# Jordan/Tolkien/Mcaffrey



## Screinstein (Jan 15, 2005)

ok so i have been reading a bunch of these forums lately b.c im bored and really didnt have much to do and they caught my eye... particularly the eragon thread...

one thing that seems to have everyone and their brother caught all up in arms about is the unoriginality of new books (once again particularly eragon) and how these books pretty much just copy ideas out of the three aforementioned authors plus a few others...

my problem is this: how can u nowadays come up with a COMPLETELY original idea without grabbing some elements of these authors??? i mean tolkien established the fantasy world, he wrote the rules for elves, dwarves, halflings and their interactions. Mcaffrey wrote THE book on dragaons and Jordan (i just love this guy, possibly my favorite author EVER... i mean matt, perrin, and rand or the coolest ppl ever!!!) has the magic down no matter what name u want to put on it... These were some of the greatest authors of our time and if u want to write a book about elves or magic or dragons you're BOUND to repeat some ideas be it ripoff, tribute, or plain happenstance...

thats just my thoughts and there are other major authors that should be put up with these three but im lazy like that so if u think ur author deserves an activist post them up and we'll see what happens


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## Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor (Jan 16, 2005)

Alot of famous writing has been inspired by works already created.  Things are bound to get repeated, but the repitition of ideas can often be good.

Drow (dark elves) could be considered an example of something copied but made original.


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## Oracle (Jan 21, 2005)

How do you make something different?

Simple. Create your _own_ world... In my fantasy series, I created all the races, developed my own science, and created my own powerful beings and phenomenons.

I don't have elves, dwarves, orcs, etc.

I have completely different beings... Kikinos, Aquiyyans, Zaelans, and Tyrsens. Hopefully one day, if my series is published, you'll be able to know more about those races.

I completely redefined "fairies" and "dragons" and made them something they've never been before, completely integrated with the science of my world.

I think my world is very unique, and I can't wait to finish writing my series.


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## Night Wraith (Feb 2, 2005)

I can't seem to put Jordan's books dow, HE IS AMAZING. No matter what I write about, I always seem to have some idea similar to one of his pop in my head. If you read to much of an author you tend to get some of their ideas lodged in your head. 

If you look at almost any book, you will find repeated elements. Whether in name or description, something will be repeated.

This is my theory.


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## lisajane (Feb 2, 2005)

Another example of an today's author who's created his own world is Chris Wooding, who wrote the book series _Broken Sky_. But he wasn't satisfied with one world with its own races, people, beings, geography, way of life... he created two. And they're both in the series. And then there's races, people and beings that are created from both worlds...

Very good series, I own the original set (there's about four different versions now). Marketed for ages nine and above, but you'd probably have to be about fourteen or fifteen to fully understand what's going on.


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## Pawn (Feb 3, 2005)

Jordan is probably the worst published fantasy author. Go read George R.R. Martin and Robin Hobb.


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## Night Wraith (Feb 4, 2005)

Why do you say that? He might not have the best grammar, but very few people do now a days.


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## Screinstein (Feb 4, 2005)

now now now, lets not go dissing Jordan...
one man's worst published author is another man's immortal, immaculate, incredible writing gOd

lol


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## Pawn (Feb 6, 2005)

Please, compare his writing, and I'm talking about his actual writing, _the way he writes_, his style, to any decent novelist. Jesus God, he is unbearably boring. I once accidentally skipped one of the books in his sequence, and didn't notice for months. His is the only fantasy series I've ever stopped reading. The man just can't write. As to the 'rivetting' plot: I've written better things on beer mats. His protagonist is unbearably stupid, and he bases his entire plots around repeated absurd misunderstandings and lacks of communication. For twelve books, or whatever. I mean Jesus. The man's a gratuitous fraud. And yes, I'm being terribly extreme about all this, but I really don't like him. I encourage you to read good fantasy authors.


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## Talia_Brie (Feb 6, 2005)

I don't want to get into how good or bad Jordan is, but I will add Steve Erikson to the list of exceptionally talented fantasy writers begun by Pawn.

