# Is this a bad attitude to have as a writer?



## ironpony (Jan 30, 2020)

I showed my script to some people to see what they think, and they will mention part with the plot they have a problem, but then if I saw that I've shown it around for a long time now and nobody mentioned that before, so it's too late to fix that that late now, then they react like maybe I have a bad attitude about it or being lazy.  Does it sound like it though?


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## luckyscars (Jan 30, 2020)

You should be shutting up and listening when having your work critiqued. Nobody wants you to belittle their feedback.


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## Xander416 (Jan 30, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> You should be shutting up and listening when having your work critiqued. Nobody wants you to belittle their feedback.


Depends on whether the feedback is constructive or destructive. If the feedback is only meant to belittle me as an author rather than help improve my work, you can bet I'm going to disregard it at best and tell the critic to F off at the worst.


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## luckyscars (Jan 30, 2020)

Xander416 said:


> Depends on whether the feedback is constructive or destructive. If the feedback is only meant to belittle me as an author rather than help improve my work, you can bet I'm going to disregard it at best and tell the critic to F off at the worst.



Readers don't owe you help to improve your work and reacting angrily to any feedback is unprofessional.


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## Xander416 (Jan 30, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> Readers don't owe you help to improve your work and reacting angrily to any feedback is unprofessional.


That wasn't quite what I meant. I know readers don't owe me help in improving, but the act of critiquing often serves that purpose even if unintentional. For example, if I create a hero cowboy named Jack that isn't well received and readers say why they don't like him, that helps me to improve even if they don't intend it. But I see a difference between just not liking a body of work and not liking the person creating it. That's why I noted constructive and destructive feedback instead of positive and negative, because whereas even negative feedback can result in improvement, destructive feedback is meant to try and shame the person into not doing something they like because you think they aren't good at it. For that reason, I'm going to tune out the guy that says Jack is a terrible character and I'm a terrible writer who should never be allowed to pick up a pen again.

Like I said, though, the latter is a worst case scenario. In most cases, I'll just disregard such people entirely because they're of no help to me in improving my craft. Professionalism, much like respect, works both ways.


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## Sam (Jan 30, 2020)

If you don't listen to a genuine issue brought up by a critiquer or a beta reader, you're not having a bad attitude or being lazy. 
You're being unprofessional.


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## Xander416 (Jan 30, 2020)

I think we could give better input here if the OP told us what the scene is and what kind of issue the critiquing parties have with it.


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## epimetheus (Jan 30, 2020)

I wonder if in this case it might be a matter of getting too much advice?

Ironpony, just from what i've seen on this forum you seem very eager to get feedback and try hard incorporate it. But if you ask enough people you'll start to get contradictory advice - because different people have different ideas about what they like in a story. 

You could limit to showing your work to a few people you know and respect. Or you could show it to everyone under the sun and be prepared to make decisions about which advice to follow. I've not got feedback from betas yet, but it seems like the first option would be the simpler choice.


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## Cephus (Jan 30, 2020)

You don't have to like the feedback, you don't have to use the feedback, but you have to listen to the feedback. Don't argue with people. They think what they think. Thank them for their  time and then do whatever you're going to do.


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## indianroads (Jan 30, 2020)

IMO - what critique / beta readers offer is an opinion, which is something you should consider. I don't take feedback that I get from anyone as _marching orders_, instead I consider what they say, look at the area they take issue with, then decide if I should make a change (not necessarily the change they are suggesting). If several reviewers point to the same area, then that is something we should study *closely*. Even then though, it's our work and we're the one to decide.

Writing is art. We are artists. If we were painters instead and someone were to review Picasso's work hoping to see something by Renoir - well, their critique wouldn't have much validity. We should all be immensely grateful that others have taken the time to read and give feedback because doing so isn't a trivial thing, it takes time and energy.


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## ironpony (Jan 30, 2020)

Oh I would say the feedback is definitely constructive, it's just I feel that if I already got feed back on a certain part of the plot and took the advice from a couple of readers on how to correct it, then I shouldn't have to correct it again, when seeking advice on other parts of the plot.  I wasn't reacting angrily or anything, it's just I feel that once a part of the plot is corrected, there are only so many times I can correct it, and you have to move on to another part of the plot, without coming back and correcting the same part again, with new readers.  Unless I am wrong?


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## EntrepreneurRideAlong (Jan 30, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh I would say the feedback is definitely constructive, it's just I feel that if I already got feed back on a certain part of the plot and took the advice from a couple of readers on how to correct it, then I shouldn't have to correct it again, when seeking advice on other parts of the plot.  I wasn't reacting angrily or anything, it's just I feel that once a part of the plot is corrected, there are only so many times I can correct it, and you have to move on to another part of the plot, without coming back and correcting the same part again, with new readers.  Unless I am wrong?



Was it a major correction that would result in re-writing the whole plot? Or was it something simple that other readers didn't notice?


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## MagaliQueen (Jan 30, 2020)

Like others said, you don't have to do what these people are telling you to do, but you can't argue with them. 
Perhaps it would help if you told us what part of the plot they're criticizing.


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## ironpony (Jan 30, 2020)

Oh not sure, if it would effect the whole plot I guess it would depend on what the solutions are.



MagaliQueen said:


> Like others said, you don't have to do what these people are telling you to do, but you can't argue with them.
> Perhaps it would help if you told us what part of the plot they're criticizing.



It was mostly this one so far that I talked about before, the motivation of the villains:

https://www.writingforums.com/threa...my-villains-have-to-have-a-tragic-backstories

That's one that came up so far, but the couple of readers I asked are going over the rest of the potential problems.

There is one thing one writer told me so far when it comes to story elements.  He said that in a story, you should be able to remove any character's story elements and it shouldn't cause the story to collapse, accept if it's the protagonist's.  Do you think he is right and any non protagonist story element in a well written story is removable?


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## JohnCalliganWrites (Jan 30, 2020)

ironpony said:


> There is one thing one writer told me so far when it comes to story elements.  He said that in a story, you should be able to remove any character's story elements and it shouldn't cause the story to collapse, accept if it's the protagonist's.  Do you think he is right and any non protagonist story element in a well written story is removable?



You should make a thread about this.


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## Sir-KP (Jan 30, 2020)

You _showed_ them first, right? Then you're obligated to just keep it quiet.

I don't know how you said it or how it sounded like, but frankly speaking, if I were that guy, I wouldn't bother calling you lazy and bad attitude. 

Again, I have no idea how you said it and the way I'm carrying myself when giving feedback may be different than other people in general.


My friend used to tell me I should write my (sci-fi) protagonist to have ability to turn into green monster, because he liked the idea of mutant monster. 

I didn't ask him in the first place. I didn't respond to him. Neither did I make my protagonist into that.


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## luckyscars (Jan 31, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh I would say the feedback is definitely constructive, it's just I feel that if I already got feed back on a certain part of the plot and took the advice from a couple of readers on how to correct it, then I shouldn't have to correct it again, when seeking advice on other parts of the plot.  I wasn't reacting angrily or anything, it's just I feel that once a part of the plot is corrected, there are only so many times I can correct it, and you have to move on to another part of the plot, without coming back and correcting the same part again, with new readers.  Unless I am wrong?



First of all, not all readers are equal. If ten readers said something was good but one reader whose advice I had reason to trust said otherwise, it wouldn't matter what had been told before.

Second, your statement "there are only so many times I can correct it" is concerning (I mean, I don't really care, but it should concern you). You sound like one of those kids who can't figure out a math problem in their homework and finally slams down the pen saying "WELL I'VE TRIED AND THAT'S THE BEST I CAN DO SO LEAVE ME ALONE!" 

Nope, wrong attitude. If the advice is genuinely good, you should _want _to take it, even if it is inconvenient, even if it means you have to rewrite one, ten, a hundred pages. This isn't about the destination, it's about the journey.


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## ironpony (Jan 31, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> First of all, not all readers are equal. If ten readers said something was good but one reader whose advice I had reason to trust said otherwise, it wouldn't matter what had been told before.
> 
> Second, your statement "there are only so many times I can correct it" is concerning (I mean, I don't really care, but it should concern you). You sound like one of those kids who can't figure out a math problem in their homework and finally slams down the pen saying "WELL I'VE TRIED AND THAT'S THE BEST I CAN DO SO LEAVE ME ALONE!"
> 
> Nope, wrong attitude. If the advice is genuinely good, you should _want _to take it, even if it is inconvenient, even if it means you have to rewrite one, ten, a hundred pages. This isn't about the destination, it's about the journey.



Oh okay thanks, but if I did that, then it would never be finished though.  Shouldn't you just finish it one day as oppose to constantly changing it based on other reader's opinions?  Even before on here I was told that it will never get done and I should finish it soon though.  But I also didn't say it like leave it alone, I just said that that part has been rewritten and considered finished already, so let's move on to the parts that are not.  That's not the same as having a leave me alone attitude, is it?

Like I was told before on here, that once readers have given you advice on certain parts of the plot, then it's best to take the advice once, apply it and move on after that.  But then if I show it to different readers and they have a problem with those new changes, then I therefore should ignore their advice, since I was told to only apply advice once, unless that's not good?


