# Self-doubt



## nikkiwall (Mar 24, 2011)

Hello everyone!

I am approaching the final chapters of my first novel and find myself suddenly riddled with self-doubt about my ability as a writer. I know what an incredibly competetive and tough market the publishing world is, and lately my head is flooded with questions and fears about my work not being good enough. I find myself constantly comparing my work with others, asking myself if mine is as good as theirs. But of course that doesn't help, obviously my work is different because it is _mine,_ so how can I convince myself it's as good? It doesn't help that everyone around me doesn't understand my passion for writing, or have any enthusiasm for reading books, some have even laughed at the idea of me writing a novel or looked at me like I was joking!

When I read over and edit my work I feel so proud of it, and it almost seems like it has been written someone else, someone brilliant! I suppose I am asking if sel-doubt is a natural part of writing, or if I was truly good at my craft should I be filled with confidence from the start?

I may well be asking an impossible question, especially as none of you have seen my writing. This just seems like a hurdle I am struggling to overcome lately and hope someone has any advice or encouragement for me, or at least tell me that this is normal!! In fact, I think the true dilemma is that I love my work, I am devoted to the story and attatched to the characters, but is this because I am biased? 

Thanks for reading and sorry if I've rambled on with myself (unfortunately, I have a tendancy to do that a lot!)

Nikki x


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## Sam (Mar 24, 2011)

Hi, Nikki. No, self-doubt is very prevalent in writers. We tend to be perfectionists. I started a thread a while back about this very topic. Maybe it will give you a little insight or make you less apprehensive. You can find it here: http://www.writingforums.com/writing-discussion/118122-few-writing-thoughts.html

What I will say is this: Don't be afraid. So many writers cripple themselves with the fear of thinking their work must be perfect. It's an oft-sought goal but it's very close to impossible to perfect writing. There will always be room for improvement or areas that could use strengthening. Just write. Don't worry about publication, or those people who mock you, or anything else like that. Pay no heed to them. Yes, the industry is tough. It takes serious dedication and commitment to even write a novel, much less go about getting it published. Take my advice and don't put the cart before the horse. Get your novel written. Enjoy it. Savour it. Do not worry about whether it's good enough for publication. I'll be blunt and honest when I say that most first novels aren't. It takes time to hone your craft. I'm working on novel number ten, and it's only the last two which I've sought publication for. 

The most important thing is: Don't doubt yourself and don't be afraid to make mistakes. This isn't brain surgery. One screw-up will not kill someone. It'll just make you a better writer.  

Good luck.


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## nikkiwall (Mar 24, 2011)

Thanks so much for your reply. The link to your thread has helped a lot. I think it's a simple case of me getting too far ahead with myself, and a desire to want other people to love my work as much as do (as I'm sure every writer does).  I am indeed a perfectionist in everything I do and sometimes this can prove quite detrimental! I think it perhaps stems from the lack of interest from people around me. Not because my writing is poor, but because I don't know anyone who holds any interest in literature, I have no idea where I get it from! I know the only way to discover how good my work actually is, is to have people read and critique it. This is why I'm so glad I came across this forum.

Thanks again for your advice

Nikki


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## Bilston Blue (Mar 24, 2011)

nikkiwall said:


> I know the only way to discover how good my work actually is, is to have people read and critique it. This is why I'm so glad I came across this forum.
> Nikki



Hi Nikki, and welcome to the forum.

Before I came across this site I'd managed to enter a couple of stories in competitions, and my wife had read one or two, but I'd shudder at the thought of letting someone else read it, someone I knew. 

I've found there are many people who use this forum, all of differing standards, who have something positive to offer in the way of constructive criticism. People may well read your work and take from it something they can learn. And it is always necessary for someone to read your work who is not attached to it, and give an unbiased opinion.

Read the work of others too, you can always learn from reading, and by leaving feedback and comments on work of others they may be encouraged to read your work. 

Good luck with the forum, and the novel too.

Scott.


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## Slugfly (Mar 26, 2011)

lol!    I know the feeling.  A novel is a heavier weight of doubt than a short-story, my current trend, but I know the feeling.  I think this is like when kids first leave home.  When I was old enough to leave home, my parents were nervous about seeing me go.  This is obvious, but translate it to writing.  They had been tending to a work in progress for a long time.  They had invested a great amount of energy, resources and love into this project.  The time came that the work was required to stand up on its own merit, without the support of that which made it.  I was no longer editable.  Typos, continuity errors and plot holes packed up a dozen boxes and went off to college, and in the long run they made out just fine.  Is it good enough?  Yes it is.  The fact that you have seen it through to the end testifies to that.

