# Brooklyn 1971



## felixm (Jan 23, 2017)

Banged this out yesterday morning as I began my stint as a dishwasher.  I'm not sure where it's going, and I haven't a clue about poetry, but please let me know what you think.  Thanks!

Brooklyn 1971

The plates unwashed
and rap loud and strong
from strung-up speakers
talking love and hate 
in the ghetto
take me back
to the streets


The neighborhood
The hood where Panthers walked
and sold their rag
and all the news that fit
...........


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## Darkkin (Jan 23, 2017)

felixm said:


> Brooklyn 1971
> 
> The plates unwashed  Are we in a restaurant?  Without the author's note, would the reader be able to tell this?  No, which leaves the reader with more questions e.g.  Paper plates on the street?  What?  You haven't grounded your context.  You assume.  The reader isn't always going to take your word on things.  You need to support your statements.   Maybe consider starting the piece looking through the eyes of the dishwasher.  Put the reader's hands in that sink.  Bring the setting to life, otherwise why does the reader need to care about the plates?  What purpose do they serve?  Make sure your nouns are serving a purpose, not just functioning as an inert adornment.  How do the plates function within the piece as a whole?  Having read through this, they serve no function, so why have them?  Utilize your words.  Don't waste your lines or the reader's time.  Connect A to B.
> and rap loud and strong  Is there any other kind of rap?  The loud and strong are redundant, implied by the noun itself.  This is an example of letting the word do the work.  You get specific on inert details and then leave gaping holes where important context is concerned.  You need to look for more balance.  Poetry is a different animal than prose.  With prose plot holes aren't quite as noticeable, with poetry, issues with context and flow can be glaring.
> ...



You say this is Brooklyn 1971...Other than your word for it there is  nothing about the piece that conveys this.  How is this different from  Detroit, Chicago or any other urban setting?  This is more of an outline  than a poem right now.  As a reader I'm going...Meh.  Not terrible, but  certainly not memorable.  There is nothing to keep the reader's  interest, not distinctive turn of phrase.  You are talking at the  reader, not engaging them in any way.

Let me ask this, what about  this piece is going to stick with the reader.  What about this piece  sets it apart, makes it unique?  There is nothing of a writer's identity  here.  That element is critical to poetry.  The voice of the writer.

You  need to ask some basic questions.  The first being, what is the purpose  of this piece?  What are you hoping to convey to the reader?   A lot of  people assume that just because there are fewer words involved that  poetry is easier than prose.  It isn't the case.  Because there are  decidedly fewer words in poetry _every word needs to carry its weight.

_Poetry is about capturing the essence of imagery, emotion, memories.  Everything about it is brighter, more elusive.  It is the best of an idea.  Its soul, if you will.  And unlike prose, you need to be conscious of how your words work within the context of a line, what purpose a line serves, how it supports the piece as a whole...Consider it a little like writing a research paper.  A supports B, B establishes C, C segues into D and emphasizes A through C.  You can see where I'm headed with this.  Your stanzas need to work as a team, each line, adding something to the whole.

As a first go, it is better than others I've read.  As a reader, there is nothing terrible about it.  The writer in me can appreciate the idea, point of fact, would like to see the idea developed, this time with your senses brought in to play.  Put the reader in the moment, make them want to be there.  Also, thank you for not capitalizing every line.  That is one habit not many poets cultivate, so it is greatly appreciated.

Brooklyn in 1971.  Highly distinctive place and time.  Make the poem live up to the title.  I'll keep an eye out for an edit.

Also, consider taking some time to look up the works of Charles Bukowski.  He is an amazing poet, with a causal style and an eye for detail.  He excels at drawing the reader into his moment, really making you feel as if you are standing beside him as he talks.  When you can almost hear the writer's voice in your head it is a clear sign of good writing and Bukowski illustrates that.

- D. the T.


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## Firemajic (Jan 24, 2017)

felixm said:


> Banged this out yesterday morning as I began my stint as a dishwasher.  I'm not sure where it's going, and I haven't a clue about poetry, but please let me know what you think.  Thanks!
> 
> Brooklyn 1971
> 
> ...




Ghetto rap
from strung up speakers
take me back to the streets
to the Hood where Panthers walked.....

Some good lines, but JMO... this needs an edge, some grit and grime... nice concept, now add some content...


