# Experimenting with planning rather than jumping straight in



## Pepys (Feb 26, 2018)

Joining this site has been a great motivator and I feel a renewed sense of determination to crack on and complete a full length novel. Normally I'm not a great one for planning as I've always thought it stifles creativity, but that's not been a successful strategy for me thus far, so I've decided to try a different approach.


As a first step in my planning experiment, today I've completed my short (1 page) novel synopsis.  So far, so good. Instead of stifling creativity, my head is buzzing with excitement and ideas, so now I'm about to start on my character outlines. 

I'd be interested to know if any other former fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants writers have made better progress when they took the time to do some proper planning? Or did you feel that it did stifle your creativity?


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## moderan (Feb 26, 2018)

Can't work with an outline but I do a ton of research and form plenty of scenes before writing narrative.


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## nanabanana (Feb 26, 2018)

Before writing a chapter I think a lot about everything that will happen: the scenes that will take place, their order, important parts and so on. When I've decided everything, I start writing the chapter, and really try to write each paragraph in the best way possible. After I've completed the chapter (or sometimes halfway through it, too) I go back at its start and edit things I don't like. This isn't an extreme planning but it really helps me figuring everything out.


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## Pepys (Feb 26, 2018)

That's interesting, you both seem to avoid formal outlines, but you do discipline yourselves to do some proper planning. That's something I've only ever done once before; usually I just get the general idea and plough straight in, then run out of steam at about 10,000 words. It's a demoralising pattern. 

I'll be interested to see if my new method yields results as it goes against my writerly instincts; yet, in other areas of my life, I'm a meticulous planner, so it seems strange that I've been so averse to planning my fiction up to this point.


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## Birb (Feb 26, 2018)

i end up knowing how I want the story to begin and end (because I think it through beforehand) then just write wherever it takes me.


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## moderan (Feb 26, 2018)

Pepys said:


> That's interesting, you both seem to avoid formal outlines, but you do discipline yourselves to do some proper planning. That's something I've only ever done once before; usually I just get the general idea and plough straight in, then run out of steam at about 10,000 words. It's a demoralising pattern.
> 
> I'll be interested to see if my new method yields results as it goes against my writerly instincts; yet, in other areas of my life, I'm a meticulous planner, so it seems strange that I've been so averse to planning my fiction up to this point.



I need to have things clear in my mind before I can write about them. A novel is just a set of scenes, and as such, is an organic process (to me). Before I've put 'pen' to 'paper', I've spent hundreds of hours thinking about what I would like to see happen.


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## Pepys (Feb 27, 2018)

moderan said:


> I need to have things clear in my mind before I can write about them. A novel is just a set of scenes, and as such, is an organic process (to me). Before I've put 'pen' to 'paper', I've spent hundreds of hours thinking about what I would like to see happen.



Oh dear, this seems to be where I've been going wrong. I get an idea, mull it over for a few days and then jump straight in to writing chapter 1, not having a clue whether the story is meaty enough to support a whole novel or just has enough meat for a short story. 

I plough doggedly forwards, making things up as I go along, branching off in ways I never even thought of when I had the original idea, sometimes changing the story (not just the plot) beyond recognition. Often I backtrack to the beginning to change from 1st to 3rd POV (or vice versa). 

At about the 10,000 - 15,000 word mark the realisation hits me that I've no idea where I'm going with the story. To make matters worse, the execution is poor because I've not planned each scene, so I've written something which is flat and completely lacking in tension. 

_Takes deep calming breath! 

_So now it's time to discipline myself to do a better job! I'm using the Snowflake method to see if that helps me with planning and structuring my novel. I'll be interested to see if it's a method I can adopt or adapt to suit my needs, or if I need to keep experimenting until I find an approach that I can live with. It goes completely against the grain for me to plan; I have to keep telling myself that it's not simply procrastination or a colossal waste of time and creative energy. I definitely intend to give this approach a proper chance, rather than fall at the first hurdle.


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## Olly Buckle (Feb 27, 2018)

Like the others, it takes place in my head, but I can wander round for days or weeks sometimes adjusting and playing with a story in my head. Sometimes there will be additions or subtractions during the writing, but mostly I know where I am going by the time I sit down to do it.


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## Pete_C (Feb 27, 2018)

You need planning of some sort. Just writing it as it pops into your head is okay to a degree, but it makes hard to generate logical sub-plots unless you have an idea of where the story will be going. A regular mistake of new writers is to add no sub-plots or side-stories, which can make a novel something of a less engaging affair.

I always tend to have milestones in my head at various stages of the story, and whilst I will deviate between those I always need to get back to the next one before progressing. This can also ensure that sub-plots don't just fade away or get forgotten.


