# Narration Tense



## -AT (Mar 23, 2014)

For my current project I've been using present tense in first person in such a way that it feels like the main character is telling us what is happening as it happens. For example:



> The car pulls into a small dirt driveway and comes to a stop. The driver gets out and opens my door before retrieving my bags. I step out and I gaze upon my new home.



As opposed to typical past tense story reading:



> The car pulled into a small dirt driveway and came to a stop. The driver got out and opened my door before retrieving my bags. I stepped out and I gazed upon my new home.



The actual changes are quite subtle, but in my mind, they read pretty different. I don't think I've ever read anything written in the same way as the first example. Is that acceptable? Or is it pretty standard to write as if I'm recollecting past events. You know - like I'm telling a story. I'm not really sure it makes a big difference (or any difference), so I'm torn as to whether stick to my current methods, or just go with a more typical past tense style.


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## Bishop (Mar 23, 2014)

-AT said:


> I don't think I've ever read anything written in the same way as the first example. Is that acceptable?



It's becoming rather common. Why? Because the 50 Shades books are written this way.

I've always said I dislike 1st person, and I dislike 1st person active voice even more. I like it to seem like someone's telling the story as if they were sitting across from me at a campfire, to give it an image.


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## -AT (Mar 23, 2014)

Bishop said:


> It's becoming rather common. Why? Because the 50 Shades books are written this way.
> 
> I've always said I dislike 1st person, and I dislike 1st person active voice even more. I like it to seem like someone's telling the story as if they were sitting across from me at a campfire, to give it an image.



What's to dislike about first person? If that someone at the campfire is telling a story about himself, he's not going to refer to himself in third person. 

That second half is exactly what I'm looking for, though. Personally, I don't know if I want to feel like I'm being told a story, or if I'm right there witnessing the story.


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## Bishop (Mar 24, 2014)

-AT said:


> What's to dislike about first person? If that someone at the campfire is telling a story about himself, he's not going to refer to himself in third person.
> 
> That second half is exactly what I'm looking for, though. Personally, I don't know if I want to feel like I'm being told a story, or if I'm right there witnessing the story.



My dislike of a first person narrative is a long, essay-worthy rant, but the biggest issue I have is that it's so centrally focused that I feel disjointed from the other characters. Emotions are all of the main character's (aside from what we can see on the other characters' faces) and that especially begins to feel rather whiny to me after a short while. I'm not a fan of the narrow base of view, and in my narratives, I jump around from person to person in what I like to call an ensemble cast of characters. It does not work for me as a writer, and I feel like when I read it I'm reading the diary of a teenager. Which sometimes, I am. (see: almost all YA lit)

But I am but one man. I know a lot of writers on this forum love first person, use first person, and I've personally seen some of them use it very well in their stories in the prose sections. But when it comes down to it, I agree with Stephen King, where in On Writing he says that unless you have a very specific reason to write in first person, don't. As I said, though, that's just me. It's a preference of mine, and I know for a fact a lot of people disagree with me.

I especially dislike present tense, simply because I feel it sounds unprofessional. There's something about the difference between "I move my hand" and "I moved my hand" that irks me. (I'm being a negative nancy, I know) Overall, it partly goes back to the 50 Shades books. She does this, along with overall bad prose, horrible and unrealistic characters, annoying personifications of "subconscious" (which specifically is not SUBconscious if you hear it well enough to personify it) and many many more examples of the litany of horrid writing techniques that those books are. It's a personal bias, it's an opinion and nothing more.


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## T.S.Bowman (Mar 24, 2014)

I have yet to try writing anything in other the "He walked into the room with a chip on his shoulder" kind of narrative voice. I don't even know if I COULD write something in First person. I probably could, but it wouldn't feel natural to me. Mostly because I wouldn't be doing the things the character is. *shrug*

PS - Am I a bad writer because I couldn't put a name on the narrative voice I was referring to in the example I gave?


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## -AT (Mar 24, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> I have yet to try writing anything in other the "He walked into the room with a chip on his shoulder" kind of narrative voice. I don't even know if I COULD write something in First person. I probably could, but it wouldn't feel natural to me. Mostly because I wouldn't be doing the things the character is. *shrug*
> 
> PS - Am I a bad writer because I couldn't put a name on the narrative voice I was referring to in the example I gave?



You mean third person?


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## T.S.Bowman (Mar 24, 2014)

-AT said:


> You mean third person?



Okay. LOL

Maybe it's a result of having worked 10+ hours today. Or maybe it simply doesn't matter much to me what it's called. All I really know is what I like to read, and what suits the way I like to write.


