# Copyright before getting an agent?



## Elowan (Mar 5, 2013)

Just asking :apologetic:


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## shadowwalker (Mar 5, 2013)

In the US at least, copyright attaches as soon as you create it.


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## Lewdog (Mar 5, 2013)

shadowwalker said:


> In the US at least, copyright attaches as soon as you create it.



I didn't think that was true until it was registered with the writer's guild of America?


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## JosephB (Mar 5, 2013)

You have to hold your manuscript over your head, click your heels together three times and say, "I hereby declare that this work is copyright protected.” Then you have to mail a copy of it to yourself and bury it in the backyard. _Then_ you register it with the Writer's Guild of America.


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## Elowan (Mar 5, 2013)

shadowwalker said:


> In the US at least, copyright attaches as soon as you create it.



OK!   Forgot about that. Thnx for that heads up.


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## shadowwalker (Mar 5, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> I didn't think that was true until it was registered with the writer's guild of America?



Writer's guild? 

Hooo-kaaaay...


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## shadowwalker (Mar 5, 2013)

JosephB said:


> You have to hold your manuscript over your head, click your heals together three times and say, "I hereby declare that this work is copyright protected.” Then you have to mail a copy of it to yourself and bury it in the backyard. _Then_ you register it with the Writer's Guild of America.



Ah, see - that's what I was missing!


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## Lewdog (Mar 5, 2013)

shadowwalker said:


> Writer's guild?
> 
> Hooo-kaaaay...



Yes, it depends on what type of writing it is.

WGAW Registry


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## C.M. Aaron (Mar 5, 2013)

In America, you theoretically get a copyright as soon as you create it. As a practical matter, you must be able to prove that you created it before someone else did. That's why you mail a copy to yourself. Seal the package with tape to prove that the package was not opened after you sealed it. Then the post mark becomes a legal record of the date of your copyright.

C.M.


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## Lewdog (Mar 5, 2013)

C.M. Aaron said:


> In America, you theoretically get a copyright as soon as you create it. As a practical matter, you must be able to prove that you created it before someone else did. That's why you mail a copy to yourself. Seal the package with tape to prove that the package was not opened after you sealed it. Then the post mark becomes a legal record of the date of your copyright.
> 
> C.M.



Many publishers still will not even look at your work unless you have an agent or are a member of the WGA.


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## JosephB (Mar 5, 2013)

The whole mail yourself a copy in a sealed envelope has absolutely no basis in U.S. copyright law. It's a waste of time and postage.


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## shadowwalker (Mar 5, 2013)

In the US, mailing a copy to yourself doesn't mean anything legally. From U.S. Copyright Office - Copyright in General (FAQ)

"The practice of sending a copy of your own work to yourself is sometimes called a “poor man’s copyright.” There is no provision in the copyright law regarding any such type of protection, and it is not a substitute for registration. "

Registration gives you certain legal remedies in case of violation, and how much protection depends on when you file.

As to the WGA, just a note that that's not for novelists. That's for writers in television, movies, radio, etc. But yeah, many publishers won't accept unsolicited ms, so having an agent is necessary for those. Many indie publishers will work directly with authors, however, so be sure to check the submission guidelines first.


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## C.M. Aaron (Mar 6, 2013)

I'm always curious when people who want you to use their service say that there is no alternative. At any rate, my point remains the same: Having a copyright as soon as you create something is a wonderful idea, but you can't go into court merely saying that you created something on a certain date. You have to do something to establish your date of creation. By all means, register your work at the Copyright Office if you feel you need that protection.

I suspect the date of a copyright is a relatively minor legal detail in most copyright cases. Most of the legal arguing is over whether the second work is sufficiently similar or sufficiently different from the previously copyrighted work. That's an opinion question and will not be solved by registration or a poor man's copyright.       C.M.


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## movieman (Mar 6, 2013)

C.M. Aaron said:


> Having a copyright as soon as you create something is a wonderful idea, but you can't go into court merely saying that you created something on a certain date. You have to do something to establish your date of creation.



If your agent suddenly decides this is the best book they've ever seen and they're going to steal it to become the next J.K. Rowling, you take them to court and, for example, pile up dozens of earlier drafts of the story that show you spent a long time working on it. Evil Agent can't do the same, because if they could write great books that sell by the million they wouldn't be an agent.

But the reality is that no-one from a legitimate agency will steal your unpublished novel. Registering it may also annoy publishers because they might have to put 'Copyright 1997' on a novel published today after you've been sending it out for years.


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## shadowwalker (Mar 6, 2013)

C.M. Aaron said:


> I'm always curious when people who want you to use their service say that there is no alternative.



