# Would a smart villain for this trap, or am I being too picky?



## ironpony (Dec 29, 2015)

Sorry I mean to write would a smart villain FALL for the trap, but it was too late to correct it.  I am writing a story, with another writer, but we had a disagreement on how the villain is caught in the end. Mainly the villain has a mole in the police department. After the honest cops find this out they then get their hands on the moles burner cell phone, and use it to text the villain, tricking him into going to incriminating himself, not only over text messages, but also so they can get him to meet the mole at a certain place, and time, so they can find out who he is, and then arrest him, since they are not sure who he is at this point.

This was my co-writer's idea, but I didn't buy this. If the villain was so smart to get away with his crimes for the story up to this point, would he really fall for a text message, without a voice confirmation? Even though it's from his police mole, how does he know that other police are not on the other side of the line, without a voice confirmation, since anyone can type texts. But the co-writer says this is the best way to trap him with the means they have, so I was wondering what others thought, and if it sounds plausible? Does it make the villain seem stupid? Perhaps if the villain was in communication with the mole, constantly, but there is more than a few hour wait for the villain to receive the next text message, since the other cops kill the mole in a fight, then find out about the phone, etc.

It's this few hour wait, which is longer than usual, that I thought the villain would get too suspicious and want a voice confirmation or something before risking possibly incriminating himself. What do you think?





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## popsprocket (Dec 29, 2015)

I doubt anyone intelligent would incriminate themselves with text messages, even on a burner, because those phones are pretty hard evidence if you're caught with one.

I would suppose that the villain and the mole communicated primarily with a code of some sort, and if your cops are able to continue sending messages that follow the same pattern then I don't see why the villain would particularly suspect he was being set up any more than he might suspect it on another occasion.


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## ironpony (Dec 29, 2015)

Oh okay.  Well the cops would have to decipher the code, and know how to talk in it at moment's notice, if it's possible to learn a code in such a short amount of time.  By this time the crooked cop is dead, so they only have a short amount of time before it hits the news and the villains find out.  So the cops have to make the villain believe that the crooked cop is still alive till then, if possible.


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## Joe_Bassett (Dec 29, 2015)

Maybe they can text the bad guy with a good enough excuse for the delay.  They could, as the mole, say that they were held up by a meeting, or a conversation with a co-worker.  Then if asked for voice confirmation, they could say that they're in a bad place to do that, maybe too risky, and maybe mention they found out something important but they want to talk in person cos it'll be risky over the phone.
Yeah, those coincidences are suspicious, but they're also likely to happen.  Maybe it would seem coincidental enough for the villain to dismiss it.  Just an idea...


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## popsprocket (Dec 30, 2015)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay.  Well the cops would have to decipher the code, and know how to talk in it at moment's notice, if it's possible to learn a code in such a short amount of time.  By this time the crooked cop is dead, so they only have a short amount of time before it hits the news and the villains find out.  So the cops have to make the villain believe that the crooked cop is still alive till then, if possible.



It doesn't have to be a complex code. A drug dealer might simply subsitute the word 'cocaine' for something benign, like 'mugs'.

"Hey man I just got some new mugs in, want to buy some?"


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## ironpony (Dec 30, 2015)

Okay thanks.  Basically the crooks are guilty of a kidnapping, and they have been making ransom videos, and airing them online for the public to see.  The videos are untraceable of course.  The cops already have a suspect but they do not know everyone in the gang.  They have tailed the suspect around and surveyed him but the suspect is just going out with family and friends and not doing anything incriminating or out of the ordinary.

Another way for the cops to catch the gang and find the kidnap victim is that they could make their own ransom video, where they say they are going to release the hostage and that the kidnapping is off or something like that.  Something that will anger and frustrate the kidnappers.  This causes the kidnappers to want to make another video and air it, saying that the someone is lying and impersonating them and they will do know such thing as release the hostage and giving up.

So the cops know that the kidnappers will get together to air another video and make it untraceable, online, so they follow the suspect they already have cause they are hoping he will meet up with the rest of the gang to make the rebuttal video, which he does.  They then can catch the gang in act.

Would this be a smarter, more plausible method of catching them compared to the cellphone text thing?  My writing partner says it's way too complicated with more of a chance of it not working in comparison, but what do you think?


