# 12 Traits of Creative People



## Tettsuo (Feb 7, 2014)

http://12most.com/2012/03/13/12-striking-tendencies-creative-people/

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			1. Are easily bored
		
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> A short attention span isn’t always a good thing, but it can indicate that the creative person has grasped one concept and is ready to go on to the next one.
> *2. Are willing to take risks*
> Fearlessness is absolutely necessary for creating original work, because of the possibility of rejection. Anything new requires a bit of change, and most of us don’t care for change that much.
> *3. Don’t like rules*
> ...




Interesting list no?


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## Gamer_2k4 (Feb 7, 2014)

It sounds like it should be titled "12 Traits of Stereotypically Creative People."  You know, the kind of people who would call themselves "random" - the kind of people you'd expect to always be doing a bunch of trivial projects for the sake of being "creative."

There's only one universal trait of creative people: They create.  As an engineer, I avoid risk, love rules, am careful to not make mistakes, work independently, and keep my projects to myself.  And yet, I'm creative, because I create.  I compose music, I program computer games and applications, I draw, I design board and card games, and I write.  However, I'm very deliberate with how I go about the creation process, and because of that, I don't fit into the stereotypical mold described above.

Whenever I see someone with the traits above, someone proudly proclaiming, "I'm creative!" I want to ask them to show me one substantial thing they've actually done.  I don't need your blogs of flash fiction, I don't need things you completed for school projects, and I don't need sketches and scribbles.  Give me something tangible, something real, something to which I can say, "Wow, this person put a lot of work into this, and it shows."

Until then, you can keep your "creativity."


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 7, 2014)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> Whenever I see someone with the traits above, someone proudly proclaiming, "I'm creative!" I want to ask them to show me one substantial thing they've actually done.  I don't need your blogs of flash fiction, I don't need things you completed for school projects, and I don't need sketches and scribbles.  Give me something tangible, something real, something to which I can say, "Wow, this person put a lot of work into this, and it shows."



Those characteristics apply to me.  I've developed a patented solution to manage computer security over large enclaves used by TRICARE and the DoN.  I, also, developed a solution to help with the global security of the AFSCN.  (No, these solutions don't give me any knowledge of the security anymore than installing plumbing gives you a taste of the water.)


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## Nickleby (Feb 7, 2014)

Makes about as much sense as one of those articles you used to see in National Enquirer--"The Soft Drink You Prefer Reveals Your Personality!" In other words, correlation and causation are easily confused.


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 7, 2014)

Nickleby said:


> Makes about as much sense as one of those articles you used to see in National Enquirer--"The Soft Drink You Prefer Reveals Your Personality!" In other words, correlation and causation are easily confused.



Then again, dismissing it out of hand without looking at the data makes no sense either.


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## The Tourist (Feb 7, 2014)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> As an engineer, I avoid risk, love rules, am careful to not make mistakes, work independently, and keep my projects to myself.



You are the son my father never had.  He was the director of engineering for Master Lock.  Also a rule lover and never made mistakes because he never tried anything.

He claims I left home at the age of 17, and technically that's a very real mistake he made.  I escaped.


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## Blade (Feb 8, 2014)

As a comment I think there is a bit of a contradiction between #1 and #10. I am never bored myself due to being able to get more going than I ever seem to have enough time and energy for.:witless:


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## Jeko (Feb 8, 2014)

I think these traits apply to everyone to some extent or another.


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## Sam (Feb 8, 2014)

#1: No. I've never been bored a day in my life. I believe people who claim to be bored all the time are the products of their environment. They lack the imagination to make even the smallest task interesting because they've spent their entire lives with a gadget in their hands. 

#2: I hate taking risks. It implies loss of control -- and that's something I loathe with equal measure. 

#3: I don't like rules as they apply to writing. Some rules are necessary. 

#4: Yes. All the time. It's what separates us from animals. 

#5: No. I'm not afraid to make mistakes, but I certainly don't make a lot of them. 

#6: Hell no. I wouldn't work with another author if you paid me a King's ransom. I barely get on with myself. 

#7: Depends on the person. I won't impart knowledge to someone who clearly won't listen to it. 

#8: A million per cent yes. 

#9: Yes. 

#10: See #8. 

#11: See #10

#12: I think any author who doesn't consider themselves creative is either deluded or lying to themselves.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Feb 8, 2014)

Blade said:


> As a comment I think there is a bit of a contradiction between #1 and #10. I am never bored myself due to being able to get more going than I ever seem to have enough time and energy for.:witless:



There's also a contradiction between #6 and #8 (how exactly can you collaborate independently?).  Like Cadence says, a lot of these traits apply to a lot of people, and any deeper insight is just confirmation bias.

