# The grey area between outlining and pantsing



## AdrianBraysy (May 19, 2018)

Am I correct in viewing pantsing and outlining as a spectrum, more so than a binary choice? I just thought back on how I've been writing my current novel so far. I don't do a scene by scene outline in a separate document. what I do, is to write a super fast first draft without much care for detail. In my first draft, there's almost no dialogue, description etc...

All I have, is basically a rundown of the events in the following format:

X happens. Character does Y. Because of that, Z happens. Because of Z, character does A...

This takes my up to about 30000 Words when I'm done. I then run through the first draft, adding in dialogue and description. This brings the nevel up to about 50k Words. I then run through it one more time, adding in Deep thoughts that bring out who the character is on a much deeper level. This is about Another 10-15 k Words.

Do any of you write in a similar way? Would you consider this outlining or pantsing? I just view it as a multi-draft process, with a very crude first draft. What I like about it, is that when I get to the end of the first draft, it kind of gives me a feeling of completion, where I go: "Ok, novel is done. All I have to do now is add in the extras". Of course, those "extras" are very much needed and make up about half of the novel, but the sense of "almost done" is a great feeling when writing.


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## Bayview (May 19, 2018)

I agree that it's a spectrum, not a binary. So... I wouldn't give your process either title. I'd say it's somewhere in the middle, where I think the vast majority of writers are.


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## Theglasshouse (May 19, 2018)

To answer your question on this. Despite being no authority, if it makes you write 30,000 constantly then that is not outlining. I haven't tried it.

I think outlining is flawed, but don't have a convincing argument to answer why. For me if I could be a panster, I'd write a story faster. I only use outline if I had no other way of writing an idea in a story. Writers keep notebooks anyways for jotting down ideas. But I feel I want to write as a panster. To do so I've been reading of what some people do. Where they find their inspiration. And the superior style of writing, outlining versus pansting may not exist. But looking for new sources of inspiration may eliminate outlining. We "shouldn't wait for inspiration". I have heard this often. It comes from a lot of productive writers. People who I saw on youtube who did a writers conference. I agree since it is a problem but what we want to is seek a solution for the writing problems. A solution is needed for many real-world dilemmas. This may not be a dilemma but a writer problem or an issue I wish I could solve. So I don't discard the advice of everything I read. Much advice can be discarded on writing. Sometimes the fear of writing is too great because there is too much noise in my case. Or because of my language problems which discourage me a bit. Just my opinion.


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## Ralph Rotten (May 19, 2018)

Isn't pantsing when you pull down someone's pants?


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## Theglasshouse (May 19, 2018)

Of course not. I thought it means simply writing by the seat of chair waiting until your head bleeds to produce something. But I want to learn the pantser way if there is a way for example by simply writing whether using a newspaper for example to trigger a small story. Some people do this quite often. A member here was recently asking whether to base people on fictional reporting of journalist and reporters (he wanted to write a story on serial killers). It's things like these I want to try. How do people get ideas all the time, which is what I am looking answers for.


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## Ralph Rotten (May 19, 2018)

So being a panster is the same as _stream of consciousness_ writing?

I tried writing like that but without an outline I tended to paint myself into a corner.  Stream of consciousness writing is good for your first 200k words, when you are learning the ropes and just need to rack up the writing experience, but to do it for a project that is 100k words or more always seemed like a bad idea to me.  I write big books so when they need to be fixed, it is a huge job that leaves scars. 

For short stories and novelas, I could see being a panster.  But for the big projects, you need a blueprint.


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## Theglasshouse (May 19, 2018)

I was thinking that I wanted to learn ways to trigger ideas that I hadn't thought off randomly but better. Instead of outlining, word-association of character traits (connecting traits of one person by writing a word that I think up that are by association good matches) is used in writing and other improvisation techniques. To give a short example: why is a person angry in a park and the other afraid. This kind of writing is improvising a lot. "What if" is a good example of this. Or word association, take 5 words and write a scene on this. (got this from a book that explains these techniques) source: Characters in Action: Playwriting the Easy Way by Marsh Cassady

I sometimes ask "why questions" when I read a short story. So I want to learn more, when I write my stories. I will order some books since I need to get the basics of a story down. Anyways, outlining agree with if you need it, and feel you need a guide. Some people plan their novels in advance like j.k. rowling and some like stephen king just write away supposedly with good results. 

But I have nothing against outlining a novel.

In fact if you come up with a story idea like in the opening post using a technique where you can come up with ideas. But postpone writing the story for a story for later, that is the kind of outlining I might do myself. I am worried about my output. If you can write 30,000 words then good. Without a plan. But agree you need planning.

