# Does anyone else struggle with making a solid plot? (1 Viewer)



## DarkGhost (Oct 15, 2018)

So I'm planning two books right now. One is a post apocalyptic and the other is a Fantasy. I've been getting some good results on the PA novel but the fantasy is terrible. I'm wanting to keep my plots interesting and original but I am having a heck of a time doing so. Does anybody have this problem?


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## Guard Dog (Oct 15, 2018)

I guess I'm one of the lucky ones, 'cause I've never had any trouble working up plots, stories, or characters.

My worst problem is that I've never had any interest in writing of it down, until very recently. And that's despite the fact I've probably written several million words on various forums, over the years.
( I've always preferred drawing or painting. )

Kind of ironic, isn't it? Good at talking, good at describing, good at imagining things most people never dream of... but not so great at writing a book.

Somewhere the gods and goddesses are laughing their collective asses off. :disgust:




G.D.


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## Ralph Rotten (Oct 15, 2018)

Sometimes you write a great story but it fails because the jacket text failed to interest the reader.
Great story, lousy blurb.
The problem you describe is kinda like that.
You are looking for a good book blurb to write.

I'd say just write the damned stories, and when you are done, then write the blurb. The story will likely change during the writing anyhow, so just write it, and when the time comes to write the jacket text...then you get creative...


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## Ralph Rotten (Oct 15, 2018)

And yes, for your first few books you will have trouble assembling a solid storyline because until you have written a few books, you will not have the experience to brew up a blockbuster plotline in your head.
It takes a while to gain that kind of experience. Like I always say; the first 200,000 words are just practice.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 15, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Like I always say; the first 200,000 words are just practice.



Glad to hear I'm nearly through "practicing" then... 8-[


G.D.


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## Theglasshouse (Oct 16, 2018)

You have to use your real life experiences to write a story though, or read a lot and imitate plots. No new plot exists under the sun.


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## Jack of all trades (Oct 16, 2018)

DarkGhost said:


> So I'm planning two books right now. One is a post apocalyptic and the other is a Fantasy. I've been getting some good results on the PA novel but the fantasy is terrible. I'm wanting to keep my plots interesting and original but I am having a heck of a time doing so. Does anybody have this problem?



Sometimes. I think everyone does, at times. If you can find someone to brainstorm with, that might help. Or just talk about fantasy books and find out what people like, and hate, about popular fantasy books. You might find inspiration that way. It's hard to be inspired by a vacuum.


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## Arachne (Oct 16, 2018)

Maybe just write the PA one for now, as you're having more success with it, and come back to the other one later. Unless there's some reason why you have to work on both at the same time? I can't imagine doing that, personally, as I struggle to keep up with one novel without throwing another in the mix! But I know some people work well that way.


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## DarkGhost (Oct 17, 2018)

A friend and I were wanting to write the fantasy but it's kinda on hold for a while, that's why I was doing two. But anyways I will definintly take your advice! Wish me luck. Please


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## Guard Dog (Oct 17, 2018)

Theglasshouse said:


> No new plot exists under the sun.



*"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."* 

There may or may not be any truly new ideas... But I'm betting there are quite a few that've never been written down, or are so seldom used as to be all but forgotten.

But that just means we all have to use the old ones in different ways, or get very very lucky and find one of those seldom-used variety.

Then again, at what point does mixing and matching generate an entirely new plot or thought? Anybody know?





G.D.


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## moderan (Oct 18, 2018)

There are infinite combinations of tropes and character. The only drawback is imagination.


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## bdcharles (Oct 18, 2018)

DarkGhost said:


> So I'm planning two books right now. One is a post apocalyptic and the other is a Fantasy. I've been getting some good results on the PA novel but the fantasy is terrible. I'm wanting to keep my plots interesting and original but I am having a heck of a time doing so. Does anybody have this problem?



I'm not quite sure what you mean by "solid" but as a fantasy writer myself, fantasy plots tend by and large not to seem massively original or even that fundamental, to me. The main character has to do something (often reluctantly) and a bunch of things conspire to stop them. You never know whether he or she is going to succeed, until the big denouement (usually a battle), but the main thing is that all this happens in a fabulous world that is rich with detail. Plot is there, of course, but things like themes and worldbuilding and character seem much more important. That is a reason I like the genre. If I want to do something original quickly I just subvert a trope (of which there are many). And remember - infodumping is the prequel that you just haven't written yet. 

