# Presenting MC through their own imagination



## Tella (Aug 5, 2017)

UPDATED VERSION FURTHER DOWN THIS PAGE!


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## The Fantastical (Aug 5, 2017)

I think that it is fine. I have seen it done before and it has worked. Not in a fantasy I don't think, but in plenty of fiction novels.


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## The Fantastical (Aug 5, 2017)

> That man-boy was good, everything about him vouched for that. He had nothing but a grey stubble on his head, a parody on Buddhist monks, and only a true nut would wear shorts on such a cold night as this. Busted nose, too; a trademark among warriors.
> 
> "Should've killed you then and there." said the roach.
> 
> ...



As for critiquing the actual piece, it was very good up until the POV change. I would keep it in the boys POV, less chat back from the "foe" too or at least edit it to be more his reaction to the imagined dialogue. 



> The broom *lashed* out of Alphonse' grip to the source of his surprise. The young man who dodged it*crunched* his brows at him. "Sure. Certain you don't wanna even hear it?"



You used the wrong word, try pulled, grabbed, snatched, yanked, hauled rather than lashed. Lashed is used more to describe being his with something or having someone "lashing" out at you, she lashed out at me, I lashed out at her, I lashed out at the wall... 

As for crunched... I have always thought that eyebrows scrunch rather than crunch. Crunch sounds like - I crunched my fingers in the door.


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## Tella (Aug 5, 2017)

Aha! Thank you for your time.

Will make sure to change *lashed *and *crunched*.

My issue with keeping the POV in this scene is that I want to introduce my MC through the eyes of the roach. How would you suggest I go about using the same description of the MC but from his own POV? Also, what _exactly_ about changing to the roach for a paragraph do you find problematic? I keep hearing that but no one gives a solid reason.

What more way on implying that the roach is actually MC talking to himself is dialogue. Tell me if it sounds okay, something along the lines of:

"Huh! Who's the fool now, cockroach?"
"Well, you _are _talking to yourself, so..."
"You deceptive machinations will not work on me, roach!"
"Jesus christ..."


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## The Fantastical (Aug 5, 2017)

Tella said:


> My issue with keeping the POV in this scene is that I want to introduce my MC through the eyes of the roach. How would you suggest I go about using the same description of the MC but from his own POV?



I would maybe introduce it in a later segment or use the moment to rather than him tell us what he sees himself as. The image we hold of ourselves does not always reflect the outside but it does say a lot about us. Is he the dashing hero? The road weary but noble knight? Tell us that. An example - 

_He stood tall, every line of his body telling a story of skill and training. He eyed the beast as he ran a hand over his head feeling the stubble on his head, a mark of his rank and the order of which he belonged. A busted nose too was a trademark among the warriors of his order. Never did they back away from a fight. 
_
Also, just a side note, how you have the description now pulls the reader out of his imagination and into the real world. You want to end the moment of being in his mind when the other kid pulls the broom from him. So rather find a way to describe him as he sees himself when he is being the hero in his head.  



> Also, what _exactly_ about changing to the roach for a paragraph do you find problematic? I keep hearing that but no one gives a solid reason.



For me personally, it pulled me out of the character's mind, making the cockroach speaking, not a part of his imaginings but rather a thing that cockroaches actually do in his world. By putting the reader in the POV of the imaginary adversaries mind you are giving it a reality that as I said, does not reflect the obvious reality that it is all in the MC's head. 



> What more way on implying that the roach is actually MC talking to himself is dialogue. Tell me if it sounds okay, something along the lines of:
> 
> "Huh! Who's the fool now, cockroach?"
> "Well, you _are _talking to yourself, so..."
> ...



The first line is good, the rest not so much - 

_"Huh! Who's the fool now, cockroach?"_ - This is just the right amount of the MC, in full battle mode, speaking to out-loud his imagines and yet lets us know what he is seeing in his mind. 

_"Well, you are talking to yourself, so..." -_ This pulls us too far out of the moment and the character's mind. While we need to know that what is happening is in his imagination, we still need his belief that it is real to feel it and engage. 

