# Is your writing dated?



## JustRob (Jun 5, 2016)

As an observer of the effects of time here it is fitting for me to post this thread.

Very recently my truly literally wise friend in the US wrote to me mourning the behaviour of undergraduates at Yale who, in their efforts to extend their egalitarian values to every aspect of their lives, have asked for many of the classical English writers, such as Chaucer, Shakespeare and Milton, to be removed from the compulsory literature course canon there because there are too many white male writers represented in it. To be honest this reminds me of a comedy sketch, by the two Ronnies I suspect, wherein the owner of a bookshop filed all his stock by size and colour of the cover regardless of the content. Those scholars could just as easily have complained about the predominance of small red books on the course for all it mattered. I have personally observed that a reader must go beyond what was asked of them by Coleridge, to suspend disbelief in the text, and also suspend belief in the existence of the writer. Literature stands or falls on its own merit, not the nature, character or reputation of the writer in my opinion, although marketing men may work hard to distort this. Anyway, this is merely the introduction to this subject.

My friend, a lecturer in English literature at a university himself, is fully aware that many modern students are incapable of reading older works with a view to the different times in which they were written or set. As an example he cited _The Scarlet Letter _by Nathaniel Hawthorne which, although written in 1850, is set in the puritan Boston of the 17th century. One of his female students just couldn't see anything in the story because it is centred on a woman who gave birth to a child out of wedlock and her reaction was "So what?" My Catholic friend was put out by her lax morality anyway but that apart he was disappointed that she couldn't relate to the setting of the story, instead assessing everything by her modern standards, if she had any. Time to cut to the chase then.

No matter how trendy we may consider ourselves our own writing is doomed to be dated. How much consideration do you give to this? At my advanced age I am well aware that many people will not understand many of the dated references within my own writing, but they are a bonus, not the meat of the story, so hopefully no real harm is done. Where it may matter I have been cautious. For example, my story is set in an office building known as HMS Frismersk as it is a Royal Navy asset. Normally the "S" stands for "ship", "submarine" or "shorestation" but HMS Frismersk is something else, therefore there is discussion within the story as to what the "S" may stand for. Of course the answer is ludicrous, but that's by the way. The important point is that I am careful never to reveal what the "HM" stands for. At present it stands for "Her Majesty's" but our present sovereign is now 90 and her heirs are male, so it may in a matter of years stand for "His Majesty's" instead. I could easily have let slip those potentially dated words but I didn't. I don't care to give any thought to the remote possibility of the United Kingdom becoming the United Republic in the future of course. So I am aware of the issue, but are you?

Much can change in a matter of a few years and many here don't expect their major works to be published any time soon, so how long are their shelf lives? Not so long ago I read an all action story with lots of guns and casualties. The writer obviously had deep knowledge of the tools of conflict and black operations and delighted in relating the details to the reader, even providing an appendix full of additional information that he couldn't fit into the story. That was no doubt impressive at the time that the story was published, but how long will it be before that technology is regarded as being as outdated as blunderbusses? Even if we are writing about fantasy or science fiction universes of our own making, how easy is it to slip into imbuing them with the characteristics of our own present day society? How easy is it to slip into using trendy present day phrases that will seem old hat within a year or two instead of sticking with well established words that can stand the test of time? 

That is the gist of the problem. Maybe we don't have to worry about future readers not appreciating our work in several centuries time as Chaucer, Milton and Shakespeare apparently do, but at least one hopes that our work can stay up to date long enough to get published despite our slow progress on it. So have you considered this aspect of writing and how do you approach it?


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## BobtailCon (Jun 5, 2016)

Gotta love the PC bullshit that's running rampant through Universities, eh?


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## midnightpoet (Jun 5, 2016)

My first two novels (yet unpublished) were set in Dallas, Texas late 1980's.  I gave up long ago trying to re-do them because of problems with dating.  My antagonist in my second novel, for example, was a "tunnel rat" in the Vietnam war.  If I re-did it today I'd have to think of a more recent war or leave the novels in the 1980's. I don't think an 80 year old serial killer would work, plus leaving it in the 1980's would make it too dated.  

A recent example is Michael Connolly's detective character Bosch updated for a recent TV series.   He was also a Vietnam veteran tunnel rat and they changed it to Afghanistan (they dug tunnels then too?). I also notice that many times Hollywood especially wants to infest their historical pieces with current politically correct values.

So yes, I've thought about it a lot.  Some things I did, like including real restaurants, was a bad idea - they open and close to often.  Using real places can be a problem also.  I knew Dallas too well, for example, and kept throwing in details that didn't advance the plot. I'm hoping inventing ones might help (unlike Hollywood, I'm trying to stay away from political correctness).  On my current WIP's I'm doing just that, inventing small towns.  The jury's still out on whether I'll publish a novel, I've had better luck with short stories and poetry - yet I keep trying.

Good luck with your writing,

Tony


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## bdcharles (Jun 5, 2016)

I like to think voice helps get around the problem, so you futureproof it by having unique characters.

Personally I swerve the issue by writing fantasy


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## Patrick (Jun 5, 2016)

_They_ should be kicked off the course for attempting to retard the progress of literature.

As for me, my work will be dated on its day of publication.


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## afk4life (Jun 5, 2016)

I don't know, there are some books that depressingly seem destined to always feel current, like _1984_ and _Animal Farm_... 

