# Soundtracks for Novels: legal issues?



## Aquilo (Sep 13, 2019)

I know nothing about this, I've got to admit.

I've seen a fair amount of authors compile soundtracks to their novels and post it on their website, along with a few lyrics from the songs that point clearly to how the song and lyrics relate to their novel at various points. I've also seen soundtracks printed in the back of some of novels. With both, no permission has been gained to ask if their titles etc can be used as a soundtrack to that novel.

If you're listing tracks and lines from various artists, also tieing them to your work in a promotional way by placing it on your author website, isn't this going against copyright? When I see it, it always makes me feel uncomfortable. I'm just not sure where the law stands on it.


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## Irwin (Sep 13, 2019)

You could probably use the song titles without infringing on copyright protection--especially if you just say that you were inspired by the song. That's just a statement of fact. But you could be sued if you use the actual lyrics, unless of course, you get permission, which you should probably also do with the song titles, also, just out of respect. 

It takes a lot of work to write a song, and a lot of talent to write a good song, so don't steal somebody else's creativity.


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## Aquilo (Sep 13, 2019)

Irwin said:


> You could probably use the song titles without infringing on copyright protection--especially if you just say that you were inspired by the song. That's just a statement of fact. But you could be sued if you use the actual lyrics, unless of course, you get permission, which you should probably also do with the song titles, also, just out of respect.
> 
> It takes a lot of work to write a song, and a lot of talent to write a good song, so don't steal somebody else's creativity.



No, this isn't with mine, but with other authors I've seen.


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## Umree (Sep 13, 2019)

I remember reading Nick Hornby's _About a Boy_ is high school and thinking about his use of lyrics in the book. My English teacher at the time said something about how you can include song titles and reference small snippets freely, but longer excerpts require permission from the artist.

I feel like the laws governing this are similar to those related to plunderphonics. I think there the rule is that your song samples can't exceed 16 seconds. Perhaps quoting lyrics freely without permission is constrained to only a few words?


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## marosabooks (Sep 13, 2019)

I was told by a publisher you cannot use a song title in any fiction piece unless you have express written consent from the copyright owner. Because it borderlines on "fair use" publishers will not touch it BUT is you are self publishing

In its most general sense, a fair use is any copying of copyrighted material done for a limited and “transformative” purpose, such as to comment upon, criticize, or parody a copyrighted work. Such uses can be done without permission from the copyright owner. In other words, fair use is a defense against a claim of copyright infringement. If your use qualifies as a fair use, then it would not be considered an infringement.
So what is a “transformative” use? If this definition seems ambiguous or vague, be aware that millions of dollars in legal fees have been spent attempting to define what qualifies as a fair use. There are no hard-and-fast rules, only general guidelines and varied court decisions, because the judges and lawmakers who created the fair use exception did not want to limit its definition. Like free speech, they wanted it to have an expansive meaning that could be open to interpretation.
Most fair use analysis falls into two categories: (1) commentary and criticism, or (2) parody.
[h=3]Commentary and Criticism[/h]If you are commenting upon or critiquing a copyrighted work—for instance, writing a book review—fair use principles allow you to reproduce some of the work to achieve your purposes. Some examples of commentary and criticism include:


quoting a few lines from a Bob Dylan song in a music review
summarizing and quoting from a medical article on prostate cancer in a news report
copying a few paragraphs from a news article for use by a teacher or student in a lesson, or
copying a portion of a _Sports Illustrated_ magazine article for use in a related court case.
The underlying rationale of this rule is that the public reaps benefits from your review, which is enhanced by including some of the copyrighted material. Additional examples of commentary or criticism are provided in the examples of fair use cases.
[h=3]Parody[/h]A parody is a work that ridicules another, usually well-known work, by imitating it in a comic way. Judges understand that, by its nature, parody demands some taking from the original work being parodied. Unlike other forms of fair use, a fairly extensive use of the original work is permitted in a parody in order to “conjure up” the original.


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## Ralph Rotten (Sep 13, 2019)

How long are the clips?
I have heard hold music that was frequently interrupted by static simply because they wanted to avoid copyright issues (cheap bastages).

But since rappers started 'sampling' music in their mixes, the courts have changed their view on that practice.


