# Things you'd like to see in fantasy?



## gabriel lockhart (Apr 20, 2014)

pretty self explanatory.

What sort of stuff would you like to see in a fantasy story... it doesn't matter, sex, violence, types of landscape or character types etc...

hit me with your best ideas...:unconscious:


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## Clove (Apr 20, 2014)

More diversity of ethnicity and colour? Or dragonz. Moar dragon sex plz.


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## Riptide (Apr 20, 2014)

Haha, Isn't fantasy kinda everything?


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## BeckytheFish (Apr 20, 2014)

There aren't enough Centaurs in fantasy stories. I mean I know there are centaurs in Harry Potter, Narnia, and Percy Jackson, but if you think about it, in the wide world of fantasy stories... they're pretty rare! Which sucks because they are awesome!


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## popsprocket (Apr 20, 2014)

Less dragons. Zero dragons is a good number. I hate dragons. They make me feel like I'm reading some pulp fantasy book from 1950.

A steady hand with political intrigue. The entertainment value of political intrigue isn't endless, make sure it's balanced out with action of some other kind.

Different settings. Desert civilisations, horse peoples, canal cities, worlds that don't even remotely resemble Earth, worlds set in a time period that is NOT reminiscent of the dark ages, muskets and flintlock weapons, cannons and naval battles, interesting non-elemental magics, females whose sole purpose isn't for sparking various conflicts for the characters, characters that aren't all 20-something handsome men and beautiful women, stories where countries use governance systems other than feudalism...

That should get you started? 

Also, overpowered characters. I'd like to see more of those. They're my favourite when done right. "Oh, he could crack the world in two but has simply decided not to do so."


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## Greimour (Apr 20, 2014)

Essay that had more about what I would like to see less of has been deleted...

@ Pops... I  would sooner say "more" dragons than "less dragons" ... but I would probably say less of these namby pamby dragons that get defeated by heroes with specially made shields and spears. Less of the beast-like dragons that have intelligence to some degree, may even talk, but are severely lacking in everything scary. The best dragon was either Smaug (in the film) or Draco (voice of Sean Connery) in Dragonheart. 

I think a community of dragons - maybe even with buildings civilization and towns and cities (or perhaps not) - with the intelligence and attitudes matching man (or Draco as mentioned above) and not in any way under obligations or whims of another species (like would be a freakin' horse) then I would like to see those kind of dragons

instead:


I would like to see more magical communities. 
Books for examples:

The Black Magician Saga (Trudi Canavan)
Age of Five Trilogy (Trudi Canavan)
The Innocent Mage - King maker/King breaker series (Karen Miller) - though I didn't like much of how it was written I still liked the story itself.
Harry Potter (J K Rowling)
Skullduggery Pleasant (Derek Landy) - I think of him (the author) as a bit of a genius... The funny, witty and magical skeleton would give Sherlock a run for his money.


Whether the community exists in secret aside human, coincides with life of human... or is void of non-magical people... I like reading how communities with magic find their own types of problems. Like mickey mouse screwing up a cleaning spell and flooding his masters study... or Minister of Magic Fudge stating to the British prime minister that being magic didn't make it any easier to catch bad guys - reminding him that the bad guys had magic too.

I don't want to give more examples because it will spoil other stories if they read it here first and read the books used in example later.

So... Magical Communities (That Aren't Elves - or at least... not outshone by Elven Magic if Elves exist too)


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## dale (Apr 20, 2014)

large bosomed women and violent destructive magick and swords and interesting humanoid creatures that people can point fingers at and call "racist".
(yeah. i know. that's just fantasy already out there. but to hell with it. when it's good, it's good)


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## bazz cargo (Apr 20, 2014)

A democratic government and no royal intrigue.


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## dale (Apr 20, 2014)

bazz cargo said:


> A democratic government.



now that IS fantasy in the extreme.


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## bazz cargo (Apr 20, 2014)

> now that IS fantasy in the extreme.


Asked I was...


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## Greimour (Apr 20, 2014)

Clove said:


> More diversity of ethnicity and colour? Or dragonz. Moar dragon sex plz.



regarding the link - more diversity and colour seemed to be about how few people there were that 'wrote' or 'published' that were not white.

I thought you were saying stories needs more colour and ethnicity... I was going to point out that MANY films you see are based on books and characters within are usually the same colour/ethnicity as in the book - which reminds me of a million or so dumbasses who read Hunger Games. Rue isn't White?!

However, your link complains about publishers and agents being white.
Sorry, but I doubt all that many are white. Perhaps they do have the majority globally... but there will be countries that have fewer white publishers and agents than other countries. Besides all that... there is nothing stopping a none white person from opening a publishing house or becoming an agent. Crap like that is annoying.



> A young writer that I mentor reached out to me last week. “None of these  agents look like me,” she said, “and they don’t represent anyone that  looks like me.” She’s wrapping up a final draft of her first novel and  I’d told her to research literary agencies to get a feel for what’s out  there. “What if they don’t get what I’m doing?”



So if your young writer was white, the agent would understand? Or if the Agent/Publisher was the same ethnicity as your writer, they would understand?
Don't talk -bleep-



> I thought back over the many interactions I’d had with agents – all but two of them white


How many did you speak to? 4?



> “I don’t know,” I said. Useless words, but it was all I had in that  moment. I don’t. There are so many paths to success, so many meanings of  the concept, and race and power complicate the equation infinitely.  It’s not enough for writers of color to learn craft, we need to navigate  the impossible waters of an unwelcoming industry. I flailed for words  that would prepare her for all that lay ahead; none came.



“I don’t know,” I said. Useless words, but it was all I had in that  moment.* I don’t. *
Did you miss the word 'know' there? or did you mean didn't*? or am I being thick? .. Whatever, I barely understand your point throughout this thread and I disagree with almost everything that I am understanding correctly.

Top of my head: Black Authors:
Toni Morrison
Zora Neale Hurston
Alice Walker
Octavia E Butler
Eric Jerome Dickey

... Clove, I don't know what directed you to that site or what connection you have to it - but being of any non-white ethnicity in no way prevents you from becoming a published author. No more difficulties than being white anyway.
 If you fear not being understood, write in the same language as the agent/publisher - goes a long way. 
That crap about "can't connect with your character"... what the hell? 
I couldn't connect with Jamal Malik - but it didn't stop me loving Slumdog Millionare and I did connect with at least the love he had for 'what's-her-face' 


Harry Potter went on to make fortunes... that was rejected by 12 publishing houses... so don't blame agents being a different colour or whatever... don't blame their comments on your story. Fix the story how they said or keep searching for the right publisher/agent. 

