# Twilight - should I keep reading??



## Jewells

Hey guys I just started the first Twilight book, 100 pages in, and I'm having a hard time seeing the appeal.  It just seems like poorly written drivel to me.  Am I missing something???  I've had several well educated professional friends (in their mid to late 20s) coerce me into starting the series but I don't think I can go on.  I'm surprised they like it - it seems very immature and poorly constructed.  If I hate the first 100 pages is it likely that I will hate the next 100?  Or does it somehow get better??  I don't know it just seems like such crap that I am having a hard time understanding how it ever got published...  My options are continue reading this or start on Jane Eyre.  Thanks for the help


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## Tatiiii

Just because lots of people liked it (like myself) doesn't mean like you should like it too. It's a matter of taste. I guess, if you don't like it now then you won't like the rest. Because me, I started reading it and was hooked since the beginning. 
I've seen other people dislike the way the book is written, but personally I like the way it's written, also because while I read it I was more aware of the actual story rather than format, or the way it was written, I don't have any problems with it. 
I think you should continue reading it if you are a sucker for love stories, happily ever after... blah blah. ;p


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## SparkyLT

It might get a little better, but if you're hating it already, just put it down. I got the first three books for last Christmas, and I've reread them once; they're not the best books, but to me they were easy to read - good if you're not looking for any heavy reading or anything.

Really though, if you don't like it yet, you probably won't at all.


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## mandax

I read all four to see what the appeal was.  It gets better in a sense--some sort of plot begins to develop.  However, Edward and Bella's dynamic never gets realistic or interesting.  The books are very poorly written, though there is slight improvement with each book as if she's learning to write as she goes along.  It probably isn't worth the time.  It was mildly entertaining and worth it if you want your brain to take a thinking break.


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## WriterDude

You could watch the movie and see if you like that? And there's a movie of Jane Eyre too. I kinda liked it.


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## SparkyLT

WriterDude said:


> You could watch the movie and see if you like that? And there's a movie of Jane Eyre too. I kinda liked it.


Actually, I've heard that the Twilight movie sucks, so it probably wouldn't be an accurate way to judge the books.


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## WriterDude

Yeah, the movie is better. :mrgreen:


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## SparkyLT

WriterDude said:


> Yeah, the movie is better. :mrgreen:


Wow, maybe I should see if after all :???:


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## mandax

No, the movie sucks.  It's about equally as bad as the book, though a lot could have been done in the movie to salvage the good parts.  Unfortunately, that "lot" wasn't done.

EDIT:  Although, Robert Pattinson makes every movie a little better.  I heard, however, that even he had some negative things to say about the books!


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## SparkyLT

I believe he hated the shiny vampire part.

EDIT: Or, my bad, SPARKLY vampire part. Sparkly vampire...*wanders of into a corner, muttering obscenities*

And while we're at it...


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## WriterDude

Actually, I haven't read the book or seen the movie. If I wanted vampires, I'll go read about Lestat again. Which reminds me. I love those books, so how come I have only read the first and seen the two movies? I have practically the whole series and the Mayfair Chronicles... 

Vamps are supposed to be scary, not sparkly, shiny, romantic or any of that crap. You don't see any books about how to house train your pet werewolf, do you? :razz:


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## SparkyLT

Vampires can be a _little_ romantic, but scary is the main thing. My vampires are scary (at  least, I hope so).

I would like very much to see a How To House Train Your Pet Werewolf guide. That would be hilarious


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## mandax

He also thinks that Stephanie Meyer is "mad" and he thinks that she probably wrote the part of Bella as if it were herself.  I totally believe that theory.


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## SparkyLT

Perhaps she did. I've heard that her other book, _The Host_, is much better, though, so I'm not one to criticize the author. Just the book.

It's too early in the morning. I think I misspelled criticize, bu I have no idea how to do it better.


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## mandax

Hahaha, you've got "criticize" right.  =P  I've also heard that _The Host_ is better, but I'm skeptical.  I really don't like Meyer's writing style at all (or really, lackthereof).  Maybe I'll give it a shot when I need to give my brain another break.  But Harry Potter generally fills that void in a much more successful and entertaining way.


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## SparkyLT

Mmm. Agreed. With both serieses, though, I was left wondering... What? What's the hype about? I've read much better books, and they go unknown...


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## Tatiiii

I started reading the host, and it IS different from Twilight. And well yes, I would have to say it should be more appealing for some than the twilight series. I never finished reading it though...


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## WriterDude

Someone mentioned Harry Potter? 

YouTube - the internet is for porn (harry potter)

:mrgreen:


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## SparkyLT

You're only a little bit twisted, Writerdude :-D


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## WriterDude

Aaaaww... only a little bit? I'm disappointed... :mrgreen:


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## mandax

LOL at the HP video.  I plan to see Avenue Q soon.   I must see the play that beat out Wicked for Best New Musical.

But Sparky, I've had the same thoughts.  For Harry Potter, I think people enjoy being immersed in a whole new, fantastic world.  It's an easy escape from lame life.  Twilight, however, created a fan base because of the men.  Edward is portrayed as perfect (though I'd argue that he definitely isn't), and women obsess over wanting a guy like Edward or Jacob for their own.


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## SparkyLT

But there are still much better books that offer an escape from life! Harry Potter was ok; I liked it more when I was younger and didn't have so much to compare it against. There are better ones out there, but it's not bad.

Twilight, though...meh. I didn't mind Jacob. I prefered him over Edward, anyway; he wasn't _quite_ so flat. The only character I really liked was Jasper. He had a little of the horrendous side of vampires in him, or at least in his past. The others were so...goody-goody.


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## mandax

SparkyLT said:


> But there are still much better books that offer an escape from life! Harry Potter was ok; I liked it more when I was younger and didn't have so much to compare it against. There are better ones out there, but it's not bad.
> 
> Twilight, though...meh. I didn't mind Jacob. I prefered him over Edward, anyway; he wasn't _quite_ so flat. The only character I really liked was Jasper. He had a little of the horrendous side of vampires in him, or at least in his past. The others were so...goody-goody.



You're right...there are better books.  But Harry Potter is easy to read, so for a lot of children, at least, the HP series is the first batch of books they actually enjoy (as was in my case).  I didn't even like to read until I read those books.  The whole idea of living in a world of magic just appeals to people, and though there are tons of fantasy novels about witches and wizards, the fact that Harry Potter was entertaining as well as easy to read is what gave it the shove into the spotlight, I think.

The Edward/Bella relationship wouldn't be SO bad if...

1.) There was a reason for their love other than each other's beauty/smell.
2.) He wasn't so creepy.
3.) He didn't control what Bella did and did not do.

But I guess that's asking for too much.  =P


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## SparkyLT

1.) Oh, but they were so obviously MADE for each other...at least that's what we're told.

2.) Agreed. He is creepy.

3.) Also creepy. But then, maybe she's the kind of girl who needs to be controlled so she doesn't hurt herself? I don't know.


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## C.Gholy

Stephanie Meyer's fantasies? Although, it makes me wonder what a twilight parody would be?


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## silverfoxgirl

SparkyLT said:


> Twilight, though...meh. I didn't mind Jacob. I prefered him over Edward, anyway; he wasn't _quite_ so flat. The only character I really liked was Jasper. He had a little of the horrendous side of vampires in him, or at least in his past. The others were so...goody-goody.


I totally agree. The whole book was goody-goody. Like, "We're vampires. Let's go eat a moose and practice abstinence!" Jasper and Jacob and a few very minor characters were the only interesting ones to me.

Edward Cullen is beyond creepy. He crawls into her room at night, drinks her tears and says that he wants to eat her on a regular basis. He also falls in love with her because she smells like flowers. And he watches her sleep. And follows her around in his car when she goes out with her friends.
Bella is a shallow idiot. She risks her life, friends, family and agrees to marry him, and turn into a vampire all because he has pretty eyes. And he's hot. And his eyes are pretty. She even admits that the only reason she is going to marry him is so she can have sex with him.


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## Jewells

Thanks a lot guys, this actually helps me a lot!  I really wasn't sure if I should hang in there or not - I wasn't sure if it was going to get better (for me)..  I think I am going to give up.  I am really having a problem with her writing style, and the character's "voice".  I don't think that these are things I am going to be able to get past. 

Anyways I decided to start another book instead of Jane Eyre - The Memory Keeper's Daughter.  Has anyone read that?  I'm wondering if it's good too - I haven't heard anything about it other than it's been a bestseller...

Thanks for your help guys


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## tepelus

I got Twilight for Christmas and have read a lot of comments about it. I'm going to read it only because I am curious to see how crappy the writing and so forth is. I'm a curious creature. Plus, I'd like to draw my own opinions of the book instead of reading about others.


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## meddude

Ive read the book. It took a while for me to get through though. the reason being it bored me to death. I always try to make sure i finish any book i start - so i forced myself to finish 'twilight'. 

This book is for teenagers or 'romantics'- i use that word very loosely.

It also endeavors to insult those of us who enjoy a good vampire book or horror book.

If you want to read a good vamp book with a touch of romance read 'the last vampire' by C. Pike. Otherwise try Anne Rice or Bram Stoker.


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## Brendan M

Timid vampires work.  They did in Supernatural, and they did in Twilight.  I actually liked it.  No, I'm not a crazed fangirl - I'm just a guy who had heard it was good, and went to see it.  I thought it was good too.

Don't get me wrong though, the sparkly vampire part made me cringe.


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## ejket

There is such a love/hate thing going on with the _Twilight_ books.  I read Rowling's and Pullman's books and I was entertained by them, but there's no chance I'd ever read _Twilight_.  Sparkling, passive aggressive vampires?  Jailbait Mary Sues getting rough sex and then the fetuses chewed out of their womb?  It truly sounds mental.


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## hermitcrab

Stephen King rubbishes Twilight author Stephenie Meyer | Books | guardian.co.uk

nuff' said.

The only vampire novel for teens I've ever read is The Thief of Always by Clive Barker.  Now that's a good read.


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## Ghost.X

Just watched the movie. It was entertaining as far as entertainment goes but well...that's as far as it goes. It didn't actually have any REAL depth to it and it was flat, but it still tasted good like a piece of hard candy. I'm gonna go have some rich gourmet food now .


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## xxxcyanide

I've read Twilight and I personally dont care for it. I felt it was poorly done but I liked the idea. I thought that if the movie got so much attention that it did I should read it because it must be good. I personally dont think it was right that she got a huge movie made from her books when other like Laurall K Hamilton have been around for ages and she is just now talking about a movie.


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## caelum

fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigaaaaaroooooooooooooooooooooooo


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## Robosquad

I have read one paragraph of _Twilight_. That paragraph contained the sentence "Hunting vampires should be fun." It wasn't dialogue or anything. It was right there mixed in with the narrative.

No book should _ever_ contain that sentence and ask people to respect it. Ignoring the fact that the series consists solely of the cliched fantasies of an obese preteen, it is also fucking _terrible_ writing. And that's enough of a reason not to read it as any.


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## lilacstarflower

to the OP: read Jayne Eyre - it's a classic for a reason


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## Chirios

To quote a friend of mine:

"Twilight is badly written, anti-feminist drivel. Softcore porn for teenage girls and gay men insecure in their sexuality who couldn't recognise good writing if it slapped them round the face. It is amateurish, every sentence contains far too many adjectives, many of which are used improperly. It is a terrible, terrible book which can only serve to rot the minds of those whose eyes are unfortunate to land upon it."

MSN convo's with English Literature students are great. :smile:


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## Deleted member 33527

Yes. Why shouldn't you finish a book you've already started? Just because some people may not like it doesn't necessarily mean you won't. Leave the judging to you, hun.