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## Ralph Rotten (Sep 13, 2019)

I wouldn't add music to my site because that is a sure-fire way to have them leave & never return.
I ditch a site when they try to make me listen to audio.
Also, I get irked when the site won't load in a timely manner because it is loading the audio.


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## Aquilo (Sep 13, 2019)

Ralph Rotten said:


> I wouldn't add music to my site because that is a sure-fire way to have them leave & never return.
> I ditch a site when they try to make me listen to audio.
> Also, I get irked when the site won't load in a timely manner because it is loading the audio.



Nah, it's not an audio clip. It's this:

The author writes the novel, publishes it, then on his website, offers a soundtrack list that they say 'goes' with reading the novel. They also quote song lyrics on their website that they say 'match' the mood they are conveying in the novel, or they match a character they are portraying. In effect, they're using the songs to promote their novel, not from the inside of the cover, but on the author's website.


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## Bloggsworth (Sep 13, 2019)

"_Fair use_" for educational and illustrative purposes, although the _*U*niversal *M*usic *G*roup_ would have you believe otherwise; they strike down Youtube vlogs all the time for no other reason than they can intimidate Google into doing so - It's a very contentious issue as, of course, most vloggers can't afford to take them to court to enforce their "_Fair use_" rights.


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## Art Man (Sep 13, 2019)

Aquilo said:


> I know nothing about this, I've got to admit.
> 
> I've seen a fair amount of authors compile soundtracks to their novels and post it on their website, along with a few lyrics from the songs that point clearly to how the song and lyrics relate to their novel at various points. I've also seen soundtracks printed in the back of some of novels. With both, no permission has been gained to ask if their titles etc can be used as a soundtrack to that novel.
> 
> If you're listing tracks and lines from various artists, also tieing them to your work in a promotional way by placing it on your author website, isn't this going against copyright? When I see it, it always makes me feel uncomfortable. I'm just not sure where the law stands on it.



Definitely some permission is needed with any and all copyrighted material. No question about that.


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## Art Man (Sep 13, 2019)

Bloggsworth said:


> "_Fair use_" for educational and illustrative purposes, although the _*U*niversal *M*usic *G*roup_ would have you believe otherwise; they strike down Youtube vlogs all the time for no other reason than they can intimidate Google into doing so - It's a very contentious issue as, of course, most vloggers can't afford to take them to court to enforce their "_Fair use_" rights.



I fully support the artists and their labels with this topic. If I were to record a YouTube video I would seek out any and all permissions beforehand, especially with owned and copyrighted entertainment. You would be surprised how much you could get permission for without a charge if you'd actually do it right.


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## Art Man (Sep 13, 2019)

Irwin said:


> You could probably use the song titles without infringing on copyright protection--especially if you just say that you were inspired by the song. That's just a statement of fact. But you could be sued if you use the actual lyrics, unless of course, you get permission, which you should probably also do with the song titles, also, just out of respect.
> 
> It takes a lot of work to write a song, and a lot of talent to write a good song, so don't steal somebody else's creativity.



I'm sure that namedropping some artists and their lyrics inside of a book isn't infringement but I wouldn't do it because it seems so crass and hangerly.


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## Art Man (Sep 13, 2019)

marosabooks said:


> I was told by a publisher you cannot use a song title in any fiction piece unless you have express written consent from the copyright owner. Because it borderlines on "fair use" publishers will not touch it BUT is you are self publishing



Are you sure about that? Rock bands take lyrics and titles from books and movies all the time without permission. You'd think it would work both ways.

I've also read plenty of books where dedications quote song lyrics or poems.


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## Art Man (Sep 13, 2019)

Aquilo said:


> Nah, it's not an audio clip. It's this:
> 
> The author writes the novel, publishes it, then on his website, offers a soundtrack list that they say 'goes' with reading the novel. They also quote song lyrics on their website that they say 'match' the mood they are conveying in the novel, or they match a character they are portraying. In effect, they're using the songs to promote their novel, not from the inside of the cover, but on the author's website.



I don't know about this. Never seen it before. Must be indy authors.


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## Art Man (Sep 13, 2019)

I would just take my cue from movie makers who always do the routine of permissions on all of their materials. They make the most money in the entertainment industry so they must be doing something right.