That whole thread (in the link) annoyed me a little. I am not blind to racism, but claiming people can't succeed based on race is crap. 
No matter your race is, there is people that have already _*proven*_ you can make it within the writing industry.


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## Bishop (Apr 20, 2014)

Might be just me, but when I sit down to create elements of my world (or when I created it in the beginning) I thought about only what *I* wanted in my story. That seems like the only way I'd be happy with my story.


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## popsprocket (Apr 20, 2014)

bazz cargo said:


> A democratic government and no royal intrigue.



Challenge accepted.


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## Greimour (Apr 20, 2014)

Bishop said:


> Might be just me, but when I sit down to create elements of my world (or when I created it in the beginning) I thought about only what *I* wanted in my story. That seems like the only way I'd be happy with my story.


Ditto. But sometimes having input of others can create the flow of ideas. For example, I didn't write about elves and witches and stuff until my brother asked me to include a witch. I found it fun and now I seem to always have magic in my stories. Or almost always... Definitely always if Love counts because any that doesn't have magic has love instead.



bazz cargo said:


> A democratic government and no royal intrigue.





popsprocket said:


> Challenge accepted.



Haha Pops, I kind of imagined your stories would already meet that criteria no matter what the genre was. ^_^


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## popsprocket (Apr 20, 2014)

Greimour said:


> Haha Pops, I kind of imagined your stories would already meet that criteria no matter what the genre was. ^_^



Shh! If people know that I've already done it then accepting the challenge won't seem cool anymore!


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## T.S.Bowman (Apr 20, 2014)

BeckytheFish said:


> There aren't enough Centaurs in fantasy stories. I mean I know there are centaurs in Harry Potter, Narnia, and Percy Jackson, but if you think about it, in the wide world of fantasy stories... they're pretty rare! Which sucks because they are awesome!



Try reading some of the Xanth novels by Piers Anthony. LOTS of Centaurs in some of them.

- - - Updated - - -



popsprocket said:


> Less dragons. Zero dragons is a good number. I hate dragons. They make me feel like I'm reading some pulp fantasy book from 1950.



*makes mental note to NEVER ask pops for a review


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## Clove (Apr 21, 2014)

> ... Clove, I don't know what directed you to that site or what connection you have to it - but being of any non-white ethnicity in no way prevents you from becoming a published author. No more difficulties than being white anyway.



Firstly, I didn't write the article, but found it online and thought it was an interesting read especially since it seemed to be rewriting a few of the arguments I see a lot of the time regarding diversity and fantasy/SF. 

Secondly, the article wasn't saying that being non-white prevented you outright from becoming published, but implied that there were difficulties. Not everything, as much as you would like, is equal and roses. Why is it not impossible to believe that the literature industry, as with most other industries, is still susceptible to things like discrimination? On just having done a google-search, there are plenty of articles on racism in publishing: from white-washing of covers, to an 'Asian' author rejected because the publishing house already had an 'Asian' author. 

The question of publishers being white and the lack of diversity, as explained in the article, is related. If publishers themselves aren't diverse how can you expect the stuff they publish - and therefore filters down as what 'literature' should be - to be diverse? Since it's the publishing world that decides what stories get through, they, in essence, define how diverse the shelf in your bookshop that's titled 'Fantasy.' So when it comes down to representation, say in children's literature, or fantasy, how represented are Black, Asian, Minority Ethnic, characters and by extension role-models really? That is what I would like to know. 



> Sorry, but I doubt all that many are white. Perhaps they do have the majority globally... but there will be countries that have fewer white publishers and agents than other countries.


Why would you doubt that most people in American/British publishing houses are white? Obviously, the article - and problem - was specific to those countries from the article's writers POV. 



> Did you miss the word 'know' there? or did you mean didn't*? or am I being thick? .. Whatever, I barely understand your point throughout this thread and I disagree with almost everything that I am understanding correctly.
> 
> Top of my head: Black Authors:
> Toni Morrison
> ...


Congratulations, you picked out a random list of black writers throughout history and genre! And through that you're somehow able to disprove any kind of institutional racism? Regardless, the article itself was focused on specifically _fantasy_, so a fairer task would be to choose African-Americans writing genre. Just because you can name one or two does not argue against what may happen to the majority - in the same way that by naming one or two powerful women in business, I have no right to say gender equality has already been reached.


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## popsprocket (Apr 21, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> *makes mental note to NEVER ask pops for a review



Haha, have no fear. I'd never mark someone down just for having a story element I don't like. Besides, I'm better at critting technical skills than content, so unless you misspelled the word 'dragon' you're safe!


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## stormageddon (Apr 21, 2014)

To return to topic before I depart from it, I'd like to see a fantasy world that was original- where rather than tossing in dragons and elves, everything in it was a creation of the authors own mind, and not borrowed from lore/other writers. I'm just so bored with all the samey stuff that's out there at the moment. That said, I love the way dragons have been integrated into GoT, so maybe it's just whether or not the writer really makes the thing their own.

And I second the "women as real characters" thing. One thing I cannot stand about fantasy is how pathetic the women often are. Give me another Arya!

Now, racism.

Literature is a weird one; books are one of the few places that racism can go unquestioned, and that gives me a lot of mixed feelings. Take HP Lovecraft, one of my favourite authors- massive racist. So can I really say he's a favourite author when if I met him in real life I would want to punch him in the face? Tolkien- actually my favourite author. Massive racist, or it seems so from his writing. Humanwise, all or nearly all the good people in LotR are white, and the evil humans are usually "swarthy" or black. Makes me want to cry. Obviously, these are olden days authors and I doubt someone trying to be published now would so easily be able to be openly racist in their work, but still, how often do you hear people say Tolkien was a genius? And how often do you hear it mentioned that he, commonly termed Master of Fantasy, was a racist (or potentially a racist, I'm still clinging to the hope that he did it by accident)?

I'd honestly be surprised if there isn't some degree of institutional racism in publishing - you see it just about everywhere else in society. Just look at employment figures for minority ethnicities vs white people. To state that the reason somebody is struggling to be a successful writer is solely due to their ethnicity...well, it's a wobbly argument, because it's not something that can be proven or disproven, and few writers are as good as they think they are. But looking at the diversity (or lack thereof) of published authors, particularly in fantasy, something clearly isn't quite right.