Some authors somehow avoid it at least well enough to be adapted into film/TV like John Lecarre, where just recently a TV series based on his work _The Night Manager_ came out, and _Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy_ which was an excellent film, and it sure didn't feel like a forty-year old story. They may have needed some adjusting but not a ton as I recall from reading the books a long time ago. Or the entire Bourne series. The trick there I think is to have the action enhanced by but not dependent on the era. The Bourne series was flexible enough they managed to get around the disappearance of the Soviet Union and not break anything in translating it to film. The reality is, the number of people who remember anything earlier than 1980 or even the 1990s, or what it was like to live then, is shrinking. So if your plot centers on something that was controversial at the time and isn't now, that could be dating yourself in a bad way. 

I think from your list -- Chaucer, Shakespeare, and Milton, only Shakespeare really makes sense to force students to know. Milton is about as fun to read as getting your teeth drilled with no anesthesia, and Chaucer, I barely remember why they made us memorize it (or even, in fact, what I memorized translates to, anymore). _The Scarlet Letter_ was not a book I think makes sense for students to force-read. I don't remember liking the book, even, and it didn't make sense to me at the time either (and that was a long time ago).  

As for Shakespeare, any teacher should introduce kids to it through any one of a lot of modern adaptations to film that will be much easier to relate to. Sure, get them curious to read the original if they want to, but instead of forcing them to read Romeo and Juliet show them the Baz Luhrmann film. Forcing them to read it is going to make them automatically dislike it. Introducing it to them through something relatable, they'll want to learn more. That's the big difference with Shakespeare and the rest -- his work has been adapted dozens of times, and lots of other films/stories have their plots almost directly pulled from Shakespeare (like _My Own Private Idaho_). His basic stories are pretty timeless.

There's just a been a lot of good work that is still relevant written in this century or at least the last half of the previous one.


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## Sam (Jun 5, 2016)

I pay no attention to PC nonsense. 

I read what I want, write what I want, and say what I want. If it offends anyone, they have the right to be offended -- and I have the right to tell them that I couldn't give a rat's ass whether or not they're offended. 

As for it being dated: by the time my work becomes so dated that references are lost on people, I'll be dead, so that's about as much thought as I've given it.


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## midnightpoet (Jun 5, 2016)

Sam said:


> I pay no attention to PC nonsense.
> 
> I read what I want, write what I want, and say what I want. If it offends anyone, they have the right to be offended -- and I have the right to tell them that I couldn't give a rat's ass whether or not they're offended.
> 
> As for it being dated: by the time my work becomes so dated that references are lost on people, I'll be dead, so that's about as much thought as I've given it.



And actually, I agree with the above - but it's still an interesting discussion.  Basically, write the darn thing, if an agent/publisher tells you he'd go for it if it was updated, then great.  It's good to have a choice.


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## Plasticweld (Jun 5, 2016)

The real drama that goes on in life is timeless.  

Each of us have to experience all good and bad stuff for the first time no matter the date in history.  To fall in love, to lose a loved one, to fail or to succeed has not been limited by the calendar or the language of the time.


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## voltigeur (Jun 5, 2016)

Since I write Historical Fiction it's kinda what I'm going for. :topsy_turvy::tongue2:


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## DruidPeter (Jun 5, 2016)

I'd be lying if I said that I had reach much of any of those works, JustRob. Out of all of them, I don't believe I hold much love for the original source material, and even the classics like Romeo and Juliet have garnished something of a bitter taste in my mouth... 

Having said that, I would like to respond to your friend's comment about *The Scarlet Letter*. I believe that, at the time, much of the intent Nathaniel Hawthorne had in writing that book was to show the injustice done to Hester Prynne, and the ultimate hypocrisy of Nathaniel's Puritan ancestors, on whose behalf he himself felt much guilt. I suppose that in that sense, there might not actually *be* much meaning in reading a book like that these days, since people have pretty much taken that lesson to heart.

I mean, why continue to make our students learn that impregnation out of wedlock isn't such a horrible crime if most already know and believe this in the first place?

As for my own work... well, my book is "_technically_" fantasy/sci-fi, but I'm hoping that, written well enough, it can come to be recognized as something special in it's own right. In that sense, I suppose I kind of *do* want the work to be dated, or at least have a sense of date, in the sense of being representative of it's own time. Not sure if that makes sense....

The story takes place in a system of Aristocratic Fascism, as well... so I'm sure the PC Police won't be far behind, lol.


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## BobtailCon (Jun 5, 2016)

DruidPeter said:


> I mean, why continue to make our students learn that impregnation out of wedlock isn't such a horrible crime if most already know and believe this in the first place?



Because it teaches the students about the thoughts, feelings and troubles people had in that era. It also shows students who the real progressives of their times were.


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## SilverMoon (Jun 5, 2016)

JustRob, a great thread, here. There's much to cull from the classics to enrich our writing - Yes, a bonus. And I've never been one for the trendy. Besides, I'd not have the time to catch up...



> Originally Posted by *JustRob *
> 
> he cited _The Scarlet Letter _by Nathaniel Hawthorne which, although written in 1850, is set in the puritan Boston of the 17th century. One of his female students just couldn't see anything in the story because it is centred on a woman who gave birth to a child out of wedlock and her reaction was "So what?" My Catholic friend was put out by her lax morality anyway but that apart he was disappointed that she couldn't relate to the setting of the story, instead assessing everything by her modern standards, if she had any.



