# Now how would you feel?



## The Tourist (Oct 13, 2013)

As you know we've been discussing quality in our writing over the past few weeks.  I make no secret of my feelings despite the fact I believe that the issue on just what is "good" will never be solved.  What is 'art,' anyway?  But I'd like to draw a parallel for your consideration.

Several months ago I got an e-mail from a member of another hobbyist forum asking me to join a new board set up by invitation only.  Intrigued, I signed up.  Not only did I find several dozen guys who cared as I do, but it was nice not to trip over flamers, guys who argue for the sake of arguing, and those with bizarre political agendas.

So I ask you, what if that same guy created a members only creative writing forum?

You get up one morning, flip on this Writing Forums page and find out that your favorite guys haven't posted in a few days.  There are, however, six new threads on zombies, an entirely new section that discusses fairies only, and a political movement in Japan to get Suzanne Collins dubbed a national treasure.

You post, and get flamed for being elitist.

One morning you sign on and find that there are so many threads with misspellings and plagiarism that the entire reason for learning about the written word is moot.  A sample of your work draws the scorn of being "pedantic" because one 14 year old member heard his mom use that word.

Now, before you dismiss the premise, let me report that last year a creative writing forum by invitation only was created.  A noble gesture, but the owner was underfunded and the program was scrapped not for the issues but for the business of business.  It won't be long before some new guy with deep pockets tries the same venture.

I want to learn how to write better, just as I want to sharpen better, build better engines and even take positive steps in my marriage.  I'm baffled why that belief system is such a hard sell.  But then, I walk the racks at B&N and a possible answer becomes all too clear.  So I ask you, as a member of a group who treasures the written word, what's your take on this?


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## Gavrushka (Oct 13, 2013)

Likewise, I have come here to improve my writing, and I find value in a subset of the threads on here. Those that do not interest me (or downright irritate me) I avoid.

I contribute where I can, but in the main I am looking for answers from those more experienced than me. - I sift through responses and disregard anything that has little or no merit for me. I do appreciate there are almost as many reasons for joining this site as there are members.

I've only been here six weeks, and yet I feel the help I have received in that time has improved my writing immensely. - For that reason alone, I am so damned tolerant of this place that it'll make the more cynical power-vomit! LOL


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## Myers (Oct 13, 2013)

Who or what exactly is stopping you from learning how to write better?

And as far as I know, while they're obviously looking for good stories, because that's what sells, no agents or publishers are rejecting work because the writing is good. All this chest beating and howling about quality is a colossal waste of time.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Oct 13, 2013)

I'd get over myself and go write something.


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## Myers (Oct 13, 2013)

Boy, it's at times like this I really miss that "like" button.


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## Jeko (Oct 13, 2013)

> I want to learn how to write better, just as I want to sharpen better, build better engines and even take positive steps in my marriage. I'm baffled why that belief system is such a hard sell.



Why 'sell' a belief system? No-one's buying. 

If you want to get better at writing, write, share and try to take something good about every bit of feedback you get. It takes a mountain of patience to get to the point where people will pay you for your work, and also a mountain of humility. Anything that isn't helpful to your writing, ignore it, unless you want to help whatever it is (a naive beginner's work, for example).

Yes, I treasure the written word. I also treasure beginners - they are the next generation of authors, and I am part of that generation.


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## bookmasta (Oct 13, 2013)

lasm said:


> I'd get over myself and go write something.



This. If there is a thread you don't like then don't read it.


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## shadowwalker (Oct 13, 2013)

There is, IMO, a big difference between wanting to learn to write better, and putting down other authors and what they write and how they write it. The first is productive; the second is just egotism. Decide which you really want and find a forum that supports it.


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## Gargh (Oct 13, 2013)

If you genuinely only want the opinions of a select few people, then go ahead and create a group and invite them. I believe you'll miss out though. We all have preconceptions and misconceptions about good/bad writing but they're usually only challenged by free, open and inclusive discussion. I see members of this forum frequently evolving from, learning from and sometimes far out-running their former selves and the peers who have supported them. And that is precisely because there is no one-size-fits-all value judgement driving the discussions.


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## Sintalion (Oct 13, 2013)

My general philosophy is if I want to learn something, I head over to the forums and critique work, no matter how good or bad. Each person is at a different stage in their writing career and I respect that. Often I find that when I'm reviewing, my own writing benefits from it. I might be a good deal worse or a hundred times better, the writing could be in a genre I absolutely loathe, but the things that strengthen and weaken writing are generally universal. If I just got done calling someone out on gerund abuse, I might keep it in mind the next time I review my writing, and be extra generous with the gasoline. 

And then I put up my work for review (not currently on here; I'm at the beta reading stage so I only accept requests if someone asks to read my writing). Hearing all the perspectives helps tremendously, and gives me a better window into the forest that all the trees have blocked. 

If I want to learn people's _opinions _on the various aspects of writing, I read discussions. I _love _to listen. These help me put things in perspective, so I can better become a well-rounded writer and make my own judgments. But mostly I find it's all hot air and the real work's done when you're actively involved in the writing process, whether reading, reviewing, or pounding out a chapter. 

Writing is an individual process. This is how I view and use it, but it's certainly not how everyone does.


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## Jamie (Oct 13, 2013)

I actually LIKE seeing the works of those who have only just begun, and the help they can receive to make them better at this craft. It reminds me how far I myself have come since devoting a little more time to my writing. Also, if and when I give some advice to people, I like the thought that they'll get something, anything, from it, then take it away and put it into practice. That gives me a buzz, to be honest.

I'd hate for them to feel alienated, belittled and frowned upon, just because others think they're so much better at this than they are. We all started somewhere. We all need a hand now and then. We all need inspiration. And I get all of that from a variety of sources, not just people who are excellent at writing, but those who might be looked upon as novices too.


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## Myers (Oct 13, 2013)

shadowwalker said:


> the second is just egotism.



This. 

If anyone thinks this is really about "writing better" or getting opinions, you might want to go back and read the OP more carefully.


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## The Tourist (Oct 13, 2013)

I'm glad so many of you feel this way.  In truth, this wasn't a soapbox, but a chance for folks in the forum to state their positions.

I like finding solutions to problems, and the guys on my "ignore" list here earned that distinction simply by complaining once to many times about not wanting to go that extra mile.

If anything, I'm gladdened by two things.  One, your positive responses.  Two, the Packers won--ugly to be sure, but a "W" is a "W."


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## Myers (Oct 13, 2013)

Not that you can see this (supposedly ) but no one who has responded negatively to any of your umpteen writing quality/drek rants has said, implied or indicated in any way that they don’t want to "go that extra mile." Pure fantasy. And it says a lot about the motivation behind this thread.


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## FleshEater (Oct 13, 2013)

Myers said:


> Not that you can see this (supposedly ) but no one who has responded negatively to any of your umpteen writing quality/drek rants has said, implied or indicated in any way that they don’t want to "go that extra mile." Pure fantasy. And it says a lot about the motivation behind this thread.



I really miss the "Like" button, too.

Your last sentence captured my thoughts as soon as I read the OP's post. 

Every thread I've seen The Tourist comment on, there seems to be arguing for the sake of arguing, and a strange paranoia of an agenda in everything anyone says. The darkest moment thread comes to mind.


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## Morkonan (Oct 14, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> ...I want to learn how to write better, just as I want to sharpen better, build better engines and even take positive steps in my marriage.  I'm baffled why that belief system is such a hard sell.  But then, I walk the racks at B&N and a possible answer becomes all too clear.  So I ask you, as a member of a group who treasures the written word, what's your take on this?


\

Such exclusive places already exist. Some have even become notable, like that one for journalists and editors and whatnot that became infamous, a few years ago, after a huge flamewar spilled out over something about something-or-other... I'm sure that such places exist for fiction writers. (I already know there's at least one group for science-fiction writers, certain scientists and futurists. It's an advisory board sort of thing.) And, as far other sorts of "invite only" sites, forums, mail groups and such, those have been around since before the Internet. Back in the old dialup BBS days, they were all over the place.

But, what would be the point? I could see some benefit to be had by professionals who were eager to discuss stories, but didn't want to sacrifice their First Publishing rights and, worse, run the risk of having their story upstaged. But, you'd have to have a very dedicated, very ethical bunch of people hanging around in order to do that.

