# Serious Question About Fantasy



## T.S.Bowman (Mar 24, 2014)

I find myself facing a bit of a conundrum.

Some, if not most, of you know by now that I am a Fantasy writer. 

When I started writing my WIP, I want6ed it to be a Fantasy, but I didn't want it to be "typical". I use that word in this way...I didn't want my main character, and in turn, the readers, to run into the same old trolls or ogres or orcs. I wanted to give my best shot at creating something new.

Now though, after having done a little reading, I find myself wondering if it was actually a good idea. 

In  my reading I have come under the impression that Fantasy readers are more or less "set in their ways" and are pretty reluctant to accept something new in the genre. 

While I still wish to be different in the genre, perhaps give it a much needed kick, or at least a tug on the ear, I want my book to be marketable.  

So do I stick with what I'm already doing. Or do I go back and change a couple of the creatures I made up into more the more recognized/accepted standards?


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## InstituteMan (Mar 24, 2014)

Stick with what you are doing.

First of all, you have already done much of it.

Second of all, chasing after what you think readers want is a fool's errand. You are better off writing what feels right to you.

Third of all, unless I am mistaken, this project isn't your retirement plan. In other words, if it works out, great, but if not, no big deal from a food on the table point of view. If it IS you retirement plan, then you probably need to rethink that.

Fourth of all, we all have to work for other people enough in life. Write for yourself, not some imaginary boss. If you get an editor or a publisher someday, fine, write along the lines of what they want, but for now enjoy the creative freedom.

Of course, I know nothing, and I am not even Jon Snow.


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## -AT (Mar 24, 2014)

(In my mind) fantasy is just that: A fantasy. A world you created and populated with whatever you wanted. 

It's your world. Your "fantasy". If you start putting things in it that you don't want, then it's no longer your fantasy story and it becomes tainted. Just make sure you have some fireballs, and you're good to go.


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## T.S.Bowman (Mar 24, 2014)

Well..it's not that necessarily that I wouldn't "want" the typical creatures there. I could make them work perfectly well. 

I just found it more interesting to try to come up with my own. 

@Institute Man - While it's true that the book isn't my "retirement plan", I would still like it to have a reasonable shot at being published. LOL


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## Gamer_2k4 (Mar 24, 2014)

The best authors bring the readers into their world on THEIR terms.  The poorer ones rely on readers picking up their book because it reminds them of something else.

If your book is worth publishing, it's worth publishing in its own merits, not the merits of other authors.  Keep doing what you're doing.


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## J Anfinson (Mar 24, 2014)

While there are many hardcore fans of Tolkien type creatures, I feel as if there's plenty of that kind of material out there already. I'd love to see people shy away from that and use their imaginations to create a different kind of world than that. I think even high fantasy could be so much more if people would be willing to forego the rules.


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## InstituteMan (Mar 24, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> Well..it's not that necessarily that I wouldn't "want" the typical creatures there. I could make them work perfectly well.
> 
> I just found it more interesting to try to come up with my own.
> 
> @Institute Man - While it's true that the book isn't my "retirement plan", I would still like it to have a reasonable shot at being published. LOL



I understand what you are saying about wanting the best shot possible at traditional publication, but I am totally and utterly convinced that being true to your own vision gives you the best chance. Ersatz stories simply seem like ersatz stories, and my own uniformed opinion is that those are easy to come by, so there is no reason to think that your work will stand out if you compete in that space. Do your own thing. It might not work, but it maximizes your chances.


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## A_Jones (Mar 24, 2014)

Writing is like acting, you should always do everything with forethought. Instinct will drive you, but decision is where it is act.   If you decide to make a difference, you have to do it.  You want to change things up, then you should and make every decision count.  

You want your book out there because you want it to be read.  If you are doing it for the money you are doing it for the wrong reasons.  So, when your book is read, do you want to remember yourself as the person who made money writing a book just like any other, or do you want to remember yourself as the person who wrote a book that not a lot of people read, but was one of a kind. 

Even if one person reads your work and takes something from it, it is good.  

Good luck, I am rooting for you.  I hope to read your work and be more help to you soon.


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## Moxis (Mar 24, 2014)

Well in my opinion whether its traditional or completely original it all depends on how its written. I was having this problem as well with my sieres I'm writing. I have also just finished a book called Web of the Spider and it had some vary traditional ideas in it and even ones that forcefully went against a lot of mainstream beliefs as far as fantasy is concerned and I loved it for that. So in essence do what you think is best for your story and there will be readers that will love it and everything in it for what it is, and there will be those that simply don't, but that's not bad because you just can't please everyone. Hope this helps.