Pertaining to...I was introduced to my first classic when I was ten directly after getting my first phone call from a boy. And of course this book would be "The Scarlet Letter". My staunch Catholic step-mother waved "The Bible for Young Girls" in my face telling me to report to her after I finished reading. Too young to understand I was a "metaphorical" thinker, I was riveted by the read and amused by her attempt to scare the living day lights out of me. When I finished, I reported to her. "So, do you understand how mingling with boys will come to no good?" I had a way with words..."It had nothing to do with boys but with hypocrisy. I see it at_ (parochial) _ school all the time."  Hence, I was sent to my room as a form of penance....

So given this, it is beyond my comprehension as to why this female student couldn't grasp the underneath of it all. As to your Catholic friend who focused on lack of morality? I guess there are step-mothers abounding.


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## oenanthe (Jun 6, 2016)

oh. I thought the OP was satire. heh. heh heh. 

Never Mind. I'll just go over there.


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## Phil Istine (Jun 6, 2016)

Surely part of the charm is about being outdated as it's a window into the past.  Try reading Dickens with modern day values.  The social services would be having all manner of people locked up for child abuse.

I can't recall what it was now but I saw a film a while ago where a couple of the (very wealthy) actors had what I thought were cordless phones due to their size.  It turned out that they were mobile (cell) phones.


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## JustRob (Jun 6, 2016)

oenanthe said:


> oh. I thought the OP was satire. heh. heh heh.
> 
> Never Mind. I'll just go over there.



It's probably down to my style of writing. I persistently write with a forked tongue and crossed nib, so to speak.



afk4life said:


> I don't know, there are some books that depressingly seem destined to always feel current, like _1984_ and _Animal Farm_...



Well if a story was ever literally "dated" it must have been _1984,_ but I understand that Orwell was referring to what could have happened in 1948 had things turned out differently and simply reversed two digits of the year.



afk4life said:


> That's the big difference with Shakespeare and the rest -- his work has been adapted dozens of times, and lots of other films/stories have their plots almost directly pulled from Shakespeare (like _My Own Private Idaho_). His basic stories are pretty timeless.





DruidPeter said:


> As for my own work... well, my book is "_technically_" fantasy/sci-fi, but I'm hoping that, written well enough, it can come to be recognized as something special in it's own right. In that sense, I suppose I kind of *do* want the work to be dated, or at least have a sense of date, in the sense of being representative of it's own time. Not sure if that makes sense....
> 
> The story takes place in a system of Aristocratic Fascism, as well... so I'm sure the PC Police won't be far behind, lol.



By coincidence there was a production of _A Midsummer Night's Dream _on BBC TV just a few nights ago in which ancient Athens was depicted as an aristocratic fascist state with Theseus behaving like Big Brother. It was pretty time-warped as well with people in it using tablet computers, but then it was created by Russell T Davies, who was responsible for much of _Doctor Who_. The script and most of the story line was Shakespeare's though. It was the first time that my angel had seen the play and I don't think it did any injustice to Will's original although the unique ending was considered controversial. My academic friend in the US happens to be an expert on the bard's work, devoting much of his time to showing his students the inner workings of it, so one can understand his attitude to those young people at Yale who are effectively being, well, _prejudiced _in their efforts to be egalitarian ironically.

For my own part, having entitled my novel _Never Upon A Time _I was obliged to live up to that theme. One device that I use is to include references to real places that have since vanished and ensure that this is implied in the text. For example, someone in the story has a bottle of exceptional single malt whiskey that he bought a while ago in a specialist shop in Tunbridge Wells. There really was such a shop once but the real business is now mail order only. I had fun in one chapter for a future novel in the same series where a girl reminisces about a pub in the centre of Tunbridge Wells where her father used to play darts. The pub was called _The Times _but the times have changed and it isn't there any more. Anyone who knew the town back in the day would remember the real timbered building of that name that once stood there and it was worth including just for that play on words.


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## Bishop (Jun 6, 2016)

Science fiction becomes most dated when its scientific concepts are proven right or wrong. Personally, in terms of the aforementioned "PC" angle of the initial post, I try to be as inclusive as I can in my writing... not because of some politically correct agenda, but because I like exploring a myriad of character races and genders. I find it helps me as a writer to diversify my characters. I care not for the social issues one way or the next. Selfish? Probably, but I don't let myself worry about it. I'm not writing for publication anyway, so I could really care less.


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## Terry D (Jun 6, 2016)

Most of my fiction is set in the here-and-now, so I use contemporary references which can tend to date my work. Music, automobiles, popular culture, all get mentions. I don't worry about it. If I get lucky enough to write something timeless, it will be because of the story, not some vague temporal setting.


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## JustRob (Jun 6, 2016)

Terry D said:


> Most of my fiction is set in the here-and-now, so I use contemporary references which can tend to date my work. Music, automobiles, popular culture, all get mentions. I don't worry about it. If I get lucky enough to write something timeless, it will be because of the story, not some vague temporal setting.