While you were writing, you felt good about it.  Otherwise, you'd have stopped.  Now that you're near finished, you're nervous to send it out alone, but you trusted it once.  Displace your nervousness by one step.  You once trusted this.  Now, don't think of the novel, think of yourself and your tastes.  You once trusted it.  If you trust yourself, then you already trust the work.


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## caelum (Mar 26, 2011)

I think self-doubt is healthy.  I heard something once that went, it's usually the people who are completely confident, who have the utmost faith in what they're doing or how well they're doing it, that wind up the most off base.  Maybe because believing you're already there takes away your drive to do better, takes away looking at your work in a critical, objective way.

Although I don't think liking your own stuff is biased—sometimes taking a look at your own stuff you can't help but admit it's pretty dec—I do think there's a dangerous way of thinking here that should be avoided, which is: I came up with it, therefore it's good.  I swear this is the way people think sometimes when they let themselves get away with sub-par stories, sub-par sentences, sub-par names.  I think a trick is to realize that _some_ of the stuff we come up with is good, but a lot isn't, and then the challenge is weeding out the weaker material, admitting when something we make is weak.


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## Candra H (Mar 28, 2011)

Sam W said:


> Hi, Nikki. No, self-doubt is very prevalent in writers. We tend to be perfectionists. I started a thread a while back about this very topic. Maybe it will give you a little insight or make you less apprehensive. You can find it here: http://www.writingforums.com/writing-discussion/118122-few-writing-thoughts.html
> 
> Do not worry about whether it's good enough for publication. I'll be blunt and honest when I say that most first novels aren't. It takes time to hone your craft. I'm working on novel number ten, and it's only the last two which I've sought publication for.


 
I don't know about perfectionism. Maybe more a case of being capable of recognising the flaws in the work and taking appropriate steps to fix them. I included the link to that other thread because, isnt it about writer's block, which is different from self doubt?

Re the second para. I seem to be hearing that kind of thing a lot suddenly. That writers' first novels arent good enough for publication and that they need to churn out a million words of drivel before getting to the good stuff. Don't know about that either. It sounds suspiciously like more of the same internet advice people give when they're trying to defend why it's taken _them_ so long to produce something "publishable". But, isnt it all relative? One person may take a million words to get the hang of writing while another may only take a few short stories.



caelum said:


> I think self-doubt is healthy. I heard something once that went, it's usually the people who are completely confident, who have the utmost faith in what they're doing or how well they're doing it, that wind up the most off base. Maybe because believing you're already there takes away your drive to do better, takes away looking at your work in a critical, objective way.


 
Agreed. That old adage comes to mind; if you have to shout about it, chances are you havent got it to shout about in the first place. I've always found the best writing comes from those who keep their mouths shut, do the work, and let their writing speak for itself.


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## Sam (Mar 28, 2011)

Candra H said:


> I don't know about perfectionism. Maybe more a case of being capable of recognising the flaws in the work and taking appropriate steps to fix them. I included the link to that other thread because, isnt it about writer's block, which is different from self doubt?



It isn't about writer's block. It's about fear. To be more specific: Not being afraid to make mistakes and learn from them. If that's not recognising flaws, I don't know what is. 



> Re the second para. I seem to be hearing that kind of thing a lot suddenly. That writers' first novels arent good enough for publication and that they need to churn out a million words of drivel before getting to the good stuff. Don't know about that either. It sounds suspiciously like more of the same internet advice people give when they're trying to defend why it's taken _them_ so long to produce something "publishable". But, isnt it all relative? One person may take a million words to get the hang of writing while another may only take a few short stories.


I could have tried to publish my first novel, but I enjoyed writing too much at that point to worry about publication. For me, it was never about that. I started writing because I was in a dark place after my sister died and it provided a cathartic outlet. I won't lie and say my first novel is as good as my current one, because the truth is that it isn't. With a good edit I could ready it for publication, though. Again, it's not about that. It's about getting your writing to its peak. Knowing your writing, Candra, you could do it with your first novel. I know that. As I said in that thread, it differs for everyone. You've alluded to that. I just got on a roll where I kept banging out novels because I loved the challenge of starting a new one. Whereas other people might spend that time editing, I decided that it would be best for me to write. 

That thread was all about being afraid of work needing to be perfect first time out. All I was saying was to be unafraid of writing a poor first novel; to think of it as a learning curve.


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## Candra H (Mar 28, 2011)

Well, thats cool, Sam, but I'm not really talking about you or me as people. I'm just curious about why you keep saying things like this - 



> Do not worry about whether it's good enough for publication. I'll be blunt and honest when I say that most first novels aren't.


