# What am I doing wrong when motivating characters?



## ironpony (Aug 25, 2016)

For my story, I asked a lot of people about it, cause I was having problems with writing the legal technicalities of the plot.  Basically it's a cops vs. villains type thriller, and before I kept trying to write it so that the cops would get evidence on the villains and then go arrest them.  But I could never come up with evidence that was admissible in court, and there were all sorts of legal problems with the plot that I couldn't get around, when it comes to police work.  And I didn't want to make my villains too stupid, in order to force them to leave evidence lying around to get caught, if that makes sense.

So it was suggested to me by others, even a couple of people on here, to have the hero just get revenge on the villains and kill them, since they keep getting away with their crimes.  However, I wrote a couple of revenge endings, but now people are telling me that the hero overreacts, and makes insanely stupid decisions that will get him into trouble.  But's kind of what revenge is, isn't?  An angry man, not in the best state of mind.  But now readers think that hero has gone off the wall, and not in a good way.

When it comes to motivating a character into snapping, how can I write it so that the reader will believe it, instead of feeling that it's too much, if that makes sense?


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## Sam (Aug 25, 2016)

Who are these 'people'? Because at this stage, they're contradicting themselves. Unless, of course, you're in contact with two dozen people. 

I've been writing for twenty years, ironpony, and I've written a lot in that time. Yet, in all those years, I haven't asked nearly the amount of questions that you've asked about _one _story. Which means one of two things: you are biting off _way _more than you can chew on this story, or you are in over your head with how you're trying to write it. 

Start simple. You're trying to craft a complex story before you've crafted a straightforward one. My advice would be: put this cops vs villains story on the backburner and start something else. Keep it simple, keep it short, and learn how to walk before you try to sprint.


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## Ultraroel (Aug 25, 2016)

I think the problem is not necessarily what Sam indicates.
The problem is that you change your story to ANYTHING your readers say. At some point you have to say: It's my story and it's my idea. Screw that.

You CANNOT satisfy everyone and trying to will make your story bland and tasteless. 

Instead, stick true to what you think should be important. Also, ask people to provide you with good reasons why and examples. I can say a lot of things about a writing, but explanations and examples will help you grow, instead of making you doubt every part of the story. Its your story, You make the decisions and sometimes you can decide to go along with a change. But changing your story to every whim will make it hard for you to track and weird for people to read as it probably will contradict every other paragraph..


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## Bishop (Aug 25, 2016)

Try to put yourself in the character's shoes; we can't tell you what would make YOUR character do X, Y, or Z, only suggest possibilities. But you need to be able to do this on your own, as character motivation is a major part of writing deep engaging characters. So ask yourself what you would do. Then ask what the character would do, thinking about the differences between yourself and the character. Go with what feels right, and then write it.


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## ironpony (Aug 26, 2016)

That's true I haven't been getting a lot of reasons as to why a reader might not like it.  If a reader says he does not like a character decision cause he say's it's because it's illogical, what if putting myself in the characters shoes actually makes me believe the character would do something illogical?  Should I go with that even if it may be illogical?


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## Bishop (Aug 26, 2016)

ironpony said:


> That's true I haven't been getting a lot of reasons as to why a reader might not like it.  If a reader says he does not like a character decision cause he say's it's because it's illogical, what if putting myself in the characters shoes actually makes me believe the character would do something illogical?  Should I go with that even if it may be illogical?



At this point, I think you need to just write the story and stop asking everyone and their mom about every facet of the story. Just do what feels right to you. If someone else doesn't like it, they just might not like it. Research hard, learn what police procedure and criminal justice rules are, educate yourself to the level of your characters as best you can, then write their decisions in these situations as to how they feel right to you.


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## Terry D (Aug 26, 2016)

What Bishop said. No writer ever completed a story, book, or screenplay, by compiling consensus on every scene and plot twist. This paralyzing indecision you are trying to get us to believe you are suffering is self-induced, and, IMO, evidence that you are just jerking people around with no intention of ever writing a movie. You been asking the same questions about the same screenplay for a year-and-a-half. It's time to call bullshit.


