# looking for something better than theasirious



## kunox (Mar 9, 2013)

Basically there are two words I use remedially through out my writing.

1. Well
and
2. Said

There is only one thing I can do about the word said and that's reword but  saying said to much is becoming over whelming and boring so....!!!!! I am looking for something like a thesaurus but not just fir words with the same meaning. I am looking for one for words that can replace that one in all sorts of situations without going over a persons head.

also if I can use the thesaurus to replace l-y words. I've got a dictionary app that may help.

P.S. Thank you for your time


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## Travers (Mar 9, 2013)

In what context do you use 'well'? Do you mean at the start of a sentence or as an almost mid sentence stutter? Because if it's either of those then you could more or less just leave it out. If it's another context, please explain.

As for 'said', you can use all sorts of things (and you really should) in it's place depending on what emotions the people speaking are feeling at the time. Are they shouting, whispering, enthusing, exclaiming, screaming, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...

P.s thesaurus dot com is perfectly usable.


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## kunox (Mar 9, 2013)

Thank you.... To your first question... Yes I use it right at the beginning of the sentence and thanks for the advice.


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## Sam (Mar 9, 2013)

There's no point in using a thesaurus if you don't know what the words mean. You'll be using them in the wrong context and it will look even worse. You need to read and build your vocabulary by noticing different words and looking them up in a _dictionary_, so you'll know in what context they can be used.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 9, 2013)

Using a word to grab the attention at the beginning is a trick of speech that you do not need to transfer into writing, in fact it will detract slightly from what follows.
As a demonstration think about,
Basically there are two words I use remedially through out my writing.
compared to
There are two words I use remedially through out my writing.
(by the way 'remedially' is from the root 'remedy', I think you want 'over use', and throughout is a single word). If the person has started reading you do not need to catch their attention, as Travers says, simply leave it off.

As for the 'said', yes you can replace it, but make sure it is with a speech related word such as 'shouted'. Too often I see things like 'he giggled', people do not 'giggle' words. However I would not worry over much, you may notice, but to your readers it will seem as natural to follow a bit of speech with 'he said' as it will to follow a sentence with a full stop, the occasional exclamation mark or question mark may substitute for it when appropriate, but seeking out alternatives would just seem strange and distracting.

My rule of thumb for the thesaurus and rhyming dictionary is that I use them to find the word that will not come to mind, not to find a substitute or to discover words I did not know, that tends to make the writing seem unnatural and spoil the flow.


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## Dave Watson (Mar 9, 2013)

Whatever you do, please don't use the word "ejaculated" when describing someone blurting out something in a surprised manner. I've seen that in a few books and it's just all kinds of wrong!


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## JosephB (Mar 9, 2013)

I'd love to see an example of "ejaculated" used as a dialog tag in anything published in the last 100 years. I think that example has been propagated so much on the internet and on writing sites in particular, people actually believe they've read it.


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## Potty (Mar 9, 2013)

My understanding was that the word "said" is something that a reader doesn't even notice. Its the other words that get noticed more and become tedious. 

"Hi." She smiled.
"Hello back." He replied.
"You going to buy me a drink then?" She remarked.
"I thought it was your round." He said slyly.
"If you want to keep talking to me, you'll buy me another drink." She demanded.
"And if I don't buy you a drink?" he asked.
"Then I'll leave." She stated.
"But I don't want you to leave!" He begged
"Then buy me a drink, handsome." She oralised
"Another drink, barkeep!" he ejaculated.

Or

"Hi." She said.
"Hello back." He replied.
"You going to buy me a drink then?" 
"I thought it was your round." 
"If you want to keep talking to me, you'll buy me another drink." 
"And if I don't buy you a drink?" 
"Then I'll leave." 
"But I don't want you to leave!" 
"Then buy me a drink, handsome." 
"Another drink, barkeep!" 

I know which one I would rather read!


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## Rustgold (Mar 9, 2013)

JosephB said:


> I'd love to see an example of "ejaculated" used as a dialog tag in anything published in the last 100 years.



If I remember correctly, Rowlings used it on the first page of her HP book (or maybe 1st page of 2nd chapter - not looking).


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## shadowwalker (Mar 9, 2013)

Agree - a thesaurus is not a good book if you're trying to find a word you don't already know. I guarantee you will use it incorrectly. Use it to find that word you just can't remember right now.

As to said - not every piece of dialogue has to have a dialogue tag. And said is invisible to the reader - like "the". What gets the reader's attention is constantly using some substitute for 'said' - but not in a good way. I was in a beta group once, and a writer insisted that said should be used as little as possible. We betas spent more time laughing among ourselves at the dialogue tags (and trying to guess what new ones she would come up with). Consequently, it was a nightmare trying to crit the thing while ignoring those idiotic tags. Unless the way a character is speaking is truly ambiguous, use 'said' and _show _the reader.


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## Bloggsworth (Mar 9, 2013)

JosephB said:


> I'd love to see an example of "ejaculated" used as a dialog tag in anything published in the last 100 years. I think that example has been propagated so much on the internet and on writing sites in particular, people actually believe they've read it.



Sherlock Holmes ejaculated fairly frequently - Where do I collect my prize?


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## Bloggsworth (Mar 9, 2013)

Just checked on Amazonious, they will be publishing a Theasirious on April 1st...


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## JosephB (Mar 9, 2013)

Rustgold said:


> If I remember correctly, Rowlings used it on the first page of her HP book (or maybe 1st page of 2nd chapter - not looking).



I'd have to see that to believe it.



Bloggsworth said:


> Sherlock Holmes ejaculated fairly frequently - Where do I collect my prize?



Looks like you made it under the 100 year mark on that one, depending on the book. And if you're right, the prize is a nanosecond of my admiration.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 9, 2013)

> "Hi." She smiled.
> "Hello back." He replied.
> "You going to buy me a drink then?" She remarked.
> "I thought it was your round." He said slyly.
> ...



If you do write a piece of dialogue of this nature remember that the rule is that the after tag counts as part of what is contained within the speech marks, so finish that with a comma and start the tag with a small letter, not a capital. Use the small letter even if the quoted part requires an exclamation or question mark (Unless a capital is normally demanded as in, "Do that again," Lady Chatterly demanded). Sometimes conventions, such as the position of the comma inside or outside the quotation marks, can vary, but do remember to be consistent.