I think I tend to write a lot of my writer's ideas inside a notebook. What I don't like is that I make notes after I think up in my head ideas, and write the story many days later. Then it results in nothing. This is too much outlining that I want to correct. Becuase it results in nothing. I want to jumpstart a story without relying too much on it is what I am saying.


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## Bayview (May 19, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> So being a panster is the same as _stream of consciousness_ writing?
> 
> I tried writing like that but without an outline I tended to paint myself into a corner.  Stream of consciousness writing is good for your first 200k words, when you are learning the ropes and just need to rack up the writing experience, but to do it for a project that is 100k words or more always seemed like a bad idea to me.  I write big books so when they need to be fixed, it is a huge job that leaves scars.
> 
> For short stories and novelas, I could see being a panster.  But for the big projects, you need a blueprint.



No, stream of consciousness is a style of writing; being a pantser is a writing process. You could "pants" very formal, structured writing and you could plan stream of consciousness. I don't really think there's a relationship between the two.


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## Ralph Rotten (May 19, 2018)

Ahhh, now I feel like the lowbrow that I am.


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## Jack of all trades (May 20, 2018)

Bayview said:


> No, stream of consciousness is a style of writing; being a pantser is a writing process. You could "pants" very formal, structured writing and you could plan stream of consciousness. I don't really think there's a relationship between the two.





> stream of con·scious·ness noun a person's thoughts and conscious reactions to events, perceived as a continuous flow. The term was introduced by William James in his Principles of Psychology (1890).



It is a writing of one's thoughts, AS THEY OCCUR. That cannot be planned. Outlines are reviewed, tweaked, etc. Any modification to the thoughts makes it no longer a stream of consciousness.


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## Jack of all trades (May 20, 2018)

AdrianBraysy said:


> Am I correct in viewing pantsing and outlining as a spectrum, more so than a binary choice? I just thought back on how I've been writing my current novel so far. I don't do a scene by scene outline in a separate document. what I do, is to write a super fast first draft without much care for detail. In my first draft, there's almost no dialogue, description etc...
> 
> All I have, is basically a rundown of the events in the following format:
> 
> ...



This sounds like a hybrid, often called "plantsing".

I don't the how is all that important, really. It's *what you write that matters. Take advice from those whose writing you like and respect.*


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## Jack of all trades (May 20, 2018)

Theglasshouse said:


> I was thinking that I wanted to learn ways to trigger ideas that I hadn't thought off randomly but better. Instead of outlining, word-association of character traits (connecting traits of one person by writing a word that I think up that are by association good matches) is used in writing and other improvisation techniques. To give a short example: why is a person angry in a park and the other afraid. This kind of writing is improvising a lot. "What if" is a good example of this. Or word association, take 5 words and write a scene on this. (got this from a book that explains these techniques) source: Characters in Action: Playwriting the Easy Way by Marsh Cassady
> 
> I sometimes ask "why questions" when I read a short story. So I want to learn more, when I write my stories. I will order some books since I need to get the basics of a story down. Anyways, outlining agree with if you need it, and feel you need a guide. Some people plan their novels in advance like j.k. rowling and some like stephen king just write away supposedly with good results.
> 
> ...



Once I write something down, it feels finished. Even if it's just jotting a note. I have the same problem with telling my ideas to someone else. The exception is my joint writing partner. We have to discuss ideas, at times. Other times we just start with only one of us having an idea of what should happen. Then the other can react more naturally.

Bottom line, it doesn't matter what works for anyone else! What matters is what works for *you*! Experiment. Try things. You might fail. But so what? Edison was once asked how he felt about all the failures when he was trying to find a good substance for the filament for the lightbulb. His reply? "What failures? I have successfully eliminated these items." It boils down to your view of things. If you try something and don't like the results, you've learned something.

Given your language situation, the OP's style might work for you. It has the organic flow of pantsing, but gives you plenty of chances to polish the rough edges of the language. Email me if you want someone to work with on this.


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## Bayview (May 20, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> It is a writing of one's thoughts, AS THEY OCCUR. That cannot be planned. Outlines are reviewed, tweaked, etc. Any modification to the thoughts makes it no longer a stream of consciousness.



You're quoting from an 1890 psychology book? 

Oh, no, you're taking the first definition from dictionary.com. Which isn't the world's best source for literary terms, I wouldn't think, but if you take the definition right below it, the one _not_ marked "psychology", you'll read: "A literary style in which a character's thoughts, feelings, and reactions are depicted in a continuous flow uninterrupted by objective description or conventional dialogue. James Joyce, Virginia Woolf, and Marcel Proust are among its notable early exponents."