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## Bayview (Sep 13, 2019)

It makes me uncomfortable when I see it, too. I have no idea of the legality, but it just seems--I don't know. Cheap, maybe? Like, create your own emotional impact, don't borrow it from someone else's work.


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## Aquilo (Sep 14, 2019)

Art Man said:


> I don't know about this. Never seen it before. Must be indy authors.



The author mentioned in my second post is trade published with Tor and, up until a few weeks back over non-payment disputes of up to $30,000, Dreamspinner Press. I honestly don't know if he has permission or not of all the artists his lists and their song lyrics he uses.



Bayview said:


> It makes me uncomfortable when I see it, too. I have no idea of the legality, but it just seems--I don't know. Cheap, maybe? Like, create your own emotional impact, don't borrow it from someone else's work.



I know we all say we listened to X track writing, but I'd feel uncomfortable too if it's also put on my author website with the lyrics pinpointing different moments/characters in my work. Grant it's not used in the novel, but it is potentially being used on the website for commercial means to sell a novel.

I honestly don't know here, but I'm a firm believer that you get permission.


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## seigfried007 (Sep 14, 2019)

I'm not certain the novelist is using the song to plug the novel so much as he/she is giving a friendly shout out to another's artist's work which he/she found particularly inspiring (ie: plugging another artist's work--it's free publicity for the other artist/record label). 

I suppose some people might get offended and assume that the novelist is plugging their own work, but I know I wouldn't mention my soundtrack with such intentions as advertising my novel so much as advertising the other artist. Plus, the person finding such a playlist has already found the novel, so no advertising is needed. Book and/or website is already being viewed, so it's crappy advertising. 

I would never buy a book because of the playlist that inspired it, but I might buy an album because an author plugged it and, in doing so, has written a pretty stellar review of said album.


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## Aquilo (Sep 14, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> I'm not certain the novelist is using the song to plug the novel so much as he/she is giving a friendly shout out to another's artist's work which he/she found particularly inspiring (ie: plugging another artist's work--it's free publicity for the other artist/record label).
> 
> I suppose some people might get offended and assume that the novelist is plugging their own work, but I know I wouldn't mention my soundtrack with such intentions as advertising my novel so much as advertising the other artist. Plus, the person finding such a playlist has already found the novel, so no advertising is needed. Book and/or website is already being viewed, so it's crappy advertising.
> 
> I would never buy a book because of the playlist that inspired it, but I might buy an album because an author plugged it and, in doing so, has written a pretty stellar review of said album.



It's a little different if it's on the author's website, seig, which is set up as a commercial outlet to sell work. By using the lyrics etc, it's in effect saying the artist is happy for his name and lyrics to be used to promote your work. And if that's not the case, the artist can sue, especially if you're writing content that he might not want to be associated with his work. I'm all for promoting artists, but when it comes to commercial outlets like author website, consent should always be the key. It's like you wouldn't put up images on your author website without 1st buying the rights to use them on your website.


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## seigfried007 (Sep 14, 2019)

Aquilo said:


> It's a little different if it's on the author's website, seig, which is set up as a commercial outlet to sell work. By using the lyrics etc, it's in effect saying the artist is happy for his name and lyrics to be used to promote your work. And if that's not the case, the artist can sue, especially if you're writing content that he might not want to be associated with his work. I'm all for promoting artists, but when it comes to commercial outlets like author website, consent should always be the key. It's like you wouldn't put up images on your author website without 1st buying the rights to use them on your website.



I get that--I'm just disputing an innately selfish self-plugging motive in all cases. Consent's always key 

I know some artists wouldn't necessarily want their work associated with Pinocchio, for instance. Some might like it, but I can't take it for granted either way, so if I were to use more than a song title or such, I feel like I should get permission (but I wouldn't even know where to start getting permission). The problem with song titles and even some lyrics is that there are half a million songs out there with the same lines and titles.  

Hence, I'm not using more than maybe three words of any given song or title for anything in the book. I also don't want to date the story in any sense of the word by saying what the characters are listening to or recognize; I want it to feel like either sci-fi or modern era, and I want it to age well.


