# FYI - Genre Fiction vs. What Genre is my Fiction?  List of Genres of Fiction.



## David Gordon Burke (Sep 19, 2013)

Someone posted about putting a label on their WIP and not knowing how to tell people what they were working on.  What Genre?  A dilemma.  Many people commented that Pidgeon-holing yourself into a style is bad.  

Then again, there is something called Genre Fiction and there are certain expectations / formulas / traditions that need to be followed.  That or expectations / formulas and traditions that one would need to be aware of if they wish to expand or bend the rules or break tradition.  Surely Joss Whedon was aware of the Standard Vampire story when he created "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and "Angel" and he knew which RULES he could break to give his story an original edge.  (stealing a little from the 60s Gothic series "Dark Shadows" along the way)  _Yes,  Vamp fans, I know about this stuff ad nauseum, I just don't write it!  
_Not only did Whedon create classic Television - he spawned a whole industry "The Paranormal Romance."  Name One Pre-Buffy before you hate me.

Another perennial example of working the elements is "The Witching Hour" by Anne Rice.  Wow.  Just about the best book I've read in the past few years and a classic example of "Gothic Horror."  (the sequels kind of fell flat but ....) 

So what are the genres and what are their norms?  
In seconds I found a comprehensive list of various Genres and Sub-Genres on Wiki and other sites.  
Having trouble classifying that WIP?  This is your last stop.

David Gordon Burke

THE LIST

Subsets of genres, known as common genres, have developed from the archetypes of genres in written expression. The common genres included in recommended Literature from kindergarten through Grade Twelve by the California Department of Education are defined as:

Drama – stories composed in verse or prose, usually for theatrical performance, where conflicts and emotion are expressed through dialogue and action
Fable – narration demonstrating a useful truth, especially in which animals speak as humans; legendary, supernatural tale
Fairy tale – story about fairies or other magical creatures, usually for children
Fantasy – fiction with strange or other worldly settings or characters; fiction which invites suspension of reality
Fiction narrative – literary works whose content is produced by the imagination and is not necessarily based on fact
Fiction in verse – full-length novels with plot, subplot(s), theme(s), major and minor characters, in which the narrative is presented in (usually blank) verse form
Folklore – the songs, stories, myths, and proverbs of a people or "folk" as handed down by word of mouth
Historical fiction – story with fictional characters and events in a historical setting
Horror – fiction in which events evoke a feeling of dread and sometimes fear in both the characters and the reader
Humor – Usually a fiction full of fun, fancy, and excitement, meant to entertain and sometimes cause intended laughter; but can be contained in all genres
Legend – story, sometimes of a national or folk hero, that has a basis in fact but also includes imaginative material
Mystery – fiction dealing with the solution of a crime or the unraveling of secrets
Mythology – legend or traditional narrative, often based in part on historical events, that reveals human behavior and natural phenomena by its symbolism; often pertaining to the actions of the gods
Poetry – verse and rhythmic writing with imagery that creates emotional responses
Realistic fiction – story that is true to life
Science fiction – story based on impact of actual, imagined, or potential science, usually set in the future or on other planets
Short story – fiction of such brevity that it supports no subplots
Tall tale – humorous story with blatant exaggerations, swaggering heroes who do the impossible with nonchalance

Some genres listed may reappear throughout the list, indicating cross-genre status. 

