# Combat



## Sam (Mar 30, 2013)

I need a scenario where an ordinary beat cop would be able to stand toe-to-toe with an expertly trained Spec Ops soldier in unarmed combat. I only need to keep the soldier busy for five minutes so another scenario can reach fruition, but we're talking about a Navy SEAL trained in Krav Maga and Filipino Kali. There's just no way the cop could last for the time I need him to, and the five-minute time period has been written into the story for chapters. I could change it but I don't really want to. 

PS: I know that if the cop pulled a weapon and shot the soldier, that would work, but that isn't part of the plan. Is there any other scenario where a cop stands a chance against a SEAL?


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## moderan (Mar 30, 2013)

Depends on the cop's background. If you postulate military experience, sure. And there's always the lucky-punch sort of thing, but that's a bit of a copout. If your said cop is a war vet with, say, Gold Glove or martial arts competition in his past, then he'd be well able to defend himself. And lots of cops in the US have just such things under their belts along with the donuts.


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## Sam (Mar 30, 2013)

Thanks, Mod. 

He has a military background: he served as a Marine in the Gulf War. Problem is, from what I've read the military weren't trained then as they are now. Krav Maga is all about taking out an enemy as fast as possible by using nerve points and weak spots; and Filipino Kali is about using the environment to your advantage. With that kind of background, realistically the fight would be over fast . . . unless the opponent is trained in similar martial arts. I'm trying to get it as realistic as possible, but I might have to sacrifice some of that to move the storyline along. 

Or maybe I'm over-thinking.


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## moderan (Mar 30, 2013)

The opponent could just be bigger, or faster, or more determined, or lucky, or whatever. I do think overthink is your bugaboo here.


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## Kevin (Mar 30, 2013)

I don't know what the hand to hand combat training of the NavySeal currently is  but a few years ago one came into the gym with some sort of 'production crew'. They wanted to film him sparring with one of the trained boxers. They told Johhny (the boxer) to go ahead and open up on him. It wasn't pretty. It also wasn't 'true' combat. Johhny has this particular technique where he won't allow you to close with him. You run into a fist every time and as many times as you persist. He's very good at it (regardless of opponent size) He trains all the time. I'm sure that similarly any practioner of any of the arts that involve full-contact training, including the grappling arts would do better than someone that is not as trained. One year of training (generally) is not enough to beat someone with many years. There is the possible advantage of trying to go for the kill but that might be difficult when already ko'd.    I love this subject, speculation or no...

some more...five minutes is a long time. I mean one good punch and your brain is rattled and then you become incapacitated. If you're caught in a choke or arm-bar the jig is similarly up. A wrestling match where neither one can quite get the upper hand could do it.


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## Rustgold (Mar 30, 2013)

Five minutes is a lifetime in any non-ring fight.  Two complete novices who can't punch might be able to fight for a minute or two; but upping the skills shortens fight life expectancy to 30 seconds tops (and often 2 to 5 seconds).

That's reality.

But the question you must ask is whether you can suspend reality for the story.  Pretty much every fight scene in any popular novel I've read does.


Edit: Maybe you could get the cop to find a length of 4x4 lying around and hold off the solder for a bit.


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## Foxee (Mar 30, 2013)

Circumstances could play really big into any altercation, no matter who the combatants are. Street fighting is dirty and if your cop has some of that in his background (or even just in his head) then even something as desperate as throwing dirt in the other guys' eyes might help (provided some is available, I've no idea where the fight takes place) and even the best fighting techniques in the world are sometimes just no match for the unexpected if it happens at the right time. Throwing stuff can work out sometimes.

Considering that, I would think that anything that might turn the fight in the cop's favor might have to happen very quickly at the beginning of the fight. Special Ops guys are clever operations tacticians, well-trained, and tough but they are still human men (making them totally invincible would be a mistake). If the cop can rattle the soldier's brain, get at his groin, and/or temporarily blind him then he's got a chance. If he's stupid enough to keep pressing that momentary advantage (rather than getting the hell out of Dodge!) then he might have some luck hanging in there for five minutes. If the cop maybe was a wrestler in high school and college or something he could perhaps hold the other guy, too, which should help wait out the clock here and there.

