# Poets/Writers



## Banana_Brother (May 30, 2010)

Are most poets writers? Or are more writers poets? Or do poets generally stick to poetry and writers stick to writing? It seems I can express my writing so much more eloquently in poetry than prose, but it seems a lot of good poets are good writers (or vice versa).


----------



## terrib (May 30, 2010)

Actually, I find that poets can write both, as well as songs....but not all novelist can write poetry...I know I can't...I've tried and my mind does not work like a poets. They see things differently. It's like a big freaking puzzle to me but they put it to pen and paper with ease and other poets know exactly what they are talking about while most of the time, I am out in left field. They are truly a different breed, but can title the heck out of their work I must say....


----------



## Ilasir Maroa (May 30, 2010)

I write both.  I've seen poets that were great writers, and writers who could write some good poems.  Both occasionally get into songs.  I think poetry is often "prettier" than prose, but they have very different functions.  I think Terri's comment makes poetry sound easier than it is.


----------



## Baron (May 31, 2010)

I don't think there's any general rule.  There are poets, there are writers and there are those who do both.  I write poetry and prose, as well as being into visual arts, but it tends to be mainly poetry that I post on forums.

There are many advantages that writing poetry lend to prose writing.  The use of simile and metaphor in poetry adds an understanding of depth and layering which can give an additional dimension to prose writing.  William Shakespeare used poetic meter in his plays, a device also employed by Samuel Becket.  This rhythm draws the listeners/readers in, often without them being consciously aware of the device.


----------



## The Backward OX (May 31, 2010)

_A prose writer gets tired of writing prose, and wants to be a poet.  So he begins every line with a capital letter, and keeps on writing prose_ ~ Samuel McChord Crothers.


----------



## Edgewise (May 31, 2010)

The Backward OX said:


> _A prose writer gets tired of writing prose, and wants to be a poet.  So he begins every line with a capital letter, and keeps on writing prose_ ~ Samuel McChord Crothers.


 
True.


----------



## Baron (May 31, 2010)

Edgewise said:


> True.



In some cases, perhaps.


----------



## Linton Robinson (May 31, 2010)

Exactly.
Just because so many people think hitting the return bar enough turns prose into poems doesn't mean the real thing doesn't exist.

And the funny thing is, even the prosody wannabes recognize it when they see it.


----------



## Edgewise (May 31, 2010)

lin said:


> Exactly.
> Just because so many people think hitting the return bar enough turns prose into poems doesn't mean the real thing doesn't exist.


 
You'd be hard pressed to find somebody who thinks otherwise.


----------



## Linton Robinson (May 31, 2010)

You think so?
   I can see you've never been around Literary Mary.   That proposition drew MASSSIVE flaming and fire over there.
Try telling any newbie putting their newbie emo rant-as-poem up for review that it isn't really a poem just re-ordered prose and see what you get back.


----------



## Edgewise (May 31, 2010)

I thought you had meant that the existence of prosaic psuedo-poetry doesn't mean that real poetry doesn't exist.

LitMary is a funny place.  It's essentially a gathering of Bukowski devotees.  It's also very exclusive in a de facto sense.  But I have beef with the people who run it, so there's some bias there.


----------



## Linton Robinson (May 31, 2010)

Oh, I've had a little difference with them as well.   And I'd say it's being whipped into a Father Luke cult.
Ooops, wait a minute.  I just remembered why I got kicked off this site.

Never mind.


----------



## Baron (May 31, 2010)

It's very
common 
to see a
prosaic
sentence 
broken down
to short lines
and hailed
as a poetic
masterpiece.

On another site, I had one person critique a structured and metered poem and suggest that I did exactly that with it. 

In most art there is a wide area open to personal expression and poetry is no different to any other form. There are also those who know little about the real nuances of the craft and who wouldn't know a poetic device from a battery operated vibrator. It seems to be generally assumed that an unschooled expression carries as much, or more, value as the work of someone who has studied the art. There's no doubt that natural talent exists but it's generally enhanced by learning a few of the tricks that go to make a good poem.

