# don’t shy away



## Mesafalcon (Jun 24, 2015)

poems have me giggling like the schoolgirl I once was
interested in the male experience
never deliberately lewd or intentionally offensive
powerful imagery

a swarmy and sweaty feel
to say the least
the word cuntwedged although effective
changed the dynamic of the apartment block

many women poets write frankly
at home and alone
masturbating every hour on the hour
everyone hears it, just like they hear crying babies

somewhat disgusting and disrespectful
for cathartic and psychological reasons
but I don’t shy away
what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas!


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## -xXx- (Jun 24, 2015)

Mesafalcon said:


> what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas!



this has become my cue to leave interactions in the "real world". 

meanwhile,
what's up with all these big words and
congruent thoughts?
*looks at av again*


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## Mesafalcon (Jun 24, 2015)

this is a mixture of reactions to Fats Velvet's "hotbox" which I thought had some very interesting word usage and stirred up a good conversation

(I asked his permission to post since it was about his work)

again, none of the words are mine, and i basically just find this funny. Nellie's comment makes a super ending!


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## Nellie (Jun 24, 2015)

Mesafalcon said:


> Nellie's comment makes a super ending!



:scratch:
Refresh my memory, what comment are you speaking of?


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## Mesafalcon (Jun 24, 2015)

Nellie said:


> :scratch:
> Refresh my memory, what comment are you speaking of?



pretty sure you said this in response to Fats "hot box" :

_what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas! 

_


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## Nellie (Jun 24, 2015)

Never mind!


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## Kevin (Jun 24, 2015)

Collage


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## Mesafalcon (Jun 24, 2015)

Kevin said:


> Collage



that's what poetry is

not like any of us invented the words

am i wrong?

There is a question that, if a million monkeys for a million years typed random words on a typewritter, would they eventually write the Great Gatsby? The answer is probably no.

But I bet we would get quite a few nice poems!


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## Kevin (Jun 25, 2015)

> if a million monkeys for a million years typed random words on a typewriter... I bet we would get quite a few nice poems!



mmm... accidental assemblages lack theme. 


> Collage
> that's what poetry is
> 
> not like any of us invented the words


 Yes, but even a collage has theme. The pieces are chosen with that in mind.  We choose words for specific meanings. We put them together so as to communicate those specific meanings.

come to think of it:





> if a million monkeys for a million years typed random words on a typewriter


 "Peel", "yellow", "fruit", and "feed me" might come up more random than not.


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## Mesafalcon (Jun 25, 2015)

Kevin said:


> mmm... accidental assemblages lack theme.



There are only X amount of words in exsistance. Given an unfathomable amout of time, eventually, accidental assemblages would become identical from the "real thing" to the reader.

Everything in this life and in human knowledge can have a number attached, and in a grand scale of mathematical equations, the finite number of letters and words in the English language - or any language, would ultimately be assembled by chance.

People like tho think of their writing as unique, special and only something "they" can do. For a short sample size of say 2000 years which is about the start of printed writing or books (i think less, not sure off hand), I suppose things feel unique.

When thinking of a grander scale, say a civilaztion lasted 50,ooo years and wrote poems and printed books, I bet you would see a lot more repeat and less uniqueness (assuming you could compare any of it, which technically you could)

*granted* no two people are alike and the sources of the emotions would be different, to a reader who never meets the author - and it is impossible to meet every author or even most of the authors of what we read, the uniqueness of the source would not matter because the source is only a name at that point.


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## Mesafalcon (Jun 25, 2015)

Kevin said:


> come to think of it: "Peel", "yellow", "fruit", and "feed me" might come up more random than not.



then replace monkey with "robot," its just a way to express "random" words being typed. And there is no doubt we can build AI that can write, and if not, soon will be able too.


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## Kevin (Jun 25, 2015)

> There are only X amount of words in exsistance. Given an unfathomable amout of time, eventually, accidental assemblages would become identical from the "real thing" to the reader.


 In all those jumbled words you could never find them.... a relatively few blue grains of sand in a beach full of tan. 



> When thinking of a grander scale, say a civilaztion lasted 50,ooo years, I bet you would see a lot more repeat and less uniqueness (assuming you could compare any of it, which technically you could)


 Yeah, so... it's pointless?  No, I don't think so, or I don't care. We create things and we share things; people share things. You can break everything down into its constituent parts, or you can pattern it into something others can appreciate. And what about yourself, do you prefer vitamin pills and mineral tabs, or actual food?


