# What's On Your Mind About Your Writing? (1 Viewer)



## rosa220

You know, like Facebook? But instead, it's AWbook...lol

Anyway, I thought I would start a thread like that since I haven't seen one. If there is one, you can move this then.

What's on my mind about my writing? Well, a lot. I can't seem to stop thinking about writing. Sometimes it sucks thinking about it so much and writing too on top of it! ha!

Anyway, I'm writing my 5th novel right now. It's my third YA book. My first two are with my agent, which she's been great about. I was blessed to find one to represent both of my YAs. So I figured to write another while I wait on my submissions. I'm up to 38K words and nearing the end. I'm hoping to get it up to 50 but I feel like I barely have 10 left in me. I wrote an outline which is helping too but I feel like I'm crawling to write out the rest of it now.

Usually, I write out 2,000 words a day, but lately, it's barely 500. It seems like I can only do 500 in a sitting and then I get antsy to read it and look back on it. Like I said, I have an outline, and notes and I'm up to the 19th chapter, but I feel like I am forgetting what I write, it's nuts. Then the rest of the time, when I'm not writing, I friggin' thinking about writing. Like I said, it sucks. It's this vicious circle. And I know it won't stop till the novel is actually done, which could be a couple more months.

Anyway, your turn...

What's on your mind about your writing?


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## D. L. Keur

I'm simply irritated because I can't spend all the time I want writing. When I have days free and clear of husband's needs, friends' needs, etc., I do just fine.  But those days and spans of days are few and far between. I hate being 'a wanted woman', but I am.  Luckily, I'm organized, efficient, and capable, well able to switch gears, then switch back.  But I miss the luxury of spans of days, weeks, even years of locking myself away in solitude, completely free of any obligations other than caring for pets and stock. In a word, what's on my mind about my writing is getting done and onto the next and the next and the next books.


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## Taylor

When I'm sitting at my computer and writing, I'm  as happy as a clam!  However, sometimes I find it hard to get into my writing head.  It's like I'm standing at the edge of the pool wanting to take a swim...but I poke my toe in and it's cold...so it takes a LOT of will power to jump in.   Once I'm in it's fantastic!!!


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## Blaiyze

@Taylor that's a delicious way of describing your situation. I can certainly relate!

@rosa220 I feel your plight on a spiritual level. 

I've recently come back to a trilogy I started a few years back, and dusting off the cobwebs seems easier said than done. For me, I'm having a hard time crawling back into the head of one of my main characters, specifically for the flashback scenes I'm currently working on. This character has a very tough past. In some ways it's cathartic, as their experiences mirror some personal trauma and scenarios, or are close enough to, that merely entertaining this characters' perspective opens a Pandora's box that I thought long closed. It's almost like I have to rediscover their voice - I've been rereading another flashback that I wrote, and adore, but it has such a jarring, visceral tone to it that I'm not accustomed to writing, because it's written first person from their perspective. 

Hope you're able to push through and get that novel done!


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## PrairieHostage

Love the question and answers. When I'm on first ten or so passes through the novel, I can think of nothing else in my waking hours. I dream up scenes, characteristics, inner angst and funny stuff and I miss my characters. I'm very lucky. Retired with no livestock (god bless you, Dawn).I do have grandbabies & two cats to whom one of my fav question is "do I owe you some supper?"

Now I'm just finished my twentieth or so pass on my first YA and I no longer carry the story or characters around with me like I used to. I'm jealous you have an agent. Until end of June, I'll be querying the first 25 I've identified & researched.


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## AurelianGuy

rosa220 said:


> Usually, I write out 2,000 words a day, but lately, it's barely 500. It seems like I can only do 500 in a sitting and then I get antsy to read it and look back on it. Like I said, I have an outline, and notes and I'm up to the 19th chapter, but I feel like I am forgetting what I write, it's nuts. Then the rest of the time, when I'm not writing, I friggin' thinking about writing. Like I said, it sucks. It's this vicious circle. And I know it won't stop till the novel is actually done, which could be a couple more months.



Ah yes, the endless wordcount struggles, those are always lovely! On my end I'm something of a workout nut on the side, and I find when I'm running I can really sharpened those scenes mentally that would otherwise leave me scratching my head when I sit down to write. Maybe try to take up yoga on the side? 

As for me, the thing that continues to surprise me is the depth that comes from character interactions and the different ways they always ends up redefining scenes. There are some scenes that I've had planned out for years now -- except when I finally get there I find just about a million little details that end up changing the flow of the entire scene. 

Does it make the story better? Yes, absolutely.

Does it also end up adding to my already disturbingly overused plot details notepad? _Unfortunately. _


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## twinmommy1113

I was doing great with my writing! Going pretty steady until boom!! I started overthinking a subject that has been tabooed by our modern-day critics. Now, I can't stop thinking about it nor can I continue writing about it until I can either get some expert advice or a poll of suggestion and approvals and disapprovals. Maybe a go heads from the president? I don't know. I have a moral and logical mind on top of an imagination that could build magical cities, but I cannot move on with my book until I figure out what to do with these to characters. Please send up having a mental breakdown.


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## Parabola

rosa220 said:


> Usually, I write out 2,000 words a day, but lately, it's barely 500. It seems like I can only do 500 in a sitting and then I get antsy to read it and look back on it. Like I said, I have an outline, and notes and I'm up to the 19th chapter, but I feel like I am forgetting what I write, it's nuts. Then the rest of the time, when I'm not writing, I friggin' thinking about writing. Like I said, it sucks. It's this vicious circle. And I know it won't stop till the novel is actually done, which could be a couple more months.
> 
> Anyway, your turn...
> 
> What's on your mind about your writing?



This is where I'm at currently. 1,500 words to start off the morning, a bit of a break then another 500 after. Usually as I get further into a project, motivation will wain and my wordcount will start to slow down.


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## chrismhayes1980

The one thing I really really hate about my writing, is I have this real life troll of a gremlin that's a roommate of mine that's been a good friend for about the last 9 years.

However sometimes I'll sit there writing out quite a bit of a chapter or maybe even three or four scenes and get up to go do something setting my tablet down or leaving my computer open, don't get me wrong it never irritates me about that because there's nothing on any of it to hide but he'll be reading through it and yeah I know I have to take whatever he says with a grain of salt, but last night I actually wrote a sequence that I thought humanized my MC and he told me he lost all faith in him and can never look at him as more then a sidekick or comic relief now. Totally shaking my confidence and stopping me from writing now.


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## Parabola

The ending is planned out, but I want to make sure it acknowledges the long buildup of tension between two prominent characters. I've already changed what leads up to the ending once which inevitably led to other aspects being shifted.


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## Kent_Jacobs

What's on my mind at the moment is the build up to a harrowing scene. I'm after setting it up for the best impact. The scene has to 'feel' right. The character has to be in the perfect mindset for it to hit correctly. And the catalyst for the scene (a widower) needs to say exactly the right thing for it to work as intended. The aim is to hit the reader with a gut punch and, hopefully, upset them. Tears would be my ultimate reward. Fingers crossed, I can ruin their day, but compel them to read on ...


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## chrismhayes1980

At least you haven't written yourself into such a devastating corner like I have. 

My MC might not even be able function when the time comes because it being a long lost childhood friend. That's the final BBE


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## vanessaawriter

rosa220 said:


> You know, like Facebook? But instead, it's AWbook...lol
> 
> Anyway, I thought I would start a thread like that since I haven't seen one. If there is one, you can move this then.
> 
> What's on my mind about my writing? Well, a lot. I can't seem to stop thinking about writing. Sometimes it sucks thinking about it so much and writing too on top of it! ha!
> 
> Anyway, I'm writing my 5th novel right now. It's my third YA book. My first two are with my agent, which she's been great about. I was blessed to find one to represent both of my YAs. So I figured to write another while I wait on my submissions. I'm up to 38K words and nearing the end. I'm hoping to get it up to 50 but I feel like I barely have 10 left in me. I wrote an outline which is helping too but I feel like I'm crawling to write out the rest of it now.
> 
> Usually, I write out 2,000 words a day, but lately, it's barely 500. It seems like I can only do 500 in a sitting and then I get antsy to read it and look back on it. Like I said, I have an outline, and notes and I'm up to the 19th chapter, but I feel like I am forgetting what I write, it's nuts. Then the rest of the time, when I'm not writing, I friggin' thinking about writing. Like I said, it sucks. It's this vicious circle. And I know it won't stop till the novel is actually done, which could be a couple more months.
> 
> Anyway, your turn...
> 
> What's on your mind about your writing?


 My thoughts about my writing is its good but i still need work and yet i have a book out. i don't feel professional yet. Even my bog might be  little more professional then my book but i can learn  a bit  more. I think people think i am a crazy because i am not just sticking to kids books. I feel like  why do i have to stay in a corner. I can do different things and maybe still be good at it but i guess only time will tel.


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## Parabola

I hope I don't drown in a sea of social values.


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## bdcharles

chrismhayes1980 said:


> The one thing I really really hate about my writing, is I have this real life troll of a gremlin that's a roommate of mine that's been a good friend for about the last 9 years.
> 
> However sometimes I'll sit there writing out quite a bit of a chapter or maybe even three or four scenes and get up to go do something setting my tablet down or leaving my computer open, don't get me wrong it never irritates me about that because there's nothing on any of it to hide but he'll be reading through it and yeah I know I have to take whatever he says with a grain of salt, but last night I actually wrote a sequence that I thought humanized my MC and he told me he lost all faith in him and can never look at him as more then a sidekick or comic relief now. Totally shaking my confidence and stopping me from writing now.


Don't write for that guy.


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## Kent_Jacobs

chrismhayes1980 said:


> The one thing I really really hate about my writing, is I have this real life troll of a gremlin that's a roommate of mine that's been a good friend for about the last 9 years.
> 
> However sometimes I'll sit there writing out quite a bit of a chapter or maybe even three or four scenes and get up to go do something setting my tablet down or leaving my computer open, don't get me wrong it never irritates me about that because there's nothing on any of it to hide but he'll be reading through it and yeah I know I have to take whatever he says with a grain of salt, but last night I actually wrote a sequence that I thought humanized my MC and he told me he lost all faith in him and can never look at him as more then a sidekick or comic relief now. Totally shaking my confidence and stopping me from writing now.


As Bdcharles said, don't write for him, write for you. It's unlikely you'll express exactly what you intend in the first draft or so. Just get it moving in the right direction, hit the most important points and later on adjust for maximum impact. Sometimes it doesn't feel right because of the way it's written. Often though, that's ALL that's wrong, which is easily remedied.


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## indianroads

I’m finishing up my WIP (The Last Ride), it should be ready to publish on Amazon next week. So now, I’m getting anxious about starting my next project.


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## chrismhayes1980

This is what I wrote as what I felt was a way to show he wasn't superhuman or that he was favored.









						Posting this because of my roommate
					


So this whole poll came about after my roommate sat there and totally trashed this next entry saying that now my main character was not worth writing about and he's giving me writer's block could I get some outside input please   Oren then said a small phrase and suddenly the entire location was...





					www.writingforums.com


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## Envy123

Apparently, word counts for urban fantasy run up to 60k words to even 80k words. But my setting is so limited - to one three-storey school building and a playground, as well as an old forgotten tower. And I'm a concise writer. Even with a lot more description, the only way to get even up to 60k words, is to drag out the story in a similar fashion to what I had imagined for the TV show iteration, back when it was a TV show idea.

That may not be a bad thing, considering I can put in social commentary on my time at a British private school, add new storylines about struggling to get good enough grades for certain classes or not being able to pass the school year, and possibly trying out for sports. But this would detract from the overall fantasy and may end up being more Diary of a Wimpy Kid than Harry Potter.

Difficult decisions to be made here...


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## VRanger

Envy123 said:


> Apparently, word counts for urban fantasy run up to 60k words to even 80k words. But my setting is so limited - to one three-storey school building and a playground, as well as an old forgotten tower. And I'm a concise writer. Even with a lot more description, the only way to get even up to 60k words, is to drag out the story in a similar fashion to what I had imagined for the TV show iteration, back when it was a TV show idea.
> 
> That may not be a bad thing, considering I can put in social commentary on my time at a British private school, add new storylines about struggling to get good enough grades for certain classes or not being able to pass the school year, and possibly trying out for sports. But this would detract from the overall fantasy and may end up being more Diary of a Wimpy Kid than Harry Potter.
> 
> Difficult decisions to be made here...


Here is where the concept of "filler" comes in. Filler sounds like a bad word, so let's use terms like "scene setting", "incidental action", "character building", and "internal dialogue".

Having said that, I wrote a fairy tale last year for which I couldn't justify full novel treatment. So I wrote a novella of 20K words. But in a novel length story, you need some "filler". You have to add material between the main plot's points of action. If you only write the action, you'll always come up short. This also touches on pacing. You need breaks between the action elements to give the reader a chance to take a breath and relax a bit before the next tension/conflict.

Harry Potter? The last three Harry Potter books were rife with useless filler. LOL Read Book Three and aim for that level of action and "filler". Book Four started to bloat, but Rowling had so many dedicated fans by then it didn't matter. Readers were going to finish the series no matter how tedious the last 3 1/2 entries became.


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## Envy123

VRanger said:


> Here is where the concept of "filler" comes in. Filler sounds like a bad word, so let's use terms like "scene setting", "incidental action", "character building", and "internal dialogue".
> 
> Having said that, I wrote a fairy tale last year for which I couldn't justify full novel treatment. So I wrote a novella of 20K words. But in a novel length story, you need some "filler". You have to add material between the main plot's points of action. If you only write the action, you'll always come up short. This also touches on pacing. You need breaks between the action elements to give the reader a chance to take a breath and relax a bit before the next tension/conflict.
> 
> Harry Potter? The last three Harry Potter books were rife with useless filler. LOL Read Book Three and aim for that level of action and "filler". Book Four started to bloat, but Rowling had so many dedicated fans by then it didn't matter. Readers were going to finish the series no matter how tedious the last 3 1/2 entries became.


My initial TV show idea for the story, before I started writing it as a book twice in my life, was going to have lots of filler that would yield 240 episodes per year.

Maybe I should go back to incorporating a lot of what was there from what I remember, to indeed give a break from the action and have my MC focus on other issues he has in the school. It may not be entirely urban fantasy anymore and the fantasy could be more incidental, but with the limited setting and all, maybe it's for the best.


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## Parabola

Reached another fork. MC wants revenge on friend turned adversary, but his enemy has legitimately fallen on hard times. Not to mention has become a mirror of his own loser-dom (so, this follows the thread of "sympathy, but of the self-focused kind"). Following through with that revenge would also move MC forward with a broader goal.


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## Parabola

I prefer to look at characters through the lens of extreme cynicism.


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## Parabola

Going back to the other MS I wrote, or specifically its sequel. A similar aspect pops up in both that one and the sequel I've been pondering loosely in my mind. In both, early on the MC goes back to the town where the events of the first took place. In the sequel to my current project, it's more of an accidental thing at first then has broader implications for the main plot. Also, in this one it sort of spans a gap of time (going to the town means a bit of time travel, though I hate putting that label on it).


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## Parabola

I tend to have years long obsessions with certain topics or interests, and then they just burn out. With writing, I've attempted to hack this by going down the nostalgia route, which seems to be the exception.


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## Envy123

I meant to have my story be a mix of urban fantasy and comedy, with a bit of horror. But the horror elements seem to have increased, so I am doubting my initial genre classification.


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## Erik Vaeli

I've realized I really love the story and the characters I'm working on. I don't necessarily always feel I have the right level of skill to fully bring it all to life the way I imagined it all in my head, but still. It's good to work on a creative project I'm actually passionate about and at least somewhat proud of for once.

But man, that anxiety that everything I work on secretly sucks just keeps on seeping in. Back when I did stand-up comedy, at least I'd know the moment I got on stage whether the things I wrote worked or not, based on whether the audience was laughing. But writing a science-fiction novel with a much more serious tone, I have no idea.

I've got one friend I share things with fairly actively, and she's got nothing but kind and encouraging words to say. Which, honestly makes me doubt them. I've tried to put things up with my D&D groups etc, just let people read if they want, but no one has. Except that one guy. "I liked it, but I do have a strong preference for plotline a over plotline b so far," was what he said after I shared the first three chapters. Now I'm working on the ninth. And I don't really know what to make of any of it. I'm sitting at thirty something views online for what I've worked on so far, the numbers aren't really growing, and no one's saying much.

Maybe it's just the whole being broke and alone in a strange country thing that's getting to me. Wanting the one thing I actually care about and find enjoyment and purpose in to actually be good. Or, at least, become something good. Just a bit of a vent on that topic, I guess.


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## indianroads

Erik Vaeli said:


> I've realized I really love the story and the characters I'm working on. I don't necessarily always feel I have the right level of skill to fully bring it all to life the way I imagined it all in my head, but still. It's good to work on a creative project I'm actually passionate about and at least somewhat proud of for once.
> 
> But man, that anxiety that everything I work on secretly sucks just keeps on seeping in. Back when I did stand-up comedy, at least I'd know the moment I got on stage whether the things I wrote worked or not, based on whether the audience was laughing. But writing a science-fiction novel with a much more serious tone, I have no idea.
> 
> I've got one friend I share things with fairly actively, and she's got nothing but kind and encouraging words to say. Which, honestly makes me doubt them. I've tried to put things up with my D&D groups etc, just let people read if they want, but no one has. Except that one guy. "I liked it, but I do have a strong preference for plotline a over plotline b so far," was what he said after I shared the first three chapters. Now I'm working on the ninth. And I don't really know what to make of any of it. I'm sitting at thirty something views online for what I've worked on so far, the numbers aren't really growing, and no one's saying much.
> 
> Maybe it's just the whole being broke and alone in a strange country thing that's getting to me. Wanting the one thing I actually care about and find enjoyment and purpose in to actually be good. Or, at least, become something good. Just a bit of a vent on that topic, I guess.


Yeah - I get it. Writing a book, or doing any sort of art, we lay our soul out to be attacked and pecked at by those who don't have to courage to do what we have done. The thing is though... what would the world be without those willing to try? A silent and dark place, and without your comedy, it would be a world without smiles.

Tastes vary. We can't please everyone, so it's foolish to even try. Write for yourself first. Create stories for your own amusement and edification, write the books you wish you could find; you never know, someone out there is probably waiting, wanting to read a story such as you will write. Don't write for fame and fortune; if those things come that's great, otherwise you'll you'll still benefit by stretching your soul and reaching out into the darkness - we never know what we'll find there, it could be great... or not, but just the act of stretching ourselves by creating a story leads us toward self actualization.

Keep going. Keep writing. The more you do it, the easier it becomes.


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## Kent_Jacobs

Am I ever going to be able to reconcile my horror voice with my fantasy voice, or is it always going to bother me?


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## PrairieHostage

Truly appreciate this thread. We wouldn't be writers if we didn't have doubts and insecurities! It's astonishing how quickly I can go from proud and gratified (after a good beta read) to insecure and doubtful after querying my 15th agent


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## Parabola

Third book will have a dark twist on "pomp and circumstance."


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## Parabola

Does the aesthetic of self-loathing ever really go out of style?


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## C.K.Johnson

I’m soooo excited about my new book. I was in a real slump after finishing book 5, querying with no response, and no new story idea I loved until a couple of days ago. Now I’m halfway through chapter 5, 8000+ words. You know it’s a story worth writing when you go to sleep thinking about it and wake up thinking about it


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## Parabola

Just came across the "Individuum est ineffabile" interesting enough anyway (not that I agree necessarily, but I like absorbing perspectives).


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## Parabola

Seems like I put an emphasis on the _social world_ when I write something, in other words focusing on a specific social atmosphere--mood etc. Although the lens is still individual.


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## Quelhallow

My inner critic has become an outer critic. It perches on my shoulder and reads what I write. "That is pure shit," it often whispers in my ear. "Now that is certainly pompous. You sure like talking down to your readers, don't you? Oh, that's right. What readers? You don't seem to finish anything."

Drinking helps.


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## indianroads

Quelhallow said:


> My inner critic has become an outer critic. It perches on my shoulder and reads what I write. "That is pure shit," it often whispers in my ear. "Now that is certainly pompous. You sure like talking down to your readers, don't you? Oh, that's right. What readers? You don't seem to finish anything."
> 
> Drinking helps.


Your early drafts don’t have to be perfect. Just toss the story down on paper; sure, it’s ugly, but you can then go back and pretty it up.


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## Parabola

indianroads said:


> Your early drafts don’t have to be perfect. Just toss the story down on paper; sure, it’s ugly, but you can then go back and pretty it up.



Yeah, and an "ugly" story develops character along the way. Beautiful on the inside/it has a "wonderful personality."


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## Envy123

I heard of the I Write Like tool, so I put some snippets of text from my story. I consistently get Cory Doctorow. Read some of his excerpts and yeah, pretty similar style.


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## Taylor

Envy123 said:


> I heard of the I Write Like tool, so I put some snippets of text from my story. I consistently get Cory Doctorow. Read some of his excerpts and yeah, pretty similar style.


Too funny!  I got the same thing. I guess we have the same style.  Or Cory is using it as a way to get exposure.  LOL!   It worked ... his stuff looked interesting.


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## Matchu

I get ‘rage’ about ‘writers’ or writers - with  all of the time in the world to write.  I envy the time - & s’pose mine will come.

Not all writers are retired people, or suffer mental health conditions ie therefore ‘are writers’.


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## Parabola

Matchu said:


> I get ‘rage’ about ‘writers’ or writers - with  all of the time in the world to write.  I envy the time - & s’pose *mine will come.*
> 
> Not all writers are retired people, or suffer mental health conditions ie therefore ‘are writers’.



Yes, one day you will TRULY HAVE THE LAST LAUGH!!


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## Matchu

I actually appreciate the elderly lifestyle.  It is more of an issue with the objectionable avatars and also people writing about how tired they are feeding the dog on the ranch.  That wasn’t my original point but I forgot it.


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## indianroads

Retired guy here. I actually sacrificed a lot during my career so I could retire early, which I did at 51 years of age. If some think it was an easy road or that I'm somehow lucky, think again. I sacrificed a lot, and if I had a do over I wouldn't make the same choices. Those decisions were made though, for good and bad, and I'm living the result.

So, yeah, I have time to write and ride around on my motorcycle - but I paid dearly for that privilege.


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## Matchu

I am only ‘fooling around.’

But more seriously, suppose I should analyse mindset a little more? And maybe I should ‘act my age?’  I noticed, or maybe not, with the latest influx of trainees how alien I did appear…to them .

when guys talk about ‘retiring at 51’ I cannot quite work that out at all.  My Dad’s generation had this ‘retire at 40’ thing but that was meaningless IT crowd 1980s?

…community, being involved, bills & children. God damn I should have fixed the mortgage at 18, you stiffs x?

My colleague who is 65 ‘needs’ to come to work 4 days a week, he says  - ‘ for structure & health….’


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## indianroads

Somewhere I heard a phrase about reaching through a wall of flame to grasp what you desire. It's a good analogy, because the sacrifice was extreme. 20 hour days (engineer in silicon valley 1974-2006) - I took weekends off to be with my family, but was too tired to do anything. The cost was extreme, and I would never suggest such a path to others, but I trod it and am determined to reap the rewards.


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## Cornelius Coburn

Deleted


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## Cephus

indianroads said:


> Retired guy here. I actually sacrificed a lot during my career so I could retire early, which I did at 51 years of age. If some think it was an easy road or that I'm somehow lucky, think again. I sacrificed a lot, and if I had a do over I wouldn't make the same choices. Those decisions were made though, for good and bad, and I'm living the result.
> 
> So, yeah, I have time to write and ride around on my motorcycle - but I paid dearly for that privilege.


Same here. Not retired quite yet, although I could be if I really wanted. I've also been writing since I was a kid, so this isn't something that old people do, it's something that takes a lifetime of hard work and sacrifice to get good at it.


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## Taylor

Cephus said:


> I've also been writing since I was a kid, so this isn't something that old people do, it's something that takes a lifetime of hard work and sacrifice to get good at it.



I'm happy for you that you are a good writer and that your sacrifices have paid off!

However, I don't think you can generalize about "old people".  I don't know this for a fact, but I bet there are seniors who are applying their life experiences to writing in retirement and producing some damn good stuff.    Some people are just good at everything they touch!

Edit:  It has been pointed out to me that I may have misunderstood you.  If that is the case, I apologize.


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## indianroads

Taylor said:


> I'm happy for you that you are a good writer and that your sacrifices have paid off!
> 
> However, I don't think you can generalize about "old people".  I don't know this for a fact, but I bet there are seniors who are applying their life experiences to writing in retirement and producing some damn good stuff.    Some people are just good at everything they touch!


Age grants experience. How can anyone write about love, or loss, or heartache without encountering them in life?  A little off color, but does anyone recall seeing a movie called, 40 year old virgin? The main character believes a woman’s breast feels like a bag of sand. Yeah, life experience is like that.


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## Taylor

indianroads said:


> Age grants experience. How can anyone write about love, or loss, or heartache without encountering them in life?


So true!  And let's not forget about education, knowledge, success, worldliness, and wisdom.


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## Ultraroel

A this point in time, I am still thinking about how I want to end my first long story. It's a fantasy story and not many fantasy stories that I read, have endings that I find satisfying. Especially not the big EPIC stories that take books to tell.  How does one end something like an anti-hero arc, where the MC turns out to be a villain, just like the people she's fighting? How do you make this a satisfying, or at least acceptable. It's a tough conundrum, cause the personal development of this character is great and I love the idea.. But do I really want to end the story with a cruel, selfish individual that slaughters people in a happy end?

For now, I am exploring the idea where the only friend she's had betrays her and chooses his own damnation (by killing) and saving a lot of innocent people from her rage and wrath. I want people to understand my MC, to follow her personal development and then be horrified by her choices, but still enthralled with her as a character. Then I want them to see that the ending is justified, perhaps tragic. 

 I've read too many fantasy stories where the ending is a bit lame and before I never understood why.. But how does one end a story with lots of power, magic and battles in a satisfying way. Most people I asked, said that redemption of the MC would be the best way to go, but I feel redemption is no longer an option.. choices choices choices


----------



## charles003434

rosa220 said:


> You know, like Facebook? But instead, it's AWbook...lol
> 
> Anyway, I thought I would start a thread like that since I haven't seen one. If there is one, you can move this then.
> 
> What's on my mind about my writing? Well, a lot. I can't seem to stop thinking about writing. Sometimes it sucks thinking about it so much and writing too on top of it! ha!
> 
> Anyway, I'm writing my 5th novel right now. It's my third YA book. My first two are with my agent, which she's been great about. I was blessed to find one to represent both of my YAs. So I figured to write another while I wait on my submissions. I'm up to 38K words and nearing the end. I'm hoping to get it up to 50 but I feel like I barely have 10 left in me. I wrote an outline which is helping too but I feel like I'm crawling to write out the rest of it now.
> 
> Usually, I write out 2,000 words a day, but lately, it's barely 500. It seems like I can only do 500 in a sitting and then I get antsy to read it and look back on it. Like I said, I have an outline, and notes and I'm up to the 19th chapter, but I feel like I am forgetting what I write, it's nuts. Then the rest of the time, when I'm not writing, I friggin' thinking about writing. Like I said, it sucks. It's this vicious circle. And I know it won't stop till the novel is actually done, which could be a couple more months.
> 
> Anyway, your turn...
> 
> What's on your mind about your writing?


I have been thinking about how to make villians cool.


----------



## indianroads

charles003434 said:


> I have been thinking about how to make villians cool.


Make your villain your main character.


----------



## Envy123

I write rather concisely, with similar pacing to a TV show. Would be interesting to get feedback during the beta reading stage, after I finish my draft.


----------



## Megan Pearson

chrismhayes1980 said:


> The one thing I really really hate about my writing, is I have this real life troll of a gremlin that's a roommate of mine that's been a good friend for about the last 9 years.
> 
> However sometimes I'll sit there writing out quite a bit of a chapter or maybe even three or four scenes and get up to go do something setting my tablet down or leaving my computer open, don't get me wrong it never irritates me about that because there's nothing on any of it to hide but he'll be reading through it and yeah I know I have to take whatever he says with a grain of salt, but last night I actually wrote a sequence that I thought humanized my MC and he told me he lost all faith in him and can never look at him as more then a sidekick or comic relief now. Totally shaking my confidence and stopping me from writing now.


Have you ever tried to tell him to 'take a hike' while you're writing? It's not up to him to approve or disapprove of your writing unless you have invited him to do so and have sought out his feedback. It might take some doing at first but setting up a boundary there will give both of you some peace of mind going forward.


----------



## Parabola

Matchu said:


> I actually appreciate the elderly lifestyle.  It is more of an issue with the objectionable avatars and also people writing about how tired they are feeding the dog on the ranch.  That wasn’t my original point but I forgot it.



And who the fuck wouldn't want the ranch life? It sounds incredible, almost historical fiction-y.


----------



## Megan Pearson

rosa220 said:


> What's on your mind about your writing?


Intimidated? Excited? I'm not sure. I find it best not to navel-gaze too much about my views on my own writing. I find such inward self-appraisal--at least for myself--leads to too much stress. Sadly, it remains a love-hate relationship. Too much indoctrination into the cultural narrative that says, unless it is something socially productive and esteemed (like, say, business, or accounting), it probably isn't worthwhile to pursue. (Get back, foul thoughts, get back!)

Other than that, as of last Thursday, I am embarking on a first: writing and job search. Job search isn't going well, _yet_ (haven't started). But the writing has a lot of potential. Decided to keep all of my back-burner projects on the back-burner and celebrate the end of eight years of graduate education with a new endeavor. As of today, I have a basic plot in place, a setting in mind, a cast to name and fill, and have already begun the research I will need to gain familiarity with some plot-essential elements. And as of yesterday, I think I've identified my MC. If I can pull this off, it will be a very fun read. Its speed of accomplishment will, of course, be hemmed in by the demands of whatever job I can land.


----------



## Taylor

Megan Pearson said:


> Intimidated? Excited? I'm not sure. I find it best not to navel-gaze too much about my views on my own writing. I find such inward self-appraisal--at least for myself--leads to too much stress. Sadly, it remains a love-hate relationship. Too much indoctrination into the cultural narrative that says, unless it is something socially productive and esteemed (like, say, business, or accounting), it probably isn't worthwhile to pursue. (Get back, foul thoughts, get back!)


Can totally relate!   In my case, I had to choose the "socially productive,"  but if I could do it all over again, I would consider going the other way. 



Megan Pearson said:


> Other than that, as of last Thursday, I am embarking on a first: writing and job search. Job search isn't going well, _yet_ (haven't started). But the writing has a lot of potential. Decided to keep all of my back-burner projects on the back-burner and celebrate the end of eight years of graduate education with a new endeavor.


Congratulations!  That is quite an accomplishment!!    I look forward to hearing more about your job search ... so exciting.



Megan Pearson said:


> As of today, I have a basic plot in place, a setting in mind, a cast to name and fill, and have already begun the research I will need to gain familiarity with some plot-essential elements. And as of yesterday, I think I've identified my MC. If I can pull this off, it will be a very fun read. Its speed of accomplishment will, of course, be hemmed in by the demands of whatever job I can land.


Accounting, although lucrative, can be a real brain/time drain.  If I were to pursue a job in business/accounting and write in my spare time, I would choose something narrow, that ends at the end of the day.  Not anything involving financial statements or sales of financial products.  If you need a sounding board, send me a PM.  I've mentored a lot of business students over the years.


----------



## chrismhayes1980

Megan Pearson said:


> Have you ever tried to tell him to 'take a hike' while you're writing? It's not up to him to approve or disapprove of your writing unless you have invited him to do so and have sought out his feedback. It might take some doing at first but setting up a boundary there will give both of you some peace of mind going forward.


 
 That's another issue altogether because I don't just have a particular time frame for writing. I do this all the time. It's like theirs some  automatic switch that gets flipped and I have to put my idea into some being a note or recording of some sort. It has been that way ever since I was a teenager and I had start to explore my creative writing mind.


----------



## NajaNoir

I too, spend a lot of time thinking about writing. More so, than actually writing, I lack the drive I guess.

My thoughts lately are that I wonder why it is that I can't seem to take a story to the next level. I've never written anything longer than, twelve-thirteen pages I believe. I'd like to, but whenever I do manage to sit down and start writing, I end up with another short story in the end. I don't have the attention span for something longer, it's a shame, because I think some of my stories deserve the longer treatment.


----------



## indianroads

NajaNoir said:


> I too, spend a lot of time thinking about writing. More so, than actually writing, I lack the drive I guess.
> 
> My thoughts lately are that I wonder why it is that I can't seem to take a story to the next level. I've never written anything longer than, twelve-thirteen pages I believe. I'd like to, but whenever I do manage to sit down and start writing, I end up with another short story in the end. I don't have the attention span for something longer, it's a shame, because I think some of my stories deserve the longer treatment.


I recall the first time I rode my motorcycle across the USA. It was a daunting thing to do, but I was going through a hard time and needed so wind therapy to clear my head. I just took off from California with the general idea of visiting my cousins in New Jersey. I wasn't sure I would make it, but figured that starting out was the greatest hurtle. It was tough at first, but by the time I left Nevada behind I was committed.

The same can be said for my first published book, Dark Side of Joy. I knew the story, and one day just sat down and started writing; never really believing that I would finish it. Momentum builds though. Starting is a big deal, as is commitment to finish. There were times when it would have been easier to set it aside, but I refused to do so, and it was completed and published.


----------



## Parabola

Part of me wants to write the horror story rattling around in my brain, but the atmosphere of this particular theme (death as formality) can be simultaneously stimulating and draining. Another element that can be "tiring," is how I want to link it with anxiety. There are a few layers beyond that which lower my motivation, but I might write it in the end anyway. Or not.


----------



## Parabola

Apparently I'm in the "ideas phase" which is probably a subconscious way of diverting my attention from book 2. I'll get back to it with any luck soon, but entering into that headspace after irl stuff is a bit difficult--usually when I'm constantly coming up with ideas it feels like a method for pleasant distraction I really can't control. That said, a YA story is emerging, a bit of a dark theme truth be told and honestly I'm not familiar enough with that landscape to know how far I can go with it.

Sort of like, "dude, you can't have an eight year old go on a gritty redemption arc."

Challenge accepted.


----------



## Envy123

Usually, a few different forms of media influence my writing, but lately, it seems like Brazilian telenovelas influence it the most. But it does get a lot of content down on paper...


----------



## Parabola

Found the document I wrote over a year ago. I still like the broad concept but plan on changing significant portions of the story. Title still kinda works.


----------



## Envy123

The first few chapters of my first draft are so weak in comparison to my later ones. Truth be told, I didn't know how the actual plot would be like, until I got into the middle. I'm going to be making massive overhauls to them when the time comes.


----------



## Parabola

Back on the writing horse and aiming for usual wordcount since tomorrow will be thrown off. I'd rather write than "irl" at this point. Where's my effin' bell jar?


----------



## Parabola

Going back to juvenile nerd-dom gave me another idea for the YA thing that might not be a YA thing. An interesting shift in perspective.


----------



## indianroads

At the close of yesterday I had the plot of the first book of a two book series outlined, but last night I decided to scrap half of it because it uses a (IMO) grossly overused story trope (ancient aliens messing with early humans). The characters are still good; the story takes place in a prison so the extortionist and murderer work well, but the back end of the story is kinda flapping in the breeze, and I may end up dropping the second book entirely. It's in flux at the moment, but I may steer it toward including more about Whinter - a character from my book Inception.

So, over the next few days I'll be staring at the ceiling in my office, making notes and doodling in a note book... and my wife will occasionally stop by and say: _I thought you were writing!_ To which I will reply: _I am._


----------



## Taylor

indianroads said:


> At the close of yesterday I had the plot of the first book of a two book series outlined, but last night I decided to scrap half of it because it uses a (IMO) grossly overused story trope (ancient aliens messing with early humans). The characters are still good; the story takes place in a prison so the extortionist and murderer work well, but the back end of the story is kinda flapping in the breeze, and I may end up dropping the second book entirely. It's in flux at the moment, but I may steer it toward including more about Whinter - a character from my book Inception.
> 
> So, over the next few days I'll be staring at the ceiling in my office, making notes and doodling in a note book... and my wife will occasionally stop by and say: _I thought you were writing!_ To which I will reply: _I am._


I can totally relate ... LOL!   My vote is for more of Whinter.


----------



## indianroads

Taylor said:


> I can totally relate ... LOL!   My vote is for more of Whinter.


The story takes place 2 decades after Inception, so she'll be older, and Mike and Mel won't be in the story. The way it's showing up in my head now, Whinter will get an unusual boyfriend. Oddly, there's also a tie-in to my Extinction series.


----------



## Envy123

I stopped watching Brazilian soap operas and I lost my mojo a bit. No matter, after I finish my house move shortly, I'll continue watching them and will get my mojo back.


----------



## Explosia

I made a rookie mistake and overwrote my story, so now I'm spending the next couple of months cutting it down by thousands of words. So far, I've made cuts in Chs 1 - 6 and now I'm facing Chs 7 and 8.  Ideally, I could cut these two chapters down enough that I could possibly maybe even combine them into one... But I need to see if that'll even be possible. Not too sure it will be...


----------



## indianroads

Explosia said:


> I made a rookie mistake and overwrote my story, so now I'm spending the next couple of months cutting it down by thousands of words. So far, I've made cuts in Chs 1 - 6 and now I'm facing Chs 7 and 8.  Ideally, I could cut these two chapters down enough that I could possibly maybe even combine them into one... But I need to see if that'll even be possible. Not too sure it will be...


BTDT - GTTS (Been there, done that - Got The T Shirt.
It's tough, but sometimes we have to kill our lovelies.


----------



## Explosia

indianroads said:


> BTDT - GTTS (Been there, done that - Got The T Shirt.
> It's tough, but sometimes we have to kill our lovelies.


It's so true, although I have to say, the six-month break really does wonders for editing! I'm less attached to the work, which has made chopping it down much easier lol!

Although, the biggest hardship right now might be that I have to axe an entire chapter, simply because it's really nothing more than a character's backstory (done a la flashback)... It's such a neat chapter, though, and contextualizes so much of the character's personality. It feels like an important chapter in that sense, but it technically has no real bearing on the plot... I'm going to keep cutting to see if I can make some more room for it before making that final decision, first.


----------



## Envy123

As the beginning of my story is too darn slow, I put down notes on how to improve it once I finish the first draft.

The inciting incident in the middle of Chapter 2 will most probably be combined with my existing introduction scene (which contextualises some things in the setting). Since the classmates misbehave, it would seem fitting for the teacher to summarise the school's unique punishment system to discourage misbehaviour, after all.

I'm not sure if any scenes would be cut entirely, as they provide either conflict or a bit of information on the world, but they'll definitely have their order changed and heavily edited to take that into account.


----------



## Cephus

Did you ever have "that scene", the one that you've had in mind since you first thought of your story and you've desperately wanted to write it but you had to wait until you got there? I'm doing that right now. There's one scene that always struck out to me from the outline that I've run over in my head a dozen times, I know exactly how I want it to play out  It's that one big, cinematic, heroic, book-defining sequence and it's driving me crazy.

I get to write it tomorrow and I don't want to wait!


----------



## C.K.Johnson

Explosia said:


> It's so true, although I have to say, the six-month break really does wonders for editing! I'm less attached to the work, which has made chopping it down much easier lol!
> 
> Although, the biggest hardship right now might be that I have to axe an entire chapter, simply because it's really nothing more than a character's backstory (done a la flashback)... It's such a neat chapter, though, and contextualizes so much of the character's personality. It feels like an important chapter in that sense, but it technically has no real bearing on the plot... I'm going to keep cutting to see if I can make some more room for it before making that final decision, first.


My first three books had so much backstory! I was able to delete the first 3-4 chapters of each one and insert the important bits later. It’s difficult because you love your pretend people and you want readers to love and understand them, too. To paraphrase Tabitha King…cool, but don’t bore me with it


----------



## Explosia

C.K.Johnson said:


> My first three books had so much backstory! I was able to delete the first 3-4 chapters of each one and insert the important bits later. It’s difficult because you love your pretend people and you want readers to love and understand them, too. To paraphrase Tabitha King…cool, but don’t bore me with it


Yessss! I'm so torn because of the neat setting, the emotional build up behind the main character's motivations, and even meeting some members of the main character's family... I've even got a Chekhov's Gun type of setup in that chapter that will have a pretty badass payoff in the final climax of the story... but technically I could edit that out. Ugghhh......... I am _really_ going to see if I can try to make room for that chapter first.....!


----------



## Parabola

Book 2 is chugging along. Aside from that, contemplating side project. Not usually interested in the theme of "zen like" mysticism but watched a show that definitely inspired further thought on it.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

To seek solitude, anonymity and be at peace with my process.


----------



## Taylor

That I can't get to it right now because I am temporarily back to the 'art' of making money.


----------



## indianroads

Taylor said:


> That I can't get to it right now because I am temporarily back to the 'art' of making money.


Been there. Done that. Retired. Left it behind.


----------



## Taylor

indianroads said:


> Been there. Done that. Retired. Left it behind.


I wish I could figure out how to leave it behind.  I thought moving to a small seaside town would put me out of mind, but unfortunately, everything is done by Zoom now.


----------



## indianroads

I moved 1500 miles away, and didn't answer the phone. There are others that could design the way I did, so it wasn't hard. 16 years retired now - tech has moved on, but I haven't and am glad about that fact.


----------



## Taylor

indianroads said:


> I moved 1500 miles away, and didn't answer the phone. There are others that could design the way I did, so it wasn't hard. 16 years retired now - tech has moved on, but I haven't and am glad about that fact.


The Ministry of Finance has a strong hold on me and caters to my ego I'm afraid.


----------



## indianroads

Taylor said:


> The Ministry of Finance has a strong hold on me and caters to my ego I'm afraid.


Blessings can be a curse in disguise.


----------



## Explosia

Gonna brew me some tea and dive back into Ch 7. There's a slew of text that I might try to trim and tighten a bit more. Then it's time to tackle a quirky dialogue scene. Woooo........!


----------



## Parabola

So fleshing out one character is helping put meat on the skeleton of other plot points I wasn't sure about. I'm going to revise them somewhat, but in all honesty I'm looking forward to the alterations.


----------



## Parabola

I still want to do book 3. Not only does the environment continue to "sizzle" when I think about it, but the plot and themes are emerging too. Many of the characters go through marked development to the point where they almost shift personality types. The trick is to find a balance between those evolutions and go through the changes with an eye for detail to make sure there is a reason for the change (there's also a "world building" reason why the personalities shift so drastically).


----------



## Explosia

Got Ch 7 down to 2800 words. Hot damn! Now let's see if I can get Ch 8 down to ~2k words. Then I might be able to still keep my backstory chapter. 

While I'm thinking about it, there is one darling that I think I will have to kill. A vampire lady who has a chronic vampire-y illness. I like the concept of a vampire having to take medication so that her body can ingest blood correctly, but I don't think she's really doing much for this current story except taking up space... Perhaps she'll be able to pop up for another project. 

That said, I've created a new "Scrap" Word doc where I can drop all the good ideas in case I ever want to get back to them.


----------



## indianroads

Small points about *Moonscape*... I kinda like that title, but am not wed to it; maybe something better will come along.

I need to flesh out my ancillary characters and map out their progress through the plot. My character, Whinter, needs to have a light backstory provided early on to make her departure an the end of the book make sense.

Anu - Whinter's love interest needs more page-time, and may need to convert from his spider image (early on) in a young man a little sooner.

I need to go through the plot and map out secondary character interactions so they seem legitimate. 

There's a lot more to this writing thing than... you know... writing.


----------



## Parabola

Can't let MC's gf turn into a plot device.


----------



## Parabola

Going to have to rewrite some of the plot details going forward. Ethan's a rebellious spirit and a bit of a dumbass, so the plot has to somewhat reflect that.


----------



## C.K.Johnson

My bestie has been reading my WIP one chapter a day as I write it. We met for lunch yesterday and she said, “I’m not even going to try to guess how it ends.”
I said, “Give me some ideas, I don’t know how it ends either.”

Hashtag pantser


----------



## indianroads

46 chapters deep into Moonscape’s 2nd plot review, 4 more to go, so it should be easy to get through tomorrow. Changes are easily made during plot reviews, so I’ll comb through it at least 2 more times before starting the draft.


----------



## The Silence Between

masticating the end scene for the chapter I'm working on. This has been a very difficult chapter to write.

I've not been sleeping well, and unfortunately, it's a good sign for writing this story.


----------



## Parabola

Probably wrote close to another 1K on top of the usual 2k, but that last sprint had more to do with heavily updating the plot summary. I'm a bit more at ease going forward.


----------



## Parabola

I don't like writing when it's sunny out.


----------



## Explosia

Ch 8 is wobbling around at 3k words, but I haven't finished its edit yet. Still... it's probably going to end up in the upper 2800 word mark or somewhere around there. Ch 7 and 8 might end up together with a combined 5600 words, and the goal was for these two chapters to equal 5k words together... 

After those two chapters, I have Chs 9 - 11 that are slated for the standard 5k word count, but if I can drop any of them around to 4k, then we could be in OK shape again. So I'm gonna see what I end up. 

I've also created a spreadsheet to help me keep track of each chapter's word count lol. The end goal is 100k words MAX... And under 100k words is definitely all the better. 

All that said, Ch 8 actually turned out pretty fun, and it might be one of my fave chapters in the story so far. Plenty of dumb shenanigans going on in it.


----------



## JJBuchholz

In terms of writing, the thing most on my mind is how everything has been inconsistent this year. Inpsiration,
ideas, even timing to sit down and write an outline or jot down ideas on paper. I am ahead of my writing goals
right now, but things are happening in blocks.

I'll write like a madman for a week or two, and then I'll have nothing for a few weeks. I'll plot several new stories
in one day, then have a week of nothing going on in my mind. Something like this hasn't happened in quite
some time, and takes me back to the year in which I wrote nothing until that July, in which I cranked out ten
short stories and four novellas within two weeks.

Perhaps I just need to go with the flow and see where it takes me this time.

-JJB


----------



## Parabola

Wrote a little last night as well as in the morning since I was inspired by the recent plot revisions. Here's hoping today will be as productive.


----------



## Parabola

Completed 2K fairly early on. Shooting for more later in the day, since I'll be making up for lost time.


----------



## Tettsuo

Having a tough time getting motivated to write the second book in my series. The theme isn't as clear to me as it was in my other novels. But, I need to push! I can't keep releasing books two and three years apart. I have to shorten that window to at the very least, one release per year (more if possible). So, KNUCKLE UP BUTTERCUP!


----------



## Parabola

Cause and effect, (a focus for a world building specific reason), and consistency.


----------



## Parabola

Sometimes I write flash fiction stories where I put my characters through bizarre situations (some might say wacky), which then manifests inside the novel proper as some sort of inexplicable phobia. 

From that perspective, it's entirely possibly to be afraid of, say, rabbits or other beloved creatures.


----------



## Parabola

The plot summary is well over 3K at this point. Since I have that inserted into the WIP document itself, I have to take that into account when I check the wordcount later.


----------



## indianroads

Parabola said:


> The plot summary is well over 3K at this point. Since I have that inserted into the WIP document itself, I have to take that into account when I check the wordcount later.


I keep them as separate docs. For me, that makes translating my cryptic notes into wordy prose a lot easier.


----------



## Joker

I'm 1.8k into this, and though I really like my writing for the most part, man am I struggling with a balance between serious and humorous. Though I suppose with my MC being a combat vet, I need to do both at once - gallows humor.


----------



## Parabola

indianroads said:


> I keep them as separate docs. For me, that makes translating my cryptic notes into wordy prose a lot easier.



I used to have separate docs. At this point, I don't like having to remember to open a second file though, even though it's probably more inconvenient because I have to scroll down to find the summary in the WIP itself.


----------



## indianroads

Parabola said:


> I used to have separate docs. At this point, I don't like having to remember to open a second file though, even though it's probably more inconvenient because I have to scroll down to find the summary in the WIP itself.


That's part of the joy of art, we each work the way that's best for ourselves.


----------



## Parabola

indianroads said:


> That's part of the joy of art, we each work the way that's best for ourselves.



True dat.


----------



## Envy123

Now video games are influencing some of the scenes I've written. Including being able to fly by casting a spell from an enchanted item, but it has limited uses for a day. Books hardly influence my writing from a narrative POV, but they do influence writing descriptions and sarcastic remarks to dialogue. At least it could stand out in a crowded market, maybe.


