# Forums for older writers?



## The Tourist (Oct 16, 2013)

Winter time is when I work a little harder and write more.  Due to recent changes in weather locally, I've been rained in for a few days.  In doing my research I've been auditing forums.

I usually keep a few forums on my favorites list, for balance if nothing else.  I keep a hand into the cutlery business, and of course, also motorcycles.  But I haven't been as fortunate in finding a creative writing forum for folks over 50 years of age.

There's good reason, my lead character dies.  The themes and implications of "the end of life" can begin to become important after people retire.  Now, my family ages very gracefully, I don't look like I'm in my sixties, and my grandfather lived to be 93.  However you do find you buy more Icy Hot than cologne! 

For the older folks here, can you recommend a forum where these types of books and storylines are discussed?  If you have found one, did/does it help you?


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## Neagen (Oct 17, 2013)

I wonder if there are enough older folks, let alone creative writer older folks to people a creative writing forum?  I wonder if you could persuade Writing Forums management to try a sub forum out for older writers where life issues for older folks are the focus?


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## Morkonan (Oct 17, 2013)

Writers are writers. It's not something that's separated by an age group. If one's looking for people past Retirement age, the best bets are going to be boards that target the older generation. But, while older people do have certain concerns, writers have proven, time and time again, that they are capable of empathizing with them, regardless of their age. 

This is a writing forum. It shouldn't be difficult to discuss writing themes that focus on aging. Younger people aren't incapable of considering such things, they're just not as personally focused on them as older people.


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## egpenny (Oct 17, 2013)

Why would you want a forum with only older folks in it?  I'm 73, my writers group here where I live is at the Senior Center, and a lot of times those people are not up on what's going on around them, they argue with me when I use modern slang, or get that look on their face when I drop a F-word or two into a story.  I need this forum to let some fresh air in.  Granted, I get a chuckle out of some of the concerns of the "Youngin's around here, but hey, that's entertainment.  I don't think there's any problem finding thoughtful comments about a storyline or plot that involves aging here.  There's a bunch of older people here already... IMHO


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## Arrow (Oct 17, 2013)

I get where you are coming from Tourist.  When I was first married 10 years ago, I hated that all of my husband's coworkers were either in their 40's and had been married for 15+ years with kids closer to my age than they were, or they were single and going out partying every weekend.  Being 19, I didn't fit anywhere in that world.  When we had kids, it seemed like there were no people around us with kids, our friends were single, or recently married, or their children were old enough to babysit ours.  I was still out of place, and it was frustrating as hell.  Now, I am 29, I have four littles that drive me insane, I have friends who have children my age, I have friends who just graduated high school and dating a girl still in high school, I have friends in long term relationships with no intention of marrying, or married with no kids.  I realized I am no longer looking for people like me, I fit with my friends because our differences let me pull from their experiences and knowledge, and they from mine.

In writing, I don't look for a forum of 20-somethings with multiple children married to a service member writers.  Instead I find more value in the diversified members here.  I may not be over 50, but I have worked with, lived with and observed the elderly.  I might not have experienced the aging process (let me tell you here and now, I feel about 50)  but I can offer the outside opinion, what I have viewed, what I have experienced, like watching my grandfather slowly deteriorate into Alzheimer over years, and in six months of not being there coming back to a man that didn't know me, and cried because he knew he should.  

In short, (sorry I ramble a lot, possibly the amount of caffiene today) I can see where you might want to be surrounded by writers of a similar age that have similar experiences, but I personally see more value in having the option of seeing what I ask from every angle possible.


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## PiP (Oct 17, 2013)

Hi Tourist, you could always create a group for "older writers".
http://www.writingforums.com/group.php


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## Bloggsworth (Oct 17, 2013)

Why would one need a forum for writers "over 50"? Do we use different grammar, syntax; do we organise our sentences differently, only feature older characters in our stories? Personally, I would rather mix with the young than old fogeys zimmer-framing their way to a dribbling death. Do I want to associate with another 68 year-old, or with a young and vibrant woman who can remind me of how it was and how it is now...


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## Olly Buckle (Oct 17, 2013)

pigletinportugal said:


> Hi Tourist, you could always create a group for "older writers".
> http://www.writingforums.com/group.php


It already exists PiP, it's called 'The befuddled', things happen at an old people's pace there, I don't think there has been any activity for months. Like people say it really does not seem to be a valid configuration, a bit like having a writing forum for proffesional taxidermists.


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## Jeko (Oct 17, 2013)

This one. Ain't a better one on the net, and I've looked.

Here, age is irrelevant. What matters is writing, work and contribution.


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## The Tourist (Oct 17, 2013)

To our younger guys, imagine if the reverse was true...

Imagine if "creative writing" only attracted retired folks.  You flip on the forum, and the first thread is "Proper use of denture paste in zombie stories."  That's followed up by a rousing and heated debate about what are the best weapons to hide in Pampers--the moderators break that one up and ban two members...

Just like music and support garments, fiction has a demographic.  There are forums for those over 50, and there is usually a section on hobbies and writing.  But tick-tock folks.  This year I had to change out the seat on my bigger bike, one with a tad more padding, it's going to happen to us all.

And let's be honest here, I'm not interested in YA, video games, fairies and you typically mundane undead apocalypse.  The real hero of my book is a mortal yet unborn and never seen.  As you age your focus changes.

