# There are only so many tunes in the world: random similarity and story co-evolution



## Outiboros (Dec 16, 2013)

We've all had it. You think you've got something original and it turns out not to be - the character's been done, Stephen King has already written the book, three bestsellers use the exact same name, or what you thought was a clever title actually means something very nasty in an obscure British accent. I'm not one to say that all creativity is dead. I don't agree with people saying that all writers do these days is recycle the stories of others.

Still, when this happens - what do you do?


Case in point: I'm writing a science fiction story - interstellar colonies included, one of which is called New Kashmir. Today I'm browsing Wikipedia and stumble upon the page for the character Mal Reynolds from Firefly, and read the following:

"...the show mentions three such battles, including the Battle of Du-Khang in 2510 (featured in "The Message") and a long winter campaign in New Kashmir (as told by Zoe in "War Stories") where he commanded a platoon."

I've never even watched Firefly!


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## Jeko (Dec 16, 2013)

> Still, when this happens - what do you do?



Write.

Seriously, there is nothing new under the sun. The sooner you realise that, the sooner you stop worrying about whether your work sounds like something else. Else you're like a musician that doesn't understand that Bach did _everything. 
_
As long as you aren't directly and consciously imitating from another work, your story will stand on its own.


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## Gavrushka (Dec 16, 2013)

If we look hard enough, we will always be able to find some piece of literature that resembles our own when, in reality, it does not. - Similar themes and similar plots do not make for comparable reads. - I am of the mind it is the author that grasps the story and makes it his, and that your words will be a unique work which could be categorised alongside similar kinds of work, but there the similarity ends.

There are those that go out of their way to create literary works that resemble others, but there are other successful authors who happen to write a book that is similar to an existing one... I thought Terry Brooks Sword of Shanara was The Lord of the Rings without the Ring.

Your work will be your own, unless you make the conscious effort to copy another's.


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## Schrody (Dec 16, 2013)

Been there, done that. Some folks told me that my fantasy story resembles Twilight. I said thank you, and goodbye, with bitterness in my voice. He he. But if we'll be serious for a moment, I don't think you have to worry. Everything is already written, and isn't. Just go with the story, and make it your own.


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## escorial (Dec 16, 2013)

everyone does it


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## Foxee (Dec 16, 2013)

Outiboros said:


> We've all had it. You think you've got something original and it turns out not to be...Case in point: I'm writing a science fiction story - interstellar colonies included, one of which is called New Kashmir. Today I'm browsing Wikipedia and stumble upon the page for the character Mal Reynolds from Firefly, and read the following:
> 
> "...the show mentions three such battles, including the Battle of Du-Khang in 2510 (featured in "The Message") and a long winter campaign in New Kashmir (as told by Zoe in "War Stories") where he commanded a platoon."
> 
> I've never even watched Firefly!


Hehe, as soon as you said "New Kashmir" I knew ex actly what was coming next. BTW, watch Firefly, it's well worth it.

I've run into "there is nothing new under the sun" in every creative field that I've dabbled in, studied, or simply hauled through with wild abandon. When I was told with grim satisfaction in art school that I couldn't create anything new I had to decide whether to believe it. After a while I decided not to care because I know I'll be creating something that I'm into, I'm not out to copy anyone else.

Anyway, that would be my answer. Even if this is true, caring about it will only mess you up. Do what you like to do, hone your talent, don't set out to be anyone else and the things you create will elicit a "WOW!" even if some snarky jerk in the back of the room can point out that there are things like it. Who cares? It's yours!

This might make you feel better...or worse, not sure:
[video=youtube_share;JdxkVQy7QLM]http://youtu.be/JdxkVQy7QLM[/video]


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## Morkonan (Dec 16, 2013)

Outiboros said:


> We've all had it. You think you've got something original and it turns out not to be - the character's been done, Stephen King has already written the book, three bestsellers use the exact same name, or what you thought was a clever title actually means something very nasty in an obscure British accent. I'm not one to say that all creativity is dead. I don't agree with people saying that all writers do these days is recycle the stories of others.
> 
> Still, when this happens - what do you do?...



Everything has already been written.

You're a writer, you know this. Well, you should know it, at any rate. So, if everything has already been written, why write at all? 

...