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## Fiender (Jan 31, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thanks, but if I did that, then it would never be finished though.  Shouldn't you just finish it one day as oppose to constantly changing it based on other reader's opinions?  Even before on here I was told that it will never get done and I should finish it soon though.  But I also didn't say it like leave it alone, I just said that that part has been rewritten and considered finished already, so let's move on to the parts that are not.  That's not the same as having a leave me alone attitude, is it?
> 
> Like I was told before on here, that once readers have given you advice on certain parts of the plot, then it's best to take the advice once, apply it and move on after that.  But then if I show it to different readers and they have a problem with those new changes, then I therefore should ignore their advice, since I was told to only apply advice once, unless that's not good?



Knowing what criticisms to use and which to politely ignore is a very difficult skill to learn. I don't think there are any absolutes. You should not ignore feedback because you've "changed this part once already", especially if your changes _didn't work_. It's hard for me to give specific advice without knowing specifics of the story, but let's say this hypothetically:

Your first beta reader says your chapter one is boring, and your story's climax is over too fast.
Based on their criticism, you spice up the first chapter and expand on the climax. Cool. Then you give your updated story to reader #2.

Your second beta reader says chapter one is still boring. I don't believe ignoring this critique is a good idea. Just because you tried to fix something doesn't mean you did it perfectly. In this case, you will have to read the specific criticisms, and if your readers don't offer any, try to start a conversation to suss out why they felt the way they did (all while being respectful of their opinions, of course.)

Now, let's say your second beta reader then says your climax dragged on too long. This advice directly contradicts your changes based on a prior readers comments. For this, use your own judgment. Does this reader's criticism make sense? Did your changes not fix a more deep-rooted issue with that part of the book? Learning to balance feedback based on what you're trying to accomplish with your book is an entire skill itself, and one that needs exercising if you want to revise your book and make it as good as possible.

And whatever you do, do _not_ tell your betas whether or not you'll use their advice, even specific pieces of it. Even if the readers know, academically, that you're not obliged to follow their comments as gospel, it can be dejecting and make them less likely to help you in the future.

As for when your book is "done" and ready to be submitted, that's also something that's entirely up to you. Even if your readers generally love the book, almost everyone is going to point out one flaw here, or suggest a change there. It's also true that with practice, you'll be a better writer next year than you are this year, so why not keep at it? The thing is, you can never hold yourself to the standard of "future you". No artist can, otherwise nothing ever would get done! Work on it until you feel a strong hope it could get published, and until your readers are more positive on the work than not. Even if you submit it to 100 agents/publishers and it fails, you'll likely learn something in the process, and perhaps the next book will do better. (And, with your foot in the door, maybe a publisher would look at your previous work, too). 

Welp, that was a doozy for my first post on this forum. Hope some of my ramblings help!


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## luckyscars (Jan 31, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thanks, but if I did that, then it would never be finished though.  Shouldn't you just finish it one day as oppose to constantly changing it based on other reader's opinions?  Even before on here I was told that it will never get done and I should finish it soon though.



That's the problem with writing by committee, as you have been told routinely on here for _years._

Try what many writers try. Finish it first. Completely finish it, edit it, everything. Then have _one _person read it and give you their opinion. Assess whether you want to make changes or not. Then have _another _person read it and give you their opinion. Assess whether you want to make changes or not. Keep going until _you're _happy with what you have.



> But I also didn't say it like leave it alone, I just said that that part has been rewritten and considered finished already, so let's move on to the parts that are not.  That's not the same as having a leave me alone attitude, is it?



No, it's worse than that. You are wasting their time by having them read something when you don't care about their feedback.



> But then if I show it to different readers and they have a problem with those new changes, then I therefore should ignore their advice, since I was told to only apply advice once, unless that's not good?



Not sure who told you that, but I'd steer clear of them like corona-virus.


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## bdcharles (Jan 31, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Shouldn't you just finish it one day as oppose to constantly changing it based on other reader's opinions?  Even before on here I was told that it will never get done and I should finish it soon though.  But I also didn't say it like leave it alone, I just said that that part has been rewritten and considered finished already, so let's move on to the parts that are not.  That's not the same as having a leave me alone attitude, is it?
> 
> Like I was told before on here, that once readers have given you advice on certain parts of the plot, then it's best to take the advice once, apply it and move on after that.  But then if I show it to different readers and they have a problem with those new changes, then I therefore should ignore their advice, since I was told to only apply advice once, unless that's not good?



Only you can decide what's the best approach for you. A general rule of thumb is: if person A tells me to change something and person B tells me change it back, it's a matter of taste and I use my own judgment and preference. But if multiple people tell me to change the same thing I'll consider it. But you have to know what you want. Know your process. If you would rather just finish it, not edit to within microns of perfection, then take steps to do that. If you like to tinker, then tinker. Whatever you do, you can be sure there will always be people telling you you're wrong. Vet them. Do you like their writing? Do you trust their opinion? Do you like them personally, and their attitude and approach to critique? Those things hold water with me - they're part of my process. Hopefully there will be a handful that get it. With that in mind, endlessly chasing down as wide a net of feedback as you can is a mug's game because you'll never get full consensus. All you can then ask is: is this in keeping with my vision? If yes then it stays; if no then it doesn't. There is, on writers, whether it's for screen or page or stage, an assumption or even an expectation of expertise, a sense that in a sea of conflicting opinion you will know rightly or wrongly what is going to work and are willing to stand by it. Without that you will mightily struggle.


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## ironpony (Jan 31, 2020)

> That's the problem with writing by committee, as you have been told routinely on here for _years.
> 
> Try what many writers try. Finish it first. Completely finish it, edit it, everything. Then have one person read it and give you their opinion. Assess whether you want to make changes or not. Then have another person read it and give you their opinion. Assess whether you want to make changes or not. Keep going until you're happy with what you have._



Oh okay thanks, well it's all finished after a few drafts and want to write more drafts, but do not want to keep changing everything, otherwise it will not get done.  But here is the paradox is, how do you not write by committee, but at the same time, willing to take others' advice though?


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## luckyscars (Jan 31, 2020)

ironpony said:


> But here is the paradox is, how do you not write by committee, but at the same time, willing to take others' advice though?



It's not a paradox. Listening to feedback doesn't mean you mindlessly do everything people suggest. You're the writer, you decide. The point of feedback is to make _you _think about _your _story.


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## indianroads (Jan 31, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> It's not a paradox. Listening to feedback doesn't mean you mindlessly do everything people suggest. You're the writer, you decide. The point of feedback is to make _you _think about _your _story.



Agree.
Outside input gives you a different perspective that *may* plant a seed and give your work greater depth. It's the author's decision of whether or not that new point of view is valid.


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## Kyle R (Jan 31, 2020)

To your early readers: Express gratitude for any and all feedback you get.

Then, by yourself: Consider all feedback. Reject any that doesn't for you. Apply any feedback that _does_ work you.

Finally: move _forward_ with the process, that much closer to your final product.

(Everyone is different, of course, but for me, "moving forward" at that point would mean _no more feedback on the story itself_. At that point, it would be a matter of editing. The story is set. Now it's an issue of polishing each individual scene ...)

What you seem to be doing is getting feedback on the story, then making changes, then getting feedback on the story, then making changes, then getting feedback on the story (and on, and on).

This cycle will never end if you keeping asking for feedback, because every story in existence can be rewritten a thousand different ways. If you keep asking for suggestions on how to change the story, you _will_ keep getting them. Always and forever.

That's why it's important to remind yourself to move forward. Otherwise, you'll keep spinning your wheels in the same step of the process, with no logical end. :grief:


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## ironpony (Jan 31, 2020)

Oh okay thanks, and that's just it, I don't want to have a bad attitude or give that impression but if two readers or more all tell me there is a problem, but all have different ways to handle it, I have to pick one, and commit to it, and cannot do all the solutions, so what do you do then...


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## InTheThirdPerson (Jan 31, 2020)

ironpony said:


> so it's too late to fix that that late now



A lot of good feedback in this thread, but I just wanted to comment on this part of your original post.

When there is a problem with a story, it's really never "too late" to address it. Sometimes manuscripts are edited right up until they day they go to print. Movies get reshoots to fix problems. (If you're George Lucas, you'll never stop trying to "fix" your work no matter what...)

If the goal is to just tell a story, then fixing problems really doesn't matter.

However, if the goal is to tell the best possible story you can, then that must mean being willing to completely destroy it if necessary and rebuild from the ground up -- if that's what is in the best interest of telling the best story. Obviously we all hope it never comes to that, but whether you spot a problem early in the process or someone points out something late in the process, whether it's a minor issue or a major catastrophe, I think the best thing for you to do is to look at the issue as honestly and objectively, and take it as seriously as you can. 

Taking it seriously doesn't mean automatically dropping everything and fixing it. But it does mean giving it some deep thought that is, again, as objective as you can be so you can figure out if or how much merit there is to the criticism.


