# Between a rock and a hard place, or, Never Trust a Doctorâ€¦



## The Backward OX (Apr 5, 2011)

*Between a rock and a hard place, or, Never Trust a Doctor…*

…and the higher up the ladder they are, the less you trust them.

You’ll be tiring of my griping. But I want to share this with you. Here’s the latest on my health front.

I have cardiac arrhythmia. Irregular heartbeat, in other words. 

It can kill me. Rather than explain how and why, just take my word for it. 

Additionally, my heart was beating too fast.

So the cardiologist prescribed a drug designed to _regularise_ my heartbeat, didn’t he? I commenced taking it last night.

But that same drug also _slows_ my heartbeat.

The cardiologist knew I was already taking another drug to slow my heartbeat, which had been prescribed by my local doctor. We’d both told him, the doc in a referral letter and me by word of mouth. The drug’s called digitalis.

Overnight, my heartbeat had plummeted to the point where my heart had almost stopped.

Dead Man Walking. 

I phoned my local doc just now, and told him.

“Did the cardiologist know you were already taking digitalis?” he asked in what sounded to me very much like an unbelieving voice. Maybe it was just static on the phone line.

“Yes,” I replied.

“Stop taking that new drug IMMEDIATELY,” he said.

“So, what do I do about my irregular heartbeat?” I asked.

“Pray, and see me next week.”

Just kidding. He didn’t really say ‘Pray.’ But all the rest of it is true.


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## Foxee (Apr 5, 2011)

Criminy, Ox. Sounds like what you really need to do is survive your doctors' care.


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## Gumby (Apr 5, 2011)

This is the kind of thing that burns be about doctors. It's their job to check these things out, or ask the right questions. It almost feels like you have to have a medical degree simply to safely visit the doctor. I know we all need to be proactive and learn as much as we can about our medical conditions, but it takes time to research, and sometimes the patient hasn't had that time before they start prescribing medications. Many times I've had the pharmacist catch something like this that should have been caught by the doctor.


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## Foxee (Apr 5, 2011)

Makes you wonder if their malpractice insurance makes them careless.


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## Baron (Apr 5, 2011)

Foxee said:


> Criminy, Ox. Sounds like what you really need to do is survive your doctors' care.


 
It also looks like it'll take prayer to manage that.  Maybe someone's trying to tell you something, Edna.


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## Writ-with-Hand (Apr 5, 2011)

I have a love/hate relationship with doctors. Some of them can be arrogant as ____.

On the other hand I respect all of their education immensely and many of them are outstanding professionals.

I think some can be severely overworked at times.

But I'm reading this book right now, it's about world respected French cardiologist from Paris that made New York his home and place of practice. Apparently, from what I've read in the book, medical doctors have a rate of alcoholism *above* the national average. One doctor in the book even stated that many doctors that are alcoholics practice medicine on patients when they should have ceased (until recovery) a long time ago.

Not saying that is your case. But a cardiologist is highly skilled scientist and fairly brilliant. These are top shelf academic members. 

The End of My Addiction, Olivier Ameisen, (9781616793272) Hardcover - Barnes & Noble









> *Synopsis*
> 
> "After years of battling uncontrollable addiction, I have achieved the supposedly impossible: complete freedom from craving."
> 
> Dr.  Olivier Ameisen was a brilliant cardiologist on the staff at one of  America’s top teaching hospitals and running his own successful practice  when he developed a profound addiction to alcohol. He broke bones with  no memory of falling; he nearly lost his kidneys; he almost died from  massive seizures during acute withdrawal. He gave up his flourishing  practice and, fearing for his life, immersed himself in Alcoholics  Anonymous, rehab, therapy, and a variety of medications. Nothing worked.


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## Baron (Apr 5, 2011)

Writ-with-Hand said:


> I have a love/hate relationship with doctors. Some of them can be arrogant as ____.
> 
> On the other hand I respect all of their education immensely and many of them are outstanding professionals.
> 
> ...