_"You deceptive machinations will not work on me, roach!"_ - This one has the same issues as the second line, but less so. With a little re-working it could work. 

_"Jesus __christ__..."_ - This one doesn't really paint an image for the reader.


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## Jay Greenstein (Aug 5, 2017)

> The beast lay menacingly quiet, its sudden presence in his circle too intimate for comfort.


When you read this you know who/what a beast is. When you read this you know what "menacingly quiet" means. When you read this you know where we are in time and space, what "sudden" means, who "he" is, and the size of the circle. what it is, and why it's there.  And because you do it makes sense. The reader has  not a clue because you've given them no context. So at best, this is data, to be memorized and retained until you give context. Doesn't it make more sense to provide that context as it's read?  You might argue to read on and all will be made clear. Unfortunately, readers won't.





> He was a fool for breaking vigil, in a sitting position of all times, and now he had to pay by facing this monstrosity.


So to the initial confusion we add: Vigil? What in the hell is a vigil in terms of _this_ story?





> It was then that he observed the weapon resting on the wall, a slender, wooden beauty.


He "observed it?" First: don't try to be "literary," and use language chosen to impress. But of more importance, if he put it there he would know, and reach for it without thought. And if he didn't, the man has been keeping vigil, and so has been there for some time, so he cannot "discover it." He would know where it is.  

In short, instead of presenting the story as he sees it, you're talking about it in the voice of the narrator instead of making the reader live it in real-time.  As for the internal soliloquies they are not thoughts, because no one thinks of themself as "he."





> Gotta be quick, he thought, quick but not sudden, sharp yet not predictable.


As presented, the man is in danger. He has to move quickly. If he has any brains he knows that. And in that situation, _no one_ would think that they have to be quick. They would act. More than that, while you italicized this as a thought, the words are, clearly, coming from the narrator, not his thoughts.

So in the end, no, it doesn't work. But it's not because of some failing in you, or a matter of talent. It's that you're missing the tricks of how to begin a scene and present the kind of data you're trying to slip in through the internals in this piece. There's a lot they don't tell us about writing fiction in our school years. In fact, pretty much everything, because they were training us to be useful to employers, not professional fiction writers.

Remember all the reports and essays we had to write? They require business writing skills. Fiction requires a different approach.  But that's fixable. And in the end, if you want your writing to seem like that of a pro, you need to know what a pro knows. So head for the local library system and devour a few good books on the tricks of the trade. You can find lots of articles online, some mine. But my view is to go to the pros. Check the views of successful writers, teachers, and publishing pros.

My personal suggestion is to look for the name Dwight Swain, Jack Bickham, or Debra Dixon on the cover as a starting point. 

Hang in there, and keep on writing.


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## Tella (Aug 6, 2017)

Thank you both so much for the extensive feedbacks!

I do have a few points of technical arguments, such as that the italics are actually the work of the website and not me, which I did not notice before (and have since fixed).

One point of contention I must bring up is about 'observe'. It might be due to my non-English origins but to me, the word is not high caliber at all. 'Observe' is a slightly higher form of 'notice' in this context. Of course, there may be innuendos varying from synonym to synonym, but I would by no means regard 'observe' as literary or meant to impress. The other point you made about him knowing that the broom is three I do agree with, though. I better use 'remembered' instead of 'observed'.

Regarding context: I do agree with you that there is not enough detail on the physical setting of this encounter. My thinking process on this was that this is only a short piece of fancy that is crucial for the MC's characterization but no so much for anything else. Maybe some comedy. I did set up the hour: night, and what the 'beast' looks like. I intentionally avoided saying it's a cockroach for comedic purposes and revelation. Would you say that saying straight away that it's a roach or to describe it as a roach without saying the word is better?

English is my second language. Here in Israel schools really don't teach writing, so I had to come up with everything by myself, so as long as you can actually understand everything I wrote I'm happy. 

I will make sure to break my head over some pro-writing books. In fact, I do have books by Donald Maass and James Scott Bell. I also have the Elements of Fictions series and Write Great Fiction. Do you hold these in high regard?


