# posting your work?



## abacoian (Jan 28, 2011)

hi all,

i'm goofy, i always worry about posting my photography, now writing on-line for critiiqe, but then i worry about someone deciding they want to take it as their own.  so, does anyone else worry about this and what do you do? thank you.

ian


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## Gumby (Jan 28, 2011)

I think we all have those worries to some extent, Ian. But the truth is this, even well known published authors can be plagiarized. It does happen. However, posting something here gives you a _dated proof_ of authorship, which you can use to show that you wrote it first.


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## Ditch (Jan 28, 2011)

Gumby, I was told on another forum that if you did post your work say here, that it was considered "published" and no agent would touch it. Is that true?


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## Baron (Jan 28, 2011)

Ditch said:


> Gumby, I was told on another forum that if you did post your work say here, that it was considered "published" and no agent would touch it. Is that true?


 
Those who are concerned about first publishing rights can post their work in the Writers' Workshop.  It is accessible to members only and was set up specifically for this reason.


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## Ditch (Jan 28, 2011)

Thank you Baron, I made a private forum and 5-6 people followed my first three novels as I wrote them. So this private forum is considered unpublished, right?


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## abacoian (Jan 28, 2011)

Hey Baron,

I don't see the writers workshop link, can you point me to the link please? Thank you


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## Baron (Jan 28, 2011)

abacoian said:


> Hey Baron,
> 
> I don't see the writers workshop link, can you point me to the link please? Thank you



http://www.writingforums.com/writers-workshop/


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## abacoian (Jan 28, 2011)

I found it thank you. I posted my first chapter there


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## TheFuhrer02 (Jan 31, 2011)

So I can post my whole novel (as if I have one at the moment) at the Writers Workshop and if I decide to have it published in say, two years from now, I'll still have my rights on it without anyone copying it?

If so, then that sub-forum gets +10 in coolness for me.


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## Dudester (Feb 1, 2011)

The one thing nobody has discussed here-although your work is considered copyrighted, there are nefarious people who still steal, at least part of your work. You must now be on guard. When you discover that your work has been stolen, you must act quickly and not pussyfoot around it. Let the offender know that your work is copyrighted and that they are now violating federal law. If you don't act decisively, they can get a lawyer to say that you inferred that they could use it.


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## KrisMunro (Feb 1, 2011)

I don't see much risk of someone taking your work, but I wouldn't be posting the entire novel either. Find one or two people on the forums that you talk to directly, and offer them the chance to read it and give feedback (I'm assuming this is what you're after).

If it makes you feel any better, write a quick disclaimer within the email/message stating that you're passing the work over for a specific reason, and that the act in no way gives them any right to use or redistribute it in any way.

Again, I don't think that there's really a need for such things, but most people here will understand that you are concerned about your work and want to protect it. We'll not be upset or offended at you maintaining ownership of it. At the end of the day, it's not really about trust (or distrust), but about fear of losing your work.


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## Baron (Feb 1, 2011)

Those members who are experienced and published seem to have no fears concerning plagiarism.  It always seems to be the big concern of the new writer.  Many should ask themselves if their work is even worth stealing.


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## KrisMunro (Feb 1, 2011)

Baron said:


> Those members who are experienced and published seem to have no fears concerning plagiarism.  It always seems to be the big concern of the new writer.  Many should ask themselves if their work is even worth stealing.


 Mine is  that's why I'm cutting the next bit of extremely talented wit and humour from my post for fear of someone using it in their work. But I hope you appreciate exactly how fantastically impressive it is. 

[snipped text]

1: think up great story
2: write fantastic story
3: edit brilliant story
4: ???
5: profit


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## TheFuhrer02 (Feb 1, 2011)

Baron said:


> Those members who are experienced and published seem to have no fears concerning plagiarism.  It always seems to be the big concern of the new writer.  Many should ask themselves if their work is even worth stealing.


 
Ouch. Sorry if I asked an annoying question. 

