# Accursed female dialogue



## EvermenEXE (May 27, 2013)

So I have a major issue in my novel, being as how about...6 of my characters (out of 16 or so) are female, being able to write female dialogue is important. The issue is I don't really know HOW to write as females. Here is an excerpt with an attempt of mine:



> "Hell of a way to jack off Emerson." Startled, he jolted from his chair unto the floor. Footsteps trailed about the room then stopped. A clicking sound echoed as the flick of the light switch turned on lights. Emerson recoiled underneath the chair to cover them from the sudden harsh light. He felt his collar lightly tugged, then violently as he was yanked from under the chair and thrown into the room beam of the light. He batted his eyes as the figure came into focus. A young woman in a uniform perched herself on the sideturned table.
> "Aleksandra Dimitriyev. Supervisor and Security Divsion Coordinator."
> "Uh-hum...Emerson Yeatherage....Accounting and Finances...w-w-what was that about master-?"
> "Nevermind, It's not important." She cut him off and withdrew from her pocket a pistol. "Here, I don't imagine you know how to use one of these but I'll show you later. Get your shit together it's gonna be a long drive."



my problem here is that I can't shake the fact that my female dialogue is EXTREMELY contrived, and more so masculine. As a result I lose the usual chemistry I have between my characters because I don't really know what they are saying in their heads.


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## dale (May 27, 2013)

lol. i love the female dialogue in my works. i mean, let's face it.....my created literary worlds are the only realm where women say exactly what i want them to. ha ha


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## Houston (May 27, 2013)

EvermenEXE said:


> my problem here is that I can't shake the fact that my female dialogue is EXTREMELY contrived, and more so masculine. As a result I lose the usual chemistry I have between my characters because I don't really know what they are saying in their heads.



If you can't escape it, make it your thing. Create a female character that* wants* to be masculine and contrived. I've seen it work before...


[video=youtube;nfxxr1nUHZc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfxxr1nUHZc[/video]


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## EvermenEXE (May 27, 2013)

@ Dale: Ouch! Haha Yea I can understand that perspective


@Houston: Well I can imagine doing that for the character Aleksandra, as it fits her history and way of doing things. But for the other five characters (all of which are very important to the story) it would be very odd for them to behave masculine in any way. I think my issue is I don't really know HOW females talk, in writing that is. I hear Stephen King's "Carrie" (or however it is spelled) is an exemplary work in the field of 'men writing as women'.

Does anyone have examples of well written female dialogue? Earlier today I scoured DeviantArt's: 'Literature' in hopes of finding some female dialogue, but I found it to be fairly mediocre ://.


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## dale (May 27, 2013)

EvermenEXE said:


> @ Dale: Ouch! Haha Yea I can understand that perspective@Houston: Well I can imagine doing that for the character Aleksandra, as it fits her history and way of doing things. But for the other five characters (all of which are very important to the story) it would be very odd for them to behave masculine in any way. I think my issue is I don't really know HOW females talk, in writing that is. I hear Stephen King's "Carrie" (or however it is spelled) is an exemplary work in the field of 'men writing as women'.Does anyone have examples of well written female dialogue? Earlier today I scoured DeviantArt's: 'Literature' in hopes of finding some female dialogue, but I found it to be fairly mediocre ://.


i can't remember if it's in "on writing' or "danse macbre", but stephen king talks about writing carrie, and he basically felt as you do now while he was writing it. he said he wasn't comfortable at all writing as his female characters in the book. he said something along the lines of feeling like it was a different planet or foreigncountry for him to go there. maybe read some female authors. that might help. or not. i say just go with it as you feel it. but what do i know.


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## Non Serviam (May 27, 2013)

Don't try to write female dialogue.  Try to write dialogue between interesting people who happen to be women.

In well-written stories, people don't speak naturally anyway.  Natural conversation is full of interjections and interruptions and exclamations, it's disjointed and swerves from topic to topic.  It works because people read visual cues (facial expressions, body language, etc.) to construct the meaning that's missing from the words.  In stories you don't have that, so you have to write dialogue that's clear and coherent as written.  The reader will very willingly join you in pretending that when your characters take turns to speak in orderly and structured sentences, that's perfectly realistic and natural.  And if they'll do that then they'll certainly suspend disbelief in the gender-related aspects of dialogue!

