# How did you learn what is good style? What is your definition of a good style?



## Theglasshouse (Jun 16, 2020)

How did you learn what is good style? What is your definition of a good style?


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## VRanger (Jun 17, 2020)

My philosophy is to "learn good style" by reading successful authors. Of course, there are a few example of "successful authors" who are terrible writers, so you have to avoid those pitfalls. LOL 

"Good style" has to fit what we're writing. It varies by genre and author. I think we'd get bored in a hurry if every author had the same style, and if you used a sterile and jargony sci-fi style for a gothic romance, readers would close the book quickly (or vice versa!).

Reading blogs and lessons about style give you something to think about, but not something to live by, or more to the point, to write by.

So my definition of "good style" is anything that makes me want to turn to the next page, and not anything that throws me out of the story -- lots of misspelled words, childish grammar mistakes, amateurish phrases, too much coincidence, really dumb solutions, etc.


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## Cephus (Jun 17, 2020)

Read successful authors and learn how they write. Ultimately, there's no such thing as "good style". It's entirely subjective. If your readers like it, it's good enough. If they don't, it's not. There are tons of books that I read that I think "I wouldn't have done it that way" but it works in the context of their book. So long as you like it, don't worry about it. If you don't like it, read something else. You can't appeal to everyone.


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## Theglasshouse (Jun 17, 2020)

I was looking at some software which can be expensive if bought. I've been researching alternatives to prowritng aid since all I really need is to check for long sentences and redundancy. I need something that works in microsoft word. So far stylechecker 4 has a lot of features but can set me back 200 dollars. There is also wordrack which is an ediitng software. It tries to improve someone's concise writing skills. For editing stylechecker 4 offers a 90 dollar course which is delivered online. I have some money saved up but I dont want to spend a lot.


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## indianroads (Jun 17, 2020)

READING is the best teacher. Read good books in your chosen genre to get a feel for plot and character development, rhythm, timing, arcs, etc. Probably everyone here has a book they pick up and read every day.

One of my professors used to admonish us, saying: Don't read Ca-ca... but the required reading for her class was the most tedious and awful crap I've ever read. So, I guess, ca-ca is in the eye of the beholder.

I also suggest journaling, because it helps build descriptive skills and gets you in the habit of writing every day.


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## Theglasshouse (Jun 17, 2020)

Not disagreeing. I know off one book on style that treats it as an area that can be improved. I agree with what you said cephus and and I also agree with vranger's comments. For example. There is a book that is titled: The Writer's Style: A Rhetorical Field Guide.

I know it is hard to please everyone and in the process I could have to spend more time correcting the text. However, sometimes I know style is all an opinion since it is subjective. "I think you need to add more emotion here, and you could shorten the sentences."

Since I read out loud my work using recorded notes. It tends to add extra words since I read out loud to proofread and rewrite sentences. I also make longer sentences than usual. How can I fix that? My solution so far has been to look for alternatives in software. So I can detect the long sentences that bug writers. I admit this is the first time I get a comment that says "these sentences are long." But that's because I must read the short stories I write out loud with a voice note. So I can notice where the mistakes are in the writing. Since I have a disability that involves reading and writing my only solution seems to center on making shorter sentences with software. Or is there a better solution to shorten sentences ? (my plans for the moment are to write only short stories for professional publications and that way have fun and since I don't mind spending my time this way)  (the second solution is to use software)

Since this draft  of what I wrote has been written "carefully" and since I put a lot of time in revising. I could modify the style for the sentence length. If I can add emotion maybe its debatable if I can but I am willing to try it because it can improve it a bit. I was given some lines that were rewritten as examples that could improve.

So should all comments on style be looked into? Any advice or solutions on this that would help writers here besides the ones talked about concerning style, long sentences, subjective style, or adding emotion?

Journaling for description sounds like a good idea. I will try to do that. That's easy to do and I can try to implement that easily.

Do you journal videos of things you see in documentaries? So for example if I wanted to describe a place I've never been to I could stop the video and try to describe the movement of a character on youtube.

And while I ask this question I will ask another question. Are historical documentaries the best ones to write settings?

The only way I see myself attempting a novel is with an english degree. I have seen online people with dyslexia study english as a mayor. It's just something that won't happen right away. I see a story as a way to accomplish something. There are some prolific short story writers.

Lastly, I will read some published stories to get an idea of what is good style which is advice that was given to me as well and was feedback.

An old fashioned solution is to put word in landscape view to make sure I can sense the length of the sentences. I admit I did not try that. I think they renamed it in the newest version of word to web layout.


