# The Pyramid of Publishing Success



## The Backward OX

I am indebted, via Lin, to Mike C for the following. It interests me not at all, however I figured someone else might get something from it.



This isn't my idea, and when I first was told it, I thought it was a little whacked - it's counter-intuitive in many ways, but makes a lot of sense. I always say you should aim high - this effectively does the same thing, but in a more structured way. *This is for short fiction/articles, not novels.*

1 Decide where you eventually want to place your work, when you can say you've 'made it'. Say, for example, the New Yorker. Top of the tree. Write "New Yorker" at the top of your page.

Visit their website, look at their links page, look for mentions of other mags they respect. Some will be slightly lower down the tree. 

2 Pick 3 or 4 of these, and write them below New Yorker.

3 Visit their websites, pick 3 or 4 of the lesser mags that they read and respect. Write them down on the next line (You see the pyramid forming already?) and visit their sites.

4 Repeat the process until you get down to the lowly e-zines and non-paying print mags.

Now, assuming you're actually writing, and have a store of stories ready to roll, start submitting to the bottom line.

Yes, I can hear some bleating already - "But my story is too damn good for the Zarg webzine!" - but tough shit. This is where you have to realise that no story is ever too good. If you've written it already, you can write more and you can write better. If you don't think you can, then stop writing and repeat after me - "Would you like fries with that?"

Writing is an evolutionary process, and so is publication. If you're reasonably competent getting accepted in a few places on the bottom line will not be too hard. And with every story you write, you get a little better. And with every acceptance, a little more confident.

Once you have your first acceptance on the bottom line, follow that thread up to the next - one of the mags that reads and likes and respects the publication you're now accepted by. Submit to them, and now in your bio you can say you have something appearing in a mag they know about, and respect - if they respect the mag, they'll automatically have a slightly higher regard for you for being in it.

At the same time, keep writing and submitting to the other bottom liners, only moving up a row at a time as you get the acceptance, then moving on to the next mag(s) in the thread.

The idea is that as your bio and reptuation grow, as you submit further and further up the pyramid each editor will see in your bio a list of publications in mags he recognises. That gives you instant kudos. Your writing, of course, has to be up to the mark, but any extra advantage is all to the good. 

And as you rise up the pyramid, your ability as a writer and your confidence will grow exponentially.

What's that? More bleating? "But I'll have to write hundreds of stories!" "It'll take forever!"

Here's the thing, kiddies - there's no short-cuts. The dictionary is the only place where success comes before work. If you don't think you can handle it, step away from the keyboard, leave your writing pretensions behind and repeat after me "Can I supersize that for you?"

There are no guarantees of success, but a strategic approach and a willingness to work hard give you a 96% advantage over most other people who write.


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## MeeQ

> a willingness to work hard give you a 96% advantage over most other people who write.


 
Curious where this statistic comes from?


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## Ilasir Maroa

That's the opposite version of the pyramid that I've heard a lot of people propose, but still a viable strategy.


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## garza

Actually it's a very curious statistic since the reason I've been writing all my life is to avoid work.

But there's a simpler and surer way of getting to where you want to be than making long lists. Write your way up from the local newspaper, if your town still has one, or radio station or tv station. This works best for teen-agers, so wait till your 13th birthday and walk into your hometown media house with a story that has a lot of local family names, a strictly here-and-now story about a scout campout, a special church programme, the local garden club, whatever. These are events reporters are not sent to cover, but they are events that will have local interest and if a decently written story lands on the editor's desk and he has a bit of space to spare, he'll use it. Do that on a regular basis. Soon you will start to collect a bit of coin for your writing, and soon after they'll start calling on you, and you're in. 

Once you have your foot on the bottom rung, all you have to do is climb, and you'll never have to look for a job. 

Work hard? Nonsense. If I'd wanted to work I'd never have become a writer.


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## Ilasir Maroa

I think that's more to do with different people's definitions of "hard work", garza.


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## Linton Robinson

Writing is not hard work.  You do some hard work and the difference impresses upon you immediately.


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## daisydaisy

Great advice. I will print that off and stick it on my wall as a reminder.

And to those of you who argue that writing is not hard work...no, perhaps it's not. But getting published is damn hard work!


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## garza

daisydaisy - When you start at the bottom and take it step by step, publishing is no more difficult than the writing. Start with local newspapers and the obscure little literary mags that often beg for submissions. Build a portfolio and work your way up. 

