# For all you good people who abso-tively believe that conflict is needed in a story…



## The Backward OX (Sep 12, 2011)

…might I suggest you read this:


A Year in Suburbia ~ Guy Bellamy

ISBN 978-0-7090-8496-9

It contains *NO* conflict, and my guess is that his 12 other novels would be the same.


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## Sam (Sep 12, 2011)

"The year starts badly for Mark Hutton, who finds that his wife has left  him on New Year's Eve. His mood isn't improved when an old friend  arrives from Australia and insists on organizing a reunion dinner with  the boys who were in their class at school. That evening ends in  tragedy, though Mark discovers that one of the guests has married the  girl he fell in love with all those years ago. The guest also produces a  family photograph with his son, who bears a startling resemblance to  Mark. *Closeted in his own small and unprofitable bookshop, Mark wrestles  with his problems—romantic, professional, and social.* But he soon  discovers that a lot can happen in a year."

I emboldened the important part for you, OX. Mark wrestling with his problems is a form of internal conflict. Conflict doesn't have to mean people fighting and arguing.


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## The Backward OX (Sep 12, 2011)

Yeah, well, that’s just the jacket blurb, isn’t it? You don’t want to believe everything you read, Sam. I’m the one who read the book, and I didn’t notice too much wrestling going on anywhere.


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## JosephB (Sep 12, 2011)

I'm not buying it. I'm more inclined to think that you're just not picking up on it. You've said many times you have a hard time empathizing and relating to people's feelings and emotions -- so I'm betting the conflict has to do with those things. You're just not feeling it.


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## The Backward OX (Sep 12, 2011)

You may be right Joe. Give me a story about animals any day. They get me, every time.


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## JosephB (Sep 12, 2011)

That's really interesting, OX -- and in fact, I've actually noticed that in various threads about cats etc. and wondered about it.


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## Rustgold (Sep 12, 2011)

He's supposedly a comic novel writer _(which doesn't need fighting)_, plus Amazon online doesn't even appear to be selling it (used copies only available).  Nor does he have an active fan club.

Edit : The book has all rights available, so it isn't in print.


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## Syren (Sep 12, 2011)

It is simple enough to see that a story doesn't require conflict.

I could narrate the adventure of a young boy on a trip through the woods, void of conflict or obstacle. A simple romp, joyous sights and sounds. A light and simple story. 

Doesn't mean that it would be the most entertaining work though... we read stories in order to relate ourselves to them. It is a form of communication, pointed at community and connection. As such, we hunger for conflict as it stirs us in a way that simple joy can not. We relate through our pains and triumphs. The struggle is universal.

At least that's how I see it.


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## BobbyKing (Sep 12, 2011)

A story can be written without conflicts.. but can it survive in the market? Will there be readers paying attention to it? :scratch:
IMO, any written story caters to some segment of readers but it does not appeal to ALL readers.  :?
We need to identify what we want to write and who we want to read as well...


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## Rustgold (Sep 13, 2011)

Syren said:


> It is simple enough to see that a story doesn't require conflict.


@Anybody : Name one successful novel in the last 15 years that doesn't have it.

I'll make it easier.  Name one successful novel in the last 15 years that hasn't had external conflict.


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## The Backward OX (Sep 13, 2011)

Rustgold said:


> @Anybody : Name one successful novel in the last 15 years that doesn't have it.
> 
> I'll make it easier. Name one successful novel in the last 15 years that hasn't had external conflict.



Go back and read my opening post, make notes, get yourself down to the library, obtain the book, read and inwardly digest. 

And if you query "successful", google Guy Bellamy.


I didn't use up my valuable time creating a thread that's a nonsense.


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## Sam (Sep 13, 2011)

Syren said:


> It is simple enough to see that a story doesn't require conflict.
> 
> I could narrate the adventure of a young boy on a trip through the woods, void of conflict or obstacle. A simple romp, joyous sights and sounds. A light and simple story.



Of course you could, but it would be boring. Imagine a TV show or movie bereft of conflict, where every character got exactly what they wanted and faced no danger or problems at any point. Would you watch it? What would be the point? The human psyche is designed to leech off conflict. Without conflict, either internal or external, you haven't got a story. What you have is a recollection of good memories. 

Most TV series have 20-24 episodes per season. If we apply your logic, that no conflict is necessary, those series would require one episode. Introduce good guy, introduce bad guy, should good guy triumphing without any bother. Likewise, apply that logic to novels and they'd be finished inside fifty pages. 

Conflict is, to borrow OX's above phrase, abso-tively _essential _in any work of fiction.


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## Bluesman (Sep 13, 2011)

I have just read up on Mr Bellamy and the book you mention. It,s sounds entertaining and a musing on life and it,s problems also the journey as we travel through it.

I like books with wit, humour and feelings we all feel every day. i,m sure there are lots more writers in the world who can write a good yarn without lots of blood and guts and heart ache.

But we humans seem to thrive on adversity and things that draw every ounce of our strength. We love winners, people who over come the odds and survive. I think it,s easier to write about such things in terms of conflict and battles rather than in terms of human discovery or internal strife or indeed situation. It's a very interesting point and the answer is in the eye of the beholder.

 hope this makes sense


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## Rustgold (Sep 13, 2011)

The Backward OX said:


> Go back and read my opening post, make notes, get yourself down to the library, obtain the book, read and inwardly digest.
> And if you query "successful", google Guy Bellamy.
> 
> I didn't use up my valuable time creating a thread that's a nonsense.


Fan club inactive (my younger sister gets a bigger response with 'nose is stuffe up, going early to bed').
Latest book (the book you've mentioned) not even in print, nor for sale (except for used copies).
Agent has book you've listed as all rights available (in other words no publisher is touching it).
Unable to even sell it as a comedy (which shouldn't require as much depth as other types of novels).
No books of his within last 14? odd years (not looking back up) even registering in Amazon's top (1 million?) selling list.

