# Drugs in the water supply?



## Deleted member 49710 (Sep 28, 2012)

So, here's a fun thing maybe to think about. Obviously, there'd be consequences - these kinds of drugs have side effects and different ones for different people, right? I've been imagining there'd be a small percentage of the population who would have bad reactions and have to be dealt with in various institutional ways.

I don't feel the need to be extremely precise about the chemistry - my narrator wouldn't know that stuff anyway - but I would like to be able to use such a scenario without provoking too much ridicule or contempt. 

Thoughts?


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## Jon M (Sep 28, 2012)

I think it's a lovely idea, especially if it is kept in the background as a way to give the story texture, and just hinted at from time to time. To make it work I don't think you would need to do too much research, just look into the side-effects of valium and various other drugs, anti-depressants included, and occasionally show those effects happening to people in the world. I think the more mysterious the drug cocktail is, the better -- I like the idea that people know there's something in the water, but not what exactly. And different characters in the story could have different theories, with variable accuracy. 

Having drugs in the water might prompt a lot of people to become chemists themselves, to set up home-made labs to analyze the water. There might even be an entire underground market of items intended to nullify the effects of this drug cocktail, again with potentially harmful or fatal effects (worse than the original cocktail even).

There's really a lot of ways this idea affects the society in general, and I think that is the most fascinating idea -- not necessarily what's in the water.


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## Whisper (Sep 28, 2012)

The simplist way is just to create the drug and the side effects. I don't think it would be necessary to try to figure out a chemical forumula. Just create a name, what it does and what the side effects are or could be. No fuss, no muss.


There are many movies and books that have population control through the use of drugs as a theme and making up a drug is usually the perferred method. You could look some of these up for inspiration.



For example, you could create the drug - Piloo. Piloo is injected into the cities water supply and used to supress violent emotions of a population forced to live underground in crowded situations. It also acts as a contraceptive. The problem is that it also causes blindness in about .003 percent of the population. This is a rumored side effect as no matter where or how hard you look there are no blind people to bee seen anywhere. Which, is a statistical improbability.   


I think the bottom line is that if you try to use existing drugs you'll be expected to stick with the rules of the drug and it's side effects. But, if you create your own, well, there is no limit.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Sep 28, 2012)

Hi Jon and Whisper - thanks very much for your replies. I have looked up side effects for a couple different things and have been going off the interwebs, just not feeling like I know what I'm talking about. I guess I should just decide on a list of side effects I want to use and go on from there.



> *Jon M: *I like the idea that people know there's something in the water, but not  what exactly. And different characters in the story could have  different theories, with variable accuracy.


There's general knowledge that there is a "health supplement" but that's understood to mean vitamins and minerals that are lacking in the diet, so the only people who would need to know about the anti-depressants etc. would be, I think, people in medical professions and a few others. So it's kept in the background most of the time, until a point where it has to be explained.



> *Jon M: *There's really a lot of ways this idea affects the society in general,  and I think that is the most fascinating idea -- not necessarily what's  in the water.


Yeah, that's another reason I'm not too concerned about the actual stuff; I just want to make sure that I'm not ignoring some key aspect (i.e. put a contraceptive in the water supply = everybody goes through puberty at age 3) and that people who are more knowledgeable than me aren't all "That's unpossible!" about it. I'm much more interested in how it plays out on a character level, but getting side effects right is going to matter there, too.

I think I'm going for the most passive-aggressive culture ever. Have to make them exciting somehow though; luckily they do get bored of themselves and try things.



> *Whisper: *There are many movies and books that have population control through the  use of drugs as a theme and making up a drug is usually the preferred  method. You could look some of these up for inspiration.


Any you would especially recommend? I don't get to do as much reading as I'd like, unfortunately, so I'm not always aware of what's out there for contemporary SF.


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## Jon M (Sep 28, 2012)

lasm said:


> Hi Jon and Whisper - thanks very much for your replies. I have looked up side effects for a couple different things and have been going off the interwebs, just not feeling like I know what I'm talking about. I guess I should just decide on a list of side effects I want to use and go on from there.