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## Tella (Aug 6, 2017)

UPDATED VERSION: 
I want to characterize my MC superficially through his own imagination. Tell me if you learn anything about him. Also, I used to have the habit of writing unreadable scenes, so feedback on that would be most welcome.

Experiment: I'm gonna try two versions. The first is my attempt at a more didactic writing. The second is shallow but clearly written. I'd love to hear your thoughts. 

Version One:
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The beast lay menacingly quiet, its sudden presence too intimate for comfort.

He stuck out his tongue and shuddered. It had its stick-like legs beset by rows of bristles. Scaly wings clutched upon its back and could spread at any second. Worst of all, the wriggling maw, antlers blacker than the shadows they had pierced, the twin abysses of its eyes that he felt peered into his soul.

It was then that he recalled the weapon resting by the staircase wall. A slender, wooden beauty with a deadly end. Deadly, that is, to the beast, and more importantly, within a hand's reach.

Gotta be quick, quick but not sudden, sharp yet not predictable. The second he moves it moves and if it sets upon him he is at best in for some ticklish torture, at worst… he didn't wish to know. But he had nothing to fear, had he, for was he not the battle-ready Alphonse after all?

Alphonse held his breath as he rolled, hand stretched toward the broom. In a swift turnaround he managed to both seize the shaft and aim the fibered end at his opponent. "Huh! Who's the fool now, cockroach?"

The cockroach did not move. Its feelers wriggled in confusion. How could it mess up so badly? On a closer look the roach began to notice things. This man-boy was different, had nothing but a grey stubble on his head, and only a true nut would wear shorts on a cold night as this. Busted nose, too; a trademark among warriors or clumsy fools who bump their faces onto things.

"Should've killed you then and there." said the roach.

"Should'a, didn't."

The two locked eyes, the roach at that parody on Buddhist monks, Alphonse at his tiny, mushy foe.

The duel began. First the roach charged ahead, zigzagging with purpose. Alphonse stuck to defense. By maneuvering his mighty broom as a mirror to the roach he could ward off its continuous attacks, not without jumping here and there to keep his distance. Once, the furry menace glued itself into the broom's shaft and made a scuttle for his fingertips, but years of battle-savvy on the common roach had taught Alphonse to shake the critter off when it happens.

By the time the roach came to it had realized two things: it was groveling on its back and above it loomed its imminent demise in the form of a slippers-wearing foot and the stoic features of its extirpator's face.

"Last words?"

The roach's laugh was hoarse and bloody. "At least I die knowing I didn't pretend having chitchat with a bug."

Alphonse said nothing, but his foot yet threatened to crush down. Finally he stepped away. No sooner had the roach's brain finished assessing why than the next it knew was a gush of wind succeeded by the fibered tip of a broom. And so borne off with a homerun the roach shot into the stars.

Alphonse was impressed with his own strike. "Got to consider a baseball career." The roach's final words persisted in his mind. "Wonder what it meant by that."

"What who meant by what?" said a voice. The broom jerked out of Alphonse' grip to the source of his surprise. A young man who casually dodged it scrunched his brows at him.

I am aware of the head hopping. I am no fan of it but this is the only place in the story where I want to use it.

Version Two:
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The beast had surprised him out of nowhere. One moment he was sitting by himself on the stairs, watching the adjacent celebration. The next moment that thing appeared beside him, only a meter or two away.

He stuck out his tongue and shuddered. It had stick-like legs beset by rows of bristles. Scaly wings which could spread at any second clutched firmly to its back. Worst of all were its moving mouth and feelers, and the black depths of its eyes.

The weapon rested by the staircase wall to his right, opposite to the beast. It was a slender, wooden beauty with a deadly end. Deadly, that is, to the beast, and more importantly, within a hand's reach.

Gotta be quick, quick but not sudden, sharp but not predictable. The second he moved it moved and if it set upon him he was at best in for some ticklish torture, at worst… he didn't wish to know.

He held his breath as he rolled, hand stretched toward the broom. In a swift turnaround he managed to both seize the shaft and aim the weapon's fibers at his opponent. "Huh! Who's the fool now, cockroach?"

The cockroach did not move. Its feelers stirred.

