# Is it possible?



## EarnBoogie (Sep 9, 2013)

Hello everyone, this is actually my first post on this forum. As I was reading a few discussions and thinking about my own style of writing, a question came to mind. Is it possible to be a good writer if you don't read books? A lot of my reading is based off RPG games, so naturally I write a lot of fantasy fiction. It would be nice to know what you guys think though.


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## Bakslashjack (Sep 9, 2013)

In-order to be successful, one generally follows the other.


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## EarnBoogie (Sep 9, 2013)

Bakslashjack said:


> In-order to be successful, one generally follows the other.



That's an interesting way of putting it. Why do you think that is?


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## OurJud (Sep 9, 2013)

I think the obvious question, at least to me, is _why_ don't you read? I personally can't understand why anyone who wants to write would not read.

And that's not because I think it's important (although I do, but it doesn't apply here) or that you should force yourself to read. I read for one reason and one reason only (with small exceptions on occasion) and that's because I enjoy it. I don't see how anyone with an inkling to write creatively _wouldn't_ also enjoy reading.


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## OurJud (Sep 9, 2013)

EarnBoogie said:


> That's an interesting way of putting it. Why do you think that is?



Well I'm not about to answer for Bakslashjack, but If you'd asked me that question my answer would be: how do you expect to learn how to write if you don't look at how the professionals do it?


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## Ripslaughter (Sep 9, 2013)

It's not impossible. But I'll tell you this, when I was 12 I would read horrifically bad fanfiction, and come away thinking I had just discovered the pot of literary gold at the end of a rainbow. Now I can't even read most published works without tossing them out in disgust, and as a result I hold my own writing to a higher standard than I would otherwise. Not only that, due to the amount of reading I've done over the years, I am actually capable of understanding what the standard entails and requires. Sure, most of my writing is still garbage, but at least I am aware of that fact and continually attempt to rectify it.


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## Bakslashjack (Sep 9, 2013)

Orson Welles did radio before he went to Hollywood. The first thing he did when he got there is watch movies, lots of them, back to back, to see how others did it. Same thing in writing. It's not impossible, but it will help, a lot.


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## Deleted member 49710 (Sep 9, 2013)

EarnBoogie said:


> Hello everyone, this is actually my first post on this forum. As I was reading a few discussions and thinking about my own style of writing, a question came to mind. Is it possible to be a good writer if you don't read books? A lot of my reading is based off RPG games, so naturally I write a lot of fantasy fiction. It would be nice to know what you guys think though.


How would you know if you were a good writer or not if you don't read good writing?


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## Terry D (Sep 9, 2013)

A writer who doesn't read would be like a musician who doesn't listen to music, or a vegetarian butcher.


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## Jeko (Sep 9, 2013)

Or a blind painter.

But yeah, you need to read. Spend a few years writing and you can't _not _be reading, because you'll end up exposing yourself to so much stuff.


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## EarnBoogie (Sep 9, 2013)

OurJud said:


> I think the obvious question, at least to me, is _why_ don't you read? I personally can't understand why anyone who wants to write would not read.
> 
> And that's not because I think it's important (although I do, but it doesn't apply here) or that you should force yourself to read. I read for one reason and one reason only (with small exceptions on occasion) and that's because I enjoy it. I don't see how anyone with an inkling to write creatively _wouldn't_ also enjoy reading.



I think it would have something to do with how I began writing. At first I wrote only in journals, it wasn't to benefit anyone but myself. Then as time went by, I began writing in school. Teachers praised my writing and I think from there I deemed it unnecessary to read other peoples' work in order to write well. I know that it's far from the truth so I'm not gonna go and start patting myself on the back now, but I'll just say I didn't find many books interesting growing up.


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## EarnBoogie (Sep 9, 2013)

OurJud said:


> Well I'm not about to answer for Bakslashjack, but If you'd asked me that question my answer would be: how do you expect to learn how to write if you don't look at how the professionals do it?



That's true. By watching how other people phrase things in the books I've read, or see how they describe things I've learned a great deal.


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## EarnBoogie (Sep 9, 2013)

Bakslashjack said:


> Orson Welles did radio before he went to Hollywood. The first thing he did when he got there is watch movies, lots of them, back to back, to see how others did it. Same thing in writing. It's not impossible, but it will help, a lot.



I like that answer. I think the imagination is pretty powerful but at times I've found myself stuck trying to find the right words to describe something. If I were to read other peoples' writing, I could possibly write better.


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## EarnBoogie (Sep 9, 2013)

lasm said:


> How would you know if you were a good writer or not if you don't read good writing?



