# Contributory Publishing Deal?



## Trollheart (Nov 6, 2019)

Need your help here guys, especially those who are well versed in the world of publishing.
My heart is racing as I just received a publishing contract for one of my longer short stories, which I reckon these guys intend to publish as a book. Novella I guess - about 50,000 words. They seem very enthused about it. However they're offering me a contributory contract, which means I have to stump up £2,300 as a one-time payment.

Does this sound right, and has anyone any experience of doing this? I don't make much money, being a fulltime carer, and that's a hell of a lot of money for me to find. I'd have to ask family for help, and that's fine if it's a loan against sales, that I can pay back to them later. But if it just disappears into a black hole and I never see anything back from it, then I'll be very upset.

I know nobody can predict how a book will sell, but is this the way to go? Or, since these people expressed interest in the story/book, should I look further afield to see if some other publisher will take it on without asking me for money? If I decline this opportunity am I losing my only chance at publication or should I not move too hastily?

Any help very much appreciated.
Thanks
TH


----------



## PiP (Nov 6, 2019)

Google Vanity Publishing. The author should not be paying to have their book published.


----------



## PiP (Nov 6, 2019)

Also check out this thread
https://www.writingforums.com/threa...ervices-to-Avoid!?highlight=vanity+publishing


----------



## Trollheart (Nov 6, 2019)

Thanks guys. This is what rankled with me. They say it's "to help offset publication costs", but really, why should I be paying to get my work published? One thing if there was, somehow, a guaranteed return promised, but when the future of my writing would be down to chance, that money could end up disappearing forever.

Does this, though, put me in a stronger position? If I now go to another publisher and tell them the story was not rejected but actually accepted by these guys, but that I didn't like their terms, do I have a better chance of them taking it? Or, if I go back to the publisher  here and explain I can't afford the fee and might as well take it to another publisher, would that be likely to make them rethink? If they're not just trying to blow sunshine up my skirt and actually like (and want) the story, would they be prepared to lose it for a few grand which they could probably likely easily recoup on sales? They won't have offered, I would imagine, a publishing contract to me without expecting it will sell, so while they're obviously just covering themselves are they going to pass up on what might be an earner for them and let me take this elsewhere?

Again, any advice very much appreciated. Kind of feel like I've been on top of the world momentarily, only to find myself falling and being brought back down to earth.


----------



## SueC (Nov 6, 2019)

Tread carefully, my friend. I had a deal a couple of years ago, where a publisher, who only dealt with authors through email, took me all the way past designing the cover, when I got an email saying they were in financial trouble and to get my book "back" from them, I had to pay over $700. They even gave a time frame before the deal would be null and void. I couldn't afford that kind of money, for something that was rightfully mine, so I had to pass. About a year later, the same title, *with my name* on it, appeared on Amazon as a Kindle Book, and they were asking an outrageous amount ($10) for an unknown author. I hired an attorney and through a lot of back and forth, my rights were reinstated. I then contacted Amazon and was able to convince them that the publisher - All Classic Publishing - did not submit the book in good faith, that I had received no money from them on any ebook sales, and it was removed from their website.

I'm not saying this is the same as your situation, but whenever up front money is involved, my hackles go up. Be sure to do research on the publisher. I contacted the Better Business Bureau and the Chamber of Commerce in the city in California where All Classic was from, and no one could confirm a publishing company was even located at that address, but I my attorney did send them a letter (requesting signature) there, saying if they did not reinstate my right with ten days, the rights would automatically revert back to me. Someone on their end signed, but then the opened letter was returned, as if no one was there. So strange. Wish I had done research before I got into that mess!

Good luck and let us know what you find out.


----------



## Trollheart (Nov 6, 2019)

Thanks Sue.
Yeah, I feel I'm going to try the first option, which is to write back to them and explain I can't accept the terms and see if they'll offer me a contract on which I don't have to put up any cash, then if they don't I'll look into other publishers. It seems almost counter-intuitive anyway to pay someone to publish your material. If it's that good, shouldn't they have faith in you and be prepared to shoulder the publication financial burden? Isn't that, after all, what publishers do? 

Anyhow, I'll see if threatening to take the story does anything, and if not then I'll probably just thank them and part company with them. Without a signed contract they have no rights to my work, would that be correct? Then I can take it to whichever publisher I prefer.

