# Poetry Tips & Advice Thread



## eleutheromaniac (Sep 17, 2004)

On villanelles:


Iambic Pentameter:

http://www.pmb.net/poetry/auden.html

http://www.wells.edu/whatsnew/spilled.htm

http://damon.typepad.com/hollow/200...nelle_for_.html

http://www.geocities.com/emilylloyd.geo/hacker2.html

http://www.unf.edu/~lrose/villanelle.htm

http://www.geocities.com/emilylloyd.geo/disch1.html

http://www.geocities.com/emilylloyd.geo/empson2.html


Iambic Tetrameter:

http://eir.library.utoronto.ca/rpo/...y/poem1738.html

http://www.bartleby.com/143/37.html


Terzanelle:

http://www.mochinet.com/Writing/CB/SeriesIII-VolI-SteppingStones.pdf

http://www.angelfire.com/art/formsofpoetry/agamemmnon's.sanctuary.frenchforms.terzanelle.html

http://members.aol.com/poetrynet/month/archive/jackson/kosovo.html

http://www.gryphonsmith.com/fileg/verse/Terzanelle.html

http://www.ourkarnataka.com/Poetry/aparna_terzanelle.htm


Non-metrical villanelle and terzanelle (although the Dylan Thomas example provided is written with iambic pentametre, as are most villanelles):

http://www.uni.edu/~gotera/CraftOfPoetry/villanelle.html

And conversely, my villanelle written in free verse.What's the difference?

Advice and tips on poetry in general.

Any more tips?  Bring 'em!


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## eleutheromaniac (Sep 18, 2004)

On Haiku (courtesy of Die Daily):

http://www.xasa.com/wiki/en/wikipedia/h/ha/haiku.html

http://www.ahapoetry.com/haiku.htm 

http://www.toyomasu.com/haiku/#whatishaiku 

http://www.big.or.jp/~loupe/links/ehisto/ehisinx.shtml 

http://www.worldhaikureview.org/2-1/worldmap.shtml 

http://www.iyume.com/metrics/haikumet.html 

http://www.lsi.usp.br/usp/rod/poet/hai_rime.html 

http://www.hsa-haiku.org/ 

http://www.nhi.clara.net/gepm002.htm

On tanka:

http://www.ahapoetry.com/tanka.htm

http://home1.pacific.net.sg/~loudon/rick.htm

http://www.americantanka.com/about.html

On senryu:

http://www.fact-index.com/s/se/senryu.html

http://members.optushome.com.au/kazoom/poetry/senryu.html

Literary Terms:

http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/lit_terms/


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## eleutheromaniac (Sep 18, 2004)

On terza rima:

http://www.public.asu.edu/~aarios/formsofverse/reports2000/page4.html

http://www.emory.edu/ENGLISH/classes/Handbook/terzarima.html

http://98.1911encyclopedia.org/T/TE/TERZA_RIMA.htm


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## rashadow (Sep 18, 2004)

ABECEDARIAN
http://www.spinelessbooks.com/table/forms/abecedarian.html
http://www.agonia.net/index.php/article/59198/
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Square/1521/scrAbecedarian.html

ACROSTIC
http://www.emory.edu/ENGLISH/classes/Handbook/acrostic.html
http://www.manassas.k12.va.us/round/ClassWeb/Slough/Poetry/acrostic.htm
http://www.babincentral.com/7english/acrostic_poetry.htm
http://www.edu.pe.ca/stjean/playing with poetry/Hickey/acrostic.htm
I love writing these for women


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## eleutheromaniac (Sep 19, 2004)

More on metre:

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Meter%20(poetry)
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Meter_(poetry)

Standard Substitutions in Strict Iambic Pentameter

http://nv.essortment.com/metricalfoot_rxjm.htm

http://litera1no4.tripod.com/meter_frame.html

http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/forms.html

http://www.geocities.com/blondelibrarian/literaryexplorer/meter.html

http://www.richmond.edu/~egruner/english203/poetry.html

http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Terms/meter.html

http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/minis/mini/poemMINI/poemMINI2.html

As it says in the last link, metre isn't the emphasis in poetry as it once was, but I think it's still something every serious poet should make an attempt to learn and utilise.  Ultimately, it's up to the poet to decide if a poem should be written in free verse or formal verse; and it's up to the reader to decide if a poem written in free verse is as valid as one with a normative metre.  For those interested in learning to read and write metrical verse, this book was recommended to me.

Scansion:

http://www.stedwards.edu/hum/klawitter/poetics/scansion.html

http://suberic.net/~marc/scansion.html

http://server.riverdale.k12.or.us/~bblack/meter.html

http://www.arches.uga.edu/~narcisse/webwrite/project/scandef.htm


General Info on poetry.  If you scroll down there's a list of most of the various forms of poetry, with links to descriptions about each.  And more tips, including the definations of blank verse and free verse.


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## eleutheromaniac (Sep 20, 2004)

I look forward to seeing what you find on sonics, most of this is entirely new ground for me.   As for the sticky, we can only hope.  (Nae? Bea?  I thought I had some friends in high places?)