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## VinrAlfakyn

Personally, I loved Twilight, but I believe it's important to form your own views of the books you read. If you don't like a book, that's fine! If you do, that's fine too! It's all opinion! That's why we have so many different genres, because if one thing works for some people, it's no guarantee it'll work for others. This is true for everything in life, books, music, movies, clothes, food, etc. I hate pickles! Should every pickle-lover try to persuade me to give them another try? Form your own opinions, that's all I'm saying.


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## Yanlins

Jewells said:


> Thanks a lot guys, this actually helps me a lot!
> 
> (etc...)
> 
> Thanks for your help guys



I just had the feeling that you were trying to change subject here.  Oh well. It's great to be back. No judgement on Twilight, since it sorta incites fury in either one of the camps no matter what I say(At least, in my experience D: ).

Oh heck. Now I'm gonna get fire from _both_ camps.


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## Deleted member 33527

> Oh heck. Now I'm gonna get fire from _both_ camps.


For some reason that reminds me of Lost. Try to avoid Smokie the Smoke Monster, Newnonel.


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## Yanlins

I've never watched Lost.

And whoever Smokie is, I have wind on my side.  

So there.


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## Deleted member 33527

Good luck.


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## Patrick

I read the first few paragraphs of either the second or third one and was horrified. I only ventured to have a look because of this thread.

She has an amateurish turn of phrase and it's really impossible to get past that.

I suppose people just like the concept. I thought it was god-awful in every way possible. When I read, I pick a book apart unless it is well-written and so when I see the facade crumbling before I've read beyond the first couple of pages, I know it's a bad one. In this case, I was killed off by the first sentence.

I worry about the state of general readership if this is what it is deemed deep or engaging. It certainly makes me appreciate good writing in other authors; we really shouldn't take it for granted.


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## caelum

The general readership doesn't have a clue what quality writing is, they're just attracted to _good ideas_.  Let's look at Michael Chricton.  I can't stand Michael Chricton's actual writing, cause he's a little condescending among other things, but he's got these million-dollar ideas.

What if there was this theme park on an island run by mad, rich geneticists that's secretly a dinosaur zoo, and then people have to run from the t-rex?  I love that idea.  What if there's this alien ship that they find in the ocean, turns out it's actually a human ship from the future - bummer - but wait!  There's some kind of alien artifact in there!  Wooooaaaaah, freaky.

Just like The Davinci Code.  People just buy it cause it supposedly "casts doubt on the bible" not because of the quality of its story.

Twilight is a girl's fantasy.  A superhero, demigod-like guy, who is oh so pretty which we're reminded of approxamitely eight times per sentance, falls in love with the plain jane clutzy outcast newgirl.  These are books that should have been b-grade movies, and usually were those too.  They should have skipped the book stage.

edit: scratch that.  Jurassic Park was an amazing movie, way better than the book.


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## Arwen Dune

It's not you.  Those books are written awfully and were written for the hormonal teenage girl.  I read it just to finish the series and because all my friends were talking about it.  The end of the last book is absolutely awful.  most books have a slope that peaks and gently drops with this book you just fall off the cliff.  The end was ubrupt and not something you want in a book.


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## skyye

Personally, I think its absolute and utter cerap. Its just really bad fanfiction....but if it makes thousands of people happy...perhaps its a good book? Who knows the definition?
My advice is... read Jane Eyre. You'll feel better for it.


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## Jones

If I might.  Close the novel.  Go pick up one of these:

American Gods (Neil Gaiman), Anansi Boys (Neil Gaiman), Crooked Little Vein (Warren Ellis), Snow Crash (Neil Stephenson), Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell (Susanna Clark)

Those are really fun reads.  Or, at least, I thought they were.


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## DarkDyer

> Twilight is a girl's fantasy. A superhero, demigod-like guy, who is oh so pretty which we're reminded of approxamitely eight times per sentance, falls in love with the plain jane clutzy outcast newgirl. These are books that should have been b-grade movies, and usually were those too. They should have skipped the book stage.



And kudos to that.


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## Hawke

> Should I keep reading?


NO!

Well, only if you’re willing to ignore the lousy writing and skip over the dangerous tripe the author is selling to misguided teenage girls, not to mention setting female rights and laws back into the dark ages. Tell me, after all work to get laws passed, why on earth would anyone (a woman and mother, no less) tell young girls that a guy stalking them isn’t really stalking, but love?  And sexual assault. And don’t even get me started about lying to your family, wanting to die, wanting to kill, suicidal tendencies, mental abuse, etc., etc., etc. 

Yes, this is a very good book… for messing up a young and impressionable female mind. Just great.


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## Blue Shades

It's true that the book has some negative messages, but the readers don't have to take them.
The series are directed to teenagers. 
I watched the movie before reading the book. To me, the book was better.


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## ooghost1oo

Jewells said:


> Hey guys I just started the first Twilight book, 100 pages in, and I'm having a hard time seeing the appeal.  It just seems like poorly written drivel to me.  Am I missing something???  I've had several well educated professional friends (in their mid to late 20s) coerce me into starting the series but I don't think I can go on.  I'm surprised they like it - it seems very immature and poorly constructed.  If I hate the first 100 pages is it likely that I will hate the next 100?  Or does it somehow get better??  I don't know it just seems like such crap that I am having a hard time understanding how it ever got published...  My options are continue reading this or start on Jane Eyre.  Thanks for the help



I'm almost done with it. I think it's great.

Admittedly, the author throws around those ... I forget the term ... ways the character says something with an action verb instead of simply 'said' or 'replied' ...

("What?" she blinked.)
("Get outta here," he hissed.)

... but her style is nice and consistent, so I got used to it. It really is a cool story, with GREAT characterization, and truly conveys what it would be like to have a relationship with a real vampire. (Reality meshed very well with impossible fantasy.)

I avoided it in the beginning (the movie, too) because of the hype and mainstream sensationalism. But it really surprised me.


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## MarcyOne

The book is marketed at Young Adult readers but it has the ability to cross 
age barriers and will satisfy both teenagers and adults alike.

Twilight is simply and yet beautifully written.  The descriptions of Forks leave 
you feeling like you can almost smell the damp air and hear the rain falling on 
the roof. 

There is a melancholic feel to their impossible love, yet at the same time they 
both are unwilling to give up hope that their relationship is not doomed.


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## Deleted member 33527

All I know is that I love Twilight, and I think you should finish the book before you decide if you like it or not.


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## Leneth

ooghost1oo said:


> I'm almost done with it. I think it's great.
> 
> Admittedly, the author throws around those ... I forget the term ... ways the character says something with an action verb instead of simply 'said' or 'replied' ...
> 
> ("What?" she blinked.)
> ("Get outta here," he hissed.)
> 
> ... but her style is nice and consistent, so I got used to it. It really is a cool story, with GREAT characterization, and truly conveys what it would be like to have a relationship with a real vampire. (Reality meshed very well with impossible fantasy.)
> 
> I avoided it in the beginning (the movie, too) because of the hype and mainstream sensationalism. But it really surprised me.


 

**Engaging Rant mode, please standby...**

*sigh* Okay. I'll admit my hatred for this series is irrational and based solely on conjecture, as I've never read the books and probably never will. So whether or not it's good overal is something I'll leave to those with legitimate opinions.

That being said, I know enough about the series to know that _Twilight _has no _real _vampires in it. Call me a purist, but I have too much respect for the occult to accept a vampire story that disregards the main themes and mythos of a vampire story.

Vampires are bloodsucking creatures of the night. They entrance with their mysterious seductiveness or shock us with their monstrous appearance. They knock us humans off the top of the food chain, hiding from us as if they come from another world entirely. They struggle to maintain their former humanity as they are compelled by hunger to sate their horrible appetites.

Yes they brood, but they also indulge in their 'true' nature on occasion (if not often) and forego relationships with humans, burdened with the inescapable truth of their situation. After all, one can hardly maintain a healthy, loving relationship with their food. Not to mention the risks of being in vampire society with a blood source on your arm, for both you and yours (something which I believe _Twilight_ does illustrate).

For me, a vampire story is all about showing what makes a human human by taking what was once an ordinary man or woman and changing them into a blood-sucking monster. It's about showing us the darkness that lies in the heart of man, unleashed only when the chains of a normal life are removed. The question of a vampire should be, "Can a man claimed by this evil still be human?", *not*, "Can a vampire and a human know true love?" At best, the latter would be used as a supplementary plot to the former, but _Twilight _switches the two around, squandering the potential depth of a vampire story for what could be considered a pre-teen romance novel.

Oh, and one last note: the only time a vampire should sparkle in the sunlight is _right before it bursts into flames_. I don't care what anyone says, there is no way anyone can convince me of that concept's legitimacy. I mean, again, vampires are creatures of the night, often considered superior to humans in every way. The fact that they couldn't walk around during the day is the only thing that gave normal people a shot at survival and/or freedom against them. That one little edge changed vampires from horrible, unredeemable, fearsome monsters to something that could be scary but also intriguing, strong but not invincible, inhuman yet sympathetic.

Apologies if I've upset anyone, but far as I can tell _Twilight_ has either abused or ignored the entire point of having vampires in a story and simply used them to make this YA romance story into a highly marketable phenomenon. It does _not _have real vampires, and I shudder to think how many people could be getting the wrong idea about them and what they can represent.

Between that and the quantity _and degree_ of hate I've seen this series get, I cannot believe anything besides personal taste will make this thing bearable. Which is not to say people that like it are wrong - Lord knows I enjoy some pretty wretched stuff from time to time - but toughing out this series solely in the hopes of seeing it improve is a fool's endeavor. It's kinda like the Star Wars prequels in that sense, but that's another debate.

**Pressure stabilizing, disengaging Rant mode...**


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## Tom88

Very well put Leneth. Hit the nail on the head.


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## Leneth

Danke. :smile:


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## Skye Jules

I tried reading Twilight, but it was frankly boring and too predictable. The titles of the chapters pretty much told you exactly what was going to happen. 

By the way, when I read the line about Edward sparkling, I imagine he woke up in the morning and doused himself in body glitter. 

I'm not bothered by Meyer's supposed abuse of vampires. After all, they are fictional creatures, subject to change. Witches and wizards weren't always these heroes that a lot of novels make them out to be. In fact, when people first wrote about them, they were evil beings who did dark spells and turned you into some lesser life form, like a rat. But that's changed over time. Same with vampires. 

I just hate the story structure and character development in general. Bella's this two-dimensional whiny weakling who doesn't change at all throughout the series, learns absolutely nothing (read excerpts and people's opinions in general, mind you. So, everything I say is going based off excerpts and word of mouth from rabid fans), and gets everything she wants in the end, this sappy, happily-ever-after fairy tale, and all of a sudden finds herself fit to be a mother. Let me not rant anymore, because I will get vicious.


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## Deleted member 33527

> and all of a sudden finds herself fit to be a mother.


Yeah that was just too weird. I did like the first three books, but the last one seriously put me off.


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## caelum

figaro figaro fIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGarooooooooOOOOOOOOO


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## Himani

hermitcrab said:


> The only vampire novel for teens I've ever read is The Thief of Always by Clive Barker.  Now that's a good read.



Love Clive Barker's work. 

There's good vampire novels out there for teens that are in the same "romance" genre but have plot development and characterization. L.J. Smith's works come to mind. And there's ones that lean more towards horror/drama that are very well done, as well. The Silver Kiss and Christopher Pike's The Last Vampire series come to mind. Granted, I was reading teen books years ago, so all my suggestions have originally been published a while ago (the pre-Sparkle years  ), although since vampires are "in" right now, all of the old books I used to read are getting reprinted. 

I read _Twilight_ about a year ago and could only, barely, get through the first one. I had heard the general plot and knew that it was something I wouldn't like, but my co-worker (a very bright, no-nonsense 28 year old woman) raved about it, claiming it was "the best vampire book she'd ever read." Hearing this, I naively thought, _If she likes it, maybe it's not all that bad?_ I could not imagine my co-worker liking something like Twilight -- I still can't.

