# What's more important? Plot or theme?



## ironpony (Jul 23, 2020)

I try to make both the plot and theme important, but if a couple of readers say they spotted a plot hole, but in order to fix it, I would have to change elements that go against the theme I am trying to convey.

But maybe in order for a story to work, you have to pick one, and can't have your cake and eat it too, of course 




.

But which would be more important to most readers do you think, if you have to pick one above the other?


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## luckyscars (Jul 23, 2020)

You shouldn't have to change the plot to accommodate a theme. The fact it would even be an issue indicates a poor conceptual relationship between the two things. The theme should arise organically through the plot and the relationship should be one of symbiosis.


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## Kyle R (Jul 23, 2020)

Yeah, I don't really worry so much about theme.

The events of the story, the values of the protagonist, and the antagonistic forces will usually lead to a general theme, anyway. And readers tend to find their own motifs in the story—often ones that you didn't even intend to put in there.

Whenever I do try to impose a theme, it tends to make the story feel forced, artificial. But that's just me.


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## ironpony (Jul 23, 2020)

Oh okay thanks.but if you don't have anything in mind when writing it, then how do you know what the reader supposed to feel, or what message your thoughts you are trying to convey?

Like for example, I watched the movie Parasite (2019), recently and the movie has themes of rich vs. poor, and how the rich can look down upon the poor, and the movie has certain plot turns that further emphasize this theme.  The writer would not have come up with these plot points, unless he wanted this theme intentionally and it wasn't an accident.  The theme was intentional, because I don't think certain plot points could have been just a coincidence.

Also, another example is To Kill a Mockingbird, and the story has themes of racism in it, but I don't think the writer arrived at these themes by accident in the end, and it was intentional from the beginning.

Unless I'm wrong?


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## luckyscars (Jul 23, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thanks.but if you don't have anything in mind when writing it, then how do you know what the reader supposed to feel, or what message your thoughts you are trying to convey?
> 
> Like for example, I watched the movie Parasite (2019), recently and the movie has themes of rich vs. poor, and how the rich can look down upon the poor, and the movie has certain plot turns that further emphasize this theme.  The writer would not have come up with these plot points, unless he wanted this theme intentionally and it wasn't an accident.  The theme was intentional, because I don't think certain plot points could have been just a coincidence.
> 
> ...



I think you're possibly confusing 'theme' for 'inspiration'.

In the case of To Kill A Mockingbird' (I haven't seen Parasite yet, unfortunately) there's no doubt that Harper Lee set out to write about racism. But racism isn't actually the theme. 

Racism is more accurately described as the background to the story or its world-- interlinked with Harper Lee's own personal background and interests and that of the Deep South setting where she grew up, the book is almost autobiographical. 

Racism is far too broad to be a functional theme on its own in really any book. Most books that are 'about racism' are really about one or more iterations of it and how it impacts people, which is where we get into the 'themes'. 

The _themes _of To Kill A Mockingbird are more nuanced than just 'racism and how bad it is'. The real themes of TKAM come down to unfairness in the justice system, personal courage in doing what is right no matter how people react, and 'seeing how the sausage is made' in terms of how society thinks and behave. 

In really simple terms, the main theme of TKAM could be described as 'loss of innocence'. This loss of innocence comes in multiple forms. You have the children who lose their innocent belief in adult morality. You have Atticus Finch, a lawyer who loses his innocence about the systemic racism and corruption within the justice system. And you have the most obvious loss of innocence, that of Tom the black man who has been falsely accused.

I don't know to what extent Harper Lee imagined these themes before or even while she was writing the story, but I'm willing to bet she didn't go in knowing all of them upfront or how they would develop and how they would impact the reader. I'm not saying that themes need to happen accidentally or that you should necessarily be oblivious to thematic issues, but I would suggest you should not write according to prescriptive 'this is the theme and the entire story must be chained to it'. 

All stories have themes. Speaking for my own work, I usually realize fairly early on the kinds of things I think my work might be about. To what extent the narrative is then shaped by them absolutely depends, but I would never want to say 'oh they can't do this because then the theme doesn't work'. 

This is like raising a child according to how you want their legacy to be when they die someday. No right minded person does that. It's ass backwards and inevitably results in bad (and very strange!) parenting. You raise a child mainly according to the moment. Sure you can try your best to seed longer-term values into their development and you should, but you do those in the interests of the child's present and their foreseeable future, not some abstract 'this is what it will mean someday' that, ultimately, will be very difficult to control and probably lead to some bad or skewed decision making.


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## indianroads (Jul 23, 2020)

Plot is the structure that your characters and theme hang from.


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## Taylor (Jul 23, 2020)

ironpony said:


> I try to make both the plot and theme important, but if a couple of readers say they spotted a plot hole, but in order to fix it, I would have to change elements that go against the theme I am trying to convey.
> 
> But maybe in order for a story to work, you have to pick one, and can't have your cake and eat it too, of course
> 
> ...



Great idea for a discussion thread! 

 But I don't think you can use that expression.  "To have your cake and eat it too", suggests that you can only have one or the other. I think you need both a strong plot and a strong theme to make the story work. 

I think of it more like, to make a good cake, you have to use all the proper ingredients.  If you use an ingredient that doesn't work with the type of cake you are making, then you may not end up with a good cake.  Unfortunately, with cakes once they're baked, you can't go back and fix them.  That is the beauty of writing.  We can always make it work! 