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## Sir-KP (Jan 31, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thanks, and that's just it, I don't want to have a bad attitude or give that impression but if two readers or more all tell me there is a problem, but all have different ways to handle it, I have to pick one, and commit to it, and cannot do all the solutions, so what do you do then...



You already got the answers:



luckyscars said:


> *Listening to feedback doesn't mean you mindlessly do everything people suggest. You're the writer, you decide. The point of feedback is to make you think about your story.*





Kyle R said:


> *Consider all feedback. Reject any that doesn't for you. Apply any feedback that does work you.*
> 
> 
> This cycle will never end if you keeping asking for feedback,* because every story in existence can be rewritten a thousand different ways.* If you keep asking for suggestions on how to change the story, you will keep getting them. Always and forever.
> ...


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## EthanWarwright (Jan 31, 2020)

Be glad you got the advice at all. I am desperate for feedback of any kind at the moment.


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## luckyscars (Feb 1, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thanks, and that's just it, I don't want to have a bad attitude or give that impression but if two readers or more all tell me there is a problem, but all have different ways to handle it, I have to pick one, and commit to it, and cannot do all the solutions, so what do you do then...



You don't have to pick one. 

You can pick none if you want. You can _ignore _advice.

Or, maybe, a hybrid: Something that nobody actually suggested but which you came to yourself using their feedback...

Example...

*Reader Ronald says:* "Make the villain have one eye, he needs to be scarier"

*Reader Dawn says*: "Make the villain have three eyes, he needs to be funnier"

*Writer ironpony decides*: To make the villain have zero eyes. This way the villain is scary, because a person with no eyes is _scary_...but he also walks into things a lot, because he cannot see, and this is _funny._ 

*ironpony has now made reader Ronald AND reader Dawn happy by fulfilling what both of them wanted without allowing them to write his book for him.

ironpony has done this using his own ideas, not other people's. 

Be like ironpony!
*


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## ironpony (Feb 1, 2020)

Yep that's true I could take none, or a hybrid as well, depending.  Thanks!



InTheThirdPerson said:


> A lot of good feedback in this thread, but I just wanted to comment on this part of your original post.
> 
> When there is a problem with a story, it's really never "too late" to address it. Sometimes manuscripts are edited right up until they day they go to print. Movies get reshoots to fix problems. (If you're George Lucas, you'll never stop trying to "fix" your work no matter what...)
> 
> ...



Well of course I want to tell the best possible story I can, but I feel I eventually have to call parts of it done and move onto other parts, otherwise it won't ever get finished or so I thought.  But yes want it to be the best I can.  If it's an easy fix I can apply it, but if it's the kind of change that means I have to change everything else around, then I am not sure, if it's something that's already been dealt with.  What do you think?


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## luckyscars (Feb 1, 2020)

ironpony said:


> If it's an easy fix I can apply it, but if it's the kind of change that means I have to change everything else around, then I am not sure, if it's something that's already been dealt with. What do you think?



No, no. What do _you _think?


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## ironpony (Feb 1, 2020)

I guess I personal think that I can't keep on changing the same plot points forever, every time someone new reads it, because then it will never be finished then.


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## Bayview (Feb 1, 2020)

Listen to feedback or don't listen to it, but if you're not going to listen to it then for god's sake STOP ASKING FOR IT. If you feel that something has gotten to the stage that you are no longer willing to make changes, then that's that. Let it go and don't waste people's time by asking their opinions of it.


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## ironpony (Feb 1, 2020)

Oh sorry, to give that impression.  What happened was I was asking for feedback on another part of the story, and then the reader talked about problems in another section, but thought I should already call that other section done, since it was covered by other readers previously.  So I wasn't asking for feedback on that particular section.  Unless that's still a bad attitude of me.


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## InTheThirdPerson (Feb 1, 2020)

ironpony said:


> If it's an easy fix I can apply it, but if it's the kind of change that means I have to change everything else around, then I am not sure, if it's something that's already been dealt with.  What do you think?



The worst reason to avoid fixing a part of your story is "because it's hard" or "it will be a lot of work."

If YOU think a change, no matter how big or how small, will improve your story, then it doesn't matter how much work it will be. The entire theme of the comments you've been getting here is to take in the feedback you've been getting on your work and figure out what has merit and what doesn't.

Don't judge suggestions based on "well, that's an easy fix."

Judge them on "Do I think solving this problem will improve my story?" How you solve it is up to you.


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## Cephus (Feb 1, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Well of course I want to tell the best possible story I can, but I feel I eventually have to call parts of it done and move onto other parts, otherwise it won't ever get finished or so I thought.  But yes want it to be the best I can.  If it's an easy fix I can apply it, but if it's the kind of change that means I have to change everything else around, then I am not sure, if it's something that's already been dealt with.  What do you think?



Eventually, you have to call the entire thing done and move on to other projects. It's entirely up to you what point that comes at. But it is useless, at least IMO, to run different parts past people who don't understand your entire story as a whole. It's why none of my beta readers ever see anything but a complete manuscript. You make the calls what parts of advice you want to take and what parts you want to reject. The decision is ultimately yours. So too is the success or failure of your work. Welcome to being a writer.


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## ironpony (Feb 1, 2020)

Oh okay thanks.  I showed them the whole thing, but didn't want to change the parts that were already addressed before with other readers, but only wanted to go over parts, not addressed yet.  Was that not a good way of doing things?

It's not because it's too hard or a lot of work, but because I feel that I have to move on to working on other parts of it, and getting it done.


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## luckyscars (Feb 1, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thanks.  I showed them the whole thing, but didn't want to change the parts that were already addressed before with other readers, but only wanted to go over parts, not addressed yet.  Was that not a good way of doing things?
> 
> It's not because it's too hard or a lot of work, but because I feel that I have to move on to working on other parts of it, and getting it done.



Great, you made a decision, now stick with it...or don't...or make an entirely new decision...or don't...or do and then change your mind....or don't change your mind...or do change your mind again...or throw the whole manuscript in the fire...or don't...or rewrite it from scratch...or don't...or rewrite three chapters...or six...or none...or ten...change it to present tense...or don't...rewrite your main character as a cannibal...or a wizard...or a fairy...or don't do any of these things...or just put it out there as it is...or don't....

Do you see why this whole topic is circular?


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## Tomkat (Feb 1, 2020)

Well, you don't have to give a feedback to the feedback. Right?

I mean, they tell you their impressions. You thanks them and take note of them (if not, why asking feedback) and move on.
Once you get back home, you put all the impressions together and the you decide if something needs fixing or not.

Disagreeing with a feedback, and I mean a feedback from a friend/relative, could make you lose that reader. Why? You make them feel stupid. You don't *value their opinion*.

Like Luckyscars said, these guys dont owe you a thing. They're helping you out.
Best thing is, "thank you! (big smile) you're awesome and you've been very helpful! (buy him/her a drink)."

So far, professionally, I am a chef.
People would come in my restaurant, eat the same exact thing and then: "it was too salty." Says someone out of nowhere.
I say ok, acknowledge that. Thanks.
I look around, I see other ten customers are eating the same thing and nobody seems in distress. If I want to make sure, I ask a couple of them, "was it too salty?"
One would answer me, "not at all, actually, no taste."
Ok... 
"Delicious"., says yet another. Awesome.
"You know what, I would put kimchi on it." Really? What are you talking about? ...Ok,thanks.
I then change question: "Have you eat enough? Are you full? Were your money well spent?"
"Still hungry"
"So so"
"Well, I could eat more..."
The day after, I enlarge the portion. Everyone's happy.
The occasional "too salty" or feedback alike, are a natural recurrence which, taken singularly, have no impact.

Same for you. If you don't see the issue presented to you by a single feedbacker (this is not a word), you don't change the script just to please this single reader.


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## ironpony (Feb 2, 2020)

Oh okay thanks, I think I understand.

Another example is, I was thinking of changing on character who is not a major character but a supporting character, from male to female.  However, one reader said it's not even worth changing, cause you would have to rewrite the character's entire behavior if you change the gender, and the character would make completely different decisions that would change the outcome of the plot.  Is it true though that if you change a character's gender, than every decision that character makes though is changed, just from a gender switch though?  I thought that if I change a character for male to female, than the only thing I would have to change is the word 'he' to 'she', especially since the character is only in three scenes and is a supporting character.  Unless the reader is write, and that switching the gender, changes everything about the character's decision making, based on gender alone?


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## InTheThirdPerson (Feb 2, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thanks, I think I understand.
> 
> Another example is, I was thinking of changing on character who is not a major character but a supporting character, from male to female.  However, one reader said it's not even worth changing, cause you would have to rewrite the character's entire behavior if you change the gender, and the character would make completely different decisions that would change the outcome of the plot.  Is it true though that if you change a character's gender, than every decision that character makes though is changed, just from a gender switch though?  I thought that if I change a character for male to female, than the only thing I would have to change is the word 'he' to 'she', especially since the character is only in three scenes and is a supporting character.  Unless the reader is write, and that switching the gender, changes everything about the character's decision making, based on gender alone?



