# What should my villain's plan be in this case for his goal to work?



## ironpony (Jan 3, 2016)

In my story, there is a group of people who are have poor social skills because of their conditions while growing up.  Conditions that would prohibit them from developing relationships with people and also romantic relationships of the opposite sex.  This causes them to suffer from their involuntary celibacy, and they form a group of crooks who decide to do something about it to teach society a lesson so to speak.  However, I am wondering what they could to make society listen.

My original idea, was to have them kidnap and rape victims of the opposite sex, videotape it, and then broadcast it over the net, for all the public to see while making their demands.  The videos would be made to be untraceable by them of course.  They could also kill the victims as well, or let them go, without them knowing who kidnapped them, since they were wearing masks and gloves the whole time.

However I showed an earlier draft to readers before, and they said they did not understand how the villain's way of teaching society a lesson would really work.  It's not a solution they said.  Basically I was told that they need an M.O., that makes more sense.  So I was wondering what could they do instead, that would teach society a lesson, and actually create change?

One writer I asked about it said that they should threaten to kill one of their hostages or more, unless the government passes certain laws that would meet their demands.  However, this didn't really seem like it would to me, as you cannot pass a law that would actually get society to behave a certain way.  You can only change society by making them feel a certain way, not by passing laws.  Plus I don't think the government would do it, even if people's lives were at steak.

One idea I have is that maybe the gang should just kidnap victims, but not rape or kill them at all, and maybe just psychologically terrorize them in front of a camera, for the public to see, then they state their demands, and then release the victims.  That way they are using a less aggressive approach.  Still very aggressive, just not near as, in comparison.  This will either get society to listen more, or it will not be enough, and they would still have to take more extreme measures.

But what do you think?  I am curious as to what approach I should take with these types of villains, when it comes to giving them an M.O. that would make more sense in achieving their goals for the reader.  What do you think?


----------



## Ultraroel (Jan 4, 2016)

WHy do you think a small group of people who have some serious issues themselves will be able to influence anything?
Why should they be heard? A small group of people who have social issues themselves?
Also, what kind of demands would they make? 

I think your idea of having influence on society, based on their own flaws is.. well.. flawed.. It's a fair motive for criminals to do what they wanna do and rape, murder and destroy.. But giving them some influence on society is very far-fetched imo. 

Also, what kind of demands can these guys make?

You can write that cause they have weak social skills and no real insight, they  THINK they can achieve influence by some degree.. but realistically.. I would not stand for actual results.

Have you ever head of some recent groups that actually achieved what they wanted with violence or crime? Except companies.


----------



## ironpony (Jan 4, 2016)

Okay thanks.  Well since I am into writing screenplays, I tend to use movies as examples, and I can think of a few where a small group or one person, had an influence on a lot of people by committing crimes.  Two movies that come to mind are Natural Born Killers, and Seven.

In Seven the villain says that what he does will be studied and pondered over forever.  The movie ends on that note, and it's left up the viewer's imagination as to how it effected society, where as I want to portray the actual effect.


----------



## Ultraroel (Jan 4, 2016)

I get your point, but honestly it seems a bit far fetched. In case you really want them to have an influence, they will have to do something more radical than that..
Maybe take it out on high profile targets, not demanding, but rather making an example of what happens when one does "X".
In most cases this will be world wide news and the more it happens, the more frightened people who show "x" will be.
These people might or might not adjust their behavior, based on their own moral points of view.

With these movies, I believe they did not show the aftermath, as they weren't sure themselves what this would be. 

I would say, look at current day terrorism, it's very radical and has some a huge effect on society.. terrorism can be used for many causes.


----------



## ironpony (Jan 4, 2016)

Okay thanks.  They can make an example, by showing a kidnapped hostage, and then maybe holding her for a week, saying this is what happens when you treat us this way.... Then later on release her, and they can do it again, if they are treated that way again.

But you say it should be more radical.  The demands could be very specific and immediate such as the next person of their kind to be rejected will result in the current hostage being raped on camera, for everyone to see, which can put pressure on people not to reject the next person who tries to get a date, or what not.

But is that the best way to go about it?  The best thing to do is to gain as much sympathy as possible so the cause will be more understood, perhaps?  Or would people not give into sympathy and more terrorism is the way to go?


