# How would an alibi legally work in court in this case?



## ironpony (Sep 7, 2016)

Basically for my story, which is a thriller set in modern times, a gang of villains are recruiting a new member, and they give him a 'blood in', which is a term used for when a gang tests a new recruit, by having him/her spill the blood of another person, or at least see if they will do it.

The gang in my story, wants to make sure that the new recruit is not be an undercover cop.  So they put him through the blood in, but they do not want to put the man in a situation where he has to harm a real hostage.  The reason is, is because if he is an undercover cop, and there could be other cops nearby, they would be up on kidnapping related charges, if they had a real hostage for the new recruit to harm.

So the gang decides to use one of it's own members, posing as a hostage, for the new recruit to pull the trigger on.  But the gun will not be loaded. It will be loaded with a dummy round, that won't fire, in case the new recruit is an undercover cop.  That way, if he is, and he tries to bust the gang, the hostage, will not testify against them, if she is rescued.

During the blood in test though, a real cop is patrolling the streets, and he gets a glimpse of two of the gang members search the new recruit for weapons and a wire.  He sees that the new recruits are hiding their faces with sunglasses and hats, as well, to hide their faces from the new recruit.

After seeing that the new recruit is clean, the gang takes him to the place where they are holding one of their own members, who is posing as a hostage for the new recruit.

The cop follows them, sneaks around to see what is going on, and spots the blood in, in progress.  He stops it and manages to arrest one of the gang members, and rescue the fake hostage, thinking she is real.  The other gang members as well as the new recruit, escape as the cop rescues her and arrests the one.

Now the fake hostage and the one gang member who was caught, now have to come up with some sort of alibi to get out of the situation.  They have to come up with a lie to make it appear to the court that they are two innocent people and that no crime happened.  They can say that they were roleplaying, and that no one was actually going to shoot anyone, and it was all acting among themselves.

However, if they do this, they need a reason as to why the other gang members resisted arrest, and fled with the gun.

They could say that they do not know who the others really are, and they met them while drunk.  But if you meet a group of people at a party for example the party host will still know who they are.  And if you say you met them in a night club, well there are security cameras, and ID computer records of people who go into the night club.

So because of this, how would they come up with an alibi that would legally work?  Or is it better for the witness to take the fifth?  But if she does that, the cop witness, will still testify that he saw the defendant in collusion with the other kidnappers.  So is more needed to exonerate the defendant?  Basically I want the defendant to be exonerated.  But how could a defendant and a witness, who is secretly on his side, do this, in a way that would legally work?


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## patskywriter (Sep 7, 2016)

Sounds like you're at a really fun part of the story. Why spoil it by asking our opinions on something that can go in any direction? I say, have fun with it and then let us read the results (that is, if you can ever trust yourself enough to finish it).


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## ironpony (Sep 7, 2016)

Okay thanks.  Yes I don't exactly want others to write it for me.  I see your point.  But I am wondering how an alibi can legally work at all nowadays when there is a camera in almost every public place now, and you cannot just keep a meet with a group of strangers like that secret from the police anymore it seems.


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## patskywriter (Sep 7, 2016)

Well, not all cameras are working cameras—and some people are aware of it (but want to keep it a secret if it's at their place of business). Keep that in mind. Maybe you can have some fun with it.


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## ironpony (Sep 7, 2016)

Yeah maybe.  Is there any reason why a night club wouldn't have cameras nowadays?  Can a night club owner just say, I don't want them, and there is no law that says he has to have them?


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## LeeC (Sep 7, 2016)

You've stated more than once that you'd put up your writing for critique, yet you wait a little bit then come back with the same old circular discussion approach. Helloooooo


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## ironpony (Sep 7, 2016)

I want to put it up for critique it's just I have these gaps in the plot I feel like I need to fill.  Mostly gaps that are legal system related and how to get around it.  Cause if I put it up for critic with missing gaps, then readers will not be able to get from one point to the next, in certain parts of the story.


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## Ultraroel (Sep 8, 2016)

Dude.. stop it. 
Just stop it. Stop asking these questions. You can find any reason for the night club NOT to have these things.
Doesn't care about legislation, failure of the camera's. Deleted footage under pressure.. FIND A WAY. MAKE IT WORK.

Done with this till you post it for critique instead of circle jerking around


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## Plasticweld (Sep 8, 2016)

540 posts and he has never shared a single story... That is a plot hole and a circle jerk!  He has also never thanked a single member here for the advice he has received! Call that what you will.