Kind of like horoscopes, actually.


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## The Tourist (Feb 8, 2014)

I actually find more people creating the illusion they are creative as to create a persona hijacking the status of the truly creative.

Think of all the people you've met who claim to be writers but actually detail cars for a living.  Padding their resume' is the most creative thing they'll ever do.

If the "creative personality" could truly be quantified, a really creative person would find a new path breaking the mold of the stereotype.


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## Morkonan (Feb 8, 2014)

I think the title "Creative" is one of those attributes that gets applied after-the-fact. Oh, and it's only applied when recognized by society as being appropriate, of course... People who invent football-bats in order neuter a 1965 Oldsmobile transmission are not "Creative."


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## Olly Buckle (Feb 8, 2014)

> I think these traits apply to everyone to some extent or another., from Cadence





> Kind of like horoscopes, actually, from Gamer


Exactly, these 'traits' don't say anything substantial. 'Willing to take risks"; what with, how big, how often? "Are generous"; with ideas, money, to their family, to their friends, to a fault?

Mind you such vaguenesses can be very useful when you are writing for entertainment, the more specific you are the narrower the group of your audience who will associate with what you write. On the other hand if you are writing to inform the more specific can be more informative.


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## The Tourist (Feb 8, 2014)

Morkonan said:


> "Creative"...only applied when recognized by society as being appropriate



Now, to me, things that are truly creative are inappropriate to society.  I mean, look at these people!

The best definition of modern man was proffered by David Carradine's character in "Kill Bill" as he explained his views on Superman and Clark Kent.  His opinion was that Kal-El created Kent as his critique of modern man--weak, tentative, cowardly.

Nothing I have witnessed in my entire life would offer an opposing rebuttal.

Ergo, it would be compliance that is valued by society, not innovation.  Even among the writers here, on every thread where I've participated in expressing lack of creativity, malaise and outright plagiarism, it's laziness that is defended, not trailblazing.

We've become an entire planet of yes-men and sheeple who acquiesce to surrender if it breeds consensus.  Oh, we applaud a movie character with a wise mouth who breaks rules, but then try to pass evermore restrictive legislation to corral anyone with an unregulated ounce of testosterone.

Laugh if you want, but there's a demographic here that writes me PMs.  Hard as it might be to swallow, it's young women in their early to mid twenties.  They use terms like "you needed to say that," and one who complained on the absence of real men.  Yikes, I'm their grandfathers' age, and they've grown disgusted with what walks in society.

Show the public real creativity, and they'll stomp it out.  If only to keep from being denigrated by obvious comparisons.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Feb 8, 2014)

The Tourist said:


> and they've grown *discussed* with what walks in society.



I think it's fascinating how the brain short-circuits like this; mine does it all the time.  Time for a trip to the homonym thread.


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## Olly Buckle (Feb 8, 2014)

> His opinion was that Kal-El created Kent as his critique of modern man--weak, tentative, cowardly. Nothing I have witnessed in my entire life would offer an opposing rebuttal.


Even your own existance? Superman first appered in 1938, so you and I are modern man to him. By the by, rebuttals always oppose, there is no other sort.


> We've become an entire planet of yes-men and sheeple who acquiesce to surrender if it breeds consensus


So you will stick ridgidly to the rules and salute every time you see a mod?

I don't think so, I would actually be a bit dissapointed if you did. Free spirits are rare and precious, but they always have been, most of the world throughout history has blindly followed leaders, and whether it ended in success or destruction was purely a matter of chance.

Sometimes you do say things that need saying, it is a shame when you go into one like this and stop thinking for yourself, it spoils your credibility when you do have a real and original point to make.

I don't think the ordinary modern man is really much different to his historical counterpart, some ways worse, some ways better. I would love to wake him up fully and have him experience life and living at its full potential, but I don't think telling him he is useless and inadequate will help do it.


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## The Tourist (Feb 8, 2014)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> I think it's fascinating how the brain short-circuits like this; mine does it all the time.  Time for a trip to the homonym thread.



Could be, I also seem to have picked up a very aggressive "auto correct."  The only thing that's been added to my lap-top is the standard "thief-in-the-night" Windows updates.

When I misspell a word here, there is a dotted red line that  appears--but only for a second.  No matter how obscure the word, a new word pops up almost immediately.

I'll go fix the word and see if it sticks.


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## The Tourist (Feb 8, 2014)

Olly Buckle said:


> So you will stick ridgidly to the rules and salute every time you see a mod?



