# How mean are you?



## spider8 (Mar 26, 2011)

I'm extremely irritated at a mean friend. He went on a water metre. He saves his bath water to fill up his toilet cistern. He'll go to his workplace to use the toilet and shower. When he _does_ pee at home, after flushing he'll wipe the rim and leave the toilet paper under the seat rather than drop it in the pan and flush it again.
When I fill up the kettle for a cuppa he makes sure I don't overfill more than required (excess electricity too).
He's the last person to buy a round in the pub. He's got thousands in the bank (not because of parsimony - I'm just explaining his lack of logic).

I have people at work sitting next to me to read my paper while I read it. They pass newsagents and could buy a paper. They can afford it.

I recently made carrot and orange soup for someone. They then did it themselves with economy carrots instead of proper carrots and were disappointed at the result.

I'm fed up with all you mean people. But out of interest, what are _your_ mean habits?


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## The Backward OX (Mar 27, 2011)

Two of my perennial favourites are both long-distance and local phone calls.

I can phone the thyroid clinic, which is run by our state’s largest public hospital, down the big smoke, and pay 25c/minute + connection fee, if I dial direct. Or I can phone the government switchboard as a free call and be transferred. I do this with all government-related calls.

I have a free phone link to the local motoring organisation. I discovered that the other, state-based, motoring organisations around the country have phone links between each other. So if for example I want travel information about Tasmania, over a thousand miles away, I phone my local office and have them switch me through.

Every once in a while my bank will advertise a promotion and provide a free number to call, as a way to get the suckers in. Once the promo is over, the number is simply taken up by their system as a number to call for pretty well anything, only they don’t publicise this fact. But I’ve kept a record of it, haven’t I? And when I want phone banking or whatever, instead of paying for the call like the mugs do, I just call that number and follow the prompts to get to where I want to go.

When a chargeable business phone call is inevitable, I search that business’s web-site for an email address and email my query instead.

More: 

I’ve adopted the British habit of bathing once per week (whether I need it or not) to save on hot water. Same with shaving. Once every five or six days. Oh, and I use the juice of aloe vera from the garden instead of shaving cream.

Back in the days when I drove a manual transmission I would always use angel gear* on long downhill runs to save fuel. During highway driving, I’d slipstream behind large trucks for the same reason**. Today I drive slowly to avoid wearing out my brakes with unnecessary braking.

*look it up.

** DO NOT TRY THIS IN YOUR OWN CAR. IT IS DANGEROUS.

Back in my single days I learnt there are literally thousands of unattached females with only one thing on their minds. The ladies in question hail from the ranks of the quite recently separated. Armed with this knowledge, it was a relatively simple matter to get down to the nitty-gritty and avoid wasting money on wining and dining them. 



I’ll prolly think of more later.


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## The Backward OX (Mar 27, 2011)

Free Food

All processed-food companies provide a freecall number for feedback about their product. All you need do is call and tell them, for example, that their vanilla ice cream is suggestive of dead squirrel, and the ice cream truck will be backing up your driveway next day with a load consisting of every ice cream flavour they make, just for you, to shut you up. Just remember to quote a different phone number for yourself each time you call the same company; they use that in their database in a futile attempt at preventing conning by unscrupulous consumers.:shock:


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 27, 2011)

I go round skips and collect those big plastic buckets builders buy emulsion paint in, they sit next to me in the garden for weeds, leaves and other compost. I also fill them with rotted compost and sand mixed and grow carrots in them, they can easily be stood in odd places and moved if I want to grow something else, the different height also helps confuse carrot fly. Proper buckets would cost a fortune for an old man on a pension. If it is a garden clearing skip there are often flower pots in them as well, I give a lot of plants away and they all go in second hand pots.


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## The Backward OX (Mar 27, 2011)

> [ot]First it was Spider and his economy carrots. Now we have carrot fly. Perhaps there's a connection. Perhaps garsa knows about these things. They certainly don't exist in the An-tippo-deez.[/ot]


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## ewan (Mar 27, 2011)

I carve wood and wood is expensive. I love mahogany but mahogany is nigh well impossible to buy without big bucks. Drive around and examine builders skips, they are forever throwing out all kinds of second hand furniture much of it made in mahogany, cherry wood, beech, oak etc.


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## garza (Mar 27, 2011)

Many gardeners will make the mistake of spending money on pesticides to control such destructive pests as the carrot fly. BBC has some garden tips that include very good advice on organic methods of controlling such pests. See *here* 

The organic methods not only save money, they reduce the damage done to the garden environment by commercial insecticides.


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## Ditch (Mar 27, 2011)

I worked with a guy named Marvin who would bring his electric bill to work to show it to us. It was the minimum every month of around $49.00. He showered at work and turned off the water heater at home. He knew that he could turn it on for 30 minutes and have just enough water to take a quick shower. He unscrewed the light bulb in his refrigerator, pulled the stem on his watch at night so he could save the watch battery and ate cold vegetables out of the can so he wouldn't get used to heating them even though the microwave at work was free.