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## Bishop (Mar 24, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> PS - Am I a bad writer because I couldn't put a name on the narrative voice I was referring to in the example I gave?



Third person omniscient in the past tense, to be a bit more exacting.


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## T.S.Bowman (Mar 24, 2014)

Bishop said:


> Third person omniscient in the past tense, to be a bit more exacting.



LOL.

Now...my next question is...do I _*really*_ need that information to write my story?? lol


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## Bishop (Mar 24, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> LOL.
> 
> Now...my next question is...do I _*really*_ need that information to write my story?? lol



Not in the least, but if there's one thing my English degree can do, it's this. Sadly, still have yet to find the job title of "British Literaturer" so, you know, I'm stuck with pointing out third person omniscient narratives until then!


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## popsprocket (Mar 24, 2014)

To be honest I really hate first person present tense. More than my considerable hatred for first person tense as a whole. You can search the forums and find I've said as much in a dozen places.

Why do I dislike it? I'm in the same camp as Bishop in that I could write you an essay. Suffice to say that it reads poorly and makes me want to poke my eyes out. 

Ever heard the advice that when you're writing an action scene you shouldn't give a blow-by-blow because that's not a good way to convey what is happening? Yeah, first present is like that. A blow-by-blow of the narrator's life in agonising slow motion. That's how it plays out in my head. There's also issues with the fact that first present is used so often by poorly written YA (see: Hunger Games) that I immediately associate that particular view point with complete drivel.

But that's not to say it's not a valid way to write a book.

It's just not _my _valid way.

And I also wouldn't dismiss past tense as 'typical'. There's a reason people use it.



Bishop said:


> Third person omniscient in the past tense, to be a bit more exacting.



It's not necessarily omniscient. Omniscient means that narrator has the introspective on all the characters and not just one. Like:_

"I'm cold." Sam said, rubbing his arms. He wished he had brought his jacket.
"Me too." Kelly shivered. She wished Sam had brought his jacket so that she could borrow it.
_


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## Deleted member 49710 (Mar 24, 2014)

It is silly to exclude any POV or tense from your range of possible voices when someday it might turn out to be the right one. 

It is equally silly to make E. L. James the representative of 1st person present tense; like pretty much everything else, she writes it badly, and certainly didn't invent anything. Read some Palahniuk; he does it well.


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## popsprocket (Mar 24, 2014)

lasm said:


> Read some Palahniuk; he does it well.



I have, and at the risk of sounding like a child throwing a tantrum, I didn't like it then either. And that was before first present became the vomitous standard for bad writers.

And for the record I have actually attempted first person writing a number of times. It's not that hard to do, just feels wrong.


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## -AT (Mar 24, 2014)

I think I'll agree with you guys on using active tense. After reading my first chapter a few times, I found myself subconsciously reading it in past tense, even though that's not how it's written. So, I'm re-writing it. 

As far as not liking first person, I think that's silly. If a story is about a certain character than there is no reason it shouldn't be from his/her point of view. That doesn't necessarily have to slow the pace of the story, either. My story revolves around a single person and his experiences. The experiences become much more personal when he's telling us about them himself.

Though, that's still just an opinion.


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## Tettsuo (Mar 24, 2014)

popsprocket said:


> I have, and at the risk of sounding like a child throwing a tantrum, I didn't like it then either.* And that was before first present became the vomitous standard for bad writers.*
> 
> And for the record I have actually attempted first person writing a number of times. It's not that hard to do, just feels wrong.



Wow, seriously?

The vast majority of books written are done in the third person.  Many of those books are bad.  How can you imagine that first present is the standard bearer for bad writing?


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## Tettsuo (Mar 24, 2014)

Bishop said:


> It's becoming rather common. Why? Because the 50 Shades books are written this way.
> 
> I've always said I dislike 1st person, and I dislike 1st person active voice even more. I like it to seem like someone's telling the story as if they were sitting across from me at a campfire, to give it an image.



Nonsense.  First person present was well known far before 50 Shades hit the scene.  To make 50 shades the reason why others write in first person present is a HUGE assumption on your part.

I write in first person present because it works for my stories.  Having never read 50 shades, I can tell you honestly, it never had even the slightest impact on how I write or my decision to write in that tense and perspective.


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## T.S.Bowman (Mar 24, 2014)

Bishop said:


> Not in the least, but if there's one thing my English degree can do, it's this. Sadly, still have yet to find the job title of "British Literaturer" so, you know, I'm stuck with pointing out third person omniscient narratives until then!