----------



## Ultraroel (Jan 4, 2016)

Well, for me it is unclear what the demands are. 
Socially weak can mean a lot and for me it's not clear what kind of demands they would like to make. 

If the demands are like: 'we do not want to be rejected when we demand a date'. I would choose a local public figure that is known for prudence or exactly the opposite. 
The idea for rape on video is pretty brutal and definitely a statement that will stick to a lot of people. 

Keeping someone hostage is bad, but when you know you will be let go, it's.. less intimidating or something.
Maybe public humiliation of the people who make fun of them would be even better.. let them do the worst things you can imagine and post that stuff on the internet. 
People are very scared of public humiliation, there is a fair motive which can be found, it can be posted and it can be put into more and more extreme measures, also.. the "demands" will be less diminished by the nature of the crime compared to rape or killing.. As soon as the measures taken are too harsh (compared to the demands), people will start making fun of the factions involved, rather than being impressed or willing to adapt to their wishes. 

Again, I do not really know the nature of the criminals and demands and the details of social weaknesses...


----------



## ironpony (Jan 4, 2016)

Okay thanks. I will think about what the other factors could be more specifically, before I answer.  What do mean when you say choosing a local public figure known for the opposite?


----------



## Ultraroel (Jan 4, 2016)

Someone who is known for prudence, so will reject most.. Or the opposite.. Someone who is known as a complete flirt who will bed anyone who says something nice..someone into the extreme corner of society to make an example.


----------



## ironpony (Jan 4, 2016)

Ultraroel said:


> Someone who is known for prudence, so will reject most.. Or the opposite.. Someone who is known as a complete flirt who will bed anyone who says something nice..someone into the extreme corner of society to make an example.



Okay thanks.  But I am not sure where you going with the idea though.


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Jan 5, 2016)

Ummm..."going with" the idea is your job. 

And just by the way...what is it with you and the "rape on camera" thing? Do you seem intent on using that simply because it's the most heinous thing you can think of?


----------



## ironpony (Jan 5, 2016)

T.S.Bowman said:


> Ummm..."going with" the idea is your job.
> 
> And just by the way...what is it with you and the "rape on camera" thing? Do you seem intent on using that simply because it's the most heinous thing you can think of?



I don't have to use it, as long as they can get society to listen.  It's just that if you want people to listen, I think they would actually have to make good on their threats and force brutal violence in order to be heard, since mere threats alone will not do anything probably.  I mean most wars are fought, because the other side did not listen to a threat, they actually want a fight in real life scenarios.

I don't have to have the rape, but will society listen, if they just kidnap and threat only?


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Jan 5, 2016)

Kidnap, threaten, act if threat isn't taken seriously. Pull an ISIS kind of move and behead the hostage. Boil the hostage alive on camera. Find an iron Maiden and use that on the hostage. There are any number of ways to show brutality. 

I just wondered about the rape thing because I have seen you mention it a few times.


----------



## ironpony (Jan 5, 2016)

Oh it was just the original idea, so they would be able to brutalize them in front of people, without having to kill them, and leave a dead body to possibly be found for evidence of murder, since rape is less of a punishment than murder, if caught.

Boiling a hostage to death, and beheading are worse than rape though, aren't they?


----------



## dale (Jan 5, 2016)

i think he should take his penis out and start twirling it in a circle. because when i'm a villain? that always makes my plan work.


----------



## DaBlaRR (Jan 5, 2016)

It would take an army of people to get the attention of society to the point of changing whatever they want to change.

Just make it so that their twisted minds think they can change things by whatever they do, be it rape, boiling OR penis twirling. 

But in reality they're going to fail.


----------



## ironpony (Jan 5, 2016)

DaBlaRR said:


> It would take an army of people to get the attention of society to the point of changing whatever they want to change.
> 
> Just make it so that their twisted minds think they can change things by whatever they do, be it rape, boiling OR penis twirling.
> 
> But in reality they're going to fail.



Okay thanks.  But there have been stories where only a few people were able to influence society with their crimes though.  Like in the movie Natural Born Killers for example, only two serial killers were able to create mass media and get a lot of fans that way.  Could I write it sort of like that?

It's just the ending I want counts on them having an influence.


----------



## DaBlaRR (Jan 5, 2016)

Course you can dude. But a few video taped rapes isn't gonna do it. Natural Born Killers they went on a mass murder spree. They didn't change shit about society besides making some peeps scared. 