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## bdcharles (Feb 27, 2018)

I don't overplan. I like to just have an idea or general goal in mind, one or two waypoints that I rather like and that make narrative sense, and pave the way there with everything else as I go. If I plan too much, the joy of discovery goes out of it. But I am vaguely conscious that I probably could plan more. I just don't want to


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## Bayview (Feb 27, 2018)

For me it varies from story to story and especially genre to genre. For romance, the structure of the story is more or less inherent in the genre. I already know what the ending is going to be... the main characters have to be together and happy. So I generally don't outline or plan beyond knowing what the central conflict is (the thing that's keeping them from being together). I just explore as I go.

For other genres, genres that are more plot-based, less character-dependent, I generally try to outline more. I'm not particularly good at it and almost always end up deviating from the plan within the first few chapters, but then I make a _new_ plan and write a few chapters according to it, then deviate, then make a new plan, etc. Luckily my planning generally takes the form of an hour or so of notes, not endless ruminations.

But I never write the really, really plotty stuff like murder mysteries. For them I assume you'd have to have things planned out pretty carefully in order to get the clues and whatever dropped at the right time.


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## ironpony (Feb 27, 2018)

It depends on what you mean by outline cause I sort of start with one in my head, sort of not.  I do a lot of planning before actual writing.  Usually I will come with a premise first, then the theme of the premise, then the best way to end and conclude that theme of it.

Then I will come up with the characters to carry that theme to where I want it to go.  Although I might come up with the characters first, before coming up with the ending.  Then I will do a lot of planning and ask for opinions before doing most of the writing.


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## Ralph Rotten (Feb 28, 2018)

Pepys; It may not be steam you are running out of after 10k words.  You may be painting yourself into a corner. 

I don't create a formal outline, but I let a story idea bang around in the back of my mind for a year or more before I write it.  I have found that when I just jump in I eventually write myself into a corner and either I have to fabricate some fake way out, or the story needs massive amounts of editing to correct the problem.  So I mull over a story your months, including acting out (or talking thru) many of the big scenes.  

In addition to the big overview of the story, I also like to flesh out the next day's scenes by working through them and imagining myself as one of the characters.  I work out the details of the scene today, and write it tomorrow morning at 0400.  


As for designing characters before writing, here's the thing; you can plan and plot all you want about your characters, but *until you have written those first 100 pages, you really don't know them*.  I go into a story with a general idea of what kind of a person each character is, but they develop and come alive as I am writing.  I can't tell you how many times I have had to change the story because of my characters.


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## moderan (Mar 1, 2018)

Pepys said:


> Oh dear, this seems to be where I've been going wrong. I get an idea, mull it over for a few days and then jump straight in to writing chapter 1, not having a clue whether the story is meaty enough to support a whole novel or just has enough meat for a short story.
> 
> I plough doggedly forwards, making things up as I go along, branching off in ways I never even thought of when I had the original idea, sometimes changing the story (not just the plot) beyond recognition. Often I backtrack to the beginning to change from 1st to 3rd POV (or vice versa).
> 
> ...



It takes time to determine what works best for you. Bayview had good points about genre also. I write sf/dark fantasy/horror/noir with varying degrees of plottiness. My things tend to be atmosphere-dense and character-driven, with a good deal of worldbuilding involved.
Otoh I'm a journalist so I can organize on the fly. I did do a novel according to outline once. It sucked. Great ideas, not enough personal investment, and it showed.
You might be the type that needs a beta reader/nanny to noodge you every so often. I have a couple. "Hey," they say. "Where's the words? I don't have anything to read." And so perforce I must provide. Then we talk about the what-it-is of the what-I-did.
Sometimes I just make stuff up, if I'm up against an anthology deadline. It usually gets bounced. No urgency makes for bad story.



Ralph Rotten said:


> Pepys; It may not be steam you are running out of after 10k words.  You may be painting yourself into a corner.
> 
> I don't create a formal outline, but I let a story idea bang around in the back of my mind for a year or more before I write it.  I have found that when I just jump in I eventually write myself into a corner and either I have to fabricate some fake way out, or the story needs massive amounts of editing to correct the problem.  So I mull over a story your months, including acting out (or talking thru) many of the big scenes.
> 
> ...



Ralph knows what he's talking about. So does Bayview. They write for publication...which is a different animal than hobby-writing.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 1, 2018)

Pete_C said:


> You need planning of some sort. Just writing it as it pops into your head is okay to a degree, but it makes hard to generate logical sub-plots unless you have an idea of where the story will be going. A regular mistake of new writers is to add no sub-plots or side-stories, which can make a novel something of a less engaging affair.



