# African American readers?



## Ditch (Feb 4, 2012)

Just curious, does anyone else target the African American readers or audience?


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## Olly Buckle (Feb 4, 2012)

Now I am curious, I wonder how they differ as a reader group? Are there sub groups of age or sex you target within the larger group? I genuinely believe that the black people in England who have grown up here have similar tastes to their white peers, it may not be true of first generation immigrants, but there can't be many of them in the African American population.


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## ppsage (Feb 4, 2012)

Olly Buckle said:


> Now I am curious, I wonder how they differ as a reader group? Are there sub groups of age or sex you target within the larger group? I genuinely believe that the black people in England who have grown up here have similar tastes to their white peers, it may not be true of first generation immigrants, but there can't be many of them in the African American population.




Go to a major library. Browse the story collection section. Report what you find. At my library you would find many anthologies of black writers. Same thing is true in the essay collection section(s.) Interested to hear if U. K. differs. In the U. S. I would say a tradition of black literature definitely exists. 'Black' themes definitely exist. Black marketing spins definitely exist in genre writing. Trying to judge _similar tastes_ might be a fool's errand, there is wide diversity in any literature.


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## Ditch (Feb 4, 2012)

There is a huge hunger for black literature in America. The brutality that the slaves endured and the prejudice that was rampant and "in your face" until really very recently makes for strong feelings. I participate in a black literature forum and the feelings run deep, the past is hard to forget but an undeniable part of their history. I wonder how I would have coped if I had been born black instead of brown in southeast Texas in 1955. I was the only and darkest face in my class and was ostracized, so I can relate to the feeling. But, back on track, there is a very strong and growing population of African Americans who want something to read that they can relate to.


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## Kyle R (Feb 4, 2012)

I visited a few local "Borders" book stores when they were closing down, and I noticed they each had a Black Literature (or "Ebony Literature" as it was titled) section.

I haven't read much of it myself so I can't say, but when I think of authors who tackle the heavy issues of the african american identity, and their historical roots, I immediately think of Toni Morrison.


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## Olly Buckle (Feb 5, 2012)

I may be completely out of touch, but I am unaware of a separate literature in this country. There was "Brick lane" which is placed in a well known Indian area of London, and my friend Andy wrote a book called "Shalom, Salamm", which is about a mixed marriage, but these books have a wider appeal. Maybe there simply is not a big enough audience to support a separate literature in our tiny country, or perhaps the different circumstance of racial diversity had an effect. Most British slaves were held in colonies and possessions, and used in sugar production, which had a massive death rate compared to tobacco production, so new slaves were continuously imported and a cultural tradition was not established. Racial diversity only started happening here (Outside a few small areas like Liverpool) in the 1950's-60's. I shall ask around among my non-white friends, most definitely curious now.


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## Baron (Feb 5, 2012)

Olly Buckle said:


> I may be completely out of touch, but I am unaware of a separate literature in this country. There was "Brick lane" which is placed in a well known Indian area of London, and my friend Andy wrote a book called "Shalom, Salamm", which is about a mixed marriage, but these books have a wider appeal. Maybe there simply is not a big enough audience to support a separate literature in our tiny country, or perhaps the different circumstance of racial diversity had an effect. Most British slaves were held in colonies and possessions, and used in sugar production, which had a massive death rate compared to tobacco production, so new slaves were continuously imported and a cultural tradition was not established. Racial diversity only started happening here (Outside a few small areas like Liverpool) in the 1950's-60's. I shall ask around among my non-white friends, most definitely curious now.


The British also abolished slavery in the 18th century, Olly, so there's been a little longer to adjust.


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## ppsage (Feb 5, 2012)

Baron said:


> The British also abolished slavery in the 18th century, Olly, so there's been a little longer to adjust.



Parliment's threat of abolition (which never came to pass before the insurrection, or for long after) was an important factor in bringing the southern colonies to declare independence.

After 1772 it was possible for a slave physically in the UK and owned by a British citizen to be freed by trial. Many British citizens held slaves in empire territory but not many ever did in the UK.

In 1807 trading slaves between empire states and from Africa became illegal. (Same year as U. S. as far as the importation into the country from abroad.)

In 1833 slavery became illegal throughout the empire. 

There's been a little longer for populations living in the UK to adjust, and obviously much less to adjust from for those actually on the sacred soil of the sceptured isle but, where it was profitable, legal slavery existed under British political jurisdiction well into the nineteenth century and I bet many of those places have a black literature to prove it.

However, notwithstanding that absentee landlordship, there is little question that the U. S. is ground zero for continuing social and political effects arising from race slavery. It would not surprise me if my society is plagued by it to the end of its days.


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## Bloggsworth (Feb 5, 2012)

Olly Buckle said:


> Now I am curious, I wonder how they differ as a reader group? Are there sub groups of age or sex you target within the larger group? I genuinely believe that the black people in England who have grown up here have similar tastes to their white peers, it may not be true of first generation immigrants, but there can't be many of them in the African American population.




?!!!

In parts of London, Brixton and Tottenham for instance, they speak a patois almost unintelligible to most Londoners; in Tower Hamlets there are posters on the walls promising death to the infidels, so I doubt they're reading Jane Austen, Terry Prachet or even V S Naipaul; certainly not T_he Wide Sargasso Sea!_ - It is this that makes London such a vibrant place to live, in parts of the city English is a second language - On the underground on Friday I had a disagreement with an American woman, a long conversation with a Norwegian girl who hand-knitted clothing and sold it in Piccadilly and Camden markets and was asked for directions by a man from Singapore; it is this constant change which keeps the hub of the country moving forward; but it doesn't mean that we all have the same taste. Last year I was walking down North Finchley High Street behind three girls jabbering away in Russian, in the middle of a long sentence in cyrilic, _Vicky Pollard_ popped into the conversation, both incongruous and illuminating as to how visitors adapt and what catches their attention.

I doubt that there's uniformity of reading matter across East Sussex, let alone the whole of the UK, so why expect it across ethnic, cultural and religious boundries?


