# How much do you plan before writing?



## OurJud (Jun 21, 2013)

I'm going to try and make this the last thread I start for a day or so, before I get a reputation for asking too many question. I'll spend that time trying to contribute to other threads instead.

I'm quite an impatient person by nature (and yes I realise that doesn't bode well for someone who likes to write creatively) and more often than not I will begin writing when all I have is an idea or theme. Inevitably this leads to nothing but frustration as I quickly realise I have no idea what the story itself is.

I know there are some who can do this - start with a simple idea then sit down and develop the story as they write, but as much as I want to be able to do this, I think I have to accept I can't.

I would be interested to hear how others approach their new projects; meticulous planning or make it up as you go along?


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## The Jaded (Jun 21, 2013)

Generally, for me it's no planning at all. I tend to start cold, without even knowing in my head where things are going. But I've never finished a written project over 30k words, so it shows. 

I think to write a full novel you need some idea of what will happen, some general concept of each main character. The plan may change, but it can keep you focused.


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## Robert_S (Jun 21, 2013)

I'll outline in scrivener and start filling in.


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## popsprocket (Jun 21, 2013)

I plan for weeks.

Months in the case of things that I can't work out. 

Longer still for things that I know I can't do justice on the page just yet.

It starts with an idea in the form of anything: a theme, character, (partial) scene, a vibe, a relationship, a powerful emotion... etc, you get the picture. Then I get out my trusty idea notebook and I write it down. After writing something down once it's pretty much cemented in my brain. Then I let it simmer. For however long. The idea develops and blooms and branches out until it comes close to a full plot with characters and all. From there it differs, but you can bet I'll have 1+ pages of plot synopsis and then half a dozen pages of general notes and additional ideas (usually for scenes). That gets to simmer for a while too. I read and reread it and make changes that occur to me.

After all that (more than a week usually), I write a scene list. 100k word novel is about ~30 scenes with how my chapter structure works. So I know what to shoot for in terms of quantity of scenes. Don't get me wrong, I don't push my ideas through a cookie cutter so that they come out at novel-length, I use this as a general idea of how much attention different parts of the story need to be given.

Once I have my scene list I'll usually turn out three drafts. That includes modifying scenes, adding/removing scenes, and any general revisions. Then I start writing.

Of course, the best plans mean nothing as soon as the pen starts flying, but having a scene list helps me keep what I'm writing focused on the damn point and stops it from fizzling out or running off down some boring path through the woods. If I'm completely honest, my scene lists are usually only 50% accurate in terms of the final product. The scene  ideas that I was most proud of usually end up in there unadulterated, but the rest just appears however it needs to.


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## Skodt (Jun 22, 2013)

Very little. I write and plan at the same time usually.


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## philistine (Jun 22, 2013)

My first and current novel was being planned and/or written in some form or another for over twelve months. I wrote a first version from the initial, very lengthy outline, which got to about fifteen-thousand words before I scrapped it. I then restructured the entire thing, keeping much of the original outline, and started afresh. I got a few thousand words in before scrapping it again, as it was less successful than the first version.

Finally, about two months back, I changed my original idea quite majorly, and began work on a third version. I'm now well over twenty-thousand words in and I can say with as much surety as possible that I'm going to finish it to the end. During this third version, I've found that in many cases all I'll do is think of a few things I want to happen, and then peel off one to two-thousand words quite effortlessly. However, I don't think that would have been possible without the previous 'layers', as it were, of previous meticulous planning. 

I suppose my method- for this novel at least- could be compared to an oil painting: lots of thin layers, adding and subtracting forms in order to get it 'just right', and finally building up to that top level of near-completion, where it all seems to come together. 

I can say one thing for sure- I'm definitely not as great an advocate of detailed planning than I was, say, six months ago. I don't think I'll ever be a member of the 'seat of your pants' camp, where any kind of outlining is seen as a taboo subject and the writer simply throws down onto paper the first things which come to their mind- though whatever works for them, I guess.

To answer the question: I plan adequately.


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## Sam (Jun 22, 2013)

I don't plan at all.