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## PiP (Sep 8, 2016)

ironpony said:


> I want to put it up for critique it's just I have these gaps in the plot I feel like I need to fill.  Mostly gaps that are legal system related and how to get around it.  Cause if I put it up for critic with missing gaps, then readers will not be able to get from one point to the next, in certain parts of the story.



I am sure we will manage. Just GO for it!


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## ironpony (Sep 8, 2016)

Okay thanks.  I am not sure how to write the legal parts.  I showed it to a lawyer, and he said that the problem I have is that I have written the story into corners, cause it's too overly simplistic, without addressing the complications in the law, that would really happen.  If that is the case, I do not know how to make it less overly simplistic, since I am not a legal expert.  So I am not sure how to proceed in filling the gaps then, if they need to be more complicated.


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## PiP (Sep 10, 2016)

Well, if you refuse to share any of the story for our experienced writers to review, looks like you are up the creek without the proverbial paddle. Until you share your story for critique I suggest you stop asking questions.


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## ironpony (Sep 10, 2016)

Okay thanks.  I am sorry if I haven't shown enough gratitude on here for all the advice.  I really am greatful.  I applied a lot of the advice given on here, without really making it clear, and the advice has helped my story, and it's even better now, at least it I think it is, from what I can tell.

It's just that some of the advice I took, even though has helped the story become better in some areas, in other areas, more minor characters are written into a corner, and some subplots are brought to a halt, because of it, and I am not sure what to do about it.  I feel that even though a lot the advice has helped, there are now new problems I am stuck on.  Since the advice came from other people, I do not know how to solve the new plot problems that arose, cause I have no idea what other people had in mind when they were suggesting the advice.  So I feel I am stuck cause I am trying to solve a problem, that someone else who came up with the idea, probably knows the answer to, and not sure what it was...

But I am very thankful and the story is a lot better now still.  I just need to work out the gaps.


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## PiP (Sep 10, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  I am sorry if I haven't shown enough gratitude on here for all the advice.  I really am greatful.  I applied a lot of the advice given on here, without really making it clear, and the advice has helped my story, and it's even better now, at least it I think it is, from what I can tell.
> 
> It's just that some of the advice I took, even though has helped the story become better in some areas, in other areas, more minor characters are written into a corner, and some subplots are brought to a halt, because of it, and I am not sure what to do about it.  I feel that even though a lot the advice has helped, there are now new problems I am stuck on.  Since the advice came from other people, I do not know how to solve the new plot problems that arose, cause I have no idea what other people had in mind when they were suggesting the advice.  So I feel I am stuck cause I am trying to solve a problem, that someone else who came up with the idea, probably knows the answer to, and not sure what it was...
> 
> But I am very thankful and the story is a lot better now still.  I just need to work out the gaps.



Okay, enough already; you are talking yourself around in ever decreasing circles. 

Have you actually written anything? No, I thought not otherwise you would share what you have written. Go away, write your story, share some of your work then we can see if we can help you.


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## LeeC (Sep 10, 2016)

Hey there ironpony, I was hoping I didn't miss you. I've just finished reading your manuscript and wanted to pass along my thoughts. Last time you were on you stayed connected long enough for my ?bot (not supposed to be using since I sold it to the NSA, but you left me no choice) to sort through all your manuscripts for the one you've been talking about.  Your sure are prolific 

Anyway, I didn't find any glaring plot holes, but it was difficult to read because it had a lot of eddies that stretched the imagination, distracting the reader from the flow of the story. The one glaring problem I found with believability was when the rogue cop was making himself a BLT wrap. He laid the bacon strips on the tortilla in the same direction as he rolled it. It's very difficult to believe anyone could be that dense, creating a wad of bacon in the center of their wrap. 

I hope this little bit helps. Others might be able to help you more, if you put the piece up for critique.



[spoiler2=staff eyes only]This is a writer's site [/spoiler2]


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## ironpony (Sep 11, 2016)

Okay thanks. Well basically if I write the story out, I am afraid I will fall into the trap, of what John Truby talks about in his book, and also in the video: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VNJ1mzFHNA 

In the video he talks about how most writers will make the mistake of writing out a first draft, without perfecting the scene list first, and how writers should make sure they have the best scene list they can get, with most of the story problems fixed, before writing out an actual draft. 

He said that once you write out the first draft, it is very difficult for the writer to break it apart after, and find the structural problems, unless they solve the problems in the scene list, prior to writing out the first draft. 

