# Erotic novels



## kellypeace (Oct 29, 2015)

Does anyone here think erotic novels are a good business to get into? I've heard that it is, and I'm pretty good at writing heated scenes. For NaNoWriMo I'm writing a romance-y erotica novel and I'm thinking I'll get around the publishing it eventually. Any suggestions or advice?


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## Bishop (Oct 29, 2015)

kellypeace said:


> Does anyone here think erotic novels are a *good business* to get into



Personally, I think if you write with the goal of money involved, you're already going to be disappointed.

That being said, there's a huge, poorly written piece of evidence to support that erotic novels can sell. But the same can be said about any genre with a bestseller--which is nearly all of them. It's not about writing in the 'hot' genre. It's about writing what you want to write in a way that people want to read it. How do you think it sounded when JK told people she was writing about a world of wizards you can only access by running headfirst into a brick wall? They probably thought she had run headfirst into a brick wall. But she wrote it in a way that appealed to people, and SUDDENLY young adult fantasy is THE 'hot' genre.


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## Riis Marshall (Oct 29, 2015)

Hello Kelly

As Bishop has posted, writing in any genre will do well if it is, in fact, well written.

If it looks like I'm trying to teach my granny to suck eggs, please forgive me but there's a profound difference between an erotic novel, a sequence of 'heated scenes' and outright smut.

I speak from experience, I tried it once and all I ended up with was a dirty story, not an erotic novel.

My suggestion is to write it twice, once with all the sex in and once with all the sex taken out. If it still reads well with the sex taken out then it's, as I discovered, nothing more than a dirty story.

Having said that, writing a couple of lengthy dirty stories will give you a great deal of direct experience of how _not_ to write erotica.

Go for it.

All the best with your writing.

Warmest regards
Riis


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## bookmasta (Oct 29, 2015)

Erotic romance novels IMO are usually poorly written and all one in the same of cliché plot devices and developments. Not something I'd want to get into, personally.


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## InstituteMan (Oct 29, 2015)

If it's something you enjoy writing, I say to give it a go. There's a lot of ways to write a novel with a strong erotic element to it--it can be art or smut or smutty art.


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## Plasticweld (Oct 29, 2015)

I always equate sex with food, Some meals are better than others, some taste a lot better cause your hungrier and its been awhile since you've eaten. other times it just happens to be your favorite dish.   To be able to translate that feeling and make the act as enticing, is the true art.  While we all eat their are almost no books "that I know of" that go into the joys of eating.  All of us can identify with the feelings and about the hunger but how interesting you make the actual act of eating, is tough to do well. 


Spend time creating the hunger and if you can make the reader identify with those feeling you will have scenes that work or at least ones I would be glad to read about.... I am headed for the kitchen to find something to eat. My wife made a chocolate chip cake with a dark frosting, you know the kind, frosting on the top and in the middle, that washed down with a glass of ice cold milk will really hit the spot.


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## kellypeace (Oct 30, 2015)

> Personally, I think if you write with the goal of money involved, you're already going to be disappointed.



I should clarify. I don't care if I make money, I'd just like people to read it. So let's assume the book will be for free, since what I meant by "good business" was "will people read it?"


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## bazz cargo (Oct 30, 2015)

It might be worth checking the stats on what is being downloaded from Amazon. The three people I know with Kindles like sci fi, detective fiction and westerns. 

It might be worth getting a few other authors together and doing a short story collection.


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## Bishop (Oct 30, 2015)

kellypeace said:


> I should clarify. I don't care if I make money, I'd just like people to read it. So let's assume the book will be for free, since what I meant by "good business" was *"will people read it?"*



If it's written in a way that grabs their attention, yes. Regardless of genre. But even going into writing as a popularity contest will leave you disappointed.

Trying to please others with your writing is, to me, the wrong approach. I'm firmly of the mindset that anyone who is good at anything does it for themself. So deciding to write a particular genre or story or character just because you want people to like it... well, that means you might not like it as much.

I write space operas. I know a little science, a little fiction, and I can put some fun characters together if the stars align... but I only do it because I love doing it and I only love doing it because it's all my creations on my terms. I love what I'm writing, despite its questionable quality, and that's what keeps me going.

Certainly, other people are different than me. I'm sure there's plenty who completely disagree with my statement... but I offer the statement just the same because I have seen too many writers throw their hands up in frustration because they're trying to please some least common denominator and can't unlock the secret formula to 'popular story'. 

TL;DR? Write because and what you want to write. Don't care about anyone else's opinion, until you need a beta reader.


