# October Prompt Voting



## Potty

This thread will close on Sunday 30th 23:59.


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## HKayG

Ooh, look at it go!  You can tell how many people are going to be in this competition by the votes


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## Fin

Shhh, we need another judge! Don't scare them off before they agree to do it!


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## HKayG

Whoops! Sorry, i'll say it quieter next time...


You can tell how many people are going to be in this competition by the votes


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## FleshEater

I was just sitting here thinking about these topics to vote on; they're really cool ideas, but October is the month of Halloween. I'm kind of disappointed these weren't all October based themes...I'm a sucker for Halloween and the fall season. Sorry...just felt like throwing my opinion out there.


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## JackKnife

Out at sea, out at sea, out at sea!


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## Kyle R

Psh! I'll just write my _Better Living Through Chemicals_ story and plop my characters on a boat.


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## JackKnife

_Better Living Through Seafaring Chemistry_?_

Ahoy, Chemists!_?_

Out at Chemist-sea_?


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## garza

seasick pills


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## Fin

FleshEater said:


> I was just sitting here thinking about these topics to vote on; they're really cool ideas, but October is the month of Halloween. I'm kind of disappointed these weren't all October based themes...I'm a sucker for Halloween and the fall season. Sorry...just felt like throwing my opinion out there.



Hey there! You can always twist the prompt to fit a Halloween idea you may have. 

For future reference, it takes no special permission to nominate a prompt. So if you ever feel a prompt should be in the voting, just post it in the LM Coffee Shop. If others like it over the other ones, they'll vote for it.


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## FleshEater

Thanks Fin! I didn't even realize the process in which these prompts were decided upon until a few days ago. I'm still trying to familiarize myself with the site ha-ha! 

November emits a spooky atmosphere as well so maybe I'll think of one to offer up for then.


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## MisterTribute

Wrong Number! Hey there. Wrong Number, anyone? Five votes? Come on. Wrong Number. Wrong Number.


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## Jeko

Wrong Number actually sounds like a halloween-y kind of prompt. Didn't realise that until now.

Though I don't want people to vote for it. I've already written my entry for Out at Sea!


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## Deleted member 49710

I suppose one issue with using a poll like this is that the topic may be decided, at least partially, by people who probably aren't going to write an entry (because 27 entries would be a lot, looking at the history). Having to vote by posting sort of commits you, or at least makes you declare an intention. Anonymously, you could just take your bribe from the "Out at sea" crowd and nobody would ever know.  

Maybe that's okay, though.


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## Fin

It's not exactly anonymous. Click one of the numbers, it shows you who voted for what.


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## Jon M

Oh, there's always underhanded* deals going on in the streets and the dim sweaty alleyways of WF, Fin. The stories I could tell. Oh the stories I could tell!

*an entirely fabricated and unserious and most likely untrue statement. :cowers:

Being serious for a moment, the point is: the poll makes it really easy for the random member (who has never participated before) to drop by and place a vote. Posting in the coffeehouse thread at least puts you in the community a little, even briefly. 

BUT ...

that may sound elitist. And even though there are currently 27 voters, a good chunk of those have taken a spin around the wheel at least once. So I am not sure about this new polling feature. When was the last time there were 27 submissions anyway? Last big one I remember was the Fall one from last year, and before that, the Caretaker.


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## Fin

You're right on that. It's rare that we even get 27 people to vote. The majority of the people there have indeed entered at least once though. So who knows! In either case, it's not too often that everyone who votes actually submits something, anyway.


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## Foxee

Might be some who don't like the winning prompt enough to enter. It happens.


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## Potty

I agree with fox, I often vote and end up not entering as I don't like the prompt that comes out on top. This is just the narrowed down list from the coffee house. But I can see what you mean about people dropping by just for the sake of casting a vote, thouht this competition is meant more for a bit of fun than a super serious "one mistake and you're out" comp.


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## garza

Other side of the coin: It's supposed to be a challenge, so if the prompt is something I don't like, that adds a bit to the challenge of  writing about something I would not normally write about, as with the 'Sex Tape' prompt. That was a real challenge - how to write about a sex tape that had nothing to do with sex. 