Or head to a destination like Afghanistan, Iraq, Korea, or the West Bank and start pestering the wire services and syndicates with stories. If they are well written and offer a viewpoint different from staff and stringers already in the area you will start to be noticed, and editors will start to use what you send.

Neither approach guarantees success. Either approach, or others similar to these such as getting on at a local radio or tv station, can lead you step by step to where you want to be. 

Over a ten year period, from my mid teens to my mid 20s I did all of the above. Your goal should always be the next rung up the ladder, and the most important goal of all is not the top of the ladder, but the first rung.


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## daisydaisy

garza said:


> daisydaisy - When you start at the bottom and take it step by step, publishing is no more difficult than the writing. Start with local newspapers and the obscure little literary mags that often beg for submissions. Build a portfolio and work your way up.
> 
> Or head to a destination like Afghanistan, Iraq, Korea, or the West Bank and start pestering the wire services and syndicates with stories. If they are well written and offer a viewpoint different from staff and stringers already in the area you will start to be noticed, and editors will start to use what you send.
> 
> Neither approach guarantees success. Either approach, or others similar to these such as getting on at a local radio or tv station, can lead you step by step to where you want to be.
> 
> Over a ten year period, from my mid teens to my mid 20s I did all of the above. Your goal should always be the next rung up the ladder, and the most important goal of all is not the top of the ladder, but the first rung.



I agree with you. I was just trying to get the point across that writing is still a job, and not really the easy option. Not many make a living out of this game, it takes work.

Some good points raised there though, thanks for the tips.


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## strangedaze

This pyramid dealie is exactly what I did / do / have been doing. I approve.


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## garza

daisydaisy - Whether it takes work depends on how you define work. 

Writing, photography, and today video production and web page design are all fun things to do. When forces loyal to his excellency the President-for-Life smash your camera, throw your notebook in the river, beat you up, and toss you across the road hoping the rebels will shoot you and the rebels don't shoot you or toss you back you know you've got some great copy to file. 

Fun things, even sometimes uncomfortable and potentially deadly fun things, are not defined as 'work' in my personal dictionary.

Edit - Lest what I say be misunderstood, I _do not_ mean to say that no effort is involved. A great deal of effort is involved in learning how to do anything well, including writing. 

Suppose there's a kid who loves football. HIs ambition is to be the best keeper in his league. He can't just stand on the sideline and watch. That can help, but to be good he has to put in effort. He has to get in front of the goal and learn how to block those penalty kicks, learn how to be in position watching that chancy striker who is going to try to slip one by him. 

Effort, yes. Lots of effort. Work? Depends on your definition.


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## daisydaisy

Yes, you're right, but I do see a difference in writing for love and writing for money. I have oodles of fun writing all kinds of things, but getting it to a good enough standard for publication, and then finding someone to read it and publish it can be a loooooong process.


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## garza

daisydaisy - But you, a Shropshire lass of sturdy stock, have the ability and the sticktoittivness which together bring success.

If you're near Shrewsbury and you see Bro. Cadfael, do tell him 'Dduw bendithia 'r gweithia' for me.


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## daisydaisy

Haha! I am indeed near Shrewsbury. Will send your regards to Brother Cadfael when I'm next in his parish.


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## Olly Buckle

Off topic, daisydaisy please check your visitor messages on your profile page.


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## The Backward OX

garza - You're playing semantics with your constant references to writing not being work and with the acknowledgement that effort is required. They are one and the same. If you want to insist that you enjoy writing and that therefore for you it isn’t work, you need to find some other way to express it. In my humble opinion, that is.
*work*
  /wɜrk/ Show Spelled [wurk] Show IPA *noun, adjective, verb, *worked or ( _Archaic _except for 35, 37, 40 ) wrought; working. 
*–noun *
*1. *
exertion or effort directed to produce or accomplish something; labor; toil. 

*effort *(ˈɛfət) 

— *n *

1. ​
physical or mental exertion, usually considerable when unqualified: _the rock was moved with effort _


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## garza

Ox - A good tennis _player_ expends a great deal of energy, 'works' in the physical sense. I know, because I played tennis one time for about 15 minutes. That was work. For the person who enjoys the game, loves the game, it's play, not work. I love to write. I love to teach writing. I love to take pictures. I love to teach people how to take pictures. I love taking part in radio and tv programmes. I love writing, photographing, and producing videos. I love setting up Web pages. All these things provide countless hours of entertainment, and, by a fortunate twist of fate, can also provide cash money to pay the rent and buy the groceries. 

