# Underage Sex in a Novel?



## JasoninNV (Nov 30, 2019)

Hey all. Haven't been active much lately, life has gotten in the way and I haven't had much time to put in to my writing.
I had a question about this topic. I am writing a novel that intertwines two timelines, one of which is current and based on my life.
Part of the story would take place say in mid to late high school. How does one approach sex in those circumstances, considering it would legally be children? Is it best to leave it out, dance around it. Even if it's an accurate account of my life?
I want to be as accurate and truthful as possible yet I don't want to come across as some pedo or go to jail for child pornography.

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## seigfried007 (Nov 30, 2019)

You can write it all day long, but you can't post it here. For all practical purposes, God grants genitals to good boys and girls on their 18th birthdays (and not one day sooner). 

There are publishers (and self-pubbing) which allow for such things. 

Expect everyone to spit on you and call you a pedobear and blacklist your work as child porn. It won't matter how tastefully you write it, how old the minors are or aren't, if things were consenting or not. 

If you write it at all, you're a filthy, dirty, horrible pedobear for even thinking about the subject of minors getting it on (and a liar, because of course, minors aren't physically able to get it on and would never do such a thing, even if they could). 

If you don't write it, you're either a paragon of normalcy (for not thinking about such things and/or being uncomfortable around such subject matter and/or being terrified of the backlash)... or you're a liar for all of those same reasons (because, of course, it happens and probably shouldn't be shunned and swept under the rug just because it makes people uncomfortable. Sane people know that failure to acknowledge something doesn't make that thing cease to exist, after all).


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## Ma'am (Nov 30, 2019)

JasoninNV said:


> I had a question about this topic. I am writing a novel that intertwines two timelines, one of which is current and based on my life.
> Part of the story would take place say in mid to late high school. How does one approach sex in those circumstances, considering it would legally be children? Is it best to leave it out, dance around it. Even if it's an accurate account of my life?
> I want to be as accurate and truthful as possible yet I don't want to come across as some pedo or go to jail for child pornography.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk



I suggest tracking down similar novels and seeing how they handle the topic to get a good idea of what's okay and what's not.

ETA: But generally, you'd probably just want to make sure it couldn't be considered graphic or erotic/with the intent of "turning people on."


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## luckyscars (Nov 30, 2019)

JasoninNV said:


> I want to be as accurate and truthful as possible yet I don't want to come across as some pedo or go to jail for child pornography.



You won't go to jail for child pornography in the United States because under U.S law, child pornography does not include depictions in novels. Plenty of novels include underage sex in varying degrees of explicit detail. Even some mainstream ones (Stephen King, Brett Easton Ellis, etc) have 'gone there'.

But just because you can do it, of course, doesn't mean you should. How you would come across and whether it's a good idea is really hard to answer without reading the scene(s) themselves and putting them in the context of the overall story. There's a fine line between edgy and creepy.

In general, I think it's best to stay away from graphic portrayals of underage sex unless (1) It is absolutely necessary for the story and (2) You are actually capable of writing it well. You can still most likely accomplish the point without descending into erotica, and consider how including such scenes might impact future opportunities. Many/most mainstream publishers are going to be very cautious about including that stuff, especially from a guy who is -- presumably -- quite a bit older than a high schooler.

 Basically, you're assuming a risk, one that may not be necessary... Is it worth it?


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## seigfried007 (Nov 30, 2019)

As someone who's already been there; done that; experienced the backlash: 

*It's never worth it. 

*Someone is always going to claim your depiction fits under some obscenity clause, or that it's too graphic, or that it's erotic (but no one will admit to being turned on by it _EVAR_--they'll just claim that it's erotic for *_other people_* out there in the ether). 

Everyone puts the line between "edgy" and "creepy" (and, for that matter, "perfectly okay") in totally different places. These lines vary by religion, by state, by country, by era, by individual. For instance, even if a situation is legal in the era/state/country/alternate universe/imaginary realm, you will always be a pervert for depicting it. The state of Delaware had ten-year-olds as totally legal once upon a time, but don't expect to see any epic historical romances involving ten-year-olds set in said era.  

Keep in mind that I've never met a teenager who was offended at their age group being included in the "sexually active" category. The people who get offended are always adults. Teenagers, in my experience, are more offended by adults stifling their sexuality and denying them the capacity of free will and reasoning. 

According to many adults, 18 years minus 1 minute = cannot possibly consent or want sex. But, if the character (or person) in question is 18 years + 1 minute, well, that's a _whole different situation_. Pile on the graphic depictions (as soon as they've got Kleenex and a personal lubricant in hand--they don't want to miss anything, after all).