I thought I was safe by referring mostly to things already past, but I seem to have come a cropper with my mention of classic cars. One chapter of my novel mentions a Honda NSX as being an aging supercar, but after many years since it was originally produced Honda are now planning to market a new model of the NSX. Apparently you can't win either way.

At least I never mentioned platform shoes as they seem to be back in fashion as well, but lord knows why.

I make it a point never to mention specific years in my writing but there could be obscure clues to the possible settings for the story. My main character was born on United Nations Day (24th October) but within the story he also mentions that he was born "on the cusp", i.e. at the changeover point between one sign of the zodiac and another. As the period for the Scorpio sign is usually considered to start on the 23rd October this would appear to be an inconsistency, but according to something that I read on the subject the precise astrological cusps between signs move about and within any century there can be years when the cusp between Libra and Scorpio does fall on the 24th. Only a pedant like myself would even think about this though, I suspect. That's part of the fun in writing though, making the hypercritical reader work hard for their gratification while more reasonable readers just enjoy the story.


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## DruidPeter (Jun 6, 2016)

BobtailCon said:


> Because it teaches the students about the  thoughts, feelings and troubles people had in that era. It also shows  students who the real progressives of their times were.



That does make sense, actually. As far as education goes, learning is far more than just gaining the skills necessary to get a job, something that often seems overlooked these days. I wonder, though, how you would rank something like this in terms of the necessary importance in teaching it to children. Given a limited amount of curriculum time, and an ever increasing proliferation of subjects and sentiments to be taught, how high up would you prioritize the teaching of students something like "*The Scarlet Letter*"? Is there some other book you might prefer in it's place, perhaps?

I guess, personally, I've never felt a great deal of love for the works of Nathaniel Hawthorne, outside of *Young Goodman Brown*. Others are likely to have far different opinions, though. It's difficult to say. xD


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## Bard_Daniel (Jun 6, 2016)

I'm a huge fan of Shakespeare and Milton's Paradise Lost and Paradise Regained are some of my favorite works of poetry. I didn't mind The Scarlet Letter either. I believe there is definite value to studying and reading these works, whether you are in university or not.

That's a little much that it's being removed because it's not deemed "friendly/accessible/PC" to undergrads. Wouldn't you want to learn from some of the greats rather than what is "socially acceptable?"

What a load of !@#$. Excuse my French but it seems ridiculous to me.


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## midnightpoet (Jun 6, 2016)

As far as undergrads and pc crap, I wonder at times if they aren't doing it for the hell of
it, just to get a rise out of the college dean all the while laughing at the mess they caused.  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but it does make me wonder.:???:


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## BobtailCon (Jun 7, 2016)

midnightpoet said:


> As far as undergrads and pc crap, I wonder at times if they aren't doing it for the hell of
> it, just to get a rise out of the college dean all the while laughing at the mess they caused.  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but it does make me wonder.:???:



I wish.

Nope, these people really believe in some insane bullshit. 

Want a taste of it? Scroll through here.


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## JustRob (Jun 7, 2016)

midnightpoet said:


> As far as undergrads and pc crap, I wonder at times if they aren't doing it for the hell of
> it, just to get a rise out of the college dean all the while laughing at the mess they caused.  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but it does make me wonder.:???:



Yes, my friend does occasionally look at RateMyProfessors.com to see what's being said about him, but doesn't take it too seriously. He teaches at UMUC, which I assume has a points system for acquiring degrees and his courses score a lot of points, so students take them expecting an easy time, not realising how intensive they are. Truly comprehending English literature isn't a walk in the park. Most of what he writes to me I find pretty incomprehensible. That's a bit embarrassing given that I'm actually English and my old school was already around before Shakespeare was born.

I never encountered _The Scarlet Letter _in my school days of course. I suppose our equivalent for study was _The Devil's Disciple _by George Bernard Shaw. It sounds like we got the better plot there as at least it has a distinct twist to it.


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## escorial (Jun 7, 2016)

writing for me is like any other art form..painting,music..it just evolves and while trends will come and go the great work defined by the masses will just always remain as a work that stood the test of time and inspired...


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## escorial (Jun 7, 2016)

danielstj said:


> I'm a huge fan of Shakespeare and Milton's Paradise Lost and Paradise Regained are some of my favorite works of poetry. I didn't mind The Scarlet Letter either. I believe there is definite value to studying and reading these works, whether you are in university or not.
> 
> That's a little much that it's being removed because it's not deemed "friendly/accessible/PC" to undergrads. Wouldn't you want to learn from some of the greats rather than what is "socially acceptable?"
> 
> What a load of !@#$. Excuse my French but it seems ridiculous to me.



when you read Shaky do you read it effortlessly and move from page to page with ease..i find when I've tried to read his stuff I'm just lost so early on I lose interest...?


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## JustRob (Jun 7, 2016)

danielstj said:


> That's a little much that it's being removed because it's not deemed "friendly/accessible/PC" to undergrads. Wouldn't you want to learn from some of the greats rather than what is "socially acceptable?"



What I found worrying was that it wasn't about whether the contents of the works themselves were socially acceptable apparently but just whether the authors were. Thinking about George Eliot, it would be truly ironic if William Shakespeare was the pen-name of a female writer who lived in a lesbian relationship with her "wife". I mean, all that stuff about Anne being pregnant before the marriage and the business with her father's shepherd. Well, it makes one think, doesn't it? That would put a new twist on _Shakespeare in Love_ methinks and maybe explain the sonnets, apart from putting him/her back in favour at Yale. Wicked thought.