Hardly screams successful to me.
Next.


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## The Backward OX (Sep 13, 2011)

Rustgold said:


> Fan club inactive (my younger sister gets a bigger response with 'nose is stuffe up, going early to bed').
> Latest book (the book you've mentioned) not even in print, nor for sale (except for used copies).
> Agent has book you've listed as all rights available (in other words no publisher is touching it).
> Unable to even sell it as a comedy (which shouldn't require as much depth as other types of novels).
> ...



Why does everyone only ever think Amazon?

I have had to get up off my ****, go out to the lounge, and bring this back to the ‘puter:

© Guy Bellamy 2007
First Published in Great Britain 2007
ISBN 978-0-7090-8496-9
Robert Hale Ltd
Clerkenwell House
Clerkenwell Green
London EC1R 0HT
www.halebooks.com​


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## Rustgold (Sep 13, 2011)

And Clerkenwell House obviously regretted every moment of that by the fact the rights were handed back to the agent.

Quote Andrew Lownie Literary Agents Andrew Lownie Literary Agency :: Book :: A Year in Suburbia : "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*

[h=2]RIGHTS SOLD[/h]

All rights are available
*[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*"
*[/FONT]Next


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## The Backward OX (Sep 13, 2011)

I don't even know what that means. I assume you do. Perhaps you'd care to enlighten a Philistine like me.


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## garza (Sep 13, 2011)

Searches at the publisher's website for 'Bellamy' and for 'A Year in Suburbia' yielded, in each instance, the following message:

*No Search Results* 		There were no matches for your search in the database. Please try again.


A book published less than four years ago (December 2007) should be in the publisher's database, unless the publisher sincerely regrets ever having anything to do with it. That's an unfair assessment, however, given Bellamy's obvious success over the years. If it's out of print, that would probably be the explanation.

The key to comedy is conflict. A joke is funny only when the punch line releases tension developed in the build-up. When the rabbi enters the bar with a chicken under his arm, there's an internal tightening of the mental muscles as we try, consciously or unconsciously, to leap ahead, to anticipate the end of the story. Usually we are unsuccessful. We are in conflict in our own minds over what the reason could be for the rabbi's action. When the punch line comes it snaps the strings, releases the tension, ending the internal conflict, which relaxes into laughter. 

'Didn't see that one coming, did you?' comments the successful raconteur. Indeed we didn't, and that's the point of the story.


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## garza (Sep 13, 2011)

'All Rights Available' means anyone may buy the rights from the present owner and republish the book. If the original publisher has sold all rights then that would explain why the book is no longer in the publisher's database. The original publisher no longer owns the rights to the book.


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## The Backward OX (Sep 13, 2011)

Thank you


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## Bilston Blue (Sep 13, 2011)

> *A Year in Suburbia
> *
> *The year starts badly for Mark Hutton* *who finds that his wife has left him for no reason* on New Year's Eve. His mood isn't improved when an *old friend arrives from Australia and insists on organising a reunion dinner for the boys who were in their class at school*.* That evening ends in tragedy,* but throws up a ray of hope for Mark who *discovers that one of the guests has married the girl he fell in love with all those years ago*. And *when he produces a family photograph the son bears a startling resemblance to Mark*.Closeted in his own small and unprofitable bookshop, he wrestles with his problems - romantic, professional and social. And what he discovers is that a lot can happen in a year...



I haven't read the thing, but if you can't find conflict in that lot then...:-k


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## Rustgold (Sep 13, 2011)

garza said:


> A book published less than four years ago (December 2007) should be in the publisher's database, unless the publisher sincerely regrets ever having anything to do with it. That's an unfair assessment, however, given Bellamy's obvious success over the years. If it's out of print, that would probably be the explanation.


Which of course leads back to the question of whether there's been any successful novels of this kind within the last 15 years.


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## starseed (Sep 13, 2011)

Bilston Blue said:


> I haven't read the thing, but if you can't find conflict in that lot then...:-k


\


Agree.... all I see in that description is conflict...

I think it would be difficult to write a story without conflict. It doesn't have to be weight-of-the-world-rests-on-so and so's-shoulders sort of conflict. But conflict is there. Even if a character is just sitting bored in a room, that's conflict. He's bored. He needs resolution to that boredom. Boom, conflict. Enter story, to resolve conflict. The end.


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## Syren (Sep 14, 2011)

I think that we all agree that conflict is what makes a story a good story.

But I think we can all agree that a story doesn't require conflict to be a story.

Doesn't matter what opinion you hold on who wrote what and if this was as good as that.

Fact is, conflict is not required in "story".


Hemingway wrote a short story. I think we all agree that Ernest was a prolific and lauded writer, yes?

"For sale: Baby shoes, never worn."


Now, we can debate the quality of the story until we're blue in the face, but a story it is. Conflict? I think it alludes to conflict, but the writing itself has none.

So, an example of a story, written by a noted author, sans conflict.

Good, bad and other is a new topic.



Google and three seconds.


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## Rustgold (Sep 14, 2011)

Talk about being pedantic.
So technically you can write a novel without conflict.  But it'll be complete garbage that will never be successful.  We're still yet to see one example of a successful modern novel without conflict.

I go one step further in suggesting there hasn't been a successful novel of the last 15 years which hasn't had external conflict in it.  We've had an example of a flop, but not one that wasn't.  I don't mind being proved wrong, but we need a actual example of a successful novel first.  Anybody...


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## The Backward OX (Sep 14, 2011)

Rustgold said:


> I go one step further in suggesting there hasn't been a successful novel of the last 15 years which hasn't had external conflict in it. We've had an example of a flop, but not one that wasn't. I don't mind being proved wrong, but we need a actual example of a successful novel first. Anybody...



