# The INDIE Publishing Revolution and the PROMO Vultures



## David Gordon Burke (Jun 27, 2015)

Here's the darker side of my other thread, ' The Amazon Game ' - I am wondering what people's opinions are of the current marketing strategies that most of the 'Successful' Self Published Indie Authors are employing.

In a bid to get a bigger bang for my 'Free' Kindle giveaway which I'm running on my latest book, I joined a bunch of facebook groups.  I have to tell you that it left me hoping that if there is such a thing as reincarnation, that in the next lifetime I come back as a dung-beetle. Cause whoa ... talk about bad company.  I'd much rather push a ball of Wildebeest droppings for the entirety for my next life than hang with these homosapiens.  

First and foremost is the sheer volume of dreck commercial pop fiction.  Not a thought provoking, redeemable theme or idea in the bunch. While I realize that the Amazon world is mostly genre driven lit, is it too much to ask that authors strive for something just a hair more enlightened than the latest slasher movie or a porn flic?  Apparently not.

And then I got the biggest flash.  It seems that the vast majority of these writers (who most obviously don't need the success they so desire) are using various services that tweet and blog and facebook and otherwise promote their books via social media to their huge network of sheeple to the tune of in some cases up to $500 per title.  

Is it just me or does this seem like dirty pool to anyone else?  

Ok, so advertising exists.  I am a huge hater of TV commercials, billboards and marketing in general.  The better the world gets at selling us crappola, the lower the quality of the crappola they are selling.  Hence the millions of American households with Thigh-Masters stuffed to the back of a dusty closets.  

I have managed to list my book with a variety of FREE services that will supposedly feature my freebee during its five day sale period.
Now I have no problem with a service that charges a reasonable free - I'd even heard of some $5 and $10 sites and have them bookmarked for future reference.  But 500 smakeroonies?  Damn, that's about half the yearly minimum wage here in Mexico.  Just out of control.

If Amazon is going to crack down on false reviews and change their policies for rankings and realight their KU/KOLL pay out and all other sorts of renovations which IMHO do nothing to help the true struggling writer, the least they could do is end this PAYOLA nonsense.  

Has anyone ever used a service that wasn't a money gouger and if so, did they have any good results?

David Gordon Burke
PS.  As a side note, I do belong to a twitter group that for a minimal fee has created a self help community where we tweet and retweet each other's work, review and generally support each other.  It seems to me that while I enjoy hanging at writingforums.com ... there could be and should be more support going on.  Hell, this is about the first forum I have been part of since I became computer savy where I didn't want to strangle half the users and stop contributing after the first few months.  We should be doing more to support each other.  I'd gladly give my time to help other members.


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## Riis Marshall (Jun 28, 2015)

Hello David

You've articulated some of the reasons I've decided to put whatever effort it takes to find an agent and go the traditional route to fame and fortune. I'd rather spend my time writing than jumping through all the hoops an indie publisher must go through to see her or his book on the shelves of the local bookstore or supermarket.

Having said that, I know a couple of authors who make a decent living having published their own books.

It's a scary, seriously commercial world out there and if we want to see our books in print we must put up with some crap. The problem is choosing a route that gives you the most return for the least crap.

And can somebody explain to me how my following Holly Willoughby on Twitter is going to improve my chances of getting published. Sure, she has a great set of jugs but what does that have to do with selling my books.

All the best with your writing.

Warmest regards
Riis


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## Schrody (Jun 28, 2015)

Well David, the only thing we can offer to each other, here on the Forum, _is_ support and advices. Writing Forums is not a promotional tool, and where would we be if we all started buying each others books, just because? I'm not saying our members books are bad (God forbid), but this place is not for building an audience, but to make friends, it's a place to hide from all those wannabe writer meanies. I hope you do realize what I mean.


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## TKent (Jun 28, 2015)

This is one of the many reasons I love it, too. 



> Hell, this is about the first forum I have been part of since I became computer savy where I didn't want to strangle half the users and stop contributing after the first few months. We should be doing more to support each other.



WF does quite a bit in this area. As much as they can and still maintain a spam free environment. I'm sure you already know about these things but just in case, you can find it under the advertisement section. http://www.writingforums.com/faq.php?faq=rules_and_guidelines#faq_r_mbr_rules Members can put their books in the store here, put links in their signatures and quite a few other things. If members were allowed to plug their work without any restrictions, this would just be another one of those places you mention in your post. 



