# Who does your editing?



## The Backward OX (May 14, 2011)

I know of two members here who say they do their own editing *of their fiction.* My assumption is that they don't use paid editors. Here’s a link to one such comment:

http://www.writingforums.com/writin...thy-works-editing-critiquing.html#post1389411 

A third member has told me such behaviour is “self-destructingly arrogant”. This third member’s other words on the subject were, and I quote, “There is only one ultimate judge of your work and that is the acceptance of the reading public – not your own self-assessment.” The inference I gained, from the context in which the words were given, was that *no writer wishing to see their story on the bookstore shelves would dare submit their MS to an agent or publisher without first paying an editor to go through it with a fine-tooth comb.*

I’m on the side of the first two. So, are we self-destructingly arrogant, or just naïve? Or could it simply be that we have the courage of our convictions?

(In case you’re wondering who the second member is, it’s Mike C. I can’t find his post on the subject – prolly gone west in the recent clean-up - but if you want to ask him yourself, these days he's more easily found at AW)


----------



## Woodroam (May 14, 2011)

I write, rewrite, repeat, then read out loud into a digital recorder to make an audio copy for my grand-kids. When reading out loud I catch many more mistakes than when silently reading. I plan to have a professor of literature critique my work when it's nearly finished. I'll probably stop at that point and make my final recording for the kids.

If anyone knows of a good MFA level creative writing professor who might help, please send me your recommendation. I'm searching for the right one.


----------



## C.M. Aaron (May 14, 2011)

I have to go along with the guy who urged you to use an editor. It's not just about finding spelling and grammatical errors. An editor can also show you where you failed to properly explain something. We all use our cultural and our life experience to interpret what we read. No two people have exactly the same set of experiences, so no two people will interpret the same set of words exactly the same way. An editor can show you some of your false assumptions about how your writing will be interpreted.

Google "Book Editors" and find someone who will give you a free sample of their work. Send them five or ten pages of your manuscript. It won't cost you anything and you will see the benefit of an editor.


----------



## garza (May 14, 2011)

I've always relied on the editors where I sell what I write. They get paid to catch the nits in what I send. That does not mean I'm careless. I take the greatest care I can but in the field working against deadlines we all know that little mistakes will creep in, no matter how hard we try to put clean copy on the wire. With magazines it's a bit different. There's time for some back-and-forth 'are you sure you want to say it this way?' sort of thing. 

Do the best you can to clean up your copy. If what you write is good enough, there are paid editors who will pick out the nits you miss without complaint.

Edit - Maybe I didn't make that clear. Why should I pay an editor? The publisher already pays editors.


----------



## The Backward OX (May 14, 2011)

C.M. Aaron said:


> No two people have exactly the same set of experiences, so no two people will interpret the same set of words exactly the same way. An editor can show you some of your false assumptions about how your writing will be interpreted.


 
Yes, but…

no matter_ *how*_ the words are “adjusted”, there will *always *be a few readers who interpret them differently. You said so yourself.

So why bother?


----------



## The Backward OX (May 14, 2011)

- garza, sorry, I thought the wording of my post indicated that everyone involved was discussing fiction. To avoid any confusion, the linked WF post would make this clear.


----------



## garza (May 14, 2011)

Fiction or non-fiction, if you are going to a publisher, the publisher will have editors.

Those who are self-publishing either in print or electronically may well see the need for an independent, paid, editor. As was pointed out in several of the posts in the thread cited, novel-length works are not suitable for review in forums such as this. Baron, however, neatly showed the way around that problem so far as critiquing of style is concerned.


----------



## JosephB (May 15, 2011)

I likely won't pay someone to edit my novel before I submit it to agents. But I'm going to have someone read it to catch errors or perhaps any inconsistencies etc. She's also a discerning and intelligent reader with a deep knowledge and appreciation of good literature, so I'll listen if she has any suggestions or issues with any of it. 

I've worked very hard on my novel and writing in general, but I know my weaknesses too. No matter how hard I try, I will miss things. So to me, it just makes sense.  I don't see the decision to use someone to edit or provide input as having anything to do with "laziness."


