# Absolute Beginner



## daxos372 (Nov 24, 2014)

Hi folks, first time poster. I'm at the very early stages of planning my first fictional novel and would appreciate some advice about whether to focus first on developing plot or characters. Any help/advice much appreciated.


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## popsprocket (Nov 24, 2014)

You should focus on both. Be aware though that characters don't often turn out like you plan. They have a way of evolving on their own and becoming entirely real creatures that might far exceed any expectations you had during the planning process.

If you want to know which to do _first_, then if you twisted my arm I'd say start with characters. Once you have an idea of your plot it can really help to shape the book to know exactly what you're working with. Knowing about your characters early on can help create relationships and conflict and general character development. Remember not to squeeze characters into a story and to let them do their own thing sometimes.


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## Sam (Nov 24, 2014)

Both. 

Without plot, you won't have any characters; and without characters, you won't have any plot.


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## Schrody (Nov 24, 2014)

popsprocket said:


> You should focus on both. Be aware though that characters don't often turn out like you plan. They have a way of evolving on their own and becoming entirely real creatures that might far exceed any expectations you had during the planning process.
> 
> If you want to know which to do _first_, then if you twisted my arm I'd say start with characters. Once you have an idea of your plot it can really help to shape the book to know exactly what you're working with. Knowing about your characters early on can help create relationships and conflict and general character development. Remember not to squeeze characters into a story and to let them do their own thing sometimes.



Accidentally LOL'd. Sorry. 

What really helps me with the new story - I like to think about it when I'm in bed, getting ready to sleep. I imagine scenes, characters, let my imagination to take me whenever it wants.

Secondly, I would advise you to just write and see where will it take you. You can always re-write it  Sometimes, not planning is the best thing you can do


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## Deleted member 56686 (Nov 24, 2014)

For me I tend to think of ideas when I'm already writing. Plan an outline with plot and characters (basically I'm echoing Sam and Pops here), but don't have it all etched in stone. Go with the flow and you may write a pretty good piece of literature :smile:


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## daxos372 (Nov 24, 2014)

Thanks for the reply folks, can't actually say that I'm much the wiser but then I knew that different people would have different views. I'm a fairly methodical thinker (as far as left brain planning goes) so was looking to see if people who know more about writing than I do would recommend starting with one or the other.


I reckon I'll go mostly with pops advice and focus on characters first while bearing in mind the most basic elements of plot so that some level of synergy begins to develop.


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## thepancreas11 (Nov 24, 2014)

Every story starts with an idea. You either start with a cool concept for a character, something like robocop, or you start with a cool "scenario", somewhere just sour if a plot, something like what if two characters fell in love but their houses were at war like in Romeo and Juliet. I'm assuming you have one or the other in your head already, right? Whichever it is, run with it. Go with either the plot or the character to get your idea off the ground. Then, when you start writing, make sure to add healthy doses of the other.


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## Schrody (Nov 24, 2014)

I know you expected different advice, but we can't tell you _how_ to write. We can only direct you about some technical stuff. Each writer has to give some time for their writing to evolve. Practice, experimenting, and reading are the key factors of the writing, I would say.


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## Jeko (Nov 24, 2014)

> I'm at the very early stages of planning my first fictional novel and would appreciate some advice about whether to focus first on developing plot or characters



In my mind, plot = characters. Plot is defined by how characters interact with each other based on their goals/experiences/etc, and characters are likewise defined by how they react with each other. Think about one and you should be thinking about the other.


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## Bishop (Nov 24, 2014)

I feel like your question is a lot like: "I'm building a house, should I worry about the roof, or the walls?"

Both characters and plot are necessary and incredibly intertwined in a book.


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## Sam (Nov 24, 2014)

Bishop said:


> I feel like your question is a lot like: "I'm building a house, should I worry about the roof, or the walls?"
> 
> Both characters and plot are necessary and incredibly intertwined in a book.



You should worry about the foundation. Without a good one, the house is gonna fall down.


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## Bishop (Nov 24, 2014)

So the foundation is... what..? The book binding? Yeah, that's it.