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## luckyscars (Jun 17, 2020)

Theglasshouse said:


> Do you journal videos of things you see in documentaries? So for example if I wanted to describe a place I've never been to I could stop the video and try to describe the movement of a character on youtube.
> 
> And while I ask this question I will ask another question. Are historical documentaries the best ones to write settings?



You could do that as an exercise. 

 It seems to me that description-of-setting is oversubscribed, considering how indifferent most readers are to it. Usually, when reading, I don't need a place described and I certainly don't want it described in any tedious length. Short, specific details work better. Focusing on the feelings it creates and the sensory: I don't need to know what the room looks like so much as I need to know how it feels standing in it, and that's about people not furniture and trees. Good style is communicating that information as efficiently and clearly as possible. I don't really know how much describing a scene based on a video can help with that...

I can't answer your second question because I don't really understand it.


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## Theglasshouse (Jun 18, 2020)

Well I was wondering if I researched a place that has a lot of history whether that can help me? Because the documentary could focus on one place and setting. That's ideally what I wish a documentary would focus on. Instead of talking about people. It would refer to the place, and I can depict the setting. What I am saying is kind of obvious I admit and I am trying to find a way to find details outside my house such as watching a video that some people might do as an activity. I sometimes get it right and wrong. I may have adequate description at times but it lacks emotion.

However, those are some good points on image and emotion. They need to be specific enough, and I should not over describe. My approach in the past has been to make it up from places I know. It had mixed success with that approach. I never journaled. However, indianroads made a good comment I will keep in mind when describing which is to journal it. Also, it is as if the emotion was not being felt in the description.

I was told my images or description or style needed more emotion to make it work. So I tried in the second revision to do just this.

Well that idea for an exercise came from this person who explains how to construct prose. I hope that book has some decent exercises. It has a lot of exercises. It's the second book I found on how to construct prose. It's called the mechanics of prose by P. E. Rowe. I'll give it a try in the next few days. So I can learn more on how to depict emotions while describing a few details. This seems easy but is an error in my style imo.


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## indianroads (Jun 18, 2020)

> Journaling for description sounds like a good idea. I will try to do  that. That's easy to do and I can try to implement that easily.
> 
> Do you journal videos of things you see in documentaries? So for example  if I wanted to describe a place I've never been to I could stop the  video and try to describe the movement of a character on youtube.
> 
> ...



IMO you're over thinking. Just sit down, plan (or not) your novel, figure out the world it's set in, create some character sheets, and start writing.

Journaling is good - but for me it's more valuable as a way to build the habit of writing every day.

The best thing you can do in preparation, is something you should have been doing all along - PAY ATTENTION. Notice things. Videos of a place are fine, but it's better to visit, walk through it and get the feel of the place - they have emotions of their own. What do cathedrals feel like, what can I hear and see while sitting in a redwood forest? What's it like inside a cowboy or biker bar... or a cocktail lounge? What emotions do you feel when walking through a big city vs a small town? Watch people and listen to the way they talk. I travel a lot on my motorcycle, and pay attention to how the air feels and what smells are. Doing that, you build an internal library you will refer to as you write.


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## Theglasshouse (Jun 18, 2020)

I wish I could do all  of what you said. I very rarely leave the house nowadays. I don't drive (but basically I am afraid of crashing the car and the coronavirus and I can't leave the house without wearing a face mask to protect myself). I haven't left the house in a month I think.

The only real resource I have  is the computer. Paying more attention than usual is as you said is useful. But I must use the internet as a resource too. The library that I know is far away. Everything needs to be photocopied since they don't let you borrow things. All I have is the internet. I do like the idea of journaling for a good while until I have a more complete idea of the details that are in the picture.


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## luckyscars (Jun 18, 2020)

Theglasshouse said:


> I wish I could do all  of what you said. I very rarely leave the house nowadays. I don't drive (but basically I am afraid of crashing the car and the coronavirus and I can't leave the house without wearing a face mask to protect myself). I haven't left the house in a month I think.
> 
> The only real resource I have  is the computer. Paying more attention than usual is as you said is useful. But I must use the internet as a resource too. The library that I know is far away. Everything needs to be photocopied since they don't let you borrow things. All I have is the internet. I do like the idea of journaling for a good while until I have a more complete idea of the details that are in the picture.



Yeah, but I mean, some of the best books have been written while the author was in prison.