So that'll be:

George R R Martin
Robin Hobb
Steven Erikson.

You might think Jordan has created the consumate magical system, but read Erikson. He's created the most impressive system of magic I've ever encountered.


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## Tyson (Feb 6, 2005)

Ok if you want repeated ideas, you have to put down one of the original books. The Bible. It has fantasy in it and other things describe I mean ways you could interpret things. You could take dragons out of it if you really wanted. I figured if we were giving credit to the birth of ideas the bible would be a good book to put down.
Tyson


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## Pawn (Feb 6, 2005)

I quite enjoy Ian Irvine's work too, in the unlikely event that anyone's ever read any of his stuff. Ursula Le Guin should probably get a credit for inventing Harry Potter before J.K Rowling had so much as peed herself.


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## Talia_Brie (Feb 6, 2005)

Pawn said:
			
		

> I quite enjoy Ian Irvine's work too, in the unlikely event that anyone's ever read any of his stuff.



I have, and while I managed to finish the first series of four books, it was only because someone lent me the last one. I wouldn't have paid money for it.

That being said, it was original, and created a unique set of worlds, races and cultures. So that's a good thing. I didn't like the protagonist I think. It was a while ago.


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## Gaes (Feb 7, 2005)

Talia_Brie said:
			
		

> I don't want to get into how good or bad Jordan is, but I will add Steve Erikson to the list of exceptionally talented fantasy writers begun by Pawn.
> 
> So that'll be:
> 
> ...



Erikson is superb, the world he created he made his own without needing to rip off any ideas.
Had a WOT book as a present for my birthday and don't have the heart to tell my OH that  I really don't like Jordan's books


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## Pawn (Feb 7, 2005)

Erikson's an author who I'm looking to get into, after reading a number of positive thoughts on him here at the forum. Martin came to me that way too. See, this forum really is useful!

Irvine's originality is nice. No dragons, no wizards. I wouldn't put him on a par with some of the others mentioned, I guess. Hobb will always be my favourite, because she before everything else a damn good writer.


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## Mike C (Feb 7, 2005)

For true originality in fantasy - and god know's there's little enough of it - read China Mieville. His first novel - king rat - is gritty urban fantasy like you never read before. His next, Perdido Street Station... just read it. you'll thank me.


http://www.write-across-europe.com


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## Talia_Brie (Feb 7, 2005)

Pawn said:
			
		

> Irvine's originality is nice. No dragons, no wizards. I wouldn't put him on a par with some of the others mentioned, I guess. Hobb will always be my favourite, because she before everything else a damn good writer.



That's what I thought too. His ideas were good, but I don't think the execution was there.

Having said that though, Steven Erikson uses dragons, but in an original way, as difficult as that is to believe.

He also has the best names for his characters. Quick Ben. Anomander Rake. WhiskeyJack. Rallick Nom. Caladon Brood. They're just cool.


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## Ham (Feb 14, 2005)

Talia_Brie said:
			
		

> So that'll be:
> 
> George R R Martin
> Robin Hobb
> Steven Erikson.



Agree with all of these, and to this pantheon of contemporary epic fantasists who are actually gifted writers as well, I'd add Guy Gavriel Kay.  He's my favorite prose stylist among the group, and only Martin is as gifted a plotter.  _Tigana_ and _Lions of Al-Rassan_ are my favorite single-volume fantasies ever.  I also have high hopes for R. Scott Bakker, but haven't read far enough to feel comfortable drawing any conclusions just yet.  

I agree also with the person who chimed in on China Mieville's behalf.  I don't think he belongs in the same company, but only because he's not writing epic fantasy.  He's more of an urban or contemporary fantasist, and is doing it as well as anybody.  I group him with Neil Gaiman (when Gaiman's at his best, anyway) and Tim Powers atop this group.


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## Talia_Brie (Feb 14, 2005)

I'd add my vote for Guy Gavriel Kay as well. I've just read the Fionavar books, but I thought they were exellent, and brilliantly written.

So:

George R R Martin
Robin Hobb
Steven Erikson
Guy Gavriel Kay.

It's not a very long list, is it?


