# The Bards' Bistro



## Selorian

Come in, grab a seat, have a drink and a bite to eat while enjoying general LM Poetry Challenge discussions, questions, and the like.

*_Please be advised that only challenge and score threads are allowed within the LM Poetry Challenge forum. All questions and discussions should take place here in The Bards' Bistro._


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## Selorian

Sorry for the delay, we're now open for posting.


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## Baron

Selorian said:


> Sorry for the delay, we're now open for posting.


The time that you've taken in setting this up is appreciated.  It's great to see that it's moving forward.

8)


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## Selorian

You're very welcome.  I want to make sure that your baby is well looked after and done right.  Again, thank you for all the work you did getting this challenge started.

There's now a sticky at the top of the poetry forum titled LM Poetry Challenge and provides a link inside to this forum.


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## Pete_C

Bistro?

Couldn't we have had something more fitting, like a seedy bar or a Chinese opium den?


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## Selorian

Attribute the appellation to my atrocious attempt at alliteration.

See, I'm horrendously bad at it.


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## Pete_C

Poets' Pisshouse?

Rhymers' Rombustuous Rotunda of Revulsion?

Versifiers' Veritable Vaginal...

No, thinking about it, Bistro is good!


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## wheelz1138

Though when I read the word "bard", I think of Shakespeare, who I can be fairly certain never entered a bistro.


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## Baron

wheelz1138 said:


> Though when I read the word "bard", I think of Shakespeare, who I can be fairly certain never entered a bistro.


Bard is a druid term, still used, relating to poets who traditionally veiled the Druid mysteries in their verse.  End of trivial pursuits session


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## Pete_C

The bloke who played Ken Barlow in Corrie was a druid; I saw him at Stonehenge in the murky past. He was blowing some horn thing, I was tripping. We didn't speak; I thought it best not to. That was the year I told some Druid bint with a large chest that she could have health, wealth and happiness if she'd let me violate her pooper.

Ah, those new age days.


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## Baron

Pete_C said:


> The bloke who played Ken Barlow in Corrie was a druid; I saw him at Stonehenge in the murky past. He was blowing some horn thing, I was tripping. We didn't speak; I thought it best not to. That was the year I told some Druid bint with a large chest that she could have health, wealth and happiness if she'd let me violate her pooper.
> 
> Ah, those new age days.


I just knew that we were sure to get some intelligent chat going here.  ](*,)


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## d.b.potts

What is an LM poetry challenge exactly?


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## Ilasir Maroa

Just a formal version of Baron's poetry contest.


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## huni

This seems as good a place as any to say thanks for your votes for my poem and the other winners,congrats. To Baron for getting it started, to selorian and cran and pete and ilasir foxee and all the others I have missed for all the efforts to set this (the above) up for all of us poets here. I really like the judging criteria and will print it of for my writing book, so as to have a good guide to make poems by. again thanks, huni


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## Selorian

Thank you, Huni.  I hope that the LM Poetry Challenge continues to be as fun and exciting for all of our poets as it always was in the Poetry forum.

Which brings me to:
The next challenge is officially underway.

I was a few hours late in posting it, due to being under the weather and entertaining in-laws over the weekend, but it is up now.  

*The theme for this challenge, as submitted by Baron, is* _*theatre*_.

Also, give a round of applause to your judges for this round:
* Ilasir Maroa
rcallaci
Pete C
Shawn*

My personal thanks to each of them for graciously agreeing to judge. All four of you rock to the extreme!


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## Selorian

Submissions for the 'theatre' LM Poetry Challenge is now closed.

There are thirteen terrific entries.  Thank you to everyone who participated.

One of the main ideas behind the 'people's choice' vote was to help narrow the field of entries to make judging not so hard because of volume.  Since there are only thirteen, should we move straight to the judging round, or should we go ahead and do a people's choice vote?


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## Baron

Selorian said:


> Submissions for the 'theatre' LM Poetry Challenge is now closed.
> 
> There are thirteen terrific entries. Thank you to everyone who participated.
> 
> One of the main ideas behind the 'people's choice' vote was to help narrow the field of entries to make judging not so hard because of volume. Since there are only thirteen, should we move straight to the judging round, or should we go ahead and do a people's choice vote?


I see no problem with going straight to the judging round.


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## Pete_C

Well, there's only actually 12 entries, because as a judge I just posted mine for fun.


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## Baron

A few people who would usually submit a poem haven't been on the board for one reason or another over the last few weeks. I'm hoping that there'll be a better response to the next one.


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## Ilasir Maroa

Let's just go straight to the judging.


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## Selorian

I agree with going straight to the judging round.  I'll let the judges know and we'll post the winners next Monday.

I believe the next challenge will have more entries.  I think some may have wanted to see how the first one worked out before they gave it a try.


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## vangoghsear

Selorian said:


> I think some may have wanted to see how the first one worked out before they gave it a try.


I'm afraid that fear governs us in ways that scare us.  8)


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## Ilasir Maroa

vangoghsear said:


> I'm afraid that fear governs us in ways that scare us. 8)


 

Fear scares us... what an astute observation...  just kidding.


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## Cran

he's right, I'm afraid ... ale:  ... #-o


Now that we've completed one challenge under the _LM_ banner - 
and extra thanks to *Selorian* for launching _LM Poetry_ in its own section; 
more generous than I'd dared hope when the idea was being discussed - 
I'd be very interested in some feedback from the judges regarding the assessment format, especially as I noted some comments in the scoring.

Was the 10 section/100 point format suitable for your needs? 
Was there a balance of criteria -
Too much or not enough emphasis on any aspect?
Objective and subjective latitude? 
Any aspect superfluous or missing altogether? 

Importantly, how strongly do the criteria rely upon or assume 
a practical knowledge of the craft of poetry? 

I don't want to preempt any answers by putting my view on this, 
but I believe it would be a valuable exercise and a progressive step 
towards the ongoing evolution of the poetry challenge. 

I'd also be interested in *Selorian*'s experience, as the administrator of the challenge - 
have the steps and stages moved as smoothly as anticipated?
Is the combined load manageable? 
Are there any aspects where we, as interested participants, can improve our contribution?


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## Baron

I'd be interested in seeing some real discussion here instead of in the poetry forum


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## Ilasir Maroa

Baron said:


> I'd be interested in seeing some real discussion here instead of in the poetry forum


 
Baron... I think they've already snet that horse off to the glue factory...:joker:


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## Selorian

You're welcome, Cran.  It was my pleasure getting this set up.

As far as running it, things went pretty smoothly.  It isn't any harder than running one of the LM Challenges, which is that the set up and the final tallying takes some time.  Other than that, it isn't bad.  I imagine that could change, though, depending on the number of entries.

I asked each of the judges to give me their thoughts on the judging system after they used it.  They are more than welcome to post those thoughts here for discussion.  I think that their insight will be helpful in making any necessary adjustments to the system to insure it works the best it can in providing a thorough, honest, and fair method of judging.

The only thing I ask is that it remains a real discussion and that it doesn't degrade into arguments, as some of the earlier discussions did.


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## wheelz1138

I enjoyed this competition. it got me to get my brain seriously working on an idea I'd already been developing. From a personal perspective, I think the judging system works, but some tweaking could help. We should focus slightly more on a judge's opinion of entries, and a bit less on the technical aspects. I feel that could help some future scores. A poem needs to feel like a poem, but I don't think it needs to necessarily be technically impressive.

Secondarily, I think this has been addressed before, but since judging is over, is it ok to display my poem in the regular review area?


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## Baron

wheelz1138 said:


> I enjoyed this competition. it got me to get my brain seriously working on an idea I'd already been developing. From a personal perspective, I think the judging system works, but some tweaking could help. We should focus slightly more on a judge's opinion of entries, and a bit less on the technical aspects. I feel that could help some future scores. A poem needs to feel like a poem, but I don't think it needs to necessarily be technically impressive.
> 
> Secondarily, I think this has been addressed before, but since judging is over, is it ok to display my poem in the regular review area?


I've already posted mine there :grin:  although so far it's received no comments :scratch:  I understand that as long as the judging is finished there's no problem.


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## wheelz1138

And why would Baron, only 44 points shy of a perfect competition score need additional critiquing from us? It's the lowly entries who only got into the 200's and below who need you!


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## Cran

Selorian said:


> You're welcome, Cran.  It was my pleasure getting this set up.
> 
> As far as running it, things went pretty smoothly. It isn't any harder than running one of the LM Challenges, which is that the set up and the final tallying takes some time. Other than that, it isn't bad. I imagine that could change, though, depending on the number of entries.


Thanks *Selorian* ... we can keep a weather eye on that aspect as things settle into shape and the challenge picks up momentum again ... 



> I asked each of the judges to give me their thoughts on the judging system after they used it. They are more than welcome to post those thoughts here for discussion. I think that their insight will be helpful in making any necessary adjustments to the system to insure it works the best it can in providing a thorough, honest, and fair method of judging.


Absolutely ... 



> The only thing I ask is that it remains a real discussion and that it doesn't degrade into arguments, as some of the earlier discussions did.


Agreed ...


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## rcallaci

Ladies and gentleman

When I first saw the judging guidelines I nearly put a fist through my head. They were quite intimidating and detailed at first glance. I’ve been writing for thirty years or so but never formally studied poetry or literature in a university setting. My first reaction was one needed a graduate degree in Literature or serious formal study in poetry to follow those guidelines to a tee. My grad degree was in philosophy so that left me out. I learned poetry through self study, trail and error, poetry readings, writing groups and just plain writing. Stuff like meter, flow, assonance, alliteration,
Rhyme schemes, tone, mood, word count, form, style, syllable count and a myriad other technical aspects of poetry I learned by writing the poetry by my inner ear and my sense of rhythm. Later on I learned the technical words for what I was doing. 
Till this day when I do poetry or read it I go by my inner ear on whether it flows and feels right. So that’s how I judged it. I used the 10 areas as guidelines only and mainly went with my inner ear. 

I think the guidelines are quite good and that the judges should have leeway in how they interpret them. Shawn did the most intensive scoring or followed the guidelines to the letter (I was quite impressed but to do something like that would have took me a hell of a long time)Ilasir also was technically proficient in the judging. Pete –C I feel was more like me in the judging. Now I don’t know any of the judges personally but I would guess that Shawn and Ilasir have a formal Lit background while Pete and I are in the self inner ear category. I may be wrong but my point is that we should keep it as it is and that the judges should interpret the guidelines according to there strong points and background.

my warmest
bob


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## Ilasir Maroa

I really wanted to pull a Shawn, as that was my method when Baron ran the judged Challenge; but my time was too limited. My comments were mostly left in generalities, and there was much more going on inside my head. I think that Shawn's format was the best, simply because it adressed everything in some detail. On the other hand, it can take some time to go that far. I think each judge should go as far as they feel it is important.


When bob talks about his inner ear, I think that for the purpose of the challenge, that may be the best way to go. Poetry is, of course, very subjective, and the guidelines(scoring formats) are accordingly open to the judge's own interpretation. I went more by the general guidelines than I could have wished, simply to get the scores in on time. That's not to say that I didn't put in a fair amount of effort, but I certainly didn't go so far as to scan meter, or do syllable counts. The many formats were far too varied to judge on such a level for each poem. I think that the open categories in the scoring format like "Impact" and "power, beauty, etc." are very important because they allow for the judge to exercise the necessary discretion to fairly judge the slew of styles. 

On the technical side, I think a little too much emphasis was placed on alliteration and rhyme scheme. There are so many other poetic devices and structural components. Perhaps those categories might be renamed to include the less common aspects. Maybe they could be replaced with something like "rhetorical device"(ie, anaphora, rhyme, repetition, hendiadys, litotes and others) and maybe "sound device"(as general as I could get. Includes the original three and also more in-depth things such as phonological patterns*a more elem,ental version of assonance and consonance for those die-hards out there*).

I think such categories would fit with the original spirit of allowing alternatives to the stereotypical conventions of poetry, and might especially benefit those contestants who write free-verse.  Free-verse can be hard to judge, but often uses the aforementioned rhetorical devices, and other less common figures of speech.


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## Baron

wheelz1138 said:


> And why would Baron, only 44 points shy of a perfect competition score need additional critiquing from us? It's the lowly entries who only got into the 200's and below who need you!


Seriously, it's good to get reader feedback. :read:


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## Baron

> by Shawn...
> Assonance and Alliteration - 10
> I give a 10 for this score, and all the rest of the scores, because I’m not quite sure why only these two schemes of repetition are singled out.


 
Although I understand what Shawn is saying here I think that this particular area is potentially the most important when it comes to fairly judging free verse alongside formally structured verse.  I think that serious attention should be paid to Ilasir's comments on this.



> by Ilasir Maroa...
> On the technical side, I think a little too much emphasis was placed on alliteration and rhyme scheme. There are so many other poetic devices and structural components. Perhaps those categories might be renamed to include the less common aspects. Maybe they could be replaced with something like "rhetorical device"(ie, anaphora, rhyme, repetition, hendiadys, litotes and others) and maybe "sound device"(as general as I could get. Includes the original three and also more in-depth things such as phonological patterns*a more elem,ental version of assonance and consonance for those die-hards out there*).


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## Pete_C

I tended to use the headings of the ratings, but used my own interpretations of what was good or bad. I agreed with some of the notes for each, and disagreed with his opinion on other elements. It's important that people don't just follow the opinion of the original draftor of the structure, despite the structure working well. We could almost do with an edited version of the structure that explains what marks are for, but removes his opinion of what is good and what is bad. I don't mind knocking up a copy for debate if anyone wants!

The only issue I had was with some of the scores. Two poems got 100/100, whilst another poem got 0/100. That's one big variance right there. To me, any poem achieving 100/100 is perfection. There's nothing to add, nothing to take away, it's up there with the greats. No disrespect to the writers who got 100/100, but I dare say even they wouldn't pin their efforts up there with the classics. Equally, with 0/100, how can any attempt have absolutely no redeemable features? To me, it's as silly as a poem rating 100/100.

It must be decided sooner rather than later what we are rating against. Are we rating against all poetry, thereby reserving 100/100 for the classics, or are we rating against and only against other entries, thereby making 100/100 almost mandatory for the best poem?


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## Cran

wheelz1138 said:
			
		

> I think the judging system works, but some tweaking could help. We should focus slightly more on a judge's opinion of entries, and a bit less on the technical aspects. I feel that could help some future scores. A poem needs to feel like a poem, but I don't think it needs to necessarily be technically impressive.


Thanks for the input, *wheelz1138* ... I would have to wonder, though, how many poems have been lifted above the ordinary without being technically impressive in some fashion? 



			
				rcallaci said:
			
		

> Ladies and gentleman


 the _gentleman_ has to be *Baron*, I guess ... 


> When I first saw the judging guidelines I nearly put a fist through my head. They were quite intimidating and detailed at first glance... My first reaction was one needed a graduate degree in Literature or serious formal study in poetry to follow those guidelines to a tee...


I had much the same impression, *rcallaci* ... it was part of the reason for the earlier questions ... 


> Till this day when I do poetry or read it I go by my inner ear on whether it flows and feels right. So that’s how I judged it. I used the 10 areas as guidelines only and mainly went with my inner ear.
> 
> I think the guidelines are quite good and that the judges should have leeway in how they interpret them... I may be wrong but my point is that we should keep it as it is and that the judges should interpret the guidelines according to there strong points and background.


Thanks again, *rcallaci* ... 



			
				Ilasir Maroa said:
			
		

> I really wanted to pull a Shawn, as that was my method when Baron ran the judged Challenge; but my time was too limited... I think each judge should go as far as they feel it is important...
> 
> ... Poetry is, of course, very subjective, and the guidelines(scoring formats) are accordingly open to the judge's own interpretation. I went more by the general guidelines than I could have wished, simply to get the scores in on time... The many formats were far too varied to judge on such a level for each poem. I think that the open categories in the scoring format like "Impact" and "power, beauty, etc." are very important because they allow for the judge to exercise the necessary discretion to fairly judge the slew of styles.
> 
> On the technical side, I think a little too much emphasis was placed on alliteration and rhyme scheme... Maybe they could be replaced with something like "rhetorical device"(ie, anaphora, rhyme, repetition, hendiadys, litotes and others) and maybe "sound device"(as general as I could get. Includes the original three and also more in-depth things such as phonological patterns*a more elem,ental version of assonance and consonance for those die-hards out there*).
> 
> I think such categories would fit with the original spirit of allowing alternatives to the stereotypical conventions of poetry, and might especially benefit those contestants who write free-verse. Free-verse can be hard to judge, but often uses the aforementioned rhetorical devices, and other less common figures of speech.


Thanks *Ilasir* ... now I have some new words to look up ... 



Pete_C said:


> I tended to use the headings of the ratings, but used my own interpretations of what was good or bad. I agreed with some of the notes for each, and disagreed with his opinion on other elements. It's important that people don't just follow the opinion of the original draftor of the structure, despite the structure working well. We could almost do with an edited version of the structure that explains what marks are for, but removes his opinion of what is good and what is bad. I don't mind knocking up a copy for debate if anyone wants!


 Thanks *Pete_C* ... it may yet come to that; would it be difficult to address the aspects emphasised by the others? 



> The only issue I had was with some of the scores. Two poems got 100/100, whilst another poem got 0/100. That's one big variance right there. To me, any poem achieving 100/100 is perfection. There's nothing to add, nothing to take away, it's up there with the greats. No disrespect to the writers who got 100/100, but I dare say even they wouldn't pin their efforts up there with the classics. Equally, with 0/100, how can any attempt have absolutely no redeemable features? To me, it's as silly as a poem rating 100/100.


 That might depend on the set benchmarks of the scoring system, as much as on interpretation - I recall many school and university assignments and tests where I scored full marks; does that of itself make my work perfect? No, it just means I achieved the benchmarks required to get that score, without messing up enough to lose marks. 

That said, I agree that 100% did seem rather generous, and 0% rather harsh - but again, that's where interpretation and judge's prerogative can affect an outcome ... 



> It must be decided sooner rather than later what we are rating against. Are we rating against all poetry, thereby reserving 100/100 for the classics, or are we rating against and only against other entries, thereby making 100/100 almost mandatory for the best poem?


 Or, against arbitrary benchmarks, thereby allowing for multiple entries achieving the maximum score? 


Thanks again, guys - I think we're starting to see what is good, and where some things could use a change in emphasis, in the assessment criteria ... 

I think that if I were judging, I'd end up using the format I worked out before ... and multiplying the result by five ...

added: One thing I do like about this time around, is that the scores for individual aspects were included, as well as the totals ... 
I did the same when I judged that earlier challenge, but those component scores had to be removed before submitting for posting ...


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## Ilasir Maroa

Pete, I'd really love to see what you come up with.  I did notice a bit of opinionizing.

Cran, now may be the time to remind us all of your old idea.  Perhaps we can raid all suggested formats, and come up with a compromise that fits the most possible criteria without getting too complicated.


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## Cran

Mine was based on the earlier _LM_ guide which was the recommended form when I judged _moon or moonlight_ ... 

One point I did not clarify earlier - where the phrase (if any) appears, it is simply an acknowlegdment that a given device or approach might not be used - the lack of a given device or approach was not of itself a reason to deduct points; rather, it was intended to assess correctness or at least self consistency if any such device or approach was included. 

Whilst it's theoretically possible to score a 0/20, or a 20/20, instances of either should be rare in the extreme; as 60% of the score is subjective, the judge's prerogative will determine the outcome. 



> *A proposed guideline for panel reviews *is included below. Scoring is out of twenty.
> The guideline includes components for _objective _and _subjective_ assessment.
> As artistic judgements are considered paramount, the scoring components are therefore weighted towards the _subjective_ assessment (12/20). The highest cumulative score in the final tally shall be considered the winner(s) of *the panel of review*.
> 
> _Elements of English expression:_
> Spelling and appropriate word use/vocabulary;
> Self consistent and appropriate punctuation (if any);
> Apt title;
> phrase/clause comprehension -
> * /4 points*.
> 
> 0/4 – Illegible or unreadable .
> 1/4 – Multiple classes of errors.
> 2/4 - Consistent minor error/s.
> 3/4 – No obvious flaws, competent and effective composition.
> 4/4 - Masterful use of language and phrasing.
> 
> _Elements of Poetry:_
> Self consistent and conforming poem type (if any);
> Apt use of poetic, Middle English, foreign or otherwise exotic word forms (if any);
> Known or accepted literary devices (if any)
> ?? (anything specific to the craft of poetry that is not included above)
> */4 points.*
> 
> 0/4- None.
> 1/4 – Erratic or uninteresting structure.
> 2/4 - Effective yet inconsistent.
> 3/4 – Consistently suitable structure.
> 4/4 – Appropriately fitting and flawlessly framed.
> 
> 
> *Effectiveness: *
> The remaining 12 points are allocated at the reviewer’s discretion.
> Elements to consider might include -
> 
> _Addressing the theme:_
> Concept, connectedness, centrality;
> Approach, form, originality;
> Image, flow, emotional tone
> 
> _Addressing the reading:_
> Aesthetic elements (visual, vocal, aural appeal);
> Empathetic, evocative, or their antitheses (emotional, sensual appeal);
> Interest, enjoyment (thematic, intellectual appeal)
> */12 points.*
> 
> Every scored entry should be accompanied by a brief review; consider highlighting strengths and weaknesses, suggestions (if any), and overall appeal.


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## Selorian

I can see where the Assonance and Alliteration category needs to be expanded.  As far as the 100 point scores, that was actually addressed in the judging system.



> With an honest rating, an average poem should score somewhere close to 50 - with five points from each category. A good to very good poem should rate in the sixties to the lower eighties. It should take an exceptional poem to rate in the upper eighties. Scores of ninety and above should be reserved for the truly great poems.


It may need some clarification of what truly great poems are being referred to, though...published poems or poems within the competetion.


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## Cran

From the phrasing, and the comparatives, *Selorian*, I'd interpret that as judged against all poetry, not simply within the set of entries ... 

I would also interpret that the author expects a fairly even spread of points across the board - ie, that if one aspect is particularly poor (or average, exceptional, etc), then it will be more or less true of the other aspects ...


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## wheelz1138

Cran, I personally find your judging system better. I'd think it would be easier to tally scores when less factors are involved and given better guidelines, and also would help to even out scores better than we had in this previous competition. With only 90 points separating first and tenth place, yet 122 between tenth and 12th, there was a definite disparity.


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## Ilasir Maroa

Cran's system is much more subjective, leaving the scores in the judges hands with little objective benchmarking.  That is not bad, but it does leave open the possibility that some poems may not get the score they deserve.  I think the ease of tallying scores is a pro, but I don't see how the system involves the "better guidelines" mentioned by wheelz.  I think we should wait and see if pete comes up with a good modification of the current system before making any decisions.


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## Selorian

I'm not trying to be the bad guy here, but shouldn't there be some approval from staff for rewrites of the system before it is just assumed that is what's going to happen?


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## Ilasir Maroa

Oh.. of course.  Which is why I advocated waiting.  I only asked for Cran's ideas as a basis for discussion.  I look back now and realize that it does seem like we had alreadt decided on a change.  I can't speak for the others, but I personally agree that the staff should be the instigator of any actual changes.  Sorry for getting so carried away...](*,):shock:


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## Cran

Selorian said:


> I'm not trying to be the bad guy here, but shouldn't there be some approval from staff for rewrites of the system before it is just assumed that is what's going to happen?


It's only a discussion, *Selorian* ... 
please don't assume it's anything more than that, yet ... 

it's a discussion arising from comments made by judges and others, 
and something you also advocated, if I recall ... 
and something in which you have been participating - 
I haven't seen any decisions being made, only opinions and ideas ... 

*Pete_C* had some ideas about excising the opinion, and clarifying some aspects, of the format used, and offered to draft it  - 
I think we'd like to see that at least before even thinking about 
committing to any resolutions, or requesting any changes from staff ...


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## Shawn

In regards to the "Alliteration and Assonance" category, I felt that, in light of all rhetorical study, alliteration and assonance could be considered relatively minor.

A short list of rhetorical terms, including some of the schemes and tropes of poetry is in the right frame on this site:

Silva Rhetoricae: The Forest of Rhetoric

There are many, many more, which is why I felt that poems should be judged on their mastery of figurative language, not necessarily minor qualities in repetition.

Bob, my background in literature spreads only back to five years of adolescent passion; I'm by no means an expert on poetry or what comprises good poetry. In a lot of ways, most of the things I know are unnecessary in modern terms. Who really wants to call a pun a paronomasia? Or substitution as paraphrasis? Or who wants to know what a pysma is?

Ha... I make myself laugh sometimes. Sorry. Just a bit of bomphiologia for me.

The simple point is... any poem is complex. And for what we're doing here, I think the "inner ear" approach is much better in the long run. Unless we procure rhetorical doctorates.

A lot of what I found missing in the entries was metaphor. A simple device, yes, but it does powerful things. Contrasting complex themes with simple, everyday situations can do much to increase the power of the message. Using rhetorical devices can do even more to do that. Studying your craft, especially when it comes to poetry, is important; but I don't think it's more important than the message.

I digress.

I felt that my responses, especially toward the end entries, did not provide any real constructive criticism; and for that, I apologize. 

The simple truth of this particular contest was, as I believe the scores show, Baron constructed a poem that put us in a situation to which a lot of poets can relate, he connected us with the emotions and the senses, and he brought us through a complete journey (emotionally) from beginning to end in a short period of time. And, in that, it was an excellent work. Poets must realize, from their participation here, that we must move away from general statements of a situation or a theme or a setting, and we must bring the poem to the reader, slap them about the face, and tell them how it is. I view the contest as improving a craft and moving forwards. Judging against each other is not going to make progress, but it will lead to stagnation. I think Pete's poem, which was not tallied due to his being a judge, is comparable to Baron's in the fact that it put the reader in a situation that, though not stark, was recognizable and translatable.

And, though it may be taboo to mention, Voodoo's poems (hush) were quite like this, and though I didn't tell it to him enough, his poetry did spark emotions and bedazzled the senses, at times. Look at these examples and look at the classics and memorize them. It's through this that we can begin to understand the inner workings of a piece and compose our own.

Some aren't cut out for heavy verse. I very rarely write anything heavy because not a profound thought has spilled through my pen and onto the paper. Light poems that recall a sense or an emotion can evoke just as much change as _The Wasteland_, even. Hughes, Dickinson, and Whitman are good examples of people that can pull off light verse.

I just keep rambling.

Anyway, I feel that the judging system was a good representation of what a score should be. It could be improved and modified to suit a more modest means; but I think that, as writers, we should hold ourselves just as accountable as any great has ever been.


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## Ilasir Maroa

I agree with Shawn that three kinds of repetition does not a good category make.  Rhetoric is so much more.  A more general category of rhetorical devices would be much more conducive to accurate scores.  Even rhyme and rhythm could fall under the category of rhetoric in that they are manipulations of speech that give power and vividness to normal words.  


As to constructive criticsim, none of my responses offered anything even on the verge of being comparable to those of Shawn, or Cran in the Poetry Section Challenges.  I think that while subjective categories allow for more use of the "inner ear," more detailed categories and descriptions would be better for constructive reviews from the judges.  If we do decide to effect changes to the current system, the value of rhetoric in poetry, and the value of detailed benchmarks in the creation of constructive critiques need to be given considerable weight.


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## wheelz1138

Ilasir: on the previous page you mentioned my previous post and my use of the phrase "better guidelines"... I believe I was misunderstood. I meant better guidelines as to what is expected in judging criteria. Either way, I'm happy with however future competitions are judged. I write how I write, and that will remain the same. I just feel bad for those lowest scores in the last competition. My input in this discussion is now over, as I pushed my way in unfairly anyway.


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## Selorian

wheelz, the discussions is open to all.  That is why we're having it here.  I just didn't want anyone to think that something was going to happen before it did.  Rushing to conclusions was one of the problems the previous discussions suffered from.  It seemed best to try to keep people from being disappointed.

I'll come back to this when I'm not so tired and am making more sense.


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## d.b.potts

I hate to chime in uninvited, but I do really like Cran's idea for scoring. It leaves more room for stylistic differences, and it gives the judges more room to play with. I would rather be scored on general merit than technical aptitude.

But I'm easy.

Regards,
d.b.


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## Ilasir Maroa

But poetry is all about the creative use of the technical aspects.  By which I mean you use the techniques of poetry to convey your meaning in a pleasing and powerful way.  I think what people are saying is that multiple categories for different kinds of technique are less palatable, because it may force the poems to bejudged on points that aren't part of their intended design.  I think that it is important to consider, though, that a poem with so few technical aspects as to be negatively affected by a reasonable group of categories would be a sparse and undercut piece indeed.


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## wheelz1138

Selorian, I just feel like I'm not really adding much to the discussion. I also feel my words are being construed to give the belief that I think the technical aspects to poetry aren't important. I disbelieve that. They are important, but to be judged mainly by that is a flawed system. Poetry is also about feeling and message, which the current system only slightly addresses. A more balanced system would be more appropriate, such as Cran's.


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## Ilasir Maroa

Wheelz, you are adding to the discussion.  And no one is trying to misconstrue your words.  I personally am simply trying to understand your point of veiw.  Technical aspects are by no means the be-all and end-all of poetry.  

But the current system has three or five categories that are in essence asking the judges to allocate points on the general merit of the piece.  These include: Overall Impact, Originality, Form and Flow, Beauty/Power/Education/Entertainment, and possibly even Polish.  

That makes exactly half of the score dependent on less than technical aspects of the piece.  The technical categories are grossly misleading.  That is why I have advocated a large widening of these categories to include as many methods and techniques as possible.  Assonance and Alliteration, and Rhyme and Meter are gross oversimplifications, and ought to be revised to allow for more subjective, less focused categories of poetic technique.


Reading through Cran's categories, I see no real improvement on the problems presented in the curren model.  Cran's is much more general, of course, but is also less informative as to what certain elements actually represent.  

The reason I have pushed so much to keep as large an amount as possible of points based on technical aspects is that no single person here understands even a majority of poetic techniques.  

I think that maybe the best thing to do would be to modify the current system in the direction of Cran's but include examples of technical aspects that should be loked for by the judges.  

Rather than tell the judges what to look for, I think it would be better to have a small number of more general technical categories, and merely provide supplementary information as to the individual techniques.  This avoids putting undue emphasis on technical aspects, while making sure that clever use of said techniques is recognized and adressed in the final scoring.

I hope I have not put my foot in my mouth here.  I am merely offering my opinion on the way to best give proper weight to all relevany aspects of poetry, and am certainly open to alteration of my ideas to better fit the wishes of the majority of participating (in this discussion) poets and administrators.


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## wheelz1138

As I said before, I haven't added anything to this discussion, in that I can't express the true meaning of anything I've said here. I also think I keep repeating myself, in an attempt to do so, yet failing. I enjoy writing, though know little of the technical aspects of poetry. Let those who are more adept at judging be judges and decide how to judge. I'll just keep writing.


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## Olly Buckle

Ilasir:- The reason you have pushed technical aspects to be used is that no-one understands technical aspects? This seems contradictory, if we don't understand them how can we use them, if the judges don't understand them how can they use them? Do you mean that it would be good to see an exposition of technical aspects to raise the general level of awareness possibly? not wanting to put words in your mouth but that paragraph really stopped me.


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## Cran

Ilasir Maroa said:


> Reading through Cran's categories, I see no real improvement on the problems presented in the curren model. Cran's is much more general, of course, but is also less informative as to what certain elements actually represent.
> 
> The reason I have pushed so much to keep as large an amount as possible of points based on technical aspects is that no single person here understands even a majority of poetic techniques.
> 
> I think that maybe the best thing to do would be to modify the current system in the direction of Cran's but *include examples of technical aspects that should be loked for by the judges... *


 yes! ... preferably _explanatory_ examples, *Ilasir* - so _we can all learn_ ... 

that's exactly the sort of thing I was asking for in the earlier discussion - 
I'm not being modest when I say _what I don't know about poetry could fill libraries _... I might be good at what I do, but I'm just as unschooled and motivated by personal aesthetics (or _inner ear_) as, it seems, the next guy ... 

it was for this reason, and the model from which mine was drawn, that I had to be general, and then ask that those with proficiency in the craft of poetry add the details - without such (and I think it might also be true of the general _LM_ guide), the guidelines had to remain flexible enough to suit judges or reviewers of any calibre; ie, those who knew their stuff could apply it ... those going on instinct or intuition could still follow in their fashion ... 

what I did try to do was distinguish the _construction_ (craft, objective assessment) from the _effectiveness_ (art, subjective assessment), and weight the total 60/40 towards the subjective, because that has come through strongly in other discussions about poetry (there were advocates of purely subjective assessment, of course - but I feel that is extreme and counterproductive). 

whatever the model, or score weighting, I think it would be of benefit to identify the general aspects (which can be thought of as the "must have something of") - and within each, the different groupings or possibilities (which can be thought of as the "may have something of") - and, as many of us admit to technical ignorance, perhaps a brief definition of the less familiar terms ...


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## Baron

If I go to a horse show, horses and riders in the show are not being judged against all those that have ever been, they are judged against the others in a show, likewise with any form of competition.  Competitors are judged against other competitors.  To suggest that scoring in this competition should apply to anything other than poems entered is just creating an unnecessary complication.

I like the format used for judging this particular challenge and think that it needs only minor tweaking, the main area being the assonance and alliteration section.


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## Ilasir Maroa

I'm not pushing for the awarding of points for use of technical aspects, but for the effective use of technical aspects. And yes Cran, I did mean explanatory examples or else how would they be useful? There are many people of different levels who participate in this conteset, and will possibly particpate in the furture judging of this contest. They should not be barred for being less than the perfect poet, but it is important that they not be excused either. I would never advocate any sort of discrimination against anyone of any level of expertise. I simply think there should be some effort to account for discrepencies in knowledge. As far as i am concerned, just making note of the pertinent techniques is sufficient. No one should be forced to spend their time and effort looking for every single device. As long as the information is there for the participants to reference, then I think the main goal of learning and improvement (and fun) through these competitions has been achieved.

In reference to my comments on your system, Cran, I was simply noting the responses of those in favor of immediate adoption of the system on the basis of "I like it."  I had no intention of disparaging or otherwise making negative remarks about the system itself, which I think does a good job on the subjective side, and leaves room open for objective measurement.


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## Cran

Baron said:


> If I go to a horse show, horses and riders in the show are not being judged against all those that have ever been, they are judged against the others in a show, likewise with any form of competition.


Actually, no ... they are judged against _benchmarks _(times, faults, heights, etc) - the same is true of many such events (diving, dancing, gymnastics, etc). While entrants compete against each other, they are judged individually - ie, if there were only one entrant, that entrant would still be judged against the benchmarks.


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## Baron

Cran said:


> Actually, no ... they are judged against _benchmarks _(times, faults, heights, etc) - the same is true of many such events (diving, dancing, gymnastics, etc). While entrants compete against each other, they are judged individually - ie, if there were only one entrant, that entrant would still be judged against the benchmarks.


 
The benchmarks are laid down in the judging criteria, in exactly the same way as is being attempted in the judging guidelines for the challenge.  Competitors are judged only against other comepetitors according to the strictures of the guidelines.

If it came to comparing poems on the forum against classical poetry then you're venturing into an impossible area.  It would require that judges are conversant with the classics, it would require agreement on what poetry is considered to be included among the classics and it would therefore mean that a panel of real experts in poetry would be required.  

This is trying to elevate this challenge far beyond what it is and I don't believe could truly be implemented so why not just keep our feet on the ground and focus on a system that is judging submissions only against other submissions.


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## Cran

Ilasir Maroa said:


> No one should be forced to spend their time and effort looking for every single device. As long as the information is there for the participants to reference, then I think the main goal of learning and improvement (and fun) through these competitions has been achieved.


Absolutely ... 



> In reference to my comments on your system, Cran, I was simply noting the responses of those in favor of immediate adoption of the system on the basis of "I like it." I had no intention of disparaging or otherwise making negative remarks about the system itself, which I think does a good job on the subjective side, and leaves room open for objective measurement.


Not offended in the least, *Ilasir* ... 
there are so many complementary aspects to consider; 
not all of which fit neatly into a "one-size-fits-all" box - 
objective/subjective
generalities/specifics
proficiency/intuition
etc ...

As for the responses (thanks guys) - I think that comes back to 
what you had indicated before:
finding a way of making the existing criteria appear less daunting, 
and at the same time, showing where the missing pieces
could or should fit into the framework ... 
that, coupled with *Pete_C*'s idea of removing, or at least counterbalancing,
any prejudicial (opinionated) comments, sounds like real progress to me ...


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## Cran

Baron said:


> The benchmarks are laid down in the judging criteria, in exactly the same way as is being attempted in the judging guidelines for the challenge. Competitors are judged only against other comepetitors according to the strictures of the guidelines.


No, they are not - and judges have been disgraced and barred for basing their scores in that manner - entrants are only ever judged against the benchmarks, never against their competitors - the whole concept of competing against each other is a furphy, and not relevant. 



> If it came to comparing poems on the forum against classical poetry then you're venturing into an impossible area. It would require that judges are conversant with the classics, it would require agreement on what poetry is considered to be included among the classics and it would therefore mean that a panel of real experts in poetry would be required.


I agree with you ... but that is the concern expressed about the current criteria, and also my concern when I read it ... 



> This is trying to elevate this challenge far beyond what it is and I don't believe could truly be implemented so why not just keep our feet on the ground and focus on a system that is judging submissions only against other submissions.


Because I think that is overly complicating the process; because I believe it is wrong; and because it is fairer to judge entries on their own merit, not how they stack up against the other entries ...


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## Baron

Cran said:


> No, they are not - and judges have been disgraced and barred for basing their scores in that manner - entrants are only ever judged against the benchmarks, never against their competitors - the whole concept of competing against each other is a furphy, and not relevant.
> 
> I agree with you ... but that is the concern expressed about the current criteria, and also my concern when I read it ...
> 
> Because I think that is overly complicating the process; because I believe it is wrong; and because it is fairer to judge entries on their own merit, not how they stack up against the other entries ...


Seems like there's some head banging going on here. I think that we are agreed that all entries should be judged againstan agreed criteria, and the point that I tried to make earlier is that events are judged focused on entries in that event, against set criteria, and not considereing performance outside of the event. Entries judged against predetermined criteria is about as simple as I can put it. 

To use the showjumping metaphor, there is a diffferent expectancy in the local gymkhana to that of an international event, although the same guidelines apply they are tailored to the standard of the event. The local rider would be awarded points without any consideration to how they would compare to an international events rider. The judgment would be made in terms of how the judge felt that the entrant measured up against the set guidelines at the actual event. 

Already I feel that discussion is getting overly complicated. Surely the idea is to set a guideline that can be easily applied by judges whose knowledge is at varying levels. With only minor complaints this seems to have worked with the system used in this last challenge. Surely the easiest way forward is to address and correct the shortfalls in that system?


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## Cran

Baron said:


> Seems like there's some head banging going on here. I think that we are agreed that all entries should be judged againstan agreed criteria, and the point that I tried to make earlier is that events are judged focused on entries in that event, against set criteria, and not considereing performance outside of the event. Entries judged against predetermined criteria is about as simple as I can put it.


Ah, yes, now I see what page you're on ... 



> To use the showjumping metaphor, there is a diffferent expectancy in the local gymkhana to that of an international event, although the same guidelines apply they are tailored to the standard of the event. The local rider would be awarded points without any consideration to how they would compare to an international events rider. The judgment would be made in terms of how the judge felt that the entrant measured up against the set guidelines at the atual event.


Absolutely ... 



> Already I feel that discussion is getting overly complicated. Surely the idea is to set a guideline that can be easily applied by judges whose knowledge is at varying levels. With only minor complaints this seems to have worked with the system used in this last challenge. Surely the easiest way forward is to address and correct the shortfalls in that system?


well, you know how it is, *Baron* - discussions involving more than one person tend to get complicated ... 
you're right - maybe not easiest, but likely the best - even though we've all come in from different directions, we seem to have reached the same point. 

I guess two things need to happen:
1. Ask the administrator(s) to consider such modifications as indicated by
2. interested volunteers with sufficient expertise to identify what's needed

as that cuts me out, I can now go back to being a fascinated observer ... 

_I think *Ilasir* might have tipped a hand, though _... ;-)


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## Ilasir Maroa

I tend to agree with Baron that the poems should be judged in comparison to, though not against, the other poems in the specific contest. 

I tend to agree with Cran that the current system involves some comparison to classic poetry, and the more common conventions of that poetry. I don;t think (and correct me if i am wrong), that Cran is proposing we judge the poems against all poetry. But I also see Cran as against a direct competition between entries. 

When I judged ths challenge, and the one run by Baron, I didn't look to other poems when judging a specific piece. This may account for some of the disparities mentioned in reference to final scores. 

I think the main issue here is to decide what criteria can be fairly applied across the board. I think that the broader the category, the easier it will be to encompass all skill levels in one format. really, there are two ways to do this. Use the three most basic categories: Impact(emotional--or other, if stipulated--effect), Flow(rhythm; in meter or free verse), and Polish(care taken to keep poems using proper grammar, punctuation, etc). Poetic devices fall under all three of these categories. So do rhythm and imagery. But that can get complicated.

I think a simple way to do it is to look at imagery(metaphor, simile, analogy), technique(anything from rhythm to assonance, to rhyme and poetic devices), and overall impact. If we simply modify the current system so that each of these areas has a proportional number of categories, then it should fit most if not all of the criteria that can be reasonably set forth.


I just saw Cran's post*winces*uker: Yeah, uh... I have twenty-nine novels to write. See you all later!:albinoNo seriously, I really am working on that many.) en:And I also think now might be the time to admit I'm a thriteen-year-old boy with an addiction to Wikipedia...:^o


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## Baron

Ilasir Maroa said:


> I'm a thriteen-year-old boy with an addiction to Wikipedia...:^o


 
Oh no!  Not Hodge's little brother?  :shock: :scratch: :santa:


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## Ilasir Maroa

Oh, darn!  You caught me baron...:1star:


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## d.b.potts

Ilasir Maroa said:


> I think the main issue here is to decide what criteria can be fairly applied across the board. I think that the broader the category, the easier it will be to encompass all skill levels in one format. really, there are two ways to do this. Use the three most basic categories: Impact(emotional--or other, if stipulated--effect), Flow(rhythm; in meter or free verse), and Polish(care taken to keep poems using proper grammar, punctuation, etc). Poetic devices fall under all three of these categories. So do rhythm and imagery. But that can get complicated.


 
I do believe Ilasir has hit it right on the head. 
The competing poems do need to be judged based on certain criteria, but they should be universal so that every style can be scored accordingly.
The poems have to be pitted against each other, not the rules or the theme. If it's a technical challenge, then we should all be writing in the same style ("theatre" in iambic pentameter, or "sick love" in a sonnet). Otherwise, the scoring has to be able to accomodate a short free-verse poem equally alongside a long metered one.


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## Shawn

A free verse poem can be constructed with iambs, and it's good to do so. Part of making a memorable poem is making it memorable, and no one really remembers a phrase that's rough on the tongue. It's been said that one must know the rules in order to break them. I think this rings true in a poetic sense, because there are a lot of rules in poetry. It's hard to break into, and at times hard to understand; but I think that the main goal here should be education, and not continued ignorance of the craft.

In short, how do we judge a theme?

I would suggest something in the order of this:

*Thematic Resonance - 5 Points
Technical Excellence - 5 Points
Composition - 5 Points
Message - 5 Points
Originality - 5 Points*

*Total - 25 Points*

This is the deal and the balance. There are three categories that deal with non-technical aspects: thematic resonance, or how clearly the theme comes through; message, or the actual theme; and originality, or how uniquely the message is shown. Those three are worth 15 points, or 60% of the total score. Then there are two technical categories: Technical excellence, or grammar (as far as that may go) and spelling; and composition, or the use of poetic device in the poem.

Nothing on meter. Nothing on form. Just the use of rhetoric and the displaying of a theme. This would also allow the variability for there to be point gaps, so there aren't ties every other poem.

If you have a major theme to present, you use proper spelling, and you use devices (whether it be antithesis, asydentons, syncopation, etc.), then a high score should be easy.

On the other hand, if the theme is weak and the poem is weak, a low score will be shown.

Answering to five categories instead of ten would take half of the burden off the judges, and the scoring would need to be more carefully thought out by the judges, instead of arbitrary percentage points.

I don't know... just a suggestion.


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## Baron

Shawn said:


> A free verse poem can be constructed with iambs, and it's good to do so. Part of making a memorable poem is making it memorable, and no one really remembers a phrase that's rough on the tongue. It's been said that one must know the rules in order to break them. I think this rings true in a poetic sense, because there are a lot of rules in poetry. It's hard to break into, and at times hard to understand; but I think that the main goal here should be education, and not continued ignorance of the craft.
> 
> In short, how do we judge a theme?
> 
> I would suggest something in the order of this:
> 
> *Thematic Resonance - 5 Points*
> *Technical Excellence - 5 Points*
> *Composition - 5 Points*
> *Message - 5 Points*
> *Originality - 5 Points*
> 
> *Total - 25 Points*
> 
> This is the deal and the balance. There are three categories that deal with non-technical aspects: thematic resonance, or how clearly the theme comes through; message, or the actual theme; and originality, or how uniquely the message is shown. Those three are worth 15 points, or 60% of the total score. Then there are two technical categories: Technical excellence, or grammar (as far as that may go) and spelling; and composition, or the use of poetic device in the poem.
> 
> Nothing on meter. Nothing on form. Just the use of rhetoric and the displaying of a theme. This would also allow the variability for there to be point gaps, so there aren't ties every other poem.
> 
> If you have a major theme to present, you use proper spelling, and you use devices (whether it be antithesis, asydentons, syncopation, etc.), then a high score should be easy.
> 
> On the other hand, if the theme is weak and the poem is weak, a low score will be shown.
> 
> Answering to five categories instead of ten would take half of the burden off the judges, and the scoring would need to be more carefully thought out by the judges, instead of arbitrary percentage points.
> 
> I don't know... just a suggestion.


The suggestion looks good to me.  I think that, bearing in mind that judges in this challenge are volunteers, it's important to keep the criteria as simple as possible while at the same time covering the bases so that poems are given a reasoned judgment.


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## Ilasir Maroa

I think that Shawn's format would work best.  It keeps the spirit of Cran's system, and it also places the emphasis well for each aspect of the poem.  it allows for the much-desired subjectivity, and also gives the poor judges a bit of a break.  In this form, the scoring system gives them more latitude in decining how much they wish to expand on the score.


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## Cran

I'm curious how one would assess _originality_ for 20% of the score - 
given the dichotomy of _originality_ ...

on one side, every piece posted here must be _original_ 
(ie, the poster's own work), therefore simply posting would entitle 20% ... 

on another side, can anything truly be described as _original_? 
Would a judge know if something was truly original, 
or simply outside of that judge's experience? 
In which case, few if any would be entitled to a score, risking 20% ... 

I'd also like something clearer about _message_ 
than _the actual theme_ for 20% ... 
especially as there are sections for _thematic resonance_,
_technical excellence_ (which I would have equated with poetic craft),
and _composition_ (which I would have equated with English skills) ...


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## Foxee

Wouldn't 'originality'='not cliched'?


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## Shawn

The judging would be on a gradient rubric. I threw together one really quickly to get the point across. This is standard in academic settings. Keep in mind that this is five minutes work. 

Rubric

This sets "benchmarks" to ensure effective judging and fairness all around. It's much easier to contest scores when you know exactly how it is judged.

I use this technique when evaluating essays and the like. It keeps my opinion out of the scoring, so that the writer gets the credit they deserve.


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## wheelz1138

I agree more with Foxee's definition of originality than Shawn's, as stated in his rubric. All authors borrow in some sense from someone else. In that light, there is no true original poem in the world, aside from _perhaps_ the first ever written.


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## Ilasir Maroa

I wouldn't say originality means not cliche, just not badly used cliche.


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## Olly Buckle

You can also twist cliche to use it in an original way or quote or misquote other poems in order to achieve particular effects. Originality has surely got to be based on the "wow I never saw it like that" effect that the poem has and if that is down to the judges ignorance firstly there is a certain amount of luck in any process and secondly there is more than one judge, they won't all be ignorant, or if they are all ignorant of it what you are using is almost unknown and probably not very good.
 Besides this could get Lilliputian, originality means cliche, but what is cliche?


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## Baron

Olly Buckle said:


> You can also twist cliche to use it in an original way or quote or misquote other poems in order to achieve particular effects. Originality has surely got to be based on the "wow I never saw it like that" effect that the poem has and if that is down to the judges ignorance firstly there is a certain amount of luck in any process and secondly there is more than one judge, they won't all be ignorant, or if they are all ignorant of it what you are using is almost unknown and probably not very good.
> Besides this could get Lilliputian, originality means cliche, but what is cliche?


Everything is cliche inasmuch as there is nothing that has never been used before by someone.  The issue is to present a well used language in a fresh an appealing way.  

Given the nature of the challenge, I again warn against getting too complex and high brow.  I think that the basic formula that Shawn has laid down is good.  for the sake of the judges, some who may not be that experienced, the simpler the format and the easier to interpret, the better.


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## Foxee

Okay, let me clarify what I mean by something being cliched vs. original.

If I read a poem and right at the beginning I know exactly how it's going to run and going to end and I'm right it doesn't feel 'original'. For example, the scores of teen angst love poems "I lost you (or can't have you) and it hurts." If that is ALL the poem conveys it comes across as unoriginal. 

The writer (poem or story) has to go beyond that and offer a fresh perspective (if you can find one) or a twist or something to make it stand out from all the others like it. Make something old new again.


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## Baron

Foxee said:


> Okay, let me clarify what I mean by something being cliched vs. original.
> 
> If I read a poem and right at the beginning I know exactly how it's going to run and going to end and I'm right it doesn't feel 'original'. For example, the scores of teen angst love poems "I lost you (or can't have you) and it hurts." If that is ALL the poem conveys it comes across as unoriginal.
> 
> The writer (poem or story) has to go beyond that and offer a fresh perspective (if you can find one) or a twist or something to make it stand out from all the others like it. Make something old new again.


 
You put it so well, Foxee...



> Everything is cliche inasmuch as there is nothing that has never been used before by someone. The issue is to present a well used language in a fresh an appealing way.


 
Great minds think alike but trust a woman to make it simpler.  :lol:


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## Cran

Shawn said:


> The judging would be on a gradient rubric. I threw together one really quickly to get the point across. This is standard in academic settings. Keep in mind that this is five minutes work.
> 
> Rubric


OK - understanding that it's thrown together in a short time - 
conversely, it's something that you've put forward for serious consideration;
 and it's based on your assessment experience ... 

The first thing I noticed is the strong interdependence of your groupings - 
eg_, thematic resonance _and _message_; _thematic resonance_ and _composition_ ... 
while there will always be some interdependence, 
it helps to minimise that where possible, allowing for flexible 
or unforeseen combinations ... 
the next thing I noticed was the similarity in gradient steps 
with the standard LM model (and mine, which was based on that one) ... 



> This sets "benchmarks" to ensure effective judging and fairness all around. It's much easier to contest scores when you know exactly how it is judged.


effective judging and fairness are excellent goals, 
and should be paramount ... 
contesting scores, on the other hand, should be a "no-no" ... 
_the judge's decision is final_ and all that in a challenge or competition -
very different to a scholastic environment, where contesting a grade is 
a student's right ... 



> I use this technique when evaluating essays and the like. It keeps my opinion out of the scoring, so that the writer gets the credit they deserve.


A nice ideal, *Shawn*, but impossible to realise - even scoring the _objective_ criteria, each grade is your opinion ... 
based on your interpretation of the benchmarks, 
and your theoretical and practical experience ...

with respect to _originality_ - 
I agree with what people are saying, but I can also see that _originality_ goes beyond all of that ... 
the reason I included _originality_ in the _effectiveness_ (subjective) component earlier, is that originality can stem from any of the _objective_ applications, 
and is likely to be a composite of two or more of them ... 

that is also why I did not assign specific points to any of the _subjective_ areas, 
because the effectiveness of any piece is going to be a fuzzy (in a quantum sense) region of assessment, determined in part by the _objective_ qualities, and in part by the _emotional_ and _aesthetic_ responses that the whole piece generates ...


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## Shawn

I understand, the scoring system I put forward is weak; but I've never said I was serious about it.

I am saying that if there is any system, it should be simple, minimal, and gradient. Otherwise, judges will be putting random numbers in based on gut instinct... but having criteria that can be interpreted literally (e.g. "There are two spelling or grammatical errors") and the like will go greatly to improve, number one, the fairness of the judging; two, the effectiveness of the judging; and three, a set of criteria for writers to improve on. Through this, we can spread awareness of phonetics, rhetoric, and independent thought.

Assuming that we just have a contest and have a winner isn't productive. There can be education in competition and, especially in a small forum like this, there is no limit to how much the writers can improve. I think there's a responsibility in any organized activity we do to spread awareness of our craft, and to promote higher literacy and education.

Okay, so why clearly spelled out, literal benchmarks? Consistency in scoring. A poem that is properly constructed will get higher points, a poem that is inadequate will get lower points. Nothing to do with opinion. Now, if we introduce subjective categories into the mix, we can get our variation in scoring. These are such things as thematic categories and rhetorical devices.

So, if we combine the objective and the subjective in a simple, easily understandable, _gradient_ manner, I think there is much more that can be done with this competition other than an ego boost for the winner and to give some members a sense that they are "high brow."

If we take all the competitors by the hand and show them how they can clarify and improve their work, I believe that we will see a much more dramatic and profound response in the entries. That being said, poets can not improve on opinions; they can only improve on what can be fixed. Meter, device, clarity, and structure.


----------



## Baron

Do we yet have any idea who will make up the panel of judges for the next challenge?


----------



## wheelz1138

Until Selorian steps in, I doubt we have sufficient consensus to have another competition which is also well judged, unless we continue with the current scoring model till appropriate modifications can be made.


----------



## Cran

Shawn said:


> I understand, the scoring system I put forward is weak; but I've never said I was serious about it.


OK, *Shawn* ... 
but let's assume that some of us (at least) _are_ serious about putting the best system in place - 
and that all ideas put forward will be given serious consideration ... 



> I am saying that if there is any system, it should be simple, minimal, and gradient. Otherwise, judges will be putting random numbers in based on gut instinct... but having criteria that can be interpreted literally (e.g. "There are two spelling or grammatical errors") and the like will go greatly to improve, number one, the fairness of the judging; two, the effectiveness of the judging; and three, a set of criteria for writers to improve on. Through this, we can spread awareness of phonetics, rhetoric, and independent thought.


 Absolutely ... and for _objective_ components, it's quite straightforward - 
as illustrated by the various assessment options ... 
for _subjective _assessments, things are less straightforward, 
and there is a danger with being hamstrung by arbitrary benchmarks ... 



> Assuming that we just have a contest and have a winner isn't productive. There can be education in competition and, especially in a small forum like this, there is no limit to how much the writers can improve. I think there's a responsibility in any organized activity we do to spread awareness of our craft, and to promote higher literacy and education.


No argument there; I've said as much in previous discussions ... 



> Okay, so why clearly spelled out, literal benchmarks? Consistency in scoring. A poem that is properly constructed will get higher points, a poem that is inadequate will get lower points. Nothing to do with opinion. Now, if we introduce subjective categories into the mix, we can get our variation in scoring. These are such things as thematic categories and rhetorical devices.


yep, though I called them _addressing the theme_ and _addressing the reading_  ... 
_rhetorical devices_ is a bit problematic - 
_applying_ rhetorical devices is craft - _objectively_ assessible;
the _effectiveness_ of rhetorical devices used is art - _subjectively_ assessible.



> So, if we combine the objective and the subjective in a simple, easily understandable, _gradient_ manner, I think there is much more that can be done with this competition other than an ego boost for the winner and to give some members a sense that they are "high brow."


That's the point I believe we are all aiming for ... 



> If we take all the competitors by the hand and show them how they can clarify and improve their work, I believe that we will see a much more dramatic and profound response in the entries. That being said, poets can not improve on opinions; they can only improve on what can be fixed. Meter, device, clarity, and structure.


Again, I think in that respect, we are on the same page ... 


			
				Cran said:
			
		

> Every scored entry should be accompanied by a brief review; *consider highlighting strengths and weaknesses, suggestions (if any)*, and overall appeal.


----------



## Cran

Baron said:


> Do we yet have any idea who will make up the panel of judges for the next challenge?


If the old idea of the previous winner is one of the panel, then yes ... ;-)

otherwise, is it volunteer ... or invitation? 



			
				wheelz1138 said:
			
		

> Until Selorian steps in, I doubt we have sufficient consensus to have another competition which is also well judged, unless we continue with the current scoring model till appropriate modifications can be made.


I hope this discussion is independent of the actual challenge process - 
in other words, a lack of consensus or decision, or request to admin, 
should not dictate the timetable of challenges ... 
which should proceed according to the administrator's priorities, 
and within the framework recognised by the administrator ... 

the only thing I can see which may be taken into account this time is the Christmas/New Year situation ...


----------



## Baron

Cran said:


> I hope this discussion is independent of the actual challenge process -
> in other words, a lack of consensus or decision, or request to admin,
> should not dictate the timetable of challenges ...
> which should proceed according to the administrator's priorities,
> and within the framework recognised by the administrator ...
> 
> the only thing I can see which may be taken into account this time is the Christmas/New Year situation ...


I hope that you're right because the way this discussion is going if it was dependant on a resolution then it's probably never happen. :drunk:


----------



## Cran

Baron said:


> Do we yet have any idea who will make up the panel of judges for the next challenge?


I've not seen a call for volunteers ...
so I'm guessing it's being handled by invitation ... 

either way, I guess the panel will be announced 
along with the next challenge ...


----------



## Cran

uhh, *guys* ... (you know who you are ...) 
I'm noticing some _discussion_ about poetry and assessment 
in the scoring thread - is that really cool?

Any chance you can bring the comments, criticisms, etc ... ie, _discussions_ ...
over here (where they belong), and leave the scoring thread(s) 
for scores and congratulations/commiserations? 

I believe it behooves us, as judges, mentors and responsible members, 
to set the examples we'd like to see ... rather than pushing the envelope
until some moderator has to step in and act ... 

umm ... another thing I noticed: 


			
				Selorian said:
			
		

> *4. A people’s choice vote* is then set up by the PC Director where poems are posted and chosen by the peers of the challenge participants. These winners then move forward to the final judging round. This is expected to be based on the quality of the poem and should not become a popularity contest. The people’s choice vote is open for one week/seven days.


Perhaps this step should be scrapped? 
For a couple of reasons:
1. it didn't happen ... 
1a it's not fair to voters if a minimum number of entries are required 
before they are allowed to exercise the option enshrined in the guidelines ... 
2. using a popular vote as an elimination round is not fair to entrants, 
all of whom should be entitled to equal assessment ... 
2a. the two methods are based on different criteria and priorities ...


----------



## Selorian

It didn't happen because it was agreed upon.  The rest I'll address tomorrow.


----------



## Cran

Selorian said:


> It didn't happen because it was agreed upon.  The rest I'll address tomorrow.


yes ...  and the point is...?   

No rush - 'tis the season, and all that ... 


Something else I've been mulling over, perhaps to ask the admins:

why is the _Challenges etc_ section so far away from 
the _Creativity _section on the main page?
Seems like the two go hand in hand to me ... 
at least, they seem more strongly linked to each other than 
with any of the sections in between ...


----------



## Baron

Do we yet have any idea when the next challenge will begin?


----------



## Selorian

We'll start up both the LM Poetry Challenge and the original LM Challenge after the new year.


----------



## Cran

The Guide said:
			
		

> Once a month, the poets of WF get together to flex their artistic muscles and push their creative boundaries.





			
				Cran said:
			
		

> the only thing I can see which may be taken into account this time is the Christmas/New Year situation ...



So, either December gets pushed to early January  

[edited] *Selorian* replied in the meantime ...


----------



## Selorian

Discussion of changes to the judging method pushed back the December challenge, and then the holidays hit.


----------



## Cran

Cran said:


> I hope this discussion is independent of the actual challenge process -
> in other words, a lack of consensus or decision, or request to admin,
> should not dictate the timetable of challenges ...
> which should proceed according to the administrator's priorities,
> and within the framework recognised by the administrator ...
> 
> the only thing I can see which may be taken into account this time is the Christmas/New Year situation ...
> 
> 
> uhh, *guys* ... (you know who you are ...)
> I'm noticing some _discussion_ about poetry and assessment
> in the scoring thread - is that really cool?
> 
> Any chance you can bring the comments, criticisms, etc ... ie, _discussions_ ...
> over here (where they belong), and leave the scoring thread(s)
> for scores and congratulations/commiserations?
> 
> I believe it behooves us, as judges, mentors and responsible members,
> to set the examples we'd like to see ... rather than pushing the envelope
> until some moderator has to step in and act ...
> 
> umm ... another thing I noticed:
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Selorian*
> _*4. A people’s choice vote* is then set up by the PC Director where poems are posted and chosen by the peers of the challenge participants. These winners then move forward to the final judging round. This is expected to be based on the quality of the poem and should not become a popularity contest. The people’s choice vote is open for one week/seven days._
> 
> Perhaps this step should be scrapped?
> For a couple of reasons:
> 1. it didn't happen ...
> 1a it's not fair to voters if a minimum number of entries are required
> before they are allowed to exercise the option enshrined in the guidelines ...
> 2. using a popular vote as an elimination round is not fair to entrants,
> all of whom should be entitled to equal assessment ...
> 2a. the two methods are based on different criteria and priorities ...


----------



## Selorian

Cran, I know what has and hasn't been said.  Simply stated, I'm not going to do another challenge when people are displeased with the judging method.  I'm not going to do this quote-to-argue thing with you.


----------



## Baron

Selorian said:


> Cran, I know what has and hasn't been said. Simply stated, I'm not going to do another challenge when people are displeased with the judging method. I'm not going to do this quote-to-argue thing with you.


The only person who is arguing here is Cran.  The concensus has agreed with Shawn's proposals so it seems unreasonable to hold things back for all because of one person's inability to accept a concensus view.


----------



## Cran

No arguments in my post - simply reminders ... 
eg:


Selorian said:


> It didn't happen because it was agreed upon.  *The rest I'll address tomorrow.*


I guess _tomorrow_ hasn't come yet ... 

As for the interpretation of _consensus_, *Baron *- 
it's your deal, do what works for you ... 
if you can't handle questions or criticisms, say so,
and I'll butt out ... again ...


----------



## Baron

Cran said:


> No arguments in my post - simply reminders ...
> eg:
> 
> I guess _tomorrow_ hasn't come yet ...
> 
> As for the interpretation of _consensus_, *Baron *-
> it's your deal, do what works for you ...
> if you can't handle questions or criticisms, say so,
> and I'll butt out ... again ...


Your questions and criticisms are bordering on obsessive.  What's gained if we have no challenge?


