# Do you read books on how to write?



## Steerpike (Oct 17, 2011)

I noticed another thread on favorite books on writing, and I wondered how many people here read these books. I did when I first started, before I had anything published. It seemed like a logical thing to do to learn something about the craft. What I noticed, though (and what I sometimes see in beginning writers I know), is that the books on writing start to become more of a distraction from doing something that will actually teach you more effectively - writing. I've been in writing groups with people who have probably read a dozen how-to books, and always seem to have the next one in hand. They're less productive as writers, though. It isn't necessarily the act of reading these books that seems to make them less productive - there is plenty of time for both reading and writing, after all. It seems to be more of a mindset. While they are reading these how-to books they seem to have placed themselves in a holding pattern, hoping to reach some vaguely-defined level of ability before actually doing much serious writing. At least, that's how it looks to me as an outside observer.

Writing books have their place, of course. But in my opinion, they are last on the list of things that will help new fiction writers. The more useful things include reading fiction (a lot), writing (a lot), and critiquing the work of other writers.

What do the rest of you think?


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## Sam (Oct 17, 2011)

I've never read a how-to book in my life, for any endeavour. I find I learn best through action. Most of those books are best used as paperweights, in any case. The only book you really need is Strunk and White's _The Elements of Style. _That, and a dictionary. Beyond that, everything you read contradicts something else you'll read by self-professed experts. The only thing you gain from that is getting bogged down in the minutiae of writing when there's no need for it. 

Concentrate on reading actual books. And writing. There is no better teacher.


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## Zootalaws (Oct 17, 2011)

I have never read such books before, but have recently acquired a couple. Stephen King's semi-autobiographical how-to, _On Writing_ and Dean Koontz's _How To Write Popular Fiction_.

I haven't read either 

I read - a lot. I have, at last count, 13,129 books, including around 250 woodworking technical and reference books, about 150 cooking books and 60-70 car/bike manuals - in electronic form. Then there are about 300-odd physical volumes (I travel light! We have been nomads for the last 12 years or so).

I have probably read 15% of the e-Books and every physical book, more than once... but... as Sam says, "Concentrate on reading actual books. And writing. There is no better teacher." - I have probably learned more in the last week about the techniques of writing than I have picked up in the last 45 years of reading. That isn't really true, of course, because I am the sum of every word I have ever read and would have subconsciously absorbed various styles and manner of writing.

What I have noticed is that since last week, I now am much more critical (not in a negative sense, in the sense of looking AT what I am reading, as well as absorbing the novel) of everything I am reading. Looking at the way sentences are constructed or phrases used and thinking 'that's a neat trick' or 'who edited this?' 

I made the mistake of leaving school at 15, to my eternal regret. What has 'saved' me is my love of books, instilled by my parents since before I could walk.

I don't know if I will ever have anything published - I feel I am so far behind the curve both educationally and from the standpoint of the technical aspects of writing, but I am going to have a great time trying.

Thanks be to people like you that make such forums as this available to people like me. You have my eternal gratitude!


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## Rob (Oct 17, 2011)

Steerpike said:


> Writing books have their place, of course. But in my opinion, they are last on the list of things that will help new fiction writers. The more useful things include reading fiction (a lot), writing (a lot), and critiquing the work of other writers.
> 
> What do the rest of you think?


Personally, I've learned more from how-to books, and in a much shorter period of time, than through any of the other methods you suggest (reading, writing, critiquing), though these methods have also been useful, used in conjunction with the how-to books. One hour spent with a decent how-to book brings far more understanding for me than an hour reading, or writing, or critiquing. So I wouldn't put them last on the list of things that will help new fiction writers at all.

But here's the thing. Some people don't like how-to books at all. And some people will argue that how-to book A is better than how-to book B, while someone else will argue the exact opposite. We all come at this learning-to-write business from different backgrounds, with different reading experiences, different reading preferences, different educational and cultural backgrounds, and different aptitudes. So I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all solution, and what works best for one person isn't guaranteed to work best for another. We should try whatever's out there and use what works best for us as individuals, listening to the advice of others but mindful of the fact that what worked for them may not work for us.


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## Anders Ämting (Oct 17, 2011)

I've read Stephen King's _On Writing, _but that's pretty much it. Though, I do listen to the Writing Excuses podcasts on a semi-regular basis, if that counts.


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## Bluesman (Oct 17, 2011)

I am reading Stephen Kings book "on writing" at the moment and i find it interesting that for the most part he suggest that like Sam reading reading and more reading is what you need to do. So far in the book he has come up with some good stuff and as a book he explains how he wrote some of his books. I get the impression though that you just need to get stuck in and learn your own way and style of writing. Most of all is that you enjoy what you do and write about what you know about ? 

To quote Sam
                        "Concentrate on reading actual books. And writing. There is no better teacher".


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## Gamer_2k4 (Oct 17, 2011)

Nope.  Those books are either filled with common sense or conflicting information.  I just write and let other people tell me what they think.  More often than not, they like it.


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## Olly Buckle (Oct 17, 2011)

> I've never read a how-to book in my life, for any endeavour. I find I learn best through action. Most of those books are best used as paperweights, in any case.


You are probably right Sam, but how can you tell if you have never read any? 
I pick up such books in second hand shops, mostly by about page four I am thinking "I could write something better than this" and turn out another article for the newsletter, however last weekend the Guardian put out a supplement which actually seemed worth reading, typically I have left it on the train.


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## Sam (Oct 17, 2011)

Good point, Olly. It's mostly to do with the fact that there's no such thing as 'How to Write a Best-seller'. If there was, there would be no need for this forum.


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## JosephB (Oct 17, 2011)

That's my ultimate goal: Write a best seller. And then write another book called, "How to Write a Best Seller," which will also probably be a best seller.


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## Foxee (Oct 17, 2011)

I used to get (and enjoyed reading) *Writer's Digest* and I might still if magazine subscriptions didn't tend to stack up in my house. I have a hard time throwing things out when they contain ideas and info (so, yes, now you know I have a cluttered house).

My parents gave me a copy of *Writing for the Soul* by Jerry B. Jenkins. It's a book that explains his writing background and his writing process in a way that invites you to use the method if you like it. In some ways it's more of a philosophy of writing than a 'how-to' and I am in the midst of re-reading it.

My aunt found *Some Writers Deserve to Starve *in a bargain bin for a buck and gave me a copy. I didn't expect much (hey, it landed in the bargain bin for a buck...Ironic yet the cold realities of life tell me anyone's book can land there) but it's got short pithy chapters that seem pretty plausible. Only time will tell me if all of it is true or not.

I picked up a Writer's Digest book called *Writing Clinic* (I think) at a library sale (probably paid a dime or something) and never really have read it. I should probably take a better look through it and see what there is to glean.

I tend to read anything regarding 'how to write' (or how to do anything else) with a degree of skepticism. 

On one hand there are a lot of ideas that if you can grasp them from a book like this they can keep you from having to re-invent the wheel. When I was starting into writing and didn't understand POV, someone on the writing forum I frequented at the time pointed me firmly to the bookstore. I went, I leafed through a *few books on POV*, I said 'Oooooh I see' a lot, and I learned how not to screw it up royally.

On the other hand, of course, you can find bad advice, too. It's probably best to take any advice and instruction you read and decide for yourself whether you think it'll work. Give it a try, experiment, and if you need to get rid of it, do it.

Books and how-to articles all have their place but if you don't move on from them and write something it's no good anyway.


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## Zootalaws (Oct 17, 2011)

Since this thread I have picked up a bunch  of how-to's and read one, Plotting Simplified. It's been of use. I also gave Ambrose Bierce's Write it Right a look over - some very helpful stuff there.

