# All Things Rejection!



## Tiamat

Ever need to vent, whine, cry, blow off some steam, or just smash your forehead against the keyboard a few times because nobody appreciates your particular brand of genius? I know I do, though genius isn't exactly a word I'd apply to myself or my writing. Either way, I wanted to create a thread to give you (and myself) that chance. Share your rejections here--the bland form rejections, the personal insults, or the close-but-no-cigar rejections.

The most scathing rejection letter I've ever gotten: 

"This is utterly unoriginal, isn't it?"

That was from an agent about the first novel I ever wrote. (Turns out, that agent was not wrong, but that didn't keep the words from smarting a bit at the time.)

Today I got the quickest rejection I've ever gotten. A one-day turnaround so I barely had time to get my hopes up. Probs better that way though! It lets me move on more quickly.

What about you? Share your rejections, friends!


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## luckyscars

Tiamat said:


> The most scathing rejection letter I've ever gotten:
> 
> "This is utterly unoriginal, isn't it?"
> 
> That was from an agent about the first novel I ever wrote. (Turns out, that agent was not wrong, but that didn't keep the words from smarting a bit at the time.



Possibly off-topic but I have to say...that agent is/was a dick-bag and I would consider that a bullet dodged.

Rejections should be either straight up "thanks but no thanks" type stuff or offer feedback. If the latter, that feedback should be something useful to the writer. Otherwise it's just standard troll and deeply unprofessional.

If he/she had said _what _was 'utterly unoriginal' that would be different, but they didn't. Calling something 'utterly unoriginal' doesn't help the writer in any possible way other than to discourage them and agents should not be in the business of discouraging writers from writing _regardless _of their feelings about the submission.

So, fuck that guy.


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## luckyscars

I also think one-day turnaround rejections are more a reflection of the agent than the writing, a lot of the time. What probably happened is they glanced at your query, immediately saw one or several things that made them certain it wasn't for them, hit the button. It's a straight up "not for me" type thing. They probably didn't even read the actual writing so there's not necessarily an issue. So long as your query has been vetted along with the actual writing, not much you can take away from it.


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## Tiamat

luckyscars said:


> I also think one-day turnaround rejections are more a reflection of the agent than the writing, a lot of the time. What probably happened is they glanced at your query, immediately saw one or several things that made them certain it wasn't for them, hit the button. It's a straight up "not for me" type thing. They probably didn't even read the actual writing so there's not necessarily an issue. So long as your query has been vetted along with the actual writing, not much you can take away from it.


I definitely wasn't specific in the OP, but in this case, it wasn't an agent. It was a short story market, and it was a personal rejection with thoughts from two readers. I think ultimately it does boil down to "not a good fit" even if their comments were a bit more specific than that. (Don't they all, really? Such a subjective business we work in.) I've found that agents are usually pretty quick to get back to query letters (most of them anyways) but magazine editors can take moooooooonths. Which is why I appreciate the quick turn around on the no thank you here.


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## Kyle R

Tiamat said:


> Today I got the quickest rejection I've ever gotten. A one-day turnaround so I barely had time to get my hopes up. Probs better that way though! It lets me move on more quickly.



Was it from _Clarkesworld_?? They're known for extremely fast declines.

I once received a form rejection from them so quickly, it arrived in my inbox before I even submitted. :beguiled:


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## Tiamat

Silver Pen actually. Duotrope says their average rejection is 3.3 days.

On a similar note, I once received a form rejection from Contrary mag when I _had not submitted anything to them in over a year_. I took it very personally. :lol:


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## EternalGreen

At the rate I'm going, I'll be getting my first rejections in no time flat. :encouragement:

(I did get a rejection or two several years back in college. Looking back, I'm glad it didn't make it. I think it was written in old english or latin or something.)


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## jenthepen

I used to submit about 10 articles and stories every week to newspapers and magazines. Since, if I was lucky, I got about 1 story a month accepted, you can imagine how the rejections mounted up. I always appreciated the editors who took the time to critique the work rather than simply sending out those pre-printed rejection slips that sadly made up the bulk of the replies. One rejection I've always remembered with affection, because it made me laugh at my own shortcomings, was a handwritten reply from a UK weekly paper where the editor took the time and trouble to write this :
_
Thank you for your submission which I read with great interest and some pleasure. However, careful reading of our paper would have furnished you with the fact that we stopped publishing short stories over five years ago.

_It was the the most effective rebuke about not doing my homework that I ever received and I never forgot that lesson!


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## Firemajic

Well, one thing is clear here, you guys are at least SUBMITTING your work.... and you obviously have SOMETHING finished... as in completed... that is huge, so congratulations for that.... you are waaaaay ahead of most of us... 

and Jen, congratulations on having some of your work accepted, that is something to be proud of...


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## luckyscars

Short story submissions is mainly just fishing. Either the story works for them or it doesn't. I have found that _most _of the time any short story can be published _somewhere _if you submit it to enough places, it's just a question of whether you do submit it enough before tiring of the process and what that 'somewhere' is. Places that pay are harder, obviously, and places that pay at a decent rate are extremely competitive -- and there aren't that many of them.

A good story submitted to, lets say, 30 different places, will most likely receive an offer from at least one. Sometimes more. One of my stories got four offers, all paid. Imagine the shit-eating grin...

'Most' is the operative phrase, though. Some short stories really are unemployable, unfortunately. That may be because the writing just sucks or it may be that it just doesn't 'fit' into the assumed genre. Some subject matter is difficult to publish. Some things editors just aren't comfortable with. 

I have, at this point, four or five short stories that I tried to sell for a long time, ones I believed (and still actually do) that they are good enough; went through the hassle of hundreds of submissions, and eventually gave up, ended up shoving three together into a 'collection' and self-published them because 'why not'. $1 for the 'book'. Self-published sales are next to nothing, I have done no promotion, I knocked them together in a night, but at the end of the day it's either that or have them sit rotting on a hard drive. I don't really care. I published dozens last year on one platform or another so a few duds isn't going to hurt my feelings.

For the most part, I assume rejection on everything I submit, I even try to make myself look forward to getting the rejection. Sounds weird, but it's really just easier that way. You cannot invest emotionally into any given submission. You have to assume the worst or else it gets too stressful. It's not like I don't believe in the supposed 'power of positive thinking' so much as I am more wary of the cancer of discouragement. If you start to believe you aren't a good writer, you find yourself mired by an inability to write. So, everything I submit I assume the agent/editor will simply not find room for on their list, dwell on it no further than that, and get on with the day.


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## Tiamat

luckyscars said:


> Short story submissions is mainly just fishing.


100% agree with this. I have a literary story that I wrote several years ago. I've subbed it to about a dozen places or so at this point (currently pending at two mags right now), and more than 50% of the time, I get a rejection letter that says they really, really, really considered publishing this one, like really, truly considered it, but ultimately decided not to. To be fair, I'm being picky with this one and only subbing it to markets that pay well. "You were soooo close" is a refreshing break to the form "it just wasn't a good fit for us" types of rejections, but when it happens over and over again, it really starts to wear you down.

That said, I also try to hype myself up for the anticipated rejection as well. I'm certain a psychiatrist would tell me it's not healthy, but that cliché about expecting nothing and never being disappointed has some truth to it.


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## luckyscars

Tiamat said:


> 100% agree with this. I have a literary story that I wrote several years ago. I've subbed it to about a dozen places or so at this point (currently pending at two mags right now), and more than 50% of the time, I get a rejection letter that says they really, really, really considered publishing this one, like really, truly considered it, but ultimately decided not to. To be fair, I'm being picky with this one and only subbing it to markets that pay well. "You were soooo close" is a refreshing break to the form "it just wasn't a good fit for us" types of rejections, but when it happens over and over again, it really starts to wear you down.
> 
> That said, I also try to hype myself up for the anticipated rejection as well. I'm certain a psychiatrist would tell me it's not healthy, but that cliché about expecting nothing and never being disappointed has some truth to it.



I totally relate, but what I found helpful was to basically forget about a story once it's 100% finished. I don't mean literally forget, that's silly, but kind of...move on, I guess? 

Once I have completed a story and moved to the submission phase I don't revisit it again (unless on the rare occasion I'm given feedback on a potential issue, then I will) and I move onto other projects. I try to take the view that once it is finished it's no longer really 'my story', that I don't want it anymore and I'm trying to get rid of it. I try to forget how much I might have liked it and separate emotionally from it. It's kind of like, I don't know, selling the leftover crap from a marriage that is over? It becomes totally utilitarian, totally a matter of 'get this OUT'. It's not that I don't love the story anymore so much as I try to make that feeling detached: I still love the story, I'm just not _loving _it.


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## Theglasshouse

I've got a question since this confused me. I sent this to a new market listing. Here are the pay specifics: 1p (GBP) per word via paypal (approx 1.3c US). This has got to be the wrong number. It's also misleading. I submitted a manuscript to them. I thought they paid well. But the math is wrong. https://wyldblood.com/submissions-2/[FONT=&Verdana]

I am afraid of contacting them. I could withdraw the story if I muster the courage. But as people here can see there is a mathematical miscalculation. According to ralan pay markets web page that is the British pound in pence. I am thinking since my manuscript is over 3641 words it rounds to 47 dollars (I googled elsewhere). Which is not what I wanted. I wanted to submit it for exposure, some decent pay, and a good reputation.  1.3 makes it sound like 1 dollar and 3 cents which doesn't make sense.

As for rejections. The best rejection I got from a professional publication is that it made it to the 3rd round. That same story was rewritten many times. I eventually got the impression it was a good story since Mike Resnick who worked for Galaxy (now closed since he had passed away) when the magazine was running said it was a good story, and they had to be extra picky when choosing their stories. The other magazine I won't mention (but is my favorite place to submit stories based on how much they liked that story). But that's where I made it to the 3rd round. Those are my most encouraging rejections. My worst rejection was encouraging but realistic in that it said the truth. That would be from metamorphosis. I didn't have the language tools or skill sets. I eventually was told it was incoherent. That's not unexpected. Because I wasn't using assistive technology. I rely on text to speech readers. I hope I can use the microphone that I bought so I do have to do less editing. Been waiting for light speed to open for submissions. Unfortunately they are never open. I also tend to get form rejections. The longest I lasted at Clarkesworld was 6 days and it was a form rejection. Í've received comments before this isn't a suitable fit for us at this time.[/FONT]


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## clark

I wish I could adopt your pragmatic attitude, luckyscars, but I submit so seldom I'm always thunderstruck when I get that rejection slip. What is the _matter _with these people? Don't they realize that is one of my cherished ​children they're speaking light and loose about? How dare they, etc etc. (exit left in righteous indignation) .

I really must submit more and develop a thicker skin ...............


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## Bayview

Theglasshouse said:


> I've got a question since this confused me. I sent this to a new market listing. Here are the pay specifics: 1p (GBP) per word via paypal (approx 1.3c US). This has got to be the wrong number. It's also misleading. I submitted a manuscript to them. I thought they paid well. But the math is wrong. https://wyldblood.com/submissions-2/[FONT=&Verdana]
> 
> I am afraid of contacting them. I could withdraw the story if I muster the courage. But as people here can see there is a mathematical miscalculation. According to ralan pay markets web page that is the British pound in pence. I am thinking since my manuscript is over 3641 words it rounds to 47 dollars (I googled elsewhere). Which is not what I wanted. I wanted to submit it for exposure, some decent pay, and a good reputation.  1.3 makes it sound like 1 dollar and 3 cents which doesn't make sense.
> 
> [/FONT]



I don't understand. I think your math is right - a 3600 word MS would earn 36 pounds. But I don't see what's deceptive about what they wrote. It's not "pro rates", but it's in the same BALLPARK as pro rates. I can't imagine a start-up publisher being able to pay 3600 pounds for a very short story!


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## Tiamat

Theglasshouse said:


> I've got a question since this confused me. I sent this to a new market listing. Here are the pay specifics: 1p (GBP) per word via paypal (approx 1.3c US). This has got to be the wrong number. It's also misleading. I submitted a manuscript to them. I thought they paid well. But the math is wrong. https://wyldblood.com/submissions-2/[FONT=&Verdana]
> 
> I am afraid of contacting them. I could withdraw the story if I muster the courage. But as people here can see there is a mathematical miscalculation. According to ralan pay markets web page that is the British pound in pence. I am thinking since my manuscript is over 3641 words it rounds to 47 dollars (I googled elsewhere). Which is not what I wanted. I wanted to submit it for exposure, some decent pay, and a good reputation.  1.3 makes it sound like 1 dollar and 3 cents which doesn't make sense.
> 
> As for rejections. The best rejection I got from a professional publication is that it made it to the 3rd round. That same story was rewritten many times. I eventually got the impression it was a good story since Mike Resnick who worked for Galaxy (now closed since he had passed away) when the magazine was running said it was a good story, and they had to be extra picky when choosing their stories. The other magazine I won't mention (but is my favorite place to submit stories based on how much they liked that story). But that's where I made it to the 3rd round. Those are my most encouraging rejections. My worst rejection was encouraging but realistic in that it said the truth. That would be from metamorphosis. I didn't have the language tools or skill sets. I eventually was told it was incoherent. That's not unexpected. Because I wasn't using assistive technology. I rely on text to speech readers. I hope I can use the microphone that I bought so I do have to do less editing. Been waiting for light speed to open for submissions. Unfortunately they are never open. I also tend to get form rejections. The longest I lasted at Clarkesworld was 6 days and it was a form rejection. Í've received comments before this isn't a suitable fit for us at this time.[/FONT]


Apparently you and I submit to a lot of the same places. I have stories pending to both Wyldblood and Metamorphosis. That said, I didn't reach the same conclusion as you regarding the exchange. When I saw "1.3c US" read that as $0.013 so my 2700-word story would sell for $35.10. I don't think I've ever seen a market pay $1.30 per word, so that may've helped me with the context. 

But, if you want to withdraw your submission, I don't see any problem with that whatsoever. Just contact them and say you'd like to withdraw. You don't even have to give a reason if you don't want. It's your story--your intellectual property, if you like--and until you agree to sell it to someone for the terms they're offering, all the rights to it are 100% yours.


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## Theglasshouse

Yes it makes sense now putting the math into perspective that it would have been too much money. I was confused since the duotrope page said it was 4-5 cents a word. So I didn't bother to calculate it. Maybe it could be worth it just for exposure.


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## jenthepen

clark said:


> I wish I could adopt your pragmatic attitude, luckyscars, but I submit so seldom I'm always thunderstruck when I get that rejection slip. What is the _matter _with these people? Don't they realize that is one of my cherished ​children they're speaking light and loose about? How dare they, etc etc. (exit left in righteous indignation) .
> 
> I really must submit more and develop a thicker skin ...............



Don't try to develop a thicker skin, Clark, cherish your self-belief. You just need to swap the indignation for a quiet sadness at their lack of vision.  One day they will all recognise your genius (and mine) - just a case of living long enough for the world to catch up, I guess.


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## luckyscars

clark said:


> I wish I could adopt your pragmatic attitude, luckyscars, but I submit so seldom I'm always thunderstruck when I get that rejection slip. What is the _matter _with these people? Don't they realize that is one of my cherished ​children they're speaking light and loose about? How dare they, etc etc. (exit left in righteous indignation) .
> 
> I really must submit more and develop a thicker skin ...............



I think submitting more would probably help. Submitting tends to mitigate such feelings, I find, simply by dilution. Its harder to be affected by a single rejection if you still have 20 other submissions out there, you know? 

I'm not saying that rejection shouldn't have any effect, only that it shouldn't hurt. It should be motivating, a kind of badge of honor that drives you forward and makes you ask questions about your work rather than pass judgments on yourself. 

Sounds counter-intuitive, but if you think of rejection as being completely normal as part of being a writer, that ALL good writers get rejected (which is true), then there's really no reason to be demoralized. _This is supposed to happen._

I like to submit in batches immediately -- or as close to immediately as possible -- after the work is completely done. That leaves no time for dwelling: Finish on a Monday, Submit all Tuesday, send out 20-30 (or however many you can tolerate) to whoever is running calls in a single sitting, then on Wednesday...move on to the next thing. If those 20-30 aren't working out, you can have another round of submissions later, but 30 subs for a short story or poem is hopefully sufficient. If it ends in 20-30 "thanks but nah's" then maybe it's time to reevaluate the work at that point and either have another go (with any changes) or just table it.



Theglasshouse said:


> I've got a question since this confused me. I sent this to a new market listing. Here are the pay specifics: 1p (GBP) per word via paypal (approx 1.3c US). This has got to be the wrong number. It's also misleading. I submitted a manuscript to them. I thought they paid well. But the math is wrong. https://wyldblood.com/submissions-2/[FONT=&Verdana]
> [/FONT]


[FONT=&Verdana]

No, 1p per word is a good semi-pro rate. 0.01 x 1,000 words is ten pounds per thousand words. That's about 20-60 GBP per short story. A pro rate is 0.06-0.08 pennies per word (that's USD, so for GBP probably something like 0.4/0.5), which is going to math out at around 100-200 GBP.



> I am afraid of contacting them. I could withdraw the story if I muster the courage. But as people here can see there is a mathematical miscalculation. According to ralan pay markets web page that is the British pound in pence. I am thinking since my manuscript is over 3641 words it rounds to 47 dollars (I googled elsewhere). Which is not what I wanted. I wanted to submit it for exposure, some decent pay, and a good reputation.  1.3 makes it sound like 1 dollar and 3 cents which doesn't make sense.



Unfortunately this is why there aren't many rich short-story writers.

If you want to make 'decent pay' writing short stories you need to get into places like the New Yorker consistently enough and then sell a collection. Or, better still, win some prizes. Those typically pay thousands. Not easy, though. Most short story writers make close to zero dollars per story. I've only sold one story at pro rates and it was nice but that's one. All the rest have been, like, $30-60, sometimes royalties (which is more consistent but next to nothing), or $0. C'est la vie. Better to use short stories to build publishing history and develop as a writer IMO.
[/FONT]


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## Theglasshouse

As much as I appreciate the advice which has good intentions. I doubt anyone here could get into the new yorker (for reasons unknown to me other than they are prestigious and have a very low acceptance rate and maybe I am not their best candidate. I need to read their issues). What do I see in your advice? I see it as being true that writing a lot will get you a history for reference for future references (which is an empirical observation which I consider valid since I share that opinion). But to me this isn't a big issue. I see myself not having a story in the new yorker anytime soon. Personally I just want to be published by a pro science fiction market 3 times. I almost got there once. Which means it isn't impossible. I am doing it more for the validation since I spend hours on my hobby writing. It really is a trivial question to ask why I got it wrong. I tend to think I am nice to others, so I answer their questions. A common advice which I value a lot is to always send your work to the best market possible. I wasn't familiar with what pence was since I never used it as a currency (been to the uk as a tourist once). Also, my knowledge of math has to do with numbers being 1.3 being the wrong number to express what they were paying. Part of me wants to be realistic. The new yorker is very well known to me. 1.3 stated as the conversion rate should be stated in a different number. But I dont mind I will leave it there. I mean I don't know if this could ultimately be what I need. Since I do want a longer list of paid publications.

I hope I can disagree. I mean if we disagree maybe the truth or the good opinion will come from it? Sometimes people feel offended when they disagree. So do I agree with your post. Mostly, but like any writer who has a passion to write I have to sacrifice my hours and time to write a story.

How is this relevant? The advice is that you should always submit to the best imo still stays true. If they reject you eventually someone will accept you. Which is why I do have courage, despite my statement saying I didn't. Just to place this into context. This statement came from the sfwa. 8 cents is a lot better. But that doesn't mean it is a lot. I have heard that argument before.

