pay for printing as well, which can be expensive.  You'll need a website and an e-mail so people can dicover and contact you,, as well.

The other route is to publish in e-book format only.  There are several good companies who will convert your manuscript to the proper format at realtively low cost, and provide other services, suchas stock art for cover design, etc.  You can put your book up on Amazon, and you'll probably get between 10 -100 sales from people who decided to drop your book onto their Kindle for a look.  The best price-point for e-books right now is between $.99 and $5.99.  If you price your e-book above $9.99, your potential sales will plummet, especially for an unknown, self-published author.


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## Shirley S. Bracken

Phew... overwhelming but much appreciated!


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## RadicalDani

@ Sam - Thanks so much! You've actually took a huge weight off of my shoulders, because I was worried that my query wasn't written well or in the right format. But I have done all that you have listed, thus far... my letter jumps right into the name of the story, the plot, the characters, and so on. And then list how many words the novel is (90,000), and a short paragraph on me and my religious background, which plays a part on why and how I have written this book. So, at least I got the query right. And I made sure to proof read it and had two friends read over it, for spelling errors... they're not English professors (I don't know any), but they are very anal about good spelling in general. They catch me on all of my typos in IMs and texting, so...
But, I'm rambling. What I mean to say is thanks and I'm copying and saving your response, as it's very helpful. I think I should check and see if some of these publishing houses will accept three pages or a few chapters of my manuscript. I know that a few have expressed on their main site, "no unsolicited manuscripts, without an agent"! But stated that a one page query was cool... and a few I assume that a one page would be cool, after seeing that "no dogs allowed" sign posted. 

Though, I really don't want an agent and trying to make it without one, on my first tries. And I have to agree... writing the query is SO much harder than writing the actual novel... I wonder why that is. It's just one page, versus 230+ pages.. Oh, and thanks for clarifying that it's not suppose to be a fourteen page proposal. I gave up on that idea, before even attempting it, as I would go crazy trying to sell my story for the length on fourteen pages! Two pages seem more sane and I'm glad I went with my gut on that one. ;-)

@ Ilasir -Yeah, I mirror Shirley's sentiments, a lot overwhelming but much appreciated about the money side of things. At least I'll have some idea on what goes on, and less worried about movie rights and such. And I'm more sure now that I rather not go the self-publishing route. I don't have the promotional skill, time, or money for it. :-/


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## Shirley S. Bracken

Hoo!  I'm getting addicted to this forum.


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## RadicalDani

I'm also doubling back to point out (since I forgot to mention it earlier)... I'm not into writing novels for money. I know, "BOO", very liberal of me. But it's true, I really want to get published for vanity sake. I want to prove to myself that my writing is good. HOWEVER, the thought of someone making money off my hard work and I'm not getting a piece of that pie, sickens me. I may not be writing for money, but I'm also a selfish child... I don't want Timmy to get the bigger slice than I do. Otherwise, I'd rather post all of my work online for free and no one gets paid, "nah-nah". 

But all of that aside, I really appreciate the help and tips. I'm so lost and my only goal is to be able to point to a book in a bookstore and say to random strangers, "Hey, I wrote that." 

@ Shirley - LOL! I am a little addicted too! This is my FIRST writer's forum I've ever decided to join and it's so helpful! :-D


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## Ilasir Maroa

I'm curious as to why you don't want an agent...  Do you know a lot about contract law and the publishing industry?

Do you know who publishes what, and what trends various publishers and imprints are liking at the moment?

I'm not trying to say you _must_ have an agent, but if you're going to try this without one, there are a lot more factors you're going to have to be aware of.

For instance, is 90,000 words in the normal range for your age category and genre?  How common are sequels/series?  Do you know the major publishers who work in your genre?  Have you looked into the type of books they've been publishing lately?  etc...


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## TheFuhrer02

I... I am god-smacked.

Finally, the thread I've been searching for. A ton of thanks to the lot of info being displayed here, even if I live in the Philippines and all the publishers I know are abroad.


