# Spinning Thoughts Surrounding Death [possible trigger warning]



## JP-Clyde (Jan 22, 2016)

Let's try this again. I wrote this thread on another website and it became Exactly as I predicted it would go. What this thread Is Not, is a place to dismiss people or discredit their point of views. What this thread Is Not, is a debbie downer thread to talk about my problems. What this thread Is, is a serious destruction of ideas and thoughts. What this thread Is, a serious conversation about this topic. That's my warning. Hopefully that makes things clearer.

Suicide is such a strange topic, imo. Most people avoid speaking about it because it will trigger other people. 

And otherwise, suicide is a taboo topic to speak about, unless we're being funny.

"I am so hungry I am going to kill myself"

"I am sooo bored I am going to jump out the window"

We know they are being funny and not very serious. But when someone wants to have a serious discussion about it, they are dismissed. 

"Think about how selfish you'd be if you died"

"There are so many people who love you"

"If you talk about suicide I am going to call the police and they are going to send you away"

That's great and all, but it doesn't solve any of the problems. And it doesn't change the years of pain, that have been rubbing away slowly. To say I feel suicidal in a serious way. Is completely ignored and I feel like this thread is probably going to get deleted.

Because killing yourself is a serious taboo.

But I feel like my emotions. The pain I feel. Is dismissed. With platitudes and pats on the back.

"It will get better"

"This happens to everyone your age"

That's great, but it still dismisses how I feel. What if, and I am taking an extreme example here, someone in your family died and I gave you a Happy Face on a piece of paper and said, "don't worry everyone dies"

It doesn't solve the problems.

It doesn't solve how broken and how painful this system can be.

So, *why can we as humans being, cannot speak about suicide in a serious way? Without blaming the person thinking of death, pain, and is clearly depressed. Why can we not have serious discussions about emotional pain?*[bolded the questions clearly ignored on another site, and instead went on to do the very think I just asked why we couldn't talk about it serious;y]

My thoughts, as I was exploring this idea, I wrote this on it



> I have come to the realization that a lot of people simply do not know how to give advice. They give advice that tries to fix a problem. And normally that problem almost always consistently lies within the individual. As people, are we unable to accept people's problems as just outside of their own psyche?
> 
> Why do we tie people's problems with who they are? As if that is what defines them. Or that is their identity. People are horrendous at this kind of separation, to pull the problem from the person.
> 
> ...


----------



## bazz cargo (Jan 22, 2016)

Hamlet's soliloquy. 

When enough is enough and there appears no other way out. Yet time and distance can make a big difference.

It is odd that the human race has this built in. The only other species I can think of is cetaceans, who beach themselves.


----------



## JP-Clyde (Jan 22, 2016)

That doesn't answer the question of the thread at all


----------



## Plasticweld (Jan 22, 2016)

As someone who does Christian counseling I have dealt with people that are suicidal.  It is by far one of the most draining of all types of counseling for me because I feel so out of place offering advice. I use scripture which gives me a guide line, I use examples of dealing with some of the solutions to the individuals type of worries that they have.  

I have found that I am probably the least qualified to offer advice.  This is based on my personality not my faith which in the end seems to have a great deal of how I am viewed as a person and a key component to my personality after some get to know me.

It is hard for me to put myself in their shoes.  I am confident, I am flustered by nothing, sure of my faith, sure of my wife, my marriage and my friends.  I am happy all of the time and have been successful in business.  The very things that most are struggling with I don't have to deal with. 

It is my guess that most want someone who has these things to be able to give them the secret to why they don't and what does it take to get them.  For me it goes back to my Christian faith, which is often the answer they do not want to hear. 

I have found this, while I can often share answers to questions, seldom do I deal with people that really want to hear an answer.  They are looking for someone to tell them that the reasons they have are legitimate for the feelings that they have. 


I do know that faith is not the answer for some... for some it is. 
I do know that drugs are not the answer... for some it is. 

Depression has deep roots, from my personal experience it comes from viewing life in a very selfish way, each thing that happens to them is one more stick that is added to the camels back.  What most fail to understand is that while we all face a life times worth of problems, it is the act of doing for others that removes one of those sticks from your back, and lessens the load. 


I do know that  letting someone know that I truly care, makes a difference.  It does make a difference that there is a God that cares.  

I do know I am no more qualified to help today than I was years ago, there are no fit all answers.


----------



## Cran (Jan 22, 2016)

JP-Clyde said:


> That doesn't answer the question of the thread at all


So what? The question - which you (and many others, by the way) have spent considerable time and energy on, and have either found an answer which makes the question rhetorical, or have not which makes it something other than simple - is only one part of the thread, which is not a question but:


> What this thread Is, is a serious destruction of ideas and thoughts.  What this thread Is, a serious conversation about this topic.


*Now, make up your mind*: do you want to have a serious discussion about suicide and the points - including the question - you've raised? 
Or do you want to start off by doing what you specifically stated you didn't want - 





> What this thread Is Not, is a place to dismiss people or discredit their point of views.


I don't care which way you care to go with this, but you might.


----------



## JP-Clyde (Jan 22, 2016)

I am sorry it was not my intention to seem dismissive. It just didn't seem like the response provided much to thread was all. I know why people commit suicide. I know the reasons why I have wanted to committed suicide. This thread isn't about why people commit suicide.