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## bazz cargo (Mar 9, 2013)

"A Theaserious, wow!"


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 9, 2013)

bazz cargo said:


> "A Theaserious, wow!"


If you check a few of the o.p.'s past posts you will realise that his command of English is like the Peace of God at times, however he displays a willingness to learn which has to be commended.


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## Rustgold (Mar 9, 2013)

Sam said:


> There's no point in using a thesaurus if you don't know what the words mean. You'll be using them in the wrong context and it will look even worse.


Yes, but it's useful when you have a word which isn't quite right, and need the right word; and also useful when combined with a dictionary to gain depth in your language skills.


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## Lewdog (Mar 9, 2013)

Can someone give me a synonym for theasirious?[h=1][/h]


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## Bloggsworth (Mar 9, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> Can someone give me a synonym for theasirious?



Thewordybook


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## kunox (Mar 9, 2013)

sorry I've been a sleep all morning... so I'll be reading this stuff off and on and replying actionably. sorry If I double post....


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## Staff Deployment (Mar 9, 2013)

JosephB said:


> I'd love to see an example of "ejaculated" used as a dialog tag in anything published in the last 100 years.



Lovecraft uses it occasionally. That was around 80 years ago.

BOOM YOUR SNARKINESS HAS JUST BEEN SHATTERED
HOPE YOU BROUGHT SOME ALOE LOTION CAUSE YOU JUST GOT

BURNED

EDIT: wait no someone else beat me to it, dangit

EDITEDIT: Also Kunox, nobody reads the word 'said.' It's one of those words people skip over. If you're not obviously over-doing it and using it every single time anybody so much as coughs, you're probably safe.


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## Bloggsworth (Mar 9, 2013)

Said, or:

Remarked
Expostulated
Mentioned
Replied
Implied
Commented
Sighed
Murmured
Whispered
Uttered
Proselytised
Shouted
Exclaimed
Shrieked
Whittered
Posited
Protested
Intoned
Spoke
Yelled
Yelped
Whispered
Cried
Sighed

All alternatives to *said* according to context and without reference to either a dictionary or thesaurus - Guess I've been around too long...


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## kunox (Mar 9, 2013)

lol thanx!!!.... blogsworth


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## Lewdog (Mar 9, 2013)

You forgot:

Postulated
Demanded
Called
Appealed
Commanded
Inquired
Petitioned
Ordered
Wanted
...and many more.


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## Rustgold (Mar 9, 2013)

http://www.writingforums.com/writing-discussion/47012-different-ways-say-said.html


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## Bloggsworth (Mar 9, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> You forgot:
> 
> Postulated
> Demanded
> ...



I got more interested in QPR winning 3-1


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## Lewdog (Mar 9, 2013)

Bloggsworth said:


> I got more interested in QPR winning 3-1



I'm guessing the 'Q' doesn't stand for Quince.


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## Potty (Mar 9, 2013)

"Are you an alien?" he asked xenophobicly. 

Now just for Z


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## Lewdog (Mar 9, 2013)

Zinged?


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## Rustgold (Mar 9, 2013)

Potty said:


> "Are you an alien?" he asked xenophobicly.
> 
> Now just for Z



"Are you Zulu," he zinged.

edit : Too slow.


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## Lewdog (Mar 9, 2013)

"Always look before you leap," he advocated.


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## Staff Deployment (Mar 9, 2013)

Yeah, 'said' is usually better than those. They're meant to give an otherwise unclear meaning to the dialogue.

"Hello," he said.
is much different to
"Hello," he whispered.

Yet to use them for the sake of using them just sounds pretentious and kind of weird.

"Hello," he said.
"Hello," he exclaimed.

There's a difference between them but it's very trivial.

Unless it's important that the tone the character says the dialogue in is different to what his/her words may suggest, just use "said."


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## kunox (Mar 9, 2013)

Thank you everybody you guys techno lol... In other words rock.


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## Bloggsworth (Mar 10, 2013)

Staff Deployment said:


> "Hello," he said.
> "Hello," he exclaimed.
> 
> There's a difference between them but it's very trivial.



There is a HUGE difference between the two; the first could be a very ordinary _hello_ as in "I greet you/I meet you", the second is a hello of surprise "Hello (who or what is this I see before me)" is implicit in the _exclaimed_ part. Using the correct word in relation to a piece of dialogue can be critical in setting the tone of the piece, and if you are not using words in order to set the tone then you need to learn to.
_
"I'm going to take off your clothes one by one" whispered Tony in Angela's ear._ Is clearly seductive.

_"I'm going to take off your clothes one by one" said Tony to Angela_. Could be said by a paramedic to an injured patient or a nurse to a quadraplegic.

_"I'm going to take off your clothes one by one" screamed Tony in Angela's ear_. Could be the words of a rapist attacking Angela.

The correct word for the right context...


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## Staff Deployment (Mar 10, 2013)

What I meant is: Unless it's crucial that the dialogue's tone is different to what the words suggest (for example in those cases Bloggsworth described) it's better to use 'said.'
Or, instead may I amend that assertion by saying it's often a good decision to just leave out the speech tags.



> "The coffee's still hot," the barista surmised.
> "I'll wait, then," the customer proclaimed.
> "There are seats over by the window," she declared.



versus



> "The coffee's still hot," the barista said.
> "I'll wait then."
> "There are seats over by the window."


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## JosephB (Mar 10, 2013)

Is there something that makes it hard to pull a book or two or three off a shelf to see how this kind of thing is done? I mean, is this really that complicated?


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## Ariel (Mar 10, 2013)

No, it isn't except that it is kind of the purpose of this forum--to discuss technicalities if writing and using speech tags is a part of that, Joe.  

all that said, what I normally see is that most writers stick to "said."  It's unnoticeable and it isn't jarring.  The others work but only if the level of writing and the situation in the story calls for them.

As for -ly words what do you mean?  Do you mean that you use adjectives entirely too much?  Or is it something like he word "really?" 

Sorry, it's hard for me to think right now, I have a cat biting my elbow.


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## Staff Deployment (Mar 10, 2013)

re. josephb
Yeah. Books are fun. Carefully searching through books for specific uses of certain words is not fun.