I'm also entering every Challenge regardless of the prompt because it's the only place I've found where I can be sure of getting some criticism from several people. When I post on the Fiction board people rarely comment unless they like the story, and then they often don't offer any real criticism.

My old complaint about the judging remains. When judges give less than five points for SPaG they rarely say why, which makes me spend a lot of time going through my piece word for word trying to find errors. In the Challenge just ended only Kyle Colorado pointed to specific items. That was a big help. One was caused by Kyle relying on U.S. rather than correct spelling, but at least I saw why he counted it against me, and the other was a typo on my part and a real error. Also I sometimes wonder if my use of dialect in the dialogue is counted as errors. If they are, so be it, but at least I would know why the judge takes off points.


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## Deleted member 49710

Oh, I didn't know you could see who voted for what (you can't in those poetry challenge polls, I just tried). That changes things. As Jon M and Fin note, most of these voters have been around before. And then  having new people is good, too. Heck, I'm still fairly new to this  myself.

And it's not that I think people who vote should be obligated to participate - couldn't exactly hunt them down and viciously snap their pens in half if they don't, could we - just that it's nice if they are at least considering it. 

However, maybe it would be just as fine to have hordes of random people voting on what they want to read. Like Garza says, the challenge of figuring out how to use an odd prompt is part of what makes the exercise useful.


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## Soft Rains

Well I just voted and I am not entirely sure if I am going to submit. I'm new to the forum and still learning about all the different groups, contests, etc. So when I found this challenge and read through the thread, I wanted to see what this group could do for Out to Sea. It's kind of like that home improvement show where they let viewers vote online for what color they want the room painted or which pieces of furniture to use. Then the designers put it together on tv and we get to see what we picked (or didn't). Soooo that's my reasoning for proudly voting and possibly not submitting..........this time at least! Show me your best OUT TO SEA!


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## Potty

garza said:


> One was caused by Kyle relying on U.S. rather than correct spelling,



:coffeescreen:

I guess it's right that others can vote even if they don't wish to enter. I suppose it would be more of a challenge if those taking part didn't have full control over what should be challenging. A wild card, so to speak. Also as someone mentioned, it might be nice for the judges to have a say in what they want to judge... Writing a story if a challenege yes, but judging all of them is way harder.


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## Foxee

Half the time (okay, more than half, I haven't written one for a while) I mean to enter the LM and just don't get anything written even if I've tossed a vote in on what prompt I like. 

The judges should continue to judge each piece for continuity's sake and to keep it easy to run. LM has enough moving parts without adding more.


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## Potty

I wasn't suggesting we change the judging format, just pointing out that judging 10+ stories is harder than writing one story, so it might be nice if those who are willing to judge get to have a say in what the prompt is  I was just stating the obvious I guess.


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## bazz cargo

Voting is a sign of intent, not of success.


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## Foxee

Guess I didn't catch the obvious. You'd think I'd be better at that!


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## JackKnife

garza said:


> Other side of the coin: It's supposed to be a challenge, so if the prompt is something I don't like, that adds a bit to the challenge of  writing about something I would not normally write about, as with the 'Sex Tape' prompt. That was a real challenge - how to write about a sex tape that had nothing to do with sex.
> 
> I'm also entering every Challenge regardless of the prompt because it's the only place I've found where I can be sure of getting some criticism from several people. When I post on the Fiction board people rarely comment unless they like the story, and then they often don't offer any real criticism.
> 
> My old complaint about the judging remains. When judges give less than five points for SPaG they rarely say why, which makes me spend a lot of time going through my piece word for word trying to find errors. In the Challenge just ended only Kyle Colorado pointed to specific items. That was a big help. One was caused by Kyle relying on U.S. rather than correct spelling, but at least I saw why he counted it against me, and the other was a typo on my part and a real error. Also I sometimes wonder if my use of dialect in the dialogue is counted as errors. If they are, so be it, but at least I would know why the judge takes off points.


Everything you said.