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## ironpony (Nov 30, 2019)

Okay maybe this is just me, but I don't see why this is so bad.  People underage are having sex all the time in real life, and no one is making a huge scandal out of it as long as they are both minors and not one is an adult.  So it really that bad to describe a sex scene, if no one makes a big deal out of it in real life, and it happens all the time?

I mean in fiction, I read of characters doing terrible things to each other, so I didn't think consensual sex even if underage, would read as that bad, unless I'm wrong?


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## luckyscars (Nov 30, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> As someone who's already been there; done that; experienced the backlash:
> 
> *It's never worth it.
> 
> *



We need to be careful about not leaping to conclusions about a scene we have not read, in a book we have not read, in a writer whose motivations and abilities are not clear. We need to be careful about absolutisms. The OP gave no such indicators as to how they intended on approaching the subject matter.

And... that matters. While it's true that 'everybody's standards are different', to refrain completely -- in the manner you suggest -- from things like the sexual existence of children in fiction is the nail in the coffin of art. More to the point, it's not reflected by reality. Plenty of YA books include 'underage sex' with no issue whatsoever, if by underage we are talking about a couple who are similar in age (say two sixteen year olds) and by sex we mean the broad scope of 'sexuality'. That's, like, every John Green novel ever. Is John Green a creep? Depends. I find him creepy, actually, but legions of teenagers, teachers and parents generally approve. So what do I know? The man's a millionaire, in part from writing about kids who want to bang each other. Likewise, Stephanie Meyer.

On the flipside, of course, you have child rape, incest, pedophilia. Even that _can _be reasonable subject matter. Lolita by Nabokov is controversial, but it's hardly pornographic to most sane-minded people. Stephen King wrote about kid fucking in several books and it didn't do him any harm, presumably because he's quite a good writer and was able to provide reason for including it that was acceptable to enough people.

But yes, if we are talking the True Pedo niche: That of fifteen year old phalluses penetrating fourteen year old vaginas described in raunchy stroke-by-stroke detail...if we are talking Mary-Sue The Teenage Super-Slut screwing her way through the football team...if we are talking Jodie Foster the preteen prostitute staring at her nubbin-boobs in a mirror with hefty descriptions of each nipple...if we are talking about _that _style of lecherous 'Hey Old Man Perv, you can buy and jack off to this and it's okay because it's a book not a video tape', then I agree completely: _That_ shit is not pushing boundaries of writing, it's pushing boundaries of legality and decency and can GTFO forever. The legions of damaged neckbeards who write such things deserve dragged through the mud for hiding their masturbatory fantasies behind the sacred craft of storywriting. I can smell them a mile off -- and they stink.



ironpony said:


> Okay maybe this is just me, but I don't see why this is so bad.  People underage are having sex all the time in real life, and no one is making a huge scandal out of it as long as they are both minors and not one is an adult.  So it really that bad to describe a sex scene, if no one makes a big deal out of it in real life, and it happens all the time?
> 
> I mean in fiction, I read of characters doing terrible things to each other, so I didn't think consensual sex even if underage, would read as that bad, unless I'm wrong?



People do all kinds of things in real life, it doesn't mean those things ought to be promoted as normal in fiction. It comes back to context again. Just because you _can _write about something doesn't mean you _should, _doesn't mean it _deserves _it. 

It comes back to the point of it all. The Ellen Page movie Juno is 'about underage sex' in the sense that it's a story about a girl who gets accidentally impregnated by her friend. It's a romance, of sorts, but at its heart it has a point and that point transcends the sex. There isn't, of course, any explicit sex in it. Which again, prompts the question, to what level is describing sex necessary in any given story? Does the sex actually need to be depicted? What are we trying to say?


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## Bayview (Nov 30, 2019)

I've written several YA novels in which the characters had sex. I had no trouble finding a reputable publisher, the books sold fine, and there have been no issues.

That said, I agree with those who are saying you need to be careful about the way the scene is written _just like you need to be careful about how EVERY scene is written_. What is the effect you're going for? How are you planning to make your readers feel when they read the scene? If you're writing the scene in a way that is designed to titillate, then, yes, there could be an issue for some publishers and some readers. Not LEGAL issues, but issues of taste and/or marketing.


