# Success



## David Gordon Burke (Jul 12, 2015)

I'll keep this short.

Bestseller, economic success or literary recognition from your peers?

Which are you stiving for?  

Option #3.  Self satisfaction and achieving personal goals.

David Gordon Burke

PS.  Can you guess what inspired my question?


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## escorial (Jul 12, 2015)

spill the beans man......


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## NYXTaxiDriver (Jul 12, 2015)

I am going for profits... good luck to you hope you find a way to pump your sales.


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## shadowwalker (Jul 12, 2015)

I just don't want to embarrass myself. Anything past that is icing on the cake.


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## LizzAquarian (Jul 12, 2015)

I'm hoping the literary vomit I spew will be eaten by at least one reader beyond my family and friends. The end.


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## Snowflake (Jul 12, 2015)

Best sellers vs economic success... sound the same to me.


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## MamaStrong (Jul 12, 2015)

LizzAquarian said:


> I'm hoping the literary vomit I spew will be eaten by at least one reader beyond my family and friends. The end.



Excellent way to describe my feelings as well.


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## Gavrushka (Jul 13, 2015)

Prior to two years ago, I consider anything I had written unpalatable... My first success was getting beyond that point without self-declaring myself good enough for public consumption. (Back then I'd thought myself a literary god just waiting to be discovered... EEK...)

In the last two years, I've written and rewritten 4 3/4 novels, and entertained a diverse and very aggressive group of betas (with some exceptions). That was my second success.

My third success came back in January when, after a first submission, I received a personal rejection from the agency representing my favourite author.

My next success, who knows, but I am sure looking forward to it.


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## Schrody (Jul 13, 2015)

Sorry to hear they rejected you, Gav. It's their loss, really.

Me, I just want to publish damn thing :mrgreen: Then, after a while ('cos success doesn't come over night, okay it does in the case of a killer story), it would be nice to get a recognition. It would be nice to be paid a buck or two, of course. If your book is destined to become a best seller, I don't think it will happen before you spend several years (at least) in the market. Then again, everything's possible 

EDIT: my personal successes so far are finishing a book.


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## LeeC (Jul 13, 2015)

Gavrushka said:


> … My next success, who knows, but I am sure looking forward to it.


You'll get there because you've the broader perspective to recognize the intricacies of human subjectiveness involved, and the realistic drive to persevere ;-)


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## Gavrushka (Jul 13, 2015)

Ah, I think what I was trying to say (badly) was that progress is a success in itself. Too many of us seek a far off island we deem our destination and, when we realise how distant it is, abandon the journey or consider a lesser path.

And haha, @Schrody, I'd thought my personal rejection letter was a quantum leap forward, and yet you tried to console me. Thank you for the well-meaning bodyblow you landed, sending me tumbling into a pit of literary despair, never to see the light of day again. *snickers*


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## Snowflake (Jul 13, 2015)

David Gordon Burke said:


> I'll keep this short.
> 
> Bestseller, economic success or literary recognition from your peers?



David (or anyone), I'm new to the field, but wouldn't a best seller be very profitable?


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## Schrody (Jul 13, 2015)

Gavrushka said:


> Ah, I think what I was trying to say (badly) was that progress is a success in itself. Too many of us seek a far off island we deem our destination and, when we realise how distant it is, abandon the journey or consider a lesser path.
> 
> And haha, @Schrody, I'd thought my personal rejection letter was a quantum leap forward, and yet you tried to console me. Thank you for the well-meaning bodyblow you landed, sending me tumbling into a pit of literary despair, never to see the light of day again. *snickers*



Oh, shut up, you know I didn't mean it that way :mrgreen: Yes, your rejection letter is a huge success (you accomplished a lot, something a lot of us haven't - we're probably not even at the same level), BUT, I'm just sorry it hasn't turn to even bigger success of publishing a book. You'll get there, in the meantime, write awesome stories like I know you do ^^

Johnny, Jack, Jim and me are going to party, do you care to join us? Or do you prefer Chivas Regal?


