# No more EU



## Schrody (Jun 24, 2016)

I just opened the newspapers, and there, on the headline: "Britain's leaving EU" I'm shocked, I thought (I was sure) your referendum would go as the Scottish one did. How are you feeling? Personally, I don't think "consequences" will be that drastic as they're predicting, but what do I know? Talk, but please, stay civil.

Also, I probably won't be able to travel there with only my ID anymore (because you can inside of the EU)


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## Ultraroel (Jun 24, 2016)

I expected the same. 
Still, I'm heavily against the way the EU has been evolving as a governmental institution.
Let's hope the EU hollows out very soon. 

I was pro-EU when I lived in the Netherlands, but if I look at what it did and does to Bulgaria, I think it would be better to leave.
I.e. the refugee crisis. Refugees are expected to be helped, housed and medically taken care of.  While the older population of the country suffers with an income of 200 euro a month, and hardly any medical care.

The EU is a money-devouring machine, with no real supervision and with too much authority.
It's very scary in my opinion.


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## Schrody (Jun 24, 2016)

I was against EU on our referendum... Yes, refugees should be helped, but they should be helped by richer countries...


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## dither (Jun 24, 2016)

I'm not totally convinced that we shall in fact leave the EU.
It's a long drawn out process, but if we do leave i think others will follow.


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## Schrody (Jun 24, 2016)

dither said:


> I'm not totally convinced that we shall in fact leave the EU.
> It's a long drawn out process, but if we do leave i think others will follow.



I'm pretty sure that the results of the referendum are obligatory - at least, they are in my country. Anyway, newspapers are mentioning a period of 7 years for leaving, so it won't happen over night.


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## dither (Jun 24, 2016)

yes of course,the result stands and wheels will be set in motion. We shall see eh ?
A lot can happen in seven years.


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## PiP (Jun 24, 2016)

How am I am feeling? Numb.

Although, I am in shock, the result does not come as a surprise because many Brits essentially have an island mentality. I listened to the arguments when we were back in the UK and they seemed to be levelled at the lack of control on immigration.

We live in Portugal, we have European driving licenses, healthcare etc. Our money is in the UK because banks here are too unstable so we are going to be stuffed by the exchange rate which will dramatically  impact on our cost of living. We travel extensively across Europe, so God only knows how exiting the club will affect costs of air fares and freedom of movement in general. 

Then there is the more serious issue of what will happen to all the Brits living and working across Europe - will we have the right to remain or will we require visas etc.? I just don't know.

I just hope the leave campaigners are prepared to pay for the long term consequences of their decision. 

We we were a strong country with the Commonwealth. Will we be again... I don't know. I have not felt English for a long time.

ETA... The Prime Minister has just resigned so nothing will happen for three months until the new guy takes office.


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## Ultraroel (Jun 24, 2016)

Schrody said:


> I'm pretty sure that the results of the referendum are obligatory - at least, they are in my country. Anyway, newspapers are mentioning a period of 7 years for leaving, so it won't happen over night.



Yeha like in the Netherlands, 2 months ago.
We had a referendum about a cooperation with Ukraine. Majority was against, still got put through..
I hope your politicians are more reliable than ours.



PiP said:


> How am I am feeling? Numb.
> 
> Although, I am in shock, the result does not come as a surprise because Brits essentially have an island mentality. I listened to the arguments when we were back in the UK and they seemed to be levelled at the lack of control on immigration.
> 
> ...




Seems like a lot of people from the UK here. If it comes to Visa's etc, i already heard some of them talking of trying to get Bulgarian citizenship.
Mayeb Portugal would allow you to do the same. 
The thing is with the banks though


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## Patrick (Jun 24, 2016)

The problem is, those in Brussels don't understand the British mentality. They kept calling our bluff, refusing to give us any substantial treaty reform, and then they tried to bully us into staying within the union. But this kind of behaviour doesn't work on us, because we've always had a strong sense of independence. We're an island and have as much of a can-do mentality as the United States.

This whole attempt to scare the British people into voting remain has backfired spectacularly and only ensured a high turnout for the leave vote right across Britain. Nobody predicted it, but the signs were all there; it's just that nobody in the political classes was listening, especially not the faceless bureaucrats in Brussels.

We've put our traditions and our institutions first, which are the bedrock of any country, and we'll be better off in the long run for leaving such an inept and rotten bureaucracy. I hope other Euro-sceptic nations now follow our lead.


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## Schrody (Jun 24, 2016)

dither said:


> yes of course,the result stands and wheels will be set in motion. We shall see eh ?
> A lot can happen in seven years.



Of course.



PiP said:


> How am I am feeling? Numb.
> 
> Although, I am in shock, the result does not come as a surprise because Brits essentially have an island mentality. I listened to the arguments when we were back in the UK and they seemed to be levelled at the lack of control on immigration.
> 
> ...



Yeah, they said Cameron wouldn't stand a chance now, after the referendum... Things will surely stabilize, but until then... 



Ultraroel said:


> Yeha like in the Netherlands, 2 months ago.
> We had a referendum about a cooperation with Ukraine. Majority was against, still got put through..
> I hope your politicians are more reliable than ours.



Ha! No, I wouldn't put "reliable" and "Croatian politicians" in the same sentence. Before our referendum about entering the EU or not (and that was years after we started to negotiate for the membership!) they lowered the quota for turnout, meaning less people needed to vote in order for referendum to pass. Of course, those who wanted EU won, even though the weren't a majority. So yeah, we were deceived, entering the Union, just so our politicians could take a better paying job in the EU Parliament. That's Croatia for you!


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## PiP (Jun 24, 2016)

I just don't know, Patrick. The immovable force met the immovable object. 

There are too many poor countries, such as Portugal, in the EU that seem to qualify for handouts for all sorts of things, some of which beggar belief


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## Patrick (Jun 24, 2016)

Brussels should be made to listen to Jerusalem on loop.


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## Phil Istine (Jun 24, 2016)

My life has been a serious financial challenge for some years.  I had the misfortune to fall in love with someone whose spending outstripped my income then, after I left her, I needed lengthy medical treatment which made it very difficult to work for some time.  The result: massive debts.  Slowly I've been unpicking it down the years; the very low interest (mortgage) rates have been a help but I needed them around for maybe two or three more years.
The exchange rate is falling through the floor.  The usual blunt instrument to try resolving this is hiking interest rates.  Worst case scenario is that I'll be homeless by Christmas.  OK, I don't suppose I'd sleep rough - too old to revert to that. Defaulting on debts and finding a room to rent would possibly be a way to go.  You see, it's not just about my probable higher mortgage rate - it's about my customers' too.  If they are faced with higher mortgage charges, paying someone to wash their windows is an expense they won't want.
Ultimately, I may have to default on some of the non-mortgage debt, make arrangements through a debt plan, and hope they don't come after the equity in my flat.
It's funny, but no immigrant has ever made me homeless, but some people's view of immigrants could.

So Britain's net contribution is (was) about £8 billion a year.
£250 billion has, according to the governor of the Bank of England, been set aside to shore up the markets/currency etc.
I make that around 30 years worth of contributions.

I've decided that there's sod-all I can do about whatever is to happen in the wider economy.  I just need to be a bit selfish and look after my little corner - get more customers as some will cancel, price my work as high as I dare, and not spend a single penny on anything even borderline non-essential.  If we are heading for another hard recession, I'll do my bit to add to it.


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## Sam (Jun 24, 2016)

For the past month, David Cameron has engaged in a protracted scaremongering campaign that, as Patrick said, spectacularly backfired in the end. After the first few discussions and debates, it was obvious that no concrete statistics existed to prove that the UK would be worse off leaving the EU. Cameron thus resorted to cheap fearmongering tactics designed to scare the public into voting to stay. Being a pathological liar by profession, I saw through the BS because when a politician leads with an appeal to fear and a no true Scotsman proposition, their entire argument is already on shaky ground. 

Instead of concentrating on the benefits of _staying _in the EU, Cameron focused instead on the repercussions of _leaving, _which tells me there can't have been that many of the former.


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## Phil Istine (Jun 24, 2016)

Sam said:


> Instead of concentrating on the benefits of _staying _in the EU, Cameron focused instead on the repercussions of _leaving, _which tells me there can't have been that many of the former.



I've said similar myself Patrick.  People attached those prophecies of doom to Cameron and shot the messenger - who has now fallen on his sword.  Even getting rid of Cameron feels hollow, because he'll probably be replaced by Bozo the Clown.
Financial markets have a habit of overreacting, then stabilising eventually.
Of course, it doesn't end there; Scotland will be next up for another bash at splitting from the rest of the UK.


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## PiP (Jun 24, 2016)

Phil, I am right there with you.

My daughter, who lives in France, will probably go out of business. She has been a mortgage broker for 15 years sourcing mortgages with French banks for the Brit market of eager beavers wanting to buy property in France. She currently employs two people... All have mortgages. One of my sons works for a Canadian company whose European HQ is in England. Who knows what will happen.

Did people truly vote with their hearts or their heads?

At the moment it seems as if we are looking into a black hole of despondency.


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## Sam (Jun 24, 2016)

PiP said:


> Phil, I am right there with you.
> 
> My daughter, who lives in France, will probably go out of business. She has been a mortgage broker for 15 years sourcing mortgages with French banks for the Brit market of eager beavers wanting to buy property in France. She currently employs two people... All have mortgages. One of my sons works for a Canadian company whose European HQ is in England. Who knows what will happen.
> 
> ...



And that's a terrible uncertainty to hang over anyone's head, PiP, but that's an argument appealing to emotion. Yes, people will be affected by this, some in irreparable ways, and it is horrible, but I don't like being emotionally blackmailed by the representatives that I have elected -- which is what Cameron did and tried to do. And the reason why he did it is because historically scaremongering has worked. 

Except that this time it didn't -- and that's partly the reason why no one saw it coming.


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## Phil Istine (Jun 24, 2016)

PiP said:


> Phil, I am right there with you.
> 
> My daughter, who lives in France, will probably go out of business. She has been a mortgage broker for 15 years sourcing mortgages with French banks for the Brit market of eager beavers wanting to buy property in France. She currently employs two people... All have mortgages. One of my sons works for a Canadian company whose European HQ is in England. Who knows what will happen.
> 
> ...



That sounds pretty dire because if the exchange rates stay like that for a while, it will be harder to afford property abroad - that's if they'll even be allowed to buy it to live in, in a year or two.

It's a funny thing but my early adult life was a total disaster.  In a weird way it gives me the tools to face things - because even my personal worse case scenario wouldn't be as bad as back then.

I use a work unit that is in the same complex as a much larger window cleaning company that employs people (I'm a sole trader).  I was chatting with one of their employees yesterday morning.  He was talking about voting leave as if it were the only option (he dislikes non-indigenous people).  So I said to him that his boss's customers might start cancelling if/when rates go up to support the currency - which might cost him his job (he's the last in).  He looked at me as if I was from another planet.
I know where he's coming from.  When I was younger and an employee, my peripheral vision of the wider world was very hampered.


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## Phil Istine (Jun 24, 2016)

Sam said:


> And that's a terrible uncertainty to hang over anyone's head, PiP, but that's an argument appealing to emotion. Yes, people will be affected by this, some in irreparable ways, and it is horrible, but I don't like being emotionally blackmailed by the representatives that I have elected -- which is what Cameron did and tried to do. And the reason why he did it is because historically scaremongering has worked.
> 
> Except that this time it didn't -- and that's partly the reason why no one saw it coming.



I wouldn't say that no-one saw it coming, Sam.  I believed it was a very real possibility months ago, even when remain had a healthy lead in the polls.  Mind you, I live in a working class, high immigration area, so I probably hear more resentment about it than most.  Indeed, the leave vote was 58% around where I live - not the highest, but certainly not marginal.


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## PiP (Jun 24, 2016)

The highest % of people who chose to leave will not have to live with the decision.


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## Ultraroel (Jun 24, 2016)

Like all things in politics


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## Aquilo (Jun 24, 2016)

It's a shock, I've got to admit. Gut instinct went with staying in. I'm a labour voter, and I pretty much loathe anything to do with Cameron, but this was a vote for future generations: it's going to impact them more down the line. I went with how cutting ties could affect them. And because no one has left the EU before and can only give their best guess at what will happen, I went with trusting my gut instinct. I can't see the sense in taking a step backwards and cutting ties. It's not going to make the issue with immigration or terrorism go away; we didn't make it go away before we joined the EU. What we save in paying to stay in the EU we could easily lose through non-EU sanctions and manufacturing that might pull away from the UK. Holidays abroad will go up, purely because we don't have the EU cover that (although that's just a minor concern). 

It just seems a step back into the dark ages for me. And as much as I dislike Cameron, I dislike him more for resigning and jumping ship now. I do think he'd be a strong PM to take us through this, because, Christ, Labour just don't have that presence. I bet Boris will succeed Cameron, but.. but.. *sighs*

Everything just feels so flat this morning. I hope to God I can come back to this thread in fifteen years and have a chuckle at my reaction.


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## Ultraroel (Jun 24, 2016)

" It just seems a step back into the dark ages for me. "

Depends how you see that. in my opinion, a centrally controlled and governed EU with the ability to control, sanction, make laws without real supervision is the fastest way to a new Dark age.
Combine that kind of governing with our technological possibilities and we have a very scary prospect. Dutch people never wanted the EU, but still our government is rushing towards the EU.
I don't think that a universal EU approach will be able to tackle terrorism anwyay..