Absurdist fiction 
Literary nonsense
Adventure novel 
Epic
Imaginary voyage
Lost World
Men's adventure
Milesian tale
Picaresque novel (picaresco)
Robinsonade 
Apocalyptic robinsonade
Science fiction robinsonade
Sea story
Brit lit
Children's literature 
Young-adult fiction 
Light novel
Comic novel 
Black comedy
Parody
Romantic comedy
Satire 
Picaresque novel
Political satire
Education fiction 
Campus novel 
Campus murder mystery
School story
Varsity novel
Experimental fiction 
Antinovel
Ergodic literature
Erotic fiction 
Erotic romance
Picaresque novel (picaresco)
Women's erotica
Historical fiction 
Historical romance 
Metahistorical romance
Historical whodunnit
Holocaust novel
Plantation tradition
Prehistoric fiction
Regency novel 
Regency romance
Literary fiction
Mathematical fiction
Memoir 
Autobiographical novel
Bildungsroman
Slave narrative 
Contemporary slave narrative
Neo-slave narrative
Metafiction
Nonfiction novel 
Biographical novel 
Autobiographical novel 
Semi-autobiographical novel 
Occupational fiction 
Hollywood novel
Legal thriller
Medical fiction 
Medical romance
Musical fiction
Lab lit
Sports fiction
Philosophical fiction 
Existentialist fiction
Novel of ideas
Philosophical horror
Platonic Dialogues
Political fiction 
Political satire
Pulp fiction
Quantum fiction
Religious fiction 
Christian fiction 
Christian science fiction
Contemporary Christian fiction
Luciferian literature
Saga 
Family saga
Speculative fiction 
Science fiction 
Hard science fiction
Soft science fiction
Space opera
Military
Punk 
Cyberpunk 
Biopunk
Nanopunk
Postcyberpunk
Steampunk 
Clockpunk
Dieselpunk
Atompunk
Dystopian
Alternative universe 
Alternative history
Post-apocalyptic
Alien invasion
Scientific romance
Horror 
Gothic fiction 
Southern Gothic
Supernatural / Paranormal 
Ghost story
Monster literature 
Vampire fiction
Werewolf fiction
Cosmic (Lovecraftian)
Occult detective
Psychological
Erotic
Body horror 
Splatterpunk
Fantasy 
by Theme 
Comic fantasy
Dark fantasy
Contemporary fantasy
Heroic fantasy
Magic realism
Fantasy of manners
Mythic
Paranormal fantasy
Superhero fantasy
Sword and sorcery
By setting 
Epic / High fantasy
Low fantasy
Hard fantasy
Historical fantasy 
Prehistoric fantasy
Medieval fantasy
Wuxia
Urban fantasy 
Paranormal romance
Speculative cross-genre fiction 
Science fantasy 
Planetary romance 
Sword and planet
Dying Earth
Weird fiction
Suspense fiction 
Crime fiction
Detective fiction
Mystery fiction
Westerns
Women's fiction 
Class S
Femslash
Matron literature
Romance novel
Workplace tell-all
Tragedy 
Melodrama
Urban fiction
Thriller 
Conspiracy fiction
Legal thriller
Medical thriller
Political thriller 
Spy fiction
Psychological thriller
Techno-thriller
General cross-genre 
Historical romance
Juvenile fantasy
Paranormal romance
Romantic fantasy
Tragicomedy


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## voltigeur (Sep 19, 2013)

I have only given passive thought to genre.  My WIP is broadly Historical Fiction but will have a strong techno thriller aspect to it.  I use this only to describe to someone what I’m doing only because that is the language they understand. 

While writing I never think of fitting in a genre at all I just tell the story. I’m writing about the cold war and I have to keep battle scenes thrilling many times without a shot being fired.  That and making sure my characters are likeable and engaging I just don’t have time or energy to worry about the story neatly fitting a definition of genre.


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## David Gordon Burke (Sep 19, 2013)

voltigeur said:


> I have only given passive thought to genre.



I assume that by state you only give passive thought to genre one can assume that you DO take into consideration something relative to the genre.  
A good friend is the Owner / President of a company that middle mans for all kinds of properties; something like an agent.  His company will hear your 
pitch and decide if they want to take on your property, trying to get your script, book, film, comic etc. into the right hands.

So this guy comes in with the idea for a story about Zombies.  Long story short, the guy knew nothing about ANY movie, film, book, TV show etc. that had ever gone before.  As such, his story had no substance, no back ground no reason.  REJECTED.

Litmus test.  Challenge for anyone / everyone.  
Do you understand genres?  
Star Wars - Qualify it.  What genre is it?  

D.G.B.


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## Jeko (Sep 19, 2013)

Well, you successfully copied an article from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_literary_genres

That being so easily available, as you mentioned, why post it here?

As for the topic itself, I don't give my WIPs genres. I just don't. Other people can, and that'll probably help it. But writing it; I need to let it breathe.


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## voltigeur (Sep 19, 2013)

I agree with Cadence I don’t think “oh I have to write this way or that to fit a genre”. I just try to write a tight well thought out story that flows and is easy for the reader to follow.  My first to discussion about genre was 4 months into outlining and research before I had to describe the work to someone helping me with background research. 

My WIP spans the globe through 4 story lines. From the Whitehouse to the jungles of El Salvador and Nicaragua, From Beirut to the North Pacific I have too many things to think about a lot to make this a good story that can be published; fitting into a genre isn’t one of them. 

After learning how search engines work I’m not sure I want to fit into a single genre, the more tags that can be attached to a story the more traffic the book will get.  Frankly that is why the agent and publisher get a cut let them worry about that.  All I’m concerned with is making it compelling enough they will want to publish it.