They no doubt can instill fear in the population. But once they're caught, they will be forgotten in a year. Then the next infamous thing will happen. 

But again as I mentioned... they can be polluted enough to think they can... it's actually a great motivation and a false sense of worth.


----------



## DaBlaRR (Jan 5, 2016)

If you have any chance of making them have a mass influence...

Have them have mass followers... Their infamy makes them darkly loved by some dark people who feel they share their beliefs... and there is more out there than society thinks. Then create a sect...


----------



## Wandering Man (Jan 5, 2016)

Speaking of penises ...

Mutilation is always an attention getter. Maybe causing someone responsible for their condition to suffer the same?


----------



## ironpony (Jan 5, 2016)

Okay thanks for the input.  I have to ask, is this penis mutilation brainstorming, just kidding, or are you seriously suggesting it?

I think that would be worse than showing a rape, perhaps.

Another movie I can think of is Seven, where the killer says that "what I have done will be studied forever".  The movie ends not too long after, so we don't know if what he did will be studied forever, but it definitely hints that.

I would like to write it so that my villains have influence, in order to make my plot go where I want it to go.  But if kidnapping people and putting psychological fear into them, with videos, is not enough, what else has to be done, without loosing too much sympathy from the reader?


----------



## Wandering Man (Jan 5, 2016)

No, serious idea.  I would think that revenge would include doing to the other what was done to them, but worse.

Yes, my opinion is that mutilation is more horrific than murder.

But it is your story, not mine.


----------



## DaBlaRR (Jan 5, 2016)

Penis mutilation. This thread is going sideways. 

You referenced seven a few times. It was a great movie. But it was brilliantly written in the way to make everyone think. It's not the brutality of what your guys are doing.. it's the crazy twists that make it original... that makes the readers/spectators think long after it's done.


----------



## Bishop (Jan 5, 2016)

Personally, I think the genius in Se7en was the deplorable victims. And the fact that John Doe's speech about their glaring vices almost made you empathize with him over those he murdered.

Get me to empathize with your villain, and I'm damn intrigued.


----------



## ironpony (Jan 5, 2016)

Okay thanks.  But I don't know if penis mutilation is the best way to get one to sympathize with the villain, and if it's not the violence that is going to make society think, then does anyone have any ideas of what my villain can to do get society to listen, but also have sympathy, by not being too brutal, as well?


----------



## Bishop (Jan 6, 2016)

I dont really think any method of murder or assault is what makes us empathize with a villain. We have to empathize with them in spite of the fact that they murder or mutilate. This is a difficult skill, and one I can't say I've mastered. That being said, I think it lies in the murder's motives more than their methods, and the victim's likability plays a part as well. Personality, backstory, basically every element of character creation can play into how we empathize with them.

I don't have an answer as to what will work, or how to make it good. If I did, I'd be using it in my own writing, trust me. This is the struggle of being a writer, finding out how to write the story in a way that works, engages the reader, and tells your story.


----------



## DBX (Jan 6, 2016)

You need to make them do something that is shocking and is a threat to the whole city or something. Raping some peeps ain't gonna work yo. Maybe pee in their eyes or something like that. Then threaten to pee in everyone's eyes... ya know? Something like that.


----------



## Terry D (Jan 6, 2016)

Criminal acts (with a very few exceptions, like 9/11, or the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand) do not change "society," whatever that is. In the movie Se7en, John Doe _wants_ to make people listen, and needs to believe he's done something which will make that happen, but that's just part of his psychosis, not a real fact. Charles Manson wanted to change society too -- look where that got him.


----------



## ironpony (Jan 6, 2016)

Terry D said:


> Criminal acts (with a very few exceptions, like 9/11, or the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand) do not change "society," whatever that is. In the movie Se7en, John Doe _wants_ to make people listen, and needs to believe he's done something which will make that happen, but that's just part of his psychosis, not a real fact. Charles Manson wanted to change society too -- look where that got him.



Okay thanks, but in movies like Seven, the movie ends on a note, that made the killer seem like the victor.  So if people were not going to listen to him, and his plan was not going to have any influence, then why did it end on that note?  But there are stories where a killer does have a large social influence, such as the movie Natural Born Killers.