I don't really understand why someone would think that someone of differing ethnicity would not understand their characters as a result of that difference; we're all people.

I would point out, given that many fantasy books contain orcs/elve/dwarves/goblins/centaurs etc as distinct races, the diversity argument can be difficult to apply to the actual content of the novel, though something I notice a lot in fantasy set in nowadays or hereabouts is a white lead character with a black "sidekick", but one rarely sees the inverse v.v a lot of people are under-represented in literature though. Take the LGBT community - how often do you see them featured in fantasy? Ignoring GoT  and what about the poor asexuals? Most people don't know/believe that asexuality is a real thing v.v

Anyway, I'm going to stop rambling now because I'm getting depressed. OP, something wonderful to include would be diversity of gender, ethnicity and sexuality.


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## popsprocket (Apr 21, 2014)

stormageddon said:


> To return to topic before I depart from it, I'd like to see a fantasy world that was original- where rather than tossing in dragons and elves, everything in it was a creation of the authors own mind, and not borrowed from lore/other writers.



Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive series, if you have't already heard of it. It's set on a world constantly ravaged by storms where just the wind can kill a man and leaving someone outside in a storm is a form of execution. All plant and animal life has evolved to survive in such a climate (there's a lot of exoskeletal creatures and plants that retract below ground or into shells when disturbed).


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## stormageddon (Apr 21, 2014)

popsprocket said:


> Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive series, if you have't already heard of it. It's set on a world constantly ravaged by storms where just the wind can kill a man and leaving someone outside in a storm is a form of execution. All plant and animal life has evolved to survive in such a climate (there's a lot of exoskeletal creatures and plants that retract below ground or into shells when disturbed).


O.M.G. That sounds awesome, dunno how I've never heard of it. Will certainly be checking it out; I do love a good storm


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## T.S.Bowman (Apr 21, 2014)

popsprocket said:


> Haha, have no fear. I'd never mark someone down just for having a story element I don't like. Besides, I'm better at critting technical skills than content, so unless you misspelled the word 'dragon' you're safe!



Well...I may wind up with a lot of typos in my work, but they aren't a result of not being able to spell.


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## T.S.Bowman (Apr 21, 2014)

Here are a couple of things I would like to see in Fantasy writing.

For one, and the thing that irritates me more than anything...The writers who have decided to follow the herd and think that creating character names with random apostrophes inserted makes a name sound Fantasyish. IT doesn't. It just makes them hard to read.

The other thing I would love to see...a writer who doesn't use 100 words to describe something that could be described in 20. A good Epic Fantasy is one thing. But sometimes I think these writers get carried away or feel like they have to show off.


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## dale (Apr 21, 2014)

stormageddon said:


> To return to topic before I depart from it, I'd like to see a fantasy world that was original- where rather than tossing in dragons and elves, everything in it was a creation of the authors own mind, and not borrowed from lore/other writers. I'm just so bored with all the samey stuff that's out there at the moment. That said, I love the way dragons have been integrated into GoT, so maybe it's just whether or not the writer really makes the thing their own.
> 
> And I second the "women as real characters" thing. One thing I cannot stand about fantasy is how pathetic the women often are. Give me another Arya!
> 
> ...



i don't see where so called "diversity' is needed if the story doesn't call for it. i can't stand how people in arts/literature try to force scenarios
out of "social sensitivities". take donald goines. a black writer who writes pretty much exclusively about black urban culture. his target audience
is primarily black. should he also become more "diverse" and include more white people in his urban tales, even though they don't belong there?


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## Bishop (Apr 21, 2014)

dale said:


> i don't see where so called "diversity' is needed if the story doesn't call for it. i can't stand how people in arts/literature try to force scenarios
> out of "social sensitivities". take donald goines. a black writer who writes pretty much exclusively about black urban culture. his target audience
> is primarily black. should he also become more "diverse" and include more white people in his urban tales, even though they don't belong there?



Personally, as a sci-fi writer, diversity for me means more aliens.


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## dale (Apr 21, 2014)

Bishop said:


> Personally, as a sci-fi writer, diversity for me means more aliens.



lol. ok. but for the sensitive people's sake? do try to make your evil aliens lily white. anything else is "racist". ha ha


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## Bishop (Apr 21, 2014)

dale said:


> lol. ok. but for the sensitive people's sake? do try to make your evil aliens lily white. anything else is "racist". ha ha



WELL. My evil aliens are dark blue. I have three major races of good alien: One white (oops!  ), one golden, and the last is like a chameleon--can change their skin color and pattern at will. I also have black-skin with white stripes (like a reverse zebra), as well as a red skin, and an amphibious people who are brown with white torsos and are rather oily. I have non-corporeal races, and cybernetic races...

SO. If that's not diverse...


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## Apple Ice (Apr 21, 2014)

I've always found it a bit odd that nearly all fantasy writers have copy and pasted Tolkiens ideas and no one really bats an eyelid, it's clear theft I think. Although I suppose LOTR was the godfather of it all and so they had to start from somewhere.

As for the racism thing, I'm with dale. Can you imagine the day that quotas are introduced to fantasy writers. "10% more dark-skinned men, 23% breast reduction, 78% more light-skinned bad guys and absolutely no mention of any colours as it may offend someone of that colour." 

What I like to see in fantasy - The Eragon series had, I think, the best bad guy I have possibly ever seen. He was amazing. He was incredibly over-powered, charismatic, intelligent, mad, and for me so much more relate-able than the protagonist. Even his name was the bees knees "Galbatorix" Get your bad guy right and you've got me as a reader. Also remember every bad person has good traits just as every good person has bad traits.

Also, for the love of every deity that ever lived, your protagonist, make him human. They are so often the shining beacon of virtue. These characters tend to be the most boring stock of characters as they have no souls. They are just husks and to this extent not believable as humans. The protagonist and antagonist are very important, if you find a striking balance between the two you are golden. Even occasionally make the lines between good and evil blurred. 

And as other have said, try and keep your description to a minimal. Clothes are just clothes and tables are just tables. Thats RR Martins biggest pit fall, I think.

Last thing, throughout the Eragon series I knew the good would win. If the baddies had won I would have jumped for joy and deemed it the best fantasy book I've read and therefore existed. That's just a personal preference of course and many people like the goodies to win. 