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## seigfried007 (Nov 30, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> We need to be careful about not leaping to conclusions about a scene we have not read, in a book we have not read, in a writer whose motivations and abilities are not clear. We need to be careful about absolutisms. The OP gave no such indicators as to how they intended on approaching the subject matter.
> 
> And... that matters. While it's true that 'everybody's standards are different', to refrain completely -- in the manner you suggest -- from things like the sexual existence of children in fiction is the nail in the coffin of art. More to the point, it's not reflected by reality. Plenty of YA books include 'underage sex' with no issue whatsoever, if by underage we are talking about a couple who are similar in age (say two sixteen year olds) and by sex we mean the broad scope of 'sexuality'. That's, like, every John Green novel ever. Is John Green a creep? Depends. I find him creepy, actually, but legions of teenagers, teachers and parents generally approve. So what do I know? The man's a millionaire, in part from writing about kids who want to bang each other. Likewise, Stephanie Meyer.
> 
> ...


It's not that I don't agree with you, lucky; it's that I've written it and suffered the backlash. I write it--still write it--so I do understand valid reasons for including it. But I also suffer for it. 

Every time you've brought up, you've mentioned this "Does it _really_ need to be there?" sentiment. I understand your reasoning (because I've already written it). "Just because you _can_ doesn't mean you _should._" 

And what I'm saying is that--speaking from my personal experience--the backlash isn't worth it. 

Other people (sane or not) will be offended, and some will stop at pretty much nothing to ruin the author. No matter how tasteful or necessary the scene is, someone out there will still be incredibly offended and lob a ton of awful allegations against the author. And rather than read it for themselves and make their own decisions, other people will hear said allegations, believe them and also jump on the bandwagon to condemn the author. People love to believe the worst about each other and will cheerfully read authorial intent into a piece. In other words, if anyone can possibly construe perversion as a motive/intent of the author, they'll do it, and they'll blab to everyone else they know, and everyone will think the author's a pervert without even necessarily reading the book. 

Nabokov kind of proves my point. I'm not sure if I've ever seen a copy of the book in print, but I've been hearing about the book my whole life--and always (except from you) with the timeless message (from people who've never read the book) that the author is unequivocally a pervert of the highest order. You are the only person I've ever witnessed defend Nabokov. No joke.  

Regarding King, even I've called him out for the "kid fucking." As an abuse survivor, I find his treatment of the subject insulting, gratuitous, and unnecessary. And yet, one could easily argue that I've written far worse, but the issue here is that I know what my intentions were behind writing said scenes. I also know how hard I'm trying to keep everything as tasteful and necessary as possible. I know my justifications for including any given scene. I know that I'm working to include as little detail in as possible and do as much by implication as possible.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Nov 30, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> Nabokov kind of proves my point. I'm not sure if I've ever seen a copy of the book in print, but I've been hearing about the book my whole life--and always (except from you) with the timeless message (from people who've never read the book) that the author is unequivocally a pervert of the highest order. You are the only person I've ever witnessed defend Nabokov. No joke.




Make that two. I've read Lolita. I've also seen both movie versions and I found the James Mason and Jeremy Irons characters creepier than Nabokov's Humbert Humbert to be honest. Writing about a pedophile doesn't make you one any more than writing about Hitler makes you a Nazi. If the latter were true we'd be in a lot of trouble. 


I think the OP is talking about two consenting teenagers if I read it right. I agree with the consensus that it depends on how you write it. The way Juno handled it is probably a good example of talking about sex between two teenagers without making it sound pornographic. In other words don't make it graphic and you should be okay.


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## ironpony (Nov 30, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> People do all kinds of things in real life, it doesn't mean those things ought to be promoted as normal in fiction. It comes back to context again. Just because you _can _write about something doesn't mean you _should, _doesn't mean it _deserves _it.
> 
> It comes back to the point of it all. The Ellen Page movie Juno is 'about underage sex' in the sense that it's a story about a girl who gets accidentally impregnated by her friend. It's a romance, of sorts, but at its heart it has a point and that point transcends the sex. There isn't, of course, any explicit sex in it. Which again, prompts the question, to what level is describing sex necessary in any given story? Does the sex actually need to be depicted? What are we trying to say?



That's true, I was going on the assumption that such a scene may add something.


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## luckyscars (Nov 30, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> It's not that I don't agree with you, lucky; it's that I've written it and suffered the backlash. I write it--still write it--so I do understand valid reasons for including it. But I also suffer for it.



But that's you.

There are plenty of books that cover this subject matter and don't have problems. I mentioned John Green. I mentioned Stephanie Meyer. I mentioned Juno. I could mention a number of other teen romance and other books. It's not like it's uncommon. 

You seem to be saying 'disregard all those countless examples and rely on my experience with my work'. You seem to be thinking of this as though it's an either/or thing, where either people accept kids having sex in writing or they don't and there is no room for subjective evaluation based on context, execution, messaging. That isn't good advice. It just isn't.

