# In need of an antagonist



## Max22 (Feb 23, 2013)

The premise of my current WIP is this: in the present day, 95% of the world’s population vanish in one second. A group of survivors ban together and travel with the main character from the east coast to the west coast to reunite with his mother whom he knows has not disappeared.

He knows she has not disappeared because she called him seconds after the vanishing. They are unable to maintain contact throughout the story because power grids shut down making phone calls impossible. His young daughter has survived, and he sees this as the opportunity to be a better father as he has been neglectful towards her in her short ten years. He also has unresolved conflict with his brother which will be explored.

There are also other characters that have good back stories that make up their group. My main problem is – what will happen! It’s a post-apocalyptic setting, however, since there are very few people around – their interaction with others is slim. I do introduce characters they meet along the way and while some are slightly hostile, there is little to maintain the longevity of the story. One thing does happen – the daughter gets taken by a mother whose children have vanished. The MC manages to get the daughter back eventually and this experience changes him. But after that, I feel not a lot happens.

Essentially, I’m trying to introduce an antagonist. My ideas are – they encounter a group of survivors who seem to know a lot about the vanishing, it is hinted that this group did vanish and have returned. Another idea is aliens, so the group have something to run/hide from and more pressure to reach the MC’s mother. Or they join a community of survivors where everything seems safe; however, this community refuse to let them leave. 

Ultimately, I just feel as though my story is mainly people talking with little action. They want to get to the MC’s mother ASAP but the story lacks urgency since they can simply drive across the country to get there. 

Which of my ideas do you like and dislike and if you have any ideas for an antagonist please do post them! All ideas will be much appreciated! 

Finally, I posted about this story in August and just wanted to say thanks to the people who helped me back then and hello if you’re reading this!


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## Robdemanc (Feb 23, 2013)

This reminds me of the YA book called "Gone".  Have you read it?


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## C.M. Aaron (Feb 23, 2013)

What caused the vanishing? Who did it and more importantly, what was their motive? Is this person still out to get everyone who did not vanish? Could this person be the source of the various obstacles your protagonist confronts on his journey?

A protagonist on a journey, who must overcome various obstacles on that journey, can be a good story. Not every antagonist must be a person. Your protagonist can be in conflict with nature for example. You are right to be concerned about too much philosophy in your story and not enough action.

Must the conflict in a story be unified? Or can it be a series of random events that share only one thing in common - they all contribute to the growth of your protagonist? Anyone else have an opinion on this last idea?

C.M.


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## seigfried007 (Feb 23, 2013)

Read and.or watch The Road by Cormac McArthy. No real antagonist, but there are lots of sub-arcs with their own antagonists (or not). 

Same goes for Walking Dead (which you can watch or read). Even has protagonists that you want to kill. Protagonists that become antagonists. Protagonists that become antagonists. Big ethical and moral dilemmas. I think walking Dead could really help within regards to giving the characters distinct roles and appeals. Lots of alternate spotlight time and role reversal. Good series 

This to say that The Road and Walking Dead are VERY different. Walking Dead has an obvious cause (people are becoming zombies). The Road had no defining reason the world collapsed. The whys didn't matter because the point was the relationship between a man and his son. it takes a very specific and awesome author to pull off that lack of answers without the reader feeling cheated. The questions never mattered for The Road. It's all about characters and how people coped with the fall of human civilization (lots of cannibalism, bands of sick people, the victimization of everyone). Very bleak picture for humanity as a whole, but at the end, there is substantially more light in characters that refuse to look at the world that way (and don't die for it). 

Why not take away the car? Your job as the author is to make your characters miserable. There will be other people on the roads (and lots of stalled vehicles blocking their way, and probably lots of people trying to steal their car or its gasoline).


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## Jeko (Feb 23, 2013)

Play Fallout 3, if you haven't already.

In a story, you shouldn't try to put an antagonist in just so it fits the 'antagonist' shaped hole. Shape your story so antagonists appear naturally. 

A good antagonist works against the protagonist but with the plot. Develop them out of an issue, or a conflict that would exist in your world.

I cannot offer any actual ideas, because ideas are both personal and cheap.

This does remind me of 'Gone'.


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## Hemlock (Feb 23, 2013)

You have a great setup, my friend!

For the meantime, focus on the conflict.
Is the cause of the vanishing natural or supernatural?
Produce "drama" using the acquisition of resources as a backdrop, etc.

The antagonist could be found on the manner of how the vanishing happened. Was it a conspiracy, or an accident?
Where are the clues hidden?

Also, this could help.
[video=youtube;Eym4PwHmUvI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eym4PwHmUvI[/video]


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## Kyle R (Feb 23, 2013)

Max22 said:


> Ultimately, I just feel as though my story is mainly people talking with little action. They want to get to the MC’s mother ASAP but the story lacks urgency since they can simply drive across the country to get there.



The antagonist works against the protagonist, obstructing his goals.

So if the goal is to drive across the country to get there, the antagonist is anyone, or anything, that makes that difficult.

In this case, I'd say the antagonist is the setting, and other individuals in it. The car breaking down. Bad weather. Selfish individuals they come across who may try to rob them, or hurt them. (et cetera)

The antagonist doesn't have to be an individual. It can be circumstances. Example: the movie Cast-Away. The antagonist is nature, the elements, and the island. Also, Loneliness is an antagonist.

There are many things you can do with your story, and you can delve deep into the psychological nature of your characters' situation as well. 