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## popsprocket (Dec 30, 2015)

You're complicating it.

Why would the kidnappers respond to a copycat video at all? 

Much more plausible for the cops to tail the guy until he goes to the hostage location.

But, at the same time, if this guy is as intelligent as you seem to say then it sounds like he's the type of person who'd recognise if he were being surveilled.


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## ironpony (Dec 30, 2015)

Why wouldn't they respond to a copycat video though?  If the copycat video is making them look bad and discrediting their threats to the public, then they would want to make a rebuttal video to prove to the public, that someone is impersonating them, and not to listen to the impersonators.  The kidnappers still want their threat to be taken seriously, wouldn't they?

As far as tailing the guy to the hostage location, the guy is never going there.  That's the point, they have to come up with something else to get him to go there.


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## popsprocket (Dec 30, 2015)

Why _would_ they respond?

Any copycat video is very obviously bait.

Assuming that I'm a psychopath, someone makes a copycat video attempting to discredit me, I simply kill my hostages and make good on my original threats to prove that I wasn't lying.


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## ironpony (Dec 30, 2015)

Oh okay.  Well as far as they know, some 'amateur' made a copycat video to impersonate them and discredit them.  So they think that they are rebutting against some amateur that the public is believing, and not the police.  Plus if they kill the hostage then they get no pay, so they can't do that.

As far as following the one guy back to the location though, I need all the gang to be at the same place at the same time, and just following one guy, hoping that he will go to a place that ALL of the rest of them will be there, is just too easy, at least it seems to me.  I mean how do the police know that he will meet with everyone as oppose to just a couple of them?  The police need a plan to draw them all out.


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## dale (Dec 30, 2015)

you know what? if you spent the same amount of time on your own work as you do asking inane questions?
you'd probably come to the realization that every answer you get here are just as inane as your questions. 
would you please just write your damn book? it doesn't matter what other people think about the questions
you are asking. if you write fiction? your story is your story. writers can help you with presenting your story. 
i could critique a story based on clarity, typos, grammar, etc. hell...writers can do more than that for you. but
it's like you don't trust yourself whatsoever with ANYTHING. you HAVE to trust yourself to make your writing work. 
there's no way out of it. you have to trust yourself.


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## ironpony (Dec 30, 2015)

Okay thanks.  It's just I have several options within options of what the characters would do, but I am not sure what to pick a lot of the time.  When you write your own stories, how do you know which character options are the best, since they could do several things.  I can pick one, it's just a matter of how to pick.


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## Kyle R (Dec 30, 2015)

I go with whichever option excites me the most.

When it really comes down to it, fiction is primarily a form of entertainment. So I say: choose the option that you believe is the most entertaining.

Be confident. Have fun with your story. Choose a creative path and stomp down it like you own the whole damn place.

Don't sweat the small stuff too much. Especially if you want to be a career writer or screenwriter. You have to learn to produce, produce, produce. To not worry away at a single story, but to churn out one after another. Write, write, write!

If there's one thing I've learned over the years, it's this: perfection is the enemy of progress. :encouragement:


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## dale (Dec 30, 2015)

Kyle R said:


> I go with whichever option excites me the most.
> 
> When it really comes down to it, fiction is primarily a form of entertainment. So I say: choose the option that you believe is the most entertaining.
> 
> ...



oh god....you marry one hot chick and all the sudden you think you know everything. ha ha


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## ironpony (Dec 30, 2015)

Well as far as deciding which method of trapping the villains is the most exciting for me, I would have to say the fake video one.  It's more of a personal attack on the villain's ego, where as the cell phone texting trap, is just being fooled by a technicality, but not a personal attack, so to speak.  But some are saying that the cell phone text is more likely to work.

I guess it depends on what's more exciting for a the reader, a more personal attack vs. a more plausible attack.


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## Riis Marshall (Dec 30, 2015)

Hello Iron

Villains by definition aren't too clever: they fall for really stupid traps all the time.

This is how we know they're stupid villains; we know nothing about the truly clever villains because they don't get caught.

The perfect crime has been committed many, many times. Because these were perfect we never learned about them.

All the best with your writing.