So maybe I will take a day off writing and spend that day reading and making notes


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## garza (Oct 18, 2011)

Sam W - Much of what you say fits my own ideas, except for Strunk and White. Everything that's in there a person should have learnt in first form, except their ideas on the inverted comma, with which I take exception. My supplement to the dictionary - in my case Oxford Concise - is Fowler. 

One how-to book I found quite useful in my bike riding days was Chilton's _Small Engine Repair_, along with, of course, Bob Pirsig's _Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance_, which contains ideas useful for maintaining anything.


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## runonwords (Oct 18, 2011)

I think my best personal improvement has come from reading fiction and writing... all the time. They are a perfect combination, like peanut butter and jelly.


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## Jon M (Oct 18, 2011)

I hesitate to call the books in my collection "How-to", because that is generally not their purpose. Many of them clarify concepts, such as point of view, that are not so easily understood by just reading your favorite fiction. For me, these instructional books acted as a guidepost. They give me things to look for when I read my favorite books and analyzed them. So, like Rob, I feel like I've learned more, and faster, with these resources than by simply reading. And that is important for me because, first of all, I don't read very fast, and second, having grown up around TVs and computers, I started late and did not begin reading for pleasure until around the same time as I started writing seriously.

There are good and bad writing-instructional books. I don't think it is fair to put, for example, _On Becoming A Novelist_, a thoughtful analysis of the craft, on the same level as something like _Writing Fiction for Dummies_. There are some genuinely good writing books out there.


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## Bloggsworth (Oct 19, 2011)

To borrow from one of the greats "These books should not be tossed aside lightly, they should be thrown with great force".


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## Bilston Blue (Oct 19, 2011)

A couple of years ago I bought "The Beginner's Guide To Writing A Novel". I'd wanted to get round to writing fiction, but it was something I'd never really convinced myself into doing. I'd never set a word of fiction on paper before, though had done much non-fiction. Reading the "beginner's guide" I found myself thinking "I know that" on coming across much of the advice, or even worse, thinking "that's pretty obvious." It didn't really teach me much at all.

The dictionary is a must. Always. For everyone. Writers or not. I am embarrassed not by people who can't spell, but for those who think it is unimportant and unnecessary

I plan to get round to reading King's "On Writing", though more as a fan of King than anything else.


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## Jon M (Oct 19, 2011)

Bilston Blue said:


> I plan to get round to reading King's "On Writing", though more as a fan of King than anything else.


I enjoyed the memoir / postscript "On Living" more than the advice he offers. The tips are all pretty basic, but still, I suppose it's always interesting to hear what someone like King has to say about the craft. That's part of it's allure, for me. I always like when an author I admire writes an essay on the craft. You get some insight into their creative process. I bought a collection of Raymond Carver's work recently, and in the back of the book was an essay he did titled, not surprisingly, "On Writing." Still, it was very enjoyable, and I learned a little something about his methods.


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## S1E9A8N5 (Oct 19, 2011)

Two of the best "how to" authors I've come across: *Jerry Cleaver* and *Larry Brooks*.


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## Zootalaws (Oct 19, 2011)

I've just finished Ben Bova's _The Craft of Writing Science Fiction That Sells_ and found it really useful.

He structures it with a set of guidelines, an example short story, then dissects the short story showing how the elements in the first chapter were used. He is an easy read and certainly his tips on the industry are well-founded. 

His advice from the standpoint of his years as an editor are insightful. Sci-Fi isn't (wasn't?) my bag and I hadn't really thought about selling anything, but I am experimenting using his guidelines... it's a lot of fun.

The other thing I read recently was a detailed description on the Manuscript Format. As someone completely new to this I found it very useful and have created a word template so everything I write starts off in the correct format for submission.

William Shunn : Proper Manuscript Format : Notes on Manuscript Formatting for Fiction Writers


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## Bluesman (Oct 20, 2011)

Bilston Blue said:


> A couple of years ago I bought "The Beginner's Guide To Writing A Novel". I'd wanted to get round to writing fiction, but it was something I'd never really convinced myself into doing. I'd never set a word of fiction on paper before, though had done much non-fiction. Reading the "beginner's guide" I found myself thinking "I know that" on coming across much of the advice, or even worse, thinking "that's pretty obvious." It didn't really teach me much at all.
> 
> The dictionary is a must. Always. For everyone. Writers or not. I am embarrassed not by people who can't spell, but for those who think it is unimportant and unnecessary
> 
> I plan to get round to reading King's "On Writing", though more as a fan of King than anything else.




Hi bilston If your a King fan you will love the book you are talking about not just for the info about writing but also he talks alot about his own books and how wrote them also the changes he made to the stories. I'm two thirds through it and find it a fascinating read. Oh and i see your a stone roses fan.


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## The Backward OX (Oct 21, 2011)

Sam and Bloggs are quite correct. This leaves the question, why do 'writing' forums exist? Perhaps they should all be renamed 'goofing-off forum' or something similar.


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## JosephB (Oct 21, 2011)

Other than the areas where work is posted for critique, I would agree. I think most discussion about writing is pretty useless, unless it's associated with examples. Otherwise, I like what Steinbeck had to say about it: 

"If there is a magic in story writing,               and I  am convinced  there is, no one has ever been able to reduce                it to a  recipe that can be passed from one person to another."


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## Rustgold (Oct 21, 2011)

Olly Buckle said:


> You are probably right Sam, but how can you tell if you have never read any?


I read some, and certain tips made my writing much worse.  Kinda a pain trying to undo the damage you've done to your own work.  Possibly the worst tip I'd ever read was to keep all sentences short.  Good if you're writing a resume, but a couple of wonderfully flowing sentences whiteouted the full-stop invasion off the page.


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## JosephB (Oct 21, 2011)

Really, people who read bad writing advice and accept it deserve any sort of set back they may result. It's not a problem for people who have any sort of writing talent. The worst thing that could happen is they waste a little time.

And I've seen time and again on writing forums people saying writing books can be harmful or a waste of time. What's funny is, I've also seen that the very same people who are critical of those books have no problem doling out the same sort of advice -- and they act like its something. 

If you want generic writing advice, probably the worst place to get it is writing forums. It can be had and had better in books or websites from people who have put a lot more thought into it and done a better job of presenting it -- maybe who have even had some writing success. Doesn't mean it's of much value -- but it's better than second hand or made up stuff you get on forums.

And that goes for all the people who answer everything with "there are no rules." I'm gulity of that one myself. As if anyone who can really write is going to have his writing career derailed because someone on forum told him not to use "ly" adverbs. Please.


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## Jon M (Oct 21, 2011)

You know it really depends on approaching these learning materials with the right mindset. It's absurd to turn to any writing book, or any book on any art, thinking that it will show you the clear and the true way. Because it won't. Creativity is a very wild, fluid, chaotic and sometimes contradictory place. The only thing you can hope for is a light to help you forward on your own journey. It is, still, primarily your own journey -- you have to write and experiment for yourself -- but to throw these resources aside completely because they all don't line up perfectly and were never meant to line up that way is also absurd. 

Like Joseph said, if you don't think critically about the advice you're receiving, if you let it wash over you like some new dogma and pretend everything's great because you've got the secrets firmly in hand, well you get whatever you have coming to you.

I just know that personally I feel like I have helped others, here and elsewhere, because of my reading of these kinds of books, and was in a place where I could help the authors identify mistakes in their own work. And it has of course helped keep me mindful in the creation of my own stories.


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## Zootalaws (Oct 23, 2011)

johnMG said:


> I bought a collection of Raymond Carver's work recently, and in the back of the book was an essay he did titled, not surprisingly, "On Writing." Still, it was very enjoyable, and I learned a little something about his methods.



