# Question about how 'probable cause' works for my story.



## ironpony (May 19, 2016)

In my story, I wrote it so that a cop is on duty getting some lunch or taking a break, and sees something that makes him suspicious. He sees two men frisk another guy for weapons or a wire. So he thinks that maybe something questionable may be going on.

He decides to watch as and follow discretely, possibly radioing it in, in the process.

The men then get in their cars and drive a short distance to a private residence, like a house or something like that. 

After waiting for them to go inside, the cop looks around through the windows but does not see anything. He goes around the corner to a small basement window, with a small opening. He looks inside, and sees a tied up hostage, and there is a kidnapping in progress, with the hostage tied up, and possibly blindfolded too, struggling to get out.

So the cop radios for back up again, and intervenes, when he sees that the hostage may be about to be harmed, and manages to save her, but also manages to arrest one of the kidnappers.

They charge him with kidnapping and other kidnapping related offences. But I was told by a lawyer, when doing some fact checking that the charges would not hold up in a court of law, because the cop had no probable cause.

Since the cop had to look around the house and look into a basement window to see the kidnapping, the probable cause is not 'immediately apparent', as the lawyer said, and the probable cause has to be immediately apparent for the charges to be stick and do any good.

What do you think? Is their a way to write it so the cop can discover a kidnapping that would not be in plain immediately apparent view, and on a private residence, where the suspect could be charged and have it hold up?


----------



## InstituteMan (May 19, 2016)

You probably should just get a criminal procedure nutshell, which is sort of like crib notes for law school. It isn't the so-called Black Letter Law, but it will get you close.


----------



## ironpony (May 20, 2016)

InstituteMan said:


> You probably should just get a criminal procedure nutshell, which is sort of like crib notes for law school. It isn't the so-called Black Letter Law, but it will get you close.



Okay thanks.  I read about the immediate apparent probable cause law, but there is something I do not understand.  A cop cannot go up to to house and look into the basement window to see what's going on.  If she spots a crime, and then calls it in, the evidence will not be admissible in court, because he trespassed on private land, by going up to the basement window and looking through it, in order to discover the crime.

However, the cops are allowed to go up to the front door of a building and knock on the door, to ask questions.  But what if the door is only a few feet away from the basement window.  How far away does the door have to be from the window for it to count as 'trespassing'?


----------



## Sleepwriter (May 21, 2016)

Most people would goto the front door first then if no one answered and they were reasonably sure someone was in there, goto another door.   If the cop was following someone to this house, he definitely would wait for backup before proceeding.


----------



## ironpony (May 21, 2016)

Sleepwriter said:


> Most people would goto the front door first then if no one answered and they were reasonably sure someone was in there, goto another door.   If the cop was following someone to this house, he definitely would wait for backup before proceeding.



Okay thanks.  But once back up arrives, are they allowed to go another door or look around, and possibly into the window, without it counting as trespassing in court, and have the case thrown out?


----------



## Sleepwriter (May 21, 2016)

let's think on this, the cop only witnessed someone being patted down, not forced into a car.   Be it odd to see that happen, not sure if a cop would follow them or not.   Now if they were forced into the car, then it would be on like Donkey Kong.


----------



## ironpony (May 22, 2016)

Sleepwriter said:


> let's think on this, the cop only witnessed someone being patted down, not forced into a car.   Be it odd to see that happen, not sure if a cop would follow them or not.   Now if they were forced into the car, then it would be on like Donkey Kong.



Okay thanks, you're right.  Wouldn't the cop think that something may be going down though, when someone is searched, like they are wearing a wire or being searched for a weapon?  Can you think of a reason to search a person for a wire or weapon, that does not involve some sort of criminal activity?

If that is not enough though, here is my scenario:  A gang of crooks want to give a new recruit a 'blood in'.  In case you do not know, it's a term where when a gang recruits a new member, the new member has to spill the blood of another person, to prove he is reliable to the gang, and also to make sure he is not a possible undercover cop.

So the gang goes to meet the new recruit, and searches him for a wire weapon or anything like that.  Once they see he is clean, they then take him to another indoor location to the do blood in.  However, I could write it so that maybe the cop sees the actual spilling of the blood of another person outdoors.  But would the gang really do that for a new recruit outdoors?

I mean it seems pretty foolish cause if they do that outdoors, someone can see, such as the cop for example, who happens to be able to see them.  That is why I wrote it so that the cop follows them to a house, and then peaks into the basement window to see it.  Basically for my story, I want the cop to discover a blood in, in progress, but I want him to have enough time to be able to stop it and save the victim, for the story to go a certain way.

So is their anything a cop can do to stumble upon a blood in, but in a legal way, where the probable cause would work, without any legal problems?  I could write it so that there are potential legal problems, but I do not want it to be so bad, the cop would not proceed.