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## sas (Jan 24, 2017)

felixm, I have only been in this group for a year, so what I'm about to say may be wrong: When Darkkin gives such an in depth workshop it is because she sees value and potential in your work. Yes, this poem is your skelton to hang meat on to bring it alive. It's a flat black and white. Write it in color in 3-D. Don't give up on it. I thought it a creative use of rap, hood, and panthers (I assume the Black Panthers). I remember 1971 well. I was in Detroit. I don't remember rap then. But, could be wrong. Did rap exist in 1971. Hmmm. 
.


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## Ptolemy (Jan 24, 2017)

sas said:


> felixm, I have only been in this group for a year, so what I'm about to say may be wrong: When Darkkin gives such an in depth workshop it is because she sees value and potential in your work. Yes, this poem is your skelton to hang meat on to bring it alive. It's a flat black and white. Write it in color in 3-D. Don't give up on it. I thought it a creative use of rap, hood, and panthers (I assume the Black Panthers). I remember 1971 well. I was in Detroit. I don't remember rap then. But, could be wrong. Did rap exist in 1971. Hmmm.
> .



Rap (or spoken word) was first used on an album by Isaac Hayes in his album "Black Moses" which was released in (coincidentally) 1971. This isn't the rap we hear today though; "Ike's Rap I-III" (The "raps" featured in the album) is just Hayes talking in an suave and smooth voice over a beat. Rap back then was considered a way of speach on a music track akin to just talking rather than singing to convey a message.

In all honesty, "rap" has been around since the 1920s with blues music. (Which is what I believe Felixm was going for when he stated "rap" or at least I hope he was) Also, music historians have argued that blues music could be classified as "rap" 

So yes, "rap music" was around back in the old days of 1971, it just wasn't as prominent or as developed as it is today.


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## Kevin (Jan 24, 2017)

Yeah, but back then they called it rep, like hip and hep, or maybe it was pap or pip, shit...

Brooklin strikes me as about scene. Okay...but it is a large blank to mentally fill in if you're not familiar.

D, rag- newspaper


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## sas (Jan 24, 2017)

Somehow I don't think felixm meant that older version of rap meaning. Felixm? My point is that poets often don't do their homework, and should. I'm in my 70s and have caught myself mixing up decades...and, I was THERE! Smiles.


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## Darkkin (Jan 24, 2017)

To the eye as the words appear on a screen or piece of paper, writing looks one dimensional.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  We live in a four dimensional world (time being the fourth), even sound has mass in the shape of the air it displaces and the waves it creates.  Everything is connected, what happens with one thing will effect another.  It is why context matters.

The devil is in the details.  And it doesn't take much.  Add the texture, the colour, the sounds...Heck, think hard.  Do you remember the name of the song on those speakers?  Part of the lyrics.  It is the little things like this that can elevate a piece from middle of the road to distinctive.

I wasn't alive in 1971, wasn't until nearly a decade and a half later, but I have been to New York.  What I remember is sensory overload, something happening everywhere you turn.  An almost manic pace to life.  And the people, _so _many people.  It is something not even visitors easily forget.  (Not being a people person, I was very glad to get home...:wink

Readers draw context from the piece itself, but also from what _they_ know.  Subconsciously we look for parallels.  It is a part of the reading process.  Yes, we will fill in some blanks, but there is a difference between the reader roughing in an outline and falling head long into another's memories.  Concept and reality.  

Make it a reality.  You have the frame work because if you think about it how many of us haven't washed dishes at some point, after dinner or as a job somewhere along the line.  Don't just tell us what you did.  _Show us_.


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## Firemajic (Jan 24, 2017)

Kevin said:


> Yeah, but back then they called it rep, like hip and hep, or maybe it was pap or pip, shit...
> 
> Brooklin strikes me as about scene. Okay...but it is a large blank to mentally fill in if you're not familiar.
> 
> ...


***


OOOoo... Right, I missed that, I thought of the Panther's colors.... I see ... ;}
thank you...


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## felixm (Jan 24, 2017)

Dear Darrkin; 

Thank you very much for elucidating me on the basic points of poetry: as I said in my intro, I know nothing.  I agree completely that the first line is useless.

Most of your criticism follows the "show me not tell me" line, and I completely understand that, although I thought that poetry attempted to elicit a more thoughtful, perhaps free-thought, association from the reader, and so I was purposefully vague.  I guess if I can't write "strung-up speakers" and expect people to get an image or an understanding, I should quit now.  Is that what you are saying?  I think it is, but it makes me feel a bit more pessimistic about whoever might be a reader.