I'm sure that's really encouraging, Writ.  I'll throw in an example of good medical practice to even the score:

[video=youtube;vf2i4OXkEEs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf2i4OXkEEs[/video]


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## TheFuhrer02 (Apr 5, 2011)

You have digitalis and yet you still have an arrhythmia? That's, er, intriguing.

Well, best of luck to you, Ox, and be patient to these doctors a little while longer (pun not intended). Sometimes, they can be a bit overbearing.


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## The Backward OX (Apr 5, 2011)

TheFuhrer02 said:


> You have digitalis and yet you still have an arrhythmia? That's, er, intriguing.
> 
> Well, best of luck to you, Ox, and be patient to these doctors a little while longer (pun not intended). Sometimes, they can be a bit overbearing.


 
The local guy is okay. I intend having a discussion with him about the digoxin/arrhythmia conundrum.


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## TheFuhrer02 (Apr 5, 2011)

^ Best of luck with that, then! :thumbl:


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## RoundEye (Apr 5, 2011)

If my farts smell funny, my doctor writes. I think he is trying to run the ink pen dry. So far he has written me 13 prescriptions. Of course I have MS, so I’m going to take a lot of meds. There’s no  cure, so you have to keep the symptoms under control.


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## Hawke (Apr 6, 2011)

You gotta love doctors. I particularly love when my own family doctor asks me to come back in a week and, when I do, he looks at my file, looks me in the face and says, "So what can I do for you?" 

Get better, OX. I'd say more, but you already know.


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## Candra H (Apr 6, 2011)

Second what Hawke said, about getting better. And maybe stop hoping your doctors know what they're doing...


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## garza (Apr 6, 2011)

All of this should bring into sharper focus why I have no interest in forming any sort of lasting relationship with a doctor. I've been treated a couple of times by doctors who could not speak a word of English and who openly disliked me because I have white skin and blue eyes. But they were competent professionals. They repaired what was broken and sent me on my way whole again. That's all I want a doctor to do.


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## KangTheMad (Apr 6, 2011)

Holy jeeze! Even I could figure taking two meds to slow a heartbeat is a bad idea. Remind me to never get medical care in Australia. If I break my leg, I'll tough it out untill I get to another country.


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## Writ-with-Hand (Apr 6, 2011)

garza said:


> All of this should bring into sharper focus why I have no interest in forming any sort of lasting relationship with a doctor. I*'ve been treated a couple of times by doctors who could not speak a word of English and who openly disliked me because I have white skin and blue eyes.* But they were competent professionals. They repaired what was broken and sent me on my way whole again. That's all I want a doctor to do.



:shock: %$#@. (expletive)

I doubt anyone in this thread would do much better than your average medical doctor or specialists like cardiologists. Especially given that some doctors are so overworked. These are also cats with a mountain of information to retain not to mention the need for constant reeducation and training as medical science and technology keeps pushing forward. 

The mistake the average person makes is to _*expect*_ that a doctor is supposed to know all things medically. It's impossible. No human can do it. Not one. And there has never been one. 

My last two biology exams I got the same score. Out of 33 multiple choice questions I scored approximately 67%. Those 33 questions (on each exam) were taken out of a sum of approximately 400 to 800 testable questions (in my mind) from 8 chapters respectively. Can one even fathom the amount of information a professional doctorate like an M.D. - let alone specialist within medicine - encompasses? And one is a medical doctor even if they pass their exams with C's (evidencing they did not perfectly understand or answer every exam question correctly).

Veterinarians are also very impressive. I'm not sure who I'm more impressed by... them or the M.D.'s.

Personally I'm very intrigued by and enamored with oral and maxilliofacial surgery and those that hold the dual degrees of D.D.S. and M.D. - but that extends not just from practicing medicine but goes into the field of surgery as well.

[video=youtube;3sbxVO9ZsCc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sbxVO9ZsCc&feature=related[/video]

*


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## Custard (Apr 6, 2011)

I think that there should be a seperate area made for all the health related problems that ox has!!


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## Writ-with-Hand (Apr 6, 2011)

Custard said:


> I think that there should be a seperate area made for all the health related problems that ox has!!