Thanks again
TH

Note: this is their website, in case anyone wants to look into them.
www.austinmacauley.com


----------



## Cephus (Nov 6, 2019)

No. Never, ever, ever, ever, ever pay a red cent for publication. Money always flows to the author, never away. This is a scam.


----------



## Trollheart (Nov 6, 2019)

If anyone wants to see it, I can also post copies of the cover letter and the page of the contract which asks for the "partial payment"...

They say a lot in the covering letter that seems to indicate they appreciate my writing, though of course that could all be part of the attempt to relieve me of my money. In fairness, they did mention this contributory contract from the beginning as being a possibility, so I wouldn't quite think it's a scam, but I do think they're hedging their bets a little too much and I certainly don't fancy parting with my hard-earned, which I don't even have anyway.


----------



## Deleted member 56686 (Nov 6, 2019)

You might want to look at this, Trolls. Let's just say that this guy is not Austin's biggest fan

https://jerichowriters.com/austin-macauley/


----------



## PiP (Nov 6, 2019)

Also check out comments in this forum
https://www.writingforums.com/forums/114-The-Good-The-Bad-and-The-Ugly


----------



## Trollheart (Nov 6, 2019)

Thanks for that, Musty. That was a very enlightening - if depressing - read, but it looks like it saved me from making a fool of myself. I kind of wasn't going to go ahead anyway - don't have the money and if I had I don't think I'd want to spend it - but that article went a long way to making up my mind for me.

I'm going to compose a polite but firm refusal letter and send their contract back to them, unsigned of course. If anyone would care to look over it when it's written I would appreciate it. 

I'm assuming that since, according to that piece, they're not actually real publishers they can't publish my work anywhere? Or do I need to advise them of that, threatening the old legal action if they do? They only have email attachments but still, I wouldn't want to see them using my work. Mind you, if it costs them and I'm not about to shell out that cash then it seems from what I read that they won't be putting their hand in their pocket, but I'd like to be sure.

Thanks again, to you and everyone else here who gave me advice.
TH


----------



## Trollheart (Nov 6, 2019)

Here's a draft of the letter. If anyone has any comments on it before I print it please let me know. I've tried not to be too confrontational and yet firm in my refusal. Thanks to any who reads it, thanks for any advice.

Wednesday, November 6 2019

Austin MacAuley Publishers
25 Canada Square
Canary Wharf
London E14 5LQ

Attn: Katie Idle, Alexander Holiday, Jade Robertson

Re: “A Harmless Old Man” (also “The Yellow Windows of the Evening Train” and “Behind the Mask”)

Dear Sirs and Madams,

Thank you for your interest in my writings, as detailed above, and for the publishing contract you sent to me by post, which I received this morning. I was somewhat surprised, firstly to be successful with my first submission (and the hint that my other two were also being considered for later publication) but secondly that you had intended to publish “A Harmless Old Man” as a book. Odd, as this is more a long short story, running only to 50,000 words, hardly sufficient to qualify as a book, ie a novel. I had expected that, were any of my works (especially this one) selected, it or they would be published perhaps as part of a collection. And yet you seem to intend to publish this as a book. Who, I wonder, is likely to pay for a book that only fills fifty-odd pages when printed?

I was rather disappointed (though I had expected as much) that you are offering me a “contributory contract”, which entails my outlaying what is, to me, in my circumstances, a rather large amount of money. I understand when you say that this is to help defray publishing and marketing expenses, but quite frankly, I doubt other reputable publishing houses such as Penguin or Random House use this model. I also understand that you would be taking a risk by publishing an unknown author, but then, isn't that the risk every publiishing house takes anyway? Nobody is famous from the first; every writer had to start somewhere, and I'm willing to bet that even the likes of Stephen King or Clive Barker or, hell, Charles Dickens, were not asked to pay to have their first works published!