As a writer, you should be able to find a way to adjust, and not pick one above the other.



luckyscars said:


> All stories have themes. Speaking for my own work, I usually realize fairly early on the kinds of things I think my work might be about. To what extent the narrative is then shaped by them absolutely depends, but I would never want to say 'oh they can't do this because then the theme doesn't work'.



Agree 100%! 

When I read a story where the characters actions and plotline are too obviously to support a theme, it's boring, and I usually put it down.  It's like a Hallmark Movie. I can tell you what the plot and theme will be before I even start to watch.  I know some people may like that, and they are certainly popular, but I prefer when the author confuses me a bit.  I think characters need to have conflict, and then change because of it.   So if they are doing something that doesn't support the theme for a period of time, that's ok, as long as it comes together in the end. 

TKAM is a perfect example, because it has many themes.  And already you see that people don't agree on the theme, which is great, that's why it still makes for good discussion.  But to me the main theme is compassion.   And I do think that Harper Lee went into it with all these themes in mind.  



indianroads said:


> Plot is the structure that your characters and theme hang from.



Perfectly said!    

Just to add my own thoughts on this, because it is something I think about a lot as I am moving towards the completion of my novel, and hoping I got it right. I went into it with a strong theme in mind.  Then I sought out a situation that I could use as a plot to hang my theme on.  I can't even imagine starting with a plot first and then developing the theme.  Does anyone do that?

I would venture to say that the theme is something that the author holds dear at an inherent level, and wants to portray.  That would be the motivation to tell the story. You can't let go of that because of your plot. But maybe that's just me...


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## ironpony (Jul 23, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> I think you're possibly confusing 'theme' for 'inspiration'.
> 
> In the case of To Kill A Mockingbird' (I haven't seen Parasite yet, unfortunately) there's no doubt that Harper Lee set out to write about racism. But racism isn't actually the theme.
> 
> ...



Oh okay, perhaps I am confusing theme with inspiration then.  But if someone says that the only way to fix a plot hole is to get rid of the inspiration for the story, because of all the changes being made, is that a good thing then, since the inspiration is then gone?


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## ironpony (Jul 23, 2020)

Biro said:


> From your other topics that you posted about, Rape drugs and Penis pumps.  Could you explain a little more as I have a feeling it isn't going to be that simple.



Oh well it's just I was told on here, as well as from a couple of other readers, that it's a plot hole in my story that the group of villains is gender mixed.  They said the way to fix the plot hole is to make them all one gender.  But I feel this makes at a 'battle of genders' type story though, with one gender against the other, and I didn't want it to have that type of theme.  Also, I didn't want female victims only, because I thought it would be I guess you could say, more fair, if that's the right word, to have victims of both genders in the crime.

So I have a plot hole, but if I fix it, then it becomes less fair on gender, and that is a theme I do not want, if that makes sense?


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## ironpony (Jul 23, 2020)

What do you mean when one scores against the other?  or do you mean when one commits rape against the other?


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## luckyscars (Jul 23, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, perhaps I am confusing theme with inspiration then.  But if someone says that the only way to fix a plot hole is to get rid of the inspiration for the story, because of all the changes being made, is that a good thing then, since the inspiration is then gone?



I can't imagine what this plot hole can be that is so vastly problematic that in order to fix it you would have to change the fundamental meaning of the story. Can you elaborate?


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## ironpony (Jul 23, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh well it's just I was told on here, as well as from a couple of other readers, that it's a plot hole in my story that the group of villains is gender mixed.  They said the way to fix the plot hole is to make them all one gender.  But I feel this makes at a 'battle of genders' type story though, with one gender against the other, and I didn't want it to have that type of theme.  Also, I didn't want female victims only, because I thought it would be I guess you could say, more fair, if that's the right word, to have victims of both genders in the crime.
> 
> So I have a plot hole, but if I fix it, then it becomes less fair on gender, and that is a theme I do not want, if that makes sense?



Oh well this was the reason as I thought by changing a plot hole I would be bringing in an unwanted theme.


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## luckyscars (Jul 23, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh well this was the reason as I thought by changing a plot hole I would be bringing in an unwanted theme.



I don't think you have a plot hole with that, I think you have a conceptual problem and a problem with character motive. Either way, yes its a problem as we discussed in another thread. 

What theme are you going for, exactly?


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## ironpony (Jul 23, 2020)

Oh well I wanted it to be a theme of both genders being victims and both genders being perpetrators.  Not exactly sure if theme is the right term but if I am going to make the villains all male, like it was suggested to fix the problem than that introduces an unwanted theme, or unwanted element, that I do not want, which makes women the victims and males the villains, thereby making it seem like it's all one gender against another and I do not want such an element, and trying to avoid that.


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## luckyscars (Jul 23, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh well I wanted it to be a theme of both genders being victims and both genders being perpetrators.  Not exactly sure if theme is the right term but if I am going to make the villains all male, like it was suggested to fix the problem than that introduces an unwanted theme, or unwanted element, that I do not want, which makes women the victims and males the villains, thereby making it seem like it's all one gender against another and I do not want such an element, and trying to avoid that.



So the theme is 'women can be rapists too'?