Moderators?  Heck, I don't really have any use for them at all, and technically I am one, myself.

By it's very definition, a forum is an arena for discussion--that means opposing viewpoints.  If you "moderate" the free exchange, then you aren't really free, are you?

A moderator is an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem.


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## ppsage (Feb 8, 2014)

Somebody called me creative today. Didn't stop them saying my piece was a weed patch.


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## Sam (Feb 8, 2014)

The Tourist said:


> By it's very definition, a forum is an arena for discussion--that means opposing viewpoints.  If you "moderate" the free exchange, then you aren't really free, are you?



There is no such thing as 'free' anything, including speech, will, and everything in between.


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 8, 2014)

The Tourist said:


> _We've become an entire planet of yes-men and sheeple who acquiesce to surrender if it breeds consensus_






Olly Buckle said:


> Even your own existence?





The Tourist said:


> Moderators?  Heck, I don't really have any use for them at all



I trust you're aware that you just contradicted yourself?  What you actually meant is that, in your eyes, the only person who has risen above is yourself.[/quote]


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## The Tourist (Feb 8, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> What you actually meant is that, in your eyes, the only person who has risen above is yourself.



"Myself" is the only thing I can control.  Why do you think the bonds that develop between men on a championship team, a military unit, a police department or fire station are so strong and so rare?  It's because the idea of brotherhood has dwindled.  There is no value in community now.

I expect to get up, go to work and watch society tumble to new lows even I find unimaginable.  If I do not galvanize my actions and disciplines I will have to do without.

About two years ago it all came crashing down on me with brutal clarity.  I usually sit in restaurants and bookstores with my back to the wall from a vantage point that lets me see all of the doorways.  For some reason I looked up, gazed at my wife, the people seated around me and the endless parade of shoppers passing by in the commons area.  I decided at that moment no one was going to risk anything for my wife and I, and if trouble ensued, I would grab her and find a safe exit--no matter what the crisis.

I had finally reached the tipping point that there was no reasonable expectation that modern "men" would ever really sacrifice for a greater good, and I'd be a fool to be the last dinosaur with that outmoded ideal.

Of course modern men are going to find ways to get around creativity, honor and doing the right thing.  Of course they're going to spend more energy getting out of work than actually doing the work to begin with.  And if we know that people will even stoop to plagiarizing a tale of fantasy, and justify their sloth for what is tantamount to outright theft, why should I trust them to my safety and security?

When my wife and drove home that night I was silent and she mentioned it to me.  I made some excuse as to be tired, but I was actually lost in thought.  I was trying to imagine my exit from that building amid a fire, an attack, or an explosion and leading my wife to safety while hundreds screamed out.  I wondered if I could live with that.

Like I said, that was two years ago.  Now it doesn't bother me a bit.  Society has let me down, and I'm not going to risk anything for them.  But I can make my own actions reach my private expectations.  I can make sure my internal barometer is intact.  I can make sure I do not steal or lie.  But I live among easy riders, and I do not have to be a sap.


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 8, 2014)

The Tourist said:


> "Myself" is the only thing I can control.  Why do you think the bonds that develop between men on a championship team, a military unit, a police department or fire station are so strong and so rare?  It's because the idea of brotherhood has dwindled.  There is no value in community now.
> 
> I expect to get up, go to work and watch society tumble to new lows even I find unimaginable.  If I do not galvanize my actions and disciplines I will have to do without.
> 
> ...



Without fail, when someone starts talking about how everyone has fallen to a new moral low, they always think they are the exception.  I thought it was an American thing having to do with our growing centralized distant government.  But, where are you from?


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## The Tourist (Feb 8, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> Without fail, when someone starts talking about how everyone has fallen to a new moral low, they always think they are the exception.  I thought it was an American thing having to do with our growing centralized distant government.  But, where are you from?



Me?  Clearly I'm from the 1960's.  And the fall to a moral low is not in our imagination.  I miss the best parts of that era every day.  My position is that I do not have to join "modern society."  Actually the word 'join' isn't accurate.  I do not have to be tainted by current events.

Besides, don't seem so surprised.  You can't depend on modern people, either.  So since they're going to let you down--and you're not surprised by that--why should the disgust of one old graybeard offend you?  When I let you down, I'll just be one of thousands.

More to the point, what debt do I really owe these people?


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 8, 2014)

The Tourist said:


> Me?  Clearly I'm from the 1960's.  And the fall to a moral low is not in our imagination.  I miss the best parts of that era every day.  My position is that I do not have to join "modern society."  Actually the word 'join' isn't accurate.  I do not have to be tainted by current events.
> 
> Besides, don't seem so surprised.  You can't depend on modern people, either.  So since they're going to let you down--and you're not surprised by that--why should the disgust of one old graybeard offend you?  When I let you down, I'll just be one of thousands.
> 
> More to the point, what debt do I really owe these people?



