# Why do I dislike fanfiction?



## Arcopitcairn (Feb 8, 2014)

No seriously, tell me why.

Although in 1999 or 2000 I was responsible for some reprehensible Star Wars fanfiction, I soon soured on the practice. I find the entire activity rather irksome. I don't seem to be able to put a pin in exactly why I dislike fanfiction so much. I would very much like to hear some respected opinions on why fanfiction is not a good thing. Or is it perfectly harmless? Help me out here. I can't wrap my mind around the massive appeal.

It bothers me. Does it bother you at all?

I sometimes think that fanfiction is creative laziness. Though there is talent on display in some fanfiction, and it makes the writers happy, I find that, in good conscience, I just can't happily accept its existence. There is a sneer on my lips whenever I talk about it. In some nebulous way, I think it is artistically wrong.

What do you think?


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## The Tourist (Feb 8, 2014)

You're not alone.  I think the condition of laziness is so bad that guys are writing fan-fic and have actually convinced themselves it's creating.

With a world of information instantly a few keystrokes away, with tabletop graphics that outstrip any commercial venture of my generation, and cell phones that have more cache/memory than the entire bank of computers on the first lunar landing module, about the best we get is cobbled up variations on already passé movie themes.

Mark my words, someone is going to answer your thread from the position that there are excellent example of "creative rip-offs" that stand apart from poor examples of rip-offs...


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## Sam (Feb 8, 2014)

For anyone who might read this thread and think of posting some of their fan-fiction in response, please be aware that it is not allowed on WF. Not for reasons of quality, but because it raises copyright issues. 

For me, fan-fiction tends to come somewhere between TV spin-offs and authors who create 'businesses' that bang out novels by the bucket-load and which are neither written by the name author or are worth spending money on. Most fanfic I've read lacks originality as a given, but is also egregious in terms of quality.


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## bazz cargo (Feb 8, 2014)

Shadowalker has done some fine fan fiction. 

Like most prejudices there is no need to have a rational  reason.

Some very fine writers have delved into the commercial exploitation field, Alan Dean Foster springs to mind. I personally divide the  Fan Fiction written by fans who can't get enough of a fix from the legitimate source from the cynical greed of big business. 

Plus I think most writers start by being inspired by something, LOTR seems to have a particular attraction.


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## Gavrushka (Feb 8, 2014)

I struggle with the thought of a creative mind all but plagiarising the work of another, and justifying it by way of calling it fanfiction.

To me, it is a step beyond bandwagoning.

Inspiration from another literary source is not uncommon, but using the setting and characters of another author? No, that is not for me.

*edit* Alan Dean Foster is one of my favourite authors!


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## The Tourist (Feb 8, 2014)

Sam, I'm sorry to hear that.

I was thinking of penning a fan-fic on the ghost of Charlie Harper appearing to his lesbian daughter on "Two and a Half Men" granting her archery skills and enabling her to be a strong female lead against the next zombie apocalypse.

There's a talking rescue dog in the treatise that's the reincarnation of Philip Seymour Hoffman, reprising his THG role.  Are you sure you're not interested?

Swimming pools, movie stars.


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## Arcopitcairn (Feb 8, 2014)

I am also male. So perhaps fanfiction does not appeal to me because it is predominantly a womanly thing in my eyes. I knee-jerkedly equate it to quilting, the WNBA, hysterics, and tearful sparkles. Erotic fetishistic canonical warping by bored girls who waste their talent on slash. Please take any perceived misogyny in my statement and disregard it.

The slash thing. Ugh. I'm so far removed from homophobia that it's not even funny, but for some reason the insistent fascination these girls have with gay sex is mystifying and annoying. It's like me writing a story about Underdog raping El Kabong...heh, I'd probably actually read that. But Sherlock's heartfelt revelation that he was born female and hungers for Watson's man-love? Silly.


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## Kyle R (Feb 8, 2014)

I don't know about the female thing, but there are a lot of fans who crave more experiences with the characters they've fallen in love with. And there are a lot of fans who love to create new scenarios for those same characters.

Supply and demand. The fan-writers and the fan-readers are happy. Everybody wins. :encouragement:


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## The Tourist (Feb 8, 2014)

The Tourist said:
			
		

> Mark my words, someone is going to answer your thread from the position that there are excellent example of "creative rip-offs"





			
				bazz cargo said:
			
		

> Some very fine writers have delved into the commercial exploitation field



I don't even have to write jokes anymore, they write themselves.


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## Gavrushka (Feb 8, 2014)

KyleColorado said:


> I don't know about the female thing, but there are a lot of fans who crave more experiences with the characters they've fallen in love with. And there are a lot of fans who love to create new scenarios for those same characters.
> 
> Supply and demand. The fan-writers and the fan-readers are happy. Everybody wins. :encouragement:



I think, on a site such as this, we are more likely to look at it from a writer's point of view, which I will accept is very different to those who simply want to enjoy the words. - My issue is not with how well written they are, but with the fact _I_ would feel uncomfortable wearing the soiled underpants of another author.


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## Kyle R (Feb 8, 2014)

I view fan-fiction like remakes (or "covers", as they are called) of songs.

The newer musician didn't create the song. It's the intellectual creation of another artist. But they are taking the same materials and spinning it in their own direction (sometimes with barely a change at all, other times completely different.)

For some reason, though, cover songs are accepted without question... but not fan-fiction? Why not? What's the difference? :scratch:


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## Gavrushka (Feb 8, 2014)

KyleColorado said:


> I view fan-fiction like remakes (or "covers", as they are called) of songs.
> 
> The newer musician didn't create the song. It's the intellectual creation of another artist. But they are taking the same materials and spinning it in their own direction (sometimes with barely a change at all, other times completely different.)
> 
> For some reason, though, cover songs are acceptable... but not fan-fiction? Why not? What's the difference? :scratch:



If I were a musician, I may feel different, but I have no better answer.


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## The Tourist (Feb 8, 2014)

Gavrushka said:


> _I_ would feel uncomfortable wearing the soiled underpants of another author.



Perhaps it's you and me that are out of step.  Clearly the genre has reframed itself with the catchy title of "commercial exploitation field."  To add, we no longer have illegal aliens, they are now "undocumented."

I might be missing the boat.  I'll just re-invent myself akin to the same concept.  With that, I'm no longer a knife sharpener, I'm now a "Certificate Devoid Saloon Gynecologist."

Doctor Tourist.  I like it...


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## Morkonan (Feb 8, 2014)

Gavrushka said:


> ...- My issue is not with how well written they are, but with the fact _I_ would feel uncomfortable wearing the soiled underpants of another author.



^---- This. 

I don't mind certain sorts of fun fan-fiction. Just so long as it doesn't take itself too seriously, that is. But, drawing on the established milieu without having to create a Setting, using the recognized personalities without having to truly construct Characters and then taking liberties with the Plot, just so you can promote a fangasm that doesn't have much at all to do with your own work, is not appealing to me.

Oh, and "fanfiction" is usually terribly written balderdash... Now, please understand, I have no problem with terribly written balderdash! In fact, some of the young fans that produce fanfiction are, perhaps, taking their first creative steps into writing and nobody should deny them that opportunity. But, we don't have to read it.

