# How do I foreshadow without being predictable about it?



## ironpony (Mar 25, 2021)

I wrote a screenplay, and my story is about a police officer who starts off innocent and then halfway through he becomes corrupted, and then much more corrupted by the end.  So it's turning from good to bad type story.

But a couple of readers told me that they felt I should have foreshadowed this plot turn coming rather than go for a total surprise.  I was aiming for a surprise, because typically I don't like foreshadowing things in writing, because you see it coming if you do.

Since I wrote a script, I use movies as examples, but one comparison I can think of is The Dark Knight, where

SPOILER


In the first act the Harvey Dent character says "You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain".  And because he said that, he totally made it predictable that he would be the villain, even if you are not familiar with the comic book, the foreshadowing made it predictable.

So normally I do not like foreshadowing for that purpose, but am I wrong and foreshadowing or seeing it the wrong way?  Thank you for any advice on it!  I really appreciate it!


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 25, 2021)

You just got to be subtle and bury it in the narrative. In the intro to Apparition, Arthur is asked who's blood is on his cheek and shirt. He tells the officer it's his wife's. That makes him look like a potential murderer. But then, in a joking (getting to know the characters) scene, the last thing his wife, Sarah says is 'You better hide any sharp objects before I come down there." That's buried and will likely not get noticed because of what preceded it. It was a joke ... or was it foreshadowing?

I don't think you should treat foreshadowing as something for the reader. I think you should add it in for your own pleasure. Rather like eastereggs. That should help makes sure the foreshadowing is subtle and therefore more rewarding if an intelligent reader spots it.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 25, 2021)

My experience tells me most readers don't do subtle, don't know about screen plays, when I have tried to foreshadow things subtly they have completely missed it. I would go for hit htem over the head with it, they probably still won't notice until later


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## ehbowen (Mar 25, 2021)

Olly Buckle said:


> My experience tells me most readers don't do subtle, don't know about screen plays, when I have tried to foreshadow things subtly they have completely missed it. I would go for hit htem over the head with it, they probably still won't notice until later



This. For my _Guardian Angel_ novel I had the narrator character, herself an angel, mention about four times as to how a holy angel might be captured, how horrible it was, what normally kept it from happening, etc. But when the professional editor and published author I engaged to critique the manuscript got to Act III, where the angel MC is captured...she said the plot twist floored her. She wasn't expecting it at all.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 25, 2021)

ehbowen said:


> This. For my _Guardian Angel_ novel I had the narrator character, herself an angel, mention about four times as to how a holy angel might be captured, how horrible it was, what normally kept it from happening, etc. But when the professional editor and published author I engaged to critique the manuscript got to Act III, where the angel MC is captured...she said the plot twist floored her. She wasn't expecting it at all.



I think it's more an 'expectation' thing. Once you're an established author (and I'm talking Hemmingway, Bradbury, Orwell here), they become 'known' for certain aspects. Once those things are known then people begin to look for those things. For someone else, like myself, people will simply look at the work as a whole and not consider what things I may put into my writing. To them, mirroring, echoing, time bombs, foreshadowing, will likely just appear as if I'm 'filling that word count' in order to get published. They go unscrutinised (if there's such a word ...).


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## ironpony (Mar 25, 2021)

Well if I am told I should foreshadow and that it's important, how do I do so without breaking the fourth wall?  In screenwriting, you are only allowed to write what the audience will see or hear, so how do you write a foreshadowing since it's not typically something an audience can see or hear, if that makes sense?


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## Selorian (Mar 25, 2021)

> *The Shawshank Redemption*
> 
> Everything that the warden does (except for the abundance of crimes he commits) in The Shawshank Redemption is based on his religion. When the warden picks up Andy’s bible, Andy clearly tenses up for a moment.
> 
> ...



That was just one example I found when I Googled examples of foreshadowing in movies. The audience can both see and hear it.

As another example, in *Back to the Future II*, there is a scene where a scene from *A Fistful of Dollars* is playing on a tv. In *Back to the Future III*, Marty not only chooses to use Clint Eastwood as a name, but also uses the exact tactic depicted in that scene to thwart a bad guy.

Just do a search and look at the instances of foreshadowing and see how it was handled. Some may seem obvious now, and may have then for those looking for it, but for the most part they are only breadcrumbs we realize after the payoff at the end.

Hope this helps and best of luck to you.


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## ironpony (Mar 25, 2021)

Selorian said:


> That was just one example I found when I Googled examples of foreshadowing in movies. The audience can both see and hear it.
> 
> As another example, in *Back to the Future II*, there is a scene where a scene from *A Fistful of Dollars* is playing on a tv. In *Back to the Future III*, Marty not only chooses to use Clint Eastwood as a name, but also uses the exact tactic depicted in that scene to thwart a bad guy.
> 
> ...


.

Thanks.  I thought the Shawshank Redemption one still counts as a foreshadowing you can hear though because someone says it in dialogue.  But that's what makes foreshadowing cheap or gimmicky though to me because you are giving away what is going to happen.  Unless that's not bad?


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## Selorian (Mar 25, 2021)

ironpony said:


> .
> 
> Thanks.  I thought the Shawshank Redemption one still counts as a foreshadowing you can hear though because someone says it in dialogue.  But that's what makes foreshadowing cheap or gimmicky though to me because you are giving away what is going to happen.  Unless that's not bad?



It does count as both seeing and hearing.

An audience enjoys being able to connect the dots of a good story. It also shows that the author knew all along where the story was going and didn't just make things up as needed. Foreshadowing should be viewed, in hindsight, as clues that the ending was always going to happen, from the very beginning.

