# New Old History



## gokedik (Sep 11, 2014)

The president always validates Israels move but they are innocent, either. There are two sides to every story. Here is the other. I wanted to post  alone but I could only find them on youtube.
[video=youtube;s9jUAcwbEeo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9jUAcwbEeo[/video]


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## Pandora (Sep 12, 2014)

Moving video, very much so, thank you for sharing.

I would wish our President to be a peacekeeper, I don't think I'm so naive anymore. It goes to "interests" yes? Most all wars are made up of two sides, why we have them and can't agree to compromise. One terrible hurt deserves another and the cycle of hate continues. I would wish for forgiveness and a clean slate to work together to stop violence. For one side, the human side.


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## dither (Sep 12, 2014)

If only Pandora, if only.


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## Megookin (Sep 12, 2014)

Be careful when bringing up negative facts about Israel to light.  You will be labeled anti-Semite and cast into the role of a social pariah.  The Israelis learned well from their history and have perfected many tactics that were used against them in the past to use against others now.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Sep 12, 2014)

Neither the Israelis nor the Arabs are exactly choirboys. Sooner or later they will both be swallowed up by their intense hatred for each other.


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## gokedik (Sep 12, 2014)

Pandora said:


> Moving video, very much so, thank you for sharing.
> 
> I would wish our President to be a peacekeeper, I don't think I'm so naive anymore. It goes to "interests" yes? Most all wars are made up of two sides, why we have them and can't agree to compromise. One terrible hurt deserves another and the cycle of hate continues. I would wish for forgiveness and a clean slate to work together to stop violence. For one side, the human side.


This is why I write for an activist group and am so passionate about it. The world acts like Israel and Palestine cannot exist without endless fighting and children dying or becoming orphaned. I say, "No, you ALL are wrong." As I asked my sister last night after telling her that I loved her; I have not the energy to fight anymore. Try to empathize, PLEASE! What I didn't say was that if she doesn't then we will remain estranged, I told her that if "I love you" cannot stop this  argument, then maybe age will school you. Empathy is powerful and just her attempt will warm my heart. Same thing for the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. The US, by creating an Israeli country back in WWII,  flat out stole Palestinian land. It was Palestine before the Americans got involved. And then we trained soldiers and provided weapons, tank, guided rockets and fighter planes that Palestinians did not have, and still don't have. Sure the Jews have be treated terribly for calling themselves "the chosen one's", but should they have a country of their own created where other were living? But it took immeasurable nerve and brute force to run people out of their homes and declare people's neighborhoods a new country. I think we were, and continue to be, wrong in this fight, but since we inflamed this conflict, we stand by Israel. Even though Palestinians only have homemade weapons but they've gotten stronger since Hammas stepped in, which was bound to happen. 

There is no easy way out of this problem but Humility and Empathy, on both sides, is where the end will begin. And Gaza, literally, a strip of land on the coast that people have been dying to live on for decades. It must be beautiful. I know if someone tried to take Southern California from me I would not weaponize myself but move up north and make the bay area my new home. But Southern California isn't my ancestral home. I lost my culture at Ellis Island. The "American" way (?), I suppose. But I have learned to adopt a culture-less life as most of us have had to. It seems aggression flows clearer than the water they drink. Ariel Sharon had his opportunity but had no compassion. Does hope exist, absolutely. The leaders must set presidents and be able to feel for those that are suffering. But that is rare.


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## Ethan (Sep 12, 2014)

When they learn to love their children more than they hate us, there may be a chance for peace...Golda Meir

_*The Jews love life, so that is what we will take from them,, we are going to win because they love life and we love death....Hassan Nasrallah*, Secretary General of Hezbollah_


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## Fivetide (Sep 12, 2014)

All politicians are only human.. I just wish they would act like it now and then.