Poetry affords the best medium to hone the skill of show don't tell and when to use it, which bypasses a lot of the debate on that issue when it's applied to prose.


----------



## SilverMoon (May 31, 2010)

I write in both genres and agree with Rob that verse can lend great benefits to writing prose if managed subtley, creating those layers and lyrical moments dispersed equally throughout the piece.

I experience writing poety as if engaging the kaleidoscope. Color, form, movement through a compact lense. Succinct. Compactly powerful. Here I'm talking about modern poetry as opposed to "Beowulf", an Old English heroic epic poem of unknown authorship which utilizes a narrative form of sorts.

Prose has its origins in speech, so it follows that a more "natural" form of writing is used, depicting characters in a realistic manner. When writing prose I see "outlines" which need to be filled. Or, let's say, a barren ground which needs verdure. Atmosphere. To be "peopled"

Still with prose, Samual Richardson's "Clarissa", to my knowledge, is the first modern novel which is nothing more than an exchange of letters from one character to another. And the novel began from there. Begins with simplicity.

For me there are strong gears to shift when it comes to these two different forms of expression. Though, as mentioned above, the ability to write verse successfully can only enhance prose, in my opinion.


----------



## ms. vodka (Jun 1, 2010)

> Are most poets writers? Or are more writers poets? Or do poets  generally stick to poetry and writers stick to writing? It seems I can  express my writing so much more eloquently in poetry than prose, but it  seems a lot of good poets are good writers (or vice versa).



All poets are writers.  In fact, every person who writes anything could be considered a 'writer'.  Published writer is another matter.  Professional writer is still another matter yet.  Writers may find a form they are more comfortable with, be it poetry or prose.  Others may feel comfortable writing anything.  I find it odd that you separate the terms 'poet' and 'writer' as if they are different.   

As for poetry, I feel strongly that it is beyond definition.  I think that something that is cool about poetry is that it is so hard to define.  The question of what a poem is could be debated by writers until the end of time, however, I think most good writers would agree that it is not for them to decide what is or isn't a poem, but that is best left for the writer of the piece to decide.  Line breaks are a matter of device.  It is possible for short lines to work well just as much as longer lines.  What is important is what works for the particular piece.  

Anyway, those are my thoughts.


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jun 1, 2010)

Anything anybody ever wrote is a poem if they say so, as I recall.


----------



## Baron (Jun 1, 2010)

ms. vodka said:


> All poets are writers.  In fact, every person who writes anything could be considered a 'writer'.  Published writer is another matter.  Professional writer is still another matter yet.  Writers may find a form they are more comfortable with, be it poetry or prose.  Others may feel comfortable writing anything.  I find it odd that you separate the terms 'poet' and 'writer' as if they are different.
> 
> *As for poetry, I feel strongly that it is beyond definition*.  I think that something that is cool about poetry is that it is so hard to define.  The question of what a poem is could be debated by writers until the end of time, however, I think most good writers would agree that it is not for them to decide what is or isn't a poem, but that is best left for the writer of the piece to decide.  Line breaks are a matter of device.  It is possible for short lines to work well just as much as longer lines.  What is important is what works for the particular piece.
> 
> Anyway, those are my thoughts.


 
If it's beyond definition then it's beyond critique so there's little point in poetry forums, except perhaps to pose poetic, or prosaic as the case may be.  

The poet/writer is a given but I interpreted the OP to differentiate between a writer of prose and a writer of poetry.


----------



## Pete_C (Jun 1, 2010)

A writer of prose tends to take a view of something, shape and craft it, and produces an end product that can be enjoyed for its ability to convey their ideas.

A poet tends to take a view of something, misshape it and apply various rules (usually of their own creation), before wrapping the end product in misery, nailing it to their pitiful body and parading it around like a septic wound that both disgusts and intrigues in equal measure.


----------



## Patrick (Jun 1, 2010)

Pete_C said:


> A poet tends to take a view of something, misshape it and apply various rules (usually of their own creation), before wrapping the end product in misery, nailing it to their pitiful body and parading it around like a septic wound that both disgusts and intrigues in equal measure.