I'd rather have a hard way ahead, than a easy way ahead where we give away all our freedom.


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## ppsage (Jun 24, 2016)

The ballots aren't even cold yet and they've played a three-month can-kick on invoking the two-year rule. A long negotiation and the only real change will be the tycoons have drank the cream of the market at 65 cents on the dollar. Or whatever that is in pounds and pence. Which isn't a change at all.


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## Aquilo (Jun 24, 2016)

Ultraroel said:


> Depends how you see that. in my opinion, a centrally controlled and governed EU with the ability to control, sanction, make laws without real supervision is the fastest way to a new Dark age.



The same can be said for any one government who has absolute control. I'd like to see UK history without part EU control compared to UK history with EU part control.   Which has seen more growth, fairness, and prosperity?


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## Schrody (Jun 24, 2016)

Phil Istine said:


> The exchange rate is falling through the floor.  The usual blunt instrument to try resolving this is hiking interest rates.  Worst case scenario is that I'll be homeless by Christmas.  OK, I don't suppose I'd sleep rough - too old to revert to that.



Oh geez, I didn't know it's so serious  Hope you'll make it all right.



Sam said:


> Instead of concentrating on the benefits of _staying _in the EU, Cameron focused instead on the repercussions of _leaving, _which tells me there can't have been that many of the former.



Typical. Our politicians did the same, only that time it was: "If you don't vote for EU, you won't get your pensions!" Hilarious. It's seems that scare tactics are the last resort of lazy politicians.


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## Aquilo (Jun 24, 2016)

Schrody said:


> It's seems that scare tactics are the last resort of lazy politicians.



Welcome to Cameron's signature mark as a PM. I remember his attack on disabled people, how he focused on the odd 3-4 people who scammed the Government out of money, compared to the thousands who have genuine disability claims. Because of what he did to all disabled people across the board, cancer patients went without medication for weeks on end whilst they were dragged through paperwork changes. My husband's disabled and he went without medication for weeks as we were dragged through it. So I'm not keen on any one government not being held accountable to outside sources.


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## Ultraroel (Jun 24, 2016)

Aquilo said:


> The same can be said for any one government who has absolute control. I'd like to see UK history without part EU control compared to UK history with EU part control.   Which has seen more growth, fairness, and prosperity?



Well, can't really compare it correctly as technological advancement has changed the economical environment in such a way that this would never be fair. 

Also. That's what I meant. We are moving rapidly towards absolute power and control from the EU, as it has the ability to control and sanction, withhout any supervision. 
It's really scary. it's exactly what is happening in Bulgaria on a small scale. Small governmental institutions with untouchable executives that only try to fill their own pockets..
If we do not rise against this uncontrolled, festering and self-righteous creature called the EU, we will all be under such a government sooner rather than later.


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## Phil Istine (Jun 24, 2016)

I know I've focussed on the financial aspects, but I take the view that the EU was beneficial for the UK on the political front too.
In the UK, we have a first-past-the-post voting system.  What it ends up meaning is that if one party wins more voting areas (constituencies) than all the other parties put together, it can pretty much do as it wishes. This has led to majority governments that have been backed by a minority of the electorate (albeit the largest minority). This has led to far greater abuses of power than anything I've witnessed for Brussels (IMO of course).  For me, intervention from the EU was actually a positive element as it took the edge off some of those abuses.  It's a funny thing, but one of the causes of people voting to leave was one of the reasons I voted to remain.
Although the EU was very limited in this regard, it was all we had - except for waiting a few years and voting in another government who would abuse in a different way.  Sometimes governments need the support of another smaller party to push laws through, but it doesn't happen very often (the government prior to the current one was formed that way).
There will be a case for PR (proportional representation) at some point, especially when Scotland cedes from the Union, in order to (hopefully) avoid political extremities.

As an aside, please no-one plonk their foot in and get this thread closed.  It's been a civil discussion of differing views, without a debate in sight


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## Aquilo (Jun 24, 2016)

I feel sorry for Scotland. Part of their referendum vote to not go independent from the UK was based on scare tactics from Westminster on how leaving the UK would cut Scotland from the EU too. Now that stands to happen any way because they're not independent from the UK. I wonder if they'll take a new referendum to cut the ties with UK and strengthen their place in the EU?


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## Deleted member 56686 (Jun 24, 2016)

Maybe the Britons here can agree with this thought or not, but Patrick makes a good point of Britain's similarity with the 'can-do' attitude with the United States. I don't know what is really going on in Europe but I do know that Americans don't like being told what to do, especially by other nations. While I wouldn't expect the EU to kowtow to every demand by Britain, which had to have been the strongest nation of the Union, they shouldn't have expected Britain to kowtow to them either. My gut says Britain and the EU need each other; maybe the EU needs Britain just a little more.

I guess my real question is how will it affect diplomatic relations between Britain and other European countries. And if we Americans really are stupid enough to elect Trump, what happens then? Maybe it's me, but with the EU situation and the Russian misadventures, we're starting to parallel the history that led to the First World War.

Than again, maybe I'm overreacting.


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## Schrody (Jun 24, 2016)

Aquilo said:


> Welcome to Cameron's signature mark as a PM. I remember his attack on disabled people, how he focused on the odd 3-4 people who scammed the Government out of money, compared to the thousands who have genuine disability claims. Because of what he did to all disabled people across the board, cancer patients went without medication for weeks on end whilst they were dragged through paperwork changes. My husband's disabled and he went without medication for weeks as we were dragged through it. So I'm not keen on any one government not being held accountable to outside sources.



Ugh. Similar things are known to happen here too. And it's not just a characteristic of right or left wing - both parties are destroying the country.


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## Ultraroel (Jun 24, 2016)

The russian misadventures are not really that bad in my opinion, but that's another story. 
I've realized how hard the Anti-putin machine is running here in Europe. 
I bet it's the same in the US. Putin is a man that wants to bring Russia back to the glorydays.. 
And the more I see how he does it, the more sympathy I grow for him. 
Unlike my feelings for my own Country that fumbles around, the EU and the American hypocrisy.

On governments: Here in Bulgaria, half of the money send to the country is stolen by politicians. The political system is corrupted and the country existst for 30% of a roma population.
They will sell their votes for 2 sandwiches. 
The other half of the people is too scared to lose their jobs and will vote what their boss tells them to vote. Which means the same people are in charge, who should not be. 
3 years ago thousands of people went on the streets to protest against the corrupt government. 10 months later, the reelections were won by the same people. 

Compared to that. your government officials seem angels.

Ontopic: 

Iam very curious to see what happens, how it will happen and what it will entail.
I do feel that a lot of the people I know that left for the UK are likely to return, unless the visa and permit regulations are being taken care of very carefully.


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## Phil Istine (Jun 24, 2016)

Aquilo said:


> I feel sorry for Scotland. Part of their referendum vote to not go independent from the UK was based on scare tactics from Westminster on how leaving the UK would cut Scotland from the EU too. Now that stands to happen any way because they're not independent from the UK. I wonder if they'll take a new referendum to cut the ties with UK and strengthen their place in the EU?



I believe that is highly likely, though they may have to agree to trade in Euros, even though much of their trade is with England.
It may be worth bearing in mind that Scotland became attached to England 300 years ago due to high debt levels rather than warfare.


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## Schrody (Jun 24, 2016)

Ultraroel said:


> On governments: Here in Bulgaria, half of the money send to the country is stolen by politicians. The political system is corrupted and the country existst for 30% of a roma population.
> They will sell their votes for 2 sandwiches.



You may have bought votes, but here, even the dead ones vote!


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## Ultraroel (Jun 24, 2016)

Schrody said:


> You may have bought votes, but here, even the dead ones vote!



Here probably too! Oooow the Balkans <3


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## bdcharles (Jun 24, 2016)

Ultraroel said:


> " It just seems a step back into the dark ages for me. "
> 
> Depends how you see that. in my opinion, a centrally controlled and governed EU with the ability to control, sanction, make laws without real supervision is the fastest way to a new Dark age.
> Combine that kind of governing with our technological possibilities and we have a very scary prospect. Dutch people never wanted the EU, but still our government is rushing towards the EU.
> ...



The one thing I agreed with Cameron on was his stance on European reform; he was willing to push for what Britain needed from the EU while remaining a member, which would lessen the impact of a centrally governed EU. Of course this was roundly pooh-poohed but a simple pooh-poohing need not stop anyone.

The worry around UK independence is that the Leave campaign tended to get rather steeped in this sort of ugly xenophobia, which is a shame because although I voted remain I don't think every reason for leaving the EU is a bad one; but it threatens to set the tone for - well, the country as a whole.

In my view what the remain camp needs to do now is be a little bit smarter than just standing about wringing our hands for the next X years and saying how terrible it all is. We need to engage; to be in it to win it, and make UK independence work for us the way we want it to, rather than let it slide through inactivity. We don't want to be having these same conversations ten years down the line as we are now. That is often the risk: electorate inertia.


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## afk4life (Jun 24, 2016)

Well, I was going to say that, you guys are now stuck on an island with UKIP. That doesn't sound like very much fun. And it's extremely likely we get Trump. Things are not headed in a good direction at all...


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## Schrody (Jun 24, 2016)

Ultraroel said:


> Here probably too! Oooow the Balkans <3



You gotta love it.


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## Aquilo (Jun 24, 2016)

afk4life said:


> And it's extremely likely we get Trump. Things are not headed in a good direction at all...



Hey, we might get Boris!  




Boris ^


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## Phil Istine (Jun 24, 2016)

Aquilo said:


> Hey, we might get Boris!
> 
> View attachment 14597
> 
> Boris ^



I'd rather have Boris Karloff - complete with bolts to hold his head on.


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## Patrick (Jun 24, 2016)

The problem is, guys, the remain side of this debate didn't appreciate what was happening around the country. The chattering classes in London had no idea, and show no signs of learning even now, what it is that people in provincial England are actually concerned about. Entire communities are being irreversibly changed by immigration and the working class is suffering the most from unemployment, a struggle to get school places for their children, the strain on the NHS and benefits. Make no mistake, when the remain side talks of xenophobia, it is a direct insult to the British white working class. The people who voted in large numbers to leave are the white working class. They have been betrayed by Labour, and so they no longer have a voice in parliament that stands up for and represents them. 

Do you realise how much anger this is causing? It is not because the white working class are racist; it's because they've been ignored, and they've had enough of the negative changes they see as a result of uncontrolled migration. They don't want it any more. And you can't blame them. London, as the home of the establishment, is now completely adrift from the rest of England, and the only way that will change is if the left comes down from all its highfalutin and stops sneering at the people it's supposed to care about. The big problem here is not that England has retreated into some kind of parochial-mindedness, but that London, not only the capital of the country but also of the failed experiment of multiculturalism, has retreated into its ivory towers and has stopped trying to understand the rest of the country. Instead it labels us bigots for even addressing the problem of freedom of movement in a Europe where wealth and job opportunities are so disproportionate across the member states.


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## escorial (Jun 24, 2016)

all good things come to an end and basically it was a retirement home for has beens in British politics and a very nice jolly at that being a MEP..for me the real vote was about the working poor and their feelings towards cut's and the low wages helped by immigration..waiting lists for houses,doctors and the middle class could only see a bright future with new hospitals ,schools ..ect to be built in the future and the jobs which are filled by university educated people it was all looking splendid...but average joe can't think long term because food is needed and debts have to be paid..you know the bankers collapse type and I for one think where going to get shafted by the political class but you know what revolutions do happen...

[video=youtube_share;4lKwXwU5iWs]https://youtu.be/4lKwXwU5iWs[/video]


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## Patrick (Jun 24, 2016)

escorial said:


> all good things come to an end and basically it was a retirement home for has beens in British politics and a very nice jolly at that being a MEP..for me the real vote was about the working poor and their feelings towards cut's and the low wages helped by immigration..waiting lists for houses,doctors and the middle class could only see a bright future with new hospitals ,schools ..ect to be built in the future and the jobs which are filled by university educated people it was all looking splendid...but average joe can't think long term because food is needed and debts have to be paid..you know the bankers collapse type and I for one think where going to get shafted by the political class but you know what revolutions do happen...
> 
> [video=youtube_share;4lKwXwU5iWs]https://youtu.be/4lKwXwU5iWs[/video]



Spot on. If only the political classes had the wisdom of the common man.


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## escorial (Jun 24, 2016)

Patrick said:


> Spot on. If only the political classes had the wisdom of the common man.




the north south divide....Ireland,Scotland......the power house of the north might be a tiger they never expected...


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## Patrick (Jun 24, 2016)

escorial said:


> the north south divide....Ireland,Scotland......the power house of the north might be a tiger they never expected...



You know, it's not so much a north, south divide any more. The southwest and the majority of the southeast all feel as disaffected as the north. London stands alone and adrift from us all, my friend. On social media, I've seen tweets by people in the London-centric publishing industry mocking Cornwall for voting leave when it receives EU funding (of course a percentage back of what we send to the European Union in the first place). My family name is as Cornish as it gets, and my grandfather was a Cornishman. These people don't understand that places like Cornwall have a siege mentality precisely because of the state of English politics and the discrepancy between London and everywhere else, particularly the disaffected rural areas of the country.