Thanks for the prompt...  You can get it here: http://www.faculty.english.ttu.edu/rice/3360/On-Writing.pdf


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## Sam (Oct 23, 2011)

JosephB said:


> Really, people who read bad writing advice and accept it deserve any sort of set back they may result. It's not a problem for people who have any sort of writing talent. The worst thing that could happen is they waste a little time.
> 
> And I've seen time and again on writing forums people saying writing books can be harmful or a waste of time. What's funny is, I've also seen that the very same people who are critical of those books have no problem doling out the same sort of advice -- and they act like its something.
> 
> ...



Yes, because the best people to ask for advice on writing wouldn't be those who do it every day of the week. That would be crazy. 

Nobody said that anyone's writing career would be ended with bad advice, but when you start telling fledging writers to read books that contain some of the worst advice ever given, that can play on a writer's mind. And, for someone who believes that writer's block can cripple a writer's output and confidence, you seem to have a hard time accepting that bad advice can set you down a slippery slope that is not so easily rectified. 

So I'll reiterate what I've said on several occasions. Want to know how to write well or better? Read fiction. Lots of it. While you're at it, take those how-to manuals and use them to light the fire.


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## candid petunia (Oct 23, 2011)

Sam W said:


> Want to know how to write well or better? Read fiction. Lots of it.


My friend had once said, "If you want to know how _not _​to write a book, read Twilight."


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## Sam (Oct 23, 2011)

Yes, when I said "read fiction", what I instead meant was "read fiction with the notable exception of _Twilight_".


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## Zootalaws (Oct 23, 2011)

Sam W said:


> Yes, because the best people to ask for advice on writing wouldn't be those who do it every day of the week. That would be crazy.



By the same token, taking the advice of successful, long-published authors over people on a forum must be even better, right?

If, by your criteria, getting advice from amateurs that write every day is good, getting advice from the likes of King, Bova, Koontz and Bradbury must be even better, no?



> So I'll reiterate what I've said on several occasions. Want to know how to write well or better? Read fiction. Lots of it. While you're at it, take those how-to manuals and use them to light the fire.



And I will happily take your advice and put it alongside that of the professionals, which I have found to be really helpful, so far. Much more so than 'read books' - I already do that.


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## Rob (Oct 23, 2011)

Sam W said:


> So I'll reiterate what I've said on several occasions. Want to know how to write well or better? Read fiction. Lots of it. While you're at it, take those how-to manuals and use them to light the fire.


If that works for you, Sam, fine. It wouldn't work for me. I've found stuff in those how-to books that I have never understood just from reading, and reading plenty. Some of those how-to books provide specific reading material within them to support the guidance, too. It's certainly true that reading plenty should be on the menu, but for many, those how-to books are extremely useful.

Are there specific how-to books that you consider poor?


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## Sam (Oct 23, 2011)

Zootalaws said:


> By the same token, taking the advice of successful, long-published authors over people on a forum must be even better, right?
> 
> If, by your criteria, getting advice from amateurs that write every day is good, getting advice from the likes of King, Bova, Koontz and Bradbury must be even better, no?



It is of particular noteworthiness that the advice employed by King in _On Writing _is taken with little seriousness by the author himself. He says to avoid adverbs. His work is littered with them. He says to avoid passive writing. Likewise. Which is exactly the focal point of my argument. If you want to see for yourself that publishers care little about trivial matters such as adverbs and passive writing, my advice would be to open the nearest book to you right now. I sound like a broken record, because I've said this more times than I care to enumerate, but I guarantee you that you'll find an adverb in the first page, if not the first paragraph. 



> And I will happily take your advice and put it alongside that of the professionals, which I have found to be really helpful, so far. Much more so than 'read books' - I already do that.



You are welcome to do as you see fit, but I'll still call it how I see it.


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## JosephB (Oct 23, 2011)

Sam W said:


> Yes, because the best people to ask for advice on writing wouldn't be those who do it every day of the week. That would be crazy.
> 
> Nobody said that anyone's writing career would be ended with bad advice, but when you start telling fledging writers to read books that contain some of the worst advice ever given, that can play on a writer's mind. And, for someone who believes that writer's block can cripple a writer's output and confidence, you seem to have a hard time accepting that bad advice can set you down a slippery slope that is not so easily rectified.
> 
> So I'll reiterate what I've said on several occasions. Want to know how to write well or better? Read fiction. Lots of it. While you're at it, take those how-to manuals and use them to light the fire.



I’ve read a few writing books – skimmed a good many more – and never really got anything from them. So I’m not a proponent. However, I haven’t read them all, so I’m not going to presume to tell anyone that none of them are of any value. You, by your own admission have never read one -- I'm sorry, but that doesn’t exactly inspire my confidence in your opinion.

I’m betting that people who are inclined to read writing “how to” books are going to do it regardless of what you or I have to say about. If they do, and it somehow sends them “down a slippery slope” – it’s not my problem. I’m not out to save the world one writer at a time. And I’m not so enamored of my own opinion that think I can tell people outright to do or not do anything.

 As far as writer’s block goes,  what I have to say about it isn’t going enable or cripple anyone. If someone is that susceptible to suggestion, he’s got much bigger problems than writer’s block. Besides, we know that on at least two forums, you’re going to come along and do an excellent job convincing  people it doesn’t exist – so no harm done.


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## Sam (Oct 23, 2011)

JosephB said:


> I’ve read a few writing books – skimmed a good many more – and never really got anything from them. So I’m not a proponent. However, I haven’t read them all, so I’m not going to presume to tell anyone that none of them are of any value. You, by your own admission have never read one -- I'm sorry, but that doesn’t exactly inspire my confidence in your opinion.



I don't need to enter a sewer to know it stinks. By the same token, I don't need to read a collection of books which contradict each other.



> I’m betting that people who are inclined to read writing “how to” books are going to do it regardless of what you or I have to say about. If they do, and it somehow sends them “down a slippery slope” – it’s not my problem. I’m not out to save the world one writer at a time. And I’m not so enamored of my own opinion that think I can tell people outright to do or not do anything.



I apologise if I use my experience to try to help young writers steer away from the many pitfalls of writing, Joseph. What an egotist that makes me, that I want to offer my opinion on matters of writing. My word! Isn't that what writers are supposed to do? Help each other? Again, I apologise that I think my opinion might help someone.


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## boboratory (Oct 23, 2011)

I have not read any, but I do know people that have, and they have expressed that it was a benefit to them. But I would imagine it's just like anything else, when you find the one that is written in a style that you harmonize with, you can get more out of it. I typically seek out and talk to writer's whose style I like, and ask them to chat about. Sometimes I smack my head and go "why didn't I think of that" and sometimes I listen and acknowledge, but don't use.


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## Sam (Oct 23, 2011)

Rob said:


> If that works for you, Sam, fine. It wouldn't work for me. I've found stuff in those how-to books that I have never understood just from reading, and reading plenty. Some of those how-to books provide specific reading material within them to support the guidance, too. It's certainly true that reading plenty should be on the menu, but for many, those how-to books are extremely useful.
> 
> Are there specific how-to books that you consider poor?



_101 Tips on How To Write a Best-seller _would be a start. My problem with these how-to books is that they think writing can be condensed to a formula. The problem, in my opinion, with the writing market right now is that there's so much formulaic tripe out there. The last thing we need is another story about a vampire falling in love with a teenager. 

So, yes, I do think how-to manuals are rubbish. That's my opinion. I think it's wrong to introduce such things to a 14-year-old, but what the hell. I'm past the point of caring.