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## RadicalDani

Well, I'll answer your question, Ilasir... I don't like the idea of paying someone ten percent for sending in a query letter and such, under their name and street-cred. I know, agents probably do more than that... maybe. lol. I'm just a little cynical about hiring a mouth-piece for myself... maybe I'm a lot prideful too and don't like to ask for help too much, if I feel like I can handle it myself. It may be just my character flaw... or maybe I took Stephen King's rant to heart, as he often use to preached that agents are as good as you can toss them. Or maybe I like doing things the hard way, when I get in my stubborn mood. I don't know... I just don't feel right about rushing to get agent at this time. Maybe after being rejected like crazy and smacked around a bit in the market, I'll change my mind. But... for now, I'm trying to do this Han's style... solo (some geeky humor there). =p

But, to tell you the truth, I'm not sure what my book would be marketed under... it's a very unique idea and plot, and not anything that has been done before. Completely fiction, but with some actual religious facts mixed in, not unlike Dan Brown's style of writing... but not the same level of that good author, of course. Plus, I'm a edgier type person, so my writing style and characters aren't as elegant as Dan Brown's. And also my plot isn't a "let's make a conspiracy against Christianity" type of thing either. It fits in with mystery, thriller/action, science-fiction, and horror at the same time. So, I've been sending to publishing houses that have listed that they're interested in horror, sci-fi, mystery, and thrillers. I know that my novel is a bit short for a thriller, as that's 100,000+, but that's as far as I could write the first book. It ended there and I couldn't beat a dead horse to move on further, without cheapening it with "fillers". Still, it has a sequel for it, going off on another side of the original story and it's spanning towards 100,000+. So, I can't combine the two. But, that's as far as these two books will go. I have no plans for a series. I'm done with the two stories and I think they're pretty good. And thought I may give it a shot on getting it published, as I see a lot of crappy books on the bookshelves in stores, thinking "mine can't be any worse, so why not try?". 

But, I see your point, being that I'm a new kid in this literary pool and I have no idea what I'm doing! Hence the reason for this post, so I can get some helpful hints, sink or swim. It may be MORE helpful to have an agent... but, I don't wanna! I'm the type that must try things her own way, run into a brick wall a few dozen times, before I call "uncle" and try the conventional way of doing things. ;-)

Edit: Oh, and... I don't mean to sound like I have a chip, either. lol. I'm a nut and I often don't realize my aggressive tone, until after I've posted something. I actually thought it was a very good question. :-D


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## Sam

For that 10% (it's usually more like 15%) you get a person well-versed in the industry, RadicalDani. A person who knows what publishing houses to query. A person who will do their utmost to get the best deal for you because it directly affects their pocket. Plus, many of the well-known publishing houses do not accept unsolicited manuscripts. So you're limiting yourself to those that do, which is narrowing your chances of publication immediately. 

Let's say your novel retails at an even ten pounds, for convenience's sake. The publishing house takes the lion's share of the sale at 60%. The book store it's sold at takes another 20% on top of that. That leaves you with 20% to play with. But it's not even that, unfortunately. Industry standards allow a minimum of 3% to a maximum of 7.5% author royalties on the cover price of a novel. Your £10 novel thus works out at between 30-74p per book. Where does the rest of it go? The publishers, the distributors, the book stores, and finally to your agent. So there's no real benefit of not having one, because you're not going to see that extra percentage. It's going to go into someone else's pockets. Why not put it into the pocket of someone who can help you? 

You really need to know the industry if you want to go down that route, because there are an innumerable amount of scammers and shysters out there just waiting to take advantage of a first-time author. Plus, let's say your novel did get picked up and became a success. The house now wants to speak about purchasing the rights from you to make a movie. An agent will hold out for the best offer, but if you haven't got one the publishing house may try to strong-arm you into giving up the rights at a unfair price. In the end, the industry is money-driven. Money saved in one avenue is money gained in another. 

Whatever decision you make, know the pros and cons before you make it.