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## TWErvin2 (Jul 13, 2015)

Economic success. In addition to income, it means that a good number of folks have read (and hopefully enjoyed) my novels.

Literary recognition can lead to more general recognition and opportunities for new readers to cross your novel(s)' path, and thus more economic success. Bestseller means at least a burst of sales...but then again it depends on how you define 'bestseller'...or 'economic success' for that matter.

What I certainly do is strive to make the next novel I write better quality/an improvement from the previous one.


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## Gavrushka (Jul 14, 2015)

Snowflake said:


> David (or anyone), I'm new to the field, but wouldn't a best seller be very profitable?



I don't think producing a best seller would necessarily leave an author ready for retirement. - I think (perhaps) too many semantic arguments are attached to it now. - On Twitter, you've endless bestselling authors (self-proclaimed) as they published a Kindle book that was in the top ten of an obscure chart... It could mean they sold three copies on August 7th 2012, all bought by their Aunty Edith.

Even a traditionally published bestseller doesn't really spell financial independence without longevity of sales. - Hitting the charts for one month does not equate to much more than a reasonable second hand car or a nice holiday (guesstimate) but staying there for a period of time, and being in print in multiple languages / formats would likely be very lucrative.

I think multiple books of a good standard does accelerate sales as the purchase of one could well lead to the purchase of them all. Conversely, one bad book could put many people off... - And it's part of the reason why I've never self-published to date. - It's harsh, but I've attempted to read MANY self-published books by people on this site and beyond and, with a couple of exceptions, they were simply not good enough in my opinion.



			
				Schrody the Shredder said:
			
		

> Oh, shut up...



:sorrow: Aww, you big meanie... 



			
				Schrody the Temptress said:
			
		

> Johnny, Jack, Jim and me are going to party, do you care to join us? Or do you prefer Chivas Regal? :smile:



Now that's the kind of olive branch I like.... hehe... If you only knew how long it had been since I'd had a shot of whiskey... Last one I was bought (which cost around thirty quid, or forty euros for a single shot) was by a former business partner. A very good memory, but an even better taste. Mmm...


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## Schrody (Jul 14, 2015)

Gavrushka said:


> :sorrow: Aww, you big meanie...








%


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## Schrody (Jul 14, 2015)

Wait, what happened with my previous post?! :shock:


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## LeeC (Jul 14, 2015)

Gavrushka said:


> …  part of the reason why I've never self-published to date. - It's harsh, but I've attempted to read MANY self-published books by people on this site and beyond and, with a couple of exceptions, they were simply not good enough in my opinion.



Without belaboring the insightful levels of this statement, it speaks to the development of writing skills. It's human nature to be so focused on pleasing ourselves (what we think of as "success"), that only a minority of writers progress to pleasing others. 

If a writer's idea of success is riches, then take your $15 (if you're lucky enough to find it) and run. If on the other hand one truly enjoys the labor of developing good writing skills, and/or believes they have something meaningful to say, their success is measured more in the longevity of their writing. 

There being exceptions to any postulation, the quantity of lottery tickets purchased increases one's chances marginally ;-)


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## Schrody (Jul 14, 2015)

Gavrushka said:


> I think multiple books of a good standard does accelerate sales as the purchase of one could well lead to the purchase of them all. Conversely, one bad book could put many people off... - And it's part of the reason why I've never self-published to date. - It's harsh, but I've attempted to read MANY self-published books by people on this site and beyond and, with a couple of exceptions, they were simply not good enough in my opinion.



Hope my book will satisfy your affinities


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## Kyle R (Jul 14, 2015)

David Gordon Burke said:


> Bestseller, economic success or literary recognition from your peers?
> 
> Which are you stiving for?



Obsessive fans. :encouragement: (But not _too_ obsessive!)


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## Schrody (Jul 14, 2015)

Kyle R said:


> Obsessive fans. :encouragement: (But not _too_ obsessive!)