You know the goal already: getting across the country to the MC's mother. So now you just throw everything against the MC, so it seems more and more impossible to get there, and the reader begins biting her nails, trying to see just how on earth he's going to do it! :encouragement:


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## Hemlock (Feb 23, 2013)

On a relevant note, this scenario is often explored in anime and manga.
[h=3]_Highschool of the Dead_[/h]


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## Max22 (Feb 23, 2013)

Thanks for the responses everyone! This site has always been so helpful! 

@*Robdemanc *I haven't read Gone, and for some reason I never came across it whilst I was researching the idea of mass groups of people vanishing. The book sounds pretty good, would you recommend it?  

@ *C.M. Aaron* What caused the vanishing? I’m still undecided. But with the story as it is, the characters would have no way of finding out what caused it so I was going to keep it as what the characters know, so does the reader. All the character would learn is hear-say from people they meet along the way, which would be mere speculation. I do want to reveal what caused the vanishing eventually… or do you think that will take the mystery out of it? One of my characters even says, in response to the speculation; “It doesn’t matter why it happened. It happened. Now we’ve got to deal with it.” So I’m unsure if I want to explain how it happened.

I’m really glad you said, “Is this person still out to get everyone who did not vanish?” I never thought of this before and that would definitely be an interesting way to introduce a group of antagonists. Makes me think of The Others from Lost in a way.

@ *seigfried007* Thanks for the recommendation of The Road. I have ordered the book on amazon! I love The Walking Dead so much!  In regards to the car, I like the idea of them traveling via car and then being able to talk or come across others when they move the stalled cars off the road. As they travel they stock up their car with supplies and gas, then it gets stolen.  This is at the time the daughter gets taken. 

@ *Cadence* Thanks for the recommendation of Fallout 3. I will check it out. And this line has me thinking, “Develop them out of an issue, or a conflict that would exist in your world.” Also thanks for commenting, I recognise your name from my past posts! 


@ *Hemlock* Thank you for providing that video! I watched a History Channel show about life after humans so I'm definitely going to check your one out. Did you know that power grids will shut down just 2 hours if people did vanish? That’s much quicker than I thought! With regards to the vanishing being supernatural or natural, I’ve always seen it as supernatural. Could there be a natural explanation for it?

@ *KyleColorado* Thanks for your input. I never considered the elements as something they would have to face, but naturally that would happen, so I’m going to include that!


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## Kentobu (Feb 23, 2013)

Hmm, what you have so far definitely sounds interesting. Scratch that, it sounds awesome. Now I see everyone had given a lot of good advice, but I have an idea if you feel you need a lasting human antagonist. Maybe the group ends up running across a group of bandits of sorts(Bandits... how original right?) and manage to escape. It could be so that maybe the leader of the bandits is harmed in some way. He'd be a vengeful hateful person and could follow them for quite a while trying to kill or get back at the MC. Maybe the MC could accidentally take something from the leader. However it would be done, a person wronged and on a quest for revenge might be possible in your setting. No matter what you decide, I wish you good luck with the writing and creating.


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## Hemlock (Feb 23, 2013)

@Power Grid shutdown
Well that explains a lot. 2 hours without electricity is enough to drive some people ballistic.  :icon_bounce:

We're waiting on your progress regarding this story! Keep the questions coming.
---
@cause of disappearance
I've once read a manga wherein people vanish the moment they tell a lie. then whatever their last thought was, gets left behind in a form of a note stuck to their clothes. woops.


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## dolphinlee (Feb 25, 2013)

There has been talk about stealing the car or gasoline. What about stealing the daughter? Without going into details females  would be a valuable commodity (for use or trade) in a time when the population has been drastically decreased.


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## Robdemanc (Feb 25, 2013)

I would recommend you read "Gone" if you are planning this story that you describe.  Personally I did not like the book, there was no explanation in it as to why everyone vanished apart from the kids.


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## Whisper (Feb 25, 2013)

Writing a story is a lot like playing chess. You have to have a good opening as well as a good middle and end game. By your explanation of your problem, you started a story with no clear middle or end game. You just decided to write a story and see where it takes you. This is discovery writing. The problem is you may not be a discovery writer. You might be an outline writer. 

Therefore, writing an outline might be your best solution. If I were you, I’d put the story down for a bit and start thinking about where you want your characters to end up at the end of the story and then outline how you get them from point A to point B.

After that, begin thinking about obstacles in their path. What would happen if that many people ‘just vanished?’ You already mentioned one, the power goes out. Think about what the power outage would mean to the people left. Hospitals are gone or at least non-functional without doctors (there might be medical issue which requires them to go to a hostile and research how to perform something), infrastructure starts to go (bridges wash out, snow isn't removed) and nuclear power plants melt down.

How are the people left going to act? Many are going to be freaked out and turn to Religion. Since this event is similar to the Rapture you can play with this in all sorts of ways. Maybe a preacher has gone insane because since he was left behind maybe he thinks God didn’t think he was good enough so he is setting out to build a perfect utopia somewhere and the characters run into him (this could be good or bad)

Are all the characters left behind good people? If not, you have people that will try to take advantage of the situation. Rapists, murders, slavers generally bad people.


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## Foxee (Feb 25, 2013)

Off topic: I keep seeing the title of this thread and thinking I can make you an offer. For a relatively small fee (or several uneasy payments) I'll antagonize you like there's no tomorrow.


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## JosephB (Feb 25, 2013)

Foxee said:


> Off topic: I keep seeing the title of this thread  and thinking I can make you an offer. For a relatively small fee (or  several uneasy payments) I'll antagonize you like there's no  tomorrow.