The way these people behave is shockingly ignorant and an embarrassment. I seriously don't think I could rub shoulders in the London-centric publishing industry because of how ignorant it is. It really upsets me.


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## escorial (Jun 24, 2016)

I get the feeling London could go it alone and let the boom times roll..lets build ourselves a couple of hundred million art gallery and screw cut's..art matters stuff....the home counties and shires thought the immigrants would stay put in the cities but instead they found opportunities here there and everywhere....and it wasn't until the middle classes seen them walking down their street did they let go of what a wonderfull multicultural country we are....people are not hungry in the street but in the houses and the list is endless...were I live


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## bdcharles (Jun 24, 2016)

Patrick said:


> The problem is, guys, the remain side of this debate didn't appreciate what was happening around the country. The chattering classes in London had no idea, and show no signs of learning even now, what it is that people in provincial England are actually concerned about. Entire communities are being irreversibly changed by immigration and the working class is suffering the most from unemployment, a struggle to get school places for their children, the strain on the NHS and benefits. Make no mistake, when the remain side talks of xenophobia, it is a direct insult to the British white working class. The people who voted in large numbers to leave are the white working class. They have been betrayed by Labour, and so they no longer have a voice in parliament that stands up for and represents them.
> 
> Do you realise how much anger this is causing? It is not because the white working class are racist; it's because they've been ignored, and they've had enough of the negative changes they see as a result of uncontrolled migration. They don't want it any more. And you can't blame them. London, as the home of the establishment, is now completely adrift from the rest of England, and the only way that will change is if the left comes down from all its highfalutin and stops sneering at the people it's supposed to care about. The big problem here is not that England has retreated into some kind of parochial-mindedness, but that London, not only the capital of the country but also of the failed experiment of multiculturalism, has retreated into its ivory towers and has stopped trying to understand the rest of the country. Instead it labels us bigots for even addressing the problem of freedom of movement in a Europe where wealth and job opportunities are so disproportionate across the member states.



I and others know that immigration, among other things, was/is a major issue, and I am aware that more affluent people, middle class and what have you, kind of gloss over it. The wider problem is that the whole debate has become toxic to the point where you can't even raise the topic without being branded a racist, or sneering and ignorant, or have some mud slung. That means that when people vote on it, they think they are voting against the racist element, or the element that seems blithely unaware of any issues. The electorate in this country is completely divided. We basically hate each other (we don't, really; but we carry on as though we did!) and the powers that be - big media, politicians - have us right where they want us, and will continue to mess about with our lives over what amounts to pretty much a vanity project for as long as we remain disengaged from the political process - and we are very, very disengaged. Yes, we vote - but we have been so manipulated that we don't even really know what we want any more. We only know what we have been instructed to want, and can only see the side of things that pertains directly to us. That clarity, that ability to discuss and figure out the problem _dispassionately _on our own terms without resorting to hate, mud slinging, scare mongering, and so on, is what we lack, and it is extremely profitable for us to lack it.

So now that the UK will be independent we need to make good on our promises to ourselves, to be great, to do a good job, otherwise we will end up looking like the f**kwits of the world. It's completely within our power to do so. We just have to want it badly enough, to care sufficiently. Can you imagine if the most extreme right winger and the most extreme left winger and the biggest racist and the most unwelcome immigrant were able to have a sensible discussion? That's what tolerance looks like and that's what we should be aiming for if we want to keep any sort of stake in our future out of the hands of politicians, multinationals and so forth.


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## am_hammy (Jun 24, 2016)

Okay so, I don't really pay much attention to politics around the world, let alone the ones in my own country in America, (which, yes I know shame on me but my head and heart can only stand so much). I tend to stay away from it and pretend like none of it will effect me even though what's happening in my country is something I need to be concerned about, which I am. Anyway, that being said I knew that there were votes happening over in the UK I just didn't know what for exactly. So what I would like to know, what does this mean as a whole? (forgive my ignorance on this subject) I managed to read up that the pound dropped significantly, more than it has in years, and the other stock markets went a little loopy as well. After reading everyone's comments I'm gathering that being part of the EU has created a sense of unity among the European country in terms of travel, immigration laws, jobs, and financial situations, to be basic about it as I'm sure there is much more than what I'm listing off.

I also read up that this whole process will take time, so it's something everyone will see in full detail later on down the road, yes? Does this mean that there will be a different system of government? And it's England as a whole that has chosen to leave right? I guess I'm just trying to grasp the impact of it all. I know it's serious and life changing, I'm just wondering what else it's bringing about. I know everyone here has mentioned jobs, money, immigration, and travel, but I feel like I'm missing the full answer as to what it means for you guys to be leaving the EU, hah.


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## Ultraroel (Jun 24, 2016)

" The wider problem is that the whole debate has become toxic to the point where you can't even raise the topic without being branded a racist, or sneering and ignorant, or have some mud slung." 

Yes. Intolerance disguised as tolerance. It's incredibly sad, but I also notice this attitude here on the forum too. And it's a thing in our cultures nowadays.
You have to accept everything thrown your way and otherwise you are racist or any other name we came up to call people when they have a different point of view. 

It's just so funny for me how After 1988 Communism has become the worst thing ever and Democracy a holy concept.
Now, almost 30 years later we  can say that both failed badly, but that people are so brainwashed into democracy and capitalism that we cannot even consider the idea of finding another way to govern our countries.
In addition with mass entertainment, internet and decreasing social structure, this is a problem..In addition with technological advancement, this is quite scary. We are being led to "just accept and shut up."

Politicians are disconnected from the mass and are happy like that. Feed the mass an EU Football tournament and they will shut up for another 6 months.


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## afk4life (Jun 24, 2016)

@am_hammy It's 9:22 EST and in about eight minutes you will probably see a massive crash on all our stock exchanges. Britain has voted to leave the European Union, which is an economic, social, and military pact standing since 1993. I'm not going to debate reasons. Some likely outcomes are Scotland leaving the UK to join the EU, Senn Fein (IRA) is already hinting this is their chance to make Ireland one country again, so, the end of the United Kingdom. I don't know how strong the Welsh nationalists are. England, however, is not terribly self-sufficient as a country, so that's going to probably cause problems. Their Prime Minister has resigned (why didn't Cameron years ago??) and no one knows what's next. Oh, and a major force behind all of this was UK Independence Party which is about as close to neo-nazi as a mainstream party can get...


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## Aquilo (Jun 24, 2016)

Patrick said:


> The problem is, guys, the remain side of this  debate didn't appreciate what was happening around the country. The  chattering classes in London had no idea, and show no signs of learning  even now, what it is that people in provincial England are actually  concerned about. Entire communities are being irreversibly changed by  immigration and the working class is suffering the most from  unemployment, a struggle to get school places for their children, the  strain on the NHS and benefits. Make no mistake, when the remain side  talks of xenophobia, it is a direct insult to the British white working  class. The people who voted in large numbers to leave are the white  working class. They have been betrayed by Labour, and so they no longer  have a voice in parliament that stands up for and represents them.
> 
> Do you realise how much anger this is causing? It is not because the  white working class are racist; it's because they've been ignored, and  they've had enough of the negative changes they see as a result of  uncontrolled migration. They don't want it any more. And you can't blame  them. London, as the home of the establishment, is now completely  adrift from the rest of England, and the only way that will change is if  the left comes down from all its highfalutin and stops sneering at the  people it's supposed to care about. The big problem here is not that  England has retreated into some kind of parochial-mindedness, but that  London, not only the capital of the country but also of the failed  experiment of multiculturalism, has retreated into its ivory towers and  has stopped trying to understand the rest of the country. Instead it  labels us bigots for even addressing the problem of freedom of movement  in a Europe where wealth and job opportunities are so disproportionate  across the member states.




Maybe it's because we're in different areas, but that seems an almost romanticized view the working class fight in my humbles. They've picked up a few sneers of their own here lately. My  son came home from school having had his teacher say "Do you think it's  fair disabled people get to live in homes better than you because  they're disabled?" That attitude was being bred into kids at school. Whatever  solidarity there used to be from the working class (and I come from  mining village and remember the strikes) has been given some very ugly layers. Where was the anger over cuts to the NHS, to the  military, to the police force? Why vote Cameron in for a second term if  anger is that high? Mostly for some of the working class because the hardcore of his reform hit other  people's pocket more. That anger comes in with immigration because it hits working class tax payments and it impacts on how they live: and it would be something to really stand up and fight for but... that darker  side that I've seen came into play long before that from those same people and their  sneering at supporting their own disabled community. And boy did Cameron love dividing classes with that. 

I just wish this whole vote had been handled better, with  both sides avoiding scare tactics and anger, because both sides have shown a selfish and 'I'm an island, don't care about anyone else' state, enough that I'm wary of motives in general.


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## PiP (Jun 24, 2016)

My daughter and staff are crying - they know their business is finished in France. They will be one of the 1000's if not millions of losers by this vote.. Lives will be turned upside-down and for what?  The exit will hit every one including those receiving private pensions. 

Perhaps other countries will follow Britain's example and vote 'out' so the house of cards will come tumbling down.


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## Patrick (Jun 24, 2016)

Aquilo said:


> Maybe it's because we're in different areas, but that seems an almost romanticized view the working class fight in my humbles. They've picked up a few sneers of their own here lately. My  son came home from school having had his teacher say "Do you think it's  fair disabled people get to live in homes better than you because  they're disabled?" That attitude was being bred into kids at school. Whatever  solidarity there used to be from the working class (and I come from  mining village and remember the strikes) has been given some very ugly layers. Where was the anger over cuts to the NHS, to the  military, to the police force? Why vote Cameron in for a second term if  anger is that high? Mostly for some of the working class because the hardcore of his reform hit other  people's pocket more. That anger comes in with immigration because it hits working class tax payments and it impacts on how they live: and it would be something to really stand up and fight for but... that darker  side that I've seen came into play long before that from those same people and their  sneering at supporting their own disabled community. And boy did Cameron love dividing classes with that.
> 
> I just wish this whole vote had been handled better, with  both sides avoiding scare tactics and anger, because both sides have shown a selfish and 'I'm an island, don't care about anyone else' state, enough that I'm wary of motives in general.



It's not an exaggeration; it is exactly how people feel up and down the country. Certainly, the working class isn't perfect, but they don't have to be perfect to be deserving of so much better. 

As for Cameron, he won the last election because he promised a referendum on the European Union and because the working class is turning away from Labour either by not voting or by voting UKIP. I voted Conservative solely because he said we'd have a referendum, but I'll never vote again for the sort of Conservative government we've had. I have more in common with Gisela than I do with Cameron. And do you know what, I think an alliance of social conservatives across the labour and conservative parties could win an election. The current labour and conservative parties don't represent the vast majority of their voters, and they only get elected on the cult of personality and because of old tribal divides.



PiP said:


> My daughter and staff are crying - they know their business is finished in France. They will be one of the 1000's if not millions of losers by this vote.. Lives will be turned upside-down and for what? The exit will hit every one including those receiving private pensions.
> 
> Perhaps other countries will follow Britain's example and vote 'out' so the house of cards will come tumbling down.



 I am sorry for your daughter and her business, Carole, and perhaps it doesn't help to hear it, but I can tell you we did it for our sovereignty and democracy. A short-term selfish vote would have been to vote remain, but I love my country's founding Christian principles, traditions, and institutions, and I will always fight for the best interests of the country God gave me, and I do sincerely believe it to be in this country's best interests to leave the EU. That's why I voted to leave, and that's why I'd do it again.


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## PiP (Jun 24, 2016)

Patrick, I understand well the sovereignty argument but Britain has gone way beyond Christian principles and our traditions and institutions have been eroded as we are now a multicultural/creed society. I hope and pray that the 'Leave' voters do not look back on this day in 5 years/10 years time and regret their decision. There will be winners and losers  although right now emotions are too raw to comprehend/contemplate the long term effects.


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## Ultraroel (Jun 24, 2016)

Now! For all the countries to introduce a ban on religious political parties. 
This is maybe more necessary than anything else!


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## Patrick (Jun 24, 2016)

PiP said:


> Patrick, I understand well the sovereignty argument but Britain has gone way beyond Christian principles and our traditions and institutions have been eroded as we are now a multicultural/creed society. I hope and pray that the 'Leave' voters do not look back on this day in 5 years/10 years time and regret their decision. There will be winners and losers  although right now emotions are too raw to comprehend/contemplate the long term effects.



The left's pet project has failed, in my opinion. This country's history cannot be swept aside by a few decades of multiculturalism. Our own culture still means a great deal to many of us.



Ultraroel said:


> Now! For all the countries to introduce a ban on religious political parties.
> This is maybe more necessary than anything else!



That's intolerant.


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## Gyarachu (Jun 24, 2016)

Patrick said:


> The left's pet project has failed, in my opinion. This country's history cannot be swept aside by a few decades of multiculturalism. Our own culture still means a great deal to many of us.



Culture is always changing. Ten, twenty, three-hundred years from now, your culture will have changed, likely drastically, even if it is dictated solely by white people from your specific locale. Why, then, is it so revolting to you that people originating elsewhere be a part of that change? Unless I misunderstand you completely, which I may.


