# Need Some Advice on an Issue That Won't Die.



## MzSnowleopard (Sep 22, 2014)

Everyone knows the process of building characters- creating them, defining them, etc in the effort to make them our own. Still, some people offer suggestions on how to improve 'our people'.

Now, I've spoken to a number of people about aspect of the 'world' I'm building- along with some of the main characters. Ironically, the one that is causing the most contention is one of those whose abilities I've not discussed. Why? I haven't been able to because a certain number of people won't let me get passed "their idea' interruption. 

I have put my foot down several times and in several manners with these same 3 people- and yet still, they persist. I don't get it! They have no idea what I have planned, they don't seem to care, they just keep pushing their idea on me. My problem with their idea is that I think that it's cliche. 

Their idea "wouldn't it be cool if the Gemini character was actually twins?"

now, granted my concept is a book- not a show, still, I have seen a number of shows that did this- maybe it's because I didn't like the way they were done (save for Captain Power's Gemini and Counting) that I just don't like the concept. I don't get this persistence that Gemini must be twins.

Now, my idea for this character comes from the Marvel RPG concepts. I use it with another character I have in a Lit-RP I manage. They call it Psionic duplication- the character is able to create a duplicate of themselves much like Multiplicity - only limited to 1 copy. I have managed to come up with some creative scenarios for my original character who does this- so I'm sold on doing this from Gemini in my series. 

As I said, I've put my foot down- even resorting to a blog post about 'characters set in concrete'. I assumed my 'friends had come to terms with my not using their idea- recently though, one of them brought it up again. I just looked at him. I wish I'd had a mirror to see my expression because he backed down. 

Today, another came at me about it- I said, 'then it would no longer be my character, it'd be yours' she didn't understand me. So now, I'm resolved to finding some snappy comebacks for these jokers. My friends understand sarcasm so they might finally get it.

So, if you have any, just based on this post, please feel free to share. Cause my arsenal of snappy comeback is an empty bag.

BTW- these yahoos are NOT writers.


----------



## aj47 (Sep 22, 2014)

"That's a *lovely* idea.  Why don't you write it?"


----------



## dale (Sep 22, 2014)

MzSnowleopard said:


> I have put my foot down



lesson #1: don't do that. we as writers can never keep our feet planted anywhere.


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Sep 22, 2014)

dale said:


> lesson #1: don't do that. we as writers can never keep our feet planted anywhere.



Very good point. Plus 1^


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Sep 22, 2014)

Snow, it's very simple. All you have to tell them is....

wait for it....

"I'm not going to go in that direction with the character"

If they don't take the hint, then they aren't very bright and you can rightfully ignore them.


----------



## altoid967 (Sep 22, 2014)

Grab something sharp and pointy and threaten to make a "gemini" of their tender bits if they don't can it.


----------



## voltigeur (Sep 22, 2014)

I offer this constructively. I’m writing it as an attention getter, so don’t take offense at my directness.



> Need Some Advice on an Issue That Won't Die.



I'm going to call you out on this one. It won't die cause you won't kill it. YOU are the only reason this is an issue. 

This is your story period. Win lose or draw it is on you! Be nice be polite but you have these people way too involved in your story. If you invited them this far into your story you screwed up. 

Sometimes you have to walk away from “help” no matter how well meaning. In my critique group for example there is a lady that writes YA Fantasy. Her stories only have 4 to 6 characters. She doesn’t understand a story that has literally 20 or 30 people running around in a scene. 

Everyone else gets what I’m doing so I listen to her if there is a story structure issue or character motivation issue, I just don’t get wound up when she says I have a POV issue. 

Anyway don’t let anyone tell you how to write your story.


----------



## Deleted member 49710 (Sep 23, 2014)

Just to clarify, when you say "the Gemini character", do you mean that you call the character Gemini? by that name? Because in the zodiac and in Greek mythology, the Gemini refers to a pair of twins. Might be why the suggestion is recurring. So if you want to discourage that association, maybe search for a different and more original name.

Beyond that--I dunno, I never share anything until it's at least somewhat done. If people tried to tell me to do something with a character I didn't want, I'd probably just say thanks and then forget it entirely.


----------



## MzSnowleopard (Sep 23, 2014)

astroannie said:


> "That's a *lovely* idea. Why don't you write it?"