So don't fret too much about originality. Just make your character want something and have fun stopping them getting it. Be a malevolent god.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 18, 2018)

moderan said:


> There are infinite combinations of tropes and character.



That's my own suspicion/belief. After all, there's only a certain number of elements that make up the entire universe... and fewer still that make up a human body and mind.



moderan said:


> The only drawback is imagination.



And that's something I think far too few people have enough of. Or at very least, too many make too little use of what they do have. Either way, the end result is the same.




G.D.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 18, 2018)

bdcharles said:


> So don't fret too much about originality. Just make your character want something and have fun stopping them getting it. Be a malevolent god.



I might add that sometimes a very fickle - and at least mildly confused - goddess often times proves to be as entertaining and useful as the antagonist(s)... Especially if she has rather combative and uncooperative relatives or siblings.

After all, a major plot twist can often times involve figuring out who, exactly, is the real source of trouble for the "hero". 





G.D.

P.S. I have a bit of an unfair advantage in one regard: Having several ex-wives, I find it painfully easy to put a mentally unstable, and not-entirely competent bitch in control of things, then sitting back and watching her bring chaos not only to others, but herself as well, as she tries to micro-manage the whole affair.


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## Arachne (Oct 18, 2018)

DarkGhost said:


> A friend and I were wanting to write the fantasy but it's kinda on hold for a while, that's why I was doing two. But anyways I will definintly take your advice! Wish me luck. Please



Good luck :thumbl: 

Do let us know how you're getting on with it.


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## DarkGhost (Oct 18, 2018)

You bring up a good point Guard Dog! I'll keep that in mind


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## Theglasshouse (Oct 18, 2018)

When I try to write an original story myself, I tend to run into plot problems. People don't feel compelled to read. However, guard dog now that you have quoted Shakespeare, most of his plots he wrote he took credit for from the contemporaries and storytellers of his day. According to something I read. What I want to do is not to do copy too much. But sometimes there are unexplored ideas. I like to write original things. Some of the fun is lost. I wish I could reverse this trend. I have such a story in mind where I saw a TV series, with my family and they used a very compelling happening. That I bet would rouse a reaction from readers. Borrow a plot if need be to get started. It would maybe then become more original as you give it your own unique spin on the story plot for instance. That was never planned. It's rewarding, to have some positive validation and be original, however borrowing a plot is a given for storytellers.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 18, 2018)

Theglasshouse said:


> However, guard dog now that you have quoted Shakespeare...



Heh... Just wait 'til I start in with Jack Nicholson doing Shakespeare.... "Ta be or goddam not ta be... that is the f**king question..." :devilish: 



G.D.


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## Ralph Rotten (Oct 18, 2018)

For me the hard part is less finding a good plotline or creating a complex storyline.
For me it's about finding really fun characters to populate those scenes.

Think about this: The movie Smokey & The Bandit made audiences cheer for a character who was a bootlegger, reckless endangerment, misogynistic, felon.  
Why?
Because people liked the character that Burt Reynolds portrayed.  
So when you are trying to dream up that blockbuster story idea, start with the characters.
Create someone fun in your mind, then pit them against your scenario.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 18, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> For me the hard part is less finding a good plotline or creating a complex storyline.
> For me it's about finding really fun characters to populate those scenes.




Ralph, you need to come play here: Finding ideas, creating story lines, developing plots, etc.

Oh, and Characters are next on my list of things to address. :icon_cheesygrin:

I want more input and feed back first though... gotta have a wall to bounce things off of, after all.



G.D.


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## DarkGhost (Oct 18, 2018)

Solid, A plot that makes sense within itself and is interesting without being too complex. 
You bring up a good point about making the character want somthing, that's somthing I'll have to try.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 18, 2018)

DarkGhost said:


> Solid, A plot that makes sense within itself and is interesting without being too complex.
> You bring up a good point about making the character want somthing, that's somthing I'll have to try.



Wait, hang on here a sec... How could your character NOT want something? Even if it's only out of the situation, or to be let the hell alone?

Is this a person or a fence post we're talking about?




G.D.