Since I was 14 years old I have not engaged in any professional activity that I did not love and that I did not thoroughly enjoy. Now, have I 'worked', or played, for these past 56 years?


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## Olly Buckle

Look at it this way Gaza, either it is all semantics and work you get paid for, play you do purely for fun, or, I have barely done a days work since I chucked in my steady job of two and a half years when I was eighteen and a half.


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## writeratdesk

Sound advice, thank you for sharing.

Steve


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## garza

It's all in how we personally define what we do. I don't define what I've done all my life as work, not even the chancy bits, or, perhaps, especially not the chancy bits. Of course I was a lot younger during the chancy bits of my life. I was immortal. We're all immortal when we're young. I got damaged a couple of times, but never doubted that I'd live to make it to a peaceful old age. 

It's been a very, very good life. 'Work', as defined by me, has played no part in it, and now that I have achieved that peaceful old age I can look back and say I wouldn't change a minute of it, and neither would I change places with anyone.

To young people I always offer the advice given me by my grandfather. Find something you love to do that pays a decent living, do that, and you'll never have to work.


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## The Backward OX

garza - if we _all_ sought to earn the rent and groceries money that way, who’d be left to carry out the abortions and autopsies and ablution-block cleansing?


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## garza

Why, the people who love to do abortions or autopsies, or who see ablution-block cleansing as entertainment, that's who.

My son likes to build things. When he was in high school he spent summers employed by a roofing contractor, kneeling on a hot roof in the blazing sun nailing down roof shingles, and loved it. Today he has his own company building houses and strip malls and such, but he still loves to get in with the crew and mix cement or plaster a wall. He's never read a book for pleasure, but has hundreds of books on construction, building codes, and such. 

He's never had to work for a living.


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## Auskar

I like your advice, Backward Ox.  I write short fiction and I was working at lower and lower acceptance ratios.  This pyramid makes sense (duh!).  Who is Mike C...?


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## garza

What's the benefit of sitting and making lists when you should be writing? The bottom rung of the ladder is right in your home town. Almost anyone can get a foot in with local media. 

I know a fellow who went to work at a local tv station as a janitor while he was in high school. He learned all he could, was moved up to cameraman, and has now retired after a successful career as a producer of documentaries which he wrote and directed. 

Goal setting is another of those failed concepts we hear a lot about when we are young. 'Keep your eye on the prize' is a good slogan, but paying attention to getting your foot on the next rung up the ladder is the way you'll reach the top.


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## Auskar

garza said:


> What's the benefit of sitting and making lists when you should be writing?


A boxer does not become a boxer by hitting a heavy bag or sparring all the time.  There is a certain amount of "making a plan" that goes into it.



garza said:


> The bottom rung of the ladder is right in your home town. Almost anyone can get a foot in with local media.  I know a fellow who went to work at a local tv station as a janitor while he was in high school.  He learned all he could, was moved up to cameraman, and has now retired after a successful career as a producer of documentaries which he wrote and directed.


I'm not beginning my professional life.  I did that.  I'm sixteen years younger than you.  What I can do -on my own schedule, not someone else's - is that I can write.  I've written lots of marketing materials, for on-line newspapers and lots of content for my own web site and newsletters and sold those newsletters.  I don't want to be a writer.  I want to be a writer of creative fiction.  That is different from what I've done in the past.



garza said:


> Goal setting is another of those failed concepts we hear a lot about when we are young. 'Keep your eye on the prize' is a good slogan, but paying attention to getting your foot on the next rung up the ladder is the way you'll reach the top.


I've written about thirty short stories and a novel.  I'm getting published in non-paying markets.  I'm looking to get published on the next rung up the ladder.  That's why I like the pyramid.  It helps to figure out where the "next rung" is located.


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## garza

That's advice I offer young people because it's what worked for me, and I've seen it work for a lot of other people. 

Like you I've decided I want to learn to write fiction, which is why I'm here. At my age whether any is ever published is beside the point. Taxiday is older than I am though, and apparently is launched on a new fiction writing career. I'm just interested in adding fiction writing as one more craft I know. Getting a story published would be a nice extra.


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## Auskar

We're working on the same thing.  Among other reasons, that's why that won't work for me.  I want to change - and publish fiction.  

My back-up plan will be a web site.  That's why the avatar is what it is.