 
Yup, I've used something similar, they said "but, you're the writer."
To which I rolled my eyes.



dale said:


> lesson #1: don't do that. we as writers can never keep our feet planted anywhere.


 
I had thought of putting it some place in reference to their body parts but it would work with only 1 of them.



T.S.Bowman said:


> Snow, it's very simple. All you have to tell them is....
> 
> wait for it....
> 
> ...


 
I'm about to do with them what I did with K and Z because I am so done with people who only cause stress.



altoid967 said:


> Grab something sharp and pointy and threaten to make a "gemini" of their tender bits if they don't can it.


 
I have a mini baseball ball- about maybe a foot or foot and a half long. It would work on a low swing. 



voltigeur said:


> I offer this constructively. I’m writing it as an attention getter, so don’t take offense at my directness.
> 
> I'm going to call you out on this one. It won't die cause you won't kill it. YOU are the only reason this is an issue.
> 
> ...


 
Yes, I know I screw up, and I'm trying to rectify the situation. I do just fine with my writing until people like the 3 yahoos, K or Z show up. Then it's drama central. At some point these people decided that my willingness to discuss my work was "an invitation to help" That wasn't my intention.



lasm said:


> Just to clarify, when you say "the Gemini character", do you mean that you call the character Gemini? by that name? Because in the zodiac and in Greek mythology, the Gemini refers to a pair of twins. Might be why the suggestion is recurring. So if you want to discourage that association, maybe search for a different and more original name.
> 
> Beyond that--I dunno, I never share anything until it's at least somewhat done. If people tried to tell me to do something with a character I didn't want, I'd probably just say thanks and then forget it entirely.


 
Yes, the character's code name is the Zodiac - each of the 12 main character in the series have abilities based on their zodiac signs. I agree that it's probably where these yahoos got the idea from for the twins. For me though, it's cliché, it's typical and I wanted to do something different.

Thanks for the advice everyone, I'm going to take it in and see what I can do with it. One thing's for certain, the 3 yahoos are done. I don't need friends like them.


----------



## Jeko (Sep 23, 2014)

You want comebacks to people who don't know anything about what you're writing or how you want to write it?

Turn off the computer and write. The best comeback is no comeback at all; people who only want you to write their ideas are not worth your time. Write what you want to write and ignore people who don't want you to.


----------



## talmaflower (Sep 23, 2014)

People come with an 'ignore' button in real life, too.


----------



## Terry D (Sep 23, 2014)

I never discuss a WIP beyond a generic, "It's a story about a serial killer stalking a woman." Without the context of the narrative, details will sound silly and disjointed. You don't need their affirmation, or at least you shouldn't. Under no circumstances would I ever discuss details of a WIP with a non-writer. A layman can be a good beta reader for an overall impression of the completed work, but not in process.

Just my tuppence.


----------



## stevesh (Sep 23, 2014)

Terry D said:


> I never discuss a WIP beyond a generic, "It's a story about a serial killer stalking a woman."



Me, neither. The people who MzSnowleopard is struggling with are either hopeless narcissists (epidemic these days) or mean well but don't understand the writing process. Either way, I would just smile and thank them for the input, but ignore it.


----------



## Bishop (Sep 23, 2014)

Of all my interactions with beta readers and people I bounce ideas off of, no one tries to sell me on 'their' ideas. Sometimes they'll say, "Oh, I love this guy, I want more of him!" or "She's really bogging the story down here, trim this back," but never "Yeah, this character should have this this and this, and you need to make it more like this." Your friends sound like they have no creative outlet of their own and are trying to vicariously push themselves into yours. They want to be able to point at what you did and say--like the child presenting dinner that he made alongside mom--"And I helped!"


----------



## MzSnowleopard (Sep 23, 2014)

Wow Bishop, you're dead on. Thanks for great great advice, suggestions, and input. I feel ready to deal with the 3 yahoos now.


----------



## aj47 (Sep 23, 2014)

MzSnowleopard said:


> Yup, I've used something similar, they said "but, you're the writer."



The response to that is, "...but I can't write EVERYTHING!  There isn't time!"


----------



## Nickleby (Sep 23, 2014)

My advice is to ignore their suggestion when you don't wish to incorporate it. When they see the rewrite without their change, they should get the message. It's your story, you're doing the writing, you have the final say.