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

Fighting is not productive.  Go write a therapy poem on your problems and then we can critique it to see who has the most valid argument...](*,)=D>:alien:ig:


----------



## Baron

Ilasir Maroa said:


> Fighting is not productive. Go write a therapy poem on your problems and then we can critique it to see who has the most valid argument...](*,)=D>:alien:ig:


I have no desire to stop doing things that are creative, productive and helpful to those who just want to get on with it so perhaps we'll just have to do the next challenge ourselves again back in the poetry forum.


----------



## Selorian

If the consensus is to work with tweaking the judging system with Shawn's proposals, then we need to ask him to do a revision to submit for approval and eventual implementation.  We can still do a new challenge now that the holidays are about over using the original for this round and implement the new one for the next challenge.

And I apologize for the outburst.  I don't need to be reminded of what was said by a long list of quotes without any input from the one posting them.  And, believe it or not, I do have a life outside of WF.  With the holidays and the recent downtime of the site, it just pushed the wrong buttons to see that being the first new reply in this thread.


----------



## Baron

Selorian said:


> If the consensus is to work with tweaking the judging system with Shawn's proposals, then we need to ask him to do a revision to submit for approval and eventual implementation. We can still do a new challenge now that the holidays are about over using the original for this round and implement the new one for the next challenge.
> 
> And I apologize for the outburst. I don't need to be reminded of what was said by a long list of quotes without any input from the one posting them. And, believe it or not, I do have a life outside of WF. With the holidays and the recent downtime of the site, it just pushed the wrong buttons to see that being the first new reply in this thread.


This sounds like the most reasonable way forward.  I fully understand the pressures of the holiday and I know that the downtime hasn't helped anything.  A vote of thanks and wishes for a good and prosperous new year to all the admin on WF.


----------



## Cran

Selorian said:


> If the consensus is to work with tweaking the judging system with Shawn's proposals, then we need to ask him to do a revision to submit for approval and eventual implementation. We can still do a new challenge now that the holidays are about over using the original for this round and implement the new one for the next challenge.


I'm pleased that you see fit to go ahead with the challenges, *Selorian* ... 
because I don't need to remind you by quoting the sources, 
of the intention of the _discussion_, and the clear agreement 
that the challenges should not be determined by it ... 

I also don't need to remind you that *Baron*'s first summary of the consensus
 in this discussion was to tweak *Selorian*'s proposals for the assessment guide ... 



			
				Baron said:
			
		

> I have no desire to stop doing things that are creative, productive and helpful to those who just want to get on with it so perhaps we'll just have to do the next challenge ourselves again back in the poetry forum.


Then why bring idle and childish threats that undermine *Selorian*'s (and everybody else's) efforts here?  
The challenge was brought to LM, in spite of the grief caused by earlier discussions about it, 
and it was what you said you wanted. 
* Selorian* put in a lot of work to get it up and running ... 
some of us are interested in making the challenge the best it can be in the long term; 
hence we have discussions about how best to achieve that ...
egos and emotions don't help ... get over it ...



			
				Selorian said:
			
		

> And I apologize for the outburst. I don't need to be reminded of what was said by a long list of quotes without any input from the one posting them. And, believe it or not, I do have a life outside of WF. With the holidays and the recent downtime of the site, it just pushed the wrong buttons to see that being the first new reply in this thread.


I understand ... 
just as it pushed my buttons to see that you ignore anything uncomfortable,
like making good on your word ... 
the "long list" of _two_ quotes were my own words, and needed no further input, 
because they weren't addressed the first time ...

but hey, let's not get obsessive about it ...


----------



## Baron

Cran, I really can't be bothered with all of this.  Selorian said that there may be no challenge because of the persistent debate of one person.  I prefer action to words and am really only interested in seeing the challenge go ahead.  I think that those who have been involved in judging, like Shawn, who also knows a little about poetry, are in the best postion to make the tweaks.  The fact that you offer suggestions does not mean that they have to be accepted.  I've been happy to hand this thing over and do not want to see it scuppered, as almost happened before, because of confontations with the admin.


----------



## Cran

Go for it ... 

I know you can read; it's all there in the thread -
I guess there's a reason why you two have been deliberately obtuse, 
and ignoring the actual discussion with these silly little tantrums,
and shooting yourselves in the foot with irrelevencies 
that only serve to derail and delay the process ... 

I really don't understand your problems, only that they interfere
with those who really want to achieve something - 

I'll leave you then, with this brief recap:

1. you have a poetry challenge framework and process which should be _independent of any discussions_ or other forum activities;

2. you have the poetry assessment guide that was used for the last challenge - which *Selorian* had selected, and which *Baron *and *Ilasir* believed was workable with minor changes ... *PeteC* had offered to contribute towards that, but has been ignored by everybody that mattered; 

3. you have the poetry assessment guide which *Shawn* admitted to throwing together, and "wasn't serious about", but had offered as an illustration of what shape an assessment guide can take, which *Baron* seems to prefer, and which *Ilasir *thought addressed some of the issues raised, over the _10 section/100 point version_;

4. you have a separate issue regarding _what_ to do about the inclusion of a _popular vote_ in the *rules/guidelines* - whether to remove that clause, or amend it to cover circumstances such as that which occurred (the _why_ was not important nor relevent to the issue - only the _what_...)

5. you have a separate issue about the challenge thread being used as a platform for discussion, in contravention to the *rules/guidelines* ... 

good luck to you ...


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

I think Cran has summed this up nicely.  These are and can best be treated as seperate issues.

1. I think the challenge should continue on, this discussion finished or not, at the earliest convience to the admins.

2/3. The main issue here is to decide whether or not we will amend the current format, or move to a new one.  This can be done without going through long proposals for the amendments or the new system.  it would probably be quicker that way.

4. Whichever way we decide to move on the judging rubric, dealing with the vote is a seperate issue.  Looking at the number if entrants in the first challenge, I think it would be safe to remove this as part of the contest.  Even in the old competitions, it wsn't really a problem.

5.  If there are still people discussing this in the challenge thread, they need to be clearly told to move here, or they will be ignored.(Or whatever other solution the admins feel is necessary).


----------



## Selorian

Cran, you were the one that said 'no problem, no rush', so I don't know how not answering the next day wasn't keeping my word.

Also, it was you that started the public discussion about the judging before I even had a chance to ask the judges what they thought of the system.  I think you were simply itching to get it changed because yours wasn't accepted right off.

I don't have time for this after each contest.  As of now, I'm not going to run these any longer.  Maybe another member of staff has the time and the desire to do it.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

Sound familiar anyone?  There's only so many staff members to drive off.  And the number who might actually be interested or willing to help is probably smaller.


----------



## Baron

I simply repeat what I said in an earlier post.  Cran seems insensitive to the fact that in impressing his own view here he is screwing it for everyone.  I'm sorry, Cran but your idea of debate seems simply to be to do as you say.  I don't vote that way.

If the challenge is not going to go ahead here then perhaps those who are interested in getting another challenge started on the poetry forum while this is being worked out (if) could respond in this thread.


----------



## Patrick

Ye, whatever, dude. I thought you'd all got it sorted out?

There's really no point in selorian just giving it up because he doesn't like the fact that cran is questioning the current judging format. If your word is final, selorian, just say it's final.


----------



## Baron

Mermaid on the breakwater said:


> Ye, whatever, dude. I thought you'd all got it sorted out?
> 
> There's really no point in selorian just giving it up because he doesn't like the fact that cran is questioning the current judging format. If your word is final, selorian, just say it's final.


I absolutely agree.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

I think you're being a bit rough there. Selorian is not running this as a poet. He's running it as an administrator. And because of that, he wanted to get opinions from people who are knowledgable in the subject area. That is very understanding of him. Since you seem to be back in charge Baron, perhaps you should put _your_ foot down, and anybody who doesn't like it can suck it up. Does that mean you need to run it personally? No. But I think people would listen to you more than anyone else.

As to staring it back up in Poetry, I'd be willing to judge(if that's the way things are going to go), but after all this arguing(and repetition), I don't feel bad saying I'm not up to running it if I can help it.


----------



## Baron

What Selorian has been after is opinions and debate, what we have is confrontation. It was made obvious ealier in this thread that the challenge was at risk if the confrontation did not stop. Surely anyone who could see this coming would take a lower key in any further debate rather than pushing the confrontation further. Any input I've had in this thread has been with the aim in view of keeping this challenge running. It seems, at this point, that this has failed because one person making a point has become more important than the idea of the challenge as a whole.

It is up to the admin to decide the future of the challenge as it stands so I am in no position to "put my foot down". Only to suggest that we run another "lighthearted challenge in the poetry forum while we wait for whatever resolution there is to this situation abd that is for the admin, Selorian or whoever, to decide.

The only thing that I can add to this is to say that I think that it would be better for all if Cran did as he has said several times and butt out for a while.  Although I have built up a great respect for him I believe that he is helping no-one in this issue.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

Well, I'm all for a challenge in poetry. But I'd rather participate than administrate in it(if it occurs).


----------



## Baron

Ilasir Maroa said:


> Well, I'm all for a challenge in poetry. But I'd rather participate than administrate in it(if it occurs).


I'll post something in the poetry forum on Monday if nothing gets resolved over the weekend.


----------



## Olly Buckle

I keep coming back looking for the next challenge subject so I can get stuck in if I like it and it is just pages and pages of esoteric argument, you guys are about as interesting as Islamic judges. Am I coming to the wrong place? Will there be another challenge? I am not really all that interested in the judging, I know I am not going to win, the fun is taking part and reading other peoples entries, that seems to be the only bit not happening and last time it did I missed it because I had got so cheesed off with the squabbling I wasn't bothering to visit. Ox's challenge was much more fun. 
 Thankyou I feel better having got that off my chest.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Just realised I was only on page 5. I'll look on the forum on Monday Baron, thank you.


----------



## Baron

Olly Buckle said:


> I keep coming back looking for the next challenge subject so I can get stuck in if I like it and it is just pages and pages of esoteric argument, you guys are about as interesting as Islamic judges. Am I coming to the wrong place? Will there be another challenge? I am not really all that interested in the judging, I know I am not going to win, the fun is taking part and reading other peoples entries, that seems to be the only bit not happening and last time it did I missed it because I had got so cheesed off with the squabbling I wasn't bothering to visit. Ox's challenge was much more fun.
> Thankyou I feel better having got that off my chest.


No-one is endeared with the squabbling. I just feel that it's tragic that one person rubbing up the admin the wrong way can endanger the future of this so much. We've already lost Foxee's support over this and now it seems that Selorian has followed suit. I hope that he might reconsider and think about what the majority want to see here rather than throw in the towel because one person has caused upset to the admin.  I have suggest the next theme to Selorian and hhope that he will post it here and that we can get on with writing and leave the squabbling.


----------



## Baron

Question to admin - does the chalenge go ahead here or not?  No need for debate, just yes or no will do.


----------



## Patrick

I am in complete agreement with Baron here - to give up on a something so constructive because of expectable flaws is... well, whilst I mean no insult towards admin, a tiny weeny bit petty, don't you think? If you can't run the challenge because of practical issues in your life or your dedication to other areas of the forum, then I can understand. But to throw the toys out of the pram and just walk away is not fair on the majority and not very mature.


----------



## rcallaci

No one has walked away from this challenge. An announcement will be made shortly by the new administrator of this project. Please have patience - the contest will be up and running as soon as things are sorted out

my warmest
bob


----------



## Shawn

Baron said:


> Question to admin - does the chalenge go ahead here or not?  No need for debate, just yes or no will do.



Yes, Baron, the challenge will continue under my direction. And I realize that not everybody is happy with the challenge criteria, so as a first action, I will be starting a round of voting to determine the judging criteria so we can, hopefully, begin a new challenge on Monday of next week.

So, for the first vote, I would like anybody who has ideas for the judging system to send a proposal to me by no later than tomorrow. Then, on Thursday, I will ask for a vote, which will end on Friday. The majority wins, and after that, there will be no more questioning of the system unless a major flaw is uncovered in the practical application of the system.

For the purposes of this "first" challenge with the new judging system, judges will be selected, instead of volunteered, so that I can guarantee accurate feedback on the workings of the contest.

I think that it goes without saying that we very much appreciate Selorian's support of the previous competition; and, in his very organized spirit, we will continue on in the same manner... Regularly...

Best wishes for the coming challenge... and I'm not talking about poetry.


----------



## Patrick

Well done, Shawn.


----------



## Shawn

It wasn't a hard thing to do, Mermaid. In fact, I think you'll find being an uncontested volunteer is quite easy.


----------



## Patrick

Shawn said:


> It wasn't a hard thing to do, Mermaid. In fact, I think you'll find being an uncontested volunteer is quite easy.



:-D, well done for taking on the responsibility.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

All right, Shawn.  Nice to know the challenges are back on.:thumbl:


----------



## Shawn

Yes, Ilasir, I'm glad too. However, I'm really going to need everyone's help to get all the judging criteria organized. So, if you have any ideas at all (new systems, amendments to systems already mentioned, vague ideas) I need to hear it. Just send me a PM if you have any questions.


----------



## Mirror

I agree with Shawn's Judging System. Poetry is fluid and deserves to be judged as such. (no hard-and-fast rules - more room for movement).

I look forward to the upcoming challenge.


----------



## Olly Buckle

I can't be the only one who keeps coming back to see what the next subject might be. I am uninterested in winning (Which is probably just as well) and therefore in the argument. I missed the last challenge for similar reasons. I can't be the only one, we all know the winner will be one of a few technically superior poets, the rest of us are in it for the recreational challenge, so please could you publish the subject loud and clear when it is decided so we don't have to keep coming back to look. Thanks.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

It's too bad for Baron that it took so long.  "Desert" is a theme he's been writing about for a while now thans to that LA trip.


----------



## Baron

As the subject of sound files has come up in the poetry forum, is there any reason why a link to a voice recording should not be included with submissions to the challenge?


----------



## Mirror

Baron, is the theme for the upcoming challenge - 'desert'? Must have missed reading it somewhere...


----------



## Baron

Mirror said:


> Baron, is the theme for the upcoming challenge - 'desert'? Must have missed reading it somewhere...


Yes, here's the link to the challenge.

http://www.writingforums.com/lm-poetry-challenge/92182-1-14-08-desert.html

Shawn, I ask again, could a stcky link be place in the poetry forum as with the last challenge to make more people aware?


----------



## rcallaci

Done-

my warmest
bob


----------



## Baron

What's happened? The new challenge thread has vanished from here and has appeared as a closed thread in the poetry forum.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

Baron said:


> As the subject of sound files has come up in the poetry forum, is there any reason why a link to a voice recording should not be included with submissions to the challenge?


 
You probably mean "could" not be included. Making it a requirement, if that is what you meant, is silly.


----------



## Shawn

Baron said:


> As the subject of sound files has come up in the poetry forum, is there any reason why a link to a voice recording should not be included with submissions to the challenge?



I don't see why not. It would certainly help judges get a feel for the cadence of a poem without searching.


----------



## Baron

Shawn said:


> I don't see why not. It would certainly help judges get a feel for the cadence of a poem without searching.


Perhaps you could mention in the opening announcement that sound files may be added.

Ilasir, you're right.  I didn't intend to suggest that voice recording have to be included.


----------



## Pete_C

Given the pain associated with trying to compare written format verse with written free verse, how are you going to add spoken word poetry? It has less in common with generic poetry than the two disciplines that are still creating problems. Spoken word is effectively a media of its own, and steps well outside of the boundaries and rules created for poetry. Indeed, many of the top spoken word artists are more akin to jazz than poetry.

You might as well add mime, dance and photography to make it virtually impossible to judge on a like-for-like basis.


----------



## Patrick

I am actually in complete agreement with Pete on this. When you first raised the notion I did wonder as to how you can judge the two by the same criteria...


----------



## Shawn

Pete_C said:


> Given the pain associated with trying to compare written format verse with written free verse, how are you going to add spoken word poetry? It has less in common with generic poetry than the two disciplines that are still creating problems. Spoken word is effectively a media of its own, and steps well outside of the boundaries and rules created for poetry. Indeed, many of the top spoken word artists are more akin to jazz than poetry.
> 
> You might as well add mime, dance and photography to make it virtually impossible to judge on a like-for-like basis.



It might need to be remembered that written poetry is the product of a much longer oral tradition.

Poetry from the mouth is still poetry, and free verse is still free verse. But any good poem should have rhythm, so I can't think of why _any_ poem can't be spoken.

Of course, the audio won't be judged, just the poem. The "written portion" is what will count.


----------



## Baron

The thing that defines poetry from prose is that poetry is meant to be read aloud.


----------



## Pete_C

To quote from the Spoken Word thread, I think my comments there also fit here.

_This whole "tradition" argument is utter pish-wash! Traditionally, we used to sacrifice humans to appease the muses. Bit of child killing anyone? Traditionally we used to write on animal skins. Need help getting that deer hide into the Epson? Traditionally we killed others with similar skills that strayed into our territory? Homocide at the local writers' group, anyone? Traditionally we used natural pigments to make ink and feathers to make pens. Ready to throw those Bics away yet? Traditionally blah blah blah.

Prose was traditionally spoken too, so what's the point here?

I see this traditional argument as reading: "I don't really get spoken word as a separate genre, so maybe I'll use the traditional badge to excuse the posting of recitals". Who knows, maybe people can manipulate the forum (which I thought was for discussion and debate) to sell home-made CDs of their waffling as well as home-made or vanity-published pamphlets?

Sadly, I fear that anyone who steps into any Spoken Word section actually expecting exploration and development of a quite separate and thankfully proactive genre will be lost amongst dull and lifeless recitals pumped out to make a few paltry quid from self-publishing. Any genuine attempts to promote Spoken Word presentations will be washed away by those seeking some kind of quick sell for work that no publisher will touch. In short, I fear that without some real direction and guidance as to what can and cannot be posted, and a total rejection of the "traditional" argument, the move is doomed to failure._

It is a shame that every good idea on this forum is quickly fucked over, manipulated and organised according to the views of those that shout loudest. Instead of simply considering how a Spoken Word section could benefit the board as a whole, and what vibrant new members it might bring, the immediate reaction is to try and capture it, ring fence it and force it to submit to some so-called traditions that better serve some users.

It's like the night of the fucking long knives at times around here.


----------



## Baron

Pete_C said:


> To quote from the Spoken Word thread, I think my comments there also fit here.
> 
> _This whole "tradition" argument is utter pish-wash! Traditionally, we used to sacrifice humans to appease the muses. Bit of child killing anyone? Traditionally we used to write on animal skins. Need help getting that deer hide into the Epson? Traditionally we killed others with similar skills that strayed into our territory? Homocide at the local writers' group, anyone? Traditionally we used natural pigments to make ink and feathers to make pens. Ready to throw those Bics away yet? Traditionally blah blah blah._
> 
> _Prose was traditionally spoken too, so what's the point here?_
> 
> _I see this traditional argument as reading: "I don't really get spoken word as a separate genre, so maybe I'll use the traditional badge to excuse the posting of recitals". Who knows, maybe people can manipulate the forum (which I thought was for discussion and debate) to sell home-made CDs of their waffling as well as home-made or vanity-published pamphlets?_
> 
> _Sadly, I fear that anyone who steps into any Spoken Word section actually expecting exploration and development of a quite separate and thankfully proactive genre will be lost amongst dull and lifeless recitals pumped out to make a few paltry quid from self-publishing. Any genuine attempts to promote Spoken Word presentations will be washed away by those seeking some kind of quick sell for work that no publisher will touch. In short, I fear that without some real direction and guidance as to what can and cannot be posted, and a total rejection of the "traditional" argument, the move is doomed to failure._
> 
> It is a shame that every good idea on this forum is quickly fucked over, manipulated and organised according to the views of those that shout loudest. Instead of simply considering how a Spoken Word section could benefit the board as a whole, and what vibrant new members it might bring, the immediate reaction is to try and capture it, ring fence it and force it to submit to some so-called traditions that better serve some users.
> 
> It's like the night of the fucking long knives at times around here.


None of wht you have said here is anything more than a rant.

A suggestion has been made for a spoken word section and most think it is a good one.  Nobody at this point has tried to manipulate any views or make any suggestions about what form it should take or anything else for that matter.  Shawn has stated that if a spoken word link was submitted with submissions then it might help to understand cadence but it would not be considered as part of the voting process. 

You're the one who's doing all the shouting at the moment.


----------



## Pete_C

Baron said:


> None of wht you have said here is anything more than a rant.


That's your opinion, and you're welcome to it.



Baron said:


> You're the one who's doing all the shouting at the moment.


No, I am merely trying to ensure that if another section is introduced that it does what it should, in that it reflects actual Spoken Word as a genre, and it doesn't become the hideous car boot sale that some of the sections have developed into, where the main focus is to sell wares via signatures. I recall mamamia being banned for such an offence, yet the recent barrage of bumping threads by those peddling self-publications – and the outrage then displayed if a new writer posts two or three poems by these peddlars – to be very much against what most visitors want from this forum.

I am entitled to speak out when I see a genre being wrongly presented with some "traditional" blathering as a catch-all to allow it to become little more than some shoddy market-place.

I actually would like to see all commercial attributes removed from all sigs, just so we can better understand the attitudes of some visitors. I find myself posting here less frequently because I find the abuse of a discussion group to advertise wares both cynical and tiresome, especially when the merchants turn on those using the site as a discussion forum.

Shouting? You're lucky we don't have Spoken Word yet!


----------



## Baron

Pete_C said:


> That's your opinion, and you're welcome to it.
> 
> 
> No, I am merely trying to ensure that if another section is introduced that it does what it should, in that it reflects actual Spoken Word as a genre, and it doesn't become the hideous car boot sale that some of the sections have developed into, where the main focus is to sell wares via signatures. I recall mamamia being banned for such an offence, yet the recent barrage of bumping threads by those peddling self-publications – and the outrage then displayed if a new writer posts two or three poems by these peddlars – to be very much against what most visitors want from this forum.
> 
> I am entitled to speak out when I see a genre being wrongly presented with some "traditional" blathering as a catch-all to allow it to become little more than some shoddy market-place.
> 
> I actually would like to see all commercial attributes removed from all sigs, just so we can better understand the attitudes of some visitors. I find myself posting here less frequently because I find the abuse of a discussion group to advertise wares both cynical and tiresome, especially when the merchants turn on those using the site as a discussion forum.
> 
> Shouting? You're lucky we don't have Spoken Word yet!


 
Maia didn't give critiques on the forums, she insisted on people e-mailing her personally and used actual posts to spam. Unile Maia, I make no overtures, I don't try to pull people in.  You seem to have issues but you should keep them out of discussions that have no bearing on those issues.


----------



## Pete_C

Okay, my issues are that a genre will NOT be catered for because some will see it as an opportunity to stick their commercial offerings in front of more faces rather than representing what it should be. Poetry and Spoken Word are not the same, but who cares? Frankly you've already decided what the case is, and no amount of reality will change that. Run a challenge with Poetry and Spoken Word, meaningless as it will be. Throw in gardening if you want, and maybe a bit of welding for good measure.

I give up. I've got to iron my suit. Of course, when I say iron I mean eat, and when I say suit I mean some cheese, but it's all the same thing, eh?

Enjoy!


----------



## Baron

Pete_C said:


> Okay, my issues are that a genre will NOT be catered for because some will see it as an opportunity to stick their commercial offerings in front of more faces rather than representing what it should be. Poetry and Spoken Word are not the same, but who cares? Frankly you've already decided what the case is, and no amount of reality will change that. Run a challenge with Poetry and Spoken Word, meaningless as it will be. Throw in gardening if you want, and maybe a bit of welding for good measure.
> 
> I give up. I've got to iron my suit. Of course, when I say iron I mean eat, and when I say suit I mean some cheese, but it's all the same thing, eh?
> 
> Enjoy!


and a storm in a teacup is just that.  A suggestion has been made that a link to a sound file may be included with submissions.  The sound file would obviously be a recital of the poem submitted and so the issue of genre doesn't apply.  If it did then you would have to limit the challenge to only a specific genre and it doesn't work that way an nor should it.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

Maybe I'm just naive or ignorant, but I'n not sure where all this stuff about marketing is coming from. I've never encountered anything in my time anywhere on this site that matches what you seem to be describing Pete. Of course, I don't pay much attention to signatures, either.

Also, I don't see how a small link to a "sound file" version of the poem in any way brings "Spoken Word" into this competition. I'm not even sure why this argument is here. All I see is a reference to a sound file of the piece, which according to you Pete, isn't "Spoken Word" at all. Can someone please point to the post involving spoken word being used in the contest? Perhaps we'd have a bit less arguing if people kept their arguments in the proper threads.


----------



## Baron

Ilasir Maroa said:


> Maybe I'm just naive or ignorant, but I'n not sure where all this stuff about marketing is coming from. I've never encountered anything in my time anywhere on this site that matches what you seem to be describing Pete. Of course, I don't pay much attention to signatures, either.
> 
> Also, I don't see how a small link to a "sound file" version of the poem in any way brings "Spoken Word" into this competition. I'm not even sure why this argument is here. All I see is a reference to a sound file of the piece, which according to you Pete, isn't "Spoken Word" at all. Can someone please point to the post involving spoken word being used in the contest? Perhaps we'd have a bit less arguing if people kept their arguments in the proper threads.


Pete is referring to my sig and Mister Jack's, although how what we have in our signatures hurts him in any way is beyond me.  :-({|=

Thank you for confirming what I said about the audio file. I also agree about keeping the discussion in the right thread, and would add that personal issues that people may have are not relevant to the discussion.  :read: :-&


----------



## Shawn

Pete_C said:


> Poetry and Spoken Word are not the same, but who cares? Frankly you've already decided what the case is, and no amount of reality will change that. Run a challenge with Poetry and Spoken Word, meaningless as it will be. Throw in gardening if you want, and maybe a bit of welding for good measure.



An audio file does not change the nature of the challenge at all. And, if there are not any entries, there might not _be_ a competition.

When one enters a painting into a contest, it is customary to provide a brief exposition on the medium and materials used and the theme. Now, I think we can agree that expository writing and 2d art are hardly in the same genre. However, the painting is not judged on the exposition, it's judged on the painting. That's what's happening here. Many people have expressed interest in posting readings of their poems and I have assented.

I accepted to administer this challenge because I value poetry in all forms, whether it be verbal or written, and because it would be a horribly wasted opportunity to be aware of poetry in a healthy way. Take the challenge for what it is worth, or do not partake at all.


----------



## Baron

I think that it would be great if as much enthusiasm could be given to actually producing some work for the challenge as has been given to expressing opinions about it.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

Baron said:


> I think that it would be great if as much enthusiasm could be given to actually producing some work for the challenge as has been given to expressing opinions about it.


 

It's easy to enthuse about something that avoids work.  Not so easy when you are stumped and have to sit down and slog it out with your empty brain.


----------



## Patrick

I am empty on this subject, I've sat down twice to write since being informed of the topic but can't think of a single phrase, let alone poem. :-k


----------



## Baron

Mermaid on the breakwater said:


> I am empty on this subject, I've sat down twice to write since being informed of the topic but can't think of a single phrase, let alone poem. :-k


Maybe that's what makes it a challenge? =;

I thought that something like desert war would be there in your agenda somewhere.

Ilasir:  The desert is a great natural environment that should be an easy one for you.

If I end up being the only one to post do I win by default?


----------



## Olly Buckle

Mermaid on the breakwater said:


> I am empty on this subject, I've sat down twice to write since being informed of the topic but can't think of a single phrase, let alone poem. :-k


 
That strikes me as totally appropriate for the subject.(Unless it's sticky toffee pudding) 
I have only just picked up on what it is, hope I have some time left, never mind if not I'll just put it in poetry, like I said I don't care about winning, it's the challenge.


----------



## Patrick

Don't mind me - I am just muttering.


----------



## Baron

Mermaid on the breakwater said:


> Don't mind me - I am just muttering.


Take a look at the Robert Frost poem that I posted in the published poetry forum.

http://www.writingforums.com/published-poetry/92201-desert-places-robert-frost.html


----------



## Mirror

Shawn said:
			
		

> Due to a recent suggestion, it might be quite fun to include an audio recording of your poem. Host on another site, link in your post. And, please, keep the links tidy, short, and one per entry.



It would be a good idea to distinguish spoken word from recitation.


----------



## Baron

Mirror said:


> It would be a good idea to distinguish spoken word from recitation.


This is simply a matter of posting a voice file with the poem submitted to the challenge so that argument really doesn't relate here.  Any poem submitted should be allowed to have a spoken recording regardless of that poem being considered "spoken word".

The issue being raised is fatuous anyway because there should be no restrictions placed on sound files that are not placed on the normal poetry forum.


----------



## Mirror

Fair enough.


----------



## vangoghsear

Baron said:


> If I end up being the only one to post do I win by default?


Sounds good to me. =D> 




Oh, by the way, I am, as of now, the only one to post. :clown:


----------



## Baron

vangoghsear said:


> Sounds good to me. =D>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, by the way, I am, as of now, the only one to post. :clown:


12 days to run and I don't even post early for Christmas.


----------



## Pete_C

Baron said:


> Pete is referring to my sig and Mister Jack's, although how what we have in our signatures hurts him in any way is beyond me.  :-({|=



It would be beyond you, because every time it comes up you make of point of saying that people must keep the conversation on track. You tell me where you want to discuss it, or stop mentioning it in ways that allows you to use idiotic smilies to insinuate that my opinion of your self-promotion is somehow petty.

I'll copy this note to other threads where you've skated over the topic. Then the ball is in your court.


----------



## Baron

Pete_C said:


> It would be beyond you, because every time it comes up you make of point of saying that people must keep the conversation on track. You tell me where you want to discuss it, or stop mentioning it in ways that allows you to use idiotic smilies to insinuate that my opinion of your self-promotion is somehow petty.
> 
> I'll copy this note to other threads where you've skated over the topic. Then the ball is in your court.


It seems that you're embarking on some personal vendetta and in so doing you are doing more to promote what I and the group of artists and writers I am working with are doing than I am. This forum is here to discuss poetry and I have made no mention of the publishing initiative or my own writings except in response to direct questions or your rants. I also think that perhaps you should check out some of the other signatures of people who post on the site, MikeC for example, before singling me out and trying to imply that I am stepping out of line with the use of my own. You can rant on, Pete, because from this point I am not interested in responding.


----------



## Pete_C

Baron said:


> It seems that you're embarking on some personal vendetta.



Certainly not; how would you know as you refuse to discuss the matter?

Yes, a lot of people here use their sigs to "advertise" things, despite there being a rule in place against advertising. I don't care what people do with their sigs, you included, so long as it does not impact on others. What offends me about you in particular is that you do take steps at times that impact on others.

You are fast to attack new people to the site if they post more than one poem at once. At times, you are quite aggressive with them, and make it clear in no uncertain terms that they should only post one poem at a time to ensure others do not get pushed off the front page, and that they should respond to the poems of others before posting themselves. You have also stated that you won't respond to people who don't respond to you.

Now, there is something to be said for such an attitude, and whilst I disagree with some of it, I can sympathise with a part of the thinking. As you point out to those you scorn, it's a shame for the "others" whose poems might disappear with no comments. However, you forget about the "others" when you bump your own work. I found myself somewhat amused that someone so angry about multiple posts opened within 24 hours cared so little about the "others" when it comes to bumping posts. I made as much clear in the past.

Initially I noticed this when things were intentionally bumped, but since then I have spotted a trend whereby individuals are individually thanked for their comments despite little or nothing being added to what has been said, or requests are made for further comments. I can understand this off some of the visitors keen to get feedback or to have their work acknowledged, but I didn't understand it from you. You are clearly confident in what you do, and at times have ignored comments - you clearly understand your art. This confused me as to why you would actively bump your work.

I was left trying to figure out whether you simply want your ego massaged on a daily basis, or was there some other reason for bumping work (despite hating other people doing it). Then it dawned on me, it's a nice free spot for you to promote your self-published pamphlets.

Now, I don't care what you do; it has no real impact on me. However, I do get pissed off with this trend when I check back and see the number of people ignored because they're new, pushed off the front page because of bumping, that never come back. In a place designed for discussion, debate and development, it's wrong that they get less exposure than those who bump their work.

It has led to me becoming increasingly disillusioned with the Poetry section. It has also led me to consider the motives of some people. Yes, many have advertising in their sigs, but they don't try to lord it over new people. I'd rather have 100 over-excited new writers than a handful of peddlars jockeying for front page position.

Hypocrisy is something I find myself increasingly less tolerant of. When I see you attack newbies for being over-excited, and then you blatantly bump your own work, I can't help but feel that something is not quite right.

That is why I object to your advertising; not because it is in your sig, but because of the way you consider your work to be more important than that of others, and act as if you have some "right" to be at the top of the list.

Maybe I shouldn't be surprised at how you treat other writers. After all, every time the boards here crash, your off at .org pontificating, then you come back here and belittle them. Personally, I'd rather see 100 shit writers trying to improve. Mind you, I ain't selling nothing!

Of course I could be wrong; maybe you need the ego-boost. Either way, I've said what I think. It's not a personal vendetta; it's reminding you that you have a responsibility in this environment to be both fair to others and be true to yourself.


----------



## Baron

Pete_C said:


> Certainly not; how would you know as you refuse to discuss the matter?
> 
> Yes, a lot of people here use their sigs to "advertise" things, despite there being a rule in place against advertising. I don't care what people do with their sigs, you included, so long as it does not impact on others. What offends me about you in particular is that you do take steps at times that impact on others.
> 
> You are fast to attack new people to the site if they post more than one poem at once. At times, you are quite aggressive with them, and make it clear in no uncertain terms that they should only post one poem at a time to ensure others do not get pushed off the front page, and that they should respond to the poems of others before posting themselves. You have also stated that you won't respond to people who don't respond to you.
> 
> Now, there is something to be said for such an attitude, and whilst I disagree with some of it, I can sympathise with a part of the thinking. As you point out to those you scorn, it's a shame for the "others" whose poems might disappear with no comments. However, you forget about the "others" when you bump your own work. I found myself somewhat amused that someone so angry about multiple posts opened within 24 hours cared so little about the "others" when it comes to bumping posts. I made as much clear in the past.
> 
> Initially I noticed this when things were intentionally bumped, but since then I have spotted a trend whereby individuals are individually thanked for their comments despite little or nothing being added to what has been said, or requests are made for further comments. I can understand this off some of the visitors keen to get feedback or to have their work acknowledged, but I didn't understand it from you. You are clearly confident in what you do, and at times have ignored comments - you clearly understand your art. This confused me as to why you would actively bump your work.
> 
> I was left trying to figure out whether you simply want your ego massaged on a daily basis, or was there some other reason for bumping work (despite hating other people doing it). Then it dawned on me, it's a nice free spot for you to promote your self-published pamphlets.
> 
> Now, I don't care what you do; it has no real impact on me. However, I do get pissed off with this trend when I check back and see the number of people ignored because they're new, pushed off the front page because of bumping, that never come back. In a place designed for discussion, debate and development, it's wrong that they get less exposure than those who bump their work.
> 
> It has led to me becoming increasingly disillusioned with the Poetry section. It has also led me to consider the motives of some people. Yes, many have advertising in their sigs, but they don't try to lord it over new people. I'd rather have 100 over-excited new writers than a handful of peddlars jockeying for front page position.
> 
> Hypocrisy is something I find myself increasingly less tolerant of. When I see you attack newbies for being over-excited, and then you blatantly bump your own work, I can't help but feel that something is not quite right.
> 
> That is why I object to your advertising; not because it is in your sig, but because of the way you consider your work to be more important than that of others, and act as if you have some "right" to be at the top of the list.
> 
> Maybe I shouldn't be surprised at how you treat other writers. After all, every time the boards here crash, your off at .org pontificating, then you come back here and belittle them. Personally, I'd rather see 100 shit writers trying to improve. Mind you, I ain't selling nothing!
> 
> Of course I could be wrong; maybe you need the ego-boost. Either way, I've said what I think. It's not a personal vendetta; it's reminding you that you have a responsibility in this environment to be both fair to others and be true to yourself.


I tend to respond more than most to newbies, Pete. My comment was about growing tired of giving critiques to those who never offer critiques to others whilst flooding the forum. This has been discussed before. As for replying to people who post in my threads, that's simply polite, although I'll admit that I'll often time the replies to bump my work. If I ignore posts then it's usually because I miss them or recognise them as intended to flame.

Self published pamphlets? As also explained in another thread, a group of artists and writers, myself included, have started a publishing initiative of our own making use of a popular POD service for printing and distribution. We are publishing novels and art books as well as collections of poetry.  To some degree it's an experiment to see if we can break free of the constraints of traditional publishing houses. You can call it what you like but that's what it is. I am not hawking it in any way and, again as said before, have not made any mention except in response to direct questions and more in response to your posts than any others. I've had more enquiries about this since you started drawing attention to it than I have all the time I've been posting on these forums.

I don't see that there is really any more to say on this so perhaps this forum could be used for the purpose it is set up for. You know how to use the PM facility if you have any valid questions.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Went away, had holiday, came back, thought better check the new poetry challenge subject or I won't have time to write anything... ? Or am I not looking in the right place?


----------



## MisterJack

Olly Buckle said:


> Went away, had holiday, came back, thought better check the new poetry challenge subject or I won't have time to write anything... ? Or am I not looking in the right place?


 
I didn't go on holiday and am still waiting for the announcement. I believe Ilasir has something 'interesting' lined up for a theme:cheers:

Nice holiday, Olly?


----------



## Mirror

Yes, I, too am awaiting the upcoming theme. Hope Ilasir chooses something that allows plenty of room for _ambiguity_.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

Shawn' respone was "it's gonna be a very interesting competition, but really," I chose a simple theme that's prone to metaphor, and hard to do a literal piece on. I suppose you could be "ambiguous," Mirror, but for you I don't think the theme really matters. Ambiguous is just you're natural state.[-X


P.S. Mirror, I moved that poem over from LM, and I just want you to remember that you asked for it.:-\":bomb:#-o


----------



## Olly Buckle

Jack:- Great thanks, see how was your week.
Ilasir:- Can't wait to hear what it is, not paramecium I suspect.


----------



## Shawn

Olly Buckle said:


> Went away, had holiday, came back, thought better check the new poetry challenge subject or I won't have time to write anything... ? Or am I not looking in the right place?



If everyone is really nice, I'll post the theme announcement on Sunday. 

I think after this next one, now that I'll nail down on how to format judging and such, we'll really get on a roll. I took my time last time to orient myself, but I can see competitions running every three weeks if it happens as quickly as I'd like.


----------



## Shawn

Oh, and again, if anyone would like to volunteer for judging, please PM me.


----------



## Shawn

Just a quick announcement.

I will be extending the submissions for another week due to unforeseen circumstances.

I will also will not be able to get on for the next few weeks, and I will announce a replacement for the administration of the challenge perhaps later today.

Thanks to everyone who has submitted to the challenge so far... and there is a _real_ need for judges, so make sure to contact whoever takes over if you're interested.


----------



## Hawke

Hey all,

Just to say. The challenge will close tomorrow and we are short two judges, so if you're interested, please PM me. 

Thank you.



Update: We have our judges.


----------



## MisterJack

Good to see the judges issue is sorted. I was popping in to see if you had resolved that issue.


Jack


----------



## Wafti

I know I've been away a while but did the whole world have to go into suspended animation?

When will the judges post their results??


----------



## Hawke

Hey Wafti,

You'll find the results here.


----------



## Shawn

Just to inform everyone, the poetry challenge is going to be on delay for another week. There are a few workshops I'm attending this week, as well as a competition, so I won't have time to coordinate everything.

So, just hold your panties on and it'll be up next Monday.


----------



## Cran

:-k

at the risk of being branded a troublemaker, again, 
shouldn't _Regrets_ have closed more than a week ago?


----------



## Shawn

Cran said:


> :-k
> 
> at the risk of being branded a troublemaker, again,
> shouldn't _Regrets_ have closed more than a week ago?



It has been extended consecutively for two weeks. First because of the forum meltdown that went on, and then for the lack of judges.

Which, by the way, ladies and gentlemen, I need volunteers. Not all things in life are free.


----------



## Shawn

Submissions are now closed; but there aren't any judges.

I apologize, but I just don't have time to search for judges. I'm very busy with work, school, and my personal life. I will say what I've said before. You'll have to volunteer, or there is no judging of entries.

I'm sorry it has to be like that and I don't mean to be final about it, but community service is the cornerstone of democracy.

Entries will be judged once there are enough volunteers.


----------



## Cran

What about the previous winner, and the runner-up, 
and tapping a couple of previous judges? 

*Ilasir*, *Baron*, *Foxee* - three good judges who spring to mind ... 
of course they're busy - the good ones are always in demand ... 

Has *Olly* been asked or offered? 

Or any who put hands up for previous challenges, but didn't get the chance? 

*Huni* won an earlier challenge but was unable to participate in the follow-up ...


----------



## Foxee

Sorry, I can't this time around.


----------



## Patrick

Shawn, there are loads of poeple you can ask. Pete would bite your hand off if you gave him the chance - just offer him a banana - and I am sure a polite pm would secure others. Most people won't put their hand up because they don't feel qualified and most of the ones who do don't have a clue anyway.


----------



## Baron

*shakes head, shrugs and walks away*


----------



## Shawn

Mermaid on the breakwater said:


> Shawn, there are loads of poeple you can ask. Pete would bite your hand off if you gave him the chance - just offer him a banana - and I am sure a polite pm would secure others. Most people won't put their hand up because they don't feel qualified and most of the ones who do don't have a clue anyway.



Like I said, I'm not trying to be difficult.

I'm busy, I really am. Right now I'm in the midst of going to the library for work.

If anyone can help, it would be a really big help. This needs to be a community effort.

No one has volunteered to judge for any of the challenges and, right at this moment in time, I need to be off.


----------



## Pete_C

Mermaid on the breakwater said:


> Pete would bite your hand off if you gave him the chance - just offer him a banana.


Gee Mister, thanks for just doing the monkey joke and not putting a burning cross in my garden or lynching my kinsfolk!

Anytime you want to come to Tottenham for some grits and fried chicken, you just say the word.


----------



## Baron

Shawn said:


> Like I said, I'm not trying to be difficult.
> 
> I'm busy, I really am. Right now I'm in the midst of going to the library for work.
> 
> If anyone can help, it would be a really big help. This needs to be a community effort.
> 
> No one has volunteered to judge for any of the challenges and, right at this moment in time, I need to be off.


This isn't true, Shawn.  I have offered.


----------



## vangoghsear

Mermaid on the breakwater said:
			
		

> Most people won't put their hand up because they don't feel qualified...


This describes me pretty well.  I have never taken any poetry courses, I haven't even had college level English (I tested out of it rather than sit through the course).  So all of my knowledge beyond high school is self inflicted.  I would not spot the use of an obscure style or rhythm as anything other than its appearance to me, subtle literary references will go over my head, etc.

There aren't too many poems in this contest, so I think I have time to give judging a try, if my lack of qualifications doesn't matter.


----------



## Shawn

Baron said:


> This isn't true, Shawn.  I have offered.



You're right, Baron. Sorry.

Aside from you, however, there have been no volunteers.


----------



## vangoghsear

vangoghsear said:


> There aren't too many poems in this contest, so *I think I have time to give judging a try*, if my lack of qualifications doesn't matter.


I'll try again. :scratch:


----------



## Foxee

Van, I'm not hugely qualified, either, but the judging guidelines are pretty easy to follow and you are good at knowing what sounds/looks good. You know more than you might realize.


----------



## vangoghsear

Foxee said:


> Van, I'm not hugely qualified, either, but the judging guidelines are pretty easy to follow and you are good at knowing what sounds/looks good. You know more than you might realize.


Thanks Foxee.  I'm pretty insecure about my poetry, that's why I enter the contests, to see where my poems fall in relation to others.  

Like I said, I'll give judging a try.


----------



## Shawn

vangoghsear said:


> I'll try again. :scratch:



Thank you, vangoghsear. You can begin if you'd like, and just PM me your scores... I'll get them up as soon as I have the other three judges in... who they are, I don't know.


----------



## Foxee

vangoghsear said:


> Thanks Foxee.  I'm pretty insecure about my poetry, that's why I enter the contests, to see where my poems fall in relation to others.
> 
> Like I said, I'll give judging a try.


If that is the case, you should be feeling more secure about it.


----------



## vangoghsear

Shawn said:


> Thank you, vangoghsear. You can begin if you'd like, and just PM me your scores... I'll get them up as soon as I have the other three judges in... who they are, I don't know.



:thumbl:

I'm on it.



			
				Foxee said:
			
		

> If that is the case, you should be feeling more secure about it.



Yeah, I have been.  I get good feed back here.  Very helpful.


----------



## Baron

Shawn said:


> Thank you, vangoghsear. You can begin if you'd like, and just PM me your scores... I'll get them up as soon as I have the other three judges in... who they are, I don't know.


I'm sure that those who have posted for this challenge do not want to wait indefinately for some feedback on their work.  I, for one, will be pulling my poem and posting it in the main poetry forum if this isn't resolved in a few days.


----------



## Patrick

I think a good session is in order, Shawn. You need to let your hair down a bit.


----------



## Shawn

Mermaid on the breakwater said:


> I think a good session is in order, Shawn. You need to let your hair down a bit.



It will be done. But I must make this point, and I must make it clear. After this competition is said and done with, I will ascertain whether or not this is a community effort, or if it is viewed as a one hour photo.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

Baron said:


> I'm sure that those who have posted for this challenge do not want to wait indefinately for some feedback on their work. I, for one, will be pulling my poem and posting it in the main poetry forum if this isn't resolved in a few days.


 
I've always had the understanding that posting in the main forum was perfectly legal as long as changes there didn't translate to changes here.


If you're still hard up for judges, I'll volunteer, Shawn.  It'd be a shame to see this challenge go down the tubes.


----------



## Shawn

I would really appreciate that, Ilasir. Just PM me your scores when you are finished, and I'll also give you a cookie.


----------



## vangoghsear

Shawn said:


> I would really appreciate that, Ilasir. Just PM me your scores when you are finished, and I'll also give you a cookie.


Hey!  You never promised me a cookie!  :cry:

My scores are done.  I want to check them one more time, then I will send them tonight.


----------



## Amber Leaf

I promise I'll judge on the next competition (if you all reckon I'm good enough of course) if it means that it can carry on. 

I really hav'nt got the time for this one. Sorry.

I really don't want to see the poetry stop.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

Shawn said:


> I would really appreciate that, Ilasir. Just PM me your scores when you are finished, and I'll also give you a cookie.


 

I'll have them done as soon as possible, hopefully tomorrow if nothing comes up.  Hope that's soon enough! O


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

Something came up... 

but I'll definitely have them finished and in by tomorrow, Shawn.


----------



## Shawn

As a quick update, I should have the scores up within the next couple of days.

We'll then discuss where this competition is going from there.


----------



## Baron

Shawn said:


> As a quick update, I should have the scores up within the next couple of days.
> 
> We'll then discuss where this competition is going from there.


 
Are those scores not in yet?


----------



## Garden of Kadesh

Couple of days my ___


----------



## MisterJack

?

ok, anything? Anyone??:razz:


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

It has been awhile.  Does anyone know if further judges (beyond cran and I) have been asked for scores?  Perhaps that's what shawn is waiting for?


----------



## Baron

Ilasir Maroa said:


> It has been awhile. Does anyone know if further judges (beyond cran and I) have been asked for scores? Perhaps that's what shawn is waiting for?


I sent my scores to Shawn over a week ago...


----------



## Cran

Ilasir Maroa said:


> It has been awhile. Does anyone know if further judges (beyond cran and I) have been asked for scores? Perhaps that's what shawn is waiting for?



um ... I wasn't asked ... _persona non grata_, and all that ... 

I think it was *Van* who judged ...


----------



## Baron

Cran said:


> um ... I wasn't asked ... *persona non grata, and all that ... *
> 
> I think it was *Van* who judged ...


 
I'm sure there must be some place on the internet where you're wanted, Cran :-\" :bomb: :clown:


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

Cran said:


> um ... I wasn't asked ... _persona non grata_, and all that ...
> 
> I think it was *Van* who judged ...


 

Lol, need to get more beauty sleep, sorry.


----------



## vangoghsear

Cran said:


> um ... I wasn't asked ... _persona non grata_, and all that ...
> 
> I think it was *Van* who judged ...


It was me.  My scores were in a couple of weeks ago.

I'm sure Shawn must be pretty busy.


----------



## valeca

vangoghsear said:


> I'm sure Shawn must be pretty busy.



Yep, he is.  

Judges, please send me your scores and I'll post them up as soon as I have them all.


----------



## Cran

Baron said:


> I'm sure there must be some place on the internet where you're wanted, Cran :-\" :bomb: :clown:



Perhaps ... but I just checked the ASIO, Interpol and FBI listings - 
and I'm not the most wanted :cry:


----------



## vangoghsear

Cran said:


> Perhaps ... *but I just checked the ASIO, Interpol and FBI listings -*
> and I'm not the most wanted :cry:


They see you checking that, you may move up.


----------



## Cran

me? 
I don't know nuttin' 'bout dem computers! 
>hack!< >hack!< ... err, I mean ... >cough!<  >cough!< ...


----------



## Patrick

Cran said:


> me?
> I don't know nuttin' 'bout dem computers!
> >hack!< >hack!< ... err, I mean ... >cough!<  >cough!< ...



Cran - we all love you, my beauty.


----------



## Garden of Kadesh

Speak for yourself. :twisted:


----------



## Cran

Mermaid on the breakwater said:


> Cran - we all love you, my beauty.


 ooh, I haven't been called _my beauty _for a long time - years, actually ... 

I think I'll go and blush now ...


----------



## Baron

Does the LM poetry challenge have a future?  There really doesn't seem to be much happening now.


----------



## Patrick

Well?


----------



## Shawn

I will have to ask the staff if one of them would like to continue it. I'm going to be in and out for quite a while and I just can't devote the time to the challenge that I know you guys deserve.


----------



## Cran

isn't that just the way? 
you plan, settle into a routine ... then that damned "real life" thing interferes ... 

well, let me be the first to say, 
"thanks for the time and effort, *Shawn*, and sorry to see you move on ..."


----------



## Vincent Santa Cruz

Doesn't the notion of a poetry competition invalidate the very essence of poetry?

Unless, of course, you just want a big badge with WINNER on it.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

Vincent Santa Cruz said:


> Doesn't the notion of a poetry competition invalidate the very essence of poetry?
> 
> Unless, of course, you just want a big badge with WINNER on it.


 

Quite so.  You can't prove I'm not better than Byron.:thumbr:



But really, it's just a bit of fun to encourage people to write.


----------



## Patrick

It's a challenge, not a competition :tongue:.


----------



## Cran

Vincent Santa Cruz said:


> Doesn't the notion of a poetry competition invalidate the very essence of poetry?
> ...


Welcome to WF, *Vincent Santa Cruz* ... 

perhaps you'd care to explain just what is "_the very essence of poetry_" ...

and how it could possibly be invalidated by anything?


----------



## Vincent Santa Cruz

Ilasir Maroa said:


> But really, it's just a bit of fun to encourage people to write.


Then why not just use a subject as a prompt, and write? Why bother with scores and judges and complex schemes; whenever I see writing competitions on forums they usually end up as a dreary perpetual reinforcement of nothing, becausemost writers see that the structure of said competition is flawed, and subsequently avoid it.

Or, as Cran has attempted, the whole 'what is poetry/art/the meaning of creativity' debates get dragged up so people who are limited in their viewpoint can abuse others who aren't.

The point I'm making, without trying to rattle Mr (Mrs) Cran's cage, is that poetry, or prose, are not competitive arenas.


----------



## Baron

Vincent Santa Cruz said:


> Then why not just use a subject as a prompt, and write? Why bother with scores and judges and complex schemes; whenever I see writing competitions on forums they usually end up as a dreary perpetual reinforcement of nothing, becausemost writers see that the structure of said competition is flawed, and subsequently avoid it.
> 
> Or, as Cran has attempted, the whole 'what is poetry/art/the meaning of creativity' debates get dragged up so people who are limited in their viewpoint can abuse others who aren't.
> 
> The point I'm making, without trying to rattle Mr (Mrs) Cran's cage, is that poetry, or prose, are not competitive arenas.


Better tell that to the Booker and Pullitzer prize organisers.  The reality is that a competitive arena is entered the moment an author or poet starts looking to get published.


----------



## valeca

_Moderation Note:  Several posts removed from thread d/t childish behavior.

_


----------



## Patrick

valeca said:


> _Moderation Note:  Several posts removed from thread d/t childish behavior.
> 
> _




But no moderation note regarding the challenge?


----------



## Amber Leaf

Tell me how to go about doing it and I'll have a go at organising the poetry challenge if you like.

(btw... I am serious)


----------



## Baron

Amber Leaf said:


> Tell me how to go about doing it and I'll have a go at organising the poetry challenge if you like.
> 
> (btw... I am serious)


No replies ???

[-X


----------



## Shawn

Not all discussions are in the public eye.

If you'd like a challenge for the time being, Baron, you can continue your previous system.


----------



## Baron

Shawn said:


> Not all discussions are in the public eye.
> 
> If you'd like a challenge for the time being, Baron, you can continue your previous system.


If I had time then I would happily do so.  Perhaps Amber Leaf might take up that one though.  When you come down from your pedestal you might realise that there is advantage in maintaining communication with your members.

](*,)


----------



## Shawn

Baron said:


> If I had time then I would happily do so.  Perhaps Amber Leaf might take up that one though.  When you come down from your pedestal you might realise that there is advantage in maintaining communication with your members.
> 
> ](*,)



I'm not on a pedestal, I'm trying to keep the challenge going despite my inability to administer it. I'll be away for most of this entire year.


----------



## Amber Leaf

I've spoken to Olly via PM and he suggested doing the Poetry challenge but said he needed to talk to Shawn.

I wouldn't have a clue about how to post the challanges.

What I could do is start a poetry challange in the poetry section. I will only do this though if a few people will message me to say that they will judge and if admin staff will close threads when the challange finishes.

Anybody up for it?


----------



## Cran

Amber Leaf said:


> I've spoken to Olly via PM and he suggested doing the Poetry challenge but said he needed to talk to Shawn.


Perhaps give *Olly* time to do that ... 



> I wouldn't have a clue about how to post the challanges.
> 
> What I could do is start a poetry challange in the poetry section. I will only do this though if a few people will message me to say that they will judge and if admin staff will close threads when the challange finishes.
> 
> Anybody up for it?


If I recall, *Amber Leaf*, you've participated in the challenges from the first? 
You understand, then, that you are suggesting a return to _Square 1_ ... 
and that asking for volunteer judges has not worked all that well in the past ... 
and that admin had expressed concerns about challenge threads in _Poetry_, with added monitoring and duties, etc ... 
which contributed to the _Poetry Challenge_ section being set up here ... 

so, again, perhaps give *Olly* time to discuss things with *Shawn*?


----------



## Amber Leaf

OK Whatever???

It looks like I've been given the go ahead. 

Who wants to judge for the poetry competition then?

I'm going to post up the challange (besed on Mermaid's suggestion) today or tommorow (if all goes) well so if anyone wants to judge then feel free to PM me.

If it doesn't work and and not enough people are into it or have the time to cope with it then fair enough but it's worth a last try I suppose.


----------



## Olly Buckle

People will be in to it OK, we like a challenge. I'll be a judge if you are short of volunteers.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

I'm willing to judge if you are short volunteers.


----------



## Amber Leaf

Nice one. Ill post the challenge up tommorow (didn't want it to finish on a weekend and me be too busy to close it down in four weeks time).

I'll definatly take you up on that offer Ilasir. I'll PM you when I've posted the competition etc...


----------



## Cran

is it just me, or has it gone very quiet in here?


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

Cran said:


> is it just me, or has it gone very quiet in here?


 

It's not _just_ you...


----------



## Amber Leaf

Sorry I've been away for so long. I've been doing stupid hours at work (I'm even there now) and uni as well so have been very lax at sorting this out.

If anyone would like to judge I'd really appreciate it if you Pm'd me and I will send you the details on how to judge.


----------



## Baron

This parrot is not dead...  It's defunct, deceased, gone before...

YouTube - Monty Python - Dead Parrot


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

So have we given up?


----------



## Baron

Ilasir Maroa said:


> So have we given up?


 
I refer to my previous post.  =;


----------



## For me with Squalor

What exactly are the hold ups and who needs to be contacted....who needs to wake up...who doesn't have time.....why don't they pass it on to someone with time, why do I have to write the words 'why' and 'who' so much. I sound like a palestinian woman crying over her dead son.


----------



## Olly Buckle

I wrote to Amber just before this thread started up again asking if she had any replies to her request for judges and if anything was happening. I haven't got a reply yet. I think there are two problems here. Firstly an unwillingness to put in the work necessary for judging and secondly that Amber has been accepted on a university course but is still having to work to fund herself through it, which is putting a huge strain on her. 
I have had some thoughts on this which I discussed with her some time ago and I will try and write them up and present them in a lucid form soon, I have been ill lately and everything has been getting on top of me a bit too. I think the bottom line is that we can't rely on volunteers to do things for us, it was too much for Shawn and now, I think, Amber, things come up unexpectedly. In one sense it really doesn't matter about winners, there are no prizes, it is nice to have a yardstick for comparison of your efforts and it gives us a person to choose the next subject. I am thinking of ways in which competitors can assess each other. Any views please pm me. I don't think it is worth getting into a long discussion to set up a system which falls at the second hurdle and as I would be the one closing threads and tabulating scores (I don't think there are any other staff with sufficient interest) I feel justified in being a little autocratic in the interests of efficiency. That said I am very open to suggestions.


----------



## Cran

Olly said:
			
		

> ...an unwillingness to put in the work necessary for judging...



I don't think an _unwillingness to volunteer_ equals an _unwillingness to do the work 
_... and I think it's more an unwillingness to volunteer, 
for whatever reason (shyness, modesty, previous clashes or rebuffs, etc ... 
or it might even be giving up the chance of winning) ...


----------



## Nimbus1944

Thousands of people run in a marathon knowing they don't stand a chance of winning. 

As one of the submitters in the Spaces challenge, congratulations to the other poets for their fine work.   I've enjoyed many WritingForums challenges that had no judging, so my day won't be spoiled by whatever happens.  

Might I suggest "Moving On" for the next topic, and then maybe we could move on -- without judges?

Cheers,
Mike


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

What I feel is really necessary for success is to have a staff member handle the organization.  That was the whole purpose of moving the contest to its own forum section in the first place.  Unfortunately, the last few staff members to take on the Challenge had to step down due to various reasons.  Also, many of the members who supported the Challenge have not been as active on the site lately, and few of the newer members interested in poetry have stepped in to fill their place.

I agree with Cran that a hesitance to volunteer doesn't imply a hesitance to do work.  The problem is getting enough people signed up at the same time to spread the burden around.  

I offered to be a judge for this challenge when Amber first took over.  I explained that I had judged before, both officially and when this was still in the Poetry section and was familiar with the current protocol. But as far as I can remember, things came up again, and I was the only volunteer.  Then she became busy.  

I told her to get back to me when she was ready to pick up the Challenge again.  Unfortunately, no other volunteers ever appeared, and I was and am very reticent towards being the only judge.


I'm afraid I don't have any suggestions for the type of system you propose, Olly, but if there is anything I can do to help, I will try to make myself available.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Judges and scoring.
  The first thing I am going to try out is that the entrants should be the judges, this will not be compulsory, I do not want people to feel barred from entering because they are nervous about judging. So I will send this as a PM to the people who entered asking them for:-
  Five points each for
  1.How well can you see the theme of the poem?
  2.How good is grammar and spelling?
  3.How well is it put together and how well does it use poetic devices?
  4.How original is it?
  5.How much does it appeal to you personally?
  If they reply within the next four days (that includes a weekend and should give them all a chance) I will tot up the scores and publish them along with any comments.
  Scores and comments to me personally by PM please.
  If I receive no scores I will take an arbitrary decision to keep things moving, like a name out of a hat.
  If I receive only one submission of scores I will declare that person the winner and ask them for the next subject. 
  Any one who wants to suggest changes or amendments to this system send me a PM.
  This is not designed to be fair, just and democratic but to keep things moving. I am reminded of the Duke of Wellingtons comment that the enemies system of operation was like a beautiful harness that worked perfectly until a strap broke when it became useless, his was constructed out of old rope but kept the show on the road, if something broke he tied a knot. I am open to suggestion and trying things out but meanwhile we push on.
   Another analogy might be building a body of case law rather than adopting a Napoleonic Code or constitution


----------



## Olly Buckle

PM's sent, watch this space, with a bit of luck you will have a new subject to exercise your brains on before next weekend.


----------



## Olly Buckle

So there is a new subject up in the poetry challenge, I hope you will all be entering.
In the meantime here are some thoughts I would appreciate feedback on.

In the last contest not everyone voted, no problem I can adjust the scores so those who don't vote don't effectively get an extra vote, however only one person passed comments on the poems. If I publish these alongside the scores it becomes instantly obvious who made the comments, the one not commented on. I felt this might restrict peoples willingness to be totally honest so I have kept them to myself and will pm them to anybody who would like to know what was said about them. 
 Good critique is useful, but I don't want to open the scoring thread to all sorts of chat and comment, equally I don't want to give myself extra work cutting and pasting all the comments made, any suggestions or ideas here?

At present we have two weeks to submit work and then two weeks for the judging process. This seems like long enough to lose interest/ forget about it. I would like to make the turn around time quicker. 
 Another possibility that occurs to me is to double up, so that we start another contest half way through this one, that way you would not have to wait a whole month if you didn't fancy the current subject, as well as making the challenge more frequent for those who enter everything.
 Do let's hear your thoughts on this as well as any ideas you may have to spice things up.


----------



## Baron

*Cheesed off*

After the work that I put in to create this challenge in the first place, followed by the great promises of staff which resulted in Shawn's total screw up of the challenge I can only let this video express my own feelings...

YouTube - Dudley Moore and Peter Cook Sing "Goodbye"


----------



## For me with Squalor

What is the submission deadline, and will the judging be the same as in the previous contest? One thing I think that with only 5 aspects being graded in the poem, the fact that how much the poem appealed to you personally should be such a decider is a little unbalanced I believe. For example and rich and well written poem lets say gets 4 5 5 4 but I didn't like it all that much as it was about butterfly's and I hate butterfly's because I have cocoon fobia, then I will take a lot away by giving it an honest 2! resulting in a 20/25 poem instead of a 23 or 24 which the poem itself might deserve. Anyway maybe only I feel this way, I don't have any alternative suggestions atm but I can come up with something if necessary!


----------



## Olly Buckle

The deadline is next Wednesday, a fortnight for submissions, a fortnight for judging and posting the results, a competition once a month according to Shawn's guidelines.
  My new proposal is to keep that but have a second subject running back to back so a new competition starts every fortnight. Maybe even make those two week periods ten day ones, most entries seem to have come in in the first week.
 The criteria of how much the poem appealed to you personally was something I put in, the original five criteria included thematic resonance and thematic impact. I found the two of these confusing and thought it might be a good idea to keep it fairly simple if we are going to ask the competitors to judge each other rather than have an expert panel. I also felt it would be possible to have a technically wonderful poem that no-one liked winning which seemed wrong. high handed of me, I know, but I was desperate to get things moving at that point. I refer you to post 262 above which outlined the method and which I used as a formatt for a pm to each of the contestants, I guess in future I will give ten days to reply so I allow myself a few days to add the scores up and create the "score" thread.
 I am well encouraged seeing some one taking an interest here and seeing entries coming in.


