# The Writer's World (1 Viewer)



## SilverMoon (Aug 5, 2010)

I thought this brief video would inspire discussion about how we go about our writing process. Where do we write and how does the environment where we chose to write affect us, our craft. Do we connect with ourselves spritually on some level? How do we get going when determined to get over writer's block? 

When I'm stuck with verse I free associate words on paper and they're mostly pretty unusual. The more unusual the happier I am.. A word often times spurs a theme, then I go into Word. Write, then edit like crazy! Also interested if anyone gives themselves space before returning to edit. I tend to go at it immediately. Like sculpting before the clay drys. Hope you enjoy the video. Laurie

YouTube - ‪Natalie Goldberg - Old Friend from Far Away - Book Video‬&lrm;


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## Gumby (Aug 5, 2010)

Very interesting Laurie. I like seeing how others get motivated and then compare it to myself. Maybe even get some ideas in the process.


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## SilverMoon (Aug 5, 2010)

Same here, Cindy. Hope to gleen from what others have to say. Also, fascinated by other writer's processes.


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## Nellie (Aug 5, 2010)

I did enjoy the video. Much reminds me of myself when I like going to the Starbucks just down the street and enjoying time on the patio so I can reflect and think of things with my notebook and pen in hand. Just observing others and "listening" to other's bits and pieces of life gives me ideas to write about. I can jot down those ideas and write later.

Cindy


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## J.R. MacLean (Aug 5, 2010)

Oh yeah. Natalie Goldberg. Her attic is chock full of those notebooks. I personally have hundreds of pages of journalistic crap thanks to her. Practice makes perfect I suppose, but I think her method risks the danger of writing from the subconscious, which is just the murky skin of the heart. Like people that blab shit out for decades in psychoanalysis, finding relief in intermittent purgings, but no cure.


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## garza (Aug 5, 2010)

It sounds like she's teaching people what they ought to know by the time they are ten years old. It's sad that there are those in the world who need this sort of thing.


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## JosephB (Aug 5, 2010)

Well, Garza, she's saying we should slow down, pay attention, and honor our lives -- and suggests that we can do that through writing. That makes sense to me. And I think a lot of folks could benefit from doing that -- writers or not. It may seem obvious to you, but it certainly isn't sad for her to share that or for people to consider it. 

It's great that you've had all this figured out since you were ten -- but a lot of people are caught up in the day-to-day and don't stop and smell the proverbial roses. Writing, as a way of doing that, seems like a pretty good idea to me.


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## The Backward OX (Aug 6, 2010)

J.R. MacLean said:


> Like people that blab shit out for decades in psychoanalysis, finding relief in intermittent purgings, but no cure.


 
And a very great many of them (women mostly?) do exactly the same thing by putting that shit on the page, and then finding some idiot of a publisher who thinks it’s great writing. My housemate has just thrown one such at the wall in disgust - The Graft, by Martina Cole. Find it, and you’ll see what I mean.


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## caelum (Aug 6, 2010)

Thanks for the video, SilverMoon.  I find it pretty interesting that she writes longhand.  I've written longhand before and find it more cumbersome, but in some ways it may be a more spontaneous way to write, because you can't jump back up the page to tweak/rewrite a sentence (at least significantly).  You're stuck at as far as you've written.

Some lives are so frantically paced that stopping to smell the roses doesn't really fit the schedule.  I have a pretty free-form schedule myself, but I know some people who are just _go go go go go_.


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## The Backward OX (Aug 6, 2010)

Why isn't this thread in Writing Discussion where it belongs?


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## Blood (Aug 6, 2010)

caelum said:


> Thanks for the video, SilverMoon.  I find it  pretty interesting that she writes longhand.  I've written longhand  before and find it more cumbersome, but in some ways it may be a more  spontaneous way to write, because you can't jump back up the page to  tweak/rewrite a sentence (at least significantly).  You're stuck at as  far as you've written.


You write long hand, short hand is for  secretaries.   It is an abbreviated symbolic writing method.


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## Blood (Aug 6, 2010)

JosephB said:


> Well, Garza, she's saying we should slow down, pay attention, and honor our lives -- and suggests that we can do that through writing.


No, she states that that her writing style is fast pen.  Go to a Starbucks, grab a coffee sit down and "go", like an ever flowing river.  Little time for slow-down reflection in that process.