Good luck with it all, though, as I'm sensing this thread is going to explode and take a turn for the worst. I predict a 8 post red/blue font-ed warning followed by a possible closure of the thread.


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## T.S.Bowman (Apr 21, 2014)

dale said:


> i don't see where so called "diversity' is needed if the story doesn't call for it. i can't stand how people in arts/literature try to force scenarios
> out of "social sensitivities". take donald goines. a black writer who writes pretty much exclusively about black urban culture. his target audience
> is primarily black. should he also become more "diverse" and include more white people in his urban tales, even though they don't belong there?



The current double standards in political correctness would say "No. He doesn't have to because of who he is and who/what he's writing about."


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## T.S.Bowman (Apr 21, 2014)

Bishop said:


> , as well as a red skin,



You'll never get away with the "red skin" thing. You are likely to piss off the Native Americans.  LOL


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## Clove (Apr 21, 2014)

I think a lot of you are missing the point. Nobody is saying you should make sure all your writings meet a certain quota in order to be more diverse, with a check-list on one hand and an IKEA colour-chart on the other. The article in question, which I linked on the previous page, clearly argues that the problem lies in the publishers who are not publishing books that already have within them diversity (for example, main characters that are BAME), going on to criticise this underrepresentation as problematic for a diverse audience of readers.


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## dale (Apr 21, 2014)

Clove said:


> I think a lot of you are missing the point. Nobody is saying you should make sure all your writings meet a certain quota in order to be more diverse, with a check-list on one hand and an IKEA colour-chart on the other. The article in question, which I linked on the previous page, clearly argues that the problem lies in the publishers who are not publishing books that already have within them diversity (for example, main characters that are BAME), going on to criticise this underrepresentation as problematic for a diverse audience of readers.



but really? fantasy doesn't have a real diverse audience of readers. probably 80% of high fantasy readers are white males.
that's not saying that there aren't some female or colored people reading it...but for the most part? it's white males. publishers
publish what will sell. if those "diverse" fantasy books weren't published? it was because they didn't have the market potential 
of the ones that were. you can bet that.


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## Bishop (Apr 21, 2014)

Clove said:


> ...with a check-list on one hand and an IKEA colour-chart on the other.



I'm totally going to get one of those now and just cover every spectrum I can with a new alien.


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## Clove (Apr 21, 2014)

dale said:


> but really? fantasy doesn't have a real diverse audience of readers. probably 80% of high fantasy readers are white males.
> that's not saying that there aren't some female or colored people reading it...but for the most part? it's white males. publishers
> publish what will sell. if those "diverse" fantasy books weren't published? it was because they didn't have the market potential
> of the ones that were. you can bet that.



But that's the exact point I - and the article - was making. If publishers determine what sells, then they are assuming, I hope wrongly, that white male readers do not want to read books about female characters, or concerning people of colour? Because god forbid you come into contact with _those_ types of books.


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## dale (Apr 21, 2014)

Clove said:


> But that's the exact point I - and the article - was making. If publishers determine what sells, then they are assuming, I hope wrongly, that white male readers do not want to read books about female characters, or concerning people of colour? Because god forbid you come into contact with _those_ types of books.



 lol. my point is....i doubt a publishing company ANYWHERE held a meeting and said...."ok, gentlemen. even though these authors who write the high fantasy books with small breasted and unattractive women and blacks heroes and white villians would make us SO much more money than the large breasted women/ northern climate skin tone heroes...i say we just don't publish them anyway because we want to continue being sexist, racist pricks." ha ha. never upon a  time was that meeting held. believe that.


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## Apple Ice (Apr 21, 2014)

Starting to deviate from the OP quite a bit here. I'm sure the topic would do very well with its own thread, though. There's obviously a lot of opinions about it.


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## stormageddon (Apr 21, 2014)

dale said:


> i don't see where so called "diversity' is needed if the story doesn't call for it. i can't stand how people in arts/literature try to force scenarios
> out of "social sensitivities". take donald goines. a black writer who writes pretty much exclusively about black urban culture. his target audience
> is primarily black. should he also become more "diverse" and include more white people in his urban tales, even though they don't belong there?


If the story doesn't call for it, then fair enough. Never said it wasn't. But say I were to write a story set in London, and I only included white people...actually, that would just be plain dumb. London is my favourite place ever because it's so diverse, British born white people officially became a minority here a year or two ago. It's fascinating, having a hundred different cultures on your doorstep. But I shall restrain my rambling, as it is irrelevant.

Now, in an attempt to say something of value. Take a gander at Hollywood. Think of the ethnicity of the protagonist in any movies that spring to mind- the number of white protagonists is irrefutably disproportionate to the diversity of the population. A similar thing happens in literature, but yes, as you say, there are some works that this racism by omission doesn't/can't apply to.

Alongside this, the diversity of fantasy authors does not reflect that of the population. What's going on there, I do wonder?

Edit: hang on! Women read fantasy as much as men, if only because women are more likely to read than men, or at least at my age they are. All the girls/women I know are obsessed with fantasy. And very few of the menfolk I know actually read, they just listen to audio books. "80% white male" is leagues off the truth. And if ethnic minorities don't read as much fantasy, it's likely because they are majorly under-represented, at least as far as the protagonists.


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## dale (Apr 21, 2014)

stormageddon said:


> Alongside this, the diversity of fantasy authors does not reflect that of the population. What's going on there, I do wonder?


the diversity of rap music artists doesn't reflect that of the population, either. racist conspiracy there, too?


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## stormageddon (Apr 21, 2014)

Never claimed anything was a conspiracy either  and rap is more like that example author you gave. People's tastes in music are influenced by culture, and different ethnic groups have slightly and sometimes vastly different cultures, therefore will tend towards different music to one another. Tastes in literature are far less dependent on culture, or so I believe, and therefore it is clear that there is some other factor involved.

In sociology, I'm learning about the relationship between ethnicity and achievement in schools. We have to learn a lot of case studies, and many of them are very relevant to this discussion, but as this discussion is irrelevant to the OP, I'm not going to go into them. To sum them up, institutional racism is more of a subconscious thing, and often the result of who those with the power feel more "comfortable" with. For example, men are more likely to hire men, because they may feel even on a subconscious level that they understand men better than women. In the same way, a publisher might be more likely to publish a book if the author/protagonist matches their ethnicity/gender etc. This would also go some way to accounting for why the majority of published fantasy authors are male, and the majority of fantasy protagonists are male.