Another friend of mine wanted to shave at work but had no shaving cream. He made a lather out of soap and commented to Marvin on just how well it worked. I forget the numbers, but Marvin told him that he got 60 shaves out of a bar of soap and over 100 on a can of Foamy, he actually counted the shaves. He told me he wrote the date on a disposable razor and used it for 6 months. He cut his own hair gapping it badly in the back.

He hired on with Mobil when he was a teen, never married and always invested the maximum amount allowed. He also invested in outside sources and had probably over 2 million dollars in his accounts.


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## spider8 (Mar 27, 2011)

Oxy, Olly and Ewan - you're a bunch of pikies. I bet you're always ducking and diving, trying to get something for nothing. LOL.

Yes, I know people who shave at work to use work's hot water. They walk everywhere to save on petrol. They cadge lifts and beers off of me. I don't mind them being like this if they're genuinely hard up. But the friend I mentioned at the beginning - I spent three months buying him beers in the pub because he said he was skint, only to find that he was skint because he was putting most of his wages in a high interest account. To me that's almost like theft.

Olly, Ewan and Oxy, seriously, good ruses if you're hard up, good common sense. Yes, as long as it doesn't put other people out. 

I recently had a spring clean and took surplus magazines to the doctors, books and DVDs to the workplace etc. I bet some people will take them to sell on e-bay.

Here's a good ruse for some of you: when your soap dispenser is empty, take it to the supermarket, or on a train or anywhere where there's a toilet. Use the toilet first, of course, to save on toilet paper - in fact, _take_ the toilet paper roll if you can. Then open the top of the dispenser and fill it up with the supermarkets soap. (Of course, the time spent and aggro isn't logical, but what the hell). 

Here's another: Get a grape which is too light to weigh in the supermarket, so you get it for free. You leave with a free grape. Do this thirty times and hey presto! A free bunch of grapes.


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## spider8 (Mar 27, 2011)

Hey, I feel a book coming on _1001 ways to save money_.


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## Ditch (Mar 27, 2011)

Once my friend walked around the corner in the bath house just in time to see Marvin remove his underwear and smell them. He asked, "Damn Marvin! What are you trying to save money on now? Soap? Wash them!"


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## JosephB (Mar 27, 2011)

One of my favorite subjects. Saving money! 

I first learned to be extra cheap in college. My roommate and I would go to all you can eat places with zip lock bags in our back packs, and under the table, we'd fill them with food.

I got married pretty much right out of college and my wife was expecting. Starting graphic designers don't make jack, and my wife taught preschool at a church, so we were about at poverty level. 

We never went out to eat. Ever. Both brown-bagged our lunches. We mostly stayed home and watched free movies from the library. My wife made a lot of her clothes, we both bought clothes at consignment shops, and we shared a car for a good while. We had no furniture -- just a futon and two end tables, college-style board and cinder-block shelving. And we lived in a dump -- a partially renovated loft, with virtually no heat and no air. 

Bottom line - we just never bought anything we didn't absolutely need, and if we had to buy something, we bought it used. Fortunately, we got virtually everything we needed for the baby at baby showers. Even a good supply of diapers. 

Old habits die hard. We don't have to do any of that stuff any more, but we're still cheap. My wife is an avid coupon-clipper -- a great way to save if you don't buy things you wouldn't be buying anyway. We mostly use rags instead of paper towels. Things like that. We still buy lots of used stuff. I just bought a perfectly good, hardly-used lawnmower for a third the cost of a new one. My wife has a good-sized garden and grows lots of our vegetables. We still buy clothes for the girls at consignment shops and my wife still sews clothes for them and for herself. Just this past Christmas we bought a decent sized TV to replace the thing my folks gave us when we got married. (It was the one from their basement.)

And we still have a room in the house with no furniture -- our living room. For Christmas one year, we bought a ping-pong table for the basement.  I set it up in the living room "just for the holidays" and it's still there -- so the room has been put to good use.

When you're not under so much pressure, doing things to save becomes more of a game. But mostly we've both learned you really don't need a lot of stuff to be content.


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## spider8 (Mar 27, 2011)

Are you all just trying to wind me up?


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## ewan (Mar 27, 2011)

We can't answer in depth spider old boy. We're trying to save on ink.


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## Custard (Mar 27, 2011)

Well, I save every bit that I can, I walk for a few minutes so that the van fare decreases a level (20 to 13 rupees). Also Ibuy a 16 rupee 'nan' and chips sandwhich instead of buying a 70 rupee proper lunch (although the sandwhich is delicious).  One of the worst habits that I have is to lie, I lie even if I dont have to. Just can't kick that habit.