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## RadicalDani

Okay, Sam. Thanks. Not changing my mind on the agent stance, though. but thanks for the effort. 
Like I said, I'm not writing for profit, but for vanity. I don't mind if I don't see that extra ten percent anyways, just as long as it's not going to an agent at this point. Sure, I may be foolish, but it's my work to be foolish with. And I don't wanna agent!!! But thanks for the heads up. ;-)


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## strangedaze

I'm going to offer my two cents. If you plan on making any money whatsoever with your novel - which almost always involves publishing with a larger house - the chances of you doing so without an agent are obscenely slim. I think I saw this mentioned, but I'll repeat it: most of the places you'll want to publish your novel won't look at works seriously unless they're represented by agents. In fact, it would be a stretch to say most look at them at all. So, mathematically speaking, let's compare:

Your advance for a self-brokered deal, with the only small press that actual saw your novel, once it made it through the slush pile: $2,000, of which ou keep 100%

Your advance for a deal brokered by an agent, to a mid-sized publishing house: $15,000, of which you keep $12,750

I don't know. Your path is your path, but you should know that all those crappy books you see on the shelves are likely there because they were sold by agents to publishing houses that only take manuscripts submitted by agents. Once upon a time you could just send, say, Random House, your manuscript and expect to be taken seriously. Those days are gone.

So. Good luck, I admire your tenacity, even if I think you're doing yourself a disservice by almost certainly closing the door on big publishers.


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## Sam

Ilasir Maroa said:
			
		

> Most stores will not stock your book



At the risk of going in a direction opposite to the OP, I would like to talk about this. It's not necessarily true that most stores will not stock self-published books. I have sold almost four hundred copies of a novel using self-publishing and have done exhaustive research into the subject. There used to be a stigma attached to self-published novels but that is beginning to dissipate with time. In fact, the new wave in the publishing world is e-books and self-published novels, for the simple reason that there are no limitations. How much or how little you sell is entirely down to how willing you are to market and advertise. I'll come back to that in a minute. 

First, the notion that stores won't stock self-published novels. Yes, _some _won't, but I've been to Booksmart, Waterstones, and Hughes & Hughes in Ireland and inquired as to whether they would stock my novel. In the UK, I've visited Barnes & Noble and Easons. All of them said yes but wanted 40% of each sale. That's where the problem begins for self-publishers. Consider that Lulu charge £7.00 to print a 400-page novel. If I retail at £11, that means the book store takes £4.40 for every sale. That leaves me with a loss of £0.40 on each sale. If I retail at £12.00, the book store takes £4.80, leaving me £0.20 profit on each book, which is actually worse than what you would get with a publishing house but not much. 

Stores today are more lenient with self-publishing books. Yes, anyone can use this avenue and there's no guarantee the book will be good or even sell. But for every 100 woeful self-published novels, there's one jewel in the rough. And as long as they're getting their 40% they can afford to stock them. After all, it's not costing them anything, so they have nothing to lose. 

To come back to the marketing: The biggest end of self-publishing is knowing how to get your novel out there. I contacted local and city newspapers for my first launch. I paid for advertising space for a whole month before the launch. I even tried to get a radio interview but couldn't schedule one in time. As a result, I sold almost two hundred copies on the night and a further one hundred through word of mouth. That I made a profit is, for me, a success. But I'm under no illusions. I haven't the wherewithal to market a novel to near the same standard as a publishing house would. 

Is there a case to be made that self-publishing can be successful? Yes. Now more than ever. But I don't want to derail the thread too much unless people want to discuss it.


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## strangedaze

The 40% thing is industry-standard - it's what bookstores take off MOST books they stock, except for university presses, who tend to be 10-15%. Our store does stock SOME self-published work, but only if you go into our store personally and talk to the manager. The reason nobody wants to stock self-published stuff has to do with returns. Publishing houses have contingency plans for returned books that jives with bookstores, who want to make sure they're not stuck with a title nobody will buy.

/ off-topic.


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## Ilasir Maroa

I didn't say all stores, I said most. And, as you have mentioned, your profit margins plummet.

Also, stocking your book is costing them something. They have limited shelf-space, and your book being on it means other books can't be. While the self-publishing stigma is lower nowadays, it's still there. Bookstores take in stock by having various catalogues from publishers, and also the publisher has an employee whose job it is to sell books to the store. There's no way a store could fit even a tenth of the titles currently in print, so when you come in as a self-published author, you have to be extra impressive. I'm not saying it can't happen. Just the the chances aren't very high.

As far as jewels in the rough, I'd call 1 in 100 an optimistic estimate. And publishers don't sell jewels in the rough. They sell polished books they think they can sell. I'd give odds on 1 in 1000 or worse that a self-pubbed book is polished. (Which doesn't mean only that rare book is saleable.)

I'm not arguing dogma here.  I just think it's important to know the information before making a decision.