You should do what you feel is right for you, but if you're hoping for some assurance that journaling YouTube videos will make your writing considerably better than if you simply read a lot and wrote a lot, I don't know if you're going to find that. The only real way I know to get better is to read a lot and write a lot.


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## Theglasshouse (Jun 18, 2020)

I need to do some more research. I have 3-4 anthologies I need to read. Thanks for the input. I think I'll read online some recommendations. Locus Magazine has led me to some good authors. I also got to read some free science fiction some years ago that were in the sci-fi forums. I don't know if their stories are still there but I will check.


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## Theglasshouse (Jun 19, 2020)

I am researching locations. I think if I look for instance for facts about a place I will be able to achieve more concrete description. I stumbled upon my research poe alley and other alleys. I recently wrote about a story with an alley and shrine. There is a lot of information I was neglecting to research. 
Here's an example of a link with an example of an alley and shrine: http://www.unmissabletokyo.com/golden-gai . I also researched Poe's alley.

 I have a lot of time during the day. So sometimes I revisit some old books I have on the bookshelf. One of these is the portable writer's mentor which is reference and not meant to be read in a single sitting. At the end of each section it summarizes and tells you how to do things by way of activities. This is better for a fly of the wall perspective I admit and 3rd person.
Sources for description using the internet.
1)facts 
2) anecdotes
3)mystical facts about the place (or mystical notions about anything in the piece such as facts through the lens of a different society example the Aztecs) 
4)a personal story

Some ways to expand description or a setting:

1) elaboration of a fact
2) researching facts that have been mentioned that may be more obscure.
It's time-consuming but it will help me for dictating settings or for any project I am working on.


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## Attak88 (Jun 30, 2020)

Good style to me is a good "Flow" in the story/poem/novel/lyric.


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## JJBuchholz (Jun 30, 2020)

Theglasshouse said:


> How did you learn what is good style?



Reading books from several different affluent authors over the years, as well as applying what I've read and learned from various sources/experiences to keep evolving my own writing. I am of the opinion that every author's/writer's style continues to evolve over the course of their lifetime. Mine certainly does, and it's always interesting to go back and read some of my older material to see just how far I've evolved, and how much my writing has changed over the past two decades alone.

-JJB


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## James Hercules Sutton (Jun 30, 2020)

Style is the easiest attribute for a poet to obtain; don't fret over it. It grows as you grow. For practice, try writing in the style of a poet that you admire; it's an interesting exercise, particularly if sonnets are involved. But it can be dangerous: osmosis. Dylan Thomas, for example, not only plagiarized, but assumed the style of the author he plagiarized & made it his own, from which he never escaped. It made him famous, but what doth it profit a poet to steal a style & lose his soul? That's the risk of imitation.

For prose, I read through the canon, of course, inclining to ironists; but the high point of prose around here was _The New Yorke_r magazine in the Age of Ross. Each of his writers had a different style, and each was superb: James Thurber[/FONT], E. B. White, [/FONT]John McNulty[/FONT], [/FONT]Joseph Mitchell[/FONT], [/FONT]Katharine[/FONT] S. White, S. J. [/FONT]Perelman[/FONT][FONT=&quot], [FONT=&quot]Janet Flanner[FONT=&quot] ("Genet"), [FONT=&quot]Wolcott Gibbs[FONT=&quot], Alexander Woollcott, St. [FONT=&quot]Clair McKelway[FONT=&quot], [FONT=&quot]John O'Hara[FONT=&quot], Robert Benchley, Dorothy Parker, Vladimir Nabokov, Will Cuppy, and J.D. Salinger.


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## Theglasshouse (Jun 30, 2020)

Thanks for this opinion. I've been meaning to read more. I want to rewrite some plots and there seems to be a consensus in this thread that reading other authors enhances style. For plotting I read that it is useful to read widely to plot with original ideas a new story. However of course not to plagiarize the author. But to make outlines of their plot points and change the character or central characters to create a different premise. That way a writer will have a different story altogether. Or if the setting changes the plot. Which I will be trying to read to plot and imitate. That is an excellent list of recommendations as to who to read and I did like the advice you wrote on imitation. I admit I am a new to imitation since as much as I gave an opinion once on it in favor since I have a book on the topic. But it's superficial in its treatment and defines what is imitation. It says to imitate the classics so that would eliminate plagiarism somewhat. Such as anything in the public domain. I will give imitation a try since it seems to be a good idea and I have read some authors here trying it.

I will keep your list of recommendations in mind and advice in mind as I try to find a strategy that will work for me to improve the style of the description.