This could be a real humdinger of a fight, not a quick wash-out. Help your cop be lucky, quick, and determined enough to make a difference before he probably gets the big hurt put on him. And let the Special Ops guy be human. I think this could be a fantastic part of the story, one I'd read avidly if it's believable and well-written.


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## Robert_S (Mar 30, 2013)

Ordinary beat cops don't have military training, at least not the majority. You're going to have to give the cop an edge (melee weapon, fight training, something). I just don't think the everyday cop could handle a seasoned spec ops soldier.


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## ppsage (Mar 30, 2013)

Banana peels.

Or rotten floor board, or loose step. Local terrain knowledge advantage.


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## DPVP (Mar 30, 2013)

Personally, batons are great, they let a little guy with some training beat a bigger unarmed guy with more like a red headed step child. 
Also fighting with bare hands when their are improvised weapons around is stupid. Have the cop be smarter and pull out his baton, asp, ( the wooden batons work best) and go casino on him. Old style cops where quite proficient at it.


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## Nickleby (Mar 30, 2013)

The other posts seem reasonable. You have two basic choices, and you can use both.

One, give the Seal a handicap. Maybe he's been drugged, wounded, surprised, or all three. Something has slowed him down so that the cop has a decent shot at beating him.

Two, give the cop an advantage. Maybe he knows the terrain and can hide somewhere. Maybe he has an ally/partner. Maybe he takes jiu-jitsu lessons with his son. Maybe he's been saving up his luck for this one encounter.

Bottom line: You've built up the Seal to be unstoppable. Something has to stop him, or you have to make him stoppable. You're the writer, it's your call.


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## Topper88 (Apr 1, 2013)

"When outmatched, cheat." - Ancient kung fu secret

I don't care how competent you are at fighting, if you get a handful of glass shards thrown in your eyes and get a couple blows to the groin while distracted by the aforementioned glass, you're going down. 

The SEAL may not be expecting resourcefulness on the beat cop's part, and/or he may be too confident to give 100% of his focus on the fight (tortoise and the hare). Assuming we're supposed to root for the cop, giving the cop an inherent advantage over the SEAL (like a weapon) would blunt his victory in the fight. Since there are no rules in a street fight and the resources available to the cop are also available to the SEAL, being smart enough to use the resources wouldn't be considered an advantage, it's using your mind to take down a superior opponent.


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## Angelwing (Apr 1, 2013)

Surprise can give a lesser opponent the edge in fights and battle. So could knowledge of your surroundings. A home court/field advantage so to speak. Both of these could give the cop the advantage. For example, maybe there's a certain part of a sidewalk, floor, or ground that the cop is used to going over, and it has some irregularity (maybe unexpected bump or dip, or loose piece-anything you could destabilize yourself on). The cop remembers it, passes over it, but the SEAL doesn't, so he looses footing/is distracted by the loose footing, and gets hit in the meantime.


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## luckyscars (Apr 1, 2013)

Howabout if the cop had some kind of weapon? Not a gun, like you say, but something less lethal and more melee based. I'm thinking like a pole or other striking implement. Even a knife. A baton could work. Even pepper spray (only a spec ops soldier could overcome an adversary with a faceful of mace). Something that would give him (the cop) a definite edge...


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## Angelwing (Apr 1, 2013)

I'm not so sure a SEAL could NOT be affected by pepper spray. I mean, some arse sprayed someone else's in the corner of the classroom a couple of weeks ago (I wasn't in there but heard about it) and even people farther away still were feeling some mild effects. So imagine if it's sprayed right into your nose, mouth, and eyes point blank...

Maybe they adapt to it? I dunno for sure.


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## Robert_S (Apr 1, 2013)

Pepper spray is pretty harsh. Some SEALs may be able to tough it out, but there will be an affect.  I saw a youtube video of a seal taking 2-3 simultaneous hits from tasers and kept standing, perhaps walked a bit. He wasn't taking a midday stroll through the park at all. He managed some movement, but he was definitely compromised.