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## RadicalDani

Wow, okay... Sam, Ilasir, strangedaze. Thanks, I hear you, I hear everyone's two cents. The consenses is if I don't have an agent, I'm doomed to obscurity... fine. Then maybe I'm not cut out for publishing, because I don't want an agent now... my gut says no and if I do it your way now, then I feel like getting published is not worth it for me. And I think, yep... I'm gonna quit and not to try to publish a thing at all now. I got really discouraged here and feels like it may be best for me to post my work, for free, on what I do best... which is public blogs. And without a doubt, I know my work will be read and enjoyed, like I really intended it for.

At first, I thought I was gaining some good tips here, maybe they are, but... now it's just as conflicting as all of the other sites I've been to. 

@ Sam, you start out by telling me that a publishing house can't sell the rights to your book to movies, unless there is a clause in the contract stating as much. And now you're saying that the publishing houses will strong-arm people, assuming that I would eventually lose to being bullied, and then the publishing houses will rip away my rights in the end. So, which is it? Are the publishing houses apt to snatch away writing rights of others, willy-nilly? Or do they follow contracts and I have some control over my writings?

@ Ilasar, you first state that I don't "have to" have an agent, but now you're pretty much folding and saying that an agent is a must? Which is it, if I may ask?

@ stargazer - I've said a million times that I don't care about the money. I don't write for money. And again, I don't care about the money. And in case you didn't see it, I don't care about the money. BUT, I have a real issue for paying for something that I'm not 100% convinced that I need. And I feel like I don't need an agent at this time. I may be wrong, but hey... it's never too late to change my mind and get one, if needed. But for now, NO, no agents! And my whole motivation for getting published, is that I'm trying to prove to myself that I'm a real writer! That's all... I want to have that book sitting on the shelf, whenever I start to self-doubt myself, as a symbol of "Hey, don't believe that your stuff is crap anymore, because you're published crap now!" 

I don't care if the publishing house gets the extra ten percent... I don't care really about movie rights, it was just a thought anyways, as I'm not sure if my books are even movie-worthy... too much gratuitous violence and the like. And I'm sorry if I'm coming off as rude or hostile, which I don't mean to be... but I'm freaking out here and like the title of this post, I'm very overwhelmed! Basically, what I'm saying is... WITHOUT an agent, what tips do you have for me, BESIDES get an agent. If you have none, that's fine and fair. But if you do, thank you for whatever you can tell me, I appreciate it.

And I apologize to you agents, or friends of agents, or those who have family members who are agents. I feel like I stepped on some personal feelings here, without knowing it, with my objection to and downplaying an agent's career description. Sorry, if I had known that this wasn't the place for it, I'd keep my agent bigotry to myself. ;-)


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## strangedaze

well, at least you got my username right the first time. really, the advice for seeking out a publisher is the same for an agent: sell yourself to them. to do that you need a sharp query letter. that's the beginning and end of it, i'm afraid, unless you're solicited by a publisher, you have connections, or have some kind of base already established. 

the first step after writing a really sharp query letter is figuring out which publishers will take unsolicited, unagented manuscripts, and who also publish in your genre. take a look at their lists, maybe compare your book to one of theirs in your cover letter. then send your query letter and whatever other materials they need and wait for responses.


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## RadicalDani

No problem, strangedaze. 
See, I am paying attention! lol. 
Thank you, that's all I was asking. And yes, I'm well aware of which publishers will accept unagented (is that a word? not sure...) or unsolicited manuscripts or queries. Actually, I'm not sending in any manuscripts, just queries with the outline of my unique story and characters, and mentioning to them if they're interested in my work, I'll send the manuscript (full form or just the first three chapters, their choice), and including my info for them to contact me. Of coming to this forum and posting this post, I have been given tips on how a query letter should look and feel like, which already mirrors what I have written and sent out so far. So, I'm a lot relaxed on my worry (at the moment of posting this post) that at least I got the query thing right and when I get rejections, it won't be based on a letter than wasn't good enough. That's the part that worried me the most and was freaking me out, but so far... no one has said anything that I haven't already done, so that takes a load off my mind. And I thank you and the others for that, it's much appreciated.

