# Giving the story away



## W.Goepner (May 13, 2016)

Hi all,

Here it is. My story/book has two parts to it, for the most part.(I can't believe it did that) The first is the MC's story, the second is his helping other characters to adjust to their alternate selves. 

My biggest issue is with the MC's story. When I thought up the story, it was while I was running a one on one off the head game of Dungeons and Dragons with a coworker.(no dice or character sheets) Taking from the idea of a person passing through a doorway/portal and finding out they can change shapes. Then they get trapped in another world long enough to take on a mate only to discover shortly after the way home. 

My story starts the first night the MC is home and had been passionate with the wife he left behind. The big kicker,(for those who do not or have not seen my synopsis of this story) the MC was on the other world the better part of two years, On returning to his home city he discovers it has only been a scant seven days he was away. 

Now how much of the meat should I disclose before telling the whole adventure of his time away. Like one person pointed out, we know he survived time away and can change shapes, do I give hints of how long, the portal, and his state of being before I tell you about all of it? Or do I keep it as tight lipped as possible and let it leak out further on?

I get the idea of less is more but what is the view as a reader. I mean, I have told the gist of this piece in so many places, I think my potential beta readers know enough of the story they would find it boring to muck through it with me.

Any thoughts would help. Right now I have two or three versions of the start in various stages of disclosure. The one I am gaining confidence with it the less I say the more I attract.


----------



## bdcharles (May 13, 2016)

I think with the "less is more" approach you avoid info dumps but more importantly, the reader gets glimpses of something big and mysterious but that they can't quite figure out yet. I love that sort of writing. It's like an adventure. Personally I would prefer to read that than have it all exposited out.


----------



## Jack of all trades (May 13, 2016)

The important thing is to give enough of a glimpse into his life that the reader will understand and identify with him. Make sure he is likeable, too.

And give a reason for the reader to keep reading. That's what I did wrong. My story kind of wraps up in chapter two. It does it again at the end of chapter six. Too many quit reading in those places. I'm now looking for a way to keep the reader's interest to liven up those spots. So learn from my mistake.


----------



## escorial (May 13, 2016)

every storyline has been covered..just in a different way and that is your way...anyone can take a story say Hamlet and turn it into their story so the best thing is probably to just stick to your style and go with it...


----------



## EmmaSohan (May 13, 2016)

For me, putting something in the past of the story time bleeds the emotion out of it. Really, there is huge emotional difference between reading about something happened and reading (in the story) a tweet about what happened 5 minutes ago.

_The Martian_ is a great example. Something goes wrong, his life is in danger, and there is no suspense for me because we are reading what he wrote that night.

Is anyone else like that? Everyone?

For Bill's story, I worried about reading about his trip to the other world when I knew he survived, eventually found a way to return, found a mate, and can change shape. That doesn't make the story less _interesting_. But for me it takes out suspense and surprise.


----------



## Terry D (May 13, 2016)

EmmaSohan said:


> For me, putting something in the past of the story time bleeds the emotion out of it. Really, there is huge emotional difference between reading about something happened and reading (in the story) a tweet about what happened 5 minutes ago.
> 
> _The Martian_ is a great example. Something goes wrong, his life is in danger, and there is no suspense for me because we are reading what he wrote that night.
> 
> ...



First person present is no different. There's no more suspense. The narrator is there, he/she is not going to die in the next instant. I've never read a book, or story, written in first-present which ended in the middle of a sentence because the narrator was killed. Accepting the applied immortality of the narrator and allowing one's self to be immersed in the story is part of the contract between reader and writer. The writer says, "I'm going to tell you a really cool lie." The reader says, "Okay, and I'll pretend I don't know it's all a lie." The writer's job, regardless of the voice-tense-POV used, is to make that lie engaging enough for the reader to be able to hold up their part of the bargain.

The suspense in The Martian comes from the reader not knowing what is going to happen next, and from Watley being presented with seemingly insurmountable problems he needs to overcome. The suspense in that book starts with the very first sentence.


----------



## Bishop (May 13, 2016)

Terry D said:


> I've never read a book, or story, written in first-present which ended in the middle of a sentence because the narrator was killed.


----------



## Patrick (May 13, 2016)

Hmmm, I immediately thought it'd be more interesting if something had come back in his image while he's still there. The twist is the imitator is the narrator. I mean, you have to think, there are a lot of possible worlds you'd trade in a heartbeat for this one.