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## Ham (Feb 15, 2005)

Talia_Brie said:
			
		

> I'd add my vote for Guy Gavriel Kay as well. I've just read the Fionavar books, but I thought they were exellent, and brilliantly written.



You should definitely check out Kay's other stuff if you liked Fionavar.  F.T. is well written compared to most of what's out there, but his writing and plotting styles have matured considerably from that early work.  It only gets better from there.


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## Bhauger (Feb 16, 2005)

Talia_Brie said:
			
		

> I'd add my vote for Guy Gavriel Kay as well. I've just read the Fionavar books, but I thought they were exellent, and brilliantly written.
> 
> So:
> 
> ...



R. Scott Bakker, Sarah Ash, Matt Stover, and China Miéville.



			
				Pawn said:
			
		

> Jordan is probably the worst published fantasy author.



No, no, I'd have to give this award to Terry Goodkind, who plagiarizes Jordan and Ayn Rand(*Shudders*).


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## Selorian (Feb 16, 2005)

I have yet to read it, but a book titled "Jackal of Nar" by John Marco was highly recommended by a friend. I haven't been able to find it, but I did find one by him called "The Eyes of God" that, from the back cover, looks to be a terrific book. When I finish Bradbury's "Something Wicked This Way Comes", I'll read and post what I think of "The Eyes of God" and John Marco. That is, unless someone can chime in and let us know something about him.


Cliff


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## Talia_Brie (Feb 16, 2005)

I've read The Jackel of Nar. I thought it was reasonably good. It was a traditional fantasy war narrative with some pretty good battle scenes. Marco didn't rely on the fantasy stereotypes, however one of the races was very elf-like, in terms of their physical appearances, woodcraft and reliance on the long-bow.

The overarching storyline for that series is very good, with an expanding empire basically collapsing under it's own weight of conquest. The hero, The Jackel, was flawed enough to make him interesting, but not enough to be annoying. He came through at the end.

I'm not sure I'd put him in the list with the big 4, but I haven't read any more of his books. He is probably in my top 10 fantasy authors, and that's good. He's better than average I'd say, but without reading any more of his books, it's hard to say any more.

Cliff, read the Jackel of Nar. It was a good read, if a little longwinded.


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## kerpoe (Feb 16, 2005)

Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor said:
			
		

> Alot of famous writing has been inspired by works already created.  Things are bound to get repeated, but the repitition of ideas can often be good.
> 
> Drow (dark elves) could be considered an example of something copied but made original.



amen


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## Talia_Brie (Feb 20, 2005)

Bhauger said:
			
		

> R. Scott Bakker, Sarah Ash, Matt Stover, and China Miéville.



I'm reading The Scar by China Mieville at the moment, on your recommendation I might add.

I'm not impressed, in the storyline or the craftsmanship. I definitely wouldn't be putting him on that list.


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## Bhauger (Feb 21, 2005)

Should have started with Perdido Street Station, I added him there because his stories are unique.


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## Ham (Feb 23, 2005)

Talia_Brie said:
			
		

> Bhauger said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're finding CM coming up short on craftsmanship?  I can see not liking his storylines.  Like any story, his either strikes a chord with you, or it doesn't.

But as a craftsman -- technically, stylistically, and literarily -- I find he's on a level that very few genre writers can dream of.  Where are you seeing shortfalls?  His stuff is laced with allusion, tight, well-wrought language that rarely if ever verges on purple prose, and clever metaphor.  He's writing genre fiction in the way of a Borges or Gene Wolfe, and is light years beyond anything the Bakkers and Martins and Eriksons of the world are up to, literarily speaking.

Like you (I think), I prefer the sweeping epic stuff, so China isn't 100% my bag, either.  Give me Martin every time.  But I think Mieville's a superlative writer in the craftsman sense.


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## Talia_Brie (Feb 23, 2005)

I don't know, it's a subjective thing I suppose. I found his sentance structures were occassionally confusing and overall disappointing.

It's not just the type of fiction, which is also not my bag, it's how he writes. I just didn't like it. Again, it's subjective.