Some facts about the new yorker I also know. It accepts science fiction. Some anecdote: I saw a person who submitted there get a rejection that unsolicited manuscripts sometimes get accepted. But this is rarely the case. 

The highest I've been paid was 6 cents. So I do know it's not impossible for me. I hope what I said is the truth to people here (it might be the relative truth). Sometimes I suppose there is room for disagreement. But thanks for writing down your opinion. So for the New Yorker I disagree. The rest of your opinion makes sense.


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## luckyscars

Theglasshouse said:


> As much as I appreciate the advice which has good intentions. I doubt anyone here could get into the new yorker (for reasons unknown to me other than they are prestigious and have a very low acceptance rate and maybe I am not their best candidate. I need to read their issues). What do I see in your advice? I see it as being true that writing a lot will get you a history for reference for future references (which is an empirical observation which I consider valid since I share that opinion). But to me this isn't a big issue. I see myself not having a story in the new yorker anytime soon. Personally I just want to be published by a pro science fiction market 3 times. I almost got there once. Which means it isn't impossible. I am doing it more for the validation since I spend hours on my hobby writing. It really is a trivial question to ask why I got it wrong. I tend to think I am nice to others, so I answer their questions. A common advice which I value a lot is to always send your work to the best market possible. I wasn't familiar with what pence was since I never used it as a currency (been to the uk as a tourist once). Also, my knowledge of math has to do with numbers being 1.3 being the wrong number to express what they were paying. Part of me wants to be realistic. The new yorker is very well known to me. 1.3 stated as the conversion rate should be stated in a different number. But I dont mind I will leave it there. I mean I don't know if this could ultimately be what I need. Since I do want a longer list of paid publications.
> 
> I hope I can disagree. I mean if we disagree maybe the truth or the good opinion will come from it? Sometimes people feel offended when they disagree. So do I agree with your post. Mostly, but like any writer who has a passion to write I have to sacrifice my hours and time to write a story.
> 
> How is this relevant? The advice is that you should always submit to the best imo still stays true. If they reject you eventually someone will accept you. Which is why I do have courage, despite my statement saying I didn't. Just to place this into context. This statement came from the sfwa. 8 cents is a lot better. But that doesn't mean it is a lot. I have heard that argument before.
> 
> Some facts about the new yorker I also know. It accepts science fiction. Some anecdote: I saw a person who submitted there get a rejection that unsolicited manuscripts sometimes get accepted. But this is rarely the case.
> 
> The highest I've been paid was 6 cents. So I do know it's not impossible for me. I hope what I said is the truth to people here (it might be the relative truth). Sometimes I suppose there is room for disagreement. But thanks for writing down your opinion. So for the New Yorker I disagree. The rest of your opinion makes sense.



I was being flippant mentioning The New Yorker. The New Yorker is really tough. Same for Asimov's, The Paris Review, all those places. Those are tough because they don't just publish 'good stories', they publish absolutely excellent stories that _also _fit a very specific editorial vision, are unique in some sense. They usually have thousands of competitors to the point the odds are pretty long of even a good and technically flawless story making the cut. They are considered the zenith of short fiction for this reason, they have to be selective.

Bottom line is unless you are Raymond Carver you probably wont ever publish pro-rate short fiction frequently. You might, but in today's time there just isn't a huge, sustainable market for high paying short fiction. It's not popular enough. So, you have to be quite consistently brilliant.

In that regard, poetry is similar but poetry has some advantages short fiction does not. I observe that many of the 'professional poets' I know (who still aren't rich, but do make money) don't really make most of their income from selling poetry. They make some, but poetry these days is frequently performance based, crossing over into spoken word territory, enabling the sales of chapbooks, CD's, etc. at recitals that in many respects are more similar to drama or music performances than writing.

But hey, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take.


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## Tiamat

I subbed a story to The New Yorker recently, and it hasn't been 90 days yet so there's still hope! (I mean, not really, but...) The fact that I am incredibly unlikely to ever sell a story to them is not going to stop me from subbing. Go big or go home, y'all.


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## clark

Glasshouse -- I think you misunderstood luckystars' point. The New Yorker he used as an analogy, not a literal target mag for your work. Being *able *to note in your bio that your short fiction is published in _The New Yorker, The Atlantic Monthly_, and _Playboy _(don't laugh. VERY high standards) is gold on two important levels in the publishing world: 
1. The editor about to read your work doesn't know you at all. You're just a name. But when he sees where you've already published , he knows _ipso facto _that you are a quality writer and he is going to have a quality read. He may even read your submission first
2, And he'll be rooting for you, hoping he can accept your work, because your track record makes HIS mag look that much better

A little footnote: lavish your attention on your BIO. Don't buy that bull, "we read all entries blind, with nothing identifying author". Okay, shelve my cynicism, and assume honesty--at minimum, your BIO will be read closely and you want it to have punch. And be a model of succinct relevance. If you happen to have a BA, MA, and PhD: here's what you do NOT do--"Mr. Jones earned his BA at Mississippi State, his MA at Boston College, and his PhD at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, where he studied with Noam Chomsky." YES-- "PhD at MIT with Noam Chomsky". That's IT. Your BIO is the editor's  first window on YOU and your background, achievements, and excitement-level as a writer. Every word should be slanted towards this mini-portrait of you. And don't forget tha Bios and resumes are intended as bragging platforms.


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## JJBuchholz

Kyle R said:


> Was it from _Clarkesworld_?? They're known for extremely fast declines.



I once received a nasty and rude email from Clarkesworld to decline one of my manuscripts. I've gotten a lot of rejections, but theirs was pretty brutal. I also had a rejection notice about a month ago in which the person wrote (on the cusp of being rude but not) that I was basically wasting their time.

Some people's children, I tell you.

-JJB


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## Tiamat

clark said:


> A little footnote: lavish your attention on your BIO. Don't buy that bull, "we read all entries blind, with nothing identifying author". Okay, shelve my cynicism, and assume honesty--at minimum, your BIO will be read closely and you want it to have punch. And be a model of succinct relevance. If you happen to have a BA, MA, and PhD: here's what you do NOT do--"Mr. Jones earned his BA at Mississippi State, his MA at Boston College, and his PhD at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, where he studied with Noam Chomsky." YES-- "PhD at MIT with Noam Chomsky". That's IT. Your BIO is the editor's  first window on YOU and your background, achievements, and excitement-level as a writer. Every word should be slanted towards this mini-portrait of you. And don't forget tha Bios and resumes are intended as bragging platforms.


This is a really interesting point of view that now seems incredibly obvious, but that I hadn't actually thought that hard about before. I do agree with you about "blind" submissions not being at all blind most of the time though. (If it's truly blind, you don't need my bio till after you've accepted my work--and yet you still want it up front.) I should maybe start taking that a little more seriously and stop sending flippant bios with my work. I mean, not that I have an MFA in creative writing or anything relevant to the industry. All I have is street cred. :lol:


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## JJBuchholz

Tiamat said:


> I subbed a story to The New Yorker recently, and it hasn't been 90 days yet so there's still hope!



I sent them something a month ago myself. One of my longer manuscripts is sitting on a desk somewhere at One World Trade Center waiting for someone's attention (unless it's instead sitting in a recycling bin at the before mentioned piece of real estate).

-JJB


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## luckyscars

clark said:


> A little footnote: lavish your attention on your BIO. Don't buy that bull, "we read all entries blind, with nothing identifying author". Okay, shelve my cynicism, and assume honesty--at minimum, your BIO will be read closely and you want it to have punch. And be a model of succinct relevance. If you happen to have a BA, MA, and PhD: here's what you do NOT do--"Mr. Jones earned his BA at Mississippi State, his MA at Boston College, and his PhD at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, where he studied with Noam Chomsky." YES-- "PhD at MIT with Noam Chomsky". That's IT. Your BIO is the editor's  first window on YOU and your background, achievements, and excitement-level as a writer. Every word should be slanted towards this mini-portrait of you. And don't forget tha Bios and resumes are intended as bragging platforms.



I think that's a good point, Clark. A lot of people seem to really struggle with bios and when they do write them they tend to be extremely perfunctory: "I live in Indian Corpse, Idaho, with two dogs and a husband". It seems obvious that sort of bio is basically no better than no bio at all. The point of a bio isn't just to check a box that says 'I'm a human being', that's a given, it's to assert the human qualities behind the writing.

I feel like a good bio should instill a sense of character. That's not to say they have to be ridiculously flamboyant, but they should focus on the interesting aspects of the writer, just like a character description in the book/story focuses on the interesting aspects of its fictional beings. A good bio should be intimate, should focus on things like motivations, experiences, interests not simply vital statistics. Instead of "I am interested in travel" something like "I have traveled extensively around Eastern Europe, learning about the history of the region and walking the paths of my characters" is way better.


----------



## clark

And, "extensive travel breathes in his characters" is even better. Once you've written your bio, go over every sentence, trying to make it even tighter. And notice the pronoun shift. ALWAYS write your bio in the third-person. If that all sounds dictatorial, that's because it is. I used to charge executives, CEOs, politicians heavy fees to write their resumes. Most of the time I was reducing an existing 5-page moosh of irrelevant self-indulgence into a 2-page (sometimes 1-page only) hard-hitting professional portrait where every word provided the reader with stuff they wanted to know.


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## Kyle R

luckyscars said:


> I like to submit in batches immediately -- or as close to immediately as possible -- after the work is completely done. That leaves no time for dwelling: Finish on a Monday, Submit all Tuesday, send out 20-30 (or however many you can tolerate) to whoever is running calls in a single sitting, then on Wednesday...move on to the next thing. If those 20-30 aren't working out, you can have another round of submissions later, but 30 subs for a short story or poem is hopefully sufficient. If it ends in 20-30 "thanks but nah's" then maybe it's time to reevaluate the work at that point and either have another go (with any changes) or just table it.



I think it's worth mentioning (for anyone who might not know) that some markets won't accept simultaneous submissions. Meaning, if you're sending a story to one of these markets, you're technically not permitted to submit the story elsewhere, until you hear a response back from them.

[FONT=&Verdana]All the stories I have out for consideration right now are "no simultaneous submission" markets. So, one market per story.

It kind of sucks, especially because it could mean up to two months of waiting just to get a form rejection, before you're allowed to shop it elsewhere. But I use that time to write and submit other stories, to other markets, in the meantime.[/FONT]


----------



## luckyscars

Kyle R said:


> I think it's worth mentioning (for anyone who might not know) that some markets won't accept simultaneous submissions. Meaning, if you're sending a story to one of these markets, you're technically not permitted to submit the story elsewhere, until you hear a response back from them.
> 
> [FONT=&Verdana]All the stories I have out for consideration right now are "no simultaneous submission" markets. So, one market per story.
> 
> It kind of sucks, especially because it could mean up to two months of waiting just to get a form rejection, before you're allowed to shop it elsewhere. But I use that time to write and submit other stories, to other markets, in the meantime.[/FONT]



Thanks for bringing that up. 

I don't generally submit to those places (unless there's an overwhelming reason to). I find it objectionable, borderline unprofessional, for a publishing house to assume that level of authority over what is essentially the free market in action -- I see it as a way to subdue competition. Such rules seem made entirely to benefit the publishing house by allowing them to be slow to respond (and pay less -- you're more likely to accept a bad deal if you don't have an alternative) with zero benefit to the writer. 

Fortunately, it seems like a pretty small minority who do that. 

*Simultaneous Submission Statistics*

Here are the simultaneous submission statistics for our active publisher listings by category (as of 11 August 2020):

CATEGORYSIMSUBS OKNO SIMSUBSNOT STATED*Fiction2,126 (58%)345 (9%)1,216 (33%)Nonfiction1,675 (43%)1,051 (27%)1,174 (30%)Poetry2,228 (60%)325 (9%)1,163 (31%)Visual Art941 (61%)91 (6%)499 (33%)
(https://duotrope.com/guides/simultaneous-submissions.aspx)

I interpret "not stated" to mean it's OK so it's 91% that are ok with S.Subs. Which sort of begs the question: If 91% are either explicitly or implicitly okay with that, why do 9% need to do it? What is the justification? The argument that it's because 'writers don't follow etiquette' is a bad faith argument given how many publishers don't follow etiquette either and that this does not address that problem. The fact that some writers may forget or not bother informing places they submit to that a piece has been sold and a few minutes therefore gets wasted here and there 'accepting' work only to find out the writer already sold it...doesn't justify holding all writers to ransom for months over a demand for literary monogamy. It's a disproportionate and unjustified response, basically. 

It's particularly unacceptable if the place in question doesn't respond for months -- I would probably give them a week tops then withdraw it out of principle. I would personally be okay waiting a few days for a response but I'm not waiting six months just so Fat Tony's Science Fiction Magazine (paying an almighty $20 per story plus a contributor ebook) can decide I'm not good enough. Fuck 'em. Drive 'em out of business.


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## Tiamat

I pretty much refuse to submit to any zine that doesn't allow simultaneous submissions. (Or electronic submissions for that matter. We live in a time of actual robots; I'm not snail-mailing a stack of paper. But I digress...) It just grates on me in a big way that anyone would demand I give them exclusivity for three months or more just to turn me down--or worse, never reply. And I admit to being really rather curious about anyone who _doesn't _mind that. 



			
				Kyle R said:
			
		

> All the stories I have out for consideration right now are "no simultaneous submission" markets. So, one market per story.


Can I ask why? Are the rates offered really, really good at those markets you've subbed to? What made you sub with those as opposed to others that wouldn't care if you sent your piece to a dozen others at the same time?


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## Kyle R

luckyscars said:
			
		

> I don't generally submit to those places (unless there's an overwhelming reason to). I find it objectionable, borderline unprofessional, for a publishing house to assume that level of authority over what is essentially the free market in action -- I see it as a way to subdue competition. Such rules seem made entirely to benefit the publishing house by allowing them to be slow to respond (and pay less -- you're more likely to accept a bad deal if you don't have an alternative) with zero benefit to the writer.



I think, in a perfect writer's world, all publications would accept simultaneous (and multiple) submissions. All responses would be in a few days or less. And all rejections would come with detailed editorial feedback that not only explains why the story was rejected, but also teaches us how to be better writers.

I'd be over the moon happy if such were the case. :beguiled: But obviously that would only happen in a fantasy world.

On the other hand, I can see how simultaneous submissions, from an editor's perspective, can be a nightmare. Especially if your publication is one where stories go through several rounds of vetting (involving both slush readers and staff editors) before the final few stories are chosen.

Having a story withdrawn, after it has potentially passed through multiple rounds of staff readings and commentary (and likely dislodged a few other contending stories into receiving rejections), would be, from an editor's perspective, beyond frustrating.

So I guess I'm saying: I'm not a fan of "no sim. subs!" either, but I also understand why some publications request it.


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## Kyle R

Tiamat said:


> Can I ask why? Are the rates offered really, really good at those markets you've subbed to? What made you sub with those as opposed to others that wouldn't care if you sent your piece to a dozen others at the same time?



Mainly because I really like those markets, and would be proud to see my writing in their publications. I also kind of wrote those stories with those particular publications in mind.

Though there's also the money thing, too. They pay pro rates. And I'm broke. I opened my wallet yesterday and it was so pitifully empty that its interior collapsed, tearing a hole in the fabric of space and nearly sucking me inside of it. The gravitational pull nearly tore off one of my eyebrows before I managed to snap the wallet shut. :tongue2:


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## luckyscars

Kyle R said:


> On the other hand, I can see how simultaneous submissions, from an editor's perspective, can be a nightmare. Especially if your publication is one where stories go through several rounds of vetting (involving both slush readers and staff editors) before the final few stories are chosen.
> 
> Having a story withdrawn, after it has potentially passed through multiple rounds of staff readings and commentary (and likely dislodged a few other contending stories into receiving rejections), would be, from an editor's perspective, beyond frustrating.
> 
> So I guess I'm saying: I'm not a fan of "no sim. subs!" either, but I also understand why some publications request it.



This feels weird because I feel like I'm usually the one defending the publishing industry on this forum...but I can't on this. This is a hill I actually would die on.

I think there's obviously a big difference when submitting a story with no particular destination in mind and submitting a story which has one. If you wrote something _for _a certain publisher then obviously do what is necessary.

But I still don't think it's particularly understandable -- A lot of pro rate places do allow sim. subs. Asimov's allows sim. subs, IIRC, and I know for a fact the New Yorker does.  I'm sure both of those places (as well as other pro markets) also have multiple rounds of staff readings and all the other things that supposedly make it 'necessary', yet they don't seem to suffer from lack of high quality content going other places. On the flip side, a lot of the 'no sim sub' places aren't pro paying -- a few of them don't pay anything. That's absolutely unacceptable. Places that are essentially asking a product for free are, in my opinion, without any standing. You can maybe make a case that somewhere that stands to pay a lot deserves a little bit of exclusive time, but somewhere that is paying $10 a time or nothing at all? It's like if you pulled into a car dealership with a 'free oil change' promotional coupon and insisted they cancel all their other customers to work on yours first. No thanks, Karen.

There is probably _some_ correlation between prestige of the market and likelihood of wanting an exclusive reading window,  but if it was necessary then it would be typical. What it seems like is the editorial staff wanting to take their sweet time without any pressure to get through a slush pile. Or just making up for some incompetency in their process. Either way, that's a 'them' problem, I feel. I'm generally of the opinion that writing is a buyer's market and as writers we need to not be too proud to cater to (sometimes silly) rules, but there are limits at which we have to say no, if for no other reason than to drive out bad actors from hurting other writers.

The only time I can see such a thing being reasonable is in a contest scenario. But a random story in some journal or magazine...I don't think is a big enough deal. So what if the story they really like gets sold to somebody else? That's the free market, baby. You should have hustled. Be a better editor -- just like we are trying to be better writers.

Anyway, I guess it's just a 'different folks' type thing, at the end of the day. Waiting on singular submissions may be tolerable to some, but I really don't want to spend two years or more shopping a short story! Certainly not when there are other places to sub to. It's such a mental hassle holding onto work that long that I would rather live with having 9% fewer outlets but retaining the ability to hit up multiples and get stuff done and dusted.


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## BornForBurning

> But I still don't think it's particularly understandable -- A lot of pro rate places do allow sim. subs. Asimov's allows sim. subs, IIRC, and I know for a fact the New Yorker does. I'm sure both of those places (as well as other pro markets) also have multiple rounds of staff readings and all the other things that supposedly make it 'necessary', yet they seem to do quite well.


There's a simple solution to the simultaneous submission problem: send out acceptances before you send out rejections. That way, you can pick up the stories you would have rejected if your first pick hadn't gotten pulled. Dark Moon Digest does this, I believe. 

I don't have a whole lot of moral feeling on this issue, honestly. Though, I definitely appreciate places like The Dark Magazine that request exclusive submission but also make it a point to get back to you ASAP.


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## SteveieH

My debut novel is up on Amazon, ‘Elf and Efficiency,’ but it seems that Amazon is not interested in helping you get your work out to a global audience. You have to waste all your time trying your get your SEO up and people cashing in on you. The whole system seems to be weighted toward best selling authors, (where they make the most money I suppose). 
I thought it would be different to trying to publish through an agent or publisher, but it’s the same old closed door that we waste our lives knocking on.
I would much rather be writing, but I think the publishing system is rigged, it seems to be more about exclusion rather than encouraging new talent.
what do you think?


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## Bayview

SteveieH said:


> My debut novel is up on Amazon, ‘Elf and Efficiency,’ but it seems that Amazon is not interested in helping you get your work out to a global audience. You have to waste all your time trying your get your SEO up and people cashing in on you. The whole system seems to be weighted toward best selling authors, (where they make the most money I suppose).
> I thought it would be different to trying to publish through an agent or publisher, but it’s the same old closed door that we waste our lives knocking on.
> I would much rather be writing, but I think the publishing system is rigged, it seems to be more about exclusion rather than encouraging new talent.
> what do you think?