----------



## Parabola

Is Ethan (my MC) the human equivalent of "spoiled pork"? Possibly, but I have to sort of bury my head in the sand with that one. At this juncture, I choose to think he has some redeeming moral value.


----------



## Tyrannohotep

Is there a thread for story ideas you may or may not work on sometime in the future? Because I have one. I'm already juggling two projects at the moment, so I don't feel comfortable starting a third one right now, but I wanted to share the concept nonetheless.

It's the 19th century, and our protagonist is a Native American warrior from the Great Plains fleeing an attack by the US Army. After he seeks shelter in a cave, an anomalous "glitch" in the spacetime continuum transports him all the way to the Indian subcontinent. He teams up with a local princess who is fighting the British Empire, all while hoping to get back home. Think of it as a cross between historical fiction, sci-fi, and magical realism.


----------



## Louanne Learning

Tyrannohotep said:


> It's the 19th century, and our protagonist is a Native American warrior from the Great Plains fleeing an attack by the US Army. After he seeks shelter in a cave, an anomalous "glitch" in the spacetime continuum transports him all the way to the Indian subcontinent. He teams up with a local princess who is fighting the British Empire, all while hoping to get back home. Think of it as a cross between historical fiction, sci-fi, and magical realism.


Sounds like a story I would love to read.

But does the warrior travel through time, too? Might be interesting to make him a modern-day, disillusioned Native American who finds new purpose in the 19th century fight.


----------



## Tyrannohotep

Louanne Learning said:


> Sounds like a story I would love to read.
> 
> But does the warrior travel through time, too? Might be interesting to make him a modern-day, disillusioned Native American who finds new purpose in the 19th century fight.


No, he is from the 19th century too. At least that is how I conceived it.


----------



## Envy123

I insist on working on my story every day. But if I don't have the inspiration to write a new chapter, I go back and edit existing ones. Trying to force down a scene just for the sake of it, just results in bad scenes.


----------



## Parabola

A certain type of "controlling character" usually bristles at being controlled. They don't like it? Well they're just going to have to deal with it.

These characters will try to squirm out of having this dynamic applied to them, usually by weaponizing the social environment around them/making implicit appeals to their status/privilege. Not on my watch.

Prepare to suffer and have your religion tested (mwahaha).


----------



## Parabola

Going over plot summary again. At this point, it's about refining small details. Still entertaining a few possible endings though.


----------



## Theglasshouse

I am currently thinking of investing heavily in scientific research. Book authority has a big list of books written by supposed scientists and authorities so that I can write the premise of the story in a more compact and interesting manner. Those are my plans. So, I am plotting my story with more science, I need to know what is possible right now or is on the frontier of emerging technologies. So that I can compete. I got a book on caverns. It will help me to describe. But, I am looking for such books on the subject. I recently got inspired by an old vintage science fiction book and will write a plot that is more exciting. I won't abandon the ideas I have. To get a bigger picture, I won't rely on magazines but will rely on experts. Maybe I will interview people at Stack exchange. But I need to do the reading first. For a rich sense of characterization, I have been looking everywhere. I expect this will take a while. However, it will be worth it. I think I will miss one of the submission deadlines. Because in 3 weeks is when I plan to re-haul or rework the plot with the scientific facts I find. Unfortunately, the best books that have to do with caves with interesting characterization are not on kindle unlimited. I got the cave book from their library, though.


----------



## indianroads

Today, along with bringing my motorcycle in for upgrades, I'm getting ready to start the draft of Moonscape. To do that, I have to listen internally for his voice and picture him in his surroundings - he's in court about to be sentenced to life in prison.

I'll spend a good portion of the day just staring into space, imagining and listening to things no one else can hear. No, I'm not psychotic... just a writer about to start a story.


----------



## VRanger

I've been reading early Dick Francis lately. Not only was he an English writer and @PiP and my last two collaborations are mostly set in England, but he also has a lot of material about horses, and we have horses in _our _stories. It helps ground me in the subject. Also, a lady named Mel Viles gave my wife a Dick Francis book when we met in person at a convention in the mid-80s, leading Betty to read everything Francis wrote. Incidentally, Mel (Marion) was one of my interactive fiction customers, and her side of the exchanges was so good I made two novels out of our combined stories (The Adventures of Astor, and The Adventures of Pala and Halic).

I'm finding on the one hand I could add some polish to his early novels. After all, I'm currently reading his fourth novel and I'm about to finish my 11th with 12th in process. I'm interested to see how he progressed with more experience.

However, there is much to learn in his plotting. In his third novel, very little happened in the second and third acts outside of his MC being miserable. Yet the writing was compelling. It underscores my oft-repeated advice that anything can stay in as long as it's interesting. His "nothing is happening" is interesting. One keeps reading, and his fans kept reading for decades and dozens of novels.

I keep reading, and I keep learning. And the more I write, the more I recognize to learn from what I read.


----------



## Parabola

VRanger said:


> I've been reading early Dick Francis lately. Not only was he an English writer and @PiP and my last two collaborations are mostly set in England, but he also has a lot of material about horses, and we have horses in _our _stories. It helps ground me in the subject. Also, a lady named Mel Viles gave my wife a Dick Francis book when we met in person at a convention in the mid-80s, leading Betty to read everything Francis wrote. Incidentally, Mel (Marion) was one of my interactive fiction customers, and her side of the exchanges was so good I made two novels out of our combined stories (The Adventures of Astor, and The Adventures of Pala and Halic).
> 
> I'm finding on the one hand I could add some polish to his early novels. After all, I'm currently reading his fourth novel and I'm about to finish my 11th with 12th in process. I'm interested to see how he progressed with more experience.
> 
> However, there is much to learn in his plotting. In his third novel, very little happened in the second and third acts outside of his MC being miserable. Yet the writing was compelling. It underscores my oft-repeated advice that anything can stay in as long as it's interesting. His "nothing is happening" is interesting. One keeps reading, and his fans kept reading for decades and dozens of novels.
> 
> I keep reading, and I keep learning. And the more I write, the more I recognize to learn from what I read.



Especially in his early stuff, King has multiple novel-length examples of very little happening, but on the other hand he's proven himself capable of creating brilliantly drawn protagonists/opportunities for introspection/psychological exploration. "The Long Walk" is one such example. I wanted to know more even about the antagonistic characters, and even how King described the dystopian world pulled me in. Characters that were on the periphery, like The Major, shined and added to the well-crafted illusion of it being its own world.

Of course, that was one of his early novels. Still, I tend to enjoy flawed gems even if they are obscure, or perhaps not as "polished" in the sense of plot/pacing.


----------



## Cephus

You have to remember that "The Long Walk" was written under the Bachman pseudonym, wasn't classic King. Also, having been written in the late 70s, its pacint is considerably different than what would be considered acceptable today. It was also the first book King ever wrote, preceding Carrie but published afterwards and that gives us some insight into his development over time.

I never thought it was all that great and it really only came to prominence after it was discovered that King wrote it.


----------



## Joker

Argh, I gotta beef up my outline. I like my POV, setting and characters 6k words in, but the thinness of my plot is starting to show. Back to the drawing board!


----------



## Parabola

Cephus said:


> You have to remember that "The Long Walk" was written under the Bachman pseudonym, wasn't classic King. Also, having been written in the late 70s, its pacint is considerably different than what would be considered acceptable today. It was also the first book King ever wrote, preceding Carrie but published afterwards and that gives us some insight into his development over time.



This is well-known stuff. Don't care so much about the "classic King" label, insofar as that doesn't determine what I enjoy.


----------



## Theglasshouse

Thinking of inserting a character with an obsession in my story, which I wrote as plot-centered.


----------



## Explosia

I got Ch 9 down to 4k words!!  This chapter was a bit of a slog, though. So it's definitely going to need some revisiting later... But this keeps things on track for target word counts. Next is Ch 10, which might need some restructuring.


----------



## C.K.Johnson

Now comes the sad part, I finished my book and don’t know what to write about next.


----------



## Gyt Kaliba

C.K.Johnson said:


> Now comes the sad part, I finished my book and don’t know what to write about next.


As someone with multiple half-finished first drafts, I would gladly trade you if I could, LOL. That does sound like it's own brand of sadness though.

I'm working on going back to one of those drafts tomorrow, and unfortunately my brain is already trying to think about fixing issues I know it has rather than just finishing that draft, which I know is entirely the wrong way to go about it. Really need to get my brain to chill out for a while, but such is the fun of ADD I suppose.


----------



## VRanger

Gyt Kaliba said:


> As someone with multiple half-finished first drafts, I would gladly trade you if I could, LOL. That does sound like it's own brand of sadness though.
> 
> I'm working on going back to one of those drafts tomorrow, and unfortunately my brain is already trying to think about fixing issues I know it has rather than just finishing that draft, which I know is entirely the wrong way to go about it. Really need to get my brain to chill out for a while, but such is the fun of ADD I suppose.


Do you have any you've finished, or are you like me years ago with three drafts in progress and no "The End's"?


----------



## Explosia

C.K.Johnson said:


> Now comes the sad part, I finished my book and don’t know what to write about next.


Now it's time to find a critique partner, get feedback, and begin Step 2: Editing...!


----------



## Gyt Kaliba

VRanger said:


> Do you have any you've finished, or are you like me years ago with three drafts in progress and no "The End's"?


Unfortunately the latter. I've got one novel that's literally at the halfway point, a kid's book idea that's maybe a little bit past that point, and two or three other ideas partially started as well.


----------



## VRanger

Gyt Kaliba said:


> Unfortunately the latter. I've got one novel that's literally at the halfway point, a kid's book idea that's maybe a little bit past that point, and two or three other ideas partially started as well.


Okay. The important thing now is to take the project you think is the "most finishable" (it's also good if it happens to the first one) and bear down and finish it. 

In my case, I stood at the end of Chapter 12 in my first novel for a VERY long time. I finally realized I didn't like the situation I'd ended Chapter 12 on, then nuked last couple of pages and rewrote that ending. That's all it took. A few weeks later I'd finished the novel.

You might not be looking at the same problem, but if you've stopped at a place, it's something to consider. What about that place keeps you from being eager to continue? Figure that out, fix it, and keep going.

Many writers will testify, and I will heartily, that the first finish is SOOOO important. When you do that: (1) you're now a novelist, and (2) now you _know _you can finish. There are a few confidence builders in writing, and that's one of the BIGGEST.

In my case, I finished that first novel, wrote some more, then made myself go back and complete the other two partial manuscripts, back-to-back. One turned into a 100K word novel, and one a 20K word novelette, but I finished both stories.

And in the background there, I think we all have a bit of reluctance on that first finish, because once it's finished, we have to let people read it. We worry it won't be good enough, and no one can tell us that as long as we don't have to let them read it yet. LOL But it doesn't matter how good it is (or isn't). If it needs to improve, editing and revision will fix that. But we MUST finish ... whatever it takes.


----------



## Explosia

VRanger said:


> You might not be looking at the same problem, but if you've stopped at a place, it's something to consider. What about that place keeps you from being eager to continue? Figure that out, fix it, and keep going.


I agree with this point tremendously! If you find that you're slowing down at some point, then there might be a problem with a plot element right there that's putting a wall in front of you. I've noticed a slow point in my novel just in the past couple of days, so I know I might need to do something to spice things up a little more there. 


In other news, in terms of my progress today, I've Frankenstein'd Ch 10 together, and now I get to rewrite its opener. I'm starting this chapter off with a POV shift. It's a good time for Main Character B to start freaking out over the current plot problem that is quickly getting worse, and that oughta be fun.


----------



## Taylor

VRanger said:


> And in the background there, I think we all have a bit of reluctance on that first finish, because once it's finished, we have to let people read it. We worry it won't be good enough, and no one can tell us that as long as we don't have to let them read it yet. LOL But it doesn't matter how good it is (or isn't). If it needs to improve, editing and revision will fix that. But we MUST finish ... whatever it takes.



AGREE!!!

When I first retired, I planned on taking a novel-writing course at the local university but decided to be a snowbird and spend three months in Arizona instead.  So I set out on a path of teaching myself.  I used my first novel as an exercise.   I feel incredibly blessed to have had so much great advice along the way including from many of you.  You know who you are!  Also reading other authors in a new way was a major part of the process.  A sort of de-constructive approach.  

Learning about the publication process has been fascinating.  I always wanted to publish it, even though many say ditch the first 200,000 words.  You also know who you are!  LOL!!

Soooo... I finally have my first novel to a point where I'm happy with the story.  BUT, I'm crippled with the fear of publishing.  Working my way through it now.  I just got a referral for a copywriter lawyer.  I need to hear the worst-case scenario -- then I can make a decision on how to proceed.  Also fearful of the recent issue regarding cultural sensitivity.  I hope I got my multi-cultural world correct because I don't want to offend anyone.  Although, many say, write what you want and don't care what anyone thinks.  Again ... you know who you are!! 

I am envious of those who are already published and on their way.  But I'm still on the learning curve here.  Rather than getting impatient and frustrated by the timeframe, I need to relax, continue to enjoy the process, and follow through.  

Thank you @VRanger for your unwavering encouragement to those of us still learning.


----------



## indianroads

@Taylor :
You miss every shot you don't take.
Some people will love your story, others will not. That's life, but consider the source and recall Bradbury's saying: _Those that don't build must burn_. It's easier to tear down than build up; it's easier to criticize than create. In writing and publishing a novel, we have accomplished what 90+% of the world claim they can and will do, but never actually accomplish. Don't let your fears of little people drag you down to their level.
Criticism will inevitably come, and hearing it can be hard at times, but you never know when your story will touch another person's life. So, write what you long to read but cannot find. Lift your voice, someone out there is longing to hear it.


----------



## Taylor

indianroads said:


> @Taylor :
> You miss every shot you don't take.
> Some people will love your story, others will not. That's life, but consider the source and recall Bradbury's saying: _Those that don't build must burn_. It's easier to tear down than build up; it's easier to criticize than create. In writing and publishing a novel, we have accomplished what 90+% of the world claim they can and will do, but never actually accomplish. Don't let your fears of little people drag you down to their level.
> Criticism will inevitably come, and hearing it can be hard at times, but you never know when your story will touch another person's life.


Thanks, @indianroads.  I'm forever grateful for your uplifting spirit!


indianroads said:


> So, write what you long to read but cannot find. Lift your voice, someone out there is longing to hear it.


That is exactly what I did, but now I'm worried that there is a reason that no one has written this.  LOL!!  Once I get past the fear of (or adjust for) liability, I will brace myself for the inevitable criticism.


----------



## indianroads

Taylor said:


> Thanks, @indianroads.  I'm forever grateful for your uplifting spirit!
> 
> That is exactly what I did, but now I'm worried that there is a reason that no one has written this.  LOL!!  Once I get past the fear of (or adjust for) liability, I will brace myself for the inevitable criticism.


No, I very much doubt that's true. Traditional publishers color (or colour if you insist) within the lines of what they believe will sell. It's only about profit, not about telling a unique story that will affect the reader. In a sense, it's a type of censorship (IMO). As a reader, I long for something unique that will pique my interest and possibly illuminate a point of view I never considered.
Undoubtedly, you have a disclaimer at the start of your book that will protect you from liability. I worried about being tossed into jail when I published my Outlaw series, but of course that never happened. So, as a professor once admonished a writing class I was taking, _'Quit screwing around and just tell the damned truth.' _Yeah, he was a butt-head, but in a large sense he was right. Just tell your story, people will love it or hate it no matter what you do; the important thing is to get it out there where it could touch someone's life.


----------



## Gyt Kaliba

VRanger said:


> You might not be looking at the same problem, but if you've stopped at a place, it's something to consider. What about that place keeps you from being eager to continue? Figure that out, fix it, and keep going.





Explosia said:


> I agree with this point tremendously! If you find that you're slowing down at some point, then there might be a problem with a plot element right there that's putting a wall in front of you. I've noticed a slow point in my novel just in the past couple of days, so I know I might need to do something to spice things up a little more there.


That's actually very much the problem I've run into in BOTH half-finished drafts, at least in part. The first story is mostly exactly that. It's constantly evolved in the long time that I've been working on it, to the point that some revision has already occurred on the earlier material as I realized that I needed another character to lighten things up, amongst other things. With where I'm stuck with it, I've now realized I'd written a scene where someone is let go to go prepare again when they shouldn't be (and a similar scene already exists earlier), basically creating a stopping point before heading into the endgame when it should really be full throttle forward by that point. This is the one I have the most faith in (as well as being a world taht I already have plans to revisit in follow-up stories), so it's the one I'm likely getting back to writing.

In the second half-finished story, I've run into the issue that I need to write a gun fight scene, and I don't really know much about guns or gunplay as I'm not really much for them in general. There's really no way around it happening however, at least with how the story is currently structured so...definitely kind of stuck on that one, at least for the moment. Beyond that, I've also run into the issue with how much of it works with police as a theme, and the past few years have definitely thrown into question how much I really want to touch those kinds of themes, for a multitude of reasons.


----------



## Taylor

Gyt Kaliba said:


> In the second half-finished story, I've run into the issue that I need to write a gun fight scene, and I don't really know much about guns or gunplay as I'm not really much for them in general. There's really no way around it happening however, at least with how the story is currently structured so...definitely kind of stuck on that one, at least for the moment.


I ran into a snag at about 50% complete.  It was purely a knowledge issue about journalism that I needed to research.  I made a conscious decision to allow myself the research time without having to write.  Once you just focus on learning what you need to know, you will relax and the writing will follow.  There are tons of resources online, especially on YouTube.  Also, our "Story Research" forum is a great place to get advice.  I'm certain there are members with experience in gunfight scenes. 


Gyt Kaliba said:


> Beyond that, I've also run into the issue with how much of it works with police as a theme, and the past few years have definitely thrown into question how much I really want to touch those kinds of themes, for a multitude of reasons.


Yes, as many of our recent discussions have revealed, some authors are fearful of certain subjects right now.  But I believe there will always be a large market for police themes in all forms of entertainment.  Perhaps look at your contemporaries for guidance on how to portray modern police stories.


----------



## Envy123

It would be difficult for me to find appropriate comp titles when I will eventually query. I guess the Temperance Brennan series is one inspiration as I take a few notes from its style, but mostly obscure media influenced my book (like the Chucklevision show, Brazilian soap operas and to a lesser extent the games Jak 3 and Morrowind).


----------



## indianroads

Envy123 said:


> It would be difficult for me to find appropriate comp titles when I will eventually query. I guess the Temperance Brennan series is one inspiration as I take a few notes from its style, but mostly obscure media influenced my book (like the Chucklevision show, Brazilian soap operas and to a lesser extent the games Jak 3 and Morrowind).


If you have one comparable, you can try doing an internet search - comparable titles to [whatever]. Reddit often comes up, and a lot of that is nonsense, but it's nonsense worth looking at.


----------



## Explosia

Envy123 said:


> It would be difficult for me to find appropriate comp titles when I will eventually query. I guess the Temperance Brennan series is one inspiration as I take a few notes from its style, but mostly obscure media influenced my book (like the Chucklevision show, Brazilian soap operas and to a lesser extent the games Jak 3 and Morrowind).


I've been having a tricky time trying to figure out comp titles for my work, too!  In fact, I was just in the bookstore this weekend skimming my finger across book spines to try to find one that was similar to the "vibe" of my story. I picked one out, and I've started reading it this afternoon. Still not sure if it's exactly right, though... The core plot of my story just isn't something that I see anywhere out there. My biggest fear is that everyone is going to think that the premise of my story should be for Young Adult, but this story is not meant to be YA... the main character is in his early thirties, and in the first chapter, he's gambling and sipping bourbon... definitely not YA, but the story themes I can find that seem closest to mine are only in YA titles... it's frustrating!

In fact, I think there's a weird genre gap out there. There's YA, which is basically teen fiction, and then there's adult fiction, which always just seems to be full of dark themes and topics that are so drastically serious and morose... But I'm looking for a genre that has that adventurous YA style story, with dragons and witches, talking monsters, etc., that has main characters who are in their 20s and 30s...!  For self-publishing, they call it "New Adult," but unfortunately that market category hasn't made it into the traditional publishing scope yet. Huff....


----------



## Parabola

Any bias can be explored sociologically. Don't like it, tough shit.


----------



## Envy123

indianroads said:


> If you have one comparable, you can try doing an internet search - comparable titles to [whatever]. Reddit often comes up, and a lot of that is nonsense, but it's nonsense worth looking at.



Thank you. Ill



Explosia said:


> I've been having a tricky time trying to figure out comp titles for my work, too!  In fact, I was just in the bookstore this weekend skimming my finger across book spines to try to find one that was similar to the "vibe" of my story. I picked one out, and I've started reading it this afternoon. Still not sure if it's exactly right, though... The core plot of my story just isn't something that I see anywhere out there. My biggest fear is that everyone is going to think that the premise of my story should be for Young Adult, but this story is not meant to be YA... the main character is in his early thirties, and in the first chapter, he's gambling and sipping bourbon... definitely not YA, but the story themes I can find that seem closest to mine are only in YA titles... it's frustrating!
> 
> In fact, I think there's a weird genre gap out there. There's YA, which is basically teen fiction, and then there's adult fiction, which always just seems to be full of dark themes and topics that are so drastically serious and morose... But I'm looking for a genre that has that adventurous YA style story, with dragons and witches, talking monsters, etc., that has main characters who are in their 20s and 30s...!  For self-publishing, they call it "New Adult," but unfortunately that market category hasn't made it into the traditional publishing scope yet. Huff....



I’m in a similar situation where I’m also unsure of the genre.

I like to say my book is urban fantasy, but its pacing is more similar to Gone Girl than Harry Potter. But there are moments of calm and joking too, so not entirely a thriller either?


----------



## Explosia

Envy123 said:


> I’m in a similar situation where I’m also unsure of the genre.
> 
> I like to say my book is urban fantasy, but its pacing is more similar to Gone Girl than Harry Potter. But there are moments of calm and joking too, so not entirely a thriller either?


Saaame... I have been calling mine "speculative urban fantasy" 

I don't know much about thrillers, but I think I heard they don't always have to be fast paced... don't hold me to that, though...

I would consider what kind of expectation I want a reader to have, and who I would want to read my novel. People who like fantasy? The true crime thriller crowd? People who are really into mystery stories? 

I think sometimes you have to step back and allow yourself to generalize. I recommend looking in a book store to see what kind of stories they are shelving in which sections. In my own bookstore, it seems like just about anything goes in the fantasy section as long as there's magic in it. And science fiction has anything with a combo of technology and realistic magic. So I think I can broadly consider my story to just be fantasy.


----------



## Envy123

Explosia said:


> Saaame... I have been calling mine "speculative urban fantasy"
> 
> I don't know much about thrillers, but I think I heard they don't always have to be fast paced... don't hold me to that, though...
> 
> I would consider what kind of expectation I want a reader to have, and who I would want to read my novel. People who like fantasy? The true crime thriller crowd? People who are really into mystery stories?
> 
> I think sometimes you have to step back and allow yourself to generalize. I recommend looking in a book store to see what kind of stories they are shelving in which sections. In my own bookstore, it seems like just about anything goes in the fantasy section as long as there's magic in it. And science fiction has anything with a combo of technology and realistic magic. So I think I can broadly consider my story to just be fantasy.



The pacing seems to be similar to Temperance Brennan "Conspiracy of Bones" and it seems to be classed as a "mystery". I always want the reader to be wondering about certain questions and my MC finds out the truth, through dialogue or even private diaries.

I checked the tropes for urban fantasy and it seems like I would be expected to explore my city London in greater detail. Apparently, it's not enough for it to just to be set in and around one school?

So, maybe "mystery" is a better label for my story.


----------



## indianroads

1819 words into chapter 5 of Moonscape, it's going well.
The end of this chapter marks the 10% point of the book - I consider this important because those considering the book on Amazon can download the first 10% for free, so by the end of this chapter I want the reader enticed to purchase the book and continue reading.


----------



## Parabola

After the 7th, I can hopefully go full speed ahead again on book 2 and finish what's left. Mentioned in another post I thought of another MS, so I'm torn between completing the first draft of that and holding myself to a very narrow timeline, or book 3, with a slightly less narrow timeline.


----------



## Parabola

Sometimes a "bleak" world comes to you in the blink of an eye.


----------



## Taylor

I feel like I'm getting a BA in fiction and publishing.  In the past three years since I started writing my novel, I have learned so much.  Today I got a new lesson. 

I finally spoke with a Copywrite lawyer.  He confirmed that I may have stepped into grey areas that are of concern.  He also mentioned that publishers have defamation insurance, which protects authors to a degree.  _That_ was interesting!  He recommended two top defamation lawyers in my city.  I could just start to revise my draft now, but I think I'm going to take the next step, even if just for educational purposes. 

This writing thing . . . not so easy!


----------



## Parabola

I just inserted a @Matchu -ian rabbit into my story. Will he end up being the deus ex machina? We'll see.


----------



## Parabola

Thinking about world of new project, and the characters within it. Things haven't quite snapped together yet, but this is more off-the-cuff.


----------



## Parabola

Nothing wrong with ensnaring a mindless elitist (character's perspective but not necessarily inaccurate).


----------



## Envy123

For the rest of my draft, I think I'll go back to a quickened "novelised screenplay" and then add the needed details later. As much as I like my story, I really want to go and edit already.


----------



## Explosia

Ch 10 rings in at 3700 words YEEEEEEAH. Nice,  nice, nice. It's also ended on a really heartbreaking note. The MC is thinking about family (in particular, his siblings) he hasn't spoken to in over a year and how much he misses them. 

So now, I'm going to begin the edit for Ch 11, which is going to be The Backstory chapter. It's a chapter I really hope I'll get to keep. I think it could really anchor the sorrow and shame my MC has for having left his family behind.


----------



## PrairieHostage

Taylor said:


> I feel like I'm getting a BA in fiction and publishing.  In the past three years since I started writing my novel, I have learned so much.  Today I got a new lesson.
> 
> I finally spoke with a Copywrite lawyer.  He confirmed that I may have stepped into grey areas that are of concern.  He also mentioned that publishers have defamation insurance, which protects authors to a degree.  _That_ was interesting!  He recommended two top defamation lawyers in my city.  I could just start to revise my draft now, but I think I'm going to take the next step, even if just for educational purposes.
> 
> This writing thing . . . not so easy!


Will consulting those defamation lawyers be costly? Hope you can email them and get a free reply.


----------



## PrairieHostage

What's on my mind about writing? Well. Today I read more in a book by the author I'm workshopping with in a few weeks. I'm more than a little bummed my story has such similarities. He published in 2017 and I wrote first draft in 2012 ... So I can't be accused of plagiarism ... but still, I don't like it.

My MC: 15 year old of Chilean descent whose great grandfather communicates to him through his leather journal.
Pablo's MC: 13 year old boy comes from Cuban emigrees and his grandpa left him letters about love.
My guy is fighting to save his vineyard and Pablo's is fighting to save his abuela's restaurant.
My guy falls in love with Carmel.
Pablo's girl is Carmen.

COME ON!!! My one saving grace is I'm YA with strong crossover to adult fiction whereas his book is firmly middle grade genre. I've also got more adult themes in the way of family drama. I'm going to give some thought to how I'd pitch my story (as compared to Pablo's). I think that will give me some peace of mind.


----------



## Taylor

PrairieHostage said:


> Will consulting those defamation lawyers be costly? Hope you can email them and get a free reply.


Yes, I have.  The first consultation is free.


----------



## Explosia

PrairieHostage said:


> What's on my mind about writing? Well. Today I read more in a book by the author I'm workshopping with in a few weeks. I'm more than a little bummed my story has such similarities. He published in 2017 and I wrote first draft in 2012 ... So I can't be accused of plagiarism ... but still, I don't like it.
> 
> My MC: 15 year old of Chilean descent whose great grandfather communicates to him through his leather journal.
> Pablo's MC: 13 year old boy comes from Cuban emigrees and his grandpa left him letters about love.
> My guy is fighting to save his vineyard and Pablo's is fighting to save his abuela's restaurant.
> My guy falls in love with Carmel.
> Pablo's girl is Carmen.
> 
> COME ON!!! My one saving grace is I'm YA with strong crossover to adult fiction whereas his book is firmly middle grade genre. I've also got more adult themes in the way of family drama. I'm going to give some thought to how I'd pitch my story (as compared to Pablo's). I think that will give me some peace of mind.


As they say, there are no original ideas. Follow your best instincts of course! But when it comes to similar ideas, it's all about the execution and the writer's voice. 

It sounds like you two would be pitching in different markets. So this could really just mean that middle grade as well as young adults get to each experience a story that is more tailored to their tastes in terms of level of maturity.


----------



## Taylor

PrairieHostage said:


> What's on my mind about writing? Well. Today I read more in a book by the author I'm workshopping with in a few weeks. I'm more than a little bummed my story has such similarities. He published in 2017 and I wrote first draft in 2012 ... So I can't be accused of plagiarism ... but still, I don't like it.
> 
> My MC: 15 year old of Chilean descent whose great grandfather communicates to him through his leather journal.
> Pablo's MC: 13 year old boy comes from Cuban emigrees and his grandpa left him letters about love.
> My guy is fighting to save his vineyard and Pablo's is fighting to save his abuela's restaurant.
> My guy falls in love with Carmel.
> Pablo's girl is Carmen.
> 
> COME ON!!! My one saving grace is I'm YA with strong crossover to adult fiction whereas his book is firmly middle grade genre. I've also got more adult themes in the way of family drama. I'm going to give some thought to how I'd pitch my story (as compared to Pablo's). I think that will give me some peace of mind.


It's quite different!   Similar theme, but different heritage, different industries.  Letters vs. a journal.  And a different story and voice of course.  It's all in your perspective.


----------



## Parabola

Maybe not right away, but I WILL include a character named "Endless Doughnuts" Horrigan.


----------



## indianroads

What's on my mind about my writing is a bit convoluted.
I should mow the lawn, but... we have 1.5 or so acres (we're out on the prairie) and it's only 9:30am and it's already 85 F out there... so I don't wanna mow it... but I probably will. That activity will probably wear me out and I won't get much (if any) writing done today.

ETA: Got it done.


----------



## Taylor

I feel like the protagonist in my own real-life story.  I've come up against a challenge that I must overcome for the story to have a happy ending.


----------



## Envy123

Parabola said:


> Maybe not right away, but I WILL include a character named "Endless Doughnuts" Horrigan.


Speaking of Endless Doughnuts, that can be attributed to my character Bart. He found the secret of the "super secret doughnuts" in the food storage and ate so many... and then argued with pretty much everyone.

My personal thoughts - I put in a eureka moment to do rising action because I think there's only 2 chapters left in me for the first book.


----------



## indianroads

Taylor said:


> I feel like the protagonist in my own real-life story.  I've come up against a challenge that I must overcome for the story to have a happy ending.


You can do it, just keep moving forward.


----------



## Theglasshouse

Gyt Kaliba said:


> That's actually very much the problem I've run into in BOTH half-finished drafts, at least in part. The first story is mostly exactly that. It's constantly evolved in the long time that I've been working on it, to the point that some revision has already occurred on the earlier material as I realized that I needed another character to lighten things up, amongst other things. With where I'm stuck with it, I've now realized I'd written a scene where someone is let go to go prepare again when they shouldn't be (and a similar scene already exists earlier), basically creating a stopping point before heading into the endgame when it should really be full throttle forward by that point. This is the one I have the most faith in (as well as being a world taht I already have plans to revisit in follow-up stories), so it's the one I'm likely getting back to writing.
> 
> In the second half-finished story, I've run into the issue that I need to write a gun fight scene, and I don't really know much about guns or gunplay as I'm not really much for them in general. There's really no way around it happening however, at least with how the story is currently structured so...definitely kind of stuck on that one, at least for the moment. Beyond that, I've also run into the issue with how much of it works with police as a theme, and the past few years have definitely thrown into question how much I really want to touch those kinds of themes, for a multitude of reasons.


I have run into similar issues in that I procrastinate a half-finished draft. I think this is one of the "issues" you mention here. I don't know if I have add but was diagnosed when young. Nowadays I think it is just autism spectrum disorder and my other diagnosis. So I take breaks or I would be too tired and maybe overwhelmed from all the work I'd need to do.


----------



## Taylor

indianroads said:


> You can do it, just keep moving forward.


Thanks for your belief in me @indianroads.  As you say, I am taking steps to push it along.  I have come up against challenges before and one thing I have learned is to have faith in myself, relax and enjoy the process.   My mantra for now:

“It does not matter how slowly you go as long as you do not stop.”
― Confucius


----------



## Gyt Kaliba

Theglasshouse said:


> I have run into similar issues in that I procrastinate a half-finished draft. I think this is one of the "issues" you mention here. I don't know if I have add but was diagnosed when young. Nowadays I think it is just autism spectrum disorder and my other diagnosis. So I take breaks or I would be too tired and maybe overwhelmed from all the work I'd need to do.


I've often wondered if I might not be on the spectrum myself. As far as I know, I was never tested, and I'm just old enough (I'll be turning 33 in a few months) that back when I was a kid, they seemed to just rule you as 'normal', 'ADD', or 'retarded', no nuance given beyond that. I've read some of the symptoms associated with being on the autism spectrum online before, and it was one of those 'wow, that sure sounds a lot like me' moments...but I'm also well aware of how 'Googling symptoms' goes sometimes too.


----------



## Theglasshouse

I am not a doctor, but when they diagnosed me they asked a lot of questions to me such as if I made bets against myself, or whether I repeated certain behaviors. I don't know if my mother got this right, but I couldn't talk until much later (She said when I was 3 years of age). When I was younger than that, I'd like to collect things. I would withdraw socially from the other kids. When I was 12 and older, the same thing happened. They actually sent me to a psychologist for that, but he wasn't a good one. He thought it was social anxiety. I would take medicine for it. Later on when I was around 25-30, I would have two tentative diagnoses. One was Asperger or what some call autism spectrum disorder. Then my other diagnosis was tentative until I turned 35-36. That's when one of the country's best doctors said I have a type of schizophrenia that isn't the last stage (schizoaffective disorder). Social interaction is important in life. So much that they sent me to therapy. They thought I needed to say hello to people. It was that sort of therapy. I admit that social interaction is paramount in all stages of life. I obsess over writing. That experience came out of some emotional turmoil. Someone said I wouldn't amount to much by the way I would write. I got depressed that time. Eventually, that's what made my situation worse from 25 to 30 years of age if I had to guess. They ask a lot of questions about how one develops when a child to a teenager. What behaviors they have. I won't go off-topic again in this thread. I just wanted to express myself is all and maybe feel better because of it. The add diagnosis came when I was 7-10 years old. They said I wouldn't follow the teacher's directions. But my parents know what they mean by that. I wouldn't pay attention in class sometimes to what the teacher was saying. However, I read at age 6-7 and first than my oldest brother who is 2 years older than me according again to my mother. But then I don't remember childhood as much as I'd wanted. I had one very close friend all the time . But it was difficult to make friends with other people especially if another culture.


----------



## Parabola

I thought of a "joke" the other day, and it occurred to me it could be its own world. Back of my head, thought nothing of it. Then read something "genre-y" (don't ask me what, and it was sort of random). Something flowed out of me (and not little stones in my urine either), this morning. Over 1.5K. Not sure if it'll stick, but it gave me a peculiar feeling while writing it. 

We'll see. Inspiration is fleeting for me these days.


----------



## Parabola

Book 1: done. Book 2: almost done. Book 3...pie in the sky. Elusive.


----------



## Gyt Kaliba

A week later than I'd originally planned, but I'm finally looking back through what I've written for one of my stories, so that I can get back in the same headspace I was as I wrote it before and can hopefully finish it's first draft at last. Feels good to be getting back to the grind, even if the lazy part of me keeps trying to make me think about other things I could be doing too.


----------



## roadscribe

My current issue is my "analysis paralysis" which I was a victim of in my former life. It seems to be creeping back in, and all I can think of is my subconscious is telling me something, maybe to reduce the plotter mentality a little and increase the pantser I have in me. It's the conflict of knowing when research becomes too consuming. Interesting thread, thanks for all the shares, guys.


----------



## Explosia

Ch 11 prior to editing is 11k words. I have to cut this dang thing down to less than half its size lmao.  Considering what I've been able to do with all prior chapters, I know it can be done! Might require a scene to be cut, maybe. Right now, I'm going through it and highlighting all the interesting prose and darkening all the excess stuff that I'll definitely be cutting. I've already rearranged some descriptions to weave them in between lines of dialogue. I'm liking that development so far.

In other news, the book I picked up and started reading as a possible comp title... I can't put it down! LOL!  I'm glad I picked it up, because I've enjoyed reading it.  I might try to figure out a way to claim this thing as a comp title _somehow_ just because.


----------



## C.K.Johnson

Explosia said:


> Ch 11 prior to editing is 11k words. I have to cut this dang thing down to less than half its size lmao.  Considering what I've been able to do with all prior chapters, I know it can be done! Might require a scene to be cut, maybe. Right now, I'm going through it and highlighting all the interesting prose and darkening all the excess stuff that I'll definitely be cutting. I've already rearranged some descriptions to weave them in between lines of dialogue. I'm liking that development so far.
> 
> In other news, the book I picked up and started reading as a possible comp title... I can't put it down! LOL!  I'm glad I picked it up, because I've enjoyed reading it.  I might try to figure out a way to claim this thing as a comp title _somehow_ just because.


Ugh, comps are the worst! I read a LOT and still have trouble with comps.


----------



## Theglasshouse

I consulted narration in my books on composition. Looks like I was doing something wrong. Right now resting. Trying not to do too much at once. My piece hasn't gotten rejected easily by some places. I hope my short story workshopped here gets published. It's the first one in my link. That's the second thing on my mind concerning writing. I also use kindle unlimited to read up. Which are a fun and inexpensive way to buy books. I used to buy books. I no longer do. Unless it is something special. I might get a member's book from this website from kindle unlimited. I've been meaning to read it and write a proper review.


----------



## Explosia

C.K.Johnson said:


> Ugh, comps are the worst! I read a LOT and still have trouble with comps.


It's so funny and weird to me, because it's like "I have to come up with a unique story...! But not _too_ unique!!" 

Yeah, I'll still have to keep combing through the bookshelves for more options, probably.


----------



## C.K.Johnson

Theglasshouse said:


> I consulted narration in my books on composition. Looks like I was doing something wrong. Right now resting. Trying not to do too much at once. My piece hasn't gotten rejected easily by some places. I hope my short story workshopped here gets published. It's the first one in my link. That's the second thing on my mind concerning writing. I also use kindle unlimited to read up. Which are a fun and inexpensive way to buy books. I used to buy books. I no longer do. Unless it is something special. I might get a member's book from this website from kindle unlimited. I've been meaning to read it and write a proper review.


I check out books from the library. The only issue I have with retirement is this dadratted money shortage


----------



## Theglasshouse

Kindle Unlimited lets you take up to 20 books a month for just ten dollars and you can highlight all you want up to the export limit. I wish I could go to a library, but they don't lend books in the country I am from which makes no sense. You need to be from an institution in order to do so which makes little sense. But then our democratic government never has had a good presidential candidate. At least not up to the standards of other countries.


----------



## C.K.Johnson

Theglasshouse said:


> Kindle Unlimited lets you take up to 20 books a month for just ten dollars and you can highlight all you want up to the export limit. I wish I could go to a library, but they don't lend books in the country I am from which makes no sense. You need to be from an institution in order to do so which makes little sense. But then our democratic government never has had a good presidential candidate. At least not up to the standards of other countries.


I can’t imagine life without a library


----------



## Theglasshouse

Indeed. I wish I could read some expensive books considered classics such as peter s beagle's the unicorn. Libraries have them.


----------



## Parabola

This work is more of a vacation from my other stuff. I guess in some ways it lets me be "wild and crazy" so to speak. I'm not really expecting anything from it, so there's that.


----------



## Theglasshouse

I'm thinking we need to put something at stake in every segment of a story if there is a scene break. I recently added stakes which are shown in the story's dialogue. That way we can keep the story's conflict and pace moving. This could be a big task that takes hours away from other things you do if you wrote a novel recently. That is characters that want something from someone else in the dialogue which could be workable to do.


----------



## Parabola

Is Ethan completely irredeemable or maybe just a garden variety asshole? I get to ponder that while I'm writing something else.


----------



## Envy123

Finally wrote a full draft of a Laughing Matters story, which I wasn't able to for over 2 decades. Was an interesting process of trying to salvage old material from my childhood and write a whole new story using the same premise and characters.

Now to edit and I know that "white room syndrome" is a massive issue. I'll amp up my reading and see how I can fill in the details without being overbearing.


----------



## Chrysandra1791

Well, like you, there's a lot on my mind when it comes to writing. The biggest challenge for me is how to verbalize those thoughts, concepts and ideas in a way that people can understand and relate to. That's why writing is both the easiest and hardest thing to do-anyone and everyone can write down their thoughts on paper, but it takes a special type of skill to verbalize and materialize those thoughts in a way that is artistic, poetic, and have such a melodic, harmonious flow to them. That is what a true professional writer is.


----------



## Parabola

Currently, I'm mining Ethan's story to make sure I have the details right.


----------



## Llyralen

I am writing a story based on a dream and the story is set it up for a twist.. but I didn’t ever dream the actual twist.

Are you guys interested in twists?  I usually am not. I think when done badly you get every M. Night Shyamalon movie since Sixth Sense. I hold myself to the following standards: 1st twists need to be the cherry on top. It’s got to be a good story without it.  2nd I think the twist should always lay there in plain view the whole time for the taking, but nobody realized it was key. This way it’s interesting on a re-read.

I’ve now brainstormed my possible twists, but I still don’t know if they are worthy, and I won’t put it in if it isnt up to criteria.  The beginning that I dreamed set a twist up so strongly!  And I wrote it in strongly. The hook is great!  It’s hooked me this whole time, but you’re waiting for that twist!  That can’t be good!  Sure to disappoint in that case!  I think the hook is just as strong without foreshadowing a twist.

I think by writing this out I’m deciding 
1. Get rid of the language that sets a twist up. 
2. the theme that motives are frustratingly unknowable yet have compelling consequences for relatable characters needs to get stressed as the main reason someone is reading the story.

3. If I slip in one of the twists at the end then I need to be 100% sure it delivers perfectly.


----------



## Jacob Michael Peter Welch

Currently I'm collecting and editing works for an as of yet unnamed full-length poetry collection. I have played with several conceptual frameworks in the past, but I haven't even begun to think about the structure or intent of this work yet.

I have been working to shorten my pieces so that they fit neatly on a small page, so I am pretty confident that I will utilize the smallest page format availble via whichever digital format I end up going with. I have never posted on Amazon, and have only utilized The Book Patch (for printed works) and Google Play Books (for digital distribution.) My best friend pointed out that I may be limiting my potential audience by using obscure storefronts, and I have to admit that the numbers speak for themselves.

At the same time, I am quite concerned about several income limitations to which I must adhere, but I suppose that I'm putting the cart before the horse on that point.

Loosely, I would like to structure the work in a unique manner, but I am unsure exactly how that desire will manifest yet. Perhaps I will spend tomorrow outlining my intent in a more concrete way.

If you have any advice regarding the Amazon storefront, I would love to hear it. I intend to release digital only, but I am not familiar with the formats used on Amazon, and would appreciate any starting point you may be able to share.

It's safe to say that no one will be upset if I re-use pieces from my previous published works, so I think tomorrow will be spent weaving a bit of order from that particular chaotic mess. I suppose I should also start writing the essay components as well.

You know, the more I type, the more I realize that I already have a pretty good idea of what I'm looking to create.

Thanks all, I'm excited now!


----------



## indianroads

Jacob Michael Peter Welch said:


> Currently I'm collecting and editing works for an as of yet unnamed full-length poetry collection. I have played with several conceptual frameworks in the past, but I haven't even begun to think about the structure or intent of this work yet.
> 
> I have been working to shorten my works so that they fit neatly on a small page, so I am pretty confident that I will utilize the smallest page format availble via whichever digital format I end up utilizing. I have never posted on Amazon, and have only utilized The Book Patch (for printed works) and Google Play Books (for digital distribution.) My best friend pointed out that I may be limiting my potential audience by using obscure storefronts, and I have to admit that the numbers speak for themselves.
> 
> At the same time, I am quite concerned about several income limitations to which I must adhere, but I suppose that I'm putting the cart before the horse on that point.
> 
> Loosely, I would like to structure the work in a unique manner, but I am unsure exactly how that desire will manifest yet. Perhaps I will spend tomorrow outlining my intent in a more concrete way.
> 
> If you have any advice regarding the Amazon storefront, I would love to hear it. I intend to release digital only, but I am not familiar with the formats used on Amazon, and would appreciate any starting point you may be able to share.
> 
> It's safe to say that no one will be upset if I re-use pieces from my previous published works, so I think tomorrow will be spent weaving a bit of order from that particular chaotic mess. I suppose I should also start writing the essay components as well.
> 
> You know, the more I type, the more I realize that I already have a pretty good idea of what I'm looking to create.
> 
> Thanks all, I'm excited now!


I’ve published 10 novels on Amazon, a lot of others here have published there too. You can format your book yourself using Amazon’s template and even use their cover creator for the cover - although I think there’re better ways to do that with shutter stock and 123 rf. Publishing on Amazon is free, but you’ll pay for advertising.
Lots of experience here on WF, ask away.


----------



## Jacob Michael Peter Welch

indianroads said:


> I’ve published 10 novels on Amazon, a lot of others here have published there too. You can format your book yourself using Amazon’s template and even use their cover creator for the cover - although I think there’re better ways to do that with shutter stock and 123 rf. Publishing on Amazon is free, but you’ll pay for advertising.
> Lots of experience here on WF, ask away.


Thank you so much, heading there now to work out the details in a trial by error fashion. I appreciate you putting my mind at ease, as this is a rather large and difficult step that I have been subconsciosly avoiding for quite some time.


----------



## Parabola

6K done for today in Palace Intrigue (that's not the actual title). Thinking of how the rest of the plot will unfold. It's just "hanging there" in my mind's eye at the moment.


----------



## Parabola

Some characters have their day in the sun, only for it to set them on fire.


----------



## Jacob Michael Peter Welch

Parabola said:


> Some characters have their day in the sun, only for it to set them on fire.


Sometimes the burning sensation is all they need to learn a lifelong lesson.


----------



## Parabola

Sometimes I can't decide if Ethan is ENFP or ENTP.


----------



## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord

Parabola said:


> This work is more of a vacation from my other stuff. I guess in some ways it lets me be "wild and crazy" so to speak. I'm not really expecting anything from it, so there's that.


I'm writing a bit of a vacation story right now, too -- I read some of Swiss Family Robinson, and have been playing Minecraft, and I needed something relaxing so I started writing an exploring-a-new-planet story but with the Swiss Family Robinson thing where the characters always find everything they need and more. Casting a sci-fi version of my family as the characters, haha -- a completely just-for-fun story. Lots of equipment lists and naming new animals. with no real plot -- the kind of fiction I would've liked as a child but that I suspect is not very popular.


----------



## Parabola

ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord said:


> I'm writing a bit of a vacation story right now, too -- I read some of Swiss Family Robinson, and have been playing Minecraft, and I needed something relaxing so I started writing an exploring-a-new-planet story but with the Swiss Family Robinson thing where the characters always find everything they need and more. Casting a sci-fi version of my family as the characters, haha -- a completely just-for-fun story. Lots of equipment lists and naming new animals. with no real plot -- the kind of fiction I would've liked as a child but that I suspect is not very popular.



This is reminding me of a (within the last few years) Netflix series. Can't think of the name. Anyway, sounds interesting, especially the equipment lists/new animals. Always a sucker for good bestiary.


----------



## Explosia

So the Backstory Chapter is ringing in at 5900 words, and that's not great! Now that means that I have to make _decisions_, UGH........

I _could_ just let it be a long chapter since it's a "special" chapter... but then this means I need to make Ch 12 shorter. That might be tricky. Because Ch 12 is going to be a pretty pivotal chapter. I've nicknamed it the "OH FUCK" chapter, since it's supposed to be my mid-plot twist, which means... I'm pretty sure I'm gonna need the room for it.

Soo uhhhhhh...... I'm not quite sure what more I want to do with Backstory Chapter at the moment. I could maybe start edits on Ch 12 to see just how short I can get it and then decide if I can leave Ch 11 long-ish.  Not too happy about losing my 2k words' worth of wiggle room for the second half of the story, tho. :[   Ugh.