Also, if you try to write specifically "female" dialogue then you risk seriously annoying your female readers.  Who are, by and large, _very_ alert to gender stereotyping, and will by and large be very averse to it.  Remember that anyone who reads for pleasure is probably quite bright.


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## Houston (May 27, 2013)

I still don't see the point of trying to change them. There's what, 6 billion people on this planet? Chances are you can't write a character unlike millions of real people. There's tons of contrived and masculine women in real life, so who can tell you that your characters are odd for being so?

What I see you doing is like this "I can't write a old man who's wise". Don't do it then, make a old man who's a dumbass. Or a 8 year old who's too smart for someone their age. Sounds to me like you actually have real believable characters and you're trying to force them into a stereotype.


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## shadowwalker (May 27, 2013)

Agree with Non - don't write 'female' - write the character. How would _the character_ say it?


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## Dictarium (May 27, 2013)

To the above, what if he wants them to be feminine? Why should he change his vision for his story and his characters? I've never been a fan of altering a story because it's easier. If you think, formulaically, that a character should be feminine, find out how to make them feminine. If you want to write a book about a miner but you never worked as a miner and you had worked at McDonald's, that doesn't mean you change your idea because of them, it means you research about mining and the lives of miners. Same goes with writing in a feminine voice.


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## Gargh (May 27, 2013)

Dictarium said:


> To the above, what if he wants them to be feminine? Why should he change his vision for his story and his characters? I've never been a fan of altering a story because it's easier. If you think, formulaically, that a character should be feminine, find out how to make them feminine. If you want to write a book about a miner but you never worked as a miner and you had worked at McDonald's, that doesn't mean you change your idea because of them, it means you research about mining and the lives of miners. Same goes with writing in a feminine voice.



Define 'feminine'. You'll be the richest man in history.


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## JosephB (May 27, 2013)

All sweet and soft and nice smelling.


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## dale (May 27, 2013)

JosephB said:


> All sweet and soft and nice smelling.



yeah. i'd definitely snatch the pistol out of her hand and give her a roll.


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## Ariel (May 27, 2013)

My mother was a trained beautician.  She could do things with hair and make-up that was astounding and very feminine.  She cussed like a sailor, drank like a fish, and smoked like a chimney.

People are full of contradictions.  A woman can be feminine without being a stereotype.  It's insulting that you're saying that female characters somehow have a secret, magical language.


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## dale (May 27, 2013)

amsawtell said:


> My mother was a trained beautician.  She could do things with hair and make-up that was astounding and very feminine.  She cussed like a sailor, drank like a fish, and smoked like a chimney.
> 
> People are full of contradictions.  A woman can be feminine without being a stereotype.  It's insulting that you're saying that female characters somehow have a secret, magical language.



honestly, i don't think you should take his issue as insulting. i think the reason he's feeling "out of place" writing the dialogue of a woman is that he has a certain respect for women and so he's insecure about his words portraying a woman the wrong way. me? i don't have that problem. i'll just portray women as i see women.


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## JosephB (May 27, 2013)

dale said:


> yeah. i'd definitely snatch the pistol out of her hand and give her a roll.



I was trying to meet Gargh's challenge -- I could have used the money.


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## Non Serviam (May 27, 2013)

amsawtell said:


> My mother was a trained beautician.  She could do things with hair and make-up that was astounding and very feminine.  She cussed like a sailor, drank like a fish, and smoked like a chimney.
> 
> People are full of contradictions.  A woman can be feminine without being a stereotype.  It's insulting that you're saying that female characters somehow have a secret, magical language.



There's a whole scholarly field about the difference between masculine and feminine speech patterns.  Deborah Tannen, who's Professor of Linguistics at some highfalutin American university, wrote a rather important book on the subject called You just don't understand which I recommend reading.

In other cultures women have more obviously separate language forms, Japan being the extreme example (_joseigo_).  In English it's subtler and not detectable in all women, but to the extent that it's possible to generalise, there are feminine speech patterns and turns of phrase.

