# A question about Royalties and Bulk Orders



## Katie GlassSlipper (Jul 15, 2014)

I need input. 

Is it normal for my small press publisher to require me to pay them royalties on the books that I buy directly from them for give-away/resale? 

Like, I placed a bulk order from them so that I could go around to local book stores and libraries and plug my novel.

They charged me their half of the royalties for those books. In addition to what the distributor charged me. 

Normal or no?


----------



## dale (Jul 15, 2014)

hold on...explain that again. did the publisher charge you HIS wholesale price? like what it costs for the books to be printed?
like when i had a book-signing, the publisher sold me 10 books for exactly what they cost to be printed. it was like $3 and some change apiece.
i sold them over double that and pocketed the profit. is the publisher charging you part of the profit? or just the cost of production? who is your publisher, btw. that should solve the issue real quick.


----------



## Katie GlassSlipper (Jul 15, 2014)

Thanks for replying. 

The publisher SAID it was their wholesale price. However, it was high compared to what I am seeing other places. And then, on top of that, the publisher has tacked on their split of the royalties. 

As in: wholesale cost + royalties to publisher = what I paid per each book. 

These are for the copies I am giving away/selling myself (book signings and the like). 

I don't want to name the publisher right now, I'm having a few issues with them and I'm trying to very quietly figure out what I need to do.


----------



## Greimour (Jul 15, 2014)

Depending on the publisher things are different, but the _normal_ thing would be that the publisher gives you 10-50 books at a printing cost only. 

Sounds to me like they are charging you half of the royalties you should get for each book in exchange for them giving you a copy at printing/manufacturing costs. 

For example, if your book cost $3 to make, they sell for $9 and give you $1.50, then your royalties would be 1/4 of the profit. But if they then sell you the book at $3.75, they aren't making any profit so are charging you 50% of your royalties as compensation for their losses. Which is not normal - considering book signings and such are marketing strategies which can essentially increase sales. Which is what they want to begin with. If you were a high class well-known author, they'd be giving you the books for free and telling you to get out there and get signing.

To recoup your losses, you could do a sell & sign instead of a normal book signing. Where you sell the books for 50% off and you sign it in front of them. So you would then sell same book for $4.50 and in that case you would still earn your normal $1.50 royalties. Really, you would only be earning 75c, not $1.50, but in that scenario, you would literally be halving the royalties with the publisher in a compensation scheme type scenario.

They do normally charge for books, the cost to make them minimum - because it stops authors from giving them away willy-nilly.

That's the understanding I have reached so far.


~Kev.


----------



## dale (Jul 15, 2014)

Katie GlassSlipper said:


> Thanks for replying.
> 
> The publisher SAID it was their wholesale price. However, it was high compared to what I am seeing other places. And then, on top of that, the publisher has tacked on their split of the royalties.
> 
> ...



oh. i understand. inbox me, if you want. there are a lot of con publishers out there. i'm the type that obsesses over that sometimes. 
i'll show you how to look at your publishers record on screwing people over, if you like.


----------



## Greimour (Jul 15, 2014)

I think you should take Dale up on his offer in the above comment. You wouldn't be this forums first member to have encountered a con-publisher or a publisher that reaps the rewards without helping the author. Publishers should help the author sell the book, that's where a mutually beneficial relationship would be. But many of these backward, cheap companies simply look out for number one. They charge the writers money to make the books but beyond that give no help. That's not the kind of publisher you want in my opinion. Seriously, take Dale up on his offer, his input could be a great help to you.

Regards,


~Kev.


----------



## Katie GlassSlipper (Jul 15, 2014)

Greimour said:


> Depending on the publisher things are different, but the _normal_ thing would be that the publisher gives you 10-50 books at a printing cost only.
> 
> Sounds to me like they are charging you half of the royalties you should get for each book in exchange for them giving you a copy at printing/manufacturing costs.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much for this. Your explanation helps. I was, honestly, pretty startled when I went to place my bulk order and they mentioned their royalties on top of the price of the actual book. I had expected to pay for the copies to be printed - we all know ink and paper aren't free - but needing to compensate the publisher for their royalties on top of the cost of printing the book seemed - - - strange - - - to me? 

I didn't know I would still owe the publisher royalties on the books I bought for my own resale/give-away/reviewers etc. 

However, this is my debut novel and despite extensive research, I've been surprised by a few things. I couldn't even find anything online while google-searching this.


----------



## Greimour (Jul 15, 2014)

Welcome,

I hope it helps, but stay wary of your publisher. They don't sound like the cream of the crop to me. But then, perhaps you will have better luck with future publications - you don't, after all, have to stick with the same one forever. Especially if your work meets good reviews and gathers a fan base. 