Depends  bit what you are writing, Pete. There are accounts of people who write children's books and detective stories within days, simply sitting down and writing them, but I guess stuff like sub-plots doesn't count much as far as variation in plot goes. It may go against the grain with your more thoughtful readers, but there are a large number who want to know exactly where things are going, comfortable and predictable. It takes all sorts.


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## Pete_C (Mar 1, 2018)

Olly Buckle said:


> Depends  bit what you are writing, Pete. There are accounts of people who write children's books and detective stories within days, simply sitting down and writing them, but I guess stuff like sub-plots doesn't count much as far as variation in plot goes. It may go against the grain with your more thoughtful readers, but there are a large number who want to know exactly where things are going, comfortable and predictable. It takes all sorts.



A fair point, Olly, but is the two days just writing something they have thought through? I don't tend to make notes or write out a plan, but I work elements of the story in my head almost constantly. My current WIP is flying by at a frantic pace but the story has been thought about for a couple of years now!


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 1, 2018)

> but is the two days just writing something they have thought through?



Well, I suppose they thought it through originally, but I an thinking people like Enid Blyton or AA Fair/Errol Stanley Gardener. Their books are prtty formuaic, but both of them reportedly just sat down and typed, book after book after book.


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## Pepys (Mar 2, 2018)

I want to thank everyone who's contributed to this thread - I really appreciate you taking the time to respond with your tips and advice. You've all given me so much food for thought and given me some really good advice - thank you! My head is buzzing....


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## Pete_C (Mar 2, 2018)

Olly Buckle said:


> Well, I suppose they thought it through originally, but I an thinking people like Enid Blyton or AA Fair/Errol Stanley Gardener. Their books are prtty formuaic, but both of them reportedly just sat down and typed, book after book after book.


Imagine how many more cash-cows masterpieces they could have churned out if find and replace had been a standard typewriter feature.


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## Pepys (Mar 2, 2018)

I must confess that I'm feeling totally humbled by what I've learned since starting this thread. I thought I knew something about the craft of writing fiction, having done it off and on all my life. It turns out that I have no idea about even rudimentary basic stuff like three act structure, character arc, action and reaction, narrative voice etc. It's akin to thinking that because I can pick out Twinkle Twinkle Little Star on the piano I'm ready to tackle Liszt's Campanella. I am aghast at how much I have to learn and I feel like hiding behind the sofa and crying.

It seems that being a reader isn't sufficient preparation for being a writer. I'm beginning to realise that I also need to properly study craft and theory, learn from the masters, understand the rules, know something about psychology and motivation, hone my skills and put in the hours and hours and hours of effort required to earn my stripes.

And it appears that there are no shortcuts...


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## bdcharles (Mar 2, 2018)

Pepys said:


> I must confess that I'm feeling totally humbled by what I've learned since starting this thread. I thought I knew something about the craft of writing fiction, having done it off and on all my life. It turns out that I have no idea about even rudimentary basic stuff like three act structure, character arc, action and reaction, narrative voice etc. It's akin to thinking that because I can pick out Twinkle Twinkle Little Star on the piano I'm ready to tackle Liszt's Campanella. I am aghast at how much I have to learn and I feel like hiding behind the sofa and crying.
> 
> It seems that being a reader isn't sufficient preparation for being a writer. I'm beginning to realise that I also need to properly study craft and theory, learn from the masters, understand the rules, know something about psychology and motivation, hone my skills and put in the hours and hours and hours of effort required to earn my stripes.
> 
> And it appears that there are no shortcuts...



Don't be. And don't get too hung up on rules. In any case, I'm sure you do know something of the craft, so that those things that you mention, narrative arc and such, become fun tricks to play with next time you set pen to paper. Chances are, if you have read alot, you may have taken the shortcut already and are probably aware of those techniques but just hadn't named them yet. Most of all though, you need passion and enjoyment of the craft.


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## Pepys (Mar 2, 2018)

bdcharles said:


> don't get too hung up on rules.



I won't, but I think it's good to understand the rules even if you go ahead and break them.



bdcharles said:


> you need passion and enjoyment of the craft.


 Amen to that! I like applied studying and I want to learn, so I'm not put off at the thought of putting in the leg work; I'm just a little chagrined by my former hubris!

Thanks for your encouragement!