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## JosephB (Oct 23, 2011)

Sam W said:


> I apologise if I use my experience to try to help young writers steer away from the many pitfalls of writing, Joseph. What an egotist that makes me, that I want to offer my opinion on matters of writing. My word! Isn't that what writers are supposed to do? Help each other? Again, I apologise that I think my opinion might help someone.



It’s fine Sam – tell all the young writers to read and write a lot and not read “how to” books and that there are no rules etc. As long you’ve got it all covered, I can relax.


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## Baron (Oct 23, 2011)

I suggest that people keep to the topic and drop the personal comments.


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## Jon M (Oct 23, 2011)

Thanks, Zootalaws, for finding that Carver essay. I had no idea it was online. Here it is again, if anyone's interested in reading it:

link

(sucks about the ban)


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## Rob (Oct 24, 2011)

Sam W said:


> I don't need to enter a sewer to know it stinks. By the same token, I don't need to read a collection of books which contradict each other.


Your analogy is poor, Sam. Sewers are all essentially the same, so it's not unreasonable to suggest that you can know that they all stink without visiting them all. How-to books are not all essentially the same, so the analogy doesn't work.


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## Rob (Oct 24, 2011)

Sam W said:


> _101 Tips on How To Write a Best-seller _would be a start.


I haven't read it and couldn't find it.



Sam W said:


> My problem with these how-to books is that they think writing can be condensed to a formula. The problem, in my opinion, with the writing market right now is that there's so much formulaic tripe out there. The last thing we need is another story about a vampire falling in love with a teenager.


You seem to be mixing two different things here. I've never seen a how-to book that recommends writing a story about a vampire falling in love with a teenager. I haven't seen how-to books that suggest writing can be condensed to a formula. They generally offer practical guidance based on experience to help the reader understand some aspect(s) of writing fiction. At this point, I think your lack of familiarity with how-to books is weakening your argument. You just don't seem to be familiar enough with them to make a call. You're making broad unsupported statements.



Sam W said:


> So, yes, I do think how-to manuals are rubbish. That's my opinion. I think it's wrong to introduce such things to a 14-year-old, but what the hell. I'm past the point of caring.


No disrespect, Sam, but you're posting advice to 14-year-olds about how-to books with little knowledge of them. You ought to go read a few. You seem to equate them with sewers, as per your analogy, and it's a seriously flawed analogy.


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## Kyle R (Oct 24, 2011)

How-To books are useful for learning the mechanics of writing, such as how to properly form and punctuate a clause, a sentence, a paragraph, and so on.

After that, creativity begins to play a major role. But even in creativity there are basic story-telling principles that have been proven to work better than others.

For example, "the character arc". An evolution of a character from the beginning of a story, through to the end. A person who has never heard of this concept might very well have characters that remain stagnant throughout their entire story, with the author being completely oblivious to the problem.

Compare that to someone who has been introduced to this concept in a How-To book, and that person can sit down and ponder the impact of a character who learns and grows. And as such, this writer's story-telling ability has suddenly improved.

The skill itself still needs to be honed, but knowing the blueprint of a sword beforehand will likely yield better results in the creation of it than a person who has never seen a sword before in his life.

I've learned personally a great deal from the mention of "conflict and resolution" in how-to-books that discuss the various methods to go about approaching this plot-driving principle. Granted, some advice is worse than others, but the mere mention of the dynamic itself improved my writing, in my opinion. When I read about it, I thought, "genius!", and I went perusing through some novels that I liked to identify the dynamic in action.

Now I'm not saying I'm a great writer, but I do feel that I've learned many useful ideas and concepts from "how-to" books that I would otherwise have not even been aware of.

I agree with Sam to some extent, that much of it is a waste of time. But not all of it. It ultimately depends on where you are as a writer, and what it is you're looking for.


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## garza (Oct 24, 2011)

All the mechanics of writing should be mastered by the time a person finishes first form. From there on it's refinement of usage. 

As for the creative side, can that be taught? I've a lifetime's experience at writing non-fiction behind me, but also a lifetime's experience reading fiction of many sorts. Every creative writer I admire has a way of writing that's different from every other writer I admire. I've been a Faulkner fanatic since first reading 'The Bear' when at age 12. I've read all of Hemingway six or seven times, at least. I study Joyce, watching the magic unfold on the page. Each has his own way of telling a story. 

My conclusion is that the creative writer must find his own way, and I seriously doubt that Faulkner, Hemingway, Joyce, or any of the other greats ever read a book on how to write. I do suspect that all of them read a great many books by other creative writers and distilled from what they read the essential elements they, in turn, used to create their own ways of writing.


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## The Backward OX (Oct 24, 2011)

_Hear! Hear!_


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## JosephB (Oct 24, 2011)

garza said:


> All the mechanics of writing should be mastered by the time a person finishes first form. From there on it's refinement of usage.



A blanket statement that may not apply to everyone. Some people need instruction or some review of the basics. Not everyone has the same educational opportunities. Everyone isn’t a good student. Some people didn’t grow up in environments where grammar and writing skills were stressed as something important. What “should” happen isn’t necessarily  within someone’s control. That means some people might benefit from a review of the mechanics. Where they get it is up to them, but I’m sure there are books that could be of value to people who need that level of instruction. Unless you think it’s just too late and they shouldn’t bother trying to write.


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## garza (Oct 24, 2011)

If a person has been through a normal course of primary school study and  a year of high school - usually eight or nine years depending on  location and educational system - he should have mastered the mechanics  of his language. If he has not, then the best of the how-to books will be of no value, if indeed they ever are. 

An adult who has poor language skills because of inadequate education is a separate issue not related to the topic under discussion.


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## JosephB (Oct 24, 2011)

So what you’re saying is, if someone needs to review basic writing mechanics, for whatever reason, at whatever level -- there are absolutely no instructional texts that are of any value whatsoever. None. Is that right?


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## Rob (Oct 24, 2011)

garza said:


> If a person has been through a normal course of primary school study and  a year of high school - usually eight or nine years depending on  location and educational system - he should have mastered the mechanics  of his language. If he has not, then the best of the how-to books will be of no value, if indeed they ever are.


Let me settle that 'if indeed they ever are' for you. I've found them of value, and so have many like me.


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## garza (Oct 24, 2011)

Joe - There are hundreds, thousands, of useful texts, ancient and modern. They are used in schools worldwide every day. They are grammar manuals, usage manuals, and dictionaries, valuable for learning and for review. 

A person who needs to review or learn fresh the basics of language needs a good manual on grammar, not a text that purports to teach how to plot a novel or develop the main character in a short story. Texts for people who need to review the mechanics, or learn them from scratch, are plentiful for all levels from Infant One through high school in printed form and as etexts online. Indeed there are complete grammar courses available for free online that go from basic to advaned. 

But this thread is not about grammar lessons but about books that are supposed to teach how to write fiction to a person who already knows the language. You are trying to shift the focus of the discussion. If you want to start a thread about learning the basics, I can tell you of my adventures teaching English as a second language.

Out of curiosity, how many of the people who write these how-to books are best selling authors? I know there are some, such as Stephen King, but what percentage of how-to-do-it writers have ever done it? How did I manage to make a living for over half a century writing news stories and magazine articles without ever reading a book about how to write news stories and magazine articles? And don't tell me anyone can write a good news story. It's a learned skill that requires daily practise to get right.

No carpenter ever learned to drive a nail straight by reading a book about it. Would-be carpenters need to be shown how to hold a hammer, then they learn to drive a nail straight by bending a lot of nails. Would-be writers need to master the mechanics of the language, then spend a lot of time putting one word after another. There will be many bent sentences along the way, but that's okay. Each one is a lesson. 

Writers write, and would-be writers learn best how to write by writing.