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## Jeko (Jun 22, 2013)

I draft, but I don't plan. Nor do I world-build or hold random conversations with my characters in my head. When I write a scene I think about where I want it to go, and when I write it it usually goes somewhere else anyway, but the thinking process helps me be more focused and determined as I write. I call that pre-meditation, not planning.


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## JosephB (Jun 22, 2013)

OurJud said:


> I would be interested to hear how others approach  their new projects; meticulous planning or make it up as you go  along?



There is a huge gray area between meticulous planning and making it up as you go along. I've tried both -- and ended up somewhere in the middle. I won't bore you with the details. So I'd say if not planning isn't working, then I'd probably try planning. I'd increase the detail of the plan as needed to the point where I started make progress. This is otherwise known as trial and error -- that's how most people arrive at a working method that will allow them to get things done.


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## shadowwalker (Jun 22, 2013)

I don't plan. An idea or a character - that's what I start with. Only one story I haven't finished - and that's the one with an outline.



philistine said:


> I don't think I'll ever be a member of the 'seat of your pants' camp, where any kind of outlining is seen as a taboo subject and the writer simply throws down onto paper the first things which come to their mind- though whatever works for them, I guess.



Not all of us just throw stuff down on paper - nor are they the first things we think of. It can mean dealing with the "present" in the story, and possible consequences of what happens, then choosing which consequence we prefer, then moving to the next part of the story. It's not necessarily a synonym for "willy-nilly"


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## wancow (Jun 22, 2013)

I start with an idea.  I'll think on it for a time, imagine a story and the people in it.  Eventually I'll start writing it.  When I write, I have to be in that place where I'm experiencing the things that are happening as they go onto the page.  If I don't, it's always crap.  When I do, I get into a zone and keep going and going and going.


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## Sam (Jun 22, 2013)

[ot]Some people have serious misconceptions about seat-of-the-pants writing. If I'm writing a thriller, for instance, I don't suddenly have an alien overlord or two-headed monster enter the scene. Everything takes place within the realm of the world I've created. I know my characters, I know my general setting, and I have a vague idea of where it might go. The only thing a planner does differently is that s/he knows the general outline of each chapter. I don't, but that doesn't mean my chapters will be all over the place. It's a rather silly assumption to make, if I'm being quite honest.[/ot]


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## dale (Jun 22, 2013)

i don't plan much. i have a vague idea what's happening from chapter to chapter. i didn't know how my novel was going to end until i was past 3/4 done with it.i don't think i could write with an outline. but i've heard others say they couldn't write without one. so it depends on you.


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## JosephB (Jun 22, 2013)

Sam said:


> Some people have serious misconceptions about  seat-of-the-pants writing.



Yeah -- it's not how I work, but it's always amusing to see people jump to weird conclusions about not outlining or planing -- like it's just some random process of crapping things out onto the page. I often write short stories with nothing more than a idea and a character or two, like shadowalker says -- but I needed more structure when writing my novel -- I think it's because I write kind of sporadically depending on life circumstances. It made it easier for me to duck in and out of it. Still, there was plenty that just came to me as I was writing -- so I totally get how it can work.


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## OurJud (Jun 22, 2013)

wancow said:


> I start with an idea. I'll think on it for a time, imagine a story and the people in it. Eventually I'll start writing it. When I write, I have to be in that place where I'm experiencing the things that are happening as they go onto the page. If I don't, it's always crap. When I do, I get into a zone and keep going and going and going.





dale said:


> i don't plan much. i have a vague idea what's happening from chapter to chapter. i didn't know how my novel was going to end until i was past 3/4 done with it.i don't think i could write with an outline. but i've heard others say they couldn't write without one. so it depends on you.



These two methods sound fairly close to mine, but as JoesphB suggests I may have to rethink as I've so far had very little personal success. My problem as already mentioned is patience, or lack of. I think if I planned something for months on end I'd be so fed up with my characters and events I'd have no enthusiasm left to start writing. I always feel when I get an idea, that I have to write while the desire takes me.


