# Dystopian fiction



## moderan (Nov 26, 2008)

In view of Non Serviam's excellent writing challenge, I thought I'd throw some words here about dystopian literature for those of you who may not be familiar with this branch of the writing tree.
Here's a handy definition: "Dystopian literature is a potent vehicle for criticizing existing social conditions and political systems. While utopian literature portrays ideal worlds, dystopian literature depicts the flaws and failures of imaginative societies. Often these societies are related to utopias, and the dystopian writers have chosen to reveal shortcomings of those social systems previously considered ideal."
Plus the wiki version and list, plus some personal recommendations.
Novels
R.U.R. (this is actually a novel-length play) and War With the Newts, by Karel Capek.
Fahrenheit 451, by Ray Bradbury
Stand on Zanzibar, the Sheep Look Up, the Shockwave Rider, the Jagged Orbit, by John Brunner
This Perfect Day, by Ira Levin
No Blade of Grass, by John Christopher
The Space Merchants, by CM Kornbluth and Frederik Pohl
334, By Thomas M. Disch

short stories
The Lottery, Shirley Jackson
The Seventh Victim, Robert Sheckley
Twilight, John W. Campbell
A Boy and His Dog, Harlan Ellison
Moderan (collection), by David R. Bunch


----------



## Jonny T (Nov 29, 2008)

Arguably dystopian: The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas, by Ursula LeGuin.


----------



## moderan (Nov 29, 2008)

*nods* Ursula LeGuin has quite a few stories and novels that treat with dystopian themes during the course of the narratives, but don't sit squarely within the bounds. That's one. The Word for World is Forest is another (look at it from the natives' point of view).


----------



## Edgewise (Nov 30, 2008)

I have to add "Clockwork Orange" and "The Wanting Seed" by Burgess.  The first is a classic.  The second should be.


----------



## Dr. Malone (Nov 30, 2008)

Cool.  I haven't read most of those.  New books for my list.


----------



## moderan (Nov 30, 2008)

Edgewise said:


> I have to add "Clockwork Orange" and "The Wanting Seed" by Burgess. The first is a classic. The second should be.


I'd tend to agree. It seems to be rare that an author has more than one "classic", and the piece seen as superior often isn't the best work. Burgess' work in general adheres to a pretty high standard and both of those works are dystopian (see the wiki list). I tried with my recommendations (other than Fahrenheit 451) to include lesser-known works, or works that aren't as well-known outside of the genre.
Dystopianism is often confused with post-apocalyptic work-the two subgenres are related but not necessarily the same thing. Dystopian novels (and stories) are pessimistic, postapocalyptic novels (and stories) by and large optimistic (we survived, after all). The Stand is probably the best-known example of this, though far from the best. Cyberpunk novels are also largely seen as dystopian-they're not, for the most part, and only Gibson's and Pat Cadigan's seem to share the essential pessimism of the dystopian subgenre.
Here are a few more good short stories:
Ozymandias-Terry Carr
The Marching Morons-CM Kornbluth
The Big Flash-Norman Spinrad
The Hole On The Corner-RA Lafferty
novels:
What Entropy Means To Me-George Alec Effinger
The Chrysalids (aka Re-Birth)-John Wyndham
The Iron Heel-Jack London
Player Piano-Kurt Vonnegut


----------



## SilkFX (Nov 30, 2008)

OMG...please allow me to add Margaret Atwood's _The Handmaid's Tale_ and _Oryx and Crake _to the list. Also Octavia Butler's _Parable of the Sower_ and _Parable of the Talents_.


----------



## moderan (Dec 1, 2008)

By all means, though I don't care for those books. They're certainly dystopian in nature. I think my dislike stems from disagreeing with the politics so necessary to those volumes. However I'd recommend Parable of the Talents to anyone who thinks that the Fundamentalist right wing of the Republican party of the US is a _good thing_.
Margaret Atwood I've always seen as a sort of bastard godchild of Joanna Russ, Kate Wilhelm, and Doris Lessing. The Handmaid's Tale especially seems to owe a large debt to Russ' The Female Man and Wilhelm's short story The Funeral, from Again, Dangerous Visions. Her tone owes a great deal to Lessing...unfortunately, imo, as Lessing is offputtingly arid reading.