Since I'm living in the modern world, I'm, by definition, a 'modern man'.  We all here (those of us not living in the 1960s) are 'modern people'.  You risk tainting yourself by being here.


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## Lewdog (Feb 8, 2014)

I'm definitely not creative by that list.  I totally believe in rules and think they are a valid and integral part of society and help keep things tight and orderly.


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## The Tourist (Feb 8, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> You risk tainting yourself by being here.



Perhaps, but I think you misread my motives.

I'm working on a book, and I know that rewards usually require some risks.  To find one ounce of gold you have to process several tons of dirt.  So it is with seeking knowledge and guidance.

I may, in fact, have to trip over scores of fan-boys, plagiarists, and hacks who actually think they live in Panem.  But I've also met some talented poets, and I've made a few friends.  That's a risk I'll happily accept.

But like that metric ton of worthless dirt, called "attle," I'm also prepared to discard it when I arrive at completion.


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## Lewdog (Feb 8, 2014)

..and sometimes when sifting through tons of dirt, not only do you find gold, but you find a few gems like me.  :hi:


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## The Tourist (Feb 8, 2014)

Lewdog said:


> ..and sometimes when sifting through tons of dirt, not only do you find gold, but you find a few gems like me.  :hi:



Yes, you are one of the gems!  I'm saving you a seat of honor on the Group W Bench.

I like to think of myself not as a gem, but as obsidian.  Often ugly, gritty and dark, but with edges incredibly sharp.  LOL.


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## Phoenix Raven (Feb 8, 2014)

My favorites is
*3. Don’t like rules
*Yup, in writing, rules are made to be broken.
When I was researching about writing a novel the one thing that stuck with me is that all of it is just Guidelines. While most chapters in novels may average two thousand to six thousand words there may still be a chapter that's as short as one word. A chapter ends when the writer feels it should. Just like Bob Ross, He can put a happy little cloud where ever he darn well wants to. Writing is just as free.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Feb 9, 2014)

Phoenix Raven said:


> Just like Bob Ross, He can put a happy little cloud where ever he darn well wants to. Writing is just as free.



He can, but he still only puts them in places that are visually appealing.  He's still following rules, even if it's not apparent on the surface.  This is true in writing, as well; while we are technically free to do whatever they want, the most successful stories are the ones that follow certain patterns and rules, even if the reader (or writer!) isn't aware of them.


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## The Tourist (Feb 9, 2014)

Phoenix Raven said:


> My favorites is *3. Don’t like rules*Yup, in writing, rules are made to be broken..



I find this an anomaly in a creative writing forum.  If you read the forum rules it's clear that you can dangle a participle but not call a hack a poopie-head.

Here's an analogy on this human condition.  While built for speed, handling and braking, both of my bikes are rife with illegal parts and equipment violations.  My pipes are stamped "Screaming Eagle," and you can read it from across the parking lot.  I asked a friend of mine who's a LEO on why I never see customized bikes being measured and checked for DB levels.  He shrugged and said, "Hey, it's a Harley, they're supposed to be that way..."

So, we're writers.  We're supposed to push the envelope of conventional ideas and social mores.  But the first thing they hand you is a boring manifesto of all the things you cannot do.

_"This is my daughter's bra strap.  It's a Victoria Secret model 317, one of the 'The Gypsies of Midnight' series.  It is replete with a European, three prong clove-hitch that opens from left to right.  Don't touch it..."_


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 9, 2014)

Phoenix Raven said:


> Just like Bob Ross, He can put a happy little cloud where ever he darn well wants to.



Actually, he couldn't.  He never put a cloud under the ground, for example.


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## Phoenix Raven (Feb 9, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> Actually, he couldn't.  He never put a cloud under the ground, for example.


Hehehehe....
Well obviously yeah. 
If I'm writing a medieval fantasy novel I wont say that platoon of German soldiers armed with AR15's stormed the castle to kill the dragon.
I write what fits and compliments the story. Using proper spelling and grammar. Or at least I try to use correct spelling and grammar then pray me editor will correct all my mistakes.


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## Terry D (Feb 9, 2014)

The twelve traits remind me of a horoscope--they are written in such general terms that anyone can find a way to see themselves in any all of them.



> I find this an anomaly in a creative writing forum.  If you read the forum rules it's clear that you can dangle a participle but not call a hack a poopie-head.
> 
> So, we're writers.  We're supposed to push the envelope of conventional ideas and social mores.  But the first thing they hand you is a boring manifesto of all the things you cannot do.



