# Good Times



## Caleb Murdock (May 2, 2018)

D


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## ned (May 3, 2018)

hello - yes, a confessional that you probably needed to get off your chest.
feelings put into words and shared to make them less intangible - which is fine.

other than a couple of expressions, it comes across as rather prosaic - all very 'telling' rather than showing.

the poem lifts when you mention your writing - a personal touch amongst the abstract pondering.
more of this sort of thing would be more engaging.

don't begin with 'I am writing again, which is good' - bland prose.
be more creative as a poet...

just my thoughts.................Ned


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## Caleb Murdock (May 3, 2018)

Thank you, Ned.

When I wrote this poem, I thought it was lyrical and lovely -- but as I was posting it, I suddenly realized that to some people it might seem bland and prosaic.  I'm reminded of something the actor Tony Randall said about himself:  He always thought he was a fascinating person ... until he realized that he was boring to most people.  I guess we are all fascinating to ourselves.

I'll be back later.


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## TL Murphy (May 3, 2018)

Try to use images in your writing.  Paint pictures with your words.


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## Outsider (May 3, 2018)

You've got some good stuff in this poem.  For example, I really liked "slay it with an inkwell".  Others I liked are "[/FONT]carve great accomplishments out of sand", "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]In just five words I wiped away my future" and "[FONT=&quot]the vessel is already broken".  More of this kind of imagery makes better poetry.


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## Proseph Biden (May 3, 2018)

This may be personal taste, but I am not a fan of rhetorical questions in writing (generally), but I feel that way particularly with poetry. I am not sure the question here moves the poem forward in any real fashion. It intends, it seems, to try to cast a wistful/nostalgic/youthful sense of the poem as a framework in the first stanza, but I think it falls a bit short in that regard. The intention is good, but I think rephrasing it as a more direct/assertive statement would be more effective.

I agree w/ Ned that it is decidedly "telling" rather than showing. To elucidate, the poem focuses rather explicitly on intangible concepts: an inescapable sense of doom and the attendant feeling of anxiety, youthful naivete, and the fleeting sense of self and accomplishment. However, some of these concepts are illustrated too directly or through metaphors that might be a bit too well-worn (I am referencing the "carve great accomplishments out of sand" image in particular for this comment). In some sense, there's a meta-poem here about your struggle with an imagistic self, since it takes an omniscient, descriptive viewpoint, but does not really "see" one's self so much as describes it, and that perhaps warrants further exploration in either another poem or an edited version of this one.


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## Caleb Murdock (May 3, 2018)

Thank you, everyone.  Now I know why I joined this forum.  The poem that I thought was a clear success has fallen flat for most of you.  I saw the poem as part psychological drama and part narrative with a lot of insights about human nature in it.

Proseph, I tend to "tell" instead of "show" in a lot of my poems, so it looks like the group is in for a lot of sleeping pills from me.

What is a "meta-poem"?  (Ah, I looked it up -- a poem that comments on itself.)


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## Nellie (May 4, 2018)

Caleb Murdock said:


> When I wrote this poem, I thought it was lyrical and lovely -- but as I was posting it, I suddenly realized that to some people it might seem bland and prosaic.  I'm reminded of something the actor Tony Randall said about himself:  He always thought he was a fascinating person ... until he realized that he was boring to most people.  I guess we are all fascinating to ourselves.
> 
> .



Keep on guessing.......... I never thought Tony Randall was fascinating but rather boring. I don't think of myself as fascinating, either.

So face the truth and start writing something poetic.


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## Firemajic (May 4, 2018)

Caleb Murdock said:


> “These are the good times” — thirty years ago,
> while celebrating friends, I had that thought.
> How did I know the good times wouldn't last?
> In just five words I wiped away my future.
> ...




Mood, created by imagery to support your message.... that is needed... try to avoid broad statements such as "youthful curse" .. "my life was wasted"..." my foresight".... because any message is diluted with weak phrases....

Having said that, it is easy to see you are a skilled, creative wordsmith....


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## Caleb Murdock (May 4, 2018)

Thank you, Firemajic, for saying some nice things.  It never occurred to me to open with a mysterious line.

I didn't think those were weak phrases.  I'll have to think about them.

By the way, many publications won't accept a poem which has been "published" on a poetry critique forum like this, if the forum is viewable by the public.  How do I get around that?


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## Firemajic (May 4, 2018)

Caleb Murdock said:


> Thank you, Firemajic, for saying some nice things.  It never occurred to me to open with a mysterious line.
> 
> I didn't think those were weak phrases.  I'll have to think about them.