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## Tettsuo (Mar 24, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> I find myself facing a bit of a conundrum.
> 
> Some, if not most, of you know by now that I am a Fantasy writer.
> 
> ...



The bolded is not true.  Many of the greatest fantasy novels change the established concepts and rules about many things.

Write what's right for you.  Trying to please the market will only leave you with an empty heart and a dead book.


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## Morkonan (Mar 25, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> ....So do I stick with what I'm already doing. Or do I go back and change a couple of the creatures I made up into more the more recognized/accepted standards?



No fantasy Reader wants to read about "orcs" that the author calls "Shrags" or "elves" that the author calls "Finks." Seriously... I'm serious - NO FANTASY READER WANTS TO READ THAT! 

Now, knowing that, can you tell a good story with orcs and elveseses and all the other things that go "bump" in the night? Can you throw around fairies and trolls with abandon and still manage to entice the typical fantasy Reader? If you can, that's great. Just keep doing it without a bit of guilt at all - You will be justified. However, if you can't, then it's just adding insult to injury. Fantasy Readers will accept "orcs" and "goblins" and "trolls" and such as long as the story is good. If it isn't, they'll pan you for a bad story within a tired setting.

I would suggest that any creatures you have that serve a similar purpose to recognizable fantasy species, like orcs and such, be as far removed from them in their behavior, physique and social interactions as possible. Don't just rename "orcs" and throw them in the story - Make them truly different. Turn them into large insects, werewolves, land-sharks, flightless-demon-bird-amoebas... something, anything other than a renamed "orc." Do the same with the rest.

It's also important that while you can have unique species filling a similar "role" in a fantasy story as standard and generic "orcs" (or whatever), you should also take some measures to make them different. So, instead of just being cannon-fodder for the Evil Wizard Antagonist, they're lead by a strong leader and that leader negotiates with the Evil Wizard Antagonist. Instead of being bloodthirsty savages, they're innovative and honorable warriors. Instead of being burly and wart-covered hairy nightmares, they're graceful vegetarians... Well, strike the last bit. Or... maybe don't? Maybe you can construct an army for the Evil Wizard Antagonist that is primarily made up of honorable vegetarian warrior aesthetes?  Hey, it's better than just plain ol' "orcs." Well, unless you have a better story that really needs "orcs" in it. (Always vote in favor of the needs of the story.)


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## T.S.Bowman (Mar 25, 2014)

Well...when I decided to create my own creatures, I also decided to try to _create _them. I would not be able to look myself in the eye if I were to take good ole orcs and goblins and simply rename them. I won't be doing it with all of the creatures in my novel. I will still have a couple of creatures from "traditional" Fantasy in there. Sometimes only in a cameo style appearance, but some will be there. The main ones my MC will have to deal with, however, are going to be my own creations. I don't know if they will work well or not. I guess I'll find out when I hit the beta reading process. 

I do know that I need to look up a list of creatures found in Fantasy. Maybe a D&D type list. Then I may be able to find a couple of the lesser used critters and bring them in to suit my nefarious purposes.


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## Greimour (Mar 25, 2014)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> The best authors bring the readers into their world on THEIR terms.  The poorer ones rely on readers picking up their book because it reminds them of something else.
> 
> If your book is worth publishing, it's worth publishing in its own merits, not the merits of other authors.  Keep doing what you're doing.




I agree with this... and I would like to point out a few things.

Elves were not always tall bow wielding magical creatures linked with nature, as painted by Tolkien. Harry Potter used Elves but not in the way Tolkien did... and Elves are not limited to those 2 versions. 

Urgals by Chritopher Poulini ... they were never used before as far as I am aware and they were awesome. Sadly they are incredibly similar to my Talin.  (I used to name them Knull, but for some reason I changed my mind at some point. Did Poulini possibly have a breed known as Knull or something? I know his Ram version of Urgal cut an awfully close description with my Talin.)

J.K. Rowling had the Acromantula - Aragog...  truly a genius construction in my opinion. "acro," meaning "extremity of the body," whilst simultaneously (perhaps coincidentally) reminding the mind of Arachnophobia and "antula" comes from the end of the word "tarantula,"  another type of spider... Acromantula then, upon the first reading of the word, instantly paints the image of "scary spider" ... certainly beats my "Malanchuit" > [Malan-kwee] which is my own version of giant  spider, but I had created my malanchuit long before I even heard of harry potter... Though admittedly, I have contemplated giving mine speech many times since I watched Aragog speak on the big screen. And also Bilbo Baggins listening to the shadow spiders talking when he had the ring on. Very cool.