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## James Hercules Sutton (Jun 30, 2020)

What I did to learn how to write sonnets was to translate Homer & Hesiod into sonnets. Not having to deal with plot left me free to work with form; it was liberating. I can write a sonnet now in fifteen minutes, twice edited, but then, it's ironic to try to perfect a form already obsolete. The process you describe is much the same; there's a good chance it will work for you.





Theglasshouse said:


> Thanks for this opinion. I've been meaning to read more. I want to rewrite some plots and there seems to be a consensus in this thread that reading other authors enhances style. For plotting I read that it is useful to read widely to plot with original ideas a new story. However of course not to plagiarize the author. But to make outlines of their plot points and change the character or central characters to create a different premise. That way a writer will have a different story altogether. Or if the setting changes the plot. Which I will be trying to read to plot and imitate. That is an excellent list of recommendations as to who to read and I did like the advice you wrote on imitation. I admit I am a new to imitation since as much as I gave an opinion once on it in favor since I have a book on the topic. But it's superficial in its treatment and defines what is imitation. It says to imitate the classics so that would eliminate plagiarism somewhat. Such as anything in the public domain. I will give imitation a try since it seems to be a good idea and I have read some authors here trying it.
> 
> I will keep your list of recommendations in mind and advice in mind as I try to find a strategy that will work for me to improve the style of the description.


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## Theglasshouse (Jun 30, 2020)

I think I have the general idea on how to imitate. I even have an example from this book that hints at how it is done. This is an example from a book on rhetoric. Thanks again for advising me.

Rewritten from the fall of the house of Usher:
Ghost story rewrite:
The room was vast and dim; the ceiling was almost out of sight. The windows were narrow and out of reach, the floor was of a dusty wood. Night had almost come, and the last light of the sun was crimson; it struggled through the glass, but the corners of the room remained dark. Tattered dirty curtains blocked out all other light. Dark sofas, battered chairs, and unfriendly clusters of tables and rugs clustered the room.

Example of a rewrite and imitation taken from a book of rhetoric:
Romance rewrite:
The room was spacious and lofty, with huge arched windows. The floor was made of golden oak. The glowing light of the setting sun spilled through the windows and lit the middle of the room, leaving the corners cozy and dim. White curtains billowed at the windows. A squashy comfortable sofa sat in the middle of the room, with a loveseat at one side.

The Fall of the House of Usher:

 The room in which I found myself was very large and excessively lofty. The windows were long, narrow, and pointed, and at so vast a distance from the black oaken floor as to be altogether inaccessible from within. Feeble gleams of encrimsoned light made their way through the trellised panes, and served to render sufficiently distinct the more prominent objects around; the eye, however, struggled in vain to reach the remoter angles of the chamber, or the recesses of the vaulted and fretted ceiling. Dark draperies hung upon the walls. The general furniture was profuse, comfortless, antique, and tattered. Many books and musical instruments lay scattered about, but failed to give any vitality to the scene. I felt that I breathed an atmosphere of sorrow. An air of stern, deep, and irredeemable gloom hung over and pervaded all.

I have a book with more examples. It seems to suggest imitation is the way. I can see why. Some writers have richer vocabularies and images in description.

Also space and distance words is the next example. It quotes the hobbit which I won't try since that is a very well known work under copyright.


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## James Hercules Sutton (Jun 30, 2020)

To me, this isn't imitation, but circumlocution. To imitate, one needs to get into the head & heart of the original, then apply to something new that needs saying. 



Theglasshouse said:


> I think I have the general idea on how to imitate. I even have an example from this book that hints at how it is done. This is an example from a book on rhetoric. Thanks again for advising me.
> 
> Rewritten from the fall of the house of Usher:
> Ghost story rewrite:
> ...


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## Theglasshouse (Jun 30, 2020)

Ok. I searched the internet. Here's an example of how to imitate. That would be the instructions. I think that example I gave earlier might be written for assessment purposes (since it is a textbook on how to learn rhetoric for description) and isn't imitation. Would be it frowned upon by readers if I simply used the sentences of a room to describe my own house to write different physical details for the room? Is that considered plagiarism (the above examples of circumlocution)? I was thinking of using the public domain only for that.

On a web search I came across this. This does sound like style. You copy the mood and heart of the piece by reading a work and not copying nouns adjectives, and so on such as verbs. Hopefully this makes more sense than before. I think I confused them. I think is might be closer to what you want to explain to me.


> *How it works*
> 
> Here’s a breakdown of how the ‘imitation as inspiration’ exercise works:
> 
> ...