Why isn't rape and murder enough for my killer though?  If he broadcasts his crimes for the public to see, does he have to pee in their eyes or things like that, just to get them to listen?   I mean even though I want the reader to emphasize with him, I want the reader to agree that he is doing it cause he has to, to get people to listen, not because he is enjoying, which he is not.  The more he does it as the story goes on, the more morally conflicted he becomes, because he has to keep doing it to keep the fear instilled.

I mean is society so hardened that rape and murder is not enough to get them to listen?  If it's not then perhaps I should tell my story differently.  Perhaps I should write it so that a big theme in the story is how society is so hardened that the villain has to do get his hands so gratuitously dirty just to get them to listen.   Should I concentrate on that angle, as to how the villain really doesn't want to do what he does, but feels he has to, because society will only listen if there is a lot of brutality?

What about the number of people kidnapped?  If they kidnapped and raped say 500 people over a year, and those people were in the videos and forever humiliated, would that have an influence on a society as a whole, if the number of victims is large?

If I put stuff in a such as peeing in eyes and mutilating body parts, it can come off as too gratuitous.  Is their a way to change society without the violence itself, being too gratuitous?


----------



## dale (Jan 6, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks, but.......



this is the true neverending story. i bet i could write a pretty decent story about you and all your questions
before you could ever finish the story you're asking so many questions about.


----------



## Thaumiel (Jan 6, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks, but in movies like Seven, the movie ends on a note, that made the killer seem like the victor.  So if people were not going to listen to him, and his plan was not going to have any influence, then why did it end on that note?  But there are stories where a killer does have a large social influence, such as the movie Natural Born Killers.
> 
> Why isn't rape and murder enough for my killer though?  If he broadcasts his crimes for the public to see, does he have to pee in their eyes or things like that, just to get them to listen?   I mean even though I want the reader to emphasize with him, I want the reader to agree that he is doing it cause he has to, to get people to listen, not because he is enjoying, which he is not.  The more he does it as the story goes on, the more morally conflicted he becomes, because he has to keep doing it to keep the fear instilled.
> 
> ...



I think you're missing the point a bit. It's not how grotesque the acts are. It's more to do with your character actually being able to convince people, not just through the gratuity of the act, but why they're doing it. How the act is executed, how it is shown to people and how your character explains it are all far more important than what the act happens to be.

Think about the real world. You've asked if rape and murder isn't enough to get people to listen. At an individual level, yes. As a society, definitely not. There are rapes and murders every day, sure showing them to people would invoke a reaction but I doubt they'd listen to someone's message to the world just because they murdered or raped someone.


----------



## ironpony (Jan 6, 2016)

Yep, that makes sense.  It's just the suggestions that have been described, such as peeing in someone's eyes or penis mutalation suggests that people will only listen to grotesque consequences, otherwise it's not enough.

But what can I do in order to get them to listen without the crimes not being grotesque?  Is their any better approaches to take actually get people to take in the message?  It's not the act that's important for the theme of the story, it's the message, in order for the story to go, where I want it to go.


----------



## DaBlaRR (Jan 6, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks, but in movies like Seven, the movie ends on a note, that made the killer seem like the victor.  So if people were not going to listen to him, and his plan was not going to have any influence, then why did it end on that note?  But there are stories where a killer does have a large social influence, such as the movie Natural Born Killers.
> 
> Why isn't rape and murder enough for my killer though?  If he broadcasts his crimes for the public to see, does he have to pee in their eyes or things like that, just to get them to listen?   I mean even though I want the reader to emphasize with him, I want the reader to agree that he is doing it cause he has to, to get people to listen, not because he is enjoying, which he is not.  The more he does it as the story goes on, the more morally conflicted he becomes, because he has to keep doing it to keep the fear instilled.
> 
> ...




I vote for peeing in their eyes.


----------



## ironpony (Jan 6, 2016)

Why is peeing in the eyes so special, I have to ask?

Since the villains have poor social skills which is what makes them be treated differently, and involuntarily celebant, what if they gave their victims' lobotomies, or something like that?  That way, the victim becomes socially challenged like they are, but even more so.

The thing, is, not just anyone can perform a lobotomy, and it may be far fetched that people who haven't even learned can do this, successfully.  That is just one idea, but it may be too far fetched?