----------



## Baron

I think that you're getting so few entries that you should just set up a poll and let it be decided by popular vote.  This is the method that worked best when the challenge was first started.


----------



## Olly Buckle

That would certainly make it simple for me, not that that is the main consideration.
Perhaps a poll with an introduction suggesting how to assess a poem?
All further comments and suggestions welcome.


----------



## Baron

Olly Buckle said:


> That would certainly make it simple for me, not that that is the main consideration.
> Perhaps a poll with an introduction suggesting how to assess a poem?
> All further comments and suggestions welcome.


 

Olly, people who buy books, poetry or whatever, buy because the content grabs them in some way.  "Joe Public" may know nothing about writing excellence but he does know what he likes and what he doesn't like.  Writers can get great praise on the forums and yet get nothing but rejection slips from publishers simply because they are not writing something that will connect with a general readership.  Something that I have always been in agreement with Pete C about is that writers who want to be published and to sell their work should write to reach readers.

With all this in mind, I would suggest that you don't try to guide the voting at all but let the readers vote on the basis of what they like.  This gives a much more real view of what's likely to have any degree of general popularity.  Those inclined to do so are always free to add a technical critique with their vote.


----------



## Ilasir Maroa

Sounds like the right way to be doing.  If you aren't going to have an "expert" panel, there's really no reason to use a judging system designed for that type of group in mind.  Writingforums.org uses a public poll, and though I wouldn't say the best poem always wins, most people seem generally happy with the results.


----------



## For me with Squalor

I shall concur, with this idea. I have to, since nothing is happening no members are stepping up. We should work on marketing though, I think that's more of a problem than the "poets" grading ability. We should (I'm trying to be ginger with we, as I am not around often) try and push for this in the poetry section, I know Olly has posted there. But I think some of the new posters/poets are simply afraid to participate in a "challenge" 
and/or really do not know about it. So if the public wants Barabas let them have him over Jesus or Britney Spears or whatever they want, but poetry should not be in and never has really been in the hands of the larger public. (As far as I can tell) 
All I'm saying is fine lets do the poll thing now as it is the easiest way, but we (there I go again using we) should try and build this challenge up again to its former well gardened state!


----------



## Patrick

The audience most likely to make up the bulk of sales is the general public, for me, if we're not going to write for them, or get any feedback from them, I would only question how much people want to get published. They don't necessarily have to, but a poll does not negate your peers leaving critical comments on the piece.


I appreciate that you are taking some time on this, Olly. You seem to be the only staff member who is, or who can. I did volunteer to judge the next challenge but I just haven't heard anything in response. I disclosed my offer in the form of a pm to amber leaf but it appears she has too much on her plate, which I can understand.


I lost interest in this a while ago, to be honest, simply because there was not a concerted effort to maintain standards, and there doesn't seem to be in the other boards either. Sorry to be such a doom and gloom merchant.

I can only echo what Rob has had to say: the challenge worked better in the hands of the competitors and I hate to say I told you so, but I made many points to that end before the challenge was moved here. Now we're trying to pull in regular "old-timers" when they left the building aeons ago.


----------



## SadLuckDame

I'm happy with the voting set up for public poll. Honestly, I believe it'll attract a larger amount of entries. It appeals to me, more so, because I recall the poetry competition when I first joined WF. I was but a babe, and it was highly intimidating to be judged on the guidelines at the time. I wouldn't be intimidated now, seasoned from critiquing and poetry lingo often enough. But if the idea is to attract even the newest members, or those shy, ect. public poll is ideal.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Two weeks and we have had a single vote in the poetry challenge. I am not appealing to you to rush off and vote, that makes me feel like a holiday camp cheer leader, also the last thing I want is a number of entries with only one vote and a multiply tied result. It has, however, caused me to think about the purpose and appeal of the challenge.
   Let’s be clear there is an appeal, six well crafted poems entered and some 330+ views.  

*So, why the challenge? *

  Is it an exercise for the poet rather than an expression of experience? 
   In choosing the RTA subject I deliberately tried to choose a subject people would have a connection with. I reasoned the force of a poem is primarily in the experience it voices, the language used to express it is secondary, the means of expression. Here the experience is given and the poet has two ways to be original; their ‘take’ on the subject; and the use of language. Exploring these seems an intellectual exercise, the initial impulse for most poems is an emotional experience.

*Does winning or losing matter to you?*

   Most entrants don’t vote and there is no canvassing of votes as in the other challenges, is the exercise the challenge rather than the contest? Could we could do away with the voting and allow people to comment immediately? There are alternative ways of choosing a subject and finding judges was a problem before, is winning and losing an anathema to poets?
  Lots of questions, please let me have your thoughts, it’s your contest and I want to make it work for you.


----------



## moderan

Olly, you should advertise the challenges in the Site Announcements section and in the Poetry section. I'm sure the mods of each would be more than willing to cooperate. And the winner, if they should so choose, can have the same reward as the LM winner(s).


----------



## The Backward OX

ChestersDaughter said:


> a bunch of ho hos
> will kill off your crabs


 
I know Olly said not to make any comments in this thread, but this....




Mod note: No comments means "no comments".  No exceptions and no buts.


----------



## moderan

Mr Olly-by-golly, is the laughter competition over? Is it by poll that the winner is being determined?


----------



## Baron

This thread seems to be unused while certain people think it's okay to disrupt the challenges and prompts with their off topic comments.  Any discussion of any of the prompts can be done here so that the enjoyment of others in the challenges isn't spoiled.


----------



## Olly Buckle

(Isn't it OX who keeps complaining about others' lines not scanning? ](*,) )
 Yes, he really could try harder, compare,

Strapped on his bombs and kissed his donkey goodbye
To
Strapped bombs on and kissed donkey goodbye

Which has internal rhyme, rhythm, everything, so close and yet so far, I feel you need to read more poetry Ox (Now where is the tongue in cheek smiley?)


----------



## The Backward OX

> This thread seems to be unused while certain people think it's okay to disrupt the challenges and prompts with their off topic comments. Any discussion of any of the prompts can be done here so that the enjoyment of others in the challenges isn't spoiled.


I don't know about any other threads, but if the Limerick thread is included in this comment, my two pennorth is that the banter is _not _off topic but is as much a part of the scene as are the horribly-rhyming apologies for limericks; any Johnny-come-latelys could spend some time scrolling back through the thread to confirm this is so.

Besides, many people are probably unaware of this thread; and even if awareness existed they are hardly likely to follow each other around for the purpose of commenting on each others' posts in a different thread.


----------



## Baron

The Backward OX said:


> I don't know about any other threads, but if the Limerick thread is included in this comment, my two pennorth is that the banter is _not _off topic but is as much a part of the scene as are the horribly-rhyming apologies for limericks; any Johnny-come-latelys could spend some time scrolling back through the thread to confirm this is so.
> 
> Besides, many people are probably unaware of this thread; and even if awareness existed they are hardly likely to follow each other around for the purpose of commenting on each others' posts in a different thread.


 
Wrong.


----------



## Scarlett_156

If nothing else, the internet discussion forum, regardless of subject, is The Premier Place for displays of over-caffeinated, bristling, causeless antagonism. And that's a good thing, in my opinion! 

Anything to keep em off the road while I'm trying to have fun on my bike.  Those Road Rage guys I used to always encounter on the highway back in the 80s and early 90s (like the trucker who threw a stick of firewood out his window at me) are actually a lot more scarce now that they have the internet to keep them occupied.  Sure, there are more coked-up gangsters moving contraband, but for the most part they are trying to move on and not attract attention. 

Internet, I <3 U!!!!


----------



## Baron

I don't know that they suffer road rage on Snakebite River.  Roo rage, perhaps.


----------



## The Backward OX

Baron said:


> Wrong.


Eh?


----------



## Olly Buckle

I have reconsidered and created a new chat thread in prompts and challenges to which I moved this post.


----------



## Baron

Come on, people, your votes are needed in the poetry challenge.  Some comments would be nice too.  So far we have ten voters but not a single comment on the poetry.


----------



## Olly Buckle

What do people think about the December challenge finishing on Christmas Eve? You may have noticed I wrote "14 lines" about it in poetry, That led to the suggestion that maybe it should stay open a little longer than the standard period. Have you any thoughts on this?


----------



## Baron

I think it would be better to let this one run until after Christmas.  As well as giving time for more possible entries it would also probably benefit the voting, which would probably not get much response over the holiday.


----------



## Olly Buckle

I am not so sure, Nick has just entered, that brings entries up to five, and still a while to go. The voting period will be after the main hooha of Christmas, people may well be sitting around a bit bored by the day after Boxing day, though we might miss out on those who log in at work.


----------



## Baron

As an additional bonus, winners of the challenge will be given a one month free FoWF subscription. If they are already a subscribers then they may nominate any member of their choice to get the free subscription.


----------



## Slugfly

What is FoWF?  I assume "WF" is something about the Writing Forums, but Fo?  What's it fo?


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Dear Slugfly, FoWF stands for Friends of Writing Forums. Members who contribute to help maintain the site are afforded certain perks. For details, please click on Home at the top of the page.


----------



## Nick

Good choice for this month's challenge, Baron. I'm interested to see how people interpret this one with some originality.


----------



## Squalid Glass

Excellent poem, Nick. I loved your last line.


----------



## Nick

Thank you for the kind words, Squalid. And may I just say, _Crossfire_ was absolutely chilling; I had to read over it again and again. Looks like we could have a very good month for the poetry challenge.


----------



## Gumby

Fifteen entries and still plenty of time left for more in the new poetry challenge. This is more entries than I've ever seen.  :thumbl:


----------



## Leyline

My favorite entries so far are Gumby's and Nicks, but they're all of high quality and quite powerful. A good challenge, with stiff competition.


----------



## Jinxi

The entries are all incredibly good! I have no idea how I am going to vote for just one!


----------



## Baron

Jinxi said:


> The entries are all incredibly good! I have no idea how I am going to vote for just one!


 
Then it's as well that you get to vote for three.


----------



## Jinxi

Baron said:


> Then it's as well that you get to vote for three.


 

Awesome :-D I feel like I should have known that 8-[


----------



## TheFuhrer02

Looks like Baron and Apple are going to be the front-runners again in the current competition. Well done to both of them!


----------



## kennyc

Nice challenge topic. Nice work everyone. I've got some thoughts and will see if I can get something postable this week. 

Also, I hope this isn't out of line (I'm new 'round here) but this immediately made me think of one of my favorite songs/lyrics by the Bee Gees:


WORDS (Barry Gibb / Maurice Gibb / Robin Gibb) 

smile an ever lasting smile  
a smile can bring you near to me  
don't ever let me find you gone  
'cause that would bring a tear to me  
this world has lost its glory  
let's start a brand new story  
now my love  
you think that I don't even mean  
a single word I say  

it's only words  
and words are all I have  
to take your heart away  

talk in ever lasting words  
and dedicate them all to me  
and I will give you all my life  
i'm here if you should call to me  
you think that I don't even mean  
a single word I say  

it's only words  
and words are all I have  
to take your heart away  

it's only words  
and words are all I have  
to take your heart away  

da da da da da da da  
da da da da da da da da da da  
da da da da da da da  
da da da da da da da da da da  

this world has lost its glory  
let's start a brand new story  
now my love  
you think that I don't even mean  
a single word I say  

it's only words  
and words are all I have  
to take your heart away  

it's only words  
and words are all I have  
to take your heart away  

it's only words  
and words are all I have  
to take your heart away


----------



## Baron

I'd like to remind people who enter the challenges that work must be complete when posted.  There is a sticky to this effect and people would be advised to read the conditions of the challenge before posting.  It's sad that work edited after posting may be removed or not counted when it comes to voting.

http://www.writingforums.com/poetry-challenges/115687-wf-poetry-challenges.html#post1420300


----------



## candid petunia

I didn't know that works edited wouldn't be counted when voting...


----------



## candid petunia

Regarding the May-June Challenge... Aww I really liked NeoCaesar's post. But I guess it's fair enough. And after being reminded so many times too... Is there any other way to keep reminding people?


----------



## Baron

candid petunia said:


> Regarding the May-June Challenge... Aww I really liked NeoCaesar's post. But I guess it's fair enough. And after being reminded so many times too... Is there any other way to keep reminding people?


 
They only have to read the challenge guidelines before posting.


----------



## candid petunia

By the looks of it, most people don't.


----------



## Baron

In reality this doesn't happen very often.  The problem is that when people see that one person has edited a post then they think it's alright.  We take this seriously because there are those who want to publish and submit to prize competitions and the discipline of only posting work that's ready to go is a good one.


----------



## Flapjack

Uh! I just read what I wrote for this challenge...too bad about that no editing rule. Such a cheesy ending. I'm supposed to be deep and dark! Alas...aparently I have a "honey" center...

Oh, by the way, some great poems everyone! Going to be hard to choose.


----------



## candid petunia

^ I'd noticed you'd just 'typed in' your poem even for the previous challenge. Or that's what you'd said. 

I have a poem in my mind but unable to get it on paper. Frustrating. X\'D Don't think I can post for this challenge. Have exams from Friday too, so can't spend a lot of time over it.


----------



## Flapjack

Not this time. I spent an hour or so working on it yesterday. I have been having trouble sleeping and it must have been influenced by insomnia!

Like I said to someone else earlier, procrastinate your posting and do your studies! Best of luck on your finals.


----------



## Jinxi

Wow, 16 great entries with one more day to go!


----------



## Squalid Glass

Another month full of some great entries!


----------



## Squalid Glass

I only voted for Martin. I thought the poem was strong in relation to the category of the contest, and I really loved the use of internal rhyme and repetition of sounds throughout the piece. It had a soft, lazy feel to it, and I really felt like I could feel the person being described.


----------



## Baron

Squalid Glass said:


> I only voted for Martin. I thought the poem was strong in relation to the category of the contest, and I really loved the use of internal rhyme and repetition of sounds throughout the piece. It had a soft, lazy feel to it, and I really felt like I could feel the person being described.



There's a reason why people are asked to vote for three poems.  When I've noticed that only one has been voted for I've deleted that vote to keep the contest fair.  People could just rack up votes for someone who is popular on the poetry forum and not even bother reading the others.


----------



## Squalid Glass

I don't think that's particularly fair. I voted for Martin's poem because I thought it was the best poem. If all three of my votes are assigned the same point value, then I see no point in using the other two when I don't think the other poems I vote for are as good as the original one I voted for.

Baron - appreciate these posts being moved here so as not to disrupt discussion of the poems themselves in the poll thread. Good call. I am wondering, though, if my first post about Martin's poem could be moved back? I think since it is nothing but a critique of the poem, it belongs in the original thread (I think Martin deserves the praise to be in the appropriate thread as well).


----------



## Baron

Squalid Glass said:


> I don't think that's particularly fair. I voted for Martin's poem because I thought it was the best poem. If all three of my votes are assigned the same point value, then I see no point in using the other two when I don't think the other poems I vote for are as good as the original one I voted for.



The voting system is set up this way because it is the most fair to newcomers to the board as well as older members.  It isn't up for debate.


----------



## Squalid Glass

That's fine, and I don't mean to start a debate or change rules or anything, but I do take issue with votes being deleted when they were cast after proper analysis of all the entries.


----------



## Baron

Squalid Glass said:


> That's fine, and I don't mean to start a debate or change rules or anything, but I do take issue with votes being deleted when they were cast after proper analysis of all the entries.



The opening post in every challenge has quite clearly asked for people to vote for the *three poems* they like best.  This is about what's fair to all entrants, not what one voter thinks is fair.


----------



## Squalid Glass

Again, that's fine, and if that's how you want it to be I have no problem voting for three from here on out. But, again, my issue was with deleting votes which seems unfair to the contest as a whole more so than one voter.


----------



## Baron

Squalid Glass said:


> Again, that's fine, and if that's how you want it to be I have no problem voting for three from here on out. But, again, my issue was with deleting votes which seems unfair to the contest as a whole more so than one voter.



People who ignore the voting rules are behaving in a way that's unfair to the contest as a whole.  That's really all there is to it.


----------



## Squalid Glass

Well I suppose I'll leave it there then. Agree to disagree.


----------



## Martin

Squalid Glass said:


> I voted for Martin. I thought the poem was strong in relation to the category of the contest, and I really loved the use of internal rhyme and repetition of sounds throughout the piece. It had a soft, lazy feel to it, and I really felt like I could feel the person being described.



Cheers Squalid. I cast a vote for your piece as well. I liked the fact that I think you wrote it _for_ the contest. Mine was dug up and merely dusted off, but I thought it fit well with the "your" in the subject...


----------



## candid petunia

Deadline for this challenge is 15th August. 15th Aug is Independence Day for India, just saying. (That's what first clicked in my mind). O


----------



## candid petunia

There will be a lot of entries this time. :wink2:


----------



## The Backward OX

I’ve just been having a browse through the last couple of pages of posts. Why is it there is always so much “discussion” going on about comparisons between poems? You don’t see this level of emotion amongst prose writers. Are poets in some way different to the rest of us?


----------



## Gumby

Do we seem different? :single_eye:


----------



## Prof

Rest of us?  What rest of us?  We are all individuals, some of whom write poetry and like to talk of it.  Others  like baseball and like to talk of that.  Why would you be surprised to find a lot of talk about poetry on a poetry site?

Besides that, look again at the prose sections.  You will find a lot of discussion.


----------



## candid petunia

The Backward OX said:


> I’ve just been having a browse through the last couple of pages of posts. Why is it there is always so much “discussion” going on about comparisons between poems? You don’t see this level of emotion amongst prose writers. Are poets in some way different to the rest of us?



Maybe poets are highly emotive. :distant:


----------



## aj47

Hi

I *HOPE* we talk about poetry here.  

I like to write forms.  Recently I had a formal-styled poem accepted by a baseball literary magazine.  But they rejected stuff too.  May I post the rejected stuff to get feedback on how to make it right?  I don't know the policy on "old" poems.

Back to forms.  It's like creating a verbal snowflake.  There's nothing wrong with verbal cupcakes but dayum, I sometimes get the yen to put lots of effort into finding words and ordering them to create a formal work. I especially like villanelle and acrostic sonnet (you'd be *amazed* at how many words and phrases have fourteen letters).

I don't want to convert anyone.  For me, it's constrained, not forced and if it's forced for you, maybe it's not the right path for you to follow.


----------



## Baron

The Backward OX said:


> I’ve just been having a browse through the last couple of pages of posts. Why is it there is always so much “discussion” going on about comparisons between poems? You don’t see this level of emotion amongst prose writers. Are poets in some way different to the rest of us?



Those who can, _do_; those who can't, _teach_; those who can't even teach, _criticise_.


----------



## Nick

astroannie said:


> Hi
> 
> I *HOPE* we talk about poetry here.
> 
> I like to write forms.  Recently I had a formal-styled poem accepted by a baseball literary magazine.  But they rejected stuff too.  May I post the rejected stuff to get feedback on how to make it right?  I don't know the policy on "old" poems.
> 
> Back to forms.  It's like creating a verbal snowflake.  There's nothing wrong with verbal cupcakes but dayum, I sometimes get the yen to put lots of effort into finding words and ordering them to create a formal work. I especially like villanelle and acrostic sonnet (you'd be *amazed* at how many words and phrases have fourteen letters).
> 
> I don't want to convert anyone.  For me, it's constrained, not forced and if it's forced for you, maybe it's not the right path for you to follow.



Hi astroannie,

The Bard's Bistro is for discussion of the monthly Poetry Challenge - to say which poems you especially like, or talk about the theme. I think you might be looking for the 'Poetic Discussion' sub-forum: Poetic Discussion


----------



## j.w.olson

I believe this should go in the challenge thread -- and not be re-edited.


----------



## Baron

j.w.olson said:


> I believe this should go in the challenge thread -- and not be re-edited.



The time stamp on the edit shows that it was done within minutes of the original post to solve format problems so I'll allow this one.

http://www.writingforums.com/poetry...rize-poetry-challenge-sports.html#post1463794


----------



## feralpen

Baron said:


> The time stamp on the edit shows that it was done within minutes of the original post to solve format problems so I'll allow this one.
> 
> http://www.writingforums.com/poetry...rize-poetry-challenge-sports.html#post1463794




WOOPS... my bad. I read the guidelines before posting in last months challenge. I do understand them and agree with them. Baron, I do thank you for your consideration, but I will not have one ounce of ill feeling if anyone would like the entry pulled. 

When I formatted and posted with quick reply, (and this has happened on other forums, not JUST WF) the poem was posted as one long unbroken sentence, no line breaks. I hit edit and used advanced without thinking. My entry was then posted correctly. I completely forgot about the rule on editing. 

Again, apologies and the poem may be removed with my blessing. 

fp


----------



## Baron

feralpen said:


> WOOPS... my bad. I read the guidelines before posting in last months challenge. I do understand them and agree with them. Baron, I do thank you for your consideration, but I will not have one ounce of ill feeling if anyone would like the entry pulled.
> 
> When I formatted and posted with quick reply, (and this has happened on other forums, not JUST WF) the poem was posted as one long unbroken sentence, no line breaks. I hit edit and used advanced without thinking. My entry was then posted correctly. I completely forgot about the rule on editing.
> 
> Again, apologies and the poem may be removed with my blessing.
> 
> fp



On this occasion, given the circumstances, I have no problem with the poem staying.  Had you come back a couple of hours later and made edits to the work it would be another story.


----------



## Prof

I agree, feralpen's edit is OK.  

Sadly, for me, I didn't notice that I had missed the errors in my title until this morning.  (Unless editing a title is allowed:})


----------



## Baron

Prof said:


> I agree, feralpen's edit is OK.
> 
> Sadly, for me, I didn't notice that I had missed the errors in my title until this morning.  (Unless editing a title is allowed:})



The title has been corrected but I suggest that all bear in mind that if they were sending entries off to major competitions they would not have the opportunity to make any changes once submitted.  It's to everyone's advantage to get into practice on this.  Make sure your work is correct, take it to the advanced editor to double check it, and don't hit the submit button until you're happy that it's okay.

With this explained there will be no more acceptance of edited posts.


----------



## candid petunia

Just curious. Is there a specific reason why members are asked to vote for three poems? Would it make a difference if we were to vote for one each, and not three?


----------



## Baron

candid petunia said:


> Just curious. Is there a specific reason why members are asked to vote for three poems? Would it make a difference if we were to vote for one each, and not three?



When the challenges were set up again it was decided that aggregate scoring was fairest to all entrants


----------



## Cran

It makes a difference, although it's difficult to show that without running both forms and seeing the result. 
A poll is essentially a survey, and here its a survey with a very small test population. Having three votes per poller triples the test population, and goes some way to offsetting personality bias and other variables which can skew the count.

Also, there are times when "the most appealing", "the best presented", and "the most deserving" are not the same entry, and yet each criterion is valid.


----------



## bazz cargo

Hi all,
I, am a poetry virgin, but I fancy a go. 
Yet for all the information out there,
there are still things I'd like to know.

is this voting thing done by likes?
And is it done during the show?
And does it have to rhyme?
I really would like to know. 		 			 				:scratch:

Pardon my laziness, but I was losing the will to live trying to trawl through the length of this thread, so unless someone could paste me link to the 'how to' bit, I would appreciate a quick tip or two.


----------



## candid petunia

Here's the link to the guidelines:
http://www.writingforums.com/poetry-challenges/115687-wf-poetry-challenges.html


----------



## Cran

bazz cargo said:


> Hi all,
> I, am a poetry virgin, but I fancy a go.
> Yet for all the information out there,
> there are still things I'd like to know.
> 
> is this voting thing done by likes?
> And is it done during the show?
> And does it have to rhyme?
> I really would like to know.                                       :scratch:
> 
> Pardon my laziness, but I was losing the will to live trying to trawl through the length of this thread, so unless someone could paste me link to the 'how to' bit, I would appreciate a quick tip or two.



No, the votes don't have to rhyme.
And you can vote for poems without liking them.

You might want to start with this short thread:
http://www.writingforums.com/poetry-challenges/115687-wf-poetry-challenges.html

A look at the Poetry Challenge Index:
Poetry Challenges
will show you that the challenges run in 3-thread cycles: announcement, explanation and opening of the challenge thread, where entries (only!) can be posted; the voting thread, where votes are cast and any vote- or entry-related comments can be posted (eg, why _such and such_, _thingamajig_, and _the other one_ deserved your votes); and the winner thread, where you can add your congratulations. 

Any discussion about the challenges in general, updates of themes, or discussions of the hows and whys of the entry process, the voting process, etc, are mostly found here in _the Bard's Bistro.

Announcements relating to new challenges are also often posted in Site News and Announcements at the top of the main forum index.
_


----------



## bazz cargo

Thank you for your help.:joyous:


----------



## bazz cargo

Okay, what happens next?


----------



## Cran

bazz cargo said:


> Okay, what happens next?



If the process hasn't changed, Martin (who won the last challenge - "healing") will choose the theme for the next challenge. One of the organisers will then begin the new challenge thread, which will include information about the theme and the closing deadline for entries.


----------



## Baron

If Martin doesn't get back to me soon then I'll be asking the runner-up to choose the next theme.

The next challenge will be a prize challenge.


----------



## bazz cargo

Is there a certificate? I wouldn't mind being certified.


----------



## bazz cargo

If I understand it correctly, you do not have to participate in the challenge to vote, just be a member of the forum. This being so, why are you hiding away in this corner? This stuff is good enough to warrant a bit of advertising. Would anyone object if I made a fuss over in the LM coffee shop?


----------



## bazz cargo

I was thinking of writing a short and perhaps not entirely factual story on the history of poetry in the hopes of kicking off a discussion. Only where would be the best place to post such a thing?


----------



## candid petunia

Haha you're bent on reviving this thing, aren't you? I admit the Bard's Bistro is not used as frequently as the LM Coffee Shop. 

For poetry discussion, you can post threads here.


----------



## bazz cargo

Ta.
Is it possible poets are too busy being all pretentious to talk to each other?


----------



## Baron

bazz cargo said:


> Ta.
> Is it possible poets are too busy being all pretentious to talk to each other?


Only the ones who don't write particularly good poetry but like to be thought of as "poets".


----------



## bazz cargo

> Only the ones who don't write particularly good poetry but like to be thought of as "poets".


Aha, are we talking Vogons here?

And what does one use to judge the worth of poets work by?

And what is poetry? And who says so? And why do they get the say so? And when does an opinion become prejudice? Is poetry a valid form of art? Or entertainment? Or all things to all people? Is it a broad church? Or a secular movement? Is it a poem because someone says so? Or must it have some esoteric iambic DNA? Maybe a limerick could sneak under the wire, could a greeting card couplet? Must we all be subject to a sliding scale? Or will the salmon's leap be a make it or not?

Who decides, who decides?


----------



## candid petunia

Baron said:


> Only the ones who don't write particularly good poetry but like to be thought of as "poets".


You know whenever you say that, I have to give my poems a look (just in case). :topsy_turvy:


----------



## Cran

bazz cargo said:


> And what is poetry?



*Poetry is in the ear of the beer-holder.*

_And where in the UK is _Wilthire_?_


----------



## Baron

Cran said:


> *Poetry is in the ear of the beer-holder.*
> 
> _And where in the UK is _Wilthire_?_


Holding up Stonehenge.


----------



## Cran

I thought that was Wilt_shire_?


----------



## bazz cargo

Okay! Yes it started out as a miss-print, but I liked it so much I've kept it. It goes well with the made-up place names I use in my stories. The nice thing about virtual life is it can be whatever I want it to be. 

Is it a mask to hide, or reveal the real me?


----------



## bazz cargo

Due to being overcome by a bad case of PC, I have been reduced to wishing everyone a very merry Brussels Sproutmass, and a new year to savour forever. Now where is my E mistletoe. Pucker up girls...


----------



## Martin

Wonderful poem by IanMGSmith in the Christmas/New year challenge. Really enjoyed it...


----------



## bazz cargo

(And all the rest). hm,hmm. 

Twas a few nights past Christmas,
and the poems were flowing.
Some were scurrilous, 
In some it was snowing.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!
_Sponsored by The Mince Pie Almanac.   

_


----------



## IanMGSmith

Hey thanks Martin, most encouraging and v.much appreciated from a skilled wordsmith such as yourself.

Particularily love your imagery in streetlights and shadows and must agree with Bazz, some pretty awesome entries there.

Unfortunately don't get on here enough due to working pretty long hours and even this holiday there's been major D.I.Y. Oh well. 

Take care, Ian


----------



## j.w.olson

I hope it's fine that my submission to the "god(s)" contest is an image -- I tried a few times, but there was no way that that formatting was going to hold on our message boards.

Awesome entries so far, this is going to be a good one.


----------



## Gumby

I don't see a problem with it j.w., I'm not usually a fan of a shaped poem, but liked this one.  Cats are such superior creatures, at least in their own minds.


----------



## j.w.olson

I'm not usually a fan of them either -- too gimmicky in general. However, it really just felt right to me this time. Thanks!


----------



## Potty

*wince* Don't laff at mine, I just wanted to give it a go, keep my hand in so to speak. I don't really know how to poem! 

Anyway I enjoyed writing it so I've already won.... *hurk*


----------



## lcg

My first submission in "Possessed" section...  

It mite not be the best but it is my first attempt!!!


----------



## Baron

The new challenge has just gone up and there's already a submission.  That's always good to see.


----------



## DouglasMB

I wrote mine in all of 5 min I did not have time to really edit it much or do much with it... but i wanted to at least give it a shot to be more a part of the community here.


----------



## LoneWolf

Just submitted an entry to the Challenge, my first poem in years. I have an intense desire to delete it. But now that I've written this I know I can't. And I won't! I think...


----------



## toddm

no takers on the new challenge yet - maybe folks are busy
---todd


----------



## Baron

I'll kick it off.


----------



## LaughinJim

This is my first time here at this lovely Bistro. I love that painting on the wall. I wish those beards would come back; I kind of like them. Is there a menu?

I'm posting an entry if you don't mind.


----------



## Olly Buckle

You will only see beards on the old timers like me nowadays, it is the berets and capes I really miss though. Of course one wears a hat fairly frequently, a panama or fedora seems to be favourite nowadays, but they do blow off, and one can't chase at my age. nothing like a beret and cape for coping with English weather in style.


----------



## LaughinJim

The fedora has made a comeback here as well, much to my amusement. I am waiting for pleated trousers fastened well above the navel. P. T. Barnum would insist on polka dots for those. I do have a beard similar to yours, Olly, but I color out the gray as I am quite vain (as all monkeys who have mastered the skill of typing are) and I am searching for an affordable and suitably bizarre bit of haberdashery. It took me ages to find a tailor skilled enough to make a ruff for my neck, it looks absurd but does deter Vampires.


----------



## TheBelindaAngel

Excuse my ignorance but what is a sticky? What are the rules for the poetry competition?
Many thanks.


----------



## Sam

Stickies are posts found at the very top of forums. They usually contain rules, guidelines, and that sort of thing. It's called a 'sticky' because it stays on top of the forum, whereas other posts move down the list as new ones take their place. 

The rules can be found here: http://www.writingforums.com/poetry-challenges/115687-wf-poetry-challenges.html


----------



## Olly Buckle

TheBelindaAngel said:


> Excuse my ignorance but what is a sticky? What are the rules for the poetry competition?
> Many thanks.


I see Sam has given the proper answer, but I would like to say that there is no need to seek us to excuse the relief of ignorance, ultimately that is what most of us are here for in one degree or another, and the know-alls are not usually the favourites.

Regarding those rules, the one people have the most trouble with is the one about not editing after you have posted, it seems harsh but in the long run it is good preparation, there is no going back once something is published, so read it through at least a couple of times more than you feel you need to. Good luck, Olly.


----------



## TheBelindaAngel

Thank you Sam and Olly.


----------



## Baron

It's been necessary to remove one poem from the challenge because it was edited after posting.  Please observe the challenge rule on this:




> *Please make sure that your work is properly formatted before pressing the submit button. Work edited after posting may be excluded from the challenge. *


*


*


----------



## HKayG

Well there's my entry. I am so scared! Either way I am glad to be a part of it.


----------



## Jeko

Decided to give this a try...


----------



## HKayG

Are we allowed to post the poems that we have entered for the monthly in the poetry thread? I don't want to breach any rules!


----------



## Baron

Not until the voting is finished.


----------



## HKayG

No Problem, glad i didn't post it there now! Good luck to everyone this month! How long is the voting open for?


----------



## candid petunia

There's always two weeks to submit poems and 10 days for voting.


----------



## HKayG

Lovely, thank you!


----------



## Baron

So who is going to be first to put their feet in the water?  There's a new challenge.


----------



## Cran

Going to be tough one for the voters, methinks.


----------



## toddm

I've thrown my hat into the ring, who's next?


----------



## Wessik

I have entered the fray. Good luck, everyone!


----------



## Vitaly Ana

Gotta be in it to win it! irate:

I am enjoying reading everyone's poetry. I wrote a piece about the road to Macchu Pichu


----------



## Don V Standeford

I'm glad to see we've got a forum to post and talk about poetry here.


----------



## toddm

Some excellent submissions so far in the latest poetry challenge -


----------



## Cran

Isn't that always the way? I just posted a little something in "Reminiscing", 
and only then remembered I already had a lyric that would have fitted the theme. 

Oh well, maybe I'll post it in Lyrics instead.


----------



## Ariel

I'm trying my hand at this one.  I liked trying to come up with something for it.  Couldn't go for old poems here--they were l destroyed in the great motherboard death of '09.


----------



## bazz cargo

You wouldn't believe the time it took to find this place. Everything has been moved around and my seat in the corner is now occupied by some drunken geezer with so many medals he can't stand up. So, what's happening? Can I muscle in on the next challenge? Where is the bar person?


----------



## toddm

sure, just don't bring any puppets - they are apparently frowned upon


----------



## candid petunia




----------



## toddm

^ oh no, they're back!


----------



## Ariel

Candid, I just about choked on my water laughing when I saw those last night.  I wasn't supposed to be on the forums then and got yelled at by the Fella.  

(We were playing D&D).


----------



## PiP

Nice one Candid  Perhaps a poem or two about the masks people wear or about puppets and who's pulling the strings may be in order...I think I will put my "Pam Ayres" head on and get writing...


----------



## toddm

amsawtell said:


> (We were playing D&D).



There's plenty of fodder for another thread there, but I instantly thought you must be one cool lady to play that with your 'fella' : )


----------



## Ariel

I also DM.  

I'm an all-around nerd.


----------



## toddm

ha! DM'ing is an art in itself, you have to be a natural storyteller to do it well I think

I've been in denial most of my life, but I know now that most of what I really love are pretty nerdy things - now I'm in a bit of a mid-life crisis over not owning up to it when I was a teen and had spare time to burn : )


----------



## Ariel

It's made my writing better.  I'm better able to develop characters and stories from playing and DMing.


----------



## bazz cargo

? DMing? I've only just got the hang of LOL


----------



## Cran

bazz cargo said:


> ? DMing? I've only just got the hang of LOL


DM=Dungeon Master, or Mistress (if so inclined) - world-maker, or more simply: god.


----------



## toddm

^ DMs basically write a fantasy novel on the fly, with the characters (players) acting and interacting in real-time, with some random elements thrown-in (dice-rolls) - a wonderful skill to have, I wish I could do it well


----------



## Cran

D&D (Dungeons and Dragons) was the most successful of a stable of fantasy-based role playing games (RPGs) which began long before the internet. That meant that all of the players had to be in the same room for most of the same time to play. Sessions would run for hours, sometimes days at a time; games could run for years. Records were kept on pieces of paper and/or index cards, and dedicated players always carried their set of dice: d20s (3)*, d12, d8, d6 (3), and d4.#

_*Some were lucky enough to pick up a pair of d10s to use as percentiles (sometimes misleadingly referred to as d100). _Real_ D&D players - or D&Ders - accumulated multiple dice sets. _

_#d= *die*, the singular of dice, but also commonly the battle cry of the day; the number = the number of sides on the die, from which could be determined the shape of the regular polyhedron: 20 = icosahedron; 12 = dodecadedron; 8 = octahedron; 6 = cube; 4 = tetrahedron._

Many, so many, swords and sorcery stories grew out of D&D-created worlds and characters. The proof of its popularity could be found in designated D&D novels and movie.**

_**I don't count the sequel; that was a disaster. _


----------



## toddm

^ D&D fed a craving left by those who read Tolkien's books in the 70s and wanted more. Although Gary Gygax (the originator of D&D) played down the influence later (largely due to copyright issues) the earliest versions of D&D were very Tolkien-based, with hobbits (later called halflings), ents, orcs, rangers etc.

In fact the entire modern fantasy/sword-and-sorcery genre (books, games, movies) are mostly rehashes of Tolkien, they can't seem to get out from under his shadow - some are more successful at following in his footsteps than others, but none have ever risen to his genius - many of them are great fun though, such as D&D.

Tolkien is an author who is very dear to my heart, ever since childhood - he's one person I'd truly love to hang out with in a pub over a pint - not sure if he would have played D&D though, but he just might have enjoyed it : )


----------



## Cran

That's true enough: the early versions of D&D were lifted straight out of Tolkien's Middle Earth, with minor influences from Burroughs and various Arthurian tales; because clerics were scarce in Middle Earth.


----------



## Ariel

D&D also owes a great deal to tabletop wargames.  It is from civilian tabletop wargames  that a lot of the battle rules, movement rules, and the visual representation (minitures on a map or terrain) of D&D grew. 

I have about seven sets of dice plus miscellaneous dice--including a d30, a d24 (for random hours of a day), an emoticon d6, and a percentile die in which the smaller number is within the larger.  I have seen a d100--they look like golf balls.  I'm always happy to get dice.


----------



## bazz cargo

Ah ha. Sounds like something I would have tried if I hadn't spent all my time with my head down a toilet being flushed by a big kid with a personality disorder. 

I can remember looking through a window of a War-Hammer shop in Bath. Very alluring.


----------



## bazz cargo

Looking over the quality of the poetry on display, I can see why someone would be tempted to cheat. How the hell they would expect to get away with it is beyond me.


----------



## Ariel

Insecurity in their own abilities is my guess as to why.  How?  I have no idea.

(In my current D & D group one of the other players feels like he has to _always_ succeed.  He refuses to roll on the table and is constantly rolling incredibly high numbers.  Worse is that instead of mentioning each number he rolls he just says "the lowest number is . . ."

He does it because he feels insecure.  He wants not just to be a good player but to be the best.  It has put a lot of tension on the rest of the group--especially when other players are rolling poorly--because he also likes to brag about his rolls.  Everyone knows he's cheating and other than calling him on it there's nothing we can do to stop it.)


----------



## bazz cargo

How old is this guy?


----------



## Ariel

I think he's 34.  He's my best friend's husband.


----------



## bazz cargo

Is your best friends man picker broken? 

Family and friend politics is way beyond my pay rate. You may have to resort to hiring a hit person.


----------



## Ariel

Yeah, I think her picker is broken.  He was out of work for three years and he won't hold down a job.  He acts like he's too good for a starting position but doesn't have the experience for anything else.  He gets an attitude and quits jobs after a few weeks.  I want to like him because otherwise he's not a horrible guy but it's really hard.


----------



## bazz cargo

Sounds like a lot of people I know. Most of the 'Life Wrecks.' I know seem to be of a similar sort. Too cool for school, worth more for work, too smart to lose, rules are for losers.

At least you have your writer's perspective which will save you from getting caught in the crossfire when it all goes badly wrong.


----------



## Ariel

That and he knows I'll fall to her side if it really comes down to it.  Her younger brother was my brother's best friend when he died, her father was the responding officer to the fire my brother died in and she's always been there for me.  If I didn't have the Fella I'd marry her.


----------



## alanmt

amsawtell said:


> (In my current D & D group one of the other players feels like he has to _always_ succeed. He refuses to roll on the table and is constantly rolling incredibly high numbers. Worse is that instead of mentioning each number he rolls he just says "the lowest number is . . ."
> 
> He does it because he feels insecure. He wants not just to be a good player but to be the best. It has put a lot of tension on the rest of the group--especially when other players are rolling poorly--because he also likes to brag about his rolls. Everyone knows he's cheating and other than calling him on it there's nothing we can do to stop it.)



I have a guy who used to be like that. A couple of times I pointed out how lucky he was, mathematically speaking - since cheaters don't get it - and told him that the three good roles he got in a row only occurs once in 10,000 times. When that didn't seem to slow him up, I balanced it out by, every time he beat the odds, adjusting my DM dice rolls (behind my DM screen) to match. He was pretty shocked how, after his second or third crit in battle in a row, his opponents always seemed to roll devastating crits which took him right out of the battle. After just a couple sessions of that - because he would be knocked out of every battle early and lost a lot of the fun being unconscious and was no longer the artificial "hero" of every battle - he calmed down and his "really good" dice rolls slowed down to just slightly more often than other players'.


----------



## Ariel

I'm playing in this campaign so I don't get that luxury but we're both playing fighters.  Mine has been planned out to level 20 since we started (makes leveling so easy) and when we were comparing ideas for characters I found, to my disgust, that he had decided to utilize a lot of the feats I'd chosen.  My character is built for speed and I utilize charisma as well (odd fighter, I know).  His is supposed to be more of a tank but when he started out with two 18s, two 17s, a 16, and a 14 he's a little over-powered, right?  And these were _rolled_ stats?


----------



## Cran

Although the odds are against it, it can happen. My longest-running (although not highest level) character started out with embarrassingly high stats rolls; more so since the DM used the percentile modifiers for 18s. There was no possibility of cheating, because we had to make all rolls in the open where the DM (who called and recorded the numbers) and everyone else can see them if they cared to look. My game play rolls tended to fit the standard bell curve, but I was something of a freak when it came to character stats rolls, so I was often asked to proxy roll for others who were starting new characters.


----------



## Ariel

His rolls were hidden from everyone.  He tried to pull the same thing in the campaign I ran before this one and I made him re-roll all stats.  He's so bad that I've set up a point-buy system that is extremely under-powered for the restart of my campaign.


----------



## Olly Buckle

I have been following this for a while, still got very little idea of what you are all talking about.


----------



## Ariel

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread with Dungeons & Dragons talk.


----------



## candid petunia

I'm moved posts related to this month's challenge to the voting thread.


----------



## Olly Buckle

No prob. just that I was truly mystified, I am 68 so I'm really the last pre-computer generation, the first I saw was probably a Sinclair zx they came out when I was about 28 or 29 and you could play table tennis and space invaders on them; I was meeting exotic women and listening to rock and roll.


----------



## Ariel

I play tabletop which means that except for some files and such there's no computer involved in my D&D.


----------



## Gumby

amsawtell said:


> Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread with Dungeons & Dragons talk.



It's easy to do, ams. We all discuss a little off topic now and then.  As long as we don't let it go on too long and bring it back to topic, we all understand.


----------



## Ariel

I tried and Candid separated it off and stuck it in the current voting thread.


----------



## Kevin

Question:  what do you all think if we were to post anonymously, until _after_ the voting.  I think it would add to the excitement(fun) and perhaps surprize (_ Oh, I recognize this style- It's definitely Chessy- WHAT?! It's Lewdog! Impossible..)_  If not this challenge, maybe the next...


----------



## Travers

That's a great idea!


----------



## Ariel

I like that idea too!


----------



## Lewdog

Cheese is good...if I could figure out how to mix in a little bacon maybe I'd get more votes.


----------



## candid petunia

We (staff) have been thinking about Kevin's idea. We could kick it off at the next challenge and see how it goes.


----------



## writersblock

I like Kevin's idea as well


----------



## Staff Deployment

There's a very famous experiment where interviewers for an orchestra were questioned why there were so few female musicians in their set, so they put blinds up to prevent themselves from seeing the interviewees, judging them solely on what their music sounded like. Suddenly the gender of the orchestra went 50/50.

Not saying that there's any sort of bias like that in the poetry voting, especially because it's communal, but I think it'd be interesting to see the results of putting the metaphorical blinds up.


----------



## gia_allwords

candid petunia said:


> I'm moved posts related to this month's challenge to the voting thread.


Hi,
How do we vote? Sorry, new to this and I've read everything I could find but still not clear  :stupid:
Also, I totally agree, it makes sense to keep it anonymous up until the end: more exciting :icon_bounce: :smurfin:


----------



## Ariel

After all submissions are entered and submitting is closed then a voting thread will be put up.  The voting thread will have a poll at the top.  You have 3 votes, all 3 votes must be used, and you _may not_ vote for yourself.  Other than that, choose the ones you like best.


----------



## candid petunia

I am pleased by the turn-out this month. 

It's late night in my part of the world, I'll have the poll up in the morning.


----------



## gia_allwords

Thank you


----------



## gia_allwords

amsawtell said:


> After all submissions are entered and submitting is closed then a voting thread will be put up.  The voting thread will have a poll at the top.  You have 3 votes, all 3 votes must be used, and you _may not_ vote for yourself.  Other than that, choose the ones you like best.


Thanks!


----------



## candid petunia

So what did you guys think of the blind challenge? Do you want to go back to normal posting, or did you like the blind one better?


----------



## Lewdog

candid petunia said:


> So what did you guys think of the blind challenge? Do you want to go back to normal posting, or did you like the blind one better?



I liked the blind challenge because I thought it was fun trying to pick who wrote what poems.  I think in the end, the best poem wins, because of it's quality, with less influences whether intentional or not.


----------



## Ariel

I always vote for the ones I think are best.  Sometimes three just aren't enough votes to go around and I have to let one I really loved go.

Loving the blind challenge.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Thanks so much, Lew and Ams.

Has no one else a burning desire to share their feelings regarding the blind challenge? We'd really appreciate your input and the more voices, the merrier.


----------



## Gargh

It's fun... and I'm definitely looking forward to finding out who wrote what! It's also nice to see such a good turn out and if that's due to the blind element giving people more confidence to enter then that's another vote in its favour


----------



## lcg

I have participated in both the challenges, and I think I'm more comfortable in submitting to the blind challenge. It saves from being wary of Big Names.


----------



## apple

I really like the blind challenge. Let's do it again.


----------



## PiP

I also liked the blind challenge. Will it continue in this format for July?


----------



## candid petunia

Yes, I think we'll continue the blind submissions as it has proved to be favourable in more ways than one.


----------



## PiP

Excellent!


----------



## Ariel

I still don't quite understand the "big names" thing.  However, I do like the blind challenges.


----------



## candid petunia

Oh the "big names" were intimidating for me too when I was new here. Especially when the Baron used to post.
I suppose I gained confidence as time passed.


----------



## Taknovrthewrld

Pertaining to the July Challenge, has anyone been working on an entry? Do submissions usually go in closer to the deadline?

*spoilers removed*


----------



## Lewdog

Taknovrthewrld said:


> Pertaining to the July Challenge, has anyone been working on an entry? Do submissions usually go in closer to the deadline?



Entries are supposed to be anonymous.  :-$


----------



## candid petunia

We're waiting for more entries, guys. 
I'd hate to see this one lose it's pace after a wonderful blind challenge.


----------



## Travers

Workin' on it CP, workin' on it.


----------



## Taknovrthewrld

Ah, my mistake. I'm anxious about the challenge. I'll check back in a week.


----------



## Lewdog

A long time ago I entered a poetry contest.  Unfortunately I didn't win but my poem was chosen to be published in a book containing the best poems in the contest.  I had actually forgotten all about it until recently.  Does anyone have an idea of how I could find it listed somewhere?  The name of the poem was "Existence," and I can still remember the poem word for word.


----------



## Staff Deployment

. . . Google works pretty well. "Existence" won't get you far but if you put an excerpt in between "quotes" you might be able to find the anthology listed on Amazon or another bookstore site.


----------



## Lewdog

Google.com seems to work much better than its little misunderstood brother Goggle.com.  Yes I can't tell you how many times I have typed in the wrong address.  :cower:

Well, I tried and no luck.  Does anyone know of an annual poetry contest that does something similar to the one I brought up?  Maybe they have a website I can check out.


----------



## BreakingMyself

Can I post a poem in the monthly challenge, even if it's terrible and makes a mockery of itself? I don't want to turn the challenge into open season on parody, but my idea might just do that.


----------



## PiP

Hi BreakingMyself, yes enter. Providing your poem follows the theme of "Sunset", go for it!

PiP


----------



## BreakingMyself

Thanks PiP! 

I've posted it, don't say I didn't warn you.


----------



## escorial

Lewdog will you be posting the poem on here?


----------



## Lewdog

I posted a version of it a long time ago, if you do a forum search for Existence you can find it.  It wasn't that great, but it got published.  Then again the contest was probably a scam just to sell books, who knows.


----------



## PiP

BreakingMyself said:


> Thanks PiP!
> 
> I've posted it, don't say I didn't warn you.



Wasn't quite what I expected


----------



## BreakingMyself

pigletinportugal said:


> Wasn't quite what I expected



I'll take that as a positive and naturally expect your vote.


----------



## Lewdog

BreakingMyself said:


> I'll take that as a positive and naturally expect your vote.



Let me give you a little advice on writing a poem that is a mockery, since I'm very good at it, you don't actually put in the poem that it is rubbish.


----------



## BreakingMyself

Lewdog said:


> Let me give you a little advice on writing a poem that is a mockery, since I'm very good at it, you don't actually put in the poem that it is rubbish.



Ill remember that thanks Lewdog. Although it was meant as a play on words irate:


----------



## Lewdog

Wow, there are so many different styles and representations of sunset in the poetry contest!  This competition is going to be absolutely difficult.


----------



## Gargh

Lewdog said:


> Wow, there are so many different styles and representations of sunset in the poetry contest!  This competition is going to be absolutely difficult.



Spanking turn-out eh? I agree, there's a lot to like out there - it's been a really good prompt!


----------



## Chesters Daughter

September challenge has been extended:

http://www.writingforums.com/thread...essions-quot?p=1668110&viewfull=1#post1668110


----------



## Chesters Daughter

It would seem we have some trust issues. With only two days remaining, I trust there will be a rapid influx of entries posted in this month's challenge. Dust something off or write something new and join the two beloved souls who have graciously shared their efforts with us. Clock's ticking, me lovelies.


----------



## toddm

fewer entries, fewer voters, this time around - folks must be busy


----------



## Alabastrine

Does November's prompt have to be a poem?


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Yes, dear, but you may utilize any form you desire, including prose poetry.


----------



## escorial

Apt choice today the 1st December


----------



## Fin

Hello ladies and gentlemen. 

Click *here* for January's competition.
Click *here* for the workshop thread.


----------



## aj47

Okay, I'm a cretin.  I do not "get" the workshop idea, though I'm sure it's something I should know about and understand.  Who can explain it to me in little words?


----------



## Gumby

The Workshops are not visible to search engines so they protect your first rights if you plan on seeking publication. They are also not visible to the public, only to members.


----------



## aj47

OOOOOOOOO

That sounds delightful!   So if I post something there, it's like it's only only only visible to site members and not anyone else?   

I could be liking this majorly.


----------



## Fin

astroannie said:


> That sounds delightful!   So if I post something there, it's like it's only only only visible to site members and not anyone else?




Correct!


----------



## Olly Buckle

Not including the 'bots' gives the 'views' figure a bit more meaning as well.


----------



## bazz cargo

Does this Bistro do cheese sandwiches?


----------



## Olly Buckle

bazz cargo said:


> Does this Bistro do cheese sandwiches?


In a bistro? You pleb. You might get a feta, halloumi, and rocket pannini with sun dried tomatoes.


----------



## bazz cargo

Bloody middle class pretentious sandwiches. 

If anyone wants to hide their work from the world until they are paid, don't forget to add a link to the challenge thread. Thanks to Fin for reminding me, and I pass on his words of wisdom.

On an odder note, if anyone here is sad enough to watch Eastenders, by now there should be no cars worth less than half a million, no poor people except for cleaners, and the Queen Vic should be a Sushi and Bagel bar. Tele eh! Can't believe a word they say.


----------



## Kevin

I think it would be really cool if, on the 'poll' page you could click/link on and read the poems in the voting line-up(the left column) as you vote(or peruse), instead of having to go to a different page, then come back.


----------



## bazz cargo

Hi Kev,  I just add a new tab and switch between cos I'm lazy.


----------



## Fin

The voting thread will be up within 24 hours


----------



## A_Jones

I am confused about the challenges.  This april space challenge.  Is it poetry.  prose?   How long?


----------



## PiP

A_Jones said:


> I am confused about the challenges.  This april space challenge.  Is it poetry.  prose?   How long?



Poetry, AJ


----------



## kilroy214

I know I'm new here and all, so this might have been asked before, but I can't help but wonder: How come all the entries in the contest aren't all anonymous?  I just think the voting would be more fair and less biased if the author's names were withheld until the winner was announced.


----------



## Gargh

It's a question that's come up before and hopefully once you've been here a while you'll agree that the most resounding reason to not worry about it is that folks just aren't like that round here: it's all about the art first . 

Plus lots of anonymous entries increases the load for our hard-working volunteer mods .


----------



## kilroy214

Gargh said:


> It's a question that's come up before and hopefully once you've been here a while you'll agree that the most resounding reason to not worry about it is that folks just aren't like that round here: it's all about the art first . Plus lots of anonymous entries increases the load for our hard-working volunteer mods .


Ah, I see. Thank you, Gargh.


----------



## Cran

kilroy214 said:


> I know I'm new here and all, so this might have been asked before, but I can't help but wonder: How come all the entries in the contest aren't all anonymous?  I just think the voting would be more fair and less biased if the author's names were withheld until the winner was announced.


Welcome to the semi-democratic process of Poetry Challenge adjudication. Over the years, many forms of voting and judging have been trialled, including a period of fully anonymous submissions, which then moved to optional anonymous submissions (which I believe is where things are at this time). You can follow the on-board discussion of this period from this post - *The Bards Bistro post #437*


----------



## Gumby

Anonymity is optional in the Poetry Challenge, as Cran said. If you look at the winners over the last six months or so, you will see that it is a wide variety of members and not the same people over and over. Which just goes to show how fair and honest our members are in their voting. However, if people want anonymous we are open to that.


----------



## belthagor

This is a really newbie question but what is "FoWF" (I am entering the poetry challenge soon)


----------



## PiP

belthagor said:


> This is a really newbie question but what is "FoWF" (I am entering the poetry challenge soon)



FoWF members are paying subscribers who support WF with the costs of hosting and promoting WritingForums.com by becoming a Friend of WF.

You don't need to be a FoWF to enter the poetry challenge.


----------



## Cran

PiP said:


> FoWF members are paying subscribers who support WF with the costs of hosting and promoting WritingForums.com by becoming a Friend of WF.
> 
> You don't need to be a FoWF to enter the poetry challenge.


Just hosting and maintaining, which we now have to pay for; any costs arising from promoting the forum are not borne by subscribers.


----------



## belthagor

did you guys read Greimour's poem in the poetry challenge thread? I really liked it


----------



## TheFuhrer02

So the current challenge prompt is "5 Lines". I know there is a clause in the challenge which says it is subject to my own interpretation but, with three entries already all having just five lines, I just want to confirm: Am I allowed to write a piece having more than five lines? Just checking.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Hello love! Wonderful to see you posting. As long your interpretation somehow ties into the prompt, how you go about it is entirely up to you. Now get cracking, kiddo, you've denied us far too long.:wink:


----------



## toddm

I think it would be fine myself, as long as it somehow tied in with the theme. I tried -briefly- to think of some piece based on some manifestation of 'five lines` but all I came up with was about cocaine overdose and I didn't want to go there...


----------



## TheFuhrer02

Chester's Daughter said:


> Hello love! Wonderful to see you posting. As long your interpretation somehow ties into the prompt, how you go about it is entirely up to you. Now get cracking, kiddo, you've denied us far too long.:wink:



Thanks for the quick response! And don't worry, I'll try posting an entry soon! :thumbl:



toddm said:


> I think it would be fine myself, as long as it somehow tied in with the theme. I tried -briefly- to think of some piece based on some manifestation of 'five lines` but all I came up with was about cocaine overdose and I didn't want to go there...



Judging from your previous pieces which I've read, I would've loved to see that piece finished. Then again, I respect your decision.


----------



## toddm

TheFuhrer02 said:


> Judging from your previous pieces which I've read, I would've loved to see that piece finished. Then again, I respect your decision.



thanks - having zero experience, either first- or second-hand with that, it would be hard to write meaningfully about it - besides it probably would have just come out with birds and trees and wistful autumn winds like much of my stuff anyway lol (poking fun of myself here!) - take care!
---todd


----------



## aj47

My first thought about five lines was a call center.  But that's something I've only experienced from the other end.


----------



## Firemajic

*My Faux Pas*

:icon_colors: I apologize for clicking the "like" button in the poetry challenge. I really did not see that request to NOT do that,  Sorry.  Thanks Lisa for putting it in red! ...Peace...Jul


----------



## Gargh

Spanking turn out this time... great prompt choice from Fats I think, it's really inspired people. I'm going to struggle to choose just three, but I'm really looking forward to it. It feels like an anthology thread, really.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

I echo Gargh. I knew that prompt would result in a fantastic turnout. Thank you, Fats, for the inspiration. And a hearty much obliged to all of our stellar entrants, ya did good kids. There's a little less than three hours left before I close the thread. Hope everyone can endure the aneurysms that will accompany having to choose a mere three from so many great options once voting commences. Best of luck to everyone!


----------



## Mutimir

This was a great prompt choice. I had fun with it even though I was a bit skeptical at first. Love the turn out. Keep at it people.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Whoa! Way to go my fellow poets! Five entries in a little over twelve hours, that's gotta be a first. I told Jul her selection was a jewel and was sure to get a great turnout. Post on dear poets, I'd love to use up all of the allowable space in the voting poll.


----------



## Gargh

So, is there a record for number of entrants in any one challenge? & how many do we need before we break the poll? :devilish:


----------



## Chesters Daughter

It's in the high twenties, love. I'll go digging on the morrow and get an exact. The poll has a maximum of 50 choices. I've always wondered what I would do if we have 51.


----------



## qwertyportne

Would like to post an entry for the current challenge but not sure how to post a link to it in the main thread. Not really concerned about my rights to any poem, but the phrase "Failure to do so..." makes me think I should post my entry in the challenge, then link to it. Can someone tell me how to do this properly? Thanks!


----------



## Gargh

Make your post in the secure challenge thread. The URL for that post can be generated by clicking on the number of the post in the top right hand corner e.g. for your one above, I would click on #522, generating the URL http://www.writingforums.com/threads/89754-The-Bards-Bistro/page21?p=1792188&viewfull=1#post1792188 in my address bar. Copy and paste your URL from your address bar, like any other link, and then make a post containing that link in the open challenge thread.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Much appreciated, Gargh.


----------



## qwertyportne

Gosh, if it had been a snake it would have bit me! I'm always looking at the bottom of posts. Thank you very much, Gargh.


----------



## Cran

Chester's Daughter said:


> It's in the high twenties, love. I'll go digging on the morrow and get an exact. The poll has a maximum of 50 choices. I've always wondered what I would do if we have 51.



Your best bet would be to split the entries over two polls (26 in one, 25 in the other) and then divide the voting phase into two rounds (a qualifying round; then a run-off round of the top five or so from each of the qualifying polls).


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Many thanks, most kind Admiral. Perhaps one month when our poets are extremely generous with their offerings, I will be able to put your ingenuity to excellent use. In the meantime, I'll salivate while I wait.

After a lovely journey through challenges past, it has been revealed that I am a shameless prevaricator. Unintentionally, of course. The most entrants we've ever had is 24 in the September 2014 "5 Lines" Challenge, with thanks to Fats who chose our road.

For anyone who is up to foraging, there are countless gems to be found in the old challenges. I actually lost myself in the past for almost two hours.


----------



## A_Jones

I have submitted something for the first time.  We will see how things go.


----------



## Gargh

A_Jones said:


> I have submitted something for the first time.  We will see how things go.



And why not! I found it a little unnerving the first time -- all the whats whys and wherefores of a poll vote, and all that -- but it's fun to challenge yourself and write to a prompt. (Though I actually seem to have got worse since I started entering?!)


----------



## Dictarium

Entered my first competition. I have almost no gauge for how good my poetry is so this should be interesting.

e: Oh, Jesus... I forgot to capitalize a very important word... Oh well. :\


----------



## candid petunia

I think I pressed "like" on an entry by mistake. I don't know how that happened, and WF doesn't have the unlike option.


----------



## Gumby

It does happen, cp, it's not the end of the world.


----------



## candid petunia

Yeah, just wanted to let the others know, Gumby.  Or else it would give the impression that the staff itself is breaking the rules.


----------



## Gumby

Lol! True. I just didn't want you to feel as if it was a terrible thing.


----------



## Firemajic

Thank goodness everyone was cool about my abuse of the "like" button, before I read the rules carefully...:nightmare:


----------



## Mutimir

Dang...24 entries so far!!!! Nice prompt choice Firemajic. Kudos.


----------



## Mutimir

Another good prompt choice. Everyone's getting into the Christmas spirit, watch out...


----------



## escorial

*Escorial question*

is this were you can change your stuff...cheers


----------



## Chesters Daughter

escorial said:


> is this were you can change your stuff...cheers



Escorial posted the above question in the secure entry thread in the workshop for this month's challenge. While the workshop is where you go to "work" out your kinks with help of feedback, that does not apply to the Poetry Challenge secure threads which are posted in the workshop to be safe from the prying eyes of search engines. 

Once the ten minute grace period has passed, edits are disallowed for entries posted in both threads, public and secure. The idea behind this restriction is to train all of us to present the best we have in its most finished fashion as we would have to do when submitting work to a publisher. Submitting work that you feel is at its very best is an excellent habit to embrace whether you're looking to be published or are entering your work in an organized competition.

We strongly and respectfully advise all entrants to be as pleased as they can be with their entry because once you hit submit, you're stuck with it. Ugh, please look the other way on that horrid rhyme of mine. Ugh, I did it again.


----------



## Cran

candid petunia said:


> I think I pressed "like" on an entry by mistake. I don't know how that happened, and WF doesn't have the unlike option.



I'll have a dig around and see if I can make that a mod tool for undoing unintended Likes and LoLs.



_ETA: Well, I've done what I can with the settings I could find, but I don't know if it's personal or general (ie, whether you can only reverse your own, or anybody's on request). _


----------



## Mutimir

Haha well I missed this deadline. Apparently I missed GMT, oops. Good luck folks.


----------



## Gargh

You & me both, and I have no excuse, I've nothing to work out! Well I have a lame excuse... I nodded off on the sofa, but frankly there are so many spanking entries in this one, I felt beat before I put pen to paper.


----------



## aj47

My (very) late October (I think it was October) entry is in Poets' Workshop.  I can't take a writing course without it messing with my creative work. I'm sharing it because it's completed.