My brief but illuminating investigations into your company and its practices have not given me any confidence in your reputation or ability as a firm who could best serve my interests, and I have no wish to join in “a partnership” with you, as you put it. I regret to inform you therefore that I am unable – indeed, quite unwilling - to accept your offer. I would also point out that I believe it is disingenuous of you to expect me to pay to have my writing published. If my writing is good enough – and it may very well not be – I believe it will stand on its own merits, and will hopefully eventually find publication with someone who is willing to invest their capital in my future, believing it to their advantage to do so, and who will not ask me to pay for the privilege. If not, then perhaps I will look into self-publishing. I am not, however, so desperate to see my name in print that I would pay someone like yourselves to achieve that. Whether I am a good writer or not will only be proven in time – and given the ulterior motives behind your praise for my stories I cannot help but doubt its sincerity – but I have my integrity, and will never allow this to be compromised.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind you that any and all manuscripts already sent to you remain my own exclusive copyright, and should not be published, disseminated or altered in any form without my express written permission.

I thank you for your time, but respectfully decline your offer.
Yours Faithfully,

Deryck O'Byrne.


----------



## Ma'am (Nov 6, 2019)

Honestly, I'd just block them. There's really no point talking to scammers and there are tons of them out there. Good job asking BEFORE you signed a contract or sent them any money, though. So many authors only think of that _after_ the damage is already done.
 :champagne:


----------



## Trollheart (Nov 6, 2019)

I know what you mean, but from what I read of them in that article I don't want to give them any quasi-legal basis to demand money, eg you never returned your contract so we took it that you accepted. I want them to be in no doubt that, sorry guys, it's a NO from me. I also want to piss them off a little, showing them that I know what they're up to, while couching that in vague enough terms that they can't threaten to go legal on me.


----------



## Cephus (Nov 6, 2019)

Trollheart said:


> I know what you mean, but from what I read of them in that article I don't want to give them any quasi-legal basis to demand money, eg you never returned your contract so we took it that you accepted. I want them to be in no doubt that, sorry guys, it's a NO from me. I also want to piss them off a little, showing them that I know what they're up to, while couching that in vague enough terms that they can't threaten to go legal on me.



It doesn't work that way. Until they get a signed contract, they have no contract. They can't just assume you agree. It would never stand up in court. They're just trying to scam you and I'm sure they're doing the same thing to 100 other people right now. They have no leg to stand on, legal or otherwise. They'll just go on to the next hopeful sucker. They don't care about your response.


----------



## Ralph Rotten (Nov 6, 2019)

Trollheart said:


> Need your help here guys, especially those who are well versed in the world of publishing.
> My heart is racing as I just received a publishing contract for one of my longer short stories, which I reckon these guys intend to publish as a book. Novella I guess - about 50,000 words. They seem very enthused about it. However they're offering me a contributory contract, which means I have to stump up £2,300 as a one-time payment.
> 
> Does this sound right, and has anyone any experience of doing this? I don't make much money, being a fulltime carer, and that's a hell of a lot of money for me to find. I'd have to ask family for help, and that's fine if it's a loan against sales, that I can pay back to them later. But if it just disappears into a black hole and I never see anything back from it, then I'll be very upset.
> ...




What you are describing is known as a "Vanity Press."
Run, don't walk, away from these guys.
Avoid them like the plague.


----------



## Trollheart (Nov 6, 2019)

Thanks for that Ralph. The guys and gals here have made me aware of how fake it is, and I'll be returning the unsigned contract tomorrow. 

I'll also be cancelling that purchase of the Maserati, but sure, you can't have everything, right? :lol:


----------



## luckyscars (Nov 6, 2019)

If they're that enthusiastic, they should be more than happy to pay you. If they won't, they're scammers. If they can't, they're poor publishers.

This is an easy one. Don't bother sending polite letters, this is a bridge you want to burn. Tell them to fuck off.


----------



## Moose.H (Nov 7, 2019)

I believe that the situation swings both ways. My first book had a deal that they withdrew due to bookshops unilaterally changing their terms of payment (the tail was wagging the dog). They went onto govt printing. I fully understood their following offer some months down the line for a pay to publish. Not a lot but being broke I could not indulge. I had some colleagues beta proof my work and it changed significantly enough for a UK publisher published it for me. A huge lesson on set outs and formats etc. But it made me appreciate the huge investment of time needed to get a book to print. I had done the graphs and illustrations myself, not needing complex pictures.

Take my second book. I have a massive amount of time invested in its production, well critiqued to this point it still has a way to go. The pictures need professional illustration. I know that there will still be a lot of work for an editor.  The publishing costs include graphics cheaper than the amount my very slack artist has quoted. I would like to stay with my illustrator but she is doing me no favours and I have missed my more important deadlines.

