# Tea Time (Haiku)



## Punnikin (Dec 12, 2011)

Delicate teacup
Sugar, cream in pekoe tea
And, of course, a fly


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## S.M. grimbldoo (Dec 20, 2011)

that one little fly


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## Martin (Dec 21, 2011)

The only haiku relation I find this has, is the unnecessary 5-7-5 structure, which I btw think is forced upon the piece. If you wanna practice haiku, I suggest you forget about the 5-7-5 and do an internet search and read about all the other aspects there's to it.


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## S.M. grimbldoo (Dec 21, 2011)

Martin said:


> The only haiku relation I find this has, is the unnecessary 5-7-5 structure


 If it doesn't have 5-7-5 then it's not a Haiku.



Martin said:


> I suggest you forget about the 5-7-5 and do an internet search and read about all the other aspects there's to it


 This is actually similar to the Haikus put into English textbooks are written, so...


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## Martin (Dec 22, 2011)

S.M. grimbldoo, please do some research, and you'll find that in contemporary English haiku, it's vastly accepted to not go by the 5-7-5. Simply read the published English haikuists, and you'll see...

Understanding the various aspects to haiku is also what will make you write proper haiku. I believe it's quite a mindful process and worth the effort. I could go on here, what I understand constitutes a haiku, but it seems I've done that over and over again on these boards. Besides there's plenty of sites online explaining haiku. Be sure not to just read one of them.

Off topic I still think a sticky in here, highlighting the various styles and aspects, would make for a more educative experience and most likely produce some more quality pieces.


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## Punnikin (Dec 22, 2011)

Yet the author specifically chose this syllabic structure because he enjoys the restrictions of it. I consider contemproary English haiku to be an affront to the spirit of haiku, and a perversion that is, in and of itself, unnecessary. Why ruin something centuries old when there was nothing wrong with it in the first place?
Contemporary does not mean better. It never has, and never will. The haiku remains as unchanged as my mind.


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## Martin (Dec 22, 2011)

A haiku is more than just a structure and your piece is lacking a lot from a traditional point of view. Here's some quick pointers about the more traditional haiku aside the structure.

- Title-less
- A theme related to nature and preferably a season
- Evocative of the senses
- Two distinct images connected by a kireji
- Sharing an enlightened moment experienced by the author
- Avoid direct metaphors

These above aspects are somewhat my take on haikus and are indeed difficult to work with. If we are to fit them into a 5-7-5 structure it obviously becomes a lot more difficult and often the attempts will be clumsy. Take your lines for example, they are not natural, they are forced to fit the structure. I think as well it's nice if we can adhere to the 5-7-5, but let it be a secondary thing. First get the content right, then see if it can be formulated in a natural way related to the structure you want. If it can't, I would definitely prefer the natural read rather than a forced read. Quite obviously right?

Generally I like to say that a haiku is not something we craft, it is something that comes to us as a way of experiencing the world. Like you maybe did with that fly in your tea. Traditionally haiku is related to the Buddhist Zen direction, and as such they work a lot with the inter-connectedness of our world. This is often the enlightenment shown in traditional haikus, how separate events or things actually are connected.

I recommend actually reading zen philosophy along with more traditional haikus, if you mean that you want to stay true to the old ways. That will make the genre a lot more enjoyable for you and it will get easier to write as well. Mind you though, haiku traditionally seen in Japanese was a master's art and not something many could pull off. So it's wise to accept the fact that one has to try again and again before it goes somewhere. It's a very difficult form, traditionally seen.

I hope that helped and cleared up some things for you. Merry Christmas.


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## S.M. grimbldoo (Dec 22, 2011)

What you are saying is true Martin, but remember that this is in Japanese Influence, if it was anywhere else your critique would be fine, but in here it's unnecessary.



Punnikin said:


> Yet the author specifically chose this syllabic structure because he enjoys the restrictions of it. I consider contemproary English haiku to be an affront to the spirit of haiku, and a perversion that is, in and of itself, unnecessary. Why ruin something centuries old when there was nothing wrong with it in the first place?
> Contemporary does not mean better. It never has, and never will. The haiku remains as unchanged as my mind.


 I totally agree.


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## Martin (Dec 23, 2011)

The 5-7-5 discussion is really not that interesting. If we really do want to work with it, because we want to stay true to a traditional form (which btw was in another language with a completely different way of pronouncing syllables), then we should at least get all the other traditional aspects right as well.