Just some food for thought.


----------



## EmmaSohan (May 13, 2016)

Hi Terry. It's not a tense thing. Whether the book is in written in present tense or past tense, there is a "story time". In _The Martian_, it is like Sunday Night, he is writing in his log, we know he is writing in his log, and he is describing the events of the day. The book can be very interesting. It might clever how he takes out the suspense so we can focus on the cleverness. There is still suspense about what will happen the next day. But to me, no suspense about whether he died that day.

Compare



> Let me tell you about my day. I was standing with my hands up, a gun pointed at my head.


versus



> I was standing with my hands up, a gun pointed at my head.


For me, the second start is much better.


----------



## Patrick (May 13, 2016)

Emma, a first-person narrator is never in immediate danger of dying. Terry's saying we as readers suspend disbelief to experience the dilemma of the character with him/her. It doesn't really matter how the action is narrated; this suspension of disbelief is required.


----------



## EmmaSohan (May 13, 2016)

Patrick said:


> Emma, a first-person narrator is never in immediate danger of dying. Terry's saying we as readers suspend disbelief to experience the dilemma of the character with him/her. It doesn't really matter how the action is narrated; this suspension of disbelief is required.



Sorry, I think we crossed, I am saying the same thing.

The question is, am I suspending belief and immersing myself in a story about a man on Mars with a punctured suit who is probably going to die? Very suspenseful for me.

Or am I suspending belief and immersing myself in a story about a man in mars writing in his log at the end of his day. I know there is no real man on Mars, but I imagine myself reading over his shoulder about how he almost died that day. Very interesting how he survived.


----------



## Terry D (May 13, 2016)

EmmaSohan said:


> For me, the second start is much better.



Sure it is, but that's because you wrote the first one to be bad. Even your second version is nowhere near as good as the opening to The Martian.


----------



## Patrick (May 13, 2016)

EmmaSohan said:


> Sorry, I think we crossed, I am saying the same thing.
> 
> The question is, am I suspending belief and immersing myself in a story about a man on Mars with a punctured suit who is probably going to die? Very suspenseful for me.
> 
> Or am I suspending belief and immersing myself in a story about a man in mars writing in his log at the end of his day. I know there is no real man on Mars, but I imagine myself reading over his shoulder about how he almost died that day. Very interesting how he survived.



I haven't read the martian, but I think the first-person pov probably works largely because it's a log. It allows the writing to be a bit more reflective while retaining authenticity.

I'd write it in third person past, otherwise, which is the superior and more versatile pov.


----------



## EmmaSohan (May 13, 2016)

Terry D said:


> Sure it is, but that's because you wrote the first one to be bad. Even your second version is nowhere near as good as the opening to The Martian.



The question isn't the quality of The Martian. If you want to argue that it's interesting, yes it is. If you want to argue that there is suspense about what happens next -- will he survive? -- there is. The question is if there is any suspense for the events that already happened. He is writing in his log about his die, is is suspenseful whether or not he survives? You can say there are. That's the question.

That translates directly to Bill's novel. His MC is transported to another world. The portal disappears. He does not know how to get back to his family and his world. He despairs and finally settles in to the new world. Then, somehow, he finds a portal back to his real world. Does it spoil anything to know, from the start, that he gets back to his family. (The reader might be reminded of this frequently.)


----------



## W.Goepner (May 13, 2016)

Patrick said:


> Emma, a first-person narrator is never in immediate danger of dying. Terry's saying we as readers suspend disbelief to experience the dilemma of the character with him/her. It doesn't really matter how the action is narrated; this suspension of disbelief is required.



Ah but there is an exception to that Think of a ghost story told from the POV of the ghost. Our challenge in the COF a month ago Graveyard + happiness. We knew the person had died and the story was built around their happiness. not what I intended when I thought of the prompt but I did not do the fire starter. No a narrative from the victims POV is some times written though I do not think I ... Well maybe I have in another WIP I have. 

But, I agree, as long as I can keep the suspense factor up, for some, I might be able to have readers like Emma reading further. Though if they wish to find out how or why they should read on.