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## Kevin (Jun 25, 2015)

> no doubt we can build AI that can write


 Man-made simulated life is an abomination, this an opinion from someone who is an atheist.


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## Mesafalcon (Jun 25, 2015)

Kevin said:


> Man-made simulated life is an abomination, this an opinion from someone who is an atheist.



Whats reality is all that matters. 

Whats true is all that matters. 

The fact that AI can write poetry is fact, not opinion. Sorry, my friend. Thats life.

By the way, I'm Jon. Not an atheist or anything else you need to label me to feel comfortable.


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## Mesafalcon (Jun 25, 2015)

Kevin said:


> In all those jumbled words you could never find them.... a relatively few blue grains of sand in a beach full of tan.
> 
> Yeah, so... it's pointless?  No, I don't think so, or I don't care. We create things and we share things; people share things. You can break everything down into its constituent parts, or you can pattern it into something others can appreciate. And what about yourself, do you prefer vitamin pills and mineral tabs, or actual food?



Others would appreciate it, because it would be undistinguishable from human writting. The source is irrelevant.

If you found out a computer wrote 1984, would it change the message?

Not for me. Words and ideas speak for themshelves.


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## Harper J. Cole (Jun 25, 2015)

The conversation on randomly created books reminds me of Jorge Luis Borges' "The Library of Babel", which is worth a look if you're not familiar with it ...

http://hyperdiscordia.crywalt.com/library_of_babel.html


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## Kevin (Jun 25, 2015)

Hey Jon, what I'm saying is that in order to generate something 'un-random' you'd have so much random stuff you'd never be able to sort through it. 
And I was labeling myself(though I'm not absolute). Abomination is a religious word yet I used it. Don't know why but things like CGI bug me. At times I'm actually repulsed. And we don't have computer sentience yet. We may never. In fact I will say we will never. that's JMO.


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## Mesafalcon (Jun 25, 2015)

Kevin said:


> Hey Jon, what I'm saying is that in order to generate something 'un-random' you'd have so much random stuff you'd never be able to sort through it.
> And I was labeling myself(though I'm not absolute). Abomination is a religious word yet I used it. Don't know why but things like CGI bug me. At times I'm actually repulsed. And we don't have computer sentience yet. We may never. In fact I will say we will never. that's JMO.



Well... 

I think we can agree my mixture of responses to hotbox did start an interesting debate. Honestly, we are pretty off topic... 

Fats Velvet using the word cuntwedge caused a cosmic reaction that may continue for a while...


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## Kevin (Jun 25, 2015)

Who knew it was an actual word?  I didn't... and I've been cussing fer...  So you're exploring this random stuff, which is not quite as random as a mindless robot since your subconscious always puts in its two cents. You selected certain responses and not others, ordered them into something, a theme, or themes. So it's not random, just your 'vocabulary' was limited to choices from the responses.


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## Sonata (Jun 25, 2015)

I think I recognise the first line in your poem...


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## Nellie (Jun 25, 2015)

Kevin said:


> Who knew it was an actual word?  I didn't... and I've been cussing fer...  So you're exploring this random stuff, which is not quite as random as a mindless robot since your subconscious always puts in its two cents. You selected certain responses and not others, ordered them into something, a theme, or themes. So it's not random, just your 'vocabulary' was limited to choices from the responses.



I agree! Seems like a _very limited vocabulary _if one is SO obsessed with that obnoxious, "so-called" word.


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## Kevin (Jun 25, 2015)

Now, now,  Nellie... just a little exploration. We'll get thru this...


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## Nellie (Jun 25, 2015)

Kevin said:


> Now, now,  Nellie... just a little exploration. We'll get thru this...



:roll: OK..... I'm in :distress::distress:.


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## Mesafalcon (Jun 25, 2015)

So, you are essentially saying, I wrote this in this way because I have limited vocabulary？

Seems like a insult directed at me which I cant connect to critisim of the work, or of my AI statement being that AI knows probably a thousand times more words than any human is capable of. 

And yes. It is very fasinatining, Nellie. Heres why:

When I say something like 'runt' or 'hunt' you have no reaction, change one letter and some women FREAK. That is fasinatining human phycology. And to me, not very logical.


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## Firemajic (Jun 25, 2015)

Mesafalcon said:


> And yes. It is very fasinatining, Nellie. Heres why:
> 
> When I say something like 'runt' or 'hunt' you have no reaction, change one letter and some women FREAK. That is fasinatining human phycology. And to me, not very logical.