And your argument can be extended to practically any thread on this forum. There's always the task of learning the tricks of the trade, but all of these threads are not just about that; having a consistent community to help discuss these things is the intrinsic benefit.

But then looking back on what I wrote earlier, I suppose making bold and nigh-unwavering assertions is not the correct way to go about it. Whoops.


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## JosephB (Mar 10, 2013)

Staff Deployment said:


> And your argument can be extended to practically any thread on this forum. There's always the task of learning the tricks of the trade, but all of these threads are not just about that; having a consistent community to help discuss these things is the intrinsic benefit.



For one, when I have a question, my first impulse is to look into it for myself and come up with an answer or solve the problem on my own. Two, I guess I have no real desire to state the obvious or do the work for folks who don’t seem to want to make that effort. But you're right -- it’s a writing site – and if everyone thought that way, you wouldn’t need half of it.


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## Bloggsworth (Mar 10, 2013)

The repetitive use of *Said* in written work is like *Er* or *Um* or *You know* or *like* in ordinary speech, unneccessary and, at times, irritating.


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## Sam (Mar 10, 2013)

Not all writers use 'said'. That's a generalisation, and a very heavy one at that. Used in the right context, and in the hands of a skilled wordsmith, there's nothing wrong with an occasional 'observed' or 'surmised'. The problem is that you can't _always _indicate the tone or severity of dialogue with emphasis and exclamation marks, and I would consider too many of those more irritating than an infrequent flowery dialogue tag. For instance, as Blog pointed out, 'whispered'has an _entirely _different context than 'said'. You can convey a person shouting through use of capital letters or italics, but it is impossible to indicate whispering without describing it in prose or using a dialogue tag.


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## shadowwalker (Mar 10, 2013)

I just wonder how often the dialogue is so isolated from the story that readers really need anything other than 'said'. Are writers actually setting up scenes where the reader would be confused as to the emotions of the characters? Even two emotions that are closely related - anger and derision - can be amply described by having the speaker say one of two words; either "Damn!" for anger, or "Poppycock!" for derision. It takes a little more work on the writer's part but it's certainly preferable to having the reader rolling their eyes, or laughing, and in general being pulled out of the story by these distractions.


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## JosephB (Mar 10, 2013)

Don't use anything other than "said" then. Some of my favorite writers use alternate dialog tags -- and I do from time-to-time. I seriously doubt the majority of readers even notice them or analyze it to this extent. When it comes to issues like this, I try and harken back to the time before I started to write -- when I just used to read. And I can't recall getting hung up on dialog tags.

From _A Good Man is Hard to Find_, by Flannery O'Connor, often cited as one of the best short stories of all time:



> "He probably didn't have any," the grandmother explained.





> "Ain't she cute?" the woman repeated…





> "Aren't you ashamed?" hissed the grandmother.





> "We never have seen a house with a secret panel!" June Star shrieked.



From another great short story, also often listed among the best, _The Swimmer_ by John Cheaver:



> "Why, I didn't know one could," exclaimed Mrs. Halloran.





> "As a gate crasher," he asked politely. "Do I rate a drink?"





> "Yes," Mrs. Halloran sighed.


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## Kevin (Mar 10, 2013)

Tags are archaic and passe'. They're like cheating because your prose is not good enough to hold a descriptive dialog. There, I've said it. Throw your rotten tomatoes (I'd aim for the head and the groin)


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## Lewdog (Mar 10, 2013)

Kevin said:


> Tags are archaic and passe'. They're like cheating because your prose is not good enough to hold a descriptive dialog. There, I've said it. Throw your rotten tomatoes (I'd aim for the head and the groin)



I disagree, I like the use of a variety of words.  Without them it reminds me of going to a sporting event and everyone sitting the entire time with their legs crossed and their hands folded in their lap.


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## JosephB (Mar 10, 2013)

An alternative tag is occasionally the most efficient means of doing the job. If you want to chuck the tool out of the box because your prose are so awesome -- be my guest.


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## Lewdog (Mar 10, 2013)

Usually I use alternate tags for dialogue to make people mad so that they won't read my pieces of work, but that's just me.  Feel free to find other (synonym for alternate) ways to make people angry (synonym for mad).


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## shadowwalker (Mar 10, 2013)

JosephB said:


> An alternative tag is occasionally the most efficient means of doing the job. If you want to chuck the tool out of the box because your prose are so awesome -- be my guest.



The key word is 'occasional'. But deliberately seeking out alternates generally means you're not doing something right to start with.


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## Lewdog (Mar 10, 2013)

Let me ask a serious question then.  At what point do you decide in your writing that it is ok to leave off the dialogue tags all together and just separate the dialogue with spaces?  Like:

"I'm going to the grocery," Mary said.

"Don't forget milk," Tom answered.

"Do I ever?"

"Well last week I had to eat my cereal with water!"

"Well get your own darn milk!"

"Fine!  Maybe I'll just bring home a cow after work and we'll never run out of milk!"


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## Kevin (Mar 10, 2013)

Mary was thirsty. She sighed to herself and noticed yet again, how engrossed in the computer Tom was. "I'm going to the market."

"Don't forget the milk."

"...or the rat poison."

"What?"

"Nothing Dear." She grabbed her keys and left.


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## Lewdog (Mar 10, 2013)

Lewdog looked at Keven with vengeful eyes, "Those cookies you baked for me last week..."

"Yeah?" Kevin answered with his back turned.

"Did you just mention rat poison?"

"Yeah, what about it?"

"You've got five cats, you might as well be a spinster.  You don't need rat poison!"

"No, you're right.  I don't need rat poison," Kevin followed under his breath, "...I need arsenic."


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## JosephB (Mar 10, 2013)

shadowwalker said:


> The key word is 'occasional'. But deliberately seeking out alternates generally means you're not doing something right to start with.



Of course. I managed to find a few examples in two short stories that are probably around 5,000 words or more in length. Otherwise, if people don't have the "ear" to notice that they are misusing or overusing something to the point where it's going to trip people up -- they probably have bigger issues to deal with.


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## Angelwing (Mar 10, 2013)

By the way, "Ejaculated" was used in The Great Gatsby  

"Stated" can be a good assertive word in place of "said."