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## ironpony (Jul 23, 2020)

Yes that's one of the themes, or that both genders can be.


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## Taylor (Jul 23, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, perhaps I am confusing theme with inspiration then.  But if someone says that the only way to fix a plot hole is to get rid of the inspiration for the story, because of all the changes being made, is that a good thing then, since the inspiration is then gone?





ironpony said:


> Oh well it's just I was told on here, as well as from a couple of other readers, that it's a plot hole in my story that the group of villains is gender mixed.  They said the way to fix the plot hole is to make them all one gender.  But I feel this makes at a 'battle of genders' type story though, with one gender against the other, and I didn't want it to have that type of theme.  Also, I didn't want female victims only, because I thought it would be I guess you could say, more fair, if that's the right word, to have victims of both genders in the crime.
> 
> So I have a plot hole, but if I fix it, then it becomes less fair on gender, and that is a theme I do not want, if that makes sense?





ironpony said:


> Oh well I wanted it to be a theme of both genders being victims and both genders being perpetrators.  Not exactly sure if theme is the right term but if I am going to make the villains all male, like it was suggested to fix the problem than that introduces an unwanted theme, or unwanted element, that I do not want, which makes women the victims and males the villains, thereby making it seem like it's all one gender against another and I do not want such an element, and trying to avoid that.



It doesn't sound like making all one gender the villians is a very good idea at all.  There has to be another way to fix it.  What exactly is the hole?  Are you trying to find a way to differentiate the villian and victim characters?  Because that shouldn't be too difficult 

  What is the moral of your story?


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## ironpony (Jul 23, 2020)

The hole is, is that no woman would join such a group though.

I suppose the moral of the story is that revenge begets revenge and violence begets violence, but I didn't want it to turn into all one gender against the other though.


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## luckyscars (Jul 23, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Yes that's one of the themes, or that both genders can be.





ironpony said:


> The hole is, is that no woman would join such a group though.
> 
> I suppose the moral of the story is that revenge begets revenge and violence begets violence, but I didn't want it to turn into all one gender against the other though.



First of all, preface I am not an expert on anything!

This theme is weak. I think you've been told this before, but it actually accomplishes a fairly rare trifecta of being weak in its relationship to the real world (women hardly ever rape men, men frequently rape women and etc), weak in its capacity for a good story (it doesn't drive a very consistent plot -- hence you have this hole) and weak in its likely effect on an audience (I can all but promise you most audiences will not find this compelling). It short, whether or not you have a good story, the foundational premise in terms of _theme _here is weak. 

That doesn't mean the story necessarily is a problem, but the presentation is definitely out of whack with where things are these days and if it isn't even driving the plot properly then, like, what's the point? 

Why are you even pursuing this theme of 'women can rape too'? What's the idea beyond 'oh well i thought it would be interesting'. It isn't interesting (to most people) and while it may be 'original' the cost of that originality is a message that is so out of the mainstream as far as the kind of story that people want (and, I would argue, need) to hear that it is very strange to me you would be so dead-set on telling it.


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## ironpony (Jul 23, 2020)

Oh okay, I guess it's hard for me to put into words why I find the theme interesting, other than I think it's interesting.  But I guess most stories I like are not very mainstream either.  I don't think I could write a mainstream story so I figure I might as well go outside the box, and write about what I find interesting, but cannot really think of another reason as to why I wanted the story to be this way.

But if it's not a plot hole and a problem with character motive, are there any character motives that would be acceptable, since the ones I thought of so far, perhaps have not been?

When you say the story is not necessarily a problem but the presentation is out of whack, is there anything about the presentation of it that can be improved or changed, or what is the problem with the presentation exactly?


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## Taylor (Jul 24, 2020)

ironpony said:


> The hole is, is that no woman would join such a group though.
> 
> I suppose the moral of the story is that revenge begets revenge and violence begets violence, but I didn't want it to turn into all one gender against the other though.



Ok, so what you are saying is that a group of people rape because they've been raped. You find it interesting. And maybe others will as well.  And you don't want to do something mainstream.  Ok, I guess I could go along with that.    But you still have to create a compelling story. As luckyscars says "women hardley ever rape men." It's a unique story.  But find a angle that the reader can buy into.  Perhaps there is one charismatic leader of the group, who is a sadist by nature.  This person provides a great support network for all these victims.  Perhaps it's a kind of cult and they feel a part of something. And then the leader manipulates them to commit these rapes.  Something that the average mentally healthy person could understand.  Something redeeming in some way.

Stanley Cubrick's Clockwork Orange comes to mind.  I honestly hated that film and got mad at the boy who took me to see it on a date.  But I never forgot it, so I guess the author's purpose may have been accomplished.  I'm not sure it's keeping with the times of today though.

Good luck!


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## ironpony (Jul 24, 2020)

Oh okay thanks.  No, I am saying I find the villains a lot more interesting if the are not all one gender.  The group has not been raped themelves, at least that is not how I wrote it.  I wrote it so that they are committing the crimes as a form of revenge against society for constantly being sexually rejected all their lives.

However, I was told the motivation does not work and to give the villains a different motivation, especially if there is going to be a woman in the group.  So I am trying to find a different motivation, just not sure which ones would be acceptable to most readers.

But as far as making it compelling goes, I didn't think it was the execution that was so much of the problem as the villains motivation.  Unless there is something wrong with the execution as well?