I think the key words for our discussion are *character's *thoughts and *depicted. *In the literary sense, the author _gives the impression_ of a person's natural, uninterrupted thoughts, but authors can carefully plan and deliberately execute this style. And they aren't the author's thoughts, they're the thoughts of the character, so obviously they're not stream-of-consciousness in the psychological sense.

Conversely, people can "pants" a more formal, structured style. I've "pantsed" this post, but the post isn't stream-of-consciousness. I "pants" most of my novels, but I've never written in the stream-of-consciousness style.


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## Jack of all trades (May 20, 2018)

Bayview said:


> You're quoting from an 1890 psychology book?
> 
> Oh, no, you're taking the first definition from dictionary.com. Which isn't the world's best source for literary terms, I wouldn't think, but if you take the definition right below it, the one _not_ marked "psychology", you'll read: "A literary style in which a character's thoughts, feelings, and reactions are depicted in a continuous flow uninterrupted by objective description or conventional dialogue. James Joyce, Virginia Woolf, and Marcel Proust are among its notable early exponents."
> 
> ...




"Stream of consciousness writing", which is exactly what Ralph said, applies to journaling. Maybe this video will help.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2tdYazay92E


Can you write a story where a character talks in journals in such a way? Sure. But since this entire thread is about the process of writing, I think "stream of consciousness writing" applies more to journaling than what you describe.


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## Kyle R (May 20, 2018)

In regards to the current debate: "stream of consciousness" is both a free-writing technique, and a fiction-writing technique.

In free-writing, "stream of consciousness" means you write down your own thoughts—as coherent or scattered as they may be—as they occur in your mind.

In fiction writing, "stream of consciousness" means you're portraying the _character's_ thoughts—as coherent or scattered as they may be—as they occur in the character's mind.

:encouragement:


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## Theglasshouse (May 20, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> Once I write something down, it feels finished. Even if it's just jotting a note. I have the same problem with telling my ideas to someone else. The exception is my joint writing partner. We have to discuss ideas, at times. Other times we just start with only one of us having an idea of what should happen. Then the other can react more naturally.
> 
> Bottom line, it doesn't matter what works for anyone else! What matters is what works for *you*! Experiment. Try things. You might fail. But so what? Edison was once asked how he felt about all the failures when he was trying to find a good substance for the filament for the lightbulb. His reply? "What failures? I have successfully eliminated these items." It boils down to your view of things. If you try something and don't like the results, you've learned something.
> 
> Given your language situation, the OP's style might work for you. It has the organic flow of pantsing, but gives you plenty of chances to polish the rough edges of the language. Email me if you want someone to work with on this.


Thanks for the offer. I have to wait until Monday to know if I can download the program I need. I found an affordable program that fits my needs or can help with my language problems. So hopefully I can focus on the generation of ideas when I write the story.

The writing of the beginning of a story, is probably the most important part of the story, and which I am usually worried about. That probably means to get the story going I need some ways to generate ideas. Then if I do find out what reactions I get from the beginning of the story are considered improvements. I'll pm you after the progress I make. I need to make sure I get the English correctly written and fixed first before I do that and find a story idea.(I have also bought books for concerns I have to improve the English which are the language problems that I need to solve the language problem situation)

Still, I suspect I may need more time and practice before I attempt anything else(such as making the English and the writing of the story idea work better). Then I can try your offer if I improve.


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## Bayview (May 20, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> "Stream of consciousness writing", which is exactly what Ralph said, applies to journaling. Maybe this video will help.
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2tdYazay92E
> 
> ...



It's a phrase that has two different meanings in two different fields. The dictionary definition Ralph linked to shows this (although he only included the meaning he approved of). If this were a psychology forum, I think the psychology definition would be the one we should use. But as it's a creative writing forum....


ETA: Sorry, I was confused... Ralph didn't quote the dictionary, Jack did. So where it says "Ralph" up there, it should say "Jack" or "you". Sorry, Ralph!


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## Jack of all trades (May 20, 2018)

Bayview said:


> It's a phrase that has two different meanings in two different fields. The dictionary definition Ralph linked to shows this (although he only included the meaning he approved of). If this were a psychology forum, I think the psychology definition would be the one we should use. But as it's a creative writing forum....



I just double checked and Ralph did NOT include a link.

As this is a *writing* forum, that includes nonfiction, and journaling is a type of nonfiction writing....


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## Bayview (May 20, 2018)

Jack of all trades said:


> I just double checked and Ralph did NOT include a link.
> 
> As this is a *writing* forum, that includes nonfiction, and journaling is a type of nonfiction writing....



No, you're right - he didn't include the link. I had to go looking for it in order to figure out what authority he was quoting. ETA: Double sorry - I see that Ralph didn't quote anything! It was Jack all along. Oops! <end ETA>

For the rest? I think you're being silly, but I don't actually care, so... carry on. In a thread about the spectrum of pantsing vs. planning in novel writing, it absolutely makes sense to use a non-literary definition of the term. In which case his comment about pantsing being when you pull down someone's pants was also totally valid and meaningful. Context is nothing.