----------



## W.Goepner (May 13, 2016)

EmmaSohan said:


> Sorry, I think we crossed, I am saying the same thing.
> 
> The question is, am I suspending belief and immersing myself in a story about a man on Mars with a punctured suit who is probably going to die? Very suspenseful for me.
> 
> Or am I suspending belief and immersing myself in a story about a man in mars writing in his log at the end of his day. I know there is no real man on Mars, but I imagine myself reading over his shoulder about how he almost died that day. Very interesting how he survived.



So it is how the hint dropping is presented, that encourages you to read on.


----------



## W.Goepner (May 13, 2016)

EmmaSohan said:


> The question isn't the quality of The Martian. If you want to argue that it's interesting, yes it is. If you want to argue that there is suspense about what happens next -- will he survive? -- there is. The question is if there is any suspense for the events that already happened. He is writing in his log about his die, is is suspenseful whether or not he survives? You can say there are. That's the question.
> 
> That translates directly to Bill's novel. His MC is transported to another world. The portal disappears. He does not know how to get back to his family and his world. He despairs and finally settles in to the new world. Then, somehow, he finds a portal back to his real world. Does it spoil anything to know, from the start, that he gets back to his family. (The reader might be reminded of this frequently.)



The suspense should be how he managed to survive. Sure the "Let me tell you about my day" approach is kind of, "Oh Joy a narrative" feel But; put a unknown form of energy weapon in the hand of an undisclosed alien pointed at my head. Well I hope I have your attention now.


----------



## Jack of all trades (May 13, 2016)

I actually read a short story that ended in mid sentence. It was quite effective! I agree that there's a slight lessening of suspense when you know he survived.


----------



## Jack of all trades (May 13, 2016)

EmmaSohan said:


> For me, putting something in the past of the story time bleeds the emotion out of it. Really, there is huge emotional difference between reading about something happened and reading (in the story) a tweet about what happened 5 minutes ago.
> 
> _The Martian_ is a great example. Something goes wrong, his life is in danger, and there is no suspense for me because we are reading what he wrote that night.
> 
> Is anyone else like that? Everyone?


 Me.


----------



## EmmaSohan (May 13, 2016)

W.Goepner said:


> The suspense should be how he managed to survive. Sure the "Let me tell you about my day" approach is kind of, "Oh Joy a narrative" feel But; put a unknown form of energy weapon in the hand of an undisclosed alien pointed at my head. Well I hope I have your attention now.



I am thinking that whether or not the alien kills you is suspense. How you get away is interesting. If you don't tell me in advance that you get away, I can have both when I read.


----------



## Patrick (May 13, 2016)

Be a cool kid and use third person past tense. Don't follow the trend.

I value mastery of the classic form much more highly than all these modern faddy techniques.


----------



## JustRob (May 14, 2016)

Even though you are giving away aspects of the story, are you giving away the point of the story? In a way the story itself has a character of its own and although it may be conventional to think of the reader following the course of the MC, in reality they are following the course of the story. Even if you have telegraphed what happens to the MC that doesn't mean that the story has been revealed because that is the sum total of the events along the way.

There may be parallels between the storyline of my novel and your work. In mine a young woman appears to move into an alternative reality and meets a young man. They spend a couple of weeks together forming a close relationship but eventually she ends it because it is becoming too real and she returns to her own reality while he returns to his. The alternative world was an illusion born out of their encounter itself, maybe an allegorical reference to many impractical fleeting relationships in real life. That is not the point of the story though. The point is whether they can re-establish the relationship in the future or whether it was a unique unrepeatable experience and they can never meet again. There is also the question of whether she would want to do that or whether she prefers just to pursue her normal life. Also the experience may have changed that life anyway, so perhaps it isn't that simple a choice. There is never any doubt that she will return to reality at some point, but that doesn't spoil the story in any way. It is more about the nature of her personal reality.

More than once I have mentioned _The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant _by Stephen R. Donaldson here. While unconscious Covenant is transported to The Land, another world which has an entirely different timescale from his real life. He returns occasionally throughout the stories as well. One perpetually unresolved question is what would happen if he were to die while in The Land. Would he also die in reality? Just how closely are his two existences connected? Once again it is a question of what the point of the story is. The point is to keep the reader reading actually.


----------



## Jack of all trades (May 14, 2016)

Patrick said:


> Be a cool kid and use third person past tense.



Are you sure he's not?



Patrick said:


> Don't follow the trend.