Stop doing self-portraits, Pete.  :wink:


----------



## ms. vodka (Jun 1, 2010)

> If it's beyond definition then it's beyond critique so there's little  point in poetry forums, except perhaps to pose poetic, or prosaic as the  case may be.



That is not necessarily so.  Although it is no more possible to define what is 'poetry' than it is to define what is 'art', it is possible for a critic to critique a piece based on what is working in a piece and what isn't.  For example, if a writer feels that the short line breaks a poet has chosen for a particular piece do not compliment the piece as a whole, they can mention that. 

If a poet writes

Apples are delicious, try
to bite 
one
without smiling.

One could say, 'oh, okay.  I see you like apples, but why?  What is it about apples that makes you smile?  Have you considered employing longer lines in the piece to increase the speed with which your reader reads?  

However, no one can 
tell another
writer
what is
or what isn't
a poem.

Even this.


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jun 1, 2010)

Like I said, you think that anything is a poem if somebody says it is.  If (as I recall) i take my grocery list and post it as poetry, then it's poetry.

As Baron suggests, that doesn't leave much.   Just declare everything poetry, admit that nobody can judge it but the writer, and move on, I guess.


----------



## Pete_C (Jun 1, 2010)

ms. vodka said:


> However, no one can
> tell another
> writer
> what is
> ...


 
I suppose in some half-hearted happy-clappy world such an argument might (and it's a big "might") hold some water. However, happily, most of us don't inhabit such a world, nor would we care to.

Because poetry is hard to define does not mean that people are unable to detect when it is absent. Such a proposition would be ludicrous. It is also the kind of thinking that encourages those without a poetic thought in thier heads to bang on at something they have no touch for, instead of diverting their energies into something else at which they may excel.


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jun 1, 2010)

What hilarious is that the poster has (had?) a website devoted to critiquing poetry.

In other words, nobody can tell the writer if whatever shit they toss on the wall is poetry or not, but can tell them how to make it better poetry.


----------



## KangTheMad (Jun 1, 2010)

Its like a square and a rectangle. All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.

All poets are writers, but not all writers are poets.


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jun 1, 2010)

Do you find it incredible that nobody said that earlier, Kang?
I held back to see who would get around to it.

"I don't write, I'm a poet.  Are you a painter or an artist?"


----------



## ms. vodka (Jun 1, 2010)

I never said you cannot _critique_ poetry, or that you cannot say whether you think a poem is working or not.  I simply said that, if a writer writes something and says it's a poem, it is.  

That doesn't mean anyone has to think the poem is _good_.

If a writer does not have ultimate choice as to what their piece is, how then would you define poetry?  Does a poem have a certain amount of lines?  Must it employ meter and rhythm?  Should it rhyme?  

Who here, then, can tell me _exactly_ what makes a poem a poem?


----------



## Patrick (Jun 1, 2010)

ms. vodka said:


> I never said you cannot _critique_ poetry, or that you cannot say whether you think a poem is working or not.  I simply said that, if a writer writes something and says it's a poem, it is.
> 
> That doesn't mean anyone has to think the poem is _good_.
> 
> ...



While there may be no objective standard to appeal to, there are certain conventions we've agreed upon. They're not rules, but without a framework to begin with, you can just basically call anything poetry. Just because there is no perfect poem floating around in a Platonian sense doesn't mean there aren't things we've agreed upon.


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jun 1, 2010)

> I never said you cannot _critique_ poetry, or that you cannot saywhether you think a poem is working or not. I simply said that, if awriter writes something and says it's a poem, it is.
> 
> That doesn't mean anyone has to think the poem is _good_.



Ah, of course.  Anything somebody says it a poem is a poem and nobody can say them nay.

But YOU can tell them if it's GOOD or not.

Makes perfect sense, good being so well defined.

What if the writer says,  "This is a good poem"?
Why are you qualified to tell them it's not?