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## bazz cargo (Nov 24, 2014)

Ask ten writers, get fifty answers.

I suggest you try a few short stories and figure out your own take on what is which. 

For myself, a plot suggests the character and then the character rewrites the plot. And boy can they be argumentative. 

Good luck
BC


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## popsprocket (Nov 24, 2014)

daxos372 said:


> Thanks for the reply folks, can't actually say that I'm much the wiser but then I knew that different people would have different views. I'm a fairly methodical thinker (as far as left brain planning goes) so was looking to see if people who know more about writing than I do would recommend starting with one or the other.
> 
> 
> I reckon I'll go mostly with pops advice and focus on characters first while bearing in mind the most basic elements of plot so that some level of synergy begins to develop.



I'm a methodical thinker too. Nearly ended up as an engineer. Most people wouldn't pick me as the writing type. And I can tell you that it doesn't mean you need to break the writing process down this way.

Where you're stumbling here is that there isn't really one or the other that you _should_ "start with". Plot and characters aren't mutually exclusive so you can't develop one without the other. Don't try and separate them, just work on them together.


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## InstituteMan (Nov 24, 2014)

bazz cargo said:


> Ask ten writers, get fifty answers.
> 
> I suggest you try a few short stories and figure out your own take on what is which.
> 
> ...



Not everyone shares the philosophy of starting with short stories--but I definitely do. I was able to figure out so much out by writing short story after short story. Write it, eviscerate it, learn, move on.

To the degree I have a typical story creation process, I start with a premise (what if the moon really was made of cheese?), then come up with characters (say, a space monkey and Russian cosmonaut), and only then work out the plot (I have no idea what the plot would be for my space monkey and cosmonaut on a cheesy moon). Others take different approaches, which is cool, and I take different approaches sometimes myself, but if you are casting about for an approach the premise-->characters-->plot approach is worth a try.


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## Apex (Nov 28, 2014)

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## Jeko (Nov 28, 2014)

> "Just start writing, and in time you will get better at it." As true as that is, a shorter path is to first train yourself how to write a story...or go to school to learn.



'Train yourself how to write' and 'start writing' will never be anything other than the same thing. 

Same with 'going to school'; there are lots of methods and resources available to anyone who wants to consciously learn the craft, but all of them will advocate one thing: you need to be writing.


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## Apex (Nov 28, 2014)

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## John Galt (Nov 28, 2014)

Apex said:


> There are a billon ebook on the market by untained writers that are going no place, and make no money. Untrained has a very slim chance. It takes just as long to write a nothing book, as it does a good one.
> Most new writer believe they can write a great book. A few have...a very few. What do I suggest? I don't think most want to know.



To me, untrained doesn't mean without a degree (in creative writing or something to the same effect). I agree with this; one doesn't need a degree to write, but one does need knowledge. The internet is a brilliant source of writing "training". Of course, training without doing is quite pointless. It's all good and well to write, but one must learn whilst doing so.


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## Jeko (Nov 28, 2014)

> There are a billon ebook on the market by untained writers that are going no place, and make no money.



Indeed. They're 'in training', unless they've given up on trying to get better.

There are also a billion books on how to 'train' yourself as a writer that are stocking the bookshelves of morons and sucking up all their money while the writers themselves make nothing whatsoever. You should either be very selective where you get your doctrine from or stick to what most do: just breathe stories, in and out. 

Every step you take as a writer is a powerful lesson, as long as you want it to be one.



> It takes just as long to write a nothing book, as it does a good one



Nonsense; the quality of a story is the product of how much time and effort you put into it, relative to your talent, training and experience. You work harder on something, you make it better.

It's taken me five years and I still haven't written what I'd consider a 'good book'. It took me a few years to 'finish' my first full story; it's going to take many more years, I think, before I write, edit and manage to publish something that the literary sphere, or at least some part of it, will deem 'good'. All the stories I've written so far have been training for the novel I will someday write that will someday get published (God willing).