If you're receiving a rough reception from your depictions of underage sexuality, it's possible you are either including it gratuitously or writing it in a way that is unnecessarily crude. It's also possible you're showing your work to the wrong audience. It's also possible you're just unfortunate enough to be unfairly maligned. It could be something else. I have no idea why you are getting backlash, but also... this thread isn't about your work.



> Nabokov kind of proves my point. I'm not sure if I've ever seen a copy of the book in print, but I've been hearing about the book my whole life--and always (except from you) with the timeless message (from people who've never read the book) that the author is unequivocally a pervert of the highest order. You are the only person I've ever witnessed defend Nabokov. No joke.



_According to Wikipedia: Many authors consider it the greatest work of the 20th century, and it has been included in several lists of best books, such as Time's List of the 100 Best Novels, Le Monde's 100 Books of the Century, Bokklubben World Library, Modern Library's 100 Best Novels, and The Big Read.
_
If you think I'm the 'only one' who has ever defended Lolita, you might want to widen the scope of who you have conversations with. Or at the very least read the book and form an independent opinion before maligning it/the writer.



> Regarding King, even I've called him out for the "kid fucking." As an abuse survivor, I find his treatment of the subject insulting, gratuitous, and unnecessary. And yet, one could easily argue that I've written far worse, but the issue here is that I know what my intentions were behind writing said scenes. I also know how hard I'm trying to keep everything as tasteful and necessary as possible. I know my justifications for including any given scene. I know that I'm working to include as little detail in as possible and do as much by implication as possible.



I'm not sure what you are referring to. I don't know what scene(s) King has written that involve child abuse that is 'insulting, gratuitous, and unnecessary' and look forward to you providing those examples so we can discuss them. 

King _has_ written about kids having sex -- most notably the infamous 'It gangbang'. But that was not child abuse, unless under some new definition child abuse involves sexual encounters where all the participants are children (which is interesting -- who is abusing who?)

I kind of get the feeling you are approaching this subject more from a personal standpoint than from anything that is really to do with what works in writing for most people. That's fine, but being an 'abuse survivor' doesn't qualify you to critique books you have not read.


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## Cephus (Nov 30, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> You won't go to jail for child pornography in the United States because under U.S law, child pornography does not include depictions in novels. Plenty of novels include underage sex in varying degrees of explicit detail. Even some mainstream ones (Stephen King, Brett Easton Ellis, etc) have 'gone there'.



But funny, when they make movies of TV specials of those works, they always omit those scenes. Go figure.


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## Cephus (Nov 30, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> As someone who's already been there; done that; experienced the backlash:
> 
> *It's never worth it.
> 
> ...



Writers have to keep in mind that the people who have all of the money and all of the political power are the adults, not the kids. It doesn't matter who you're aiming your book at, it's the parents that are going to scream to keep it out of the schools and the libraries and complain to the media and call your publisher and demand it get removed. It absolutely isn't worth it. Now that's not to say you can't mention that it happened, if it's important to the story, but to show any of it, at all, is a terrible idea.


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## Sir-KP (Nov 30, 2019)

There is a fiction (later on adopted into movie) that basically suggested such scene. 

So long you do not describe your sexual act in detailed description, I don't think that counts as porn.

It's still risky however considering people could blow anything into a problem.

So I'd say just suggest the scene. No details.


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## luckyscars (Nov 30, 2019)

Cephus said:


> But funny, when they make movies of TV specials of those works, they always omit those scenes. Go figure.



There's honestly not much to 'go figure'...if you know how the law works. Underage characters tend to be played by underage actors and underage actors participating in sexual scenes on camera creates problems, because U.S courts have consistently drawn lines defining child pornography as involving primarily _images._



Cephus said:


> Writers have to keep in mind that the people who have all of the money and all of the political power are the adults, not the kids. It doesn't matter who you're aiming your book at, it's the parents that are going to scream to keep it out of the schools and the libraries and complain to the media and call your publisher and demand it get removed. It absolutely isn't worth it. Now that's not to say you can't mention that it happened, if it's important to the story, but to show any of it, at all, is a terrible idea.



I find this repeated 'don't do it/it's a terrible idea' stuff really simplistic and without interest in fact. It really just seems like some half-assed polemical. 

Numerous examples have now been provided about wildly successful books that address the subject matter in different ways, to different extents of explicitness. You literally have published authors like Bayview telling you _they have included sex in YA books with no issue' _and you are STILL standing there arguing the 'don't do it' line without providing any evidence. Terrible advice.