Well, you already have two great fans


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## ShadowEyes (Jul 14, 2015)

In the words of the immortal Fulton Sheen, "As one publisher said:  Someone brought him a very good novel and he said, 'I know this is a marvelous novel, but this year we're looking for trash.'"


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## David Gordon Burke (Jul 15, 2015)

Snowflake said:


> Best sellers vs economic success... sound the same to me.



It says .... ¨Bestseller, economic success or literary recognition from your peers?´ 

Note the placement of the *OR *in the sentence.  Self explanatory.  
On another note, there are some books that have economic success that don´t necessarily become bestsellers as in listed on the NY times list.  Over time they may sell thousands but never all in one shot.  

David Gordon Burke


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## David Gordon Burke (Jul 15, 2015)

escorial said:


> spill the beans man......



Ok, to answer this question and add my two cents (and I´m always pleased to see when one of my posts gets a lot of response)  I am reminded of the movie ´The Old Gringo¨ based on the novel by the mexican writer Carlos Fuentes.

It's the story of the Hearst empire journalist and author Ambroise Bierce who was rumored to have thrown in the towel and come down here to Mexico to fight alongside Pancho Villa in the Mexican Revolution.

There´s a scene between Gregory Peck (in the role of Bierce) and Jane Fonda.  Bierce is talking about writing and love.  He states that he had been in love with a woman as a young man and he promised her that he would marry her once he had captured  all the joy, pain, passion, hope, faith, truth and humanity in one story .... his ambition was to change the world with his words.

Forty years later he was still chasing that ambition and had never returned to court the woman.

I thought the scene was pretty powerful (albeit in a fairly mediocre movie based on a lame book by an over-rated Mexican author) and summed up the driving force and ambition every writer should have.

As someone who rubs cyber-shoulders with a ton of self-published authors, I am fairly disgusted by the ambition or rather lack of that I see all around me. There seems to be no love of the language whatsoever.  It´s mostly about making a buck.  While I realize that the ebook indie self pub revolution is mostly genre driven (which puts me in the slow lane from the get go) I don´t see why this makes elegant prose take a back seat.  

Factor in the absolute deficit of meaningful themes and you have just a ton of new fiction out there that caters to the lowest common denominator.  Then there are the 'follow the trend' writers who jump on the coat tails of whatever was big five minutes ago (twilight copies segue into BDSM fiction al la 50 shades of tripe) and you have millions upon millions of gigabytes of crapolla pseudo-literature that isn't worth smegma.  

So yeah, making a buck would be nice but at the cost of one's personal integrity (I'm loathe to use the term where these writer/posers are concerned)??? That's not for me.

I could go on all day but a vomitous rant doesn't get my point across with any more clarity.  
I just have to say that the writer that writes with profit in mind will produce neither literature nor a profit.  

"If writers were good businessmen, they'd have too much sense to be writers."
Irvin S. Cobb

David Gordon Burke


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## shadowwalker (Jul 16, 2015)

David Gordon Burke said:


> I just have to say that the writer that writes with profit in mind will produce neither literature nor a profit.



Oh. That discussion again? The God-forbid-anyone-of-integrity-should-write-for-GASP!!!!-money discussion? 

Please tell me I'm mistaken, and you really didn't mean that.


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## David Gordon Burke (Jul 16, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> Oh. That discussion again? The God-forbid-anyone-of-integrity-should-write-for-GASP!!!!-money discussion?
> 
> Please tell me I'm mistaken, and you really didn't mean that.



Strictly with an eye on profit and with absolutely no interest in quality?  Within your question is the word INTEGRITY so NO I did not start that discussion again. My post is and was aimed at the member or current the trend of dorks that think they are going to cash in.  I wish them all fire and brimstone.  I´m curious why you asked since it seemed clear who I was talking about in my post.  The line between writers with integrity and whores seemed clear.