Now, writing down thoughts as they occur to you seems to be about the only way to ever write (could you write down thoughts that _aren't_ ocurring to you?) in which case I suppose outlining is also a form of stream-of-consciousness writing. Hmmm... it's almost as though the term has no meaning when defined in the way you want it defined. But... I'm sure you're right.


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## moderan (May 20, 2018)

> For the rest? I think you're being silly, but I don't actually care, so... carry on. In a thread about the spectrum of pantsing vs. planning in novel writing, it absolutely makes sense to use a non-literary definition of the term. In which case his comment about pantsing being when you pull down someone's pants was also totally valid and meaningful. Context is nothing.



This is pretty much the default setting.


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## Theglasshouse (May 20, 2018)

To get back on track, do you "pants" a beginning or do you plan a beginning? Which do you do? Which do you prefer? In what kind of manuscript, short story, and novel? Do you use any real life for generating ideas or improvise? In planning or trying a mix what do you do? (my side of the discussion) In summary, if you answered these questions, what's your approach to starting a new story? I know writing a conflict is one way of doing it? But do you do what the op says? Where you try a combined approach. This question is only for the beginning stage of a story if anyone decides to help me know their process is for beginning a story.

Here's a new approach I am trying for characters. I give them a flaw depending on the situation, their background, and maybe there is a story. This comes to the story and plot approach. A story is a cause and effect, like a domino effect of characters' actions with consequences. So if I make a leader a lazy character, or a daughter escapist, versus a father that is strict. Then I could make a small short story based on this. Or if the character has a conflict within himself. He hates being orderly because he is irresponsible. You can brainstorm problems based on the personality trait and circumstances and psychological traits of the characters. Circumstances can equate to plot. You make it emotional. Then you try to make the character sympathetic. This I do not have any way. Other than suffering. All story is suffering and pain and so forth. Which makes the reader care for the characters.

Trouble starts when someone wants something. Someone a group of people or adversity is standing in the middle of the way. Because of their flaws. You start asking what if questions. You ask what would happen. And so on.

Consequences are miscellaneous, and traits backfire. But incorporating it into a scene and making it unpredictable is tricky in theory. So originality in character is important.


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## Jack of all trades (May 20, 2018)

Theglasshouse said:


> To get back on track, do you "pants" a beginning or do you plan a beginning? Which do you do? Which do you prefer? In what kind of manuscript, short story, and novel? Do you use anyways for generating ideas? In planning or trying a mix what do you do? (my side of the discussion) In summary, if you answered these questions, what's your approach to starting a new story? I know writing a conflict is one way of doing it? But do you do what the op says? Where you try a combined approach. This question is only for the beginning stage of a story if anyone decides to help me know their process is for beginning a story.



I might not be the best person to try to answer your questions because I find writing openings very easy.

I get story ideas from just about anything. A poor customer service person. Too much red tape. A news headline. A piece of a conversation that I happen to overhear. Any of those can inspire a story. Since it's only inspired, a certain amount of twisting or exaggeration is called for, to make things interesting. 

Once I have a story idea, I need to decide when this happens. In the past, present or future? 

Next I need a cast of characters. Who is involved? How did they get involved? Just a vague answer to these questions is all that's needed. Usually the characters bear a strong resemblance to people I know in real life. I pick and choose traits from various people, creating a character. (I'm sure there's at least one call of 'Frankenstein'.)

When I have the what, when, who, why and how, I introduce the main character(s). That's the opening. What best shows the MC? And will have the audience wanting to know more? Since I write scenes I see in my mind, sometimes the idea has to simmer a while, until a scene presents itself.

This is where I seriously part company with the "park your behind in a chair and just write" crowd. I need a scene in mind before I write. No scene? I work on something else. 

Not sure if this answers your questions to your satisfaction, but hopefully there's something useful in there.

This is a super busy week of what is looking like a busy summer. I'm not sure how often I'll be stopping by, especially with recent events. But I'll try to make time to help you. Just don't rely too heavily on books or software. At the end of the day, it's you and your imagination that creates a story.