I have many other creatures too, from walking statues that have their own species name, to spectral spirits that are drawn toward camp fires... even a six legged blind horse exists within my creations. Whether or not I will ever use them is to be seen, but I will not give up the quest to introduce a new creature to the world of myth and legend and fantasy fiction. Dragons? Elves? Dwarves? Vikings? Valkyrie? Valhalla? I want to add a creature to that list! ^_^

Keep at it I say.


Edit :  PS:

I have a version of Goblins in one of my stories that are not named Goblins. There is 3 reasons.

1. They aren't traditional goblins as depicted in pretty much every fantasy fiction I have read. Their similarities are huge but they aren't the same. It would be like calling a chimpanze a spider monkey, or an orangutan a gorilla...
2. goblins are their ancestor and they are described as such... much to the same as Evolution from Neanderthall (unsure on that spelling) to homosapien. 
3. I don't like the word Goblin... and if you look at Harry Potter... not all Goblins are the normal man-eating fiends found in LoTR... todays harry potter readers might not be so unforgiving of tomorrows "Shrags" that are in fact the older version of Goblins.


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## Outiboros (Mar 26, 2014)

I don't like orcs. They're just mooks - goons without personality or goal, to step in wherever the story demands them to. What name you give them matters little - goblins, urgals, orchs. If anything, I'm the exact opposite of the fantasy reader you described. I'll roll my eyes at dragons and magical doomsdays. 

The first story I wrote was a fantasy story. It wasn't another Tolkien copy, and I didn't try to be the next GRRM, but I didn't make sure to stay out of their niches. My story went where I wanted it to go. Trying to evade the clichés of one niche will only drive you into the arms of others.


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## Caragula (Mar 26, 2014)

"In  my reading I have come under the impression that Fantasy readers  are more or less "set in their ways" and are pretty reluctant to accept  something new in the genre. "

I saw this list yesterday: http://www.buzzfeed.com/mccarricksean/reasons-why-2014-may-be-the-best-year-for-fantasy-fjmu.

How many of them are parts of trilogies? How predictable are the fonts and covers?

If readers don't want fantasy by the numbers, who's telling the publishers and the marketers, who appear to be doing a good job of homogenising the genre for us.


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## Morkonan (Mar 26, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> ...I do know that I need to look up a list of creatures found in Fantasy. Maybe a D&D type list. Then I may be able to find a couple of the lesser used critters and bring them in to suit my nefarious purposes.



Dig up an old D&D Monster Manual. You'll find tons of them in there. Read about their social and organizational structures. Then, mix one of them with a real-world animal or group of people. How about Bunyip Vikings? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunyip

http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Bunyip (D&D Version)

Do this a few times and it will get much easier. Just don't be too obvious on the "real world" parts. You don't want, for instance, a race of Roman Legionaire Bunnies. Or... maybe you do? (I think Roman Bunnies would be awesome! "Et tu Bunni?"


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## riven_hands (Mar 26, 2014)

Stick with what you're doing.  As a fantasy reader, I've grown tired of elves, dwarves, trolls, and orcs.  Christopher Paolini was brought up earlier, and love him or hate him, elves and dwarves are still elves and dwarves in his books.  Even the Ra'zac are like less numerous Nazgul.  It's true that you can use the standard creatures and still write a great book with them, but I'd rather read a fantasy that I couldn't predict the characteristics of every race from the back cover summary, you know?  So go for it.  Even if the book is published but doesn't sell well, at least you'll be the guy that tried something new and have a reference point for what might work and what doesn't.


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## Kepharel (Mar 26, 2014)

Hi Bowman,

In my opinion your work will stand or fall on the humanity contained within.  How you deal with the human frailty, greed, obsession, evil, etc that motivates your characters will decide if you have a good novel.  Whatever the world you create, however fantastical, it will only resonate with how compellingly you paint their human condition, even if they are not human


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## bazz cargo (Mar 27, 2014)

Hi Bowman,
I had to have a bit if a think about your question. 

When you dig deep down into any  book, getting past the nuts and bolts, you find the the story.  Whether it is in a boardroom, on Titan or deep in Mugwort Forest the story is the thing. The complexity of life. Along the way there is nothing stopping you from challenging the accepted roles that are usually played out, or even have fun and subverting clichés. 

What works for you is part of your writers tool kit. Enjoy your writing and some of us will enjoy it too.

Good luck


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## jacyee34 (Mar 27, 2014)

I don't know about everyone else on here, but I really like when fantasy authors go outside the box in their novels. Especially when they _really_ go outside the box. Just as a random example from my book shelf...the antagonists in Jeff Vandermeer's _Finch _are a bunch of sentient mushroom people from another dimension...definitely outside the box. And Vandermeer is a fairly successful author too.