Ok, instead of "weak"... lets call them "ambiguous" phrases... "Obscure" phrases.... what that means is those phrases do not give your reader any personal insight... nothing specific to relate to... they do not add any value to your message... and really, are not creative and lack imagery...


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## Firemajic (May 4, 2018)

Caleb Murdock said:


> By the way, many publications won't accept a poem which has been "published" on a poetry critique forum like this, if the forum is viewable by the public.  How do I get around that?




Use the workshop thread... it is a protected area....and some delete their poem, after they have work shopped it...


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## Caleb Murdock (May 4, 2018)

Firemajic said:


> Ok, instead of "weak"... lets call them "ambiguous" phrases... "Obscure" phrases.... what that means is those phrases do not give your reader any personal insight... nothing specific to relate to... they do not add any value to your message... and really, are not creative and lack imagery...


There will always be some disagreement about which images and/or phrases are good and which aren't, and we mustn't forget that.  I had thought that I had chosen well in this case.  However, I'll take your opinion into consideration when revising the poem.

So no one will be offended if I remove a poem at some point after it has been critiqued?  That's good.  Thanks.

Where will I find those workshop forums?  I don't see them in "Verse".  (Ah, I think I found it.)


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## Firemajic (May 4, 2018)

Caleb Murdock said:


> There will always be some disagreement about which images and/or phrases are good and which aren't, and we mustn't forget that.  I had thought that I had chosen well in this case.  However, I'll take your opinion into consideration when revising the poem.
> 
> This is YOUR poem ... your vision... you have the final say... what I offered you was my opinion.... worth exactly what you paid for it


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## shedpog329 (May 5, 2018)

Upon reading this the first time, I would say I agree with you, very prosaic.  But after I read it again a few times, I think I enjoy it more and more with each read.  Keep the progression up and welcome to the forum!


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## Caleb Murdock (May 5, 2018)

Thank you, Shedpog.  I've noticed myself that when I first read a poem that's written in what I call "plain language", it can sound prosaic; but then on further reading, the artistry in the words will become apparent.  I was trying to write such a poem when I wrote this.

Incidentally, I find it interesting that people on forums like this still use the word "prosaic" as a criticism when prosaic poetry is now quite common and widely accepted.


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## ned (May 5, 2018)

Caleb Murdock said:


> Incidentally, I find it interesting that people on forums like this still use the word "prosaic" as a criticism when prosaic poetry is now quite common and widely accepted.



actually, it's called prose-poetry - because it isn't 'poetry' -
in the same way that homoeopathic medicine isn't called medicine...

this thread is labelled 'poetry' - so, maybe there should be a separate prose-poetry thread -
for those that like to break up their prose with line-breaks...(natural poet)


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## Caleb Murdock (May 6, 2018)

Prose poetry is poetry which doesn't use line breaks as a poetic device, but it's still considered poetry.  I think that trying to segregate it out from other poems would create problems.

As for my own poetry, I don't consider it to be prosaic.  I'm always surprised when people say that it is.

In case anyone cares, I will be posting all my new poems in the poetry workshop forum, which I believe is not visible to non-members.


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## ned (May 6, 2018)

Caleb Murdock said:


> Prose poetry is poetry which doesn't use line breaks as a poetic device,
> 
> Really? - then your poem should read -
> “These are the good times” — thirty years ago, while celebrating friends, I had that thought. How did I know the good times wouldn't last? In just five words I wiped away my future.   etc etc
> ...



good luck with the writing...............Ned


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## shedpog329 (May 6, 2018)

I don't know Ned, if we were to define it as "prose-poetry", wouldn't that be like a sub division of "poetry", it is in the name, right? Prose-poetry because it is poetry.


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## ned (May 6, 2018)

it's not my definition Shed - to me it's an oxymoron....


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## Caleb Murdock (May 6, 2018)

Ned, I'm not sure what I've done to get you riled up.

This poem is not a prose-poem.  Someone called it "prosaic", that's all.  I consider the poem to be blank verse (roughly metered without rhyme).

I now suspect that when people call my poetry "prosaic", it is because I do what Frost recommended:  "sentencing".  That is, I write in complete sentences.  Complete sentences are one of the common characteristics of prose, so a poem written in complete sentences may seem prosaic to poets who use abbreviated language.


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## shedpog329 (May 6, 2018)

Caleb, Ned can be fussy...but every now and again, we like em.  Pressures on at the WF.