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## Ultraroel (Jun 24, 2016)

Nope. It's necessity if you want to keep your country in Christian values. 
I've been pledging for this for years, and your response is the standard. 
But with the numbers of muslims coming in, a islamic political party is a serious consideration. 
In addition, the consideration that this group of people will become a majority is a serious issue.

In fact, i'm against any kind of religion, but I do not wish to see a democratic implementation of Islamic laws.
If I have to choose between two bads, I'd go for the christian religion. 

If this is to be prevented, it has to happen before these parties become big. 
Call me intolerant if you want... I call it realistic.


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## Phil Istine (Jun 24, 2016)

Patrick said:


> The problem is, guys, the remain side of this debate didn't appreciate what was happening around the country. The chattering classes in London had no idea, and show no signs of learning even now, what it is that people in provincial England are actually concerned about. Entire communities are being irreversibly changed by immigration and the working class is suffering the most from unemployment, a struggle to get school places for their children, the strain on the NHS and benefits. Make no mistake, when the remain side talks of xenophobia, it is a direct insult to the British white working class. The people who voted in large numbers to leave are the white working class. They have been betrayed by Labour, and so they no longer have a voice in parliament that stands up for and represents them.
> 
> Do you realise how much anger this is causing? It is not because the white working class are racist; it's because they've been ignored, and they've had enough of the negative changes they see as a result of uncontrolled migration. They don't want it any more. And you can't blame them. London, as the home of the establishment, is now completely adrift from the rest of England, and the only way that will change is if the left comes down from all its highfalutin and stops sneering at the people it's supposed to care about. The big problem here is not that England has retreated into some kind of parochial-mindedness, but that London, not only the capital of the country but also of the failed experiment of multiculturalism, has retreated into its ivory towers and has stopped trying to understand the rest of the country. Instead it labels us bigots for even addressing the problem of freedom of movement in a Europe where wealth and job opportunities are so disproportionate across the member states.



I agree that many aren't aware of the level of disaffection away from London.  Although I'm in the south-east, I'm some way away from London myself.  The town in which I live is like a little London as it was built to take some of the overspill after WW2.  It has a high level of immigrants, and that was reflected in the voting pattern.  58% voted leave in this area.
My sister lives in the north-east - County Durham.  It had an even higher leave vote, but immigration levels are far lower there.
If London could be moved north and become the capital of Scotland, it might just work


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## Kevin (Jun 24, 2016)

Over here it's being portrayed as a racist thing, like it would be okay to give away all your jobs to "white" poor, willing-to-accept, or forced-to-accept, essentially-causing lesser wages, immigrant workers. Same deal over here: if you're not for substandard wages you're a racist, or a communist (anti-capitalist). The global leveling does not 'bring everyone up'.


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## Patrick (Jun 24, 2016)

Gyarachu said:


> Culture is always changing. Ten, twenty, three-hundred years from now, your culture will have changed, likely drastically, even if it is dictated solely by a bunch of white people from your specific locale. Why, then, is it so revolting to you that people originating elsewhere be a part of that change? Unless I misunderstand you completely, which I may.



Because our culture is amazing, kind, tolerant, and glorious. It is because of those foundations that we've been so prosperous as a nation. What's amusing to me is that I mention Christian principles and people start responding as if that's somehow racist or xenophobic. No, this country's tolerance and compassion towards others stems from those Christian principles. People from other cultures are welcome, but this country's institutions, though they've been undermined, were founded on Christianity. Why do you think that culture should be replaced, and replaced with what? Nobody seems to be able to tell me.


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## Gyarachu (Jun 24, 2016)

Patrick said:


> Because our culture is amazing, kind, tolerant, and glorious. It is because of those foundations that we've been so prosperous as a nation. What's amusing to me is that I mention Christian principles and people start responding as if that's somehow racist or xenophobic. No, this country's tolerance and compassion towards others stems from those Christian principles. People from other cultures are welcome, but this country's institutions, though they've been undermined, were founded on Christianity. Why do you think that culture should be replaced, and replaced with what? Nobody seems to be able to tell me.



I never said your culture was in need of replacement. All I said was your culture will change over time, no matter what. Your culture, any culture, exactly as is, can only be preserved in history. My question is: given change, why must no one else be involved in that change?


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## Patrick (Jun 24, 2016)

Gyarachu said:


> I never said your culture was in need of replacement. All I said was your culture will change over time, no matter what. Your culture, any culture, exactly as is, can only be preserved in history. My question is: given change, why must no one else be involved in that change?



Your question makes no sense. Who's being excluded?


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## JustRob (Jun 24, 2016)

I suspect that many of us English, with the emphasis specifically on _English _rather than British, never considered ourselves to belong to the EU anyway, but we were never asked for our views on the matter, not so far as I can remember, which is a long time. Some of us simply voted not to be part of the EU regardless of whether others presumed that we were already. Technically we didn't vote to leave anything then, did we? What politicians, business men and financiers do is in many ways another world. What has become apparent during the referendum campaign is just how separate our many worlds here are.

I heard a report in the news a short while ago about the possibility of France also having a referendum on membership now. Maybe other countries are contemplating it as well. I think we have to be more concerned about the future of the EU itself. A community is sustained simply by being good neighbours, isn't it?


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## Aquilo (Jun 24, 2016)

I caught this too: about UK voters calling for a second referendum on a vote to stay in


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## Schrody (Jun 24, 2016)

Aquilo said:


> I caught this too: about UK voters calling for a second referendum on a vote to stay in



And if the results were "no" for that referendum? What would happen with the previous one?


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## afk4life (Jun 24, 2016)

That's what politicians always do, pit working and middle class people against each other based on race, religion, orientation, gender, etc., etc. so they always fight each other and ignore the fact that it's corporations making a lot of money off of it. Only this time I think that plan may have backfired badly. I'm a cis white gay guy and I worry about making rent, say my neighbor's a Christian or Muslim who's also worried about making rent, and I play my music a bit loud sometimes and he makes too much noise doing his prayers or whatever. We can complain to each other about making too much noise, that's really the only time we interact, but the fact is we both are worried about making enough to pay the rent which is why this whole thing is a huge distraction because that's the one thing me and my neighbor *should* be talking about and trying to make change in our government so it works for us. It's maddening, we came so close to that being in the spotlight this year and now we're back to square minus one. I don't care if someone's whatever they are, Christian, Muslim, gay, straight, trans, whatever, sure, I'd love to learn about your culture but we *all* are taking major hits because all our governments are run by corporations that are wrecking us. Everyone went to the polls in anger fueled by the closest thing to NSDAP to get this much prominence in eighty years and the consequences for England will likely be dire (I'm pretty much guessing NI and Scotland are exit within a year). That immigrant guy didn't steal your job, he was most likely willing to work for a ridiculously low wage and corporations love that. He's getting screwed at least as badly as you are, sure, he got the job and hopefully his kids can live off of biscuits. Just like here in the US the politicians blame immigrants for everything and it's in reality not their fault, it's corporations who want to pay nothing and make everything. I get it, in most of Europe muslims are not integrating, same here. But we're all just playing right into the game the governments and Daesh i.e. corporations want us to, we fight amongst ourselves, they make money. I would rather live in a world where if my neighbors need help I help them, where kids get the education they want even if their families are poor, where no kid or anyone has to worry about paying if they get sick. At some point in history government changed from being a thing to help people to being a thing that helped corporations and it's disgusting.


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## Aquilo (Jun 24, 2016)

I doubt there'll be second one now... maybe. Things are are crazy enough to just allow it to creep in.


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## Patrick (Jun 24, 2016)

Aquilo said:


> I caught this too: about UK voters calling for a second referendum on a vote to stay in



1.3 million votes was the difference after a very strong turn out of 72%. I appreciate it's hard to lose on such a massive issue, but remain need to behave with grace now and accept the verdict. Perhaps they should concentrate on extolling the virtues of our own British union that has existed for 300 years, rather than wishing it to break up in petty spite.


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## Phil Istine (Jun 24, 2016)

There won't be a second bite on this particular issue, but later there might possibly be one over what form it will take.
Mind you, Ireland had two goes at it


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## LeeC (Jun 24, 2016)

“_Success, like war and like charity in religion, covers a multitude of sins._”  ~  Sir Charles Napier


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## Patrick (Jun 24, 2016)

afk4life said:


> That's what politicians always do, pit working and middle class people against each other based on race, religion, orientation, gender, etc., etc. so they always fight each other and ignore the fact that it's corporations making a lot of money off of it. Only this time I think that plan may have backfired badly. I'm a cis white gay guy and I worry about making rent, say my neighbor's a Christian or Muslim who's also worried about making rent, and I play my music a bit loud sometimes and he makes too much noise doing his prayers or whatever. We can complain to each other about making too much noise, that's really the only time we interact, but the fact is we both are worried about making enough to pay the rent which is why this whole thing is a huge distraction because that's the one thing me and my neighbor *should* be talking about and trying to make change in our government so it works for us. It's maddening, we came so close to that being in the spotlight this year and now we're back to square minus one. I don't care if someone's whatever they are, Christian, Muslim, gay, straight, trans, whatever, sure, I'd love to learn about your culture but we *all* are taking major hits because all our governments are run by corporations that are wrecking us.* Everyone went to the polls in anger fueled by the closest thing to NSDAP to get this much prominence in eighty years and the consequences for England will likely be dire (I'm pretty much guessing NI and Scotland are exit within a year). That immigrant guy didn't steal your job, he was most likely willing to work for a ridiculously low wage and corporations love that. He's getting screwed at least as badly as you are, sure, he got the job and hopefully his kids can live off of biscuits.* Just like here in the US the politicians blame immigrants for everything and it's in reality not their fault, it's corporations who want to pay nothing and make everything. I get it, in most of Europe muslims are not integrating, same here. But we're all just playing right into the game the governments and Daesh i.e. corporations want us to, we fight amongst ourselves, they make money. I would rather live in a world where if my neighbors need help I help them, where kids get the education they want even if their families are poor, where no kid or anyone has to worry about paying if they get sick. At some point in history government changed from being a thing to help people to being a thing that helped corporations and it's disgusting.



It isn't as simple as that. Immigrants working on low wages are being paid many times more than what they'd make in their own country, so they don't feel exploited.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Jun 24, 2016)

To comment on afk's post, this whole 'everybody picks on me' because I'm white attitude is what might be getting us Donald Trump. Look, I'm sorry you hate the other guy because he's willing to work for less money, probably because he has to feed his kids with something, but is it really worth a world controlled by Donald Trump and Boris Johnson? We need to start respecting each other instead of scapegoating each other. That's the only way people not in the loop will be able to control their own destiny. Tearing each other apart only makes those in charge even more powerful, even if it doesn't appear that way on the surface.


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## PiP (Jun 24, 2016)

Patrick said:


> It isn't as simple as that. Immigrants working on low wages are being paid many times more than what they'd make in their own country, so they don't feel exploited.



Yes, and the COL of living in Britain is many times more.

In Portugal the cost of living is low but this is also reflected in the wages. There is much poverty here....

ETA right now, speaking as a member of WF,  those who are not directly affected can post their opinions but please don't turn this into a race or religious debate. I am personally very upset by the vote. Patrick and me may _respectfully _disagree but we are both British.


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## aj47 (Jun 24, 2016)

We have issues with immigrants getting paid for working here, too. Some are hired illegally.  That is just as much, if not more, on the employer than on the folks earning the pittance.


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## PiP (Jun 24, 2016)

What happens in the US of A has no bearing on life as part of Europe.


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## afk4life (Jun 24, 2016)

That was exactly my point. The immigrant guy feels lucky because he's payed dirt wages and it's still way more than he would make back in his country. But they are being exploited, I'm sorry, if you're freaking about rent or paying bills you're not making enough money. If your kids can't eat right because you have to figure out whether to pay for their shots or pay for fresh vegetables, you're not making enough money. I've been to London several times and it's an incredible town, way more diverse than New York, but it is not cheap. It's one of the cities I think everyone has to visit in their lifetime. It really can't be understated how important things like Imperial War Museum and all of the UK are to the rest of the world's history, and Brits just voted to basically castrate all of that. Last I read the most popular food in the UK was tikka masala (damn good btw) and that is all from colonization and immigration. Brits colonized India, liked their food, British-ized back home and stuck it in a sandwich in some cases to make probably one of the best things I've eaten. London is an incredibly multi-cultural town and I'm worried with this vote it's back to the IRA days with the nail bomb in the gay bar.



Patrick said:


> It isn't as simple as that. Immigrants working on low wages are being paid many times more than what they'd make in their own country, so they don't feel exploited.


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## aj47 (Jun 24, 2016)

So, employers don't hire immigrants in the rest of the world cuz they're cheaper.  Nice to know.


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## PiP (Jun 24, 2016)

It is not a topic about illegal workers in the USa ... or anything else...

The OP asked the Brits


Schrody said:


> I just opened the newspapers, and there, on the headline: "Britain's leaving EU" I'm shocked, I thought (I was sure) your referendum would go as the Scottish one did. How are you feeling? Personally, I don't think "consequences" will be that drastic as they're predicting, but what do I know? Talk, but please, stay civil.
> 
> Also, I probably won't be able to travel there with only my ID anymore (because you can inside of the EU)



I think us Brits were asked how *we* were feeling.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Jun 24, 2016)

PiP said:


> What happens in the US of A has no bearing on life as part of Europe.