That last story, *One Soldier's Reason*, is actually the last to get accepted, but the first to appear (since last summer). Untied Shoelaces of the Mind is a "semi-pro" market.  *Faceless* is coming out soon in Short-Story.me for a "token" fee.  *Androids in the Garden* is non-paid and comes out probably on November 1.  Finally, *Beauty Wears a Gun* is also non-paid and comes out soon in Golden Visions.  All are ezines.  All appear in the next couple of months.  

I need to work my way up the pyramid until I am publishing in Professional Markets.  That's my goal.


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## garza

I checked out your website and read _One Soldier's Reason_. Good read.

He reminds me of a friend of mine, a radio engineer who went back to Vietnam as many times as they'd let him. As a kid he was good natured, happy, completely obsessed from about the age of ten with electronics. He was drafted, sent to a remote special forces training camp, then to Viet Nam. He came back and the Army sent him to another remote special forces camp and back to Viet Nam. I'm not sure, but I think he spent six years over there, if that's possible. (reporters didn't have a time limit - stay as long as you like or until you have some significant part of your body shot off) 

The last time I saw him we met at a coffee shop in Biloxi. He showed me the inside of his van. There was a 16 gauge pump shotgun with the plug out and loaded with five Brenneke slugs in a ready-clip inside the driver's door. An AK-47 was in a sort of saddle holster by the right side of the driver's seat. A nine mm S&W was in another holster attached to the centre-front of the driver's seat, just below knee level. He carried a little .32 in his back pocket and a .38 Chief's Special and a spool of black thread in the glove box. He showed me two pieces of one-inch pvc about eight inches long and capped at each end with a thread hanging out of a hole in one end and taped to the pipe. He assured me that each contained four ounces of C-4. That's when I figured out what the thread was for.

We sat in the coffee shop, laughed and joked, traded war stories, talked about radio, and he was perfectly fine until one of the local Vietnamese fishermen walked in. My friend froze. So much blood drained out of his face I was afraid he would faint. I've never seen anyone turn that pale that quickly. He very carefully put his cup on the table and started to shake and sweat. He sat and stared at the fisherman for about ten seconds, then said 'let's get out of here', and practically ran for the door. I've not seen him since, but I hope he got help.


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## Auskar

Thank you for reading *One Soldier's Reason*.  I really do thank you.  Please tell others.  I hope the story helps former soldiers, and I hope it helps civilians understand former soldiers.  Lots of people run toward weapons and others run away from them.  The reasons they do each one, I don't completely understand.


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## garza

A civilian is what I've always been. I tried to join the Navy. They said I was too nearsighted. The Army said the same thing. Even the Air Force wouldn't take me and that sort of hurt my feelings. I had to arrange for my own transport - going to New Orleans and signing on as wiper on a tramp. I still have my seaman's document. It's expired, but I still carry it. And I'm still armed the way I was then - notebook, pencil, and camera.  

The more of your stories that are published in such places as 'Shoelaces' the better your chance of being picked up by a major publishing house. You will do yourself a favour if you find a good agent along the way. Writers know about writing, agents know about publishing.


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## Auskar

That's my plan.  I hope to get published at better and better places, and eventually, agents will take notice.  I want an agent.  I'll give them my book (once I rewrite it) and tell them to go to town.  Is it a lot of effort?  Yes.  Eventually, I hope to just write.  And sign books.  And do promotion.  It doesn't stop.  It just changes.


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## garza

You will need to go to the agents, they won't come to you. At least, the honest ones won't. Google for 'literary agents' and you'll find plenty of listings, along with tips on finding the right agent and how to go about lining one up. There are published fictioners here who will probably have some good advice.


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## Ilasir Maroa

Auskar-- I'm not sure you're at the point where you need/want an agent yet, but when you are, I can point you to some very useful resources.


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## strangedaze

garza said:


> You will need to go to the agents, they won't come to you. At least, the honest ones won't.



thats not true at all. an agency will get most of its clients by agent solicitation and referral. so, for example, if "One Soldier's Reason" wins a Pushcart prize, and the next story you write gets picked up by Best American Short Stories or something, you bet your ass someone's going to take notice and ask what you're working on. 

sure, you can still go to an agent with an unsolicited manuscript, and it's possible that they'll take it, but more and more, an agent will sign someone that comes 'recommended' in one form or another, whether it's through another client, an editor, a social network, or publication.