LMAO.


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## Candra H (Apr 6, 2011)

But the echoing silence when he...

Nope, sorry, cant actually say it. Ox will outlive us all, dammit!


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## ppsage (Apr 6, 2011)

My mom's been on multiple heart prescriptionss for probably two decades. It's always dicey when they adjust the meds, which apparently they need to do occasionally. Twice she's been transported, when she got too dizzy to stand. (Although she's former health care and so tries to be diligent, she can also be sometimes forgetful about taking the pills. This doesn't help. I'm pretty sure we've got her to remember never to take too many, trying to catch up.) When everything's working right, she has an extremely low heart rate, and pretty low blood pressure. She's also ninety-six years old. So, if it don't kill you? She is however always pretty much of a grump and cheapskate, but not necessarily increasingly, and lives alone, quite possibly necessarily.


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## Candra H (Apr 6, 2011)

I like the sound of your mum, ppsage. I hope she keeps doing well. I also live alone, absolutely necessarily.


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## garza (Apr 6, 2011)

Writ-with-Hand - I don't expect any doctor to know all things medical, but I do expect each of them to employ in proper fashion whatever knowledge they do have. The conflict between the instructions given by the two doctors involved with xO indicates that one of them, apparently the specialist, was _not_ using his knowledge properly. That's scary, because Australia is listed as a developed country and any doctor there ought to be paying better attention to his patient. 

As for having doctors I could not communicate with by spoken word and who really didn't like me, that underscores my point that only the doctor's intelligence, knowledge, medical skills, and professional attitude count.


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## JosephB (Apr 6, 2011)

garza said:


> As for having doctors I could not communicate with by spoken word and who really didn't like me, that underscores my point that only the doctor's intelligence, knowledge, medical skills, and professional attitude count.



Yes -- but there are plenty of doctors who possess all those qualities and skills -- plus they're good with people. And they're the best doctors.


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## TheFuhrer02 (Apr 6, 2011)

^ Agreed.


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## JosephB (Apr 6, 2011)

Yeah -- and it seems to me if you know the doctor doesn't like you based on his actions or attitude -- then he's not being very professional.


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## MJ Preston (Apr 6, 2011)

I feel for you Backward Ox. I used to have a Doctor who reached for the Rx pad every time I went to see him. 

One night I turned grey and my throat closed up, I didn't think I was going to live through the night. When I finally saw the Doc he reached for his trusty pad. I took it out of his hand tossed it onto his desk and demanded a full battery of tests. I was less than a year out of the combat arms then, so he he complied.

I dumped him after that and my mystery ailment turned out to be a severe allergic reaction to something that is still unknown.

Hang in there Ox and don't take any crap from anyone.


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## JosephB (Apr 6, 2011)

There are good doctors, bad doctors, mediocre doctors -- just like anything else. Medical school doesn't grant people with special powers. There is still a great deal of subjectivity to medicine, and in some respects all the tests and various treatments have made things even more complicated for doctors -- not easier.

While it's true that some doctors have a superiority complex -- it's also true that people allow themselves to be intimated by doctors. You have to be assertive with them and let them know you're the customer.

This is mostly on the subconscious level -- but  doctors, just like everyone else, react and feed off how you act toward them. If you're defensive or show you're wary, they'll sense that. People show a lot, body language, facial expressions etc. -- without even realizing it. Doctors are human beings too and on some level, will respond to how they're treated.

I've had two very intense experiences with doctors. My daughter was in ICU for 8 weeks. There was a whole team involved in her treatment. She had a rare disease and as a result was misdiagnosed several times. She also received treatment that was likely harmful. It was hard to take, and we were angry and hurt by some of it. Even so, the doctors were wonderful and compassionate -- and were truly sorry that they couldn't help. I'll never forget how one doctor hugged us and cried with us.

My dad has been in and out of the hospital since December. Dealing with many of the same issues as the OP. Again, we've been frustrated and angry at times. One doctor has turned out to be a real ass and definitely made things worse for a time. But overall, my dad's care has been good and the doctors have been helpful and compassionate. 