I think too often people see malice where there is only indifference. I mean, I sympathize with your frustration, but in the current world of self-publishing there are thousands and thousands of new books published every month. I don't think there's any possible way for Amazon to get ALL those books in front of a global audience. The system isn't rigged, it's just overcrowded. Rather than the problem being a CLOSED door, the problem is that the door is open so wide that there's a flood of books coming through and it's increasingly difficult for any single book to get noticed.

There are self-publishers who manage to surf to the top of the flood. They tend to be at least as good at self-promotion as they are at writing. For everyone else? It's fairly bleak.


----------



## Chris Stevenson

My agent and I have been together for eight years. She tried so hard to get one of my YA even noticed, or get a R & R for six years with this book. Nothing doing from the B-5. 

So, that book went to the highest bidding small press. I've made lots of sales, pulled great reviews, and have been interviewed and guest-posted all over hell's half acre. More ink than an octopus. As a further result, two awards.

Son IN YOUR FACE, Big-5, you rotten snots!


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## Kyle R

luckyscars said:


> But I still don't think it's particularly understandable -- A lot of pro rate places do allow sim. subs. Asimov's allows sim. subs, IIRC, and I know for a fact the New Yorker does.  I'm sure both of those places (as well as other pro markets) also have multiple rounds of staff readings and all the other things that supposedly make it 'necessary', yet they don't seem to suffer from lack of high quality content going other places.



I believe _Asimov's_ doesn't accept simultaneous submissions. Most pro-rate SFF markets don't accept sim subs, actually. _Beneath Ceaseless Skies_ is one of the few that I know of. Some other names that come to mind (_Analog, Strange Horizons, Clarkesworld, Uncanny, Daily Science Fiction, Flash Fiction Online, Interzone, Fantasy Magazine_, etc...) are all "no sim subs".

Perhaps it's an SFF thing? If you're looking at a pro-rate SFF market, chances are they don't accept sim subs. If they do, they're one of the exceptions.

Maybe it's different outside of SFF. I'm not sure about _The New Yorker_, for example. The Submission Grinder says "no", while Duotrope says "unknown", and TNY's website doesn't even mention sim subs in its Fiction guidelines. Maybe they do?

They're such a prestigious market, though, with such a specific audience, that I'm not sure why someone would sim sub to them. Is this hypothetical writer submitting a story that's so amorphous it could fit with _The New Yorker_ and _Space Squid Magazine_ at the same time?

And if you're hoping to get into _The New Yorker_, wouldn't you wait to hear back from them, anyway, even if you get accepted elsewhere, simply because they're so prestigious (and pay so damn much)? (Google tells me that TNY pays $7,500 for a short story. If that's even remotely true, then holy crap.) 

I totally get the "Who the hell do they think they are, trying to monopolize my unsold writing?" reaction, from a submitting writer's perspective. Which is why it's great that there _are_ so many markets out there that welcome sim subs.

But for those that don't accept sim subs, if you'd like to be in their specific publication, you have to be okay with giving them a period of exclusive consideration.


----------



## Tiamat

BornForBurning said:


> There's a simple solution to the simultaneous submission problem: send out acceptances before you send out rejections. That way, you can pick up the stories you would have rejected if your first pick hadn't gotten pulled. Dark Moon Digest does this, I believe.
> 
> I don't have a whole lot of moral feeling on this issue, honestly. Though, I definitely appreciate places like The Dark Magazine that request exclusive submission but also make it a point to get back to you ASAP.


I'm actually not sure this is a feasible solution. The majority of stories received by markets are either A) completely wrong for them or B) poorly written and/or not all that good. I've been a slush reader for a couple different zines now; trust me on this one. So a slush reader can sometimes tell after a paragraph or two that the story isn't going to be accepted, whereas if they think it has merit, oftentimes it needs to go through several more people before a decision is made. It'd be counterproductive in the extreme to hold onto your rejections longer than necessary. Now, what you said about getting back ASAP is really the key. I'd consider submitting to a no sim subs market if their response time was under a month.



Kyle R said:


> And if you're hoping to get into _The New Yorker, wouldn't you wait to hear back from them, anyway, even if you get accepted elsewhere, simply because they're so prestigious (and pay so damn much)?_


TNY specifically says in their guidelines that they will not reply if they're not interested. So I give you exclusivity because you're like, so prestigious man, and you don't even answer me? Naaaah. However, TNY _does _accept simultaneous submissions--just maybe not fiction. It's specifically called out in their poetry guidelines, and it's entirely left out of their fiction section. I actually lean towards probs not in fiction. I say that because they accept poetry submissions through Submittable but fiction submissions through email. 

All that said, I didn't come to that conclusion when I subbed to them because mine is def submitted to a couple other places as well. Whoops. If I were a better person, I would go withdraw from those other two markets where it's pending. If only...

Note to new writers reading this: Don't do what I did and (accidentally or on purpose) disregard submissions guidelines. The publishing world is pretty small and editors have long memories when you piss them off.


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## luckyscars

Kyle R said:


> I totally get the "Who the hell do they think they are, trying to monopolize my unsold writing?" reaction, from a submitting writer's perspective. Which is why it's great that there _are_ so many markets out there that welcome sim subs.
> 
> But for those that don't accept sim subs, if you'd like to be in their specific publication, you have to be okay with giving them a period of exclusive consideration.



Kyle, for the record, I agree with you. Part of submitting is agreeing to the idiosyncratic requirements of each publishing outlet. It annoys me when people want to get bitter about agents/editors asking them to do things/write a certain way/whatever like this is some kind of 50/50 partnership when it isn't. Ultimately almost every form of publishing has associated costs and (normally) these are footed 100% by the publisher not the author so it is only fair the magazine or whatever gets to dictate the terms generally. Even if they are silly.

I guess the reason why I find this particular issue a problem is (1) That it's such a small minority of publishing houses that feel the need to do it (2) It doesn't seem particularly linked to the resulting quality of output of said minority (3) The fact that they pretend it does insults our intelligence (4) If it then results in zero or substandard pay and/or a long reading time, that not only is an unfair ask but potentially one that hurts our careers by forcing us to spend undue time in the cycle. (5) Such things have the propensity to become the norm if the editor feels they can just demand it. Next thing you know, what if everywhere disallows s.subs, the editors get even slower/lazier, and somebody who is used to publishing multiple short stories a year is now limited to, like, maybe one or two?

It's a fair point, however, that ultimately we have the right to not submit to those places (and I usually don't) and who is hurt by that decision ultimately is an open question. Ultimately, we have to make case-by-case decisions. Such as: How many readers does this publication actually have? What _kind _of readers are they? For example, Asimov's is mostly SF and pretty big in that genre, but also accepts some fantasy and surreal stuff. Okay, but if I have a fantasy or surrealist story, I then have to make a kind of guess as to whether I want to try to take a punt on Asimovs -- if, putting aside whether they will actually want to publish it (and putting aside that they likely wont, as non-SF makes up a relatively small proportion of their content), will the kind of folks who subscribe to that magazine will actually follow my (non-SF) work in the future? If the answer is probably not, then publishing in Asimov's likely isn't worth the time versus, say, seeking out multiple fantasy or surrealist anthologies instead. Publishing short stories is really more about building a readership and a 'name' than it is about any one work, I think.

OTOH if you're a short story writer who not only writes science fiction but writes EXACTLY the kind of science fiction that is bread and butter to the Asimov's audience, then it makes sense to absolutely crawl through fire to reach their audience.


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## Tiamat

Well I woke up this morning to a rejection from Hypnos, but a maybe from Wyldblood. I'm assuming the latter only emailed me because their website says they respond to all submissions within 14 days and today is day 14. (That's really awesome of them, for the record.) So they replied and said they loved it and asked to hold it for a bit longer while they make their final selections. I said yes of course, because duh (and re: the sim sub conversation, I reiterated that the same story is still pending one other place, because etiquette). That said, every time I've gotten a "maybe," it has always turned into a no later. Here's hoping that trend gets broken...


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## Pamelyn Casto

One of my favorite lines to say to myself when a piece is rejected, in my best gangsta voice, is "Hey, I been throw'd outta much better joints than this one!" And while I've had my fair share of acceptances, I've also had my fair share of rejections. They work together to keep us always unsure and unsettled and always on our toes. But I wouldn't like it as much any other way! The challenge can be such fun (when it's not such disappointment). As our mamas always told us, " If at first (you know the drill) . . . then try, try again." 

One of my favorite rejection experiences was when I sent a poem to a magazine and my poem was rejected. I wasn't a good keeper of records back then so didn't realize my poem had already been rejected by this magazine when I sent the same poem to the same place again some time after the initial sending. Once more it was rejected. Then, still neglecting to keep good records, I sent it out a third time to the same editor. This time that very same poem was accepted by that very same editor. Thanks to my lousy record keeping at the time, my work got to make it there after all (on the third try). (Who knows? Maybe the editor finally learned to love the poem or maybe I wore the poor man down so he just gave up and published it.)


----------



## Tiamat

I've often wondered what would happen if I resubbed the same piece to the same market, but haven't been brave enough to try it. At least not that I know of. I don't keep the best records -- I'm still using the same notebook/pen combo to track submissions that I started ten years ago. I keep telling myself to at least throw together an Excel file to make life easier. Perhaps some day...


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## Pamelyn Casto

Okay, Tiamat, I'm going to urge you to start sending out and start keeping good records. Really_ good_ things can happen too (as you already know). Here's another great experience I had.  

One time I sent a poem to a contest and it placed second place (and earned a little prize money). I was thrilled. Then I a while later I got a note from an editor who loved that poem after seeing it in the contest anthology and wanted to run it in his magazine. Of course I said yes (and got a free copy of said magazine with my poem in it.). Then about a year later I got notice that my poem had also been selected for their ten-year-anniversary issue (and I got another free copy of that anthology issue). So that little poem made the rounds quite well. 

Be really careful if you do send the same work to the same editor again . . . you could also get kept out altogether-- some keep careful records of who's violated their guidelines. My poem was subbed three times in my ignorance and the editor was one of the best people so I wasn't penalized. But on the other hand (why is there always another hand?) I have a friend who accidentally subbed her work a second time to a journal and was told she would never be able to have work published in his publication-- he kept careful records. She tried to reason with him about her mistake but he refused to listen to her excuse. 

But on the other hand (yet _another_ hand) I also know someone who claims to refuse to stick with any editor's guidelines. He claims he'll submit where he wants to, when he wants to, and however many times he wants to, regardless of editor wishes or guidelines. (Personally, I don't think that's right of the writer but he didn't ask my opinion.:-D


----------



## Tettsuo

Jumping on this train. 

Got a rejection two days after submitting to an agent.  But, I know this manuscript was going to be hard sell, since it contained an instance of sexual abuse.


----------



## Pamelyn Casto

All aboard! Sorry, Tettsuo, about the rejection. Rejections are seldom a pleasant experience. 

But at least you didn't include the info that the work includes smoking too so there's still hope. I watched a series the other night and it included scenes of murder, rape, sex scenes, false conviction, heavy cursing, and more and no one saw fit to warn me (as general viewer). But the beginning of the film warned me there would be the smoking. I was warned about that single act. Seems odd somehow to warn the viewer about just that one thing.   

Best of luck to you when you send it back out again.  That's the *real* name of the game, I think-- looking it over again after rejection, fixing or improving what might need fixing or improving, and then sending it back out again to someone else who might see its actual value. I heard that the _Get Shorty_ author (name escapes me temporarily) was rejected by an unbelievable number of times (75 times comes to mind-- but I'm working from memory again so beware!) before someone saw the need for the work and for the film. 

So many manuscripts, so little time.
---------------------------------------------------------
PS-- After posting this I looked up the missing info. The author of _Get Shorty_ is Elmore Leonard. But I wasn't able to find the number of times that piece was submitted and rejected. I would almost bet that it was seventy-five times before it was finally accepted.


----------



## EternalGreen

Tiamat said:


> Well I woke up this morning to a rejection from Hypnos, but a maybe from Wyldblood. I'm assuming the latter only emailed me because their website says they respond to all submissions within 14 days and today is day 14. (That's really awesome of them, for the record.) So they replied and said they loved it and asked to hold it for a bit longer while they make their final selections. I said yes of course, because duh (and re: the sim sub conversation, I reiterated that the same story is still pending one other place, because etiquette). That said, every time I've gotten a "maybe," it has always turned into a no later. Here's hoping that trend gets broken...



But that's good news! It means you are at least a good writer (probably). Publishers just want things that are SO specific.


----------



## EternalGreen

Slightly off-topic, but sometimes I browse submission guidelines and really get *shocked* at the things they *actually have to say*, like "don't try to sell us your D&D character's backstory"(wow!).


----------



## Lee Messer

Had a bunch of rejections but no suggestions. Some even said it was well written, but that was a lie. Turns out, all my life i've been writing technical, and data reports. Key thing here, while I may be well spoken, I wasn't familiar with writing dialogue.

The grammar while consistent. Was consistently wrong in punctuation. So... it got rejected. Now, I can't resubmit anything until I am absolutely sure of the result. I've been using software, and researching the proper usage of commas and periods for quotations. I'm hoping it's fixed.

All of the other submissions cannot be resubmitted though. ouch.

I'm told it's an awesome book though, just needs polished. "So here I am. Stuck in the middle with you." -Steeler's Wheel


----------



## Tiamat

Lee Messer said:


> Had a bunch of rejections but no suggestions. Some even said it was well written, but that was a lie. Turns out, all my life i've been writing technical, and data reports. Key thing here, while I may be well spoken, I wasn't familiar with writing dialogue.
> 
> The grammar while consistent. Was consistently wrong in punctuation. So... it got rejected. Now, I can't resubmit anything until I am absolutely sure of the result. I've been using software, and researching the proper usage of commas and periods for quotations. I'm hoping it's fixed.
> 
> All of the other submissions cannot be resubmitted though. ouch.
> 
> I'm told it's an awesome book though, just needs polished. "So here I am. Stuck in the middle with you." -Steeler's Wheel


Needing polished isn't a bad place to be though. It's a direction that doesn't mean "scrap the whole thing and write something new!"



EternalGreen said:


> Slightly off-topic, but sometimes I browse submission guidelines and really get *shocked* at the things they *actually have to say*, like "don't try to sell us your D&D character's backstory"(wow!).


You'd think they wouldn't have to say stuff like that--but then again, I'm certain there's a market out there that specifically wants D&D-related stuff. There's a market out there that wants just about anything a writer can dish out. Now, whether they pay for it or not is a totally different story.


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## Pamelyn Casto

Lee, this is likely bad advice I'm about to share but I thought the words were quite funny when I heard a character in the film Get Shorty say (words written by Elmore Leonard-- a writer I admire) what a writer needs to do is "write the story and then give it to someone else to put in the commas and shit." I guess sometimes a writer's gotta do what a writer's gotta do.:-D Hope you get a chuckle out of those words too. 

And it IS possible to have someone else take care of the points you (or any of us) might be missing. I'm going through the trial process as we speak by having someone --and I'll likely soon be paying that someone--to edit my book manuscript. The test-run shows he's pretty danged good at calling attention to what needs fixing in my work. 

Dialogue's not easy to write, even aside from the punctuation usually involved. I read somewhere the key is to NEVER reproduce actual human speech either. Instead it's best to listen carefully to what people say, get a good feel for the process, then work to turn it into the "spirit" of what people say (not their actual speech). This particular well-known writer talking about dialogue also says it's the most difficult part of novels to write well. So the difficulty with writing dialogue doesn't rest with you alone. Most of us have that problem and we have to keep working on improving the way we write it.  Yet I'd also guess that even if we finally become the BEST at writing dialogue, that still won't give us any certainty or guarantees in the publishing world. 

Best of luck to you, Lee. And to all of us. I truly think it helps a lot in dealing with writer isolation and confusion to be able to come to a place like this and talk about the difficulty of writing for a potentially paying audience.


----------



## Lee Messer

For D&D I'd get a petition from peers, and then approach an actual store that is franchised. I've seen them. Much of my inspiration comes from the strange people who play. The player itself has the needed quirks to flesh out odd characters. It's built into their personailties. I see a lot of theater students there, but I never frequent any one place often. I might play a game or two to get closer, but it doesn't take long to know them. Good people usually.

Get the petition to show it is liked. Might even want you to make it into a module for gameplay. Once published. Reach out from there. It'll take some time though to get the first one done. I used to create tech for LARPers, not much of a LARPer myself, but they absolutely loved me. Players would cross state lines to get some of the equipment I came up with. They called it "CypherTech". That was long before I decided to write though. Probably why I never get writer's block. I can put out 10,000 words in one day when I'm really going. I have difficulty getting too deep into some of what they do there. I'm more of a creator than an actor. They're all actors if you can see my meaning.

Anyway, yeah... I love watching people.


----------



## luckyscars

Tiamat said:


> You'd think they wouldn't have to say stuff like that--but then again, I'm certain there's a market out there that specifically wants D&D-related stuff. There's a market out there that wants just about anything a writer can dish out. Now, whether they pay for it or not is a totally different story.



Yeah, I think a lot of times we tend to take rejections as reflective of the writing itself. To some extent, that's reasonable: Poor writing doesn't get published.

But...whether something gets accepted or not is ultimately down to whether it has a market that is profitable (or, at least, popular enough to be worth the effort). That can be totally unrelated to the writing itself.

A terrible story will likely never be accepted no matter what its about, that's obvious. What's less obvious is that a relatively _mediocre story_ that fits well with current reader tastes and interests probably still stands a better chance of being accepted than a _really good _story that just misses its mark for other reasons not related to quality -- perhaps because it's an old fashioned style, perhaps because it doesn't fit well into a genre or the genre in question isn't popular anymore, perhaps because it's too long/too short, perhaps because there was something problematic about the subject matter. Whatever the reason, if it just doesn't check the boxes of what is perceived as salable to an established readership, I don't think it matters much if it's a good story or not.

I don't want to bang on about it too much, but I can't emphasize how good a couple of the stories I have failed to publish ANYWHERE really were. I mean, they really were good, so much better than the stuff I have sold in many cases, and I was flummoxed by it...right up until I read more about the publishing industry and, more importantly, recognized what matters actually goes beyond quality. Quality, unfortunately, is a given expectation. Quality isn't nearly enough.

The stories I have sold were all ones where the target reader was obvious from the get go, where there was really no doubt about the kind of person who would read it and where I managed -- either consciously or not -- to write according to those expectations. The stories I have not sold were ones that I did not write with that in mind (or wrote in avoidance of it) and, crucially, still cannot properly place in the market because they were undefinable. I look at those stories now and scratch my head and think "as much as I like this...I can't imagine a lot of ordinary people would." That is a death blow.

This is why stuff like proper understanding of genre, thoughtful title choice, familiarity with modern reading trends, attention to sensitivities and careful handling of volatile subject matter are actually important and the people who pretend such things don't matter simply because they 'shouldn't matter' should not be listened to IMO. You start on the 'anything goes in MY story' trip, you're destined to have a difficult time publishing anything outside of Create Space. Which, fine, but please don't inflict that fate on others through silly advice that basically comes down to 'fuck 'em'.

Sucks, but we gotta be humble. And flexible.


----------



## Taylor

Pamelyn Casto said:


> Lee, this is likely bad advice I'm about to share but I thought the words were quite funny when I heard a character in the film Get Shorty say (words written by Elmore Leonard-- a writer I admire) what a writer needs to do is "write the story and then give it to someone else to put in the commas and shit." I guess sometimes a writer's gotta do what a writer's gotta do.:-D Hope you get a chuckle out of those words too.