So that is why I am very conscientious about having the best scene list, I can get first, and figure I should work on those problems, before writing out any drafts in full completion.  Truby also talks about how when it comes to asking about problems in the story, it's better to look at a scene list, rather than the entire draft, cause if you look at a draft, then you just have extra dialogue to sift through, instead of just seeing the bare bones of the story, for what they are.  Do you think that's true?


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## Phil Istine (Sep 11, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  Well I will put the thing up.  I just find it a lot to ask for people to read a whole script.  But I will finish it and do it.



Ironpony,  maybe just try a chapter at a time on here - or less if they are long?  If several are needed to check on plot holes, I'm sure someone will pick up on it.
Tell you what, in November there is something called NaNoWriMo - where participants attempt to write 50,000 words in a month.  Why not take part, let it flow, and take care of gremlins during December?  It may help to cure you of what I perceive to be over-analysis, where you appear to be thinking yourself into a swirling plot hole.


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## PiP (Sep 11, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  Well I will put the thing up.  I just find it a lot to ask for people to read a whole script.  But I will finish it and do it.



You don't need to post the whole script just the part you are having a problem with. Post it to the Workshop so it's not visible to search engines.


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## TheWonderingNovice (Sep 11, 2016)

You should speak to a cop first thing. Theres a lot that goes into undercover operations. That cop will always be monitored, safety of the cop is one of their main concerns as well as trying to operate with in legal limits. 

Second, you HAVE to talk to a defense attorney. The defendant doesn't have to speak, it is their right. The only reason they'd be exonerated is of the State attorney does a crap job, key evidence was collected illegally and wasn't admissible in court, or if cop messed up some how. But that is from what i know. 

For your question, you need to speak to a criminal defense lawyer.


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## PiP (Sep 11, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks. Well basically if I write the story out, I am afraid I will fall into the trap,



There are any number of traps you can fall into. So basically you've written nada and all these continual questions are in the name of procrastination, yes? Write the bones of your story. Get in down on paper. If not you are wasting your time and other member's.  You ask the same questions across several different writing sites. My advice for free: just write and stop finding excuses not to.


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## ironpony (Sep 11, 2016)

Okay thanks.  I have talked to cops and lawyers, but I find a lot of the advice, to not be as helpful for my story.  Like for example, I talked to two lawyers and they both said that it is unrealistic that the defendant would be exonerated, because no judge or jury is going to believe a defendant is innocent, if he chose to remain silent and not defend his innocence the entire time. Even if there is evidence to suggest the defendant's innocence, the fact that he never talked the entire time, makes the evidence not believable, and the defendant would be charged with obstruction of justice on top of his other charges, for not talking, if he was innocent in the first place.  But yet at the same time, a lawyer cannot put his client on the stand or advise him to talk to police, out of fear that it will make things worse.  So it's a paradox then, and they said there is no getting off for the defendant in my story.

Also, the police said they do not know what advice to give me cause there is no way a story like mine, could ever happen in real life.  So it wasn't very helpful for most of it.

When you say post a chapter, should I still start from the beginning?  Like if part of the plot hole is in the first half of the second act for example, should I still post the first act, as well as the second half?  Cause if I post one chapter, without any chapters before, could readers become lost?


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## LeeC (Sep 11, 2016)

Whoa, please tell us who those two lawyers were. I'm curious because they seem to have a distorted view of courtroom proceedings. Makes me wonder if they were really lawyers, or just vacant heads making stuff up as they go? In reality a defense lawyer in gaging a situation would advise a client  against testifying for various reasons, such as they didn't feel the client could stand up to how a prosecutor might twist their words. Either they weren't real lawyers you talked to, or you threw this out on the fly to continue a circular discussion. If the latter, you might try being a bit more imaginative and resourceful  

As to asking about what writing you should post, I hear an echo. You've used that distracting tactic more than once already, and it's getting stale. 

To me, if you're serious about writing, you'd have already posted an extract, no ifs, ands, or buts. If you actually question everything to the nth degree, then you must be rail thin in deciding what to eat ;-)


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## ironpony (Sep 12, 2016)

Okay thanks.  They were two lawyers that I met who were willing to give me some of their time to talk about it, through emails.  However, they did not say they would put their client on the stand.  They just said that, the client keeping quiet, means the judge not believing he is innocent, and therefore, having to go to trial, which I didn't want for my story, cause trial takes too long, and the rest of the plot, going on outside, has to be put on hold therefore.