May want to add Pharmacokinetics / Pharmacodynamics to your list of things to research / terms to know. May prove to be useful. Simply put, they describe what the body does to the drug (former) and what the drug does to the body (latter).

I like Whisper's idea of making up a new drug, but I also like using an older, established drug as a springboard and marry the two. That way it feels more real, like the future really has grown out of the past. So instead of Valium, for example, come up with something new ... like Nu-val or something.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Sep 28, 2012)

Googling around, yes, that is useful, I think. Not feeling smart enough for it today (semi-recovered from a semi-all night paper writing binge) but it will be good to come back to when my poor brain has its powers back.

I like the idea of deforming and mashing together current drug names, people could probably recognize the component parts/purposes without being told if I did it right. And I like making up words.

Thank you again, you are very helpful.


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## dolphinlee (Sep 28, 2012)

In the real world women take the pill.  A lot of the female hormones in the pill are urinated out.  The hormones end up in the water supply.  Then there are the estrogen like hormones given to livestock that also end up in the water supply.

Effects: 

These female hormones 'feminise' males.  Human males can develop man boobs. Sperm counts go down. 

A man who undergoes treatment to become a woman will be given female hormones.  Male characteristics diminish. Female characteristics develop.  Go to the section on changes in this site. There is a wealth of ideas here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_(male-to-female)

Women who get too much can experience severe premenstrual symptoms, hot flashes, sweats, be quick to anger.  ref: The Effects of Too Much Estrogen in Women | eHow.com

Now you have women who are irrational because of the contraceptives.  How are you going to calm them?

N.B.  A human should drink a certain amount of water. (kilograms/30 = amount in litres) Sometimes people drink too much. Sometimes people drink a little.   

I hope the above is a little help with your concept. 

"Follow your heart and become what you dream." - Robert Jones


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## Jon M (Sep 29, 2012)

lasm said:


> I like the idea of deforming and mashing together current drug names, people could probably recognize the component parts/purposes without being told if I did it right.



Also, with this, keep in mind that certain kinds of drugs have the same suffixes. For example, Beta-Blockers typically end in -olol (i.e., atenolol). ACE Inhibitors end in -pril (i.e., enalapril).



> And I like making up words.


Really? Would have never guessed. :lol:


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## Deleted member 49710 (Sep 29, 2012)

Dolphinlee, thanks for your help! Yes, this is one of the worries, I don't really want my male characters to have breasts or have other feminine traits. Nor do I want my female characters to be all PMSy all the time. Right now I'm thinking maybe I can just say, It's the future, we figured out how to avoid that, yay! and hope for adequate suspension of disbelief.

Jon, good to know - will have to take that into account as I mix up my fun little drugname cocktail.


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## dolphinlee (Sep 29, 2012)

Iasm 

Easy peasy!  have the women given subdermal contraceptives. 
Subdermal implants for long term contraception

As it is the future these can be lifelong implants. Maybe they should be implanted deeply so they cannot be remove except by a doctor. (idea - some people have bad reactions maybe you could lose a few people this way.)

Now your problem is when and how to implant the women.  

Next!


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## The Backward OX (Sep 29, 2012)

If you’re going to start messing with interactions between various drugs, my suggestion is to make it all up. By the time you’ve finished reading the background to just one real drug, your mind will be spinning.


ETA: Last week our local rag carried a report about hundreds of catfish dying in our river, the source of all our drinking water. And a few weeks ago there was another report about birds dying on the foreshores of a tributary of that river. No one has yet explained either phenomenon. If your story has underground water, maybe something like this would add some flavour (pun not intended).


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## Cran (Sep 29, 2012)

dolphinlee said:


> Iasm
> 
> Easy peasy!  have the women given subdermal contraceptives.
> Subdermal implants for long term contraception
> ...



Easiest would be at birth or at some required vaccination age - coincide with rubella vaccine, for instance?