You know the answer, right? You feel it, instinctively, because you're a writer and while every story has others that are similar to it, yours hasn't been told yet. The story that you've come up with is different, the characters are different or the setting is unique or the obstacles in the protagonist's path are different or you write with a different perspective and *your* "Rosencrantz and Gildenstern" knockoff will be the best, ever!

Everything has already been written, but it wasn't written by you and it doesn't have your uniqueness as a part of it. That's why you write. That's why you still have stories to tell.


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## tabasco5 (Dec 16, 2013)

And to expand upon the point I will follow Foxee's lead...



[video=youtube;yflWG-e38OU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yflWG-e38OU[/video]


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## Morkonan (Dec 16, 2013)

fenbields5 said:


> And to expand upon the point I will follow Foxee's lead...



Nicely done.


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## Foxee (Dec 16, 2013)

Oooh I like that video, too! I have a weakness for guitarists.


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## Gargh (Dec 16, 2013)

And even when you think you've absolutely rocked something and produced the most original sound ever, someone else can still come along and rock it better...

[video=youtube;-vyYyw08ZU8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vyYyw08ZU8[/video]

C'est la vie. Do what you are happy with.


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## FleshEater (Dec 16, 2013)

All I have to say is that if Quentin Tarantino and The Hunger Games can pretty much plagiarize anything Asian and get away with it, anyone can do it.

Seriously.

Tarantino has stolen screen shots directly from Asian films. And I can guarantee you he was fully aware of it. Mind you, his stories are better, so most don't scoff. But still.

The Hunger Games took so many elements from Battle Royale it isn't funny. They're not as good in my opinion, and I believe that's why the hammer is coming down so hard from BR fans. The only good thing about that is that Battle Royale FINALLY got an official NTSC release. The PAL releases before were pretty awful. So, thank you THG. 

Just for fun, watch Battle Royale and then The Hunger Games, back to back. You'll feel better afterwards.

P.S. Sure, THG might have greater character development, but had the author of BR been interested in a trilogy, his would have probably looked the same.


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## Foxee (Dec 16, 2013)

And this is where I'd chime in to thank FleshEater for illustrating my point. Doesn't matter what you do, someone will point out that it's 'just like' or even 'stolen' from something else.

I never heard of Battle Royale and it doesn't bug me at all that THG is similar. Love THG, don't need to see what it's similar to in order to compare. So, once again, run with your ideas and have fun with it. Let the chips fall where they may.


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## FleshEater (Dec 16, 2013)

Foxee said:


> And this is where I'd chime in to thank FleshEater for illustrating my point. Doesn't matter what you do, someone will point out that it's 'just like' or even 'stolen' from something else.
> 
> I never heard of Battle Royale and it doesn't bug me at all that THG is similar. Love THG, don't need to see what it's similar to in order to compare. So, once again, run with your ideas and have fun with it. Let the chips fall where they may.



If something I wrote was as similar to the BR and THG situation, there'd be no way I'd finish it. I mean, the OP was comparing science fiction titles. It wasn't that he had the same exact plot. That's stretching it. 

It's bad when an author gets word about a novel that's a lot like their own and has to ask their agent if they should be concerned with it. Uh, yes, if you're receiving feedback that your novel looks identical to a story already published, I'd definitely check it out. That's not saying two people have never had two like-minded ideas. But seriously, you'd think one would be like, Eh, I can think of something better.

However, as ridiculous as I think it is, miraculously the Japanese author said it was okay.


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## FleshEater (Dec 16, 2013)

Foxee, you and I are in the same boat here. You love THG, and BR is on my top five greatest films of all time list...in fact, it's a strong runner for my favorite film ever.

The American trailer is a WF safe trailer...I think. If it isn't, can a mod move my post only to the Tavern?

[video=youtube_share;N0p1t-dC7Ko]http://youtu.be/N0p1t-dC7Ko[/video]


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## Leyline (Dec 17, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> All I have to say is that if Quentin Tarantino and The Hunger Games can pretty much plagiarize anything Asian and get away with it, anyone can do it.
> 
> Seriously.
> 
> Tarantino has stolen screen shots directly from Asian films. And I can guarantee you he was fully aware of it. Mind you, his stories are better, so most don't scoff. But still.