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## Kyle R (Aug 26, 2016)

ironpony said:


> When it comes to motivating a character into snapping, how can I write it so that the reader will believe it, instead of feeling that it's too much, if that makes sense?



There's no cure-all solution, other than to write your characters (and your story) to the best of your ability.

As James Cameron wisely said: "Just do it. ... don't wait for the perfect conditions because they'll never be perfect."

Also, if you want to be a successful writer (or screenwriter), you'll have to learn to finish your projects and move on to the next ones. 

Write, edit, publish. Repeat. That's the yellow-brick road to success.

Fretting about all these reader suggestions will just keep your tires spinning in the mud. Readers and audiences don't care about perfection, anyway—they just want to be moved and entertained. :encouragement:


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## Annoying kid (Aug 26, 2016)

Kyle R said:


> There's no cure-all solution, other than to write your characters (and your story) to the best of your ability.
> 
> As James Cameron wisely said: "Just do it. ... don't wait for the perfect conditions because they'll never be perfect."
> 
> ...



You can make a decent living off that, but who's gonna remember your factory line books when you're in the grave?


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## Kyle R (Aug 26, 2016)

Annoying kid said:
			
		

> You can make a decent living off that, but who's gonna remember your factory line books when you're in the grave?



Some might. Some won't. Only time would tell!

But if we're talking completed works here: Who'll remember the book you never wrote? :read:


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## Terry D (Aug 26, 2016)

Annoying kid said:


> You can make a decent living off that, but who's gonna remember your factory line books when you're in the grave?



Who said anything about "factory line" books? What Kyle is talking about is being a professional writer. Developing the self discipline to see a project through and then start the next one. We only improve through practice, and we need to practice finishing too.

Once I'm dead, I won't care about being remembered. Worrying about that now is just ego.


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## Tettsuo (Aug 26, 2016)

For others who are reading this thread, there's no one way to motivate a character as each character is an individual unto themselves.  It's the same in real life.  Each person has their individual breaking points and sometimes, a specific thing or set of things can break specific people.

For example - The Punisher (Netflix version)
Frank Castle was a war veteran.  He's witnessed many die and killed many people as well.  So how can a person with so much experience with death and mayhem snap because of his family's death?  Easy.  He family was that thing that held him together.  They were his glue.  The key for the audience was showing him reveal a photo of his wife and son while he was in the middle of a fire-fight.  *Now the audience is given the reason for him snapping, and we can release the need for further explanation of why he went off the rails.*  That's all we needed, a moment of the character showing us what's the most important thing to him.

It's also a great example of "show don't tell".

So the key is setup.  *Your job as the author is to setup the triggers then pull them all*.


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## Bishop (Aug 26, 2016)

Annoying kid said:


> You can make a decent living off that, but who's gonna remember your factory line books when you're in the grave?



When you get to approaching 30, you realize that you don't care about your legacy after you're dead. Because then, you're dead. Who cares? I want to make money while I'm alive enough to spend it.


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## Annoying kid (Aug 26, 2016)

Terry D said:


> Who said anything about "factory line" books? What Kyle is talking about is being a professional writer. Developing the self discipline to see a project through and then start the next one. We only improve through practice, and we need to practice finishing too.
> 
> Once I'm dead, I won't care about being remembered. Worrying about that now is just ego.



Actually he's talking about being a _moderately successful full time_ professional. Living from pay check to paycheck, and just releasing something out there. Anything if you have to, and move on to the next to stay on commercial schedule so you can pay your bills.

No where was it suggested that life was desired by the OP. It was just thrown out there without asking if that's what he wanted, because of "ego" instead of actually giving him advice.


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## Bishop (Aug 26, 2016)

Annoying kid said:


> Actually he's talking about being a _moderately successful full time_ professional. Living from pay check to paycheck, and just releasing something out there. Anything if you have to, and move on to the next to stay on commercial schedule so you can pay your bills.
> 
> No where was it suggested that life was desired by the OP. It was just thrown out there without asking if that's what he wanted, because of "ego" instead of actually giving him advice.