Especially the SPaG bit. It reminds me of my old boss, who would do employee assessments, and would mark me 4/5 for punctuality, with a remark saying 'perfect attendance - no complaints'. I asked him where I lost the point. He says, 'well, nobody's perfect'. :-(


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## garza

Hi Jack - Your old boss hasn't joined the forum, has he? My suspicion, confirmed by one judge in an LM Challenge a few months ago, is that the same attitude is held by some in judging for SPaG errors - nobody's perfect, so nobody gets a 5. 

It's difficult for me to question the other criteria as they have to do with the 'artsy' side about which I know nothing and understand less.


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## Fin

The 5 on SPaG is a difficult one for me to judge. I really don't even know what qualifies for it. The 4, according to the guidelines, already says that your SPaG was perfect. I don't really know where to go after that, so I usually just leave it be.


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## garza

Four can't mean error-free if there's another point beyond that. To me a four means there is at least one spelling, punctuation, or grammar error in the story. 

But if what you are saying is true, I have spent many hours uselessly searching for phantom errors.


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## Fin

garza said:


> Four can't mean error-free if there's another point beyond that. To me a four means there is at least one spelling, punctuation, or grammar error in the story.



Hm, you saying that makes me wonder if you've been to the judging guideline thread. They are, for SPaG:



> 1/5 - Illegible or unreadable writing.
> 2/5 - Consistent grammatical and spelling related errors.
> 3/5 - Predominantly correct. Minor errors.
> 4/5 - Grammatically flawless writing.
> 5/5 - Competent manipulation of sentence structure, creative use of punctuation and effective paragraph composition.



It has me stuck. Because usually _creative_ punctuation is, quite frankly, incorrect punctuation. I've thought about opening a thread about whether or not obvious intentional mistakes are still mistakes, but I decided against because it seemed a bit silly. Whereas the rest of the guidelines that qualify you for a 5 have a little more to do with tone than actual grammar to me.


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## Deleted member 49710

Well, looking at the Adjudication thingie, the rules say:


> *4/5* - Grammatically flawless writing.
> 
> *5/5* - Competant manipulation of sentence structure, creative use of punctuation and effective paragraph composition.


When I read this I interpret it thusly: 4 means you didn't make any actual mistakes, but you didn't do anything exciting, either. Like you're constantly using a simple sentence structure, and you do it right, but you don't take any risks. 5 means you didn't make any mistakes, you used varied and interesting sentence structures, maybe you got a little complicated with your verb tenses or you played with the structure in an interesting way, and it works well on the paragraph/piece level as well as the sentence level.

Not sure if this is actually how it plays out in every judge's head (I expect they differ), I'd be glad to hear explanations.

Edit, just saw Fin's post above: I've wondered about intentional "mistakes," too - sentence fragments, punctuation, dialect (as Garza brings up) and colloquialisms, etc. For me, it's usually obvious when someone's doing this for style/voice purposes and I think it's cool and interesting. But I know some people deduct points. Just the judge's personal preference, I suppose.


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## garza

Well, looking at that, and considering that I do spend time working on variations in sentence structure (so important in broadcast news), occasional use of punctuation that varies from the strict rules for effect (again guided by my experience in writing for the ear), and careful structuring of paragraphs to create a coherent whole (more to do with print journalism than broadcast, but important in both), with examples for all of this I could point to in every story I've entered, and yet they almost always get fours and not fives. 

And why are those included as part of SPaG? And what about sentence fragments, which I'm fond of using? 

Even if SPaG is subjective and a matter of the judge's opinion, then, again, some explanation is owed to the writer to know in what area the work failed to meet the requirement as seen by the judge.

I see no way of achieving a five for SPaG if it's so subjective, and I doubt the judges are going to want to spend the extra time explaining. Listing actual SPaG errors would be easy. Explaining the subjective reasoning would be more difficult and time consuming. 

I give up.


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## Foxee

Garza, each judge pretty much has to interpret how to use the scoring, hence the subjectivity. If I'm judging and I don't see any SPaG errors I'll give it a five. You sound like you wouldn't. Depends on the judge.


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## garza

If I were judging and there were no SPaG errors I would give a 5, no question. SPaG is SPaG. Elements of effective writing such as sentence and paragraph structure are not SPaG.