One reader told me the problem with the story is that the villains are too villainous to empathize with, but I didn't intend for the reader to empathize with them at all, and I intended them to be completely abhorrent and unsympathetic.

But was this a mistake, and I should not do with that villains in fiction?  Could this be a problem in my execution?


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## Taylor (Jul 24, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thanks.  No, I am saying I find the villains a lot more interesting if the are not all one gender.  The group has not been raped themelves, at least that is not how I wrote it.  I wrote it so that they are committing the crimes as a form of revenge against society for constantly being sexually rejected all their lives.
> 
> However, I was told the motivation does not work and to give the villains a different motivation, especially if there is going to be a woman in the group.  So I am trying to find a different motivation, just not sure which ones would be acceptable to most readers.
> 
> ...




I just keep thinking about the Clockwork Orange.   The villian is a really horrible guy and then they try to rehabilitate him, and he ends up still being a really horrible guy.  I don't think you could find a more villainous character.  It was hugely popular, so maybe you could read some reviews on that movie to see what critics were saying.   

You also have this added complication of a it being out of character for a woman, and you want women in this group.  Perhaps read up on the  Karla Homolka case. She is a real life female rapist, so they do exist.  

But I think you may be struggling a bit with the moral of the story.  You say the moral is that "revenge begets revenge and violence begets violence." But that's not in keeping with your plotline.  You said that they "committed the crimes as a form of revenge against society for constantly being sexually rejected all their lives". That's not the same thing.   

It think in order to fully solve this, you have to be clear about what is the message you want to portray as a writer.


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## luckyscars (Jul 24, 2020)

Taylor said:


> You also have this added complication of a it being out of character for a woman, and you want women in this group.  Perhaps read up on the  Karla Homolka case. She is a real life female rapist, so they do exist.



Karla Homolka is an interesting case. One of my stories was loosely inspired by the case so I researched it quite a bit. While she was a rapist she was really more of an accessory. It was her husband who was the instigator and it was supposedly Homolka's obsession with pleasing her husband which motivated her to assist in finding the victims and ultimately participating in the crimes -- their first victim was her 'gift' to him. It was for that reason that she received a much more lenient sentence. 

That tends to be the contributing factor with these 'women rapists'. It's not so much that they are independently inspired to use sexual violence but that they fall under the thrall of a psychopathic male. Another prominent example is Myra Hindley. A current example is Ghislaine Maxwell. Women can do terrible things but they usually do them for entirely different reasons. 

The most fatal flaw with Ironpony's story, from what I know of it, is he massively oversimplifies a complex psychological issue: He has women raping men for reasons that are identical to men raping women. Women just aren't generally wired that way.

If Mr. Pony wants to make his female rapist more believable he may want to consider the angle of having the woman/women rapists somehow become captivated through personal association with one or more of the male rapists. I don't know how it would work with his premise of 'men who can't find girlfriends' or his overall theme, but a female character in some sort of twisted relationship with a sick-minded male character (or several of them) I suggest would be far more believable. 

Failing that, on example that comes to mind of a woman who seeks out revenge in a sexual context is Aileen Wournos (the subject of the movie _Monster_). As a prostitute, she didn't rape her victims but she did kill them while having sex with them and she was certainly a sociopath whose motivation was vengeance, hatred of men, etc. So that would probably be my best suggestion for inspiration in ironpony's current, apparently quite important (to him) parameters. I can't see Wournos joining a gang of male rapists, however. Would be totally weird, and that's the main issue here.


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## ironpony (Jul 24, 2020)

Oh okay thanks, this helps a lot.  Well I did research Karla Homolka before, and I brought it up with one reader, but the reader so far says that it's apple and oranges, since Homolka was helping out a husband, and a spouse would do a crazier thing for a husband, compared to mine, where I wasn't planning on the woman being married to any of them.

I can look up the other two real life examples though.  I don't have to have the female in the group committing the crimes for the same reasons, but in order for the plot go goes where it goes, I need the female to be in the group still.  Could she be in the group but be a part of it for different motivations then?

I don't go too far into the villain's background since they are a mystery group more so.  But is this a mistake?  There are other movies though, where you have a mystery group of villains without explaining all of their motives though, and I wanted to keep a lot of mystery.  But is this a mistake?  In other works of fiction the group of villains isn't hugely explored, as far as every member's personal motives are.



> But I think you may be struggling a bit with the moral of the story. You say the moral is that "revenge begets revenge and violence begets violence." But that's not in keeping with your plotline. You said that they "committed the crimes as a form of revenge against society for constantly being sexually rejected all their lives". That's not the same thing.



Oh sorry for not explaining more.  What I mean is that the main character, who is one of the victims of their crimes, seeks revenge on them after which begets more violence.  They are also trying to evade the police as well, which also leads to violent consequences.  So what I mean is, is that violence begets more violence onto them, as a result of their crimes.


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## luckyscars (Jul 24, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Could she be in the group but be a part of it for different motivations then?



It's probably not so much a case of whether she could be. It's probably more of a case that she needs to be. Very few people will find the idea of a woman who rapes men for revenge _and joins a gang of men to do it _compelling or credible for all the reasons that have been explained to you ad nauseum. 

