# Writing problem



## Killer Croc (Jun 6, 2010)

Hi everyone,

I'm writing a fiction book (I guess that's sort of obvious :mrgreen, and I'm determined to see it through start to finish.  I know what kind of books I love and the type that I want to write, and I've studied the books I like.

However, I'm finding that I frequently write a few pages and make good progress, and I like it a lot.  Then, a few days later, I'll read it again and hate it.  This happens enough that I don't make great progress, because I'm always replacing or rewriting, or wondering if "maybe I crammed too much action into that chapter."  I'm making an outline, but I wanted to write the first couple chapters since I know for sure the basic concept of the first chapters, and I'm willing to replace it later if necessary.

I know I could have someone else I know read it, but I really would  prefer for now it to not be read till it's finished.  And anyway, even if the work was actually good it would be awful for me to always dislike it.  I've been redoing this book for a long time, and I want to get going on it.

But I was wondering, is this a normal problem?  Does anybody else have this happen, and what do you do to fix it?

Thanks,
KC


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## Ilasir Maroa (Jun 6, 2010)

Yes, it is a normal problem.  One of the most common solutions is to not read it until you've finished a draft.


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## windswept_euphony (Jun 6, 2010)

You've actually described a prevalent problem for writers, out of the slew of others that our insecure, self-doubting breed faces. Developing an outline to build off of is a great start and useful road map for the rest of your writing. The best advice I can give is to not care too much about how you've written what you've written; care about the fact that you wrote it and move on. Don't fixate on how what you have down on paper sounds wrong or stupid or just not right. Keep writing through your story, referencing your outline and keeping the dialogue and events correct and well-oiled. Because you know what the kicker is? Even when you're done writing your book, you aren't finished. Edit after edit will come, and what you agonized over in the beginning will most likely be completely re-written a few times over.

Our dear, dry old friend Mr. Ernest Hemingway said it best: "The first draft of anything is shit."


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## Linton Robinson (Jun 6, 2010)

As so often, old Papa was vastly overstating things.   Maybe for him it was true.


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## Ilasir Maroa (Jun 6, 2010)

Plenty of people agree with Hemingway.

Now, not every first draft has to be shit.  But it's pretty like to seem like shit when you've just written, because what you _wanted_ to put on the page is still fresh in your mind to compare with what you've _actually _put on the page.


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## Linton Robinson (Jun 6, 2010)

> Plenty of people agree with Hemingway.



Plenty of people agree with Rush Limbaugh, Osama Bin Ladin, Adolf Hitler... so?

And plenty of people sell first drafts.

I hope this doesn't lead to another extended bone-gnawing session.


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## Ilasir Maroa (Jun 6, 2010)

Is Hemingway correct?  I don't know.  I haven't seen every first draft compared side-by-side to every final.  But many people agree with him.  As you said, perhaps it's true for them.  It's probably not true for everyone.  But it might possibly be true for the OP in regards to the story they are having trouble with.


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## Killer Croc (Jun 6, 2010)

Thank you so much everyone for the responses!

I must say, this is a real confidence booster, knowing that I am not alone with that problem.  I'll take your advice and just keep moving on, and edit it later.  I've restarted the book many times, but until this version I hadn't had an outline, so now I'll know ahead of time whether or not I like the story, so maybe once I finish the book I can focus more on the actual writing during the next few passes.

Thanks!


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## Linton Robinson (Jun 7, 2010)

Yep, it's the constant bicker boogie.  Should be good for another three or four pages and he's already repeating himself.
But it's very important to a forum to know that anything you might post there's this "moderator" just waiting to swoop in and contradict you for know reason whatsoever, then turn it into a marathon ankle-chewer.


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## Eden.Kaye (Jun 7, 2010)

My advice is to just keep writing, even if it is shitty. Just write it and finish it _then_ revise it.
I think this happens to a lot of people, including me.
I have about 15-20 stories unfinished because of this problem... I think it is time to take my own advice, lol.

-Eden


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## Ilasir Maroa (Jun 7, 2010)

Eden.Kaye said:


> My advice is to just keep writing, even if it is shitty. Just write it and finish it _then_ revise it.
> I think this happens to a lot of people, including me.
> I have about 15-20 stories unfinished because of this problem... I think it is time to take my own advice, lol.
> 
> -Eden




I'll cop to that, as well.  It's very easy to get discouraged on one project and move on to the next new and shiny.


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## Eden.Kaye (Jun 7, 2010)

It is! It's like writer's have their own form of ADD.


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## Ilasir Maroa (Jun 7, 2010)

Eden.Kaye said:


> It is! It's like writer's have their own form of ADD.





Well, most of the writers I know have more ideas than they know what to do with.  For short stories, this can be very valuable.  For longer work, it can be very distracting.  That's why you hear "finish something!" so often.


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## Eden.Kaye (Jun 7, 2010)

Oh I know what you mean. I seriously have started so many things because I have so many ideas I just need to actually finish them, hah.


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## Ilasir Maroa (Jun 7, 2010)

Eden.Kaye said:


> Oh I know what you mean. I seriously have started so many things because I have so many ideas I just need to actually finish them, hah.