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## David Gordon Burke (Sep 20, 2013)

Cadence said:


> Well, you successfully copied an article from Wikipedia:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_literary_genres
> That being so easily available, as you mentioned, why post it here?
> As for the topic itself, I don't give my WIPs genres. I just don't. Other people can, and that'll probably help it. But writing it; I need to let it breathe.



Actually, I posted from two wiki pages and reviewed about ten more to see if there were any other genres mentioned.  Took me about 40 minutes.  
Being new here, I am glad to see right out of the gate who is the spokesman for the entire forum as to what is or isn't usefull or appreciated info.  
Thank you gran poobah.

As for following the expectations of a particular genre - to each his own.  For anyone who realizes that you (often, sometimes) need to know the rules before you can break the rules - I'd recommend *Dean* *Koontz*, - *Writing Popular Fiction*.

Whether a writer consciously thinks about what genre of book he is writing or not, he is still writing a genre and as such there are expectations.  

The majority of the book talks about just this subject.  Seeing as WIKI has Mr. Koontz listed as the 17th most popular author of popular fiction, I'd say he has an idea what it's all about.  

Now I'm confused.  For the purposes of naming characters you recommend "Learn Some History" but for the purpose of genres it seat of your pants?  

Interesting.

D.G.B.


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## Jeko (Sep 20, 2013)

> Now I'm confused. For the purposes of naming characters you recommend "Learn Some History" but for the purpose of genres it seat of your pants?



A genre is not something you put into your story - it's something you or other people put around it, in order for it to fit in with publishing and modern society. The way I write, if I set up the 'fence' of where I can go before I start going anywhere I find myself severely restricted.



> Actually, I posted from two wiki pages and reviewed about ten more to see if there were any other genres mentioned. Took me about 40 minutes.



Not that I want to go on about this, but you can't pull the wool over anyone's eyes when it comes to what is recorded on the internet. I mean, the list you posted even includes the genre 'by theme', which is just part of the list on Wikipedia that they were using to divide their list more effectively. 

If you're claiming that you've compiled sources, you haven't. You even said at first that it took you seconds - why now has it taken forty minutes?

All I'm really saying is, please replace the list with a link to the list you copied. It means there's less to scroll through to get to the posts in this thread. And the Wiki page has links so that you can check what a genre is if you're interested in it.


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## David Gordon Burke (Sep 20, 2013)

Cadence said:


> A genre is not something you put into your story - it's something you or other people put around it, in order for it to fit in with publishing and modern society. The way I write, if I set up the 'fence' of where I can go before I start going anywhere I find myself severely restricted.
> 
> Not that I want to go on about this, but you can't pull the wool over anyone's eyes when it comes to what is recorded on the internet. I mean, the list you posted even includes the genre 'by theme', which is just part of the list on Wikipedia that they were using to divide their list more effectively.
> 
> ...



Oye, with all due respect - I've been here a week and hardly know the rules here.  Every post I make you troll, pick apart and generally contribute a bad vibe.  Do you treat eveyone this way or am I just special?  
Yes,  I said I SEARCHED for various sites in seconds.  The post is TWO wiki pages, didn't try to pull the wool over anyone's eyes.  For another 40 min. aprox. I read various other sites that didn't add anything to the WIKI info and as such posted as is.  Wasn't aware that a link was prefered compared to copy paste. (is that your personal preference or are you speaking as Monitor of the site?) Doubt much that this qualifies as plagiarism anyway - free info given for free and not claimed to be original work is hardly the definition of plagiarism.  

Nice welcome for new members.  
This is boring.  I've got a novel to write.
D.G.B.


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## Terry D (Sep 20, 2013)

Please get this thread back on-topic.


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## Gavrushka (Sep 20, 2013)

I must admit, I tend to just write and let others assign a label. If I were to send to an agent, I'd make sure the work I was sending fell into the broad category that appealed to them. - I'd suggest the list in the original post was so extensive as to become meaningless, especially when you consider many works could be mixed genre!

I would guess if you're going to vanity publish (I hope that does not come across as a derogatory term*) then I guess you'd have to put your own label on it.


*Is there are better term? Self-publication sounds a little incestuous!