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## DPVP (Apr 1, 2013)

Angelwing said:


> I'm not so sure a SEAL could NOT be affected by pepper spray. I mean, some arse sprayed someone else's in the corner of the classroom a couple of weeks ago (I wasn't in there but heard about it) and even people farther away still were feeling some mild effects. So imagine if it's sprayed right into your nose, mouth, and eyes point blank...
> 
> Maybe they adapt to it? I dunno for sure.



Sprays are weird. usually they work, but some random segment of the population is fine and not bothered by them. i remember a little cadet that seemed unfazable, pepper spray, tear gas, ghost peppers, no problem. granted having to fight after being sprayed is part of a lot of training programs, chances are the cop in the story had to do it at academy. 
then you get the people that are hopped up on something and it does squat against them.


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## Angelwing (Apr 1, 2013)

DPVP said:


> Sprays are weird. usually they work, but some random segment of the population is fine and not bothered by them. i remember a little cadet that seemed unfazable, pepper spray, tear gas, ghost peppers, no problem. granted having to fight after being sprayed is part of a lot of training programs, chances are the cop in the story had to do it at academy.
> then you get the people that are hopped up on something and it does squat against them.



And here I was thinking that a paramilitary bad guy able to take multiple sprays of pepper spray and be fine in this one movie was just hollywood!


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## Shylock (Dec 2, 2013)

My MACP instructor said that veteran fighters like SEAL's will completely dominate their opponent 19 times out of 20; however, no one is invulnerable. A reasonably strong man can catch a master with their guard down and suckerpunch them. Plus, these kind of head to head fights are usually really, really quick; over in about a minute. 
 Though I did see a company champion heavyweight wrestling match back at basic that lasted almost 17 minutes. The Drill Sergeant overseeing said that it was an _insane _exception, and that the only reason it went that long was because of strict rules, no striking, incredible stamina, and very equally matched. To emphasize, both fighters were in incredible physical shape yet were literally _dead _tired after the first six minutes.

Hope this helps!


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## FleshEater (Dec 2, 2013)

I'm sure Sam has already figured this out, but in case anyone else looks, I'd say the reason the SEAL will/would dominate is because they're trained to fight with 100% effort like their life depends on it. 

A real life situation though could be handled by that one lucky move that allowed the opposition to bury their thumbs into the SEAL's eyes. Dirty fighting would be the only way an untrained fighter would stand a chance. Testicles, throat, and eyes.


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## Sam (Dec 2, 2013)

Yeah, that's what I chose. My cop went for the SEAL's eyes and then the knees, allowing him some leeway to get in a couple of cheap punches. He kept the SEAL disoriented for a minute or so, but the next three or four were a combination of dumb luck and good dodging. In the end, the SEAL judo-threw him to the ground and finished it with a blood choke.


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## Morkonan (Dec 2, 2013)

Sam said:


> I need a scenario where an ordinary beat cop would be able to stand toe-to-toe with an expertly trained Spec Ops soldier in unarmed combat. I only need to keep the soldier busy for five minutes so another scenario can reach fruition, but we're talking about a Navy SEAL trained in Krav Maga and Filipino Kali. There's just no way the cop could last for the time I need him to, and the five-minute time period has been written into the story for chapters. I could change it but I don't really want to.
> 
> PS: I know that if the cop pulled a weapon and shot the soldier, that would work, but that isn't part of the plan. Is there any other scenario where a cop stands a chance against a SEAL?



I don't care if it's Bruce Lee, a solid punch to the face always works.

I once had a party at my house and invited a bunch of friends. Some of them brought friends and couple of those friends brought friends. Once of the people that showed up was a friend-of-a-friend who happened to be Special Forces. He was on leave and didn't have anywhere else to go, so he tagged along with his friend.

