# Tips for creating a rational magic system



## Stormcat (Apr 2, 2018)

I'm writing a story with magical beings in it. Usually, I just write fanfiction where there is already a rational magic system in place, but this time, I have to make a brand new one all on my own.

So, I need a little help setting up the basics. The going explanation for this system is that the users are simply utilizing the ambient energy around them to accomplish amazing feats. The only thing I remember from High School physics class is that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed. Other than that, I have no idea where to go. Any advice?

*EDIT:* The "Magic" in this system has nothing whatsoever to do with the supernatural. It is just being used as an explanation as to how my characters are able to accomplish amazing feats that a normal human is incapable of. It is magic in name only.


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## senecaone (Apr 2, 2018)

this one is hard. You are addressing the basic differences between "hard science fiction" and "fantasy". I've studied this genre for my whole life. Best advice I can give is to study past masters. The "ambient energy" bit? The Force in star wars. Asimov's living galaxies. Many others. 

I wish I could help you more. It's a very deep rabbit hole, Alice.


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## K.S. Crooks (Apr 2, 2018)

For any type of special abilities, whether you call it magic, super powers or something else, it is important for the author to know which characters can obtain the powers, how they get them, can the powers be taken away, what are the limitations of the magic/powers and what can other characters do to defeat the people with these abilities. 
Know what you want your characters to be able to do and their goals. Consider the obstacles you want them to face. The more powerful you make the magic/powers the more important the ways to counter them. It is all about being able to defeat people with powers. Whether they are being used for good or evil, otherwise the person with them always wins, which means a boring story.

The use of magic in a story is a wonderful tool to take the reader out of our reality and make the impossible happen. It can also be a detriment when made too powerful. If magic can solve most situations, as a writer you will find it difficult to create scenarios and obstacles that challenge your characters. This is the reason magic must have limits and costs.
Two common ways this is done is for there to be a mental or physical cost to using magic. It could be the more powerful the spell the physically weaker the person becomes- to the point where they either can no longer walk, use their senses, stay conscious or even death. A mental cost could be their ability to remember information, think to solve further problems or even become open to suggestion and made to work for their enemy.
These set backs could dissipate with time, but until then the character is vulnerable. It adds concern to the characters and the reader for whether the magic should be used and if it is, what may happen. The level of toll each type of spell takes would be for you to decide.


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## Stormcat (Apr 2, 2018)

K.S. Crooks said:


> For any type of special abilities, whether you call it magic, super powers or something else, it is important for the author to know which characters can obtain the powers, how they get them, can the powers be taken away, what are the limitations of the magic/powers and what can other characters do to defeat the people with these abilities.
> Know what you want your characters to be able to do and their goals. Consider the obstacles you want them to face. The more powerful you make the magic/powers the more important the ways to counter them. It is all about being able to defeat people with powers. Whether they are being used for good or evil, otherwise the person with them always wins, which means a boring story.
> 
> The use of magic in a story is a wonderful tool to take the reader out of our reality and make the impossible happen. It can also be a detriment when made too powerful. If magic can solve most situations, as a writer you will find it difficult to create scenarios and obstacles that challenge your characters. This is the reason magic must have limits and costs.
> ...



I agree with you on the creation of limits. The only working limits I have right now are resource-driven ones. If there isn't enough matter/energy to accomplish one task, then it cannot be accomplished. You can't make a thunderstorm if the only energy source you have is a 9-volt battery. 

The "magic users" cannot generate this energy themselves, they can only manipulate the energy around them. Sometimes they can transfer caloric intake into bonus energy, but this, of course, leaves them very hungry and the natural digestion process takes 24 hours to complete. Most of the limitations imposed on magic-users are legal ones, it is seen as "The Devil's work" and is banned in the story, but is practiced in secret.

That's about as far as I've gotten in the system.


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## Tettsuo (Apr 2, 2018)

Establish clear boundaries and limitations.  Don't create a "Superman" that seems to have no limits or restrictions.  Everyone is bound by the rules and if not, it has to be something extreme.

Follow through with your ideas.  What I mean by this is to have the thought exercise in which you detail out what the world would be like if there were magic users.  How would warfare look?  How would simply day to day chores be altered if people used magic?  Would they drive?  If so, why? Literally take the idea to it's most reasonable conclusion.