----------



## John Oberon

You know, I'm just wondering if there's any way we could do weighted voting in the Poetry Challenge (or any of the challenges). We still vote for three poems, but we have six points to assign...so if you like all three of your choices equally, you assign 2 points to each, or if you REALLY like one over the other two, you could assign 4 points to your favorite, and then a point each to the other two. You MUST assign at least one point to a poem. Or maybe we could just make it 3 points for first, 2 points for second, 1 point for third across the board. Is that a good or bad idea, and is it even possible? I just think it would make voting a little more interesting, and more accurately represent the feelings of the voters, and probably go a ways to eliminate ties.


----------



## aj47

Not familiar with this particular forum software, but with forum software in general.  That would probably have to involve either public voting or PMing a specific person to collate the votes.  I like the system we have now--it works well enough because we have many participants in voting.


----------



## qwertyportne

John Oberon said:


> Or maybe we could just make it 3 points for first, 2 points for second, 1 point for third across the board.



If everyone gets three votes, then your "3 points for first, 2 points for second, 1 point for third" is a good idea. However, since only one poem can win, I think we should get one vote and cast it for the poem we think is the winner.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

We missed out on some additional fine efforts last month due to the deadline sneaking up on a few prospective entrants. That said, 


*this challenge will close in a little less than 22 hours.*


----------



## Cran

qwertyportne said:


> If everyone gets three votes, then your "3 points for first, 2 points for second, 1 point for third" is a good idea. However, since only one poem can win, I think we should get one vote and cast it for the poem we think is the winner.


Where do we get the idea that only one poem can win? 

One person-one vote is OK when you have a large enough sampling pool - say, a thousand or more voters - with small samples, it's the most skewed system of all.

One person-three votes is the fairest system in a small sampling pool; it allows for multiple definitions of "most deserving", and nullifies voter bias arising from popularity or favouritism, which is the most common criticism aimed at these polls.

Annie is correct that a points allocation system is beyond the software's capability; it would have to be done manually.


----------



## bazz cargo

Is there any reason why I cannot set up a poetry dual between Am hammy and myself? Although all comers are welcome to join in.


----------



## am_hammy

It actually might be interesting to see, if others do join in to have them alternate between whatever we come up with. So whatever bazz would start with, I would counter, then if someone else joins they would continue the type of flow and direction that bazz had and vice versa. It might be interesting to see if it goes that far. No one might care at all about our dual haha.

Also, I was just thinking (and I could be getting ahead of myself here but I just got really excited) maybe, if there are other people that join, it could be a tag team. So each round consists of different people then by the end of it all, a team can be chosen as a winner. Thoughts to mull over. heehee


----------



## Cran

bazz cargo said:


> Is there any reason why I cannot set up a poetry dual between Am hammy and myself? Although all comers are welcome to join in.


If you mean in this thread, yes. The reason being the bloodstains left behind once the Dark One of Poetry (aka Chester's Daughter) is through with you.

If you mean in Poetry Prompts and Word Games, no, no reason why you can't set up a poetry duel with anyone.


----------



## am_hammy

Concerning the February Challenge: "words" comp. I just wanted to make sure it was okay that I just posted the full link in the main challenge thread. I'm having the hardest time figuring out how to create a link that says my title and you can just click on it and go to my post in the workshop thread for this challenge. I tried looking around the forum and tried various methods in "go advance" for posting but I couldn't find anything.

I must be tired, so I'm sorry it's a long link and if I look like a noob


----------



## TJ1985

Hammy, Type the name you want the link to appear as in the thread and the highlight just the word or words you want to become the hyperlink. In the bar above where you type, there's a button that looks like a world with a chain link, click it. (In the quick reply, it's just to the right of the smiley button) A little box will pop up, and you paste the link you want to use into that box. Then click "Ok". That should do it for you.  It's easier if you've already copied the link so you can paste it right in when the little box pops up. 

I hope this helps.  

TJ.


----------



## am_hammy

Thank you so much! That was driving me absolutely crazy. Now my entry looks better instead of linky mumbo jumbo haha.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Given Cupid's had his way with the whole of humanity for almost a day, a little reminder for the love struck seems appropriate:
*
Our current challenge will close in a little less than 21 hours. *


----------



## escorial

[video=youtube_share;tOSJp2GffA0]http://youtu.be/tOSJp2GffA0[/video]


cracking theme...so looking forward to entries


----------



## Chesters Daughter

It would be a pity if one of us inadvertently missed this month's deadline. Our current challenge *will close in 24 hours*​.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

A reminder for the busy folk:
*
Our current challenge will close in 26 hours.*


----------



## Chesters Daughter

*Important Notice*

*Effective immediately*:

*The inclusion of links of any kind within an entrant's Challenge post is prohibited and shall be promptly removed by staff.


Kindly click *here* for pertinent details.*


----------



## Gargh

Honestly, that's a bit miserable. It means excluding multi-media formats and proper referencing for things like found poetry, and placing the emphasis squarely on one type of creativity. And it's a bit sad that anyone thinks it matters that much; it sucks a bit of the joy out of it all. 

Nothing personal CD: I know these things are a joint responsibility.


----------



## Cran

Gargh said:


> Honestly, that's a bit miserable. It means excluding multi-media formats and proper referencing for things like found poetry, and placing the emphasis squarely on one type of creativity. And it's a bit sad that anyone thinks it matters that much; it sucks a bit of the joy out of it all.
> 
> Nothing personal CD: I know these things are a joint responsibility.


From the top - 

it is a poetry challenge - placing the emphasis on one type of creativity, poetry, is the point. 

it matters because we don't need the major challenges fucked up by solo flyers who think it would be better to do something else like adding videos or musical soundtracks to entries intended to be assessed for the person's own original writing.

found poetry has no place here. at all. if you want to play with someone else's poetry, that's fine, but it doesn't belong in the poetry challenge.

if you want multi-media entries, then start a multi-media challenge in *the multi-media workshop*. If it proves popular and enduring, we'll look at adding it to our major challenges.

if you want to add other media to a poem for feedback, then post it in *the multi-media workshop*. It was created because some people wanted to do what you suggest you want to do.

If that's sad or miserable that a poetry challenge is only about poetry, so be it. It's hard enough to put these challenges together, to keep them fair for entrants; it's not fair to expect one challenge to accommodate everything that pops into someone's head, and it's not fair to our volunteer challenge organisers to provide challenges that are all things to all people. 

Honestly, that's just selfish and thoughtless.


----------



## Gargh

I genuinely don't see why it's so difficult to be inclusive. 

Poetry is so many different things to people. It seems at odds with the art, and the notion of an open prompt, to restrict the types of poetry allowed in the challenge. 

Maybe it's me eh? Maybe this place just isn't what I thought it was... my mistake.

It's been a fun read.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Desperately seeking some deception.

Only five days remain to enter the Challenge, with such a juicy topic, let's get posting!


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Oh dear sweet entrants, I am seeking to find you! There are 52.5 hours left to enter our current Challenge. Let's get posting, poets!


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Last minute posters still have a tad less than six hours left to enter this month's challenge.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

As promised last month:


*​HEADS UP!!!*


There are a mere 20.5 hours remaining to take part in this month's voting.


----------



## Phil Istine

The November challenge,"Singularity", looks quite enticing.
It brings to mind a concept that's been in my head for years.
How to turn that concept into poetry is a tough challenge.
I probably don't have the skills required to do it well, but I will have fun trying.


----------



## Gumby

As nice as it is to get that medal pinned to your profile, the fun and the learning is worth so much more! Singularity can have so many double meanings to play with. I look forward to seeing what you are planning!


----------



## Phil Istine

Gumby said:


> As nice as it is to get that medal pinned to your profile, the fun and the learning is worth so much more! Singularity can have so many double meanings to play with. I look forward to seeing what you are planning!



I'm looking forward to seeing what I'm planning too :icon_cheesygrin: - because it's very different from my original intentions.  It's the weirdest poem I've ever written - not that I've written many.  I think I need to be careful not to confuse effort with achievement


----------



## Chesters Daughter

There are still 3.5 hours remaining to enter this month's challenge.


----------



## Phil Istine

Here's a thought, though maybe the will might not be there to do it, or maybe the forum software won't allow it (though I have seen this in other fora which might run on different software):  (1) Hiding the ongoing poll scores from a person until after they have voted. (2) Revealing those results to all once the voting has ended.


----------



## Cran

I think those options are available - been a while since I posted a poll for anything. Happy to harbour any discussions or suggestions. Any decisions, of course, come from the challenge organiser/s.


----------



## Phil Istine

Thanks for the respose Cran.
Perhaps I ought to elaborate and say why I have made this suggestion.
One concern is that a voter may be influenced by how the voting is going instead of trusting their own judgement more - perhaps a little like the (supposed but unproven) influence of opinion polls in political elections.
Another was a situation I found myself in a few months ago (and believe me, I really am loath to admit this  ).  I voted in a challenge a few months ago and noticed that my poem was running a close second.  There was a (very brief) temptation to avoid voting for the leading poem, even though I thought it was the best one on offer.  I'm glad to say that integrity won the day.  Mine finished joint second.  If I had allowed my conscience to temporarily desert me, it would have been joint first.  I hate to admit that I thought about it - even for a few seconds.  But I did.  The important thing is that I was aware of the folly of it and, in typical Klingon fashion, saw it as dishonourable.
Now I'm trying to work out if I'm a scumbag for even considering it, or a decent guy for not succumbing to temptation.
I'm reminded of John Wooden's

“_The true test of a man’s character is what he does when no one is watching._”

     I passed - this time.


----------



## jenthepen

I like your idea, Phil, and admire your honesty - both for admitting your temptation and in resisting it. :thumbl:


----------



## Cran

> I'm trying to work out if I'm a scumbag for even considering it, or a decent guy for not succumbing to temptation.


That you ask yourself the question reveals the answer.

A good person is not blind to the bad in the world or the bad within, but chooses to oppose it.


----------



## aj47

I'll have to look at a live poll ... didn't consider that one could see what the rankings were if one hadn't voted.  I know after you vote, it shows you the rankings instead of the poll options.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Phil, it is an honor to know you.

I completely agree that being privy to the proceedings can influence voters, and keeping potential voters blind to what has already transpired appeals to me. That said, the only option currently available when posting a poll is to make the voters and their choices public, which I feel is an invasion of privacy. Unless our most dear Admiral can tinker with poll setup options from the helm in the sky, we're stuck as is.

Please know that all input posted regarding the Challenge is greatly appreciated, and that any suggestions that are made are always seriously considered.


----------



## PrinzeCharming

astroannie said:


> I'll have to look at a live poll ... didn't consider that one could see what the rankings were if one hadn't voted.  I know after you vote, it shows you the rankings instead of the poll options.




Yes, it's true. As a new member here exposed to a few voting polls, I have noticed this myself. You don't have to vote to see the current results. This opens the doors to popularity contests as well as what Phil has mentioned. 



> One concern is that a voter may be influenced by how the voting is going instead of *trusting *their _*own judgement*_ more.



I have honestly read the entries before casting my votes, but the current tallies seem to provoke a nudge to rethink ones' decision. I know poll results have influenced me to step back and look over my final vote to see if my own judgement was in line with the consensus. I hope we can look into this matter for future writing contests. Perhaps, try it out and see how everything pans out.


----------



## aj47

So I made a poll.  Yup.  I thought that button was an abstinence button -- what you clicked if you didn't want to cast a ballot.

>sigh<  Yeah, if that could be disabled, it would be A Good Thing for the challenge.


----------



## Cran

The option for blind polls isn't available for versions of vBulletin after 3.x, and that is a mod not endorsed by vB but created by a vB user. The best I can do is to ask our tech guru if that mod can be added or adapted for our use.


----------



## Phil Istine

PrinzeCharming said:


> I have honestly read the entries before casting my votes, but the current tallies seem to provoke a nudge to rethink ones' decision. I know poll results have influenced me to step back and look over my final vote to see if my own judgement was in line with the consensus.



I know where you're coming from on this.  Although I've never changed a vote, it has sometimes left me feeling that I've done it "wrong" when I have voted for a poem that has received very few votes.  I'm actually a lot less concerned about this than I was initially.  Now, I just take the view that maybe I saw something in a poem that wasn't obvious to some of the other voters.  It has taken a little while to realise that my opinions have value too.


----------



## Cran

Cran said:


> The option for blind polls isn't available for versions of vBulletin after 3.x, and that is a mod not endorsed by vB but created by a vB user. The best I can do is to ask our tech guru if that mod can be added or adapted for our use.


*It looks like Kevin_L (our tech guru) has delivered yet again! You now have blind poll options.*


----------



## aj47

... and there was much rejoicing !!!


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Cran said:


> *It looks like Kevin_L (our tech guru) has delivered yet again! You now have blind poll options.*



I am smiling, everyone head for the fallout shelters for the end is surely nigh. My sincerest thanks to both our Admiral and Kevin, and to Phil for getting the ball rolling. Poll opens on Monday, kiddies. Get ready to rely solely upon your own opinions. This is simply grand. Yay!


----------



## am_hammy

This is going to be nice for each poet as well. Sometimes it can be disheartening to see so little voting toward your own work and can make a person not want to enter the contest again. 

Super glad this whole thing was brought to light. =)


----------



## midnightpoet

I can see where this can improve the fairness of the competition.  Good job, guys.


----------



## Phil Istine

Cran said:


> *It looks like Kevin_L (our tech guru) has delivered yet again! You now have blind poll options.*



Nicely done Cran and Kevin.  Thank you both.


----------



## Schrody

I see there's no "scores" thread in this section... :-k


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Not exactly sure what you're inquiring, hon. I'm thinking you may be looking for how poems are evaluated, but since we use a poll in lieu of judges, what matters most to a particular voter dictates that voter's criteria. Worth is based upon the usual: content, form, proper SPaG usage, etc. Hope this helps, and if I was completely off base regarding your query, wouldn't be the first time, lol, please clarify further so that I may assist.


----------



## Schrody

Oh, so you're picking a winner by a poll?


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Yes, ma'am, we've been using polls for a good seven years now. As of last month, thanks to a suggestion by Phil Istine, the results of our poll are now hidden from view until the poll officially closes, so voters are now choosing sans any influence save their own opinions. Please take a gander at voting threads past if you've some spare moments to see that it works well for us.

It is a great pleasure to have you participate, and I'm hoping to see you become a regular entrant.


----------



## Schrody

Ah, thanks. Being used to scores in CoF and LM, I was surprised.  I think it's a cool idea!


----------



## Rookish

Damned and blasted, I absentmindedly added a blank space (two enters) beneath my title with no remembrance or regard as to the ten minute law {}.(+)

It was two minutes past the regulatory time, will there be a penalty (poetic banishment) for this?
Not sure whether this forum is similar to others where mods can see the nature of an edit, in which case the simple addition of blank spaces for aesthetic reasons can be verified(hopefully)


----------



## PiP

Pssssttt... I've just sent the invites for WF's Inaugural Grand Invitational Poetry Challenge. Guess how many acceptance replies I've received already? I'm really excited!


----------



## Darkkin

View attachment 12735


----------



## Tiashe

PiP said:


> Pssssttt... I've just sent the invites for WF's Inaugural Grand Invitational Poetry Challenge. Guess how many acceptance replies I've received already? I'm really excited!
> 
> 
> View attachment 12734



So since I have never won a poetry competition before, I am not allowed to enter?


----------



## PiP

Tiashe said:


> So since I have never won a poetry competition before, I am not allowed to enter?



Not this year, Tiashe. Soreeeee.... Anyone can enter the Purple Pip Poetry or Monthly Poetry Challenge. The Pip is a mentor run  judged challenge and the Monthly Poetry challenge is decided by poll.


----------



## Aquilo

Oh my lord... it's the limo, right? I knew we shouldn't have ordered the bar...


----------



## Darkkin

[video=youtube_share;9MN03T-8CO8]https://youtu.be/9MN03T-8CO8[/video]


----------



## Aquilo

*For the Curious Poet*




WF is celebrating US National Poetry Month, and there's a host of events  taking place throughout April. One is NaPoWriMo (National Poetry  Writing Month) where there's one hell of a challenge to write 30  poems in 30 Days.

For full details on how to enter and what you can win, please see Site News and Announcements!

NaPoWriMo.
In celebration of US:

​


----------



## Chesters Daughter

*Anonymous for April?*

You decide. Please post your opinions so that we may tally them to see whether or not to go Anonymous for our next challenge.


----------



## Phil Istine

I'm fine either way.  It would be a lot more work for the host though, wouldn't it?


----------



## Chesters Daughter

I'd rather copy and paste than weed the garden, lol. Appreciate your kind concern, Phil.


----------



## -xXx-

i think anon is a fun idea.
maybe it will encourage people to push their boundaries.
(in terms of style experimentation; possibly content)
i like to try to guess who wrote what.
_but_ i'm not what most people mean by "real poet".


----------



## Rookish

I say aye, it would be entertaining.


----------



## Darkkin

Hey, I'm more than comfortable with my alter ego of nobody...Who?


----------



## aj47

I like the idea very much.  I've been tempted to weigh a poem a little differently because of who wrote it and I think that if I've had the temptation, others have, as well.  If we're all anonymous, that puts the focus on the work, where it belongs.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Has no one else the desire to chime in?

Many thanks to those who have done so.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Since all feedback has been positive, we'll be entering anonymously in April. I'll include any specs I evilly devise in my opening post tomorrow. We'll see how well it goes and decide how we should proceed in the future after all is said and done.


----------



## PiP

Check out the first entry for the Grand Invitational Poetry Challenge! Two more poems to be posted soon... any more?


----------



## PiP

Come on Prize Poets... let's get these entries rockin' n rollin...  I've just posted another two entries!


----------



## Firemajic

:cower: Check procrastination central, Pippppy....


----------



## aj47

oh my, do you know what writer's block is ... it's having the ideas crowd each other to where none of them gets written.


----------



## PiP

astroannie said:


> oh my, do you know what writer's block is ... it's having the ideas crowd each other to where none of them gets written.



I understand that feeling v_ery wel_l... They also argue with each other


----------



## Gumby

PiP said:


> I understand that feeling v_ery wel_l... They also argue with each other


----------



## escorial

i found my inspiration for the poetry theme spaces unseen..my first choice was the bible but i let that go...i found a book of Martin Luther King speeches and it was just packed full of inspirational words and amazing sayings...now all i got to do is cut it down to a size i like....also i have a piece about three d space..which could do....


----------



## PiP

I've just added another two great entries. Check them out <<Here>>


----------



## aj47

Hey, there's news on the NaPo front, too:  http://www.writingforums.com/threads/164464-What-is-NaPoWriMo?p=1986258&viewfull=1#post1986258


----------



## PiP

Hey Peops and Poets... I have added another entry for the Prize Challenge! That's 9 poems... If you haven't already entered please pick up your pens and get writing - time is running out...

Be warned: Turtle has taken PiP's pointy sticky...


----------



## escorial

PiP said:


> Hey Peops and Poets... I have added another entry for the Prize Challenge! That's 9 poems... If you haven't already entered please pick up your pens and get writing - time is running out...
> 
> Be warned: Turtle has taken PiP's pointy sticky...




the ticking crocodile waits for no one....14th.......


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Have we no more takers for the anonymous challenge?


----------



## escorial

The piece I have been working on I cannot use or salvage...I'm afraid it was to close to the words of  Dr Martin Luther King to call my own...still I have a few days to find a replacement... all the entries so far have been great to read.....


----------



## escorial

I don't think I've ever put so much effort in and struggled to finish a poem.....and now I must find one from within..hopefully


----------



## escorial

I spent a day looking for a topic to tally up with spaces unseen but I never found it...I have put more effort into this poem and for some reason I have yet to find one that works for me....


----------



## aj47

My problem was that the rhythm is SPAces unSEEN  instead of being nice iambs.

Did you do the anonymous "suffer the children" for Lisa?


----------



## Chesters Daughter

I know everyone is busy with all the different poetry challenges available in this fine poetic month of April, and a mind can only focus on so much, but we've only eight entries in the anonymous monthly challenge, which is considerably less than our usual turnout. Yes, I'm whining. That said, with only two days remaining to enter this month's challenge, I'm making a last desperate shout out. My inbox is feeling so neglected! Whine over.


----------



## aj47

I'll try.  No promises.


----------



## Darkkin

I've put in for the anonymous, as well as the invitational...


----------



## PiP

Less than 12 hours to go before the Inaugural Prize Poetry challenge closes! Come on you poets... if you are not in you can't win!


----------



## midnightpoet

I'm also surprised there aren't more entries - but with all the different things going on this month I imagine everyone's muse is stretched pretty thin.:-D I've only done five I think, although that's more than my usual.


----------



## Gumby

Come on poets! Find that inner bard!!!


----------



## PiP

The clocks ticking...


----------



## ned

hello - just a thought, for the monthly anonymous poetry challenge.

as it stands, when entering a poem, the author states whether the poem should be posted on the public or private forum.
how about, if the author wishes to remain anonymous after voting has closed, then they should also stipulate "to remain anonymous" etc
this way, the highly anticipated results can be matched with the authors (where appropriate) which is all part of the fun for me.
 - and might also speed up the process.

any other thoughts on this?
Ned



Chester's Daughter said:


> I've been more scatterbrained than usual, and although I was thinking about a formal reveal, I hadn't decided on how to go about it. That said, thanks to ned, I've added the following:
> 
> *All identities will be revealed upon the close of the poll. IF YOU WISH TO REMAIN ANONYMOUS, PLEASE SPECIFY IT WITHIN YOUR ENTRY PM.**
> *
> to the instructions in both opening posts. I will list those who want to be revealed in the voting thread once the poll has closed and we have our winner.
> 
> Truly appreciate the input, hon. Thank you.
> *
> 
> *


----------



## Chesters Daughter

astroannie said:


> Howdy everyone. I haven't voted yet, because I just got back to my computer after cooking dinner. I will vote soon.
> 
> In the meanwhile, I want a show of hands of folks interested in critiquing all of the anonymous entries. Once I gauge the interest, we can work out the finer points (probably set up a private group and then post a composite critique similar to what the critiques with the scores in the prose challenges look like). My thinking is this would be posted AFTER the voting so that no one is influenced, but the critiquing could be happening during the voting period--just out of sight of the voters.


----------



## Phil Istine

astroannie said:


> Howdy everyone.  I haven't voted yet, because I just got back to my computer after cooking dinner. I will vote soon.
> 
> In the meanwhile, I want a show of hands of folks interested in critiquing all of the anonymous entries. Once I gauge the interest, we can work out the finer points (probably set up a private group and then post a composite critique similar to what the critiques with the scores in the prose challenges look like). My thinking is this would be posted AFTER the voting so that no one is influenced, but the critiquing could be happening during the voting period--just out of sight of the voters.



That sounds an interesting possibility.  Time is not on my side but I certainly wish to learn more about providing poetry critique.  Thirteen entries and ten days to complete (I'm writing a C o F entry too).  OK, count me in please.  It's not as if I have to write a poetry manual on each entry.


----------



## Darkkin

astroannie said:


> In the meanwhile, I want a show of hands of folks interested in critiquing all of the anonymous entries. Once I gauge the interest, we can work out the finer points (probably set up a private group and then post a composite critique similar to what the critiques with the scores in the prose challenges look like). My thinking is this would be posted AFTER the voting so that no one is influenced, but the critiquing could be happening during the voting period--just out of sight of the voters.



Yes, I voted.

I'm going to have play the doubting Thomas with this.  I've judged on the PiP, when the poems are more akin to oranges with a primary element or form in common.  The Monthly Challenge simply has a theme making each piece a horse of many colours, giving you everything from apples to kumquats.  There is no set standard outside of the theme, diminishing context, which to some writers, matters.  

Also, by putting the critique in a private group, you are taking away critical element in the critique process, the right of the writer to defend and explain their work.  In the PiP, we have the judging center, where poets have a chance to respond.  Poets have a right to know what is being said and why.  Currently, if a poet wants a critique, they can post the piece to either of the poetry forums after the challenge.  This leaves the decision in the hands of the poets. 
*
Critique should not be a mandatory element.*  This is one thing that sets the Invitational and PiP challenges apart from the Monthly Poetry Challenge, is that critique from a judging panel is expected.  I've defended my thesis project before a board and I have also gone to the mat to prove a case of plagarism, and I staunchly believe every writer, no matter their talent has a right to respond, to question critique.  To know the why...  

Consider too, the entrants, some of whom enter anonymously, but never post to the regular poetry boards for critique.  Has anyone ever stopped to ask why?  I'm guessing it has something to do with the fact that there isn't a critique element involved, which allows some of these reluctant, would be poets a chance to step out of their box without the weight of judging.

Why am I taking such a vehement stance on this?  Well, the Invitational is a challenge on a different level.  You have to earn the right to enter; you go in knowing what to expect.  The PiP is all about improvement.  And the Monthly Challenge, with its choice of anonymity and no critique offers a chance for all writers to try a hand at poetry without fear of repercussions.  It gives poets of all levels a chance to try.  Adding a critique mandate may have an adverse effect on the level of entries or vise versa.

On the flip side, if there is an offer of free critique, you might be inundated.  Basic netiquette says offer as much, if not more, than you take.  For the most part this holds true, but there are some who simply take, take, take...Lending nothing, but a one sentence review say, nice job.  That is not critique.  It is also a determining factor in what I chose to critique.

Poetry is a different animal than prose, fluid in its nature, and often highly personal.  If critique becomes a required element, it could go flashpoint without warning, simply because so many writers don't know what true critique is.  What worked, what didn't, and why.  Yes, there are refrigerator poets out there, but there are just as many serious poets, who if they want critique can take the time to put up a thread.

Finally, I've been told that my style is an antipodal point to some critiquing methods and I  enter just about every monthly challenge.  I am not going to start  writing in a different style for the ease of mandatory critique  stipulation, nor will I force my work upon anyone.  I'll withdraw from a challenge before I do so as required critique isn't fair to either party.

Let the Monthly Challenge remain the middle ground for all poets.  Instead, consider starting a group for challenge entries, voluntarily submitted by the entrants, for the sole purpose of critique.  Keep it a public group.  Thus, you have it organized and writers still have a place to defend their work.  And critique isn't mandatory.

- Darkkin, the Tedious of Ponds Bottom


----------



## aj47

Darkkin said:


> Also, by putting the critique in a private group, you are taking away critical element in the critique process, the right of the writer to defend and explain their work.



I believe you misunderstood.  The critiques would be in a private group only until the voting is done.  The idea is only the critiquERs would be in this group.  Then, on the 26th or some other point after voting is closed, someone (probably me) will collate the critiques into one nice post and post them in this thread or their own thread or something.  We don't want to influence the voting in any way.




> In the PiP, we have the judging center, where poets have a chance to respond.  Poets have a right to know what is being said and why.  Currently, if a poet wants a critique, they can post the piece to either of the poetry forums after the challenge.  This leaves the decision in the hands of the poets.



Oh, they'll know what's being said--this isn't about secrecy.


> *Critique should not be a mandatory element.*



I'm soliciting volunteers -- no one is required to critique anyone's work.



> This is one thing that sets the Invitational and PiP challenges apart from the Monthly Poetry Challenge, is that critique from a judging panel is expected.



We're not a judging panel--we're your fellow poets. 



> I've defended my thesis project before a board and I have also gone to the mat to prove a case of plagarism, and I staunchly believe every writer, no matter their talent has a right to respond, to question critique.  To know the why...



And poets can certainly respond to what the critiquers say.  This isn't about judging.  I'm not trying to score poems, but to apply the same sets of critical eyes we'd apply to poems posted on the main boards.  Surely, our challenge work is supposed to be our *best* stuff.  So let's treat it like our best work and give feedback on what works and what doesn't.



> Consider too, the entrants, some of whom enter anonymously, but never post to the regular poetry boards for critique.  Has anyone ever stopped to ask why?  I'm guessing it has something to do with the fact that there isn't a critique element involved, which allows some of these reluctant, would be poets a chance to step out of their box without the weight of judging.



Again, I'm not talking about scoring or judging.  I'm talking about the same sort of stuff we do for other poetry.



> Why am I taking such a vehement stance on this?  Well, the Invitational is a challenge on a different level.  You have to earn the right to enter; you go in knowing what to expect.  The PiP is all about improvement.  And the Monthly Challenge, with its choice of anonymity and no critique offers a chance for all writers to try a hand at poetry without fear of repercussions.  It gives poets of all levels a chance to try.  Adding a critique mandate may have an adverse effect on the level of entries or vise versa.



It's not a mandate.  You don't have to critique anyone if you don't want to.  



> On the flip side, if there is an offer of free critique, you might be inundated.  Basic netiquette says offer as much, if not more, than you take.  For the most part this holds true, but there are some who simply take, take, take...Lending nothing, but a one sentence review say, nice job.  That is not critique.  It is also a determining factor in what I chose to critique.



Well, honestly, one of the reasons I wanted to try this is that the entries are anonymous.  There is no baggage attached to the authors' names when they aren't present.



> Poetry is a different animal than prose, fluid in its nature, and often highly personal.  If critique becomes a required element, it could go flashpoint without warning, simply because so many writers don't know what true critique is.  What worked, what didn't, and why.  Yes, there are refrigerator poets out there, but there are just as many serious poets, who if they want critique can take the time to put up a thread.



It's also anonymous. So if someone wrote something that got some negative raps, then they have the option to take it home and lick their wounds in private.  That's one more piece of why I'm thinking this is a good idea.



> Finally, I've been told that my style is an antipodal point to some critiquing methods and I  enter just about every monthly challenge.  I am not going to start  writing in a different style for the ease of mandatory critique  stipulation, nor will I force my work upon anyone.  I'll withdraw from a challenge before I do so as required critique isn't fair to either party.



Look, the point of having multiple people critique is so that poets (not just you) don't run afoul of the person who doesn't *get* their style/metaphor/whatever.  It's not *Annie Sez You Suck And They Shine* poetry.  It's a group of us looking at themed work on a piece-by-piece basis and saying, "this, this works" or "this, not-so-much" and at the end of the day, like any critique, the author is free to totally ignore any or all of it.



> Let the Monthly Challenge remain the middle ground for all poets.  Instead, consider starting a group for challenge entries, voluntarily submitted by the entrants, for the sole purpose of critique.  Keep it a public group.  Thus, you have it organized and writers still have a place to defend their work.  And critique isn't mandatory.



See above.  The group's privacy is only for the purposes of not-influencing potential voters by comments/critiques made prior to the voting deadline.  It's not about hiding the critiques from the poets or the public, nor about back-*anything*. 

I hope I've clarified.


- Darkkin, the Tedious of Ponds Bottom[/QUOTE]


----------



## Darkkin

You have clarified, but I still think it should remain in the hands of the poets whether or not they want their poems critiqued.  It is a power they still currently hold and I don't feel that should be taken away from them so others have a chance to critique sans context.  All writers have a history, it is part of the learning curve, but they also have a right to determine what they want to offer up for critique.  That choice should not be forfeited because others want a chance to critique certain pieces.  That is the poet's prerogative.

Again consider a public group, challenge poems open for critique to be posted to that group after voting has been concluded.  This still maintains the right of the entrants to decide if they want feedback on their piece.  Leave the critiquing open until the next challenge opens.  Once the new challenge opens, close the critique threads on the prior challenge.


----------



## aj47

Darkkin, you say that like critique is a *bad*​ thing.


----------



## Darkkin

It isn't, but it is the right of a writer to decide what they want to put up for critique and that is what is being overlooked.  And that is what feels _wrong_.  Taking that right away.    We shouldn't be able to say that by entering this contest, you have to submit to critique.  That is not fair to the entrants, some of whom, may not want feedback, merely a chance to see how their piece stacks up against forum competition.  

I know I've only been here a year, but the Monthly Poetry Challenge has always been a determined by the readership.  It has never been about critiques and scores.  That is why we have the PiP and the Invitational.  I'm fine with critique, but it is a decision that needs to remain in the hands of the writers.


----------



## Firemajic

There is a way this could be done, that would be fair to everyone, IF the administer of the challenge agrees... The poet could add, at the bottom of their poem ,"Open to critique".. This would allow them the option and the benefit of the critique, and would prevent the Critter from wasting their valuable insight and time....


----------



## Darkkin

It should be optional, not mandatory, which is why I suggested an open public group for challenge entries.  Gives critiquers a chance at challenge pieces, but also maintains the rights of the poets.  But if there is an overformalization of everything, participation in both critique and entry could dwindle to nothing.


----------



## Firemajic

I guess my question is why? Why have a private group.. Why can't the poet just post his/her poem in the poetry thread.. then everyone would know that he/she WANTED and WELCOMED a critique.


----------



## Firemajic

AND, should this discussion be moved somewhere else, this is the voting thread...


----------



## Darkkin

That's the way the system currently is, maintaining the poet's prerogative.  A private group would negate that right, and that is _my_ issue with this suggestion.  Not critique, itself, but the loss of _choice_.


----------



## aj47

D. it would be a gift.  I suppose there are people who don't like gifts.


----------



## Darkkin

astroannie said:


> D. it would be a gift.  I suppose there are people who don't like gifts.





I fail to see how.  You will pardon my ignorance on this point, but  everything I am is screaming at me that it is wrong to take away the  right to choose from the poets.  Apologies for any inconvenience, but I cannot in good conscience condone a private poetry challenge critique conclave.  It threatens to take the power out of the hands of the poets and put it into those of just a few.  Keep it a public group, opened after voting closes, PM the poets of the pieces you want to critique, or wait for the poets to post in the public forums.

Is there a possibility for benefit, yes.  There always is in critique, but there is also the potential for disaster.  Depending on who you get to volunteer for such a group, we could see a collapse in Challenge entries because many posters on the boards have reputations whether we want them or not.  To some it can be intimidating knowing that there are comments coming from certain individuals.  And yes, we say don't take it personally, it is the poem and an opinion, not you.  But we are human.  Fatally flaw with emotion and despite our best efforts, we all take it personally for a few minutes at least.  Being subjected to those emotions should be a choice of the poets, not a determining factor for the entry of a readership determined challenge.

It is for the poets to determine the time, the place, and the piece.  Writing is incredibly personal and only the writer can truly determine when they can withstand the heat of solid critique.  I have Turtle, but not everyone has a shell.


----------



## Firemajic

astroannie said:


> D. it would be a gift.  I suppose there are people who don't like gifts.




I disagree.. It is NOT a "gift" if the poet did not ask / need/ or request  an OPINION or a critique... It is intrusive.. Like the comments I get on my glass art, at a show.. I am not there for a critique.. I am there to present my work for all to see and buy... if you don't like it, don't buy it.. don't ask me why I used this kind of glass or technique... I did NOT ask for your opinion...so don't tell me what I should have done.. Let it be a choice of each poet.


----------



## Nellie

Darkkin and Juls,

I strongly agree with both of you!! When I was invited to PiP for posting my poem, I came on without expecting any sort of "gift", such as "critiquing" is suggested as being. In some instances, the person doing the critique is moreso insulting than helping, like a critique is meant to be. Therefore, I stopped posting in PiP. Like "Thumper the Rabbit" said, _" If you can't say something nice, don't say nothin' at all.  _At least, if one wants to critique, find the words to do so without terribly insulting the person. In doing so, that person may keep working and perfecting their work.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

A little background info. The Poetry Challenge did begin as a judged event with scores being compiled for the entries, but as acquiring capable and available judges became more and more a task, it was decided to switch to a popular vote poll. Initially, only one vote per customer was permitted, but in the interest of fairness and to avoid a winner being crowned in a popularity contest, the mandatory three vote rule was implemented. Even after we switched to the poll, the voting thread was used by many to critique whatever pieces they chose to discuss. Somewhere along the way, the critique simply ceased, which was sad because the initial purpose of the challenge was for poets to put forth their best in an effort to win the Laureate, as well as to be a teaching tool for everyone to collectively learn how to better their work in the hopes of eventually snaring the coveted prize. Its second purpose was teach us how to refine our work to a satisfactory completed state to train us in the necessary methods to sumbit work to publishers.

As Jul mentioned, poets may post their pieces on the board once the poll has closed if they are seeking individualized critique, and this was a common practice way back. Many entries were posted on the board even when some had already received crit within the voting thread. Poetry Challenges is a creative board, and as with every other creative board, all posts are subject to critique, even though it is not mandatory. Critique is never a bad thing, ever. Knowing we've done well inspires us, and knowing where we've faltered keeps us from making the same errors again. Improvement is always a positive experience, and even though acknowledging our shortcomings can be a bitter pill to swallow, the value of doing so can only serve to aid us in future endeavors.

I completely understand that having work scrutinized can be daunting, but if one is entering a challenge it must be assumed one has a desire to compete. Having performance evaluated is always prerequisite in any competition. Having challenge pieces critiqued does not hamper a poet's freedom in any facet as far as I'm concerned. Because an entry is being subjected to critique does not mean there is suddenly a whole list of rules that need to be followed in order to enter. What critics look for cannot be assigned a box. It's safe to assume that they will be looking for the usage of poetic devices, and proper usage of the English language, as well as orginality. Unless a challenge is strictly adhering to a particular form, such as a sonnet, there can be no set standard of what is expected of your entry. In a do as you feel challenge, you write as you will, and those who choose to critique look for things that make what you wrote a poem. I strenuously disagree with the mistaken concept of "if I say it's a poem, it is a poem", for even outside of strict adherence to a form which has defined standards, in the absence of any poetic devices at all, a few prosaic sentences cut to bits with ill-placed line breaks does not a poem make, ever. 

It is impossible for a set standard to be established when there is no adherence to a particular form. Those who choose to critique will examine your string of words to determine if you've created a true poem with the use of universally accepted poetic devices, and whether or not those devices were used properly, and applied to their best advantage. Aside from that, how can poetry be defined? But, of course, this is merely my humble opinion and I am not all knowing, so grain of salt, please.

Adding critique, as it was in the beginning, to the challenge experience can only be construed as a win-win in our ever diligent pursuit to improve.


----------



## aj47

I don't understand.  Pardon my ignorance.  This is, I thought, a *writing forum*. Aren't we writers here?  Aren't we trying to improve?


----------



## Firemajic

astroannie said:


> I don't understand.  Pardon my ignorance.  This is, I thought, a *writing forum*. Aren't we writers here?  Aren't we trying to improve?



Come on Annie, you are NOT ignorant and you know it.. I enjoy the poetry challenge for 2 reasons... ONE: The prompt forces me to be creative, which IMPROVES my WRITING SKILLS. TWO: I love that this is the peoples choice award.. especially, since it is anonymous... When I write for this challenge, I want freedom to do it my way, and freedom from critique... the vote says it all...


----------



## RhythmOvPain

This is probably totally not my place, but the whole point of an artistic *challenge* is to have one's work scrutinized to determine if it's better than anyone else's.


----------



## Firemajic

RhythmOvPain said:


> This is probably totally not my place, but the whole point of an artistic *challenge* is to have one's work scrutinized to determine if it's better than anyone else's.



And IT IS... by the VOTERS..


----------



## aj47

For those poets who do not want critique, we offer the option of posting work in the Motley Tavern.  Or a personal blog.


----------



## Firemajic

well, like I said, I am not against critique, we have it in the main poetry thread, we have it in the workshop, we have it in the Pip challenge, we have mentors that the poets can PM ... we do HAVE critique... and you and DarKKin excel at that.. your and Darkkin's expertise are second to none... BUT, JMO.. the poet should have a CHOICE, that's all...


----------



## aj47

RhythmOvPain said:


> This is probably totally not my place, but the whole point of an artistic *challenge* is to have one's work scrutinized to determine if it's better than anyone else's.





Firemajic said:


> And IT IS... by the VOTERS..



That's what I'm talking about.  Not bringing in outside whosits but having us, *the people voting*, say WHY we voted the way we did, in a coherent, coordinated fashion.  I'm not talking about judging.  I'm not talking about scoring.  If a poet's ego is so fragile that they can't stand seeing feedback, then maybe they should have reconsidered posting to the Internet in the first place.


----------



## Firemajic

OH Annie, one more thing... I have learned so much from reading your critiques, and other poets, who have so kindly offered their insight and expertise... I feel that by reading my mentors critiques, I have learned how to read and write poetry... I am in awe of your ahMAZZING skill, and I appreciate everything you do to help all of us.. Thank you..


----------



## Firemajic

astroannie said:


> That's what I'm talking about.  Not bringing in outside whosits but having us, *the people voting*, say WHY we voted the way we did, in a coherent, coordinated fashion.  I'm not talking about judging.  I'm not talking about scoring.  If a poet's ego is so fragile that they can't stand seeing feedback, then maybe they should have reconsidered posting to the Internet in the first place.




OH, well as long as there are no scores, but JUST educated dialogue about the poem, I am all for that, and if I can help, I will... BUT, it MUST be the poet's CHOICE... please...


----------



## Darkkin

astroannie said:


> That's what I'm talking about.  Not bringing in outside whosits but having us, *the people voting*, say WHY we voted the way we did, in a coherent, coordinated fashion.  I'm not talking about judging.  I'm not talking about scoring.  If a poet's ego is so fragile that they can't stand seeing feedback, then maybe they should have reconsidered posting to the Internet in the first place.




Writing does entail personal responsibility on the part of the reception of critique, but what this sounds like is that voters will have to detail why they voted for such and such a piece.  You've seen the regular boards, how much participation do you think will stem from this?  Three critiques or validations, one per vote...How many will take the time, heck, even trust their own instincts enough to articulate their thoughts about a piece?  I'm guessing the offering will be pretty slim.

Look at it this way, which type of test was infinitely preferred.  Essay or multiple choice.  I'm very good at the detail and explain, but not everyone is comfortable with it, in point of fact, it is safe to say, many abhor it.  The vote, you click which ones you _got_:  Now explain why...:uncomfortableness:  Would I like to see more participation in things like this, yes.  Do I think it will happen?  Eeh...:nightmare:

Keep it a public group, poet's choice, and also voter's choice if they want to detail why they liked poem A above poem B.


----------



## PiP

Firemajic said:


> And IT IS... by the VOTERS..



I actually agree with Juls *ducks* If I enter a challenge and the winner is decided by poll then I don't want critique. I want my poem to stand or fall my it's own merits in the eyes of the reader...or not. When I want critique I will enter the Pip Challenge or post my poem to the workshop. My personal opinion, as a member, is that if you receive negative critiques then it will influence the voting. I've not entered the Poetry challenge this month as I ran out of time.

And when I vote, I am certainly not going to justify who I voted for and why. Sometimes it is not always the technically correct poem that wins as proved by the recent Inaugural Prize Poetry Challenge; it is the poem that that reaches out and captivates the reader.


----------



## Nellie

astroannie said:


> That's what I'm talking about.  Not bringing in outside whosits but having us, *the people voting*, say WHY we voted the way we did, in a coherent, coordinated fashion.  I'm not talking about judging.  I'm not talking about scoring.  If a poet's ego is so fragile that they can't stand seeing feedback, then maybe they should have reconsidered posting to the Internet in the first place.



Then let's have the feedback out in the open, too, so everyone can see it, not going behind with PMs!!. If the person giving the feedback doesn't know how to do so in a poignant manner, perhaps they shouldn't be doing so if _their_ ego is so fragile.


----------



## Firemajic

EXACTLY! Pippy expressed what I was trying to say.... I can't say WHY Gumby's poem "Bitter Waters" [I think that's the title] or rcallaci's "The Spider Weeps" or DarKKin's Strangeways, or Nellie's poetry speaks to me... But it does.. and when I vote, I vote from an emotional reaction... And HOW can that be wrong? After all, it IS our message that matters... There are a lot of technically correct poems that leave me with nothing..


----------



## Darkkin

Internet poetry forums are amateur hour, most poets numbering among the self taught dabblers.  Here we have a fairly decent contingent of committed poets, many who actively seek to improve under their own volition.  To take that self motivation for granted and say, well you have to do this, this and this, if you want to enter this challenge just for a chance for anonymous critique would be doing a huge disservice the poets who at least take the time to try.

Will I critique a challenge piece not openly offered by a poet, no.  They did not post the piece to a primary board, which implies that critique is either a) not needed or b) not wanted.  In turn, indicating that there are better candidates for my time.  Will I vote and then justify why I voted, no.  My reasons are my own, and should be allowed to remain as such.

The PiP is a critique based challenge, with significant follow through from the poets.  It is a huge part of why I participate on both sides of the challenge.  With the Monthly Challenge, it seems like you are asking for a lot of invested effort for negligible return.  Pilot a group, see how it goes.  As a writer that is your prerogative.

Seems like I was on the other side of this arguement last week about the 30 in 30 actually begin a challenge...:uncomfortableness:


----------



## -xXx-

_*is challenged*
*poetically, and otherwise*_
in a different forum challenge,
reader feedback (not critique)
was offered for prose-not poetry.

many writers were deeply emotionally
attached to their poetic expressions.
it was important to their emotional
processing (and voicing of their experience)
that whatever they were able to put forth
was valuable in itself.
for some there were years between the
initial attempt and a more final composition.

the PIP does appear to provide a regular
opportunity for individuals to work with
critique, imho.


----------



## PiP

I appreciated the critiques left on the #NaPoWriMo challenge because they motivated me as most of the poems were written under duress. BTW, it's not just the poetry monthly challenge I am against critiques it is also SideTrips and therefore I hesitate to enter because of it.


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## Chesters Daughter

It would seem I take the Poetry Challenge a great deal more seriously than most. Perhaps because I was around when it was in its infancy. Receiving the Laureate is a big deal, a sign of achievement afforded by our contemporaries, and before we had badges, the winner wore the title beneath their avatar until a new one was named. The purpose of anonymity seems to be being misconstrued, it's not for people to hide who they are, but rather to keep the voting from becoming a popularity contest. One should be satisfied enough with their work to put their name on it, and if they aren't, then then the integrity of the challenge is cheapened. Perhaps we should label the opinions of our peers as feedback in lieu of the the obviously scary critique, because that is what we are talking about here, our peers posting their thoughts on our work in the voting thread. There will not be a judging panel, no scores will be tallied, but doesn't everyone realize that every vote is cast with purpose? The same must be said for pieces that are passed over, they are not chosen for a reason(s). Doesn't anyone want to know why the coin fell where it did? It seems to me that if all critique were positive, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. As in all things in life, everything doesn't come up roses. If you are vying for the Laureate, you should be putting your best foot forward, and if that foot comes down with a kink, don't you desire the remedy to keep it from cramping in the same fashion again?

In the past, the "feedback" was a welcome and integral part of the Challenge. I would like to see it become so again. Commenting on entries has always been voluntary and will remain thus evermore, but if you are entering a very public contest, and someone wants to comment upon your entry, I do not feel that it would be fair to declare certain entries as off limits. Let's face it, as was already pointed out, few of us have the time to offer detailed feedback on so many pieces in such a short time, so this is much hubbub about naught. Popular vote or not, every opinion is based upon someone's perception of your work, and if someone wants to come forward to share what did or did not work for them, it will remain allowable. This is, after all, a contest.


----------



## Darkkin

Critique is optional with poetry thus far.  I know I can be a heavy hitter with my critique, and my own work is no small feat to winnow through.  I don't shrink from form or rhyme.  The combination of the two, can prove intimidating and I know from experience, that even in an anonymous challenge, my style is singular enough to be easily recognized.  So I have to wonder, who would even bother to pick up a bat and take a swing at the 'Ways. 

 In all seriousness, putting my work up for critique isn't fair because I go so far beyond the box, but I still post to offer others a chance to take the swing.  I have an opinion about things and had my say, they should have the same opportunity.

As to feedback of posted pieces, having a designated area for feedback might help.  As a whole, how many entrants know that is all right, even encouraged to offer feedback, let alone know where to post?  This was something I wasn't aware of.  When the: _Challenge is now closed_ post went up, I assumed that was the end of it until voters determined the winner.

Two possible solutions: A thread stickied to the top of the Monthly Challenge forum or a public group, where critique can be offered, but is not required.

Having an area for feedback and _using_ an area are two very different horses.  Would I like to see more reader participation, yes.  Do I think it will happen...Here's hoping, with a shaker of salt.  :wink:

To quote _Field of Dreams: 'If you build it, they will come...'

_
My primary issue was the consideration of a private group with select members only, commenting.  Someone has something to say on a piece, they have a right to say it, and the writer, a chance to defend and/or justify their reasoning for the action.  Good poetry should be easily defended. 

  As a whole, everyone should be allowed to start on the same page and not have to play catch up once a thread of critiques is posted.  Comprehensive, active discussion requires equal access to material.  Discussions started in private groups, don't offer that.  Those on the outside have to scramble to catch up once a post goes public.   If things go deeper, then by all means take the discussion into PMs, but no one should be entitled to a head start.  Keep the discussion centralized and public.


----------



## aj47

How about this, D ... instead of a private group, anyone who wants to crit the May poems -- PM your crit to me and I'll post them all as a glop.  That's how other challenges do it.  I was hoping to share the workload, but I'm tough and can do it this way if it assuages your sensibilities.


----------



## Darkkin

Why not just offer a central feedback thread, to be opened after voting closes.  That way, it doesn't all land on you to organize, people who have critiques can critique, and those who have an opinion to offer, can chime in if they see fit, and no one will be unduly influenced by comments offered on the poems.  All comments are public, but this still allows those who want to critique the poems while they are still anonymous have the chance to do so.


----------



## aj47

Because my point is trying to present it as organized and coherent.  So that it's not a long meander.


----------



## Darkkin

Will there be enough active participation to warrant PMing to a single critique post?  Maybe see how many responses a general feedback thread generates first...Let the participants know they have a chance to offer feedback if they so choose.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

I wondered why the voting thread wasn't being utilized as it had been in the past, but from the flavor of this discussion, I've gleaned that perhaps everyone thought critique comments were a no-no. The voting thread *should be used for any feedback* that anyone may choose to offer, actual critique or otherwise. Multiple posts at different times are fine so that it isn't necessary to pressure yourself into getting in a comment for every piece in a single sitting. Please remember that all feedback is voluntary, so if you want to comment on one piece, and only one piece, that's perfectly fine, also. I'm keeping with past procedure because it worked well. I feel I must clarify the following: *if you enter the challenge, just like posting on the creative boards, you are putting yourself in a position to receive critique*. It was always a given that if you entered you were seeking the opinions of your readers, whether by votes or by detailed text posted within the voting thread.


----------



## aj47

So, let me ask this then ... is it okay do do that now, instead of waiting till votes are tallied?


----------



## Cran

astroannie said:


> So, let me ask this then ... is it okay do do that now, instead of waiting till votes are tallied?


Yes ... please.

When Rob's Poetry Challenge was in its infancy, following the ousting of poets from the LM Challenge, it was judged using a modified form of the LM Judging Guide (as it was then). The judging criteria were evenly split between objective (the basic technical stuff) and subjective (the feely stuff). Judges included comments or critiques, and members were invited to add their comments in the scores threads. 

Two things led to the switch to the three-votes-per-member popular poll for deciding winners: The core group of challenge poets could not agree on a judging rubric; and finding and organising enough volunteer judges was a nightmare.

Challenge organisers came and went in quick succession - some left altogether - until Rob and the Dark One* settled things down and moved to the voting format. 

Members were encouraged to add their reasons for voting for particular poems, and any other comments about any of the entries they wanted to share. Fewer and fewer respondents kept this up, until the vote threads became more like simple tally and congratulations threads. Newer members saw this and understandably thought that this is how it is done. 

It takes a lot of effort to reverse that sort of inertia, because it is easier to do nothing than to do anything, and because we all have many other demands on our time and attention.


_*and notable others, like Candid Petunia_


----------



## Phil Istine

Cran said:


> Members were encouraged to add their reasons for voting for particular poems, and any other comments about any of the entries they wanted to share. Fewer and fewer respondents kept this up, until the vote threads became more like simple tally and congratulations threads. Newer members saw this and understandably thought that this is how it is done.
> 
> _*and notable others, like Candid Petunia_



Indeed, I'm one of those who thought that this is how it is done; I've never known it any other way.  That's why I was a bit surprised to see you critiquing the entries a few months ago.  Even then, the penny didn't drop that this was a valid thing to do - I just put it down to an aberration on your part (like the site owner doesn't know his own rules ... right)


----------



## Firemajic

would it be a bad thing, if in the voting thread, I say that any poet who wants my comments on their poem, send their request to me via PM? Would that be a better solution?


----------



## Cran

Phil Istine said:


> Indeed, I'm one of those who thought that this is how it is done; I've never known it any other way.  That's why I was a bit surprised to see you critiquing the entries a few months ago.  Even then, the penny didn't drop that this was a valid thing to do - I just put it down to an aberration on your part (like the site owner doesn't know his own rules ... right)


LOL! An aberration. Yes, it could be that, but it's an entirely voluntary aberration. Going through a list of poems on a theme can be time-consuming and a challenge in itself (that's why we recognise the efforts of our judges via awards), but if enough people commented on the poems they really liked or didn't like or didn't understand, the cumulative result would be a valuable contribution to the entrants.

This is quite separate to the normal critique and feedback that members can get by posting their entries after the challenge in the normal poetry boards.




Firemajic said:


> would it be a bad thing, if in the voting thread, I say that any poet who wants my comments on their poem, send their request to me via PM? Would that be a better solution?


You could do that, Fire, but I wouldn't call it a better solution. Taking feedback off the boards runs counter to the forum's purpose. We learn from others' mistakes and successes as much as we learn from our own.


----------



## Firemajic

Cran;1998936

You could do that said:
			
		

> I'm sorry Cran, what I meant to say is, if a poet wants their entry poem commented on, they could send out PM's  to who ever, requesting a crit.. then the comments would of course be posted for all to see. That way, the poet would have the choice of having their work commented on...


----------



## -xXx-

how 'bout if submissions include a footnote from the poet:
no feedback, please
pm feedback to poet
public feedback accepted (& where that will happen)


----------



## Firemajic

-xXx- said:


> how 'bout if submissions include a footnote from the poet:
> no feedback, please
> pm feedback to poet
> public feedback accepted (& where that will happen)




I did suggest that the poet be allowed to add a footnote... and I STILL believe that the poet should have that choice, for this contest.. of course they DO have a choice... they can not enter at all, if they don't want a critique...


----------



## -xXx-

if the goal is to *decrease* people willing to submit; I agree.


----------



## Olly Buckle

When I ran competitions my goal was to minimise the work I had to do without compromising on appeal. It would seem to be best done by keeping everything uniform and as simple as possible so no-one has to be pulled up or asks questions. Arguments about perfect fairness and best practice cut no ice, as far as poetry goes, with me; it is a creative, not competitive activity; expediency for the organisers every time, it's not like we pay them


----------



## Cran

-xXx- said:


> if the goal is to *decrease* people willing to submit; I agree.


The original goal was to provide practice and experience in submitting works in the real world. Critical feedback, acceptance or rejection, is a big part of that.

If the poetry challenge is to be nothing more than a 'share' party, then it doesn't rate the recognition it once earned.


----------



## -xXx-

understood.
i've seen this discussed on every writing forum i've participated in.
the "real-world critique" aspect was usually centered around prose.


----------



## Cran

-xXx- said:


> understood.
> i've seen this discussed on every writing forum i've participated in.
> the "real-world critique" aspect was usually centered around prose.


There was a real push here (before my tenure) to lift poetry to the same level. After all, poetry is still published in periodicals and books even if not at the same volume as prose. And the idea for many of us is to see our works published.

Aside: we are also doing the same for non-fiction.


----------



## Ariel

Here's the way I see it--critique helps us improve.  Getting pats on the head is nice but, ultimately, not rewarding.  It's nice to gain recognition for your work but better to be able to improve it afterwards.


----------



## aj47

Well, the crybabies win this month.  My plate suddenly became overfull -- the fun things you know about (the forced upgrade to Win10) but there have been other RL issues that take me away from here to the extent that I don't have the time I feel I need to do proper critique for the number of pieces -- even if I limit it to the pieces on the open board.

I'm not going away.  This is not going to die.  I firmly believe that our WF challenges (both poetry and prose) should present our best work, and that, while we may choose not to revise the specific pieces we submit, we can learn from critique about issues that we have with our writing so that we may submit better work in the future.  I count myself in that *we *because I am still learning and growing as a poet. And maybe if I critique you, you might critique me, too.


----------



## Phil Istine

I'm assuming that non-consensual critique for challenge entries is acceptable then?
I'm happy for any of my work, good or bad, to receive it.  It doesn't matter if I like what's said or not - I need to up my game and I'm fine with thickening up my skin in order to do so.  What I'm less clear about is whether I ought to do that for others' challenge entries, even though my critiquing skills also need a major upgrade.
If challenge entry crit is to become the norm, I would feel more comfortable about it if given some prominence in the lead-in post on the challenge threads.  That way, I would never be supplying it to someone who is unaware that it might be given.
So, if it is going to happen, maybe a clean slate from next month?  I would be happy for mine to receive it, but cannot consent to this without identifying mine - also known as Catch 22  .
All 'ifs' of course as I don't want to second guess any decisions.

As an aside, I note with humour that the word 'gift' means 'poison' in German


----------



## ned

hello - an interesting discussion

if I read it right - the proposal is for judging of the monthly challenge entries to be posted in a seperate forum
after the voting scores, author ID (unless anonymous) and winner have been revealed.

seems to me, that if an author doesn't want criticism of their poem - then, they simply don't read the judging forum..
leaving the rest of us to perhaps learn something from the comments given.

but I feel that voting by one's peers is a stringent enough critique as it stands - succinct and unfettered with plattitudes.
and, if an author wants a more detailed critique of their entry, then can they not simply re-post it to another forum?

but judging entries after the event might be problematical - for it is bound to be influenced by the results.
if judging occurs before the results are revealed - then a judge runs the risk of appearing out of step with the rest of us.
 - essentially, voting and judging don't mix.

I reckon - leave things as they are, with the option for the author to repost their entry for critique after the vote.

my thrupence ha'penny worth
Ned


----------



## Firemajic

astroannie said:


> Well, the crybabies win this month.  My plate suddenly became overfull -- the fun things you know about (the forced upgrade to Win10) but there have been other RL issues that take me away from here to the extent that I don't have the time I feel I need to do proper critique for the number of pieces -- even if I limit it to the pieces on the open board.
> 
> I'm not going away.  This is not going to die.  I firmly believe that our WF challenges (both poetry and prose) should present our best work, and that, while we may choose not to revise the specific pieces we submit, we can learn from critique about issues that we have with our writing so that we may submit better work in the future.  I count myself in that *we *because I am still learning and growing as a poet. And maybe if I critique you, you might critique me, too.




CRYBABIES.....crybabies.... I guess I missed those posts, all I read were the posts where we were discussing and expressing the PRO's and CON's....


----------



## Phil Istine

This subject seems to have gone very quiet.

As it appears that critique is going to be provided, may I suggest this fact is given some prominence in the post that introduces the challenge?

It appears that critique may be provided before the voting is completed.
May I suggest it is delayed until after?


----------



## PiP

Phil Istine said:


> It appears that critique may be provided before the voting is completed.
> May I suggest it is delayed until after?



I agree, in the interests of fairness, critique should not be provided until voting has finished as it could potentially influence the way members vote. The Pip Challenge judging is a good example how we vary in opinions about a poem. Leave the monthly challenge for the voters to decide without being influenced either way. Once the poll has closed, if members want to offer their opinions on a poem (whether it's wanted of not) they can do so. 




astroannie said:


> Well, the crybabies win this month.



Sorry, what do you mean by this?


----------



## Darkkin

In actuality, all competition poems are still open for critique according to the Da Rulz as per Cran.  The voting on those threads is closed, but unlike the submission threads, the voting threads have not been locked so anyone who wants to take a crack at critiquing enteries has had ample time to do so.  As to opening critique after judging, I think that is more than fair.  Yes, critiquers get their chance without exerting undo influence on the voting.


----------



## Firemajic

I agree, after the voting poll is closed, open season on the poems and let the crits fall where they may..lol.... hahaa Maestro always says we need to have thick skin, if we are gonna be writers... there really is no other way to improve without Intelligent, concise feedback... Will I enter ?? In time, when I have regained my confidence...


----------



## Phil Istine

Darkkin said:


> In actuality, all competition poems are still open for critique according to the Da Rulz as per Cran.  The voting on those threads is closed, but unlike the submission threads, the voting threads have not been locked so anyone who wants to take a crack at critiquing enteries has had ample time to do so.  As to opening critique after judging, I think that is more than fair.  Yes, critiquers get their chance without exerting undo influence on the voting.



Personally, I wouldn't want to attempt critique on any challenge entries until the intro post states clearly that it may happen.  That way, nobody would be receiving critique (or feedback) unexpectedly.
I was a bit surprised to see that some would not want their pieces to receive critique, but I would wish to honour that.
Therefore, if I do attempt it, I would not be doing it until the June challenge, and only then if the intro post were altered accordingly.


----------



## Phil Istine

Firemajic said:


> I agree, after the voting poll is closed, open season on the poems and let the crits fall where they may..lol.... hahaa Maestro always says we need to have thick skin, if we are gonna be writers... there really is no other way to improve without Intelligent, concise feedback... Will I enter ?? In time, when I have regained my confidence...



Sorry to hear about your confidence levels Julia.
And yes, I do get it.  It's easy for me to understand that.
Personally, I find giving critique more daunting than the actual writing.


----------



## Darkkin

Phil, one of the easiest way to critique:  Listen to your instincts.  Chances are, you're right.  At its heart writing is organic, despite the technical restrictions people are wont to apply.

As to receiving critique, do I need it, yes.  Do I get it, not often simply because of what I do.  I don't write small and pithy.  I'm a thistle.  Big, spiked, and scary.


----------



## Firemajic

Phil Istine said:


> Sorry to hear about your confidence levels Julia.
> And yes, I do get it.  It's easy for me to understand that.
> Personally, I find giving critique more daunting than the actual writing.




Ok, how can we change these fears? I feel the same way, due to some bad backlash from crits I have given... 
1; I can't break down a poem, like DarKKin and astroannie... I just don't have that skill... 
2; I can't read all the subtle nuances of emotion like jenthepen can...
3; I often do not see the small things that makes such a big difference, like Ned does...
BUT, I can offer MY personal reaction to the poem... maybe that is enough.. maybe as a critic, WE need to develop thick skin...


----------



## Firemajic

Darkkin said:


> Phil, one of the easiest way to critique:  Listen to your instincts.  Chances are, you're right.  At its heart writing is organic, despite the technical restrictions people are wont to apply.
> 
> As to receiving critique, do I need it, yes.  Do I get it, not often simply because of what I do.  I don't write small and pithy.  I'm a thistle.  Big, spiked, and scary.




 Thistles are soft and delicate on the inside... the prickly outer shell protects a fragile seed ...


----------



## Darkkin

Firemajic said:


> BUT, I can offer MY personal reaction to the poem... maybe that is enough.. maybe as a critic, WE need to develop thick skin...



^^^^This is the most important factor in critique.  Honest, human reaction.  This is what makes your insight priceless, Juls. ^^^^


----------



## Phil Istine

Firemajic said:


> BUT, I can offer MY personal reaction to the poem... maybe that is enough.. maybe as a critic, WE need to develop thick skin...



How right you are, Julia.
I'll look in the supermarket for some skin thickening cream and a suit of armour


----------



## Phil Istine

Darkkin said:


> ^^^^This is the most important factor in critique.  Honest, human reaction.  This is what makes your insight priceless, Juls. ^^^^




It's alright for you turtles, you have a shell.