From just a general perspective, what would just a invite-only site do for a writer? I can't see that it would do much. We're here to discuss writing with a diverse group of like-minded people. Let's say someone made an invite-only board and then sent out invites to only those people they wanted to interact with. Then, those people invited just a few and so-on, down the line. You'd end up with either a board that was invite-only, but had the same demographic of available applicants as any general board, or a board that was so esoteric that nobody could benefit from it, since it lacked the diversity necessary for truly stimulating discussion.


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## bookmasta (Oct 14, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> I really miss the "Like" button, too.
> 
> Your last sentence captured my thoughts as soon as I read the OP's post.
> 
> Every thread I've seen The Tourist comment on, there seems to be arguing for the sake of arguing, and a strange paranoia of an agenda in everything anyone says. The darkest moment thread comes to mind.



You could add the "pat yourself on the back and brag a bit" thread to the pile as well.


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## Myers (Oct 14, 2013)

Morkonan said:


> From just a general perspective, what would just a invite-only site do for a writer? I can't see that it would do much. We're here to discuss writing with a diverse group of like-minded people.



Invitations only writers groups aren't about discussing writing. They primarily focus on critique. And it's about quality, not quantity. Some of them require that you submit a sample before you can join. They're for more serious writers who are interested in sharing their work for more detailed and consistent feedback, who aren't interested in or don't need general advice. And you don't have to worry about moderation or people with delicate egos. It's really not that much different than sharing your work with beta readers, only the work is in progress. I belonged to one for a while. The problem is, people drop out for various reasons, and without a constant influx of new members, like you have here, it's hard to keep them going. But it's a perfectly sound concept, and a few of them have been going for years. 

Of course, scenarios like the one described in the OP, where things go off the rails, don't happen; that's the whole purpose of invitation only forums.


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## David Gordon Burke (Oct 14, 2013)

Cadence said:


> Why 'sell' a belief system? No-one's buying.



I can easily see where The Tourist is coming from.  I have nothing but respect for anyone brave enough to attempt to enter the field of writing.  Still, there is a slant to the forum that is a deterent to getting out of it what one desires.  

This isn't a  democratic political society - it's a web forum and as such a majority / mob rules situation.  Seeing as there is no consensus whatsoever, a landslide of negative opinion could shake the confidence of some people.  (Not including myself here although once or twice I have had my back up over a comment but..... I have more than enough faith to stem the tide)  

So what is this mob rule idea?  As in all things, 20% of the people will be oppossed by 50% of the people and another 30% will sit on the fence, staying clear of the fracas, keeping themselves clear of any mudslinging.  

For the record - The Tourist didn't have to sell me a belief system - I was already a member of that church long before I came here.  That would be "The Church of the Quality Written Word."  A perfectly written sentence is God.  Bierce, Shakespeare, Joyce, McCormac, Atwood, Poe, Hemingway and many others are Angels.  Trends, Marketing, Editors, Multi-million dollar a year hacks and 16 year old fans of Twilight are the Devil.  

Of equal merit, anyone who doesn't realize that with every word written or spoken they are selling a belief system is rather naive, don't you think?  

I see this thread as being a direct continuation of another thread I responded to today.  A member asked about learning to write 19th century style prose.  The majority came out against the idea.  

The message must then be interpretted as "Don't challenge yourself, don't try that, don't go off the beaten path, conform, compromise and hey.....write a sci-fi, young adult paranormal romance novel instead."  

Nuff Said.

David Gordon Burke


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## shadowwalker (Oct 14, 2013)

David Gordon Burke said:


> The message must then be interpretted as "Don't challenge yourself, don't try that, don't go off the beaten path, conform, compromise and hey.....write a sci-fi, young adult paranormal romance novel instead."



If that's how you're interpreting things, then it's not mob rule but simply your mis-interpretation of what's being said, or possibly an exaggerated response to people disagreeing with one's opinion.

Throughout all of these various threads, the point that is trying to be made is that quality is subjective, and no one's opinion makes them any better or worse than someone else. If you don't like a particular book or genre, that's fine. Great. No problem. Talk about why you don't like it. But when you start denigrating the readers and writers who do, then you're putting yourself up on a self-aggrandizing pedestal and yes, you will find yourself being knocked down from it. And, IMO, deservedly so.


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## Myers (Oct 14, 2013)

I've posted and read many stories and critiques in the Workshop, and I haven't really seen anything like "mob" rule or anything that resembles a "landslide of negative opinion." I have seen consensus among a few people on how something might be improved, usually in the form of suggestion. And along with that, there are often opposing views. In the end it's up to the author to decide what to take or leave. If your confidence is easily shaken or you're prone to jump based on what most people recommend, then maybe you shouldn't post your work for critique. (That's a general "you.")



David Gordon Burke said:


> I see this thread as being a direct continuation of another thread I  responded to today.  A member asked about learning to write 19th century  style prose.  The majority came out against the idea.
> 
> The message must then be interpretted as "Don't challenge yourself,  don't try that, don't go off the beaten path, conform, compromise and  hey.....write a sci-fi, young adult paranormal romance novel instead."



I checked out the thread. One person out of the two person mob said it was a bad idea. But the poster you _partially_ quoted in a way that lines up with your thinking went on to say:



> My writing is heavily influence by mid-20th century English, and even then I get a lot of heat for sounding archaic.
> 
> But don't let that discourage you. You won't know until you put it out  there. Criticism can be hard to hear, but it can also make you a better  writer.



Not really sure how that can be interpreted as "don't challenge yourself" or go write a YA paranormal book. I think Shadowwalker has it right. This is more about how you are interpreting things or what you're choosing to filter out based on preconceived ideas, since the above is pretty much the opposite of what you were saying.


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## The Tourist (Oct 14, 2013)

'Walker, I just exchanged PMs with another member here about this topic.  The problems surrounding the theme are felt by many here.

For every guy who moans and complains about the overall idea, there are an equal number of folks who strive for creativity, and take umbrage at the sloppy work habits amid the excuses.

Honestly, it seems simple to me.  It's a "creative" writing forum, not "Rip-Offs R Us."

Last year I was a member of another creative writing board (one where I contacted the head moderator and asked him to disconnect my account) where a contributor actually posted he had a strong female lead who was an expert archer--but claimed the story had nothing to do with THG.  Yikes.

Since when does asking a person--supposedly a person who loves books--become an affront in discussing things like plot development, punctuation, language and original themes?  Then, naturally, they point to some dismal attempt whose only saving grace is a pile of money and attempt to justify being an easy rider.

Some years ago one sportscaster wrote that millions of kids have hoop dreams, but only 7,500 individuals in the entire history of basketball made it to the pros.   The same goes for us.  Yes, sloppy books get made into equally sloppy movies and make untold millions.  Yet as I've mentioned before, unsolicited manuscripts get taken to the dumpster (without being read) by a forklift truck.  And that was only the comment from one studio.

You have a better shot in writing good stories, and the guys here with gray hair should be a mentor for that idea.  That is, unless you gush over cookie-cutter novels about a strong female lead fairy who stems the zombie apocalypse because she's a magical archer...


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## Myers (Oct 14, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> For every guy who moans and complains about the overall idea, there are an equal number of folks who strive for creativity, and take umbrage at the sloppy work habits amid the excuses.



Expect that no one here is moaning about anything or saying that you shouldn't strive for creativity or that sloppy work habits are OK. What this has been about is pointing to a few mega-sellers that have caught on despite what some people consider poor mechanics or sloppy writing. All anyone has done is acknowledge that the books are popular because the stories are good. No one has said that bad syntax or derivative story lines are just peachy. Furthermore, just because someone might enjoy_ Twilight_ or whatever, it doesn't mean he or she writes like Stephanie Myer. It's a ridiculous assumption.

There's nothing automatically special about striving for quality, so some people really do need get over themselves, as was suggested. And I would contend that's the baseline for quite a few people here. I know that's the way is for me. All this grandstanding over quality is pointless; and if you strip away all the ego-driven nonsense and finger pointing, it mostly amounts to preaching to the choir.


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## FleshEater (Oct 14, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Last year I was a member of another creative writing board (one where I contacted the head moderator and asked him to disconnect my account) where a contributor actually posted he had a strong female lead who was an expert archer--but claimed the story had nothing to do with THG.  Yikes.