From a writer's standpoint, the writing is very bad, filled with purple prose and adverbs, a lack of characterization and plot, and weak research on places/people (many of the Native Americans seemed like cardboard cut-outs of stereotypes).

I have flipped through the other ones, wondering if it gets better. I found it did not, in fact some of the things that happen to Bella disturbed me on many levels and I wondered why anyone claimed she was a strong heroine that was a good role model. Her blind devotion to Edward borders on creepy. Edward's emotionally abusive tendencies are definitely creepy. In a way, they're made for each other. 

If you dislike the book now, I doubt it will get better for you. If you dislike it enough to question whether you should be reading it -- then stop. There's so much to read out there, why waste your time? But, I would suggest making your own opinion about the series.


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## Deleted member 33527

Speaking of Stephenie Meyer, I just read on her website that they're turning her adult novel, The Host, into a movie. Yay!!!


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## Hawke

_The Host_? Oh goodie. How do I get off this bus?  

Mind if I'm blunt?

_The Host_ is a warped _Animorphs _/_ Invasion of the Body Snatchers_ cross in the poorly-written style of _Twilight_ (published in 2005—a Mrs. Meyer fantasy; fan fiction at its worst), which itself was a snatch and grab mainly from the novel _The Southern Vampire Mysteries _(informally known as _The Sookie Stackhouse Novels / Chronicles _and retronymed the TRUE BLOOD Series upon their reprinting, a series of books written by The New York Times bestselling author Charlaine Harris, first published in 2001 - all credit for the SVM info goes to Wikipedia), among others. So thanks, but no thanks. There are far better writers on this site than Mrs. Meyer, with far better stories to tell.


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## Deleted member 33527

And yet you still read the books. Just saying.


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## Hawke

Ah now, reading the books does not mean I thought they were in any way good or would recommend them. I just call 'em as I see 'em. 

I read _Twilight_ out of hype curiosity. Read the first few pages of _The Host_ for the same reason. Wish I hadn't... but so it goes. They did do two things for me though - they made me appreciate good works even more than I already did, and made me feel more deeply (anger directed at the publishing world, mostly) for the many deserving but so far unlucky authors.


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## Skye Jules

Hawke said:


> _The Host_? Oh goodie. How do I get off this bus?
> 
> Mind if I'm blunt?
> 
> _The Host_ is a warped _Animorphs _/_ Invasion of the Body Snatchers_ cross in the poorly-written style of _Twilight_ (published in 2005—a Mrs. Meyer fantasy; fan fiction at its worst), which itself was a snatch and grab mainly from the novel _The Southern Vampire Mysteries _(informally known as _The Sookie Stackhouse Novels / Chronicles _and retronymed the TRUE BLOOD Series upon their reprinting, a series of books written by The New York Times bestselling author Charlaine Harris, first published in 2001 - all credit for the SVM info goes to Wikipedia), among others. So thanks, but no thanks. There are far better writers on this site than Mrs. Meyer, with far better stories to tell.



Am I one of those writers? :scratch:

In any case, she apparently majored in literature. You think that would help with her writing, but I suppose not. Taking AP Senior Lit greatly helped with my writing--plus, it made me discover that writing short stories isn't hard as I thought it once was. If I were the university who graduated her, I'd tear that diploma right out of her hands, because she just made a mockery of it.

I know there are probably worse writers out there, but I doubt those writers aren't even close to being big like Meyer is.


----------



## Deleted member 33527

Wow now that is just mean.


----------



## Deleted member 33527

Hawke, did you read the rest of the Twilight series?


----------



## edropus

I don't mean to break off topic here, but I'm curious: if these writers (Meyer, for example) are that bad - and I'm not disagreeing or agreeing that they are - how do they get published?  Are there ideas generally just good enough to carry the book?  Friends with publishers?  Money to get it started?  Just plain luck?


----------



## Skye Jules

edropus said:


> I don't mean to break off topic here, but I'm curious: if these writers (Meyer, for example) are that bad - and I'm not disagreeing or agreeing that they are - how do they get published?  Are there ideas generally just good enough to carry the book?  Friends with publishers?  Money to get it started?  Just plain luck?



For one thing, it's marketable. Since the majority of its audience consists of young teenage (or pre-teen girls), it attracts that crowd. I mean, this novel does play on fantasies of getting a hot guy (blech). 

Plus, don't quote me on this, some author on another writing website told me that an intern at either Jodi Reamer's agency or her publisher picked it up and didn't realize that her word count was too big to be considered YA--although this is rather touch and go, because agents don't always dismiss something because of word count, even if it is YA. 

It's poorly written, but it seems that the story is too good and just disguises the poor writing. Plus, the masses out there who eat this book up don't seem to realize it's poorly written.


----------



## Dr. Malone

I think she went to Brigham Young.  She's a mormon, right?  I'm not sure how I know either of those things.  I think I read an article about her when the movie came out.  I'd never heard of the series and googled it to see what it was.


----------



## Hawke

Dreamworx95 said:


> Hawke, did you read the rest of the Twilight series?



Yes, I read it all. Pretty sure I gave my thoughts about it and the messages it sends to young readers earlier in this thread. 

My apologies if I came off sounding harsh, but that work and its messages really, seriously makes me grit my teeth.


----------



## Dr. Malone

So the girl in Twilight becomes a vampire?  That's what I'm hoping Sookie will do in True Blood.


----------



## caelum

Just saw this video of Stephenie Meyer, and it was really cool.  She seems like a great person in real life.

YouTube - Stephenie Meyer Talks About Twilight, New Moon, and Eclipse


----------



## Dr. Malone

I wonder if the feedback comments are an accurate representation of her readers.


----------



## Deleted member 33527

> Yes, I read it all. Pretty sure I gave my thoughts about it and the messages it sends to young readers earlier in this thread.
> 
> My apologies if I came off sounding harsh, but that work and its messages really, seriously makes me grit my teeth.


I don't understand why, if you absolutely hated Twilight with all your heart, you would continue with the rest of the series.


----------



## Dr. Malone

So she can be informed about it.  It's much more respectable, and one's opinion much more valid, if they have a knowledge of the thing they're arguing against.


----------



## Deleted member 33527

Why would you read something you totally hate just because everyone else is talking about it? I've heard about that new Vampire Diaries show so I got curious and started reading the book. Got to page 90 and couldn't finish the rest.


----------



## BeL

.


----------



## Himani

Dreamworx95 said:


> Why would you read something you totally hate just because everyone else is talking about it? I've heard about that new Vampire Diaries show so I got curious and started reading the book. Got to page 90 and couldn't finish the rest.



I liked the Vampire Diaries when I first read it, but hated Twilight. Personal taste makes all the difference.  Granted, I read Vampire Diaries about a decade ago...but, since the author is continuing the series, I'm probably going to re-read it. I still like a lot of her stuff.

I finished Twilight even though I hated it after the first few chapters. I kept thinking, "Maybe it'll get better and this is just the set-up? Something awesome will happen to flip everything around?" After all, it was a fantasy book with vampires, werewolves, etc. And, as Malone says, it's good to be well-informed about a topic. If I didn't like Twilight, I wanted to know exactly why I didn't like it. Which helps when people keep saying, "Why don't you like it?!" I can point to places in the actual book that I really disliked.


----------



## GunslingersRequiem

*Jewells--Let me make this easy for you and break it down into basics.  I, myself, have tried to read Twilight based off the 'praise' I've heard about the series.  I made it about 10 pages in, and made it that far only because I was on the shitter and had nothing better on me.  It's complete drivel.  There are a couple of primary reasons it has become popular; they are as follows:*

*A.  Teenage schoolgirls tear into anything that has a male 'hero' as its premise, especially when that male 'hero' is a (and I'm laughing my ass off as I write this) 'sparkly vampire'.  I enjoyed reading the Harry Potter books until the end of the last one, and that only because J. K. Rowling is capable of involving the males in her story (with action sequences, kickass killing techniques, etc.).  HOWEVER, it must be noted that the majority of what she writes is centralized around the female emotion chain.  By this, I mean that younger females are naturally drawn to things like Ron being pursued by Lavender, Ron being pissed off at Krum b/c Hermione wants to hit that, the whole 'Goblet of Fire' ball in itself, Harry himself, etc. etc.  Since those books ended, there really hasn't been anything for young women to sink their sex-fantasy teeth into.  Until Twilight, that is.*

*B.  Being educated is different from being involved in literary exercise.  For instance, my girlfriend's sister is training to become a psychologist and absolutely adores Twilight.  However, she is the furthest thing from a writer you can get.  Any respectable person of what I shall again refer to as 'literary exercise' can spot the lackluster writing that prevails in Twilight.  It's all "I went and did this, I went and did that.  He said, she said.  The car went to the right and I felt my stomach flip-flop."  Shit like that.  Anybody with a Bic pen and a milk carton can write that variety of shite.  What Meyer relied on, and what made her a hit, was the story itself.  Teenage girls with a hard-on (not literally) for Edward the sparkling, walk-in-the-daylight (complete bullshit) vampire love the things he does, and only care about the girl (I can't remember her name) insomuch that they wish they were her. *

*Now, about the educated comment, I have something to take it further.  There's this girl on Youtube (I can't remember her Christing name) that responded to Stephen King's comment about how Stephenie Meyer (and these are my own words) can't write for shit.  Mr. King was a little nicer about it.  However, this girl on Youtube decided that it would be in her best interest to say that Stephen King is jealous of Stephenie Meyer because she is in the limelight.  I nearly hit the floor laughing.  Stephenie Meyer has sold a few million copies of her books--King's books have sold in the hundreds of millions, and they will go down as classics while Meyer's work will go down as "Why the fuck did I read that shit?"  This goes to show you that while educated people may fall into the Twilight nightmare, it is easily speculated that at least some of those reading the series are no smarter than the wad of gum you occassionally find on the bottom of your shoe.  *

*All in all, I say if you find it complete drivel (like I did), then fuck it.  There are thousands of authors out there that will hold your interest and actually teach you something about the art of writing.  Go with Stephen King, Michael Crichton, Jack McDevitt, and John Grisham, or with classics like Charles Dickens, J. D. Salinger, or Edgar Allen Poe.  Fuck, you could go to the library and randomly pick out six books and still have better odds of finding something worthwhile than the complete trash you'd find in Twilight.  Besides, the sooner Meyer loses another potential fan, the sooner we can stop looking at fancy covers that harness the infinite power of crap.  *


----------



## caelum

Juiciest, best thought out rant on Twilght I've seen in a while.  Respect.

I have to say that the one thing that really bothered me with the series - not so much the quality of the writing itself - was the morals it espoused.  They're downright stoneage.  The helpless, woe-is-me heroine (not that she deserves that title; more like emo crybaby beotch), the creepy possessive boyfriend, all the anti-feminist undertones, the importance of beauty, and more. So much more.

Young girls would have been better didactically serviced if Bella demonstrated that she didn't need Edward to spoonfeed her her applesauce without it spilling all over her bib.  "There there, Bella! Num nums!  Good Bella!"  She should have taken on some vamps or some shit, that is before the last novel when she became UltraWoman.  I mean a vampire.  Since when are Vampires _that_ intense, and immune to _all_ the old weaknesses?  Puh-_Leeeeeeeeeeeeze._


----------



## LionofPerth

Strange thought I had when I was at an expo down here. I saw a picture of Edward next to a black and white shot from an early Nosferatu piece. Now I know which vampire I would prefer to see, but for a moment, the looks(expression) weren't that different.