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## Patrick (Jun 7, 2016)

escorial said:


> when you read Shaky do you read it effortlessly and move from page to page with ease..i find when I've tried to read his stuff I'm just lost so early on I lose interest...?



I don't think the modern reader can read Shakespeare effortlessly because the language is so different.


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## JustRob (Jun 7, 2016)

Patrick said:


> I don't think the modern reader can read Shakespeare effortlessly because the language is so different.



I can't understand, let alone appreciate, half the stuff that people write here because language has changed so much just over my lifetime. Extrapolating on that I assume that their writing may well become regarded as quaint but old-fashioned or even offensive sooner than they may think. Presumably Will was pretty trendy in his day, using all the "in" phrases that hardly anyone comprehends now. Evolution of our language has probably speeded up since, so the impact of this nowadays may well become evident sooner. That's why I mentioned looking both backwards and forwards in the OP. 

As to the future of PC terminology, I don't even want to go there. Thank heavens I'm old. When my angel and I discussed the subject at home recently we should probably have swept for bugs first, given the pre-PC era language that we were using. Changing the language doesn't actually change attitudes and our colloquial language only implies attitudes to those used to applying weird modern PC criteria. Hence we only use it with people who comprehend its intended significance within the context of "our time". Therefore when I write I try to make my words timeless.


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## LeeC (Jun 7, 2016)

JustRob said:


> I can't understand, let alone appreciate, half the stuff that people write here because language has changed so much just over my lifetime. Extrapolating on that I assume that their writing may well become regarded as quaint but old-fashioned or even offensive sooner than they may think. Presumably Will was pretty trendy in his day, using all the "in" phrases that hardly anyone comprehends now. Evolution of our language has probably speeded up since, so the impact of this nowadays may well become evident sooner. That's why I mentioned looking both backwards and forwards in the OP.


There's another way of looking at such. Each succeeding generation is subjectively inwardly focused in our human bubbles and tries to distinguish themselves by being different. Nothing is all bad though, as some eventually come around to the idea that their life can have meaning without the big ME out front. To many though, the idea is contradictory. 

Live as if your Life had consequences far beyond your understanding. It does.



JustRob said:


> As to the future of PC terminology, I don't even want to go there. Thank heavens I'm old. When my angel and I discussed the subject at home recently we should probably have swept for bugs first, given the pre-PC era language that we were using. Changing the language doesn't actually change attitudes and our colloquial language only implies attitudes to those used to applying weird modern PC criteria. Hence we only use it with people who comprehend its intended significance within the context of "our time". Therefore when I write I try to make my words timeless.


To me, this whole PC thing is small minds confusing respectful interactions with pseudo respect.


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## Bard_Daniel (Jun 7, 2016)

escorial said:


> when you read Shaky do you read it effortlessly and move from page to page with ease..i find when I've tried to read his stuff I'm just lost so early on I lose interest...?



Shakespeare isn't that hard to understand. If you have a little guide that you use to clear up some of the antiquated language and terms it actually becomes quite palatable-- or at least I think so.



JustRob said:


> What I found worrying was that it wasn't about  whether the contents of the works themselves were socially acceptable  apparently but just whether the authors were.



That's even worse. Dictating curriculum writers by lifestyle choices? Wow.



JustRob said:


> Thinking about George  Eliot, it would be truly ironic if William Shakespeare was the pen-name  of a female writer who lived in a lesbian relationship with her "wife". I  mean, all that stuff about Anne being pregnant before the marriage and  the business with her father's shepherd. Well, it makes one think,  doesn't it? That would put a new twist on _Shakespeare in Love_ methinks and maybe explain the sonnets, apart from putting him/her back in favour at Yale. Wicked thought.



That IS a wicked thought!


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## EmmaSohan (Jun 7, 2016)

To me, _The Scarlet Letter_ is very difficult to read because of its grammar. We've learned to do much better. The characters are flat and Hawthorne doesn't tell scenes well. There are amazing things in that story, but if we require students to read it, I hope our goal isn't for them to enjoy reading or learn how to write well.

Yeah, dating is a problem. They ask my MC her favorite singers and she mentions one in the top #10 and one indie. Um, but that was last year. The "obscure indie" (Lapsley) put out a CD this year that made it to #32 in the UK.


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## JustRob (Jun 25, 2016)

My novel makes references to the relationship between the UK and USA. In fact that is an integral element of it. However, it makes no mention whatsoever of any relationship between the UK and Europe. Phew, my uncanny sixth sense must have been working well there. Brexit? EU? No problems here. My writing is timeless still.


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## afk4life (Jun 25, 2016)

At this point _Planet of the Apes_ is starting to feel like nonfiction...


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## Carly Berg (Jun 25, 2016)

The dated writing I've noticed a lot lately is from beta reading and reviewing self-published YA stories and novels, where the author is middle-aged and writing from their own experiences. I enjoy them but I guess they're not big sellers. 

That's different from them becoming dated _after_ they're written, of course. But it's what's on my mind since I'm re-writing an old trunked YA novel with that same issue and wondering if I should try to update it or just leave it. Ah, I'll probably just tell the story I want to tell and accept that it agents probably won't be beating down my door over it. I didn't notice it being a problem until I read it from other writers and thought they just seemed kind of irrelevant or something...


