# A gun for the apocalypse



## Joe_Bassett (Aug 14, 2015)

Hi!
I have some prior experience with rifles and handguns but not very much.  I'm trying to find a particular model that would be very accurate, easy to maintain and carry, with a fairly common bullet calibre, and would be easily found in the southwestern United States. I'm thinking the AR-15 would be good because it's easily modified. Is there any other model of firearm that would work better?
Thanks!


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## TJ1985 (Aug 14, 2015)

Remington 700 in .30-06, with a 3x-9x scope, there aren't many rifles that can match it for long range accuracy, knockdown power, and easily acquired ammunition. Bolt action, which in the hands of a skilled shooter can yield all five rounds under 10 seconds with accuracy at 100 yards. Admittedly, it doesn't have the sparkle-factor of an AR, but it's a really common hunting rifle, making it easy to repair, and easy to acquire if the character happens not to have one. The police model has a ten round box magazine, which could come in handy too. 

By the way, before anybody chimes in to slap me down, I know many rifles are better than the 700 in .30-06 in accuracy, but they're not as readily available. If I were about to be attacked by zombies, hooligans, thugs, and methodists, I'd want a 700, or a Remington 870 12 gauge with slugs.  

A neat twist, the .30-06 surprises everybody the first time they shoot it. It's not a huge round to look at, but it's got some kick to it, especially with 150 grain bullets. It opened my eyes on the first shot, and also taught me about what can happen when you're head is too far forward: the scope recoils with the rifle and give you a whack in the face. Not fun, lol. (Edited to add) you might add this as a detail if your character has limited experience in shooting. I had experience with small calibers, and after pulling the trigger once, I had new experience with large calibers.


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## Sam (Aug 14, 2015)

If you're going to use an rifle such as the AR-15, which fires 7.62mm rounds, you would be far better off opting for an AK-47 instead. Much more reliable, far less likely to jam, much better suited for any apocalyptic or post-apocalyptic scenario. The AK has been tested in the most extreme conditions in the world and is one of the most, if not the most, reliable assault rifles in the world. 

Plus, 7.62mm rounds may not be as easily acquired as thirty-ought-six, but still fairly common for it to work in your story. 

PS: If I were in a zombie apocalypse, the last thing I'd want is a shotgun. Sure, you'll put down the first three, maybe four, zombies that charge at you -- and you might even bag a few extra with the hail -- but in a tight situation, and unless you're using a SPAS-12 or some such combat shotgun, you're going down if a group of them are coming your way.


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## Sleepwriter (Aug 14, 2015)

Ruger 10/22.   Quiet as a whisper with a silencer.  Can stuff your pockets with ammo.


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## MindBlank (Aug 15, 2015)

> Sam
> If you're going to use an assault rifle such as the AR-15, which fires 7.62mm rounds, you would be far better off opting for an AK-47 instead. Much more reliable, far less likely to jam, much better suited for any apocalyptic or post-apocalyptic scenario. The AK has been tested in the most extreme conditions in the world and is one of the most, if not the most, reliable assault rifles in the world. ​




I don't know much about guns myself, and wouldn't be able to comment on the availability in the South-Western United States but just thought I'd chime in and say I fully agree with this.  Not from my experience but my old man was in the Marines (British) for 22 years and told me once that the AK-47 would by far be his weapon of choice, for all the reasons mentioned above by Sam. 

Like I said though I don't know much about the topic myself, so feel free to _shoot  _me down...


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## Riis Marshall (Aug 15, 2015)

Hello Guitar

Personally I would choose the Winchester Model 94, pre-1964, 30-30 calibre. Accurate to 200 yards, dependable and, most importantly, ammunition would be available throughout the country. Thus when your post-Armageddon hero broke into a derelict hardware store in Amanda, Ohio, Bremo Bluff, Virginia, Leshara, Nebraska, Davis, California or wherever, she or he would be bound to find a box or two of cartridges.

If you want to add a revolver to your arsenal you might think about a Colt 45 revolver in one of its incarnations, and the Winchester chambered for the same 45 cartridge.

Maybe not as macho as the Kalashnikov but in a dystopian future, I think more dependable.

All the best with your writing.