Getting aggravated with your friends is counterproductive. To them, their suggestion is logical, sound, and appropriate. Your rejection of it is also logical, sound, and appropriate. This is fiction we're talking about, not physics. Arguing won't change the rate of acceleration of a falling body. Fiction is full of endlessly mutable ideas, which is why we love it so much.


----------



## Seedy M. (Sep 23, 2014)

I tell them, "Damn it! Now I _can't_ use that because it would be plagiarizing _your_ idea!"  Then the old one finger salute.


----------



## dale (Sep 23, 2014)

Nickleby said:


> My advice is to ignore their suggestion when you don't wish to incorporate it. When they see the rewrite without their change, they should get the message. It's your story, you're doing the writing, you have the final say.
> 
> Getting aggravated with your friends is counterproductive. To them, their suggestion is logical, sound, and appropriate. Your rejection of it is also logical, sound, and appropriate. This is fiction we're talking about, not physics. Arguing won't change the rate of acceleration of a falling body. Fiction is full of endlessly mutable ideas, which is why we love it so much.



yeah. friends always have hare-brained ideas about what you should write. i've had a couple friends tell me "man, you should write a book about our life, dude. all the shit we been thru." i'll just laugh. i mean...who the hell would want to read about a bunch of idiot drunks who accidentally set themselves on fire every now and again playing with gasoline?


----------



## Poet of Gore (Sep 23, 2014)

thought this was gonna be a vampire thread. i brought steaks and all.


----------



## Plasticweld (Sep 23, 2014)

dale said:


> yeah. friends always have hare-brained ideas about what you should write. i've had a couple friends tell me "man, you should write a book about our life, dude. all the shit we been thru." i'll just laugh. i mean...who the hell would want to read about a bunch of idiot drunks who accidentally set themselves on fire every now and again playing with gasoline?



You and I must have some of the same friends.


----------



## Mutimir (Sep 23, 2014)

I find it kind of petty to get upset when your friends are reading your work and giving you feedback. Honestly, if you can't take it don't give it to them to read. It's not fair to them.


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Sep 23, 2014)

Mutimir said:


> I find it kind of petty to get upset when your friends are reading your work and giving you feedback. Honestly, if you can't take it don't give it to them to read. It's not fair to them.



From what I understand, she has been MORE than appreciative of their help.

The issue is that, rather than give their feedback and be done, which is what most people do, these particular people are VERY insistent on having her change her entire novel to "fix" a certain character. 

The idea that those folk feel they have a right, even after she has repeatedly told them that she is not interested in going in the direction they want her to, is not being "petty." 

It is a real issue.

One thing that I totally agree with, Snow, is that you need to stop being so willing to show your work to people who aren't writers. It hasn't been working out very well. I know, I know. I wasn't a writer when you showed me some of your work. But then again, I guess I was still a writer in my heart even though I hadn't done it in quite a while.

If you want to show someone your work, put it up here in the Workshop and get some _helpful_ advice. I can almost guarantee you won't have a single person tell you what to do with your characters. Well..other than adding more depth if needed of fixing inconsistencies that may be found. But as far as someone suggesting that you make a character into something they aren't...it won't happen here.


----------



## ActionHeroTrainee (Sep 24, 2014)

I can't add to the advice you've already been given on how to handle people who give advice you don't like, but I am curious.  If Gemini is based on the Zodiac sign, then what are his or her traits/superpowers/etc?  

I was thinking it might be interesting if Gemini had multiple personality disorder ... one is strictly by the book squeeky clean, while the other version is more than willing to "get his hands dirty" if the ends justifies the means.  It could make for some interesting encounters, his allies not knowing which version they're dealing with when he arrives on scene.   And maybe each version of the character has a _different_ superpower.


----------



## Kyle R (Sep 24, 2014)

MzSnowleopard said:


> Everyone knows the process of building characters- creating them, defining them, etc in the effort to make them our own. Still, some people offer suggestions on how to improve 'our people'.
> 
> Now, I've spoken to a number of people about aspect of the 'world' I'm building- along with some of the main characters. Ironically, the one that is causing the most contention is one of those whose abilities I've not discussed. Why? I haven't been able to because a certain number of people won't let me get passed "their idea' interruption.
> 
> I have put my foot down several times and in several manners with these same 3 people- and yet still, they persist. I don't get it! They have no idea what I have planned, they don't seem to care, they just keep pushing their idea on me.