You were told all this in the OP. Doesn't the Ipswich City Council budget run to a library?

Home > Arts & Entertainment > Books
*Mine's a large Groping and Trauma: Simon Melber meets Guy Bellamy, whose best-selling comic novels chronicle the temptations that afflict the British abroad *
SIMON MELBER 

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WHAT is the connection between a British Rail sandwich and a novel? No idea? Nor has Guy Bellamy, whose two new books are currently being advertised on one million Travellers Fare paper bags. It's an unusual gimmick, but Bellamy isn't convinced: 'People will probably hate the sandwich and say, 'I don't like the bag either' '.

Guy Bellamy is the best-selling novelist whose books are compulsory holiday reading for those heading for the sun. His new novel The Comedy Hotel (Viking pounds 14.99) has recently been published, together with the paperback edition of A Village Called Sin (Penguin pounds 4.99). His success can be attributed in part to the British affection for Spain, in particular the Costa Del Sol. His novels adhere to a strict principle: 'show me a place where the sun shines all day, and I'll show you a bar full of miserable Brits'. But while the G & Ts flow freely in his books, they are not always of the alcoholic kind. Groping and Traumas tend to disrupt the drinking hours of those seeking solace in a popular paradise.

Spain has featured a lot in Bellamy's life too. The palm-tree growing in his garden in Surrey and a fridge full of San Miguel testify to his enthusiasm. His face is tanned from Spanish sunshine, and has that lived-in look. A cigarette is never more than a couple of minutes away from his lips. He is reticent about revealing his age, but admits to spending two years in the RAF on National Service, which only confirmed his desire to become a journalist, 'to write about just how bad the experience really was'. His best friend from National Service days wagered that he wouldn't make it in journalism. 'I won that bet.'

Betting is one of Guy Bellamy's hobbies. In one corner of his garden sits a barbecue. Nothing remarkable there, except that this one cost pounds 4,000 and was won in a bet. 'I have the most extraordinary bets, I have to keep lists of them.' He reaches into his pocket and pulls out a tiny notebook. 'I've got pounds 20 at 10-1 that the Number One record next Christmas will be sung by a vicar from South London. I bet no one else has got that bet.'

There are other vices too. 'I can't deny,' he says, 'that bars are places I am very familiar with'. Once a sub-editor on the Daily Express, he now finds much of his inspiration in the pubs of Parnham, his home town. Those familiar with his books will know that his characters do the same.

There are no spies on his pages. His creations are utterly human and fallible. It's this plausibility that allows his sense of humour to run riot. 'You could count his friends on the fingers of one mitten,' says a barman in one of the books. The characters are solid and witty in an off-handed sort of way. Not for him the elaborately engineered plot; he prefers one- liners, delivered deadpan.

Then there's the question of money, a subject close to Bellamy's heart and a common theme in his novels. The fortune that should have accompanied his fame has, he claims, eluded him. 'If the royalty cheques were as good as the reviews I'd be quite comfortably off.' He certainly doesn't enjoy the lifestyle of his more flamboyant characters. His car, a rust-brown Scirocco, is seven years old. 'I've written eight books and I've still got an overdraft.'

For Guy Bellamy, novel writing was a natural progression from journalism. 'I've got this subversive idea,' he says, 'that all journalists want to write novels.' But success was not easily won. He gave up his post on the Daily Express and went to Spain to write a book. It was rejected and he returned home and took a job on the Sun. The tabloid style is still evident in the upbeat tempo of his plots, although 'I have to concentrate on writing longer sentences than I used to'. Critical success eventually came with the publication of The Secret Lemonade Drinker, but it was his second book, The Nudists, which put him on the best-seller list.

That had been his aim all along. Like any good gambler, he had studied the form - in this case the top 30 best-sellers - to see if there was a common ingredient. There was. 'Size is important,' he says. 'It's often a question of don't mind the quality, feel the width.' And pay the money, presumably, although Bellamy is always hoping for more: 'I think the thing about writing books is that you make a lot of money, but you have to be dead.' When I take issue, his face brightens. 'Do you want to bet?' 

And I repeat - regardless of what the jacket blurb says - A Year in Suburbia has NO conflict.


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## Rustgold (Sep 14, 2011)

The Backward OX said:


> You were told all this in the OP. Doesn't the Ipswich City Council budget run to a library?
> 
> And I repeat - regardless of what the jacket blurb says - A Year in Suburbia has NO conflict.



And I repeat, the book was a complete flop.  No need to take my word for it.




garza said:


> A book published less than four years ago (December 2007) should be in the publisher's database, unless the publisher sincerely regrets ever having anything to do with it. That's an unfair assessment, however, given Bellamy's obvious success over the years. If it's out of print, that would probably be the explanation.



No need to take Garza's assessment, go on the agent's own website.  All rights available means no publisher wants to touch it.  It's a failure of a book, simple as that; and no hype changes that fact.

That A Year in Suburbia is a complete flop adds weight to the belief that conflict is required.  So unless anybody can demonstrate a fiction novel without conflict that's been successful...


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## Lord Darkstorm (Sep 14, 2011)

I suspect, there is more conflict in this thread than was in that book.  Although I haven't read it, and from the description, I doubt I would want to.  Conflict is what we read stories for.  Can you write a novel without it, probably, but as many others have said, most of us wouldn't find it worth reading.  If you look at storytelling from a structural point of view, each scene should be designed to raise tension.  Building with every scene until at the end you have the resolution of all the built up tension (of which you need conflict of some kind to get).  The best stories do this well, and the not so good, well, they at least try.