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## DarkGhost (Oct 18, 2018)

So just as a heads up, I'm going to be off the line for a bit, I'm going on a trip and am hoping to take advantage of some long driving time to get some writing in, hopefully I'll have the prologue done by the time I'm back. I'm just letting y'all who care (or not) know I'm not giving up on the thread.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 19, 2018)

DarkGhost said:


> I'm just letting y'all who care (or not) know I'm not giving up on the thread.



One, I'm guessing you're not doing the driving, otherwise you're either not gonna get where you're going, or you're not gonna get much writing done.

Two... I take it the vehicle you'll be taking doesn't have Wi-Fi... Otherwise you could keep up with the thread while you were on the road. 

... unless of course you're not gonna be taking a laptop with you. And you're some kind of mutant or alien that doesn't own a smartphone... ( Must be a long drive, back to your planet, if that's the case. )


G.D.


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## DarkGhost (Oct 19, 2018)

It's just a new way of approaching the story I hadn't thought about. Of course my character wants something. But I will have to do some more work on characters, so they aren't fence posts.


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## DarkGhost (Oct 19, 2018)

One: I'm not traveling alone. 
Two: the vehicle doesn't have wifi and the device I'm getting on the thread with is a pretty lame iPad that only will connect to wifi.
three: the reason I use the iPad is because I don't care wether it gets cookies or not. Unlike my phone which has all the sensitive stuff if ya know what I mean.


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## DarkGhost (Oct 19, 2018)

How in the heck do you post the person's reply above your own?


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## Guard Dog (Oct 19, 2018)

DarkGhost said:


> How in the heck do you post the person's reply above your own?



By hitting that "Reply with Quote" button right below their post.




G.D.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 19, 2018)

DarkGhost said:


> three: the reason I use the iPad is because I don't care wether it gets cookies or not. Unlike my phone which has all the sensitive stuff if ya know what I mean.



... and four, you don't know how to delete cookies. Or how to put software on your phone that'll guard you from anything nasty.

Gotcha.


G.D.

P.S. I've been playing with computers for over 30 years, and the only time I've had anything unpleasant end up on my computer was due to either blundering into something I didn't know was there, or due to someone else not taking the proper precautions with my work computer. I doubt very seriously that you'll end up "catching" anything unfortunate here on this forum.

Other than the occasional snarky remark, that is...


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## DarkGhost (Oct 19, 2018)

Guard Dog said:


> By hitting that "Reply with Quote" button right below their post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks!


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## DarkGhost (Oct 19, 2018)

Guard Dog said:


> Other than the occasional snarky remark, that is...


Ha! well thanks for understanding!


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## Guard Dog (Oct 19, 2018)

One last suggestion on the phone/Ipad thing... Have you ever tried using your phone as a hotspot for your Ipad to connect to the internet through?  I do that here whenever the power goes out during storms or whatever.





G.D.


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## Ralph Rotten (Oct 19, 2018)

That is usually an extra service he would have to pay for.
I had it for a while, phone was a hotspot.
Sucked tho. Always having to disconnect/reconnect...and the phone would disconnect the wifi when you tried to use the phone's browser...  what a PITA that was.

Happy writing, Ghost.


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## Annoying kid (Oct 19, 2018)

Guard Dog said:


> I guess I'm one of the lucky ones, 'cause I've never had any trouble working up plots, stories, or characters.
> 
> My worst problem is that I've never had any interest in writing of it down, until very recently. And that's despite the fact I've probably written several million words on various forums, over the years.
> *( I've always preferred drawing or painting. )*
> ...



Maybe the gods and goddesses are telling you the story should be a graphic novel instead.


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## DarkGhost (Oct 19, 2018)

Annoying kid said:


> Maybe the gods and goddesses are telling you the story should be a graphic novel instead.



I got it! The Balking Hen!


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## DarkGhost (Oct 19, 2018)

Seriously though, how many times have you started writing a book. You don't like one little thing in chapter 1 so you change it, then you find out the entire book has to be changed because of it. This is a big problem I have. Maybe it's because I don't have a "I'm just doing a draft" mentality.


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## H.Brown (Oct 19, 2018)

I think every writer comes across this issue DG, to me it's how our writing develops from first draft to second and on to the final draft. But that is just my opinion.