I guess the question would be that if the impact this character has really makes no difference one way or the other regardless of gender, then what is your motivation for making the change?

If the motivation to swap genders is just because you want more representation in the story, but the character is so insignificant to the bigger picture that it literally doesn't matter whether the pronoun is "he" or "she," then the representation is hollow. But if you think your story is feeling too male-dominated and you want to introduce another perspective, then yes, you would need to do more than just change the pronouns. You would need to rethink this character and what their input would be from a female point of view.


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## ironpony (Feb 2, 2020)

Yes the reason would be is cause I want more representation.  Mainly, one of the villains is arrested, and needs a lawyer, and I thought of changing his lawyer to a woman.  But I was told that the rest of this section of the plot cannot be the same if the lawyer is a woman, cause she would be a different character, who would make different decisions then.  But would a female lawyer actually make different decisions than a male one, in court cases though?


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## InTheThirdPerson (Feb 2, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Yes the reason would be is cause I want more representation.  Mainly, one of the villains is arrested, and needs a lawyer, and I thought of changing his lawyer to a woman.  But I was told that the rest of this section of the plot cannot be the same if the lawyer is a woman, cause she would be a different character, who would make different decisions then.  But would a female lawyer actually make different decisions than a male one, in court cases though?



The better question is why bother to change the character to female if you're not going to make it matter that she's female?

These are the questions you need to be asking yourself as a writer. 

If a change is arbitrary, then it's probably (almost certainly) not a change that needs to be made.  Make your changes matter.


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## luckyscars (Feb 2, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Yes the reason would be is cause I want more representation.  Mainly, one of the villains is arrested, and needs a lawyer, and I thought of changing his lawyer to a woman.  But I was told that the rest of this section of the plot cannot be the same if the lawyer is a woman, cause she would be a different character, who would make different decisions then.  But would a female lawyer actually make different decisions than a male one, in court cases though?



You don’t need “representation”. You need to reflect reality consistently and accurately. There are female lawyers. There are also male lawyers. Picking the gender of a character who is a lawyer, therefore, is an open choice that you should make based on nothing more than what you envision and what effect you (and only you) would like to create with that particular character. The moment you start making decisions based on some imaginary quota, you are screwing yourself over.


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## ironpony (Feb 2, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> You don’t need “representation”. You need to reflect reality consistently and accurately. There are female lawyers. There are also male lawyers. Picking the gender of a character who is a lawyer, therefore, is an open choice that you should make based on nothing more than what you envision and what effect you (and only you) would like to create with that particular character. The moment you start making decisions based on some imaginary quota, you are screwing yourself over.



Oh so you are saying just pick one and nevermind giving reasons why?  That's what I was doing I thought though, but if the reader says the decision to change a character from male to female is a problem, then should I consider things differently?



InTheThirdPerson said:


> The better question is why bother to change the character to female if you're not going to make it matter that she's female?
> 
> These are the questions you need to be asking yourself as a writer.
> 
> If a change is arbitrary, then it's probably (almost certainly) not a change that needs to be made. Make your changes matter.



But I still need to pick a character's gender, even if the gender is not a point in the story right?  A minor character still needs a gender, right?


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## KenTR (Feb 2, 2020)

Regarding your choice of sex for the lawyer: your story is about the gang rape of multiple women, right?


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## ironpony (Feb 2, 2020)

Yes.  So after reading it over again, I thought maybe the gang would hire a female lawyer in order to look better if that makes sense?


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## KenTR (Feb 2, 2020)

Considering the subject matter, changing the gang's lawyer from a man to a woman means you will have to rewrite the character. Wouldn't you think there would be a conflict of interest for her? Why would she take such a case? 

You have a woman defending a gang of rapists. You're going to have to get into her head a little. Anything less would feel like an oversight. At least that's how I see it.


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## InTheThirdPerson (Feb 2, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh so you are saying just pick one and nevermind giving reasons why?



I'm pretty sure that's not anywhere close to what Luckyscars is saying.

Create your character based on what purpose they are going to serve in the story. Not just "I need a lawyer." Figure out what the lawyer going to bring because of WHO they are, not WHAT they are. Create a representation of a person, not an idea.

If your story is better served because a female lawyer brings a different perspective -- which you are willing to address -- than a male lawyer, then make the change. 

If you're not going to change a single thing other than the pronouns, then what's the point?


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## Bayview (Feb 2, 2020)

KenTR said:


> Considering the subject matter, changing the gang's lawyer from a man to a woman means you will have to rewrite the character. Wouldn't you think there would be a conflict of interest for her? Why would she take such a case?
> 
> You have a woman defending a gang of rapists. You're going to have to get into her head a little. Anything less would feel like an oversight. At least that's how I see it.



I'd like to think men find rape repugnant, too. I'd like to think female lawyers and male lawyers are equally able to separate their professional duty from their personal beliefs.

I'm not saying gender doesn't influence characterization, but if this is a minor character I'm not sure we need to get inside her head just to justify her decision to do her job. She's a defense lawyer. She defends criminals who commit horrible crimes, just like male defense lawyers do.


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## ironpony (Feb 2, 2020)

Oh I just thought it the change would be because of the gang's motivations, and if the gang thinks it might be a better idea to hire a female lawyer.  But the lawyer is not near as much of a major character, so I thought since she is a plot driven character, maybe I don't need to explain her reasons for taking, cause she is a lawyer and that's good enough for a minor character?  The gender change is about the gangs motivations for hiring I thought.

As for a conflict of interest for her, she could still take it if she wanted to, couldn't she?  I thought she was probably doing it for the money, if the gang was paying her a good price of defense, or at least that would be my conclusion.


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## InTheThirdPerson (Feb 2, 2020)

Ok, so earlier you said you wanted to change the character to a woman because you wanted more diversity / representation. Now you are saying you want to change it because the people charged with the crime feel a female lawyer will make them look better.

It's like you are moving the goal posts to either justify a decision you've made or to reject a suggestion.

It's your story. Do what you want.  Or don't do anything.


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## ironpony (Feb 3, 2020)

Well I was the second reason came to me in the writing.  But I think I see the point made earlier.  Is that a female lawyer would probably really be doing it for the money where as a male one is much more likely to go the extra mile in a defense?


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## InTheThirdPerson (Feb 3, 2020)

ironpony said:


> But I think I see the point made earlier.  Is that a female lawyer would probably really be doing it for the money where as a male one is much more likely to go the extra mile in a defense?



Literally no one said or implied that.

Lawyers take cases for all kinds of reasons. They turn down cases for all kinds of reasons. So why would this be your takeaway?


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## luckyscars (Feb 3, 2020)

Bayview said:


> I'd like to think men find rape repugnant, too. I'd like to think female lawyers and male lawyers are equally able to separate their professional duty from their personal beliefs.
> 
> I'm not saying gender doesn't influence characterization, but if this is a minor character I'm not sure we need to get inside her head just to justify her decision to do her job. She's a defense lawyer. She defends criminals who commit horrible crimes, just like male defense lawyers do.





InTheThirdPerson said:


> Ok, so earlier you said you wanted to change the character to a woman because you wanted more diversity / representation. Now you are saying you want to change it because the people charged with the crime feel a female lawyer will make them look better.



I'm not sure if it's wise to open this can of worms here, and I'm not really disagreeing or anything, but one mildly interesting debate over the last few years is the impact of gender in legal outcome.

There are studies showing female attorneys have a much better success rate in certain types of cases than their male counterparts, all else (i.e competency) being equal. This has historically always been perceived as the case with divorce & family law, but even in certain criminal cases (especially sexual assault) it has become increasingly popular for accused men to hire a female defense lawyer under the simple belief it will play better with a jury. Studies show that people tend to respond more negatively to observing male attorneys arguing for male defendants innocence against female accusers, especially in cases where part that argument involves attacking credibility -- women tend to be perceived as more trustworthy, empathetic, blah blah. Of course, this has nothing to do with the professionalism of the attorneys and everything to do with culture.

Harvey Weinstein is a high-profile example of this in action, however, H.W is a billionaire who can buy whatever configuration of attorney he wants. In the OP's piece, it is not clear the alleged rapist(s) would have the financial ability to even hire their own private attorney. If you're getting a public defender, you get what you're given. 

If the OP had shown he was interested in writing a story that was more invested in the real world issues surrounding rape cases, I would probably suggest he absolutely makes this lawyer character female and then include the issues surrounding women defending men in sexual assault cases as an interesting part of the story. Otherwise, I agree that it is not relevant whether the counselor has a penis or not.



ironpony said:


> Well I was the second reason came to me in the writing. But I think I see the point made earlier. Is that a female lawyer would probably really be doing it for the money where as a male one is much more likely to go the extra mile in a defense?



Who the hell said that? 

If you want to 'go there', be advised the data shows female lawyers statistically bill for a _lot _less of their time than male lawyers and broadly have equal or better outcomes. The hardest working and most competent lawyer I ever knew was a woman, who would routinely rack up 70+ hour weeks when preparing for court.