----------



## Darkkin

Phil Istine said:


> It's alright for you turtles, you have a shell.




_Holds out book:  Turtle Friending Made Easy._


----------



## Firemajic

Phil Istine said:


> How right you are, Julia.
> I'll look in the supermarket for some skin thickening cream and a suit of armour




 Go to CVS.... they give a "Poet's discount" on the 20 oz bottle..


----------



## Mutimir

Whoa anonymous posts for the challenge. And so much red in the thread...I'm scared haha


----------



## Phil Istine

"Echoes" is an excellent choice for a theme.
I'm a little disappointed that no mention was made in the intro post that works may receive critique - nor was there an indication of when that may happen in the voting process.
Not to worry, I'll do my (variable) best as ever, but I won't be making any faltering attempts to critique without a poet's consent.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

I've been under the weather and it completely slipped my mind. I'll come up with something and stuff it in there. Thanks for reminding me, Phil.


----------



## Phil Istine

Chester's Daughter said:


> I've been under the weather and it completely slipped my mind. I'll come up with something and stuff it in there. Thanks for reminding me, Phil.



Sorry to bug you when you already have bugs.  Hopefully, you are finding your way back to good health.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

*
Reminder:* Please remember that unless you otherwise indicate in your entry PM, your identity will be revealed upon the close of the poll. Thank you.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

The Future of our Challenge poll closes tomorrow at 7:15pm EST. Please endeavor to cast your vote as soon as possible. Many thanks.


----------



## PiP

Chester's Daughter said:


> The Future of our Challenge poll closes tomorrow at 7:15pm EST. Please endeavor to cast your vote as soon as possible. Many thanks.



Voted. thanks for the reminder, Lisa


----------



## Chesters Daughter

There's a mere five hours left to *vote* on whether or not challenge entries should remain anonymous.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

I am an incompetent idiot. I was having difficulties when I posted* In The Silver Twilight*, and I somehow managed to post a portion of the piece twice. That said, I would appreciate if everyone would read the piece *again* in its proper format. My sincere apologies to all, and especially to the poet of the entry. I vow to be more diligent henceforth. Thank you.


----------



## Phil Istine

Chester's Daughter said:


> I am an incompetent idiot. I was having difficulties when I posted* In The Silver Twilight*, and I somehow managed to post a portion of the piece twice. That said, I would appreciate if everyone would read the piece *again* in its proper format. My sincere apologies to all, and especially to the poet of the entry. I vow to be more diligent henceforth. Thank you.



I just wish to point out that there's a huge difference between 'I made a mistake' and 'I am an incompetent idiot'.
Thank you for going to the trouble of re-posting all these poems.  It is appreciated, and maybe I don't say it enough.


----------



## aj47

Phil Istine said:


> I just wish to point out that there's a huge difference between 'I made a mistake' and 'I am an incompetent idiot'.
> Thank you for going to the trouble of re-posting all these poems.  It is appreciated, and maybe I don't say it enough.



What Phil said.  I was rushed so didn't do more than hit the *Thanks* button, but that's where my head was at.  Goofs happen.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Thank you both, truly, but I must maintain my assertion that I am an incompetent idiot. In this instance, the mistake was one hundred percent avoidable. It is my reponsibility to post everyone's entries exactly as I receive them, and up until this point, I've been able to do that. With the entry in question, it was copying and pasting exactly as I received it, but when I hit submit, the font was enlarged and altered and the piece became bold. In an effort to remedy it, I tried about ten different things, and in doing so ended up repeating a portion of the post. What's unforgivable is that I did not catch my mistake and that was due to incompetence on my part. Normally, I recheck everything, but because my sister was waiting for me downstairs in the car, I ran off without applying the fine tooth comb. Given the fact that I'd played with it so much, I should have known much better, and that makes me an idiot. I am entrusted with everyone's work, and it is my duty to treat it with respect and make sure it appears as the entrant intends. I have learned a very valuable lesson here, and I assure everyone that there will not be a repeat performance of this nature.

Hugs for Phil and Annie, your support is appreciated beyond measure.


----------



## aj47

I have some experience with this, from doing the scores for CoF.  There's a trick. Instead of copy/pasting from the message, copy/paste the quoted stuff in the reply box at the bottom, then take the 





> tags off.
> 
> That totally preserves the formatting as far as I've seen.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

I find that copying from the reply box eliminates most irregularities, and I tried that with this one, but for whatever reason, it did not work. First time ever it didn't. Thanks J, wish I'd have asked you back when. I stumbled upon that little gem quite by accident and only after multiple hair pulling curse fests, lol.


----------



## Phil Istine

Participation in the challenge seems to have dropped off a bit in the last two months.  OK, so most forum users live in  the northern hemisphere and it's summer here, so I guess people are  going out more.
But I also wonder if it's to do with the possibility of receiving critique.
No way of knowing for sure without asking, I suppose.


----------



## aj47

I suppose when the names are revealed, you can ask whoever's name you don't see.


----------



## -xXx-

i am more likely to post (on suggested theme) in the poetry thread.
feedback is offered there, but it tends toward the way it was interpreted
by the reader, as opposed to being fit to a conventional scoring rebus.
i participated in the challenge to see if i could write on theme
within the time constraints and to share my perspective with others.
i don't aspire to be noteworthy in 400 years.


----------



## midnightpoet

I had a last minute inspiration, wrote it in fifteen minutes.  I don't have hope for it, but who knows.:grin:

Edit: think I messed up


----------



## Chesters Daughter

midnightpoet said:


> I had a last minute inspiration, wrote it in fifteen minutes.  I don't have hope for it, but who knows.:grin:
> 
> Edit: think I messed up



Yes dear, ya kinda did, but no biggie and mostly my bad. I should have locked the thread promptly at seven as is my wont, and then you wouldn't have been able to post it at all. I've removed it to avoid confusion, but we have a copy intact, and if you'd like me to send it to you, please PM me.

Now that the challenges are anonymous, any pieces posted directly to the thread are immediately disqualified, but the entrant may enter again with a different piece by sending it to me for posting.You were also a wee bit too late, nothing past seven is allowable, but again, I should have been on time locking the thread. For the record, I check my inbox before locking the thread to make sure any last minute entries are accounted for.


----------



## midnightpoet

It's okay, I rushed it - shouldn't have.  I'm good at messing up though - just ask my wife.:icon_cheesygrin:
I'll probably put it in the poetry thread.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

There are a mere 20.5 hours remaining to submit your entry for this month's challenge. You have to be in it to win it! Tick tock...don't be thwarted by the unstoppable clock.


----------



## Phil Istine

That was weird.  I didn't realise that memento could also be momento.  It looks like it might be one of those U.S. vs. Brit English things.  Indeed, the software I'm using is flagging momento as an error, but I have a Brit English spell checker installed.


----------



## Olly Buckle

uno momento por favor. Spanish. A moment please
Memento mori Latin.  Re*mem*ber death
Memory is from the same root I think.


----------



## Phil Istine

Olly Buckle said:


> uno momento por favor. Spanish. A moment please
> Memento mori Latin.  Re*mem*ber death
> Memory is from the same root I think.



That was also my first thought about how momento would be used, but I'm a guy who recently called a poem "pared", partly because it is Spanish/Mexican for wall.

The online dictionary I use gives momento as:



> noun, plural momentos, momentoes.
> 1.               memento.
> 
> 
> Usage note
> 
> 
> See memento.



and memento as what I would normally expect.
The fact that it links the two recognises that momento is a less-used way of spelling memento; if it were just a straight spelling error, it would offer alternative word suggestions.

I hadn't considered the mem- root word but that does make sense.


----------



## ned

hello - 

sorry, all this confusion is my fault - my prompt posted to CD was a typo
I meant 'mementos' and have PMed CD to see if the prompt can be changed before
any entries are submitted.

momento to memento - pronto!
Ned


----------



## ned

I have posted a note on the challege thread - explaining that the prompt should read 'mementos'

before any Spanish slanted poems are posted...

this is how rubbish I am with prompts - I can't even spell them right!


----------



## Phil Istine

ned said:


> I have posted a note on the challege thread - explaining that the prompt should read 'mementos'
> 
> before any Spanish slanted poems are posted...
> 
> this is how rubbish I am with prompts - I can't even spell them right!



Thanks for clarifying that Ned.  Hey, we've all done it, I'm sure.  One of my better ones was about a pubic sign (not on this forum).


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Ay! Que lastima! Yo soy muy mala! I should have caught that. It felt awkward, but I was preoccupied. Bad Lisa. It's fixed.

I shall be refraining from any further forages into the forest. Any other day, I pop in and out, the one day I really needed to tend to something, and for the first time in years, I was completely off grid. And it was very pleasant. Thank you for stepping in as you knew I would be gone for the day, ned. Muchas gracias buen senor.


----------



## ned

my fault entirely CD, you democratically go along with the promp, whatever -

this challenge is tough enough withoutb a Spanish word prompt! 

so, mementos, half the business of poetry in the long run.

cheers
Ned


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Most of you probably realize I jumped the gun and made a mess of the challenge. My infinite apologies which are sorely insufficient compensation for such a huge mistake. I've removed my boo-boos for the time being, and I've again hidden the results and EXTENDED the voting time until the 26th at 7:20pm EST. I know that some people are now aware of who wrote what, and where the poll stands, but we used to be privy to that information and the challenge did not implode when we were. I cannot stress enough how remorseful I am at ruining this challenge and beg the forgiveness of every entrant, voter and member. While I am currently significantly ill, it is a paltry excuse for this error.


----------



## Kevin

"...significantly..."? Oh no, young lady, that is not permissible. As for the rest, I'm sure everyone here agrees you have infinite credits... 'To error is human.'


----------



## The Defenestrator

Get well soon CD


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Where is everyone this month?


----------



## Firemajic

Chester's Daughter said:


> Where is everyone this month?




I know where the procrastinating poets are hiding... let's go huntin'... 



BUT, in my defense... I have a poem prepared, and while I think it fits the prompt... I don't know if anyone ELSE will think it fits the prompt...
It IS an intriguing prompt, and I really thought all the poets would be excited about it...


----------



## Phil Istine

Chester's Daughter said:


> Where is everyone this month?



NaNoWriMo.  I might try something out though to give my head a break.  See how it goes.


----------



## midnightpoet

The prose and poem contests have been quiet lately, maybe everyone is hard at work on their WIP's.  :???:


----------



## Darkkin

I've submitted pieces to both PiP and Monthly...Point of fact, I feel horrendously guilty if I don't...:topsy_turvy:  Because how can you encourage others to try, (e.g. critique), if you don't actually take the time to do so yourself?  I know I'm not the best writer, but I'm also not the worst.  To whit, no one has ever gotten up and walked out or promptly burst into tears over something I'd written.  So on that note, all good things, all good thing..._*And come on folks, we need Answers!


*_Well, beyond those of 42...


----------



## aj47

I didn't do the PiP because I had to write a poem for class.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Thank you, guys.:congratulatory:


----------



## Phil Istine

I see that the ongoing voting numbers are showing up in the poetry challenge.  Has that been altered intentionally or is it an oversight?


----------



## Chesters Daughter

It's a malfunction. I set it for hidden until the poll closed. I'll go see if I can fix it.

Thank you, dear.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Phil, please do me a solid and take a gander, it should be remedied. The only thing I think could have happened is that when I went in to edit the typo I made in your title, the result options reverted to the default setting which is show results. At least I now know to make sure it's as I ticked it the next time I need to edit. Thanks again, love.


----------



## Phil Istine

Chester's Daughter said:


> Phil, please do me a solid and take a gander, it should be remedied. The only thing I think could have happened is that when I went in to edit the typo I made in your title, the result options reverted to the default setting which is show results. At least I now know to make sure it's as I ticked it the next time I need to edit. Thanks again, love.



Yes, it's fixed now.  Only one person had voted (not I) when I noticed.  Thanks for sorting it out, CD.


----------



## aj47

If you click on the button to view the results, it will show you how many people have voted, but not how they voted. Is that what you mean?


----------



## Chesters Daughter

I believe it's always shown the number of voters but not the vote tally for non-members as well as members. If I'm incorrect, whip me repeatedly with some leather enlightenment. When I edited the poll options earlier today, it reset options to default settings which in all my glorious awareness I neglected to catch. As long as where the votes are being cast remains unseen' the number of voters being revealed is no biggie.


----------



## Phil Istine

Yes, the initial glitch showed how many votes had been cast for each poem.  One vote had been cast for three poems (I won't name which ones) as one person had voted.  The number of people who have voted is always showing and is not a problem.


----------



## Phil Istine

So, nine entries and just eight voters.  Although an advocate of the right to abstain in a political election, something about those numbers in a poetry challenge makes me feel less than comfortable as abstaining could, theoretically, push one's own poem into a more favourable position.  Now, I'm not saying that someone would abstain for that reason as there are any number of reasons for it happening (technical problems, an unexpected real-life disaster etc.).  However, the indications are that two participating poets failed to vote (I say two because Ned didn't enter a poem and it looks like he probably voted).
So I say come on people, get into the spirit of the thing (pretty please).

I wouldn't want there to be a rule saying that a participating poet must submit a valid three votes, because I would hope that this would be a given.
I'll crawl back under my rock now.  Don't crush me.


----------



## PiP

*raises hand and hangs head in shame* ouch... I meant to vote but time ran away with me. 

Hands pointy stick to Phil...


----------



## Phil Istine

PiP said:


> *raises hand and hangs head in shame* ouch... I meant to vote but time ran away with me.
> 
> Hands pointy stick to Phil...



Trust me to accidentally home in on one of the hardest working people on the forum.
The embarrassment is mine


----------



## PiP

No, Phil. You were absolutely right. I should have taken some time out in support of our poets. A beating is due and I submit ... hehehe :lol:


----------



## Phil Istine

PiP said:


> No, Phil. You were absolutely right. I should have taken some time out in support of our poets. A beating is due and I submit ... hehehe :lol:



Love the imagery


----------



## PiP

Perhaps a limerick is in order?


----------



## Phil Istine

PiP said:


> Perhaps a limerick is in order?



Like this?:

  There was a young lady called Carole
  who gave it all with both barrels
  with a big pointy stick
  and flicking her whip,
  while wearing her leather apparel.


----------



## PiP

Absolutely BRILLIANT, Phil! I am rocking with laughter. You weren't meant to tell other members I wore leather and had a whip!


----------



## Cran

PiP said:


> No, Phil. You were absolutely right. I should have taken some time out in support of our poets. A beating is due and I submit ... hehehe :lol:


Hey! Get in line! I should get the first beating ... especially after my regular Tuesday mornings were cancelled.


----------



## Gumby

_*Guilty*

joins line for a well deserved beating...

_


----------



## midnightpoet

Okay, twenty lashes with a wet noodle.  We are all guilty of something, mainly just being human.:joker:


----------



## Firemajic

midnightpoet said:


> Okay, twenty lashes with a wet noodle.  We are all guilty of something, mainly just being human.:joker:





I definitely have you in my sights, midnight... ssssssnap..... NOT with a wet noodle either...


----------



## midnightpoet

You still got your studded black leather outfit, 4" pumps and whip?  I know all about your dungeon, remember - so watch it.  The dominatrix from heck indeed.:devilish:


----------



## Firemajic

midnightpoet said:


> You still got your studded black leather outfit, 4" pumps and whip?  I know all about your dungeon, remember - so watch it.  The dominatrix from heck indeed.:devilish:




:roll:... LMAO.... You have mistaken me for PiP....  She "borrowed" my stuff...:icon_bounce::lol:... soooo YOU watchit....


----------



## PiP

What...Whaaat? I just dish out _cookies... I'm a convent girl and I know nothing about such things...
Besides, I'd be mistaken for a landed whale if ?I? wore tight black leather. :shock:_


----------



## Gumby

PiP said:


> What...Whaaat? I just dish out _cookies... I'm a convent girl and I know nothing about such things...
> Besides, I'd be mistaken for a landed whale if ?I? wore tight black leather. :shock:_



Hey, big girls can rock black leather, too. Very much so.


----------



## PiP

Now, now Miss Gumby. Remember Midnight suffers with blood pressure:icon_bounce:


----------



## Firemajic

PiP said:


> Now, now Miss Gumby. Remember Midnight suffers with blood pressure:icon_bounce:


8-[


hahaaa, yeah, and it is time for him to be in his recliner, with cookies and booooze... pretending like he is writin his next poem.... :roll:


----------



## PiP

Firemajic said:


> 8-[
> 
> 
> pretending like he is writin his next poem.... :roll:



Yikes, that's what I should be doing. I am going to attempt a sonnet for the next Pip challenge...


----------



## midnightpoet

I'm at a loss for words...


----------



## Firemajic

PiP said:


> Yikes, that's what I should be doing. I am going to attempt a sonnet for the next Pip challenge...






Sonnet!!!! Ok, YOU were the one who ate my special Brownies... Sonnet.... gasp....


----------



## Firemajic

midnightpoet said:


> I'm at a loss for words...






BUSTED!! I KNEW he was not writing..." loss for words"... I KNEW it..............................whatever...


----------



## PiP

Firemajic said:


> Sonnet!!!! Ok, YOU were the one who ate my special Brownies... Sonnet.... gasp....



You gotta end the year on a BANG!!

Nothing ventured nothing gained... or is it there is no gain without pain?

What form are you going to try?


----------



## Firemajic

Huh?? Meee???? I thought I would scavenge through your office and "BORROW" something.................. so....... yeah...


----------



## midnightpoet

Fire, I'll have you know I've already written a poem for December - whether I'll use or not I don't know.  Not a sonnet, though.  Or anything to do with iambic pentameter (I'm with Darkkin on this one).  I do promise to lay off your brownies, though.:cookie:


----------



## Firemajic

midnightpoet said:


> Fire, I'll have you know I've already written a poem for December - whether I'll use or not I don't know.  Not a sonnet, though.  Or anything to do with iambic pentameter (I'm with Darkkin on this one).  I do promise to lay off your brownies, though.:cookie:





I seriously don't know what I am going to do... I have not been "inspired" for a while... maybe I need to lay off the brownies....


----------



## Cran

Firemajic said:


> I seriously don't know what I am going to do... I have not been "inspired" for a while... maybe I need to lay off the brownies....


You're kidding, right? 

How can you not be inspired by some hot brownies like these: 
*
[IMAGE AND LINK REMOVED FOR BREACH OF **NO PORN** RULE]*


----------



## Firemajic

Cran said:


> You're kidding, right?
> 
> How can you not be inspired by some hot brownies like these:
> *
> [IMAGE AND LINK REMOVED FOR BREACH OF **NO PORN** RULE]*





&^$&^%#**&^&##  because I then tried several times to %#$%# and could not.... hahaaaahhaaa..... anyway... WTF... ^#$%# I thought you %#%%$#$...................... sooooo.... Thanks for NOTHING, Cran....


----------



## Cran

Yes, but I have to come up for air sometimes. Besides, the holidays are over and, unlike me, the lady can't take her office home; she actually has to go there with hair and clothing unruffled.

I'd forward hard copies to your address in discreet plain paper packaging, but I've already been warned by the FBI about sharing their best examples.

You'll just have to take the thought for the deed. 



Serious advice to anyone: *Take some time to please yourself. *


----------



## Firemajic

Cran said:


> Yes, but I have to come up for air sometimes. Besides, the holidays are over and, unlike me, the lady can't take her office home; she actually has to go there with hair and clothing unruffled.
> 
> I'd forward hard copies to your address in discreet plain paper packaging, but I've already been warned by the FBI about sharing their best examples.
> 
> You'll just have to take the thought for the deed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Serious advice to anyone:      *****Take some time to please yourself*. *


 now THAT... is a quotable quote...


----------



## The Fantastical

Is there any style requirements for the December Challenge? There wasn't any mentioned but I thought that I would ask


----------



## aj47

Do not be confused by the folks bringing PiP challenge talk over here.   .... The PiP challenge is a completely separate deal and has different requirements every month.  

This challenge here has no style, length, etc. requirements--it just has to be a response to the prompt.  And it's anonymous.  So you don't post your piece, you send it to Chester's Daughter and she posts it anonymously.  Then, people vote and a winner is declared.


----------



## Firemajic

The Fantastical said:


> Is there any style requirements for the December Challenge? There wasn't any mentioned but I thought that I would ask





The new December Pip Challenge thread has been posted in the Pip Challenge board..
any questions or concerns can be sent to me via a PM, or posted in the Pip challenge discussion thread...


----------



## The Fantastical

I new that it was different from the Pip challenge... just didn't know if there was more I needed to know other than what the little blurb thingy said


----------



## Dictarium

Haven't posted on the site in a while. The December LM prompt is a bit gimmicky for me, though if I can stretch the interpretation in such a way that I feel comfortable with it I may try it out. For the time being though, the Poetry Challenge prompt seems much less narrow so I thought I'd give it a try. It'd be cool to maybe get a feel for who the standouts are in this comp. I started to sort of figure that out in the LM when I was still participating and it was getting kinda fun to see the sort of marquee posters submit every month and see just the incredibly high quality posts come from it.

Anyway, good luck to everyone this month!


----------



## The Fantastical

It is always fun people watching... be it in a coffee shop over a nice cuppa or online. People are just interesting creatures.


----------



## Darkkin

The voting poll results are currently visible...


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Not anymore they're not. This is the second time that I ticked the appropriate hide results option, double checked it to make sure I did so, hit submit only to have it revert back to show results.  I had no way to know until someone voted. I'll have to go back into the poll once I submit henceforth to ensure my choice of tick doesn't go a traveling again. Thanks dear Darkkin. There's clearly a sneaky gremlin glitch at play. I'll kick it upstairs for further investigation.


----------



## The Fantastical

Oh! Well then I will pretend that I didn't see the results when I voted  lol


----------



## Phil Istine

Chester's Daughter said:


> Not anymore they're not. This is the second time that I ticked the appropriate hide results option, double checked it to make sure I did so, hit submit only to have it revert back to show results.  I had no way to know until someone voted. I'll have to go back into the poll once I submit henceforth to ensure my choice of tick doesn't go a traveling again. Thanks dear Darkkin. There's clearly a sneaky gremlin glitch at play. I'll kick it upstairs for further investigation.



I've no idea if this is the issue, but in the distant past (not on here) I have encountered tick boxes where the tick moves when using the mouse's scroll wheel.
Another possibility:  Is there an 'apply' button or similar (such as 'save changes') that may be just off-screen?
I have no access to that screen so can only guess.


----------



## Dictarium

@Firemajic

I was just looking through your ribbons or awards or whatever they're called: did you win three Poetry Challenges in a row back in 2014?


----------



## Firemajic

Dictarium said:


> @Firemajic
> 
> I was just looking through your ribbons or awards or whatever they're called: did you win three Poetry Challenges in a row back in 2014?





Yes...


----------



## Dictarium

impressive.

e: any particular reason or were you just on an especially hot streak that Fall? haha.


----------



## Firemajic

Dictarium said:


> impressive.
> 
> e: any particular reason or were you just on an especially hot streak that Fall? haha.




Thank you.. Ned has also won 3 in a row..


----------



## Firemajic

Dictarium said:


> e: any particular reason or were you just on an especially hot streak that Fall? haha.




I am still mystified... lol ....


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Phil Istine said:


> I've no idea if this is the issue, but in the distant past (not on here) I have encountered tick boxes where the tick moves when using the mouse's scroll wheel.
> Another possibility:  Is there an 'apply' button or similar (such as 'save changes') that may be just off-screen?
> I have no access to that screen so can only guess.



Oh yea the little devil moves sometimes with the scroll, but I'm aware of it so I keep checking. Last thing I do before clicking submit is to make sure the proper boxes are all ticked. Something other is amiss. I'll be kicking this up into Cran's most capable hands, even gremlins tremble and flee in his awesome presence.


----------



## Cran

Chester's Daughter said:


> Oh yea the little devil moves sometimes with the scroll, but I'm aware of it so I keep checking. Last thing I do before clicking submit is to make sure the proper boxes are all ticked. Something other is amiss. I'll be kicking this up into Cran's most capable hands, even gremlins tremble and flee in his awesome presence.



I wish!

I'll have to call in our tech guru. The vBulletin default polls template is to show all results. The hide results option was a vB owner hack which was added during a previous administration, and which seems to have glitched so that posted polls have reverted to the default. More than one hack is available, but which best suits our needs and will install without glitching something else is a question for the big guy.


----------



## Ariel

Cran said:


> I wish!
> 
> I'll have to call in our tech guru. The vBulletin default polls template is to show all results. The hide results option was a vB owner hack which was added during a previous administration, and which seems to have glitched so that posted polls have reverted to the default. More than one hack is available, but which best suits our needs and will install without glitching something else is a question for the big guy.



Delegation is a symptom of capability. You know what your limits are and can find the right person for the job.


----------



## Cran

amsawtell said:


> Delegation is a symptom of capability. You know what your limits are and can find the right person for the job.


Yep. That's why you're on my team - the right person for the job.

Most of the year, I get to take it easy and bask in the glory of the best forum staff on the net. It's good to be da Boss.


----------



## Firemajic

Cran said:


> Yep. That's why you're on my team - the right person for the job.
> 
> Most of the year, I get to take it easy and bask in the glory of the best forum staff on the net. It's good to be da Boss.





It IS gooood to be "DA BOSS"... BUT, only a good Boss could say that.... right? Maybe...  :cool2:


----------



## Cran

Kevin has tested the poll and reports that it is only visible to admins, mods, and the poll starter. But we'll look further into including a definite signal for when the hide results is in effect.


----------



## Cran

*I have removed some comments from this thread which had no place here and added nothing valuable to the ongoing discussions which take place here. I apologise to those members who cannot access their posts, but it's done. Over. We move on.*


----------



## Cran

*Follow up on poll glitch*



			
				Kevin_L said:
			
		

> At the top it says the results are hidden.  See the images one shows the results  are hidden and the other doesn't.  Also the image of the settings when creating  or editing a poll.  Let me know if there are still issues.


----------



## Phil Istine

Oops!  No peeking.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

*VERY IMPORTANT NOTICE*

The new year is affording the Challenge a facelift. Beginning January 2017, the rules will be as follows:

*ENTRIES WILL NO LONGER BE ANONYMOUS, *which means entrants will post their work directly to either the public or secure threads. Those using the secure board are responsible for linking their post to the public thread. If you need assistance doing so, please PM me and I will help you.

*ENTRIES WILL STILL BE SUBJECT TO CRITIQUE WITHIN THE VOTING THREAD, *but with the elimination of anonymity, any critique may be promptly responded to by the recipient within the voting thread. 
*
VOTERS MAY NOW VOTE FOR AS MANY ENTRIES AS THEY SEE FIT, SAVE FOR THEIR OWN. VOTING FOR YOURSELF WILL RESULT IN YOUR ENTRY BEING DISQUALIFIED. 
**
THE POLL WILL CONTINUE TO REMAIN HIDDEN FROM VIEW UNTIL IT CLOSES.*

All other rules will remain the same. And please don't freak, I don't expect you to retain all the changes. The opening posts of each Challenge thread will be explicit and easy to follow. Promise.

If you have any questions, please do not be shy.


----------



## Darkkin

It's fair, both sides, the readers, the writers on equal footing.  Because if one considers it, critique is about give and take, the reader's observations, the writer's motivations.  Decent writing is defensible.  Good writing, even more so.  Thorough critique, same story.  Has the writer argued their case sufficiently, has the reader supported their observations?  It makes one think a little bit more, push just a little further.  More often than not, the reader's observations are spot on, but sometimes the writer's are too. And as writers, we know better than anyone else what is behind a piece, the elemental why.

Up to this point, that chance had been denied to the writers.  Granted up until this juncture, it really wasn't an issue because the need to refute hadn't presented itself.  Poems were open to critique, but the writers, facing DQ, had no opportunity to voice a word in the defense of their work.  The issue remained in the shadows, observations rendered inert.  

Writers needed to stay silent even when a hammer is brought to bear.  Someone telling you, you don't mean that, you mean this.  Telling, no one asking why.  A simple assumption, something everyone at some point in time has been guilty of...An action most of us have also been on the receiving end of.  It isn't a comfortable feeling.  The age old struggle of showing verses telling on a fundamental level.  And as a reader, I like it when people show, not tell.

No arguments, no explanations, no defense.  You are shoved back, knocked down, and while there is relevance in what has been said, it is not the whole story, it is just one perspective.  And granted I know my perspective is as screwed up as they come, isn't worth much, but it, everyone's deserves a chance to be defended.

All I can say is thank you for giving the writers a chance, their voices...


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Darkkin has made very valid points, but I must request that everyone remember that the choice to go anonymous was decided by the membership by popular vote.

Critique finally making its way back into the voting thread is a wonderful thing to behold, but give and take in a timely fashion is essential for all of us to truly benefit from it, which is why we've ditched anonymity. We're hoping that with that decision, there will be a flow of interaction to assist us all in understanding what makes a winning entry, and how to better strive for the kind of excellence that is worthy of the Laureate. We can assist each other as we compete, and as a whole further our craft as a community. 

For far too long we've announced winners with no indication whatsoever in the voting thread as to why the winning entry has won, or why others have been passed over. This is an excellent opportunity for us to learn and grow together, which was actually the purpose of the Challenge in the first place. We are hoping the changes in store will open up avenues to assist us all in the pursuit of improvement as the originators of the Challenge intended. May the clean slate of a new year aid us in this endeavor. It's time we make some history together. Thank you.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!

Our new, and hopefully improved, challenge is up and awaiting your efforts:

http://www.writingforums.com/threads/169520-January-Challenge-quot-Control-quot


If I've over complicated the opening post, please let me know and I'll have back at it.

Happy posting and best of luck with your entries!


----------



## Ell337

I'd love to do this, but I'm so utterly confused with two identical threads, but in different parts of the forum and then a discussion in another thread and you have to do what with what to be eligible for critique. My head is spinning.


----------



## sas

Ell.....Most of my poems I do not want to be accessible to search engines. I have this grandiose idea that I might be published. Yes, I am an idiot. 
So, if you post directly in the Poetry Challenge your poem might not be able to be published elsewhere. They want you to put a link here, on this thread, to have your poem post in the Challenge. I've no idea how to do that, so will only post those poems in Challenge I don't plan on submitting for publication. You might want to find out how to do a Link on yours. Good Luck.


----------



## H.Brown

To link one poem from one thread to another, you can submit the poem in the secure thread then copy and past the url from your submission page into a reply on the non secure thread, that is how I have done it in the COF competition.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

It was just necessary for me to move three posts from the secure Challenge thread here to the Bistro. *The Challenge threads are for entries only. All discussion/questions should be posted here in the Bistro. *
Those instructions are in the opening posts of both threads.

Since there seems to be a bit of confusion regarding the multiple threads and where and how to post what, I shall endeavor to make it clearer. There are two threads because one is public and accessible to search engines, and the other is secure and inaccessible to search engines as well as non-members to protect your first rights should you later decide to submit a piece to a publisher.

If you post on the secure board you must link your post to the main thread so that all entries are gathered in the same place. If members had to skip back and forth between threads, there's a chance an entry may be missed which would simply be a shame. Thanks to astroannie, bless her soul, detailed instructions on how to link your post may be accessed _*here*_.

I've also offered my services to assist anyone who needs help with linking in both opening posts:



Chester's Daughter said:


> As previously announced, anonymous entries have been abolished, therefore, entrants must post their own entries in the public thread, or if you desire to protect first rights, please post your entry here in the the workshop thread, and then post a link to it in the *public thread*. *Failure to do so runs the risk of your entry being disqualifie**d*, so if you require assistance with the task, please PM *me*, and I will gladly help you.



If you're having any woe, just click on the underlined me and it will take you to my profile page so you may PM me, and I'll either assist you with linking your piece yourself, or link it for you.

And in closing, *all entries are eligible for critique.*

I hope this has been helpful, but if anyone has any questions regarding these issues or others, please just post them here. Thank you.


----------



## rcallaci

I just saw Annie's entry in the poetry challenge and as usual it was quite delicious. Her Senryu's are second to none ---she just does it so right- with irony, humor and satiric wit. Annie and I are right now judging the other poetry challenge dealing with Haiku and her senryu just shows us her mastery of the form. Read it and see if you understand its full meaning---it's a little serious but it's also a hoot. -a loving middle finger-


----------



## Nellie

rcallaci said:


> I just saw Annie's entry in the poetry challenge and as usual it was quite delicious. Her Senryu's are second to none ---she just does it so right- with irony, humor and satiric wit. Annie and I are right now judging the other poetry challenge dealing with Haiku and her senryu just shows us her mastery of the form.



I did read it! It DOES have a title, (untitled-January). In my haiku I got zinged for "Nellie's Haiku". I didn't consider that as a title to my haiku because I KNOW haikus DO NOT have titles!! So tell me, maestro, what's the difference? How DOES one let the reader know whether it's a haiku or senryu without saying so at the top of the poem?  It's all opinion that matters, isn't it? Plus being able to count syllables? 

And didn't you just contradict yourself here?:



> Read it and see if you understand its full meaning---it's a little serious but it's also a hoot. -a loving middle finger-




Is it too serious or is it satirical in nature?


----------



## PiP

rcallaci said:


> I just saw Annie's entry in the poetry challenge and as usual it was quite delicious. Her Senryu's are second to none ---she just does it so right- with irony, humor and satiric wit. Annie and I are right now judging the other poetry challenge dealing with Haiku and her senryu just shows us her mastery of the form. Read it and see if you understand its full meaning---it's a little serious but it's also a hoot. -a loving middle finger-



Sorry, Bob... you've got me... I did not understand it.


----------



## PiP

Nellie said:


> I did read it! It DOES have a title, (untitled-January). In my haiku I got zinged for "Nellie's Haiku". I didn't consider that as a title to my haiku because I KNOW haikus DO NOT have titles!!



Hi Nellie, you didn't get zinged. You were credited with 5 points.  Those who included a title received zero or 1 point. At least that is my understanding


----------



## aj47

It needed something to put in the poll.  On the off-chance there were other "untitled" entries this month (the entry period isn't over) I tried to make it easy for CD to pollify it.  Feel free to think less of it for having that in brackets (they don't show in the activity stream (when you click on the What's New tab) which is why I did it that way).


----------



## rcallaci

Nellie said:


> I did read it! It DOES have a title, (untitled-January). In my haiku I got zinged for "Nellie's Haiku". I didn't consider that as a title to my haiku because I KNOW haikus DO NOT have titles!! So tell me, maestro, what's the difference? How DOES one let the reader know whether it's a haiku or senryu without saying so at the top of the poem?  It's all opinion that matters, isn't it? Plus being able to count syllables?
> 
> And didn't you just contradict yourself here?:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it too serious or is it satirical in nature?



No I did not contradict myself--all satire has serious undertones some more than others ---i this case I saw a serious element.

As you've been told annie did not mark you off for your non title--Nellie Haiku is an appropriate use and annie marked it so.

Haiku and Senryu are quite easy to differentiate and for me I use Haiku as an umbrella term as well which encompasses, haiku, senryu and tanka, they all use the same tools with different emphasis. And it not just about the syllable count for haiku can be 4-3-3 -4-5-4  etc. But for the purpose of the Japanese format it's 5-7-5 and if you don't agree to the discipline of counting syllables in haiku   than choose a form where syllable counting doesn't matter.


----------



## Nellie

rcallaci said:


> Haiku and Senryu are quite easy to differentiate and for me I use Haiku as an umbrella term as well which encompasses, haiku, senryu and tanka, they all use the same tools with different emphasis. And it not just about the syllable count for haiku can be 4-3-3 -4-5-4  etc. But for the purpose of the Japanese format it's 5-7-5 and if you don't agree to the discipline of counting syllables in haiku   than choose a form where syllable counting doesn't matter.



Here's the definition *I* use to write "haiku/senryu". It's from the International Haiku Network. You can use yours. There are many different opinions on this subject.  I use the 5-7-5 format as a guide, not always in my senryu/haiku. 



> What are Haiku?
> 
> Haiku is a form of Japanese poetry, consisting of 17 morae (or _on_), in three metrical phrases of 5, 7 and 5 morae respectively.  Haiku typically contain a _kigo_, or seasonal reference, and a_ kireji, _or verbal _caesura _(cutting word).
> English-language haiku poets think of haiku as a Japanese form of poetry generally (but not always) consisting of 17 syllables, usually within three lines, with 5, 7 and 5 syllables.
> Most haiku writers prefer poems that _refer to nature and social events,_ but some of them don’t always place an exacting seasonal word in the poem. Furthermore, a few of them write haiku composed on one or two lines in less than 17 syllables.  Currently the majority of haiku are written in 11 short syllables in a 3-5-3 format.
> 
> 
> And Senryu?
> 
> Senryu is a Japanese form of short poetry similar to haiku in construction: three lines with 17 or fewer morae (or _on_) in total._  However, senryu tend to be about human foibles while haiku tend to be about nature, and senryu are often cynical or darkly humorous while haiku are more serious. _Unlike haiku, senryu do not include a _kireji _or verbal _caesura _(cutting word), and do not generally include a _kigo_, or seasonal word.
> _It is often said that both haiku and senryu can be funny, but that if it’s funny, it’s probably senryu._  Both haiku and senryu can be about nature, but if it’s about nature, it’s probably a haiku.  In addition, both haiku and senryu can be about nature or human nature.  Both haiku and senryu can be serious or humorous/satirical.  A serious poem about nature is certainly a haiku.  And a funny/satirical poem about human nature is certainly a senryu.


----------



## rcallaci

PiP said:


> Sorry, Bob... you've got me... I did not understand it.



Meanings are very subjective and what I see may not be the authors intent at all which still doesn't negate the fact that is is a good senryu. The fact that I saw meaning in my interpretation and you felt none just shows how a simple form can be quite hard to fathom. 

_hand-waving her sock_- is waving the white flag- a surrender 

_reaching out to the forum_
_to pat my own back_--she had to apologize and recapitulate to the forces that saw her as an arrogant bully and who have misinterpreted her motives. But she is still who she is- so she gives a loving middle finger to those who misconstrued her intentions.  

A lot can be said in a few words - Now let me state this is how I took the meaning this does not mean what annie believes or if they were the senryu's intention. .


----------



## PiP

> rcallaci said:
> 
> 
> 
> Meanings are very subjective and what I see may not be the authors intent at all which still doesn't negate the fact that is is a good senryu. The fact that I saw meaning in my interpretation and you felt none just shows how a simple form can be quite hard to fathom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Overall, I find the use of metaphors difficult to translate ... I keep trying and plodding away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _hand-waving her sock_- is waving the white flag- a surrender
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I was thinking sock-puppet!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _reaching out to the forum_
> _to pat my own back_--she had to apologize and recapitulate to the forces that saw her as an arrogant bully and who have misinterpreted her motives. But she is still who she is- so she gives a loving middle finger to those who misconstrued her intentions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A loving middle finger :shock: LOL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A lot can be said in a few words
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is why I find the form so fascinating.
> 
> Thanks, Bob
Click to expand...


----------



## rcallaci

Wow I like the sock puppets=changes the whole meaning--

she wipes away those sock puppets and throws them in cyberspace and pats her back for good work done

that works too


----------



## clark

This is my first visit to The Bard's Bistro, which confuses me (both readings of the misplaced modifier apply). What might I gain by being here?  Where am I?  Does one post poems here (my pretensions to grandeur prohibit my posting poems on any public thread . Yes, I'm an arrogant prick into the bargain)?  Does one debate aesthetic parameters here?  Philosophical issues (empiricism, linguistics, semantics, etc.) related to poetry?  I'm really just asking someone to aim me at some extant explanations of what goes on here.  I don't expect tailor-made commentary.  I'm not THAT arrogant. . .


----------



## PiP

Clark, if you scroll back 83 pages this is the explanation



Selorian said:


> Come in, grab a seat, have a drink and a bite to eat while enjoying general LM Poetry Challenge discussions, questions, and the like.
> 
> *_Please be advised that only challenge and score threads are allowed within the LM Poetry Challenge forum. All questions and discussions should take place here in The Bards' Bistro._



Entries for the January poetry challenge are posted
http://www.writingforums.com/forums/57-Poetry-Challenges


----------



## Firemajic

Hello, Clark.... This is where all discussions about the monthly poetry challenge happen...


----------



## clark

Firemajic -- Thanks.  I like your catchy signature from good ol' "Anon" (prolific muhthah ain't he?) about death and love.


----------



## Firemajic

clark said:


> This is my first visit to The Bard's Bistro, which confuses me (both readings of the misplaced modifier apply). What might I gain by being here?  Where am I?  Does one post poems here (my pretensions to grandeur prohibit my posting poems on any public thread .*** Yes, I'm an arrogant prick*** into the bargain)?  Does one debate aesthetic parameters here?  Philosophical issues (empiricism, linguistics, semantics, etc.) related to poetry?  I'm really just asking someone to aim me at some extant explanations of what goes on here.  I don't expect tailor-made commentary.  I'm not THAT arrogant. . .




Hello, Clark... I like that you see yourself as an arrogant prick, I think that is half the battle, don't you? Most go through life and never discover their strengths... 

Thanks for the info about my signature line... I did not know who wrote that... I will google it...


----------



## Ariel

I just realized my spacing disappeared. Ah. Well.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Crazy day, apologies for the delay, Ariel. I took a gander at your entry, and given the format and your post here, if you feel the spacing is essential, you may edit to get your spaces where you want them.

For the record, after the ten minute grace period has come and gone, if any entrant discovers their intended format was corrupted in the posting process, please PM me regarding the issue. If you provide me with a copy of how you intended it and the post itself came out different, an edit may be possible. Formatting means exactly that, though, you may add spaces or fix line breaks that wind up wonky, etc., but you may not change/add/delete a single key stroke which means letters or punctuation. Please do not attempt such an edit past the grace period unless we've discussed it first. Thank you.


----------



## aj47

clark said:


> This is my first visit to The Bard's Bistro, which confuses me (both readings of the misplaced modifier apply). What might I gain by being here?


Post-count? Experience? Only you can discern what you gain from being here.


> Where am I?


Welcome to the *Bards' Bistro* the discussion area for the monthly poetry challenge.  The January 2017 entries are posted here (well, kind of, you'll see)


> Does one post poems here (my pretensions to grandeur prohibit my posting poems on any public thread . Yes, I'm an arrogant prick into the bargain)?


No.  And if you want to enter the January 2017 challenge, there is a members-only (i.e. non-public, invisible to search-engines) area here (what I was referencing above).



> Does one debate aesthetic parameters here? Philosophical issues (empiricism, linguistics, semantics, etc.) related to poetry?  I'm really just asking someone to aim me at some extant explanations of what goes on here.  I don't expect tailor-made commentary.  I'm not THAT arrogant. . .


I don't care *how* arrogant you are—I'm a pedant (and I'm okay).


----------



## Ariel

Chester's Daughter said:


> Crazy day, apologies for the delay, Ariel. I took a gander at your entry, and given the format and your post here, if you feel the spacing is essential, you may edit to get your spaces where you want them.
> 
> For the record, after the ten minute grace period has come and gone, if any entrant discovers their intended format was corrupted in the posting process, please PM me regarding the issue. If you provide me with a copy of how you intended it and the post itself came out different, an edit may be possible. Formatting means exactly that, though, you may add spaces or fix line breaks that wind up wonky, etc., but you may not change/add/delete a single key stroke which means letters or punctuation. Please do not attempt such an edit past the grace period unless we've discussed it first. Thank you.



Thank you. I had to post white periods to get the spacing to work. I'll send you the original by PM.


----------



## The Fantastical

clark said:


> This is my first visit to The Bard's Bistro, which confuses me (both readings of the misplaced modifier apply). What might I gain by being here?  Where am I?  Does one post poems here (my pretensions to grandeur prohibit my posting poems on any public thread . Yes, I'm an arrogant prick into the bargain)?  Does one debate aesthetic parameters here?  Philosophical issues (empiricism, linguistics, semantics, etc.) related to poetry?  I'm really just asking someone to aim me at some extant explanations of what goes on here.  I don't expect tailor-made commentary.  I'm not THAT arrogant. . .



I have been here for a month or two and I STILL don't know... A lot of things about these challenges are confusing.


----------



## Phil Istine

The Fantastical said:


> I have been here for a month or two and I STILL don't know... A lot of things about these challenges are confusing.



It took me a little while to figure it out too.
It did make sense though once I got into my stride.
Just remember that if you want to keep your first publishing rights, post in the section that's hidden from search engines.  Then paste a link into the more public section.


----------



## The Fantastical

I know that... but it is still.... Personally I think that all places that work is published should be private...


----------



## Olly Buckle

The Fantastical said:


> I know that... but it is still.... Personally I think that all places that work is published should be private...



That is your personal take, there are also people who want to be read as widely as possible and either don't have a hope of being published, or are simply not interested in all the faff involved in getting there. I can't see a problem, the 'first rights' alternative is there, and well publicised.


----------



## aj47

The Fantastical said:


> I know that... but it is still.... Personally I think that all places that work is published should be private...



The problem with that is that it's then tough to share stuff with people who aren't ten-post-making forum members.  It's fine and good to try to persuade family and close friends to join the forum, but the guys in your project group at school or in the whatever MeetUp or at work or what-not might want to see your work but not become forum members.

Not all my stuff is shareable, but some is, and it's easier to have it here than maintain my own Web site.


----------



## The Fantastical

Olly Buckle said:


> That is your personal take, there are also people who want to be read as widely as possible and either don't have a hope of being published, or are simply not interested in all the faff involved in getting there. I can't see a problem, the 'first rights' alternative is there, and well publicised.



It really isn't about weather or not you publish but about a feeling of safety. I am on a number of forums and I honestly have to say that if I see a forum that has every section where I share something that is mine closed to the public eye, I think "great forum". Knowing that Joe Soap  from down the road can't just see something that I have posted without joining and being a member... bothers me a little. 

I don't post in the workshop because I ever want to publish, I post because I don't want just anyone to see my work. Fact is that the internet is a big bad place and personally I don't want it having free access to my stuff.


----------



## aj47

That's fine  That's a perfectly legitimate use of the Workshop space.  I have stuff there that is there for that reason, also  I don't expect to publish everything I create but some of it is not intended for the general public.


----------



## PiP

The Fantastical said:


> I know that... but it is still.... *Personally I think that all places that work is published should be private...



The Workshop is a private space for registered members which is not visible to the search engines or new members so as you say it is not visible to Joe Soap. There is also the  Motley Tavern where you can post Poetry and there is the Group option. 

ETA: Some members only come here to share their work with Joe Soap. And if they are lucky, someone will take the time to offer suggestions for improvement.

*So are you saying you want ALL the creative boards to be private including the challenge boards?


----------



## aj47

Exactly.  I *do* want to improve--even the stuff I don't intend to submit because I may publish it myself.  So I'm in the Workshop rather than the Tavern (except for fluff--I do have some fluff in the Tavern Poetry section).


----------



## Ariel

I'm not a prolific writer myself. I want to be able to motivate myself when I'm in a dry spell and this forum does that.  I have also learned a lot from the members here.


----------



## Nellie

Ariel said:


> I'm not a prolific writer myself. I want to be able to motivate myself when I'm in a dry spell and this forum does that.  I have also learned a lot from the members here.



Me too. Matter of fact, another member is the reason I joined this forum, to help me learn and to improve.  She and other members have done that.


----------



## The Fantastical

PiP said:


> ETA: Some members only come here to share their work with Joe Soap. And if they are lucky, someone will take the time to offer suggestions for improvement.




Why I joined is because I wanted to improve my writing... but that means I want the members of this forum, the people that have been here, posted a lot, are a active part of this community  to see my work and comment. Not a random person from the wide web that may or may not know a comma from a full stop. There is a lot to be said for keeping it in the family, if someone simply wants the world to read their stuff, there are a lot of sites were they can post their stuff for the world to see, without the hassle of publishing them in any official way. 



> *So are you saying you want ALL the creative boards to be private including the challenge boards?



Yes I am saying that. It would be nice if the writing sections of this forum (where people share actual bits of their work), all the writing sections including the challenges, were private, for members eyes only. But I also know that others are happy as thing stand, thanks to every-ones earlier comments, so... no worries.


----------



## rcallaci

In recent years I never worried about first rights. Self-publishing as come a long long way and is now a viable route. The publishing houses have changed many of there procedures so it's not like it was say, 10, 15 or 20 years ago when that was the only way to get your work out there. Also if you self-publish and it gets good traction some of the houses will pick it up.  

Also by being on the open boards and having some of your work out there makes it like a time stamp. If some lazy idiot plagiarizes your work it's quite easy to proof that your piece was there first and that your style is imprinted on the open work that you posted. Also say an publisher considers publishing the work of yours from a plagiarizer. They do internet checks for first rights and possible plagiarizers. They would find your work, would investigate and 99 .9% of the time find out that yours was the real deal and would throw the plagiarizer in the street.  

My dollar of advice...


----------



## Ariel

I actually went to school for writing. I have participated and still participate in writing workshops. I expect a certain quality and I would not have joined if I hadn't been able to see the quality of critique.  I think there are other writers out there like me who had the same sort of expectations.  I won't sign onto a site unless I know what I'm getting.


----------



## midnightpoet

It happened again - my muse waited to the last minute to give me inspiration.  She needs to stop fiddling around and get on the stick.


----------



## Blue

^^ Yep, I relate haha
Currently in the midst of a pre-quarter life crisis. Not sure if that's a thing, but if not, then I'm making it a thing. 
This poetry thing is new, sort of just winged it but ah well :-k


----------



## clark

I'm very new to the  Groups in WF other than Metaphor 3, which my co-manager, Ron Peat, and I brought over from Linkedin 13 months ago (Ron launched Met 1 about 4 yrs ago.  Met 1 evolved into Met 2 then Met 3).  I have zero interest in posting any of my stuff on public sites accessible to the search engines of the world, simply because I want to keep options open, notwithstanding rcallaci's point that self-publishing has smoothed out the publishing landscape somewhat.

And I very much like Ariel's point about screening sites to ensure that the quality of both poetry and critique meets her expectations.  Sounds elitist?  Even a little arrogant?  I like this woman's approach!  She has no wish to be "a snowy dove trooping among crows". Like Ariel,  I want to be the best poet I can possibly be among poets of like mind, and I will not achieve that by booking economy seats on PC flights over the  grey landscapes of mediocrity.  I'm impressed by the intelligence, knowledge, and quality of poetry I've seen here.  On my good days I think I can contribute.  On my really bad days, when common sense dictates I should be at the corner bar pounding pints and telling lies with whomever, if I _should _have the temerity to post something, I hope you will say, "Clark you're writing shit."  I promise to reciprocate.  No flowers or candies or scented handkerchiefs.  We're going to have fun!

Footnote to Ariel:  if you want to 'taste' a closed, private site, cannot you ask the Manager for a brief 'guest pass, say, eight hours, just to have a look, no?


----------



## Phil Istine

The vote-for-as-many-as-you-wish produced a new problem for me - where to set the bar.  I could easily have voted for seven or eight, but I ended up settling for the four that really resonated with me and produced strong mental images, powerful feelings, or both.  I paid less attention to form this time around as I wanted to vote with my gut rather than my brain.  Hope that makes sense.


----------



## clark

Phil -- I agree and intend to vote for four myself.  The only quibble I have with your statement arises from my passionate advocacy of Creeley's (for me) mantra: FORM IS NEVER MORE THAN AN EXTENSION OF CONTENT.  Easy to understand as a sentence in English and as easy to grasp and put into practice as snatching eels out of a tubful of olive oil.  So in addition to content that resonates and hits me in the gut, I'm also looking for _vehicles _that move their loads as smooth as silk.


----------



## Ariel

I fat-thumbed the "vote now" button before making all of my choices. It's been a difficult day.


----------



## sas

Gosh, I am torn as to number. I am leaning toward voting for only one. Shocking, probably. When voting in political races it's called plunking. Of course, one must feel quite strongly about selection. I think I do.  Hmmmm.


----------



## aj47

One is as good as any other number if it's what feels right to you. 

I believe I chose five worthies (I didn't count, but could go back and look if I were sufficiently motivated).  My criterion was -- would I be happy if this represented WF as the winning poem for January. I could have narrowed it further, but this is the first .... as-many-as-you-like poll so I'm easing into it and trying to be generous.


----------



## sas

Don't confuse me, Astro.  Smiles.  I found a valuable read in them all, for different reasons. So, when able to vote for more than one, I have more of a problem. I like to KISS a choice (in men, too...one, at a time, is enough).  LOL


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Why hasn't anyone labeled me the idiot I clearly am for neglecting to link the entries in the voting thread? I've remedied it and apologize to everyone.


----------



## PiP

Chester's Daughter said:


> Why hasn't anyone labeled me the idiot I clearly am for neglecting to link the entries in the voting thread?



Coz we want to live?


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Aw, c'mon now, I'm as gentle as a lamb (on the first Tuesday of every second month). Love you to bits, PiPs. I sorely needed that laugh.


----------



## PiP

Chester's Daughter said:


> Love you to bits, PiPs. I sorely needed that laugh.



For a moment there I thought you might eat me alive! My humour can be an acquired taste at times.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Not to worry, I only dine on the dead. Experience has taught me the live ones squirm too much. That said, you won't feel a thing, promise, lol.


----------



## ned

hello -

I have a couple of concerns regarding the enforcement of The Poetry Challenge rules.
I guess this is a question for the moderators, but I would welcome anyone's views. 

Unless I've missed something, the ten minute limit on editing seems to have gone out of the window.
Last January, my challenge entry 'Bang' was edited 13 minutes after posting. It was my first attempt at posting in the workshop section and having to make a link to the main thread, so it took a little while to figure it out. After finally testing the link, I noticed and edited a one word error in the poem.

For being 3 minutes late, I was asked for an explanation, under pain of exemption, I presume.
As I recall, we also had a judge for that month's challenge, who commented that my late editing was 'problematic'.

The rules also state-
"The worth of all entries must be determined based upon original works  alone, for that is the purpose of the Challenge. The inclusion of  outside material of any variety can conceivably influence voters'  interpretations and/or emotions which can result in an unfair advantage  for those who employ them, hence our decision to disallow them."

I could be mistaken, but a 100 word preamble setting the scene, the mood and context sounds like a breach of the above to me.

Don't get me wrong - the poem reads just fine, even without the lengthy introduction - and although it's not my sort of thing, I can appreciate its merit as a worthy winner of the challenge. 
But I've got to wonder - what next? Pictures and videos?

If the ten minute rule is being so wildly flouted, then why not allow any editing up to polling day?
But the allowing of extra material outside the body of the poem is a more serious matter to me.

just a thought
Ned


----------



## Ariel

Ned, I can only speak for myself as the below is exactly why _I_ edited outside of the grace period.  As Chester's Daughter is the challenge manager for this challenge I would take what she says as the rule and I would expect that this response would apply to any entrant and is most likely the reason behind the edits to sas and Clark's entries.

As for the introduction to Clark's poem, I hardly feel that this added extra emotion that could not be gained from the poem itself. I think I'd personally prefer not to see introductions to works in the future but that is not my decision to make here. 



Chester's Daughter said:


> Crazy day, apologies for the delay, Ariel. I took a gander at your entry, and given the format and your post here, if you feel the spacing is essential, you may edit to get your spaces where you want them.
> 
> For the record, after the ten minute grace period has come and gone, if any entrant discovers their intended format was corrupted in the posting process, please PM me regarding the issue. If you provide me with a copy of how you intended it and the post itself came out different, an edit may be possible. Formatting means exactly that, though, you may add spaces or fix line breaks that wind up wonky, etc., but you may not change/add/delete a single key stroke which means letters or punctuation. Please do not attempt such an edit past the grace period unless we've discussed it first. Thank you.


----------



## PiP

I am not the challenge host but as a regular participant in the poetry challenges I'll add my  2cents about the preamble. You are right ned, but why not raise your concerns by PM with Lisa when the poem was first posted, or at least before the poll closed? I confess, I never gave the preamble a second thought when I voted for his poem as for me it was the best by a country mile. Had the issue been raised before the announcement I think if there was a breach of the rule then it should have been applied. However, as none of us challenge veterans raised this with Lisa, I say let's show a charitable spirit? We all need to be vigilant.


----------



## clark

Whoof!  Seems I've unwittingly started a bit of a fire with the preamble to my poem.  I inserted the preamble for only ONE reason:  the architecture and design of prisons in Canada and the USA went through a radical rethink and redesign in the 1970s to reflect a major philosophical shift from *penitent*iaries (a Christian-values model) to *correction*al centres (a behavioral modification model).  The buildings of present-day prisons in both our countries bear NO resemblance whatever to the old-style prisons.  I have no information about the demographics of WF poets.  I assumed (perhaps erroneously) that many of you were 30 to 50.  I thought that people in that age bracket would be unaware of the grim interiors and routines of an "old" prison.  I now realize that I should have sought advice from seasoned Challenge participants before inserting the preamble.  It never occurred to me that its content might influence a reader's experience of the poem _qua_ poem.


----------



## sas

Did not know this discussion was going on. I'd like to say that I did a very minor edit after the time allowance, and when I realized it, I immediately notified one of the moderators that I might need to be DQ'd. I left it in their hands to evaluate. 

My suggestion, and the ultimate decision is unimportant to me, is that edits should be able to be made until time of voting. As a writer, I just hate when I post an error. I'd rather take a DQ and remove my poem. My two cents.

And, yes, I was surprised that a preamble explanation of a poem's content stood without challenge. I often write quite metaphorically, and would like to explain mine before posting. 

I might add that I am from the old school where we make final decisions, no matter how hard. I've always told my family to never make a decision by not making one. Therefore, I voted for one poem. (Not one's own, of course) Can poets not make the hard call? 

I might add that if one vote is allowed, out of courtesy, the number of votes a poem received should not be disclosed.

Sas
.


----------



## Gumby

Ned, thank you for bringing this up, as I think it is a valid point. 

I would agree with PiP. Any questions about a poem should be either brought to the attention of the Challenge Host (Chester's Daughter) or to the attention of the poet of said poem, with the suggestion that they may want to consult the Host about it. The issue could then be resolved ahead of time, to everyone's satisfaction. 

In this case, it is a done deal. We all learn from it and move forward, yes?


----------



## Chesters Daughter

I approved both edits, and although Ariel was already kind enough to share my following post in which I offered everyone the opportunity to edit for formatting issues, I will again quote it:



Chester's Daughter said:


> Crazy day, apologies for the delay, Ariel. I took a gander at your entry, and given the format and your post here, if you feel the spacing is essential, you may edit to get your spaces where you want them.
> 
> For the record, after the ten minute grace period has come and gone, if any entrant discovers their intended format was corrupted in the posting process, please PM me regarding the issue. If you provide me with a copy of how you intended it and the post itself came out different, an edit may be possible. Formatting means exactly that, though, you may add spaces or fix line breaks that wind up wonky, etc., but you may not change/add/delete a single key stroke which means letters or punctuation. Please do not attempt such an edit past the grace period unless we've discussed it first. Thank you.



If any piece is still showing as edited when it's time for voting, you can rest assured that I have previously approved it.

As for clark's preamble, I saw it immediately as I linked his post for him. I allowed it to remain because in my enthusiasm to open the first "post your own" challenge I neglected to include the "no explanatory text rule" in my opening posts:



Chester's Daughter said:


> The prompt for this month's challenge, as chosen by jenthepen is: *Control*
> 
> You are free to interpret the prompt in any way you wish, though of course, site rules apply. If you are unsure of the challenge rules please read the 'stickies' at the top of the board. *Please note that all entries* *are eligible to receive critique in the voting thread.*
> 
> As previously announced, anonymous entries have been abolished, therefore, entrants must post their own entries in the public thread, or if you desire to protect first rights, please post your entry here in the the workshop thread, and then post a link to it in the *public thread*. *Failure to do so runs the risk of your entry being disqualifie**d*, so if you require assistance with the task, please PM *me*, and I will gladly help you.
> 
> If your entry contains strong language or mature content, *please include a disclaimer in your title.**
> *
> Kindly make sure your entry is properly formatted and error free before you submit. You have a *ten minute grace period* to edit your piece, but anything edited after that will likely see your entry excluded from the challenge. *
> *
> *Do not post comments in this thread. Any discussion related to the challenge can take place in the Bards' Bistro.
> 
> **We respectfully request that you refrain from using the "Like" function until this thread has been closed and the poll has been opened.
> **
> 
> 
> This challenge will close on the 15th of January at 7pm EST. *





Chester's Daughter said:


> The prompt for this month's challenge, as chosen by jenthepen is: *Control*
> 
> You are free to interpret the prompt in any way you wish, though of course, site rules apply. If you are unsure of the challenge rules please read the 'stickies' at the top of the board. *Please note that all entries* *are eligible to receive critique in the voting thread.*
> 
> As previously announced, anonymous entries have been abolished, therefore, entrants must post their own entries in this thread, or if you desire to protect first rights, please post your entry in the *workshop thread*, and then post a link to it here in the public thread. *Failure to do so runs the risk of your entry being disqualifie**d*, so if you require assistance with the task, please PM *me*, and I will gladly help you.
> 
> If your entry contains strong language or mature content, *please include a disclaimer in your title.**
> *
> Kindly make sure your entry is properly formatted and error free before you submit. You have a *ten minute grace period* to edit your piece, but anything edited after that will likely see your entry excluded from the challenge. *
> *
> *Do not post comments in this thread. Any discussion related to the challenge can take place in the Bards' Bistro.
> 
> **We respectfully request that you refrain from using the "Like" function until this thread has been closed and the poll has been opened.
> **
> 
> 
> This challenge will close on the 15th of January at 7pm EST.
> *





I could not, and would not, have penalized anyone for my mistake. Please keep in mind that this was clark's first foray into the challenge arena, and he could not have known the rule existed as he had no previous exposure to it. Here is the rule as it stands:



Chester's Daughter said:


> The inclusion of links of any kind within an entrant's Challenge post is prohibited and shall be promptly removed by staff.
> 
> The worth of all entries must be determined based upon original works alone, for that is the purpose of the Challenge. The inclusion of outside material of any variety can conceivably influence voters' interpretations and/or emotions which can result in an unfair advantage for those who employ them, hence our decision to disallow them.
> 
> Once the poll has officially closed, all entrants have the option of posting their entry on the boards, and may include any extras they believe will enhance readers' experience at that time providing said material does not breach any other existing rule.
> 
> We thank you in advance for your anticipated cooperation in this matter.



And here is the excerpt from previous opening posts pertaining to same:



Chester's Daughter said:


> *The inclusion of explanatory text or links of any kind within an entrant's Challenge entry is prohibited. As always, only one entry per member is permitted.*



The inclusion of extras merely results in their removal, not a disqualification. And it is a simple fact that clark certainly did not win because of his preamble, even without it, that impeccable piece would have snared the win.

These judgment calls were not made lightly, and they will not be reversed. I've made my reasoning perfectly clear, and if anyone chooses to further discuss this with me, kindly do so via PM. I am not pleased that entrants felt compelled to explain themselves in the Bistro for decisions made solely by me.

In the future, if anyone encounters anything they feel is suspect, kindly contact me via PM.