I can vouch for that. I remember from when you were on staff and you did it for free.


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## Foxee (Feb 25, 2013)

Back then I was just practicing.


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## Max22 (Feb 26, 2013)

@*dolphinlee*, I originally planned for the daughter to be taken by an escaped prisoner but then I thought this would be too dark. The obvious assumption would be that he would abuse her. I didn't want to go down that route. I've decided that a parent who has lost her child kidnaps the daughter because she believes the MC has kidnapped the girl. I understand what you mean though, I think if I go down that route I'll use older women.

@Whisper. You're exactly right! I had an idea and just thought I'd see how it worked out. I usually have a clear beginning, middle and end but this time I just thought I'd jump into it. I'm going to take your advice and start writing an outline. I've watched a documentary about what would happen if people vanished and I learnt that nuclear power stations would eventually suffer a meltdown - this would pretty much destroy everything in its path. Overall, a ton of horrible stuff would happen that would pretty much kill the characters within 2-3 months. Although it's realistic, I don't want to do that. I was just thinking about The Walking Dead, they don't seem to face the realistic scenarios that would have happened - a meltdown being one, but also wild hungry animals escaping from zoos. I guess with all the walkers around, they don't need to add to their problems. But to get back on point, I am going to have a con man who is part of the group, also my MC past will slowly be revealed and we’ll learn he’s not the nice guy everyone thinks he is.

@Foxee. Haha thanks for the offer, but I'm going to politely turn it down 

@*Hemlock - Well this question is really for everyone, but what do you think of flashbacks? My characters have such good back stories that I really want to explore them opposed to just stating what happened to them before. So in essence, the story would be flashback heavy but I will ensure that the story is moving forward and not rooted in the past. *
*With my flashbacks I will plot them in reverse, so the reader learns one thing about a character and thinks they know them, but in the subsequent flashback they’ll learn something that will alter the impression they got of that character from the previous flashback.*


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## Whisper (Feb 26, 2013)

Max22;1607292@Whisper. You're exactly right! I had an idea and just thought I'd see how it worked out. I usually have a clear beginning said:
			
		

> Well this question is really for everyone, but what do you think of flashbacks? My characters have such good back stories that I really want to explore them opposed to just stating what happened to them before. So in essence, the story would be flashback heavy but I will ensure that the story is moving forward and not rooted in the past. [/B]



The nuclear power plants was just an example, most Apoc books ignore the nuclear reactor. I found a map online of all the commerical reactors in the U.S. and there are a lot of them. I'm writing an Apoc book myself and dealing with the issue too, but at the same time I'm cheating (just a little). However, I think you could probably get away with just not mentioning them, as must apoc books do.

I'm not a big fan of flashbacks to years in the past. It tends to jerk people out of the story. It works in movies and TV because it's visual, but I don't think it works all that well in novels. I prefer to release the info over conversation (campfire chit chat) or in little background snippits (seeing something reminds the MC of something and you mention it in a small paragraph).


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## Outiboros (Feb 26, 2013)

Some inspiration, perhaps?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPCBOXaymsY

Nuclear reactors have already been mentioned, I see. What about hungry packs of dogs, cattle dying due to malnourishment, escaped zoo animals, bursting gas lines, cracking river dams...


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## seigfried007 (Feb 26, 2013)

Foul weather--floods (of rain water, burst dams, damaged water towers, sewage); tornadoes; typhoons; tsunami; volcanoes; giant mutant animals; diseases and plagues (ebola, zombies, e. coli, parasites, black plague, small pox--just think of the possibilities of life without meds and doctors); swarms of insects like fleas, locusts, flies; rabies!; bands of cannibals; gangs...


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## Foxee (Feb 26, 2013)

Max22 said:


> @Foxee. Haha thanks for the offer, but I'm going to politely turn it down


Poor thing, you'll never know what you missed.

Looks like you're getting a lot of great suggestions. Remember to play the environment against the characters, that's something that can really come into play a lot in post-apocalyptic stories.

Don't get too flashback-heavy. Unless you're writing something like LOST it can be really distracting.


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## Leyline (Feb 26, 2013)

I'm just going to make a reading suggestion:

Wolf And Iron by Gordon R. Dickson.

This is a little known example of the post-apocalyptic genre. Sadly, because it's one of the best. Assiduously researched, ultra-realistic, and a near perfect blend of pragmatic action and emotion. On topic, it's a brilliant example of a novel that doesn't have an 'antagonist' in the individual sense. The situation is the antagonist.

Off topic, it was one of my mother's favorite novels. She must have read it dozens of times. And, for whatever reason, I am really missing her today. So, I recommend.


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## Whisper (Feb 26, 2013)

seigfried007 said:


> Foul weather--floods (of rain water, burst dams, damaged water towers, sewage); tornadoes; typhoons; tsunami; volcanoes; giant mutant animals; diseases and plagues (ebola, zombies, e. coli, parasites, black plague, small pox--just think of the possibilities of life without meds and doctors); swarms of insects like fleas, locusts, flies; rabies!; bands of cannibals; gangs...



The bands of cannibals wouldn't be an issue here. If 95 percent of the people just vanished, think of all the food left behind in houses. There will be lots of canned food everywhere.


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## Lewdog (Feb 26, 2013)

Isn't this basically the premise for "The Stand," by Stephen King?  The mother the protagonist is searching for, happens to be God, and his mission is to lead the group to Las Vegas and banish Satan and all the survivors that Satan has talked into following him?  It's been awhile since I read the book, so don't grill me too hard.


