# Plagiarism or parody?



## Phoenix Raven (Oct 12, 2014)

While working on my second novel I have an idea that I think will add some light hearted humor to my story. However it involves using a small reference to a popular Monty Python bit from The Holy Grail. I have seen many stories, movies and TV shows use references to other well known stories over the years. For example the endless pop culture references in Buffy the Vampire slayer, not to mention the endless parodies of Star Trek and Star wars on other shows. 

So my question is, what makes one reference parody or an homage to a preexisting work over plagiarism of a preexisting work? I know you can't take something word for word, which I would never do, but a basic idea and putting it in my own words in my own story. Is this acceptable or is is plagiarism?

And advice will be useful and appreciated.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Oct 12, 2014)

Phoenix Raven said:


> While working on my second novel I have an idea that I think will add some light hearted humor to my story. However it involves using a small reference to a popular Monty Python bit from The Holy Grail. I have seen many stories, movies and TV shows use references to other well known stories over the years. For example the endless pop culture references in Buffy the Vampire slayer, not to mention the endless parodies of Star Trek and Star wars on other shows.
> 
> So my question is, what makes one reference parody or an homage to a preexisting work over plagiarism of a preexisting work? I know you can't take something word for word, which I would never do, but a basic idea and putting it in my own words in my own story. Is this acceptable or is is plagiarism?
> 
> And advice will be useful and appreciated.



Funny you mentioned the Holy Grail, Phoenix. I just wrote a reference to the movie in my WIP. I also have a couple other pop culture references in the WIP. I certainly intend my bits to be of a homage/parody variety. We do have a couple lawyers on here that could help with your question but I don't think a general reference would make you liable. For one thing, I think that parody is covered under Fair Use rules so I'm guessing that you will be okay.


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## Morkonan (Oct 12, 2014)

Phoenix Raven said:


> ...So my question is, what makes one reference parody or an homage to a preexisting work over plagiarism of a preexisting work? I know you can't take something word for word, which I would never do, but a basic idea and putting it in my own words in my own story. Is this acceptable or is is plagiarism?
> 
> And advice will be useful and appreciated.



A Pop Culture reference isn't, necessarily, plagiarism - You're not attempting to call the work your own. One also can't copyright an "idea", so you have no worries, there.

Not long ago, I read a story that had references to Monty Python's "Holy Grail" movie. "Run Away" and "We don't have a Holy Hand-grenade" (or something similar) were in there as "in-jokes" and weren't directly attributed.


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## Phoenix Raven (Oct 12, 2014)

mrmustard615 said:


> Funny you mentioned the Holy Grail, Phoenix. I just wrote a reference to the movie in my WIP. I also have a couple other pop culture references in the WIP. I certainly intend my bits to be of a homage/parody variety. We do have a couple lawyers on here that could help with your question but I don't think a general reference would make you liable. For one thing, I think that parody is covered under Fair Use rules so I'm guessing that you will be okay.


Thanks, I sure hope your right. The last thing I want is to go though a sort of Spanish inquisition.


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## Phoenix Raven (Oct 12, 2014)

Morkonan said:


> A Pop Culture reference isn't, necessarily, plagiarism - You're not attempting to call the work your own. One also can't copyright an "idea", so you have no worries, there.
> 
> Not long ago, I read a story that had references to Monty Python's "Holy Grail" movie. "Run Away" and "We don't have a Holy Hand-grenade" (or something similar) were in there as "in-jokes" and weren't directly attributed.



Looking up the definition of *Plagiarism-an act or instance of using or closely imitating the language and thoughts of another author with out authorization and there presentation of that author's work as one's own, as by not crediting the original author.*

So should I put something in the credits of my novel? Obviously my novel is my own work and so I'll call it my own in general, but if asked I'll always tell people if I got any idea for a joke from something or someone else. The last think I would want is to be sued by some of my favorite childhood idols.


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## Morkonan (Oct 12, 2014)

Phoenix Raven said:


> ...So should I put something in the credits of my novel? Obviously my novel is my own work and so I'll call it my own in general, but if asked I'll always tell people if I got any idea for a joke from something or someone else. The last think I would want is to be sued by some of my favorite childhood idols.



I don't really understand what it is that you're doing. All I can say is that if you are mimicking or parodying an "idea", you won't have any problems. If you're using lines from a skit or a movie, you might. If you're clearly pointing out that you're parodying those lines, you likely won't. But, I'm not a legal expert.


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## Jeko (Oct 12, 2014)

IMO, a homage or parody focuses on the work being adapted, either through praise or criticism, while plagiarism tries to avoid it in order to cover the author's tracks. So as long as you're not trying to hide whatever you've borrowed, it's as much a matter of delivery as any other aspect of your story.