Well, the night wore on and plenty of drinks were consumed. Then, this guy starts getting into it with one my roommates. (All my roommates were prior or current military, the only branch not represented was the Air Force. Poor birdmen...) So, they're bickering back and forth and the Special Forces guy starts in with that "You don't know what I do" garbage and "You don't know what I can do" junk. Look, those guys have a lot of demands placed upon them, but they're no better a human being than the next guy. Well, things get a bit out of hand and I tell them to take it outside and cool off.

They split up, inevitably finding each other again, and it's obvious that the cooling off period didn't work very well. Mr. Special Forces finally goes over the line and say's one thing too much. WHAM! He gets punched in the face... hard.

He finally woke up and was, more or less, fully coherent after about 45 minutes. That was a pretty good sock to the jaw he got... 

Take a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anEuw8F8cpE

There's no way that Indy is going to win that fight. He's got a whip, the other guy has a sword. He's doomed, right? He's doomed if he plays by the Rules, that's what! What does your character have to do? He has to use his street-smarts as a beat-cop in order to break the "Rules" and win the fight! He's not going to go toe-to-toe with this guy. He's going to fight dirty. He's going to pick up a trashcan and throw it at him, then he's going to follow that in, directly, and throw his body against the guy. He's going to put his arms around his head and bulldoze that guy into the ground. Then, he's going to grab that guy's head and slam it repeatedly into the pavement until he stops moving....

That's a real fight. Real fights aren't like they are in the movies. "Stand Up" fights only happen in competitive matches or outside of bars when drunk guys are trying to impress a girl with their prowess. In a real fight, you fight. There's none of this namby-pamby crap with orchestrated background music and cute little "come here" gestures, just before the big roundhouse kick. In a real fight, someone's head gets repeatedly slammed into the pavement until they stop moving. There's no such thing as "lasting" in a fight. Either you win, quickly, or you don't win. No legitimate fighting style in the World has as its core discipline the idea that you're supposed to make a fight last. None.

Your cop is going to fight a guy that wants to spar around and show off his Kung Fu. If I'm going to be on someone, it's the guy that's there to fight. (At least, that's the sort of theme I see that needs to develop in your scene. And, like most scenes in which a highly trained martial artist fights against a street-brawler, the martial artist is usually overcome by their own hubris. In your scene, I like the idea that the cop makes use of his down-and-dirty street fighting knowledge and goes straight for the win, rather than trying to see how many punches he can land while looking good for the ladies.)


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## alanmt (Dec 2, 2013)

Never underestimate the adrenaline fueled desperate counterattack of a man who believes he is about to die.


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## Shylock (Dec 2, 2013)

Morkonan said:


> Well, the night wore on and plenty of drinks were consumed. Then, this guy starts getting into it with one my roommates. (All my roommates were prior or current military, the only branch not represented was the Air Force. Poor birdmen...) So, they're bickering back and forth and the Special Forces guy starts in with that "You don't know what I do" garbage and "You don't know what I can do" junk. Look, those guys have a lot of demands placed upon them, but they're no better a human being than the next guy. Well, things get a bit out of hand and I tell them to take it outside and cool off.



 I'm not doubting you bro, but all of the SF I've known were the more quiet professional type. The little s**** that go bragging in bars and parties about how tough they are are _always _more bark than bite. I'm assuming he wasn't actually SF, and was some para fresh out of jump school. Either that or he just slipped through the system.

 Though I totally agree with your main point, real world fights are really unpredictable and very unhollywood esque. I've never been in a real bar fight just amateur boxing; the closest I've come is enlisted fight club in the barracks at basic and at my unit. There it wasn't always easy to see who'd come out on top. I got jumped and my a** kicked by one dude who I completely believed I could take. Likewise, on a huge adrenaline rush I beat a black belt heavyweight that I was terrified to take on. 

 It's not easy to say who's going to come out on top.

 Still, if a SEAL's going up against some random punk in a bar, I'd bet all of my savings on the SEAL.


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## The Tourist (Dec 2, 2013)

Sam said:


> There's just no way the cop could last for the time I need him to, and the five-minute time period



No problem, and I mean, no problem.  Your cop _can even win_.