I'd like to make a subtle distinction - Some fanfiction only draws very lightly on the source material. For instance, on a site called "twcenter" which is a fansite for the Total War series of games, members sometimes produce After Action Reports as short-form fiction. (Basically, a story that is based on their experiences during a gaming session/series of sessions.) Here, the writer is taking advantage of a Setting that is shared amongst all the players of that game, but isn't working with any Characters and certainly no sort of fictional history. On another site, egosoft.com, the home site for the "X" series of science-fiction games, players write stories, sometimes even serials, about their game experience through the perspective of their character. Again, the unique dynamic of a shared Setting is the basis of this sort of story. Personally, I don't regard this sort of "fanfiction" as being within the mainstream sorts of fanfiction that are practically universally detested. There's a different purpose going on within these sorts of works - A communication of a real-life experience, told in fictional form. It's really sort of neat how that kind of thing works out.


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## The Tourist (Feb 8, 2014)

Morkonan said:


> I'd like to make a subtle distinction - Some fanfiction only draws very lightly on the source material.



I never found semantics a good cover for behavior.

If you believe in the expression "draws very lightly on the source material" then you should have absolutely no problem with me having a "casual affair" with your wife.

If you really want to cling to someone's coattails, why not just contact the original author, tell him/her you have a great idea for a sequel, and offer collaboration?

Oh, and I know the answer.  A guy who is creative and successful enough to draw out wannabees doesn't need any help.  And his brand certainly doesn't need a guy bankrupt of his own original ideas.


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## Kyle R (Feb 8, 2014)

Gavrushka said:


> My issue is not with how well written they are, but with the fact _I_ would feel uncomfortable wearing the soiled underpants of another author.



I can understand that. I guess it depends on the individual.

If you were hired as a writer for a television show, for instance, you'd be, essentially, getting paid to write "fan-fiction." Your job would be to write stories with an already-established set of characters and settings.

So, from that analogy an interesting questions pops to mind: Do those here who dislike fan-fiction writers also dislike television writers for the same reason?


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## The Tourist (Feb 8, 2014)

KyleColorado said:


> So, from that analogy an interesting questions pops to mind: Do those here who dislike fan-fiction writers also dislike television writers for the same reason?



To that (and based on my wife's comments), I would have to answer "yes."

She liked a comedy called "Mike and Molly."  They had one of those re-imagining years, where they completely changed the premise, one of the lead's jobs and shifted to slap-stick humor.  Clearly they hired a bunch of new writers.  And the problem is the same.

We had a thread here about changing a plot's premise to avoid writing yourself into a corner.  Clearly, that show made the blunder.

So they hired some mechanics, trashed the errors, stole the best ideas, pretended the viewers wouldn't notice and produced a diluted copy of the original.  

A fan-fic gambit at its worst.  And writers should be better than that, and they are not.


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## ppsage (Feb 8, 2014)

The thing I hate about reading or writing fanfiction is all the research.


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## The Tourist (Feb 8, 2014)

ppsage said:


> The thing I hate about reading or writing fanfiction is all the research.



I don't know if you're kidding or not.

But in a very real sense, what's to research?  If you can rip-off the guy's original idea, then it's short hop to stealing the author's bibliography and other resource documents.  Heck, you could simply TiVo his Entertainment Tonight interview and hijack his vision.


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## Kyle R (Feb 8, 2014)

The Tourist said:


> To that (and based on my wife's comments), I would have to answer "yes."
> 
> She liked a comedy called "Mike and Molly."  They had one of those re-imagining years, where they completely changed the premise, one of the lead's jobs and shifted to slap-stick humor.  Clearly they hired a bunch of new writers.  And the problem is the same.
> 
> ...



I see. That's a good example! Though, that's more an argument against "poor writing", rather than against fan-fiction, in my opinion.

For discussion sake: had the new writers improved the show, making it better, would you still dislike the writers for what they do (fan-fiction writers for hire)?

Or does the quality of fan-fiction determine whether or not you like it?


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## Kevin (Feb 8, 2014)

> what's to research?


- for something like starwars you'd have to follow everything that's already been written in the original(s). If you did change something you'd have explain it.

_"Fan fiction can be seen as an unauthorized expansion of these media franchises into new directions which reflect the reader's desire to "fill in the gaps" they have discovered in the commercially produced material"_- Henry Jenkins, cited in a Wiki. Didn't know that A (op). Didn't know what it (fanfic) was really. Thank you.


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## The Tourist (Feb 8, 2014)

You touch on several points, I'll take them separately



KyleColorado said:


> I see. That's a good example! Though, that's more an argument against "poor writing", rather than against fan-fiction, in my opinion.



I look at all valuable storytelling as "creative writing."  The fake is never as good as the original.  For example, would you eat a spreadable Chinese rip-off product called "VegeMole."  It's kind of like the  Australian product, it has more protein, and the Beijing informs me that it's almost lead-free, utilizing only quality rodents...



> For discussion sake: had the new writers improved the show, making it better, would you still dislike the writers for what they do (fan-fiction writers for hire)?



That's a good question.  I can only comment on what I've seen as a singular observer.  I've never seen a re-make of anything (including motorcycles) that were an improvement.



> Or does the quality of fan-fiction determine whether or not you like it?



Well, the reference to Star Wars was the one ray of hope that this thread uncovered.  Either George Lucas can't write dialog or he's has trouble hiring those who can.  I think the Anakin Skywalker/Padme love affair could only be improved with a fan-boy polishing it up.

Having said that, every Lone Ranger retelling has been a disaster.


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## thepancreas11 (Feb 8, 2014)

Funny you should mention that, Mr. Tourist. My dream of being a writer started back in the eighth grade when my friend bet me I couldn't write a story better than Episode I-The Phantom Menace. Over the next eight years, on and off, I wrote a fan fiction that morphed along with the Star Wars universe.  Eventually it was set 2000 years before the movies and with completely different characters, story-lines, and ideas. I did research, and in a place like the Galaxy Far Far Away, there is a hell of a lot of research to do (Search for the website called Wookieepedia, and you'll know what I mean). If you ever dream of putting yourself in that echelon of Star Wars writers, with a canonical story (i.e. one that can be published), you have to do an awful lot of reading. So a properly written Star Wars fan fiction is not a lazy piece of writing, trust me.

Now, since I finished that story, I've gone on to bigger and better things, fresh, original ideas, and hopefully, a future in creating a Universe of my own, but I always go back to that fan fiction as the source of my dream. The fact remains that most writers start off with inspiration from somebody else. Why did you start writing? I think, if you looked back, you would see that there was a book, or maybe a series of books, that really got under your skin and inspired you. Maybe you didn't start writing a fan fiction, but I can bet you that the idea crossed your mind. You thought about how you would have written the story, or you thought about what the characters were going to do next or were doing before. I can almost guarantee that you put yourself in the mind of that writer that got you going and thought like he did, even if you didn't eventually put those ideas onto paper.

A fan fiction is a good place to start. You can create within the safe confines of someone else's world, and if it gets people reading and writing, then I refuse to hate it, even if the quality is awful. Trust me, I've read some ideas on this website that weren't very good, even though they were original, but I'm never going to shut down a person that wants to write. If you have something for me to read, I read it. If it's a rip off of Indiana Jones, maybe that's what it is, maybe I'll tell you that's what it is, but I'll sure as hell read it.