I wouldn't class him with people like Martin and Erikson, and I personally believe the efforts to do so are purely on the grounds that he is writing 'Science Fantasy' as one reviewer has described it.

I don't think The Scar is a good book, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. It took 250 pages before anything remotely interesting started happening. To me that felt like someone riding off the success of their first two books.

But it could just be me.


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## NyteBlade (Mar 11, 2005)

Pawn said:
			
		

> Jordan is probably the worst published fantasy author. Go read George R.R. Martin and Robin Hobb.



I'm going to have to disagree a bit here. I really do like Jordan, and although he does seemingly drag on forever, I really like the Wheel of Time series, and it seems like it has quite a large fan following. Although I haven't got finished with even half the series yet, I do enjoy reading them. I personally haven't read any Martin, and I haven't even heard of Hobb, but I'll give them a look.


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## Bhauger (Mar 12, 2005)

NyteBlade said:
			
		

> Pawn said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Tugs hair and smoothes skirts*


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## swisstony (Mar 29, 2005)

Moorcock is clearly fantasy, as is Le Guin, neither go for the Tolkien stuff, and while we're at it, Weaveworld by Clive Barker, His Dark Materials, though I've only read the first, and that Stephen King/Straub book I can't remember the name of are all fantasy really, where fantasy melds with reality.  In terms of original worlds in the medieval time period, Peake's Ghormenghast is fairly original and a little Dickensian, which was really cool, he's clearly borrowing more from Dickens than from Tolkien.

I suppose Potter comes into that, but Potter was just the Famous Five meets DC Comics' The Books of Magic.

I have to disagree with George Martin as a 'gifted' plotter.  His plot is complex, clearly, but it isn't gifted.

The tragedy is that so many authors take Tolkien for their template.  Donaldson of course mixed the two worlds up, but ripped off the Rohirrim and can anyone say ring of power?

A little more research would help a lot of these books tremendously, Tolkien and Martin excepted.

So, I'm writing a fantasy novel at the moment, I'm shunning lots of funny little races and sticking to humans, I'm currently trying to work out how magic might affect the social fabric of a world entirely differently, because it needs to be different.

Will it succeed, well, you'll know when I know,


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## Dot (Apr 3, 2005)

I am a big sucker for Jordon, however I have found his series has become a tad big and unwieldly. I haven't seen Stephen R Donaldson mentioned. I thought his Thomas Covenant books very original. Another favourite is Elizabeth Moon's Deeds of Paksenarion.


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## Screinstein (Apr 3, 2005)

*stifled laughter*.... Moorcock? i have never heard of that author but i think even if i read i would never be able to take nythin they said seriously


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## PaPa (Apr 7, 2005)

Screinstein said:
			
		

> Mcaffrey wrote THE book on dragaons



Tolkien invented orcs, elves and halflings, but McAffrey definitely didn't invent dragons in any way shape or form.  She is in fact guilty of the reverse, of being unable to write an original fantasy because all she did was take an established fantasy creature - the dragon - and add a few extra details.  They're still fire breathing, flying reptiles.  The idea that anyone writing about dragons should have to base their work at least partially on McAffrey's is absurd, whereas virtually every fantasy author copies elves from Tolkien, albeit with a few of their own individual touches.


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## EchoDove (May 10, 2005)

Tolkien is definitely my favorite author. I am a Lord of the Rings fanatic, not to mention the movies...


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## journyman161 (May 30, 2005)

I was waiting for someone to mention Michael Moorcock. Yes it's an unfortunate name, but I doubt you'd laugh for long once you begin reading.

If you're going to try them (& there are 20 or more) try and get them in order; unlike a comment above, you'll know if you've missed one, but even so, they stand alone as novels. It's just if you're following the meta-story, there will be sudden holes in your understanding.

Just thinking of him brought back Dorian Hawkmoon, Count Brass & Stormbringer, the sword. The characters are dark & dire, the heroes are real people who have to fight like hell (& sometimes, fight Hell) to survive.

I haven't read a MM book in 30 years, but the images are still there. I gave up fantasy after trying a number of others because they were so disappointing after MM.


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