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## Pelwrath (Oct 19, 2018)

I’ve never planned to work on two stories, poems or books at the same time. I think most of us do such because of writers block or an idea coming to us at weird times.
Work on the one you’re most comfortable with. Time is on your side.


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## Jack of all trades (Oct 19, 2018)

DarkGhost said:


> Seriously though, how many times have you started writing a book. You don't like one little thing in chapter 1 so you change it, then you find out the entire book has to be changed because of it. This is a big problem I have.



If it causes the entire book to need changes, then it is certainly not a little change. At least I wouldn't think of it as such, even if the number of words added, deleted or changed is few. It must be a significant idea change to have such a cascade reaction.



DarkGhost said:


> Maybe it's because I don't have a "I'm just doing a draft" mentality.



I don't see what your mentality has to do with the amount of additional change an alteration causes.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 19, 2018)

Annoying kid said:


> Maybe the gods and goddesses are telling you the story should be a graphic novel instead.



Well since I'm over 100,000 words into this story already, the gods and goddesses can just get over it, and I'm just gonna have to get better at writing.


G.D.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 19, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> That is usually an extra service he would have to pay for.
> I had it for a while, phone was a hotspot.
> Sucked tho. Always having to disconnect/reconnect...and the phone would disconnect the wifi when you tried to use the phone's browser...  what a PITA that was.
> 
> Happy writing, Ghost.



Verizon
Unlimited Plan
Mid-range Samsung phone

No problems to speak of. And only costs me about $140 a month, even with the tablet and one other phone on the bill.

It also gives me 2 devices that'll hitch me up to the internet if I need to get there in a power-free situation.

And the moral of this story is to always keep your powder dry, and your batteries charged. :thumbl:

G.D.


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## Annoying kid (Oct 19, 2018)

Guard Dog said:


> Well since I'm over 100,000 words into this story already, the gods and goddesses can just get over it, and I'm just gonna have to get better at writing.
> 
> 
> G.D.



Could try it on the next one. You only live once.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 19, 2018)

Annoying kid said:


> Could try it on the next one. You only live once.



Next one? I'll count myself lucky if I live long enough to finish _this _story! 

I'm 20 chapter and 100,000+ words into what is no doubt just the first book in a fairly long series of books.

I have not even begun to scratch the surface of the story, or to really even get to the "juicy" parts of it.

I've not even gotten the entire cast together, nor visited more than a couple of the places this story goes.

But then, when you spend 30 years creating a world, that sort of thing just has to be expected, I guess.

Oh, and by the way, the reason I highlighted part of your quote up there is because in this story, people live many, many times. Reincarnation is the order of the day for most folks, even though they aren't aware of the fact. :wink:

Anyway, what I'm working on will no doubt represent my entire writing career, if I even have one. And any other story I write will be a branch or off-shoot of this one.

So I guess I'd better learn to love it.


G.D.

P.S.  Yeah, I'm basically a "One-Trick Pony". But ya gotta admit... it's a helluva trick.


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## Annoying kid (Oct 19, 2018)

> I've not even gotten the entire cast together, nor visited more than a couple of the places this story goes. But then, when you spend 30 years creating a world, that sort of thing just has to be expected, I guess


.

I don't see why. If you're saying you spent 30 years worldbuilding for this novel series, I would expect the writing to be easy. You must have planned the world to the last detail. You should be tearing into it.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 19, 2018)

Annoying kid said:


> I don't see why. If you're saying you spent 30 years worldbuilding for this novel series, I would expect the writing to be easy. You must have planned the world to the last detail. You should be tearing into it.



I wrote over 100,000 words the first month... How much more "tearing into it" do ya want???

The only reason I've slowed up is due to editing, and "life" getting in the way.

Also, I never had in mind to write it down in the first place. I just wrote up character outlines and profiles as a hobby, and to use for drawings. The story coming along was as much an accident as anything.

Well, and all those characters needing something to do... *shrug*


G.D.


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## Annoying kid (Oct 19, 2018)

Guard Dog said:


> I wrote over 100,000 words the first month... How much more "tearing into it" do ya want???
> 
> G.D.



A comic book. :distant:


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## Guard Dog (Oct 20, 2018)

Annoying kid said:


> A comic book. :distant:



I gave up on that idea 40 years ago.