----------



## indianroads

Explosia said:


> So the Backstory Chapter is ringing in at 5900 words, and that's not great! Now that means that I have to make _decisions_, UGH........
> 
> I _could_ just let it be a long chapter since it's a "special" chapter... but then this means I need to make Ch 12 shorter. That might be tricky. Because Ch 12 is going to be a pretty pivotal chapter. I've nicknamed it the "OH FUCK" chapter, since it's supposed to be my mid-plot twist, which means... I'm pretty sure I'm gonna need the room for it.
> 
> Soo uhhhhhh...... I'm not quite sure what more I want to do with Backstory Chapter at the moment. I could maybe start edits on Ch 12 to see just how short I can get it and then decide if I can leave Ch 11 long-ish.  Not too happy about losing my 2k words' worth of wiggle room for the second half of the story, tho. :[   Ugh.


Is there a way to break it up? Maybe separate the backstory into two separate conversations?


----------



## Explosia

indianroads said:


> Is there a way to break it up? Maybe separate the backstory into two separate conversations?


It's more in the format of a "flashback" with multiple scenes, but still, that is an idea...! I could cut the chapter itself in half and have the second half appear a little later. I am going to hold on to that idea! Depending on how the second half of the story fills out, that might conceivably work...!


----------



## Envy123

I'm glad I ended the first draft at just shy of 80k words. A detail pass has the new draft at 82k and there's a birthday scene planned too.


----------



## indianroads

Thunderstorm just passed through - lightening strike near my house cut power and I lost about a half page of work. The weather still looks iffy, and I'm debating whether I should start work again.


----------



## indianroads

The storm passed, and I got back on it - and finished the chapter.


----------



## Parabola

Didn't have a good night's sleep, but I'm back at the keyboard anyway.


----------



## Envy123

I discovered Sudowrite today and it’s been a help with some scenes to make it more descriptive, with heavy rewrites of course.

While it is helpful for descriptions of places and the Titanic nightmare world, it’s not so good for other use cases like MC’s comments and clothing descriptions are downright weird.

I’m tempted to pay for it for a while to have it help me to do one last detail sweep.


----------



## Taylor

After a bit of a setback on my series with a hurdle I haven't yet been able to overcome, I have new wind in my sails today.  

My Book 2 cover draft just arrived.  WOWZA!!!  

It makes me realize I'm working on something pretty special.


----------



## Theglasshouse

I wrote some magical realism and hope it works. This is the first magic realism work I have written. I went and wrote a bunch of extended metaphors hoping to hook in readers. It's in the workshop. It's the only one with witchcraft in the title.


----------



## indianroads

Feeling discouraged today. 
I mean, what the heck am I doing? I'm a hack writer, is all the effort I put in worth it? 
No, it isn't.


----------



## Taylor

indianroads said:


> Feeling discouraged today.
> I mean, what the heck am I doing? I'm a hack writer, is all the effort I put in worth it?
> No, it isn't.


Oh, dear IR ... what's happening?!   I loved _The Last Ride_. You're a brilliant writer!     IT IS WORTH IT!!!


----------



## Theglasshouse

I believe no one knows what they are doing Indian roads. Don't think of doubting yourself. Who cares what the critics think of science fiction? Personally, I mixed my last science fiction with more genres. Magical realism is liked by critics supposedly. I am not suggesting how someone should write.

I once took a class that suggested that people write continuing their favorite novels (that sold a lot). I don't know what to think. So if yours is inspired by it you can try to pitch it. Sadly, they are after the harry potter crowd, twilight, and more that have sold the most copies. We have to read the best sellers. I won't agree with imitating the premise necessarily, but that is what the agents want. So a school for aliens could be, for example, one such example.

Have you thought of putting that you went to Standford on your biography? It worked for Le Guin, who went to Harvard. IMO you have lived a very inspired life. I may have liked the left hand of darkness, but it was a bit of a letdown as well. When reading aliens, I wish I could read them in human-like voices.


----------



## indianroads

Meh - sales are down and the Last Ride just got a 1 star rating - with no comment. I don't know what to think, other than that I should probably write the kind of stuff that's selling these days, but I'm just not interested in those stories. I write because I'm an avid reader that struggles to find interesting tales that haven't already been told a thousand times before. Naturally, I'll not get many readers, but still, it's discouraging.


----------



## Theglasshouse

It's tough because people's tastes concerning fiction vary. I think if we find a novel that sold lots of copies, maybe it might not be to our liking. Not enough, it seems to base an idea on it. According to the agent, they will listen to query letters where a novel was inspired by a best-seller. It may not be a bad idea for some of us. I admit it could be boring to write for a different crowd with such ideas. Then people who become rich by writing books can try to write what they want. The sad part is people crave cliches and want those same cliches to appear again. I haven't read Elden Ring which I think is a novel. Was that inspired by Lord of the Rings? Sword of Shannara was. Anyway, we can't make people's decisions on what to write. No one knows what they are doing. It's sitting at the computer and typing.  Some people think reversing a premise in clever ways can motivate a writer to do it. Agents don't value originally which is distasteful. There's no foolproof method for someone to like a novel without receiving feedback, and to send it to an electic and different fan base of readers that is, probably the best way to know.

Mainstream science fiction. I wonder what others call that. I know Harry Potter some fans called it mainstream.  The discouragement will come to pass. Peronally I thought Steven Speilberg's ET is brilliant and I may imitate it one day.

Recently my beggar story got good reviews. My problem is I like writing science fiction much more. What can I learn from this? People love prose and reactions of pity from characters.


----------



## Joker

I took five minutes to write out a post here about a plot problem I was having... then I figured it out myself.

Guess that's a good sign.


----------



## PiP

indianroads said:


> Feeling discouraged today.
> I mean, what the heck am I doing? I'm a hack writer, is all the effort I put in worth it?
> No, it isn't.


Stop! You are not a 'hack' writer. I've read two of your books and they are waaaaay better than most of the best-selling authors I have read ...aka wasted my money on. Your writing connected with me in a way a lot of books don't. This is not like you, Ken Maybe you need a holiday or only write for 4hrs a day instead of 6-8


----------



## Envy123

Theglasshouse said:


> Recently my beggar story got good reviews. My problem is I like writing science fiction much more. What can I learn from this? People love prose and reactions of pity from characters.



I'm in a similar situation. I like writing stories about science fiction and ethics of certain future technologies. But people have had more positive reception towards the stories that are based on my childhood ideas, including examiners and my teachers. I'm guessing it's because of more accessibility, more reactions from the characters, and putting entertainment first.


----------



## indianroads

PiP said:


> Stop! You are not a 'hack' writer. I've read two of your books and they are waaaaay better than most of the best-selling authors I have read ...aka wasted my money on. Your writing connected with me in a way a lot of books don't. This is not like you, Ken Maybe you need a holiday or only write for 4hrs a day instead of 6-8


Thanks. I needed to hear that. I write because I love to tell stories, just getting them out there is a victory, and I'll try to not define my success by the sales or the reviews. I'm back in the saddle and writing. Again, thanks!


----------



## PiP

You can certainly tell a good yarn @indianroads  Actually, you've just reminded me I should leave a review. IT's a verified purchase so should be okay.


----------



## Taylor

indianroads said:


> Meh - sales are down and the Last Ride just got a 1 star rating - with no comment. I don't know what to think, other than that I should probably write the kind of stuff that's selling these days, but I'm just not interested in those stories. I write because I'm an avid reader that struggles to find interesting tales that haven't already been told a thousand times before. Naturally, I'll not get many readers, but still, it's discouraging.


You just got a 4-star as well, and I haven't even put my rating and review in yet!


----------



## Riptide

indianroads said:


> Feeling discouraged today.
> I mean, what the heck am I doing? I'm a hack writer, is all the effort I put in worth it?
> No, it isn't.


You're allowed to feel discouraged all of a second, but now you have to get back on your horse (or motorcycle, what ever you prefer) and suck it up buttercup and realize you are an amazing writer/talent, Definitely not a hack. And you're writing some great books, that's what you're doing, and that's what you're going to keep doing as long as you have that passion.


----------



## Riptide

My writing dilemma is in the form of a secret passage in a bar. I'm thinking of a speakeasy type of entrance that people have forgotten about, but I'm struggling with the correct visual, and my writing hit a dead end until I figure it out.


----------



## indianroads

Riptide said:


> You're allowed to feel discouraged all of a second, but now you have to get back on your horse (or motorcycle, what ever you prefer) and suck it up buttercup and realize you are an amazing writer/talent, Definitely not a hack. And you're writing some great books, that's what you're doing, and that's what you're going to keep doing as long as you have that passion.


I'm back to writing again. A bit over a thousand words in so far, and I've dropped two more useless chapters out of the plot.
Thanks for the encouragement.


----------



## Explosia

I'm in the thicket of Ch 12, and it's another chapter I'm basically frankenstein-ing together. Because in actuality, I'm having to combine three chapters into one lol! Neil Gaiman wasn't kidding when he said the first draft is basically you telling yourself the story. There are so many explanatory details in these chapters that are unnecessary. Shew...

But I've just finished a scene that's basically shenanigans. And it's scenes like this that start causing me to worry about people thinking this should actually be a YA fantasy novel... I really don't want it to be, because I genuinely cannot imagine this story playing out with teenagers instead of adults... It'd be like if the main cast of Final Fantasy 7 was comprised of teens from 14 - 18, rather than the main protagonist being 21. The game itself is full of shenanigans, but teenaged protagonists just wouldn't make sense in the context of the story. On the other hand, I think teens were the main demographic that played the game when it first came out, though. So maybe that game would have counted as a YA story if it had been published as a novel in today's market instead. Idk, I'd just hate to have to age my characters down to teenagers just because the story wasn't "dark enough."


----------



## Envy123

The AI tool I used ended up being great for helping my descriptions to be better and to help with white room syndrome. I fed it the details and it helped me with adding even more, so that taste, touch and smell was there too. I rewrote the output a lot to match my story better but it was a good springboard.

However, it falls down in other areas. Massively. Storytelling is pretty cheesy at best and incoherent at worst. I’d rather rely upon my background in scriptwriting.

So, this tool would only be used for editing, pretty much like other writing tools out there like those that deal with grammar and so on.


----------



## C.K.Johnson

I’m between books and it’s making me crazy. I have a few ideas on low simmer, someday (soon I hope) one of those ideas will come to a boil and I’ll know what to write next. I’ve had this feeling before, the feeling that I’ll never write a book again, and I know it goes away. But ugh.


----------



## Riptide

C.K.Johnson said:


> I’m between books and it’s making me crazy. I have a few ideas on low simmer, someday (soon I hope) one of those ideas will come to a boil and I’ll know what to write next. I’ve had this feeling before, the feeling that I’ll never write a book again, and I know it goes away. But ugh.


Oh for sure, I get that all the time. How do you get over it? Any way in particular?

 Mine is more about I'll never finish a book again after the last one. Starting is easy. It's the finishing I struggle with.


----------



## C.K.Johnson

I keep notebooks by my usual sitting places and write down things that catch my attention while reading or watching tv. Songs, places, unusual jobs, character traits, what-ifs, if-thens. When I’m stuck, I flip through my notebooks. Sometimes I wonder…what was I smoking that day? And sometimes I find pieces of the puzzle that make a new story.


----------



## Cornelius Coburn

Deleted


----------



## Theglasshouse

Currently rewriting how the technology of the story changes the main character's personality. Also including more action verbs to create an image that doesn't seem flat. It will require a drastic rewrite. I am working in it slowly as an alternate version of the story. I am getting some input on how to address other areas of the writing. So getting feedback to understand what I did wrong in the first version.


----------



## bdcharles

Been having actual thoughts about my followup/s to _The Story of Echo_. The first one is a hundred thousand words down so it's not inconceivable that it might be kind of ... ready to review/betaread etc soon-ish? Got tidyups to do, for sure, but thanks to an exchange with the author formerly known as Az, I've clarified some stuff. Just need to commit to it, book some time in.


----------



## Parabola

Taking a couple day break, then it's back to Ethan's story, book 2. About 20k left in that one...ish. I'd really like to slide into the third book seamlessly, not sure if I'll have the energy for that tbh.


----------



## Envy123

I think that my sequel could be more marketable to fantasy fans than my first book. Not just the concepts, but the hook as well. But if I don't get interest in the first one, it's not like I could self-publish it and query the second book. The books were meant to be standalone adventures, so no issue with being confused on the readers' side. It even appeals to me more.

Or maybe it's just me being overly critical of my own work, and with revision, my first book could be more marketable.


----------



## qwuibble

My writing is a greedy engine revving high, straining at the brake of poor planning - and I just don't know how to let fly like I desperately need to. It's sexual frustration, but for writing. I have no _complete _work to show for my years of practice, albeit casual and erratic, and I suspect this has been due in large part to my weakness in planning. I don't know what about it I'm not getting, but I don't know how to apply the step-by-steps and how-to's of structuring and outlining. My Chapter Ones and firework beginnings have always fizzled out before even being realized; I never know where to go from there. I'm lost and directionless, and I don't know how to fix it. I can't keep starting new things or just vomiting ideas or impressions or scenes. I'm never able to get far enough to actually get to rewrite, which is where I truly uncover valuables, and refine, and practice any of the later stage in the process. Has anyone experienced something similar? What is or has been your solution? Has enough information been given to troubleshoot? What practical steps can I take to remedy this? If you've found any resources that have helped you in past, please direct me to them.


----------



## indianroads

qwuibble said:


> My writing is a greedy engine revving high, straining at the brake of poor planning - and I just don't know how to let fly like I desperately need to. It's sexual frustration, but for writing. I have no _complete _work to show for my years of practice, albeit casual and erratic, and I suspect this has been due in large part to my weakness in planning. I don't know what about it I'm not getting, but I don't know how to apply the step-by-steps and how-to's of structuring and outlining. My Chapter Ones and firework beginnings have always fizzled out before even being realized; I never know where to go from there. I'm lost and directionless, and I don't know how to fix it. I can't keep starting new things or just vomiting ideas or impressions or scenes. I'm never able to get far enough to actually get to rewrite, which is where I truly uncover valuables, and refine, and practice any of the later stage in the process. Has anyone experienced something similar? What is or has been your solution? Has enough information been given to troubleshoot? What practical steps can I take to remedy this? If you've found any resources that have helped you in past, please direct me to them.


Have you tried plotting the story before you start writing it?
A lot of people just start writing as you do, but if that method isn’t working for you, maybe you should try something different.


----------



## Explosia

Ch 12 edit is complete at 4600 words. 

At this time, the edited draft is resting at 52,000 words. The unedited draft by this point in the plot was roughly 105,000 words (give or take a thousand words, because I think a section of the text was a duplicate). So, thus far, I've cut roughly 53,000 words from this text. 

I just need to take a moment to absorb this feat that I've accomplished so far. That I have cut at least 50,000 words from this behemoth of a text. 

I still have a huge undertaking ahead, though. This roughly means that I've whittled the text down to 200k words. So I still have, ideally, _over_ 100k words that I need to cut lol... But it can be done... 

The point is, I've reached the halfway mark. I'm HALF DONE WITH THIS EDIT.....!!! And I say that because this is supposed to be the midpoint of the story. I've now reached the second half. And there's so much I need to think about right now for it... For starters, I'm at 52k words. Honestly? That's overshot my goal... I wanted to be at 50k words at this point in the plot. Somehow, I'm still 2k words over... But right now, I need to go through the second half of the story and honestly, I need to do some re-outlining. I need to pick out the main points of the second half and see which ones I want to keep and which ones I never really needed. Then, I need to fit it all in no more than 9 chapters at 5k words maximum each. It seems like a lot of room, but I think it'll fill up quick... 

But I'm halfway done. And, for now, that's cause enough for some celebration...!


----------



## indianroads

I love it when the news or a tech article mimics something I've written - THIS - is right out of my novel Inception.
Thank you... thank you very much.


----------



## Parabola

Thinking about diving back into Ethan's story in another day or two, roughly. I don't want to lose connection with the various story elements and the "feel" of the main character. I'd like to at least finish first draft of book 2 before summer's out. Book 3 is like a will o the wisp at this point. 

Also might write a "paragraph impression" from Eugene's point of view.


----------



## Parabola

Wrote about 1.5K in book 2. That 2+ weeks away writing on another project, not to mention a few days without writing at all, helped to rejuvenate my interest in the project. Plus, had a spontaneous burst of images/ideas that led me to bring Jason back for the finale (of book 2, not the trilogy). He was more or less the sacrificial lamb in book one, now he's back, screaming his head off and is ripe for another slaughter. Which way, though? Maybe both.


----------



## Parabola

In its own way, Ethan's story is an extremely personal one.


----------



## Parabola

Trying to dissect imagery when it's combined with other writing elements.


----------



## Parabola

“Well, sounds good to me, Mia. I’d rather us bury the hatchet than you murder me with it!”


----------



## angelmilk

I haven't written anything substantial in a while and it's making me nervous. Could writing skills slip away from you just like that? Does it stick with you once you've learned how to do it, like with taking baby steps or learning how to ride a bike? I really do miss writing creatively, I just don't know what to write. I think I need to sit around the drawing board for a bit before I can begin again.


----------



## indianroads

angelmilk said:


> I haven't written anything substantial in a while and it's making me nervous. Could writing skills slip away from you just like that? Does it stick with you once you've learned how to do it, like with taking baby steps or learning how to ride a bike? I really do miss writing creatively, I just don't know what to write. I think I need to sit around the drawing board for a bit before I can begin again.


It will come back.
I wrote several (unpublished) books in the 1980s, and didn’t start writing again until 2016 or 2017. Yeah, I was rusty, but it came back.


----------



## Lawless

angelmilk said:


> Could writing skills slip away from you just like that?



Now that you ask, I have indeed noticed they can. Around the age of 13, a friend and I made an underground newspaper for a year and a half. I wrote more than a half of the material. Much of it was crap, but the point is I had the ability to fill pages after pages with a story. A few years later, I had completely lost it and I don't know how it happened. It had to have something to do with the changes in my personality (of which I will spare you the details here).

All these years, I have written a lot, but even today I haven't regained that ability of effort- and careless flow.

Your situation seems different, though. You seem to be just out of practice. So there's every chance it will come back.



angelmilk said:


> I really do miss writing creatively, I just don't know what to write.



Maybe it's because things that were important to you in the past and inspired you to write aren't important to you anymore?

If you need an idea how to make a start getting, as it were, out of your box, how about this?








						Literary Maneuvers August 2022: Black Metal
					


Literary Maneuvers August 2022 Black Metal  Introduction Things get heavy this month, as we challenge you to write a short story based on the theme of "Black Metal".  650 words max., deadline 23:59 GMT / 18:59 EST, Sunday, 14 August If you win, you'll get a badge pinned to your profile, plus the...





					www.writingforums.com


----------



## Parabola

People don't always want to read the thinker, they want the thinker "aesthetic."


----------



## angelmilk

Lawless said:


> Maybe it's because things that were important to you in the past and inspired you to write aren't important to you anymore?
> 
> If you need an idea how to make a start getting, as it were, out of your box, how about this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Literary Maneuvers August 2022: Black Metal
> 
> 
> 
> Literary Maneuvers August 2022 Black Metal  Introduction Things get heavy this month, as we challenge you to write a short story based on the theme of "Black Metal".  650 words max., deadline 23:59 GMT / 18:59 EST, Sunday, 14 August If you win, you'll get a badge pinned to your profile, plus the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.writingforums.com



Ah thank you so much, it looks like I need to post more before I can receive the privilege in posting there unfortunately. But what you said resonates, I used to write about characters from TV shows I was obsessed with, or themes that are quite immature in hindsight. I suppose I have to shop around for a theme that I am passionate about and then just dive in.

It's weird because I DO have a few stories in my mind swimming inside my head, its just mostly in the format of a comic book or a video game/movie rather than in a traditional format, like a hardcover book form, does that make sense?

Should I just write out the stories in my head anyway and THEN make the art that comes with it in the middle of it? I know lots of authors that also illustrate their character designs, which is way cool.


----------



## Tyrannohotep

Spent all of last night hammering out a new short story that ended up being almost 2.8k long. Right now, I'm waiting for an acquaintance of mine to review and edit it before I share it anywhere. It's about an archaeologist who's sort of like a reverse Indiana Jones or Lara Croft, returning stolen artifacts to their ancient sites of origin rather than breaking in to steal them.

Funny thing is, I hatched the whole story idea after drawing the main character the day before. Pictures I draw, see, or imagine have a way of inspiring stories.


----------



## Lawless

angelmilk said:


> I used to write about characters from TV shows I was obsessed with, or themes that are quite immature in hindsight.


You felt a need to express yourself somehow, because those themes were important to you. In the meantime you have grown and now other things are important to you.

I've met people who keep talking about the exact same things they were obsessed with 10 or 20 years ago. I think that's a little weird. Like they haven't developed at all.



angelmilk said:


> I suppose I have to shop around for a theme that I am passionate about and then just dive in.


Yes, dive in and see what happens. After all, you know how to write, you just need to get back into the habit.



angelmilk said:


> I DO have a few stories in my mind swimming inside my head, its just mostly in the format of a comic book or a video game/movie rather than in a traditional format, like a hardcover book form, does that make sense?
> Should I just write out the stories in my head anyway and THEN make the art that comes with it in the middle of it?


Sure, I think it's a good idea. Creating a video game would be a hell of a lot of work. A comic book sounds fascinating, though. I used to have an awesome idea for a comic strip years ago. Too bad I can't draw.

I wrote a fanfic novel and illustrated it with actual screenshots from a game. I consider then an essential part of the story.

Anyway, feel free to ask me about anything that's on your mind.


----------



## Parabola

Still not sure how I want to approach Ethan's interaction with Joe, since that amounts to a test for him when it comes to the apocalyptic endgame. If he "traps" Joe in the gadget he uses, it's secretly programmed to initiate a version of the apocalypse that leads him to the third book (the apocalypse is only a corridor though). If he doesn't, there needs to be some other catalyst. 

Or maybe he changes and becomes less self-absorbed, yet the sabotaged apocalypse happens anyway.


----------



## Envy123

So, according to feedback, my TV style writing with added descriptions and sensory details is generally fine. I was unsure about this at first.

But my story lacks context for pretty much everything. Worldbuilding context, I mean. I didn’t give any detail on how cricket works or even mentioned the elitism within British private schools. I’ll fix this for my current draft to clarify possible confusion and to make the story even more immersive.


----------



## Parabola

I like how my main character has been with a few attractive women, gone on some power hungry rampage and manipulated reality, and he's all like "woe is me, I've not yet lived!" 

Yeah keep telling yourself that, Genghis Khan.


----------



## Parabola

Trying to find Ethan's last interaction with Sarah, so I can write their final moments with better context, in book 2 at least. This alternate reality stuff is confusing.


----------



## Foxee

Maybe my writing isn't actually dead after all, it's just been deep asleep again.


----------



## indianroads

I’m coloring outside the lines again.

Awhile back I wrote Redemption, a novel with two antagonists and no protagonists.

Today, I realized that my current WIP, Moonscape, features protagonists but no antagonists. The conflict is over a discovery and a misunderstanding.


----------



## Parabola

You can never predict if your style(s) will resonate, at least generally speaking.


----------



## Explosia

Frankensteining Ch 13 together tonight. Tomorrow will begin my Weekend of Words as I pretty much rewrite Ch 13 with all the new connective elements in it. Pretty much from here on out, every chapter's going to be cobbled together like this. Shew... I think I have a habit of writing slow-burn beginnings and then after the mid mark, I throw in all the action. idk But at least I'm making progress!

One fun thing, though, is that I get to keep the Fae clothing shop in there. That's a nice surprise!


----------



## Parabola

So, Ethan's doing it "for the lulz" basically? Or at least that's how it started.


----------



## Explosia

I want a character to say that they've sent a photo to their boss through their department's web portal, but I can't write: "I sent the photo to you through the portal." Because, since this setting has magic in it, that could be construed as the character literally opening a magic portal and shoving a photo through it.  Gonna have to find another way to phrase that, and "web portal" doesn't sound casual enough for this flavor of dialogue. Welp...!


----------



## indianroads

Explosia said:


> I want a character to say that they've sent a photo to their boss through their department's web portal, but I can't write: "I sent the photo to you through the portal." Because, since this setting has magic in it, that could be construed as the character literally opening a magic portal and shoving a photo through it.  Gonna have to find another way to phrase that, and "web portal" doesn't sound casual enough for this flavor of dialogue. Welp...!


I emailed the photo to you.


----------



## Envy123

My 9th chapter seems to be a massive speed bump. And I've been exploring a potential romance too late into the story in my newer draft. Maybe I should rewrite the rest to include the romance earlier and get rid of the boring parts.


----------



## indianroads

I'm going to shelve or maybe even trunk Moonscape. It just seems like there's no there there... you know?
Also, my dream from last night is hanging with me; dead guys shouldn't be writing books.
So I'm gonna take some time off to read, relax, and see what happens.
I'll still be around here though.


----------



## Explosia

indianroads said:


> I emailed the photo to you.


I thought about that, and it would truly be the easiest answer. But I'm wondering if there'd be security issues involved with that kind of method of file delivery. This is basically a police department type of situation, where one officer, so to speak, is sending files for a case to another. I'm being overly general here, though (technically, it's actually a detective sending a file to an inspector). But I imagine the transfer of case files would have to be done through a system that's a bit more secure than simple email, even if it's company email...

I think, honestly, if I just keep it vague at "I sent you the photo," then no one will be bothered. It's too tiny of a detail to harp on.  It is still super funny that I couldn't use the phrase I would have _because_ there is magic in this world.

That said, ah, sometimes we do need to take breaks from our work so that the Eureka juices can build back up again. Good luck with your break!


And in other news, on my quest to cut down my manuscript, it seems this has required me to combine two scenes for two of my side characters. But as things are, the beats of the plot would require that they have at least one more scene together. So now I have to cook up a new scene for those two characters! That's... kind of exciting? lol


----------



## indianroads

@Explosia 
Police networks are behind a firewall, meaning that the public can’t access data that detectives and officers send to each other. It’s secure.

A skilled hacker might get through , but otherwise it’s secure.


----------



## indianroads

Feeling a lot better today... among bad dreams that was the king of the hill.
Anyway, I've decided to go back over the plot, then the draft of Moonscape... kinda sorta pretty much starting over. The plot will be pretty much the same but I'll reduce the character count and will take a hard and critical look at the ending.
Thanks for the support of getting through that dream crisis.


----------



## Envy123

I think a bit of Twilight seeped into my story. Watched a critique of the book and my character Misty has some similar traits to Edward Cullen.

Though I still made Misty more complex, I guess inspiration can come from anywhere.


----------



## Parabola

Looks like I'm going to have two versions of "The Shaman's Bargain." The first one is more granular, not a good lens for me. The second one will hopefully be "zoomed out" looking at all the weeds instead of focusing on each one.


----------



## Parabola

It does irritate me I can't focus on the story/theme I want, but I'm learning to focus on current inspiration and enjoy the ride.


----------



## indianroads

I considered trunking my WIP Moonscape, but have decided not to. There was something wrong with it, and I struggled to figure out what it was. I finally decided that the last few chapters (the climax) - were too crowded. So, I am starting at the beginning and am doing a high altitude edit - eliminating several characters early on, and particularly at the climax reducing the number (not killing them off) from ten, down to six, then to three.

Yesterday I scrubbed the first seven chapters... and would have kept at it today but had to renew my drivers license, then got caught up in yard work. I'll get back to the story tomorrow.

I'm feeling positive again.


----------



## Taylor

I received my first draft of the Book 3 cover for my trilogy today.  Book 1 I loved!   Book 2 was out of this world gorgeous!!  Book 3 is a little disappointing. 

But, now I will work with the designer to bring them all up to the Book 2 standard.  It's great working them together this way.  The finals will be an ensemble of complimentary images.

And just looking at them is soooo inspiring for my writing!


----------



## Parabola

I had a sort of "sad dog story" in mind but might flip that on its head.


----------



## Parabola

Trying to build up little conflict nodes, so I wake up to 85+ notifications tomorrow.


----------



## Explosia

Ch 13 is 3400 words. WOOO! I think maybe this puts me back into a wiggle space of 500 words. There are two completely different scenes going on in it, so I wonder if I might ultimately end up splitting it into two chapters. 

I now get to Frankenstein the next chapter...!


----------



## indianroads

I’m 12 chapters deep in my character reduction of Moonscape. It’s a streamlined version that I hope will have better flow.


----------



## Parabola

Watching Fight Club for the first time in years. It has a sense of style and gravitas that the creative juices are already flowing, and the threads of immaturity I can filter out easily enough. I'm hoping this is the phosphorescent kick of inspiration I need.


----------



## Parabola

I like to research various authors, tending to go through phases where I start accumulating unpractical levels of knowledge about them. Even if I don't like them personally or are apathetic to them overall. Then, after the phase has passed, the information is forgotten in small, sad little shavings of regret.



> In 1995, Palahniuk joined a Portland-based writing group that practiced a technique called "dangerous writing". This technique, developed by American author Tom Spanbauer, emphasizes the use of minimalist prose, and the use of painful, personal experiences for inspiration. Under Spanbauer's influence, Palahniuk produced an early draft of what would later become his novel _Invisible Monsters_ (1999), but it was rejected by all publishers he submitted it to. Palahniuk then wrote a second novel, expanding on his short story, "Fight Club".[8] Initially _Fight Club_ was published as a seven-page short story in the compilation _Pursuit of Happiness_ (1995),[9] but Palahniuk expanded it to novel length (in which the original short story became chapter six); _Fight Club: A Novel_ was published in 1996.[10]


----------



## Theglasshouse

I am trying to vary my activities. Writing is one of them. But it seems I read too much on how to write. I did a lot of research yesterday on a work in progress, which ended up wasting the entire afternoon. I hope I can somehow watch in company this tv series I have been trying to continue to watch (with my mother). Currently bought a book by an aspie on how to write paragraphs. It's an important for me since I don't transition well sometimes. If you will, this is the writing process for creative writing (how to write a narrative paragraph without suffering writer's block). I am going to study it once I watch more of the deadly sins series. It's an interesting show. It's rare to find a long-running show (88 episodes long) that runs because of the characters and not the plot. Life can be monotonous sometimes if you don't do different things. I know it sounds as if obvious. But to an aspie, you need to vary your activities. With a mood disorder it seems I feel better when I do. That is when my aspie personality doesn't sabotage my plans by changing my moods (doing the same thing for a long period of time). That and life can be boring, so humans made stories and entertainment. Writing to entertain others when done excessively can bore the people doing the writing (as a hobby that wastes multiple hours). Currently, I am going to use a very different writing process, but I want to relax. I haven't continued studying syntax since I need to be at home to make notes. I use a microphone. That's boring too. It has long boggled my mind but maybe someday games will be what children and adults use to learn difficult subjects. IMO the future is bright in software and game design if someone were to do this. I know of none currently and do not wish to take that career path. So I suppose I wouldn't be surprised if I had a bit of dyslexia and Aspergers. I have been called creative. Storywise, the stories need better execution of their concepts. I hope to sign up to a different subscription service. I think I might have bought one of my last craft books since it answered in many ways how to plan a story based on characterization. My family is big but they live far away, and most of them place a high value on working long hours. But anyways, I try to seek some way to vent to improve my overall mood and feeling. I don't go to therapists, but it helps me think more clearly. Looks as if I will watch the deadly sins today.


----------



## Parabola

The visual flow I wanted is starting to drip at a faster rate. Getting closer. I'm waiting for the cooking oil to pop, so to speak.


----------



## NajaNoir

I'm frustrated with my writing lately, it feels very generic, I don't care for that.  I want my characters to have clear differences from one another, different outlook, different voice. I go into each story with that in mind and then get to the end, and it's hard to see a difference. Maybe in looks, but that's it. There's too much me in them, if that makes sense. I want them to be themselves.


----------



## Parabola

First rule, don't talk about Write Club. Second rule, _don't talk about Write Club._


----------



## Parabola

I have many different styles. For whatever reason, I'm not really loyal to any of them.


----------



## Parabola

So that beta reader subforum is for longer works. I'd like to have a few beta readers on hand for shorts before I even post them to workshop, to make sure they resonate on a general level (subject matter/genre being primary concerns). They'd at the very least need to be interested in surreal/experimental fiction though. It'll probably be at least a few weeks until I have some fresh content under my belt, but that's something I'd like going forward.


----------



## Nobelia

Not sure how else I'd word it... There's a sense of restlessness, waiting for a steady flow of good writing habits to build up, then carry me away.


----------



## Yumi Koizumi

Parabola said:


> First rule, don't talk about Write Club. Second rule, _don't talk about Write Club._


Can you write about Write Club?


----------



## Parabola

Yumi Koizumi said:


> Can you write about Write Club?



Touche.


----------



## Taylor

Feeling more positive about my writing productivity.  While attending two days of the _Sunshine Coast Festival for the Written Arts_, I heard ten authors speak of their recent best-selling books.  Time frames for completion were all in the two to five-year period.  Francesca Ekwuyasi's novel was a finalist for the Giller Prize, the Governor General's Literary Award as well as on many best-of lists.  It took her five years to write it!


----------



## indianroads

Took a break from writing the draft of Moonscape today and instead went over the plot for the final 11 chapters of that story. I had wandered off the grid and the story was in chaos as a result - today I hopefully have it nailed down. I'll resume writing the draft tomorrow.


----------



## Explosia

Taylor said:


> Feeling more positive about my writing productivity.  While attending two days of the _Sunshine Coast Festival for the Written Arts_, I heard ten authors speak of their recent best-selling books.  Time frames for completion were all in the two to five-year period.  Francesca Ekwuyasi's novel was a finalist for the Giller Prize, the Governor General's Literary Award as well as on many best-of lists.  It took her five years to write it!


Oh man, I would love to go to some kind of writer's conference or something like that, but any time I find one, the attendance fee is crazy expensive... 

Five years sounds about right... I have genuinely lost track of how long it's been for my main WIP, but I'm pretty sure it's been more than three years, now.


----------



## Parabola

> The minutes go by silently, and there’s a steady pulse of bleakness, other things that are below the horizon of most minds but that I pick up on with relative ease anymore.



Another quote from "The Loser's Labyrinth."


----------



## PrairieHostage

NajaNoir said:


> I'm frustrated with my writing lately, it feels very generic, I don't care for that.  I want my characters to have clear differences from one another, different outlook, different voice. I go into each story with that in mind and then get to the end, and it's hard to see a difference. Maybe in looks, but that's it. There's too much me in them, if that makes sense. I want them to be themselves.


I feel you, @NajaNoir ! I've been reading some good plots & characters lately and it can sometimes make me feel my novel is boring. I think dissatisfaction is the sign of a writer that cares and ALL good writers feel this way during the process of sculpting. You are in good company.


Taylor said:


> Feeling more positive about my writing productivity.  While attending two days of the _Sunshine Coast Festival for the Written Arts_, I heard ten authors speak of their recent best-selling books.  Time frames for completion were all in the two to five-year period.  Francesca Ekwuyasi's novel was a finalist for the Giller Prize, the Governor General's Literary Award as well as on many best-of lists.  It took her five years to write it!


Its inspiring to learn best selling authors labor over their writing for that long. I've given my little YA only seven months. I fully expect more drafts in the future. Thanks for sharing this because maybe @NajaNoir and I had to hear this message today.


----------



## Parabola

Being an entp, I have dozens of styles under my belt, which means there's often difficulty when it comes to choosing a specific vehicle of expression. That also means getting a broader pattern of my stuff is equally difficult because the most random detail will compel me to write in a drastically different voice/style I've never considered. Someone who used to read my stories/poems for years would say I'd continuously surprise them since there would be a huge difference in voice/subject matter/structure.

Personally, I'd prefer to have a solid foundation since it's less anxiety provoking that way.


----------



## Explosia

The edit for Ch 14 is complete and it's 5400 words aaaaah..... By this point, I think I'm going to have to reserve myself to the fact that this thing is probably not going to dip below 100k words. But damn if it won't be close. Funnily enough, this now makes Ch 14 the second largest chapter.

Anyhoo, we now embark into Ch 15, another "backstory" chapter that, probably way down the line, will eventually end up being cut... but y'know... I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. I think, since the chapter only has one thing really going on in it, then maybe I can possibly get it to be short...

The remaining chapters, though, are going to be a challenge... because I think a _lot_ is going to need to happen in them. Including The Grand Finale Climax sequence. Realistically, that should probably be two chapters... yet another bridge to cross when we get there...

On the pretty cool side, though, Ch 14 is replacing like three or four whole chapters from the old draft. So I am the Cutting Queen for sure at this point.


----------



## Parabola

I'm tempted to write a paragraph from Ethan's story, book 3 even though book 2 isn't finished yet. Quite frankly, I'm excited to write from the perspective of someone who exists within a dictatorship they inadvertently created. 

Let the melancholic juices flow.


----------



## Yumi Koizumi

Parabola said:


> I'm tempted to write a paragraph from Ethan's story, book 3 even though book 2 isn't finished yet. Quite frankly, I'm excited to write from the perspective of someone who exists within a dictatorship they inadvertently created.
> 
> Let the melancholic juices flow.


How about something like a WP or FB page for the book, and releasing tidbits there to garner/grow interest in advance? That kind of self-promotion has the best upside... it's free!  

P.S. You might have a running commentary, just a few lines at a time, as posts from the characters. Not quotes from the book, necessarily, but the characters 'talking' to the 4th wall, the future readers. The characters can ask the readers questions about their experiences in-book, like... "Can you imagine working for someone _____ for _______ years, and then have them ask you, "________________________________"? Who has that kind of nerve?!" ...just trying to think of a non-standard means of promoting your books... Each character answering public comments as the character, explaining more of the plot in each exchange... Am I describing this well?


----------



## Parabola

Yumi Koizumi said:


> How about something like a WP or FB page for the book, and releasing tidbits there to garner/grow interest in advance? That kind of self-promotion has the best upside... it's free!
> 
> P.S. You might have a running commentary, just a few lines at a time, as posts from the characters. Not quotes from the book, necessarily, but the characters 'talking' to the 4th wall, the future readers. The characters can ask the readers questions about their experiences in-book, like... "Can you imagine working for someone _____ for _______ years, and then have them ask you, "________________________________"? Who has that kind of nerve?!" ...just trying to think of a non-standard means of promoting your books... Each character answering public comments as the character, explaining more of the plot in each exchange... Am I describing this well?



That's a great idea! I'm far enough away from the promoting stage that honestly I haven't considered it much. Not even sure what route I want to go. (Self-pub or traditional). I'm getting close to the stage where I might be looking for beta readers soon, so that help steer me in a particular direction.


----------



## indianroads

What's going on is that I'm tired. I've written and published ten books in a row without a break. My mind is exhausted. 

After I finish with the draft of Moonscape, I'll set it aside for a while - a month... maybe, probably more - then go back to it. During that time I'll still be hanging out here, but instead of writing, I'll read and maybe, if the weather is good, take a long motorcycle ride.


----------



## Parabola

I really wish I had that "just swallowed a fistful of ritalin so now I can write fifteen paragraphs that are barely connected but really I just like to ramble rn"...style. Like, what the **** is going through their heads when they write that? I say nothing of course because rambling on the internet is the next big thing (case in point).


----------



## Yumi Koizumi

indianroads said:


> What's going on is that I'm tired. I've written and published ten books in a row without a break. My mind is exhausted.


Even on the highway, you need to pull the clutch once in a while.


----------



## PedestrianWriter

The issue I'm having at the moment is this: I've been pouring nearly every spare minute of my spring and summer into working on my current project, which was initially intended for an audience of one. Over this past weekend I shared the eight chapters I've completed with that audience of one, and she would really like me to keep going. Time is of the essence, let's just say.

However I need a mental and physical break from these characters and this sequence of events, as a significant part of it is very personal.

My current goal is to recover quickly and finish this project by Christmas at the latest. Before joining this forum I was ready to throw the remainder of the story in the trash, so I hope someone out there will keep me on task


----------



## Yumi Koizumi

PedestrianWriter said:


> My current goal is to recover quickly and finish this project by Christmas at the latest. Before joining this forum I was ready to throw the remainder of the story in the trash, so I hope someone out there will keep me on task


I sort-of need someone like this, too. Like a writing buddy, someone you call when you want a drink or cigarette when you are quitting. 

I hope you find a measured pace that is not undulating between nothing and frenzy. You are certainly in the right place to find that person.


----------



## indianroads

@PedestrianWriter  &  @Yumi Koizumi - Try posting daily progress reports in this thread and in the Share the Joy thread. You'll find that folks here will cheer you on.
Go for it!


----------



## Parabola

Deliberately invoking echoes of the past (as in, referencing past famous authors), doesn't necessarily make it "nuanced" writing. Feelers have a slipshod view of so many things.


----------



## Yumi Koizumi

NajaNoir said:


> I'm frustrated with my writing lately, it feels very generic, I don't care for that.  I want my characters to have clear differences from one another, different outlook, different voice. I go into each story with that in mind and then get to the end, and it's hard to see a difference. Maybe in looks, but that's it. There's too much me in them, if that makes sense. I want them to be themselves.


I can't quite focus on what part you're saying is kind of blah or generic, but if the plot is kind of in more of a development phase then an action phase, you could always fill in the gaps with the characters either making fun of each other or intentionally pushing buttons because of their own individual personality quirks, whether it's camaraderie ribbing each other, or something like that.

And again, I don't know where you're coming from, but if the characters get blah, the environment or the plot itself can pick up the slack, or hopefully the other way around.


----------



## indianroads

Slow day yesterday - only got about half way through Moonscape chapter 39.
Today, we had to bring one of our cats to the vet, so I didn't get much done. I finished chapter 39 and got about 900 words into chapter 40.
A slow day, but I'm feeling good about it.


----------



## C.K.Johnson

I’ve been pecking away at a story that was inspired by a scene in my head. I’m at 12k words and realized I’ve been putting off that scene because I’m going to cry while I write it but tomorrow it’s getting written. Send virtual cocktails and buds


----------



## NajaNoir

Yumi Koizumi said:


> I can't quite focus on what part you're saying is kind of blah or generic, but if the plot is kind of in more of a development phase then an action phase, you could always fill in the gaps with the characters either making fun of each other or intentionally pushing buttons because of their own individual personality quirks, whether it's camaraderie ribbing each other, or something like that.
> 
> And again, I don't know where you're coming from, but if the characters get blah, the environment or the plot itself can pick up the slack, or hopefully the other way around.



My apologies, what I meant is that it feels like the main character of all, or at least most of my stories, is the same. Like a type of doll I place in different surroundings and worlds, but it's the same, reacts the same as all the others. I've known for a while that I have work to do on my character development, but was hit hard recently with the last story I wrote, they're too similar. I can't tell if it's me and my wants seeping into my character's or if I'm just that bad at writing them. 

It's like (I just said this to a friend) I use all of my imagination on the stories and save none for the character's. I have clear original visions for them but in the end they all end up too similar. 

Hope that makes more sense.


----------



## VRanger

NajaNoir said:


> My apologies, what I meant is that it feels like the main character of all, or at least most of my stories, is the same. Like a type of doll I place in different surroundings and worlds, but it's the same, reacts the same as all the others. I've known for a while that I have work to do on my character development, but was hit hard recently with the last story I wrote, they're too similar. I can't tell if it's me and my wants seeping into my character's or if I'm just that bad at writing them.
> 
> It's like (I just said this to a friend) I use all of my imagination on the stories and save none for the character's. I have clear original visions for them but in the end they all end up too similar.
> 
> Hope that makes more sense.


That's not necessarily a bad thing. I can name plenty of authors who write similar MCs, but different and colorful stories. In a way, I might, too ... because I don't want my MCs to be too "showy", or superman types. They tend to be quiet and sensible, and I let supporting characters take on the flamboyant roles. And you don't need a list of differences to make them unique. One noticeable feature will do that. Just realize that if a reader LIKES that character, they'll keep liking that character no matter what name or profession or situation you provide it. That also applies to supporting characters.

I'm not trying to sell anyone on the idea of writing a similar MC all the time. It's certainly fine to vary them. But it's also fine if you don't.  It's not on the list of reasons anyone should doubt their writing.


----------



## Envy123

I should really be doing romance novels as well. Feedback on my romance has been pretty positive and one has said that I should definitely do a full one.


----------



## Yumi Koizumi

NajaNoir said:


> My apologies, what I meant is that it feels like the main character of all, or at least most of my stories, is the same. Like a type of doll I place in different surroundings and worlds, but it's the same, reacts the same as all the others. I've known for a while that I have work to do on my character development, but was hit hard recently with the last story I wrote, they're too similar. I can't tell if it's me and my wants seeping into my character's or if I'm just that bad at writing them.
> 
> It's like (I just said this to a friend) I use all of my imagination on the stories and save none for the character's. I have clear original visions for them but in the end they all end up too similar.
> 
> Hope that makes more sense.


If you find that this is a character that you were drawn to, and that character is playing the role of totally different people, maybe that's a sign that that character could be the one that carries through in a series... ?

In other words, you could try not fighting it and using it as a positive benefit. Part of that character's life is for whatever reason you decide to be put into a variety of situations, kind of like they did with Ian Flemming's James Bond.

$0.02


----------



## Riptide

I'm kind of in a stalemate, not doing too much at all. Might need to nose dive into some reading to motivate me to write/revise


----------



## indianroads

Not much work done today - stayed late at the dojang to help someone, and now the wife and I are heading out for some live Irish music. Should be a fun night.
I'm still working on Chapter 40 - 1900 words in so far, with more to come.


----------



## Louanne Learning

indianroads said:


> Not much work done today - stayed late at the dojang to help someone, and now the wife and I are heading out for some live Irish music. Should be a fun night.
> I'm still working on Chapter 40 - 1900 words in so far, with more to come.



I love Irish music. And I love Irish dancing. My nieces did Irish dancing for years.

Hope the break brings you back inspired tomorrow!


----------



## Explosia

Ch 15 stops at 5100 words. According to my spreadsheet, I am precisely on track with my word count. While that's nice... I'd have been much happier if I was under the word count. But y'know, just going to wait and see what the end grand total is. 

But oh my god, the next couple of chapters... it's going to be so much cobbling... and I have to manifest a whole new scene between two characters. But man, we're getting close... Ch 16 next, and my target number of chapters is 21... 

As a somewhat sidebar, two weeks ago, I took a week off from work for vacation. That whole week, I spent just about every day writing. It felt like a simulation of that "full-time writing" lifestyle, and it was super nice. Literally rolling out of bed, putting on my coffee, plopping down into my chair, and gettin' crackin'. I could absolutely live that life.


----------



## Yumi Koizumi

Explosia said:


> Ch 15 stops at 5100 words. According to my spreadsheet, I am precisely on track with my word count. While that's nice... I'd have been much happier if I was under the word count. But y'know, just going to wait and see what the end grand total is.


Whenever you post stats, i always want to ask about words vs. chapters sizes vs. scenes.

I'm trying to learn as much as I can about fiction before I dip my big toe in, and you take much more of a technical way of tracking and monitoring your progress. This is just exactly what my style is, but I wonder if it would hurt to have a word quota or something like that where I would have to either drag things out, or compress them.

At some point you must be doing it to keep the pace brisk enough for a reader to not fall asleep. How for your particular, unique writing? Did you come up with this, and is it helpful for someone who just needs either do X amount in X amount of days kind of motivation, or is it to keep things? Things, like I said before brisk enough for a reader, because writing piece by piece you don't really have a sense, I guess, of the pace the reader may read in.

I hope this doesn't sound like a circular kind of confusing question, but unfortunately that's how it came out...


P.S. When my punctuation goes wonky, it's my cell phone's speech to text. It was awesome on the google pixle 3, but can suck-start an old motorcycle on google pixel 6 pro...


----------



## Parabola

About 76k in. Might have another 10k left, though it could be less. Seems like it'll overtake book 1 when it comes to word count at any rate.


----------



## indianroads

Explosia said:


> Ch 15 stops at 5100 words. According to my spreadsheet, I am precisely on track with my word count. While that's nice... I'd have been much happier if I was under the word count. But y'know, just going to wait and see what the end grand total is.
> 
> But oh my god, the next couple of chapters... it's going to be so much cobbling... and I have to manifest a whole new scene between two characters. But man, we're getting close... Ch 16 next, and my target number of chapters is 21...
> 
> As a somewhat sidebar, two weeks ago, I took a week off from work for vacation. That whole week, I spent just about every day writing. It felt like a simulation of that "full-time writing" lifestyle, and it was super nice. Literally rolling out of bed, putting on my coffee, plopping down into my chair, and gettin' crackin'. I could absolutely live that life.


I wouldn't be concerned about the WC of your draft because it will change during editing. Most of the time my draft comes in at 3 or 4 K over my WC goal (100 K), but by working through the edits it tightens.