In fiction writing, though, dialogue shouldn't aim for realism.  It should advance the plot, show character, elaborate on a theme, and entertain in the process.


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## Trilby (May 27, 2013)

In the example you've provided the young woman, no matter how feminine she was, in order to do her job she would have to give off a tough in control persona. imo.


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## shadowwalker (May 27, 2013)

Dictarium said:


> To the above, what if he wants them to be feminine? Why should he change his vision for his story and his characters? I've never been a fan of altering a story because it's easier. If you think, formulaically, that a character should be feminine, find out how to make them feminine. If you want to write a book about a miner but you never worked as a miner and you had worked at McDonald's, that doesn't mean you change your idea because of them, it means you research about mining and the lives of miners. Same goes with writing in a feminine voice.



If he knows his characters, then the 'feminine' characters will speak accordingly. It really isn't a matter of gender speech patterns (and I would dispute that there really is such a thing) - it's a matter of how that character speaks. The miner thing makes no sense to me - my father was a railroad man, but that didn't mean that by observing him I would know how all railroad men acted or spoke. Every one of the other railroaders I met were different.


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## philistine (May 27, 2013)

You're acting as if women are some alien creature speaking a different tongue, completely unknown. Write the character, that's all.


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## EvermenEXE (May 27, 2013)

Non Serviam said:


> There's a whole scholarly field about the difference between masculine and feminine speech patterns.  Deborah Tannen, who's Professor of Linguistics at some highfalutin American university, wrote a rather important book on the subject called You just don't understand which I recommend reading.
> 
> In other cultures women have more obviously separate language forms, Japan being the extreme example (_joseigo_).  In English it's subtler and not detectable in all women, but to the extent that it's possible to generalise, there are feminine speech patterns and turns of phrase.
> 
> In fiction writing, though, dialogue shouldn't aim for realism.  It should advance the plot, show character, elaborate on a theme, and entertain in the process.



(Just want to say thanks to everyone for all their feedback, greatly appreciated!)

As someone fascinated with the linguistic field I will definitely check this book out.

Well I guess part of the problem is that I don't know how the character speaks, I know WHAT she would communicate, her sentiments and intended meaning, I just don't know how she would say them. It's a unique problem almost exclusive amongst my female characters because I just can't wrap my head around how they would say something. To have them act like my mind says they should, would sound and read almost as strange and uncomfortable as say....a cliche Texan Oil driller greeting someone with a Catholic Eulogy.

It's not that they are female and are speaking a different language, I just don't know how a female of that mindset would speak. I can envision male dialogue because I've met a great many males of similar personality types. I'm not in the workplace that exposes me to ANY females of the sort I write (high-ranking officials/News Commentator/Etc)


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## Non Serviam (May 27, 2013)

EvermenEXE said:


> It's not that they are female and are speaking a different language, I just don't know how a female of that mindset would speak.



Write down how a man would say it.  Then reverse the gender pronouns.  Done.

Do not worry about realism in dialogue.


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## Dictarium (May 27, 2013)

shadowwalker said:


> If he knows his characters, then the 'feminine' characters will speak accordingly. It really isn't a matter of gender speech patterns (and I would dispute that there really is such a thing) - it's a matter of how that character speaks. The miner thing makes no sense to me - my father was a railroad man, but that didn't mean that by observing him I would know how all railroad men acted or spoke. Every one of the other railroaders I met were different.


It was a different analogy not related to dialogue. The point is not being well-versed in something (the life and daily routine of a miner, perhaps) is not, in my opinion, a good reason to write that thing, subject, character-trait, idea off as being bad and unusable.


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## Dictarium (May 27, 2013)

gargh said:


> define 'feminine'. You'll be the richest man in history.





> having qualities or appearance traditionally associated with women, esp. Delicacy and prettiness.


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## Ariel (May 27, 2013)

Well, we're not communicating primarily in Japanese here are we?  Yes, I understand that women speak with different goals in mind; anthropologists have observed that even in young children white American females have a tendency to try and modulate their emotions in an attempt to keep group harmony.  To quote the study exactly I'd have to dig out my old textbook but I really don't have the time or patience to do so.