I guess it comes down to the intended audience, if you want the few people who excite so easily they jump at a passing breeze, then low to no conflict might be good.  For everyone else, you need conflict.


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## Sam (Sep 14, 2011)

Syren said:


> I think that we all agree that conflict is what makes a story a good story.
> 
> But I think we can all agree that a story doesn't require conflict to be a story.
> 
> ...



Of course it does. A story without conflict is a recollection of good memories. Good fiction *cannot *exist without conflict. It is the core, fundamental aspect of any novel which has ever been written. The example you've given is a six-word 'story' which doesn't require conflict because there is no need for it. To write a novel without conflict, on the other hand, is a completely different ballgame. Despite OX's best arguments to the contrary, it has never been done. As Rustgold has pointed out already, if you can name a novel written in the last 15 years (heck, go back 50 years if you want) which is devoid of conflict, I will agree with you. The simple reality is that all fiction uses conflict, whether external or internal.


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## The Backward OX (Sep 14, 2011)

*Phooey*

I imagine, when you lot all say that a good/successful novel needs conflict, what you really mean is that a novel that any one of you personally would enjoy needs conflict. 

On the other hand, I personally can enjoy a novel without conflict. I quite enjoyed A Year in Suburbia. It may have been a flop in the minds of others *but it wasn’t a flop for me*.

Tell me this: why should I have to make my mind over, to become a carbon copy of the way yours works? 1984 was fiction.


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## The Backward OX (Sep 14, 2011)

You’re all clones of each other.


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## Lord Darkstorm (Sep 14, 2011)

1984 had conflict...quite a lot of it.  I'd bet that the book you love has a good bit of internal conflict.  You might not recognize it, but it is most likely there.  

Ask yourself this. Which author would you prefer to follow in the footsteps of? One who is known by a few, or someone like JK Rowling, who is quite well known and had many people waiting on each book in the series.  Not to mention she has more money than she knows what to do with.

While I doubt I will ever write anything as successful as Harry Potter, I do hope to actually publish a book one day that sells enough the publisher would be happy to see another submission by me.  Although, I don't think I'd mind having that much success.  :smiley_simmons:


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## Syren (Sep 14, 2011)

Why did this thread become "Give me a novel as an example?"

The OP and the title of this thread is about the possibility of writing a "STORY" without conflict.

If I ask you lot to bring me tea will you all clamor to do so?


A STORY DOES NOT REQUIRE CONFLICT.


A story relates information to someone else. How they interpret that information is going to be as varied as there are minds in the world.

Again, we're not talking about "good fiction" - how ridiculous are those threads - we're talking about the structure of a story and the varied ways it can be created.


I don't need to give you an example of a novel, primarily because that was not the point of the argument. Not only does it sidetrack the thread, it's completely irrelevant anyways. Unless we want to argue about what makes a novel "worthy". Fact is, the novel OX mentioned was published. So at some point, someone thought it was good enough to put out there. How many novels do the participants of this thread have in publication? Anyone? 

A story does not require conflict. Maybe your favorite novels do, but I didn't see that question in the OP.


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## The Backward OX (Sep 15, 2011)

Lord Darkstorm said:


> 1984 had conflict...quite a lot of it.


Who’s talking about a correlation between 1984 and conflict? _Not this little black duck._ All I said was that other posters seem to think I should think the way they think, which is what 1984 was partly about – mind control.


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## Sam (Sep 15, 2011)

Syren said:


> Why did this thread become "Give me a novel as an example?"
> 
> The OP and the title of this thread is about the possibility of writing a "STORY" without conflict.
> 
> ...



Do me a favour. Turn on the television and tune it to your local news station. Then, take out a pen and paper and write down the amount of stories which depict good news as opposed to bad. In fact, forget the pen and paper. You won't need it. Your local news is _rife _with conflict. Do you want to know why? Because conflict sells. How many millions of people stayed up through the night when 9/11 happened? How many millions watched 6/6 around the clock? 

That's conflict. Notice how they never have two experts who agree with each other? They're always bickering and fighting amongst themselves. Conflict. However, if you want to be completely pedantic and technical, yes you can write a story without conflict. No one said you couldn't. What I said was that conflict is _essential _to good fiction. It is what makes a novel intriguing, exciting, suspenseful. Imagine reading a horror novel where there's no threat to anyone and everyone always escapes the clutches of the monster. What would be the point? We can argue semantics until we're blue in the face, and I'll agree that writing a story does not require conflict, but you can be assured that the reason _A Year in Suburbia _has been discontinued is because very few people bought it. 



> How many novels do the participants of this thread have in publication? Anyone?



My first will be released at the end of the month, but why is that relevant here? If you're going to make the point that none of us have a novel published, and therefore aren't qualified to speak about what makes a good novel, then let's go back to the name game. Name me one successful novelist since the turn of the millennium who hasn't used conflict in their novel. You can't. Contrary to what OX believes, novels are not without conflict. Someone gets angry at a backlog of traffic. Conflict. Someone stubs their toe on a desk and nearly breaks their computer in anger. Conflict. Someone questions why their life has gone down the drain. Internal conflict.


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## JosephB (Sep 15, 2011)

Yes -- of course. A human being can't get through the day without some  sort of conflict. It's everywhere. Any time someone comes up to you and  says -- "guess what happened to me today," -- it's going to be about  conflict. You'd have to go out of your way to try and not include it in  any kind of story -- and I can't imagine that anyone would try. We're  relying on OX to tell us that there's this novel without conflict -- but  I'm still not buying it. Most humor is rooted in conflict. It's there  -- he's just not recognizing it. 

I'm also betting the novel just didn't catch on for one reason or another -- like a gazillion other novels and that it had nothing to do with the lack of conflict. So using it as some example -- just because it's out of print -- that a novel without conflict will fail is pretty silly. I seriously doubt that a novel with zero conflict would ever make it print in the first place. It's a no-brainer.