So to the younger crowd, do this simple thing, it happened to me once.  I went upstairs to the attic in my parent's home to look for something.  I found my old toys, clothes and all of the tchotchkes of my youth.  I can remember the thrills of that period, but it was like looking at someone else's possessions.  I also find old college term papers, and pictures of the past--like my  avatar.  You're changing and you don't even know it.

I'm no longer drawn to books with flying sidekicks and femme fatales.  Been there, done that, invented half of it.  Yeah, broken bones heal, but a cold damp morning lets me know where each break was!  I want more age appropriate themes and at least one book where there's a discernible plot...


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## escorial (Oct 17, 2013)

The Tourist..man you got some hangups.


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## The Tourist (Oct 17, 2013)

escorial said:


> The Tourist..man you got some hangups.



See?  Older people refer to that penchant as "having opinions."  The best adage I've ever heard was _"I didn't climb all the way to the top of the food chain to eat salad."_

And I didn't spend +50 years learning how to read and write to digest only stories about some pre-teen mercenary named Skylar killing zombies while she snaps a selfie.

In life, you don't want to live my life, and I do not wish yours.  I don't want to read your book list, and I have my own interests when it comes to crafting a story.

Yikes, what a radical concept.

_Edit:  Let me give you a positive example.  A few days ago Pandora wrote a poem on evil.  The words still stick with me.  Without fear of contradiction, it's the best thing I've ever read here, perhaps anywhere.  That's where I want to go, to write and make people feel that way._


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## escorial (Oct 17, 2013)

I hope you get there dude.


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## The Tourist (Oct 17, 2013)

escorial said:


> I hope you get there dude.



I hope we all do.  But I cannot live on Oreos and pizza rolls alone.  The real turning point in my novel is the lead praying on the tarmac of an academy.  Not a car crash within fifty miles.


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## escorial (Oct 17, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> I hope we all do.  But I cannot live on Oreos and pizza rolls alone.  The real turning point in my novel is the lead praying on the tarmac of an academy.  Not a car crash within fifty miles.




Man I have no idea what the end of this meant but it made me smile..


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## shadowwalker (Oct 17, 2013)

I'd use "hangups" instead of "having opinions" as well - and I'm a _lot _closer to sixty than twenty (or fifty for that matter).

Anyway, you really do need to focus more on the writing than on the subject. No, you don't have to crit stories you have absolutely no interest in, but just because you want to write about aging or older folks does not mean that others can't help you out with _the way_ you write it. I've beta'd for M/M romance and for straight romance, neither of which I have a huge interest in (if any), but I was able to help out enough that both authors gave me kudos in their books when they were published. I leave the genre-specific crits to people who know the genre; I concentrate on the writing itself. It might be useful to you to try doing the same.


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## Terry D (Oct 17, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> See?  Older people refer to that penchant as "having opinions."  The best adage I've ever heard was _"I didn't climb all the way to the top of the food chain to eat salad."_
> 
> And I didn't spend +50 years learning how to read and write to digest only stories about some pre-teen mercenary named Skylar killing zombies while she snaps a selfie.
> 
> ...



There are plenty of older writers on theses forums (including myself). If I don't want to read a thread about YA, or Fantasy, or a zombie apocalypse then I don't open those threads (other than in my moderation capacity), and I sure as heck don't start one, or two, or three, or four... in which I repeatedly rant against them. If I have a writing question I ask it. The age of the person who chooses to respond makes no difference, the quality of the response does. Yes, I view life far differently as I enter my seventh decade than I did entering my third, but my viewpoint then wasn't invalid because I was younger, just as it is not invalid now because I am older.

In the last month here I've read more about THG, zombies, and YA writing in your posts than anywhere else on the site. If you want to improve your writing, post something and get some feedback, or ask a question about writing--not veiled diatribe about what you don't like.


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## Kyle R (Oct 17, 2013)

Terry D said:


> Yes, I view life far differently *as I enter my seventieth decade* than I did entering my thirtieth, but my viewpoint then wasn't invalid because I was younger, just as it is not invalid now because I am older.



Terry, I had no idea you're over seven hundred years old. Oh, the wisdom you must possess!


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## The Tourist (Oct 17, 2013)

Terry D said:


> There are plenty of older writers on theses forums (including myself). If I don't want to read a thread about YA, or Fantasy, or a zombie apocalypse then I don't open those threads.



There are lots of older folks living in housing develops where there are lots of children.  I prefer my own home.  I haven't been to Sturgis in years.  I read different books.  

I suppose a guy should keep his hand into current events, but once in awhile the mind chatter and the repetitive themes grow tiring.  I want more good stuff and less confetti.


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## Terry D (Oct 17, 2013)

KyleColorado said:


> Terry, I had no idea you're over seven hundred years old. Oh, the wisdom you must possess!



Oops! :black_eyed:


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## Morkonan (Oct 17, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> To our younger guys, imagine if the reverse was true......



You're not talking about "Writers", you're talking about "Stories." Do you think only younger writers write stories with younger protagonists and themes? Do older writers write stories revolving around Themes to do with elderly concerns, like having their walkers kicked out from under them? Pick up a book, read it, then tell me how old the author is. When you can do that, reliably, within an acceptable margin of error (Exceptions made for the occasional outlier...) then you might, just might, be able to start talking reliably about what sorts of themes are chosen by writers within specific demographics.