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## philistine (Jun 22, 2013)

shadowwalker said:


> Not all of us just throw stuff down on paper - nor are they the first things we think of. It can mean dealing with the "present" in the story, and possible consequences of what happens, then choosing which consequence we prefer, then moving to the next part of the story. It's not necessarily a synonym for "willy-nilly"



Fly by the seat of one's pants: 

*1) improvise a course of action without a predetermined plan

2) To follow one's instinct*

It'd be absurd to for me to categorically say that everyone who writes this way just inserts things arbitrarily, though it's really not very far from doing just that. And, strictly speaking, if one considers a scene mentally before typing that first word, they're not really writing by the seat of their pants- they're writing with a goal in mind, albeit a quasi-abstract one. It's a form of planning nonetheless. 

Based upon the above definitions (if you disagree, then the term 'pantsing', as it seems to be known, becomes a complete misnomer), writing by the seat of your pants would be writing the first thing which comes into your head. The Heathrow Airport of one's creative culvert, if you will. 

I don't want to start a planning versus pantsing discussion, so I'll leave it at that.


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## J Anfinson (Jun 22, 2013)

I haven't gotten very far on my novel, but I can offer how I approach short stories. For me, the crisis or ridiculous situation comes to mind first. Then a character begins to form. After I take a day or two to let those two elements brew in my head, I'll have a basic idea how the story unfolds, and possibly how it ends, though not always. I'll have my beginning, middle, and end pretty much figured out, and then I'll start writing. Sometimes the story turns out exactly how I expected, and sometimes even I'll end up surprised where it ends up, but that's what works for me. In writing a novel, so far as I can tell, it's sort of difficult because the gaps between the beginning, middle, and end are so much larger than with a short story, so it may take laying out a few more stepping stones. Hope something I said helps, even if only in a small way.


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## Abigail (Jun 22, 2013)

I write all the time. But it's just random and unplanned stuff. I am, however, about to start a definite project. Since randomly writing bits and pieces of things hasn't gotten me very far, I've decided I need a more clear idea before I begin writing. So no, in the past I have not planned much, but (this sounds a little funny) I do plan to plan more before I write. I personally think planning isn't necessary for everyone, but can be helpful. There's no right or wrong way to do it either. Don't stress out if you just want to write aimlessely without a plan...I totally get the impatient thing!


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## OurJud (Jun 22, 2013)

J Anfinson said:


> Hope something I said helps, even if only in a small way.



Very much so! I've taken on a novel a couple of times. The best I managed was 30,000 + words of utter tosh. I don't think I have a clear enough head for a novel, let alone the talent, so short story advice is great as they're my current target.



Abigail said:


> There's no right or wrong way to do it either. Don't stress out if you just want to write aimlessely without a plan...I totally get the impatient thing!



Thanks, Abigail, it really helps when you hear/read of others with similar hang-ups and problems.

I'd like to thank everyone individually if I could, but that's just not practical, is it? Rest assured my thanks go out to all who reply.


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## squidtender (Jun 22, 2013)

If you find that how you're doing it isn't working, I suggest taking it slow. Start with figuring out your milestones: opening, inciting incident, plot points, midpoint, pinch points and resolution. You can answer all of those on a single piece of paper and it will at least give you a basic map of how to travel through your story.


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## shadowwalker (Jun 22, 2013)

philistine said:


> It's a form of planning nonetheless.



A very very very limited sort of planning - like seeing a side road as you're driving and deciding, based on the scenery, whether to turn off or not. I just wanted to note that 'pantsing' is not just random chaotic writing. If the lack of total chaos needs to be interpreted as "planning" for some reason, so be it.


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## Dictarium (Jun 22, 2013)

None at all. I know it in my head. If I need to plan all of this out before I go and have a written reference so I can remember everything, how do I expect my readers to remember it all?


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## Leyline (Jun 22, 2013)

It varies. Sometimes the entire thing is just there, on waking, like a gift. Sometimes it's a first line. Sometimes it's an ending. Sometimes a scene somewhere in the middle. Sometimes someone just starts talking in my head.

And sometimes it's nothing. I am not, and never have been, intimidated by a blank page. It's a pretty girl smiling at me from across the room. It's the briar patch, and I'm begging you Br'er Fox, please don't throw me in that briar patch!