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## Ralph Rotten (Sep 14, 2019)

Aquilo said:


> Nah, it's not an audio clip. It's this:
> 
> The author writes the novel, publishes it, then on his website, offers a soundtrack list that they say 'goes' with reading the novel. They also quote song lyrics on their website that they say 'match' the mood they are conveying in the novel, or they match a character they are portraying. In effect, they're using the songs to promote their novel, not from the inside of the cover, but on the author's website.





Oh, that's like using Fabreze to cover the smell of shite.
The writing should speak for itself.
I agree with Bayview.


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## seigfried007 (Sep 14, 2019)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Oh, that's like using Fabreze to cover the smell of shite.
> The writing should speak for itself.
> I agree with Bayview.



I dislike the notion of a soundtrack to read to for that very reason.  Everyone reads at a different pace, too, so there's no matching tempos there. Plus, I have a hard time concentrating on what I'm reading if there's music playing. The writing should speak for itself. 

A _writing_ soundtrack is another matter. I think it might be interesting to know what a writer was listening to when _writing_, but _reading_ a book shouldn't require a soundtrack to make it interesting.


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## Princesisto (Sep 15, 2019)

The issue will be, I submit, whether you have "published" copyrighted lyrics or "performed" copyrighted music without the permission of the songwriter, singer, publisher or whoever holds the copyright. If you do either of those things, you're for the chop.

Without doubt, there is no copyright in a song title: only the title. You can find 100 songs with the same title and no one can sue anyone. As one expert put it to me: you can call your song "Jumping Jack Flash" if you want and no one can do anything about that. But repeat "petrol" in American English thrice in the lyrics and you're on your way to court for publishing the lyrics of a Rolling Stones song without their permission.

Also, as a matter of clarity, you can publish anything with permission of the author, with or without payment as he/she chooses. I usually advise this route, at least to try. Many authors/songwriters/singers are writers like you and will try to help you. Some have a bad reputation as greedy bastards: I guess if I tell you who, then we're into the law of defamation . . . If you strike one, believe me, you will know it and no amount of forewarning will save you.

There is, in the post-1980s copyright law, the provision of compulsory licencing: once the New Little Princess (if she existed) performs "The Love Of A Friend" in a public place, she puts it into the public arena. Then you have the right to perform it (as she did, except for a certain amount of artistic licence with the music but very little with the lyrics) in a public place by first paying her the statutory licence fee (which is low, calculated by amount you performed and number of people who heard you). But don't perform it first and ask her later because you're already in breach of the statute and she can kick your kneecaps or sue you if she wishes.

There are a number of "rules" stated in this thread like the 16 second rule and "fair use" outside an educational context (you can distribute lyrics in a students' reading list for only the cost of photocopying for example) that I've never heard of. Well, I don't presume to know everything but I just query them because they sound apocryphal. I wouldn't stake a lawsuit on them without a solicitor's advice.

Now, specifically to your case. I have never heard of this before but, as I understand it, you are talking about an author who puts a playlist in his book or on his website. From the above principles, my conclusions are:

1. Are the songs the author's original (like mine in New Little Princess)? If really original, rock solid, no problem. You can publish your own work without doubt.

2. Is this "soundtrack list" just a list of titles of other people's songs? If so, rock solid, no problem.

3. You mention lyrics: the rocks start cracking and breaking. If the author publishes lyrics which are from other people's songs without permission, the songwriter can sue him. Yes, Stephen King does this all the time but you can bet that every songwriter or publisher was properly paid, 'cos our Steve has no money problems.

4. You can promote your novel on your own website or in the novel (e.g. book jacket) itself: no problem there. That is your copyright. But you cannot pinch other people's lyrics or music to do it, without their permission. Any more than you can rob your neighbour to get the money to put up the website :wink:


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## seigfried007 (Sep 15, 2019)

Is there a limit to how many words of lyrics one can use before it becomes a copyright infringement? You've got me worried now because I haven't actually quoted any songs (meaning placed them in the narrative and used quotes or attributed an artist) but, given the sheer number of songs out there, it's entirely possible to accidentally quote/plagiarize one. 