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## Phoenix Raven (Oct 12, 2014)

Here is an excerpt from the chapter. I think it's fairly obvious that I'm playing on a scene from Monty Pythons Holy Grail, but nothing is word for word, Just the basic insanity of the scene and backwards logic is what I really wanted. Tell me if you think it's to similar or not. I really just though it was a fun and silly scene.

It was not long before Scout reached the torchlight clearing where Nuri and Grimly were located. She saw Nuri unconscious on the ground with a tall boy holding a large club standing over her. The strange children clad in goblin armor were lowering the net that had ensnared Grimly. She had been trying desperately to reason with the children, but they were convinced that Nuri was an evil witch who had been capturing or killing their friends.

“You all saw this woman cast a spell on that girl didn’t you? She turned her into a goblin, and then back into a girl again. I’m sure she is a witch, witches eat children. That’s what my mother always told me. We need to kill her before she makes a meal of us all,” said the tall boy with the large club.

Scout readied her longbow and stepped out into the clearing, "step away from her," she shouted.

The children closest to Nuri stepped away except for the tall boy with the club. "Are you a witch too? You must be if your protecting this evil witch on the ground. I won’t let you make a meal of us. I'll smash your friends head open before your arrow leaves your bow," The boy shouted sternly.

The other children helped Grimly free from the net. They assumed she was just another orphaned child like the rest of them. Grimly made her way towards the tall boy with the club, "I don’t think she’s a witch," Grimly whispered. "Witches float in water but I have seen her sink like a stone in the lake beyond the trees."

The boy looked puzzled, "how do you know witches float in water? You're not a witch too are you?"

"Oh no sir, I'm just a child like you, but my mommy told me how to tell a witch from a normal person when I was little. She said that the best way to kill a witch is to burn her. So i asked, why do witches burn? And she said because they are made of wood, and you know that wood floats on water. If you want to be sure she's a with you need to throw her in water. You don’t want to kill some lady that is not a witch.

The boy looked even more confused than he had been as he decided what to do, Grimly planted a seed of doubt in his head. He had never taken a life before, and did not want to start by killing an innocent person, but he felt responsible for protecting the other children. They all looked up to him as their leader.

Scout slowly lowered her bow as she watched Grimly whispering to the boy. She knew Grimly would not let anything bad happen to her big sister.

“I can’t just let her go,” shouted the boy. “We need to be sure she’s not a witch. You may come with us to the lake and see for yourself.”

“The lake? Why? What are you going to do to my friend at the lake?” Scout shouted.

“We need to see if she floats. If she sinks to the bottom we’ll know she’s not a witch, but if she floats we will need to burn her,” Shouted the boy.

Scout could hardly believe her ears. The insanity the boy was shouting was too much for her. She was about to raise her bow when she heard Grimly’s voice inside her head, “Please trust me. I’ll keep Nuri safe. We can’t hurt them, they are just children.”


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## Phoenix Raven (Oct 12, 2014)

Of course this is just a rough draft of this scene. I'll probably edit it alot for the final version. but I think it gets my idea across.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Oct 12, 2014)

I do see the parallel to the scene you're talking about (and a very funny scene in fact). Like the others I'm not one of the lawyers here but I don't think you'd be in any trouble.

Now if you had one of the boys say that she turned him into a newt.... :lol:


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## Morkonan (Oct 12, 2014)

Phoenix Raven said:


> Of course this is just a rough draft of this scene. I'll probably edit it alot for the final version. but I think it gets my idea across.



This isn't plagiarism - It's historic fact. Monty Python didn't make up "witches float in water."

Most of the "regulated" and highly choreographed "witch tests" came from here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malleus_Maleficarum

An article of some crazy things people thought to "test": http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/7-bizarre-witch-trial-tests

So, you're not really plagiarizing anything within your scene, you're simply following _historical precedent_, much like Monty Python did. The one exception is being made of "wood." As you can see, it was originally thought witches would float because the water would reject them. If you're going for comedy, you'd choose "wood", right? That's what MP did. If you're going for historical accuracy, you'd choose the belief that witches would be rejected by the purity of water.

That's your one sticking-point - Wood. If you changed that, then there would be nothing there that could be pointed out as originating with MP. But, if you want a tongue-in-cheek homage, it's fine.


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## hvysmker (Oct 12, 2014)

I don't anticipate any problems on writing sites. What you'd have to worry about is a future publisher's opinion, and he/she would be much more knowledgeable on the subject.  If the subject isn't an important issue in your story, you'd only have to change it, which shouldn't be too hard.