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## Stormcat (Oct 30, 2015)

I feel that most people "twix their nethers" to more visual stimulation and physical stimulation, rather than reading about two people who do it. That being said, if you want to sell, you'd better be good. REALLY good. Most erotica I feel is dime-a-dozen.


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## JustRob (Oct 30, 2015)

How do you know that you're good at writing "heated scenes"? Have others said so? Are you modelling your work on Anaïs Nin's, for example? I haven't read any of that for a _very_ long time now but it wouldn't be a bad act to follow. If you want to test the reactions to your stuff here in WF meet me in this quiet place.

NotPornNotEroticaSexWriting

It's a moderated group that you'll have to apply to join but inside it people are permitted to cross the boundaries, if only to work out where they are. You'll also see pieces written by other members against which to compare your own work and decide where it falls. Some people have turned the heat up pretty high there.

My view on this subject is that there are three distinct categories of writing here. In the first sex is used simply to support the plot and move it forward. It is always questionable whether the sex is absolutely necessary but that is true of everything in a story. Personally I would rather read about a sex scene between consenting adults where nobody actually got hurt than a bloodbath with guns, bombs, torture and dismemberment. I can't understand why some people wouldn't bat an eyelid at a sadist skinning a victim alive but would be appalled by two people doing what many couples often do. Just how sadistic does a criminal have to be to need to be caught? On the other hand it's pretty difficult to slightly have sex. The death toll in the last published book that I read was several hundred Americans. Did it really have to be so many?

The next category, which you are contemplating, is erotica, where the plot is devised to feature sex significantly from the outset. Well crafted the interplay between the characters, whatever form it takes, can create interesting story lines. There has to be something beyond the sexual aspect though to give the story substance. It may be straightforward romance or it may be something more difficult to define. The relationship that runs parallel to the sex is what makes the story come alive and should also govern the nature of the sex itself. This is an interesting balancing act to perform. Pure animal instincts can get pretty boring, but not always.

In the bottom drawer, or on the top shelf, is the pornography, which abandons any pretence of plot at the earliest opportunity. It probably certainly meets the demand to "show, don't tell" better than most. Apart from that I'm unsure where to look for its merits. It's a slippery slope from erotica to porn. A writer needs to be sure that they are proficient in their writing skills to negotiate that slope safely.

I joined that specialist group because I myself have a difficult part of my novel to write. The plot demands that a young couple are shut away alone in a building together for over two weeks and need to emerge wanting to spend the rest of their lives together. What exactly am I going to write about then? There are many aspects to their developing relationship but one will inevitably be prominent. I can't write around it but I can write through it. There's a pretty graphic example in a partial draft chapter that I posted within the group.

If you do choose to join the group and post any of your work there then, as such matter can't generally appear elsewhere here, I'll do my best to comment on every aspect of your writing there. I mean, it's no good writing that sort of stuff if you use the wrong words or spell them wrongly and all the rules of good writing still apply, even at those temperatures. Getting the basics wrong could really turn readers off, which would be totally counterproductive I suppose.

The bottom line is that I agree with Bishop. Write what you like to write, then find the readers. If you want to write this sort of stuff and enjoy it, I'll be waiting to read it for one. And bear in mind that I'm over seventy now and there's very very little new under the sun, although I wouldn't be sure about that when Bishop gets writing. I'm also quite a romantic.


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## Aquilo (Nov 2, 2015)

bookmasta said:


> Erotic romance novels IMO are usually poor written and all one in the same of cliché plot devices and developments. Not something I'd want to get into, personally.



There's a huge difference between erotica and erotic romance. Erotica usually centers around sex and relationship. With erotic romance, if you don't have a plot driving the romance (psych thrillers, steampunk, sci-fi etc), it's not erotic romance. Both target different readerships. And any genre can deal with cliche plot devices and poor penmanship. Some authors just try romance because they think it's easy. If you can't get trade published in any other genre, then you'll stand as much chance making a career out of trade ER.

JustRob nails it.


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## Aquilo (Nov 2, 2015)

kellypeace said:


> I should clarify. I don't care if I make money, I'd just like people to read it. So let's assume the book will be for free, since what I meant by "good business" was "will people read it?"



Free is good to help build your platform, but just remember you'll be competing with a lot of authors who offer work for free, Yours needs to stand out. Good cover art, blurb, damn good story, and editing is vital.


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## JustRob (Nov 2, 2015)

Aquilo said:


> With erotic romance, if you don't have a plot driving the romance (psych thrillers, steampunk, sci-fi etc), it's not erotic romance.



My novels involve science fiction and metaphysics and the erotic romance is an essential component intertwined with those, so I would agree with that. I cannot write the story without including the erotic romance but I have to pitch it just right and not enjoy writing it too much or it will become gratuitous. Hence I regard this as the hardest part to write, not the easiest. That said, getting it right is very satisfying.