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## Stormcat (Apr 2, 2018)

Tettsuo said:


> Establish clear boundaries and limitations. Don't create a "Superman" that seems to have no limits or restrictions. Everyone is bound by the rules and if not, it has to be something extreme.



But I do have clear boundaries established. Matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed, so if a magic user doesn't have enough energy/matter to complete a task, they can't do it.

Also, the magic is forbidden in this world because of religious dogma. If you get caught practicing it, you are put to death.


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## Tettsuo (Apr 2, 2018)

Stormcat said:


> But I do have clear boundaries established. Matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed, so if a magic user doesn't have enough energy/matter to complete a task, they can't do it.
> 
> Also, the magic is forbidden in this world because of religious dogma. If you get caught practicing it, you are put to death.


You've no reason to be defensive, I'm not saying you did anything incorrectly.  I'm only suggesting that you make sure you're nailing down the rules to your magic system.

Why would anyone who can use magic allow themselves to be put to death?  How can they stop them without using magic?  Again, just more questions to take to their most logic conclusions.


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## Stormcat (Apr 2, 2018)

Tettsuo said:


> You've no reason to be defensive, I'm not saying you did anything incorrectly. I'm only suggesting that you make sure you're nailing down the rules to your magic system.



Sorry, I already typed this all out in the OP, and I get irritated very easily.

Anyway...

Magic users most certainly DON'T want to be put to death, it's a natural ability of their species. The Theocracy has... something... which can inhibit the ability to manipulate energy in this way, but they mostly just slap the label of "Witchcraft" on any behavior they do not like.


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## Cephus (Apr 2, 2018)

While I almost never write fantasy, I have in the past and all you have to do to create a decent magic system is assign it rules and stick to those rules. Explain how it works, at least in a vague sense. Make it sound like it's science.  Describe it as such.  It can't be just waving wands, there has to be something else behind it.


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## Blackstone (Apr 2, 2018)

Stormcat said:


> I'm writing a story with magical beings in it. Usually, I just write fanfiction where there is already a rational magic system in place, but this time, I have to make a brand new one all on my own.
> 
> So, I need a little help setting up the basics. The going explanation for this system is that the users are simply utilizing the ambient energy around them to accomplish amazing feats. The only thing I remember from High School physics class is that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed. Other than that, I have no idea where to go. Any advice?



My choice of magic power would not come from ambient energy. It's too vague. Also I suspect nobody with an adult-sized brain would believe that the energy surrounding any day-to-day objects or lifeforms on Planet Earth would be enough to do anything impressive, and I assume you want your magic to be impressive.

Of course none of that matters except that it sounds like you are trying to make this somewhat believable, and perhaps cross the border between fantasy and science fiction. That's a toughie. You will probably want to decide first and foremost if your version of magic is a skill (something learned/taught and generally open to anybody) or a trait. 

As somebody who deals a lot with 'mind power' in my writing, whenever I dabble in the supernatural (which isn't very often these days to be honest) I invariably incorporate some kind of psychological idea. It doesn't necessarily have to check out scientifically, but it should at least have the smell of something possible - albeit on a highly speculative level. Mind control is an easy but fun one. Hypnosis is another. Maybe research different psychic phenomena/mentalism? I understand that may not meet the brief of 'magic' but you may find it gives you ideas.


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## Jack of all trades (Apr 2, 2018)

Off the top of my head, I don't remember a lot of physics and advanced science.

For every action there's an equal and opposite reaction, comes to mind.

E= m(c x c) 

And then there's my brother's favorite. Nothing ever really touches because everything is made of atoms, which are neutrons and protons with orbits of electrons. Since electrons repulse each other, when one object get close enough to another, the electrons of the two things repulse each other. So nothing ever truly touches.