I think what peeves people about fan fictions is that the overwhelming majority of them are bad. I mean, look at all the Hollywood sequels out there that don't hold a candle to the original. Star Wars is a great example. That prequel trilogy is horrendous. There's Indiana Jones and the Weird Space Aliens, Transformers and the Exploding Exploders, Superman Part Who Cares, Is This Over Yet?, and more Final Chapters of Halloween and Friday the Thirteenth than there are chapters in The Fault in Our Stars (this is, of course, exaggeration, but just barely). They feel lazy and naive, and poorly done, and that gets under our skins because we know how good the original is, and it feels like a stain on the memory of the writer who first dreamt up the place we love.

But you have to admit, every once in a while, there are a few out there that catch you off guard because they're written well. There's The Dark Knight, a completely refreshing take on a subject that has been hacked to bits, there was Terminator 2, where they made even Arnold Schwarzenegger look good, and the Bourne Trilogy, which was loosely based on the books and frankly, rocked my socks off. Some "fakes" are as good and as innovative as the original. It may be rare, but when you come across them, they're pretty fun.


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## Bruno Spatola (Feb 8, 2014)

If they're written well and interesting, I don't really care if they're not purely original.  

I might as well just burn most of my comic collection if fan fiction is so unlikable. I didn't throw _Batman: Year One_ out the window when I saw Frank Miller credited on the front, I read it and enjoyed it. If it works for me, it works for me; that's _all_ _I_ _care about_. 

Here's the part where I contradict myself: I generally hate cover songs and movie remakes.

Covers I like: 

Feeling Good
House of the Rising Sun
Hurt

Remakes I like:

Frankenweenie


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## The Tourist (Feb 8, 2014)

Bruno Spatola said:


> If they're written well and interesting, I don't really care if they're not purely original.



Are you working on your own book?  Do you hope/plan to have it published so that people can read it?  Have you invested a lot of your time and money (amid the sacrifices for other things) in your work to make it as riveting and page-turning as you could?

If so, tell me when it comes out.  It's nice to know I can rip it off and share in your fortune and fame.  Thanks in advance for the free ride.


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## The Tourist (Feb 8, 2014)

Bruno Spatola said:


> If they're written well and interesting, I don't really care if they're not purely original.



Are you working on your own book?  Do you hope/plan to have it published so that people can read it?  Have you invested a lot of your time and money (amid the sacrifices for other things) in your work to make it as riveting and page-turning as you could?

If so, tell me when it comes out.  It's nice to know I can rip it off and share in your fortune and fame.  Thanks in advance for the free ride.


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## popsprocket (Feb 8, 2014)

The issue of originality aside, fanfiction bothers me because it's usually written at the level of a five-legged cat strutting across a keyboard.


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## Bruno Spatola (Feb 8, 2014)

What does me enjoying some kinds of loose fan fiction have to do with my own writing? In what way, shape or form does that suggest I'd be happy by default if any random author stripped elements of my work and spliced them into a new story for their own gain? Also, as I thought my Batman example implied, who says that I approve of straight-up ripping off a work of fiction in the first place? I don't believe fan fiction is necessarily always like that. I'm talking more about comics penned by different authors and artists, things like that; not _Larry Cotter and the Half-price Quince._

To me, _Star Trek Into Darkness_ is fan fiction. It's not 100% original -- I don't even think it's a good film -- but a lot of care went into it, and it's of a high quality in many areas. I don't think there's anything so wrong with that. I draw a line between extension, reimagining, and ripoff.


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## BobtailCon (Feb 8, 2014)

I enjoy writing fanfictions from time to time, fanfiction for me is just a story written in a certain universe. I've written short stories about encounters in the 
Fallout universe, and other video games (these are action stories, mind you). 

Fanfictions are now seen as stories that preteen girls write to get off to their favorite boy band, which I find extremely idiotic.


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 8, 2014)

My problem with fanfiction is that I have to sift through an awful lot of suck to find something good, that and the fact that no fanfiction writer seems to be aware of when their siht stinks.


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## movieman (Feb 8, 2014)

popsprocket said:


> The issue of originality aside, fanfiction bothers me because it's usually written at the level of a five-legged cat strutting across a keyboard.



Bingo. A tiny fraction is good (e.g. I loved a Scooby Doo/Cthulhu crossover I read years ago), most of it is horrible, and a small fraction is horrifying. Unfortunately even the stories with good ideas rarely have good writing.


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## InstituteMan (Feb 8, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> My problem with fanfiction is that I have to sift through an awful lot of suck to find something good, that and the fact that no fanfiction writer seems to be aware of when their siht stinks.



+1

My daughter loved reading and writing the stuff at 12. She grew out of it. I don't doubt that some of it is good. I have no problem if you like it. I am not interested in sifting through all of the crap to find whatever good stuff is there, though.


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## Kyle R (Feb 8, 2014)

Bruno Spatola said:


> who says that I approve of straight-up ripping off a work of fiction in the first place? I don't believe fan fiction is necessarily always like that.



I agree. Fan-fiction is almost never a copy or rip-off of an original story. Fans simply wouldn't accept that, nor create it.

Fan-fiction is the same characters and setting, but with completely new plots and circumstances. That's what makes it enjoyable for the fans. It's something with their beloved characters that they haven't seen before. :encouragement:

"What if Marty McFly travelled back in time with the Delorian to 10,000 B.C. and and fell in love with a cave-girl?"


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## SarahStrange (Feb 8, 2014)

I don't get why anyone would have a problem with fan fiction. Seriously. People love characters and want to spend more time with them. What's wrong with that? If you don't like it, don't read it. Easy fix. And if you don't like it and don't read it as a logical person would, then how do you know the writing is poor? It'd be like me trolling through some idiotic Facebook group dedicated to some political group that I disagree with and critiquing their grammar in the comments. I don't like this particular hypothetical group, so I don't interact with them. It's _too_ rational, I know.

Some people only have the characters on a screen or on a page to connect with. If the amount of material written or filmed is all that keeps them together and they need/want more, then heck yes. Write it! No matter how bad. And similarly, no matter how bad if they feel proud of it, share it. Absolutely.


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## The Tourist (Feb 8, 2014)

SarahStrange said:


> I don't get why anyone would have a problem with fan fiction. Seriously. People love characters and want to spend more time with them. What's wrong with that?



For me, it's simple.  All of the characters we know and love were at one time the literary machinations of a singular creative artist.  They struck a chord with us.

But for every choice you make you are also deciding not to do something else.  When you crank out another novel about the misadventures of the love-child derived from Darth Vader and Katniss, you are also not creating anything new and groundbreaking.

If you simply do what everyone else has done you're an opportunist, not a writer.


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## popsprocket (Feb 8, 2014)

SarahStrange said:


> I don't get why anyone would have a problem with fan fiction. Seriously. People love characters and want to spend more time with them. What's wrong with that? If you don't like it, don't read it. Easy fix. And if you don't like it and don't read it as a logical person would, then how do you know the writing is poor? It'd be like me trolling through some idiotic Facebook group dedicated to some political group that I disagree with and critiquing their grammar in the comments. I don't like this particular hypothetical group, so I don't interact with them. It's _too_ rational, I know.
> 
> Some people only have the characters on a screen or on a page to connect with. If the amount of material written or filmed is all that keeps them together and they need/want more, then heck yes. Write it! No matter how bad. And similarly, no matter how bad if they feel proud of it, share it. Absolutely.



By the same token we're entitled to our own anti-fanfiction stance, right?