 
How do you know most first novels arent good enough for publication? That kind of generalisation is what I'm curious about. No big deal.


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## khobar (Mar 28, 2011)

caelum said:


> I think self-doubt is healthy.  I heard something once that went, it's usually the people who are completely confident, who have the utmost faith in what they're doing or how well they're doing it, that wind up the most off base.  Maybe because believing you're already there takes away your drive to do better, takes away looking at your work in a critical, objective way.
> 
> Although I don't think liking your own stuff is biased—sometimes taking a look at your own stuff you can't help but admit it's pretty dec—I do think there's a dangerous way of thinking here that should be avoided, which is: I came up with it, therefore it's good.  I swear this is the way people think sometimes when they let themselves get away with sub-par stories, sub-par sentences, sub-par names.  I think a trick is to realize that _some_ of the stuff we come up with is good, but a lot isn't, and then the challenge is weeding out the weaker material, admitting when something we make is weak.


 
You're confusing confidence with conceit - they are two very different things.


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## daisydaisy (Mar 31, 2011)

Self doubt is completely normal, but just stop for a moment and look at what you've achieved. You've almost finished writing a whole book - I'm sure there are many many people on here who would be envious of that. It's not easy, and you've done a great job to get where you have. Allow yourself some time, grow a little confidence - you can do it!


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## Bad Craziness (Mar 31, 2011)

caelum said:


> I think self-doubt is healthy.  I heard something once that went, it's usually the people who are completely confident, who have the utmost faith in what they're doing or how well they're doing it, that wind up the most off base.  Maybe because believing you're already there takes away your drive to do better, takes away looking at your work in a critical, objective way.



I think that this is interesting because I agree with you somewhat, that you shouldn't ever lose the ability to critique and think "how could my work be better?" but at the other end of that I believe that when the product is finished, you should be completely confident in the piece of work that you've created. If as the creator, you're not completely confident that it is the best piece of work that it can be, why would anyone bother to publish/ buy/ read it?


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## EarnestProcrastinator (Apr 1, 2011)

Nikki, my opinion is that it's somewhat dependent on the individual. Some people are naturally, supremely confident, never second-guess themselves, and are perpetually assured of their own success. Others are completely, utterly filled with self-doubt, and incapable of ever expecting anything but failure from their efforts. Most of us are neither - we have natural tendencies towards both confidence and doubt in various areas, hopefully bearing at least a loose correlation to our actual abilities. As long as you keep yourself grounded with the knowledge that your natural confidence or doubt may be off-base (and thus have the confidence to keep working and the humility to deal with setbacks in a healthy manner) you should be golden, except in extreme cases.

Bad Craziness, I wouldn't go so far as to say that you should always be supremely confident that your completed works are in their best possible state -- there are things like deadlines, after all, and often one work has the potential to develop in more than one fashion, all of which could be considered "best" for various reasons -- but I would agree absolutely that projecting such an attitude to everyone you're trying to persuade to read/represent/publish/buy the work is crucial!


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## JosephB (Apr 1, 2011)

Candra H said:


> I don't know about perfectionism. Maybe more a case of being capable of recognising the flaws in the work and taking appropriate steps to fix them.



That's what it's about. The ability to evaluate your own work, knowing how to make it better -- and knowing when to stop -- is just part of what makes up writing talent. 

I don't think anyone can tell anyone else how this is done. It's something a writer -- anyone really -- will learn or come to recognize on his own. Or not.


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## Candra H (Apr 1, 2011)

khobar said:


> You're confusing confidence with conceit - they are two very different things.


 
When you cross the line from confidence into over-confidence, you're into the realm of conceit, which is what Caelum was talking about in his second paragraph.

I also noticed a couple of others mentioning extremes above - that people are either supremely confident or completely unconfident, and that people should always believe their work is the best it can be when it's finished. I think the reality is a lot more complex than that and there are endless grades of confidence and belief in a piece of work. 



JosephB said:


> That's what it's about. The ability to evaluate your own work, knowing how to make it better -- and knowing when to stop -- is just part of what makes up writing talent.
> 
> I don't think anyone can tell anyone else how this is done. It's something a writer -- anyone really -- will learn or come to recognize on his own. Or not.


 
Which pretty much covers it.


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## khobar (Apr 1, 2011)

Candra H said:


> When you cross the line from confidence into over-confidence, you're into the realm of conceit, which is what Caelum was talking about in his second paragraph.
> 
> I also noticed a couple of others mentioning extremes above - that people are either supremely confident or completely unconfident, and that people should always believe their work is the best it can be when it's finished. I think the reality is a lot more complex than that and there are endless grades of confidence and belief in a piece of work.
> 
> ...