What I question is your remarks about rap, about which you profess avoidance. There is more to it than shouting. Bob Dylan is a rap artist.  And no, Brooklyn is no different  than Chicago or Detroit.  Does that matter?

But really, I have no idea what this little piece is all about or where it might go.  Thank you very much for your your input; I will be re-reading it often.


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## felixm (Jan 24, 2017)

Thank you, firemajic


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## Darkkin (Jan 24, 2017)

Bob Dylan as an artist is more closely associated to the roots of what rap began as, not the screaming, profanity laced ear shattering morass we have today.  Like many styles of creative expression, it has been diverted from its original form and made into something almost unrecognizable.  A Google search pulled up the _Rollingstone_ article and those guys do their homework.  It was an insightful read.

That being said, why not utilize Dylan?  Why the generalized rap, when with one subtle detail you could bring a huge piece of identity to your piece, both in tone and location.  Dylan may have been born in Minnesota, but he made his name in New York.  Take a cue from his lyrics, personalize and clarify.

And consider too, the Dylan is a creative legend in his own right, as a singer, songwriter, and poet.  He did an interview for a book a few years ago called _Imagine_: _How Creativity Works_.  Getting inside the head of a creative genius, even if you aren't overly fond of their work, is an eye opening perspective.  From a reader's standpoint it really made me appreciate the process behind Dylan's work.  While I don't care for his music, I respect him as an artist.

- D. the T.


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## Ptolemy (Jan 24, 2017)

Darkkin said:


> Bob Dylan as an artist is more closely associated to the roots of what rap began as, not the screaming, profanity laced ear shattering morass we have today.  Like many styles of creative expression, it has been diverted from its original form and made into something almost unrecognizable.  A Google search pulled up the _Rollingstone_ article and those guys do their homework.  It was an insightful read.
> 
> That being said, why not utilize Dylan?  Why the generalized rap, when with one subtle detail you could bring a huge piece of identity to your piece, both in tone and location.  Dylan may have been born in Minnesota, but he made his name in New York.  Take a cue from his lyrics, personalize and clarify.
> 
> ...



Sorry Darkkin, I need to disagree with you on that topic that all rap music is "morass"

I feel you haven't listen all sorts of rap music, which may or may not be true. Hell you could be one of the biggest Migos fans on the earth. 

Chief Keef, 21 Savage, French Montana, Souja Boy, these are the rappers you are describing, "the screaming profanities, dehumanizing women, posterizing their immense wealth, but this is the bottom of the barrel in of Rap music. They may be popular, but that doesn't make them good, or even talented. And many people feel this way about them, and how they are ruining not only rap but hip hop in general. 

However, there are rappers who akin their music to poetry, J.Cole, Logic, Khairy, Kendric Lamar who tell stories with their music, they feel passion and use words to set scenes, give you chills and let you feel their genuine emotion. I suggest you listen to J.Cole's latest album 4 Your Eyez Only and listen to the story it portrays. While of course comparing rapping to poetry may be a stretch, they still use poetry elements to tell a tale, just in a different way/tone than you may prefer.

To be honesty it's clearly a case of one bad apple has ruined your view on rap music here. Yes, there are "artists" who have distorted the view on rap music, but there are still people and groups who use rap to it's roots and tell a story.


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## Darkkin (Jan 24, 2017)

It isn't so much the medium, as it is an incompatibility with my basic sensory input.  Mainstream rap makes me cringe, as does free form jazz because I deal with frequency sensitivities.  I don't doubt that there are artists out there who do justice to the roots of their craft.  Just as I like using old forms of poetry...But the reality of popularized rap still exists, however corrupted.

As I said before, rap has viable roots in musical history.  Good roots, but the medium is inherently chaotic, and when dealing with tonal sensitivities, as idiotic as it may sound, unpredictable patterns induce not only severe anxiety, but pain.  Much like light sensitivities are agony to migraine sufferers, some sounds have the same effect.

- D. the T.


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## sas (Jan 25, 2017)

I enjoyed this informative thread. I'm off to google the rap artists mentioned. Seems only fair that I do, as my guy, Elvis, is still being foisted upon others. My dad hated him. 

Jazz. . .five guys playing a different tune, at the same time. 
.


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## Bard_Daniel (Jan 26, 2017)

I think you've got the scaffolding set up for a good piece. The title also successfully draws the reader in. Now; however, you just need to start the job of nitpicking and carefully building your piece up. The tools are there, have at it!

As always, just my opinion. Thanks for sharing!


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