Fair enough. I'll keep that in mind. LOL


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## Deleted member 49710 (Mar 24, 2014)

-AT said:


> I think I'll agree with you guys on using active tense. After reading my first chapter a few times, I found myself subconsciously reading it in past tense, even though that's not how it's written. So, I'm re-writing it.
> 
> As far as not liking first person, I think that's silly. If a story is about a certain character than there is no reason it shouldn't be from his/her point of view. That doesn't necessarily have to slow the pace of the story, either. My story revolves around a single person and his experiences. The experiences become much more personal when he's telling us about them himself.
> 
> Though, that's still just an opinion.


Just to be clear on terms, there's no such thing as "active" tense. There's passive and active voice (active=agent is also grammatical subject, passive=object is grammatical subject) but these can occur in any tense.

I've been rereading Katherine Dunn's Geek Love. Great book. Very appropriate 1st person present for current events, past for earlier life. Can't imagine limiting my reading or my writing based on POV.


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## Bishop (Mar 24, 2014)

Tettsuo said:


> Nonsense.  First person present was well known far before 50 Shades hit the scene.  To make 50 shades the reason why others write in first person present is a HUGE assumption on your part.



50 Shades of Dumb didn't make 1st person a big deal, but 1st person present tense. That's my issue, the two put together.

1st person's been around for ages, but it's really only recently with YA and really bad pop novels like 50 that have started really incorporating active tense. That being said, I'm aware that no book has an effect so profound that any one writing technique can be "blamed" on it, but my hatred for particular books (Scarlet Letter, 50 Shades) leads me to make broad, hyperbolic statements about them. I do this because I am a crusader against the darkness that comes... tell no one. >.>


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## A_Jones (Mar 24, 2014)

wow so much hate.   This is how I myself write.  I would appreciate it if you were to read my work, it is called FAE I have chapters 1-5 posted.  I personally think I do a good job at this narrative tense.   You should not worry about it.  Yes, there will be people who will not read your work because of your voice, but really, it doesn't matter.  This is your work AT  YOURS, dont let anyone tell you you are doing it improperly.   You should always write how you feel is best!


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## A_Jones (Mar 24, 2014)

Bishop said:


> , but it's really only recently with YA and really bad pop novels like 50 that have started really incorporating active tense.



This is not true.  I have an extensive ya library, first person present has been quite big for twenty years now. However YA is only just now becoming more read.


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## Kyle R (Mar 24, 2014)

Whoops, didn't mean to post this.


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## Tettsuo (Mar 24, 2014)

KyleColorado said:


> I love first person tense, just as I love third person past. They each have a different feel to them, and, yes, they each require different techniques.
> 
> A short I wrote recently was done in first person present. Here's the opening two lines:
> 
> ...



STOP!  Don't you know that sounds terribly unprofessional?!

/sarcasm


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## A_Jones (Mar 24, 2014)

Tettsuo said:


> STOP!  Don't you know that sounds terribly unprofessional?!
> 
> /sarcasm



Yeah! what Tettsuo said!


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## -AT (Mar 24, 2014)

I think the issues with the guys that don't like it is that they personally haven't read anything that uses the perspective properly or in a good way (hence the Scarlet Letter and 50 Shades examples). I personally haven't either, but at the same time, I don't really recall reading anything in this voice, so I'm open minded to it.


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## Tettsuo (Mar 24, 2014)

-AT said:


> I think the issues with the guys that don't like it is that they personally haven't read anything that uses the perspective properly or in a good way (hence the Scarlet Letter and 50 Shades examples). I personally haven't either, but at the same time, I don't really recall reading anything in this voice, so I'm open minded to it.



Contrary to popular belief, first person present tense is rare.  The vast majority of books are written in third person past tense.

I grew up mostly reading comics.  Comics are always written in the present tense.  It's only when I got into my twenties did I start to read novels, so for me both past and present tense have been normalized.

If all of the books you loved to read were in past tense third person, it's natural that your writing will be reflective of what you've been exposed to.  What I find tiresome, is the hate for first person present tense and the discounting of it as a valid means of storytelling.


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## Kyle R (Mar 24, 2014)

I'm a fan of first person present. When done well, it reads beautifully.

I agree with Lasm and Tetsuo—pointing at poorly-written examples does nothing, really, but point at poor writing.

I can throw up a bunch of poorly-written third person past examples, too, and say, "See? Third person past is lousy." But that would be a weak argument as well. 

Any style of narration can work well if executed with skill, in my opinion.

I think there's a bit of a lack of experience with present tense (as readers, or as writers) that leads many to misalign it only with popular Young Adult Fiction. Frankly, as both a reader of YA and a writer of it, I find the assumption rather annoying. 