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## Bayview (May 20, 2018)

Theglasshouse said:


> To get back on track, do you "pants" a beginning or do you plan a beginning? Which do you do? Which do you prefer? In what kind of manuscript, short story, and novel? Do you use any real life for generating ideas or improvise? In planning or trying a mix what do you do? (my side of the discussion) In summary, if you answered these questions, what's your approach to starting a new story? I know writing a conflict is one way of doing it? But do you do what the op says? Where you try a combined approach. This question is only for the beginning stage of a story if anyone decides to help me know their process is for beginning a story.
> 
> Here's a new approach I am trying for characters. I give them a flaw depending on the situation, their background, and maybe there is a story. This comes to the story and plot approach. A story is a cause and effect, like a domino effect of characters' actions with consequences. So if I make a leader a lazy character, or a daughter escapist, versus a father that is strict. Then I could make a small short story based on this. Or if the character has a conflict within himself. He hates being orderly because he is irresponsible. You can brainstorm problems based on the personality trait and circumstances and psychological traits of the characters. Circumstances can equate to plot. You make it emotional. Then you try to make the character sympathetic. This I do not have any way. Other than suffering. All story is suffering and pain and so forth. Which makes the reader care for the characters.
> 
> ...



I think it depends on what I'm writing - when I write romance the structure is more-or-less inherent in the genre and I don't do much planning at all, at least at the start. (Often I jot down notes for myself as I go, in order to remember what problems I've set up and will therefore need to resolve). That's for novels and novellas. I don't write many short stories, but when I do they're generally just a one-shot experience of a certain scene or experience. So before I start writing I know what I want the story to _do_, and then I figure out how to do that as I go.

For other genres? I struggle with structure, and I think it's partly because I _don't_ outline and should. But then when I try to outline I find myself abandoning the outline after a few chapters. My stories are character-based and I don't really know the characters until I'm writing them, so I can't outline before hand because I don't know what they'll do in different situations. If I were writing plot-based novels I think outlining would probably be more useful/important?


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## Theglasshouse (May 20, 2018)

to jack of all trades: It's okay, I hear what you are saying regarding the imagination and software. I admit I am a lazy writer. But that's because I suspect ideas come to me by the subconscious and jot down notes. But writing and observing behaviors is another way of looking at the character. Trying to understand the odd behaviors. Also imagining is not easy so I think what if helps me a bit. I imagine I need to try writing a page a day that would make a novel-length work. But when I address my English issues. Not to mention getting to know a character is where the imagination might be. I will try to see what I lean from other writers. (part of the lazy writer problem is I am afraid of struggling with english) But like I said I will address that issue first. Depending on the imagination I agree is what I need to do. For that I need to make those charcaters. I'll try not depend on books, I do wish I had a teacher to help.

to bayview: thank you. Do you write biographies as in enough to imagine a character out of context? I know for example a family member of mine prizes gold watches. I can imagine what he values, just through this. Do you look for out for character behavior to write down in a notebook? For example how you picture a character behaving and then getting in trouble. Since that is what conflict and fiction is about. I am asking this question since I am interested in how people imagine their characters and what trouble they give them. How about friends and close family members, do you get information on their behavior?


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## Jack of all trades (May 20, 2018)

Theglasshouse said:


> to jack of all trades: It's okay, I hear what you are saying regarding the imagination and software. I admit I am a lazy writer. But that's because I suspect ideas come to me by the subconscious and jot down notes. But writing and observing behaviors is another way of looking at the character. Trying to understand the odd behaviors. Also imagining is not easy so I think what if helps me a bit. I imagine I need to try writing a page a day that would make a novel-length work. But when I address my English issues. Not to mention getting to know a character is where the imagination might be. I will try to see what I lean from other writers. (part of the lazy writer problem is I am afraid of struggling with english) But like I said I will address that issue first. Depending on the imagination I agree is what I need to do. For that I need to make those charcaters. I'll try not depend on books, I do wish I had a teacher to help.
> 
> to bayview: thank you. Do you write biographies as in enough to imagine a character out of context? I know for example a family member of mine prizes gold watches. I can imagine what he values, just through this. Do you look for out for character behavior to write down in a notebook? For example how you picture a character behaving and then getting in trouble. Since that is what conflict and fiction is about. I am asking this question since I am interested in how people imagine their characters and what trouble they give them. How about friends and close family members, do you get information on their behavior?



I think the language is secondary. 

Think of this in terms of art. Whether you use oils or water colors, you need to know what scene you want on the canvas or paper. 

Write in whichever language you are most comfortable with. Use a mix, if that's how you think. Word choice is polish, and you can't polish thin air. 

All I'm saying is give different things a try and pick what works for you. But don't discount a method that hasn't been tried.

Of course, it's your life and your choice. I'll move on.


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## Theglasshouse (May 20, 2018)

I agree with trying a method that has been used. Such as that described by writers.


I can also try switching languages.(kind of need more context but I think I understand what you said).