Why are those subjective elements included in the one area that I've always assumed was purely objective? This is frustrating to think of the amount of time and energy I've spent trying to find SPaG errors when there were none. 

If a judge sees that one of the subjective criteria has not been met, then that should be described for the benefit of the writer. If, for example, a judge were to say, 'All your sentences are 20 words long and of the form subject-verb-object. You need variety in your sentences', then I would understand where the point was lost. But to mark down a point with no explanation whatever, and say that _that_ part of the the score is for SPaG when in fact there are no SPaG errors does not help me at all. The reason I've been entering the LM Challenge is to get help in learning to write fiction. A ghost score with no explanation is no help. 

Again I appreciate Kyle Colorado for listing the two (actually only one; one was a due to a difference in U.S. and U.K. spelling) errors he saw in my last story. That explained why I got less than a 5 for SPaG, and that I understood, no problem.


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## Jon M

Fin said:


> It has me stuck. Because usually _creative_ punctuation is, quite frankly, incorrect punctuation. I've thought about opening a thread about whether or not obvious intentional mistakes are still mistakes, but I decided against because it seemed a bit silly. Whereas the rest of the guidelines that qualify you for a 5 have a little more to do with tone than actual grammar to me.


Seems to me like the explanations of 4/5 and 5/5 ought to be switched. 5/5 is when it becomes an art, when the writer is doing interesting things with punctuation. 

And I thought about opening up the same discussion last last challenge, too, but thought it might have looked like sour grapes. And it's tough to criticize judging because everybody knows it's voluntary and quite an undertaking ... but stories deserve to be considered fairly and with an open mind. If the sentences are fragmented, for example, because the POV is close and the character is an immigrant, 2/5 might be totally unfair -- the writer probably knows the grammar sucks. He's trying to create a voice.

And, if the spag's anything but 5/5, judges need to explain why. Just have to, or else what's the point? And, if in trying to explain the score the judge finds the score can't be explained, at least not with specifics, then maybe kind of possibly the score is wrong.

Edit: Just to add, this is why I dislike the Spag / tone / effect categories because I think it makes the judges life pure hell. I never rated that way. Seems infinitely better to just rate them all out of /20 and justify criticisms with specifics. I'd hate to see this discussion go on or be perceived as an attack on the judges because it's not, and the time every judge gives is seriously commendable and the only reason this LM thing works.


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## TheFuhrer02

Foxee said:


> If I'm judging and I don't see any SPaG errors I'll give it a five.



I'd give it a five, too.


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## Potty

All of the rules will be looked at soon and made more clear.


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## KarlR

Jon M said:


> 5/5 is when it becomes an art, when the writer is doing interesting things with punctuation.
> 
> If the sentences are fragmented, for example, because the POV is close and the character is an immigrant, 2/5 might be totally unfair -- the writer probably knows the grammar sucks. He's trying to create a voice.


This is also my interpretation.  In the October challenge, you may be forewarned that I will judge SPaG using this as a guideline.  Having said that, SPaG has almost never been a factor in any of the entries I've judged. 


Tone and Voice | 0-5 points.

*1/5* - No discernable style.

*2/5* - Generic, uninteresting tone.

*3/5* - Effective yet inconsistent vocabulary and phrasing.

*4/5* - Strong, interesting use of a particular tone.

*5/5* - Perfectly fitting or unique style and technique.


Effect | 0-10 points.

Remaining points are yours to set. Things you might want to consider are originality, conceptual interest, effectiveness of imagery, emotional evocativeness and, of course, creative interpretation of the theme.

I use these as my meat-and-potatoes guidelines when I judge.  Show me strength and interest in these categories and I'll likely overlook any weakness in SPaG.

And best of luck to this month's entrants!


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## bazz cargo

Garza. I owe you and everyone else who I have judged an apology. I am very sorry for any confusion I have caused. You make a concrete point about how the LM score is done and I have been remiss in not noticing this. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

 After spending some time stoned out of my mind with exhaustion in the be-wilderness and  some deep soul searching I am turning over a new leaf. Brace yourselves.


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## Nemesis

... should we be scared?