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## Baron (Mar 27, 2011)

Custard said:


> Well, I save every bit that I can, I walk for a few minutes so that the van fare decreases a level (20 to 13 rupees). Also Ibuy a 16 rupee 'nan' and chips sandwhich instead of buying a 70 rupee proper lunch (although the sandwhich is delicious).  One of the worst habits that I have is to lie, I lie even if I dont have to. Just can't kick that habit.


 Are you telling the truth?


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 27, 2011)

garza said:


> Many gardeners will make the mistake of spending money on pesticides to control such destructive pests as the carrot fly. BBC has some garden tips that include very good advice on organic methods of controlling such pests. See *here*
> 
> The organic methods not only save money, they reduce the damage done to the garden environment by commercial insecticides.


Carrot fly have trouble adjusting to changes in height, they tend to fly around the containers. Another way of beating them if you are growing in the ground is to grow a fairly small square and surround it with a polythene wall, the fly rise over the wall and miss the carrot patch.

I have seen that about they can smell carrots a mile away before, I always wondered how they know? Did some one follow a carrot fly making a bee line or is it just another urban myth?

By the way, I noticed this afternoon not all my containers are ex emulsion paint, I was using one that said "Pelleted organic chicken manure" this afternoon.


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## garza (Mar 27, 2011)

Olly - The BBC does not post, print, broadcast, or otherwise disseminate urban myths. Humph.

I save on the electric by taking cold showers. I've no choice. I've no water heater. This is Belize. Only the rich gringos around the corner in Consejo Shores have water heaters.


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## Writ-with-Hand (Mar 27, 2011)

spider8 said:


> I have people at work sitting next to me to read my paper *while I read it.*



That's too close for comfort and an invasion of someone's "personal space."


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## spider8 (Mar 27, 2011)

Writ-with-Hand said:


> That's too close for comfort and an invasion of someone's "personal space."


Yes. What's annoying is when I try to turn the page and they say 'Hold on' because they haven't finished reading something. The left arm comes out and blocks me from turning the page.


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## Eluixa (Mar 27, 2011)

I had a really cheap boyfriend. Couple of them actually.
My husband is not cheap. 
He's bought an extra room for the kids just so we could...
Yes, well, 'nuff said 'bout that.

We may well retire poor as we were born and share tea bags, but we are enjoying ourselves now. And we share.
This has always applied, even when we had next to nothing we gave as we could. Our parents were the same. I imagine it is taught.


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## The Backward OX (Mar 27, 2011)

garza said:


> I save on the electric by taking cold showers. I've no choice. I've no water heater. This is Belize. Only the rich gringos around the corner in Consejo Shores have water heaters.


 
Oh, come on. Olly and I are both pensioners, and neither of us have to put up with cold showers. There're all manner of el cheapo heating units for water - solar, LPG, drum balanced on roof, etc.

Anyway I have difficulty reconciling your statement elsewhere, about what seems to be zillions of dollars worth of computer and recording equipment in your office, with this one about not being able to afford a water heater. They can't both be right.


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## The Backward OX (Mar 27, 2011)

If I've somehow missed the connection, you could always get creative and offer to keep the rich gringos' carrot fly at bay in return for occasional hot showers.


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## The Backward OX (Mar 27, 2011)

Until Custard mentioned it, I'd forgotten about the trick of walking one block to reduce the bus fare.

Back in the days before ticket inspectors on trains, I'd travel, say, a 10-stop journey without a ticket. At my destination, when the ticket collector asked where I'd boarded the train, I'd name the previous station. That saved heaps, over the years.

As a kid, I could make free phone calls from a public phone. This was possible due to the design of the coin chute, which allowed two pennies to drop simultaneously and face-to-face. I'd glue the pennies together, with a piece of string stuck between them. When Button A was pushed, the coins would fall and activate the call-connecting mechanism. Then I'd simply keep my finger on the button while I hauled the coins out. 

Soap scraps. I save scraps of bath soap, when they're too small to create a lather, until I have a Tupperware container about half full of them. I add some boiling water, give it a stir, and wait for it to set. Then I break chunks off to use in my hot shower.


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## The Backward OX (Mar 27, 2011)

This one’s only anecdotal but given the source is prolly true. Some years ago I asked the local quack why there were so many sick pensioners in our town. He said, ‘It’s because they all eat cat food.’

I dunno what these mean old buggers waste their money on. I'm a pensioner and I eat like a king.


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## The Backward OX (Mar 28, 2011)

In my printer's manual, I found an instruction on how to use a paler shade of grey. Everything is still perfectly readable, and the ink cartridge lasts twice as long.


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## Dudester (Mar 28, 2011)

As far as being thrifty, soup is part of my diet. Throughout the 1980's, Campbell's soup was cheap, and a staple. In the 90's, it started getting more expensive. About ten years ago, I noticed a change in recipes (I didn't approve). It wasn't until a couple of years ago that I noticed that the change involved using high fructose corn syrup (YUCK !!). 