Your biggest issue is that you are regarding this woman-rapist's motivations, and probably a lot of her behavior, as being fundamentally the same as your male-rapists and that just isn't how cultural, sex dynamics work. Women don't rape for the same reasons men do. Therefore, your woman character -- I would bet money on this -- has very little resemblance to a real life woman. All you've done is switch genitals. 

I've already told you that you should probably abandon this project for several reasons that, while harsh sounding, I strongly believe will ultimately be in your best interests, because I can quite easily see you aged seventy-five still trying to figure this stuff out unsuccessfully and at a certain point it's just not good for you. But, if you are going to proceed, you should try to do better with taking into account the real psychological factors that motivate things like rape and joining a gang. 

Have you even thought of why this gang exists to begin with? Do you know _why _people join gangs? Have you considered the power dynamics within the gang? Who is their leader? Why is he (or she!) their leader? Who is second in command? Who is the enforcer? What holds the group together and what could tear them apart?


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## ironpony (Jul 24, 2020)

Oh well it's just I feel it's almost finished and I think the only part that needs adjusting in her motivations, unless there is anything else that needs to be improved.

So I figure I might as well finish it now, since it feels almost done.   But what can I do to change her motivations then, if her motivations should not be the same?  As for rankings in the group, there are two rankings that are established, but do I have to establish the ranking of every member?  I mean other works of fiction do not go into the ranking of every member of a group of villains, so do I have to?  I feel that people want it to be a character study of the villains, when I don't think it's suppose to be one.  But does it have to be?

As for doing research on why women would rape men, well the problem with real life cases, is I cannot find the why.  There is a who, what, where when, etc. but they never go into the why hardly, and that is what makes it tough to research so far.


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## luckyscars (Jul 24, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh well it's just I feel it's almost finished and I think the only part that needs adjusting in her motivations, unless there is anything else that needs to be improved.



I'm pretty sure I remember you saying this exact thing before.... 

...last year.



> So I figure I might as well finish it now, since it feels almost done.   But what can I do to change her motivations then, if her motivations should not be the same?  As for rankings in the group, there are two rankings that are established, but do I have to establish the ranking of every member?  I mean other works of fiction do not go into the ranking of every member of a group of villains, so do I have to?  I feel that people want it to be a character study of the villains, when I don't think it's suppose to be one.  But does it have to be?



No, but you need to understand how the people and things you are writing about work. That's especially true when we're talking sensitive subjects like rape and gang crime. You need to understand how your gang operates so you can generate conflict and tension. It's irritating when you drag your feet on this stuff, you should want to understand it because it may be the difference between this working or not.



> As for doing research on why women would rape men, well the problem with real life cases, is I cannot find the why.  There is a who, what, where when, etc. but they never go into the why hardly, and that is what makes it tough to research so far.



Well that's straight up bullshit. There's a whole academic discipline called criminology which studies this exact subject and the varying motives behind crimes are discussed endlessly in true crime books. I suspect your 'research' involves wikipedia pages and not much else.

I already told you about Aileen Wournos. You could go and read about Myra Hindley. You could also read about Rosemary West. Tailor mentioned Karla Homolka. There's Gertrude Baniszewski. These are just cases I am pulling out of my head. There are a ton of studies and profiles that have been done on the phenomena of female teachers who molest their male students, there's tons on female criminals even about the obscurity that is 'women who rape men'. You're just being exceptionally lazy.


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## ironpony (Jul 24, 2020)

Oh okay but I thought that Aileen Wournos and Myra Hindley did not rape their victims though and it was different.  I can look them up again.  As for Gertrude Baniszewski, and Rosemary West,  their victims were woman though and not a man so I didn't think it was similar enough, unless I am wrong?

I also fount these cases as well where a woman kidnapped and raped a male:

https://www.geneticsandsociety.org/biopolitical-times/strange-saga-bernann-mckinney

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry...4Ml8r0mLOtANC1e6QMlNxecUn8---kWTqkfbf0z6a7Ci4

But I have not been able to find her motive so far.


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## luckyscars (Jul 25, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay but I thought that Aileen Wournos and Myra Hindley did not rape their victims though and it was different.  I can look them up again.  As for Gertrude Baniszewski, and Rosemary West,  their victims were woman though and not a man so I didn't think it was similar enough, unless I am wrong?
> 
> I also fount these cases as well where a woman kidnapped and raped a male:
> 
> ...



Myra Hindley was complicit in her lover's rape of their mutual victims and Aileen Wournos targeted men for revenge using sex. Those seem pretty analogous to your situation in terms of analyzing motive, which I thought was what you were complaining about needing.


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## ironpony (Jul 25, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> Myra Hindley was complicit in her lover's rape of their mutual victims and Aileen Wournos targeted men for revenge using sex. Those seem pretty analogous to your situation in terms of analyzing motive, which I thought was what you were complaining about needing.



Oh okay thanks, but the readers I have got back to me and they said that Myra Hindley is different from my story, and that it's apples and oranges they said.  Is it too different though?  Also even though Aileen Wournos used sex for revenge, I thought she didn't rape anyone, so isn't she different then compared to my character?

I've been trying to research Myra Hindley, but none of the articles say why she did it though, or what was in it for her it seems.  So far as I can tell, from the reading, is that she was pretty much a sheep who was easily led into doing it, but I cannot find why she chose to be a sheep though, and what was in it for her.