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## Stormcat (Apr 3, 2018)

Blackstone said:


> My choice of magic power would not come from ambient energy. It's too vague. Also I suspect nobody with an adult-sized brain would believe that the energy surrounding any day-to-day objects or lifeforms on Planet Earth would be enough to do anything impressive, and I assume you want your magic to be impressive.
> 
> Of course none of that matters except that it sounds like you are trying to make this somewhat believable, and perhaps cross the border between fantasy and science fiction. That's a toughie. You will probably want to decide first and foremost if your version of magic is a skill (something learned/taught and generally open to anybody) or a trait.
> 
> As somebody who deals a lot with 'mind power' in my writing, whenever I dabble in the supernatural (which isn't very often these days to be honest) I invariably incorporate some kind of psychological idea. It doesn't necessarily have to check out scientifically, but it should at least have the smell of something possible - albeit on a highly speculative level. Mind control is an easy but fun one. Hypnosis is another. Maybe research different psychic phenomena/mentalism? I understand that may not meet the brief of 'magic' but you may find it gives you ideas.



My initial idea for this "Magic" system was the alchemy from Fullmetal Alchemist. It is indeed a trait, but there are A series of rules and one can study alchemy for years to become good at it. In this story I'm working on, all the citizens have this trait so they can do "Alchemy" but the religious overseers prohibit the study of it. An untrained "Alchemist" might be able to pull off an incident by accident, but they need to be able to control their ability.

I also want to stay as far away from the blatantly supernatural as physically possible. I'm really trying to hammer home the theme of "Science is nothing more than magic we can explain", and the religious overseers are trying to keep the populace deliberately ignorant so they have the most power. Their whole religion is based on a lie anyway, and I want to drive home that point as well.

So, since I'm basing all this off of Science as opposed to traditional magic, I need to delve more into the world of physics rather than magic. Unfortunately, high school physics class was years ago and I don't remember a thing from it.


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## Blackstone (Apr 3, 2018)

Stormcat said:


> My initial idea for this "Magic" system was the alchemy from Fullmetal Alchemist. It is indeed a trait, but there are A series of rules and one can study alchemy for years to become good at it. In this story I'm working on, all the citizens have this trait so they can do "Alchemy" but the religious overseers prohibit the study of it. An untrained "Alchemist" might be able to pull off an incident by accident, but they need to be able to control their ability.
> 
> I also want to stay as far away from the blatantly supernatural as physically possible. I'm really trying to hammer home the theme of "Science is nothing more than magic we can explain", and the religious overseers are trying to keep the populace deliberately ignorant so they have the most power. Their whole religion is based on a lie anyway, and I want to drive home that point as well.
> 
> So, since I'm basing all this off of Science as opposed to traditional magic, I need to delve more into the world of physics rather than magic. Unfortunately, high school physics class was years ago and I don't remember a thing from it.



I love the idea behind what you are doing. 

The challenge for me is that you are still walking a very fine line. "Science is nothing more than magic we can explain" is true, however of course it works the other way - magic is nothing more than science we *cannot* explain - and therefore the problem becomes coming up with something that is scientifically sound and yet_feels _close enough to magic that it can be employed where magic would normally be used. 

The reason most authors use magic is to accomplish things that would never be possible or even really conceivable in reality - the supernatural, in other words. In this case you want magic that has the appearance of the supernatural but is entirely based (or could potentially be) by science and all this needs to be credible for the reader. It seems to me, then, that your menu (as it were) should come down to items for which some basic scientific understanding has been established (enough that we know the thing/concept exists) but there are certain pieces yet to be figured out. 

I mentioned the brain because for me mentalism has been a long term interest and there are still huge things we don't know about what goes on inside our own heads. Because of that the human psyche becomes a kind of playground for me because provided I can tell the story convincingly and incorporate at least some science I can make just about anything seem real. A movie like "Inception" or the 2014 movie "Lucy" base entire plots off the idea of unlocking hidden areas of the human brain to access abilities that are supernatural in all but name. 

Other things that for me have the semblance of magic but are science would be speed of light travel, black hole theories (what happens to an object inside a black hole is pretty much magic I reckon), anything to do with dark matter, quantum effects, hawking radiation, etc. Artificial intelligence is another great area for this. Any of that stuff would have been thought of as magic once. Anything to do with quarks is interesting. I recommend a book called _Inside the Atom by _Isaac Asimov, who was both a fantastic science fiction writer and somebody who knew a hell of a lot about science and could make it understandable. 