To be honest, I don't even have anything written yet, apart from a few brainstorms.


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## Sam (Feb 1, 2011)

TheFuhrer02 said:


> Ouch. Sorry if I asked an annoying question.
> 
> To be honest, I don't even have anything written yet, apart from a few brainstorms.


 
Let me put it to you like this: There are millions of aspiring writers out there. Some are brilliant, others are mediocre, but the chances of either taking your (generic) work, calling it their own, and getting it published are about a million to one. As Baron said, it is a fear mostly held by new writers, and an unfounded one at that.


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## KrisMunro (Feb 1, 2011)

It may not be as unfounded as you make it seem. There is some small evidence of people having their work stolen (not from here of course). And it is a legitimate concern people have; especially when they don't know how the system works.

As it stands, most people are going to be mediocre writers. But even these are going to prize their own work and find value in their own efforts. A person's writing skill may be an argument for people not stealing their work, but likely shouldn't be used as an argument for why people should not be worried about other people stealing their work. For all we know, TheFuhrer may be a young writing genius who's yet to display his(?) talents. It would be a shame for him to post something that he's spent years on, and risk a legal battle because he was told not to worry.

But saying all that.. there likely isn't anything to worry about.


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## TheFuhrer02 (Feb 1, 2011)

^ True.

And to both Baron and Sam W, my deepest apologies. I fear my mundane question had triggered this now-seemingly-unnecessary argument. I have to admit, I am a new writer, unlike most of you here. I have been writing short shorts since I was in high school, but these were child's play, and with only me, my aunt and my younger brother (and sometimes my father) as readers. Come to think of it, the stories I write now are still child's play anyway, seeing as the only finished works I have are a couple of fan-fictions (at another website).

Regardless, thanks to both your answers. I actually agree with you, that I myself tend to have some sort of fear of my works being stolen, well and in fact that I am a mere newbie and these fields. My fear, or rather, anxiety, is but, as you've said, "unfounded."

Phew, that was a long post.


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## KrisMunro (Feb 1, 2011)

This isn't really an argument. Things don't often get heated here, and the moderators know well enough when to step in. Nothing to worry about.

My partner writes at some fan-fiction sites, and she's pretty popular. Not that I'm prepared to say who she is. She's often toyed with the idea of writing something to sell, but while she gets many thousands of readers for each of her short stories (per month), she's not really ready to move into the next stage. Maybe one day, even if my stories don't make any money, I'll be able to retire off of her success


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## Sam (Feb 1, 2011)

KrisMunro said:


> It may not be as unfounded as you make it seem. There is some small evidence of people having their work stolen (not from here of course). And it is a legitimate concern people have; especially when they don't know how the system works.



I have heard of people being booted off sites for plagiarism, of course. That does happen, but not with any great regularity. At least not from what I've seen here and my time as a moderator on another writing forum. That being said, my point was not that it didn't happen, but that the chances of someone being successful with a stolen piece of work is really infinitesimal. 



			
				TheFuhrer02 said:
			
		

> And to both Baron and Sam W, my deepest apologies



You didn't do anything which requires apology, Fuhrer.  You're expressing opinion, as am I. It's natural to fear that your work may be stolen. I'm just letting you know it's nothing to worry about.


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## Baron (Feb 1, 2011)

I have known of only one real case of plagiarism in all the time I've been involved here.  The person in question wasn't copying from the forums but was posting work from blogs and published works as her own.  She was posting these on pretty well all the major writing forums and, needless to say, she was found out.

There's an easy check to see if anyone has copied any of your work.  Just take key phrases and enter them, in quotes, into a Google search.  If your work has been copied and posted online then it'll show up and you can take whatever action is necessary.  Either the Word date stamp or the date of posting on the forum will serve as evidence that you posted it first so the property is yours.


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## Foxee (Feb 1, 2011)

> I'm just letting you know it's nothing to worry about.


I'm not sure that this is something to give an ironclad guarantee on. Anyone can do anything at any time. 