Trying to think of which songs I've used to make chapter titles... all but one of the references (that I know if) is a song title, and the one that isn't is "Closer to God" which is a reference to Nine Inch Nails "Closer" but also fits very much in the context of that chapter.


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## Aquilo (Sep 15, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> Is there a limit to how many words of lyrics one can use before it becomes a copyright infringement? You've got me worried now because I haven't actually quoted any songs (meaning placed them in the narrative and used quotes or attributed an artist) but, given the sheer number of songs out there, it's entirely possible to accidentally quote/plagiarize one.
> 
> 
> Trying to think of which songs I've used to make chapter titles... all but one of the references (that I know if) is a song title, and the one that isn't is "Closer to God" which is a reference to Nine Inch Nails "Closer" but also fits very much in the context of that chapter.



Lyrics I wouldn't touch even with fair usage, seig.  Not inside your novel. 

Titles themselves aren't copyright like the lyrics, but sometimes trademark can come in with band names etc. Recently Iron Maiden took a gaming company to court over calling their game Ion Maiden, saying it was too close to the name they had trademarked. titles can obtain a trademark, though, and here's an IP lawyer on it:



> One easy fix is to use the song title. Titles are not copyright protected. A song title can achieve trademark protection, but as long as you avoid using the song title in the title of your book or with any promotional efforts, you should not violate anyone’s trademark in the song title.



But it does state there '...or with any promotional efforts', which I'd have thought, putting the titles on an author website along the lyrics is a promotional effort.


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## Princesisto (Sep 16, 2019)

@seigfried007 @Aquilo gave you the salient answers. Don't consciously put other people's lyrics in your novel.

On the other hand, don't stay up at night worrying about unconscious plagiarism. It is the song that is copyrighted not the lyrics. For example, your avatar: if you put a line in your own song like "_She keeps me up complainin' like a Siamese cat_", it doesn't mean Ted Nugent, over "Cat Scratch Fever" and Stray Cats, over "Stray Cat Strut", are going to race you to court. The copyright is in their songs, not in the word "cat". You would have to use the same words in the same way to get into trouble. 

So, no one noticed or mentioned it when, in "_Frijos Frijoles"_, the Princess said about her cat: "_She's got a touch o' class and she won't take that_," even though this originates in Stray Cats' "_I got cat class and I got class style_". You can be inspired by others or even use some of their words accidentally: but if you are inspired, do it cleverly, not stupidly. :grin: 

Then there is the reality that "sampling" has become an epidemic in this century and many people do it and get away with it. There is a whole website dedicated to chronicling all the samples. www.whosampled.com. Not everyone who breaks the law gets prosecuted. Just don't set out to do it because you may be like the proverbial driver telling the proverbial policeman: "But everybody speeds down this road . . . ". But, on the other hand, you might get lucky like all these famous bands do (as Clint Eastwood said, then you have to ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?").


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## Princesisto (Sep 16, 2019)

@Aquilo - what the IP lawyer is talking about is misrepresentation by confusing the public. There is no copyright in a title: no doubt about that. But if you use the title in your title, or in your promotion, in such a way that a reasonable person would think that author is endorsing your book, when he/she is not, or even that your book is their book, etc. that is a different cause of action: not copyright but intentional or negligent misrepresentation, essentially false advertising, or even appropriation of their reputation. They can sue you for damages to their reputation and any misled reader could sue you for damages or, under the American consumer protection laws, perhaps for fines.

For example, if I name my book "Rowling's Order Of The Phoenix" or publish "This is a book the order of the phoenix would love", I would expect to get to meet J K Rowling . . .  in court.

It is one reason that the title of my novel is "The New Little Princess" not just "Little Princess" and in the back of my mind I am still not 100% sure a publisher would let it stand.


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## seigfried007 (Sep 16, 2019)

This all has me wondering about Pinocchio now. Original tale is public domain, so I can use it all I want in this crazy retelling. Definitely not retelling the Disney version, which changed quite a lot from the original. 

However, the Disney movie is also referenced via the name "Pleasure Island" (which lots of other people have used; I'm using it as the name for a gay bar) and in the character design of David Surrey (black hair, blue eyes). Due to his resemblance to the Disney character, a number of people called him Pinocchio as a child, and I believe the movie might have been playing during a particularly traumatic event. I can be as vague and subtle about it as I want, but knowing Disney... this might just be a pain in the publishing.