It's actually about the reverse, why people don't take depression and suicide seriously.

An error in communication I suppose


----------



## Schrody (Jan 23, 2016)

When my grandmother died, my mother said something like:"Everybody dies", and I was like I know, but it still doesn't make me feel better, if anything, it made things worse. I know she didn't mean anything wrong by that, just as people when saying you're selfish, or that they'll have you committed if you try to kill yourself. They don't know (or don't want to) any better. Why? Because, as you said, suicide is a taboo. It's a big no-no, and if you fail in the attempt, you're marked for life. You'll be wearing an invisible scarlet letter on your chest, and everywhere you go, that question will come up in the conversation. They won't let you forget, to leave it behind and start living a so called normal life. Mind you, I've never attempted suicide, and it was never in my thought - but I know people. They are vultures and will smell the "weak" ones. 

No, suicide is not easy for anyone. "Suicider" is suffering, and doesn't see any other way. Family and friends are suffering too. Everyone is responsible for his own life. Nobody asked to be born, our life belongs only to us, and we have the right to do with it as we please. If someone dear to me tried a suicide, I would try to stop him/her. Yes, I am a hypocrite because of that, but ask yourself one question - would you let your loved one die?

That's why people urge to think of your loved ones; they're hurting too. And as selfish as it may seem - to take a one's chance of breaking any connections with this life - that selfishness got us where we are now, that selfishness is keeping us together. Humans are pack animals, we need each other.


----------



## Cran (Jan 23, 2016)

JP-Clyde said:


> This thread isn't about why people commit suicide.


Perhaps not, but it is tied into the discussion, and as long as it is difficult to talk about it should be.




> It's actually about the reverse, why people don't take depression and suicide seriously.


Ah, that's a much more complex question - two questions, really - with a whole range of responses depending on personal and empirical experience as well as on a person's emotional and environmental state at the time of asking.

_Why don't people take depression and suicide seriously? _
Well, many do; they might not have answers or solutions, but they take it very seriously. I can't speak for other countries, but in Oz, the government got behind a national awareness campaign to bring these discussions into the open, to break down the stigma, and to try to find ways to stop the alarmingly high rates of suicide among young people and people in socially and economically depressed regions of the country, as well as the recognition that one's social or economic standing is not always the determining factor. 

The change in attitude here is, like so many social changes, generational. We are as a society moving away from the old dismissive culture that pins blame on the victim, that treats depression as a temporary and self-help issue, that waves off suicide as the coward's way out. We still fall into the trap that the right meds will sort it out, with or without efforts to alter lifestyle, that solutions exist and we just need to use them.

_OK, what about those who don't? _
For some, just like any terrible happening, it's a coping mechanism; if I make light of it, it can't hurt me, and people won't see that I suffer. For some, it is dismissive, it's an invisible sickness so it's not real, most likely just a cry for attention because they can't cope or are not living up to expectations.
_
Do I take depression and suicide seriously?_
Yes. And no. To both.


----------



## JP-Clyde (Jan 23, 2016)

Well Cran, I am going to post an experience of my own recently. 

Because of my difficulties and my social limitations, I have been unable to keep a stable living situation. I have lived in 8 different houses, and had 9 different jobs between the years of 2013-2016. Last year, I had a moment of suicidal tendency. Because my 9th job was putting a lot of pressure on me emotionally. 

It's hard for me to communicate what I experience. Too most people I seem like an intelligent, educated guy who could get around. For me, the outside world is like a big giant battery, that attaches these charges on me and drains me of energy. And we're not just talking I feel tired. No it leaves me emotionally drain. It leaves me physically drain. Mentally drain. And it just stacks. I was experiencing workplace bullying and harassment. A pace I couldn't keep up at. And was constantly put down and belittled in order to motivate me to go faster and work better.

Trust me that doesn't do what it's suppose to do. Instead it ramps up my anxiety. My anxiety ramps up my depression. My depression ramps up more anxiety. And I had a lot of workplace anxiety every time I had to go into work. I was emotionally exhausted and spent, I had nothing else to give.

So I ended up spiraling into depression and suicidal ideation. However, I am usually the type of person who can work out on his own what is wrong and find a solution. I just happened to tell a source I thought was a friend about my problems just to talk.

I was threatened by them to call the police on me. And that they take me away and put me where I couldn't be a harm to anyone. 

I find that kind of behavior more dismissive than helpful. Because it doesn't fix my situation. Okay send me to the coocoo ward, great, but when I get released from the coocoo ward my situation still won't have changed. Sending me away is just as a Temporary Fix to a Permanent Solution, as Suicide is.

I wasn't taken seriously. I was given something that they believe would help, but it wouldn't. It would still keep me as under employed, unstable living and home arrangements. My emotional problems at the time stemmed from the new move, stemmed from the new stressful workplace, and the lack of funds. 

If someone addressed those problems with me. Than that would have been fine.

You cannot just help on an emotional level. You actually have to help by finding the root of the problem.

I have suffered Cran from a 10 year pain. A 10 year pain I cannot always shake when the consistent wound keeps opening up. I fixed the problem once with poor self destructive behaviors.