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 2, 2018)

Pepys said:


> I must confess that I'm feeling totally humbled by what I've learned since starting this thread. I thought I knew something about the craft of writing fiction, having done it off and on all my life. It turns out that I have no idea about even rudimentary basic stuff like three act structure, character arc, action and reaction, narrative voice etc. It's akin to thinking that because I can pick out Twinkle Twinkle Little Star on the piano I'm ready to tackle Liszt's Campanella. I am aghast at how much I have to learn and I feel like hiding behind the sofa and crying.
> 
> It seems that being a reader isn't sufficient preparation for being a writer. I'm beginning to realise that I also need to properly study craft and theory, learn from the masters, understand the rules, know something about psychology and motivation, hone my skills and put in the hours and hours and hours of effort required to earn my stripes.
> 
> And it appears that there are no shortcuts...



I am not sure about this, I think it is possible to pick up the language of writing through reading, much as a four year old will have picked up the grammar of language. There are people who write good books without any formalunderstanding.


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## Ralph Rotten (Mar 2, 2018)

Writing is like any other skill; it takes practice to be good enough to compete in the market.  
With drivers, until you drive at least 100k miles you are not really an experienced driver.
For writing I'd guess that number to be about 200k words.
Before I ever wrote anything worth selling, I wrote a whole lotta crap.


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## Pepys (Apr 5, 2018)

In case anyone's curious, I'm making slow but steady progress on my novel. I haven't got very far, just 11,000 words (8 scenes) completed in first draft, but the remaining 60-odd scenes are planned and sketched out. So I know where I'm going (a first for me!), but it's taking me a long time to get there. 

I'm only managing between 500 and 1000 words a day on the average day because I'm obsessively editing and polishing what I've already written. I'm pretty sure this is a mistake and I should just forge ahead and worry about the quality in the second draft, but I can't seem to resist the temptation to keep going back and giving each supposedly complete scene another little tweak...and then another...and then another. 

I fear this constant tweaking and polishing in the creation stage will make the story stale far quicker for me than if I just ploughed ahead and broke fresh ground every day. I'm only 11,000 words in and I'm already having a huge crisis of confidence; it doesn't bode well, does it? I need to find a way to turn off my inner perfectionist.


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## Jack of all trades (Apr 5, 2018)

Pepys said:


> In case anyone's curious, I'm making slow but steady progress on my novel. I haven't got very far, just 11,000 words (8 scenes) completed in first draft, but the remaining 60-odd scenes are planned and sketched out. So I know where I'm going (a first for me!), but it's taking me a long time to get there.
> 
> I'm only managing between 500 and 1000 words a day on the average day because I'm obsessively editing and polishing what I've already written. I'm pretty sure this is a mistake and I should just forge ahead and worry about the quality in the second draft, but I can't seem to resist the temptation to keep going back and giving each supposedly complete scene another little tweak...and then another...and then another.
> 
> I fear this constant tweaking and polishing in the creation stage will make the story stale far quicker for me than if I just ploughed ahead and broke fresh ground every day. I'm only 11,000 words in and I'm already having a huge crisis of confidence; it doesn't bode well, does it? I need to find a way to turn off my inner perfectionist.



This is, in part, why I don't outline.

For me, it's not an inner critic. It's that the story is known. There's not the feeling of "what's gonna happen next". So some of the joy is dampened.

I wish you luck with your endeavour, however. May it work out well for you.


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## Cephus (Apr 5, 2018)

I am a dedicated planner, I can't do things by the seat of my pants.  I intricately plan every aspect of a story before I put the first word to paper.  I know every character backwards and forwards, I know what every single chapter is going to be about, I know the story so well that by the time I actually get writing, there isn't much drama in it.  I'm just translating the plans to paper (or screen as the case may be).


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## Pepys (Apr 5, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> This is, in part, why I don't outline.
> 
> For me, it's not an inner critic. It's that the story is known. There's not the feeling of "what's gonna happen next". So some of the joy is dampened.
> 
> I wish you luck with your endeavour, however. May it work out well for you.



I know what you mean, and that's a definite worry too. I've always been a pantster and I think I enjoy the writing process more when it's all a bit of a trip into the unknown; trouble is, I always run out of road. Hence this experiment. If it works - great. If it doesn't, at least I'll have given it a shot.


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## Pepys (Apr 5, 2018)

Cephus said:


> I am a dedicated planner, I can't do things by the seat of my pants.  I intricately plan every aspect of a story before I put the first word to paper.  I know every character backwards and forwards, I know what every single chapter is going to be about, I know the story so well that by the time I actually get writing, there isn't much drama in it.  I'm just translating the plans to paper (or screen as the case may be).



And you don't find that boring? I'm genuinely curious. Do you still feel the thrill of creation when you know the story so well? I'm worried I'll just find it stale and boring.