David Gordon Burke


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## shadowwalker (Jul 16, 2015)

David Gordon Burke said:


> Strictly with an eye on profit and with absolutely no interest in quality?  Within your question is the word INTEGRITY so NO I did not start that discussion again. My post is and was aimed at the member or current the trend of dorks that think they are going to cash in.  I wish them all fire and brimstone.  I´m curious why you asked since it seemed clear who I was talking about in my post.  The line between writers with integrity and whores seemed clear.



You saw which statement of yours I quoted, right? And within that post you spoke of "elegant language" and "lack of meaningful themes" and "pseudo-literature". All of that was more than "Strictly with an eye on profit and with absolutely no interest in quality". I'm quite sure that most people who write (whether self-published or trade) _believe _they are putting out a quality book, and very few actually think they can publish badly written stuff and make money. (Now, whether or not their stuff meets our individual opinions of quality is another matter.) Most self-publishers that I've interacted with simply believe that they now have a chance to make some money from their writing, which was not possible before. Sure, there are a few idiots out there who think it's a great-rich-quick scheme regardless of quality - but they tend to fade out quickly.


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## David Gordon Burke (Jul 16, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> I'm quite sure that most people who write (whether self-published or trade) _believe _they are putting out a quality book, and very few actually think they can publish badly written stuff and make money.



Your opinion of the average writer and their motives is not one that I cannot share.  I don´t know how keyed in you are to the Self-publishing world; I have seen you mention you shun Amazon almost in its entirety.

Just check out this link.
http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Kindle-Store-Short-Stories/zgbs/digital-text/157087011
Let me run it down for you.
Page 1 - Seven stories which feature 6 pack abs on the covers (always a sign of stellar prose)  A bunch of stories that are obviously erotica if not porno and feature a billionaire (Shades of 50 shades)  A few books about having a threesome within the family (incest)  Two sci-fi short stories etc. 
Page 2 - More of the same plus a short by George R.R. Martin
Page 3 - Ok .... I just cannot go on.  You get my point.

Sadly the known authors here are well represented here with some quality work while the Indie writers are milking the baser instincts and riding any trend possible.  Excuse me if I doubt that it is just a coincidence that all these writers have a natural need to write young-adult-shape-shifing-wolves-in-steamy-torrid-affairs-with-half-sister-vampire novels.  Oh, and the shape shifters are billionaires.

So again, no shame in making a buck for your art.  It´s actually a valid indication of its value.  But I still believe it should be art first.  (Or at the least, aim for some artistic sensibility or grammatic quality)  

David Gordon Burke


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## ShadowEyes (Jul 16, 2015)

David Gordon Burke said:


> So again, no shame in making a buck for your art.  It´s actually a valid indication of its value.



This particular market, the Kindle, is a great place to secretly store smut. Perhaps it's a consequence of the medium. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong parts of the bookstore, but I've never seen smutty _short story_ compilations in traditional publishing.


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## Kyle R (Jul 16, 2015)

Nothing wrong with some steamy lunch-break romances. Tons of readers are looking for exactly that.

It's no worse than thrilling action stories, prose-laden literary fiction, or frightening horror tales. Just a different subject matter for a different readership. :encouragement:


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## ShadowEyes (Jul 16, 2015)

Kyle R said:


> Just a different subject matter for a different readership. :encouragement:



::shrug::  Supply and demand. Just saying that the anonymity of the kindle might explain this particular market glut, or "success," or what-have-you.

Edit:  Markets are weird and I have no idea how popularity works. :b


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## shadowwalker (Jul 17, 2015)

David Gordon Burke said:


> Y
> Let me run it down for you.
> Page 1 - Seven stories which feature 6 pack abs on the covers (always a sign of stellar prose)  A bunch of stories that are obviously erotica if not porno and feature a billionaire (Shades of 50 shades)  A few books about having a threesome within the family (incest)  Two sci-fi short stories etc.
> Page 2 - More of the same plus a short by George R.R. Martin
> Page 3 - Ok .... I just cannot go on.  You get my point.



So yeah, basically you're saying you don't care for those kinds of books and therefore the authors are doing this just for the money and aren't "artists" at all.