My WIP is different. Originally, I wanted to write a longer book than what I usually do - and wanted the draft to come in at about 109 K, which I would edit down to ~106 K. Well... that didn't happen, because while writing the draft I discovered a batch of unnecessary BS plot points that added little to the story, so I deleted them. At present it looks as if the draft (not completed yet) will come in at ~100K, however, the draft is missing some descriptions and key relationship issues between my characters, so it _MIGHT_ grow a bit... probably not that much though.

In the end, the story is what it is. Sure, we need to hit a WC that is expected for the genre, but there's some wiggle room. So, for now at least, I wouldn't worry about WC or page count, just write it, and know it will probably change during editing.


----------



## Arsenex

Explosia said:


> Ch 15 stops at 5100 words. According to my spreadsheet, I am precisely on track with my word count. While that's nice... I'd have been much happier if I was under the word count. But y'know, just going to wait and see what the end grand total is.
> 
> But oh my god, the next couple of chapters... it's going to be so much cobbling... and I have to manifest a whole new scene between two characters. But man, we're getting close... Ch 16 next, and my target number of chapters is 21...
> 
> As a somewhat sidebar, two weeks ago, I took a week off from work for vacation. That whole week, I spent just about every day writing. It felt like a simulation of that "full-time writing" lifestyle, and it was super nice. Literally rolling out of bed, putting on my coffee, plopping down into my chair, and gettin' crackin'. I could absolutely live that life.


A 5K chapter is huge! My first works I averaged about 3.5K-4K words per chapter. I've been working to drop that to more like 2K. This is just my opinion, but I think it gives the work a faster paced feel. It also gives the reader more places to stop reading for the day, which can be good or bad. To counter the bad, I try to end each chapter with a hook for the next. I want those reader review comments to say, "I couldn't put this book down" or "I was late to work because I couldn't stop reading." I tend to write long series, so having a good pace keeps readers coming back for more.


----------



## Envy123

Arsenex said:


> A 5K chapter is huge! My first works I averaged about 3.5K-4K words per chapter. I've been working to drop that to more like 2K. This is just my opinion, but I think it gives the work a faster paced feel. It also gives the reader more places to stop reading for the day, which can be good or bad. To counter the bad, I try to end each chapter with a hook for the next. I want those reader review comments to say, "I couldn't put this book down" or "I was late to work because I couldn't stop reading." I tend to write long series, so having a good pace keeps readers coming back for more.


My chapters are wildly inconsistent in length, just like Brazilian telenovelas can have 35 minute episodes as well as 52 minute ones. I go for more "mini story arc must finish" than length. But that's just my style.

I use scene breaks (***) to allow for breathing room to try to make up for it.


----------



## Arsenex

Envy123 said:


> My chapters are wildly inconsistent in length, just like Brazilian telenovelas can have 35 minute episodes as well as 52 minute ones. I go for more "mini story arc must finish" than length. But that's just my style.
> 
> I use scene breaks (***) to allow for breathing room to try to make up for it.


Yep. There is no "correct" length. Only what you write.


----------



## Explosia

Yumi Koizumi said:


> Whenever you post stats, i always want to ask about words vs. chapters sizes vs. scenes.
> 
> I'm trying to learn as much as I can about fiction before I dip my big toe in, and you take much more of a technical way of tracking and monitoring your progress. This is just exactly what my style is, but I wonder if it would hurt to have a word quota or something like that where I would have to either drag things out, or compress them.
> 
> At some point you must be doing it to keep the pace brisk enough for a reader to not fall asleep. How for your particular, unique writing? Did you come up with this, and is it helpful for someone who just needs either do X amount in X amount of days kind of motivation, or is it to keep things? Things, like I said before brisk enough for a reader, because writing piece by piece you don't really have a sense, I guess, of the pace the reader may read in.
> 
> I hope this doesn't sound like a circular kind of confusing question, but unfortunately that's how it came out...
> 
> 
> P.S. When my punctuation goes wonky, it's my cell phone's speech to text. It was awesome on the google pixle 3, but can suck-start an old motorcycle on google pixel 6 pro...



Ah, unfortunately, it's not that I'm being super careful about the pacing... What's going on here is that I screwed up and overwrote the whole novel.  It's actually already written to the ending. But my first draft ended up being 250k words. That is... waaaaaay too long.   

Generally speaking, lit agents won't even look at a manuscript if the word count is too high, and that's for a couple of reasons. The big one is that the book becomes more expensive to produce if the word count is really high. Because that adds more pages that have to be edited, proofread, printed, and then that in turn causes the physical book to be heavier, which makes shipping in bulk more expensive. So traditional publishers do not like that.... But also, a huge word count is sometimes a red flag to lit agents. It might mean that the pacing for the story is meandering. There might be a ton of fluff or repetition that needs to be cut, etc. It could be a telltale sign that the manuscript has not really had a thorough edit, yet, which is definitely going to cause a lit agent to give it a hard pass.

So, ideally, I want my manuscript to be 100k words or less... Sometimes lit agents will still look at a manuscript that's up to 120k words, but that is the extreme maximum, and by that point, you're really pushing your luck. So, what I've actually been doing all summer is cutting 150k words from my novel... surprisingly, though, I'm managing to do it!  I've cut over 50k words so far! 

In order to do this, though, I really needed to work out a plan of action. So I math'd it out.  For myself, I've found that 5,000 words per chapter gives a good amount of room for a couple of scenes to happen. I'm averaging about 3 scenes per chapter if I let the word count reach 5k words. Sometimes I can squish in a 4th scene, but if I want to aim shorter, 3 is usually safer.  That said, 100k words total at 5k words max per chapter allows me room for 20 chapters. So that's what I'm going on. I've even put together an Excel spreadsheet to keep track of my word counts per chapter, and it's helping! 

I think this is actually massively improving the novel, though. I have cut a ton of fluff, found a lot of repetitive scenes that weren't necessary, chopped out a lot of excessive details that were slowing the prose down, etc. I've basically been calling this my "Get to the Point" edit. 

But once I've got the word count under control, I am going to have to go back again to smooth out all the rough edges. So still a lot to do...!


----------



## Explosia

Arsenex said:


> A 5K chapter is huge! My first works I averaged about 3.5K-4K words per chapter. I've been working to drop that to more like 2K. This is just my opinion, but I think it gives the work a faster paced feel. It also gives the reader more places to stop reading for the day, which can be good or bad. To counter the bad, I try to end each chapter with a hook for the next. I want those reader review comments to say, "I couldn't put this book down" or "I was late to work because I couldn't stop reading." I tend to write long series, so having a good pace keeps readers coming back for more.


I agree, actually! In fact, shorter chapters help me to keep reading most of the time. Once I've gotten my Big Huge Edit done, I may look the chapters over again and split them up some more. There are definitely some chapters I have right now that could probably be split into two or even three chapters rather than one. That won't be too much of a problem, I think. But for now, I'm just trying to focus on getting the total word count to drop within a certain range. Then I can go back and reorganize again.


----------



## Explosia

indianroads said:


> I wouldn't be concerned about the WC of your draft because it will change during editing. Most of the time my draft comes in at 3 or 4 K over my WC goal (100 K), but by working through the edits it tightens.
> 
> My WIP is different. Originally, I wanted to write a longer book than what I usually do - and wanted the draft to come in at about 109 K, which I would edit down to ~106 K. Well... that didn't happen, because while writing the draft I discovered a batch of unnecessary BS plot points that added little to the story, so I deleted them. At present it looks as if the draft (not completed yet) will come in at ~100K, however, the draft is missing some descriptions and key relationship issues between my characters, so it _MIGHT_ grow a bit... probably not that much though.
> 
> In the end, the story is what it is. Sure, we need to hit a WC that is expected for the genre, but there's some wiggle room. So, for now at least, I wouldn't worry about WC or page count, just write it, and know it will probably change during editing.


The thing is, though, this _is_ the edit.  I honestly think my total word count will end up being between 100k - 110k ... But I'm really trying to not go past 110k at the very maximum... If it does, then I'm going to have to look at the manuscript in whole again and decide if there's something more that can still be cut... and that's probably when I'm going to have to start making decisions about my two "backstory" chapters... bridges to cross when I get to them...!


----------



## indianroads

Explosia said:


> The thing is, though, this _is_ the edit.  I honestly think my total word count will end up being between 100k - 110k ... But I'm really trying to not go past 110k at the very maximum... If it does, then I'm going to have to look at the manuscript in whole again and decide if there's something more that can still be cut... and that's probably when I'm going to have to start making decisions about my two "backstory" chapters... bridges to cross when I get to them...!


Sorry if I missed it, but what genre is your book?


----------



## Yumi Koizumi

Explosia said:


> Ah, unfortunately, it's not that I'm being super careful about the pacing... What's going on here is that I screwed up and overwrote the whole novel.




Thank you for your lengthy reply. You didn't have to explain like that, so I appreciate it. In my naïve mind, it is easier to cut down than to fill out.


----------



## Explosia

indianroads said:


> Sorry if I missed it, but what genre is your book?




My genre is basically adult urban fantasy.


----------



## Explosia

Yumi Koizumi said:


> Thank you for your lengthy reply. You didn't have to explain like that, so I appreciate it. In my naïve mind, it is easier to cut down than to fill out.



No prob...!  I honestly think cutting is easier, too. I can pick and choose my scenes at this point. Both kinds of editing are tough, but I also do think that adding more content requires more of that brainpower.


----------



## indianroads

Explosia said:


> My genre is basically adult urban fantasy.


Have you looked up the length standards for that genre?


----------



## Yumi Koizumi

indianroads said:


> Have you looked up the length standards for that genre?


I was curious, so I found:


> *Reading the Numbers*
> Here’s some of the numbers as categorized by specific columns. In the interest of fairness, I did recognize the affect some outliers had on the data, and added the numbers both with and without said outliers.
> 
> Urban fantasy: The range is between 77,000 and 157,000. The average is about 106,000. (For those curious, the average is about 94,000 when The Magicians is removed from the calculations.)
> Epic fantasy: The range is between 114,000 and 310,000. The average is about 167,000. (For those curious, the average is 131,000 when EotW is removed from the calculations.)
> YA fantasy: The range is between 77,000 and 156,000. The average is about 116,000.
> NA fantasy: The range is between 119,000 and 157,000. The average is 138,000.
> Adult fantasy: The range is between 84,000 and 310,000. The average is 197,000.
> Debut authors: The range is between 77,000 and 156,000. The average is about 108,000.
> Established authors: The range is between 101,000 and 310,000. The average is about 156,000.


_source_


----------



## VRanger

And I'll point out that among the submission guidelines for Jim Baen books ... they want 100K words at a minimum.


----------



## Envy123

Yumi Koizumi said:


> I was curious, so I found:
> 
> _source_


Mine is 110k words - debut fantasy. 

I added more words due to feedback from beta readers that certain chapters lost their interest. Added more stakes and complications and the word count ballooned.


----------



## Yumi Koizumi

Envy123 said:


> I added more words due to feedback from beta readers that certain chapters lost their interest.


That kind of feedback sounds like gold.


----------



## Envy123

Yumi Koizumi said:


> That kind of feedback sounds like gold.


Yep, really useful. 

I extended the chapters with more complications and yeah, it's better according to feedback. But the downside is that my word count ballooned to 110k words and I'm afraid it harms my chances.


----------



## Yumi Koizumi

A question about gaining interest in a forthcoming release (of yours):

Whether the entire piece was done/drafted or not, would you see value in putting the first chapter out in something like a FB post, or blog, as a teaser? You could then use feedback, etc.?

I do a lot with the web, and thought it might be a good way to get someone/anyone to know I was out there... (once I start)


----------



## Explosia

indianroads said:


> Have you looked up the length standards for that genre?


Going off @Yumi Koizumi's info, it looks like 100k - 108k could be an okay range... Although it does make me a hair nervous to see that 94k might be the more likely average for urban fantasy...!  But that's why I'm trying to hit that 100k mark, and under if I can manage it.


----------



## indianroads

Explosia said:


> Going off @Yumi Koizumi's info, it looks like 100k - 108k could be an okay range... Although it does make me a hair nervous to see that 94k might be the more likely average for urban fantasy...!  But that's why I'm trying to hit that 100k mark, and under if I can manage it.


You still have edits to get through, right? If so, as you go through your MS look for excess wordiness, and scenes you might not need. Don't go crazy though; make a first pass taking down the obvious, then evaluate and go through your MS again. Trim it with a scalpel not a chainsaw. On average, I go through my MS 8 - 10 times before anyone else sees it.


----------



## Explosia

indianroads said:


> You still have edits to get through, right? If so, as you go through your MS look for excess wordiness, and scenes you might not need. Don't go crazy though; make a first pass taking down the obvious, then evaluate and go through your MS again. Trim it with a scalpel not a chainsaw. On average, I go through my MS 8 - 10 times before anyone else sees it.


True! Even when I've been peeking back at my previous chapters, I've still been finding some instances of wordiness that could be cut. 

That does give me some reassurance. If I give the whole thing another comb-through, I may be able to shave the word count down further as I tighten up the sentences line by line. I'll definitely be doing that!


----------



## Taylor

I've been struggling to write for the last few weeks.  

Trying to figure it out.  It started when I had to teach for two days and then went straight to a writer's festival.  The speakers were very inspiring, and I got to talk with some other authors and publishers.  I was pretty stoked by it.  Then ... no desire to write   ????   What happened? 

So I need a strategy to get back in the saddle.  You folks have helped me before, so I'll share my theory: 

Growing up, during the last two weeks of August, we always went on a family vacation.   Always enjoyed it; however, my mind wandered to Labour Day.   The first day of school was the best day of the year for me, better than Christmas.  I LOVED school!   Soooo ... here's my plan:  Treat these last days before the long weekend as a vacation, i.e., do whatever I want.  And look forward to getting back to writing, just like the first day of school. 

BUT -- come September 6, can some of you guys please check-up and make sure I have my butt at the keyboard?


----------



## VRanger

Explosia said:


> True! Even when I've been peeking back at my previous chapters, I've still been finding some instances of wordiness that could be cut.
> 
> That does give me some reassurance. If I give the whole thing another comb-through, I may be able to shave the word count down further as I tighten up the sentences line by line. I'll definitely be doing that!


And no writer should believe that wordiness in a first (or early) draft signifies ANYTHING other than they're an author. I'm sort of an expert on Heinlein's Citizen of the Galaxy, and in possession of a scan of the editorial markup on the submitted draft. It was cut from 100K words to 83K words. His massive crossover bestseller, Stranger in a Strange Land, was cut from 220K to 160K. Some of that wasn't wordiness, though. Putnam didn't want to take a chance on printing all the extra pages. LOL They wanted it cut further, but at that point Heinlein complained he couldn't cut any more without losing both his voice and the essence of the story.

Neither of these was the work of a developing author. Heinlein had been publishing successful novels for 10 years by the time he wrote Citizen. Often we write as we think and speak, then edit as an experienced reader. As we know, casual conversation does not often make for good prose. So after we write, we put it through that internal translator to get from one to the other.

On the other side, sometimes we write with an overdeveloped "author's voice", then upon reflection recognize how ridiculous that sounded. LOL


----------



## Yumi Koizumi

Taylor said:


> I've been struggling to write for the last few weeks.
> 
> Trying to figure it out.  It started when I had to teach for two days and then went straight to a writer's festival.  The speakers were very inspiring, and I got to talk with some other authors and publishers.  I was pretty stoked by it.  Then ... no desire to write   ????   What happened?
> 
> So I need a strategy to get back in the saddle.  You folks have helped me before, so I'll share my theory:
> 
> Growing up, during the last two weeks of August, we always went on a family vacation.   Always enjoyed it; however, my mind wandered to Labour Day.   The first day of school was the best day of the year for me, better than Christmas.  I LOVED school!   Soooo ... here's my plan:  Treat these last days before the long weekend as a vacation, i.e., do whatever I want.  And look forward to getting back to writing, just like the first day of school.
> 
> BUT -- come September 6, can some of you guys please check-up and make sure I have my butt at the keyboard?


I like the idea of relaxing and taking the days off, but you almost sound like you need to be talked into it. If you are a casual procrastinator, or a professional like myself, then you have an endless stream of excuses available.

It's like there are two little demons one on each shoulder, and you have to choose-but they both have a really good pitch!


----------



## JBF

Yumi Koizumi said:


> It's like there are two little demons one on each shoulder, and you have to choose-but they both have a really good pitch!


As I used to describe my manager/coworkers/self:

“See, most people have a devil on one shoulder and an angel on the other.  What we have here is a devil on one side…and on the other a smaller, slightly retarded devil.”

This was generally agreed to be accurate.


----------



## Taylor

Yumi Koizumi said:


> I like the idea of relaxing and taking the days off, but you almost sound like you need to be talked into it. If you are a casual procrastinator, or a professional like myself, then you have an endless stream of excuses available.
> 
> It's like there are two little demons one on each shoulder, and you have to choose-but they both have a really good pitch!


Haha ... indeed!   I never like to use the word "excuses" because it makes me feel like a failure.  I have been incredibly productive over my lifetime, but I'm not a workaholic, so yes, "procrastinator" is in my vocabulary.  

However, I prefer to find a _reasonable explanation_ for why something isn't occurring organically. See what I did there? 

I'll confirm my theory on September 6.


----------



## VRanger

Taylor said:


> Haha ... indeed!   I never like to use the word "excuses" because it makes me feel like a failure.  I have been incredibly productive over my lifetime, but I'm not a workaholic, so yes, "procrastinator" is in my vocabulary.
> 
> However, I prefer to find a _reasonable explanation_ for why something isn't occurring organically. See what I did there?
> 
> I'll confirm my theory on September 6.


Procrastination is merely waiting on further developments in order to make a more informed decision. ;-)


----------



## Envy123

Should I start writing my MG spin-off book while waiting for betas to go through Laughing Matters? I felt like I did all I could this time.


----------



## VRanger

Envy123 said:


> Should I start writing my MG spin-off book while waiting for betas to go through Laughing Matters? I felt like I did all I could this time.


If you feel like writing, write.


----------



## Envy123

VRanger said:


> If you feel like writing, write.


Thank you  I will start the new story, then.


----------



## indianroads

What's on my mind about my writing is that this is day 2 of *not* writing. 
Over the last 6 years I've written and published 10 books, and have recently completed the draft for my 11th. So, I'm tired and am on pause, using the time to put myself back together. Not writing is harder than I thought it would be - I love the process and it has become a habit, but I'm determined to take 2 weeks off... cold turkey.
So, I'm reading, practicing martial arts more than usual, visiting friends, and I may take a ride up into the mountains later this week.


----------



## Envy123

Urgh, I tried writing my first chapter of Jelly Dogs as a book from the get go. Nope, really bad when I slept on it.

I’m coming back to the good and reliable method of a screenplay as an outline and then build on each bone afterwards, for it to be an actual book. It’s a lot better already from a storytelling standpoint.


----------



## Davi Franco

rosa220 said:


> You know, like Facebook? But instead, it's AWbook...lol
> 
> Anyway, I thought I would start a thread like that since I haven't seen one. If there is one, you can move this then.
> 
> What's on my mind about my writing? Well, a lot. I can't seem to stop thinking about writing. Sometimes it sucks thinking about it so much and writing too on top of it! ha!
> 
> Anyway, I'm writing my 5th novel right now. It's my third YA book. My first two are with my agent, which she's been great about. I was blessed to find one to represent both of my YAs. So I figured to write another while I wait on my submissions. I'm up to 38K words and nearing the end. I'm hoping to get it up to 50 but I feel like I barely have 10 left in me. I wrote an outline which is helping too but I feel like I'm crawling to write out the rest of it now.
> 
> Usually, I write out 2,000 words a day, but lately, it's barely 500. It seems like I can only do 500 in a sitting and then I get antsy to read it and look back on it. Like I said, I have an outline, and notes and I'm up to the 19th chapter, but I feel like I am forgetting what I write, it's nuts. Then the rest of the time, when I'm not writing, I friggin' thinking about writing. Like I said, it sucks. It's this vicious circle. And I know it won't stop till the novel is actually done, which could be a couple more months.
> 
> Anyway, your turn...
> 
> What's on your mind about your writing?


I miss when I had more time to write and learn. Back in quarantine days, I used to write  2k-5k words a day, sometimes even higher than that. Now, I have college exams and lots of stuff to do. I'm using the night to write and currently starting the second book of a series I pretend to self-publish.


----------



## indianroads

A bit of hubris... admittedly I'm pleased with what I've accomplished, and I believe others here should feel the same about their accomplishments. I mean... how many times have we heard _'oh, I'll write a book someday'_ from folks that never do. Admittedly, writing is HARD WORK, so I think lots of folks give up when they're standing at the base of the mountain they'll have to climb because the sight of it is pretty damned daunting. So we all should be proud because we've climbed that mountain and made it to the top.
The pic below is something of something I've been doing for a while, and I encourage others to do as well.
1. Purchase an 11x17 picture frame.
2. Have your cover blown up to fit it.
3. Put them together and hang them on your office wall


----------



## Parabola

"You can't just freeze time and go about your life, Ethan. That's not how it works."

"Can and did. Would recommend to friends!"


----------



## nomdesab

I've been fighting with the voice of the book for months now.  My ultimate goal is to get a close personal third voice, with less dialogue.


----------



## VRanger

nomdesab said:


> I've been fighting with the voice of the book for months now.  My ultimate goal is to get a close personal third voice, with less dialogue.


Just wondering why you want less dialogue? Good dialogue supercharges scenes.


----------



## nomdesab

VRanger said:


> Just wondering why you want less dialogue? Good dialogue supercharges scenes.


I should have said more narrative rather than less dialogue but on the subject of dialogue... I'm just terrible at it.


----------



## Envy123

Can I use Russian words and sentences if I try to make clear of the context? Like:



> Olga clapped her hands. "Time for an adventure. Let’s play корабль!"
> 
> I nodded.
> 
> "I’ll be the captain of my ship and you’ll be my crew!" Olga announced.


It's in the culture of the school that mixing Russian and English is the norm and I'm trying to portray that. But I'm worried it'd be too off-putting. Or is it better in English and italics?


----------



## Lawless

Envy123 said:


> Can I use Russian words and sentences if [---]



I'll address three aspects of your question separately: 1) to use a foreign language or not? 2) if yes then how? 3) the alphabet.

1. Personally I would love to see multilingual conversations actually written in those languages. It feels a lot more real than the narrator merely saying that this or that was said in this or that language. However, I have the impression that many native English speakers dislike being reminded of the existence of other languages than English. So my opinion doesn't count much in this respect.

2. In every language other than English in which I have read books, it's common to use words and phrases in foreign languages and provide a translation in a footnote at the bottom of the page. It's so simple and natural, which is why I can't understand why are the English-language authors making things so complicated by explaining the meaning of foreign words (or hinting at it more or less vaguely) in the narration, or not providing a translation at all. Maybe someone else can explain this.

3. I strongly advise against using a foreign alphabet. When a word is transliterated into the Latin alphabet, the reader will at least have an idea what it sounds like. It's comparable to a foreign name or a technical term the meaning of which they don't know. But a sequence of symbols that one can't interpret is really irritating – unless, of course, the point is that the character is seeing symbols he can't understand (and hopefully will later), which is not the case here.


----------



## Envy123

Lawless said:


> I'll address three aspects of your question separately: 1) to use a foreign language or not? 2) if yes then how? 3) the alphabet.
> 
> 1. Personally I would love to see multilingual conversations actually written in those languages. It feels a lot more real than the narrator merely saying that this or that was said in this or that language. However, I have the impression that many native English speakers dislike being reminded of the existence of other languages than English. So my opinion doesn't count much in this respect.
> 
> 2. In every language other than English in which I have read books, it's common to use words and phrases in foreign languages and provide a translation in a footnote at the bottom of the page. It's so simple and natural, which is why I can't understand why are the English-language authors making things so complicated by explaining the meaning of foreign words (or hinting at it more or less vaguely) in the narration, or not providing a translation at all. Maybe someone else can explain this.
> 
> 3. I strongly advise against using a foreign alphabet. When a word is transliterated into the Latin alphabet, the reader will at least have an idea what it sounds like. It's comparable to a foreign name or a technical term the meaning of which they don't know. But a sequence of symbols that one can't interpret is really irritating – unless, of course, the point is that the character is seeing symbols he can't understand (and hopefully will later), which is not the case here.


Thank you so much 

Yeah, using italics could also be confusing as I use it for present tense thoughts. I’ll transliterate the Russian and provide any non-obvious meanings through footnotes.


----------



## Parabola

Fly too close to the sun >> get turned into flesh soup >> evaporate a split second later.


----------



## VRanger

Lawless said:


> I'll address three aspects of your question separately: 1) to use a foreign language or not? 2) if yes then how? 3) the alphabet.
> 
> 1. Personally I would love to see multilingual conversations actually written in those languages. It feels a lot more real than the narrator merely saying that this or that was said in this or that language. However, I have the impression that many native English speakers dislike being reminded of the existence of other languages than English.


I don't think that's true at all. I can only speak for America, but more Americans learn foreign languages than we get credit for. ;-) (I studied Spanish and my wife Russian, for example. My son and daughter-in-law speak French.) English itself has strong Germanic origins, and it's possible to make out some paragraphs in German even with never studying it. Plus, the USA probably has the widest set of countries of origin of any place in the world. Words and phrases from every language you can imagine are integrated into our vernacular ... especially regionally where a strong presence exists from one particular country. For a long time in parts of northern Midwest, it was common for kids to grow up speaking only German, and only learned English when they began to leave their original communities.

We're not known as "the great melting pot" for nothing. ;-)


----------



## VRanger

nomdesab said:


> I should have said more narrative rather than less dialogue but on the subject of dialogue... I'm just terrible at it.


In that case, you don't want to avoid it, you want to work to improve it. You have the advantage of realizing what you need to study.


----------



## Envy123

I don't think Jelly Dogs can have a sequel, given its very limited setting and the narrative is about defeating the mad scientist. Which leaves with nothing else.

But apparently, standalone fantasy books are a thing in trad pub, so I should be fine.


----------



## VRanger

Envy123 said:


> I don't think Jelly Dogs can have a sequel, given its very limited setting and the narrative is about defeating the mad scientist. Which leaves with nothing else.
> 
> But apparently, standalone fantasy books are a thing in trad pub, so I should be fine.



The mad scientist has a vengeful son.
The mad scientist's experiment left a monster on the loose.
It was really his clone they captured/killed.

Just kidding, but there are always excuses out there. LOL


----------



## Envy123

VRanger said:


> The mad scientist has a vengeful son.
> The mad scientist's experiment left a monster on the loose.
> It was really his clone they captured/killed.
> 
> Just kidding, but there are always excuses out there. LOL


Maybe. If it sells well, I could be convinced to come up with something else.


----------



## VRanger

Envy123 said:


> Maybe. If it sells well, I could be convinced to come up with something else.


If people like your MC, he can get involved in something completely different.


----------



## Taylor

I thought that I was writing a certain way, and am realizing that I'm not.  _Dang!  _So what now?  Change my style or accept my limitations?


----------



## indianroads

Taylor said:


> I thought that I was writing a certain way, and am realizing that I'm not.  _Dang!  _So what now?  Change my style or accept my limitations?


What happened?


----------



## VRanger

Taylor said:


> I thought that I was writing a certain way, and am realizing that I'm not.  _Dang!  _So what now?  Change my style or accept my limitations?


Learn as you go.  Your style doesn't change, it evolves.


----------



## Taylor

indianroads said:


> What happened?


In a critique, @Tettsuo posed a great question: 

_"It seems to me that you're giving us explicit background and implying the character's feelings. Have you considered flipping that?"_

Looking at some of my influences, I see what he means.  But it would be a big change in style.  I'd probably have to re-draft my first book of the series.


----------



## indianroads

Taylor said:


> In a critique, @Tettsuo posed a great question:
> 
> _"It seems to me that you're giving us explicit background and implying the character's feelings. Have you considered flipping that?"_
> 
> Looking at some of my influences, I see what he means.  But it would be a big change in style.  I'd probably have to re-draft my first book of the series.


I think that writing can be compared to climbing a ladder. We start at the bottom and with each project we complete we climb another rung. This is why I'm reluctant to go back and review work I did years ago - if I did, I'd either rewrite them and fall into an endless cycle of rewrites that would prevent the work from seeing the light of day. Don't do that.
You're an awesome writer and there are leagues of readers out there that will love your work. 
Take the input you received and apply it to your next project. If we keep climbing up then down that ladder we'll never progress or release anything.


----------



## Taylor

indianroads said:


> I think that writing can be compared to climbing a ladder. We start at the bottom and with each project we complete we climb another rung. This is why I'm reluctant to go back and review work I did years ago - if I did, I'd either rewrite them and fall into an endless cycle of rewrites that would prevent the work from seeing the light of day. Don't do that.
> You're an awesome writer and there are leagues of readers out there that will love your work.
> Take the input you received and apply it to your next project. If we keep climbing up then down that ladder we'll never progress or release anything.


This is good advice!  I think reworking or changing style too drastically will stall or even halt the project altogether.  I'm going to go stare at the ocean for the rest of my vacay.  Come September 6, I'll get back in the saddle and push on.  Honestly, I'm not even sure I could successfully adjust anyway.  

Did you find when you wrote your series that your style changed very much from the first book to the last book?


----------



## Envy123

Taylor said:


> I thought that I was writing a certain way, and am realizing that I'm not.  _Dang!  _So what now?  Change my style or accept my limitations?


I thought I was pacing things too slow, but apparently, my pacing is too fast for some readers despite all the detail I do use. I decided to embrace that as a positive, in the knowledge that I won't please everyone.


----------



## indianroads

Taylor said:


> Did you find when you wrote your series that your style changed very much from the first book to the last book?


I wrote them in quick succession - with that being said though I probably evolved a bit with each book.


----------



## indianroads

I know that I said I would take a break from writing... and technically speaking, I have. I'm looking at images on Shutterstock and 123rf for the cover of Moonscape today.

My cover guy is inundated, and so has raised his price to $700 for a regular turn around - won't get it until June of next year, and $1400 for a rush job. SO... I'll do it myself.


----------



## Taylor

indianroads said:


> I know that I said I would take a break from writing... and technically speaking, I have. I'm looking at images on Shutterstock and 123rf for the cover of Moonscape today.
> 
> My cover guy is inundated, and so has raised his price to $700 for a regular turn around - won't get it until June of next year, and $1400 for a rush job. SO... I'll do it myself.


Can't wait to see it! You did a great job on your last one.  I love the visual stuff. 

I had a meeting with my project manager today on the three book series covers.  The artist is doing a terrific job, better than I ever imagined.  Once they are complete, I will hang them in my office, to motivate me.


----------



## nomdesab

The best time to write for me is when the overnight lows are in the high 70's. I never sleep through that.  

-Sab from scorching California


----------



## indianroads

nomdesab said:


> The best time to write for me is when the overnight lows are in the high 70's. I never sleep through that.
> 
> -Sab from scorching California


Cali exPat here, living in Colorado now.


----------



## Envy123

Had a very vivid dream last night that Jelly Dogs would actually be sold first. That motivated me to continue.


----------



## Parmenidean Province

While different styles exist, I find that realism works best when you have nothing.

Can't write a scene with dialogue? Think about how you talk to your family members, friends, colleagues etc. What are the trains of thought? Do you talk past one another? Reality is as much of an exploitable source for inspiration as books and movies, if no more so.


----------



## Parabola

Ethan's in some twisted version of space, and he will languish there until I decide to tap the ol' ivories again. I wonder what he does in space when bored? Maybe count the stars.

"1,00-where was I? Damn, now I need to start over."


----------



## Parabola

Sometimes, I write a character who talks about having been a "precocious child" and, since they are an adult and therefore expendable, at some point they get beat up and thrown in a dumpster. Don't get mad at me, the characters write themselves basically.


----------



## nomdesab

I want to pop in to wish everyone a good day!  Working, writing, living...you got this!

Today I'm still working on chapter one re-write. I keep bouncing back and forth between re-writing the chapter altogether, or just tweaking it.  This is my pain. Me.


----------



## indianroads

I've discovered that NOT writing is harder for me than writing.
After exhausting myself with the draft of Moonscape I swore I would take 2 weeks off to read and relax. *That lasted only 2 days*. My return started with: "Working on the cover really isn't writing." So I spent yesterday working on that. Then this morning it occurred to me that the story might be better told if it was written in the 1st person, past tense... which is a POV and tense I've not used since the 1980s - so I'm considering rewriting the whole damned thing.
This is my fallacy - I lock on to stuff and CAN'T. LET. IT. GO.


----------



## Parabola

So I've introduced a bit of a side journey for Ethan. He finds himself above the town which is surrounded by a game-y interpretation of space. He's frozen time "because reasons" and he's wondering if he even needs to initiate the apocalypse beta at all, though it's still a temptation because it will theoretically cause the tributary to become a "tabula rasa." 

The tributary is a sandbox, so why start over when he's having fun?


----------



## nomdesab

indianroads said:


> I've discovered that NOT writing is harder for me than writing.
> After exhausting myself with the draft of Moonscape I swore I would take 2 weeks off to read and relax. *That lasted only 2 days*. My return started with: "Working on the cover really isn't writing." So I spent yesterday working on that. Then this morning it occurred to me that the story might be better told if it was written in the 1st person, past tense... which is a POV and tense I've not used since the 1980s - so I'm considering rewriting the whole damned thing.
> This is my fallacy - I lock on to stuff and CAN'T. LET. IT. GO.



I'm pretty much the same way.  I've been working on this same manuscript for more than 5 years now.  First draft was done. Went to the editor. Then I decided to re-write it.  But first was months and months of doing a new outline because a lot of the story had changed.  Now I'm happy with the new outline and it's time to actually re-write the thing. Ha.


----------



## indianroads

Doing the prep work for the rewrite of Moonscape - starting tomorrow. Wow, that was a fast 2 weeks that I stayed away from writing... feels more like 4 days.

I've decided to move from my usual 3rd person limited POV to 1st person past tense. I've got the character's voice in my head, and I think it will work.

ETA: Wife just told me that daughter #2 and her family are coming over tomorrow. I'm not a particularly social guy, so I hope to hide in my office and write a bit while they are here; Wife gets upset when I do that though, so I doubt much will get done.


----------



## Explosia

indianroads said:


> Wow, that was a fast 2 weeks that I stayed away from writing... feels more like 4 days.


 Y'know, sometimes you really only need just a day or two's worth of a break. I feel you about wanting to hide away to write... there have been so many days when I've just been like "boooo, I don't want to see people, I just want to spend all day writing....." In fact, that's just about me everyday at work.


Welp, I've been hacking away at Ch 16, and I'm coming up on one of the issues I anticipated... I need a scene with the detective and inspector duo, and I expected to have them appear in this chapter. But so far, with all of the other things going on in it, I am not going to have the room for this scene... But it's definitely a story beat that needs to happen. They need to actually _arrive_ at the location before they catch the main characters...

But Ch 16 is acting as the turning point toward the next step of the plot. The characters are coming up with The Plan that may resolve a large problem they're having. At the moment, though, there is _so much_ dialogue going on while the characters are hashing out this plan. So I need to kind of evaluate this dialogue and see if I can simplify it. If there's too much explanation, then it'll get confusing...

Apart from all that, though, I've been having ideas here and there about fixes to make for earlier chapters lmao.  One piece of feedback I'd gotten about Ch 1 is that I don't have the character's inner struggle established. In some cases, I've heard this referred to as the character's "big lie" that they tell to themself. And I think I know what Micky's big lie is. So I'm peeking back at Ch 1 to see where I might trickle that into some of the narration. I might even mention his siblings' names, as they're very important to him.

Apart from that, there's a demon that appears in an early chapter that gives Micky directions. Now, in Ch 16, I have another demon popping up that's acting like a protective guard for the main characters. I'm starting to wonder if I should just make those two demons be the same one. And then that'll give the story a "call back" type of feel. Not totally sure if I'll do that... but I've left a note about it for future me to consider.


----------



## Envy123

So, my second story Jelly Dogs so far, has far more interest than Laughing Matters. It is something that I didn't expect at first, but then again, Jelly Dogs is a half-baked idea come to life to something fun and accessible.

I'll still query Laughing Matters but this has made me move up Jelly Dogs on my timeline.


----------



## Joker

330 words in two days.

Someone kick my ass, please.


----------



## Parabola

Going back and reading Murder Console book 1 for the first time in ages. It's giving me a needed refresher on Ethan's original philosophy.


----------



## nomdesab

Today's plan - more wrediting on my 45th birthday.  Ha.


----------



## indianroads

nomdesab said:


> Today's plan - more wrediting on my 45th birthday.  Ha.


You're just a child... I turned 68 yesterday.
Happy Birthday!


----------



## nomdesab

indianroads said:


> You're just a child... I turned 68 yesterday.
> Happy Birthday!


Thank you. And happy belated youngin'!


----------



## Parabola

_Like some vermin, he died on the side of the road. The greatest victory that could be said for him was that many of his failures would remain mysteries. He became a fly-ridden, bug-eyed time capsule._

Ok, sure, he's essentially a vessel bloated with shame, and I'd like to explore that at some point, but I get distracted too easily.


----------



## Taylor

I took a vacation from writing for a month with the idea that I would return to the keyboard, on the day after labour day.  Just like back to school.

Cleaned up my desk and put some fresh HB leads and flowers there. I feel like a little kid the night before Christmas ... can't wait!


----------



## Taylor

Joker said:


> 330 words in two days.
> 
> Someone kick my ass, please.


It's quality, not quantity.  Now do another 330 in the next two days.  Is that kickish buttish enough?


----------



## Joker

Taylor said:


> It's quality, not quantity.  Now do another 330 in the next two days.  Is that kickish buttish enough?



Yes, which is why I really need to research more about corporate management for this scene.


----------



## Taylor

Joker said:


> Yes, which is why I really need to research more about corporate management for this scene.


What type of corporation and what country and period?


----------



## indianroads

Joker said:


> 330 words in two days.
> 
> Someone kick my ass, please.


Even the smallest step forward is progress.


----------



## Joker

Taylor said:


> What type of corporation and what country and period?



Biotech. USA. 2070s.


----------



## Taylor

Joker said:


> Biotech. USA. 2070s.


SO cool!  But if it's futuristic, how would you research it?  Would you use current management practices?  Consider if it is a start-up or fully operative, they would be quite different.    Will it involve something scandalous or unethical?

The story of Elizabeth Holmes is an interesting one for research.  There's a great documentary, _Out for Blood in Silicon Valley._


----------



## Joker

Taylor said:


> SO cool!  But if it's futuristic, how would you research it?  Would you use current management practices?  Consider if it is a start-up or fully operative, they would be quite different.    Will it involve something scandalous or unethical?
> 
> The story of Elizabeth Holmes is an interesting one for research.  There's a great documentary, _Out for Blood in Silicon Valley._



Well yes, but the board members don't know it. Dramatic irony or whatever. Rebecca is bleeding the company money because of extortion she has to pay for having her co-founder murdered way back, and blaming it on everyone else for being unimaginative stuffed suits (which is true, but not the reason for the company getting stagnant financially).


----------



## Parabola

Thinking about taking slices of Murder Console and turning them into short stories. Maybe, maybe not.


----------



## Parabola

Juggling a couple projects, or ideas for projects at the moment. I can't help but chase dirty pearls of one-sided wisdom.


----------



## Taylor

While having a conversation with my husband about my writing:

Me:  "I think my prose may be a little too straightforward."

Husband: Trying to help. "People complain about Ernest Hemingway, not giving enough description."

Me: Reads the first paragraph of _The Sun Also Rises. _"Holy s**t!  This guy can write!!!"

Plods on the keyboard,  _Sigh ... _


----------



## Parabola

Apparently, I only used the word "crucible" one time in Murder Console.

“I had the strangest dream about you telling me what you did to Jason,” she said, nearly in tears. Her huge green eyes set me on fire, but it had been a crucible inside of me and not a passionate flame that took on a life of its own.


----------



## Parabola

It's been a while since I've read early sections of MC. Not sure how much Ethan's ideology or whatever has changed. Maybe in certain ways he's become cynical, or more cynical, but then he usually falls back to the same thought process like below.



> The next day, I called Eugene and told him I’d help Mia “get better” (whatever that meant), and it might be a few days before we hung out. He didn’t seem too bothered, and I wondered if I’d lost a friend as well as put my sister in a fragile state of mind.
> 
> I figured this would give me time away from the console. In retrospect, surfing that sea of limitlessness, of having others’ words and actions at my fingertips brought me to the edge of a whirlpool.
> 
> But in a weird way, I felt like I was born to play this console. Made for it. Eugene wouldn’t understand, nor Mom, especially Mia. They couldn’t. The connection became mystical at some point, beyond the reach of rational minds.
> 
> I told myself a few days away would help me recalibrate. I wouldn’t stop gaming. I’d reorient my purpose. If something good came from being the puppet master, then the strings were irrelevant. That’s how people choose to see God, right? I laughed at my own hubris.


----------



## Parabola

Sometimes it takes me a bit to grow into a protag. I like slower intros for this reason, at least for first draft--it gives me time to get more familiar with that viewpoint. With the Leo story, I'm contemplating turning it into a full-length novel. Not sure how I would conceptualize Billy's character, as he was more of a vessel in the shorter version.

Couple problems with expanding this one though.

One reason I'm not sure if I want to do a full-length work with Leo is because I already wrote 2 books, and the majority of a third one this summer. I wanted to complete the Murder Console trilogy in three months (at least the initial pass throughs), but already got side-tracked by The Loser's Labyrinth (completing the first draft of that one in little over two weeks). tl; dr in other words, I get distracted and have the attention span of a fruit fly that's been dead in the fridge for three days.

On top of that, I'm not sure if I want to conceptualize Leo as a horror story, but not sure what other genre I could fit it into. There's a constellation of crap that needs to coalesce before I can hop on this particular saddle.

Do I really want to take on another first draft just for the hell of it?

Yes. Yes I do.

Is it ill-advised?

Yes. Yes it is.


----------



## nomdesab

Today is a notebook writing day because staring at the screen is not getting it done.


----------



## Alanzie

What's on my mind about my writing...wow!  Where do I begin.  I've been working on my story, my first novel, for the past three years.  On and off.  Definitely not giving it the time it deserves.  That, my friends, is another story, however. . .

Why didn't I write my first novel in the current time period, for God's sake?  So much research to make sure dialogue and phrases are correct for 1871.  And 1976.  And 2732.
Why didn't I keep my cast of characters to a few?   I'm about 18 to 20 characters in, and I will meet many more along the way.
Why does my story keep e x p a n d i n g?  I'm a pantser, and every time I think I've got the plot figured out in my head, my damn characters take the path less traveled.
Why did I have to come up with a story that will span 3 books and over nine hundred years (seven hundred and ten of them haven't happened yet). . .with the same characters?  I really wanted this to be one book, a combination of historical horror, Lovecraftian horror, small town horror and science fiction horror.  Too many words for a first timer, so unfortunately, I cannot tell the story complete in one book.
Why did I decide to write a novel?
Help!


----------



## Alanzie

Okay.  I'm going to continue this conversation about my writing.  I'm a first time 'novelist'.  I had a short story published in 2012.  A story I had written in 1985.  Interesting side note.  I wrote this particular story in 1983.  I thought it was good enough to send out into the big bad world of publishing.  I sent it to the 'big boys', Not only 'Twilight Zone' magazine, but also Playboy and Penthouse, because that's where the prestige was, at least to Stephen King who had had many short stories in his 'lean years' published in so called 'Men's magazines'.

I got rejections.  Every one.  I was twenty-six and cocky and said screw 'em.

Twilight Zone magazine said they liked it but they just published something similar.  They said please try again.

I was twenty-six and cocky and said screw 'em.

I put the story in a manilla envelope (you guys remember them?), labeled it 'Axe', and put it in my sock drawer.

Fast forward  twenty-eight years.

I have a son who is my alpha-reader.  Michael was in college at the time and was an English major.  He was home for the weekend.  He needed a pair of socks.  Guess what he found?

He said I should clean it up a little.  Make it relevant.  He said, even in its imperfection, that it was good.

I cleaned it up.  The main character, whose important trait is that he is a father, was written BEFORE I became a father.  My perception of the main character was now 'honest'.  I rewrote it and sold to the first place I submitted to.  The title changed from 'Axe' to Norman Rockwell is Dead.

That gave me the bug.  Bad.  I thought it was time for something else.  Something bigger.  A novel.  A horror novel at that.  (It should be noted here that I am a member of the 'Horror Writers Association, but at the lowest level.  They didn't count my short story being published because I received a minimum payment for the publication that did not meet their 'minimum standards', but I still think it's an important organization and I know that I will benefit from their eventual support).  I was still a published author, damnit...and I got paid for it!  But it gave me the bug.  Bad.

I had three ideas I was fiddling with for about two years.  5,000 words here, 10,000 words there.  I wasn't committing to one idea and my wife let me know.  She said pick an idea already...and write it.  

And so I am.

This is where my problem comes in.  I've been told I can write, and write well.  I came up with an incredible idea and I am trying to tell this story.  I'm about 38K in, eight chapters.  The story is there, but being a 'first timer', I'm trying to learn the craft as I write this.  I think I'm doing okay.  Great really.  And then. . .

The doubt sets in.  I start to ask myself why a 65 year old guy thinks he can actually create a piece of work that tells this story he concocted and now has to tell.  Who am I to think I can get a NOVEL published...and traditionally, at that!  I'm just a 65 year old, not yet retired guy with a bum wrist.  I actually had three wrist bones removed.  I keep them in a jar on my desk...just kidding, I am a horror writer after all.

I mentioned my son, Michael.  He is my alpha reader, and the coolest guy in the room.  He knows writing.  He knows horror.  He says I have something here...and I hear him...I really do.  He tells me the good and the bad.  I trust his judgement and opinion.  It's nice to have a different generation tell me my story needs to be told.

How do you other 'first timers' get over the self-doubt.  And don't tell me you don't have it.

I'm looking for a community of first time novelists to share our joys and our woes.  We need to push each other, or we will never get the 'novel' thing done.


----------



## indianroads

Insecurity is always there for me, but it’s reduced with each novel I write and publish; I doubt it will ever vanish, but in time it has become manageable.

I think you’ve found a good place for yourself here at WF.


----------



## VRanger

Alanzie said:


> I'm looking for a community of first time novelists to share our joys and our woes.  We need to push each other, or we will never get the 'novel' thing done.


There are a lot of first time novelists here, but there are also a lot of experienced novelists to encourage them that they CAN finish, can improve, and how to do both.


----------



## Alanzie

VRanger said:


> There are a lot of first time novelists here, but there are also a lot of experienced novelists to encourage them that they CAN finish, can improve, and how to do both.


I want to be a part of this community.  I think I have barely tapped into it and I'm looking forward to any support I can get...and vice versa.


----------



## VRanger

Alanzie said:


> I want to be a part of this community.  I think I have barely tapped into it and I'm looking forward to any support I can get...and vice versa.


Yeah, you've had a gap of sometimes years between posting here, but you're going to find it's a COMPLETELY different place and atmosphere than even a few years ago. We've got SO MANY great authors who've thrown their hat into our ring just in the last couple of years who have not only a lot of experience, but act as mentors and are very supportive.


----------



## Alanzie

indianroads said:


> Insecurity is always there for me, but it’s reduced with each novel I write and publish; I doubt it will ever vanish, but in time it has become manageable.
> 
> I think you’ve found a good place for yourself here at WF.


I drop on occasionally.  Make a post here and there.   Really hope I'm making a difference, but I don't participate as frequently as I should, so I still feel like I'm doing it alone.  I'm ready to take it to the next step and really utilize this forum to help push me through the hellacious endeavor of writing a novel and in return, I think I'm good enough to offer suggestions and support honestly and appropriately.   Let's do this thing!


----------



## Alanzie

VRanger said:


> Yeah, you've had a gap of sometimes years between posting here, but you're going to find it's a COMPLETELY different place and atmosphere than even a few years ago. We've got SO MANY great authors who've thrown their hat into our ring just in the last couple of years who have not only a lot of experience, but act as mentors and are very supportive.


Thank you for your reply.  I am looking forward to having your input as I go through this roller coaster ride in my head.


----------



## Alanzie

Okay, Guys...where do I go from here?  As I get to know you and understand that you are going through the same things I am going through, can I message any of you for advice?  Nothing Earth shattering, but an occasional 'what do you think' kind of thing.  Also, I am kinda active.  I've had a gap in the past, but I've put in my 2 cents worth more this year than most.  Maybe I'm ready to take this thing more seriously.