I'm not issuing some blanket defense to doctors -- some of them suck. But there are many good ones, and despite the prestige and financial rewards, I think most of them go into medicine because they want to help people -- which is a pretty good thing in my book.


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## Candra H (Apr 7, 2011)

Cant say it much plainer than that, Joe. People are people regardless of their career choice, education, training or life experience. And we're all fallible.

I'd never go to a doctor and expect them to treat me like a car, fix me up and send me trundling on without so much as a "How are you today?". I'd also much rather deal with a human being than a fictional TV character grumpy MD type. They might be fun to watch but they don't make the best doctors, as you've said yourself many times. 

It's the ones who know their job and also care about and show compassion for their patients who make the best doctors. 

I dunno. Seems a no-brainer to me. To steal from Writ, a mutual relationship of trust between medical professional and patient can only be psychologically beneficial.

Anyway, I hope you're doing okay today, Ox.


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## The Backward OX (Apr 7, 2011)

Candra H said:


> Anyway, I hope you're doing okay today, Ox.


Well, I've got a new idea for a story, if that's any indication.


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## The Backward OX (Apr 7, 2011)

> people allow themselves to be intimated by doctors.


These MDs must be the ones who finish up before a Medical Tribunal, and have their licences revoked


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## garza (Apr 7, 2011)

Candra H - If a doctor asks 'how are you today?' I'll take a second look at his diploma. 'I'm sick or hurt, that's how I am. That's why I'm here.'

Of the two doctors I mentioned who I know didn't like me because of who I was, one I never met, the other I met only briefly. 

The one I never met was in Africa. I'd had a stupid accident, my fault, ruptured my spleen, and had bled internally down to 50/0 when they got me on the table, jump started my heart, and started to cut. It was a male nurse who explained later that my Cuban trained surgeon blaimed everyone of European descent for all the problems in his country, and knowing the history of the region I had to admit he was justified. The fact that I was a U.S. citizen and he had become a loyal disciple of Fidel Castro while in medical school didn't help. The nurse explained that the surgeon took his work very seriously and repairing a broken body was what he did, no matter who the body belonged to.  

The other encounter with a hostile doctor was in Asia, and it was not his attitude that told me he didn't like me. He told me himself in very plain language. But like the African doctor he was a professional with personal and professional ethics that would not allow him to do any less than his best for an injured person. 

My body is a machine. When it breaks, or gets broken, I need a good mechanic to make repairs. If I want pleasant conversation I'll go to a pub, drink a pint, and chat up the young lady tending bar.


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## JosephB (Apr 7, 2011)

Garza, those scenarios don't apply to 99.99% of patient/doctor relationships -- and are pretty much irrelevant to any discussion on this topic. This isn't about pleasant conversation. It's about courtesy and a little empathy.  

We aren't machines. We're human beings -- and very often when people need to see a doctor, they're under a lot of stress -- and a little compassion and understanding goes a long way. A doctor who doesn't get that just isn't as good as one who does -- or even as good as one who can at least fake it. 

Get real, man. Make some effort to put yourself in the position of someone who's stressed out, facing a serious illness, afraid, maybe alone, or worried about a child, a loved one etc. Geez.


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## garza (Apr 7, 2011)

And to think all these years I've thought of some of my front-line encounters as being unnerving, downright stressful. My mistake. 

Be sure to pass that bit of wisdom on to the young and some not-so-young reporters on the front-line today in Afghanistan and Libya. They run all the risks of soldiers, but rarely get medals. They'll be glad to know there's no stress in what they do. 

As I read the OP it's about patient-doctor relationship. I want that relationship to be professional. A 'good morning' dosen't hurt, but neither does it help. I want the doc to patch me up and send me on my way. That's all.


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## JosephB (Apr 7, 2011)

What a load. This isn't about front line encounters. Interesting, I suppose -- but not relevant to this conversation. Again, those are extraordinary circumstance that don't have a damned thing to do with the OP or the vast majority of doctor/patient relationships. What you want or require based on your experience doesn't extend to everyone. Is that really so hard for you to grasp?