Artistic arrogance by injection?  Divine right?


----------



## ms. vodka (Jun 1, 2010)

> Ah, of course.  Anything somebody says it a poem is a poem and nobody  can say them nay.
> 
> But YOU can tell them if it's GOOD or not.
> 
> ...



Well, actually, I don't often speak in terms of 'good' or 'bad' in regard to poetry.  Mostly I like to speak in terms of what is working and what isn't.  I think, that what is good and what isn't depends on the eye of the beholder.  If I were to tell someone their poem wasn't good, however, I would be ready to tell them why I thought that.  



> While there may be no objective standard to appeal to, there are certain  conventions we've agreed upon. They're not rules, but without a  framework to begin with, you can just basically call anything poetry.  Just because there is no perfect poem floating around in a Platonian  sense doesn't mean there aren't things we've agreed upon.



Could you tell me then, what it is we, as writers, have 'agreed upon'?  

If we cannot define 'poem', then how in the world can any of us say we know what a poem is or isn't?

​


> *Introduction to Poetry*
> 
> *Billy Collins*
> 
> ...


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jun 1, 2010)

> Well, actually, I don't often speak in terms of 'good' or 'bad' in regard to poetry.



Well, actually, yes you do.  I've seen it and thought it was absurd.   More to the point, you just did.




> I think, that what is good and what isn't depends on the eye of the beholder.



But whether or not it's a poem instead of just a bunch of syllables at random or a grocery list is NOT in the eye of the beholder, but a decree by the person who claims it as a poem?
Interesting distincion.




> If I were to tell someone their poem wasn't good, however, I would be ready to tell them why I thought that.



But if I tell somebody why I think them taking an encyclopedia entry and hitting a bunch of hard returns in the line is not a poem, I'm wrong.   Another interesting distinction.

Which seems to come down to you being the arbiter.  Which is pretty silly.   

And actually, I kind of doubt it.  You can't even pin down on why you can say a poem is bad, but can't say it isn't a poem.


----------



## ms. vodka (Jun 1, 2010)

I said that I don't often speak in terms of good or bad.  Not that I never do.  I am moved to irritation sometimes, also.  I try, whenever possible, to be constructive though.  

There is a difference between saying what is or isn't a poem and constructive criticism.  That is blatantly obvious.  Offering critique and suggestions is not and will never be the same as telling someone whether or not what they've written is actually a poem.

Here, check this out.  

http://www.123helpme.com/view.asp?id=9042

Like I said, when you can define 'poem' we will all know how to tell whether or not we can call what we write poetry.


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jun 1, 2010)

> There is a difference between saying what is or isn't a poem and constructive criticism.



Oh, now it's "constructive criticism"?  Before it was "bad".  Little different matter.

So when are you going to define "good", since you profess to be qualified to judge good and bad?

"It's not a laundry list unless the writer changes his mind about it being a poem, but it's good, and can be improved on."
Is that pretty much your point?
Does that make sense to you?


----------



## ppsage (Jun 1, 2010)

Robert Penn Warren is the *only* writer to win Pulitzers for novel (All The King's Men) and poetry (twice!) I can attest that he's an extraordinary novelist, having read two. I preferred _The Cave _to _King's Men_ but would definitely take either. Probably find another. Don't know about his poetry yet, but I suppose it can't be too awful. John Updike won two Pulitzers for fiction and has maybe a dozen volumes of poetry published. I have read/listened some of his poetry and liked it. Bukowski wrote both, in which I've read with a degree of appreciation. Poe did very well in both, and what passed for journalism then as well. While natural inclination must have considerable effect, I'd consider that for a lot of writers, _practice makes perfect_, it's whatever they put their minds to, or what they get a degree of commercial success at. (Sylvia Plath, had to find at least one female.) Which is all pretty readily discernable, with even only a dim distinction between the forms. pp


----------



## Pawn (Jun 2, 2010)

The words good, bad and poem are equally meaningless. Calling bunk a poem and a poem bunk are not significantly different activities. We're all just jurors in the dock.