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## Olly Buckle (Feb 5, 2012)

I certainly didn't expect uniformity Bloggsworth, I said "as their white peers". I would expect both black and white labourers to read the Sun or Mirror though. Ethnic to me means 'originating in that place', there is no ethnic boundary between the children of immigrants and people whose parents were born here. An awful lot of the cultural background will be shared, they went to the same schools and watch the same television, there is some original input from their parents, but in my experience it tends to be in addition to rather than instead of English cultural habits, my friends would feed me salt fish and yams, but they also ate Lancashire hotpot and played rugby in their youth. I don't expect uniformity of reading habits, but neither do I expect differentiation to be be based on race or colour, rather on taste and age group. Like I said I shall ask some questions, promise to report back .


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## luckyscars (Feb 5, 2012)

Olly Buckle said:


> I may be completely out of touch, but I am unaware of a separate literature in this country. There was "Brick lane" which is placed in a well known Indian area of London, and my friend Andy wrote a book called "Shalom, Salamm", which is about a mixed marriage, but these books have a wider appeal. Maybe there simply is not a big enough audience to support a separate literature in our tiny country, or perhaps the different circumstance of racial diversity had an effect. Most British slaves were held in colonies and possessions, and used in sugar production, which had a massive death rate compared to tobacco production, so new slaves were continuously imported and a cultural tradition was not established. Racial diversity only started happening here (Outside a few small areas like Liverpool) in the 1950's-60's. I shall ask around among my non-white friends, most definitely curious now.



there are black writing sections at waterstones bookstores in more multi-ethnic cities, like birmingham and london, i believe.

anyway, i don't much like what i've read of authors 'targeting' ethnic markets. i'm pretty 'whatever' about it because i'm white and as such their existence is pretty irrelevant to me. but i like to think even if i was black i wouldn't go near those sections of bookstores. why not? well, because i don't like thinking of people in groups (i actually consider that quite racist, regardless of the good intentions behind it). also i don't think that in 21st century america with a black president, we should be in the business of encouraging the kind of patronizing, post-colonialist, affirmative-action crap that so often is counter-productive and divisive. 

also, and call me cynical, but i think such 'genres' can actually be pretty bad for fiction in general. they manipulate publishing houses into diverting precious resources into markets that are baseless and artificial (what racist crap goes into deciding what makes an AFRICAN-AMERICAN book anyway? does it have to be set in the ghetto? does it have to star lil'kim? does everyone eat fried chicken? give me a break, its such a fundamentally racist concept), thereby encouraging negative stereotypes and giving less-talented writers preference on the basis of their subject matter. write a good book about slavery and i'll buy it. write a mediocre book and i won't, no matter how you market it.


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## Ditch (Feb 5, 2012)

luckyscars said:


> there are black writing sections at waterstones bookstores in more multi-ethnic cities, like birmingham and london, i believe.
> 
> anyway, i don't much like what i've read of authors 'targeting' ethnic markets. i'm pretty 'whatever' about it because i'm white and as such their existence is pretty irrelevant to me. but i like to think even if i was black i wouldn't go near those sections of bookstores. why not? well, because i don't like thinking of people in groups (i actually consider that quite racist, regardless of the good intentions behind it). also i don't think that in 21st century america with a black president, we should be in the business of encouraging the kind of patronizing, post-colonialist, affirmative-action crap that so often is counter-productive and divisive.
> 
> also, and call me cynical, but i think such 'genres' can actually be pretty bad for fiction in general. they manipulate publishing houses into diverting precious resources into markets that are baseless and artificial (what racist crap goes into deciding what makes an AFRICAN-AMERICAN book anyway? does it have to be set in the ghetto? does it have to star lil'kim? does everyone eat fried chicken? give me a break, its such a fundamentally racist concept), thereby encouraging negative stereotypes and giving less-talented writers preference on the basis of their subject matter. write a good book about slavery and i'll buy it. write a mediocre book and i won't, no matter how you market it.



Wow, are you always this judgmental?

i'm pretty 'whatever' about it because i'm white and as such their existence is pretty irrelevant to me. 

​Really? Irrelevant?

(i actually consider that quite racist, regardless of the good intentions behind it)

Racist? Is targeting the young audience with an endless parade of vampires not the same thing? You write what a certain group of people may want to read. Romance appeals mainly to women, technical writing appeals more to men. History buffs will seek out relevant parts of our past, divers like reading about diving, it is just another genre. 

Why is it racist if a black person wants to read about their particular history and contribution and sufferings through it? Why is it racist for a Hispanic to write about it? I never intended to target the black population, it just so happened that my past and my particular story led my book to include a lot of black characters.

what racist crap goes into deciding what makes an AFRICAN-AMERICAN book anyway? does it have to be set in the ghetto? does it have to star lil'kim? does everyone eat fried chicken? give me a break, its such a fundamentally racist concept

Again, are you always this judgmental? No, actually it is set in the Yucatan in 1614 where the slaves were being badly abused. 

They eat a lot of seafood, but actually I'm surprised that you didn't include watermelon in their diet. 

The main character frees slaves by killing their masters to avenge the murder of his father. What begins as a revenge story grows into a movement to free all of the slaves, and they do it. Pretty racist of me, huh? You really should make inquiries into what a person is saying before you go throwing names and accusations out. Often, the one who screams "racist" is actually insecure about their own true feelings about race, or find another race irrelevant.


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## luckyscars (Feb 6, 2012)

Ditch said:


> Racist? Is targeting the young audience with an endless parade of vampires not the same thing? You write what a certain group of people may want to read. Romance appeals mainly to women, technical writing appeals more to men. History buffs will seek out relevant parts of our past, divers like reading about diving, it is just another genre.



nope, because none of those other audiences are defined by race. a 'black person' is not the same as a 'diver'. divers are all united by a specific common interests and passion...diving. is the suggestion that black people have specific common interests? that really sounds quite racist to me. like i say, i give it a pass because it doesn't infringe upon my existence, largely because i am white, but i know if i was black i'd probably find it pretty patronizing. 