**Edit: looked through a bunch of character designs for other retellings, and said coloring is actually pretty common, so it doesn't have to be a reference to any specific work.


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## Aquilo (Sep 16, 2019)

Princesisto said:


> @Aquilo - what the IP lawyer is talking about is misrepresentation by confusing the public. There is no copyright in a title: no doubt about that. But if you use the title in your title, or in your promotion, in such a way that a reasonable person would think that author is endorsing your book, when he/she is not, or even that your book is their book, etc. that is a different cause of action: not copyright but intentional or negligent misrepresentation, essentially false advertising, or even appropriation of their reputation. They can sue you for damages to their reputation and any misled reader could sue you for damages or, under the American consumer protection laws, perhaps for fines.
> 
> For example, if I name my book "Rowling's Order Of The Phoenix" or publish "This is a book the order of the phoenix would love", I would expect to get to meet J K Rowling . . . in court.
> 
> It is one reason that the title of my novel is "The New Little Princess" not just "Little Princess" and in the back of my mind I am still not 100% sure a publisher would let it stand.



I'm aware, Prince.  I've been an editor for 8 years with publishing companies. The discussion, in general, is about endorsement away from the novel: lyrics and song titles used on other author websites that the author uses explicitly to say the lyrics represent their character in their work. It's clear what you can/can't do inside in a novel, but this is about what's on the website and what permission the author has been given to put those lyrics on a commercial website.


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## Princesisto (Sep 16, 2019)

@seigfried007 - On those things, I think you're right. Again, the copyright is in the story, not in the name of an island or the description of a character  (unless it's fan-fic, where you've got clearly Disney's Pinocchio in another story). If any court decided that Disney had a proprietary right in all black-haired, blue-eyed characters, it would be laughed out of the appeals court. I'm trying to make you cautious, not paranoid!


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## Princesisto (Sep 16, 2019)

Aquilo said:


> I've been an editor for 8 years with publishing companies.


 :!:

Wanna see some books and stories . . . ? 

And your real name's Jack too, like me? OMG!

I'm sorry, I really wasn't trying to lecture you. I was trying to reassure some other members who don't have that level of experience while also trying to make them cautious and aware of the complicated issue.

On that issue as you defined it, I think it is quite clear that you can put other author's titles on your website so long as you don't make people think that those other authors are endorsing you, your website or your book when they aren't. You cannot put other people's lyrics, in a way that identifies them as the lyrics of another person's song (e.g. as above: you cannot use "I got cat class and I got cat style" but you can write your own "[my cat's] got a touch of class and she won't take that"), on your website, in your book/story or in any other public place. Whether the website is commercial or not is immaterial except perhaps on the amount of damages payable.

That is, as I understand it anyway.


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## Aquilo (Sep 20, 2019)

Princesisto said:


> :!:
> 
> Wanna see some books and stories . . . ?
> 
> ...



Lol, yep, I'm a Jack like you. A female one,which causes some issues lol. But my Dad always did have a sense of humour.

And lord, no! You're not lecturing: you're right in saying you're helping! I think it's more just frustration coming through on my part because I can't find a legal answer to this one.  I see so many authors do it on their websites and I'm always left wincing, especially when they put lyrics from songs on their website and tie it to their work. They wouldn't use lyrics in their novel without permission, so why do it on their website, sort of thing.


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## Princesisto (Sep 20, 2019)

@Aquilo, my friend:

Even with a PhD in a law-related subject of social science, I know that what is in the law and what is in practice are two different things: like what "should" be done and what "is" done in daily life. 

If you ever go to Asia or Africa and see how much in different worlds "law" and "reality" are, you will come back to the internet and never see any problem with people pinching lyrics on their websites again. In one publication, 35 years ago, I wrote about law in developing countries being "fantasy law". It's true in developed countries too but the difference is linear rather than exponential.

It's like I told the other poster: "should" you use other people's lyrics on your website without permission? No. "Can" you use other people's lyrics on your website without permission? Obviously, yes. It comes down to the Eastwood theorem: "Do ya feel lucky?".

