# Just a Beginner



## TuesdayEve (Sep 18, 2017)

I know I'm just a beginner poet
Don't ask me how I just know it

Good rite?

Is this how it is?
Or is it just me?
Did all of you start this way
Rhyming casually?

Then rhyming, rhyming, rhyming
And rhyming even more
Everyone has a story
Without rhyme what a bore

Conversations with friends
Turn into rhyme
Poetry in motion
Did you go out of your mind?

I'm wondering now
If it's just a phase
I'm new at this 
And just a bit crazed

All of my thoughts are beginning to rhyme
No more music in there
Only words that rhyme

Every thought now 
Has a beginning and end
It's not I'm ungrateful
I'm thankful and yet

What the hell am I doing
What the hell can I say
What the hell's going on here
Please don't go away

Is this my process 
Individual to me
Or is it our process
Shared collectively


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## Gumby (Sep 18, 2017)

Definitely collectively, dear! 



> All of my thoughts are beginning to rhyme
> No more music in there
> Only words that rhyme



Been there and got the rhyming t-shirt.  It will pass, eventually, as you grow in knowledge and become more comfortable in your own skin and style, so to speak.


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## TuesdayEve (Sep 18, 2017)

Sheesh!! Thank you!! Felt like a unicorn for awhile..


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## RHPeat (Sep 18, 2017)

Tuesday

Here are some suggestions and nothing more as something to experiment with when writing rhymes for more musical content.

Try to count the number of syllables in the lines with an even count, you will create more of an internal cadence in the lines with the syllable accents and it will carry the music of the internal line and the rhyme scheme in a stronger way musically. 

When you get good at that you can slip into iambic meter real easy. But even if you stay close to 9 or 10 syllables per line you will have a stronger cadence throughout the poem. It will tend to create the same number of accents in the line by being similar length. 

Rhymes will also become more musical if they occur at measured intervals. So a rhyme scheme can help that as well. A rhyme scheme is the measured interval of the repeated rhymes. Like quatrains can be coupled, alternated, or enveloped with rhymes following a scheme as follows: (aabb ccdd), (abab cdcd), or (abba cddc). Rhyming couplets is always a choice too (aa bb cc dd). It you wish to try tercets (3 line stanzas) go with Terza Rima, Dante's invention. It uses 3 rhymes shifting through the stanzas (aba bcb cdc ded efe) etc. Believe it or not this is actually easier to write than couplets. The alternate rhyme gives the language more latitude for the next rhyme. It is perfectly fine to end a sentence mid-line. That's called a caesura and they can make a line stronger at times. So realize the thought doesn't have to end on the end of a line with the content/context of the poem's intent. 

The difficult thing to learn is to realize that melody happens by moving through the rhymes and not end stopping on them. So try writing through the rhymes into the next line whenever possible. Try not to end-stop all the lines on the rhyme, because it creates a heavy thud on the end of every line that isn't very musical at all. By moving through the rhymes this make the rhymes more fluid and melody like. Know also that line reversals to make a rhyme is forcing the rhyme and breaks the flow of contextual content in the poem. Rhythm is flow, flow is rhythm. So maintain that in your rhyming. When I say line reversals what I'm talking about is the natural formation of the English language as (subject/verb/object of the verb) (noun verb noun) as the basic structure of a sentence. This is even good in non rhyming poems. Blank verse which is different than free verse in metered verse which uses a foot opposed to cadence. 

Also realize that assonance, consonance, and alliteration are all forms of rhyme as well that usually take place in the internal line. A perfect rhyme is generally a combination of two or all three of the above. Like your (more, bore) & (phase, crazed) are a combination of assonance and consonance sounds. 

Definitely have fun with it all. It all improves with your experimentation. End line rhyme is a form of meter. Meter means measurement. It is very much like music in that sense. Where the sound reoccurs forms a measurement. There are many other forms of music, rhythms, and accents within poems. Versification is a metric rhythm of breaths that reoccur in the poem. Understanding all of this helps the writer contain and constrain their music in different ways. Poetry is definitely about music; it is one of poetry's main characteristics if you ask me. 

a poet friend
RH Peat


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## TuesdayEve (Sep 19, 2017)

Wow! Thank you for the time and effort....I appriciate it...It may take a little while to digest your advice as I have to look up many of those terms and then apply them...I do understand the overall idea of what you were saying...creating and maintaining the musical flow of the words....its the 'how' I need to work on....
Thx again


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## TuesdayEve (Sep 19, 2017)

Apparently I hit the wrong button when replying last.... not sure where it went

Thank you for your time and effort....It may take awhile for me to digest all your advice I'll have to look up many of the terms you mentioned and apply them... but I did understand the music and rhythm of poetry now I need to maintain the balance of the whole poem...Thx again


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## RHPeat (Sep 19, 2017)

Don't feel bad Tuesday, 

I've done that a few times myself. 