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## Rustgold (Sep 15, 2011)

JosephB said:


> I'm also betting the novel just didn't catch on for one reason or another -- like a gazillion other novels and that it had nothing to do with the lack of conflict. So using it as some example -- just because it's out of print -- that a novel without conflict will fail is pretty silly.


Yes, but if there isn't any example of a successful novel in the last 15 years that hasn't had conflict, then that would be telling.
We're yet to have an example of a successful novel in the last 15 years that hasn't needed external conflict, yet alone no conflict at all.  Unless such a successful novel exists, we have only make one logical conclusion.


From Top Sellers Lists

Some best sellers you may not have heard about

*
Last 14 Years*


*Angels & Demons* is a 2000 bestselling mystery-thriller novel written by American author Dan Brown The plot follows Harvard symbologist Robert Langdon, as he tries to stop the Illuminati,
= External conflict.

*The Purpose Driven Life* (2002) is a devotional book written by Christian author Rick Warren and published by Zondervan. The book has been on the New York Times Best Seller list for advice books for one of the longest periods in history
= Don't know why it's listed is fiction, besides being religious garbage.

*The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo* (original title in Swedish: Män som hatar kvinnor – "Men Who Hate Women") is an award-winning crime novel and locked room mystery by Swedish author and journalist Stieg Larsson.
= Totally horrible book (read 5 pages), but External Conflict.

*Wolf Totem* is a semi-autobiographical novel about the experiences of a young student from Beijing   a young man in his 20s left his native Beijing to work in Inner Mongolia during the cultural revolution.  Through descriptions of folk traditions,- compares the culture of the ethnic Mongolian nomads and the Han Chinese farmers in the area, praising the "freedom, independence, respect, unyielding before hardship, teamwork and competition" of the former and criticising the "Confucian-inspired culture, autocratic, sheeplike" nature of the latter.[1] The book condemns the agricultural collectivisation imposed on the nomads by the settlers, and the ecological disasters it caused, and ends with a 60-page "call to action"
= Political Conflict (External?)

*The Secret* is a best-selling 2006 self-help book
= Yeah religious rubbish, but External Conflict (material gains) self help.

*The Shadow of the Wind* (Spanish: La sombra del viento) is a 2001 novel Just after the war, Daniel's father takes him to the secret Cemetery of Forgotten Books everyone initiated to this secret place is allowed to take one book from it, and must protect it for life Laín Coubert, after a character in the book who happens to be the Devil – who has been seeking out Carax's books for decades, buying them all and burning them.
= Weird but External Conflict

*The Lovely Bones* is a 2002 novel by Alice Sebold. It is the story of a teenage girl who, after being raped and murdered, watches from her personal Heaven as her family and friends struggle to move on with their lives  nce she has entered it, he rapes and murders her with a knife and dismembers her body, putting her remains in a safe and dumps it in a sinkhole.  he Salmon family refuses to accept that Susie is dead, until Susie's elbow is found by the neighbor's dog.  That night in his study, Jack looks out the window and sees a flashlight in the cornfield. Believing it is Harvey returning to destroy evidence, he runs out to confront him, armed with a baseball bat.  Trying to help her father prove his suspicions, Lindsey sneaks into Harvey's house and finds a diagram of the underground den,  Prior to its June publication, an excerpt was run in Seventeen. Shortly afterwards, ABC's Good Morning America chose it for its book club.
= External Conflict plus TV help

*The Shack* is a Christian novel At the beginning of the book, Mack receives a note in his mailbox from "Papa  He suspects that the note may be from God, whom his wife Nan refers to as "Papa." Mack's family leaves to visit relatives and he goes alone to the shack as he is leaving, the shack and its surroundings are supernaturally transformed into a lush and inviting scene. He enters the shack and encounters manifestations of the three persons of the Trinity. God the Father takes the form of an African American woman who calls herself Elouisa and Papa,  The bulk of the book narrates Mack's conversations with Papa, Jesus, and Sarayu as he comes to terms with Missy's death and his relationships with the three of them.  After spending the weekend at the shack, Mack leaves and is so preoccupied with his thoughts that he is nearly killed in an automobile accident.  He also leads the police to the cave which Papa revealed, and they find Missy's body still lying there. With the help of forensic evidence discovered at the scene, the Little Ladykiller is arrested and put on trial.  The Shack went largely unnoticed for over a year after its initial publication, but suddenly became a very popular seller in the summer of 2008, when it debuted at number 1 on the New York Times paperback fiction best sellers list on June 8.[3] Its success was the result of word of mouth promotion in churches and Christian-themed radio, websites, and blogs.[2]
= Religious groups paid of it to be a best seller (fictional sales - paid for),  Non-Book External Conflict (unsure about book).

*The Gruffalo* is a children's book by writer and playwright Julia Donaldson, illustrated by Axel Scheffler, that tells the story of a mouse's walk in the woods.  The protagonist of The Gruffalo is a mouse. The story of the mouse's walk through the woods unfolds in two phases; in both, the mouse uses cunning to evade danger.  On his way the mouse encounters several dangerous animals
= External Conflict

*The Kite Runner* is a novel by Khaled Hosseini. Assef, a notorious sociopath and violent older boy, mocks Amir for socializing with a Hazara, which is, according to Assef, an inferior race that should only live in Hazarajat. He prepares to attack Amir with brass knuckles, but Hassan bravely stands up to him,
= External Conflict