To which trend do you refer?


----------



## Jack of all trades (May 14, 2016)

I think the point is there must be a reason, a motivation, for the reader to keep reading.

While it is possible to know the main character survives and makes it back home and still have a gripping story, that can be difficult to achieve. I'm not sure a first time novelist can pull it off successfully. I am STILL trying to keep beta readers from "getting busy" in the middle of my book.


----------



## Terry D (May 14, 2016)

What we are talking about here is the 'epistolary' format of novel construction; a story told as a series of letters, diary entries, news articles, or, in a more modern world, video-logs, texts, emails, tweets, etc. It has a long history in literature from _Dracula, Frankenstein, The Screwtape Letters, The Sorrows of a Young Writer_ to _Herzog, Carrie, The Perks of Being a Wallflower, Bridget Jones Diary, Fried Green Tomatoes at the Whistle Stop Cafe, World War Z_, and hundreds more. Hell, I even wrote an LM entry in the form of a series of Twitter tweets (and yes, [spoiler alert!] the protagonist died at the end). It can be found here:http://www.writingforums.com/thread...y-is-Burning?p=1545106&viewfull=1#post1545106 

It works just fine. There's _*absolutely nothing wrong*_ with telling a story from a 'story past' perspective.


----------



## Patrick (May 14, 2016)

Jack of all trades said:


> Are you sure he's not?
> 
> 
> To which trend do you refer?



Those comments are in the context of a conversation. A: they are facetious, and B: the trend I am referring to is that of first person narratives and the present tense in historical narratives. Hilary Mantel does the latter very well, but third person, past tense is the way to go for most fiction.

There is nothing wrong with The Martian's format, however.


----------



## Jack of all trades (May 14, 2016)

Terry D said:


> What we are talking about here is the 'epistolary' format of novel construction; a story told as a series of letters, diary entries, news articles, or, in a more modern world, video-logs, texts, emails, tweets, etc. It has a long history in literature from _Dracula, Frankenstein, The Screwtape Letters, The Sorrows of a Young Writer_ to _Herzog, Carrie, The Perks of Being a Wallflower, Bridget Jones Diary, Fried Green Tomatoes at the Whistle Stop Cafe, World War Z_, and hundreds more. Hell, I even wrote an LM entry in the form of a series of Twitter tweets (and yes, [spoiler alert!] the protagonist died at the end). It can be found
> 
> here:http://www.writingforums.com/thread...y-is-Burning?p=1545106&viewfull=1#post1545106
> 
> It works just fine. There's _*absolutely nothing wrong*_ with telling a story from a 'story past' perspective.




You may be talking about 'epistolary' format, but that's not how I would describe WGoepner's book. 

And, no matter what style is chosen, it must keep the reader's interest, or there's no point writing it! So it only works if the reader keeps reading.

There's a difference between something being just fine in theory and being just fine in practice. It sounds like Emma has read the piece and is discussing the topic in general, but with this particular piece in the back of her mind. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but that's how it read to me.


----------



## Jack of all trades (May 14, 2016)

Patrick said:


> Those comments are in the context of a conversation. A: they are facetious, and B: the trend I am referring to is that of first person narratives and the present tense in historical narratives. Hilary Mantel does the latter very well, but third person, past tense is the way to go for most fiction.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with The Martian's format, however.



First person narratives are hardly trendy. Most of what I see is the old third person narrative, with the occasional first person. But I don't jump on the latest trend bandwagons.


----------



## EmmaSohan (May 15, 2016)

Terry D said:


> What we are talking about here is the 'epistolary' format of novel construction; a story told as a series of letters, diary entries, news articles, or, in a more modern world, video-logs, texts, emails, tweets, etc. It has a long history in literature from _Dracula, Frankenstein, The Screwtape Letters, The Sorrows of a Young Writer_ to _Herzog, Carrie, The Perks of Being a Wallflower, Bridget Jones Diary, Fried Green Tomatoes at the Whistle Stop Cafe, World War Z_, and hundreds more. Hell, I even wrote an LM entry in the form of a series of Twitter tweets (and yes, [spoiler alert!] the protagonist died at the end). It can be found here:http://www.writingforums.com/thread...y-is-Burning?p=1545106&viewfull=1#post1545106
> 
> It works just fine. There's _*absolutely nothing wrong*_ with telling a story from a 'story past' perspective.