Now I write, and I find the solutions in my writing. Turning away from asking people for help. Because they give usefully useless advice. Because they want to tell a story about them, that doesn't always pertain to my situation. As if it's just that easy. As if I can flip a switch.

I think this is where the fail comes in People Who Have Suicidal Ideation, do not ask for help, because they are consistently dismissed and not dismissed in a traditional sense either. Those who do change their lives around are either extremely lucky, many of them survive their own suicidal attempts and they see the error in their ways. But those who don't probably turned away people because we cannot sit down and have a conversation more like this and I am using the previous example above just to make it easier on me;

"You just started a new job and moved into a place,"

"Yes,"

"That must be hard?"

"It has been"

I mean clearly not like that. Yet, I am sending you away to fix you is very dismissive. 

But I get why Suiciders turn down help. Because the solutions we offer, are either Platitudes of Emotionally "Acceptance" by how The Non Suicidee claims a story about how they turned around their life like magic. Or are dismissed by being sent away to get rid of the problem.


----------



## Cran (Jan 23, 2016)

Yep. Lots of stuff in that. Where to start?

Getting shunted around from place to place, job to job, with nothing solid to hang on to, no routine to rely on, can work for some but more often means insecurity and body blows to self-esteem or even any sense of self. Not to mention the cost. Demoralising. 

Being bullied or put down at work, whether or not it's that well-intentioned tough love pushing to get the best out of someone, is a crime in my country, and deserves to be. It's almost always an abusive power trip. Demeaning.

That whole traditional helpless fear and loathing made Big Brother law call the cops and lock 'em up to save them from themselves and trial a few drugs and dig into the psyche to find out if daddy did the dirty and deserted or the puppy for Christmas never arrived or some other deeply buried excuse to explain why anyone would possibly want to get off this wonderful merry go round? Yeah, that sucks. Instead of helping, it just makes for fewer people to trust when the need to open up and talk is on. It would be depressing if depression weren't already a part of the why.

Pain. Yep. Underneath any other circumstances, pain of some sort is the real cause. When the pain of living is more than the pain of leaving, that's when everybody loses it. That's when a person's right to self-determination is denied for the greater good, given over to some higher power. 

Solutions? Not many and not really. For centuries, the broader solutions were charity and put the uglies somewhere out of sight. Thankfully, most of us have moved past that, and are willing to accept, even embrace, all forms of diversity. That's a start. 

Yes, the discussion is due. And yes, for anything to work it has to address the causes not just the symptoms.


----------



## JP-Clyde (Jan 23, 2016)

Well I have always said, people are very good at fixing the blame, but not the problem.


----------



## escorial (Jan 23, 2016)

JP...i think mental health in the uk is lost and has never been able to cope with one of the biggest killers in the country..why because it's regarded as self-inflicted for the vast majority of the cases and there is little understanding or a will to grasp the situation as it rolls on every year with more deaths..families don't understand depression,people are scared of depressed people...everyone fights depression..some give in others keep fighting alone,alienated and eventually helping themselves to cope....when death is the only option they will do it and i believe that some people are just not right for this world once they abandon all hope...it will always be around us and the will to live is just as strong as the will to die just that many more choose to live.


----------



## JP-Clyde (Jan 23, 2016)

escorial said:


> JP...i think mental health in the uk is lost and has never been able to cope with one of the biggest killers in the country..why because it's regarded as self-inflicted for the vast majority of the cases and there is little understanding or a will to grasp the situation as it rolls on every year with more deaths..families don't understand depression,people are scared of depressed people...everyone fights depression..some give in others keep fighting alone,alienated and eventually helping themselves to cope....when death is the only option they will do it and i believe that some people are just not right for this world once they abandon all hope...it will always be around us and the will to live is just as strong as the will to die just that many more choose to live.



I mention this in another blog. It's not always just because someone wants to give up hope.

Society tells me because I am poor and limited, that I am lazy and wanted this to happen.

Programs want me to go through hoops and perform tricks, just to receive the basic benefits. And basic rights to even live. 

And, I am not allowed to lose hope? Is what you're trying to say?

I wrote this in the quotes thread, but I like to say

Hope and Tragedy are the same beast. When you have tragedy, you go down a tunnel looking for a light, that light is hope. And when you have hope guiding you, there is darkness in the distance that always makes you worried. That's tragedy.

But, what if you already have hope?

What if you already have that light?

And some point doesn't a light go out? Torches blow out, candles blow out, flashlights batteries dies. Not one light source stays alive. And when an individual is consistently met not with batteries, but obstacles and the darkness becomes a reality.

How can they be blamed for losing hope?


----------



## Gofa (Jan 23, 2016)

One very real distinction here is physiology versus pschology

a positive mental attitude will never over come a chemical imbalance in our nervous system the same way thinking will never alter an intoxicated persons drunkiness

so peas and carrots  need to be separated

so if its chemically driven you need a chemical solution

if its pschology etc reframing your version of the past might change how you live

best not confuse

that said its never just one side of this coin its a mixture 

that said again there are terms upon which i would stop living by my own hand and call it common sense and constructive. Terminal in hospice unending pain. Ask to sit in the balcony to watch the setting sun oh hell yes one way trip that day.

talking about the quality of advice. Reading above what you have received is pretty good  

as for me.  Paint me strange on Tuesdays

i have severe food allergies   Certain foods when i was more accute than I am now would make me suicidal 

duration about 3 plus hours 

on set 30 minutes

giggle if you want but this sucker was real and watching the transition was very weird on a good day 

my mind would produce whatever justification required to balance the driven emotions generated from the chemicals chasing around within me.  Very scary   Like being pumped up on LSD welcome to a new reality seemlessly transferred to. 