----------



## Alanzie

indianroads said:


> Insecurity is always there for me, but it’s reduced with each novel I write and publish; I doubt it will ever vanish, but in time it has become manageable.
> 
> I think you’ve found a good place for yourself here at WF.


Just the phrase "with each novel'" boggles my mind.  High congratulations!


----------



## VRanger

Alanzie said:


> Just the phrase "with each novel'" boggles my mind.  High congratulations!


Once you finish the first novel that opens the floodgates. 

While you can message people privately, it's better for the site as a whole to engage in questions and discussion in places like this "Writing Discussion" forum. That way more ideas can flow in, and more writers can access the discussion and tips.

If you want to get the notice of particular members, using the @ symbol before their site handle tags them into the post ... but be sure to click their handle in the drop down list to do that. Just typing out the complete handle doesn't work.


----------



## Alanzie

This was one of those days.  My wife's at my daughter's, I'm home alone, a glass of whisky on my desk.  I close out Scrivner and rejoice that I was up until 3:30 am writing!


----------



## VRanger

Alanzie said:


> This was one of those days.  My wife's at my daughter's, I'm home alone, a glass of whisky on my desk.  I close out Scrivner and rejoice that I was up until 3:30 am writing!


I often sip port or brandy as I write.  And mostly I don't get productive until after midnight. We're in the same time zone, AND I also draft in Scrivner for solo work. @PiP and I are writing a collaborative series we draft in shared Google Docs.


----------



## indianroads

VRanger said:


> I often sip port or brandy as I write.  And mostly I don't get productive until after midnight. We're in the same time zone, AND I also draft in Scrivner for solo work. @PiP and I are writing a collaborative series we draft in shared Google Docs.


Coffee, iced or hot, is my beverage of choice. When I start writing varies; usually, I sit down at 10 AM ish, but on training days it begins at 2 PM. My day ends at 6 PM so I can have dinner with my wife.


----------



## Taylor

Alanzie said:


> This was one of those days.  My wife's at my daughter's, I'm home alone, a glass of whisky on my desk.  I close out Scrivner and rejoice that I was up until 3:30 am writing!





VRanger said:


> I often sip port or brandy as I write.  And mostly I don't get productive until after midnight. We're in the same time zone, AND I also draft in Scrivner for solo work. @PiP and I are writing a collaborative series we draft in shared Google Docs.





indianroads said:


> Coffee, iced or hot, is my beverage of choice. When I start writing varies; usually, I sit down at 10 AM ish, but on training days it begins at 2 PM. My day ends at 6 PM so I can have dinner with my wife.



For me, it's a nice cup of tea!  I sit at the computer between 8:00 am and 5:00.  Hopefully, some useful writing happens.


----------



## Parabola

This might be my most likeable protag, which isn't saying much. All of them have been rat bastards.


----------



## Taylor

My dream job?  Working on the script for the TV series, _Devils._


----------



## Envy123

Laughing Matters had a very tiny amount of old material to work with. Jelly Dogs, however, I had nothing written down and instead, I remember a few scenes and that's it.

I use a mixture of reading other MG books, watching my favourite shows and a bit of AI - and it's coming together nicely now.


----------



## Parabola

_Leo_ can go in a few directions. Still, more vaguely I'd like keep a smaller scope initially, then unwind it allowing for that "epic feel." Beyond that concern, Billy is a wholesome, likeable enough sort, but I can't forget to give him an edge. Does jealousy make a character unlikable? Especially a dude? Well, if nothing else I plan to keep the volume turned down on it.

He's humble enough to work on his flaws.


----------



## Parabola

My ATHF fanfic is progressing well. It's entitled "Alejandro" and the premise is Carl gets obsessed with the song Alejandro, playing it extremely loudly and driving his neighbors insane. Frylock wakes from a "dream" that he broke int Carl's house and slaughtered him, only to find out it wasn't a dream. 

That's all I have so far.


----------



## Arsenex

This is a few days old, but my sipping beverage of choice of late has been that health scourge they call Mountain Dew. Just so I can label it as healthy, I add in grape or apple juice to the tune of about one quarter. Ah <another sip>. I can feel my arteries hardening as I type.


----------



## Arsenex

Today's word of the day has been keywords. I'm trying to optimize mine for categories as well as search. And it's a deep deep rabbit hole should you choose to go in. And every self-pubbed author should spend some time in there. If people can't find your book it gets really hard to make any sales. You've already put all this work into making it, you should probably spend an equal amount of time making it visible (marketing, bleh. There. I said it.)


----------



## Parabola

I looked up certain episodes to get the vibe/delivery/running commentary in my head (later seasons were far from the same level with the natural seeming absurdism). Plus, with fanfic, or at least my version of, there are few rules and I can put my own "spin" on it. Just a nice exercise/diversion.


----------



## indianroads

Arsenex said:


> Today's word of the day has been keywords. I'm trying to optimize mine for categories as well as search. And it's a deep deep rabbit hole should you choose to go in. And every self-pubbed author should spend some time in there. If people can't find your book it gets really hard to make any sales. You've already put all this work into making it, you should probably spend an equal amount of time making it visible (marketing, bleh. There. I said it.)


Something I've not done much of, but intend to do more. Thanks!


----------



## Envy123

Jelly Dogs turned into a horror story pretty quickly. But since it has talking animals, it cannot be for adults if I want to get it traditionally published. Can things, like everyone else disappearing from the world and nightmares of MC's mum turning into a vampire, still be good for MG? Or are talking animals fine for YA?


----------



## Explosia

Edit complete for Ch 17. The chapter features what is essentially a Lovecraftian eldritch horror. I am pleased.  I am even more excited that I can probably go back to an earlier chapter or two and put some more of that Junji Ito style horror in there. That "call of the void" type of phenomenon that urges the body to move against the mind's logic. Weeeeeeeeeee. 



Envy123 said:


> Jelly Dogs turned into a horror story pretty quickly. But since it has talking animals, it cannot be for adults if I want to get it traditionally published. Can things, like everyone else disappearing from the world and nightmares of MC's mum turning into a vampire, still be good for MG? Or are talking animals fine for YA?



The main character of my WIP is basically a talking animal. Well, he's a talking demon, really. And I absolutely do not want to publish it as YA. So, guess I'll be finding out along with you whether the talking animal trope can ever break free of the YA expectation... I am absolutely hoping so for a variety of reasons, but the main one is that I don't think my story works if the main characters are all teenagers. I realized why that's the case. I need the characters to have enough independence and autonomy to be able to travel long distances. That's just one reason among many, at least.

As far as I understand it, the story becomes YA if the main character is anywhere between 14 - 18 years old.  As for dark MG stories, though, look no further than _Coraline_. Kids' stories can get pretty dark. But I think it also depends on the level of maturity you put into the story. Not so much like "everybody gets drunk" or something. But more like, is the theme teasing existentialism and mortality, or any odd little thing like that?

Also, _Hollow Kingdom_ by Kira Jane Buxton features a talking crow as the main character. It also includes a zombie apocalypse, and it is an adult fiction story.  So... you can get away with talking animals in adult fiction... if they're foul-mouthed and crude, I suppose.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

I'm intending to finish '_We Are 1'_ and put it forward for publication or see if there are any competitions out there it would suit. This means treating it more seriously and derailing my novel (yet again) but I think it's worth it. I'm also considering expanding at a later date because there's lots to explore. That's what's holding me up at the moment. How much to tell, summarise and omit in order to keep it under a certain word count, while still maintaining a coherent and complete short story. I've been reading and studying Mick Herron and J. G. Ballard a lot lately because I find the tone they set fits nicely into the tone I want for my story.


----------



## nomdesab

I've been feeling ill the last couple days. Hopefully I don't feel like I got slammed by a semi tomorrow.

Also the first day of my advanced fiction writing class has me contemplating the difference between story and plot.


----------



## Envy123

Explosia said:


> But more like, is the theme teasing existentialism and mortality, or any odd little thing like that?


Yes, exactly. Thank you.


----------



## nomdesab

Writing for thought: "often the best way to show us your protagonist's feelings is through physical actions. In other words, you reveal story [emotional] through plot [physical]. Let your protagonist cry those real tears. That physical action in the plot reveals the underlying emotional story."

Also I really like this simplification of the three-act structure:


https://ibb.co/FwxmCm3

Can someone help me out with how to embed images?? Haha.


----------



## Parabola

Not sure how I feel about ironic/absurdist writing. Sure, I've done it like any human does things in private they wouldn't admit to in public. My thoughts on the subject end there. 

Okay. I've thought about it some more. 

I read stuff from (aspiring?) ironic/absurdist writers. Honestly? Seems dry, boring like "I'm trying to be a literary edgelord." It reads like they "went to the right schools" but lacks an intuitive flair.


----------



## indianroads

What's on my mind is that writing is HARD, but it's also an act of love.

Hemingway was right, we sit down and bleed onto the page, baring our most intimate thoughts, fears, and desires, opening ourselves to ridicule by others without the courage and tenacity to do what we do. Yet, we soldier on through long hours before the keyboard, worrying about diction, pace, timing, character and story arcs and many more things that our readers are unaware of.

I'm starting my second editing pass of Moonscape; only through one chapter in so far, and I was up until 2am working on it. Now, with a deep breath, I'm diving in again. Wish me luck... no, there's no such thing, only courage and the fortitude to not give up.


----------



## Explosia

I'm Frankensteining Ch 18, and this one's a bit trickier, because I have to write an entirely new scene on the fly... so I'm trying to plot that scene out, too.

On FB, I found a call for submissions for some publication that's looking for horror novellas. Its word requirement is 17.5 - 40k words. And I in fact have a 14k "short story" that I've been trying to figure out what to do with for a while. So now, that thing is floating in the back of my mind, and this time, instead of making cuts, I have to add more to it! And man, how liberating is it to be able to _add more_ rather than to keep shaving things down to size.  But now, my brain is at odds with itself, because the submissions open on Oct. 1 .... but I told myself I'd get this Big Edit done by the end of September and now, ugh, I'm not sure if I'll tap the brakes on my current WIP for this other thing or not. I'm getting so close to the end, but ugggggh....

EDIT: OH WAIT... the submissions are open from Oct until December, I MIGHT BE ABLE TO MAKE THAT...........


----------



## Parabola

I like to read things with a raw creativity that inspire me. Sometimes it's frustrating when I pick up something with a veneer of nuance due to an author wanting to display some educational attainment rather than something that would stimulate a cerebral response (so an example would be something of exceptional creativity, or maybe it has an incredible level of detail which causes you to think almost automatically).


----------



## PencilPusher

One of my greater challenges is finding different ways to say the same thing. And this difficulty is exacerbated by the fact I shun adverbs. So, how do I write, "John walked stealthily/slowly/carefully/hesitatingly to the shed" without using adverbs or words I've used before? I do accomplish this, but man, it slows my writing down to a crawl when looking for alternatives.


----------



## Explosia

PencilPusher said:


> One of my greater challenges is finding different ways to say the same thing. And this difficulty is exacerbated by the fact I shun adverbs. So, how do I write, "John walked stealthily/slowly/carefully/hesitatingly to the shed" without using adverbs or words I've used before? I do accomplish this, but man, it slows my writing down to a crawl when looking for alternatives.



The first go-to is to dig into verbs rather than adverbs; e.g., John skipped along the trail. John hurried to the door. John scrambled to the train. 

Second is sentence structure. Can you shake things up by using a varied sentence format? "In a scramble, John barely made it onto the train."

Lastly, is it fully necessary to mention that John walked? Can this simply be implicated by the fact that he's now where he needs to be? "John came upon the trail and saw a tree at the end of it. He reached the tree in a matter of minutes."

Apart from all that, I agree on the slow down! That's what makes writing such a challenge. If I'm trying to just get a draft down on paper, I'll use that repeat phrasing just to keep myself moving, with the intention that I'll go back and rephrase those sentences later during edits.


----------



## Parabola

Some days, I wonder if god will strike me down with a foam finger. Please? Make it quick. As long as I make it to my version of purgatory, I'm good.


----------



## Parabola

Pulling into coherence the "subjective" strains of reasoning.


----------



## Explosia

One thing I like to do is drop friends of mine as cameos into my story. No big parts. Just passing by, like extras on a movie set, for funsies. My WIP contains Fae, and I'm basing my Fae appearances on descriptions of them found in folklore. So I decided to ask my friends in our group chat to give me descriptions of what they think they'd look like as Fae creatures. Got no bites. I don't think anyone is really interested lol. Ah well. It was just a fun thing I wanted to try.


----------



## Arsenex

Explosia said:


> One thing I like to do is drop friends of mine as cameos into my story. No big parts. Just passing by, like extras on a movie set, for funsies. My WIP contains Fae, and I'm basing my Fae appearances on descriptions of them found in folklore. So I decided to ask my friends in our group chat to give me descriptions of what they think they'd look like as Fae creatures. Got no bites. I don't think anyone is really interested lol. Ah well. It was just a fun thing I wanted to try.


I have a number of freinds and coworkers spread throughout my books. My dermatologist even has a character. lol.


----------



## indianroads

I wrote my best friend into _The Last Dragon_. He doesn't read books, so I had to tell him. He was pleased and bragged about it... but I don't think he read it.


----------



## Explosia

@Arsenex @indianroads  - Yeah, I don't think my friends are going to read this thing, but y'know, sometimes you just need to grab somebody to fill a role.


----------



## bdcharles

My goal for this year is to finish the followup to _The Story of Echo_. I've got maybe twenty to thirty thousand words left. Then I will edit and send out to beta readers.

It would be so much easier if I didn't keep second-guessing/doubting/hating it :O But I've told myself to focus now. Time to get it done.


----------



## Envy123

Borrowing storytelling from good TV shows in novel writing, may actually be a good thing and I'll continue doing it. But I'll still borrow the actual prose writing from other books.


----------



## nomdesab

..


----------



## PencilPusher

The reasons writing is extremely difficult for me are as follows.

1. I had a stroke 10 years ago. Since then, my memory has been ebbing. One day, I'm going to ride my bike down to Safeway and somebody's to say, "Buddy, where's your clothes?"

2. I suffer from PTSD, bipolar disorder and undiagnosed ADHD. I can't sit still. Editing my novel was torturous. And because stopped drinking a year ago, I have nothing to keep my behind still.


----------



## Parabola

Wrote a decent chunk in _Leo._ I have two of the three "worlds" more or less figured out, and the third is floating somewhere below them in a haze. No rush, since I plan to complete this journey of a thousand miles in half-steps, maybe setting up camp after every twenty.

On top of that, Billy isn't going anywhere right away. Things in the cul-de-sac are just heating up. Maybe he'll get a quick preview of one of the worlds, but that's it.


----------



## Parabola

I'm a little torn. _Leo_ (working title) is getting to the point where the concept is ready to flow outward, which means I've entered the experimenting phase. What fun. On the other hand, I've been neglecting Murder Console: Apocalypse Beta. Maybe I'll write in both today.


----------



## Parabola

Back in MC2 today. Ethan's voice is exaggerated (for plot reasons) but still him. The ending still feels a little "up in the air" yet I've known for a month where it's going overall. The devil is in the details, and he really wants me to sin.


----------



## Alanzie

PencilPusher said:


> One of my greater challenges is finding different ways to say the same thing. And this difficulty is exacerbated by the fact I shun adverbs. So, how do I write, "John walked stealthily/slowly/carefully/hesitatingly to the shed" without using adverbs or words I've used before? I do accomplish this, but man, it slows my writing down to a crawl when looking for alternatives.


I suffered from the same adverbfliction.  Fortunately, in Scrivner, I can highlight a word and go directly to Thesaurus.com  And then...
I started realizing I can do away with adverbs by using action and narration.  For example,
'John walked to the shed, careful in his step.  The snapping of twig here, the rustle of a stepped on pile of leaves there.  He didn't want to alert them.  Didn't want them to know he was coming.'

alzie

Okay.  I put this reply in the wrong place.  I wanted to put it up by PencilPusher's post...but I can't delete it or move it...or can I.  Any thoughts???


----------



## Envy123

Laughing Matter is polarising for my target audience (for dark fantasy readers). This makes it difficult to find beta readers for my work (I do have some but the struggle is there). Jelly Dogs, however, doesn't seem to have that issue so far. I'm unsure what to do, so I'm getting more feedback on Jelly Dogs and I'll see from there.


----------



## Parabola

MC2 will probably end at around 90k, making it my longest work.


----------



## Vera

indianroads said:


> What's on my mind is that writing is HARD, but it's also an act of love.


Ain't that the truth!

Here's the thing, I knew writing would be hard, but what I wasn't prepared for was the constant state of uncertainty.

Every time I finish something--a sentence, a scene, a novel!--I toggle between "oh, not bad!" and "wtf, is this even English?"  It's gotten to the point where I am 100% less confident about writing now than when I started a year ago.


----------



## Taylor

Vera said:


> Every time I finish something--a sentence, a scene, a novel!--I toggle between "oh, not bad!" and "wtf, is this even English?"  It's gotten to the point where I am 100% less confident about writing now than when I started a year ago.



I think this is common, especially when you hang around these forums. LOL!   When I started writing fiction, I was a competent business writer.  For the first 40k words, I was quite pleased.  Then I learned that in fiction, competence is not enough.  There are higher expectations, and 'rules,' above and beyond basic SPAG.  People even suggested that one should throw away their first 200k words.  For me, that would be two years' worth and two novels.  No sir—not doing that! 

Now I'm more critical of my diction, but I don't let it consume me.  I continue to listen to advice and improve but accept where I am today. 

Can I ask what aspect rattles your confidence?  Sentence structure, plotlines, or something else?


----------



## Vera

Taylor said:


> I think this is common, especially when you hang around these forums. LOL!   When I started writing fiction, I was a competent business writer.  For the first 40k words, I was quite pleased.  Then I learned that in fiction, competence is not enough.  There are higher expectations, and 'rules,' above and beyond basic SPAG.  People even suggested that one should throw away their first 200k words.  For me, that would be two years' worth and two novels.  No sir—not doing that!
> 
> Now I'm more critical of my diction, but I don't let it consume me.  I continue to listen to advice and improve but accept where I am today.
> 
> Can I ask what aspect rattles your confidence?  Sentence structure, plotlines, or something else?



D.  All of the above.

It just depends on the time of day, blood-sugar levels, barometric pressure, etc...

But seriously, I think I'm most critical at the sentence level and then from there it's character development.  I'll be thinking, 'oh, that's a nice line, really shows who this character is,' then I'll come back and scrub it all because ICK. 

What are your novels about?  Did you do significant rewrites, cause in that case they may be more than your first 200K words (I count rewrites as part of the word count  )


----------



## Taylor

Vera said:


> D.  All of the above.
> 
> It just depends on the time of day, blood-sugar levels, barometric pressure, etc...


That I can understand.  LOL!



Vera said:


> But seriously, I think I'm most critical at the sentence level and then from there it's character development.  I'll be thinking, 'oh, that's a nice line, really shows who this character is,' then I'll come back and scrub it all because ICK.


Not sure what ICK means, but it sounds like you see it differently depending on your mood.

It makes me remember when I used to head up a fashion design team. We would spend six months traveling to major centers for inspiration and then designing over 200 styles to sell our collection.  Sometimes by the time we got well into it, my perspective would change, because of course, there's always new information.  I would make the team change things, and it was costly, time-consuming, and frustrating for them.  When I think back on it now, I cringe.  And what's more, I'll never know if the changes were an improvement.

Over the years I have learned to control these urges.  One can always tweak, but *trust yourself*, that if you liked it yesterday or an hour ago, it's still good.



Vera said:


> What are your novels about?  Did you do significant rewrites, cause in that case they may be more than your first 200K words (I count rewrites as part of the word count  )


I'm writing a trilogy that takes place in three major U.S. cities.  The bases for the stories are real-life financial/industrial cases.   I love reading non-fiction, so I use biographies and corporate histories as my inspiration.  So, it's somewhat educational, but I ice it all with romance and humour.

I'll remember that about the rewrites.  Thanks!


----------



## Vera

Taylor said:


> That I can understand.  LOL!
> 
> 
> Not sure what ICK means, but it sounds like you see it differently depending on your mood.



Haha! ICK is just "ick" but in all caps to fully capture the disgust. 

As an aside, I'm always fascinated to catch snippets of people's lives on this forum.  So many cool careers, or just off-the-beaten-path journeys that ultimately led to writing.


----------



## indianroads

Vera said:


> Every time I finish something--a sentence, a scene, a novel!--I toggle between "oh, not bad!" and "wtf, is this even English?"  It's gotten to the point where I am 100% less confident about writing now than when I started a year ago.


Writing can be likened to climbing a mountain. 
Standing at the base and looking up, it doesn't seem too difficult. But halfway up your opinion will change.
Writing is really tough, it takes sacrifice and discipline to do it.

Ages ago, someone told me that creative goals (art, writing a book, or living a happy life) can be likened to a yardstick. The first foot comes fairly easy, the second foot is harder, and the difficulty increases as you go through the last foot... and that last quarter inch is nearly impossible to attain - and many work on that last bit their entire lives and never quite get there.

In my life I've done some sculpture and painting; and now I write (obviously). Through those rigors I've come to believe that no work of art is perfect, because perfection is unattainable. What we create is a reflection of ourselves at this moment, and as we create more art (write more books) we refine our skills. Your second book will always be written better than your first, and your third will be better than your second.

If you wait for perfection on your first novel, you'll never publish.


----------



## Parabola

In my defense, it's titled "The Murder Console" and Ethan only flips his noodle at the end. I'm hoping I made it clear he's an unreliable narrator.


----------



## JBF

Vera said:


> Ain't that the truth!
> 
> Here's the thing, I knew writing would be hard, but what I wasn't prepared for was the constant state of uncertainty.
> 
> Every time I finish something--a sentence, a scene, a novel!--I toggle between "oh, not bad!" and "wtf, is this even English?"  It's gotten to the point where I am 100% less confident about writing now than when I started a year ago.



When you begin, you know.

When you gain experience, you know what you know.

When you put this experience into practice, you begin to realize you don't know how little you know.

Which is to say, in a roundabout way, that the better you get the worse you seem.  But doubt is beneficial.  Doubt, and the relentless sort of self-scrutiny that follows along, will make you your own harshest critic.  This is good.  This means your analytical mind has begun to calibrate itself, and you have moved from the act of _production _to the vastly more complex but infinitely more rewarding _refinement.  _

The far target of _perfection _will ever be elusive....but achievement is more the journey than the destination, and probably none of us would know what to do if we ran out the rainbow and found the pot of gold, anyway.


----------



## Envy123

According to feedback from one person, it seems that my MC isn’t as relatable as the side characters, but adding another arc would inflate the word count over 120k. Not sure if I should risk letting it slide?

I was suggested to add a whole new arc, as otherwise, my MC isn’t really in danger.

I’m at 110k words and no beta reader told me of things to cut.


----------



## VRanger

Envy123 said:


> According to feedback from one person, it seems that my MC isn’t as relatable as the side characters, but adding another arc would inflate the word count over 120k. Not sure if I should risk letting it slide?
> 
> I was suggested to add a whole new arc, as otherwise, my MC isn’t really in danger.
> 
> I’m at 110k words and no beta reader told me of things to cut.


It's not required you take feedback from one reader as gospel. In fact, it's not even a good idea, unless it's also obvious to you.

I just related in a conversation that my MCs tend to be Everyman, and most of my color comes from secondary characters. That keeps me from exhausting readers with quirks from the MC, and I can drop secondaries in as I need them for various dramatic or humorous requirements.


----------



## Envy123

VRanger said:


> It's not required you take feedback from one reader as gospel. In fact, it's not even a good idea, unless it's also obvious to you.
> 
> I just related in a conversation that my MCs tend to be Everyman, and most of my color comes from secondary characters. That keeps me from exhausting readers with quirks from the MC, and I can drop secondaries in as I need them for various dramatic or humorous requirements.


Thank you 

I think I'll add some more inner conflicts, but I think I'll just have the MC as average. Going over 120k in debut fantasy is a no-go.


----------



## Parabola

I'll ride this authentic, withered horse right off a cliff. Why? "Because reasons."


----------



## Envy123

Keeping old content is a great thing. Looks like I’ll need to repurpose a scrapped arc, where my MC tries out for the football team but fails. It should make him more relatable and it will tie easily into the existing sports storyline later on.


----------



## Liberty1976

I think about not having enough time to write. I do most of it on my desktop at home where I'm comfortable and can think.  Most of the time I have these bursts of creative thoughts when I am not home or I am home but don't have time to do it.  The story I'm writing is already in my head.  It would be nice to finish the book , get it published and make enough money to quit my job to have all the time in the world to write and even create images to include in the book. I plan on having some CGI in my book since it's science fiction.


----------



## indianroads

VRanger said:


> It's not required you take feedback from one reader as gospel. In fact, it's not even a good idea, unless it's also obvious to you.
> 
> I just related in a conversation that my MCs tend to be Everyman, and most of my color comes from secondary characters. That keeps me from exhausting readers with quirks from the MC, and I can drop secondaries in as I need them for various dramatic or humorous requirements.


I’ve been told that all our characters are different aspects of ourselves… which, if you think about it, is kinda troubling.


----------



## VRanger

indianroads said:


> I’ve been told that all our characters are different aspects of ourselves… which, if you think about it, is kinda troubling.


It would be. Not true, though. I'm not a heroic sword fighter, but I've written a bunch of them. In D&D, I tended to play a ranger so I could stand in the back and shoot arrows, and had a clear path to retreat when necessary. ;-)

I've written characters that had certain aspects of friends, and then I've written characters that I don't have the foggiest notion where their inspiration came from.

Yes, I write characters that have a piece of me here and there, but they're by far outnumbered by characters who don't.


----------



## nomdesab

Popping in to share this from my writing class. Happy Thursday all!

"The main character is, by definition, your Protagonist. But that doesn't mean he's the good guy. The story is about the Protagonist, regardless of his or her actions. 'Pro' doesn't mean 'good,' it means 'for.' And 'anti' doesn't mean 'bad,' it means 'against.' So the Protagonist works for a goal (good or bad) and the Antagonist works against it".


----------



## Parabola

Just realized MC2 is taking on a sort of "Fight Club" tone at the end, by that I mean machismo-violence glorification. Although for Ethan, this exaggerated aggressive state is only temporary. I mean, pretty much everyone gets humbled by apocalyptic sands anyway.


----------



## Parabola

> Other games were featured, but they receded to the larger picture of the showcase event being epic, massive in scale. Werewolves on horses holding muskets in the air at their perceived enemies, astronauts spinning planets like basketballs, even my mush zombies, terrifying and bleak reminders of a not-too-distant future that I held in the palm of my hand…everything was pitch perfect.



Just wrote this as part of the final chapter. Now I'm tempted to write about werewolves with muskets, but that'll have to be down the line. At least I get to write about mush zombies for now.


----------



## Envy123

I'll work on the Laughing Matters sequel that I planned, but I think I'll query that as a first book, with the first story being a prequel. Being faithful to the original material, things only pick up a good speed in the second season/book. There's a single villain and more consequences for failure. And things are more hooky in the beginning and middle.

It'd be sad to let go of the prequel and people did generally like it enough to read until the end. But it's more difficult to query well and I'm unsure if it can likely get my foot in the door. It seems to be possible to pitch this as a prequel, and this will give me time to polish the prequel further to try to lessen the issues it has.


----------



## Parabola

So much ground to cover in the final stretch.


----------



## Explosia

Envy123 said:


> According to feedback from one person, it seems that my MC isn’t as relatable as the side characters, but adding another arc would inflate the word count over 120k. Not sure if I should risk letting it slide?
> 
> I was suggested to add a whole new arc, as otherwise, my MC isn’t really in danger.
> 
> I’m at 110k words and no beta reader told me of things to cut.


I think I'm actually having this problem with my main character. And to relay a confession of sorts, I think it's because I don't really have him fully fleshed out, and it's showing. 

So, while poking around YouTube and "Save the Cat" type of writing books, I'm learning that one thing that can help to flesh your MC out more is to figure out what their "Big Lie" is. What is the untruth that your character is convinced of that he needs to unlearn? In my MC's case, he thinks that he's lowly and inadequate. I'm trying to weave this insecurity into more of the narration, having him muse more on memories of himself and his siblings (who he sees as "doing better" in life than he is). 

By the end of the story, I'm hoping that this insecurity dovetails into his learning to ask for and accept help when he needs it. I'm not making it a big huge thing; again, I'm just sprinkling it into the cracks wherever I can fit it. 

Also, in terms of word count, a few weeks back, indianroads had mentioned to me that the word count can be shaved down more when you do future editing passes. I'm finding that to be true! When going back to previous chapters, I ended up shaving 100 more words from two of them, and that gave me room to add in my MC's insecure musings. So go back and do some line editing here and there. It may also help!


----------



## Envy123

Explosia said:


> I think I'm actually having this problem with my main character. And to relay a confession of sorts, I think it's because I don't really have him fully fleshed out, and it's showing.
> 
> So, while poking around YouTube and "Save the Cat" type of writing books, I'm learning that one thing that can help to flesh your MC out more is to figure out what their "Big Lie" is. What is the untruth that your character is convinced of that he needs to unlearn? In my MC's case, he thinks that he's lowly and inadequate. I'm trying to weave this insecurity into more of the narration, having him muse more on memories of himself and his siblings (who he sees as "doing better" in life than he is).
> 
> By the end of the story, I'm hoping that this insecurity dovetails into his learning to ask for and accept help when he needs it. I'm not making it a big huge thing; again, I'm just sprinkling it into the cracks wherever I can fit it.
> 
> Also, in terms of word count, a few weeks back, indianroads had mentioned to me that the word count can be shaved down more when you do future editing passes. I'm finding that to be true! When going back to previous chapters, I ended up shaving 100 more words from two of them, and that gave me room to add in my MC's insecure musings. So go back and do some line editing here and there. It may also help!


I ended up having my MC being rejected by the football team, then tie that to the existing sports storyline when he gets accepted by the diving team. At least something and word count didn't go up that much.

Word count actually went up during editing passes, as beta readers wanted more content and things to be fleshed out more. I'm firmly at 110k words and I want to err on the side of caution. All scenes that were irrelevant were cut out, sadly.


----------



## Parabola

Just finished first draft of MC2 at slightly over 90k. I wrote the last 1k in Eugene's voice.  Honestly, I was hesitant at first, but I think it will be refreshing to write from his point of view in book 3. He has far better impulse control than Ethan, relies on sarcasm considerably more, and he has a much broader and historical view of the world. At least that's how I've conceived of him consciously.


----------



## Explosia

So, I've hit a little bit of a snag at the moment. I need to write up a conjuration scene, but the trouble is that I already have two other similar conjuration scenes. I'm trying to figure out how to write this out again while still making it different from the other two times... in actuality, I should probably cut one of the three conjuration segments but meeeh... let me see if I can figure out how to put some oomfah in this third one first. 

I'm turning to movies I've seen to see if I might maybe make a homage or two.


----------



## Explosia

Give it up, I am in the "Just Sit Down and Write It" club today, the conjuring scene is writteeeeeeen!! 

Although I'm still not thrilled about it.... Who knows what fate it will suffer in the next round of edits, but for now, at least, I can finally move forward.


----------



## Parabola

Just letting Eugene's character coalesce a bit. The other thing is that book 3's plot was supposed to be centered on Ethan. I decided to challenge myself with a new voice, even though I have to re-think various aspects of the plot because of the switch.


----------



## Parabola

"The fact that you take everything I say literally breaks my heart."
"What?"


----------



## Parabola

Just realized certain bits much earlier in the book foreshadowed Ethan's aggression toward the end.




> Shadow mode came over me like a dangerous cloak of temporary madness. I saw the sky slant to greenness and concrete and endless, spiraling blue. I floated along the pavement, the frightened looks on the passersby made me want to hurt them more.
> 
> The streak of utter sadism. I wanted to hurt someone. I wanted to damage Eugene’s soul like he just did mine–permanently. No, there was more buried there, unearthed by me trying to stifle those feelings for the mere span of minutes which were like eternal suffering.
> 
> I had the urge to annihilate someone, wipe them off this tributary map for good. None of them would exist here if it wasn’t for me. I owned them, could crush every one of these mindless denizens in the palm of my shadowy hand.


----------



## Explosia

Ch 18, 4700 words.  As things stand now, I have enough room for four chapters left. 

Will I be able to wrap this whole thing up in four chapters??????  Uhhhhhh........ 

Roughly speaking, I want the next chapter to be a Quiet Time for the characters. This would be the scenes where the characters have that important turning-point style dialogue. Maybe there's a resolution. A confession. But I feel like I have multiple options... ooofffff.... decisions..... I need to do some thinking...


----------



## Super Fantasy

My second book, its quite a difficult book to write.


----------



## Envy123

Jelly Dogs seems to be more interesting to beta readers than Laughing Matters. With a first chapter sample. I'm getting feedback on the first 8 chapters already.

Maybe I should work on that story more, as it seems to have higher chances in general.


----------



## nomdesab

What penetrated Sab's brain today? Well this....

"I encourage my students to write their story outlines in present tense and then switch to past tense for the long form. Why? Using present tense for the outline reminds us to be brief, while using past tense for the long form is more standard."


----------



## Explosia

ughhh, I'm not entirely sure what I'm doing with Ch 19...  I have a moving, emotional conversation thing happening. But I don't know if it's panning out right. After that, more things happen, but I'm not exactly sure how to _resolve_ those things. I think I should have someone fire a gun, though, just for funsies. 

But otherwise, though, yeah, I'm not entirely sure exactly how I want the events in this chapter to unfold.... rewrites are so funnnnn.......


----------



## Envy123

The AI has inevitably stopped being useful with writing prompts, as it eventually forgets plot points with a long manuscript. Looks like I need to hit the books for this writer's block.


----------



## indianroads

Envy123 said:


> The AI has inevitably stopped being useful with writing prompts, as it eventually forgets plot points with a long manuscript. Looks like I need to hit the books for this writer's block.


They should upgrade to the 386 processor...


----------



## Envy123

indianroads said:


> They should upgrade to the 386 processor...


In all seriousness, I think that the next generation of this AI should have a longer memory. It would be so useful.


----------



## Parabola

I wonder how many writers are actually blind to irony in their own lives.


----------



## Envy123

I don't think Jelly Dogs can be MG anymore, due to the kissing that my MC does.


----------



## Explosia

Ch 19 is coming along a bit clumsily, since I don't quite have its sequence all properly mapped out. Problems are occurring like how to get all the characters into one room, especially since the POV character is spying on everyone from around the corner of a wall. Still, I pushed the scene to a high-tension moment, and there, it's now frozen, as I have no idea how to resolve this situation. 

And of course, I still have to try to keep this whole fiasco under 5k words lolllllllll....... 

Time to sleep on it.


----------



## banjist

I don't even know what I'm doing. I got into writing a few months ago after playing with this AI text generation text adventure game. After a while the stories the AI came up with were less interesting to me than the ones my brain was coming up with. So I started writing stories. They have been universally awful, but then I have no background or training in creative writing, I just like to read a lot. So I got the Gotham Writer's Workshop book on writing fiction.

I'm a decently competent guitarist, so I know what it's like to learn a skill from completely sucking to being good. I know I can do this with writing, I'm reasonably clever and process oriented. Right now I'm working on my descriptive skills. I set aside an hour and a half or two hours early in the morning (I have two young kids and a full time job so time is precious) and I give myself a little idea of a character or scene and practice writing it up. I'm focusing on using fewer adjectives and adverbs when describing things, and I'm working on using all the senses to flesh out a scene.

I posted baby's first shitty short story here right when I made my account and got several pats on the head, and I realized I needed to go hit the keyboard hard for a while before trying to share some sort of masterpiece.

Anyone have any good suggestions for writing exercises to help me hone different aspects of my writing?


----------



## JBF

banjist said:


> Anyone have any good suggestions for writing exercises to help me hone different aspects of my writing?



Practice is the big one…but you sound like you’re ahead of the curve on that. 

One suggestion of moderate value would be to take a chunk out of a work you enjoy (or want to understand better) and put it under a microscope. Look at the art aspect, but try to break it down from an engineering standpoint - not only what’s being said, but _how.  _Why you like it.  What appeals you.  How it hits the right notes.

Start a thread, quote the piece in question, and ask for opinions.  If you find somebody here whose work grabs you, ask.  You may have a hard time getting us to shut up. 

I suspect you’ll discover that many who started writing as a pastime began by filing the serial numbers off another’s story, whether  fanfiction or established universe or borrowed style (or AI).  It works for a little while.  At least until you realize that the scaffold you thought was holding you up is truthfully holding you down.

….and then you start developing your own style and the REAL party begins.


----------



## Parabola

I don't want cigarettes to become the next "blue chambray shirt." Another example would be fingerless gloves, boring, casual things that are easily seen through. The "unspoken" equivalent that aides natural dialogue, or is supposed to in an ideal world. 

But these characters wearing chambray shirts, smoking and wearing fingerless gloves are not real people, even if they do all three at once. 

imo.


----------



## banjist

Parabola said:


> I don't want cigarettes to become the next "blue chambray shirt." Another example would be fingerless gloves, boring, casual things that are easily seen through. The "unspoken" equivalent that aides natural dialogue, or is supposed to in an ideal world.
> 
> But these characters wearing chambray shirts, smoking and wearing fingerless gloves are not real people, even if they do all three at once.
> 
> imo.


Why do you have to remind me of the days in high school when I wore fingerless gloves and smoked clove cigarettes? To be fair, I wasn't much of a real person back then.


----------



## Parabola

banjist said:


> Why do you have to remind me of the days in high school when I wore fingerless gloves and smoked clove cigarettes? To be fair, I wasn't much of a real person back then.



Well, to be fair, I just say stuff. I don't know if I even mean most of it.


----------



## banjist

JBF said:


> One suggestion of moderate value would be to take a chunk out of a work you enjoy (or want to understand better) and put it under a microscope. Look at the art aspect, but try to break it down from an engineering standpoint - not only what’s being said, but _how.  _Why you like it.  What appeals you.  How it hits the right notes.


This is great. I wish I had discovered writing a decade ago when I could have been a tragic alcoholic writer pumping out existential despair or something. Now I'm a boring middle-aged family man without nearly enough time to pursue passion projects.

I read the prologue to The Fellowship of the Ring the other day on a boring day at work, and I was blown away by how completely boring it should have been, just a stuffy professor musing about these weird little hairy foot dudes, but somehow those twenty dense pages of text were completely riveting to me. I want to dig down into it. Also, I like to employ humor in my writing, so I want to get a new copy of Good Omens by Pratchett and Gaiman and really pick through it.

Thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## nomdesab

It's the little things...

"In fiction, every scene has the following three elements:


Goal
Conflict
Disaster
These elements should _always_ occur in this order. A scene may involve any character, but for the purposes of our discussion, I'll assume the viewpoint character is your protagonist.

If you just start writing without understanding what your protagonist hopes to accomplish in the next few paragraphs, you won't know where you're going. Neither will your protagonist. And neither will your readers.

So your protagonist begins each scene with a _goal_. It may be something as simple as answering the telephone or as complex as breaking into a maximum-security facility. Whatever it is, this is the goal for the entire scene."


----------



## Envy123

I’m thinking 35k words will be the most I could do for my MG novel. I hope I won’t be ruining my chances of traditional publication, but I don’t want to add filler either.


----------



## nomdesab

Envy123 said:


> I’m thinking 35k words will be the most I could do for my MG novel. I hope I won’t be ruining my chances of traditional publication, but I don’t want to add filler either.



If you market your book as a novella you shouldn't have any issues with traditional publication as far as book length.


----------



## Envy123

nomdesab said:


> If you market your book as a novella you shouldn't have any issues with traditional publication as far as book length.


It is supposed to be for kids, and it seems like there's flexibility in word count on the lower end?


----------



## Parabola

The "dark night of the soul" for my protag is more like mid afternoon.


----------



## nomdesab

Envy123 said:


> It is supposed to be for kids, and it seems like there's flexibility in word count on the lower end?


Actually for middle grade 35k is the high end. You're good either way.


----------



## Envy123

nomdesab said:


> Actually for middle grade 35k is the high end. You're good either way.


Yeah, doing more research, it seems like I'm fine. Thank you.


----------



## Explosia

nomdesab said:


> So your protagonist begins each scene with a _goal_.



I don't know if I'd be 100% behind that instruction... Maybe it's more so that each scene should have a goal, even if that goal isn't necessarily one that your character has. 

Like, for example, I might begin a scene with my authorial goal in mind: I want this character to have a revelation. 

And the scene could entail something as simple as a conversation that pulls that revelation out of the character. Even though the character could simply be sitting with another character by happenstance. 

On the same token, though, ensuring that the character has a goal each scene could keep things more active. So I think that's useful advice to follow but doesn't have to be a strict hard-fast rule 100% of the time.


----------



## Parabola

Next up: Making Clowns Creepy Again, if only for a brief partial dream scene. Working on this one for Leo.


----------



## Explosia

I added one more very short scene to Ch 19. This one, showing the extent of a character's guilt. This is a scene that could stay or go, but I'd like to see if I can keep it.


----------



## PrairieHostage

Envy123 said:


> It is supposed to be for kids, and it seems like there's flexibility in word count on the lower end?


Oh ya, you're fine. MG is 20K to 50K so you're in there. Especially if this is a debut novel. Agents and publicists favor shorter lengths for debut authors.


----------



## PrairieHostage

I'm afraid not much has been on my mind about writing these days. I'm pulling out rug, removing staples, painting and installing new flooring. 

I do want to nudge an agent in New York, Jodi Reamer. Her assistant is my contact. Maybe this weekend. I'd like to move to a couple other agents at her firm, but she's my first choice. I'm in a very weird space with writing.


----------



## Envy123

PrairieHostage said:


> Oh ya, you're fine. MG is 20K to 50K so you're in there. Especially if this is a debut novel. Agents and publicists favor shorter lengths for debut authors.


Thank you so much. It’s great that it even has higher chances.


----------



## Parabola

Maybe think of plot as the body, and the context (setting the scene) its blood.


----------



## Envy123

I think aside from some minor tweaks, Laughing Matters 1 is going to stay mostly as is. Any attempts to overhaul it introduced more problems, sadly.

So, with my new knowledge, I should be able to write future stories without a lot of the issues that readers faced. Heck, Jelly Dogs doesn't have as many already, according to feedback.

Maybe it's mostly time for me to indeed move on to other works. And give the Laughing Matters universe another, more experienced shot at a whole new story.


----------



## Explosia

Okay, well, I think I might pause on my big WIP, because I may work on another short(ish) story for a bit and submit it to a place or two... But I have only until the end of November, and I actually need to add at least 5k words to it lmao, so I need to get cracking on that...!


----------



## Parabola

Explosia said:


> Okay, well, I think I might pause on my big WIP, because I may work on another short(ish) story for a bit and submit it to a place or two... But I have only until the end of November, and I actually need to add at least 5k words to it lmao, so I need to get cracking on that...!



So easy to get distracted by short stories. They're like crack for your soul.


----------



## Parabola

A sibling rivalry that spans multiple worlds and timelines is the most natural, beautiful thing in the world, and if you can't understand that then this conversation's over.


----------



## Envy123

Laughing Matters 2 ended up being very different to the original, for better and for worse. It's more prose heavy, the dialogue sequences are shorter and the plot is more streamlined. I'm going to get early feedback, to see if this would be a good thing.


----------



## Parabola

Searching for more modern horror stuff that offers a decent amount of inspiration is difficult, primarily because the atmosphere isn't given the proper amount of attention. Usually the plot/characters are also on the thin side.


----------



## M J Tennant 2022

I am constantly trying to improve what I have written and so that is on my mind most of the time.  As a hobby writer, I also love writing and so easily get wrapped up in the characters and their feelings.  I'm a bit head in the clouds really.

*##Link removed by moderator##*


----------



## Theglasshouse

Found some suitable titles to replace the old ones for both of my stories by listening to music on Spotify.


----------



## Parabola

I hope I don't let the cat out of the bag, but Leo is the story of a teenager with the "soul" of a puppy who is confronted with the looming death of his dog.


----------



## JBF

Parabola said:


> Searching for more modern horror stuff that offers a decent amount of inspiration is difficult, primarily because the atmosphere isn't given the proper amount of attention. Usually the plot/characters are also on the thin side.



I’m not sure if it holds true for fiction, but I’m convinced that gore has pretty much ruined horror as a film genre.


----------



## Parabola

JBF said:


> I’m not sure if it hold for fiction, but I’m convinced that gore has pretty much ruined horror as a film genre.



Gore isn't preferred, but I can overlook it if it's something I like. Modern horror stuff just doesn't have that "feel" which grabs me. I've heard Hereditary is pretty good and might give that a shot at some point. 

As for fiction, I read a crap ton of MG(?) horror as a kid and have retained that.


----------



## Envy123

I've broken off book 1's romance arc in book 2. Too many complications with book 2 being the first one, and Misty seems out of place in the new story.


----------



## nomdesab

I hope everyone is having a great Tuesday.  And to the Canadians out there - I hope you are recovering well from your post turkey comas! 



A goody from my writing class:

"The most important thing to remember is that conflict is essential. Yet it's hard to write. Why? Because most of us spend our lives trying to avoid it. We let the other guy have the parking space we saw first. We're polite to the telemarketer who calls during dinner. We let our spouse hold the remote control.

But as a writer, you must immerse yourself in conflict. Make your characters hop out of their cars and shout at drivers who are jerks. Let them slam the phone down when telemarketers are rude. Even encourage them to unplug the TV when their spouse insists on watching wrestling.

I'm not saying that _all_ your characters need to be hotheaded. But they do need to be passionate. So don't avoid conflict, even if it creates painful emotions for you, the author. That's precisely the response you are trying to elicit from your readers. If you feel emotionally wrung out at the end of a day of writing, you're probably doing it right."


----------



## Arsenex

nomdesab said:


> We let the other guy have the parking space we saw first. We're polite to the telemarketer who calls during dinner. We let our spouse hold the remote control.


So, if I'm in a lot and see a space open on the next lane over, I stop, hop out, and I have a sign on a stand that I deploy that says, "Space Reserved." That leaves it open until I can pull my car around.

For telemarketers, I immediately ask what they are wearing and then state, "I'm not wearing nothing," which is true. Most hang up on their own.

My wife insists that I hold the remote. That way, if the show sucks, she gets to complain about _my _choice.


----------



## Envy123

nomdesab said:


> I hope everyone is having a great Tuesday.  And to the Canadians out there - I hope you are recovering well from your post turkey comas!
> 
> 
> 
> A goody from my writing class:
> 
> "The most important thing to remember is that conflict is essential. Yet it's hard to write. Why? Because most of us spend our lives trying to avoid it. We let the other guy have the parking space we saw first. We're polite to the telemarketer who calls during dinner. We let our spouse hold the remote control.


Agreed. Readers like it if I emulate the sort of scenes from Brazilian soap operas. Everyone is against everyone else, even villains on the same side have conflicts.

I’m going to put my acting hat tomorrow and dramatise existing scenes and new ones. Get that into text and work from there.


----------



## Taylor

nomdesab said:


> I hope everyone is having a great Tuesday.  And to the Canadians out there - I hope you are recovering well from your post turkey comas!


Thanks for thinking of us!  Our annual extended family dinner (my sister's turn this year) got postponed to the American Thanksgiving as some family members were diagnosed with Covid.  So, my husband and I ordered a takeout turkey dinner, but they called us yesterday to say they ran out ... lol!  Then, they called me again this morning and said, if I were still interested, they would deliver it today.  Turkey dinner still pending ... looking forward to it!


----------



## Parabola

Working on a paragraph for Leo that isn't actually a part of the story yet. Gone through three or four versions of it already. The sentiment occurred to me while I was doing something else, and I wanted to record it before it went away, mobster style.


----------



## Joker

Jessica's bitchy ice queen act has finally fallen flat, and she doesn't know what to do.


----------



## Envy123

Mrs Holloway is so two-faced and creepy. Makes my book 1 protagonist look like a limp flower in comparison. I cannot wait to have her brought to justice in the end.


----------



## Parabola

Billy is exploring his childhood, and because there's a fluidity inherent in that, he's seeing Leo's loyalty more clearly and applying it to the rest of his life: mostly with his relationship with Evelyn, but also his best friend Kevin.


----------



## C.K.Johnson

I’m so stuck on this story I’m missing a B plot line and nothing feels right.
It doesn’t help to get a rejection on a query hours after querying.
On a bright note, New Belgium has produced a beautiful tropical IPA called Voodoo Ranger Danger Beach. Lush, tangy pineapple and an impressive 7.1 % ABV. Cheers!