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## Whisper (Feb 26, 2013)

Leyline said:


> I'm just going to make a reading suggestion:
> 
> Wolf And Iron by Gordon R. Dickson.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reading suggestion. I just ordered it from Amazon. It wasn't available on Kindle, which is okay. I still like to read paper books. Interesting to note, there were three never-been-read/unopened copies available for $800 to $900. I passed on those.


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## Whisper (Feb 26, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> Isn't this basically the premise for "The Stand," by Stephen King? The mother the protagonist is searching for, happens to be God, and his mission is to lead the group to Las Vegas and banish Satan and all the survivors that Satan has talked into following him? It's been awhile since I read the book, so don't grill me too hard.



It's the premise for a lot of Apoc books. However, that said, The Stand was more a pandemic followed by a supernatural heavyweight Good vs Evil fight


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## Lewdog (Feb 26, 2013)

Whisper said:


> It's the premise for a lot of Apoc books. However, that said, The Stand was more a pandemic followed by a supernatural heavyweight Good vs Evil fight




Just the whole idea of so many people just vanishing, then a 'mother' calls the survivors to come west, strikes a large similarity to me.


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## Whisper (Feb 26, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> Just the whole idea of so many people just vanishing, then a 'mother' calls the survivors to come west, strikes a large similarity to me.



Actually, she called them to Denver. So, depending on where you were at the time, it would be North, South, East or West. And believe me, they didn't 'just' vanish. King spent a lot of detailing the spread of the pandemic early in the book which is one reason I like it so much.


But, that's usually the premise behind many Apocalypse or Post Apocalypse books, otherwise it would be something else. I guessing boring.


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## seigfried007 (Feb 26, 2013)

Whisper said:


> The bands of cannibals wouldn't be an issue here. If 95 percent of the people just vanished, think of all the food left behind in houses. There will be lots of canned food everywhere.




95% of more than 6,000,000,000 people? 

Houses have guard dogs, alarm systems, locks, etc. Businesses will be the first to be raided (and there will be murders over stupid things and territory). People are cruel, stupid organisms. They will band together for largely selfish reasons, with the strongest person at the top of the hierarchy, especially as time without order lengthens. Gangs are going to be a big problem--especially in urban areas where survival and agrarian know-how is nil. Because they lack a sense of security and a fear of enforcement, most cities and suburbs will be overrun in turf wars. The nature in such times is to hoard because the ignorant do not know how to farm or take care of themselves. No amount of resources will be seen as 'enough' by those at the top of groups, while familial hold-outs may have more temperance (more likely fear of being robbed). 

I don't see it being such a problem in rural settings. 

But I do see a lot of nice people being ruthlessly exploited because of a perceived shift in morality, from Rule of Law to Survival of the Fittest. Suddenly the strong, stupid, ignorant, ruthless, felonious, criminal aspects of society can rise to their worst (or best if they choose to do so). 

5% of several billion is still a lot of people. Depending largely on who vanishes, the moral caliber of humanity will be largely affected.


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## Whisper (Feb 26, 2013)

seigfried007 said:


> Houses have guard dogs, alarm systems, locks, etc. Businesses will be the first to be raided (and there will be murders over stupid things and territory). People are cruel, stupid organisms. They will band together for largely selfish reasons, with the strongest person at the top of the hierarchy, especially as time without order lengthens. Gangs are going to be a big problem--especially in urban areas where survival and agrarian know-how is nil. Because they lack a sense of security and a fear of enforcement, most cities and suburbs will be overrun in turf wars. The nature in such times is to hoard because the ignorant do not know how to farm or take care of themselves. No amount of resources will be seen as 'enough' by those at the top of groups, while familial hold-outs may have more temperance (more likely fear of being robbed).



I don't disagree with the above, in fact, I totally agree. Still, I don't see food as much of a problem for people for a few years (especially if 95% of people just suddenly dissapear). Thank of all the food warehouses that are out there. Not to mention wildlife will rebound in a big way. 

It may not be easy at times, but I don't think people will end up resorting to canniblism.

Also, if 95% dissapear, at least over the next several months you're looking at least another 1% or 2% more dying within a year due to what you describe above as well as from sickness and lack of care (blind people and other disabled with no one to look after them).


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## seigfried007 (Feb 26, 2013)

My problem with warehouse theory is:

1. Perishables and goods that require refrigeration
2. You're not the only one who's thinking of high-tailing it to the local grocery and wholesaler in an emergency. EVERY emergency requires locals to hit up Wal-Mart for everything it's worth. Big storm coming? Everyone goes to Wal-Mart for batteries, food, flashlights, water, etc. Think about the ruckus that kind of emergency would generate.

I'd give any grocery a week before either everything is emptied or some group takes the building over (possibly both). I've worked retail during emergencies before--the groceries, water and batteries are GONE overnight in advance of extreme weather. Night stock men have lots to do on those nights. 



That said, I think this story calls for Godspeed You! Black Emperor. 

Try Rockets Fall on Rocket Falls, East Hastings, Dead Flag Blues, etc. I've found Godspeed to be especially great for writing post-apocalyptic, science fiction, war or anything depressing or nerve-racking. 

