# Any theology buffs? Wondering about sin.



## badjoke (Aug 19, 2010)

So, I'm interested in the history of religious thought on the concept of sin. Not necessarily original sin, although that's fine, too, but just the concept of sin in general. I plan on using it in a book that I'm working on, if the research pans out. Historical, contemporary sources, whatever you can throw at me. At the moment I'm just browsing Amazon for books, but if anybody who knows about it could give me a pointer to the must-reads so I don't end up paging through the dreck first, that would be super.


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## The Backward OX (Aug 19, 2010)

You might get more mileage from joining a theology forum or two. When I want specific information, I frequently look for forums about the topic. I even found one about wagon wheels.


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## badjoke (Aug 19, 2010)

That's a pretty good idea. I'm not surprised there's a message board about wagon wheels, haha. I used to write message boards on inactive forums for 10 cents a pop (yeah I was unemployed at the time and scrounging lol) and you'd be surprised what there are forums about.


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## seigfried007 (Aug 30, 2010)

Didn't see this earlier but I'm also still not sure exactly what you're after.

Sin is just the "Do nots" of law; it's everything someone isn't supposed to do. "Sin" just has a religious connotation as opposed to a national one, but the differences are not as huge as they might seem.

Sin is more an issue of the individual's soul/consciousness and how some behaviours negatively impact the person and should thus be avoided; whereas social order laws are more concerned with the overall wellbeing of the nation. What is good for one is often good for both unless the nation is setting itself against the souls of its people (decreasing freedoms, increasing cing economic burden, persecution, etc). Even then, its argued that the nation would prosper more if not signing into law such people-damaging practices.

When a theocracy is in place, both soul-oriented and society-oriented laws are put into practice and thus anything that might be seen as counterproductive is viewed of not only as unlawful but also sinful (homosexuality in a society trying to build its numbers). 

Old Testament law is a prime example of soul-laws getting lost in layers of society-laws. Due to the legalistic nature of people involved, a lot of things were spelled out beyond those basic Ten Commandments (which worked as both types of laws, being pertinent to the wellbeing of society and the soul) to the point where what to eat/not eat and basic hygiene were written into law. 

As time has passed, the notion of sin has become more set apart from the laws of society and also been greatly simplified, even to the point where Christ instituted, in place of the old laws, three new commandments, none of which governed 'do nots'. The Catholic Church has boiled all of the old laws (and everything else for that matter) into seven basic behaviors and attitudes to avoid (and also a few lists of virtues)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Virtues
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins


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## Foxee (Aug 30, 2010)

It's interesting to see the different takes on a three-letter word.

I've understood sin to mean 'missing the mark', not meeting God's standards (or to a lesser degree our own or another's). There are biblical references to sinning against God, against another person, or against oneself.


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## garza (Aug 30, 2010)

Different cultures and different religions have different ideas about what sin is. Here is the general Christian idea.

Sin has nought to do with rules, regulations, commandments, and such, except as indicators.

Sin is separation from God. The 613 laws in the Old Testament, including the Ten Commandments, are an effort to correct the tendency of the people involved to separate themselves from the God they were supposed to be following.  

Consider this analogy. If every driver of every vehicle on the road co-operated fully with every other driver, and had sense enough not to run faster than road conditions or his abilities permitted, there would be no need for traffic laws. 

Adam and Eve sinned _before_ they ate the fruit. Eating the fruit was the manifestation. The talking snake told them it was okay to eat the fruit, and the moment they decided the talking snake was telling the truth, they moved themselves away from God. Eating or not eating the fruit became unimportant. If they had decided that that the talking snake was correct, and that eating the fruit would really be okay, but also decided _not_ to eat the fruit, the sin would be the same. Breaking the rule wasn't the sin, but merely the outward sign that they had sinned.

The New Testament reinforces that point. Matthew 5:28 - (AV1611) - _But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart._

Breaking the law isn't the sin. The sin happens in the mind of the person.

The idea that sin is breaking a law, a purely legalistic point of view, was, and continues to be to a large extent, the belief among Orthodox Jews.

The story is told of the 90-year-old man lying on his deathbed laughing to himself at the way he had, from childhood, tricked the world. He had realised when very, very, young, that he was evil, but had decided to fool everyone into believing that he was really a good person. So all of his life he behaved in a way that led people to think of him as kindhearted, generous, a hard worker ready to lend a hand whenever needed, and all the while he thought of how he would like to smash the faces of the people he disliked, all the while knowing he was selfish and lazy, but determined not to let the world see his true nature. So as he came to the end of a long life, with his last thoughts he laughed at the way he had fooled them all, and had gotten away with it to the very end.