I would beg to disagree. If Europe is not affected by what goes on in the US, why is it that when our stock market goes batty, yours does too? How many times have European Countries, particularly the UK been dragged into  a military intervention by the good ol' US of A? Why are so many Europeans terrified of a Donald Trump presidency if our decisions don't impact the rest of the world?

And don't think the UK exit from the EU isn't affecting us either. When our stock market opened it was down over 500 points, or a little over two percent.


But yes, this is about the Brits' feelings on Brexit. I apologize if we have gone off topic.


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## Aquilo (Jun 24, 2016)

Patrick said:


> Perhaps they should concentrate on extolling the virtues of our own British union that has existed for 300 years, rather than wishing it to break up in petty spite.



I hope it isn't a trek solely into the virtues of the British union. That's like asking people to vote out of the EU based only on negative information. I'd hate to think the British union would start with making the same mistakes, especially by downplaying the concerns of one class of people.


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## LeeC (Jun 24, 2016)

mrmustard615 said:


> To comment on afk's post, this whole 'everybody picks on me' because I'm white attitude is what might be getting us Donald Trump. Look, I'm sorry you hate the other guy because he's willing to work for less money, probably because he has to feed his kids with something, but is it really worth a world controlled by Donald Trump and Boris Johnson? We need to start respecting each other instead of scapegoating each other. That's the only way people not in the loop will be able to control their own destiny. Tearing each other apart only makes those in charge even more powerful, if it it doesn't appear that way on the surface.


                          Plus


astroannie said:


> We have issues with immigrants getting paid for working here, too. Some are hired illegally. That is just as much, if not more, on the employer than on the folks earning the pittance.


Yes, and if one thinks about Annie's and MM's posts together, they might think about all the illegal immigrants and down and out that businesses like corporate agriculture, meat packing, ... take advantage of, and hi-tech bringing in so many foreign workers to keep wages down here. 


I'm not saying who's right or wrong, nor that there aren't other influencing issues, but that our whole culture is a pyramid scheme with most all climbing on the backs of others (directly or indirectly) for the lofty prize of material gain. Whether in my youth seeing sings in the window "No dogs, No Injuns," or turning whites against blacks in the south, or a myriad of other examples in all countries, it's the same throughout our culture no matter how much we turn a blind eye to it. What heartens me is seeing some, like MM and Annie, that look at things more realistically.


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## afk4life (Jun 24, 2016)

I just spoke with a British student who's been doing exchange in DE. He wanted to move there and now he's pretty sure that's impossible. Which sucks.


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## Schrody (Jun 24, 2016)

Ultraroel said:


> Now! For all the countries to introduce a ban on religious political parties.
> This is maybe more necessary than anything else!



I agree.



Patrick said:


> That's intolerant.



When the Church's bugging you with who to vote (and it's always the conservatives), saying you're not a Croat and you don't like your country if you vote differently, when they're interwoven into every pore of a society, when they call unmarried women who had premarital sex sluts, when they protest about art and plays, yes, I think it's time to stop with all that crap. 80 and such percent are declared as Catholics, mostly because they were raised that way, or because they're not Croat enough if they're not Catholics, but the truth is, a lot of them doesn't even believe or practice religion - hypocrites. So, when crap like that starts happening in your country, maybe you'll be as "intolerant" as me. Back to the topic.


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## ppsage (Jun 24, 2016)

As a USAer, I feel like we've got one separated from the herd and it's time to move in for the kill. I don't know what's wrong with our stock market, can't see an opportunity I guess.


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## Sonata (Jun 24, 2016)

astroannie said:


> We have issues with immigrants getting paid for working here, too. Some are hired illegally.  That is just as much, if not more, on the employer than on the folks earning the pittance.



Not just immigrants.  I am not in the UK or the US but although I am prepared to pay far more than the minimum wage, most workers will only work on "the black" - ie cash in hand.  And I will be the one who is in trouble if I do so and will be the person taken to court for illegally employing someone.  They just take their money and go.

It would not be a pittance either, it would be far more than the minimum wage, for someone to help me a couple of hours a week.


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## Patrick (Jun 24, 2016)

Schrody said:


> I agree.
> 
> 
> 
> When the Church's bugging you with who to vote (and it's always the conservatives), saying you're not a Croat and you don't like your country if you vote differently, when they're interwoven into every pore of a society, when they call unmarried women who had premarital sex sluts, when they protest about art and plays, yes, I think it's time to stop with all that crap. 80 and such percent are declared as Catholics, mostly because they were raised that way, or because they're not Croat enough if they're not Catholics, but the truth is, a lot of them doesn't even believe or practice religion - hypocrites. So, when crap like that starts happening in your country, maybe you'll be as "intolerant" as me. Back to the topic.



Censoring people because you don't like them isn't the way to go. Tolerance is being able to disagree without assault (physical and verbal) and attempts to silence one another. If somebody makes a ridiculous argument, tell them to grow up, and you should be mature enough to shrug it off, too.


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## Schrody (Jun 24, 2016)

Patrick said:


> Censoring people because you don't like them isn't the way to go. Tolerance is being able to disagree without assault (physical and verbal) and attempts to silence one another. If somebody makes a ridiculous argument, tell them to grow up, and you should be mature enough to shrug it off, too.



Well, I don't wanna argue, but Church in my country have done far worse things than censorship.


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## Schrody (Jun 24, 2016)

Okay, back to topic. How do you Brits feel? Why was it a good thing to leave? Why was it a bad thing?


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## -xXx- (Jun 24, 2016)

_*is just in awe*_


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## Thaumiel (Jun 24, 2016)

I think it's too early to say whether it was a good or bad move. If it is a bad move then we're screwed, since everyone I've seen discussing it appears to make the worst out of a bad situation. 

The sun goes down, it will still come up (probably) and life will go on. There are worse decisions that the world is yet to make.


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## The Green Shield (Jun 24, 2016)

Wow. That's it, then. The UK is no longer part of the European Union. o__o It feels very weird, even for me and I'm a Yank from across the big blue pond_._ I don't know how much of an impact this will have on the UK but I wish all the UKers here the very best, especially to those who _really_ didn't want this to happen.


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## JustRob (Jun 25, 2016)

Well, now that our relationship with Europe has been decided I'm contemplating the relationship with the US. The pound has dropped in the foreign exchange markets, so that offer that I made to a chap in California for a vintage control panel for my computer project will cost me more as I stated it in dollars. On the other hand we booked an all inclusive holiday cruise on the Rhine next year some time ago, so the sterling price for that has already been fixed. This should be a good time for Americans to take a holiday in the UK although my friend in Alexandria VA says that he has to visit his in-laws on Key West for the 4th July. I wonder whether we'll be celebrating our independence many years into the future. More American tourists could mean more Texans, although they won't find their way to our corner of Kent. Bearing in mind the EU flag, I suppose we'll have more in common now as we really have become the lone star kingdom. I'll have to keep an eye on our investments as we are retired and they constitute our personal wealth. Certainly my banking shares will have taken a dive, but they are a tiny portion of the portfolio and foreign investments will probably compensate. 

Considering what my parents had to put up with to retain our sovereignty against events in Europe during WWII, this is all small beer. There are far more important things in need of our attention following our holiday in Wales. Our cats have forgiven us for being away from home for a week now but it's an important time in the garden and my angel needs to catch up with all that is demanding her attention there. There's no point in making this monumental decision to preserve our British way of life if we don't focus on pursuing it. One man interviewed in a café (I didn't type the accent on that word. Autocorrect must have EU allegiances.) on TV yesterday pointed out that he felt that he was having a full English breakfast in England for the first time. Not so much a lone star kingdom as a lone star state of mind then.

Will those suffice as personal reactions from a Briton?


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## dither (Jun 25, 2016)

JustRob said:


> I suspect that many of us English, with the emphasis specifically on _English _rather than British, never considered ourselves to belong to the EU anyway, but we were never asked for our views on the matter, not so far as I can remember, which is a long time. Some of us simply voted not to be part of the EU regardless of whether others presumed that we were already. Technically we didn't vote to leave anything then, did we? What politicians, business men and financiers do is in many ways another world. What has become apparent during the referendum campaign is just how separate our many worlds here are.
> 
> I heard a report in the news a short while ago about the possibility of France also having a referendum on membership now. Maybe other countries are contemplating it as well. I think we have to be more concerned about the future of the EU itself. A community is sustained simply by being good neighbours, isn't it?




We brits aren't the only ones wanting out of EU imo.
The eyes of  the big players will be upon us now.  It's sink or swim time, and if WE can do it......


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## bazz cargo (Jun 25, 2016)

There is a world wide case of nationalism, Mr Trump is just one example.

The change will be good for some and some will be run over by the fallout but it is not the end of the world. I am philosophically inclined to be cooperative so I am personally disappointed.  I feel sorrow for those who will be paying for this mess.


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## Ultraroel (Jun 25, 2016)

Patrick said:


> Censoring people because you don't like them isn't the way to go. Tolerance is being able to disagree without assault (physical and verbal) and attempts to silence one another. If somebody makes a ridiculous argument, tell them to grow up, and you should be mature enough to shrug it off, too.



Well, Law Nr.1 in my country is that church and state are separated. It's a basic next step to not allow religious parties.
If you want to promote your religions opinions, that's fine. But then do it in a neutral party that uses arguments instead of commands from a book.
The separation of state and church has shown to be necessary during medieval times. Since another religion is doing the same kind of things christians did back then, it might be better to ban this, before it actually becomes a thing.

It's not censorship, it's a call for actually raising arguments for your cause instead of calling your points god's will. It's very easy. 

Back on topic. 

Here in Bulgaria lots of expats are getting stressed out. Having houses here, their money there etc.. 
It's a stressful prospect for many of the UK people here.


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## Patrick (Jun 25, 2016)

Ultraroel said:


> Well, Law Nr.1 in my country is that church and state are separated. It's a basic next step to not allow religious parties.
> If you want to promote your religions opinions, that's fine. But then do it in a neutral party that uses arguments instead of commands from a book.
> The separation of state and church has shown to be necessary during medieval times. Since another religion is doing the same kind of things christians did back then, it might be better to ban this, before it actually becomes a thing.
> 
> ...



How about you don't tell me what political views I can and can't have? We've already seen the result of that here with the EU referendum. Read carefully: I'll vote for whichever party I please, and you will not impede on my democratic choice. If I ever come to Bulgaria, I'll be sure to observe its laws.

It'd be a good thing if people outside the UK stopped derailing this thread.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Jun 25, 2016)

​Okay, now I have to go red. If you guys want to debate please PM each other. In the meantime let's see if we can keep to the intent of the OP, cool?


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## Schrody (Jun 25, 2016)

Calm down, kids.


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## Patrick (Jun 25, 2016)

If anyone is interested, here's a view I agree with:

http://www.breitbart.com/milo/2016/06/24/the-end-of-globalism/


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## Aquilo (Jun 25, 2016)

Just looking at the difference in exchange rates between the US & UK this morning...

Living in the UK, I also work with US publishing companies (same to on the author side). If a cheque comes through for a project of $1,220, that transfers now to £892... that's a slight increase to a previous cheque. Ughh, but bank charges... I wander if conversion payments will go up to with us leaving? My bank takes a cut out of the cheques before tax is deducted (same with royalty payments) and... hhhhm. Just so much to think about now.


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## JustRob (Jun 25, 2016)

Er, I'm getting confused. Donald Trump was in our country, Scotland to be precise, praising us for our brexit decision as he sees it as a stand against immigration. At least immigrants choose to live in our country and try to be a part of it. They are very different from a foreigner who buys up a tract of land in our country to build a golf course disregarding the objections of the local residents while planning to strengthen the barriers against foreigners around his own country. I may live at the other end of Britain, but I am aware that Scotland didn't vote for brexit because it has suffered more through absentee landowners than it ever has through immigration. In that respect Trump is representative of their problem, not its solution. I try to refrain from passing comments about the man and his relationship with his own country, but he came here with his misconceptions.


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## Patrick (Jun 25, 2016)

According to David Lammy, the free choice of the British people should be ignored by parliament. https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/746728892279431168

This is why the British people voted in favour of Brexit, in a nutshell. Anti-democratic elitists should resign if they are no longer able to represent and serve the will of the British people.


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## JustRob (Jun 26, 2016)

I liked Nigel Farage's comment about some people demanding a second referendum because the first was too close. He said that it's not a "best of three" situation. Personally I don't mind another referendum so long as they keep to the schedule. The last was in 1973, I believe, so the next can take place in another 43 years time, if the EU still exists then. 

On the other point I believe that David Cameron said that the result wasn't just advisory but that the government would follow the wishes of the electorate. Our primitive electoral system has been criticised as distorted for many years, so this is the first time in a very long time that a truly representative proportional vote about anything has been arranged. The fact that our government has evidently drifted so far from the wishes of the people does indicate that electoral reform is necessary. Had they adopted a proportional representation system years ago this bombshell might not have taken them by surprise now, but they do so love their party politics above true democracy.


