# Making writing time, daily word count, revisions



## PenCat (Aug 22, 2015)

I was talking to another writer about my slow progress. I'm happy with what I lay down for my "rough" but at the rate I'm going, it will be a very long time before a book happens.

He suggests: daily word count. 500 words. Write in the morning, before anything can interrupt and steal time. Get it down. 

getting it perfect is for the revision process.



Thoughts on this? This has probably been asked and answered countless times..thanks for any words and thoughts.


----------



## shadowwalker (Aug 22, 2015)

Daily word count goals are good, especially if you're having trouble making any progress. Bear in mind, a lot of very good writers are also "slow" writers  

Finding time is a big problem for a lot of folks, mainly (I believe) because they look at writing as a huge block of time. It's amazing how much good writing can be done in 15 minutes.

Revisions - I disagree with your friend on that one. I don't think leaving revisions until later saves time or gets the book done any faster. You either do it along the way or do it after - it still has to get done. (Personally, I think it would take longer to revise after, simply because of all the things that have to be re-done if there's a change at the beginning.) The only time I would tell someone they need to move ahead without revising/editing is if they are stuck in a loop and not progressing at all with the book.


----------



## PenCat (Aug 22, 2015)

The revisions thing is a big issue for me...what if you get some great idea, such as a much better phrasing? do you wait until the Official Revision time has begun, or do jot that idea down PDQ and stick it into the folder?

I'm thinking ideas, unpreserved, can have a short life span and we can't count on them coming back into mind when we get around to revisions..


----------



## shadowwalker (Aug 23, 2015)

PenCat said:


> The revisions thing is a big issue for me...what if you get some great idea, such as a much better phrasing? do you wait until the Official Revision time has begun, or do jot that idea down PDQ and stick it into the folder?



I've always been of the mindset that if you see a way to do something better (not just different, but better), why leave it? Why wait until that particular change will cause rewriting pages and pages - perhaps the rest of the book? 

But then I've never understood the idea of waiting to the very end to revise, and then saying one hates revising because it's such a mammoth undertaking... :scratch:


----------



## The Green Shield (Aug 23, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> I've always been of the mindset that if you see a way to do something better (not just different, but better), why leave it? Why wait until that particular change will cause rewriting pages and pages - perhaps the rest of the book?
> 
> But then I've never understood the idea of waiting to the very end to revise, and then saying one hates revising because it's such a mammoth undertaking... :scratch:


Because it is! If writing were easy, everyone would be doing it. 

Granted, yeah, that's the part that makes or breaks writers, the revision. It's easy to dump everything onto a page, but to make it flow nicely the whole way through, make it concise and readable? Difficult.


----------



## Arthur G. Mustard (Aug 23, 2015)

I write something everyday and believe this is good for routine and to discipline yourself in to taking your writing seriously and treating it "like a proper job". But this could be ten words, fifty words, five hundred word etc and it also depends on mood and time made available; it may even be a scribbling in that little book we all carry about in our back pocket. 

As for getting things perfect over five hundred words, I don't agree. I prefer to write for as long as the creativity flows and I don't have to think about the story too much. I just think this method actually produces better writing.

I would then recap, read through, tweak and make it the best I could; after that it's over to my second pair of eyes, my wife. If I'm working on something longer, I prefer to get three or four chapters "under my belt" before unleashing the offerings on other eyes.

As for getting it down, I leave that for the disco floor!


----------



## J Anfinson (Aug 23, 2015)

If you want to make a career of writing then every day is essential. If you just do it for fun like me then write when you want. And there's no one right way to get it done or minimum word count per day. Thomas Harris, as a popular example, takes like five years to write each of his books. In thirty years he's written, what? Five? I think I read somewhere that he considers two hundred words a great day for himself.


----------



## Kyle R (Aug 23, 2015)

PenCat said:
			
		

> Get it down.
> 
> getting it perfect is for the revision process.
> 
> Thoughts on this?


I like to clean and polish as I go, then revise and rewrite when the story is finished. But I try to keep my cleaning and polishing down to a minimum.

For me, there's micro-level editing (editing the prose, tone, and contents of a scene as one goes) and macro-level editing (looking at the story as a whole and swapping out/adding in/rewriting the parts that need work). Often I don't know what needs work until seeing the story in a wide-angle lens.

Sometimes, my pieces don't all work together the way they should, for one reason or another, even if the writing in each of those pieces is strong.

So one of the risks (for me) of too much micro-level editing is my tendency to remove/swap out scenes or whole chapters during macro-level edits.

All the time spent making chapter four perfect could essentially be time wasted if I end up deciding, during the macro-edit stage, that chapter four should be removed completely.