I doubt that there is a great danger but if it worries you, do as Baron suggested. I think the main thing here is to realize that you're either going to put your work out there or you won't. If you're too frightened of someone stealing your work you'll keep it in your notebook just like if you're too frightened of your car being stolen you'll lock it up and never go anywhere.


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## Baron (Feb 1, 2011)

I see your post as expressing your own unique view, flea.  Helpful is questionable bearing in mind what the purpose of this site is.  Primarily it's for workshop and critique and if those elements weren't here then no site would exist for you to post on.


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## Foxee (Feb 1, 2011)

*GASP!!* Flea, are you okay? I actually understood that! 

Perhaps my translator is working now.


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## Baron (Feb 1, 2011)

fleamailman said:


> "...if someone has qualms about posting their actual works here, which is what original post is about now, then being a writer they only have to adapt their works into posts to air it here, which without malice is an opinion that might be unique, yes, but hardly something too difficult to comprehend now..." replied the goblin


 
I'll just remind you of the purpose of this site and ask you to bear in mind that I'm not prepared to allow this thread to be hijacked into an argument about that purpose.


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## KrisMunro (Feb 1, 2011)

At the end of the day, no idea is original, so it's really only a fear of someone taking something/anything that you've written and making use of it. There's also a distinction between how that use affects the original writer.

If, for example, I post a section of my story here and someone else expands on the concept and creates their own story from it. It is something like plagiarism, and it could conceivably reduce my chances of getting my story published (because it's been done already). An alternative is for my submitted story to be stolen completely by someone and published as their own work, thereby preventing me from publishing the work at all; until a legal battle is concluded.

But there's also the danger of the common everyday posts we make being used by other people. Those posts that we have no intention of serving any further purpose, but someone else sees value in them. I could ask how the goblin would feel if he saw his collected works being displayed on a pay-to-view website. Or how any one of us would feel if one of our comments in here was copied word for word and displayed as another person's thoughts elsewhere. Sure, we had no intention of doing anything more with the comments, but that someone else is gaining something from them could cause concern.

An example I've seen recently is with game guides. I do a google search for something specific, and I see a page full of helpful results within the google list. Only each (different) website has the same content word for word, but is being claimed as their own. I'm left wondering whether the author of the work is upset about the widespread use of his/her efforts. Surely these websites make money from displaying the information.. 

In short, there's always going to be a small danger of people using our words, not simply as we have written them, but also our ideas for stories, plots, and hooks. We are all here to learn from each other after all. You cannot get feedback from someone without also giving them insight into a new story idea that you've created.


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## TheFuhrer02 (Feb 1, 2011)

@ Flea: To quote Marlin from Finding Nemo, "It's like he's trying to speak to me, I know it!" 

Seriously, I can only have a vague idea of what you meant, despite reading through your posts for three times.



KrisMunro said:


> In short, there's always going to be a small danger of people using our words, not simply as we have written them, but also our ideas for stories, plots, and hooks. We are all here to learn from each other after all. You cannot get feedback from someone without also giving them insight into a new story idea that you've created.



Very well said. Amen to that, brother!


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## Baron (Feb 1, 2011)

KrisMunro said:


> At the end of the day, no idea is original, so it's really only a fear of someone taking something/anything that you've written and making use of it. There's also a distinction between how that use affects the original writer.
> 
> If, for example, I post a section of my story here and someone else expands on the concept and creates their own story from it. It is something like plagiarism, and it could conceivably reduce my chances of getting my story published (because it's been done already). An alternative is for my submitted story to be stolen completely by someone and published as their own work, thereby preventing me from publishing the work at all; until a legal battle is concluded.
> 
> ...


 
You seem to have a very paranoid view of the internet in general.