I have no problem with people reading or writing fanfiction, it's just not my thing. I've looked over some pieces in the past and never found one constructed in passable language, so I don't read it. It's not really the same as trolling people with different tastes because I don't go on fanfiction sites and tell people they suck, I keep those opinions to myself and move on with my life.


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## SarahStrange (Feb 8, 2014)

> If you simply do what everyone else has done you're an opportunist, not a writer.



I vehemently disagree. It's not about making money (the _*vast*_ majority of fan fiction is free). It's not about trying to be original. It's not about hoarding other people's work. It's about spending time with characters you love. It's imitation and therefore flattery. Originality of widely overrated. EVERYTHING is a reproduction of something else. There is nothing, absolutely nothing that is wholly original. The boundaries are purely arbitrary and therefore useless. As long as there is no ill will, then no problem.

I also have a bone to pick with the idea that _anyone_ has the right to say someone else is or is not a writer. No one is that important, informed, or impressive that they have the right to bestow or revoke the title of "writer" on anyone, no matter what they think of themselves. If you believe you are a writer, then you are a writer. And no one can take that away from you.


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## SarahStrange (Feb 8, 2014)

> I have no problem with people reading or writing fanfiction, it's just not my thing.



If you just don't read it and have no qualms about fan fiction, then my comment was not directed at you (see first line of my post). It's people who have a "problem" with it. As in, they don't think people should do it, and/or should be prevented from doing so because of said "problem." Or that people that don't keep their negative or opposing viewpoints to themselves (opposite of what you wrote that you do).


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## The Tourist (Feb 8, 2014)

SarahStrange said:


> I vehemently disagree. It's not about making money (the _*vast*_ majority of fan fiction is free). It's not about trying to be original. It's not about hoarding other people's work.



I would then ask why it's not permitted here for copyright reasons.  And frankly, if I had a character or story or screenplay being diluted by some fan-boy I'd sue him back to the stone-age.

The creative work of others is a possession like any other.  Just because you like Corvettes doesn't mean you get to drive mine "just because."


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## SarahStrange (Feb 9, 2014)

> I would then ask why it's not permitted here for copyright reasons. And frankly, if I had a character or story or screenplay being diluted by some fan-boy I'd sue him back to the stone-age.
> 
> The creative work of others is a possession like any other. Just because you like Corvettes doesn't mean you get to drive mine "just because."



Obviously, you haven't read much fan fiction. The good ones, and frankly the majority, make sure to post a disclaimer at the beginning of the story telling the reader that the characters do not belong to them. Websites that host fan fiction include the same sort of statement somewhere bold and obvious. No one is claiming originality or ownership. It's more like seeing you drive your "corvette" on the street, then going back home to draw a picture of it, or build a small replica. No one is taking it our of your yard. In fact, you probably won't even know. Unless you intentionally seek it out....

Do you think that art students replicating Picasso's style should be sued because of it? If so, that's very strange. If not, then why should a writer making fan fiction for the exact same reasons be sued? No one is losing money. No one is claiming that the style belongs to them. And some people need to realize that in the technological age we live when work is put out into the world, there is absolutely no control over who sees/reads it. The idea that one could sue everyone who admires and imitates your work (if it's good/popular enough) isn't very probable or even possible. And what would you even sue anyone for? They're not making money off it... they said the characters didn't belong to them.... What's left?


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## The Tourist (Feb 9, 2014)

SarahStrange said:


> Obviously, you haven't read much fan fiction.



Of course not.  I don't chew tobacco, either, and much for the same reason.

But instead of viewing yourself as a consumer, view yourself as a victim.  Whether you'll admit it or not, there are "writers" here that you wouldn't loan a Number 2 pencil, much less access to your stories and characters.

For the sake of rebuttal, suppose some hack is bereft of ideas and finds one of your old treatises here when he accessed the search function.  Hey, he just takes it, because he can.

I'm sure there are lots of hungry people in the world you'd like to help.  But coming home to a broken door lock, an empty refrigerator and sinkful of dirty dishes from a guy who thinks everything he sees is his is quite another matter.

A thief is a thief is a thief.


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 9, 2014)

> Why did you start writing? I think, if you looked back, you would see  that there was a book, or maybe a series of books, that really got under  your skin and inspired you. Maybe you didn't start writing a fan  fiction, but I can bet you that the idea crossed your mind.



The first story I wrote..I wrote when I was seven. It had nothing to do with any show or book or anything else. I loved reading (and still d0, much to the detriment of my writing time) I have never, not even once, read a book or watched a movie and thought about what happened after the end. I always figured that the author/writer ended things there for reasons of their own.

Writing a fanfiction piece, in any form, has not ever occurred to me.

I really don't care if anyone does, or doesn't. What they choose to do with their time is up to them. But, if they were to take my work, and think they could make a profit from it...well..


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 9, 2014)

From a market perspective, I see fanfic the same way I see cover bands.  It can be hella good advertising.


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## The Tourist (Feb 9, 2014)

T.S.Bpwman said:


> I really don't care if anyone does, or doesn't. What they choose to do with their time is up to them. But, if they were to take my work, and think they could make a profit from it...well..



There's a song called "Welcome to the Jungle."  Perhaps the lyrics in the song might underline how we should look at this topic:

_"If you got a hunger for what you see, you'll take it eventually
You can have anything you want but you better not take it from me"_

If someone stole anything I own I'd make sure they spent enough time at the courthouse trying to justify their worthless lives that they'd qualify for discount parking.

If you like my book or the movie, buy the poster and hang it in your bedroom.  You take my book or movie...


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## Bruno Spatola (Feb 9, 2014)

Where is this band of writers making money off of other people's work? I certainly haven't seen that. If people are directly removing elements of others' material, rearranging and/or Frankenstein-ing it with other works, whatever, and selling it without permission, then yeah, that's obviously wrong.

But what percentage of it is that? For me, if it's harmful, it's plagiarism; if it's not, it's fan fiction.


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## bookmasta (Feb 9, 2014)

Fan fiction is just...meh. Usually its poorly written and isn't worth reading. But my stance on the work varies. Now if someone were taking credit for my work and claiming it as their own or writing a spinoff story with any of my characters for the means of publishing or financial gain, there will be a problem. But if they are doing it for themselves and don't plan on publishing it or uploading it anywhere, I don't care. And my reason for that is simple. Often, these people who write about whatever book their fan fiction is based on are some of the most dedicated fans. I mean it would still be weird to see someone else writing about my characters, but at the same time, I wouldn't mind as long as they were within the grounds I stated above.


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 9, 2014)

The Tourist said:


> There's a song called "Welcome to the Jungle."  Perhaps the lyrics in the song might underline how we should look at this topic:
> 
> _"If you got a hunger for what you see, you'll take it eventually
> You can have anything you want but you better not take it from me"_
> ...



Exactly.


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 9, 2014)

Bruno Spatola said:


> Where is this band of writers making money off of other people's work? I certainly haven't seen that. If people are directly removing elements of others' material, rearranging and/or Frankenstein-ing it with other works, whatever, and selling it without permission, then yeah, that's obviously wrong.
> 
> But what percentage of it is that? For me, if it's harmful, it's plagiarism; if it's not, it's fan fiction.



But that was my point. As long as they aren't trying to profit from MY work..I could care less. If they, for the most part, aren't trying to profit from someone else' work...I could care less.

It's when (or IF) they decide to try to sell it that would become the problem for me.

I have a question of my own though. This is strictly hypothetical because I would never actually do it...