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## Nee (Mar 10, 2013)

Yes...75% of the time you don't even need a tag. And 75% of the rest of the time "said" is better because it does not interrupt the flow.

And the actual tag Rowling used was: "Ron ejaculated wildly." it was in the Goblet of Fire I believe.


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## Angelwing (Mar 10, 2013)

Usually I introduce the two characters' dialogue with tags, but then leave it off. 

"Hello!" greeted Smith.
"Oh, hello, how are things?" Replied Thompson. 
"Worrying." 
"Well," began Thompson, breaking from his paperwork, "how come?"


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## Rustgold (Mar 11, 2013)

Nee said:


> And the actual tag Rowling used was: "Ron ejaculated wildly." it was in the Goblet of Fire I believe.



When a normal ejaculated isn't good enough.  Swifty move over, there's a new Queen in town.


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## Nee (Mar 11, 2013)

And, for those inclined toward serious word smithery:

The *Synonym Finder* by *J. I. Rodale*


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## Tiberius (Mar 11, 2013)

kunox said:


> Basically there are two words I use remedially through out my writing.
> 
> 1. Well
> and
> ...



First of all, there's nothing wrong with "Said."  If you try to use other words, you risk making it stand out which will pull the reader out of the story.

"Where did you go today?" she inquired.

"To the shops," he informed her.

"I suppose you saw Sarah," she accused.

"I may have," he admitted.

"Are you having an affair with her?" she demanded of him.

"Absolutely not!" he retorted.

"I don't believe you!" she spat.

it just makes it seem like you're trying too hard.  Use "said" unless you have a specific need to use something else.  Also, instead of using a synonym for "said" to convey the emotion, use action.  You may not even need to use "said at all.  In the above scene:

"Where did you go today?" she asked.  She didn't look up.

"To the shops," he said.

"I suppose you saw Sarah." Her voice was quiet.

"I may have," he said.  He looked up at her.

"Are you having an affair with her?" she asked, her eyes meeting his with a hard gaze.

"Absolutely not!" he said, shocked.

"I don't believe you!"


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## Rustgold (Mar 11, 2013)

Tiberius said:


> First of all, there's nothing wrong with "Said."  If you try to use other words, you risk making it stand out which will pull the reader out of the story.
> 
> "Where did you go today?" she inquired.
> "To the shops," he informed her.
> ...



All of the 'saids' were little better, plus you deliberately made the first one worse by not using asked on the first line.



> "Where did you go today?" she asked.
> "To the shop.".
> "I suppose you saw Sarah."
> "I may have."
> ...


In your example, the only dialogue tag needed wasn't even a 'said'.  Just shows that these dictatorial 'said' rules aren't as crash hot as dictated.


(edit: I'm not sure if I'm sounding impolite, not meaning to if I am; I'll blame my headache).


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## Sam (Mar 11, 2013)

Tiberius said:


> First of all, there's nothing wrong with "Said."  If you try to use other words, you risk making it stand out which will pull the reader out of the story.
> 
> "Where did you go today?" she inquired.
> 
> ...



That's hyperbole.


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## moderan (Mar 11, 2013)

The idea of replacing -ly words is also preposterous. This is what happens when you try to write by the rules you learn on forums. There are no absolutes in writing. You are merely trying to make yourself understood as well as you are able.


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## Sam (Mar 11, 2013)

moderan said:


> The idea of replacing -ly words is also preposterous. This is what happens when you try to write by the rules you learn on forums. There are no absolutes in writing. You are merely trying to make yourself understood as well as you are able.



Truer words . . .


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## JosephB (Mar 11, 2013)

Tiberius said:


> "Where did you go today?" she inquired.
> 
> "To the shops," he informed her.
> 
> ...



You're the one trying too hard -- trying to make a point by manufacturing a horrible example. That's just bad writing. No one here or anyone in his right mind would advocate tagging every single line of dialog and replacing every instance of "said" with an alternative -- what you did. Alternatives can be used effectively in small doses -- of course, it's possible to misuse or overuse _anything._ And the idea that readers actually get "taken out of the story" by an occasional alternative tag is an example of how writers lose their objectivity by over-thinking things -- a reader just isn't going to notice it. This "only use said" thing is just another one of those useless canards propagated and magnified on writing forums. It can be safely ignored.


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## Kryptex (Mar 11, 2013)

Personally, I believe you should use a few tags, for the first few sentences, and then just leave it. It works profoundly, and in all honesty - never have I been bothered by the author using 'said' too much.

Do what comes to mind, while you're doing it, and then edit it (Unless you're taking part in the NaNoWriMo ).

But yeah, take the aforementioned examples, the _realistic_ ones, not the ones that don't use normal terminology. 



Lewdog said:


> Let me ask a serious question then.  At what point do you decide in your writing that it is ok to leave off the dialogue tags all together and just separate the dialogue with spaces?  Like:
> 
> "I'm going to the grocery," Mary said.
> 
> ...



That, I believe is a good example of doing it right, and it's easy to just follow through on that line, for example:



> Tom slammed the door with a sigh, rubbed his forehead in frustration and walked to the gate. He turned back, anger evident on his face and shrugged - what could he do?



Do you see what I mean?


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## Sam (Mar 11, 2013)

Another example, as Joe points out, of authors seriously over-thinking the process of writing. Is it any wonder some can't get past 10,000 words when they're constantly fretting over every little thing? 

If anyone can find a published novel which only uses 'said' as a dialogue tag, I'll eat my shirt.


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## shadowwalker (Mar 11, 2013)

I think we need to remember that, as with many "rules" of writing, this gets emphasized because so many new writers abuse use of alternates. As one 'ages' in the writing craft, we learn that there aren't any rules beyond grammar and spelling, of course. But yes, as I mentioned earlier, there are writers who will go to ridiculous lengths not to use 'said'. The examples given throughout this discussion, which were called hyperbole and ridiculous as examples - I've seen them in real writing and defended to the death by the authors. It's kinda like telling a five year old never to touch the stove, but as they get older, they get to cook supper.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 11, 2013)

Sam said:


> If anyone can find a published novel which only uses 'said' as a dialogue tag, I'll eat my shirt.


This seems rash Sam, unless you have an especially tasty shirt saved up. There are quite a number of novels in which there is almost no dialogue for various reasons, for example; the novel consists of a monologue or has a single character, or may be written as a series of letters, notes, memos, or other collected writings. Where there are only very few tags I suspect there are at least some that only use 'he/she said'.