You are disagreeing with me about MY reading experience? This seems like the biggest home field advantage ever.

You are saying I was not annoyed every time I was reminded in _Flowers for Algernon_ that it was epistolary? I thought I was.

You are saying that there was no loss of suspense for me in the _The Martian_ because I am clearly told in advance that he survives some life-endangering event? Then why did they lack suspense for me?

Bridget Jones picks up her baby, the baby vomits on her. That scene would evoke a strong emotional response in me. But we don't read that, we read about her tweeting it 5 minutes later. Reading about someone tweeting had little emotional response for me. You are saying that 5 minutes wasn't relevant to my reading experience?


----------



## W.Goepner (May 15, 2016)

JustRob said:


> Even though you are giving away aspects of the story, are you giving away the point of the story? In a way the story itself has a character of its own and although it may be conventional to think of the reader following the course of the MC, in reality they are following the course of the story. Even if you have telegraphed what happens to the MC that doesn't mean that the story has been revealed because that is the sum total of the events along the way.
> 
> There may be parallels between the storyline of my novel and your work. In mine a young woman appears to move into an alternative reality and meets a young man. They spend a couple of weeks together forming a close relationship but eventually she ends it because it is becoming too real and she returns to her own reality while he returns to his. The alternative world was an illusion born out of their encounter itself, maybe an allegorical reference to many impractical fleeting relationships in real life. That is not the point of the story though. The point is whether they can re-establish the relationship in the future or whether it was a unique unrepeatable experience and they can never meet again. There is also the question of whether she would want to do that or whether she prefers just to pursue her normal life. Also the experience may have changed that life anyway, so perhaps it isn't that simple a choice. There is never any doubt that she will return to reality at some point, but that doesn't spoil the story in any way. It is more about the nature of her personal reality.
> 
> More than once I have mentioned _The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant _by Stephen R. Donaldson here. While unconscious Covenant is transported to The Land, another world which has an entirely different timescale from his real life. He returns occasionally throughout the stories as well. One perpetually unresolved question is what would happen if he were to die while in The Land. Would he also die in reality? Just how closely are his two existences connected? Once again it is a question of what the point of the story is. The point is to keep the reader reading actually.



​Right! Am I giving away too much to warrant the reader to continue? Without someone reading beyond chapter three. I have no reference to this other than the reader does not continue. My question, is this a marked trend of most readers, if I tell too much before I tell the adventure do I loose the reader, or is it I do not tell the story well enough to keep them going? Based on one reader's response, I am droning. He gave up. Another reader said I was giving them to much of their success or failure before telling the reader how it came to be, therefore taking away the reason they wished to read the story.

There many alternate reality stories out there. "Chronicles of Narnia" is one, I do not recall the title of another I was impressed with. It was about a guy who when killed storming the beach of Normandy,  was transported to another reality, there he became a war ace and was about to save the day when he was killed again and transported back to the place of his first death. 

What I had intended to do with this piece, was to take a guy from today. A guy who is a decedent of a group of visitors stranded here, these visitors came here four hundred years ago, about twenty generations between the two times. The visitors were able to change shapes, but due to the werewolf legends and simple prejudice they were forced to conceal their abilities. Thus the now day man does not know he can change. I reveal the change in the start of my book/story and explain later how he came to realize he could. The fact he went through a portal and spent more time than it appeared he did In my original idea of the story is where Emma is saying I reveal too much for her, and she looses interest. Now I am wondering if this is true with most readers? I think it will better my story if I can leave time factor from the start, and drop in the portal in just enough time for him to explain it in his adventures. Though the time factor is apart of the story and is apart of the reason he needs to tell it.

So where Emma is saying "I know he went through the portal, spent more time away than thought, discovered the change, And took a mate while gone. All before he explains that he did." Spoils the desire to read how it came about. So How much do I need to tell the reader and not loose their interest?


----------



## W.Goepner (May 15, 2016)

EmmaSohan said:


> You are disagreeing with me about MY reading experience? This seems like the biggest home field advantage ever.
> 
> You are saying I was not annoyed every time I was reminded in _Flowers for Algernon_ that it was epistolary? I thought I was.
> 
> ...



Easy Emma, I think he is saying more that, the story format is the norm or fairly common and if done well is enjoyable for most. I do not believe he was saying You do not know what you prefer. 