I've reread this question a few times and I haven't been able to find a good answer for it. One of my teachers used to say he didn't like Shakespeare but I thought Shakespeare was one of the best authors of all time. The next year, another of my teachers loved Shakespeare. So it doesn't make one teacher wrong or right, because in the end you can't appeal to everyone's likes. You can only be happy with the work that you've put into what you've written.


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## Sam (Sep 9, 2013)

Not 'possibly'. 

There will always be someone better than you at writing. If you don't study that person, how are you ever going to become better yourself? It's the same in any profession, in any walk of life, in any era. You learn by studying the masters.


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## EarnBoogie (Sep 9, 2013)

Cadence said:


> Or a blind painter.
> 
> But yeah, you need to read. Spend a few years writing and you can't _not _be reading, because you'll end up exposing yourself to so much stuff.



I see. As I said, the games I've played are my primary source of reading. If I gave you a list of books I've read in the last 5 years, there would only be a handful. In my experience, it frustrated me when I didn't understand the images someone was trying to portray, etc.


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## EarnBoogie (Sep 9, 2013)

Sam said:


> Not 'possibly'.
> 
> There will always be someone better than you at writing. If you don't study that person, how are you ever going to become better yourself? It's the same in any profession, in any walk of life, in any era. You learn by studying the masters.



I've never liked the idea of being a follower. To study how others do it in order to get better at something kind of sounds like cheating to me. Because when you think about it, the originators had no one to study. And people would eventually come to emulate them. I'm just thinking out loud here... but I do agree that there is always someone better.


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## Sam (Sep 9, 2013)

The greatest minds of our time and beyond were _all _influenced by the great thinkers who came before them. To overlook that because it "sounds like cheating" would be to deprive yourself of some of the greatest works ever produced. Who do you think inspired Da Vinci to draw the _Mona Lisa_? It was Massacio, Donatello, and his mentor Verrochio. He studied alongside Botticelli as well. 

It's not cheating. It's influence and inspiration. Can you learn to write well without reading? Yes, you can. 'Writing well' is a generic term used to describe someone who can create grammatically sound sentences that flow and are pleasing to the ear. To achieve this, one only needs to practice repeatedly. But there's a difference between 'writing well' and creating characters and stories that entertain a reader. You wouldn't read a dissertation for fun, but they're often exceptionally well-written. You _do _​read novels for fun, however, and unless you know how the people who came before you succeeded, how are you ever supposed to succeed yourself?


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## Morkonan (Sep 9, 2013)

EarnBoogie said:


> ...Is it possible to be a good writer if you don't read books?...



It's possible. After all, the Wright Brothers built and flew an airplane before having ever seen anyone ever flying one. Of course, they were just a couple of airplane inventors that survived the attempt... Many didn't.

Lots of things are possible. But, that doesn't mean that illogical approaches all yield the same probabilities of success as the more rational ones. If you want to be a good writer, it certainly pays off to have experience reading good writing. How else are you going to know what a reader feels like if you've never really been one? Your job is to create something that someone else would want to read. If you don't even know how you might feel reading your ideal work, how are you going to know what to shoot for?

I'm sure there are a lot of writers out there that aren't avid readers. But, for fiction writers, I think that population is someone lower. An essayist or editorial commentator may not find much use for reading fiction, but I'm sure most have a penchant for reading the work of their contemporaries, especially their critics.

If you're a professional, one of the things that you do is make it your business to know as much about your profession as possible, including aspects of your profession that you may not be directly involved within. This is what professionals do. If you don't read the work of your peers, you are hamstringing yourself as a professional - You're forcing yourself to become semi-literate within your own profession.

If you want to be a writer, one of the things you are going to have to do is experience the work of writers that have gone before you. You need to do this, in my opinion.


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## Jeko (Sep 10, 2013)

> I've never liked the idea of being a follower. To study how others do it in order to get better at something kind of sounds like cheating to me. Because when you think about it, the originators had no one to study. And people would eventually come to emulate them.



Sorry, but you won't get anywhere with that attitude.

Everyone learns from and is influenced by everyone before them. That's a fact of life. Ignoring the past is denying yourself a future. 

If you're not a follower, but you're not yet leading anyone, then what are you? The road to leadership is littered with leaders. If you want to be one yourself, you must first be a follower. Obama didn't decide one day he'd become president and wing it. He took the long, arduous road to success.


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## ppsage (Sep 10, 2013)

> Is it possible to be a good writer if you don't read books?


You know what? Most of us around here will never be in the position to find out for ourselves. I say give it a shot. You can always start reading if you have to, but you'll never be able to unring that bell.