----------



## Swamp Thing (Dec 1, 2008)

"He, She and It",  also by Atwood, I think would get your dystopian engine running.


----------



## moderan (Dec 2, 2008)

I'll read it if you finish Dhalgren *ducks* Atwood just isn't my flavor of choice. The British New Wave dystopians are my literary chocolate.


----------



## Swamp Thing (Dec 3, 2008)

Finishing Dhalgren doesn't conform my " life's too short for bad literature - mulch it and move on" philosophy.  I've already noticed that Atwood isn't something you like, but I found "He, She and It" something of a departure for her.

"Whatever," to quote my teenager.


----------



## Mike C (Dec 3, 2008)

moderan said:


> The British New Wave dystopians are my literary chocolate.




Mmmm yes. You're a fan of Ballard, then? I spoke to him on the phone a couple of years back. Nice chap, visionary writer. 

Dystopia is a peculiarly English art form. While American SF writers were launching spaceships and searching out metaphorical reds under beds, the English turned their gaze inwards and were frightened by what they saw.


----------



## moderan (Dec 3, 2008)

Yes. I particularly like the novel The Crystal World and the short story The Drowned Giant. Certainly visionary. Never spoke to him on the phone, though. JG Ballard is probably the biggest "name" among the dystopians of the "new wave", i.e., not quite as recognizable as Orwell, Huxley, Wells, but moreso than Wyndham, Brunner, Aldiss, and probably Moorcock. Much more so than Christopher, or DF Jones.
There were some American writers doing dystopian themes, such as Harry Harrison (Make Room, Make Room), Thomas M. Disch (334), and Frank Herbert (Dune certainly has dystopian themes, and Under Pressure and The Green Brain do as well). Vonnegut and Le Guin also worked dystopian themes into their novels and stories, the latter pioneering efforts that worked on anthropological themes.
Anthony Burgess was writing dystopias as well, but he is seen as more in the "literary" school, along with Burroughs.


----------



## JP Wagner (Dec 4, 2008)

American sci fi dystopians aren't exclusivly about interplanetary stories Kim Stanly Robinson wrote a great trilogy dealing with global warming.and look at Michael Crichton before he passed.


----------



## Jonny T (Dec 5, 2008)

moderan said:


> *nods* Ursula LeGuin has quite a few stories and novels that treat with dystopian themes during the course of the narratives, but don't sit squarely within the bounds. That's one. The Word for World is Forest is another (look at it from the natives' point of view).


Agreed. IMO she creates worlds which are utopias to some and dystopias to others, with the reader left to make the final judgement.


----------



## moderan (Dec 5, 2008)

Yes. Though she makes it clear which is her stance, she doesn't make value judgements in most cases. The story I cited above is somewhat different in that it's a polemic.


----------



## Mike C (Dec 5, 2008)

moderan said:


> There were some American writers doing...



For sure, the new wave caused ripples on the far side of the pond. But Vonnegut and Leguin, I think, just developed their own unique styles through sheer force of genius. 

Moorcock is a personal hero and I had the pleasure of interviewing him a few years ago. Probably the most well-read guy I've ever come across, and still growing as a writer.

OT - Moderan, what's the origin of your avatar?


----------



## moderan (Dec 5, 2008)

Messy-looking cyborg pic I found online and recolored. I like it because it isn't prettified and streamlined.
The new wave certainly caused enough waves to make ripples on this side...and there were people who had their own kinds of new wave going on, such as Damon Knight, who began publishing his Orbit series in the mid60s and brought out authors like Norman Spinrad, RA Lafferty, and the young Terry Carr, the last of which was to have greater impact just a few years down the road as an editor for Ace books.
And yes, Vonnegut, LeGuin, I'd hang that tag on them too, as well as on my personal writing hero Roger Zelazny.


----------



## Mike C (Dec 6, 2008)

I've had mixed feelings with Zelazny, though not read too much. He reminded me, if I remember rightly, of Moorcock when writing fantasy - trying to be something more than just another boring fantasy book - but, probably because I'm not a fantasy fan, it missed the mark. His SF is for more interesting, though I've not read as much as I should. So many books, so little time...