About three years ago my first draft of my first novel was read by a professor of English Literature in America. He actually read the whole of it twice to pick up on all the nuances, which I considered to be a remarkable tribute to myself as a total novice. Below is his comment on a key sex scene. The fact that he did comment on it proves just how essential it was to the story to get it right. I think his remarks point out very well the complex nature of erotic romance and just how much one needs to get right. Somehow on that occasion I did. If one can get this sort of reaction from a man used to analysing the best literary fiction in depth then it proves that erotic writing does have a valid place in one's work. I'm not bragging, just very relieved, to be honest. Fools rush in, as they say.

"Graphic, powerful depiction of the act of love through her bodily reactions—very good here, romantic, violent, erotic, physiological, and philosophical all at one go."


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## Aquilo (Nov 2, 2015)

JustRob said:


> "Graphic, powerful depiction of the act of love through her bodily reactions—very good here, romantic, violent, erotic, physiological, and philosophical all at one go."



That's a smashing quote, and one to keep! 

I think the majority who don't read romance don't see the the sub-genres it covers, but not only the sub-genres, but also how the market itself is split into mainstream and niche, and also the level of heat can vary. I've picked up political intrigue with zero sex but strong en relationship, then historical with heavy on page and relationship building. It just depends what the story and plot need, But that's the beauty of erotic romance, the variety.


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## Kyle R (Nov 2, 2015)

Stormcat said:


> I feel that most people "twix their nethers" to more visual stimulation and physical stimulation, rather than reading about two people who do it.



Oh, how you underestimate the enthusiasm of erotica readers. Voracious, they are.

To them, nothing can quite compete with steam on the page. Not even film. Even real life can pale in comparison if the author's got the goods. :tongue2:


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## Stormcat (Nov 2, 2015)

Kyle R said:


> Oh, how you underestimate the enthusiasm of erotica readers. Voracious, they are.
> 
> To them, nothing can quite compete with steam on the page. Not even film. Even real life can pale in comparison if the author's got the goods. :tongue2:



To each their own I guess. I suppose that's how "50 shades" got popular, even though I've heard there's far better work out there.


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## JustRob (Nov 2, 2015)

Aquilo said:


> That's a smashing quote, and one to keep!
> 
> I think the majority who don't read romance don't see the the sub-genres it covers, but not only the sub-genres, but also how the market itself is split into mainstream and niche, and also the level of heat can vary. I've picked up political intrigue with zero sex but strong en relationship, then historical with heavy on page and relationship building. It just depends what the story and plot need, But that's the beauty of erotic romance, the variety.



I was pleased to make a success of that scene because I was a man writing from the woman's POV, adding even more difficulty to the task.

I find it useful to add some levity when a couple are in a united state. In this extract from my novel an English couple are evidently in one of several united states as the political aspect suggests. The humour takes the edge off the implied dominance and submission, which could have been treated far more seriously. Perhaps it illustrates what you mean. It's what I meant by writing through the action rather than around it.



> ‘I’d like it if you held my wrists now.’
> 
> ‘Why? Do you want to be restrained, to give up?’
> 
> ...


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## Bishop (Nov 2, 2015)

Stormcat said:


> To each their own I guess. I suppose that's how "50 shades" got popular, even though I've heard there's far better work out there.



That's like saying there's far better hamburgers out there than McDonald's.


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## kilroy214 (Nov 2, 2015)

^ it's a shame I can only 'LOL' that once.


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## JustRob (Nov 2, 2015)

Stormcat said:


> To each their own I guess. I suppose that's how "50 shades" got popular, even though I've heard there's far better work out there.



Is that an entirely third party statement, in that you have read neither "50 Shades" nor anything better yourself? From what I've heard, having never read "50 Shades" myself, I have read better so don't need to. One needs a personal point of reference in such matters. As I never watch football I wouldn't dream of commenting on the merits of one team compared to another. I think that whole subject is pointless, so my opinion is also. Football and erotica are just particular -- should I say "perversions" or "special interests"? Please yourself. However "50 Shades" got popular we can hardly fault it for failing in that respect. Would that all genres had such an easy path. One wonders how many of its readers actually went on to read those better works later or took that to be the norm and never did. 

It's like encountering someone who states that they don't like wine. One wonders what horrors they've been exposed to to form that all-encompassing opinion. My angel could never envisage enjoying drinking red wine, but she does do that now. Wine, music, literature, hamburgers and sport are all the same in that respect, a matter of personal taste.