----------



## Skye Jules

GunslingersRequiem said:


> *Jewells--Let me make this easy for you and break it down into basics.  I, myself, have tried to read Twilight based off the 'praise' I've heard about the series.  I made it about 10 pages in, and made it that far only because I was on the shitter and had nothing better on me.  It's complete drivel.  There are a couple of primary reasons it has become popular; they are as follows:*
> 
> *A.  Teenage schoolgirls tear into anything that has a male 'hero' as its premise, especially when that male 'hero' is a (and I'm laughing my ass off as I write this) 'sparkly vampire'.  I enjoyed reading the Harry Potter books until the end of the last one, and that only because J. K. Rowling is capable of involving the males in her story (with action sequences, kickass killing techniques, etc.).  HOWEVER, it must be noted that the majority of what she writes is centralized around the female emotion chain.  By this, I mean that younger females are naturally drawn to things like Ron being pursued by Lavender, Ron being pissed off at Krum b/c Hermione wants to hit that, the whole 'Goblet of Fire' ball in itself, Harry himself, etc. etc.  Since those books ended, there really hasn't been anything for young women to sink their sex-fantasy teeth into.  Until Twilight, that is.*
> 
> *B.  Being educated is different from being involved in literary exercise.  For instance, my girlfriend's sister is training to become a psychologist and absolutely adores Twilight.  However, she is the furthest thing from a writer you can get.  Any respectable person of what I shall again refer to as 'literary exercise' can spot the lackluster writing that prevails in Twilight.  It's all "I went and did this, I went and did that.  He said, she said.  The car went to the right and I felt my stomach flip-flop."  Shit like that.  Anybody with a Bic pen and a milk carton can write that variety of shite.  What Meyer relied on, and what made her a hit, was the story itself.  Teenage girls with a hard-on (not literally) for Edward the sparkling, walk-in-the-daylight (complete bullshit) vampire love the things he does, and only care about the girl (I can't remember her name) insomuch that they wish they were her. *
> 
> *Now, about the educated comment, I have something to take it further.  There's this girl on Youtube (I can't remember her Christing name) that responded to Stephen King's comment about how Stephenie Meyer (and these are my own words) can't write for shit.  Mr. King was a little nicer about it.  However, this girl on Youtube decided that it would be in her best interest to say that Stephen King is jealous of Stephenie Meyer because she is in the limelight.  I nearly hit the floor laughing.  Stephenie Meyer has sold a few million copies of her books--King's books have sold in the hundreds of millions, and they will go down as classics while Meyer's work will go down as "Why the fuck did I read that shit?"  This goes to show you that while educated people may fall into the Twilight nightmare, it is easily speculated that at least some of those reading the series are no smarter than the wad of gum you occassionally find on the bottom of your shoe.  *
> 
> *All in all, I say if you find it complete drivel (like I did), then fuck it.  There are thousands of authors out there that will hold your interest and actually teach you something about the art of writing.  Go with Stephen King, Michael Crichton, Jack McDevitt, and John Grisham, or with classics like Charles Dickens, J. D. Salinger, or Edgar Allen Poe.  Fuck, you could go to the library and randomly pick out six books and still have better odds of finding something worthwhile than the complete trash you'd find in Twilight.  Besides, the sooner Meyer loses another potential fan, the sooner we can stop looking at fancy covers that harness the infinite power of crap.  *



Now this is a perfect explanation. I actually wrote a column that got published about Stephen King basically calling Meyer a shitty writer. Of course, that was a failed column because the editor edited it so much that it made it seem as though I were in favor of Meyer instead of King (the section had to be cut down, so naturally, word count with it).


----------



## LionofPerth

The curse of the editor then?

I'd like to say I can see why people would like Twilight, but some of the remarks, especially relating to the comments re the Stephen King comments have been, well, the stable of the modern media, sensationalised. Now not knowing exactly what was said, I can only go on the paraphrasing, if that, I've read. Now he's entitled to an opinion, I happen to share it. 

I think everyone could do with taking a step back from this, and ether admiting they like it for escapism, or don't like it, and leave it at that. Of course, getting the more.... enthused fans to do so. I think alot of us, as budding or actual authors need to show, rather than say, we are better. Who knows, maybe some good new literature and future classics might arise from this period of pulp publishing. ​


----------



## wolfe:)

How can you say that about the series? Twilight is one of the best books/series ever written. You can't appreciate it if you have only read 10 pages for a start, you have to at least read the first two chapters before you can make a judgement. Although there are a lot of them around, it is a romeo and juliet story and trust me, it is a lot better than the original. You cannot possibly say that Meyer is a shit writer due to all the success she has had based on the books and now the movies.

Twilight is worth reading and there are millions who would agree with me.


----------



## moderan

wolfe:) said:


> How can you say that about the series? Twilight is one of the best books/series ever written. You can't appreciate it if you have only read 10 pages for a start, you have to at least read the first two chapters before you can make a judgement. Although there are a lot of them around, it is a romeo and juliet story and trust me, it is a lot better than the original. You cannot possibly say that Meyer is a shit writer due to all the success she has had based on the books and now the movies.
> 
> Twilight is worth reading and there are millions who would agree with me.



And you're all absolutely wrong. Stephenie Meyer is a shit writer.More rants and info.

Twilight is better than Romeo and Juliet? That's truly zany.


----------



## Cefor

Haha, some of the comments are hilarious. Makes me wonder whether you read it or just went through looking for things that were wrong. 
I may go back one day and find that I hate the stories instead of love them because the writing is bad (I did that with Harry Potter) but right now, they are awesome and I'd recommend them to anyone.

There was a comment a few pages back about there is no bad vampires? Haha of course there are, that's what the books are about. The good vampires protecting Bella from the bad ones, with the shapeshifters (a.k.a wolves of Quileute tribe) helping when the vampires aren't available. Victoria is chasing Bella pretty much all of the way through the series. Eclipse and Breaking Dawn were the better of the four books, purely because it gets into the more interesting powers and newborn armies and all that sort of thing.

And then there is... L..somebody who posted on page 5... said that they hate the book(s) without reading them which is just ignorant, there's no reason to hate the book without reading it first.

Cheers, 
Cefor


----------



## fantasy girl

Jewells, I don't see why you are asking this. We can not tell you whether to read a book or not. If you like it, read it. If you don't like it, don't read it. It is not up to us.

I have one problem though. This isn't aimed you Jewells. Why do people have a problem with sparkly vampires? Meyer did something different right. Whats wrong with that? If someone hadn't done something different, vampires wouldn't have been invented in the first place.

Is there a rule book that says vampires have to come out at night, that they have to burn, or burst into flames when they go into sunlight, that they can't sparkle in sunlight.

I love the books, and I want you to know why. I'm having a pretty rough time at home at the moment. My Mother and Father are both out of work and were living of cheep, happy shopper food. Reading fantasy gives me a release that other books don't. It helps me get away from home and into a little place of my own. These books do just that. I know Meyer is not the best writer in the world, and she never claimed to be. I agree that she needs an editor, her SPaG is dire. But all that aside, the series has a good plot line, she develops the characters well, and you learn to love them (some of them at least). 

Some of you may not like the books, some of you may. But you can't tell someone to read (or not read, in many cases) the books, it is up to them, no one else.

Fantasy Girl xx

--- EDIT

*This is true* - _And then there is... L..somebody who posted on page 5... said that they hate the book(s) without reading them which is just ignorant, there's no reason to hate the book without reading it first._

Can't believe this. How can you say somethings crap when you haven't even read it?


----------



## Leyline

Give it up, mod. Just because we've spend decades studying, loving and _defending_ the length and breadth of genre fiction, we're obviously just completely wrong about these brilliant books because some freakin' teeny-boppers who wouldn't know LeFanu from Quinn-Yarbo really really LIKES 'EM! THEY REALLY LIKES 'EM!

BTW, the above was said with glorious agonized eyes, while I attempted to smolder. Also, I looked allured.


----------



## Ungood

Dr. Malone said:


> So she can be informed about it.  It's much more respectable, and one's opinion much more valid, if they have a knowledge of the thing they're arguing against.



Why do you feel the need to "argue against" something like Twilight? It's a book. If you don't like it, so be it.


----------



## Ungood

Leyline said:


> Give it up, mod. Just because we've spend decades studying, loving and _defending_ the length and breadth of genre fiction, we're obviously just completely wrong about these brilliant books because some freakin' teeny-boppers who wouldn't know LeFanu from Quinn-Yarbo really really LIKES 'EM! THEY REALLY LIKES 'EM!
> 
> BTW, the above was said with glorious agonized eyes, while I attempted to smolder. Also, I looked allured.



So it's Fan-Boys vs. Fan-Girls. How fittingly ironic.


----------



## moderan




----------



## JosephB

Leyline said:


> BTW, the above was said with glorious agonized eyes, while I attempted to smolder. Also, I looked allured.


There is a smile hovering around the edges of my broad lips.


----------



## alanmt

Leyline said:


> the above was said with glorious agonized eyes, while I attempted to smolder. Also, I looked allured.


 
Hi there.


----------



## alanmt

I'm jumping on this gravy train.


----------



## Leyline

alanmt said:


> Hi there.



Sorry, brah. No man can handle what the Angry 'Bot packs. It takes a _woman_. An extremely fat woman who no longer experiences pain and terror the way ordinary people do.


----------



## Leyline

JosephB said:


> There is a smile hovering around the edges of my broad lips.



As I watch that emerging smile it seemed to grow more allured and amuserated, quickly climbing from ghosty almostness to smoldery completeness. I try to swoon unsluttily.


----------



## Leyline

alanmt said:


> I'm jumping on this gravy train.



"Last gravy train through these parts got robbed," the old prospector informed him, spitting a glistening wad of spit and tobacco an amazing distance. "Now an' ol' dawg like me don't rile the chicken coop much these days, but a man lookin' for gravy might check out the Parsons up McPeak Way. I ain't sayin' nothin', coss. Just that, them Parson's, they ain't hurtin for anything to put on mash taters."


----------



## Like a Fox

Reading Twilight is really pretty enjoyable, if you pay absolutely no attention to the writing.

I was being a brain-dead-candy-reader when I read it. And even then, her over-use of the words Chagrin and Russet were enough to make me hope never to read those words again. Oh and Marble.

My friend just read it all again recently. She found this beauty:
There's a moment where Bella thinks something along the lines of, _Then I knew Edward wasn't really asleep._
Pretty sure he never sleeps, Bella, you absolute zero.


----------



## moderan

fantasy girl said:


> J
> 
> 
> But all that aside, the series has a good plot line, she develops the characters well, and you learn to love them (some of them at least).



No it doesn't, and no, she doesn't, and no I didn't. All of that was covered in the thread I linked to.



Cefor said:


> Haha, some of the comments are hilarious. Makes me wonder whether you read it or just went through looking for things that were wrong.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Cefor



If you wonder that then you didn't actually read through the thread...which makes you guilty of the same kind of faulty judgement that you're decrying.

No, G., I won't give in. I enjoy these tweens being wrong at the top of their lungs and trying to justify their uninformed opinions. So I encourage that dialogue.


----------



## fantasy girl

moderan said:


> *If you wonder that then you didn't actually read through the thread...which makes you guilty of the same kind of faulty judgement that you're decrying.*
> 
> No, G., I won't give in. I enjoy these *tweens* being wrong at the top of their lungs and trying to justify their *uninformed* opinions. So I encourage that dialogue.



First, I'm 14 so that makes me a Teen, not a Tween.

Second, how can you call us uninformed? We have read the books, in my opinion that makes us more informed than some of the bums on this thread. You can't say somethings shit because thats what your best mate said, or thats what your sister/brother said. You have to read it yourself, and Mod, unless you have read all four books yourself, you cant say a word. You lot can not call us uninformed when we have actually read the books and you haven't.

Third, I'm going to back up Cefor on this one. I've read through the thread and i got the same impression. It's like you went through with a highlighter picking out each individual SPaG mistake. What you going to do next? Send it to Meyers' editor saying 'Eat the sucker, I've done a better job than you.'