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## Deleted member 49710 (Sep 30, 2012)

Thanks, dolphinlee and Cran, for the ideas about the subdermal implants - I do know about those, just didn't think of it for some reason, and that is a good idea. Might impede some plot developments I had in mind, but I'm still deciding how it will all shake out, so might end up using it after all.

Ox, yes, you're right about that. That's part of why I started this thread, because I'd looked at the side effects for Valium and I think Ritalin and Adderall and a few other things (calm, docile but productive citizens, is the goal), and my eyes were beginning to tear up and cross a little, so I thought, I will ask the mighty and intelligent Fora Folk what they think.


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## Cran (Sep 30, 2012)

*Ox*, I hope they find out what caused the mass deaths, and can ensure the water supply stays viable.

*lasm*, I'm not sure what plot developments you have in mind, but Jon M's idea of an underground resistance working to undo whatever the establishment puts in place could help. 

Another potential twist is the_ Miranda_* effect - 90% (or was it 99%?) die of lack of will to do anything; the other 10% (or 1%) have the opposite response to the one intended (pacification) and turn ultra-savage. It doesn't need to be that extreme, but a minority showing either or both side-effects might help. 

*from _Serenity_.


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## dolphinlee (Sep 30, 2012)

*Warning this post may cause men to cross their legs.

*​Just had a thought to make the drug situation easier. One that removes the need for contraceptive drugs.

Boy babies are born with their fully formed, but not functioning, testicles inside them. So if today babies can be circumcised a while after birth, why not give all boy babies the snip. To be honest the proceedure is quick and efficient and if enough of the tube is taken out then there is no danger of it growing back together. 

(You could have a few eunuchs as well if you like)
​


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## The Backward OX (Sep 30, 2012)

Oh, yeah, sure, and where, eventually, would all the new babies come from? Under gladioli? Or does your brave new world include virgin birth?


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## Deleted member 49710 (Sep 30, 2012)

To be a little more specific - the plot development I'm debating is an unintended pregnancy. So if the girl has an implant she doesn't know about (and therefore wouldn't have removed) or if the guy's had a vasectomy, that wouldn't be possible. But it would be possible, and in fact not improbable, if they were to get outside the city (away from treated water) and have lots of sex - and having been in no danger of pregnancy in the city, they wouldn't think to worry about it outside. 

On the one hand, this seems to me to offer some possibilities and to be a logical extension of the initial situation. On the other, I worry it's a little soap-operatic. Hence my uncertainty.

And Ox, no, they'd grow 'em in the cabbage patch, obviously... or order them from Stork.com. Or test tubes. Petri dishes. All kinds of ways.

I do thank everyone for the suggestions, I appreciate your putting thought into my little ideas.


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## Cran (Sep 30, 2012)

If escape to the outside for extended periods is possible, and the outside water supply safe to drink, then wouldn't your underground city notice a trend of missing persons? 

On the other hand, and as a means to allow registered pregnancies, the implants could be made to respond to a certain range of radio frequencies. A health check of approved applicants could include a coded signal to switch off the implant's receiver and allow pregnancy to occur. Stray too far from the city/radio source, and the signal is lost due to the surrounding rock.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Oct 1, 2012)

Cran said:


> If escape to the outside for extended periods is possible, and the outside water supply safe to drink, then wouldn't your underground city notice a trend of missing persons?


There would be a trend of missing people in the underground period. But  if the city is overpopulated and the government had a lot of other  stuff to deal with, I think they'd just write those people off as a  loss, call them suicides because chances are they would be. (and it may later be oh so convenient that not everyone lives in cities!)

The actual story I've been working on takes place when the city has been above ground for a while. The climate is still not great but depending on the time of year, one could survive a while. There's more than one city, each operating autonomously, so the characters think they can get to the next one.



> On the other hand, and as a means to allow registered pregnancies, the  implants could be made to respond to a certain range of radio  frequencies. A health check of approved applicants could include a coded  signal to switch off the implant's receiver and allow pregnancy to  occur. Stray too far from the city/radio source, and the signal is lost  due to the surrounding rock.