About this time, my market started selling a Canadian geberic soup-a lot cheaper and better recipe. Then, I noticed that they were just using the old Campbell's recipes.


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## spider8 (Mar 28, 2011)

Yes, Oxy. I've noticed some of your posts greyer than others, I had wondered why. Now I know. I've saved soap before- when the dispensers soap is so low the pump can't do it, I'm left with about  half an inch. The dregs of a few dispensers can fill a bottle. 
But this isn't meanness, it's annoyance at waste.

I have cold showers in the summer (only if it's hot weather, lovely). Not totally cold though, just cold enough to think it's nice and cool. If you were to drink it you'd think it lukewarm.


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## spider8 (Mar 28, 2011)

Dudester said:


> Throughout the 1980's, Campbell's soup was cheap, and a staple. In the 90's, it started getting more expensive. About ten years ago, I noticed a change in recipes (I didn't approve). It wasn't until a couple of years ago that I noticed that the change involved using high fructose corn syrup (YUCK !!).


I use a lot of canned chopped tomatoes. They differ depending on the manufacturer. Sainsbury's used to be better than tesco's and then vice-versa. Recently I had to get Napolina because they changed them. Now, only _organic _Napolina chopped tomatoes are of the standard the others used to have. I know there's a problem with supply of fresh tomatoes for some time.

But cans can't be a recipe problem - there isn't one. It's just canned tomatoes. There are really differences but I don't know what makes the differences.


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## The Backward OX (Mar 28, 2011)

spider8 said:


> But cans can't be a recipe problem - there isn't one. It's just canned tomatoes. There are really differences but I don't know what makes the differences.


Compare the small print on the back of cans from different suppliers. That's possibly where you'll find the answer.


nudge nudge: not all tomatoes are grown in W.Sussex.


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## The Backward OX (Mar 28, 2011)

“…some might pay for their Windows licence and their Office suite…” responded the OX, who went on to point out “…and some might have a tame hacker living down the street who invades Microsoft for sport and who passes on to his acquaintances, absolutely gratis, anything and everything he’s gathered into his parlour…” 





and then he remembered and added “…and anyone at all can download perfectly adequate and totally free anti-virus and anti-malware programs such as Avast! and Malwarebytes…”


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## JosephB (Mar 28, 2011)

So would you walk into a computer store and steal software off the shelf?


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## The Backward OX (Mar 28, 2011)

I forgot to mention, this guy has free games, and free movies, and free programs to fix just about anything that can happen to a computer. Why would I want to go to a computer store?

 He_ does_ charge for hardware.


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## spider8 (Mar 28, 2011)

JosephB said:


> So would you walk into a computer store and steal software of the shelf?


I would. I think if I stole £60's worth of software, I will then give $60 to charity. So sometimes stealing is a _good_ thing to do.


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## The Backward OX (Mar 28, 2011)

spider8 said:


> I think if I stole £60's worth of software, I will then give $60 to charity. So sometimes stealing is a _good_ thing to do.


 
Or,:idea:, you could go directly to the charity and ask what they needed that was worth sixty quid. Then you could do a Fagin, show them how to lift it for themselves, and thereby cut out the middleman.


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## garza (Mar 28, 2011)

Along Burns Avenue in San Ignacio Town in the evening and on weekends you'll find half a dozen kids from villages near by hawking their slate carvings to tourists. Some of these kids are very skilled, spending hours to turn out birds, turtles, Mayan calendars round, and Mayan gods. The money they earn is often a significant part of the family income. So if I walk by where this kid has his carvings spread out to show tourists, and he has his back turned explaining to someone the meaning of the symbols on the calendar round, and I can pick up one of his carvings and walk away without being caught, that's okay, right? In fact, it's something to be proud of, something I should brag about later. Tough luck, kid.

Open Office does not do what I need from a word processor. I need what Microsoft Word 2010 does, and I need it running in a properly licenced version of Windows so that updates and technical help are always available. Software engineers, well paid software engineers smarter than me, worked to develop that application and that platform. Such work is how they make their living. To steal their work is no different from stealing the slate carving from the kid.


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## Custard (Mar 28, 2011)

Well its not my place to say that I agree with Garza since everything I use is fake. the windows is fake, the internet explorer is fake, the jet audio I am listening songs on is cracked and even my favorite game (warcraft 3) is fake since I paid only 100 rupees for it (less than 1.5 dollars). though I will soon be using Linux sice it is free and I dont need to crack it


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## garza (Mar 28, 2011)

I run Linux on an elderly Pentium machine with 48 meg of RAM and a six gb hard drive. The version I use is Puppy One-Bone that has no GUI - all line command. It's a hobby. It's fun to explore what the computer can do with minimal resources. Vim is also a good text editor. But Linux will not do all I need a computer to do. Despite claims to the contrary, Open Office is no substitute for Microsoft Office.  