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## Apex (Nov 28, 2014)

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## Kyle R (Nov 28, 2014)

daxos342 said:
			
		

> I'm at the very early stages of planning my first fictional novel and would appreciate some advice about whether to focus first on developing plot or characters. Any help/advice much appreciated.



If you like learning from books, I thought _Plot Versus Character_: A Balanced Approach to Writing Great Fiction, by Jeff Gerke, was very instructive. :encouragement:


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## helium (Nov 28, 2014)

I believe you are a great writer already. You just finish writing a book and put it for sale on Amazon.


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## Apex (Nov 28, 2014)

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## Morkonan (Nov 28, 2014)

Apex said:


> My dog could walk in the mud, and I could put his paw prints on paper, and publish it on Amazon...would that make my dog a writer?



I bet it would sell...

Actually, that would be pretty awesome! It'd make a nice coffee-table book. 

I'm not kidding.


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## Apex (Nov 29, 2014)

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## Jeko (Nov 29, 2014)

> About 17 years ago they had a book in the big book stores, "The book of nothing." Every page was blank (hard cover.) I wonder how many the sold?



A notebook? It would probably get better stories in it than any modern-day bestseller.


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## Apex (Nov 29, 2014)

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## Jeko (Nov 29, 2014)

> You seem to have a problem with those who spend the time learning how to write



Not at all. I only have a problem with the idea that 'training' that doesn't involve actual writing leads you down a 'shorter path' to success.

We have a creative writing group at our school that works towards the new A level in Creative Writing; all we do there is free write, share what we've written and learn from the experience. We have focuses each week that help us expand our boundaries and understand and reach our potential. We've been given excerpts from books, but the immediate response to them is always, 'Now, write!'.

You learn how to write stories by writing stories. Everything else is just variation on that simple method, or unhelpful to the aspiring writer.



> Do I think an agent would accept your writing? No. It needs to go up a few more steps. The only thing holding you back…is you.



I've only just turned 18. For five years I've done little else than write story, learn from story, write story, learn from story, etc., and it's gotten me this far, and it's continuing to take me further. If I'm somehow holding myself back, stopping my perseverance with the craft and going into 'training' that doesn't involve actual storytelling would only hold me back more. I think I've got the time to keep going the way I am.


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## Apex (Nov 29, 2014)

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## Jeko (Nov 29, 2014)

> I'm not sure what type class you are in. Is the teacher have a history as a writer, editor, and publisher, or is she/he an English teacher?



It's not class; it's a creative writing group, led by an English teacher who stops being an English teacher the moment she walks through the door. She's working to improve her writing as much as we are.

When the exam board, AQA, consulted with one of the leaders of the National Writing Project for teachers over how 'lessons' for the new new A level should be conducted, he said that schools that offered the A level should create groups like ours: it shouldn't be a 'lesson', and it shouldn't feel like one.


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## Plasticweld (Nov 29, 2014)

Apex said:


> I have read your work on this forum. You can write, and you have a good style. Do I think an agent would accept your writing? No. It needs to go up a few more steps. The only thing holding you back…is you.
> Marching up and down the street with a sign, "I'm a published author won't make it so."




I would like to see some of  yours, when you first joined the forum you posted a number of works then deleted them. Are you still studying or are you writing?

You seem to promote the idea of studying verses actually writing. Of the posters here on this thread I can say I have read their work and it gives credibility to their words.  With the exception of the newer  writers here everyone has a body of work that the rest of us can read and make up our own mind how credible they.  


You seem are quick to offer advice  so it reasonable that I would want to see your level of writing. I can honestly say that, Bishop, Cadence, Morkonan, Kyle R, Instituteman, PopsRocket, Sam  Are well read here and respected, not because their nice guys or pals, some may even be un-likeable ...But because they can write they are respected for actually writing not dispensing advice


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## Deleted member 56686 (Nov 29, 2014)

Plasticweld said:


> I would like to see some of  yours, when you first joined the forum you posted a number of works then deleted them. Are you still studying or are you writing?
> 
> You seem to promote the idea of studying verses actually writing. Of the posters here on this thread I can say I have read their work and it gives credibility to their words.  With the exception of the newer  writers here everyone has a body of work that the rest of us can read and make up our own mind how credible they.
> 
> ...