JP no amount of thinking or writing will fix this.  You do something 

as to the buts.  Not my point nor worthy of discussion.  No situational ethics here.  You do something 

when the mind is broken its a bit stupid to think its going to fix itself. Why cause its broke

you take it to another level. You do stuff.  Mostly stuff told to you by others but you do stuff 

in addiction circles it called doing the work.

there are no cheap answers nor quick fixes this far down the your rabbit hole JP

honest advice 

heart felt. 

Find God or stand still long enough to notice He has found you. 

Then work with others and do stuff as in hard physical work 

From the everyone gets a turn point here ends my discussion


----------



## JP-Clyde (Jan 23, 2016)

I like how you assume that I have done nothing to fix my current situation. *slow claps* I hate when people do that crap, where they make the assumption I am not putting the effort and work into. Instead of asking me what I have done to fix my situation. You assumed I have done nothing. Fantastic.


----------



## Gofa (Jan 24, 2016)

No assumptions on my part   

This I thought was a discussion with a frame established above about the topic itself principles etc not an exercise based upon you yourself. 

Talking about suicide in a serious way as was defined in black above 

as to your slow claps reply I recognise that as a dismissal so consider myself as such 

my error

 Bye


----------



## JP-Clyde (Jan 24, 2016)

Gofa said:


> No assumptions on my part
> 
> This I thought was a discussion with a frame established above about the topic itself principles etc not an exercise based upon you yourself.
> 
> ...



Is this not exactly what I just said it was



> JP no amount of thinking or writing will fix this. You do something
> 
> as to the buts. Not my point nor worthy of discussion. No situational ethics here. You do something
> 
> ...


----------



## Deleted member 56686 (Jan 24, 2016)

Hi.

I didn't really want to post in here because frankly, I didn't know what I could say that would make you feel better, JP, and the truth is no one can really say something to make a depressed person feel better, especially when it's addressing the depression itself and not reasons why you are depressed.

And the thing is, we really have no way of knowing what makes you depressed any more than someone would know exactly what makes me depressed.

And I guess that's another point I want to make. I've been a member of the forum for about a year and a half now, and every time I see a thread like this, invariably the same people post on them, including myself. Now why is that? Maybe it's because in some way, we suffer from depression too? The answer to that, in part, would be yes.

I'm not going to speak for everyone on this thread since there are only two names here I always expect to see, but I guess while we can't drum up a magical cure for what makes you sad, at least I can tell you you're not alone, JP. Look around the forum and if you look deep enough, you'll find a slew of threads and blogs centered around depression. In fact there's a blog presently about it now going. My one and only blog from over a year ago also tackles the subject.

So don't be afraid to talk about it. You'll find out you have a lot of friends here who will listen.


----------



## escorial (Jan 24, 2016)

JP...sometimes you just got to face up to the fact that your life is on this journey only you can take and that you are alive but capable of ending it if you wish..for me life is about mind games that some i win and some i lose..hope comes and goes just like tragedy and comedy in life...and so my life goes on


----------



## Schrody (Jan 24, 2016)

JP-Clyde said:


> I mention this in another blog. It's not always just because someone wants to give up hope.
> 
> Society tells me because I am poor and limited, that I am lazy and wanted this to happen.
> 
> Programs want me to go through hoops and perform tricks, just to receive the basic benefits. And basic rights to even live.



That's the mentality we got to change. We need to remove the stigma of depression, and mental illness. Society is slowly comprehending the seriousness of depression and it's battling it the best way it can and know. I agree there's a lack of the human approach in the psychology, but hey - you could have it worse - when you read what they did earlier, at the beginning of the 20th century, you might feel lucky enough. (Hey, a joke never killed anyone. No pun intended.) 



mrmustard615 said:


> Hi.
> 
> I didn't really want to post in here because frankly, I didn't know what  I could say that would make you feel better, JP, and the truth is no  one can really say something to make a depressed person feel better,  especially when it's addressing the depression itself and not reasons  why you are depressed.
> 
> ...



Well, I don't like to call my (previous) state a depression, because I feel that it decreases the seriousness of depression. Depression is a severe state, it can last for a couple of years or a whole life, and is usually a consequence of the chemical imbalance and the life itself. Me (few years ago), it was serious to a point, but I always knew it won't last for long. I had no job, no love, no perspective for a better life. I often didn't want to get up from the bed as I didn't see any reason to. I didn't go out, spending my time at the computer, all day, every day. At no point I thought of a suicide, but I was sick of all of it. It lasted for a week, two, who knows? How did I get out of it? I was being me. I knew I had to do something, so slowly I started to sleep less, spending less time at the computer, and going out more, hanging out with people (and I knew it wasn't a depression because depressed people can't just jump out of their state. They need someone who'll listen, who'll understand and who will help.) I can be very blue, almost depressed, and I can be the happiest person in the world. And I basically am happy. Maybe there's a chemical imbalance in my brain too, I don't know. From my humble experience I somewhat understand depressed people, and I know it's not easy, but it's important to stand up and flip a finger to life, no matter how many times it knocked us down, lying at the bottom.