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## JosephB (Mar 11, 2013)

shadowwalker said:


> I think we need to remember that, as with  many "rules" of writing, this gets emphasized because so many new  writers abuse use of alternates. As one 'ages' in the writing craft, we  learn that there aren't any rules beyond grammar and spelling, of  course. But yes, as I mentioned earlier, there are writers who will go  to ridiculous lengths not to use 'said'. The examples given throughout  this discussion, which were called hyperbole and ridiculous as examples -  I've seen them in real writing and defended to the death by the  authors. It's kinda like telling a five year old never to touch the  stove, but as they get older, they get to cook supper.



I don't see examples like the one we're talking about -- not even close. Probably because any new writer who started in the past ten years and has an internet connection has almost certainly come across this "don't use anything but said" thing. And you've got people saying that here -- and not even bothering to temper it with any kind logic or suggestion that people actually read what's out there so they can decide for themselves. So it's necessary for people to do what I'm doing and jump and say it's baloney. Alternative tags are a tool, and like any tool, they can be misused or overused. There's never a good reason for a five-year old to touch the stove.


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## Terry D (Mar 11, 2013)

The use of 'said' vs alternates is a style choice every writer has to make for themselves.  Like every other style choice it is a learning experience for new writers.  If you stick with the craft long enough to get half-way proficient you'll figure out what works for you, and that any advice you get about it is based on the advice giver's own bias.

I had to actually go look at my current ms to see which category I fall into (I had a good idea, but couldn't really remember because I don't think much about dialogue tags).  I seldom use anything other than 'said', 'asked', or 'replied'.  Occasionally, based on context, I'll use something more descriptive, but those incidents are rare. Often I don't use tags at all during long dialogue exchanges.  That's just me, though.  Your mileage will vary.


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## Sam (Mar 11, 2013)

Olly Buckle said:


> This seems rash Sam, unless you have an especially tasty shirt saved up. There are quite a number of novels in which there is almost no dialogue for various reasons, for example; the novel consists of a monologue or has a single character, or may be written as a series of letters, notes, memos, or other collected writings. Where there are only very few tags I suspect there are at least some that only use 'he/she said'.



I didn't say 'dialogue', Olly. I said 'dialogue tag'. Obviously if a novel doesn't have dialogue, it isn't going to need dialogue tags. But any novel of fiction written in the last fifty years will contain dialogue tags other that 'he said', 'she said'. I'd wager my life savings on that.


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## shadowwalker (Mar 11, 2013)

JosephB said:


> I don't see examples like the one we're talking about -- not even close. Probably because any new writer who started in the past ten years and has an internet connection has almost certainly come across this "don't use anything but said" thing. And you've got people saying that here -- and not even bothering to temper it with any kind logic or suggestion that people actually read what's out there so they can decide for themselves. So it's necessary for people to do what I'm doing and jump and say it's baloney. Alternative tags are a tool, and like any tool, they can be misused or overused. There's never a good reason for a five-year old to touch the stove.



Well, again, all I can say is that I have seen examples of writers (and yes, recently and with internet) who go whole hog with alternatives, and no matter how much one tries to explain the problem with over-use, it does no good. And the example of the five year old was to illustrate that we often have absolutes given us when 'young' or 'inexperienced', and those absolutes get softened with experience. Personally, I find very little reason to use anything but 'said', but acknowledge that on occasion it's needed. It's the idea that one needs to look for alternatives because said is intrusive or boring that irritates me, and those are the reasons that prompt people to tell someone not to do it.


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## Lewdog (Mar 11, 2013)

*Starts handing out torches and pitchforks*  Death to adverbs!  Death to adverbs!  Down with the 1% of grammar, those darn adverbs!  Who's coming with me?  This fish is coming with me!  *Scoops the fish out of the fish tank and puts him in a sandwich bag*  Okay, who else is coming with me?


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## Jon M (Mar 11, 2013)

.


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## JosephB (Mar 11, 2013)

shadowwalker said:


> Well, again, all I can say is that I have seen examples of writers (and yes, recently and with internet) who go whole hog with alternatives, and no matter how much one tries to explain the problem with over-use, it does no good.



I couldn’t be bothered with someone who would defend that. Anyone with an iota of writing talent would know better. I’m not really about offering general writing advice with no context anyway, other than suggesting that people to put on their thinking caps and look at what’s out there -- stuff written by people who actually know what they’re doing.


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## Lewdog (Mar 11, 2013)

When someone starts deciding what is good or bad writing by what rules a writer does or does not follow, the art of writing is no longer an art, but more an act of work.  The best writers don't write as a choice of profession, but rather let writing choose them as a desire on how to live their life.  You can take any English teacher that knows all the rules of grammar and tell them to sit down and write a story, but that doesn't guarantee it will be entertaining.  It takes a special person with a bit of creativity to write something that will grip the writer and draw them in.  If I know anything about creative people, it's that they don't always follow the rules.


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## JosephB (Mar 11, 2013)

It’s different for everyone, but I think the best thing that ever happened to me was that I wrote most of a novella without having read a single how-to book or joining a writing site. I remember specifically spending a great deal of time looking at dialog in the books I had on the shelf and then working through it -- and how I write dialog hasn’t really changed a whole lot from those first efforts. Again -- it’s all out there in black and white. If you're struggling, write something and post it. In my opinion, that's a better way to learn than looking for easy answers.


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## shadowwalker (Mar 11, 2013)

JosephB said:


> It’s different for everyone, but I think the best thing that ever happened to me was that I wrote most of a novella without having read a single how-to book or joining a writing site.



Yes - other than basic English classes in school, I never joined an actual writing forum or had even heard of most 'standard' writing guides until after I'd been writing for many years. (I joined several forums after deciding I wanted to publish, so the desire was almost exclusively for the publishing info.)


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## JosephB (Mar 11, 2013)

shadowwalker said:


> Yes - other than basic English classes in school, I never joined an actual writing forum or had even heard of most 'standard' writing guides until after I'd been writing for many years. (I joined several forums after deciding I wanted to publish, so the desire was almost exclusively for the publishing info.)