Godspeed You Black Emperor - Providence - YouTube


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## Hemlock (Feb 26, 2013)

Max22 said:


> @*Hemlock - Well this question is really for everyone, but what do you think of flashbacks? My characters have such good back stories that I really want to explore them opposed to just stating what happened to them before. So in essence, the story would be flashback heavy but I will ensure that the story is moving forward and not rooted in the past. *
> *With my flashbacks I will plot them in reverse, so the reader learns one thing about a character and thinks they know them, but in the subsequent flashback they’ll learn something that will alter the impression they got of that character from the previous flashback.*


I apologize for the late reply, but after reading that I can only say that you have a good plan so far, Max. I also usually execute my flashbacks similar to yours. Your portrayal will either make or break them, so good luck on that. rofiler:


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## Whisper (Feb 27, 2013)

seigfried007 said:


> My problem with warehouse theory is:
> 
> 1. Perishables and goods that require refrigeration
> 2. You're not the only one who's thinking of high-tailing it to the local grocery and wholesaler in an emergency. EVERY emergency requires locals to hit up Wal-Mart for everything it's worth. Big storm coming? Everyone goes to Wal-Mart for batteries, food, flashlights, water, etc. Think about the ruckus that kind of emergency would generate.
> ...



Alright, let’s break this down by the numbers. Well use my hometown of Charlotte, N.C. for this example.

Situation: 95% of the population of the World just disappears
Add an additional 1% die slower, but within a few days, due to sudden death of shock and suicide as well as people not being able to take care of themselves because they are infirm, elderly, blind, paralyzed, violence, etc.

Charlotte has a population of approximately 750,000 living in and around the city, round it up to 1 million because there are a lot of smaller areas within spitting distance of Charlotte. I live in one. 

1,000,000 – 96% = 960,000
40,000 people are still left.

How many of these flee the city within days to go check on family members in other areas
Let’s just say 1,000, but we’ll probably have just as many come to town looking for family members so no loss or gain. Therefore, leaving other factors we’ll keep the new population of Charlotte and the immediate surrounding area at 40,000 people of all types.


Next problem:
Charlotte with the surrounding area is approximately 300 square miles
If we count every house, apartment complex, townhouse, condo (inside and outside the city) there is probably easily 1 for every person So that’s nearly 1 million homes with food sources for 40,000 people.
Within a day or two probably 10% will burn down because (depending on the time of day the disappearance happened) there may be food on the stove, heaters or candles burning or just random electrical shortages. So now we are left with 900,000 homes. Because the electricity is still on, for at least the next two weeks you have to count on being able to get frozen food out of homes, but that will eventually end.

Within a 5 mile radius of your house how many

Major Chain Grocery stores 
Mom and Pop smaller grocery stores
Box stores (Walmart, K-mart)
Restaurants
Fast food joints
Convenience stores (7/11 types)
Drug stores (Walgreens, Eckerd, etc)
Vending machines
Trucks on the highway with dry food inside
Warehouse district where very large numbers of different food is stored
wildlife (including fishing lakes, rivers, pounds)
Probably a bunch I’m missing


Even after the electricity goes off and frozen stuff spoils, this is a large number of potential food sources to divide among 40,000 people. In a large city like Charlotte I’m guessing there are probably upwards of nearly 10,000 grocery stores. Even with hording, more than enough to feed the population for a few years.


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## Max22 (Feb 27, 2013)

@Whipser. Yeah, I’ll avoid them. What’s the premise of your Apoc book? You don’t have to share if you don’t wish, I’m just curious. I think you’re right about flashbacks being more visual, I’ll think of other ways to include things from their past. Maybe I’ll throw in the odd flashback though.

@ Outiboros. Thanks for the video link, it’s a very informative show.

@ seigfried007 and Foxee . I’m definitely going to incorporate the environment more into my story now.

@ Leyline. Thanks for the book suggestion, I really like that premise! I really should read more post apoc literature.

I’ve enjoyed reading the discussion between Lewdog, Whisper and seigfried007. I too don’t foresee food supplies being that much of a problem, at least in the short term. There will be a lot of canned goods for such a little amount of people. I am going to have my characters regularly raid stores for non-perishable food. Also, that's a great detailed breakdown Whisper! 

*I have a new question for you all:*
Early on in the story, the MC’s daughter will be kidnapped. In his attempt to prevent her being taken, the kidnappers shoot him and then flee in his car (he has great supplies). The group of three the MC has been travelling with are nearby but did not witness the kidnapping, but are aware of what happened. The MC blacks out and the group need to get him medical help. Fortunately they are within a few miles of a hospital, but they must walk as there are no other working cars in the immediate area. They come across a police officer (he’s not really one) and his girlfriend who have a working car, they agrees to take them to the hospital. Due to space only the MC and one of the other characters travel with them. This forces two of them to walk.

The issue I’m facing is how the group would find the kidnapped daughter? They can’t exactly ask for witnesses or raise awareness via media. Due to the time they have lost getting to the hospital, the kidnappers could have driven very far away and the trail could go cold.

So how do they find her in this new world? Where would you even start?

I was thinking of setting up a trail of breadcrumbs, so to speak. The daughter enjoys filming and carries around a small camera (run by batteries, of course). Once they begin their search they come across a cassette tape that indicates that she was once there. Eventually they’d find some more and know they are heading in the right direction. Due to cars blocking major highways, the kidnappers would be forced to walk and eventually the group would catch up with them. Would do you think? Any good?


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## Max22 (Mar 1, 2013)

Any ideas?


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## seigfried007 (Mar 1, 2013)

Whisper said:


> Alright, let’s break this down by the numbers. Well use my hometown of Charlotte, N.C. for this example.
> 
> Situation: 95% of the population of the World just disappears
> Add an additional 1% die slower, but within a few days, due to sudden death of shock and suicide as well as people not being able to take care of themselves because they are infirm, elderly, blind, paralyzed, violence, etc.
> ...