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## David Gordon Burke (Sep 20, 2013)

The following charts are part of my original reasoning for posting this in the first place.  The point is that while one might wish to hit with an obscure genre, the chances with a Romance or Mystery that roughly follows expectations for the genre might have a better chance with either Ebook buyers or Agents.  
The balancing act is obviously the fact that EVERY other writer knows this and they are all trying to get into that little corner of fiction - Romance / Mystery etc.
The Vampire Novel / Paranormal Romance.  Whole rainforests have been decimated publishing this style in the wake of Twilight.  So do you jump into the competition to be the next big thing in an already overcrowded genre or do you stay out of it?  

As I mentioned earlier - I don't like labels  from the point of view of marketing.  From the point of view of writing, well, My best wishes to those people who can invent a genre to suit their book, ignoring all previous norms and still go on to sell a ton of books.  Wish I could name one book that ever did that!

Ebook sales percentages by category.  (I assume the generally accepted rules for re-publishing non-original graphics apply here - this is someone else's work - no plagiarism intended) 
D.G.B.


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## Gavrushka (Sep 20, 2013)

I must have misunderstood you. I'd thought you were asking the writers on this forum whether they assigned a genre to their WIP, and I answered as I interpreted your question. - You've now produced a market analysis, by genre, of published authors.

I doubt anyone here is naive enough to believe they'd take the additional step of commercial publication without assigning a genre to their work.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Sep 20, 2013)

David Gordon Burke said:


> View attachment 5032



Guess it's time to reinvent my sci-fi novel as a paranormal romantic thriller.  With mysteries!


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## David Gordon Burke (Sep 20, 2013)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> Guess it's time to reinvent my sci-fi novel as a paranormal romantic thriller. With mysteries!



That line in and of itself is quotable.  Kind of my point.  Which genres are mixable.  Just cause it's a sci - fi thing, what subgrenre is it? Post Apocalypse?  Distopian? Mystery?  War? Action?  Could be any of those things.
A Western?  could be a bunch of things.

That kind of was my point.  
D.G.B.


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## Jeko (Sep 20, 2013)

> That line in and of itself is quotable. Kind of my point. Which genres are mixable. Just cause it's a sci - fi thing, what subgrenre is it? Post Apocalypse? Distopian? Mystery? War? Action? Could be any of those things.
> A Western? could be a bunch of things.
> 
> That kind of was my point.



Ah, I see. As someone's who's never finished a novel, I don't often see things in the eyes of people who have finished novels.

Yes - if you put your story into the world without a genre, people will likely go 'eh?' and move on.


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## Morkonan (Sep 21, 2013)

I want to point out something: "Genre" isn't everything.

In fact, there's a much broader aspect to novels that is more influential, yet harder to quantify, than genre: Theme.

For instance, in Science-Fiction/Fantasy/Urban Fantasy/ETC, I've noticed that the Female Protagonist theme has really blossomed. We can call that the "Strong Female Lead." It's no surprise why Strong Female Leads are so appealing - Lots of women read books. But, there's also a growing female readership in the non-literary fiction market, these days. IOW - Girls are reading! It's not just teenage boys that are scarfing up Science Fiction or Fantasy pieces. Girls are getting introduced to these sorts of genres through their consumption of YA Paranormal Romance books... (It's sad, but true.)

Now, YA Paranormal Romance is sort of a specific genre and, in my opinion, entirely distasteful. (I just don't like dumbing down Romeo and Juliet like that.) But, one can pay attention to the general themes that are making a hit across various genres and capitalize on it, if one is fast enough. Simply knowing what genres are selling does nothing. It's "what" is selling that is important.

And, that's the key to taking advantage of any fad, isn't it? Fads are not planned, they just sort of happen. Nobody dumped a bajillion dollars into marketing Twilight et al without being assured that they would catch the wave that was already building on the bookshelf, did they? No, "Fads" are not created and Fad Publishing is all about timing. That timing doesn't depend on knowing the popular genres, but understanding the "Themes" that are currently building in popularity.

For clarification, think about this: In times of strife and hardship, what sort of stories sell well? Why, those of characters that endure and overcome strife and hardship, right? Or, maybe even characters who are free of both and live in the lap of luxury, just so the Reader can escape from their own troubles for awhile. It doesn't matter what the genre is, here. It's the Theme that's important. Now, if you can capitalize on the attractiveness a certain Genre has due to blockbuster titles and incorporate the Themes that are getting the most attention, you might have a great Breakout novel. If a Blockbuster attracts readers to Urban Fantasy and you can emulate its theme, maybe your tagalong book will be successful.