If you want to discuss Themes involving the elderly, that's fine. It's a completely valid subject and one that deserves attention. But, if you think a book with such themes can only be written by someone who is currently experiencing them, you're making a serious mistake and need to examine what it is that Writers actually do. 

I love all sorts of themes. I just love good writing and good stories. There are plenty of great stories to be found in books with younger protagonists. Everyone can identify with them and, surprisingly so, many of the themes in such books are relevant to people of all ages. It's sometimes this exact sort of change of perspective can provide someone with new insights. This is, after all, a major reason why Readers read. Writers are in the business of providing people with new experiences. That the writer doesn't actually have to have experienced what they're writing about is understood and being accurate is part of the creation process, where research is critical. That's why research is called Research.

Incidentally, I've got two stories with contrasting themes that I've been working on. One is a definite "YA" sort of theme, a "Coming of Age" sci-fi tale. (Sci Fi, not hard Science Fiction) The other story is about a middle-aged warrior who's basically lost everything, has no particular direction or goal and avoids any possible responsibility for his actions, preferring to, as he sees it, live life "as long as it takes." I'm middle-aged. If I just wrote about my concerns and the things I have done, I'd be out of writing material, eventually.


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## Terry D (Oct 17, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> There are lots of older folks living in housing develops where there are lots of children.  I prefer my own home.  I haven't been to Sturgis in years.  I read different books.
> 
> I suppose a guy should keep his hand into current events, but once in awhile the mind chatter and the repetitive themes grow tiring.  I want more good stuff and less confetti.



Then look for the "good stuff", there's lots of great writing in the Workshop and the Literary Maneuvers competition. There's plenty more available in brick and mortar book stores, or on-line.


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## Gavrushka (Oct 17, 2013)

I feel like I should... Well I suppose I'd better...

Hi, my name is Gavrushka, and I'm 47.

Having said that, I don't see how my age relates to my writing, other than I'm likely to have more 'life experience' than someone significantly younger. Since I write fiction, I doubt my age has a massive impact on my prose. - What does matter is that I have a lot to learn, and perhaps a tiny bit of wisdom to pass on to others.

In a few months, I will start rewriting a novel using the knowledge I have gained here. I will be here, cap in hand, asking if one or two of the community will help me through that process by reading my words as I go. 

Why am I saying this? It's because I feel this is a writing forum, and I am as likely to take advice from someone thirty years my junior, as someone significantly older than me. I judge the advice by the quality alone, and I'll never feel the need to offer age restrictions on that any more than I would try to limit it by race, sex or religious beliefs.


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## PiP (Oct 17, 2013)

Cadence said:


> This one. Ain't a better one on the net, and I've looked.
> 
> Here, age is irrelevant. What matters is writing, work and contribution.



Well said Cadence.


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## The Tourist (Oct 17, 2013)

Gavrushka said:


> Having said that, I don't see how my age relates to my writing, other than I'm likely to have more 'life experience' than someone significantly younger. Since I write fiction, I doubt my age has a massive impact on my prose.



It's a two-way street for me.  Both my written word and my book choices have become a transitioning and refined current of energy and perspective.  If I have time to peruse, I want to read and feel.  If I have time to write I want to polish my craft.  Heck, if I want to ride my Sportster I want to drag a footpeg. 

And I'm finding I cannot be everywhere, nor do I want to be.  I don't stand in line for cell phones or movie tickets, nor do I understand the overriding premise.

I think I would ask you to consider the word "discerning."  I filter more, I study and analyze more than respond in numerous directions.  I put more money into my suspensions than I do in the engines.


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## Arrow (Oct 17, 2013)

Tourist, you are right, as we age our tastes refine, our priorities change.  My 8 yr old going from her obsession with Dora when she was two, to Princesses when she was four, and now Harry Potter at 8 (she's been reading them since she was five, but is now obsessed).  My own tastes have changed over the years, from being very much into reading Star Wars and High Fantasy, to now historical fiction and mysteries.  But changing tastes don't have as much to do with my age as it does with my maturity (not to say Star Wars and High fantasy are immature, I still love them) and my experience in life.

My writing has changed too.  When I first started my WiP I was in High School. Accordingly the MCs were all young, strong, vibrant and brilliant.  Everyone of them a Mary Sue.  As I tackled the project again a few years later, my MCs aged more, becoming older than me and having more flaws but still too perfect.  As I tackle it again, for the third time, life has refined me more and so my writing has matured.  Does it matter that my second attempt was only two years ago and I have only aged physically two years?  Nope, what has changed is me, my life experience giving me a deeper understanding of others.  Some of the greatest insights I have gotten about my MCs have been from people younger than myself.




> "Proper use of denture paste in zombie stories."  That's followed up by  a rousing and heated debate about what are the best weapons to hide in  Pampers--the moderators break that one up and ban two members...



On a side note, I would love to see this thread, if not for actual usable research, then for the pure absurdity that would get the brain thinking.


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## Jeko (Oct 17, 2013)

I don't understand what you're asking anyway. Do you want a forum for more experienced writers - if so, there's a board for advanced writing discussion. If you want to avoid younger members altogether, then I can't understand why. Writing isn't about age, or even maturity or experience in life. It's about the skills a writer possesses and how he can use them and pass those on to others.

I'm 16, but equally, I could be 60. And you could be 14. Do you see what I mean? On a forum on the anonymous internet, age shouldn't factor into any discussion.