He was talking about success in general. And I really doubt anyone who can be described as even moderately successful and full time professional writer is living "paycheck to paycheck". The point isn't getting works done just to get them published, it's in getting them done to improve. No one will publish everything they write. Ever. It won't happen. We all start off writing horrible stories. I get sick when I read the work I posted on this very site just a few years ago, back when I lauded it as my best work.

There's a common statement in programming: if your code looks the same today as it did six months ago, you're failing. You improve with every keystroke, in writing and in coding. So when someone works for YEARS on a single work, all I see is stagnation. I don't even want to be published, but I work my ass off to finish every book I write because getting to the end and editing it is HALF of the practice you need to create good works.


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## Annoying kid (Aug 26, 2016)

Maybe the OP defines success as the enjoyment he gets from slaving away at one book for twenty years plus. There's an assumption that how the OP sees success is the same as how you see it. Which is not necessarily the case.


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## Terry D (Aug 26, 2016)

Annoying kid said:


> Maybe the OP defines success as the enjoyment he gets from slaving away at one book for twenty years plus. There's an assumption that how the OP sees success is the same as how you see it. Which is not necessarily the case.



Actually the OP is supposedly writing a screenplay.


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## Bishop (Aug 26, 2016)

Annoying kid said:


> Maybe the OP defines success as the enjoyment he gets from slaving away at one book for twenty years plus. There's an assumption that how the OP sees success is the same as how you see it. Which is not necessarily the case.



I would write something about that maybe being the case, but I'm too embittered by this process at this point... slaving away at a single work for that long is a stagnant artist, by definition. Period. I can see someone slaving away for a while at a long running series, a-la Wheel of Time. But a single work? No.


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## LeeC (Aug 26, 2016)

Bishop said:


> When you get to approaching 30, you realize that you don't care about your legacy after you're dead. Because then, you're dead. Who cares? I want to make money while I'm alive enough to spend it.


[pertinent to second response]I'm sure you didn't mean it in the broader sense I read it, but that's the cattle chute we all get herded into in a materialistic society, which decays from the bottom and collapses on itself. We've surpassed ourselves this time and aren't leaving a world for our children. Maybe when reaching two and a half times thirty, one thinks about how their great grandchildren view them. You might better understand what I'm saying if you read Donnam's book Wild Roots.



Bishop said:


> I would write something about that maybe being the case, but I'm too embittered by this process at this point... slaving away at a single work for that long is a stagnant artist, by definition. Period. I can see someone slaving away for a while at a long running series, a-la Wheel of Time. But a single work? No.


I suppose that in writing to strictly entertain others, and maybe make a few bucks along the way, your comment "a stagnant artist, by definition" is applicable. But what if one writes only to try to clear the cataracts from the human bubble, to give our species a bit more longevity than they'll have on our current course. Writing as such is a process of trying to find a way to communicate with those that are too wrapped up in trying to get by to give any thought to where they're headed. I may never be done with my book till more are interested in the storyline. That because otherwise the underlying biocentric thoughts will never tickle their mind. Many more people get wrapped up in books about getting rich, and mental crutches like belief based books, than do in the realities of the natural world. 

“_One of the penalties of an ecological education is that one lives alone in a world of wounds. Much of the damage inflicted on land is quite invisible to laymen. An ecologist must either harden his shell and make believe that the consequences of science are none of his business, or he must be the doctor who sees the marks of death in a community that believes itself well and does not want to be told otherwise._”  ~  Aldo Leopold, A Sand County Almanac

Peace, and I wish you every success *Save**Save*​


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## Bishop (Aug 26, 2016)

LeeC said:


> [pertinent to second response]Maybe when reaching two and a half times thirty, one thinks about how their great grandchildren view them.



While I have absolutely no doubts in my mind that my outlook will change drastically over the next three decades, I can promise the grandchildren part will not happen--my vasectomy saw to that  But I do see where you're coming from.


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## Jay Greenstein (Aug 26, 2016)

> When it comes to motivating a character into snapping, how can I write  it so that the reader will believe it, instead of feeling that it's too  much, if that makes sense?