So I try to tell myself, "Make it good enough that you feel comfortable moving forward, but don't stress about making it perfect yet. The macro-level edit stage still awaits." :encouragement:


----------



## Bishop (Aug 23, 2015)

I write 2000 words a day, 5 days a week. It's the only way I make progress, by having that concrete goal, and  forcing myself to adhere to it. I highly recommend it, especially if you're clocking under 500 words a day--it will be some time before your novel's done with that pace.


----------



## bazz cargo (Aug 23, 2015)

I spend a hell of a lot of time thinking. Very little writing.


----------



## shadowwalker (Aug 23, 2015)

The Green Shield said:


> Granted, yeah, that's the part that makes or breaks writers, the revision. It's easy to dump everything onto a page, but to make it flow nicely the whole way through, make it concise and readable? Difficult.



Well, that's kinda beside the point   What I don't get is complaining about revisions when one waits until the whole thing is written before doing it. To me (and probably others who edit/revise as we go), it's like building a house and then deciding to change the bathroom location - all manner of things then have to change. I'd rather decide the bathroom goes HERE and be done with it.


----------



## Caragula (Aug 23, 2015)

I woke up one day, after about 20 years, and realised that I could no longer not write a book.  I'd procrastinated most of my adult life away thinking I was a writer that didn't have the time.

I thus have no advice as to how to acquire this feeling, but once you feel this, worrying about word count goes away, because the thought of not finishing the book is too sickening to bear.

Life will move itself around in order to accommodate this passion, and any partner or friends you have that know you love writing will probably be very glad you're doing it and excited for you, which will be a wonderful feeling and also motivational.


----------



## Kyle R (Aug 23, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> What I don't get is complaining about revisions when one waits until the whole thing is written before doing it. To me (and probably others who edit/revise as we go), it's like building a house and then deciding to change the bathroom location - all manner of things then have to change. I'd rather decide the bathroom goes HERE and be done with it.



Not all stories are built from the ground up, even though the writer may try.

Some need to be pieced together, taken apart, twisted and chopped, injected and amputated and Frankenstein-ed back together again, until the monster finally lurches to life. :encouragement:


----------



## shadowwalker (Aug 23, 2015)

Kyle R said:


> Not all stories are built from the ground up, even though the writer may try.
> 
> Some need to be pieced together, taken apart, twisted and chopped, injected and amputated and Frankenstein-ed back together again, until the monster finally lurches to life. :encouragement:



But then why whine about revisions, if that's the way one decides to construct the story? (And yes, one decides to do it that way. If there weren't a choice, so many writers wouldn't be doing it differently.  ) If one doesn't want the hassle of massive revisions, then one needs to write the story in a manner that reduces and/or eliminates that. It's like that old joke: "Doc, it hurts when I do this!" "Then don't do that!".


----------



## ppsage (Aug 24, 2015)

When I'm writing, solving the problems is a joy. When I'm not writing, thinking about the problems is a looming agony. You might think a solution is obvious, but for some reason I happily swing both ways.


----------



## Sam (Aug 24, 2015)

PenCat said:


> I was talking to another writer about my slow progress. I'm happy with what I lay down for my "rough" but at the rate I'm going, it will be a very long time before a book happens.
> 
> He suggests: daily word count. 500 words. Write in the morning, before anything can interrupt and steal time. Get it down.



It depends on the person. 

For instance, I thrive on goals and deadlines, but other people get stressed out over them and thus the process becomes horrible for them. As with everything in writing, it's the old cliche of what works best for the individual. 



> getting it perfect is for the revision process.



'Perfect' is a misnomer. You will never get a novel perfect (that includes editing, the story, the characters, and all the intricate parts that make up the final piece). What you strive to do is make it as close to perfect as you can get. 

Personally, I edit as I go. If I have a 45-minute session this morning, I'll use the last five minutes of the session to re-read what I've just written and edit what I feel needs to be edited. That works for me. It may not work for you. 

What you have is a good starting point, but, if it were me, I'd try to up it to 1,000 a day at some point. If you find it easy to do that through increments of 100, great, but 1,000 gives you a nice rounded number and is another goal to aspire to.


----------



## TMarie (Aug 24, 2015)

The desire to write has been a part of me since I was a girl, and it has only been within the last year that I have made an effort to get the words out of my head and onto paper and/or screen.  Too many times I have set time aside to write, and just sat .... and too many times I have set time aside to write, and did Not sit.  I discovered that a consistent same-time-each-day session works best for me, and if I write more throughout the day, then Bonus!  The last few months however, I have written nothing.  A friend nudged me to return to WF, so here I am.  This thread reminded me of the same-time-each-day writing time, and the idea of a word count goal is interesting.  As a beginner writer, 500 words a day sounds impossible, but I am up for the challenge.