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## ned (May 7, 2018)

not riled Caleb, by any means - just that I have certain poetical principles - but I'm no expert.

If a someone writes literal prose broken into fairly even lines to pass off as poetry - I'm calling it.
a complete absence of poetic language or devices underlines this.

you seem hung-up on rhythm, but I'm afraid I can't see it - sure, there's a pause at the end of each line
but proper rhythm is generated by careful wording within the lines.

if you posted this as prose in the prose forum, I've no doubt it would get slaughtered -
so why should substandard prose be acceptable as poetry? - is poetry inferior?

please don't take this personally Caleb, I'm speaking generally - but for me this type of work is lazy.
why bother with metaphor. rhyme, analogy etc - that's too hard, just trot out something plainly literal. and chop it up.

I now suspect that when 
people call my poetry prosaic 
it is because I do 
what Frost recommends

sorry to go on - but this forum is special to me, and I would hate to see it undermined by the unpoetic.

just my opinion, and I hope you understand......................Ned


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## Caleb Murdock (May 7, 2018)

Ned, I'm sorry that your knowledge of poetry is so limited that you aren't able to see the techniques, skill and labor that went into the writing of my poem.  I didn't just write it out in prose and then break it into lines; I labored over it for hours over a period of weeks, as I do with most of my poems.

If I wanted to, I could accuse you of the same thing:

"I can tell by the way you step through the hall [and] drop your keys in the porcelain bowl what sort of day you've had."

"I know you like R&B, earl grey tea and long walks in the autumn mist, but I don't have the foggiest why you're mad at me."

Those lines of yours sound like prose to me, but I know that they aren't.  You see, good poetry has the same basic structure as good prose:  They are both written in sentences.  (Note: I'm not calling your poetry "good"; I'm just making a point.)

How about this?

"A neighbor of mine in the village likes to tell how one spring, when she was a girl on the farm, she did a childlike thing.  One day she asked her father to give her a garden plot to plant and tend and reap herself, and he said, 'Why not?'"

That is from one of Robert Frost's poems.  With the exception of the rhymes, it sounds very prosaic to me. (It was, in fact, Frost who showed the English-speaking world how to write poetry in a relaxed, natural diction.)  The similarities between poetry and prose can be huge, and the techniques that distinguish one from the other can be subtle -- subtleties you apparently can't see.

The impression that I have is that you've developed a personal antipathy towards me for some reason (perhaps because I am certain of my opinions), so you're judging my poetry by standards which your own poetry can't meet. To call me "lazy" and to tell me that my poem isn't even bad prose is offensive beyond words.  So, yes, I take it personally.


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## ned (May 8, 2018)

hello Caleb - thank you for such a considered reply - and it's great that you're joining in the discussion.

first off, dismiss any notion of any 'personal antipathy' toward you - you're a complete stranger to me, and all I've got
to go on or care about is your poetry - ok, I'm not too fond of it, but please, don't shoot the messenger, or deflect
criticism by inventing some sort of agenda.

As for the lazy pop - despite my protestations that it was a generalised charge levelled at a whole genre, you leapt on 
the high moral ground - too bad, and debate is strangled.

So,let's get back to the meat and potatoes - "Good Times".

1) Basically, because the writing is almost devoid of poetical techniques, it is all too literal and not engaging enough.
2) It doesn't invoke any worthwhile emotion in me.
3) The message and sentiment is often unclear.
4) The rhythm within the wording is often slack and inconsistent.

The poem is certainly heartfelt, and has some nice ideas that deserve working into a more poetic form.
But all the 'telling' becomes rather distracting, and needs to be expressed through imagery. metaphor, analogy
or whatever it takes to engage the reader.

As for the rhythm, take a leaf from Frosty's book (not literally!) - read his work out loud, or google a rendition,
to gauge how the poetry flows.

had to laugh at this - Note: I'm not calling your poetry "good" - god forbid!

I've read all your poetry posted on this site, and this is my favourite I feel, and worth working on.

it's a thin line to walk Caleb - to discourage this form of work, 

while encouraging the writer..................Ned


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## Caleb Murdock (May 8, 2018)

I didn't read your response Ned.  I'm not in a mood to be insulted again.  This forum isn't for me.


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## ned (May 9, 2018)

yeah, sure you didn't.......

The reality is that you are not in the mood to receive critique or improve your poetry.

But should you ever be in the mood to be insulted -  you know where I am....


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