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## SilverMoon (Aug 6, 2010)

I've written long hand many years ago and unlike Goldberg's neat pages we see in the video, my pages were full of crossed out words, arrows pointing to margins with word repalcements and then even annotations. A real mess.Yes. More cumbersome for me. I like her idea of focusing on the quality of words and less of distracting fine-tuning of miniscule details. When I'm on the computer I rely way too much on the thesaurus instead of settling with my own words. I'm a fantatical editor along the way. As an excersize I'll be bringing pad and pen to the sound nearby and try writing in this distraction free environment. Will be interesting to see what I come up with. That flowing river of words or choking on each given word going though computer withdrawl.


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## JosephB (Aug 6, 2010)

Blood said:


> No, she states that that her writing style is fast pen.  Go to a Starbucks, grab a coffee sit down and "go", like an ever flowing river.  Little time for slow-down reflection in that process.



Although it seems that the OP is asking us to consider the author's writing process, the primary message isn't really about that. It's mostly about her idea that peoples lives are worth writing about and why. 

She says in the video that although she wrote her book quickly, it really came from a lifetime of taking things in. Her abilty to write like an "ever flowing river" is a result of that. 

So she suggests we slow down and pay attention -- because there's a story there that's worth telling. I don't know if that's always the case -- but that's the gist of it, I think -- and that writing can be a means of gaining awareness, about ourselves, others and the world around us.


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## J.R. MacLean (Aug 6, 2010)

> And a very great many of them (women mostly?) do exactly the same thing by putting that shit on the page


 
I did notice that the only man in the video was the guy serving the capuccinos...




> So she suggests we slow down and pay attention


 
I like the philosophy, JB, which is essentially Zen. I'm a keypad guy though, I guess, and I enjoy long pauses between bursts of activity.


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## JosephB (Aug 6, 2010)

J.R. MacLean said:


> I did notice that the only man in the video was the guy serving the capuccinos...



I think that's to be expected. Often, journaling or writing things down kind of forces you to confront your feelings, and men usually have a harder time doing that, or seeing the value in it.


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## Patrick (Aug 6, 2010)

JosephB said:


> I think that's to be expected. Often, journaling or writing things down kind of forces you to confront your feelings, and men usually have a harder time doing that, or seeing the value in it.


 
For goodness sake. Ox sets the tone by complaining about women in a thread that is essentially about something that both male and female writers share in common, and now we have the cliche of men being emotionally retarded.


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## JosephB (Aug 6, 2010)

I didn't say that. I said men usually have a harder time expressing their feelings. I didn't say they aren't capable of it or that they are emotionally retarded. Ask anyone -- a counselor, psychologist, or therapist etc, who deals with these issues and he or she will likely confirm it. Sometimes it seems your need to argue and be contradictory supersedes your ability to comprehend what's being said.


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## Patrick (Aug 6, 2010)

JosephB said:


> I didn't say that. I said men usually have a harder time expressing their feelings. I didn't say they aren't capable of it or that they are emotionally retarded. Ask anyone -- a counselor, psychologist, or therapist etc, who deals with these issues and he or she will likely confirm it. Sometimes it seems your need to argue and be contradictory supersedes your ability to comprehend what's being said.


 
It appears you don't recognise a red herring when it appears, Joseph,  since you've just spent your last two posts trying to justify a point  that doesn't relate to the OP. You can correct me if I am wrong, but this  thread wasn't established with the intention of discussing the  differences in male and female psychology. It's quite incredible for you to suggest I am the one who is incapable of comprehending what has been said.

So, now that your error has been exposed, will you concede that I was correct in suggesting that both yourself and Ox were guilty of following after red herrings in my original contribution to this thread? If not, why not? Don't run from the point and address more red herrings, please.


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## JosephB (Aug 6, 2010)

Well, in that regard, you did the exact same thing I did, by commenting on a post which you now regard as off topic. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.


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## Patrick (Aug 6, 2010)

JosephB said:


> Well, in that regard, you did the exact same thing I did, by commenting on a post which you now regard as off topic. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.


 

Just as I thought you would, you've tried to shift the blame back on to me. This is rather pathetic, Joseph; in insisting the fault is my own, you simply fail to face the obvious contention. The point of my original contribution to this thread was to highlight the fact you were going after a red herring. You obviously didn't understand this because you then tried to further justify your reasons for thinking men and women differ in psychology, a point I was never contesting.


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## JosephB (Aug 6, 2010)

Heh. Sure. I thought it was an interesting observation that there were only women in the video and I was just offering an opinion as to why that might be. I didn't see a red herring. But whatever.


