# Visiting Time



## ned (Jan 3, 2018)

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## Squalid Glass (Jan 3, 2018)

This has a very melancholy rhythm. The enjambment and stanza breaks are masterfully done. 

The stanza referencing tech language threw me out of the poem, but it is so rhythmic I'd hate to see you take it out.


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## Pelwrath (Jan 5, 2018)

Ned, a few thoughts on a provocative poem.

3rd stanza:  remove both “with” into your image and my mind.
4th stanza:  eliminate “but”
5th stanza: remove “and”

Thanks for sharing.


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## sas (Jan 5, 2018)

As SG referenced, this seems like two poems, not well connected images. An abruptness that jars the reader out of the poem to wonder, "What?"

 I could see it ending after 4th stanza.


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## ned (Jan 5, 2018)

hello - thank you all for reading and commenting.

I have edited the poem and ditched the tech verse, since it doesn't seem to chime...
looking for an analogy too far, perhaps.
I posted this one a bit raw, as I didn't want to overwork it........and that probably shows.

Pel - losing the little words speeds up the voice - not really the effect I want.
but it helps more when thoughts are given with some sort of justification - 

cheers...............Ned


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## Squalid Glass (Jan 5, 2018)

I like the edit. Solid.


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## sas (Jan 5, 2018)

When a word is used twice in one stanza, make it important and intended; removes reader doubt. Plus, as I write confessional poetry, it is always a struggle for me not to begin with the word "I", and not to overload a poem with it. 

Maybe this?:

Only in snatches
can I grasp
Only in circles
can I follow

Same elimination of "I" on this stanza:

where all that's felt
is the ground beneath

Why so impersonal on this stanza?:
"with your image"
(with your eyes)
I think use of "eyes" twice would work. 
Consider another line than: "with my mind". Impersonal, again.

I'd drop "yet", on this stanza, in order to start with strength, lose "oblivious":

I am here
alone inside
unafraid
undismayed

I usually am not fond of questions in poems, but the theme fits. Personally, I'd end it with the question, and skip what you wrote after, which I think is your "darling" that you don't want to delete. We all have them. 

The last words written would be this, as the mono-line:

"and, who are you?"

Despite all my interjections, I liked it. Sas


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## ned (Jan 6, 2018)

hello Sas - thank you for your considered reply -

your revision of the first verse mentions I twice - so, I'm not sure what your point is.
my aim is to highlight the narrator's limitations.

yet......I may have symptoms *but nevertheless*...........a change of focus.

'with my mind' is impersonal?

ok - I have restored the question to the final line - where I prefer it.

the question asked cannot hang on its own - especially if left to the last line, can you see that?
my 'darling' verse is merely the setup - which is required.

thank you Squalid, for the 'solid' (can't help myself)..............Ned


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## sas (Jan 6, 2018)

Ned,

My point on first stanza use of "I" was to not begin the poem with it. It is a pedestrian way to begin a confessional poem. I felt you could keep the use of "I" and, at the same time, make the double use of "only" stronger. 

You are an intellectual type, smiles, so I guess you see "mind" as personal. Off the top of my head, something along these lines might bring the personal connection:

"with our life"
(plus your/our is gained"

Hope helpful, if not it was a good dialogue to exchange differences between poets. There are no rules in poetry. These are just mine. Best. Sas


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## ned (Jan 6, 2018)

hello Sas - thank you for the feedback - but this poem certainly ain't a confessional
and there is nothing pedestrian about starting with 'I' - where did you get that idea?

you cannot ask a poet to chop up their poem on a personal whim - 
what would Wordsworth say?

intellectual? LOL.......thanks for that Sas..........Ned


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## sas (Jan 6, 2018)

Look up Confessional Poetry. It is not about confessing, although it can be. It is a poem from the "I" perspective. The pronoun "I" is preeminent, and all revolves around the poet. 

I used "pedestrian" due to the fact that so many, many poets start with "I". I have and do, too, but try not to. Guess I thought you might be open to considering a different way. All workshop comments are from a personal perspective. I wouldn't call any a whim. Mine aren't.


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## Squalid Glass (Jan 6, 2018)

Personally, I don’t have an issue with repetitive “I” or a number of them. Just my two cents.


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## ned (Jan 6, 2018)

hello Sas - whoops! I seemed to have started another controversy!

I don't like the term 'confessional poetry' - (maybe it's my Catholic upbringing)
I know what it means in my mind - an outpouring of truthful and honest inner thoughts in the first person.
when Wordsworth described what he saw on a country walk was that really a 'confessional'?
maybe so, technically - so how does one differentiate the one from the other? 