From a legalistic point of view he was a good man. From the viewpoint expressed in the words of Jesus, he was a sinner bound for hell.  

Take your pick.


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## Foxee (Aug 30, 2010)

Good idea to do your own research, badjoke, looks like there won't be a definitive answer that we all agree on.


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## garza (Aug 30, 2010)

If you google for 'sacred texts' you'll get everything you need, from original texts to commentary.

How did that other post get in twice? ...get in twice? 

Someone from an alternate universe is playing games with the server.

Or it's the Little People.


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## badjoke (Aug 31, 2010)

Thanks for all ze responses, humanzoids.

Having been raised in a pretty strict evangelical household, I'm familiar with sin from a lay perspective. I'm more interested in coming at it from a hardcore theology POV. This is, as you all said, a ridiculously huge topic, and the ideas that I have now will probably be murdered and their remains spread over miles of wasteland by the time I finish my research, but maybe new ideas will crawl from their remains...like maggots! yay maggots. I kind of have a habit of trying to tackle huge things. I think what I'm going to do is start reading some basic theology and going from there. Maybe check out City of God and some Kierkegaard (sp?). I want to look at the Christian (Catholic/protesant both) perspective first, because I guess that's the perspective that's more ingrained in me, but I'd also be interested in exploring the concept to the degree that it may exist in other religions and belief systems.

Good tip on that site, garza! It looks like it has a lot of great stuff to explore. I also just remembered that, what with the whole raised-in-very-strict-household-had-to-go-sit-in-the-bathroom-at-friend's-bday-party-while-they-watched-beauty-and-the-beast-cause-witches-yeah-that-strict thing, my mother has lots of commentary and bible companion etc. books, in the margins of which she has written at varying levels of legibility! jackpot.


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## The Backward OX (Aug 31, 2010)

_"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."_

Having read what the thread is really about, this may be slightly off-topic, but I defy anyone to say they have lived a life 100% free of impure thought. We are all sinners.


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## garza (Aug 31, 2010)

Me? Have impure thoughts? Never!


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## Baron (Aug 31, 2010)

The Backward OX said:


> _"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."_
> 
> Having read what the thread is really about, this may be slightly off-topic, but I defy anyone to say they have lived a life 100% free of impure thought. *We are all sinners*.


 
Are you having an epiphany?


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## seigfried007 (Aug 31, 2010)

So, did you ever decide exactly what the question was about? A narrower focus might help; you can always build onto it later.


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## badjoke (Aug 31, 2010)

I think in this case I have to begin the research in order to find the focus. So...I'll probably come back with one! Eventually! Or probably by the time I have a better grasp of what the hell I'm talking about, I'll also have a grasp of what to do about it.

Any suggestions on some basic Christian theology to read beyond the sacred texts website would be useful, though, if anyone knows any.

Anyway. Yeah. I'm having impure thoughts _right now_.


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## garza (Aug 31, 2010)

I paid my way through graduate school researching material for an undergraduate course on the early history of the church, so if you are interested in the foundations of Christian theology I can search and recommend the best sites. The period I know best is from 70 to 325 CE. Earlier this year, just out of curiosity, I researched the beginnings of the Protestant Reformation before Martin Luther. 

Remember, there were many different versions of the Jesus story in the early days, which is why Emperor Constantine called the First Council of Nicaea in 325 and told the bishops to get together and agree on one story, which they almost did. The loopholes they left have haunted Christian theologians ever since. That was  also the Council that decided on which books ought to be in the New Testament. 

Now when you say 'basic Christian theology' you have to understand that there really is no such thing. What I gave in an earlier post comes close as far as sin is concerned, but does not cover all the bases, including the concept of 'salvation'. As a child I attended Mass in a Roman Catholic church and Sunday School and worship service in a Baptist church every Sunday, plus Pentecostal Holiness revivals three or four times a year, plus Sabbath evening services Friday nights. Give me a more specific area you want to know about and I will help you all I can.

And you don't have to worry about me being partial to one belief or another. I'm an atheist, so it's all one to me.


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## Foxee (Aug 31, 2010)

Garza, it's scaring me that you're such an expert on sin.


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## garza (Sep 1, 2010)

Sin is something I know about from reading books on the subject. Having led a spotless life, pure in thought and deed, I must rely on what others have written on the subject. Also I have, on occasion, sat in bars drinking a ginger ale and listening to the sinners brag about their exploits.


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## Lamperoux (Sep 1, 2010)

well, there are sources. But every religion treats sin differently you know. Christians consider it an offense agasint god. 
Muslims say that forgetting to preform daily rituals is a sin moreso than the actual foregoing of it. You might have alto f research to do because it is a large part of theology.


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