Warmest regards
Riis


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## ironpony (Dec 30, 2015)

Okay thanks.  Do you think it comess off as inconsistent though?  The villain is able to commit crimes and murders for months and get away with them, but then is able to be caught out of foolishness, after months of being a mastermind though, without really anything to change him to being stupid now?


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## bazz cargo (Dec 30, 2015)

There is also the 'personality' to consider. Arrogance has contempt for a handmaiden. A lot of mistakes are made with these two attitudes.

Good luck


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## Bishop (Dec 30, 2015)

I really doubt any criminal with half a brain talks explicitly about their activities in texting, seeing as texts can legally be pulled from the cell carrier and used as evidence in court against him/her.


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## Kyle R (Dec 30, 2015)

ironpony said:


> Well as far as deciding which method of trapping the villains is the most exciting for me, I would have to say the fake video one.



Then I say, go for it.

Look, people will always tell you to write things differently. Every time you ask for advice, you're going to get a plethora of opinions (many contradictory).

You'll always have people telling you to fix things. Always have people pointing out things that are "wrong" or "would never happen." Blah, blah, blah. If you give them the chance, everybody'll be a critic.

Eventually you have to stop asking for opinions and follow your own instincts. That's the only way you'll find your vision, your voice, your style, et cetera. By trusting yourself and going with what _you_ want to write.

Otherwise, you're just letting everyone else tell you what to do—which would simply make you a puppet. And it's _so_ much better to pull your own strings.

So, my advice? Stop asking for advice, approval, or consensus, and just . . . write what you want to write.

Fall down. Scrape your knees. Dust yourself off. Get back up. Make mistakes. Learn from them. Do it again and again, and again. :encouragement:


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## patskywriter (Dec 30, 2015)

You’ve arrived at the fun part—the planning of your story line. Why on earth are you asking us what your characters should or shouldn’t do? You have all the time you need: Choose different prospective scenarios and write them out. See where they take you, and then choose the one that really grabs you. I don’t know why, but you’re acting as if one decision will ruin your story! Take the reins and enjoy the ride.


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## ironpony (Dec 30, 2015)

Well I want to pick my own, but I am told things like no criminal with half a brain would use texting, so I just want to pick a method that works.



Bishop said:


> I really doubt any criminal with half a brain talks explicitly about their activities in texting, seeing as texts can legally be pulled from the cell carrier and used as evidence in court against him/her.



But criminals talk to each other about their crimes on cell phones in stories, if it's an emergency, so how is texting worse than talking where your voice can be recorded? Plus since they crooks are using burner phones, can you pull a text from a burner phone?  Since I thought that point of a burner was that it was not traceable easily.  Sure texts can be pulled, but voices can be recorded, so which is worse?  

I want to pick my own which is the texting or the false video, but I am told that the criminals look stupid in each so I am not sure how to else to get them since these are the only two methods they have based on their resources and what they know about them.  I think before I come up with anything I need to figure out how write a villain so he can fail, without the reader thinking he is stupid.  Cause so far every outline I come up with makes him look stupid in the end for being fooled into getting caught.

Is their any method of writing to go about it, where the reader will not think he is stupid?

As far as saying I should keep writing and learn from my mistakes, how can I learn what works and what does not if I do not ask for other's opinions on it though?


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## DaBlaRR (Dec 30, 2015)

Let me get this straight. Your villain is so smart, that he won't fall for the cellphone trap, but he is however so sensitive that his feelings get hurt when someone makes a copy cat video? If I was this superior villain. Not only would I NOT communicate via text message, I wouldn't give two shits about copy cats. So honestly I think both scenarios, for lack of a better word, suck. 

Also, you tend to complicate things WAY too much and overthink your scenarios. Simplicity, in my opinion, is the key.


EDIT: 
As far as not making your villain look stupid. Why would he look stupid. My villain is really smart too. But his downfall was his ego and over confidence... He got trapped and beat at his own game. Didn't make him stupid. It only shows that he is human and CAN make detrimental mistakes.