I took a creative writing class in college -- but I missed, was high or hungover for most of it. It really is a total blur. Oh well. At least I didn't pick up any bad habits.


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## Sam (Mar 11, 2013)

I've never read, nor have the inclination to read, a how-to book on writing. It's somewhat like reading a carpenter's manual when you're working for a 25-year carpentry veteran who can show you everything, including tricks of the trade no manual can impart. It's always struck me as odd that someone would read a how-to guide instead of a novel. To each their own, I suppose, and once again it's the old cliché of whatever works best. If you find a guide beneficial, go for it, but I've always maintained that they fill a writer's head full of unnecessary and conflicting information. That in turn leads to over-thinking. And that, in my opinion, is the biggest problem that faces any aspiring writer. At every other turn they're being bombarded with trivialities like show/tell, adverbs, dialogue tags, etcetera. It's no wonder they're encountering writer's block. Before they've even put pen to paper, their heads are filled with garbage and they haven't the confidence to put one word after another without worrying if someone else deems it okay.


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## Lewdog (Mar 11, 2013)

When a person reads a how to manual on writing, the only thing they are going to learn, is how to write like someone else.  Isn't that the exact opposite of what writing is all about?  Isn't it the point to build your own style and niche?


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## Ariel (Mar 11, 2013)

All the "how-to" books and classes (I have a bachelor's) I've had on writing offer exactly the same advice that this site offers, only more in-depth.  If you want to argue that the advice offered on this site isn't beneficial or that it's trivial then by all means, go ahead.  I just think that you're now working at cross-purposes.

I agree that learning the craft of writing is best done by reading the masters and then writing your own works.  Writing well takes practice and familiarity. 

But one of the best tools I took away from those classes and "how-to" books was the ability to read and think critically about writing.  I learned the art of noticing the craft.  I learned revision from those classes and I learned that discussion of the craft is vital.


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## Lewdog (Mar 11, 2013)

Let me pose this question: what is more important, a book that is completely punctuated correctly but tells a boring story, or a book that seems to have some unorthodox uses of punctuation and writing techniques, but keeps your nose to the grind stone to the end?


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## shadowwalker (Mar 11, 2013)

The number one thing I've learned from books, forums, classes, and groups - For every bit of advice you get, you'll get another that directly contradicts it. Once you realize that, it's easier to pick and choose which ones actually work for _you_.


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## shadowwalker (Mar 11, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> Let me pose this question: what is more important, a book that is completely punctuated correctly but tells a boring story, or a book that seems to have some unorthodox uses of punctuation and writing techniques, but keeps your nose to the grind stone to the end?



If a book is boring, most people won't read far enough to appreciate the perfect punctuation.


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## Foxee (Mar 11, 2013)

shadowwalker said:


> If a book is boring, most people won't read far enough to appreciate the perfect punctuation.


I would agree with that. Cold Mountain was kind of odd to me in that the dialogue was set off with em-dashes rather than quotation marks. It kind of threw me at first but I kept reading because the story was interesting. (Side note: And even though the story was depressing enough that I kept wanting to put the book down, it kept me engaged with what might happen next.)

Nobody is perfect. I'm willing to put up with some mistakes if a story if really, really great but if the mistakes keep me from really reading or understanding the story it doesn't matter how good it is. Strive for excellence in both.


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## Lewdog (Mar 11, 2013)

Foxee said:


> I would agree with that. Cold Mountain was kind of odd to me in that the dialogue was set off with em-dashes rather than quotation marks. It kind of threw me at first but I kept reading because the story was interesting. (Side note: And even though the story was depressing enough that I kept wanting to put the book down, it kept me engaged with what might happen next.)
> 
> Nobody is perfect. I'm willing to put up with some mistakes if a story if really, really great but if the mistakes keep me from really reading or understanding the story it doesn't matter how good it is. Strive for excellence in both.



  It's not a mistake, it's a clash in styles.  As humans we general hate things that are different, want them to go away.  It takes a special sort of person to look at something we don't quite understand and at least give it a chance before killing it and labeling it wrong or negative.  Even though you may have called it wrong in this post, it's obvious you gave the author a chance and ended up better in the long run for having finished the book.


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## Foxee (Mar 11, 2013)

Lew, please show me in my post where I called what the author did 'wrong'? I can't see where I did that. "odd" and "it threw me" do not equal "wrong" do they?


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## Deleted member 49710 (Mar 11, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> Let me pose this question: what is more important, a book that is completely punctuated correctly but tells a boring story, or a book that seems to have some unorthodox uses of punctuation and writing techniques, but keeps your nose to the grind stone to the end?


Unorthodox uses of punctuation are fine with me. I even like them. But if I see incorrect punctuation on the first page, I'm not going any farther. How do I tell the difference? you might ask. If there's no discernible reason for the non-standard usage, if the usage is inconsistent or clearly misplaced (i.e. a comma in a weird place), or if the error is common (its for it's), I will conclude that the punctuation is incorrect and the writer doesn't know what s/he's doing and hasn't bothered to learn. I will from there leap to the conclusion that the writer is probably bad and so is the book. And I won't read it.


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## Lewdog (Mar 11, 2013)

Foxee said:


> Lew, please show me in my post where I called what the author did 'wrong'? I can't see where I did that. "odd" and "it threw me" do not equal "wrong" do they?



I was referring to your after thought where you said, "_Nobody is perfect. I'm willing to put up with some mistakes if a story if really, really great..."

_From taking your post as a whole, it makes it seem as if you are saying that Charles Frazier had done it wrong, as reference to a few mistakes, however you stuck with it and finished the book.


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## Sam (Mar 11, 2013)

amsawtell said:


> All the "how-to" books and classes (I have a bachelor's) I've had on writing offer exactly the same advice that this site offers, only more in-depth.  If you want to argue that the advice offered on this site isn't beneficial or that it's trivial then by all means, go ahead.  I just think that you're now working at cross-purposes.
> 
> I agree that learning the craft of writing is best done by reading the masters and then writing your own works.  Writing well takes practice and familiarity.
> 
> But one of the best tools I took away from those classes and "how-to" books was the ability to read and think critically about writing.  I learned the art of noticing the craft.  I learned revision from those classes and I learned that discussion of the craft is vital.