That said, they can also be used to purposely draw the attention elsewhere when needed. Take this for example.

There is a neighborhood party. During a discussion about jail conditions being to lax, one neighbor says they know firsthand they're not.  That then somehow leads to a discussion of how expensive medicine is for the elderly, so much so that a sweet elderly woman says she can barely afford her husbands pills.

Then, a week or so later, a string of break-ins occur.

We're likely to jump to thinking that neighbor with the criminal record is to blame, but we eventually discover it is the elderly woman bribing her grandson into committing them so she can pay for her husband's medicine.

This isn't a perfect example, but hopefully it's enough to get the concept across.


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## Ajoy (Mar 25, 2021)

I think the kind of foreshadowing you need to make this work would be a series of small moments throughout your story, building up to the reveal of your character's change. A few words in the narrative or a questionable statement or thought by the MC here and there should be enough to give the move you want to make with your character a foundation so it doesn't feel like it's coming out of nowhere. I think the trick will be choosing wording that does signal the potential for your character's change, but also isn't enough to guarantee it...so the reader more wonders if the change will happen rather than expects it.


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## ironpony (Mar 25, 2021)

Oh okay.  But if I want a character to turn from morally good to bad, why can't I just have a character turned that from a single event?  Why do I have to drop hints of bad from here to there, rather than have he character seem all good, then tragic event happens, turning them bad?  Why do I have to drop hints of bad throughout, if that makes sense?


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## Ajoy (Mar 25, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay.  But if I want a character to turn from morally good to bad, why can't I just have a character turned that from a single event?  Why do I have to drop hints of bad from here to there, rather than have he character seem all good, then tragic event happens, turning them bad?  Why do I have to drop hints of bad throughout, if that makes sense?



In one situation, you are giving glimpses into the moments, thoughts, etc. that show the character's vulnerability to going bad so that when the tragic event happens your character's change feels more plausible. If you wanted to have just a single tragic event turn your character bad without any foreshadowing, I guess that could happen, but I think it would be harder to pull off as believable. I'm not sure what event could cause such a 180 in a character that for all the reader knows is a shining bastion of goodness, but maybe?


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## ironpony (Mar 26, 2021)

I thought it would be more realistic though, because I thought in real life, people are switched that way.  Like if a person was happily married with a loving spouse and kids for example, they probably do not have thoughts of revenge killings naturally.  But if their spouse and kids were to be murdered, they would probably then have those desires, never having those thoughts before the event.  So I thought that was more realistic.  If that makes sense, or no?


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## ehbowen (Mar 26, 2021)

ironpony said:


> I thought it would be more realistic though, because I thought in real life, people are switched that way.  Like if a person was happily married with a loving spouse and kids for example, they probably do not have thoughts of revenge killings naturally.  But if their spouse and kids were to be murdered, they would probably then have those desires, never having those thoughts before the event.  So I thought that was more realistic.  If that makes sense, or no?



If I were writing that and wanted to foreshadow, I'd include a scene where the character is watching or reading news coverage of a traumatic assault or killing of an unrelated family. "What would you do if you were ever in a situation like that?" "Dunno."


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## Ajoy (Mar 26, 2021)

ironpony said:


> I thought it would be more realistic though, because I thought in real life, people are switched that way.  Like if a person was happily married with a loving spouse and kids for example, they probably do not have thoughts of revenge killings naturally.  But if their spouse and kids were to be murdered, they would probably then have those desires, never having those thoughts before the event.  So I thought that was more realistic.  If that makes sense, or no?



I think your idea of someone losing their family and then becoming a revenge killer could work, and there is no reason your MC would have to think or do anything bad prior to the killing of their family. But, what makes your MC prone to becoming a revenge killer as opposed to any other choice (getting depressed and self imploding, becoming a victim advocate, etc.)? Whatever traits make your character eventually choose a life of revenge killing are the traits that you could be using to foreshadow his eventual change.


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## bdcharles (Mar 26, 2021)

ironpony said:


> I wrote a screenplay, and my story is about a police officer who starts off innocent and then halfway through he becomes corrupted, and then much more corrupted by the end.  So it's turning from good to bad type story.
> 
> But a couple of readers told me that they felt I should have foreshadowed this plot turn coming rather than go for a total surprise.  I was aiming for a surprise, because typically I don't like foreshadowing things in writing, because you see it coming if you do.
> 
> ...



Pick something from the future moment you want foreshadowed, and reference it in earlier text as, ostensibly, a throwaway remark/piece of scenery/etc.


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## EmmaSohan (Mar 26, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Well if I am told I should foreshadow and that it's important, how do I do so without breaking the fourth wall?  In screenwriting, you are only allowed to write what the audience will see or hear, so how do you write a foreshadowing since it's not typically something an audience can see or hear, if that makes sense?



There's a "trick". If you say "Janey was going to have a horrible day," you break the fourth wall. If the narration is Janey thinking "Today is going to be perfect.", then a reader in the know will realize it is not going to be perfect.

Or: "Johnny was walking down the street in a safe neighborhood, with nothing to worry about." Something probably happens to Johnny.

Or: "Everyone agreed that he was the cop least likely to go bad." Put that way, he probably goes bad.

I doubt that always is possible, and you have to adapt to your story.


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## ironpony (Mar 26, 2021)

Oh okay, it's just I am writing a screenplay, sorry I didn't specify before.  So I am only allowed to write what the audience would see or hear and cannot write things, like if a character is the least likely to turn bad or not, of course.