Geez, then maybe you shouldn't have agreed to all those pesky rules when you signed up, huh?


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 9, 2014)

Phoenix Raven said:


> Hehehehe....
> Well obviously yeah.
> If I'm writing a medieval fantasy novel I wont say that platoon of German soldiers armed with AR15's stormed the castle to kill the dragon.
> I write what fits and compliments the story. Using proper spelling and grammar. Or at least I try to use correct spelling and grammar then pray me editor will correct all my mistakes.



Its more than that, though.  A writer should know that tense (past, present, future, etc.) and person (first, second, third, etc.) influence the reader in different ways.  A writer should know the pros and cons of using flashbacks and flashforwards.  A writer should know the three act structure (and knowing other structures such as 4 act, 5 act, etc. would be helpful) and know where each act transition should be and the tradeoffs of putting the act transition somewhere else.  A writer should know Chekhov's gun.  A writer should know the importance of theme.
I could go on for days, but, in short, a writer should know the science  of structure and not try to reinvent the wheel every time they write a story.


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## patskywriter (Feb 9, 2014)

Rules are cool up to a point. I've written some of my best songs by pretending to compose for a set project (such as a spy movie theme or a song using the same chords as a favorite tune). It's sometimes difficult for me to sit at my guitar, staring at the walls, and trying to come up with something.

On the other hand, if one follows rules blindly, he or she can end up producing something horribly bland and formulaic. When my niece excitedly invited me to watch a couple of her shows with her, I amazed her by reciting the dialogue before it was even spoken. She thought I was psychic—I had never watched any of those shows before then. I told her that I had grown up watching sitcoms and that the writers were obviously using a template that hadn't changed in 30 years. Although those shows were popular and made tons of money, they simply didn't interest me. Rules can be comforting for some folks but too confining for others.


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## Olly Buckle (Feb 9, 2014)

> If you read the forum rules it's clear that you can dangle a participle but not call a hack a poopie-head... We're supposed to push the envelope of conventional ideas and social mores.


Dangling participles is more likely to be pushing the envelope than engaging in hackneyed, cliché, mud slinging.

I know a hackneyed cliché is tautology, that's how I feel ...


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## Jeko (Feb 9, 2014)

> By it's very definition, a forum is an arena for discussion--that means opposing viewpoints



You forget to add 'do not have to be aired' at the end. Discussion is not debate; those who don't know the difference usually can't do either.


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## The Tourist (Feb 10, 2014)

Cadence said:


> You forget to add 'do not have to be aired' at the end. Discussion is not debate; those who don't know the difference usually can't do either.



Well, sure.  Your detractors always want you to be silent and/or compliant.

If your opposition has sound, viable postulates it shouldn't matter hold I offer my opinion.  It's when you hear the whining that you know the guy's been beaten.



			
				patskywriter said:
			
		

> Rules can be comforting for some folks but too confining for others.



I did want to touch on this.  It relates to our present concepts of "winning and losing."

There's an old Russian adage on prospering.  A farmer didn't want a cow, but he was happier if yours died.  We call this idea "Schadenfreude."

I live my life to the maximum amount of freedom and creativity I can.  I don't care at all if my detractors prosper.  Then one guy comes flying in from the cheap seats and demands laws should be passed for helmets--and he doesn't even ride.

In the end he doesn't really care about safety.  All he cares about is winning, or being vindicated.  And when people do that they remind me of my mother, an alcoholic.

She would debate you merrily for hours.  She'd just waste your time.  But it's when she was getting angry that you knew you were zoning in on the true issue.  When the core issue is threatened--in her case it was unlimited alcohol--that's when the claws came out.

I often express my disgust for "the modern man."  For some reason we must not only win, but everyone else must lose.  I live in a very liberal area, and they are hopelessly mated to the failed policies of the 1960s.  My state has adopted a more conservative plan, and things are improving.  We have lower crime rates, people working and we even have a state surplus.

So guess what.  Suddenly every socialist with a sneer and an agenda comes out swinging with pie-charts, a demand for abridging enumerated rights, a guitar and several verses of "Kumbaya."  He doesn't care that things are better, he only cares that he lost.  To blunt that, you must be immediately reviled.

I never espoused he should be arrested, defrocked or that he should expatriate to Moscow.  All I did was dare to succeed within the same milieu in which he also lives.  I'm a citizen not a subject, and I refuse to be ruled.


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## TheYellowMustang (Feb 10, 2014)

I agree with Candence, most people would probably nod their heads at most of these. Kind of like a horoscope.