Turns out, it just wasn't something I wanted to do. Still don't.

At this point, I'd rather just write it down, and hope I've got the time - and what it takes - to finish the job.

Especially since it's way too complicated for any comic book or graphic novel.
( I started collecting both of those things when I was 8 or 9 years old. So I know the medium pretty well. And they just won't cut it for this one. Not the way I want it done. )


G.D.


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## Annoying kid (Oct 20, 2018)

Guard Dog said:


> Especially since it's way too complicated for any comic book or graphic novel.
> ( I started collecting both of those things when I was 8 or 9 years old. So I know the medium pretty well. And they just won't cut it for this one. Not the way I want it done. )
> 
> 
> G.D.



Thats weird I thought the exact opposite for my trilogy, that prose wasn't detailed enough where it counts. (action/ descriptions)  Can we both be right? Time will tell.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 20, 2018)

Annoying kid said:


> Thats weird I thought the exact opposite for my trilogy, that prose wasn't detailed enough where it counts. (action)  Can we both be right? Time will tell.



The worst complication is that the workload for me goes up exponentially.

I would have to not only be the writer and editor, but also the penciler/designer, the inker, and anything else I'm currently forgetting.

And then I've gotta figure out how to make it fit that particular format, without having it turn into a thousand issues.

No freakin' thanks.

I've always been a good student, able to learn anything I've had an interest in fairly easily. And right now, I have an interest in learning to write a novel. Or a whole damn bunch of 'em, if that's what it takes.

So that's what I'm gonna do.


G.D.

P.S. You run into the same problem with comic books and action as you do with written works; you still have to cut the fights and such down to a bare minimum. You want proof of that, go look through a few of the old issues of Marvel's _Master of Kung Fu_, or _Iron Fist_. Their fights SUCK compared to what a real fight would be.

And no, I'm not gonna write a damned screen play either, even though a movie would do the job the best, as far as showing the action goes.


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## Annoying kid (Oct 20, 2018)

Guard Dog said:


> The worst complication is that the workload for me goes up exponentially.
> 
> I would have to not only be the writer and editor, but also the penciler/designer, the inker, and anything else I'm currently forgetting.
> 
> ...



 I find the inking role to be unnecessary with photoshop. Colourist too. Lots are in monochrome. But indeed it is a big investment of labour. However I think you shouldn't write a strict prose novel if you like drawing and instead use those skills to put images in to enhance the text. Much like with choose your own adventure books. Understand that almost everybody here can write, but few can write and draw. if you want to compete against them, you'd do well to have a wow factor that would draw people to your work should they flick through it. If I open a novel and I see pictures that looks interesting, I'd be much more inclined to want to read about it. It's a hook. 

With comics and fights, the way to do it is to take snapshots of the highlight moments that imply the in between moves, which the reader's brain fills in. That way one can make choreography that goes well beyond what any reader can imagine through prose. To the point where if I would switch main characters entirely if I had to adapt it to prose. One that plays to prose's strengths with more pathos, angst and doubt instead of the stubborn idealist with flashy moves.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 20, 2018)

Kid, I know how a comic is written and put together. I even still have a large box of 'em in the next room, as well as a stack of Graphic Novels in the cabinet behind my left shoulder. So you trying to school me on how it's done strikes me as hysterically funny.

I'm also aware that the "snapshot" technique works just as well in the written medium as it does the visual one, and takes less time.

So I'm not gonna be slaved to having to plan and draw that many panels of art. Not when I can write it in a quarter of the time it'll take to draw it.

And I sure as hell wouldn't use photoshop for any of it. I'm just old fashioned that way. ( I'm also a really good inker. )

You or anybody else wanna do it that way, be my guest.

I am not going to. I'd rather learn to write better. 

Oh, and I'm not competing with anyone but myself. Everyone else can do as they please.


G.D.

P.S. You're really living up to your screen name on this one. :wink:
Now if you'll excuse me for a bit, I'm gonna go back and watch a  couple more episodes of Daredevil, season 3 on NetFlix.


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## Sir-KP (Oct 20, 2018)

DarkGhost said:


> I've been getting some good results on the PA novel but the fantasy is terrible. I'm wanting to keep my plots interesting and original but I am having a heck of a time doing so. Does anybody have this problem?