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## eefraoula (Jun 25, 2016)

The story I've been mulling over in my mind is a sci-fi/fantasy that would be set during a future time on Earth, but far enough into the future that I feel I am free to invent whatever political factions or socio-cultural trends I please. However, I still care about doing my research and working within the framework of what current scientists predict or speculate about the future, specifically in terms of the environmental/ecological changes to come. For me, it will be a great mental exercise and also a fun activity to try and work these theories into a story and to picture the world to come, even if today's scientists and myself end up being way off base. It's an exercise in imagination, and if future readers find what I write and choose to disregard it for being 'dated' - then that is their decision, yet to be made, and it can't really hold any sway on how/what I choose to write at the present.

I honestly think the whole idea of writing being "dated" depends more on the reader than the writer - if your reader is focusing on the superficial details (like car models or specific locales that date the piece) or if they are too hung up on the political/cultural trends in the story seeming too old-fashioned, then they are probably missing the big picture! If your reader isn't able to take themself out of the present society and separate their beliefs (religious, political, cultural) from that of the characters they are reading about, then why are they even bothering to read something fiction or something that might possibly contain 'dated' details or 'oldschool' ideas? The experience of reading should be an exercise in empathy, mentally taking someone out of his or herself so that they can imagine a different perspective - that may include imagining a world where the majority of people believe pregnancy out of wedlock is a sin even if the reader is living presently in a world that tends to disagree. I didn't particularly enjoy The Scarlet Letter, but the part I did enjoy was the mental exercise of putting my mind in another time, working my brain into understanding something I couldn't truly experience firsthand.

As for the banning of certain authors due to their race/gender, I think what the students of Yale are doing is an example of the sort of actions today's trendy (that's not to say unimportant) belief systems of inspire in this younger generation. Personally (and don't anyone box me into some category based on this), I am 24, I consider myself pretty free-thinking and wholly open to hearing the ideas of those voices who have been predominantly silenced throughout history - you could even say I agree with a solid amount of PC bullshit. But, I also believe that we can't possibly hear everyone's voice, and we especially can't hear them all in the classroom! Like I said, The Scarlet Letter didn't do all that much for me - so maybe my time would have been better spent reading someone else's story - that has less to do with Nathaniel Hawthorne as a person and more to do with him as a writer and his ideas as they related those around him.

We all clearly have our own subjective preferences, we may even consider some stories as universally necessary for a solid education - but there is no right and wrong in the end. I think the Yale students' push for more diverse authors says a lot about these students, it is more of a statement about what many people believe today. It says a lot about the students of today and possibly the way of the future, and also should serve as a reminder that there will always be students somewhere wishing they could study something else instead. Well, my advice would be to pick up the books of women and non-white authors whether you're required to or not - if you really want to read different authors, then do it. If you really don't want to read Shakespear, Chaucer, or Milton - then don't (unless you're being graded on it, that's your call! GPA vs. moral agenda?). Whether someone thinks these sorts of movements are part of a bullshit PC agenda doesn't really matter to me. It's my opinion that the progressives of any age are not always popular, not always heard/seen, and not always right! But they still have something to say. I think it's imporant that people today are asking to hear new/different ideas - but like I said, they're never gonna hear everyone's ideas. They might even study Shakespeare in college just to forget it a couple years later. Some classics just don't click with people.


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## Darkkin (Jun 25, 2016)

My style flies full bore into the face of modern poetry standards.  I may not do iambic pentameter, but I follow in the footsteps of the classic poets.  Story for the sake of story, true rhyme, and solid form.  Utilization of elements, like alliteration, assonance, internal rhyme.  All highly stylized, one poem, building into the next.  In essence, epic poetry.  If that isn't dated, I don't know what it.

Linguistic patterns are derived not only from what we hear, but from what we read.  Styles we enjoy, become the styles we tend to mimic because that patterns resonate with us, for whatever the reason.  Be it the verbiage, the cadence, voice, or style.  I have always had a fondness for older texts, the writing, while leaning toward purple, is much more tangible and delineated.  The writer's voice clear, colloquialisms and all.  Lucy Maud Montgomery, Jane Austen, and Georgette Heyer among their number.  The writing isn't shallow, it breathes...Showing, not telling.

And with the advent of the modern age, I think that is something that is becoming more pronounced.  Fewer people know how to show, to illustrate instead of making a bald statement.  Showing takes a little more time, more active engagement on the part of the writer, but it is a clearer voice.  The world has become inundated with skimmers, wanting instant gratification and understanding.  Why read a book, when you can just look it up on wikipedia?

I write with classic forms, not only because I can, but because they offer a level of depth and versatility that thing like free verse and prose poetry could never hope to offer.  Geometric patterns that can be extrapolated in an infinite number of ways.  Mine are realms of rhyme and nonsense, but consider children's literature.  What stories have survived?  The Brothers Grimm, Mother Goose, Dr. Seuss...Shel Silverstein.  All tales rooted in rhyme and nonsense.  Yes, I am dated, but my roots go deep.

Dated or not, it helps to have a distinctive style.  It proved to be a saving grace for my 'Ways this past winter when I had to prove a case of plagiarism.  The challenger's samples had less than a 2% linguistic congruency to the disputed works.  Mine were a perfect match.  I won the case and the accreditation because of my obscure linguistic patterns.

