# Perjury in an Involuntary Manslaughter Case



## J Anfinson (Apr 20, 2013)

Trying to figure out what the average sentence would be for a minor (character is about 10 years old) who commits involuntary manslaughter and lies to try and convince people he wasn't at the scene. I've found that involuntary manslaughter is anywhere from 1-5 years on average, and perjury can carry up to 5 years on average, but I'm wondering if it would carry a seperate charge or if lying during a manslaughter case carries its own charge, vs general perjury.

This relates to United States law, btw.

Anyone knowledgeable in this area, I'd like to hear from you. Or if anyone has ever heard of a similar real event, I'd love to hear what the charges were.


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## Bloggsworth (Apr 20, 2013)

What is the age of criminal responsibility in the US?


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## J Anfinson (Apr 20, 2013)

Usually 18, but minors can still be tried as adults in serious crimes.


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## Rustgold (Apr 20, 2013)

There are many factors outside the actual crime which will determine what a person is sentenced to.  What makes one paedophile get a mere community service order, and another get 10 years; both first timers in court, both similar offences against multiple victims?

Presentation.  How is the offender presented to the court.  What people are speaking to defend the offender?  Is the offender 'seen' as a 'good person' to the court.  These things (or the absence of) contribute to 90% of the sentence.
Another 30% is down the the judge's general attitude.  Yes, this makes it over 100%, but the point is you simply can't determine a sentence in our system with any real degree of accuracy (beyond your general sentencing range) based on the actual crime.


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## J Anfinson (Apr 20, 2013)

So do you think it wouldn't be unheard of to sentence him to a juvenile detention facility until he's 18? I know some people (and kids) get a slap on the wrist, but I'd like the sentence to be a reasonable one in most peoples eyes.

To further elaborate on what he's done, he was being a bully and stole something from a little girl. They're standing by a pond in the winter time and the pond is froze over. He throws the item out onto the ice, and when the girl goes out to get it she falls through. He runs home and tries to say he was never there.


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## Lewdog (Apr 20, 2013)

J Anfinson said:


> So do you think it wouldn't be unheard of to sentence him to a juvenile detention facility until he's 18? I know some people (and kids) get a slap on the wrist, but I'd like the sentence to be a reasonable one in most peoples eyes.
> 
> To further elaborate on what he's done, he was being a bully and stole something from a little girl. They're standing by a pond in the winter time and the pond is froze over. He throws the item out onto the ice, and when the girl goes out to get it she falls through. He runs home and tries to say he was never there.



Well unless tried as an adult, more than likely a 10 year old would be sentenced to a juvenile facility until 18.


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## J Anfinson (Apr 20, 2013)

That's just it, I wonder if in a scenerio like this a kid would be charged as an adult. I would think it would be pretty serious to lie about that. And at 10 I would have known better than to bully someone onto ice. Then again, I had the benefit of falling through once, close to the shore mind you, but I sure learned why its deadly.


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## Bloggsworth (Apr 20, 2013)

There's involutary manslaughter and involutary manslaughter - Context is all. If two kids are playing basketball, and to prevent one scoring, the other trips him up and the boy falls awkwardly and breaks his neck, then in US law that may be involutary manslaughter. In another case, a kid is playing with his father's gun, and shoots his friend; I believe that, in America, this is known as self defence... Or to put it another way, the law can be an ass, and different courts will treat both cases of involuntary manslaughter entirely differently according to the social status, race etc. Clearly the first illustration is the lesser "offence", if offence it is; the second, as any child would know the purpose of a gun, is the greater "offence"; but as we know, common-sense, fairness and justice, occassionally, seem to be notable by their absence in the US justice system - If you are rich it seems that you can get away with murder, if you are black you can, apparently, resist arrest while unconscious...


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## Kevin (Apr 20, 2013)

I know of a case where it was vehicular manslaughter. A bunch of 14-year-olds and one got out of the car and was struck. The driver had no 'priors'. She did no time but performed about a million hours(took over a year I think) of community service and was on probation. There was nothing malicious but it was very serious; her friend had died. I'm sure the judge took her demeanor and prior history into account. 

I know of a 16-year-old who was convicted of 2nd degree murder. At 18 he was retried as an adult and sentenced to life (but not without parole) He's probably out by now if he's still alive or hasn't done something else.


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## J Anfinson (Apr 20, 2013)

Bloggsworth said:


> In another case, a kid is playing with his father's gun, and shoots his friend; I believe that, in America, this is known as self defence... ; the second, as any child would know the purpose of a gun, is the greater "offence"; but as we know, common-sense, fairness and justice, occassionally, seem to be notable by their absence in the US justice system



Self defense? Not in my neck of the woods. I've heard of cases like that, and the parent that owns the gun is charged with (criminal? I believe)negligence for starters. I'm not sure what happens to the kid, although I'm sure juvenile detention is common. But yes, parents that own guns should be teaching their kids not to touch them, and hopefully they have them secured so that their kid can't get hold of it anyway.

I do see your general point though. Sometimes a judge or jury can make head scratching judgements, and sometimes I trust in karma more than the courts.