And I don't mind if a person has the opinion that I'm dooming myself for not hiring an agent, that's a person's true perspective and that's more than fine. I happen to feel opposite is all. But, what irks me (if you can't tell so by now! lol), is when a person say one thing and then don't stand by their original opinion, changing it up in later posts to better suit an argument. I've always been in admiration in the art of debate, but if I am wrong on a opinion, I would tend to stick with that argument regardless and not change up in the middle of a stance to make myself seem more right. If this makes any sense? Not that's what you were doing, strangedaze, at all. You just happen to stumbled into the middle of something like that and I apologize if I was a bit rude in my response to you. Or spelled your username wrong the second time.

But, actually, I'm sitting on an huge idea here, with two written novels with a VERY unique story plot to it. I know that many writers want to claim, "mine is the most special" in their works, I know. But I did my research, so very hard, and no... there is no story out there, like the one I've written. The closest I came to was an obscured Japanese animation, and even that isn't so similar to mine... (though, I really liked that anime, so I want to believe that they're similar somehow). So... I want to try this without an agent first and if I don't make it my way, I'll do the conventional way. But first, Frank's way. 
That said... Don't worry about it... I am making contact with a friend of my family, which I realized I should have done first. The man wrote and published over thirty novels, without an agent, so I'm feeling a lot less overwhelmed now. So, I'll learn a little bit more from him.

But thanks for the tips, everyone.


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## strangedaze

honestly, i don't care what you do, or about debating anything. so i wasn't offended by your response. i hope you end up finding success in any case.


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## RadicalDani

Thanks, stangedaze. And sorry again about misspelling your username! :-D


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## John S Cheung

Shirley S. Bracken said:


> Hoo!  I'd getting addicted to this forum.



You are indeed. I'm glad.


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## Ilasir Maroa

You don't have to have an agent.  There are no few professional writers without agents, although many of those do employ a literary lawyer for dealing with contracts.  All I was saying in my post was that if you go the unagented route, then you have to worry abouta whole host of issues that agented writers don't.  Being an unagented writer is a very different experience than being an agented one, and I've seen very few writers who've started off the journey without an agent, however they've ended up now.

I'm not sure what the uniqueness of your story idea has to do with getting an agent, but it's good that you've found someone with experience going it alone, and I hope they can help you follow whichever route you end up on.  I look forward to seeing your work in print.


Oh, also, I'm a big anime fan, so I'd be interested in which anime you're refering to. I'm always on the lookout for recommendations.


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## Ilasir Maroa

I'm posting this in a separate post, because I'm addressing a different aspect of your question: "What can I do if I choose not to have an agent?"

The first thing you can do is read industry blogs. Find out what sort of contracts writers are getting. Learn the standard provisions inside and out. One of the major things a good agent provides is a knowledge of contract provisions and how to get you the most out of a contract. Publisher's boilerplate contracts are not ripoffs, but they aren't going to be everything you want out of a good contract.

And I'm not only talking about money. I'm talking about deadlines, extra content suc as maps for fantasy books, etc. This is also about how much say you have in cover art, if you really care about that. There are also the issues of e-book rights, foreign language rights etc. I mention these because they are often considered important by writers. If you don't really care about them, just ignore this part of the post.

You mention ou are aware of houses and imprints that accept unagented submissions. That's very good. It's important to know the industry if you plan to go it alone. If you have not already(you mention extensive research, but I really don't know exactly what that means), look at books published in your genre. Find out who published them. Find out who the editor was. If you like the book, or think it bears any similarity in terms of content or demographic to your own work, look up more books by that editor. Find out what they like, what they think sells, what they're willing to take a chance on. Develop a list of editors/imprints/small presses that you think would be a good fit to your books. See if you can find the query letters the authors wrote. Many authors post their successful queries online or allow them to be posted. This will give you an idea of what catches an editors eye. There is unfortunately a dearth of people posting cover letters etc on line. But even by just looking at queries, you can see whether you've done everything possible to make your work enticing in your submission packet.

As far as writing sci-fi/horror thrillers, I would think 100,000+ words a bit on the long side. There's a trend right now towards shorter books, though I can't say how much that will have changed in the year to two years it will take your book to hit shelves. However, it's been a long time coming, so it's something I would watch out for if I were you. I think your first book is right about the perfect length. Thrillers of that sort are running between 85,000 and 95,000 words for someone who isn't already a bestseller.