Grab a list of current bestsellers in the newly published novels (NOT reprints) and examine their themes. I bet you'll find some strong correlations, regardless of their differences in specific genres. (Though, Demographics is an important subset, here, and it must be accounted for as well. Little old ladies don't buy a lot of YA Paranormal Romance and may not even buy it for their grand-kids.)


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## Kyle R (Sep 21, 2013)

Morkonan said:
			
		

> Girls are getting introduced to these sorts of genres through their consumption of YA Paranormal Romance books... (It's sad, but true.)
> 
> Now, YA Paranormal Romance is sort of a specific genre and, in my opinion, entirely distasteful. (I just don't like dumbing down Romeo and Juliet like that.)



What's wrong with YA Paranormal Romance?

Not all YAPRs are a rehashes of _Romeo and Juliet_.

Isaac Marion's _Warm Bodies_, for example, was more of an homage to _Romeo and Juliet_ (including it's own zombie-fied balcony scene). I thought it was very intelligently written.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Sep 22, 2013)

KyleColorado said:


> What's wrong with YA Paranormal Romance?
> 
> Not all YAPRs are a rehashes of _Romeo and Juliet_.
> 
> Isaac Marion's _Warm Bodies_, for example, was more of an homage to _Romeo and Juliet_ (including it's own zombie-fied balcony scene). I thought it was very intelligently written.



For the unenlightened, can you explain the qualitative difference between an homage and a rehash? It sounds darn near identical to me, and I'm not sure the example you gave helps your point (or rather, helps disproves Morkonan's point) one bit.


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## Kyle R (Sep 22, 2013)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> For the unenlightened, can you explain the qualitative difference between an homage and a rehash? It sounds darn near identical to me, and I'm not sure the example you gave helps your point (or rather, helps disproves Morkonan's point) one bit.



A _rehash_ is, in the way I use the term, a knock-off of the original, without adding anything of improvement or really anything different. Kind of like "ripping off" an idea to steal it and use it as your own. Similar to the low-budget movies that try to copy popular Hollywood movies (making a movie about cloning dinosaurs and putting them in a theme park, with disastrous results, for example, and calling it _Prehistoric Park_ instead of _Jurassic Park_, would fit my definition of a "rehash"). The Sci-Fi Channel does this sometimes with successful monster movies.

An _homage_ is done out of respect, to celebrate the original idea and pay tribute to it in a unique way. Similar to how Quentin Tarantino's _Kill Bill_ was an homage to martial-arts cinema, as Uma Thurman wore a one-piece yellow jumpsuit just like how Bruce Lee wore in _Game of Death_. The similarities are meant to be noticed, are meant to be appreciated and/or admired.

I mentioned _Warm Bodies_ because it was written _as_ an homage to _Romeo and Juliet_ (the main characters are named "R" and "Julie", just in case the reader missed the author's intentions). The balcony scene was there for the same reasons, to celebrate the original scene, while giving it a new slant. The unique twist given to it is that it's a post-apocalyptic zombie novel, thus, not a rehash. :encouragement:

I also mentioned it because it's the only YAPR I can think of that is clearly related to _Romeo and Juliet_, at least the only one I've read. 

I thought it strange of Morkonan to classify all YAPR novels as "dumbed-down" versions of _Romeo and Juliet_. It seems akin to saying all Horror novels are "dumbed-down" versions of _Frankenstein_, all Fantasy novels are "dumbed-down" versions of _Gulliver's Travels_, or all Sci-Fi novels are "dumbed-down" versions of _Somnium_.

Granted, my interest was piqued mostly because my WIP falls into the _Paranormal Romance_ category, while toeing the line between _Adult _and _Young Adult_, and there's nothing in my story that resembles _Romeo and Juliet_ in the slightest. So I found the blanket-comparison a little strange.

Not really offensive or insulting. Mostly, it just left me confused. What does _YAPR_ have to do with lovers from feuding families?


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## David Gordon Burke (Sep 23, 2013)

After a bit of a rocky start, this thread seems to be getting interesting.  A few points:
People have discussed theme as something you assign to your story.  A real chicken or the egg scenario.  I suppose if you are way out in left field doing sci-fi / Vampire / Paranormal and absolutely nothing you are writing is in the real world that could be a possibility.  For the other 80% of possible stories, the genre tends to go with the subject matter.  The idea sets it up.  

As for theme - with all due respect, a theme is not the kind of character that is popular at any given moment.  In my current WIP I explore various concepts that are never addressed head on - Faith, Greed, the destruction of society through the oppression of the poor by the rich, crime doesn't pay, etc.  These are the themes that are never mentioned but work as a motor - the big WHY as in why am I writing about this.  