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## The Backward OX (Apr 7, 2011)

During my recent stay in hospital I was tended by both compassionate nurses and nurses who were just doing their job. They both gave me the same painkillers when I asked, etc, and at the end of the day I honestly cannot say that one or the other made my recovery faster or slower.


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## garza (Apr 7, 2011)

If they were competent and doing the job they were supposed to be doing, then It wouldn't make any difference.

Up until the time my appendix burst, followed quickly by a massive stroke and a bicycle accident that required back surgery, all my experiences with doctors had been in the field, so that's the only basis I have for judging how doctors ought to act. 

It has been my experience, in 56 years of reporting on the human condition, that all experiences are relevant. My experiences, yours, everyone's, have to go into the mix. We can't say that any one person's experiences do not bear on the question, for to do so says that we must establish an elite group whose experiences are valid, while the experiences of others are of no consequence. There is a lengthy chapter on this subject entitled 'Who Matters?' and another chapter on field medicine in Asia, Africa, and Central America entitled 'Cutting Under the Canvas' in my memoirs, already set up and due to be published once word reaches New York that I have gone to cry among the rain clouds.


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## The Backward OX (Apr 7, 2011)

What is it with elderly Americans - sorry, I just can't say YewEssians - and clouds? We had another member here, another elderly...Yank, adrianhayter, from New Mexico, and he once said, "We're just old men shouting at clouds."


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## garza (Apr 7, 2011)

The Maya believe that when we die, our soul goes first to cry among the rain clouds before we either are allowed to climb the great ceiba tree, Yaxché, that is the centre of the universe, or are cast down in the darkness around its roots.  

It's easy to say YewEssians. Just be careful of the pronunciation of the second syllable.


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## JosephB (Apr 8, 2011)

garza said:


> It has been my experience, in 56 years of reporting on the human condition, that all experiences are relevant.



You say that -- but it's clear you don't think that it's relevant how others might feel about this based on their experience. 

It's simple. The best doctors know medicine -- and they're good with people too. You're locked into this notion that it doesn't matter, but the vast majority would disagree with you, for reasons that seem to escape you. It doesn't seem like your "56 years of reporting the human condition" has given you enough insight to get out of your own head and consider how others might feel about this.


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## The Backward OX (Apr 8, 2011)

Joe, read my Post #35 and give it a rest.


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## JosephB (Apr 8, 2011)

Oh yes -- now I see. It didn't make any difference to you -- and of course, your experience applies to everyone else on the planet. So knowing that -- I'll give it a rest. Thanks so much.


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## Candra H (Apr 8, 2011)

Garza, you talk about wanting a professional relationship with a doctor. A doctor is someone who examines and fixes your body when you're sick. Being sick and a patient is stressful, and no I'm not saying more or less so than whoever doing whatever in any other situation across the globe. 

A sick patient going to see a doctor is stressed. Heightened stress levels can have an adverse physical and mental effect. Thats not going to help the existing medical condition, may even compound it, make the patient sicker. A doctor, whether they actually do care or not being irrelevant, who is aware of the emotional and physical stress involved in being sick, may work hard at making said patient feel comfortable, relaxed, and relevant. They may do this by asking how the patient is, and by so doing, get the patient to talk about their symptoms. By making the patient believe their doctor cares about them as a human being and understands their medical needs, the doctor is lowering the patient's stress levels. Thats what a good professional relationship is, and what is meant by saying a mutually respectful relationship between medical professional and patient is psychologically beneficial. 

It's a simple case of applying logic. Do you see?


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## Candra H (Apr 8, 2011)

The Backward OX said:


> Well, I've got a new idea for a story, if that's any indication.



Good news indeedy, Ox. Now all you need to do is write the elusive thing...


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## garza (Apr 9, 2011)

Candra H  - No, I don't. But let's let this horse rest in peace.