Rhythm and stress.


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## eleutheromaniac (Oct 1, 2004)

Rhyming pitfalls:

Bad rhymes:  words which only faintly rhyme with one another, or have to be mispronounced in order to rhyme (eg squabble/babel).  Don't be too proud to consult a rhyming dictionary if you're not sure.  (Note:  Some would call these half rhymes, oblique rhymes, slant rhymes, near rhymes or off rhymes, and don't necessarily consider them a bad thing in poetry; I'm not one of these people, but given a choice, bad rhyme is always prefered to forced rhyme.)

Simple rhymes:  Words that have been rhymed with one another countless times; usually the first rhyming word that comes to mind (eg when you hear cat you probably think hat, or bat, or fat).  They are usually monosyllabic words with little if any emotional or intellectual connotation.  Villanelles and children's poems are a little more forgiving in this respect (but that depends on the critic  :wink: ).

Forced rhymes:  This is basically when the poet has elected to sacrifice the content and/or the continuity of the poem in a line (or lines) just so that it will fit the rhyme scheme.  Never use rhymes as an excuse for bad writing.  Check this out for more info.

If anyone has some advice on how to avoid these pitfalls, let's hear 'em.

Glossary of rhymes.


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## Ilan Bouchard (Dec 23, 2004)

eleutheromaniac said:
			
		

> Rhyming pitfalls:
> 
> Bad rhymes:  words which only faintly rhyme with one another, or have to be mispronounced in order to rhyme (eg squabble/babel).  Don't be too proud to consult a rhyming dictionary if you're not sure.  (Note:  Some would call these half rhymes, oblique rhymes, slant rhymes, near rhymes or off rhymes, and don't necessarily consider them a bad thing in poetry; I'm not one of these people, but given a choice, bad rhyme is always prefered to forced rhyme.)
> 
> ...



When writing sonnets I come across this many times.  Simple rhymes are acceptable when the rest of the line is poetic, although it usually isn't as interesting.  What I usually do is look in a rhyming dictionary, online or in a book (www.rhymezone.com is a great website for this) and look for words that relate to the subject of the poem.  If I can't find any words, I'll look for synonyms of the word I'm trying to rhyme and may replace it with one of those.  And if worst comes to worst, I'll change the line so the last word is more rhyme-friendly.  Speaking of which, "love" is a word that doesn't _really_ rhyme with anything, and has few synonyms that fit well.  And yet, that's one of the most common themes in poetry.  'Tisn't fair.

eleutheromaniac, this is the kind of work that made you worthy of being a Mentor.  Thanks.[/url]


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## Jp (Jan 19, 2005)

A, "Triplet" or triolet is a French verse form of poem, or single stanza. They consist of eight lines that include two rhymes and two refrains.

The first refrain is the repetition of the 1st line at the 4th and the 7th line. 
There are three lines that are the same. When in poem form this type of poem breaks stanzas on each of the first refrains, thus the, "Tri" name.

The second refrain is the repetition of the 2nd line at the 8th line.

Some modern forms of this poem are often used to express humor, while the first French form was essentially spiritual.

Form. 

* Eight lines 
* Two rhymes
* Five of the 8 lines are repeated or refrain lines.
* The first line repeats at the 4th and 7th lines.
* The second line repeats at the 8th line.
* Repeat rhyme 1, 4, and 7
* Repeat rhyme 2, and 8
* Don't Rhyme 1,4, and 7 to lines 2, and 8

EXAMPLE:

Insipid Dream - (Triplet)

Its a namby-pamby fallacy 
Delusions of so many things  
Including a belief: freedoms free

Its a namby-pamby fallacy
Persuading men with a flag  
To pursue peace with a gun

Its a namby-pamby fallacy
Delusions of so many things


NOW go write one...


Jp


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## journyman161 (May 28, 2005)

I'm bloody glad I don't need to 'know' all this before I can start writing, but I reckon I'll be referring back regularly as I clear enough brain storage to take in the next chunk.


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## mswietek (Jul 5, 2005)

*Angst, Despair, and Suicide Poetry*

Also posted in the poetry forum....put here at the advice of another poster.

I have been reading a lot of poems lately which focus on either despair, angst, or suicide (or some combination thereof) on the various forum boards I inhabit. I have come to some conclusions about them and thought it worth sharing. I always hesitated to put these thoughts under any one person’s poem as I thought it would be overkill and be seen as an attack on that particular poet. Now I am not claiming to be a poetry expert (of any kind), but I hope people will find some of this useful. So slip into your black turtleneck and lets get started!

Remember, You Have An Audience
All poetry has an audience, even if the audience is only you. Chances are, though, if you are submitting such poetry on forums and to friends, you want it to be read more widely. But most angst poetry is not considerate of its audience. When many people talk about their poetry, they talk about what inspired them; why they wrote it. While this is fine, the poet needs to also keep in mind why someone would read it. Some examples might be:

1) You want to evoke a similar feeling of despair, etc. in the reader.
2) You want the reader to empathize with the narrator
3) You want the reader to compare the narrator’s experiences with their to see that their lives aren’t so bad after all.