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## ironpony (Dec 30, 2015)

Okay thanks.  How do I overthink the scenarios exactly?  I think of the methods of what can be used to bust him, and that's it.  It's not like I try to pile stuff on, so I am confused.  Well the villain is the ego type so I thought that the copycat video would appeal to his egotistical flaw and make him want to rebut, so his criminal notoriety is not used against him and tarnished.  I was told that before that the police should attack his flaw, so that is the way I thought of doing it.  Plus wouldn't the villain still want his ransom payed in which case, he has to make another video in order to still get people to listen to him and hopefully be payed up?  Why would the villain let a copycat ruin everything?  RUIN is the key word there.  Why would the villain let a copycat RUIN everything?  Why would he be okay with that?

Plus you said that a villain is detrimental at making mistakes.  If that is the case, then why wouldn't the video work if the villain is allowed to make a detrimental mistake?

What would be a simple way of getting him?  If the videos and text messages are too complicated, then what would be a much more simple method for the police to use that would work?

Well there are other ways.  What if the villains want their ransom payed up but the government refuses to pay, saying that the U.S. does not negotiate with terrorists, so legally they can't pay.  Then a rich citizen who has the money decides that he will pay.  He tells the media that he does not want to see an innocent person be killed, and he will pay the kidnappers with his own money, since he can afford to.

He makes arrangements with the kidnapper to meet, in a way, in which he was not followed by police.  Or so the kidnappers think.  Then when the kidnappers go meet him to collect, they find that it was a trap and the police are there.  Would this work better?

Or the cops could fake the voice of the dead crooked cop, if that's technologically possible.  That way, when the villains get the call from the crooked cop to meet somewhere cause it's an emergency, they will actually hear the crooked cop's voice, and believe it, even though it's faked.  The only think with that is, we are now headed into possibly far fetched territory since it's difficult to fake a dead person's voice, if not impossible.

If not, what would be the best way to fool this type of villain into being caught, especially since the police need to catch all of them for the ending I want, and they do not know who most of them are.


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## Kyle R (Dec 30, 2015)

ironpony said:


> As far as saying I should keep writing and learn from my mistakes, how can I learn what works and what does not if I do not ask for other's opinions on it though?



For me, learning what works and what doesn't work comes down to one simple formula: first, _keep writing_ new stories.

Next, consider any reader responses on my _completed_ stories.

Finally, apply anything I've learned from those reader responses to my _future_ stories.

Rinse and repeat.

That's just how I like to approach it, though. Do whatever floats your boat. :encouragement:


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## ironpony (Dec 31, 2015)

Okay thanks.  When it comes to me being too complicated in my writing, I was wondering where I tend to make things complicated cause it's not the first time I was told that.

Like in the example, where I said that the cops make a fake video to ruin the villains plan, then the villains must make a rebuttal ransom video to be taken seriously again, with the police hoping that this will get the crooks to meet up to make it, in order to get them to incriminate themselves, that whole thing should take about no more than 10 pages tops, and should be easy to tell.

I have seen stories with far more complicated plot twists, that can take much longer amounts of time that have much bigger domino effects, and subplots that go along with it.  I am surprised to hear that I am complicated, like I am writing a mindblowing mystery with lots of twists or something.  I don't see how a plan that should take 10 pages is pushing it, unless I am looking at it the wrong way?  Cause I have been told I make things complicated by others, as well.


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## Ultraroel (Dec 31, 2015)

Edit: I didn't read good enough:


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## DaBlaRR (Dec 31, 2015)

To be honest with you Iron.

You ask a lot of questions which is completely cool and all... God knows I have a million of my own for my own writing...

But the fact that you pretty much counter most of the advice you get, tells me that you are waiting for someone to tell you what you want to hear. You always go back to your original idea and tell people who you are asking to advise on it why it makes the most sense. Not saying going back to your original idea is all bad... but if you seek advice, absorb it. But maybe that's just me.


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## T.S.Bowman (Dec 31, 2015)

DaBlaRR said:


> To be honest with you Iron.
> 
> You ask a lot of questions which is completely cool and all... God knows I have a million of my own for my own writing...
> 
> But the fact that you pretty much counter most of the advice you get, tells me that you are waiting for someone to tell you what you want to hear. You always go back to your original idea and tell people who you are asking to advise on it why it makes the most sense. Not saying going back to your original idea is all bad... but if you seek advice, absorb it. But maybe that's just me.



I have pointed this out as well. It doesn't seem to have helped.