I've had dedicated Mac users tell me the same sort of thing, that for graphics work Apple is far and away superior to anything you might find free. One graphics professional told me how things are at the company where he works. He said everything in the back shop where the work is done is Apple, and everything in the front office where the business is managed is Microsoft. That makes sense.

I personally cannot justify to myself stealing the work another person has done. There is no difference between stealing software and stealing the slate carving from the kid. None.


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## BipBopRealGoodNop (Mar 28, 2011)

i'm generally not mean, but sometimes at school i rip up bits of paper and slip them into other people's pockets when they aren't looking.

Last year, I moved someone's chair when they sat down and they fell to the ground and slammed their head on a table!! I hate him, so I found it quite satisfying! (he didn't die and wasn't concussed)>

*WARNING: No shrivelled-up, wrinkly veiny school children were killed or hurt (seriously) in the process of moving the chair*


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## garza (Mar 28, 2011)

BipBopRealGoodNop - Delightful, yes, I'm sure. However, might I refer you to Oxford's Concise* p. 844 col. 2 where 'mean' is defined as an adjective meaning, quote, 'niggardly; not generous or liberal', end of quote.
*_The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Current English_, Ninth Edition, ed. Della Thompson, Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1995.

Now slipping bits of scrap paper into other people's packets might be defined as 'not generous or liberal', but if you are going to pursue such activities you really ought to make it worthwhile. When I was a lad I was known as a, well, as 'a bit of a lad' as is sometimes said, and often to get the attention of some lass whose attention I very much wanted I was in the habit of catching small green snakes and lizards and dropping them down the fronts of blouses. While this action often led to a slap across the face, such manoeuvres led just as often to other activities not involving miniature reptiles.  

As for the old 'pull out the chair' gag, that one can lead to injury and one should be dissuaded from its employment.


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## Custard (Mar 28, 2011)

I still remember when I used to pull out chairs...... got a 2000 rupee fine for it once ( you can guess why).


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## garza (Mar 28, 2011)

Custard - Pulled the wrong chair? That will have an adverse effect. 

Avoiding that will save money, as we return this thread to the rails.


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## Baron (Mar 28, 2011)

fleamailman said:


> *the goblin liked the ox*, saying "...yes but why waste time with scans then, and why slow down the machine with some vetting protection, also why tell microsoft that you are on line with their license each time, oh and why pay for it too where linux is free to begin with...", simply linux was as easy as getting a sober friend, if there was one, to install it on your computer while one could get on with the more important things in life like singing "tie my kangaroo down sport" while fending off saltwater crocodiles with ones trusted surf board once more, of course when one was not actually composing those sonnets to the beerbashing ozzy farer sex that is, in fact, the goblin could run linux sweet on the computer that windows couldn't even install on, in fact too, the goblin could run his linux from either a USB key, or even directly from the cd, explaining "...I worked years in a computer repair shop, where once I would have agreed with you, had I not noticed that I was just supporting their continued stupidity..."


 
Edna's been spotted yet again...


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## JosephB (Mar 28, 2011)

garza said:


> I've had dedicated Mac users tell me the same sort of thing, that for graphics work Apple is far and away superior to anything you might find free. One graphics professional told me how things are at the company where he works. He said everything in the back shop where the work is done is Apple, and everything in the front office where the business is managed is Microsoft. That makes sense.



There's a history with Macs and creative professionals -- going back 25 years or so. Because originally, the best applications for graphics like Illustrator, and old school apps like PageMaker and Quark, were for Macs. They had PC versions, but they sucked. Plus, graphics and design people just found the Mac OS to be more intuitive. Graphics folks stuck with them and it's what you use in design school.

Now, when you're actually working in the applications, like Illustrator, Photoshop, InDesign etc., there's very little difference between a PC and a Mac. 

People these days are dedicated Mac users because of the user experience, which is superior. Virtually no crashes or freeze-ups or hardware conflicts. At the ad agency where I work, everyone is on Macs, including the financial people. We have no issues. 

I've worked at agencies that are PC based, and there was always some geek running around fixing problems. I don't think I've seen an IT person once in the year I've been with this agency. 

Of course, the reason they work better is the OS is designed to run on a specific machine -- and they're just better machines. They cost more, but it's more than worth it. 

I hate PC's and Windows with a passion. Microsoft is complacent, and content to put out sh*t products, because most people feel they have no choice. 

Adobe, on the other hand, has the market cornered, but they _still _have outstanding products. Maybe they have a conscience and some integrity. That's why the best combination for the creative professional is Mac and Adobe. Both are companies that actually seem to care about quality and the user experience.


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## The Backward OX (Mar 29, 2011)

garza said:


> Open Office is no substitute for Microsoft Office.


 No one even mentioned Open Office, old man. 



> There is no difference between stealing software and stealing the slate carving from the kid. None.