I have a BA in English and history and I'm working on a master's degree in English. I'm not seeing the relevance here. I didn't learn how to write by someone else telling me how they thought I should write. I learned by extensive reading and writing. I had written seven novels totalling close to a million words before I even knew what a writing forum was. I'm not saying all advice given/received on such mediums is trivial or unimportant; I'm saying there's a country mile of difference between someone saying, "I don't think this sentence works in relation to everything else I read so far in this piece", and someone else saying, "Don't use adverbs! You're an amateur if you do!" Or: "Go through your novel and remove every occurrence of 'was' because I heard that it constituted weak writing". 

That's what I, and several other people, are talking about in this thread. I don't mind guidelines for aspiring authors. It's always good to have an idea of what does/doesn't work. For instance, I might tell a first-time author to think long and hard about using a prologue given that quite a few people are inclined to skip them. That's a guideline. When I say, "Don't use prologues because nobody reads them," that is a definitive statement and a generalisation. Likewise, when someone says, "Don't use another dialogue tag in lieu of 'said'", that is exactly the same. 

By that same token, every piece of advice which contains the word 'don't' or 'you can't' should be taken with a huge pinch of salt. One particular treasure popped up on a forum recently: "Don't start your novel with dialogue. It's amateurish". Just like that, whoever wrote this has painted with the same brush every successful novelist of the last two centuries who started their novel with dialogue. How on earth can anyone justify such a lofty generalisation?


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## Terry D (Mar 11, 2013)

I've taken creative writing classes, but the instructor never tried to teach students 'how' to write, they usually just exposed us to each other's writing and asked that we write and critique.  I've also read many books on writing.  I won't call them 'how-to' books (other than maybe Strunk and White), I'd call them 'how-I-do-it' books.  For me reading an author's thoughts on how his creative process works is nearly as fascinating as reading his stories.

You can look at a fine cabinet and see the end result of the cabinet maker's work--you can even tear it apart and see how it was put together--but the thing you can't see is the technique he used to manipulate his tools.  You can only learn that by trying it yourself, or by listening to the cabinet maker.  Listening to those who've gone before shortened my learning curve.


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## Lewdog (Mar 11, 2013)

"Moby Dick" starts with dialogue though it's somewhat of an obscure novel, you may have never heard of it.

I think the reason I like writing, is because I can't draw, paint, or play music.  Other than those, I like the idea of creating something with my creativity that others might enjoy.  I also like the idea that there are rules, but to quote Captain Barbosa, "the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules."

That's how I view writing, more like an unwritten (ha the irony!) code, than rules.


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## Sam (Mar 11, 2013)

There was another one that came up too: "Don't start your novel with a single word. It reeks of amateurishness and triteness". 

I just opened _The Bodies Left Behind _by Jeffery Deaver and his first paragraph contains the word 'silence'. Deaver worked as a journalist for ten years before quitting to write full time. He's a three-time recipient of the Steel Dagger award for best novel of the year, two-time Nero Wolfe award winner, and once a winner of the Ellery Queen award for best thriller of the year. He's written over thirty novels in his career and regularly tops the _New York Times _best-seller lists. He's recently been commissioned to write the next three James Bond novels and half a dozen of his pieces have been made into films. 

I guess that does make him an amateur and trite.


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## Foxee (Mar 11, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> I was referring to your after thought where you said, "_Nobody is perfect. I'm willing to put up with some mistakes if a story if really, really great..."
> 
> _From taking your post as a whole, it makes it seem as if you are saying that Charles Frazier had done it wrong, as reference to a few mistakes, however you stuck with it and finished the book.


That part was not about Cold Mountain. First paragraph was about Cold Mountain. Second paragraph was about the post I was quoting.


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## Lewdog (Mar 11, 2013)

Foxee said:


> That part was not about Cold Mountain. First paragraph was about Cold Mountain. Second paragraph was about the post I was quoting.



You should have put the second paragraph in italics so I would have known it was a different thought...


:rofl:


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## JosephB (Mar 11, 2013)

amsawtell said:


> All the "how-to" books and classes (I have a bachelor's) I've had on writing offer exactly the same advice that this site offers, only more in-depth.  If you want to argue that the advice offered on this site isn't beneficial or that it's trivial then by all means, go ahead.



In this section of the forum, I’d say much of the “advice” is pretty banal and not of much value -- OK for conversation maybe. That goes for a lot of general writing advice. And I’m not excluding what I have to say here either.  In the areas where people post for critique, it’s a different story. Context makes all the difference.


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## Staff Deployment (Mar 11, 2013)

Kevin said:


> Tags are archaic and passe'. They're like cheating because your prose is not good enough to hold a descriptive dialog. There, I've said it. Throw your rotten tomatoes (I'd aim for the head and the groin)



whizzzzzz SPLAT now go change your pants

oh don't worry, I agree with you, I just happened to have this rotten tomato lying around and was looking for an excuse


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## Nee (Mar 11, 2013)

Terry D said:


> I've taken creative writing classes, but the instructor never tried to teach students 'how' to write, they usually just exposed us to each other's writing and asked that we write and critique.  I've also read many books on writing.  I won't call them 'how-to' books (other than maybe Strunk and White), I'd call them 'how-I-do-it' books.  For me reading an author's thoughts on how his creative process works is nearly as fascinating as reading his stories.
> 
> You can look at a fine cabinet and see the end result of the cabinet maker's work--you can even tear it apart and see how it was put together--but the thing you can't see is the technique he used to manipulate his tools.  You can only learn that by trying it yourself, or by listening to the cabinet maker.  Listening to those who've gone before shortened my learning curve.



That's how all my mentors taught. Also, having the class deconstruct passages from great novels together is another way of teaching how to write--which was something I kind of did any way but, in a class setting provided many views on the project instead of only my own.

I still dismantle the odd scene with writer friends on occasion: it's fun--especially, those writers we hate.


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## Nee (Mar 11, 2013)

amsawtell said:


> All the "how-to" books and classes (I have a bachelor's) I've had on writing offer exactly the same advice that this site offers, only more in-depth.  If you want to argue that the advice offered on this site isn't beneficial or that it's trivial then by all means, go ahead.  I just think that you're now working at cross-purposes.
> 
> I agree that learning the craft of writing is best done by reading the masters and then writing your own works.  Writing well takes practice and familiarity.
> 
> But one of the best tools I took away from those classes and "how-to" books was the ability to read and think critically about writing.  I learned the art of noticing the craft.  I learned revision from those classes and I learned that discussion of the craft is vital.