----------



## moderan (Dec 6, 2008)

*nods* It's a shame that one cannot read everything. But those multiple Nebula awards must tell you _something_
Ever read any Lafferty? Curious as to whether his sense of humor travels well or not.


----------



## Mike C (Dec 6, 2008)

Sadly, no. Another name to add to the list.


----------



## moderan (Dec 6, 2008)

Indeed. Extremely droll in the classic sense of the word and prone to wackiness and whimsicality. Very little dystopianism, though he does touch on it at times, as in his short story "Parthen", but so many ideas per page interspersed with the chuckles that it's worth seeking his stuff out.
This is where my gradeschool speed-reading course really pays off. It takes me an afternoon to read an average novel. I'll leave you with those two names and make a mental note to revisit at some future date.


----------



## Hoot08 (Mar 17, 2009)

How about 1984 and Brave New World? I must say that Player Piano is probably may favorite Dystopic novel.


----------



## moderan (Mar 17, 2009)

They're definitely all on the BIG LIST. The thread was trying to recommend lesser-known works for people who hadn't read much in the sub-sub-genre, in tandem with a writing challenge that was going on at the time.
My personal favorite is Stand on Zanzibar, perhaps my favorite sf novel of all time. Certainly it has had the most influence on me.


----------



## Leyline (Apr 23, 2009)

moderan said:


> They're definitely all on the BIG LIST. The thread was trying to recommend lesser-known works for people who hadn't read much in the sub-sub-genre, in tandem with a writing challenge that was going on at the time.
> My personal favorite is Stand on Zanzibar, perhaps my favorite sf novel of all time. Certainly it has had the most influence on me.



Of Brunner's work my favorite is probably _The Sheep Look Up_, with _Shockwave Rider_ a close second for its pure visionary brilliance. Brunner is a hero of mine. I consider the fact that he was reduced, at the end of his life, to publicly begging fans at an SF convention to help pay his medical bills to be the perfect, horrible illustration of how the industry treats SF writers.


----------



## Mike C (Apr 24, 2009)

Leyline said:


> the perfect, horrible illustration of how the industry treats SF writers.




Really? You expect the industry to pay writers a pension? Actually it's an ironic demonstration that those fans had stopped buying his books. Readers pay writers' salaries, not publishers.


----------



## Team 2012 (Apr 24, 2009)

The Kilgore Trout Memorial Fund?


----------



## Mike (Apr 24, 2009)

SilkFX said:


> OMG...please allow me to add Margaret Atwood's _The Handmaid's Tale_ and _Oryx and Crake _to the list. Also Octavia Butler's _Parable of the Sower_ and _Parable of the Talents_.


 
Jinx. Anyone who hasn't read Orxy & Crake or Parable of the Sower should be shot dead (in the dystopic future).


----------



## moderan (May 1, 2009)

Leyline said:


> Of Brunner's work my favorite is probably _The Sheep Look Up_, with _Shockwave Rider_ a close second for its pure visionary brilliance. Brunner is a hero of mine. I consider the fact that he was reduced, at the end of his life, to publicly begging fans at an SF convention to help pay his medical bills to be the perfect, horrible illustration of how the industry treats SF writers.


  The entire trilogy is transcendant. Some of his other work, such as The Jagged Orbit and Total Eclipse, maybe the Whole Man, falls into that category as well.  





Mike C said:


> Really? You expect the industry to pay writers a pension? Actually it's an ironic demonstration that those fans had stopped buying his books. Readers pay writers' salaries, not publishers.


 An ugly truth and a sad commentary about the readers. John Brunner didn't deserve that fate. He was also screwed when the Ballantine Books sf line was reimprinted by Lester and Judy-Lynn del Rey and they decided not to reprint the above books. So were some others. This was done in favor of Terry Brooks and his ilk (the first book published under the imprint was the Sword of Shannara). While del Rey did and does publish some decent books, and in handsome editions, they fall far short of the quality level (and the sales) achieved by Ace or Avon in their heydays, or even that of the Ballantine sf series. As a result of the huge advertising push behind the Sword of Shannara and Stephen Donaldson's Lord Foul's Bane (and resultant sales), a good segment of booksellers turned to shelving high fantasy instead of sf.