Thank you for your attention.


----------



## ned

hello -

OK - let's make it clear - I simply raised some concerns - and certainly not a a criticism of the hosts, moderators or any of the entries to the challenge.

I am perfectly happy with how this month's challenge was run, and feel the results are a fair reflection of the merits of the entries.

but, I also feel that there are grey areas that need to be addressed for future challenges.

PiP - I only read the workshop entries on the night I voted - well after most of the other votes had been cast. Imagine the dilemna and confusion if my concerns were PMed to our host and acted upon it at that time. Our host works hard to give us a wonderful platform to showcase our varied talents, and certainly doesn't need any extra problems.

No, the time to raise these issues is after the dust has settled - when we move on forward to a new challenge.

The ten minute editing rule-
the grey area is what editing, if any, is permitted after ten minutes. This, it seems, is a judgement call for the host, and yet another burden of responsibility. 
To me, the ten minute rule is a hangover from the LM challenge, which is judged. Having had the honour of judging, I know they want to get on with critiquing a posted work as soon as possible - and wouldn't appreciate any later editing.
But that doesn't seem to apply here.

So, why not allow editing right up to the close of the challenge?
If a voter has only read the original version, then that is a risk the poet takes. It puts the onus on the entrant, rather then bothering the host.

the allowing of extra material outside the body of the poem-
again, a judgement call from the host and certainly a grey area on what is permissable.

The simple answer is not to allow anything other then the poem - but that is a matter for all of us to consider. Personally, I'm not happy with the precedent set. (that goes for the president too!).

I did wonder where to post these concerns - if at all.
After scouring the forum, I realised this thread is the most appropiate place. Out in the open, available to mods and rockers, poets, voters and floaters.

Gumby - with all respect, this is not about any single poem (and it's certainly not my place to question any entrant during the contest).
It's about simplifying the groundrules for the entrants (and easing the workload of the mods) - it is no good saying lessons are learnt, unless we act on them. Then, we can move forward.

The Poetry Challenge is fabulous and unique within WF - where we can all be judges.
My only wish is to see it grow stronger.

thanks for reading
Ned

PS - CD, our replies seemed to have crossed - so thank you for your explanations -
it all sounds rather exhaustive, but not really necessary in the context of my concerns -
which is for the future of the challenge.
I can only hope you will consider my suggestions.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Thank you, ned, for your kind understanding. 

The exclusion of extras will be reinstated next month because this egghead won't neglect to inform everyone of it in her opening posts.

Henceforth, everyone may use the "Like" function whenever it suits them. There will no longer be a restriction on it.

As for the ten minute grace period for editing, unless I can be convinced otherwise, it will remain. The purpose of it is to have entrants hone their work to perfection before submission. The idea behind it is to teach us how to prepare our work for submission to publishers. Were this three decades ago, and this contest was conducted in the neanderthal fashion of pen and paper, you couldn't go banging on the contest organizer's door with an eraser in hand begging to correct something. The discipline is an excellent exercise, methinks.


----------



## sas

Question:  If one does not have a poem submitted for the Challenge, can they still vote? Thanks. sas


----------



## Phil Istine

sas said:


> Question:  If one does not have a poem submitted for the Challenge, can they still vote? Thanks. sas



Yes.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Of course, they may, my dear. All are welcome.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Okay me lovelies, both February stomping grounds are open for business. Please employ your "free will" and populate them to capacity, but only after you read all of the rules. I just hadda throw a tiny bit of "control" in there, lol. Happy posting!

http://www.writingforums.com/thread...nge-quot-Free-Will-quot?p=2061350#post2061350


----------



## Phil Istine

Chester's Daughter said:


> Okay me lovelies, both February stomping grounds are open for business. Please employ your "free will" and populate them to capacity, but only after you read all of the rules. I just hadda throw a tiny bit of "control" in there, lol. Happy posting!
> 
> http://www.writingforums.com/thread...nge-quot-Free-Will-quot?p=2061350#post2061350



I saw Clark also mentioned "Volition".  Do we have to use that meaning of "Free Will" or may we use another?  There are a number of potential interpretations and the prompts here are usually excellent for leaving it open to the poet.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

They're essentially the same:

vo·li·tion
vōˈliSH(ə)n/
_noun_


the faculty or power of using one's will.


Free will is the power, volition is employing it, the act of choosing to exercise free will.. As always, our prompts are subject to personal interpretation. I'll go in and add volition to the opening posts.


----------



## Phil Istine

Chester's Daughter said:


> They're essentially the same:
> 
> vo·li·tion
> vōˈliSH(ə)n/
> _noun_
> 
> 
> the faculty or power of using one's will.
> 
> 
> Free will is the power, volition is employing it, the act of choosing to exercise free will.. As always, our prompts are subject to personal interpretation. I'll go in and add volition to the opening posts.



Yes, I realise they are the same.  I was just kind of hoping there might be room to play around with other interpretations.  Volition-style free will it is then


----------



## aj47

Phil Istine said:


> Yes, I realise they are the same.  I was just kind of hoping there might be room to play around with other interpretations.  Volition-style free will it is then



Well, really, you have a choice.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

That stiletto in your side is me gently persuading you to post your entry in the Challenge. We're kinda light this month, and with only a little over seven hours remaining to enter, I felt a friendly reminder was in order. This is me begging, where is everyone?


----------



## aj47

_I feel a little stilloetto from the ma'am 
_​(scare 'em much? scare 'em much?)
[did they post in Fan Dangles?]


​


----------



## Ariel

I am all out of ideas at the moment. I am frantically researching different topics to see if anything sparks.


----------



## clark

Apologies to all.  Though new to this game, it nonetheless seems rude to submit a prompt then fail to submit a poem !  A toxic mix of a wretched cold spiced up with equally wretched crises visited upon wretched friends has made this a wretched month of zero available time.

The mists are clearing.  I will try to submit next month.


----------



## Gumby

Glad to hear that the mist is clearing, clark! Been there too many times, myself.


----------



## bdcharles

Gosh my entry in the "Collision Course" challange seems to have gone walkabout.  :O

[EDIT} Oh no there it is in the secure entries bit. I coulda sworn it was in the unsecure bit ... ah well


----------



## Darkkin

Putting in the ground work for NaPoem projects...So many moving parts, but it's worth it.  It is truly a collision course between Highlay, the Heckler, Back the Black, and Blinkken the 2nd.  Turtle is keeping an eye on everything as she courses across the night sky, and the Lollop will soon return...


----------



## Chesters Daughter

*I have a church function to attend and am unsure what time I'll be home. That said, locking of threads and the creation of the voting thread may be postponed for a bit. Didn't want you all to think I'm neglecting our beloved challenge. 

Thanks to to all for participating, and happy holiday to those who observe. Appreciate your eyes, guys.*


----------



## Chesters Daughter

The poll closes in less than 36 hours, where is everyone? I'd thought making announcements to the entire site would entice more voters, but that seems to have flopped.


----------



## andrewclunn

What's the policy on fixing glaring typos, that I can now *not unsee* in my submission prior to the deadline?  Gosh, I really should have walked away from that thing and looked at it with fresh eyes before submitting, I just got caught up in the inspirational process!


----------



## Phil Istine

andrewclunn said:


> What's the policy on fixing glaring typos, that I can now *not unsee* in my submission prior to the deadline?  Gosh, I really should have walked away from that thing and looked at it with fresh eyes before submitting, I just got caught up in the inspirational process!



I'm not a moderator but I say leave it be.  If an alteration is made after the ten-minute grace period, disqualification is normal.  Apart from that, it looks a mighty fine poem to me anyway


----------



## Chesters Daughter

What glaring abomination assaults thine eyes? Point me proper and perhaps I can repair it for you depending upon what it is. I'm glad you inquired as opposed to doing the deed. As previously stated, the only post grace period edits must be format issues and should be discussed with me prior to being initiated:



Chester's Daughter said:


> Crazy day, apologies for the delay, Ariel. I took a gander at your entry, and given the format and your post here, if you feel the spacing is essential, you may edit to get your spaces where you want them.
> 
> For the record, after the ten minute grace period has come and gone, if any entrant discovers their intended format was corrupted in the posting process, please PM me regarding the issue. If you provide me with a copy of how you intended it and the post itself came out different, an edit may be possible. Formatting means exactly that, though, you may add spaces or fix line breaks that wind up wonky, etc., but you may not change/add/delete a single key stroke which means letters or punctuation. Please do not attempt such an edit past the grace period unless we've discussed it first. Thank you.



As this is your first adventure as an entrant, I'm willing to consider your problem, love, but cannot make any promises until I am privy to your dilemma. We strictly maintain the no after hours edits requirement, so please, everyone, proofread until you puke. Welcome to the Challenge, Andrew.


----------



## andrewclunn

The two that are just not excusable are:"let's" should read "lets" and "lay" should read "lie."


----------



## Phil Istine

andrewclunn said:


> The two that are just not excusable are:"let's" should read "lets" and "lay" should read "lie."



Indeed, I never picked those up at all when I skim-read.  But yes, it needs to be lie to keep the tense consistent.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

andrewclunn said:


> The two that are just not excusable are:"let's" should read "lets" and "lay" should read "lie."



'Tis done, Milord. You've now exhausted your newcomer freebie, lol. I caught the let's but not the lay upon my look see, but like Phil, I only skimmed. I refuse to really read unless I have the time and silence each entry deserves. Best of luck with your premiere effort.


----------



## Darkkin

Generally, I post pieces for critique after the challenge, but I also know my writing style.  It is complex and highly subjective.  I also know how I critique.  I'm honest, not nice and it does not endear me to the majority of writers...Some make it personal when it truly isn't; it is a fundamental issue with the writing. 

 To some my presence on the boards is an affront, yet mandatory critique is being mentioned?  Sorry, but I fail to appreciate the irony.  But trying to force a service rendered, while knowing full well what the probably reaction is going to be...How is that not a waste of the reader's time and energy?

Apologies for the rant, but I come at this looking at facts and past reactions, not with the, 'Hey, suddenly I want to learn...and you are going to teach me!'  To demonstrate a willingness to learn, one needs to offer something before saying hey, critique needs to be mandatory.  By giving critique you learn far more than merely expecting it.  It is that simple.

You want to know how poetry works, take it apart.  See how it ticks and learn to articulate the withertos and whyfores.  The fact that critique is reader's choice spares the forum boatloads of drama.


----------



## The Fantastical

I am just going to vent here a little out of pure frustration so please don't take this personally. There is a culture of none comment or unhelpful commenting on this forum that is very hard to get past. Thus my wild thought of pushing people to actually comment and please don't suggest posting in one of the workshops as this is where the issue of lack of helpful feedback is most evident. 

Sorry if this offends but I am just a frustrated writer trying to improve and nothing and no-one is helping. This is why I don't post any of my poems here anymore or much of my writing. I just can't get the help I need here. I had hoped that this challenge might be a place to tap into a more wider range of advice than I get on the workshop boards but no. Everyone is simply interested in winning which is just not cool. I thought that we were supposed to be a community that helps each other not just a group of "winners". 

P.S. You have just lost a future entrant. I won't be taking part again as winning isn't why I am here.


----------



## Darkkin

No one is stopping you from offering critique.  You say you want to learn, then try leading by example.  Offer the critique you feel you are entitled to.  It is that simple.  Give something before making demands.  In essence, practice what you preach then take time to consider the effort and the reactions you engender.  Was all the work worth it?


----------



## PiP

Hey, FT. Please don't feel disheartened. There is no reason why you can't offer critique. I just don't want to be pressured into offering critiques when I barely have the time to enter.


----------



## Firemajic

Firemajic said:


> :glee: I agree... about not showing the results... that is why I no longer participate in this contest, my fragile ego cannot bear the thought of not getting any votes... hahaaa.... what? well, it's true...




Well, this was NOT my best, award winning moment, and I would like to apologize for that comment... Of course sometimes, my confidence and ego takes a beating... but I am reminded of one of WF's finest mentors [rcallaci, AKA Maestro] who said "poet's need thick skin"... and for me, that is the BEST advice I have been given as a writer, cause if one can separate one's ego from one's work, and look at the critique given and be objective, there is the potential for real growth... soooo.... anyway...

I do love sas's idea, of posting her challenge entry in the workshop for critique and feedback, that is a fabulous idea...

The Fantastical, I am so sorry you have not received the help and support you deserve... I apologize... no one who is a member here, should feel that way... just make sure you are critiquing and offering your support to others, as it seems this helps others respond...

There is nothing wrong with wanting to win this esteemed challenge, that is a high honor indeed, but at the end of the day, this is supposed to be a supportive, friendly writing community, where we all nurture and help each other...


----------



## Firemajic

Darkkin said:


> There are reasons I like both the monthly and the PiP.  Both are unique and a good source of inspiration.  But trying to force critique via dramatic statements is shabby netiquette.  And it is exactly the sort of behavior that inhibits a reader's response.  It is entitlement of an individual that can effect the reactions of the group.  The popular vote criteria is determined by the readers,*** but the choice of critique should always remain in the hands of the readers.  As writers, we are not entitled to a reply.  Often you receive as much as you give.  Demanding it negates the needs of the many for the wants of the one.  And that is fundamentally unfair.****
> 
> History too often repeats itself, and as such, it is easy to comprehend why 'critique' devolves into mudslinging.  Cran and CD are spot on with their observations.






I agree... to be given a good, insightful critique is a privilege... and not something the writer is entitled to... especially when the critique is not even acknowledged or thanked... or reciprocated ...


----------



## Darkkin

I'm sorry I cannot be more empathtic to the wants of the individual, but something as time consuming as critique is not an entitlement.  It is not the writer's right unless they are paying for the critiquer's time and observations  e.g. (College classes and/or critique groups).  And if there is this much drama over the mere discussion of critique it doesn't bode well for the inevitable reactions to real critique.

And the challenge works because people chose to participate without expectation of recompense.  Yes, critique is a possiblity, not a guarantee.  Time is found to participate.  It isn't taken, especially from those who don't have a lot to spare.


----------



## sas

Fantastical....

Really, I'm not picking on you, but when you said: "P.S. You have just lost a future entrant. I won't be taking part again as winning isn't why I am here", it made me wonder about generational differences. I'm pretty old, in years (that's all I'll cop to; I ain't old any other way), and your comment lit me up. When I enter a contest, I enter to win. That's exactly why I'm there. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be a winner. And, there is nothing wrong with failure. A winner is anyone who tries. I especially applaud those who enter, any competition, knowing they are up against more experienced competition. How damn impressive is that? So, I say, "Winners, all"


----------



## Darkkin

The whole point of a challenge is to write to the best of one's ability, not for an expectation of critique.  Knowing one's piece has the chops and content to hold its own its own reward, but winning...That always feels good.  layful:


----------



## Terry D

It's simple. There are places on this site for critique and places for competition. Don't expect something that a particular forum doesn't offer.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

The Fantastical said:


> P.S. You have just lost a future entrant. I won't be taking part again as winning isn't why I am here.



As I stated at the beginning of this discussion, entries may be posted on either Poetry board for more individualized critique once our winner has been announced. I've already explained why I feel critique in the voting thread is nonexistent, and please know that I am saddened by the lack of give and take, but there's naught to be done about it save for forcing the issue which I will never be on board with. I am deeply distressed that you feel that no one and nothing are proving to be helpful to you in the workshops or on the boards. I've read quite a number of your threads, and while some of the critique focused on details you were not interested in exploring, the rest of it was helpful to these eyes. To say everyone who enters the challenge is just looking to win it is unfair as it is impossible to gauge another's motives lest they admit to them outright. Helping others improve their skills has always been first and foremost here at WF, and to learn that you feel that that goal is being neglected is highly alarming. Perhaps we can put our heads together to remedy this situation as we do our best to ensure every member has a positive experience during their interactions here.


----------



## midnightpoet

Didn't we have a prior rule that stated that any one wishing to have their poem critiqued to simply use the workshop? In any case, it's a good idea, no critiques except in workshop.  I'm not the first here to say writers need to have thick skins, and that includes poets.  I learned that lesson in a writer's group that had a hard rule on critiques - no comments from the poet/writer. Hard, maybe, but it worked.


----------



## The Fantastical

sas said:


> Fantastical....
> 
> Really, I'm not picking on you, but when you said: "P.S. You have just lost a future entrant. I won't be taking part again as winning isn't why I am here", it made me wonder about generational differences. I'm pretty old, in years (that's all I'll cop to; I ain't old any other way), and your comment lit me up. When I enter a contest, I enter to win. That's exactly why I'm there. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be a winner. And, there is nothing wrong with failure. A winner is anyone who tries. I especially applaud those who enter, any competition, knowing they are up against more experienced competition. How damn impressive is that? So, I say, "Winners, all"



I would not say that it was an age gap but rather a difference in life lessons. Winning isn't what is important and as soon as you make it important, make it the goal in anything you do you have already lost. Basically, winning is the easiest and quickest way to start losing.


----------



## The Fantastical

There has been a disturbing assumption that even though you know nothing you ought to comment and make a critique. I can't and won't comment on something with the low level of knowledge that I have about poetry. It will not help me nor will it help the person that I have critiqued as sharing ignorance is not a way of gaining knowledge.


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## ned

Fanta - you're making poetry sound like some sort of mystical dark-art - it really isn't that complicated.

Just give an opinion on a poem - what worked for you and what didn't - simple.
to claim ignorance of whether you like something or not just won't cut it - are you so reticent regarding movies?

I mean, do you have to be a Bachelor of Literature in order to comment? - that would probably end all debate.
no - art is the not the sole preserve of academia - thank goodness.

and counter to your assertion, honest comment helps both the author and yourself to gain further knowledge
 - at least on the basics.

lazy poets give poetry a bad name - but so do those who hold it up as unfathomable.

embrace the wordage...
Ned


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## Phil Istine

The Fantastical said:


> There has been a disturbing assumption that even though you know nothing you ought to comment and make a critique. I can't and won't comment on something with the low level of knowledge that I have about poetry. It will not help me nor will it help the person that I have critiqued as sharing ignorance is not a way of gaining knowledge.



Initially, critiquing may help you more than the other poet.  With time and practice, that begins to change.


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## The Fantastical

ned said:


> Fanta - you're making poetry sound like some sort of mystical dark-art - it really isn't that complicated.
> 
> Just give an opinion on a poem - what worked for you and what didn't - simple.
> to claim ignorance of whether you like something or not just won't cut it - are you so reticent regarding movies?
> 
> I mean, do you have to be a Bachelor of Literature in order to comment? - that would probably end all debate.
> no - art is the not the sole preserve of academia - thank goodness.
> 
> and counter to your assertion, honest comment helps both the author and yourself to gain further knowledge
> - at least on the basics.
> 
> lazy poets give poetry a bad name - but so do those who hold it up as unfathomable.
> 
> embrace the wordage...
> Ned





Phil Istine said:


> Initially, critiquing may help you more than the other poet. With time and practice, that begins to change.



I am not making this into a talk about a mystic art form.... The issue is that you fail to gain anything by getting comments of "oh that was nice". What good are they? HOW does that help me? Tell me WHY did you like it? And I can't answer the question of "why" to a degree that I feel is, in fact, helpful. 

No of what you speak is a darn good rule for life and for critiquing. 

In fact this culture of telling new writers that know nothing to comment on others work is why we end up with people sprouting forth these "rules" of writing that have little to do with actually being able to tell a story in any sort of linear and grammatically correct way. 

So no. I am not going to add to that. I wish for a world where knowledge is not just an opinion but actually based on well... knowledge! Take this as you wish but I am just not ok with the culture of ignorance that is blossoming in the world. It is not ok to give advice when you know nothing about the subject you are advising on! END OF!


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## The Fantastical

DELETED


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## Darkkin

Knowledge without even minor implementation is right next door to ignorance.  Like any skill if you don't use it, it never develops and the knowledge remains inert.  So then why have the knowledge in the first place if one is not going to bother using it?  You comment, you'll get something back...You don't, well...Readers keep track.  

Basic observations go a long way and articulating the why, well, that part really makes one deploy one's critical thinking skills.  And that is when one truly begins to learn.  It is that simple, so the issue of an individual's frustrations, rests not with the group, but the individual.  The tides of give and take stay fairly steady, but momentum is required to maintain the flow.  There are also reasons people can sign up for writing classes (poetry, creative, and basic).  The require implementation, however, remains the same.  (The motivation being the fee paid for the instruction...  )

The purpose of the challenge is to allow for poets to write to the best of their ability, not force replies so an individual can receive feedback without having to offer anything in return.  You want to critique you have that right, you want critique, you also have that right.  But to demand it, that is no one's right.  It is the reader's to give.  Numerous options have already been addressed.

These forums, its members, are an amazing resource.  Diverse writers of all levels, ages, and abilities.  Most offering much more than they take in terms of time and commitment.  It should never be taken for granted, as it occasionally is.

Just some thoughts.

- D.


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## ned

"Can we put this matter to rest now guys" - just when it is getting interesting?

OK HB - suffice to say -
the density of water at sea level is knowledge - but the consideration of art is all about opinion.
otherwise, we might as well all pack up and leave it to the professors...

engage with the sage.......Ned


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## The Fantastical

Art, at its core, is knowledge perfectly implemented. AKA We cannot have art without knowledge nor knowledge without creativity.


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## Darkkin

The Fantastical said:


> Art, at its core, is knowledge perfectly implemented.




As no individual is perfect, art by definition of this context does not and has never existed because nothing is truly perfect.  (True perfection is beyond the keen of the human mind.)  Creativity is the expression of human imagination through varied mediums, whereas the definition of art is nonquantifiable as parameters are set and determined by the individual.  Waiting to write the perfect poem, waiting to/for critique on such a level of the aforementioned isn't how one gains real, working knowledge.  It is avoidance, just like wanting to write the next great American novel is not a realistic objective. 

 Practice lays the foundations of working knowledge and mistakes are part of the learning curve.  Do it to learn it.  Akin to playing an instrument, one can read and memorize theory, all there is to know, but never bother to attempt to learn the mechanics of the instrument.  Theorectic knowledge is all well and good, but it benefits no one if not applied in a practical medium.  (Think about why Tesla, despite his brilliance never won the Noble Prize.  His knowledge was entirely theory and no tangible evidence.)  

it is why people need to learn to articulate their whys...Especially in mediums like writing.  Critique teaches one how to do that, not by receiving it but by doing it.

Perfect is an improbably construct causing more problems than it will ever solve.  It insites doubts and impossible goals.  And writing, poetry at its core, is a very practical art.  A little pragmatism goes a long way.  Try something before throwing one's hands up and giving into the 'It's too hard and I've never done it mentality.'  Every writer makes mistakes in writing and critique.  That is how critique works.  Writer and reader tagging in and out.  But an open mind is a requisite tool.

- D.


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## Chesters Daughter

*Should entrants in the Poetry Challenge be required to cast a vote(s)? Please post your opinions here. *


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## sas

Isn't this just a fluke that all those that posted did not vote? Maybe family issues, commitments, illness? Extending time makes sense to me, as solution. I didn't even plan on entering this month, due to time/traveling constraints, but this month's prompt made me do it. 

And what would the "punishment" be, if required. The only thing I can think of is that they could not win.


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## Chesters Daughter

I completely ken what you're saying, but I find the idea that you if you enter you should be invested enough to read the competition's offerings and at least pick one, otherwise the Challenge becomes no more than a showcase for those who do not participate by voting. Plopping your entry down just to see how it does with your peers is not the same as offering your own opinions in our pursuit of a winner. Those who are merely interested in the practice of the plop should just post on the board. The Challenge should be be interactive in my opinion. In abstaining from voting, one may actually skew the playing field in their favor, if they vote for no one, they have a more significant chance of winning if they're in the top three.


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## sas

Yep, and that is why voters should select only one. And, if you do not vote, you cannot win. Ties would be unlikely if only one vote allowed. I still see no reason poets cannot make a bottom line decision. I've been in business, too long, I guess. Set your personal criteria that a poem should meet, whatever your's might be, and vote for one poem. What is the difficulty with that? 'splain it Lucy.


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## jenthepen

It seems simple good manners to take part in the voting if you are part of the competition. In extreme situations, where one couldn't vote on the rare occasion, it would probably go unnoticed if it was a real rarity.

Incidentally, I vote that *the practice of the plop* is added to the WF dictionary without delay. lol


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## Phil Istine

Chester's Daughter said:


> *Should entrants in the Poetry Challenge be required to cast a vote(s)? Please post your opinions here. *



My opinion is that if a poet posts in the challenge, not voting should be automatic disqualification.  They should also have their fingernails removed and electrodes attached to sensitive places.
Seriously now, it's common courtesy to vote in a situation where not doing so can increase one's chances of winning.  I appreciate that sometimes life (or failed technology) can get in the way, but I do think that not being allowed to win a challenge where one omits to vote is reasonable.


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## PiP

Chester's Daughter said:


> *Should entrants in the Poetry Challenge be required to cast a vote(s)? Please post your opinions here. *


How will you enforce this? Will you make it part of the rules of entry? I agree with SAS there should me only one vote.


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## Firemajic

It is sad and really pathetic that this conversation is needed... This is a writing forum. And THIS is a writing community. There are a LOT of poets posting their work, receiving the benefit of thoughtful critique, guidance, support and feedback... day after day poets ask and receive... mentors and members offer their time and dedication to others who take and take... I wonder how many of them take the time to be supportive, read and vote? I just don't understand that attitude... it is so depressing... by my count, there should be at LEAST 30 votes... how sad.. maybe it should be revealed who votes... then we would know who did NOT vote... that would sure cut back on my feedback and critiques... if I don't see your name on the voting roster... then you receive no support in the poetry thread...


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## aj47

I rather like the idea of DQing those who don't vote.  And saying upfront in *bold red type* that it's going to happen.  Not a threat--a consequence. 

It shouldn't have to be that way, but sometimes contracts--even social ones--need enforcement for people to abide them.

Bah.

I only vote one.  So changing the rule to one person/one vote would not affect me.  With that in mind, I abstain from trying to persuade anyone on whether that should be codified or no.  I accept there are merits to both positions.  And that's an honest difference of opinion, there aren't any facts that suggest either answer is right or wrong in an absolute sense.


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## ned

not sure about non-voters being disqualified - what if their entry is amazing?

but would say that each voter should cast three votes.
that is just the right number to cover different genres that appeal in different ways.
entertaining, moving, humorous etc.... 

for me, just having one vote undermines the spirit of the competition.

just a suggestion - on the winner's announcement, name those entrants that didn't vote as a matter of course.


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## Chesters Daughter

I just wrote an entire essay that was absorbed into nowhere by my stupid piece of shit laptop. Just ugh.

The voting requirements have been altered quite a few times. After the holidays, we can revisit the issue in depth once again. I do agree with Phil that if you enter, you should have the common courtesy to read the entries and cast at least one vote. I feel it should be made a requirement for entering. If anyone runs into real life or device woes, a quick PM to me will excuse them for that month. Being me, I am also in favor of fingernail removal and electrodes being placed in the most uncomfortable sites possible. Even I can't enforce that one, though. 

Everyone who cares to speak their minds regarding this, really should. It would be appreciated. I rather like the ability to vote for as many as I feel, although I rarely choose more than two or three, and I do believe some people have skirted burst blood vessels in their brains because of it. Narrowing it down to one is sometimes extremely difficult and I do feel there may be some who just forgo voting entirely when they cannot decide before the poll closes. No votes at all help none of us. But this is not my challenge, it is our challenge, so discuss it, we will. I've some pliers and a car battery at the ready for those who decline to heed the requirement if we do decide that if you enter you must vote.

Ugh, my first post was far more eloquent. I hate this shitty laptop.


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## Chesters Daughter

PiP said:


> How will you enforce this? Will you make it part of the rules of entry? I agree with SAS there should me only one vote.



Missed this writing my tome. It will be included in the rules of entry, and boldly exclaimed in red that you risk being disqualified if you fail to vote. If it comes down to someone actually being booted for not voting, how good their piece is doesn't matter, you know you should vote, do it. Staff can check to see if anyone is voting for themselves or not voting at all, so going this route can be policed. It is also possible to show who voted for whom via the poll options, but doing that may cause more harm than good. Oh, so and so didn't vote for me, screw them from now on. Oh, I'm nervous that people will be angry at me for my choices, so I won't vote at all. You get the gist.


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## Firemajic

Chester's Daughter said:


> Missed this writing my tome. It will be included in the rules of entry, and boldly exclaimed in red that you risk being disqualified if you fail to vote. If it comes down to someone actually being booted for not voting, how good their piece is doesn't matter, you know you should vote, do it. Staff can check to see if anyone is voting for themselves or not voting at all, so going this route can be policed. It is also possible to show who voted for whom via the poll options, but doing that may cause more harm than good. Oh, so and so didn't vote for me, screw them from now on. Oh, I'm nervous that people will be angry at me for my choices, so I won't vote at all. You get the gist.





Right... I agree that damage could be done and feathers ruffled IF the voters were exposed...I think you are on the right track, putting a notice in the rules... also, we mentors need to encourage members to vote.. maybe mention it in the lounge ? often... would that be ok?


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## Olly Buckle

If you intend to name and shame; that little space that says something like 'new member' or 'mentor', could it be made to say 'Non-voter' for those who enter but fail to participate?


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## Firemajic

Maybe all participants of the poetry challenge should be require to  say "I voted" in the voting thread... ?


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## Olly Buckle

Olly Buckle said:


> If you intend to name and shame; that little space that says something like 'new member' or 'mentor', could it be made to say 'Non-voter' for those who enter but fail to participate?



Or possibly a series of 'negative' medals,
The Disenfranchised; the non-voter medal.
The Uncritical mass; a medal for those who never give crit.
The spit it out; for exhibiting poor taste
The Mi Mi; for those demanding crit.
The Precious; for those who can't take crit.

Not really, please, though I am sure you can think of a few more


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## Chesters Daughter

No badges for bad behavior. Hope dictates people may change. Saddling them with a stigma for a single mistake would be unfair, and possibly bias opinions toward them. It's participation we crave, not alienation. I'm thinking. Correction is necessary, but like moderation, to expose it sitewide would be overkill.


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## aj47

I don't think anything more than DQing them should happen if they don't vote.  Have it be matter-of-fact, and non-judgmental.  It's not about casting aspersions, it's about the process and having fair outcomes.


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## Olly Buckle

Chester's Daughter said:


> No badges for bad behavior. Hope dictates people may change. Saddling them with a stigma for a single mistake would be unfair, and possibly bias opinions toward them. It's participation we crave, not alienation. I'm thinking. Correction is necessary, but like moderation, to expose it sitewide would be overkill.



Sorry, playing to the gallery, of course you are right, it is not the way to get desirable results.


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## sas

My thumbs up (Michigan does have a thumb) for the poetry challenge rules would be for the following:

1. One vote
(screw those ties generated by multiple votes; just set your personal criteria and give points to each met)

2. Cannot vote for yourself

3. Those who entered and did not vote are disqualified from winning.
(Exceptions made by staff for valid reasons)

4. And, PLEASE stop showing where poems placed!! Show only 1st, 2nd, 3rd. 
(If I've learned nothing else in poetry groups, I have learned that poets are sensitive. I probably shouldn't even be amongst them. But, I'm sensitive enough to know that publically showing which poems got few votes serves absolutely no purpose. No wonder few enter this challenge. If we change nothing else, change that. I have always been shocked that you post it.)

sas


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## aj47

The poll results are automated.  I don't believe there's a setting for "show only the top three".


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## Olly Buckle

sas said:


> Show only 1st, 2nd, 3rd. ... poets are sensitive ... showing which poems got few votes serves no purpose.



True, everyone would like to think they are just outside the winning group, why rub it in?


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## sas

astroannie said:


> The poll results are automated.  I don't believe there's a setting for "show only the top three".



Well someone automated it. Disable it. I can't believe a poet even thought of showing all votes. Mean. Must have been a techie. Not kidding.


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## aj47

No, it's for all polls in the forum, not all poet polls.  We could keep the results totally hidden....


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## sas

astroannie said:


> No, it's for all polls in the forum, not all poet polls.  We could keep the results totally hidden....




A big big thumbs up for that from me!


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## Chesters Daughter

If we keep the results totally hidden, I would have to announce the winner(s).Poll options do not allow for selective reveals, it's all or nothing. Playing devil's advocate here with the following statement. Hate me if you will. Two words: thick skin. Without it, it's almost impossible to improve without knowing how we placed. I've placed at the bottom, I've placed at the top. When I bottom out, I wonder why, analyze, get my answers, and try harder. Anyone who enters at all has balls, and is a winner in the gonad growth department.We are placing ourselves at the mercy of our peers. In essence, that step of confidence toughens our skins. Cliche as it is, practice makes perfect, and everyone who enters is a winner for having the guts to put themselves out there. The best poem ever penned is nothing if it is not shared with others. The worst poem ever penned is a teaching tool for future efforts. My two cents. Disagreeing with me is fine.


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## Firemajic

I think we should remember the goal of all the challenges... to learn, improve and of course, have fun...no matter what decision is made, someone will be unhappy... I think we [ mentors] should work hard to promote all the challenges... encourage participation ... and I will offer my help if that is the direction you want to go...


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## Firemajic

20 VOTES!!!! TWENTY VOTES! How exciting.... Lisa, you may have to have a hissy fit every month....


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## Phil Istine

Personally, I would like to see how my peers rated my work, even if it achieves the fewest votes. I like to know when I need to up my game because I'm still not always the best judge of that with my own work.
I know I can turn out a decent poem, but I'm totally capable of writing trash too.


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## Darkkin

No one has ever turned into a pumpkin from viewing the poll...   Personally, I find them interesting, not distressing.  If a poet is going to be crushed because they didn't win a popular vote...That is a situation that is screaming for a reality check.

Entrants are not entitled to kid glove treatment.  It is a poetry challenge for crying out loud.  Emphasis on the challenge.  You need kid gloves and sugar pills head over to the Poetry Hill forum and let the big kids play.  It might not be kind to new or sensitive poets, but I'm going to say, grow up or shut up.  There are designated pools for the 'delicate and entitled'.  And the challenge forums are not among those places.

Ego verse reality...I'm placing my bet with reality.  Reality and writing wait for no one and I am at a point where I just want to scream.  Too often arguments are made for the whining, entitled few but who is going to stand up and say, 'Hey, there are protected zones for these folks.'  Play by those rules or play by those established.  If Sally feels slighted because results of a *public* poll don't glorify her than is that the forum's fault?  The voters?  Who can we blame because Sally feels bad?  Scapegoat reasoning.  Excuses.  Bullshit.  Rules in challenge forums should not be adjusted to accomodate a minority group that might feel slighted because they did not place as highly as they assumed they should.  Real world doesn't offer participation awards.


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## ned

how about -

3 votes mandatory - as said, it covers the genres - and usually, there are at least 3 outstanding poems, as I see it, and all deserve a vote.

full reveal of result - for reasons already given by CD.

on the winner's thread - thanking by name all those that voted.
not judging the non-voters (who may have missed the vote for any number of reasons)
but appreciating all those that did. - - 

and how about a badge for top voter?.......:cat:


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## PiP

We can only make 3 votes mandatory if there are more than four poems.


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## Darkkin

One vote.  One entry.  No vote, DQ entry.  It takes less than fifteen minutes.  Most of us can swing fifteen minutes sometime over the course of ten days.  One vote is practical and plausible, three, well...What if the reader likes only one poem? Lesser of the evils...How is that a viable tool?  It quite simply isn't.  It skews the perspective.

Sorry for being a hard ass on this, but reality needs to be a tangible factor in the Monthly Challenge.  The Hill and PiP are for testing boundaries, exploration, explaination, and feedback.  The Monthly has been and always will be a popularity contest.  It is a vote and as such it is the very nature of the beast.

Hold poets accountable.  You want to enter, you need to vote that simple.  One click.  It is the bare minimum of personal responsibility for this forums poets.  Votes should stay public as the challenge forum is not a 'safe zone'.  No kid gloves.  No excuses.  This is the polar opposite of the critique requisite suggestion...Personal responsibility verses free will.  Voting is easy and quick.  Critique whole different level of participation required.  Demanding critique is entitlement.  Demanding they vote.  Reasonible expectation.

- D.


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## Pete_C

I think one person, one vote. If genres differ, just make your mind up and vote. 

Participants should vote as a matter of common courtesy; if people can't be arsed, then make it mandatory if you want. If they really don't want to vote, then they shouldn't get involved. There's too much take without giving back as it is. If you care enough to enter, care enough to follow the process.

Show the results. So what if someone does a better job than you? It's a reality; suck it up.

Maybe some more feedback in the various threads would make it more socially active? I did leave a few comments on the first one I entered, and the response was that it was a strange thing to do. I don't see why; I'd rather have good feedback than not.

Anyway, does anyone really take part to win? It's all about having a prompt to force you to write something new!


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## Pete_C

Olly Buckle said:


> True, everyone would like to think they are just outside the winning group, why rub it in?



I don't think reality is 'rubbing it in'. I want to know if something I've written didn't work. I'll make sure I'm wearing my big boy pants when I look at the results!


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## Firemajic

I agree with DarKKin, only I am not as eloquent  WF has worked hard to meet all the needs of every skill level of every poet... I think it is a huge disservice to this challenge to loosen and tinker with the nuts and bolts...
 I do however like the 3 vote option. If you don't, then don't use all three votes. Because we work from a prompt, each poet uses it in a unique and creative way, I want the option to vote on my top 3 picks...


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## sas

Heck, let's give everyone a trophy.  That is what is the norm today: If a kid enters a race and ends up last they get a trophy. If they go to another's birthday party, they get a gift,too.   I am puking. (my daughter stopped giving presents to all attending birthday parties due to my vomit; who started that?; then others stopped)

One crosses the line first, or just stop this so-called contest. Why judge at all? And, I do not think who wrote them should be visible. Go back to anonymous. Too many friendships, although I think I can now tell who wrote what. 

(As an aside, after almost two years here, I know many REAL first names. I try not to use them, in open forum. I felt like an outsider when I first entered this group because of it. I beg you to refer with another's real name in private emails only)

I think more would enter if results, beyond first three places, were not posted. I am all for more competition. Less fear. If not posting all results helps with this, I'm a thumbs up! I learn from every single poem another has written, no matter where they place. It makes me think. I am grateful. I want to see more submissions. 

.


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## Ariel

The real issue with all challenges and contests on the forum is that the organizers should not have to throw hissy fits. They shouldn't have to defend themselves constantly, and they shouldn't have to beg and plead for the support they need to host these challenges. We're all very busy people with a lot of things going on. Many of the challenge hosts are moderators with even more duties stacked on. If you want to participate in these challenges then give up some time to judge or vote. Give up some time to support the people running these challenges instead of sitting on your ass and doing nothing. This forum isn't kept open just for staff--it's for the members too.


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## ned

thank you Pete, for getting to the heart of it.

"having a prompt to force you to write something new!"

absolutely - the challenge to write a decent poem within the constraints of the prompt and deadline are my motivation.

after posting, my ambition rises of course, but win or not, I am left with a new creation.

yes Pete, I questioned your excellent feedback in the challenge, because of its timing, not its worth.
hope you understand....


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## aj47

If it ever becomes more than one mandatory vote, I'm out.  Why?  Because I can always find the best poem, but I can't always find another worthy one and dayum, I ain't elevating slop because someone said I had to choose three.


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## Phil Istine

Posted by Chester's Daughter on the voting thread:



> _I normally add two days to the voting time at Chrtistmas. The twelve  days of...how very original of me, lol. Considering the Black Friday mad  rush, henceforth, I will also extend the November voting time by two  days to compensate the real life commitments. A member, who at the  moment will remain anonymous but I hope they will reveal themselves, has  made a brilliant suggestion that if you enter, it should be a  requirement that you take the time to cast at least one vote. To be  honest, I think such a requirement makes a great deal of sense when it  comes to courtesy and reciprocity. We are able to check whether or not  members have voted as well as to ensure they have not voted for  themselves._



I'm assuming this is about the PM sent to CD.  I didn't post it on the open forum because I felt it was better to let CD decide on whether or how to act on my suggestion without feeling under any pressure.


----------



## sas

astroannie said:


> If it ever becomes more than one mandatory vote, I'm out.  Why?  Because I can always find the best poem, but I can't always find another worthy one and dayum, I ain't elevating slop because someone said I had to choose three.




Astro..

I started to post the exact same sentiment, but thought maybe I was wrong to make a big deal over not wanting to be made to vote for three. But, damn, girl, you're right. I'm with you. I must be getting weak in my older years. I don't even tell my much loved grandgirls their writing is great if it isn't. Their other grandma is for that. A contest, by it's very nature, means meeting a standard. 

And, a poet can post their poem to workshop, after contest, to get a feel for how strong the work is. No one needs to see how many votes each poem received. I want no impediments to having many entries. I feel that is one of them. Otherwise, it's the same small group each month.


----------



## Pete_C

ned said:


> I questioned your excellent feedback in the challenge, because of its timing, not its worth.
> hope you understand....



It wasn't an issue, but I was slightly surprised as the voting thread instructions state: "All entries are eligible for critique which should be posted in this thread save for critique on entries that are posted on the secure board. I've created a thread for those who wish to critique secure entries which may be accessed here. Please be mindful of where your critique is being posted so that the first rights of entrants are not compromised."

I'm also aware of the existence of a critique thread for the secure entries, but have noted that no one uses either the voting thread or the secure crit thread, so figured after the comment that it wasn't the done thing. However, I think it should be used because some writers, on seeing low votes, will (apparently, according to other comments) be 'crushed'. That crushing feeling might be alleviated if they understood why they didn't rate highly.


----------



## Darkkin

Pete_C said:


> It wasn't an issue, but I was slightly surprised as the voting thread instructions state: "All entries are eligible for critique which should be posted in this thread save for critique on entries that are posted on the secure board. I've created a thread for those who wish to critique secure entries which may be accessed here. Please be mindful of where your critique is being posted so that the first rights of entrants are not compromised."
> 
> I'm also aware of the existence of a critique thread for the secure entries, but have noted that no one uses either the voting thread or the secure crit thread, so figured after the comment that it wasn't the done thing. However, I think it should be used because some writers, on seeing low votes, will (apparently, according to other comments) be 'crushed'. That crushing feeling might be alleviated if they understood why they didn't rate highly.




Catch-22 on offering feedback.  History has been consistent in showing the forum that those who are more inclined to be offended or deterred by merely viewing the votes are more likely to take a tool like critique as a personal attack and turn their frustrations on other members.  'Whose fault is it I didn't rate as highly as I should have?!  My piece has no flaws, so it must be someone's fault...'

People tend to get leery after being subjected to behavior like that.  It is the root of _why_ more members don't offer feedback on entry pieces.  Some of it is just plain lack of interest in topic content, as well.  Because again, you will have people who get huffy because poem X received comments and poem B (Sally's poem) did not.  _Insert drama of why Sally's perfect poem didn't win and why it didn't received any critique, nevermind that it is the perfect poem.  Comments neither needed nor wanted.  Praise is acceptable._

Personally, I critique and comment only if a poem catches my attention.  I am guilty of cherry picking, but to do so in a challenge thread ups the possibility of someone inciting drama as to why they didn't get comments.  That reaction possibility multipled by three, (most members are good about netiquette, but there are some who are not, roughly 3 in an average entry field of 15, who may be discourage or disgruntled).  Bear with my as this is all hypothetical.

For the most part there are two reactions to feedback.  Drama or indifference (no comments on feedback not even clicking thanks).  That poems are open to critique is fair.  A minimum vote of one is fair, and these are the absolute basics.  If others want to go above and beyond with critique, more power to them, but it will be an uphill battle because some don't want to improve or don't want to be bothered with knowing why.  All they want is praise and the win.  I like to know why things work or don't so I post to the forums after competition.

Take a look at the numbers...Average between ten and fifteen entries depending on the topic.  To be fair, all poems need critique.  Being an active member, one knows that there is potential for a flare up out of one or two if critique is not provided to all, or content is not what they felt it should be.  Roughly a third of the fifteen, say five people will take the time to comment on critique or click thanks.  That leaves about two thirds of the field that remains inert.  Doesn't hurt anything, but seems like a lot of effort for very little.  Of that field of ten, say two are rankled because of A the poll is open to public view, B their poem did not win, or C they were offended by critique and just didn't say anything to avoid the drama...

There are archetypes in every group.  Consistent statistics that rarely waiver.  And people will usually take action that is for their benefit.  If I can learn something from critiquing poem A and not poem B, I will put my effort where it has the most impact and benefit.  If I don't like a poem or don't understand it, I'm not going to comment.  Such actions are a catalyst for the reactions listed above.  Are those potential reactions worth the effort that goes into critique?  One round of PiP critique usually takes me a couple hours and that averages around ten enteries.  A field this size would take about three hours.

It just seems like when you put in the effort you end getting treated like chuck steak through a meat grinder.  You don't pander and coddle so instantly you're the bad guy.  It is a challenge thread, but the possibility of Sally being affronted is a primary concern.  The good of the potential one, to spite the efforts of the many.  It is that mind set that I struggle with.  And I can truly understand why members refrain from offering critique.

I have seen and particpated in critique groups and I know how beneficial they can be when the give is more than the take.  I would love to see that happen here, but I also know what the realities of writing and human nature tend toward.  Take, take, take...But the one thing they never take is time to consider or action to address a situation.

The vote is the minimum effort, but members need to be a catalyst for their own benefit by actively asking questions and posting.

- D.


----------



## midnightpoet

I've developed several thicknesses of alligator hide over the years, and it's really to the beginner's benefit to do the same.  Sorry, but if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.


----------



## Darkkin

midnightpoet said:


> I've developed several thicknesses of alligator hide over the years, and it's really to the beginner's benefit to do the same.  Sorry, but if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.




I have Turtle...


----------



## Chesters Daughter

The best solution for the allowable amount of votes is the one we're employing. If people choose to cast but a single vote, they may. If people want to vote for more, they may. If entrants wish to skip voting altogether, they may not, and that will be included in next month's opening post. If you enter and do not cast at least a single vote, your entry will be disqualified upon the closure of the poll. What I am suggesting is the easiest way to get this done. I was going to put a poll up, but we'll just go 'round and 'round discussing what we think is best. Multiple votes allows for just one, which makes half of us happy, and it also allows for multiple choices which makes the rest of us happy. As for obligatory voting for entrants, it is fair and that is that. If you don't want to read the other entries and choose at least one, then don't enter at all. In instances where you cannot cast a vote due to real life obligations/faulty connections or corrupt devices, and/or ill health, it is up to you to inform me before the poll closes. I will not chase after those who forgo voting, if you enter and still have not voted upon the close of the poll and have not contacted me with a reason, you will automatically be disqualified from the challenge. Once the poll reveals the results, it's a done deal. I hate to sound like such a stubborn stone, but I do not want this to turn into a fifteen page discussion that ultimately ends up nowhere due to our disagreeing with one another. If anyone feels I'm unfit to run the challenge, I will hand it over to any suitable candidate who feels they can do a superior job.


----------



## Darkkin

You're not being stubborn.  You're being fair and holding members accountable for minmum responsibility.  It was the recommendation of concealing poll results that irratated me...Seriously, big kids pool.  If seeing one's piece at the bottom of the heap is that traumatising, one needs to consider if they are ready for public interaction.  The internet, life in general don't pander to the meek or overly sensitive.  Yes, we all have soft spots, but those with sense know the sting passes.  It is not the end of the world.  If it is, then reality check...

And if something in a critique twinges, be adult about it.  Stand up and address the issue with the piece, defend, define, discuss.  It is about the *writing* not the writer, both sides.  Critique and critiqued.


----------



## Pete_C

Darkkin said:


> Catch-22 on offering feedback.  History has been consistent in showing the forum that those who are more inclined to be offended or deterred by merely viewing the votes are more likely to take a tool like critique as a personal attack and turn their frustrations on other members.  'Whose fault is it I didn't rate as highly as I should have?!  My piece has no flaws, so it must be someone's fault...'
> 
> People tend to get leery after being subjected to behavior like that.  It is the root of _why_ more members don't offer feedback on entry pieces.  Some of it is just plain lack of interest in topic content, as well.  Because again, you will have people who get huffy because poem X received comments and poem B (Sally's poem) did not.  _Insert drama of why Sally's perfect poem didn't win and why it didn't received any critique, nevermind that it is the perfect poem.  Comments neither needed nor wanted.  Praise is acceptable._
> 
> Personally, I critique and comment only if a poem catches my attention.  I am guilty of cherry picking, but to do so in a challenge thread ups the possibility of someone inciting drama as to why they didn't get comments.  That reaction possibility multipled by three, (most members are good about netiquette, but there are some who are not, roughly 3 in an average entry field of 15, who may be discourage or disgruntled).  Bear with my as this is all hypothetical.
> 
> For the most part there are two reactions to feedback.  Drama or indifference (no comments on feedback not even clicking thanks).  That poems are open to critique is fair.  A minimum vote of one is fair, and these are the absolute basics.  If others want to go above and beyond with critique, more power to them, but it will be an uphill battle because some don't want to improve or don't want to be bothered with knowing why.  All they want is praise and the win.  I like to know why things work or don't so I post to the forums after competition.
> 
> Take a look at the numbers...Average between ten and fifteen entries depending on the topic.  To be fair, all poems need critique.  Being an active member, one knows that there is potential for a flare up out of one or two if critique is not provided to all, or content is not what they felt it should be.  Roughly a third of the fifteen, say five people will take the time to comment on critique or click thanks.  That leaves about two thirds of the field that remains inert.  Doesn't hurt anything, but seems like a lot of effort for very little.  Of that field of ten, say two are rankled because of A the poll is open to public view, B their poem did not win, or C they were offended by critique and just didn't say anything to avoid the drama...
> 
> There are archetypes in every group.  Consistent statistics that rarely waiver.  And people will usually take action that is for their benefit.  If I can learn something from critiquing poem A and not poem B, I will put my effort where it has the most impact and benefit.  If I don't like a poem or don't understand it, I'm not going to comment.  Such actions are a catalyst for the reactions listed above.  Are those potential reactions worth the effort that goes into critique?  One round of PiP critique usually takes me a couple hours and that averages around ten enteries.  A field this size would take about three hours.
> 
> It just seems like when you put in the effort you end getting treated like chuck steak through a meat grinder.  You don't pander and coddle so instantly you're the bad guy.  It is a challenge thread, but the possibility of Sally being affronted is a primary concern.  The good of the potential one, to spite the efforts of the many.  It is that mind set that I struggle with.  And I can truly understand why members refrain from offering critique.
> 
> I have seen and particpated in critique groups and I know how beneficial they can be when the give is more than the take.  I would love to see that happen here, but I also know what the realities of writing and human nature tend toward.  Take, take, take...But the one thing they never take is time to consider or action to address a situation.
> 
> The vote is the minimum effort, but members need to be a catalyst for their own benefit by actively asking questions and posting.
> 
> - D.



First off, Darkkin, I couldn't have said this better myself. I want to stress that what I'm about to say is in no way a criticism of you, or those who run the challenge, or other participants. If anything, it's a rage against a few who won't contribute to discussions like this but will act hurt and disenfranchised if they don't get a pat on the back for fuck all!

What the situation seems to be, in essence (or how I read it), is that the challenge could maybe be enhanced, it could offer greater benefits to a wider variety of participants, it could grow and do some good for new and experienced writers alike, it could be positive in helping writers to hone their craft, but because a few selfish pricks - who won't get involved but will spoil the process for others if they feel they aren't being pandered to - the solution is to not push the matter because it makes for an easier life!

Really?

Isn't the better answer to say, 'screw them' and go for it? Let's be honest, any writer who has such demands and pretensions isn't going to hack it anyway, so why are we shackling others for those who'd rather get hysterical and hold their breath and get constipated instead of improving?

Yes, I know the general consensus is to pamper to the fragile, but that isn't how the world really works. 

Okay, back to normal. I just wanted to say that!


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Aw honey, hiding the results wasn't to keep everyone all warm and fluffy, it was to eliminate the very remote possibility of influence. Ooh, look, this one got a lot of votes, let me jump on board so I'm part of the majority. Then there's the even worse and even more remote possibility of hmm, if I vote this way, I can cause a tie, or break a tie. If someone is tied for first and intends to vote for the person they are tied with, the devil may just convince them that they shouldn't vote for the piece they like because they will put themselves in second. Not seeing keeps temptation to a minimum. I'm not saying anyone here would ever stoop to such things, but there is no sure way to know what lurks in the hearts of men. And then there's the newcomers who we do not know at all. Better safe than sorry, lol.


----------



## Darkkin

Concealment during the voting, I get.  It is when all is said and done, just reveal the win and the top three, nothing else...The idea that by revealing the end results, it was rubbing salt on wounds.  The vote is a gauge of readers' perceptions and preferences toward a topic and certain styles.  It gives writers insight into the reader's reactions.  That is a tool all writers should have access to.   It was the suggestion that that tool be taken from the writers to spare the feeling of one or two individuals that was behind my rant.    Influencing a vote, totally different and much needed reason for concealment.


----------



## midnightpoet

You may live in New York, but you sound like a "Steel Magnolia" to me (well bless your heart).


----------



## Pete_C

Chester's Daughter said:


> there is no sure way to know what lurks in the hearts of men.



My money's on evil!


----------



## Firemajic

I am so glad that I have the privilege of voting for as many as I want... I respect those who only vote for one, and I admire their restraint... but I  always eat more than my share of chocolates....and will sneak a piece from anyone's private stash....


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Darkkin said:


> Concealment during the voting, I get.  It is when all is said and done, just reveal the win and the top three, nothing else...The idea that by revealing the end results, it was rubbing salt on wounds.  The vote is a gauge of readers' perceptions and preferences toward a topic and certain styles.  It gives writers insight into the reader's reactions.  That is a tool all writers should have access to.   It was the suggestion that that tool be taken from the writers to spare the feeling of one or two individuals that was behind my rant.    Influencing a vote, totally difference and much needed reason for concealment.



Unfortunately, there's no way to reveal partial results, it's all or nothing. I could speak with Kevin in the future regarding this issue, but he currently has his hands quite full. Salt in the wound is a natural reaction to those who walk away with few votes, I've been at the bottom more times than I care to count. It hurts, but that hurt should be used as a tool. We compensate for the rubbing of the salt on the raw by allowing everyone to post their piece either to the Poetry board or Workshop. If one's work does poorly, anyone can take it and post it and ask their peers what's so horrible about it, and once they know, that salt becomes a tool to keep them from leaving themselves open to the same wound again.


----------



## Phil Istine

Chester's Daughter said:


> The best solution for the allowable amount of votes is the one we're employing. If people choose to cast but a single vote, they may. If people want to vote for more, they may. If entrants wish to skip voting altogether, they may not, and that will be included in next month's opening post. If you enter and do not cast at least a single vote, your entry will be disqualified upon the closure of the poll. <SNIP>



Sounds about right to me


----------



## Phil Istine

Chester's Daughter said:


> Aw honey, hiding the results wasn't to keep everyone all warm and fluffy, it was to eliminate the very remote possibility of influence. Ooh, look, this one got a lot of votes, let me jump on board so I'm part of the majority. Then there's the even worse and even more remote possibility of hmm, if I vote this way, I can cause a tie, or break a tie. If someone is tied for first and intends to vote for the person they are tied with, the devil may just convince them that they shouldn't vote for the piece they like because they will put themselves in second. Not seeing keeps temptation to a minimum. I'm not saying anyone here would ever stoop to such things, but there is no sure way to know what lurks in the hearts of men. And then there's the newcomers who we do not know at all. Better safe than sorry, lol.



There was a time when some (former) members used sock puppet accounts to bump up their vote count.


----------



## sas

Phil Istine said:


> There was a time when some (former) members used sock puppet accounts to bump up their vote count.



WTF?  Is there a money prize?  Someone's holding out on me.  This is laughable and pathetic.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Last call for alcohol for all who desire to render us happily drunk with their poetic prowess. There are only nine hours remaining to enter this month's challenge.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

I've recreated the poll, and this one actually works as it should. Please see new thread, the old one is pulled, and cast your votes. Thank you.

https://www.writingforums.com/threads/174907-quot-Christmas-Reservation(s)-quot-Voting-Thread


----------



## Darkkin

Voted...Ditto...


----------



## ned

was there sabotage of the voting thread?

I blame the single vote faction - you know who you are.......


----------



## aj47

ned said:


> was there sabotage of the voting thread?



Christmas shoes.


----------



## Pelwrath

What criteria do we use for voting? Just a simple “does  it meet the prompt”?


----------



## jenthepen

Pel. look at all the poems as a casual reader and pick the ones that affect you the most - just like you would pick favourite poems from a book. Then vote for the one/ones that worked for you. This vote is purely subjective.


----------



## Phil Istine

Pelwrath said:


> What criteria do we use for voting? Just a simple “does  it meet the prompt”?



That would be one consideration, though one person might accept a more tenuous link than another.
Other criteria are very much voter's opinion.


----------



## aj47

The prompt is always open to interpretation ... so different poets will meet the challenge in differing ways.  As a voter, you get to set the criteria on what you consider the best poem(s) to be and vote accordingly.  It's secret, so you don't have to share your criteria or which got your vote(s).  Vote your conscience is all.  

If it takes you awhile to decide, that's fine.    If you know right away a certain poem or few deserve your vote, that's fine, too.


----------



## andrewclunn

Also no self voting.


----------



## Pete_C

I only just spotted the rerun of voting before disappearing for a break for the festive season and a focus on a project. Given the 'must vote' rule, which I agree with, a more prominent announcement of the 'start again' might be helpful.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Pete_C said:


> I only just spotted the rerun of voting before disappearing for a break for the festive season and a focus on a project. Given the 'must vote' rule, which I agree with, a more prominent announcement of the 'start again' might be helpful.



I concur. Had I an ounce of common sense, I would have made mention of the obligatory voting in my opening post when the challenge was opened. That said, I’ll be sure to do so in the future. Since I did not sufficiently warn entrants of the new policy thereby depriving all of possibly deciding to bow out, I will not hold this month’s entrants to an obligatory vote. Free pass, but come next month, I will enforce the rule. I apologize for screwing up.

Merry Christmas to all, and to all, a good write. Please do vote if you’re able.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

*If you’ve entered January’s challenge, please be sure to cast a vote before the poll closes in eight hours or your entry will be disqualified.*


----------



## andrewclunn

Are we to assume that CrimsonAngel223's poem here

is indeed title "A Touch of Grace" ?


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Unless a title is clearly indicated, poems without evident titles are listed as "untitled" in the poll.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Slowly I crept out of my crypt silently slithering past the slumbering pit bulls just to poke my cohorts. All kidding aside, my sweetie pies, I know many of our regulars are very occupied with NaProWriMo, my hat’s off to every participant for their unwavering commitment, but the challenge closes in a little more than five hours. I thought it best I post a reminder for those who are intending to enter. No pressure, me dears, but I wouldn’t want anyone to miss out because of a forgotten clock that never misses a tick tock. Many thanks to those who have already entered.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Psst...we’ve a great topic. Where is everyone? Busy creating masterpieces I pray.


----------



## midnightpoet

Everyone's muse is exhausted from April efforts they all took a rest at a spa?:icon_joker:I've got one coming.


----------



## andrewclunn

I would like to formally request an extension.  I have a piece that I've been working on for this month, but which is solely on my laptop at home, and I am on central time and there is no way I'll get home in time to post it by the 7PM EST deadline.  If I could be allowed an extension of just a few hours that would be sufficient, but I understand if that's a bad precedent to set.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Sorry Andrew, having connectivity issues, just saw this. It does set an unfavorable precedent, but if it's ready as in right now, please PM it to me and I'll allow you to enter. I need to have it before I set up the poll which is late for the first time ever because of my connectivity issues. Hate Fios. Ugh. I appreciate that you made the request public so everyone understands the method to my madness, but you should have PMed me also. I would have seen the request much quicker. I'm going to PM you now, also.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Oy, Andrew, you're killing me here. They are shutting our connection down for twelve hours, I need to get this poll up and running before then. I can give you fifteen minutes more, but then I have to proceed with the poll at which time I will no longer be able to accommodate you.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Apologies, love, but time is running short and I don't want the poll waiting another 12 hours so I must proceed.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Yoo-hoo...challenge entries in all shapes and sizes I am seeking to find you! Where is everybody this month? Time waits for no poet...tick...tock...tick...tock...


----------



## Pelwrath

There are a bunch of excellent entries this month. Varied in style, form, and interpretation. I want to offer all a hardy Well Done!


----------



## PiP

Please note the Monthly Poetry Challenge and Pip have now been moved to the WF Challenge, Contest and prompts category


----------



## Pelwrath

This Bell challenge has been frustrating. Two started draft's and two deleted started draft's.


----------



## Phil Istine

Pelwrath said:


> This Bell challenge has been frustrating. Two started draft's and two deleted started draft's.



I needed to rewrite a chunk too, but got somewhere in the end.
Sometimes I write several part-versions and end up posting nothing, so at least I'm over that hurdle this time.
Do you ever find yourself wondering which version is better?


----------



## Pelwrath

Yeah, I looked at my notes and  saw something which became what I posted for the contest. Letting it sit and then a nights sleep helped. Sometimes but not as often as earlier in my writing.


----------



## J.J. Maxx

Is the January Challenge 'bow' or 'bow'?

~ J. J.


----------



## Gumby

I had that same brief thought, JJ. I'm guessing it is whichever you want it to be.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

As the opening post states: “You are free to interpret the prompt any way you wish.” It’s either, choice is yours. I believe the duality was part of its appeal to our dear Phil.


----------



## Phil Istine

Yes, I intentionally chose a prompt with multiple meanings in order to encourage a variety of poems.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Where for art our esteemed poets this fine month?


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Hello me lovelies whom I adore with every iota of my being, anal as I am, I have to post a reminder here. Henceforth, all challenge entries must be submitted to me and posted anonymously. Please peruse the _*update to the challenge rules*_ at your earliest convenience. I also implore everyone to read my *opening challenge post* in entirety, yes, I am actually asking you to read the whole boring thing, to make this transition as painless as possible. I thank you all heartily in advance. Now off I go to watch my inbox in anticipation of your coveted communications.


----------



## andrewclunn

Excellent!  Very happy about the rule change.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Yes, I'm putting it here, too. A little saturation is befitting for April:

*IMPORTANT NOTICE: We've a new update to the rules. Henceforth, kindly refrain from using the "like" function, or offering critique on any of the entries, UNTIL OUR WINNER IS ANNOUNCED. We are implementing this policy in an effort to protect anonymity as well as to spare our entrants the agony of being unable to respond to any critique they may receive for what could conceivably seem like eons. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
*


----------



## -xXx-

silence,
independent of napo?
pls.n.thx,


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Greetings and salutations to our very busy poets. I know many are occupied with NaPoWriMo, so I feel disgustingly guilty for being such a whiny beggar, but it’s the 12th and the challenge has but one entry. I fully comprehend and accept that April often leaves the challenge a little neglected, but I figured there might be a chance that few are watching the clock given the intense pressure they’re under, so I’m posting this reminder for those who intend to enter. We’ve but three days remaining ere the cut-off. Sorry for yanking you from your creative marathon to read this, but one can never blame an anal host for trying, lol.