Publishers have a vast volume of manuscripts being submitted only a precious few make the cut and even fewer succeed to make money. This is against slow paying book stores. They don't go in much for further risk on new genres and authors unless you have a brilliant topic well edited and presented.

Saying that - you need to set your goals and priorities. Pay and pray or have the validation that others have faith in your work and presentation enough to back you. If it is money then you have to tick all the boxes so that they can make money off your work.


----------



## Trollheart (Nov 7, 2019)

Moose.H said:


> I believe that the situation swings both ways. My first book had a deal that they withdrew due to bookshops unilaterally changing their terms of payment (the tail was wagging the dog). They went onto govt printing. I fully understood their following offer some months down the line for a pay to publish. Not a lot but being broke I could not indulge. I had some colleagues beta proof my work and it changed significantly enough for a UK publisher published it for me. A huge lesson on set outs and formats etc. But it made me appreciate the huge investment of time needed to get a book to print. I had done the graphs and illustrations myself, not needing complex pictures.
> 
> Take my second book. I have a massive amount of time invested in its production, well critiqued to this point it still has a way to go. The pictures need professional illustration. I know that there will still be a lot of work for an editor.  The publishing costs include graphics cheaper than the amount my very slack artist has quoted. I would like to stay with my illustrator but she is doing me no favours and I have missed my more important deadlines.
> 
> ...



Yes but that's not the point. If you read that article it clearly shows that they only take your money, print a few copies (maybe even just one for you) and do no marketing or promotion whatsoever. They do what you could do yourself for a much cheaper price, and there's no chance that your book will sell, unless by freak chance, assuming they've actually printed up enough and shown them to or submitted them to someone. They're just playing on people's dreams to fleece them and that is not cool.


----------



## Ralph Rotten (Nov 7, 2019)

Real publishers may ask you to do a lotta things (social media campaigns, book signings, interviews, helping market the book...) but they will never ask you for money.


----------



## luckyscars (Nov 7, 2019)

The fact that there is even a couple people questioning this is scary. It’s a scam. Period.


----------



## Cephus (Nov 7, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> The fact that there is even a couple people questioning this is scary. It’s a scam. Period.



It just goes to show that there's a sucker born every minute. If there wasn't, these kinds of scams wouldn't exist.


----------



## luckyscars (Nov 7, 2019)

Moose.H said:


> I believe that the situation swings both ways. My first book had a deal that they withdrew due to bookshops unilaterally changing their terms of payment (the tail was wagging the dog). They went onto govt printing. I fully understood their following offer some months down the line for a pay to publish. Not a lot but being broke I could not indulge. I had some colleagues beta proof my work and it changed significantly enough for a UK publisher published it for me. A huge lesson on set outs and formats etc. But it made me appreciate the huge investment of time needed to get a book to print. I had done the graphs and illustrations myself, not needing complex pictures.
> 
> Take my second book. I have a massive amount of time invested in its production, well critiqued to this point it still has a way to go. The pictures need professional illustration. I know that there will still be a lot of work for an editor.  The publishing costs include graphics cheaper than the amount my very slack artist has quoted. I would like to stay with my illustrator but she is doing me no favours and I have missed my more important deadlines.
> 
> ...



This is just nonsense.

Publishers are not some charity suffering to do divine work. They are a business. They make money - or try to - by contracting product (books) and reselling it at some level of profit either to bookstores or directly to readers.

If this wasn't books we were talking about but coffee beans, we wouldn't be sympathizing with Starbucks if they tried to get some newly-sourced Guatemalan bean farmers to start paying _them _for the privilege of making espressos for _them_ to sell on the basis of 'there's just so much coffee around these days' and 'it's a risk' . 

We would be talking about how exploitative and unethical such an idea is. We would be agreeing that risk is an inherent part of business (because it is) and that if a company is unable or unwilling to deal with risk without outsourcing it to somebody else, they are no longer a business but some variety of parasitic disease. We would be comfortable with the reality that if Starbucks can no longer afford to pay its suppliers it probably has lost the right to call itself a business, much less a responsible one.