Actually anything by Asimov seems like a good place to go.


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## Stormcat (Apr 4, 2018)

Blackstone said:


> I love the idea behind what you are doing.
> 
> The challenge for me is that you are still walking a very fine line. "Science is nothing more than magic we can explain" is true, however of course it works the other way - magic is nothing more than science we *cannot* explain - and therefore the problem becomes coming up with something that is scientifically sound and yet_feels _close enough to magic that it can be employed where magic would normally be used.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I'm working with the whole mental angle as the species capable of this ability are mostly human, but have a few key differences, including a special organ in the brain which allows them to manipulate the energy. (It already exists in humans, it's just puny and underdeveloped)

I'm just getting frustrated at the apparent lack of reading comprehension in my posts. I try to make painfully clear the fact that this is magic in name only, and yet I keep getting advice that tells me to look at spellbooks and Dungeons and Dragons handbooks.


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## Ralph Rotten (Apr 4, 2018)

I caution you from defining any limitations until you absolutely must. Else you risk painting yourself into a corner. You are early in this project so you cannot possibly see what this story could grow into. Outline the limitations for yourself, but be hesitant to reveal them to the reader or it will now be written in stone.  _Taint enough white out in the world to fix that error._


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## Stormcat (Apr 4, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> I caution you from defining any limitations until you absolutely must. Else you risk painting yourself into a corner. You are early in this project so you cannot possibly see what this story could grow into. Outline the limitations for yourself, but be hesitant to reveal them to the reader or it will now be written in stone. _Taint enough white out in the world to fix that error._



I hardly think that defining this system as being wholly secular, objective, and testable is "Painting myself into a corner". Especially considering that the overall theme of this story is that "Rational thought destroys all things supernatural". Does saying that Superman's powers are a result of his "Kryptonian biology" make him any less super?

This Magic-in-name-only system needs to demonstrate that it is 

A) Not caused by any supernatural entity, it is the being themselves doing the "MINO" 
B) Any apparent supernatural activity has a scientific explanation 
C) The Theocratic regime that rules this world is deliberately suppressing the natural abilities of the population in an attempt to hold onto power for as long as possible 
D) There is no "Good" MINO or "Bad" MINO, it is just a system that can be utilized for any purpose
E) Any member of the species of this story can use MINO, but it needs to be practiced to become better at it
F) the limitations of MINO work with the basic laws of physics
G) MINO is only explained enough so that characters can use it, some technical details will be glossed over for the sake of storytelling
H) The theocracy is doing... something... that prevents the general population from accidentally using MINO, Only trained MINO users can bypass this inhibitor, with a great deal of effort
I) One could live their entire lives without using MINO, but it does make life so much easier


There seems to be a profound lack of reading comprehension ability on this forum. I feel like I have to keep repeating myself because no one actually reads my posts.


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## Blackstone (Apr 4, 2018)

Stormcat said:


> There seems to be a profound lack of reading comprehension ability on this forum. I feel like I have to keep repeating myself because no one actually reads my posts.



The difficulty for me is this

*E) Any member of the species of this story can use MINO, but it needs to be practiced to become better at it
**F) the limitations of MINO work with the basic laws of physics
*
I already gave you several general ideas of scientific concepts that resemble magic to the layman's eye but that is because they are things most people have no experience of.

Virtually every day-to-day activity, object, etc is understood by every human being to at minimum the extent we know it isn't magic. This is why most of us do not believe in magic. If you want the reader to be in similar thrall to the superhuman abilities of your 'magic' you are going to have to find something that is impossible, like say a human being floating off the ground, and yet find a way to explain how this is possible. 

On reflection, I think maybe the easiest way would be to work backwards.

Rather than coming up with science that sounds magical, why not try coming up with magic and then looking for possible science to explain it? Most likely it will be bogus science in terms of the real world. Hopefully that is okay with you so long as it can be explained in a way that sounds plausible?