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## Taylor (Jul 1, 2020)

Theglasshouse said:


> How did you learn what is good style? What is your definition of a good style?



If it keeps my attention, and I keep reading because I'm enjoying it.  



vranger said:


> "Good style" has to fit what we're writing. It varies by genre and author. I think we'd get bored in a hurry if every author had the same style, and if you used a sterile and jargony sci-fi style for a gothic romance, readers would close the book quickly (or vice versa!).



So true!  I learned a lot about style when I was commissioned to author a "Style Guide for Audit Reports."  The goal was to create a set of rules that would eliminate any style of the author and that given the same fact pattern and circumstances, everyone would write the same report.  However, there were many revisions to the report to achieve this.  In the end, I found it was impossible to meet this goal. 

Eventually, we created a report that populated multiple choice sentences that the auditors could choose from.  A "Styless Guide for Audit Reports."  



indianroads said:


> READING is the best teacher. Read good books in your chosen genre to get a feel for plot and character development, rhythm, timing, arcs, etc. Probably everyone here has a book they pick up and read every day.



Totally agree.  However, I am writing in the crime genre.   I am trying to find good novels about modern day crimes that do not involve a murder.   Since my stories involve crimes, but not murder, I feel the writing style needs to be a bit different than a murder mystery.  Does anyone know of good authors that write about crime...and no murder?


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## Terry D (Jul 1, 2020)

Taylor said:


> Does anyone know of good authors that write about crime...and no murder?



Here's a quick list. There may be a murder, or two, but that's not the driver for the books.

https://strandmag.com/top-ten-heist-novels/


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## Theglasshouse (Jul 1, 2020)

A lot of writers have different ways to define styles and approach it a different way such as cross-pollination and imitation. Style is a term that could mean different things according to the person.  Any opinions on my last questions? Anyone can answer and share what they think.

Style I have even heard people define as personality, some as voice, some as subjects an author chooses.


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## Taylor (Jul 1, 2020)

Terry D said:


> Here's a quick list. There may be a murder, or two, but that's not the driver for the books.
> 
> https://strandmag.com/top-ten-heist-novels/



Thanks Terry.  

With a quick glance, I notice they are all men.  Wonder if men are more fascinated with crime than women.  My book based on a crime is geared to the female reader.  Do you think that could pose an extra challenge for establishing a good style?


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## Theglasshouse (Jul 1, 2020)

Someone was generous enough to write in a critique that he preferred almost as if raw emotions in the sentences. To him the conflict needed its emotions. Because then it felt flat.

IMO, when I wrote that someone was abducted. I needed to be more creative with my style. The moment that it mattered is when the language needed to be more powerful.

I know edgar allen poe had a good style. If you read his stories its perfect for a foreboding or mysterious mood when something is about to happen. He also happened to be a gifted poet. He was well known for that. He might be good enough for you to read. He wrote some detective fiction and was the first when writing it. He created the genre. He also created science fiction according to some scholars. The murders in rue morge is a good example and the story with the air blimp or hot air balloon.

I know some people advocate imitation. Some people's emotions can be triggered by music.  I am most certainly going to read more writers with a rich style. Anyone can benefit.

Now whether imitation is the above I don't know with 100% certainty.

If you want a mystery novel or a murder mystery, I recommend books by Patricia Highsmith and Elizabeth George. Also, there is Agatha Christie.


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## Pallandozi (Aug 22, 2020)

Try Damon Runyon.


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## Lee Messer (Aug 22, 2020)

I tend to mimic style, so when I write, I stop reading similar works. Right now I'm working on novels, so I only read articles, conduct related research, and other commentary. This site for instance. I've seen even famous authors lose their style sometimes, or maybe they were trying something new.

Seen Stephen King do it, but strange thing about Stephen King is his way of making the supernatural exist within a plain mundane existence. It's like he's always telling campfire stories. Every once in a while you'll see him try something different, but you can tell it was inspired somehow. It's not him.

Seen Clive Barker try out some Fantasy/Horror which was interesting, but he's generally a graphic author. Everything he does with description, and imagery is just awesome. I'm not sure, but I think he's gay. It's in some of his work, but not all of it. Take "The Madonna", but then compare it to "The Hellbound Heart", two similarly underground sexual themes. While I'm not gay, I appreciate his work more than Stephen King. The style is more versatile, but I'll see him step way from his own signature style from time to time.