Getting off that topic a little, to answer the question "what is wrong with Paranoral Romance" I'd have to say EVERYTHING, especially for the non-published author.  Not to dump on anyone's dreams but if you aren't published yet, the fad is going to have moved on by the time you have perfected your craft and you will have to find something new to write about.  What that entails is delving into a whole new style (genre) learning the ins and outs, what goes, what doesn't go, what the reader will and will accept, how far they will stretch their suspension of belief and overall, starting from day ONE.  

If I were to jump into the realm of Vampire novels, I'd go back to the beginning, long before Vampires were cute and cuddly puppy dogs in love, cut the romance out of it and put the FANG back in the genre.  Fads are great if you are riding the wave, but they suck if you are just dog paddling in the back wash.  

Now, way off topic - I read a lot here about the Sci-fi and Paranormal Romance genres and to each his own BUT ... IMHO if you are being influenced in any way by what is trendy on TV and in the Movies, you are doing yourself a great disservice as a writer.  I generally stay away from any TV that is even remotely similar to my genre and Movies?  Other than the Hobbit I haven't seen a movie in years.  A complete waste of time.  Today's movies are all special effects and no story - like watching a video game.  

Happy Monday.  Have a good week.  

David Gordon Burke


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## Kyle R (Sep 23, 2013)

Hi David. I agree, this is an interesting discussion. I like your passion about the subject. I do, however, feel you're operating with some assumptions here.

When you point to an aspect of vampire fiction you'd avoid, such as "cute, cuddly puppy dogs in love," I assume you're referring to _Twilight_. _Twilight_ is just a single author's work in the entire realm of YAPR. I'm sure YAPR authors, as well as authors of vampire stories, get tired of having their writing casually lumped together with _Twilight_, just as how Fantasy authors would tire of having their work lumped together with _Game of Thrones_.

I'm not sure what compels people to assume that a story in a genre automatically relates to some best-seller in that genre. More often than not, there are no similarities at all, with the exception of the staple characteristics of the genre.

I'm also curious as to why you would choose to cut Romance out of a Paranormal story. Considering your emphasis on market numbers and sales figures, it seems strange that you'd decide to remove the one element (Romance) that would put the story into the highest-selling genre of all fiction.

Romance, after all, is king. Readers _love_ romance.

Unless, that is, you believe Romance is a fad that will die off. In which case, I disagree, but it'd be interesting to discuss why you think that, if you do.


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## David Gordon Burke (Sep 23, 2013)

I'm going to go out on a limb here and Guess (no offense intended but....) I'd say you are 30 years of age or under.  The phenomenon of Paranormal Romance is is a relatively new thing.  It is intrinsically ANTI-EVERYTHING that is Classic Vampire LORE.  Prove me wrong if you can but....before Joss Whedon's "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"  I had never heard of or seen ANY Vampire, Werewolf, Creepy Creature movie, book, TV series with the exception of the 60s gothic soap opera "Dark Shadows" that had a Demonic creature in Love theme.  Yes there were romance elements but they weren't central to the HORROR theme.  
Then Stephanie Meyer completely plagiarised Whedon and Twilight became the limp noodle sage of the century.  She created literature (sic!) for Bieber fans.  I don't see a huge distinction between one Vampire author and another these days.  

For real vampire fiction, read Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles and leave the girly stuff for the 12 year olds.  

It might be worth noting that in the follow up to the Buffy TV series, Whedon took his characters to Dark Horse comics.  His villian's name?  Twilight.  40 some issues later we discover that the identity of the Twilight villian is .... ANGEL ... the character Stephanie Meyers ripped off.  Whedon's not so subtle message?  
Angel is Twilight - Twilight is Angel.  

You might notice I have a slight passion for the topic that is unrelated to my ambitions in writing.  I have been a fan of Buffy since season 1 and was first of all disgusted that the younger generation accepted such a half baked, refried version and obvious rip off of a television classic.  Buffy is to Vampires what Star Trek is to Sci-fi.  Add to that the wet noodle plotting (we go through 5 movies, thousands and thousands of pages that leads up to a big confrontation and then......THEY DON'T FIGHT IT OUT?  THEY SETTLE IT WITH NEGOTIATION???  How bloody dull is that?  (I read them all, saw the first three twilight movies....still regret having wasted my time....I mean how many times can Bella fall down???)