Sorry, but no, YA is not responsible for the present tense movement (either first or third). It's been used in Adult Fiction long before YA even became a genre.

Authors who used the present tense include: Charles Dickens, Virginia Woolf, Gertrude Stein, William Faulkner, Jack Kerouac, and John Updike. You also have more recent names using present tense, either intermittently, or exclusively, such as Cormac McCarthy, Chuck Palahniuk, Jennifer Egan, Anthony Doerr, Junot Diaz, Karen Russell.

It's especially popular with modern Literary Fiction writers, who, in many cases, wield it so powerfully that I've often found myself wondering why writers would even bother adopting the clumsier third person past approach, in comparison with the more lyrical, streamlined prose that first person present offers.

But that's kind of the illusion that a good writer creates: when something is written extremely well, it's hard to imagine it being written any other way.

The same can be said of brilliantly-written third person past. When done well, it seems like it's the only way the story could have been written.

I guess that's the wonderful thing about reading and writing—everyone's entitled to their own viewpoint, and free to adopt their own approach. It also proves, in my opinion, that any approach can work.

My main concern is how first person present seems to get tossed around as if it's a modern-day, amateuristic form of writing. Tell that to experienced, Booker-Prize winning author Margaret Atwood, who started penning _Cat's Eye _(a first person present novel) in the 1960's. It ended up as a finalist for multiple awards.


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## A_Jones (Mar 24, 2014)

KyleColorado said:


> I'm a fan of first person present. When done well, it reads beautifully.
> 
> I agree with Lasm and Tetsuo—pointing at poorly-written examples does nothing, really, but point at poor writing.
> 
> ...



I look forward to the time when first person present isn't scorned because of the terrible books that have ruined it and made it look amateuristic.  I hope to wield it well.


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## Bishop (Mar 24, 2014)

-AT said:


> I think the issues with the guys that don't like it is that they personally haven't read anything that uses the perspective properly or in a good way (hence the Scarlet Letter and 50 Shades examples). I personally haven't either, but at the same time, I don't really recall reading anything in this voice, so I'm open minded to it.



Okay, couple things! I've read many books that use it properly, but I still hate it. Even when used properly, I wonder if the narration could have been better if used in 3rd person past tense. One of my favorite books (Heart of Darkness) is written in 1st person, albeit past tense. It's beautifully done, and offers a very pointed perspective on the events. The tale is made much better by his personal observations, and I love it. 

Also, Scarlet Letter is third person past, and yet remains my most hated book. By far. Seriously, when I get to the afterlife, Nathaniel Hawthorne and I are gonna have words.

I often talk about growing up reading cheap sci-fi, and that's where my bias stems from. The books I read are and were 3rd person past. These are the books I love, because they're the subject matter I love. I refuse to compromise and I am often unkind about it! Closed minded? Maybe. I just know what I like, and that's that. I dislike YA books, and even more so the current influx (I realize this is not where it started and a lot of books in the past have this style, but it's getting used most readily by YA, call it a trend) of the first person present perspective. It sounds unprofessional to me, just because the classics and tawdry sci-fi novels I grew up with are the pinnacle of writing to me. If people write that way, it's cool. That's what you're going for. Odds are, I'd still read it, as I'm of the firm belief that every book, good or bad, hated or loved, has a lesson to teach the reader (including Scarlet Letter and 50 Shlups).

That all being said, I'm gonna go on hatin' what I hate!


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## A_Jones (Mar 24, 2014)

Bishop said:


> Okay, couple things! I've read many books that use it properly, but I still hate it. Even when used properly, I wonder if the narration could have been better if used in 3rd person past tense.



What if the writer has a tough time keeping it as intimate as they would like with a third person?

OR, perhaps the writer is writing a book in the same genre with the same subject matter as another persons well received book.  In that case the best thing the writer can do is write in a style so separate to the other author that the connection would not be placed.  

I completely understand disliking a writing style... its the scorn I have a hard time accepting.


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## -AT (Mar 24, 2014)

Bishop said:


> That all being said, I'm gonna go on hatin' what I hate!



You should hate what you hate and love what you love and no one should tell you any different.

Though, because your reasons are so personal and biased for how you feel, it just becomes less effective as practical advise (at least in the scope of my original question).

I will say, at least, that after the discussion here, I have decided to re-write my story in past tense, while keeping it first person. My character is telling you a story the way he knows it, and that's how I want it.