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## Fin

It's Bazz. Of course you should be scared.


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## garza

KarlR - None of my writing is 'art'. I don't do 'art'. I never have. I never will. I'm no 'artist' of any sort. 

When my spelling of a word is not accepted as a spelling allowed by either U.S. or U.K. dictionaries, when I make a punctuation error other than for emphasis of some sort such as using a full stop in place of an ellipsis, or when I make an error in grammar or usage other than in dialect used in dialogue or in the use of such craft techniques as the deliberate use of a sentence fragment, then I have committed a SPaG error.

I confess that as I do not judge, for reasons fully explained earlier, I've never read the Judge's Rules for this site. Had I done so, and had I realised I could be counted as committing a SPaG error for not being 'artistic' enough, I doubt I ever would have entered the Challenges. 

My apologies for being where I obviously do not belong.


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## Jon M

Think maybe you are getting hung up on that devil of a word, art, and missing the point. And that point is, when you modify your sentence structure, or any other aspect of grammar, in service of the story, it should not be penalized.

And how many times do you have to place in the top three or win to stop believing this self-deprecating nonsense?


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## Terry D

When I judge LM entries I try to look at SPaG like an editor first, and then I take that nasty fifth point into consideration.  I've handed out a few 5s based on the current criteria, but not many.  The rest of the judging criteria I try to judge like a writer; does the piece work for me?  If so, why? If not, why not?


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## garza

Jon M - If you had listened to as many lectures as I did up to the age of ten you, also, would reject any idea that your writing is art. I cannot post my grandfather's definition of art and artists here for fear of being banned forever and ever. Writing is a _craft_. I do believe that I am a competent _craftsman_. 

The challenges are a good way to get criticism. It's the one place where I have a captive audience required to critically comment on what I write. That's maybe a selfish attitude, but it's the truth. Posting in Fiction generally earns little more than 'I like this' or maybe 'I didn't believe in the character'. 

Frankly I do feel like an idiot for never having read the Judges' Rules. I look at the breakdown of the score and see a point off for SPaG. I've been taking that literally, that a 4 means there is at least one actual error in spelling, punctuation, or grammar. Now I find out that's not true, that spelling, punctuation, and grammar have to be, not only correct, but 'artsy' to get a five. I have no idea how to do that.

In over half a century of writing I've never had an editor say, 'Your story about the rebel attack on the village was good reporting, but it wasn't artsy enough'. 

I'm re-thinking the idea of learning to write fiction.


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## Nemesis

When I think of the kind of writing I would give a five in that section, I think of Stephen King's short story "Survivor Type" It intentionaly breaks the rules, but in a creative way that fully drives the piece home. Not saying it has to be as good, but in order to get that perfect twenty I feel like not only should the words convey the story, they should add to or be apart of the story.


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## FleshEater

I find an artist and a craftsman very similiar, and even sometimes the same. 


I think by artful they mean more intriguing.


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## Terry D

garza said:


> Jon M - If you had listened to as many lectures as I did up to the age of ten you, also, would reject any idea that your writing is art. I cannot post my grandfather's definition of art and artists here for fear of being banned forever and ever. Writing is a _craft_. I do believe that I am a competent _craftsman_.
> 
> The challenges are a good way to get criticism. It's the one place where I have a captive audience required to critically comment on what I write. That's maybe a selfish attitude, but it's the truth. Posting in Fiction generally earns little more than 'I like this' or maybe 'I didn't believe in the character'.
> 
> Frankly I do feel like an idiot for never having read the Judges' Rules. I look at the breakdown of the score and see a point off for SPaG. I've been taking that literally, that a 4 means there is at least one actual error in spelling, punctuation, or grammar. Now I find out that's not true, that spelling, punctuation, and grammar have to be, not only correct, but 'artsy' to get a five. I have no idea how to do that.
> 
> In over half a century of writing I've never had an editor say, 'Your story about the rebel attack on the village was good reporting, but it wasn't artsy enough'.
> 
> I'm re-thinking the idea of learning to write fiction.