A similar book in your genre might be The _Thieves of Heaven_ by Richard Doetsch, which while not sci-fi, is a semi-religious thriller with supernatural elements.

Without knowing more about your book and your plans for pitching it, I'm limited to general tips like the above. I'm sorry I couldn't be of more help to you.


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## RadicalDani

Oh, okay Ilasir. 
Now, a literary lawyer is okay in my book. And I understand that the route I'm choosing is not an easy one. I am taking on the work of an agent, I know. But, what can I say, I've always been that type to be stubborn and want to do things on my own, if I can help it. And I was looking for some tips is all in doing it, just a friendly point in the right direction, and I'll worry about the hiccups on the journey myself.

And the rant about my work being unique was in my frustration that I know what I have is sorta good and completely different from the usual things being published. But, I'm just trying to get the right people in publishing to hear me out and see what I've done, to get a fair chance. So far, I've only gotten two rejections letter back, out of the thirteen queries I sent. And the second one gave me a clue on something.... he said that my idea didn't seem marketable at the time. And silly me, I didn't know where to turn about writing a synopsis, as I got scared off to the idea with that misinformed site that said a synopsis is suppose to be fourteen pages long... and now, from this forum and other sites that have shown that it's suppose to be one page, I have written a synopsis for my next wave of mass-mailing, so maybe I'll have better luck with that to convince them how marketable my story really is. 

Anyways, the anime is called "Blood+". But actually, my book is a lot different from it, but I like to think that it's somehow similar, even though they're direct opposites... and no vampires in my story.


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## RadicalDani

And response to your second reply... Thank you! Yes, I will take your advice about looking up contracts and such. That will be a lot useful to me, I'm sure. I have no need for some of those things, like maps (don't need them, as this isn't a fantasy book and takes place in a urban city). And yes, I don't care about e-book right or foreign languages.. whatever format the publishing house wants to sell my book in, it's cool with me. HOWEVER, I would like a little say in the cover-art, not to take over the process but to be the one to give it's final approval. And I'm not sure about deadlines, as I only have two books and they're all ready written. If you mean for the deadline of having them edited and working with a book editor, yes... I would like to set times for that. So, that part of the process I need to be able to recognize within in a contract. Or just hire an lawyer for it. ;-)

And whew... I'm glad that I'm not running low on word count. If so, that was an issue that I couldn't fix, anyhow. When I write, my stories take on a life of their own and when it ends, it ends. I never can push a story further than what it is, period. So, I'm glad that my book is right on the nose there. That's one less worry for me, I'm sure.

And sorry about being to vague about what my book is about. Because it's so unique, I'm paranoid of sharing the idea in a public forum... yet, I really wish I could, to clearly what I mean... because I can't really compare books and pick genre's accordingly, because it doesn't fit any known book or genre. Typical me, to write something that is a mirror of my basket case ways. Weird, unpredictable, and don't fit in anywhere. XD
And thanks for the hint, but "Thieve Of Heaven" doesn't match my story's genre either. It does have some minor religious mentioning in passing, like church beliefs and such, but there is no direct connection to anything religious within it. My characters don't enter a church or battle around one, nor is the plot hinged on a religious figure. I know, it's frustrating how vague I am being... and I hate doing that too. But, have to. 

But, no... you have been very helpful in this post, for sure! Thank you.


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## Sam

RadicalDani said:


> @ Sam, you start out by telling me that a publishing house can't sell the rights to your book to movies, unless there is a clause in the contract stating as much. And now you're saying that the publishing houses will strong-arm people, assuming that I would eventually lose to being bullied, and then the publishing houses will rip away my rights in the end. So, which is it? Are the publishing houses apt to snatch away writing rights of others, willy-nilly? Or do they follow contracts and I have some control over my writings?



I never said a publishing house can't sell the rights to your book to a movie producer. That was Ilasir. And I didn't say a publishing house _will _without a shadow of a doubt strong-arm you. It's a possibility they'll take advantage of you because you aren't experienced in negotiating the best deal. Look at it this way: It's like going to court and defending yourself. Because you don't know the minutiae of law, chances are the prosecution will tear you to shreds. Right? So you hire a lawyer to defend you. An agent is principally the same thing. They're there to do the nitty gritty stuff so you don't have to. 