> Why is it racist if a black person wants to read about their particular history and contribution and sufferings through it? Why is it racist for a Hispanic to write about it? I never intended to target the black population, it just so happened that my past and my particular story led my book to include a lot of black characters.



it isn't and i never said it was. what i object to is the label. as far as i'm concerned, black history is human history. sure, some black people may well take more of an interest in certain aspects that they feel speak to them and their history, but 'black' is not in itself a valid culture, an interest or a 'group'. sorry but it isn't. again, its the label i object to. it has a sinister jim-crow-esque flavor to it that i don't find palatable, and i'd feel the same way about a 'white fiction' label to. these distinctions, whether or not they exist in actuality, we should be working to free ourselves from, not propagate. 





> it is set in the Yucatan in 1614 where the slaves were being badly abused.
> 
> They eat a lot of seafood, but actually I'm surprised that you didn't include watermelon in their diet.
> 
> The main character frees slaves by killing their masters to avenge the murder of his father. What begins as a revenge story grows into a movement to free all of the slaves, and they do it. Pretty racist of me, huh? You really should make inquiries into what a person is saying before you go throwing names and accusations out. Often, the one who screams "racist" is actually insecure about their own true feelings about race, or find another race irrelevant.





>



please believe me when i say that story sounds extremely interesting and i (a white person) would probably enjoy it. i'd certainly enjoy it a whole lot more than i would a book on diving, a book on romance or a book on 'technical writing' (which, according to your thinking, i should enjoy a lot more as a man). so what does that tell you? it tells you there's no real need to label it as 'african american fiction'. it isn't african american fiction anymore than william shakespeare is 'white-anglo-saxon-protestant fiction'. and i didn't call you racist. when did i ever accuse anybody of racism? please find one quote in which i said anything mildly racist. what i said is that i find the idea of an institution that distinguishes between 'white' and 'black' literature racist. because, well, it IS and by every definition possible. this isn't 'screaming racist' - like i said, i actually give it a pass because on the whole it doesn't bother me. but don't delude yourself into thinking just because people like me don't, for one reason or another, feel comfortable objecting to it publicly that it isn't, at best, an unnecessary and, at worst, an unhealthy label.

the great thing about writing is, above virtually all other art forms, it is transcendent of race. you can write a great book about the injustices of slavery and segregation ('to kill a mockingbird', anyone?) without the need to pigeonhole. there are some great books written by and about black people. there's no need to 'target' certain demographics because if a book is good enough members of the groups it speaks to will find it through mutual interest, not because you or anyone else made some phony attempt to market it a certain way. the real question is, why do you WANT to target african americans with your book? one of my stories involves a paraplegic. another involves a pedophile. a couple involve people addicted to heroin. by your rational, all groups are valid, so why don't we go all the way and create 'paraplegic-fiction', 'pedophile fiction' and 'smackhead fiction' too? at least, in the latter two cases, there's some basis for common interest there. most black folks i know couldn't care less about slavery. i'm white and i'd like to read your book. what does that tell you?


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## Ditch (Feb 6, 2012)

is the suggestion that black people have specific common interests?

Many do, believe it or not.

that really sounds quite racist to me.

I thought you said you didn't call me a racist?

but 'black' is not in itself a valid culture, an interest or a 'group'. sorry but it isn't. 

Yes, it is a culture all to it's own. As I said earlier, there is a vast group of African  Americans who want to read something they can relate to. I don't know why this bothers you so much to try to turn it into a debate. It is a simple fact that the blacks who were captured and brought into slavery did in fact have a rich culture and their own set of beliefs.

there's no need to 'target' certain demographics because if a book is good enough members of the groups it speaks to will find it through mutual interest, not because you or anyone else made some phony attempt to market it a certain way. the real question is, why do you WANT to target african americans with your book?

Obviously you are on such a tirade that you didn't read my last response, I won't repeat it again.


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## luckyscars (Feb 6, 2012)

Ditch said:


> is the suggestion that black people have specific common interests?
> 
> Many do, believe it or not.




name one. aside from slavery, which ended almost one hundred a fifty years ago and which i guarantee you'll be hard pressed to find a single black man or woman outside of a history classroom. who considers it an interest of theirs.





> I thought you said you didn't call me a racist?



i didn't there's a difference between saying something sounds racist and calling someone a racist.





> Yes, it is a culture all to it's own. As I said earlier, there is a vast group of African  Americans who want to read something they can relate to. I don't know why this bothers you so much to try to turn it into a debate. It is a simple fact that the blacks who were captured and brought into slavery did in fact have a rich culture and their own set of beliefs.



ALL people want to read something they can relate to. like i said before, the difference between a group based on race and a group based on an interest is that the former is open to stereotypes and assumptions that rarely hold true. it doesn't bother me a whole lot. it just irks me that you'd start a thread on a genre that is, once again, by definition racist (again, not calling you racist, but the genre you're discussing is. by definition.) and then not want to hear any negative feedback about it. perhaps the blacks who were captured and brought into slavery had a rich culture and set of beliefs, but again that had nothing to do with them being black. it was because they were from AFRICA. are you targeting african readers? no. you're targeting american readers who happen to be black. you explain to me why an african-american teenager in 21st america has an innate attachment to the culture of an 18th century slave in colonial virginia, aside from skin color, a vague bloodline and the name 'african american', and i'll agree with you. otherwise its nonsense. the history of slavery is now human history. not african american history.


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## JosephB (Feb 6, 2012)

There are even websites that offer fiction specifically aimed at African Americans – so apparently _someone_ thinks it’s a good idea. I’m betting it’s African Americans, who don’t really care about white people who try to tell them what’s good for them.


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## Ditch (Feb 6, 2012)

I don't know why you are so hell bent on debating this, I chose the "General Writing" category, not the "Debate" one. If you wish to continue to debate what is and isn't racist, go to the debate topic and start your own thread. Obviously you have missed the book section of large chain stores like Sams or Walmart. There is a small section of books that would be of interest to black people and they are all grouped together, romance along with motivational. There is nothing racist about that either. I started this thread because I belong to a African American Literature Forum and yes,* they actively seek out works specifically pertaining to their race. They also eagerly await the release of movies such as "Red Tails. * So for you to say..ALL people want to read something they can relate to. like i said before, the difference between a group based on race and a group based on an interest is that the former is open to stereotypes and assumptions that rarely hold true. Or... you explain to me why an african-american teenager in 21st america has an innate attachment to the culture of an 18th century slave in colonial virginia, aside from skin color, a vague bloodline and the name 'african american', and i'll agree with you. otherwise its nonsense. the history of slavery is now human history. not african american history. ​simply shows me that you are not aware of this large group of people actively seeking this type of work. Peruse a few African American book forums before you go making any more assumptions. Again, this is not a debate, it is simply reality. A lot of Black people actively seek out black authors or books that pertain to something that they are particularly interested in. There is nothing racist about that.