If you're new to poetry and want to rhyme as well; get a rhyming dictionary — do yourself a favor and never force a rhyme. Make yourself that promise right now. It looks corny and is always obvious as a beginner. The book will broaden your rhyming language and vocabulary. 

And just for poetry's language buy John Drury's "Poetry Dictionary". You'll find it interesting just to skim through and read some in your spare time. And it gives you everything you want to know about the language of poetry and covers a little about forms as well for rhymers including sonnets and how to write one. 

One other book you might put on your reading list is a "poetry handbook" There are several out there. But if you live in a college town go to the yard-sales and look for literary texts and pick up one cheep; Also they generally have a paperback book called "sound and sense" for the poetry section in lit classes that cover poetry along with a great collection of traditional poems from all ages and historical movements. 

There are other texts as well that sometimes replace that book. You might also find Abram's paperback on literary terms as well for about 50 cents or a buck. English Lit is a required class, so you can generally pick up such books real easy without putting out too much money. Drury's poetry dictionary you can get at Barns and Noble. It's more expensive but well worth the expense. You'll use it a lot if you're interested in poetry. Learning the language of the media you will teach yourself much about the craft. It just comes with the territory.  

PM me if you want to know more about poetry texts. Those 3 books will all help your writing and improve your understanding of the craft. Use every source you can, when it comes to getting information about the craft, don't rely on one person or one text. You can educate yourself that way. All Literature classes have a text or section of some kind on poetry. Browse around at the used book stores. 

And if you're interested in counting syllables pick up one of those little spelling dictionaries. I picked up one for 75 cents and have been using it for years for syllable and accent count. They generally give about 40,000 words or more broken into syllables. Get one that shows the accents as well in the word. You can pick those up used also, just about everywhere. They'll show the syllables to a word quickly when writing and where the accent falls in the word as well if you want to write meter. This little book will help your cadence or meter when writing. A quick tool which you can carry with you wherever you go. Besides it will also expand your vocabulary. Something every poet needs to constantly expand. The suggestions here are not the original purposes of this book at all. But it does offer other opportunities at the same time to a poet who wants to use meter within the lines of their poem. It just becomes a quick reference for writing. 

a poet friend
RH Peat


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## Phil Istine (Sep 19, 2017)

To be a beginner
don't make you a sinner
so practice and practice and practice some more
'cos looking up RhymeZone can be such a bore.
Use intuition, and write what you feel
so that your readers, with delight have to squeal.


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## Sebald (Sep 19, 2017)

Do you want that critiqued, Phil?

Just one little critique. It won't hurt at all.


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## Phil Istine (Sep 19, 2017)

Sebald said:


> Do you want that critiqued, Phil?
> 
> Just one little critique. It won't hurt at all.



It was a five-minute job LOL.
It was a valid response to the OP though.


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## Sebald (Sep 19, 2017)

Phil Istine said:


> It was a five-minute job LOL.
> It was a valid response to the OP though.



RH! Phil only put five minutes into his poem.

No, it's a very good point. Intuition... feeling...


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## Pete_C (Sep 20, 2017)

This poem is a bit of an age old problem clearly illustrated! Poems are multi-layered, and can be impacted - positively and negatively - by any or all elements. You have the core message, phrasing, flow, pace, rhythm, rhyme (if you care for it), structure, etc.. That's before you even get to the essence of the poem...

Each element can impact on the others. For example, bad use of a rhyme scheme can impact on rhythm and flow as lines are forced to fit. If the rhyme scheme isn't great, then you end up with a bad rhyme scheme plus poor flow and rhythm. If you're changing words top meet the rhyme, you can also muddle the message and ruin the phrasing. The result is pretty much a car crash.