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## Dictarium (Sep 10, 2013)

Guys... he's not saying he doesn't read, he's saying he doesn't read novels. He reads stories in RPGs and stuff like that which is basically like reading short stories. You can make arguments about the legitimacy and quality of those who write RPGs but he never said he doesn't read.


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## Outiboros (Sep 10, 2013)

EarnBoogie said:


> I've never liked the idea of being a follower. To study how others do it in order to get better at something kind of sounds like cheating to me. Because when you think about it, the originators had no one to study. And people would eventually come to emulate them. I'm just thinking out loud here... but I do agree that there is always someone better.


Which originators? The hunter-gatherers in caves who told stories of gods and men? Stories have been around for a long time. Every giant stood on the shoulders of other giants. I'd be content with being medium height, but that does mean that if I don't find shoulders to stand on I'll never get anywhere.

Is it cheating? Maybe. But keep in mind - good writers borrow, great writers steal.


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## EarnBoogie (Sep 11, 2013)

Thank you all for your time and input on the subject. What you've said made a lot of sense. I can definitely agree with reading other works being the best way to become better at writing. My only argument is that it isn't the only way to become better. Many things inspire writers to write. It isn't only literature. It can be art or other things in life of creativity so why is it that some people think that it's an absolute must to read what others have written before you in order to write successful novels? That Obama line from Cadence was pretty funny though, to wing Presidency would be unheard of. Dictarium, you are correct in that they're more like short stories. I really do enjoy the heavily text-based games. Outiboros, I like how you said "good writers borrow, great writers steal." What authors do you follow?


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## Jeko (Sep 11, 2013)

> It can be art or other things in life of creativity so why is it that some people think that it's an absolute must to read what others have written before you in order to write successful novels?



Because novels are made of words, and words are what you're trying to communicate your ideas with.


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## Outiboros (Sep 11, 2013)

EarnBoogie said:


> Outiboros, I like how you said "good writers borrow, great writers steal." What authors do you follow?


Follow? I don't follow. All my work is entirely original.


Jokes aside, that's a quote from T.S. Elliot. Supposedly. Sadly, I don't have many authors to follow. I'm still browsing - I only resumed reading a year and a half ago, after years and years of hiatus. The only author I could say I follow is Terry Pratchett, since I read pretty much everything he wrote. Lately I've picked up I, Robot from Isaac Asimov and thoroughly enjoyed it, and I'm thinking of reading more of his work (though Foundation didn't do anything to me) and last week I started in Robert A. Heinlein's Starship Troopers, which is much, much better than I had anticipated. 
As for the rest... I try to read things that are in tune with what I write. Though mostly it's the other way around.


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## EarnBoogie (Sep 11, 2013)

Outiboros, I have a question for you since you mentioned original. What is your definition of original? Is something original if you've created it of your own thoughts? What if someone else has done the same thing but you've never known of it? Would that make what you've created less original? It sounds like a lot of what you read are also movies. Do you watch the movies too? Or do you only read the books? I personally like to do both, I've done so with "The Host", "Twilight", "Lord of the Rings"

Cadence, you make me feel as if I've offended you in some way. Sorry if I have. I know that I have a lot to learn about writing, hence why I am here. I'll keep in mind what you've said.


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## Outiboros (Sep 11, 2013)

EarnBoogie said:


> Outiboros, I have a question for you since you mentioned original. What is your definition of original? Is something original if you've created it of your own thoughts? What if someone else has done the same thing but you've never known of it? Would that make what you've created less original? It sounds like a lot of what you read are also movies. Do you watch the movies too? Or do you only read the books? I personally like to do both, I've done so with "The Host", "Twilight", "Lord of the Rings"


I only mentioned original to make a stupid joke. I don't care much about original. Of course, I don't debate that stealing someone else's work is just downright evil, but being inspired by other work is just part of the process. Though I do feel the drive to be original, or at least diverge from the works that inspire me, only so that people won't call me a hack.

I, Robot and Starship Troopers both have movie adaptations, yes, but the movies are nothing like the books. And the books are better, in my opinion. I watch movies and I read books, but rarely both - I've seen but never read Harry Potter and the Hobbit and I've read but never seen... uh... well, there's bound to be some.


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## EarnBoogie (Sep 11, 2013)

Outiboros said:


> Of course, I don't debate that stealing someone else's work is just downright evil, but being inspired by other work is just part of the process. Though I do feel the drive to be original, or at least diverge from the works that inspire me, only so that people won't call me a hack.



I know it was a joke, I was just building on it. I think that originality is what stands out the most in a story. It seems like a lot of stories I've read are recycled. They're the same type of stories with different characters to mix it up a bit. I like to see people create whole new realms, come up with their own language even. When you can write on that level where it just feels like you're inside of the story, instead of reading it then I think that's pure awesomeness.