@ironpony - You asked how what it is that makes us feel you over think or make things overly complicated....

Just take a good, long, critical look at some of the posts you have written over the past few months in which you try to explain what happens in one of your stories. You will see an awful lot of yourself saying things along the lines of "Well this happens, but then this happens too but someone said this doesn't make sense but this has to happen for that but should I have my character do this instead....."

No...any villain who is as smart as you want yours to be is not going to fall for the "copy cat video." As said before...he simply wouldn't care. If he is willing to kill people, he won't give a rat's ass if someone else is killing someone. Would he communicate with another bad guy/gang member via text message? Sure. Would he put anything incriminating in text? No. Why not? Because, while a cell phone convo can be HEARD over airwaves and could be spoken in a code, a text message is physical evidence that can be printed out. If he was dumb enough to not text in a code even more complicated the the one on the phone, then you are going to lose your audience. The guy will have shown himself to be a fool rather than the intelligent, clever fella you want to portray him to be. Then, there goes your suspension of disbelief and your audience goes with it.

It seems to me that, instead of writing a serious story, you almost seem to be wanting to write an episode of a new version of the Keystone Cops. Except those guys never did anything intelligent.


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## ironpony (Dec 31, 2015)

T.S.Bowman said:


> I have pointed this out as well. It doesn't seem to have helped.
> 
> @ironpony - You asked how what it is that makes us feel you over think or make things overly complicated....
> 
> ...



Okay thanks.  You said that a text message is physical evidence that can be PRINTED OUT.  But I thought that a voice conversation can be RECORDED, and you actually hear the VOICE.  Is that not more incriminating?  I thought that a voice recording can go a huge way, in terms of physical evidence.  How is that not physical evidence, in our legal system?  Cops in real life, tap phones and record conversations and that can be used.  In my research I have never once heard a cop say, "we better make sure to get text messages because voice recordings cannot be used as physical evidence".

Plus in my research, a voice recording counts as physical evidence, I read, so I guess I am not seeing the distinction here.

Is it possible for an intelligent villain to be fooled and caught in a legal way though?  Like do the police have to walk up to him and shoot him in the head, cause he was so smart that there was no other way, or can he be caught with legal evidence?

Or perhaps my problem is, is that the villain is too smart and I need to make him more human and more catchable.  Is their a way I can to do this?  Is it possible for him to commit crimes for months and get away with it, but then be caught later?

Well perhaps I can take a different approach to my writing.  I was told before on here to let my characters make the decisions for me, and take me for a ride, rather than the other way around, so those character decisions are less complicated.

I have written a few outlines like that, but I find them to be much more anticlimatic, because the characters make decisions that build towards a climax that is underwhelming.  If I make all the characters really smart, all the way to the end, no one is put in any real danger, cause everyone is smart enough to avoid that and they all keep their distance from each other more, as a result.  Plus I find that they are much more predictable too, unless I am come up with surprises in advance.   If I do not come up with the surprises first, and let the characters make the decisions for me, then those surprises never happen, and as a result you get a much more predictable outcome.  Is it possible to avoid a predictable anticlimax, if all the characters make smart decisions throughout, and therefore, not near as much danger or harm happens as a result?

Plus I do not understand why the villain would not care about the copycat video.  You said you he would not give a rats ass if the copycat video ruined his crime, but you did not say why at all.  This is why I find a lot of advice given to me, difficult to use, cause I do not know WHY my characters are making those decisions, since everything about them says that they wouldn't.  In order to take the advice, I need a WHY?  All you said was that he wouldn't care, but you did not say WHY, since his crimes that worked for become RUINED as a result.  WHY?

I want to take the advice, but if you are telling that a character should do something that completely goes against his character, I feel like have to know why, otherwise I have no idea what I am writing and what to do next as a result.  I wouldn't know what to do with the rest of the story, since a character has now made a decision that I do not know why he made it, and therefore, I do not know what to do for the rest.  I want to make the advice, but can anyone tell me WHY he would do that and not care about his plans being ruined?