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## Ditch (Feb 6, 2012)

JosephB said:


> There are even websites that offer fiction specifically aimed at African Americans – so apparently _someone_ thinks it’s a good idea. I’m betting it’s African Americans, who don’t really care about white people who try to tell them what’s good for them.



Precisely.


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## JosephB (Feb 6, 2012)

Yessa, Massa Luckscars, suh. See -- all we was wantin' was some books ‘bout our own folks. But if you sez  it ain’t good fo us, we sho will stop writin’ and readin’ ’em. Thank ya, suh!


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## Ditch (Feb 6, 2012)

To name a few...African American Literature Discussion Group

Center for Black Literature: Home Page

LOS ANGELES REVIEW OF BOOKS | What Is African American Literature? A Symposium

African Amer Lit Disc Grp


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## Ditch (Feb 6, 2012)

I've been posting a chapter a day from my first novel on an African American Literature forum and it has been fairly well received. I've had over 1,800 views in a little over 2 weeks. This makes my work known and possibly will make people want to read the sequels, of which there are three now and two more in the works.


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## ppsage (Feb 6, 2012)

Those essays in part one of the LA Symposium could certainly give persons wishing to express the notions lucky put forward somewhat confrontationally a useful exemplar of civil discourse. I couldn't tell if there were additional parts which re-constructed Afr. Amer. Lit.?


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## WriterJohnB (Feb 6, 2012)

Ditch,

I'm glad you started this column, because I've also written a book on African/American history, "...and Remember that I Am a Man." It's the story of a slave from my neck of the woods (Great Dismal Swamp, VA) who went through terrible things to finally buy freedom for himself and some of his family. In 1843 his narrative was published and he went to England, where he lectured to earn money to free more people. (Narrative of the Life of Moses Grandy) I also wrote a book about his early life for mid-graders, Boy in Chains.

I did this not for an African American audience, but because it seemed like nobody else, even locals, had heard of this man. Someone in this thread said he didn't think young blacks today could relate to an 18th century slave. Well, that's where we writers come in, isn't it? I'm hoping to someday have my book become a part of Black History Month, at least in the part of the country where Grandy lived. Don't you all think that a fictionalized history with an engaging protagonist would help youngsters relate to their ancestors better than a dry, boring textbook. That's my thought. I took the actual words of a slave in the early 1800's and put them into a story that teaches everyone about our common history.

And don't think there aren't many African Americans who are deep into history, as well as modern racial relations. I work with a school system and meet many people who are working to make our world better. A couple of months ago, I was invited to participate in a forum about Racial Genetics in Williamsburg, VA. There were just as many whites as blacks participating. Race relations aren't only important to African Americans, Latino Americans or Asian Americans, they're important to all people. At that forum, I was privileged to meet many scholarly, erudite authors, professors, teachers, and politicians including L. Douglas Wilder, the first black governor of America. (He governed Virginia, I'm proud to say.) He related to the audience that he was told by blacks and whites that the whites of Virginia would never vote for a black man. I'm proud to say that those naysayers were wrong.

Anyway, thanks Ditch. I'm going to visit some of those links you posted.

Take care,

JohnB

Oh, and I suppose I should have mentioned that I am white, but only because it's important to some of you. The color of my skin (or yours) is not the least bit important to me.


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## Ditch (Feb 6, 2012)

ppsage said:


> Those essays in part one of the LA Symposium could certainly give persons wishing to express the notions lucky put forward somewhat confrontationally a useful exemplar of civil discourse. I couldn't tell if there were additional parts which re-constructed Afr. Amer. Lit.?



Several points are made... In other words, once white racism actually was overcome, what would be the point in continuing to write as an African American? More generally, Warren asks, how would or should “black difference” — other than as a mere matter of skin color — “persist absent the systematic social and political constraints imposed on the nation’s black population” by white supremacists?

But...The most obvious and popular response to this question (on display most recently in every Obama-to-the-contrary-notwithstanding reminder that we don’t live in a post-racial world) has been to argue that racial subordination and exploitation have not in fact come to an end and that our era is one in which “the most obvious expressions of segregation and discrimination” characteristic of Jim Crow have only been replaced by “more covert but equally pernicious manifestations of racism.” Thus the question of what Warren calls continuing “black particularity” in the absence of white racism doesn’t need to be answered because the conditions under which it would need to be asked (the disappearance of white racism) don’t yet exist.

So, we still have black literature.


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## JosephB (Feb 6, 2012)

I guess I’m also struggling with the idea that it’s a bad thing that African Americans, or anyone really, might set out to write books that feature black characters and culture – and there is obviously a distinct culture -- music, fashion vernacular, food etc. -- or issues that many African Americans currently face. Are those things all negative stereotypes -- or can they simply be an accurate reflection of the black community today? What’s the problem with marketing them to African Americans in addition to a wider audience -- or even writing them specifically for that market?  Is that somehow racist?

A day will likely come when we’re all homogenized and people might not relate to a unique African American experience – including racism. But that day hasn’t come – and I really think it’s up to the African American community to decide when that happens.


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## patskywriter (Feb 6, 2012)

Wow, JohnB—your book sounds really interesting! I'm in relatively nearby Durham NC. Please visit my online newspaper at The Durham Skywriter and get in touch with me at your convenience. I'd love to have you as a guest on my radio show!


