# hip hop as poetry?



## Rhymetravilla (May 28, 2018)

Does anyone else on this forum harbor a deep love for the musical genre of hip hop, and or consider it a form of poetry? Some of my favourite all time "poems" Are the lyrics of hip hop tracks. Does anyone else here WRITE rap or want to learn? Sound off bellow! Travilla out!


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## ned (May 28, 2018)

Rhymetravilla said:


> Sound off bellow!



a Freudian slip? - if you think gang culture, gun culture and sexism are worth shouting about, go for it.

Rap died when Blondie came out with Rapture, the best ever rap song - so, the genre has descended into hip-hop.
and with it The Black Street Boys and NWA set a high standard that has only declined.


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## Rhymetravilla (May 28, 2018)

Check out Telephone by no name gypsy,  MM food by mf doom, and only built for cuban lynx by ghostface and raekwon the chef, and get back to me.


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## Rhymetravilla (May 28, 2018)

I would think it only fair to express my opinion that Hip hop is a positive thing that has deeply effect my life, and that gang culture, sexism and guns are hardly a fair statement across the whole genre. Again, no name, a fmeal, non sexualized MC performing with the best male artists of the day.


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## aj47 (May 28, 2018)

I don't want to incendiate anything, but many of the same things were said of rock and other musical genres before they were mainstreamed. (And for the record, guns, misogyny, etc. are ... out there in the wild and people's songs reflect that -- in any genre ... some of the nastiest lyrics are found in traditional folk songs.)


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## Rhymetravilla (May 28, 2018)

I agree wholeheartedly.


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## ned (May 29, 2018)

astroannie said:


> many of the same things were said of rock and other musical genres before they were mainstreamed.



where have you been living? - hip hop has been mainstream for decades now - it's not some new fad - in fact so mainstream, that it has left the streets and moved into the corporate offices.



astroannie said:


> (And for the record, guns, misogyny, etc. are ... out there in the wild and people's songs reflect that -



of course, but there is a world of difference between reflecting social problems and celebrating them.

As said, I have enjoyed and been influenced by much hip hop - most notably the political awareness of Public Enemy.

and from the crack minded attack of NWA to the weedy feel of Dr Dre (hey! I'm a poet).

and no doubt, hip hop has empowered generations of the under-represented to find a voice. 

and of course, it ain't all about gangs, guns, drugs and sexism - but when addressing a whole genre (especially gangsta rap)
I can only generalize, and if we go through all the exceptions, we'll be here all day.

the problem is, the artists may only be reflecting the harsh reality of life on the streets, but I imagine that many naive listeners might take their message as an endorsement of crime.

so, where is hip hop now? - out of interest, I looked up music paper rolling stone for their top ten hip hop songs of all time - the latest one in the list comes from 1994.

I listen to BBC Radio 6, a fabulous station that plays an eclectic mix of music including hip hop - and for the umpteenth time heard Childish Gambino's 'This is America'. - a pleasant enough song, with African beats, gospel choir and really lame lyrics - disappointingly, it descends into the lazy cliche of using gun-fire in an attempt to say anything meaningful.

The video is shocking - dancers smile while the singer shoots people - it looks over-produced and expensive (corporate?)

but if a mainstream hip hop artist can only express himself in the visual medium, rather then in their songs and lyrics, things are looking bad.

hip hop has outlived new wave, indie, grunge and britpop - to name a few - but maybe, it's time is over.

hip hop as poetry? - sure, but not very good poetry (yes, there are bound to be exceptions).

because the bad rhyming and constant cliches do not translate well to the written word - 

sorry to bang on, but I'm enjoying the debate...............Ned


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## Rhymetravilla (May 29, 2018)

A very good post? But a quesion as to the bad rhyming? And keep in mind my tastes are pretty out there. No one in NWA makes my top ten, nor does eminem. And I get the supposed endorsement of crime. But really, bad rhymes? might I reccomend the guidlines by Aceyalone, an MC who is also a spoken word poet.


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## Rhymetravilla (May 29, 2018)

Pharaoh monch, bustarhymes, aceyalone, Del the funky homosapien, slug from atmosphere, Murs Black thought, chance the rapper, mf doom and ghostface killer. Aesop rock and sage francis just miss it for me.


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## ned (May 29, 2018)

far out? 
you seem to have narrowed the parameters of your original question to a cross-section of about a dozen artists.

But I'm interested on how rap/hip hop is written without the music.

What defining features would it have? Would it be the concepts engaged or the layout, perhaps?
Really, I'd like to know your thoughts on this.

You don't like Eminem? - Nor do I.......then again, I don't like Kate Tempest.