And learning directly from masters is better still


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## Tiberius (Mar 11, 2013)

JosephB said:


> You're the one trying too hard -- trying to make a point by manufacturing a horrible example. That's just bad writing. No one here or anyone in his right mind would advocate tagging every single line of dialog and replacing every instance of "said" with an alternative -- what you did. Alternatives can be used effectively in small doses -- of course, it's possible to misuse or overuse _anything._ And the idea that readers actually get "taken out of the story" by an occasional alternative tag is an example of how writers lose their objectivity by over-thinking things -- a reader just isn't going to notice it. This "only use said" thing is just another one of those useless canards propagated and magnified on writing forums. It can be safely ignored.



That's my point.  I never said you should ONLY use "said".  I'm just saying that if 95% of what you have is "said" and then you have words like, "cried" "exclaimed" "sobbed" etc for the remaining 5%, your work will be much better.


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## Rustgold (Mar 12, 2013)

Tiberius said:


> That's my point.  I never said you should ONLY use "said".  I'm just saying that if 95% of what you have is "said" and then you have words like, "cried" "exclaimed" "sobbed" etc for the remaining 5%, your work will be much better.



Well, besides the rule being flawed (to a degree), your sample paragraph wasn't good.  Read the responses below #58 for evidence.


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## Tiberius (Mar 12, 2013)

I know it wasn't good.  It was a quick example, just meant to illustrate that if you go out of your way to avoid using "said" you'll just draw attention to itself.


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## Staff Deployment (Mar 12, 2013)

In the last thing I wrote, these are the tags I used
(it's present tense, sue me)

Demands
Says
(blank)
Says
Says
(blank)
(blank)
(blank)
(blank)
(blank)
Says
Says
Slithers

How exactly does one slither words? _With reptilian sibilance. That's how, don't question me._

Anyone else wanna venture a sample of their own?


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## Sam (Mar 12, 2013)

Tiberius said:


> That's my point.  I never said you should ONLY use "said".  I'm just saying that if 95% of what you have is "said" and then you have words like, "cried" "exclaimed" "sobbed" etc for the remaining 5%, your work will be much better.



You wanna tell that to the hundreds and thousands of published authors who use dialogue tags other than 'said' 95% of the time? It's quite preposterous to suggest that work is 'better' because someone only uses 'said'. It beggars belief that _anyone _could judge a novel based on whether or not someone used the 'correct ratio' for dialogue tags.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Mar 12, 2013)

[snippety]

most of the time I try to use actions, and I do use "said" more than other tags (in other sections more than this), but there are moments when I feel like something a little more descriptive is desirable. Maybe I'm a bad bad writer.


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## Olly Buckle (Mar 12, 2013)

I can not help feeling there is a degree of cross purpose here Sam, 'judging a novel based on whether or not someone used the 'correct ratio' for dialogue tags.' is not the same as feeling that it might be improved by by a more judicious mix. Making the judgement whether a novel stands or falls merely on such a basis would, as you say, beggar belief, that a novel might become more readable with a judicious mix is not inconceivable. 
These, it seems to me, are the main valid points which have been made.

Religiously avoiding "Said" and indulging in a search for more and more unlikely replacements is likely to detract from the actual dialogue (Which after all is the main event, not the tag"

Using "Said" throughout is unlikely to catch much attention from the reader, we as writers are much more likely to notice such things.

Other words used occasionally are more likely to have an impact than they are if the author pounds his readers with them.

And finally the Golden Rule --- There are no Golden Rules --- Each piece of writing is an individual one and decisions about it should be taken on an individual basis to suit that particular piece, words such as 'Probably' and 'Likely' should always be used in offering advice on writing, and if not used they should be implied.

Speaking for myself it is the fact that the value of my work will be assessed according to my judgement rather than according to how well I apply a set of rules that makes writing attractive, going through it afterwards and ensuring I have applied the rules of grammar and spelling is the tedious bit. One day I tell myself I will indulge myself by writing a book pertaining to originate from some precocious seven year old, and indulge wildly in spelling errors and bad grammar.


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## JosephB (Mar 12, 2013)

Sam, I totally got what you were saying.


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## Sam (Mar 12, 2013)

Olly, I was responding to Tiberius' claim that work will be 'better' if you only use 'said' as a dialogue tag. For me, that is an utterly untenable claim. How can anybody state definitively that quality of work is predicated on whether or not an author doesn't use 'asked' or 'replied' or 'questioned' but sticks with 'said'? That is the sort of pseudo writer-talk that irritates me to no end. Perhaps Tiberius would like to label as poor the work of every author for the last two centuries? Because that's exactly what one does when they start making definitive statements. 

As with everything in this world, overuse should (emphasis on should) be avoided. That doesn't mean that you pull out a red pen and strike off every tag save 'said'. There's being practical and there's being plain ridiculous.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Mar 12, 2013)

Olly Buckle said:


> As for the 'said', yes you can replace it, but make sure it is with a speech related word such as 'shouted'. Too often I see things like 'he giggled', people do not 'giggle' words.



I disagree.  I think this is an efficient way of conveying an emotion/action, since the reader will understand what you meant.  After all, if I say someone "jumped at the opportunity," no one will think I mean they left the ground.  Why say, "he said with a giggle" when you can just say "he giggled"?



Sam said:


> There was another one that came up too: "Don't start your novel with a single word. It reeks of amateurishness and triteness".
> 
> I just opened _The Bodies Left Behind _by Jeffery Deaver and his first paragraph contains the word 'silence'. Deaver worked as a journalist for ten years before quitting to write full time. He's a three-time recipient of the Steel Dagger award for best novel of the year, two-time Nero Wolfe award winner, and once a winner of the Ellery Queen award for best thriller of the year. He's written over thirty novels in his career and regularly tops the _New York Times _best-seller lists. He's recently been commissioned to write the next three James Bond novels and half a dozen of his pieces have been made into films.
> 
> I guess that does make him an amateur and trite.



No, it makes his opening amateurish and trite.  Experienced people can still do amateurish things.


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