Sorry lockhart to have contributed to the derailing of your thread, hopefully you found the debating interesting, if not helpful >.>


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## dale (Apr 21, 2014)

stormageddon said:


> In sociology, I'm learning about the relationship between ethnicity and achievement in schools.



oh. i see. this explains a lot. nevermind.


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## Kevin (Apr 21, 2014)

Everybody knows white people are crazy. Even that dude down in Florida-- why'd he eat that other dude's face? Because he was hungry...


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## stormageddon (Apr 21, 2014)

Ah, dale, either you're selectively illiterate, or you're intentionally ignoring everything I say because you've run out of valid arguments. I shall take that victory~

World building is awesome in fantasy. If you can do the George R.R. Martin thing of building a vivid picture of an entire city in a sentence or two, that's the best way to do it in my opinion. For example: "Braavos was a crooked city. The streets were crooked, the alleys were crookeder, and the canals were crookedest of all." I could be alone in this, but that gave me a very vivid image of Braavos without bombarding me with imagery.


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## dale (Apr 21, 2014)

stormageddon said:


> Ah, dale, either you're selectively illiterate, or you're intentionally ignoring everything I say because you've run out of valid arguments. I shall take that victory~



sorry. i'm just not prejudiced enough against white people to entertain your indoctrinated delusions. as i've already pointed out, high fantasy
is basically a white cultural thing, the same as rap music would be a black cultural thing. there's no difference. but your so called "education"
leads you to believe that only white cultural phenomenon are to be considered forms of "racism". there's no need for me to continue a discussion
with your kind of prejudiced, indoctrinated mind.


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## Clove (Apr 21, 2014)

dale said:


> sorry. i'm just not prejudiced enough against white people to entertain your indoctrinated delusions. as i've already pointed out, high fantasy
> is basically a white cultural thing, the same as rap music would be a black cultural thing. there's no difference. but your so called "education"
> leads you to believe that only white cultural phenomenon are to be considered forms of "racism". there's no need for me to continue a discussion
> with your kind of prejudiced, indoctrinated mind.



Oh this is ridiculous. 'Rap music would be a black cultural thing'? 'High fantasy is basically a white cultural thing'? Do you not see how narrow-minded those comments are? Rap music is a global phenomenon - musicians rap in nearly every language. Rap music is enjoyed everywhere, and there are rap artists of all backgrounds, successful ones as well. Eminem? Macklemore? 

I really struggle to come to terms as to how you conclude that high fantasy is a 'white' culture genre?


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## dale (Apr 21, 2014)

Clove said:


> Oh this is ridiculous. 'Rap music would be a black cultural thing'? 'High fantasy is basically a white cultural thing'? Do you not see how narrow-minded those comments are? Rap music is a global phenomenon - musicians rap in nearly every language. Rap music is enjoyed everywhere, and there are rap artists of all backgrounds, successful ones as well. Eminem? Macklemore?
> 
> I really struggle to come to terms as to how you conclude that high fantasy is a 'white' culture genre?


ummmm...excuse me....but the person i was talking to called rap music a black cultural thing himself. 
and how is high fantasy related to white culture? because it basically originated through celtic/anglo/welsh/etc mythology.
king arthur, the druids, that kind of thing. it has a distinct cultural background to it. 
and yes...i understand that eminem raps and actually does it well....but face it...he's imitating black culture when he does it.


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## stormageddon (Apr 21, 2014)

dale said:


> ummmm...excuse me....but the person i was talking to called rap music a black cultural thing himself.
> and how is high fantasy related to white culture? because it basically originated through celtic/anglo/welsh/etc mythology.
> king arthur, the druids, that kind of thing. it has a distinct cultural background to it.
> and yes...i understand that eminem raps and actually does it well....but face it...he's imitating black culture when he does it.


Firstly, I'm a she. Secondly, I'm white, so obviously not prejudiced against myself. And thirdly, you're dismissing my opinions because I'm educated on the subject I'm talking about? Wow. Just wow xp

I didn't call rap a "black people thing", I pointed out that culture and therefore ethnicity has an influence on what music people listen to. I would like to say that I'm the farthest thing from indoctrinated possible, but I doubt you'll believe that. I would also like to ask why you _think_ I'm indoctrinated, and into what, precisely, but I'm not certain that you know yourself.

Lastly, the mythology of a country is a part of the culture of all of the people living in that country, not just the white ones. So while the inspiration for high fantasy has come from a predominantly white country, that does not make it what you might term a "white people thing". To say so is to deny people their own culture based on the colour of their skin, which I imagine you are against.


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## Greimour (Apr 21, 2014)

I stopped replying to the racist side of this comment because it's clear points of views are more diverse than publishing houses. 
Yes I selected black people throughout time at random of multiple genre's - and yes I think it proved my point - if one can, there is nothing stopping others.
I don't think the publishing industry is really that sexist either when it comes to authors...
The majority of people I know (like 99%+) that want to be authors are white... so if one person of another race blamed their race, color or whatever on not being published - I want to see their work and see for myself if he has a valid argument. Not believe articles or comments without being witness to it all myself. To me, if one man can do it - all men have the potential to do it. If one woman can do it, all women have the potential to do it. That's regardless of race or colour. If a black man can jump 12ft high, then all men, no matter the race, have the potential to reach that same feat.

One black man has been published - all black men that aspire to be authors, therefore, have the potential to meet that dream. That's all I was saying.



Apple Ice said:


> I've always found it a bit odd that nearly all  fantasy writers have copy and pasted Tolkiens ideas and no one really  bats an eyelid, it's clear theft I think. Although I suppose LOTR was  the godfather of it all and so they had to start from somewhere.



I don't fully agree with that Apple <3

Tolkien didn't create Elves and Dwarves and Goblins etc... They were myths and faeries and fairy tales - urban legends and folklore. He wasn't the first to write that kind of work either. But he did have an ENORMOUS hit with it's creation.
It is due to the impact Tolkien had on the genre that makes writing about the same things so difficult.

Much of LoTR and Hobbit and his entire world was dragged from other areas. Middle-Earth - Middle-Ages
Elves & Dwarves - Germanic Myths and Folklores - Norse Religions etc...

You can take almost anything created by Tolkien and find it's counterpart in existence before Tolkien was even born.

The problem is, if you write about them now - people naturally draw a comparison to Tolkiens writing - which is why I equally loved Eragon (though hate and despised the films)


P.S.