Charlie


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## Phoenix Raven (Oct 12, 2014)

Thanks for the feedback guys. I self publish my books so i don't have a publisher to bounce questions off of. After reading this over I should be okay. It's not like I used the "she turned me into a newt." line, though i was tempted. LOL


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## T.S.Bowman (Oct 13, 2014)

Cadence said:


> IMO, a homage or parody focuses on the work being adapted, either through praise or criticism, while plagiarism tries to avoid it in order to cover the author's tracks. So as long as you're not trying to hide whatever you've borrowed, it's as much a matter of delivery as any other aspect of your story.



So let me make sure I have the jist here.

I have a lot of "inner dialogue" in my novel. It's just the way I communicate to the resader how the MC is thinking.

So, if at some point he and his friends run into a creature or something and his thought process goes like this....

[So what are we supposed to do now?]

_(I don't know. We sure could use a Holy Hand Grenade right about now.)

_That would be ok??

Now that I think about it a bit...being me, I would probably even go so far as to have the MC say something like...

[Seriously? A Monty Python reference? Now?]


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## Sam (Oct 13, 2014)

Phoenix Raven said:


> While working on my second novel I have an idea that I think will add some light hearted humor to my story. However it involves using a small reference to a popular Monty Python bit from The Holy Grail. I have seen many stories, movies and TV shows use references to other well known stories over the years. For example the endless pop culture references in Buffy the Vampire slayer, not to mention the endless parodies of Star Trek and Star wars on other shows.
> 
> So my question is, what makes one reference parody or an homage to a preexisting work over plagiarism of a preexisting work? I know you can't take something word for word, which I would never do, but a basic idea and putting it in my own words in my own story. Is this acceptable or is is plagiarism?
> 
> And advice will be useful and appreciated.



Plagiarism is copying text verbatim and passing it off as your own. 

You *cannot* plagiarise an idea.


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## Jeko (Oct 13, 2014)

> So, if at some point he and his friends run into a creature or something and his thought process goes like this....
> 
> [So what are we supposed to do now?]
> 
> _(I don't know. We sure could use a Holy Hand Grenade right about now.)_



Definitely; you're drawing attention to a work that has existed before. It wouldn't be alright if you tried to put a Holy Hand Grenade in your story and treat it seriously as your own invention. Though I still wouldn't call that 'plagiarism' - it's just overt theft.


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## T.S.Bowman (Oct 13, 2014)

Cadence said:


> Definitely; you're drawing attention to a work that has existed before. It wouldn't be alright if you tried to put a Holy Hand Grenade in your story and treat it seriously as your own invention. Though I still wouldn't call that 'plagiarism' - it's just overt theft.



Cool. I was curious because I have a couple of little references like that scattered around. Most people wouldn't know some of them, but there may be a few who would pick up on it. 

I just wanted to make sure I was in the clear with that kind of thing. ;-)

Thanks.


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## count58 (Oct 13, 2014)

Plagiarism is unauthorized copying of other writer's work and claiming it as your own.
You don't get yourself in trouble if you copy few ideas; but never the whole concept.
You can use different names and scenarios while the concept is still there.
Try to research other options to get more ideas as well.


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## Mutimir (Oct 14, 2014)

I wouldn't recommend going down this road. Using Monty Python to get a laugh is like blasphemy. Anyone who truly appreciates them should know that and readers would be disgusted when reading it.


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## Schrody (Oct 14, 2014)

Mutimir said:


> I wouldn't recommend going down this road. Using Monty Python to get a laugh is like blasphemy. Anyone who truly appreciates them should know that and readers would be disgusted when reading it.



Aren't you a little harsh? :scratch:


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## T.S.Bowman (Oct 14, 2014)

Schrody said:


> Aren't you a little harsh? :scratch:



Obviously, a huge Monty Python fan. 

Oh, well. I really don't know of too many other people who would be "disgusted" by a Monty Python reference, which, by the way, isn't actually in my book but was nothing more than an example (but now I am probably going to use it just on general principle), but if that means Mutimir won't be reading Side Worlds, I suppose I'll just have to live with that.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Oct 14, 2014)

Mutimir said:


> I wouldn't recommend going down this road. Using Monty Python to get a laugh is like blasphemy. Anyone who truly appreciates them should know that and readers would be disgusted when reading it.





Schrody said:


> Aren't you a little harsh? :scratch:





T.S.Bowman said:


> Obviously, a huge Monty Python fan.
> 
> Oh, well. I really don't know of too many other people who would be "disgusted" by a Monty Python reference, which, by the way, isn't actually in my book but was nothing more than an example (but now I am probably going to use it just on general principle), but if that means Mutimir won't be reading Side Worlds, I suppose I'll just have to live with that.