On the up side, if prose like that can sell millions, any of us here could be big stars before the end of the week.  If it's me I'll be sending out invitations to all forum members for a major bash at my new Villa in Cancun.  All are invited.  

As a final note - my posting of the info relative to genre sales wasn't to show WHICH genres sell (although that is part of it) but rather as a way to prove my original premise that in order to fit into these higher selling genres, a writer must in his own way original way, conform to the norms of those genres.  You might pick a 1% genre but if you don't please the typical reader of that genre ... there is no chance for sucess.  

David Gordon Burke

- - - Updated - - -

I'm going to go out on a limb here and Guess (no offense intended but....) I'd say you are 30 years of age or under.  The phenomenon of Paranormal Romance is is a relatively new thing.  It is intrinsically ANTI-EVERYTHING that is Classic Vampire LORE.  Prove me wrong if you can but....before Joss Whedon's "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"  I had never heard of or seen ANY Vampire, Werewolf, Creepy Creature movie, book, TV series with the exception of the 60s gothic soap opera "Dark Shadows" that had a Demonic creature in Love theme.  Yes there were romance elements but they weren't central to the HORROR theme.  
Then Stephanie Meyer completely plagiarised Whedon and Twilight became the limp noodle sage of the century.  She created literature (sic!) for Bieber fans.  I don't see a huge distinction between one Vampire author and another these days.  

For real vampire fiction, read Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles and leave the girly stuff for the 12 year olds.  

It might be worth noting that in the follow up to the Buffy TV series, Whedon took his characters to Dark Horse comics.  His villian's name?  Twilight.  40 some issues later we discover that the identity of the Twilight villian is .... ANGEL ... the character Stephanie Meyers ripped off.  Whedon's not so subtle message?  
Angel is Twilight - Twilight is Angel.  

You might notice I have a slight passion for the topic that is unrelated to my ambitions in writing.  I have been a fan of Buffy since season 1 and was first of all disgusted that the younger generation accepted such a half baked, refried version and obvious rip off of a television classic.  Buffy is to Vampires what Star Trek is to Sci-fi.  Add to that the wet noodle plotting (we go through 5 movies, thousands and thousands of pages that leads up to a big confrontation and then......THEY DON'T FIGHT IT OUT?  THEY SETTLE IT WITH NEGOTIATION???  How bloody dull is that?  (I read them all, saw the first three twilight movies....still regret having wasted my time....I mean how many times can Bella fall down???)

On the up side, if prose like that can sell millions, any of us here could be big stars before the end of the week.  If it's me I'll be sending out invitations to all forum members for a major bash at my new Villa in Cancun.  All are invited.  

As a final note - my posting of the info relative to genre sales wasn't to show WHICH genres sell (although that is part of it) but rather as a way to prove my original premise that in order to fit into these higher selling genres, a writer must in his own way original way, conform to the norms of those genres.  You might pick a 1% genre but if you don't please the typical reader of that genre ... there is no chance for sucess.  

David Gordon Burke


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## Myers (Sep 23, 2013)

None of that has much to do with Kyle's first point; which is that paranormal is a very broad category that can include a lot subject matter other than vampires, and vampire doesn't automatically mean a treatment similar to Twilight.


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## David Gordon Burke (Sep 23, 2013)

Myers said:


> None of that has much to do with Kyle's first point; which is that paranormal is a very broad category that can include a lot subject matter other than vampires, and vampire doesn't automatically mean a treatment similar to Twilight.



That would be relative to a person's particular point of view.  If it's a demon of some kind and there is a love story, I just see refried Twilight.  

I searched "paranormal fiction books similar to Twilight."
I got tons of hits with numerous books that all looked Twilighty to me.  

I love it.  I join a blues guitar forum and end up arguing with a bunch of Stevie Ray Vaughn clones.  
I'm not going to argue with proponents for Twilight type series.  My last word, as was my last word on the blues guitar issue is "If it's not your own original idea, it's manure and no one is going to buy it."  

That said, I can easily see how someone could jam on the Twilight groove and come up with Hunger Games which is definitley the same market and demographic and (aside from being much better prose) was a very cool idea.  I try to do the same.  My market would be the people who read or saw the movie "Marley and Me" or those people who enjoy "The Dog Whisperer" TV show.  It's a market, that's where the similarity ends.  

"No, you don't understand, Twilight is about this young high school girl that is in love with a Vampire.  My novel is nothing like that.  Mine is about this young high school girl that is in love with a ZOMBIE."  Oh, please.  