The thing is, though, he admits that freely, praises the Asian films and has, in many cases, paid to get them distribution in North America. There's a reason that when he made KILL BILL he had every single HK legend chomping at the bit to work with him. Much of that cinema was fairly unknown in the US until Tarantino started shouting their praises to the ceiling.


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## Leyline (Dec 17, 2013)

But seriously, people are surprised that slapping 'New' in front of an actually existing place name might not have been done at least once before? Really?

BTW, _Firefly_ wasn't original with the oh-so-imaginative 'New Kashmir' -- I saw that in a Gordon Dickinson story that was published in the 50's.


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## FleshEater (Dec 17, 2013)

Leyline said:


> The thing is, though, he admits that freely, praises the Asian films and has, in many cases, paid to get them distribution in North America. There's a reason that when he made KILL BILL he had every single HK legend chomping at the bit to work with him. Much of that cinema was fairly unknown in the US until Tarantino started shouting their praises to the ceiling.



Yes, Tarantino freely admits it, but it's still something that boggles my mind. Of course, his is fairly innocent. He loves film so much that for him it's more about paying homage.


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## Olly Buckle (Dec 17, 2013)

If you are writing SF always bring Jerry Cornelius into it, then you have dealt with that aspect.


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## Outiboros (Dec 17, 2013)

Leyline said:


> But seriously, people are surprised that slapping 'New' in front of an actually existing place name might not have been done at least once before? Really?


Yes. It's what the thread's title alludes to. There's a set number of tunes, but the number is so great that two tunes being identical due to simple random chance is very small. Slapping 'New' in front of an actually existing place name is almost as old as place names themselves - that's why I did it - and I am surprised the same name has not only already been used in a major production but that it was one I came across while writing the story, and not just used but used to name the exact same entity - a planetary colony in a science fiction story.



Morkonan said:


> Everything has already been written.
> 
> You're a writer, you know this. Well, you should know it, at any rate. So, if everything has already been written, why write at all?
> 
> Everything has already been written, but it wasn't written by you and it doesn't have your uniqueness as a part of it. That's why you write. That's why you still have stories to tell.


I'm quite sick of this recycled piece of narcissistic melancholy, I really am. I thought I said that in the OP. Saying that I know it's true doesn't change that fact that I don't.


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## David Gordon Burke (Dec 17, 2013)

I was going to participate in this thread but....then I saw that Gypsy Kings video and had to regurgitate. I'm back now. 
1. Bach did not find every musical combination possible. Nonsense. It took the slaves of the south and the poor of the Caribbean and Latin countries to do that - (Plus Africa, Asia etc. - Bach Schmack)
2. If one were to start off with the 'it's all been done before' attitude, then what's the point? Seems to me that you'd only need about 5 books - Lord of the Rings (no need for any other fantasy after that one) Count of Monte Cristo (adventure / revenge covered there) Pride and Prejudice (romance / social classes etc.) etc. 
3. Although the story (plot) is the central / principal drawing point to a GREAT story, the majority of really memorable books go from mediocre to excellent not due to their plot twists but rather because of the prose, characters and character development and a thousand other factors. Case in point - Cormac McCarthy's 'All the Pretty Horses.' I just watched the movie again for the umpteenth time and have started to read the Border Trilogy again. 

ATPH is as redundant and derivative a plot as one could possibly find, particularly for a Mexico / Texas border story.
Young boy leaves Texas and goes down to Mexico (OK, tell me you DON'T know what is going to happen next)
Gets job on ranch.
Fools around with Ranch boss' daughter
Ends up in Jail
Gets out
Gets revenge 
Comes home.

Oh, please. 
But all this aside, it's one of the best books I've read. The prose jumps off the page. I literally (and I am not kidding here) had olfactory hallucinations while reading this book. It so captured the essence of Mexico (I read it at home in Canada) that I thought I was smelling cilantro and onion from a corner taco stand mixed with red dust. 

So originallity? Not an issue. 

Just Write.

David Gordon Burke
PS. On the topic of VOMITER SONGS (songs so overplayed that they are likely to provoke vomit if you hear them once more) The absolute reigning champ is Hotel California. 
Still, this version rocks.

[video=youtube;67XdPLZzsHk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67XdPLZzsHk[/video]


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## Jeko (Dec 17, 2013)

> 1. Bach did not find every musical combination possible. Nonsense. It took the slaves of the south and the poor of the Caribbean and Latin countries to do that - (Plus Africa, Asia etc. - Bach Schmack)



I was hyperbolizing.