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## Rhymetravilla (May 29, 2018)

Usually it is written in a notebook. Sometimes I write long lists of rhyming or related words. I listen to instrumental beats a lot. I think a certain rhythm and rhyme pattern makes a rap a rap.

Sent from my LG-TP260 using Tapatalk


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## Rhymetravilla (May 30, 2018)

https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...2c9f413213836373f90950c9406baad3&action=click 
Just listen to Jay Z's verse on this, and tell me what you think. Even his delivery sounds like spoken word poetry.


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## Paul Atreides (Jun 25, 2018)

I don't know if you would count Hip hop music as poetry, I think that some rappers are very skilled in their lyrics ie Biggie, Em, and Tech N9ne.


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## Rhymetravilla (Jun 25, 2018)

Many more than that, and there is a massive community of less known but still known artists carrying on poetic traditions, perhaps more than any other genre of music I've heard.


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## aj47 (Jun 26, 2018)

Rhymetravilla said:


> Many more than that, and there is a massive community of less known but still known artists carrying on poetic traditions, perhaps more than any other genre of music I've heard.



If it's the most poetic genre you've heard, then maybe broaden your listening?  

No lyrical genre of music has the corner on the poetic market.  There are diamonds and carbuncles pretty much across the spectrum.  Where you have lyrics, you'll have poetry, most of it utter garbage, but a fraction of it truly great.  This goes for hip-hop, country, folk, opera, R&B, metal, ... whatever.


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## Robbie (Jun 26, 2018)

Annie, yes, but a few are nasty in a good way. :icon_cheesygrin:


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## Robbie (Jun 26, 2018)

Aha! I so agree. It’s not even close to Hip Hop but my favorite poem was “Diamonds and Rust” for several years and I still love it.


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## Rhymetravilla (Jul 1, 2018)

astroannie said:


> If it's the most poetic genre you've heard, then maybe broaden your listening?
> 
> No lyrical genre of music has the corner on the poetic market.  There are diamonds and carbuncles pretty much across the spectrum.  Where you have lyrics, you'll have poetry, most of it utter garbage, but a fraction of it truly great.  This goes for hip-hop, country, folk, opera, R&B, metal, ... whatever.


I have fairly eclectic tastes, but stand by my statements. There are great poets and artists in every genre, but the interconnected, inter referential nature of hip hop, and the community out of which is grew has made it especially attractive to young poet seeking to make thier words heard. In addition, as a genre, hip hop is largely constructed from samples of other songs and drum loops, which many hold against it, not unfairly. This is because, to many MCs the content of the lyrics, the poetic merit of that content, outweighs the importance of the beat/music, though you're mileage may vary, drastically so.


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## escorial (Jul 1, 2018)

friday at the bombed out church in liverpool from 4 to 6 they have an open mic were all types of poetry gets performed an after paying my donation of a pound i was listening to what was more like a hip hop gig...the influx of students has brought a more diverse and refreshing change to poetry....didn't stay long myself


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## Rhymetravilla (Jul 1, 2018)

Every open mic poetry event I have ever gone to has been basically a hip hop event, and I've been going for five years.  It works for me.


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## pyroteqnix (Dec 18, 2018)

Hip-Hop is lyrics styled to match a beat.
It can easily be considered a sub-genre of poetry when lyricism still holds out over the instrumental.
For any non-believers, here's the lyrics to Deep Fried Frenz by MF DOOM. Look me in my computer eye and tell me that's not poetry:
(WARNING: Heavy Language and Wisdom, viewers discretion is advised.)
As you call 'em, they call you when they need something
Trees for the blunt, the G's for the front
I found a way to get peace of mind for years and left the hell alone
Turn a deaf ear to the cellular phone
Send me a letter or better, we could see each other in real life
Just so you could feel me like a steel knife
At least so you could see the white of they eyes
Bright with surprise, once they finish spitting lies
Asssociates, is your boys, your girls, bitches, niggas, homies
Close, but really don't know me
Mom, dad, comrade, peeps, brothers, sisters, duns, dunnies
Some come around when they need some money
Others make us laugh like the Sunday funnies
Fam be around whether you paid or bummy
You could either ignore this advice or take it from me
Be too nice and people take you for a dummy
So nowadays he ain't so friendly
Actually they wouldn’t have made a worthy enemy
Read the signs: "No feeding the baboon"
Seein' as how they got ya back bleeding from the stab wounds
Y'all know the dance, they smile in ya face, y'all know the glance
Try to put 'em on, they blow the chance
Never let your so-called mans know your plans
(How many of us have them?) A show of hands
(Friends) is a term some people use loosely
I'm real choosy on what I choose to let crews see
You telling me; I try to act broke
Jealousy the number one killer among black folk
Fellas be under some type of spell like crack smoke
Ghetto Cinderellas, lead 'em right to your stack, loc
Just another way a chick'll lead to your end
I check the dictionary for the meaning of friend
It said: person, one who likes to socialize with
Sympathiser, helper, and that's about the size of it
Most of the time these attributes is one-sided
To bolster the crime, they're apt to shoot you through your eyelid
And they can't hide it, going wild like a white bitch
Sometimes ya need to cut niggas off like a light switch
(Click!) And when things get quiet
Catch 'em like a thief in the night, what a riot
I first met Mr. Fantastik at a arms deal
Don't let it get drastic, think of how your moms'll feel
When it get for real, steel get to sparkin'
Everything darken, and ain't no talkin'
For somethin so cheap, it sure buys a lot of trouble
Ya better off focusing than tryin to plot to bubble
Or else it'd be a sad note to end on, the guns we got is
(One's we can depend on, friends)
Some come in the form of codependence
A lot of times only end up being codefendants
Ten bucks say they tell for a lower sentence
And leave you up under the jail, begging for a penance
It don't make no sense, what happened to the loyalty?
Honor amongst crooks, trust amongst royalty
I'd rather go out in a blaze, than give 'em the glory
(How many of us have--) a similar story
(Friends) before lovers, we used to have some type of over-standing
Just so when I let her get the man thing, she know it's no strings
We could do the damn thing, but ho, it's no rings
Just how the tramp swings
Will she see 'em again?
That depends on how good was the skins and could she memorize the lessons
It ain't no need to pretend
Even though she let 'em stab it, she know they're just friends