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## Mistique (Jun 27, 2016)

In all honesty the whole Brexit thing, and even worse the Nexit disussion (Netherlands leaving the EU) keeps me up at night. I just can't help, but think back about the reason why the EU, and similiar european organisations, were formed. After the second world war we wanted to make sure that nothing like that would and could ever happen again. Brexit has only just happened and already there is talk of Scotland and Nothern Island seperating from the UK. About Spain taking Gibralta back. I worry about what will happen if the EU falls apart and nationalistic views start taking over decisions that countries make. Extreme right is thrilled with Brexit and I always get nervous when they are happy. I believe that without a united europe, I will see war before my life is over and I still don't want anything like that to ever happn again.


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## bdcharles (Jun 27, 2016)

I admit - I am struggling with the relevance of democracy currently. Ever hear those organisations whose figurehead or chairperson or whatever says "this is not a democracy". Those organisations seem to me to function quite well. Of course in the context of a country, it is more complex and there are far more opportunities for abuses of power and manipulation but really, the only thing that is different is that; trust earned. Failing that simply elect the leader democratically but don't try and democratically do their job for them, not on the big issues anyway. That is something we need to examine; democracy is held up as some immutable manna-from-gods proclamation like the US constitution, to be invoked willy nilly - but we invented these things! We can change them and use them differently! Otherwise what's next? Develop a race of robot overlords that we then dub so untouchable that they run amok? Huh? Rampant robots?

Actually that would be cool. Bad example, badly made.  Point stands though.


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## Ultraroel (Jun 27, 2016)

Democracy has already shown it's not working, how else can politicians be so disconnected from their public. 
Also, it was already shown Democracy only works on a small scale. 

The fact that it was bombarded to the ultimate governing system for our countries is scary.
This cause the current system facilitates the bigger companies and not the people. 
Look at how sponsorships and such are screwing with the American system.

I'm just sad that democracy has become the ultimate, untouchable truth, and we aren't even searching for a better way.
On the other hand, communism has been bombarded to the worst option. 

Both are utopia's that will never work in real life.. and unfortunately, being ruled by the mass, means being ruled based on populistic topics that have nothing to do with actually governing a country.


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## JustRob (Jun 27, 2016)

I have always considered democracy to be system which allows people to vote for things that they can't have. If one brings in a multilevel system, i.e. people voting to select a smaller number of people to represent them in decision making to cope with large populations, then one encounters the problem that a majority of a majority may very likely be a minority by simple maths. When those representatives group together to form common policies as political parties the effect of grass roots wishes are damped down even further. The key is to establish a system which is not so sensitive to public opinion that nothing can ever be decided and yet not so insensitive that there are sudden wild swings from one policy to another when public opinion reaches a critical level. Party politics provides stability and direction at the expense of democracy in the short term, which for some of us isn't short enough evidently.

The maddest thing about the composite multilevel electoral system is that the Labour MPs are now faced with having to keep a leader that they don't want because their party elects the leader separately at grass roots level as that's seen as democratic. Oh, hang on. Isn't there a political party in the US with a somewhat similar problem at present? Isn't democracy wonderful?


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## Patrick (Jun 27, 2016)

bdcharles said:


> I admit - I am struggling with the relevance of democracy currently. Ever hear those organisations whose figurehead or chairperson or whatever says "this is not a democracy". Those organisations seem to me to function quite well. Of course in the context of a country, it is more complex and there are far more opportunities for abuses of power and manipulation but really, the only thing that is different is that; trust earned. Failing that simply elect the leader democratically but don't try and democratically do their job for them, not on the big issues anyway. That is something we need to examine; democracy is held up as some immutable manna-from-gods proclamation like the US constitution, to be invoked willy nilly - but we invented these things! We can change them and use them differently! Otherwise what's next? Develop a race of robot overlords that we then dub so untouchable that they run amok? Huh? Rampant robots?
> 
> Actually that would be cool. Bad example, badly made.  Point stands though.



The point here is we can't be given a referendum on our membership of the European Union only to be told, after months of bitter campaigning and needless nasty rhetoric, that we have decided incorrectly. They didn't have to give us a referendum in the first place, and each political party could have, during the last election, stood on a promise to leave or stay part of the EU. They didn't do that because they put winning the election first, and it was clear for the conservatives that promising a referendum was their ticket to election. Now that we've had the referendum, the issue is settled. Results are in. The British people have spoken and to renege would be to undermine trust in parliament. There would be absolute chaos, including marches on parliament, and rightly so.


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## afk4life (Jun 27, 2016)

It is gonna be awfully expensive come November when libraries and bookstores have got to reclassify all of Orwell's stuff to the nonfiction section...


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## dither (Jun 27, 2016)

Patrick said:


> The point here is we can't be given a referendum on our membership of the European Union only to be told, after months of bitter campaigning and needless nasty rhetoric, that we have decided incorrectly. They didn't have to give us a referendum in the first place, and each political party could have, during the last election, stood on a promise to leave or stay part of the EU. They didn't do that because they put winning the election first, and it was clear for the conservatives that promising a referendum was their ticket to election. Now that we've had the referendum, the issue is settled. Results are in. The British people have spoken and to renege would be to undermine trust in parliament. There would be absolute chaos, including marches on parliament, and rightly so.



And if the remain camp win a second one by a similar margin that will be sufficient i suppose.

Could just encourage bigger turnout.

Then there might be a greater representation of what the people of this country want.


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## Patrick (Jun 27, 2016)

dither said:


> And if the remain camp win a second one by a similar margin that will be sufficient i suppose.
> 
> Could just encourage bigger turnout.
> 
> Then there might be a greater representation of what the people of this country want.



There won't be a second referendum, nor should there. If the remain vote won a second referendum, what then? Best of three? 

No. 1 vote either way was considered sufficient beforehand. 1.3 million votes was the difference after a turn out over 70%. Historically, there has not been such a large turn out and so much support for one position. If we don't now leave the European Union, the British people will have been betrayed.

It's time to accept that Leave won and Remain lost.


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## dale (Jun 27, 2016)

i'm hoping my state leaves the US federal government like britain did the EU. i can totally see why britain left that
insanely corrupt and pilfering union. really? i don't mind most of the states in the USA. i just think we should all get together
and throw a huge keg party in washington DC and destroy the place.


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## LeeC (Jun 27, 2016)

dale said:


> i'm hoping my state leaves the US federal government like britain did the EU. i can totally see why britain left that
> insanely corrupt and pilfering union. really? i don't mind most of the states in the USA. i just think we should all get together
> and throw a huge keg party in washington DC and destroy the place.


Funny you should note this dale. A headline in the newspaper this morning was #NHexit. I guess everyone is getting the bug. After coming out east I settled in NH to escape Taxachusetts. Quite a different place with its "Live Free or Die" motto. 

Like you I think DC is likely the most corrupt place in the U.S., but what I see differently is that they are only so relative to the breadth of their influence. What I mean by that is that NH, for instance, is only less corrupt relative to its regional influence. There is no institution of humankind that hasn't been corrupted by the hand of humans. Such is evidenced throughout our history if one doesn't wear horse-blinkers. 

So after states secede then maybe the next wave will be counties, then cities, then neighborhoods ... One the other hand maybe we could root out corruption, but who to replace them with so many wannabes in line. 

The great imponderable of human culture. When it makes my head hurt I fall back on:
“_I am glad I will not be young in a future without wilderness._” ~ Aldo Leopold

Best wishes bro *Save**Save*​


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## Kevin (Jun 28, 2016)

Errm...does this mean they'll be closing Downton?


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## JustRob (Jun 28, 2016)

I assume that David Cameron will be having his usual weekly meeting with Her Majesty. I wonder how that will go. He is resigning because the people want him to do something that he prefers not to. Her Majesty has potentially been in that position all her life, having the government write her speech for the opening of parliament each year during her reign and putting their words into her mouth while she sits on the throne. That is the long established arrangement between the sovereign and the people, allegedly represented by the government. It seems ironic that when the Prime Minister is faced with the same prospect of following the wishes of the people against his own he resigns. It does demonstrate the contrast between being royal and being a politician. No wonder she still attracts so much respect in this modern society. Will she thank him for calling the referendum to hear the people's wishes or tell him to man up and follow through on them as she always does? We will never know.


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## Boofy (Jun 28, 2016)

Historically, referendums are often repeated. 







I don't see why it would matter that we have a second referendum. If the people have spoken, let them speak again. It's hardly less democratic than parliament just telling us they've heard us and are going against the democratic decision made by the public anyway. They have every right to do so. A referendum is in no way legally binding and acts more as a survey than anything.

I was a remainer, typical student that I am. Don't mind my balled up fists, folks. I'm not angry, I'm clutching at straws. ;D


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## Phil Istine (Jun 28, 2016)

Boofy said:


> Historically, referendums are often repeated.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If it were to happen, and I doubt it very much, I would need to think very carefully about which way to vote.  Although I feel that the electorate has made a massive blunder, the thought of the high-ups cocking a snook at the ordinary people (yet again) could override that.  I just don't know.  There was a lot of misinformation flying around and it would be easy to justify a lot of things over that.  It really would be a case of can I look in the mirror and tell myself that I've been honest?
I can't see there being a re-run, but some kind of fudge wouldn't surprise me - hopefully chocolate.


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## Sam (Jun 28, 2016)

What's the point of democracy if you can just call a do-over whenever you want? 

The people of the UK have spoken. And most likely the majority of the people calling for a re-vote are the same ones who didn't get off their ass to vote in the first place, thinking that it would be a cakewalk for a remain vote. 

The count was 34 million people who voted. There's 55 million in England alone. That's 20 million people who didn't bother to vote, and that doesn't even include Northern Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. 

If they have a do-over now, and then the remain side wins it, what's to stop the leave side calling for another do-over? Voting would become a farce.


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## Patrick (Jun 28, 2016)

Guys, democracy doesn't end with the vote; it begins with the vote. What comes after is its implementation and compromise from those who fought a battle and lost. We compromise and accept losses all our lives because the alternative is butcher's work. Man has done that for a long time too, but we are blessed to live at a time when we can ask major questions about the direction of our country, debate one another from the streets to the houses of parliament and back again, and at the end of it all, having raised only our voices, to get on with our daily lives with mutual respect.

Democracy rests on the will of the people being respected. If parliament were to block this or call for a second referendum, the narrative of the people vs the elite would become entrenched and the argument that a vote to leave is a vote for democracy would only be louder. We would also see the total disintegration of our two major political parties... so now that I think about it, perhaps it wouldn't be such a bad thing. However, it would be very bad form by the remain side of this not to accept the mandate. How do you think I felt growing up and seeing Tony Blair win election after election? I understood even as a child that though I couldn't stand the man we had to just get on with it as a nation because he was democratically elected.


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## Phil Istine (Jun 28, 2016)

Sam said:


> What's the point of democracy if you can just call a do-over whenever you want?
> 
> The people of the UK have spoken. And most likely the majority of the people calling for a re-vote are the same ones who didn't get off their ass to vote in the first place, thinking that it would be a cakewalk for a remain vote.
> 
> ...



I do agree that the result needs to be accepted, for better or worse.
But then I'm thinking that the EU itself could feel threatened with disintegration.
So, what if that threat led to a thorough examination of the EU constitution to make it more accountable to electorates, free movement was watered down a bit (perhaps countries allowed to impose restrictions based on a percentage of a nation's current population) etc. - or a small proportion of those who wish to work in another country reserved for specialised occupations.
Ordinarily in negotiations, there is a bit of movement from both sides and everyone ends up with some of what they want.  Sort of ... tackling it in a similar way to an industrial dispute.
I'm not advocating this incidentally, just thinking of a way forward that is less painful for everyone except the ruling class's ego.


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## escorial (Jun 28, 2016)

the future is global....the new world order has been emerging for years now and we need to be thinking about that..Africa,Middle East,South America....they all need infrastructure and Democracy..Capatalism has left these behind and I think it's because of political instability..and this is were globalisation can step in and I hope England can shed the out moded tag of the name United Kingdom and find away into the global markets......


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## JustRob (Jun 28, 2016)

My angel drives a Peugeot while I drive a Honda. I suspect that European car manufacturers will carry on manufacturing right hand drive cars for the UK market though. Trade is trade and competition is competition.

With the pound falling against the dollar, is that an incentive for us British writers to make our stories even more appealing to the US market? For example, should I consider changing the spelling and terminology in my novel appropriately? Actually I write fantasies and you have just read my latest American fantasy. In your dreams.


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## Ultraroel (Jun 28, 2016)

Discussing democracy as if it is not inherently flawed on a big scale.


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## Kevin (Jun 28, 2016)

I cant say in this case... I can relate to something called Prop 13 that happened in my state. Against the strong warnings of our elected the people went ahead and voted to limit property taxes (*Gasp!* I know!)As predicted, the sky fell, huge cracks opened in the earth and our civilization was swallowed whole. In the long-term we're now the highest taxed state. 30 years later and we re-instated Gov'ner Moon-Beam, aaand...we're all Namby now (or Pamby, depending on your preference). La la-la la-la.


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## Patrick (Jun 28, 2016)

Ultraroel said:


> Discussing democracy as if it is not inherently flawed on a big scale.



As Winston Churchill said, paraphrasing an unknown person, democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.


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## afk4life (Jun 28, 2016)

Between Trump, Brexit, and all that's going on in Europe there's just a few too many parallels to the end of the Weimar Republic. 