----------



## alanmt (Jun 2, 2010)

*For Lin*
spinach, pasta, loaf of bread
skim milk, cheese, nondairy spread
beef roast
chicken thighs
tall kitchen bags with ties
doughnuts 
peanuts
pine nuts too
potato chips
dill & ranch dips
mountain dew
diapers and formula
tooth paste and lean cuisines
lotto tickets at the checkout
pay the lady and then get out.


----------



## Pawn (Jun 2, 2010)

*This Is Just To Say*

I have eaten
the plums
that were in
the icebox

and which
you were probably
saving
for breakfast

Forgive me
they were delicious
so sweet
and so cold


_~ WCW_


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jun 2, 2010)

> The words good, bad and poem are equally meaningless.



Of course they have meaning.    People know it when they hear them.  That's what language is all about.

But for the purpose of this discussion, people might actually beleive that "poem" is not really definable other than by personal edict, or not.  
And they might beleive that "good" is not really definable other than by personal edict.

But they generally line up on one side or the other, not straddle.   If nobody can say what a poem is or isn't, when why can somebody say if it's good or not?

Of what possible use would it be to critique or evaluate or "constructively criticize" that grocery list?


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jun 2, 2010)

The other consideration is more populist:

If I can convert prose to poetry with a few strikes of a return key,  then what's the point?


----------



## JosephB (Jun 2, 2010)

No one's really tried to define what a poem is, that I can see. It seems like it's falling under the old "I know it when I see it" thing. Same deal with whether on not it's any good. All highly subjective. But I suppose you could argue about it until the cows come home, if you wanted to.


----------



## alanmt (Jun 2, 2010)

lin said:


> Of what possible use would it be to critique or evaluate or "constructively criticize" that grocery list?


 
I agree.

My use of poetic conventions is irreproachable and my poem's statement on the banality of suburban living is fresh and biting.


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jun 2, 2010)

It pales in comparison to my _magnum opus_, "Manhattan Telephone Directory"


----------



## Baron (Jun 3, 2010)

Pawn said:


> The words good, bad and poem are equally meaningless. Calling bunk a poem and a poem bunk are not significantly different activities. We're all just jurors in the dock.


 
It seems that everyone will apply the definition that best pleases them when it comes to poetry.  From the perspective of the forums, it's up to the person posting to decide what definition to accept or reject from those who critique.  

When it comes to getting published it's a different story.  Broad definitions are fine if they're being offered to someone just writing for their own amusement.  They don't necessarily do any favours to the person who wants to get work taken seriously and is looking for guidance.  Faber is probably the major mainstream publisher of poetry and it's certain that much of what is defined as poetry on certain forums is not going to meet their criteria if submitted for publication.


----------



## MaggieG (Jun 3, 2010)

Baron said:


> It seems that everyone will apply the definition that best pleases them when it comes to poetry.  From the perspective of the forums, it's up to the person posting to decide what definition to accept or reject from those who critique.
> 
> When it comes to getting published it's a different story.  Broad definitions are fine if they're being offered to someone just writing for their own amusement.  They don't necessarily do any favours to the person who wants to get work taken seriously and is looking for guidance.  Faber is probably the major mainstream publisher of poetry and it's certain that much of what is defined as poetry on certain forums is not going to meet their criteria if submitted for publication.



But how many times have we seen bad writing published ? I have tossed many a book across the room because I thought it sucked, often screaming as I do it, "Who published this garbage ?" Does that mean there is not a criteria to be met with publishers ? Absolutely not. There is a check off list, so to speak. If the reading public is a box of jurors, then publishers are court justices, and though they might make less bad judgements, they still make'em.


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jun 3, 2010)

To say the least.

There's sort of a stock reply to the artistic statement, "Nobody can define of evaluate what I do but myself."

It's along the lines of, "Yep.  You're stuck with it."


----------



## MaggieG (Jun 3, 2010)

lin said:


> To say the least.
> 
> There's sort of a stock reply to the artistic statement, "Nobody can define of evaluate what I do but myself."
> 
> It's along the lines of, "Yep.  You're stuck with it."