Ajoy said:


> I think your idea of someone losing their family and then becoming a revenge killer could work, and there is no reason your MC would have to think or do anything bad prior to the killing of their family. But, what makes your MC prone to becoming a revenge killer as opposed to any other choice (getting depressed and self imploding, becoming a victim advocate, etc.)? Whatever traits make your character eventually choose a life of revenge killing are the traits that you could be using to foreshadow his eventual change.



Well in order for someone to become a revenge killer, do they have to have traits in them beforehand, that make them turn that way, or could the crime that happens to them be the trait that turns the character on the own?  Could a crime happening to someone, be powerful enough on it's own, to turn someone bad, without any prior traits beforehand?

I guess for my story, I want the main character to go from mr. morally clean and perfect, to becoming corrupt, about halfway through.  But if I give him traits that he could be come corrupt beforehand, that he is not mr. clean so much, if he has such traits already, if that makes sense?  Or maybe I am looking at it the wrong way?


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## Ajoy (Mar 26, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, it's just I am writing a screenplay, sorry I didn't specify before.  So I am only allowed to write what the audience would see or hear and cannot write things, like if a character is the least likely to turn bad or not, of course. *That's actually very interesting (I have no idea about screenplays)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think yes, one event could completely alter your character. My wonder would be, what about that character made him make the choice to become corrupt rather than another path like single mindedly using the legal system to seek justice or simply falling apart/getting so depressed that he self destructs. What causes your character to make the choice he does? What influences, memories, habits, etc. make that choice make sense?  

I actually have a main character who goes through this kind of change. One particular set of events causes her to do some bad things (in grief), and then she sort of digs in and doubles down on the evil acts, justifying whatever she does to herself because of her beliefs/history/influences. My story first represents her cruel side. Then it shows her at varying points when she was still good, and finally, in the end, the story of what turned her becomes clear. Right now, I'm just working on making the connection between the good version and the corrupted version of her clear...sort of creating a whole representation of her arc through moments in her life.


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## ironpony (Mar 26, 2021)

Oh okay, thanks, your example of your work is an interesting one.  One thing I was told a couple of times before is that since my protagonist is mr. clean and does not become flawed until he wants revenge later, is that him being mr. clean for the first half, makes for an interesting character for the first half because he has no moral flaws.  I can kind of see the point there, but if I want a character to go from mr. clean to being corrupt, do I then risk the character not being interested for the first half therefore as a result?


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## Ajoy (Mar 26, 2021)

ironpony said:


> I can kind of see the point there, but if I want a character to go from mr. clean to being corrupt, do I then risk the character not being interested for the first half therefore as a result?



I think you should write it how you are imagining. You can develop your early or later character when you see how it all comes together.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 26, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, thanks, your example of your work is an interesting one.  One thing I was told a couple of times before is that since my protagonist is mr. clean and does not become flawed until he wants revenge later, is that him being mr. clean for the first half, makes for an interesting character for the first half because he has no moral flaws.  I can kind of see the point there, but if* I want a character to go from mr. clean to being corrupt*, do I then risk the character not being interested for the first half therefore as a result?



The problem I see here is thinking in terms of moving from one cliche to another. If he's going to be corrupted, he wouldn't be Mr clean and if been Mr clean, he wouldn't be completely corrupt. Character traits + Circumstance = realistic transition. Forget black and white and dabble in the grey areas.

That should make foreshadowing a stroll in the park.


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## ironpony (Mar 26, 2021)

Oh okay it's just that if I have grey areas, then I feel that the character transformation doesn't seem as large then.  To go from all white to black seems like a much larger character transformation then to go from white-grey to grey-black, unless I am looking at it wrong?


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 27, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay it's just that if I have grey areas, then I feel that the character transformation doesn't seem as large then.  To go from all white to black seems like a much larger character transformation then to go from white-grey to grey-black, unless I am looking at it wrong?



He'll have particular traits and so you make some of those traits malleable. In the first iteration of his character, you may choose to make him single-minded and focused. A perfectly good trait to have. But given circumstance, that could so easily change to bloody-mindedness. Do you see? So to foreshadow, you'd take the single-mindedness and show us something he does with it or something that represents that. Then when he becomes bloody-minded, the reader will think 'ah, we always knew he had the capacity to become that'.


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## ironpony (Mar 27, 2021)

Oh okay, but if I show the blood-mindedness beforehand, then he will not be seen as mr. righteous for the first half, and so the character change will not feel so big then, if he had dark traits all along?  It would make the change less grand, and more predictable, won't it?


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 27, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, but if I show the blood-mindedness beforehand, then he will not be seen as mr. righteous for the first half, and so the character change will not feel so big then, if he had dark traits all along?  It would make the change less grand, and more predictable, won't it?



He wouldn't be though would he. As I said, he would be single-minded and focused. The transition between that and bloody-mindedness would be a matter of patience. Push his patience to the limit during the story ... and there you have it. Playing in the grey areas.

edit: I think you're thinking too much in terms of Jesus Christ to The Devil Himself. People aren't like that.


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## ironpony (Mar 27, 2021)

Okay thanks, I can try to think of it like that.   But can you think of an example of how I would foreshadow the grey area exactly, without it being forced, plot wise, if that makes sense?


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 27, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks, I can try to think of it like that.   But can you think of an example of how I would foreshadow the grey area exactly, without it being forced, plot wise, if that makes sense?