What is the difference between what they do in their novels and what they do on their websites? A publisher who, like an inverted Kodi Lee, can say "Heck, nah!" about what he will publish in their novel. And when a publisher hears the word "copyright", as my main character, in her Manc-Scots _patois _said, "_he pishes his kecks_." Publishers never feel lucky.

Until they use *YOUR *lyrics on their websites without permission, don't worry about it. Chill out, Jack. If that happens you can pop 'round to the solicitor's office and see if it's worth your time and money going to the High Court about it.

"Real" advice! Word!


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## Aquilo (Sep 21, 2019)

Princesisto said:


> If you ever go to Asia or Africa and see how much in different worlds "law" and "reality" are, you will come back to the internet and never see any problem with people pinching lyrics on their websites again. In one publication, 35 years ago, I wrote about law in developing countries being "fantasy law". It's true in developed countries too but the difference is linear rather than exponential.



Oh lord... if it's law and politics on a grand scale, with the people who play bible and Social Contract with them, picking... choosing... going on genocide sprees and lining pockets to the theme of extremist bible picking and choosing, then yes -- this falls to the wayside!



> It's like I told the other poster: "should" you use other people's lyrics on your website without permission? No. "Can" you use other people's lyrics on your website without permission? Obviously, yes. It comes down to the Eastwood theorem: "Do ya feel lucky?".



Lol, nope. I don't. Sod's law I'd be the one to get the bullet, or more forget 'Russian roulette, load the full clip....' in my direction.



> What is the difference between what they do in their novels and what they do on their websites? A publisher who, like an inverted Kodi Lee, can say "Heck, nah!" about what he will publish in their novel. And when a publisher hears the word "copyright", as my main character, in her Manc-Scots _patois _said, "_he pishes his kecks_." Publishers never feel lucky.



Definitely. But better safe than... left crying up in the corner with no money! 



> Until they use *YOUR *lyrics on their websites without permission, don't worry about it. Chill out, Jack. If that happens you can pop 'round to the solicitor's office and see if it's worth your time and money going to the High Court about it.



The majority won't have the cash to, which is why publishers manage to run away with royalties and offer contracts that offer no fair termination rights for authors if the publisher falls behind on producing the work on time. If anything needed regulating better for rights and fair pay, it's trade publishing.

Wanna job?


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## Princesisto (Sep 22, 2019)

@Aquilo Speak to your MP about a job regulating. On this new issue you raise, I have always said what the writers need is a strong, tough cooperative like the New Zealand farmers used to have, that took them from most exploited to richest in the country.  P


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## Aquilo (Sep 23, 2019)

Princesisto said:


> @Aquilo Speak to your MP about a job regulating. On this new issue you raise, I have always said what the writers need is a strong, tough cooperative like the New Zealand farmers used to have, that took them from most exploited to richest in the country. P



I honestly don't know if it would do any good.  For instance, I'm UK and my publisher was US. Contracts state any court proceedings etc have to be in the state named on the contract, which is usually the US. So even when it comes to IP issues, I have to talk to an IP lawyer from that state and country (US). Don't even get me started on ITIN issues...


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## seigfried007 (Nov 1, 2019)

Was hoping someone might clarify this issue for me: Is it bad to mention a title and artist _within_ a work? 

Mostly because I think it might tickle Aquilo's fancy: MC's in a room with two former exotic dancers, one of whom he knows uses dancing as an avenue for self-expression and coping. Said character was feeling understandably overwhelmed and invoked "mystical-fucking-jazz-hands" ("mystical jazz hands" is his word for anything science/he can't explain). Then the MC started calling out other dance moves to egg this guy on--culminating in "VOGUE!" To his surprise, both of these men know that one. Later, the MC's wife asks "What's up with the Madonna?" Titled that chapter "Rhythm Is a Dancer" which should be fine 'cause it's a title (and fit so well!). 

What was even more fascinating to me is that the one dancer uses dancing as a coping mechanism, but the other found dancing to be a source of personal anguish--and so they helped each other out in terms of coping with stress and redeeming the art of dance itself. The especially funny/frustrating thing is that I keep sitting down to write a sex scene so I can move on with the bloody plot... and the characters keep doing this "development" thing instead.


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