And The Hunger Games looks A LOT like Battle Royale. So what's the difference? In fact, The Hunger Games looks so much like BR that after those books were adapted to film, BR FINALLY got a Region 1 NTSC release, as well as a brand new translation for the novel.


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## Jamie (Oct 14, 2013)

Two things I'm struggling to understand here.

1) Why anyone who may be slightly apprehensive about showcasing their novice writing skills would want to stick around these forums knowing such people are members here.
2) Why top class, special, creative writers with nothing but brand new, exciting ideas ready to break the mould aren't being snapped up by publishers left, right and centre.

I'm also wondering if my dad could beat up your dad.


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## shadowwalker (Oct 14, 2013)

Jamie said:


> Two things I'm struggling to understand here.
> 
> 1) Why anyone who may be slightly apprehensive about showcasing their novice writing skills would want to stick around these forums knowing such people are members here.



I can try to answer the first question.

Almost any forum, on any subject, is going to have people with a variety of experience, knowledge, and opinion. One way to discover who generally has good advice and who generally is full of hot air is to lurk for a while. And, of course, if something is said that is troubling, depending on severity either report the post or contact a staff member. 

Every new writer is apprehensive about showing their stuff. Part of the learning curve is developing a thick skin - but that doesn't mean one has to accept abusive, non-constructive comments. I hope we make that point clear, but perhaps it needs to be made more prominent. I can only say that, of all the forums I'm involved in, this one is the most supportive of new writers. Yes, there are "difficult" members, and sometimes it's hard not to respond in kind (I'm as guilty of that as the next guy) but overall, we try very hard to be helpful and constructive, versus judgmental and negative.


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## Morkonan (Oct 14, 2013)

Myers said:


> Invitations only writers groups aren't about discussing writing. They primarily focus on critique...



Yes,  you're correct. I suppose that I was a bit guilty of only skimming the  surface of the topic, without delving into the deeps. It's also possible  that I was not avoiding my own bias.. Possibly.  (Bias as in  predilection, not negativity.)

I come here not for critique or  mechanics lessons, but to discuss writing and, through that discussion,  acquire new insights into my own writing. There's also a part of me that  is highly interested in how the human mind comes to comprehend  third-party information as "a entertaining story." I'm not as interested  in the mechanical building blocks of storycrafting as much as I am _why_  those building blocks are arranged the way they are. Why does it seem  that the presentation of certain aspects of a Plot are necessarily done  by such-and-such means, within such and such context? An editor may say  that such construction is expected by Readers and that, while some  mechanics are different, following cultural trends, the basics remain  the same. With my background and personal interests, I'm much more  concerned with why, as human beings, we prefer to have a story presented  in a certain order, with certain facts that must be unveiled in a  particular sequence or paired strongly enough with certain other  segments in order for the story to be entertaining. For instance, why is  the "End" of the story traditionally at the "End" of a book? IOW - Why  is the culmination of the Plot at the end of the book? It's not  necessary, is it? After all, many books start with the last scene,  prompting the Reader to read on to discover what that scene was all  about. Yet, even here, we can find that entertaining, despite its  deviation from convention. _Why?_ There are evolutionarily forces  at work, to be sure, and our brains are naturally attuned to cause and  effect relationships. In fact, we're hardwired to interpret cause and  effect, though some have more difficulty doing that than others. I don't  expect to solve the mystery of storycrafting by using a forum.  But,  it does give me an opportunity to see it exposed, in its raw,  unfinished, form. I can watch it evolve and, hopefully, learn something  from that experience. (And blatantly spend commas, like they're going  out of style.)

Quite a lot of nonsense, yes? I suppose that's  why, initially, my post wasn't eagerly supportive of the notion in the  OP. If I was interested in critique or needed "professional" help, of  course I could see the value in such things. (For the best benefits to  be obtained, Alpha and Beta Readers should be well versed in story  mechanics.) And, honestly, I think it's generally acknowledged that such  a thing could offer a refuge to writers who desire contact with their  peers, but wish to distance themselves from open-ended message boards,  where just anyone could walk through the door. Still, one can learn from  the questions asked and problems put forth by neophytes, regardless if  one is only just well learned or is already a master.

In fact, I  learned something, just today, from creating an answer to a post by  someone who was attempting to craft a magic system. (In the Research  forum.) It's something I thought I already knew, but I truly didn't grok  it until I required myself to think about the answer to the question -  Absurdity is relative and the writer has complete control of it. It's  just not possible to come up with a notion so absurd that it couldn't be  used in a story. What is possible, though, is a writer who bites off a  chunk of absurdity that they don't have the skill to pull off.  This  may sound simple and most would say that it's one of the first things  one should learn as a writer. (Well, I would say that, mostly.) But, to  actually comprehend it fully and feel at complete ease with it is  another thing, entirely. I now _know_ this. In the few minutes that it took for full illumination, I came to full understanding. I also know _why_  I know it, which is no mean feat. I also know why I had mistakenly  assumed knowledge and the deductive process I had to go through, today,  for full comprehension of it. Further, by coming to that understanding, I  now see exactly how it is done, even by other writers who don't realize  how they're doing it. This part of the curtain no longer hides the  trappings of the stage. By being forced to answer such questions, one  learns. It's like that with anything. There's a quote that's often  attribute to Einstein : "_If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough_." Some things I understand well enough to explain simply, some things I _think_  I understand well enough and, for the rest, I'm still trying to  discover the simple explanations. I found one, today. (No, I didn't  express such revelations in that post and, honestly, was so struck by it  that I probably didn't answer the original question very well.  )

I  may not have been able to do that in a different environment. If I  restricted myself to only those sorts of environments, it may never have  happened. Thus, I'm a better writer, right now, than I was yesterday. I  may not have been able to achieve that had I not crawled back down into  the muck with the rest of the barbarous yawpers, nasty brutish and  short... (Sorry, mixing Whitman and Hobbes doesn't always work.  )

* Disclaimer - Excessive smiley use deemed necessary in order to avoid any possibility for misinterpretation of intent because the poster isn't a good enough writer to express his goodwill with just plain 'ol words. Plus, he's been up for 24 hours... writing.


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## Jeko (Oct 14, 2013)

> For every guy who moans and complains about the overall idea, there are an equal number of folks who strive for creativity, and take umbrage at the sloppy work habits amid the excuses.



Well, why not try to help more, instead of creating threads about a problem that few other people seem to take 'umbrage' with?

You complain a lot, The Tourist. If you have so much understanding of the craft, why not use it to benefit others? You could be a great service to many of the more inexperienced members of the forum.


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## Myers (Oct 14, 2013)

Morkonan said:


> I come here not for critique or  mechanics lessons, but to discuss writing and, through that discussion,  acquire new insights into my own writing.



I've given it the old college try, but I have to say I haven't gotten much out of the discussions. Most the topics are pretty elementary, fine for beginners, but it's mostly about stuff I've seen and considered, and a lot of it doesn't apply to what I do. I've never even read a book with a "magic system" and it's not likely I ever will until my kids are old enough for Harry Potter.  And I don't read books with "villains" or care about world building. Just not my thing.

On the other hand, I've gotten a lot out of the Workshop. Even though I've only posted three short stories, I've read a lot stories and chapters going way back and have learned a lot from the critiques. I won't mention them, but there are some really talented, published writers here; and on top of that, they give really good advice. And I really like the idea that there are writers here who can walk the walk, and I can see evidence of it. 

I mean, fine, someone can get up on his "quality" soapbox, but how do I know he's not just blowing smoke? Then I look at Kyle's eloquent defense of the concept that we can learn from books like _Twilight_; and low and behold, I can read his work in the Workshop and see for myself that he's a good writer and obviously cares a lot about quality, despite what's been implied.

The important difference to me is context. To me, it's far more efficient and clear when you're talking about something you can see in black and white as opposed to some vague description of a concept, or worse, the little things people make up to prove some point.

And if want to learn about something specific, I'll Google it. I'm likely going to find several articles or blog posts written by published writers or agents who have put a lot of time and effort into presenting their ideas. No offense to anyone here, but I'm probably going to get better information elsewhere without having to wade through a lot of extraneous stuff, some of which is just off base.