----------



## Sam (Jan 24, 2016)

You know why suicide is not taken seriously? 

It's very simple: because the overwhelming majority of suicides are committed by men -- and society in general doesn't give a fuck what happens to men. 

I watched as four of my cousins were buried in the last two years, all male and all suicides, and no one but me had the stones to speak out. Everyone was talking crap about, "He was so selfish! How could he do that to this mother and father?" 

Here's a better question: how did society fail those kids so much that they had nowhere to turn to for help?


----------



## Schrody (Jan 24, 2016)

Sam said:


> You know why suicide is not taken seriously?
> 
> It's very simple: because the overwhelming majority of suicides are committed by men -- and society in general doesn't give a fuck what happens to men.
> 
> ...



See, that's why I don't like feminists - we turned into a society where only female life is important, and men became expendable merchandise. I may sound harsh, but it's the truth. I'm not planning on turning this into a thread about equal rights, but darn, we have to do something. I'm sick and tired of seeing how society behaves on certain categories - in this case men. I'm sorry about your cousins, but nothing will change until we change ourselves and our attitudes. If you opened a "safe house" for abused men in my country they would all laugh. That's the reflection of our sick society. It's not sick because of all the needy, it's sick because we fail to recognize it, and basically, don't care. Suicide is taken pretty seriously - the prevention of it, not so much.


----------



## PiP (Jan 24, 2016)

Sam said:


> Here's a better question: how did society fail those kids so much that they had nowhere to turn to for help?



It is a better question, Sam. Perhaps society and ultimately parents put too much pressure on their kids now. Maybe male suicides have always been higher and it is nothing new - I don't know. People have a strange attitude to suicide - life is precious - and lashing out against those who have taken their own life is their way of dealing with their anger rather than trying to understand the cause. When a friend of mine committed suicide my only question was: Why - you had everything to live for?  

I don't know...

All I do know is that I came very close to the edge myself when I was a teenager and there is a fine line between desperation, planning and action.

I'm not sure I agree with your comment.



> and society in general doesn't give a fuck what happens to men.


Unless as a society we are broken and anesthetized due to Media exposure to human suffering and death in general. When I lived in the UK I had planned to apply to join the Samaritans and train to be a Help Line counselor when I retired. There are places people can seek help but they are too embarrassed to take the first step.


----------



## Sam (Jan 24, 2016)

PiP said:


> It is a better question, Sam. Perhaps society and ultimately parents put too much pressure on their kids now. Maybe male suicides have always been higher and it is nothing new - I don't know. People have a strange attitude to suicide - life is precious - and lashing out against those who have taken their own life is their way of dealing with their anger rather than trying to understand the cause. When a friend of mine committed suicide my only question was: Why - you had everything to live for?
> 
> I don't know...
> 
> ...



At the risk of turning this into a debate, just take a look at how men (young men in particular) are demonised in the media and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about vis-a-vis society.


----------



## PiP (Jan 24, 2016)

Sam said:


> At the risk of turning this into a debate, just take a look at how men (young men in particular) are demonised in the media and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about vis-a-vis society.




Agree... Unfortunately, it is a sad reflection of our shallow society.

ETA: Does the OP feel there is more peer pressure on men than women?


----------



## dither (Jan 24, 2016)

escorial said:


> JP...sometimes you just got to face up to the fact that your life is on this journey only you can take and that you are alive but capable of ending it if you wish..for me life is about mind games that some i win and some i lose..hope comes and goes just like tragedy and comedy in life...and so my life goes on



So few words Escorial, and yet you say so much.


----------



## JP-Clyde (Jan 24, 2016)

PiP said:


> Agree... Unfortunately, it is a sad reflection of our shallow society.
> 
> ETA: Does the OP feel there is more peer pressure on men than women?



I do actually believe especially considering there were two cases recently that prove this to me.

There was a case about a 27 year old woman, who raped a 15 year old boy and provided him beer. She didn't get nearly as much jail time, as she should have. But if the opposite had been reversed and it was a 15 year old girl, the man would have faced a life sentence. I am not trying to argue legal here. But I was outraged and horrified of the comments. "oh he felt violated he should have liked it" "that boy didn't know he was just lucky" "that would have been my luckiest day" I mean that is seriously disgusting

Another case, was of a Youtuber, who claims to have been abused by his ex. I actually believe the man because I know him personally. Point being though, everyone told him to quit crying and man up. If a woman ever slapped them around they would slap her right back. Etc. Etc. 

Somehow in this society men don't have emotions, they cannot be raped, or abused. We live invisible lives because we're shamed into believing our lives and emotions don't matter.


----------



## Joe_Bassett (Jan 24, 2016)

Are you talking about Matthew Santoro when you mention the YouTuber?  I've heard a lot about that case.


----------



## JP-Clyde (Jan 24, 2016)

GuitarHiro97 said:


> Are you talking about Matthew Santoro when you mention the YouTuber?  I've heard a lot about that case.



I was speaking about that, yes.