*Current Top 10 - All Novels*


*The Help * The Deep South of the 1960s is the volatile setting for Kathryn Stockett's debut novel about the fictional lives of black maids in Jackson, Miss., and the white women who employ them.  Aibileen, is a middle-aged black maid working for Elizabeth Leefolt. Because she is not willing to challenge the status quo, Aibileen says nothing when Elizabeth, under the spell of a hateful friend's "Home Health Sanitation Initiative,"  Tension mounts as the women, fearing for their lives, take personal risks so their stories can be included in Skeeter's book, called Help.
= Sounds PC politically/racially hateful, but External Conflict

*1105 Yakima Street* Olivia is still recovering from cancer and now has to deal with her mother's failing health. Charlotte (the aforementioned mother) and Ben deal with the after effects of a house fire. Grace and Cliff adopt a new puppy, much to Grace's chagrin. Will and Miranda try to work with each other without killing each other. Shirley's new romance takes the next step. Linc and Lori have to deal with Lori's overbearing father. Chad and Gloria deal with an unplanned pregnancy.
= Internal & External Conflict

*The Hunger Games* Girl takes sister’s place in a real-world survivor game in a post-apocalyptic USA .
= Fighting, External Conflict

*Heaven* Is for Real A Little Boy’s Astounding Story of His Trip to Heaven and Back”
= Religious Paid Nut Job

*Kill Me If You Can* James Patterson A poor art student lands in hot water after stumbling upon a duffel bag filled with diamonds
= External Conflict

*The Mill River Recluse * A town’s fascination with a reclusive widow and her secrets could spell trouble .  Disfigured by the blow of an abusive husband, and suffering her entire life with severe social anxiety disorder, the widow Mary McAllister spends almost sixty years secluded in a white marble mansion overlooking the town of Mill River, Vermont.  The Mill River Recluse is a story of triumph over tragedy, one that reminds us of the value of friendship and the ability of love to come from the most unexpected of places.   Newcomers to Mill River--a police officer and his daughter and a new fourth grade teacher--are also curious about the reclusive old woman. But only Father Michael O’Brien knows Mary and the secret she keeps--one that, once revealed, will change all of their lives forever.
= Both Internal Conflict & External Progress (Conflict?)

*Catching Fire*   Katniss and Peeta are targeted as rebels after winning the Hunger Games; second in series
= External Conflict

*In My Time* Dick Cheney “A Personal and Political Memoir
= Non fiction, well allegedly Loads Of External Conflict I bet.

*Mockingjay*  Katniss must give herself completely to the rebellion in order for it to succeed; last in series . Set in a future dictatorship in which teenagers are forced to fight to the death on television, the series is a kind of realistic fantasy, a blend of sci-fi, mythology, horror and romance.
= External Conflict

*Port Mortuary*   She's another thriller-crime-mystery writer on my junk reads list, In this book, Scarpissah gets angry if someone is at her desk, leaves scalpels in disarray, starts working a crime scene before her. Her husband is pissy about his past, her past, criminal's pasts. Her niece, was born pissed off. You want to say, "I'll give you something to be angry about." What do you want? A health issue? Unemployment? Foreclosure? If YOU want to get angry--google Cornwell latest living quarters in Boston. You'll never buy another book. Trust me. 
= Sounds like someone didn't like it but External Conflict


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## Rustgold (Sep 15, 2011)

Taken from the best sellers list from the last 14 years (didn't bother with HP and Paterson) plus the top 10 of all novels this week (US), the only ones not external conflict were 1 non-fiction (probably still external conflict), several religiously paid best sellers and two without have enough info to classify.
So this suggests that unless you're writing a religious fictional book & can get a nutty religious movement to 'purchase' the book into the best sellers list, external conflict is essential for a successful novel.


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## JosephB (Sep 15, 2011)

Rustgold said:


> Yes, but if there isn't any example of a successful novel in the last 15 years that hasn't had conflict, then that would be telling.
> We're yet to have an example of a successful novel in the last 15 years that hasn't needed external conflict, yet alone no conflict at all.  Unless such a successful novel exists, we have only make one logical conclusion.



It's not telling, so much as it's a no-brainer -- like I said. I also said -- "I seriously doubt that a novel with zero conflict would ever make it print in the first place." Never mind the past 15 years.


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## Lord Darkstorm (Sep 15, 2011)

> Who’s talking about a correlation between 1984 and conflict? _Not this little black duck._  All I said was that other posters seem to think I should think the way  they think, which is what 1984 was partly about – mind control.



Well, actually, 1984 was about control of information and history.  Which was the main character's job, changing history.  So much so that the year was always 1984, so time had been stopped and history kept changing to fit the latest trend in what those in control wanted people to believe.  While they did do things to convince people to conform, they didn't as much brain wash people as they kept them ignorant.


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## Syren (Sep 15, 2011)

> Do me a favour. Turn on the television and tune it to your local news  station. Then, take out a pen and paper and write down the amount of  stories which depict good news as opposed to bad. In fact, forget the  pen and paper. You won't need it. Your local news is _rife _with  conflict. Do you want to know why? Because conflict sells. How many  millions of people stayed up through the night when 9/11 happened? How  many millions watched 6/6 around the clock?



Read my first post. I said that a good story needs conflict. I understand that conflict makes the world go round. I stated that we relate through conflict and struggle. No one is arguing that great stories have no conflict. 



> That's conflict. Notice how they never have two experts who agree with  each other? They're always bickering and fighting amongst themselves.  Conflict. However, if you want to be completely pedantic and technical,  yes you can write a story without conflict. No one said you couldn't.  What I said was that conflict is _essential _to good fiction. It is  what makes a novel intriguing, exciting, suspenseful. Imagine reading a  horror novel where there's no threat to anyone and everyone always  escapes the clutches of the monster. What would be the point? We can  argue semantics until we're blue in the face, and I'll agree that  writing a story does not require conflict, but you can be assured that  the reason _A Year in Suburbia _has been discontinued is because very few people bought it.