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## Writ-with-Hand (Apr 9, 2011)

I can see where different sides are coming from - from garza to Joe.

I've appreciated all inputs - that includes the polar opposites of Joe's and garza's.

One remembers their own child that was more than a mere machine and another is so battle experienced he easily dissociates with his own body. But his dissociation is not necessarily "wrong" or bad. Then again it might not be right or good.


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## Candra H (Apr 10, 2011)

> Candra H - No, I don't. But let's let this horse rest in peace.


 
Thats a shame, because I was just getting started...


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## Custard (Apr 10, 2011)

Isn't that horse, an ox??


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## Candra H (Apr 10, 2011)

Haha, thats a terrible joke, Custard. Terrible.


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## The Backward OX (Apr 10, 2011)

Candra, earlier today I spoke with a lady who recently underwent major surgery. She told me the surgeon was one of the top men in his field and she felt entirely confident placing her life literally in his hands. She also said this guy’s beside manner was atrocious. She made allowances, believing her life and her ultimate health were more important than whether or not the guy made her feel good. 

I guess, if you were sleeping with such a guy, unless he was loading you down with jewels and furs and your very own Ferrari or Porsche, the relationship might not last all that long. But when you only know such a guy on a superficial level and for such a short time, what does it matter how he comes across?


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## The Backward OX (Apr 10, 2011)

(thinks) maybe someone could start a thread on trade-offs in relationships :evil:


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## JosephB (Apr 10, 2011)

Oh, course -- if you had to make a choice, you'd choose the rude doctor with the knowledge and skill over a mediocre doctor with a good bedside manner. That's a no-brainer. The point is, there are doctors with both qualities. Lot's of them. They're just better doctors. With doctors like that, you don't need to make "allowances" -- and you really shouldn't have to.


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## Candra H (Apr 10, 2011)

Yep, and I think maybe others are misinterpreting what we're saying, Joe.

It's not about wanting the doctor to make you feel good for the niceness or pleasantness of it all. It's simply good medical practice to put your patients at their ease so you can get as much information to them and from them, and also have a comfortable body to operate on. 

Peoples' egos about not "needing" humanity in others because they're self-sufficient or have suitably hard veneers around them doesn't make the case for doctors not needing to show said humanity to the rest of the population. Like Joe said previously, get out of your own head and try looking at the world from a different angle once in a while. Awareness of the human condition also has to include the ability to see said condition from other humans' points of view. Take the blinkers off.

Sorry, Ox, that last was aimed more at the Garza's of the discussion than you. I see your position differently, because you don't actually have the ego syndrome others do.


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## JosephB (Apr 10, 2011)

Candra H said:


> It's not about wanting the doctor to make you feel good for the niceness or pleasantness of it all. It's simply good medical practice to put your patients at their ease so you can get as much information to them and from them, and also have a comfortable body to operate on.



I agree with that -- and that has a lot to do with it. But it's also about treating people with courtesy and respect. That really is something that should apply to any service or profession. 

In my experience, the doctors with the bad bedside manner are the one's with the biggest egos -- who are most self-important. They think they're so good, that they don't have to bother with being polite or courteous like the rest of us mere mortals. 

But really, an a**hole is an a**hole. I'm not going respect anyone with a bad attitude just because he has a medical degree. No one else gets a pass for treating customers poorly and neither should doctors. As long as people buy into the notion that good doctors shouldn't have to treat patients decently -- then certain doctors will feel OK about being jerks.


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## MEShammas (Apr 10, 2011)

Some doctors suck, some are good. In my experience the good ones are generally the ones who mostly went into medicine because they wanted to help people. One's who went in because of the prestige or the ability to rake in a fair amount of money are usually pretty ******.


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## Candra H (Apr 10, 2011)

JosephB said:


> I agree with that -- and that has a lot to do with it. But it's also about treating people with courtesy and respect. That really is something that should apply to any service or profession.
> 
> In my experience, the doctors with the bad bedside manner are the one's with the biggest egos -- who are most self-important. They think they're so good, that they don't have to bother with being polite or courteous like the rest of us mere mortals.
> 
> But really, an a**hole is an a**hole. I'm not going respect anyone with a bad attitude just because he has a medical degree. No one else gets a pass for treating customers poorly and neither should doctors. As long as people buy into the notion that good doctors shouldn't have to treat patients decently -- then certain doctors will feel OK about being jerks.