I don't know how many poems I have started with 'I' - never considered it.
but if I were a totally confessional poet, I can see it might be an issue....
since I'm not, advice to avoid the term comes across as bogus and not pertaining to this case.
like saying, starting a poem with 'The' or 'A' is pedestrian.
I always appreciate your input Sas - but all our advice is often skewed from our own work, perhaps.

what else?

yes Squalid - I have no problem with two 'I' s - or two cents or tuppence.

cheers..........Ned


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## sas (Jan 6, 2018)

It wasn't the use of "I" repetitively that I thought should be reconsidered. Confessional poems do that by their very nature. Afterall, it is all about the "I" when the poet is the subject.  It was the first word being "I" that I thought might be reconsidered, as in "it's been there, done there" an inordinate number of times. I was merely trying to put a new face on an old beginning.

Ok. I'll stop. The poem is not mine to change, nor do I want to. I simply wanted to introduce something else.


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## ned (Jan 6, 2018)

hello Sas - I see what you mean.

it is not my usual sort of thing, so I am not focused on all the vagaries of the 'confessional', I guess.
more on expressing the message - I am the narrator, this is how I feel...

But I hope it goes with the simplistic voice perhaps, in this case. uncontrived.
how can I put it? - one will bear it in mind.

when you get to the second letter, give us a shout.....8)........Ned


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## sas (Jan 6, 2018)

By the very fact that almost all of my poems are autobiographical, for my grandchildren to one day read, I war with the word "I" often. I don't like using it, but, of course, do. And, I especially wrestle not to use it throughout a poem. I've come to see that word, as if from a satellite, looking down: I.   From that vantage, it looks like a barrier (right from the beginning, if it is the first word) that could block the reader from immersing themselves in was told, or, identifying with it, as it's about me, me, me. Odd perhaps, I know.


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## Robbie (Jan 6, 2018)

Certainly understand that Sas. My mother used to discourage the use of ‘I’ in letters or poetry especially in first sentences. Am still conscious of that today and try to avoid it but it’s made me very “self” conscious in a way that is almost uncomfortable because she meant it to be the opposite — to put others or something else first.


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## Squalid Glass (Jan 6, 2018)

I mean I see where you two are coming from, but I just don’t see it. It’s a basic perspective thing in both poetry and prose. I suppose some people also have an issue with “you” in poetry, but I don’t see an issue with any perspective so long as it’s warrented.


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## sas (Jan 6, 2018)

Never would I suggest not using "I", but it is the easiest and most frequent word overused. I know the use of it can be wrestled to the ground after some effort; few want to put in the effort. I've no idea why. Occasionally, it takes me to the mat and I have to concede the match, but I try not to pepper a poem with it first. Damn boring word.


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## Squalid Glass (Jan 6, 2018)

Haha I’d say “the” is more of a weak and overused word than “I”.


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## sas (Jan 6, 2018)

Ha! Don't like that one either, but even I've relaxed on it, as I've moved to more anecdotal poems, due to subject matter. But, "I" is not skimmed over, it is intrusive by nature. It has meaning, whereas "the" does not.


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## ArianSpirit (Jan 9, 2018)

Hi ned, 
I really like your style. Please do not take my suggestions below as anything other than a suggestion to tighten up this poem. () means drop the word ** mean add $$ mean dive deep for another wording "" just comment to pull it all together. I love succinct, tight poems.  

I (can) only grasp
(in) snatches *;*
(can) only follow
a circular path

(where) all I feel
is the icy ground beneath
my feet
slipping away

my clouded eyes
cannot connect
(with) your image
with*in* my mind

yet I am here $where$ inside
alone, unafraid
oblivious
undismayed

I do not know $where$ “may make this stronger”
therefore you don't know
what to do

when I commute
a life sentence

'who are you?'


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## ned (Jan 10, 2018)

hello Arian, welcome to the perfectly pedantic poetry thread.
and I thank you for your considered feedback.

this poem is not my usual style - and it doesn't really use poetical devices
 - other than the voice and the message.

but your rewrite undermines these aspects.
I can only grasp - implies helplessness, vulnerability.
I only grasp - implies choice

the voice is plain, innocent and uncontrived.
hopefully, the message is clear enough.

why lose these things just to 'tighten up' ?

sure, plenty of poems could with some trimming - but it shouldn't be the default position on all poetry -
automatically assumed with scant justification.

I'm glad you like my style and I appreciate the encouragement.

keep scratchin'..........Ned


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## ArianSpirit (Jan 12, 2018)

Hi Ned, sorry I didn't see in the original thread where I had responded as did you. I see where you stated this is not your usual style. I did not mean to undermine you in any way. So you can take or leave anything at any time from me. So that being said you can take or leave my input below. 


A couple of word changes just putting my two cents. For what it is worth feel free to take or leave.  enjoyed!

I can only grasp (invision, see?)
in snatches (snippits?) *Like you are trying to remember partial parts of something but don’t get a full on view*
can only follow
a circular path


my clouded eyes
cannot connect
with your image (remove with?)
with my mind (within?)