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## Theglasshouse (Apr 5, 2018)

Don't quote me on this because it could be I am not completely right as I read on this and apply it. But this was discussed in a separate thread about what is plot versus story. I found out that cause is the emotion, the effect is the more or less the consequences, or actions. But don't quote me on this. I outlined or had an idea of how to write the first part. The second part is where everything is undiscovered. I search for the emotion of each moment and character and how they feel. Then I know what to write next because they take an action. That way you can write the unconscious and conscious parts of a story if that makes sense which I hope isn't confusing. 

Plot is thus more complicated than we think. This fully explains em forester's definition of plot. If you want to find more, I would add a book by Linda Cowgill to the list. It teaches the basics. (on plotting, not her book on how to write a film which I plan to pick up, but that is what I do).

I did a 30 page summary of the book. So I know more or less, what the book says at least.

Conflict, obstacles, desires (orchestration of opposites), characters are all in her book explained if anyone wants to buy it. It's recommended by me. (paperback, be prepared to make a book summary about 30 pages long)


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## Cephus (Apr 5, 2018)

Pepys said:


> And you don't find that boring? I'm genuinely curious. Do you still feel the thrill of creation when you know the story so well? I'm worried I'll just find it stale and boring.



Nope, why would I?  My job is a writer, not a reader.  It isn't to be surprised, it's to put a story on the page that may surprise others.  My way eliminates a lot of re-writes and trying to make a story make sense.  It makes sense the first time through.  It only needs cleanup.  But of course, people can do what they want, it's their life, not mine.


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## Blackstone (Apr 5, 2018)

The whole dichotomy between those who 'plan' and those who 'pants' is misleading. It's kind of like genre, it instills a sense of binary-ism, or tribalism almost, into what is actually far more of a spectrum.

Some writers plan everything. Some plan nothing. Most of us do something in between. *Did you know, for instance, that a plan doesn't actually have to be written down?* I know, mind-blowing huh? So if you ever have lain in bed and decided what you will do when you wake up the next morning, guess what, you're a planner...

Except you're not a _real _planner because of that, are you? You don't outline every last thing and write biographies of all your characters and draw survey-quality maps or whatever else. You don't buy a plane ticket to Belize because a character happens to go there. That's fine, that's probably most of us. Most of us are willing and able to change direction midway through if we feel something not working without freaking out and starting over. But most of us, too, like to have _some_ ideaof where we are going lest we go nuts.

This is one of those things where it really is about figuring out what works for you. Cannot overstate that enough. Most people I have met who successfully produce published (or publishable at least) fiction cannot function as absolute pantsers all of the time because of continuity problems resulting. You need to be able to carry all the information in your head and manage it in such a way to avoid plot-holes and  basic contradictions while still remaining in a creative mindset. 

It's one thing if its a simple story with only a couple of characters and one or two points of view, but it is very challenging for more advanced, lengthier pieces with interwoven pathways between five or more major characters and a supporting cast. Most of us need some form of forethought about the main aspects of what we are doing, a kind of map even if it is not written out in careful detail. We need to know our character very well, and have an idea about their route through the labyrinth. What works for you, works.

I will say I have always benefited - and therefore always recommend - some form of outline at the start. I call it a sketch, though, and that's what it is. I write a brief summary of the concept with some bare bone factoids on my characters and the principle turning points. Often I include an ending. Thing is, once I begin the draft I fully expect, intend even, for it to get destroyed. As I work through my ideas and add, subtract, multiply, divide, the goal is not to follow my plan but to gradually abandon it. 

Always have a lot of fun looking back at the genesis sketch once the book has been completed and seeing how the idea has developed.


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## Ralph Rotten (Apr 5, 2018)

I typically let a story develop in the back of my mind for a year or more while I piece it together. Without adequate planning you can write yourself into a corner.  Getting out of that corner usually requires multiple organ transplants and the patient usually dies on the table.

I usually only plan the top tier of characters, and make up 2nd stringers along the way.


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## Jack of all trades (Apr 6, 2018)

Cephus said:


> Nope, why would I?  My job is a writer, not a reader.  It isn't to be surprised, it's to put a story on the page that may surprise others.  My way eliminates a lot of re-writes and trying to make a story make sense.  It makes sense the first time through.  It only needs cleanup.  But of course, people can do what they want, it's their life, not mine.



This seems to be implying that anyone working without an outline has to do a lot of rewrites. That's not true. It can make sense the first time throught just as well without a plan. Sometimes plans have problems, too, you know. Rewriting may be necessary even if you plan.


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## JJBuchholz (Apr 6, 2018)

Pepys said:


> I'd be interested to know if any other former fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants writers have made better progress when they took the time to do some proper planning? Or did you feel that it did stifle your creativity?