Obviously you're going to be using different traits for you own protag. Let me give you another example:

A girl is attracted to a man because he has a fantastic body. He has a fantastic body because he works out every day.
They get together and form a relationship. She's happy she has a bodybuilder at her side.
Eventually they marry and buy a house. Now the relationship is serious.
On the mantelpiece, her husband places the myriad trophies he's won for bodybuilding.
Over time, he begins getting phone calls whilst at the gym asking if he'll be home soon.
He tells her every time he must finish his routine in order to stay in competition condition.
She begins to resent the time he spends at the gym and forgets the reason she liked him in the first place.
The phone calls become more frequent and their relationship suffers.
One day he finds his trophies broken and burned in the fireplace.
The relationship continues, her getting more resentful, him getting more frustrated.

Now, you have a choice. Which one is going to die!? 

If you choose her, you'd focus more on the gym and the foreshadowing would be the trophies on the mantelpiece.
If you choose him, you'd focus on the phone calls and the foreshadowing would be the broken and burned trophies in the fireplace.


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## ironpony (Mar 27, 2021)

Oh okay, I just thougtht that is different because in mine something dark happens to the protagonist halfway through, where as in that example, there is no external big dark event that happens to change the protagonist's mind, unless I missed it?


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## ehbowen (Mar 27, 2021)

One thing which might help out in your situation, and ultimately make your character a bit more sympathetic, is to show him in some situation prior to his change where he was looking to the legal system for redress, say as an investigating officer in a major case which should have been high-profile and which cried out for justice...only to see it swept under the rug due to official corruption. Clear message: "I CAN'T trust the justice system for real justice."


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## ironpony (Mar 27, 2021)

Oh well this doesn't happen at all the way I wrote it, since the plot just deals with the current case at hand.  I could write in a subplot that addresses that, but is it worth creating a whole suplot, just to foreshadow something?


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## Taylor (Mar 27, 2021)

I have no issue with a surprise at the end, however, a few subtle hints can be an indication that a change may happen, but the reader doesn’t know what the change will be. So it’s still a surprise. Try focusing on what’s happening around him, and how that might change his motivation.  Is he under any pressure, for example, a gambling habit or he’s subject to extortion?    


Typically when people compromise their ethics (or become corrupt), it starts with a lapse of judgement due to environmental pressures.   They then accelerate the corrupt behaviour as they try to cover up one lie with another.


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## Selorian (Mar 27, 2021)

A scene where a news report or newspaper headline is heard or seen about a 'Pastor Convicted' or something similar could work.


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## ironpony (Mar 27, 2021)

Oh okay, what does a pastor have to do with though?  Also, if I show him with a gambling habit or something like that, then he is not mr. clean though, if he is going to turn corrupt.  Or if I make him suseptible to extortion, I do not know how he could be, because if he mr. clean, then he no one can have anything on him to be extorted with, but maybe?


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## Taylor (Mar 27, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, what does a pastor have to do with though?  Also, if I show him with a gambling habit or something like that, then he is not mr. clean though, if he is going to turn corrupt.  Or if I make him suseptible to extortion, I do not know how he could be, because if he mr. clean, then he no one can have anything on him to be extorted with, but maybe?



You have to find something to make this change in character believable.  He has to be susceptible to something.  Think about all that may be happening around him.


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## ironpony (Mar 27, 2021)

Oh okay I thought that the singular crime that happens to him would be enough to change him.  I didn't know he ne heeded things to happen around before the singular crime, unless he does?


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## Selorian (Mar 27, 2021)

Selorian said:


> A scene where a news report or newspaper headline is heard or seen about a 'Pastor Convicted' or something similar could work.





ironpony said:


> Oh okay, what does a pastor have to do with though?  Also, if I show him with a gambling habit or something like that, then he is not mr. clean though, if he is going to turn corrupt.  Or if I make him suseptible to extortion, I do not know how he could be, because if he mr. clean, then he no one can have anything on him to be extorted with, but maybe?



This would be a way to subliminally implant the idea that the morally upright can fall into the audience, without actually making any changes to your character.

The concept, at least to me, of a perfectly moral person seems unrealistic. Everyone has a flaw, no matter how well they hide it or fight against it. But if you are set on this path, and need a way to foreshadow, something like this may be the answer.


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## ironpony (Mar 28, 2021)

Oh okay, but if it's impossible for a a person to be perfectly mora, than perhaps my idea of a protagonist that goes from mr. clean to corrupted, is not a realistic idea maybe, if there is no such thing as mr. perfectly clean?


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## Backstroke_Italics (Mar 28, 2021)

Something I've learned from writing hints and clues into my mysteries is that I always need to be at least 100% more obvious about it than I think. If I think I wrote something subtle, it was actually impenetrable. If I think I wrote something obvious, maybe a third of my readers will pick up on it. So my advice would be to make the foreshadowing as obvious as you can. It will still feel subtle to your readers.


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## ironpony (Mar 28, 2021)

Oh okay, I can try and think of it that way, thanks.  Well if I want to make a morally clean person turn corrupt, and wanting revenge, what character traits can I give them before the corruption, then?  Gambling was mentioned before, but I gambling doesn't have anything to do with wanting to avenge a crime later, does it?  Or does it not matter if the flaw is very different as long as it's a flaw of corruption?