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## shadowwalker (Apr 20, 2013)

IANAL, but your scenario makes me wonder if the kid would be charged at all, let alone for involuntary manslaughter. He basically did nothing more than a lot of kids do - grabbed something from another kid and tossed it away, and a ten-year-old would not be expected to risk his life to try and save another child. Now, the fact that he didn't go for help might get him charged with something, but again, talking about a ten-year-old, the courts would look at what is reasonable behavior for someone that age. Frankly, I'm thinking the court would move him into foster care and/or counseling rather than a juvenile facility.


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## J Anfinson (Apr 20, 2013)

I'm not sure if he would be charged with that either, but going by the definition I think it's a possiblity.

_Involuntary manslaughter_ is the unlawful killing of a human being without _malice aforethought_, either express or implied. It is distinguished from voluntary manslaughter by the absence of intention. It is normally divided into two categories; constructive manslaughter and criminally negligent manslaughter, both of which involve criminal liability


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## Nickleby (Apr 20, 2013)

J Anfinson said:


> Trying to figure out what the average sentence would be for a minor (character is about 10 years old) who commits involuntary manslaughter and lies to try and convince people he wasn't at the scene. I've found that involuntary manslaughter is anywhere from 1-5 years on average, and perjury can carry up to 5 years on average, but I'm wondering if it would carry a seperate charge or if lying during a manslaughter case carries its own charge, vs general perjury.



Someone under 18 would be tried in juvenile court, assuming there's a crime here at all. This case doesn't come close to the level of depraved indifference that might land the boy in criminal court. He couldn't have known the ice would break. He didn't have a legal responsibility to try to rescue her at the risk of his own life. The only thing he may have done wrong was not reporting the incident.

Perjury is lying _under oath_. The boy lied about being at the scene, but not under oath. Simple lying is not a crime.

Depending on what you're trying to do here, you could change the circumstances. If the character will feel responsible for the girl's death _and_ spend years in prison, have him throw or push her out onto the pond. If he's not directly responsible but still criminally liable, show that he knows the ice is thin before he sends the girl out onto it. If he's not responsible at all but still goes to prison, he leaves just before the accident. In any case you need a witness to the incident, because there's no other evidence; in the last suggestion, the witness lies.


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## Rustgold (Apr 20, 2013)

Bloggsworth said:


> If you are rich it seems that you can get away with murder, if you are black you can, apparently, resist arrest while unconscious...


Or in Australia, if you're a pack of 6 to 8 blacks (or Muslims), you can rape girl from aged 8, and the judge will blame the girl for encouraging the behaviour (and I can provide news links - not conspiracy trash).
Edit : http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...raldsun/comments/column_dark_side_of_justice/

Or it could just be that some judges are plain out piles of garbage who shouldn't be in their positions; and not a race/class conspiracy at all.

On topic 


J Anfinson said:


> That's just it, I wonder if in a scenerio like this a kid would be charged as an adult. I would think it would be pretty serious to lie about that. And at 10 I would have known better than to bully someone onto ice. Then again, I had the benefit of falling through once, close to the shore mind you, but I sure learned why its deadly.


On its own unlikely.  But this is a situation where the pictures presented by the prosecution & defence will determine how the kid is viewed; and this will determine what happens.  There's so much leeway here, you can paint any picture and conclusion and it won't be wrong.


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## Lewdog (Apr 20, 2013)

Nickleby said:


> Someone under 18 would be tried in juvenile court, assuming there's a crime here at all. This case doesn't come close to the level of depraved indifference that might land the boy in criminal court. He couldn't have known the ice would break. He didn't have a legal responsibility to try to rescue her at the risk of his own life. The only thing he may have done wrong was not reporting the incident.
> 
> Perjury is lying _under oath_. The boy lied about being at the scene, but not under oath. Simple lying is not a crime.
> 
> Depending on what you're trying to do here, you could change the circumstances. If the character will feel responsible for the girl's death _and_ spend years in prison, have him throw or push her out onto the pond. If he's not directly responsible but still criminally liable, show that he knows the ice is thin before he sends the girl out onto it. If he's not responsible at all but still goes to prison, he leaves just before the accident. In any case you need a witness to the incident, because there's no other evidence; in the last suggestion, the witness lies.



The bully could be charged with providing false information to a law enforcement official, similar to what Casey Anthony was charged with.


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## J Anfinson (Apr 20, 2013)

You guys are definetly giving me lots to think about. Thank you for that.


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## Panthera Onca (Apr 27, 2013)

For the perjury, did the character tell his parents or guardian what happened and they told him to lie or did he just lie of his own accord? Someone like a parent telling a child to lie to the cops would probably bee seen as a mitigating factor in the sentence (if any) the character receives. Also does your charter have any mental deficiency that might give him the mindset of a far younger child? I read one my old textbooks(from about 2002) and saw that six is the (general) age of know right from wrong so if your character has a mental age of say, 3, he might not be charged with anything.


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## J Anfinson (Apr 28, 2013)

I think I'm going to just change the circumstances so that he flat out kills her. It'll make the plot darker, but it intrigues me where that will end up.


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## claritystory (Apr 28, 2013)

Yes, a murder would help shape a character and provide interesting circumstances afterwards.


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## AtlanshiaSpirit (Jun 10, 2013)

As for the lying about it, I think that wold come under "perverting the course of justice" it does in the UK anyway. Not sure how it works if the actual criminal lied about it though. *confused face*


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