Yes, there is. The subject was specifically Microsoft. Bill Gates has too much money.


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## The Backward OX (Mar 29, 2011)

garza said:


> I need what Microsoft Word 2010 does, and I need it running in a properly licenced version of Windows so that updates and technical help are always available.


 
I dunno how he does it, I just use the damn thing. It has a licence and I get updates.


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## WolfieReveles (Mar 29, 2011)

I make sure to download every movie before I pay for it to ensure it's worth paying for. Considering I worked in the industry for a while you'd think I was against piracy but I say it's the best invention ever. 
As a result I have quite a DVD collection, all legal and worth every peso/crown/penny/cent I payed. If I didn't pay for a certain movie, too bad. Had they made it better I would have bought it.

EDIT:
In the case of software: considering every PC you buy comes with Microsoft software pre-installed which adds to the price, you already payed for most of it once. If you need a newer version of Office I'd say it should count as a product update(ethically at least) and therefore no guilty consciences should be needed. After all, it's not the consumers fault that Microsoft decides to make everything obsolete so fast.

As for gamers and movie buffs, buy the games and movies you loved to make sure they continue to produce. Pirate everything else and instead of thinking "why the hell did I pay for that crap" you'll think "thank God I didn't pay for that crap"

There's my 2 pennies worth.


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## garza (Mar 29, 2011)

xO - Fleamailman mentioned Open Office in Post 31. How much money Bill Gates has is irrelevant. 

WolfieReveles - No PC I buy comes with anything installed. I buy mother board, cpu, disc drives, and all the other bits and pieces needed, then install the software I want to run. 

Microsoft keeps improving their products and that's why I keep buying Microsoft. And Microsoft makes using the computer simple. People who know nothing about computers can get Windows and MS Office up and running right out of the box if they'll just stop and read the directions. 

I do use freeware. I have Photoshop but tend to use GIMP more often. I've recently upgraded to Sound Forge Pro 10 but continue to use Audacity for routine audio editing because of its simplicity. I download free books from gutenberg.org.


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## TheFuhrer02 (Mar 29, 2011)

garza said:


> I have Photoshop but tend to use GIMP more often.



I use it, too! I find Ps just a tad more complicated than GIMP. Of course, when I want more detail, I tend to use Ps, bu GIMP is so simple to use, and delivers pretty much what Ps can.


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## The Backward OX (Mar 29, 2011)

garza said:


> I download free books from gutenberg.org.


 
Shock! Horror! The man is depraved. It's all this riotous Central American living, affecting his judgement.


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## garza (Mar 29, 2011)

xO - You were here for Carnival in our village? That's a nice shot of Isabel and Ramona, but the one in the middle I don't recognise. You must have brought her with you.


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## WolfieReveles (Mar 29, 2011)

garza said:


> No PC I buy comes with anything installed. I buy mother board, cpu, disc drives, and all the other bits and pieces needed, then install the software I want to run.


 
Ah in that case it's a slightly different scenario of course. I do believe one should contribute to the software developers, both out of solidarity and to ensure farther development. 

I do however feel that software is A. often overpriced, and B. goes obsolete or incompatible way too fast, and that is merely a technique to keep us consuming. I am against the idea of putting an expiration date on products, like by releasing the .docx format and cause trouble for earlier Office users without providing a solution for the people using the "old" software. They payed good money for it and it suited their needs. Instead of releasing a free patch that would remove incompatibility they start sabotaging their own users.

Hence I can support piracy against Microsoft or any other developer under certain conditions. Did they sell you a defective product(like Vista was) or sabotage the one you had(like an older version of Office)? Steal the working one, it's what you're entitled to: good, working software. And steal any software for a trial run, but if it's good, buy it or many good developers will die out. I think that if you are willing to make the effort you should simply make sure that your actions are in accordance with your own moral compass. It does imply putting thought into your actions all the time, but it gives you a different perspective on things. 

After all, the legal system has been broken for ages and always will be because it will always fail to cover the finer conditions of each case. Only personal ethics and a conscious mind can do that.


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## garza (Mar 29, 2011)

Microsoft software keeps improving, though not always in a straight line as noted with Vista. There are times when the improvements cause an incompatibility problem. This ought to be expected. A major change often will mean that the new product and the old product will not exactly match. This happened to Microsoft Office in the upgrade from Office 2003 to Office 2007. Should Microsoft not have made the change? Should they have avoided creating a better product? 

The new versions of Office are definitely better and easier to use. There is a compatibility problem, but it's not serious. For example, there is no problem running .doc files on the newer versions of Word. And there is a simple way of opening .docx files if you do not have Word 2007 or 2010. Rename the file with a .zip extension, unzip it, and the text and graphics will be available to use in a new .doc file.  

I have an old machine that has Windows Millennium Edition installed running Office 97. It is still usable, and I crank it up for a couple of hours every week to keep it in shape. It's not the fastest horse on the track, but it's capable of doing the work it was designed to do. No one has sabotaged it.