----------



## Mike C (May 1, 2009)

moderan said:


> ...Stephen Donaldson's Lord Foul's Bane...



Dreadful, dreadful tripe.


----------



## moderan (May 1, 2009)

I would tend to agree. I have in my possession six books of that series (they were given to me) and they are just nonsense, through and through. So are the Shannara books, simply drivel unfit to line my bird's cage with or to wrap fish in. But then, so much of what's on the market now or in any age fits in the same category. The audience is none-too-discerning. A world in which Brooks and Donaldson achieve consistent publication-now _that's_ dystopian.


----------



## seigfried007 (May 1, 2009)

Sci-fi's just too 'interlectual' for people who read for pleasure and really don't want to think about much. It's the thinking part (and the really frigging frightening aspect) that is such a turn-on and a turn-off, depending on the reader. Dystopian fiction is bottom line the scariest stuff out there.


----------



## moderan (May 1, 2009)

Y'mean it isn't all spaceships and rayguns?  *sighs heavily* The Marching Morons won a long time ago. I just love this windmill, though.


----------



## seigfried007 (May 1, 2009)

:smacks forehead: 

You know, I hardly consider rayguns and spaceships sci-fi, I've just gotten so used to the heavyhitting shiznit. Of course, I don't write about rayguns and spaceships--even when space travel and other-than-sold ammunition is used, it really doesn't figure that big into the plot so I gloss it over. Because that's just trappings and it doesn't really matter in the long haul.


----------



## moderan (May 1, 2009)

seigfried007 said:


> :smacks forehead:
> 
> You know, I hardly consider rayguns and spaceships sci-fi, I've just gotten so used to the heavyhitting shiznit. Of course, I don't write about rayguns and spaceships--even when space travel and other-than-sold ammunition is used, it really doesn't figure that big into the plot so I gloss it over. Because that's just trappings and it doesn't really matter in the long haul.



But the general public DOES. In fact, that's all sci-fi is to them. It's why I hate the term. I call my stuff sf. Always have. I don't do skiffy, that's for the unwashed. Grouse grouse grouse grouse...look at the grouse! Maybe I'm prejudiced. I've just had a novel bounced because "there's no market for real science fiction right now", and I'm more than a little angry about that. I don't mind spending the time writing the thing, and will ship it to the next in line...but I hate that it's probably true. I gotta lotta other hates that I won't get into right now. 
Generally I do dystopian or near-future stuff because then I don't have to deal with rubber science. I'm not so sure human beings will ever reach the stars, and I'm pretty damn sure we shouldn't. Mostly I write about the consequences of stupidity and shortsightedness, because that's all around us, and it's easy to see, and it entertains me in some sadistic/Puritan kinda fashion. Plus I get to be right almost all of the time *insert evil laughter here* because said stupidity and shortsightedness and special interests and such are certainly driving the whole lot of us lemmings toward the effing brink, and even the stupidest are starting to see it. The madmen who say it isn't happening we can't do anything about except offer pity.  
And you see, in that circular sort of fashion, that's exactly the problem. Dystopianism isn't escapist. It's like rubbing the puppy's nose in the dung he's left on the living room carpet. I dare anyone to go through the oft-mentioned John Brunner trilogy and tell me that the descriptions of the collapsing society and ecosystem aren't absolutely spot-on, or go through, say, Thomas Disch's 334 or Harry Harrison's Make Room, Make Room, and tell me that those descriptions aren't spot-on too. Ack! Make mine Soylent Green!


----------



## seigfried007 (May 1, 2009)

Well, here's a pat on the back and shoulder to cry on. I've got bosoms to cry on, but you might need to get in line and get your partner to sign a permission slip 

I don't bother with anything other than dystopian, really. That's where the meat and potatoes is; it's what makes sf a heavy-hitting genre and something to take seriously. It's not dark lords puff or romantic fluff. It's something to chew on and a way to let people see, "Hey, this could be us if we don't do something." The literay equivalent of those nasty picture shows of car accidents and STDs they show in basic training and high school.