> 2. If one were to start off with the 'it's all been done before' attitude, then what's the point?



Your story is being done _right now_. And you are in control of it and can draw from whatever you want to, to grow it and fulfill its potential.



> I'm quite sick of this recycled piece of narcissistic melancholy, I really am. I thought I said that in the OP. Saying that I know it's true doesn't change that fact that I don't.



Then you need to learn: there is nothing new. The further you get into the basic fundamentals of storytelling, the more it'll become clear. And the more you'll realise that it's a very, very, very, very good thing.


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## David Gordon Burke (Dec 17, 2013)

Cadence said:


> I was hyperbolizing.



I figured that....but you would be amazed at how many people truly believe these myths about Bach and Beethoven and their ilk.  

David Gordon Burke


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## Jeko (Dec 17, 2013)

> I figured that....but you would be amazed at how many people truly believe these myths about Bach and Beethoven and their ilk.



They still did a huge amount, and if you look at there music closely, they are responsible for a majority of what we have today.

[/off topic]


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## FleshEater (Dec 17, 2013)

Cadence said:


> Then you need to learn: there is nothing new.



See, I try to convince myself of that, and then I experience something that takes a well versed plot and twists it so well that it feels new. And technically, aside from the major plot point, it is very new, and very refreshing. 

For instance; let's consider vampires. 

Bram Stoker set the fundamentals (now, I'm only discussing film here, because I've never read a vampire novel aside from I Am Legend...which also falls into this category (the book, not the movie) for vampires, and they've been recreated a million times in his wake. However, every now and then someone breaks the mold, breathes new life into the monsters, and makes them feel new again. 

The vampire stories that come to mind that feel very new because of underlying plot elements would be: Martin, Tombs of the Blind Dead, The Descent (yes, I'm counting this one), Livide, and more recently Let the Right One In (though it almost falls in line with Romero's Martin). 

They all have vampire-like creatures, but because they all break the mold, none of them feel rehashed. 

I don't know, maybe I'm just being hopeful.


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## Jeko (Dec 18, 2013)

> See, I try to convince myself of that, and then I experience something that takes a well versed plot and twists it so well that it feels new.



That's the illusion of storytelling - our aim is often to make what isn't new seem very new, so as to 'breathe life' back into it in the modern day. That's why famous films are remade, superheroes are rebooted, etc.

The way I see it, by understanding how nothing is new, you end up being able to pull of the illusion of newness better. But if you think there are things that are completely 'new', then you're walking into uncharted territory and there's little or nothing to help you with that 'new' thing you're doing.

But I'm a structuralist at heart; this view may come from that.


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## Gavrushka (Dec 18, 2013)

You know, this is one of those threads where I've moved from enlightenment, through doubt and ended up mired in confusion.

I hear two sides debating the newness of something, and I think the debate is more a semantic one over what new actually means. - Everything we write is unique, and that makes it new in my estimation, BUT if you're talking a new genre, or a plot that does not at least share some elements with other books, then of course it is not unique in concept... BUT it is still a unique story.

I am sure a chef doesn't consider a recipe as a copy of another's just because he also uses flour, eggs and water in it. - It's about the chef, and what he does with the ingredients.

SO, unless you're a literal plagiarist, your story is formed by you, but perhaps influenced by others.


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## CorporateTool (Dec 18, 2013)

I think this is a subject many people get too hung up on. Ultimately most, if any, ideas are not going to be wholly original. You can choose to obsess over trying to be completely original, or simply write the stories you want to read. The 2nd  option strikes me as far less headache inducing.


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## Foxee (Dec 18, 2013)

Gavrushka said:


> You know, this is one of those threads where I've moved from enlightenment, through doubt and ended up mired in confusion.



Off topic: We can do that with anything!


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## Schrody (Dec 18, 2013)

I'll post my "problem" (more like dilemma) here, since I don't want to open a new thread just because of it. It has some similarities with this topic.