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## luckyscars (Jun 23, 2013)

I've tried both and I'm now into planning. But of course there are different *kinds* of planning and it is important to understand the differences before accepting advice on the topic.

Some people are meticulous enough to plan out EVERY scene. They do all kinds of things - storyboard, write bios, draw weird flow charts, diagrams, production notes - all kinds of crazy stuff. To me that isn't planning so much as organizing. What those people are doing are essentially building a huge scaffold on which every ounce of brick and mortar can be precisely set down.

Then there is the 'middle ground' writer who formulates a basic plan and then begins to write. The plot may deviate a good amount from the plan over the course of the following drafts and, indeed, end up very different to what was first written. What there is of a plan is sufficiently moveable as to allow complete freedom to modify just about any detail as the book progresses, which is particularly useful if you tend to come up with ideas you want to include 'on the fly'. The planning that is done can be in various forms. For me, I like to write a basic summary of the book from beginning to end, usually not more than a page or so. I may or may not include a chapter breakdown, but if I do it will probably not be followed all that strictly.

Finally there is the 'seat of the pants' guy who essentially plans on a chapter by chapter basis. Most of the people I know who write this way and do so successfully do actually have an in depth knowledge of their story beforehand and generally know the key plot points, so it isn't generally a case of sitting down and letting rip. There takes a certain kind of discipline to write this way. You can't just, as Sam said, bring in the last minute dinosaur or space alien around chapter five, at least not without knowing what you're going to do with such an inclusion. 

One thing I've noticed is that regardless of what kind of approach one takes, there is basically the same amount of work involved in successfully executing all of them. Regardless of how much a story is 'planned', you will need to organize everything eventually to achieve something seamless and of quality. 'The organizer' may do most of the hard part before even writing a single word, and the actual process may run smoother, but ultimately they still have to write the thing and the amount of work that goes into actually preparing to write is probably going to be similar in arduousness to what the 'seat of the pants' writer will face at the end of their first draft. Really its all about preference. Some people just want to get stuck into the writing part and are not intimidated by a lack of prior planning. Others are. I can see and understand both perspectives on that.


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## OurJud (Jun 23, 2013)

Dictarium said:


> None at all. I know it in my head. If I need to plan all of this out before I go and have a written reference so I can remember everything, how do I expect my readers to remember it all?



Eh? I don't get that logic at all. What does your planning have to do with their remembering of the finished story?



squidtender said:


> If you find that how you're doing it isn't  working, I suggest taking it slow. Start with figuring out your  milestones: opening, inciting incident, plot points, midpoint, pinch  points and resolution. You can answer all of those on a single piece of  paper and it will at least give you a basic map of how to travel through  your story.



Yes, I think this is what I need to be doing. I think if I'm honest it's more to do with my impatience than anything else. Planning tends to wear my brain out and sap my enthusiasm for the story, which is why I avoid it. Mind you, having said that, if I write without planning I still end up drained of enthusiasm because of all the dead end roads I end up on.

I find it very hard sometimes to resist telling myself I'm simply not cut out for writing. I find the whole thing an infuriating process and yet I'm cursed with an absolute, unquestioning need to do it.


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## SarahStrange (Jun 23, 2013)

It starts with hearing or reading something. With the story I am working on now I heard the line 'letters from the sky' in a song. I jotted it down in my journal and three scenes (the beginning, middle and end) popped in my head for the book with that title.

Now I just fill in the rest. I do this mostly by following my main character. I think, 'what would she do?' and I write that. 

Method shmethod  :topsy_turvy:  I think the most important thing is to just write and not get bogged down in how you're _going_ to write. If I spent ages planning I'd never get a word down. Everything is relative though, so this might only work for me.


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## Dictarium (Jun 23, 2013)

A reader is expected (for the most part) to remember many, many details about a universe as they read without rereading. If I, an authority on my universe, can't remember them as I go then it's probably too complicated for the reader to remember.


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## Robert_S (Jun 23, 2013)

Let me expand on my statement. I am limited to 120 pgs. Any larger and it get tossed without a thought, so planning is essential.