----------



## moderan (May 1, 2009)

Ahhh, I'm not cryin', just 'splainin'. I'll keep shopping the book 'til it gets _out there_. Having re-acquired the habit of submitting my things, I'm loathe to give it up again.
I quite agree that dystopian fiction is where the good stuff's at, where the real magic funhouse mirror that we writers get to hold up to society's acne-scarred face is and probably always will be. I just don't think there's much of a future for it any more. People don't want reality.


----------



## Leyline (May 1, 2009)

> It's why I hate the term. I call my stuff sf. Always have. I don't do skiffy, that's for the unwashed.



Same here. When I was a kid the use of the term 'sci-fi' vs. SF or even spec fic was a nice and simple way to determine who was a serious or shallow fan. It's harder these daus, since the damned term is everywhere, even used regularly by certain prominent writers. I'm too stinkin' proud, myself. I'm as old school as they come. My mother taught me to read from the Doubleday combined book club edition of _The Hugo Winners Vols.1 & 2_. Cliff Simak's "The Big Front Yard" was actually the first story I ever read on my own, all the way through. It's a favorite memory, methodically reading word by word, sounding out a lot of them, going to the dictionary again and again.

I consider myself lucky that I was exposed to such wonderful stuff so early, and that with that first basic epiphany I got, as a bonus gift, the concept that writing could create new worlds.



> I'm not so sure human beings will ever reach the stars, and I'm pretty damn sure we shouldn't.



I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I think that happens to be the only destiny worth fighting for. This is another facet of that early exposure: I am a devout Cambellian-Heinleiner. While I can certainly enjoy a good dystopian or cynical tale, I prefer something with some optimism, hopefully a balanced depiction.


----------



## moderan (May 1, 2009)

Leyline said:


> Same here. When I was a kid the use of the term 'sci-fi' vs. SF or even spec fic was a nice and simple way to determine who was a serious or shallow fan. It's harder these days, since the damned term is everywhere, even used regularly by certain prominent writers. I'm too stinkin' proud, myself. I'm as old school as they come. My mother taught me to read from the Doubleday combined book club edition of _The Hugo Winners Vols.1 & 2_. Cliff Simak's "The Big Front Yard" was actually the first story I ever read on my own, all the way through. It's a favorite memory, methodically reading word by word, sounding out a lot of them, going to the dictionary again and again.
> 
> I consider myself lucky that I was exposed to such wonderful stuff so early, and that with that first basic epiphany I got, as a bonus gift, the concept that writing could create new worlds.



I couldn't agree more. Simak's work is excellent, on balance. I was fortunate enough to encounter "City" somewhere in my seventh year. & "Ring Around the Sun" at about the same time, though I doubt I understood _that_ one. I have the SF Book Club edition of that set, as it happens. Am entering my 35th year of membership, though I rarely buy anymore.
The first story I read on my own, all the way through, was probably The Phantom Tollbooth. That or Lennon's A Spaniard In the Works. I got there from Dr. Seuss. First sf was almost definitely the Game of Rat and Dragon in a six-year-old issue of Galaxy (I'm about ten years older than you are). 



> I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I think that happens to be the only destiny worth fighting for. This is another facet of that early exposure: I am a devout Cambellian-Heinleiner. While I can certainly enjoy a good dystopian or cynical tale, I prefer something with some optimism, hopefully a balanced depiction.


It _is_ the only destiny worth fighting for, but I don't think human beings are evolving in a direction that will allow such a grand future. If I'm to follow suit with a description, I am a Kornbluthian/Pohlian/Sheckleyan. I'd love to be optimistic, but I think optimism is groundless. Maybe we'll be lucky enough not to explode this planet like a stick of dynamite in a rotten apple, but the day after the day the martians come, we run out of options


----------



## Leyline (May 1, 2009)

Hey -- have you heard that F. Pohl has recently started a blog, posting mainly on his memoirs? The Way The Future Blogs, is a fascinating and lighthearted look at a life spent in the \sf writing and publishing world. Pohl has met all the greats and has a steel trap memory. If you haven't bookmarked it yet, I heartily recommend it.


----------



## moderan (May 1, 2009)

*nods* I have, but it's worth seeing for other folks. I have the book the blog title references, fantastic read, and I've met Mr. Pohl several times.


----------