Yes!



Pamelyn Casto said:


> Dialogue's not easy to write, even aside from the punctuation usually involved. I read somewhere the key is to NEVER reproduce actual human speech either. Instead it's best to listen carefully to what people say, get a good feel for the process, then work to turn it into the "spirit" of what people say (not their actual speech). This particular well-known writer talking about dialogue also says it's the most difficult part of novels to write well. So the difficulty with writing dialogue doesn't rest with you alone. Most of us have that problem and we have to keep working on improving the way we write it.  Yet I'd also guess that even if we finally become the BEST at writing dialogue, that still won't give us any certainty or guarantees in the publishing world.



Dialogue is the hardest to write for me for sure.  But as a reader, I prefer reading much of the story in dialogue, so I force myself as a writer to use as much dialogue as possible.  

I think one thing that makes it difficult is that you can't put in all the normal mundane stuff that people say, because that's boring to read.  So you have to pluck out the gems from the likely conversation, and then put it together in a way that still sounds realistic.  So it's basically fragments of a conversation.  

You also have to make work with timing.  Like if your conversation takes place in a restaurant and then you want to have them arrive together and leave together.  You have to fill it in because you can't include everythign said in an hour or so that they spent in the cafe.  So "they continued to discuss the weekend", or "after they finished eating"...etc.   

And then, if you want to bring in different personalities, you have to think about how they would react to each other.  Does one have a sense of humour?  So the other is always laughing.  Is one more talkative than the other?  Then how do you keep the conversation balanced?  

I'm probably way off topic for this thread, but it's an interesting challenge writing good dialogue.


----------



## Tiamat

luckyscars said:


> Yeah, I think a lot of times we tend to take rejections as reflective of the writing itself. To some extent, that's reasonable: Poor writing doesn't get published.
> 
> But...whether something gets accepted or not is ultimately down to whether it has a market that is profitable (or, at least, popular enough to be worth the effort). That can be totally unrelated to the writing itself.
> 
> A terrible story will likely never be accepted no matter what its about, that's obvious. What's less obvious is that a relatively _mediocre story_ that fits well with current reader tastes and interests probably still stands a better chance of being accepted than a _really good _story that just misses its mark for other reasons not related to quality -- perhaps because it's an old fashioned style, perhaps because it doesn't fit well into a genre or the genre in question isn't popular anymore, perhaps because it's too long/too short, perhaps because there was something problematic about the subject matter. Whatever the reason, if it just doesn't check the boxes of what is perceived as salable to an established readership, I don't think it matters much if it's a good story or not.
> 
> I don't want to bang on about it too much, but I can't emphasize how good a couple of the stories I have failed to publish ANYWHERE really were. I mean, they really were good, so much better than the stuff I have sold in many cases, and I was flummoxed by it...right up until I read more about the publishing industry and, more importantly, recognized what matters actually goes beyond quality. Quality, unfortunately, is a given expectation. Quality isn't nearly enough.
> 
> The stories I have sold were all ones where the target reader was obvious from the get go, where there was really no doubt about the kind of person who would read it and where I managed -- either consciously or not -- to write according to those expectations. The stories I have not sold were ones that I did not write with that in mind (or wrote in avoidance of it) and, crucially, still cannot properly place in the market because they were undefinable. I look at those stories now and scratch my head and think "as much as I like this...I can't imagine a lot of ordinary people would." That is a death blow.
> 
> This is why stuff like proper understanding of genre, thoughtful title choice, familiarity with modern reading trends, attention to sensitivities and careful handling of volatile subject matter are actually important and the people who pretend such things don't matter simply because they 'shouldn't matter' should not be listened to IMO. You start on the 'anything goes in MY story' trip, you're destined to have a difficult time publishing anything outside of Create Space. Which, fine, but please don't inflict that fate on others through silly advice that basically comes down to 'fuck 'em'.
> 
> Sucks, but we gotta be humble. And flexible.


This is spot on. As we've discussed elsewhere in this thread, The New Yorker is considered to be the white whale of short fiction markets. I'm a subscriber of theirs and I like to consider myself a person of relatively broad tastes in fiction. All that said, I only like about 50% of the stories they publish--if even that many. Publishing is such a subjective business. Even if you get a rejection that says, "This is absolute trash. Do yourself a favor and set it on fire," odds are still relatively good that someone else thinks the story is freaking brilliant.


----------



## luckyscars

Tiamat said:


> This is spot on. As we've discussed elsewhere in this thread, The New Yorker is considered to be the white whale of short fiction markets. I'm a subscriber of theirs and I like to consider myself a person of relatively broad tastes in fiction. All that said, I only like about 50% of the stories they publish--if even that many. Publishing is such a subjective business. Even if you get a rejection that says, "This is absolute trash. Do yourself a favor and set it on fire," odds are still relatively good that someone else thinks the story is freaking brilliant.



Oh yeah, some of what gets in the New Yorker is awful. Then again, lots of 'really good' authors are also trash...to me.


----------



## Lee Messer

I finally got to post my first book in the beta readers section. Check it out if you want to see what my project is.


----------



## luckyscars

Taylor said:


> Dialogue is the hardest to write for me for sure.  But as a reader, I prefer reading much of the story in dialogue, so I force myself as a writer to use as much dialogue as possible.
> 
> I think one thing that makes it difficult is that you can't put in all the normal mundane stuff that people say, because that's boring to read.  So you have to pluck out the gems from the likely conversation, and then put it together in a way that still sounds realistic.  So it's basically fragments of a conversation.
> 
> You also have to make work with timing.  Like if your conversation takes place in a restaurant and then you want to have them arrive together and leave together.  You have to fill it in because you can't include everythign said in an hour or so that they spent in the cafe.  So "they continued to discuss the weekend", or "after they finished eating"...etc.
> 
> And then, if you want to bring in different personalities, you have to think about how they would react to each other.  Does one have a sense of humour?  So the other is always laughing.  Is one more talkative than the other?  Then how do you keep the conversation balanced?
> 
> I'm probably way off topic for this thread, but it's an interesting challenge writing good dialogue.



Dialogue's weird. When I started writing I had a kind of phobia about it, which I think was partly down to not really being comfortable with the formatting (I was fairly ignorant regarding grammar) but also I just...didn't feel comfortable with it. I think because most of us by the time we start writing fiction are pretty well schooled in regular prose through essays and stuff so just describing things was always pretty easy for me. Dialogue, though, isn't really something I was ever taught much and certainly not something I had ever done before I tried writing my first story.

So I avoided dialogue for a good couple of years of tinkering, always sticking to short stories written in a way that didn't necessitate it. Of course, that's pretty limiting so eventually I bit the bullet. I then wrote a bunch of stories that had 'dialogue' but it was really pretty bad -- like, extremely rudimentary sort of doing the bare minimum, like this:



> _Blah blah blah __ blah blah __ blah blah __ blah blah then he saw the old man. __Hello old man, he said.
> Hello, said the old man.
> How are you.
> I am good.
> Good_.
> _blah blah __blah blah __blah blah...
> _


After more practice, I started to really love dialogue. It's still my favorite part of writing, to the point I sometimes make conversations go on too long or try to make them too convoluted. I find writing dialogue now to be the part of the story that feels the most alive, if that makes sense? A good dialogue starts to feel like a musical jam or drunken dance, you don't have to really think about it but can feel it. When it's good, you hear the voices speaking.

So I'm not sure how long you've been writing for but I would say it's something that will change and possibly quite dramatically. I believe that if you can talk and listen, you can write dialogue.


----------



## Pamelyn Casto

Good idea, Taylor, to try to write much of a story in dialogue. Ever go dialogue only? 

To practice I enjoy writing stories of nothing BUT dialogue. I stole the idea from Donald Barthelme. One his stories I read was dialogue only and it even dispensed with the commas and quotation marks. In the story that caught my eye ("On The Steps of the Conservatory," if memory serves correctly) he had just two speakers and separated their speech by a dash at the beginning of each speaker's section.

Practice in writing dialogue-only stories also helps avoid the Tom Swifty type dialogue too. As in "I forgot what I was supposed to buy," Tom said listlessly. Or in "I'm no good at playing darts," Tom said aimlessly. (Although I do get a kick out of a good Tom Swifty.)


----------



## luckyscars

My find-an-agent journey so far for my new novel. I started submitting the queries/synopses/samples in mid-July so about a month later in:

19 submissions total sent (I paused submitting last week to start a new project)...

...of which 

9 rejections
    - 6 'wasn't the right book for me'
    - 1 Not taking new clients
    - 1 stated 'didn't engage with the voice'
    - 1 praised the book but advised they aren't the right fit for genre -- referred to another agent at same agency

2 requests for full (1 just received today)

8 still waiting for a response


----------



## Tiamat

luckyscars said:


> My find-an-agent journey so far for my new novel. I started submitting the queries/synopses/samples in mid-July so about a month later in:
> 
> 19 submissions total sent (I paused submitting last week to start a new project)...
> 
> ...of which
> 
> 9 rejections
> - 6 'wasn't the right book for me'
> - 1 Not taking new clients
> - 1 stated 'didn't engage with the voice'
> - 1 praised the book but advised they aren't the right fit for genre -- referred to another agent at same agency
> 
> 2 requests for full (1 just received today)
> 
> 8 still waiting for a response


Well that's all sorts of awesome. I mean, nine rejections less so, but two requests for full feels like it requires at least the first few steps of a happy dance.


----------



## luckyscars

Tiamat said:


> Well that's all sorts of awesome. I mean, nine rejections less so, but two requests for full feels like it requires at least the first few steps of a happy dance.



Definitely! I honestly tend toward believing a single acceptance (it's not really an acceptance, but it's not a rejection yet at least!) is generally a fluke so two definitely feels more vindicating. At the very least it means my query and sample is working


----------



## Taylor

luckyscars said:


> Dialogue's weird. When I started writing I had a kind of phobia about it, which I think was partly down to not really being comfortable with the formatting (I was fairly ignorant regarding grammar) but also I just...didn't feel comfortable with it. I think because most of us by the time we start writing fiction are pretty well schooled in regular prose through essays and stuff so just describing things was always pretty easy for me. Dialogue, though, isn't really something I was ever taught much and certainly not something I had ever done before I tried writing my first story.
> 
> So I avoided dialogue for a good couple of years of tinkering, always sticking to short stories written in a way that didn't necessitate it. Of course, that's pretty limiting so eventually I bit the bullet. I then wrote a bunch of stories that had 'dialogue' but it was really pretty bad -- like, extremely rudimentary sort of doing the bare minimum, like this:
> 
> After more practice, I started to really love dialogue. It's still my favorite part of writing, to the point I sometimes make conversations go on too long or try to make them too convoluted. I find writing dialogue now to be the part of the story that feels the most alive, if that makes sense? A good dialogue starts to feel like a musical jam or drunken dance, you don't have to really think about it but can feel it. When it's good, you hear the voices speaking.
> 
> So I'm not sure how long you've been writing for but I would say it's something that will change and possibly quite dramatically. I believe that if you can talk and listen, you can write dialogue.



When I said hard, I didn't mean I didn't enjoy it.  I just think it takes more creativity.  But like you, I love writing dialogue, and I do hear the voices speaking....that's the hard part...it takes more concentration.

And after I've writtien a good conversation...I feel incredibly statisfied with myself...lol!!


----------



## Theglasshouse

A rejection letter which sounds encouraging I received today.
Dear (me),

Thank you very much for submitting, but I'm sorry to say I can't accept "(erased the title since it can be searched with google on the web and I workshopped it here)" for (publication name omitted). There are some fine points made here, about the blurry intersection of humanity and technology, and more importantly, there is a palpable care for the subject matter at hand, evident in the passion with which you dissect it.
That said, precisely because the subjects you are dealing with are so simultaneously so delicate and so powerful, I wish there had been more subtlety in your approach to them, which would have benefitted the overall story. Maybe slowing it down, or infusing more scenes of introspection rather than dialogue could be one way of dong this.
I hope this helps. Please try us with another piece again in the future?
Sincerely,
(name omitted) 
(publisher's name omitted) Editorial Staff
 A close call. It sounds like to me they wanted less dialogue and more reflection by the main character in the scene. I don't know what else they could have meant. It's clear when I write a positive theme that my odds increase of getting published. It's much better than a cynical view of the world.


----------



## Tiamat

Sounds like the best kind of rejection. (Not that anyone likes rejections, but silver linings and all that). An encouraging personal rejection with some solid feedback. I got a personal rejection yesterday for a humor piece I subbed, and the feedback I got basically boiled down to, "We just didn't think it was funny." I'll take your sort of rejection over mine any day.


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Cosmic Roots and Eldritch Shores are awesome rejectors, because they'll give you all the editor's notes if you ask. So I got a rejection from them, but with feedback from six different readers (The readers didn't all agree, of course!). I love it because it not only helps improve your piece, it gives you a feel for the reading process, different tastes, how your writing affects people in different ways. Very useful.


----------



## Taylor

Ok, so this just happened!!

I read that Margaret Atwood said it was important for novelists to write short stories so that you get some short term recognition. Coming home on the ferry last week, I picked up the local free publication for the small city I was traveling from. I thought it was a good mix of news and personal interest stories. There was an announcement of a new editor taking the role as news editor.

I sent her a nice congratulatory email, and praised her on her significant background. She has strong credentials and writes novels herself.

I told her that I would be moving to the area and that I was currently writing a novel, but looking to contribute to a periodical in some way. I attached a sample of two previously published articles, ones that had been highly praised.

I'm not sure what I expected, but not what I got! Within minutes I got an email that said:

_"Hi Taylor,_

_Thank you for the kind words._

_We are not currently accepting submissions from writers, but I will happily keep your name on file._

_Good luck with your novel!_

_Cathy McNeil"_

The first thing that came to mind is the rejections you folks have been talking about. This is the first time I have received a rejection. Typically I am asked to submit articles to professional magazines. I don't know how busy she is, but it seems to me in a small town when communicating with a taxpayer, a bit more finesse is required, especially when you are only providing a free newspaper that survives on local support.

Is this normal?

What else, might I expect?

Is there something else I should have said, not said or done in the first email?

What would you do next?


----------



## Tiamat

That does look a lot like a form rejection. I'm not sure there's necessarily anything different you should have done though. You reached out and tried to find an "in" with this new person, and unfortunately she shot you down. She could have made her rejection a little more fluffy if she were so inclined, but I don't think the bare bones of her email is unprofessional or even atypical for that sort of thing. (Though I have little experience with this sort of query, I imagine non-responses to be fairly common as well.) And maybe she really will keep your name on file. I don't know that I would "do" anything here. If anything, send a quick email to say thanks for the response (though this is not needed, IMO) and get back to writing. 

On the bright side, the first rejection probably sucks the most, so that one's out of the way! If you have any stories ready to be subbed, I'd recommend doing so. An acceptance letter takes the sting out of all the rejections that came before it.


----------



## Darren White

This is very normal, it is even a kind rejection 

I get these rejections regularly, I even do NOT get rejections, but silence.

As Flashes editor, I am trying to give people a decent reply, but that is not always possible. When the amount of submitted work is overwhelming, I am glad to be able to send out a semi-automated response.

Try not to see it as a personal thing. Keep writing and submitting.


----------



## john1298

One has the positive side of abrupt refusals - there are no unnecessary hopes, you just take up the job again.


----------



## Taylor

john1298 said:


> One has the positive side of abrupt refusals - there are no unnecessary hopes, you just take up the job again.



Yes thank you John...and so I will!


----------



## ehbowen

First four queries (all to the same agency, my very first choice) sent today...will any of them connect? Fingers crossed!


----------



## luckyscars

ehbowen said:


> First four queries (all to the same agency, my very first choice) sent today...will any of them connect? Fingers crossed!



You sent four queries to one agency? You’re typically not supposed to do that...


----------



## ehbowen

luckyscars said:


> You sent four queries to one agency? You’re typically not supposed to do that...



Okay. Live and learn. But it was to four agents at a major agency who were listed as being willing to consider open submissions, and if I could pick any agency to represent me it would be this one. I am being honest about that. We'll see if that gets me anywhere.


----------



## luckyscars

ehbowen said:


> Okay. Live and learn. But it was to four agents at a major agency who were listed as being willing to consider open submissions, and if I could pick any agency to represent me it would be this one. I am being honest about that. We'll see if that gets me anywhere.



I would suggest you check their submission guidelines right away (should always do this) and see if they mention a policy on it. If they don't mention a policy, I would reach out to them and check if it's a problem.

 Different agencies are different but the general rule is you can query multiple agents (and you should) but only one per agency at a time. This is because agents don't want to be in competition with others at their same organization, for obvious reasons. If/when an agent rejects, you may be able to query another agent at their company, or they may have a rule that you cannot -- they may share work internally, negating the need for multiple queries.

Bottom line is you don't want to flout the rules on this stuff. At best, it makes it seem like you're unsure on the etiquette and, at worst, some agencies will see it as spamming and actually blacklist you. I don't think that's very usual (and it's pretty harsh) but that would be super unfortunate, especially if you really like the agency. 

https://jetreidliterary.blogspot.com/2018/05/querying-another-agent-at-same-agency.html?m=1

https://bookendsliterary.com/2016/09/29/multiple-submissions-to-the-same-agency/


----------



## Golden_Age

I started submitting a few months ago (in the UK). So far I've received six straight rejections and a few I'm waiting to hear back from. Not sure whether to rework the opening based on this and no personalised feedback! The opening was longlisted in an established first chapter competition this year, so it makes me wonder what needs changing (something obviously does but no idea what).


----------



## Tiamat

Golden_Age said:


> I started submitting a few months ago (in the UK). So far I've received six straight rejections and a few I'm waiting to hear back from. Not sure whether to rework the opening based on this and no personalised feedback! The opening was longlisted in an established first chapter competition this year, so it makes me wonder what needs changing (something obviously does but no idea what).


Could just be that you haven't found the right market/agent yet though. Six seems like a relatively small number as a start.




			
				Tiamat said:
			
		

> Well I woke up this morning to a rejection from Hypnos, but a maybe from Wyldblood. I'm assuming the latter only emailed me because their website says they respond to all submissions within 14 days and today is day 14. (That's really awesome of them, for the record.) So they replied and said they loved it and asked to hold it for a bit longer while they make their final selections. I said yes of course, because duh (and re: the sim sub conversation, I reiterated that the same story is still pending one other place, because etiquette). That said, every time I've gotten a "maybe," it has always turned into a no later. Here's hoping that trend gets broken...


Well for the first time ever, I had a "maybe" become a "yes." Wyldblood bought my frog prince rewrite. It's going in their January issue. Yay!


----------



## EternalGreen

I had a 8-cent-per-word publisher say that, while they liked the story, it's setting, and characters, the editors would have preferred slightly more character interaction towards the beginning to increase the emotional conflict within the protagonist.

You might say it's hard to make it in the SFWA-qualifying market.


----------



## Tiamat

I support personal rejections 100%.


----------



## EternalGreen

If it's just a matter taste, that bodes well for my chances of selling the story elsewhere, I guess. (I hope.)


----------



## Darren White

As for reading submission guidelines. It's surprising and disappointing to see how many people don't take the time to fully read those. If I submit somewhere, it's usually the first I do, and I jot down everything they ask of me. 

For Flashes, about 1 in every 3 submissions don't bother to look at what is asked. For me it is a huge reason to reject. At first I took the time to explain, but I stopped doing that. If people don't even take the time to familiarise themselves with our very reasonable guidelines, then why should I have to explain the obvious?