----------



## Explosia

Funny thing! I actually have a person giving me feedback on my earlier WIP chapters. That's great! But now I'm about to give them Ch 5, and I'm not looking forward to receiving the notes on that one. I am verrrrry worried that the chapter is pretty bad, actually.   I honestly have been wondering for a really long time if I'm going to have to rework that dang thing entirely... It may even in fact be "cringe".

In other news, my horror novella is....... Well, it sure is going. It kinda feels like a big mess, right now, though... And I still need to add like 500 more words to it.  I think once I've cleaned it up, I might drop the first 1k words in the Workshop forum. And then I will duck and hide lollll


----------



## Parabola

If I don't strike while the iron is hot, my brain melts.


----------



## Parabola

Leo is finding its own rhythm. I just have to remember to keep Billy's "kindness/loyalty" aesthetic in mind, inner struggles and conflict etc. Strokes of nostalgia here and there.


----------



## Parabola

500 words in MC3, with Ethan's voice. I'll probably go between him and Eugene, exploring both perspectives. Might do more tonight. Also it's possible I'll try to associate Leo with morning writing, and MC3 with evening writing.

Good to be back in the MC universe.


----------



## Envy123

The villain Mrs Holloway had to die early. I just don’t see how my MC could be tortured by her and not be willing to end her, considering that he killed before in this dystopian world.


----------



## Parabola

Even though I just started writing on MC3 again, I had some sort of side-quel in mind, but some random concept struck me concerning that. Eugene is developing the tributary, the setting for MC2, while Ethan is stuck in switch mode. No idea when I'll actually start writing this, if ever, but it's there.


----------



## Parabola

Ethan seems at his "best" when he's straddling the line between asshole and naive regret. A one trick pony does not a unicorn make.


----------



## Explosia

Cleanup is continuing for the horror novella, and I've started dropping in chapter headings to divide up the different segments in it. Thank god, because reading the whole thing without "chapters" to break it up is easily exhausting.

I'm just a couple hundred words short of the bare minimum word count that I need. But I still have plenty to comb through with opportunities to add more. 

It's not suuuuper scary in the first half, but it's flavored with what I'd call "weird mystery".  The end of the first half, however, is pretty tense. Then the whole second half of it is "lol what if you lived in this nightmare?"


----------



## Parabola

Just finished another 500 in Leo. I enjoyed writing the bit where Joe's backyard goes dark save one lantern on a picnic table. Billy heads into the country beyond the cul-de-sac, so that he can make his way into town to find the memento. Decided to focus on describing the surroundings etc, but was conscious of forward motion for the plot.


----------



## indianroads

Completed the third edit of Moonscape yesterday - working on the blurb... AGAIN.


----------



## Envy123

Readers only seem excited for the supernatural things in my stories and don’t want any of the political intrigue. 

But I don't want to just have supernatural things in there. And it was the opinion of more than one person.


----------



## indianroads

After I tweaked the blurb, I went through my chapter files to make sure that the way numbers are represented is consistent.


----------



## indianroads

Envy123 said:


> Readers only seem excited for the supernatural things in my stories and don’t want any of the political intrigue.
> 
> But I don't want to just have supernatural things in there. And it was the opinion of more than one person.


I'd rather not write to an audience - I'm more of a hobby writer though, but I write what I would like to read but have a lot of trouble finding. 
In a sense, writing for popularity is like the pick-me dance young people do when finding a relationship - but if you pretend to be one thing to attract someone, you'll be unhappy in the relationship.
So, my admittedly BAD advice, is that you should write the story you want to write. If it finds an audience, GREAT! But otherwise, you kept your integrity and created something unique.


----------



## PiP

Accents and dialogue. At what point do they become over-egged? 
@indianroads


> I write what I would like to read but have a lot of trouble finding.


Yep. IT's like fashion. Try and buy straight-legged trousers when fashion dictates baggy jeans are all the rage. Every pair of trousers in the shop are more or less cut in the same baggy style. That's fine if they suit you ... but if you're already the size of a hippo why  add inches to your ass? And all romance books have to follow the same template ... why?
@Envy123 



> Readers only seem excited for the supernatural things in my stories and don’t want any of the political intrigue But I don't want to just have supernatural things in there. And it was the opinion of more than one person.


Tough one. Sometimes it tough to kill your darlings. Is the political intrigue part of the plot or an aside ... would the story flow without it? This is a point I'm currently discussing with a couple of book reviewers. If it's not something that the reader needs to know and is superfluous to the story she told me not to include it because if it's just waffle the reader will skip over to stay with the meat of the story..


----------



## indianroads

PiP said:


> Accents and dialogue. At what point do they become over-egged?


When they stop sounding natural, or become a burden to read.


----------



## Parabola

I've been delving deeper into descriptive stuff with Leo. The country night scenario mixed with autumn is hugely inspiring for me.


----------



## Envy123

indianroads said:


> I'd rather not write to an audience - I'm more of a hobby writer though, but I write what I would like to read but have a lot of trouble finding.
> In a sense, writing for popularity is like the pick-me dance young people do when finding a relationship - but if you pretend to be one thing to attract someone, you'll be unhappy in the relationship.
> So, my admittedly BAD advice, is that you should write the story you want to write. If it finds an audience, GREAT! But otherwise, you kept your integrity and created something unique.



I do have Jelly Dogs that only have the supernatural and no politics. Maybe that would be my most popular one.



PiP said:


> Accents and dialogue. At what point do they become over-egged?
> @indianroads
> 
> Yep. IT's like fashion. Try and buy straight-legged trousers when fashion dictates baggy jeans are all the rage. Every pair of trousers in the shop are more or less cut in the same baggy style. That's fine if they suit you ... but if you're already the size of a hippo why  add inches to your ass? And all romance books have to follow the same template ... why?
> @Envy123
> 
> 
> Tough one. Sometimes it tough to kill your darlings. Is the political intrigue part of the plot or an aside ... would the story flow without it? This is a point I'm currently discussing with a couple of book reviewers. If it's not something that the reader needs to know and is superfluous to the story she told me not to include it because if it's just waffle the reader will skip over to stay with the meat of the story..


It is needed, because the Skull God coming back has more nuances than just “find the bones and win”. 

I don’t see how the story would have a word count of 80k words and just have an A plot. I can try to make it clearer to the reader that politics are important to the world. But that may not be enough.

If stories with just an A plot are what those readers want, Jelly Dogs would be more up their alley.


----------



## Explosia

Envy123 said:


> Readers only seem excited for the supernatural things in my stories and don’t want any of the political intrigue.
> 
> But I don't want to just have supernatural things in there. And it was the opinion of more than one person.


I am the same in that I often lose interest in military or political plots. But I can stick with it of it's engaging. Like everything else, it's about the execution. So how can you fill the political aspects of the plot with more intrigue? Is there absurd corruption? A power struggle? A "lesser of two evils" situation?

Have your beta readers mentioned what it is about the politics that loses their interest? Don't be afraid to ask them...!


----------



## Envy123

Explosia said:


> I am the same in that I often lose interest in military or political plots. But I can stick with it of it's engaging. Like everything else, it's about the execution. So how can you fill the political aspects of the plot with more intrigue? Is there absurd corruption? A power struggle? A "lesser of two evils" situation?
> 
> Have your beta readers mentioned what it is about the politics that loses their interest? Don't be afraid to ask them...!


I spoke with one of them and asked further questions. It was just that the title of the story was about the Skull God and I didn't make the plan of action clearer from the outset that politics are a part of it. Otherwise, it seemed like filler and out of place in the story.

I ended up expanding the meeting scenes and the MC and his sidekick put forth a plan of what they want to achieve and why. They said it would help. And I changed the title to shift focus towards the actual House being an enemy and not the Skull God itself.


----------



## Parabola

For some reason, I keep going back to Jason for bits of imagery/concepts. This is from MC3.



> Now Jason and Sarah were together. Fate had righted itself. I’d become the sacrificial lamb wearing the golden fleece, and it was rigged with dynamite and a timer.


----------



## indianroads

Starting in on the fourth edit of Moonscape this afternoon. 
Found one issue last night - I need to smooth out when the MC learns that his trip to Lunar prison is one way due to the effect of low gravity on his body.


----------



## Parabola

I don't think slower moving stories are necessarily a bad thing, except sometimes that thing is more justifiable if you have a faster paced plot initially.


----------



## mistamastamusta

I wonder if my writing is ever enough. I get that I don't have to write 5,000 words a day and that even 10 words more than I did the previous day is an accomplishment, but is it enough? I also wonder if my writing has become a chore rather than something that I enjoy doing.


----------



## indianroads

mistamastamusta said:


> I wonder if my writing is ever enough. I get that I don't have to write 5,000 words a day and that even 10 words more than I did the previous day is an accomplishment, but is it enough? I also wonder if my writing has become a chore rather than something that I enjoy doing.


Define 'enough'.
Are you looking at a WC goal, or are you considering how your writing is improving?


----------



## Parabola

I wanted to capture the late 90s, very early 2000s feel. Wondering if this alternate version of MC reality will hit that bullseye better.


----------



## mistamastamusta

indianroads said:


> Define 'enough'.
> Are you looking at a WC goal, or are you considering how your writing is improving?


Improving I suppose


----------



## indianroads

mistamastamusta said:


> Improving I suppose


Just keep working at it. I learn and get inspiration by reading books of successful authors. If you turn our editing self on when you read you can pick up a lot.


----------



## Foxee

_Please don't be another idea that dies and ends up in the boneyard of forgotten attempts...please don't be another idea that...(endless loop)_


----------



## Parabola

Foxee said:


> _Please don't be another idea that dies and ends up in the boneyard of forgotten attempts...please don't be another idea that...(endless loop)_



Hey. I live in the boneyard of forgotten attempts. I can't complain. Free rent.


----------



## indianroads

Foxee said:


> _Please don't be another idea that dies and ends up in the boneyard of forgotten attempts...please don't be another idea that...(endless loop)_


Every failed attempt can be seen as another step forward.


----------



## Parabola

I switched from the sidequel (for some reason, I enjoy using that word, it amuses me), to MC3, at one point writing about the same location but from the perspective of a different character. It's an odd feeling when you do that in a short time frame.


----------



## Parabola

Wrote 500 in Chapter 4 of MC3. I'm still naming chapters (even though I might remove them later), and this one's called "Kevin's Deadly Winter." I decided to skip ahead in the plot, showing Ethan and Eugene being forced into Kevin's killing squad, although they're low on the totem pole at present, on "cleanup" duty. Planning on Ethan explaining what happened on the slow truck ride to the next house.


----------



## JBF

indianroads said:


> Every failed attempt can be seen as another step forward.



Unless there’s a landmine.  

Then it’s a step up and kinda sideways.


----------



## Parabola

I'm more excited writing this winter/flashback section than I was penning the majority of MC2.


----------



## S J Ward

Doing the NaNoWriMo! Of course it's on my mind along with two other irons in the fire.
Have I gone 'wibble' with a pencil up each nostril?


----------



## Explosia

I just recently realized that after doing a thorough edit pass of one of my horror novella scenes, I remembered that the two characters are supposed to be _carrying things in their hands the whole time_...........

AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH.......!!!!


----------



## Parabola

Explosia said:


> I just recently realized that after doing a thorough edit pass of one of my horror novella scenes, I remembered that the two characters are supposed to be _carrying things in their hands the whole time_...........
> 
> AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH.......!!!!



The eye color of my characters is always changing (except for maybe one). All those little details, uggh.


----------



## Parabola

Mia's black heart should've come with surgeon general's warning. If you fall into that abyss, you'll never find your way out.


----------



## mistamastamusta

Explosia said:


> I just recently realized that after doing a thorough edit pass of one of my horror novella scenes, I remembered that the two characters are supposed to be _carrying things in their hands the whole time_...........
> 
> AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH.......!!!!


I switch perspectives in my work so much that I forget which character is in first and which is in third, ending up with a chapter being half one perspective and half the other.


----------



## Joker

I destroyed Canada.


----------



## Envy123

I leveraged more of Book 1 to make Book 2's beginning stronger. I am not so sure on Book 1 being traditionally published considering its heavy flaws, so might as well, and beta readers were on board too with the idea.

So, my MC is pretty much "I'm an assassin" in the first paragraph, instead of the whole Olympic diving shtick.


----------



## Parabola

Both versions of the dictatorship have very different flavors. I'm interested in exploring them both.


----------



## Explosia

mistamastamusta said:


> I switch perspectives in my work so much that I forget which character is in first and which is in third, ending up with a chapter being half one perspective and half the other.


Oh nooooooooooo!!


----------



## Parabola

I thought Mia wasn't going to have much of a role in MC3, or maybe I'd forgotten about what I originally planned, either way she's going to play a prominent part in the plot later on, wielding the power she's been coveting for most of her life. I'm looking forward to exploring the psychological aspects of that a little bit, especially once Ethan gets to her rambling fortress. He'll see hints of that along the way, but I'll save the majority of those revelations for that section. Definitely enjoying this more than writing MC2 (with some exceptions), which I'll have to go back and retool at some point.


----------



## Envy123

I already came up with titles of future Laughing Matters books 

3. BCG - Big Cat’s Getaway
4. Red Jelly Vixen
5. Pancake Screeching Ravens
6. The Time Lord

Daydreaming at its finest.


----------



## Parabola

Using some flashbacks so that Kevin's harsh winter doesn't become overwhelmingly bleak.


----------



## S J Ward

A caver who gets washed away in a flash flood whilst wading through a river, deep underground (2022).
Eighteen coal miners who are trapped and abandoned in 1822.
The caver re-appears barely alive, blinded; her eyes have been removed. Three months after being assumed lost.
An elderly woman who sees lights at the mouth of A copper mine, high up on a hill. She investgates and is never seen again. Or so we think.
Link them all together and... hey presto. Nanowrimo is complete.


----------



## PiP

I have several plot ideas and I'm not sure which one to choose for National Novel Writing Month. Do I stick with the story I wrote back in 2012 and develop it into a series .... or start a completely new book?

Is anyone else attempting NaNo?
check-in here 








						NaNoWriMo 2022
					


November is nearly upon us. Are you planning to participate in NaNoWriMo (National Novel Writing Month)? Check in here …  work with others on WF to stay motivated.  Have you already plotted your story or are you going to write by the seat of your pants?





					www.writingforums.com


----------



## Joker

PiP said:


> I have several plot ideas and I'm not sure which one to choose for National Novel Writing Month. Do I stick with the story I wrote back in 2012 and develop it into a series .... or start a completely new book?
> 
> Is anyone else attempting NaNo?
> check-in here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NaNoWriMo 2022
> 
> 
> 
> November is nearly upon us. Are you planning to participate in NaNoWriMo (National Novel Writing Month)? Check in here …  work with others on WF to stay motivated.  Have you already plotted your story or are you going to write by the seat of your pants?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.writingforums.com



Oh hell no. I'll be happy with 8k words or so this month.

Anyways, gives us details.


----------



## Parabola

Joker said:


> Oh hell no. I'll be happy with 8k words or so this month.
> 
> Anyways, gives us details.



I did 10K words in a day once. Having re-read that, some sentences ended for no reason.


----------



## Joker

Parabola said:


> I did 10K words in a day once. Having re-read that, some sentences ended for no reason.


----------



## Parabola

I just finished writing a long section about the start of Kevin's dictatorship. The best way I knew how to paint that vibe was to channel an I experience I had that was jarring and seemingly life-threatening, not the event itself, but more the awkward confusion and incredibly tense atmosphere. Well, I guess I'm not "finished" maybe a few more paragraphs, but after that I can go back to the winter present, where what's happening is more streamlined, at least for the most part.


----------



## Explosia

Did my pass of the first half of the horror novella. Tomorrow, I'm hittin' up the B&N cafe to start on the second half of it... I want to have this thing's editing pass done by the end of Oct. so I can spend Nov. tweaking and cleaning it up more...  The fun thing for tonight is that I got to equate the main antagonist to a gigantic Tom cat.


----------



## C.K.Johnson

PiP said:


> I have several plot ideas and I'm not sure which one to choose for National Novel Writing Month. Do I stick with the story I wrote back in 2012 and develop it into a series .... or start a completely new book?
> 
> Is anyone else attempting NaNo?
> check-in here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NaNoWriMo 2022
> 
> 
> 
> November is nearly upon us. Are you planning to participate in NaNoWriMo (National Novel Writing Month)? Check in here …  work with others on WF to stay motivated.  Have you already plotted your story or are you going to write by the seat of your pants?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.writingforums.com


I’m looking at some story idea notes for a potential NaNo project. I’ve written more than 50k words in a month before so that’s not the issue, it’s finding my happy place where I look forward to writing. My WIP is practically begging to be put on the back burner so I can find that joy in writing again.


----------



## Foxee

_Oh my gosh, I have actually finished a few Friday Flash pieces and a piece that went into the Halloween Collection. What if I actually turn into some kind of writer who finishes their work and publishes it at this rate? Scary thought!_


----------



## Parabola

I had a "not good" day yesterday and am trying to snap back to concentrate on MC3. Maybe it'll be another lost day so to speak. Probably if I get any writing done, it will be in the late afternoon/evening.


----------



## indianroads

What's on my mind?
Yesterday was interesting - 
There's a family that trains in the martial arts classes I attend on Wednesday and Friday - father + 2 high-school age daughters. On Wednesday it was mentioned in class that I've written several books that are on Amazon, and one of the daughters got excited because she wants to write. So, of course I recommended joining this site, and the local writers guild. She asked about Amazon - she didn't think self published on Amazon authors could sell paper or hardback books there - I corrected her, and said I'd bring in some samples. So, yesterday (Friday) I brought in samples that included Inception (hardback) and Departure (paperback), and she was surprised at the quality of the books. The younger sister started reading Inception before class and got hooked, so she asked if she could keep it to read - which of course was fine. So the news is that we may get a couple of new members, but the best part is that another young person is starting to write. 

Ancillary news - I started helping their father on his fighting technique. He's a skilled and intelligent guy, and I think he'll do well in the martial arts - unfortunately though real martial arts isn't taught anymore, so hopefully I can fill that gap with him.

On to my WIP Moonscape - I'm over halfway through the fourth editing pass, and it seems to be going almost too well. I took a slightly different approach with the writing in that my usual thorough and detailed plot was reduced to just a few pages, and the MS was pantsed quite a lot. Usually, my drafts are much longer than my WC goal and I do a reductive process to bring it to heel, but Moonscape came up short so I switched to an additive process, which seems to be working out well.


----------



## Parabola

MC2's plot was meant to be more slice of life like, still I had a self-imposed timeline, and I don't perform well under any kind of pressure or time constraint. I'll probably drop into the google doc and add to the plot skeleton here and there when the mood strikes me. There also are parts of the book I want to keep, but I'll be frankenstein-ing it.


----------



## S J Ward

I've got a working title for the nanowrimo thingy. I have a start, a middle and an end. I have sub plots and intrigue. I have twists. I have rheumatism from writing notes. I have a bit of research to do about early 19th century coal mining. But, a ghost story it will be (forget the horror idea!) Called... drum roll please... "One penny, one shilling, one farthing"  
8 days to research mining!


----------



## Parabola

I'm not sure when I'll finish MC3. If nothing else, I think I hit some meaningful notes with a few passages. Believe it or not, they weren't centered on Sarah, but with Ethan's sister. Or how I'd envisioned early springtime in that current reality. Sometimes the notes you want to play are different than what you initially planned, and I just go with the flow. The other one, a bit rougher around the edges, had to do with Ethan having to kill his dad. Even at his worst, Ethan could go to Joe's Innovative Gaming and get some sage advice.


----------



## Explosia

I think I've got all the big details added to the horror novella, save for like two more places where I want to add a little bit more. And I've fixed the POV to make it consistent throughout. So now, oh lord, I need to do a search-and-find for all my "crutch" words... A few favorites in particular are "silent (variation: quiet)," "gaze/glimpse/stare," "clutch," "gasp/breath," "light/lit," "black," "dark," "while," "then," "as," and then many others I keep forgetting about until I notice them while reading the whole thing through again...


----------



## Parabola

Well, nothing in my current novels mind you, but in general I'm a big fan of Socratic irony.


----------



## Parabola

"Dude, you're funny as hell."
"Oh, I'm just a modest laugh dispenser."


----------



## bazz cargo

Keep faking it 'til I make it.


----------



## Parabola

Guess it doesn't really matter, but I'm contemplating a roughly 20k maybe 30K story. Mildly curious if there is a market for that sort of thing. Seems to be a hard sell from what I know.


----------



## Parabola

Just working on something because of my rare but usually fairly accurate "spidey sense."


----------



## Envy123

I think Laughing Matters 2 will have to be reworked entirely in the second draft. This may include changing the order of scenes and even changing the focus in the plot.

So, I’ll write way more words than I need. In case, I’d need to cut the beginning.


----------



## M J Tennant 2022

I'm on a bit of a high about my work at the moment.  Doesn't happen often.  Just finishing off a section of the second book of a three series story before I send this to my editor.  Scary stuff!

M J x


----------



## Parabola

I'm waiting for the "tyranny of the blank page" to become a fresh literary concept.


----------



## mistamastamusta

I've written several poems over the last couple of weeks, thinking about putting them together into a little booklet. Not going to try to publish my poems, but rather have something my ELA teacher can enjoy because he seems to be taken to my poetry recently. He's said I've changed with themes in my poetry, a good thing.


----------



## Parabola

Eventually the lifelong reverie will crash in a burning meadow. One last BBQ before winter sets in.


----------



## Parabola

Researching the area where my story takes place, culturally etc. Usually, I prefer to just read but this time I wanted a visuo-cultural crossover. Want to have a vibrant sense of place. Having a hard time finding the video I want.


----------



## Mullanphy

What's on my mind vis a vis writing? That I am retired, have as much time as I need and/or want to write every day, but waste that time doing anything but.

I don't believe the trope, _If I am meant to be a writer (plumber, electrician, painter, etc.) it will happen_. On the other hand, the opposite trope, _If I want to be a writer bad/hard enough, I will become one._ is also not a truism.

Random thought: My father once asked me if I wanted to become a ditch-digger. When he grew up, that meant manual labor at minimum or sub-minimum wage using a pick and shovel. Same when I grew up. Today, ditch-diggers earn excellent wages using advanced technologies embedded in powerful machines built just to dig ditches, and in some cases there are no ditches to be dug, just water-bored holes through which cables are pushed and pulled. What that has to do with writing is beyond me.


----------



## Arsenex

Mullanphy said:


> What's on my mind vis a vis writing? That I am retired, have as much time as I need and/or want to write every day, but waste that time doing anything but.
> 
> I don't believe the trope, _If I am meant to be a writer (plumber, electrician, painter, etc.) it will happen_. On the other hand, the opposite trope, _If I want to be a writer bad/hard enough, I will become one._ is also not a truism.
> 
> Random thought: My father once asked me if I wanted to become a ditch-digger. When he grew up, that meant manual labor at minimum or sub-minimum wage using a pick and shovel. Same when I grew up. Today, ditch-diggers earn excellent wages using advanced technologies embedded in powerful machines built just to dig ditches, and in some cases there are no ditches to be dug, just water-bored holes through which cables are pushed and pulled. What that has to do with writing is beyond me.


You and I are in similar boats on the same ocean. Retired, but distractions abound. Any excuse to not produce. This morning's excuse is because I am still smarting from being cheated out of my $2.04B powerball winnings last night.


----------



## Moon Child

Parabola said:


> Researching the area where my story takes place, culturally etc. Usually, I prefer to just read but this time I wanted a visuo-cultural crossover. Want to have a vibrant sense of place. Having a hard time finding the video I want.



I recommend instantstreetview.com  one of my fanfiction stories was set in modern Athens, but I've never been. I used street view and 'walked' around Athens. It's beautiful but full of graffiti!


----------



## Parabola

Moon Child said:


> I recommend instantstreetview.com  one of my fanfiction stories was set in modern Athens, but I've never been. I used street view and 'walked' around Athens. It's beautiful but full of graffiti!



Will definitely give it a look. Actually, now that I think about it, I did have a horror story set in Athens and this would've come in handy back then.


----------



## Riptide

been in a writing slump lately. Kicked off nano knowing this piece wasn't rolling off the fingertips and now I'm chipping at it and unmotivated. A new idea sparked but I'm not in the mood to jump into that. It's a different genre than what I'm used to, a more contemporary RomCom, and I like the way it sounds, just don't want to dive into it.

I have to revise some WIPs but those aren't being looked at, at the moment. Not fun Rippy's writing mind, let me tell you


----------



## Parabola

Riptide said:


> been in a writing slump lately. Kicked off nano knowing this piece wasn't rolling off the fingertips and now I'm chipping at it and unmotivated. A new idea sparked but I'm not in the mood to jump into that. It's a different genre than what I'm used to, a more contemporary RomCom, and I like the way it sounds, just don't want to dive into it.
> 
> I have to revise some WIPs but those aren't being looked at, at the moment. Not fun Rippy's writing mind, let me tell you



Yeah, my current project is shorter and horror with some romance on the side, with the latter it's not a genre I'm _that_ familiar with. My focus is similarly muddled.


----------



## Parabola

Even writers that have reached an "expert" level can have amateurish insights, or maybe I should say obsolete? They get cocky, which might lead to sloppiness down the line, or they feel like they have nothing left to learn.


----------



## mistamastamusta

I've been writing scenes here and there as new ideas for a story. Currently creating character sheets to get to know my characters a little better.


----------



## Taylor

Wondering about my validity as a fiction writer.   I don't want to write about the hapless, poor downtrodden ... I don't want to write about the selfless, non-materialistic hero ... I don't want to write about the heartless, corporate villain.  I want to write about ordinary people who deal with ordinary life and make ordinary mistakes along the way. Perhaps there is no place for me in fiction.


----------



## Moon Child

Taylor said:


> Wondering about my validity as a fiction writer.   I don't want to write about the hapless, poor downtrodden ... I don't want to write about the selfless, non-materialistic hero ... I don't want to write about the heartless, corporate villain.  I want to write about ordinary people who deal with ordinary life and make ordinary mistakes along the way. Perhaps there is no place for me in fiction.



Oh darling, no no no! Never think that. People need to read the stories of the ordinary, of a person just like them and what that character deals with. Sometimes the reader takes the story with them and it inspires in some way.


----------



## Explosia

Received feedback for my horror novella and aaaaaaaaaah, okay, time for a round of edits, here we go, wish me luck everyone.  

Also, one of the publications I'm thinking about submitting to already has 700 submissions lmao, well I'm going to submit to it anyway if not for anything else but to practice doing it.


----------



## Explosia

Taylor said:


> Wondering about my validity as a fiction writer.   I don't want to write about the hapless, poor downtrodden ... I don't want to write about the selfless, non-materialistic hero ... I don't want to write about the heartless, corporate villain.  I want to write about ordinary people who deal with ordinary life and make ordinary mistakes along the way. Perhaps there is no place for me in fiction.


This is how you get classic stories like _To Kill a Mockingbird_ or _The Outsiders_.  There absolutely is a place for the ordinary slice-of-life type of story, and so often those are the ones that speak to people the most...!


----------



## Parabola

Taylor said:


> Wondering about my validity as a fiction writer.   I don't want to write about the hapless, poor downtrodden ... I don't want to write about the selfless, non-materialistic hero ... I don't want to write about the heartless, corporate villain.  I want to write about ordinary people who deal with ordinary life and make ordinary mistakes along the way. Perhaps there is no place for me in fiction.



Writing about ordinary people seems a lot more interesting than the other things you listed.


----------



## PiP

Taylor said:


> I want to write about ordinary people who deal with ordinary life and make ordinary mistakes along the way.


I prefer to read AND write slice of life fiction because RL iiiiiis stranger than fiction.


----------



## Non Serviam

And a well-observed slice of life absolutely does have heroes -- because real life does.  People whose superpower is finding a way to keep giving when they have nothing left.


----------



## Ladyserpentine

Taylor said:


> Wondering about my validity as a fiction writer.   I don't want to write about the hapless, poor downtrodden ... I don't want to write about the selfless, non-materialistic hero ... I don't want to write about the heartless, corporate villain.  I want to write about ordinary people who deal with ordinary life and make ordinary mistakes along the way. Perhaps there is no place for me in fiction.


There is absolutely a place for this type of fiction! Some of the very best literature focuses on the character growth and development of ordinary people in ordinary situations. It's relatable and has the ability to make readers contemplate their own lives. It's true that many readers crave the sparkly allure of heroes and villains in extraordinary situations, but there's already plenty of authors already catering to them. Might as well write what makes you happy.

Most importantly if you write stories that _you_ enjoy, then there will almost certainly be other people who enjoy them too.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

I have these wonderful ideas to show a quirky trait in MC1 which will help add depth to not only him, but help propel the story. I'm trying to sprinkle it throughout the book. I've got a great idea to add it in the last chapter, but as I re-read the last chapter, adding it into this one will pretty much cause me to nearly re-write the whole damn thing again.


----------



## Taylor

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> I have these wonderful ideas to show a quirky trait in MC1 which will help add depth to not only him, but help propel the story. I'm trying to sprinkle it throughout the book. I've got a great idea to add it in the last chapter, but as I re-read the last chapter, adding it into this one will pretty much cause me to nearly re-write the whole damn thing again.


Go for it!  You sound excited about his idea.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

Taylor said:


> Wondering about my validity as a fiction writer.   I don't want to write about the hapless, poor downtrodden ... I don't want to write about the selfless, non-materialistic hero ... I don't want to write about the heartless, corporate villain.  I want to write about ordinary people who deal with ordinary life and make ordinary mistakes along the way. Perhaps there is no place for me in fiction.



I'm going to be blunt: Bullshit.

Not only is there a place for you in fiction, there is an audience for you in fiction. Hi, my name Aaron, and ordinary people who work in ordinary jobs who make ordinary (and sometimes extraordinary) mistakes is what I'm writing about. And I'm loving the unholy phuck out of it. I know there are people who've read blips of what I've written (as shitty as my grammar and style is) that love what I'm writing. Yeah, most of them are friends and coworkers, but they're ones that are readers. And they'll be my base/core audience, and they'll be the ones that (hopefully) recommend my book to others. 

This might come across as being disrespectful to this community (but it's not meant to) when I say that sometimes I feel alienated here because it seems like I'm the only person here NOT writing about sci-fi or fantasy or fan-dom, but at the same time I take pride in the fact I'm going down a different path. (And yeah, I know there's probably more, so don't freak out, dear peeps. We all good in da hood). 

So no, there's a place for you. Write the damn book.  Write the living crap outta it. Hell, write it with a chip on your shoulder. 


A.C.


----------



## Parabola

Billy encounters a ghostly couple embracing in the cemetery. Looking back on the scene, it could represent more than one scenario. It's either him and Evelyn, him and the assistant he hugs in the vet's office, or her and some other dude. I kept that ambiguous for the time being. Might help with formulating the ending.


----------



## Taylor

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> I'm going to be blunt: Bullshit.





That Guy Named Aaron said:


> Not only is there a place for you in fiction, there is an audience for you in fiction. Hi, my name Aaron, and ordinary people who work in ordinary jobs who make ordinary (and sometimes extraordinary) mistakes is what I'm writing about. And I'm loving the unholy phuck out of it. I know there are people who've read blips of what I've written (as shitty as my grammar and style is) that love what I'm writing. Yeah, most of them are friends and coworkers, but they're ones that are readers. And they'll be my base/core audience, and they'll be the ones that (hopefully) recommend my book to others.


Where can we read your work?  



That Guy Named Aaron said:


> This might come across as being disrespectful to this community (but it's not meant to) when I say that sometimes I feel alienated here because it seems like I'm the only person here NOT writing about sci-fi or fantasy or fan-dom, but at the same time I take pride in the fact I'm going down a different path. (And yeah, I know there's probably more, so don't freak out, dear peeps. We all good in da hood).
> 
> So no, there's a place for you. Write the damn book.  Write the living crap outta it. Hell, write it with a chip on your shoulder.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

Taylor said:


> Where can we read your work?



DISCLAIMER:  God Bless Small Town, USA is not ready for public consumption. I gave it to some betas as a litmus test to see if my idea was worth a damn, and to see how I’m doing/progressing as a writer.
Knuckle dragging shop rat am I, remember? I came here to learn to walk up write and make fire.
I’m waiting to hear back from all the betas, but already getting solid feedback and it has me thinking and retooling. I’m progressing, but not nearly where I want to be.

That being said, @Taylor, if you’re honestly interested in reading some of it, I’ll throw a doc together (flaws and blemishes and all) and message you a Dropbox link for you to for either enjoyment, inspiration, or make you laugh hysterically and wonder why I think I belong here. 


A.C.


----------



## JBF

Taylor said:


> Wondering about my validity as a fiction writer.   I don't want to write about the hapless, poor downtrodden ... I don't want to write about the selfless, non-materialistic hero ... I don't want to write about the heartless, corporate villain.  I want to write about ordinary people who deal with ordinary life and make ordinary mistakes along the way. Perhaps there is no place for me in fiction.



I'll save you a seat on the FailBus.    

But seriously....



That Guy Named Aaron said:


> I'm going to be blunt: Bullshit.



Kinda have to roll with Silent Electric Orange Death Guy here.  



That Guy Named Aaron said:


> Not only is there a place for you in fiction, there is an audience for you in fiction. Hi, my name Aaron, and ordinary people who work in ordinary jobs who make ordinary (and sometimes extraordinary) mistakes is what I'm writing about.



The breadth of a well-told story is not measured by its physical setting.  Trust me on this.  I wasted a lot of years laboring under the delusion that stories about common people were half a cut above soap operas.  Who wants to read about the couple working minimum-wage jobs in the hinterlands of nowhere?  Who cares about a protag up to his elbows in mechanical problems with permanent grease stains on his hands?  Single mother raising two kids in a trailer?  The kid who's caught in a world filled with opportunities he doesn't know how to chase?  The thirty-year high school nurse - or the janitor, for that matter?

....turns out, a lot of people.  As much as been made of 'representation' in media, very little is generally afforded to the man/woman on the street unless they're slated to a) make it big beyond their wildest dreams or b) become some kind of superhero/ine.  

When I say I don't see people like me in entertainment, it's not about race or ethnicity.  It's a matter of people who perform the essential functions of keeping the wheels from falling off the modern world.  Used to be the prize for that kind of thing was a gold watch.  Now it's probably a certificate of some kind, or maybe a layoff notice short of retirement (but think of how much this benefits the stockholder!)

Most people will never have to worry about making it big.  Realistically now, a huge percentage are worried about making it at all.  Which is why it's difficult sometimes to be confronted with stories about winning big, or saving the day, or everything coming together for the happily ever after.  This is not to talk down on escapist entertainment in general - rather this is pointing out that seeing others constantly getting all these marvelous things eventually leads to burnout, then biting cynicism.  



That Guy Named Aaron said:


> This might come across as being disrespectful to this community (but it's not meant to) when I say that sometimes I feel alienated here because it seems like I'm the only person here NOT writing about sci-fi or fantasy or fan-dom, but at the same time I take pride in the fact I'm going down a different path. (And yeah, I know there's probably more, so don't freak out, dear peeps. We all good in da hood).



Your club card is in the mail.  Sci-fi has always been hit or miss with me...one of those genres too easily overwhelmed by Big Ideas at the cost of all else, or otherwise a kind of Laser Western (in Space!).  Fantasy is often as not an inferior repackaging straightjacketed by the influence of Tolkien or latterly Martin, if not thinly-veiled clones of popular gaming franchises.  Fanfic is altogether alien; I cannot for the life of me imagine putting my name to somebody else's labor, nor can I see any return on what is best-case an expansion scaffolded by the work of another.  

I put more value on somebody cutting their own trail, no matter the popularity.  And remember - the Next Big Thing has _never_ grown out of the Last Big Thing.  



That Guy Named Aaron said:


> So no, there's a place for you. Write the damn book.  Write the living crap outta it. Hell, write it with a chip on your shoulder.
> 
> A.C.




_ - enthusiastic raccoon howling - _


----------



## Parabola

Taylor said:


> Wondering about my validity as a fiction writer.   I don't want to write about the hapless, poor downtrodden ... I don't want to write about the selfless, non-materialistic hero ... I don't want to write about the heartless, corporate villain.  I want to write about ordinary people who deal with ordinary life and make ordinary mistakes along the way. Perhaps there is no place for me in fiction.



This actually had me thinking a bit. One of my projects is sort of "slice of life" horror. I guess the intersection of domestic-horror is fairly common in the genre, but more specifically I prefer "slow burns" that focus on atmosphere/character. Obviously I keep plot in mind, still I'm writing stuff that I like and don't really concern myself with genre trappings. So that last line resonated.


----------



## indianroads

Taylor said:


> Wondering about my validity as a fiction writer.   I don't want to write about the hapless, poor downtrodden ... I don't want to write about the selfless, non-materialistic hero ... I don't want to write about the heartless, corporate villain.  I want to write about ordinary people who deal with ordinary life and make ordinary mistakes along the way. Perhaps there is no place for me in fiction.


Just saw this - YOU'RE WRONG.
You're a talented writer that's driven to tell a story. You've written about corporate / accounting struggles, you might stick to that BUT have your main character(s) be the common people that are affected by the foibles and greed of businesses. Try changing your focus first.

If that doesn't fit your fancy, take another step back. Write about a woman preparing to get married - maybe her fiance cheats on her and she's dealing with whether or not to go through with the wedding. Write about older people struggling to make payments when the interest rate keeps going up. Write about a couple struggling to balance their careers with raising kids and dealing with day to day stuff.

DON'T STOP WRITING. The world is too quiet already, don't give up.


----------



## Explosia

So, by the strangest turn of fate, I have been having a beta reader going through my main WIP, and I've been beta reading for them in exchange, but lemme tell you....

I can tell my beta reader is getting _so bored_ with my WIP, and that is like........ the most devastating thing...!  It's of course by no means the end of the world, because I couldn't claim that my WIP was "finished" anyway by a long shot. What this means is that there's still more work to be done with it, and I expected that to be the case...!

But man, you start to really feel guilty when you see that someone is slogging through your story and not really enjoying it... And the general consensus for my writing thus far seems to be: Needs more active characters and emotion. Also, I keep basically dropping sub plots lollllll...

Oh my god, though, there's still so much work ahead.

But I really think this kind of thing is a result of the characters just not being fleshed out enough. There's also the case that I keep _trying_ to write in third-person omniscient... but that's just not appealing to people anymore, unless you're gonna go for a "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" kind of comedic vibe.

Which meeeeeans I've got to close my POV in tighter... and that, of course, means a LOT of tweaking to the text... and possibly having to bust up some golden paragraphs.   Because them paragraphs are definitely not written the way the character would "think" them...


----------



## indianroads

What's going on in my writing...
I thought my current edit of Moonscape would be the last one, but I'm making a few minor changes and want to go through it ONE MORE TIME before releasing it into the wild. So my late November release is starting to look like early December.


----------



## Taylor

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> I’m waiting to hear back from all the betas, but already getting solid feedback and it has me thinking and retooling. I’m progressing, but not nearly where I want to be.


Good things take time.  


That Guy Named Aaron said:


> That being said, @Taylor, if you’re honestly interested in reading some of it, I’ll throw a doc together (flaws and blemishes and all) and message you a Dropbox link for you to for either enjoyment, inspiration, or make you laugh hysterically and wonder why I think I belong here.


Please do!


----------



## Taylor

Parabola said:


> This actually had me thinking a bit. One of my projects is sort of "slice of life" horror. I guess the intersection of domestic-horror is fairly common in the genre, but more specifically I prefer "slow burns" that focus on atmosphere/character. Obviously I keep plot in mind, still I'm writing stuff that I like and don't really concern myself with genre trappings. So that last line resonated.


So good to hear!  Those of us who don't write to a genre can sometimes get a bit derailed.  But as long as there's no editor pressuring us to deliver a set pattern, we might weave something special.  Keep up the good work @Parabola!


----------



## Taylor

indianroads said:


> Just saw this - YOU'RE WRONG.
> You're a talented writer that's driven to tell a story.


Thank you! I needed to hear that!!  Especially coming from you, a GREAT writer I'm inspired by.



indianroads said:


> You've written about corporate / accounting struggles, you might stick to that BUT have your main character(s) be the common people that are affected by the foibles and greed of businesses. Try changing your focus first.


That's just it. I actually love what I'm writing about. There's something that many people don't see, and that is people who get caught up in greed, for various reasons, and they have a story. Perhaps it's not one that people are willing to accept. Like, I just discovered that the U.S. government tried to pass an Act in 2006 that would have prevented the crash in 2008. So why didn't it go through? Lobbying? Greed? Politics? That's the level of intrigue that interests me.

I'll finish the Titan series, mostly because I'm telling a story that no one else is. Then, I might change my focus, and that IS good advice, IR.



indianroads said:


> If that doesn't fit your fancy, take another step back. Write about a woman preparing to get married - maybe her fiance cheats on her and she's dealing with whether or not to go through with the wedding. Write about older people struggling to make payments when the interest rate keeps going up. Write about a couple struggling to balance their careers with raising kids and dealing with day to day stuff.
> 
> DON'T STOP WRITING. The world is too quiet already, don't give up.


OK ... I won't!     I'll likely stay away from the relationship/romance genre, but themes of interest rates, careers, aging ... those things are up my wheelhouse. I have an idea about a YA series that introduces life's hard lessons around early career and financial decisions that are hard to overcome. They don't teach that stuff in school.

I guess we all go through these moments of doubt, and it's amazing how this community rallies around when we need uplifting.

THANK YOU, everyone!!!


----------



## EternalGreen

Taylor said:


> Wondering about my validity as a fiction writer.   I don't want to write about the hapless, poor downtrodden ... I don't want to write about the selfless, non-materialistic hero ... I don't want to write about the heartless, corporate villain.  I want to write about ordinary people who deal with ordinary life and make ordinary mistakes along the way. Perhaps there is no place for me in fiction.


That's what literary fiction is for.


----------



## Parabola

Explosia said:


> Which meeeeeans I've got to close my POV in tighter... and that, of course, means a LOT of tweaking to the text... and possibly having to bust up some golden paragraphs.   Because them paragraphs are definitely not written the way the character would "think" them...



Not just killing your darlings but erasing them so they never existed in the first place. Been there.


----------



## Taylor

EternalGreen said:


> That's what literary fiction is for.


Interesting!  What exactly do you consider literary fiction?  How would one know if they were writing it?


----------



## Explosia

Parabola said:


> Not just killing your darlings but erasing them so they never existed in the first place. Been there.


I think it's the sunk cost fallacy that makes it so difficult... like, man, I spent SO MUCH TIME polishing these paragraphs, gnnnrrrrrr................


----------



## Parabola

Taylor said:


> That's just it. I actually love what I'm writing about. There's something that many people don't see, and that is people who get caught up in greed, for various reasons, and they have a story. Perhaps it's not one that people are willing to accept. Like, I just discovered that the U.S. government tried to pass an Act in 2006 that would have prevented the crash in 2008. So why didn't it go through? Lobbying? Greed? Politics? That's the level of intrigue that interests me.



One thing I've noticed (and I've read a ton of politics/news based articles over the last several years), is there's a significant amount of interest in these kinds of corrupt figures or stories featuring them. I'd say go for it. Another thing is that people don't always know what they want until you give it to them.

People love the halls of power imo.


----------



## Taylor

Parabola said:


> Another thing is that people don't always know what they want until you give it to them.


That is my hope!    

Feeling so much better now!!  Thanks, @Parabola


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

Taylor said:


> Interesting!  What exactly do you consider literary fiction?  How would one know if they were writing it?



Maybe that's the genre I'm writing. Easier to say than Dark HistSitRoComErotaTrag


----------



## EternalGreen

Taylor said:


> Interesting!  What exactly do you consider literary fiction?  How would one know if they were writing it?


It means you focus almost exclusively on the characters rather than the plot or drama. It is considered more reflective. Literary fiction also tends to creatively test the limits of the medium and challenge conventions. The best literary fiction is often praised for authentically capturing a particular culture. The worst literary fiction aims to do this and fails. Authors of this genre tend to devote extra attention to their craftsmanship. 

If you check off several of these boxes, you are probably writing literary fiction.

Good literary fiction gives us the best novels ever written. Bad literary fiction is as boring as the taste of saliva.


----------



## EternalGreen

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> Maybe that's the genre I'm writing. Easier to say than Dark HistSitRoComErotaTrag


I want to read a dark historical romantic erotic tragic comedy (and whatever "sit" is)

Genres are like spices: You can't add too many, and they never conflict with each other.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

EternalGreen said:


> I want to read a dark historical romantic erotic tragic comedy (and whatever "sit" is)
> 
> Genres are like spices: You can't add too many, and they never conflict with each other.


Situational.


----------



## Parabola

@Taylor I actually have some ideas for political stuff I have no intent on using. 1) Climate change is a conspiracy concocted by the Illuminati (don't ask the "why" since I haven't thought of it). 2) Vampires/Aliens took over U.S. Congress, which could in theory sync up with the premise of shadowy financial scandals (those are a bit tongue in cheek but still).

Probably a ton more.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

EternalGreen said:


> I want to read a dark historical romantic erotic tragic comedy (and whatever "sit" is)
> 
> Genres are like spices: You can't add too many, and they never conflict with each other.



If you want, I'll send you the link to the blemish filled partial roughy like I am with Taylor. Working on getting it around right now as Wifey and I discuss co-worker who died over the weekend.


----------



## EternalGreen

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> If you want, I'll send you the link to the blemish filled partial roughy like I am with Taylor. Working on getting it around right now as Wifey and I discuss co-worker who died over the weekend.


Post it in the workshop


----------



## JBF

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> Maybe that's the genre I'm writing. Easier to say than Dark HistSitRoComErotaTrag



Easier on the spellcheck, at any rate.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

EternalGreen said:


> Post it in the workshop



I would but there's no prefix filter for whatever it is I write.

<puts _get out of jail free card_ back in wallet>


----------



## Explosia

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> I would but there's no prefix filter for whatever it is I write.
> 
> <puts _get out of jail free card_ back in wallet>


Don't know if it's in the list of prefixes, but there's always... 

_Contemporary fiction......_


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

<goes over to Fiction Workshop>

<looks at _filter prefixes._>

Nope. No _Contemporary Fiction_.


----------



## S J Ward

This nanowrimo thingy seems to have taken over my life. my word count per day is okayish but I can't concentrate on anyth


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

S J Ward said:


> This nanowrimo thingy seems to have taken over my life. my word count per day is okayish but I can't concentrate on anyth



The way some people have been acting about it, I didn't think anyone else could be as obsessed about the month of November except those who do No Nut November .... um.. other activities. Or lack of activity....


----------



## JBF

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> <goes over to Fiction Workshop>
> 
> <looks at _filter prefixes._>
> 
> Nope. No _Contemporary Fiction_.




 Join us in the cult esteemed circle of _literary_.  It's one of the few clubs from which one cannot legally be removed. 

Probably a big part of the reason I'm still there.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

I relented and posted a re-re-re-re-revised Chapter 1 again. Found a few flubs that I missed before I sent JBF and Taylor the links in messenger.  Feel free to point and laugh.


A.C.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

JBF said:


> Join us in the cult esteemed circle of _literary_.  It's one of the few clubs from which one cannot legally be removed.
> 
> Probably a big part of the reason I'm still there.



I used that one.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

EternalGreen said:


> Post it in the workshop



Be careful what you ask for…


----------



## AnneLaurant

Currently trying to work on my multichaptered story for my characters again! I still struggle with choosing the kinds of information I should include, since the story serves as an explanation for how the characters first met each other.

Nonetheless, I'm excited to write again!


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

AnneLaurant said:


> Currently trying to work on my multichaptered story for my characters again! I still struggle with choosing the kinds of information I should include, since the story serves as an explanation for how the characters first met each other.
> 
> Nonetheless, I'm excited to write again!



Write, now. Edit, later.


----------



## Storyteller

I just did my first Friday Flash. ~865 words got pared down to 296. That was harder than actually writing the story.


----------



## VRanger

Storyteller said:


> I just did my first Friday Flash. ~865 words got pared down to 296. That was harder than actually writing the story.


You betcha!


----------



## AnneLaurant

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> Write, now. Edit, later.


I have done that before, but unfortunately, this method had only discouraged me when I realized the edits to a previous chapter would require me to rewrite the whole next chapters, and rewriting easily saps away my motivation.