I mean it's pretty clear, in my eyes Nicole Arbor is a manipulative liar. But I don't want to debate about it. I just find it unfair that Mathew was so heavily criticized for being a bitch, sorry it was necessary in this context. That he was crying like a sissy, etc.


----------



## Joe_Bassett (Jan 24, 2016)

It definitely was not a good situation for him.  I'm glad that he's trying to move on. I've watched his videos for a long time and I'm very inclined to believe his side of the story.  Not to mention the fact that several other people backed him up on the story.


----------



## JP-Clyde (Jan 24, 2016)

GuitarHiro97 said:


> It definitely was not a good situation for him.  I'm glad that he's trying to move on. I've watched his videos for a long time and I'm very inclined to believe his side of the story.  Not to mention the fact that several other people backed him up on the story.



I back it up as well. I might not be a big Youtube Personality. But was in contact with Mathew via email and some Youtube cons before. He's a real nice guy and I have never known him to make up such serious allegations. I am glad he's piecing his life back together now.


----------



## Cran (Jan 24, 2016)

PiP said:


> Perhaps society and ultimately parents put too much pressure on their kids now.


Not so much; it varies across societies and from generation to generation. In many places, society and parents don't know what to expect for their kids. The nature of employment has changed, entire industries have closed down or moved out, and opportunities once taken for granted no longer exist. No one knows this more than those who write for a living.



> Maybe male suicides have always been higher and it is nothing new - I don't know.


The numbers seem to support this, but the numbers also encourage generalisations.

Males do tend to higher suicide rates and higher rates of so-called risky behaviours leading to death. Females tend to higher rates of non-fatal self-harm. Peer pressure, societal (including ethnic and regional) and self-expectations all play a role. 

Yes, there is a difference in response to rape of males by females compared to rape by males, mostly because of the far greater occurrence of the latter but also because the latter more often includes high levels of physical violence. Despite this, the law does treat these offenses equally; the comment about men jailed for life for one count of rape just doesn't happen anywhere, no matter how much one might wish it so. The average time served was five years, but has reduced to four years in recent times. Sentences range from six to eight years per count. 

In Oz, on average two women every week are murdered by their partner or ex-partner, but it took years of research, and a spate of high profile murders, to discover this because the vast majority of cases were not reported in the media. So-called domestic violence is now a front page issue.


----------



## dither (Jan 24, 2016)

Two women, every week.
That's one helluva statistic.


----------



## Sam (Jan 24, 2016)

Cran said:


> Not so much; it varies across societies and from generation to generation. In many places, society and parents don't know what to expect for their kids. The nature of employment has changed, entire industries have closed down or moved out, and opportunities once taken for granted no longer exist. No one knows this more than those who write for a living.
> 
> 
> The numbers seem to support this, but the numbers also encourage generalisations.
> ...



Rape may not be a life sentence, but if you look at the statistics for crimes you'll find that, on average, women serve less than half as many years as men do for the exact same crime. Like your statistics, Cran, this is not widely reported in the media because it doesn't support the narrative. 

Men also made up 68% of all homicides last year. 

That isn't reported on the news either, nor is the fact that in the UK suicide is the leading cause of death in young men between the ages of 16 and 35. 

This isn't about bashing either of the sexes, but I can guarantee you if it were young women between the ages of 16 and 35 killing themselves, it would get significantly more airtime. 

Rather, this is to educate people who are of the belief that it's just a cultural thing. No, if this isn't tackled at the root of the problem, and if men don't find the help they need, suicide will become less epidemic and more pandemic.


----------



## patskywriter (Jan 25, 2016)

You said that most people refuse to discuss suicide. Obviously, I don’t know who you hang out with, but I don’t remember suicide ever being a taboo topic. When suicide is mentioned (not often, but still), it’s taken seriously and discussed at length. I don’t get the impression that you want advice, so I won’t give it; I’m not qualified anyway.

I can’t imagine why you say that calling the police/ambulance is dismissive, when that’s exactly what I would expect of someone who cares what might happen if they didn’t act. In my opinion, being dismissive is saying something like, “Man up” or “Get it together.” And then walking away.

You seem to be in a bad place. Your <slow clapping> and sarcastic remarks probably come from pain, but I don’t know you, so I’m just taking an educated guess. One thing I can say is that when you push people away, you can’t expect them to reach out and draw you close … so all you’re probably going to get are “platitudes and pats on the back” for now. Many people back off when they’re in the presence of a seriously depressed person. Don’t blame them for not knowing what to do. It would be nice if we all had training in this area, but that’s what professionals are for—and family. If your family doesn’t stand with you, that’s sad, but I can’t do anything about that. 

I’m a person (last time I checked), but I’m always willing to talk about such topics as suicide. I feel that life is precious to those who value it, but we all have different opinions. It you actually want to pursue this topic, continue to post and we’ll see where it leads.


----------



## JP-Clyde (Jan 25, 2016)

patskywriter said:


> I can’t imagine why you say that calling the police/ambulance is dismissive, when that’s exactly what I would expect of someone who cares what might happen if they didn’t act. In my opinion, being dismissive is saying something like, “Man up” or “Get it together.” And then walking away.



As I said earlier this is a temporary fix, just as suicide is. Even if they sent me away, I come out of the ward, once again, still underemployed, no financial stability, and now in debt to a medical bill that I won't be able to pay off. Putting me once again in a financial hole. It just makes more money owed. How do you figure that is helping?