But you know, we're all here for different reasons. Maybe I'm missing something in the discussions. I obviously haven't given up on them, and I do enjoy participating, even if it's just for entertainment. But right now, I'm getting a lot more out reading the stories and crits in the Workshop, even if I don't always comment.


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## The Tourist (Oct 14, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> And The Hunger Games looks A LOT like Battle Royale.



Well, you're preaching to the choir, but it's a good observation.

I once got into a similar debate and asked a detractor about my new story.  I told him/her that my "new" novel was about a post-apocalyptic society, short on food, where a corrupt government had citizens fight to the death for amusement.  An unlikely hero emerges, much to the chagrin of a demented emcee.

Naturally, my detractor said that was THG.

I responded, no, it's based on "The Running Man," the book that THG plagiarized. 

Now, you can argue that everything is based on something else.  For example, every western movie from 1920 until 1960 had the same plot.  The only variation was the inclusion of "the singing cowboy."

However, some authors don't even try.  It's like a patent, if you can show "demonstrable improvement" you get a patent on an existing invention.

I guess bizarre face paint was enough to qualify for THG.  I feel strongly about this.  The only creative use of a zombie I've seen in the last ten years appeared on a Sprint commercial.  The rest look like they were all written by the same hack.


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## Sam (Oct 14, 2013)

_The Hunger Games _(2009) is more similar to _The Lord of the Flies _(1954) and _Nineteen Eighty-Four _(1949) than _The Running Man_ (1982), which is itself an extension of _The Most Dangerous Game_ (1932). That's literature for you.


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## The Tourist (Oct 14, 2013)

Sam, sadly, you made my point better than I did.  But then, when I got into trouble as a kid I told my dad that my brother did the same stuff, too.  It didn't make my sin any less egregious.

Plagiarism is plagiarism, and if we want respect as writers we should grant it to those wrote came before us.

In fact I often wonder what would happen if I took the life's work of a THG apologist and ripped-off his work.  You know, take his heroine's broadhead tipped arrows and change the ones in my knock-off to obsidian.  If his strong female lead is a redhead, I'll make mine henna--just enough to be different but with the same exact plot.

How much do you want to bet a guy like that will chew the scenery in the forum and contact his attorney...


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## Morkonan (Oct 14, 2013)

Myers said:


> I've given it the old college try, but I have to say I haven't gotten much out of the discussions. Most the topics are pretty elementary, fine for beginners, but it's mostly about stuff I've seen and considered, and a lot of it doesn't apply to what I do. I've never even read a book with a "magic system" and it's not likely I ever will until my kids are old enough for Harry Potter.  And I don't read books with "villains" or care about world building. Just not my thing.



I learned exactly nothing about creating a "magic system" by posting an answer to the question.  However, I did learn everything I needed to answer my own questions about "absurdity" in a story. "Absurdity" in that story elements appear hopelessly implausible when compared to the real world or they are so outrageously magnified as to appear "absurd." "Magic" is largely, absurd, strictly speaking. It's only within certain genres and Settings that it is viewed as acceptable. A lot of stories without magic have a level of absurdity to them. Horror, comedy and even literary pieces can have elements that are over-the-top or might be viewed as implausible or impossible, outside of their Setting. So, if you want to introduce and maintain a particularly absurd notion, in order to bounce characters or plots off of it, then you have to be very careful to avoid alienating your Readers. "That wouldn't happen in real life" sorts of absurdity is something you've either thought yourself, when reading a story, or heard others say it. But, with stories that you've liked, you've accepted the absurdity because failing to do so would ruin your enjoyment of the story.



> The important difference to me is context. To me, it's far more efficient and clear when you're talking about something you can see in black and white as opposed to some vague description of a concept, or worse, the little things people make up to prove some point.
> 
> And if want to learn about something specific, I'll Google it. I'm likely going to find several articles or blog posts written by published writers or agents who have put a lot of time and effort into presenting their ideas. No offense to anyone here, but I'm probably going to get better information elsewhere without having to wade through a lot of extraneous stuff, some of which is just off base.
> 
> But you know, we're all here for different reasons. Maybe I'm missing something in the discussions. I obviously haven't given up on them, and I do enjoy participating, even if it's just for entertainment. But right now, I'm getting a lot more out reading the stories and crits in the Workshop, even if I don't always comment.



Everyone learns differently. The most important thing I can think of is that one has to judge each bit of information on its own apparent merit. Did something someone wrote make sense to you? Did it answer a question you may have had? Or, does it appear to be lacking credibility in some way? You can't expect an example for everything, but you certainly might be able to formulate your own, just because someone crafted an informative response.

As you say, we all do what we do for different reasons. If we were all the same, our stories would be guaranteed to be boring. 

Note: I've read a lot of books by pros in the industry and one thing I can say with complete certainty - Professionals are capable of spouting nonsense, just like non-professionals. Writers take many paths and they don't even view all of those the same way. What sorts of explanations and examples work for one of them may seem like nonsense to another. One of them might not be able to learn from the other, despite their well written direction. I guess it's just all in the wrist...


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## WechtleinUns (Oct 14, 2013)

Hmm... quite interesting, The Tourist. Personally, I've never really seen these forums as a place specifically to improve the craft of my writing. I do feel that I have benefited a lot from these forums, but I also tend to extremely well on my own when learning any subject that I can describe in technical terminology. I suspect that many of the people that come here have additional reasons for joining, especially because, strictly speaking, the craft of writing prose doesn't necessarily need human companionship to improve upon. I'm sure it can be improved upon by such, but I don't think it is absolutely requisite.

However, The Tourist, I do find something else interesting in what you say. It seems to me that you like being outspoken. Or, at the very least, that you're not someone who is ok with just sitting still and following the rules. I feel you have enough self control to avoid any true transgressions of the rules. At the same time, however, I do feel like you're smart enough to generate conflict without necessarily going over-board.

Take this thread, for example. It is the perfect sort of thread to cause mild waves of conflict. It is bristling with mild tension, but also vague enough to allow a wide interpretation of it. It also avoids specifically insulting or offending any one specific member or group of members of the forum, and certainly avoids insulting/offending the character of the forum itself.

Furthermore, you write well enough, and avoid the usage of curse and swear words to an admirable extent. No one wants to appear to totalitarion, or worse, draconian. In your case, I get the feeling that censure aimed at you would only serve to vindicate or justify what you say. In that respect, you would feel justified in continuing to say it.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with any of this. Then again, I may be missing some aspect of the situation. And further, I have the rather unfortunate tendency to become embroiled in the intricacies of a type of system(in this case, a social one), without feeling obliged to pronounce any sort of final moral judgement on the system, or the free agents within it.

So, to someone like me, I find this sort of stuff fascinating, but only in the same sense as I find Predicate Logic and Boolean Calculus to be fascinating. I would make a poor persecutor. I'm not even sure if that particular social role would be appropriate in this situation.

Of course, to get back to the original question, I'm not sure if I'd need to be on a forum with 6 or 7 guys that are just like me. Granted, I wouldn't object to a forum with 6 or 7 guys that don't flame, troll, what-have-you.

As far as writing is concerned, I do feel that I am making progress. "All the rest is logistics", as they say.


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## The Tourist (Oct 14, 2013)

WechtleinUns said:


> However, The Tourist, I do find something else interesting in what you say. It seems to me that you like being outspoken.



Actually, it's the other way around.  I see being opinionated as backlash against the wussery of America.  People won't tell you what they really think.  If you forget to add the right smilie or IMHO you might get labeled a jingoist.  In dealing with most folks I feel like screaming, _"Stuff the agenda, just speak the truth once in your life!"_

Give you an example.  One of the magazines I read mentioned a newspaper article about a carjacking attempt.  It seems three thugs attacked a car owner, who fended them off and managed to get inside the automobile to his firearm.  As one thug tried to pry open the door, the car owner shot and killed him.  But that's not what offended me.

The newspaper referred to the dead thug as "the victim."  It appears you cease being the victim if you become the victor.

Well, I don't want to be the guy with the smooth delivery, the velvet excuse and the duplicitous dagger under your armor.  There is plagiarism in the world, we bilk too many working people to support the sick, lame and lazy and some folks need to get shot.