Warmest regards
Riis


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## Sleepwriter (Aug 15, 2015)

I think it will come down to what kind of varmints you will have in this apocalypse.  The soft mushy kind or the atomically charged armor plated  ones.  It would only take a couple shots of whatever you have to know if you have the right gun and then only shoot as a last resort, if ammo is scarce.


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## Joe_Bassett (Aug 15, 2015)

In this particular story there are no zombies.  The character is a lone wolf kind of personality known for her sharpshooting skill.  At worst, her enemies would be other people, At best, she'd only need the rifle for hunting.  I'll post what little I have for this particular story soon so you can tear it apart by the details. Haha


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## ismith (Sep 11, 2015)

It's funny to see this post on this forum,  it's a staple of the gun and survivalist forums.  Depending on your characters background, an custom bolt action with an expensive scope would be what he/she would own pre-SHTF. If they aquire a rifle on the fly it could be any number of rifles. A practiced marksman typically has an eye for firearms.


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## PhunkyMunky (Oct 27, 2015)

An AK variant is a tough rifle and common because it's generally cheap. The "regular" variant in 7.62x39 is quite a potent round. The ammunition is very cheap, which means there is a lot out there. It can be modified with accessories, depending on how you choose to personalize it. But the beauty of it, it doesn't need any doodads. The round has a good punch to it and it's fairly accurate, although not on par with an AR15. It's effective range (the range at which you will have consistently accurate shots) is shorter than an AR15. 

But if the Apocalypse goes down, most people will either have what they have, or acquire what they can acquire. Did your characters prepare for such an event? Or are they doing this by the seat of their pants? Nobody still living in a SHTF environment is going to give up their AK or AR15. The character would literally have to pry it from their cold, dead fingers I suspect. If they don't already have the firearm, how do they get it? If you're going for most commonly owned firearm, then hunting rifles will be your best bet, with shotguns and handguns coming in right behind that. I would suspect an AR15 or AK to be a prized possession in the Post Apocalypse.


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## lvcabbie (Oct 27, 2015)

Why would your MC need a sniper rifle? Is there something special she needs it for?

Sniper rifles are basically offensive weapons.


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## Rickswan (Nov 25, 2015)

Many people will jump to say the AK, and they aren't wrong. The Kalashnikov family of rifles is undoubtedly reliable, powerful and common. However, you also wouldn't be wrong in saying the AR-15 would be a good choice, mainly because of the availability of parts. Firearms are actually pretty delicate instruments, needing to be cleaned pretty frequently. With frequent use, as will probably be the case in the apocalypse, parts will begin to break, at which point either the whole weapon system will need to be replaced (if the weapon is rare), or preferably, the weapon is common enough that you can swap out some parts (pretty easy with the AK and AR-15). Another thing to consider, like you mentioned, is ammo scarcity. The AR-15 and AK-47 both use common NATO rounds, meaning they should be fairly common in most civilized parts of the world. The G3 and FAL are also very common rifles. 

In terms of sidearms, I would recommend something in the Glock family, probably the Glock 17. 9mm is another very common caliber, and Glocks are ridiculously reliable. The last thing you need in the apocalypse is to run out of ammo or have some part fail on your unique Heckler & Koch G11 with its 4.73×33mm caseless ammunition. 

So in summary, my 3 criteria are: commonness (so you can replace/fix/clean parts easily), reliability/durability, and scarcity of ammunition.


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## Cran (Nov 26, 2015)

GuitarHiro97 said:


> The character is a lone wolf kind of personality known for her sharpshooting skill.  At worst, her enemies would be other people, At best, she'd only need the rifle for hunting.


If sharpshooting and hunting are what the lone wolf is best known for, then you don't want an assault rifle as your main weapon - AKs and ARs are for inflicting maximum mess with minimum fuss - you want a top-line hunting rifle. 

That means you do want to choose between those already suggested - the Remington 700, one of the Winchesters (the 70, or perhaps a commemorative 94 with a .45 Colt chamber (or whatever handgun you want in reserve), the Ruger 10/22 - or, if you want to do some old Rooster Cogburn fancy shootout on horseback or just prefer a lever-action to a bolt-action, a Marlin 336. 