 I would echo that and also ask a question of my own.

Is somebody suggesting there is only one way to learn how to write? Am I missing something? :scratch:


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## Apex (Nov 29, 2014)

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## Jeko (Nov 29, 2014)

> The person heading the class is an English teacher, following the instructions of other English teachers who are saying how to teach writing a fiction, and or, a non-fiction story?



No; the only instructions she's following are her own and, loosely, those of the exam board, which are, as I've already stated, to facilitate the regular practice of the craft in order to train those who use it.

We learn the 'science' you're talking about just like we learn science at school; by doing experiments. You can only get so much from a textbook.



> Plasticweld;
> You are a Forum Moderator, which give you the liberty at time be a bully.



Plasticweld isn't bullying you, he's encouraging you to share more of your work so that people who read your advice can have more confidence in following your approach to the craft.


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## Pluralized (Nov 29, 2014)

daxos372 said:


> I reckon I'll go mostly with pops advice and focus on characters first while bearing in mind the most basic elements of plot so that some level of synergy begins to develop.



Both, either. Neither. You have no way to know what you're going to be good at until you get some story out of your head and onto paper/screen. You'll see people pontificating about the virtues of personable and relatable characters, which is undeniably true. You'll see others ranting about how plot must control all, and that setting/theme is as much a part of it all. We can turn any issue into an argument 'round here, it seems. So write what makes you smile. From my perspective, you kind of need stuff for your character to 'do' or the character is going to seem dull. But there are writers out there who can conjure up amazing characterization with very thin plots. Either way, clock's ticking. Get after it!


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## hvysmker (Nov 29, 2014)

Basically, you need a Main Character, a Setting, and a Plot.

Which comes first? Whichever you want to come first.

Let's  say with a Main Character.  My favorite is a hard-boiled private detective.  Since he doesn't have a case at the moment, he gets up at noon, hungover. Hitting the street, he goes into his favorite coffee shop. Then your imagination clicks into focus. You can imagine him meeting any sort of person, hearing about a local news event, anything.  Whatever would interest an out of work PI.  That beautiful girl at  the next table is crying.  Why?  Her problem will suggest a plot, sure as heck.  It might even give you a setting.  Her problem is in Florida, or Alaska.

Or, you start with a setting in Alaska. Look around.  Who do you see?  You see your Main Character peddling a canoe.  What's he or she doing? Why, they're involved in your plot.

Maybe you have a plot in mind, one with a social message. Start with that.  The plot alone may suggest either a MC or a Setting.  Throw one in and the other will surely follow.  If you build it, someone will come.

It all depends on YOUR imagination.  If you don't have that attribute, you'd better turn to non-fiction.  What you need is something, one or more of those three.  Add your imagination and you're off to the races.

Charlie


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## Apex (Nov 29, 2014)

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## InstituteMan (Nov 29, 2014)

Wow, a guy disappears into the hills for a day or two, and conversations tend to drift . . . 

To go back to the issue of the absolute beginner, I would say that for such an aspiring writer who hasn't actually learned how to write yet, worrying about any endgame for actually maybe possibly making money would be a mistake. First, figure out how to write. More importantly, figure out how _you _write. 

I have been more than willing to dole out advice around here for things to try, things that have worked for me, but I don't pretend to believe that the approaches that have worked for me will work for everyone else. On the other hand, I do believe that virtually all of us, including me, benefit from trying things that work for others occasionally; even if the attempt is unsuccessful, there's much to be learned in the trying (IMO).

As for what one is to do when or if their writing skills advance to a point that there may be a market for their work, well, worrying about that too soon is really borrowing trouble. The entire publishing industry is rapidly changing at the moment, which isn't that special since most other industries are rapidly changing at the moment. The business is likely to be so different by the time a true beginner is ready to sell something that any attempt to write to a particular business model will miss the mark, because the target business model will have morphed or disappeared entirely a few years from now. The absolute beginner needs to learn the craft before worrying about marketing the craft.