And everyone's gonna say that's hyperbolic and my response to that is -- hate crimes in the UK (at least the ones that got tracked) spiked 57% over last weekend. (source) An eleven year old kid who's a British citizen of Polish descent got a card telling him to go home ( source ) 

We've got white surpremacists creating a near riot in California in which ten people got stabbed, and that same group has offered to protect the Republican Convention. We're just over two weeks away from the worst hate crime/mass shooting in US history.

It's all well and good to debate the merits of democracy and the economics of Brexit, but there's a seriously nasty undercurrent in every Western country, and Brexit added fuel to that fire because so many of its proponents are nationalists. If British markets don't stabilize and the pound keeps tumbling the UK (probably all of us) will face major economic repercussions. We all know that the people who get hurt by that are not the rich people. And historically speaking, powerless and scared people tend to pick the leaders that are nothing short of terrifying to make them not feel so scared:



> "Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."


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## escorial (Jun 28, 2016)

people just cant get it...the vote was about those who have nothing to lose and those that have all to gain...this country I hope will split...


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## Patrick (Jun 28, 2016)

afk4life said:


> Between Trump, Brexit, and all that's going on in Europe there's just a few too many parallels to the end of the Weimar Republic.
> 
> And everyone's gonna say that's hyperbolic and my response to that is -- hate crimes in the UK (at least the ones that got tracked) spiked 57% over last weekend. (source) An eleven year old kid who's a British citizen of Polish descent got a card telling him to go home ( source )
> 
> ...



Many have tried to bring Europe together under one flag in the past, and all have failed.The radical actions you see are the lid coming off the kettle and the steam being released. Remaining part of the EU would have increased the tension. Not only would it have become impossible to keep the lid on with time, it would have blown off when it eventually did come off. It could have led to the rise of an extremist leader here, but it won't now. This is one of the reasons, among many, that I am very glad we voted to leave. It's nipped a kind of desperate racism in the bud. What we've got instead is a healthy national identity (among most). The racists will weed themselves out and all sides will condemn them.


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## JustRob (Jul 1, 2016)

I noticed that it was mentioned in the media that someone suggested that old people shouldn't have been allowed to vote in the referendum because it was the young people's future that was at stake. Didn't it occur to them that we grew old waiting for someone to ask us? Nobody asked me when I was seventy - or sixty - or fifty - or forty - or thirty ... so who's to blame for that? When bad things happen during a particular government's term in office they claim that it was precipitated by the decisions of others in the past, so if anything bad happens now we can equally claim that it is because we weren't asked much sooner.

Anyway, the opinion seems to be that the worst effects will be in the earlier years, which for some old people will be the rest of their lives, so the idea that young people have a larger stake in the outcome doesn't seem to ring true. Whether one expects to live for five years or fifty five, the rest of one's life is just that.

Changing the subject, I was reading something today about the possibility of people being able to foretell the future, a pet subject of mine. It mentioned that in experiments designed to eliminate all possible influences some years ago by Dr Daryl Bem he observed that where the results should have been 50% by chance they were actually 51.7%, which he considered to be significant and indicative of premonition. Statisticians disagreed with him though, saying that 51.7% was not significant enough. Er, what were those percentages in the referendum results again? Well, it certainly proved that nobody can predict the future with any confidence anyway. Donald Trump did it but through overconfidence as usual of course.


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## Patrick (Jul 1, 2016)

The idea that the old shouldn't have a say in matters like this is, frankly, offensive. The bratty generation can complain all they like (I am only 27), but their anger is misplaced. If they truly feel their future has been damaged, then they should complain about the low turnout among 18-24-year-olds. Those who prioritised Glastonbury over voting in the referendum get no sympathy from me. Too bad. They should reflect on the generations that fought and died for the freedom and democracy they take for granted.

If the right to vote was distributed according to the years one has left to live, then we'd have to deny those with life-threatening illnesses as well as the old. And why should the old, who have paid a lifetime of taxes for the ungrateful youth of our country, not have a say? Fewer than 40% of 18-24-year-olds turned out. To turn around and blame old people... I just have no words.


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## JustRob (Jul 1, 2016)

Patrick said:


> To turn around and blame old people... I just have no words.



Actually I think the person that I was thinking of was an old celebrity who didn't care about the result themselves and therefore didn't see why anyone else as old should vote either. I just can't remember now who it was. I must be getting old.


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## Phil Istine (Jul 1, 2016)

A slippery slope IMO.  Trying to remove classes of people from the electoral roll could be a modern version of gerrymandering.  I would probably support adding 16-18 year olds and prisoners to the roll but apart from those possibilities, altering the roll each time would be too open to abuse. I'm referring to elections generally rather than just a referendum.


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## afk4life (Jul 2, 2016)

Voting age should be 16 in both our countries. Here, felons can sometimes vote, even though it's written into law in a lot of places that either doesn't happen or like in Puerto Rico a lot of them (well actual prisoners apparently) "voted" possibly under duress. The political process, voting, all of that should be core to education from the earliest days of school. We are still dealing with the ghosts of 2001 and 1994 here, so I don't agree that older populations are affected more, some of the kids killed at Pulse weren't even alive when our pols gave that guy a right to take out an entire club with an assault rifle. And while I don't know your voting systems I suspect it is very much the same as here where every single obstacle that wasn't blindingly illegal was in place for first-time voters. Here, multiple cases thousands of them just disappeared from the rolls so they couldn't vote, or were told to vote "provisional" without being told that most likely wouldn't be counted. Entire blocs in several states were hit with a computer glitch that changed from Dem to Republican. And before someone says I'm not talking about the UK, I am, you've just given a blueprint to every hard right, nationalist movement as to how to co-opt the process. The KKK here has taken notice. And the dynamics in Brexit are near identical to what happened here with the one progressive candidate we had. I'll just return to the UK for a bit here because Scotland's probably on the last plane out, and the IRA now has just as much 'justification' as it ever did to go back to its old playbook. You're stuck on an island with UKIP and all its dark side and the IRA more literally than ever. Good luck, especially if we get Trump or for that matter any viable Republican.


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## PrinzeCharming (Jul 2, 2016)

afk4life said:


> Voting age should be 16 in both our countries.



Political participation would be significantly higher. These late teens are learning how to drive, but they cannot vote. They pay taxes, but they cannot vote. They have a stronger sense of community membership, probably more pride in a lot of things, than the average eighteen year old.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Jul 2, 2016)

The problem is whoever is in charge of every government has the power to manipulate the vote any way they please. Here in the US the Republicans have been successful at making it harder for those that won't vote for them to vote and, in Texas in particular, have gerrymandered the districts so much that the Democrats can never take power again.

But before you start thinking this is just another diatribe against conservatism, I might mention that the Republicans learned from the Democrats. For most of the United States' history really, the Democrats have been gerrymandering districts and even cheating on the votes to get their candidates elected. It is still disputable that Kennedy actually won the 1960 Election over Nixon because there could have been some tomfoolery with the Democratic Political Machine in Illinois that gave Kennedy the state. I guess what I'm saying is it work both ways.

The truth is, if we didn't have our freedom of speech, we probably wouldn't have any freedom at all.


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## Patrick (Jul 2, 2016)

The anti-democracy protests in London are quite amusing to those of us throughout the rest of the country.


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## escorial (Jul 2, 2016)

went to a demo today in favour of jeremy corbyn...what is happening here is a coup by the political classes trying to make sure the gravy train keeps going and little to do with democracy....


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## dither (Jul 2, 2016)

For what it's worth i think that this the middle classes, the country's conscience, telling the European Government screw you.
And there will be other outs, i'm sure of it.


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## dale (Jul 2, 2016)

Patrick said:


> The anti-democracy protests in London are quite amusing to those of us throughout the rest of the country.



the fact is....people in so-called "democracies" are getting tired of being treated like 2nd class citizens by their governments, who seem
to have more interest in other countries and foreigners than they do their own people. this is why brexit happened, and this is also why donald
trump has the popularity he does in america. the politicians have basically said..."we can be as corrupt as we want and there's nothing you can do
about it, because YOU NEED US." well....guess what? the people are tired of it. the people are making a statement that essentially says...."no. we
really DON'T need you. we're tired of it."


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## escorial (Jul 2, 2016)

dales turning into Gandhi.....


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## dale (Jul 2, 2016)

escorial said:


> dales turning into Gandhi.....
> 
> View attachment 14738



lol. hardly. in my opinion, it's gotten so bad in this country that i would gladly vote for adolf hitler.


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## escorial (Jul 2, 2016)




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## escorial (Jul 2, 2016)

dither said:


> For what it's worth i think that this the middle classes, the country's conscience, telling the European Government screw you.
> And there will be other outs, i'm sure of it.



me thinks the middlin class are a bit nervous and don't want to see the uk as it is and have had to leave their ivory towers an mix with the people their scared of.....


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## PiP (Jul 2, 2016)

It will be interesting to reread these comments in four years time. 

I predict high unemployment, interest rates in double figures and subsidies slashed. There was no exit strategy just empty words, promises and false bravado. Now they've won the leaders are running scared for their political careers. i personally think ordinary people have been duped and I don't have confidence in any of the bumbling fools to lead us out of this sorry mess and fight for the best deal for Britain. That and all the racists are crawling out of the woodwork emboldened by the Leave vote. It's a great shame...


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## escorial (Jul 2, 2016)

PiP said:


> It will be interesting to reread these comments in four years time. I predict high unemployment, interest rates in double figures and subsidies slashed. There was no exit strategy just empty words, promises and false bravado. Now they've won the leaders are running scared for their political careers. i personally think ordinary people have been duped and I don't have confidence in any of the bumbling fools to lead us out of this sorry mess and fight for the best deal for Britain. that and all the racists are crawling out of the woodwork emboldened by the Leave vote. It's a great shame...




24 hours is a long time in politics......


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## Harper J. Cole (Jul 2, 2016)

PiP said:


> It will be interesting to reread these comments in four years time.



Hopefully we'll be back in by then ... :victorious:


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## escorial (Jul 2, 2016)

HarperCole said:


> Hopefully we'll be back in by then ... :victorious:





you put your left leg in.....


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## ppsage (Jul 2, 2016)

At 51% to 49% democracy fails. Too big a minority feels disenfranchised. ------------- I think a referendum on invoking Article 50 (?) by a specific date ought to be held now. It might evoke a more digestible and usable result. Ought to have been the question the first time, instead of 'do you want me to pussyfoot around about leaving for a while?' Should have been legally binding and specific. The pols promised beefsteak and delivered cottoncandy and you all fell for it again.


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## escorial (Jul 2, 2016)

ppsage said:


> At 51% to 49% democracy fails. Too big a minority feels disenfranchised. ------------- I think a referendum on invoking Article 50 (?) by a specific date ought to be held now. It might evoke a more digestible and usable result. Ought to have been the question the first time, instead of 'do you want me to pussyfoot around about leaving for a while?' Should have been legally binding and specific. The pols promised beefsteak and delivered cottoncandy and you all fell for it again.



[video=youtube_share;ZgubG-MOPT4]https://youtu.be/ZgubG-MOPT4[/video]


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## afk4life (Jul 2, 2016)

I'll just stick this here, it's a Vice news piece which hits some points made earlier in the thread. It's Vice, they don't censor, so *language warning* 

[video=youtube_share;eIdWYMvDsXU]https://youtu.be/eIdWYMvDsXU[/video]


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## dither (Jul 3, 2016)

ppsage said:


> At 51% to 49% democracy fails. Too big a minority feels disenfranchised. ------------- I think a referendum on invoking Article 50 (?) by a specific date ought to be held now. It might evoke a more digestible and usable result. Ought to have been the question the first time, instead of 'do you want me to pussyfoot around about leaving for a while?' Should have been legally binding and specific. The pols promised beefsteak and delivered cottoncandy and you all fell for it again.



I'm really not convinced that an appreciable percentage of the brits want to leave. There's very strong feeling , i strongly suspect, rightly or wrongly, that Britain, it's people, our limited resources and our history,yes history,what's wrong with that? are being prostituted. Too many are "getting off" on us.

We had to make our feelings known.

Damage done?
Beyond repair?

The ball is in the EU's court i think and they seem to want us gone now.


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## escorial (Jul 3, 2016)

well dither if the second civil war breaks out here..i hope we meet at Naseby or Edge hill and have a chat before battle commences....


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## afk4life (Jul 3, 2016)

That would be better than the first season of Skins...


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## dither (Jul 3, 2016)

escorial said:


> well dither if the second civil war breaks out here..i hope we meet at Naseby or Edge hill and have a chat before battle commences....



Lol!

It's a date.
I'll be with the ones sitting on the fence.


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## escorial (Jul 3, 2016)

once that is sorted back to a bit of imperialism...some unfinished buisiness across the pond me thinks...


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## Deleted member 56686 (Jul 3, 2016)

Don't ask for something too hard, Esc, we might align with France :lol:


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## escorial (Jul 3, 2016)

dither said:


> Lol!
> 
> It's a date.
> I'll be with the ones sitting on the fence.



war and dates that reminds me of Rigsby out with a meal with miss Jones

rigsby..you were married once..what was it like

it was like the war miss jones..long periods of boredom followed by short bursts of violence


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## escorial (Jul 3, 2016)

mrmustard615 said:


> Don't ask for something too hard, Esc, we might align with France :lol:





another chance to have a go at the french..bring it on...