However, I like this one:



> *11. Work hard
> This is probably the most overlooked trait of creative people. People who don’t consider themselves to be creative assume that people who are creative are magical, that ideas just pop into their heads effortlessly. Experienced creative people have developed processes and discipline that make it look easy.*



It's always kind of annoyed me when people tell me I'm lucky I can draw. I never ascribed it to luck at all, just years of practicing.


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## Olly Buckle (Feb 10, 2014)

> If your opposition has sound, viable postulates it shouldn't matter hold I offer my opinion


What the...? 





> There's an old Russian adage


One for my mis-use thread, 'adage' means 'Old proverb', putting old before it is tautology, there is no other sort.


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## The Tourist (Feb 10, 2014)

TheYellowMustang said:


> It's always kind of annoyed me when people tell me I'm lucky I can draw. I never ascribed it to luck at all, just years of practicing.



I'm in the same boat, however "annoyed" is not the word that describes my plight.

Polishing is getting to be a lost art.  And in plying that trade you also have to deal with repairs, much of it caused by the abuse and neglect by the clients themselves.

The togishi craftsmen refer to polishing as "the curse."  They originally meant it to signify that making something perfect can never be attained, so we're always disappointed with our own work.

For me, the curse comes with dealing with the clients.  There's a tremendous "idiot curve."  And it's also something I'll never be able to fix.  LOL


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## Gamer_2k4 (Feb 10, 2014)

TheYellowMustang said:


> It's always kind of annoyed me when people tell me I'm lucky I can draw. I never ascribed it to luck at all, just years of practicing.



Fully agree.  Too many people either don't recognize or don't want to recognize that the best of the best got there through hard work.

After seeing a concert pianist: "I wish I was that good."  Really? You wish you practiced 4-8 hours a day for years and years? Well, what's stopping you?

While some arts do reward certain intrinsics (even the best of technique isn't going to make Christopher Walken sing like Josh Groban), for the most part, there's no such thing as natural talent.  There's only hard work.


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## The Tourist (Feb 10, 2014)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> Fully agree.  Too many people either don't recognize or don't want to recognize that the best of the best got there through hard work.



Gamer, I understand your point, but then, I also looked at your location under your avatar.  The upbringing you had was the same as mine--in fact, if you live near a bigger city we're probably less than 100 miles apart right now.

The issue is that what you and I take for granted is no longer valued.  As we write, the Olympics is on, and that is the story of people getting up at 0400, training until they bleed, carrying a full load of classes and investing every spare penny in tools and coaches.

I have 7,000 dollars invested in sharpening tools, and while that sounds like a lot, I had three times that much in reloading equipment.  Taken as a real time investment, it computes out to decades.

The reason you personally are succeeding, on why a little girl with taped ankles does a perfect floor routine and the how my knives get so sharp can be explained as simply "old school."  I don't think you could sell that as a lifestyle anymore with most skill sets.

You and I should be thankful we got to see the golden age and respect the benefits of work and deferred gratification.


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## Phoenix Raven (Feb 10, 2014)

Thank you for putting this out here. This is all I really meant about not liking rules. That sometimes they can be constrictive and bending them or breaking them on occasion can really help a story along.
I guess I'm just not as good at saying it as others.


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 10, 2014)

The Tourist said:


> The reason you personally are succeeding, on why a little girl with taped ankles does a perfect floor routine and the how my knives get so sharp can be explained as simply "old school."  I don't think you could sell that as a lifestyle anymore with most skill sets.



Here, you're wrong.  I've seen and known many people in Generation Y who have busted their asses to accomplish what they have - people I have tremendous respect for.


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## The Tourist (Feb 10, 2014)

Justin Rocket said:


> Here, you're wrong.  I've seen and known many people in Generation Y who have busted their asses to accomplish what they have - people I have tremendous respect for.



But is it the prevailing mentality, or just "the white crow gambit"?

Amurkin baby-boomers were schooled since before kindergarten on good grades, a college education and advancement in the business world.  We took fewer actual man-hours of vacation than even the Japanese.

I'm retired now and even then I still feel "odd" if I don't get paid for some form of work every few days.  I cashed a check for a minor knife related job this morning--all of nineteen bucks.  After the gym my wife bought sandwiches and coffee for us, and there was a strange calm I felt because it was an afternoon out because of work, not lottery tickets or charity.


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 10, 2014)

The Tourist said:


> But is it the prevailing mentality, or just "the white crow gambit"?.