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## Ditch (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you for the intelligent, well thought out input. I'd really like to read your work John B, as would others. I never set out to write a book about slavery, it just happened that my story took that twist. Using a lot of African characters, I submitted it to an African American Literary forum, as I said. They would also be interested in reading your work as well. You can find it here..AALBC.com's Discussion Boards

Thank you also JosephB for stating what I've been trying to all along. The forum that has been following my story can be found here.............................African-American Literature Discussion Forum - Thumper's Corner - AALBC.com's Discussion Boards


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## ppsage (Feb 6, 2012)

Ditch said:


> So, we still have black literature.



Perhaps the question addressed in the reviewed volume isn't so much whether as ought. Which, as you rightly point out, is a debate topic and one I'm not much prepared to pursue. But then, I'm a lazy bugger, as evidenced by my apparently vain hope that I could purloin from you(Ditch) some immediately accessable knowledge about the continuation of the symposium. Guess not? I'm almost curious enough to find where they will go next, to search it out on my own. pp


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## Ditch (Feb 6, 2012)

I saw no continuation.


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## WriterJohnB (Feb 6, 2012)

patskywriter said:


> Wow, JohnB—your book sounds really interesting! I'm in relatively nearby Durham NC. Please visit my online newspaper at The Durham Skywriter and get in touch with me at your convenience. I'd love to have you as a guest on my radio show!



Geez, there's no place to send a message on this forum? I'll get back to you as soon as I get off my work computer, which banned your link. By the way, Moses Grandy was from Camden County, NC and much of my novel takes place there.

Take care,

JohnB


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## Ditch (Feb 6, 2012)

WriterJohnB said:


> Geez, there's no place to send a message on this forum? I'll get back to you as soon as I get off my work computer, which banned your link. By the way, Moses Grandy was from Camden County, NC and much of my novel takes place there.
> 
> Take care,
> 
> JohnB



What a great turn of events and publicity for your book, good for you John. I saw your work on the AALBC forum.


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## luckyscars (Feb 7, 2012)

JosephB said:


> There are even websites that offer fiction specifically aimed at African Americans – so apparently _someone_ thinks it’s a good idea. I’m betting it’s African Americans, who don’t really care about white people who try to tell them what’s good for them.



that's a terrible distortion of my point. i don't try and tell any group, real or imagined, what's good for them. partly because there's no point and i don't have the authority to do it, but mostly because i just don't recognize the existence of 'them' in the first place. if groups must exist, they should be formed on the basis of an interest that is both common among those within the group and distinct from the interests and opinions of those who are not. you prove to me that the average black man has distinct opinions and interests from me, a white man, stemming from his race and i'll be the first to champion 'african american literature'. 

but no, black people do not constitute such a group, and the insistence that they do is symptomatic of the racial divide that persists in america - thanks both to black and white people - and has no intellectual merit. and so what if a lot of black people think its a good idea? there's a lot of black people think homosexuality is a sin. are we to presume that view is also that of 'black people' and therefore has validity too? of course not. being interested in and opposed to slavery is not a 'black' view unless it is one white people do not also have, and there are virtually no white people in the 21st century that believe slavery to be a good thing. so there you go.

like i said, i don't care if african-american literature exists one way or another, but i will not hold back from saying it is no more legitimate a genre than putting up a shelf labelled 'white anglo-saxon literature' and shoving the complete works of dickens or shakespeare under it. its true that this is not a debate area, and to be honest i never tried to debate it. my initial post was actually to tell olly that there were areas in UK bookshops containing 'black literature' and then to answer the OP's question about whether or not i target the african-american market by saying i don't and that i don't like the idea of targeting audiences based on race. an entirely valid post that the OP then felt the need to press me on. but no, i did not initiate the debate, i simply addressed the responses of the OP to my initial post. and i must ask that you kindly do not distort my words.


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## Ditch (Feb 7, 2012)

I don't see anyone twisting your words, they stand out... alone..

i'm pretty 'whatever' about it because i'm white and as such their existence is pretty irrelevant to me.

I'm having difficulty understanding how you plead to be so not racist, when you say that their existence is irrelevant. 




what racist crap goes into deciding what makes an AFRICAN-AMERICAN book anyway? does it have to be set in the ghetto? does it have to star lil'kim? does everyone eat fried chicken? give me a break, its such a fundamentally racist concept.

Do you see how this statement sounds? Did'nt you mention negative stereotyping? Like below?


thereby encouraging negative stereotypes and giving less-talented writers preference on the basis of their subject matter. 


is the suggestion that black people have specific common interests? that really sounds quite racist to me.

Yes they do, and their interests are many. To increase minority representation in all levels of government from the city school boards on up to the highest levels of government. To end discriminatory practices that still exist; particularly in arrests and beatings that are obviously racially motivated.  To educate their own race toward repairing the obvious breakdown of the traditional family through unwed pregnancy which was unheard of in the 60's in black families. To address the unemployment rate and imprisonment ratio of young black males. There is also, believe it or not, a keen interest in slavery and the contributions of black people in history, to name just a few. It may be hard for a white person to understand this as they were not raised with the yoke of discrimination around their neck. 


as far as i'm concerned, black history is human history. 

See the above paragraph. White were never enslaved in this country or denied basic civil rights such as voting, equal education or even being able to drink from the same water fountain. their history is vastly different. 


but 'black' is not in itself a valid culture, an interest or a 'group'. sorry but it isn't. 

I know a lot of blacks that would debate this point with you. That statement alone is so ludicrous I won't even begin to address it. 


and i didn't call you racist. when did i ever accuse anybody of racism? 

See your above comments.




aside from slavery, which ended almost one hundred a fifty years ago and which i guarantee you'll be hard pressed to find a single black man or woman outside of a history classroom. who considers it an interest of theirs. 

The remaining plantations along with the preserved slave quarters continue to be well visited by people with an avid interest in their particular history. I myself visited the slave huts on Belize, long before I ever thought of writing about slaves. A lot of literature is devoted to this era. a quick Google search might just educate you on this topic if you try.


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## luckyscars (Feb 7, 2012)

Ditch said:


> I'm having difficulty understanding how you plead to be so not racist, when you say that their existence is irrelevant.




wrong. i said their existence was irrelevant to me. meaning its not an area of the bookstore i would tend to stop at, along with the gardening and cookbooks. whats racist about that? 