For everyone who submits but is rejected, I do my best to point out where the submission fails.


----------



## Pamelyn Casto

Well, Darren White, you're to be commended, valued, praised, kissed even, for taking the time to explain to submitters where a piece fails. I understand being editor is much harder than it used to be because anyone and his bone-head brother can now submit work via the 'net. They don't have to do what the rest of us must do (such as follow guidelines). Instead they just spew their work all over the 'net, completely ignoring anyone and everyone's guidelines. One writer I met says no editor has any right to tell *him* he must stick with their guidelines. That's his choice. Not mine. But people like him do make submitting and editing more difficult for everyone.


----------



## Pamelyn Casto

Clark Cook, have I got the plan for you. Wait until you see my Marketing Strategy (part of the editing job you'll be doing for my book). The strategy helps a ton in getting over rejection. Besides, I don't believe you're *that* sad over it because you're a strong writer and must surely realize not everyone can keep up with a literary stand-out like you. Hey, Hemingway was rejected time and time again because editors claimed some of his best short stories weren't even stories at all. He stuck with it and eventually changed their minds about whether he was a real writer or not-- and changed their ideas of what constitutes a strong short story.


----------



## EternalGreen

I wonder if this is a form rejection. It seems too "nice."

It probably is, though. I imagine they have a list of templates based on how much they liked the rejection.

*"Dear [WRITER]

Thank you for sending '[STORY]' for consideration in [PUBLISHER]. We really enjoyed your story, but we're sorry this isn’t the right story for us right now. We did find much to admire in your work, though, and we hope you'll send us more to consider soon."*


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

I'm almost positive it's a form rejection. Some magazines have 'nice' form rejections, and honestly I think it's a little deceptive. There was a magazine (can't remember which) that sent a letter saying they enjoyed the "language and emotions at play" in something I sent them, but it wasn't right for them then. Encouraged, I sent them something else in a later submission period, and received EXACTLY the same message. 

It's possible they have a list of templates, but, honestly, give me either a personalized rejection or a flat no. Then at least I know whether the market likes my style or not.


----------



## EternalGreen

Detailed form rejections do seem deceptive. I'm pretty sure most writers can see through the bullshit.

It reads like a middle-schooler trying to write a book report when they obviously didn't read the book. "It has characters, themes, and a plot."

Maybe they just want as big of a "slush pile" as they can get and think writers are dumb.


----------



## bdcharles

EternalGreen said:


> I wonder if this is a form rejection. It seems too "nice."
> 
> It probably is, though. I imagine they have a list of templates based on how much they liked the rejection.
> 
> *"Dear [WRITER]
> 
> Thank you for sending '[STORY]' for consideration in [PUBLISHER]. We really enjoyed your story, but we're sorry this isn’t the right story for us right now. We did find much to admire in your work, though, and we hope you'll send us more to consider soon."*



I'd rather have a raging, scathing cutdown. It would at least prove they'd read it, or at least some of it.

I received a four hundred word rejection once. It was a nice surprise but when I got to the end I realised I couldn't really remember what the agent had said. I reread it and it reiterated the same point: that publishing is subjective, and that good is not good enough. I'd much rather the person had said what they didn't like, though it was a good insight into the business.


----------



## Matchu

@eternalgreen...

That is a tier 2 rejection.  They ’enjoyed’ and asked you to contact them again in the future.  It’s better than the ‘is not right for Penfutures...regards, editors...’

You can take some comfort...but ultimately the response is the same...I mean, same as a longlist in competition even, or dropped in the street, no-one will read the story through this avenue.

Move on, harsh..


----------



## luckyscars

I wouldn't read too much into the rejection letters. Unless, like bdcharles says, it's obvious they are responding directly to the work by virtue of including details that could not be part of a template (beyond the title, which proves nothing as it's a copy/paste job). I don't even tend to read them properly. I see the word 'unfortunately' or 'next time' and close the email and forget about it immediately.

I definitely would not assume that some version of "I enjoyed your story..." means they actually did! 'Enjoy' probably means nothing here, it's a courteous little sweetener, a freebie of encouragment. If they actually, genuinely enjoyed it then it's likely (if not necessarily certain) they would have said yes. Because why wouldn't they?

It's no different to when a small child acts in a school play and you end up gushing over how great they were, how excellent the play was, blah blah. It's not a total lie, you might even _mean _it in a sense, but there's no way you'll be jonesing to go see it the next night and it would certainly be very naive to assume the sentiment meant that. This isn't 'enjoyment' in the sense we would like it to be. Enjoyment means obtaining some sort of significant value and people don't tend to pass on books they feel have significant value, unless they're just totally the wrong market or something like that. But then why did you even submit to them?


----------



## Kyle R

EternalGreen said:


> I wonder if this is a form rejection. It seems too "nice."
> 
> It probably is, though. I imagine they have a list of templates based on how much they liked the rejection.
> 
> *"Dear [WRITER]
> 
> Thank you for sending '[STORY]' for consideration in [PUBLISHER]. We really enjoyed your story, but we're sorry this isn’t the right story for us right now. We did find much to admire in your work, though, and we hope you'll send us more to consider soon."*



My memory is a bit foggy right now, but I believe that's a second-tier rejection from _Fractured Lit_. (I could be wrong about the market though, so forgive me if I am.)

A second-tier rejection is a good thing. It means one (or more) slush readers voted your story forward to receive a second reading. It's still a rejection, sure, but it's farther along in the process than most submitters get.

It means you did something right—even if, in the end, it didn't turn out to be the perfect fit.


----------



## EternalGreen

I'm shocked you would correctly identify this as being from _Fractured Literary_. I thought* I* had a good memory. Yours must be almost supernatural.


----------



## Kyle R

Hah! Oh, I wish I had a supernatural memory.

Actually, there are only a handful of flash markets that I've recently submitted to, and _Fractured _is one of them. I've been rejected by them a few times with the standard form response, along with the one you posted, as well. (That's how I know you got a second-tier rejection. I recognized the wording.)

I don't know what's beyond their second-tier rejection, though. Maybe you'll be the one to find out, if you submit to them again! :encouragement:


----------



## Kyle R

luckyscars said:


> I definitely would not assume that some version of "I enjoyed your story..." means they actually did! 'Enjoy' probably means nothing here, it's a courteous little sweetener, a freebie of encouragment. If they actually, genuinely enjoyed it then it's likely (if not necessarily certain) they would have said yes. Because why wouldn't they?



Now you have me imagining all sorts of false-praise rejections that could be sent out. Lol.

"Dear Author,

Thank you for submitting your story for our consideration. All things considered, your story is quite possibly the _best_ work we've read in recent memory!

Unfortunately . . ."


----------



## EternalGreen

Well, I just assumed that, with all your writing about super-heroes, maybe you were one.

A 3rd-tier rejection would probably go something like "we LOVE and would MURDER for your story, but we're going to have to pass, thanks."


----------



## Kyle R

EternalGreen said:


> A 3rd-tier rejection would probably go something like "we LOVE and would MURDER for your story, but we're going to have to pass, thanks."



LOL!

Fourth tier: "We were THIS CLOSE to accepting your story, but after careful review, we realized that there are other submissions that we like better than yours."


----------



## EternalGreen

"We typed out an acceptance letter and were MILLISECONDS away from hitting 'send,' but unfortunately . . ."


----------



## Kyle R

"'Congratulations! Your story has been accepted for publication!' ... is what we _wish _we could say to you. Unfortunately, it's a no."


----------



## luckyscars

It's really hard to assess what a rejection might mean without insider knowledge or multiple rejections from the same place to compare/contrast. 

Personally...I don't feel a whole lot more encouraged by a nice rejection than a blunt one. A rejection is, well, a rejection. There's no such thing as 'almost getting published'. 

I definitely understand others may perceive differently about it but to me it's almost worse if, hypothetically, the rejection implied that they were 'close but just not quite a yes', while another submission rejected it within two minutes with a template that offered no indication and was basically just a straight pass at the first glance. 

The reason I consider it to be almost worse is because 'close but just not a yes' implies that I most likely had _everything_ right except for a handful of crucial aspects that prevented it from being carried it over the line. That's a different kind of tragedy than simply 'not for me thanks', and to me...yeah, it's worse. It suggests that rather than the story simply not being the editor's cup of tea -- which is something that probably no amount of work on my part could have changed -- there were more preventable reasons for the rejection. Reasons which I could have fixed with slightly more work or a different decision. It's the difference between falling short ten feet from the summit and not even making it to base camp. Falling short ten feet from the summit might make you a better climber, but it arguably makes you a worse climber of _that __mountain _because you actually had an opportunity and simply couldn't quite go the distance.

But, of course, it depends how you look at it. You _could_ make a case that a positive reception to a story/ compliments on one's ability is always better than a 'sorry not for me' type of comment, regardless of whether the positivity leads to an actual 'yes' or not. I won't argue with that. I just never personally shared the view. At the end of the day, my self-esteem as a writer does not rest on acceptances and rejections much anyway: I think if I was to allow myself to think of it that way I would find it hard to write at all. 

It's worth remembering that in most cases of form rejection, editors and agents will not have actually read the story in full or even more than a few paragraphs/pages. So extrapolating their opinion on how good or bad the work is, is often pointless -- they did not read it. An editor who offers detailed feedback and/or compliments the work only to ultimately turn it down, on the other hand, can be presumed to have actually read all of it -- in which case their lack of commitment in the end can be read as a more damning indictment.


----------



## Matchu

All the permutations are available to see on reject wiki/wiki rejection - I always forget the exact title of the website.  

Personal rejections can be a boost - tho’ even personal rejections can take the negative spin - meaning you submitted to a tin pot/one man and dog operation where he definitely, absolutely read your story because he has not much else to do...awaiting bi-annual e-pub of sister’s chap book over in Norfolk forest. 

 I’ve had a few of those, making new friend with new loser situation.


----------



## Pamelyn Casto

Recently I had a really good experience with rejection. I submitted a piece to one journal and they promptly rejected it. Then I submitted it to another magazine, a much better market (a higher prestige market), and they immediately accepted it. I'm so glad the first market rejected my work because that helped me get my work into a journal I thought was well above my writing capabilities. (Now and then I like to remind myself that rejection isn't always a bad thing.)


----------



## Tiamat

Anybody ever submit to TQR? The readers post public, forum-like comments about the submissions, so you get some pretty good insights as to how your story landed with various readers. A few months ago, mine made it all the way up to the head editor with mostly favorable comments along the way, but the top guy there ultimately rejected the story--not because he didn't think it was solid, but because he thought the subject matter too bleak. It's not an unreasonable criticism of that particular story, and even though they didn't buy the piece, it was still heartening to see that the story landed well with 3/4 readers.


----------



## EternalGreen

The Submission Grinder has blacklisted them on the charge that they post rejection letters publicly without clear consent from the author. Also, the have way too much attitude for me. Not the mention the pay . . .


----------



## Tiamat

Eh, I don't think $50 per story is all that bad. But if you're in this game to make bank, good luck you ma'am.


----------



## Matchu

I sent something to them because they looked funny.  Maybe they will destroy my life?  Yes, fifty dollars, umm, well I've done it now.  Perhaps they have a billion readers, the NEW movement?


----------



## Pamelyn Casto

I just remembered another positive experience with rejection. I sent a prose poem to a publication and it was rejected. A few month's later that same editor contacted me and asked if she could use my piece after all. Of course I said yes and my prose poem was published in the spring of this year.


----------



## JJBuchholz

Tiamat said:


> Anybody ever submit to TQR? The readers post public, forum-like comments about the submissions, so you get some pretty good insights as to how your story landed with various readers.



I'm going to give them a shot. I have a couple stories that might just work for them. I'll let everyone know how it plays out.

-JJB


----------



## Matchu

I got quite excited about them.  But look at it...take a second look...like I should have done.  There's nobody there, the last anthology published 2015 to no review, whatsoever. 

 I really hope I'm wrong.  I hope even they're fledgling/coming back to life.  But from my 'clicks' it appears to be two, or three people.  It's dispiriting, I wish them luck.

...

[or have I missed something, a massive active board?]


----------



## JJBuchholz

Matchu said:


> I got quite excited about them.  But look at it...take a second look...like I should have done.  There's nobody there, the last anthology published 2015 to no review, whatsoever.



I sent a short story to them this morning, and got a response in the late afternoon saying that my story is being read and evaluated.

They are definitely there!

-JJB


----------



## JJBuchholz

This is what I got back from TQR this morning:



> When my boys were little, the only TV shows I censored were WWF wrestling and the Saturday morning G.I. Joe cartoons. The former struck me as sadism for the stupid and the latter imperialism for the idiotic. So, needless to say, my thematic biases against this _Onslaught cap, even if it had been competently penned and edited rather than chock full of mispunctuated speech tags and incorrect and missing words, would have compelled me to spread it on the Floor, urinate and (if Carol would just turn her head) possibly defecate on it so as to impart to its too many pages enough weight and substance that the trebuchet we keep always at the ready here might sling the soggy mass as deep into the Porthole as possible._



Needless to say, I will NEVER send them anything else ever again. 

-JJB


----------



## -xXx-

JJBuchholz said:


> This is what I got back from TQR this morning:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When my boys were little, the only TV shows I censored were WWF  wrestling and the Saturday morning G.I. Joe cartoons. The former struck  me as sadism for the stupid and the latter imperialism for the idiotic.  So, needless to say, my thematic biases against this _Onslaught cap,  even if it had been competently penned and edited rather than chock full  of mispunctuated speech tags and incorrect and missing words, would  have compelled me to spread it on the Floor, urinate and (if Carol would  just turn her head) possibly defecate on it so as to impart to its too  many pages enough weight and substance that the trebuchet we keep always  at the ready here might sling the soggy mass as deep into the Porthole  as possible._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Needless to say, I will NEVER send them anything else ever again.
> 
> -JJB
Click to expand...

*adds to 2021 goals*
*'cuz one solid *wow-that**
*can motivate*
sorry the response was, umm...intensely vivid.
sometimes less is more.

best,


----------



## Darren White

JJBuchholz said:


> Needless to say, I will NEVER send them anything else ever again.


Wow... I'm speechless. What a jerk.


----------



## JJBuchholz

Darren White said:


> Wow... I'm speechless. What a jerk.



I was speechless as well. Then sad, angry, confused. I have NEVER seen any rejection that vile before.

-JJB


----------



## Phil Istine

JJBuchholz said:


> I was speechless as well. Then sad, angry, confused. I have NEVER seen any rejection that vile before.
> 
> -JJB



If the purpose was to prevent you sending them anything else, it's certainly worked, but surely they must realise that with the worldwide web around, their rejection letter might be publicised.  Even if they thought your writing was total crap, there are more professional ways of saying so that would deter you from submitting to them again.
Here's the rub though: due to their rudeness they have deterred others from submitting to them - others who they might wish to publish.
I've just sent them a message - using a fake email address that is very unlikely to belong to anyone.


----------



## PiP

JJBuchholz said:


> This is what I got back from TQR this morning:
> 
> Needless to say, I will NEVER send them anything else ever again.
> 
> -JJB



WoW, JJB! How rude and unprofessional of them.



JJBuchholz said:


> I was speechless as well. Then sad, angry, confused. I have NEVER seen any rejection that vile before.
> 
> -JJB



It is vile.


----------



## JJBuchholz

Phil Istine said:


> Even if they thought your writing was total crap, there are more professional ways of saying so that would deter
> you from submitting to them again.



I'm no stranger to rejections, and I've received some that really hurt. That being said, all the rejections I have received (minus this one) have
maintained an air of professionalism, even when harsh. 

This one was so vile and disgusting, that I had to share it here. I have never seen this before, nor do I wish it on anyone.



Phil Istine said:


> I've just sent them a message - using a fake email address that is very unlikely to belong to anyone.



Interesting. I wouldn't mind knowing how this turns out.

-JJB


----------



## Pamelyn Casto

This rejection looks like it came from a thoroughly nasty individual. I think it's disgusting what he said to you, JJB. How I wish people could stop even looking at their guidelines. It's too bad they can get so many hits and can set up so many people to try to destroy their belief in their work. A professional "no thank you" would have served just fine as a rejection but this jerk of a person had to take it into deliberate nastiness. JJB will never submit work there again and I will never even take a look there now (thanks to the results JB posted). That's unfortunate because it by our refusals to take a look he's hurting the poets he's published already. I hope they take notice of his nastiness and demand that he remove their work. I don't know why cruel comments have become so "cool," so in style lately. Enough with the cruelty!


----------



## Matchu

Yes, it was a most unpleasant post about your write on their public forum.  However, that is their _thing_, it is what they do.

If it is any consolation my own personal public rejection/humiliation  upon their forum made me never want to ever write anything ever ever again, affected my mood/ego/maybe my mental health considerably for several days, including today...the ‘yes, I am a jerk’ sensation, kind of thing.

So...writers be wary of TQR :/


----------



## JJBuchholz

Pamelyn Casto said:


> This rejection looks like it came from a thoroughly nasty individual. I think it's disgusting what he said to you, JJB. How I wish people could stop even looking at their guidelines. It's too bad they can get so many hits and can set up so many people to try to destroy their belief in their work. A professional "no thank you" would have served just fine as a rejection but this jerk of a person had to take it into deliberate nastiness.



As writers, we are used to rejection letters that come in many forms. I myself have been rejected many, many times in the last four years since I started sending my
work out to publishers. That being said, these people went above and beyond (for the wrong reasons) what other publishers would do. I received some stern rejections,
with one even telling me that, "We don't publish sub-par work like yours."

That's fine, I can take that. But this rejection and the language it contained was so vile, the likes of which I have never encountered before. There is absolutely no
reason for anyone to be like this.



Pamelyn Casto said:


> I don't know why cruel comments have become so "cool," so in style lately. Enough with the cruelty!



Some people seem to get off on being nasty and hurtful to other people. The reason why this bothered me so much is because I've had a rough few years, and
2020 has been the roughest ride so far (even though I got something published this year) and has left me completely stressed out and freaked about almost everything
right now. Writing is the only thing keeping me going, and to see that response was just....disheartening.

I really appreciate everyone here, as well as the kind words from all you. Thank you.

-JJB


----------



## BornForBurning

> If the purpose was to prevent you sending them anything else, it's certainly worked, but surely they must realise that with the worldwide web around, their rejection letter might be publicised


TQR publicizes their rejection letters. I agree that it's disgusting, vile, evil, etc. But I also agree with Matchu...what were you expecting? Those guys are an open book. Take it or leave it. Don't play their game and then get upset when you get slammed by their rules. And for the record, I leave it. I don't believe in supporting that kind of thing. But regardless, see above. It's like people that go on imageboards to scream about how terrible imageboards are. What's even the bloody point?


----------



## JJBuchholz

BornForBurning said:


> TQR publicizes their rejection letters. I agree that it's disgusting, vile, evil, etc. But I also agree with Matchu...what were you expecting? Those guys are an open book. Take it or leave it.



As I have already mentioned, I'm used to getting rejection letters, and have never before felt the need to talk about them. This one was disturbing however, and it was more
a heads-up measure for my fellow writers here looking for places to submit more than anything else. There are rejections, and then there is something like the response I got that is more vile and disgusting than I have ever seen before.

Publishers (no matter who they are) should have a level of professionalism as well as morals before doing something to someone like they did to me. There should be no place
in publishing for that kind of inflammatory critique. 



BornForBurning said:


> Don't play their game and then get upset when you get slammed by their rules. And for the record, I leave it. I don't believe in supporting that kind of thing. But regardless, see above.



I was upset because it was completely uncalled for. No writer needs to see anything like that, period. Pardon me for having enough respect for all the other writers in this
community to warn them.