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## Patrick (Aug 6, 2010)

JosephB said:


> Heh. Sure. I thought it was an interesting observation that there were only women in the video and I was just offering an opinion as to why that might be. I didn't see a red herring. But whatever.


 
It wouldn't have mattered as much if your immediate retort wasn't to attack my own comprehension, or to suggest that I was simply an argumentative person as a means to detract from the point I was making. The fact you didn't, or still don't, see a red herring anywhere in this thread is the reason I pointed it out.


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## Baron (Aug 6, 2010)

Please discuss the topic and cut out the personal attacks.


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## SilverMoon (Aug 6, 2010)

Goldberg is a Buddhist, so we will assume she meditates. This led me to wonder if anyone experiences writing as being in a meditative state.



> *The mental state of writing*
> 
> When we are physically in the state of writing it is just like a state of deep contemplation. We become absorbed in the process of our ideas, thoughts, feelings and emotions. We then attempt to integrate them all in a way that reveals a clear message.
> 
> When I am in a state of writing that cannot be disturbed it is like I am in a trance. All my focus is concentrated on the task at hand and on accomplishing what it is I am setting out to do. All of my being is dedicated into channeling my energy outwards into my creation.


 
This has me thinking about my mind-set when writing. I cannot be disturbed when I write. However, I could not call it a meditative experience. I'm considering too much and then the with pausings, scratching my head so to speak, as to what avenue to take next. I'm nearly in a frenetic state, highly disappointed if things are not going well. When getting those "bingo moments", emotionally elated then go into a very pleasant calm back into the "core" of the story. Though, I wouldn't call it meditative.

Wondering if anyone finds the experience meditative or that of being in the frenetic state or both and how it affects your work. 


Meditation | The Emotion Machine


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## RoundEye (Aug 6, 2010)

To be honest, this idiot is having trouble following either one of y’all. :geek:


It’s starting to smell fishy in here, Mermaid do red herrings taste good fried?


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## Patrick (Aug 6, 2010)

SilverMoon said:


> Goldberg is a Buddhist, so we will assume she meditates. This led me to wonder if anyone experiences writing as being in a meditative state.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's interesting because one of things I find I do quite naturally all the time, and hadn't really noticed until someone pointed it out to me, is connect different topics into a rational conclusion. That's how my mind tends to work. I take unconnected topics, hold them in place in my mind while referencing them against each other and then create, for want of a better word, a thesis that eventually comes to me. All my conscious acts of "creation" stem from this process. It's not so much an avenue-by-avenue process for me, I tend to have them all open at once and the "thought traffic" might be going down each at differing speeds, but I have a single destination in mind. There's usually something I want to speak to that is greater than the sum of the individual thoughts and feelings. Even that description of the process is insufficient, really.

I don't meditate. I did experiment with it for a while but it bored me. I find my own dreams more interesting.


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## SilverMoon (Aug 6, 2010)

> connect different topics into a rational conclusion


 
I relate to this especially when I'm writing allegory. The topics in the characters are diametrically opposed but to service a final conclusion. Really more of a statement.



> There's usually something I want to speak to that is greater than the sum of the individual thoughts and feelings.


When I'm writing about The Nature of the Human Condition thoughts and feeling figure in strongly but there is an understanding, lesson by the work's end.

Like yourself I find meditation a bore but have tried creative visualization. I've provided you with a link to the book I own. It may or may not be your thing but worth giving it a little read. And, yes, dreams are fascinating. Topic would make for a good thread!




http://www.soulfulliving.com/creative_visualization.htm.


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## ppsage (Aug 6, 2010)

Natalie Goldberg is completely to blame for my ever getting mixed up in this absurd BS quagmire. Her stuff is more dangerous than heroin. Or tobacco.


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## SilverMoon (Aug 6, 2010)

Hi, ppsage. The intent of this thread was not to discuss Goldberg. I just provided a video for "inspiration", to get things going. And they did get going! Here's my OP. Would be great to hear about your process. Laurie



> *The Writer's World *
> 
> I thought this brief video would inspire discussion about how we go about our writing process. Where do we write and how does the environment where we chose to write affect us, our craft. Do we connect with ourselves spritually on some level? How do we get going when determined to get over writer's block?
> 
> Also interested if anyone gives themselves space before returning to edit. I tend to go at it immediately. Like sculpting before the clay drys. Hope you enjoy the video. Laurie​


​


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## ppsage (Aug 6, 2010)

"I feel like a spy in somebody else's body." A quote from Kerouac, according to Burroughs. So maybe. Seems like Kerouac sometimes thought that that person's body was trying to practice a sort of Zen. 

