# Is the workshop is for learning...or a pat on the back>



## Apex (Aug 11, 2014)

*Is the workshop for *


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## Bilston Blue (Aug 11, 2014)

A very good writer who used to walk the halls of this forum once said to me, about her critiquing the work of others, she always remembers there's a writer behind the work presented for critique. My thought, and likely her point, was that writers have feelings.

Re your comments being harsh, brutal, merciless, mean, and even nasty: there's no need for nasty is there, really? Even mean is a stretch too far. Merciless? Don't know. Harsh and brutal? Sometimes the truth hurts but it's always required. 



> I am  of the old school; “*a writers time is better spent learning to write,  than waste a good tree.” *


Grammatically all over the place here, but your point is way off, for where better to learn to write than amongst writers (and readers) of all levels of ability and who all harbour different aims and ambitions for their written output. Some want to go places with the craft, publish novels, appear in highly respected journals, etc., whilst for others it's a hobby, a pastime, something to do after work in order to relax. Some are aiming for improvement all the time and are their own worst critic, others aren't too fussed about improvement or betterment, only that they get something down when they have the time. I think, when you've been around the forum for a while, you'll get to know which writers fall into which category, and it'll become easier to design your critique to suit its recipient. Picking faults out is what writers want, but there's a way to do it, and however many faults there are, there can always be room for praise in one area or another, maybe to soften the blow of your harshest comments. Also, _a writers time _= _a writer*'*s time._



> We all know who Mark Twain was...a great writer. If there are any who  *would* not want to write as he did, well, maybe you should be driving a  truck in Alaska.


_If there are any who *do* not want to write as he did_ is more grammatically correct. _*Would*_ is conditional, I believe, which requires to be part of either a declarative, interrogative, or imperative sentence. Your sentence appears to be none of these. I consider myself to still be learning this stuff, and so am happy to be corrected. Further, there's an ice road trucker who hangs around these forums from time to time. I believe he's at least one novel published, possibly two. 



> *Some one*, and I have never found who,


Someone



> Here is what I found that made him a great writer.
> 
> As a reporter in Virginia city under his real name, Sam Clemens, the  poor fellow could not write to save his bacon. I used to go to Virginia  City each year, and sit for hours reading what he wrote.


Your first sentence here seems to require a colon, which introduces the directly related information that follows, and thus the information about Twain doesn't need a new paragraph.



> and the *cloths* on his back


Clothes?



> Never mind what I just said...here's a few pats on the back...pat, pat,pat, pat,pat. Hows your writing now, better?


Sarcasm won't endear you to regular readers in the workshop, where people go for serious critique. It really won't.

Line spaces between paragraphs is helpful for readers on the forum, otherwise your writing appears as large blocks of text which isn't easy on the eye. Sometimes you'll need to reformat these as there're occasionally little gremlins hanging around who muck up your formatting.


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## Sam (Aug 11, 2014)

Apex said:


> Hows your writing now, better?



My writing is fine. Yours, on the other hand, could use a lot of work. 

I'm afraid nasty is a two-way street. Perhaps that's something for you to think about.


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## Apex (Aug 11, 2014)

Thank you for the Grammar lesson blue...It's not the grammar that kills it, it's the story telling. Grammar can be corrected. Story telling has to be learned. Perhaps you are of the different nature I was speaking. Do you really think it's good to pat someone on the back who is going the wrong way?


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## InstituteMan (Aug 11, 2014)

Apex said:


> Thank you for the Grammar lesson blue...It's not the grammar that kills it, it's the story telling. Grammar can be corrected. Story telling has to be learned. Perhaps you are of the different nature I was speaking. Do you really think it's good to pat someone on the back who is going the wrong way?



I have often found that a nudge in the right direction works better when it comes with a pat on the back.


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## Apex (Aug 11, 2014)

Thanks for the tip Dan, aka Sam...good luck with Quill. No agent needed, no advance...that puts that publisher high on the scales, and they have the rights to your book. I'm sure you wrote a good book. Why didn't you seek out an agent, and have it published with a standard publisher...the four big ones are in New York City.


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## Sam (Aug 11, 2014)

Apex said:


> Story telling has to be learned.



Storytelling is rooted in imagination. You either have imagination or you don't. You can't learn it.


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## Sam (Aug 11, 2014)

Apex said:


> Thanks for the tip Dan, aka Sam...good luck with Quill. No agent needed, no advance...that puts that publisher high on the scales, and they have the rights to your book. I'm sure you wrote a good book. Why didn't you seek out an agent, and have it published with a standard publisher...the four big ones are in New York City.



Please give me a link to your novel published by one of the four 'big ones' in New York City and I'll be sure to give it a read.


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## Apex (Aug 11, 2014)

Sam said:


> Storytelling is rooted in imagination. You either have imagination or you don't. You can't learn it.



You are in error Dan...imagination can be learned. Anyone who wants to write, can develope a great imagination, and learn all the tricks to building a good story. As to my having a NY Publisher. I have not been seeking an agent yet. When I do, it won't be Quill, Publish America, or any of the other go no place publishers.(sic)


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## Plasticweld (Aug 11, 2014)

_*Bilston Blue Quote*_
*for where better to learn to write than amongst writers (and readers) of all levels of ability and who all harbour different aims and ambitions for their written output. Some want to go places with the craft, publish novels, appear in highly respected journals, etc., whilst for others it's a hobby, a pastime, something to do after work in order to relax. Some are aiming for improvement all the time and are their own worst critic, others aren't too fussed about improvement or betterment, only that they get something down when they have the time. I think, when you've been around the forum for a while, you'll get to know which writers fall into which category, and it'll become easier to design your critique to suit its recipient. Picking faults out is what writers want, but there's a way to do it, and however many faults there are, there can always be room for praise in one area or another, maybe to soften the blow of your harshest comments. Also, a writers time = a writer's time

*

This is so true, that it can only be appreciated by someone who has been here awhile.   The first stories I told on this forum where good stories, told poorly because  of my lack of skills.  Different members here took the time to help me with the skills I needed, to be able to learn how to write better.  I went back and re-read some of my first posts and realized how easy everyone was with their advice.  I was doing so many things wrong that it would have been over the top to pick out every mistake I made.  The critiques, gave me a few suggestions and lots of encouragement.  I appreciate that and know that it is the right way to help someone.