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## Bishop (Mar 24, 2014)

-AT said:


> Though, because your reasons are so personal and biased for how you feel, it just becomes less effective as practical advise (at least in the scope of my original question).
> 
> I will say, at least, that after the discussion here, I have decided to re-write my story in past tense, while keeping it first person. My character is telling you a story the way he knows it, and that's how I want it.



Tried to make it clear from the start that it was my opinion, if that got lost in my rants, my bad.  I tend to get a little lost when the alien overlords take over. >.>


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## -AT (Mar 24, 2014)

Bishop said:


> Tried to make it clear from the start that it was my opinion, if that got lost in my rants, my bad.



Oh no. I completely understand that it is your opinion and I very much appreciate your input. 

I'm just saying that my reason for this thread was to gather information to utilize in my writing and that (for that purpose) I'm disregarding your opinion (about first person perspective; I think I agree about the active voice) as it's very biased.


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## A_Jones (Mar 24, 2014)

I am sorry to hear you are changing your tense, because I liked it.  But it is your work and your decision.  I will be happy to read your work whether you changed your tense or not.


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## -AT (Mar 24, 2014)

A_Jones said:


> I am sorry to hear you are changing your tense, because I liked it.  But it is your work and your decision.  I will be happy to read your work whether you changed your tense or not.



In the case of your story, it fits quite well, but after reading mine several times, it really didn't add anything, and as I mentioned before, I found that I was subconsciously reading it in past tense anyway. So, to me, even written past tense, it still reads and feels the same. Who knows, I may change my mind again. I'm on no time limit.


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## A_Jones (Mar 24, 2014)

Thank you.  I admit I changed my mind a couple times, but I finally made a decision and I am happy with it.


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## Bishop (Mar 24, 2014)

-AT said:


> I'm disregarding your opinion (about first person perspective; I think I agree about the active voice) as it's very biased.



Yes, and I'll be the first person to admit, it's probably good advice to disregard my opinion a lot of the time  I'm rather open about my biases.


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## popsprocket (Mar 24, 2014)

Well that was certainly a harder reaction than normal.

Look, I'm not saying that first/present or just first person as a whole isn't a valid narration tense that can be written well and read in an enjoyable fashion. I'm saying that _I _don't like it, and I don't see that changing in the near future. And just for the record, I've seen plenty of people sharing that opinion on the internet. Does that mean you should change your writing? Of course not, it just means that it's something to consider. Think about why people dislike it and do your best to avoid the pitfalls.

I have read books that use the tense both well and poorly and it does nothing good for me.

And of course third person tenses can be written poorly. Did I say anywhere that third/past is some kind of god-like tense that can't be ruined? No.


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## A_Jones (Mar 24, 2014)

Everyone. The issue here is not your opinion.  I believe your opinion is very much what -AT wanted when this thread was posted.  Whether or not you personally thing first person present is a good tense format or whether it should be changed. 

It is not your opinion that may have sparked conflict here, it was harsh words. 

This site, from what I have seen, should be about support.  How are we supporting a writer who is wanting to write in a first person present tense if we use harsh words to describe it.  Cynicism and sarcasm should never be allowed on a support site.  You state your opinion "I personally find it difficult to read a first person present tense format.  However if it works best for your story keep it up.  I would suggest you think hard on it though, because there are definite marketing pros and cons with this format."  Would have been a perfect negative statement.  

Remember we are trying to build each other up here.  Lets not let our personal distaste in something bring down someone who has worked hard for an unknown amount of time on that very style which we so dislike.  

Thank you!


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## Jon M (Mar 24, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> "He walked into the room with a chip on his shoulder"





Bishop said:


> Third person omniscient in the past tense, to be a bit more exacting.


Impossible to tell from that quote whether it is omniscient or limited, third, second, or even first person point of view.



T.S.Bowman said:


> Now...my next question is...do I _*really*_ need that information to write my story?


To write good stories? Yes.


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## T.S.Bowman (Mar 25, 2014)

Jon M said:


> Impossible to tell from that quote whether it is omniscient or limited, third, second, or even first person point of view.
> 
> To write good stories? Yes.



Ok. Why?? Why must I have that particular piece of information to write a "good " story? If I am already writing in that tense, why must I know what it is? I'm genuinely curious. 

It seems that, once again, I have found myself on the "doing it wrong" side of the aisle.

Oh, and Bishop has seen more of the work that I have done so he knows my style. That's probably why he gave the "third person omniscient" answer. Well..that and the degree he possesses.


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## Sam (Mar 25, 2014)

A_Jones said:


> Remember we are trying to build each other up here.