Therein lie our differences, Whisper:

You live in Charlotte, and I live in Indianapolis (but have lived in lots of other places, on both coasts, rural, urban, you name it). Charlotte and even Indy are still very different places and populations. I currently live in inner city area, so I'm inclined to think of the worst in humanity. 

You seem to like this notion that people can be content, whereas I don't see that when I look out the window, or go shopping, or work at Wal-mart. I see tons of impatient, terrible people bent on their own dreams (or like thereof), people more than willing to, especially in a post-apocalyptic scenario, murder their neighbors for a bag of Skittles. You can never have enough resources when you have no idea to grow your own food or truthfully take care of yourself in any meaningful, sustainable fashion. 

Rural populations know how to care for themselves much better. They depend on and know each other more, also. I've lived in rural places full of farmers and livestock, etc. The amount of community is much stronger, despite all of the 'community' in metropolitan areas. Metro areas just use terms like that as a way of making themselves feel less isolated (though I've found these to be based on superficial differences rather than any real knowledge of others as individuals. It's a glorified mob mentality.)

I think you may be underestimating the greed and bodily needs of that many people, but also their emotional state and how long-term the collapse may be. The longer the lack of order, the crazier things are going to get.


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## WechtleinUns (Mar 1, 2013)

7,000,000,000 * .04 = 280 Million individuals left on the planet. The amount of human interaction depends highly on the distribution of vanished people. For example, if the sample distribution of  vanished persons were done in simple random sample fashion, then the new population per square mile would be: 1.4 people per square mile. This is because simple random sample doesn't take into account geographic densities. It only selects humans for vanishment at random.

The net result would be bronze age population levels spread out evenly across the globe. Because of the distribution spread, however, we would effectively be returned to paleolithic times in terms of human interaction. A group of 5 people coming together after the vanishment would be effectively cut off from the rest of humanity. They might go generations before seeing another human being.

Furthermore, gasoline vehicles would not be effective modes of transportation, because of inaccessibility at the pump. After electrical failures, gasoline pumps would cease to work(no financial sector to take your debit card).

Additional hazards include the massive amounts of chlorine gas that would be pumped into the atmosphere. Chlorine gas is currently stored in liquid form at power-plants under refrigeration. When refrigeration fails, the chlorine would no longer be able to be contained, and the release valves would all trigger. Regions comparative to the east/west, and texas coast would be decimated by toxic chemicals killing wildlife and farm animals.

Dogs would revert to feral instincts, and without steady food supply, would resort to cannabilism. Grocery stores, without refrigeration, would be limited to dry goods of grains, pastas, and prepackaged, preprocessed meals. Supermarket meat would become poisonous within a matter of hours, and fruits and vegetables would go bad due to proximity to the meat and fungus. Furthermore, without people, rats and other vermin would infest the supermarkets and eat nuts and berries that don't go bad very quickly.

Finally, there are the dozen or so nuclear power-plants just in the United States alone, which use up billions of gallons of water ever day to keep their reactors from meltdown temperatures. As the electrical grid failed, so to would water systems pumping into nuclear reactor rods. Left unchecked, the nuclear fusion would boil away the water and promptly go into meltdown. You could expect the west coast, the east coast, and the state of Texas to be awash with toxic chlorine gas(equivalent to german mustard gas used in WWII), as well as be awash in about four chernobyl-like situations within 7 days. Anyone who survived the "vanishment" and lived anywhere near any major urban areas would have approximately 7 * 24 = 168 hours to reach the north-midwest, near the canadian border, in order to be safe.

Planting crops would also be exceedingly difficult. Without nitrate-enriched fertilizers, crops would suffer sever shortages. What's more, the radiation would spread far enough to poison a significant amount of anything planted into the soil. The crops that would grow would probably give rise to increased cancer rates and kill off a significant amount of people who ate them.

Even then, the clock is much quicker. Sewage lines would explode in urban areas like new york city(due to pressure buildup), which would make roads(and therefore cars) useless in the first twenty-four hours after the "vanishment".

All of that aside, I'd say there would be plenty of excitement in the first twenty four hours after the vanishment. But after that, you are basically talking about something much worse than post-apocalyptic scenarios. Assuming 1000 humans could find a way to group together against impossible odds, it would be a very, very long time before any type of significant civilization or human culture would find it's way back into the day.

You'd essentially be setting the clock back 10,000 years. All in all, it might make for a very interesting epic saga. But you would have to write quite a bit.


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## Max22 (Mar 2, 2013)

Thanks for the details WechtleinUns, you seem very knowledgeable on this subject. For my story, I'm going to be more unrealistic. As you have said, most people would be dead within a week and then the survivors of the toxic chlorine gas wouldn't have much quality of life due to scarce food. That being said, the only two thing I am excluding from my story is the nuclear reactor meltdowns and the sewage in the streets.


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## WechtleinUns (Mar 2, 2013)

Thank you, Max22. Good luck with writing your book!


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## Whisper (Mar 2, 2013)

WechtleinUns said:


> Furthermore, gasoline vehicles would not be effective modes of transportation, because of inaccessibility at the pump. After electrical failures, gasoline pumps would cease to work(no financial sector to take your debit card).
> 
> Additional hazards include the massive amounts of chlorine gas that would be pumped into the atmosphere. Chlorine gas is currently stored in liquid form at power-plants under refrigeration. When refrigeration fails, the chlorine would no longer be able to be contained, and the release valves would all trigger. Regions comparative to the east/west, and texas coast would be decimated by toxic chemicals killing wildlife and farm animals.