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## Kyle R (Nov 2, 2015)

JustRob said:
			
		

> Wine, music, literature, hamburgers and sport are all the same in that respect, a matter of personal taste.



I agree. "Better" is a subjective term. I say, if the reader enjoys it, it's good enough to _Pass Go_. :encouragement:


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## bookmasta (Nov 2, 2015)

Bishop said:


> That's like saying there's far better hamburgers out there than McDonald's.


Burger King, perhaps?


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## Riis Marshall (Nov 3, 2015)

Hello Book

Or even Wendy's?

All the best with your writing.

(Mayhap this thread is deteriorating into one of those that will soon come to the attention of a moderator or two?)

Warmest regards
Riis


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## JustRob (Nov 3, 2015)

Riis Marshall said:


> (Mayhap this thread is deteriorating into one of those that will soon come to the attention of a moderator or two?)



Possibly. "Anyway, it's all done in the best possible taste." (The late great Kenny Everett, of course)


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## Aquilo (Nov 3, 2015)

Stormcat said:


> To each their own I guess. I suppose that's how "50 shades" got popular, even though I've heard there's far better work out there.



50 Shades, where only one is highlighted: no means yes. It's a bad representation of the BDSM lifestyle, but it's read by mainstream readers who don't know the lifestyle, or know better. It has got people talking more openly about the BDSM lifestyle, which should lead to people getting the right portrayal of BDSM. Strange how fiction works. But 50 Shades is too light for my tastes; it's aimed at the cotton-candy end of the market.  



JustRob said:


> I was pleased to make a success of that scene because I was a man writing from the woman's POV, adding even more difficulty to the task.
> 
> I find it useful to add some levity when a couple are in a united state. In this extract from my novel an English couple are evidently in one of several united states as the political aspect suggests. The humour takes the edge off the implied dominance and submission, which could have been treated far more seriously. Perhaps it illustrates what you mean. It's what I meant by writing through the action rather than around it.



Writing for the opposite sex is a good tester for a writer.  A lot of fun too. The lines between genders blur so much that the lines cross in such simple ways. I've read a fair few by male and female authors writing male povs in my genre, and sometimes the women carry the plot a lot harder than men do, and men rely more on the emotional element etc. Stunning works from both sides, though.


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## LeeC (Nov 3, 2015)

Sex is a three-letter word which needs some old-fashioned four-letter words to convey its full meaning.


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## JustRob (Nov 4, 2015)

LeeC said:


> Sex is a three-letter word which needs some old-fashioned four-letter words to convey its full meaning.



A mutual act between two people that can be described solely with four letter words? That sounds like a bit of a challenge. Accepted.

"Each body bare, even more than that kiss, they both feel only love."


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## LeeC (Nov 4, 2015)

You're assuming sex and love are the same 

Love is a matter of chemistry and is the triumph of imagination over intelligence, sex is a matter of physics.  

It was not the apple on the tree but the pair on the ground that caused the trouble in the garden. 

Man: Abstain from wine, women, and song; mostly song. 

Woe-man: A man in the house is worth two in the street.


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## JustRob (Nov 4, 2015)

LeeC said:


> You're assuming sex and love are the same



Well, they did kiss first evidently, so it seems likely that both elements were present. Otherwise they would have skipped that part. Some people see kissing as a more intimate act than sex, which occurs comparatively remotely from the brain. (No, don't even think what you might, not in this thread!)

I think it was my angel (using that term loosely here) who told me that sex was 10% friction and 90% imagination, but maybe that's a woman's view. Perhaps for a man the percentages are reversed. Maybe that's why writing erotic novels is tricky, getting the balance between the descriptions of the imagination and the friction right. 

Personally I focus on describing the imagination and leave the reader to imagine the friction. This may explain why the sex scenes in my writing are often physically impossible, because the sexual physicality is almost an insignificant detail in the context. To an extent I take refuge in that fact. How can something be obscene if it isn't physically possible? It's the physical possibility that shocks. In fact in science fiction interspecies sex is often depicted as so unusual that it can be hard for a reader to feel any response to it at all. It just turns into yet another wildlife documentary.

Just the other night we watched the film _High Spirits _on TV. To demonstrate my point, when the man and the ghost have actual physical sex at Halloween in it there is a modest cutaway to avoid showing it, but on another night when they are skelping the scene is shown in full view. To my mind the skelping is far more intimate, but as it isn't comparable to conventional human experiences it isn't deemed to be shocking to show it. What is shocking about sex in writing is how accurately we depict it.

A demonstration of the balancing act required in erotic writing is just how far we can discuss the subject in this thread, but I've already pointed out the solution to that problem.


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