----------



## indianroads

AnneLaurant said:


> I have done that before, but unfortunately, this method had only discouraged me when I realized the edits to a previous chapter would require me to rewrite the whole next chapters, and rewriting easily saps away my motivation.


Perhaps you should plot your story throughly before starting out on the draft.


----------



## AnneLaurant

indianroads said:


> Perhaps you should plot your story throughly before starting out on the draft.


Thank you, but I've done that too with a former work, and I ended up losing interest and motivation while trying to stick to the plan. XD


----------



## PiP

S J Ward said:


> This nanowrimo thingy seems to have taken over my life. my word count per day is okayish but I can't concentrate on anyth


That's what my husband says about me.  Yesterday, he told me it's got to the point where he even has to ask permission to talk when I am in the zone.


----------



## VRanger

AnneLaurant said:


> I have done that before, but unfortunately, this method had only discouraged me when I realized the edits to a previous chapter would require me to rewrite the whole next chapters, and rewriting easily saps away my motivation.


I'm kind of that way too. I prefer to get the story 'right as I write'. ;-) Except for a rare miss on continuity, I typically only edit for sentence clarity and things like a character name mistake, then proofread for typos. On the other hand, I've been writing stories for a really long time, so I'm lucky enough to have developed a feel for how they should play out and pace themselves as I write.


----------



## Parabola

The myth of linear progression as a writer. It seems intuitive to say that published writers get better over time, but probably for some of the more successful ones there isn't the "ego check" so they get the praise anyway without delivering the gold ingot. They get somewhat-substantially-profoundly worse, along a spectrum naturally, now not to suggest they can't bounce back with a "big hit" but that's not a foregone conclusion.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

VRanger said:


> I'm kind of that way too. I prefer to get the story 'right as I write'. ;-) Except for a rare miss on continuity, I typically only edit for sentence clarity and things like a character name mistake, then proofread for typos. On the other hand, I've been writing stories for a really long time, so I'm lucky enough to have developed a feel for how they should play out and pace themselves as I write.



I wrote my "skeletons" because I was afraid I would either write myself into a corner, come up with a better plot object for a previous book, contradict something done or said earlier, forget something along the way, forget where I was going, or forget what other reasons I had. 

Kids, please don't try this at home. I'm an untrained amatuer.....


----------



## indianroads

AnneLaurant said:


> Thank you, but I've done that too with a former work, and I ended up losing interest and motivation while trying to stick to the plan. XD


We each have to discover our own method - our own work flow. If what you are doing isn't working, try something else.


----------



## Parabola

What the hell? Scratchy throat? Other flu like symptoms?  I most likely won't be writing today.


----------



## Parabola

And that's just what the Illuminati wants! To silence me!


----------



## Lawless

AnneLaurant said:


> I've done that too with a former work, and I ended up losing interest and motivation while trying to stick to the plan.


So would you say you are most creative when you write spontaneously?


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

Parabola said:


> What the hell? Scratchy throat? Other flu like symptoms?  I most likely won't be writing today.



Hope you get to feeling better.


----------



## Splinter

What's on my mind about my writing?
I'm a lazy so and so, but when I get the bit between my teeth...


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

Splinter said:


> What's on my mind about my writing?
> I'm a lazy so and so, but when I get the bit between my teeth...


You live!  Long time, no see...


----------



## Splinter

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> You live!  Long time, no see...


Cheers, mate. Scratching a living and zooming around on my new motorcycle have distracted me a tad


----------



## indianroads

What's your new ride?


----------



## Splinter

indianroads said:


> What's your new ride?


Royal Enfield Himalayan in Rock Red.
Enter the dragon!


----------



## indianroads

Splinter said:


> Royal Enfield Himalayan in Rock Red.
> Enter the dragon!


Got a picture of it?


----------



## Splinter

indianroads said:


> Got a picture of it?


Of course, mate!


----------



## indianroads

Splinter said:


> Of course, mate!


OH BABY! She's beautiful!


----------



## taher1980

chrismhayes1980 said:


> This is what I wrote as what I felt was a way to show he wasn't superhuman or that he was favored.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Posting this because of my roommate
> 
> 
> 
> So this whole poll came about after my roommate sat there and totally trashed this next entry saying that now my main character was not worth writing about and he's giving me writer's block could I get some outside input please   Oren then said a small phrase and suddenly the entire location was...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.writingforums.com


Really nice writing.


----------



## Parabola

Did some thinking this morning and added some additional stuff to Billy's character. Had to "up the ante" a bit.


----------



## Terrence Trent

I don't think that i a a good writter, maybe i just need some more xeprience or sort of, who knows. Maybe in time i will lean how to write more complex and creative texts, but frankly i wasn't even good with writting an essays at school and university


----------



## C.K.Johnson

I found this interesting example of a pitch (made deliberately inappropriate) for Wizard of Oz: 

"Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first person she meets and teams up with three strangers to kill again." 

Completely valid, but it sells the story to a different type of reader.


----------



## indianroads

Terrence Trent said:


> I don't think that i a a good writter, maybe i just need some more xeprience or sort of, who knows


Abilities can be learned - so all that really matters is desire and perseverance to attain your goal.


----------



## M J Tennant 2022

Rubbish.  No sexual chemistry between the two main characters in the scene I wrote today.  Re-write tomorrow methinks!  It read like brother and sister having a fairly mundane chat (but with an 'elephant in the room' vibe).

Just plain weird.  I am going to pretend today didn't happen I think.

M J x


----------



## Explosia

Getting ready to do a read through of the next chapter to send to my ongoing beta reader, then I'm going to hunker down for the long-haul edit of the next chapter in my horror novella............ I have like.......... two weeks left. One week left, really, if I want to make sure I give myself time to write a cover letter, format the file, etc. for submission.......

Generally speaking, I tend to observe life through a lens of "Hope for rainbows but expect rain."  It's a realistic kind of optimism for me. That said, it's most likely my story will be rejected. But (maybe?) there's a tiny fraction of a chance that someone will dig it? And if not, well, this was a really good push toward developing it further. And so I just have to keep my eye out for other open calls down the line after this one.

Anyhoo.......... it's Sunday. The work week begins tomorrow.     Can't I just spend the rest of my life writing and editing all day every day, pleeeeeeeeease.........?


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

In WIP Book VI of the series, _The World's Greatest Ex-Boyfriend_, MC1 (Chris) gets a job at the shop where MC2 (Jet) works. Like Jet, Chris becomes a forklift driver. (I know all of you are just astonished at my outside-the-box creative story idea. Yeah, I don't know where these amazing ideas come from, either.) One of the recurring minor characters I introduce is a ex-Vietnam War vet they call "Flakey."  Flakey never mentally returned from SE Asia, as the name might suggest. He's in his mid 40's when we met him, and had seen action in the latter part of the war (early 70s'). He later reveals he took part in classified actions in both Laos and Cambodia, but refuses to elaborate other than vague derogatory comments on the people of those countries.

Hold that though for a moment...

An idea I have for a different character is a older male that frequents a seedier topless bar on a regular basis. Even though it's not his real name, the dancers there know him as "Willard', because as he puts it 'If the dancers can have a stage name, I can have a table name.' As the book series progresses, the reader learns that the dancers even come to his residence and pick him up and then take him home after the club closes, although there's no indication of any sexual activity going on. He does lavish the dancers with small gifts and money.

I'm debating now about combining them both into the Flakey character. He meets a tragic end (sorry, spoiler), and it just adds to dark humor of when MC2 and the other workers attend his visitation (a funeral home full of strippers dressed in a manner that you're not sure if they're aware they're at a funeral and not at work.) It also works well with his state-of-mind and behavior. And the more I thought about it as I typed this drivel, the more I like the idea.

None of you might, but I do.


----------



## Parabola

Tomorrow, it's back to Leo, a simple dog story turned on its pointy head. Billy's four-legged buddy (probably doesn't sound right when you phrase it that way), is an onion with infinite layers.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

Explosia said:


> Anyhoo.......... it's Sunday. The work week begins tomorrow.     Can't I just spend the rest of my life writing and editing all day every day, pleeeeeeeeease.........?



Mine starts in a few hours. But believe me, I'd rather be home editing and writing.


A.C.


----------



## VRanger

Now that I've finished LLW, the next project up is Part-Time Pagan God 2. I've enjoyed writing on three projects simultaneously, as anytime I need time to think about the next stuff in one, I typically have ideas for one or both of the others. I've been VERY productive.

PTPG is written in quite a different voice than I use in other work ... a first person hip, wry, self-deprecating and occasionally self-pitying voice that takes a different state of mind to get into. LOL So right now I'm rereading PTPG to refresh that voice, and as I sometimes do, wondering if I can recapture that. I don't want to sound like I'm bragging, but I typically enjoy what I write and I'm very much enjoying this reread. But I've got something like two jokes a page in some places, and I have to wonder if I can think funny enough often enough again to keep that up for a second entire book in the series. But ... maybe by the time I'm into my second glass of port of an evening it will come to me. That's pretty much the way book one got written. ;-)


----------



## indianroads

VRanger said:


> Now that I've finished LLW, the next project up is Part-Time Pagan God 2. I've enjoyed writing on three projects simultaneously, as anytime I need time to think about the next stuff in one, I typically have ideas for one or both of the others. I've been VERY productive.
> 
> PTPG is written in quite a different voice than I use in other work ... a first person hip, wry, self-deprecating and occasionally self-pitying voice that takes a different state of mind to get into. LOL So right now I'm rereading PTPG to refresh that voice, and as I sometimes do, wondering if I can recapture that. I don't want to sound like I'm bragging, but I typically enjoy what I write and I'm very much enjoying this reread. But I've got something like two jokes a page in some places, and I have to wonder if I can think funny enough often enough again to keep that up for as second entire book in the series. But ... maybe by the time I'm into my second glass of port of an evening it will come to me. That's pretty much the way book one got written. ;-)


I read Part Time Pagan God - the character's voice and attitude was fun, captivating, and amazing. I'm looking forward to reading the next novel in the series.


----------



## indianroads

Finished the eighth edit of Moonscape, and I made more changes than I planned on, so ... yup, heading into the ninth edit.
I gotta do what I gotta do to make it the best I can. Shortcuts are not allowed.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

Beta reader told me one of my chapters was totally unnecessary. Actually debating the notion of nuking, and just referencing the activities in it in the next chapter.


----------



## VRanger

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> Beta reader told me one of my chapters was totally unnecessary. Actually debating the notion of nuking, and just referencing the activities in it in the next chapter.


Here's my rule on "one beta reader". Worthless advice. The only advice you should consider are notes which come from EVERY beta reader, or at least a large enough percentage it starts to become obvious to you. Even THEN, only make a change if what the beta reader explores IS an obvious issue to YOU. One reader (and a member here ... he knows who he is LOL) told me to dump the first six chapters of Rudbek of Rudbek. I get where he came from ... I've got my MC sitting in an office and little else for six chapters. But I needed that to segue from the end of Citizen of the Galaxy to where I wanted my sequel to go. They meant something to me, and he was the only reader to mention that out of dozens.

I also have about 300-400 words about how my FTL drive works. Two readers out of dozens mentioned they thought it wasn't necessary. However, that section amused me and the note came from two readers out of dozens ... plus that type of diversion from the story matches what Heinlein did time and time again ... and I wanted to match his style. So it stayed.

This is one of several reasons I don't do beta readers. I'm happy for people to read in advance of publication, and delighted if they find typos. LOL The question is, whether or not that chapter is necessary, IS IT INTERESTING?

Again on my constant manta: "If it's interesting it can stay, no matter what."


----------



## Parabola

So I updated my post to "something" instead of Leo. Had an image rattling around in my head, so it's a contest between that and my WIP. Sort of have a story for the former but to be accurate it's more a vague sentiment I'd have to flesh out. If anything, it would be flash fiction.


----------



## Parabola

Writing about Halloween is always fun.


----------



## S J Ward

I have a character called Edgar, twelve years old and an escapee from a coalmine that was purposely collapsed in covering up a murder. This part is set in the early 19th C. To go with it I have a 21st C caving accident. Both stories are linked through ghostly activity. 
The main part, is that Edgar is killed after he miraculously escapes the mine by the murderer of the mine workers, Jethro. I can't rewrite a whole book to give Edgar a happy ending. But I am saddened by his impending demise. I've enjoyed writing this character so much, I really don't want to kill him off!


----------



## Parabola

So I'm thinking once Billy picks up the memento, he looks up and is back at Joe's birthday party. The supposedly never-ending night was clearly meant to spur some reflection, which means the journey back would be repetitive and pointless unless I injected something interesting. Plus, it's only a partial dream, so it wouldn't be inconsistent for the setting to shift abruptly. 

Going forward, it's an uneasy balance with Billy's character since Toby brings out unsavory sides (that do exist but are amplified), causing him to have a fight with his gf, Evelyn. They break up, boo hoo and such, then he decides to take the leap into the semi-dream world again where he faces the undead.


----------



## Parabola

Knew someone in the writing world who said my (non-novel) stuff was experimental. I still keep in contact with him years later etc but haven't bothered with pursuing that even though he seemed to have suggestions about placement. With that particular style(s), that was the general impression, ie experimental. At this stage, I just like to write stuff and up the ante in this moldy antechamber that I've allotted for myself, rather than having any kind of concrete "getting published" ambition. I tend to "talk shop" with people who intuitively get that angle.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

My solo idiot-energy music project 15 years ago was something I described as "experimental with the emphasis on 'mental'"


----------



## Parabola

I'm writing Leo during a chaotic yet mundane period in life circumstances. In some strange way, whether or not I do anything with it, it's sort of a time capsule that I'll open up a few years from now.


----------



## LaVosha Kern

I can't do revisions.

My first drafts are not always perfect, but they are ALWAYS better than any kind of revisions I try to do afterward. I have had this hang-up since I first started writing. It's never bothered me before, but I'm currently trying to write a one-woman show and I'm starting to get in my own way by pressuring myself to make every sentence perfect because I know I usually can't capture the magic past the first draft.


----------



## KatPC

LaVosha Kern said:


> I can't do revisions.
> 
> My first drafts are not always perfect, but they are ALWAYS better than any kind of revisions I try to do afterward. I have had this hang-up since I first started writing. It's never bothered me before, but I'm currently trying to write a one-woman show and I'm starting to get in my own way by pressuring myself to make every sentence perfect because I know I usually can't capture the magic past the first draft.


Hey @LaVosha Kern 

Allow me to tell you a story about my writing technique. It isn't perfect and others have better methods and write better than me but (for me) you seem to place a lot pressure in making a great first draft. Know that there are many stages of editing and it is near impossible to get it right first time. What I suggest is that you let your imagination go and be creative and not think too much because this is where all the raw emotions and feelings are found. Sure in the editing phases you may feel you lose these elements that brings up the passion and soul within a story, you may even feel that the 'magic' is fading but this is where you have to trust your gut, your first reaction when writing this first draft ... you will know if it is good or not.

Editing is actually refining a gem, and more often that not, you won't realise you are sprinkling it with magic too.


----------



## indianroads

@LaVosha Kern : @KatPC gave you so really excellent advice.
My method is similar to his, except that a pretty intense plotter. Plotting keeps me on track. Without a plot I’d be lost in the weeds.
While plotting the story, I’m creative- building the world, getting to know the characters, and moving big chunks of the plot around. Once it is cohesive, I dive into the draft, and the smaller chunks come together. Then I start editing, it’s a sanding then burnishing process where parts of the story mesh and become smooth.

I think my point is that each of us have our own unique method/process we follow to create our stories. Because it’s unique to each of us, it takes some time to figure out how you will do it. Every problem yields to perseverance though, so keep at it an trust that you will figure it out.


----------



## Parabola

I think if I ever wrote a western (maybe short story), it will be after my dad passed and would be inspired by the movie "Open Range." We saw that one years ago. Good atmosphere/general vibe. I remember one scene where they're riding horses across a meadow with stormy skies overhead, for some reason that visual stuck with me.


----------



## indianroads

I'm in the process of rolling up Moonscape - Just need to the the categories and the advert stuff in place.
Looking forward I have three stories vying to pull me in...
*Erased:* A man (hacker) that has had his memory erased as punishment for his crime. (Weakest of the bunch, but still a contender.)
*Maelstrom:* A sort of mix of 1984 and Brave New World. (A strong contender.)
*Lost:* A time travel story - my unique version of how it's done, and adventures around the time Gobekli Tepe was used. (Maybe the strongest contender - BUT it's a lot different than my other books, and so may not be a wise move.)

Unsure of which I'll choose. I'll let it rest and decide in the next week or two.

ETA:
I think this will be a 3 book series. Maelstrom, Lost, Erased. The plots should fit together well.


----------



## Parabola

My protagonist isn't an angel, and that's all the more reason to toss him a halo.


----------



## Parabola

So I saw a reader request for an in progress novel I'm assuming I can do the same thing with mine? Thinking about doing this with Leo since it's not done yet, and I'd like an impression or two.


----------



## indianroads

My eleventh novel (I'm shocked that I've written and published so many) is up and running on Amazon.
Next up is what may be a three novel series (dystopian, time-travel stuff), and I'm starting in on the research.
1. Life in Nazi Germany before the war.
2. The 'Mole people' of New York.
3. Gobekli Tepe, and conditions, population, etc. around 8500 BCE.
4. The Multiverse.
5. Theories about Time Travel.

I love writing stories, and can't wait to get into this one.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

Had breakfast this morning with published author coworker, and he went over his thoughts on my book. Took lots of notes. Got my shins kicked really good.
I found it interesting that he felt I had “de-smutted” the book too much. We’re talking two raging hormone teenagers, you know they’re going to be bumping uglies quite a bit. I wrote the parts enough to that the reader knew what was going to happen, then moved on to the next part (with an exception of a couple is scenes). So I guess question is “to smut or not to smut” as I drink my coffee and watch a NNNIIICCCEEE eight point buck graze at the birdfeeder (note to self - more corn in the next batch of critter mix).


----------



## indianroads

Reading up on Time Travel theories - will use it on the second book of the Maelstrom series. I want to keep it loosely kinda-sorta plausible.
It's dull reading but interesting stuff.


----------



## VRanger

indianroads said:


> Reading up on Time Travel theories - will use it on the second book of the Maelstrom series. I want to keep it loosely kinda-sorta plausible.
> It's dull reading but interesting stuff.


I had time travel in BK2 and now again in BK3. That was the two chapters I wrote last night. Ket and Anlette have traveled back in time and are now about to undertake the mission to save Me-Aln. The mage Kaldarius has the first line.

"Wizardry didn’t know he’d been followed, so he can’t know you’re following him. I don’t know if you can change that history, but don’t test the theory.”

Anlette had a question. “But if we can’t change that history, aren’t we changing history for Me-Aln?”

“We batted that notion around. We know Wizardry’s history on this day. We don’t know the conclusion for Me-Aln. Magic thinks our knowledge of an event, or lack of it, may determine if we can alter it. Lore isn’t so sure. I suppose you’ll soon find out."

Ket had thought this out but no one had brought it up. “But maybe we aren’t changing Me-Aln’s path … because we succeed and that always happened, or will happen. I always get a bit shaky on those before and afters.”


----------



## indianroads

@VRanger
Time travel is currently impossible, but I want the method in my novel to be loosely plausible.
My notes so far:

Machine mustRetain relative position to earth (end up in vacuum) - must project subject to new location. Earth + solar system + galaxy move in space-time.Travel to A past not THE past / current future unchanged / new past & present created - wouldn't notice.Simple passage through PAST or FUTURE alters quantum composition = different past and different future.Time speed varies by location (gravity)Distort/Bend/fold fabric of space-time / negative bend = travel to the past, positive bend = travel to the future


SubjectBody not transported. Subject reduced to energy - no physical form - aging & speed inertia problemSnapshot of personality without memories disconnects and travels - leaves empty shell behind.Energy projected into an already existing being in the past.Body left behind: memories disassocited, subject loses memories. Beast human remains.Subject compelled to leave item to be found in the present day to prove existence.Subject can not return to present (no machine in the past)


----------



## Parabola

Not sure if I should write a short thing or continue with Leo. Also considered making the latter shorter than 30k.


----------



## Explosia

After having submerged myself in that horror novella for like 2 - 3 months, now I'm trying to get back to where I left off for my big WIP... which means I have to get back in that head space, but also, I left the last chapter off on a cliffhanger, so like I still need to figure out the next sequence of events lol. 

That is to say, there already was a sequence of events, but they're just not quite what I want... trying to figure out how to "recast" this final act so to speak. Trying to decide if one scene in particular should even happen or not. I want it to, but because of the order of events that would have to happen, it just doesn't quite make sense... one pivotal character shows up, but I'm not exactly sure what he should do... So I'm trying to think of _why_ he would show up at that moment. What would compel him to be there??? And if he doesn't show up, then what should happen instead? 

I'm leaning more toward "he should show up" because he's a bit of a fun character to write. But... still... _why??_ Why should he be therrrre...... 

Brainstorming time...........!!


----------



## Parabola

Still cream cheese bagel when it comes to word count.


----------



## KatPC

The annoyances of a confused mind. 

The muddle waters makes it tough to see a path ahead as the mind wonders about whether my stories and ideas have a direction do they just cycle around a small pond as I statue to calm the soot and dirt.

I have deep faith in my ideas but the confidences are shallow as I try to settle the unsettled mind. The question of what do you want with writing continue to hide behind the weeds ... and one which I cannot see clearly.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

KatPC said:


> The annoyances of a confused mind.



Like trying to figure out the word for _College alumni who donate money to their alma mater are known as what?_


----------



## Parabola

Blowing bubbles in a sunlit coffin. A sick joke accompanied by an accordion smile. But the canned laughter comes from deep in my soul, or something...perhaps I'm drunk.


----------



## LoveofWriting

Trying to finish my novel 'Elsewhere' as I am on Chapter 6 atm. About to submit more poems to other journals like I had done yesterday.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

Cruising around the workplace on 9000 pounds of silent bright orange death dropping off caustic liquid stuff to an area of the shop that ran out, when it dawns on me that MC1 dies literally a week before his birthday.

I hadn’t planned it that way, I swear!


----------



## Joker

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> Cruising around the workplace on 9000 pounds of silent bright orange death dropping off caustic liquid stuff to an area of the shop that ran out, when it dawns on me that MC1 dies literally a week before his birthday.
> 
> I hadn’t planned it that way, I swear!



Dammit Aaron, he was one week from retirement!

He was a good cop


----------



## Parabola

indianroads said:


> @VRanger
> Time travel is currently impossible, but I want the method in my novel to be loosely plausible.
> My notes so far:
> 
> Machine mustRetain relative position to earth (end up in vacuum) - must project subject to new location. Earth + solar system + galaxy move in space-time.Travel to A past not THE past / current future unchanged / new past & present created - wouldn't notice.Simple passage through PAST or FUTURE alters quantum composition = different past and different future.Time speed varies by location (gravity)Distort/Bend/fold fabric of space-time / negative bend = travel to the past, positive bend = travel to the future
> 
> 
> SubjectBody not transported. Subject reduced to energy - no physical form - aging & speed inertia problemSnapshot of personality without memories disconnects and travels - leaves empty shell behind.Energy projected into an already existing being in the past.Body left behind: memories disassocited, subject loses memories. Beast human remains.Subject compelled to leave item to be found in the present day to prove existence.Subject can not return to present (no machine in the past)



Just don't go all "beautiful mind" on us


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

Parabola said:


> Just don't go all "beautiful mind" on us



He’s allowed to. Better him than Joker.


----------



## Joker

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> He’s allowed to. Better him than Joker.


----------



## Parabola

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> He’s allowed to. Better him than Joker.



I've always wondered about that. Joker vs Riddler (I guess @indianroads would be the Riddler in this scenario since he seems focused on time travel puzzles), but that's a separate thread lol.


----------



## Joker

Parabola said:


> I've always wondered about that. Joker vs Riddler (I guess @indianroads would be the Riddler in this scenario since he seems focused on time travel puzzles), but that's a separate thread lol.



There was an entire comic arc about that not too long ago. The War of Jokes and Riddles.


----------



## Parabola

Joker said:


> There was an entire comic arc about that not too long ago. The War of Jokes and Riddles.



I'll have to check it out. Riddler's had some interesting stuff lately come out lately, "One Bad Day" and prequel. Haven't bought them yet, but it's interesting they're adding elements to his character.


----------



## Joker

Parabola said:


> I'll have to check it out. Riddler's had some interesting stuff lately come out lately, "One Bad Day" and prequel. Haven't bought them yet, but it's interesting they're adding elements to his character.



Great, now they need to do the same for my boy Scarecrow. He's had the spotlight in Arkham Knight and that's pretty much it.


----------



## indianroads

I'm toying with the idea for a series of 'Jack Reacher' type books - I've always wanted to write something like that, based on my two book Outlaw series. If I do write that genre, I may change my pen name so it doesn't conflict with my SciFi stuff.
There's plenty of time for me to consider it, I'm barely half way through the plots of my Maelstrom (3 books) series.


----------



## Emile Perez

How to not write a YA novel. Whilst I don't have anything against YA novels that's not the type of story I want to write. That being said it has a lot in common with YA novels:

His parents are deceased (although he has a parental figure in the book who is also planned for death later).
He's a "Teen" (16) although considered an adult due to it being medieval inspired.
He's "special" from a certain point of view, being one of a small group of knights that hunts down monsters.
And as writing is progressing I have the option to give him a "teen" friend group/posse or instead (which I am now thinking of leaning towards) "friendly adults" both being Knights (where he is only a Squire at the start of the book) and both being in their early 20s.
 
What I really want is to write a story about:

Courage
Religion (Pros/Cons)
Being Multicultural
Whilst I do intend it to be a coming of age story for the main character; learning to connect with his roots, learning how to deal with the death of his parents in a non-toxic way, I don't really have any interest in adding a love story, and I fully intend for my novel to be on the gritty side.


----------



## S J Ward

I need to find a place where... The dogs don't require walking four times a day; I'm not expected to involve myself in any conversations with family members: when the post man comes into the house delivering mail, he doesn't come to drink coffee and expect a half-hours chat; the scenery is bland and uninteresting. I just need to lock myself away to get on with my writing in an environment exuding peaceful calm. The problem is... I'll probably starve to death if it happens or I'll be in prison.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

S J Ward said:


> I need to find a place where... The dogs don't require walking four times a day; I'm not expected to involve myself in any conversations with family members: when the post man comes into the house delivering mail, he doesn't come to drink coffee and expect a half-hours chat; the scenery is bland and uninteresting. I just need to lock myself away to get on with my writing in an environment exuding peaceful calm. The problem is... I'll probably starve to death if it happens or I'll be in prison.



Come stateside and hide out in my garage. It's heated even. BYO tea and scones. 


A.C.


----------



## indianroads

S J Ward said:


> I need to find a place where... The dogs don't require walking four times a day; I'm not expected to involve myself in any conversations with family members: when the post man comes into the house delivering mail, he doesn't come to drink coffee and expect a half-hours chat; the scenery is bland and uninteresting. I just need to lock myself away to get on with my writing in an environment exuding peaceful calm. The problem is... I'll probably starve to death if it happens or I'll be in prison.


Sounds like you need to stop by my house.


----------



## Parabola

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> Come stateside and hide out in my garage. It's heated even. BYO tea and scones.
> 
> 
> A.C.



Challenge accepted!


----------



## Parabola

Saw a music video that kind of inspired me. I'm tempted to put words to screen even if it's just a short story, but at the same time it would have a racial/cultural element I'm unfamiliar with. Before anyone responds with "dude, don't bother and go offend the special snowflakes." That's hamfisted advice I don't really care for. It's the kind of thing that's a perpetual copout for shitty, edgelord writing. Now, where I'd like to go would be more of a complex picture, not something that pleases a fifth grader.


----------



## indianroads

I’m halfway through the plot of my time travel novel, Cyclone (second in the Maelstrom series). It’s going well.


----------



## Parabola

Over 500 words in Leo. Back on the horse if nothing else. 

Plus, and it's always a good thing, Billy just lost his halo.


----------



## Parabola

"This is the most complex I've ever written!"

Relax. You just started writing a week ago.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

Parabola said:


> "This is the most complex I've ever written!"
> 
> Relax. You just started writing a week ago.



I’m sitting here at my brother-in-law’s wedding and just roared out loud. Embarrassing, but worth it.


----------



## Parabola

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> I’m sitting here at my brother-in-law’s wedding and just roared out loud. Embarrassing, but worth it.



Actually, this isn't the first time I've done this to someone, but it might be the first time it's happened _at a wedding _


----------



## JBF

Every once in a while I consider burning it to the ground and starting something else.  New characters, new setting...all of it.


----------



## JJBuchholz

I'm still working on world-building for my new series, and it's come to a halt for the moment. I do have the
first three installments roughly plotted out, as well as the traits and persona of the main character, which is
nice I suppose. I really need to work on subplots and relations between the main character and a recurring
character before I start the actual writing itself.

-JJB


----------



## Parabola

Sometimes I have the urge to write short fiction, like 300ish. Surreal images pop into my head now and then after listening to some inspiring music. Need to get them out occasionally.


----------



## JJBuchholz

Parabola said:


> Surreal images pop into my head now and then after listening to some inspiring music. Need to get them out occasionally.



It's neat to know I'm not the only one that does this! More often than not, a song (either the lyrics or melody) strikes
a chord with me and brings up images of a story that fits the tune. I'm not sure why this happens, but I will never
complain about it!

-JJB


----------



## C.K.Johnson

I’ve not sold a copy of my debut novel in months. Suddenly a 1 star rating appears on Zon with no comment. Someone must be eaten alive with jealousy. I think it was my ex best friend. 
Sometimes toxic people leave your life for the most trivial reasons; it’s like the trash took itself out.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

JJBuchholz said:


> It's neat to know I'm not the only one that does this! More often than not, a song (either the lyrics or melody) strikes
> a chord with me and brings up images of a story that fits the tune. I'm not sure why this happens, but I will never
> complain about it!
> 
> -JJB



In the 90's, when I saw a serious hardcore table-top RPG-er, it wasn't uncommon for me to base characters off of Steely Dan and late 70's Jethro Tull songs, pending on the gaming system we were playing.

Why are you looking at me like that?


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

Deleted. Venting frustration.


----------



## indianroads

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> Deleted. Venting frustration.


We’ve all been there.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

indianroads said:


> We’ve all been there.


Makes me feel better, thanks.

A.C.


----------



## JBF

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> Makes me feel better, thanks.
> 
> A.C.



You know what else does that?  

Fire.  And explosions.  

And rabies.


----------



## Emile Perez

Another one I have is; how to write a fight scene. I'm near the end of chapter 2 and the "mother figure" of the MC is sparring with him but in short is going to kick his ass to teach him a lesson. The lesson she's trying to teach him is to not rush into anything and that patience is necessary at times. So during the sparring match I'm going to have her switch up sword fighting techniques to a more violent one.

And the best part about it is I have little knowledge about sword fighting, I took a class about it during college so I have a bit of an insight but I am currently having the MC dual wield in a "fantasy technique" that is supposed to be more defensive and cautious. So I definitely need a refresher (youtube is helping).

The one GOOD thing I have going for me is; The MC has no clue how to sword fight (relying on his Flintlocks and later a Kanabo) and my story is in First Person.


----------



## Parabola

Typically, I'm not much of a diplomat when it comes to creative stuffs but do my best. In my defense, I'm not trying to be an asshole, it just happens naturally.


----------



## Riptide

I don't know what to write about. I've been rewriting and revising, but I feel I need a break and to jump into a new story idea. Or revamp an older story idea that I never finished... but I don't know. I just know I want to write something. I just need to figure out what that something is and to get motivated about it


----------



## Parabola

I'm not sure what it says about me that I develop rivalries with passive aggressive, snot nosed little assbags. For whatever reason, that _also_ finds a way into some of my stories.


----------



## C.K.Johnson

I can’t concentrate on fiction while I have Christmas cookies to bake so I’ll be doing that tomorrow. One box to Nevada, one box to Colorado and one box to Arkansas.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

C.K.Johnson said:


> I can’t concentrate on fiction while I have Christmas cookies to bake so I’ll be doing that tomorrow. One box to Nevada, one box to Colorado and one box to Arkansas.


And one box to Michigan

(just kidding)


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

Need to step away from writing, until at least after the holidaze. Too much on me plate. Dec. 26th.. start writing again.

By the way, don't get me wrong. Not stepping away from here. Yer stuck with me...

<evil laughter>


----------



## VRanger

I think I can get a bit too deep into a story. Last night I'm on the phone with a friend and the subject of short days came up. I mentioned that we're already past the shortest day of the year, the 21st.

"Yeah Jim, that's still more than a week away."

I did a double take and laughed. LLW2, which I recently finished, takes place between Christmas and January 2nd. I wrote about having just passed the shortest day of the year. My head was still in the story.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

I've considered giving up but know that's only because I'm viewing the future based on depression which is never the best time to evaluate the situation. I'd joined a group with the intention of finding care work. My biggest problem was getting referees because I've been isolated for years and lost contact with all of my friends. I was pushing forward with my novel but they needed shorter pieces, within 500 words. At first I refused, explaining to them that it would be a distraction, but they kept at me and suggested they'd be able to be a referee if I engaged with their program. Reluctantly, I put my novel to one side and started writing shorter pieces again. 

The upshot of it all was that I completely lost the headspace for my novel. I can't seem to find my way back to it. I remember it clicking and thinking 'got it!' but try as I might, can't replicate that feeling. What makes this even worse is that those people who persuaded me to side track my novel and concentrate on writing shorter stories have now closed up shop ... literally 6 weeks after they'd side tracked me. I decided I was going to write a short story instead and started 'We Are 1'. Now it just feels like everything is getting away from me and the focus I had is lost. God, I hate it when people interfere with my process.

Now I'm considering taking yet another year to get back into it, writing shorter pieces as I did the first year. The difference though is that I'm going to be aiming to sell or put those stories forward for competitions and won't be focusing on the craft itself as I had before. It's just getting started again ...


----------



## Tettsuo

My first novel was not written well. At all. The amount of improvement I've done has been, IMO, extraordinary. Comparing the writing from my current novel to the first would be like a different writer created it. I keep thinking that I should go back and re-write my first novel, updating the prose to match my current skill level. Sadly, I had a hard drive crash, and I don't have access to the original text. I know I shouldn't be looking back like that, but I would like to update it anyway.


----------



## KatPC

Kent_Jacobs said:


> Now it just feels like everything is getting away from me and the focus I had is lost


Suggestion AZ.

I wrote my first draft novel and was advised to write short stories to improve my style and craft, it is the best advice I received. I have yet to return to my novel, more because I am working to 'write' better and knowing I need to do a full rewrite of the novel. What I do do is that my stories are all based around that world and for short stories simply write with the view of a character in your novel. You will find you will reconnect with the novel and then jump in.


----------



## Riptide

Kent_Jacobs said:


> The upshot of it all was that I completely lost the headspace for my novel. I can't seem to find my way back to it. I remember it clicking and thinking 'got it!' but try as I might, can't replicate that feeling.


Feel that. Novels are tough to maintain momentum and motivation. I don't know if itll help your situation but I've found just sitting down and writing gets me back into it. You can alter the text formatting, remind yourself to go back and fix this section but push through the slump and write yourself back into the novel.

Or, if the story isnt vibing maybe the issue is on the page. Maybe go back a scene and rewrite?


Kent_Jacobs said:


> Now I'm considering taking yet another year to get back into it, writing shorter pieces as I did the first year. The difference though is that I'm going to be aiming to sell or put those stories forward for competitions and won't be focusing on the craft itself as I had before. It's just getting started again ...


Not a bad idea. Keeps your skills sharp, but if you're struggling with maintaining interest, momentum for longer work, will it really help you get back?

Hope all is well, and that you find the headspace to continue your longer works. Sorry to hear about the group


----------



## Riptide

Tettsuo said:


> My first novel was not written well. At all. The amount of improvement I've done has been, IMO, extraordinary. Comparing the writing from my current novel to the first would be like a different writer created it. I keep thinking that I should go back and re-write my first novel, updating the prose to match my current skill level. Sadly, I had a hard drive crash, and I don't have access to the original text. I know I shouldn't be looking back like that, but I would like to update it anyway.


That sounds like a gift! You don't want to recreat the text, which always happens to me if I'm rewriting based off a text. It's hard for me to stray from the original.

I rewrite a lot. Our first novels are always the golden child. The one we want to recreate into a better form. it may literally be impossible. But not from the lack of trying on my end, at least.

I say if you have nothing else pressing you... maybe it's worth rewriting the plot


----------



## Riptide

I think I found a novel to start up. I slept on it and daydreamed and broke down the trilogy plot with my sister fir about an hour.

Now I just need to outline book one and write the dang thing


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

Riptide said:


> That sounds like a gift! You don't want to recreat the text, which always happens to me if I'm rewriting based off a text. It's hard for me to stray from the original.
> 
> I rewrite a lot. Our first novels are always the golden child. The one we want to recreate into a better form. it may literally be impossible. But not from the lack of trying on my end, at least.
> 
> I say if you have nothing else pressing you... maybe it's worth rewriting the plot


I think it will help, yeah. At the end of the day, the chances of me being traditionally published are low. I'm 64 years old. There are some people who have been published first time but I'm yet to come across one that hasn't had some connection with the industry (or writing in general) prior to publication. I'm a realist and always will be, and extremely and painfully honest with myself. Most authors have written many novels before they get their break and I really don't think I can produce the content necessary within the fantasy genre to fulfil those needs. Building a world and everything that goes into the world from scratch, adds a heck of a lot of work and time to the process. I should have started in my twenties ... then the process would have been viable (IMO). As of now, reality check taken into account, I feel I just need to prove my chops with short stories/novellas, and then try my hand at what I actually loved most, which was horror. I think I have more of a chance with that genre because there doesn't need to be any world building involved. So ... a year of proving my chops and then a horror novel. I'm not discounting the chance of returning to my fantasy novel though. Something might just click in the process of taking that year to write shorts for competitions and publication.


----------



## C.K.Johnson

Kent_Jacobs said:


> I think it will help, yeah. At the end of the day, the chances of me being traditionally published are low. I'm 64 years old. There are some people who have been published first time but I'm yet to come across one that hasn't had some connection with the industry (or writing in general) prior to publication. I'm a realist and always will be, and extremely and painfully honest with myself. Most authors have written many novels before they get their break and I really don't think I can produce the content necessary within the fantasy genre to fulfil those needs. Building a world and everything that goes into the world from scratch, adds a heck of a lot of work and time to the process. I should have started in my twenties ... then the process would have been viable (IMO). As of now, reality check taken into account, I feel I just need to prove my chops with short stories/novellas, and then try my hand at what I actually loved most, which was horror. I think I have more of a chance with that genre because there doesn't need to be any world building involved. So ... a year of proving my chops and then a horror novel. I'm not discounting the chance of returning to my fantasy novel though. Something might just click in the process of taking that year to write shorts for competitions and publication.


I didn’t start writing novels until I was 59. October 5, 2023 (days before my 62nd birthday) my first traditionally published novel will hit shelves at a bookstore near you. 
Don’t give up because you think you’re ‘too old’.  Keep trying until you find that joy again. I’ve definitely had low moments when I thought “why should I keep trying if no one cares but me?” But I care and that’s enough. You’re still going to get older, with or without writing/publishing.
You should do what makes you happy, because no one gets out alive.


----------



## Kent_Jacobs

C.K.Johnson said:


> I didn’t start writing novels until I was 59. October 5, 2023 (days before my 62nd birthday) my first traditionally published novel will hit shelves at a bookstore near you.
> Don’t give up because you think you’re ‘too old’.  Keep trying until you find that joy again. I’ve definitely had low moments when I thought “why should I keep trying if no one cares but me?” But I care and that’s enough. You’re still going to get older, with or without writing/publishing.
> You should do what makes you happy, because no one gets out alive.


Oh, I'm not giving up. I just know I give myself more of a chance if I produce more novels and so reducing the work load (world building and the such) should help increase my productivity. My aim was to write one novel over three years and then one novel a year from that point on. I don't enjoy just writing simply though, so, apart from all the world building, I had my own personal milestones to compete with. Now I'm cutting down on all those things that complicate the process in order to keep it simple. Not worrying too much about TPL, not world building, and writing what got me into writing in the first place, which was horror.


----------



## indianroads

KatPC said:


> I wrote my first draft novel and was advised to write short stories to improve my style and craft, it is the best advice I received. I have yet to return to my novel, more because I am working to 'write' better and knowing I need to do a full rewrite of the novel. What I do do is that my stories are all based around that world and for short stories simply write with the view of a character in your novel. You will find you will reconnect with the novel and then jump in.


I'm of two minds when it comes to advising would-be writers to start with short stories. YES. Story telling skills like dialogue and descriptions are developed, but that's kinda it. But if you want to run a marathon, you don't train by running wind-sprints.

It's true that ANY sort of writing improves writing skills. Writing a letter to your Aunt Mae helps develop a POV and a story. Writing a novel IS a marathon because it demands endurance more than anything else. Even beyond that though, a novel demands the disciplines of world building, character creation, and voice. Further, a novel requires a story arc whereas a short story... well, ok it has an arc, but only a little bitty one.

Beyond the writing, a novel demands an editing process and skills that are far greater than what a short story requires.

So yeah, ANY writing helps to build skills, but comparing a short story to a novel is like comparing a stroll to your mailbox to a hike across the country.


----------



## C.K.Johnson

indianroads said:


> I'm of two minds when it comes to advising would-be writers to start with short stories. YES. Story telling skills like dialogue and descriptions are developed, but that's kinda it. But if you want to run a marathon, you don't train by running wind-sprints.
> 
> It's true that ANY sort of writing improves writing skills. Writing a letter to your Aunt Mae helps develop a POV and a story. Writing a novel IS a marathon because it demands endurance more than anything else. Even beyond that though, a novel demands the disciplines of world building, character creation, and voice. Further, a novel requires a story arc whereas a short story... well, ok it has an arc, but only a little bitty one.
> 
> Beyond the writing, a novel demands an editing process and skills that are far greater than what a short story requires.
> 
> So yeah, ANY writing helps to build skills, but comparing a short story to a novel is like comparing a stroll to your mailbox to a hike across the country.


Exactly. When I whine to my husband about being stuck, he always suggests I write a short story instead. I have to tell him…that’s not how this works! It’s a different skill set, a different set of mind-muscles.


----------



## NajaNoir

I'm feeling pretty good about it actually, but one thing bugs me. I'm stuck in short story mode. I'm working on what I believe has turned into a children's story, though it wasn't meant to, it's just how it came to be. And, It's a short story, probably about 12-16 pages once completed, but I find myself starting to rush through, as if I need to keep it at the 650 word mark of what I'm now so used to. I don't understand how to pace myself, stretch things along, without boring people to tears.


----------



## KatPC

indianroads said:


> I'm of two minds when it comes to advising would-be writers to start with short stories. YES. Story telling skills like dialogue and descriptions are developed, but that's kinda it. But if you want to run a marathon, you don't train by running wind-sprints.
> 
> It's true that ANY sort of writing improves writing skills. Writing a letter to your Aunt Mae helps develop a POV and a story. Writing a novel IS a marathon because it demands endurance more than anything else. Even beyond that though, a novel demands the disciplines of world building, character creation, and voice. Further, a novel requires a story arc whereas a short story... well, ok it has an arc, but only a little bitty one.
> 
> Beyond the writing, a novel demands an editing process and skills that are far greater than what a short story requires.
> 
> So yeah, ANY writing helps to build skills, but comparing a short story to a novel is like comparing a stroll to your mailbox to a hike across the country.


I'm not sure, maybe this was tailored advice but I do feel writing short stories are very effective for 'new' and 'would-be' writers to learn about writing.

A few months before I joined the Forum I wrote my first draft novel - an 76k happy write. I began my second draft but quickly ran into problems (thinking all I needed were some help with my SPaG.) I had just written Firefly (the first short story I ever written) and a year and a half on ... I have made it to draft 7 (the one I sent you was draft six.) It has been an education to reach to draft seven but I know for a fact that had I posted chapters of my novel and let it take the hits, I could easily folded away. The LM challenges are only 650 words long, and getting feedback from that makes a story a lot easier to fix that story, with amendments to chapters in a novel, it will be dispiriting. 

I haven't returned to my novel because it is so poorly written that I know it doesn't need a ton of drafts, it needs a rewrite, so I advocate what I experience. Writing shorts are fun and learning from your errors is easier, they help build your skill set, but also (to me anyway) gives great clarity to tackle my novel. It took me two and half years writing the first draft novel (at the beginning I was messing around a lot as I had no idea about writing) but I envisage the next rewrite to be long.

I've been writing for a little over four years now, amassed over twenty short stories and a novel but I am a 'new' writer. I still feel every nerve and worry when posting in the comp or the workshop and absolutely stand with any member who battles with draining confidences. I totally agree that writing a short story is very different from a novel, the endurance, the strain of working on the same project demands great patience and discipline, but confidence in your own writing is equally as important than learning good prose. When you are new and bust out a story, the confidence can seem very strong, the reality is it is rather brittle. Amending a short story is so much easier and confidence can drain but you can learn with every 'bad.' If a new writer gets poor comments chapter upon chapter it is not confidence in yourself that you lose, but the story, with shorts, you write a bad one, bin it and move on ... it's a different mindset with a novel that endurance is not just discipline but also a confidence battle when you are just starting out.


----------



## roadscribe

Checking in. I'm editing my 95K novel, my first. Slow going so far. Mostly because I don't look back when writing my first drafts, so editing is like clearing a nuclear fallout. The good news is, I'm thrilled with the work. It's solid and not as bad as I thought (like we all do) when I was writing the first draft. I'm finding it's much darker than I originally thought too, which I'm okay with, as long as reps and publishers are too. We'll see I suppose. I start my second novel in two weeks so hoping to have my first edits wrapped up and sent off to a dev. editor and betas. Then some copy/line work and it's time to query!

Hope you are all well. Let's have a stellar 2023!


----------



## indianroads

KatPC said:


> I'm not sure, maybe this was tailored advice but I do feel writing short stories are very effective for 'new' and 'would-be' writers to learn about writing.
> 
> A few months before I joined the Forum I wrote my first draft novel - an 76k happy write. I began my second draft but quickly ran into problems (thinking all I needed were some help with my SPaG.) I had just written Firefly (the first short story I ever written) and a year and a half on ... I have made it to draft 7 (the one I sent you was draft six.) It has been an education to reach to draft seven but I know for a fact that had I posted chapters of my novel and let it take the hits, I could easily folded away. The LM challenges are only 650 words long, and getting feedback from that makes a story a lot easier to fix that story, with amendments to chapters in a novel, it will be dispiriting.
> 
> I haven't returned to my novel because it is so poorly written that I know it doesn't need a ton of drafts, it needs a rewrite, so I advocate what I experience. Writing shorts are fun and learning from your errors is easier, they help build your skill set, but also (to me anyway) gives great clarity to tackle my novel. It took me two and half years writing the first draft novel (at the beginning I was messing around a lot as I had no idea about writing) but I envisage the next rewrite to be long.
> 
> I've been writing for a little over four years now, amassed over twenty short stories and a novel but I am a 'new' writer. I still feel every nerve and worry when posting in the comp or the workshop and absolutely stand with any member who battles with draining confidences. I totally agree that writing a short story is very different from a novel, the endurance, the strain of working on the same project demands great patience and discipline, but confidence in your own writing is equally as important than learning good prose. When you are new and bust out a story, the confidence can seem very strong, the reality is it is rather brittle. Amending a short story is so much easier and confidence can drain but you can learn with every 'bad.' If a new writer gets poor comments chapter upon chapter it is not confidence in yourself that you lose, but the story, with shorts, you write a bad one, bin it and move on ... it's a different mindset with a novel that endurance is not just discipline but also a confidence battle when you are just starting out.


First and foremost, I wasn't signaling you out - it was general advice based on my experience, which is all any of us can offer. We're all different people that go about doing things and creating art in our unique way.

Ages ago (back in 80's) I tried my hand at writing novels - skipping the short story phase. Back then there was no viable self publishing option, so I shopped a couple of my books around and found an agent to represent me. Months went by with nothing happening, and I needed to put more focus on my engineering career, so I dropped my agents and followed my work... because... you know... money = good.

After I retired, I rode my motorcycle all over the place and started up a blog (just a series of short stories) about odd people, places, and things I had encountered on the road. I found the short story format restricting, and let it go for a while, then (I guess it was about 2017-18) I decided to write an autobiography about my weird life. Right around the time I finished it, I discovered the Amazon self publishing thing, and I've not looked back since.