- D. the T.


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## J Anfinson (Jun 25, 2016)

Is my writing dated? Only when I want it to be. If I want to transport you to 1968 Viet Nam like I'm attempting in parts of my novel, you'll notice a lot of dated references. Those are there (hopefully) to set the scene and add realism. Otherwise I just tell the story.


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## JustRob (Sep 7, 2016)

In my novel at one point I describe the real scenery on an island, which includes a massive power station, a series of enormous concrete blockhouses filling the skyline. You feel pretty safe with something like that compared to a more ephemeral place like a restaurant. However, on TV I've just watched a news clip of the power station being blown up by a demolition team. Aw, shucks! 

In my novel I suggested it as the potential target for a terrorist bomb and now it really has been blown up. Have I ever mentioned my apparent psychic powers when writing? Oh, I probably have ... just occasionally.


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## Sack-a-doo (Sep 7, 2016)

JustRob said:


> So have you considered this aspect of writing and how do you approach it?


I've actually gone the other way... sort of.

My WIP is set in small-town 1967 Nova Scotia and I've tried to recapture not just the figures of speech and word usage of the _time_, but also the regionalism. One of my beta readers is in her twenties and I've had to rewrite for clarity because she didn't know what I was talking about. It was only a word here and there, so it's no big deal, but it's been a challenge to hang onto that 1967 Nova Scotia flavour while making it accessible to someone far too young to remember.



BobtailCon said:


> Gotta love the PC bullshit that's running rampant through Universities, eh?



A woman I knew in Vancouver during the 1990s was a tenured professor at UBC around the time this whole PC thing gained major momentum. She stood up for some guy who'd made non-PC remarks because she believed that, right or wrong, universities should be maintained as bastions of free speech, even by those with their heads up their butts (and this particular guy really did and she never shied away from that fact).

I guess she lost her battle.



DruidPeter said:


> The story takes place in a system of Aristocratic Fascism, as well... so I'm sure the PC Police won't be far behind, lol.



I suspect you're right since we're headed into a brand new era of aristocratic fascism, but with trillionaire banking families and multi-national corporations filling in as the elite. If we common people were to realize the similarities to past oppressive regimes and cry foul, our new masters will be very put out. 



EmmaSohan said:


> Yeah, dating is a problem. They ask my MC her favorite singers and she mentions one in the top #10 and one indie. Um, but that was last year. The "obscure indie" (Lapsley) put out a CD this year that made it to #32 in the UK.



I suppose that could work in your favour, though. Twenty or thirty years from now, readers may not need a footnote because Lapsley could be as well known then as Springsteen is now. And Springsteen, too, was an obscure indie at one time. When I bought _Born to Run _round about 1977—recommended by a friend—it took forever to find it in a store.



afk4life said:


> At this point _Planet of the Apes_ is starting to feel like nonfiction...



Yes, although Koko and her kitten may not be the best leaders for _that_ movement.eaceful:



Carly Berg said:


> I didn't notice it being a problem until I read it from other writers  and thought they just seemed kind of irrelevant or something...



I don't know for sure if it's because of the genre I've chosen (humorous science fiction) or something else, but I think I've found a way around this. Two of my beta readers are women in their mid-20s, both authors in their own rights, and even though they've made comments about some word choices, both seem to be having fun reading my WIP. And the comments aren't about dated words or themes or modes of expression (all of which are in there) but simply that some words are just not familiar.



eefraoula said:


> I honestly think the whole idea of writing being "dated" depends more on the reader than the writer - if your reader is focusing on the superficial details (like car models or specific locales that date the piece) or if they are too hung up on the political/cultural trends in the story seeming too old-fashioned, then they are probably missing the big picture!



I've always thought the opposite, that stories are dated because of the big-picture ideas presented rather than the details. I could be wrong, but that's what I think.

Take _1984_ (since it's already been discussed as an example in this thread)... Orwell's vision of a totalitarian state is what most people remember from the book, not the details of architecture, vehicular traffic, etc. Even if the novel had been about adjusting to post-war living and coping with the gathering storm that became the Cold War, most modern readers could still relate since we live in a time when post-war/gathering-war has become a permanent part of life. Perhaps if he'd written about the sweetness and light he'd managed to find in an obscure corner of the world, we'd think of him as dated... but because most of us experienced such a state at some point in childhood, I suspect his stories would still raise moans of nostalgia.


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## JustRob (Sep 7, 2016)

Sack-a-doo said:


> My WIP is set in small-town 1967 Nova Scotia and I've tried to recapture not just the figures of speech and word usage of the _time_, but also the regionalism.





Sack-a-doo said:


> I suspect you're right since we're headed into a brand new era of aristocratic fascism, but with trillionaire banking families and multi-national corporations filling in as the elite.



Oddly I've justed posted a funny item in another thread - here - which involves both aristocratic fascism of a sort in a film and a problem with using a dated local figure of speech. As a result I felt it wise to add a note for those who didn't understand it. Those who do know the dialect laughed anyway.