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## Taylor (Jul 25, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thanks, but the readers I have got back to me and they said that Myra Hindley is different from my story, and that it's apples and oranges they said.  Is it too different though?  Also even though Aileen Wournos used sex for revenge, I thought she didn't rape anyone, so isn't she different then compared to my character?
> 
> I've been trying to research Myra Hindley, but none of the articles say why she did it though, or what was in it for her it seems.  So far as I can tell, from the reading, is that she was pretty much a sheep who was easily led into doing it, but I cannot find why she chose to be a sheep though, and what was in it for her.



Wikipedia covers her personality/motivation pretty well:

_"Malcolm MacCulloch, professor of forensic psychiatry at Cardiff University, has written that Hindley's "relationship with her father brutalised her ... She was not only used to violence in the home but rewarded for it outside. When this happens at a young age it can distort a person's reaction to such situations for life."
_
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors_murders


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## ironpony (Jul 25, 2020)

Oh okay thanks, I did read that about her, that doesn't really come off as much of a motivation, just because she was abused.  I know a woman who was abused by her father while growing up, and she didn't resort to these types of crimes for example.  Don't I need something more specific?


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## Taylor (Jul 25, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thanks, I did read that about her, that doesn't really come off as much of a motivation, just because she was abused.  I know a woman who was abused by her father while growing up, and she didn't resort to these types of crimes for example.  Don't I need something more specific?



Well it was more than just abuse.  According to Wikipedia, her father threathened to "leather her" if she didn't retaliate for a boy that scratched her cheek.   She was encouraged to be violent and was raised to believe it was praiseworthy.


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## ironpony (Jul 25, 2020)

Oh okay.  Well in my story, I don't have time to go into the background of the characters though.  So do I have to, or is possible to get the reader to accept that characters are crazy psychos without having to have a background story on each one?  Because even if I come up with a whole background for her, it's not like I have time to go into it though, but would that be a problem?


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## Taylor (Jul 25, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay.  Well in my story, I don't have time to go into the background of the characters though.  So do I have to, or is possible to get the reader to accept that characters are crazy psychos without having to have a background story on each one?  Because even if I come up with a whole background for her, it's not like I have time to go into it though, but would that be a problem?



You shouldn't have to do a background story.  You can just add a few memories to be in her thoughts, i.e. "As she was tying the man's hands, she remembered her dad's expectations: _No dad...I don't want to do it to anyone else.  Why do I have to hurt others to get your approval? ". _  Do you know what I mean?  

Wow!  I can't believe that for even a minute you got me to empathize with a rapist...lol!!!


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## ironpony (Jul 25, 2020)

Oh okay, do you think I should add flashbacks though when she is tying up a man in your example?


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## luckyscars (Jul 25, 2020)

Daddy issues leading to needing male approval combined with a contradictory hatred of men as a result of said Daddy's abuses and/or abuses by other men could lead to a schizophrenic state in which a woman both desperately 'needs' male approval (in this case that of the rape gang) while simultaneously (and paradoxically) despising the male gender and wanting as many men to suffer as possible.

This is pretty advanced stuff, though. It doesn't have much real world precedent AFAIK but a good writer could probably toe the line here in writing this hypothetical female character. It's just going to be very difficult, not least because you would need to paint these two conflicting forces within her brain in a way that seems real. 

It's also a take that is extremely out of whack with the current political, which we do not need to go into much, except to say you stand a chance of pissing a lot of people off by having this character come across as the product of extreme misogyny: A female character whose personality is absolutely dictated by the men in her past and present to the extent she has absolutely zero control over any of her actions and is a consummate victim...is one that absolutely shits on feminism.


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## Taylor (Jul 25, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, do you think I should add flashbacks though when she is tying up a man in your example?



Not necessarily.  That was just an example.  Look through your scenes and see if there is something that makes sense with the continuity of your plot.


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## ironpony (Jul 25, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> Daddy issues leading to needing male approval combined with a contradictory hatred of men as a result of said Daddy's abuses and/or abuses by other men could lead to a schizophrenic state in which a woman both desperately 'needs' male approval (in this case that of the rape gang) while simultaneously (and paradoxically) despising the male gender and wanting as many men to suffer as possible.
> 
> This is pretty advanced stuff, though. It doesn't have much real world precedent AFAIK but a good writer could probably toe the line here in writing this hypothetical female character. It's just going to be very difficult, not least because you would need to paint these two conflicting forces within her brain in a way that seems real.
> 
> It's also a take that is extremely out of whack with the current political, which we do not need to go into much, except to say you stand a chance of pissing a lot of people off by having this character come across as the product of extreme misogyny: A female character whose personality is absolutely dictated by the men in her past and present to the extent she has absolutely zero control over any of her actions and is a consummate victim...is one that absolutely shits on feminism.



Oh okay, well is there a way to write a female rapist character, who joins a group of male rapists, without trying to get too political about it?  Also, I thought that since she was going around raping men, that would make her more of a product of misandry, than misogyny perhaps.

But even her having that past would cause her to join such a group, the group would still need a reason for accepting her.  So what would be there reason, then, since the argument was before, that they wouldn't be interested in making her a member of the group?  Or should I phrase it, what are some reasons, they would accept her, that would be convincing reasons?