In modern times, teachers make a show of giving ribbons to all the children in school so that they don't feel left out. They proceed on the flawed assumption that the world is a just and fair place. This particular belief is called the 'just-world fallacy'. In a perfect world, everyone is treated as an equal. In theory, this is a cogent position that seems beneficial to all. It isn't. Treating people as equal when they haven't demonstrated the skills to merit equal standing is unfair and unjust. It teaches people that they can do something half-heartedly and still get the same reward as someone who poured their soul into the same thing. _That _isn't fair. 

We are not here to build each other up. That serves no purpose beyond bolstering egos and falsely ameliorating insecurities. It makes people believe that they are a great writer when they are not. It would be akin to your best friends asking you if they should try out for X Factor and you, knowing they need a lot of work and not wishing to hurt their feelings, agreeing and spurring them on. People need to learn to take criticism. It is _not _an attack on a person -- it is a criticism of their methods or work. If they truly want to become a good writer, no amount of it will ever dissuade them. It will help them grow and become better. 

_That _is what we're here for.


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## Jeko (Mar 25, 2014)

> If I am already writing in that tense, why must I know what it is? I'm genuinely curious.



One man knows how to put a plug in a socket; another knows how to wire the plug. A writer who understands his tools is better off than someone who simply uses them, unless that ignorance is part of their artistic purpose.


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## A_Jones (Mar 25, 2014)

Sam said:


> In modern times, teachers make a show of giving ribbons to all the children in school so that they don't feel left out. They proceed on the flawed assumption that the world is a just and fair place. This particular belief is called the 'just-world fallacy'. In a perfect world, everyone is treated as an equal. In theory, this is a cogent position that seems beneficial to all. It isn't. Treating people as equal when they haven't demonstrated the skills to merit equal standing is unfair and unjust. It teaches people that they can do something half-heartedly and still get the same reward as someone who poured their soul into the same thing. _That _isn't fair.
> 
> We are not here to build each other up. That serves no purpose beyond bolstering egos and falsely ameliorating insecurities. It makes people believe that they are a great writer when they are not. It would be akin to your best friends asking you if they should try out for X Factor and you, knowing they need a lot of work and not wishing to hurt their feelings, agreeing and spurring them on. People need to learn to take criticism. It is _not _an attack on a person -- it is a criticism of their methods or work. If they truly want to become a good writer, no amount of it will ever dissuade them. It will help them grow and become better.
> 
> _That _is what we're here for.


You misunderstood me.  But that's alright.  I think  I will finally bow out of this thread.  I will say one more time.  Criticism is a must.  Negative definitely so.  But scorn should have no place in a creative environment.


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## T.S.Bowman (Mar 25, 2014)

Cadence said:


> One man knows how to put a plug in a socket; another knows how to wire the plug. A writer who understands his tools is better off than someone who simply uses them, unless that ignorance is part of their artistic purpose.



Hmm. SO, since I'm not the electrician type of person and don't know the wiring, I won't be able to write a good story?

Hell...I may as well give up now since it appears I will be wasting my time.

I'm not a technical guy. I don't know the "nuts and bolts" of things. I was a horrible student in school and I'm not a whole lot better at paying attention to stuff that bores me now.

If, because I am not a "student" of writing, I'm not going to be able to write a "good" story, then what is the point of bothering?


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## -AT (Mar 25, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> Hmm. SO, since I'm not the electrician type of person and don't know the wiring, I won't be able to write a good story?
> 
> Hell...I may as well give up now since it appears I will be wasting my time.
> 
> ...



I don't think you can really compare an electrician to an artist, which is essentially what an writer is. If you create art in the same conventional way using the same conventional methods, to me, that strips away some of the art's value as art? No one complains about a painter's technique if his painting comes out the way he intends.


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## T.S.Bowman (Mar 25, 2014)

I dunno. I have seen many people post about "Write what you know" and "there's no wrong way" to write.

But yet, I see an awful lot of posts that, even when not directed at me, let me know that I actually probably AM doing it wrong.


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## shinyford (Mar 25, 2014)

As a huge generalisation, it seems to me that third person is best used to describe what happens, and first to describe how someone feels about it. Using first simply to describe what happens is a waste of energy for both writer and reader. However, if a first-person driven story purely uses events to give context to the narrator's experience, it's far more fulfilling. As a really blunt example:

"The man kicked the boy hard in the ribs"

vs

"Why? Why are you doing this? Stop... stop kicking me! What have I... ach! ...what have I ever done to you?"

Okay, that's a little disingenuous: the third-person example would undoubtedly have more colour to it in the wild, and the first-person example doesn't convey all the information that the third-person one does. But my point is simply that both work better than:

"He is kicking me hard in the ribs. I am a boy and he is a man."