My comments on dialogue were in response to the comments above mine and towards the original post.  It is insulting to believe that high powered women have different speaking patterns than men.  Here's a hint, they don't.  They can't afford to do so.

Think back to how your mom would speak to you when she expected you to do something.  Watch a lot of movies with strong female characters--"Alien" for example.  (BTW, all the roles were written to be played by either gender but Ripley was cast as a woman only at the last minute).


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## dale (May 27, 2013)

amsawtell said:


> Well, we're not communicating primarily in Japanese here are we?  Yes, I understand that women speak with different goals in mind; anthropologists have observed that even in young children white American females have a tendency to try and modulate their emotions in an attempt to keep group harmony.  To quote the study exactly I'd have to dig out my old textbook but I really don't have the time or patience to do so.
> 
> My comments on dialogue were in response to the comments above mine and towards the original post.  It is insulting to believe that high powered women have different speaking patterns than men.  Here's a hint, they don't.  They can't afford to do so.
> 
> Think back to how your mom would speak to you when she expected you to do something.  Watch a lot of movies with strong female characters--"Alien" for example.  (BTW, all the roles were written to be played by either gender but Ripley was cast as a woman only at the last minute).



probably not best to read these type of "studies" they are generated to create an effect. much like fiction. the fact is: our society today is basically geared to make women feel inadequate. to feel inadequate for being women. that's why you feel insulted by this. to be honest, the sigourney weaver character in alien was as false as they come. except in a couple parts, she was basically a man with a more attractive physique. women don't act like that. i mean, it's kind of cool to watch a scantily clothed fearless woman walk around like she's dominating something....but the reality is....women don't really act like the character weaver played in that film.


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## EvermenEXE (May 27, 2013)

When writing as a character I like to go through several lines to see how they would say it. For instance, a character greeting someone they know relatively well: (note, each line is just an example, this isn't an actual scene in any way)


Emerson) Well hey you! How are you?

Sergei) Yo, howitzers goin?

Bennett) Yuh....Hey.

Mortimer) Well we have guests! Sit down! You want drinks or..?

Those lines are DRAMATICALLY different, but I can envision how they would say something and why. My issue is that with my female characters, this sort of exercise only produces very one-dimensional lines that are very generic.


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## Houston (May 27, 2013)

EvermenEXE said:


> Emerson) Well hey you! How are you?
> Sergei) Yo, howitzers goin?
> Bennett) Yuh....Hey.
> Mortimer) Well we have guests! Sit down! You want drinks or..?





EvermenEXE said:


> My issue is that with my female characters, this sort of exercise only produces *very one-dimensional lines that are very generic*.



And the lines Emerson, Sergei, Bennet, and Mortimer aren't?


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## EvermenEXE (May 27, 2013)

Is that referring to just how I posted those lines? No that isn't an actual conversation in any scene. That be a TERRIBLY written scene haha. I just wrote those lines to show myself the style in which the characters talk. What I usually do is have a mini-phrasebook and 'translate' the lines into how the characters would say them. Granted it would get tiring to hear the exact same lines again and again but it gives a good preview of their personality and dialogue type.


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## shadowwalker (May 27, 2013)

dale said:


> probably not best to read these type of "studies" they are generated to create an effect. much like fiction. the fact is: our society today is basically geared to make women feel inadequate. to feel inadequate for being women. that's why you feel insulted by this. to be honest, the sigourney weaver character in alien was as false as they come. except in a couple parts, she was basically a man with a more attractive physique. women don't act like that. i mean, it's kind of cool to watch a scantily clothed fearless woman walk around like she's dominating something....but the reality is....women don't really act like the character weaver played in that film.



Sorry, but yeah - women do act like that. Some women. Some don't. Many do. Many don't. Depends on what women you know, I suppose. Some women I know act like that. Some women I know don't. I know some men who don't act like that. Then again...


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## dale (May 27, 2013)

shadowwalker said:


> Sorry, but yeah - women do act like that. Some women. Some don't. Many do. Many don't. Depends on what women you know, I suppose. Some women I know act like that. Some women I know don't. I know some men who don't act like that. Then again...



ummm....excuse me....but i'm trying to be a sexist here. would you please not interrupt?   (lol. i swear that's a joke. don't kill me.)