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## bookmasta (Nov 29, 2014)

Writing is just like any other skill, you only get better by practice. It seems like these days there are an abundance of people boasting their skill garnered by having an agent, or who taught who. For the most part, its all a bunch of hogwash, IMO. Everyone boasts some different variation, method, thought process to writing, and each seems to find it necessary to instruct new writers how to write by their process. The day I decided I wanted to be a novelist and officially move on from short stories, I didn't run out looking for newest book on craft. Nor did I approach a writer's group, or look for an author to mentor me. That day I sat down and wrote 3,210 words. The following day, I did the same, writing in a abundance of 3,000+ words a day, and did so for the whole summer. Since that time years ago, I've only missed three days of writing to be a camp counselor, and I've never written under a minimum of 1,000 words. 

The point is, you to become a better writer by writing. That's it. Everything else albeit reading similar authors to your genre is subjective and open to interpretation, which I've watched over countless threads people debate until the end of time. On the matter plot of characters, both are essential, and are needed, otherwise, you don't have a story.


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## Jeko (Nov 29, 2014)

> The first book I wrote in 1996 I still have. It contains every mistake a writer can make twice over. Bad plot, and very bad writing. I followed the advice of those who said, “Just start writing.”



So you wrote to begin with, which led you on on 'training' that only came to fruition once you started writing again. Your exploration of the craft has started and and is continuing with the practice of the craft itself. 

I don't know why you had to stop writing to look at what 'how to' books and agents were saying, though. 

Also, Stein himself learned by writing stories and having other people tear them to shreds. He got better at stories because his teachers were always talking about his stories. Looking at what authors and agents say is useful, but there's no compromise, IMO, for writing a story and having someone who knows a thing or two, or just a casual reader, give you an honest critique of it. That's what Stein does, and that's what we do on this forum, and that's what we do in my school's creative writing group, and that requires the writer to write.


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## InstituteMan (Nov 29, 2014)

bookmasta said:


> It seems like these days they are an abundance of people boasting their skill garnered by having an agent, or who taught who. For the most part, its all a bunch of hogwash, IMO. Everyone boasts some a different variation, method, thought process to writing, and each seems to find it necessary to instruct new writers how to write by their process.



One thing that I have learned from posting and critiquing here is how varied "good" writing can be. Just as there are spectacularly successful, much beloved books that I simply don't like, there are talented writers here who create art I don't get. That's okay. I read others' comments and I learn to appreciate things I never knew were there to appreciate. That's awesome!

Different readers are looking for different things, so who am I to complain because bookmasta wrote something that connects with someone else more than it connects with me? (aside: that's not really the case, I'm just using books as an example because I am quoting his intelligent reply) I can help point out where I found a bit ungrammatical, or confusing, or repetitive, and I hope that my advice along those lines helps other writers from time to time. 

I am keenly aware that I am not some oracle from on high who can hand down binding dictates for how to write anything. If I were the grand arbiter of writing success, Fitzgerald would be more poorly regarded than he is, but Zelazny would be studied in every literature class in the English speaking world. I don't get to set the literary canon, though. I also don't get to tell people how to write. I can suggest and recommend, but that's really all.

Write on, is the best advice for the absolute beginner.


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## Apex (Nov 29, 2014)

bookmasta said:


> Writing is just like any other skill, you only get better by practice. It seems like these days they are an abundance of people boasting their skill garnered by having an agent, or who taught who. For the most part, its all a bunch of hogwash, IMO. Everyone boasts some a different variation, method, thought process to writing, and each seems to find it necessary to instruct new writers how to write by their process. The day I decided I wanted to be a novelist and officially move on from short stories, I didn't run out looking for newest book on craft. Nor did I approach a writer's group, or look for an author to mentor me. That day I sat down and wrote 3,210 words. The following day, I did the same, writing in a abundance of 3,000+ words a day and did so for the whole summer. Since that time years ago, I've only missed three days of writing to be a camp counselor, and I've never written under a minimum of 1,000 words.
> 
> The point is, you to become a better writer by writing. That's it. Everything else albeit reading similar authors to your genre is subjective and open to interpretation, which I've watched over countless threads people debate until the end of time. On the matter plot of characters, both are essential, and are needed, otherwise, you don't have a story.