Cheers

Nic


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## Terry D (Mar 25, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> Hmm. SO, since I'm not the electrician type of person and don't know the wiring, I won't be able to write a good story?
> 
> Hell...I may as well give up now since it appears I will be wasting my time.
> 
> ...



That's a question you are going to have to answer for yourself, but I can tell you that all the writers I know don't consider learning about writing a "bother". Writing is an art *and* a craft. While it is perfectly possible--although, in my opinion, highly unlikely--for a writer to sit down and write a 'good' (whatever that means) story without understanding what makes a story 'good', I don't know of any who have done so. If there's no understanding of technique, of why a story works the way it does, then it's all a stroke of luck. Artists and craftspeople excel at what they do because they know what they are doing. Accomplished painters and musicians and sculptors and electricians and, yes, writers, understand their craft.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Mar 25, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> I dunno. I have seen many people post about "Write what you know" and "there's no wrong way" to write.
> 
> But yet, I see an awful lot of posts that, even when not directed at me, let me know that I actually probably AM doing it wrong.


Writing what you know is fine (though limiting) and there is no wrong way to write. But learning about things like different POVs, tenses, etc.--the advantages and disadvantages of each--can only help you to choose the best one for the effect you're trying to achieve. Think of them less as "nuts and bolts" than as tools that are available to you. You can probably build a house with nothing but a hammer, but there are better ways.


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## T.S.Bowman (Mar 25, 2014)

lasm said:


> Writing what you know is fine (though limiting) and there is no wrong way to write. But learning about things like different POVs, tenses, etc.--the advantages and disadvantages of each--can only help you to choose the best one for the effect you're trying to achieve.



So there's no wrong way to write, but I'm doing it wrong. Or maybe just not quite right. LOL

*shakes head*


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## Deleted member 49710 (Mar 25, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> So there's no wrong way to write, but I'm doing it wrong. Or maybe just not quite right. LOL
> 
> *shakes head*


Well, however you go about it, if in the end you have a product that you like, then it's silly to say you did it wrong. But for the work to be as good as it can possibly be, and for you to be sure that it is, it helps a great deal to learn about craft.

To be honest, I don't understand the resistance to it. Why wouldn't you _want_​ to know this stuff? It's useful.


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## shinyford (Mar 25, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> LOL.
> 
> Now...my next question is...do I _*really*_ need that information to write my story?? lol


Absolutely, but only intuitively. You need to know intuitively how to speak/write every single one of those tenses and - what were the other phrases? - agents etc, to use language and write well (which you patently do). 

But there's absolutely no need to know the exact names of tenses - which, let's not forget, are descriptions of how language is done rather than prescriptions of how to do it - to write well, any more than to speak well. Hell, you need to be able to understand language to a very sophisticated degree in order to even parse some of those terms, let alone know what they mean, so having an understanding of them as a prerequisite to being able to use the very language you need to understand them is surely ludicrous.

But having that knowledge makes it easier to discuss the technical aspects of what you're doing with other writers, which in turn helps you and them (and therefore me) improve. So it is very worthwhile. In a nutshell, language is useful for communicating.

Cake, anyone?


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## Kyle R (Mar 25, 2014)

Most writers understand these things things eventually. You'll learn it either through your own study, through intuition from your own work as shinyford pointed out, or you'll pick it up from reading the discussions and explanations of others.

The knowledge will come in one form or another. "Resistance is futile." 

In the meantime, keep writing. :encouragement:


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## T.S.Bowman (Mar 25, 2014)

lasm said:


> Well, however you go about it, if in the end you have a product that you like, then it's silly to say you did it wrong. But for the work to be as good as it can possibly be, and for you to be sure that it is, it helps a great deal to learn about craft.
> 
> To be honest, I don't understand the resistance to it. Why wouldn't you _want_​ to know this stuff? It's useful.



It really isn't resistance to the knowledge, lasm. I just know that I was never a good student of anything. If there had been such a thing ass A.D.D. when I was a kid, I would have been the first one in my class diagnosed with it. I could not make myself pay attention to save my life. I struggle with it even now at 44 years old. If a subject doesn't really grab my attention, then my mind wanders very quickly to other things. I have a lot more control of it today than I used to, though. 

I know how useful the information can be. I just have to find different ways of _getting_ it. I can't have it put before me in technical terms. That just doesn't work for me.


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## Jeko (Mar 25, 2014)

> I won't be able to write a good story?
> 
> Hell...I may as well give up now since it appears I will be wasting my time.
> 
> ...