:shock: That is not even a logical statement mesafalcon....


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## J Anfinson (Jun 25, 2015)

Let's get this back on track. Comments should be about the work, not the person, and if you want to go off topic do so by pm. This is a thread for critique, not a debate.


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## Thaumiel (Jun 25, 2015)

Mesafalcon said:


> So, you are essentially saying, I wrote this in this way because I have limited vocabulary？
> 
> Seems like a insult directed at me which I cant connect to critisim of the work, or of my AI statement being that AI knows probably a thousand times more words than any human is capable of.
> 
> ...



I like that you've struck at something that so clearly moved people. I even feel you've done it in the best way, using people's own comments instead of writing about the way they responded directly. 

poems have me giggling like the schoolgirl I once was
interested in the male experience
never deliberately lewd or intentionally offensive
powerful imagery    

The last line of this stanza ruins it for me, it makes sense as a story up until it. I know you can only work with what you're given, maybe with more comments a better line would've emerged.

It could also benefit from additional punctuation, but that's down to how strict you want to be with the style of the piece.

The limited vocabulary could be changed by using more comments, but not a great criticism given the nature of the piece. It is a found poem after all.


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## -xXx- (Jun 25, 2015)

Here's your Online Hieroglyphic Translation of... interesting: 

*looks at papyri*
_
Reed Leaf	Water	Bread Loaf	Vulture Mouth Vulture Folded Cloth Bread Loaf	Reed Leaf	Water	Jar Stand_
*looks at papyri*
ܗܢܝܢܐ
-interprets-
*interesting*


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## sirmirror (Jun 27, 2015)

I was pretty confused, but when I found out you built this through comments- wow! Something I never would've thought of,. It's amazing how there's some sort of hidden interpretable story behind those picked out phrases.
Coming to the AI concept that it could manage to write poetry, I'd disagree. What it can come up with is only a copy of different pieces and weave it in different ways. can it come up with its own opinions and thoughts? It can only write on themes based on the data fed to it. 
Well, that's what I think at least, but if I were to be proved wrong in the future- well, that though makes me sad that our craft's very essential specialty- creative expression- is just lost.


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## escorial (Jun 27, 2015)

the poem is made up of other people comments/responses...then i think i can only comment on well done for putting them in order to convey a multi- point view of somebody else's work...struggling to get a grasp of it to be honest other than well written...


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## Mesafalcon (Jun 27, 2015)

escorial said:


> the poem is made up of other people comments/responses...then i think i can only comment on well done for putting them in order to convey a multi- point view of somebody else's work...struggling to get a grasp of it to be honest other than well written...



Dont forget, only people on this forum know that! 

When I show these clipped together pieces to friends in real life, they have no idea and judge it on its own merit. 

I have seen people here judge the 'process' more than the actual result. It should be judged moreso on the actual piece that has been produced, no?


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## Nellie (Jun 28, 2015)

escorial said:


> the poem is made up of other people comments/responses.....struggling to get a grasp of it to be honest other than well written...



That is what I am trying to do........ struggling to grasp what was said in the "whole" poem and be honest about it. My "response" was used and when I commented, I get blasted, suggesting I am implying at something that was not intended.


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## escorial (Jun 28, 2015)

Nellie said:


> That is what I am trying to do........ struggling to grasp what was said in the "whole" poem and be honest about it. My "response" was used and when I commented, I get blasted, suggesting I am implying at something that was not intended.



i think a piece of poetry that uses other peoples words is open to many questions..are the words out of context...ect..a poem made from these words is an attempt by the poet to construct not write a piece and to initiate a response of other people not privy to the poets reasons...the process used to write it..i would say in this thread is the best way for me to comment as there not the poets words...but like you say Nellie if someone wants to use your words than they should expect  a reply on how they feel your words are used.


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## Mesafalcon (Jun 28, 2015)

escorial said:


> i think a piece of poetry that uses other peoples words is open to many questions..are the words out of context...



But... 

A) they are not exactly other people's words because they are not full sentences. I mean, none of these words are really "ours." It's not like we have licences to use certain words. (a_nd please keep in mind, I am using words from people's responses - not their creative work)_

B) Only people on _this_ forum know that. If I went to say a forum about kittens, clipped out words from responses on a trip to the vet one poster had, posted here and made a cute, fun piece - you would have no idea they were'nt my words so... why would it matter?