This is a good idea and I may use it. Solves the problem of pregnant women not being able to drink the water. Thanks!


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## ppsage (Oct 1, 2012)

Unless the drinking water is divided from the rest, putting drugs in the supply is probably going to be either hugely expensive or ineffectual. In contemporary industrial society only a tiny fraction of the water is actually consumed and much of that after sufficient heating to probably render drugs useless. Also, even with seperation, dosage will vary widely depending on personal use of water. I, for instance would get almost none unless it could survive boiling for tea. Or could be absorbed while indolently bathing. These conditions will doubtless be different in your society but it will take considerable explaination to make it enough so that effective (or believable) drugging could take place in this fashion. Except for the occasional alkaline oasis in western lore, drugs in the water supply seems to me to be pretty much an unworkable myth. Bacteria, on the other hand, as evidenced for instance by cholera, are effective at tiny concentrations and widely varying dosage. Not sure how advanced your society is, biotechnologically.


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## bazz cargo (Oct 1, 2012)

You could put contraceptives into all alcohol and tobacco products.


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## Olly Buckle (Oct 1, 2012)

I find it kind of surprising that no-one has mentioned Brave New World, apart from an oblique reference by Ox. The perfect fiction example of a population controlled by drugs. They don't get put in the water supply, as pp sage points out most water doesn't get drunk anyway, they are willingly consumed by people who would find life unbearable without them, of course, if you want the twist, they may be getting more than they think they are, like the agent that does nothing but is massively addictive, to keep them taking it and not becoming disaffected.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Oct 1, 2012)

ppsage - that is a very good point, and I think it's conceivable that the supply of drinking water could be separated from, say, toilet water, water used in industrial settings, for cleaning, etc. Drinking water could be bottled. There isn't much else to drink, not much in the way of liquor or beer or juice or anything. Just flavored and carbonated water, sometimes with recreational drugs added for fun.

Bazz - No smoking in an enclosed city, I think, it would muck things up - besides, you wouldn't grow tobacco when you needed to grow food, would you? Actually I'm thinking addictive drugs are illegal, too many problems associated with them, and that'll include alcohol and nicotine. But light, non-physiologically addictive would be okay, as mentioned above.

Olly - I've been meaning to read that for a while, just haven't been able to get to it. It's high on the list of post-semester reading materials, though. 

Thanks for the suggestions everybody - I'm kind of halfassed at this world-building thing as it is not really my primary focus, more background stuff - but the background helps determine the foreground so it's important that I think about it more, and you all are certainly helping me do that.


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## Olly Buckle (Oct 2, 2012)

> Olly - I've been meaning to read that for a while, just haven't been able to get to it. It's high on the list of post-semester reading materials, though.


 Allow for a couple of days of black depression, then read 'Island' as well, same author.


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## Cran (Oct 6, 2012)

> Drinking water could be bottled.


Yes, but that sets up another recycling regime. 

In an enclosed city-sized system built from scratch, 
separate water supply networks and pipelines would be 
more efficient and economical in the long term. 

I still wouldn't recommend it for contraceptive treatments,
but there is already a conspiracy theory about lithium salts
being added to some municipal water supplies as a means 
to calm the population. 

Neurosurgeon Uncovers Fluoride & Lithium Conspiracies Part 1 of 4 - YouTube


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## Deleted member 49710 (Oct 6, 2012)

Thanks for the link! God, radio hosts make my skin crawl. I've heard of the conspiracy theory, I'm sure that's why the idea of putting drugs in the water came to mind. I see lithium can cause birth defects, though, so if you were the generally benign totalitarian governing body that I imagine, I don't think you'd want to use that.

I was thinking they'd reuse the water bottles, but yes, maybe a separate set of pipes would be more efficient.