With vehicles pretty much EVERYWHERE this would probably be the easiest. Just jump in a car, when it runs out of gas jump in another one. If you really find a vechicle you like, just use a syphone.



The chlorine gas is interesting. I'm still doing some research on this. I'm trying to find out how persistant it is. 

 It's heavyier than air, so getting to high ground might help depending on concentration and it would also be affected by weather. A light wind will push it around, but storm wind might break it up. If a large cloud forms on the east coast then it will eventually be pushed to sea where storm weather will deal with it. If it happened in Texas, it would follow basic weather patterns, but again, it depends on how persistant (staying power) it is. That's always been the problem with chemical weapons, they tend to break up over time.

This is an interesting question with research still in progress.


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## Staff Deployment (Mar 2, 2013)

Foxee said:


> Remember to play the environment against the characters, that's something that can really come into play a lot in post-apocalyptic stories.





Leyline said:


> On topic, it's a brilliant example of a novel that doesn't have an 'antagonist' in the individual sense. The situation is the antagonist.



That's the thing with post-apocalyptic stories. When you introduce a physical antagonist, it dampens the effect somewhat. The greatest and most powerful antagonist you could hope to write about would be the environment itself, especially considering how reliant we are on power and comfort in our daily lives. The conflict arises when we're returned back ten thousand years to the state where we have to fight against the natural world rather than among ourselves.

That's why I can't stand that Revolution thing by J.J. Abrams. The power going out is just a backdrop. There's no real point to the setting besides setting up a storm of clichéd plot devices and melodrama.


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## Max22 (Mar 4, 2013)

> With vehicles pretty much EVERYWHERE this would probably be the easiest. Just jump in a car, when it runs out of gas jump in another one.



I agree, that's what has been happening in my story. There's cars everywhere, except in more rural places, but they find a car eventually. I don't know what you call them, but those  petrol containers that you can store petrol in and just pour it in whenever needed. My characters have these just in case.

@Staff Deployment. I haven't watched that show, I've given up on JJ's TV shows, Lost was amazing but after that he's show have really been below par. Alcatraz anyone? Now that was a terrible show. And thanks for your advice about using the environment opposed to a physical antagonist. 

I'm going to repost this as I think it's may have been overlooked in the current discussion

*I have a new question for you all:*
Early on in the story, the MC’s daughter will be kidnapped. In his attempt to prevent her being taken, the kidnappers shoot him and then flee in his car (he has great supplies). The group of three the MC has been travelling with are nearby but did not witness the kidnapping, but are aware of what happened. The MC blacks out and the group need to get him medical help. Fortunately they are within a few miles of a hospital, but they must walk as there are no other working cars in the immediate area. They come across a police officer (he’s not really one) and his girlfriend who have a working car, they agrees to take them to the hospital. Due to space only the MC and one of the other characters travel with them. This forces two of them to walk.

The issue I’m facing is how the group would find the kidnapped daughter? They can’t exactly ask for witnesses or raise awareness via media. Due to the time they have lost getting to the hospital, the kidnappers could have driven very far away and the trail could go cold.

So how do they find her in this new world? Where would you even start?

I was thinking of setting up a trail of breadcrumbs, so to speak. The daughter enjoys filming and carries around a small camera (run by batteries, of course). Once they begin their search they come across a cassette tape that indicates that she was once there. Eventually they’d find some more and know they are heading in the right direction. Due to cars blocking major highways, the kidnappers would be forced to walk and eventually the group would catch up with them. Would do you think? Any good?


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## Whisper (Mar 4, 2013)

Max22 said:


> *I have a new question for you all:*
> Early on in the story, the MC’s daughter will be kidnapped. In his attempt to prevent her being taken, the kidnappers shoot him and then flee in his car (he has great supplies). The group of three the MC has been travelling with are nearby but did not witness the kidnapping, but are aware of what happened. The MC blacks out and the group need to get him medical help. Fortunately they are within a few miles of a hospital, but they must walk as there are no other working cars in the immediate area. They come across a police officer (he’s not really one) and his girlfriend who have a working car, they agrees to take them to the hospital. Due to space only the MC and one of the other characters travel with them. This forces two of them to walk.
> 
> The issue I’m facing is how the group would find the kidnapped daughter? They can’t exactly ask for witnesses or raise awareness via media. Due to the time they have lost getting to the hospital, the kidnappers could have driven very far away and the trail could go cold.
> ...




If this happens, then this has to become the focus of the story, because it's not going to be easy and to make it happen over the course of a few days will cheapin the encounter. . Since he was shot and needs medical attention it may be at least a week or more before he's able to travel safely. As for finding them, it might be an impossible task, but basically, you start by following in the general direction they went and then start asking questions with people you pass. A group like this is going to leave a wake of destruction in their path so people will remember them. In fact, since the world is so depopulated any group should be memorable. Unless this group is going to remain nomadic forever, eventually they will find a place to stay or will stay in places for a few days. That how your MC will eventually catch up. It will either be their temp home or permanet. 


Bread crumbs should be in the form of people that survived the encounter, or maybe the daughter leaves things of hers on the road.


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## WechtleinUns (Mar 4, 2013)

Why would a group of (I'm assuming two to three individuals) kidnap someone in a post-apocalyptic hellscape with limited resources? She'd be another mouth to feed, and there's no way they'd get any ransom money for her.

The only thing I can think of would be to breed with her. If she is an attractive young girl, then I'd say the legal "age of consent" probably dropped by about 5 to 6 years as soon as the legal system went out the window.