I guess it depends on where you want your book...with a standard publisher, or Amazon. I see your first book will be with Amazon. One question, "You are still in school, and feel the best way to write is to just start writing. Does that mean all the experts who run the publishing industry don't know what they are talking about?


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## Jeko (Nov 29, 2014)

> I guess it depends on where you want your book...with a standard publisher, or Amazon. I see your first book will be with Amazon.



Which is better: a writer who 'just writes' and never touches any 'training' material on the craft, or a writer who just looks at the training material and never actually writes?

Maybe the former will only get as far as Amazon. Most do; the statistics are horrible. But the latter isn't even going to get to the contents page.


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## Kyle R (Nov 29, 2014)

Cadence said:


> Which is better: a writer who 'just writes' and never touches any 'training' material on the craft, or a writer who just looks at the training material and never actually writes?



I think the writer who studies _and_ writes will be better than either of them. 

Just my own personal opinion. :encouragement:


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## Jeko (Nov 29, 2014)

> I think the writer who studies _and writes will be better than either of them_



So do I. My point is that the writing itself is the vital element. Your stories won't get told until you sit down and tell them. Likewise, how will you know how to apply the advice of experts if you have nothing to apply it to?

It all rests of the writing itself.


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## helium (Nov 29, 2014)

The writer must also have subjects to write about. If you are forcing out plot/characters/prose you got to get better material.


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## bookmasta (Nov 29, 2014)

Apex said:


> I guess it depends on where you want your book...with a standard publisher, or Amazon. I see your first book will be with Amazon. One question, "You are still in school, and feel the best way to write is to just start writing. Does that mean all the experts who run the publishing industry don't know what they are talking about?



This is in relation to that of a beginning writer who can't hold the gravity of what said experts represent with their own significant styles within the craft of writing, as most advice given is to that of not a writer who is mildly experienced or possesses the work of a few novels under their belt, but are attempting their first, or may even be writing for the first time. Even if you were to show a w writer writing their first story the difference between showing and telling in an example, it would be highly unlikely that said writing would be able to portray the same skill to show rather than tell of said example simply because they aren't experienced enough. Those writers who do have mentors are mostly likely at some level that the author finds value in teaching them and in turn, the writer is likely to be able to hold and thrive from the advice of the author through understanding and will of testament to that particular style the author may represent. However, I don't write for publishers, an agent, or anyone else for that matter. Its arbitrary. I write simply for the love of writing and the magic words possess and the meaning they can reach people with. That's all. 

I do believe in critiques and I seek them out frequently, as well as continuing to learn the craft of writing. However, I don't believe in tethering myself to one particular style or the teachings of one particular author. Indie publishing is also my choice. Its where I want to be, rather than with a traditional publishing house.


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## K.S. Crooks (Nov 29, 2014)

They need to go together. Think about where your characters are now both mentally and physically, where do you want them to be at the end and what obstacles lie between. Think of the growth you want your characters to go through and what needs to happen for that growth to take place. Also be prepared for things to happen in the story that you did not plan. your characters will take on traits and the story will develop in ways you could not conceive of at the beginning of the story. Enjoy the process as much as the results.


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## mommytozachandgrace (Dec 3, 2014)

I would say that characters and plot go together.  I'm just attempting my first novel and before I started writing I had visions of the plot and the main characters in my mind.  There will be a few characters that pop up as I don't know fully which direction this story will take, but in general I would say it's good to have a general idea of both.


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## Jared77 (Dec 8, 2014)

Welcome to the forums!



daxos372 said:


> Hi folks, first time poster. I'm at the very early stages of planning my first fictional novel and would appreciate some advice about whether to focus first on developing plot or characters. Any help/advice much appreciated.



Yes. :grin:


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