Many years ago, I always used to just jump into stories that were swirling around in my head, and start writing. I ironed out the details as I wrote, the side effect being too many other ideas would get in the way and make a jumble. For the last few years or more, I have been making a storyboard in a notebook for every story I write. Planning more of it out ahead of time acts as an outline, helping me refine the idea when I start writing, and giving me a more clear direction of where the story is going. I won't ever go back to my old way, as this one is not only more efficient, but saves time as well.

-JJB


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## Ralph Rotten (Apr 6, 2018)

Pepys said:


> I'd be interested to know if any other former fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants writers have made better progress when they took the time to do some proper planning? Or did you feel that it did stifle your creativity?




Nothing stunts creativity like writing yourself into a corner and have to perform multiple organ transplants just to fix it...and when its done it looks like Mary Shelly's monster. Yep, all that flying by the seat of your pants gets you into trouble. Heart surgery on a 150k word book is a serious PITA.



As a side note; contrary to popular myth, pilots are specifically trained to not fly by the seat of their pants.  Its a standard lesson, instructor puts you under a hood, completely blind, then they mess up the trim tab and tell you to keep her level. Every student always thinks they'll be the one who does it perfectly...but when the teacher finally tells you to lift your hood you find your aircraft craned up to one side, a few knots from a stall.

The lesson is that your ass is a lousy pilot, so *always *use your instruments.


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## Cephus (Apr 6, 2018)

JJBuchholz said:


> Many years ago, I always used to just jump into stories that were swirling around in my head, and start writing. I ironed out the details as I wrote, the side effect being too many other ideas would get in the way and make a jumble. For the last few years or more, I have been making a storyboard in a notebook for every story I write. Planning more of it out ahead of time acts as an outline, helping me refine the idea when I start writing, and giving me a more clear direction of where the story is going. I won't ever go back to my old way, as this one is not only more efficient, but saves time as well.



This is especially true if you have a complicated plot with lots of interweaving threads, you can't keep track of them all if you're just writing by the seat of your pants.  By planning, at least in my case, I can figure out what has to tie in to what, how all of the details fall and how it works out in the end.  I don't have to go back and re-read a finished manuscript and realize that I forgot about characters half way through the book or I forgot to drop in clues for mysteries along the way.  I get it right the first time and any re-writes are for readability, not plot.

I love watching people pretending that their way is the only way.  If it works for you, do it.  Don't go around criticizing people who do things you don't.


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## Jack of all trades (Apr 6, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Nothing stunts creativity like writing yourself into a corner and have to perform multiple organ transplants just to fix it...and when its done it looks like Mary Shelly's monster. Yep, all that flying by the seat of your pants gets you into trouble. Heart surgery on a 150k word book is a serious PITA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




And yet, some pilots are certified to fly without instruments, because instruments can fail.

You are implying that 100% of books written without an outline go badly. I doubt that's true.

This is not really about which is better, plotting or pantsing. Why are plotters feeling threatened? I couldn't care less who plots. I don't feel the need to convert plotters to pantsing. Sheesh! If you think plotting is great, do it. But stop implying all my books are bad, or like Frankenstein! (Organ transplants! What nonsense.)


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## Blackstone (Apr 7, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Nothing stunts creativity like writing yourself into a corner and have to perform multiple organ transplants just to fix it...and when its done it looks like Mary Shelly's monster. Yep, all that flying by the seat of your pants gets you into trouble. Heart surgery on a 150k word book is a serious PITA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey Ralph,

You are applying some fairly strong language here that borders close to absolutes I would caution you from crossing.

Most writers I know plan to varying degrees (see my previous post on this thread) but I do know one who doesn't - at least nothing written down. He doesn't do multiple drafts either. 

He writes a single draft and, get his, he writes it on a Corona typewriter from the seventies (he's a slightly older gentleman). He writes adventure fiction, sort of modern day Hardy Boys stuff, so nothing particularly groundbreaking or complicated but he sells quite well in his home country (Ireland) and churns out several new editions to his series each year. 

Point is that I could never work like that, nor would want to, but it has sustained his retirement. As a former schoolteacher and newspaper editor he's been "working with the words" (as he puts it) for more than sixty years and therefore has no qualms about hammering out pages at astonishing speed and sending them off without any editing beyond a brief glance to make sure the ribbon didn't crap out. Once complete he has his wife take the finished papers to the post office and mails it to his agent in London, who he has had for years. No copies kept, no computers, nothing. It's practically stone age.

So yeah, instruments are good - but not all aircraft have them and not all pilots need them and coming up with neat allegories about "What Works" is only as good as the person is receiving the advice. If somebody wants to attempt to wing it on writing a novel, I say let them try. We can't tell them it won't work, we can only tell them_ it never worked for us_.