That is something you might want to consider, and deal with delicately, in your story. When there are billions of people on the planet, women and girls, in particular, have much more resources available to them. Especially in the United States, where they have full legal access and recompense.

But in world with such low population density, women would get a surprise demotion. When sexual reproduction rights are so valuable, women might be demoted to property again. It's a tricky situation. As for getting the daughter back, you'd have to know where they took her, yes? Where did they take the daughter, and what do they plan to do with her?

Chances are they aren't taking her to some new york sex dungeon. They probably won't be taking her anywhere, but just want a wife who will bear their children and cook them hot meals. This means that to find them, you'd have to resort to animal-tracking, and it might take a long time. Because of stockholm syndrome, and because the daughter might be somewhat impressionable, and because in such a situation, a kidnapper would not want to harm the mother of his child, it's possible that the relationship between the daughter and the kidnappers might develop in unexpected ways. Chances are this won't be a "damsel in distress" story. Because damsels that are pregnant... well, you get the idea.


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## Max22 (Mar 4, 2013)

@Whisper, 





> Bread crumbs should be in the form of people that survived the encounter, or maybe the daughter leaves things of hers on the road.



Thank you, I like this idea! And I agree, I think this should take a while for them to complete.

@WechtleinUns, the kidnappers are going to be a husband and wife. They kidnap the MC's daughter for two reasons;

1. They had young children who disappeared during the vanishing and are desperate to replace this void in their life.
2. They believe they are in fact rescuing the MC's daughter from him because they think he is a bad man who has taken her. This is due to the fact that the daughter is mixed raced (the MC is Caucasian while the mother was Hispanic) so they make a rash assumption and believe he cannot be her father. 

The daughter is 10 years old, so I want to stay clear of the sexual abuse route since I wouldn't feel comfortable writing about that. Originally, I intended for the daughter to be kidnaped by an escaped prisoner but then I thought the assumption would be that he'd abuse her. The childless couple route sounds nicer because they'd at least look after her, despite being crazy. Plus, I think the reader would be able to sympathize with the couple to some degree, despite their actions.


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## Whisper (Mar 4, 2013)

WechtleinUns said:


> Why would a group of (I'm assuming two to three individuals) kidnap someone in a post-apocalyptic hellscape with limited resources? She'd be another mouth to feed, and there's no way they'd get any ransom money for her.



We’ve already established food is not going to be an issue, so this isn’t simply a case of having another mouth to feed. Food should be ripe for the taking. For example, if you run into a medium town that has at best 2,000 houses and each house only has 1 can of bean, that’s still 2,000 cans of beans. 

I can think of several reasons why this girl would be kidnapped and only a couple are good. However, one reason might be the psychological ‘need’ to replace your missing child with another. Most people can’t handle the loss of a child and running across a child that looks like your dead child where there is no more law might make you inclined to take the child. In fact, of all the reasons, that’s the one I would want it to be if my child was kidnapped. Bad things are unlikely to happen to the child because this is a relatively normal person who has kind of snapped.

In his new reality, people are a resource. If you are the leader of a group of men the best way to remain their leader is to provide for them and make sure their needs are met. If not, you’re not going to be their leader for long. The most successful leaders during classical times were those who provided their people with resources. If you have more men than women then one of those needs is going to be women. I can easily see this going the other way (women looking for men. (unless their Amazonian Lesbians (which would be a whole nother cool book))). Also, for your group to survive they are going to need knowledgeable people so teachers, farmers and other skilled workers are going to be a valuable, also.


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## Max22 (Mar 5, 2013)

Speaking of knowledgeable people, I intended for my MC to be an electrician, it won't come in much use a few hours after the vanishing but that plays into his character. He will learn to become the leader opposed to already having the skillset to be the leader straight away. However, his job is useful a few hours after the vanishing - he is aware that power grids shut down a mere 2 hours after the vanishing since fossil fuels are not powering the system. He also knows that wind power can try to meet the new demand but if there are no people at the power station to authorize that more power is needed, the systems detects a problem and shuts down. But that made me think, would an electrician know this? I only know this from watching a documentary. What kind of job do you think he'd have if he knew all this?


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## Whisper (Mar 5, 2013)

Max22 said:


> Speaking of knowledgeable people, I intended for my MC to be an electrician, it won't come in much use a few hours after the vanishing but that plays into his character. He will learn to become the leader opposed to already having the skillset to be the leader straight away. However, his job is useful a few hours after the vanishing - he is aware that power grids shut down a mere 2 hours after the vanishing since fossil fuels are not powering the system. He also knows that wind power can try to meet the new demand but if there are no people at the power station to authorize that more power is needed, the systems detects a problem and shuts down. But that made me think, would an electrician know this? I only know this from watching a documentary. What kind of job do you think he'd have if he knew all this?



Emergency Management.


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## Max22 (Mar 6, 2013)

Oh interesting, I will look into that! thanks.


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## Max22 (Mar 8, 2013)

Hi, I just want to check I haven't missed anything obvious. After the vanishing occurred, you would call your family to see if you could get to them, check the news and social media to find out if there's any information about what has happened, gather as much supplies as you need and then hit the road (since my MC is traveling to his mother's house). Is there anything I've overlooked? 

Also for those of you who suggested reading The Road, I've bought the book and I'm really enjoying it! I should of read it sooner!


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## Staff Deployment (Mar 8, 2013)

Max22 said:


> The childless couple route sounds nicer because they'd at least look after her, despite being crazy. Plus, I think the reader would be able to sympathize with the couple to some degree, despite their actions.



yesgood


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