Like everything else in writing, the rules in underage characters having sex are the same: Think through the purpose, understand the risks, work on the execution, take the risks you want to take. Blandly parroting 'don't do it' is just tiresome.


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## BornForBurning (Nov 30, 2019)

> Expect everyone to spit on you and call you a pedobear and blacklist your work as child porn. It won't matter how tastefully you write it, how old the minors are or aren't, if things were consenting or not.


Considering the fact that there are many people who have written about such content and not experienced extreme backlash, let me suggest that it was perhaps not the content but the way _you _approached it that turned people off. Take the movie _Dead Calm. _Straight, consenting adults, filmed _tastefully_, and it was vomit-inducing purely because of how the filmmakers approached the scene and the way it was contextualized in the rest of the film. You can't just throw up the "It was tasteful!" "They were consenting!" "They're almost 18!" flags and expect people to receive something positively, because none of those things necessarily say a sex scene isn't completely disgusting. "But maybe that was the point!" screamed Clive Barker atop a squirming pile of bodies. 


> According to many adults, 18 years minus 1 minute = cannot possibly consent or want sex. But, if the character (or person) in question is 18 years + 1 minute, well, that's a _whole different situation. Pile on the graphic depictions (as soon as they've got Kleenex and a personal lubricant in hand--they don't want to miss anything, after all)._


Literally no one believes this. 


> It doesn't matter who you're aiming your book at, it's the parents that are going to scream to keep it out of the schools and the libraries and complain to the media and call your publisher and demand it get removed. It absolutely isn't worth it.


Movies show teens having sex all the time though. And contemporary parents were raised on said media. I mean, I unless you are literally, _physically, _just going to show two people having gratuitous sex I guess that's a different matter. Most people would consider that pornography regardless of the age group. 
do whatever you want just don't be a creep I guess lol


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## JasoninNV (Nov 30, 2019)

Thank you for everyone's input.
To be more specific, it was just going to be a mention of two 17 year olds in high school. I wasn't planning on getting in to extreme detail. There's no age difference, and there was nothing illegal about it when actually happening.
That being said, this book will contain liberal use of foul language, and frequent graphic violence. I'm not so concerned about readers finding something offensive or "morally wrong" in general. There's next to no sex in it, but still if you're easily offended it's not going to be your read. There is going to be a sex scene between two adults, but I still haven't decided how to approach that either. I feel like with the language and violence, it would be a sham to just skip over it like a sheepish nun, but at the same time I don't want and have no intention of being an erotica writer, the story being known as that, or the weird creepers getting their jollies off on my work.
I know writing is fairly protected, but I'm completely new to this and just trying to cover my own hide. But now that it's mentioned, I do remember the scene in Kings "IT"

I wish I could give more of the context to the scene as to the story but it's just something I get uneasy about, as every time I've talked about it I get laughed off of every site. It's borderline spiritual based (though I'm trying to remove that as much as possible).
The story features two intertwining timelines. The teenage scene was a scene that would help tie the two together. But, there will be many tie ins, so maybe the teen sex can be left out. It's not a scene I've even started writing. I'm just getting a lot of the ideas together and realized "technically these are children, this could be creepy or illegal" and was looking for input as to how to handle it.

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## BornForBurning (Nov 30, 2019)

> I wish I could give more of the context to the scene as to the story but it's just something I get uneasy about, as every time I've talked about it I get laughed off of every site. It's borderline spiritual based (though I'm trying to remove that as much as possible).


Don't do that. I know what you are trying to get at. Sex is a spiritual experience. Or at the very least, it is intended as a _transcendent _experience. Uniting of two into one flesh and all that.


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## seigfried007 (Nov 30, 2019)

Cephus said:


> Writers have to keep in mind that the people who have all of the money and all of the political power are the adults, not the kids. It doesn't matter who you're aiming your book at, it's the parents that are going to scream to keep it out of the schools and the libraries and complain to the media and call your publisher and demand it get removed. It absolutely isn't worth it. Now that's not to say you can't mention that it happened, if it's important to the story, but to show any of it, at all, is a terrible idea.



And that's most of what I was trying to get at. The teens themselves don't care; the parents and teachers do, and those are the people who pay for things and make the laws and blacklist authors. 

I wish more people could be mature and accepting about these sorts of things, but that just hasn't been my experience. There are too many highly vocal people out there who get offended by something they simply can't deal with and have to get nasty. Anything involving minors and sex is on the shit list of writing.  