Yeah, movie adaptations are a lot like manga and anime. The manga are usually better for some reason. I would classify myself as more of a watcher instead of a reader though. I might be the only one on this forum who feels that way but that's just me. Is there a movie that you've seen in the past that you would want to read instead?


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## Morkonan (Sep 11, 2013)

EarnBoogie said:


> ... so why is it that some people think that it's an absolute must to read what others have written before you in order to write successful novels? ..



Because they're right?

Look, I understand that you may have not read very many novels. That's OK. But, look at it this way: You're saying that it's perfectly fine to become a master cake chef without ever having seen or tasted a cake.

Does that make sense?

Sure, you can follow directions. You might even be successful at baking a wonderful cake. But, you'll never know what a diner experiences after having sampled a wonderful cake if you never do it yourself. You'll also have no idea what a diner expects from their cake-eating experience, either.

You don't have to read everything and don't have to become some bookish snob, constantly rattling off old Beatnick authors every day. But, if you want to be a good writer, you need to become familiar with what good writing feels like.

Could you write a one-off successful novel. Absolutely! There are plenty of crappy writers out there that happened to hit a fad just at the right moment. But, universally, their stories are panned as the worst sort of tripe available on the shelf. That doesn't really matter very much to the buying public. But, if you want to be a "good" writer, you don't want to be one of these sorts, do you?


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## Outiboros (Sep 11, 2013)

EarnBoogie said:


> I know it was a joke, I was just building on it. I think that originality is what stands out the most in a story. It seems like a lot of stories I've read are recycled. They're the same type of stories with different characters to mix it up a bit. I like to see people create whole new realms, come up with their own language even. When you can write on that level where it just feels like you're inside of the story, instead of reading it then I think that's pure awesomeness.
> 
> Yeah, movie adaptations are a lot like manga and anime. The manga are usually better for some reason. I would classify myself as more of a watcher instead of a reader though. I might be the only one on this forum who feels that way but that's just me. Is there a movie that you've seen in the past that you would want to read instead?


I've done the realms and the languages, but the peoples were still influenced by the Romans and the Prussians, the languages still influenced by Greek and Icelandic and the legends still influenced by Atlantis and the Biblical Exodus. 

A movie that I'd like to read? Huh. I've never thought of it that way. I'd have to think of a movie I've seen, and somehow I can never think of them...


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## EarnBoogie (Sep 11, 2013)

I like your cake reference. I don't usually eat sweets, but now I want cake. Haha!

I can understand what you mean, but I think I know what good writing feels like. I can sense the difference in levels between my writing and one of a published author. And you're right, I'd rather not be one of the crappy writers. My only aim is for others to read and enjoy my work. That's pretty much it. If reading more works of literature will help with that cause then I'd be willing to do it.

Do you only focus on one genre as a writer? Or do you branch out every now and then?


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## EarnBoogie (Sep 11, 2013)

Outiboros said:


> I've done the realms and the languages, but the peoples were still influenced by the Romans and the Prussians, the languages still influenced by Greek and Icelandic and the legends still influenced by Atlantis and the Biblical Exodus.
> 
> A movie that I'd like to read? Huh. I've never thought of it that way. I'd have to think of a movie I've seen, and somehow I can never think of them...



I'm guessing that took a ton of research. Man... just thinking about all the work put into that just tires me out.

I didn't think it would be that hard to think of one. I prefer watching Thrillers and Horrors so I'm curious how some of those types of scenes would play out in a book. Plus I'm interested in some action scenes from certain movies. Curious how an author would describe them.


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## Morkonan (Sep 11, 2013)

EarnBoogie said:


> ...Do you only focus on one genre as a writer? Or do you branch out every now and then?



To me, a genre only serves to specify a certain collection of allowable tools one can use to tell a story. I like the tools of Fantasy and Science Fiction, best, but wouldn't limit myself if I thought I had a good story for other genres.


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## EarnBoogie (Sep 11, 2013)

Morkonan said:


> To me, a genre only serves to specify a certain collection of allowable tools one can use to tell a story. I like the tools of Fantasy and Science Fiction, best, but wouldn't limit myself if I thought I had a good story for other genres.



I feel the same way. It feels as if there's more doors open to those genres. They give more space for creation. Is there a genre you wouldn't approach at all?


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## Jeko (Sep 11, 2013)

> Cadence, you make me feel as if I've offended you in some way. Sorry if I have.



Not at all. 

I don't think it's a matter of whether you should read. As you start to get more into writing, you'll _want _to read.