----------



## moderan

fantasy girl said:


> First, I'm 14 so that makes me a Teen, not a Tween.
> 
> Second, how can you call us uninformed? We have read the books, in my opinion that makes us more informed than some of the bums on this thread. You can't say somethings shit because thats what your best mate said, or thats what your sister/brother said. You have to read it yourself, and Mod, unless you have read all four books yourself, you cant say a word. You lot can not call us uninformed when we have actually read the books and you haven't.


But you see, I can. The word you actually want to use is shouldn't...and you are uninformed because you haven't read the bulk of literature on the subject that is out there. You are also uniformed about life in general...you haven't the years under your belt.



fantasy girl said:


> Third, I'm going to back up Cefor on this one. I've read through the thread and i got the same impression. It's like you went through with a highlighter picking out each individual SPaG mistake. What you going to do next? Send it to Meyers' editor saying 'Eat the sucker, I've done a better job than you.'



That's two bb guns in tandem. Cefor thinks he knows about guitars too. You say you read through the thread but you're talking about a element of one post. Clearly there is a comprehension difficulty on your part.

Sooo, again-I _did _try to read Twilight, but the sp&g, not to mention the characters, were so bad I left off after forty pages and never went back.
I picked random sections of the book off the web and that's what I found, all of those mistakes. I have little doubt that I would find a raft of other ones by another attempt to peruse the thing, but I shan't.
So my reasoning and point both stand. It's a crappily-written book loved by an undiscerning section of the public. You're 14-you're exactly the target audience for the thing.
I'm not interested in reading any of the other three books. I am interested in arguing simply because Twilight fans are a particularly unwashed lot and you set off my dorkometer. Sometimes it amuses me to shoot fish in a barrel, and that's exactly what I'm doing.
So be a good fish and enjoy your fad-read. Perhaps it will lead you to something that is actually good. We can hope.


----------



## Uncivilized Serpent

wolfe:) said:


> Twilight is one of the best books/series ever written.


 Oh dear God, this is your humor...right?



wolfe:) said:


> You can't appreciate it if you have only read 10 pages for a start, you have to at least read the first two chapters before you can make a judgement.


 
I read the entire book...most of it focused on how "beautiful" this vampire boy was.....yeah I'm not going to appreciate a book like that.




wolfe:) said:


> Although there are a lot of them around, it is a romeo and juliet story and trust me, it is a lot better than the original.


 I agree that it's a Romeo/Juliet type of thing...better than the original, what the hell is wrong with you? uker: 




wolfe:) said:


> You cannot possibly say that Meyer is a shit writer due to all the success she has had based on the books and now the movies.


 
She "pushed" for it to be published. And I can possibly say that, I am!



wolfe:) said:


> Twilight is worth reading and there are millions who would agree with me.


 
The millions being the drooling teenage girls, I pressume?


----------



## fantasy girl

moderan said:


> Cefor thinks he knows about guitars too.


Is it your place to say he doesn't know about guitars? No.



moderan said:


> , again-I _did _try to read Twilight, but the sp&g, not to mention the characters, were so bad I left off after forty pages and never went back.



You read the first forty pages of the first book. Try read it again, the book gets better, and each book is better than the last.



moderan said:


> I picked random sections of the book off the web and that's what I found, all of those mistakes. I have little doubt that I would find a raft of other ones by another attempt to peruse the thing, but I shan't.
> So my reasoning and point both stand. It's a crappily-written book loved by an undiscerning section of the public. You're 14-you're exactly the target audience for the thing.



I ask then, if it's targeted at 14 year olds, why are there so many Twi-Mums/dads and middle aged readers? 



moderan said:


> I'm not interested in reading any of the other three books. I am interested in arguing simply because Twilight fans are a particularly unwashed lot and you set off my dorkometer. Sometimes it amuses me to shoot fish in a barrel, and that's exactly what I'm doing.
> So be a good fish and enjoy your fad-read. Perhaps it will lead you to something that is actually good. We can hope.



An unwashed lot who set of your dorkometer. Ouch. That hit home... Not. Do you really think I care about the insults you aimlessly throw around? You tried reading the books right, so therefore your a dork too.

Your arguing for the sake of arguing, not because you think it's right, not because of the crap SPaG and lack of character development. For the sake of arguing, thats it.


----------



## Uncivilized Serpent

caelum said:


> Rant time! Yeah!


 
You just got rep.


----------



## Uncivilized Serpent

fantasy girl said:


> I ask then, if it's targeted at 14 year olds, why are there so many Twi-Mums/dads and middle aged readers?


 
Because they're old, probably poorly educated and it's easy for them to understand?


----------



## Ungood

fantasy girl said:


> First, I'm 14 so that makes me a Teen, not a Tween.



Allow me to give you a lesson in life at this one moment, because I am both, on your side, and respect your development and don't want to see a the flicker of desire to create your story worlds, vampires and all, smothered under a mountain of rebuke.



> how can you call us uninformed?


They will call you uninformed: Because my dear, you have not read the countless other vampire novels that they feel are "Better" if not the "Best" books out there. Like true fan-boys of anything,(in this case "Vampires") anyone that goes mucking with what they love will meet their ire, and that includes the people that might enjoy the new vision or view of things.

Abet some of them are not true fan-boys and just wagon jumpers, still the mentality is the same.

Such is life, and here is a valuable lesson for you on this subject. Even if Mayer had impeccable SP&G in her work, they would just find something else. The SP&G is pointless to the actual discussion or even their distaste. They would find something (anything) to justify their rejecting her work.



> We have read the books, in my opinion that makes us more informed than some of the bums on this thread. You can't say somethings shit because thats what your best mate said, or thats what your sister/brother said.


I doubt Fantasy Girl that anyone here even cares what their best mate said, or pretty much what anyone says at all, I believe many of the them established their opinions long before they creased the binding of the book, or even bothered to look at it.

Lets be honest, It's a "Chick Love Story" and guys just don't go for that at the start, then there are the "Sparkly Vampires" if the Love story was not enough to gain their dislike, the non-bad-ass vampire was a deal breaker for all of them.



> You have to read it yourself, and Mod, unless you have read all four books yourself, you cant say a word. You lot can not call us uninformed when we have actually read the books and you haven't.


Mod has made it clear that the subject matter is very hard on him to witness Vampires being made into "Lovable" creatures. In that regard I give him kudos for honesty. It is his right to feel that way as well, he has his ideals and beliefs as to what a Vampire should be, and those that go mucking with that, desecrate what he holds as valuable. There is no way he would (or should) choke though such a work.

At the same time he should not berate you for enjoying what you enjoy, and if that is Mayers work, then so be it.



> Third, I'm going to back up Cefor on this one. I've read through the thread and i got the same impression. It's like you went through with a highlighter picking out each individual SPaG mistake. What you going to do next? Send it to Meyers' editor saying 'Eat the sucker, I've done a better job than you.'


I would not put that past some of them, as a few of them do seem to posses that level of audacious vanity.

Mod did bring up the SP&G points, and they are sound, but not really the issue. One could easily point out the wording of LOTR as almost impossible to choke through, or Dracula being along the lines of dry toast as far as dynamic writing goes.

I have read some of these "great works" that they sing the praise of and found them to be "Meh".

Like you, I can read a book because it _just a book_, a simple story and a few hours of enjoyment. It does not need to be more then that, where some people, well, it does.

My advice to you FG, is let them be. You can't change them, as they don't want to be changed. Enjoy what you enjoy and don't let anyone down talk to you for it, and write what you enjoy.

Be Fearless in your Creativity.


----------



## Uncivilized Serpent

fantasy girl said:


> An unwashed lot who set of your dorkometer. Ouch. That hit home... Not. Do you really think I care about the insults you aimlessly throw around?


You must, you quoted him saying you don't, so in fact you do.




fantasy girl said:


> You tried reading the books right, so therefore your a dork too.


We needed evidence to argue.

Edit: Some dorks are a little more fun to make fun of  There isn't just one type of dork.



fantasy girl said:


> Your arguing for the sake of arguing, not because you think it's right, not because of the crap SPaG and lack of character development. For the sake of arguing, thats it.


 
We are arguing because we think it's crap, not for the sake of arguing. We do think it's right...L, I just reversed your argument.

 I have read the books and watched the movies so I am not being a hypocrit, I have evidence to prove Twilight and the whole bleeding series sucks juicy grapefruit I HAVE SEEN AND READ THIS EVIDENCE. Caps for the win, anyone?


----------



## Ungood

Uncilvilized Serpent said:


> I have read the books and watched the movies so I am not being a hypocrit, I have evidence to prove Twilight and the whole bleeding series sucks juicy grapefruit I HAVE SEEN AND READ THIS EVIDENCE. Caps for the win, anyone?



Your only evidence is that you have sucky taste in literature or are total mentally defunct if you can't enjoy the masterwork wonder that is Twilight.

(If you didn't enjoy being insulted, don't insult others)


----------



## fantasy girl

Thanks Ungood


----------



## Uncivilized Serpent

Did you not follow the New Moon thread? I gave plenty of evidence, heh. Masterwork wonder...sounds like you're the mental defunct. Sorry bro.

-No character development.

-Endless Mary-Suism = pages upon pages describing Edward.

-Straight men sparkle? Yeah..

-They fall in love way too quickly and only because she smells good and he's sexy, there is no other reasons why....(fail).

-Overflowing with grammatical errors...I mean my spelling is pretty bad but at least I don't write something with all my errors and push for it to be published.

-This Bella has no goals or dreams (no future) her life revolves and depends on Edward.


I could name more but honestly, you've read the books right? :-&


----------



## Uncivilized Serpent

fantasy girl said:


> Thanks Ungood


 
At least some people stick up for you, eh? :wink::spidey::albino:


----------



## Uncivilized Serpent

Ungood said:


> (If you didn't enjoy being insulted, don't insult others)


 
I don't enjoy it, but I don't mind it. *Shrug* Happens when you stand up for what you believe in.


----------



## fantasy girl

Uncilvilized Serpent said:


> -Straight men sparkle? Yeah..



Again, whats with the Sparkly Vampires?

Is there a rule book about what a Vampire is (apart from they drink blood.) Mrs. Meyer did something different, if someone didn't do something different in the first place, vampires would never have been written about.

Just because he sparkles doesn't mean he's gay. They sparkle. Big woop.


----------



## PageOfCups

moderan said:


> Sooo, again-I _did _try to read Twilight, but the sp&g, not to mention the characters, were so bad I left off after forty pages and never went back.


 
Wow, you got past the blurb? You've got more stamina than I do. Then again someone did try to sell it to me as "a vampire book without the blood". . . . So that's a vampire book without the good bits then? And now mu girlfriend is trying to get me to read it, mostly because she wants to watch me die a little inside apparently, but still, the plot sumaries have not impressed me. I'd rather just re-read Carmilla.


----------



## Uncivilized Serpent

I am so tired but more on my rant/evidence.

-Lots of girls want guys that act like Edward, they obsess over this fictional boy but if any _real_ guy talked like Edward, any girl would probably laugh in his face. No fair.

-Bella tries to kill herself to hear Edward in her head.....

Next

-Sneaking into a girl's room and watching her sleep...how is that romantic? That is creepy and wrong, if that really happened to a girl I am SURE she would not like that and the guy (teen or not) would be arrested.

-Bella litterally has no life, hobbies/intrests...friends outside of this Edward >.> sad.

-Come on, young girls are reading this, girls as young as intermediate school are reading this. It's giving them bad ideas about how to be, dependant, needy, helpless. It's sick.


----------



## Ungood

Uncilvilized Serpent said:


> Did you not follow the New Moon thread?



Oh, you can bet I did. It was highly informative to say the least.


----------



## Uncivilized Serpent

Ungood said:


> Oh, you can bet I did. It was highly informative to say the least.


 
You did no better :???: I can keep naming "evidence" though. So if you like Twilight soo much, what's your take on Harry Potter then? An actual work of wonder.