That being said, do you need an agent? No. There are publishing houses out there which accept unagented material. Do a search for ones which specialise in your genre and find out what their specifications are. Most, as I said before, will ask for a cover letter, a synopsis, and three chapters. It varies. Some might only ask for one chapter. Now, google 'how to write a cover letter' and peruse the hits which come back. Be wary that some advice given is nonsense. For instance, I remember reading one person who advised people to lie about their previous publication history. So you need to know which ones are legitimate and which aren't. That comes with research and experience. 

When you finish your cover letter and synopsis, attach your chapters and send everything, SASE included, to the address and wait for the reply. This will take a couple of months. Maybe more. You may wish to send to more than one publishing house while you wait.


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## RadicalDani

Oh, I see. Sorry Sam, I was mistaken and thought it was you who had posted that publishing houses weren't apt to sell my work to a movie director, without it being in the contract. That was Ilasir. And that's probably more right that a house can't sell something out from under a person, without it being in a legal contract first. Don't worry... when it comes to the contract part of the process, I will hire a lawyer... not an agent, but one of my family's lawyers. And defending yourself in court is a lot different and more serious than trying to get published without an agent... but, that's just my opinion on that. ;-)
I'll try to sit on my agent-bigotry ideas at this moment... because I don't want to start another debate here....

Thanks for your kind information on queries, synopsis, and such. Especially the mention of adding a synopsis, because it made me rethink and re-look into that and now I have one written and ready for print, for my next string of mailings. And don't worry, I have already researched, viewed, and written my query as per your instructions months before ever finding this forum. And it turns out that the sources I have found on query letters were correct, as they have matched your very first post on this, to a T. And I know and practice the SASE envelope too, don't worry. ;-)

The whole point of my post was, I was a lot worried and overwhelmed about the query and the conflicting information I was finding on the subject of publishing. And I just wanted to know if I were heading in the right direction and to find out what was truth or myth from some of these sites. And now, it's all sorted out. Thank you.


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## Olly Buckle

I am in something of your position RadicalDani, I am getting on and I have a chronic immune condition that means I am certainly not looking for any extra work. I simply enjoy writing my stories and distributing them to my friends. Lately one of them has taken the position that I really should put them out there for other people to have the chance of seeing them. Given my general indolence I am thinking of putting them out as an e-book only at a minimum price, then I'll print up some flyers and give them out to my friends and anyone I see reading a Kindle on the train. I don't suppose it will ever make me rich, but it could be fun rather than a lot of effort.


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## RadicalDani

Oh, I am so sorry about your immune condition! :-(
But, I could hug you... not because of your illness, but because that's exactly my position on wanting to get published. I have always written for my family and friends... and for the longest they have been hassling me to get published.  And I always replied, "No, I'm not talented enough for that. But I'm glad that you like the story." And then they would grumble and try to nudge me more. But... then I met my best friend, two years ago, and he's been really encouraging in this arena. He's not a writer, but a very talented photographer. Well, he went off to serve the US Military this autumn and we exchange letters. And I figured, he's off doing something amazing so I would like to prove to myself that I'm not a crap writer. I wish to put my works in print, for my friends and family to enjoy. I like the idea of sending my best friend a copy of my book, while he's away at the military base for Advance Training.

So... all this talk of money, contracts, movie deals, and the like... It doesn't matter to me. I just want to see my book in print and to have copies for my friends and family. That's my motivation... it's my only motivation. If it was about money and such, I'd never bother to try getting published at all. I'm not rich, but I get by okay enough. I don't need riches from my book.
I just want it to be out there, read, and enjoyed. ;-)

And yes... I have seen the Amazon deal with e-books. It's my fall-back option, in case this whole publishing thing never works out. But first, I want to give the publishing house my best shot and effort. 
And btw... I own a Kindle. So, if you ever put your book on e-book form, let me know. I may be interested in buying. :-D


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## Shirley S. Bracken

Wow, lots of information here.  I have never considered publishing anything I've written.  Like most of you, I tend to give it away.  Publishing just seems too daunting.  I have however tried to have my art (watercolors) published.  It is probably the same difficulty level.  I am published in that arena a bit but without great effort, it just can't go very far.  I have dealt with agents before and they sold the heck out of my "product".  But be sure and talk to their other clients or like me, you will get burned!  Research your agent!!!