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## Cunningstuff (Jan 1, 2019)

Opinions of music are probably best taken lightly in a forum that focuses on writing. amirite?


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## Cunningstuff (Jan 1, 2019)

ned said:


> a Freudian slip? - if you think gang culture, gun culture and sexism are worth shouting about, go for it.
> 
> Rap died when Blondie came out with Rapture, the best ever rap song - so, the genre has descended into hip-hop.
> and with it The Black Street Boys and NWA set a high standard that has only declined.




I really must clarify my statement. This is why I said what I said, first reply is from someone who knows NOTHING of rap, hip hop or its related genres. My friend Ted in Denver for years ran an award winning poetry night in Denver that would have to be directly related to the culture. Gang culture is absolutely a part of all our culture, as it is a culture. Agreement or decision that it is or isn't irrelevant is ... ridiculous at best. Okay rant over, back to reading the rest of the replies.


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## Darren White (Jan 1, 2019)

Cunningstuff said:


> Opinions of music are probably best taken lightly in a forum that focuses on writing. amirite?


Not necessarily 
Especially since lyrics and music are tied together, and lyrics and poetry are as well.

I am a poet, I write lyrics too, and I could never do that without music.

This topic is therefore not about music per se, but rather about whether lyrics, hip hop in this case, can be regarded as poetry or not


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## Cunningstuff (Jan 1, 2019)

Darren White said:


> Not necessarily
> Especially since lyrics and music are tied together, and lyrics and poetry are as well.
> 
> I am a poet, I write lyrics too, and I could never do that without music.
> ...



Just to clarify, I agree with you. I also think that rap/hip hop/anything with an MC/.ect is absolutely and most definitely a form of poetry. The point I was making was that the statement of music came from the opinion of someone about what they consider music or not. I think the statement they made was poorly said, and even more poorly defended. Rapture is the best? by Blondie? I am no expert in rap, but I hold Swishahouse dear to my heart, and uh... so does Rice University in Houston, Texas, USA. If a University can consider holding an archive important, I would ask that the writer of that original statement I quoted also do so. Not that Universities are my idea of the end all be all of learning, but in general, they are at least considered smart enough to issue credentials that our youth use to move forward in our world.


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## Winston (Jan 1, 2019)

"Back in the day" I got into Ice T and Public Enemy.  Later, it was Rage Against the Machine and The Coup.  "Genocide and Juice", Hell yeah.  
If the writing is smart, and I can understand the lyrics, I'm in.  And too much sampling (on repeat) is just plain lazy and irritating.  
Kinda related, I appreciate the artistry of spoken-word performers like Henry Rollins.  
If there's a message, and it's well articulated, I can listen.  Even if I don't agree with the message.  But, you got the damn mike.  Say something.

PS:  It all started in NYC with Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five.  That was the stuff.  Pure, potent, and just plain fine.