 
Caelum asserted self-doubt is healthy because being conceited is a bad thing, and that's a logical fallacy because, as you acknowledge, there are "endless grades of confidence." Even the OP isn't "completely unconfident" - she has a simple case of jitters which is why she's here asking for help. 

There's a difference in being confident that one's work is the best it can be and the best one can make it, and at some point every writer who wants to be published, whether they have doubts about their work or all the confidence in the world, will have to face the reality of someone else's opinion. 

It's useful to know that there isn't some set standard that once you meet it you're automatically published. One could have the best manuscript ever and be told it's a load of crap. What you do then is your choice. If you have confidence in your work, you evaluate the rejection and move on. If you have doubts, you quit and find another line of work. It's that simple.


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## khobar (Apr 1, 2011)

JosephB said:


> That's what it's about. The ability to evaluate your own work, knowing how to make it better -- and knowing when to stop -- is just part of what makes up writing talent.


 
Talent is something you have already. Confidence is something you acquire over time. The ability to evaluate your own work, knowing how and _when_ to make it better, and knowing when to stop all come with experience, as you point out. 

And while no one can tell someone else exactly how it's done, we can share at least the basics the same way a music teacher teaches a person to play an instrument. Lots of practice playing other people's music. Does that mean all persons who practice the piano, for example, will play equally well? Nope, of course not.They won't even necessarily play the same music the same way, hence "style". I believe that's why you can't just tell another person how to do it.

My two cents anyway.


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## caelum (Apr 1, 2011)

Candra H said:


> I also noticed a couple of others mentioning extremes above - that people are either supremely confident or completely unconfident, and that people should always believe their work is the best it can be when it's finished. I think the reality is a lot more complex than that and there are endless grades of confidence and belief in a piece of work.



Yeah, I agree that you can't really break someone's confidence down into simple terms.  There are endless shades of gray.



			
				khobar said:
			
		

> Caelum asserted self-doubt is healthy because being conceited is a bad thing, and that's a logical fallacy because, as you acknowledge, there are "endless grades of confidence." Even the OP isn't "completely unconfident" - she has a simple case of jitters which is why she's here asking for help.


That's not what I was saying.  I said that self-doubt is healthy because it makes us look at our work realistically and critically, and that not having that doubt can be a negative when you're so doubtless you lose the ability to assess yourself realistically, when you become delusional.

Case in point: American Idol contestants who storm in they're thinking they're the next big thing, _sincerely_ believe they're the next idol, when to all ears they sound like the screams of a baby seal.  Have you ever heard a baby seal scream?  Well let me tell you something.  It ain't pretty.

Confidence is not delusional when it's merited, such as in the case of Clay Aiken who said, "I'm the next idol," and actually was the next idol.


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## khobar (Apr 1, 2011)

caelum said:


> That's not what I was saying.  I said that self-doubt is healthy because it makes us look at our work realistically and critically, and that not having that doubt can be a negative when you're so doubtless you lose the ability to assess yourself realistically, when you become delusional.
> 
> Case in point: American Idol contestants who storm in they're thinking they're the next big thing, _sincerely_ believe they're the next idol, when to all ears they sound like the screams of a baby seal.  Have you ever heard a baby seal scream?  Well let me tell you something.  It ain't pretty.
> 
> Confidence is not delusional when it's merited, such as in the case of Clay Aiken who said, "I'm the next idol," and actually was the next idol.



Now you're comparing self-doubt and being "so doubtless that you lose the ability to assess yourself realistically, when you become delusional." 

Why limit yourself to just those two choices? Why not just settle for something between self-doubt and delusion? 

American Idol is a popularity contest. As such the rules are slightly different.


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## JosephB (Apr 2, 2011)

khobar said:


> And while no one can tell someone else exactly how it's done, we can share at least the basics the same way a music teacher teaches a person to play an instrument.



I think it's more like a bunch of students talking, just going on and on about playing an instrument in general terms -- or what it's like to play an instrument.


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## khobar (Apr 2, 2011)

JosephB said:


> I think it's more like a bunch of students talking, just going on and on about playing an instrument in general terms -- or what it's like to play an instrument.


 
Some of the students know how to read music, some can actually play, and I dare say some might even have performed in front of a paying audience.


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## JosephB (Apr 2, 2011)

khobar said:


> Some of the students know how to read music, some can actually play, and I dare say some might even have performed in front of a paying audience.