----------



## Phil Istine

Chesters Daughter said:


> Greetings and salutations to our very busy poets. I know many are occupied with NaPoWriMo, so I feel disgustingly guilty for being such a whiny beggar, but it’s the 12th and the challenge has but one entry. I fully comprehend and accept that April often leaves the challenge a little neglected, but I figured there might be a chance that few are watching the clock given the intense pressure they’re under, so I’m posting this reminder for those who intend to enter. We’ve but three days remaining ere the cut-off. Sorry for yanking you from your creative marathon to read this, but one can never blame an anal host for trying, lol.



Hopefully CD will forgive my addendum, but I would like to say that a challenge entry can be used as one of the thirty poems.  After the challenge voting has finished (and not until then, because it would identify you as the author) the challenge poem may be placed in your NaPo folder (or wherever you are placing your NaPo poems).


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Thanks so much, you guys who know who you are! \\/


----------



## unveiledartist

I do have a question as I'm reading. Where is the poll we vote on before submitting our entries?


----------



## Darkkin

The current monthly challenge closed to entiries on 4/15.  You will have to wait until May's challenge opens.  As to the voting poll that is here.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Hugs for Darkkin! Thank you, sweetie.

Speaking of the poll, it will close in a little less than seven hours. It will automatically lock at 7:29EST. For any who are engaging in procrastination, please make yourselves heard in a timely fashion. Danke, me dears.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

I would like to extend my heartfelt gratitude to the Mentors and members who have worked together to lovingly revive the Poetry board. I won’t name names for you are many, but you all know who you are. It feels like old times, guys, and you’ve all worked side by side to restore our home. I can never repay the debt you are owed, but please know my thanks are eternal. Group hug for my sweetie pies!


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Friendly reminder! (Translation: some hopefully fruitful poking and prodding from a desperate beggar) There are a mere 8.5 hours left to enter this month’s challenge.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Yoo hoo...why have you all left me with naught to do? Idle hands do the devil’s bidding, please keep me occupied so I won’t sentence myself to an eternity of bathing in brimstone. Time is ticking, my darlings, please PM me some entries. Pretty please, with vodka on top.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

The beggar’s back. Pesky little bugger, aren’t I? We’ve a smidge over 24 hours left to vote. I know ‘tis the season for frolicking outside beneath our loving sun, but I implore anyone who has the time to *please participate.
*
Many thank you’s in advance, me dears.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Just a reminder for all of those who are planning on entering this month’s challenge, there are but 32 hours left before the quarry is closed. You wouldn’t want your rocks and stones to go homeless, now would you?


----------



## Mish

I can't wait to see what wonderful interpretations everyone will come up with for my prompt!


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Yoo hoo...why for you bury me in the cold, cold ground? Where is everyone with their entries? Me joints are creakin’ from lack of use. Help a desperate whiny beggar out, pretty please.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Just a friendly reminder (translation: Lisa is back to beg again): 

There are but nine hours remaining to enter this month’s challenge.


----------



## Phil Istine

Chesters Daughter said:


> Just a friendly reminder (translation: Lisa is back to beg again):
> 
> There are but nine hours remaining to enter this month’s challenge.



Sorry, I did write part of a poem for the challenge but couldn't get my head around finishing it.  I tried writing it from the POV of Anne Boleyn as a letter to Henry VIII.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

I’m at my granddaughter’s birthday bash, I’ll get the poll up at around ten. Apologies for the delay, my darlings. Bad Lisa.


----------



## Olly Buckle

Chesters Daughter said:


> I’m at my granddaughter’s birthday bash, I’ll get the poll up at around ten. Apologies for the delay, my darlings. Bad Lisa.



I did that about three weeks ago. It is a perfectly acceptable excuse for missing almost anything, and better fun than almost everything. I was going to say 'depending on how old they are', but if they are still young enough to want Gran there it's bound to be great.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Here lives a lass named CD
who dabbles in poetry
but prompts she can’t choose
so she’s wallowed in booze
please save her ere she OD’s

I warned you guys I suck at prompts. Here it is the sixth, and my inbox suffers a plague of cobwebs. I hope I haven’t sabotaged this month’s challenge with my shitty choice.


----------



## andrewclunn

Chesters Daughter said:


> Here lives a lass named CD
> who dabbles in poetry
> but prompts she can’t choose
> so she’s wallowed in booze
> please save her ere she OD’s
> 
> I warned you guys I suck at prompts. Here it is the sixth, and my inbox suffers a plague of cobwebs. I hope I haven’t sabotaged this month’s challenge with my shitty choice.



Every time I have a decent idea related to it I make a note and think... should I save this idea for April?  I'm going to need a lot of ideas for April.  End confession.


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## Phil Istine

Chesters Daughter said:


> Here lives a lass named CD
> who dabbles in poetry
> but prompts she can’t choose
> so she’s wallowed in booze
> please save her ere she OD’s
> 
> I warned you guys I suck at prompts. Here it is the sixth, and my inbox suffers a plague of cobwebs. I hope I haven’t sabotaged this month’s challenge with my shitty choice.



Well, I've made a start on my entry, but I'm having to stretch the imagination 

CD chooses prompt
justice's servility
rule by plebiscite
​No, that's not it


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## Chesters Daughter

I had a copy and paste disaster and did not post the final line of *Mercy In Nature*. I’ve since remedied my mistake, but implore those who have already read to revisit the entry in its entirety.

My sincere apologies to the entrant.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Just a friendly reminder that there are but eight hours remaining to *vote* for the entries in this month’s challenge.


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## Chesters Daughter

There are but 30 hours remaining to enter this month’s challenge, and we’ve but one entry. Given the tumultuous times holding us all hostage, it’s quite understandable that participation has so significantly tapered off for a multitude of reasons. That said, I thought it best of post this reminder in the hopes that perhaps a few may have lost track of time. Thanks for thine eyes, guys.


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## Chesters Daughter

There is but a wee bit over eight hours left to _*vote*_ for this month’s challenge entries. One and all are welcome!


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## Chesters Daughter

Yoo hoo, most wonderful entrants, I am seeking to find you! We’ve but a wee bit over 48 hours until the challenge closes. Has no one some drama to share?


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## rcallaci

*IMPORTANT NOTICE: We've a new update to the rules. Henceforth, kindly refrain from using the "like" function, or offering critique on any of the entries, UNTIL OUR WINNER IS ANNOUNCED. We are implementing this policy in an effort to protect anonymity as well as to spare our entrants the agony of being unable to respond to any critique they may receive for what could conceivably seem like eons. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.*

Hello is anyone out there! Is the mic on... where are all you poets hiding –well at least I know Lisa is listening...put on your reading glasses as this piece is going to go long. 

It appears to me that the poet competition is in dire straits. My little commentary to come is in no way a rebuke to Lisa our wonderful poet and host. You have given your heart, blood, and soul to this competition and hopefully you will continue to do so. You are one of WFs jewels and kept this beast running well after its prime.  

Before I start tooting my horn let me briefly tell you who the hell I am so some of you who never heard of me don’t spit on my suggestions. I’ve been on this site since its inception. I did the first critique on the first poem written by WFs creator and wrote the second poem on this site. I was one of the founders of the first Poet Lm and the first to judge the competition along with a few others. I also ran two other poetry sites and was also the first moderator of this site as well. So what I’m trying to say is I have some grasp on what a poet competition is about, now to the guts of this piece.

I put the new rules on top mainly because I totally and respectfully disagree wholeheartedly with them. I believe that while it was meant to improve the competition it further hindered it. The proof is in the further dwindling of entrees upon implementation.

Poets don’t need to be coddled or protected, what coddling does is retard the poets progress. If a poet or writer can’t handle negative critique or hurt feelings than poetry or writing in public is not for you.  Using the like function and critiquing the poem in the bard’s bistro creates poetic dialogue and that is what is truly lacking in the competitions current state. Also I see no reason why the entrant can’t comment back to those who critiqued him before the vote. Will the vote be influenced? Of course it will to an extent but so what. It surly will create a dialogue about process and make the bistro a lively place, of course with Lisa as the friendly moderator, as there is never a need to go off the rails or be a trollish fool. 

As for anonymity although it makes for a nice guessing game that’s all its good for. If is a poet is intimidated by a more experienced poets entry and refuses to enter out of that fear than that poet is not ready to write in a public forum. They need to embrace their fear and look on it as a fun challenge that will help them grow as a poet. Not an anonymous hide and seek. They need to know that poetry is subjective and it doesn’t matter who the hell is writing the poem or if the vote will be skewed in the popular poet’s favor. It’s all about the joy of poetry, the fun that good competition brings, the dialogue, understanding the entrants’ technique, use of form, hearing the poet’s poetic voice. Winning is a bonus not the end all. 

Judging of course is the best solution but judges are a chore to find on a consistent basis, especially now since the poets on this site has shrunk. So forget about judges. 


In a nutshell:

Reintroduce to like button.

Allow poets to critique the entrees and the entrants to respond before the vote in the bard’s bistro. Examine the pieces. It will be moderated – useless badgering or hateful critique will be erased.  

Do away with anonymity

It all about poetic dialogue-and of course fun...

Feel free to offer your views or ways to revive this wonderful competition...


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## Gumby

Thank you, bob! This discussion is long overdue.


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## Firemajic

Changing the rules for the poetry challenge MIGHT generate a few more entries, but the lack of interest in the monthly poetry challenge is, in my opinion, a symptom of a larger problem...

and I said this with all due respect and love ....


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## PiP

Thanks, Bob. Yes, this discussion is long overdue. We tried a new approach and it didn't work. Time to move on before this challenge dies like Poet's in progress.


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## PiP

Firemajic said:


> Changing the rules for the poetry challenge MIGHT generate a few more entries, but the lack of interest in the monthly poetry challenge is, in my opinion, a symptom of a larger problem...
> 
> a.


ola, fire!  what is the larger problem?


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## Firemajic

rcallaci said:


> *
> 
> It’s all about the joy of poetry, the fun that good competition brings, the dialogue, understanding the entrants’ technique, use of form, hearing the poet’s poetic voice. Winning is a bonus not the end all.
> 
> Judging of course is the best solution but judges are a chore to find on a consistent basis, especially now since the poets on this site has shrunk. So forget about judges.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It all about poetic dialogue-and of course fun...
> *


*



I don't think it is ONE thing, but a combination of a few things....

rcallaci mentioned a few, there are not many new poets around or that stay around and are participating on the open poetry board...

The open poetry board has been stagnant for some time, and the few that do post there, do not seem interested in commenting and critiquing other poet's work...

Maybe we should try to make the open poetry board more relaxed, fun and inviting... exciting... we need to create a space where the passion for poetry is alive, nurtured... and in time, the passion for poetry will return, and the monthly poetry challenge will thrive .... 

I am not doing well .. expressing my feelings about this... poetry is my passion, but it is hard to stay passionate about poetry if the flame is not fed....*


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## rcallaci

we just need to do things one step at a time... we start in spots such as this poetry comp, and in the open boards and try to elicit dialogue. Everything goes in ebbs and flows - now the poetry boards are in a down loop but with some serious tweaks I believe those hidden poets will show their faces. It's nice to hear from you grasshopper]


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## Firemajic

I agree, Maestro....  however, if we can get more activity, get the poet's excited, then the poetry challenge will thrive....

I like the idea of opening critique as soon as a poem is posted in the challenge, and I do loooove to use my "like" button...

I am willing and chomping at my poetic bit to pull on my cowgirl boots and wade back into the fray....


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## petergrimes

I personally would have never have entered if it wasn't anonymous, I do not enter the writing competitions for this reason. But I am new and inexperienced, lack confidence. I workshop my poems after the competition (if I've managed to write a half decent one). I first entered in May and the poem I wrote for it has just been accepted for publication. Its my first published piece of work. I wouldn't have written it without the 'Holy Darkness' prompt. I now even enter if I have not even written a good poem, for I enjoy it, its fun to try to write something on a random topic and not have to worry about crit, just have fun writing it, do something you know is unfashionable but still like. Obviously I respect rcallaci's opinion and knowledge of what it was like before. But I don't think I'd enter if it was not anonymous. However I'm not saying that others won't. I do agree that anything that can be done to reinvigorate the boards and the comp would be very welcome. All the best PG


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## andrewclunn

Personally i think alternating between an anonymous poetry competition and something more akin to the pip competition that was entirely built around revision and improvement, would work best.  Poetry was going gangbusters, so we kept expending it to make room, then when it shrunk, all the open spaces we made now feel empty.


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## rcallaci

andrewclunn said:


> Personally i think alternating between an anonymous poetry competition and something more akin to the pip competition that was entirely built around revision and improvement, would work best.  Poetry was going gangbusters, so we kept expending it to make room, then when it shrunk, all the open spaces we made now feel empty.



This is an excellant solution. Best of both worlds- anonymous one month to satisfy those poets Like peter who want to just write for the fun of it without the crit or those who lack the confidence and those suggestions I put out.


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## Chesters Daughter

Inclement weather and a transformer explosion took my Fios out. Really bad timing, it would seem. Bob, thank you for not ignoring the elephant in the room. The challenge is terminally ill, and if we do not treat its maladies, it will succumb sooner than later. First, I accept the lion’s share of the blame for the current state of affairs. I have not been a good example as an active participant for far too long, and I failed to stoke the remaining embers as I should have. Unfortunately, I have much stuff going on in real life, and although I did fight the good fight of trying to turn things around on the boards for a very long time, I made no progress, became frustrated and disheartened, and eventually withdrew. I suck, and I’m sorry. Julia, it’s wonderful to hear from you, I’ve missed you terribly. I really wish you’d elaborate on what you feel is wrong, if not here in the thread, then via PM. You know how much I value veteran input. 

I was never too keen on doing away the “likes” to keep influence out of the picture, or disallowing entrant rebuttal to critique, but the latter was necessary to protect anonymity. Back in the day, everyone posted their own work, it was discussed at length, and yes, people were likely influenced, but is that such a devastating circumstance? The challenge is supposed to work in the same capacity as the boards, and they should share the common goal of teaching. Allowing discussion during the course of the challenge can only serve to teach, and while people’s opinions of an entry may change during that discourse, it will be gratis of information that has been shared. None of us are here are sheep, and all of us have opinions, and we all know what the deal is with those, lol, but in trading opinions, as well as offering  explanations of concrete poetic devices that may or may not work, lessons will be learned. 

The challenge has become so ordered, it is no longer as friendly, or nearly as conducive to the trade of information as it once was, so it therefore no longer accomplishes its initial intended purpose. I’m on board for a good old fashioned overhaul whatever it may bring. We can try things, and if they don’t produce desirable results, we can swap them out. That said, we must continue this discussion and decide what road is best traveled together. We can put the challenge on hiatus for a month or two while we kick the crap out of each other thanks to opposing inclinations, oh I’m sorry, I meant further discuss our future.

The challenge was Baron’s baby for a long time, and when he handed me the baton, I took the task very seriously. We owe it to his memory, especially me for he taught me via PM, and I know I’m not alone in being the recipient of such tutelage, to do everything in our power to keep the challenge alive. That said, should there be a more lively and capable candidate for host, I will gladly step aside for the greater good. Thank you again, Sir Callaci. She is wasting away before my eyes, and I was too heartbroken and in to much denial to bring it into the spotlight. I’m an idiot.


----------



## rcallaci

Chesters Daughter said:


> The challenge was Baron’s baby for a long time, and when he handed me the baton, I took the task very seriously. We owe it to his memory, especially me for he taught me via PM, and I know I’m not alone in being the recipient of such tutelage, to do everything in our power to keep the challenge alive. That said, should there be a more lively and capable candidate for host, I will gladly step aside for the greater good. Thank you again, Sir Callaci. She is wasting away before my eyes, and I was too heartbroken and in to much denial to bring it into the spotlight. I’m an idiot.



lisa

You're no idiot, in fact if not for you this challenge would have been dead a while ago. Before Baron was an owner he was passionate about the challenge. The first to judge. It was me and a few others who created the challenge in the first place and I will not let it die a bad death or any death at all. 

I'm quite happy that you are on board and I can see no other poet better qualified to remain the host . We all burn out or lose the passion when we see no one around us has it as well. But you kept the flame running and that is all that matters. 

Lets keep this discussion going - I do like the alternate path -one month anonymous  with the like button and the next month a mixture of the pip( minus the judges) with ongoing critiques  before and after. 

If you want to hold off a month on the comp that's entirely your decision- this is your baby  - whatever your comfortable with.

I'm quite relieved that your on board-Your mentor baron would be quite proud of you....

warmest
bob


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## Chesters Daughter

Aw Bob, thank you for such kind words. One month on and one month off with anonymous entries sounds perfect to me. Props to Peter, he’s a very fine addition to the challenge, and he’s extremely witty. He came forward for all of those who are more comfortable with anonymity. I was too shy to enter the challenge when I was starting out, it was only with Baron’s prompting that I finally did so, but by then, I’d developed some nominal skills and some thicker skin, lol. 

As long as we’ve a concrete plan, there’s no need for a hiatus. So we’re allowing “likes” and discussion, yes? And we have to decide whether next month will be anonymous or not. I must ask a favor, though. Juls addresses you as Maestro with superb reason, would you be willing to open a discussion of the entries once things are rolling? You were awesome in Poets in Progress. With a little push, and a fine example of what’s expected, I believe many will be enticed to join in. Your crit has always been on the money and delivered in a fashion that goes down like honey.


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## rcallaci

Chesters Daughter said:


> would you be willing to open a discussion of the entries once things are rolling.



Have no problem with that. I'll make it a habit to put in my two cents lol


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## Chesters Daughter

Thank you, Bob, a little hope goes a long way! Anonymous or not next month?


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## Darkkin

Chesters Daughter said:


> Thank you, Bob, a little hope goes a long way! Anonymous or not next month?



I'm going to chime in with a not...(By the way, I love the alternating format month idea.)  Just my dented cent....

- D.


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## Firemajic

I agree with DarKKin and her delightful dented cent  .... Not anonymous.... we have had months of anonymous, lets stir the pot and see what the response will be....


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## Firemajic

Ooo....... just one more thing.... Lisa, you are not an "idiot".... wacky maybe, but not an "idiot".... It was because of you, rcallaci, and Gumby that I joined WF... You guys just blew me away with your poetry, kindness, mentoring and patience.... sooo, thank you all for all you do for the poet's of WF... Thank you, Thank you.... I am so grateful...


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## Gumby

Lovely! I am anxious to see where this goes. :smile: Thank you to our maestro bob, for playing some hot licks to stir up a beautiful flame!


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## jenthepen

I love the monthly poetry challenge and I think Lisa is awesome in the way she has kept going in the face of dwindling support and ever-changing rules and formats. I feel bad about being absent from the challenge - and the boards in general - over the past few months. I'm going through a pretty traumatic time at the moment but I'm not the only one and, in fact, I've found WF was a comfort when real life problems threatened to overwhelm me.

I will make every effort to take part in the next challenge and to join in the discussions in those months that are not anonymous. I think the new start sounds really exciting. Let's all work together to get back that wonderful vibe that all the poets used to share. Friendship, fun and shared expertise make a heady combination!


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## rcallaci

Lets start the comp with the non anonymous-- let the poetry flow and the fun begin-- it's great to hear from all you wonderful poets- let's kick ass


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## PiP

If you let me have the prompt asap I will see I'd sigma has time to make  a promo banner


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## Chesters Daughter

rcallaci said:


> Lets start the comp with the non anonymous-- let the poetry flow and the fun begin-- it's great to hear from all you wonderful poets- let's kick ass



Hear, hear!

Many thanks to everyone who provided input, it’s much appreciated. You know I adore everyone who posted regarding this issue. Hugs.

And many thanks to Juls and Jen for their kind words, I am blushing. Have I told you lately that I love you both? 

And Bob, you’ve done the impossible by relighting a fire under this old bitch’s ass. Thanks, dear sir, I needed that!


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## Chesters Daughter

PiP said:


> If you let me have the prompt asap I will see I'd sigma has time to make  a promo banner



If it’s possible, it’s a splendid idea! We’ll have our winner around 8pm EST tomorrow. If our winner can make a decision quickly, no pressure whomever you’ll be, not only do you have to pick for the first “new and improved challenge”, now I’ll be rushing you to boot. Nope, no pressure at all, lol. 

Hopefully, there will be sufficient time to prepare something. Thanks so much, Carole!


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## Phil Istine

I haven't participated recently but it's more to do with my personal situation that any challenge rules; high stress seems to stifle my creativity and I seem to have high stress in too many areas right now.  Also, I have started the odd poem but not completed.  Other times it might be that the prompt doesn't flow into an idea for a poem.  That's not a criticism as it's different for everyone.  My personal preference is for prompts to be as open as possible e.g. (humour follows) rather than "tub of margarine", just "tub".  I haven't felt in a fit state to write anything for a while.  I imagine things will improve once I've sorted out my living and financial situations - hopefully by the year end.  Also, I'm in the process of seeking some help for the crap that goes on in my head.  I'm not suicidal, but I am glad we don't have guns in this country - if that makes any sense.


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## jenthepen

Good to hear from you Phil. Sounds like we're all going through it but we'll prop each other up and get the old creative juices flowing - the show must go on!  The only way is up.


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## midnightpoet

Phil Istine said:


> I haven't participated recently but it's more to do with my personal situation that any challenge rules; high stress seems to stifle my creativity and I seem to have high stress in too many areas right now.  Also, I have started the odd poem but not completed.  Other times it might be that the prompt doesn't flow into an idea for a poem.  That's not a criticism as it's different for everyone.  My personal preference is for prompts to be as open as possible e.g. (humour follows) rather than "tub of margarine", just "tub".  I haven't felt in a fit state to write anything for a while.  I imagine things will improve once I've sorted out my living and financial situations - hopefully by the year end.  Also, I'm in the process of seeking some help for the crap that goes on in my head.  I'm not suicidal, but I am glad we don't have guns in this country - if that makes any sense.



I understand, Phil, and I know a lot of us do here - I just took my wife to the hospital (again, and it turned out to be low blood sugar), got lightheaded and dizzy, ended up in there myself (stress related).  So hang in there.  

Tony


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## Chesters Daughter

Phil, I’m so sorry things are still shitty. I told you months ago that my eyes are yours if you need them, please avail yourself of them whenever you have need. As Jen said, we can prop each other up. Hang in there, everyone, and especially you, Tony. Everyone knows that my reality was an MMA cage before the world went mad, so even though I’m accustomed to bullshit, I’m also hanging on by a thread. As Jen said, I believe most of us are in the same boat. To be honest, I was very surprised that anyone was entering the challenge given what was going on. I haven’t a doubt that participation dwindled even further because of the state of the world. It’s no secret that we poets have the undeserved reputation of being crazy and temperamental. Okay, in all honesty I must be fair and say that maybe it’s not so undeserved, lol. Times are tough, but poets are tougher. Isn’t it we who take adversity and turn it into beauty? Okay, it isn’t always exactly beautiful, it’s oft melancholic, but it’s almost always meaningful, and sometimes it’s humorous, and it gives others a moment’s respite from their own mess. Guess what guys, we all have a tremendous amount of fodder to play with right now, let’s use it to our advantage. Bleed into your pieces and siphon off some of the internal whirlwind that’s screwing with us all. Write you say? Lisa, have you gone completely off the deep end? Yes, I have, but that‘s besides the point. Yes, it’s hard to focus when in a stressful state, but it is possible, and this I say from experience. Once you get going, boy, do you go. Writing has kept me sane by removing what I could no longer bear. Purge the poison into your pieces and then bring them here and settle them in a nice comfy spot where they can be appreciated. There’s unity and peace in community, let’s restore ours together. Oy, I sound like a preacher, someone kick me.


Look Ma! No paragraphs! I await the judgment of all willing vultures. May the swooping commence.


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## midnightpoet

Despite just getting out of the hospital, Vickie got up this morning and cleaned house.  She's my inspiration.:thumbr:


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## Chesters Daughter

Get scribbling, dear. An ode to Vickie! I’m glad you guys are home.


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## rcallaci

I gave a light review on the poems in the challenge page-also why aren't the poets exposed after the challenge. It's always been done in the LM why not this challenge I see no reason for the continued anonymity


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## petergrimes

Hi rcallaci,

firstly i would like to applaud you for all of your efforts at generating interest and excitement for change in the comp and the boards. You've really gone above and beyond and I think everybody really appreciates it. On the subject of anonymity - it might set a dangerous precedent. The challenge people entered was wholly anonymous and I would think people entered, on the understanding that it stayed that way after the results were announced. To change that now, after, especially on something so precious as anonymity. Well it could undermine trust in the conditions under which people might take part in any future Forum event. I don't think its wise to change terms and conditions after the event. There's a question of trust, how it could look. Of course you could ask all of the participants and they more than likely will be fine with it. It might be better to wait to change any terms and conditions until a new competition though. Sorry that's very convoluted. Sleepy brain. All the best PG


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## midnightpoet

Chesters Daughter said:


> Get scribbling, dear. An ode to Vickie! I’m glad you guys are home.



See Poetry thread


----------



## rcallaci

petergrimes said:


> On the subject of anonymity - it might set a dangerous precedent. The challenge people entered was wholly anonymous and I would think people entered, on the understanding that it stayed that way after the results were announced. To change that now, after, especially on something so precious as anonymity. Well it could undermine trust in the conditions under which people might take part in any future Forum event. I don't think its wise to change terms and conditions after the event. There's a question of trust, how it could look. Of course you could ask all of the participants and they more than likely will be fine with it. It might be better to wait to change any terms and conditions until a new competition though. Sorry that's very convoluted. Sleepy brain. All the best PG



I understand completely where you're coming from. But anonymity since it's inception on WF was always after the comp was closed. But I understand that's how this competition handled anonymity. Don't worry about this recent one the names will not be revealed as the rules were so stated. 

But in future ones I believe the anonymity should end after the vote. The reason for anonymity is twofold. First it is for those who lack confidence or believe there poetry will incur ridicule or bad crits. Second it is for those who believe the revealing of their names will influence the vote,either for the good or bad. 

To have the members poetry remain anonymous after the comp ends is not what a writing site is about. It's about learning the craft, taking criticism, and gaining confidence in your writing. There are always assholes who will ridicule someones work but they are not serious students of the craft and only a few haunt WFs pages. 

Also finding out who wrote the poetry after the comp helps one learn about that poets particular style. It's easier to help someone in their craft if you know who they are. 

warmest
bob


----------



## Darkkin

Consider if someone is unwilling to lay claim to being the author of a piece was it even worth the time to write and post in the first place.  Writing is a tough field elephant skin is required, but it is acquired only through repeated exposure to critique.  Can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.  It is that simple.  Anonymity is more to keep others from voting for an entry based on the author, rather than on the merit of the work itself.  

Just some thoughts.

- D.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Need some input, sweeties.

The August challenge will not be anonymous, entrants will be required to post their own work, and everyone may use the “like” function at any point during the process. We will be allowing discussion of the entries throughout the process, but does that include critique? Whether it’s only discussion or discussion and critique, we need a place to put the posts. Previously, when we allowed discussion, we put it in the Bistro and then the critique was allowed after the challenge was closed and it was placed in the actual entry thread. Is that the road we’re traveling? If so, then people can talk about the entries in the bistro at any point once an entry is posted, and then once I close the challenge to new entries, the critique will go in the same thread as the entries. If we’re doing critique throughout the process, I’m going to have to create a dedicated thread because we can’t have critique or discussion in between the entries in the entry thread. That wouldn’t be fair to the people who post entries later rather than sooner because to be accessed, readers will have to weed through critique posts. 

Then there’s the wee problem of preserving first rights for the secure entries. Those entries cannot be discussed on the public boards at all. I will, therefore, have to create a thread or two in the workshop for the purpose of discussing as well as critiquing secure entries. A thread for critique of secure entries already exists but has hardly been used. I suppose I could create a running thread like the Bistro for the discussion and then another for any critique. Another concern I have is that people may get mixed up and start talking about a secure entry on a public board. That said, I’m gonna need everyone’s eyes. If someone starts discussing a secure entry in the wrong place, please report it immediately so that I can remedy the situation.

I await your valued opinions with bells on.


----------



## Darkkin

Maybe set up a thread like the Bistro for the secure entries.  Identical function on that board.  As to critique, allow it once all entries have been posted, when the voting opens.  That way all poems start at the same line.  Others will not have X number of days head start and X number of replies when poem Q is posted.  If possible paste a sticky to the secure bistro on this board.


----------



## rcallaci

Darkkin said:


> Maybe set up a thread like the Bistro for the secure entries.  Identical function on that board.  As to critique, allow it once all entries have been posted, when the voting opens.  That way all poems start at the same line.  Others will not have X number of days head start and X number of replies when poem Q is posted.  If possible paste a sticky to the secure bistro on this board.




solid suggestion- I believe this is the way to go. Discussion of the poems in the bistro and a secured bistro while the poems are in progress and critique  while the voting is in progress. -----


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## Chesters Daughter

I heartily concur. Consider it done. In lieu of a sticky, I’ll just implant a link to the workshop bistro in every opening challenge post, that way it’s front and center every month. Oh boy, I’m gonna have a blast writing up the new requirements, no copy and pasting in August, poor me has to actually think. Get the fire extinguishers ready, lol. Thanks so much, you two!


----------



## Phil Istine

IIRC, the anonymity after the poetry challenge closes was originally to give privacy to anyone who wrote about difficult or deeply personal stuff from their own life.  However, and there has been occasional discussion about this, it should not be assumed that a poet is writing about their own life even if the poem is in first person.


----------



## rcallaci

Phil Istine said:


> IIRC, the anonymity after the poetry challenge closes was originally to give privacy to anyone who wrote about difficult or deeply personal stuff from their own life.  However, and there has been occasional discussion about this, it should not be assumed that a poet is writing about their own life even if the poem is in first person.



I've written deeply personal stuff, actually quite painful memories I did in poetry and prose. I shared those memories (turned into poetry @prose). Never thought about anonymity -- if its too painful to write and only anonymity would make it okay to share then why share it. Who wants to hear from a ghost -- I just don't buy that explanation. If that member wants total anonymity because he wants privacy then don't enter into a public poetry competition.


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## jenthepen

I wonder if PeterGrimes realises that only members usernames are revealed when anonymity is removed NOT their personal details?


----------



## petergrimes

Hi Jen, alright mate,

yes I understand that, although I'm confused as to why I'm being raised in conversation. I think I've only made two posts and they were awhile back. Maybe there's been some confusion. To clarify, I'm quite happy with the proposed changes.

My original point was that to attract new poets (like i was) an anonymous comp could be a good idea, for newbies lack confidence and if you're new to a site, well its only natural you might expect a bit of an old boys club (not that there is at WF) and perhaps think everyone else would vote for each other (which is not the case). 

Everyone listened and was very kind, agreed in alternating comps which I thought a very good solution.

My second post was about the comp that has just been. I got the wrong end of the stick and thought people were proposing to reveal the competitors. My point was a matter of principle. If a competition starts with a set of rules it should finish with those same rules. 'Moving the goalposts' mid comp could undermine peoples trust in any future WF events. I was only talking about the comp that has finished just now. I have no problem with future changes. Its about maintaining the integrity of the competition.

I am quite happy with all the discussion about future competitions and think it is good people are having an open and honest debate. I don't disagree with any of it. I'm looking forwards to seeing what it all looks like. If anybody is unsure of my point of view or feels the need to discuss it, please feel free to PM me and I will answer any questions openly and honestly. But I'm fine with how things are turning out. All the best PG


----------



## jenthepen

Hi PG, I'm sorry if my post came across as me having a go at you. It was quite the opposite - I was worried that you were thinking that personal details would be revealed. I think most of us would not like that idea. Of course, I should have sent a pm.

 I absolutely get your point about newbies being too shy to enter if the comp was not anonymous and, like you, I think the compromise that has been agreed is perfect. Once new poets have become comfortable with the competition they would probably progress to taking part every month. Many thanks for speaking up in defence of the many who might be hesitating to post. By having an anonymous option, there is an easy route in.

Apologies for my clumsy post and thanks for being so understanding. 

Cheers my mate.


----------



## petergrimes

Jen the pen,

no worries mate. I knew you meant nothing by it, that you only had my best intentions at heart, as you've always done. It just occurred to me that perhaps people had misapprehended where I was coming from.

Thank you for being so understanding, I still think you're a star,

All the best our kid, PG


----------



## rcallaci

I figured I'd get the ball rolling....this poem heavy on religious imagery - wanted the poem to fit in with my cigar smoking  avatar


----------



## rcallaci

A wonderful entry by arrow- otherworldly - I like how you formatted it


----------



## rcallaci

another two delicious poems have been posted- one of Darkins fantastical delights, and a poem by petergimes that has a flair of mystery to it.


----------



## rcallaci

another fiery poem by one of WF's  premier poets (firemajic) - a rhyming jewel  

*come on poets don't be shy start a  dialogue on the bard-- this part is not about critique but about the process - ask the poet of the competition why of the poem what they tried to convey etc etc. *


----------



## PiP

As a reader I can relate to fire's words it is a poem of the people. I am sure it will resonate with poets AND non-poets alike.


----------



## rcallaci

another sterling beauty by R H Peat - All the poetry so far has been delectable. On peats piece I could feel the wind against my cheeks


----------



## Gumby

I love the prompt! Everyone has given their own spin and it is a lovely pleasure to read them!


----------



## rcallaci

a beauty of a poem by our master poet Gumby--- this poem relies on religious imagery - a wonderful contrast between her poem ans mine. My poem is heavy on religious imagery and melodramatic in tone while gumbys is soft on the use of religious imagery and delicate in tone.


----------



## PiP

I already have a couple of favorites so I am relieved we are allowed more than one vote!


----------



## Gumby

Oh boy, midnightpoet...you been watching me drink my coffee haven't you?


----------



## rcallaci

Another fine entry, a fun poem about coffee, my favorite beverage, written by WFs resident poet Midnight.


----------



## RHPeat

petergrimes said:


> Jen the pen,
> 
> no worries mate. I knew you meant nothing by it, that you only had my best intentions at heart, as you've always done. It just occurred to me that perhaps people had misapprehended where I was coming from.
> 
> Thank you for being so understanding, I still think you're a star,
> 
> All the best our kid, PG




Peter No mistake; that is a cricket bat in your hand, is it not? I wouldn't want to confuse it with a real baseball bat from that all American sport.  This is the best I could do for an octet with a grand finale on such short notice. But they do have a classical country flavor all their own. 

:-({|=:-({|=:champagne::sleeping::-" :bomb::bomb::bomb:


a poet friend
RH Peat


----------



## RHPeat

rcallaci said:


> another sterling beauty by R H Peat - All the poetry so far has been delectable. On peats piece I could feel the wind against my cheeks



rcallaci

Thanks for the comment on my poem.

I'll share some of my writing notes about the form; in case someone wants to try it. 

It's an old Ballade form/ French in origin/ 28 lines
4 stanzas; 3 rhyming stanzas ababbcbC and an envoi bcbC.  
Capital letter (C) is a refrain/ Repeton (repeated line) like a villanelle
Turning a poem in 3 rhymes in 28 lines is a real feat. I think it would 
take some time to write such a monster. 

My poem took most of a day to write, the sun had gone down. 
But then there is an owl in every poet that likes to fly in the dark. 
I'm using English variation as: ababbcbC, dedeeceC, fgfggcgC, hchC
Metric stanza form: feet/line = 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3. *(envoi) = 4, 3, 4, 3. 
The variations made it easier to find rhymes with a variance in tone and music. 
One could get a similar cadence by alternating short and long lines with rhyme 
and have a free verse version as well.  

a poet friend
RH Peat.


----------



## Gumby

Thank you for that, Ron.  I didn't recognize the form.



> My poem took most of a day to write, the sun had gone down.
> But then there is an owl in every poet that likes to fly in the dark.



Yes! Lol! Or maybe I should say Whooo?


----------



## Firemajic

OOooo YOU are a Devil, Maestro!!! You stirred the pot, sparked the flame, and the WF poets BURNED THE HOUSE DOWN!!!! 

What a fabulous challenge!! Each poet brought their "A" game and took DarKKin's prompt to the WALL!


----------



## RHPeat

Firemajic said:


> OOooo YOU are a Devil, Maestro!!! You stirred the pot, sparked the flame, and the WF poets BURNED THE HOUSE DOWN!!!!
> 
> What a fabulous challenge!! Each poet brought their "A" game and took DarKKin's prompt to the WALL!




Firemajic

Your poem inspired me a bit. I like your poem as well. Every poem here is written well. Tweaking always comes later. But shooting for the moon sometimes in competitions is tough thing to outguess what the Judge will think. I just mailed out 8 poems yesterday to 3 different publishers.  I posted one here on published poems, It was one I'd written for the April fest last year. The editor wrote a long note about a poem by 98 year old lady that used to write for the N.Y. Times. Which I posted with it. Well worth reading concerning the covid vires pandemic. Take a peak at it. 


a poet friend 
RH Peat


----------



## Firemajic

I will check it out, thanks for the heads up!


----------



## rcallaci

three more wonderful poems with different but effective messages concerning the virus .  Chester's (lisa) is a powerful in your face poem ( it blew me away)  Jen's is a more subtle approach and PiPs is funny yet sad and tragic- all great pieces-

So far all these poems makes me happy that the power of poetry is alive and well--


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Screw Christmas in July and the 25th of December, I’ve put up my tree for what’s going on in this month’s challenge is Yuletide to me! So many gifts in so many shapes and sizes, all equally delectable as I unwrap them! Thank you all for reviving the challenge and thereby reviving me. And special thanks to Santa Bob, lots of cookies coming your way, and some booze, I don’t do milk.

Hugs and Happy Lisa Christmas to all, and to all, a good write!


----------



## RHPeat

Phill

I'd love to spread this around the USA anonymously. You have me laughing so hard I chocking. I wrote a donny dodo a while back in April. I gave it to a friend to spread around. Sad to say he just came down with Covid. I've been calling him to keep him in good spirits. 

Later. 

a poet friend
RH Peat


----------



## rcallaci

*Cracked Smile* by phil istine is a laugh riot- It made my permanent frown turn into a smile--


----------



## PiP

rcallaci said:


> *Cracked Smile* by phil istine is a laugh riot- It made my permanent frown turn into a smile--


Absolutely brilliant! We desperately need some 'light' humour to brighten these dark days. Thank you Phil! It's a strong contender for my vote


----------



## Firemajic

rcallaci said:


> *Cracked Smile* by phil istine is a laugh riot- It made my permanent frown turn into a smile--




I told Phil "I don't know if I should laugh or cry".... he expressed what sooooo many American are thinking.... sooo of course I did laugh, but there was an underlying tone of hysteria ....


----------



## Phil Istine

*Light's Flight* by rcallaci

Good to see that Bob is back, and on form with what seems to be his favourite subject 

------

*Drowning Music / The Midnight Zone Mermaids* by ArrowInThe BowOfThe Lord

Some clever word choices that carry the piece along very nicely, though I think the title could be more concise.

------
*

**Vestiges of Constellations Gone* by Darkkin

Something a little closer to Darkkin's usual style this month, and I can picture and feel it (always a good thing), even if I don't fully understand it.  Bravo!

-------

I'll comment on some more later.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Hi everyone, I realize we’re in a period of adjustment, so before we run into a problem, it’s time for *a little reminder.
*
Both entries posted on the secure board have been commented on here in the public bistro. Since none of the comments gave away any juicy stuff that may compromise anyone’s first rights, I’ve elected not to move them. I then realized that the comments are actually a huge incentive for folks to seek out the works themselves. That’s a good thing and I think you guys know why. So, as long as you don’t give away any particulars, or heaven forbid, quote any portion of secure entries, I suppose it’s fine to discuss them here, but if you have a burning need to get explicit when it comes to secure entries, please post your comments in the *Secure Bard’s Bistro.*

Once we get to the voting/critique process, all critique for secure entries must, without fail, be posted in the secure critique thread. We all know how anal I am, so there’s no doubt that I’ll make that very clear in the opening post of the voting thread.

Thanks for your eyes, guys.


----------



## rcallaci

Poets

*There still time to enter=* don't be intimidated by all those badges and long term members on Wf. It doesn't mean that your badge-less status, limited time on WF and your poetry isn't any more valid and beautiful than  the poetry entered so far


----------



## Chesters Daughter

For any and all procrastinators, and/or forgetful folks, you are loved and appreciated, and there’s still a smidge over four hours to enter this month’s challenge.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

You have likely noticed I have posted -xXx-‘s entry and I will explain why. We all know this is the first month of major changes, and -xXx- PMed the entry to me asking to have it posted a few hours before closing time. I was not here to immediately receive that PM, but I replied saying that entries had to be posted by entrants this month. Unfortunately, -xXx- was not here to receive my message in a timely fashion. When I came back to close the challenge, and the entry hadn’t been posted nor did I have a response to my PM, after careful consideration,  I decided to post it myself as I was in possession of the entry well before the deadline, and this is the first “regular” challenge after anonymity had been the adopted avenue for ever so long. If someone took the time the create an entry, they should not be penalized for a shitty game of PM tag. Had I been here as soon as the PM came in, none of this would have happened. Please know that I would extended the same courtesy to each and every one of you under these circumstances. Thank you for understanding. Next month we’re back to anonymous entries, but come October, everyone will again be responsible for posting their own. 

@-xXx-, so sorry I missed you, dear, and even sorrier I kinda butchered your title, the gremlins be hungry this night and sorely tested my patience. I will have to post it letter by letter because of the white text and the italics, and I have to get the poll up ASAP. And since I posted your work, I may not like or thank it, so please be assured you are both liked and thanked.

If anyone is going to hand me my head, please wait until I get the poll up and running.


----------



## Phil Istine

PiP said:


> Absolutely brilliant! We desperately need some 'light' humour to brighten these dark days. Thank you Phil! It's a strong contender for my vote



I missed a trick there; I should have called mine "Rump".


----------



## Gumby

There was one thing that I remember we used to do on a different site _after the poetry challenge was over_, and that was each entrant posted their poem on the boards for critique and discussion. I thought it worked really well and it gave the poets an opportunity for feedback. I would love to see it happen here.


----------



## midnightpoet

Gumby, my memory isn't  too hot but I thought something like this has been offered before; in any case, there's nothing to prevent poets from doing this anyway - at least i didn't think so.  It's a good idea, though.

Tony


----------



## Gumby

I think there was a time when it was done here, too. I think we need to bring it back as a regular event. As you said there is nothing preventing us as the poets, from doing this. I plan on doing so and hope more will, also. No one has to do it, but it makes it easier for us all to comment on the entries if we do.


----------



## rcallaci

It was done years back when their were judges and after the winner was announced the poems were critiqued my the members.

Now I thought I was attempting to do that. I gave light reviews on the poems; no once else followed- I then talked about my  process in writing my poem;no one followed.  It seems the poets need a boot in the ass to keep being reminded to participate- There was some attempt at a little dialogue but it never went anywhere.  I don't mean to be harsh and realize it takes a lot of tries to change the way things were done. But I'm patient - I'll keep hammering away...


----------



## Darren White

I think that would be a good thing. I'd critique for sure.


----------



## Gumby

Yes, I love what you've got started here, bob! No doubt that we are a contrary bunch who need a boot firmly to the backside! No aspersions were intended by my wishful thinking, above. It was just something I remembered that we used to see happen.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Gumby said:


> There was one thing that I remember we used to do on a different site _after the poetry challenge was over_, and that was each entrant posted their poem on the boards for critique and discussion. I thought it worked really well and it gave the poets an opportunity for feedback. I would love to see it happen here.



Everyone is invited to do this in the voting thread:

*Once this poll has closed, and the results have been officially revealed,you may post your entry on either of the Poetry boards for additional feedback.
*
A few do, most don’t, we used to have more do it. I have big boot for poet booties and I’m handing it over to Santa Bob.


----------



## midnightpoet

rcallaci said:


> It was done years back when their were judges and after the winner was announced the poems were critiqued my the members.
> 
> Now I thought I was attempting to do that. I gave light reviews on the poems; no once else followed- I then talked about my  process in writing my poem;no one followed.  It seems the poets need a boot in the ass to keep being reminded to participate- There was some attempt at a little dialogue but it never went anywhere.  I don't mean to be harsh and realize it takes a lot of tries to change the way things were done. But I'm patient - I'll keep hammering away...



I plead guilty, but I suspect there's a lot of "real life" excuses here.  "Don't have time right now." "Busy on home problems."  I remember on past contests we've had and critiquing poetry has always been difficult - still, I learned a lot (especially on modern poetry).


----------



## Chesters Daughter

*Voting closes in eight hours. A shout out to all procrastinators, make your voice count and cast a vote!*


----------



## midnightpoet

A couple of things I've thought of - it's possible some of the less experienced poets don't realize you can learn a lot just by critiquing, and doing all of them (and I congratulate Bob for trying) can be a daunting task. So if they are hesitant, say just do your favorite, or the ones that really spoke to you.


----------



## petergrimes

Hello, yes I've put my comp poems in the workshop before. In all honesty, I hadn't fully understood what the process was this time. I was just going with the flow. I'm happy to try critiquing the poems if they are posted or if its done somewhere else. I must admit though trying to do a proper crit of every poem I think would take a long time. So i think Midnight is on to something with that. People try to do what they can. I find once I've done one I often get on a roll, but there are lots of entrants. I think Bob has done a brilliant job. Gone above and beyond (keep going Bob, Showcase is looking good too). I think it will just be a matter of time as people become familiar with how the new set up works. Where and when to crit - then next time it should go more smoothly. Just look at how many have entered, the new comp is going very well, well done to all. All the best PG


----------



## Chesters Daughter

All hail Santa Bob! Thanks again, dearest one, we’ve had a wonderful turnout, and I extend my deepest gratitude to each of our entrants. I also want to bow to Darkkin for her choice of prompt. You nailed it, Milady. Teach me how to do that someday, lol.

Peter and Tony both made excellent points, the new protocol is cutting its teeth, and life for everyone is a wee bit complicated these days. Add the current crap to regular real life crap and what you’ve got is a huge pile of shit. I’m currently juggling some extremely unpleasant circumstances from every direction. How I’d love to resume critiquing, the process was always so fulfilling, but I now have shite for brains, very distracted, that’s why it took so long for me to write my entry. Torture it was. It was a miracle I didn’t butcher all the challenge posts, I won’t tell you how long it took for me to seem somewhat together. Lots of boo-boos, think I caught them all, though. All that said, I feel horrible for my silence, but I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I will not attempt to critique someone’s hard work if they cannot have my full and undivided attention. Anything less would be an insult. I look at it this way, my chaos can’t last forever, and then I’ll be back. You poor guys can’t hear the evil laughter that I’m indulging in right now. Thanks again, everyone, for making this month’s challenge a success!

*LAST CALL FOR VOTING! NO MATTER HOW INEBRIATED YOU ARE, WE WILL CONFISCATE YOUR KEYS AND SERVE YOU IF YOU CAST A VOTE. DOORS CLOSE IN TWO HOURS AND TEN MINUTES. If you’re seeing double text, kindly refrain. *


----------



## Phil Istine

I enjoyed Firemajic's poem, _Final Flame_, and decided to add a few thoughts, such as they are.  It's not so easy to have _two_ sets of rhyming (or near rhyming) lines on each stanza _and_ simultaneously keep to fairly optimal word choices, but this appears to be one of those poems where both have been achieved.  There's usually a sacrifice to make when managing this, and in this instance the meter goes awry in places, but I'm not sure it was intended that the poem be read with consistent meter anyway,. especially in view of the subject material.  I think 'loving' could have been omitted in st3 l3 and in st3 l4, I would have preferred _fragility_ to _fragile thing_, because having _thing_ in there detracts from the quality of the poem.

Death and its immediate aftermath are always emotive subjects and you handled them well.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

*INPUT ALERT!!!!!

Juls has contacted me regarding next month’s prompt for our anonymous challenge. She asked me if poet‘s choice would be okay, and since we’re all in this together, and the challenge belongs to each and every one of us, I am bringing the suggestion to you for your input. Personally, I am for the idea. I’d like to know how you guys feel.
*
I would appreciate it if your response could be timely, dearest sigmadog, most wonderful creator of our advertising banners, must be in receipt of our prompt ASAP in order for a banner to be created for the first of the month. Thank you in advance for your input, as well as your cooperation.

Thanks to Tony, I’ve created a poll:

https://www.writingforums.com/threads/189409-Poll-For-Next-Month%92s-Prompt?p=2303077#post2303077


----------



## midnightpoet

Poet's choice is fine for me - you gonna put up a poll?


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Thanks so much, Tony. ‘Tis done:

https://www.writingforums.com/threads/189409-Poll-For-Next-Month%92s-Prompt?p=2303077#post2303077


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Dearest Juls, oh maiden fair, espy what thou hast wrought, to thy topic they dost flock.:cheers:


----------



## rcallaci

start your engines Get ready to rock and roll -let's see those poems


----------



## Darren White

The Symphony of Silenced Voices link does not work


----------



## ladygarmadone17

It should work on the secure board tho. Did you try that 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Darren White

ladygarmadone17 said:


> It should work on the secure board tho. Did you try that


Sure 
But the link needs fixing because people click on it.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Thanks, Darren, mucho. My apologies, I haven’t a clue what happened, but I’ve remedied it.


----------



## rcallaci

so far these poems are impressive- quality writing on each and every one.


----------



## rcallaci

All I can say is that we have some breathtaking poetry... some amazing stuff...


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Last call for syllabic alcohol! There’s a wee bit over six hours remaining to enter this month’s challenge.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

My niece lost her battle with cancer yesterday afternoon. That said, I will be late in creating the winner’s thread tomorrow as it will have to wait until I get home from her wake. Please do not post congratulatory comments in the voting thread. Please hang on to your well wishes until the winner’s thread is created. I apologize for the inconvenience. Thank you.*

There are 30 hours left to vote for this month’s challenge entries.*


----------



## rcallaci

repeated post


----------



## rcallaci

*time to get your bats and newts in order- this is a fun theme so lets see what you all got -you saw mine let me see yours*


----------



## PiP

Wow, so far there is only one entry this month. Come on poets ....


----------



## Gumby

Let's break out the Halloween fun, poets! There is a little ghoul, witch, mummy and Frankenstein in all of us! Come on! Get your creep on and let those freak flags fly!


----------



## midnightpoet

Be patient, my dears.  I'm still rising from my coffin.  Wahahahahah!


----------



## ladygarmadone17

I followed the guidelines my poem (minus the inappropriate title ofc) should be there 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Darkkin

Wondering if a villanelle set is permissible given that it is eye of newt, wing of bat...Akin to the double ethree with an invert on the form through the second part, I want to see if the format would work.


----------



## rcallaci

Darkkin said:


> Wondering if a villanelle set is permissible given that it is eye of newt, wing of bat...Akin to the double ethree with an invert on the form through the second part, I want to see if the format would work.



of couse it is- looking forward to this - go at it...


----------



## Darkkin

I stuck the damn landing!  A scheme into B scheme, B scheme into A scheme on the refrain inversion without breaking the refrain.  What the heck was I thinking?!  Pantoum move over, I just found the ultimate in tedious forms.  Sestinas can be monsters, but are actually easier because they only repeat an end word pattern, they don't need to rhyme and repeat like a set of shampoo directions.

Overall, it has been a while since I set out to do something just to see if I could.  And in all honesty, I think it was good for me.  My brain now hurts, but in a good way.


----------



## rcallaci

Darkkin

One monster of a damn good poem- Intricate and I assume one bitch to write- pat yourself on the back...


----------



## ladygarmadone17

Darkkin,

I really enjoyed your monstrosity of a sestina. I did get a little lightheaded at the end though. [emoji28]
May I ask what was your inspiration for this masterpiece though?


----------



## Darkkin

ladygarmadone17 said:


> Darkkin,
> 
> I really enjoyed your monstrosity of a sestina. I did get a little lightheaded at the end though. [emoji28]
> May I ask what was your inspiration for this masterpiece though?



The piece is not Sestina.  That is a totally different species.  It is classic Villanelle with an inversion of the Villanelle form into the second half.  Hence the Juxtapose Villanelle.  As to the idea, Phi and Pi have been around for a few years, a pair sisters, Phi the younger, Pi the elder who are recurrent characters in my work.  Happened across one of my older pieces with Phi and decided to continue with the story.  Bats and newts seemed like a good fit so, I ran with it.  As to form, I've done villanelle for several years, but I wanted to do something a little more challenging so why not try to invert the form.

The first tale of Phi is From the House at the End of the World.

- D.


----------



## ladygarmadone17

MY bad Darkkin[emoji23], still a wonderful villanelle inverse tho. Your characters were so breathtaking I was left wanting more.


----------



## rcallaci

midnights poem *blade* is a Halloween poem to scream about--gruesome imagery just the way I like--Ah those witches - I think there friends of mine...


----------



## rcallaci

darkin's poem *On the Wings of a Fox* is a technical marvel- Only one who's a master of the craft can pull something off like this-and my dear you did


----------



## rcallaci

ladygarmodone's* Mosquito* gave me a chuckle- those little bugs buzz buzz buzz till one goes mad--


----------



## rcallaci

Matchu's untitled piece was witchy fun- I likes the matter of fact tone-- good job


----------



## rcallaci

carmens *october* a cute little ditty about 31 days of october. Halloween is nigh


----------



## Chesters Daughter

THE CHALLENGE IS ANONYMOUS THIS MONTH, PLEASE SEND YOUR ENTRIES TO ME. DANKE, ME DARLINGS.


----------



## ladygarmadone17

I didn’t know which poem was better expressing, the messy truth of our lives, as well as relating to this month’s poetry challenge prompt. So I basically voted for whichever ones I read that I thought were very relatable to my own life at this point (except for mine ofc).

Best of luck to you all,

D.


----------



## rcallaci

There is some outstanding poetry in this months competition- I think this is one of the best ones- I've been swept away amongst the Stars...


----------



## Phil Istine

rcallaci said:


> There is some outstanding poetry in this months competition- I think this is one of the best ones- I've been swept away amongst the Stars...



I've enjoyed reading them too, and there are probably more to follow.  I haven't a clue yet how I will vote.


----------



## Firemajic

WOW!!!!! The WF poets are on FIRE!!!! Outstanding entries.... unrivaled talent... brilliant work...


----------



## Chesters Daughter

I APOLOGIZE FOR THE DELAY IN CLOSING THE CHALLENGE AND OPENING THE POLL, GUYS, BUT I HAVE BEEN DESPERATELY ILL. PLEASE FORGIVE ME. TWO MEMBERS WROTE ME WHILE I WAS AWOL REGARDING ENTERING. UNTIL I HEAR BACK, I AM NOT CLOSING THE CHALLENGE. NO ONE WHO WISHES TO PARTICIPATE SHOULD SUFFER BECAUSE OF ME. PLEASE ALLOW ME A FEW MORE HOURS TO ENSURE EVERYONE WHO WANTED TO ENTER HAS DONE SO. AGAIN, MY APOLOGIES, PLEASE KNOW THAT I WOULD NOT HAVE NEGLECTED MY RESPONSIBILITIES UNLESS SOMETHING WAS SERIOUSLY AMISS. THANK YOU.


----------



## TuesdayEve

Sayin’ a little prayer.  Take care of yourself first. Health is wealth.


----------



## Phil Istine

Chesters Daughter said:


> I APOLOGIZE FOR THE DELAY IN CLOSING THE CHALLENGE AND OPENING THE POLL, GUYS, BUT I HAVE BEEN DESPERATELY ILL. PLEASE FORGIVE ME. TWO MEMBERS WROTE ME WHILE I WAS AWOL REGARDING ENTERING. UNTIL I HEAR BACK, I AM NOT CLOSING THE CHALLENGE. NO ONE WHO WISHES TO PARTICIPATE SHOULD SUFFER BECAUSE OF ME. PLEASE ALLOW ME A FEW MORE HOURS TO ENSURE EVERYONE WHO WANTED TO ENTER HAS DONE SO. AGAIN, MY APOLOGIES, PLEASE KNOW THAT I WOULD NOT HAVE NEGLECTED MY RESPONSIBILITIES UNLESS SOMETHING WAS SERIOUSLY AMISS. THANK YOU.



As others have sometimes reminded me - real life comes first.
I hope you enjoy a full and speedy recovery, CD.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Hello all, please forgive my 2am panic for sleeping through the closing of the challenge. While I used the 27th as the closing date for the poll in my post, I neglected to call attention to it, as every in December, we’re observing the 12 days of Christmas. I’ve since amended the poll post as follows:

*Given the fact that this time of year is so busy, and occasionally boozy, we are going to honor the twelve days of Christmas and allow the poll **to remain open for two extra days to give the busiest of us additional time to cast their votes. 

THIS POLL WILL CLOSE ON DECEMBER 27th, 2020 AT 9:30pm EST.*

My sincere apologies to everyone again, especially to Eve and Mr. Grimes for not being here when I should have been. It’s been a challenging eight days, but the tide has turned. Christmas came early for me this year. Appreciate everyone’s patience and understanding. Group hug!


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## petergrimes

Hello Chesters Daughter, 

not a problem at all, I'm glad the tide has turned, that's good news. It was no problem, I have no technological knowledge but I met a friendly philistine that did  . Everything was fine. Take care mate. All the best PG


----------



## rcallaci

what happened to the prompt posts for jan- there were around 5 or six posts- some prompts for jan - foxee saying she would judge and my posts  Wtf


----------



## Phil Istine

rcallaci said:


> what happened to the prompt posts for jan- there were around 5 or six posts- some prompts for jan - foxee saying she would judge and my posts  Wtf



This board is for poetry.
Fiction board is that way  >>>>>>>>>>>>>


----------



## rcallaci

Phil Istine said:


> Fiction board is that way  >>>>>>>>>>>>>



oops! I forgot to have my first cup of coffee


----------



## Chesters Daughter

I will likely be asleep when the poll closes, so if I don’t immediately create the winner’s thread upon the poll closure it’s not because I forgot, or am in a coma, or dead, or have developed dementia. I was going to set an alarm, but I don’t think my body will be happy about that, doc stressed rest. I am a completely incompetent disaster this month, and I apologize again. Kindly resume sending poisonous arrows of disappointment in my direction for they are certainly my due. See you all in the morning.


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## Firemajic

Every time... EVERRRYTIME!!! I tell myself that I am going to ONLY vote for the ONE poem that makes me feel something... emotional... that ONE poem that speaks to my heart... problem is ... the poets of WF are exceptional.... soooooo I guess that is why we are allowed to vote for more than ONE.... yes??


----------



## bazz cargo

Ah Fire, you have a mothering soul and sharp eye for talent. 
Poetry is what brings meaning into life when you are feeling down.


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## Firemajic

bazz cargo said:


> Ah Fire, you have a mothering soul and sharp eye for talent.
> Poetry is what brings meaning into life when you are feeling down.




Ah Bazz.... you have a compassionate soul and you are wise beyond words, my friend... **hugs**


----------



## Matchu

I entered a poem in the 'challenge.'  It was an idea last night and a polish during the morning.  When I posted it/a click into my scrapbook online it came out capitals - which was better - I shoved in a couple of extra prepositions at this point on the 'blaag version' for my reader and for mum.

I don't feel too ashamed.  You have to play somewhere :/...although prosetry...I am not certain...thinking on...it's not quite your iambic pentameter big leagues.


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## jenthepen

Poetry comes in all shapes and sizes, matchu. As the villain who came up with this prompt, I'm grateful to anyone who can conjure up a poem from it.


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## Matchu

Thank you Jen, I had a lot of fun.


----------



## James Hercules Sutton

Confused. Where do I go to post? What's a "PM?"


----------



## VRanger

James Hercules Sutton said:


> Confused. Where do I go to post? What's a "PM?"


What used to be "PM"s (Private Messages) are now "Conversations". Just hover over "Chesters Daughter"s member handle above, and the drop down will include "Start Conversation". That's what you use.


----------



## Deleted member 64995

I hope to be able to participate.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

Regrettably, the poll is going to be briefly delayed due to my being a crusty dinosaur suffering from end stage senility. I have encountered some technical difficulties that I am strenuously seeking to rectify. I have always prided myself on being well prepared, but I have disgustingly dropped the ball on this one. In my defense, I am currently dealing with extremely serious real life circumstances, so I do hope you will forgive me. Rest assured, you will still receive your full 10 days to vote. I am so sorry,  guys.


----------



## Foxee

Chesters Daughter said:


> I am currently dealing with extremely serious real life circumstances, so I do hope you will forgive me. Rest assured, you will still receive your full 10 days to vote. I am so sorry,  guys.


As we always used to say at my last job, "It's not a liver [transplant]." Take care of you. _hugs!_


----------



## Phil Istine

Chesters Daughter said:


> Regrettably, the poll is going to be briefly delayed due to my being a crusty dinosaur suffering from end stage senility. I have encountered some technical difficulties that I am strenuously seeking to rectify. I have always prided myself on being well prepared, but I have disgustingly dropped the ball on this one. In my defense, I am currently dealing with extremely serious real life circumstances, so I do hope you will forgive me. Rest assured, you will still receive your full 10 days to vote. I am so sorry,  guys.


Please don't trouble yourself.  I think most of us are still trying to find our feet with the change in software.  I know I'm struggling with some aspects still.  I feel like I've spent my life learning to play football and now someone wants me to start playing tennis.  Remember, although it seems important to us, when all's said and done it's a writing forum on the internet and no-one will die if we screw up.
I am looking around for solutions to thread locking and poll starting.  This can be tricky for a moderator because I think the reply option is open even on a locked thread, so it might not be apparent that it's locked.
Yes, most people In Europe would have been sleeping when you first posted this, including moi.


----------



## Chesters Daughter

HOUSTON, WE HAVE LIFT OFF!









						“Abandoned Places/Things” Voting Thread
					


A reminder for all entrants: you are obligated to cast at least one vote in the poll. Failure to do so will result in your entry being disqualified.  Welcome one and all to the Poetry Challenge voting poll! Please read all of the entries, and then proceed to cast votes for as many pieces as you...





					www.writingforums.com
				




With undying and infinite thanks to  both Phil and Darren.


----------



## Firemajic

Chesters Daughter said:


> Regrettably, the poll is going to be briefly delayed due to my being a crusty dinosaur suffering from end stage senility. I have encountered some technical difficulties that I am strenuously seeking to rectify. I have always prided myself on being well prepared, but I have disgustingly dropped the ball on this one. In my defense, I am currently dealing with extremely serious real life circumstances, so I do hope you will forgive me. Rest assured, you will still receive your full 10 days to vote. I am so sorry,  guys.


Please take care of yourself... life is stressful enough, without worrying about a bunch of wacky poets


----------



## sigmadog

Chesters Daughter; I'm very sorry to hear of your loss. I completely understand stepping away to deal with that and other issues.

I'll miss your lovely pm's for the monthly challenge – your gracious notes always made me feel smart (a rare occurrence for me).

I don't know who is picking up the torch for the Poetry Challenge, but whoever it is, please let me know the prompt as soon as possible so I have enough time to get the ad ready.

Thanks!