I start with a rough outline:



Dante becomes the human Ro'shaan, receives the memories of 10 Ro'shaan who have gone before and saves the human race from a hostile alien threat.
Corporate American schemes to acquire the tech within him and BES and the tech of his ship.
Dante culls (kills) the schemers. Saves the human race from extermination by Concord.
Dante (now, fully transitioned) and BES renew their bond.

Then expand on that:



The Earth is approached by the Okahni Prime.
BES discovers, finds recipients for implant.
Dante survives the process.
Dante and BES destroy the Prime.
Dante introduces himself, BES and the Concord to humans.
Powerful corporate leaders seek to acquire the advanced tech.
They can't buy it, so they seek to steal it.
They begin a campaign of inciting dissent against Ro'shaan Dante, BES and the Concord.
Use "Dawn of the Machines" conspiracy fears.
Suggest Dante is mind controlled.
Use fear of aliens.
Pay Alex Jones types to suggest Dante, BES and the Concord attacked Earth, not Okahni.
Use their political clout to get national govts to declare Dante, BES and Concord a national security risk.

Political leaders create projects to kill Ro'shaan Dante and BES and commandeer the ship (by now, called "The Atlas" ).

etc, etc, etc.

It's an ongoing process of expanding on what I've outlined earlier until almost the entire story is written in outline form. One screen writer says he creates 40pg outlines based on scenes. Sounds reasonable. He leaves out dialog and details of the description.


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## voltigeur (Jun 24, 2013)

I have been doing meticulous planning since I am working on a historical novel that spans the globe, has 4 major story lines that intersect and has to follow a set time line.  I could not think of another way to do it without a detailed out line story boarding and still researching. 

The story line changed 3 times and if I follow through on the original idea it will be 3 books not one. 

If I was writing a story that didn’t require the research and staying in line with facts I would write before I lost the inspiration.


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## JoltedDescendant (Jun 24, 2013)

I planned for 2 months prior to even opening the word document. The way I plan is that I open a fresh PowerPoint and treat it as if it were a timeline to organize from start to finish (so I would be able to weave my ideas strongly). I also made sure I included why I wrote 'this' way or 'that' way so I'd remember while I was writing.

I ended up finishing with 16,800 words (approximately). Now, I'm just proofreading and editing with peers.

Note: Those two months of planning were tortuous because I had hard classes and it was all painful for me to endure. ;o;


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## HooktonFonnix (Jun 24, 2013)

Things tend to go badly when I plan. The less I outline, the more organic my story feels. I felt like I was shoving my characters into situations that weren't unfolding naturally. Because it was in the outline, I *had* to put it in there sort of thing. I find that if I know where I'm starting from and I have an idea of where I'm going, the story comes more naturally. Not for everyone, but that's what makes writing fun.


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## Sintalion (Jun 24, 2013)

Personally, I am comfortable planning with less text than fits on a grocery list sheet. Whenever I've planned stories in detail, I get caught up and eventually drop it. So for me, having an idea of where I'm going is all I need (usually 3-5 events that propel the story). I'll fill in the rest along the way until I get to where I need to be (and that is how I got to my current manuscript of 94k). That way as I write, I'm not fighting with myself over changes I may find myself wanting to make. It's easier for me to change four words than an entire chapter I planned and got a chance to like. I don't even make chapters in advance though. I determine them at the end. 

Example:
Genetic test --> Kidnap --> Rejection --> Murder --> Queen

That's just me though.


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## Robdemanc (Jun 24, 2013)

With me the idea grows in my head until my main character is real enough to start writing about.  Then I write.  The first draft is my discovery of what happens, then the next drafts are the real work.  

Once I wrote a synopsis and then a chapter breakdown on two sheets of paper.  I found that was enough planning and just started writing.  I think both can work, but too much planning means you are not writing.


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## Dictarium (Jun 24, 2013)

squidtender said:


> If you find that how you're doing it isn't working, I suggest taking it slow. Start with figuring out your milestones: opening, inciting incident, plot points, midpoint, pinch points and resolution. You can answer all of those on a single piece of paper and it will at least give you a basic map of how to travel through your story.