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## luckyscars (Jul 25, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, well is there a way to write a female rapist character, who joins a group of male rapists, without trying to get too political about it?



No, I don't, I really don't, and people have warned you about this multiple times before. Unless your audience is a bunch of apes, they're going to most likely find the premise icky at best, regressive at worst. We don't live in the world of using-rape-as-a-mindless-plot-point anymore. Sexual violence is a hugely sensitive issue and if you're not going to treat it with sufficient sensitivity and thoughtfulness and be able to explain character motivations in a way that takes into account cultural attitudes in a thoughtful manner, I don't believe you will get anywhere.



ironpony said:


> But even her having that past would cause her to join such a group, the group would still need a reason for accepting her.  So what would be there reason, then, since the argument was before, that they wouldn't be interested in making her a member of the group?  Or should I phrase it, what are some reasons, they would accept her, that would be convincing reasons?



I have no idea. Probably to sleep with her? You need to formulate your own reasoning.


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## ironpony (Jul 25, 2020)

Oh okay, well I can definitely get into the politics of it, if that's best, it's just I was told before not to get into the politics of it as much, and that the story was too dark, and I should try to make it less dark.  But maybe trying to make it less dark is a mistake?

As for the male villains' reason for wanting her to join, I wrote it so that they felt that if they had a female member on in their group, that society would take their cause more seriously, with a female in the group, but will that reason work at all?

As for giving the female villain a tragic backstory, I also worried that if I do that, it will make more sympathetic possibly, but I don't think the reader should feel sympathetic for her since a lot of the story concentrates on rooting for the main character to bring her and the villains to their demise.  So therefore, would this be a problem for the reader, if I give her a tragic background story?

Or how about this:  It was said before that giving her the type of backstory, where she was made this way by men, would shit on feminism, so is there a way have a female character become a rapist, without shitting on feminism?  I mean I don't want to come off as anti-feminist at all, because I have a very capable and diabolical and strong female villain, who is a challenge for the protagonist, so I wanted her to be seen that way, rather than a product of shitting on feminism.  I thought that the type of villain she is, would be more progressive than regressive therefore.

I just find that there is a paradox here.  I was told way before, that the story is too dark and too political so I need to cut all that stuff out.  So I cut down on it.  Then I am now told it's too mindless and needs to be explored more.  Well which should I do then?

But how about this.... when it comes to researching real life cases of women who committed rape crimes, are there any I could research that did not have backgrounds where they are abused by men, if that kind of background is seen as anti-feminist to readers?  Like for example, what if I wrote it so she was abused by her Mom, rather than father, would that help?

So it was said that the story is too mindless and needs to be explored more.  But if I explore more, than all these anti-feminist politics come up.  So what's better than, or what approach should I take?  What if I were to hire on a criminal psychologist to help with it.  Perhaps they could come up with reasons for a woman to become a rapist, that would not be reasons seen as anti-feminist, and they would know, since it's their field of expertise?


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## luckyscars (Jul 25, 2020)

ironpony said:


> I just find that there is a paradox here.  I was told way before, that the story is too dark and too political so I need to cut all that stuff out.  So I cut down on it.  Then I am now told it's too mindless and needs to be explored more.  Well which should I do then?



I don't think a story about a gang of rapists can be 'too dark'.

As for 'too political', depends. I'm inclined to say that's probably not the case either, but I think your interpretation of what it means to write 'politically' is probably very different to mine. Political does not equal preaching. Political does not even mean that you have to mention politics. But you do have to defer to the political issues and debates that your audience will be cognizant of.

I think you mentioned 'The Accused' before once upon a time. That's a pretty good example. It's an extremely political movie which does not actually state a political position nor include it in the script. It's still political, though, because we get a sense of the zeitgeist; the values and climate in which it is set and the conflict and outcome reflects that perspective and suggests an agenda -- key word being _suggests_. Clockwork Orange is also political. Again, almost no mentions of political thoughts and certainly no preaching, but it reflects a point of view. An argument.


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## ironpony (Jul 25, 2020)

luckyscars said:


> I don't think a story about a gang of rapists can be 'too dark'.
> 
> As for 'too political', depends. I'm inclined to say that's probably not the case either, but I think your interpretation of what it means to write 'politically' is probably very different to mine. Political does not equal preaching. Political does not even mean that you have to mention politics. But you do have to defer to the political issues and debates that your audience will be cognizant of.
> 
> I think you mentioned 'The Accused' before once upon a time. That's a pretty good example. It's an extremely political movie which does not actually state a political position nor include it in the script. It's still political, though, because we get a sense of the zeitgeist; the values and climate in which it is set and the conflict and outcome reflects that perspective and suggests an agenda -- key word being _suggests_. Clockwork Orange is also political. Again, almost no mentions of political thoughts and certainly no preaching, but it reflects a point of view. An argument.



Oh okay, sure I see what you mean there.  But in this case, if the woman has to have a tragic background that will come off as anti-feminist, what do I do there, if it's going to be a problem with most people or be seen as regressive?

I mean in movies like A Clockwork Orange or The Accused for example... It's been quite a while since I have seem them, but they do not really go into the backstories of the rapists, how they became that way, if I remember correct.  In A Clocwork Orange, we see how the main character was raised by rich parents, but I do not remember any tragic background in there though, unless I am not remembering correct.