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## Theglasshouse (Mar 29, 2021)

Don't be melodramatic and do hide from the reader important information as to withhold. The character should be the center of the story. For example let's say a murderous serial killer is on the loose. You hide this information from the reader. What is more you can make it a backstory of the character you chose that isn't predictable (moving into the present time of the story). Maybe the character has a gun from the murderous serial killer. He hides it from the police. A possible motive could be to downplay the serial killer story. The serial killer information enters late into the story. Maybe the character is an advocate for not using guns, and the gun was his own that he used. To make it unpredictable you don't put the killer killing people as the plot (as if banal because that's how a newspaper headline could read). The character must take over. So you create a character that puts the story of the serial killer underneath the surface of the story. Maybe a woman fell for the serial killer. But that woman could be a sister of the character. He keeps it a secret since he doesn't want to break her heart, and then of course he wants to find the serial killer plot event, and after doing it move away from town. By moving away from the serial killer and using a point of view character that is appropriate you avoid the cliché. You didn't use the killer in a scene because the character killing people is too cliché for a story on a serial killer. I read this advice from robin hemley's book. His book is basing stories on real life. I think the advice is applicable to any fictional work. Because predictable means cliché and it means the reader will be bored. I also read this advice today when doing nothing. Don't reveal motivation, feelings, or anything early on of the character you are using as the pov character because the story will be spoiled. Let the gun be symbolic. Maybe someone else really owns it and was against using it for example. Maybe a retired police officer in the force. The serial killer shapes the character but not by using violence. Or by killing people like a serial killer would. That would be considered cliché in my example. Maybe the truth is known by the end of the story. Melodrama as that found in a newspaper story as an example a serial killer is cliché by default. It's been done millions of times. You need to bring something new to the table when writing a story. So by handling melodrama be extra careful of how the reader will predict things will turn out. Plot is event. Character is what you are writing by avoiding a plot that seems formulaic and predictable. By choosing a pov character you can avoid clichés but by not choosing the most obvious ones such as a victim of the serial killer. Not to mention you story changes completely. So choose a character that makes this not a story that becomes more predictable. As for your story I don't know, but maybe this advice will help you think for yourself how to do it. This enhances characterization. The inner battle that happens in the character's mind is what happens. The event is relegated or made less important.


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## ironpony (Mar 29, 2021)

Oh okay, but I think that your serial killer example is different than mine because you are talking about hiding a twist, like if someone is a killer but the audience doesn't notice, where as I am talking about keeping a character arc from becoming predictable, which is different than a twist, unless they are similar in terms of foreshadowing?


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## Theglasshouse (Mar 29, 2021)

The key points: You avoid excessively depending on the plot by choosing a character that doesn't give away the plot and rely on other ways to make your story less cliché. You change the pov character and the character isn't as obvious. You avoid the tropes of your genre, and rely on characterization. By that you take a sideways approach by taking away the tragic in your idea and instead and having the character respond in a unique way. That is a serial killer story will have a person worried about who he will kill next, and fear for their own life. Here the killings are left in the foreground/background. The character is the focus. How will character surprise us and not the plot and make the story unpredictable? You don't focus on melodrama and create character gestures and speech. Maybe a character is a stereotype and our job as writers is to write without a stereotype. Life can be melodramatic. *You deal with the aftermath and not the trauma. This he calls indirection to avoid predictability. *

I put it up incase it interested you. Personally I think I gave you different examples of cliched handling of serial killer stories in newspapers and how other writers handle it differently. My argument is that a cliched situation relies on plot to *surprise*. It's a *so what* story according to Robin Hemley. Take in mind this is from a literary theory book from a mfa program. I find it accessible and I understood it. Anyways I think some of what I said holds true for you. You explore a plot incident of a serial killer killing and this is called according to him *indirection.* I gave you the example of this strategy. This person is the head of the iowa nonfiction department. It's a useful way to develop stories using nonfiction. That is why in the example he refers to newspapers. The character's behavior can become unpredictable when you hide the motivation and feelings. He says it is easier to write stories about someone else because you have distance from the material. You are then willing to twist the story anecdote from a newspaper and then make it into a story. *When we know a characters behavior intrigues us in a newspaper story for example it is a good material for a story because the writer wants to know why as does the reader.*

Take the trauma out and have it resemble very little about the event. *He is against melodrama which is associated with trauma*. *This leads to a cliched and predictable plot. This is the point I am trying to make in your thread. Your thread title and question: how do I foreshadow without being predictable about it?

A second way is to cut characters and cut unnecessary details from the original story (in Robin Hemley's book he constantly refers to newspapers and to family stories of people other than ourselves).*

*The focus is less on the situation and being intrigued by the character's motivations. Let's say for example in the newspaper there is a news story about a woman who hides a secret. She hides the fact she won the lottery and left a lottery ticket in her husband's Christmas present. You as a writer create a unique motivation.*

One way to begin the story is to use the dramatic imagination and to make the husband worry why his wife is hiding. But now you know the ending. The character motivation intrigues us.

*How to foreshadow I don't know. I have heard writers typically plant clues in the story. Like for example in Shakespeare's cesaer an owl appears in the morning. This is foreshadowing that something is not right (cesaer will be killed). This was explained by my teacher who was a literature teacher in high school. Or maybe there was a dark and stormy night even though this is a cliché. That highlights something bad is going to happen. Which is the same as the example of the owl.
*
_*I tried and I think I answered part of your question. It's a roundabout answer but is one way of writing the story to be less predictable.*_

You must mix and match your story with events from your own life or that is memories. He argues we can combine anecdotes. It's always easier to write about the other person's anecdote and not what happened to ourselves he argues. It creates more distance. I think the benefit he argues for this is that it increases the imagination.

An example of an action a character takes: let's say for the serial killer story the man in question destroys the tv in the house since he is worried the woman in question will have their heart broken. Let's say she has heart disease. I think action is synonymous with gesture in fiction. You avoid a victim story since the protagonist always takes an action.


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## ironpony (Mar 30, 2021)

Oh okay thank you very much!  That's a lot to process but I am thinking about it .

Well one way I could give the protagonist more flaws is to give him more to do in order to have more flaws.  I was told by a couple of readres, that the protagonist does not have enough to do in the first act, since he is a cop working with a team of cops, instead of working by himself.