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## T.S.Bowman (Mar 27, 2014)

bazz cargo said:


> Along the way there is nothing stopping you from challenging the accepted roles that are usually played out, or even have fun and subverting clichés.
> 
> What works for you is part of your writers tool kit. Enjoy your writing and some of us will enjoy it too.
> 
> Good luck



That's one of the things I was sort of worried about. I decided to not use the traditional elf characters, so I made a completely different race of "people" to be the oldest of the "faerie" and "keepers of the magic". 

I guess all I really need ow i a better name for them than what I have currently. Maybe I'll type some random letters and throw an apostrophe in the middle somewhere. That seems like it's all the rage among Fantasy authors these days. LOL

- - - Updated - - -



jacyee34 said:


> I don't know about everyone else on here, but I really like when fantasy authors go outside the box in their novels. Especially when they _really_ go outside the box. Just as a random example from my book shelf...the antagonists in Jeff Vandermeer's _Finch _are a bunch of sentient mushroom people from another dimension...definitely outside the box. And Vandermeer is a fairly successful author too.



Well..I'm not going to be going THAT far out of the box. But there are a couple of things in my book that go against the proverbial grain.


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## bazz cargo (Mar 28, 2014)

> I guess all I really need ow i a better name for them than what I have  currently. Maybe I'll type some random letters and throw an apostrophe  in the middle somewhere. That seems like it's all the rage among Fantasy  authors these days. LOL


The random apostrophe is a sign that the writer has followed the herd. Try car number plates. I like Rex Teza, Akobo Tau, and others that the plates suggest.


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## Morkonan (Mar 28, 2014)

bazz cargo said:


> .... Try car number plates. I like Rex Teza, Akobo Tau, and others that the plates suggest.





Nice idea. There's one problem - The US State that I am in at the moment seems to be filled with people that love to have personalized licensed plates. (In the US, you can pay an extra fee and get whatever you want, within reason, put on your license plate.) So, "4X MOMMEE" and "R3L3NTL355" and crap like that are all over the darn place....


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## ShadowEyes (Mar 28, 2014)

One of the things that I enjoy about Miyazaki films or Naruto are the cultural differences. It seems like Japanese culture has 1,000,000 different demons, and then demons based on ordinary household objects. These aren't "traditional" as far as I know. So you may want to pull from different sources, like, even American folklore. How many people, for instance, know this about werewolves:  "The historian Pliny recorded that a Roman family, for some obscure reason, chose a member each year to assume a wolflike form that lasted for nine years" (_Forgotten English_ by Jeffrey Kacirk).

One of the best parts of writing fantasy is that it can be as derivative or unique as you want it to be. _The Last Unicorn_ by Peter S. Beagle had a unicorn and a magician, and yet,  1.  It wasn't explicit magic. 2.  It was assumed as a part of reality. and 3.  The characters felt real. That's the kicker. The genre of character doesn't matter. It's the characters themselves that matter. As long as they're more than just baddies for your hero to beat up.

This is what has delineated genres, I think. Heroic fantasy simply uses baddies to beat up. It's not my forte, but I think _Conan_. Epic fantasy focuses on "a large cast ... world-building" (Brandon Sanderson lecture). The characters are a part of the world, object pieces to be moved like chess. And urban fantasy uses the confines of a city to focus more on the human aspects of creatures more than the fantastical. I'm assuming most of this. You can correct me if you think I'm wrong, wrong, wrong.

My main point is that design doesn't necessarily impede function (even though design is limitless), which is to extrapolate human characteristics onto inhuman flaws or qualities, to support the story in this fashion.


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## Moxis (Mar 29, 2014)

For every thing you can think of in the world there is a demon for it, The Catholics have a saint for it, the Greeks have a god for it.


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## Tan (Mar 29, 2014)

While being different is a good thing, don't be different just for the sake of being unique. Make the world your own with the good and bad as long as it suits your world. Focus on making the world a world with it's own currency system and economy and so fourth. the more detail you can put in the world, do it. Look at JKR, she made up a sport, money, a bank, and all these things made the wizarding world an amazing place. But it is far from a utopia, there is discrimination and bigotry and corrupt politicians and all the flaws real governments and societies have. the result? Many people, me included, love the wizarding world and respect her more for all these wonderful details.


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## T.S.Bowman (Mar 29, 2014)

bazz cargo said:


> The random apostrophe is a sign that the writer has followed the herd. Try car number plates. I like Rex Teza, Akobo Tau, and others that the plates suggest.