The answer would seem pretty obvious. You have over seventy posts, here alone, asking questions, always about plot points but never about writing skills, and have posted not a word of your work to see how well you're doing. You talk about people commenting on your writing, and have done that on multiple sites, but never say where that commenting takes place or who these people are.

Based on the level of your questions, it would appear that your secondary problem is that you've not spent enough time grounding yourself in the basics of writing fiction for the page as publishers, agents, and teachers view that act.

Your primary problem is that you spend far too much time asking the same questions over and over, on multiple websites instead of learning your craft and actually writing. A quick Google search on "Ironpony writer" came up with eight other sites on which you post the same questions but no writing samples: WritersBeat, WritersNet, FilmmakerForum, YoungwritersOnline, City-Data, Studentfilmmakers, RealPolice, Absolutewrite.

The short version: Stop playing around and focus on getting something written.


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## ironpony (Aug 27, 2016)

Okay thanks.  I will do that.  I will finish it in an entirety instead of leaving certain gaps empty, and then post it for people to see it in an entirety if that is better.  Do you think that sometimes, some readers or people I ask can be overthink the plot details too much and let too much bother them perhaps?

For example, one writer I asked, said that one of the huge plot holes in my story is that when the police go to arrest someone and they know that the suspect is not home, they go to where the suspect is and arrest him without applying for a new warrant.  He says that when the police get an arrest warrant, it has to say on the warrant where the police will go to arrest the suspect, such as his home.  If the suspect moves to a new location, the police have to get a new warrant with the new location name on it every time.

He said that most readers will forgive the plot hole of it's the only one, but since it's not, most readers will put the script down at this point.  But is that arrest warrant thing really the icing on the cake that will cause readers to stop reading?  Is he possibly nitpicking when it comes to something as particular as that?


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## T.S.Bowman (Aug 28, 2016)

I sure would like to know where it is that the cops have to have an address on an arrest warrant. That would have saved me a whole lot of headaches over that unpaid fine I had.

I would have just never been home. And by the way...they didn't come to my house. They got me at my girlfriend's place.


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## Kyle R (Aug 28, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Do you think that sometimes, some readers or people I ask can be overthink the plot details too much and let too much bother them perhaps?


Sure.

Thing is: readers will _always_ have other ideas about your story. You can rewrite it a thousand different ways, and readers will _still_ point out things that they think you should change. Once you realize this, you'll see that rewriting based on feedback can turn into a never-ending cycle.

If you keep returning for more feedback, you'll keep running into rewrite suggestions. Again, and again, and again . . . Eventually, your story won't be yours anymore—it'll be some weird amalgam of ideas from various readers.

At some point you have to trust yourself and your concept. You'll have to acknowledge that you won't please everyone (no writer ever will). You'll have to say, "To hell with reader feedback!", write until you reach _The End_, and move forward from there.

After all, _you're_ the writer. You call all the shots. :encouragement:


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## ironpony (Aug 29, 2016)

Okay thanks.  Well I was told by a few people also that in order to make the characters behavior more acceptable, that I should research it by interviewing criminal psychologists.  I could do that, but is that the way to go?


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## Ultraroel (Aug 29, 2016)

So many people told you the same thing.
And the first thing you do, is to continue the exact way you have.. Not gonna reply anymore.


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## T.S.Bowman (Aug 29, 2016)

Ultraroel said:


> So many people told you the same thing.
> And the first thing you do, is to continue the exact way you have.. Not gonna reply anymore.



I gave up on it quite a while ago. The cycle seems to have no end. 

@ironpony - just write the damn story. For every person who has told you to change this or that or the other thing, there are probably going to be twenty others who simply don't give a crap as long as they are entertained. You spend so much time trying to wriggle your way through a minefield of "feedback" that you are losing your place. Do you even know what you story was supposed to be about in the first place?


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## Kyle R (Aug 29, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Okay thanks.  Well I was told by a few people also that in order to make the characters behavior more acceptable, that I should research it by interviewing criminal psychologists.  I could do that, but is that the way to go?



How do you get good at crafting a solid story, with believable characters, and a compelling plot? In my opinion, you do it by writing story after story, from beginning to end, and improving a little more with each one.