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## Custard (Mar 30, 2011)

Microsoft is a company that is supposed to be professional, they are supposed to test out a product and then release it. What is the use of a new engine when it dosen't work with any car that you have ever made.


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## garza (Mar 30, 2011)

Almost all Microsoft software is retro-compatible if only the user takes the time to read the directions. 

Would you really want a software company to stop making better products because the new products might not be compatible with products made ten years ago? That would shut down progress. Using that philosophy we would still be running Windows 3.1 on 80386 machines.

Office 2010 is capable of doing more and doing it more efficiently than any preceding version of Office. To achieve that required re-engineering all the applications included in the package using what had been learned with previous versions. Improving software almost always means some level of incompatibility, but that incompatibility was kept at as low a level as possible with MS Office. That's why Microsoft built a converter into Word 2007 and 2010 so that a .doc file could be opened and saved with no hassle. Going the other way requires a little work on the part of the user. You can convert .docx files to .doc files for older machines with a couple of minutes work. Big deal. 

The popular thing is to bash Microsoft. It's an easy target. Big targets are no problem to hit. You have to ask though, why did they get so big? Why do so many of us spend our dollars if Microsoft products are so bad? (Bill Gates should pay me for all this, but I would tell him to contribute a few dollars more to one of his charities.)

You can't stop the clock. With computer technology, both hardware and software, we are in a steep development phase comparable to where the automobile industry was a hundred years ago. Henry Ford tried to stop the clock with the Model T and lost millions of dollars and first place in sales as a result. If son Edsel had not gotten the stop-gap Model A into production while the old man finished the design work on the flathead V8, Ford Motor Company could well have become a very minor player among car companies. And by the way, the engines of the Model A and the 1932 Model 18 V8 were not compatible with the Model T. 

If Microsoft stops the development of new software, many of us who now run Windows will find ourselves running Mac OS X Snow Leopard, or whatever will be the next new product the folks at Apple come up with.


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## Custard (Mar 30, 2011)

Yes it is all compatible if we press the button that is found right next to the button found on step 552. Yes developement is necessary but putting out a software that has 33 bugs in it is simply wrong. they should at least try and reduce the number of bugs. It is easier to hit a big target but we don't hit something just because it is big, there must be stones lying about. Appel is not a small company either but I don't see people saying that their software has lots of bugs in it. I dont say that they should stop developing but they should at least show responsibility as a giant and make softwares with less bugs.


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## TheFuhrer02 (Mar 30, 2011)

Microsoft always uses that cycle. Recall ME? It was what XP should've been. How about Vista? It is what Windows 7 should've been. Is this irritating? Yes. But you have to admit, despite these bugs, Microsoft never fails to deliver. 

Oh, and releasing "Beta" phases of popular software proves that the programmers aim at finding the bugs that they originally can't.


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## garza (Mar 30, 2011)

I've not noticed any excessive number of bugs and I've recently upgraded all my Microsoft software, but then I don't pay much attention to the automatic updates if they don't ask me to reboot so there may be any number of bugs being fixed. It's all working, so I'm happy. I've got my money's worth.

Two things to remember. One is the complexity of the code needed for an application like Word. Take a look sometime at the code for Open Office. Just as a professional writer can occasionally misspell a word or make a grammatical slip that needs to be corrected, so too the software engineer, alleged to be equally human although we who follow the misadventures of Dilbert sometimes have our doubts, will make an error from time to time. Second, how egregious are the errors? A few weeks ago I installed Office 2010 and started using it right out of the box. So far there have been no problems whatever. It's used several hours every day and has been put through all its paces.

Apple is far smaller than Microsoft, but it too has its detractors who say it's all overpriced. I don't think that complaint comes from professional graphics designers who apparently believe that the money paid for Apple software is money well spent.


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## JosephB (Mar 30, 2011)

Microsoft is an imitator -- and they consistently put out software products that are barely adequate. Adobe, on the other, despite that they have the market cornered in several categories, consistently releases superior cross-platform products. 

Each upgrade adds useful, intuitive features, and somehow they're easier to use. I think Photoshop wins the prize for best software design in any category. I use it almost every day, and have yet to come across something I wish I could do differently or that I think is missing. Yet, with each release, Adobe manages to upgrade it somehow and  make it more useful. The thing is, they don't have to -- Photoshop is the standard and everyone would likely buy it anyway. But Adobe just keeps making it better. 

That pretty much holds true for all their products, many of which I use daily. And they took over an excellent line of products from Macromedia and made them even better. I've simply never been frustrated or disappointed by an Adobe product.


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## garza (Mar 30, 2011)

TheFuhrer02 - With Seven they got it right. As for beta releases, I'm a _big_ fan. It's a good chance to see what's on the way, help catch some bugs, and watch development in progress. I've still got a disc with the beta release of Windows 2000. That's probably a collector's item now.