Call it confrontational if you like, however I will always attempt to choose the correct adjective in literature, and the fairest application of freedom--but also the sharpest knife and the deadliest hollowpoint.

And lest you think this is hyperbole, we buried a brother in a gang war.


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## philistine (Oct 14, 2013)

I only read the threads which pique my interests, which, as I imagine it is for many other users, are not that many. 

The rest I just ignore.


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## The Tourist (Oct 14, 2013)

philistine said:


> I only read the threads which pique my interests, which, as I imagine it is for many other users, are not that many.
> 
> The rest I just ignore.



I'm with you 95% of the way, with one proviso.  That being the work of younger writers.

Granted, I often bend too much to find something I like.  Recently I read a less than stellar first chapter.  I went back and read it twice more.  Then I set it aside and tried later that evening.  I wound up having to bow out of the fray, trying to be honest but encouraging the writer to refine his craft.

It's a very hard tightrope to walk.  If you want your good reviews to have merit, then you have to be honest when the work needs a severe re-write.


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## Morkonan (Oct 15, 2013)

Meh, was going to post, decided against it. Can't find the delete button.


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## Jeko (Oct 15, 2013)

> I went back and read it twice more. Then I set it aside and tried later that evening. I wound up having to bow out of the fray, trying to be honest but encouraging the writer to refine his craft.
> 
> It's a very hard tightrope to walk.



No it's not. If you want to help someone, you help them. There's no diplomacy. No politics. You say what you think will benefit them as a writer.

There's no 'fray' except the one you make.



> However, some authors don't even try.



You sound like one of them.


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## Kevin (Oct 15, 2013)

You look fat* in those jeans; like a whale. In fact, unless you do something really drastic, like join a bootcamp, or starve yourself, I don't see how you could ever wear those, or for that matter, any jeans, ever. It's embarrassing. Everyone can see it. 

 So...should I tell you? I mean, you asked. You came out on stage, a small stage, and asked everyone. Should I just point out that they're a little tight, here and there, and a little lumpy, and look...not so good, when actually, they look awful. You look...awful; really awful, with more than a few lumps, and I don't see how you could ever hope to...not without drastic revisions, of which you're not capable, at least not now.

 That's my impression, my 'true' impression, but then who the heck am I? Am I an expert? No, I'm not. 

 Maybe if I try to be a little 'politic', you know, not so forth coming or harsh...just try to point out a few mistakes, and be...less than...well...if there's any way to encourage, but...maybe I'm better off saying nothing, if I'm not going to 100% ...  JSTs


* apologies to anyone who takes offence. It's just a metaphor, a common scenario with prejudices...


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## Jamie (Oct 15, 2013)

It's becoming monstrously tiring now. We get it, you're a better writer than most and you have wonderfully inventive and original ideas. So why are you wasting your time here? Go and write something and stop boring everyone.


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## Gavrushka (Oct 15, 2013)

I must admit, although tolerant of others' opinions, I am struggling now. It is one thing to disagree with others, but to see someone with a seeming total disconnect from the effect their posts have on a community is something I am struggling to put up with.

A diverse range of opinions is one thing, but posts that poison threads, and add nothing other than satisfy a specific individuals penchant for monologuing is backing me towards the exit.


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## The Tourist (Oct 15, 2013)

C'mon, guys, knock it off or start your own thread!  I'm not in the mood for whining that can be heard over your mom's vacuuming!

You got something to say--to me, or someone else--than express yourself like the authors you pretend to be and not characters in a video game!


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## David Gordon Burke (Oct 15, 2013)

Cadence said:


> No it's not. If you want to help someone, you help them. There's no diplomacy. No politics. You say what you think will benefit them as a writer.
> There's no 'fray' except the one you make.
> You sound like one of them.



See that's where you are deluding yourself.  There is no honest critique of anyone's work unless there is a certain level of honesty across the whole board.  Yet if anyone mentions the obvious facts concerning something that is dear to the heart of the lost majority, they get sliced to pieces and a lie is perpetrated.  
However those same people that come out in force to defend their "Holy Grail" have no compunctions in touting their view as the better one.  
Honesty.  It's hardly ever heard.  

Here's the ever loving truth.
1.  Those people writing Paranormal Romance which by the way IS NOT A GENRE - it's a Marketing Ploy and is largely based on Plagarism - 99% of you who do continue to write won't be writing in that style - it may be a good vehicle for learning your craft but by the time you get to the point of submitting a work, the FAD will be over.  PS.  The Genre is called Horror.  Add in Romance and it's automatically derivative, trendy and will never be taken seriously.  (by anyone that has left primary school that is)

2.  While writing in that style may allow one to learn something about plotting, dialogue, back story, themes, etc (doubtful). It's standing on the shoulders of everyone who came before.  It's taking credit for someone else's invention.  Why is Amanda Hocking the #1 Amazon independent writer (ok, so she hasn't gone very far from the big bucks ie: the teen market but....) she invented a whole universe of "changelings" or whatever she calls them.  How much of that is 100% original I don't know but it's not Old, overdone and trendy like Vampires.

3.  The Whole Wide World is Vamped - out.  No more vampires please .... we're just sick to death of vampires.  Buffy, Vamp Diaries, True Blood, Twilight, Angel, Blood Ties, Blade, Moonlight, Being Human .... it just goes on and on and on and on.... and a writer wants to be taken seriously writing in this genre?  Please!

4.  Walk before you run.  How does a young writer expect to write cutting edge Horror or Sci-fi if he or she hasn't mastered the art of writing and describing the world we all live in now?  Every piece I have read here in those genres has had the same problem.  Doing too much, too fast.  Action out of the gate, _Oh, and by the way, it all takes place on the cheese planet which is being attacked by Robot Rats .... pssst psst ..... I'll fill you in on the details later ...... keep your head down or you'll get blasted by the fecal critique laser.  _Sheesh. 

Now of course the Politically correct and diplomatically savy members of the forum will hardly jump on board to back me up on all this but......they know that picking Paranormal Romance as "your" genre doesn't make you a serious writer.  What it makes you is Mundane.  Average.  Predictable.  A certain segment will consider that insulting, derrogatory, lacking-respect blah, blah, blah.  And of course there will be those people who will defend a young writer's right to waste their time.  It's impolite and Im-Politic to speak the truth.  This is not my truth.  It is the brutal reality of the world.  Someone should say it.  

Please explain to me how I am lying - How am I wrong here?  Go into any bookstore - Look around.  The largest section in the store is inevitably dedicated to the Young Adult secion which is swamped by book after book after book and each one looks the same as the next.  It has been this way for five or six years.  How long does anyone think this is going to last?  Even considering the unlikely possiblity that it goes on forever - how many writers are out there, churning out thousands and thousands of novels every year in the same genre?  What percentage of them are being rejected?  But of course.....***Your novel is sure to be picked for publication because it is so much better. (insert sarcastic tone here)

Bottom line....and if one were to take this as an "I hope all young writers fail miserably" response they would be getting me all wrong.  The truth is that in my world, a friend isn't someone who tells you what you want to hear, it's the guy who tells you the truth you need to hear.  

Be original.  Create your own genre.  In the current YAPR world the competition is about 1 to 1 million.  In your own, original genre ..... there is no competition.  That´s how winners are born.  The blaze their own path.  Leaders lead ... cannon fodder follows.  
There.  Now the truth is out and the air is cleared.

David Gordon Burke


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## Motley (Oct 15, 2013)

I'm pretty new around here, and just read through this thread. Of course, I have little history to go on when it comes to judging particular people. I have to say, though, that this in no way makes me want to leave. It's an excellent character study.

Last post appeared while I was writing apparently.

Is this whole thing about 'art' vs. 'product' writing? That old argument?
It's funny The Tourist mentioned video game characters. This really is starting to sound like a lot of young trolls in video games who think they're epic and everyone else is fail.

I dislike shoddy writing as much as the next person. I hate that badly-written novels become so popular, but I think it's the _writing _that's the problem.