Heh. Well, note I said in general terms. So to continue your analogy, this is more like a music student saying, "Oh, I'm having doubts. I just don't know if I'm good enough." And then others -- who may or may not be able to play -- offering advice and going on about whether or not it's good thing in various side-discussions without ever having heard so much as a note from the doubtful student. If you think that has some value -- well fine, I guess. Now, if the students are listening to each other play and offering practical advice about technique or whatever -- that's something different. 

I think the OP said it best:



nikkiwall said:


> I may well be asking an impossible question, especially as none of you have seen my writing.


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## khobar (Apr 2, 2011)

JosephB said:


> Heh. Well, note I said in general terms. So to continue your analogy, this is more like a music student saying, "Oh, I'm having doubts. I just don't know if I'm good enough." And then others -- who may or may not be able to play -- offering advice and going on about whether or not it's good thing in various side-discussions without ever having heard so much as a note from the doubtful student. If you think that has some value -- well fine, I guess. Now, if the students are listening to each other play and offering practical advice about technique or whatever -- that's something different.
> 
> I think the OP said it best:



As far as I know, no one has even tried to comment on her actual writing or abilities, as it's not necessary. 

All that's important here is her self-doubt which, according to her, is holding her back. She needs to gain the confidence to move to the next level - finish the book and get feedback/critiqued.


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## JosephB (Apr 2, 2011)

khobar said:


> As far as I know, no one has even tried to comment on her actual writing or abilities, as it's not necessary.



I would hope not, since she hasn't provided any samples. My point is, most discussions about writing that don't reference specific examples are almost always so vague and involve so much generalizing that they're seldom of any value. Especially when they're about the process of writing or getting it done. This one doesn't seem to be any different.


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## khobar (Apr 2, 2011)

JosephB said:


> I would hope not, since she hasn't provided any samples. My point is, most discussions about writing that don't reference specific examples are almost always so vague and involve so much generalizing that they're seldom of any value. Especially when they're about the process of writing or getting it done. This one doesn't seem to be any different.


 
The OP asked a specific question and needs a specific answer. No vagueness, generalizations, writing samples required.

She needs to get over the self-doubt and get her book finished. She's very enthusiastic about it, even referring to the writing as "brilliant". Maybe it is, or maybe it could be with some help, or maybe it's just unsalvageable crap, but no one - including her - will ever know unless she overcomes what's stopping her. It really is that simple.


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## JosephB (Apr 2, 2011)

If someone wants to commiserate or get a virtual pat on the shoulder, well, fine.  But there's really no way to comment on something like a writer's self-doubt issues with anything other than generalities. And that's pretty much what you see here. Self-doubt is healthy. Too much confidence isn't good. Most first novels are crap. Stuff about American Idol and music teachers etc. She might need a "specific" answer, but I can't imagine what it would be.

No one should take this personally. Suppose I was having problems with self-doubt and one of my favorite authors, John Steinbeck, rose from the grave to offer advice. He might say, "Everyone has doubts. Keep at it, kid." Or something like that. Just because it came from Steinbeck wouldn't really give it any more weight when taken at face value. Now if he'd read my work and then offered the same advice, that would be different. Then it would actually mean something.


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## ThreadWhisperer (Apr 2, 2011)

_"When I read over and edit my work I feel so proud of it, and it almost seems like it has been written someone else, someone brilliant! I suppose I am asking if sel-doubt is a natural part of writing, or if I was truly good at my craft should I be filled with confidence from the start?"_

Being truly good at writing means knowing that no matter what you write, it will enrage some, please others, and not matter in the least to the rest. There are also all those that fall in-between the three. When you know that, it gives you the freedom to express your imagination in a way that pleases you, which typically gives it a better chance of being accepted by others. The fact that you are proud of what you have written should be enough to tell you you are on the right track, at least in subject matter, technical aspects cannot be judged by feelings.

_" In fact, I think the true dilemma is that I love my work, I am devoted to the story and attatched to the characters, but is this because I am biased? "_

Of course you are biased and connected to the story, you are putting your imagination down in such a way that it can be seen by others, and very likely you want them to see it as you do. I have never met a passionate writer yet that was not biased toward their own work. Just remember to temper that bias with the knowledge of those who will like it, those who will hate it, and those who won't care one bit. Express your vision of the story your way, and in a readable,technically sound way, and your passion for it will pass into those readers who like it.

Just my own thoughts on the matter and yes they are general in nature but as you yourself stated, without having your work as a reference point what more can anyone give. Hopefully all of the advice given, and conversation had, about the topic will help to balance your feelings on this so you can get back to having fun in finishing the story. 