I like the straight forward setting/plot/setting/plot... plot resolution... leave an open style for sequence.
My settings are usually a "swoop in" from 2nd person, or "waking dream" from 2nd person. I enjoy The Pit and The Pendulum approach. It's like a dream-state immersion. I probably get this from Barker.

Koontz's work is at times bizarre and disorienting, but I haven't read much as I'm kinda sticking to the current style I'm using. I do know he brings humor, but I can't stand doing that. It's just not scary to me. 

I like to perfect before I move on as well, otherwise I'm uncomfortable. I try to keep the humor to a social interaction. I think irony and horror don't mix well, like oil and water.

Wes Craven's work is marked by change and fringe. I'm a fan of his work, don't get me wrong, but he's humorous as well within the horror itself. This makes it not so horrific.

This is my point though. I want my work to be a certain kind of scary. Definitive. One of the things I keep having to do is find the humor and delete it.


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## TheManx (Aug 22, 2020)

Have you tried plagiarism? And when I say that, I mean I’m mostly against it.


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## Xander416 (Aug 22, 2020)

Theglasshouse said:


> How did you learn what is good style?


Looking at others' styles and trying what they do to find out what works for me and what doesn't.

Yeah, probably a cliche answer, but that's it in a nutshell, TBH.


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## Theglasshouse (Aug 22, 2020)

I compose by writing spontaneously usually. That is like other writers. However, I don't often take a look on how a writer's words could influence me by feeling the mood of the "description" or anything that conveys mood.  By this I mean not just emotion, but also how they arrange the scene. If I like a phrase, I don't often rephrase it so that the words are similar, but so as to write the sentences have different subjects and ideas. Despite this bad habit. I am considering doing so. 

Here's where my weaknesses lie. Imagery is a big weakness. So much I plan on ordering two-four books tops on dealing with the topic.

Thirdly, I also write with great difficulty in the wrong syntax sometimes descriptive paragraphs. I use a text to speech software. I even have dragon speaking software. Despite this maybe the problem has to do with not brainstorming enough at the beginning or clustering. I don't know how other writers do describe. But I rarely leave the house. I haven't been diagnosed but I believe dyslexia makes it more difficult to check my own work. (currently investing in a synthesized speech program that helps me spot more mistakes since it sounds more human)

A creative guide I borrowed suggested I read travel guides. Which sounds reasonable. To invent description is difficult. To make it up.

However, I made a thread the other day and plan to incorporate the tips.

I even plan on buying a book on composition for creative writing written by a composition teacher. I hope here she reveals prewriting strategies for generating description, setting. (example clustering and listing applied to writing stories or poems)

The library is a big no for me unless I use the internet archive website. Because most libraries are private here, and so the internet is my only source.

Imitation may help with trying to duplicate the mood. But imagery is a big part of why I get it wrong. People who read my work ask for settings.

I also found a book on making one sentence that is adjacent flow to the next.

All this takes is time and resources.

Interaction with setting is also an area of weakness. 

Most of my stories are dialogue driven. I can write dialogue with much fewer flaws or mistakes. 

So it's slow progress. But I am trying to address the above problems and I will take in mind what people have mentioned in here in this thread and the advice in setting. Thanks everyone for the good advice.

The microphone which I ordered gets here in less than 3 weeks. I realize I have unique writing problems. I have always wondering how other authors approached imagery which is a part of style.


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## Lee Messer (Aug 22, 2020)

I believe that when I describe things, I separate it into parts, and then focus on each piece like describing a painting. The cumulation of descriptions creates the rendition in words. It helps to know an art student in your past intimate relationships. If you do not understand art, she'll make damn sure you will.

So description is a rendition in words, piece by piece, section by section. Then you can summarize it with a general statement even.

It's all a process to me. I never introduce the plot without a setting. Then I create a cycle of settings followed by plots. Whole chapters work that way, and usually end with an open ended plot. I like to end my profound statements with a "mic drop" moment in a dialogue like someone actually said it in the story.

When I quote actual research, I allow the characters to do it in dialogue too. Helps the reader immerse themselves with the statements and conclusions made. I have tons of strategies though. Sometimes I dream it. Sometimes it's a nightmare. Sometimes I get drunk and hang out only to hear someone say something truly profound or inspiring. I mostly get my stuff from people I meet in real life. I never knew a stranger.