Foxee said:


> I'm not sure that this is something to give an ironclad guarantee on. Anyone can do anything at any time.
> 
> I doubt that there is a great danger but if it worries you, do as Baron suggested. I think the main thing here is to realize that you're either going to put your work out there or you won't. If you're too frightened of someone stealing your work you'll keep it in your notebook just like if you're too frightened of your car being stolen you'll lock it up and never go anywhere.


 
^^This^^


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## KrisMunro (Feb 2, 2011)

Baron said:


> You seem to have a very paranoid view of the internet in general.


I'd be happier if you responded to why you think my comments aren't valid, rather than say that you think I'm paranoid. You've come close to an insult with your comment.

(Foxee's comment isn't anything for or against what I've said. It's almost a continuation of it.)


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## Baron (Feb 2, 2011)

KrisMunro said:


> I'd be happier if you responded to why you think my comments aren't valid, rather than say that you think I'm paranoid. You've come close to an insult with your comment.
> 
> (Foxee's comment isn't anything for or against what I've said. It's almost a continuation of it.)


 
I don't think so...




> Originally Posted by Foxee
> 
> ... if frightened of your car being stolen you'll lock it up and never go anywhere.


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## Foxee (Feb 2, 2011)

Kris, my point is to acknowledge that there is a slight risk that some crackpot might try to take what you've written and pass it off as their own but don't let that be a big fear that stops you from putting work out there. Go! Do! You can't live life scared.

Write, write, write...and publish.


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## Ditch (Feb 2, 2011)

I have no delusions of my work being stolen, but I was told on another writers forum that if you put the story out there anywhere, it is considered published and an agent won't touch it.


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## Foxee (Feb 2, 2011)

That's why we've got the Writer's Workshop. If you post there for critique that is protected and keeps it for WF members only to view.


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## KrisMunro (Feb 2, 2011)

Foxee said:


> Kris, my point is to acknowledge that there is a slight risk that some crackpot might try to take what you've written and pass it off as their own but don't let that be a big fear that stops you from putting work out there. Go! Do! You can't live life scared.
> 
> Write, write, write...and publish.


 I agree, entirely. I think you've taken my explanations of some of those small risks as me believing they are big problems.

Ditch: showing your work online may feel like 'publishing' to some people, but only once someone, such as a publisher, has claimed rights to distribute your work will you be restricted in posting it elsewhere. It's yours alone, to do with as you wish.


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## Foxee (Feb 2, 2011)

Yes, Kris, just be aware that if that same publisher sees that the same piece is up on a public place where anyone can read it, even if it totally belongs to you, they very well may consider it 'published' and will pass. Hence the protected forum.


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## KrisMunro (Feb 2, 2011)

Sure, I sort of assumed people who were looking at publishing their work, wouldn't be posting it about for everyone else to have freely.


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## ainsley (Feb 9, 2011)

Forgive me if I'm overstepping boundaries here, because as of now I'm less than an hour old on these forums.

I am by no means a "new" writer, I'm just not yet established.  But I had the same hesitations about joining a writer's forum at all, so I was very happy to see that someone else had voiced concerns regarding possible plagiarism.  I have invested so much time into becoming the writer I am, and into each separate piece; I'm concerned about the safety of my work in a public forum.  Clearly not overly concerned - I joined, after all.

I'm concerned, though, that the rather cold remarks toward the very concept that we should be concerned about the safety of our work are shutting down a possibly interesting and informative topic of conversation.  And comments like this:


> Those members who are experienced and published seem to have no fears concerning plagiarism. It always seems to be the big concern of the new writer. Many should ask themselves if their work is even worth stealing.


aren't constructive at all.


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## Baron (Feb 9, 2011)

ainsley said:


> Forgive me if I'm overstepping boundaries here, because as of now I'm less than an hour old on these forums.
> 
> I am by no means a "new" writer, I'm just not yet established.  But I had the same hesitations about joining a writer's forum at all, so I was very happy to see that someone else had voiced concerns regarding possible plagiarism.  I have invested so much time into becoming the writer I am, and into each separate piece; I'm concerned about the safety of my work in a public forum.  Clearly not overly concerned - I joined, after all.
> 
> ...