Cut them out of the process. They've lost the privilege of discussing your work with you.


----------



## MzSnowleopard (Sep 24, 2014)

ActionHeroTrainee said:


> I can't add to the advice you've already been given on how to handle people who give advice you don't like, but I am curious. If Gemini is based on the Zodiac sign, then what are his or her traits/superpowers/etc?
> 
> I was thinking it might be interesting if Gemini had multiple personality disorder ... one is strictly by the book squeaky clean, while the other version is more than willing to "get his hands dirty" if the ends justifies the means. It could make for some interesting encounters, his allies not knowing which version they're dealing with when he arrives on scene. And maybe each version of the character has a _different_ superpower.



my idea for this character comes from the Marvel RPG concepts. I use it with another character I have in a Lit-RP I manage. Marvel calls it Psionic duplication- the character is able to create a duplicate of themselves much like Multiplicity - only limited to 1 copy. I have managed to come up with some creative scenarios for my original character who does this- so I'm sold on doing this from Gemini in my series. 



Mutimir said:


> I find it kind of petty to get upset when your friends are reading your work and giving you feedback. Honestly, if you can't take it don't give it to them to read. It's not fair to them.



First, and let me be direct, yes, I have spoken with people about my work- that's not the same as having actually shown them the work I have not once given these yahoos a piece this series or any other, to read / review. There was one time that they asked me what types of stories I wrote and it took off from there. 

I do have a few finished pieces of work online but I couldn't say if they've read these or not. 

Secondly, they are the ones who habitually bring up the subject. They are the ones who cut-off and inject their ideas. They are the ones who persist. They are the culprits in this, not me.

As for who I've shown my novels too, this is an extremely small number. And T.S., you know most of them. They are my BETA team and they are awesome. There's one editor and the rest are readers. All of them are writers.

To sum-up this issue, I think that Bishop said it best: 



> They want to be able to point at what you did and say--like the child presenting dinner that he made alongside mom--"And I helped!"


----------



## Morkonan (Sep 24, 2014)

MzSnowleopard said:


> ...BTW- these yahoos are NOT writers.



Writing is a solitary occupation. Why are you worrying about what these people think *you* should write? Holy crap, if I told my friends what I was writing about and asked for their substantive input, they'd probably give me fifty-eleven different directions to go in, none of which would have anything to do with the story that I wanted to write...

Writing a story is not a "group project." If you try to make it one, you're going to run into serious issues. What you should do is just sit down and _write your story._ There is no reason why anyone else need be involved. If you encounter an actual "writing difficulty" then it's perfectly fine to discuss such issues. Discussing such issues with other writers is often better than reaching out to "normal people."  But, use what resources you have, just keep in mind that each type has its own particular perspective.

You have a story in mind that you want to write, right? OK, take Astroannie's advice - "That's a *lovely* idea.  Why don't you write it?"

Do that. That's what writers do. They don't hold court and write stories based on the opinion of others. In very few cases, seasoned authors might team up to write a story, but they've already paid their dues and have learned how to write. It makes sense that they might enjoy collaborating. But, it's not necessary. Stories have been written by single authors for a very long time.


----------



## MzSnowleopard (Sep 24, 2014)

Morkonan said:


> Writing a story is not a "group project." If you try to make it one, you're going to run into serious issues.


 
Believe me, I've already learned this lesson- the hard way. Rewriting to delete those contributions has been part of the delay. Aside from Lit-RP / RPG writing, I no longer recommend doing this.

Zodiac is a mess of chaos and I want to preserve as much of my own work in it, as possible. This Prologue that I've been focused on is just the beginning.


----------



## Morkonan (Sep 24, 2014)

MzSnowleopard said:


> Believe me, I've already learned this lesson- the hard way....



Then, you've answered your original post, yes?  Of course, I don't mean that such things don't need to be given voice before the burn a hole in our guts... I just mean that if you have learned this lesson, then you can be confident in the fact that you do not need to agonize over the opinions of others regarding "substantive" contributions to your writing. Sure, sometimes one can get a wonderful idea in such discussions. But, it's up to you, the writer, to give that idea life, no matter where it comes from.

Honestly, I couldn't conceive of myself being in a writing situation in which several people were trying to "cram" ideas down my throat concerning a my project. If they were paying me to write something for them, that's a different sort of task. But, if it's _my_ project? Well, then, it's _mine_ and that sort of thing will not tolerate any cramming from anyone, no matter how well-intentioned.