How we learn is unique to each individual. For me, the best way to learn to write was to READ... A LOT. I picked up beats, arcs, characterizations, really everything I needed via scrutiny of what I read.

There's no once-size-fits-all to creating art. We strike out on our own and via trial and error find what works best for us. Sure, we give each other advice, but probably only 5-10% works its way into our repertoire. My best advice is to listen to every bit of advice, consider it, maybe even try it, but in the end we must take all those bits and pieces of wisdom and make them uniquely our own.


----------



## C.K.Johnson

Christmas cookies baked.
Christmas cards painted. 
Maybe tomorrow I’ll get some writing done.
Tonight it’s $5 drafts and garlic knots (for health reasons).


----------



## Parabola

I always enjoy writing characters with emotional attention spans so short, they can't stay "insane" for long periods. They go legitimately crazy for maybe like five minutes, then everything goes back to normal.

That's right, do the walk of shame.


----------



## KatPC

indianroads said:


> First and foremost, I wasn't signaling you out - it was general advice based on my experience, which is all any of us can offer.


Don't worry I never read it that way. It is one of the most fascinating things about writing - this journey is unique to all. Your reasons to write are different to the next, thus it is not really a debate about this way is right or that way is wrong but opening a door to show how you did things, what works for you may not work for me, I'm a panster you are a plotter and there is no right or wrong.

In one of your replies you wrote about reading (a lot) in essence to 'imitate' writers since people are great copiers and I 100% agree, I think this is what advice is. I write about what I've learnt (and am learning), and others the same, it is up to the individual to see what fits them best and they work out the best method forward. Like getting feedback on a story, I may not like it but I always appreciate as they offer a view that I may not have noticed. Even implementing advice may disturb the flow or alter the initial meaning, a lot (it seems) feels like trial and error but ... it's all for improving your story and in my eyes that's help and learning. If someone who gave their time to suggest I do this and it turned the story into a convoluted mess then it is still great practice to understand what works and what didn't.


----------



## Parabola

Sometimes I get inspired by some sensory experience (like video game/movie) more than when I read something. The reason could be I get absorbed in what I'm doing, and usually when I'm not consciously thinking of something, things snap into place.


----------



## Parabola

Haha, another misunderstood special snowflake making its way through a meat grinder. I guess winter can be "gibbed."


----------



## Explosia

Kinda feeling that heavy weight of being overwhelmed atm. While a beta reader has been going through my chapters (and I've been going through theirs in return), the biggest issues with my WIP have been uncovered, and it's frankly kind of daunting. The biggest one being my character voice problem. Which, I had suspected this would be a big problem, and it's frustrating because I absolutely can write in a character's voice. But despite having spent more than a year or two on this story, with these same characters, I still don't feel like I've hit the bullseye for them. There's something missing. A "hook" to their personalities to lead me.

But a bigger issue is some plot structure. Particularly having to do with that flashback chapter (another big issue I was predicting). Consensus is that it should be cut up and spread across the plot instead, but now that means rethinking plot points. Where do these memories go? It means stepping back from the project and looking at it in full, and that's when it gets overwhelming. How much longer does this dance have to keep going? How long is my next pass of editing going to take, especially if I have to replot here and there again? Every once in a while, I get hit with impatience. Wonder if I should work on my other backburner story for a while. But then I'll never really be taking the next step forward. I want to get to a point where I can start to query this piece, but it's not ready for that yet. I have too many rudimentary problems that are obvious in it. Everything just feels like it's going at such a crawl, though...

Might be that I'm feeling a bit of burn out... tbf, I have been beta reading for my beta reader in exchange, and reading their chapters and commenting on them has also been taking up my brainpower.

Writing is hard lmao.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

Explosia said:


> Kinda feeling that heavy weight of being overwhelmed atm. While a beta reader has been going through my chapters (and I've been going through theirs in return), the biggest issues with my WIP have been uncovered, and it's frankly kind of daunting. The biggest one being my character voice problem. Which, I had suspected this would be a big problem, and it's frustrating because I absolutely can write in a character's voice. But despite having spent more than a year or two on this story, with these same characters, I still don't feel like I've hit the bullseye for them. There's something missing. A "hook" to their personalities to lead me.
> 
> But a bigger issue is some plot structure. Particularly having to do with that flashback chapter (another big issue I was predicting). Consensus is that it should be cut up and spread across the plot instead, but now that means rethinking plot points. Where do these memories go? It means stepping back from the project and looking at it in full, and that's when it gets overwhelming. How much longer does this dance have to keep going? How long is my next pass of editing going to take, especially if I have to replot here and there again? Every once in a while, I get hit with impatience. Wonder if I should work on my other backburner story for a while. But then I'll never really be taking the next step forward. I want to get to a point where I can start to query this piece, but it's not ready for that yet. I have too many rudimentary problems that are obvious in it. Everything just feels like it's going at such a crawl, though...
> 
> Might be that I'm feeling a bit of burn out... tbf, I have been beta reading for my beta reader in exchange, and reading their chapters and commenting on them has also been taking up my brainpower.
> 
> Writing is hard lmao.



Keep at it, amigo. You’ve got this.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

Joker’s latest ‘Joker’s Zen’ posting about subjective and objective got me thinking about a character I introduce in Book V, called Flakey. Flakey’s a wanna-be Zen Buddhist type, and Joker’s post fits right into his weird mind-set.
Sounds almost like a backhanded compliment/borderline insult to Joker, which it’s not (it’s been my favorite of his posts on that thread) but I can see Flakey spouting off something like that, but a bit more uneducated BS and jibberish.


----------



## indianroads

Explosia said:


> Kinda feeling that heavy weight of being overwhelmed atm. While a beta reader has been going through my chapters (and I've been going through theirs in return), the biggest issues with my WIP have been uncovered, and it's frankly kind of daunting. The biggest one being my character voice problem. Which, I had suspected this would be a big problem, and it's frustrating because I absolutely can write in a character's voice. But despite having spent more than a year or two on this story, with these same characters, I still don't feel like I've hit the bullseye for them. There's something missing. A "hook" to their personalities to lead me.
> 
> But a bigger issue is some plot structure. Particularly having to do with that flashback chapter (another big issue I was predicting). Consensus is that it should be cut up and spread across the plot instead, but now that means rethinking plot points. Where do these memories go? It means stepping back from the project and looking at it in full, and that's when it gets overwhelming. How much longer does this dance have to keep going? How long is my next pass of editing going to take, especially if I have to replot here and there again? Every once in a while, I get hit with impatience. Wonder if I should work on my other backburner story for a while. But then I'll never really be taking the next step forward. I want to get to a point where I can start to query this piece, but it's not ready for that yet. I have too many rudimentary problems that are obvious in it. Everything just feels like it's going at such a crawl, though...
> 
> Might be that I'm feeling a bit of burn out... tbf, I have been beta reading for my beta reader in exchange, and reading their chapters and commenting on them has also been taking up my brainpower.
> 
> Writing is hard lmao.


Hang in there. Writing is tough work, but pressing and you’ll get through it.


----------



## Pamelyn Casto

@indianroads said: "I'm of two minds when it comes to advising would-be writers to start with short stories. YES. Story telling skills like dialogue and descriptions are developed, but that's kinda it. But if you want to run a marathon, you don't train by running wind-sprints."

*** I agree that it's as you said "It's true that ANY sort of writing improves writing skills."  But as you also point out, the genres are so different and one is not the same as the other. I sometimes get irritated when I see people advise others to write flash fiction if they can't write a full short story. They're not the same thing! Just as a short story isn't the same thing as a novel. Just as poetry isn't the same thing as flash fiction. 

Here's William Faulkner's rather different view: 
"I'm a failed poet. Maybe every novelist wants to write poetry first, finds he can't, and then tries the short story, which is the most demanding form after poetry. And, failing at that, only then does he take up novel writing."

I think all types of writing are challenges. Each one in a different way. One type can look like another type but from where I sit they're not the same thing.


----------



## Joker

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> Joker’s latest ‘Joker’s Zen’ posting about subjective and objective got me thinking about a character I introduce in Book V, called Flakey. Flakey’s a wanna-be Zen Buddhist type, and Joker’s post fits right into his weird mind-set.
> Sounds almost like a backhanded compliment/borderline insult to Joker, which it’s not (it’s been my favorite of his posts on that thread) but I can see Flakey spouting off something like that, but a bit more uneducated BS and jibberish.



Your head must feel very heavy, if you're carrying all that bullshit in it.


----------



## Parabola

Brain is buzzing with ideas tonight. As of yet, I'm not anchored to any project. I know when I reach that flow state, slipping into the world and characters. Not yet, but uh, soon...


----------



## indianroads

Yesterday, I finished the plots for all three novels of my dystopian/SciFi Maelstrom series. The first novel is set in a walled city crumbling under its bureaucratic weight. The second is set in the neolithic period, and the third, five years after the first novel.

I'm currently working on the first line of each novel. For cohesion, I want each line to be related to the time travel element in the series plot.
#1) The present builds upon the past to create the future.
#2) The past dreams of a future for the present to achieve.
#3) The future is built upon the present and the past.

So, I'm getting myself in the mood for starting out on my writing journey.


----------



## Parabola

Ethan has a strange relationship with his mildly antagonistic mentor, Joe. The death scene featuring him is going through my head now. The thing with that is he always needed someone to rebel against, and that had been Joe. Well, I guess he rebelled against a lot of people so maybe that's no great loss in his mind? It probably still will be since even though he's possibility focused, he easily grows attachment and prefers familiarity on some level. Deep down, he doesn't really like change: he just likes thinking about it.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

Upon further review, nuking the ten alarm barn fire from the picnic scene/chapter from 'God Bless.' Although it helps paint the scene of rural Kansas, it doesn't do anything to move the book or plot along. I might keep it in my back pocket and perhaps have _another_ barn fire later on in Nebraska. (Because a minor character gets drunk at a party he's hosting and decides to start a bonfire with a flaming arrow, over shoots said bonfire and hit and ignite his barn that contains several old cars and tractors.. as well as a coworker who's getting overly friendly with a woman other than the date he showed up to the party with.)

Up to this point, I've not revealed on Meghan's (MC3) unloyal actions off-scene that caused her to leave Chris (MC1), so the reader never learns why she did such an about face.  Chris' dad Brian learns after Chris' funeral, but even then his discussion with Jet (MC2) is vague and not forthcoming. But you can't blame the guy. He just buried his only child and found out he had an eight year old grandson on the same day, dig? And I thought about having Jet confront Meghan on the whole situation later on.
Anyways, the point here is that a reader suggested I somehow need to fill in the reader a little on this deet instead of waiting another ten or so books. I wasn't so keen on it, but now I'm starting to lean in that direction. But only just a taste/tease enough to satisfy reader curiosity until later on, and not hamper the current plot line...


----------



## indianroads

I'm currently in chapter three of Tempest, explaining how time travel works in my world. I did quite a bit of research, so how it's done is somewhat plausible... if you squint your eyes and look at it sideways.


----------



## Joker

indianroads said:


> I'm currently in chapter three of Tempest, explaining how time travel works in my world. I did quite a bit of research, so how it's done is somewhat plausible... if you squint your eyes and look at it sideways.



So that's why I had to fight a band of samurai to get to my car this morning...


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

_*WARNING TL;DR*_

Impatiently waiting until after Jan 2nd to start back into writing because I've got to commit 'puter time to finishing up this year's CDP on the 31st and starting next year's CDP on the first.  That being said, for some odd reason this week, a love scene... more like a near-miss love scene... that I've written in the skeleton draft of what is now Book IV _'Some Caffeine And A Hurricane'_ has been on my mind all week. 

It's Thursday, three days after Hurricane Andrew hit south Florida. Chris (MC1) had walked over the freeway to a 7-11 that managed to survive mostly intact, found it open despite not having power. After haggling with the store owner over the price for a few remaining bottles of warm Gatorade and a bag of chips, Chris walks back to the dorms. Just as Chris gets back to the dorms and is about to open the door to his room (the dorms is an old Holiday Inn leased by the college), the car of the girls next door, Amber and Sakura, pull in.

Pause for a moment for a little background from earlier in this rough and also from the rough of Book III _'Burgers, Sex, And Broadcasting' _
Chris and Sakura have a complex friendship. Chris, knowing that he's going to graduate in a few months and has been burned badly in a previous long distant relationship, is fighting with his feelings for Sakura. He's aware that Sakura is fond of him, and they've gone out and have done things as friends. Sakura doesn't speak a lot, and when she does, it's in very broken English and simple sentences. (The reader later learns that she's been afraid to tell Chris how she felt towards him in fear of saying the wrong things due to her self-admitted poor English skills.) However Chris can't figure out if Sakura is comfortable around him as a friend because he's never tried to make a romantic or sexual move towards her or if she has feelings towards him, too. And like Chris, Sakura was in a bad relationship that caused a riff between Sakura and Chris, and also led to Chris getting his butt kicked by Sakura's jealous and abusive boyfriend at the time (which also lends to Sakura's hesitation on telling Chris her feelings).

The dorms are located literally at the boundary of mandatory and nonmandatory evacuation zones, and Chris rode out the storm in his dorm room while Sakura and her roommate Amber went to a shelter.  Sakura had pleaded for Chris to go with them, but he declined.  As Chris is about to open the door, Sakura runs out of the car and nearly tackles him when she hugs him, relieved to see he survived. Later, Sakura comes over to Chris' room and is amused on the measures he took to secure his belongings as well as the bathtub full of water. Chris explains that the water is to flush the toilet and for washing and shows her how he takes a sponge bath (in this case more like a washcloth bath). (Power and water are still days from being restored to this section of Fort Lauderdale at this point. I guess you could say there's quasi-dystopia in my writing.)

Chris is caught off-guard when Sakura asks him to give her a sponge bath. A few times in the previous book, down at the pool, Sakura had asked Chris to put lotion on her back as she was lying out sunning. He reluctantly obliged her and made sure he didn't touch her inappropriately for fear of not knowing her feelings towards him as he fought with his desires towards her. Sakura undresses down to underwear and Chris gently washes her while again quietly fighting with his feelings. 

The situation/scene climaxes when Chris loses balance and finds himself catching himself when his hand lands on Sakura on a part of her body he didn't mean to touch. He immediately freaks the phrack out, fearing the Sakura would think he tried to grope her.  And in the rough/skeleton I've written and rewritten Sakura's reaction about four and a half billion times, and I still don't think I've got it right yet other than the fact that nothing physical comes between them. 

So as I'm sitting here with a cup of coffee and a piece of banana bread Wifey's boss made, I'm rereading it for the eleventeenth infinity time and wondering if I should change it up again as well as wonder why I'm looking over this book and not Book I, which I'm taking a hiatus until next month to work on editing again.

That's what's on my mind about my writing this morning. We'll take a commercial break and be back with a look at the weather right here on WOYM....

A.C.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

Joker said:


> So that's why I had to fight a band of samurai to get to my car this morning...



I see my assassins failed.....


----------



## Joker

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> I see my assassins failed.....



Off with their pinkies!


----------



## bazz cargo




----------



## Parabola

I like taking my time to create a world, even if it's modern day with some quirks/twists.


----------



## Theglasshouse

Going to read To live again and To Buy Time. Going to see what I can borrow as ideas because my concept of what I am writing changes drastically with the technology I am using to write the story (switching technologies to write the story makes it into a new story). Also, I admit I haven't been reading what I like to read. I detest Goodreads simply because it gives bad recommendations. But those two works won awards. The premise hooked me. I like to read a one-line premise sometimes. When I was reading movie premises, it gave me a new idea on how to execute a new idea. I am planning to read more books. But I finally found a website that gives good recommendations. A one-line premise is an easy technique to enable me to see the work as a summary of its idea. I hope it interests readers. It's only for writing one short story that I am reading these two works. But hopefully more are written.


----------



## Parabola

Worked extensively on some cultural elements of the fictional world. Already have a vague layout of the town in mind (various locations, some past/present variations and how they connect), now I'm interested in plugging away at some stuff that gives the "edges" a bit of color, like prominent geographical bits, what the surrounding towns might be like. Also, I can't leave that spooky wilderness entirely unpopulated.

On top of town "mythology" and history, came up with a couple of movies (referenced in passing) that are relevant to the vibe.


----------



## Phil Istine

my well has run dry
not a single drop in sight
download from torrent


----------



## Parabola

"You know you're going crazy when you catch yourself trying to browse the internet with a ham and cheese sandwich."


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

Parabola said:


> "You know you're going crazy when you catch yourself trying to browse the internet with a ham and cheese sandwich."



You say that like it's a bad thing, Bucko...


----------



## Parabola

Probably close to twenty pages of worldbuilding material at the moment. I actually started another section for bestiary etc, since this was initially supposed to be a video game. Now I'm just content ironing out all of the details of the "universe" so to speak before diving in.


----------



## cassiofthedollhouse

I've been having a bit of a crisis around my writing. I feel that my older pieces are MUCH better than my new ones. Usually when I've looked back at my old writing, I've felt proud of myself because it wasn't very good compared to my then-new writing. Feels like I've devolved quite a bit. But the good news is that I have some motivation to work on a project today. Just gotta get to it and not overthink lol.


----------



## Arsenex

cassiofthedollhouse said:


> I've been having a bit of a crisis around my writing. I feel that my older pieces are MUCH better than my new ones. Usually when I've looked back at my old writing, I've felt proud of myself because it wasn't very good compared to my then-new writing. Feels like I've devolved quite a bit. But the good news is that I have some motivation to work on a project today. Just gotta get to it and not overthink lol.


I'm of the partial mind that sometimes you know too much. Your original writings were written with your mind being free to create just as you had learned, you wrote things as you would naturally interpret them. Whereas now, you are probably trying to apply all the lessons learned and it no longer reads as natural to you. Just a thought.


----------



## PiP

Arsenex said:


> I'm of the partial mind that sometimes you know too much. Your original writings were written with your mind being free to create just as you had learned, you wrote things as you would naturally interpret them. Whereas now, you are probably trying to apply all the lessons learned and it no longer reads as natural to you. Just a thought.


I can relate to this. I'm in the process of editing a book I wrote for NaNo 2012 and my writing then flowed. Natural. I'm now tying myself up in knots trying to apply everything I've learned since. Maybe less is ACTUALLY more.


----------



## Parabola

Decisions, decisions.


----------



## Arsenex

PiP said:


> I can relate to this. I'm in the process of editing a book I wrote for NaNo 2012 and my writing then flowed. Natural. I'm now tying myself up in knots trying to apply everything I've learned since. Maybe less is ACTUALLY more.


I think until you are heavily practiced at writing with all the rules it won't seem natural. Doesn't mean the writing isn't good. Just to you it might still seem a little foreign.


----------



## Parabola

Since I wrote down several stories in the same universe that weren't put down in a sequence, I'm thinking of structuring them a bit like comic book omnibuses where they are "smaller" stories within the same book but they have interconnecting threads and the reader can tackle them sort of individually (even if there is an overarching story). That's the loose comparison I'm going with atm. Maybe that will give it a sense of structure and sequence I'm looking for yet maintain the open feel.

Even then, one "issue" can have memory splatter from some other story arc where relevant.


----------



## Aelyth

I'm currently making a map for my fantasy novel. Thankfully, since I decided for the setting to take place in a city, rather than in a kingdom or continent, I can narrow my focus and really flesh out this small world. I can't really draw, so I'm just going to map the city out in bullet points, and hope it makes sense to me later, lol.


----------



## indianroads

Aelyth said:


> I'm currently making a map for my fantasy novel. Thankfully, since I decided for the setting to take place in a city, rather than in a kingdom or continent, I can narrow my focus and really flesh out this small world. I can't really draw, so I'm just going to map the city out in bullet points, and hope it makes sense to me later, lol.


Have you thought of basing your fantasy city on a real one? A city is a city, it has buildings and borders along with a center of government. If that works for you, just pulling up a map on you PC might be easier than drawing one yourself.


----------



## Aelyth

indianroads said:


> Have you thought of basing your fantasy city on a real one? A city is a city, it has buildings and borders along with a center of government. If that works for you, just pulling up a map on you PC might be easier than drawing one yourself.


Oh, yes, I have! I have a good sense of how the city maps out, I just need to write down the locations, sites of interest, etc. I try not to take much from real cities, as I want my city to be its own thing, so I'm giving myself some leeway in how I map it out, lol! Thank you for the advice, though


----------



## Parabola

I'm getting some ideas for the start of MC1. Tinkering with the plot etc.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

What's on my mind about my writing?  Sure, I'll tell you.

Is it _within *a* hour_

Or is it _within *an* hour_

The knuckle-dragging rider of _*9000lbs of silent bright orange death*_ wants to know.


----------



## indianroads

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> What's on my mind about my writing?  Sure, I'll tell you.
> 
> Is it _within *a* hour_
> 
> Or is it _within *an* hour_
> 
> The knuckle-dragging rider of _*9000lbs of silent bright orange death*_ wants to know.


“An” I think… it’s that phonic going on.


----------



## Islander

I just wrote a fan fiction. I took it very seriously, and spent a lot of work on character development and story. At the end, I was very happy with how I managed to express everything I wanted to express with it.

Then when I looked it over, it was only 4 100 words, and took five minutes to read. And reading it through quickly, even I don't notice the nuances.

Now I'm wondering if I wrote it too compressed, and if anyone will appreciate everything I put into it.


----------



## KatPC

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> What's on my mind about my writing?  Sure, I'll tell you.
> 
> Is it _within *a* hour_
> 
> Or is it _within *an* hour_
> 
> The knuckle-dragging rider of _*9000lbs of silent bright orange death*_ wants to know.


It's *'an'* buddy ... the oddities of English.


----------



## KatPC

Islander said:


> I just wrote a fan fiction. I took it very seriously, and spent a lot of work on character development and story. At the end, I was very happy with how I managed to express everything I wanted to express with it.
> 
> Then when I looked it over, it was only 4 100 words, and took five minutes to read. And reading it through quickly, even I don't notice the nuances.
> 
> Now I'm wondering if I wrote it too compressed, and if anyone will appreciate everything I put into it.


You will never know until you post it out! Good writing is always appreciated regardless of length.


----------



## indianroads

In my current pleasure read I'm coming across a lot of instances of:
He nodded his head.
He shrugged his shoulders.

That kind of thing makes me crazy. What else is he going to nod... his feet? Maybe he's shrug his eyebrows?


----------



## JBF

indianroads said:


> What else is he going to nod... his feet? Maybe he's shrug his eyebrows?



I've seen it.  It's terrifying.  Straight nightmare material.


----------



## indianroads

JBF said:


> I've seen it.  It's terrifying.  Straight nightmare material.


And yet, this book is an Amazon best seller (not sure if it's trade or self published though).


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

The Meth Heads have been evicted. Cleaners were in the house today. I walked into the living room and kitchen area and snapped more pictures for documentation. It's been a five year battle.

I walk out of the house, and my neighbor who lives in the house next to it was standing outside along his fence row. He's not aware I'm writing a book right now. He looks at me and says, "You could write a book about them, Aaron."

The question would be about a single book, or another (much shorter) series.  
Oh, my.


A.C.


----------



## indianroads

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> The Meth Heads have been evicted. Cleaners were in the house today. I walked into the living room and kitchen area and snapped more pictures for documentation. It's been a five year battle.
> 
> I walk out of the house, and my neighbor who lives in the house next to it was standing outside along his fence row. He's not aware I'm writing a book right now. He looks at me and says, "You could write a book about them, Aaron."
> 
> The question would be about a single book, or another (much shorter) series.
> Oh, my.
> 
> 
> A.C.


Goes to show you that inspiration is everywhere.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

indianroads said:


> Goes to show you that inspiration is everywhere.



I actually kicked around the idea of adding this situation into the second half of the book series when I started on the skeletons. I thought it would make an interesting story arc after MC2 (Jet) and MC3 (Meghan) move in together and become engaged. Because let's face it, other than the bizarre events at work (and the occasional coworker either getting fired, thrown in jail for murder or serial sexual assault, or dying) , there's nothing else overly dramatic going on in the series.

And besides, it's a great plot.

Supervisor from work, "A" meets a woman who's twenty years younger than him "B" with two teenage kids "C" and "D" from two different fathers "E" and "F."  "A", "B", "C", and "D" all live happily together in their little house on a dead end street in the far corner of the city.  Married coworkers "G" and "H" just happen to buy the house across the street. The six of them get along and occasionally have backyard cookouts together.
Everything is nice and peaceful until "B" manages to convince "A" to let her unemployable ex husband "E" and his fiance "I" move into the basement of their home because he's got warrants but he's working under the table to try to get her back child support money for "C."
"A" cashes in most of his personal favors at work to get strings pulled to get "H" and "I" jobs where him and "G" and "H" work. Everything seems to be going alright despite the weird and awkward living arrangements. Then, the next summer, "A" decides out of the blue to retire and move him, "B", "C", and "D" to the middle of Tennessee. He gives "H" the house on land contract for the remaining amount owed on the mortgage.
And off they go....
Everything seems fine for the rest of the year.
February, "G" and "H" go on a two week vacation to the Grand Canyon. When they return, they're shocked to discover three car loads of people (actually two car loads and a U-Haul van) living in front of their house. "G" chases them off by threatening to call the cops. "E" gets belligerent at "G" because he told those people they could stay there. Also, "E" bought a camper and there is a drug dealer living and pushing drugs from inside it.
"G" calls "A" to complain, but "E" denies everything. "E" and "I" eventually quit their jobs that "A" worked so hard to get them so that they can live off welfare and government assistance. "E" also stops paying "A" for the house.
For the next four years, "E" and "I" turn the house into a squatter's den for his buddies, most of them either involved in drugs or fencing stolen goods or hiding out with outstanding warrants. There are people coming in and out of the basement at all hours of the day and night. Numerous times, police raid the place looking for fugitives.
"G" and "H" and the rest of the neighbors are blowing up City Hall and local law enforcement with documentation of ordinance violations and other things going on at the place. Finally after four and half years, the bank takes possession. Six months later, the city and power are shut off to the dwelling, but "E" rigs the house to his pickup truck to act as a generator. Finally, a few months later, the city condemns the house, and a month after that, the bank gives them a 60 day eviction notice.

That's the jist in a nutshell. The deets would surprise a lot of people.

OH!  I forgot to add.

While in Tennessee, "B" blows through "A"'s retirement, then has an affair with a guy she meets at her job... AND his twin brother. "A" divorces "B", but her kids "C" and "D" decided to stick with "A" and live with him.  "A" is broke, and finds a job, but loses his house in Tennessee, too, and lives in an apartment.


----------



## JBF

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> The Meth Heads have been evicted.


_
/badass guitar riff_


----------



## Joker

JBF said:


> _/badass guitar riff_


----------



## JBF

Joker said:


>



A lot.  

Some of it due to dealing with meth heads.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

PLOT IDEA
ESTABLISHED 
MC 1, Chris (he’s not dead yet), goes by the name Christopher Scott on the air at KLCN in Lincoln. He’s got a job interview at a station in Grand Island, an hour away. He’s looking for a full time gig, but is offered a part time Sunday slot. He rejects it, unaware that the station GM intends to put him full time the first time a spot comes open. 
Chris runs into the GM’s daughter (who’s the secretary at the station and he struck up a brief conversation with while he waits in the lobby) at a party. While chatting, he learns of the GM’s intent to make him a full time jock after the fact. Several months too late.

PLOT IDEA/PONDERING
On the way back home (Lincoln) from somewhere in the western part of the state (pan handle area?), Chris tunes into the station in Grand Island that he interviewed at, and hears a DJ called Scott Christopher that has similar on-air mannerisms and delivery as Chris has.


----------



## JBF

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> PLOT IDEA/PONDERING
> On the way back home (Lincoln) from somewhere in the western part of the state (pan handle area?), Chris tunes into the station in Grand Island that he interviewed at, and hears a DJ called Scott Christopher that has similar on-air mannerisms and delivery as Chris has.



The Mid-West be weird like that, yo.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

JBF said:


> The Mid-West be weird like that, yo.


Don’t need to tell me, I live in it…


----------



## JBF

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> Don’t need to tell me, I live in it…



I did, sort of, for a little while.  

And that place was too weird for a talking raccoon.


----------



## KatPC

Always a little nervous at posting stories up, for some reason it is a different sort of 'fear' compared a year ago. Not really sure why, but if I am ever to improve I need to make that step up and certainly be more braver in showcasing my stories. First new story up ... the next one is one I like ... hopefully get that up in a week or two.


----------



## Joker

JBF said:


> I did, sort of, for a little while.
> 
> And that place was too weird for a talking raccoon.



That's cute. Try Florida.


----------



## Parabola

Finally watched the ending of Half-Life: Alyx. Before that, decided to watch a deep analysis video of the franchise's overall story and theories. Marc Laidlaw is quite clever with his worldbuilding, and someone put it well that it feels like all the answers are "just behind a wall." One of the things I enjoyed most about the game was the G-Man, the sense of mystery surrounding him etc.

Maybe it was the science fiction aspect that got me thinking of MC 1 or the trilogy I'd planned in general (book 3 is currently in stasis). Actually, there was a fourth book that dealt with time travel stuff or "alternate" scenario for book 1, though that's also unfinished. Time travel wasn't the point so much as a side-effect of the overall plot/character development.

Not sure where this thought process is taking me, just getting interested in the trilogy again, specifically book 1.


----------



## indianroads

Joker said:


> That's cute. Try Florida.


Small towns are all… let’s say unique. Richard Allen Davis came out of mine. He’s currently on death row in San Quentin.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

indianroads said:


> Small towns are all… let’s say unique. Richard Allen Davis came out of mine. He’s currently on death row in San Quentin.



Growing up in my small town, I had a neighbor down the road that was discovered and deported for being a convicted Nazi war criminal. Concentration camp guard from Romania. Talk about a "DUDE!" moment. Then, for a bit, I lived out in the village near my current workplace. Ted Nugent was a regular sight. I have two really cool Ted stories.


----------



## indianroads

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> Growing up in my small town, I had a neighbor down the road that was discovered and deported for being a convicted Nazi war criminal. Concentration camp guard from Romania. Talk about a "DUDE!" moment. Then, for a bit, I lived out in the village near my current workplace. Ted Nugent was a regular sight. I have two really cool Ted stories.


We had Bob Dylan, Ken Kesey, and Joan Baez living near by. Janis Joplin dropped by our house more than once.
I went to more Grateful Dead concerts than I cared to.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

indianroads said:


> We had Bob Dylan, Ken Kesey, and Joan Baez living near by. Janis Joplin dropped by our house more than once.
> I went to more Grateful Dead concerts than I cared to.



I remember our conversations about that. I now have on my bucket list to hopefully sit down with you someday over a meal and a cold beverage and swap stories.


----------



## indianroads

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> I remember our conversations about that. I now have on my bucket list to hopefully sit down with you someday over a meal and a cold beverage and swap stories.


Sounds like fun.
I wonder if we could pull together a regional WF get together?


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

indianroads said:


> Sounds like fun.
> I wonder if we could pull together a regional WF get together?



*Silly confessional time.*

I got this hairbrained idea a few weeks before Pip approached me about being a moderator. First I've breathed a word of this to anyone. There are numerous indie/unsigned music showcases and conventions that take place yearly. I attended a couple of them. NeMo out in Boston (which back in the early aughties was QUITE a huge event. I met Noel Redding!!!!!!!), and Folk Alliance which was held in Cleveland in '99. It's an amazing way for musicians to network, do small performances, reunite with people they've met, and meet new people.

On a kinda-sorta-maybe similar note, back in the late 90's, Yahoo used to have state-based chat rooms. The people who hung out in the Michigan room would, once a month, host a 'chat party' in some city here in Michigan where people who from the chat room could meet up IRL. It's actually how I met my wife. No joke.

The reason I mention those two is because one night as I was driving around at work, I entertained the thought of what a yearly WF convention might be like. Imagine members of this community, regardless of participation level, writing skills, location, etc, got together for a long weekend of face-to-face networking, socializing, and shop-talk. Booths, panel discussions, poetry readings, stuff like that. Like FA, it could move from city to city every year. One year it could be New York or Memphis. The next Phoenix or Chicago or Portland. Maybe since this community is world-wide, perhaps a second European/UK-based event since not everyone's in a position to cross the pond either way.  A show in London or Glasgow. The next Dublin or Manchester. Etc.
Obviously the financial costs, organization effort, volunteers, and logistics would be massive.  It'll never happen, of course, but it's certainly nice to dreamfn to think about.  Made the night go by fast.


A.C.


----------



## indianroads

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> *Silly confessional time.*
> 
> I got this hairbrained idea a few weeks before Pip approached me about being a moderator. First I've breathed a word of this to anyone. There are numerous indie/unsigned music showcases and conventions that take place yearly. I attended a couple of them. NeMo out in Boston (which back in the early aughties was QUITE a huge event. I met Noel Redding!!!!!!!), and Folk Alliance which was held in Cleveland in '99. It's an amazing way for musicians to network, do small performances, reunite with people they've met, and meet new people.
> 
> On a kinda-sorta-maybe similar note, back in the late 90's, Yahoo used to have state-based chat rooms. The people who hung out in the Michigan room would, once a month, host a 'chat party' in some city here in Michigan where people who from the chat room could meet up IRL. It's actually how I met my wife. No joke.
> 
> The reason I mention those two is because one night as I was driving around at work, I entertained the thought of what a yearly WF convention might be like. Imagine members of this community, regardless of participation level, writing skills, location, etc, got together for a long weekend of face-to-face networking, socializing, and shop-talk. Booths, panel discussions, poetry readings, stuff like that. Like FA, it could move from city to city every year. One year it could be New York or Memphis. The next Phoenix or Chicago or Portland. Maybe since this community is world-wide, perhaps a second European/UK-based event since not everyone's in a position to cross the pond either way.  A show in London or Glasgow. The next Dublin or Manchester. Etc.
> Obviously the financial costs, organization effort, volunteers, and logistics would be massive.  It'll never happen, of course, but it's certainly nice to dreamfn to think about.  Made the night go by fast.
> 
> 
> A.C.


That WOULD be a blast, but I agree with you about the difficulty involved - herding writers - artistic types in general - is far more difficult than herding cats.


----------



## JBF

Joker said:


> That's cute. Try Florida.



I almost moved to Florida a few years back.   I liked what I saw of it, but the job wouldn't have covered rent.


----------



## JBF

indianroads said:


> That WOULD be a blast, but I agree with you about the difficulty involved - herding writers - artistic types in general - is far more difficult than herding cats.



There might be blood.


----------



## indianroads

JBF said:


> There might be blood.


as there often is when herding cats.


----------



## JBF

For being such a fairly straightforward concept, I think I've finally nailed down one of the more elusive aspects of the Halloween project from hell.  Chiefly, why it's taking so long and doesn't seem to follow the plotting I'd laid out.  

Apparently it's not about what I thought.


----------



## KatPC

You boys are funny.


----------



## JBF

KatPC said:


> You boys are funny.


…in a lot of funny ways.


----------



## indianroads

As George famously said : "Ever-body funny, now you funny too."


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

indianroads said:


> As George famously said : "Ever-body funny, now you funny too."



Dang-Nabbit, IR. You beat me to it.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

Four test readers left to discuss my book over that are coworkers. 

One got fired for sexual harassment. The other quit... and she was the target of the sexual harassment from the one who got fired. 

No other comment on the matter except I suppose I'm probably not going to get a chance to yak with either one over their thoughts on what I wrote.


----------



## JBF

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> No other comment on the matter except I suppose I'm probably not going to get a chance to yak with either one over their thoughts on what I wrote.



Beta reader deathmatch?


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

JBF said:


> Beta reader deathmatch?



My money would be on the italian guy in the kilt.
Yeah, no, don't ask...


----------



## JBF

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> My money would be on the italian guy in the kilt.
> Yeah, no, don't ask...



Diversity achieved.


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

JBF said:


> Diversity achieved.



After seeing pics on his FB page of him in a lot of different kilts, I was half tempted to make up a minor character for the series of either a hispanic or an asian-american character that wears kilts.  But Samuel L. Jackson did it in _*Formula 51*_ so much better than anything I could've thought of, so I scrapped the concept.


----------



## Angry Scotsman

Wow, so much to take in. I've been searching for answers, when I don't know exactly what the right questions are. 
Punctuation, sentence structure, word count, ect.

Do I hand write, or use a computer?
My computer died two day's ago, I can't afford a new or even a used one. I've always used my cellphone as my PC, but can I write a book with it? I have been told that google doc's would work, but some have suggested that it's not reliable. Is there an app for that?

My limited education may have retarded my understanding, but not my drive. By limited I mean that I did not graduate high-school, in fact I failed english, 37% to be exact. But the fact that I left school is irrelevant, I chose to evolve to grow. That being said, my literary experience did not evolve, nor did it grow. I only began writing two years ago, and only as a joke. But the reactions I received from my writing, wasn't a joke. So I dicided to write a memoir, a stretch from the many shorts stories I've done. I do believe that this is the next step for me. My ignorance regarding not understanding the lingo often used by the writing masses, how do I learn? The answers I sure are right here, but where do I start. 
Thank-you all in advance...


----------



## That Guy Named Aaron

Angry Scotsman said:


> Wow, so much to take in. I've been searching for answers, when I don't know exactly what the right questions are.
> Punctuation, sentence structure, word count, ect.


<smiles and waves> Yep, right here. Same boat.




Angry Scotsman said:


> Do I hand write, or use a computer?
> My computer died two day's ago, I can't afford a new or even a used one. I've always used my cellphone as my PC, but can I write a book with it? I have been told that google doc's would work, but some have suggested that it's not reliable. Is there an app for that?


If you have an iPhone, I recommend iPages. I used it to write my roughs/skeletons. Google Document can be janky on an iPhone, but I use it, too. 




Angry Scotsman said:


> My limited education may have retarded my understanding, but not my drive.


I refer to myself on here as a knuckle-dragger and neanderthal with my writing skills... or lack thereof. (I'm sure everyone here's got moe colorful names for me after reading my writing.) Not everyone on here is a polished writer. But everyone on here can help you become a polished writer.



Angry Scotsman said:


> By limited I mean that I did not graduate high-school, in fact I failed english, 37% to be exact. But the fact that I left school is irrelevant, I chose to evolve to grow. That being said, my literary experience did not evolve, nor did it grow. I only began writing two years ago, and only as a joke. But the reactions I received from my writing, wasn't a joke. So I dicided to write a memoir, a stretch from the many shorts stories I've done. I do believe that this is the next step for me. My ignorance regarding not understanding the lingo often used by the writing masses, how do I learn? The answers I sure are right here, but where do I start.



Start by asking. *And don't be afraid to ask.* If you're honest about learning and growing, you'll receive honest and respectful help. The mentors and experienced members here will point you in directions you need to go. Some might sugar coat, some might be a bit more blunt and thicker skin may or maynot be required. But all of it is designed to help you succeed. 

Look through the different boards and discussions on the forums. There are a LOT of helpful discussions. 



Angry Scotsman said:


> Thank-you all in advance...



A.C.


----------



## Emile Perez

My ADHD is getting in the way of my writing. I want to start all over with my current novel and even my side idea/project keeps shifting what it's about. No clue what to do now lol.


----------



## Angry Scotsman

Emile Perez said:


> My ADHD is getting in the way of my writing. I want to start all over with my current novel and even my side idea/project keeps shifting what it's about. No clue what to do now lol.


I'd  like to hear more, writing and side project.
I'm a guy with many projects on the go.
Helmet, writing, making a walking stick, and an exoskeletal armour...


----------



## nomdesab

I'm learning that the best writing style for me is to stick with some basic fundamentals. That means knowing what my premise, theme and main character flaw is. It's amazing how much my scattered mind is learning to fall back on these three basic fundamentals and keep me moving forward towards starting and finishing a long form. So necessary because my brain? Hi it's me, I'm the problem it's me.


----------



## Angry Scotsman

That Guy Named Aaron said:


> <smiles and waves> Yep, right here. Same boat.
> 
> 
> 
> If you have an iPhone, I recommend iPages. I used it to write my roughs/skeletons. Google Document can be janky on an iPhone, but I use it, too.
> 
> 
> 
> I refer to myself on here as a knuckle-dragger and neanderthal with my writing skills... or lack thereof. (I'm sure everyone here's got moe colorful names for me after reading my writing.) Not everyone on here is a polished writer. But everyone on here can help you become a polished writer.
> 
> 
> 
> Start by asking. *And don't be afraid to ask.* If you're honest about learning and growing, you'll receive honest and respectful help. The mentors and experienced members here will point you in directions you need to go. Some might sugar coat, some might be a bit more blunt and thicker skin may or maynot be required. But all of it is designed to help you succeed.
> 
> Look through the different boards and discussions on the forums. There are a LOT of helpful discussions.
> 
> 
> 
> A.C.


I have a Samsung galaxy 10s


----------



## Parabola

Emile Perez said:


> My ADHD is getting in the way of my writing. I want to start all over with my current novel and even my side idea/project keeps shifting what it's about. No clue what to do now lol.



Yeah. The mental equivalent of _shifting sands_. _(_fist bump)


----------



## Emile Perez

Angry Scotsman said:


> I'd  like to hear more, writing and side project.
> I'm a guy with many projects on the go.
> Helmet, writing, making a walking stick, and an exoskeletal armour...


My main project I'm working on is about a "monster hunter" dealing with the death of his parents, trying to become the best "monster hunter" he can be. But his personality has changed once (before writing it's current version), the end "beast" has changed a few times as I can't decide on what he should be facing. I also want an underlying theme/subplot about being multicultural/biracial.

My side project originally was about a multiversal hub that was really hell (and may still well be) but has shifted from "People trying to escape the multiversal hub that is hell" to "Demons who know they're in hell and remember when they used to be human are fighting a rebellion against the rest of hell".

I also keep having a third idea of writing a novel about superheroes. I like telling dark/grungy/emotionally heavy stories (always have). The superhero story idea has changed a few times too; originally I had the idea of there only being one SUPER in the world (a speedster) and having the MC kill (or try to kill) him; as the speedster is evil. My other thought is that it's 1920s and most SUPERs have abused their powers and become mobsters and criminals and the MC IS a speedster who is trying to stop the crime going on in his city.

And my brain keeps bouncing between all three ideas at random.


----------



## Angry Scotsman

Emile Perez said:


> My main project I'm working on is about a "monster hunter" dealing with the death of his parents, trying to become the best "monster hunter" he can be. But his personality has changed once (before writing it's current version), the end "beast" has changed a few times as I can't decide on what he should be facing. I also want an underlying theme/subplot about being multicultural/biracial.
> 
> My side project originally was about a multiversal hub that was really hell (and may still well be) but has shifted from "People trying to escape the multiversal hub that is hell" to "Demons who know they're in hell and remember when they used to be human are fighting a rebellion against the rest of hell".
> 
> I also keep having a third idea of writing a novel about superheroes. I like telling dark/grungy/emotionally heavy stories (always have). The superhero story idea has changed a few times too; originally I had the idea of there only being one SUPER in the world (a speedster) and having the MC kill (or try to kill) him; as the speedster is evil. My other thought is that it's 1920s and most SUPERs have abused their powers and become mobsters and criminals and the MC IS a speedster who is trying to stop the crime going on in his city.
> 
> And my brain keeps bouncing between all three ideas at random.


The first monster hunter, is he in fact the beast, and just don't know it. Sounds like my real life story. Could he or she be attracted to a different race, although raised in a different belief. The battle is within as he realizes that his hatred is not directed at other's, rather it is at himself. Losing his parents only revealed his forbidden passions.

The second one sounds really cool.
I could add anything to what you've already done.

The hero, anti hero is right up my alley.
The darker the better, I say. Life is never easy, the struggles are overwhelming. Tony Stark, incredibly flawed, made the most of a dire situation. The part B of the Sup's based in the 20's is not far off from the BOY'S


----------



## Emile Perez

Angry Scotsman said:


> The first monster hunter, is he in fact the beast, and just don't know it. Sounds like my real life story. Could he or she be attracted to a different race, although raised in a different belief. The battle is within as he realizes that his hatred is not directed at other's, rather it is at himself. Losing his parents only revealed his forbidden passions.
> 
> The second one sounds really cool.
> I could add anything to what you've already done.
> 
> The hero, anti hero is right up my alley.
> The darker the better, I say. Life is never easy, the struggles are overwhelming. Tony Stark, incredibly flawed, made the most of a dire situation. The part B of the Sup's based in the 20's is not far off from the BOY'S


For my monster hunter novel he's basically become a sort of monster due to trauma, pushes people away, hurts those he cares about, and is a monster hunter because he doesn't want to feel the pain of losing anyone ever again (despite also putting people at arms length to do that same thing). The multicultural aspect comes from my own perspective of life as I am hispanic (mixed) but my parents and I are "white-washed" so I don't know much spanish or much of the culture; the MC also is struggling with this as he is half "Pythen" (a spartan-esk "race" of people who put strength, courage, discipline, and obedience above all) and half "Kasdian" (a "race" that is more capitalistic and focuses on how far a piece of gold can go). I am also toying with the idea of having his "dead" mother be the ending monster. With the idea that somehow she survived and is now leading a cult of monster worshipping people who are now starting a war against the whole of Iirath.


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## Angry Scotsman

Emile Perez said:


> For my monster hunter novel he's basically become a sort of monster due to trauma, pushes people away, hurts those he cares about, and is a monster hunter because he doesn't want to feel the pain of losing anyone ever again (despite also putting people at arms length to do that same thing). The multicultural aspect comes from my own perspective of life as I am hispanic (mixed) but my parents and I are "white-washed" so I don't know much spanish or much of the culture; the MC also is struggling with this as he is half "Pythen" (a spartan-esk "race" of people who put strength, courage, discipline, and obedience above all) and half "Kasdian" (a "race" that is more capitalistic and focuses on how far a piece of gold can go). I am also toying with the idea of having his "dead" mother be the ending monster. With the idea that somehow she survived and is now leading a cult of monster worshipping people who are now starting a war against the whole of Iirath.


Very nice...


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## Allan Russell Author

Angry Scotsman said:


> Wow, so much to take in. I've been searching for answers, when I don't know exactly what the right questions are.
> Punctuation, sentence structure, word count, ect.
> 
> Do I hand write, or use a computer?
> My computer died two day's ago, I can't afford a new or even a used one. I've always used my cellphone as my PC, but can I write a book with it? I have been told that google doc's would work, but some have suggested that it's not reliable. Is there an app for that?
> 
> My limited education may have retarded my understanding, but not my drive. By limited I mean that I did not graduate high-school, in fact I failed english, 37% to be exact. But the fact that I left school is irrelevant, I chose to evolve to grow. That being said, my literary experience did not evolve, nor did it grow. I only began writing two years ago, and only as a joke. But the reactions I received from my writing, wasn't a joke. So I dicided to write a memoir, a stretch from the many shorts stories I've done. I do believe that this is the next step for me. My ignorance regarding not understanding the lingo often used by the writing masses, how do I learn? The answers I sure are right here, but where do I start.
> Thank-you all in advance...





Angry Scotsman said:


> I have a Samsung galaxy 10s


For Using on a mobile phone you can get Microsoft Word for free in the Play Store, (you just have to sign up for a Microsoft account).  They only make you pay if you use it on a screen bigger than 10 inches (if I remember rightly)


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## Allan Russell Author

I can only write on a computer, writing by hand is just too hard if you want to edit as you go like I do


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## Allan Russell Author

For Using on a mobile phone you can get Microsoft Word for free in the Google Play Store, (you just have to sign up for a Microsoft account).  They only make you pay if you use it on a screen bigger than 10 inches (if I remember rightly).


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## indianroads

Old people like me shouldn’t be allowed to use cell phones.
Mine sometimes buzzes or makes do-do-do noises and I can’t figure out what’s going on.


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## Parabola

So, while Ethan is in this purgatory space, he has dreams of a specific environment I always wanted to write about. His character is a bit in flux, but he'll interact with the dreams in between real-world whatevers, and he eventually slips into them fully. I guess this is meant to bridge the gap between MC3/4? The slowly "slipping into another reality" would be that bridge. No hurry though since Ethan is coming to some answers as he interacts with Joe/Eugene/Caleb and others from the main sequence of events.

I'm also structuring this in terms of entries. Not necessary really but again this is meant as a fun project to flex the vibe of the series without worrying about much. Writing it in manageable chunks helps with the fun factor. Beyond that, guess this took on more of a plot than intended though. Loosely, it's meant to explain how Ethan's perspective shifts from MC3 to book 4. Don't want to lean too much into structure since that isn't the point of this little project.

I get to experiment with old characters and see where they go.


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