These are only three of many possibilities, but you get the point. Poems that are self-absorbed and wallow in their own pool of angst alienate readers. So check your motives. Are you writing the poem because you’ve got something to say, or are you writing because you have something you think others should hear? If it’s the latter, then good. If it’s the former, then what you may have is a nice piece of therapeutic poetry meant only for yourself.

You Readers Don’t Give a Crap About Despair
Truth is, almost no reader cares about angst or despair or fear. Nor do they care about love or joy. What they care about, are situations and characters which evoke these feelings in them. One of the most glaring issues of angst poetry, is that is often deals only in abstractions. Details are the life’s blood of all writing, and angst poetry is no exception. Using lines like “dark oblivion”, “empty soul in hell” actually does very little to create a feeling of angst. What it does, instead, is evoke a feeling that “This is supposed to be angst” which is very, very different.

Make sure your poem is more than just a collection of “angsty” phrases. Give us the situation. Tell us why the narrator feels this way.

Tulips Are An Angst Poem’s Best Friend
Imagine a picture of a perfectly black sheet. While it may be very dark, its also featureless. And boring. Now think back on much of the angst poetry you have read (and perhaps written). How much of it was one sentence about depression after another? Poems like these tend to just grumble along.

Now imagine that same picture with a tulip petal laying in the center. The contrast of the petal against the black will draw a lot of attention to it, making it stand out. It also reinforces the darkness around it. Its possible your angst poem could use a tulip petal or two. Here’s some ideas of how to do it...

1) A contrasting image (a light or happy one) to create a contrast with the despair
2) Thoughts of happier times.
3) Humor (dry or gallows) can work wonders.
4) A narrator with a sense of irony
5) A narrator who is self aware without being self absorbed.


I hope some people found this useful.

Michael


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## leliathomas (Aug 25, 2005)

While I'll _occasionally_ venture into a certain form of poetry, I'd like to point out to everyone that those forms didn't come into existence from writers following the ideas and formulas of other writers.


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## mammamaia (Aug 28, 2005)

well, i'm a full time poet, lelia, and i heartily agree with you!... excellent point made... and one that needed to be added, imo...

i've never consulted any list of 'forms' or consciously emulated any 'formula' when writing my own work...  and you probably can't find any two of my poems that are matching in form... yet, it's all poetry... and fairly good poetry, at that, if all the feedback i get can be believed...

thanks for injecting a bit of practical wisdom into the mix...

love and hugs, maia


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## daisy (Oct 20, 2005)

I totally agree with you, trying to define poetry as being one thing and not another is not only a dubious undertaking, it's almost impossible.  With works ranging from sonnets to prose poems all being defined as "poetry," there's really no form that a writer has to adhere to in order to have their work considered poetry.  For me personally though, I find it fun and interesting to learn as many forms as I can just to have those tools in my toolbelt, whether or not I choose to use them.


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## ghent96 (Apr 27, 2006)

If it's prose... it's not poetry.  Very simple.

Forms, rhythm, metre, structure, rhyme... off, slant, male, female or pure... this IS poetry.  That's what poetry IS.

Don't be "afraid" to stick things into a form, to the same degree you shouldn't be afraid to experiment and come up with new forms.

I've heard too many people say over and over "break out of the form", cut loose, etc.  Then they read something they wrote, and they're just talking.  It's not poetry, it's not powerful, it is just talking.  It's just prose, arranged.  If you can take a poem, and turn 20 seperate lines into a paragraph just by hitting backspace/delete, then maybe this is not a poem?  A good start, maybe, a rough draft, but with revisions & rewrites required.

The form is part of what makes poetry, and it can be very powerful.  Thanks for this thread, highlighting information about a few of the multitude of forms.


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## FrankBlissett (Apr 27, 2006)

> If it's prose... it's not poetry.  Very simple.
> 
> Forms, rhythm, metre, structure, rhyme... off, slant, male, female or pure... this IS poetry.  That's what poetry IS.
> ...
> If you can take a poem, and turn 20 seperate lines into a paragraph just by hitting backspace/delete, then maybe this is not a poem?



While I agree on the example you gave, I have to disagree on the generallity.

Let me give a similar example. If you give a work to 100 people and 50 call it prose, pointing out how it's prose - and another 50 call it a poem, pointing to some poetic techniques - what do you call it?

Given, a 50/50 split like that will be rare, but what about a 67/33 split? Are you willing to say that a work with some alliteration and rhyme, and a strong rhythm, but is none-the-less considered prose by most people is not poetic?

To me, there are many poetic tools. The more they are used in the work, the more poetic it is. But there isn't some magic threshold that we cross over - ie "one more rhyme and it would be a poem, but right now it's prose", "with the addition of that word 60% of your work is now in Iambic meter, so it's no longer prose - it's poetry."

-Frank


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