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## InTheThirdPerson (Feb 3, 2020)

I'm going to try to reiterate what I was saying earlier, because I feel like that point was missed entirely:

If this character is so generic that you can get away with ONLY changing the pronouns from "he" to "she," then there is absolutely zero point in making that change. It's arbitrary because the character is arbitrary.

If you feel you really need a female character in this story, then make it a REAL character, not just a pronoun. Give her motivations for what she's doing, give her thoughts and opinions -- even if many of them are unspoken in the story, YOU should know them so you can write her like a real person. She doesn't have to be a main character to deserve this kind of thought and consideration. There are many, many, many minor characters in literature that still come across as believable.

You don't have to be smarter than your readers. You just have to not treat them like idiots. If you write hollow characters, or cliche characters, or arbitrary characters, your readers will pick up on that.


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## KenTR (Feb 3, 2020)

Films are much more a product of their time than most books. Unless your rapey script is set in outer space or the 50's, you're going to have to address the current sociological climate. For better or worse, audiences expect that.


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## ironpony (Feb 6, 2020)

InTheThirdPerson said:


> I'm going to try to reiterate what I was saying earlier, because I feel like that point was missed entirely:
> 
> If this character is so generic that you can get away with ONLY changing the pronouns from "he" to "she," then there is absolutely zero point in making that change. It's arbitrary because the character is arbitrary.
> 
> ...



Oh okay, but what if I want her to have the exact same personality as the character was before, but with the gender changed?  What else would I have to change around?  Cause if I change the character around too much than that character will do different things in the plot, and I don't want that of course.  So if I want the character to make all same decisions, then what about them would I have to change, if I change him to female?


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## JohnCalliganWrites (Feb 6, 2020)

ironpony said:


> So if I want the character to make all same decisions, then what about them would I have to change, if I change him to female?



Someone that can get through law school is already a particular type of person. Male and female lawyers have more in common than servers do with cooks.

Here is some results from a survey of men and women's personalities. The takeaway is that there is so much overlap between average men and women, that it would be normal for any give male and female pair to have the same scores:


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## Chris Stevenson (Feb 6, 2020)

Xander416 said:


> Depends on whether the feedback is constructive or destructive. If the feedback is only meant to belittle me as an author rather than help improve my work, you can bet I'm going to disregard it at best and tell the critic to F off at the worst.



This.


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## Cephus (Feb 6, 2020)

Xander416 said:


> Depends on whether the feedback is constructive or destructive. If the feedback is only meant to belittle me as an author rather than help improve my work, you can bet I'm going to disregard it at best and tell the critic to F off at the worst.



Very few people are going to waste their time doing that. Doing a critique takes a lot of effort and consumes a lot of time. What you really want isn't something that blows smoke up your skirt, and I see a lot of people who seemingly want that, but you want an honest take. This is what the person really thinks about your story. No sugar coating. No abject hatred. Just honesty. The act of writing requires a thick skin. If you can't take criticism in any form, then you're just not going to do well.


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## InTheThirdPerson (Feb 6, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, but what if I want her to have the exact same personality as the character was before, but with the gender changed?  What else would I have to change around?  Cause if I change the character around too much than that character will do different things in the plot, and I don't want that of course.  So if I want the character to make all same decisions, then what about them would I have to change, if I change him to female?



Once again, just changing pronouns from "he" to "she" isn't representation. If there is nothing that matters or distinguishes this character as being either male or female, then it really doesn't matter and changing the pronouns is just wasted effort that could be spent on other areas of finishing / improving the story.

But that is clearly not the answer you want, since this is the third or fourth time I've repeated myself. So here you go:

YES! By all means!!! Change the character from male to female and it will be GREAT!


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## ironpony (Feb 6, 2020)

JohnCalliganWrites said:


> Someone that can get through law school is already a particular type of person. Male and female lawyers have more in common than servers do with cooks.
> 
> Here is some results from a survey of men and women's personalities. The takeaway is that there is so much overlap between average men and women, that it would be normal for any give male and female pair to have the same scores:
> 
> View attachment 25385



Oh okay thanks.  Well in my story, all the lawyer does is come in, get her client set free and then leave, and she's out of the plot then.  So I am wondering what is it about her that I have to change though, if I change the gender?


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## Cephus (Feb 6, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thanks.  Well in my story, all the lawyer does is come in, get her client set free and then leave, and she's out of the plot then.  So I am wondering what is it about her that I have to change though, if I change the gender?



Enough already. Do what you want to do. Stop trying to get people to validate your opinions.


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## ironpony (Feb 7, 2020)

Oh sorry if that sounded stubborn, I really am asking what I would change when making a gender swap, for this type of character.


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## luckyscars (Feb 7, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh sorry if that sounded stubborn, I really am asking what I would change when making a gender swap, for this type of character.



The fact you can even discuss arbitrarily changing, adding, discarding fundamental aspects of your characters for no other reason than 'what people think'...demonstrates just how little effort has gone into these characters to begin with.


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## Bayview (Feb 7, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh sorry if that sounded stubborn, I really am asking what I would change when making a gender swap, for this type of character.



Stop writing TYPES of characters. Write this character as an individual.

That means you'll be the only one who can decide what needs to be changed in a gender swap, because you're the only one who knows what the character was like to begin with. YOU'RE writing this story. Think about it, get to know your characters, and make your own decisions about them.


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## Cephus (Feb 7, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh sorry if that sounded stubborn, I really am asking what I would change when making a gender swap, for this type of character.



Characters aren't stereotypes. Characters are individuals. Write what you want to write, not what other people want you to write. People keep telling you that and you keep arguing!


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## ironpony (Feb 7, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> The fact you can even discuss arbitrarily changing, adding, discarding fundamental aspects of your characters for no other reason than 'what people think'...demonstrates just how little effort has gone into these characters to begin with.



Oh okay I thought I put effort into the characters but at the same time, want to address any problems and make changes if people feel I should, but still need to know what changes to make and why then.


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## InTheThirdPerson (Feb 7, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thanks.  Well in my story, all the lawyer does is come in, get her client set free and then leave, and she's out of the plot then.  So I am wondering what is it about her that I have to change though, if I change the gender?



Why are you obsessed with changing the gender of THIS particular character if, by your own admission, this character's only purpose is as a tool to advance the plot? What is the point?

Not every character has to matter. Not every character has to have a back story. The clerk who swipes the MC's credit card at the gas station, for example, doesn't matter. Gender, race... completely irrelevant. It's a background character.

There's a difference between characters who contribute to the story, versus characters who only just advance the plot or are background to scenes. It sounds like this lawyer's only purpose is to get the gang set free, thus advancing the plot. That's perfectly fine. There are plenty of stories out there involving legal proceedings in which who the lawyers are matters less than the outcome of the proceeding.

What I am trying to tell you is that if you are trying to get more representation in your story, just changing THIS character from "he" to "she" is NOT the way to do it. It's a hollow gesture that will not satisfy your readers because this character isn't contributing anything where gender matters. You are just wasting time making the change (and wasting all of ours arguing about it in this thread that is growing ridiculously long over a very simple concept).

If you want representation from a female point of view, then who this character is and their perspective as a person has to matter to the STORY, not just the plot. They don't have to be a main character, but their point of view has to contribute in some way. You can't just pick a character at random, wave a magic wand, and *poof* -- representation. Which is what you are currently doing. And doing so suggests that you really haven't put much thought into any of your secondary characters.

You need to create a female CHARACTER, not just use the appropriate pronouns. Whether you want to put in the work to expand the role of this lawyer, or create a different character is up to you. But if you're not going to care about the character beyond whether you type "he" or "she," then don't bother.

We can't tell you what to change about this lawyer character (or any other character in your story), because we can't write your characters for you. That's YOUR job.


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## ironpony (Feb 7, 2020)

Oh it's just that even if the character is a tool to advance the plot and doesn't matter, the character still needs a gender nonetheless.  So how do you decide the gender of a character, if the character is a minor character who is there to advance the plot?  If gender does not matter for a character, than how do you decide which gender to pick then, since you still need one?

When it comes to minor character, picking the gender is even more difficult, cause for the main ones, you know which gender they should be and why, for that character, and their decisions.  But for minor ones, where it doesn't matter, than how do you decide then, cause it not mattering, makes it more difficult therefore.


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## InTheThirdPerson (Feb 7, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh it's just that even if the character is a tool to advance the plot and doesn't matter, the character still needs a gender nonetheless.



Correct. No one said they don't. What I'm saying is that if you are not giving the character any distinguishing identity, then merely changing the gender is a pointless gesture.




> So how do you decide the gender of a character, if the character is a minor character who is there to advance the plot?



It's YOUR story! YOU have to decide what the role of each character is. We can't write this thing for you, which is literally what you have been asking. Think about more than the plot of your story. Think about the characters. Who do you want them to be? What purpose are they serving? If they are influencing the story, then what are their motivations? 

These are questions we cannot answer for you. YOU have to answer them.




> If gender does not matter for a character, than how do you decide which gender to pick then, since you still need one?