There's an old biker proverb that goes, "Fight a short man tall, fight a tall man short."

In other words, if the guy is small or cannot fight, you stick or jab and then get out of the way.  He cannot hit back.

Now a tall man has reach, you need to negate it.  Get close so he cannot land a roundhouse, or punish him for the attempt.  And, duh, even a SEAL is made out of easily damaged "meat."

Depict your scene in a tavern or furniture store.  Lots of chairs and things to throw, and every time the SEAL gets ready to land a punch, have your cop beat on him with a barstool or end table.  Broken vases and ashtrays have incredibly sharp edges--like freshly chipped flint.

I'm not a fighter, in fact, I was jokester of the club.  But I do have a temper, and with a cut-glass ashtray, a barstool or a pool cue, I'm not afraid of anyone.

Edit:  For a point of reference, army guys are not the real tough guys.  When it comes to folks that just cannot be beaten, my money is on working cowboys.

They are lean, agile.  All day long they get pushed and pulled, stepped on  and knocked around by livestock.  The pain they feel during the day far outweighs what some drunk can do to them in a honky-tonk.

A couple of shots of tequila and a double dare and a 150 pound cowboy will clean out any rifle company, any bowling team, and yes, any cluster of bikers.


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## Lewdog (Dec 2, 2013)

Nothing could stop the cop from being ex-military himself.  :grin:  In fact many cops are.  Pressure points, eye gouges, throat punches, and the fact it only takes 20 lbs or less to blow out someone's knee are just a few ways to even out the odds.  Pepper spray or a tazer does the trick as well.  Yes the Seal would have training on how to fight after taking a pepper spray to the face, but it still hampers ability.  I've had that training and it sucks.


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## Shylock (Dec 2, 2013)

I've haven't been pepper sprayed, but the gas chamber at fort Benning has my snot ALL over it.  Sure there's training to overcome that, but I personally could _not _keep fighting after being gassed like that; at least not without running away and clearing up a little first. (And you do get over it pretty quick, we all could breathe thirty seconds outside the chamber.)


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## Guy Faukes (Dec 14, 2013)

Military Krav prepares you for a lot of scenarios in street fighting though, and depending on which team he's part of, he could be well prepared and on his game. 

I could see the cop getting a slight edge if he got the drop on the SEAL. No amount of hand to hand training can prepare you for a well set up ambush. You could set up your scenario to fit a failed ambush, where the cop gets the upper hand initially, but the SEAL's training gets him back into the fight.


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## Hawisher (Dec 23, 2013)

Sam said:


> I need a scenario where an ordinary beat cop would be able to stand toe-to-toe with an expertly trained Spec Ops soldier in unarmed combat. I only need to keep the soldier busy for five minutes so another scenario can reach fruition, but we're talking about a Navy SEAL trained in Krav Maga and Filipino Kali. There's just no way the cop could last for the time I need him to, and the five-minute time period has been written into the story for chapters. I could change it but I don't really want to.
> 
> PS: I know that if the cop pulled a weapon and shot the soldier, that would work, but that isn't part of the plan. Is there any other scenario where a cop stands a chance against a SEAL?


Fights don't last five minutes, at least, not in the sense of actually standing there hitting each other unpadded, and especially not against special forces. You've got a couple options, I should think. The first is to have the cop try to negotiate with the soldier to stall for time. The second is to put them in a narrow area and give the cop an improvised weapon that makes him very dangerous to approach carelessly. You could also have the cop use a taser or jump on him from behind, or something, but that's risky.


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## Tenzin (Dec 24, 2013)

How about this (though it depends on where they are fighting). Get the cop to use the terrain against his opponent. Construction site? Knock a heavy weight onto him. Factory? Again, knock heavy factory objects on him. Or, let the seal seem to win; the seal seems to be taking his time and enjoying his victory, doing the fight slowly.


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## Sam (Dec 24, 2013)

Guys, thank you for the suggestions, but I already have figured this out and written the scene.


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