My motivation is fuelled by doing.


----------



## Kyle R (Aug 24, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> But then why whine about revisions, if that's the way one decides to construct the story? (And yes, one decides to do it that way. If there weren't a choice, so many writers wouldn't be doing it differently.  ) If one doesn't want the hassle of massive revisions, then one needs to write the story in a manner that reduces and/or eliminates that. It's like that old joke: "Doc, it hurts when I do this!" "Then don't do that!".



Well, I mean sometimes a writer _tries_ to write in a such a way as to avoid an extensive revision (editing and polishing as they go), but sometimes the story still needs it once it's done.

For me, the need for revision often only becomes apparent after the story's been written in full and I'm getting feedback from beta readers. Sometimes what I think is, "Perfect!" actually needs a lot of work—I just need fresh eyes to point it out to me.

The beginning might need to change. Maybe in the middle I veer the story in a direction that doesn't seem to work for those who read it. Maybe the theme would actually work ten times better if the book's message was "lost love can sometimes be reclaimed again" instead of "lost love never returns." Maybe the whole third act would work better if it went in _this_ direction, instead of _that_.

So, for me at least, trying to make it right as I go can still leave me with revisions that need to be done. The individual parts could be written very well, but the big picture may have flaws which require the components to be scrapped/rearranged/added onto/taken away from. 

The twin-engine plane I built may actually work better as a helicopter.

Sometimes it may seem perfect to _me_, but in the end still be far from perfect.

I think that's where some of the complaints come from—when a writer strives to knock it out of the park in one go, but finds themselves with a story that still needs to be chopped apart and put back together again. For many, this can be daunting and discouraging, especially when a revision is exactly what they were trying to avoid.

A lot depends on the writer, of course! Some writers can, in fact, knock it out of the park in one go! Like wizards, they are. "Do it right the first time!" they say. And they do!

Others seem to work better as remodelers, rather than builders. As James Michener famously said: "I'm not a very good writer, but I'm an excellent rewriter." :encouragement:


----------



## Terry D (Aug 24, 2015)

PenCat said:


> I was talking to another writer about my slow progress. I'm happy with what I lay down for my "rough" but at the rate I'm going, it will be a very long time before a book happens.
> 
> He suggests: daily word count. 500 words. Write in the morning, before anything can interrupt and steal time. Get it down.
> 
> ...



I would fail at a word count goal. My goal is to set down for an hour or so Monday through Thursday, and then 3 or 4 hours on Saturday and Sunday. Some days I get more words than others, but I'm always moving forward and that's what is important to me. As for revision? If I see something that I want to revise in yesterday's work, I do it before I start today. Otherwise I wait until the book is done and do it then. I don't dread revision, and it is no harder to do it after the work is complete than it is as it is being written. 

Finding a way to keep the work progressing is the key, in my opinion. The method behind that motivation is up to the individual. All else is white-noise.


----------



## J Anfinson (Aug 24, 2015)

I did 700 words yesterday and I'm happy. Usually I'm lucky to end up with a couple hundred.


----------



## shadowwalker (Aug 24, 2015)

Kyle R said:


> For me, the need for revision often only becomes apparent after the story's been written in full and I'm getting feedback from beta readers. Sometimes what I think is, "Perfect!" actually needs a lot of work—I just need fresh eyes to point it out to me.



See, here is where another change could work. Why wait until the story has been completed before using betas? I have never, ever completed a story and _then _had my betas look at it. They get it chapter by chapter as it's being written. They see the problems just as they would if I waited - but I don't have the massive changes to make in the rest of the book, because they haven't been written yet. If I write something in the new chapter that doesn't jive with the earlier work, they see it before I've written more based on that error.

Where there's a will, there's a way.


----------



## PenCat (Aug 24, 2015)

Many/most/all of these ideas are resonating for me. Thank you for the discussion.

I did have the experience just now of realizing that a big piece of my first idea for an opening chapter — which I thought stunk because it caused too many problems and felt klunky — might be great later on in my story.

I'm a bit worried that I'll have some great idea while walking down the street, and not be present enough to write it down, or will have left the house without pen and paper, and as they say about carrying an umbrella: it never rains when you do!

I am writing (creating) by hand, with pen and you would be amazed at the square footage that can be produced this way, even without "benefit" of typing on a keyboard at 80wpm. I fear being overwhelmed by it all, but I'm trying to develop methods as I go..using different-color inks to call out edits, and writing on one side of a page are a couple of things I'm trying to help make the task of managing the written stuff easier.

All of the comments here have turned lights on for me. Thank you!