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## Theglasshouse (Aug 22, 2020)

It's tricky to teach it to some people such as myself who have great difficulty. Some of us can say how we do it. But people learn differently. I happen to be imo a person that would benefit from writing exercises when writing description. Explaining it is not how to teach it in my humble opinion since people learn different from others. My guess is it's like school. You practice and do it in front of other people. In this case I would need peer feedback. This is my opinion. But the kind of explanations I kind of want would involve prewriting the whole thing as a process. Since writing for example essays is a process that doesn''t focus on the product's specific qualities (donald murray renowed teacher of writing nonfiction for universities and who has some exercises for each discourse mode). I appreciate the explanation. As I used to teach I know some sort of ways, styles, or activities, which are some ways in which people do learn. It seems I am looking for some sort of resource or help that could get me writing one. Thanks anyways since you tried to explain it but I think this is something that requires instructions that could make this easier by doing it in steps if possible.


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## Cave Troll (Aug 22, 2020)

Style for me is hard to nail down. Cause some authors I like alot, and others
that write similar stuff are crap. 

I've been told that I write best from instinct, so style can vary widely.


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## Lee Messer (Aug 22, 2020)

Anyone ever do drunken dirty adlibs? That's some funny shit right there. Haven't done that for a loooong time. Like high school.

Lol. maybe that would help.


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## clark (Aug 23, 2020)

Most of the posts above deal with stylistics or writing skills or speaking consistency of characters or mechanical exercises to improve targeted deficiencies. All fine and good, all part and parcel of accepting the home truth that writing well is hard damned work. The sub-text of many of the posts, though, seems to be that writers can teach themselves a particular style. 

That one, I do wonder about. In the ancient world two broad styles were mentioned, both pertaining to ORATORY. First was the style of Cicero--flamboyant, richly descriptive and metaphorical, anecdotal, structured and focused. Second was the style of Seneca--stark, intense, developmental and logical, eminently rational. Parallels in established American fiction might be Faulkner as Ciceronian, Hemingway as Senecan.

This kind of style is so engrained in the work of these two authors, that if most readers were handed an unknown page 'blind', they would have no difficulty identifying the writer. Now, sweeping a very wide brush here, it seems to me most writers will lean towards Cicero or Seneca as they _feel _their way through their own evolution. And I guess my point is, as your proclivities as a creative writer start to emerge, let them emerge organically from within you, and if over time you feel most comfortable and original and easy in, say, the Ciceronian style, cultivate that and give it your unique stamp RATHER than trying to 'teach' yourself the Senecan style, which simply may not work for you.

Having said all that, a Ciceronian fiction writer would still be perfectly capable of putting the Senecan style in the mouth of a character who _required that._​


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## Taylor (Aug 23, 2020)

Theglasshouse said:


> Here's where my weaknesses lie. Imagery is a big weakness. So much I plan on ordering two-four books tops on dealing with the topic.
> 
> Most of my stories are dialogue driven. I can write dialogue with much fewer flaws or mistakes.



The book should be interesting.  I know you talked about using Google Maps to visualize settings.  How is that working?

I was also thinking of Youtube for you. Just try searching for a landmark, or a famous article well like the one on the crown.    And also on Netflix, there are architecture shows like Grand Designs and other real estate shows like Selling Sunset.  I think some of the TV network realestate shows are good to like Million Dollar Lisiting Los Angeles.  I use that one a lot.

I am a HUGE fan of dialogue, so I likely would enjoy your stories.  Have you posted any here to read?


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## Theglasshouse (Aug 23, 2020)

I agree with you clark. In the epoch of Cicero imitation was popular. Maybe writing by instinct is a matter of practice. I do know I should be reading to at least get an idea on how writers started their stories. I think that is what I can take and learn from other writers. Thank you for your opinion.

Thanks Taylor. I will try to revise a current story I wrote. It needs more images and description of the place I will set it in. I haven't written a new work yet using Google Maps by researching a landmark, but I will this afternoon. I want to see if I can improve.

Using youtube to help me describe the landmark sounds like an excellent idea. I will look for those TV shows. If I don't find them I will use my cable service to look for alternatives of what would be real estate shows.

I could post a story. I've worked on it. I sent that to some markets. It got critiqued here. I could send by pm on request. I've been hesitant to post it since it's been seen by others in the workshop. It's a story that I've posted before, but if your interested I could pm it. People seemed to like it, but one writer mentioned the style was weak according to someone that read it. Which is why I've been trying to improve my style in the first place. It has a lot of dialogue and very little description. It's science fiction. But it relies on the plot in a lot of movies to create the central conflict of the story.  I could post in the workshop in a different section (science fiction and fantasy workshop).  First I need to use your advice to see if I need to be ordering those books on how to write images for stories.