And I agree with you back. Heh, we could go round in mutual agreement circles for quite some time.

Mainly what I was doing was going for complete logic, no emotional clouding of the issue, so I could get my points across as clearly as possible. It seems a lot of people associate emotions with weakness and cant see past them to whats actually being said.


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## Writ-with-Hand (Apr 10, 2011)

Helicio said:


> Some doctors suck, some are good. In my experience the good ones are generally the ones who mostly went into medicine because they wanted to help people. *One's who went in because of the prestige or the ability to rake in a fair amount of money *are usually pretty ******.



:cry: That's why I would become a doctor.


[video=youtube;70o_F6Yo7ck]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70o_F6Yo7ck[/video]


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## caelum (Apr 11, 2011)

Why, Writ?  It's such an obvious career choice.  It's the grade-school cliche of what successful people do, right there with lawyer and to a lesser degree teacher.  Surely there are more imaginative ways to success.


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## garza (Apr 11, 2011)

Candra H - Okay, I'll offer one more bit. 

First let me say that my well-developed, 'cheerful self-appreciation' in the words of Asimov, has little, at least in my mind, to do with my attitude toward doctors. It has had much to do with the way I've chosen to spend my life. At 21 I was one of the immortal beings, immune to bullets and bombs, knowing that while I could be hurt I could not be killed. It wasn't until my stroke and the words of my doctor that the next one would be the end of me that I realised my immortality had faded along with my youth. 

Perhaps my experiences have, as Joe has pointed out, been far enough removed from the mainstream to cause me to view the whole question of doctor-patient relationship differently. I've had doctors patch me up in every conceivable venue, from open fields to bush-stick huts to modern fully-equipped clincs. The social amenities have never been an issue. 'Stop the bleeding, stitch me up, send me on my way' is all I want. Or give me some pills for the parasites and the malaria, and an extra blanket for the dengue. (You've never been cold until you've had break-bone fever.) 

But as I said earlier, all experiences have to go into the mix, both the ordinary and the not-so-ordinary. My attitude toward doctors suits my experience. Perhaps it does not suit the experience of others.


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## The Backward OX (Apr 11, 2011)

And if Joe thinks a field medic, or whatever you might call them, with bullets whizzing over his head, has any capacity whatsoever for bedside manner, then he's a bigger fool than I had previously believed. And he can take that any way he wishes.

Ask your gran'pa, Joe. When he was nursing a shot-up Liberator, or Flying Fortress, or whatever it was he flew, back to base, did he have any capacity to be supportive towards the 18-year old tail gunner who'd messed his pants in fright when an Me109 came howling towards him ten minutes earlier and was presently curled up in his turret crying like a baby?


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## JosephB (Apr 11, 2011)

The Backward OX said:


> And if Joe thinks a field medic, or whatever you might call them, with bullets whizzing over his head, has any capacity whatsoever for bedside manner, then he's a bigger fool than I had previously believed. And he can take that any way he wishes.



I don't think that. I never said that -- or even implied it. My point was, Garza seems to have formed his opinion on whether or not a bedside manner is of any value based on his experience in the field -- and that experience really doesn't apply to most people. He more or less agreed with me. That's not so hard to understand, is it OX? If you're struggling with it, then you might not want to throw the word "fool" around so easily.



The Backward OX said:


> Ask your gran'pa, Joe. When he was nursing a shot-up Liberator, or Flying Fortress, or whatever it was he flew, back to base, did he have any capacity to be supportive towards the 18-year old tail gunner who'd messed his pants in fright when an Me109 came howling towards him ten minutes earlier and was presently curled up in his turret crying like a baby?