Let's say I get my novel published and it winds up being pretty popular. Enough so that it creates a fandom out there. Now...some of these fans decide to write some fanfic involving my characters. I see some of this and decide that some of the ideas would really work. Would it then be acceptable for me to take _their _ideas and use them myself? Does the fact that I created the characters and environments and such make it okay for me to take their ideas and use them in the same way that they used my creations?


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## bookmasta (Feb 9, 2014)

T.S.Bpwman said:


> But that was my point. As long as they aren't trying to profit from MY work..I could care less. If they, for the most part, aren't trying to profit from someone else' work...I could care less.
> 
> It's when (or IF) they decide to try to sell it that would become the problem for me.
> 
> ...



That sounds more like intellectual property. I would probably try to get in contact with them and ask. And from the viewpoint of being a fan and having an author wanting to involve one of my ideas in their next novel would be amazing. Heck, I'd be ecstatic just to have my name in the acknowledgments.


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## popsprocket (Feb 9, 2014)

T.S.Bpwman said:


> Let's say I get my novel published and it winds up being pretty popular. Enough so that it creates a fandom out there. Now...some of these fans decide to write some fanfic involving my characters. I see some of this and decide that some of the ideas would really work. Would it then be acceptable for me to take _their _ideas and use them myself? Does the fact that I created the characters and environments and such make it okay for me to take their ideas and use them in the same way that they used my creations?



Copyright only protects the actual presentation of an idea. You can take their ideas and use them.

The real issue is when they recognise that idea and claim you stole it from them, then you get destroyed in the media for what the media deems 'plagiarism'.


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 9, 2014)

popsprocket said:


> Copyright only protects the actual presentation of an idea. You can take their ideas and use them.
> 
> The real issue is when they recognise that idea and claim you stole it from them, then you get destroyed in the media for what the media deems 'plagiarism'.



That's pretty much what I figured. lol

It does make sense. 

I will say that, if something like that did occur, I would go directly to the person who wrote what I found interesting and ask if they would be willing to let me use it. If not, so be it.


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 9, 2014)

bookmasta said:


> And from the viewpoint of being a fan and having an author wanting to involve one of my ideas in their next novel would be amazing. Heck, I'd be ecstatic just to have my name in the acknowledgments.



Piers Anthony made a boatload doing that with the Xanth novels.


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## SarahStrange (Feb 9, 2014)

> _If someone stole anything I own I'd make sure they spent enough time at the courthouse trying to justify their worthless lives that they'd qualify for discount parking_



I just don't understand this. It seems so mean spirited. Why would anyone want to punish someone for loving their characters? It's not like they're getting anything out of it besides some happiness. No money. No credit. Just the love of whatever was created. IMO it's the highest form of flattery. MY characters where good enough to inspire others to write?! I'd be thanking them for that high flattery.


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## bookmasta (Feb 9, 2014)

SarahStrange said:


> I just don't understand this. It seems so mean spirited. Why would anyone want to punish someone for loving their characters? It's not like they're getting anything out of it besides some happiness. No money. No credit. Just the love of whatever was created. IMO it's the highest form of flattery. MY characters where good enough to inspire others to write?! I'd be thanking them for that high flattery.



Well spoken.


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 9, 2014)

SarahStrange said:


> I just don't understand this. It seems so mean spirited. Why would anyone want to punish someone for loving their characters? It's not like they're getting anything out of it besides some happiness. No money. No credit. Just the love of whatever was created. IMO it's the highest form of flattery. MY characters where good enough to inspire others to write?! I'd be thanking them for that high flattery.



I can't speak for Tourist, but I believe he was agreeing with my post about someone stealing ideas and then trying to _make money _from those ideas. As far as I am concerned, if they want to take something that I created and make something more with it (if the really believe they can), cool. Just as long as they are doing it for their own enjoyment and letting others enjoy it free of charge. I wouldn't want to punish someone for loving my work that much. That would be, to me, rather counterproductive.

I would be flattered as well. But flattery isn't going to pay the rent. I work hard on the worlds I create and the people that populate them. I wouldn't stand for someone paying _their rent_ with the sweat of my brow.


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## Gavrushka (Feb 9, 2014)

I must admit I'd never considered the financial angle when talking about fan fiction. On this site, we're mainly people who enjoy creative writing and, as a writer, I struggle with the thought that others are using the concepts and ideas of another author, who may have taken decades developing them. - I don't suggest for one second my opinion is fair or right, but it is the perspective I view it from. - I accept that others feel differently and, as such, I think it could be a little unfair to consider my opinion mean-spirited or worse!

Many years ago, I read a book by an author who went on to be very, very successful. Being kind, it could have been called a 'tribute' to Tolkien, being less kind, it could have been described as an unimaginative copy. - What really annoyed me is that this guy had been granted a prodigious amount of talent, and I would love to have seen what _his_ imagination could have come up.

I lose sleep over words left unwritten. - I see talent at different stages of development right across this site, and I pray that a mass of good quality and original titles spring forth from them. - I'd be more than a little distressed, from a selfish point of view, if they focussed that talent towards adding to another author's legacy.


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## Bruno Spatola (Feb 9, 2014)

You have to make the assumption that people who write fan fiction don't write _any_ _other_ kind of fiction for it to be a waste of talent, or poorly channeled talent, but there's not any data to go on there, really. I doubt much research is being carried out. 

I certainly wouldn't get distressed if someone wrote a story based in a universe they didn't create. If it was really good I'd congratulate them, then say, "right, now do it again . . . from scratch." 

If they're just doing it for fun, which they clearly are, generally, then I really couldn't give a shit. The stories seem to circulate in relatively small communities consisting of passionate fans, simply desperate for more and more content (I mean that in a nice way.) I won't lose sleep over people writing out their fantasies.

Make money from it on the sly? Shame on them, yeah, but that for me is the very extreme end of the spectrum, and we can speculate endlessly about situations that could arise out of that, but, for now, it's harmless fun.


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## Gavrushka (Feb 9, 2014)

A appreciate your position, and the assumption is not relating to a single fan fiction writer, but the combined potential creative talent. - I've stated my opinion in a non-confrontational way, and my acceptance of other people's views. 

I'll try not to get too distressed about what I see as wasted talent, but thanks for the well-meaning sympathetic comments! LOL


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## Bruno Spatola (Feb 9, 2014)

I don't respect opinions themselves, but the people who give them intelligently. I'm not in a confrontational mood at all, so I apologize if my comments seemed to have a sharp edge to them. This isn't a debate, after all, just a conversation (to me.)

I'm a huge comic book and video game fan, so my stance on this topic was always going to lean more towards a positive view of fan fic, because I've had so many great experiences with it. _Batman: Arkham Asylum_ springs to mind, _Prince of Persia_, the _Alice_ games, and of course a tonne of comics.

It nearly always doesn't work out, though. I can list far more failures than successes in this genre, but I haven't read much of the unofficial stuff.