Anyone who writes is a student of writing; they're learning whether they like it or not. 

You will likely write gems onto a page without knowing how they came to be; but the more you understand about what makes writing work, the better you can produce it on demand.



> So there's no wrong way to write, but I'm doing it wrong.



There's no way that makes it wrong, but yes, writing is always flawed. Else, we'd have a 'perfect' story.


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## -AT (Mar 25, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> So there's no wrong way to write, but I'm doing it wrong. Or maybe just not quite right. LOL
> 
> *shakes head*





T.S.Bowman said:


> It really isn't resistance to the knowledge, lasm. I just know that I was never a good student of anything. If there had been such a thing ass A.D.D. when I was a kid, I would have been the first one in my class diagnosed with it. I could not make myself pay attention to save my life. I struggle with it even now at 44 years old. If a subject doesn't really grab my attention, then my mind wanders very quickly to other things. I have a lot more control of it today than I used to, though.
> 
> I know how useful the information can be. I just have to find different ways of _getting_ it. I can't have it put before me in technical terms. That just doesn't work for me.



You are fighting this point pretty hard. Everyone is basically saying it's good to have this knowledge when writing. Do what you will with this advice. 

Anyway, my thread has since been derailed from the original topic. Thank you so much for all the input. I was one the fence about using first-person past or present. I've updated my WIP thread to include my first chapter using both perspectives, if anyone would be so kind as to advise which one works better for my story. Thanks again!


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## Jeko (Mar 25, 2014)

> I just know that I was never a good student of anything.



I'd say becoming a member of a community as powerful as WF makes you an exceptional student.


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## T.S.Bowman (Mar 25, 2014)

KyleColorado said:


> Most writers understand these things things eventually. You'll learn it either through your own study, through intuition from your own work as shinyford pointed out, or you'll pick it up from reading the discussions and explanations of others.
> 
> The knowledge will come in one form or another. "Resistance is futile."
> 
> In the meantime, keep writing. :encouragement:



I have always said that I write what I like to read. I like to read good stories. I'm pretty sure I know how to put a good one together based a lot on the reading I have done. I know what works for me and what doesn't.

That's why I say I am not a technical, nuts and bolts, guy. I guess I write more intuitively than some. 

I do pick things up from the discussions here. I read most of the threads on a daily basis. I just don't post in some of them for fear of sounding like an idiot because half the time I don't know what the heck you guys are talking about.


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## T.S.Bowman (Mar 25, 2014)

Cadence said:


> I'd say becoming a member of a community as powerful as WF makes you an exceptional student.



Not sure how. I found this place more by chance than anything. LOL


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## Terry D (Mar 25, 2014)

There sure as hell* is* a wrong way to write. In fact, there are far more wrong ways than there are correct ways. That's why there is so much junk posted on critique sites and glutting the web and even in book stores. If a writer's 'way' is boring, or confusing, or in any other way makes it hard for the reader, then it is wrong. The 'standard' techniques--what many people mistakenly call 'rules'--are more common because readers relate to stories told in that manner. Taking the reader out of his/her comfort zone is not a bad thing, but to do it effectively the author needs to have the skills to pull it off. Skills which are not intuitive, not easy, and are learned over time. Alternative grammar, unconventional tense choices, mixed POV, and any other 'way' to write are perfectly fine until they make the story a pain-in-the-ass for the reader. At that point they are wrong, just like third person, past tense, single POV is wrong if it isn't done with enough skill to keep the reader engaged.


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## Jeko (Mar 25, 2014)

> There sure as hellis a wrong way to write.



There are wrong ways to tell a story, but the only wrong way to _write _is to not put pen to paper or finger to keyboard. That and failing to adhere to SPaG, I guess.

The 'way' is rarely wrong, IMO. It's the application in relation to purpose that counts.


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## ChristinaH (Mar 25, 2014)

I think, first person past tense implies a frame -- the events are over and you are telling from memory. The whole point of first person is to get the jagged immediate emotions and a non-omniscient view, right?

Third person present tense implies that the third person is in the scene. That doesn't make sense, right.

My worries about my new job are interrupted when the car abruptly stops. My new house. I get out and look while he gets my bags out of the trunk. Could I possibly be doing the right thing?

I agree with the original poster -- rewrite that in third person and it takes off the edge.


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## bazz cargo (Mar 26, 2014)

Hi AT,
I am by nature a contrarian. I have to find out for myself if the paint is wet and if I can get a good story out of first person present tense.  You would be amazed at what I learn through experimenting, falling flat on my face and taking a different view.


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