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## spartan928 (Oct 15, 2013)

David Gordon Burke said:


> For the record - The Tourist didn't have to sell me a belief system - I was already a member of that church long before I came here.  That would be "The Church of the Quality Written Word."  A perfectly written sentence is God.  Bierce, Shakespeare, Joyce, McCormac, Atwood, Poe, Hemingway and many others are Angels.  Trends, Marketing, Editors, Multi-million dollar a year hacks and 16 year old fans of Twilight are the Devil.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Really? Is writing ever about us versus them, or is that what people make it? How about the concept that writing just is. It's something somebody spilled onto a page. Good, bad or indifferent is up to the reader so why should I judge the impact that writing has for somebody else? Why would I care that teens adore Hunger games or whatever the flavor of the year is? Why is that analogous to something evil? My answer is I don't really care. The notion that popular literature that appeals to the masses is somehow detrimental to "quality" writing is bogus and paranoid. There's more quality out there than a person can read in a lifetime if you look for it and there always will be.


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## The Tourist (Oct 15, 2013)

spartan928 said:


> Really? Is writing ever about us versus them, or is that what people make it? How about the concept that writing just is.



Because good writing starts with an idea, a vehicle to express your views of love, life, jobs and society.

If you sanitize your writing of every conjecture that might have the hint of opinion then you are essentially just re-stringing Katniss' bow and telling her she's pretty for a starving girl.

I don't mind detractors.  I do have an abject disgust for easy riders who use the anonymity of the keyboard instead of a getting bus money from their moms to come and see me.  You're a writer, and like a good attorney you should be able to see the wisdom of all sides of an issue, and utilize your vision to craft an original story.

Look, I don't want to post a thread and get 17 responses of "Me, too."  If something fires your imagination or ire, use the language and deliver the message.  I like to read interesting stuff over the morning latte' and newspaper.

What did I say to offend you, and what is your rebuttal?


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## spartan928 (Oct 15, 2013)

I'm not offended. In fact, my comment wasn't directed at you so not sure what you are asking. I made a comment about the analogy of good and evil being likened to quality in writing. To me that idea is superfluous. But anybody is free to hate on Hunger Games or whatever. It's a free country.


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## The Tourist (Oct 15, 2013)

Spartan, I agree--sorry for any confusion.  But I will give you a peek behind the curtain.  One of my "life lessons" was the skill to learn who was going to start a fight in a saloon.  And it was always that same personality type--the drunken loser, with no skills, no bike and the inability to talk to women without offending the entire gender.

Now, I expected more from writing forums.  But it appears that those same drunken posers are now into literature.  They do not build a story, they trash yours.  You find their book choices pedantic, and they yell so loud not that even the sound of their mom's clothes dryer doesn't drown them out.

Of course, you return the complement and they run behind the skirts of the moderators...

Again, this thread is about the exchange of ideas and viewing all factions with an open mind.  I'll be honest, I mourn the loss of the trees that died to publish zombie romps and YA fiction.  But then again I sometimes find my old theses from college and wonder what the heck I was thinking.

We have all this bandwidth and obviously our computers work.  What a privilege.


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## spartan928 (Oct 15, 2013)

I guess that's a good illustration of human nature. But you see, were I a drunken poser would I look in the mirror and tell myself that is who I was? No. Who ever does?


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## The Tourist (Oct 15, 2013)

spartan928 said:


> I guess that's a good illustration of human nature. But you see, were I a drunken poser would I look in the mirror and tell myself that is who I was? No. Who ever does?



LOL.  Good point.  The drunken townies of yore all thought they were studs, too, now that you mention it!

There's a comes a point in time (I think there's a DNA sequence that is magically triggered by gray hair) that lets you see the folly in history actually repeating itself.  I look at the stuff my dad and my mentors taught me, and it suddenly all makes sense.

I get all of the work I want, and my job is just rubbing stuff with a wet rock.  Yet, I see people complain (and newspapers lament) that people cannot find work or education costs too much.

Technically, my dad "paid" for my college.  He said, _"Look, you dumb kid, this is a loading dock, and those are heavy boxes of padlocks that need to go to clients.  And by the way, don't lip off to the forklift drivers, they'll beat the crap out of you..."_

I have no college debt, and I get my hands dirty everyday.

So now we come to writing, and frankly, our prose is just another facet of life.  Same rules, same society, same valuable producers and slothful easy riders as there ever was.  Nice thing about living in a republic, you get to pick a side.


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## spartan928 (Oct 15, 2013)

And the thing that always fascinates me is the role that talent comes into play. How easy or difficult it comes to the writer regardless of the "quality" of the finished product or how others perceive it. I am a much better writer than I think I am, but my writing is always much worse than I believe it to be.


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## Bilston Blue (Oct 15, 2013)

> _That would be "The Church of the Quality Written Word." A perfectly written sentence is God. Bierce, Shakespeare, Joyce, McCormac, Atwood, Poe, Hemingway and many others are Angels. Trends, Marketing, Editors, Multi-million dollar a year hacks and 16 year old fans of Twilight are the Devil. _



These devils you speak of, they the same ones who're getting kids across the world into reading books? Can't be such a bad thing, can it? Kids follow the crowd so they're the biggest market. Sell a book to a kid who ends up liking it, you've sold another half dozen without marketing, on word of mouth alone. But kids grow up and get bored of vamps and things and learn about other writers. I grew up on King and now love Hemingway and Wallace. 

I'd bin a teen vamp love story rather than have it on my bookshelf, but if kids learn to love books and even take up writing through such stuff, then that's a great thing, because the readers of the future are also the writers of the future. And reading and writing is about learning and improving, and that's better than hanging around in the streets like some kind of generation x-er with no future and no interests and no clue at all.

There used to be loads of encouragement around this place and literary snobbery used to be a thing (allegedly) found on other forums. Now it feels like the atmosphere on this old green ship is changing, which is a shame.

P.S. My final paragraph there is not aimed at the writer of the words I quoted at the top, simply an observation.


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## Jeko (Oct 15, 2013)

> See that's where you are deluding yourself. There is no honest critique of anyone's work unless there is a certain level of honesty across the whole board. Yet if anyone mentions the obvious facts concerning something that is dear to the heart of the lost majority, they get sliced to pieces and a lie is perpetrated.



I see what you're mean, but you're pointing out the important thing - it's the people receiving the critique, and the people surrounding them, who are at fault if you give a perfectly fine critique and they don't accept it. Having to tailor your response because other people are at fault is, I believe, wrong. Say what will benefit the writer. Leave your philosophy by the door; don't try to change the writer's mind and have them have an epiphany before your feet. Instead, focus on what you think is within their reach in terms of how they can improve. Then you avoid confrontation in the first place.

If I came across someone's YA Paranormal Romance WIP's first chapter, a little part of me goes 'ugh'. It gets shut up. I then read it and usually say something along the lines of 'this is a very popular, cliche-ridden genre' and go on to explain how they _can _be successful writing in this genre, in the context of their work, and the extract's shortcomings. Eg. 'the narrator doesn't seem to be aware of what they were sensing at the time - there's ample opportunity for touch, smell and sound to be incorporated into the action'. Or something.

Make it about the writing, not about the writer, and you end up helping the writer a lot more.



> I'm not in the mood for whining that can be heard over your mom's vacuuming!



You think _we're _whining? Wow. Just... wow.

You asked how I would feel. Reading your posts, The Tourist, I feel tired.


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## shadowwalker (Oct 15, 2013)

Cadence said:


> You think _we're _whining? Wow. Just... wow.
> 
> You asked how I would feel. Reading your posts, The Tourist, I feel tired.



qft


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## Apple Ice (Oct 15, 2013)

I haven't been involved much but I'm aware of how much controversy the Tourist has caused recently. What I find surprising is why people, after it's clear you will never get on, keep interacting. There was one member who actually dogged him around seeming to argue with him just for the sake of it. 

I think whenever you read a post on here by someone else just add "In my opinion" to the end of it. Because that's all these things are. I say an opinion, someone says their which is counter to it and that's that, obviously neither of us are changing our mind. But pursuing it to the point where you start to get personal with each other is just pathetic. Say your opinion and move on. Because this isn't science or a boxing a match we can't have a right answer or a winner. 

To the matter at hand, Stephanie Myers gets so much grief by people who can only dream of her success, she made it and because of her other people have made it. That's a good result and has gotten younger people reading who might not have. Save the words you were going to use to slag her off with and add them to your novel rather than being sour grapes about her success. In my opinion.