If you get stuck reworking the same incomplete story over and over, you're robbing yourself of much needed experience. It'd be like a sprinter backtracking and asking questions in the middle of every race. "Did I take that step correctly? Was my speed okay? Should I interview other runners to see what they have for breakfast?"

Better to just run the race from beginning to end. Write the story from beginning to end. See how it turns out. Learn from it. Apply that knowledge to your next story. And your next. And your next . . .

And before you know it, all that experience will have turned you into a damn good writer! :encouragement:


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## ironpony (Aug 29, 2016)

Okay.  I was told by others long before that it's a waste of time to write out a whole story, without fixing the problem first.  But I will do the opposite approach and write out a whole story, and see what people think, if that's better.


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## Bishop (Aug 29, 2016)

ironpony said:


> Okay.  I was told by others long before that it's a waste of time to write out a whole story, without fixing the problem first.



Those people are wrong.



ironpony said:


> But I will do the opposite approach and write out a whole story, and see what people think, if that's better.



Yes. This is also good for your benefit. You cannot effectively edit a piece until it is complete, because not all of the story is there. You can say, "Well I plan on doing this" but until you see it fully written in prose, you can't make effective changes to suit that writing as a whole.


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## LeeC (Aug 29, 2016)

ironpony said:


> But I will do the opposite approach and write out a whole story, and see what people think, if that's better.


Do I hear an echo


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## Ultraroel (Aug 30, 2016)

ironpony said:


> But I will do the opposite approach and write out a whole story.



I don't believe you. 
In a few weeks you'll come back with the same questions.


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## ironpony (Aug 31, 2016)

Okay thanks.  Before I kept having the problem of painting myself into a corner if I write out the whole thing, so I thought I would perfect the story outlines first, before writing it out.  John Truby who's book I read on screenwriting had this to say about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VNJ1mzFHNA

Do you think that maybe he is wrong and it's best to write the whole thing out first, and then deal with being painted into a corner when it comes, instead of trying to avoid it, prior?  At 3 minutes into the video he says you have to make the fixes before you write the draft.

Later in the video, he says that the scene sequence is the most important cause it will show what problems there are, before writing it out.  So I was thinking maybe it's better to post a scene sequence, if most of the problems can be spotted in it.  But is that true?


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## Annoying kid (Aug 31, 2016)

[video=youtube;GvGw_1Eb7bY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvGw_1Eb7bY[/video]

If you want to perfect your outline, go ahead and perfect your outline. Why would you ask if it's a good thing or not? ](*,)

Just do whatever works for you.


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## Kyle R (Aug 31, 2016)

Truby's a big believer in outlining first. That doesn't mean it's the _only_ way to write a great story—it's just the method that he prefers.

Eventually, if you want to be your own writer, you'll have to discover your own method. The only way to do that is through experience. Trial and error. Also, being brave enough to try something new if your current approach isn't working for you.

Plus, you used the word "perfect." My advice? Strike that word from your creative process! Striving for perfection is one of the surest paths to Writer's Block. :grief:


My suggestion:

Step 1) Write your story.

Step 2) Get feedback on it, if you'd like.

Step 3) Edit your story with any feedback in mind.

Step 4) Slap _The End_ on it, and move forward from there.

Step 5) Begin writing your next story. Rinse and repeat!


No matter how tempting it may be, do *not* keep repeating steps 2 and 3 over and over. Don't get caught in that whirlpool! 

Just my advice. Take it or leave it. Your call! :encouragement:


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## Terry D (Aug 31, 2016)

Kyle R said:


> My suggestion:
> 
> Step 1) Write your story.
> 
> ...



Or, as seems to be the case here, an endless repetition of Step #2.


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## ironpony (Aug 31, 2016)

Okay thanks.  So if I have gaps in the plot, where I am not sure how to get from here to there, should I just finish the scripts with those gaps left blank, and see what people say first, with the rest of it all written out?


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## Annoying kid (Aug 31, 2016)

No gaps. One thing has to lead to another, if only in your mind. Or else it's a cluster****.


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## ironpony (Aug 31, 2016)

Okay thanks.  Well I will try to patch the gaps as best as possible and finish it then.


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