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## DaBlaRR (Dec 31, 2015)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  You said that a text message is physical evidence that can be PRINTED OUT.  But I thought that a voice conversation can be RECORDED, and you actually hear the VOICE.  Is that not more incriminating?  I thought that a voice recording can go a huge way, in terms of physical evidence.  How is that not physical evidence, in our legal system?  Cops in real life, tap phones and record conversations and that can be used.  In my research I have never once heard a cop say, "we better make sure to get text messages because voice recordings cannot be used as physical evidence".
> 
> *
> It's just easier to get text messages to use as evidence. Recordings, like you said, their phone would have to be tapped. So there are many extra steps in that process. Texts would be easier to obtain and a lot of the time recoverable. *
> ...


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## ironpony (Dec 31, 2015)

Okay thanks.  This is why I thought the text messaging was a bad idea, for the villain to incriminate himself, but my co-writer thought it was better than the video idea cause it's less complicated.  But when it comes to the villain incriminating himself, I bought him falling for texts without a voice confirmation LESS than I bought the video.

I do not mean to imply that my villain is superhuman.  In fact most of the story is him trying to stay one step ahead, in a desperate way, so even though he accomplishes that for a few months, it's by a narrow margin.  So I never meant to imply he was superhuman, I just meant he didn't get caught for months.  Hannibal went on committing crimes for months as well, but still got caught, so I thought my villain could do the same thing .

Well the reason why a copycat would ruin his video in this... sorry for not explaining it well enough before, my fault.  If someone makes a ransom video, posing as him, with a similar looking mask, and voice scrambler device, and the video is broadcasted, the public will think it's the same person.  The people who are paying the ransom will believe that it's the same person, and if they are told to do something else, other than what the real villain wants, the people will act on that information, cause they think that the copycat is him.

This is bad for the villain cause he wants the people he is trying to extort, to listen to him, and follow his orders for the extortion to work.  He does not want them following the orders of someone impersonating him, who is steering them away.

So he feels he has to make another extortion video and send it to them, so they know that the other person was a copycat, and threaten them, not to listen to the copycat.  This is why he believes his plans will be ruined, cause the copycat, is steering the people he wants to extort, away from him.

The police knows he will care about this, and therefore, they know he will make another video, and they will survey him doing it, to get evidence on him, and catch him in the act.  This is why they set up the copycat video plan, in the first place, to emotionally appeal to his flaw, and make him do something incriminating to catch him with.  Since they have been following the suspect around for days and he's not doing anything incriminating, and seems to be living a normal life, the police feel they might as well try something like that, before it's too late.

Also I understand how the police have to get a court order to tap a phone.  But if the police already have the cellphone and someone calls, can they just hit the record button that already comes with the cellphone to to record the conversation, or do you need a court order for that?  It's not the same as a wire tap, but since cell's already come with the record feature, is a court order necessary in that case?


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## dale (Dec 31, 2015)

ironpony said:


> but my co-writer thought



hold on...is your so called "beta-reader" actually your co-writer?


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## DaBlaRR (Dec 31, 2015)

...on a different note. Dale I dig your bluntness.


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## Phil Istine (Dec 31, 2015)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  Do you think it comess off as inconsistent though?  The villain is able to commit crimes and murders for months and get away with them, but then is able to be caught out of foolishness, after months of being a mastermind though, without really anything to change him to being stupid now?



Not inconsistent at all.  That old cliché, "climbing mountains but tripping over molehills," exists for a reason.  It's because it aptly describes a part of humanity.


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## patskywriter (Jan 1, 2016)

dale said:


> hold on...is your so called "beta-reader" actually your co-writer?



At this point, aren't we all?  :cookie:


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## T.S.Bowman (Jan 1, 2016)

patskywriter said:


> At this point, aren't we all?  :cookie:



Heaven help us I think we are.

@ironpony - You said you want me to tell you WHY he wouldn't care that someone else did a copycat (which, by the way implies a crime done in the same way) sand killed the hostage. Telling you why he wouldn't isn't my job. You telling me WHY he would care is your jib. It's your story and your villain. You have to convince me, the reader, that a guy who has killed many times before is going to care if someone is  copying his work. Unless the copycat kidnaps the identical twin sibling of the person your villain kidnaps (at the same time, no less) I can't see why your villain would give a rip.

