# The crowning of a secular king.



## Stormcat (Nov 2, 2015)

So I'm writing the conclusion to my story. The rightful king is to ascend the throne, Time for the coronation! But for those who've been following my posts, this king wants to eliminate religious elements to his own coronation. This means no anointing, no mass, and certainly no invocations of god.

That being said, there still needs to be some pomp and ceremony and all that. By cutting out all of the traditional religious elements, the ceremony seems to have been reduced to "here is crown, you are king" (I am reminded of the coronation scene in "Frozen" which lasted less than two minutes on the screen. It was also reduced to "here is crown, all hail Queen Elsa"). Surely there must be a way to pad it out so it occupies more space on the page. Any ideas on what to add to it?


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## ppsage (Nov 2, 2015)

You say he is rightful so the rituals of coronation will celebrate the elements of his legitimacy. Whatever those might be sans religion. In real life kings without religion is a sort of oxymoron. We tend to call them dictators instead. King sort of implies divine right and divine tends to be religious.


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## Stormcat (Nov 2, 2015)

ppsage said:


> You say he is rightful so the rituals of coronation will celebrate the elements of his legitimacy. Whatever those might be sans religion. In real life kings without religion is a sort of oxymoron. We tend to call them dictators instead. King sort of implies divine right and divine tends to be religious.



Quite a few kingdoms were once religious but have since done away with the religious elements. Unfortunately those kingdoms have "enthronements" instead of coronations. The monarch basically gives a speech, says a vow and they trot out all the pretty gems. It's not a proper coronation and it's very short. The most recent example I think is of King Willem-Alexander of the netherlands. 

I want to write something a bit longer than an enthronement.


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## wainscottbl (Nov 2, 2015)

No bishop or Church. He crowns himself, like the Russian Tsar and Napoleon. Or Caesar. Well, the former were Christian monarchs, but the Tsar still crowned himself with a religious ceremony, and Napoleon had the Pope there to bless him. Refused to let him crown him, as was the custom.


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## Stormcat (Nov 4, 2015)

wainscottbl said:


> No bishop or Church. He crowns himself, like the Russian Tsar and Napoleon. Or Caesar. Well, the former were Christian monarchs, but the Tsar still crowned himself with a religious ceremony, and Napoleon had the Pope there to bless him. Refused to let him crown him, as was the custom.



okay, sounds good, but I need more... ceremony. Did the roman emperors have enthronement ceremonies?


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## Minu (Nov 8, 2015)

There was always been a religious aspect to this, it may not be christian - christianity is, compared to human history, a very young religion - but even the Egyptians had a "religious" mindset to the crowning of the king and queen. They had to be blessed with good life, justice of rule, prosperity, etc. Even the Vikings had "holy men" in their midst who would acknowledge a king/ruler long before christians came. 

To those that think religion doesn't make a king a dictator, there's plenty of historical figures that say otherwise. A number of those approved by the church weren't just dictators, Charles the Mad was well known for being insane.


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## Stormcat (Nov 8, 2015)

Minu said:


> There was always been a religious aspect to this, it may not be christian - christianity is, compared to human history, a very young religion - but even the Egyptians had a "religious" mindset to the crowning of the king and queen. They had to be blessed with good life, justice of rule, prosperity, etc. Even the Vikings had "holy men" in their midst who would acknowledge a king/ruler long before christians came.
> 
> To those that think religion doesn't make a king a dictator, there's plenty of historical figures that say otherwise. A number of those approved by the church weren't just dictators, Charles the Mad was well known for being insane.




I'm not saying religion makes a person Evil. What I want is for a nation, that has gone from religious to secular, to crown their new king. Some traditions may be upheld, oaths said, symbolic gestures, and what have you, but I still want a big ceremony.


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## wainscottbl (Nov 9, 2015)

This shows a lot of ceremony, but is very Christian and ornate obviously

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V9xcLCIDQA

Napoleon. He was semi-Christian in the ceremony. He only used religion as a stepping stone. "Many can do without God, but he cannot do without religion." 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Pf7UqM7Wyg


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## Minu (Nov 9, 2015)

Stormcat said:


> I'm not saying religion makes a person Evil. What I want is for a nation, that has gone from religious to secular, to crown their new king. Some traditions may be upheld, oaths said, symbolic gestures, and what have you, but I still want a big ceremony.