> Do you see how this statement sounds? Did'nt you mention negative stereotyping?




whats wrong with that statement? i didn't say i agreed with it. on the contrary, i cited it as an example of stereotypes. which i said repeatedly i am against




> Yes they do, and their interests are many. To increase minority representation in all levels of government from the city school boards on up to the highest levels of government. To end discriminatory practices that still exist; particularly in arrests and beatings that are obviously racially motivated.  To educate their own race toward repairing the obvious breakdown of the traditional family through unwed pregnancy which was unheard of in the 60's in black families. To address the unemployment rate and imprisonment ratio of young black males. There is also, believe it or not, a keen interest in slavery and the contributions of black people in history, to name just a few. It may be hard for a white person to understand this as they were not raised with the yoke of discrimination around their neck.



see, problem with those 'black interests' is that they're not specific to the black community. sorry to burst your bubble on that one, but most of those issues are common to all races (_discriminatory practices that still exist, _ breakdown of the traditional family through unwed pregnancy, etc) and have increasingly been for quite a few years now. the only issues there that i can agree with as being of specific pertinence to the AA community are the ones to do with historical slavery and current day high levels of imprisonment. you're correct that those are two issues that are particular to black people, given the nature of the slave trade and the fact black men are over-represented in the prison system. but, here's where you still have a problem. its NOT just black people to be interested in these things. i recently went to the movies to watch the movie 'the help', about segregation in the deep south, and the majority of the audience were actually white. and this was in columbus, ohio, which is a pretty mixed area. so my point is that the issues you mention which are the most relevant to the black community are not demanded solely, or even predominantly, by a black audience. the audience is all colors. which is why i disagree about the need to construct a genre about it, since all that creating a genre does is create boundaries.

let me put it another way. if you write a book about slavery and put it in the general fiction, white folks like me will probably make up at least half, and maybe even more, of those who buy and probably enjoy the book. the same book placed in a section labelled 'african american' will not have the same result. that isn't because we're racist, its just that you've categorized it in a way that might limit our access to it, in much the same way that an african american reader probably wont go look in the 'latin american' section, or somebody who doesn't dive won't go look in the diving section. in the case of a specific interest, thats fine, because somebody who is not interested in diving probably wouldnt care to read a diving book. they would be indifferent to it. but when it comes to novels on, say, slavery that is something EVERYONE can and arguably should read about and understand. so what good does it do to label it 'african american'? if it predominantly appeals to african americans thats fine, but by actively targeting them and labelling it a certain way you have to understand you may be alienating a potential white, latin or asian audience who would otherwise gain a lot from reading it.





> White were never enslaved in this country or denied basic civil rights such as voting, equal education or even being able to drink from the same water fountain. their history is vastly different.



obviously that's true, but so what? does that mean only black people should want to read about it? black history is human history because black people are part of the human species. the history of slavery is as relevant to white people as ancient greek history is to black people. it doesnt matter if white people were never slaves any more than it matters that black people never wrote 'the iliad' or shakespeare. all these things form a part of modern humanity through the history they're a part of, and as such no race has any business to claim authority over them.





> I know a lot of blacks that would debate this point with you.



so what?





> The remaining plantations along with the preserved slave quarters continue to be well visited by people with an avid interest in their particular history. I myself visited the slave huts on Belize, long before I ever thought of writing about slaves. A lot of literature is devoted to this era. a quick Google search might just educate you on this topic if you try.



yeah, um, that's my whole point. the slave quarters do continue to be well visited by PEOPLE. not black, not white, but all races. i remember visiting a similar ex-plantation in south carolina. i'd say three quarters of the people there were white. i never said there wasnt a lot of literature on the subject. i don't know if you're just dumb or perhaps you've pigeonholed me to the point where you're going to continue to misunderstand me ad nauseam, but my point is NOT that i don't think what you describe as 'african american' history is pointless or irrelevant, but that the act of labelling it as such is pointless and irrelevant. saying a book on slavery is an african american book is like saying 'schindler's list' is a jewish history movie. yes, it may technically be correct but it really understates the importance of the issue. the holocaust is for the whole world to learn about, and so is slavery.


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## Ditch (Feb 7, 2012)

I won't continue to try to make you agree that certain things peak the interest of blacks, more so_ because they are black, _but it is painfully obvious to me, having worked closely with them all of my life. Go on believing as you do, it is not a group or a culture.


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## luckyscars (Feb 7, 2012)

thanks, i will. and hopefully someday you'll realize people are made up of free-thinking individuals and not arbitrary groups.


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## Ditch (Feb 7, 2012)

[h=2]Got it...


ar·bi·trar·y[/h]   [ahr-bi-trer-ee]  Show IPA *adjective,noun, **plural **-trar·ies.*
*adjective**1.*subject to individual will or judgment without restriction;contingent solely upon one's discretion: _an arbitrary decision._

*2.*decided by a judge or arbiter rather than by a law orstatute.

*3.*having unlimited power; uncontrolled or unrestricted by law;despotic; tyrannical: _an arbitrary government._

*4.*capricious; unreasonable; unsupported: _an arbitrary demandfor payment._

*5.*_Mathematics _. undetermined; not assigned a specific value:_an arbitrary constant.


_


​


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## Ditch (Feb 7, 2012)

AALBC.com The #1 Site for African American Literature - Author Profiles, Book & Film Reviews, Interviews and More


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## The Backward OX (Feb 7, 2012)

> To educate their own race toward repairing the obvious breakdown of the traditional family through unwed pregnancy which was unheard of in the 60's in black families.



The longer I live the more convinced I become that most people involved in online discussion are motivated more by seeing their names up in lights than by the opinions they supposedly hold. Applying this statement to blacks only is clearly ridiculous, and no one who thinks about it for a few moments before posting would continue with the posting.

Put another way, it’s pretty obvious there aren’t many thinkers here.