The prevailing majority of Generation Y whom I personally know well enough to comment on (I regularly talk with them, break bread with them, etc.) are hard working and working hard to better themselves.  Sometimes, they work hard but lack direction.  Other times, they have that direction due to good role models (who listen to them and respect them).

Feeling like you need to work doesn't make you special.   When I finally had to face the fact that I can no longer work (and I busted my ass hard to try to return - no one who knows what I went through can deny that), the transition was hard.  Having the need to feel productive be filled is an essential component of psychological good health.


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## The Tourist (Feb 10, 2014)

You're right, the concept of "special" isn't the precise word.

I don't polish for the clients, per se, I polish for me.  I like quality work in other aspects, and it's getting more difficult to find craftsman as downright picky as I am.

The knife below is an ESEE Izula 2 made from 1095 steel--essentially a hunk of railroad track with a college education.  It costs me about 50 bucks.  It does not need to polished in the same fashion as a high-end custom katana, but that's the work I prefer to do.  What do I do with it?  It's the knife I use when I eat...

Recently I did some work for a  guy who builds custom go-fast engines.  In his twenties, he bought milling machines also used by NASA.  Most guys wouldn't care, but any less for him is sloppy or a compromise.

One out of every three living Amurkins is a baby-boomer.  Most of us think this way.  Admittedly extreme, but I admire and respect the idea.  _Your report on Generation Y was the most uplifting news I had today_.


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 11, 2014)

This knife shows some real craftsmanship.  I know nothing of making knives, so I'm guessing the real difficulty of what you've done here eludes me.  I'm guessing that cast iron (which is what this knife appears to be made from) is relatively quite brittle, making the crafting of this knife painstaking.
But, where you lose me is how this is supposed to be some commentary on Generation Y.  I guess that's because I've known extraordinary craftsmen of all ages my entire life.  Berea Kentucky is only a few hours away from here.  It is the nerve center of arts and crafts in the United States.  Yellow Springs is much closer.  I've known a lot of craftspeople who have spilled out of the Appalachian mountains.  My mom has a 12 degree visual field in one eye (the other is blind) and is extremely near-sighted, but has people all over the world seek her out to do complex sewing (she's 74, her current project is her eldest granddaughter's wedding and she tells me that after that she looks forward to doing more weddings until she loses her vision totally).  At the other end of the age spectrum, my youngest cousin (who is Generation Y) has become the youngest person ever to obtain a full professorship at the Cincinnati Art Institute.   My brother has won regional vocal competitions (he used to be a top tier drummer before his car accident).  His Generation Y daughter looks to be following in his footsteps.  Here's a song another nephew (also Generation Y) did back in high school (he's gone on to become a Quaint for PNC and makes more money than his parents combined - he's not even 25 yet).  He wrote the song and does most of the instruments except for the guitar.  All my life, I've been surrounded by top-notch craftsmen of all kinds of art and of all ages and walks of life.  I say that art runs in my family, but it ran over me and left tire marks.
So, I will quickly say that your knife looks awesome.  But, you lose me when you treat it as some sort of commentary on Generation Y.


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## bookmasta (Feb 11, 2014)

Moderator Note: Just a reminder to please keep this thread on topic.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Feb 11, 2014)

The one trait I've noticed among the vast majority of truly creative people I have known is that they generally prefer to talk about their work, rather than constantly blathering on about themselves.


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## alanmt (Feb 11, 2014)

I fit 9 of the 12 criteria, which means I must be 3/4 creative?  I'd figure it out, but two of the missing traits are hard work and self motivation, so clearly it's too much effort.


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## BryanJ62 (Feb 11, 2014)

I've had a problem with rules. My first job was Burger King. 16 years old. I was told never to eat the food. I got busted for shoving a whopper patty in my mouth. Yes, it was worth it.


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## The Tourist (Feb 11, 2014)

lasm said:


> The one trait I've noticed among the vast majority of truly creative people I have known is that they generally prefer to talk about their work, rather than constantly blathering on about themselves.



Come to Madison, Wisconsin!  We can torpedo that postulate in a matter of seconds!  I've never met as many "limousine liberals" in my life!  They do less, trumpet more and lecture all of us akin to a spoiled ruling class!

We have an insert that appears in our regular Wednesday edition of The Wisconsin State Journal.  There used to be a competing paper called "The Capital Times."  When it went under due to apathy, our socialist ruling class started to whine about our 'progressive tradition.'

It is such a pink house-rag that locals joke the ghost of Karl Marx wanders the newspaper grounds, beating his breast and lamenting, "Мені шкода, mені шкода..."


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## Blade (Feb 11, 2014)

BryanJ62 said:


> I've had a problem with rules. My first job was Burger King. 16 years old. I was told never to eat the food. I got busted for shoving a whopper patty in my mouth. Yes, it was worth it.