> You seem to be in a bad place. Your <slow clapping> and sarcastic remarks probably come from pain, but I don’t know you, so I’m just taking an educated guess. One thing I can say is that when you push people away, you can’t expect them to reach out and draw you close … so all you’re probably going to get are “platitudes and pats on the back” for now. Many people back off when they’re in the presence of a seriously depressed person. Don’t blame them for not knowing what to do. It would be nice if we all had training in this area, but that’s what professionals are for—and family. If your family doesn’t stand with you, that’s sad, but I can’t do anything about that.
> 
> I’m a person (last time I checked), but I’m always willing to talk about such topics as suicide. I feel that life is precious to those who value it, but we all have different opinions. It you actually want to pursue this topic, continue to post and we’ll see where it leads.



I have always used humor as a way to defend myself. It's my double edge sword, it makes me good at my job at the Haunted House as an actor. I am actually a good comedian on stage as well. But don't all comedians start from somewhere so deep and painful?

Many artist draw from something. I draw from my apathy and unhappiness with the world. But it allows me to see so much more as well. I see more than most people.

Most people will never understand what it is like to be smarter than everyone else. The guy who always has the answer, who can always see steps ahead. They blame him for being difficult or negative. Yet, he tells them so secretly in his mind when that very thing he told them would happen would happen.

I like how no one in my life takes me seriously. 

Beyond that, beyond myself.

I feel pain for everyone else as well in the same situation as me. It's weird I talk a lot about my situation, but the reality is I hurt for other people. I think to myself, I wonder who else is going through this. I wish they didn't have to.

I wonder, is there any way of fixing this?

And it's why I create these threads as I do. Because as a writer, someone, who can see everything and yet not touch the very social infrastructure everyone else seems fine with. I think my job, is to persuade and convince for change. Because I don't strive for complacency in my life. I see a problem. i want a solution. I don't want a blame, I want a solution.

I want all the people who have all the same problems I do, worse, or equal to or even lesser to have equal rights and to be looked after. I want other people to not hurt. Because that kind of hurt, is deeply poisoned, and it buries something so deep in your psyche. That it tears you apart. And I don't wish that on any soul.

I am tired of a system that is dismissive.

I am tired of complacency.

I am tired of "that's the way it is"

How about we all work together and find solutions? <----mental note, I am using we as a general statement. I mean as a whole community as a society.


----------



## Sam (Jan 25, 2016)

patskywriter said:


> You said that most people refuse to discuss suicide. Obviously, I don’t know who you hang out with, but I don’t remember suicide ever being a taboo topic. When suicide is mentioned (not often, but still), it’s taken seriously and discussed at length. I don’t get the impression that you want advice, so I won’t give it; I’m not qualified anyway.
> 
> I can’t imagine why you say that calling the police/ambulance is dismissive, when that’s exactly what I would expect of someone who cares what might happen if they didn’t act. In my opinion, being dismissive is saying something like, “Man up” or “Get it together.” And then walking away.



The police/paramedics are not extensively trained to deal with someone who is suicidal. Yeah, I know, in this day and age it's incredible that neither are trained to do anything beyond get the person to a suicide-watch cell. 

That's what JP means, I believe, when he mentions how no one talks about suicide. You have people living in bubbles who believe that "stop feeling depressed" and "if you just feel good about yourself" are valid pieces of advice to someone who is suffering from a mental condition.


----------



## dither (Jan 25, 2016)

The bottom line , i believe, is that people don't understand, don't know how to deal with it, and therefore are afraid of getting involved.


----------



## patskywriter (Jan 25, 2016)

JP-Clyde said:


> As I said earlier this is a temporary fix, just as suicide is. Even if they sent me away, I come out of the ward, once again, still underemployed, no financial stability, and now in debt to a medical bill that I won't be able to pay off. Putting me once again in a financial hole. It just makes more money owed. How do you figure that is helping?



All they're trying to do is to stop you from killing yourself. Even if it’s only to keep from feeling guilty later, in case you follow through, it’s still the “right” thing to do. No one owes you financial stability, employment, and a means to pay your bills—that's up to you. Do you really think somebody wants to take up the burden of holding you aloft while they’re trying to handle their own lives? That’s pretty presumptuous. 

[Update: Sam posted his comments before I finished writing this. Points well taken.]





JP-Clyde said:


> I see a problem. i want a solution. I don't want a blame, I want a solution.



You tell us what you want. Most of us have wants. Also, most of us stand  alone and it’s up to us to go after what we want. I don’t know what  depression feels like, thank goodness, but when you have the  “opportunity” to get some help and don’t see it as help, I don’t know  what to tell you. (I put opportunity in quotes because I think you’ll  probably disagree with that term.) 

Do you have any solutions in mind? Put your mind to work—you say that “[m]ost people will never understand what it is like to be smarter than everyone else ” … and you can feel other people’s pain. Following this logic, then you are the right man for the job to tell us what needs to be done (hopefully, more than just talk).

As Dither said, most of us don’t know what it’s like—and it’s true. That’s why someone—perhaps you—can get the ball rolling on finding real solutions. It’s not going to come from someone like me, who haven’t seen depression up close. It’s more likely to come from somebody like you. I know that telling someone the ball’s in his court is probably unfair, but I don’t ever remember life being any different.