I wish I had that problem with poetry.  I wouldn't mind my fiction side cutting back on it, though.


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## Eden.Kaye (Jun 7, 2010)

Ilasir Maroa said:


> I wish I had that problem with poetry.  I wouldn't mind my fiction side cutting back on it, though.



What do you mean?


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## Ilasir Maroa (Jun 7, 2010)

I mean I haven't had a good idea for a poem in a long time, but I already have more novel ideas than I could execute in a lifetime.


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## Eden.Kaye (Jun 7, 2010)

Oh, okay. Yea I don't have very many poem ideas either. I wish I did, because I love poetry.


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## Ilasir Maroa (Jun 7, 2010)

Eden.Kaye said:


> Oh, okay. Yea I don't have very many poem ideas either. I wish I did, because I love poetry.


 
I used to write two or three a week. But recently I've only started one a month, and never finished.


Oops, we're drifting a bit off-topic.

Well, I guess technically I had trouble finishing the poems because I hated what I was writing the next day.  Safe!


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## Eden.Kaye (Jun 7, 2010)

oops =]
we just need to finish our ideas. 
just keep writing!


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## Ilasir Maroa (Jun 7, 2010)

Yeah.  The best way to improve as a writer in any genre or format is to finish things.  That applies to the OP and to many other situations.


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## darknite_johanne (Jun 7, 2010)

Sometimes we're just too hard on ourselves. Post it. then let others be harsh to you at least when they give it to you, it's true harshness.


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## Ilasir Maroa (Jun 7, 2010)

darknite_johanne said:


> Sometimes we're just too hard on ourselves. *Post it. then let others be harsh to you* at least when they give it to you, it's true harshness.



That's the attitude we need more of!


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## Eden.Kaye (Jun 7, 2010)

I agree with darknite. you have to finish it, post it, and then take in all the criticism (good and bad) 
Well said, Darknite!


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## karax268 (Jun 7, 2010)

Ilasir Maroa said:


> Well, most of the writers I know have more ideas than they know what to do with. For short stories, this can be very valuable. For longer work, it can be very distracting. That's why you hear "finish something!" so often.



This is exactly my problem. I have about 4-5 story ideas in my head that could easily turn into series. They are all dancing around in my head, screaming for attention. When I decide to write one of them, it goes well, for a time. When I reread it, I think it's crap and the other story's come back urging me to abandon that work and start something new. I don't think I would have that problem if I had only one idea though.

In the end it's just a mental issue, something that can be overcome, I just have to find someway that works for me.


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## Ilasir Maroa (Jun 7, 2010)

karax268 said:


> This is exactly my problem. I have about 4-5 story ideas in my head that could easily turn into series. They are all dancing around in my head, screaming for attention. When I decide to write one of them, it goes well, for a time. When I reread it, I think it's crap and the other story's come back urging me to abandon that work and start something new. I don't think I would have that problem if I had only one idea though.
> 
> In the end it's just a mental issue, something that can be overcome, I just have to find someway that works for me.




That's how it goes.


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## garza (Jun 7, 2010)

Hasn't the computer killed the whole idea of a first draft? In the old days we beat out that first draft on a typewriter or scratched it out with pencil and paper. Editing and rewriting pretty much had to wait until that was done. Today I never finish what you would call a first draft. I'm constantly sliding back to change a word, shift the voice, do something to try and make the sentence I just typed a bit better. I call it editing on the fly, and the result is that when the end of the piece is reached, it's ready to go out the door. 

Longer works, like an extended series of articles or a book, are allowed to age for a few weeks before being checked over one last time, and there are always little bits and pieces that need looking after. But with a text editor - I don't use a word processor - that final round of editing, even when you are talking about three or four hundred pages, is relatively painless.

In the field there's still a pocket notebook and two mechanical pencils in my shirt pocket. I've not forgotten how to put the words right onto the paper.


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## Sam (Jun 7, 2010)

I edit on the fly, too. Unless I'm totally in that recherché place us writers like to call "the zone". I'll always read over my work the next day, and usually that involves editing words, changing sentences, and omitting needless phrases. My first draft is usually 90% of what my finished draft will be.


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## garza (Jun 7, 2010)

Sometimes you don't  have a day. A magazine editor or tv producer calls you Monday morning and says 'fly to N___ tonight, meet M___ tomorrow and go with him to the village he'll show you. Get me five thousand words before Wednesday. And be careful. They shoot strangers there.'

And yes, it can be done.


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## Sam (Jun 7, 2010)

I've no doubt it can. I wrote 20,000 words in one day just a few months back.


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## Killer Croc (Jun 7, 2010)

Well, it definitely sounds as though I should keep on going until the first pass is done.  It's such a relief to hear that others have the same problem and that it's very common.

@Garza: yeah I also edit on the fly, I can't really help it   And Sam W, I know what you mean by "the Zone."  Those can be the best writing days.

I don't feel comfortable posting my work.  I have some of what I would consider very original ideas, and for security I don't allow my work to be seen by anyone else, at least not unless it got published.  However I appreciate the suggestion very much.