Which is best? That's a personal choice (like Coke or Pepsi, coffee or tea, whisky or bourbon, Porsche or Ferrari), but what puts these above the rest in the US is their popularity. There are millions of each produced, collected, and looked after better than cars, children, or spouses ... well, that's what I've heard. And they are popular because they are reliable and durable and adaptable to suit a shooter's needs.


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## kilroy214 (Nov 26, 2015)

If she's a lone wolf, I imagine she's only hunting for herself and therefore killing prey bigger than, say a squirrel, would be a waste of meat.
I think possibly the Ruger 10/22 is about the best choice seen so far. However, many shooters who go for accuracy do not like to use semi auto rifles as it can mess with their aim.
I think a Marlin or a Savage or a Winchester or a Remington or a Henry or a Ruger, or a Rossi or a Mossberg or a...well you get my drift, there are tons of bolt action or lever action .22's out there to choose from, and .22 caliber ammo is without a doubt the most widely available ammunition on the market in any state in the US.


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## Cran (Nov 26, 2015)

kilroy214 said:


> If she's a lone wolf, I imagine she's only hunting for herself and therefore killing prey bigger than, say a squirrel, would be a waste of meat.


Trade, killer, even a lone wolf needs some trade for stuff. Pelts, hides, even smoked or dried meat, can buy ammo, some medical attention, or a better pair of boots.


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## Plasticweld (Nov 26, 2015)

I used to do a lot of long range shooting this is my Rugger Mark 11 6mm which kind of a odd ball cartridge.  My best shot with that is a woodchuck at 620 yards.  It is topped with a Nikon 20 power scope with adjustable target knobs 





This is the case that I carry it in along with some much needed stuff if you really want to make long range shots.  Of stuff pictured you will notice on the stock there is  white range card 





This supplies all the information needed to know what the bullet will do at what ranges and how the wind will effect its flight.  To make this card you need to know the ballistic coefficient, referred to  as BC and the velocity of the bullet. This information will let you know how much a 10 mile an hour wind will change the path.  

If your looking at the chart at say a 500 yard shot the bullet will have dropped 37.1 inches from your point of aim if it is already zeroed to shoot at 300.  If you are looking at a 60 yard shot the bullet will have dropped an additional 25 inches for a total of 69 inches.  This makes the next tool the laser range finder a very important tool, you can see how much drop there is in bullet flight in just mis-judging the distance by 20 yards.  Pictured are a Nikon 800 laser range finder and a pair of 8 power binoculars, To scan long distances you really can't use the scope of the rifle as the size of your viewing area is very small. 

Most serious shooters carry a pocket wind gauge and are experts at judging wind speed and direction and how the terrain effects wind current as it moves over the ground.    You can see from the chart with my set up that a bullet will drift 35 inches in a ten mile an hour wind, that is moving in a 90 degree angle to the bullet.  The shooter will not only have to estimate the wind but the angle.  


Also pictured is a sand bag which goes under the comb of the gun stock and that is squeezed and released to raise or lower you rifle when making final adjustments.


Other things that effect bullet flight are ambient air temps, it effects how fast the power burns. If you shoot up hill or down hill it effects the impact location.  Also on warm days you have to contend with mirage and how the heat waves effects bullet flight.  There is also a difference when shooting from a cold barrel and one that it warm from pervious shots.  "the warm barrel changes the pressure _increasing it _so your making a second or third shot your zero changes just a little.


When someone says they took a long shot  and just pulled up and shot you will know their full of shit, as there are many many factors involved in long range shooting along with a vast knowledge of the cartridge and conditions that make the shot possible.  


To give your character realistic skills they would have to have working knowledge of such things... Hope the info helps, I used to be very passionate about shooting, kind of nice to pass some of the info along...Bob



PS. Rugger is not known for quality rifles and it's tough to find a good one, this has had extensive gun smith work done to it and would not be recognized as a top choice. 

Regarding killRoys remarks about a 22 rifle... more deer have been taken at  night with a good old 22 rifle and flashlight than with the fanciest hunting rifles out there.

Woodchuck liver tastes great!


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## PhunkyMunky (Nov 27, 2015)

Nice set up PW! 