Meh. I don't like knowing how it's going to end before I write it. That takes all the fun out of it. Half the fun of reading is finding out the ending; why take that fun out of writing?


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## shadowwalker (Jun 24, 2013)

Dictarium said:


> Meh. I don't like knowing how it's going to end before I write it. That takes all the fun out of it. Half the fun of reading is finding out the ending; why take that fun out of writing?



Oh definitely agree! I love getting to the end of my stories so I know what happened. :triumphant:


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## BryanJ62 (Jun 26, 2013)

Once I am sold on the idea I sit down and interview the characters. I take the main characters of the story, a notebook, my favorite pen and away I go. Each character tells me where they are in their life when the story begins. They tell me their fears, their hopes, their dreams and by the time I am finished I know them. I feel we are friends, although a few can be distant. From there I do a an outline per scene. It's one sentence of description and no more. I do an entire page until it's full. From there I take that sentence and began writing a longer version and that becomes part of the book. Outlining has helped me a lot. It allows me to see trouble spots in the story and correct them early.


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## zerophase (Jul 1, 2013)

Usually, when I write I have a vague skeleton with some major plot points I have to hit.  This tends to be the premise / beginning and the ending, with maybe a few details tossed here and there between.  As I sit down to actually write I fill in the story, while trying to make events flow as naturally as possible from each other as possible.  After I have written the first draft I usually go back and reword things for style and make all of the decisions by characters seem as believable as possible.  At the same time, I don't worry too much about sentence flow for scenery.  (Everything I write I end up adapting for an interactive medium.  So, some of the details are shown rather than explicitly stated.)


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## Origen (Jul 3, 2013)

I just dash in quickly and throw a whole bunch of gasoline over the house and hope I can burn it down with a single light.


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## BryanJ62 (Jul 3, 2013)

_*


Origen said:



			I just dash in quickly and throw a whole bunch of gasoline over the house and hope I can burn it down with a single light.
		
Click to expand...

*_
Right on!!!!


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## Kehawin (Jul 3, 2013)

Well, considering I am not a published writer (yet), it's hard to say what "works" for me.  But, in the past, I would sit down when an inspiration hit and start writing.  Unfortunately, I am really, really good at coming up with "premise" but not plot points, so more times than I like to admit things stalled.

With the book that almost was, it was a dream.  The dream had a beginning, middle, and end - so I had my plot.  I had to play around with it since the dream wouldn't be realistic in this era, so I did some research on the era that seemed to fit with the plot best, and had my scenario.  From there I made it up as I went along - but since it was a complete dream, it wasn't totally by the seat of my pants.

For my current book, it's much more complicated.  The inspiration came from a dream, but the dream came from philosophical wonderings I had had since High School.  When I realized the two meshed, I realized that another dream I had had many years ago meshed as well, so I combined the three.  However, that only gave me the premise, the setting, and the "how" of those.  Adding in some other interests/hobbies, I started formulating a plot...  And then the research began, because the book is essentially speculative fiction at its core.

It's very hard for me to "plan" too much, because it hinders my creativity (IMO).  But I have found, with this current project, that the drive to create it has remained throughout all the planning of it.  I do not write outlines for my fiction, but I most certainly do for non-fiction.  But I have found through trial and error that making character profiles is immensely helpful to me.  (Basically a chart in non-chart form, one character per page, with whatever is pertinent to the story.  Name, age, physical features of course, but other things like date of birth - I find it helpful to read astrology books for characterization   and "biggest phobia" and "type of humor" and "what s/he does when under stress" and "how s/he views their role among their peers" or stuff like that).  I don't plan ahead for chapters - I admit that I sometimes close the chapter because I can't work out a transition to the next scene.

So, all in all, I think each writer is different, and each project is different.  Like was said before, if one thing isn't working, try something different!  Keeping the motivation alive is the hardest part no matter what - and to me it's kind of like a relationship.  Sometimes you get sick of your loved ones, even though you still love them, and you just have to wait it out or find a way to get over whatever bothers you - either by infusing some fun, or taking a break, or whatever works.


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