Since we are not doing this in Japanese, why not look into how the haiku actually has evolved in English, instead of clinging on to tids and bits of some old foreign tradition? As with this piece, given its content it's much more contemporary than any old Japanese haiku. So instead of fighting a poetic evolution and transition into another language, embrace the change and you'll find many skilled poets have already carved a beautiful road for you. That is my advice to you, nothing more.


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## Chesters Daughter (Dec 23, 2011)

*MOD NOTE: *Punnikin created this thread for the sole purpose of presenting a piece for crit, not for a debate on what is and isn't haiku, modern or old school. I respectfully request that you keep comments focused on the piece itself. Your discussion is an interesting one, but it doesn't belong here. That said, should it be your desire to continue this discussion, it would be greatly appreciated if you create a thread in the Poetic Discussion sub-forum. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.

Lisa


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## S.M. grimbldoo (Dec 23, 2011)

Thanks Chester's Daughter.

Punnikin, I see nothing wrong with this poem. It perfectly describes someone having tea by themselves and enjoying it.


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## Punnikin (Dec 24, 2011)

I was not offended by the discussion, and differing points of view are welcome. I offered my view on the matter but I realize I came across as being terse, which was unintentional. Instead of a protracted reply in which I cover a bunch of fine points, I'll simply reply in the spirit of the thread itself.

Traditions are good
Some things should remain unchanged
Poetry and tea


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## Wevin (Feb 25, 2012)

I really like this poem. It is simply talking about someone having tea and that is relaxing to me.


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## huskylover103 (Jun 30, 2012)

I love the poem, and whoever wants to think whatever about haiku, let them. If they want to write in the tradional form, LET them. If they dont, LET them. Nothing to argue about. Don't try to change anyone's mind. If everyone were the smae, this world would be a boring place to behold.

But, for kicks and grins, I prefer the challenge of the 5-7-5 structure myself. I have always been taught in school (not online) that haiku is 5-7-5 and to be simple yet deep. When you strip away the challenge of conforming to the 5-7-5, all you have left is a sentence or two of meaningful words. This is only my opinion. I would never force someone else to believe this.


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## S.M. grimbldoo (Jul 4, 2012)

huskylover103 said:


> But, for kicks and grins, I prefer the challenge of the 5-7-5 structure myself. I have always been taught in school (not online) that haiku is 5-7-5 and to be simple yet deep. When you strip away the challenge of conforming to the 5-7-5, all you have left is a sentence or two of meaningful words. This is only my opinion. I would never force someone else to believe this.


I agree many good things can come from limits, just look at what can be created with only three colors; Cyan, Magenta, and Yellow. You cannot get diamonds without a lot of pressure.


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## candid petunia (Jul 5, 2012)

*MOD NOTE:* A reminder once again to keep the discussion on-topic and focus on the piece posted here. As Lisa has already said, if you would still like to continue discussing the structure of haiku, you may do so in the Poetry Discussion sub-forum.


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## aj47 (Jul 23, 2012)

I really enjoyed reading this.


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## Arcopitcairn (Jul 30, 2012)

"Traditions are good
Some things should remain unchanged
Poetry and tea"

I like the topic starter poem, and I very much like this one too.


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## rokerman (Nov 10, 2012)

5-7-5 can be interesting
I like this haiku even though it does not follow the traditional rules


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## S.M. grimbldoo (Nov 10, 2012)

rokerman said:


> 5-7-5 can be interesting
> I like this haiku even though it does not follow the traditional rules


This is a traditional Haiku; 5-7-5

Del-i-cate tea-cup
Su-gar, cream in pe-koe tea
And, of course, a fly


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## rokerman (Nov 10, 2012)

S.M. grimbldoo said:


> This is a traditional Haiku; 5-7-5
> 
> Del-i-cate tea-cup
> Su-gar, cream in pe-koe tea
> And, of course, a fly



Traditional Haikus refer to to a season, with a kire and a kigo.
Clearly this has none of these


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## S.M. grimbldoo (Nov 10, 2012)

rokerman said:


> Traditional Haikus refer to to a season, with a kire and a kigo.
> Clearly this has none of these


Oh, I personally have not seen to many of those. Most of the haikus that I have seen around don't really follow the traditional format, even the ones in school books. 
I need to read poetry more often and diversely.


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## rokerman (Nov 11, 2012)

When I am allowed to post my own work, I will submit a traditional Haiku


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## Dylan_9711 (Mar 28, 2013)

Ha. Made me laugh. How many times I have found a nat in my tea is rediculous.


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## sore (Mar 28, 2013)

awh this is cute c: i like it.


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