-JJB


----------



## luckyscars

JJBuchholz said:


> As I have already mentioned, I'm used to getting rejection letters, and have never before felt the need to talk about them. This one was disturbing however, and it was more
> a heads-up measure for my fellow writers here looking for places to submit more than anything else. There are rejections, and then there is something like the response I got that is more vile and disgusting than I have ever seen before.
> 
> Publishers (no matter who they are) should have a level of professionalism as well as morals before doing something to someone like they did to me. There should be no place
> in publishing for that kind of inflammatory critique.
> 
> 
> 
> I was upset because it was completely uncalled for. No writer needs to see anything like that, period. Pardon me for having enough respect for all the other writers in this
> community to warn them.
> 
> -JJB



I dunno, man, I think you're taking it kind of personally. It sounds like this may be part of their schtick, an actual 'creative product' of theirs.

 I went on the site and it's pretty obvious these guys are 'out there' and the fact you were so blindsided, honestly, suggests a lack of research on your part. It's like a seventy year old Christian going to a Marilyn Manson concert and complaining about the blasphemy. This should not have been all that surprising.

The question for me is...does their feedback actually have merit? I don't mean is it constructive -- you aren't entitled to constructive criticism -- but are the things they are mentioning as reasons for their, uh, _dislike _possibly legitimate at the foundation? If not, it's valueless trolling and should be ignored. But it just might be accurate. If so, it's feedback and as valid as if they wrote it 'professionally'. 

It's not NICE feedback, obviously, but let's be real honest here and say...so what? So what if it's 'vile' or 'disgusting'? I don't think I would submit there either, but one could look say that at least they are 'being consistent' and perhaps 'being honest'. If nothing else, you probably will never get a rejection quite so creative. People are entitled to communicate however they like and you are obvious entitled to respond however you would like. I would consider it simply another publishing house. Some aren't worth doing business with, but I don't think colorful rejections are necessarily the deal breaker.

I honestly would prefer this over generic 'opinions are subjective' stuff, the "though this is isn't for us we encourage you to resubmit...' bullshit that populates half my submissions inbox. Look, if you're going to reject me because you don't like my story I would rather you just say that bluntly (or, in this case, extremely bluntly) rather than blow smoke up my bum and send me the basic template. Writers should not require encouragement from rejections or anything besides...rejection. 

Look at this way: Their feedback stirred an emotional reaction in you. Harness that energy. Hell, you could even write about it.

Politeness is nice but if this sort of thing hurts you, just wait until you're actually famous.


----------



## Pamelyn Casto

I've had a change of mind on the nasty rejection. I still don't like it, still think it's cruel, and still think it's downright crushing to someone who merely saw a market and sent something that was shat upon in this manner But I also now think it's part of their "schtick" (as does luckyscars) to reject in this way. I can imagine five or ten of us here all sending something to see who got the best, the nastiest, the most creative nasty rejection from this publication. It could be viewed (by some) as a badge of honor of sorts. They know what they're doing and why they're doing it and from what I understand that's part of their reputation-- so we take it or leave it if we decide to submit there. 

At the same time, I'd like to be told my work's not up to someone's standards and what makes it less than satisfactory. Editors, especially those with hundreds, thousands of submissions each month, they just don't have the time to give pointers. That was part of our own job, to do the studying of writing and then do the job of editing and polishing. Then our job is to look into what a particular market wants to see if our own work might fit.  

I always tell myself after a rejection, "Hey, I been throw'd outta better joints than this." We all need our words of comfort. 

I still think such a response could be devastating to an new or inexperienced writer so I'll pass on such a market for my work and wouldn't spend time promoting them either. Yes, this situation CAN be, as luckyscars says, an opportunity to harness the energy generated from the experience. Writing's not easy, marketing's not easy, and dealing with rejection's not easy either. But it's what we writers do-- we keep going.


----------



## Tiamat

Well that was a hell of a rejection. I feel partially responsible here since I'm the one that brought them up in the first place, although I will say that some of the most scathing rejections I've gotten only spurred me to try harder. Here's hoping that you can put your (perfectly understandable) frustration to good use. Sorry, man.


----------



## BornForBurning

> Publishers (no matter who they are) should have a level of professionalism as well as morals before doing something to someone like they did to me. There should be no place in publishing for that kind of inflammatory critique.


I agree, but...TQR aren't going to change their practices just because you call them out for their immorality. In fact, personal experience (on my part) dictates that they probably get that kind of reaction on a weekly, if not daily, basis. They probably even enjoy it. The game is outrage. The game is battle and gut-busting flame wars. Don't like those kind of practices? DON'T POST ON THOSE KINDS OF BOARDS OR SUBMIT TO THOSE KINDS OF EDITORS! Period. If a kid sneers at you and asks if they can smash your cake, you don't slap them. You ignore them. Maybe, _maybe _you politely correct them. 

I appreciate that you might not have been aware of what TQR was before you submitted. I get that. I appreciate the heartbreak, too. Our stories are our children. I'm just calling for a bit more wisdom regarding where we pick our battles. 



> The question for me is...does their feedback actually have merit? I don't mean is it constructive -- you aren't entitled to constructive criticism -- but are the things they are mentioning as reasons for their, uh, _dislike possibly legitimate at the foundation? If not, it's valueless trolling and should be ignored. But it just might be accurate. If so, it's feedback and as valid as if they wrote it 'professionally'._


Certainly, they've made their feedback difficult to receive. They're cultivating a very specific type of audience, an audience that used to be quite prolific and is now being swallowed into the depths of AI-driven moderation and censorship. I don't think JJ is obligated to regard something with objectivity that is inherently odious to regard in the first place (I wouldn't watch a review of my work that had hardcore pornography playing in the background, for example). I think what they're doing is immoral both because it's odious, but also because it isn't being done with the best interest of the writer in mind. I've written some pretty brutal reviews. But the point is to show what the author is doing wrong. Not to say "boy I really hate jingoism and I hate you for being a jingoist." 

Writers must write with the best interest of their audience in mind. Critics must write with the best interests of the writer in mind. Everything else is pure onanism. Yes, I'm also guilty of self-indulgent critique. That doesn't make it right.


----------



## JackSlater28

Really? I would almost love any personal rejection letter. No matter the wording. The worst response, the worst insult is a canned response. Because it shows a level of contempt that they didn't even really look at your work. That you're a maggot not even worth looking at. Pardon my possibly offensive analogy, but a bad handjob is still better than no handjob! People still looked at your work! So you've got at least that going for you. The best response I ever got was a form of wording in which the publishing agency said my work had potential, but they still passed by on it.


----------



## Taylor

JJBuchholz said:


> That's fine, I can take that. But this rejection and the language it contained was so vile, the likes of which I have never encountered before. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to be like this.



So sorry you had to experience this, and you are absolutely right, there is no reason for it. It's indecent to say the least!  

As a CPA, the first thing that came to mind was that there must be some kind of decency law that prevents this type of email.  I have heard of successful legal cases on rejection letters for employment.   Those likely fall to descrimination under the human rights code.  Internet laws have been changing rapidly in the last five years, it would not surprise me if there was something in the works for this.  I haven't found anything yet, but I'll keep looking.   

At the very least, you should expose them as you have here.  It takes courage...so good for you! 

And DON'T let it dishearten you!!


----------



## EternalGreen

A publisher didn't like that my submission: a) was a work of historical fiction, b) was not the preferred length, c) contained multiple forms of supernatural phenomena, d) didn't focus on the story elements they would have preferred.

They didn't mention even one thing they liked but they'd like me to submit again!! (lmao)

This is how publishers are sometimes: polite to a fault. "Please try again," doesn't alway mean "please try again."

People should only sugarcoat things so much. Sugar rots your teeth.


----------



## Monaque

I must admit it would be nice to get a little feedback from those reading my story. I've tried a few times to get short stories published in magazines but you never get anything back, you know, on how to improve maybe. Perhaps there's something about my writing I'm not getting right, that I can't see; it might be nice to know. I get that there's a time factor, that's probably it, now way they have the time to spend on saying to someone how they might improve. So many stories to get through.
It just would be nice, is what I'm trying to say.


----------



## EternalGreen

Monaque said:


> I must admit it would be nice to get a little feedback from those reading my story. I've tried a few times to get short stories published in magazines but you never get anything back, you know, on how to improve maybe. Perhaps there's something about my writing I'm not getting right, that I can't see; it might be nice to know. I get that there's a time factor, that's probably it, now way they have the time to spend on saying to someone how they might improve. So many stories to get through.
> It just would be nice, is what I'm trying to say.



Imagine a fickle reader with a low attention-span who's looking for a reason not to even read your story and, if they do read it, a reason to hate it.

That's most editors. Start with something to impress and you MIGHT get read.


----------



## Monaque

luckyscars said:


> Short story submissions is mainly just fishing. Either the story works for them or it doesn't. I have found that _most _of the time any short story can be published _somewhere _if you submit it to enough places, it's just a question of whether you do submit it enough before tiring of the process and what that 'somewhere' is. Places that pay are harder, obviously, and places that pay at a decent rate are extremely competitive -- and there aren't that many of them.
> 
> A good story submitted to, lets say, 30 different places, will most likely receive an offer from at least one. Sometimes more. One of my stories got four offers, all paid. Imagine the shit-eating grin...
> 
> 'Most' is the operative phrase, though. Some short stories really are unemployable, unfortunately. That may be because the writing just sucks or it may be that it just doesn't 'fit' into the assumed genre. Some subject matter is difficult to publish. Some things editors just aren't comfortable with.
> 
> I have, at this point, four or five short stories that I tried to sell for a long time, ones I believed (and still actually do) that they are good enough; went through the hassle of hundreds of submissions, and eventually gave up, ended up shoving three together into a 'collection' and self-published them because 'why not'. $1 for the 'book'. Self-published sales are next to nothing, I have done no promotion, I knocked them together in a night, but at the end of the day it's either that or have them sit rotting on a hard drive. I don't really care. I published dozens last year on one platform or another so a few duds isn't going to hurt my feelings.
> 
> For the most part, I assume rejection on everything I submit, I even try to make myself look forward to getting the rejection. Sounds weird, but it's really just easier that way. You cannot invest emotionally into any given submission. You have to assume the worst or else it gets too stressful. It's not like I don't believe in the supposed 'power of positive thinking' so much as I am more wary of the cancer of discouragement. If you start to believe you aren't a good writer, you find yourself mired by an inability to write. So, everything I submit I assume the agent/editor will simply not find room for on their list, dwell on it no further than that, and get on with the day.



Perhaps that's my problem then, I'm not being persistent enough in submitting, or spending enough time doing it. I do a couple then get rejected and get a bit fed up, then drop the whole thing for a while, then other things crop up and I completely forget it.
Or you have developed a tough skin. :smile2:


----------



## BornForBurning

> Perhaps that's my problem then, I'm not being persistent enough in submitting, or spending enough time doing it. I do a couple then get rejected and get a bit fed up, then drop the whole thing for a while, then other things crop up and I completely forget it.


I encourage either prolific submitting or highly targeted submitting. Editors have taste, vision. They are artists, just like us, and their mag is their artistic product. Even if what you have is really good, it often isn't going to fit into their vision of what the magazine is supposed to be. I'm more of a prolific submitter. It's worked decently for me. My sister does targeted submitting. Reading a mag, figuring out whether she likes it, whether or not the editors have similar tastes/vision to her own and _then _submitting. I prefer scatter-shot submitting because I've yet to find a magazine besides Strange Horizons that fits inside my own tastes. Unfortunately, Strange Horizons are very liberal, and I'm not. And the more experimental my writing (aka, the closer it gets to what SH publishes), the _less _​liberal it becomes.


----------



## Matchu

A lot of them are such stiffs, with those very wet stories predominating.  And you'd hope to be blown away, but the New Yorker, the Sun, I dunno, the hundred others spinning on our planet boredom, the stories about being American, and gay at the same time, and in Italy of all places zzzzzzzzzzzz dog food nourishment, thank goodness.

Poems about lakes and moonlight.

The world needs to tune in and toe the line.  Don't get me on The Atlantic, 12 month subscription, most irrelevant year of my life [Dentist music].  Poetry still arrives, must have paid by accident.

I'll submit tomorrow


----------



## Monaque

> I encourage either prolific submitting or highly targeted submitting.  Editors have taste, vision. They are artists, just like us, and their  mag is their artistic product. Even if what you have is really good, it  often isn't going to fit into their vision of what the magazine is  supposed to be. I'm more of a prolific submitter. It's worked decently  for me. My sister does targeted submitting. Reading a mag, figuring out  whether she likes it, whether or not the editors have similar  tastes/vision to her own and _then _submitting. I prefer  scatter-shot submitting because I've yet to find a magazine besides  Strange Horizons that fits inside my own tastes. Unfortunately, Strange  Horizons are very liberal, and I'm not. And the more experimental my  writing (aka, the closer it gets to what SH publishes), the _less _​liberal it becomes.



Both of those options really need time I think and I don't have enough of that just at the moment. I did submit to Strange once, although can't remember much about the experience. I tend to go with an idea, pops into my head, just go with that. I'm not really someone who targets really. Also I often read Sci-Fi mags and never seem to get a vibe about what an editor needs specifically, there seem to be a large range of subjects. Perhaps that's just Sci-Fi or maybe my antenna is off somewhat.
Anyway, I'll get back to it at some point.


----------



## Monaque

Matchu said:


> deleted due to repetition crime


I read your original reply actually, since it appeared in my inbox. Hilarious.


----------



## JJBuchholz

Tiamat said:


> Well that was a hell of a rejection. I feel partially responsible here since I'm the one that brought them up in the first place, although I will say that some of the most scathing rejections I've gotten only spurred me to try harder. Here's hoping that you can put your (perfectly understandable) frustration to good use. Sorry, man.



I'm not one to give up on anything, and I'm currently on another publishing blitz right now. I will never stop writing and improving my craft, nor will I ever stop submitting all over the place. It took me years and years just to get two stories published, and if it takes me even longer to get more published, so be it.

I just do not like people that were as vulgar as the incident I mentioned. Completely distasteful.

-JJB


----------



## Matchu

Here you go, C x:

After the rage of reading the literary magazine, comes the trawl of biographies, inducing the greatest rage:

Panguin Slobb, creative writing tutor in the middle of nowhere. His chapbook of fine poetry entitled ME available in the Fall.
Erin Wordsworse is a big thinker, and a campaigner for world food. Published Niff, Chitz and Chunder (UK) comic. Lives with mom
Alfonso P Smith represents the working class & inhabits houseboat. Presently voluntary consultant UN, regular breather has published loads of novels on independent platforms.
Susannah Free liberal community co ordinator, also sits at home all day on her backside like all these other writers. She knows nothing about trucks.
Jason Pratt is a prat
Dickhead Dickhead editor at large for Dickhead, the journal of dickheads.


…FICTIONAL & work in progress


----------



## Monaque

Matchu said:


> Here you go, C x:
> 
> After the rage of reading the literary magazine, comes the trawl of biographies, inducing the greatest rage:
> 
> Panguin Slobb, creative writing tutor in the middle of nowhere. His chapbook of fine poetry entitled ME available in the Fall.
> Erin Wordsworse is a big thinker, and a campaigner for world food. Published Niff, Chitz and Chunder (UK) comic. Lives with mom
> Alfonso P Smith represents the working class & inhabits houseboat. Presently voluntary consultant UN, regular breather has published loads of novels on independent platforms.
> Susannah Free liberal community co ordinator, also sits at home all day on her backside like all these other writers. She knows nothing about trucks.
> Jason Pratt is a prat
> Dickhead Dickhead editor at large for Dickhead, the journal of dickheads.
> 
> 
> …FICTIONAL & work in progress




To be honest I've never read that many literary mags, mostly Sci-Fi, a few Fantasy. Not really my area.


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Monaque said:


> Both of those options really need time I think and I don't have enough of that just at the moment. I did submit to Strange once, although can't remember much about the experience. I tend to go with an idea, pops into my head, just go with that. I'm not really someone who targets really. Also I often read Sci-Fi mags and never seem to get a vibe about what an editor needs specifically, there seem to be a large range of subjects. Perhaps that's just Sci-Fi or maybe my antenna is off somewhat.
> Anyway, I'll get back to it at some point.



Completely get what you're saying. The range is often very big and it's hard to know what 'fits.' I like the anthology calls that often have themes, or magazines with very specific visions (like Prehistoric magazine that publishes dinosaur/extinct animal fiction only). i. e. I'm going to send something to Cohesion Press' SNAFU anthology this month (the theme is Holy War)


----------



## EternalGreen

Literary fiction is indeed full of liberals. There's no room for good ol' communists.

But I'm joking. As long as the main characters aren't burning down a police station or something, I don't think it would matter _too _much.

I've never had an editor tell me, "this work isn't sympathetic enough to social hierarchy, so we're going to pass."

(Note to self: don't publicly refer to the editors of the New Yorker as "bootlickers.")


----------



## luckyscars

BornForBurning said:


> I encourage either prolific submitting or highly targeted submitting. Editors have taste, vision. They are artists, just like us, and their mag is their artistic product. Even if what you have is really good, it often isn't going to fit into their vision of what the magazine is supposed to be. I'm more of a prolific submitter. It's worked decently for me. My sister does targeted submitting. Reading a mag, figuring out whether she likes it, whether or not the editors have similar tastes/vision to her own and _then _submitting. I prefer scatter-shot submitting because I've yet to find a magazine besides Strange Horizons that fits inside my own tastes. Unfortunately, Strange Horizons are very liberal, and I'm not. And the more experimental my writing (aka, the closer it gets to what SH publishes), the _less _​liberal it becomes.



I discourage highly-targeted submission. Not because it's a bad idea, but because it's time consuming, potentially costs money, and ultimately rests on trying to intuit editors, which is something I don't actually think most writers are very good at. Looking at the kind of material a magazine has targeted in the past can be helpful, but editors can be fickle and their tastes may evolve over time and, ultimately, if they are after something 'different' then all that research may actually work against you. Additionally, I do not believe that targeted research is more efficient in terms of time or more likely to yield success than simply submitting to everybody as expeditiously as possible. But I don't know. How many stories has your sister published, out of curiosity?

Also, what do you mean about Strange Horizons being liberal? What does 'liberal' mean in this context? It's such an abused term these days.


----------



## BornForBurning

> Also, what do you mean about Strange Horizons being liberal?


Yeah, I meant generally left-wing (in the American sense) with a bent towards CRT / neo-Marxism. Not necessarily ideologically Liberal, though they are related. Yes, I know I am using a colloquialism. I figure most people here are probably familiar enough with SH's content to contextualize what I meant by 'liberal.' But I appreciate the request for clarity.

I think my sister has published 3 - 4 short stories. But she writes significantly less short fiction than I do, so the percentage is more significant. From my perspective, it seems to work. But she's also not submitting to one publisher. She submits to about five per story. In comparison, I probably submit to twelve, on average.


----------



## EternalGreen

It makes me wonder what kind of story one has to submit to be rejected on the basis of "critical race theory."


----------



## Monaque

EternalGreen said:


> It makes me wonder what kind of story one has to submit to be rejected on the basis of "critical race theory."


Ah, so that's what it means. Although, I'm still unsure what it actually means.


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

EternalGreen said:


> It makes me wonder what kind of story one has to submit to be rejected on the basis of "critical race theory."