Good results as in what? Other people you showed to enjoyed your PA work more or you just feel you've been writing smoothly and confidently?

IMO forget about trying to be original. There's been more than thousands of stories out there.

And I think in regards of making a solid plot, we just have to squeeze our idea even more and how much the juice is would really depend on our creativity.

For example, I'm not really into sci-fi related to extra terrestrial, space exploration, etc. If I force myself to make one (as I have tried last time), a lot of the ideas will sound cliche.


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## Annoying kid (Oct 20, 2018)

Guard Dog said:


> I'm also aware that the "snapshot" technique works just as well in the written medium as it does the visual one, and takes less time.
> 
> So I'm not gonna be slaved to having to plan and draw that many panels of art. Not when I can write it in a quarter of the time it'll take to draw it.
> 
> ...



You know very little if you think action choreography in comics is equivalent to prose.   

If prose could portray action well, so many people wouldn't skip action scenes in that medium. The best writers don't try to compete with a visual medium in that regard.

If you think it's alot of work to draw many panels, I invite you to re-read my prior post where I said the labour of a comic isn't for everyone, so mentioned doing it like choose your own adventure stories. Meaning you could easily put one image in every twenty or thirty pages of prose, which would immediately make you stand out from other writers. If you plan to publish, you are competing with other writers. There's no room for debate about that. 

You've planned this story for thirty years, claim you love drawing, yet balk at the suggestion to include some in your prose novel cos it's "Too much work". 

I find that hilarious.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 20, 2018)

Annoying kid said:


> Hilarious.



Yup... the fact that you think you know something about comics and graphic story-telling that I don't, very much is.

...but we've derailed this thread more than enough. So believe whatever you like. It's all the same to me.

I'll not discuss it any further here.  *tips hat*



G.D.


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## Annoying kid (Oct 20, 2018)

Guard Dog said:


> Yup... the fact that you think you know something about comics and graphic story-telling that I don't, very much is.
> 
> ...but we've derailed this thread more than enough. So believe whatever you like. It's all the same to me.
> 
> ...



I draw 120 pages of graphic novel a year. 
I have a fine arts degree. 
I've been drawing comic art for well over a decade. 

I know more than you. 

 PS, you can't lecture Ironpony about spending 5 years on his script when you've spent 30 years planning without putting prose on the page.


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## Guard Dog (Oct 20, 2018)

Annoying kid said:


> I know more than you.



Then why are you here?




By the way... I did the above drawing 34 years ago. 
It's one of the many thousands I've done in my lifetime.
That one was done for a local comics shop.



G.D.


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## Theglasshouse (Oct 20, 2018)

I think the key to making a good plot is knowing how to make conflict happen. What is everyone's point of view on this? I recently ordered a book that explains conflict from a dramatist's perspective. It won't arrive until thirty days from now. I think putting the word "but" to make a situation complicated, and giving a character a secret is key to creating conflict.

All conflict can be built with these two key pieces of advice.

A simple example could be to attain a goal. He wanted get back home but she was trapped in a world inside a portal. The secret could be she knows for example of a murder, that could prevent her from returning home. You see it complicated the situation and created a conflict.


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## ironpony (Oct 20, 2018)

I am not sure if this works for others but when I struggle with plot, the best I do is remind myself of what I am trying to say themewise, then I will come up with a plot turn, that best convey's that theme, and then build towards that plot turn.  Unless more than one plot turn will convey the same theme, in which case, I feel I should ask others which is best.


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## Theglasshouse (Oct 21, 2018)

I am trying to learn that writing method. There are very few books on that topic since few are qualified to teach how to plot with theme. I do plan to write using a theme for plotting a story. The explanations are not easy to grasp. The way to write a theme, is something Lajos Egri wrote about. The book I bought will provide me the explanation (it is professionally made). It is sponsored by the royal society. Writers don't like to share sometimes what they know. The book is to learn on how to write a play. It teaches his theory. It's a school program (and university program) and they hold a  contest each year based on the book's instruction and classes. It's also sponsored by a celebrity of hollywood who has a foundation: kevin spacey. Both of Jennifer Tuckett's books talk about it (both can be found and bought on amazon). I plan to buy the series every year it is released. It has gotten good reviews.


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