----------



## patskywriter (Jan 6, 2016)

What you don’t seem to have a handle on is that this is *your* society you’re writing about. Sure, you want your story to have a semblance of reality, but at the end of the day it’s your story. That’s why some of us are/appear to be perturbed by your questions. I might want to write about a red-headed African-American who grew up in small-town Alabama, wore nothing but white throughout her childhood, and then traveled to Russia later in life. You might say that that doesn’t sound very realistic, but I just described my grandmother. Have the courage to hash out the details of your story by yourself — you’re acting as if there’s a right way and a wrong way to write a story. As far as I know, there isn’t. Write the darn story.


----------



## Thaumiel (Jan 6, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Yep, that makes sense.  It's just the suggestions that have been described, such as peeing in someone's eyes or penis mutalation suggests that people will only listen to grotesque consequences, otherwise it's not enough.
> 
> But what can I do in order to get them to listen without the crimes not being grotesque?  Is their any better approaches to take actually get people to take in the message?  It's not the act that's important for the theme of the story, it's the message, in order for the story to go, where I want it to go.



For a start you need to relate the crime to your message. The crime itself is pointless if it's irrelevant. Imagine a video of someone being raped that ended in a request for donations to the RSPCA, it doesn't carry the message well.

If you can make the viewers think logically through the steps that lead to the crime being committed then I'd suggest they'd be more likely to take in what the criminal has to say.


----------



## ironpony (Jan 6, 2016)

Okay thanks.  I am writing the story now, and have already finished a good portion of the plot.  I am just not sure what the crimes themselves would be, and wanted to ask.

What crime would be logical to commit, if it were the case?  Since the group was lonely and tired of being treated inferior, causing them involuntary celibacy, I thought maybe rape would be sort of connected, or at least the most connected one I could think of.

But if that's not logical to the villain's problem then what would a more logical crime be, if anyone has any thoughts?

Also you said that the crime itself is pointless, if it's irrelevant.  But what if the gang broadcasted themselves raping someone, then they made a video saying it will happen again, two more times, and be broadcasted by the end of the week, if any guy is rejected by a woman for the next month...  Or something like that.  Wouldn't the crime be relevant, if it was a threat and people did not want it to happen again?


----------



## Thaumiel (Jan 6, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  I am writing the story now, and have already finished a good portion of the plot.  I am just not sure what the crimes themselves would be, and wanted to ask.
> 
> What crime would be logical to commit, if it were the case?  Since the group was lonely and tired of being treated inferior, causing them involuntary celibacy, I thought maybe rape would be sort of connected, or at least the most connected one I could think of.
> 
> But if that's not logical to the villain's problem then what would a more logical crime be, if anyone has any thoughts?



Kidnappings definitely, not just to rape, perhaps to keep them as forced company if they're lonely? Maybe they want to deliberately induce Stockholm syndrome so that their victim will want to be with them? It's your story, it's up to you to piece it all out.


----------



## ironpony (Jan 6, 2016)

Well they are already kidnapping to make the videos with the hostages.  But it was said before that kidnapping is not enough, or the crime has to be more brutal or different, to get people's attention, so will it be enough?


----------



## DaBlaRR (Jan 6, 2016)

Based on this thread I am going to write a story about twirling mutilated penises and eyes... eyes that are peed in. Seriously. That's good readin.


----------



## TJ1985 (Jan 6, 2016)

DaBlaRR said:


> twirling mutilated penises



What the world needs is a rock band by this name!


----------



## ironpony (Jan 6, 2016)

James 剣 斧 血 said:


> Kidnappings definitely, not just to rape, perhaps to keep them as forced company if they're lonely? Maybe they want to deliberately induce Stockholm syndrome so that their victim will want to be with them? It's your story, it's up to you to piece it all out.



Actually after thinking about this idea, it may be good and work.  Is it possible to enduce Stockholm syndrome on so many victims though, is it that common?  Plus if the victims have stockholm syndrome, then other potential victims who hear about it, may not get Stockholm syndrome if they are kidnapped because since they know it's the gang's M.O., their defenses will be more up.  What do you think?


----------



## DaBlaRR (Jan 6, 2016)

Ironpony. This question isn't intended to be rude, it is just curiosity. Is there any part of this story you are writing that you don't second guess yourself? 

It almost seems that there are multiple people writing this for you. Love that you what to make everything perfect... but it really sounds like you don't believe in anything you put on paper.