I want to finish it, I just have writers block on the plot gaps, I am trying to patch up.


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## Sam (Sep 12, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  I have talked to cops and lawyers, but I find a lot of the advice, to not be as helpful for my story.  Like for example, I talked to two lawyers and they both said that it is unrealistic that the defendant would be exonerated, because no judge or jury is going to believe a defendant is innocent, if he chose to remain silent and not defend his innocence the entire time. Even if there is evidence to suggest the defendant's innocence, the fact that he never talked the entire time, makes the evidence not believable, and the defendant would be charged with obstruction of justice on top of his other charges, for not talking, if he was innocent in the first place.  But yet at the same time, a lawyer cannot put his client on the stand or advise him to talk to police, out of fear that it will make things worse.  So it's a paradox then, and they said there is no getting off for the defendant in my story.



I think your lawyers have been watching too much television. 

In a situation involving the police, an ordinary civilian should _never _waive their right to remain silent. Choosing to remain silent does not make a person guilty, no matter how much television police would like to insist that it does. Remaining silent is in fact _the _smartest thing a person can do if they're being arrested. The simple reality is that most cases are settled before an attorney or lawyer is summoned, because ordinary civilians waive their right to remain silent and answer the police officer's questions. 

You have the right to remain silent, you have the right to representation, and you have the right to not be compelled to be a witness against yourself in a criminal case. Availing of any or all of these things does not make you guilty.  It is not the defendant's job to speak to the veracity of his innocence. That's what lawyers are for. 

And when it plainly states, in the little spiel that officers give people, that "anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law", why in the hell would _anyone _waive their right to remain silent?


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## Ultraroel (Sep 12, 2016)

POST SOMETHING FIRST-

Stop talking to people who do not provide sufficient feedback, then to ask questions here without posting. 
Are you even writing things or do you like to troll people around..


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## ironpony (Sep 12, 2016)

I want to post it, I just stuck on certain sections that I have no idea how to fill.  I feel that I need to train my brain into coming up with a more flexible plot.  Basically the plot I have is like a building of jenga blocks, where if you pull one piece out, the rest come tumbling down.  People say the story doesn't work, and they pull a piece out, but in their advice, they will tell me only how to put a few pieces back in... and then they say the story will work.  But I'm thinking, well what about these pieces here, you forgot about?   What's suppose to happen with those characters and plot turns?  They say the story works now, but I don't know how I am just suppose to leave those remaining pieces up in the air, without conclusion.

Therefore, I feel I have to come up with a plot that is not so jenga like, so I can be more flexible to such wildly changing suggestions.  But the more flexible you make a story, the more repetitive it can become, if that makes sense.  So some of the suggestions that were made by others are good, and I think they improve the story it seems, but I do not know what to do with the missing pieces in the suggestions, and that's keeping me from finishing it.  I mean if I posted a whole story with missing pieces, I assume that they will be harder to fix within a whole plot, rather than trying to fix them prior to finishing the rest of the plot.


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## ironpony (Sep 18, 2016)

However, I have been told that every scenario I have tried to come up with my plot doesn't work.  So if I write out all those scenarios in a whole story, how will that change any opinions?   You are just seeing the same thing written out more, so how will it help?


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## Sam (Sep 18, 2016)

_Who _told you these things, and what makes them the expert on whether or not everything in your story will work? 

Ironpony, _you _write what _you _want to write. You finish it. You get other people to read it when it's finished. Then, if every person who reads it tells you that "every scenario doesn't work", _then_ you have a problem. 

I don't know who you're talking to right now, but they seem to keep telling you that everything is wrong, everything won't work, and those are not the sort of people you should be listening to. If everything is always negative, you need to get away from them. I've critiqued a lot of work in my time and there has never been a piece that I couldn't find something good to focus on. I have never encountered a piece of work that was entirely devoid of any semblance of potential. 

If all these people focus on is negatives, then all they are is naysayers.


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## Bishop (Sep 19, 2016)

Sam said:


> If all these people focus on is negatives, then *all they are is naysayers*.



Or spouses.


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## aj47 (Sep 19, 2016)

Sam said:


> I've critiqued a lot of work in my time and there has never been a piece that I couldn't find something good to focus on. I have never encountered a piece of work that was entirely devoid of any semblance of potential.



This.  

When I wrote my essay on how to critique (found in WIFS 23) I made a point of that. It is imperative that critique point out what the author is doing correctly so that this foundation can be built into the work the author intends.

If something is 100% negative, that's not critique--that's hatred.


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