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## TheFuhrer02 (Mar 30, 2011)

garza said:


> TheFuhrer02 - With Seven they got it right.



They really did. The interface was just brilliant. Sure, there were some highly annoying compatibility issues with Vista (if you're a gamer, you'll know), but Microsoft managed to get rid of that, plus add more with 7.



garza said:


> As for beta releases, I'm a _big_ fan. It's a good chance to see what's on the way, help catch some bugs, and watch development in progress.



I totally agree. Somehow, beta releases give you a glimpse of what the actual product will be, kinda like an insider's scoop.


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## JosephB (Mar 30, 2011)

garza said:


> With Seven they got it right.



Yes -- and it only took 25 years of screwing around and taking advantage of people. Congratulations, Microsoft!


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## Nale Gregev (Mar 31, 2011)

Ah. Very mean cheapos. Here is a good way to save money: Sell something.


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## JosephB (Mar 31, 2011)

Well, all that's great for you. But for anyone who needs to exchange documents with co-workers or clients that are created in specific applications like PowerPoint, Excel or Illustrator or Photoshop, Linux isn't an option.

And Macs aren't "prohibitive" to a lot of people who look at it as a cost-in-use proposition -- especially people who bill for their time. Down-time spent futzing around with crashes and conflicts and revamping etc. costs money. Peace of mind is worth something too.


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## garza (Mar 31, 2011)

fleamailman - It's hard to argue with what you say. Linux is an excellent platform, and old computers rescued from the junk pile can be given new life with it. But too much of what I do requires 100 percent compatibility with what many others are using, so I need Windows and its application programmes. I do have one machine with Linux installed, but it's used mainly to explore Linux. The distro I use has no GUI. It's command line driven, so it forces me to understand the system. I do some writing with it, using Vim.


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## garza (Mar 31, 2011)

My problem with distros like Debian is they are too fat. Not as fat, for sure, as Windows, but fatter than they need to be because of that bulky GUI. The real Linux experience only comes when you strip all that off and use only the command line. If your operating system uses more than 50 mb of storage space it's too fat.


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## spider8 (Apr 1, 2011)

Any chance of you lazy white-collar workers getting off IT and creating your own thread? But that's what you do. Parasites all, leeching off good blue-collars; getting rich, feet up, hands clean, making money - hand over fist. While we blues do the donkey work.

Actually, I think I may be on the wrong thread.

...ahem.


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## Olly Buckle (Apr 1, 2011)

I have been known to cut up plastic milk bottles to make plant labels for my seed pots. Not this year, I was given some for Christmas.


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## garza (Apr 1, 2011)

spider8 - No, you're in the right thread. It's for me to apologise for allowing the discussion to drift off course. 

Olly - Cut the tops off the plastic jugs and they make excellent planters. The little fellows make good seed cups while a collection of the larger ones can serve as a kitchen garden on the back porch. The gallon size bleach bottle with the slanty part cut off are perfect for tomatoes and sweet pepper. Keep them separated though to reduce pest problems. Plant cilantro with the tomatoes as added protection.


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## Custard (Apr 1, 2011)

I love those littel guys, back when I was in islamabad I had a small out door garden. I used test tubes from our chemistry lab to keep the small plants


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## garza (Apr 1, 2011)

Here's another use for the big plastic containers. Drill small holes in the screw-off lid and you have a sprinkler.


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## Olly Buckle (Apr 1, 2011)

3" and 4" pots for seed have always been in surplus, people buy bedding plants and ask you to plant them out, one is left with the pots, I have a bunch of larger pots from a garden shed clearance. It is always easier to grow in the ground if you can though.


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## The Backward OX (Apr 1, 2011)

Olly Buckle said:


> I have been known to cut up plastic milk bottles to make plant labels for my seed pots. Not this year, I was given some for Christmas.


 
That smacks of Big Brother. You're forced to grow godetias and calendulas and heliotropes and mignonettes and antirrhinums, just because that's what's on the labels.


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## The Backward OX (Apr 1, 2011)

garza said:


> Here's another use for the big plastic containers. Drill small holes in the screw-off lid and you have a sprinkler.


I assume you mean garden sprinkler. Imnsho, the water wouldn't go far, outside. But they _are_ useful for damping down wooden floors prior to sweeping. Keeps the dust from rising.


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## spider8 (Apr 2, 2011)

The Backward OX said:


> Compare the small print on the back of cans from different suppliers. That's possibly where you'll find the answer.
> 
> 
> nudge nudge: not all tomatoes are grown in W.Sussex.


I just did because of you.

The bad cans are 65% chopped tomatoes while the Organic Napolina is 70%, The other ingredients of Organic Napolina are citric acid and tomato juice. The other brands (that I looked at) don't say what the other 35% are.

I'm sure they must be in breach of some law.


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