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## Lord Darkstorm (Oct 24, 2011)

Hmm, I have a number of writing books.  Maybe some of us need some help understanding how to use the tools of writing to do the job we need of them.  Although, I would disagree that someone must learn all they are supposed to from school on grammar.  Leaving the merits, or lack of merits, we can give to the current public education system, you make assumptions that all of us when we were young and honestly didn't care about diagramming a sentence, are therefore unable to learn how later in life?  

I've learned quite a bit from the writing books I have read.  They have a lot of value to anyone wanting to learn, since they help teach us how to think about writing, along with reasons for and against some things that are done.


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## JosephB (Oct 24, 2011)

garza said:


> But this thread is not about grammar lessons but about books that are supposed to teach how to write fiction to a person who already knows the language. You are trying to shift the focus of the discussion.



 You’re the one who said, “All the mechanics of writing should be mastered by the time a person finishes first form. From there on it's refinement of usage.” You brought basic mechanics into the discussion. Not me.

 Otherwise, I've already said I'm not necessarily proponent of "how to" writing books. I just don't presume to dismiss all of them as having no value whatsoever. I haven't read them all, I can't look into the heads of the people who have -- and I can't do a before and after comparison of their writing. Anything I might say about them, other than the few I've looked at, is guesswork.

 And reading "how to" books doesn't necessarily preclude reading lots of fiction, nor is anyone claiming it's a substitute for hard work and practice or that reading them can somehow make up for a lack of talent. No one's gone any further than saying they have been of some value or help. You seem to be the one here making the definitive claims.

 I'm also doubting -- again, based on what I've read -- that many of these books say that there is any exact formula or method that will somehow allow people to write a masterpiece or bestseller. Of course, that would be silly.

 What I am seeing are people who feel fine about dismissing a whole category of books without having read any or even looked into it all that much -- and who apparently presume to know that the people who say they've gotten something from them must somehow be mistaken. Am I too far off? If you’re OK with all that – hey, whatever.


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## garza (Oct 24, 2011)

Lord Darkstorm - Please quote for me where I have said that people cannot learn grammar later in life. Please read the second paragraph in my last post. A 60-year-old who is ignorant of grammar and decides he wants to learn can find books in print and material online to take him from earliest primary level right through high school. I know that for a fact. I've helped people make up later in life what they missed in school.

But this thread is not about grammar books, but books that are supposed to teach how to write novels and short stories. Can the value of such books be proven? Would the time you spend studying such books not be better spent writing?


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## Rob (Oct 24, 2011)

garza said:


> Writers write, and would-be writers learn best how to write by writing.


Garza, you just seem to keep ignoring the fact that people are posting here and telling you clearly that they've found how-to books useful. It's like you're in denial, for some reason that's not clear. No-one is suggesting that aspiring writers shouldn't write, or that they shouldn't read, or that they won't learn plenty from doing both, but the fact is, and I use the word fact intentionally there because this is not simply stating an opinion, the fact is that some people do benefit from reading how-to books. I'm one of them. No poorly made analogy about carpentry will change that. No matter how many of the how-to authors have written best-sellers, it won't change that. Whatever happened during our school years, it won't change that. No matter whether Hemingway read a how-to book or not -- and let's face it, neither of us knows, but they certainly existed -- it won't change that. No matter what you personally think of how-to books, it won't change that. And you can keep ignoring it, but it still won't change it, okay? I've found how-to books useful, and so have many people I know.


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## nerot (Oct 24, 2011)

I have read three books on writing by best selling authors.  I learned something from each book that has been very helpful.  But in the end I learned the most by attempting to write myself.  Even more helpful is having what I have written looked at and commented on by others.


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## Sam (Oct 24, 2011)

Let me put it this way: I started writing in 1999, a few years after graduating from high school. I had no interest whatsoever in English; in fact I spent the majority of English classes either sleeping or finding ways to be as least productive as I possibly could. That all changed when I started serious reading just after high school. A friend introduced me to the works of Robert Ludlum and Tom Clancy, because I was a self-professed action lover. I spent the next two years devouring every thriller I could set my hands on. 

In '99 I got the urge to start a novel. To this day I can't explain why. It felt like something I needed to do. There is no point in lying. It was pathetic. One-dimensional characters, laden with clichés, and written like something a first-year high school student could put together. At the time I thought it was okay. When I finished it, I printed it and threw it in my bedroom closet. I started writing the next one. I did the same with it. After each novel I realised my writing was steadily improving. My command of grammar and syntax had greatly improved. After eight or nine, I believed the writing was good enough to seek publication. 

What's the point of all this, you ask. In my opinion, the way to become proficient at any task is repetition. I'll give you an example of how much that applies here. When I took my GCSE English exam in fifth year of high school, I got an F. Now, almost fifteen years later (and with a slew of novels written), I'm currently three-quarters of the way through a degree course in English. I could hardly write a good sentence then. Now, I'm a month-or-so away from being a published author. I have never read a how-to book on writing in my life. I improved through one thing and one thing alone: Constant reading and writing. 

That is not to say how-to books are not helpful. Judging from the replies here, many people have found them quite helpful. However, I still believe the best way to learn how to do something is by doing it. As Joe stated, you can't know how helpful they'll be for someone else. Point taken, and a very good one at that. By that same token, no how-to book can prepare you for writing a novel. Simply because writing a novel differs for every person. The how-to book can't foresee the problems you're going to have. You can read a slew of books which purport to prepare you for speaking in front of people, but the reality is that none of them can actually prepare you for the moment you step in front of hundreds of people. Only one thing can. Experience.


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## JosephB (Oct 24, 2011)

nerot said:


> Even more helpful is having what I have written looked at and commented on by others.



Yep. I agree with that. And rather than tell people how to write or how they should learn or improve in general terms -- and what books they should or shouldn't read -- that's how I prefer to do it. I can read something you've written and make suggestions -- for whatever they're worth -- and of course, you're free to take it on board or not.


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## garza (Oct 24, 2011)

Those who find them useful should use them. I've said that already. And I like my 'bent nails' analogy. Poorly made, perhaps, but I see it making a point. 

I don't know about Hemingway, but I do know about Faulkner. He was asked the very question once at Chapel Hill. 

We base our opinions on our personal experiences. When I started writing for the two local newspapers I didn't even know there were any books on writing besides Fowler's _Modern English Usage_, which is not a how-to book but a usage manual. I have continued to use Fowler through all the years and through successive editions. That and my Oxford _Concise_, along with John Ciardi's _How Does a Poem Mean?,_ are the only books on writing I own. I guess it's a wonder I've managed to pay the rent and buy the groceries all these years. I sold my first story in the Autumn of 1954 and forever gave up any idea of looking for a job.

I intended writing one post stating my objections, not to any specific book, but to the concept that such a subject could be condensed into a book, or many books. My comments touched some nerves, and I regret that.

Writing, any kind of writing, is too much a personal occupation. If I rewrite a Police situation report for the six o'clock news I'm putting some of myself into that story. I have taught classes for news writing, both newspaper and broadcast. Beyond basic ideas in formatting the learner must be allowed to go his own way and develop his own style of presenting a story. I've taught classes how to write a story using the inverted pyramid, then handed out a Police SitRep for them to use. If there are 20 students in the class I'll get back 20 stories, each one difterent but every one correct. There is a bit of the person, the writer, in each of the stories. 

I've never denied that some of the books are useful for some people. I do question whether they are the best use of a person's time.