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## Ethan (Sep 12, 2014)

_
*How odd*
*Of God*
*To choose*
*The Jews  *      William Norman Ewer  
*But not so odd*
*As those who choose*
*A Jewish God*
*But spurn the Jews *     T E Brown  

_


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## Kevin (Sep 12, 2014)

And how was Hezbollah formed, hmm? A formerly apolitical, unrepresented people, the 30% Shia of a majority Christian country, Lebanon. They threw rice and cheered when the Israelis removed the PLO. But when they began the civilian door-crashings and beatings/arrests, there was a backlash. An Israeli tank drove over the top of a line of civilian occupied vehicles. *Poof* into the void formed a resistance. Naturally some of the worst elements were drawn, extremists, and other violent personalities. Prior to that they didn't exist.


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## Ethan (Sep 12, 2014)

Stunning, the history of a terrorist organization in four lines! Without expoding this into a fractious and no win argument, Lebanon has the highest 'Christian' percentage of population in the Mid East agreed. BUT, it is politically ruled by a minority Shite Muslim party. THERE HAS NOT BEEN A CENSUS THERE FOROVER SEVENTY YEARS!

Shite Muslims, traditionally the weakest religious group in Lebanon, first found their voice in the moderate and largely secular Amal movement. Following the Islamic revolution in Shīʿite Iran in 1979 and the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982, a group of Lebanese Shīʿite clerics formed Hezbollah with the goal of driving Israel from Lebanon and establishing an Islamic state there. Hezbollah was based in the predominately Shīʿite areas of the Biqāʿ Valley, southern Lebanon, and southern Beirut. It coordinated its efforts closely with Iran, from which it acquired substantial logistical support, and drew its manpower largely from disaffected younger, more radical members of Amal. Throughout the 1980s Hezbollah engaged in increasingly sophisticated attacks against Israel and fought in Lebanon’s civil war (1975–90), repeatedly coming to blows with Amal. During that time, Hezbollah allegedly engaged in terrorist attacks including kidnappings and car bombings, directed predominantly against Westerners, but also established a comprehensive social services network for its supporters (Source Enc.Britannica).

That said; the premis of the discussion or comments was whether or not the antagnists would ever see sense. Not who's to blame. As a wiser man than me has said.

IF YOU DISARM THE PALESTINIANS THERE WOULD  BE PEACE,, IF YOU DISARM ISRAEL THERE WOULD BE NO ISRAEL.  I can find no fault in this logic REGARDLESS OF WHO STARTED IT.!


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## PiP (Sep 13, 2014)

This is a reminder that debates are not allowed. I have therefore locked the thread for 24 hours. However, if the debate continues once the thread reopens it will be closed permanently and infractions may be handed out. Thank you for your 
cooperation.


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## hvysmker (Sep 17, 2014)

Another largely unknown point is that Iran has the largest Jewish population in the area, outside of Israel.

At on point, Israel  tried every ploy they could to get them to immigrate there  but they consider Iran their home.  Israel would love to be able to accuse Iran of anti-semitism but, no luck so far. He-he.

Charlie


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## dale (Sep 17, 2014)

Megookin said:


> Be careful when bringing up negative facts about Israel to light.  You will be labeled anti-Semite and cast into the role of a social pariah.  The Israelis learned well from their history and have perfected many tactics that were used against them in the past to use against others now.


 the only group of people which other people can get away with talking negative about is anglo-white males. on the flip-side of your point here, though? if you talk against the side of the exiled jordanians (palestinians), you get called an islamophobe.


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## gokedik (Sep 18, 2014)

Ethan said:


> When they learn to love their children more than they hate us, there may be a chance for peace...Golda Meir
> 
> _*The Jews love life, so that is what we will take from them,, we are going to win because they love life and we love death....Hassan Nasrallah*, Secretary General of Hezbollah_


I'd wager that Hezbollah is just trying to frighten pliable Jews. If you love Death what are you doing here? Or do they mean they aren't afraid to become Martyrs? That statement is suspect to me. Love and Death, aside each other, in the same sentence? I think not.


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## Kevin (Sep 18, 2014)

I wonder if you can follow the symbolism there in the video? 'Broad shoulders and thick arms'... I found the last part, the mention the 'Caliph' the most interesting.