I was being somewhat sarcastic in that statement. I recently posted a thread about how much that kind of thing drives me batty. 

I do like the license plate idea, though. It should be pretty easy where I live. I have Ohio and Kentucky plates to draw on.


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## T.S.Bowman (Mar 29, 2014)

Tan said:


> While being different is a good thing, don't be different just for the sake of being unique. Make the world your own with the good and bad as long as it suits your world. Focus on making the world a world with it's own currency system and economy and so fourth. the more detail you can put in the world, do it. Look at JKR, she made up a sport, money, a bank, and all these things made the wizarding world an amazing place. But it is far from a utopia, there is discrimination and bigotry and corrupt politicians and all the flaws real governments and societies have. the result? Many people, me included, love the wizarding world and respect her more for all these wonderful details.



I'm not really sure how much of that kind of thing I am going to go into with this story. It's going to be somewhere in the middle of Hero Fantasy and Epic Fantasy. I don't have the prose writing skills (yet) to pull of an Epic style story. 

I'm very much going to delve into the D&D Monster Manual to see if I can come up with a couple of critters. Funny though, my MC battling creatures isn't even that important to me. I feel there probably should be at least one battle before he gets to the main climactic conflict..but then again...

I am trying my best to make the story more character driven than action driven. Hopefully, I'll be able to pull it off.


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## Caragula (Mar 29, 2014)

"D&D Monster Manual"

You might not have to go that far, consider mashups of existing animals, wasps or bees that hunt in packs, as in, actually hunt, like monkeys do, herding prey etc., or those plant/animal symbiosis things, e.g. you have plants that give off a very soporific vapor/scent that knocks out or sends people into comas and the animals that feed off the people perhaps defecate all around the soil of the plant with a particular type of faeces that feeds the plant and so both need each other.  You've just got to watch a bunch of David Attenborough documentaries and think, 'man, how much more dangerous would that animal be if....'


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## Morkonan (Mar 29, 2014)

caragula said:


> .... You've just got to watch a bunch of david attenborough documentaries and think, 'man, how much more dangerous would that animal be if....'



Penguin Spiders!



+1


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## TWErvin2 (Mar 29, 2014)

Stick with your original ideas and creatures to inhabit the world you're writing.

Stephen R. Donaldson has unique creatures and beings in his world, such as Ur-Viles and Elohim. But he also had giants. He used what was necessary for his story.


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## Greimour (Mar 29, 2014)

Morkonan said:


> Penguin Spiders!
> 
> 
> 
> +1



Lol... a Spenguin?

Spiduin
Penider
Beaknid
Daddy Long Flippers
Arakrill (because penguins eat krill)
Arachtarctic Flipper Spider


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## T.S.Bowman (Mar 30, 2014)

Morkonan said:


> Penguin Spiders!
> 
> 
> 
> +1



LMAO! I swear I am gonna use those if I ever decide to do a Fantasy/Comedy. :-D


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## T.S.Bowman (Mar 30, 2014)

Greimour said:


> Lol... a Spenguin?
> 
> Spiduin
> Penider
> ...



Definitely wouldn't go with that last one. My fingers would tie themselves in knots trying to type that. LOL

Might be able to use Penider though. 

I really do need to come up with a better name for the race of creatures/people I came up with. They are Yoda-like in stature (although they don't look like him) and they hold the secrets to all of the magic in the world I created. They are an ancient race that isn't native to the world but were brought there in a way similar to the way my MC got there.

Any suggestions?


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## Greimour (Mar 30, 2014)

You can literally use any random gibberish name you come up with... Yoda wasn't given a species name though, so I don't think you have to be overly concerned with any species name at all. 

Take a few foreign or ancient language words to see what you come up with...

Like Latin: 

Vis > 'of force' 
Robor/Roboris - 'of robustness' 
=
Visrobor

This way of naming is not uncommon in all things. Take for example *viceroy*, which came to my mind first because of visrobor.... Vice is from latin  prefix vice- meaning 'in place of' and roy is from the french word roi, meaning 'King'. So using two or more languages to mix together a name, title or even species is not something you couldn't do.


or 
Welsh:
Ledrithiau = illusion, magic

Latvian:
Burvju = Magic, Magical, Fairy, Elfin


So... Who named the species? Man? A German man? A British man? A Latvian woman? Is it the species name they gave to themselves, such as Human is what man gave himself?

With Lord of The Rings, Elves were what man named them; they named themselves Quendi. 
So... who named your Yoda species?


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## T.S.Bowman (Mar 31, 2014)

That would be a pretty good question. I'm leaning toward a Welsh person because the name you put in there really sounds good to me.


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