Too often this happens because people try to do too many things at once. As is typical, over-enthusiasm results in under performance.

Work on things one at a time; master elements of poetry and use them in different ways to see how they impact on the final piece. Also, work out what improves your poems and what doesn't. Not all of us have the same approach, and elements that one person can use well another will stink at!

Don't give up; nothing comes easily!


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## RHPeat (Sep 20, 2017)

Sebald

Interesting thought nonetheless. But another might be —when you are inside of yourself thinking about your possibilities, where does feeling start or stop? Do we ever respond to anything without having a feeling, even unconsciously. If we make a decision about anything, of any sort, we can bet there was a feeling behind it — to justify that feeling within ourselves concerning who we are, what our likes or dislikes are within the moment. 

Well yeah, double talk is quite common in certain types of rhyming poetry, that spins the head, and it's part of the form. You might say, that it is actually part of the enigma or paradox at times inside certain genera. 

I tend to think part of what makes a poet is their ability not to be a follower, but a free thinker to allow all others to be a part of the world at large regardless of how they think, act or what they look like, or even what age they are. I don't know, perhaps Phil might have a real distaste for 75 year olds, I'm willing to give him that right as long as he's not trying to shoot me. 

Any suggestion leaves that space open for the personal to enter into unique ownership of even shared space. Opinion is just opinion. Demanding compliance on the other hand is dogma. That's where the individual makes demands on the many for what they claim is just; the opposed to that thought is there might always be a way to be inclusive opposed to being exclusive. Which poetry tends to do for the most part like all the humanities that deal with the human experience. That poetry looks for the universal to be seen in a unique way through presentation just like sculpture, music, or the visual arts. That we are all star dust, and we all have gone supernova at some point in creation process. Why not in the next moment in time?  

:stupid:

a poet friend
RH Peat


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## Phil Istine (Sep 20, 2017)

RHPeat said:


> I don't know, perhaps Phil might have a real distaste for 75 year olds, I'm willing to give him that right as long as he's not trying to shoot me.



You're OK, Ron. Guns are banned here in the UK 
Seriously now though, getting hung up on rhyme is something that I've moved away from only slowly, and I suspect a lot of poets starting out go through something similar.  It's reading posts by people like you that is helping me make this transition - so thank you.
BTW. I'm 60 myself, so hardly a spring chicken


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## Darkkin (Sep 20, 2017)

TuesdayEve said:


> I know I'm just a beginner poet
> Don't ask me how I just know it  Why would the reader want to ask?  The narrator has just told the reader.  Be careful with stating the obvious and then assuming the reader wants to know why.  There is a line between clever and contrived especially when dealing with rhymed verse.  Poems like this are par for the course for  beginner poets, content almost eerily similar.  One of countless versions readers have seen before, empty of identity and voice.  It's a rhyme.  And if not handled with a bit of care it comes across as sing-song and mocking.  Good rhyming is a talent, one that takes a lot of practice and time.  It is not an element to be treated lightly because it has broken too many poems to count.
> 
> Good rite? Wrong rite.  Right being the correct word, not the rite as in ritual.  Things like this do not add creditability to one's craft.  With poetry, each word carries weight and things like this become glaring, where as in prose, they are not as readily apparent.  In poetry there is nothing to hide behind.  Pay attention to the word and make sure it is the word actually needed.
> ...



If this is a satire on what not to do with poetry, right idea...But it falls down on execution.  As a reader, I failed to appreciate the I'm a beginner 'cuteness' of it, as noted above, it has been done many times before, so the novelty has worn off...Every pitfall has been highlighted aptly.  This is a poetry professor's laundry list of what to avoid when working with poetry.  The author knows what _*not *_to do, so pick an element, one element and work with it a bit to get a feel for it.  Repeat the process.  Start with less and work your way up.

Sit down with a collection of poetry and consider what you see and hear.  By reading it, dissecting it, one begins to understand it.  To lump everything into a stanzaed form does not automatically make a poem.  Sure it looks like a poem and it rhymes, but does the content hold up?  Does it accurately represent the author's voice and intent?  Has the author held their words accountable?

If done as a writing exercise I can appreciate the concept of the piece, yet as a piece of actual poetry it come across as satire gone awry.

Plenty of good advice has been offered, what rests above, is basic critical analysis of content and technical aspects.  Things many readers take into account.