----------



## fantasy girl

Uncilvilized Serpent said:


> I am so tired but more on my rant/evidence.
> 
> -Lots of girls want guys that act like Edward, they obsess over this fictional boy but if any _real_ guy talked like Edward, any girl would probably laugh in his face. No fair.
> 
> -Bella tries to kill herself to hear Edward in her head.....
> 
> Next
> 
> -Sneaking into a girl's room and watching her sleep...how is that romantic? That is creepy and wrong, if that really happened to a girl I am SURE she would not like that and the guy (teen or not) would be arrested.
> 
> -Bella litterally has no life, hobbies/intrests...friends outside of this Edward >.> sad.
> 
> -Come on, young girls are reading this, girls as young as intermediate school are reading this. It's giving them bad ideas about how to be, dependant, needy, helpless. It's sick.



BELLA DID NOT TRY TO KILL HERSELF. Bloody hell. Did you read the books? She takes up extreme sports like Cliff Diving to get an adrenalin rush to hear Edwards voice.

Bella doesn't have friends? What about Jacob? Mike? Eric? Jessica? Angela?

There books, kids/teenagers know they are not real, there not stupid. We do not believe everything that we read. Do you think we're stupid?


----------



## Ungood

fantasy girl said:


> Again, whats with the Sparkly Vampires?
> 
> Is there a rule book about what a Vampire is (apart from they drink blood.) Mrs. Meyer did something different, if someone didn't do something different in the first place, vampires would never have been written about.
> 
> Just because he sparkles doesn't mean he's gay. They sparkle. Big woop.



FG, Let me tell you now that there is a whole mythos about Vampires. I mean, mountains of crap written about them. More then you could maybe ever imagine. I mean in all seriousness just the current stuff could fill a good size basement. (Yes and quite literally there is a rule book)

And the Fan-Boys here, don't want their Mythos to be destroyed by, "Sparkly Vampires" so they call you uninformed because you don't know the vastness of the Vampire History that makes them... well.. legendary.

I hope that answers your question on this.

yes, "Sparkly Vampires" is a wrench in the whole "Dies in the Sunlight" that has been established for the last few hundred years or so..


----------



## Ungood

Uncilvilized Serpent said:


> You did no better :???: I can keep naming "evidence" though. So if you like Twilight soo much, what's your take on Harry Potter then? An actual work of wonder.



Do you really want me to address your points? I mean it feels like if I tried to explain them you would just go "Nu-huh" because you want them to be the facts, not that there is a hint of truth to them.

And yes, real men sparkle, dance, and cook, it is men that are insecure in their own masculinity that have issues with it.


----------



## Uncivilized Serpent

fantasy girl said:


> BELLA DID NOT TRY TO KILL HERSELF. Bloody hell. Did you read the books? She takes up extreme sports like Cliff Diving to get an adrenalin rush to hear Edwards voice.


 
My bad, that's not the same thing at all. I am so sorry 



fantasy girl said:


> Bella doesn't have friends? What about Jacob? Mike? Eric? Jessica? Angela??


 Yeah I could tell what kind of friends those are, especially since she pushes them to the side everytime Edward comes around. Great friend, *cough* bitch.




fantasy girl said:


> There books, kids/teenagers know they are not real, there not stupid. We do not believe everything that we read. Do you think we're stupid?


 
I think the majority are, yes? Sorry most teen girls are already (blank) enough...they don't need a bad guidebook


----------



## Uncivilized Serpent

Ungood said:


> Do you really want me to address your points? I mean it feels like if I tried to explain them you would just go "Nu-huh" because you want them to be the facts, not that there is a hint of truth to them.


 I really don't care, this is an on-going war.



Ungood said:


> And yes, real men sparkle, dance, and cook, it is men that are insecure in their own masculinity that have issues with it.


 
Bi-sexual men?


----------



## Ungood

Uncilvilized Serpent said:


> Bi-sexual men?



Dude..you must live a sheltered life.


----------



## Uncivilized Serpent

Is that so wrong?


----------



## JosephB

This was funny. Now it's getting kind of pathetic.


----------



## Ungood

Uncilvilized Serpent said:


> I really don't care, this is an on-going war.



No it's an ongoing test in stupidity. I mean really, what do the people that are insulting Twilight hope to accomplish, Coming across as bitter jackasses? (if that was your goal you're doing it with gold stars, and carry on then) 

But some of you might have an in idea to get people who enjoyed Twilight to read other Vampire stories, but do You honestly think anyone is going to want to read what you recommend or what you think is so great when you are insulting them and what they enjoy? 

Did you put rocks in your head this morning or did your fan-boy-spaz make your brains blow out your ears?


----------



## Ungood

JosephB said:


> This was funny. Now it's getting kind of pathetic.



Yah I can see how you would you find it funny watching grown adult men pick on a young girl.


----------



## fantasy girl

Uncilvilized Serpent said:


> My bad, that's not the same thing at all. I am so sorry



Ugh, quit it with the sarcasm, it is so annoying. 

You ever watched Dirty Sanchez, Uncivilized? Well thats all extreme sports, does that mean they're trying to kill themselves?


----------



## Uncivilized Serpent

Ungood said:


> Did you put rocks in your head this morning or did your fan-boy-spaz make your brains blow out your ears?


 

Both =D I have read all the books and seen the movies, I'm entitled to my own review of it.


----------



## Uncivilized Serpent

fantasy girl said:


> Ugh, quit it with the sarcasm, it is so annoying.


 It really, really is. AndI just broke my two month streak using it on you, because I hate sarcasm.



fantasy girl said:


> You ever watched Dirty Sanchez, Uncivilized? Well thats all extreme sports, does that mean they're trying to kill themselves?


 
No and no.


----------



## fantasy girl

Uncilvilized Serpent said:


> It really, really is. AndI just broke my two month streak using it on you, because I hate sarcasm.



If you hate it, why did you use it, you could have got your views across in another way.





Uncilvilized Serpent said:


> and no.



Well, how does Bella Cliff Diving mean she's trying to kill herself then?


----------



## Ungood

Uncilvilized Serpent said:


> Both =D I have read all the books and seen the movies, I'm entitled to my own review of it.



Yes you are. But don't forget that it's Just Your Opinion. My Opinion will be different and I expect you to respect that as you would like me to respect yours.


----------



## JosephB

Ungood said:


> Yah I can see how you would you find it funny watching grown adult men pick on a young girl.



I was actually referring to the primary exchange in the last page or two -- not including the young girl.


----------



## Ungood

fantasy girl said:


> Well, how does Bella Cliff Diving mean she's trying to kill herself then?



All extreme sports take in the risks of things, that is what makes them extreme and gives the people a "Rush" in this case, Bella was looking for the "rush" like a base jumper for example.

She was not trying to kill herself as she did not want to die from the activity.


----------



## PageOfCups

I wonder when/if a moderator will jump in and tell everyone to stop fighting.

And fantasy girl, give it a year or two of reading other things and you'll probably look back on Twilight and cringe like I do with Eragon. I recomend Carmilla (though it can be a nightmare to find and the language in it has dated somewhat in the last century) and the Noble Dead Saga by Barb & J.C. Hendee, it starts with Dhampir and might be in the fantasy or horror section of your local book shop. Where it's shelved varies from place to place since it crosses genre. Also Blood Sinister by Cilla Rees is really good, I bought it when I was 12 and 9 years on I still love it.


----------



## Uncivilized Serpent

fantasy girl said:


> If you hate it, why did you use it, you could have got your views across in another way.


 Tired? Trying to sound witty. God, I'm not sure! I have a headache jeez'.




Well, how does Bella Cliff Diving mean she's trying to kill herself then?[/quote]

She has no experiance, look at her age. You don't just decide to do this one day just like that :S


----------



## Ungood

JosephB said:


> I was actually referring to the primary exchange in last page or two -- not including the young girl.



Maybe some day Fantasy Girl will be lucky enough to have them picking her work in such a way, as she sits and watches her books made into Movies.

Added: I might even go see those movies. I have been enjoying her new WIP.


----------



## JosephB

PageOfCups said:


> I wonder when/if a moderator will jump in and tell everyone to stop fighting.



Or folks could self-moderate -- run along and do something more productive. Maybe write something or offer a critique.


----------



## fantasy girl

I tried reading Eragon, but couldn't get into it. The same with the Harry Potter Books.

I'm getting the Ann Rice books for Christmas, and i want to read the the Sookie Stackhouse Novels as well.

I'll have a look out for the rest though.


----------



## fantasy girl

Uncilvilized Serpent said:


> Tired? Trying to sound witty. God, I'm not sure! I have a headache jeez'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, how does Bella Cliff Diving mean she's trying to kill herself then?


 
She has no experiance, look at her age. You don't just decide to do this one day just like that :S[/QUOTE]

Again, if you read the books, you know she had organised to go with Jacob after seeing the Quillette Pack doing it. Jacob didn't turn up so she did ti herself. She didn't just decide to do it one day.


----------



## Ungood

PageOfCups said:


> I wonder when/if a moderator will jump in and tell everyone to stop fighting.



Maybe never.

I would recommend the Mortal Instruments series for you Fantasy Girl, you might like them.


----------



## PageOfCups

fantasy girl said:


> I tried reading Eragon, but couldn't get into it. The same with the Harry Potter Books.
> 
> I'm getting the Ann Rice books for Christmas, and i want to read the the Sookie Stackhouse Novels as well.
> 
> I'll have a look out for the rest though.


 
The Harry Potter books are actually very good, the first two are almost painful to read once you've read past the 4th one though, Rowlings writing just gets so much better over the series.

I keep meaning to read the Ann Rice books, but their popularity put me off. I don't tend to like what most people do, like Laurell K Hamilton books. I can't stand them but almost everyone on VF.com loves them to an almost scary level.

If you want any more recomendations, just ask and I'll have a rumage around my book shelf to see if there's anything else you might like.


----------



## moderan

fantasy girl said:


> Is it your place to say he doesn't know about guitars? No.



Yes. Because I do and I've had to correct his misapprehensions. People who _think_ they know what they're talking about are annoying as hell to those who do.



fantasy girl said:


> You read the first forty pages of the first book. Try read it again, the book gets better, and each book is better than the last.



I don't think so. It is execrable garbage unfit to wrap fish in. They'd have to get better because they couldn't get worse.




fantasy girl said:


> I ask then, if it's targeted at 14 year olds, why are there so many Twi-Mums/dads and middle aged readers?


Because stupid people breed. 





fantasy girl said:


> An unwashed lot who set of your dorkometer. Ouch. That hit home... Not. Do you really think I care about the insults you aimlessly throw around? You tried reading the books right, so therefore your a dork too.



Nope. I tried reading the books to be a good step-dad. Aimlessly? Looks to me like hit home. You missed a spot behind your ears when you washed.



fantasy girl said:


> Your arguing for the sake of arguing, not because you think it's right, not because of the crap SPaG and lack of character development. For the sake of arguing, thats it.



Partially, because I like shooting fish in a barrel, as said before. Seriously...you Twilight readers are clay pigeons. You have no discernible taste in literature and very little in the way of debating skills.
You've appointed yourself spokesperson here, Fantasy Girl. So tell me what's good about Twilight. And please, since I went to the trouble over and over to deal in facts only, tell me some facts.
You won't be able to find any. Your only objections are reactions to what you perceive as negative comments about a series of books you like.
You yourself admit, right there in glorious black and white, "crap SPaG and lack of character development" in Meyer's books. Why read it then? Plowing through amateurish fiction is a chore. Personally, I'd rather do the dishes or take out the garbage.


----------



## fantasy girl

Thanks POC, The Ann Rice books are meant to be really good. my whole family love them.


----------



## moderan

Ungood said:


> Yes you are. But don't forget that it's Just Your Opinion. My Opinion will be different and I expect you to respect that as you would like me to respect yours.