----------



## The Backward OX (May 15, 2011)

garza, with respect, you are still missing the point. The point being, is it or is it not self-destructingly arrogant of a writer to submit their MS to a mainstream publisher's agent or a mainstream publisher without first having a paid editor look it over?


----------



## garza (May 15, 2011)

No, it's not. Writers, very successful writers, have been doing that for years. If a work, fiction or non-fiction, has value, the agent or publisher will recognise the worth of the writing, and minor blemishes will not detract from that worth. All writers must have a fair level of cheerful self-appreciation  (arrogance) or they would never have the courage to submit anything to  anyone. The only way a writer self-destructs is to write and never  submit. 

I don't know what you mean by 'mainstream publisher's agent'. All the agents I know represent writers, not publishers. Many publishers will only consider work that comes to them through an agent and many agents will not consider representing a writer who has not been published. There has always been a way around that, but few writers see it, and thus many writers who might otherwise be succesful never manage to be published.

I've heard that sometimes when an agent has agreed to represent a writer, he will suggest an editing service before sending the work on to publishers. Such a thing may be common with fiction. I've never had it happen to me. Most of my life I've dealt with one agent, not to help find a publisher but to ensure I got the best deal. Any editing was by people employed by the publishers. I started at the lowest level and wrote my way up from there, step by small step, guided by editors paid by publishers. That's how you get around the Catch 22 mentioned above.


----------



## qwertyman (May 15, 2011)

C.M. Aaron said:


> An editor can show you some of your false assumptions about how your writing will be interpreted.


 
C.M.Aaron is right. Good editors know how your writing comes off the page to the reading public, he has that experience.



			
				Ox said:
			
		

> Yes, but…no matter_ *how*_ the words are “adjusted”, there will *always *be a few readers who interpret them differently. You said so yourself.


 
The editor speaks for convention or the largest common denominator.


----------



## Candra H (May 15, 2011)

JosephB said:


> I likely won't pay someone to edit my novel before I submit it to agents. But I'm going to have someone read it to catch errors or perhaps any inconsistencies etc. She's also a discerning and intelligent reader with a deep knowledge and appreciation of good literature, so I'll listen if she has any suggestions or issues with any of it.
> 
> I've worked very hard on my novel and writing in general, but I know my weaknesses too. No matter how hard I try, I will miss things. So to me, it just makes sense. I don't see the decision to use someone to edit or provide input as having anything to do with "laziness."


 
I missed this post.

I feel the same way about my own work. When it's ready for outside input, I'll be asking a select few people to read my novel and give their thoughts and suggestions. I respect their opinions and I hope to h*ll they say yes because I cant afford to pay them so it'll be on a reciprocation basis.

Very much agree about outside input not equalling laziness on my part. If I went around believing my own work is so great I don't have to edit or take onboard others' suggestions, I would get very far. I don't do that with my art so why would I with writing? One set of eyes may have all the skill and experience in the world but they cant see everything.

So yeah, I guess my answer to Ox's question would be; no, it's not self-destructingly arrogant to submit an edited ms to a publisher. But it's also not self-destructingly arrogant to assume you don't have to _pay_ for editing help. 

I'm beginning to wonder if there isnt a bent towards extremes going on again...


----------



## The Backward OX (May 15, 2011)

Candra H said:


> it's not self-destructingly arrogant to submit an edited ms to a publisher.


 
This was never part of my proposal. I dunno how you manage to twist stuff around.:scratch:


----------



## garza (May 15, 2011)

But xO, Candra H does ask the right question: _Why would I pay someone to edit my work? 

_Publishers pay editors so I don't have to. Publishers also pay me so I can pay the rent and buy the groceries. It's a pretty good system, taken all in all.


----------



## The Backward OX (May 15, 2011)

It's a conspiracy. I give up.