You missed the point. Do you think without religion there would be no celebration? That the king sort of walks up, puts the crown on his head, and that's that. It's never been just "that" from the start of human society when there were kings and queens. There's *always *been some sort of ceremony. 


People get the impression because of Jesus & the crown of thorns that the crown is solely religious. It's a wrong belief. The crown or the concept of a crown / headgear has existed long *before* Christianity. It was called a diadem. The Persian emperors are well known for wearing one. The Chinese emperors, whom existed well before Christianity, likewise wore some sort of headgear to acknowledge their status. 

After all, the ancient Greeks whom held no Christian beliefs, a number of their royalty and leaders noted in many documents as wearing a crown upon their brow. Aboriginal chiefs wear headdresses long before religion as per Christianity was ever introduced. The Egyptians had High Priests - a religious aspect - whom acknowledged king & queen and likewise these individuals wore some method of headdress to flaunt their status.


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## Stormcat (Nov 10, 2015)

Minu said:


> You missed the point. Do you think without religion there would be no celebration? That the king sort of walks up, puts the crown on his head, and that's that. It's never been just "that" from the start of human society when there were kings and queens. There's *always *been some sort of ceremony.
> 
> 
> People get the impression because of Jesus & the crown of thorns that the crown is solely religious. It's a wrong belief. The crown or the concept of a crown / headgear has existed long *before* Christianity. It was called a diadem. The Persian emperors are well known for wearing one. The Chinese emperors, whom existed well before Christianity, likewise wore some sort of headgear to acknowledge their status.
> ...



I'm Not discounting the fact that there were religions before Christianity and that the crowing of the king is an ancient and primarily ceremonial! This is a nation that upholds the tradition of a king but no longer tolerates the original theocratic elements of it.

*WHAT I WANT *is elements of a secular nature added to an ancient custom! You can have secular weddings, funerals, even baby naming ceremonies, all modeled on religious customs but with the religion taken out. *THAT* is what I want for the coronation!!!


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## aj47 (Nov 10, 2015)

Okay, find a good coronation ceremony--there should be film of the British Queen Elizabeth's coronation ceremony, probably even on the Internet. Then take out the god parts.

Perhaps add some symbolic gesture that he is now the caretaker of the populace.  That would be cultural and ritual.  The idea being that his right to rule is a gift from his people (rather than a deity).

I don't see what's so hard about this, but maybe it looks easier from the outside.


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## Stormcat (Nov 10, 2015)

astroannie said:


> Okay, find a good coronation ceremony--there should be film of the British Queen Elizabeth's coronation ceremony, probably even on the Internet. Then take out the god parts.
> 
> Perhaps add some symbolic gesture that he is now the caretaker of the populace.  That would be cultural and ritual.  The idea being that his right to rule is a gift from his people (rather than a deity).
> 
> I don't see what's so hard about this, but maybe it looks easier from the outside.



The problem is, When you take out all the prayer and stuff, a lot of time is taken out with it. I want the ceremony to last longer than five minutes, so I need to pad it out.


Though I do like the idea that he is "The people's protector" rather than "God's ordained". After all, he was technically elected to the position like how the old polish kings were. (Wikipedia "Golden Liberty") Maybe I need to get some community involvement in the ceremony, like having lesser lords pay homage.


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## Bishop (Nov 10, 2015)

Have a herald read off his legitimacy/bloodline/accomplishments. Basically, if they're not worshiping a deity through the ceremony, they're worshiping him on some level.

I think you're looking in the wrong place. Looking at coronations isn't going to net you the result you want; look at secular ceremonies. Graduations have guest speakers, awards ceremonies have speeches by the recipients. When a CEO takes over a company, there's usually an inaugural dinner. Heck, take a look at when the president is inaugurated. Sure, there's still some instances of God poking his butt into it, but things like the new leader taking an oath to his people, ascending to his place of power, people speaking on his behalf of his life and his plans--things like that always work.


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## wainscottbl (Nov 10, 2015)

No God or religion in your novel right, at least officially? Well, you still need ceremony. Atheist society is interesting. The proposition of what it would be like, good or bad. It's a good thing to put into a novel. Philosophy. But God or not, you need ceremony. Hell, the communists had ceremony when they put their dictator in. Do still. I was thinking Soviet Union. Look here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOWa-wuJf4Q

Not installment of office, but ceremony in an atheistic government.


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