Before you throw in the fiction towel, garza, remember that your work here is being judged (for the greatest part) by amateur writers like me applying subjective opinions.  Don't let the opinions of four strangers once a month deflect you from your goal.  If I may steal from Justice Potter Stewart's opinion on obscenity; "I may not be able to define good fiction writing, but I know it when I see it."  And I see it often in your stories.


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## Jon M

garza said:


> Jon M - If you had listened to as many lectures as I did up to the age of ten you, also, would reject any idea that your writing is art. I cannot post my grandfather's definition of art and artists here for fear of being banned forever and ever. Writing is a _craft_. I do believe that I am a competent _craftsman_.
> 
> The challenges are a good way to get criticism. It's the one place where I have a captive audience required to critically comment on what I write. That's maybe a selfish attitude, but it's the truth. Posting in Fiction generally earns little more than 'I like this' or maybe 'I didn't believe in the character'.
> 
> Frankly I do feel like an idiot for never having read the Judges' Rules. I look at the breakdown of the score and see a point off for SPaG. I've been taking that literally, that a 4 means there is at least one actual error in spelling, punctuation, or grammar. Now I find out that's not true, that spelling, punctuation, and grammar have to be, not only correct, but 'artsy' to get a five. I have no idea how to do that.


The criteria changes with the judge. And I think it was me who first brought art into this, but that is only my guideline and it has never been something I took very seriously. But perhaps I should apologize for opening that can of worms. I get the impression, at least in this discussion, that 'art' is something of a pejorative term.

How about we all be friends again and not take this so seriously, mmkay?


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## Deleted member 49710

garza said:


> The challenges are a good way to get criticism. It's the one place where  I have a captive audience required to critically comment on what I  write. That's maybe a selfish attitude, but it's the truth. Posting in  Fiction generally earns little more than 'I like this' or maybe 'I  didn't believe in the character'.


Have you tried Workshop?  Because I feel like I've received good constructive criticism there and  seen others receive it - I try to deal it out when I can, though  sometimes I ramble.



> Now I find out that's not true, that spelling, punctuation, and  grammar have to be, not only correct, but 'artsy' to get a five.


I don't think that's what Jon M or anyone else is saying -  just that people who are trying to work with style should not be  penalized for those efforts.

Also,  can we drop the word "artsy"? There's no reason to denigrate people or  texts that attempt to do something stylistically different or  interesting. It's not pretentious or whatever just because it's not everyone's thing.


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## garza

I _do_ try to do create stories that are a bit different and I do use punctuation and grammatical variances for effect. Such variances are part of the craft that I've pursued all my life. My all-dialogue stories, for example. (note deliberate use of sentence fragment) One of the almost-all-dialogue stories, 'The Writer', is the only story I've ever posted in fiction that drew extensive and useful criticism. (Also the attention of a magazine editor who asked to see more of my work, but I doubt that will lead anywhere.)

The story 'Venus in Transit' broke several rules, but the variances were, I thought, obviously deliberate. Three of the four judges scored it 4 out of 5 for SPaG, but none of them explained what errors they saw. _That_ is what is frustrating. Did they see a sentence fragment as an error? Did they see the use of a full stop instead of an ellipsis as an error? What? It's as though they are saying, 'We see a mistake, but we're not telling you what it is.'

'Workshop' is for people who are far more advanced than I am in writing fiction. It's billed as a place for people who believe they have material ready, or nearly ready, for publication. I doubt I'll live long enough to reach that point. That one little nibble I had for 'The Writer' was more, I believe, based on non-fiction articles I've published in the magazine in years gone by than any real interest in me as a fiction writer. I figure there's some old fossil still hanging about the place who remembers when I was an occasional contributor.

edit - 'Artsy' is not meant to offend anyone. It's the least offensive word my grandfather ever used on the subject.


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## Eluixa

I have not been here in a while [would love to get back] but I've judged several times and entered several times. It is going to be very difficult to get a 20 from me and I expect the same when being judged. It is a rare piece that has no spag, but the better the piece and less likely it is due to grammatical laziness, but just oversight in an otherwise awesome story, the less I will discount for it. Subjective? I guess so. I cannot account for each detail either, but have to judge by the whole and not the parts so much. 
As for art? Take me somewhere and immerse me, douse me, leave me thinking about what you told, feeling it. If you can do that, you get points for art. Art/craft, whichever. 
All of us who are willing to try hard belong here [Garza].