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## PiP (Jul 3, 2016)

WE need a leader like Churchill going into battle and Margaret Thatcher (for all her faults) to cut through the crap to lead us out


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## dither (Jul 3, 2016)

Well,
Theresa May seems up for it.
As good a prospect as any perhaps.


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## escorial (Jul 3, 2016)

deffo PiP................


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## escorial (Jul 3, 2016)

come on guy's we can do this..we've stood alone before and come through......................lets put the Great back into great brittan....


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## afk4life (Jul 3, 2016)

[video=youtube_share;Rp5_Ul-qG0w]https://youtu.be/Rp5_Ul-qG0w[/video]


----------



## escorial (Jul 3, 2016)

[video=youtube_share;UD04yHDrvRc]https://youtu.be/UD04yHDrvRc[/video]


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## afk4life (Jul 3, 2016)

I was just going to post the video that's obvious to anyone knows Floyd, but the lyrics are oddly relevant so

Would you like to see Britannia
Rule again, my friend?
All you have to do is follow the worms.
Would you like to send our colored cousins
Home again, my friend?


All you need to do is follow the worms.


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## escorial (Jul 3, 2016)

afk4life said:


> I was just going to post the video that's obvious to anyone knows Floyd, but the lyrics are oddly relevant so
> 
> Would you like to see Britannia
> Rule again, my friend?
> ...


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## PiP (Jul 3, 2016)

escorial said:


> come on guy's we can do this..we've stood alone before and come through......................lets put the Great back into great brittan....



That was a long time ago. esc... Britain is now a diverse nation; a melting pot with Europe. There are downsides, yes, but the upsides have allowed everyday people on basic wages to travel, study and live abroad. And that's before we even consider companies who moved to the UK as their European HQ or have a foothold in Europe such as the Chinese. IF we leave Europe they will go as will the jobs. We are richer for experiencing different cultures first hand. The working man in the street has relocated to such countries such as Spain, Portugal and France to work and retire. I thought we'd moved on from our island mentality as we embraced new opportunities. The leave vote (to me) seemed more about teaching our politicians a lesson... a protest vote against the bureacracy. Portugal does not dot all the 'i's and cross the 't's' it goes it's own way. IT's the bureaucrats and PC brigade that need outing not our friends in Europe. I feel sad, Esc, not only for my family but the future and lost opportunities of all young people.


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## dither (Jul 3, 2016)

PiP said:


> The leave vote (to me) seemed more about teaching our politicians a lesson... a protest vote against the bureacracy. Portugal does not dot all the 'i's and cross the 't's' it goes it's own way. IT's the bureaucrats and PC brigade that need outing not our friends in Europe. I feel sad, Esc, not only for my family but the future and lost opportunities of all young people.



I totally agree.

As for the idea that foreign companies might pull out, i'm not convinced.
They didn't set up shop here help us out.


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## PiP (Jul 3, 2016)

I'll leave you with this 

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...investors-pulling-out-of-uk-after-brexit-vote
http://www.theweek.co.uk/brexit-0

My poor old brain hurts far to much and I have a couple of challenge poems to write 

Owards...


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## escorial (Jul 3, 2016)

first things first...


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## PiP (Jul 3, 2016)

Thanks, esc, it's the first time I've laughed about Brexit.


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## Phil Istine (Jul 4, 2016)

My initial thoughts were that the government would start shoring up the £ by increasing interest (mortgage) rates steeply - thus reducing spending power and worsening unemployment even more.  It appears though that they are content with a weak £  - and they may have little choice in that.  It would increase import costs but, as an inflation trigger, it could work its way out of the system after a two or three years as inflation rates are normally determined by comparisons with 12 months previously.  It would also help exporters, so maybe we ought to start making things again.  Unfortunately, it probably takes longer to start setting up a manufacturing base than it does to lose jobs in other sectors.  More self-sufficiency in food production would help too.
I would suggest exporting politicians, but we'd probably have to pay other countries for the disposal charges.


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## JustRob (Jul 4, 2016)

Phil Istine said:


> I would suggest exporting politicians, but we'd probably have to pay other countries for the disposal charges.



Perhaps an exchange deal could be worked out, UK politicians for EU migrants, but maybe we couldn't agree a suitable exchange rate for Nigel Farage as he's probably not too popular with their parliament at present. That deal alone could increase migrant levels here rather than decrease them.

On the other hand, they might agree to reduce migrant levels if we promised to keep him here.


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## Phil Istine (Jul 4, 2016)

JustRob said:


> Perhaps an exchange deal could be worked out, UK politicians for EU migrants, but maybe we couldn't agree a suitable exchange rate for Nigel Farage as he's probably not too popular with their parliament at present. That deal alone could increase migrant levels here rather than decrease them.
> 
> On the other hand, they might agree to reduce migrant levels if we promised to keep him here.



I've got a 10 zloty note here (from a bag of sweets in a local shop).  I'll start the bidding with that for him to go.  I don't even know if the note is real.


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## JustRob (Jul 4, 2016)

Phil Istine said:


> I've got a 10 zloty note here (from a bag of sweets in a local shop).  I'll start the bidding with that for him to go.  I don't even know if the note is real.



Is he for real either? I've a few Swiss francs somewhere, but perhaps I ought to hang on to those. I might need some stable currency eventually.


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## afk4life (Jul 4, 2016)

We've got two you can have.



JustRob said:


> Perhaps an exchange deal could be worked out, UK politicians for EU migrants, but maybe we couldn't agree a suitable exchange rate for Nigel Farage as he's probably not too popular with their parliament at present. That deal alone could increase migrant levels here rather than decrease them.
> 
> On the other hand, they might agree to reduce migrant levels if we promised to keep him here.


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## Patrick (Jul 4, 2016)

afk4life said:


> I'll just stick this here, it's a Vice news piece which hits some points made earlier in the thread. It's Vice, they don't censor, so *language warning*
> 
> [video=youtube_share;eIdWYMvDsXU]https://youtu.be/eIdWYMvDsXU[/video]



I can't stand these people. My revulsion is almost physical, and I mean that in the most literal sense. No dignity, no honour, just bratty London youth. They have no concept of meaningful dialogue; all they want to do is stamp their feet and spit the dummy. It's my future too, and I am really not interested in their ageist, divisive, libellous, and anti-democratic protests. I was raised to discuss and debate these issues in good grace. I want nothing to do with these people, and I feel angered every time I hear 18-24-year-olds dismiss the result of the referendum as if older people should bow to their wishes. Why? I am 27. To listen to these obnoxious little turds you'd think I had no living left to do.

Perhaps if they'd been able to muster an argument for remaining in the EU _before _the biggest democratic vote in our history, they'd have been able to persuade the rest of the population with, ya know, facts and reason.

And just to put this in context, only 36-40% of 18-24-year-olds voted. So what you really have is 70% of that age group voting to remain of the very low percentage that turned out. So there's a vast majority of fellow 18-24-year-olds they couldn't even convince to go and vote remain!


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## dither (Jul 4, 2016)

Phil Istine said:


> I would suggest exporting politicians, but we'd probably have to pay other countries for the disposal charges.



Toxic waste is expensive to offload.


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## JustRob (Jul 25, 2016)

During my search for currency more stable than the UK pound in my home I found, in addition to the Swiss Francs, fifty Syrian piastres. No, that's being far too pessimistic.


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## JustRob (Nov 4, 2016)

So now the high court has ruled that the government must win a vote in parliament to invoke Article 50 so that Britain can leave the EU. The government are torn between following the will of the people or of parliament, which could differ on this. The fundamental question is whether the demands of the people or the law and parliament are paramount, in other words whether we are republican or purely democratic at heart. And I thought all that business only messed up certain other countries, especially now.

The government is taking the ruling to the British supreme court for review, but failing that could they then take it to the EU court? Ummm  ...

Fundamental to all this is whether the royal prerogative can be used to overcome the issue, and that goes to the root of our constitution as a monarchy.


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## Kevin (Nov 4, 2016)

It's annoying when the people try to assert themselves. Better they should know their place, leave the decision making to those better qualified.


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## midnightpoet (Nov 4, 2016)

Kevin said:


> It's annoying when the people try to assert themselves. Better they should know their place, leave the decision making to those better qualified.



Reading internet comments, I'm not sure who is better qualified.](*,)

Or, we could just go with Jimmy Buffet's suggestion - "Let's all get drunk and screw.":drunk:


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## PiP (Nov 4, 2016)

Many of those who voted to leave have since changed their minds. Or the ones who gained most from Europe in terms of handouts are now whinging they still want financial support. And why should the tax payer prop up car manufacturing to stop closures in an area that voted to leave? These guys want to have their cake and eat it.

I am now convinced the loonies are running the asylum.


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## escorial (Nov 4, 2016)

let them eat cake....


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## bdcharles (Nov 4, 2016)

Kevin said:


> It's annoying when the people try to assert themselves. Better they should know their place, leave the decision making to those better qualified.



I don't know if you jest, but I somewhat agree. So do many people evidently - the electoral college, and various two house systems that proliferate, and so on, are all there to ensure that the will of the people is given a thorough wash by folks who know a little more than the average trogg on the street about such things. I mean, when I look out of my window and see the formless grey lumps trundling by, jimmying open car doors and poisoning cats and knocking over bins, I think to myself that there is no way in hell I want such people having any but the most basic say in a country's runnings, and I do mean that to be limited to things like who leaves the Big Brother house. They're just not intellectually equipped.


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## Kevin (Nov 4, 2016)

Where do you live... Detroit? Yes, I'm kidding, but what you describe is not the norm over here. Over here those sorts either don't bother or are prohibited from voting ( though our Gov'ner Moonbeam is hoping to change that, that if only the criminals could vote they would become upstanding) 

In any case, we have a different situation perhaps, where it is desired by some here that we not merge our economy with that of poorer nations as it is somehow perceived that a lowering of our living standards will occur. Actually, our standards have been on the decrease for some time, but there are those who wish to not accelerate that process. Then there are those who wish to export our wealth, and import poverty.  It is as if we are guilty of abundance or something.


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## Ptolemy (Nov 4, 2016)

PiP said:


> Many of those who voted to leave have since changed their minds. Or the ones who gained most from Europe in terms of handouts are now whinging they still want financial support. And why should the tax payer prop up car manufacturing to stop closures in an area that voted to leave? These guys want to have their cake and eat it.
> 
> I am now convinced the loonies are running the asylum.


The reason why is because none of the conservatives wanted to leave the EU in the first place. If I remember correctly, the conservatives (or Britian's equivalent to USA's conservatives) put that on the ballot to get elected saying that "Oh hey! Vote for us and we'll leave the EU" this was to I think curtail some votes to their side, what they didn't expect is for the people to actually vote to leave the EU. I believe the person who wanted to leave has since resigned and the new woman, forgot her name, hasn't pushed the big red button to truly leave the EU.


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## Winston (Nov 5, 2016)

From what I've read, Theresa May will be a good PM.  Possibly the best since Maggie T.  A little squishy for my tastes, but I'm a unrefined Colonial.  
Definitely not an "Iron Lady", more of an "Aluminum Dame".  Her stewardship will be adequate enough to steer Britain away from the shoals of a multilateral EU shipwreck.

No offence to all the Continentals.  I think England has done what is right for England.  I understand how out-of-fashion Nationalism is.  
Again, it's that silly "rugged individualist" in me cheering for Sovereignty and Self-Determination.
Brussels will only do what benefits Brussels.  As soon as the rest of you figure that out, the better off you will be.


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## JustRob (Nov 5, 2016)

As I understand it, and that is not very well, the argument in the high court ruling was that the royal prerogative can only be used if it doesn't affect domestic law. This is because that must be determined only by the people through parliamentary process, not by the crown. Hence in principle the crown can make decisions that affect the country at large in a general fashion, like declaring war on some other country, but presumably how the repercussions of that are handled must be determined through the democratic, or rather republican, process. Given some of the controversial decisions that have been made about starting hostilities in recent history even this basic approach to the royal prerogative has been revised. Clearly every decision made about the country eventually affects the everyday life of the people in some way, so on this basis any use of the royal prerogative could be opposed.  

The judges ruled that because the government has linked leaving the EU directly to revising British laws to diverge from those enforced by the EU the royal prerogative can't be used. In other words the sovereign cannot act on behalf of her people to reclaim their sovereignty even when the people have directly demanded it without the intervention of any other body. One can understand why there has been so much outrage about this. If the ruling stands and parliament procrastinates then its early dissolution is potentially the only logical way forward in order to re-establish its right to represent the people.

When even a direct referendum doesn't appear to receive a prompt and positive reaction from parliament and power factions still manipulate the system it explains why we don't take any interest in politics.


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## Phil Istine (Nov 5, 2016)

Ironically, just before Guy Fawkes Night too.

I actually think the judges had little choice.  This was always going to end up in the Supreme Court, whatever they decided.  It would have been more honest if they just said, "Too big for us.  Let the next level up decide."


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## dale (Nov 5, 2016)

"While stand the banks of England, England stands; when fall the banks of England, England falls!"

--Mr. Dawes


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## escorial (Nov 5, 2016)

give the job to Roy Hodgson..he could lead us out of anything...


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