I was advised before to composite some of the police characters and the MC all into one character to make it more simple and it also gives the MC more to do as well, rather than a group of cops.

However, I am wondering if this makes it less believable. Can the main character be the cop who arrives when 911 is called on the first crime, to make it more clear who the main character is, but also be assigned to the case as a detective after, and also be assigned to be the press spokesperson, and also after doing detective work and finding one of the witnesses, to be assigned to protection duty of that witness as well?


Or does this seem like too much for all one cop to be assigned to coincidentally, as opposed to others taking on the different tasks of the case? Or maybe readers are use the jack of all trades, one man force cop character, and they prefer it? What do you think out of curiosity?


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## Kent_Jacobs (Mar 30, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thank you very much!  That's a lot to process but I am thinking about it .
> 
> Well one way I could give the protagonist more flaws is to give him more to do in order to have more flaws.  I was told by a couple of readres, that the protagonist does not have enough to do in the first act, since he is a cop working with a team of cops, instead of working by himself.
> 
> ...



You're still thinking in terms of 'flaws'. Give him traits that can swing both ways. I gave you 'focused and strong willed' (positive traits) which can easily become 'stubborn and self indulgent'. All it takes is to push the right buttons to get him there. There are lots of traits like that. Pick one.

There are no 'baddies' and there are no 'goodies', just circumstance.


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## Theglasshouse (Mar 30, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thank you very much!  That's a lot to process but I am thinking about it .
> 
> Well one way I could give the protagonist more flaws is to give him more to do in order to have more flaws.  I was told by a couple of readres, that the protagonist does not have enough to do in the first act, since he is a cop working with a team of cops, instead of working by himself.
> 
> ...


Sure I think that makes sense. My memory is foggy but I think in a movie I saw that the police chief doing that. I am not sure if it was in the o.j. Simpson series which I saw on Netflix and I would research it though since fiction needs to be believable. I am just one person. I would email the police and say you need research since you are writing a movie. They would be flattered probably and would want to help you. Maybe a synopsis of that series could reveal the answer. But anyways I think it could work. But this isn't my area of expertise and maybe the public could believe it. Research it though to find out. The character actions make sense to me even though more context could be needed.


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## apocalypsegal (Apr 6, 2021)

To me, the thing about foreshadowing is that it's something the reader thinks later "Oh! So, that's what that was about!". Not that it was totally out of left field, but that it wasn't immediately obvious the writer was trying to give a hint. The best way to learn the technique is to read fiction where it's used, see how the writer puts hints, subtle things, things that aren't odd but that the reader takes in without realizing it, until the point where all of it makes sense. A good mystery will have foreshadowing that isn't in your face but isn't too easily forgotten, until the crime is solved and the reader sees it all come together.


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## ironpony (Apr 7, 2021)

Oh okay thanks.  But when it comes to not foreshadowing at all, in order to keep the most mystery, will the reader always think that the surprise will come too far out of left field?

Is there ever a story where the reader thinks "wow you manage to surprise me without any foreshadowing at all!" , as oppose to thinking it's too far out of left field?


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## Taylor (Apr 9, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thanks.  But when it comes to not foreshadowing at all, in order to keep the most mystery, will the reader always think that the surprise will come too far out of left field?
> 
> Is there ever a story where the reader thinks "wow you manage to surprise me without any foreshadowing at all!" , as oppose to thinking it's too far out of left field?



WADR - Your exclamation doesn't make any sense.  Forshadowing works againts the surprise not to promote it, They might say something more like "What a surprise...I didn't see it coming...there was no foreshadowing at all."    It sounds like the surprise you are speaking of is a twist at the end.  It think those are fine, but whatever it is, even if you don't foreshadow, it has to make sense and tie into your story.  The reader should be able to look back and say something more like..."That's clever, I never would have thought that, but it all makes sense now."  But you specifically don't want to do too much foreshadowing in that event.  Just make sure you tie it in, so it's believable.  I think that is the real skill.  The reader should be thinking _Brilliant!  _Not..._Unrealistic!
_


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## ironpony (Apr 9, 2021)

Oh well I was told before that foreshadowing enhances the surprise, and not working against it, which I did not understand, unless that is incorrect, and it's the other way around?


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## ehbowen (Apr 10, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh well I was told before that foreshadowing enhances the surprise, and not working against it, which I did not understand, unless that is incorrect, and it's the other way around?



My view of it is that foreshadowing is essential if you're going to do something otherwise unpredictable. You've got to prime the reader/viewer to have the possibility in the back of his head, even if you don't make it obvious (and you shouldn't). If you just spring your surprise on your audience with no prep or buildup, they're likely to call it a _deus ex machina_...or, in modern English, say, "Now that's cheating." Either way your story loses traction...and viewers.


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## ironpony (Apr 10, 2021)

ehbowen said:


> My view of it is that foreshadowing is essential if you're going to do something otherwise unpredictable. You've got to prime the reader/viewer to have the possibility in the back of his head, even if you don't make it obvious (and you shouldn't). If you just spring your surprise on your audience with no prep or buildup, they're likely to call it a _deus ex machina_...or, in modern English, say, "Now that's cheating." Either way your story loses traction...and viewers.



Oh okay, I thought that a deus ex machina is when a huge convenience happens for the main character.  But if the surprise would be a huge inconvenience for the main character, I didn't think it would count as a deus ex machina.  I thought that convenience determined whether or not something counted as a deus ex machina, and if it was foreshadowed or not.

But do you ever read a book or watch a movie where you see the big surprise or twist coming in advance, and you think to yourself, that if they just didn't foreshadow it, than you wouldn't have seen it coming, and it would have been more of a surprise as a result?