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## Ralph Rotten (Apr 7, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> And yet, some pilots are certified to fly without instruments, because instruments can fail.
> 
> You are implying that 100% of books written without an outline go badly. I doubt that's true.
> 
> This is not really about which is better, plotting or pantsing. Why are plotters feeling threatened? I couldn't care less who plots. I don't feel the need to convert plotters to pantsing. Sheesh! If you think plotting is great, do it. But stop implying all my books are bad, or like Frankenstein! (Organ transplants! What nonsense.)



1) All pilots must be instrument proficient to get their ticket or cert...even sport pilots. If you cannot fly under the hood then you do not get a PPL. I know because I have one.

2) I never implied that books that are not outlined are not as good as those that are.  As I have mentioned in many previous posts, my outlining is done in my head, I don't write down any of it until I start writing.

3) "Stop implying my books are bad!"
How did this become about you?
We're having a discussion about pre-planning a book.  The only one admonishing your work is you.
What I was saying is that I have written books all willy-nilly, without fleshing them out, and it got me into a lot of trouble.  The work that had to be done to fix the stories often killed them.  You yourself recently mentioned that you were having to change the killer in a story, mid-way through the novel.  It's a PITA to repair something like that-hence I pre-plan before I write anything.

No one is attacking your work, but we are tapping your phone.


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## Ralph Rotten (Apr 7, 2018)

Blackstone said:


> You are applying some fairly strong language here that borders close to absolutes I would caution you from crossing.



What borders?  What are you talking about?


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## Blackstone (Apr 7, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> What borders?  What are you talking about?



I think I made it quite clear by the post I quoted. 

You (and by no means only you) seem to be stating that planning/outlining/etc is needed to ensure integrity of plot that “all that flying by the seat of your pants gets you into trouble”. 

It isn’t, it doesn’t. There are tons of examples of writers who function very well in their genre 'flying by the seat of their pants' and I gave the example of one I know personally. You should therefore avoid absolutist statements like the one above, is all I am saying.

Thank you sir.


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## Jack of all trades (Apr 7, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> 1) All pilots must be instrument proficient to get their ticket or cert...even sport pilots. If you cannot fly under the hood then you do not get a PPL. I know because I have one.
> 
> 2) I never implied that books that are not outlined are not as good as those that are.  As I have mentioned in many previous posts, my outlining is done in my head, I don't write down any of it until I start writing.
> 
> ...



My point about the pilot's license is that flying with instruments is not the ONLY way to fly, just like writing with an outline is not the ONLY way to write. 

As for changing my mind, that could have happened even with an outline!! Outlines, written or in your head, don't save you from everything! They don't save you from having a sudden, new inspiration to make the story better. They don't save you from beta readers getting bored or lost or whatever. Books may need sections rewritten EVEN IF outlined and planned. Unless you don't bother with beta readers. Or care about having a better story. Or whatever happens.

I think traditional publishers, in addition to a great opening, yada yada, want writers who are capable and willing to make changes. And ones that don't resemble Frankenstein.


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## Sir-KP (Apr 7, 2018)

At the OP:

I have an outline in my mind that's inspired from thoughts and such. I know what's going on with the story from the bigger picture. But when it comes to writing chapter by chapter, that's a whole new business to take care of.

But then again before writing it, I know what's going on in the chapter(s) I'm about to write. And during the writing, I will do research when it's necessary. 
Inspirations comes all the time and that may lead to changes in ideas and sparks the need to research again. This is where my story will be polished.

Not sure if this is an efficient and effective way to write.


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## Ralph Rotten (Apr 8, 2018)

Blackstone said:


> I think I made it quite clear by the post I quoted.
> 
> You (and by no means only you) seem to be stating that planning/outlining/etc is needed to ensure integrity of plot that “all that flying by the seat of your pants gets you into trouble”.
> 
> ...



Where are you getting this felgerkarb?  I never said that one way was better than the other.
But now that you bring it up, *yes, it is better to do some planning before you start writing a book*.  
Writing stream-of-consciousness is a great way to write in class where you are trying to get your legs, but when it comes to real marketable work, you need to do your homework before starting a project that's gonna be >100,000 words otherwise you will write yourself into a corner.  I know because I've done it multiple times. I have written books willy-nilly, then had to fix them, and it was sheer drudgery.  After killing a few patients that way I learned that it is better to plan the story in advance, and do doublebacks every 100 pages or so.  

Writing half-formed ideas is something best left to vanity press. A professional writer plans out their work.