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## JosephB (Feb 7, 2012)

luckyscars said:


> that's a terrible distortion of my point. i don't try and tell any group, real or imagined, what's good for them. partly because there's no point and i don't have the authority to do it, but mostly because i just don't recognize the existence of 'them' in the first place. if groups must exist, they should be formed on the basis of an interest that is both common among those within the group and distinct from the interests and opinions of those who are not. you prove to me that the average black man has distinct opinions and interests from me, a white man, stemming from his race and i'll be the first to champion 'african american literature'.
> 
> but no, black people do not constitute such a group, and the insistence that they do is symptomatic of the racial divide that persists in america - thanks both to black and white people - and has no intellectual merit. and so what if a lot of black people think its a good idea? there's a lot of black people think homosexuality is a sin. are we to presume that view is also that of 'black people' and therefore has validity too? of course not. being interested in and opposed to slavery is not a 'black' view unless it is one white people do not also have, and there are virtually no white people in the 21st century that believe slavery to be a good thing. so there you go.
> 
> like i said, i don't care if african-american literature exists one way or another, but i will not hold back from saying it is no more legitimate a genre than putting up a shelf labelled 'white anglo-saxon literature' and shoving the complete works of dickens or shakespeare under it. its true that this is not a debate area, and to be honest i never tried to debate it. my initial post was actually to tell olly that there were areas in UK bookshops containing 'black literature' and then to answer the OP's question about whether or not i target the african-american market by saying i don't and that i don't like the idea of targeting audiences based on race. an entirely valid post that the OP then felt the need to press me on. but no, i did not initiate the debate, i simply addressed the responses of the OP to my initial post. and i must ask that you kindly do not distort my words.



Well, you’re looking at this strictly in black and white terms -- so to speak. But it’s not that cut and dried. Of course -- interests or opinions aren’t going to be _100%_ distinct to black people or white people  – no one is claiming that’s the case -- so I don’t have to prove anything. What we are talking about is cultural, historical or issue oriented subject matter that might appeal or pertain to black people _more_ than white people -- because of the greater likelihood of some shared experience. That’s what makes it “legitimate” -- maybe not to you -- but to the people who might want to read it for that reason. Unless you were appointed  the Great Arbiter of Legitimacy -- and we just haven’t heard about it.

And I never said that being interested or opposed to slavery is uniquely a “black view” or of interest only to black people. I don’t see that slavery as subject matter is some mandatory feature of all African American literature -- so you can save the “there you go.” Nevertheless, it’s reasonable to assume that it might be of more interest to African Americans, given that  slavery and it’s legacy is the at the core of the their common experience.

There isn’t a category called "White Anglo-Saxon literature" -- because there has never been a need for it. There are uniquely African American institutions and traditions that were necessitated by segregation. Those things are declining in importance and relevance -- black colleges, Miss Black America pageants etc. -- but it’s black people who are determining when and how it happens. Apparently -- as time passes, more black Americans aren’t seeing them as a “good idea,” or that there is still a need for them. Someday, the same will likely be true for “African American Literature” as a category and there will no longer be a need or demand for it either. Otherwise, it’s absurd to compare any of these -- things that arose from necessity -- to something like a belief that homosexuality is a sin -- what a bizarre analogy. Your thinking speaks to my earlier point -- that you see yourself as more qualified to evaluate what might be a good idea for black people than they are. I think that's unlikely -- and I’ll go out on a limb here and suggest that this is because you are not black.

I see the idea of African American literature or books targeted to that market as detrimental only if it promotes ideas that are divisive -- rather than simply acknowledging a shared experience through character portrayals and storylines. If there is a demand for books that do this -- then of course publishers just might try to satisfy it by offering those books -- and retail and online outlets might market them as a separate category. I think you’d have to go out of your way to see this as something harmful -- and I’m betting that most people outside the black community wouldn’t have a problem with the idea -- or they probably don’t care -- so it seems like a stretch to suggest that it somehow could widen or perpetuate the racial divide. And if some people outside the African American community are uncomfortable with the idea or feel it’s a problem -- too bad. Black people will decide whether or not it's "legitimate" -- and when and if there is no longer a need for it.


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## JosephB (Feb 7, 2012)

The Backward OX said:


> The longer I live the more convinced I become that most people involved in online discussion are motivated more by seeing their names up in lights than by the opinions they supposedly hold. Applying this statement to blacks only is clearly ridiculous, and no one who thinks about it for a few moments before posting would continue with the posting.


 I don't think he's suggesting that this a problem unique to African Americans. That would be ridiculous. However -- the problem is disproportionally large among African Americans. It’s not ridiculous to say that it’s something that needs to be addressed and resolved within the community. Maybe if you lived here you'd know that.



The Backward OX said:


> Put another way, it’s pretty obvious there aren’t many thinkers here.



Mmm Hmm.


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## Ditch (Feb 7, 2012)

The Backward OX said:


> The longer I live the more convinced I become that most people involved in online discussion are motivated more by seeing their names up in lights than by the opinions they supposedly hold. Applying this statement to blacks only is clearly ridiculous, and no one who thinks about it for a few moments before posting would continue with the posting.
> 
> Put another way, it’s pretty obvious there aren’t many thinkers here.



I'm going by what is reported as the number of children born out of wedlock, which anyone can tell you has skyrocketed in the black population, from their own studies.


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## Ditch (Feb 7, 2012)

JosephB said:


> I don't think he's suggesting that this a problem unique to African Americans. That would be ridiculous. However -- the problem is disproportionally large among African Americans. It’s not ridiculous to say that it’s something that needs to be addressed and resolved within the community. Maybe if you lived here you'd know that.



Exactly, just as there is a disproportionate number of blacks in our prison systems as compared to the population. Some of the most vocal African Americans like Bill Cosby point this out and blame those of their own race, not others.


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## ppsage (Feb 7, 2012)

Although nobody's contributed to it for over a thousand years, there is certainly a body of work known as Anglo-Saxon literature. I'm not sure anybody really knows exactly what color they were but my suspicion is, if you got them washed off some, and shaved, they'd be fairly pale.


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## Ditch (Feb 7, 2012)

Like or believe it or not, blacks are a separate group and a culture. They do read and have certain distinct interests. I've had 1,963 views of my work in less than 3 weeks.