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## ehbowen (Apr 10, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, I thought that a deus ex machina is when a huge convenience happens for the main character.  But if the surprise would be a huge inconvenience for the main character, I didn't think it would count as a deus ex machina.  I thought that convenience determined whether or not something counted as a deus ex machina, and if it was foreshadowed or not.
> 
> But do you ever read a book or watch a movie where you see the big surprise or twist coming in advance, and you think to yourself, that if they just didn't foreshadow it, than you wouldn't have seen it coming, and it would have been more of a surprise as a result?



I'm not saying that there aren't different styles, and I'm not saying that there aren't surprises in life and that there shouldn't be any in fiction. But I believe that the best stories use appropriate foreshadowing. Hey, even God foreshadows: "Surely the Lord God does nothing, Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets (Amos 3:7 NKJV)."


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## Taylor (Apr 10, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh well I was told before that foreshadowing enhances the surprise, and not working against it, which I did not understand, unless that is incorrect, and it's the other way around?



Yes, you're right, foreshadowing may 'enhance' the surprise, but it doesn't contribute to causing a surprise. I may be hints to give away a surprise if you are not subtle enough. Do you not see why your sentence doesn't make sense?

"wow you manage to surprise me without any foreshadowing at all!"


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## ironpony (Apr 10, 2021)

Oh okay, no, sorry, I do not see how it doesn't make sense.  I thought the less you foreshadow, the bigger the suprise will be normally.


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## Taylor (Apr 10, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, no, sorry, I do not see how it doesn't make sense.  I thought the less you foreshadow, the bigger the suprise will be normally.



Exactly, but your sentence portrays the opposite.  And I think you are just toying with me now, because you're a pretty good writer and I think you know what I am getting at.  

Your sentence suggest that the person is impressed that you were able to suprise them without any foreshadowing:

Do you mean:  "Wow you manage to surprise me without any foreshadowing at all!"  or,

"Wow, you surprised me, without any foreshadowing at all!"  or,

"Wow, even though you had some foreshadowing, you still managed to surprise me!"

But you are probably laughing your head off right now...because you know exactly what I am talking about.


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## ironpony (Apr 10, 2021)

Oh well this is what I meant:  "Wow you manage to surprise me without any foreshadowing at all!"  But did I not make sense by saying that?


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## Kent_Jacobs (Apr 10, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, no, sorry, I do not see how it doesn't make sense.  I thought the less you foreshadow, the bigger the suprise will be normally.



I don't understand why you find the concept of foreshadowing so complicated. In Apparition, in the very first scene, I have Arthur with blood on his cheek and blood on his sleeve. When asked whose blood it is, he says his wife's. Yes, that's foreshadowing but it's ambiguous foreshadowing. How that blood got there and under what circumstances is the question I'm deliberately posing there. When the reader finally finds out, chances are they'll think they're smart, even though at this point I still haven't entirely decided which side I'm going to fall.

This scene is followed by a domestic scene in which Sarah (his wife) and Arthur play a little game of who can get one over on the other. In this scene there is some foreshadowing too. This game they play works out well usually, but as I show at the end of the scene, it can go badly wrong too, adding to the ambiguity of the first scene, and that's because it can also go both ways. 

Blood on his sleeve + game of sarcasm that can sometimes go wrong = foreshadowing of events to come but not yet clear which way things will go. Now throw in the fact he's a writer and the Apparition (Heather) has occupied his mind rather like a character occupies a writer's mind when they're writing stories. Could Sarah become jealous? Could the game they play get even more sour? 

Why is his wife's blood on his cheek and shirt sleeve? The two things are connected. I'm taking something that's a positive about their relationship and flipping it with an event into something that could potentially be detrimental.


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## Taylor (Apr 10, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh well this is what I meant:  "Wow you manage to surprise me without any foreshadowing at all!"  But did I not make sense by saying that?



Can you rephrase that using different words so I can figure out what you are trying to say?


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## ironpony (Apr 10, 2021)

Oh okay, it's not that I don't find foreshadowing complicated I don't think, I just don't understand why it's necessary.  I thought a surprise would be a bigger surprise without it, but I do not understand how surprises are forced without it.  I thought the point of a surprise was to surprise as much as possible, and still do not understand how it's forced without foreshadowing.  In real life for example, surprises can happen without it being foreshadowed to anyone, so I didn't think it was unrealistic.  I am just trying to understand how surprises are forced without it.


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## ironpony (Apr 10, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Can you rephrase that using different words so I can figure out what you are trying to say?



I apologize for any confusion.  What I meant to say was is that I thought the reader would be more surprised by a surprise if there wasn't any foreshadowing to the surprise, rather than with.  For example, in the movie Cell 211 (2009), there is a surprise halfway through the movie which I will give away, as an example, if that's okay:


SPOILER FROM MOVIE:

Halfway through the movie the protagonist's wife and kid are murdered, and he finds out who at the same time he finds out about the murder.  About two minutes after he finds this out, he kills the murderer out of revenge, since the murderer was in the same roon as him, when he found out, and so it didn't take long to find him.

This happens at about the halfway point into the movie and the writers did not foreshadow this at all.  There were never any hints that he would seek revenge on anyone who would kill his wife and kid in the first half.  And because of that, it was much more of a surprise and totally unexpected in a good way I thought.  But is this an example of how a surprise is more effective without foreshadowing?