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## garza

I've never suggested going to any agent with an unsolicited manuscript. That would be stupid. When I was very young I was told to build a portfolio of published works, then query agencies with a list of those published works and any recommendations I could get from _editors_ and _publishers_. It's their opinions that count, no one else's. That's what I did after selling my writing for a few years, and it worked. But that was more than 40 years ago. A few things have changed since then.

I don't know what a 'social network' is. Is that like, making the rounds of the cocktail parties on the Upper East Side? I'm too low class for that bunch. They look down their collective noses at people who make a living writing, unless what you have written is in the top ten of the NY Times best seller list. Articles about wars in Asia and revolutions in Central America bore them.

I guess fiction is different in regard to getting an agent as well as in other ways. I've always been told that if anyone claiming to be an agent calls, I should hang up. Come to think of it, it was my old agent who told me that. I had the same agent for over 35 years, and he didn't find me, I found him. We had a mutually profitable relationship until he died. I more or less retired at the same time, but have maintained ties with a couple of syndicates who've used my material in the past, and have begun writing for NGOs, U-N agencies, and government agencies that need articles, newsletters, policy papers, and such, just to keep my hand in and to have a bit of extra change in my pocket.


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## Auskar

Ilasir Maroa said:


> Auskar-- I'm not sure you're at the point where you need/want an agent yet, but when you are, I can point you to some very useful resources.



To everyone that commented:

I feel like I am on the "verge" or "cusp" of _beginning_ success, but not quite there.  On the same day last week, two editors with low acceptance ratios told me they weren't buying my stuff but it was "close."  Yesterday, I got a rejection note from Stanley Schmidt of Analog and I don't know if that means anything or not.  My previous rejections from that magazine weren't signed by anyone.

But when I look for agents or they contact me - I will check them out before agreeing to anything.  I write mostly science fiction.  In other work, I have written one modern fantasy story, sprinkled a few horror stories into the mix, some mainstream, and some stories that I refer to as, "slightly humorous."  

If someone is recommended (and they check out), that's great, fortuitous, fantastic (and other superlative adjectives).  Referrals count.


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## garza

You are probably correct - you are 'on the cusp' and I wish you well. 

Ilasir Maroa would be a good person to turn to for advice on agents, also the skipper himself, Baron. I've not published any fiction for nearly 50 years since I decided to stick with what had already proven to be more profitable for me.


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## strangedaze

garza said:


> I guess fiction is different in regard to getting an agent as well as in other ways. I've always been told that if anyone claiming to be an agent calls, I should hang up. Come to think of it, it was my old agent who told me that. I had the same agent for over 35 years, and he didn't find me, I found him. We had a mutually profitable relationship until he died. I more or less retired at the same time, but have maintained ties with a couple of syndicates who've used my material in the past, and have begun writing for NGOs, U-N agencies, and government agencies that need articles, newsletters, policy papers, and such, just to keep my hand in and to have a bit of extra change in my pocket.


 
Not sure why your agent would tell you to hang up. The agency I worked for approached a number of authors who ended up getting book deals. 

As for 'social networking,' it sounds to be like you're already doing it by 'keeping your hand in' with NGOs etc. But what I meant was getting to know people who have agents and can act as a referral for you and your manuscript.


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## Ilasir Maroa

strangedaze said:


> thats not true at all. an agency will get most of its clients by agent solicitation and referral. so, for example, if "One Soldier's Reason" wins a Pushcart prize, and the next story you write gets picked up by Best American Short Stories or something, you bet your ass someone's going to take notice and ask what you're working on.
> 
> sure, you can still go to an agent with an unsolicited manuscript, and it's possible that they'll take it, but more and more, an agent will sign someone that comes 'recommended' in one form or another, whether it's through another client, an editor, a social network, or publication.





There are plenty of agents who take things on from the slush pile, and I know several writers who have gotten picked up that way.

Which is not to say that a client or editor can't rec you, but that's really not the most common way.


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## Auskar

First, I don't know what an NGO is (non-governmental organization?)...

Second, I'm not sure if Ilasir means most agents get their clients from the slush pile, a recommendation, or just notice an author in a particular magazine (or ezine) or whatever.

I'm curious and want to know pretty much everything important.


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## garza

He told me to hang up on any other agent because we had a very profitable relationship for years and he didn't want to lose me as a client. I have no need to find another agent this late in life. I have more offers than I have any need for now, so I can pick and choose the ones that I'm really interested in doing and let younger folk take the rest. 