> It seems to me that while I enjoy hanging at writingforums.com ... there could be and should be more support going on.



I don't consider payng for advertising a book, a dirty pool. I call it the facts of life. I am learning to write but don't expect that it will ever make me enough money to take the place of my day job. What is the difference between you spending hours self-promoting your book to gain sales, and me working 5 or 6 hours at my day job and paying for an ad? Or me paying for an ad and getting enough sales that I don't have to give my book away for free or spend hours in groups spreading the word? When it comes to sales, books are products, just like Nike tennis shoes and everything else. The whole point is to get your book in front of people. Sure there are ways to get your book out there for free but like you said, it takes away from writing time.



> Is it just me or does this seem like dirty pool to anyone else?



Whether you are paying cash to get your book tweeted, or spending the time to do it yourself (which means you are taking your time away from making cash and/or writing, which in my mind is equivalent) then the key is finding the methods to promote that result in sales. That is not easy! The value of the threads that you have created here on Amazon is that it gives WF members a place to share experiences with those of us who have limited time and/or advertising dollars. So keep it up! Between you and others, I've learned a lot about things that I want to do and/or avoid based on your experiences! I am always interested in reading your publishing related threads so thanks! I hope to someday share some of my learnings as well


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## David Gordon Burke (Jun 28, 2015)

FYI
The expression is Dirty pool .... not A dirty pool.
Conduct that is unfair, unethical or illegal. Being deceitful or deceptive for unfair advantage.
The only reason Charlie keeps winning is he's just playing some dirty pool to create an advantage over his competition.


It seems to me that the process of creating a large group of people that extend their influence over another larger group based on a pay scheme is not unlike that of the mafia.  Obvously, my bias is in play here.  I don´t think the rich should get a free pass to success while those of us who cannot afford the $500 price tag are left out in the cold.  

What the mega-promo services are doing is undermining any slim hope that books will be judged and succeed based on merit.  It´s bad enough that we have to compete with smut and other (sic) baser literary forms.  

I consider it Payola.  

I do see your point about keeping the forum clean of promo links.  I participate in too many on-line communities to memorize the idiosyncrasies of each and every site.  Do we have a promo area here?  

David Gordon Burke


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## kbsmith (Jun 28, 2015)

I like this thread. 

I think paying people to like your book then calling yourself a writer is nonsense, akin to paying prostitutes and then calling yourself a ladies man. A bleak fact of life: the greatest artists are almost never appreciated during their lifetime. 

People love the art after the artist is dead because they can allow the work a sort of supernatural quality that transcends mortal boundaries. This runs the gamut from painting and music, and into long form fiction and film and so on. 

The truth of the matter is that creating for no audience at all, for merely the pleasure of creation, is the essence of artistic endeavor. It begins with an audience of one. All other work belongs in the commercial sphere of big paid ads and marketing strategies and best sellers list and trending hash tags, th e like of of which I will never see. 

A Depressing realization of my place in the universe, but all the more inspiration to continue creating art for the sake of art.  

Great thoughts on the matter. Thnks for sharing. 

I think you should make your work readily available. Promote yourself as normal and continue to add to your catalog. The audience you deserve will find you, either in this life or the next. 
Just my two cents.


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## Kevin (Jun 28, 2015)

Mnnn. There are shortcuts to popularization. What they are exactly, well, they change with each invention. Why? Because the moment a formula succeeds everyone copies it or would copy it wrecking any novelty and oversaturating immediately. I could give examples but that would require mentioning things I find distasteful only further contributing to their popularity, and yes, that matters to me only for my own personal preferences, having zero net effect really. 

So there you have it. If you have figured out the formula then so have a million others or several hundred others with enough millions to pull it off, thereby nullifying any advantage and nullifying the formula. Just ask the Butt-les, who came prior to the Beatles, but lacking the proper backing, and were two days late. Never heard of them, did you? See?


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## TKent (Jun 28, 2015)

Lol  Butchered another one. Thanks, I'll file that one away.



> FYI
> The expression is Dirty pool .... not A dirty pool.



Hey David, there are ways to promote your work. I'll just go ahead and copy the advertising section of the rules here but here is a link as well: 



> I do see your point about keeping the forum clean of promo links. I participate in too many on-line communities to memorize the idiosyncrasies of each and every site. Do we have a promo area here?