I post occasional on another forum, exclusively for younger writers. It sucks, TBH. The reason WF is so good, IMO, is because of its diversity.


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## The Tourist (Oct 17, 2013)

Arrow said:


> Accordingly the *MCs* were all young, strong, vibrant and brilliant.



Confused me there for a moment, my mind had to change gears.  Then I remembered I'm in a creative writing forum, and "MC" to most of you means something different than "MC" does to me.

And I mention that because it proves my point, in a left-handed way.  

To you younger members, what if all of the really good, new cutting edge fiction was in motorcycle forums?  Would you offer the same argument?  Would you bother to wade through 75% of the stuff that has absolutely no interest to you and hope someone posted something you wanted to pursue?


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## Bilston Blue (Oct 17, 2013)

KyleColorado said:


> Terry, I had no idea you're over seven hundred years old. Oh, the wisdom you must possess!



He is, I can vouch for this. I've met Terry in each of my several previous lives, and, indeed, first met him shortly after the battle of Bosworth Field. He's very wise. Helped me fix my longbow and all. 

On topic, or perhaps nearer topic, because I'm not quite sure of the topic (but then I've found that's a common occurrence since my recent return to the forum [and especially when a particular poster is posting seemingly inexplicable stuff which kind of means the subjects meander and the casual reader must join the dots to make the connection]), I've written stories and in particular a novelette which is first person memoir of an eighty-something year old. My new novella/novel, which is in its gestation period currently, is the life story of a hundred year old lady juxtaposed with the story of the terminal decline of her town.

The writer doesn't always need to have lived his subject. Experience is great but where it isn't available, research can provide an equally reliable aid. I'm not forty but can easily write from the perspective of someone well past the autumn of their life. Might take a little while to get the voice and dialect (if necessary) and to remember the inconsistency of such an aged narrator. 

Hell, I don't even know if this is relevant, but seemed like it when I started. I'm not sure at all why somebody would want to restrict themselves to the collective wisdom of a group of people limited in their numbers. Any place like this you've got to sort the good from the bad, appropriate from inappropriate, necessary from unnecessary, helpful from unhelpful, call it what you want. But is it a good thing to cut certain age groups or any group of people or subsection of society from those you're willing to mentor/tutor or learn from? Sounds like snobbery of the highest order (but that's only an opinion, of course, and one expressed in only the gentlest, most softly spoken ways).


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## spartan928 (Oct 17, 2013)

Cadence said:


> I'm 16, but equally, I could be 60. And you could be 14. Do you see what I mean? On a forum on the anonymous internet, age shouldn't factor into any discussion.
> 
> I post occasional on another forum, exclusively for younger writers. It sucks, TBH. The reason WF is so good, IMO, is because of its diversity.



No kidding cadence. Wouldn't have guessed. Your wise beyond your years, an excellent case in point. Experience and talent are assets no matter where you fall age-wise.


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## The Tourist (Oct 17, 2013)

Cadence said:


> because of its diversity.



Diversity is not always a virtue.  Do blind guys play professional football or shoot skeet?  Why not?  They're part of our supposedly rich, crazy-quilt blueprint for the family of man.

But I'm not talking about touchie-feelie social issues, I'm discussing finding a more fruitful venue for some aspects of a unique situation.  Besides, older folks are full members in this diversity issue, so how often do you go to old age homes for writing classes?

When it comes to elective social entanglements, it's like making a choice between vanilla or devils food.  It's solely a personal concern.


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## Nickleby (Oct 17, 2013)

What I think The Tourist wants is a place for purely thoughtful fiction. I'm not saying that young people aren't thoughtful, but those thoughts tend to come between gunfights, explosions, and open warfare. They need those rushes of adrenalin, or think they do, to punctuate their points.

I'm an older person too. My WIP is a fantasy, but the real drama (I hope) comes from its characters and not from their exploits. They're not trying to conquer the world--in fact, they're struggling to survive. I believe that it's more interesting to deal with a slow death from starvation than a quick death from a bullet.

Younger people move quickly and believe they'll live forever. I don't move very quickly at all, and I can feel the cold breath of the Reaper. I'm here to pass along my accumulated wisdom more than I am to learn about writing. I suspect there's not much we older folks could learn about writing, or life, from each other.


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## Fred (Oct 17, 2013)

I think I can see what you mean, T, but maybe a _writing_ forum for the over-50s isn't necessarily the best pattern. Perhaps another forum, elsewhere on the net or (if it's still out there) real life, exploring different and various aspects and flavours of life at a certain age, would be valuable source material, if nothing else. When I want that, I go to the pub. It's the best forum there is for grumpy old men… 

As far as my own output goes, I'm pleased that my 50+ years enable me to draw on an experience and patience (and a bloody-mindedness that I didn't have back in the day to finish the damn thing) that I never had at 25, but I do wish that I could recapture the brash energy I had back then. I value time spent mixing views with people here and in other places, because every now and then I read something with some of the passion and excitement and commitment that energised me decades ago and helps me remember what it felt like to create so enthusiastically once upon a time. I'd fear that entering some kind of gated community for the been-there, done that would shut me out from one more tenuous link to what once inspired me to try this game in the first place, the consequence of which might be that I'd never really be there or do that, I'd just grumble about the travel arrangements.