Gosh, how did you know my grandfather was one of the very few pilot/doctors in the RCAF? Otherwise, your comment here would make absolutely no sense and be completely beside the point. BTW -- he flew a Halifax. And no Me109s -- he flew night missions, so a lot of flak instead.


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## Candra H (Apr 11, 2011)

Seconded.

Or maybe we should all treat every trip to the hospital as a field encounter and take the doctors' sh*t so they don't have to lower themselves to the level of ordinary humans and actually treat them as equals.


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## JosephB (Apr 11, 2011)

Keep in mind -- a problem with the old ticker can mean there's not enough oxygen getting to the brain.


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## Candra H (Apr 11, 2011)

Haha, good point. I should really learn to make more allowances.


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## The Backward OX (Apr 11, 2011)

JosephB said:


> Keep in mind -- a problem with the old ticker can mean there's not enough oxygen getting to the brain.


 






I hope you're not talkin' to me.


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## The Backward OX (Apr 12, 2011)

JosephB said:


> Gosh, how did you know my grandfather was one of the very few pilot/doctors in the RCAF? Otherwise, your comment here would make absolutely no sense and be completely beside the point.


 
Pilot/doctor or no, and solidarity with garza or no, I disagree with your rebuttal of the metaphor. A pilot’s primary objective in those circumstances was to bring his crew and what was left of his kite home, to fight another day, and that required a no-nonsense attitude, just like a field doctor’s main concern is to get the cannon fodder fighting again. The other stuff was left to the chaplains back on the ground. Why do you think women were (and still are) denied combat roles? Because, by and large, they waste too much time on hugs, that’s why.


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## JosephB (Apr 12, 2011)

The Backward OX said:


> Pilot/doctor or no, and solidarity with garza or no, I disagree with your rebuttal of the metaphor. A pilot’s primary objective in those circumstances was to bring his crew and what was left of his kite home, to fight another day, and that required a no-nonsense attitude, just like a field doctor’s main concern is to get the cannon fodder fighting again. The other stuff was left to the chaplains back on the ground. Why do you think women were (and still are) denied combat roles? Because, by and large, they waste too much time on hugs, that’s why.



Yes, OX, field doctors by necessity often must adopt a no-nonsense attitude. That's another no-brainer. But the conditions under which a field doctor must perform are completely different than that of your local physician in his office or at the hospital. And with the exception of Garza's take on it, that was the scenario under discussion. You weren't being treated on the battlefield were you? So, really, what a field doctor does isn't all that relevant to the topic of bedside manner. (Although, I'm betting some do show compassion, despite the circumstances. I think there's a lot of generalizing going on here.) So your pilot metaphor, which really isn't all that good to begin with, is completely beside the point.


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## Candra H (Apr 12, 2011)

Ox, why do you assume a no-nonsense attitude equates to a lack of common courtesy and decency of behaviour towards your fellow human? 




> Why do you think women were (and still are) denied combat roles? Because, by and large, they waste too much time on hugs, that’s why.


 
It's not about pretty hugs and sweet little kisses or any kind of socially constructed female versus male gender role ******** dreamed up by people too blinkered to recognise reality so falling back on generalisations for effect.

People are people and deserve decency from other people regardless of their situation, career, gender, or education. Why is that so difficult for some people to understand?


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## garza (Apr 12, 2011)

Come to think of it I did get a nice hug from a doctor once. She was Cuban.


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## Candra H (Apr 12, 2011)

Anyone who tried to hug me in a professional setting would get a...

Sorry, cant say it on Baron's new PG13 site.


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## garza (Apr 12, 2011)

She was nice. She it was who diagnosed my dengue and suggested ways of keeping warm. There's no cure. You have to fight it off. The dengue, I mean.


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## The Backward OX (Apr 12, 2011)

Way back in '68 I got a rather nice hug from a senior nurse in a darkened corridor. But Matron came along, caught us in flagrante delicto and having a good laugh, sent Nursie off on a bedpan-emptying errand and me back to bed. The frustrated old biddy got her own back next morning when she removed my haemorrhoidectomy-related stitches.


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