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## Patrick (Sep 7, 2016)

You must use an appropriate voice for the time period your novel is set in. When I write the dialogue for my novel (though set out of time and space it draws heavily on the late middle ages) I don't feel inclined to write _totes amazeballs_. And the language you use also depends on the sophistication of your characters and just how complex you want your novel to be. Again, what's appropriate? I understand there's enough dumbing down in popular literature to leave people dissatisfied enough to pick up a book that doesn't treat its readers as those too slow to catch on.

I strive for the richest experience I can give a reader when I sit down to write, and that by definition requires some difficulty, for me and the reader.


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## jenthepen (Sep 7, 2016)

Just a quick tip about answering posts, Sack-a-doo. If you want to answer more than one post, simply click on the little + symbol at the bottom righthand corner of each post you want to reply to and then click 'reply with quote' for the last one. All the posts you want to address will come up in the reply box and you can insert your answers for each one.

This will save you time and keep the thread tidy. Hope this helps.


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## Sam (Sep 7, 2016)

Patrick said:


> You must use an appropriate voice for the time period your novel is set in. When I write the dialogue for my novel (though set out of time and space it draws heavily on the late middle ages) I don't feel inclined to write _totes amazeballs_.



No one should feel inclined to write those words. 

Ever.


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## Annoying kid (Sep 7, 2016)

Yeah my writing's dated. The chicks in my story are actually hot and not morbidly obese "real women"feminists with problem glasses and pie faces. Making my story "sexist" and "objectifying" in todays culture.


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## LeeC (Sep 7, 2016)

Sam said:


> Patrick said:
> 
> 
> > . . . I don't feel inclined to write _totes amazeballs_. . . .
> ...


Had to look that term up which shows how dated I am. Like in Back to the Future, soon all these bright people will be wearing their pants inside out.


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## Sack-a-doo (Sep 8, 2016)

Patrick said:


> I understand there's enough dumbing down in popular literature to leave people dissatisfied enough to pick up a book that doesn't treat its readers as those too slow to catch on.



And sometimes it can be a narrow path to walk.



jenthepen said:


> If you want to answer more than one post, simply click on the little + symbol at the bottom righthand corner of each post you want to reply to and then click 'reply with quote' for the last one.


Thank you for pointing this out.

However, this would assume I read through the entire thread before replying, which I don't. I reply to one post, then move on to read (and decide whether or not I'll reply to) the next. I like to keep things spontaneous, you know?

But if I'm messing up the system everyone's got going on here, I apologize. And if it becomes a problem, I can probably control myself and simply not post... but where's the fun in that?


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## Patrick (Sep 8, 2016)

Sam said:


> No one should feel inclined to write those words.
> 
> Ever.



Strangely, now I do...


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## LeeC (Sep 8, 2016)

Sack-a-doo said:


> Thank you for pointing this out.
> 
> However, this would assume I read through the entire thread before replying, which I don't. I reply to one post, then move on to read (and decide whether or not I'll reply to) the next. I like to keep things spontaneous, you know?
> 
> But if I'm messing up the system everyone's got going on here, I apologize. And if it becomes a problem, I can probably control myself and simply not post... but where's the fun in that?



As I see it Jen was being very nice in trying to save you some aggravation, a word to the wise as it were. If a moderator has to go to the extra effort of combining your multiple responses the tone might be a bit different ;-)


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## JustRob (Sep 9, 2016)

Sack-a-doo said:


> And sometimes it can be a narrow path to walk.
> 
> 
> Thank you for pointing this out.
> ...



The solution is simply to use the Edit button to add more text to your existing post. Sometimes I've done that several days later. The only problem with doing that is that the "What's New" thread doesn't recognise it as a new post, so doesn't list it and people may miss the fact that you posted new comments. I agree that it is a nuisance, but as consecutive posts apparently upset the efficiency of the website we ought to make the effort (especially on a thread that I started). 

If you comment on a post without reading ahead then you may simply be reiterating something that somebody else has already mentioned. I tend to read a thread right through to see where the conversation is heading before posting, unless there is a post which has been passed over by the general trend and I feel the need to refer back to it. 

Think of it this way. Each thread is a piece of living literature. Shouldn't one read it right through before writing a critique? Often enough it is mentioned in these forums that to become a good writer one must also be a good reader.

Yes, it's a pain, but please make the effort -- and keep those comments coming.

EDIT ---- P.S.
Of course, if you want to edit an existing post and add a quote of another one it gets tricky, but is possible, as I now find myself having to do.



Annoying kid said:


> Yeah my writing's dated. The chicks in my story are actually hot and not morbidly obese "real women"feminists with problem glasses and pie faces. Making my story "sexist" and "objectifying" in todays culture.



My angel and I were in the supermarket the other day and most of the shoppers had really given no thought to their appearance. No doubt they didn't see the point just to shop and we aren't supposed to be critical nowadays, so what does it matter? Perhaps they considered themselves to be "real people" in modern terms. That was all blown apart though when we both noticed a genuine real woman, classily dressed up to the nines without a hair out of place. She deserved a round of applause for saving real femininity from total extinction. There was nothing sexist or objectified about her. She was just superior, not necessarily through class but simply through making the effort to raise the standards. 

I think there may be a difference between writing being dated through evolution and through social deterioration. In the latter case perhaps it is the responsibility of our literature to restore the balance and remind society of what it is losing. It isn't just about the women either. There's still room in literature for both James Bond in an immaculate DJ and John McClane in a dirty vest.


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