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## Cran (Oct 6, 2012)

If you're going to control pregnancies, you can also control what the expectant mothers ingest; special supplements which ostensibly replace things lost by living underground, like vitamin D, but which also counter the side effects of chemicals in the water that cause birth defects.


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## dolphinlee (Oct 6, 2012)

Hi Iasm,

When you find the answer to one question three more spring up. 

Take heart sometime, somewhere the whole thing will fall into place and you'll kick yourself for not having thought of the solution sooner.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Oct 7, 2012)

> *Cran: *If you're going to control pregnancies, you can also control what the  expectant mothers ingest; special supplements which ostensibly replace  things lost by living underground, like vitamin D, but which also  counter the side effects of chemicals in the water that cause birth  defects.


Yeah, I was thinking the initial justification for adding a supplement to the water would have been these physical health issues due to lack of sun and limited diet in an underground dwelling. Now that I think about it there's going to be almost no discussion of pregnancy while the characters are in the city - it's just not an issue for them until they get outside - and I think the implant thing is a good way to accomplish that.



dolphinlee said:


> When you find the answer to one question three more spring up.


Isn't that always the way?



> Take heart sometime, somewhere the whole thing will fall into place and you'll kick yourself for not having thought of the solution sooner.


Thanks for the encouragement! I'm having to concentrate most of my attention elsewhere right now, which means creative stuff is on the backburner with occasional boilings over. This often works pretty well, though.


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## Nickleby (Oct 8, 2012)

If it were my story, I'd have the pharmaceuticals given out by medical personnel. That way the dosages are controlled for each person and monitored by someone who sees them regularly. They don't have to be doctors, more like school nurses.

Because everyone gets pills, no one feels it's unusual to take lots of them. Because individuals hand them out, it's possible for an individual to withhold certain pills for certain results (such as pregnancy). By "pills" I mean anything that could be ingested, such as bags of potato chips or wax cylinders of sugar water, anything that could hold medication (including the pressed and buffered powders we call _pills_). If someone stopped taking all their pills at once, such as after leaving the supervision of their nurse, they'd have a period of withdrawal, followed by some very unusual sensations.

Why not have a computer give out the pills? It would be more accurate, but it might not have the flexibility to handle a case where a "patient" lost control. Then again, a computer might have the resources to scan everyone on a regular basis and analyze samples (say, through elimination). The computer would recognize a pattern and summon help almost before the patient knew there was a problem (which also lays the groundwork for "interventions" where nothing's wrong except possible social disruption).


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## Deleted member 49710 (Oct 8, 2012)

Hi Nickleby - I think ppsage above also raised the issue of dosage and I like your idea of having a computerized system that determines proper quantities and such. Actually it would probably integrate well into the units where I've got people sleeping, easy enough (I think) to have the bed take certain measurements and the unit dispense a sort of health drink that everyone takes automatically, and the mixture altered as necessary for pregnancy, illness or whatever. 

My one issue is that people would then be more aware that they _are_ taking something, even if they think it's just vitamins, and then they're more likely to question it. I want this to go mostly unnoticed until it's revealed to the MC. 

I suppose there's the withdrawal, though, to make people feel bad if they don't take it. That might be explanation enough for universal compliance and if everybody does it, maybe they'll just go with the herd.

Thanks for your very helpful comment!


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## Bloggsworth (Oct 8, 2012)

Brave New World.


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## Vendetta5885 (Dec 3, 2012)

If you're dealing with a single city then drinking water is a good avenue as it would come from a public treatment facility; however, if this was over a broader region then drinking water sources vary from place to place.  It would also potentially be an inconsistent dosage as many people drink different quantities of water in a given day.  Basically, athletes whose primary drink is water would be essentially screwed.  And if you're looking for a specific drug I would say the more vague you are the better, but if you want to be specific you would need to make sure that the drug/chemical is water soluble (duhh) and also something that could potentially attack brain function (i.e. Mercury).  There are several forms of Mercury that are water soluble such as Mercuric Chloride and Methyl Mercury.  The best thing to do would to look up MSDS's for various chemicals or Human Health Risk Assessments, which will detail how chemicals impact the body and you can just play with it.