Am I fine with it? Of course. I write it. I'm also pretty damn sure JasoninNV will do a fine job of making said scene just as elegant and tasteful and necessary and all kinds of wonderful as it needs to be. That he shows any kind of concern about the subject whatsoever give me great confidence that he'll treat it respectfully. He gets all the support in the world for me, and I applaud his willingness to ask about it and write it in the first place. I'm never going to shout someone down for writing something controversial. I applaud any author willing to take on controversial subjects. I don't think any subjects should be so taboo as to not be written about. 

My problem isn't with him or the scene or the subject matter--it's with nasty vocal people who can't handle the subject matter and do stupid crap like launch PR campaigns against authors who dare approach said subject matter with a ten-foot pole. The Internet has given a very easy platform for people who 1) get offended, 2) are vocal, 3) love to badmouth stuff they don't understand. And nobody ever makes such people apologize for this stuff. Even if said people are absolutely misconstruing the art in question. Even if they're downright slandering the artist. Or threatening them. And since most people are lazy and go along to get along and aren't willing to do the research or read the book for themselves, they'll believe whoever shouts loudest and gives them the most salacious "news." 

The risks can be enormous, and so I'm not going to blame anyone for not having the cajones to take on controversial subject matter. The payout isn't good; it's not like these sorts of books are guaranteed bestsellers or anything, and they can be difficult to find publishers and agents for. Most people aren't interested in reading about said subjects (smaller audience=less returns for the effort). Said subjects are also easily botched because--no matter which side of what line the author is on--somebody's going to disagree royally with however the author handled the execution. The author didn't go far enough; the author went too far; the author touched it at all. 

There's no winning when writing controversy, and unlike with other books where the worst fate is simply being ignored, an especially controversial book can get an author dead, behind bars, cause him to lose everything he has, start arguments, net him stalkers and abuse and alienation. Huge risks... but what's the reward? Maybe some respect? There won't be more accolades or respect or money--not really--not when compared to all of those other authors who hit the stratosphere writing relatively safe topics that have bigger audiences and broader appeal. 

A lo of it comes down to the reason for the scene's inclusion. Why is the author writing it? If the author needs to write the scene or about the subject for personal reasons, then I'd say the author absolutely should write it--but maybe not publish it. Like any scene--sex scene or otherwise--there ought to be a good reason to include it in the final product. If said scene must be in, I advise to err on the side of subtlety as much as possible. YMMV, and feel free to do it however you wish. 

Regarding older teenagers, there's usually a bit more leeway with PR so long as said teens are roughly the same age, and everything's consensual. The novel being based on personal experiences should also help mitigate criticism (though in the OP's case, care should be taken that the other partner can't be identified--especially if they were also underaged). The younger the character, the more likely someone is to find the scene unbearably offensive. Bigger age gaps and dubious or non-consenting sex are also very likely to offend. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be written about, but it does mean that an author might be seeing some torches and pitchforks in the future. 

As lucky mentioned with Green, an adult writing sex between teenagers is pretty much always going to be viewed as creepy by somebody--even seasoned, mature, understanding writers. However, teenagers writing about sex is often even worse 'cause they can't write as well and tend to err on the side of being hella tastelessly explicit... so yeah, I'd probably rather read sex between teenagers written by adults (unless I want to read something that might be so bad that it's hilarious--like erotica written by virgins).


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## JasoninNV (Nov 30, 2019)

BornForBurning said:


> Don't do that. I know what you are trying to get at. Sex is a spiritual experience. Or at the very least, it is intended as a _transcendent _experience. Uniting of two into one flesh and all that.


Not quite, I wasn't trying to imply the sex is a spiritual experience. 
I was talking more about the plot of the story as a whole.

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## luckyscars (Nov 30, 2019)

JasoninNV said:


> Thank you for everyone's input.
> To be more specific, it was just going to be a mention of two 17 year olds in high school. I wasn't planning on getting in to extreme detail. There's no age difference, and there was nothing illegal about it when actually happening.
> That being said, this book will contain liberal use of foul language, and frequent graphic violence. I'm not so concerned about readers finding something offensive or "morally wrong" in general. There's next to no sex in it, but still if you're easily offended it's not going to be your read. There is going to be a sex scene between two adults, but I still haven't decided how to approach that either. I feel like with the language and violence, it would be a sham to just skip over it like a sheepish nun, but at the same time I don't want and have no intention of being an erotica writer, the story being known as that, or the weird creepers getting their jollies off on my work.
> I know writing is fairly protected, but I'm completely new to this and just trying to cover my own hide. But now that it's mentioned, I do remember the scene in Kings "IT"
> ...



