# Copyright



## Mayfair (Oct 8, 2013)

I have a question about copyright. If you sell a story to a publisher and no contract is signed, how do you stand legally?


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## movieman (Oct 8, 2013)

How do you sell a story without a contract?


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## Bloggsworth (Oct 8, 2013)

Mayfair said:


> I have a question about copyright. If you sell a story to a publisher and no contract is signed, how do you stand legally?



Then you would be silly - Technically, I think one would be bound by the standard practices of the publishing business in which that particular publisher operates, something about which your and their lawyers would argue till one or both of you had run out of money....


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## Cran (Oct 8, 2013)

The question is not about copyright; it is about publishing rights. When you sell a story, you do not sell the copyright, you sell the right to publish. If there is no contract, then you can sell the right to publish again to another publisher who may have the commercial sense to sign an Exclusive Rights contract with you. After that, and for the duration of the contract, you can no longer legally sell the right to publish to another party, and the publisher with the contract can sue the pants off the publisher without the contract if the latter goes ahead and publishes.

Of course, having already sold the right to publish (even without a contract), you cannot again sell the First Rights. The chances are that if the second publisher knows about the first, then the contract offered would not be an Exclusive Rights contract but a Common or Non-Exclusive Rights contract which is worth less money to you.


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## Mayfair (Oct 8, 2013)

Cran said:


> The question is not about copyright; it is about publishing rights. When you sell a story, you do not sell the copyright, you sell the right to publish. If there is no contract, then you can sell the right to publish again to another publisher who may have the commercial sense to sign an Exclusive Rights contract with you. After that, and for the duration of the contract, you can no longer legally sell the right to publish to another party, and the publisher with the contract can sue the pants off the publisher without the contract if the latter goes ahead and publishes.
> 
> Of course, having already sold the right to publish (even without a contract), you cannot again sell the First Rights. The chances are that if the second publisher knows about the first, then the contract offered would not be an Exclusive Rights contract but a Common or Non-Exclusive Rights contract which is worth less money to you.


I thought this would be the case. Thanks.


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## Mayfair (Oct 8, 2013)

movieman said:


> How do you sell a story without a contract?


When you're just starting out in the business and don't know any better. :uncomfortableness:


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## Mayfair (Oct 8, 2013)

Bloggsworth said:


> Then you would be silly - Technically, I think one would be bound by the standard practices of the publishing business in which that particular publisher operates, something about which your and their lawyers would argue till one or both of you had run out of money....


I can't see how the publisher would have any rights, except to publish the stories once, when no contract has been signed. I believe this was standard practice when dealing in print only, which leads me to another question. Now that so many publishers are Internet based, would one single payment, made a decade ago, with no contract signed, give him the right to keep those stories for sale on his website forever?


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## movieman (Oct 8, 2013)

Mayfair said:


> When you're just starting out in the business and don't know any better. :uncomfortableness:



No, I mean, how do you sell a story without a contract? Without a contract, the publisher has no legal right to publish the story.

OK, it could be a verbal contract ('we'll print it and give you $50'), but I can't see any sane publisher relying on that.


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## shadowwalker (Oct 9, 2013)

If you submit a story, a publisher accepts it, and you accept payment for it - you have a contract. You have, by accepting payment, accepted the terms of publishing which no doubt are listed on their website or wherever you found the submission guidelines. If you need to know what rights you handed over, now is a bit late but read their guidelines and you'll know.


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## Mayfair (Oct 9, 2013)

shadowwalker said:


> If you submit a story, a publisher accepts it, and you accept payment for it - you have a contract. You have, by accepting payment, accepted the terms of publishing which no doubt are listed on their website or wherever you found the submission guidelines. If you need to know what rights you handed over, now is a bit late but read their guidelines and you'll know.


There were no terms of publication on their website, just submission guidelines as to length of story, etcetera. The stories were bought some 10 years ago and have been sold on their website ever since. That was bad enough, but last year they contracted the stories out to another publisher who has made them into a book. I contacted Amazon with the details and they've unpublished the book.