Bottom line: People can fuck off when it comes to weeping over the plight of publishers, like they're benevolent capitalists just because they sell books instead of oil or ivory tusks. I am all for supporting our publishing industry, especially independents: I have personally contributed stories that have been published for zero dollars in pay because I recognize the 'publisher' wasn't really a commercial enterprise. But there's a MASSIVE difference between giving something away for free on honest terms to an organization that openly admits it isn't about making money in the first place (like your average college magazine) and _paying _in real money to carry risk that the 'business' in question isn't willing to absorb. 

Charging authors to publish material is either a scam or a sign of incompetence. It doesn't swing both ways.


----------



## Trollheart (Nov 8, 2019)

I absolutely agree with Lucky, which was one of the lines I put into the letter (which has now been posted back, along with the unsigned contract and their glowing letter of acceptance) - to wit:_ I also understand that you would be taking a risk by publishing anunknown author, but then, isn't that the risk every publishing house takes anyway? Nobody is famous from the first; every writer had to start somewhere, and I'm willing to bet that even the likes of Stephen King or Clive Barker or, hell, Charles Dickens, were not asked to pay to have their first works published!
_
Bottom line to me is that if there was no risk on any side everyone would get published and publishers would get paid because everything - everything - they published would do well. Of course the world isn't like that: publishers take a risk on new authors in the hope they will become the next King or Barker or Rowling or Martin, but authors should not have to PAY for the publishers to take that risk. Is it not something similar to starting a new job and your boss saying "Now I don't know if you'll be good at this, so for the first six months YOU'RE going to pay US!"????

As we say here in Ireland, Bollocks to that.


----------



## J.T. Chris (Nov 8, 2019)

There's a risk in publishing, but there is also a vetting process. They have professionals gauge the salability of unsolicited manuscripts before they commit to a contract. Vanity publishers do not vet because their business model is to make money off naive authors, not book sales.


----------



## JohnCalliganWrites (Nov 8, 2019)

Having done almost no research into the price of things, if I was gonna spend 2300 anyway, I'd blow 500-1000 on editing, another 1000 on Amazon ads, and the rest on original cover art. Then, I'd keep any money it made (or at least 70% of it) for myself.


----------



## luckyscars (Nov 9, 2019)

Trollheart said:


> I absolutely agree with Lucky, which was one of the lines I put into the letter (which has now been posted back, along with the unsigned contract and their glowing letter of acceptance) - to wit:_ I also understand that you would be taking a risk by publishing anunknown author, but then, isn't that the risk every publishing house takes anyway? Nobody is famous from the first; every writer had to start somewhere, and I'm willing to bet that even the likes of Stephen King or Clive Barker or, hell, Charles Dickens, were not asked to pay to have their first works published!
> _
> Bottom line to me is that if there was no risk on any side everyone would get published and publishers would get paid because everything - everything - they published would do well. Of course the world isn't like that: publishers take a risk on new authors in the hope they will become the next King or Barker or Rowling or Martin, but authors should not have to PAY for the publishers to take that risk. Is it not something similar to starting a new job and your boss saying "Now I don't know if you'll be good at this, so for the first six months YOU'RE going to pay US!"????
> 
> As we say here in Ireland, Bollocks to that.



Honestly, the letter was probably a waste of time. They don't care. It's not like they valued you, or any writer, in the first place. But if it made you feel better, I guess that's worth it!

I'm glad you've come down on the right side of this anyway. Plenty don't. Any predatory business practice is something I get very annoyed about.


----------



## Trollheart (Nov 13, 2019)

Update: rather surprisingly, I got an email from them today acknowledging receipt of my letter and expressing their regret that I "did not wish to publish with them". Odd that they responded, huh? Oh well.


----------



## Ralph Rotten (Nov 15, 2019)

Trollheart said:


> Update: rather surprisingly, I got an email from them today acknowledging receipt of my letter and expressing their regret that I "did not wish to publish with them". Odd that they responded, huh? Oh well.




They're just trying to keep up the appearance of being a legitimate publisher.


----------



## luckyscars (Nov 16, 2019)

Trollheart said:


> Update: rather surprisingly, I got an email from them today acknowledging receipt of my letter and expressing their regret that I "did not wish to publish with them". Odd that they responded, huh? Oh well.



Gaslighting. They want you to question your judgment.


----------