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## dale (Sep 18, 2014)

Kevin said:


> I wonder if you can follow the symbolism there in the video? 'Broad shoulders and thick arms'... I found the last part, the mention the 'Caliph' the most interesting.



well, of course the video is pure propaganda. most everything related to the israeli/exiled jordanians conflict is.


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## Kevin (Sep 18, 2014)

It's like a recruitment video, like... if this pisses you off (the massacre) then you (young Palestinian) should get tough, and the toughest of the tough would be the Caliphate...   which, by the way is what ISil is declaring (that they _are_ the Caliphate). So far there has been 0 link in our media between the Palestinians and ISil.  I'm not saying there is, but I just find it interesting, the whole situation. It's very complicated and it seems like for every action taken, there are unforeseen consequences.

 as far as Jordanians versus Palestinians...a similar video could be made about Black September. I wonder how that stands as a lightening rod for um, vendetta or revenge?


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## dale (Sep 18, 2014)

Kevin said:


> It's like a recruitment video, like... if this pisses you off (the massacre) then you (young Palestinian) should get tough, and the toughest of the tough would be the Caliphate...   which, by the way is what ISil is declaring (that they _are_ the Caliphate). So far there has been 0 link in our media to the Palestinians and ISil.  I'm not saying there is but I just find it interesting, the whole situation. It's very complicated and it seems like for every action taken, there are unforeseen consequences.
> 
> as far as Jordanians versus Palestinians...a similar video could be made about Black September. I wonder how that stands as a lightening rod for um, vendetta or revenge?


the "palestinians" ARE jordanians. the word palestinian is simply the arabic word for "philistine"..the enemy of the israelites in biblical times. jordan
won't accept their own people back because they make great political/religious cannon fodder for the TV.


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## Mistique (Sep 18, 2014)

I don't know much about politics - I don't claim to be that smart - but all those people dying; that should be sad to all those involved.


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## Kevin (Sep 18, 2014)

Dale.. you know full well I'm not allowed to argue with you that Jordanians are the people of the territory that is currently called Jordan, whereas Palestinian refers to those Arabs who are people of the area now occupied by 'other name-states',  (much the same as a person of Indiana is not an Ohioan). So since we are not arguing, only reminding each other, I give you smootches... tootles


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## dale (Sep 18, 2014)

Kevin said:


> Dale.. you know full well I'm not allowed to argue with you that Jordanians are the people of the territory that is currently called Jordan, whereas Palestinian refers to those Arabs who are people of the area now occupied by 'other name-states',  (much the same as a person of Indiana is not an Ohioan). So since we are not arguing, only reminding each other, I give you smootches... tootles



 lol. but there's never been a "palestine". there was once a roman empire territory named something similar, but the romans did that to piss off the jews.
there's never been a real, defined palestine EVER. unless you want to count philistine.


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## dale (Sep 18, 2014)

i tell ya what. israel was recreated in 1947. show me a 1946 map that has the country of "palestine" on it and i'll concede the point.


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## gokedik (Sep 19, 2014)

Ethan said:


> When they learn to love their children more than they hate us, there may be a chance for peace...Golda Meir
> 
> _*The Jews love life, so that is what we will take from them,, we are going to win because they love life and we love death....Hassan Nasrallah*, Secretary General of Hezbollah_


I find this second statement to be highly suspect. Sounds like they're trying to strike fear in Jewish people. If they love Death what are they doing here, or is it, you aren't afraid to martyr yourself. Either way love and death have no business in the same sentence side by side. And martyr's better be sure where their going after killing. That takes no skill and is the most desperate thing you can do. SICKENING!