Yes, phone calls can be recorded and the transcripts printed out. However, for that to happen, there must be warrants and all kinds of other legal hurdles jumped before it can happen. And I still would point out that if your criminal is half as smart as you imply, then he won't SPEAK anything incriminating knowing that a cell phone conversation can, indeed, be recorded.

Also, when you said you were advised to just let the characters make the Decisions  but when  you did a couple of OUTLINES of that and then wrote the character didn't make the right decisions (not exciting enough) you pretty much missed the whole damn point of the advice.

It sounds to me as if you are trying VERY hard to write the next Hollywood Blockbuster and are getting yourself stuck in the muck in the process.


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## dale (Jan 1, 2016)

patskywriter said:


> At this point, aren't we all?  :cookie:



oh no. because that changes things completely. if his "beta-reader" is his "co-writer"? it becomes a situation
of competing egos, and not actually "critique". it becomes a kind of wrestling match over "who will tell the story".
a much different scenario than a "beta-reader" type situation.


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## ironpony (Jan 1, 2016)

No my co-writer and the beta readers are not the same person, sorry for the confusion.  I got opinions from all of them.



T.S.Bowman said:


> Heaven help us I think we are.
> 
> @ironpony - You said you want me to tell you WHY he wouldn't care that someone else did a copycat (which, by the way implies a crime done in the same way) sand killed the hostage. Telling you why he wouldn't isn't my job. You telling me WHY he would care is your jib. It's your story and your villain. You have to convince me, the reader, that a guy who has killed many times before is going to care if someone is  copying his work. Unless the copycat kidnaps the identical twin sibling of the person your villain kidnaps (at the same time, no less) I can't see why your villain would give a rip.
> 
> Yes, phone calls can be recorded and the transcripts printed out. However, for that to happen, there must be warrants and all kinds of other legal hurdles jumped before it can happen. And I still would point out that if your criminal is half as smart as you imply, then he won't SPEAK anything incriminating knowing that a cell phone conversation can, indeed, be recorded.



Okay thanks.  What point did I miss about letting the characters make the decision for me?

Also what does kidnapping an identical twin have to with the police's plan working?  I do not understand what an identical twin has to do with it.  Are you saying that the people that are being extorted will not believe the copycat, if the copycat, cannot produce the hostage?  It wouldn't matter cause the people being extorted do not have time to ask the copycat to produce the hostage, to see if the copycat is real.  They will assume it's the same person and act on his demands, cause they are on the clock.  This is why the villain has to make another video, to make them believe they are being mislead by a copycat.  Unless you mean something else entirely.  What does a twin sibling have to do with it?  I want to understand how my villain is to behave, but you now you an identical twin is thrown in here, without an explanation as to WHY?  WHY will he only care about a copycat if there is a twin now?  I understand it's not your job to explain why.  That's okay.  It's my job .  But I explained the why already in the previous explanation, and no twin sibling is needed for that reason for the villain to care.

If communicating by phone is a bad idea, how should the villain communicate with his accomplices?  Should he use email only, but emails can be used by the police as well?  What means of communication should he use when making contact with his accomplices?  What if he called his accomplices and agreed to meet in person.  They would then meet in person and talk, in a public place.  However, with parabolic microphones, the police can record a conversation from far away.  Would the accomplices agree to meet and talk in person, if their voices can be recorded from far away?  Even in a private house, you can still record with a parabolic mic, so would they do that?

But in my situation they don't have time meet up, and have to discuss the matters at hand right away in their situations.

Plus I think maybe I need to make the crook less smart.  I seemed to have given the impression that he is TOO smart, so why not just dumb him down a little?  Why is everyone saying he is too smart to do this... to smart to do that, etc. when perhaps the solution should be to make him less smart to begin with?  Like for example in Breaking Bad, Walter White is constantly talking about criminal activity over the phone, with his criminal associates.  Like there was one episode where they talked about a production shortage in his drug product, and he is talking about that over the phone.   There is also another episode, where the police are going to arrest one of his associates, so Walt calls him to warn him to get out of town, knowing full well, that the man is under investigation.  Later on in the show, even Walter's own conversation is being recorded yet he still talked on the phone.

The movie The Departed did this as well, with criminals constantly talking over the phone about their activity, and in the end, it turns out it was recorded.