African-American Literature Discussion Forum - Thumper's Corner - AALBC.com's Discussion Boards


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## Shawn (Feb 7, 2012)

ppsage said:


> Although nobody's contributed to it for over a thousand years, there is certainly a body of work known as Anglo-Saxon literature. I'm not sure anybody really knows exactly what color they were but my suspicion is, if you got them washed off some, and shaved, they'd be fairly pale.



You really only need one word: Bede.


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## Olly Buckle (Feb 8, 2012)

Nice to see you Shawn, but a bit more than that I think, Anglo Saxon culture was fairly established in Eastern England by the 500's , there was an English Kingdom by the 700's and it went on until the Normans turned up after the millennium, though a lot of it was in the oral tradition.

Sorry if I started something in your thread Ditch, looking back I think some have difficulty distinguishing between racial and racist, Personally I don't see catering to that demand as much different from catering for a demand for specialist cosmetics and hair products, I was just surprised it existed, I suppose our histories of both immigration and slavery are very different, in some ways the young black people I know are more integrated into the customs and culture of the mainstream society than the children and grandchildren of white Jewish immigrants who arrived here before the second world war. I have been a bit stay at home lately, the period changing between medications is not easy, but I will ask about when I get back to town, if there is a literature over here you may well find it a bit different and interesting.


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## Ditch (Feb 8, 2012)

Sorry if I started something in your thread Ditch, looking back I think some have difficulty distinguishing between racial and racist, Personally I don't see catering to that demand as much different from catering for a demand for specialist cosmetics and hair products, I was just surprised it existed, I suppose our histories of both immigration and slavery are very different, in some ways the young black people I know are more integrated into the customs and culture of the mainstream society than the children and grandchildren of white Jewish immigrants who arrived here before the second world war.

No problem Oily, the entire point of this forum is to help each other write better and to help each other to promote our own work. I never intended to target a black readership, as I have said before. It just turned out that my story had a lot of black people as main characters and African Americans yearn for books in which blacks take a leading role. As you pointed out, the histories of our countries are very different and so are the viewpoints of the people who live here. I really don't see anything racist about any group wanting strong role models within their own race, particularly when historically they have been viewed as second class citizens by prejudice and ignorance.


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## Olly Buckle (Feb 8, 2012)

Saw my friend N today, she is of Indian extraction from Guyana but was born and brought up in South London. She says in Guyana there  is a considerable literature, both a Black one and an Indian one, some in patois. They are imported over here, but I think more for the older generation. She is in her early forties and although she will read black authors, like Ben Okri, and reckons other black people do as well, these books are not really 'aimed' and probably have as many, if not more, white readers. She also pointed to people like Ben Zephaniah, the poet, but again a lot of his appeal is to white audiences.

There is also a question of audience size, the USA has more than four times our population, and I would guess that a larger proportion is African in origin.


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## Shawn (Feb 8, 2012)

> Nice to see you Shawn, but a bit more than that I think, Anglo Saxon  culture was fairly established in Eastern England by the 500's , there  was an English Kingdom by the 700's and it went on until the Normans  turned up after the millennium, though a lot of it was in the oral  tradition.



Yeah, I know. Haha. I was just saying that if one wants to say that there wasn't a distinct era of pre-Conqueror literature, one only has to mention the name "Bede."


On the subject of this thread, there's a huge swath of unrecognized black writers. I went to a university where a large proportion of the student population was black. When I started editing the school's literary review, I found that every single submission that was passed onto me by my faculty supervisor was from a white student, usually female. I like to chalk it up to intrepid spirit, but it was more just to spite my supervisor, my gay, scrawny, white self decided to get some of the black male students to write down their oral tradition: basically just the raps they'd come up with whilst smoking pot behind the performing arts center.

I sort've expected the "b**ches and hos" sort of thing; but I stand corrected and severely humbled by the skill of these people that had never considered writing. That February, the first edition of our literary review was released with over 80% of the works written by African American students. So, I can't say I've ever written for an African American audience, but I have edited for one.

... I got to bite my thumb to my supervisor and increased circulation in one blow; which may have made me very, very happy. That, and I got as many Newports as I could smoke.


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## dale (Feb 8, 2012)

Ditch said:


> No problem Oily, the entire point of this forum is to help each other write better and to help each other to promote our own work. I never intended to target a black readership, as I have said before. It just turned out that my story had a lot of black people as main characters and African Americans yearn for books in which blacks take a leading role. As you pointed out, the histories of our countries are very different and so are the viewpoints of the people who live here. I really don't see anything racist about any group wanting strong role models within their own race, particularly when historically they have been viewed as second class citizens by prejudice and ignorance.


i'd just write what you see from your own viewpoint. it fits with YOUR story, right? there are always going to be people 
who try to emotionalize an issue, especially one like this. black writers write about white people from their perspective all the time.
what's the difference?


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## WriterJohnB (Feb 9, 2012)

Before I published my novel about slavery, "...and Remember that I Am a Man.", I entered it in the Amazon Breakthrough Novel Award contest. The first two reviews I received were glowing, but then I got to the quarterfinals and I got slammed. But not for my writing or the quality of the novel. I was slammed because I dared to use Moses Grandy's own narrative as the base for my novel. It was strongly hinted that I was guilty of plagiarism and told I had no right to tell his story. The reviewer didn't say it was because I was white, but it was implied.

No one else has said that, however. My black friends and colleagues and other blacks I met at a racial genetics seminar thought it was great that I was raising awareness of this man. In fact, I got to spend a couple of minutes with L. Douglas Wilder, our Virginia governor who was the first black governor in the nation, and he was interested in my book. I gave him a copy and got an e-mail a few days later that he was looking forward to reading it. If he ever gets back to me and says he enjoyed it, I'll ask him to write a forward and republish it.

I live on land that was once part of the Great Dismal Swamp (before the canal was built in early 1800's) and the swamp plays a role in Louisa May Alcott's writing. Longfellow wrote the poem "A Slave in the Dismal Swamp." The swamp was also a part of the Underground Railroad. I'm interested in the history of my home, both black and white, and make no apologies for writing a story that might make more people interested in our history.

Take Care,

JohnB


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