So, I had a thought about this story, it would be crime/thriller, set in the time of WWII, some espionage, secret agents... you get the idea. It would be based on real people (with different names), and real events, with some fiction. If you really want to know, it would be about agents of SOE (Secret Operations Executive), and SIS (Secret Intelligence Service, also known as MI6), but bottom line is, I don't know should I write it. I mean, there are many books about WWII, and that's not what's bugging me, it's more like inner questions- would readers like it, would anyone even wanted to read that. I didn't find any novel about those agents, only some movies and series.


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## David Gordon Burke (Dec 18, 2013)

Art, culture and real life tend to run in cycles. While bad stuff is happening, we tend to see a lot of unrealistic literature and film. Remember how Arnold pulled his 'Collateral Damage' movie in the 9/11 afternath. And that was Columbian Drug Lord terrorists. Not reallly related.

Post 9/11 we got the Paranormal craze. Vamps, Werewolves etc. Why? Cause no one wanted to watch or read about the real horrors that might be hidding under your bed. (Can't understand how or why 24 was able to get us back to extremist middle eastern terrorism so quickly....they kind of sneaked it up on us)

My point is that Germany / Nazis / WWII / Spies and whatnot are not in fashion. Not that that should stop you at all if you have a good story to tell. The bit I didn't get was 'using real people but changing their names.' Are we talking about friends and family or historical figures? 

Seems to me that lots of writers put historical figures into fictional situations all the time. (I for one love to add real people to my stories, especially when I can 'almost' slander them and get away with it. The truth is a defense against slander. 

I say write it. Whether anyone would want to read a story like that is a question of marketing. That is each writer's personal choice - if we all just want to write what is popular .... Well, we can sum up what is selling with 7 letters YAPR & XXX. 

David Gordon Burke


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## InkwellMachine (Dec 18, 2013)

Wow. Look at how hasty we are. You really think _everything's _been written? That's as good as saying that we'll never find a new species (which research indicates is incredibly unlikely), because that would be something new to write about--something to spark brand new ideas.

Think about the origins for all of the famous "first time" stories. Bram Stoker's _Dracula_ was based on prince Vladislav Basarab of Wallachia. Tolkien readily admitted that much of his content was influenced by existing religion, philology, mythology, etc. This is how we learn. This is where our imagination comes from. We don't just reach into the *Æ*ther and pull new ideas from the void. We observe and we repeat. What else is there to do?

Evolution is probably the most accurate term for this process. Someone is inspired by something, writes about it, and passes their take on that idea on to some reader. Perhaps that reader is inspired and chooses to write their own take on the previous writer's take on the thing that inspired _them_. This telephone game goes on until the original muse is only a shadow cast by the new story. 

I feel you guys are looking at Darwin's finches and saying "that's not new--it's the same bird with a different beak." Velociraptors didn't grow feathers and learn to fly over the space of a week; don't expect to do that with whatever concepts you're drawing your inspiration from. Accept that micro-evolution comes first. Make your alterations, your copies, and feel no shame--it's the best we can do.


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## Schrody (Dec 18, 2013)

David Gordon Burke said:


> My point is that Germany / Nazis / WWII / Spies and whatnot are not in fashion. Not that that should stop you at all if you have a good story to tell. The bit I didn't get was 'using real people but changing their names.' Are we talking about friends and family or historical figures?



Historical figures, real agents of SOA and SIS, but I would like to avoid lawsuits because I didn't ask for permission for using their names...



David Gordon Burke said:


> I say write it. Whether anyone would want to read a story like that is a question of marketing. That is each writer's personal choice - if we all just want to write what is popular .... Well, we can sum up what is selling with 7 letters YAPR & XXX.
> 
> David Gordon Burke



Well, I wouldn't say I write "popular" literature, it's just... I never did this before, writing about real people, and don't have any experience in writing about WWII, that's why I need to put some fiction in it. Question is, would it "sell"?


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## Outiboros (Dec 18, 2013)

Cadence said:


> Then you need to learn: there is nothing new. The further you get into the basic fundamentals of storytelling, the more it'll become clear. And the more you'll realise that it's a very, very, very, very good thing.


Sure, the basic fundamentals have all been done - that's what they're basic fundamentals for. But they're an underlying foundation - just because they're both made up of the same subatomic particles doesn't make a fridge and Betelgeuse repetitions of each other.