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## ned (Jan 13, 2018)

Hello Arian - no, you're not undermining my work at all - I'm happy to receive critique, and it's good to see you are getting involved.
If I disagree with any critique, I try to give my reasons why.



ArianSpirit said:


> I can only grasp (invision, see?)
> in snatches (snippits?) *Like you are trying to remember partial parts of something but don’t get a full on view*
> can only follow
> a circular path
> ...



basically, you want to ditch the poetry for prose, as I read it - with no reason given....

to be honest, I'm more interested in how the mood and meaning came across.

cheers..........Ned


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## jenthepen (Jan 13, 2018)

I'm never sure exactly what you have in mind when you write a poem, Ned but I always pick up a mood and a message - not necessarily yours but does that matter? Not to me.

With this one, I get the feeling of visiting a close relative in a Home or a hospital. Someone with dementia or out-of-it on drugs. The sadness and despair of the separation comes across and the question at the end speaks to me of losing something of oneself when death finally ends the suffering. 

As I say, possibly worlds away from your intended mood and message but it had a powerful impact in my little world. Thanks for giving me so much to consider.

jen


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## dannyboy (Jan 13, 2018)

my only question on this ned is why unafraid? I get the sense of trapped (almost claustrophobically so) and of a helplessness - and the title implies prison or in a hospital (s0 things are not going well?) - so the word really threw me.


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## ArianSpirit (Jan 13, 2018)

"basically, you want to ditch the poetry for prose, as I read it - with no reason given....

to be honest, I'm more interested in how the mood and meaning came across."

Ned, I am not trying make you ditch anything. It is your work and I have no say so as to whether you take or leave any suggestion. 

As for what you asked for? The mood and meaning? This seems to be something personal, the mood is I don't know you anymore and I don't care but, yet possibly I do..an inner struggle and a hard look into life itself.

All respect,
Arian


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## ned (Jan 14, 2018)

hello - thank you all for commenting. Just figured out the multi-quote function!



dannyboy said:


> my only question on this ned is why unafraid? I get the sense of trapped (almost claustrophobically so) and of a helplessness - and the title implies prison or in a hospital (s0 things are not going well?) - so the word really threw me.



yes, I threw 'unafraid' in there to give the reader pause and give more depth to the narrator's state of mind.
sure, 'things are not going well' - but unafraid is no contradiction to that - and a small clue that the narrator is unaware of their own condition.
my only question for you Danny - since you took the trouble to comment, what did you think of the poem?



ArianSpirit said:


> Ned, I am not trying make you ditch anything. It is your work and I have no say so as to whether you take or leave any suggestion.



yes Arian, that's all understood, so there's no need to walk around on eggshells.
we are all here to try and help each other's poetry and to give encouragement -
but when you make suggestions of changes to another's poem - then some sort of justification is more helpful and clarifies your point.

appreciate the feedback J the P - poetically speaking, the message seems plain enough.

cheers.......Ned


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## dannyboy (Jan 14, 2018)

Having placed my mother and mother-in-law both in care last year due to deteriorating mental/physical states (both very old, advanced stages of alzheimers) this poem hit a nerve with me (in a good way) because I felt it was giving voice to their states - except (which is why I asked) both do experience fear, groundless, unknowable fear because they have no short term memories to ground themselves so reality and nightmares are intermingled. 

As usual its a strong poem from you ned.


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## ned (Jan 16, 2018)

thank you Danny - sorry to hear about your relations, no doubt, the condition effects different people in different ways -
I can only speak from my experience......Ned


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## dannyboy (Jan 16, 2018)

yes, just wanted to explain why I asked.


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## TL Murphy (Jan 16, 2018)

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## RHPeat (Jan 16, 2018)

Tim
Any poem's voice can certainly make or break the poem, while clarity offers flow of content as music.


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## TL Murphy (Jan 16, 2018)

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## ned (Jan 16, 2018)

hello - thank you TL for taking the trouble to rewrite my poem - as I read it, every aspect seems to be weaker.

this poem has to be in first-person, not to draw sympathy, but to put the reader in with the visitor.
where the real emotion lies, hopefully..................Ned


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## TL Murphy (Jan 16, 2018)

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## miraj (Jan 17, 2018)

This reminds me of a poem I have written recently.Same Subject.


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## ned (Jan 18, 2018)

TL Murphy said:


> Glad I could help.



shouldn't that be "Glad could help" ? 

if you want to try an exercise - I'm sure there is a local gym available...

hello Miraj - welcome to the pedantic poetry forum -

when taking the trouble to comment, you might as well say something relevant.

perplexed as ever............Ned


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## Neetu (Feb 23, 2018)

This is truly masterful, Ned. I have not read your poetry before because I guess I just don’t  come around to this group, but this makes me want to read more! Beautiful.


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