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## hubriscomplex (Feb 18, 2019)

I think it depends on the song, but then again, poetry seems to be defined so loosely that anything can be poetry


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## JosephSC (Apr 7, 2020)

I feel like music in general shouldn't be considered a form of poetry. Lyrics may seem poetic, but the theme of a song may be very dependent on how the music sounds. In musicals a lot of themes are portrayed through what are called "motifs." These are recurrent musical phrases that create an overall arch. In the musical "Waitress" the phrase, "Sugar, butter, flour" is a common motif, not because of the lyrics, but because of the music. So in short, hip hop should probably not be considered a form of poetry because like most music, it is dependent on the actual sound backing it up.


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## TL Murphy (Apr 13, 2020)

Of course it's poetry.  Of course it's music.  What's the problem?


Poetry is poetry because it isn't music.  Add music to the poetry, it's music. Take the music out of the song, it's poetry.


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## Jp (May 20, 2020)

This is a fantastic thread. As Darren said, it is really a discussion of if music without the music is poetry. I would say yes, but with some qualifications first. Let's take the first page of any Steven King novel and put line spaces in the prose and see if that is a poem. The answer should be no. Line breaks does not make the poem. There might be prose that one could break just right and make a poem, but perhaps that just speaks to the author rather than random chance that his/her writing could do this. Same too should be true of music, some lyricists might not need to write music lyrics, for some reason, that could be considered poetry. No one would argue that an old ballad song literally written as poetic ballad is not both poem and music. So some music clearly is poetry. Now is all poetry good? Well, any fan of the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy would know that the worst poetry in the world is written by Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings:_"The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
__They lay. They rotted. They turned 
__Around occasionally. 
__Bits of flesh dropped off them from
__Time to time.:And sank into the pool's mire.
__They also smelt a great deal."_​*Short excerpt taken from one of Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings poems.  - *I cannot cite the exact poem as I am not brave enough to know such works. lol
​
So now, we have have established that not all poetry is good poetry. So too it should also hold true that not all music is going to be good poetry, and some music will be more or less like prose with line breaks added. I am feeling lazy right now and I do not want to post good hip hop that does not simply reflect the feelings that some people who've posted have said, drugs, guns, violence, etc.

But let's just say that if you think that hip hop is just that than you have been tricked by the very same people that changed that form of music for commercialism. Tell me that Belief by Accent not poetic.  If you do enjoy hip hop check out Benefit, who in 1999 Benefit created the album B.E.N.E.F.I.T using a $5 microphone and $12 sound card. The industry owes him a lot, to which he has not been give rightful credit.

Oh, the bands Tool and APC come to mind. Maynard haunts my dreams with his vocals and lyrics.


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## bdcharles (May 20, 2020)

Jp said:


> Maynard haunts my dreams with his vocals and lyrics.



Huh. He does the same to mine too, sometimes. I even have a short story in the works based on a dream in which the music of Tool was of great significance.


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## Jp (May 20, 2020)

bdcharles said:


> Huh. He does the same to mine too, sometimes. I even have a short story in the works based on a dream in which the music of Tool was of great significance.



Here is a hard one, what is your favorite song of theirs? Picking a favorite is almost like being a traitor to their other songs, but If I had to pick a favorite it would be Lateralus due to all its ties to their other works.


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## bdcharles (May 20, 2020)

Jp said:


> Here is a hard one, what is your favorite song of theirs? Picking a favorite is almost like being a traitor to their other songs, but If I had to pick a favorite it would be Lateralus due to all its ties to their other works.



Ooh, I think for me it's a close tie between _10000 Days (Wings Pt. 2)_ for the lyrics and emotive content and _Jambi _for lyrics and general cool ass rockingness. _Rosetta Stoned_ is a close second. Oh, and then there's F_orty-Six and Two_, and _Right in Two_ and my God it's hard to choose just one. I guess I'd say _Wings Part 2_. That line that goes, It's time now, my time now! Give me my wings! F&*^ing chills even thinking about it. I'm gonna listen to it now.

EDIT: add _Vicarious _to that list. And _Parabol / Parabola_. And _Stinkfist_.


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## Sycamore (May 24, 2020)

aj47 said:


> I don't want to incendiate anything, but many of the same things were said of rock and other musical genres before they were mainstreamed. (And for the record, guns, misogyny, etc. are ... out there in the wild and people's songs reflect that -- in any genre ... some of the nastiest lyrics are found in traditional folk songs.)



Yeah, ever heard Knoxville Girl by The Louvin Brothers? It's some vile stuff. 

Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cchLeI9VSEQ


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## TL Murphy (May 31, 2020)

DP, the original question never mentioned _good poetry_. That is subjective of course though some might argue that there is such a thing as objectively great poetry, but that's a different discussion. Of course it boils down to "What is poetry?" All we can say is poetry is not prose but sometimes prose is poetry. That's not a very satisfying definition. But if we say that "poetry is the best words said in the best way" then most lyrics could be considered poetry. Good poetry? Who knows? Who cares? One thing at a time.


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