What is your book titled by the way?

Also -  have heard of one publisher (forget which now but not in my country so not surprising I forgot) that charged their writers the full cost of the book minus royalties that would otherwise be due the author. They are the worst case scenario I have heard off. In the example I gave above, it would essentially mean the author paid $7.50 per book instead of the retail $9.

Just thought I would throw that out there so you know that you haven't encountered the worst publisher I have heard of. But you haven't made your bed with what I would consider 'good' either. Still, for a debut novel, many are happy to settle for less favourable publishers. 


~Kev.


----------



## dale (Jul 15, 2014)

the worst publishers are the ones that charge a writer up-front to be published. those are totally scam-artist publishers.
now...some small pubs are better than others. some have good intentions. but some? they are out to scam a writer. i mean...
we are the ones writing the books. we are the ones bleeding and sweating over the work. for better or worse? we are the gods.
and although i do give my work to a "professional" person? i do understand my work is worth something. if it's not? then the so called
"professional person" isn't too damn professional for offering me a contract. it's not my job to pay him or them. it's their job to pay me.


----------



## Greimour (Jul 15, 2014)

Ah, I stand corrected. I remember reading about those same types of publishers. 

"You pay us $50 and we will give you 10 published copies of your book. But those 10 books will be the only copies in existence anywhere. We will not help you with marketing or sale of your books, that will be entirely up to you. If you want more, it will cost you another $50 for another 10..." 

Meaning you have to sell all 10 for $5 each just to earn your money back. On top of that, if you do earn a big enough profit, it is you who has to pay the taxes and sale charges, etc. 

They are definitely the worst.


----------



## dale (Jul 15, 2014)

Greimour said:


> Ah, I stand corrected. I remember reading about those same types of publishers.
> 
> "You pay us $50 and we will give you 10 published copies of your book. But those 10 books will be the only copies in existence anywhere. We will not help you with marketing or sale of your books, that will be entirely up to you. If you want more, it will cost you another $50 for another 10..."
> 
> ...



i mean....why would a writer do that? there's this little thing called "createspace" now. we can publish total garbage now for like $300. 
and if a person does it that way? the money is all his or hers. i use a publisher because i'm lazy. they get 50% of the profits, but they promote,
got me a book-signing event, got me the cover art, and put my name out there. so they do the job i don't want to. but they give me back.
if those publishers didn't give back? i'd just shoot them or something. i don't like being ripped off.


----------



## Katie GlassSlipper (Jul 15, 2014)

dale said:


> i mean....why would a writer do that? there's this little thing called "createspace" now. we can publish total garbage now for like $300.
> and if a person does it that way? the money is all his or hers. i use a publisher because i'm lazy. they get 50% of the profits, but they promote,
> got me a book-signing event, got me the cover art, and put my name out there. so they do the job i don't want to. but they give me back.
> if those publishers didn't give back? i'd just shoot them or something. i don't like being ripped off.



Dale - I'll pm you in a minute (Had to get offline to make everyone dinner and get some real life things done, lol. 

My publisher promised a lot of goodies. I signed because I wanted the marketing help and promotions. I was willing to give up some profits in exchange for editing, cover art and promotional assistance. Unfortunately - the reality has not matched up to the promises and now I'm left in a bit of a pickle with it. I'm currently trying to figure out what to make an issue out of and what to let slide. I'm also trying to figure out exactly how badly I'm being screwed. 

I think my publisher was well intentioned, but intentions only do so much.


----------



## dale (Jul 15, 2014)

Katie GlassSlipper said:


> Dale - I'll pm you in a minute (Had to get offline to make everyone dinner and get some real life things done, lol.
> 
> My publisher promised a lot of goodies. I signed because I wanted the marketing help and promotions. I was willing to give up some profits in exchange for editing, cover art and promotional assistance. Unfortunately - the reality has not matched up to the promises and now I'm left in a bit of a pickle with it. I'm currently trying to figure out what to make an issue out of and what to let slide. I'm also trying to figure out exactly how badly I'm being screwed.
> 
> I think my publisher was well intentioned, but intentions only do so much.



oh. don't misunderstand me. most small pubs EXPECT for writers to self-promote. you may have a decent small pub. i'm not saying you don't. 
i'm just saying that it's kind of easy to tell, if you start looking.


----------



## movieman (Jul 15, 2014)

dale said:


> i mean....why would a writer do that? there's this little thing called "createspace" now. we can publish total garbage now for like $300.