Hun 

I can tell you this only applies to me. I don't expect anyone else to follow my rules. I have seen pieces that would make a grade schooler scream because of the grammatical, punctual, syntax , blah blah blah errors, and the " whats, whys, and whens "  of the writing drop my jaw. It has went vice versa as well. The structure, and all that blew me away with its perfection, but the content ran the gammut from "who cares" to out, and out vomit. ( seriously... lol ) 

For me good solid writing is to achieve the middle ground.  To capture both ? Now that is a masterpiece, art.


----------



## ms. vodka (Jun 3, 2010)

I still have yet to see anyone define poetry.

Everything in this stupid, beautiful, ugly, violent, serene, comic, tragic world is a poem.

Critique away.


----------



## ppsage (Jun 4, 2010)

ms. vodka said:


> I still have yet to see anyone define poetry.
> 
> Everything in this stupid, beautiful, ugly, violent, serene, comic, tragic world is a poem.
> 
> Critique away.


 
You left out intelligence?


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jun 4, 2010)

Everything is a poem.  The garbage can.  My turds.   And can be critiqued as poetry.   Great.
Notice that now you have gone from saying "Anything a writer says is a poem is a poem"  to, essentialy, "Ms Vodka says everything is a poem."  You have seized what you were saying is the perogative of the poet--to create something and call it  a poem.  

So there is nothing that is not a poem.   But some can be said to be good or bad at it.

Fascinating.   So why have hoitty-toity poetry websites?   Why not just walk around the world saying, "That rotting carcass is a bad poem.  It stinks"

Well, I'll quite pulling your wings off.   The reason you find yourself straddled across this divide is because you subscribe to two conflicting belief structures.  Ideologies, more like.   Most poet wannabes do.

1.  Anything a self-proclaimed poet says is a poem is a poem.  Vomiting, raping a child, whatever.  Because otherwise there are many who might say that just because some street trash who heard about Bukowski and wants to be something more than a hustler spews out some words doesn't really make it a poem, just some rant or grafitti.  And you can't have that, can you?

2.  Like most middle class white girls who took humanity in college, you feel you know what art and poetry and whatnot are all about.  If it turns out you can't paint anything that looks like anything, you can slash paint or piss or whatever on the wall and be a concept painter.  Or just stab yourself on camera and call it an installation. 
But you are an excellent judge of other people's work, right?  You KNOW that art is and what's good and band and what should be and what not should be.  It's a sort of birthright.

So here you are with the two in conflict.   And start realizing the hole you're digging looks a little silly.  So suddenly everybody is a poet, everything is a poem, everybody is a critic,  all God's chillen got talent.  But some more than others, or course. But we can't really say that....

And so on.   It's kind of like liberals who don't like rogue states killing off minorities, but also can't object to anything done by Jewish states.... so they end up creating whole schools of thought to work it out.

Tough one.


----------



## MaggieG (Jun 4, 2010)

> Everything is a poem. The garbage can. My turds. And can be critiqued as poetry. Great.



I just wanted to interrupt for a moment, and say I woke up highly pissed off. This *ahem* "poem" of thoughts made me spit coffee from laughing, and greatly improved my mood. 

Thanks for that little "masterpiece".   *still laughing*


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jun 4, 2010)

That's what we artists have to put up with.
We post our treasured turds only to have people spit and laugh.


----------



## MaggieG (Jun 4, 2010)

lin said:


> That's what we artists have to put up with.
> We post our treasured turds only to have people spit and laugh.


 
Well Darlin ... 

To put it in my good old fashioned peckerwood kinda way ,

You shit gold with that one !  LOL


----------



## Baron (Jun 4, 2010)

I am not trying
to be a realistic
attempt at haiku


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jun 4, 2010)

LOL

I wrote a piece once on "Round-eye Zen".   The whole idea that there is "Zen" in golf and real estate investment and such.  It becomes an American gloss, like Mr. Miyagi in "Karate Kid" and his Karate philsophies.  People say "It's Zen" when they might just as easily say "it's surrealism"  or "it's existential".