 
You may not consider it constructive but that doesn't make it any less true.  The fact that there are experienced, published writers who are posting on this site, as well as on other forums, speaks by example.


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## KrisMunro (Feb 9, 2011)

Baron said:


> You may not consider it constructive but that doesn't make it any less true.  The fact that there are experienced, published writers who are posting on this site, as well as on other forums, speaks by example.


 I have to disagree... Sure, it's true that experienced writers may be posting without much fear of their work being stolen. And the comment not being constructive doesn't change this view you have. But the comment itself really isn't constructive.

The example experienced writers set by posting their work without concern doesn't provide any insight as to why they aren't concerned. There could be a number of safety precautions that experienced writers know about that they do behind the scenes. To suggest that someone should feel fine about posting their work, just because other people do it, isn't helpful. You may fully understand what the act 'speaks' of, but other people aren't aware of it. The purpose behind this thread is to gather these details.. not to be pressured into posting because you believe it's safe.


Edit: I'm also not convinced that authors post sections of work they intend to have published within forums like this. It's likely that I'm 'out of the loop' so to speak, but I haven't seen someone post sections from a book that have later been published in a novel. The concept of 'posting your work without much concern' may create legal issues with publishing houses later, especially if someone within the forum passed the work to a friend, who passed it to another friend, etc. I've seen the results of authors draft-work that have been leaked and become available to the public via the internet. While the people here may be well meaning, it only takes a bad judgment call to ruin someone's efforts.


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## Gumby (Feb 9, 2011)

I found this to be helpful in explaining what is published.



What Is Considered Previously Published Writing?


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## Baron (Feb 9, 2011)

KrisMunro said:


> I have to disagree... Sure, it's true that experienced writers may be posting without much fear of their work being stolen. And the comment not being constructive doesn't change this view you have. But the comment itself really isn't constructive.
> 
> The example experienced writers set by posting their work without concern doesn't provide any insight as to why they aren't concerned. There could be a number of safety precautions that experienced writers know about that they do behind the scenes. To suggest that someone should feel fine about posting their work, just because other people do it, isn't helpful. You may fully understand what the act 'speaks' of, but other people aren't aware of it. The purpose behind this thread is to gather these details.. not to be pressured into posting because you believe it's safe.


 
If this was the only post that I'd made then I'd agree with you, perhaps.  If you care to read back through this thread, and the many others that have appeared on this site in regard to this particular issue, then you'll find that there are posts that go into the issues of plagiarism and how to guard against it as well as issues relating to first publishing rights.  The post that was regarded as unhelpful was actually posted when these other posts were ignored by people who kept repeating the same fears and showing no regard to the posts of experienced members.


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## KrisMunro (Feb 9, 2011)

Baron said:


> If this was the only post that I'd made then I'd agree with you, perhaps.  If you care to read back through this thread, and the many others that have appeared on this site in regard to this particular issue, then you'll find that there are posts that go into the issues of plagiarism and how to guard against it as well as issues relating to first publishing rights.  The post that was regarded as unhelpful was actually posted when these other posts were ignored by people who kept repeating the same fears and showing no regard to the posts of experienced members.


 Quite so, but I'd expect that the responses failed to alleviate those fears. So a simply 'other people do it' isn't likely to offer anything that's of use to people who are concerned about it.

I appreciate that you've tried to help, but there's two people who have taken the words in a way that you didn't likely intend. It may just be a misunderstanding, but at the end of the day, the words aren't beneficial to us from where we stand.


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## Baron (Feb 9, 2011)

KrisMunro said:


> Quite so, but I'd expect that the responses failed to alleviate those fears. So a simply 'other people do it' isn't likely to offer anything that's of use to people who are concerned about it.
> 
> I appreciate that you've tried to help, but there's two people who have taken the words in a way that you didn't likely intend. It may just be a misunderstanding, but at the end of the day, the words aren't beneficial to us from where we stand.