For me, my principal age-related worry is that I may not have enough time to complete all the ideas I've had and am certain I will have. I also worry that my advancing years will prevent me from fully exploiting the wealth and fame my writing will bring me. Once Hollywood snaps up the rights to my novels, I'll wish I were thirty years younger when I'm sipping margaritas with Amber Heard and Megan Fox in the bar of the Plaza Hotel.


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## The Tourist (Oct 17, 2013)

Nickelby, you're close, perhaps most of the argument.

It's not just a question of thought, but a question of impact through the written word.  I have mentioned the poem on evil.  It's an excellent example.  There's no gaping chest wounds, no blood lust, no misogynist’s rants.  Yet, you feel the wages of sin with a construct of perfect phrases.

Compare that to a simplistic slasher tale.  Twice the violence, but usually half the message.

I first saw this play out in the movie "First Blood."  At the end, Stallone chews the scenery in a PTSD breakdown--yelling, ranting and finally throwing a belt-fed M-60.  But Richard Crenna, a veteran actor of plays, dramas and comedies, evokes a deeper pathos with only a slight tremor in his lip.

If anything, that's my goal as a writer.  As for that poem, you have no idea on how far that raised the bar for me.  Zombie apocalypse?  From now on that genre is like white sale at Filene's Basement, but with mottled flesh and a thinner plot.


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## tabasco5 (Oct 17, 2013)

www.oldwritinggeezersforum.com


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## Skodt (Oct 17, 2013)

You do come to realize that this discussion is fruitless when you compare authors age to authors work don't you? Hemingway was a ripe age of 30 when he wrote A farewell to arms and only 27 when he wrote The Sun also Rises. Salinger was 32 when he wrote Catcher in the Rye. These two were no slouches younger in life either. Great Gatsby? Fitz was only 27 years old as well. This doesn't happen for everyone. Sometimes younger generations write drivel, but that doesn't mean all young authors write drivel. Like also all older authors don't stray away from the fancy vampires, or the mutants, or the major action scenes. Look at a highly famous author today for that fact; Patterson is a highly accomplished crime novelist, but he has written the maximum ride series( a series of teenage mutants) he has written the Witch and the Wizard, and a few other teen aged books. 

When it comes down to it in the end; this conversation is quite trivial. The real problem is not age, but your taste. You don't have a taste for fantasy then don't read it. We won't make you I promise you are free to read whatever you want. If you want new threads because none interest you; then make them. Those who are interested will find their way there. There is no reason in the world that we should market a splitting of the forums. Old can learn from the young and young can learn from the old; there is always room to learn, and splitting the forum will just alienate one group from another, and in the end cause potentially important information to be missed somewhere.


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## The Tourist (Oct 17, 2013)

Well, it's not trivial to me.  Why should I waste my time with thin plots, substandard rehashes and butchered language just to assuage the thin egos of kids?  I want to learn to write better, but what I put into my head is my business.


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## The Tourist (Oct 18, 2013)

We are about to find out if my theory holds water.  I researched the sites, found one forum with lots of departments and a hobby page for writers, and I registered.  I even entered my first post.


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## Pluralized (Oct 18, 2013)

I hope you find it to be inviting and welcoming.


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## The Tourist (Oct 18, 2013)

Pluralized said:


> I hope you find it to be inviting and welcoming.



That's only part of it.  I hope to find things there that re-energize me.  Let me explain.

If all you had to gauge things was the front page headlines, then you'd think that "the government," debt, and modern issues (like college costs, social media, and celebrity scandals) were the only things happening.  However, those are always superficial topics, as you know, "if it bleeds, it leads."

I got to thinking about this ancillary view one afternoon after The Packer Game.  The government was technically shut down and Entertainment Tonight was still on a Miley Cyrus kick, but here in Packerland the only topic that mattered was that the green and gold now had a running game.

So, draw a parallel.  I was never big on being told what to think, and watching my team go "3 and 2" was crucial to me.  So ergo, why should TV's talking heads, guys who never leave their mom's basements and the failures of a former Illinois senator be of utmost importance to me?  In a very real sense, these things had no impact, at all.

What else was I missing?

Hey, modern music is dreadful, I listen to the oldies.  You should see the numbers of modern books that bore me to tears.  New cars and motorcycles are built out of plastic.  Sophia Loren still looks better just standing still than anyone else twerking their careers into oblivion.  Heck, I just bought a new knife for myself, it has a blade blank over 1/4 inch thick and it's made of steel--more steel, in fact, than the entire lap-top I'm typing on right now!

No, guys, my future is in the past.  I'm looking forward to this forum and sweatin' with the oldies.


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## Jeko (Oct 18, 2013)

> Do blind guys play professional football or shoot skeet? Why not? They're part of our supposedly rich, crazy-quilt blueprint for the family of man.



Yay, casual ageism. Keep it up. You'll make a lot of friends this way.

I should update my ignore list soon.


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## bookmasta (Oct 18, 2013)

Cadence said:


> Yay, casual ageism. Keep it up. You'll make a lot of friends this way.
> 
> I should update my ignore list soon.



That is what I did. Anyway, back to the point. Finding a creative writing forum for "older people" is like trying to find a needle in a hay stack. Just because someone is older, doesn't mean they're wise.  Also checking you're ego at the is always a good idea, no matter how wise you think you are. I've also grown sick of the countless ranting around the younger generation of writers and book series like Twilight and the Hunger Games. So what if the Hunger Games was like Battle Royale. Does it matter? Just about every story has already been told and retold again over the years. What's important is putting your own spin on the idea and making it yours. You can complain about Twilight Saga and vampires all day all you want, but I'm pretty sure Stephanie Meyer also made bank on the storyline which no matter how you put it, is success. Back the OP, this is like at least the second thread I've come across that has one or more rants in it revolving a myriad of things. You claim to have come to these forums in attempt to better yourself as a writer. From my experience there's only one surefire way to actually improve at the craft and that's to write. Its as simple as that.