And I also see what I might call "Gringo Haiku".  Based on syllable count and nothing more.  All the conventions, like nature and the reflexiveness of the last line gone, in fact never known about.   
Then you get your purists who DO know about all that stuff and go on an on about being more real and Japanese than other writers...while assuming that 17 syllables of English is in some way anything close to what 17 pictograms represent to the sensibility of the viewer.

I hadn't thought about in this discussion, but if "everything's a poem", is "everything a haiku?"  is "everything a sonnet"?    Is there anybody who can dare to contradict the poet himself if he declares that his random restructuring of  the words on the first page of a porn novel are a "Phallcian Sonnet"?


----------



## moderan (Jun 4, 2010)

Wouldn't that be gaijin haiku? Just sayin'...Olly actually had a few syllables about that in the haiku thread. Especially after I dared to desecrate it by posting a "poem" of 7-5-7 *laughs* because I is a troublemaker, y'know?


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jun 4, 2010)

It was a poem about a jetliner?


----------



## moderan (Jun 4, 2010)

I don't think so...just had that syllable count. *headscratch* dunno why I didn't think of jetliner though. I like the idea of a "Phallacian Sonnet". That's truly some wit there.
The misunderstandings you wrote of work both ways though...how many times have you seen something that got lost in translation from English to Japanese (just as an example)? Or even from AmEnglish to English? The cultural divide sometimes isn't very broad, but the rifts are deep.


----------



## Wolfson (Jun 4, 2010)

Poetry is a tough call. Mostly because (as is apparent here) no one can agree on what it really is. I took an English class where the instructor essentially said poetry takes a thought and boils it down to raw imagery. I've written poems and lyrics (in fact, I think the best lyrics can stand alone without the music as poetry), and I've written prose.

Heh. Sadly, there are differences...

Since I wrote music long before getting into stories, I drove my editor crazy in the beginning by trying to write short stories with the same techniques I'd use to make a song work. I'd think it was brilliant. He'd come back at me and rip it to shreds. Eventually I learned to be more subtle about it.

And I always agreed with Tommy Smothers: The rhyme for 'orenge' _is_, in fact 'door hinge'.


----------



## Baron (Jun 4, 2010)

I wonder, in the light of ideas being put forward here, if Sylvia Plath would have considered her time at Cambridge a waste?


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jun 4, 2010)

> how many times have you seen something that got lost in translation from English to Japanese



Oh, I've got a great collection of Sino/American goodies.

One of my absolute favorites was in Taipei in the sixties, where you'd see stores with names like Roliat    or  Rolrap Beauty.

Chinese can be written left to right or right to left, of course, and apparently people would be inside a store looking at the window and copy the letters down backwards.
There was a  gnawefac near my school  I used to get shirts made at a place called Roliat Tailor.   
It was a block down from a place called "Young Man's Social and Familiar Club".


----------



## JosephB (Jun 4, 2010)

When I was working on a big box private label program for Tiawanese made furniture, we saw some really funny things in the original instruction manuals. One of my favorites was:

"Take hammer and strike it some blows."

I think the best one was a warning sticker I saw on a pellet gun:

"Do not aim at creature."


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jun 4, 2010)

Good advice.  Pellets are useless against creatures.   They fear fire, electricity and _femmes fatale_.


----------



## MaggieG (Jun 7, 2010)

lin said:


> Oh, I've got a great collection of Sino/American goodies.
> 
> One of my absolute favorites was in Taipei in the sixties, where you'd see stores with names like Roliat    or  Rolrap Beauty.
> 
> ...



lin, you have actually peeked my curiosity about something. My father spoke fluent Japanese, some Mandarin, and Korean. He said the thing that he had to learn about the languages was that they had a picture quality , and the tone in which you spoke the words implied what was being done with the pictures. Is that fairly accurate, or just a white man's take on it ?