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## Mayfair (Oct 9, 2013)

movieman said:


> No, I mean, how do you sell a story without a contract? Without a contract, the publisher has no legal right to publish the story.
> 
> OK, it could be a verbal contract ('we'll print it and give you $50'), but I can't see any sane publisher relying on that.



I absolutely agree. Without a written contract the publisher has no rights whatever.


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## shadowwalker (Oct 9, 2013)

Mayfair said:


> There were no terms of publication on their website, just submission guidelines as to length of story, etcetera. The stories were bought some 10 years ago and have been sold on their website ever since. That was bad enough, but last year they contracted the stories out to another publisher who has made them into a book. I contacted Amazon with the details and they've unpublished the book.



I must confess, I find it hard to believe there was no mention of publication rights on the website. Typically those are located within or right below the submission guidelines. Could you PM me the name of the publisher please?



Mayfair said:


> I absolutely agree. Without a written contract the publisher has no rights whatever.



Not so. The contract is the submission guidelines, your submission, their acceptance of the submission, and payment which you accepted. If, as you state, there was no mention of publication rights, then the only way to determine that would be through the courts, who would look at the submission guidelines as well as any public statements concerning authors/rights/etc. But you did have a contract according to business law.


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## Mayfair (Oct 9, 2013)

shadowwalker said:


> I must confess, I find it hard to believe there was no mention of publication rights on the website. Typically those are located within or right below the submission guidelines. Could you PM me the name of the publisher please?
> 
> 
> 
> Not so. The contract is the submission guidelines, your submission, their acceptance of the submission, and payment which you accepted. If, as you state, there was no mention of publication rights, then the only way to determine that would be through the courts, who would look at the submission guidelines as well as any public statements concerning authors/rights/etc. But you did have a contract according to business law.


If this were the case then why did the publisher that the original publisher leased the stories out to offer me 50% royalties on the book? This is evidence in itself that they recognise what they are doing is illegal. I've dealt with enough publishers over the years to know what is right and what isn't. I've also never seen any terms of publication included in submission guidelines.


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## shadowwalker (Oct 10, 2013)

Mayfair said:


> If this were the case then why did the publisher that the original publisher leased the stories out to offer me 50% royalties on the book? This is evidence in itself that they recognise what they are doing is illegal. I've dealt with enough publishers over the years to know what is right and what isn't. I've also never seen any terms of publication included in submission guidelines.



Well, again, without details it's hard to discuss, but I would say the offer of 50% royalties was simply that - an offer. You could try to negotiate for more or they could've offered less. It's certainly not an admission of illegality. As to the terms of publication, I've seen them included often enough to be surprised these folks aren't including them. But unless you can come up with proof that they are using publication rights you did not specifically agree to, I don't see anything illegal here. As I said earlier, if you accepted payment, you accepted their terms. If you didn't know what terms you were agreeing to, well, it's not their problem, is it?


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## Mayfair (Oct 10, 2013)

shadowwalker said:


> Well, again, without details it's hard to discuss, but I would say the offer of 50% royalties was simply that - an offer. You could try to negotiate for more or they could've offered less. It's certainly not an admission of illegality. As to the terms of publication, I've seen them included often enough to be surprised these folks aren't including them. But unless you can come up with proof that they are using publication rights you did not specifically agree to, I don't see anything illegal here. As I said earlier, if you accepted payment, you accepted their terms. If you didn't know what terms you were agreeing to, well, it's not their problem, is it?


Amazon obviously doesn't agree with your opinion on this -- I gave them the details and told them no contract had been signed --  and they've removed the book of my stories from sale. My next step is to contact the website owner where my stories are still being sold. I'll post an update on the outcome, when it becomes available.


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## shadowwalker (Oct 11, 2013)

Amazon's decisions are not always based on law - more often, it's just covering their behinds. 

I'd still like to know who this publisher is.


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