----------



## dale (Jan 6, 2016)

DaBlaRR said:


> Ironpony. This question isn't intended to be rude, it is just curiosity. Is there any part of this story you are writing that you don't second guess yourself?
> 
> It almost seems that there are multiple people writing this for you. Love that you what to make everything perfect... but it really sounds like you don't believe in anything you put on paper.



it's kind of the point he doesn't get. as writers...we make the "unbelievable" believable. 
that's like an essential part of the writer's mind.  but it's not something that other people 
can do for you. i could take a can of worms and turn it into sawdust. i can do that and i can
make it "believable". that's why i'm published.


----------



## ironpony (Jan 7, 2016)

Sorry I know I shouldn't have other people write it for me.  I guess instead of writing an entire story, only to find out it doesn't work, I feel it's better to establish with others if the idea makes sense first?  Cause if it doesn't make sense to begin with, then what's the point of writing a whole story around it?  I just feel I need to confirmation so I know I have an idea that makes sense before I write the whole thing.  I was told that was my problem before by another writer, is that I would write a whole story, only to find out it doesn't work, without establishing if the idea first, and getting confirmation.

So since I was told that, I have been doing that lately.


----------



## DaBlaRR (Jan 8, 2016)

Getting advice is one thing... But forget what "other writers" tell you. Do what you feel is right. 

The story will never be complete if you are trying to make the perfect story, that makes perfect sense, because people who beta read for you, or people on a forum tell you it makes sense or doesn't. Just write it dude. Then fail at it or succeed and learn from either or. I'm not nearly as experienced as a lot of people on this forum, but I at least know that much. 

You know what I've learned. Fuck the norm! I come here for advice. I say thank you and then decide if I take it or not. The people I seek advice from may steer me or they may not... whether they do or don't, they definitely don't make my decisions for me. This is where you are going to say, "Well no ones making my decisions for me." Then I say, "Yeah right." You couldn't make a decision if it slapped you in the face bro. I'm saying that based on your constant uncertainty, and I'm not saying that can't change.

Write the damn thing. Write the FULL thing. PERIOD.

Ok maybe that was a vent. It's Friday. I had a few beers. But it's still the truth.


----------



## bazz cargo (Jan 9, 2016)

Hi Ironpony,
this is a bit complicated so if I don't explain it successfully, sorry.

In each group of people there is a 'leader' that sets the dynamic. Think of the sarcastic teacher that inadvertently gives a class carte blanche to bully some poor sod. 

The attitude of 's/he is not of our group and therefore is less than human and I can behave in a totally uncivilised way towards them' is remarkably prevalent. This attitude is behind your premise. And with that comes an anything goes mentality.

Making a change in society, hmmm... Do it my way or I will kill you. This is terrorist stuff. A study of  the various factions in the Middle East will help. 

Mutilation and/or rape may make the 'gang' feel like they are doing the 'right thing' but in reality it is just exercising their own predilections and will be counter productive.  Mostly, arrogance breeds contempt. 

Good luck
BC


----------



## ironpony (Jan 9, 2016)

Okay thanks.  I will write the whole thing out, but I still not sure on what the villains should do to get society to change.  Not all of a society has to change but they have to change a certain amount to get the story to go where I want it to go.  Is there a way a crime they could commit against society that would be productive to a substantial degree?

One example I can think of, with inspirational criminals was Bonnie and Clyde, who had a lot of fans.  In my story, I want the villains to have fans, but that doesn't mean that the reader is suppose to agree with the fans as to what the villains are doing, the fans are just used to create chaos and conflict.


----------



## bazz cargo (Jan 9, 2016)

Ah ha! It is the 'Fan Leader.' Someone who takes the time to create a 'myth.' 

Reference PT Barnum.


----------



## ironpony (Jan 9, 2016)

Well I was told before, that in order to suspend disbelief, I have to make it believable.  So what can I do to make the terrorist threats, actually have results and change society, to where the reader will believe it?


----------



## Ultraroel (Jan 11, 2016)

Well, if you have a specific thing you want to write about, you can choose to make the measure believable from the criminals point of view, you can try to create a society where it will work.
You are the writer, start writing and setting the conditions that will make it believable. Feedback will tell you what makes it dishonest and where this is the issue.

It seems to me you are worrying too much and writing and believing in yourself too less.


----------



## ironpony (Jan 11, 2016)

Well I have done that a few times with different methods they could use, but so far, readers are telling me that the premise is totally not believable, and they said that the reason why it doesn't work, is because in each method I have used (rape, murder, just kidnapping and releasing, etc), none of these methods are logically work to achieve their goal.