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jun 7, 2010)

I know exactly what he means. (And it's one reason I don't take haiku in English very seriously.)

Japanese has no tonal significance.  Chinese does.   Saying the same syllable with a rising inflection or "questioning" tone or sharp tone can make the word have radically different meanings.  It's a BIG pain in the ass.
On the other hand there is almost no conjugation.  Which is cool.

The "dialects" of Chinese, like Madarin and Cantonese are not dialects in the sense that Br Rabbit is in dialect.  They are as different as French and Italian.  For instance the Cantonese city name Kowloon would be like   Jou Loong in Mandarin.   Nine dragons.  But they all read the same.  Which helps.   

There are similarities between the old system of written Japanese and Chinese and a lot of the characters are identical, but it's not like a Chinese can read a Japanese newspaper.


----------



## MaggieG (Jun 7, 2010)

lin said:


> I know exactly what he means. (And it's one reason I don't take haiku in English very seriously.)
> 
> Japanese has no tonal significance.  Chinese does.   Saying the same syllable with a rising inflection or "questioning" tone or sharp tone can make the word have radically different meanings.  It's a BIG pain in the ass.
> On the other hand there is almost no conjugation.  Which is cool.
> ...



Yes...  he said it was something he saw more in China as opposed to Japan. He described Japanese as a very " bare bones " language to learn . But it is the "subtleties" of the language that would trip a foreigner up every time. He also explained to me about "Chinese" languages. That they are quite separate from one another. He also told me that one of the worst insults you could give a Japanese man is calling him crazy. He told me he never found out why.  Is that true ?


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jun 7, 2010)

No idea.  But based on the homicidal/suicidal mania that seems to float about two layers under the placid classic Japanese character, I wouldn't be surprised.  

Yeah, Japanese is also very uninflected.  So with minimal conjugation, no intonation weirdness, and adoption of a western-style spell-out writing alongside the kata,  it just could be the perfect language.


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jun 7, 2010)

Fort Carson????   Jesus.    
And I speak as a serial C. Springs resident.  Even alumnus.  Go T-Birds.


----------



## MaggieG (Jun 7, 2010)

lin said:


> Fort Carson????   Jesus.
> And I speak as a serial C. Springs resident.  Even alumnus.  Go T-Birds.




LOL ! Yeah The Fourth ID was moved out here last summer.  ( which would include my husband lol )


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jun 7, 2010)

It's lovely outside the Bluffs.   How you liking the Springs?


----------



## MaggieG (Jun 7, 2010)

lin said:


> It's lovely outside the Bluffs.   How you liking the Springs?



Welllllll   lol It's a long story so bear with me. I broke my knee ( spider-fractured it , disconnecting both muscles from the cap ) 1 week before we PSCed out here. My poor daughter had to drive here from Hood ( with only a permit LOL ! ) Lets just say thank GOD for vicadin ! Little did I know that the altitude was going to swell my left leg up like an elephant's leg.  It took 2 months to get into an Army doctor so by that time, my leg was a complete mess. They had to re-break the knee, add about a pound of hardware, and strap me back into a brace from hell just in time for Colorado's winter to start. It has been a long, and painful winter.  I, many of times, wondered about my stopping the flow of vicadin. ( I should have let it shower like Colorado snow ! lol , but I abhor drugs ! ) 

All in all this is a stunning state to look at even when you depressed, in pain, and are contemplating nose diving off of Pikes Peak !  LOL


----------



## Linton Robinson (Jun 7, 2010)

I'll take that as,  "Things suck, but at least I'm not at Hood anymore."


You got the whole thing ass-backward, by the way.   People come to Colorado, break their knee and go home in a cast.


----------



## MaggieG (Jun 7, 2010)

lin said:


> I'll take that as,  "Things suck, but at least I'm not at Hood anymore."
> 
> 
> You got the whole thing ass-backward, by the way.   People come to Colorado, break their knee and go home in a cast.



Pretty much and Welcome to the friggin Army !  *still laughing* 

Truthfully this place is extremely lovely. I would never take for granted this view.


----------