I think there is enough people like you who do not like how I have done the start, or tried to redo it, that I need to consider a better revision that appeals to you, and those like you. If I tell a good story I do not need the exposure first to entice the reader. If I can appeal to you and the average reader, it would give me a greater audience.


----------



## JustRob (May 15, 2016)

Let me have another stab at this. Maybe you have all the right words but are putting them in the wrong order. When I wrote my novel I simply wrote a collection of chapters and then sat wondering what order to put them in. That took a fair amount of shuffling before I thought that I had it right, but overall the story didn't really change, just the way that it was presented to the reader.

You say that you start by revealing that the man can change shape, then explain about his visit to the alternative reality. Maybe that first revelation is coming too soon. If you started with say him returning from that experience, relating it in flashback, and initially focussed the story on the question of whether it was pure fantasy, a dream maybe, then his actual ability to change would be a forthcoming revelation and hints about its origin might be introduced along the way. The ultimate revelation would then be exactly how he acquired the ability and the full implications of that, such as whether there are others like him and how he could possibly get in touch with them.

Of course I would suggest this as it is pretty well how my own novel is organised. The initial girl meets boy experience in an alternative reality only spans the first chapter and then the boy's experiences are related in the subsequent chapters. When the story returns to her experiences later the question is still whether his reality is even any part of hers. The story doesn't really take off until it becomes apparent that their two realities are interacting. Once that matter is settled they should live happily ever after, but then the next unexplained event occurs and the reader is still hooked. 

I was an information technologist during my working life. Writing is very much about organising the way that information is communicated, which includes the order in which that happens. In fact in the first chapter of my novel the young man actually states that it isn't just what you find out that affects how you react to it but also the order in which you discover it. That is actually me speaking to the reader in a veiled way. So, when you have the right words, put them in the right order.

This business of keeping your hooks in the reader is essential to my mind. To give away a significant portion of the plot of my novel, which is freely available on my website anyway, the young man discovers that the mysterious job that he has been offered involves working in a time capsule, which unlike a time machine cannot travel through time but can remain stationary in time for a while. This seems to be a very limited premise for a story as it eliminates all the usual games that writers play with time travel, but when a visitor is having the machine explained to them, which is really for the benefit of the reader of course, someone in the background says that they must make sure that the visitor doesn't find out the rest. This is again a signal to the reader that there is more to learn if they continue to read. Maybe there are twists to the apparently unpromising premise which give the story a different outlook. And of course there is still that encounter with the girl in the first chapter to be resolved. With so many loose ends the reader is tempted to keep reading. That's the approach then, to ensure that there are sufficient loose ends around all the time. Readers who get far enough into my story do not give up on it because the revelations keep coming, promising even more to come. It's a balancing act of telling the reader entertaining things while also hinting to them that there are more things that they don't know yet. Sheherazade knew how important that was.

Work on this problem because it is at the root of good writing to my mind.


----------



## Jack of all trades (May 15, 2016)

W.Goepner said:


> Easy Emma, I think he is saying more that, the story format is the norm or fairly common and if done well is enjoyable for most. I do not believe he was saying You do not know what you prefer.



The impression I have is that Terry and Patrick are taking this too personally, as if we are discussing their writing, not yours. I think they forgot that the heart of this discussion is YOUR story.


----------



## EmmaSohan (May 15, 2016)

W.Goepner said:


> Easy Emma, I think he is saying more that, the story format is the norm or fairly common and if done well is enjoyable for most. I do not believe he was saying You do not know what you prefer.
> 
> I think there is enough people like you who do not like how I have done the start, or tried to redo it, that I need to consider a better revision that appeals to you, and those like you. If I tell a good story I do not need the exposure first to entice the reader. If I can appeal to you and the average reader, it would give me a greater audience.



Okay, calm breath. It's an important issue and I get emotional about it. Plus he -- never mind.

JustRob has an interesting idea. What if the book begins after his return, but not much gets revealed? What if, as a plot device, memories don't make it through the change very well? (That's easy to explain, they aren't in the right format so they are hazy.)

 So maybe when he changes back to human, he has a passion for some reason to build the story hut, and he starts telling the story to them, and he begins to remember as he tells.