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## Olly Buckle (Oct 18, 2013)

> From my experience there's only one surefire way to actually improve at the craft and that's to write. Its as simple as that.


There is some truth in this, I also find that constructive critique helps, destructive criticism is simply another form of rant, going over known themes. To be constructive requires one to take on board the writer's attempt and look for ways it could improve, ie. one is required to *think* about what is appropriate rather than simply to state already held opinions. This seems to have a transfer effect onto one's own writing.


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## qwertyman (Oct 18, 2013)

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270088&highlight=farts

Try this ^^^

It's a bit cliquey.


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## The Tourist (Oct 18, 2013)

Olly, this isn't the first time I've felt this type of criticism.  It seems that if you want to go your own way for personal development it really rattles the preconceived ideas of some.  But at the day's end, why do they care what I do?

I have a theory.  Clearly I need to do some reflection, more research and get differing perspectives to complete a book that satisfies my own standards.  If I need those additions, then it infers that the wunderkinds might not have all the answers.  Heck, I'm not sure they know all the questions.

The seasoning and needed atmosphere I also need do not come with the tag-line "there's an app for that."  It comes from the same problem solving regimen that's worked for me in the past.  That being sweat, a little pain, listening to an inner voice and not taking the same easy path the crowd does.


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## tabasco5 (Oct 18, 2013)

In an effort to impress an accomplished businessman, Dale Carnegie once sent a letter to the man and wrote "Dictated but not Read" on the cover to prove his own importance.  The response he got simply stated: "Your bad manners are exceeded only by your bad manners."


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## Jamie (Oct 18, 2013)

I've been frantically searching for this forum for you, The Tourist. I haven't slept in 48 hours. It's been tough, and I haven't found it yet, but by God I will. I feel I have to.


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## The Tourist (Oct 18, 2013)

Jamie said:


> I've been frantically searching for this forum for you, The Tourist. I haven't slept in 48 hours. It's been tough, and I haven't found it yet, but by God I will. I feel I have to.



LOL.  Yeah, I'll bet, anything to get me out the door...

But try not to laugh too hard.  One old guy told me when I was in my twenties to "just blink" and I would be retired.  I laughed about it.  

So, I say to you, too, just blink.

Look in the mirror.  If you're lucky you have gray hair, if not, you're bald.  Kids think you're an anachronism.  One pretty young girl opened the door for you the other day, and gave you a look of pity when she said, "I'll get that for you, sir..."

Salesmen show you gray colored clothes.  No wingtips for you, the sales guy asks if you like something "more comfortable."  Even when the cop tells the mugger that he's surprised the felon is still alive, the punk insists the last seven blows were "all lucky."  It would be funny if it wasn't true. 

Commercials don't target your concerns.  Doctors start using phrases like "watchful waiting."  Your restaurant seating is more towards the can than the front window.

Just blink, son.  I dare you.


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## Mutimir (Oct 18, 2013)

My theory is older writers are too busy working on their writing to spend time on internet forums. It's like they are playing beat the clock. Second guessing and pondering isn't their interest. They are focusing on creating, distributing and promoting their work.


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## bookmasta (Oct 18, 2013)

Mutimir said:


> My theory is older writers are too busy working on their writing to spend time on internet forums. It's like they are playing beat the clock. Second guessing and pondering isn't their interest. They are focusing on creating, distributing and promoting their work.



I was just thinking about this. Usually older writers are the ones giving out the advice rather than seeking it. Since they themselves presumably have had a lifetime's worth of experience in the field of writing the would far outweigh what most internet forums could give, but that's just a guess.


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## The Tourist (Oct 18, 2013)

Mutimir said:


> My theory is older writers are too busy working on their writing to spend time on internet forums. It's like they are playing beat the clock. Second guessing and pondering isn't their interest. They are focusing on creating, distributing and promoting their work.



Normally, you'd be right.  I've been looking at four days of rain.  Being house bound makes me chatty.

I'm admittedly a seasonal writer.  I don't get the itch until football season is well under way.  Then it starts very slowly.  I look at (any) forum as just "pump priming."  In fact, if there was a local creative writing forum in my area I would join it.

The problem I am having is not with the book, per se, but the place in the book and my reluctance on writing transitional chapters.  Like lots of folks, I want the plot to "move."  But the nice thing about being retired is that I get cookies before dinner, clocks mean nothing, and every day is the weekend.

It's after 10:00PM now, and I just started a fresh pot of coffee.


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## Mutimir (Oct 18, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Normally, you'd be right.  I've been looking at four days of rain.  Being house bound makes me chatty.
> 
> I'm admittedly a seasonal writer.  I don't get the itch until football season is well under way.  Then it starts very slowly.  I look at (any) forum as just "pump priming."  In fact, if there was a local creative writing forum in my area I would join it.
> 
> ...



I'm basing my theory on observing an older writer. What I witnessed is someone more focused on exposure than self-improvement. I'm not really sure you get much exposure on internet forums. Mostly you are tweaking work that's in production. Essentially unfinished, unpolished crap. I have many folders filled to the brim. 