I'll see what I can do. My standard academic english is perfect. What I can do is also try writing in spanish because it could help with the description which is where my word choice varies. I tried it a few moments ago. It seems to have less adjectives and nouns than english. The flow is better. I'll do a test again, and try writing the description in Spanish then translating it. I dont know if this is a case with spanish but there are almost no adjectives and adverbs especially. I also tend to edit less in spanish. But no one has read my work in spanish. My mother has always suggested I give that a try. I'll post what I wrote but this is an english forum. I described the backyard of my house inserting a small fantasy story. I also have a dictation software so I figure I could dictate it and translate it.As for imagining a scene having good language skills is essential. Less time is devoted to correcting the text.



> Las estatuas en el jardin aperecian de una apareciancia degastada hecho del desierto. Un colin de color de jasmin tenia un par de hojas finos como los de papel. Me echaba no mirrar la vista el sol, afectado por su immortalidad. Sin el sol que brillo con su esplendor un espejo, las aguas recogido por los cielos. Era quizas el mejor imagen que emitia la imagen en una manera natural, que no hacia que nadie podiese ser un dueno de la tierra. Los duendes reconcian esto. Se hecieron mas sabias con mas edad. Y solo ganaban con la edad con las buenas ganas. Por la viejez era para la gente, como un castigo. Nunca me di cuenta que los jovenes se estaban muriendo en esta cuidad.



I was in this cottage house's field of grass. The statues in the garden appeared to be a mirage because of their appearances of people. Deceptively simple made from desert sands. The same used to make anything into an artisan's artifact. There I noticed a jasmine colored hill and the tree and its leaves were as thin as papers. I took a look at the sun affected by its immortality. The water of the lake was being taken up by the skies. It was perhaps the best natural reflection I saw of myself. It was unadulterated, unaltered, and looked to me to be unspoiled. The dwarfs recognized here recognized this. They became wiser with age. They earned old age with exercising good will and perhaps will power. Old age was like a spell of punishment. I never knew the young dwarfs were dying in this city because of their age.


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## Jack of all trades (May 20, 2018)

Theglasshouse said:


> I agree with trying a method that has been used. Such as that described by writers.
> 
> 
> I can also try switching languages.(kind of need more context but I think I understand what you said).
> ...



I think the flow is better!


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## Renaissance Man (May 20, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> So being a panster is the same as _stream of consciousness_ writing?
> 
> I tried writing like that but without an outline I tended to paint myself into a corner.  Stream of consciousness writing is good for your first 200k words, when you are learning the ropes and just need to rack up the writing experience, but to do it for a project that is 100k words or more always seemed like a bad idea to me.  I write big books so when they need to be fixed, it is a huge job that leaves scars.
> 
> For short stories and novelas, I could see being a panster.  But for the big projects, you need a blueprint.



When I was a novice writer, I used outlines. I titled every short episode in the series I was writing for and while the stories were OK by comparison to co-written epic work I did later, pantsing created far longer stories and far more realistic end results. The difference between plotting and pantsing is (in my opinion) as follows.

Plotter: I want the ending to be a gun going off and "killing" a guy, only for us to realise the gun was loaded with blanks, therefore we have to establish the hero's gun never is loaded with real bullets and the villain takes the hero's own gun.

Pantser: I'm writing a book about an actor trying to solve a murder, who ends up face to face with a murderer intent on killing them. Remembering our character has a gun loaded with blanks for the shoot out scene of the movie, our quick-witted remembers the same thing and tricks the murderer into using their own gun.

One is planned, one occurs naturally. But in my experiences the *most* exciting and twisting and turning plots I've written have been done with a co-author's help because *nothing* is more realistic than having two sets of characters each written for by a different writer interacting with each other. The shockingly inconvenient twists of real life that cause plans to be changed, abandoned and fail are much more likely to surface with a wild-card writing with you. Sometimes we'll discuss where we want stories to go, but they often take detours, even if the route moral remains the same.

Is that plotting or pantsing?

I think every successful writer discards the jargon regarding their occupation and write whatever way rivets their attention. The only rule of writing I believe is golden is that if I was bored writing it, people will be bored reading/watching it.


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## Theglasshouse (May 20, 2018)

Thank you for the suggestion for using the other language as I could see this working for me specifically (might be something I didn't think was possible). Now to put it to work when I write. I've been informed I need to wait 10 days from now since my big brother will help me with the buying of the software. Because my little brother will get married the next month. They'll be wasting a lot of money on the wedding. I'll try being patient since I don't like being patient. Thanks again for caring about trying to help me with advice on how to improve what I write. I'll be using this as a work in progress.

Sorry that I went off topic, but it was for a good reason since I had the concern about the language.