----------



## garza (May 15, 2011)

xO - You asked the best question of all in the OP:_ Or could it simply be that we have the courage of our convictions?
_
We must belie_ve_ in ourselves and in our ability to put one word after another without making too many mistakes. Paying someone to edit what I write would be saying that I have no faith in what I do, that I lack, in your words, 'the courage of my convictions'. When I come to the point that I believe I need someone to edit what I write before I send it for publication, then I'll turn off the computer, put my notebooks and pencils in a drawer, and forget about writing._
_


----------



## qwertyman (May 15, 2011)

garza, you send your copy in the knowledge that an editor will look at it before it hits the page.

Would you have the same conviction about a 80,000 word novel being sent to an agent?

Moreover, I think there is something noble in self-doubt and, when it comes to publishing a novel, I can't see what's 'courageous' about sending something directly to an agent without asking a 'reader' for an opinion, (okay, garza, I know you said editor, this is a general remark) . I think it's self-destructingly arrogant, (mmmmn that rings a bell).

Ask SamW, he self-published without going to an editor first.


----------



## KarlR (May 15, 2011)

My wife is my best and most trusted editor.  Having said that, I won't let her read anything until I am convinced that it is in top form.  Experience has taught me that, regardless how good I feel the MS is when I hand it to her, it WILL come back bleeding red ink.

As for the current discussion regarding the need for an editor, look no further than Oks' post on the destructive impact of self-published e-books.


----------



## powerskris (May 15, 2011)

My editor is my writing colleague. Problem solved, for me anyways!


----------



## Sam (May 15, 2011)

qwertyman said:


> Ask SamW, he self-published without going to an editor first.



What are you asking me, Qwerty? 

Did I self-publish without going to an editor? Yes. Do I have any regrets? Most certainly not. Do I think it's 'self-destructingly arrogant' to submit a manuscript to an agent/publisher without first going to a professional editor? No, and whoever said that needs to seriously reconsider their comment. 

Editing one's work is not about the necessity of needing another set of eyes to pick out something you've missed, because chances are they'll miss it as well. It's about looking at your own work with a critical eye and accepting that it isn't perfect. If you can do that, as well as have at least a good grasp of grammar, there's no reason why you can't edit your own work. Will mistakes creep in? Of course. It's almost guaranteed. There were seven or eight in my last self-published novel. I've read published novels, however, with similar numbers of mistakes. Nobody's perfect.


----------



## JosephB (May 15, 2011)

Sam, I thought you had your last novel edited after you first published it.


----------



## JosephB (May 15, 2011)

Sam W said:


> Editing one's work is not about the necessity of needing another set of eyes to pick out something you've missed, because chances are they'll miss it as well.



That's not true for everyone. I can check and re-check a gazillion times and still miss things -- and it's not for lack of trying. Some errors become invisible to me. It would just make sense for me to have someone with a good eye review my novel for errors -- paid editor on not.


----------



## garza (May 15, 2011)

qwertyman - I have no hesitation at all sending anything to either an  agent or a publisher without prior outside editing. The only novel I've  ever written was a formula romance that ran a bit over 80,000 words. It  went straight to the publisher, and I got a cheque straight back. 

I've been writing for over 60 years and I've made my living solely by  writing for 56 years without ever using an outside editor. Does that  sound self destructive? I've never had a problem. As I say, if ever I  stop trusting my ability to prepare copy for publication, I'll stop  writing. Arrogance? Absolutely. That's often what it takes. 

Publishers have editors. Those editors are paid to pick the nits from my  copy. If the overall quality of the writing is not worth the trouble of  checking for spelling, punctuation, and grammatical errors, they will  send it back. I've never had copy sent back. Anyone who is a writer  should be able to say the same.


----------



## qwertyman (May 15, 2011)

JosephB said:


> Sam, I thought you had your last novel edited after you first published it.


 
That's the way I remember it. Am I wrong, or did you apologise for the errors to those who had bought your book before the errors had been rectified?

I think publishing without seeking the help of an editor, is self destructive and I can't think of any other reason for doing it (other than poverty) than arrogance. The arrogance of thinking you don't need it.