No one said gender doesn't matter. What I have been saying is that if the character doesn't matter, then their gender doesn't matter. That's an entirely different concept. 

Maybe this lawyer character is serving no purpose other than to get the gang exonerated and set free. If that's the case, then who cares what gender the lawyer is? There's no weight brought to the story other than plot advancement -- so why would you bother doing "busy work" changing the gender?

You are making this way more difficult than it needs to be by constantly deflecting the advice everyone in this thread has been giving you.

If you want a female character in your story, THEN WRITE ONE. It's as simple as that. But make it a character, not a pronoun.


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## KenTR (Feb 7, 2020)

Why not make your lawyer a gernderqueer heteromantic transexual? Albeit a butch one. They're all the rage these days.


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## ironpony (Feb 7, 2020)

InTheThirdPerson said:


> Correct. No one said they don't. What I'm saying is that if you are not giving the character any distinguishing identity, then merely changing the gender is a pointless gesture.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh well it's just it said before that I should make the most minor character into a real character and give them personal stakes in their motivations, so I am not sure if I should do that, or just leave the character be minor and completely plot driven.


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## InTheThirdPerson (Feb 7, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh well it's just it said before that I should make the most minor character into a real character and give them personal stakes in their motivations, so I am not sure if I should do that, or just leave the character be minor and completely plot driven.



That decision is yours. Not every single character in your story needs to be fully fleshed out with motivations and a back story. The example I gave previously, for example, of a gas station clerk taking payment doesn't really need any deep thought about motivation (it's implied anyway -- the person is doing their job).

And regarding the lawyer character, ultimately, if you want to switch the pronouns, that's also completely up to you. It's just that it's a pointless gesture when it comes to representation if literally the only thing you're doing is changing "he" to "she" -- because if that's all it takes, then it's not a fully realized character to begin with.

The decision you need to make is whether or not the lawyer's role should be bigger in the story. If a bigger role is not necessary, or maybe even not appropriate, to tell the story you want to tell, then why tinker with it at all? 

If adding more female representation to the story is important to you, then you need to figure out how to write a character that is more than just a token gesture. Maybe it's the lawyer. Maybe it's a different character. Maybe it's a completely new character. You have endless possibilities for how to go about it.


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## Xander416 (Feb 8, 2020)

Cephus said:


> Very few people are going to waste their time doing that. Doing a critique takes a lot of effort and consumes a lot of time. What you really want isn't something that blows smoke up your skirt, and I see a lot of people who seemingly want that, but you want an honest take. This is what the person really thinks about your story. No sugar coating. No abject hatred. Just honesty. The act of writing requires a thick skin. If you can't take criticism in any form, then you're just not going to do well.


I'm still not quite sure why I should be paying attention to anyone that tells me I should quit doing something I enjoy because they personally don't like the way I do it.


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## luckyscars (Feb 9, 2020)

Xander416 said:


> I'm still not quite sure why I should be paying attention to anyone that tells me I should quit doing something I enjoy because they personally don't like the way I do it.



Because your career as a writer lives and dies on whether people personally like the way you write.


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## Cephus (Feb 9, 2020)

Xander416 said:


> I'm still not quite sure why I should be paying attention to anyone that tells me I should quit doing something I enjoy because they personally don't like the way I do it.



There's a big difference between doing something for personal enjoyment and doing it to make a living at, or at the very least, to make money on. In the latter case, you live or die based on what people think of your work. If people don't like what you are doing, you are  going to fail. In the former, it doesn't matter. I think a lot of people are very confused by this distinction. You get people who are desperately looking for validation, but not for truth. They only want to be praised for what they're doing, whether what they're doing is any good or not. If you don't want to know the truth, don't ask. The whole "be kind" nonsense doesn't get you anywhere. It doesn't improve your skills. It doesn't teach you anything. It's why you need to have a thick skin and be willing to hear the truth, no matter what that truth is. Critiques are not about making you feel good. They are about fixing your problems. If you just want to do it the way you want to do it, why are you asking what others think of it anyhow?


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## MichelD (Feb 11, 2020)

I gave a portion of my manuscript to a friend who was a high school English teacher for years She said she was going to look at it and pass it on to another person who was also a writer.

You know what? They never got back to me.


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## ironpony (Feb 12, 2020)

Cephus said:


> There's a big difference between doing something for personal enjoyment and doing it to make a living at, or at the very least, to make money on. In the latter case, you live or die based on what people think of your work. If people don't like what you are doing, you are  going to fail. In the former, it doesn't matter. I think a lot of people are very confused by this distinction. You get people who are desperately looking for validation, but not for truth. They only want to be praised for what they're doing, whether what they're doing is any good or not. If you don't want to know the truth, don't ask. The whole "be kind" nonsense doesn't get you anywhere. It doesn't improve your skills. It doesn't teach you anything. It's why you need to have a thick skin and be willing to hear the truth, no matter what that truth is. Critiques are not about making you feel good. They are about fixing your problems. If you just want to do it the way you want to do it, why are you asking what others think of it anyhow?



Oh well, when it comes to me, I have no problem fixing problems but if the reader points out a problem that is un-fixable without destroying the whole story, well than I can't fix that.  But then I feel they may think I have a bad attitude for not being able to fix it...  As for having a thickskin, is possible that I might have too thick of skin to the point where I will put my foot down and not fix certain things the way the readers cause I feel I cannot have it both ways, or is that too thick of skin?


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## Kyle R (Feb 12, 2020)

ironpony said:


> As for having a thickskin, is possible that I might have too thick of skin to the point where I will put my foot down and not fix certain things the way the readers cause I feel I cannot have it both ways, or is that too thick of skin?



That's not thick skin. That's normal. Just because a reader suggests something, that doesn't mean you have to consider it. You're perfectly entitled to reject any and all feedback, if you like. _You_ are the writer, not them. It's _your_ story, not theirs.

You should have a creative vision and believe in it, otherwise you'll doubt yourself every time a reader says otherwise. :grief:


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## Amnesiac (Feb 12, 2020)

I had a reader suggest some corny part to the ending of one of my stories, and I thought, "That's corny and stupid, but if you're so interesting in creating, go write your own stories!"


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## luckyscars (Feb 12, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh well, when it comes to me, I have no problem fixing problems but if the reader points out a problem that is un-fixable without destroying the whole story, well than I can't fix that.  But then I feel they may think I have a bad attitude for not being able to fix it...  As for having a thickskin, is possible that I might have too thick of skin to the point where I will put my foot down and not fix certain things the way the readers cause I feel I cannot have it both ways, or is that too thick of skin?



There's a big difference between having a thick skin and a strong vision...and being too stubborn, ignorant or lazy to want to listen..

If somebody makes a suggestion, consider it carefully. If the suggestion doesn't work for you/your vision or you just plain don't like it -- that's a thick skin. If it's a good suggestion and you don't change it -- you're a stubborn fool.

Of course, if you are not open to changing anything you probably shouldn't be wasting people's time asking for feedback.


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## Rojack79 (Feb 12, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh well, when it comes to me, I have no problem fixing problems but if the reader points out a problem that is un-fixable without destroying the whole story, well than I can't fix that.  But then I feel they may think I have a bad attitude for not being able to fix it...  As for having a thickskin, is possible that I might have too thick of skin to the point where I will put my foot down and not fix certain things the way the readers cause I feel I cannot have it both ways, or is that too thick of skin?



Ok I'm going to try and help out some. For me critique is someone giving you there opinions of your work. Now how you take that opinion is going to either help or hinder you but you also have to take into account who is giving you their advice. Don't let them tell you how they would write your story, let your own voice shine through.

 At the same time don't just discount every single piece of advice they give you. If someone points out a genuine issue then look into it but don't change it just because someone says to. Think about what they've said,  ponder it and see if what they suggest will work for you. If it doesn't then thank them for the feedback and move on. If they're good at critiquing them they'll see that there advice just won't work for you and wish you the best.


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## Cephus (Feb 13, 2020)

ironpony said:


> As for having a thickskin, is possible that I might have too thick of skin to the point where I will put my foot down and not fix certain things the way the readers cause I feel I cannot have it both ways, or is that too thick of skin?



That's not having a thick skin, that's being stubborn. I mean being able to accept criticism without being emotional about it, without looking at any kind of criticism as a personal attack, etc. There are a lot of writers who see themselves in their writing. If anyone finds anything wrong with their writing, it's not a problem to be fixed, it's a personal failing that sends them into a tailspin of self-doubt. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how you feel about your writing, it matters if you can produce a good story that other people want to read.


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## ironpony (Feb 21, 2020)

Cephus said:


> That's not having a thick skin, that's being stubborn. I mean being able to accept criticism without being emotional about it, without looking at any kind of criticism as a personal attack, etc. There are a lot of writers who see themselves in their writing. If anyone finds anything wrong with their writing, it's not a problem to be fixed, it's a personal failing that sends them into a tailspin of self-doubt. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how you feel about your writing, it matters if you can produce a good story that other people want to read.