All the best,
TW


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## khobar (Apr 2, 2011)

JosephB said:


> If someone wants to commiserate or get a virtual pat on the shoulder, well, fine.  But there's really no way to comment on something like a writer's self-doubt issues with anything other than generalities. And that's pretty much what you see here. Self-doubt is healthy. Too much confidence isn't good. Most first novels are crap. Stuff about American Idol and music teachers etc. She might need a "specific" answer, but I can't imagine what it would be.
> 
> No one should take this personally. Suppose I was having problems with self-doubt and one of my favorite authors, John Steinbeck, rose from the grave to offer advice. He might say, "Everyone has doubts. Keep at it, kid." Or something like that. Just because it came from Steinbeck wouldn't really give it any more weight when taken at face value. Now if he'd read my work and then offered the same advice, that would be different. Then it would actually mean something.


 
Of course everyone has doubts, and there are seemingly infinite quotes regarding how one should consider them. 

The specific answer is simple and clear - she must put aside her self-doubt so she can move on. She can finish her book and submit portions for critique, or she can leave it unfinished for now and submit portions for critique. Either way she must take that crucial step. 

If someone tells you to keep at it and you question the worth of the advice, ask yourself, "what have I got to lose" before deciding the advice must be bad because "how would they know when they've not read anything I've written." In your example as it applies, Steinbeck would never get the chance to read your work, thus could never say "keep at it" with the meaning you'd require to act, thus you'd be pretty much screwed as a writer.


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## khobar (Apr 2, 2011)

ThreadWhisperer said:


> _"When I read over and edit my work I feel so proud of it, and it almost seems like it has been written someone else, someone brilliant! I suppose I am asking if sel-doubt is a natural part of writing, or if I was truly good at my craft should I be filled with confidence from the start?"_
> 
> Being truly good at writing means knowing that no matter what you write, it will enrage some, please others, and not matter in the least to the rest. There are also all those that fall in-between the three. When you know that, it gives you the freedom to express your imagination in a way that pleases you, which typically gives it a better chance of being accepted by others. The fact that you are proud of what you have written should be enough to tell you you are on the right track, at least in subject matter, technical aspects cannot be judged by feelings.
> 
> ...



Excellent post, but until she gets past her self-doubt and remains afraid to put it out, she'll never have the chance to "enrage some, please others, and not matter in the least to the rest."


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## JosephB (Apr 3, 2011)

khobar said:


> The specific answer is simple and clear - she must put aside her self-doubt so she can move on.



Of course she must. But that's not the answer -- that's really more the problem. The question is, _how_ does she go about putting aside her self-doubt? I have no idea how she might do that, other than to show her work to someone and ask for an opinion. But in the end, it's up to her -- because you still have to recognize when to trust your instincts and when to heed or ignore any advice offered.



khobar said:


> If someone tells you to keep at it and you question the worth of the advice, ask yourself, "what have I got to lose" before deciding the advice must be bad because "how would they know when they've not read anything I've written.



I'd question the worth of the advice because I can see it for what it is -- and it's nothing more than an empty platitude. It wouldn't prompt me to ask "what have I got to lose" or anything else. And without seeing someone's work, or having any idea of what a person is capable of doing, any encouragement is just going to be a long-winded version of "keep at it." 

If you think that kind of thing is helpful, fantastic. On writing sites, there's never a shortage of people who want to issue vague, generalizing advice and encouragement, or people who ask for it. So it's all good.


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## khobar (Apr 3, 2011)

JosephB said:


> Of course she must. But that's not the answer -- that's really more the problem. The question is, _how_ does she go about putting aside her self-doubt? I have no idea how she might do that, other than to show her work to someone and ask for an opinion. But in the end, it's up to her -- because you still have to recognize when to trust your instincts and when to heed or ignore any advice offered.
> 
> I'd question the worth of the advice because I can see it for what it is -- and it's nothing more than an empty platitude. It wouldn't prompt me to ask "what have I got to lose" or anything else. And without seeing someone's work, or having any idea of what a person is capable of doing, any encouragement is just going to be a long-winded version of "keep at it."
> 
> If you think that kind of thing is helpful, fantastic. On writing sites, there's never a shortage of people who want to issue vague, generalizing advice and encouragement, or people who ask for it. So it's all good.


 
It's not vague in any way. It's not even encouragement of any sort. It's a very basic requirement for her to move forward. Nothing more, nothing less. 

How does she go about putting aside the self-doubt? You answered your own question above. As for your assertion - "You still have to recognize when to trust your instincts and when to heed or ignore any advice offered," I agree completely, and guess what enables you to do exactly that?


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## JosephB (Apr 3, 2011)

Yes, I get it. It is a requirement that she set aside self-doubt in order move forward. That’s obvious -- and it was established in the OP.