Storm, Clove, Dale... the 'debate' you are having has no end.

It sounded to me like Dale said - white racism isn't the only form of racism which seems to be the only kind you are arguing against and that is why he no longer replies to your view.
I can also understand his view about 'white heritage' makes it 'white culture' - Yes Britain now has many races.. but during anglo/saxon/Norse etc... eras, there was pretty much only white people. Moving the Rooster from the coop to the barn doesn't give it the heritages of a horse.

Storm, I don't disagree with much of what you or Clove say... but the point of 'publishers don't publish black authors' is a crock. I am not saying there is no discrimination in the world... this is reality after all. Maybe being white makes some doors easier to open - but being white doesn't actually open the door for me. Even the KKK wouldn't let a white man in unless he had the right mentality. We all have problems to face - against our own races and others. Equally, being black will open some doors easier opposed to a white person. 
For example, my cousin who has been working security and doors for over a decade didn't get a job because the inexperienced black man looked scarier! What kind of racist crap is that?

You want a bit of racism? I am a white male. When I was aged 21, Overqualified for a position and in good health, smart appearance and the perfect candidate for a typing job at a law firm - I lost out. I didn't mind too much, I was young, hopeful and prospects weren't thin on the ground at the time. Out of curiosity I asked: "Could I have feedback on my interview and application please? Would it be too much trouble? Would just like to know where I stumbled, where I could do better and if there is anything I can change to improve my chances with future employers."

The reply I got was: "Honestly... we wanted you. The other guy isn't half as qualified and his typing speed is nearly half of yours. Problem is, we are only taking on at all because the we need a minority or disabled person in our employ to comply with the Equality Act. It's not that we're against hiring such individuals - it's just that we haven't had any apply with the qualifications we require."

^ What the hell?! I don't get the job because I am white?! I was FUMING! 

Part 2:
A black man was hollering in the street about how white people oppressed his ancestors. Seeing me walking down the street with a coloured friend, he said: "Don't you know that his Grandparents or Great Grandparents probably had your Great Grandparents in Slavery?"
to which my friend said: "Maybe. But he didn't have me in slavery and my great grandparents fought for their freedom. They won it. They were proud and I am proud of them. But what are you fighting? An injustice committed by ancestors? Your great great garndaddy stole my great great grandaddies goat. Give me the goat back d'head!"

A white woman then stepped forward and argued against my friend whether or not todays white people are to blame for the injustices against the black slavery that was abolished so long ago. My friend defending white people - and the white woman blaming white people!

Where the hell does it end?!

So no... I wont be arguing in the causes of what is racism and what isn't. 
Regardless of race, you will face difficulties, injustices, hardship, sexism and racism. 
The best you can do is work hard, try your best and never give up. Your race, sex or religion will not change any of that.


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## Apple Ice (Apr 21, 2014)

Greimour, consider me well and truly spanked. I never even watched the films as I knew they would be dog turds. I suppose Tolkien just used them the best and therefore brought them to the forefront of popular imagination which is why he's credited with it all. fair play to him, though. I'm not knocking fantasy writers regardless, I think it's very hard to write fantasy regardless of how Tolkien-esque it is.


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## dale (Apr 21, 2014)

stormageddon said:


> Firstly, I'm a she. Secondly, I'm white, so obviously not prejudiced against myself. And thirdly, you're dismissing my opinions because I'm educated on the subject I'm talking about? Wow. Just wow xp
> 
> I didn't call rap a "black people thing", I pointed out that culture and therefore ethnicity has an influence on what music people listen to. I would like to say that I'm the farthest thing from indoctrinated possible, but I doubt you'll believe that. I would also like to ask why you _think_ I'm indoctrinated, and into what, precisely, but I'm not certain that you know yourself.
> 
> Lastly, the mythology of a country is a part of the culture of all of the people living in that country, not just the white ones. So while the inspiration for high fantasy has come from a predominantly white country, that does not make it what you might term a "white people thing". To say so is to deny people their own culture based on the colour of their skin, which I imagine you are against.


 many whites are prejudiced against whites nowadays. that's typical liberal white guilt syndrome. all my point really was...is that it's not some kind of racist conspiracy as to why high fantasy tends to incorporate what oversensitive people would deem as "racist/sexist stereotypes". it's read mainly by white males, and the main reason they read fantasy would be....well, i guess to "fantasize". to place themselves in the story they're reading. it's not some big bad sociological scheme to "hold the colored man down" or to insult small breasted, ugly chicks. it is what it is.


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## dale (Apr 21, 2014)

stormageddon said:


> I would like to say that I'm the farthest thing from indoctrinated possible, but I doubt you'll believe that.



actually, i apologize for that part of it. i don't know you well enough to be throwing an accusation like that out. sorry.


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## alanmt (Apr 21, 2014)

*Let's stay on topic, please.

The topic is "Things you'd like to see in fantasy."

The topic is not "Racism in North American culture or, more specifically, the fantasy genre."*


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## popsprocket (Apr 21, 2014)

Here's one for you - inspired by what I was reading last night.

Interpret this however you will:

Characters who don't take everything (including themselves) too seriously. It's not just a problem in fantasy, but I haven't found many characters in fantasy books that don't make everything feel like a life or death situation. Satire aside, some characters in a serious fantasy book who know how to joke and don't spout edgy lines about the world ending every other sentence - that's something I want to see.


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## T.S.Bowman (Apr 21, 2014)

popsprocket said:


> Here's one for you - inspired by what I was reading last night.
> 
> Interpret this however you will:
> 
> Characters who don't take everything (including themselves) too seriously. It's not just a problem in fantasy, but I haven't found many characters in fantasy books that don't make everything feel like a life or death situation. Satire aside, some characters in a serious fantasy book who know how to joke and don't spout edgy lines about the world ending every other sentence - that's something I want to see.



Maybe I _should_ ask you for a review then. Perhaps my use of dragons will be outweighed by my lack of seriousness. LOL

My MC is just a regular schlub who winds up in an unfamiliar place. He and his "inner voice" (pretty much just his conscience) take the situation seriously, but he doesn't really take _himself_ too seriously. If my MC were to spout a line about the world ending, he would be speaking in a sarcastic tone most likely. I left those lines to a couple of other characters. 

maybe that's why Institute Man said my novel would probably it well in the Pulp Fantasy realm.


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## Gyarachu (Apr 21, 2014)

Hmm...