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## Kevin (Sep 19, 2014)

Does it matter? The people that lived there that were not recent immigrants and did not wish to be ruled by foreign invaders or live in a declared Jewish state were evicted. They didn't live in Jordan, or Lebanon or Egypt. The land where they were born was taken over by mostly European immigrants. Explain how that makes them Jordanian, cause I'm not following. They call themselves Palestinian. So what? If they don't have the proper name they don't exist? 

it's easy to be magnanimous when you hold all the chips. In any armed conflict any time one side achieves its military objectives they're ready to sue for peace. If only the losers would just be reasonable. We can all be friends, you... as a second class citizen until we can trust you. Just submit... heck, if you try hard you might even become one us. Just speak our language, take on our culture and never grumble about the past. And by the way, we have history and god on our side. Allau Akbar.


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## dale (Sep 19, 2014)

Kevin said:


> Does it matter? The people that lived there that were not recent immigrants and did not wish to be ruled by foreign invaders or live in a declared Jewish state were evicted. They didn't live in Jordan, or Lebanon or Egypt. The land where they were born was taken over by mostly European immigrants. Explain how that makes them Jordanian, cause I'm not following. They call themselves Palestinian. So what? If they don't have the proper name they don't exist?
> 
> it's easy to be magnanimous when you hold all the chips. In any armed conflict any time one side achieves its military objectives they're ready to sue for peace. If only the losers would just be reasonable. We can all be friends, you... as a second class citizen until we can trust you. Just submit... heck, if you try hard you might even become one us. Just speak our language, take on our culture and never grumble about the past. And by the way, we have history and god on our side. Allau Akbar.



but do you realize that the muslims in israel have more rights and freedom than the muslims do in practically every muslim nation in the middle east?


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## Kevin (Sep 19, 2014)

Evidently they prefer it. They don't want jewish rule. I'm not pro- muslim, but... I do like to know the real story... not this Kirk Douglas movie where everyone dances the nagila. I have no sympathy for blowing up civilians, hijacking, etc. but neither am I going to accept all that I'm told. If they came over here I would resist.

 It's a way different culture. We haven't experienced anything like it here, so we don't get it.


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## Terry D (Sep 19, 2014)

gokedik said:


> I'd wager that Hezbollah is just trying to frighten pliable Jews. If you love Death what are you doing here? Or do they mean they aren't afraid to become Martyrs? That statement is suspect to me. Love and Death, aside each other, in the same sentence? I think not.



Nothing suspect about it. A quick Google search finds that Nasrallah said this back in 2004. He's also said "If they (the Jews) all gather in one place it will save us the trouble of going after them." Daily Star Oct, 2002. Forgive me if I fail to see Hezbollah as victims.


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## Terry D (Sep 19, 2014)

Kevin said:


> It's a way different culture. We haven't experienced anything like it here, so we don't get it.



Talk to a few Native Americans. The history of mankind from the early hominids on is a non-stop series of land-grabs. We are an aggressive, territorial species. That's why we invented fences; to make the grass on the other side look greener.


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## gokedik (Sep 19, 2014)

Kevin said:


> Does it matter? The people that lived there that were not recent immigrants and did not wish to be ruled by foreign invaders or live in a declared Jewish state were evicted. They didn't live in Jordan, or Lebanon or Egypt. The land where they were born was taken over by mostly European immigrants. Explain how that makes them Jordanian, cause I'm not following. They call themselves Palestinian. So what? If they don't have the proper name they don't exist?
> 
> it's easy to be magnanimous when you hold all the chips. In any armed conflict any time one side achieves its military objectives they're ready to sue for peace. If only the losers would just be reasonable. We can all be friends, you... as a second class citizen until we can trust you. Just submit... heck, if you try hard you might even become one us. Just speak our language, take on our culture and never grumble about the past. And by the way, we have history and god on our side. Allau Akbar.


I personally hold zero chips and live off a system. And is does matter. Submit yes but not to slave drivers or any of the like. The should be no class assigning just one level that the state can maintain and allow to grow. But what REALLY this is about is money. Just sad that people get caught in the crossfire. Must have empathy or it's impossible. WAR IS A BUSINESS, feeds hungry children and supports families.


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## bookmasta (Sep 19, 2014)

Closed as of now do to further debate after a warning was already posted.


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