But you don't. See the number of quotes you've put up about fanboys and such. You want I should school you some more?
You adore generalizing, have very questionable debating skills, instead preferring to dwell in minutiae, apparently to lull your opponent to sleep, have shown ample evidence of a complete lack of literary acumen, and in general fit right in with the teenagers you are associating with.
If you don't want to trade barbs, don't deal them. It's that easy.
You've so far associated genre knowledge with pedantry, and respect for tradition as fanboy nonsense. Is it necessary that I quote from the previous series of posts?
People can complain about any piece of writing and likely have some good points to bring up.
Twilight and the associated books are easy targets because they're so very bad. There's a lot to point at. It's like comedians during the Dubya era-there's no lack of material.
I can't tell you not to consume the swill-I can only print the label and paste it on.
You have the right to remain ignorant. I suspect you'll exercise that right.


----------



## alanmt

JosephB said:


> Or folks could self-moderate -- run along and do something more productive. Maybe write something or offer a critique.


 
moderan and I have done so, inspired by this thread - experimental first drafts of our vampire work which is going to appear in the new anthology _Storm Shadows_, all about supernatural beings and teenage girls.  Please bop on over to the critique thread and tell us how we are doing.

I like the idea of sparkly vampires myself . . . thinking about wrapping slender porcelain sparkly Edward in my strong arms, my bulging biceps pressing his pale cool chest against my well-developed pecs . . . he's actually a lot older than me so its not like its inappropriate or anything . . . and I smell really good, so he should like that . . . .

Kinda reminds me of that one Fourth of July years ago that I spent with angelic Matt of the platinum hair and sparkly pink lip-gloss.


----------



## fantasy girl

JosephB said:


> Or folks could self-moderate -- run along and do something more productive. Maybe write something or offer a critique.



This is what I'm going to do. This has got really pathetic now. It started out as somebody asking whether to finish Twilight, and no has blown into a full blown argument.

Just get it into your thick skulls. IT'S JUST A BOOK. Some people will like it, some people wont. Thats just how life works.

Just drop it now, 'cause while arguing here we could be doing more productive things, like critiquing work, or writing.

I'm done now and don't want to fight any more.


----------



## moderan

I guess we've been told. In simple ungrammatical sentences.
Argument is fun when it's reasoned, and both sides have points to share. It is productive in many ways-one sharpens one's debating skills, learns how to express one's self more succinctly, sees how one's views get across to others, in short, communicates.
When it _isn't _friendly one gets to sharpen one's command of invective, perhaps walk the fine lines between irony, sarcasm, and sardonicism.
In an answer to the OP-no. It isn't worth opening, imo. And critiquing work is _exactly_ what I've been doing.
But hey! I can hold my thoughts for a day or so til this discussion comes around again.


----------



## Uncivilized Serpent

It's funny when young teenagers try to do the "mature" thing. I laughed.

​


----------



## JosephB

Uncilvilized Serpent said:


> It's funny when young teenagers try to do the "mature" thing. I laughed.



Try it some time.  Maybe we'll all get a good laugh.


----------



## moderan

Srsly?


----------



## Uncivilized Serpent

JosephB said:


> Try it some time. Maybe we'll all get a good laugh.


 

Haha I'm good, thanks.


----------



## fantasy girl

You guys are truely pathetic. You don't know when to drop it, do you. When a teenager does the mature thing, it's not something you laugh at, it's something that makes you feel ashamed and stupid, 'cause you're full grown men and should know better. I know I've done my share of the arguing here, but I'm done, I've said what I wanted to say and it's over, okay.

Some people may find this funny, a teenager doing the right thing, but then you really don't know me at all. Through my posts and things, I thought you would have realized, I am a mature person. Yes I can be argumentative, and yes I can be a bit gobby, but that is every teenager in the world. A teenager can do the right thing, and we can be mature. It's people like you who stereotype us all into one big group who give us a bad name because you're the adult and people listen to you, not us.

Go find someone you're own age to have an argument with because I'm sick of this crap.


----------



## Ungood

moderan said:


> But you don't. See the number of quotes you've put up about fanboys and such.



But you are a fan-boy because you are taking this way too seriously.

Now, before we go one post further, are you sure you want to "Trade Barbs" with me?


----------



## Ungood

fantasy girl said:


> Go find someone you're own age to have an argument with because I'm sick of this crap.



But adults like (Just like Mature teens) don't want to put up with their juvenile delinquency either.

Take this to heart FG, you are seeing first hand the quality of the *people* that are against Twilight and those that are for it. Maybe you are in the best seat for your own growth here to walk away and enjoy what you enjoy and take what they say with a grain of salt, after all, do you want to be like them?


----------



## JosephB

I love it when you take the high road. It's truly inspiring.


----------



## Ungood

JosephB said:


> I love it when you take the high road. It's truly inspiring.



beats the hell out of the path most everyone else on this topic has taken.


----------



## JosephB

Right.

Anyway, I'm going to start a "Hannah Montana -- Should I keep watching?" thread at some point today. So be on the lookout.


----------



## Ungood

JosephB said:


> Right.
> 
> Anyway, I'm going to start a "Hannah Montana -- Should I keep watching?" thread at some point today. So be on the lookout.



I see you're going to go the route you always go; childish and immature.


----------



## Like a Fox

Haha Ungood, did you by any chance fall in love with Edward?

I know I did. And I don't even like Edward much. (Although, for those who did like the series, I definitely recommend reading Midnight Sun. Just google it, it's a draft of some of a book she was writing that got leaked and never finished. She has it on her site now so her fans won't feel bad about reading it. It's Twilight from Edward's POV. Taken away from Bella's whining, I find it better than the rest of the series. And there's even a point where their union actually feels like a necessity. Like fate or destiny, which adds a little more depth to it than in any of the published series. Basically, Edward is a better character than Bella and it's more interesting coming from him. IMO.)

It was funny, there was a trend with a lot of my female friends, as they read the books they started arguing more and more with their boyfriends. It dawned on me eventually that they were all suffering the same problem. They had to remember that their boyfriend was not some sparkly old-worldly sexy vampire thing who is spew-ly romantic.

Stephenie Meyer has a lot to answer for, dragging so many into her little PG-porno fantasy world. Haha.


----------



## JosephB

Ungood said:


> I see you're going to go the route you always go; childish and immature.



Your first reply referencing South Park indicated you might have some sort of sense of humor. At least I was giving you points for trying. Oh well.


----------



## moderan

Ungood said:


> But you are a fan-boy because you are taking this way too seriously.


Pot, meet kettle. You really don't have a leg to stand on, Ungood. Your history is that you will argue with anyone about the small details of anything, and assume a superior position is yours when in fact it is not.
You say I am taking this seriously because I spend a good deal of time on this subject. That makes me a fanboy? You have a most peculiar set of definitions.
I can write authoritatively on the subject. I am a former member of the SFWA and the HWA, with published work in the genre. I'd say that puts me on the other side of the fanboy fence.





Ungood said:


> Now, before we go one post further, are you sure you want to "Trade Barbs" with me?



We could. I would much rather discuss something of substance but my invective supply is good.


----------



## Ungood

moderan said:


> Ungood said:
> 
> 
> 
> But you are a fan-boy because you are taking this way too seriously.
> 
> 
> 
> Pot, meet kettle ...(sic)... You say I am taking this seriously because I spend a good deal of time on this subject. That makes me a fanboy? You have a most peculiar set of definitions.
Click to expand...


Yah, in all earnest Mod, you are taking this way too seriously when you start attacking 14 year old girls because they like a _teen romance story_, you need to step back and reevaluate how serious or obsessed you are about this. I say that with the best of intentions.

back off and learn to chill out on this. I pick my fights, but I pick them with the people I think can take it and give it, I don't go "Shooting clay pidgins".


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## moderan

That's different than calling people "fanboys". Honestly, someone's age doesn't enter into my considerations. It's an adult site and an adult world. If one of my stepchildren were to complain about something like that, I'd laugh my ass off.
I will desist...however, it is because I was asked to, not in response to your missive.


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## Cefor

Yeah, I'm bored now.


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## fantasy girl

moderan said:


> It's an adult site and an adult world.



How is this an adult site? If it was, it would have an age limit or something. This is not an adult site, and I don't know what gave you that idea? When you register there is nothing saying this is an adult site, so don't go pulling that crap.


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## Sam

fantasy girl said:


> How is this an adult site? If it was, it would have an age limit or something. This is not an adult site, and I don't know what gave you that idea? When you register there is nothing saying this is an adult site, so don't go pulling that crap.



He meant that the vast majority of people on here are adults, which is true.


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## Uncivilized Serpent

Usually adults right their own stories and teens write, well...fanfictions. Not stereotyping but that is correct, I can't believe some of you guys are still arguing though.

Dunno' about the maturity thing though...I'm not mature (go ahead, make a joke) but I do know when to be mature...I don't think I have to be mature on a writing site...I save my maturity for funerals, family gatherings ( =[ ), church (if I went), and sometimes at the store.

I think it's bad when girls obsess over Edward, he's nothing special, they neglect their loving/REAL boyfriends for some kid with make-up on? Makes me sad.


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## fantasy girl

Sam, if that is what he meant, it's because of people like him scaring kids off by arguing with them over pathetic things like whether a book is good or not.


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## fantasy girl

Uncilvilized Serpent said:


> I think it's bad when girls obsess over Edward, he's nothing special, they neglect their loving/REAL boyfriends for some kid with make-up on? Makes me sad.



Have I said anything about obsessing over Edward?


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## Uncivilized Serpent

fantasy girl said:


> Have I said anything about obsessing over Edward?


 
Did I say your name? No, didn't think so. ;-) I didn't even think you had a boyfriend, so I wasn't talking about you.


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## Sam

fantasy girl said:
			
		

> Sam, if that is what he meant, it's because of people like him scaring kids off by arguing with them over pathetic things like whether a book is good or not.



It's just an opinion. He's entitled to it, as are you. _

Twilight, _for me, was a woeful novel. And I read the entire thing because I usually like vampire stories. I was a huge fan of _Buffy _and _Angel. _But Meyer's _Twilight _put me off that kind of thing for good, perhaps. I don't know. 

But, if it was a brilliant novel for you, I'm not going to argue with you. Nothing I say will change your mind, so it's pointless. 

But I do agree that when you get older, and start reading different literature, you will think that _Twilight _wasn't as great as you originally thought. Hey, that's life. I loved _The Hardy Boys _when I was growing up, but the novels are aimed towards young adults. Their writing has to be limited to accede to the demands of the target audience.


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## Uncivilized Serpent

fantasy girl said:


> I know I've done my share of the arguing here, but I'm done, I've said what I wanted to say and it's over, okay.


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## Uncivilized Serpent

fantasy girl said:


> I'm done now and don't want to fight any more.


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## alanmt

I hear Robert Pattinson stinks.


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## Ungood

Uncilvilized Serpent said:


> I think it's bad when girls obsess over Edward, he's nothing special, they neglect their loving/REAL boyfriends for some kid with make-up on? Makes me sad.



anything you want share, you keep bring this up.


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## Ungood

moderan said:


> That's different than calling people "fanboys".



Fan-Boy.


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## Uncivilized Serpent

^ Aru...?


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## JosephB

Ungood said:


> anything you want share, you keep bring this up.



I didn't know you spoke Chinese.


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## caelum




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## Sam

wolfe:) said:


> How can you say that about the series? Twilight is one of the best books/series ever written. You can't appreciate it if you have only read 10 pages for a start, you have to at least read the first two chapters before you can make a judgement. Although there are a lot of them around, it is a romeo and juliet story and trust me, it is a lot better than the original.