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## Kent_Jacobs (Apr 10, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, it's not that I don't find foreshadowing complicated I don't think, I just don't understand why it's necessary.  I thought a surprise would be a bigger surprise without it, but I do not understand how surprises are forced without it.  I thought the point of a surprise was to surprise as much as possible, and still do not understand how it's forced without foreshadowing.  In real life for example, surprises can happen without it being foreshadowed to anyone, so I didn't think it was unrealistic.  I am just trying to understand how surprises are forced without it.



Don't foreshadow then ... 

This has become a circular debate. Foreshadowing is done for two main reasons: for the author's fun and for the reader's sense of awareness. Don't foreshadow and it's just a surprise. That's it. It's not complicated.


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## ironpony (Apr 10, 2021)

Oh well it's just that readers so far, say they felt the surprise wasn't interesting because they didn't see it coming at all.  But I thought that was a good thing, if you do not see a surprise coming at all.  I am just trying to make sense of what they said, since it seems paradoxical.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Apr 10, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh well it's just that readers so far, say they felt the surprise wasn't interesting because they didn't see it coming at all.  But I thought that was a good thing, if you do not see a surprise coming at all.  I am just trying to make sense of what they said, since it seems paradoxical.



Who are 'they'? Tell them to get lost.


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## Taylor (Apr 10, 2021)

ironpony said:


> I apologize for any confusion.  What I meant to say was is that I thought the reader would be more surprised by a surprise if there wasn't any foreshadowing to the surprise, rather than with.  For example, in the movie Cell 211 (2009), there is a surprise halfway through the movie which I will give away, as an example, if that's okay:
> 
> 
> SPOILER FROM MOVIE:
> ...



I agree that a surprise may be more effective without foreshadowing. It's perfectly legitimate to write a surprise with no foreshadowing. Foreshadowing is just one of many techniques a writer can use.

For myself, I like to use foreshadowing, and to respond to your original question, the skill in foreshadowing is to not be predictable. Because, if too obvious, it can detract from the story. The types of things that i like to do are for example:

The protagonist sees her friend stopping to say hello to another patron in a restaurant. She later learns that the person he spoke to is the CEO of a firm. Subsequently, the firm comes under disrepute, and she then learns that her friend used to counsel that firm. It casts suspicion on her friend. Her friend may or may not be involved in the crime, but the reader wants to read on because now they are curious.

It just adds intrigue...not necessary, but I think we who use it believe it adds some spice to the sauce.


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## Taylor (Apr 10, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh well it's just that readers so far, say they felt the surprise wasn't interesting because they didn't see it coming at all.  But I thought that was a good thing, if you do not see a surprise coming at all.  I am just trying to make sense of what they said, since it seems paradoxical.



I do understand what you are saying.  It does seem paradoxical, but I think you can either press on and not worry about those people if you believe your story is good.  Or, if you want to respond maybe don't think about it as a surprise.  It is an event.  Any event in a story needs to have a purpose and make sense with the rest of the storyline.  Perhaps what they are trying to say is that it didn't seem to be a logical event within the flow of your story.   I think that's why most people read a long story, because one idea flows into another idea.  As we build our characters and set out our plotlines, the reader is making an investment by continuing to read.  And then hopefully rewarded with a twist a the end, which they didn't see coming but now that they think back on previous hints, it makes perfect sense. 

And that's pretty universal story telling...nothing original.  Perhaps your idea is better.


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## ironpony (Apr 10, 2021)

Oh okay, that makes sense.  Well in my story the protagonist goes from being mr. morally clean, to corrupt, and I wanted to make his corrupt turn as much of a surprise as possible.  But I was told that by not foreshadowing it, it makes the protagonist uninteresting for the first act, because for the first act, he has no moral flaws as a result of starting out as mr. clean.  So I see what they mean, but if I give him moral flaws in the first act to make him more interesting, then he doesn't have as big of a character arc, since I foreshadowed it, if that makes sense?  So not sure what to do about that.


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## Kent_Jacobs (Apr 10, 2021)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, that makes sense.  Well in my story the protagonist goes from being *mr. morally clean, to corrupt*, and I wanted to make his corrupt turn as much of a surprise as possible.  But I was told that by not foreshadowing it, it makes the protagonist uninteresting for the first act, because for the first act, he has no moral flaws as a result of starting out as mr. clean.  So I see what they mean, but if I give him moral flaws in the first act to make him more interesting, then he doesn't have as big of a character arc, since I foreshadowed it, if that makes sense?  So not sure what to do about that.



Get rid of that idea. I've told you how you can take good traits and turn them into bad traits. All you need is circumstance. Is he perhaps self determined? That can turn to stubbornness so easily. Is he attentive? That can turn to obsession easily. Is he shy? That can lead to resentment easily.


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## Theglasshouse (Apr 10, 2021)

I'd write something else. That is until you can find a good answer on your own terms. You can set it aside, and work on a different screenplay. That is until you think you have the idea that will interest you to finish this one. In fact, screenplays aren't the only writing you can do.  Rewriting a screenplay is an arduous task. I think you might need peer feedback from people in that side of the business.  If you want to write a morally corrupt character the audience might not like the character. There aren't that many anti-heroes I can recall I liked to read about. The only one who would write them is Bester that I have read. I admit I have more reading to do. I read two of his novels with anti-heroes. The demolished man and the stars my destination I read some time ago. I think you need to try something that is easy to do. Movies need to have likable characters in my opinion. If your character arc centers on that a good character that turns into a bad type of character I wouldn't know how to make it work. I doubt anyone here would be willing to write such a character,


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## ironpony (Apr 10, 2021)

Oh okay.  Those are good points to think about.  Well the good character turned bad has been done succcessfully before such as Breaking Bad or The Godfather off the top of my head so I thought it was do-able.


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