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## Gavrushka (Feb 9, 2014)

Hell no, I was amused. For someone who is trying to write, I don't articulate myself very well at times and laugh at the misunderstandings I cause. - My point (made poorly) is I do fret (yes get distressed) at the talent that I feel could produce some great literary works, which could be published. (I may be wrong but much fan fiction, I understand, has a dubious legal position so cannot be distributed - clarity would be great on this)


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## Arcopitcairn (Feb 9, 2014)

Bruno Spatola said:


> If they're written well and interesting, I don't really care if they're not purely original.
> 
> I might as well just burn most of my comic collection if fan fiction is so unlikable. I didn't throw _Batman: Year One_ out the window when I saw Frank Miller credited on the front, I read it and enjoyed it. If it works for me, it works for me; that's _all_ _I_ _care about_.
> 
> Frankenweenie



Good point, and well worth thinking about. I would venture that Frank Miller was a professional writer tasked with an officially sanctioned adaptation or continuation of Batman. He was not just some person. Perhaps there really is a talent quotient to take into account. Maybe there are a few really awesome fanfictions out there that continue characters or fill in gaps in canon. But all I ever hear about is usually erotic fiction.

Somebody mentioned Marty McFly in an earlier post. I like the Back to The Future movies. I like Marty McFly. For me, I can accept that those movies encapsulate that characters entire arc. I don't need any more than that. That's his whole story. Those films are the beginning and the end of Marty McFly. Now I can see the need some people have to continue the character because they like him, but I guess it's not for me. Unless maybe it's very expertly done.

Is fanfiction mostly a clearing house for bad writing? Maybe that's something to consider. I mean you have professionals coming up with all the characters, all the motivations, building your worlds for you, all the back story, everything you need to build off of if you have very little talent and imagination. Writers who have nothing original to offer, maybe that's the only way they can express themselves, through the work of another.

It is a valid point though, as I've gathered from previous posts in this thread, that if you have a novice writer, someone who has little talent or imagination, maybe starting with fanfiction will get them writing and make them good enough technically, and help them creatively to be able to make something useful on their own. I can accept that. Bad writers getting better and learning a craft through something they love. Fine and dandy.

But when you have a writer who has real talent writing japanimation sex stories, or video game slash, there you have a person, while technically proficient in the nuts and bolts of writing, has nothing else to offer in any way original or creative. There is no real art in a person like that, in my estimation. But, if it makes them happy...

Then again, I may be talking out of my butt, because I have been known to create fan-art, which seems like a different animal to me. Hypocritical? I don't know.


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## The Tourist (Feb 9, 2014)

Bruno Spatola said:


> You have to make the assumption that people who write fan fiction don't write _any_ _other_ kind of fiction for it to be a waste of talent



Yes, I do believe that, but many times you have to take the discussion out of the area we love, and show parallels on a wider stage.

For example, if you collect knives and hang out on either the manufacturer's site or in hobbyist forums you'll see there is usually a section called something like, "Fakes, and how to spot them."  If you like Cobra sports cars you'll also know that some kits come with fiberglass bodies and use Chevy engines.  Flea markets are constantly raided for Chinese knock-off blue jeans.

The world hates fakes.

As to the waste of talent, here's my slant.  A guy who is a good enough cutler and has the milling machines could easily make his own knives.  So instead he gets up and makes a second rate copy of an Emerson (?)  And let's be honest, copies are never as good as the original, because they are missing the one thing that made them desirable--the hand of the creator.

So let's assume that there is "good fan-fic constructer."  If a hack can construct something that appeals even to a small segment of the public, shouldn't he be good enough to write his own stories?  I mean, we just had a thread where one writer lamented his work only got a few hits.  

Don't kid yourself, people can tell.  Picasso once walked into a man's home, and the owner bragged he had a work by the artist.  But Picasso knew it was a forgery from across the room.  The urban legend says that he took the fraud and painted over it so the owner would really have an original.  But the premise stands, a fake is a fake.

Ever tell your wife you loved her as you gave her a cubic zirconia from Sears?  With Valentine's Day coming up, it might be good to ponder it...LOL

http://jungletraining.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?55-Counterfeits-amp-Fakes


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## SarahStrange (Feb 9, 2014)

Many people are saying things like "They should..." "I think they should..." "It's a waste of talent..."

But here's the thing: Who can tell another person what to do? Because if writing fan fiction makes someone happy, then it's not a waste. Ever. If it makes them feel fulfilled, then who can possibly judge them with notions of "wasteful"? 

Talent doesn't _have_ to be public. It doesn't have to please other people besides its holder. It doesn't have to sit on shelves and associate with other 'original talent' to be worthwhile. All it has to do, is make one person feel happy or fulfilled. And if it can do that, then it is astronomically distant from "wasteful" and infinitesimally close to _wholeheartedly_ worth it.


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## The Tourist (Feb 9, 2014)

SarahStrange said:


> But here's the thing: Who can tell another person what to do?



And as a redneck, freedom loving Amurkin gadfly I would never imply that.

I'm not proffering we ban the stuff, but I do wish there was more creativity in creative writing.  And the trend to defend drek confuses me.  To me, it's like prancing onto a Lamborghini forum and drooling for pages about your Yugo.

Yet, we defend strong female archers, zombies, video game plots and now rip-offs.  I don't understand the race to the bottom.  But hey, it's your time wasted, not mine.


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 9, 2014)

The Tourist said:


> And the trend to defend drek confuses me.  To me, it's like prancing onto a Lamborghini forum and drooling for pages about your Yugo.



That is nothing more than the constant drum banging of those who are willing to accept mediocrity. Unfortunately, they are becoming the majority in this country. 

But that's a subject for another day and another forum.


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## shadowwalker (Feb 9, 2014)

I've written a great deal of fanfic. It was how I got back into writing after many years away from it. It allows me to try new things, explore ideas, hone my skills. Whether some choose to believe it or not, many published authors still write fanfic, and many published authors got their start in fanfic. Owners of the original are, in many cases, not unhappy with fanfic and many actively encourage it. Amazon now sells fanfic in specific areas.

Fanfic (other than Amazon's opportunism) cannot be sold. Authors cannot make one red cent from it. The largest fanfic site specifically forbids fanfic of certain works because the owners have stated they do not want it done. It is not a "womanly" thing - whatever the heck that's supposed to mean. It is not laziness or a lack of creativity - a lot of hard work goes into writing good stories. But like _any _writing, some writers do that work, others don't. It is not theft since disclaimers are made, ownership acknowledged, and no money is lost to the originals. 

I don't care if people don't like fanfic. I don't like it when they make blanket statements about fanfic writers as if we were all teeny-bopper slobs gushing over our words as if they were penned in silk, but if that's how they stroke their own egos, go ahead. I think a great many of these folks would be surprised at the quality out there, and at the published authors who, as I stated earlier, either started in fanfic or continue. But obviously those folks don't count, for purposes of rhetoric...

Now I've said my piece - back to your bashing, folks. Enjoy.


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## Bruno Spatola (Feb 9, 2014)

Lumping everything into an easy-to-digest bite of information is convenient, but not very intelligent, sadly. I wish we could just say video game plots are rubbish and fan fiction is a pile of bad fakes and Americans are fat and OJ did it and be correct without reasoning beyond the knee-jerk, but the world doesn't work how you want it to, and nothing is as simple as it seems.

There's not a car or knife analogy you can make that could convince me otherwise.


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## The Tourist (Feb 9, 2014)

T.S.Bpwman said:


> mediocrity...But that's a subject for another day and another forum.



Let me make room for you on my Group W Bench.

I see lots of those cyber medals we award to members for excellence.  We should design one for groundbreaking creativity, but hand it out sparingly thus elevating its status to the literary version of the CMoH.

Tell people they can't have something and they'll beat any odds to obtain it.