So, if you don't know this, you don't need it to be open to any more questions than any other poem you read.

Which is what I mean by, the piece must be judged on its own merit, _not _on the process. 

Ever listen to techno music? Which takes clips of other music? Rap does this as well these days, like Eminem.


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## escorial (Jun 28, 2015)

so you use any word you choose and add your own and say it's other peoples words....


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## Kevin (Jun 28, 2015)

Judging on its own merit...


I would have to say it was a poem I didn't get. I can't seem to find any clear linkage. In S1,  line one doesn't make sense. All poems? Linking it with line two I ask: are all poems about the male experience? The answer is obvious. The last line is totally  vague and unconnected.

The second stanza, if you read English properly, is all about the word. What word? I don't know, it's never mentioned.

The third stanza... well pretty much it's the same thing. No connection or a vague something. Even with all definite statements made with each line there's still no 'storyline', no overall meaning. 

So... if this is an example of random selections, or... purposefully selected lines it didn't turn out very well. It does look like a poem. I think the problem is two-fold: 1) you had no message to convey. 2) you didn't have enough lines to pick through to at least simulate a coherent message.

My conclusion is also that random selected poetry or music sucks.  Judging by the product. Purposefully selected words put in the proper order with thought are more likely to create something  that I would enjoy. If someone were to pass off some random stuff as artistic creation I would feel duped trying to figure out the message. Why? Cause there isn't one. I appreciate the use of big words, little words, proper punctuation, creative punctuation, no punctuation, as long as it goes together, and there is a message. I like something thought provoking. I like poetry you have to think about, not  something thought confusing because there is no clear thought behind it. 

Words are like colors. Colors are not a collage. A collage is a collection of already formed complete images, then chopped and borrowed and put together with more of the same. If I see a collage it better be pretty damn creative and thought provoking, the message behind it or I'm going to take it as junk and dismiss it.

Finally...  there was an attempt made here; an experiment perhaps. It sort of succeeded, sort of didn't. It proved that you can simulate a poem, but it was not successful at actually being a poem. MO


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## Mesafalcon (Jun 28, 2015)

You guys aren't responding at all to the point I made that _you have the luxury of knowing how I made this_. If I took words from a source totally unrelatted to this fourm, you would have no choice but to judge it as you see it.

When I show this to people who are not on this forum they have no idea and cannot judge it as you do. Which is why I made the hypothetical example of a different subject matter. 

So, you are judging it based on information that I willingly made avalible to you.

Now, you can tear down this particular piece and  say it "sucks" or "junk," but that still doesn't really undermine the process and possibilites it can provide (by the way, I don't remember ever being so harsh about any of your poems). I think you have some expecations and midsets on what a poem is so you are getting a bit aggitated. 

_Poems have been written for 1000s of years, innovation and trying new things is the key to keeping old arts from being drowned in a sea of fasinating new technologies used as entertainment (iphones, video games, computer arts etc) and ways to pull attetnion away for traditional forms of entertainment. Instead of "fighting" a different way of doing something old, it is best to embrace it.

"i think a piece of poetry that uses other peoples words is open to many questions"_

@ escorial : Please expand on this. It is interesing, but I am not totally sure what you mean by "leaves open too many questions", and I am hard pressed to think of a question. Can you provide examples of questions?


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## Kevin (Jun 29, 2015)

Never said this poem sucks. I tried to critique it as a stand alone piece reading each line as if it were. 
Expectations? Yes.  Agitated? No. 
Random poetry as a creative form... okay. This is limited; not random. You selected lines from a limited source. I assume you read them prior, so therefor they're not random. The idea of random poetry in general? I tried it and it doesn't work for me. 
Certainly not the only way to be innovative. I don't embrace it, sorry. Other forms ... ok. I'd have to judge them on a case by case basis.


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## escorial (Jun 29, 2015)

are you taking other peoples words and taking them out of context and are you just constructing words that you feel says something about what..a poem,a saying,a pov.....the creativity is it in the construction or the thought that went into using other peoples words....but now you say the words are not exactly theirs...you express an opinion and change it to suit your take on things for me it was at the beginning were these words other peoples our yours


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## Mesafalcon (Jun 29, 2015)

I guess this Conservation is going in circles. 

I guess you'll just have to jugde the next someday 

Thanks for all the replies. The only way to improve is to have deeper debates.


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