And that gets interweaved, slowly, with what is happening in the "now". So like, he gets to the part in his story where he meets Kheera, and then he's like "Oh my God, Kheera isn't just our family dog."

It's a thought. Yes, you probably should write the story in a straightforward way. That's probably good advice to almost every writer. Pulling off two simultaneous stories would be really hard. But it also might be the kind of thing you are good at.


----------



## Patrick (May 15, 2016)

Jack of all trades said:


> The impression I have is that Terry and Patrick are taking this too personally, as if we are discussing their writing, not yours. I think they forgot that the heart of this discussion is YOUR story.



Sorry, what?

The reason I said there's nothing wrong with the martian's format was because i didn't want to give the impression by championing third-person past tense that first-person narratives are somehow always bad.

Other people can disagree with my opinion, of course, and that's fine. Nothing here has been taken personally by me.



Jack of all trades said:


> First person narratives are hardly trendy. Most of what I see is the old third person narrative, with the occasional first person. But I don't jump on the latest trend bandwagons.



I also mentioned using the present tense in historical fiction. This is in fact quite trendy.


----------



## W.Goepner (May 15, 2016)

EmmaSohan said:


> Okay, calm breath. It's an important issue and I get emotional about it. Plus he -- never mind.
> 
> JustRob has an interesting idea. What if the book begins after his return, but not much gets revealed? What if, as a plot device, memories don't make it through the change very well? (That's easy to explain, they aren't in the right format so they are hazy.)
> 
> ...



First I am going to pick on you. My character's name is Ahkeer. I am not good at making up names, Ahkeer was an attempt at thinking of the different sounds a dog makes, It did not work. So believe it or not I put two noises together. The start of a sneeze and the scream of a Cooper's Hawk. Truth! Ahkeer's father or sire was a growl idea Curg.

I have been toying with an idea that will keep the reader in the dark about much of the spoiler stuff but It might mean loosing the discovery of the childrens ability to change. Then again I can put it at the end of his tale.


----------



## W.Goepner (May 15, 2016)

JustRob said:


> Let me have another stab at this. Maybe you have all the right words but are putting them in the wrong order. When I wrote my novel I simply wrote a collection of chapters and then sat wondering what order to put them in. That took a fair amount of shuffling before I thought that I had it right, but overall the story didn't really change, just the way that it was presented to the reader.
> 
> You say that you start by revealing that the man can change shape, then explain about his visit to the alternative reality. Maybe that first revelation is coming too soon. If you started with say him returning from that experience, relating it in flashback, and initially focussed the story on the question of whether it was pure fantasy, a dream maybe, then his actual ability to change would be a forthcoming revelation and hints about its origin might be introduced along the way. The ultimate revelation would then be exactly how he acquired the ability and the full implications of that, such as whether there are others like him and how he could possibly get in touch with them.
> 
> ...



Yes the fact he can change shapes is coming too soon. The disclosure of the portals is coming too soon. The whole start gives much of the story away, in disclosing the the facts without the adventure. I also see where it could be anticlimactic for some who likes to discover things as they happen. As I have said before I was starting with the MC being home and trying to piece together a possible story that would not disclose these things yet they happened anyway. Thinking that would get the reader to be enticed into reading how it came to be. Emma Has shown me that that is not preferable, even Jack of all trades is in accordance with Emma.(nothing against you Jack) It shows me I am in the wrong ballpark using a softball bat at a hardball game. Though there might be a slight advantage to the size of the bat, it is clumsier and heaver making it harder to maneuver.


----------



## Jack of all trades (May 16, 2016)

I think the info about the dog names should be included. Those details help the reader to be drawn into the story. You can mention that "Curg" sounded very like a growl. 

Maybe your main character can tell the children a legend of the shape changers at the beginning. Then you can use some of your opening and sort of set the story up. Just a thought.


----------



## Terry D (May 16, 2016)

EmmaSohan said:


> You are disagreeing with me about MY reading experience? This seems like the biggest home field advantage ever.
> 
> You are saying I was not annoyed every time I was reminded in _Flowers for Algernon_ that it was epistolary? I thought I was.
> 
> ...



Sorry if I sounded like I was attacking your experiences, Emma. I was not. I was simply saying that IMO epistolary fiction is a valuable format. The success of stories told in that format would indicate that many people have no issue with it.