Most of my Createspace books cost $2 or less to publish, because I paid for one or two stock images for the cover.


----------



## dale (Jul 15, 2014)

movieman said:


> Most of my Createspace books cost $2 or less to publish, because I paid for one or two stock images for the cover.



even better.


----------



## Katie GlassSlipper (Jul 15, 2014)

movieman said:


> Most of my Createspace books cost $2 or less to publish, because I paid for one or two stock images for the cover.



If y'all are serious about paying less than $5 per copy for your books.....yeah...I think I may have more than a slight problem.


----------



## Greimour (Jul 15, 2014)

Pretty sure she's with a bad one. Its a Fee for Service Publishing house ... one of those created by authors like we've seen in the past


----------



## movieman (Jul 15, 2014)

Katie GlassSlipper said:


> If y'all are serious about paying less than $5 per copy for your books.....yeah...I think I may have more than a slight problem.



Sorry, I was talking about the cost of getting the books up on Createspace available to purchase. I think the novel costs about $5 for author copies.


----------



## Greimour (Jul 15, 2014)

movieman said:


> Sorry, I was talking about the cost of getting the books up on Createspace available to purchase. I think the novel costs about $5 for author copies.



That method of self-publishing is usually cheaper than Fee for Service publication though. This might be an exception but I doubt it. I wish I could remember the name of the 2 sister companies we had a lengthy discussion about last year. Both of which had their own staff as listed authors whose work they had published. This one sounds very similar to those 2 companies to me. Need someone with more knowledge on the matter though- I don't have enough know-how for this matter 

OP (Katie) didn't want them named though so I can't list this one either for this case. Just hope Dale can help. :|


----------



## Katie GlassSlipper (Jul 15, 2014)

$5 is still a heck of a lot less than I paid. Of course, the price I was quoted pre-contract was much, much lower than the actual price now. Ugh. I'm getting screwed on this. This publisher started out a small press (when I signed with them) and then turned into a fee-for-service/vanity publisher right before my novel was actually released. Its all gone downhill from there....


I'm trying to make the best of it but....live and learn, I guess.


----------



## Katie GlassSlipper (Jul 15, 2014)

Greimour said:


> Pretty sure she's with a bad one. Its a Fee for Service Publishing house ... one of those created by authors like we've seen in the past



The really frustrating part is that I NEVER would have signed with a fee for service company. NEVER. But when I initially signed with them they were promoting themselves as being a small press. They paid all costs of production and then split royalties. Right before my novel was released, they abruptly switched formats and became a vanity press. I was stunned but it was too late to get out. They upheld their end of my contract - I didn't pay them anything to publish, but they're hitting me pretty hard on the backend.


----------



## dale (Jul 15, 2014)

Katie GlassSlipper said:


> The really frustrating part is that I NEVER would have signed with a fee for service company. NEVER. But when I initially signed with them they were promoting themselves as being a small press. They paid all costs of production and then split royalties. Right before my novel was released, they abruptly switched formats and became a vanity press. I was stunned but it was too late to get out. They upheld their end of my contract - I didn't pay them anything to publish, but they're hitting me pretty hard on the backend.



it's the worst part of the deal. cause we as writers LOVE to get the "acceptance" letter or email. so...naturally...con artists play on that. 
get to know the business. i sent you a couple websites. if you want more help? hit me back. know the business.


----------



## Greimour (Jul 15, 2014)

Katie GlassSlipper said:


> The really frustrating part is that I NEVER would have signed with a fee for service company. NEVER. But when I initially signed with them they were promoting themselves as being a small press. They paid all costs of production and then split royalties. Right before my novel was released, they abruptly switched formats and became a vanity press. I was stunned but it was too late to get out. They upheld their end of my contract - I didn't pay them anything to publish, but they're hitting me pretty hard on the backend.



Perhaps seek a lawyers advice. Though from what I know of America that tends to cost a bit. 

If you signed before they turned into a Vanity press, then the changes to their company procedures should not effect you. That's how it works in the UK. If they want you to fall into their 'new procedures' category, they have to write up a new contract agreement with you. Otherwise they are still bound by the original agreement - no matter what changes the company makes. Failure to make amendments to agreements following a company procedure changes makes them bound to you, not you bound to them. But all of that entirely depends on what the contract actually states.

Either way, if the company changed between you signing with them and the publication of your work - there is a good chance the contract is void. Because you didn't sign with a company that had such procedures, you signed with the older version company.


----------



## TWErvin2 (Jul 15, 2014)

Katie GlassSlipper,

What does your contract with the publisher say?