"Should've killed you then and there," it said.

"Should'a. Didn't."

The two locked eyes. A rush of wind disturbed the silence. It combed the gray stubble on his head and his legs that were exposed under his shorts. His busted nose was aching as if to warn him to be careful. Of course he would be careful. He was the battle-ready Alphonse after all. 

The duel began. First the roach charged ahead, zigzagging with purpose. Alphonse stuck to defense. By maneuvering his broom as a mirror to the roach he could ward off its continuous attacks, jumping here and there to keep his distance. Once, the roach glued itself into the broom's shaft and made a scuttle for his fingertips, but years of battle-savvy on the common roach had taught Alphonse to shake the critter off when it happens. The roach fell on its back wriggling, trying to flip over. Alphonse' slippers already hovered above it, threatening to crush down.

"Last words?"

The roach laughed. "At least I didn't pretend a bug could talk."

Alphonse said nothing. He smiled and pulled his foot away and back to the ground.

The roach started laughing again, "I knew you didn't have it in you." it said, but it stopped when Alphonse raised the broom like a baseball bat and without another word shot the cockroach to the stars.

Alphonse was impressed with his own strike. "Gotta consider a baseball career." The roach's final words persisted in his mind. "Wonder what it meant by that."


Spoilers: The setting has (obviously) nothing at all to do with fantasy. It all takes place in a rural town by the sea where our protagonist learns to develop enterprise as a cog in the social machine. In the following scene context is set up.


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## Undutchable121 (Aug 15, 2017)

Jumping on this thread only just now, so I haven't read the previous versions. Checking your previous questions and comments I would definitely go for version two; it feels cleaner, reads nicer and I noticed that you achieve the same effect after the second to third paragraph. Essentially, the moment you transfer the words from "weapon" to "broom" and "monster" to "cockroach", you indicate that there is a juxtaposition that might not be completely truthful.  

My issue with the first version is that it's confusing: for instance, you mention "He stuck out his tongue"; in the first version I find it difficult to read if this means the monster or somebody else? In the second version, this is clearer. 

I feel that if you want to create more intrigue and mystery, reveal the broom and cockroach much much later. If it needs to show something about the fantasy mind of the principal character, I think you can make it big and fantastical, until the end, when you pull back the curtains (maybe through an outside POV)? 

I feel some of the writing is a bit obtuse and convoluted, and it would serve best to go over it, spruce it up and make it cleaner.  Anyway, a couple of my thoughts. An intriguing concept, keep at it!


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## Jay Greenstein (Aug 15, 2017)

> 'Observe' is a slightly higher form of 'notice' in this context.


You miss the point. It's not the word, it's that you, someone not on the scene or in the story is on stage talking _to_ the reader. You're "telling" the reader a story. That can only inform. But your reader is seeking to be entertained. What should happen is that the character observes and reacts, as the reader's avatar. After all, you have a stage full of actors, so let them act, instead of standing around while the narrator talks _about_ the story.In this case the man already knows the weapon is there, because it's been there the whole time. So if he sees a threat he acts, using what's handy and appropriate. He lives the story, but you aren't there, so you can only talk _about_ it. And every time you, the author appear on stage you kill all sense of realism, still the scene clock, and kill any momentum the scene may have built.


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## Jack of all trades (Aug 16, 2017)

This was an interesting exercise but I don't really recommend it in general. I also read the original, but didn't comment.

The problem I had with the original, and to lesser degree the new versions, is it's not really clear that he's imagining the conversation.

Now I know someone with schizophrenia who has, on occasion, actual conversations with people who aren't there. I see a difference between that and imaginary conversations, which may be unusual, so the problem could be that I'm not a typical reader.

Kind of funny ending, wondering what was meant by the last remark.

Anyway, good luck with your writing.


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## Tella (Sep 8, 2017)

Thank you, everyone, for the constructive feedback  Jack of all trades, Jay Greenstein, Undutchable121.


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## Euripides (Oct 6, 2017)

I prefer the style of version 2. 

And I agree with Jack of all Trades, the fact the conversation is imaginary/in his head isn't clear.


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