----------



## Terry D (May 16, 2016)

Jack of all trades said:


> The impression I have is that Terry and Patrick are taking this too personally, as if we are discussing their writing, not yours. I think they forgot that the heart of this discussion is YOUR story.



Your impression is asinine and demonstrates the foolishness of making assumptions on a forum like this.


----------



## EmmaSohan (May 16, 2016)

Personal? I like personal. Terry could have written _Chase _as starting with them escaped. Suppose that was actually the best part of the book (even though the other parts look exciting too). Then 2/3 of the book could have been a flashback about them getting captured, trying to escape, and then escaping.

The advantage to this might be if a post-escape scene is the best scene in your book. So its a better start for hooking the reader.

Terry, did you think about writing your book this way? Would you? Did you do anything at the start to tell the readers that they eventually escape?

I am trying to generate more enthusiasm in you for the idea of not giving away what is going to happen. Did that work?

I think Bill wants to add complexity by telling the stories in parallel. So his problem is not the same as yours, but it is close (most of the book the MC is trying to find his way back to his homeworld and family).


----------



## Terry D (May 16, 2016)

EmmaSohan said:


> Personal? I like personal. Terry could have written _Chase _as starting with them escaped. Suppose that was actually the best part of the book (even though the other parts look exciting too). Then 2/3 of the book could have been a flashback about them getting captured, trying to escape, and then escaping.
> 
> The advantage to this might be if a post-escape scene is the best scene in your book. So its a better start for hooking the reader.
> 
> ...



It never occurred to me to do that with Chase, Emma. Although it probably would have been a shorter book if I had. I did have a dream sequence in my first version of the book where my protagonist dreams of running through a forest with a dog long before the boy and the dog are thrown together. I cut that out of the final draft, however.

A better analogy might be in my first book, The Legacy of Aaron Geist. That book is built with two distinct time-lines one set in 1858 the other in present day. The main story (present day) deals with my protagonist escaping from a cave while being chased by a vampire. The second time-line deals with how the vampire came to be trapped in the cave in the first place. Just one person has mentioned that the 1858 time-line took away something from the overall story.


----------



## W.Goepner (May 16, 2016)

Terry D said:


> Your impression is asinine and demonstrates the foolishness of making assumptions on a forum like this.



Bite not Terry, Assumptions are our worst enemy. People who make them show what they know and understand. It is better to let one make an incorrect assumption and with appropriate actions show them they are incorrect. I did not agree with the post and chose to ignore it. I suggest you do the same, Seeing as I understand your meaning to a percent. I will have to look up the meaning of some words.

Before this escalates into a pissing battle, I will ask people to stay on subject, Keep personal jabbing out of the thread. Opinions of other poster's meanings should be addressed to me or the person themselves in a PM. Also before anyone wishes to voice an assumption of another person's post ask them what they are getting at. You might be surprised at the answer.

Aha, but epistolary style writing to some is anticlimactic. I understand Emma's feeling and I will say this, in those instances of knowing the past events before they are told or explained, I pity you the stories you miss out on or loose interest in. Some might have grand adventures you miss due to a preset notion. That does not mean you are not disappointed, Just missing out IMO.


----------



## W.Goepner (May 16, 2016)

EmmaSohan said:


> Personal? I like personal. Terry could have written _Chase _as starting with them escaped. Suppose that was actually the best part of the book (even though the other parts look exciting too). Then 2/3 of the book could have been a flashback about them getting captured, trying to escape, and then escaping.
> 
> The advantage to this might be if a post-escape scene is the best scene in your book. So its a better start for hooking the reader.
> 
> ...



My intention was to have the MC need to tell the story of his time away from his family. The problem, as I understand Emma's concern, I tell all the good stuff before I tell the story. First I tell he can change forms. Then I give the hint he was gone for a longer time than he appeared to be, then dump not only the length of time he was gone but how long before he returned he took his mate. Then I drop the portal bomb and the story gets told. All the juicy pieces get shoved out in the first chapter.

Oh there is more in the story than that but from Emma's perspective I could skip over the tale and go strait to the adventure of others learning how to act as dogs, with other adventures mixed in along the way. Which is the last eight chapters of the book.

There is more complexity to the book, and a fifteen hundred year old secret is revealed in chapter thirteen. One that tells of events which brought the changelings into existence, and the need for the last eight chapters, more or less.


----------