Here's a possibility (mere speculation, based on my reading of a few CRT-based writing blogs and conversations with people based in the worldview): "We Who Died in Glory," which I posted in the Workshop and I know you read. First count against it is that American patriotism figures in the story, for the most part "unexamined." That's not to say that neo-Marxism inherently excludes American patriotism, but there's often an ideological clash in our current context because of the colonialism question. Second count against it is the Christian God is presented as the true God. This is often seen, from a CRT perspective, as imposing "western" or "white" religion on everyone. Now, I STRONGLY disagree with this, as Christianity is neither "white" nor "western," BUT that can be the perspective the CRT worldview takes. Third count (may not be noticeable, but I thought of it) is the MC is suggested to be Ojibwe by his last name, and I am a white author -- I've noticed that some people deeply entrenched in CRT are highly suspicious of non-ownvoices Native American characters. Now again, this is all speculation. I am not thinking of any specific mags, just speaking from my understanding of the CRT worldview. Because it IS an at least embryonic ideology, and not just a way of talking about race. 

One thing that isn't speculation: magazines like Strange Horizons prioritize stories with LGBTQ+ characters. Of course, they're not going to reject a story for not having them, but like any magazine, they have their priorities. And those priorities are ideologically motivated (of course). And there's nothing wrong with that, inherently. If I were an editor of a literary magazine, I would also have ideologically motivated priorities. But thinking that it doesn't influence acceptance/rejection would be silly. Of course it does. Just recently in this thread we had an example of a magazine that rejected a story largely because they disagreed with the author's perspective on war.

ETA: Do correct me where I am incorrect in my assessment. I am limited by my experience.


----------



## Monaque

ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord said:


> ...One thing that isn't speculation: magazines like Strange Horizons prioritize stories with LGBTQ+ characters. Of course, they're not going to reject a story for not having them, but like any magazine, they have their priorities. And those priorities are ideologically motivated (of course). And there's nothing wrong with that, inherently. If I were an editor of a literary magazine, I would also have ideologically motivated priorities. But thinking that it doesn't influence acceptance/rejection would be silly. Of course it does. Just recently in this thread we had an example of a magazine that rejected a story largely because they disagreed with the author's perspective on war.



Now that is interesting, never got that vibe when I was reading up on their guidelines, what I can remember of it. Is this something that happens a lot then, magazines prioritizing according to their particular perspectives?


----------



## Matchu

Life’s too short to get entangled on that wire.

Sure, given half an hour on Twitter, one might truly believe only gay, and female-identifying, and between the ages of 14 and 12 (sic), limbless, cancer-riddled Antarctic tribespeople’s domesticated pets ever even got a single haiku published online et cetera...

..anyway, enough of my scene.


----------



## Monaque

Perhaps you're right, easy to overthink things, best to just write what you like and see if someone else does too.


----------



## JJBuchholz

Just received a rejection email this morning, and found a silver lining in it. The publisher stated that after careful and lengthy deliberations
(over a span of the last two weeks), they ultimately decided to not to purchase my story. This leads me to believe that said story might be
better than I thought it was, as this publisher accepts or rejects by committee.

A rejection such as this where you can read between the lines is most preferable. It didn't leave me with a sense of loss, but rather has
made me think about said story and give me hope that it will be picked up and published by someone out there.

-JJB


----------



## Monaque

JJBuchholz said:


> Just received a rejection email this morning, and found a silver lining in it. The publisher stated that after careful and lengthy deliberations
> (over a span of the last two weeks), they ultimately decided to not to purchase my story. This leads me to believe that said story might be
> better than I thought it was, as this publisher accepts or rejects by committee.
> 
> A rejection such as this where you can read between the lines is most preferable. It didn't leave me with a sense of loss, but rather has
> made me think about said story and give me hope that it will be picked up and published by someone out there.
> 
> -JJB



At least it does give you a little something to work with.


----------



## JJBuchholz

It does, and that's why I actually appreciate some rejection letters.

-JJB


----------



## Monaque

JJBuchholz said:


> It does, and that's why I actually appreciate some rejection letters.
> 
> -JJB



Don't think I've submitted enough to get at that point.


----------



## Pamelyn Casto

JJBuchholz said:


> A rejection such as this where you can read between the lines is most preferable. It didn't leave me with a sense of loss, but rather has made me think about said story and give me hope that it will be picked up and published by someone out there.



That's a great type of rejection. They _almost_ purchased your story. You can never know exactly why it was almost purchased. About all you can know is that the story is good (perceived as such by you and by this committee) and that others will likely want to publish it.


----------



## EternalGreen

Whenever I get another inauthentic form rejection, that's an excuse to write "REJECTION" in my notebook in huge letters. So that's satisfying.


----------



## Tiamat

EternalGreen said:


> Whenever I get another inauthentic form rejection, that's an excuse to write "REJECTION" in my notebook in huge letters. So that's satisfying.


I track my subs in an Excel file, and I have a conditional formatting rule set up that turns the word "Reject" bright red with a dull, darker red background. It's really heartening to see a mostly-unbroken column of that in my file. :lol:


----------



## Kyle R

I actually use "DECLINED" instead of "REJECTED", when keeping track of my submissions.

I find the D word a bit gentler on my psyche than the R word. Lol. :distracted:


----------



## bdcharles

Kyle R said:


> I actually use "DECLINED" instead of "REJECTED", when keeping track of my submissions.
> 
> I find the D word a bit gentler on my psyche than the R word. Lol. :distracted:



Even that's too much for me. I have "accepted" and "soon to be accepted"...


----------



## EternalGreen

Don't forget "Soon to be rejected."


----------



## EternalGreen

Craft literary sent me a professional rejection without any - what's the word? - _blandishment_.


----------



## Tiamat

I decided to pay the fee to get feedback upon rejection from Mud Season Review. For the low, low price of $35, you're guaranteed at least two pages of honest feedback from the editors. It's for a story that's been rejected a number of times, so call it morbid curiosity. I actually found it rather helpful though. I wouldn't recommend doing it for every piece, but if you have a story that you feel is a solid piece, but you can't seem to find a home for it, I think the level of feedback I got from professionals in the industry was worth the $35 I paid for it.


----------



## EternalGreen

I got a helpful rejection today: "_The imagery was quite beautiful and the plot was intriguing, but by the end [we] thought the plot raised more questions about the character's identity than it answered. The plot was a bit too vague_."

Well, that sounds easy to fix for the next submission.

It sounds like, for speculative fiction, I need to remember to have a clarifying scene.


----------



## BornForBurning

> It sounds like, for speculative fiction, I need to remember to have a clarifying scene


Depends on the editor. But I would generally agree, even the more experimental mags have a more cut-and-dried approach to storytelling.


----------



## EternalGreen

I used to complain that so many stories are told the same way. Now I see why that is.

It reminds me of the obligatory "paranormal expert" scene in speculative horror films.

I remember reading a book that took at least one chapter explaining what a vampire is. "Please," I begged the author, "stop."

But that's what editors tend towards.

(I'm not being salty about the rejection I just got; this is just a related and relevant tangent.)


----------



## EternalGreen

If only the landlord accepted _​unfortunately_'s as payment.

I'd be set for life.


----------



## Tiamat

Heard from Clarkesworld today, after subbing to them four days ago. I appreciate how quickly they crush my dreams.


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Tiamat said:


> Heard from Clarkesworld today, after subbing to them four days ago. I appreciate how quickly they crush my dreams.



F&SF are great like that, too. 2-day rejections. A mixed blessing.


----------



## Tiamat

ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord said:


> F&SF are great like that, too. 2-day rejections. A mixed blessing.


I'm still sitting on a maybe from them from a month ago so hopefully that one pans out!


----------



## BornForBurning

> I'm still sitting on a maybe from them from a month ago so hopefully that one pans out!


Even a maybe is worth a congratulations if it's from F&SF.


----------



## Ralph Rotten

Rejections inhibit the creative process.
Also, queries take up a goodly chunk of my writing time.
Tis why I became an Indie.


----------



## JJBuchholz

Tiamat said:


> Heard from Clarkesworld today, after subbing to them four days ago. I appreciate how quickly they crush my dreams.



Don't feel bad. Clarkesworld has been crushing everyone's dreams for some time now, myself included.

-J.


----------



## Tiamat

JJBuchholz said:


> Don't feel bad. Clarkesworld has been crushing everyone's dreams for some time now, myself included.


They're something of a bucket list market for me so really, it just inspires me to keep trying. And the fact that they're so quick makes submitting to them less daunting, even knowing the likelihood of rejection.


----------



## Matchu

Seeing everybody get swiped I threw some awful write into Clarkesworld, and to give me a lift for Wensday/Thursday.

'In Progress' over a month with my two heavyweights.  And obviously all editors sitting there like dogs under visors discussing my talents.  'Rejection' shall arrive in junk box 4am when I will/and must re-assess all, every life choices.  Walk into the sea.  Fantasy has sustained since January, at the 'talking to strangers' level...'you know how I'm in progress at Granta, doctor?'


----------



## ehbowen

Received a very quick, "Not interested but thanks for playing!" rejection from an agent at Credo. But there's more fish in the sea....


----------



## ScifiWriter

I got sick of rejections until I found the right publisher that needed a book exactly as I presented it.
Find the perfect publisher / agent for exactly what you are writing.
You do need a killer query letter, though. It has to nail the market - your targeted readers.
And you must give them a grammatically perfect sample. It MUST be copy edited... must.
They will count errors and bounce your submission on the third error for sure.
JMHO


----------



## Tiamat

I got a rejection from The New Yorker today. I've sent them several stories to consider, and I've never once gotten a reply. Plus, their submission guidelines specifically state that they only reply when interested and to assume rejection if you haven't heard from them in 90 days. Today is day 91 and it was just a form rejection, but... does that mean they actually, seriously, for realz considered my piece that they specifically took time to send a reply?

No idea, but that's what I'm going to assume. Y'ALL I *ALMOST* GOT PUBLISHED BY THE NEW YORKER! :lol:


----------



## Tiamat

In the last three days, I've received form rejections from Fireside, PodCastle, Cossmass, and the Missouri Review. I sent a query letter to Asimov's last weekend since it's been longer than the 45 days their website says should be the max, so I really hope I get my "thanks but no thanks" letter this week. You know, just to really round out the collection. :lol:


----------



## EternalGreen

I got called "Dear Writer" by the Cincinnati Review.

Serves me about right for calling them "Dear Editors," I think.


----------



## Monaque

Tiamat said:


> In the last three days, I've received form rejections from Fireside, PodCastle, Cossmass, and the Missouri Review. I sent a query letter to Asimov's last weekend since it's been longer than the 45 days their website says should be the max, so I really hope I get my "thanks but no thanks" letter this week. You know, just to really round out the collection. :lol:



Does anyone ever get published in Asimov's? Never heard of your first three so I bought a Cossmass magazine since it was Sci-Fi, just to check them out.


----------



## Matchu

So, spend three years writing the story, thirteen seconds writing the letter to dear editor Matchu Matchu Matchu although not so much these days, he loves his cat and by the way the job is awful at the moment love to you all from an idiot says my 150 words bio.  Finally print the story and attach this bio to it so everybody in the world hates me.


----------



## Monaque

Matchu said:


> So, spend three years writing the story, thirteen seconds writing the letter to dear editor Matchu Matchu Matchu although not so much these days, he loves his cat and by the way the job is awful at the moment love to you all from an idiot says my 150 words bio.  Finally print the story and attach this bio to it so everybody in the world hates me.


Does seem like it, time spent - time rejected = crazy. Not everyone hates you though Mat. :friendly_wink:


----------



## Matchu

Oh it’s you my buddy, I thought you were ‘exotic lady from Seychelles.’  I was moaning after looking back at a bio - that definitely needed trim, or wife edit toward ‘mat lives in England, he is writer.’


----------



## Tiamat

Can I just say that even though I don't like being rejected (who does, right?), I do appreciate that Beneath Ceaseless Skies at leaves gives you a quick one or two lines about why the story didn't work for them.


----------



## Monaque

Matchu said:


> Oh it’s you my buddy, I thought you were ‘exotic lady from Seychelles.’  I was moaning after looking back at a bio - that definitely needed trim, or wife edit toward ‘mat lives in England, he is writer.’


Hey, with the way the internet works, I might very well be exotic lady from Seychelles layful:



> Can I just say that even though I don't like being rejected (who does,  right?), I do appreciate that Beneath Ceaseless Skies at leaves gives  you a quick one or two lines about why the story didn't work for them.


Really, nice of them, I might try them myself some time if they are that considerate. Most of them you hardly get two words to rub together.


----------



## EternalGreen

I just finished digitizing my submission history.

A (roughly) ninety-six-percent rejection rate (not factoring withdrawals) is actually quite moderate.

(Aside: let's see if NEXT MONTH I can remember to snatch Cosmic Roots and Eldritch Shore's 2-day window in time.)


----------



## EternalGreen

Tiamat said:


> Can I just say that even though I don't like being rejected (who does, right?), I do appreciate that Beneath Ceaseless Skies at leaves gives you a quick one or two lines about why the story didn't work for them.



Oh, I agree.

Most stories get rejected because a slush-reader skimmed half and said: "Meh."


----------



## EternalGreen

From the Fiddlehead.

*To consider when revising: the story could use more expansion and nuance. *

Their rejection machine is so well-oiled, they even have forms for _feedback_.

If I submit once per year, which is the maximum, I will, on average, publish less than one story in their _publication every twenty years_. (I suppose I plan to be around in twenty years.)

I submitted to a place called Orion's Belt. They're going to reject it, duh, but I tried to leave a couple of treats in the prose for the editors, so they _might_ say something nice in the rejection letter. Maybe.


----------



## Matchu

Hard lines I'm sorry.  Though the game is...only slime trail, a couple of slim paperbacks, chap book, headstone, I feel...in totality {ass}.

Higher tier rejection?  Basement tier is better, rage.  Keep on keeping on, ensuring a couple of spikes of brightness a year.  All best.


----------



## Tiamat

My rejection from Asimov's finally came in. It was WAY outside their usual time frame, and it came from the editor. I've never paid attention before to see if all their rejections are signed with the editor's name or not, but I'm going to pretend that means they seriously considered the story. 

Also submitted something to Clarkesworld today, so now I'm playing a game to see if they can beat their previous record of 4 days before I get my "no thanks" email.


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Got rejected by Snafu anthology, but they held it waaay longer than normal, so I'll either take that as mild encouragement or editors-are-backlogged. 

Also, random non-writing question, but does anyone know how to read art exhibition rejections? I recently got a proposal rejected by The Museum of Wild and Newfangled Art with this line in it: "We are not showing your work at this time, but we hope to in the future." To me, who's used to literary magazine rejections, this just sounds like a polite way of saying no, but is it also possible they mean they're actually holding the work I sent for the future? I just have no exposure to how art museums operate.


----------



## Kyle R

ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord said:


> Got rejected by Snafu anthology, but they held it waaay longer than normal, so I'll either take that as mild encouragement or editors-are-backlogged.
> 
> Also, random non-writing question, but does anyone know how to read art exhibition rejections? I recently got a proposal rejected by The Museum of Wild and Newfangled Art with this line in it: "We are not showing your work at this time, but we hope to in the future." To me, who's used to literary magazine rejections, this just sounds like a polite way of saying no, but is it also possible they mean they're actually holding the work I sent for the future? I just have no exposure to how art museums operate.



I'm not familiar with art exhibitions, either. But it sounds, to me, like a polite rejection, with a slight mistake in the wording.

"We are not showing _new_ work at this time, but we hope to in the future" makes much more sense, given the context.

If they were interested in your work, they likely would've made future arrangements with you.

Just my interpretation, anyway! I'd suggest you keep shopping around. When you find a venue that does want to showcase your work, they'll let you know in no uncertain terms. :encouragement:


----------



## Matchu

ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord said:


> Got rejected by Snafu anthology, but they held it waaay longer than normal, so I'll either take that as mild encouragement or editors-are-backlogged.
> 
> Also, random non-writing question, but does anyone know how to read art exhibition rejections? I recently got a proposal rejected by The Museum of Wild and Newfangled Art with this line in it: "We are not showing your work at this time, but we hope to in the future." To me, who's used to literary magazine rejections, this just sounds like a polite way of saying no, but is it also possible they mean they're actually holding the work I sent for the future? I just have no exposure to how art museums operate.



I would risk the embarrassment and reply with a 'which piece and a when' kind of a thing - no damage done - if it's auto-post it shall enter a bin, nobody will ever see.  I once honked, clapped hands and danced the room upon reception of e-mail: 

 'Dear Author of wild and imaginative prose..!'

'Thank you and thank you.'

'...we'd like to give all of our subscribers today an opportunity...to purchase...'  

'Oh go f o...etc'


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## EternalGreen

Tiamat said:


> ]I'm going to pretend that means they seriously considered the story.



Story of my life.


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## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Matchu said:


> I would risk the embarrassment and reply with a 'which piece and a when' kind of a thing - no damage done - if it's auto-post it shall enter a bin, nobody will ever see.



Took your advice. If it helps anyone who's also sending stuff to art museums: yeah, it was just a polite no.


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## Tiamat

Clarkesworld beat their record. Two-day rejection this time. I think, given the number of rejections and the speediness of them (even from those who are typically less quick than Clarkesworld), I have to come to terms with the fact that this particular piece isn't very good. It was fun to write though, so there's that.


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## Matchu

ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord said:


> Took your advice. If it helps anyone who's also sending stuff to art museums: yeah, it was just a polite no.



Really I  shall not shoulder the blame for this incident all of my life.


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## Matchu

Tiamat said:


> Clarkesworld beat their record. Two-day rejection this time. I think, given the number of rejections and the speediness of them (even from those who are typically less quick than Clarkesworld), I have to come to terms with the fact that this particular piece isn't very good. It was fun to write though, so there's that.




Go back to it.


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## EternalGreen

Every rejection brings you infinitesimally closer to another acceptance.

No, wait, that's the gambler's fallacy. We're all fucked.


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## Kyle R

Yeah, in the short term, rejections really suck. In the long term, though, they can just become part of the process.

I think the trick is to constantly write more and more stories. ABC - Always Be Creating. That way, you never get too attached to the outcome.

By the time you hear back on one story, you've already become more invested in the current one you're working on, so a rejection on a previous work won't feel as emotionally significant. (That's the theory, anyway.)


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## EternalGreen

Kyle R said:


> Yeah, in the short term, rejections really suck. In the long term, though, they can just become part of the process.
> 
> I think the trick is to constantly write more and more stories. ABC - Always Be Creating. That way, you never get too attached to the outcome.
> 
> By the time you hear back on one story, you've already become more invested in the current one you're working on, so a rejection on a previous work won't feel as emotionally significant. (That's the theory, anyway.)



If it gets rejected too many times you might have to "re-open" the story and work on it again, though. I don't like "revisiting" stories, but I guess that's part of the process.


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## Tiamat

EternalGreen said:


> If it gets rejected too many times you might have to "re-open" the story and work on it again, though. I don't like "revisiting" stories, but I guess that's part of the process.


Although I do recommend revisiting stories, I think it's also important to let them go. Not all stories are good ones, and frankly, not all good stories are sellable. It's just the way it goes. So, by all means, if you have a particular idea you think is really solid, and maybe there's something off about your execution, revise the crap out of it. But if it still doesn't sell after multiple revisions, maybe it's time to let it go frolic with the other untamed stories in the forest.


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## EternalGreen

By "let it frolic in the forest" do you mean give it to a non-paying publisher?


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## Tiamat

I suppose that's one option, sure. These days, I've become more of an all or nothing kinda gal, so if I can't find a pro market to take it, I toss it in my "Bad" folder and walk away.


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## BornForBurning

> These days, I've become more of an all or nothing kinda gal, so if I can't find a pro market to take it, I toss it in my "Bad" folder and walk away.