This older writer is a member of a local writers group but he seemed to indicate that he did not receive much from that. The older writer views more things like nonsense than valuable knowledge. I think as you get older you begin to get less tolerant of all the nonsense. You begin to get discouraged with the quest for knowledge and value leaving your stamp on this world.


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## The Tourist (Oct 18, 2013)

I wouldn't characterize the displeasure as simple "nonsense," but it exists for me.  It's more the case of seeing "new groundbreaking" things for the third time in your life.

And things bother me, no question.  You should see the terribly obese people in the gym, all of them struggling to get back into shape.  I wonder how many years have been cut off from their life span.

The lack of a work ethic bothers me.  I wrote the newspaper recently.  Coming from a financial background, the two biggest tax revenue engines were the WWII generation and the baby boomers.  Neither contribute now.  What happens when the lights go out in my country?

Lawlessness and privacy issues bother me.  I take precious little comfort in knowing that King Leonidas felt the same way.

Then again, give me a little slack on my lack of literary production from time to time.  LOL.  Hey, I paid FICA for 46 years, and technically I still work, albeit, sweating a lot less!


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## Nickleby (Oct 22, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> I wouldn't characterize the displeasure as simple "nonsense," but it exists for me.  It's more the case of seeing "new groundbreaking" things for the third time in your life.



That's exactly what young people don't understand. Eventually, the people you meet all remind you of someone you already know. The stories in the news are all Mad Libs, where the names change but the lessons remain the same. If you live long enough, you see that history rhymes in places and simply repeats itself in other places because nobody bothered to come up with a new refrain.

For those of us who haven't given up, we can try to teach those lessons to future generations. The machines can predict our behavior up to a point, but we still have a monopoly on humanity.


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## The Tourist (Oct 22, 2013)

Nickleby said:


> For those of us who haven't given up, we can try _*to teach*_ those lessons to future generations. The machines can predict our behavior up to a point, but we still have a monopoly on humanity.



Hmmm.  I'm not sure "teach" is the correct word.  To many people it comes off as 'preach.'

I think "coach" or "mentor" is a better option.  Now granted, I got my butt severely kicked by "mentors."  But you have to consider the times and the milieu.  Heck, I was lucky I wasn't hospitalized or killed.

I would ask youth to consider the stories of success they hear.  For example, an uncle might begin with, "Going into the army was the best thing that ever happened to me."

I have come to believe that only hard things pay dividends.  There is no candy-coated way to sell that idea.  Winning hurts.  Gaining something means losing something else.  The phrase/ideal of "no pain no gain" is a slight misnomer.

Without pain there can never be gain.


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## Olly Buckle (Oct 23, 2013)

> You should see the terribly obese people in the gym, all of them struggling to get back into shape.


Hey Mr. Pint Half Empty, they have recognised the problem and are struggling to put it right, these are potential winners, go down the hamburger joint and see the ones still stuffing their faces without a thought, they are the real losers. The world has not become one thing, a uniform youth, there is still as much variation in people as there ever was, it is you turning into a sterotypicall old man, not youngsters turning into stereotypicall youth. Luckily that 'Rock and roll music and wild dancing' didn't really destroy the brains, as our parent's generation predicted, and some of the present generation seem to be giving you a fair run for your money here too. 

You could have another thirty years left, are you going to waste them all in negativity or start looking for the bright side? You polish Japanese swords; why not get in touch with an instructor and see if you can take one down to your local Kendo class to give them a talk, it might blow your mind to find a group of hard working, keen, fit, young people at the core of it, though on second thoughts you might only notice the newbie who wants to be a ten second expert.

A forum for older writers, why should it be any different from this one? You won't remember The Backward Ox, he died a little while ago, but he was a man in his eighties who could get more out of a computer than most youngsters, write a witty and amusing story, and handled cancer, then lung cancer, with fortitude and determination never letting it get him down. I don't think he or I would fit in your forum, too much life left in us both right up to the end.


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## Trilby (Oct 23, 2013)

To be honest I have only read the first post and a odd post here and there on this thread and I do believe that there are more older members here than you might, at first imagine. 

I'm 71, but really that is neither here nor there! What matters is having something worth saying and the quality of the writing, surly no matter what age we are, we are here to share our writing experiences, knowledge and improve our own writing skills.

If you want to stay young then you need to be young at heart and I don't see a forum for the over 60s doing that.

These are writing forums - for writers'

Age is, as the saying goes, just a number.


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## Jeko (Oct 23, 2013)

I think you're just looking for people to agree with you, The Tourist, or at least sympathize with your outlook on life. If that is the case, you will be frequently and thoroughly disappointed, and any satisfaction you do get will not help you become a better writer.

If not the case, you're on the best writing forum on the net. People on here spend hours of their life here every day in order to enrich others and, in turn, themselves (or the other way round - either way, everyone is benefited). They provide you will lashings of opportunity to do the same.

There are other forums on the net where people only join to stroke their egos and add to a growing pool of self-imposed superiority. They won't help you become a better writer.


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## The Tourist (Oct 23, 2013)

Trilby said:


> Age is, as the saying goes, just a number.



I'm with you most of the way.  However, "age" more clearly defines the condition of your body.  I find that elements of stories reflect more of our "vintage."