So I do not know what will work anymore, and am kind of stuck now, as to what crime they should commit to threaten society effectively.  Murder will not work, nor will kidnapping, nor will rape.  So what else is there really, without having to be so sadistic?


----------



## bazz cargo (Jan 11, 2016)

It is not the brutality, it is the reasoning behind the act. 

'I do this because...' 

The usual rational is something like 'revenge for killing my friend/family/group I identify with and there is no other form of justice. 

WE are persecuted/have a dream. 

You could study how Daesh do their thing. 

This is something you will have to work on. Good luck
BC


----------



## Ultraroel (Jan 12, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Well I have done that a few times with different methods they could use, but so far, readers are telling me that the premise is totally not believable, and they said that the reason why it doesn't work, is because in each method I have used (rape, murder, just kidnapping and releasing, etc), none of these methods are logically work to achieve their goal.



Instead of making the perfect crime, try to make it a reasonable option for the criminal, something that makes sense in his perspective


----------



## ironpony (Jan 12, 2016)

Ultraroel said:


> Instead of making the perfect crime, try to make it a reasonable option for the criminal, something that makes sense in his perspective



Okay thanks for the idea.  But... wouldn't the most reasonable option be the perfect crime?  What kind of a crook would not want the perfect crime to be his reasonable option?  Sorry if I am not seeing it right, it just seems to me that the two would go hand in hand.


----------



## Ultraroel (Jan 12, 2016)

No. I meant you are searching for the crime that makes sense and is perfect for the criminals goals. Instead, a character can have an idea and a reason for something very useless, but it can be believable cause from his perspective, it seems to make sense. So what I mean to say is: if you set the atmosphere and background and psych of the bad guy correct, stealing a pen could be a believable crime for this person. Or staying somewhere where consumption is required, without having the required consumption.. Believable crime does not depend only on crime. But on society, background of the criminal, way of thinking, previous experiences etc..  You can justify almost anything, if you can set a believable context


----------



## ironpony (Jan 12, 2016)

Ultraroel said:


> No. I meant you are searching for the crime that makes sense and is perfect for the criminals goals. Instead, a character can have an idea and a reason for something very useless, but it can be believable cause from his perspective, it seems to make sense. So what I mean to say is: if you set the atmosphere and background and psych of the bad guy correct, stealing a pen could be a believable crime for this person. Or staying somewhere where consumption is required, without having the required consumption.. Believable crime does not depend only on crime. But on society, background of the criminal, way of thinking, previous experiences etc..  You can justify almost anything, if you can set a believable context



Okay thanks.  What can I do to make my context more believable, since some readers find it far fetched, or find that the villain's actions are a lost cause?


----------



## InstituteMan (Jan 12, 2016)

For me--and I suspect most people--villains ramping up the extremity of their crimes may get more of my attention, but it won't get my empathy or my sympathy. It certainly won't get me to treat them better.

"Treat me better or I will hurt someone" isn't a message that goes over well; it certainly isn't a way to actually get treated better by society. An individual psychopath may change his or her behavior in the face of such a threat, but the broad swath of typical people respond better to empathy and genuine kindness. 

The kind of behavior you describe for your villains sounds like an extreme version of the conduct that people worry will happen if they, say, go on a date with someone who comes across to them as creepy. I suspect that readers who have told you that the story doesn't work for them came to that conclusion because the tactics you describe would be more likely to make society collectively decide that they were right to ostracize your villains in the first place and then to ostracize them and everyone like them more, not less. The way to make the story more believable isn't to make the crimes more offensive and attention grabbing; that will only make the implausibility greater. The answer, to me at least, is to tweak the story to something more plausible (or, as others have suggested, to just write the darn thing as you want and let the plausibility chips fall where they may).

If the point of the story is that the villains are evil and (at least retroactively) justifying the mistreatment they believe they have received from society, I can't think of a better way to do it than abducting women and raping them on camera. If the point is that there's something sympathetic about these villains that society has missed, raping captives on a video stream won't accomplish that.

My advice is to pick between telling (1) a story of delusional criminals who try to change society by committing horrible crimes and fail or (2) a story about how society can actually be changed through more subtle means. Option (1) is potentially a spectacular tale, while option (2) is potentially a beautiful and heart rending tale. From reading this and other threads, it seems like you are more interested and knowledgable of the delusional-criminal-committing-horrible-crimes story, but that's hard to combine with a believable story about changing society. Therefore, I suggest going with option (1).