Is it pedantic to argue the point of the thread? If I'm being obtuse because I'm trying to keep the thread from being derailed, then apologies. As I've said, many times already, a great story is built from conflict - but conflict isn't required to tell a story.

Why are you all so obsessed with finding a novel that sold millions without conflict? This has nothing to do with the topic. That was one post from one participant - if I start ranting about the mediocrity of "greatness" in a creative environment, then point to art and say that what was once regarded as worthless becomes priceless over time... or writing and exclaim that Aldous Huxley wrote a pile of poo in his time that became a sensational classic years later, would that alleviate the kung fu grip you all hold on what is "good" work?

How do you define a "novel"? What are you going to use as a measure? Could we say that Art of War was a novel? Or does it have to be a fictional work? Is the bible a novel? How about Where the Sidewalk Ends, by Silverstein? Novel? Is there a page requirement? Does it have to be published and sell at least a million copies? Where does it end?

The point of the thread, I believe, was that it is possible to write a story without conflict. Everything else is marshmallow fluff.


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## Syren (Sep 15, 2011)

You want a novel that has no conflict?


The Twilight Saga.

Boom.


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## JosephB (Sep 15, 2011)

Syren said:


> The point of the thread, I believe, was that it is possible to write a story without conflict. Everything else is marshmallow fluff.



And it's a non-point. Of course, you can right a story without conflict. But it's a good bet that it's not going to be something people will want to read. We're not even talking about "great" just something that people won't put down after reading a few pages -- or even the first page -- given that conflict is usually presented right off the bat. That's usually what makes for a strong opening.

This is all so simple and basic -- I can't believe it's been going on for three pages.


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## Syren (Sep 15, 2011)

So you agree that you can write a story without conflict. 

Why is it a non-point? Because the only works worth their paper sell millions of copies? Thank the gods that our artistic ancestors cared more about the work than money. Where would art be if Vincent had burned all his painting because they didn't sell right away? Or if Shakespeare wrote only about chaste and courtly love in the overly purple prose styling of his time? Where would writing be if we were all restricted to writing about current events and pop culture? Quick, let's all toss our writing and start pushing out vampire melodrama spiced with teens and werewolves! Or little boy wizards fighting against the undefined powers of darkness!

Greatness tells, in the end. Our measures are made in the reckoning of it. You can not define the greatness of a journey when you've just decided to embark upon it. 

All of it nonsense anyways. A story can be written without conflict. I challenge you to write one and make it great, in your own eyes. Like minds will follow, learned minds will appreciate and just maybe you will stand amongst those noted persons who took a fact and ran crosswise of all the popular beliefs. The truly great, that we all thank for our progress.


laughin... wow I got retarded a bit in that one... lol.


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## Sam (Sep 15, 2011)

Syren said:


> You want a novel that has no conflict?
> 
> 
> The Twilight Saga.
> ...




Are you for real? Have you read _Twilight_? Despite the horrid writing, it is _absolutely rife _with conflict. Jacob and Edward fighting over Bella; Bella threatening to kill herself if Edward leaves; Edward stalking Bella and puncturing her tyres so she can't leave him. What is that if not conflict? 

The posts in this thread are getting more and more asinine. By all means, write a story without conflict. As I've said so many times, the person who says something can't be done is usually interrupted by the person who's done it. Of course you can write every story you want and have no conflict. Have everyone get everything they want, all the money they can spend, and the best life anyone could hope for. You know what you could name that novel? Boring. 

If you can tell stories without conflict, how come you can't name a single novel off the top of your head which doesn't have any? Because, as I've said so many times that it's getting redundant at this point, good fiction is laden with conflict. There are no ifs, buts, or maybes about that. It's a simple fact.


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## Syren (Sep 15, 2011)

Laughing.

First, the Twilight thing was a joke. The books are pure crap, which is why I said there's no conflict. Tongue-in-cheek as it were... boom.


So you want stories without conflict off the top of my head? To prove that conflict isn't required in a story, something you already agreed to? Oh, you want to make it about "good stories" and totally ignore my point about what's good to some isn't to others, appreciation of art is subjective and volatile at best... yadda yadda... how about "The Common Sense Book of Baby and Child Care" by Benjamin Spock? 50 million copies sold... instructional stories that explain what to do if, how to handle when, etc. I suppose you could debate that it has conflict, because although an instructional guide it alludes to problems and how to solve them. Or maybe that's not a novel, as you define it? Must it be fiction? Is there a standard we're using here?

Asinine is going off course of the thread and arguing a point that has no merit. Asking others to convince you of something that you obviously will not define. Calling others asinine when they're just trying to engage in a friendly conversation. Oh, wait... I think that one just backfired on me... ummm...

Any rate. Jonathan Livingston Seagull. Very little external conflict... seagulls think he's a galah, he doesn't care. He tries to perfect what he enjoys, flying. He ascends, returns, teaches, moves on... all very touching. Possible internal conflict, he is attempting to better himself. Teaching others, the cast outs that don't belong. I suppose there is conflict in that one... just not a lot. How much conflict are we talking here?

Love You Forever by Munsch? No conflict there that I could identify... sold over 20 million copies. I guess we'd argue its validity as a novel though.

The bible?


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## JosephB (Sep 15, 2011)

Syren said:


> So you agree that you can write a story without conflict.



Yes. What's your point? That it's possible to write a story no one would want to read? Fantastic.

Instructional books aren't stories. Jonathan Livingston Seagull no doubt has conflict. Haven't read "Love You Forever" -- but even you're doubting that it qualifies as a novel. You're not getting anywhere with this.

As for me, I couldn't  write a story without conflict if I tried.



Sam W said:


> Because, as I've said so many times that it's getting redundant at this  point, good fiction is laden with conflict. There are no ifs, buts, or  maybes about that. It's a simple fact.