So in the example of trying to explain how a human being could fly a la superman, I would look at how gravity can be manipulated. We know, for instance, that gravity changes behavior in certain circumstances. We also know that there have been human theories and attempts at 'anti-gravity', such as ionocraft which use electro magneticism. None of this technology and theory can result in a human flying unaided - we know that - but we could possibly, at a stretch, conjure the thought of a human who possessed through some kind of mental power, the ability to generate an electromagnetic field around their body that could through ionic air populsion manifest in levitation. To be clear, this is not scientific at all, but it is based on a scientifically sound theory. 

Likewise I have heard and seen (usually not very well) the tenet of 'energy cannot be created or destroyed' as an argument for the existence of ghosts, heaven, hell, etc. It's bad science, but it's not necessarily bad fiction. Just figured I'd mention it since that was the example you gave first time.

My advice for you is to work backward. Pick whatever magic you want, whatever you like, and see if you can contrive an explanation from available science. The beauty is this is still fiction so subject to your own standards you should be able to find something.


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## Newman (Apr 5, 2018)

Stormcat said:


> I'm writing a story with magical beings in it. Usually, I just write fanfiction where there is already a rational magic system in place, but this time, I have to make a brand new one all on my own.
> 
> So, I need a little help setting up the basics. The going explanation for this system is that the users are simply utilizing the ambient energy around them to accomplish amazing feats. The only thing I remember from High School physics class is that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed. Other than that, I have no idea where to go. Any advice?
> 
> *EDIT:* The "Magic" in this system has nothing whatsoever to do with the supernatural. It is just being used as an explanation as to how my characters are able to accomplish amazing feats that a normal human is incapable of. It is magic in name only.



I reckon irrational magic systems are more fun. You don't have to explain anything. Abracadabra there you go.


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## Jack of all trades (Apr 5, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> I caution you from defining any limitations until you absolutely must. Else you risk painting yourself into a corner. You are early in this project so you cannot possibly see what this story could grow into. Outline the limitations for yourself, but be hesitant to reveal them to the reader or it will now be written in stone.  _Taint enough white out in the world to fix that error._



First of all, those of us who write stories set in the non-magical world have to deal with occasionally being 'painted in a corner", yet we manage to find a way out.

As for "white out", until the book is published, one can always pull a section and rewrite. So no worries about what the reader sees, because nothing is seen until publication.


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## Jack of all trades (Apr 5, 2018)

Stormcat said:


> I hardly think that defining this system as being wholly secular, objective, and testable is "Painting myself into a corner". Especially considering that the overall theme of this story is that "Rational thought destroys all things supernatural". Does saying that Superman's powers are a result of his "Kryptonian biology" make him any less super?
> 
> This Magic-in-name-only system needs to demonstrate that it is
> 
> ...



Maybe it's just their discomfort of a project such as you are describing that is showing.

You seem to have a pretty clear idea of what you want this to be. I gave you the bit of physics I remember off the top of my head. If you need more, I suggest you go to a bookstore and pick up a physics study guide. That might be available online, too.

Remember writers are not necessarily well versed in physics or the physical sciences. There might be a science forum somewhere. Maybe you can get more answers somewhere like that.


Good luck with this project. It sounds interesting!


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## Underd0g (Apr 5, 2018)

Sometimes I speak without understanding but can you come up with a way to tap sources of energy like power lines, running water, uranium, or wind?
This would limit and add an element of surprise.


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## Tettsuo (Apr 5, 2018)

Stormcat said:


> Yeah, I'm working with the whole mental angle as the species capable of this ability are mostly human, but have a few key differences, including a special organ in the brain which allows them to manipulate the energy. (It already exists in humans, it's just puny and underdeveloped)
> 
> I'm just getting frustrated at the apparent lack of reading comprehension in my posts. I try to make painfully clear the fact that this is magic in name only, and yet I keep getting advice that tells me to look at spellbooks and Dungeons and Dragons handbooks.


It seems your story hinges on the idea that all beings in this world has the inherent ability to use this MINO power, but their Theocratic leadership stops them from utilizing it with threats of violence.  My question is why do the people allow this to begin with?  it's something they've been using forever.  It's like claiming the Catholic church has deemed walking to be against God.  Or better yet, sex outside of marriage is outlawed or they'll be faced with death for their disobedience.  People would instantly revolt against such a bizarre rule and that religion would fall to the wayside.

Well, I'm sure you have a good reason for it all.


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