An overweight, balding, middle-aged plumber whose belt is never quite tight enough suddenly finds himself thrust into a fantastical world of fairies, elves, and dragons, armed with nothing but his trusty spanner and a lead pipe. He meets a powerful and mysterious witch who has the power to send him home, but after hearing of the prospect of running water and a proper plumbing system, she agrees to free him only after he has revamped her entire palatial complex according to the promises of his profession. It's a race against time as he finds his sanity slowly deteriorating to the magically enhanced lead of this bizarre and enchanting new world.

^^ This is what I would like to see.


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## T.S.Bowman (Apr 21, 2014)

Would a dude who works at an advertising agency work?? LOL

I haven't given enough desription to say whether or not he's chubby and bald. Besides, that would be putting to much of myself into the character. LOL


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## Gavrushka (Apr 22, 2014)

popsprocket said:


> Here's one for you - inspired by what I was reading last night.
> 
> Interpret this however you will:
> 
> Characters who don't take everything (including themselves) too seriously. It's not just a problem in fantasy, but I haven't found many characters in fantasy books that don't make everything feel like a life or death situation. Satire aside, some characters in a serious fantasy book who know how to joke and don't spout edgy lines about the world ending every other sentence - that's something I want to see.



This is something that's always disturbed me about High Fantasy. The characters seem so filled with either bravery or dastardly ickyness that they have no room for many other facets to their personalities... They're all just far too serious, and that makes for some very monodimensional reading.

As a writer of fantasy, it is something I've tried to accommodate, but have been hamstrung by a lack of experience / ability. - When I read a book, I don't want to be forever gasping, or sobbing, but I want to laugh and chuckle too.


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## popsprocket (Apr 22, 2014)

Gavrushka said:


> As a writer of fantasy, it is something I've tried to accommodate, but have been hamstrung by a lack of experience / ability. - When I read a book, I don't want to be forever gasping, or sobbing, but I want to laugh and chuckle too.



The realistic problem with this is that fantasy books often include huge conflicts that _are_ life or death. Having characters that take everything seriously is pretty much the only way the plot can progress.

I suppose a happy medium is a character with ambition and out-the-wazoo self-confidence. Characters like that tend to find humour in other people simply because those other people are beneath them, and they take everything in stride and often turn it to their advantage. Not everything is doom and gloom with them. 

Either way, someone should write me a book with a character who isn't an ode to melancholy!


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## Gavrushka (Apr 22, 2014)

When I see soldiers on a battlefield who are, to a man (or woman), devoid of humour, I'd accept that.-  Humour is not only a coping mechanism, but is also a personality trait. - I've a small group of alpha-readers (one from this site) who'd be horrified if I sent a section without an appended belly-laugh. I appreciate it has to be at appropriate times, but the contrast between conflict and chuckles appears to make for a better read. (Or at least that's how I see it.)

David Eddings did try to use humour in his fantasy books, but it came across as a little forced... Yes, how I wish there was more fantasy that wasn't written under a cloud of perpetual inky darkness.


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## popsprocket (Apr 22, 2014)

It doesn't even have to be a case of a character making jokes. Something as small as one character teasing another or turning an interaction into a game - that's all that's really needed to set a lighter tone.


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## Caragula (Apr 22, 2014)

I want to see more ordinary stories in the new worlds.  Just because a world has been built from the ground up doesn't mean you have to tell stories about the rulers of the great empires and history changing events.

Some of the greatest stories of the real world come from the lives of ordinary people.

You may wonder why a fantasy writer might not then just tell a story in the real world, but look at sci-fi, which has a much richer heritage of creating imaginary futures, but also much more diversity when it comes to the stories told within them.

Why is it always a person being thrust to world-defining greatness?

When I sat back with the first draft of my own world map, I was quite taken with the thought that I could find some random point on a coastline, imagine a fishing village there, and imagine within that all kinds of stories of love and loss.  This was a thrilling idea to me, that alongside the stories I could tell of Kings and Caliphs, I could tell epic tales of a single family's journey across a drought-ridden desert, and that the fantasy world would allow me to 'amp it up' or make it peculiar, perhaps even more metaphorical, depending on the metaphysics that defined my idea of magic etc.


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## dale (Apr 22, 2014)

popsprocket said:


> It doesn't even have to be a case of a character making jokes. Something as small as one character teasing another or turning an interaction into a game - that's all that's really needed to set a lighter tone.



i thought jordan had some humor in his wheel of time series. matrim cauthon was funny, anyway. a lot of the "battle of the sexes" type thing in it
was humorous, as well.


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## Gavrushka (Apr 22, 2014)

Jordan did  humorous misunderstandings very well. - It added a lot of depth. - As if that series needed more!


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## popsprocket (Apr 22, 2014)

Gavrushka said:


> Jordan did  humorous misunderstandings very well.



Ugh, don't get me started. As much as I love it, I can see all the flaws of WoT. It would have been the length of a short story if the characters had only communicated with each other instead of telling lies, half-truths, and flat out refusing to share information based on principal only. He pissed me off? Not going to tell him how to save then world.


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## dale (Apr 22, 2014)

lol. i'm actually rereading it now. currently on "shadow rising".


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## T.S.Bowman (Apr 22, 2014)

popsprocket said:


> It doesn't even have to be a case of a character making jokes. Something as small as one character teasing another or turning an interaction into a game - that's all that's really needed to set a lighter tone.



This is exactly what I have going on in my book. When I started out, I didn't have a plan, but I did have the idea that I didn't want my work to be too heavy. I was hoping I could make it light enough to be accepted by the masses in general and in particular, readers who wouldn't normally pick up a Fantasy novel.

I really think the two of you would enjoy reading Side Worlds.


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## Morkonan (Apr 23, 2014)

gabriel lockhart said:


> ....What sort of stuff would you like to see in a fantasy story... it doesn't matter, sex, violence, types of landscape or character types etc...
> 
> hit me with your best ideas...:unconscious:



An attribution of author with my name so designated and printed on the hardback cover.... and a picture of my glorious mug on the inside sleeve, with a nice bio synopsis detailing my totally awesome qualifications as well as a short blurb from each of the women that have ever fallen in love with me, explaining why they were irretrievably drawn to such an outstanding man. Oh, and a short bit about how humble I am would be nice, too.




PS - What I want to see is a semi-return to some qualities of Heroic Fiction. I would like to see work that incorporated some of the storytelling style and characterizations of David Gemmel (RIP) as well as Joe Abercrombie, some Daniel Abraham and a bit of Brent Weeks, mixed in.