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## ppsage (Oct 24, 2011)

I wouldn't call it a how-to book but James Wood's _How Fiction Works _(Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2008 ) is a very good analysis of the novel as an art form and of the devices authors use in writing them. As a critic, and I suppose as a novelist, though I haven't read him there, Woods is considered something of a traditionalist, eschewing for the most part any consideration of deconstructionalism or self-referenciality. He sticks pretty much to the basic aesthetic approach (he's the one who coined the term _hysterical realism.) _Despite this, for me at least, drawback, I would say there's every reason to believe that _HFW_ will (finally!) replace Forster as the standard work on the subject. I can't see how it would hurt anybody to read either of them, if they've got time to read anything, and I think any author would find stuff to think about, especially after they've got a few works written, but it's probably in the approach to the reading and enjoyment of fiction, that these books find greatest utility and are most interesting.


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## Lord Darkstorm (Oct 24, 2011)

If you pick up a how to book on tiling, will reading it make your a master at laying out, cutting and putting in a tile floor/wall? No.  Might it tell you some things that will keep you from having to redo it twenty times costing a lot more in time and materials?   Yes.

A how to book will NEVER provide the skill, only insights on how to use a particular tool.  Yes, you can take anything and if you work at it enough you will eventually learn how to do it right.  There are lots of things in writing I knew from the aspect of a reader, but not as a writer.  There are ways to craft a story that we can all get through reading other fiction, but until you have it explained in a way that makes those aspects make sense, you guess, and try, and maybe come to an understanding.  Mimicking what other writers have done is, even if done correctly, isn't the same as knowing why you are doing it and what the technique is.

Do you need the writing books to become published...no, but they can help minimize some of the trial and error of not really knowing what you are doing by providing some understanding of what goes on.  I wonder if any of you could learn to write software without some kind of how to book?  You probably could, but I'd hate to think how many years it would take to figure out how to do anything right.  Even with how to books there are a lot of bad programmers, and I bet a few months reading slush piles would show there are a lot of bad writers that could use the advice from a few how to books on writing.


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## garza (Oct 24, 2011)

There are those for whom such books are helpful. There are others for whom such books are a waste of time. I know what worked for me when I started learning to write, and I know what has worked for people I've helped to learn English then learn to write stories and poems in English.

Mimicking what other writers have done is a total waste of time. You don't read the works of other writers in order to imitate them. You read the works of other writers to open your mind to the endless possibilities of the language.


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## Lord Darkstorm (Oct 24, 2011)

> You read the works of other writers to open your mind to the endless possibilities of the language.



????  

Actually, I read for the story the words contain.   If the words, or language, alone were what we read for, then putting together a story wouldn't even be a concern.  I guess then we could all just do poetry maybe?  

I take it you figured this all out on your own?  No teachers or other writers giving you instruction on how to write well?  You sat in a black box with only other works of fiction to use as a reference?  If so, you are one of the few.  Be it teacher, fellow writer, or even a book that teaches the same form of things, we learn more and faster when we have someone, or something to learn from.  While you might not be saying it directly, you very much imply that books that teach skills related to writing are not worth the trouble over learning to do it the hard way.  I disagree.  I'd much rather shoot past the frustration of not having a clue to having someone hand it to me and say how things can work, and for which instances you might want to use whatever skill.  For around $12 I can get a good book to teach me something I didn't already know, usually by someone who has been doing it many years and is quite good at it themselves.  Since most of them can't sit down with me personally and teach me what I might like to know for that price, I find the book form a decent alternative.  Critiques are valuable, but only for a specific instance of what you are doing.  Understanding how the mechanics works provides a better base for writers to practice on than blindly going at it over and over again.

Books on writing help people, lots of people.  

Ok, I'm done.


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## garza (Oct 24, 2011)

One point you may have missed early on. I've only started learning to write fiction in the past year or so. I'm a retired journalist. It was my maternal grandfather got me interested in writing. It was mostly a game we played at first. We had Limerick competitions and story telling contests at the dinner table. He died when I was ten, leaving me to carry on as best I could. By the time I was 12 I knew I wanted to be a writer. I had discovered Faulkner and Joyce along with more juvenile literature from such writers as Jack London and Albert Payson Terhunne. I began to write more, comparing the sound of what I wrote with the sound of what others wrote and gradually began to enjoy going back and reading my own writing. I think that's a major turning point for any writer. If you can come back a week later and say, 'hey, this is pretty good', then I believe you are on your way.

At 14 I began writing for two local newspapers, a daily and a weekly. They began paying me for what I took in so I've never had a job.I never made any serious effort at writing fiction until last year. Since then I've written a few short stories, a lot of flash fiction, and have started a novel. I want to have a piece of long fiction published before I go to cry among the rain clouds, but if I don't, well, that's life.

There are many books that help a person learn the skills needed to be a writer. At the top of the list is a good dictionary. Just before my grandfather died I was rummaging through a neighbour's rubbish heap and came across an _Oxford Concise Dictionary of the English Language_ and a copy of _Fowler's Modern English Usage_. Every writer needs a good dictionary and a good usage manual. I still rely on Oxford's _Concise_ and on Fowler, though of course I use the new editions as they are released. An advanced grammar manual is also good to have, though today I rely on the Internet to answer questions about obscure points of grammar that may have slipped my mind. As for 'this is how you write' books, I can't see their value. A person should master the mechanics of the language, read all sorts of books, magazines, and newspapers, all of which are now available, some free, some at a cost, on the Internet, and write every day. _Every day_. There is no substitute for writing as a way of learning to write.  

I didn't mean to write a novel here. And the bad news is I've cut out half of what I wrote.


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## Sam (Oct 24, 2011)

Lord Darkstorm said:


> ????
> 
> Actually, I read for the story the words contain.   If the words, or language, alone were what we read for, then putting together a story wouldn't even be a concern.  I guess then we could all just do poetry maybe?
> 
> ...



You should read my earlier post. I got an F in high school English. I cared nothing for the language until I started writing in '99. I have never read a how-to book in my life. I'm about to become a published novelist. 

Just as I am sure there are those who have found benefit from reading how-to books, I am equally as sure there are authors who've never picked up such a book in their lifetime. To say they are in the few is an unsupported hypothesis. What proof have you to back up this claim? 

I appreciate the value these how-to guides have for some people. However, to postulate that they are an essential aspect of becoming a good writer, let alone a published one, is pushing the envelope a little bit. In my humble opinion. Garza has made a living from writing, yet he has never used one. I have written twelve novels and have not used one. Ipso facto, they may be valuable but they are by no means essential. 

However, I will no longer speak ill of them because I have never read any of them.


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## Kyle R (Oct 24, 2011)

I feel it's safe to say there are two schools of thought in this thread.

On the one hand, you have those who defend "how to" books as a valuable tool to condense the learning process by garnering insights from more experienced writers who may have decades of professional writing under their belts.

On the other hand you have the "learn by doing" proponents, who, along with my ever-favorite-to-quote-author Mr. Ray Bradbury, advise the only thing you need to do is read, and write, and read and write some more.

It's interesting to me that many of the Heavyweights of fiction belong to the "learn by doing" school of thought. Though, one could argue that this is a result of a time where "how to" books were more of a rarity than they are now. In that line of thought, due to the advancement of time alone, is it not logical to conclude that study of the prose, form, and structure of those same literary giants can yield insights and techniques that can be identified, explained, and taught to aspiring writers?

To throw some kindle on the fire here, I just returned from the bookstore. Guess what I bought? A "how to" book on writing, most specifically, a book on the analysis of Plot and Structure in fiction writing.

This is a subject I am ever fascinated with, and I am constantly on the hunt for new perspectives. The reason is, for me, that the _craft _of writing, the mechanics of it, is something easily learned, in comparison to the _art _of writing, a more abstract dynamic that, while elusive, is something I feel can also be taught.