 AR-15 is good as well, as many have already pointed out. Now... With a .22

 Don't let people fool you when it comes to a .22 Long Rifle. Lots and lots of animals AND people have been killed with that little bullet. I myself wouldn't trust it in defense against another person, but that's just me. If I happened to have my .22 on me, then that's different but it's not a first choice. 

 The Ruger 10/22 has a breakdown model, which removes the barrel from the rest and makes it easier to stuff into a backpack. It'd be great for hunting and let you carry your AR or AK or whatever else your character has for his/her main defense. Likewise, you can get subsonic rounds for a .22 and if you've got an oil filter over the barrel, it'll be nice and quiet (but a bit front heavy). If you're in an apocalyptic setting, hunting silently is going to be your best bet. A single rifle shot can be heard a long ways off and anyone who hears it will be coming to dinner. 

 A better alternative is the use of traps, especially snares. You can snare a deer and come by the next day and you've got dinner for a while. Same with squirrels, place the snares lining up along a stick, lean against a tree, and you'll have squirrels in no time. The only issue with these concepts are, you have to be in the area for a long enough time to have it work because you have to go and check your traps. But setting such traps frees up your time, which you can use to get water (extremely important), or shelter, or maintenance on your weapons/gear, or scout around. 

 If your MC has his/her .22 (handgun works too, just got to be closer), their fighting rifle (AK/AR/30-30/whatever), and has learned to set snares, they can likely stay out of most trouble. Also, you might want to throw in either knowledge of, or a reference card for wild edibles. Lack of nutrients has killed more people than I can count. 

 In most cases in an Apocalyptic world... People will carry what they have available. Some might have enjoyed shooting and decided to by an "Assault Rifle", but most will be stuck with their old Deer Rifle unless they've acquired better somehow. Those unarmed will have to find solutions to the self defense problem or they will become like everyone else, dead. This usually means acquiring a firearm of some sort. If I can kill my enemy from further away, then that is much better than getting up close and personal. Hand to hand is no fun. It's exhausting and you're much more likely to be killed yourself. Far better to have a firearm and shoot from cover as you will have some stand off distance and can possibly cut and run if all else fails.

Also, your lone wolf will pick and choose their battles. They will first seek to hide and avoid trouble, so Special Ops recues are out of the question. Think more like the hunted criminal who tries to hide to avoid being captured by the police... Or the Soldier trapped behind enemy lines and has to sneak his way back to friendlier territory. Either of these aren't really going to be engaging anyone, instead they will make as small of a profile as they can to avoid being killed themselves. 

Just some thoughts I had regarding your post when I came back to read replies.

So I was thinking on your post and thought about scavenging for materials and food... I'm sure in a PA world you might find a lot of this going on. Maybe you need tent material, or maybe you need something to supplement your hunting, fishing, and wild edible gathering, like rice or whatever. BTW, Tobasco Sauce makes almost everything palatable. I've used it for a long time to eat things I normally would find repulsive (The old MRE's for example). Maybe your character is squeamish about some of the things they have to eat and discovers such a seasoning makes a huge difference (even tasting like cardboard is better than nasty, amirite?). 

Cream of something soups over rice with mystery meat is a delight. Many ways you can manage to make a normally undesirable meal into something you can live with. 

I've a billion ideas regarding the PA world as it is something I've studied and considered a lot. It mostly comes down to skills and knowledge, more so than having the right gun, or a certain amount of food, although neither of those hurt to have. But you can get by with absolutely nothing if you have skills and know-how. And resilience, that no quit-can do attitude to push on when things suck.


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## Joe_Bassett (Nov 28, 2015)

Wow, Thanks for all your advice!

The other day I went to the range and tested out the scope my dad bought for his AR-15.  It worked pretty well at 100 yards despite having been sighted in for something a little closer. I don't have pictures of the targets but I managed to stay within the eight point ring and landed a few bulls-eyes. 

After that I got a chance to try out my dad's friend's gun.  It's got a much fancier scope and is a bolt action sniper rifle.  I'm not quite sure what make or model but I think it shot .308 calibre ammo and had a three round magazine. Now, _that _was a cool gun. At a hundred yards I managed to score 2 bulls-eyes out of three shots.
It may not seem like much skill, but I've only been shooting every now and then since last December.


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## PhunkyMunky (Nov 28, 2015)

Hey, you're not doing bad. First time I shot I was probably 11 years old and with my .22 I hit everything BUT the target LOL. 