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## Jeko (Oct 15, 2013)

> I haven't been involved much but I'm aware of how much controversy the Tourist has caused recently. What I find surprising is why people, after it's clear you will never get on, keep interacting.



The main reason I enter The Tourist's threads is to try to find the potential for meaningful discussion that is buried somewhere in the OP.

For this thread, in my opinion, the meaningful subject was 'how to critique' and 'responding to people's critiques' and 'responding to people's response of your critiques'. As it has quickly devolved into the growing list of the faults The Tourist can find with the world, I don't think any more is going to be said on that subject.

I can honestly say that I don't think bad, amateur writing is a problem, even when it gets published. What is a problem is people who can do better but instead wax philosophical about everything that they think is bad. There's megatons of potential wasted every day. 

And I echo Bilston Blue's noble words. The children are the future; as long as they're reading _anything_, that's something to praise.


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## bookmasta (Oct 15, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> As you know we've been discussing quality in our writing over the past few weeks.  I make no secret of my feelings despite the fact I believe that the issue on just what is "good" will never be solved.  What is 'art,' anyway?  But I'd like to draw a parallel for your consideration.
> 
> Several months ago I got an e-mail from a member of another hobbyist forum asking me to join a new board set up by invitation only.  Intrigued, I signed up.  Not only did I find several dozen guys who cared as I do, but it was nice not to trip over flamers, guys who argue for the sake of arguing, and those with bizarre political agendas.
> 
> ...



There were a few parts of this OP that left me thinking like really? Such as "you post, and get flamed for being an elitist." Intelligence and ignorance are two difference realms of the spectrum. Besides the fact that this is basically a rant complaining about the quality of certain threats and condemning the skills of various writers I find myself wondering why this thread was made in the first place. I feel like the real purpose of this thread is to take a few shots at a few things that the OP doesn't like rather than actually trying to initiate a meaningful thread that actually serves a purpose. Beyond that, I believe that most simply skip what doesn't interest them and move on which is what I would recommend to The Tourist. Lastly, if someone does have frequent grammar mistakes then help them.


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## Terry D (Oct 15, 2013)

Bilston Blue said:


> These devils you speak of, they the same ones who're getting kids across the world into reading books? Can't be such a bad thing, can it? Kids follow the crowd so they're the biggest market. Sell a book to a kid who ends up liking it, you've sold another half dozen without marketing, on word of mouth alone. But kids grow up and get bored of vamps and things and learn about other writers. I grew up on King and now love Hemingway and Wallace.
> 
> I'd bin a teen vamp love story rather than have it on my bookshelf, but if kids learn to love books and even take up writing through such stuff, then that's a great thing, because the readers of the future are also the writers of the future. And reading and writing is about learning and improving, and that's better than hanging around in the streets like some kind of generation x-er with no future and no interests and no clue at all.
> 
> ...



Well said, Bilston.  But don't worry about the green lady, any snobbery you percieve will be transient at worst. Pedants and elitists (or those who think of themselves as elitist) quickly grow bored and travel on.


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## The Tourist (Oct 16, 2013)

Terry D said:


> quickly grow bored and travel on.



Possibly, but I cannot worry about everything and everyone.

I'm more concerned here about writers refining their craft.  I've also been around the block enough times to know that trends and crazes come and go.  But for some reason classic themes and good books always stand the test of time.  I even have a theory.

With the internet, e-books and self-publishing, we will flood every strata and channel with unadulterated junk.  It will be so prevalent that once again Yogi Berra will be proved correct.  After all, he once said, _"The restaurant is so crowded that no one goes there anymore."_  We will see the same thing.

You can buy aluminum siding by the metric ton, but people still hoard gold.  You can buy a moped for a few hundred bucks, but we lust for a big twin.  In like manner, I could go into B&N, toss a dart and I'll bet I hit a YA book, a THG rip-off, or a book with a half naked babe in armor wielding a claymore she couldn't possibly pick up.  These trends will fade soon enough.

And along with the bath-water, I'm afraid that many good writers will simply lose interest feeling that the written word is just white noise.

Speaking of noise, the next installment of THG is coming out.  Last time I made a small fortune in touching up broadheads for newbs shooting them into tree trunks...


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## shadowwalker (Oct 16, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> Possibly, but I cannot worry about everything and everyone.



The thing is, you continually harp on the same things, over and over and over. It's as if you're waiting for people to slap you on the back for your insight and wisdom, and when that doesn't happen, you start all over again. We _get _that there are books and genres you don't like. So don't read them. Quit whining about _them _and write _your _book instead.


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## bookmasta (Oct 16, 2013)

shadowwalker said:


> The thing is, you continually harp on the same things, over and over and over. It's as if you're waiting for people to slap you on the back for your insight and wisdom, and when that doesn't happen, you start all over again. We _get _that there are books and genres you don't like. So don't read them. Quit whining about _them _and write _your _book instead.



This.


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## Jeko (Oct 16, 2013)

FYI, The Tourist, the way that most YA fiction looks like THG and HP and Twilight is a marketing ploy used to attract readers of popular fiction to other books of that genre, one done by both the writer and the publisher. The stories themselves can differ incredibly.

For example, 'Glass Houses' is a book about vampires and its cover makes it look like it's going to be like Twilight. It isn't. It's written by an already bestselling author and is far more about peer pressure and hyperbolic representation of the dangers of college life than it is about vampires. Vampires are a device. They're a beacon for young readers to flock to. They also dictate elements of the plot and act as a focus point while a lot more is going on than just blood-sucking and romance. Basically, when used correctly, they make money. The 'Beautiful Dead' books are a recent example of how the trend is still surviving.

Likewise for The Hunger Games-esque fiction. I have crossed many books with stickers such as 'Like The Hunger Games? You'll love ______' or something like that. It's a gimmick. It gets money. The story itself stands upon its own merit (or lack of it) and only uses these things to get their foot in the reader's door. The rest of the story may be also full of tropes and devices used to captivate the reader; so what? Literature may be an art, but its also a business, and those who know and respect the art the most know how to stop whining about the business side of it and understand it for what it is - making money.

All in all, The Tourist, you claim yourself to be above these things, but you are getting snared by them just as much as my classmates are. Get out of the trap. Write something useful.


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## Fred (Oct 16, 2013)

Cadence said:


> ..the way that most YA fiction looks like THG and HP and Twilight is a marketing ploy used to attract readers of popular fiction to other books of that genre, one done by both the writer and the publisher. The stories themselves can differ incredibly...



This. For the same reasons movie posters proclaim credentials like "From the people that brought you…" or "Academy Award Winner…" It's just convenient shorthand that benefits creators pitching to publishers/producers, publishers/producers pitching to audiences, and friends pitching to friends. It works, but the comparisons are not always appropriate and one ought not take it all literally. I've read neither Charlaine Harris nor Stephanie Meyer, for example, but I do watch _True Blood_ and I have seen one _Twilight_ movie. I was surprised to come across some journalism that placed them in the same (ahem) vein, and imagine some parents would be utterly appalled if they took that as guidance for their pre-teen daughter's birthday present...


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## The Tourist (Oct 16, 2013)

Fred, I know that the times keeps on slipping, but sometimes this "act of discovery" baffles me.  And as I get older I get saddened more by the news than angered.

Just as good literature enriches lives, digesting junk twists the process.  You might criticize me for the bloodbath that erupted in the 1970s as my culture sorted itself out, but now twelve year old girls are visiting death upon each other.  Where did these themes come from.  Well, duh.

This isn't "literature."  But there are billions of dollars on the line, and if Twilight sales can build you a mansion in Beverly Hills, than what's the problem with a few casualties?

I watch TV less and less.  I'm pickier about books and their themes.  The last movie I saw in a theater was the Will Smith film, "I, Robot."  And that's both a conscious and unconscious decision.

For example, did you ever come home on Friday, sit down feeling you fought the good fight and ordered a pizza while pouring a crystal tumbler of Don Julio?  Two things usually happened to me twenty years ago when I did it.  First, my appetites were slaked and I stopped.  Then I realized I was going to wake up groggy and have to haul my sorry butt to the gym to work off the needless intake.

I don't do that anymore.  Unconsciously you might stop eating, but finally you realize letting trash into your life always has a price.