I think it sounds totally fine. Elements make me think of Brett Easton Ellis's brilliant debut novel 'Less Than Zero' - definitely a good read if you want some very morally ambiguous fiction involving teenagers. 

Something that has been sorely missing from this: As many problems as including sex in teenage novels can cause, given how teenage life revolves so heavily around sex it's arguably just as problematic excluding it altogether, right?

Might as well write a war novel in which nobody dies.


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## luckyscars (Nov 30, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> And since most people are lazy and go along to get along and aren't willing to do the research or read the book for themselves, they'll believe whoever shouts loudest and gives them the most salacious "news."



Yeah, about that...I'm still waiting to hear which book it is where you think King treats child abuse in an insulting, gratuitous, and unnecessary manner.



seigfried007 said:


> Regarding King, even I've called him out for the "kid fucking." As an abuse survivor, I find his treatment of the subject insulting, gratuitous, and unnecessary.


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## Dluuni (Dec 1, 2019)

1: Please don't. I mean, you can if you must. Please don't.
2: If you must, use the absolute lowest heat level possible. Closed door is probably fine. Light sizzle is probably going to get you some trouble. Hot might get you some scary consequences.


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## seigfried007 (Dec 1, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> I think it sounds totally fine. Elements make me think of Brett Easton Ellis's brilliant debut novel 'Less Than Zero' - definitely a good read if you want some very morally ambiguous fiction involving teenagers.
> 
> Something that has been sorely missing from this: As many problems as including sex in teenage novels can cause, given how teenage life revolves so heavily around sex it's arguably just as problematic excluding it altogether, right?
> 
> Might as well write a war novel in which nobody dies.


(Psst, I did actually touch on that--even if I so did laced with all kinds of sarcasm and fun such). 

Teenagers are often horny AF. Just because it's "underage" doesn't keep it from happening. I knew a shitton of *ahem* _active_ teenagers. Adults being uncomfortable around the subject doesn't keep teenagers from getting it on and won't decrease teenage pregnancy rates either. It's like saying "abstinence only sex education" works. 

Yeah, it's totally unrealistic to write about modern teenagers in the current American climate without mentioning that *somebody's* cruising for it (if not getting it). No matter how conservative or rural an area is, *somebody* in that age group is getting jiggy with it or very much wanting to be getting jiggy with it.  It's just part of being a teenager. Excluding at least the mention of such things leads to teenager-focused/containing novels being just as unrealistic as not having *somebody* die in a war novel. 

However, mentioning that teens are horny masses of hormones (who are struggling to form their identities and grow up) is very different than jailbait-y pedobear-y scenes of explicit blow-by-blow detail.


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## ironpony (Dec 1, 2019)

One movie I just saw when it comes to whether or not a sex scene should be shown was Pumpkin (2002). In order to talk about the sexual situations, I have to spoil some of the movie:

The movie is about a college sorority house, where the sorority is helping mentally challenged athletes compete in the challenged games.  The main sorority girl character falls in love with the mentally challenged student, she is assigned.  The movie never says, but I think the student is underage compared to her, but I'm just guessing.  They have a really beautiful heartbraking romance together, with the relationship, leading to sex.  However, it shows them kiss, then all of a sudden it's the next morning, and they are in bed, naked, implying they have had sex.

However, I felt this was a huge jump from here to there.  I mean this mentally challenged character, is losing his virginity, to the girl he loves and it's quite the experience for him, so I thought they should have shown the actual sexual experience for them.  But they chose to skip over this emotional moment.

Also, later, when the girls, ex-boyfriend finds out that she left him for her mentally challenged student, she was helping, he gets angry over it, and goes out and gets revenge sex.  They show the revenge sex, or at least a good portion of it.  But I would rather they skip that, and show the other sex scene, cause I would rather see a the sex scene out of love, rather than the one out or revenge.  But maybe the filmmakers felt more comfortable showing us the revenge sex instead, and maybe felt it was less controversial?


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## luckyscars (Dec 1, 2019)

seigfried007 said:


> However, mentioning that teens are horny masses of hormones (who are struggling to form their identities and grow up) is very different than jailbait-y pedobear-y scenes of explicit blow-by-blow detail.



A point which has been constantly stated and agreed upon throughout this thread.


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## luckyscars (Dec 1, 2019)

ironpony said:


> One movie I just saw when it comes to whether or not a sex scene should be shown was Pumpkin (2002). In order to talk about the sexual situations, I have to spoil some of the movie:
> 
> The movie is about a college sorority house, where the sorority is helping mentally challenged athletes compete in the challenged games.  The main sorority girl character falls in love with the mentally challenged student, she is assigned.  The movie never says, but I think the student is underage compared to her, but I'm just guessing.  They have a really beautiful heartbraking romance together, with the relationship, leading to sex.  However, it shows them kiss, then all of a sudden it's the next morning, and they are in bed, naked, implying they have had sex.
> 
> ...