  But it’s not the _requirement_ or the problem that is vague or general. I’m talking about any advice that might be offered to solve the problem. That is, if it isn’t based on seeing her writing and knowing what she’s capable of doing. Am I not being clear about that?

  Because either I’m not being clear, or you’re not getting it. Regardless, this is getting pretty circular and rather pointless. 

Like I said, most conversations about the process of writing that don’t refer to specific examples are by nature general – usually to the point where they aren’t of much value. This one isn’t an exception.

  Later.


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## khobar (Apr 3, 2011)

JosephB said:


> Yes, I get it. It is a requirement that she set aside self-doubt in order move forward. That’s obvious -- and it was established in the OP.
> 
> But it’s not the _requirement_ or the problem that is vague or general. I’m talking about any advice that might be offered to solve the problem. That is, if it isn’t based on seeing her writing and knowing what she’s capable of doing. Am I not being clear about that?
> 
> ...



Tell any "friend" who laughs at you that they're being hurtful. If they don't change, dump them - they aren't your friend.

Read other people's work for comparison. Good for you Nikki - you're already doing that and that's the right thing to do.

If in doubt, ask. Way to go, Nikki - you have enough faith in yourself to come to a public forum and seek help. That's the right thing to do, too! 

None of these require a single word of Nikki's work. No need to unnecessarily complicate things with preconditions.


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## JosephB (Apr 3, 2011)

fleamailman said:


> "...ah now nikkiwall, I can understand your self doubt, in that, I guess that you seen those books by george bush, paris hilton, sarah paline, and the others, and are now probably feeling that, try as you may, you just can't dumb down far enough to entice that declining bookworld to accept you



 Curious as to why you’re making the assumption that she’s worried about dumbing things down, when the gist of the OP is that she’s afraid her work isn’t good enough. Seems to me that's a different issue entirely.


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## Candra H (Apr 4, 2011)

This thread just went round in about a dozen circles.



JosephB said:


> I think it's more like a bunch of students talking, just going on and on about playing an instrument in general terms -- or what it's like to play an instrument.


 
Yep. Seems to me it applies to a lot more than just music students, but that certain folks just cant seem to get that point. Maybe they're too busy talking themselves round in all those circles they made themselves dizzy.


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## khobar (Apr 4, 2011)

Candra H said:


> This thread just went round in about a dozen circles.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep. Seems to me it applies to a lot more than just music students, but that certain folks just cant seem to get that point. Maybe they're too busy talking themselves round in all those circles they made themselves dizzy.


 
Are you trying to help the OP or just attacking "certain folks"? Hmm...


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## Candra H (Apr 5, 2011)

khobar said:


> Are you trying to help the OP or just attacking "certain folks"? Hmm...



No. The op's had plenty of "help" already. I made an observation in the hope people would take my words onboard and stop indulging in self-important circular arguments simply for the sake of it. Is that clear enough for you?


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## khobar (Apr 5, 2011)

Candra H said:


> No. The op's had plenty of "help" already. I made an observation in the hope people would take my words onboard and stop indulging in self-important circular arguments simply for the sake of it. Is that clear enough for you?


 
That's what I thought.

The OP is already filled with enough self-doubt. You attacking posters you disagree with is both telling and counter productive.

Maybe go back to the beginning and re-read the comments...just sayin'.


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## Baron (Apr 5, 2011)

*Please leave moderation to the staff and try to keep posts on topic.  If anyone has a problem then they can use the report button.*


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## khobar (Apr 5, 2011)

Baron said:


> *Please leave moderation to the staff and try to keep posts on topic.  If anyone has a problem then they can use the report button.*


 
I will endeavor to stay better focused on topic.

Thanks for the reminder.


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## BEyre (Apr 6, 2011)

I need to get my husband to read this thread. 

He has always been down on himself for, what he perceives, as poor writing. He does not feel as if he is good enough or that his ideas are 'lame'. 

He does a mighty fine job of writing letters to the editor of newspapers concerning political subjects (he loves politics). But he has also tried his hand at writing fiction. Personally, and with stepping outside of the role of wife, I find his work wonderful, original, and witty.

He has been working off and on on a piece of fantasy that is filled with satire and tongue-in-cheek. He is only a few chapters in and I am in love with the world and characters he has created. 

But he does not feel the same. Well, he does in spurts. He will get down on himself and walk away from the story for weeks at a time. Then think of something (a scene, an idea) and come back to the story to write that something down. Then he hits another road block and the self-doubt starts again. Personally, I think the problem lies in the fact that he has the overall plot of the story and major events in mind, but it is the writing of details and dialogue that is killing him.