Um, the US Copyright Office is where you have to register your copyright if you want legal protection. It's not a 'service' - it's the government agency in charge of copyright registration. Which is why I used their site for the info.


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## Robdemanc (Mar 6, 2013)

If you use MS Word or any other word processing package you will have a date stamp for the files you create.  Just back them up regularly.  I have years old stuff on disc that is easily identifiable as the seed of my current WIP.


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## C.M. Aaron (Mar 6, 2013)

Movieman, what's the reluctance of dating something from when it was created or copyrighted as opposed to the actual date of publishing? If copyrights last for author's life plus seventy years, the date of copyright should not matter. It was an issue years ago before the law was changed to life plus seventy, but is it still an issue?

C.M.


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## movieman (Mar 7, 2013)

C.M. Aaron said:


> Movieman, what's the reluctance of dating something from when it was created or copyrighted as opposed to the actual date of publishing?



Because a reader picks up the book in a store, sees it says 'Copyright 1997' inside, and thinks 'oh, I thought this was a new book, but it must have been out for years' and puts it back.

I doubt it really has much effect on sales, but it's still weird.


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## Fin (Mar 7, 2013)

Robdemanc said:


> If you use MS Word or any other word processing package you will have a date stamp for the files you create.




Date stamp can be edited.

Also, unless it's changed from a year or two ago, if you change your date/time settings on your computer to read, say... March 7th, 2005, and then saved your word document with your computer's settings still changed, the stamp would read March 7th, 2005.


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## Terry D (Mar 7, 2013)

Fin said:


> Date stamp can be edited.
> 
> Also, unless it's changed from a year or two ago, if you change your date/time settings on your computer to read, say... March 7th, 2005, and then saved your word document with your computer's settings still changed, the stamp would read March 7th, 2005.



Perhaps, but it's just one of the bits of evidence.  Notes, drafts, rewrites, all that would prove the validity of the copyright.  This isn't a significant problem--just one most beginning writers fret about.


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## Robdemanc (Mar 8, 2013)

One foolproof way to do it would be to email the files to yourself or a friend and make them keep the email.  I would have thought that manipulating a file creation date would be traceable.


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## JosephB (Mar 8, 2013)

Or you could just not worry about it, given that the chances an agent would try to steal your fantastic novel are slim-to-none.


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## movieman (Mar 8, 2013)

Robdemanc said:


> One foolproof way to do it would be to email the files to yourself or a friend and make them keep the email.  I would have thought that manipulating a file creation date would be traceable.



That only works if you email it to a third-party site like Gmail and can drag a Google IT guy into court to verify that the logs on their server show the message was received at that time and wasn't faked later (faking the header date on an email is trivial).

I don't know if they still exist, but some years ago there were sites which would sign your files with a cryptographic signature that contained the date, so you could show you sent it that file on that date. Again, you'd still need to prove to the court that the signature date was trustworthy; some sites would publish a signature of the list of signatures signed that day/week/month to make forgery implausible.

But, as mentioned, even that is probably more effort than it's worth given the tiny odds of a legitimate agent stealing it.


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## Terry D (Mar 8, 2013)

movieman said:


> But, as mentioned, even that is probably more effort than it's worth given the tiny odds of a legitimate agent stealing it.



That's the take-away from this whole discussion; there's no need to do any mailing, copying to friends, or even registering.  Manuscript, or idea theft is not a problem.  Ideas can't be copyrighted anyway.


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## WriterJohnB (Mar 8, 2013)

I would also suggest that you not put (c)2013 (or any other year) on a manuscript that you're sending to an agent or a publisher. It's considered amateurish, I've been told.


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## Robdemanc (Mar 8, 2013)

movieman said:


> That only works if you email it to a third-party site like Gmail and can drag a Google IT guy into court to verify that the logs on their server show the message was received at that time and wasn't faked later (faking the header date on an email is trivial).
> 
> I don't know if they still exist, but some years ago there were sites which would sign your files with a cryptographic signature that contained the date, so you could show you sent it that file on that date. Again, you'd still need to prove to the court that the signature date was trustworthy; some sites would publish a signature of the list of signatures signed that day/week/month to make forgery implausible.
> 
> But, as mentioned, even that is probably more effort than it's worth given the tiny odds of a legitimate agent stealing it.



Forensic accountants spend time looking at meta-data on files, emails etc during audits and investigations.  I am sure they can trace when a file was actually created, or an email sent.  I reckon there is hidden data about files that no user would ever see.


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## Lewdog (Mar 8, 2013)

"Where's your home?" (c)2013

Every time you guys say that phrase or any type of language that paraphrases that phrase, you must have my written consent.


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