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## Eluixa

And just as an aside, workshop is for people that want their rights preserved. I don't go to fiction, I go to workshop when I have something I want to explore. I read there too, and I could be wrong, but I think it is for all of us. The expectation is something fairly neat and polished, but you if anyone has experience in submitting clean works, it's you.


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## bazz cargo

> 'Workshop' is for people who are far more advanced than I am in writing fiction.


Wrong. The workshop is exactly where you should be. 

The daft thing is, you have been writing from year dot. You are miles ahead of me at spag. Don't take my scoring to heart. You should be judging me. At least I would get the benefit of your experience.  I only started in 2010, I'm still in the learning to crawl stage.

I put work into the workshop. I try out ideas. A little experiment now and then. Go on, put something in there yourself. It won't hurt. Honest. And without the slightest hint of a shadow of a doubt it is where you should be.


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## ppsage

I dropped out of the challange mostly because people were beginning to take the useless scoring systm a little too seriously. Score on a twenty point must system, in relation to the competition and say, as best you can, why you did it. Try to satisfy yourself that you've been fair. Or else score in ten catagories and have a hundred points. The system as it stands is a blunt instrument.


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## Potty

I post in the workshop and I think it's safe to say I'm not an advanced writer.


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## garza

At least now I know I'm was not going crazy when I would go back through a story line by line, time after time, trying to find errors that weren't there. The SPaG point that has nothing to do with SPaG errors is beyond my understanding. We can leave it at that and move on.

Eluixa - What upset me has nothing to do with final scores and everything to do with trying to use the LM Challenge to learn. I thought the SPaG score was strictly for SPaG errors. It's not.


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## Potty

As I say, all the rules will be getting reviewed at some point soon


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## garza

Potty - There should be no need for any review as I seem to be the only one with a problem, and it's my problem for failing to read and understand the Judges' Rules.


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## KarlR

Wow!  Quite the little dust-up.  Allow me to share my view of the LM:

We are all (or, at least, _almost_ all) amateurs, writing amateur stories for the benefit and judgement of amateurs.  Ask me to judge and you'll get an amateur judgement.  

I've said it before: The Baron has provided us with a sandbox.  We all get to play.  We build stuff out of sand--some good, some not-so-much.  It's sand, not cement.  Hopefully we learn something in the process and get a little better. 

Win, lose or place, I take none of the critiques as absolute.  Nor should anyone take my critique as anything more important than they would regard any other stranger's opinion.

This is supposed to be fun.  Don't forget to have fun.


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## garza

You misunderstand the objection I've raised. I believe everyone has. It has naught to do with the critiques.

My entries in LM have been for the purpose of getting reviews. I have learned from all the critiques, but I've been driven crazy trying to find SPaG errors, thinking all the while that a 4 meant the reviewer had found an error, but wouldn't say what the error was. Kyle Colorado has been the only LM judge to name the SPaG errors he thought he saw.

All of the other parts of the critiques have been helpful, and I've kept a copy of every comment that I've received on every story that I've posted in the LM Challenge. A few I don't agree with, but those are just as helpful by letting me see my story through the eyes of someone else who may have a different world view. When, for example, a reviewer suggests adding a bit of humour to a story that, in my mind, was one long bit of comedy, ('Sex 1979') that tells me I've missed the mark badly.

I've decided to go back to posting in Fiction even though reviews there are few. I'll try again offering comments on others' works, though I feel less than adequate to do so, in hopes of stirring others to comment on what I post. If I were to continue posting in LM, no matter how much I appreciate the critiques, the SPaG snag would forever both irritate as well as make me wonder what the reviewer sees that I don't see, and whether counting off for SPaG was the result of seeing an error I've overlooked, or because of a failure in the more ethereal areas.

Best thing, leave it there.

Edit - Wait - One last point. The scores in all the other areas are meaningless. What has meaning are the critiques that go with the scores.


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