Oh okay thanks, but if reader suggests suggestions, that will create other holes in the story, than is it really being stubborn, not to take them if those suggestions will just create other holes?  If they point out a plot hole, and say how to fix it, what good is it, fixing that plot hole, if doing so, will just open up another one, in another section of the plot?  Is that being stubborn, or is that realizing it's a tick tack toe solution, and cannot really be solved?


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## Gamer_2k4 (Feb 21, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh well, when it comes to me, I have no problem fixing problems but if the reader points out a problem that is un-fixable without destroying the whole story, well than I can't fix that.  But then I feel they may think I have a bad attitude for not being able to fix it...  As for having a thickskin, is possible that I might have too thick of skin to the point where I will put my foot down and not fix certain things the way the readers cause I feel I cannot have it both ways, or is that too thick of skin?



That sounds like thin skin to me.  Thick skin means things don't bother you, while this seems like you're bothered that they're suggesting changes you're unwilling to make.  You're worried about what people think and about your attitude.  That's the opposite of thick skin.


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## InTheThirdPerson (Feb 21, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thanks, but if reader suggests suggestions, that will create other holes in the story, than is it really being stubborn, not to take them if those suggestions will just create other holes?  If they point out a plot hole, and say how to fix it, what good is it, fixing that plot hole, if doing so, will just open up another one, in another section of the plot?  Is that being stubborn, or is that realizing it's a tick tack toe solution, and cannot really be solved?



Think about what you just wrote for a second.

Are you really telling us that your story is constructed so flimsy that a plot hole is necessary in order to prevent a different plot hole? Might that not suggest that more work really is necessary in your story?


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## Sir-KP (Feb 21, 2020)

Ironpony, you really do make threads that go up to 9 pages and beyond, circling around one matter.

You should turn this persistence to face against that feedback-problem thingy you are having.


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## InTheThirdPerson (Feb 21, 2020)

Sir-KP said:


> Ironpony, you really do make threads that go up to 9 pages and beyond, circling around one matter.
> 
> You should turn this persistence to face against that feedback-problem thingy you are having.



You're exactly right. All of the effort in this thread could have been made fixing the story in question.

Ironpony, as I've said before, you aren't getting the answer you want, so you just keep reframing the question, hoping someone will tell you what you want to hear.

And through all of this, what it comes down to is that you are resistant into putting any more work into your story. You worry about fixing one thing making it necessary for you to fix something else.

The bottom line is that it's your story. If you're satisfied with it, then why bother keeping this thread going? If you're NOT satisfied with it, then you need to be willing to dive into the guts of the story and do whatever is necessary to fix it and make it better. No one here is going to give you the magical "easy button" answer you're looking for -- because it doesn't exist.


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## ironpony (Feb 22, 2020)

Oh well it's not that I am satisfied with it.  I'm not satisfied. It's just I don't know how to take the suggestions and apply them without opening other plot holes in other sections.  Which is why I didn't take the suggestions, but am I doing something wrong, by worrying about fixing something else, when trying to fix something?


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## Fiender (Feb 22, 2020)

If you don't want to make one change because you're worried about that causing the need for more changes, that is your decision to make. It's possible that, by fixing one problem, you could introduce more. As long as this is a conscious decision you are making based on the merits of your story, and not simple hesitance to have to do more work.

Maybe you should copy your manuscript and, in the new file, make the change and do a run-down to catch if that change causes any of these potential problems you're worried about. If so, try to address them. Perhaps once you've done this, you could get a beta reader's opinion afterward.

Buuuuuuut this all comes down to you making the decision. Your only mistake, I feel, is not making that decision and expecting anyone on a forum with minimal context of your story to be able to tell you concrete answers. That's beta reader feedback territory.


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## ironpony (Feb 22, 2020)

Well it depends because there are certain parts of the story I feel I am satisfied with and have already been changed according to readers, but then when I ask new beta readers about other sections of my story, the go back to the sections that are already worked on, and they feel those need to be changed.  But those sections have been covered already.  Shouldn't I just concentrate on the sections that haven't been covered as oppose to redoing sectins I already changed before?


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## luckyscars (Feb 22, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Shouldn't I just concentrate on the sections that haven't been covered as oppose to redoing sectins I already changed before?



You should concentrate on the answers people have persistently given you: This exact question was asked and answered on Page 2 -- probably since as well. The fact you are now, on Page 10, repeating the same question is evidence of how little consideration you give the answers and how hellbent you are on prolonging a pointless discussion.


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## DennisP (Feb 22, 2020)

When I incorporated other people's critique suggestions into my stories, it became their stories, not mine.

Now I read critiques to see if someone took a different meaning than the one I had intended. That says that I miscommunicated, and it's up to me to make my meaning clearer.

But I always thank the person who took time to read my crap and to comment upon it. I may not thank them in writing, but I do in my attitude towards them.


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## hvysmker (Feb 22, 2020)

Huh? I don't understand that theory.


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## KenTR (Feb 22, 2020)

Ironpony, regarding plot holes: they're yours to fill in. If you find your writing is becoming a game of whack-a-mole, maybe it's time to get yourself a cat. 

Take your story apart, lay out all the pieces, throw out what you don't like or need, and reassemble. Repeat this process until all the pieces fit perfectly. 

You need to have a stronger vision and a bit more confidence.


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## ironpony (Feb 22, 2020)

KenTR said:


> Ironpony, regarding plot holes: they're yours to fill in. If you find your writing is becoming a game of whack-a-mole, maybe it's time to get yourself a cat.
> 
> Take your story apart, lay out all the pieces, throw out what you don't like or need, and reassemble. Repeat this process until all the pieces fit perfectly.
> 
> You need to have a stronger vision and a bit more confidence.



Oh okay, but I've done that a few times, and I realized after a few times, that no story is perfect, is it, and there is always going to be a hole somewhere, if you look hard enough, isn't there?


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## KenTR (Feb 22, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, but I've done that a few times, and I realized after a few times, that no story is perfect, is it, and there is always going to be a hole somewhere, if you look hard enough, isn't there?



"Good enough" is rarely, if ever, good enough. And no, few things are _truly_ perfect, but you should strive for perfection anyway. Not because there's a chance you will succeed, but because if you don't, it will show.


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## luckyscars (Feb 22, 2020)

KenTR said:


> "Good enough" is rarely, if ever, good enough. And no, few things are _truly_ perfect, but you should strive for perfection anyway. Not because there's a chance you will succeed, but because if you don't, it will show.



I actually, weirdly disagree with this. I mean, obviously I don't disagree in half-assing things, but I do think as writers we often place far too much emphasis on polishing work, on making every single sentence, paragraph and page self-evidently genius. We tend to internalize things and assume anything that isn't rock-your-socks-off-blow-off-your-boobies fantastic is bad writing.

Hemingway, supposedly, hated everything he wrote. Edgar Allan Poe despised and was embarrassed by much of his oeuvre. A lot of writers become suicidal or depressed. That's not optimal, obviously, but it does speak to a certain degree of self-doubt, maybe.

I have found that the stories of mine I have published have been, largely, ones I didn't think were that good, at least not at the time. It sounds counter-intuitive, but there's this weird happy-zone for quality IMO that exists somewhere between "this isn't...too terrible' and "this is bloody fantastic. That's the place where successful work seems to come from.

In other words, you want to feel your work is readable, understandable, valuable, but you don't want to necessarily be in love with it or consider it perfect or anything.

The stories that I felt were genius, the ones I felt were generally 'my best' have often tanked. The stories that I half-assed have definitely tanked. The stories that, so far, have done alright, have been ones I thought were good enough but by no means my best ever. 

Having that slight sense of doubt about the viability of my work gave me the ability to be critical, to be emotionally disconnected, to not be so terribly invested in my work that I cared a ton if it got rejected.

I don't think writers are necessarily very well placed to assess how good their work is, really. Not beyond a point, anyway. A story of mine that is being reprinted in May will have made $300 when the reprint happens and I still think it's pretty much just okay. 

On the other hand, another short-story I loved and put my heart and soul into has made zero dollars and been published in zero places despite close to a hundred submissions since last March. 

So, like, what the fuck does the author know about whether what they write is good or not?


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## ironpony (Feb 22, 2020)

Yeah that makes sense, I just feel that some of the suggestions even though will make one story element better, make a lot more others worse, which of course is just making it worse maybe...


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## luckyscars (Feb 22, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Yeah that makes sense, I just feel that some of the suggestions even though will make one story element better, make a lot more others worse, which of course is just making it worse maybe...



Just stop buggering around and put it out there. You'll find out.


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## ironpony (Feb 22, 2020)

Well before I put it out there, there are some parts I feel could use improvement, but the reader wants to improve other parts that were already improved though.  So what can I do to get the readers to not concentrate on those parts, and only the parts that are left, rather than redoing everything and trying to make everything perfect.


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## Cephus (Feb 22, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Well before I put it out there, there are some parts I feel could use improvement, but the reader wants to improve other parts that were already improved though.  So what can I do to get the readers to not concentrate on those parts, and only the parts that are left, rather than redoing everything and trying to make everything perfect.