----------



## MzSnowleopard (Sep 24, 2014)

I get your point, I didn't see them in the same "group / type " of problems. I saw them as 2 different problems. The one was clear and easy to resolve- each writer had brought their own plans and agenda to the project- and just reading what was written- it was clear that not one of them had any interest in my own plans and agenda (the creator of the series). There wasn't much tying me to these people so their 'online friendships' were easy to sever. 

The 3 yahoos were different in that I knew them offline, from school, and saw them on a social basis. They were fun to hang out with. And there aren't many people in my area who like the same genres that I do- plus certain / specific shows. And we all agree on one thing- Bob talks too much- and won't shut up during the programs. 

There is one other thing that we all do agree on. And this is all we've talked about on this character: Sagittarius is an archer. 
She's a lot more than that but this is all we've talked about with her. For that matter, even I don't know what her exact powers are- YET. I've written a few scenes for her where she appears in other novels but that's about it- aside from a general description.


----------



## bazz cargo (Sep 24, 2014)

Hi Snowy,
there _is_ a way they can help, write them into the story and then kill them in the most horrible way possible.

_You _know you want to.


----------



## Morkonan (Sep 24, 2014)

bazz cargo said:


> Hi Snowy,
> there _is_ a way they can help, write them into the story and then kill them in the most horrible way possible.
> 
> _You _know you want to.



Something involving lubricant, kerosene, chains, and a 1957 Studebaker... and a pigeon. Yeah, a pigeon. There's something wrong with them.. they're always looking at you. Those red eyes. Dull, life-less eyes. Like a doll's eyes...


----------



## MzSnowleopard (Sep 24, 2014)

Oh jeez.... ROFL ..... terrible, just terrible....

Seriously though, I do believe in the phrase- "a writers best revenge is the written word."


----------



## T.S.Bowman (Sep 24, 2014)

Morkonan said:


> Something involving lubricant, kerosene, chains, and a 1957 Studebaker... and a pigeon. Yeah, a pigeon. There's something wrong with them.. they're always looking at you. Those red eyes. Dull, life-less eyes. Like a doll's eyes...



Hmmm...perhaps "Deadeye" the pigeon could secretly be the terrorist poop bomber that attacks at inopportune times.


----------



## MzSnowleopard (Sep 24, 2014)

Deadeye and his sidekick brother Dooffus - targeting above parks near you.


----------



## ActionHeroTrainee (Sep 25, 2014)

And Cancer's recurring nemesis (nemesises? nemesii?) could be twin brother and sister martial artists named Yin and Yang.


----------



## MzSnowleopard (Sep 25, 2014)

That is hilarious- the irony of your suggestion is that I have plans for the team to face off with their dark / evil counterparts. One thing I'm considering is making them based on the Chinese Zodiac.


----------



## MzSnowleopard (Sep 25, 2014)

Well, have I got an interesting update. It was Grand Central Drama Station too. 

Yahoo #2 showed up last night to tell me she was breaking up with Yahoo # 1. We got into talking about all of the problems with him and his sidekick Yahoo # 3. 

Apparently she has decided that she is sick and disgusted with the pair and has decided to move on. As I told her "I don't blame you." And then we went on to discuss the issue at hand in this thread. She said "that's him being a bully, and he's not going to stop."

I learned that I'm not the only one giving up here, she is cutting ties with 2 people she's known most of her life (neighbor-friends and such). There's a lot of history between them. And it's all because Yahoo # 1 won't 'grow up', he thinks he's being funny, that 'it's just a joke', that his meanness / cruelty isn't hurting anyone. 

As Whoopi Goldberg would say 'he's an assholian and needs to go.' (see my review post on her book)

This Saturday we're going out for drinks both for a good-bye to bad rubbish and my birthday. In the end- when she drops me off, it'll be the end for us as well. She is making a clean break and leaving town and not telling anyone where she's going except her mom. As sad as it is to see an end to a long time 'connection' I think this will be good for her. 

Before she left she did offer up a suggestion on my series that I am seriously considering- hashtags. She gave me 3 links to sites that deal with creating affective hashtags. Now that is something usable!

I do wish her all the best and hope that she doesn't get hook by another yahoo.


----------