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## Blackstone (Apr 8, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Where are you getting this felgerkarb?  I never said that one way was better than the other.



Sure you did. Here.



Ralph Rotten said:


> Without adequate planning you can write yourself into a corner. Getting out of that corner usually requires multiple organ transplants and the patient usually dies on the table.



You made this same point in different ways several different times. I'm not about to aid in the reduction of good discussion into some pointless argument over what you said/did not say or meant/did not mean or to what extent. Nobody wants to read that. All I want to say is that I am not the only one who interpreted your comment as being heavily in favor of doing things a certain way. 

And so it turns out...




Ralph Rotten said:


> But now that you bring it up, *yes, it is better to do some planning before you start writing a book*.
> Writing stream-of-consciousness is a great way to write in class where you are trying to get your legs, but when it comes to real marketable work, you need to do your homework before starting a project that's gonna be >100,000 words otherwise you will write yourself into a corner.  I know because I've done it multiple times. I have written books willy-nilly, then had to fix them, and it was sheer drudgery.  After killing a few patients that way I learned that it is better to plan the story in advance, and do doublebacks every 100 pages or so.
> 
> Writing half-formed ideas is something best left to vanity press. A professional writer plans out their work.



...the exact thing you have been saying you never said is actually what you think - that planning is better. I'm not sure why you felt the need to go down the road of "I don't know why you think I was saying that” when it turns out you do have a strong bias toward one way over the other. It seems like needless evasion, but perhaps I am misunderstanding and in any case it is not relevant or interesting to dig into one another’s motives I’d say.

I actually agree with you largely I reckon - that for most people and most writing _some _planning is best. In any case I am not here to tell you what does or doesn't work for you. What I am here to tell you is supporting an position you wish to apply beyond yourself (that planning is better) using your own work as proof is likely not going to convince anybody. 

What I think what you should be doing before making any kind of generalist statement is seeing how it holds up on a large scale. So to drag this screaming back to the original point, I say whether planning is needed depends on what works for you and what you are doing and there is really no need to philosophize beyond that. 

What I suggest to new writers or those who struggle with the process of converting an idea into a novel is that it begins and ends with rigorous self-awareness. That is, know what works best for your personality, your body, your family life, whatever. Be honest about your educational level. It may be you are, like my Irish friend, who is a professional writer, able to write on a typewriter publishable content with little error and I personally have met several who are cut from that cloth (almost all of them ex-teachers, interestingly enough) in which case the Ralph Rotten school of thought just doesn't apply. For the rest of us, your advice is good. That is all I am saying.

Hope that helps.


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## Blackstone (Apr 8, 2018)

Also, Ralph, and I don’t mean to nitpick but it’s important: stream of consciousness is a whole different thing to pantsing. 

Even if we assume that SOC is not marketable (which is what you said and is untrue - ask Faulkner) just because somebody does not plan out in advance what they are doing does not render the piece therefore “stream of consciousness”.

Stream of consciousness is writing without filter in order to capture the voice of the mind unguarded. It is absolutely possible to write carefully and conventionally without pre-planning. I am doing it right now, or trying. One can pause at the end of sentences to form ideas. One can edit as they go and delete as needs be (thanks to word processors). It isn’t stream of consciousness just because it isn’t prior formation and decision. That is some “felgerkarb” (nice ref btw!)


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## tgmittens (Apr 8, 2018)

I experimented with planning a short novella, but I found myself drafting and redrafting into oblivion. I eventually tossed the lot of it out, and I'm not entirely sorry I did. Not to threadjack (if that term isn't common here: change the topic from OP's discussion), but does anyone have a suggestion on when enough is enough? I'm not expecting a magic number or anything, but is there something to look for when relevant edits turns into nitpicking?


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## JustRob (Apr 9, 2018)

I just jumped in and wrote a lengthy response to this thread, but then felt that my thoughts on the subject had taken a different tack as a result of writing it. Consequently I dumped it to draft and may never return to edit it. Perhaps I should have planned out my response instead ...

The primary purpose of writing is not publication but to assist our thoughts. Sometimes those thoughts turn out to be worth publishing, but that is a bonus. Each of us is our own alpha reader.


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## Jack of all trades (Apr 13, 2018)

He, there, OP. Just wondering how the work is progressing.


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## Pepys (Aug 9, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> He, there, OP. Just wondering how the work is progressing.



Thanks for asking JoAT, I finished (the first draft) yesterday evening!


A lifelong ambition finally accomplished on about the thirtieth attempt. 


84,000 words....just under 5 months from writing 'Chapter One' to writing 'The End'. 


It may not be any good, but I feel so pleased to have finally stuck it out to the finishing line!


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