That's the story that I am most proud off besides my other stories that got published. Thanks for the advice. It's sounds to me that it is excellent advice I could try out to see if my writing of setting improves.


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## indianroads (Aug 24, 2020)

Theglasshouse said:


> [...]Imagery is a big weakness. So much I plan on ordering two-four books tops on dealing with the topic.[...]



We each learn best by different methods - I'm a doer NOT a studier. With that in mind, allow me to add my exercise that helps me write imagery:

I ride a motorcycle - but this can be done while you hike, walk around town, visit bars/restaurants, or drive in your car.

Get into the moment wherever you are. Describe the scene to yourself, but pay attention to the fine details. What does the air feel like? What do you smell? If there are people around, what are they doing? What sounds do you hear? Describe the buildings, the street or path - inside, what's on the floor? Does it remind you of any place you've been before. Does an older downtown remind you of Disneyland? Mostly - what does the environment FEEL like? What emotions does it invoke? Listen... what do you hear?

Go and sit on a beach, or in the forest. Visit a park, a busy city. Experience as many places as you can, and do this exercise.

As I said though - this works for me and may not for you.


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## Taylor (Aug 24, 2020)

Theglasshouse said:


> I agree with you clark. In the epoch of Cicero imitation was popular. Maybe writing by instinct is a matter of practice. I do know I should be reading to at least get an idea on how writers started their stories. I think that is what I can take and learn from other writers. Thank you for your opinion.
> 
> Thanks Taylor. I will try to revise a current story I wrote. It needs more images and description of the place I will set it in. I haven't written a new work yet using Google Maps by researching a landmark, but I will this afternoon. I want to see if I can improve.
> 
> ...



Yes, please PM your story or tell me where I can find it on the forum.

Not sure what to say about the books.  I usually try to resolve things without investing.  But if money is not an issue, then I guess it can't hurt.


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## Theglasshouse (Aug 24, 2020)

indianroads said:


> We each learn best by different methods - I'm a doer a studier. With that in mind, allow me to add my exercise that helps me write imagery:
> 
> I ride a motorcycle - but this can be done while you hike, walk around town, visit bars/restaurants, or drive in your car.
> 
> ...


Even though I haven't posted anything new. I think Taylor's strategies are going to work. Thanks indianroads for trying to teach me how to do this. This isn't the first time you have volunteered to teach me.

I wrote 800 words yesterday. I think 300-400 words were description. I think yesterday was when I made the breakthrough in the sense that I was able to describe but it was fly on the wall pov. I didn't include any narration. My main worry is I might need to use a pov character earlier in the scene and that I need the character to interact with the setting which is narration in essence. Most college guides explain it badly because it's not related to fiction. Narration is a process by which something can be done and more. For example a train and how to feed the engine wood to fuel it.

I did everything Taylor suggested. It's working so far. I wish I could travel from one place to the other. I could walk, but I'd rather walk with someone in the family. My mother suffers from some bone problems. My oldest brother is always working while my youngest brother is a diplomat who lives in Switzerland. My oldest brother gets home by 9:00 p.m. every day. He barely has time to talk with me except on weekends. My dad doesn't really walk outside. All he does is watch the news and run errands when busy. My family may be retired. We live off a comfortable pension which is from my dad's work. The problem is my dad is the sort of dad that will not want to walk outside if it helps me to write something. My mother is afraid if I go alone. My brother can do this on the weekend. He's very selfless.

I got the setting finally written. I used articles to lead me to the places on youtube. I used googlemaps. Google earth doesn't seem to have many images even though I used the landmark. By using a landmark you can find tons of information and pictures.

It's very rare that I leave my own house. What I find when I leave my house is a park and I live in a neighborhood. I do live in a city. But to get to the commercial zone I need to drive by car which isn't walking distance. There's a supermarket even though I don't want to describe that. It's prosaic.

Again I will use a travel guide to see which commercial zones I can find on youtube just in case I want to describe some that might be difficult such as a movie theater which is not close by. Thanks everyone for wanting to help me. I found the landmark advice to be very useful since there are videos on landmarks on youtube.

I think I will pick up the best book on imagery of the bunch I saw. 

Any tips on how to narrate fictionally and how to avoid fly on the wall? I know it's a process. So I need to have a person doing something in the story while the setting is being explored and the scene where people talk has them doing something.

IMO, I need the event and the incident to be closely related to avoid fly on the wall and to achieve a deeper pov. Thanks for everyone who has given their advice given so far.


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