- D.


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## RHPeat (Sep 20, 2017)

Phil 

Most definitely. But there is something that attempting to write in rhymes does beyond just the rhyming poem. It will force a writer into dealing objectively with the lines, especially if they advance to iambic meter along with rhymes schemes and write a few forms as well. Even if the writer stops writing meter & rhymes their lines still become far more lyrical in presentation because of what writing rhymes and meter have done to them musically internally. That they have arrived at a place where they begin to actually hear the cadence of language. *That alone was worth the trip to rhyming.* So it also gives a real root to their own writing that offers deeper understanding about metaphor & form within the poem to be musically attached to the poem, along with all the other rhythms within the poem that are always there. Measurement will create a rhythm or a set pulse in the writing even through the repetition of words, lines or phrases beyond rhyme. 

I say "most definitely" many will drop rhyme or move it more internally when writing free verse. But even free verse can have end line rhymes, as your little poem. And most definitely poetry isn't limited to rhyme at all. Some the best isn't rhymed even historically in some cultures that use repetitions. 

But poetic rhythm has always been a part of poetic presentation as a form of music beyond rhymes. Even ancient China's regulated forms imposed rhythms on the words through grouping phrases because it is a monosyllabic language. The structure of their form can't even be translated into English. But that music can still be heard if someone reads the poem out loud in Chinese. So music has always been a thriving part of poetry in many different ways. Lines themselves become breaths and those breaths become a real rhythm within the poem. So versification implies a music on the poem and written into the poem's structure. This is even seen in the movement toward no rhymes and no reversals to make rhymes. Impeding the flow of the words works against real poetry and its real beauty as I see it. So every one should try writing rhymes just to get that taste about what is musical in poetry as a whole. Just some thoughts. If nothing else just to feel how well some others were at the craft; if nothing else brings appreciation to the music of the craft. 

I have no problem in letting someone realize the craft in its fullest ways by attempting to write their best rhyming poetry even if it stinks. For I feel the adventure itself is an eye opener about who they are as a poet and a writer. Personally I can write both and I don't have much problem with either form — Metric Foot or Cadence when it comes to the internal line or rhymes. I've even won prizes with a couple of my sonnets. I've experimented with all of it, even different kinds of feet beyond the iamb. And will probably continue to do that right along with my free verse. I see form as something relative to the form/content of the individual poem and not a separate craft because one chooses to use meter or rhymes. Forms produce a written music relative to a fixed structure. While free verse is open to form it's on structure. So you can write the words to the existing music or you can write the music to the created form like improv. Both ways are viable for the song writer and for the poet as well. Those that profess one is better than the other are losing something in themselves that has potential in the next poem they write. for it could go either way in it's creation. 

And any poet is nuts not to think of a place like WF not to try things. A place to be experimental and to try things on their peers before sending out to be published. Workshops are places to try things; they are not a place to post for ego. My land, that is limiting. Hopefully the art is still growing with the experimenters like yourself. And if someone is just beginning let them experiment, that is where I stand.  So I agree with you most definitely with the greater understanding concerning the whole of all workshops. Find one that interests you as a writer and expand yourself by listening to all others. But at the same time be open to it all. 

We certainly don't need more dogma when it comes to writing. But we do need to hear from our contemporaries about what is working in our poems. Thank god for workshops and others that can feel open enough to share their work to be dissected for personal growth rather than ego. Workshops are about expanding ones self and not getting pats on the back. The best workshops I've been in everyone shared their knowledge with everyone else.


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## TuesdayEve (Sep 22, 2017)

RH, you have given me alot to think about and some excellent reading sources...will look around for the books you mentioned, Lord knows I can use the help...also have signed up for a 5 week poetry class at the local library sponsored by the local poetry club...every little but helps.

Thx Phil, liked your method... very fun.... message recieved..


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## RHPeat (Sep 24, 2017)

Tuesday

I can give you different ways to form your own workshop if you want to create one. All you need is a source of poets to become a part of it with weekly meetings. There are several different ways to do it; from either a creative standpoint with personal experiences to write about, or a from a form standpoint with different poetic exercises. If you want to know more just PM me. I've been in both kinds of workshops, and found them both profitable to my writing. A live group is very different than what you get on the internet as you'll find out from your class. 

a poet friend
RH Peat


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