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## Deleted member 33527 (Feb 9, 2014)

The only fan fiction that has ever bothered me is 50 Shades of Grey, and that's because it is such blatant plagiarism but E.L. James gets away with it because Stephenie Meyer is too classy to sue her. The scenes in this book are exactly the same scenes in Twilight!

Fan fiction in itself is harmless, and can even be fun for some people who want to get more out of a story that has already been written and completed. I'll refer to Twilight again as an example - a lot of fans were disappointed with the way Stephenie Meyer ended the series with Breaking Dawn, so they live in a kind of limbo where Breaking Dawn never actually happened and are still hung up on the unresolved events in Eclipse (the third book in the series), so they write their own stories and share them on the internet for those who were unsatisfied with BD. 

The difference between this kind of fan fiction and something like 50 Shades of Grey is that it's not the same story being retold with different names, and no one is trying to make money off of it. It's for the free enjoyment of the fans. 

I don't read a lot of fan fiction, but I've read discussions about how authors don't do justice to the characters and the world they've created, so the fans think they can (and often do) write it better than the author. 

Here's a quote about fan fiction from a blog on tumblr:



> "To an extent it’s a problem with fandom: the fact is that you’ve got thousands of intelligent people thinking about a problem, and statistically speaking some of them are likely to come up with something more clever than the creators. […] There comes a point at which, frankly, fandom IS better than the creators. We have more minds, more cumulative talent, more voices arguing for different kinds of representation, more backstory… The thing is that I rarely get involved with a show without a fandom anymore, because I actually enjoy the analysis and fic and fun more than I enjoy the show itself. Similarly, I get drawn into shows I otherwise wouldn’t really consider by the strength of their fandom. And I want the shows to live up to their fandom, but it’s an almost impossibly high bar, because the parts of fandom I choose to engage with are often parts that wouldn’t be considered sufficiently accessible or relevant to a majority of viewers. So… basically, for me, fandom is primary, and canon is secondary. The latter is really only there to facilitate the former."
> 
> http://glitterarygetsit.tumblr.com/post/73200134390/to-an-extent-its-a-problem-with-fandom-the-fact


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## Deleted member 33527 (Feb 9, 2014)

I forgot to say that it's perfectly understandable why you dislike fan fiction. It could be considered creative laziness to write a story based on someone else's idea rather than coming up with a story on your own. Though from what I've read, a lot of fan fiction writers _do_ put effort into their stories. If nothing else, I guess it's good writing practice.


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## The Tourist (Feb 9, 2014)

Dreamworx95 said:


> Though from what I've read, a lot of fan fiction writers _do_ put effort into their stories. If nothing else, I guess it's good writing practice.



Would you feel that same way if a cute guy used the same pick-up line on you that he did when talking to your sister?

Same deal.  We love the written word.  We should respect it more, and this ain't it.


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## Kyle R (Feb 9, 2014)

Well said, Shadow. 

I think those who disapprove of fan-fiction have to understand that it's written by fans, for fans, for free. Like Sarah hinted at, it's not only harmless, it's also on the "pure" end of creative writing, in terms of motivation.

The fans like reading it. The fans like writing it. Sounds good to me. 

I think it's not only a mistake but also insulting to misalign fan-fiction writers with terms such as "mediocre", "dreck", or "hacks." If they want to write a story about their favorite character for their online friends, what's the harm in that?

If we start judging other writers for how and what they write for fun, we're stepping beyond our boundaries as not only writers, but individuals as well, in my opinion. I'd be pretty darn offended if anyone tried to tell me what I could or couldn't write about for my own (and other's) enjoyment, just as I'm sure anyone else here would.

I understand how writers can feel offended at the notion of someone taking their creations and using them in their own ways, but I think if you view it through a certain lens—that it's not for profit, but only for fun and the enjoyment of other fans as a celebration of the original work—you'll see that it's not so bad at all. 

That's my perspective, at least! :encouragement:


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## Gavrushka (Feb 9, 2014)

I was too excited when I saw a post from shadowwalker to focus on her words! In my first weeks on this site, her posts were the highlights of my visits. Never gift-wrapped, but always well presented, one of the best contributors this site has/had... Quick, lock the door before she escapes!!


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## SarahStrange (Feb 9, 2014)

> I think it's not only a mistake but also insulting to misalign fan-fiction writers with terms such as "mediocre", "dreck", or "hacks." If they want to write a story about their favorite character for their online friends, what's the harm in that?
> 
> If we start judging other writers for how and what they write for fun, we're stepping beyond our boundaries as not only writers, but individuals as well, in my opinion. I'd be pretty darn offended if anyone tried to tell me what I could or couldn't write about for my own (and other's) enjoyment, just as I'm sure anyone else here would.
> 
> I understand how writers can feel offended at the notion of someone taking their creations and using them in their own ways, but I think if you view it through a certain lens—that it's not for profit, but only for fun and the enjoyment of other fans as a celebration of the original work—you'll see that it's not so bad at all.



Basically, all of this.


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## The Tourist (Feb 9, 2014)

Okay, I hear you.  I will now stop calling them hacks and find a more appropriate term.

Thieves.

(It's easy to be complacent about this until they steal from you.  Perhaps we should contact the authors and screenwriters of the stolen intellectual property and find out how much revenue is owed.  Don't laugh.  Disney has a very hard line about this stuff.   And as for their lawsuits, they stick.  I see no reason why all of these fan-boys should be allowed to steal.  It would be a good lesson in civics, and the best part, since it's my idea, I get to write the book and docu-drama.)


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## Jeko (Feb 9, 2014)

'Books are well written, or badly written. That is all.' - Oscar Wilde

I do not see fan-fiction as beneficial to a writer's development. It's like running with only one of your legs - hopping races can be fun, but they aren't for the professional field. The way I see it, you don't have to write something well when writing fan-fiction - you only have to satisfy your desire to tell the story the way you want to; else you might as well be writing something of your own. Hence, I do not support the writing of fan-fiction for growing writers.

I'd rather people read into their favourite works more rather than fantasize about them on paper. But that's just me.


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## Jeko (Feb 9, 2014)

> Thieves.



That term applies to all writers.


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## SarahStrange (Feb 9, 2014)

> _Thieves.
> _
> 
> That term applies to all writers.



Exactly. No matter how original and special you think you are, I _guarantee _that your super original, oh-so-amazing, idea has been done before somewhere, at sometime, by someone else no matter how stridently you object.


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## Jeko (Feb 9, 2014)

> No matter how original and special you think you are, I _guarantee that your super original, oh-so-amazing, idea has been done before somewhere, at sometime, by someone else no matter how stridently you object._



In fact, the only way we make our stories so brilliant is through top-notch thievery and vandalism.


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## The Tourist (Feb 9, 2014)

Oh, on this matter I am dead serious.  I worked with attorneys for almost thirty years.

The classic case was a bar owner who was nicknamed Sleepy or Dopey.  On the front door of his saloon he had a caricature of Snow White and a dwarf as his logo.  A traveling Disney exec saw the door, made a call to their corporate attorney and had the guy sued blue.

It might only be a story to you, but to the owner of this intellectual property and any other revenue stream, it's a "brand."  You malign the product, an attorney will argue you diminished the brand, and you will be ordered to pay damages.

There's even a reference to such an act in the movie "The Electric Horseman."  A breakfast food company hires a washed-up rodeo star (Robert Redford) to wear a suit of lights into venues on a former racing thoroughbred.  The horse is in pain, shot up with drugs, and Redford kidnaps the horse to save him.