That's about it really, for process. 

Thinking sort of sucks, if one's trying for understanding, but whadurya else gonna do? I guess I might be more content with just spying, though, than Kerouac. 'Specially lately. 

I do a sort of writing practice. It's a little safer than LSD and makes reading more fun. Usually I remember that the point is a practice and not a writing but occasionally I'll lose selfawareness and post one of the adjectives and then the good folks around here have to set me straight again. I'm grateful for that.

I envy JR, and all the rest, whose thinking is not affected (or effected) by the subconscious. I can believe in their potential.

But it's still all Natalie's fault.


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## SilverMoon (Aug 6, 2010)

*LOL!*


> But it's still all Natalie's fault


 
Thanks for that. I like Jack's quote. Yes. In a way, we are a spy in someone elses body. _And _we should not only spy but steal. I'm not talking about plagiarizm.(God no, Rob) but about getting to "own" pieces of people and things. Hearltessly eaves drop, touch the table with the spilt coffee which you most likey did. OK two conscious efforts. But one cannot live this way. In constant state of alertness and analysis. Everyday there are a trillion (forget the exact count) of details taken in subconsciously, stored in the attic of our minds. When I'm writing it's sometimes like "Wow! Where the hell did that come from?". That attic lending out the right stuff at the right moment.

I can't write like your favorite woman but I'm going to try as an excersize. This is how it once went with me...



> I've written long hand many years ago and unlike Goldberg's neat pages we see in the video, my pages were full of crossed out words, arrows pointing to margins with word repalcements and then even annotations. A real mess.Yes. More cumbersome for me.


 
...and probably how it will go again. Unless, I'm in someone elses body.


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## ppsage (Aug 6, 2010)

That was a sort of BS answer to a sincere question so to apologize, I'll try again. I'm trying to think of a family values term for which BS can stand acronym but all that bubbles to the top is Barbara Streisand. Which relation to values is hard to determine. What can I be thinking? I hope while I'm working here to recapitulate myself, my first reply hasn't engendered too much of the balony it deserves.

I have heard (well, read actually) people say they are sometimes in the groove writing and the words just flowed out. They also say they have the whole idea for a {written piece} but it never comes. Sometimes people say they can't keep up with their thought, can't write it down before they forget. Sometimes people say they can't think of anything to write. There is in writing a physical component and a mental one. As in anything I suppose, but a bit edgier maybe in writing. I'm not talking about good writing here or publishable writing or even readable writing. Just a hand (mind's) eye coordination. Which can be practiced. Which is defininitely practiced in fifth grade but most of us let it lapse. We're a nation of lapsed writers. Now if one wants to be a 'writer,' which I do not, this is the minimum starting skill. Getting this coordination. 

Natural writers or accomplished writers or professional writers may not care or even realize that they are performing two skills at once which at one end entails paying strict attention to a mental process which I'll glibly jargon 'conscious intellectualization.' Persons interested in becoming professional may even suffer setbacks by emphasizing this understanding. But people who meditate may recognize a similarity. And may adopt writing 'practice' in another sense. The rest of it, longhand shorthand keep moving pen write in kitchen write with partner, well it's all good I guess but it's not the point. There's no writer block in following the wild mind but there's no book contract either. That's not what it's about.

Almost all my pieces which are not like, forum replies, were once writing practice. Even nonfiction like my jewelry making technical pieces or my newsletter reports have a short, brainstorming onto the page component. When I can't stop myself from trying fictionish prose stuff it usually waits a long time to be mined out of the journal again. Usually I journal by hand printing in a notebook, maybe because I don't carry a computer and like the outdoors but I also like the way pages record edits. I write only on the recto pages at first, on wide ruled and sometimes three or four 'writings in' will be visible at once. I'm not good at keeping this record on the computer. But I think all this detail is only good as example for avoidence.


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## The Backward OX (Aug 6, 2010)

I still want to know why this thread isn't in Writing Discussions, where it belongs. Baron can come trumpeting in here, going on about personal attacks, but not bothering about the things that matter.


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## Baron (Aug 6, 2010)

The Backward OX said:


> I still want to know why this thread isn't in Writing Discussions, where it belongs. Baron can come trumpeting in here, going on about personal attacks, but not bothering about the things that matter.


 
If you think this thread is on the wrong forum there are two options available to you; you can send a personal message to a moderator asking that it be moved or you can use the report button to do same.  That's if it really matters that much to you.