What I DO NOT want to see, ever again, is crappy YA Teensploitation garbage. Oh, and though I know many people love the series, I think _The Wheel of Time_ was probably a series that was DOA after the second book... Just my opinion, of course.  But, people kept reading it, so I guess I know nothing about what really sells.


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## Nickleby (Apr 23, 2014)

Is it spam to talk about my book? With three more rewrites and beta reading left to do, it should be ready by next year. It's a fantasy, but mainly it's a hard-boiled murder mystery, set in a dwarven community carved out of a desert mesa. No dragons, no armies, no wizards, no divine intervention. I set out to avoid cliches--and of course tell a story I would want to read. Watch for it: _Under World!_


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## Gavrushka (Apr 24, 2014)

Nickleby said:


> Is it spam to talk about my book? With three more rewrites and beta reading left to do, it should be ready by next year. It's a fantasy, but mainly it's a hard-boiled murder mystery, set in a dwarven community carved out of a desert mesa. No dragons, no armies, no wizards, no divine intervention. I set out to avoid clichés--and of course tell a story I would want to read. Watch for it: _Under World!_



No, I don't think it is Spam, but it is something that made me shudder a little bit...

...The three people who mentioned their fantasy story on this thread, are being inventive. They're introducing element they feel have been lacking from the genre. (I am one of those three, by the way.)

My shudder was wondering if people sought the cliché and innovation within a well established genre could equate to niche... Perhaps non-existent niche.

I hope I am wrong. I bloody well better be!


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## dale (Apr 24, 2014)

Gavrushka said:


> No, I don't think it is Spam, but it is something that made me shudder a little bit...
> 
> ...The three people who mentioned their fantasy story on this thread, are being inventive. They're introducing element they feel have been lacking from the genre. (I am one of those three, by the way.)
> 
> ...



someday? i'm actually gonna write a fantasy novel. it's gonna be about a smallish ingenuous people who conquer lands 
at a planetary level through peaceful means. they just erect gods and myths to lure the "bigger" peoples of every land to 
bow to their golden idols. they start massive wars, but the wars always end in furthering progress for their elvish ways
of maintaining a common thread of subtle slavery through happy thoughts and multiple TV channels. i was thinking of naming it
"The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion". sound cool?


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## Gavrushka (Apr 24, 2014)

It sounds like something I'd want to read. :thumbl:


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## Xander416 (Apr 24, 2014)

A world that isn't based on Medieval Europe/Asia? Maybe I'm boring, but I prefer the impenetrable shields of a Roman legion or a Greek phalanx to knights and Vikings.


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## Ixarku (Apr 24, 2014)

I'm not sure if I've ever stopped to think about what I like or don't like in fantasy, but I'll give it a shot.  This is stream of consciousness, so if I ramble, I apologize:

a) Familiar archetypes should be turned on their ear, or better yet, left as far behind as possible.  I'm completely over dragons, elves, orcs, dwarves, and everything else that has become a Dungeons & Dragons trope, and I'll be happy if I never again read another story containing those things.  I really don't need to read anymore stories centered on assassins or mages, thanks.

b) Gritty stories.  Gritty is sometimes really good.  The Black Company.  The Malazan.  The Guardians of the Flame.

c) Every fantasy story doesn't have to involve an overpowering Evil Force bent on wrecking the World of Man.  I've read more stories like this than I can count.  They start to lose impact after a while.  The authors that can do this well, however, will still get my money.  The authors that can do something different will definitely get my attention.

d) Give me an unusual setting.  I have several failed story ideas set in some fairly unusual places.  I'm going to go back to some of these and make them work.  But in the realm of published authors, I always think of Philip Jose Farmer's Riverworld and the World of Tiers.  Or Zelazny's Amber series.

e) Ooooh, oooh!  Powerful magical artifacts.  I always enjoy stories where somebody gets ahold of something really powerful and has to try not to accidentally blow himself up or his friends.  Saberhagen's Book of Swords series comes to mind.  I liked the Swords of Power so much, when I used to run D&D games in the '80s through the early 2000s, I created game stats for his Swords and threw them into my campaign.  And I invented 12 more of my own and threw them into the mix as well.  I ran many very fun, tense encounters where my players were using Swords of Power against enemies who were using the same.

f) Humor.  Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser.  Craig Shaw Gardner's The Wanderings of Wuntvor.  Hell, the Malazan was chock full of hilarious moments.  Humor is always welcome in a story that isn't weighted down with the world's impending destruction.  Characters who succeed despite their own idiocy can be a lot of fun.

g) Magic.  Duh.  It's not fantasy if it doesn't have some element of magic or super technology.  If magic is going to be a big focus of the story, then it had better be interesting or unusual, otherwise it's going to bore me.

h) Factions.  Robert Jordan and George RR Martin proved that it _is_ possible to have too many characters and too many factions.  Nonetheless, if you don't have a few different groups vying against each other, the fantasy world feels a bit dead.  But, no more Assassins Guilds or Thieves Guilds, please.


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## escorial (Apr 24, 2014)

id'e like to read a novel set in the future were it's a nice place and not keep finding storylines like 1984,we,brave new world..ect


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## T.S.Bowman (Apr 25, 2014)

Ixarku said:


> f) Humor.  Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser.  Craig Shaw Gardner's The Wanderings of Wuntvor.  Hell, the Malazan was chock full of hilarious moments.  Humor is always welcome in a story that isn't weighted down with the world's impending destruction.  Characters who succeed despite their own idiocy can be a lot of fun.



What about quite a bit of humor in a world that IS being threatened? lol

I know what you mean though. It seems that nearly every Fantasy I read when I was younger was so very _seriou__s_. It got annoying after a while.


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## Ixarku (Apr 25, 2014)

T.S.Bowman said:


> What about quite a bit of humor in a world that IS being threatened? lol
> 
> I know what you mean though. It seems that nearly every Fantasy I read when I was younger was so very _seriou__s_. It got annoying after a while.




Yeah, it all depends on what works.  I remember the Coldfire trilogy being _very_ dark.  I can't imagine something like that with humor.  Or Donaldson's Covenant books.  Just wouldn't work.  But Erikson did a great job balancing humor against the heavier stuff in The Malazan.  I will always remember the Malazan marines and their craziness.  And Bugg and Tehol.  Those guys were a riot.


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