You know, I've read all kinds of books by all kinds of authors - everything from "high literature" to the Hardy Boys. Some books I've enjoyed and some books I tossed. And some books I enjoyed but put down because I wasn't in the mood for that kind of book at that time. But I never put down an entire group of authors because they happened to write books that I generally didn't care for. It seems rather presumptuous to label other self-published authors in the way you have, and then show that they have merely written the kind of books you don't seem to like. (And btw, those "6 pack abs" covers are a 'signature' of romance, have been for a long, long time, and there are a lot of very very good writers in that genre.)


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## David Gordon Burke (Jul 17, 2015)

shadowwalker said:


> So yeah, basically you're saying you don't care for those kinds of books and therefore the authors are doing this just for the money and aren't "artists" at all.



Why is it that in a constructive debate it seems a valid strategy to totally ignore the most valid points so one can further their agenda?

Most valid points.

.....A bunch of stories that are obviously erotica if not *porno *and feature a *billionaire *(*Shades of 50 shades*) A few books about having a *threesome within the family (incest)* 
......milking the baser instincts and riding any trend possible
.....young-adult-shape-shifing-wolves-in-steamy-torrid-affairs-with-half-sister-vampire novels. Oh, and the shape shifters are billionaires.

Turning the tables ..... you are saying that you wouldn´t be at all surprised and actually expect to find Hemingway, Steinbeck or Faukner quality prose within the aforementioned genres?  

I have nothing against steamy.  Just as in film, I think sexy or erotic can be art.  The defining line is simple ... caress the camera or pen, it's sexy and art. Insert the camera or pen in HD close-ups, it's XXX and not worth my time thank you very much.  

As for your choice of word 'presumptuous' - from the verb 'To presume' - as in to form an opinion with no basis ... suppose that something is the case on the basis of probability.  Believe me, I have a basis and the only probability involved is that my opinion isn't based everything out there.  Of the thousands of Indie writers and books I have been exposed to, I have found less than a handful that weren't blatant and transparent in their bestseller agenda.  

But hey, prove me wrong.  Name me just one porno-billionaire-incest young-adult-shape-shifing-wolves-in-steamy-torrid-affairs-with-half-sister-vampire novel that you recommend, consider art with quality prose and which was written for the sake of the art and not for a quick paycheck.  I'll read it.

David Gordon Burke


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## TKent (Jul 17, 2015)

I love my smut. It sits happily on my Kindle right next to my Donna Tartt, Anthony Doerr, Paula Hawkins and Gillian Flynn. And really smart literary types who know much more about this stuff than I do, even argue whether Donna Tartt's Pulitzer Prize-winning, "The Goldfinch," can be considered literary fiction. I read one article that said her winning that prize shows that literary fiction is headed for disaster. So it really can be so subjective.

But on the topic of 'smut' and how easy it is to hide it on your Kindle, well...don't make the mistake of buying your husband a Kindle Fire for Christmas and thinking through the CONSEQUENCES of having him use your Amazon account. Imagine my embarrassment, when all my smut showed up in his carousel. It went something like this...

Husband: "Devoured? Where did that come from?"
Me: "Uh, it's mine."
Husband: "What's it about?"
Me: "Uh, er, it's a romance. Part of the Consumed series."
Husband: "Since when did you start reading books called Devoured."
Me: "Uh, you really don't want to go there do you? Glass houses and all that?"

He hasn't said a word since


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## Terry D (Jul 17, 2015)

To me, success would be a mixture of the three. I'd like to make money from my writing -- enough to suppliment my regular income, now and after retirement would be nice -- I'd also like my writing to be recognized as entertaining and thought provoking. I don't see where those two goals are at odds. Nor do they exclude the third option; I find my writing very self-satisfying, and if I'm ever in danger of achieving my goals I'll reestablish new goals.


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## shadowwalker (Jul 17, 2015)

David Gordon Burke said:


> ....A bunch of stories that are obviously erotica if not *porno *and feature a *billionaire *(*Shades of 50 shades*) A few books about having a *threesome within the family (incest)*



Did you read them? Do you know they were poorly written? Or was actually as I stated - you just don't like that kind of story?