----------



## PiP

sigmadog said:


> I don't know who is picking up the torch for the Poetry Challenge, but whoever it is, please let me know the prompt as soon as possible so I have enough time to get the ad ready.
> 
> Thanks!


 @rcallaci has kindly volunteered to manage the challenge.


----------



## sigmadog

PiP said:


> @rcallaci has kindly volunteered to manage the challenge.


Yep. The moment I posted I received a pm from him with the prompt. Now THAT's a quick response time, though I think he was composing his pm while I was composing my post.


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## rcallaci

Sigma---I just sent it over-


 Ladies and gentle poets get those fingers ready and take your virtual ink and pen out of the poetic box. In two days a new challenge will begin. For those who are reading this I'm going to give you a legs up and tell you what the prompt is.   *"A Reason to Smile". *Aside from this being a challenge this is also a fun poetic exercise, so for those beginners, journeymen and brand new members jump in the sandbox and express yourself....


----------



## Chesters Daughter

I’m loving me some Santa Bob right now! Welcome most high and holy host! Your challenge opening is superb!


----------



## rcallaci

Now that the challenge has begun I'm waiting on who'll be the first brave poet to enter. Being first can cause one to doubt,  did you rushed the poem, is it finished, will poets forget about it when the challenge ends, etc ,etc. I say don't worry about that stuff, follow your gut and release that poem to the WF world. 

I'm waiting,  waiting --come on you know you want to.....


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## PiP

I'm writing... smiling... thinking ...


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## Phil Istine

There appears to be an anomaly in the poetry challenge workshop thread.  It looks like this month's prompt has been pasted onto last month's post.


----------



## rcallaci

oops just noticed I forgot to cancel and then make a new post. I just made a new post on the secure thread and took the link off I'll make a new one when I learn how.


----------



## rcallaci

We have two entries  the first one- from our great ghost host Lisa a lovely ode to a loved one  and the second from phil listine- a funny green hoot of a piece-

we want more more more


----------



## RHPeat

rcallaci said:


> Now that the challenge has begun I'm waiting on who'll be the first brave poet to enter. Being first can cause one to doubt,  did you rushed the poem, is it finished, will poets forget about it when the challenge ends, etc ,etc. I say don't worry about that stuff, follow your gut and release that poem to the WF world.
> 
> I'm waiting,  waiting --come on you know you want to.....


OK


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## rcallaci

wonderful poetry so far, it chills the bones - come on poets now is the time to put virtual pen to virtual paper and write down a poem that will bring laughs and tears to this old man


----------



## midnightpoet

Well I did.  You want me to do another one (grin)? Seriously, there's probably several more to come, maybe they're last minute poets.


----------



## Darkkin

I did a dichotomy pair.  One piece, slightly older and appropriate for competition.  The other straight up personal rant, not okay for competition.


----------



## rcallaci

Lets go poets,* only three days left* to submit your piece- Let your poetic voice be heard...


----------



## rcallaci

22 hrs. left- I'll be closing this competition at 8:15 Pm EST, I won't be able to use the computer for personal business while on my part-time job. So everyone has an extra Hour and 15 minutes .  I'll be putting up poll around 9 pm...


----------



## rcallaci

Now is the time for all good Men and Women to Vote-- the quality of the poems in this challenge are excellant.

I was tempted to vote for them all, except mine, but I picked four that I connected with most. Judging would be a preference but unfortunately finding judges every month would be near impossible. But voting is good as well, as long as you vote for the poem that connected with you. 

Now as for the bi-monthly anonymous thing- I was never a fan- I know, it encourages newbies to enter without being intimidated by the established poets. And the established poets to show their work and to avoid favoritism and getting a non-biased opinion.  For me although valid I feel its all poppycock. Here are my reasons:

A new poet or a beginning journeyman needs to put out their work in a challenge  regardless on who else is entering. Of course they'll be intimidated but that's the price of putting your work out and finding your own voice. The anonymous cloak gives you a false sense of security. You need to put yourself out there, and even if no one votes for you, so what, as you progress more votes will come. I've been entering this challenge since its inception. I've had many  0 votes, even recently, it just makes you want to do better next time. It all subjective anyway. So don't be intimidated by the Wf seasoned poets, the Gumby's, Pips, Darkkins, midnightpoets, Rh Peats, darrens, philis lines and many many other great poets on this site- they were once starting out and learning how to write and they would be the last ones to discourage you on putting your self out there.

As for the established poets on being anonymous well I say Why, so your name intimidates newer poet, that's a good thing, by entering it gives them bones, your helping them, not hindering the,. As for finding out what people really think of your work. come on give me a break, you already know what people think of your work, some of you like the badge that say your a damn good poet even though your names not on it yet. Nothing wrong with that, all poets are an insecure lot and need that anonymous validation that people can spot their work. I just think what's in a name. 

For now I'll be doing it once a month- mainly to get my bearings and to see how things go. But everything is up to revision. If their is a outcry  to bring it back to bi-monthly I'll listen. I just wanted you all to know my position on this.

Go Vote

warmest
bob


----------



## midnightpoet

Bob - while you're pondering that think on this: On the prose contest the judges (and I think the moderator) can contribute but not win the trophy.  While I respect C.S. a lot, she often won the competition.  While I understand, she's a great poet and deserves her wins - but is this fair?  Your thoughts? It strikes me of well ,the "old poet's club."  Newbies may well not contribute because they think they don't have a chance.  I suppose it reminds me of high school "cliques" where only the "right people" can join.  One of the reasons I'm even mentioning this is that the contributions have been a little thin lately.  (And I'm not being mean here, I'm trying to help - and I'll also admit several new people did contribute).


----------



## rcallaci

I agree-I was thinking about this before you mentioned it, that I should only post without being able to trophy. So a new policy I'll let them vote on my stuff but will not be eligible to win. And you're not being mean but practical and helpful. I don't want cliques,  want newbies to feel like they have as good a chance to trophy than you or I. 

warmest
bob


----------



## Phil Istine

Speaking purely for myself here, when I choose which poem to vote for I totally ignore the names.  There was a time when a poem might not work for me, but I would assume it must be deep and meaningful because xyz wrote it so the problem must lie with me.  I stopped thinking like that some time ago as I'm sure I'm not the only one capable of writing dross.

As for whether the host should be allowed to win the challenge - yes, of course s/he should.

Just my opinion, and we all know that rude saying about opinions


----------



## rcallaci

Phil Istine said:


> Speaking purely for myself here, when I choose which poem to vote for I totally ignore the names. There was a time when a poem might not work for me, but I would assume it must be deep and meaningful because xyz wrote it so the problem must lie with me. I stopped thinking like that some time ago as I'm sure I'm not the only one capable of writing dross.


ditto for me as well

as for host being able to win the challenge, I kindly disagree- The host should remain impartial- I do remember when I did the PIP  I won -always felt funny about that although is not improper at all -I do believe getting myself off the table helps the new blood feel that they are on more of an equal ground, and besides I only won this damn thing once .

A note- this challenge is not about winning it's about  celebrating poetry


----------



## TuesdayEve

I prefer all or most challenges to be anonymous. The author is secondary. It’s the poem that makes a difference and stands on its own , isn’t that why we’re here? It’s a good way for newcomers to experiment without embarrassment and a good way for veterans to test their talent.


----------



## rcallaci

TuesdayEve said:


> I prefer all or most challenges to be anonymous. The author is secondary. It’s the poem that makes a difference and stands on its own , isn’t that why we’re here? It’s a good way for newcomers to experiment without embarrassment and a good way for veterans to test their talent.



and one that I agree with up to a certain point.  But getting embarrassed is part of being a writer, it's one of the tools of learning,. And yes the author is secondary to the piece but is still a part of the piece.  Why make the writer invisible and then magically appear at the end. When I read your poetry I know it's tuesdayeves poetry and then create my version on who and what tuesdayeve is. A shadow version, for me knowing who the author is adds flavor to the poem. But this is my opinion and I am not getting rid of the anonymous tag only limiting it for a while.


----------



## rcallaci

I’ve read all the poems and enjoyed everyone. I’m not going to give any detailed reviews but rather what I perceive what the impressionable imprint or essence the poem made for me. Let’s call it a light poem sketch.

*The Gift that will always Top Them* by Chester’s Daughter

A passionate and touching ode to a son caught up and trapped down a dark path and through love found refuge that started out as a crack of light that eventually turned into a blaze. A Mother’s love is a powerful thing.

*Spit & Polish* by Phil Lstine

Fun Piece of a Man with slimly green rotten teeth. He was the Dentists # 1 patient who paid for his children’s college education, his car and house. It was a sad day for the dentist when he died. Hence the plaque.

*Remembering you as a Modigliani Sketch *by RH Peat

An elegant and sophisticated piece about a momentary glance etched in the endless cycle of time. Dripping with sensuality.

*Ephemeral *by Midnightpoet

One powerful piece on Man’s destructive nature. Mother Nature (Gaia) has bruises on and around her ass to prove it.

*Breath *by Lady Silence

I smiled, took a few deep breaths as I read this poem celebrating the joy of life

*Breaking Monday by* Darkkin

An uplifting poem. A change of perspective can make a dreary Monday into a day of sunshine and laughter.

*Dial a Smile *by PiP

This piece did indeed make the smiley in me smile. It was funtageous…

*A Reason to Smile *by TuesdayEve

A moving piece about the recovery of a long suffering loved one. But on a deeper level (for me at least) it is a celebration of an end cycle. A death chill, a day of happiness and lack of pain, final goodbyes and peace.

*Radio days *by me (rcallaci)

I loved the circus, the roar of a lion, clowns and sawdust. It was one of the few times I saw and heard my father laugh and grin from ear to ear.

*Lilac *by ritudimriautiyal

A sweet and heartwarming poem. A lovely tearjerker- my wife was taken aback when I started smelling her scent.

*Contentment *by jenthepen

The balance of the highs and lows of life. The tao of the smile


----------



## Deleted member 64995

rcallaci said:


> I’ve read all the poems and enjoyed everyone. I’m not going to give any detailed reviews but rather what I perceive what the impressionable imprint or essence the poem made for me. Let’s call it a light poem sketch.
> 
> *
> 
> Breath *by Lady Silence
> 
> I smiled, took a few deep breaths as I read this poem celebrating the joy of life


I'll answer you now, and I apologize very much.

But I didn't want to write it earlier when the vote was still in progress.

When I wrote that poem, I thought about the survivors of Covid 19. In particular, about a person I know, who came out of intensive care, after almost 1 month. He had greeted everyone, convinced that he was dying.

Yes, it's a hymn to life ^ _ ^


----------



## Phil Istine

Bridge, in my opinion only, of course, is the best poetry prompt I've seen on here for some time.  It can be a verb or a noun, or even a card game, supplies oodles of imagery in its own right, and can be used physically or metaphorically in so many ways.  I've already written two totally different drafts and can't decide which to work on.


----------



## jenthepen

Phil Istine said:


> Bridge, in my opinion only, of course, is the best poetry prompt I've seen on here for some time.  It can be a verb or a noun, or even a card game, supplies oodles of imagery in its own right, and can be used physically or metaphorically in so many ways.  I've already written two totally different drafts and can't decide which to work on.


Phew, that's a relief! Thanks, Phil. Choosing a prompt is a scary business - it can feel a bit like choosing a name for someone else's baby. I'm pleased it worked for you. Like me, you obviously prefer a prompt that is open to multiple interpretations so that it's not too constricting. Kudos for coming up with two poems - I'm still struggling to pin down a single idea.


----------



## Sinister

I'm wondering, I can't seem to find the rules for entrants and submissions.  I know it says to look for the stickies at the top of the board, but I can't find them.  I'm no poet, but I can sling words and thought I might give it a shot.  If anyone can point me in the right direction, I'd be grateful.

-Sin


----------



## PiP

Sinister said:


> I'm wondering, I can't seem to find the rules for entrants and submissions.  I know it says to look for the stickies at the top of the board, but I can't find them.  I'm no poet, but I can sling words and thought I might give it a shot.  If anyone can point me in the right direction, I'd be grateful.
> 
> -Sin


Hi Sin, all the rules are here








						August 2021 Poetry Challenge-Bridge
					


August 2021 Poetry Challenge Hello everyone- Time moves forward, a new month is upon us. This will again be a regular month but I will go on the old schedule from now on. Next month will be anonymous, the majority prefers it, so shall it be. We have an interesting prompt this month, many ideas...





					www.writingforums.com


----------



## Sinister

Oh, okay.  Whew, I thought there was some great list of rules out there I wasn't seeing.  I'm paranoid, is what it is.  lol.  Thanks again, PiP.  Sorry for being silly.

-Sin


----------



## Matchu

I flung one in - but he/she appears 'saggy midriff' - the affliction suffered - drifts even into my poetry - a unique pot-bellied style.  You can write that on my headstone. Twinned with the hair-trig-finger hovered over every mouse ensures each ill-conceived post is supplied aside all the others.


----------



## rcallaci

Tick-Tock Tick-Tock--13 more hours until the bell rings -


----------



## rcallaci

The Voting thread is up

I see no harm in promoting the poems on the board. . This is a personal vote not a panel of judges. So you influence someone, that's what a vote is , you vote for what you like, what connects, and maybe your influenced by what someone said about a poem--so what- this is a fun and learning exercise, so toot your horn .

I'd like the see poets and readers talk about the poems, the process used, why something worked and what didn't.


----------



## rcallaci

The Bridge on the River Nowhere,  by rcallaci (The notorious Host of this Poetry Challenge )

I enjoyed writing this prose poem. I wrote it in one sitting, while thinking about nothing. Going nowhere and thinking about doing nothing is one of my favorite pastimes. This is  nihilism at its core with imagery that expresses the hopelessness of it all. The is the Nowhere Man in the nowhere land. The poem is based on that song(you know which one)- A fun write for me...

I'll be doing poem sketch's of all the poems - I encourage you all (writers and readers ) to do some sketch's as well ...


----------



## rcallaci

Poetic Sketches (light Impressions)

*John and Susie*
A sweet Love letter – love hasn’t diminished but flowered –

*Severing the Boy*
One hell of a coming-of-age story- a bone chiller

*Bridge *
in death they finally are together

*A Bridge to Mar*
Solitude from the noise of those who are not awake

*Burning Bridges*
No foundation down the line... crumbling bridges shattered minds

*The Deal.*
Balance upended- All Yin no Yang

*Blood of the Covenant *(love the title)
Out of the ashes of wrecked and toxic relationships a Phoenix rises

*Driftwood *
Heaven and Hell are but an illusion drifting on myriad bits of driftwood


----------



## Phil Istine

Should I call my poem for this month "No September"?


----------



## apple

I really wouldn't no how to answer that, Phil, since I haven't read your poem yet.  But you no,
 ultimately, I no you will noingly and with all your poetic skills come up with a perfect title for the poem. So yes, maybe it's a good title or no. It depends.


----------



## Firemajic

Dear Apple, if I may... I think Phil is alluding to the fact that there is NO September challenge, Our magical Maestro and Poet God skipped September's challenge and went right to October


----------



## apple

Oh


----------



## petergrimes

rcallaci needs to realise that the devil's in the detail


----------



## rcallaci

oh my goodness my brain is dead, it will be changed I time tripped, I write about time paradox's so much that I got caught in my own time warp.


----------



## Phil Istine

apple said:


> I really wouldn't no how to answer that, Phil, since I haven't read your poem yet.  But you no,
> ultimately, I no you will noingly and with all your poetic skills come up with a perfect title for the poem. So yes, maybe it's a good title or no. It depends.


Yes, I should have been clearer.  As Firemajic rightly says, I was referring to a glitch in another thread which has since been remedied 
One day, I might stop being such a smartarse, but not today


----------



## apple

Phil, lol, I'm so misunderstood.  I was trying to be being funny and adorably clever.  I was using the prompt word NO when I responded to your post.  Yes, it's true I didn't catch what you were referring to , but I'm old and entitled to my faux pas.   By the way, smartarses titillate.


----------



## Phil Istine

Formatting tip for when sending entries by private message (aka conversation):

(1) Paste from word processor into the CONVERSATION window..
(2) Select preview option (top right of window) and alter any formatting glitches (N.B. pasting from some word processors can cause double line spacing on a carriage return - this can be negated by holding SHIFT when pressing RETURN/ENTER).
(3) When the formatting is correct, THEN send it.


----------



## rcallaci

Poetic Sketches

*-huh-uh-*

A Brilliantly done piece. Short and effective. An affirmation as well as a negation of the word NO. It can be read both ways on how the huh-uh is inflected. With a grunt and shrug like sound in a council meeting setting where a resolution on an issue is either a yes or no. With a silent *h *on the huh it’s a negation of no where the yes wins. On the other hand, with the H not silent and the voice inflection in a more excited state a setting where a parent is emphasizing to their child that a No means NO. The shortest piece in the bunch but with a multitude of meanings. Verbosity at it's best...

*No Fuss No Muss*
A whimsical delight. I could only imagine the allure of the dress and the woman in it making the men in the room drool. One sizzling little black dress...

*No Strings Attached*
A poem of the times. It created a stark and powerful picture of the plight of the Women in Afghanistan. There refusal to put the shackles of ignorance back on. There proclamation that they’re no longer a willing puppet to misogyny. They’re in for a rough ride but their resilience and defiance are a beacon of hope against fanaticism.

*Autumn*
Excellent imagery of a day in a child’s world. Bygone days of mom, scraped knees, bubblegum and baseball cards, this put a smile on my face.

*Tuesday*
A celebration of a day in the life of a contented soul in that moment in time. I could smell the autumn leaves and feel the texture of the page in the book. An upbeat delight…

*NO*
A chilling piece. I interpreted it as the early days of the virus when it was an unknown quantity. A government not acting soon enough, hiding it in the dark, a young doctor warning the public about the outbreak only to be censured and ignored, later dying. To this very day politicians, and the uninformed are saying no to the tools that fight the virus. An effective piece.

*Our Sharp Edges Collide*
One hell of a poem about two broken souls unable to mend each other’s heart. Only lust and sexual satisfaction was the glue that held them together. Separation and the lack of communication was the moving force of the relationship doomed to fail. A warning to us all to listen to our hearts not our gonads.

*Imagining Yes*
Darkness and doubt block us from imagining a world light sunshine and hope. The POV of the piece can Imagine this world but the doubt and darkness within her says No to the light of imagination.

*History *
I can only wonder who the He was who said No to progress and was thrown into the sea. This could fit many historical figures who lacked vision and was thrown into the dust heap of obscurity.

*Negative Impulse*
This poet should turn in his pencil and pen. This fool is a disgrace to the poetic community. What’s with the No’s, not’s, never Evers, and forever’s and all that nonsense. Does this guy think that he’s a servant of the devil? These dark themes are damn right depressing. But don’t worry buddy, I love you anyway…


----------



## rcallaci

The September Reveal


No Fuss No Muss *TuesdayEve*



Negative Impulse *rcallaci*

No Strings Attached *Phil Istine*



Our Sharp Edges Collide* Kettida*

History *Ritudmrinautiyal*

Imagining Yes* Apple*



No one should feel upset or embarrassed by the lower scores. Poetry is subjective. The poem who scored the lowest was for me the most innovative and word challenging. XXX and my apocalyptic nonsense are acquired tastes but by no means are they trash-heap poetry. I also thought that Midnights piece was a full of lovely imagery. Ritu’s piece was somewhat of a challenge (you write in another language) to read but it was thought provoking. Good job by all even by that pagan idiot ….




go to secure bristo for secure reveals


----------



## Firemajic

Halloween is the time for thrills and chills, when the battle for good and evil is at a fever pitch, the spirits are restless and hungry...... let us sample the devious, devilish delights of October's Poetic offerings ... [ ok, at little bit dramatic, but... this IS a writing forum]


Mr. Mingo! You delivered thrills and chills...
"Stillness slithers"
"She grazed his hand with inflexible claws"
"bed lurched as they rolled apart"

These are just a few of my favorite lines from your October challenge entry , what a mind bending read!  Thanks for the thrill....

James Hercules Sutton
Light & Life

Love these lines...
" and whether we curse the darkness 
or light a candle
does not amend the outcome :
we exist
to become more perfectly...alone"

those lines spoke to me and resonated with my own inner darkness and aloneness ...
But this line is a pure poetic jewel: 
"Still, a man who squeezes
light from his own skin"
This is such a fabulous line and for me was killer! Your powerful poem gave me chills 
I mean this is a powerful line... what if I really could squeeze light from my skin and push back the darkness.... just for awhile....


TuesdayEve
[untitled]

Very short, deceptively simple..... but think about it.... a lot can be read in those few wise words....
Not your usual style, Tuesday, but I love that, changing your poetic pulse is fabulous....

Rcallaci
spatial nauseum 

I googled and did some research and went down some weird rabbit holes about "Political spatial-ism  and then decided to just enjoy this poem... and I did enjoy your devilishly delicious offering... your opening lines are classic you ')
Then there is this gem of a line ..."Space needs all the space it can get".... lol.... wisdom from the Poet God, Himself....loveIT!
Then your poet extraordinaire cut loose and you penned this fabulous line with your exquisite brand of imagery... 
"  the universe would be nothing more
than a dot in the center of
bubbles and strings made of vaporous things"

those lines curled my toes and sent chills down my spine .... such delicate imagery and is in stark contrast to your opening lines... yes? lovely work....



The Poets have many more thrills, READ and VOTE!

To be continued! ')


----------



## rcallaci

Fire, my lovely fire, your reviews are outstanding and insightful. You have a deep understanding of poetry and your present continued voice adds a robust and intoxicating flavor to this challenge. The grasshopper has become the master...


----------



## Firemajic

Thank you Maestro, your words are  a devilish deeelight


----------



## Firemajic

I have my coffee and with my coffee I always love a sweet treat, so my treat of choice this morning are these fabulous poems from the October poetry challenge... check them out 

Dear Apple, your poignant poem "Fleur de Sel" is outstanding from your opening line to your final words.... you opened with this: 
"At first breath, he is a vessel filled." this is pure poetry....so lovely...
then this:
" he is echo borne of echoes".. this set the mood for your poem... an echo is... well, not the real thing, right? like a by-product of something that already happened, yes? not real...no substance of its own... that line set my mind spinning and as I pondered it, my coffee grew cold in my cup....
And your last 2 lines... That is imagery that is unforgettable...
I have been a fan of your unique style for years, so believe me when I say this poem is simply outstanding, brilliant and one of your very best 


jenthepen, my Dad had something he liked to say: "walk softly, but carry a big stick."
That is your fabulous style, my friend... you speak softly and your words are so gentle, but they hold such POWER!
"Black water
empty space
a mirror with nothing to see"

your imagery sets a surreal vibe, but your message is real, but will most likely be completely personal to each reader, and that is the true beauty of poetry, yes? I feel your poem is intimately speaking to just me, and I hope everyone feels the same, when they read this....fabulous work


----------



## jenthepen

Dear Jul, that's a great quote! Your Dad was a wise man. It's fabulous that my small contribution to this month's comp reminded you of such a special memory and I'm honoured that you found so much meaning in my words. You have a wonderful knack of looking right into the heart of a poem to discover the emotional nuance  that could so easily be missed. Thank you for the kind words my poetic buddy.


----------



## Firemajic

Dear Jen, I learned how to read and appreciate poetry from reading your critiques 
and speaking of critiques, there are fabulous poems in the October poetry challenge, and this one caught my attention:

"As I Waited" by WhitakerRStanton

This is a very intriguing poem which I felt used the prompt in a clever way, I loved the introspective vibe, and it is clear that the writer of this poem is also a fabulous storyteller....lovedIT so much, but found the message troubling... because it IS true... everyone seems so closed off, never making eye contact, a clear "keep your distance" vibe.... I remember people being open and smiling...anyway, fabulous poem!

Phil Istine, I enjoyed reading your poem "Tall Shorts", this is classic "Phil" ....you have such a cool sense of humor and your delivery is flawless.... sometimes I do not quite "Get" what you are saying, but It is ALWAYS a pleasure to read your work 


Ritu, your poem "Patriarchy" was powerful and your first stanza was, for me, an emotional gut punch.... I thought a lot about the message, it is in a way... Haunting... I will leave it there... well done....


----------



## Firemajic

The rain is drumming her icy, wet fingers on my roof and the wind is playing hide and seek with a few loose shingles...I am snuggled on the couch, nested in fuzzy blankets with 2 of my favorite things... Smoooch, my Pitbull Princess.... and some rockin good poetry I found in the October poetry challenge, check it out!

Dear Petergrimes, since your poem is in the Workshop area, I will refrain from quoting some of my favorite lines, and just say that your imagery was fabulous and set the stage for your intriguing poem, lovely work, and from your first stanza to the last, this poem is one of my favorites,  unique, otherworld vibe....

DarKKin....Your work never disappoints, the way you pair ordinary words to create extraordinary imagery is truly a gift, your poetic vision is breathtaking and enhances your fabulous poems and makes the nonsense world you create, alive, beautiful and very real and possible... "Monarch Tide".... lovely...
Stanza 15 and 16 [ I think] where the Old Man throws down the glass jar, breaks it and releases the ancient ink.... your amazing imagination is showcased in these and in every line of your poem... 

The rhyme is fragile and unobtrusive in this poem, the way it should be, like a whisper or beautiful background music, not the star, nor should it be.... your style is clean, elegant and beautiful...
It can be daunting, for me, to read your work, because I long to have your vision and to be able to communicate the way you so effortlessly can...love you bunches,** hugs **and never stop writing , my friend....

Kehlida, WOW! This is quite a poem 
"""Six sides of a metaphor and it maintains more substance than I do""" THIS is such a fabulous line.... loveIT!!!

"seeing is believing but my vision's cloudy
and my sight is best earned through experience or grief"
these lines resonated with me... I often wonder how I would view the world, if I did not see everything through a lens of grief....
Brilliant lines, they help make this a powerful poem... fabulous work, but remember, sometimes less is more and too much can overshadow those powerful lines that I quoted above... 


It was a hellish task to pick who to vote for, these are fabulous poems and I completely enjoyed each one! Good luck, Poets


----------



## Phil Istine

Firemajic said:


> The rain is drumming her icy, wet fingers on my roof and the wind is playing hide and seek with a few loose shingles...I am snuggled on the couch, nested in fuzzy blankets with 2 of my favorite things... Smoooch, my Pitbull Princess.... and some rockin good poetry I found in the October poetry challenge, check it out!
> 
> Dear Petergrimes, since your poem is in the Workshop area, I will refrain from quoting some of my favorite lines, and just say that your imagery was fabulous and set the stage for your intriguing poem, lovely work, and from your first stanza to the last, this poem is one of my favorites,  unique, otherworld vibe....
> 
> DarKKin....Your work never disappoints, the way you pair ordinary words to create extraordinary imagery is truly a gift, your poetic vision is breathtaking and enhances your fabulous poems and makes the nonsense world you create, alive, beautiful and very real and possible... "Monarch Tide".... lovely...
> Stanza 15 and 16 [ I think] where the Old Man throws down the glass jar, breaks it and releases the ancient ink.... your amazing imagination is showcased in these and in every line of your poem...
> 
> The rhyme is fragile and unobtrusive in this poem, the way it should be, like a whisper or beautiful background music, not the star, nor should it be.... your style is clean, elegant and beautiful...
> It can be daunting, for me, to read your work, because I long to have your vision and to be able to communicate the way you so effortlessly can...love you bunches,** hugs **and never stop writing , my friend....
> 
> Kehlida, WOW! This is quite a poem
> """Six sides of a metaphor and it maintains more substance than I do""" THIS is such a fabulous line.... loveIT!!!
> 
> "seeing is believing but my vision's cloudy
> and my sight is best earned through experience or grief"
> these lines resonated with me... I often wonder how I would view the world, if I did not see everything through a lens of grief....
> Brilliant lines, they help make this a powerful poem... fabulous work, but remember, sometimes less is more and too much can overshadow those powerful lines that I quoted above...
> 
> 
> It was a hellish task to pick who to vote for, these are fabulous poems and I completely enjoyed each one! Good luck, Poets


Yes, I had trouble decding as well.  Usually, I try to be decisive and vote for one clear winner, but I wasn't able to this time so shared it around a little more.  I still think the best voting system we had was when each voter had to choose three poems, no more and no fewer, because I believe that gave a more accurate summary of the order of preference.


----------



## rcallaci

One day left...  *  Vote*​


----------



## Darkkin

The topic for this month has a very unique  dichotomy for huge potential or disaster.  Like the subjects of love, loss, and angst; it is a topic that has been flayed into glue throughout the ages of literary endeavors.

It is a favourite topic of novice writers, so it will be interesting to see how the idea is repurposed.

From a personal standpoint, I'm facing the challenge of confronting a topic I have found to be cloying in overly trite presentations in the past, leaving me with a mild contempt for the subject.

As is with the case for things like foods we don't like all it takes is the right presentation to change one's mind.  I need to take a look at my plate, the topic sitting on it, and do some critical thinking.  Why does this topic bother me so much?

Historically for me as a reader and critiquer, this is the topic that fixes the cliches and misconceptions about things like rhyme and clunky execution in stone.  Powerful tools mishandled and damaged, accruing a stigma that writers, who utilise tools like rhyme and cliche have to battle against in order to be taken seriously.

It is a topic that is food for thought, an ingredient like a bright pepper that will make or break a piece.  In careful hands the topic has the potential to sing, but if not handled properly it can scorch unwary hands.

How can one not take the pieces of the whole subject, the emotions and thoughts it evokes, its the ensuing deficits and attempt to make something that defies the cliche.

Overcoming the default of: I didn't have anything to write about, so I wrote about writing a poem.  This single concept is the common denominator in the pieces I've encountered.


----------



## Phil Istine

Darkkin said:


> The topic for this month has a very unique  dichotomy for huge potential or disaster.  Like the subjects of love, loss, and angst; it is a topic that has been flayed into glue throughout the ages of literary endeavors.
> 
> It is a favourite topic of novice writers, so it will be interesting to see how the idea is repurposed.
> 
> From a personal standpoint, I'm facing the challenge of confronting a topic I have found to be cloying in overly trite presentations in the past, leaving me with a mild contempt for the subject.
> 
> As is with the case for things like foods we don't like all it takes is the right presentation to change one's mind.  I need to take a look at my plate, the topic sitting on it, and do some critical thinking.  Why does this topic bother me so much?
> 
> Historically for me as a reader and critiquer, this is the topic that fixes the cliches and misconceptions about things like rhyme and clunky execution in stone.  Powerful tools mishandled and damaged, accruing a stigma that writers, who utilise tools like rhyme and cliche have to battle against in order to be taken seriously.
> 
> It is a topic that is food for thought, an ingredient like a bright pepper that will make or break a piece.  In careful hands the topic has the potential to sing, but if not handled properly it can scorch unwary hands.
> 
> How can one not take the pieces of the whole subject, the emotions and thoughts it evokes, its the ensuing deficits and attempt to make something that defies the cliche.
> 
> Overcoming the default of: I didn't have anything to write about, so I wrote about writing a poem.  This single concept is the common denominator in the pieces I've encountered.



Yes, writing about writing poetry has sometimes been my last resort when ideas have been in short supply during NaPoWriMo.  I've tried to dress it up as a poem about the sludge at the bottom of a barrel or some other truly awful metaphor,.  Maybe I can improve upon that with a couple of weeks to do it rather than one a day as in NaPo.


----------



## rcallaci

To all of concern- 

Silent Cipher posted on the challenge directly-a honest mistake- I tried deleting it and then put it under my name but I ended up deleting the whole damn thread, So rather then getting the main admins to delete it I'll keep it as is- I doubt knowing who he is will affect the vote, his poem is quite good, and to disqualify him seems harsh. This is suppose to be a fun comp where our poets can show their stuff . I know some will disagree with me for not adhering strictly to the rules but I think bending them in this instance is warranted. 

warmest
bob


----------



## Darkkin

Oops once, it happens...(no angry mob)
Oops twice, you didn't read the directions...


----------



## Darkkin

My entry needs to be either deleted or edited because DISQUALIFYING explanatory text that WAS NOT PART OF THE PIECE, was included.  I knew my formatting would break and I do not know how to fix it and because of that text my piece DQs through actions I have no control over.  Is there a way to fix this.  Can fix this because I am beyond upset about this.


----------



## rcallaci

Sorry I corrected it


----------



## Darkkin

Thank you.  My brain was freaking itself out last night and arguements with myself are the worst because I never shut up.  I turn away from myself, walk away and come back five seconds later going:  ' And another thing...'


----------



## Phil Istine

Darkkin said:


> Thank you.  My brain was freaking itself out last night and arguements with myself are the worst because I never shut up.  I turn away from myself, walk away and come back five seconds later going:  ' And another thing...'


I'm just relieved I'm not the only one who does that.


----------



## rcallaci

The November 2021 Anonymous Challenge reveal

*the poet*---petergrimes
*wordsmith's poem*...jenthepen
*Meta*... AndrewClunn
*Poetry*...rcallaci
*Let Me Out of this Giant Head*...Apple
*Marianne Moore explaining Poetry*...James Hercules Sutton
*Iambic Pentameter.*.. SilentCypher
*The Glass Rabbit and the Narrator*...Darkkin
*It's All a Process.*..ChrisV
*Po-try*...Midnightpoet


----------



## petergrimes

Hello poetry people, 

I was reading the donor information and came across this as a reward for being a gold member -


5) Automatic qualification for WF's yearly Prize Poetry and Literary Maneuvers Prize Challenges

What is the WF yearly Prize Poetry award? I've never heard of it, (admittedly I only joined less than two year ago), I think I've heard of the Literacy mob doing their one, although I might have dreamed that. What would people think of reviving it? (that being said I don't want to be putting any extra work on our resident chief Devil, Bob). The down side I suppose is it would replace a monthly challenge that would leave some people out, unless two could be run concurrently (more work for Bob). I've heard the prize is a choice between two tickets to Disneyland Paris or two tickets to the Black Country Living Museum. So I know people would be keen on that.

What do people think, cheers petergrimes


----------



## PiP

petergrimes said:


> Hello poetry people,
> 
> I was reading the donor information and came across this as a reward for being a gold member -
> 
> 
> 5) Automatic qualification for WF's yearly Prize Poetry and Literary Maneuvers Prize Challenges


We are planning a Prize poetry challenge ... at some point for this year. Not sure as yet if it will be an open challenge to promote WF to the poetry world at large or a member-only challenge.




petergrimes said:


> What is the WF yearly Prize Poetry award?


We currently don't have one... unlike the LM the monthly poetry challenge isn't judged.



petergrimes said:


> I've never heard of it, (admittedly I only joined less than two year ago), I think I've heard of the Literacy mob doing their one, although I might have dreamed that. What would people think of reviving it? (that being said I don't want to be putting any extra work on our resident chief Devil, Bob). The down side I suppose is it would replace a monthly challenge that would leave some people out, unless two could be run concurrently (more work for Bob).



Nope, we've not had one since 2016 ... our bad.



petergrimes said:


> I've heard the prize is a choice between two tickets to Disneyland Paris or two tickets to the Black Country Living Museum. So I know people would be keen on that.



Ermmm... Amazon vouchers?


petergrimes said:


> What do people think, cheers petergrimes


I like the idea.


----------



## petergrimes

Thanks PiP,

for your very helpful and detailed reply, much appreciated. I think it is good that you are considering an extra prize comp (revitalising the old one) whether it is open to just us, or to web-footed, pointy-headed outsiders as well (that sounds a good idea to promote WF), I would certainly support it either way, as I'm sure would many others. I remember when I first joined in 2020, I think the first comp I entered was the May one and about only four people (including me) on average entered back then. So it's really good how far it has been brought back, revived (thanks to Bob and that is in no way a slight directed at lovely Chesters Daughter, life takes over all of us sometimes). The comp is in a really healthy state so it would make good sense to capitalise on that for the members and WF. I thought that a trip to Disneyland Paris or the Black Country Living museum was a good prize, but your uping the anti with an all expenses included, inclusive cruise down the Amazon sounds fantastic. Good on you, cheers PiP, thanks for your quick and thorough reply, all the best PG


----------



## rcallaci

I heard rumors' that our  Beloved Owners Pip, Darrin and Gumby were putting together a trip to the Forbidden City in China for all the participants in this month's Challenge . A good incentive to get those fingers moving. Let's all row our poetic musings to this month's challenge.

*Write, Submit and Vote*


----------



## Olly Buckle

The Black Country Living Museum might have got me scribbling.

There's a place you'll find in Dudley
That's absolutely lovely
With discount city breaks 
It has everything it takes ...


----------



## petergrimes

Olly Buckle said:


> The Black Country Living Museum might have got me scribbling.
> 
> There's a place you'll find in Dudley
> That's absolutely lovely
> With discount city breaks
> It has everything it takes ...


Good taste Olly,

I'm going down that way tomorrow, taking my nine year old nephew to Molineux, we're playing the Blades in the cup. Haven't told his mum we're sitting in the South Bank. It will be an educational experience for him, especially with my mate driving us. The singing will keep us warm. First game I've been to since Corvid, very exciting.
Cheers Olly all the best petergrimes


----------



## PiP

rcallaci said:


> Let's all row our poetic musings to this month's challenge.


I'm writing ... on the last stanza ... hey, creativity can't be rushed. It's like savouring the last drops of a good wine ...


----------



## Phil Istine

petergrimes said:


> Good taste Olly,
> 
> I'm going down that way tomorrow, taking my nine year old nephew to Molineux, we're playing the Blades in the cup. Haven't told his mum we're sitting in the South Bank. It will be an educational experience for him, especially with my mate driving us. The singing will keep us warm. First game I've been to since Corvid, very exciting.
> Cheers Olly all the best petergrimes


Should be fun.  I've never been to Molineux but did visit Wolverhampton once.


----------



## Phil Istine

About an annual poetry challenge: if memory serves the last one a few years ago was invitation only to winners of the monthly poetry challenge.  I think I qualified as a winner of the now defunct PIP (Poets in Progress) challenge.


----------



## petergrimes

Phil Istine said:


> Should be fun.  I've never been to Molineux but did visit Wolverhampton once.


Good man, doesn't surprise me, Wolverhampton and the Black Country as a whole (excluding West Bromwich obviously) is 6th in the top twenty tourist destinations in the world. Puts the Costa Del Solihull to shame. Dudley Zoo, Black Country Living Museum, Manders Shopping Centre what more could you want? Still not the same since they blew up the GoodYear factory and got rid of that graffiti over the scrap yard that you'd read coming in on the train, it read "Smile you thieving bas**rds, you're on camera". Although I think the spelling and punctuation might have been somewhat different. I'm surprised you left. Cheers Phil, I'm looking forwards to it. PG


----------



## Phil Istine

I felt quite at home in Wolverhampton, but that's because I come from a southern version of it.  We are in a different class down here; the graffiti writers can spell.


----------



## rcallaci

To all

I'm running a little late on the poetry challenge- will have it up by 11Pm Tonight-a little heads up on the prompt by petergrimes  it's 'the sea" a really good one but I'm make it official later tonight


----------



## Darkkin

> rcallaci said:
> 
> 
> 
> To all
> 
> I'm running a little late on the poetry challenge- will have it up by 11Pm Tonight-a little heads up on the prompt by petergrimes aka Richard  it's 'the sea" a really good one but I'm make it official later tonight
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
Click to expand...


This presents a little bit of a dilemma for me.  Library-wise, I have a number of pieces in reserve that would fit the topic, but the chance to do something completely new is always tempting.


----------



## petergrimes

Darkkin said:


> This presents a little bit of a dilemma for me.  Library-wise, I have a number of pieces in reserve that would fit the topic, but the chance to do something completely new is always tempting.


Hi Darkkin,

sounds like a perfect opportunity to me, you can try something new knowing you have back-ups if you encounter any problems. Maybe go for something really ambitious. Although I know from experience choosing between a few can be tricky. Trust your instincts and enjoy yourself.

Good luck, all the best pG


----------



## PiP

Come on #poets we have a great prompt this month








						March 2022 Poetry Challenge
					


Anonymous March 2022 Poetry Challenge This is the Anonymous Month   It’s time to pick up those virtual pens and starting thinking about the sea  The “Like” function may now be utilized at any time.  Discussion regarding any entry, or any challenge related issues, may take place at any time in...





					www.writingforums.com


----------



## Darkkin

PiP said:


> Come on #poets we have a great prompt this month
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> March 2022 Poetry Challenge
> 
> 
> 
> Anonymous March 2022 Poetry Challenge This is the Anonymous Month   It’s time to pick up those virtual pens and starting thinking about the sea  The “Like” function may now be utilized at any time.  Discussion regarding any entry, or any challenge related issues, may take place at any time in...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.writingforums.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 28493



I need to get my butt in gear on this one.  Should have something soon.


----------



## rcallaci

Tick Tock Tick Tock *the clock will ring its chimes in three days* tick tock tick tock


----------



## rcallaci

now is the time for all good men and women to locate their muses, think and ponder about doors, and enter the *challenge-*- only five days left to create your masterpiece....


----------



## rcallaci

The Vote


August is upon us and a new challenge is under way. This month the voting will be changed. A mandatory 3 vote per voter. A 1st 2nd and 3rd place vote. You vote your 3rd pick (good) then 2nd (better) and 1st (Best.) The 1st place vote will count for 3 points the second 2 points and the third 1. Here's where it can get uncomfortable for some.  To do these three picks 1st 2nd and 3rd you must put those order of picks in the comment section. That means how you voted will be made public. I see no problem with that, as a matter of fact it can spur debate.  I know it will be uncomfortable for some thinking that you will hurt someone's feelings by choosing that poem 3rd or not choosing someone's poem at all. But a poet or writer who submits their work on a public forum needs to be able handle that, not everyone would like their work. I'm a perfect example, most of my poems on this challenge are not vote getters. I may give the imaginary middle finger to those voters but I shrug it off and move on. Don't worry about hurt feelings and such,  just do the vote. Remember this doesn't have to be anonymous, where not in the political arena.   I do believe the three picks will spur on debate reasons for picking this and that . Voting will be robust not passive.

Please give me your feelings on this- or do further brainstorming.


warmest
bob


----------



## Isham

For greater participation should there not be a notice on both Showcase and P&L?


----------



## Phil Istine

Although I regard a mandatory three votes as good, I don't feel it necessary to choose a 1...2...3 order, because choosing three poems should be sufficient to iron out any voting anomalies. However, choosing an order will make it far more interesting and I like the idea of it being public. I only hope it doesn't deter some people from participating.


----------



## jenthepen

Yay! After reading and commenting on the poem by Konji, I sent a message with an invitation to take part in the poetry challenge and got a resounding YES by return. It looks like this personal touch will work well. Hopefully, others will contact poets that they feel may welcome an invitation.


----------



## NajaNoir

I just want to double check that entrants are also meant to make their three votes public?


----------



## rcallaci

Yes they are- entrants and readers both can make their three votes public


----------



## Isham

I’m a bit dumb - how do i register a vote?
and no vote for oneself, right?


----------



## PiP

Once the challenge closes @rcallaci will start a new thread with a poll


----------



## NajaNoir

Hi all, first off thanks for letting me be a part of it this month, was fun to challenge myself in an area out of my element.
Also, I hope I’m doing this right, if not, my apologies. 

I thought it was a fantastic prompt for the month of August. All of the poems were really great but I chose the three that resonated most with me.

My choices and why:

3rd place I voted for The Cold by rcallaci because 
The imagery felt solid, creating a vivid visual walk through. I like easily seeing what I'm reading.

2nd place I voted for Late Winter by Isham because 
This one was fun, had a slight snarky feel which amused me long after I read it. I thought it was a clever way to use the prompt. 

1st place I voted for hot pink, red hot by YggNate because 
There was an underground hip hop quality to this one,  lyrically fascinating feel to it that jolted my senses.  Every time I read it, something different stood out. I found this one the most titillating.


----------



## Phil Istine

Okay, no full-on critique, but a few comments on my 1...2...3.

1st: *At Sidewalk's End* by Darkkin
This poem nailed it for me; I loved the use of unusual adjectives - words that might not usually be used as such. They strengthened the poem immensely and created imagery in my mind's eye but without imposing images. The wording allowed me to choose those pictures.

2nd: *Heat in more ways than one* by apple
I do enjoy when someone makes a less usual use of a prompt, especially when they turn out a decent piece. I did enjoy reading this. I felt a more concise title would have been of benefit.

3rd: *Warm enough yet *by jenthepen
This poem was strong by what it didn't quite say directly; I find that implying something in a poem can be far stronger than directness. The message was well carried.


----------



## jenthepen

At Sidewalk’s End by Darkkin because of the underplayed emotion through the whole piece but, mainly, for that killer final stanza. Those four lines burned into my brain and, as sweet and smooth as honey, rounded up all that had been hinted at before.

Untitled by Mart Ness because his lines open a door into a surreal world that feels alien and yet so familiar that it is like looking back into a half-forgotten recurring dream. And, again, those final two lines pulled me up like a choke chain.

The Cold by rcallaci because it made me laugh out loud and I just loved the irreverence and the arrogance of that last stanza.


----------



## rcallaci

*A Note from the Host*

I'm extremely pleased with the way this is going. It's what I hoped it would be when I took over this challenge. My special thanks goes to Pip for opening up the discussion and TL Murphy for his spot on suggestion.
A ll of the poems have been outstanding and the choice was really hard for me. I waffled between Darrkins piece and Jenthepens. for third vote.  But darrkins piece overtook the spot.

Now before everyone gets confused by how the vote tally this is the way it will go, First all the points will be counted and then the individual  votes. easy Quite simple and fair. .


----------



## rcallaci

*Untitled * or _This is my poem and this is a title  _totally resonated with me. It had philosophical and cosmological feel to it, right up my ally. It rocked  !

*Hard-Done Night.  *This had a lyrical quality to it, a slight chance of pace from this Top Tier Poet. It popped for me.

*At Sidewalks End  *I'm so use to her villanelles and sometimes forget that she writes other types just as well.  A master poetess of the first degree.


----------



## Phil Istine

I like that there is a wide diversity of opinion. It reflects the difficulty I had in making my choices.


----------



## TL Murphy

First - Tomorrow there'll be Thunderstorms by SJ Ward. - Phrasing is rich and creative. The sounds role off the tongue.

Second - hot pink, red hot by yggnate - Lyrical and playful language. I like the internal rhyme and alliteration throughout.

Third - Half-acre by Tonsonenotany - Economic and enigmatic. My favourite kind of poetry that leaves me wanting more.


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## Isham

1 ward because of the immediate impact of the concrete vocabulary in each stanza, could feel the sand under my feet, thr heat, the whole ambience of an english beach

2 darkkin a somewhat similar style, but somehow a little more diluted

3 yggnate for the helter-skelter  rough and tumble nion-stop flow of words


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## TL Murphy

Comprehension

1. Beyond Comprehension
I love the brevity of this poem and its crystal clarity, which forms a juxtaposition to its overall intention: confusion or misinterpretation.  On that note, the title plays an important roll and the crater in the second line gives us a striking visual metaphor of the gulf between the signaller and the narrator. The last line is both a turn and a paradoxical conclusion, that leaves us knowing the narrator has understood the medium but not the message, if indeed, there ever was a message.  Maybe the medium is the message. We will never really know. Could this be a comment on poetry?

2. One-Handed Bandit
What I like most about this poem is its energy.  There is a steely-eyed intent and at the same time a confusion of direction that makes interesting dichotomy, a kind of conversation between focus and distraction.  I particularly like the line “…three fat sevens / roll up like Cadillacs“ followed by the turn about poetry - which almost (but not quite) breaks the fourth wall.

3. Understanding Bryn
I don’t know who “Bryn” is but it doesn’t matter.  The poem kind of slips through the reader’s fingers, never quite forming enough solid mass to hold on to, and I find that a fitting form for its subject, which seems to be the ethereal nature of communication or art or poetry, or whatever the hell we’re talking about here.


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## jenthepen

First place *Understanding Bryn...*
… because of the way this poem is framed. It exposes assumptions as non-comprehension and judgement as irrelevant to one who never looks for validation. All this with no ranting or preaching, but with gentle acceptance and respect for simple difference. Brilliant!

Second place *Starfish in the Bathtub* …
… because I enjoyed the exploration of bathtub dreaming – an intensely personal pastime that is beyond explanation or comprehension.

Third place *Black Holes and Nirvana* …
… because I admire the way the strange, fragmented workings of a mind trying to understand the incomprehensible is so delicately and comprehensively described.


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## rcallaci

*Hurry up and vote times running out*

*Note: *I live on the west coast of Florida where the hurricane is heading. It's supposed to hit here later tonight or on Wednesday. My power may be affected and if it does  the results of the challenge my be late. Don't worry as soon as the storm ends and if I survive  I will post the results..

warmest
bob


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## Phil Istine

rcallaci said:


> *Hurry up and vote times running out*
> 
> *Note: *I live on the west coast of Florida where the hurricane is heading. It's supposed to hit here later tonight or on Wednesday. My power may be affected and if it does  the results of the challenge my be late. Don't worry as soon as the storm ends and if I survive  I will post the results..
> 
> warmest
> bob


I dunno, mate, any old excuse will do, won't it?
Seriously, batten down those hatches and stay safe.


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## TL Murphy

rcallaci said:


> *Hurry up and vote times running out*
> 
> *Note: *I live on the west coast of Florida where the hurricane is heading. It's supposed to hit here later tonight or on Wednesday. My power may be affected and if it does  the results of the challenge my be late. Don't worry as soon as the storm ends and if I survive  I will post the results..
> 
> warmest
> bob


uh


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## TL Murphy

I lived at the southern tip of Pinellas County for 10 years, right at the mouth of Tampa Bay.  Totally exposed.  Only got hit once in those 10 years and it wasn’t too bad.  But in 1960 a hurricane flattened Pass-a-grille, Treasure Island and St. Pete Beach.  The only thing left standing was the Don Cesar Hotel, which was then abandoned for nearly a decade.


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## Isham

jenthepen said:


> First place *Understanding Bryn...*
> … because of the way this poem is framed. It exposes assumptions as non-comprehension and judgement as irrelevant to one who never looks for validation. All this with no ranting or preaching, but with gentle acceptance and respect for simple difference. Brilliant!
> 
> Second place *Starfish in the Bathtub* …
> … because I enjoyed the exploration of bathtub dreaming – an intensely personal pastime that is beyond explanation or comprehension.
> 
> Third place *Black Holes and Nirvana* …
> … because I admire the way the strange, fragmented workings of a mind trying to understand the incomprehensible is so delicately and comprehensively described.



*ISHAM’s INITIAL COMMENTS october poetry contest

This is* the first time that I have tried ranking a whole group of poems, and it has been a challenging task, resulting in my making decisions in complete opposition to some of my previous statements. In my previous definitions, the word ‘structured’ was fundamental. At base, poetry is structured language. and also ‘divine’ in that it points to something inchoate - the  Choirmaster sits at Level Nine and draws something up…. tosh. Poetry needs command of language, and Frost’s Law says only do it in your native language…

*NUMBER 1 -  Vast Apartment, by Chudbektop*

I cannot avoid making immediate, stereotyped and often unconscious judgements about people at the first opportunity. This includes the person presented on a web page - their id, avatar, style of language. I may well be wrong, learn more about them as more info is exchanged on the page.

Reading this piece  I hear N )the Narrator) teetering on the edge of a language not of their birth, but avoiding huge solecisms. Sometimes it becomes almost archaic, stilted:-
heed, shun, appendage (looming and hugely suggestive of mystery),
strange yet not so strange attributions of almost biblical solemnity:-

the marble of your counter is chilly
alone in an apartment, N has to ‘retreat to the stove’.
smell becomes a ‘redolence…’

All of these are still within normal parameters - by a hair’s breadth.

All of this is set against a slow, declaratory style, almost spare but very definitely not abstract.

The ‘vastness’ of the apartment is palpable, it houses and names solid, but possibly not comforting, utensils, stoves, counters.

And overall is imposed a slow rhythm of speech, the repetitions building tension almost antiphonally.

Even though there is much to criticise - in particular the foreshadowing, that, for me, did not reduce the strong emotional punch of: - ‘My Joseph is gone.’

Yes there are redundancies, but there was, for all that, a very controlled approach, resulting in an almost elegiac poem.

The control, the pace, the genuine force of the grieving voice - this was the standout peace.

*NUMBER 3 - Gotterdamerung,  by James Hercules Sutton*

Here, by contrast, is a technically perfect example of the classic sonnet. Statement, development, dive and redemption.

Iambic pentameters, dropping a beat at the beginning of the sestet, with a really nice pausing fall in line 11.

The title really will not do - far too portentous.
I had to include this in my final three for its sheer technical mastery. But compared to the first two it lacks heart.

*NUMBER 2 - Gut Feeling, by lbb*

At number 2 for the sheer exuberance and energy so well controlled.

I think the integration of the street talk into the stanza sequence is practically flawless.

With the addition of the humour and the little bit of pop psychology, this piece zings,

Chudbektop - feeling
lbb - exhuberance
James Hercules Sutton - technique


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## BadHouses

Thanks to rcallaci for running the thing, and for specifically calling on non-poets to participate. I wouldn't have considered it otherwise. It was way more fun than I expected. Three cheers to you. 

Notes from October Challenge

1) *Damascus, Georgia* *by tonsonenotany*
I saw an interview with Bukowski once and he talked about a sentence's "juice" and I feel like this poem has a pair of two-litre juice jugs. I liked "our lady of the edge of town" a lot. Cutting to the next line at "lady" stuck me as a perfect choice, makes it funny.

2) *Gut Feeling by Ibb*
This poem gets an unfair advantage because it taps into recent musings of mine on gut feelings, and my attempts to listen to it rather than second guessing and later regretting it.  The internal back-and-forth worked for me, especially the tundra tangent. 

3) *Götterdämerung by James Hercules Sutton*
This seems like a poem's crystalline exoskeleton, as though the meat's been withheld; or like the foundation and framing of a sturdy and beautiful house. I liked it (and I like the title too, a splash of colour).


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## Isham

Isham’s comments on the ones ‘in the middle’ of the Oct 22 competition

in no particular order come

*Mart Ness - i was sleeping *

solidly constructed little piece, but which puzzles with a somewhat anti-climactic is-it-really-a-surprise. the triple question reflects old folkways. plain, simple, fit for purpose.

*SJWard - Hurricane Barbara*

a nicely comfortable grab at  the atmosphere at the end of the broadcast news. i didn’t know that still went on. from my childhood in England i well remember the triple chant - football results, stock exchange, and that long long melodic list of weather areas.

nicely done, if a little low key. definitely not enough emphasis or threat in the last stanza, on both sides of the equation.
thanks for the trip down nostalgia lane.

*NajaNoir - Blind Spot*

again a piece which seems not to be in native language hits the spot. maybe one of the keys to success in this. situation is brevity (another could be the incantatory repetition in ChudBektop’s Vast Apartment.)

how i would hate the old Green Line at night - peering through the mist, listening, interpreting every little ‘snick,’. a good candid photo.


*tonsonoteny - d g*

admirable first four lines, and in the remainder the southern atmosphere glows even though painted in the simplest of vocabularies. skilfully done lyricism.


*River Rose - Garbage*

Of course this is not just a ‘worthy subject’ but one screaming out for action. However the presentation here, carefully laid out rise in temperature - it all seems too contrived, too engineered. I felt i was being manipulated.


*TLMurphy - After the Heart AttaCk After…*

some great language, especially the nonesuch list, and pocket-sleeping, but i did not see where it was trending, and am left hanging unsatisfactorily.

*recalli - the veil*

sorry bob, but no.
clashing sounds of swinging abstractions - amusing as an exrercise in therapy but bamboozling in any philosophical way.


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## Isham

ISHAM’S COMPLETION OF COMMENTS ON OCT 22 COMP because he can be obsessive (not to mention inconsistent)
i am trying to give my initial reaction plus further attention. i am reacting to the whole field at once, and reading anyone of the pieces in a different context would have produced a different result, but not drastically different.

every entry, even the beginners, show underlying competence. given that competence, allow my hackles to rise occasionally.
in no particular order:

*Love of Writing - Clearly*
you need to keep doing this. there are times when emotions surge and passions rise!!!
it is important that you learn to understand what is the event that stirs you, and to be able to say, not just that i feel the storm, but tell us about the picture the storm makes in your mind. not - everything is red, but perhaps there is a red dragon in your mind, a whirlpool of marsh you are caught in, a hand smashing a hammer.  Yes, slap! but describe. what you are slapping. Doesn’t have to be long, but it should be there.

*Yggnate - rood awakening*
ii think that was a waste of a good theological pun of a title - keep it for later use. it’s a tidy little piece, not heavy enough for the heading. it’s more like a mini sermon - on the edge of sanctimony… Again, too much abstraction is probably what’s wrong. but it passes muster!

*Darkkin and Jenthepen*
i liked both of your pieces which to me seem to rise out of long practice and thought. it’s just that in this set they had less sparkle comparatively. that does not mean i think they need any changes. they stand well on their own.

*Badhouses - muh history and my jeronimo*

duh history was a fun piece, perhaps too long. i was fascinated that in both our pieces we relied on strings of restricted external references. yours very much tongue-in-cheek classical, mine more contemporary (but still showing my age.)
Reference packages can of course date very quickly, though we know that yours have stood the test of time. they can also easily put people off - it’s a poem, not a cryptic crossword! 

*nuff said*


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## rcallaci

Excellent commentaries. You painted them with a fine brush. These show that you have an excellent grasp of poetry. I got a kick out of your review of mine. You got my number, I'm a philosophical charlentan . Enjoyed immensely... 

warmest
bob


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## Isham

bob, in this sort of thing it is so easy to be strident. being partisan is something else - as i obviously am about ChudBektop.
differentiations depend on a hair’s breadth so sometimes SJW pulls ahead of Mart, and sometimes the forthrightness of River Rose is exactly what’s needed.

philosophical charlatans make good conversation, and find willing audiences among dilettante like me!
i appreciate your note.


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## jenthepen

Once again, the standard of the poetry this month doesn’t disappoint. In fact, the range of interpretation of the prompt was impressive and any of the entries could take first place. Once again, it comes down to personal reaction and the way the poem hits home for the reader, so my choices are as follows:

*After the Heart Attack After the Car Accident After the Runaway Train by T.L.Murphy
Ist place goes to this one for the imagery and subtlety of the telling. This poem left me with an inexpressible sadness and a rush of half-remembered feelings that stayed with me the whole day. 

 Gut Feeling by Ibb
For me, 2nd place is claimed by Ibb for this hard-hitting poem because of the characterisation of the narrator. It felt believable and, satisfyingly, justice was served. The shocked reaction and claim of unfairness when no warning was given, plus the thoughts of his mother, lent some pathos to the story and humanised the character. This is a cleverly constructed poem.

 Blind Spot by NajaNoir
get’s 3rd place because this feels like a poem that was specially written to meet the prompt and it does that with drama and a smooth elegance.*

I struggled again this month. It gets harder and harder to pick out just three so I wanted to share my thoughts on the other entries, that didn't make my first three but which gave me a lot of pleasure to read...

*The Veil by rcallaci* was especially enjoyable because it took the idea of ‘no warning’ and applied it to existence itself - a guided tour of the forces at work behind Life itself from the maestro of the occult.

Then, moving from the macro to the micro, the casual way we take our domestic life for granted, until it is unexpectedly snatched away, was well show-cased by *S.J.Ward with Hurricane Barbara.

ChudBektop* reminds us of the shock of loss with the poem, *Vast Apartment*. How true it is that unexpectedly finding yourself alone can make the cosiest of homes feels suddenly vast, cold and lonely.

*RiverRose*’s poem *Garbage* tackles the uncomfortable truth of domestic violence and how it can erupt without warning when least expected. An uncomfortable read about an important subject.

*Mart Ness*, in his short poem, demonstrates how we identify a warning from the myriad sounds and rustlings of life and, at the same time, gives us a little Halloween shudder with that unexplained ending. Clever! 

*YggNate* with the poem *Rood Awakening* reminds us that birth itself is unexpected (for the baby) and happens without warning. Understanding and meaning requires a body and a brain, so now we get into the realm of the snake devouring its own tail and the whole circle-of-life dilemma.

*Muh History* by *BadHouses* is brilliant in its historical references and shows a hankering for the civilised elegance of the past. This one seems to be begging for a sudden intervention and gives an unusual and erudite spin on the prompt.

*Isham*’s *Jeronimo* takes a jaunty trek back through war-torn Britain and is an easy-to-read fun poem. I’m not sure whether to be proud or mortified that I understood all the references but I enjoyed it a lot. 

*East of Monday *by *Darkkin* has a surreal, dreamlike quality that characterises much of this talented poet’s work. The words and the imagery are breathtakingly beautiful and the poem captivated me from start to finish. I can’t claim to understand the meaning or message but, strangely, that feels almost unimportant.

*Götterdämerung* by *James Hercules Sutton *is an impeccably formatted poem that carries a deep and meaningful message. I liked the double appearance of the prompt with life being expunged without warning and sudden light appearing in the endless dark. I can appreciate the masterful construction here and congratulate James on his poetic ability.


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## rcallaci

I am thrilled beyond words over the commentaries by Isham and jenthepen. This challenge is becoming what I hoped it would be. Poets commenting on other poets works. I've done my own reviews but I will release those in the winner's circle. I loves jen's take on these poems, quite insightful. I cackled and manically laughed by being called 'the maestro of the occult'. seriously I got a kick out of it. This month's contest for me is the best and I only hope it continues to even get better, if that's possible. 

warmest
bob


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## Isham

keep bob happy.

send more crits.


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## NajaNoir

I rated *The Veil* by rcallaci first place because, I imagine there is nothing more fantastical than a collision between magic and science. This is something I want to see, and thanks to the poem, I was able to. It somehow felt to me, that not only could it be written on a page in a fantasy story, but that it could also appeal to men of science in a magazine somewhere. Bonus points for using both the LM and the Poetry prompt.

I gave Yggnate second place for *Rood Awakening* because I felt it too, was a very good use of the prompt, they took what I imagine is a particularly traumatic moment for the baby and brought it to life with some vivid imagery. 

Coming in at third is Ibb with *Gut Feeling*. I like this style of poetry, sort of fast and in your face, (I'm unaware of terms, sorry). Gut feelings are tricky things, was an interesting take of a persons selfishness outriding instinct. 

It was hard to rate them, I thought I knew right away and then many of you came in later, or ended up leaving a lasting impression, making the third vote the hardest for me. The one that came in the closest was:* Götterdämerung *by *James Hercules Sutton, *I've reread it a few times, it's really very lovely. 


A great prompt with vastly unique takes on it, good job everyone.


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## Moon Child

Um, hey, I'm normally a fiction writer but am trying with writing a poem for this December competition. Uh, does it need to include the word  gravity?


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## Darkkin

Moon Child said:


> Um, hey, I'm normally a fiction writer but am trying with writing a poem for this December competition. Uh, does it need to include the word  gravity?


As long as the concept is implied you'll be fine.


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## Moon Child

Darkkin said:


> As long as the concept is implied you'll be fine.



Thank you!


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## rcallaci

the voting will end later tonight. Those that didn't or forgot to vote please hit the vote button- I just voted but it said oops a little glitz but you just go to vote a pick out you picks nd it will work


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