The reader doesn't care what you think you've improved, they're telling you that it needs work whether you like it or not. Stop trying to defend  your bad ideas. Your beta readers are telling you it isn't good enough. Fix it or don't. Stop trying to argue with them.


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## luckyscars (Feb 22, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Well before I put it out there, there are some parts I feel could use improvement, but the reader wants to improve other parts that were already improved though.  So what can I do to get the readers to not concentrate on those parts, and only the parts that are left, rather than redoing everything and trying to make everything perfect.



Ah, back here again I see...

You can't change what people concentrate on. Don't be weird. Just put it out there and kick back with a newly purchased bong and a Frank Zappa CD, or whatever.


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## ironpony (Feb 23, 2020)

Oh okay, it's just I feel if I keep going back and redoing everything it doesn't end then though, cause no readers want to call any section done.  Should I put some sort of a deadline on it, so it actually gets done?


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## Gamer_2k4 (Feb 23, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> Hemingway, supposedly, hated everything he wrote. Edgar Allan Poe despised and was embarrassed by much of his oeuvre. A lot of writers become suicidal or depressed. That's not optimal, obviously, but it does speak to a certain degree of self-doubt, maybe.
> 
> I have found that the stories of mine I have published have been, largely, ones I didn't think were that good, at least not at the time.



I hear this.  The "Published Writer" badge on my profile comes from an LM submission I made here that I despise so much I can't even bring myself to read it again.  Of course, the other handful of entries I made, the ones that I like and enjoy, got no such recognition.  (Which I don't have a problem with, but it certainly proves the point you're making here.)


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## luckyscars (Feb 23, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, it's just I feel if I keep going back and redoing everything it doesn't end then though, cause no readers want to call any section done.  Should I put some sort of a deadline on it, so it actually gets done?



You already have a deadline. It's called 'the end of your life' and it's out there. Get shit done now or regret it through eternity. 100% of those who don't finish their work don't get anywhere.


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## ironpony (Feb 23, 2020)

Oh okay thanks, but shouldn't I set a more specific deadline, rather than sometime within the rest of my life?  Or are you saying I should set a deadline right away, when you said get shit done now?


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## Phil Istine (Feb 23, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Well before I put it out there, there are some parts I feel could use improvement, but the reader wants to improve other parts that were already improved though.  So what can I do to get the readers to not concentrate on those parts, and only the parts that are left, rather than redoing everything and trying to make everything perfect.



If this were a computer program it would be seen as a bug where the program is running in an endless loop.  For pity's sake, please, just take Lucky's suggestion and get it out there.,



ironpony said:


> Oh okay, it's just I feel if I keep going back and redoing everything it doesn't end then though, cause no readers want to call any section done.  *Should I put some sort of a deadline on it*, so it actually gets done?



Yes. Please.



ironpony said:


> Oh okay thanks, but shouldn't I set a more specific deadline, rather than sometime within the rest of my life?  *Or are you saying I should set a deadline right away*, when you said get shit done now?



Yes.  Please.  Even Hell froze over a few years back.


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## luckyscars (Feb 23, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Or are you saying I should set a deadline right away, when you said get shit done now?



You're right, sorry, I definitely should have gone into the variables involved in 'get shit done now'.

No, you're not allowed to set the deadline: *I'm going to do it*.

Your deadline is Sunday February 23 at 6:13pm eastern standard time. 

Depending on your time zone you have approximately fourteen hours. As of Sunday February 23 at 6:14pm you will be unable to touch this manuscript until further notice. 

By no later than Sunday February 23 at 7:00pm eastern standard time you will PM me letting me know you have finished. 

I will then take twenty-four hours to help with researching appropriate places you can send it to and provide you that information by no later than Monday February 24 at midnight.You will then have two days exactly to draft a cover letter, synopsis, etc and send the manuscript to those places, plus any others you know of. At that point you will have done something wonderful.

However, if you violate the terms of this agreement, I will send a swarm of starved locusts after you.

Tick tock!


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## DennisP (Feb 23, 2020)

Thoroughly enjoying this exchange.

Can't wait for the sequel.


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## Bayview (Feb 23, 2020)

DennisP said:


> Thoroughly enjoying this exchange.
> 
> Can't wait for the sequel.



If you enjoyed this, you're all set - it will be repeated endlessly for years to come, with very little variation.


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## velo (Feb 23, 2020)

*SUPERVISOR NOTE-

A gentle reminder to everyone in the thread to keep their replies about the topic of the thread.  Personal commentary about other members is not part of writing discussion.  *


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## Cephus (Feb 23, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, it's just I feel if I keep going back and redoing everything it doesn't end then though, cause no readers want to call any section done.  Should I put some sort of a deadline on it, so it actually gets done?



Sections aren't done. Books are. Until the entire book hangs together in a coherent fashion, it isn't done.


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## ironpony (Feb 23, 2020)

Oh okay, but if I kept rewriting the entire story for every little problem, then wouldn't it never get finished then?


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## Cephus (Feb 23, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, but if I kept rewriting the entire story for every little problem, then wouldn't it never get finished then?



If you don't get it right, what  difference does it make if you "finish"?


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## InTheThirdPerson (Feb 23, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, but if I kept rewriting the entire story for every little problem, then wouldn't it never get finished then?



So first off, how much time have you put into this thread that could have been put into your story? We are at 12 pages of replies now and how many days in? That's a lot of time not spent on your story...

Second, there's a difference between chasing every little problem in your story versus making excuses for why you can't fix problems. It's reasonable to assume that you recognize that your story has some problems or you wouldn't be in here asking whether or not it's worth it to fix them. Only you can decide if it's worth it to put in that work. And I'm starting to feel like THAT'S what you're conflicted about. It seems like on the one hand you know it should be fixed, but on the other you don't like how much work it'll be so you don't want to do it... so you want permission not to.

We can't give you that permission. We can advise you to fix your story, or we advise you to leave it... but ultimately, the responsibility lands on YOU.

Do you want to put more work into your story or not? If the answer is yes, then do it. If the answer is no, then why has this gone on for 12 pages?


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## ironpony (Feb 23, 2020)

Oh well I feel that if I keep having to rewrite it over and over, that it's more wrong, and it's just becoming more wrong.  There has to be a point where it is as right as it will ever get, and you say enough is enough, before you over do it, and try to make it too perfect, but keep failing, no?  I feel like all these attempts to redo everything are making the story possibly more or more problematic, and I find myself going to a more original draft I had way before, and thinking the first ideas were probably better, before trying to rewrite over and over, trying to make things better, but as a result, they may be getting worse.  Unless I am wrong.

Some of the suggestions I took were really good, and helped improve.  But others I feel I don't know if they can actually make the story better with rewrites, cause those kind of suggestions don't seem to go anywhere, or make the story finished.


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## luckyscars (Feb 23, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh well I feel that if I keep having to rewrite it over and over, that it's more wrong, and it's just becoming more wrong.  There has to be a point where it is as right as it will ever get, and you say enough is enough, before you over do it, and try to make it too perfect, but keep failing, no?  I feel like all these attempts to redo everything are making the story possibly more or more problematic, and I find myself going to a more original draft I had way before, and thinking the first ideas were probably better, before trying to rewrite over and over, trying to make things better, but as a result, they may be getting worse.  Unless I am wrong.
> 
> Some of the suggestions I took were really good, and helped improve.  But others I feel I don't know if they can actually make the story better with rewrites, cause those kind of suggestions don't seem to go anywhere, or make the story finished.



Almost 7pm. Did you finish today?


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## Velouremu (Feb 23, 2020)

If it's too late to be fixed it's too late to be fixed, if nothing else, take the critique forward to what you do next.

Also, there is a chance that the critic is harsh. That's a given in this area. Best thing to do is take it optimistically, and ignore the worst bits. 

Remember, this isn't only a study, this is an art. As with all art, there will be those individuals who only like their flavor. Said individuals, outside of the crowd, who offer no good reason for their critique, can be ignored. Especially so if writing is just a hobby.


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## TL Murphy (Feb 23, 2020)

Ironpony, if you really want to produce something, at some point you have to stop asking for advice and go-it alone.  Everyone here is telling you that.  This is actually starting to feel like a joke.  It's entirely possible that you are leading us all on and having a good laugh about it. On the other hand you could be addicted to the feedback.  I suggest you go into retreat and finish your work and submit it.  You've had enough critique.  Do or die, man.


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## PiP (Feb 24, 2020)

ironpony said:


> I showed my script to some people to see what they think, and they will mention part with the plot they have a problem, but then if I saw that I've shown it around for a long time now and nobody mentioned that before, so it's too late to fix that that late now, then they react like maybe I have a bad attitude about it or being lazy.  Does it sound like it though?



Ironpony, you've now received feedback from over 25 different members. It's time to stop and reflect. Take their advice or not. As TL Murphy said



> if you really want to produce something, at some point you have to stop asking for advice and go-it alone.



Ironpony, go away and work on your script as you are now just tying yourself up in knots. You can do it, ironpony. 

_A heartfelt thank you to all the members who contributed to this thread.

_On this note I am going to close the thread.


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