David Gordon Burke said:


> ......milking the baser instincts and riding any trend possible



_All _of them? Or just those you actually read?



David Gordon Burke said:


> .....young-adult-shape-shifing-wolves-in-steamy-torrid-affairs-with-half-sister-vampire novels. Oh, and the shape shifters are billionaires.



Again - Did you read them? Do you know they were poorly written? 



David Gordon Burke said:


> Turning the tables ..... you are saying that you wouldn´t be at all surprised and actually expect to find Hemingway, Steinbeck or Faukner quality prose within the aforementioned genres?



You mean romance (as that's the only 'genre' mentioned - and by me)? No, I would not be surprised to find that quality. Of course, there are a great many people who don't think Hemingway, Steinbeck or Faukner wrote that well, so...



David Gordon Burke said:


> I have nothing against steamy.  Just as in film, I think sexy or erotic can be art.  The defining line is simple ... caress the camera or pen, it's sexy and art. Insert the camera or pen in HD close-ups, it's XXX and not worth my time thank you very much.



Right. So you don't like "XXX" and therefore... as I noted before. 



David Gordon Burke said:


> But hey, prove me wrong.  Name me just one porno-billionaire-incest young-adult-shape-shifing-wolves-in-steamy-torrid-affairs-with-half-sister-vampire novel that you recommend, consider art with quality prose and which was written for the sake of the art and not for a quick paycheck.  I'll read it.



Yeah, I'll just flip out a few hundred with those detailed parameters. :roll: And if I did, you probably would flip through them and "decide" they just proved your point regardless, which is your right, of course. After all, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Doesn't mean others have to agree or see any merit in it.


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## Kyle R (Jul 17, 2015)

Every minute spent worrying about the success of others is sixty seconds that could be better spent working toward one's own success. :encouragement:


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## David Gordon Burke (Jul 19, 2015)

My apologies if this thread took a turn south.  Truthfully, as we all know, everyone is entitled to write whatever they want and no one´s opinion has a damn thing to do with it.  Sadly, we writers tend to write, debate and write some more regardless of what we truly believe ... it´s great writing practice.  I do it all the time. Nevertheless, I stand behind my original opinion - in general terms, the writers writing the best prose out there, the most memorable and respected prose are doing it the way the best writers of all times have been doing it ... from a deep need within them, from an idea that is either original or in some cases so very lightly inspired by previous work as to be untraceable.  Sure, one could argue that even Shakespeare had influences (Ovid, Seneca, Holinshed, Chaucer) but did he jump on a current trend or did he rework their themes in his own way?  

The Thread is called *Success *and if one´s sole measure of success is an economic measure, well ok, I suppose any author from the most horrific to the most competent could turn to XXX or whatever currently sells.  My point, apparently lost in the belief that I am somehow jealous of this success, which has been well documented and commented on, is that there is a ton of very bad prose within these ´get rich´ genres.  

I myself guage my success on a whole other level.  This week I got four new verified reviews by complete strangers.  Three five star reviews and a four star review.  The comments were a real boost to my confidence.  I did this without paying any attention to trends, without falling back on the formulaic commercial paperback story structure and in a genre I believe in and know something about.  

Shadowwalker, you stated that you just don´t want to embarrass yourself.  
I´d say that reviews like these are more than shamefull.  
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007J4T2G8/?tag=writingforu06-20

So are E.L. James and her copycats writing for literary acceptance?  (Rhetorical question)  Even worse, it appears that within the BDSM world she is laughed at as having no idea of what she is talking .  

Sadly, in a traditional bookstore one walks right by the shelf of Harlequin romances and pulp titles and goes straight to their area of preference.  The bestseller lists are broken down by category but within the Self Pub world this is not the case.  It´s a free for all and I believe a lot of good prose never has a chance against the vast numbers.  

David Gordon Burke


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