Two good examples of graphic sex featuring underage girls which was depicted extremely explicitly. One from a book, one from a successful and relatively mainstream movie:

- Movie example: Last House On The Left (directed by Wes Craven): In this movie, made in 1972, a seventeen year old girl is raped and murdered by a gang of older men. It's shown pretty graphically. I don't recall actual nudity, but everything short of that. It's horrific and soul-destroying. This happens relatively early in the movie and sets up the ensuing plot, which involves a chance meeting between the girl's stricken parents and the gang. Once the parents realize what has happened and that the gang are responsible, they turn the tables and kill them in equally horrific ways (the mom bites off one of the men's penis and leaves him to bleed to death)

- Book example: The Girl Next Door by Jack Ketchum. A brilliant book loosely based on a true story in which a fourteen (?) year old girl is taken in by a supposedly well-meaning family who live next door to the MC, a younger boy who befriends the girl. The book revolves around the family's rapid descent into psychopathy in which they begin to blame, punish, abuse and ultimately kill the child in their care through terrible and often sexual abuse. There's plenty of graphic description.

Neither of these stories are pleasant to read. Both of them show plenty of pedophilia, abuse, general sexual nastiness. Both of them are 'sexually explicit', to use the Tipper Gore term. But also, in both these cases, the 'sexual explicitness' had to be there. It isn't creepy, nobody is jerking off to these scenes, it's what makes the stories work. Without the horrific 'sex' there is no story. It could NOT be implied, it could NOT be hinted at, it could NOT be watered down. To do so would have made it all pointless. 

Neither of the above examples, as far as I know, has led to their creator's being significantly shunned.

I put this out there not to say that there is endless license to be obscene, but to simply say that _obscenity _itself is a complex and often inconsistent thing. Whether a sex scene smacks of pedophilia or not has little to do with how much or how little a story 'goes there' and everything to do with intent and competency. If a child sex scene comes across as creepy, that is 100% the fault of the writer, either because that writer had unsavory intentions going in or wrote it poorly. It is NOT the fault of the subject matter. There is NO subject matter that is inherently 'bad' or 'gross' or 'nasty'.


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## ironpony (Dec 1, 2019)

I saw The Last House on the Left movie, but have not read The Girl Next Door Book.  However, I feel that rape scenes are a whole new ball game compared to sex scenes that are done out of romance more so, as I thought the OP might have been talking about.


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## luckyscars (Dec 1, 2019)

ironpony said:


> I saw The Last House on the Left movie, but have not read The Girl Next Door Book.  However, I feel that rape scenes are a whole new ball game compared to sex scenes that are done out of romance more so, as I thought the OP might have been talking about.



Definitely. But they still all fall under the banner of 'explicit sexual content' and involve underage people, and my point in mentioning them is that context is the driver. 

In a teenage romance there's probably no real need to show sex in a graphic way because (1) The audience does not expect it (2) The act itself is probably not that important to the story and (3) The framing of children as _erotic _beings as opposed to _sexual _ones is problematic. But in a horror novel where an _extreme _and often _visceral _reaction is needed, excluding the blow-by-blow depiction is necessary. 

So what dictates the difference comes down to the purpose of the story. A romance is, almost by definition, supposed to dance around the edges of sex. A romance is supposed to be about desire more than about fulfillment. But that doesn't mean an audience cannot be exposed to the graphic, the perverse, the depraved even _if, _and only _if, _the story demands it. And sometimes it does.

The point is simply that nothing should be off-limits and writers have to use their best judgment, understanding with the power to create comes the responsibility to create ​effectively.


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## ironpony (Dec 1, 2019)

Yep true, that makes sense.  The story I'm currently working on, is a horror thriller, with a rape in, that leads to revenge later, but I was told that the rape scene was too distasteful and gratuitous to show, and that I should cut it out and have it only be implied.  So I followed the advice of some of the readers and cut it, but not wondering if I should put it back in, since maybe this kind of thing needs to be shown in a thriller to get more of a reaction, for the revenge later.

As for teen romance, yes I would say don't write the sex, unless their is something peculiar or especial about the relationship that demands it.  I thought my example of Pumpkin (2002), had such a peculiar relationship in it, that it sex should have been shown, because of the peculiarity of the relationship.


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