The teaching of it relies on an author's ability to identify and explain the hallmarks of successful, well-written fiction. These are elements that tend to draw attention to themselves through various works. One such element, for example, is the Three-Act Structure. Seen time and again in fiction writing, the T.A.S. has been shown to be so effective that the term itself is practically thrown around as if it were common-knowledge.

I only discovered the T.A.S. within the past year. I had been aware of it, instinctively, subconsciously, from reading stories and from other forms of experiences, but having it detailed and explained opened my eyes to new horizons of possibility. Now I had a roadmap to follow, instead of driving around aimlessly with no clue of where I was going.

Sam and Garza, I feel you are an endangered species. That's not to say your opinions are primitive and obsolete, but that your methods belong to a time where writers such as yourselves truly were writers. Nowdays, in the ever-accelerating world of high-speed internet connections and special-effects-laden Hollywood blockbusters with strong explosions and weak stories, the emphasis seems to be on "getting there faster".

People don't want to spend years writing away. We want someone to show us the shortcuts. Ironically so, there was a "how to" book titled something along the lines of "The Best Shortcuts to writing a Novel". I knew it would be garbage, but still, I reached out and picked it up, just out of curiosity, to see what the author could possibly be saying. The advice was so bad that I honestly don't even remember it, even though it was only an hour ago that I read it. All I remember is I grimaced and put it back down.

So, what is my stance on all of this? I'm not sure. I find merits in both arguments. But I will say that I'll likely be spending some time later this evening reading my "how to" book and taking notes, seeing what I disagree with, and what I find useful. Maybe my time would be better spent writing, indeed. Maybe not. : )


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## garza (Oct 24, 2011)

KyleColorado - At 71 I'm already an endangered species. But I have to agree with much of what you say. As an old wire service hack I continue to read what's posted on sites such as AP and Reuters. I shouldn't, because one day I'm going to become so angry over the sloppy writing that I'll have that second stroke the doctor has warned me about. 

To learn to write the way I did takes time and effort. I started as a teen-ager writing for local newspapers. You don't get rich very fast stringing for small town papers, but you learn the craft of writing. You learn the best way of putting one word after another to tell a story. No one today wants to go down that road. They all want the shortcut, the easy way, and if the end result is sloppy writing, so what? No one appears to care today if a story on the AP wire has grammatical errors. What does it matter? That's the non-fiction side of the page, but the fiction side is equally infected. The careful craftsmanship I strove to master as a 14-year-old is of little value in today's world.


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## The Backward OX (Oct 24, 2011)

garza said:


> All the mechanics of writing should be mastered by the time a person finishes first form.





garza said:


> But this thread is not about grammar lessons but about books that are supposed to teach how to write fiction to a person who already knows the language. You are trying to shift the focus of the discussion.





JosephB said:


> You’re the one who said, “All the mechanics of writing should be mastered by the time a person finishes first form. From there on it's refinement of usage.” You brought basic mechanics into the discussion. Not me.



In my humble opinion, you pair are quite possibly using the same word "mechanics" in two very different ways. And while ever misunderstandings of this nature prevail, threads like this will go on ad infinitum or in some cases ad nauseum. The internet is useless as a communication medium.


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## Lord Darkstorm (Oct 25, 2011)

> I began to write more, comparing the sound of what I wrote with the  sound of what others wrote and gradually began to enjoy going back and  reading my own writing.


This I completely understand.  Sound, the sound of the words.  That I will agree isn't found in a writing book.  Grammar book to a degree, but being able to put together a sentence is really a basic skill we should all have, but sadly, not enough people do.  My first step in writing was improving my grammar, which still is far from perfect, but it does have a better flow to the words than before.  I did get the advice to read my words out loud by one of those writing books.  Best advice I've ever gotten from one, and it is very effective every time I follow it myself.  


Most good writing books aren't as helpful until the grammar come up to an acceptable level that the techniques they teach can be used properly.  Poorly written sentences are a death knell on any story no matter how well the concepts are understood.  KyleColorado I think hit the point well.


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## Rob (Oct 25, 2011)

garza said:


> Mimicking what other writers have done is a total waste of time. You don't read the works of other writers in order to imitate them. You read the works of other writers to open your mind to the endless possibilities of the language.


Garza, please stop writing 'you' and write 'I' instead. You're transposing your own experience onto other people, and it's completely unsound. A lot of people have read and mimicked what others have done, and found benefit in doing so on the path to developing their own voice and style. Speak from your own experience, but don't assume it's the same for everyone, okay?



garza said:


> One point you may have missed early on. I've only started learning to write fiction in the past year or so.


Jesus Christ.


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## The Backward OX (Oct 25, 2011)

When I say things like that I get my posts deleted.


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## theorphan (Oct 25, 2011)

I have read part of Page By Page but I have trouble reading books like how to's.  It is something I keep meaning to come back to.


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## JosephB (Oct 25, 2011)

KyleColorado said:


> People don't want to spend years writing away. We want someone to show us the shortcuts.



To a degree, it makes sense to guess that the prevailing need for instant gratification would apply to writing. It does to just about everything else. But I think you might be overstating things. I know several writers, both aspiring and a few who are published to whom this doesn't apply. Myself included. I don't think it's a good idea to wield that "we" so freely.

 When it comes to writing, I think that there are people who look for shortcuts and those that recognize it takes hard work to get anywhere. The people who want to take shortcuts will either give up or come around to seeing that there is no easy way. I'm betting it's always been like that.

 And from what I've seen, "how to" books are a phase for most people -- and they don't necessarily view them as short cuts or a substitute for work. Just as means to learn. So the need to grab at these books often comes from initial enthusiasm as opposed to laziness or a conscious desire to cut corners. People often just view them as part of the process -- and I think that's natural.

But I tend to think writers with any sort of talent and genuine desire will eventually recognize that at best the books are an ingredient in a formula that includes a lot of hard work and practice. And certainly, in my defense of them, I've never suggested anything else.


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## JosephB (Oct 25, 2011)

The Backward OX said:


> In my humble opinion, you pair are quite possibly using the same word "mechanics" in two very different ways. And while ever misunderstandings of this nature prevail, threads like this will go on ad infinitum or in some cases ad nauseum. The internet is useless as a communication medium.



Well to me, mechanics is a somewhat broad term that includes grammar, spelling and basic compositional skills -- knowing how to put words together in a generally accepted way so they make sense. I would doubt that Garza's definition would vary all that much.

But there was no misunderstand between us here about that, and from what I see, that aspect of the conversation didn't go on ad infinitum. We were talking about when and how mechanics should or can be learned. "In my humble opinion," the misunderstanding is all yours. Don't blame the internet for your shortcomings.


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## Kyle R (Oct 25, 2011)

JosephB said:


> To a degree, it makes sense to guess that the prevailing need for instant gratification would apply to writing. It does to just about everything else. But I think you might be overstating things. I know several writers, both aspiring and a few who are published to whom this doesn't apply. Myself included. I don't think it's a good idea to wield that "we" so freely.
> 
> When it comes to writing, I think that there are people who look for shortcuts and those that recognize it takes hard work to get anywhere. The people who want to take shortcuts will either give up or come around to seeing that there is no easy way. I'm betting it's always been like that.
> 
> ...



Well said. I'll agree with that.


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## garza (Oct 25, 2011)

xO - By mechanics I mean grammar, punctuation, and usage. A person should know the accepted rules of grammar and punctuation, and should know how every word in his own vocabulary should be used. 

In teaching English as a second language I've always stressed that it's not how many words you know, but knowing how to properly use the ones you do know. This is why I discourage the use of the thesaurus. It leads to misuse of words. 

A writer should be able to parse every sentence, understanding how and why every word is used and understanding the grammatical relationships within the sentence. That's mechanics, and it is essential for writing of any sort, fiction or non-fiction.