I had a Springfield 1903A3 and it needed work. My dad told me just to leave it at his place and he'd get it fixed but when I went to pick it back up he'd torn that thing up so bad that I won't ever shoot it again. Redneck gunsmithing has struck again. It's got no sites, no trigger, and he sawed off part of the barrel because "I'm sporterizing it!"....


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## Xander416 (Nov 28, 2015)

Rickswan said:


> The AR-15 and AK-47 both use common NATO rounds


The AK's 7.62x39mm isn't a NATO standardized round. And not all AR-15s can safely fire NATO standard ammunition.



> The last thing you need in the apocalypse is to run out of ammo or have some part fail on your unique Heckler & Koch G11 with its 4.73×33mm caseless ammunition.


I would crown someone king just for _finding_ a G11 and ammunition for it in the first place. :highly_amused:  Neither were ever put into production (I've read conflicting reports as to whether either really worked right or not) and met their demise with the collapse of East Germany, hence the Bundeswehr adopting the more conventional G36 instead.



> So in summary, my 3 criteria are: commonness (so you can replace/fix/clean parts easily), reliability/durability, and scarcity of ammunition.


I would add location as a fourth criteria, or at least as a footnote to commonality. "Military-style" weapons like AR-15s will be far less common in Australia than they would be in the American south, for example. Because Australians fear and hate freedom.

That last part's a joke.


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## PhunkyMunky (Nov 28, 2015)

7.62x39 IS very common, but only if you're in a country whose military uses that round a lot, or there are a lot of AK's or SKS's around. A .223 will fit into a 5.56x45, and predator hunters all over the US use that round (Coyote's and such). In the US you are more likely to find 5.56/.223 ammo than 7.62x39. 7.62x39 IS a NATO round. 

A lot of Police, at least the ones that keep an AR in their car, use .223 ammo as well. If the world's gone to hell in a handbasket, and Police are no more (very important, you don't want to try to take ammunition from a cop) you can see if you can get into the trunk of their car. They will have ammunition back there, usually in a few magazines in the tactical vest they don't wear everywhere. Likewise they will probably have other useful items, like a First Responder's first aid kit. This is hypothetically, however, for the sake of your story. :smug:


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## lvcabbie (Nov 29, 2015)

When I was 14, I had a .22long rifle that I used to go out varmint hunting with. That and jackrabbits that got into our alfalfa. Get pretty darned good with it as I had to pay for the ammo.


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## PhunkyMunky (Nov 29, 2015)

Oh man, the price of .22lr now LOL. I remember paying $10 for a 500 round brick... I had 3# coffee cans full of ammo LOL.


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## Xander416 (Nov 30, 2015)

PhunkyMunky said:


> 7.62x39 IS very common, but only if you're in a country whose military uses that round a lot, or there are a lot of AK's or SKS's around. A .223 will fit into a 5.56x45, and predator hunters all over the US use that round (Coyote's and such). In the US you are more likely to find 5.56/.223 ammo than 7.62x39. 7.62x39 IS a NATO round.


7.62x39mm is pretty common in the US as well, though yeah, not as abundant as .223. SKS carbines are actually _really_ popular.



> A .223 will fit into a 5.56x4


Yeah, but you don't want to fire a 5.56 out of a .223 barrel, though. The result would be catastrophic for both the weapon and the shooter. 5.56 is loaded to higher pressures than .223. Same distinction with 7.62x51mm and .308.


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## PhunkyMunky (Nov 30, 2015)

Xander416 said:


> Yeah, but you don't want to fire a 5.56 out of a .223 barrel, though. The result would be catastrophic for both the weapon and the shooter. 5.56 is loaded to higher pressures than .223. Same distinction with 7.62x51mm and .308.



Quite true, one specifically chambered for the military 5.56x45 is robust enough for the 5.56mm round and could easily handle the .223 but the reverse would be unadvisable. This was specifically the reason I chose to get my own AR in 5.56 as it would handle a wider range of ammunition. I can buy bulk 5.56mm ammunition or .223, whichever was cheaper for the moment. But if I'd gotten JUST a .223 chambered rifle I'd not have that option and using 5.56 would be very dangerous.


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