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## Gamer_2k4 (May 27, 2013)

Non Serviam said:


> Don't try to write female dialogue.  Try to write dialogue between interesting people who happen to be women.



This.  I've never had trouble writing female dialogue.  Why? Because women are just people, and people all want and feel the same things.  They all can feel happy, or afraid, or sad.  Write in a way that makes sense for the character, and no reader will question it.


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## Gargh (May 28, 2013)

JosephB said:


> I was trying to meet Gargh's challenge -- I could have used the money.



_Congratulations Joseph! _

In true literary fashion your 'riches' will make their way to you in the most obscure fashion possible, once you finally reinterpret something you could have had anyway, and may not even be money.


Now put that in to dialogue - challenge upgraded.


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## Kyle R (May 28, 2013)

I don't consciously think of it when writing, but I do view my female characters as more _people-aware _and my male characters as more _object-aware._ For example, 

Michael will be obsessed with finding the prized jewel of Arlomanra, while Amy will be trying to convince Michael that the jewel will never bring back his father. 

Michael (male) focused on object, 
Amy (female) focused on Michael.

That's not always the case, of course, but I find it works naturally if my female characters are the more emotionally-aware characters, while the male characters are the more goal-driven, object-chasing movers and shakers.

Think Tony Stark vs. Pepper Potts in the recent I_ron Man _films. Tony does all the "guy stuff", obliviously, while Pepper sees all his flaws and mistakes as plain as day.

Maybe it's a kind of stereotypical elaboration of:
_
Grog hunts tiger. Grog kills tiger. Grog brings tiger back to cave.

Mrs. Grog waves her club at Grog and tells him there's more to life than killing tigers. That it's time for him to start looking at the bigger picture and planning for their future. Are they going to live in this dumpy cave the rest of their lives? What are they going to do when there are no more tigers to kill?

Grog scratches his head, looks at the dead tiger, and says, "Uhh?"

_


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## Tettsuo (May 28, 2013)

Most differences in speech between men and women are cultural, not ingrain.  Try understand how culture affects the characters and shape their thinking and you'll find the character's speech patterns.


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## JosephB (May 28, 2013)

I think this would be a fantastic time for an exhaustive discussion of the Bechdel Test. Who's with me??


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## Leyline (May 28, 2013)

JosephB said:


> I think this would be a fantastic time for an exhaustive discussion of the Bechdel Test. Who's with me??



None of the chicks. They're too busy discussing their boyfriends.


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## Ariel (May 28, 2013)

Not me, I'm busy trying to plan three D&D campaigns.  I'll be talking traps and rules.


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## Deleted member 49710 (May 28, 2013)

From what I can tell based on media portrayals, men communicate mostly through a system of grunts, making gestures with their fists for emotional emphasis. This is causing me a great deal of trouble in writing my male 1st person narrator. Please advise.

()

In all seriousness--I probably make my male characters think about sex more, but that's about the extent of my attempts to differentiate. Never had anyone tell me my boys were too ladylike or my ladies too boyish.


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## JosephB (May 28, 2013)

OK -- let's skip the Bechdel Test and go straight to the toilet seat jokes.

*grunts, shakes fists*


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## Dave Watson (May 28, 2013)

To quote the great Melvin Udall fromthe movie _As Good as it Gets_, when asked by a female fan how he writes women so well...

"I start with a man, then I take away reason and accountability."


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## Staff Deployment (May 28, 2013)

JosephB said:


> I think this would be a fantastic time for an exhaustive discussion of the Bechdel Test. Who's with me??



_One Hundred Percent Let's Do This_

Aww, nobody else? Darn.


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## Ariel (May 28, 2013)

Dave Watson said:


> To quote the great Melvin Udall fromthe movie _As Good as it Gets_, when asked by a female fan how he writes women so well...
> 
> "I start with a man, then I take away reason and accountability."



Fella wanted me to quote that!  I keep telling him to start his own account.


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## mblank (May 29, 2013)

Forget that the characters are supposed to be female.  They're people first, and as much as there are differences in the male and female perspective generally, this doesn't so much hold for individual characters.  If your character is supposed to be a certain way, have their speech support that without worry about masculine or feminine too much.


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