All of you have been a really big help, and I thank you for it!!

Thanks,
KC


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## garza (Jun 7, 2010)

If an editor finds out you can do 20k in one day he'll expect you to do 20k every day and then writing becomes work and the reason I became a writer in the first place was to avoid work. During my most active years I had some of them trained to take whatever I sent and be happy with it.  Of course the secret to that is no secret. Have the material they need and they'll pay you for it. I have aleays tried to give value for money.


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## Ilasir Maroa (Jun 7, 2010)

Depending on how you write, fiction can be different from non-fiction.  If you aren't a hard-core outliner, then there might not be a point editing on the fly, because whole scenes are going to be added or removed, and so it's more reasonable to polish at the end.  Some authors even re-draft a story, where you write it again from scratch, in which case on-the-fly-polishing has almost no valur whatsoever.  *This doesn't apply to everyone*, but I've seen plenty of published authors discuss it, so it's something to be aware of.


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## garza (Jun 7, 2010)

No system is best for everyone. From the time computers became available I've found editiing on the fly to be my best way of working. That sentence is a good example. I was half way through it when I saw that the way i was going was clumsy. I held down the backspace for a second or two and started the sentence over. But I'm sure there are others who work better getting all the way to the end, then going back and editing.


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## Ilasir Maroa (Jun 7, 2010)

I edit on the fly if I've made a clear grammatical or spelling error.  Not so much for small revisions on the word or sentence level.  But as we've both said, different circumstances, different choices.


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## Killer Croc (Jun 7, 2010)

Thank you both, I understand what you mean.  I'm not completely sure yet what's best for me in terms of editing, but I definitely edit on the fly if like you said it's an obvious error of grammar.  I'm finding that I do best if I focus on sticking to the outline so I can make it to the end of the first draft, then I'll worry about finer changes or replacing sections for the second pass.

I can't believe I didn't have an outline before; it's so much easier knowing that I already like the story and the flow so I can just focus on writing.


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## Reese (Jun 17, 2010)

Well, do you plan to try to publish your work at some point? Then you need to stick to the "me-standard." It's a standard where an author uses the "trail-and-error" method to establish what they are saying. Re-reading and revising is all part of the process for publication. You need to find YOUR type of writing.

You need to think of what you are trying to say, and then think of the literal word usage that compliments it the best.

If you're picked up for publication, then you'll be following the "editor-standard." 

But what should differentiate yourself from others is really how you use words to express what you are feeling. Not only that, but it is also about how acurately and honestly you are expressing yourself as you write.


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## Killer Croc (Jun 17, 2010)

Reese said:


> Well, do you plan to try to publish your work at some point? Then you need to stick to the "me-standard." It's a standard where an author uses the "trail-and-error" method to establish what they are saying. Re-reading and revising is all part of the process for publication. You need to find YOUR type of writing.


 
Yep, I do hope to get it published someday, once I'm finally finished and happy with it.  I understand what you mean, I think I'm starting to find that "standard."  I'm finally becoming comfortable with my own style, and this time around I think I really like how the book's going.  I looked back on one of my previous version and _hated_ it, so I think I've come a long ways.

Thanks for the tip; I'll keep that in mind!


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## woodpanel (Jun 18, 2010)

Killer Croc, I have no constructive advice but I wanted to say: I relate completely! I've been there myself too, over and over.


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## thewordsmith (Jun 18, 2010)

windswept_euphony said:


> Our dear, dry old friend Mr. Ernest Hemingway said it best: "The first draft of anything is shit."



I think Hemingway was trying to make the point that, after the first draft (and, in many cases *during* the first draft, depending upon how you choose to write) there is always the editing and the cleaning-up and the fine-tuning, etc.  Maybe it's not shit but it still isn't finished even after it's finished.

Get the story down and _then_ you can go back and fix what appears to be broken.


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## Killer Croc (Jun 18, 2010)

woodpanel said:


> Killer Croc, I have no constructive advice but I wanted to say: I relate completely! I've been there myself too, over and over.


 
 I appreciate you saying so; it's good to know that others are in the same boat.  I think the boat's going to make it to the other side, it just might tip around sometimes 

But if you have the same problem, woodpanel, I recommend that you try to just keep on going even if you're not too sure.  So far taking everyone's advice (by seeing it through and not worrying about whether or not it's good until I finish the first draft) has worked for me.

I'm sure we'll both get past this problem with some practice :mrgreen:


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## windswept_euphony (Jun 23, 2010)

thewordsmith said:


> I think Hemingway was trying to make the point that, after the first draft (and, in many cases *during* the first draft, depending upon how you choose to write) there is always the editing and the cleaning-up and the fine-tuning, etc.  Maybe it's not shit but it still isn't finished even after it's finished.



That is how I interpreted it, and is precisely why I included the quote. "No first draft is going to be the final draft, so don't get too attached to it."


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## Killer Croc (Jun 23, 2010)

windswept_euphony said:


> "No first draft is going to be the final draft, so don't get too attached to it."



I can assure you that will never happen for me; for me the opposite is true, fighting the urge to rewrite or discard it.


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