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## ppsage (Aug 6, 2010)

The Backward OX said:


> I still want to know why this thread isn't in Writing Discussions, where it belongs. Baron can come trumpeting in here, going on about personal attacks, but not bothering about the things that matter.



I think the main reason is an attempt to promote a more laid back and convivial approach to the topic. Not so much a professional meeting where decisions must be made, as an after dinner discussion on sofas around a fireplace, which may be welcome for those in the throes of winter. Just some personal reminiscence, a bit of jest. Like that. Not like some kind of inspirational seminar. No cover charge. Don't worry about getting your money's worth. Leave your issues at the door.


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## SilverMoon (Aug 6, 2010)

I think, the above, well put. As to your post addressing me. Accepted. I've never even heard of you so how could I know you were being "entirely" caustic. Everyone needs to vent now and then, so nice to meet you.

Your brought up many interesting points, points of views. Have a couple of questions



> Natural writers or accomplished writers or professional writers may not care or even realize that they are performing two skills at once which at one end entails paying strict attention to a mental process


What two simultaneous skills would you be referring to?



> There is in writing a physical component and a mental one


What about the tactile?



> Almost all my pieces which are not like, forum replies, were once writing practice


I would say that this approach, mind-set, would take allot of pressure off. Staring at that tabula raza, the proverbial blank page with too high expectations from oneself. Laurie


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## ppsage (Aug 6, 2010)

SilverMoon said:


> I think, the above, well put. As to your post addressing me. Accepted. I've never even heard of you so how could I know you were being "entirely" caustic. Everyone needs to vent now and then, so nice to meet you.
> 
> Your brought up many interesting points, points of views. Have a couple of questions
> 
> ...


 
The body, and more importantly, the mind, upon which Kerouac feels he is spying, is called, in the common vernacular, though not always in the Sutras, his own.


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## SilverMoon (Aug 6, 2010)

Thanks so much!


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## J.R. MacLean (Aug 6, 2010)

> Goldberg is a Buddhist, so we will assume she meditates. This led me to wonder if anyone experiences writing as being in a meditative state.
> 
> Like yourself I find meditation a bore
> -Silver Moon
> ...


 
Methought mine ears were burning! Prodded from some mystical Oregonian campsite!


Of course my thinking is affected (and effected) by my subconscious. By being present, one can become aware of this process. This slowly, slowly creates space, a disentanglement from thoughts of all kinds, including those that nurse hatreds, resentments, and pride in our 'highly evolved' selves. Then it is the limitless aliveness, the dance of energy in this very body right now that can be the source of expression. This is what Krishnamurti referred to as the awakening of intelligence. Intelligence as emanations of a total being rather than an intellectual re-arrangement of knowledge. And yes, this approach has huge potential. Many see it as the next step in human evolution, one necessary to our survival.

Meditation, as I understand it, is presence. Awareness of thoughts, sensations, all the senses, the subtle feelings and energies within the body. Ego gets bored. Presence cannot be.

So yeah, I try (and fail) to live and write from a meditative state.

And ppsage can share some of Natalie's blame for dragging me into this.




> Emancipate yourself from mental slavery
> None but ourselves can free our minds
> -Bob Marley


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## Blood (Aug 7, 2010)

[FONT=&quot]


J.R. MacLean said:


> Meditation, as I understand it, is presence. Awareness of thoughts, sensations, all the senses, the subtle feelings and energies within the body. Ego gets bored. Presence cannot be.
> 
> So yeah, I try (and fail) to live and write from a meditative state.


Meditation, as it should be understood, is absence. Absence of mind, absence of body, absence of awareness.  It is to be absolutely unfocused.  It is complete silence.  Not really good for writing. You can neither live nor write from a meditative state nor as a result of it.   Just visit there on occasion if you can find your way.  

Writing takes concentration.   

“Awareness of thoughts”?               [/FONT]


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## J.R. MacLean (Aug 7, 2010)

Blood said:


> [FONT=&quot]Meditation, as it should be understood, is absence. Absence of mind, absence of body, absence of awareness. It is to be absolutely unfocused. It is complete silence. Not really good for writing. You can neither live nor write from a meditative state nor as a result of it. Just visit there on occasion if you can find your way.
> 
> Writing takes concentration.
> 
> “Awareness of thoughts”?  [/FONT]


 

'SHOULD be understood?'   I hope you mean as you understand it?

Yes, awareness of thoughts, absolutely. Trees, thoughts, birdsongs, the newspaper. All exist within awareness.


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