As for myself, I also have self-doubt when it comes to ANYTHING I do: writing, cross stitching, website design, cooking, etc. For me at least, I believe past experiences in my life have led to this self-doubt - a self-doubt that naturally varies in intensity from task to task. 

Regardless of past experiences (etc), I think we all naturally have self-doubt to one degree or another. For those few who are so very confident, almost to the point of conceit (if not at or beyond that point), I personally believe they weren't in it for the ride to begin with. They just wanted the end result, whatever that may be: recognition, fame, power, glory, wealth, etc. They probably did not care about their craft to begin with, whether it was building a business, writing a novel, painting a picture, acting in a play ... all they cared about was the end result and felt they could do anything to reach that point. This is just my own opinion. I know it is not a solid argument, but I truly do not have the time to compose a proper one (I should be working at my day job! LOL).

In closing, I do not think there is one catch-all answer to how to overcome self-doubt and realize that your finished manuscript is good enough to send off to the publishers. That threshold you reach where you take a deep breath and hand the novel over is going to differ from individual to individual. No matter how much advice you read, in the end, it will still be up to you to know/feel when the time is right for you. 

Best of luck to the OP - I hope you take that leap of faith soon and send off your queries and manuscript and get published.


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## JosephB (Apr 6, 2011)

As has been noted, everyone feels self-doubt from time-to-time. But I think you're either the kind of person who finishes a novel or you're not. I understand the need to commiserate -- to hear that others have doubts too -- but I find it hard to believe that a thread like this is actually going to make any difference one way or the other.


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## Candra H (Apr 6, 2011)

It's not the self doubt but what you do with it that counts.


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## khobar (Apr 6, 2011)

BEyre said:


> I need to get my husband to read this thread.
> 
> He has always been down on himself for, what he perceives, as poor writing. He does not feel as if he is good enough or that his ideas are 'lame'.
> 
> ...



First - you're being supportive, well beyond the "that's nice dear" kind. Big thumbs up on that. Second - you have come to a public forum for help - that in itself takes guts, so well done on that, too.

Your husband has a different issue than the OP and thus requires a more in-depth solution. From what you've said he has no problem writing in public what he is comfortable with, but he is down on himself for what he perceives as "poor writing" when it comes to his fiction. He writes in spurts - walks away for weeks at a time, then comes back and writes a scene then walks away again. Is he trying to write a final copy as he goes? Some things to keep in mind -

- There's a reason a rough draft is named so. His writing won't be perfect from the start. Novels typically go through several revisions. In my opinion this is not something to fear but to embrace because with each revision the writing gets better and better as the writer is able to focus on smaller and smaller details. 

- He shouldn't be concerned with people seeing what he's writing right now. The important thing for him is to get the story down any way he can - rough draft, outline, sticky notes, whatever. 

- Have him actively thinking about what kind of feedback he wants. The more specific he is, the more helpful the feedback is likely to be when the time comes.

- He needs to know that in the grand scheme of things, everyone's going to have an opinion. Some will love his work, some will hate it, some simply won't care. He will have to set aside any ego and evaluate the feedback objectively as best he can. If something really annoys him, he should put it aside and go on to the next. There are different reasons why feedback unleashes emotional responses. Sometimes feedback is purely hurtful and total BS, and sometimes it may be telling the writer something he doesn't want to admit. When the writer gets enough feedback he'll see patterns in it and will start to develop the skills to know what applies to him and what doesn't. 

- In the weeks between writing scenes (hopefully that will start to shorten), your husband should be reading works in the same genre. You can either research what books and authors are popular in the genre now and then read those to find out why they are popular, or you can pick books/authors at random.

- Unfortunately, self-doubt is *always* lurking within waiting to strike when given the chance and will take over unless you beat it down where it belongs.

Hopefully you will find something useful in what I've offered. Best of luck to you and your husband.


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## BEyre (Apr 6, 2011)

Khobar,

All of what you have said is what I have conveyed to him in some fashion. Hence why I need him to read this thread so he can see that others are saying similar. 

Yes, he does read similar works in the genre ... we both read several books at a time ... very avid readers. 

And yes, and a bit irk of mine, he does write the story as if it is to be the near-final draft (obviously there is going to be some revision etc). I keep telling him to not do that as it only adds more stress. The silly man doesn't listen. Honey, when you read this - yes, I called you silly!   hehe

Anyways, not to hijack this thread anymore than I already have ... I do hope that ALL of our posts have in one way or another given the OP some food for thought and the support s/he needs to take those final steps.


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