David Gordon Burke
PS.  No offense intended here to anyone in the midst of writing a torrid page turner in this genre.  Take it as a challenge, as if I am the Literary Agent that you are selling your book to.  Assume that most of them are going to have the same attitude that I have so, unless you can convince the guy that your book is actually different... well... why would he invest in printing it?  (unless you already sold 1,000,000 copies via the internet that is)


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## Myers (Sep 23, 2013)

Was Twilight the first YAPR novel ever? I don’t think it was.

As far as I know, genre fiction is all about using certain conventions and story elements, some that have been used countless times. That’s what people who read those genres expect. So it’s more likely that you have to convince an agent that it’s just different _enough._ That’s pretty much the same obstacle every writer faces, regardless of the genre.



David Gordon Burke said:


> I searched "paranormal fiction books similar to Twilight."
> I got tons of hits with numerous books that all looked Twilighty to me.



I would have guessed that if you searched "paranormal fiction books similar to Twilight" you'd find books similar to Twilight. Good job.


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## Kyle R (Sep 23, 2013)

David said:
			
		

> If it's a demon of some kind and there is a love story, I just see refried Twilight.
> 
> . . .
> 
> ...



Again with _Twilight_. 

There is more to fiction than Edward and Bella. I'm sorry you feel anything with Supernatural elements in it, as well as Romance, automatically becomes another Stephenie Meyer story. I find that unfortunate. 

There are, surprisingly enough, authors of PR who write original, engaging fiction, with unique, compelling characters. Authors who have been around before Meyer, and authors who have come around since her. Her stories do not define the genre—she simply wrote within it.

To lambast all other authors in a genre, because of a single author's work, seems a bit unfair, to me.

Luckily, we're all free to read and write the types of fiction we most enjoy. Sometimes, exploring biases can lead to unexpected discoveries. Sometimes not. As long as reading and writing continues, all will be right with the world.

Genre-fiction authors will continue to write their own works, regardless of any misconceptions and prejudices. They are, after all, like Myers pointed out, writing for the readers who _do_ enjoy, and expect, particular elements in their stories.

I say write what you love to write. Read what you love to read. Unless your tastes are truly bizarre, you'll likely have an audience, and peers who share your tastes. :encouragement:


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## Myers (Sep 23, 2013)

Yeah, enough with the _Twilight_. It’s an anomaly. It’s like trying to discuss the casual footwear industry and comparing everything to Crocs.


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## Jeko (Sep 23, 2013)

I would point out that the nature of Twilight is to trap both teenagers into its story and writers into talking about it. Same with Fifty Shades, sans the teenagers (I hope). Hence why I think the best service we as writers can do for these books is not talk about them at all. That way, we help them slowly die.  

For an alternative, Stephen Cole's books about werewolves offer dark and neatly written stories that play on multiple themes, including those surrounding romance. He wrote a trilogy that starts with 'Wounded', a book which entertained me for several nights. It stands as a good example of a genre that is, as David stresses, plagued with crap.


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## David Gordon Burke (Sep 23, 2013)

Bottom line - You couldn't be more correct. It is unfair to lump all of this psuedo-genre into one Twilightcentric prejudice.  Sadly, that's what happens whenever one thing becomes the big thing.  And the best of the best rarely rises like the cream, to the top.  
The last time I was in a book store outside of Mexico it was a shrine to this genre.  I wasn't about to poke through 1000 titles to try to figure out which one was the real deal so ....... next.  

As someone entering the writing world (or any other creative endeavour) one must ask if travelling well worn paths or trail blaziing is the best way to go.  

Metaphorically speaking, I bet Cancun was a hell of a lot sexier when only 1000 people world-wide knew about it - long before the tourists and the hotels.

David Gordon Burke


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## Myers (Sep 23, 2013)

Kind of like what Yogi Berra said: "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded."


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## DarkVamp9401 (Sep 23, 2013)

I just love this thread topic, so useful 

My WIP is a science-fiction (set in the future with futuristic technology), paranormal fantasy (won't go into too many details, but it has "ghosts"), alien invasion with horror and thriller...yeah quite a mixture. Its inspired by things i loved to play and watch growing up. Its got elements of Demolition Man, Fifth Element, a little Star Wars, Big Trouble in Little China (with a "normal" male protagonist), Independence Day and Blade Runner (mainly with city environment). Also video games helped too, mainly the 2001 Duke Nukem Forever trailer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDlB2P1leRM im sort of going for this epic scope for it, though with a storyline that people will want to care about and read.


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