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## Bodes (May 21, 2018)

I definitely see it more as a sliding scale. For example, I personally fluctuate. I started off my recent novel by putting down random thoughts. Sometimes there were 5 word sentences. Other times they were 3 pages of written dialogue and events. I then moved into casually writing, starting with somewhere I've not decided will be around chapter 7. Then I went back and wrote more scenes, putting them together as I went. Now I've gotten to the point where I'm writing short synopsis ideas for each chapter. 

Currently I have chapters 5, 6, and 8 completely written (minus editing). I have some short excepts or scenes I'd like to put in chapter 7, and I have a short synopsis for chapters 1-4 when I eventually get down to writing them.

So I've plotted general ideas, but began by creating random scenes I'd like to see.


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## Bayview (May 21, 2018)

Theglasshouse said:


> to bayview: thank you. Do you write biographies as in enough to imagine a character out of context? I know for example a family member of mine prizes gold watches. I can imagine what he values, just through this. Do you look for out for character behavior to write down in a notebook? For example how you picture a character behaving and then getting in trouble. Since that is what conflict and fiction is about. I am asking this question since I am interested in how people imagine their characters and what trouble they give them. How about friends and close family members, do you get information on their behavior?



I don't consciously look for character behaviour, and I don't keep a notebook, but I'm sure I absorb some details from people around me, characters in books or movies, etc.

And I don't write a biography - I just figure things out as I go. So, for example, I might have a character who collects watches, but I wouldn't know that about him until I wrote a scene in which his watch collection was mentioned.


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## bdcharles (May 21, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> So being a panster is the same as _stream of consciousness_ writing?
> 
> I tried writing like that but without an outline I tended to paint myself into a corner.  Stream of consciousness writing is good for your first 200k words, when you are learning the ropes and just need to rack up the writing experience, but to do it for a project that is 100k words or more always seemed like a bad idea to me.  I write big books so when they need to be fixed, it is a huge job that leaves scars.
> 
> For short stories and novelas, I could see being a panster.  But for the big projects, you need a blueprint.



Mmm. I think SoC, as a narrative mode, is even more abstract and that translates to the writing style, where you never quite know from second to second what word is coming next. Pantsing results in a comprehensible world, where you may not know what event is coming next but the words to get you there are structured normally. And the generation of ideas is slower so rather than just rattling down words, you let ideas come to you, which as we all know, can take time 

Also stream of consciousness seems to concern itself with inner feelings and thoughts in the main, whereas pantsing could include anything - thoughts, feeling, events, characters, set-pieces, dialogue, twists and so on.

But there's definitely overlap. My ideas might sock or pants themselves to me (I love pants as a verb!) but then they might lock onto some sort of nebulous "outline". And other times I consciously think of a goal or waypoint. Other times the story develops as I type it (though I may knock it into shape later). Where does pantserism stop and plannerism begin. Who can say? Mind you, I say all this as a hopefully-soon-to-be-published writer who's been working on one WIP for 5 years and the other for about 3. If I was a career writer with a deadline, I'd probably look into outlining more.


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## Theglasshouse (May 21, 2018)

Ok thank you Bayview, I'll accept that answer. I, for example, have noticed some family member behaviors such as stubbornness, like my family members stubbornness to follow directions, for example, a map on driving on the interstate is his only guide to get somewhere. He doesn't ask for directions. I think I know why he behaves that way. For one he used to be a general, reason number 2 would be he likes to not be considered stupid or is afraid of being called stupid. So there's plenty of reasons. His family needed the education. But he graduated when many people couldn't because of finances. Where he is from, there aren't many schools. So when he goes to the city it's a completely different world. People who had an easier way to educate themselves because of having a family educated that had a job.


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## Sam (May 21, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> So being a panster is the same as _stream of consciousness_ writing?
> 
> I tried writing like that but without an outline I tended to paint myself into a corner.  Stream of consciousness writing is good for your first 200k words, when you are learning the ropes and just need to rack up the writing experience, but to do it for a project that is 100k words or more always seemed like a bad idea to me.  I write big books so when they need to be fixed, it is a huge job that leaves scars.
> 
> For short stories and novelas, I could see being a panster.  But for the big projects, you need a blueprint.



You might wanna tell that to the 15 novels I've written, every one over 100,000 words, not a single one planned. 

You most certainly do not need a blueprint.


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## Terry D (May 21, 2018)

Endlessly debating the contrast between plotting and pantsing (#3 on my list of the dumbest words in any language) is what people do instead of actually writing. Sorry, I'm very tired and grumpy today.


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## Renaissance Man (May 21, 2018)

Theglasshouse said:


> I agree with trying a method that has been used. Such as that described by writers.
> 
> 
> I can also try switching languages.(kind of need more context but I think I understand what you said).
> ...