----------



## qwertyman (May 15, 2011)

garza said:


> qwertyman - I have no hesitation at all sending anything to either an agent or a publisher without prior outside editing. The only novel I've ever written was a formula romance that ran a bit over 80,000 words. It went straight to the publisher, and I got a cheque straight back.


 
You missed my caveat: 





			
				qwerty said:
			
		

> I can't see what's 'courageous' about sending something directly to an agent without asking a 'reader' for an opinion, (okay, garza, I know you said editor, this is a general remark) .


----------



## Sam (May 15, 2011)

qwertyman said:


> That's the way I remember it. Am I wrong, or did you apologise for the errors to those who had bought your book before the errors had been rectified?
> 
> I think publishing without seeking the help of an editor, is self destructive and I can't think of any other reason for doing it (other than poverty) than arrogance. The arrogance of thinking you don't need it.



Apologise? Does Stephen King apologise when his editor prints a manuscript with a mistake in it? Does the editor apologise? Nobody is perfect. Most people don't read for good writing, in any case. They read for a story. I sold over four hundred copies of that self-published novel and I've spoken to at least a hundred of those readers who enjoyed the story immensely. Few, if any, mentioned being ticked off by a couple of simple human errors. 

I think you're overdoing it here, Qwerty. No one said it's wrong to have an editor look over your work, but that doesn't mean it's a necessity. Thinking it's arrogant is just plain ridiculous. 

To answer the question: I had my most recent novel edited professionally. Not the first one I self-published. And the only reason I did it was because the editor came to the release of the first novel and offered me her services _pro bono_.


----------



## garza (May 15, 2011)

Qwertyman - Neither have I used a reader. And 'courage' was xO's word. I'd say I have _confidence_ in my ability or I would not write at all. And yes that confidence can be called arrogance.

Explain please how my failure to use an outside editor has been self-destructive. A local newspaper bought an article from me when I was 14, an article I'd written and edited by myself. Writing paid my way through six years at university and has continued to pay the bills through all these years. I've never had a job.  I'll soon celebrate my 71st birthday.  I've just returned from a week-long trip paid for by a publisher who wanted an article in my style, using my prior experience, on a certain situation. (Unfortunately the Bin Laden affair pushed me onto a back page, but I was paid in full nonetheless.) So please elucidate your theory of self-destruction that I might understand where I've gone wrong.


----------



## qwertyman (May 15, 2011)

Jeez, the sound of trumpet blowin' is deafnin'. (You two ain't from Jericho are you?)


For the benefit of doubt I will repeat my belief, and I am talking about fiction. 
If you self-publish without an editor's help you're asking for trouble.
If you write a 80,000 word novel without seeking a 'reader's' opinions, same thing.
So, without putting any further labels on it, that's what I believe.


----------



## Sam (May 15, 2011)

> Jeez, the sound of trumpet blowin' is deafnin'. (You two ain't from Jericho are you?)
> 
> 
> For the benefit of doubt I will repeat my belief, and I am talking about fiction.
> ...



What you believe and what matters are two disparate things. 

And for the record, I believe you're talking out of your fundament. Several self-published novels have been successful without being edited professionally. In fact, several now-published authors sent their manuscripts to agents/publishers without seeking editorial services. 

I recently sent _Dereliction of Duty_ to a publishing house and they've accepted it for publication. It will release this September in both hard-copy and e-book format. I edited it myself before sending. _Quod erat demonstrandum. _

To say you _absolutely _must use an editor or risk being 'in trouble' is therefore quite nonsensical.


----------



## garza (May 15, 2011)

Quertyman - While I've spent my life writing mostly non-fiction, my belief is that my language skills are sufficient to write fiction. Other journalists have succeeded in converting newswriting to fiction. I shall try to do the same. Our friend xO from Downunderland has convinced me that even though my imagination is limited, that's a handicap whcih can be overcome. I have been puttering about making half-hearted efforts at fiction writing for the past year or so, but now I'll get serious about it. 