Science lesson done.

-Colin


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## Foxee (Dec 3, 2012)

I don't know how I missed this thread before, it's older than I thought. I'm not going to read all the replies so forgive me if my thoughts have already been expressed.

I have read that some drugs can have the opposite effect of what is intended if they're taken incorrectly...and putting something in the water supply would be wonderfully difficult to control dosage-wise. I believe there are some drugs that are meant to help depression or hyperactivity that can cause suicidal tendencies or...more hyperactivity if they're taken in the wrong dosage or by someone who doesn't need the meds. So if you introduced a steady (or somewhat steady) dose of an unnamed calming drug some in the population might be unaffected, some might react as intended, and there might be a few who become violent, hyper, or whatnot.

Also, if you distill water that would very likely clean it of the drug so some people may rebel by distilling their water or they may distill it for other reasons (fear of drinking too many chemicals used to purify it would be a common one) such as just trying to be healthier. After all, if you're recirculating a finite amount of water, you'll have to work really hard to keep pollutants from building up in it.

Contraceptives in the water, hm, that's an interesting idea. Maybe the only thought I can give you here is that men and women wouldn't respond the same to most chemical contraceptive measures so you'd really have to push this into some futuristic 'it works because I say so' kind of scenario. Actually, considering that you're already playing with brain chemistry with the first drug you might try suppressing whatever part of the brain is responsible for the libido rather than trying to act on hormones? Remove the desire for sex.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.


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## the antithesis (Dec 3, 2012)

lasm said:


> I don't feel the need to be extremely precise about the chemistry - my narrator wouldn't know that stuff anyway - but I would like to be able to use such a scenario without provoking too much ridicule or contempt.



Given that, I would probably just read the side effects on a pack of cold medicine and use that. It depends on how much the side effects figure into the plot, but otherwise it would just do whatever I want.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Dec 3, 2012)

Hey, good to see this thread resurrected. Thanks, Vendetta, Foxee, and Antithesis for your advice. What I've landed up with in this regard, for now anyway, is [redacted government secrets! ]


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## Foxee (Dec 3, 2012)

This sounds like it'll be a good read! Get workin'.


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## the antithesis (Dec 4, 2012)

This reminds me of This Perfect Day by Ira Levin. It was about a 1984-esque dystopia with most of the population on some kind of drugs. May be worth a look if you're into reading similar works to your idea.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Dec 4, 2012)

Thanks! I'll look into that. Ira Levin is always fun, anyway.


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## Morkonan (Dec 10, 2012)

lasm said:


> ...Thoughts?



That's easy - Invent unobtainiumodiol!

Your idea is a brilliant one, btw. Just letting you know that. 

People are familiar with the idea of oral contraception. You're safe,there. People are also familiar with the idea of drug side-effects, even with oral contraceptives. You're safe, there. There's no need to worry about any ridicule or contempt for a perfectly plausible application of already known mechanics, common in the present-day. None. You are free to do as you will, carry on.

Note: If your narrator discovers something about how the process works by which the population is being controlled/sculpted by whatever authority that has taken upon itself to assume the responsibility, then I would advise you to mention some sort of mechanism that prevents the additives from being broken down by common water-treatment processes and additives. Chlorine,for instance, is an oxidizer and does all sorts of nasty things to certain compounds, which is why it's used to begin with. Heat, UV treatment, filtering, etc.. might also introduce a level of incredulity if those alternative means were used to sanitize the water supply. So, introduce either a particularly robust compound or something in the way of a binary compound or one that requires a particular catalyst. Maybe all the pipes in the treatment and distribution network are made of high-grade aluminum while the ones in living quarters for the unsuspecting plebes are made of copper, resulting in a reaction that turns treatment resistant unobtainium chloride into unobtainiumodiol? Maybe there's a food additive that combines with a popular drink to produce the desired effects? Maybe the ruling population doesn't consume these things?


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