Normally there is a clause that indicates how many promotional copies the author gets (free of cost) and then often there will be a clause that states the author can get copies directly from the publisher at 50% of the cover price. 

50% is common, from what I've seen, although I've seen it anywhere from 40 to 60%. Sometimes shipping costs are absorbed by the publisher, sometimes it's the responsibility of the author.


----------



## Katie GlassSlipper (Jul 15, 2014)

TWErvin2 said:


> Katie GlassSlipper,
> 
> What does your contract with the publisher say?
> 
> ...



Ah, this is where it started to get a little funky, to be honest. Contract says that I can get copies of the book at the publisher's cost. Contract also says that publisher gets X% of all royalties. 

It never occurred to me that the two statements piggybacked. Meaning that I might have to pay the publisher their royalties ON the books that I purchased at cost.


----------



## TWErvin2 (Jul 16, 2014)

Katie GlassSlipper said:


> Ah, this is where it started to get a little funky, to be honest. Contract says that I can get copies of the book at the publisher's cost. Contract also says that publisher gets X% of all royalties.
> 
> It never occurred to me that the two statements piggybacked. Meaning that I might have to pay the publisher their royalties ON the books that I purchased at cost.



*GlassSlipper*, normal or no, funky or not, what's in the contract you signed is what you agreed to. You (or your agent if you have one) could have attempted to negotiate to have that clause modified if it was something you were uncomfortable with.

I don't know how much you pay for bulk copies. But when sold at book festivals and such, you'll probably earn more than you would via royalties if they were sold at a bookstore or online (unless you steeply discount at the point of sale--the festival or wherever). And why shouldn't a publisher earn some amount from what you sell to recoup the investment in cover art, editing, layout, etc.?  Even from books you hand sell?  If you mention your books on Facebook or even here, with a link, and someone buys because of that promotional effort on your part, should the publisher be excluded from any profit. or earn a reduced profit? If you're going to use the books for purely promotional reasons, such as providing them to reviewers (for example), then make that clear to the publisher or, better yet, ask the publisher to send directly to the reviewers.

If you would've self-published and hired a printer to print your books, you would get all of the books at cost. But a publisher and a printer are two different entities. And it would've been at your out of pocket expense/payment upfront for producing the books (including cover art, layout, ISBN, distribution, warehousing if offset print run was used, etc.)

It does concern me that it says 'royalties' that the publisher will keep (or get or retain) in the contract, but that may just be the way the publisher in question decided to describe the calculation. And 'at cost' being part of the language. Maybe the 'at cost' includes the delivery charge (UPS or USPS) or the time and effort it takes someone on the publisher's staff to make arrangements for the order and delivery to you, and that's calculated into the cost.

That's why understanding the language of the contracts before signing is important. Just as some contracts pay the author via net profit as opposed to a royalty % based on the retail cover price. Net profit or net needs to be defined, or it gets sort of nebulous, and not to the author's benefit.

If you are unsure, the thing to do might be to contact your editor, or whoever your contact is with the publisher, to answer your question about the at cost and x% royalties discrepancy.


----------



## Katie GlassSlipper (Jul 16, 2014)

TWErvin2 said:


> *GlassSlipper*, normal or no, funky or not, what's in the contract you signed is what you agreed to. You (or your agent if you have one) could have attempted to negotiate to have that clause modified if it was something you were uncomfortable with.
> 
> I don't know how much you pay for bulk copies. But when sold at book festivals and such, you'll probably earn more than you would via royalties if they were sold at a bookstore or online (unless you steeply discount at the point of sale--the festival or wherever). And why shouldn't a publisher earn some amount from what you sell to recoup the investment in cover art, editing, layout, etc.?  Even from books you hand sell?  If you mention your books on Facebook or even here, with a link, and someone buys because of that promotional effort on your part, should the publisher be excluded from any profit. or earn a reduced profit? If you're going to use the books for purely promotional reasons, such as providing them to reviewers (for example), then make that clear to the publisher or, better yet, ask the publisher to send directly to the reviewers.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your input. You raise a lot of very valid points that it is important for me to keep in mind. I do believe the publisher deserves their share of the royalties, I just wanted to know if it was normal for their share to be added onto the price of my 'at cost' books. 

As far as that last bit is concerned, I have contacted them. Twice. The silence I'm getting from them is so epic that I can hear the crickets chirping in the distance through my email. The first time I asked for clarification, it was part of a longer email. That part was overlooked/ignored in the response I received. The second email was very specific and asked ONLY about this issue. No response, though I have heard from the same person about a different issue in the time since the email was sent.

Honestly, I most likely wouldn't have posted this thread if they had replied to my question themselves.


----------