 
If my intention was anything other than what I wrote then I should never call myself a writer.


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## KrisMunro (Feb 9, 2011)

Baron said:


> If my intention was anything other than what I wrote then I should never call myself a writer.


It's impossible to write something in a specific way and have everyone grasp the exact same message. Besides.. your claim when measured against my words suggests that you intended your comment to be unhelpful. I doubt that.

Also, within that link Gumby posted I found this:


> The Internet can be a wonderful resource, especially for those who don’t have critique groups  or workshops available in their area. Unfortunately, very talented  writers who just happened to workshop their writing online are getting  caught in the cross fire between editors, agents, and the rapidly  evolving question of “What is previously published writing?”  There are journal editors and literary agents who don’t really care  about work published on small Web sites. Did you put a story up on a  message board for critique? Have you posted a chapter of your manuscript  on your blog? As long as the work isn’t plagiarized from someone else,  some literary agents and editors don’t mind if the writing has appeared  online.
> 
> But until the industry fully adjusts to the presence of the Internet,  many literary agents and editors are going to simply reject work they  consider to be previously published. At this point, the best option for  writers is to play it safe until the rules become clearer.


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## Baron (Feb 9, 2011)

KrisMunro said:


> It's impossible to write something in a specific way and have everyone grasp the exact same message. Besides.. your claim when measured against my words suggests that you intended your comment to be unhelpful. I doubt that.
> 
> Also, within that link Gumby posted I found this:


 
Yes, and the extract that you've posted, if read alone, will reawaken those fears that have already been addressed in this thread.  That same link also explains how works on non-public boards (such as the writers' workshop on this site) are not considered previously published.  this has also been addressed already in this thread.  It also mentions that work that's posted only for a short period, and is then removed once the required feedback is obtained, is not effected.

In addition to this, a first or second draft posted on the forums for feedback will not be regarded in the same light as a polished and finished piece of work.


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## spider8 (Feb 10, 2011)

As has been mentioned before, I think ideas are more likely to be stolen or perhaps _influential. _

I posted something like the following a few years ago, but as there's new members I'll repeat it.

A few years ago, Yann Martel (at the time a struggling writer) read about a Brazillian book called _Max and the Cats_. It was about a jewish zookeeper who was fleeing the nazis with his animals on a ship. The ship sunk and he found himself on a lifeboat with a black panther (the panther represented naziism). The book was out of print and Martel rehashed it into _Life of Pi_, this time an indian boy on the lifeboat with a tiger, a zebra, and orang-utan. It _was_ a great book and won Martel the Booker Prize. Martel has been quite open about it.

A couple of years ago Jeffrey Archer wrote _A Prisoner of Birth_ which is a modern version of _The Count of Monte Christo_. Also a great book.

I just can't see anyone perusing these sites to steal prose. As far as ideas are concerned, I think the execution of these ideas, or luck in getting them published, is more important. Archer writes basic, competent prose, but is great at telling a story.

I've been told that Archer has had court cases against him in the past for stealing ideas, but wins because it's generally understood that although writers _do_ steal ideas, it's almost impossible to prove and I don't even know if it's illegal. I'm not saying this is okay, it's just the way it is. People think so similarly that whatever brilliantly original idea you're thinking of could easilly have been imagined up by someone else anyway.


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## Sam (Feb 10, 2011)

It's not illegal, Spider. Ideas can't be copyrighted. If it's blatant -- like writing a novel about a young boy, who's called Parry Hotter, becoming a wizard and who has two best friends, male and female, joining him on his journey -- the chances of me being sued for misrepresentation are quite high. But there are now dozens of stories about wizards and witches out there after the first _Harry Potter_. Likewise, _Twilight _has also started a fad of vampire and werewolf stories. As long as it's not an obvious and blatant plagiarism, an author can't really do anything about it. 

Of course, you lose credibility when people realise you're just copying someone else's ideas. I guess that has to be punishment enough.


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