There are, as you have noted, stories of horrible villains who inspire at least a bit of empathy with readers (or viewers) because readers can empathize with the damage that was done to make the villain turn out as he or she did. There are also villains who inspire a certain type of fandom because they are just so evil. If you go with the delusional-villan-committing-horrible-crimes approach, you can try to inspire empathy or fandom, but I don't see a through line to tell a believable story where those villains successfully make the world a better place.

Good luck with the writing!


----------



## ironpony (Jan 12, 2016)

Okay thanks.  Basically for my story I want society to be changed at first, but then as things get worse, society ostracizes the villain's in the end.  Is their a different approach they could take to wanting people to listen, but at the same time, commit some types of crimes cause they are the villains after all?

I would like the crimes to be kidnapping though, since there is a main kidnapping plot in the story, for it to go the way I want it to go.  So can I still have them make their point to society through kidnapping and threats of some kind?  In order for the story to go the way I want though, I would like to create some empathy with the reader?  They don't have to murder or rape per say, but can they kidnap, and show it off to the world, to make their point?  As long as I can have a kidnapping plot at the center of it, but still create empathy, then it should work.


----------



## InstituteMan (Jan 12, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  Basically for my story I want society to be changed at first, but then as things get worse, society ostracizes the villain's in the end.  Is their a different approach they could take to wanting people to listen, but at the same time, commit some types of crimes cause they are the villains after all?
> 
> I would like the crimes to be kidnapping though, since there is a main kidnapping plot in the story, for it to go the way I want it to go.  So can I still have them make their point to society through kidnapping and threats of some kind?  In order for the story to go the way I want though, I would like to create some empathy with the reader?  They don't have to murder or rape per say, but can they kidnap, and show it off to the world, to make their point?  As long as I can have a kidnapping plot at the center of it, but still create empathy, then it should work.



If you want a kidnapping to be received somewhat well by society, there are a couple of options I can think of. Your villains could kidnap someone who was generally despised, so that people figured the victim was getting his or her just desserts. Another option would be to have the victim be treated exceptionally _well _on the videos you describe, sort of the "we had to do something bad to get your attention, but now that we have your attention we will show you that we're nice" approach.


----------



## ironpony (Jan 12, 2016)

I thought of the second approach as well, as long as it will work, since people tend to listen to threats and harming people, rather than being nice.  I mean I don't want to sound bad by using this as an example, but in most wars, where one group of people have invaded another, and treat that group as inferior, the inferior group almost never gets better treatment, if they play nice.   That is just an example.

As for kidnapping someone that is despised, it will have to be well known people like celebrities, but celebrities are harder to go after, because once the villains' M.O. is figured out, the celebrities will be able to afford security and bodyguards, etc.

In the ending of my story though, I want the villains' supporters to turn against them once things go to far, and the protagonist characters, who are the victims, form an angry lynch mob, go after the villains and kill them.  Thereby making the villains wish to have better recognition, becomes their own demise, if that makes sense.

It's kind of like how Bonnie and Clyde for example, had a lot of fans and supporters for what they did, but as soon as they killed a cop, people turned against them and the hate was on.

Can I still do something like that, if this group is going to be playing nice, and the victims are not so much victims as a result?

Also, one of the members of the group rapes the main character, but does not tell the others, and the main character wants revenge along with the other victims in the end.  Can I still have this rape happen, if the gang is more 'nice' in their kidnappings?

Part of the plot also involves the gang recruiting a new member.  They want the new member to perform a 'blood in', which is a gang and police term used to describe that you have to spill the blood of another person in order to become a member of the gang.  Now in they are going to be nicer kidnappers, the new recruit does not have to perform a blood in, but I want the gang to make him do something that morally haunts him and causes him to grow a conscience and want to get out, and stop the gang later.

If they are going to treat their victims more nicely, what can the gang get the new recruit to do, that will morally haunt him?

So if I write the whole story with this new approach that the gang treats their victims better, can I still have the angry lynch mob come after them in the end, with the MC being raped by them and wanting revenge?

And can I still have the new recruit being morally haunted by the test he had to do to get in, that he was not expecting?


----------