I honestly think that's a bad assumption. I've seen plenty of good stuff from good authors published in semi-pro or even token mags. But if you can't get it published, you can't get it published, I suppose.


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## Tiamat

I'm not saying that if a pro market won't take it the story is bad (regardless of what my folder is named). But I also find that if I don't settle for a lower paying market, I can reuse ideas. As a for instance, I wrote a story about a sentient Roomba and couldn't sell it. (It was objectively bad, but that's not the point here.) I have a story coming out next month in F&SF that includes (but is not specifically about) a sentient Roomba. 

Recycling: it's not just good for the planet.


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## Serendipity

I especially dread the quick rejections. Getting one of those is like a defendant getting a guilty verdict at a trial. A fast verdict is _always_ bad. A quick response from a publisher is rarely good news!


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## Steve_Rivers

Tiamat said:


> I'm not saying that if a pro market won't take it the story is bad (regardless of what my folder is named). But I also find that if I don't settle for a lower paying market, I can reuse ideas. As a for instance, I wrote a story about a sentient Roomba and couldn't sell it. (It was objectively bad, but that's not the point here.) I have a story coming out next month in F&SF that includes (but is not specifically about) a sentient Roomba.
> 
> Recycling: it's not just good for the planet.



You need to give it some cool speakers and an mp3 player to make it hip and appeal to the kids, Tia  hehe

https://parksandrecreation.fandom.com/wiki/DJ_Roomba


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## Matchu

beatnik x


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## JJBuchholz

I received a rather short rejection letter from Exile Publishing this morning, this being the third time I've tried to crack them with
several stories from various genres. Whereas a lot of publishers might give a writer an iota about why they don't accept a particular
manuscript, Exile gives nothing, and has no method to their madness.

I wasn't so much disappointed as I was confused. I won't be sending them any manuscripts in the future.

-JJB


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## Chris Miller

One of my first subs ever was to Glimmer Train. The sisters were deeply offended and sent me a scathing personal reject telling me how offended they were and their readers would be. To my lasting regret, I deleted it immediately.


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## Chris Miller

*How to Write a Rejection Slip*

With publishing’s gatekeepers now comprising the bulk of short fictions’ readership, I think it reasonable to say that for every story read at least one rejection slip is also read. The rare instances in which writers’ stories are not rejected and to some degree published and possibly read by others are offset by writers’ publishing their rejection slips on public blogs and forums and disseminating them in emails. Similarly, publishers’ returning the same rejection slip to many writers is offset by writers submitting the same story to many publishers. So even ignoring that rejection slips, unlike the stories that inspired them, are almost always read in their entirety, taken to heart and remembered, it all more than cancels out. Ergo rejection slips are the most widely and attentively read short literary genre. 

And while there’s a humongous amount of material available on how to write good short stories and also a lot of information on reading (i.e. coping with) rejection slips—which may be summarized as 1) consider that you might be a shitty writer who will improve, 2) consider that the rejecter is an imbecile and/or pandering to an imbecilic demographic, and  3) don’t include return postage on your SASE, or, in the case of email submissions, flag the “sent to” address as spam—nowhere (in my full minute of research) did I find anything on writing good rejection slips. So, as always and without further ado, here are my rules:

1.    Never write “keep writing” in a rejection slip. This is particularly irksome as the slip’s closing sentiment and even more so when followed by an exclamation mark. Your reader is already disappointed and doesn’t need the implication that your passing on the piece might constitute a reason to stop writing. In other words, this generic and ingenuous “chin up” just makes readers want to punch you in the face. It is beyond your rejection slip’s scope to provide personal or career counseling.

2.    Never critique work you are rejecting. It just makes you look stupid, even when you’re right, which usually you are not. It is beyond your rejection slip’s scope to teach creative writing.

3.    Never say a piece is “not right” for you. This rule may be excepted if you actually really did like the submission but have had all your creative joie de vivre and artistic license crushed out of you by having to cater to the dreary formula upon which your publication is based and you can convey this in some credible way. Similarly, unless you can say who, do not point out that someone else might like it. The reader would not have sent you the piece if they didn’t like it. The same rules of concision that apply to all writing apply to rejection slips. Be specific. Avoid stating the obvious.

4.    Never chirp how you “enjoyed the read.” You have just injured your reader. “I dozed off while reading your submission and chipped a tooth on my coffee mug” might be more uplifting.

5.    Never metaphorically equate a piece’s acceptance with its finding “a home.” The story you are rejecting is not some derelict bumming spare change, eating out of dumpsters and sleeping on benches and grates. Particularly offensive and almost as bad as “Keep writing!” is “Good luck finding a home for it!” Really you should avoid bestowing any sort of hope, wish or prayer for success on your reader. What you need to keep in mind is that, no matter how you sugarcoat them, rejection slips hurt. And so, if only briefly, your reader is your enemy, and doesn’t want your gloating condescension. 

6.    Avoid saying you hope the author will submit more of their work in the future, even if you really do. This is a toughie, I know. But if you really like the piece that much, then ask if you can hold onto it in the hopes a slot opens up. Or send a follow-up invitation. Most times, if you solicit work from an author, she will comply. But consider that your reader is reading in a temporarily bummed out state. Her best efforts have just been found wanting. Even ephemeral depression twists all emotions into negative forms. So, instead of interested, you just sound greedy. And instead of uplifted, your reader just feels used, like you’ve walked up to her promotional free-sample display in the supermarket where she works weekends on commission, and, after gobbling down all her carefully prepared little sausages, crackers, cheeses, dips or whatever, exclaimed how delicious they were, burped and asked when more will be available.

7.    Conversely, do not be afraid to write things like, “We would appreciate if you didn’t submit any more of your work to us,” or “We only barely read the first paragraph,” or “We receive thousands of submissions each month and yours was second worst!” Honesty is always the best policy. Writers can smell bullshit like weed at a concert. A miss is as good as a mile.


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## VRanger

Chris, I hit Like because there was so much serious material in your post, but I also chuckled several times. Good post.


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## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Yes, yes, and yes. One time (my poor literal brain) I sent another piece to a magazine that had "we'd love to read more of your work in the future" in its form rejection letter, before I realized. This was particularly deceptive because they also said something like "we liked the beauty of the words and the emotions at play" --- _in their form rejection;_ I'm not kidding. It's like--you're not protecting my emotions; you're just confusing me. Did you like it or not?

The one I semi-disagree with is #2, because I like to have an idea why something was rejected. Cosmic Roots' method of just sending the readers' notes (if you ask for them) is great. I'd do that if I ran a literary magazine.


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## Matchu

I dunno about the notes.  When I was ‘Mr Slush’ for a big sci-fi magazine they’d post the submissions in batches of ten.  I hate coming across condescending but 95% were not up to standards of brightness/originality/grammar.  It doesn’t take long to assess.  In fact a good one provoked great excitement.

That in itself still wasn’t matched especially by the quality of the end product.  Perhaps 8 slots for writers - and once the invited authors & editors’ friends were taken into account probably two slots remaining…ach, I’ve pressed ‘post’ too soon…

But then I’m riddled with all kinds of prejudice - I don’t know why I expect something sparkling, transformative from sci-fi/lit mags/the Atlantic/Poetry/New Yorker/McSweeneys…. …I wish I could identify more closely with…any of them.  My god, lit mags, the authors’ bios - granted - are almost entertaining…

_Boring Mcbreathface lives in the mountains.  He is very serious about writing.  MFa MFa & a creative writing tutor.  His first novel Glacier Eyelet available from Sincerity Press zzzzz_


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## Chris Miller

Arrow, there's rarely benefit to trying to tell a submitter why their piece was rejected. Sometimes it's more about the reader than the writer, but mostly it just wouldn't be helpful to say something like, "You don't have enough interesting ideas." If you want fairly harsh, candid, honest, subjective feedback on your work, try subbing to TQRstories, and hope it makes it up to the Terminal (second level of review). We can be pretty brutal. They used to really ruffle my feathers back before I became a staffer and still had thin skin. I sold a few to Redstone Sci-fi before they packed it in. After reading my above rules, they always rejected mine with just "No."

Matchu, I still read for a couple small magazines: one print, one web based. And usually I can tell within a paragraph whether a piece has a chance, has anything to  say, knows how to say it. And it is pretty exciting when I really love something, which is actually almost as likely  to happen here on the boards as in my slush subs or even major publications. I mean, I don't remember a single one of James Joyce's shorts  from some collection I read of his. And I only liked maybe 2 of Salinger's Nine Stories.  So a lot of it is pretty subjective. And yeah, there should be a How to Write a Bio rule set. Rule #1. Don't use your CV.


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## bdcharles

All so true. I plan to keep writing anyway, so don't need to be told that. Rejections don't upset me, but they are tiresome. It would be much more useful to know what the exact problem was.


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## JJBuchholz

bdcharles said:


> All so true. I plan to keep writing anyway, so don't need to be told that. Rejections don't upset me, but they are tiresome. It would be much more useful to know what the exact problem was.


My thoughts exactly. Publishers that say next to nothing in their rejection response is counterproductive. How am I supposed to know what I may or may
not need to improve upon if no one tells me?

When I got an acceptance email from Montreal Writes (responsible for my first published story), they actually sent me a critique that told me a couple things
that could be tweaked before they published it. Not only was I estatic at finally being published, but was thankful that they showed me a couple of small items
in which there was room for improvement.

In almost all of the rejection letters I have received over the years, they say next to nothing in terms of the 'why', and left me wondering how they didn't deem
it as something that should be published, especially when it's a publisher I have submitted to several times using several different manuscripts across more than
one genre.

Publishers need to step up a bit more than they do. I've heard some publishers cry about 'not enough good writing' being out there for them to publish, but 
then get picky and choosy to the point where writers just don't want to send them work anymore.

-JJB


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## Pamelyn Casto

I've experienced editors doing major revision on my work. One in particular astounded me by going to the lengths she did to get my piece in shape. She was right on all counts too and my work was so much improved once she finished with it. I thought what I sent was  pretty good or wouldn't have sent it. But with her major revisions, my piece started sparkling. Those editors are heaven-sent.

But not all can spend that kind of time on the sometimes hundreds of submissions they receive. The above editor must have seen something she wanted in my original piece and she got it with her revision. Most often I get a nice, simple rejection. Sometimes once the work is accepted, the editor will then do some fierce editing to get the piece into its best shape. And I'm fine with that. I think that's as far as it usually needs to go. 

The editors who really grind me are those who say something like "we will _not_ notify you of acceptance or rejection. You'll see the result when the next issue comes out." So my submitted gets tied up until the next quarterly or annual issue is live. That's too long to keep someone's work tied up. (But I suspect they do that so they can keep waiting for better pieces to arrive before final selection.)  

I don't think busy editors need to be teachers we go to to learn what's holding our work back. I think we need to discover that on our own (take courses, have the work edited by critique groups or professional editing services, etc.). 

So many submitting writers don't even follow the publication's guidelines--will  submit what's entirely inappropriate for what the publication asks for. I know of one writer who says he doesn't care about _any_ publication's guidelines and requests. He has his computer, and at no cost to himself, he can send out masses of submissions to all sorts of places, and as a result he costs slews of hard working editors a lot of time.  

I know of one editor (a hard copy publication at the time) who said for every single piece he publishes, he's had to reject the work of at least 100 equally good pieces. (His journal could only hold a limited number of works.) So even when we're rejected, we have no way of knowing if we almost made it. Maybe our work was actually acceptable but just not now, not at this place at this time. And I think that's okay too.

The information I most need is whether or not the editor wants my piece. If not, I examine it, see what can still be polished or refined, and then send it elsewhere.


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## Matchu

Sent one away - in despair really - and under time pressure, my night shift in one hour.  NIght shift often provokes the submission urges.  Also, sent it to Canada and I'm about as Canadian as a boomerang or frisbee.


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## JJBuchholz

Pamelyn Casto said:


> The information I most need is whether or not the editor wants my piece. If not, I examine it, see what can still be polished or refined, and then send it elsewhere.


How can you polish or refine it if the editor or publisher tells you nothing? You can't. I can edit a rejected manuscript until the cows come home, but if
I don't know which aspect of said manuscript is the issue, it's impossible. I've had a couple publishers write back with a rejection stating that, 'the story is
good but there are a few flaws', or 'we enjoyed your manuscript, but have decided it's not the right fit', but little else.

If they don't tell me about the 'flaws' or how my story 'doesn't fit' with their publication, how in the hell am I supposed to tweak it and/or edit it
accordingly?

See what I'm getting at? Publishers need to be more transparent with writers that are submitting work to them. Period.

-JJB


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## Pamelyn Casto

Oh, yes. I see what you're getting at, JJ. Oh, yes, do I ever. But can busy editors really afford the time to engage in further communication with the rejected writer? When they have accepted writers they need to help get their pieces in shape? It wouldn't be to their advantage to explain to every submitter what's wrong or off or not understandable. 

Plus, many times they won't even know what, exactly, isn't working but know it's not a piece they want at the moment or that there's something a bit off about it. Or maybe it's even ahead of its time but not appropriate for their publication. It would take tremendous effort and a tremendous amount of time on a busy editor's part to figure out how to even explain what's flawed or why something doesn't quite fit. 

For a publication, I recently selected the magazine's "best published" ten stories. I also wrote an introduction the type of work the "best published" pieces represented. 

My involvement was heavy and took all of my free time--- I had to read all the many _published_ stories to select ten that I thought were the best. I served as editor for that project and I got no sleep. None. I was even past deadline when I turned it in. No way could I or should I contact the "almosts" to explain why while heir published pieces were great, I could only select ten. 

My point is this was just one relatively small editorial duty that cost me plenty of time. I'm glad I did it but it was difficult and time-consuming work. That one project alone. 

Again, all I know to do that helps me is to get the piece in its best possible shape, then ask for critiques from critique groups like this or in some cases hire professional services to try to get the work its best shape-- a shape that might please the next  editor and that pleases me too. And even after all that, the piece might still be rejected. I can't always do this but when I do I find multiple submissions help me. Say I send work to six publications. One immediately rejects it. It's not too painful since five others are considering it. Say another rejects it, I still have three more editors looking. And so on. That lessens the sting so I keep the pieces circulating (after examining them again to get them shipshape as I can). 

Now what was slightly more painful was when I found a place that would take up to ten pieces and would report in 24 hours. Yeah, I'll send them ten pieces. Then bang! Just like that, they were shot down, rejected that fast. They didn't even say "try again"! Ouch. But things like that are part of the life of hoping to see our work published.  So part of our job, I think, is to figure out good strategies for doing that very thing. 

The other day I was reading about some famous writer who struggled and struggled to get his work published. No luck. Then eventually his work scored, took off,  and he grew his reputation as a fine writer. THEN was when his old initially rejected pieces got published. By that time, readers and editors couldn't get enough of his work. 

Writing, hoping for publication, turns out to be quite an adventure, doesn't it? It's so great to be able to talk with others about these things.


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## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

This is why I like Cosmic Roots' methods of sending readers' notes. The editor doesn't need to take time out of their schedule to explain why--their editorial process involves the editor receiving notes from a group of readers to base their decision on, so it's just one more step to send those same notes to the writer (if the writer was automatically rejected [not following submission guidelines, for example], I assume they'd be unable to receive those notes). 

It WOULD be a crazy amount of time if the editor had to individually comb through and explain each story--but they have a built-in step in their editorial process that allows a writer to easily receive feedback without much extra work from the editor. Bards & Sages has a similar method where slush readers have to fill out a 'scoresheet' for each story, and rejected writers can receive this scoresheet if they like.


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## Earp

I guess I'd look at editors just as potential buyers for my products. I don't expect them to spend their time to make me better at what I've chosen to do. If I sold, say, handmade candles online, I wouldn't demand that visitors to my website leave me a detailed explanation about why they didn't buy anything.


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## Pamelyn Casto

Sounds reasonable to me, Earp. As a writer, I'm selling a product. It's up to me to make it the best product I can produce before I take it to market. 

One of the many other problems editors have, especially the smaller literary magazines, is not having slush readers. The readers would have to be volunteers and the editor would have to know where to go to get the best readers -- and then she'd have to keep the staff as steady as he can. 

Further, some journals or magazines specialize. I'm most familiar with flash fiction and flash fiction is a newly recognized genre. It's been around a long time but not recognized as a real contender until fairly recently. None of us know all its secrets--what makes it work, how to make someone's story work better. The writer needs to have done his/ her homework and study and experimentation. It's much more than just a miniature story. It's as complex as poetry. 

So it would be impossible, I'd think, for an editor who specializes in a new genre like flash fiction to be able to tell the submitting writer who thinks flash fiction means a tiny, simple story that his story needs something more to be powerful flash fiction. The editor can't tell the writer what that "something more" is but he knows it when he sees it. Such specialty editors can create guidelines, showing what type of flash fiction they prefer, but the rest would take up too much time to explain something none of us can fully understand. 

And speaking of poetry, especially literary poetry, many aspiring poets today write in free verse and aren't familiar with various things about powerful poetry that they really need to have explored and studied. No editor in the entire world would take on educating a novice poet on the many things he or she might need to understand about fine poetry. (Unless that editor spotted extreme talent and would want to take on educating this one already highly talented writer.)  

Plus, editors are often writers themselves. Or wanna be writers. They're doing their homework by working in their chosen field and seeking the best works that will further their vision of flash fiction or poetry, for instance. They need time to sleep and time to do their own writing. It's up to us, I think, to say "thank you" when we get a rejection and then move on (get back to polishing the rejected piece or learning more about the genre that will help us improve it). 

Another problem editors have is even if they go to great lengths to explain what's not working, many writers don't want their Muse-dictated words tampered with and express anger for the editor not recognizing the beauty of their work. (Actually, most of writing consists in of a lot of "killing your darlings" but some novice writers aren't aware of that.) 

It's not easy being a writer and not easy being an editor. Hard work is involved from both. But we do it anyway, because that's what we do.:-D


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## Matchu

I agree with @Earp.

I've had ones where the super-super 'esteemed' editor replied something like - 'Naked Rampage: hilarious, bro hah hah buddy, but not suitable for my reflections upon grief series.'

Y'know, remembering it's a human being at a keyboard, or on his phone.  A lot of these, y'know, these baby writers think 'editors' are super-creatures.  Some of the editors are actually in my opinion quite disabled by their narrow spectrums, social elevation, university breath, the Jazz piano & such-like.


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## BornForBurning

> Naked Rampage: hilarious, bro hah hah buddy, but not suitable for my reflections upon grief series


Submitting to anthologies: the post


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## Pamelyn Casto

Matchu said:


> Y'know, remembering it's a human being at a keyboard, or on his phone.  A lot of these, y'know, these baby writers think 'editors' are super-creatures.  Some of the editors are actually in my opinion quite disabled by their narrow spectrums, social elevation, university breath, the Jazz piano & such-like.



I agree, Matchu. Some editors are limited by their narrow views. They're human, too. But then again, they're running their magazine and have the right to accept what they want, and insist it be how they want it. They also likely have a sense of their readers' preferences.  "New" is sometimes frightening. 

The story of Hemingway's struggle to be published is quite interesting (I read Lionel Trilling's account). Hemingway was ahead of his time and editors just couldn't recognize that his work would turn out to be mega-important one day. His type of writing wasn't like everyone else's. It broke many "rules." But he didn't stop. He believed in what he was doing. And now likely billions of people at least recognize the name Hemingway (and recognize that he's a highly talened writer).


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## noisebloom

I've finally gotten to the point where I'm actually confident in something enough to query, and I recently received a rejection after a manuscript request of my latest graphic novel script:

"I like the premise" but lacks that "what happens next" feeling.

Building a bigger sense of suspense is my goal now...


----------