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## EarnBoogie (Sep 11, 2013)

Cadence said:


> I don't think it's a matter of whether you should read. As you start to get more into writing, you'll _want _to read.



Cool. Then I'll have a reason to visit the library in the future. Haha!  What books have you read that you would recommend though?


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## Jeko (Sep 11, 2013)

> What books have you read that you would recommend though?



For me, it isn't a matter of particular reads, but general, constant, varied reading, of both fiction and non-fiction. Immerse yourself in the world of words.


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## Morkonan (Sep 11, 2013)

EarnBoogie said:


> ... Is there a genre you wouldn't approach at all?



Pulp Romance.


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## J Anfinson (Sep 11, 2013)

The way reading has helped me has been by studying how each author writes. If you pay attention to how they construct sentences and present the story as you're reading, you can absorb their tactics and apply it to your own writing and see if it works for you. Sometimes you'll find you don't like it, and that's okay. Pick another author and see what you can learn from him/her.


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## InkwellMachine (Sep 11, 2013)

I imagine reading dialogue and narrations in RPGs will make you a decent RPG script writer, but a novel? How do you expect to have learned anything about writing a novel from reading video game dialogue?

I guess what I'm saying is that "writing" is not just one all-inclusive occupation. Writing fiction, writing non-fiction, writing novels, writing short stories, scripts, plays, etc., etc.. They're all different things with different rules that need learning. 

So, if you're thinking of writing a novel, yes. It is more or less prerequisite that you read novels, if only to understand some of the 'rules' of novel-writing.


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## EarnBoogie (Sep 12, 2013)

InkwellMachine said:


> Writing fiction, writing non-fiction, writing novels, writing short stories, scripts, plays, etc., etc.. They're all different things with different rules that need learning.



This is interesting. I thought they were all pretty much the same in one way or another. I mean in school I've read screenplays which are really heavy dialogue-based. I've also read a few short-stories and novels which had the same feel to me. Of course the short-stories can only be a certain amount of pages long. I'm curious as to what these rules are.


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## EarnBoogie (Sep 12, 2013)

J Anfinson said:


> The way reading has helped me has been by studying how each author writes. If you pay attention to how they construct sentences and present the story as you're reading, you can absorb their tactics and apply it to your own writing and see if it works for you. Sometimes you'll find you don't like it, and that's okay. Pick another author and see what you can learn from him/her.



Agreed. The most well known authors I've read from are Shakespeare and Hemmingway. I don't think either of their styles were for me, though I liked them both. A lot of authors from back then were a little looney if you ask me. Possibly walking the fine line between brilliance and insanity.


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## luckyscars (Sep 12, 2013)

Morkonan said:


> It's possible. After all, the Wright Brothers built and flew an airplane before having ever seen anyone ever flying one. Of course, they were just a couple of airplane inventors that survived the attempt... Many didn't.



The Wright Brothers spent years studying gliders and were well versed in engineering and all contemporary aspects of aerodynamics. OK, they hadn't seen a plane but they were inventors of powered flight, not masters of it. They set out to CREATE powered flight, not necessarily to master it - at least not initially. That's like saying Neanderthals who did cave paintings were great artists. Obviously they were not. Their work is significant not because of what it was but because of what it begun. There's a vast difference in creating an artform and mastering it. 

My view on this subject is pretty straightforward: A good writer has to be a good reader. Now, I don't read anywhere near as much as I did when I was younger, before I started writing. That is simply because my time is now split between reading and writing. But I UNDERSTAND reading. I HAVE read. I spent years doing little else. Now I read less, but it doesnt change the fact I have a solid background in reading.

I'm going to say something you may not like and that other people may not like, because it is presumptive and I . But I don't care. Chiefly because I have been through this enough times and read the work of so called 'writers' who do not read. 

Ready? Okay....

*OP: Your writing probably stinks.*

Now, you may be annoyed by my saying that, and that's okay and I'm sorry if I do. Feel free to prove me wrong. Out of pure fascination, I'd LOVE to see you prove me wrong. I'd love for you to be that one unique individual who somehow manages to defy all logic in being the only good writer who didn't care to read. But the problem is it is extremely hard to believe it to be 'possible'. Because that just isn't how it works. See above analogies of blind artists and so on.

Unfortunately I can almost guarantee that if you were to furnish us with your work it would be inundated with errors, poorly constructed sentences, wooden dialogue and bad overall pacing (among other things). Why? Because that's all stuff a writer learns from reading. You can't learn it the same way from games, nor tv, nor movies. You need to know that stuff. It is arrogance to suppose otherwise.

But take heart on one thing: You may well have a very good mind for stories. Just do the groundwork. Believe me, it matters, and it will pay off.


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