Why don't I just make my villain about as intelligent as those villains, rather than having him be super-smart?  Could I just do that?


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## Kyle R (Jan 1, 2016)

This is why you won't see me discussing my works in progress online—at least not these days. Because I consider it a waste of time. It just opens the door for everyone to butt in with their contradictory opinions. It invites doubt and scrutiny. It tempts the writer to change things and rewrite. And it offers no end in sight.

Keep asking for advice on a story, and someone new will always come along and point out something else that they feel should be changed.

So what are you still asking us for? We're not going to finish your story for you. We're just going to keep throwing more of our own opinions at you, about this, about that, about whatever. And all this time you spend talking back and forth is time lost—time you could've spent on your work.

That's why I say: close the damn door and write. Finish your story. Publish it, or don't. Start your next story. Put your head down, keep going, and stop worrying so much about what others have to say about your work.

If you want your story to rock, that comes down to you writing it. Period. Everything else is just procrastination. :grief:


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## Plasticweld (Jan 1, 2016)

Kyle R said:


> This is why you won't see me discussing my works in progress online—at least not these days. Because I consider it a waste of time. It just opens the door for everyone to butt in with their contradictory opinions. It invites doubt and scrutiny. It tempts the writer to change things and rewrite. And it offers no end in sight.
> 
> Keep asking for advice on a story, and someone new will always come along and point out something else that they feel should be changed.
> 
> ...




You do realize that after being here 8 months IronPony has started 34 threads,  and has 244 posts, all asking questions he has never yet posted even a single short story or entered a LM here.  I think this is just a test to see if he can get the members  here to write a story for him and then post it as his own.  It would make a great plot line for a story anyway, Phantom author picks the brains of the best and the brightest for the latest best seller, or it could be another version of "Chose Your Own Adventure"

Then again I could be completely wrong!


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## dale (Jan 1, 2016)

Plasticweld said:


> You do realize that after being here 8 months IronPony has started 34 threads,  and has 244 posts, all asking questions he has never yet posted even a single short story or entered a LM here.  I think this is just a test to see if he can get the members  here to write a story for him and then post it as his own.  It would make a great plot line for a story anyway, Phantom author picks the brains of the best and the brightest for the latest best seller, or it could be another version of "Chose Your Own Adventure"
> 
> Then again I could be completely wrong!



he is a pony of iron. and ponies of iron are generally unpredictable. so who knows what his true motives are?


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## T.S.Bowman (Jan 1, 2016)

Kyle R said:


> This is why you won't see me discussing my works in progress online—at least not these days. Because I consider it a waste of time. It just opens the door for everyone to butt in with their contradictory opinions. It invites doubt and scrutiny. It tempts the writer to change things and rewrite. And it offers no end in sight.
> 
> Keep asking for advice on a story, and someone new will always come along and point out something else that they feel should be changed.
> 
> ...



I am not suggesting he change anything. He can write his story in any way he chooses.

He asks his questions, he gets what he seeks, but then argues every point people make.

I personally think the story is much too convoluted and things need to be simplified. From what I have read in his descriptions of the story, I wouldn't buy into the villains motivations or actions. But that is just my own take on things.

He is free to do what he wishes with his story. Just like the rest of us.


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## ironpony (Jan 1, 2016)

Okay thanks.  I was told long before, not to finish the story until you have ironed out all the kinks.  But I could go with the version I have now, and just assume it makes sense the best it can.  I tried posting it before but the site will not allow PDF files, and when I try to copy and paste the story into here, the format is lost and scrambled.  That is why I haven't posted anything of it before.  Sorry.

As for the story being too complicated, I am still actually surprised people think that, as I have seen much more complicated stories, and I actually thought I was going for something simple.  The thing about thrillers set in modern times, though, is that if you commit a crime, a dozen consequences will come out of it, especially with today's technology.  So it's just I have to deal with the domino effect, if that's the complicated part.  But it's also a screenplay that is suppose to be as long as a feature length movie.

So with that kind of time length, don't I need a story with enough plot in it, to last that long?  If I simplify it to the way people are describing, it would probably only be 20 minutes.  So how do I come up with a plot where a crime happens without so many consequences that come out of it, but at the same time, have a enough story to last two hours?


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