For example, as a 71 year old writer, how many books of YA fiction have you written?  Tell me about the turbo you put on your ricer car.  Name the Kardashian girls.  How long did you stand in line for a new cell phone.  Who's the lead movie star in "Total Recall"?  That's a trick question.

Like it or not we become our own life's resume' of thoughts and actions.  Now this might sound odd, but in prison you can trace a man's life by his tattoos.  They document affiliations, and some art is anchored in a specific time period.  Even my colors have badges and patches clearly defining the 1960s which would not be present on the jackets of newer members.  And those are just the things on your outside.

Whether you know it or not, you make decisions based in part on what your dad told you over 60 years ago.  You go back to an area known for being a pristine wilderness and you find a sign touting their WiFi.  If you're a veteran, a history book will never be as complete as your nightmares.

You are a product of "time," and it permeates every thing, every thought and each action you begin.


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## tabasco5 (Oct 23, 2013)

You may want to check out the .org version of this forum, that being writingforums.org.  It seems that there is more focus on writing discussion on that forum and less chest beating.  It is more of a coffee shop, whereas this forum is more of a saloon.


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## The Tourist (Oct 23, 2013)

fenbields5 said:


> whereas this forum is more of a saloon.



Too bad, I'm more comfortable in saloons.  That's good and bad.  My nose looks like it does because of saloons, but I also met the woman I loved in a Sicilian bar called "Parisi's."

(Due to forum rules I cannot tell you what they called their signature cheeseburger.  Imagine their ad for the sandwich was in bright glowing colors and called "The Dayglo Burger."  'Nuff said.  I might be banned sooner or later--but why make it easy?  LOL.)


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## Pandora (Oct 23, 2013)

I'll take a saloon any day ;-)  

I actually kind of get the decades of life and the similar growth that is made on our human paths.
I haven't yet experienced my couple final decades, if I am so lucky. Living is learning. 
The evolution of the human spirit is what can not be denied.


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## The Tourist (Oct 23, 2013)

Pandora said:


> I'll take a saloon any day...I haven't yet experienced my couple final decades, if I am so lucky.



Amen to that.  *Give me a high six*

Hopefully we'll all learn before the end.  Consider the lyrics of 'Running On Empty.'

_"If I can get to the smile before I leave."_


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## qwertyman (Oct 24, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Amen to that.  *Give me a high six*_"_



Mmmmn, you're not from the Appalachians are you?


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## The Tourist (Oct 24, 2013)

qwertyman said:


> Mmmmn, you're not from the Appalachians are you?



It's an inside joke.  Right, Grape Juice Vampire?  :grin:


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## Pandora (Oct 25, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Amen to that.  *Give me a high six*
> 
> Hopefully we'll all learn before the end.  Consider the lyrics of 'Running On Empty.'
> 
> _"If I can get to the smile before I leave."_


mmm Jackson Browne sweet

when I'm out of here I'll be singing this one

_"Workin on a mystery, goin wherever it leads
Runnin down a dream"_


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## The Tourist (Oct 25, 2013)

Pandora said:


> _"Workin on a mystery, goin wherever it leads
> Runnin down a dream"_



I wore this tape out in my 1989 5.0 Mustang.  It was black, which explains this inside joke:


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## qwertyman (Oct 26, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> It's an inside joke.  Right, Grape Juice Vampire?  :grin:



No just obscure.



> _Amen to that. *Give me a high six*_



 Implies six fingers > in-breeding > Deliverance > Appalachians. (qwerty hums to self)

I once wrote a short story for a writers group here in rural Ireland.

It was about a melodeon competition in  the local Corlin Valley (real name withheld). The winner was disqualified because he failed to declare his sixth finger (he played in gloves until the final).

Prior to the writers meeting I sent it to a friend, who, on reading it, was so concerned for my safety, he met me outside the meeting grabbed the manuscript and set fire to it!


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## The Tourist (Oct 26, 2013)

Qwerty, I wish the explanation was that deep and interesting, but it's not.

Let me give you an example.  If one of your characters was Irish, chances are you'd give him the quintessential flaming red hair.  Perhaps you might go against type and give him raven black hair, but the issue is you would probably mention it, even to point out a difference.  Even when readers imagine certain individual people and places, they paint first with a broad brush.  If you plunk your story down in Paris, what's the first thing people envision?

So it is with my lead.  If a horse is a appaloosa it has a blanket spotted rump.  If it's a Yugo it leaks oil and starts hard.  If you're my lead in this story you have six fingers.


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## qwertyman (Oct 27, 2013)

So...you're not from the Appalachians? Is your blanket horse with alopecia from the Appalachians? 

Is Yugo related? 

The first thing I think of if a story is set in Paris is deodorant.

~

I think what we have here is a communication failure.  

We are two nations separated by a common language.


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## The Tourist (Oct 27, 2013)

qwertyman said:


> The first thing I think of if a story is set in Paris is deodorant.



LOL.  I'm with you there.  The first thing I think about is my French Lebel rifle.  It's in perfect condition, except for one scratch, when it was thrown down in surrender...

But humor aside, the human mind always tries to make sense out of chaos.  If you give a person one piece of information their mind creates a wide, albeit simplistic, scenario.  As details are added the picture is refined.  Consider a police sketch artist, the first thing is the shape of the face.

Now, we might joke about six fingers on the lead, but it's only one of a dozen literary attributes of my lead.  And taken as a whole, it defines him.  It's not a rigid concept, but I tapped into it to tell the story.


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