----------



## JP-Clyde (Jan 25, 2016)

patskywriter said:


> All they're trying to do is to stop you from killing yourself. Even if it’s only to keep from feeling guilty later, in case you follow through, it’s still the “right” thing to do. No one owes you financial stability, employment, and a means to pay your bills—that's up to you. Do you really think somebody wants to take up the burden of holding you aloft while they’re trying to handle their own lives? That’s pretty presumptuous.
> 
> [Update: Sam posted his comments before I finished writing this. Points well taken.]



I absolutely disagree. Here in America it is written in our very foundation that everyone is equal and righted to the pursuit of happiness, the pursuit of equality, etc. It's not that people owe me financial stability. However! We should have solutions that help people. Not bury them further.







> You tell us what you want. Most of us have wants. Also, most of us stand  alone and it’s up to us to go after what we want. I don’t know what  depression feels like, thank goodness, but when you have the  “opportunity” to get some help and don’t see it as help, I don’t know  what to tell you. (I put opportunity in quotes because I think you’ll  probably disagree with that term.)
> 
> Do you have any solutions in mind? Put your mind to work—you say that “[m]ost people will never understand what it is like to be smarter than everyone else ” … and you can feel other people’s pain. Following this logic, then you are the right man for the job to tell us what needs to be done (hopefully, more than just talk).
> 
> As Dither said, most of us don’t know what it’s like—and it’s true. That’s why someone—perhaps you—can get the ball rolling on finding real solutions. It’s not going to come from someone like me, who haven’t seen depression up close. It’s more likely to come from somebody like you. I know that telling someone the ball’s in his court is probably unfair, but I don’t ever remember life being any different.



Actually most of us don't stand alone, it's honestly who wants to do something about it. Personally I think we need to follow suit in a lot of other programs when it comes to assistance. In Utah they have managed to clear nearly 90% of their chronically homeless, because they focus on housing first, assistance later. And that's how it should be.

I been going through so many loopholes just to have a stable living situation. And a stable financial situation.

The second thing is that I think we need to change many of our programs. Prisoners, should be given lived in correction homes, where our prisons, help people out of poverty, you know like how many other countries elsewhere do it.

You teach people nothing with isolation. You just teach them how to be more isolated.


----------



## patskywriter (Jan 25, 2016)

I’m actually glad you disagree. I’m a professional interviewer and never start out with the premise that I’m always right. Still, I get the uneasy sense that nothing has been solved. But maybe you have sparked something, which will most likely result in my examining the problem of severe depression where I live.


----------



## JP-Clyde (Jan 25, 2016)

patskywriter said:


> I’m actually glad you disagree. I’m a professional interviewer and never start out with the premise that I’m always right. Still, I get the uneasy sense that nothing has been solved. But maybe you have sparked something, which will most likely result in my examining the problem of severe depression where I live.



Even it may seem like I am a pessimist I am not. I have never once settled for complacency. I believe that we have the power. We have the power to change what we don't like. And yet, many of us sit, talk, and do nothing else. And I say we again in a general statement


----------



## patskywriter (Jan 25, 2016)

dither said:


> The bottom line, i believe, is that people don't understand, don't know how to deal with it, and therefore are afraid of getting involved.



I would think that being afraid of getting involved is more of a natural aversion than a “political” stance. Many people don’t even think of dealing with something until they find themselves face to face with it. Unless they’ve been trained to do so, I don’t think people automatically take hold of  problems and try to solve them. 

This reminds me of something I heard on National Public Radio yesterday: When drugs flooded some black communities, they were a *moral/criminal* problem. Now that people are recognizing a huge drug problem in some white communities, they’re a *health* problem and Something Must Be Done. Until they’re happening in your backyard, you don’t see problems as they are. I get that. And as a journalist I feel compelled to see how severe depression is dealt with (or not) in my city.


----------



## lvcabbie (Jan 25, 2016)

I sit upon the edge of the cliff and watch the churn of the sea on the rocks below. My soul is as dark as the sky far off over the ocean. The sad moan of the fog horn echoes the sadness in my gut.

My life is in ruins. I've just seen the woman who cannot bring herself to share sexual warmth with me in the arms of another man doing what she refused to do with me. And the man's wife told me it was a common event, made even worse by telling me she always watched and sometime participated.

What can I do?

Actually, what more do I wish not to do?

The let go and slide over the edge seems to be the perfect answer. No more anger. Or sorrow. Perhaps the sea will lift the gloom and give me happiness once again.

And then, something furry rubs against my hand and softly mews.

It is my Siamese cat there to demand my attention. She can be so haughty and disdainful of human needs. But now, she seems to be calling me back from the darkness. She makes me lift her to my chest and softly rubs her head beneath my chin.

There is lightness here above. I think perhaps there might be more ahead of me. I must but refute the bonds I think that hold me to the strumpet and go on with my life.


I rise to my feet and turn from the sound of frothing waves and climb the hillside thick with growth and softly rub the cat's head. Death has slipped his hold upon me and I will continue.

Thanks to a furry creature who shows me more love and affection than I have received in a very long time elsewhere.


----------