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## FleshEater (Dec 18, 2013)

Schrody said:


> I'll post my "problem" (more like dilemma) here, since I don't want to open a new thread just because of it. It has some similarities with this topic.
> 
> So, I had a thought about this story, it would be crime/thriller, set in the time of WWII, some espionage, secret agents... you get the idea. It would be based on real people (with different names), and real events, with some fiction. If you really want to know, it would be about agents of SOE (Secret Operations Executive), and SIS (Secret Intelligence Service, also known as MI6), but bottom line is, I don't know should I write it. I mean, there are many books about WWII, and that's not what's bugging me, it's more like inner questions- would readers like it, would anyone even wanted to read that. I didn't find any novel about those agents, only some movies and series.




You should read Stieg Larsson's Trilogy. The last book is all about SIS, though in modern day operations.


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## FleshEater (Dec 18, 2013)

Schrody said:


> Historical figures, real agents of SOA and SIS, but I would like to avoid lawsuits because I didn't ask for permission for using their names...
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I wouldn't say I write "popular" literature, it's just... I never did this before, writing about real people, and don't have any experience in writing about WWII, that's why I need to put some fiction in it. Question is, would it "sell"?



Anything can sell. It just depends on whether or not you can write it well enough to sell it. And by using that terminology I'm guessing your thinking big?


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## spartan928 (Dec 18, 2013)

One of the drawbacks of having such a vast amount of information literally at our fingertips is the tendency to over-research. That sounds counter-intuitive so let me explain per the OP. You get an idea; Google, Google, Google. Before a word is jotted down, the writer has developed a prejudice against their own work because of the desire to not be derivative. But as many have commented, the deeper one digs, the more difficult it becomes to not find SOME level of derivation from other work. Names, places, plots, etc. It never ends. Point being, it's so incredibly easy to talk yourself out of exploring ideas when the world of writing at large feels so papered over with every possible permutation of plots, characters and ideas. Truly, that is a very real challenge that I find difficult to overlook also. So it comes down to just running with it. There are over 171,000 words in the English language. If we're talking permutations, consider that there are nearly an infinite number of possible opening sentences you could write before you plop down the first period in your story.


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## Schrody (Dec 18, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> You should read Stieg Larsson's Trilogy. The last book is all about SIS, though in modern day operations.



Thanks for the recommendation. 



FleshEater said:


> Anything can sell. It just depends on whether or not you can write it well enough to sell it. And by using that terminology I'm guessing your thinking big?



I don't know will I fulfill my and other's expectations, but there's only one way to find out. I'm not really thinking big, but every writer wants to be successful. I'm not thinking millions, or bestseller, it would be just nice to know readers love your work.


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## Jeko (Dec 19, 2013)

> just because they're both made up of the same subatomic particles doesn't make a fridge and Betelgeuse repetitions of each other.



But they are repetitions of their foundations; hence they are tied by the same principles of composition. Hence one is just a re-arrangement of the other. The components do not vary, so things are made to look 'new', while they really aren't.


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## David Gordon Burke (Dec 19, 2013)

InkwellMachine said:


> This telephone game goes on until the original muse is only a shadow cast by the new story.



Hmmmm.  In my experience it often works the other way.  If the original muse was so influential that it inspired a ream of copies / inspired bys etc. eventually I end up nostalgic for the original work after so many watered down carbon copies.  
Davinci Code inspired a ton of dreck 'secret society - hidden clues in art / literature etc.' mysteries.
Lonesome Dove inspired a plethora of Westerns - they even cloned the cover styling.
Dracula .... obviously inspired the 'Poodles with Fangs' versions of the Vampire story that are so popular today.  
Sherlock Holmes, Miss Marples and Hercule Poirot novels gave birth to a zillion half baked Detective novels.  
Tom Clancy inspired the modern espionage / military / political thriller.  

Hell, Dan Brown even went to far as to write a 'Dante's Inferno' novel (Infierno...total waste of time) which someone had already done (The Dante Club) in the very style of Davinci Code - So the original writer is being inspired by the people who are copying his work.  Hence my theory that Popular Fiction, like Pop music, is like a snake eating its own tail.  (Sting citation)  

Aside from Dan Brown, in all of these cases and many more, I'd rather dig out the classics / originals and re-read them than wade through the literary dung of Pop Fiction.  

Maybe the answer is to write one genre while reading another.  Ignore what came before.  

David Gordon Burke


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