I would also disagree. As a Monty Python fan (obviously), I would think that if anything they would feel honored to have their work done homage or better yet even parodied. These are the guys that dropped Graham Chapman's ashes on the floor and somebody vacuumed them for crissakes! :joker:


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## Schrody (Oct 14, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> Obviously, a huge Monty Python fan.
> 
> Oh, well. I really don't know of too many other people who would be "disgusted" by a Monty Python reference, which, by the way, isn't actually in my book but was nothing more than an example (but now I am probably going to use it just on general principle), but if that means Mutimir won't be reading Side Worlds, I suppose I'll just have to live with that.



I'm a fan too. Possible he's a "hard core" fan.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Oct 14, 2014)

Schrody said:


> I'm a fan too. Possible he's a "hard core" fan.




Hey! No fair. I'm the "hard core" Python fan around here.


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## Schrody (Oct 14, 2014)

mrmustard615 said:


> Hey! No fair. I'm the "hard core" Python fan around here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Deleted member 56686 (Oct 14, 2014)

Er, I'd reply with quote but you put your comment in mine 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





Okay let's just say I'm the Python fanatic around here


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## hvysmker (Oct 14, 2014)

To complicate the issue, hows about:

Since my holy sword, holy rifle and holy machine gun didn't stop that demon, next comes my holy hand grenade.

Charlie


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## Deleted member 56686 (Oct 14, 2014)

hvysmker said:


> To complicate the issue, hows about:
> 
> Since my holy sword, holy rifle and holy machine gun didn't stop that demon, next comes my holy hand grenade.
> 
> Charlie



Actually I could see myself using a line like that. I would clearly defer to the OP though :icon_cheesygrin:


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## Phoenix Raven (Oct 14, 2014)

See if my novel became popular and someone used a quote to get a laugh or some reference I would feel honored  more than angry. Also I think it depends on the reference. I actually used a little Airplane gag in my first book. Those who read it saw it as an homage. I guess it's really in the eye of the reader. If any of you ever watched Buffy the vampire slayer they used pop culture references all the time. One being "Nobody expects the Spanish inquisition." I never heard any backlash or law suit over it. So using "Witches are made of wood" should be okay. but again I have no idea. maybe i'll say "witches are made of wax" instead.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm more worried about any legal backlash like a law suit costing money that I do not have. Because there will always be a reader that will hate a book for one reason or another. You can't please everyone. Some may love seeing a familiar reference while others may not.


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## Mutimir (Oct 14, 2014)

Maybe if you had some credibility like Joss Whedon I could support your premise. Prove to us you have some talent to be funny before you pay homage to the greats.


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## T.S.Bowman (Oct 15, 2014)

Mutimir said:


> Maybe if you had some credibility like Joss Whedon I could support your premise. Prove to us you have some talent to be funny before you pay homage to the greats.



Wow. Not having read anything of mine, I don't think it's your place to be telling me, or anyone else for that matter, that I have to prove anything before I can write whatever I wish.

there are a few people here who have read the material I have been working on and they have let me know that it is quite humorous.

Like I said, if you won't be reading my work, that's fine. I can live with that. But you would be well served to sit back and not make disparaging insinuations about one's ability to write humor if you have no intention of actually finding out.

By the way...what exactly makes Joss Whedon so much more "credible" than Terry Pratchett, or Piers Anthony, or even Harlen Coben? They all write humorous work.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Oct 15, 2014)

Mutimir said:


> Maybe if you had some credibility like Joss Whedon I could support your premise. Prove to us you have some talent to be funny before you pay homage to the greats.




Thanks for the warning. I'll make sure I don't try to pay homage to Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

And I guess fans aren't allowed to pay homage either. In the immortal words of my friend T.S....Wow.


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## Schrody (Oct 15, 2014)

mrmustard615 said:


> Er, I'd reply with quote but you put your comment in mine
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I noticed, and duly noted :salut:

Mutimir, I don't remember you being so radical :-s


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## Mutimir (Oct 15, 2014)

Schrody said:


> I noticed, and duly noted :salut:
> 
> Mutimir, I don't remember you being so radical :-s



I didn't think my advice was that radical. I honestly didn't mean to insinuate anything about anyone's ability that's for sure.


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## T.S.Bowman (Oct 15, 2014)

Mutimir said:


> I didn't think my advice was that radical. I honestly didn't mean to insinuate anything about anyone's ability that's for sure.



Sorry. I must have read it wrong.

But, it did come off as a bit harsh toward those of us who put little things in our work for those who might be paying attention. 

Peace offering?


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## Mutimir (Oct 15, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> Sorry. I must have read it wrong.
> 
> But, it did come off as a bit harsh toward those of us who put little things in our work for those who might be paying attention.
> 
> Peace offering?



Absolutely. Seriously as  read it again I see how it is pretty harsh. I think my passion got the best of me but that it is truly just my belief. I just felt inclined to give my honest opinion. Don't think I'm judging anyone because I really think you are free what to do what you want to do. I just wanted to give my perspective as to what would keep me from doing what the OP is planning to do.


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