Here's the deal. Just over one year from now, 30 August 2012, my 72nd birthday, I will self publish a novel of not less than 80,000 words. None of the novel will have been looked at by any reader, critic, or editor. I will be the only editor. A reasonable time after its publication I will want your opinion, and indeed the opinion of the others who have taken part in this discussion, about whether I have managed to produce a readable, fairly good, novel. 

If I have achieved that goal, then I shall ask that you set me up to a pint at the Riverside Bar the next time you are in Belize City. If on that date I have published no novel, or, having published, find the consensus to be that the novel is flawed from beginning to end from lack of proper editing, then I shall be obligated to stand you to a pint at Riverside Bar the next time you are in Belize City.

To be fair, I will not use any of my current work in progress, _Seven Miles on a Dirt Road_, but will start a new project beginning today.


----------



## Sam (May 15, 2011)

garza said:


> Quertyman - While I've spent my life writing mostly non-fiction, my belief is that my language skills are sufficient to write fiction. Other journalists have succeeded in converting newswriting to fiction. I shall try to do the same. Our friend xO from Downunderland has convinced me that even though my imagination is limited, that's a handicap whcih can be overcome. I have been puttering about making half-hearted efforts at fiction writing for the past year or so, but now I'll get serious about it.
> 
> Here's the deal. Just over one year from now, 30 August 2012, my 72nd birthday, I will self publish a novel of not less than 80,000 words. None of the novel will have been looked at by any reader, critic, or editor. I will be the only editor. A reasonable time after its publication I will want your opinion, and indeed the opinion of the others who have taken part in this discussion, about whether I have managed to produce a readable, fairly good, novel.
> 
> ...



Fair play, Garza. I will stand you to a pint of your choosing in twelve months' time if you achieve your goal. I will also purchase your novel and gladly read it. I have no doubt that not only will it be competently edited but it'll also be a worthwhile read.


----------



## Olly Buckle (May 15, 2011)

For what its worth I know a couple of people who have made a living editing, one now edits a magazine and publishes specialist books, the other is the foreign rights director for a large publisher. I have put forward the idea of doing some editing myself to both of them, a way of making a little bit of money without having to leave home. Both responded "Why not, that's how I started out." Editors are not Gods, nor are they supremely qualified, they are literate people capable of careful analytical reading, much like the more thoughtful members here. I got one of them to go through some of my work, there was not a lot to say and what there was was in the nature of suggestions. With care I don't see why one should not self edit.

One of the early posters mentioned that they caught far more reading things aloud, this is my experience also, I would thoroughly recommend it.


----------



## caelum (May 16, 2011)

I don't know if it's been said already, but I'm of the school of thought that writers should be capable of editing their own stuff to a presentable level.  Editing after the writer is to fix what they at their limit couldn't fix/find/see themselves, after however many drafts.  I don't see how third-party editing is necessary till you're aiming to publish, meaning—if it's just casual like many stories here—I don't think it's a big deal.


----------



## The Backward OX (May 16, 2011)

I'm sure you're correct. No one in their right mind is going to pay an Editor good money to fix something that's only going into a writers' forum.


----------



## caelum (May 16, 2011)

Third-party doesn't necessarily mean pay, and people do seek out extensive, free third-party edits for things going into this forum.  If the ultimate goal isn't to publish. . . I'm not of the opinion it's necessary.  That's basically what the forum does anyway, depending on the feedback, though arguably not of the same calibre as bought editing (though we do got some experienced folks).


----------



## qwertyman (May 16, 2011)

Sam W said:


> I think the fact the novel has been accepted for publication speaks loud enough. I'm not going to say anymore on the subject.


 
Dereliction of Duty has already been published. What happened to First Publishing Rights?



			
				garza said:
			
		

> Here's the deal. Just over one year from now, 30 August 2012, my 72nd birthday, I will self publish a novel of not less than 80,000 words. None of the novel will have been looked at by any reader, critic, or editor. I will be the only editor.


 
Garza, I'm sure you are more than capable of writing a cracking novel and I wish you the best of luck. But why would you want to shackle yourself by not asking someone to read it before publishing? I'd buy you a pint any day, but Belize...it's full of skeeters isn't it?