----------



## Kyle R (Aug 24, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> See, here is where another change could work. Why wait until the story has been completed before using betas? I have never, ever completed a story and _then _had my betas look at it. They get it chapter by chapter as it's being written. They see the problems just as they would if I waited - but I don't have the massive changes to make in the rest of the book, because they haven't been written yet. If I write something in the new chapter that doesn't jive with the earlier work, they see it before I've written more based on that error.
> 
> Where there's a will, there's a way.



That's one way to do it!

I think, though, that also further proves how differently everyone works. I don't always agree with Stephen King's advice, but for me his maxim, "Write with the door closed, rewrite with the door open," works best.

If I write to the end on my own, with the intention of fixing things later, I have the freedom to make mistakes, to explore absurdities, to say, "Hey, this part is pretty bad but I feel like writing bad here to see where it takes me." Sometimes great things come out of it.

A novelette I wrote in this way ended up with _Cheetos_ being a key factor in the climax of the story—something I tossed in along the way for fun in order to shatter my temporary writer's block, with the intention of cleaning it out once the story was finished. It ended up staying and, in my opinion, working quite well. Without it, the entire climax of the story would not exist as it does.

Had I opened the door up to criticism along the way, that _Cheetos_ subplot would probably never have survived a beta's critical eye. "What is this? It feels like something thrown in for no reason. Take it out. It doesn't belong."

Ah, maybe it doesn't work _now_, but that's because I haven't seen the whole picture and figured out how to rearrange things and weave it all together!

Editing away the problems in an incremental fashion can swipe away possibilities and avenues that might have been worth exploring.

Though, I can see the possible benefits, too! Receiving feedback along the way _can_ work wonders, if the writer works well that way. Every brick perfectly set. Every stone polished. A trail of excellence, built from the ground up. When it's done, a wall of perfection! Oh, it makes me salivate just thinking about it. 

But it depends on the writer, again. For me, the wall just doesn't rise that way. For me, a misplaced brick can lead to an awesome fountain, and I don't want that lopsided brick corrected until I've seen where it can lead.

Different strokes for different folks. :encouragement:


----------



## John Oberon (Aug 24, 2015)

I'm with shadowwalker 100%.


----------



## shadowwalker (Aug 24, 2015)

Kyle R said:


> Different strokes for different folks. :encouragement:



Always! Again, I was only pointing out ways for people who hate revising can get away from it, just by thinking a bit differently about how they do things.


----------



## PenCat (Aug 24, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> Always! Again, I was only pointing out ways for people who hate revising can get away from it, just by thinking a bit differently about how they do things.




That has always paid off for me..changing up the paradigm, thinking from different angles, being receptive to ideas even if they seem "wrong."

creative though process can benefit greatly with the injection of new dna


----------



## voltigeur (Aug 31, 2015)

What really worked for me was a change in vernacular. My girlfriend took a creative writing class at one of the local universities. The professor made the comment that writing actually happens during the revision process and what most people refer to as writing is actually the creative process. 

The logic is that creating is a right brained function and revising is a left brain function. For most people the 2 halves of our brain usually don't play well together. So break your writing up so that each side of the brain has its own task. 

I found that idea really works well for me.I sit and created for 10 minutes. After the first session I walked around do a few short chores, sat back down and create again for 10 min. I did this 3 times the first day, 2 the second day and once the 3rd day. 

 When I went on vacation I had 6 new scenes to revise. (Left brain work.)  

Over vacation I fixed dialog that wasn't well motivated, POV issues, expanded sentences that needed to be paragraphs, got rid of passive verbs and phrasing etc. This week I will run those scenes through an online editor to fix stupid stuff like repeated sentence starts etc. Then the scenes will be ready for Beta Read. 

So the theory is that if I do at least 10 min of creation each day you will do 5 to 6 scenes a week. 

As much as I try to clean each scene I think I'm still going to have to review the entire work. 

I noticed 2 days ago that over the last year my writer's voice is changing. It would be nice if my WIP read like the same person wrote all of it. :stupid:

Oh well that is learning by doing. 

Hope this helps.


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Aug 31, 2015)

When I started out on my current work, I was cranking out 5000 words every time I sat down. That was usually two or three times a week. These days, if I can get an uninterrupted hour or two, I can still get a thousand or so. I haven't set any particular goal for myself. That is due, in large part, to the general chaos that goes on in our house. 4 kids, two teenagers and two under 10, don't normally lend themselves to peace and quiet.


----------



## dale (Aug 31, 2015)

i hit over 800 words last night. i haven't did anything close to that in a long time. i think it was because i ran out of booze and
drank really strong coffee instead. hmmm. i may just try that again tonight.


----------