I've seen your posts and I can see by this post that you're one of those people who has a great talent for story telling, though English it's clear is NOT your forté. I recommend working with a partner who speaks English. If you have a good story, that's the engine, the eloquence is the body and paint job. If you can make a good engine and know someone who can make a good body and do a good paint job, that's perfect.


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## Theglasshouse (May 21, 2018)

Well, to be honest, it is a work in progress which shows promise but I appreciate the praise (as I am working on the story). I am working towards improving what I am doing. For example I plan to take a course in coursera by Wesleyan University (since I believe writing can be taught if I learn it from good teachers since I want to make my characters active). I may be a good translator of my work since I can make imitate the structure of the sentence. Maybe spanish is the language I need to write in. I have already written a page even though the start has been okay. English indeed is not my forte. If I paint well a picture it is because I am resorting to using my spanish now. Right now what my writing I believe lacks is character action that can change the plot (active characters, and the flow of writing in english). Making the story move forward. I may make good discussion posts in the eyes of those who appreciate it since each person here for example sam and terry d have many years of experience and knowledge on craft. Who I willl listen to. Who would most likely have a very different opinion on what I can do with stories. But I still need to keep preserving. Sure, I will get a writing partner. But first I need to make sure I find someone who agrees to do that. I reply to people's stories, hoping to make friends with others often. Eventually, I'll ask someone who will give me the plotting input I need, to know what direction to take the story next. I plan to continue writing the story without help. But realize that is for someone who is willing to work with me. I will post a small request in the appropriate section in case anyone is interested. Thanks for the advice. I know it has good intentions. Thanks for the praise, and I hope people succeed at what they have a passion for doing.

Just in case anyone wants to know the online course (I will be graded):

https://www.coursera.org/learn/craft-of-plot


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## Jack of all trades (May 22, 2018)

[SUB][/SUB]





Theglasshouse said:


> Well, to be honest, it is a work in progress which shows promise but I appreciate the praise (as I am working on the story). I am working towards improving what I am doing. For example I plan to take a course in coursera by Wesleyan University (since I believe writing can be taught if I learn it from good teachers since I want to make my characters active). I may be a good translator of my work since I can make imitate the structure of the sentence. Maybe spanish is the language I need to write in. I have already written a page even though the start has been okay. English indeed is not my forte. If I paint well a picture it is because I am resorting to using my spanish now. Right now what my writing I believe lacks is character action that can change the plot (active characters, and the flow of writing in english). Making the story move forward. I may make good discussion posts in the eyes of those who appreciate it since each person here for example sam and terry d have many years of experience and knowledge on craft. Who I willl listen to. Who would most likely have a very different opinion on what I can do with stories. But I still need to keep preserving. Sure, I will get a writing partner. But first I need to make sure I find someone who agrees to do that. I reply to people's stories, hoping to make friends with others often. Eventually, I'll ask someone who will give me the plotting input I need, to know what direction to take the story next. I plan to continue writing the story without help. But realize that is for someone who is willing to work with me. I will post a small request in the appropriate section in case anyone is interested. Thanks for the advice. I know it has good intentions. Thanks for the praise, and I hope people succeed at what they have a passion for doing.
> 
> Just in case anyone wants to know the online course (I will be graded):
> 
> https://www.coursera.org/learn/craft-of-plot




If it were me, before I'd spend money on a book, course or software, I'd try what's free. I'd write in the language I'm most comfortable using. See if the stories develop when I'm not struggling with remembering the right word.

If you want, I'm willing to work with you. In person is best, but it might be doable via email.


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## Theglasshouse (May 22, 2018)

To jack of all trades: Agreed I looked at the course syllabus again before making a final decision.I think I will not sign up. Even though coursera is a good website with lots of good universities.I don't like the course offering they offered(I looked at the syllabus which looks empty and focuses on revision.). 

As for the offer I will pm you my email address but I don't want to start right away. When I do that, eventually as you know I need to tell you when it is the best time to start. I personally want to begin at a day of the month that will be 3 weeks from now. The later the day on the calendar the better for me since I want to study some books on the basic craft of plotting a story. I may need time such as 3 weeks. Since I plan to order some books. That's why I need more time since I need the time to read. Plus I need the english software will I will pay for on the 1st of june. My brother's wedding is another issue on the 16th. Whatever the case those are the days that are important. I need more time. Let me know, it can be planned after 3 weeks have gone by.

Also, I will heed your language advice (to write in the language I can best express myself) but need more time so I can pay for the program for people with english difficulties. Which I will this month since my brother offered me the money after a week. I appreciate what you are doing. And will do what you suggest. Just need time to read and write, and get the software for editing my english.

Whichever the case it can't be now. But will be thinking about the offer. That's what I am trying to express. Thanks a lot.


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