----------



## Sleepwriter (May 22, 2016)

If the gang is at the point to do a blood in, they trust him.  If they suspected he might be working for the cops, this ain't happening.   they also wouldn't pat him down at one place then take him to where the initiation is going to happen.  


As for the pat down itself, yeah it would be weird to see it happen out in the open, which is why I don't think it would.


----------



## ironpony (May 22, 2016)

Okay thanks.  I read that the point of the blood in was to gain trust though, when researching it, or at least that's what they said, it was to weed out undercover cops.

And yes the pad down would happen someplace else.  However, would they want to take him to any particular building, with a hostage, for the blood in, before patting him down?  They would want to do it before taking him to the building, which is wear the cop would witness it from a far distance, no?


----------



## Sleepwriter (May 22, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  I read that the point of the blood in was to gain trust though, when researching it, or at least that's what they said, it was to weed out undercover cops.
> 
> And yes the pad down would happen someplace else.  However, would they want to take him to any particular building, with a hostage, for the blood in, before patting him down?  They would want to do it before taking him to the building, which is wear the cop would witness it from a far distance, no?



The point of the blood-in is to make them a full member, provided they pass/survive it.  Which means you've been discussed among the leaders and deemed worthy to join the group.   You would have earned their trust before this event.   The point of taking a hostage is to get something in return.  Killing your hostage is a last resort measure.    If anything, the gang would give him a gun,  and tell him to go kill someone random slob on the street or an opposing gang member. 

This is not a frat house stunt. 

It is gang, they kill, not see how close you would be willing to go.  Plus what better way to weed out undercover cop then have them actually kill someone.


----------



## ironpony (May 22, 2016)

Okay thanks.   He has already been discussed among the leaders and is already in, but now it's time to get in more fully.  They still search him for wires though, just in case.

In my story the hostage is actually a member of the same gang, posing as a hostage to see how far the new recruit would go.  Therefore if he was an undercover cop, or he couldn't do the blood in, the gang would not have a risk of being investigated for murder or kidnapping, since the hostage is one of them and it was all staged.

But there was a real case of this happening, when I did my research long before, which is what gave me the idea.  So why wouldn't the gang use a fake hostage, in case the new recruit was an undercover the whole time and they did not know it, until attempting to get someone to kill him.  What if was an undercover cop the whole time, and the undercover cop decided to retaliate against the gang, rather than kill someone?  The gang would then have a real hostage they would have to kill. If the undercover cop gets away, he can report the description of a real hostage, and that could be trouble for the gang, if they were to use a real one.

Even though trying to coerce a cop into killing a real person, can make the cop loose his credibility if he actually does it, I was told by cops in my research that they would never murder a helpless victim while undercover, no matter how much pressure or intimidation they were under.  If this is true, then the cop would run away and get out of there, and call for back up.  Then the gang would have a real victim witness on their hands, who they would either have to kill before back up arrives, or let go, only become a witness later against them likely.  So that's the reason why the gang uses a fake hostage, who is one of them, for insurance, in case the new recruit happens to be an undercover cop, cause you never know.   I cannot find the real life story where that happened, but I came across it in my research before.

Also in my story, the new recruit has been discussed among the leaders beforehand, but wouldn't he have to do some sort of test before the leader accepts him in fully?


----------



## Sleepwriter (May 22, 2016)

I guess we are venturing from your original question.   Would seeing someone being patted down out in public be enough for a cop to follow them, and then look around the house they wind up at.  Me personally, I don't think so.


----------



## ironpony (May 23, 2016)

I asked some people and got mixed opinions about that.  Two say yes, and a couple say no. One said that the police have investigated suspects with less cause of suspicion than witnessing a pat down, in real life.  What if it's more than being patted down though, like say they check the person's shoes for a wire as well?  The cop thinks 'well it's just a pat down, might not mean anything... wait, they checking his shoes now too'.


----------



## Sleepwriter (May 23, 2016)

I just don't believe, anyone other than cops or private security would pat anyone down in plain view of the public.   If they were in some kind of abandoned industrial complex, and the cop was there to investigate something else, like a break-in then maybe.


----------



## ironpony (May 23, 2016)

Okay thanks.  That works maybe.

So you don't think that for the blood in, they would get one of their own members to pose as a random victim, to see how far the new recruit would go?  I read that most gangs avoid murder if they can, because each murder that is committed, means that the police would have a possible chance of linking that murder to them, so they want to only kill if they have to.  So wouldn't they say, let's not really kill during the blood in, and just see how far he will go, because it's not a necessary murder to risk the police finding a body, since it's just a test anyway?


----------