This is one of the funniest, most ignorant comments I've read in years. Let me ask you something: Have you ever read Shakespeare's _Romeo and Juliet? _To say that Stephanie I-don't-know-how-to-write Meyer is even in the same stratosphere as a man considered by _millions _to be the best writer in the history of the English language, is an absolute joke. And I pity you if you think that way. 



> You cannot possibly say that Meyer is a shit writer due to all the success she has had based on the books and now the movies.


Success does not define a good writer. There are best-selling novels that aren't fit to be used as bog roll. _Twilight _is one of them. It's a best-seller because thousands of emo teens (female mostly) want to fantasise about being with Edward. How pathetic is _that? _



> Twilight is worth reading and there are millions who would agree with me.


And I'd say those millions don't know what good writing is. Of the people in this thread who hate _Twilight_, I'm probably the only one who's fully read the first book -- just to see if it got any better towards the end. And, to be quite honest, it got worse.


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## caelum

awrthap0g9vuy[0a8rt490551q9035tokagl;dfhhqraetjartk


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## JoshuaGaler

I am absolutely sorry to say that I don't like books. I watch movies and never every leave any movie which specially came in my mind. I was suggested by my sister to read the first book, I started reading the book and get hooked up with the book. I don't know how this happens. Now I am desperate to complete all four as soon as possible.


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## S1E9A8N5

When I saw the trailer for the first movie, I decided to read the first book.  I genuinely enjoyed it.  The second one however lost me with all the Jacob stuff but it translated better to the movie for me.  So I only enjoyed the beginning and end of the book.  Half way through the third, I stopped reading.  I decided I'd rather watch the movie than read it.  The first and second movie was pretty good but the CGI werewolves took me out of it.  Other than that, they were decent.  Didn't care for the third.  I am looking forward to the fourth (& fifth) movie though since I haven't read the fourth book.  I do think the movies would have worked better if they combined the books and made one sequel or made it a trilogy. Dragging it out just really shows how mediocre the story and books are.


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## Luckystars1987

I liked the books, not the best reading material I have ever picked up but they let me just drift off into my mind without having to overthink (which is nice sometimes as I am a chronic over-thinker most of the time).
If you're not enjoying it after the first 100 pages just stop, it will end up feeling like a chore and every time you pick it up your mind will sigh, here we go again! I've had this with a couple of authors that people have recommended to me and I just could not get into them.


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## walgurl

I did enjoy the books. They're what I like to think of as lunch hour reading. Great in the breakroom at work but I didn't need to read them five hours straight after I got home work. The romance aspect of the books has always been heightened to almost parody like proportions but if memory serves b/c I haven't read it in a few years but didn't _Romeo & Juliet _take place over the course of several days and have the title characters meet, fall in love, marry, consumate marriage, and commit suicide all while unraveling two warring families and fair Verona?

And to be clear, yes Shakesphere is a superior writer to Stephaine Meyers, and I bet the author would tell you that herself, and _Romeo & Juliet_ has more literary value than Twilight. But all fiction books exist in a heightened reality to some degree and I don't think Twilight should be bashed solely on the basis of the romance plotlines.

Just my opinion. To each their own.


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## Hawke

Rest assured, Twilight _isn't_ bashed solely on the basis of the romance plot lines. There's plenty to bash, the lousy writing being one among many.


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## mephet

Twilight? It's shit. Plain and simple.
 The grammar is awful _(misusing words, sentence fragments, badly used commas, horrible sentence structures...)_, the prose is urple _("-his scillianting arms-" what kid talks like this?!)_, the characters are stereotypical _(the teens, the Cullens, the natives...) _and shallow at best _(the main romance is based around looks and smells)_, plain evil at worst _(Lemme see... Bella Swan -shrugs away the deaths of hundreds at the hands of her loved one, mercilessly strings as much as three guys along at once-, Edward Cullen -killer of hundreds with no remorse, abusive and obsessive-, Carlisle -turns several people into undead monsters [that might very well end up roasting in hell for all he knows] against their will instead of letting them die at peace-, Esme -rejoicing in the fact that her "son" might end up killing an innocent girl as long as Esme knows he isn't gay-...)_, the plot is nonexistent for the first 200+ pages, the romance is shallow & unrealistic and the factual inaccuracies are near unbelievable. [/rant] Sorry about that, it's just... There's too much wrong in these books for me to explain them all in one message.  I'll shut up about it now, I know this discussion has gotten too big. Short answer to anyone asking whether or not to read twilight? It's not worth it. You can check out the masses of recaps and snarkings done of it though, those are great for laughs and explain my points in more detail...
All around, I can't say I wish it hadn't been published: it's the perfect example of what not to do. Some people have pointed out in this thread that we should let it go, and sure, they're right: it's just a book. What I disagree on is whether or not these arguments are productive. As I said, Twilight is the perfect example of bad, unlikable characters and poor storytelling, as well as bad writing in general - it's worth studying and learning about, since by understanding what Meyer did wrong (and right: let's face it, she did make it into a franchise) we can avoid making the same mistakes ourselves.


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## Split_Infinity

No surprise that this thread has a ton of replies.

I approached Twilight with a fairly open mind and didn't read it carefully, practically skimmed it, and was therefore able to say I didn't mind the first three books. I certainly didn't see why everyone and their mother (literally) had gone absolutely off their rockers about it, but I didn't _hate_ them. However, the last book, as aptly described by my friend, is "crack fic." Really dreadful. Really, really dreadful. And, upon closer inspection, I did find that all the books are positively riddled with errors of all kinds. If you're really bored, go for it, but I would definitely recommend Jane Eyre over Twilight.


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## Forest Girl

wolfe:) said:


> ... Although there are a lot of them around, it is a romeo and juliet story and trust me, it is a lot better than the original ...



Shakespeare didn't write romance. 

He wrote tragedies, comedies, and histories. 

Romeo & Juliet was a tragedy. The point of the story was how the two feuding families brought about so many unnecessary deaths. 

I love Shakespeare. 

However, I have never looked at Romeo & Juliet as a love story. In fact, to me, the young couple (like Edward and Bella) had an unhealthy and obsessive relationship ... which I suppose, combined with the drama, would explain its appeal.


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## Rustgold

Split_Infinity said:


> I approached Twilight with a fairly open mind and didn't read it carefully, practically skimmed it, and was therefore able to say I didn't mind the first three books. I certainly didn't see why everyone and their mother (literally) had gone absolutely off their rockers about it, but I didn't _hate_ them. However, the last book, as aptly described by my friend, is "crack fic." Really dreadful. Really, really dreadful. And, upon closer inspection, I did find that all the books are positively riddled with errors of all kinds. If you're really bored, go for it, but I would definitely recommend Jane Eyre over Twilight.


Read it when ill in bed.  First three books were a bit ditzy dumb, but tolerable (for someone with nothing better to do).  The last book was off the planet stupid.  It seems to be the trend though.  I rather wonder whether its a case that nobody in the industry gives a damn about the final product.  All of the popular books in recent times seems to have major basic faults; from growing moronically stupid plots, to non-individualization of characters.
But I guess that those things are of little importance on the bookshelves.


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## Prinkes

Keep reading. Finish the book, even the series if you can stomach it. That way, when debating with someone about why you don't like it, they can't fire off "Well you didn't even read the books!" Ignorance is not the way to go. 

I read all of them and managed to survive. Actually the beginning of "New Moon" is _decent_. Not fantastic, but tolerable. And then it gets all retarded in the end. 

I simply prefer not to be ignorant, but that's my choice. Do whatever you like. The best part about bad books is that you _can walk away!_


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## SAPorcher

Out of all the "Twilight" series, I personally thought the first one was the best, and I still disliked it. I think it was Meyer's style that threw me. It's up to you to keep reading, but I wish I hadn't. I didn't really gain anything from completing the series.


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## Jinxi

Wow. I have read through this entire thread on and off between work since this morning and am amazed at some of the comments. It was like reading the script for a soapie. 

I must be honest, I enjoyed all four of the books and the movies. I didn't read the books with an eye for detail - I read them simply as something to read and take my mind off of my daily pressures. I enjoyed breaking away into someone else's chaotic, insane world. Yes, the relationship between Edward and Bella is unhealthy to say the very least. Bella's ignorance, whining and her untruthfulness toward her family is a shocking message to be sending out to the younger generations who are reading it, but it is simply a book. I bought all 3 movies when they came out on Blu-Ray and still enjoy them. Not because of the sparkly vampires - that made me chuckle from deep within my core, but as something to watch that has pretty cool graphics and absolutely nothing to think about. They are great to watch when you get home from a crappy day at work and want to watch something, anything while enjoying a glass of red wine. If my boyfriend's kids ask me when they are older if they can watch the movies or read the books I will most definitely say yes. Why stop them just because the writing style is not up to standard? I will point out, once they have read it and formed their own opinions, that Stephanie's writing is not really very good and suggest they read something like Jane Eyre afterwards to illustrate the difference.

Stephanie Meyer came up with something new and challenged those who believe in the way vampires have been depicted in the past. For those of you who are ranting on about it - she has in fact won because she is getting the reaction she was looking for. I am aware that there are some very strongly opinionated people who have either liked or disliked this book, but it is certainly not worth about 100 angry posts on a forum that is generally very friendly.  As with everything in life - each to their own.


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## Pariah

I will not say if the book is good or bad but I will ask...why read a book that doesn't grip you?  Especially when there are so many great books out there.

In other words...Why waste your time on mediocrity when excellence is at hand?


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## Rob

If you find yourself asking whether you should continue reading a book, you should probably drop it. Sure, you might end up putting something down that could have gripped you twenty pages further in, but so what? The book has already failed you, and there are plenty of other books out there to read instead.

That's not a reflection on whether the book is 'good' or 'bad'. We don't all share the same reading experience.

Whatever people may think about Twilight and how well it was written, what can't be argued with is that it's been a massive commercial success. Publishing is a business. People are in the business to make money. Twilight did that better than most.


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## sir_vile_minds

I picked up one of the books in my uni bookshop and got about 60 pages before moving onto something real. The book was dire and seriously, sparkly, loving vampires which go out in daylight? I'd rather read Goosebumps books...


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## BabaYaga

sir_vile_minds said:


> I picked up one of the books in my uni bookshop and got about 60 pages before moving onto something real. The book was dire and seriously, sparkly, loving vampires which go out in daylight? I'd rather read Goosebumps books...



Goosebumps were AWESOME. 

I'll go so far as to say that I think R.L Stine could also kick Stephanie Meyers butt in a pen fight.


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## sir_vile_minds

BabaYaga said:


> Goosebumps were AWESOME.
> 
> I'll go so far as to say that I think R.L Stine could also kick Stephanie Meyers butt in a pen fight.



Indeed they were. And yes, he could. However, looking back at it and reading reviews on bloggerbeware.com (not my site), I now realise how terrible to plots really were. Goosebumps did get me into horror and thriller though, so I have something to thank Stine for.


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## BabaYaga

I must go see those reviews, it has been ages since I read an RL Stine book, so perhaps my memory is a little rose-tinted. But yes, they were my first underage foray into horror fiction as well- and a welcome change from the Sweet Valley High or Nancy Drew novels* that my peers were reading. 

*Still better than Twilight ;P


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## sir_vile_minds

BabaYaga said:


> I must go see those reviews, it has been ages since I read an RL Stine book, so perhaps my memory is a little rose-tinted. But yes, they were my first underage foray into horror fiction as well- and a welcome change from the Sweet Valley High or Nancy Drew novels* that my peers were reading.
> 
> *Still better than Twilight ;P



They're a good read and always amusing. Good for killing some time. I was the same, although from what I remembered, some of the stories were pretty dodgy. i.e. a boy gets knocked out during some sort of ambush and has a dream about turning into a gangster. I loved that one but now can't find the title of it 

I never did read Nancy Drew or Sweet Valley High. I was more Enid Blyton before I discovered Goosebumps.


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