I would only need an agent if I decided to try to publish fiction, and that's not likely to happen. I want to learn as much about it as I can, but I know I'll never produce anything that anyone would want to publish. And from what you are all saying it sounds as though the world of fiction publishing is a whole different place, and the system I used 40 years ago to find an agent wouldn't work for fiction and maybe wouldn't work at all these days.


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## strangedaze

Ah, I see. That makes sense. I think I misunderstood what you were saying  

Ilasir - I wasn't saying that agents don't take from the slush pile or that it's not a viable way to get an agent. It certainly happens. What I was saying is that the majority of new clients picked up by the agency I worked with came from recommendations or solicitation. Moreover, all of the people I know personally who have agents got them via referral / solicitation. It might be the case that I live in a pretty fertile area for publishing, where that kind of thing happens a lot. 

Agents do take work from the slush pile. It's just the least effective way to go about getting one.


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## garza

An NGO is a Non Governmental Organisation funded either from private sources or from agencies such as the European Union, United Nations Development Programme, and such. Many of them have a great deal of money to spend and are very generous with contract personnel. An NGO typically generates a massive amount of paper work, and someone needs to prepare it. Most is handled by paid staff, but quite a bit is handed off to private contractors There are reports to be written, policy recommendations, brochures, Power Point presentations, videos, web sites, material for radio and tv, to be prepared.  

To give an example, I prepared material last year for the Belize Rural Develpment Programme, BRDP, with funding from the European Union . I spent a lot of time in the field, going along with BRDP field workers to see projects in villages all over the country. Much of what I saw and heard went into a weekly 15 minute radio programme sponsored by BRDP. I also did news reports about BRDP and other European Union projects. The BRDP projects ranged from helping a street vendor get a cargo tricycle, to womens' sewing groups, to soya milk processing, all the way up to a new farmers' market for the Cayo District costing over  half a million dollars. My relationship with BRDP led to me being asked to take on a couple of projects for the Food and Agriculture Organisation of the United Nations, and contract work with the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries. The funding for the first cycle of BRDP ran out in February, but a new cycle will begin in 2011.


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## strangedaze

Auskar said:


> First, I don't know what an NGO is (non-governmental organization?)...
> 
> Second, I'm not sure if Ilasir means most agents get their clients from the slush pile, a recommendation, or just notice an author in a particular magazine (or ezine) or whatever.
> 
> I'm curious and want to know pretty much everything important.


 
NGO does mean non-gov't organization, and it's not really pertinent to publishing except in garza's case. 

I think what Ilasir was saying is that most agents get their clients from the slush pile, which is partly true (in my experience). By that I mean, agents DO pick up clients via the slush pile. It's just easier to get an agent if you're referred or solicited.


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## Ilasir Maroa

strangedaze said:


> Ah, I see. That makes sense. I think I misunderstood what you were saying
> 
> Ilasir - I wasn't saying that agents don't take from the slush pile or that it's not a viable way to get an agent. It certainly happens. What I was saying is that the majority of new clients picked up by the agency I worked with came from recommendations or solicitation. Moreover, all of the people I know personally who have agents got them via referral / solicitation. It might be the case that I live in a pretty fertile area for publishing, where that kind of thing happens a lot.
> 
> Agents do take work from the slush pile. It's just the least effective way to go about getting one.


 

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, sorry. 

It has been my experience with authors I have talked to, mostly online, that they got their agents through the slush pile. I've also heard several agents make this claim. Wether or not the slush is the most effective method of getting an agent, a very high proportion of debut writers seem to have taken this route.

To be clear, my experience comes strictly from the area of genre fiction novels, and mostly spec fic within that category. Perhaps literary fiction authors, or some other group mainly snag an agent through referals or solicitation.


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## strangedaze

That's okay - I didn't think you were putting words in my mouth at all. I think it's really heartening that people are scoring agents via the slush pile. I'm sure a lot of it depends on the agency and circumstance. Most of the people I was referring to already had a body of work - stories in magazines, prize nominations, etc - that caught the eye of people. 

In any case, just because you don't have a referral or whatever doesn't mean you can't get an agent. That's pretty clear. I just wanted to refute the claim that 'honest' agents don't approach people.


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## Ilasir Maroa

Oh, okay. I agree.  Plenty of folks get approached by honest agents who have seen their work, both for prizes and just in good mags.  There are plenty of better indicators about who's a scam agent.


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