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## John S Cheung

It would be good if those with experience in writing and publishing undertake to take on at least one apprentice each.  The guidance would be invaluable.


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## Shirley S. Bracken

Hi John.  Actually we are all apprentices here, with many willing to guide.  But I'll be your apprentice!  You have already published two books.


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## John S Cheung

Shirley, as you know, my two books were self-published and not for sale.  Selling is a hurdle.  Getting a publisher is a big hurdle.   

This is why getting a writer-mentor who has published is a valuable learning experience.


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## KarlR

Hi Dani,

At the risk of beating this horse to death again, it sounds to me like you want two things:  1) Publication (and all the adoration, credit and notoriety that goes along with), and  2) no strings attached.  You're not the first!  The problem lies with the business model of publication.  The people who produce books are in it for the money.  Even if the authors they represent are not.  It's going to cost them some serious money to print up your masterpiece.  Then they'll have to convince the world (somehow) that you are the next JK Rowling.  That'll cost a fair bit in the marketing department.  Then there's distribution, overhead, blah, blah, blah.  In short, you are asking a for-profit business to spend MONEY on your gold-mine idea.

In return, you want nothing.  More specifically, you're offering nothing.  No rights, no futures, nothing.  I think you can see, from a business perspective, where this is going.  (That'd be 'nowhere!')

From what I have read of your intentions and desires, I believe your best bet would be to publish your story on your blog.  If you want a wider audience, print up a hundred copies on your printer at home and take them to the airport.  Leave them in an easily accessible location (on top of the newspaper racks) where they can be self-distributed.  Money doesn't matter to you?  Good.  You've just taken full responsibility for the costs of production.  Want to protect your idea?  Good.  Copyright it and send it out into the world.  Need and want more protection than that?  Then buck up and live in the world that the rest of us have to.  Give and get.  That's just how it works.

HOWEVER, if you are successful at breaking that sticky little paradigm, you can sell your experience for a cool million!  And we'll all buy the story!

Best of luck!


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## Ilasir Maroa

heh, Blood+ is actuallly a fairly well-known anime. I certainly enjoyed it.

The truth is Dani, no one is going to steal your unique idea. Most writers have tons and tons of ideas that they might never have time to actually get to. I know I have folders and folders of notes for stories I may never have the time to write. But if you feel more secure not making your premise publlic, that's up to you.


I feel obliged to warn you that a family lawyer used to dealing with general law issues is not going to be all that effective in negotiating a publishing contract.  It's just not his area of expertise.  Just like you wouldn't have an injury lawyer try a capital case, you shouldn't have someone as your literary lawyer if that is not their field.


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## The Backward OX

One other thing you absotively MUST do is check what you’ve written for glaring errors. Do NOT for example send off drivel like this:


> The final paragraph _(of the query letter)_ is where you thank the publisher for their time and let them know that you've included a self-addressed stamped envelope for their return letter or the return of your first three chapters. If you don't require them returned, mention this in the letter. But most publishing houses will send their response via mail. Some will telephone you. It depends on the publisher. But always send them the SASE for their convenience.
> 
> Now, if the house in question asks for a synopsis as well as your cover letter, this is where you outline everything which happens in your novel. Everything. How it begins, how it ends, and the journey to and from those points. But it's an _outline. _It should only be two pages maximum. Not fourteen. I don't know where that person got that number from. No publisher has time to read a fourteen-page synopsis of a novel. In fact, if they see such a massive synopsis they'll probably chuck everything in the bin on principle. So you condense it. That's why it's so hard to get accepted for publication. It's easy enough to write the blasted novel, but the query letter and synopsis is the hardest part. A good rule is one paragraph for every major event in your novel. Maybe two if it's a longer sequence.
> 
> When you finish that, print out your first three chapters (if that's what the house specifies) and attach everything with a paper clip.


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## Sam

I think your reading comprehension is worsening, OX. If the publishing house asks for three chapters, you obviously have to print three chapters. If that amounts to 60 A4 pages there's a good possibility you may want them to send that back if they reject you. So you specify that in the cover letter. If money is no obstacle, tell them that they shouldn't feel obliged to return your three chapters. But are they going to magically read them? No, you have to send them in a envelope.


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