That concept delineates to this thread.  If all you read is junkfood novels on vampires, and spec-ops devastation coupled with violent videos, pretty soon that world becomes more real than the pathetic life you lead.  And the way out is the same as problems with food or drink.

You wake up, you realize that some publisher with an agenda just picked your pocket of several hundred dollars for vampire books, movies, videos, fake fangs and other Halloween paraphernalia, and then you go buy a decent book.

Now, how do we sell that idea?


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## Kyle R (Oct 16, 2013)

For discussion's sake, since you clearly dislike _The Hunger Games _and _Twilight_, how about we talk about them as fictional constructs?

What do you think of the plot structure? The thematic elements? Characterization? Writing voice and overall concept?

If you really want to understand what makes such books so popular, and enhance your understanding of the craft, these are the questions to be asking. 

As far as YA books go, there's much more to their success than plot. _The Hunger Games_' mainstream success is only partially due to the gladiator-esque games that take place in it. After that element is taken away, its similarities with _Battle Royale_ and _The Running Man_ and others end. They are, mostly, there to provide a vehicle of conflict, a linear scene-sequel outline to propel the characters forward and keep the reader invested. Keeping the stakes high, either emotional or physical (ideally both), a common technique taught in MFA programs left and right.

But it's the blossoming romantic relationships between the characters (Katniss and Peeta, Katniss and Gale, Bella and Edward, Bella and Jacob) that attract so many teenage readers. If you study fan reactions, its the _relationships_ between the characters that they get so excited about, the quiet scenes, the intimate moments.

Why? Because this is the time of their lives where such new emotional territory is opening up to them. A lot of the successful YA authors _know this_. They _understand this_. They _incorporate this_ into their stories for that specific reason. Not to milk money out of pockets, but because, for many (as I've read the interviews), they find this period of life fascinating and rich with emotional turbulence. 

YA Romance, be it paranormal or dystopian, deals with situations that many of the readers are struggling with at this period in their lives. It's the same reason Adult Romance flourishes among the adult readers. The situations deal with heavier, more complicated themes often, such as infidelity, death of a loved one, et cetera.

I recommend looking with a more deconstructionists eye at popular fiction to see _why_ it is so popular, as opposed to automatically dismissing it as fluff.

There's a tangled web of different facets that create such popular books, and often it goes much deeper than the surface traits of the story.


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## The Tourist (Oct 16, 2013)

KyleColorado said:


> What do you think of the plot structure? The thematic elements? Characterization? Writing voice and overall concept?.



In the case of Twilight, not much.  In hindsight I thought there was more drama and intrigue in the personal lives of the young actors who played the roles than in the characters they portrayed.  In fact, this is a case of where "the making of the movie" would have been more interesting to watch than the entire storyline--books and movies combined.

The plot of "Taps" is essentially the same story, and accomplished getting the message across and making you care more, it was a better story.  In short, I don't see where Twilight did anything but shamelessly make money--and they slapped my relatives into prison for that.


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## Fred (Oct 16, 2013)

T - You're not alone in your despair and frustration at the state of many aspects of popular culture. It's a trail that has been blazed for as long as there's been popular culture, and we can point the fingers of blame in many, many directions. As I remarked in my post above, I recognise the efficacy of the comparison practice in economic terms, whilst being aware of the risks in social terms. I haven't read anything by Stephanie Meyer, but if I denied myself everything to do with vampires based on _Twilight_ detractors' hearsay, I'd be denied Joss Whedon's excellent _Buffy_ show as well as HBO's _True Blood_ and a vast chunk of Hammer's back catalogue. I'm not sure if it is your intention, but you seem to suggest that you have distanced yourself almost wholly from popular culture based on a distaste for several aspects of it. Wouldn't this deny you the tools to understand and analyse the culture that's causing you such distress? That strikes me as a very risky response. How would you accurately recognise the decency you crave in popular literature if you shun popular literature? Or have I missed the point?

EDIT: By the time I wrote this reply, Kyle had written and posted his. I wish I'd said some of that. Your citing of Taps is puzzling. You're comparing two works with very different audiences.


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## The Tourist (Oct 16, 2013)

No, Fred, you understood my point perfectly.  With one proviso.

We might be concentrating on a bad *book/movie* more than we are looking at the *bad* book/movie.  The work just isn't very good.  There are  lots of good vampire tales.

In your post, you mentioned Buffy.  I'd rather watch that movie.  It had a plot, it touched new ground, and more importantly I didn't have to watch Kristen Stewart try and act her way out of a wet paper bag.

I'm sure there's a story in there, it's just that I do not have the resources to rent landmine detectors and a demolition crew to find it.  Vampires or not, it just wasn't very good.


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## Jeko (Oct 16, 2013)

> In the case of Twilight, not much. In hindsight I thought there was more drama and intrigue in the personal lives of the young actors who played the roles than in the characters they portrayed. In fact, this is a case of where "the making of the movie" would have been more interesting to watch than the entire storyline--books and movies combined.



Kyle asks you the perfect question and you still can't look beyond the surface and everything around it and 'society' to appreciate or criticize the work itself?

I'm starting to think you don't actually read books, The Tourist. You don't talk about them at all.


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## SarahStrange (Oct 16, 2013)

The Tourist, when I read the majority of your threads and posts I am reminded of one of those old, tired professors that talks a lot and at great length, provides lots of unrelated examples to 'back themselves up' and ignores others' opinions. In the end they don't actually _say anything. _

But here's the thing: sometimes I think you might have a point (rarely, but ya know... sometimes). It just can't be reached through all the debris that surrounds it. Interestingly enough, I almost value posts like yours above others, because it is a glimpse of the personalities I will have to combat if I wish to become a successful author. Almost. And I'll be honest, I want to be successful. I _want _to make money doing what I love: writing. What's wrong with that? Nothing. The common proverb is that money does not buy happiness. Well, as anyone who has lived without can tell you, it sure as heck helps. Happiness is very hard to reach when you are living without heat in the winter for months at a time and not eating multiple meals because you just don't have the money. As long as I make a living in a way that I see as honorable, there's nothing bad about it. 

On your point of what I guess you would call 'drek': I think that something should said about the ideals that popular fiction gets across. Yes, I am writing a 'mainstream' YA novel, but the morals/themes that it carries with its plot are not to be undervalued. It just seems logical to me that if you want to get an idea across, you would attach it to a vehicle that will get the most use. In this case it is YA. But then again, this just my opinion.


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## Jamie (Oct 16, 2013)

It's got to the point now where I'm actually checking this thread just to see how ridiculous it can get, while humming Jona Lewie to myself.


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## The Tourist (Oct 16, 2013)

Jamie said:


> It's got to the point now where I'm actually checking this thread just to see how ridiculous it can get, while humming Jona Lewie to myself.



I'm doing the same thing.  I read a lot of belly-aching, but so far no one has provided a scintilla of a viable opposing viewpoint.  But then, the new way to debate is to just parse your debater's position, not add anything to the discussion.

So far, I'm disappointed in the supposed rebuttals.  This is supposed to be a creative writing forum.  If you can't think up a decent counterpoint...

Now I have to do research for my detractors.

http://www.ehow.com/how_5117833_write-rebuttal-speech.html


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## Gumby (Oct 16, 2013)

Admin Note:

Just a friendly reminder to everybody, the Debate Forum no longer exists here on WF. This is the _Writing Discussion Forum._ Please keep that in mind. 

Thank you,
Gumby


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## Morkonan (Oct 17, 2013)

The Tourist said:


> ..So far, I'm disappointed in the supposed rebuttals.  This is supposed to be a creative writing forum..



I'm trying to decipher what it is that is here to rebut. You aren't the first that has lamented "popular culture," you know. Bajillions of people who have lived long enough to grow out of their own _Ages of the Rights of Passage of Man_ have, in turn, cast aspersions on the ones that have followed. If it wasn't so subjective, it could be argued. But, as it is, just an opinion that someone "dislikes" something isn't strong enough to rebut.

Yes, certain books, movies, art and the whole-shebang seem hollow, lacking in substance and don't appear to appreciate subtlety, skill, insight or forethought by the creator. But, nostalgia is a horrible critic and is never a good predictor of what a "new age" of human beings appear to appreciate. Just take it to heart that a great many young people and young adults do appreciate some of the things of the past and can see true value in them. That's also true of any Age.


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