----------



## garza (May 16, 2011)

The Belizean mosquito is highly overrated, though they have become more of a problem since the Harriers were withdrawn.


----------



## qwertyman (May 16, 2011)

I heard the harriers weren't withdrawn, they were chased off by the skeeters.


----------



## The Backward OX (May 16, 2011)

Mosquitos, Harriers, what about a Spitfire or two? Or even a Yak?


----------



## garza (May 16, 2011)

qwertyman - Bad. Bad. Very bad. You should've had that edited by someone.

xO - The Yak is an unarmed trainer. You should've had that edited by someone.


----------



## The Backward OX (May 16, 2011)

garza said:


> xO - The Yak is an unarmed trainer. You should've had that edited by someone.


Yeah, right.





And I suppose that thing falling out of the plane is a can of mosquito repellent?


----------



## JosephB (May 16, 2011)

When the time comes, there are people I can ask who have published novels and sold a few books. Some people in the industry too. Six degrees of separation and all that. Common sense is a factor also. This may the last place I'd come for advice on this.


----------



## DuKane (May 17, 2011)

My wife does my editing due to my lack of grammatical skills. Like previous posts I do read out loud and would agree with all that I have found this to be very useful. Also have a few friends who read and offer their critiques.


----------



## kate_lynn (May 19, 2011)

I do. After years of editing it's become a little easier for me to be objective about my own writing (though still never possible to be completely objective). I'm a big fan of reading it aloud and recording the reading in Garageband as I go—just so that I have something to reference back to. It's easier for me to hear mistakes that way. I occasionally do that with my clients' work too, especially if it's a piece we've been going back and forth with for a while and it's become too familiar to me. Once I give it a vigorous go-through, I pass it off to another editor or writer for maximum clarity!


----------



## ProwerGirl (May 19, 2011)

I have two editors, one my elderly speech teacher, who gives me spelling and sentence structure advice and lets me see things from an older point of view, and my friend, who gives me a good overview of the characters and a viewpoint of a younger person. Then I edit it one more time before I so much as think about publishing. Really cleans up all the mistakes...


----------



## AceTachyon (May 20, 2011)

If you're asking about "editing" for structure, characterization, narrative flow, and other storytelling elements, and possibly punctuation, grammar, and spelling, prior to sending to an agent, publisher, or magazine editor, then I do my own editing. Sometimes after getting comments from a couple of other readers and going back to revise and polish. And sometimes it may come back from an editor with a note it's too long, can I cut 200 words or whatever.

If you're asking about "editing" prior to going to print (as in book or magazine, as in copyediting), then that's for the editors and copyeditors at the Publisher or magazine to take care of.

IMO, there's nothing arrogant about editing your own work.


----------



## Prinkes (May 20, 2011)

One of my very best friends. Her name is Pan. She was an English major for a bit, and she's an avid reader. Plus, she has this amazing ability to realize what I was  _trying_ to say, even when I've bungled it all up. She understands grammar and story structure and characterization. The best thing is that she's incredibly concise. She finds a way to trim my writing down without ruining the poetry of the story. We have this running joke: 

Me: Pan! I finished my novel, it's 120 pages long!
*Two hours later*
Her: Now it's 60 pages long. You're welcome. 
*And there was much rejoicing*

Of course, I also have several other people read my work as well. Sometimes I'll self-edit, but mostly what I need people for, is to read my work and see if it makes sense. I can't do that myself - of course it makes sense to me, I wrote it! But Pan is the first person I go to with a new chapter or story.


----------



## Minsc (May 29, 2011)

Currently me but that is mostly because of a lack of funds.  I'm about half way finished on a book I'm writing about my experience living with OCD.  I'm not going to have to worry about the heavy editing that would be involved in a fiction novel since it's so straightforward.  I have thought about going to a resume service since I'm basically writing a partial biography.  Of course that would just focus on displaying personal positive expects to appeal to an employer but I think it also aids in developing writing skills.


----------