Lord Darkstorm - Again I must credit my grandfather with the idea of reading out loud to decide whether a sentence flows well and makes sense. When I was very young, in the U-10 league, we played story and Limerick games at the dinner table. My grandfather might say something like, 'Tell me about your friend Seamus and his little pug dog'. That I had no friend named Seamus with a pug dog was no excuse. A story was required, and it needed to be built up with the right words put together in grammatically correct sentences that rang true to the ear. Years later this made writing for radio and television easier for me. 

My guess is the how-to books are only useful for those with a good command of the language. What's the point of learning how to plot a story if a person can't write a proper sentence?

Rob - Please excuse the classroom habit of using 'you' in that context. I use it in the sense of the old saying, 'you don't go to fish monger to buy corn'. You can substitute 'we should not' if you like.

You act surprised that I'm a beginning fiction writer. You are probably the last person here to find that out. Should not the fact that I've lived for over half a century on my writing count for something? Fiction or non-fiction, good writing is good writing, and bad writing is bad writing. 

I have written fiction in the past, but it has never been an important part of my career (read that as 'I never made much money from fiction). There are those, of course, who will say the autobiographies I've ghost-written for televangelists and politicians were fiction, but that's not for me to decide. I write what they pay me to write, and yes, I know the word you are thinking of.

There are many how-to books on writing non-fiction. The ones I've seen are of little value. A person who starts stringing for a local newspaper or broadcast station and gets immediate feedback from an experienced editor will learn quickly the way to write a good story, or will even more quickly go back to asking, 'you want fries with that?'.

Anyroad, this horse shows distinct signs of declining health. Best thing we leave the poor creature alone.


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## slythgeek (Oct 25, 2011)

I started the other thread.  I like books on writing, but I find them to be dicey.  Some are excellent and inspire me to go and fix my own work.  Others make me scoff at their overbearing pretension or plain hypocrisy.  I guess I sort of have to take it with a grain of salt but not so much salt that there was no point in reading the book to begin with.


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## Lord Darkstorm (Oct 25, 2011)

I tend to look at what the book is promising.  If it says it will help me with structure, then it might have some value.  If it promises that once done I'll be on the nyt's best seller list...well, I if it were true then everyone would be on the best seller list.  I check amazon, read the reviews, usually the bad ones.  Is there a real problem, or just some personal issue with something.  Even the writing books that have little for me personally, aren't bad, just not something I need for my writing.  

Reviews are a great thing, assuming a book has them.


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## Cran (Oct 25, 2011)

Not in general terms, but I contemplated writing one because it looked like an easier dodge than selling snake oil.

I have a Fowler's which I occasionally use as a reference, a couple of subject-specific dictionaries (I mostly use the Bates & Jackson Dictionary of Geological Terms), a general Webster's - I lost custody of the Oxford in the divorce - and a couple of subject-specific how-tos related to aspects of technical writing and academic referencing*; finally, I have a couple of thesauri which I don't use for synonyms but to help generate weird names for stories. I tend to use online resources for specific questions these days.

*_Which I can't find on my bookshelf - so, they are either packed away in a cupboard, or have gone AWOL during one of the many house moves._


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## garza (Oct 25, 2011)

Cran - Sorry to hear about your Oxford. That's bad. My condolences.


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## Cran (Oct 25, 2011)

thank you, *garza *- yes, it's sad; I can't even get visiting rights (we live in different states).


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## Jon M (Oct 25, 2011)

KyleColorado said:


> I feel it's safe to say there are two schools of thought in this thread.
> 
> On the one hand, you have those who defend "how to" books as a valuable  tool to condense the learning process by garnering insights from more  experienced writers who may have decades of professional writing under  their belts.
> 
> On the other hand you have the "learn by doing" proponents, who, along  with my ever-favorite-to-quote-author Mr. Ray Bradbury, advise the only  thing you need to do is read, and write, and read and write some more.


See, it's never been an either/or scenario for me. I still learn by doing. I write every day when I'm working on a project. I put all that abstract 'how-to' knowledge to use, or try to. And on the side I'll bounce between some of these writing instructional books and regular, great fiction. 

None of this has to be mutually exclusive. But it sure seems that many feel that way in this thread. I don't know.

In a way it's kind of like guitarist referencing a chord book. He wants to know how to play a I-V-III, so he looks it up and maybe he stumbles onto his new favorite chord progression. Then he sets the book aside and gets back to the business of making personal, emotive art.


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## garza (Oct 25, 2011)

Be sure to read every line of all of my posts to see if I ever say the use or non-use of how-to writing books is mutually exclusive. I don't use them. I've never used them. The closest I come to such a book is Fowler's, and that's a usage book, not a how-to book. But as I have said about three times in this thread, if some people find them useful, they should use them.


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## philistine (Jan 9, 2012)

Much like books on how to paint or draw, books on how to write are barely worth their weight in muck. I suppose they can only offer you help if your understanding of writing is elementary, at best. 

Books on the world of writing, however, could prove (and have, in my experience) immensely useful. _The Writers and Artists Yearbook_, for example.


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## Lord Darkstorm (Jan 9, 2012)

So, if there is no value in hearing about writing from someone who has been successful at it, what's the purpose of joining a writing site with far more people who have yet to be successful? Or maybe anyone who doesn't natively understand all aspects of writing inherently shouldn't bother since they might need help understanding some of the concepts that might not be preexisting knowledge?  Maybe it's just those of us who haven't bothered to struggle through figuring it all out on our own and are happy to accept the words of wisdom given by someone we may have actually read their books and decided they actually might know something about how to write?  


If we leave out the droves of "how to write a best seller overnight" and other garbage that tends to be for the express purpose of finding a sucker, have you ever read a book that is useful?  Like one on characters, description, or structuring a story?  If not, how can you discount them as worthless?  I find a book on writing probably less valuable since they are only good for the short time frame the world of publishing lives in that books moment.  Publishing changes, and publishers do as well, but how to write a story doesn't change nearly as much.  But I don't discount them completely, they have some value.

If you have never read a book on writing that isn't in the get rich quick category, I wish you would stop judging it.  It's as bad as someone telling me dungeons and dragons was evil because there were demons in it.  I even had someone say the same of Harry Potter...of course, they never READ any book before creating this opinion, just made an external assumption and declared it true.


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## Rustgold (Jan 9, 2012)

Well, that's 2 minutes I'm not getting back.


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## shadowwalker (Jan 9, 2012)

Just dropping in here (haven't read the whole thread - apologies) but I look at how-to-write books as references only. In other words, I haven't read most from cover to cover - but if I'm unsure of something, I have them to look it up, to see how others think it should be done, or how it has been done. And then I decide what I want to do. I don't treat any of them as the Bible of Writing. They're there to help me figure it out, not to follow step-by-step.

JMO


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## Robdemanc (Jan 10, 2012)

I have a few of these books, one "how to" book and two written by editors explaining why they reject manuscripts.  I have found them useful in focusing me on how to complete a full length novel.  But these books aren't meant to teach someone to write, which only practice can do, they are meant as a guide for writers who want to be published.


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## Kyle R (Jan 10, 2012)

I have to say,

_Techniques of the Selling Writer - by Dwight Swain_

is, in my opinion, the best "how to write (fiction)" book out there. It's no wonder that so many other "how to" books refer to it in their own passages, and why creative writing classes and MFA programs use Swain's terminology and concepts when instructing their students.

If you're looking for a good how to book on writing fiction, hunt that one down and read it cover to cover.


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## namesake (Feb 28, 2012)

I can't single out the best one but here are some:
the art of dramatic writing Lajos Erjos
creating characters Laurie Schnebly
writing for emotional impact karl iglesis


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