*Advertising: Third party advertising or promotion without prior approval by an Administrator, is prohibited on the main boards. 

Members are allowed to link to their outside work in their signature once they have access to signature options. 

Members with books for sale on Amazon may also request that they be added to the BookStore. 

Motley Tavern members (ie, Paying subscribers, Veterans, Patrons and staff) may post threads which promote their work in the Literary Emporium or, if appropriate, in Writers' Resources or other main forum board as provided and seems fitting. Motley Tavern members may also PM Admins or Supervisors to request notices to be posted in Site News and Announcements. 

Motley Tavern members who are professional publishers, writers, artists or illustrators, proofreaders or editors, may offer or discuss their services only within the Motley Tavern and the Outside Resources boards, or other Admin-designated area. Anything else will be considered spam and deleted. Spammers may be banned from the site without notice.

The forum: Outside Resources, containing Writers' Resources, Outside Invitations and Calls for Submissions, and CLASSIFIED - ADVERTISEMENTS, exists for the benefit of WF members. VIP Guest Promoters who advertise their goods and/or services will either be invited guests to the forum, or persons or companies who have subscribed to WF for the purpose of advertising. 

Members who have made at least 100 valid posts in forum discussions may advertise their goods and/or services in either the Writers' Resources or the CLASSIFIED - ADVERTISEMENTS, or if appropriate, in Outside Invitations and Calls for Submissions. 

PLEASE NOTE: All advertisements or offers are placed on the understanding that members avail themselves AT THEIR OWN RISK. The forum accepts no responsibility for any tangible or intangible damage arising from any advertisement found here.
*


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## David Gordon Burke (Jun 28, 2015)

kbsmith said:


> I think paying people to like your book then calling yourself a writer is nonsense, akin to paying prostitutes and then calling yourself a ladies man.



Hit the nail on the head there.
Further adventures in this theme from my promos today. 
Sent out emails to various folks asking them to download the book this coming week and review it.  At their leisure and with no obligation of course.
Got a letter back from some woman who runs a review blog asking me for money.
She will only do reviews on books for cash.  
So on one side of the indie revolution we have authors cashing in on the communities that some TWITS have built up.  (What is the noun for a person that tweets?  TWIT seems appropritate) and on the other side we have non-writers cashing in on writers´ desperation to be noticed.  What a sad comment on the human condition.
I have been giving this a lot of thought.  
There should be some kind of governing body that declares someone ´An Ethical Indie Writer´ meaning that they strive to write something more memorable than a box of popcorn, with some ´Value added´ to the world for their effort and who still functions on the principal of an ethical meritocracy.  

I realize that while there are going to be some authors that get that much needed spike in sales by paying out the $500 PAYOLA fee to various TWITS, in the long run it is not going to be enough to build a career.  They will cash in but eventually the consumer will get wise.

Case in point (and I won´t name names) one very successful Ebook pioneer who writes in the horror, mystery, suspense genre.  He was one of the first millionaire Kindlers.  Luckily he made a name before Amazon made the changes that have put the trad publishers that sell the ebooks on Amazon WAY ahead of the INDIES.  

I have tried to read some of said author´s work.  Pure rubbish.  His horror is a cheap Stephen King knock-off.  His detective stories are barely a pathetic substitute for Robert B. Parker.  Blatant plagarism in my opinion.

So I will keep doing what I´m doing.  
I´m still banking on the belief that the number of people out there that have and love animals will one day discover my work.  I´d rather sell one book a day for the rest of my life than sell 500 this month and then be forgotten.

David Gordon Burke


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## David Gordon Burke (Jun 28, 2015)

TKent said:


> *
> 
> Members with books for sale on Amazon may also request that they be added to the BookStore.
> 
> *



Who does one talk to or contact about that?

David Gordon Burke


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## TKent (Jun 29, 2015)

PM Gumby, she can get you to the right person if it isn't her!


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## David Gordon Burke (Jun 29, 2015)

Further adventures of the Ethically challenged.  On a facebook author page, an enquiry concerning the value and return of BUYING facebook likes.  

I have seen a bunch of ads on Twitter for $39 to add 5 thousand followers.  I have no idea the value of having someone who isn't interested in your product of service following you but ..... apparently it is a cancer that has spread to facebook as well.

Weird.  

David Gordon Burke


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