Yes -- and anyone who hasn't backed himself into a corner arguing otherwise would acknowledge that.


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## Lord Darkstorm (Sep 15, 2011)

I find these types of discussions rather interesting.  I'm in the (slow) process of reading through Scene & Structure by Jack M. Bickham (also used the name John Miles alias for some of his books).  He is a published author, and from the book I'm reading he teaches writing at a college (or did when he was writing the book).  I wanted to quot a very small bit of something I just read which I think links right in here:



> At this point, however, I must admit to some personal qualms about having given nearly equal time to ways to speed up or slow down a narrative.  That's because in my experience of teaching fiction technique in the university classroom for more than two decades, novice novels that fail because they move too slowly outnumber those that move too fast by a margin of about 10 to 1.
> 
> There seem to be at least five obvious reasons why this should be so:
> 
> ...



So, taken as someone who does have around 50 or so novels published, maybe he might have a point that successful novels have conflict.  Maybe not all novels, but ones that will be read and enjoyed by a reader.  Please forgive any typo's I might have made while typing this in, I did read back over it, but typos are one of my curses.


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## WriterJohnB (Sep 15, 2011)

Oops, replied to this thread before I realized it was several pages long.

But I'm all for conflict and a book sure as hell better have resolution, too.

JohnB


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## Syren (Sep 15, 2011)

You did well Darkstorm, your thoughts are appreciated  
For the record, I agree with all that you've said.



Others: I'm done. Obviously I've failed in my argument. Hope no hard feelings, cheers all


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## starseed (Sep 15, 2011)

> At this point, however, I must admit to some personal qualms about  having given nearly equal time to ways to speed up or slow down a  narrative.  That's because in my experience of teaching fiction  technique in the university classroom for more than two decades, novice  novels that fail because they move too slowly outnumber those that move  too fast by a margin of about 10 to 1.
> 
> There seem to be at least five obvious reasons why this should be so:
> 
> ...




^^That is one of the most helpful things I've read in awhile. I really needed that right now, as my novel is a big huge mess. It spoke to me, thank you so much!


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## Lord Darkstorm (Sep 15, 2011)

Points 1 and 3 are the ones I have to work on the most.  Maybe I can put some of it to practice in Nov.


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## Sam (Sep 15, 2011)

All I can say is this: Good luck to anyone who wants to write a novel without conflict. It's bonkers, but what do I know? I've written twelve novels, self-published three of them, and have one about to be traditionally published in the next few weeks. I'm doing everything wrong, apparently.


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## MJ Preston (Sep 15, 2011)

Conflict is a lot more fun though.


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## Foxee (Sep 15, 2011)

MJ Preston said:


> Conflict is a lot more fun though.


I agree. I was tempted to smack Mr. Preston for emphasis but the return conflict is a scary thought.

Plus, I'd probably have to ban myself.

I think I'll just get a hot drink and a cookie and write about conflict.


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## MJ Preston (Sep 15, 2011)

Foxee said:


> I think I'll just get a hot drink and a *cookie* and write about conflict.



You better bring me one back or there will be conflict.


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## Foxee (Sep 15, 2011)

Drat, I just can't stand conflict. You can have my Oreos.


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## MJ Preston (Sep 15, 2011)

Foxee said:


> Drat, I just can't stand conflict. You can have my Oreos.



A wise move Foxee there would have been much blood.

By chance would this be you?


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## The Backward OX (Sep 15, 2011)

Sam W said:


> If you can tell stories without conflict, how come you can't name a single novel off the top of your head which doesn't have any? Because, as I've said so many times that it's getting redundant at this point, good fiction is laden with conflict. There are no ifs, buts, or maybes about that. It's a simple fact.


Sam, I just did. See my original post.

I imagine, when you say that a good novel needs conflict, what you really mean is that a novel that you personally would enjoy needs conflict. 

On the other hand, I can enjoy a novel without conflict. I quite enjoyed A Year in Suburbia. It may have been a flop in the mind of someone like Rustgold, *but it wasn’t a flop for me*.

Sam, you can rant all you like about what makes a good novel but at the end of the day it’s still subjective.


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## Baron (Sep 15, 2011)

It seems that, true to form, Edna has an opinion which is in conflict with everyone else's...


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## Foxee (Sep 15, 2011)

MJ Preston said:


> A wise move Foxee there would have been much blood.
> 
> By chance would this be you?



*shifty eyes* Can I help it that I really like Oreos?


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## Rustgold (Sep 16, 2011)

The Backward OX said:


> It may have been a flop in the mind of someone like Rustgold, *but it wasn’t a flop for me*.
> Sam, you can rant all you like about what makes a good novel but at the end of the day it’s still subjective.


It wasn't a flop in my mind, it was a flop in the bookshops; there's nothing subjective about it.

The events of what happened are easy to work out.  The two main publishers who normally handled his books wouldn't touch it; the agent managed to get another publisher to print it based on the author's name; that publisher found out that the book was a flop and couldn't wash their hands of it quickly enough; and the agent hasn't been able to get any other publisher to touch it with a ten foot pole.

From every direction it's been a complete flop of a book.  Not my opinion, rather the opinion of those who didn't buy the book, the publishers who won't touch it, plus the publisher who regrets ever going near the book and wiped their hands of it.


The fact that a book from a known author can flop so badly is evidence that conflict (and I'd suggest external conflict) is required for any novel to have a chance of success _(maybe unless you have a religious movement to buy it's success with fictional sales)_.  And there's no successful novel of the last 15 years to contradict that statement.


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## The Backward OX (Sep 16, 2011)

Baron said:


> It seems that, true to form, Edna has an opinion which is in conflict with everyone else's...



Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth. _(John F. Kennedy)_


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