The story goes public, and the cereal company's stock drops.  When asked about the loss, the CEO laments, _"If it looks like we mishandled the horse it implies we mishandled the company..."_

This is no joke.  That funny little lark you typed up on your blog is in a permanent record in some server farm.  If they go after you, you'll lose.  And just remember what judges say, _"Ignorance of the law is  no excuse."_


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## SarahStrange (Feb 9, 2014)

> Oh, on this matter I am dead serious. I worked with attorneys for almost thirty years.



Because the copyright law on this sort of topic is so murky, most fan fiction lawsuits deal heavily in fair use, which is determined by: 



> _       (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;__(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
> (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
> (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work._​



If the piece being discussed is not being sold, is not detrimental to the brand, and does not limit the market for the original piece.... there's really not a legal leg to stand on.


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## The Tourist (Feb 9, 2014)

There's nothing murky on this.  An attorney files a suit for damages, not infringement.

I'm sure you've heard of the original Lone Ranger, Clayton Moore.  He used to wear his old costume and do supermarket openings.  When a new movie came out with a younger actor, the movie company's attorney took Clayton Moore to court to bar him from wearing the mask.  The judge ruled that Moore's actions could damage the movie, and ordered him--the original Lone Ranger--to cease and desist dressing as the hero.

Moore had to wear large black sunglasses during this idiocy.

To this day, I have a business attorney and a criminal attorney.  And while my book will never become a movie, if the work is maligned I'll sue the fan-boy into the ground like a carriage bolt.  Copyright infringement will be the least of his worries.


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 9, 2014)

The Tourist said:


> Okay, I hear you.  I will now stop calling them hacks and find a more appropriate term.
> 
> Thieves.



I don't think they're thieves until they impact my net assets.  A more appropriate word is "free advertising".


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## SarahStrange (Feb 9, 2014)

> ...if the work is maligned I'll sue the fan-boy into the ground like a carriage bolt. Copyright infringement will be the least of his worries.






*Easily understood diagram: 
*


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 9, 2014)

Since my WIP draws heavily from Norse myth, does that mean that I stole from the old Norse?  One of my characters is Thor.  Did I steal from Marvel?  My character isn't named 'Thor', he's named 'Donny', which derives from 'Doner', which was a _kenning_ (an alternate name) for Thor.  Does that mean my work is fanfic?


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## The Tourist (Feb 9, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> I don't think they're thieves until they impact my net assets.  A more appropriate word is "free advertising".



You hope the bounce you get will be positive--but what if it's not?

Play out all the things that can go bad.  Things can go viral now, and before your first book tour is over a girl with duck lips is panning your work in gay satire.  Your publisher calls and says B&N can't move your book, and they return the first printing.

So, let me guess this straight.  You shrug, say to everyone, "Hey it was only the work of a few years and the loss of an advance--that's the way the cookie crumbles..."

Yeah, right.  Suddenly it's not just a zit-faced teen in mom's basement.  Now it's business.  My guess is that you'll turn the dogs loose and never feel a tinge of regret.  It's amusing when it's a lark in the forum, it's serious when it's a real livelihood.


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 9, 2014)

The Tourist said:


> You hope the bounce you get will be positive--but what if it's not?
> 
> Play out all the things that can go bad.  Things can go viral now, and before your first book tour is over a girl with duck lips is panning your work in gay satire.  Your publisher calls and says B&N can't move your book, and they return the first printing.
> 
> ...



Do you have any real world example of this happening?


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## The Tourist (Feb 9, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> Do you have any real world example of this happening?



That was the point of the Clayton Moore issue.  If the courts aren't afraid to go after him, they won't think twice about going after a kid and his lap-top.

Do you honestly think the entire corporate structure surrounding those drawing a salary from The Hunger Games is going to regret ruining you or me?  My guess is that they won't even use a partner to seek revenge, maybe an associate and a few paralegals--you know, just for target practice.

Entertainment law firms are some of the biggest practices in this country.  To them, you're a bug on the windshield.


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 9, 2014)

Clayton Moore was an actor, not the writer.  The product in no way belonged to him.  On the flip-side, he took no money away from Hollywood.


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## The Tourist (Feb 9, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> Clayton Moore was an actor, not the writer.  The product in no way belonged to him.  On the flip-side, he took no money away from Hollywood.



You're missing the point.  It's not the target that started the suit, it was protecting a work of art that was deemed to have a value.  Moore complied.  Had he resisted he'd have been back in court.

But if you feel you know better, by all means, steal from whoever you want.  We live in a litigious society now.  A few years back tabloids could print whatever they wanted.  When attorneys convinced actors that they themselves were the brand, the celebrities hit back.  Tom Cruise and Carol Burnett now fight everything.

Certainly this forum has business attorneys.  Let's get one of the owners or the moderators to bounce it off their litigators.  This isn't funny guys.  Even the bankrupt companies I worked for trying to resurrect the corporation had a full staff of attorneys, and they were some of the last employees to get laid off.

We used to say, _"You don't tip over a man's rice bowl."_


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 9, 2014)

The Tourist said:


> You're missing the point.  It's not the target that started the suit, it was protecting a work of art that was deemed to have a value.  Moore complied.  Had he resisted he'd have been back in court.
> 
> But if you feel you know better, by all means, steal from whoever you want.  We live in a litigious society now.  A few years back tabloids could print whatever they wanted.  When attorneys convinced actors that they themselves were the brand, the celebrities hit back.  Tom Cruise and Carol Burnett now fight everything.
> 
> ...



So, you don't have an answer to my earlier question?  You proposed earlier that an author might not be able to sell their work because of fanfic.  You can't name an author to whom that has actually happened?


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## shadowwalker (Feb 9, 2014)

Some people are also mixing up trademark with copyright. So all this "I know the legal stuff, dude!" is kinda ridiculous. But don't let that stop you...


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## InstituteMan (Feb 9, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> Some people are also mixing up trademark with copyright. So all this "I know the legal stuff, dude!" is kinda ridiculous. But don't let that stop you...



Bingo. I am an IP attorney, I have represented clients in these kinds of lawsuits. I cannot possibly get into all the differences and details, and I cannot give legal advice, but the copyright vs. trademark distinction matters a bunch here. Not enforcing a trademark destroys the owner's rights, so trademark owners err on the side of enforcement. Copyrights have a different cost/benefit analysis.


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## Kyle R (Feb 9, 2014)

Hmm!

The majority of fan-fiction, as far as I know, is protected by the fair-use doctrine. The only time it really comes into question is if the work is being produced and distributed for profit, which most of it isn't.

There's the Organization for Transformative Works, a non-profit organization that supports and promotes fan-fiction and fan-works. One member of the board for that organization is Professor Rebecca Tushnet, a professor at Georgetown University Law, who teaches intellectual property, advertising, and First Amendment Law. She also writes fan-fiction.

It kind of shows that if a professor who teaches intellectual property law supports fan-fiction, and is a board member of an organization that promotes it, it can't be _that_ bad! 

I think the two main distinctions in establishing a fan-fiction work's legality are:

Derivative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work) versus Transformative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformation_(law))

and

Profit versus Non-profit.

So, I think the easiest breakdown would be to say: As long as it's transformative and not for profit, fan-fiction is legally okay. :encouragement:


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 9, 2014)

The Tourist said:


> Let me make room for you on my Group W Bench.



Huh?


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