I worked in a cookie factory once. There was no rule about eating the production and they would even sell it to you dirt cheap every week but there no problem with 'inventory shrinkage'. The fact was you would get sick of eating cookies really fast. Sometimes you don't need rules.:smug:


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## The Tourist (Feb 11, 2014)

Blade said:


> Sometimes you don't need rules.:smug:



Sometimes?  When has a despot ever been good for progress?  The problem with worshipping laws without question is that ultimately "obedience" becomes more important than the game.  I've seen football games come to screeching halts when the zebras call 'holding' for ever niggling grab.

Think of the chants you've heard.  "Kill the ump."  "Molon Labe."  "First we kill all the lawyers."  "Sic semper tyrannis."

Many differing times and diverse peoples and yet the same thirst for freedom.


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## BryanJ62 (Feb 11, 2014)

*Don't get me started on the onions rings. I couldn't get near one for years after that job.*


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## Gyarachu (Feb 11, 2014)

Blade said:


> I worked in a cookie factory once. There was no rule about eating the production and they would even sell it to you dirt cheap every week but there no problem with 'inventory shrinkage'. The fact was you would get sick of eating cookies really fast. Sometimes you don't need rules.:smug:



I once worked in a factory that made steering wheel columns. Unfortunately, we weren't permitted to sample the product.


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 12, 2014)

Without rules, there is no creativity, merely chaos.
Imagine your favorite sonnet.  Remove the rule of 14 lines.  Remove every rule regarding sonnets.  
All you have is a few random lines.


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## T.S.Bowman (Feb 13, 2014)

Blade said:


> I worked in a cookie factory once. There was no rule about eating the production and they would even sell it to you dirt cheap every week but there no problem with 'inventory shrinkage'. The fact was you would get sick of eating cookies really fast. Sometimes you don't need rules.:smug:



Try working in a sugar processing facility. First, you'd find out that making pure sugar is a whole lot more complicated than it seems. Then, you would realize that breathing sugar dust for 8 hours at a time, while not harmful, will definitely curb your sugar intake for a while.


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## Sam (Feb 13, 2014)

Get this thread back on-topic now or it will be closed. There will be no further warnings.


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## PiP (Feb 13, 2014)

Tettsuo said:


> http://12most.com/2012/03/13/12-striking-tendencies-creative-people/
> 
> *
> 
> Interesting list no?*


*

Yep, it is an interesting list 

#1 Are easily bored : I'm never bored. People who use boredom as an excuse are not creative.


#2 Are willing to take risks: I only take calculated risks. That said, I embrace change but only if it is of benefit and not just for the sake of it.


#3 Don’t like rules: Depends on the rules as they apply to writing.


#4 Ask “what if…”: I'm not adverse to new possibilities


#5 Make lots of mistakes: I try not to.


#6 Collaborate: I'm  a hermit


#7 Are generous: I have no problem sharing knowledge.


#8 Are independent: Yes, I'm independent to a point. However, it's important to recognize when you need help. If I have a question I always research and present possible solutions BEFORE asking for advice


#9 Experiment: Yeah, I experiment but within certain boundaries


#10 Motivate themselves: I'm self-motivated that's why I'm never bored.


#11 Work hard: Yep. I like to see results 


#12. Aren’t alone: Yep, I've heard the term "Creative Accounting" many times. Joking aside, I'm sure there are many creative people in the world. However, some are either too lazy or lack imagination. One of my friends fits this description and I want to shake her. These are the worst type of "creative people"*


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## Blade (Feb 13, 2014)

Cadence said:


> I think these traits apply to everyone to some extent or another.



Right. It is more like a top 10 list that can be used as a platform for discussion rather than as an end it itself. If you organize the world into categories, which are defined and static, the creative individual stands outside of that model. Recognized more by '*not this' *than *'this'.*:tennis:

The post above by PIP illustrates this perfectly.


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## Justin Rocket (Feb 14, 2014)

I suspect that a lot of people who say that they follow all of these rules or who say that rules are a bad thing are people who are students or young.
As a former computer security person, I've seen what happens when people think that they are a special snowflake.  On the other hand, I've seen management systems which take a stand against mistakes (it leads people to being afraid of trying new things or pushing themselves to new heights).

You might think that everyone meets the items in this list, but my experience tells me that they don't.


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## BryanJ62 (Feb 18, 2014)

*Risk taking is one of the best things in life. We've all done it. Speaking for myself failure or success didn't matter. The excitement of the Risk was all that mattered.*


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