Is that a good approach, or is that going to seen as a plot hole, if I do do not go into the background and explain it?


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## luckyscars (Jul 26, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, sure I see what you mean there.  But in this case, if the woman has to have a tragic background that will come off as anti-feminist, what do I do there, if it's going to be a problem with most people or be seen as regressive?
> 
> I mean in movies like A Clockwork Orange or The Accused for example... It's been quite a while since I have seem them, but they do not really go into the backstories of the rapists, how they became that way, if I remember correct.  In A Clocwork Orange, we see how the main character was raised by rich parents, but I do not remember any tragic background in there though, unless I am not remembering correct.
> 
> Is that a good approach, or is that going to seen as a plot hole, if I do do not go into the background and explain it?



The problem with answering these questions is that I always inevitably start to feel like I am encouraging you. I am categorically not encouraging you, I do not want to encourage you and I consider anybody who does encourage you to at best be naive as to the circumstances, at medium-worst be virtue signalling, and at worst be, as the British say, _taking the piss_. 

The main reason I engage in your posts is because I am hopeful that eventually self-awareness will help you to see that this is not working. At a certain point I always inevitably give up for a time. That time is now, on this occasion.

But, to ensure I am answering, I don't think it matters if you include backstory or not. I don't think it matters if you try to write the character a certain way or not. This is because I am completely certain you will not write this story in a way that doesn't backfire horribly regardless of your efforts in any direction. I base this judgment on the following:

- Your relentless reliance on others to help you with aspects that you should both want and feel able to decide for yourself.
- Your obvious lack of knowledge of the subject matter.
- Your need to set characters according to stringent typecasting -- 'coloring by numbers'
- Your inability to articulate why you are the person best placed to write this story beyond 'I am interested', which is not always sufficient and is self-evidently not sufficient in this instance.
- The fact you have been working on this for, if I recall correctly, five years. Possibly more, not sure. Either way, you are entering Tolkien territory on the production time and based on the circularity of the questioning and the length at which such circularity has been indulged in over those years, it does not seem as though progress is being made. It seems like you are torturing yourself.

Moreover I think, assuming you ever decide to complete this project (which I do not believe either) it will not be written in the manner that will make it palatable to the already limited number of people who will even be willing to look at this kind of material. Screen is competitive anyway and this type of material is a hard sell even if Spielberg is writing it. I do not think you are Spielberg.

So, I respectfully decline to continue participation in this thread and urge you, once again, to reconsider the project. Not to discourage your writing but to encourage it: You could be using this time you are unequivocally wasting to work on something far more in keeping with your skill set and experiences and developmental stage and your 'career' be better for it. 

Sometimes as writers we need to take a step backwards to go forward. It was a really good lesson for me and I hope it eventually becomes one for you -- and not too late.


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## ironpony (Jul 26, 2020)

Oh okay.  Well I am trying to take readers suggestions on how to make it better.  Now it was said before not to listen to readers, a lot, but how do you know if the story is good if you write it completely your own way without taking in any feedback?  For example, is it normal for readers tell you there are several problems with your stories, that need fixing, but you say, well I'm not going to do it, and then just send it out anyway, hoping for the best, and that it will picked up?


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## ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord (Jul 28, 2020)

Yes, it's normal to do that. If you have a good idea of what you want your story to be and a decent enough radar for what works and what doesn't, it's up to you to decide what feedback to use. Here's an example: for one LM challenge I wrote a story in a very odd literary style. One piece of feedback (from a judge I respect very much btw; in this case he just had a different taste) I got was that the style didn't work. Another judge pointed out syntax errors, and one irl reader said the ending was too fast. Now if I decide to send that story somewhere else, I'll fix the syntax and the ending because I agree with those criticisms, but I won't change the style because I like it and think it works. You're not a slave to beta readers. Look at the story yourself.  Do _you_ think it has problems?


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## ironpony (Aug 1, 2020)

ArrowInTheBowOfTheLord said:


> Yes, it's normal to do that. If you have a good idea of what you want your story to be and a decent enough radar for what works and what doesn't, it's up to you to decide what feedback to use. Here's an example: for one LM challenge I wrote a story in a very odd literary style. One piece of feedback (from a judge I respect very much btw; in this case he just had a different taste) I got was that the style didn't work. Another judge pointed out syntax errors, and one irl reader said the ending was too fast. Now if I decide to send that story somewhere else, I'll fix the syntax and the ending because I agree with those criticisms, but I won't change the style because I like it and think it works. You're not a slave to beta readers. Look at the story yourself.  Do _you_ think it has problems?



Oh well, I don't think the story has problems per se, but I feel that when people give me opinions on it, of things that do not make sense, I will quote precedent but they don't like it when I quote precedent.  Is quoting precedent bad though?

For example, there is a scene where the police go to arrest a character who is in a bar with his friends.  One reader said this was a plot hole, because the police do not arrest people in bars, they arrest them in their homes.  I wanted the arrest to be in a bar though, because I wanted the person being arrested to feel shame in front of their friends, in a public place.

Now if it's a plot hole that it's not explained how the police new the person would be there, there are other movies where the police show up in a public place to arrest a person all the time, without any explanation on how they knew the person would be there.  But is quoting precedent from other works of fiction a bad thing to do?


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