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## Sam (Aug 11, 2014)

> You are in error Dan...imagination can be learned. Anyone who wants to  write, can develope a great imagination, and learn all the tricks to  building a good story. As to my having a NY Publisher. I have not been  seeking an agent yet. When I do, it won't be Quill, Publish America, or  any of the other go no place publishers.(sic)



Best of luck with that.


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## InstituteMan (Aug 11, 2014)

Sam said:


> Storytelling is rooted in imagination. You either have imagination or you don't. You can't learn it.



I am not sure that I agree that no one can learn imagination, at least if learning includes developing unknown latent abilities, but . . . 



Apex said:


> You are in error Dan...imagination can be learned. Anyone who wants to write, can develope a great imagination, and learn all the tricks to building a good story.



I have known plenty of folks unable to develop a "great" imagination. At the "great" level, it seems to me that you've got the raw materials or you don't.


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## Schrody (Aug 11, 2014)

Um, what happened here? You go for a five minutes... OP's post is mixed up, and I don't get why are you fighting? :-s


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## ppsage (Aug 11, 2014)

Is this thread in the wrong forum? Isn't the workshop for critique, not discussion?


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## Schrody (Aug 11, 2014)

ppsage said:


> Is this thread in the wrong forum? Isn't the workshop for critique, not discussion?



I thought so, until now :-k


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## InstituteMan (Aug 11, 2014)

Schrody said:


> Um, what happened here? You go for a five minutes... OP's post is mixed up, and I don't get why are you fighting? :-s





ppsage said:


> Is this thread in the wrong forum? Isn't the workshop for critique, not discussion?





Schrody said:


> I thought so, until now :-k



You pretty much had to be there. This shall long be legendary in the WF, all the more so because so few saw it first hand.

Or, you know, not.


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## Schrody (Aug 11, 2014)

That's it Institute, rub it in :mrgreen: Care to explain?


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## InstituteMan (Aug 11, 2014)

Schrody said:


> That's it Institute, rub it in :mrgreen: Care to explain?



I PMed ya, Schrody.


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## Schrody (Aug 11, 2014)

InstituteMan said:


> I PMed ya, Schrody.



I saw. Thanks


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## Bishop (Aug 12, 2014)

Man, wish I had been here for this.

Sounded like good drama.


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## Schrody (Aug 12, 2014)

Bishop said:


> Man, wish I had been here for this.
> 
> Sounded like good drama.



Me too


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## No Cat No Cradle (Aug 12, 2014)

I don't want to be 'that guy', but gauging a few of his responses, I had a feeling that he would blow up in such a way. I personally don't get such an outburst but my mind instantly goes to 'troll' which never made sense to me. Though humans are weird and random like that. Such is life.


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## Morkonan (Aug 12, 2014)

Golly... I missed everything yesterday. Robin Williams dying, now this...

In an effort to add something of substance, I'll address the thread-title. ("Substance Unidentified")

A work posted in the Writer's Workshop is for critique. "Critique" does not have to be negative, by the way. If someone likes the work, they're welcome to voice their enthusiastic opinion. There's nothing wrong with positive feedback. 

I do have one pet-peeve, though: I dislike "general praise" just as much as I wouldn't like "general scorn." In my opinion, a "critique" reflects on the one who posted it and the author has pulled down their literal pants so you can get a look... They usually want specifics and they've made themselves vulnerable in order to get specific criticism. That sort of trust should be repaid in kind by posting well-reasoned specific criticism, even if it's positive! So, if one likes something, one should comment on it directly. Quoting passages and phrases is a great help - It lets the author know exactly what they did right. Likewise, dissecting specific passages is often necessary in order to give meaningful criticism, positive or negative. It's not that there's anything implicitly wrong in general praise or criticism, but the author probably deserves more than that from us. If we want the interaction to be fruitful, we owe it to the vulnerable author to give meaningful feedback. After all, any meaningful feedback is always a positive thing.


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## Ethan (Aug 12, 2014)

“A man who is not born with the novel-writing gift has a troublesome time of it when he tries to build a novel. I know this from experience. He has no clear idea of his story; in fact he has no story. He merely has some people in his mind, and an incident or two, also a locality, and he trusts he can plunge those people into those incidents with interesting results. So he goes to work. To write a novel? No–that is a thought which comes later; in the beginning he is only proposing to tell a little tale, a very little tale, a six-page tale. But as it is a tale which he is not acquainted with, and can only find out what it is by listening as it goes along telling itself, it is more than apt to go on and on and on till it spreads itself into a book. 
Samuel Clemens.


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## Morkonan (Aug 12, 2014)

“I don't think anybody can teach anybody anything. I think that you  learn it, but the young writer that is as I say demon-driven and wants  to learn and has got to write, he don't know why, he will learn from  almost any source that he finds. He will learn from older people who are  not writers, he will learn from writers, but he learns it -- you can't  teach it.”   ―     William Faulkner


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## Bishop (Aug 12, 2014)

Apex, out of curiosity I tried to look back at some of your posts to see what kinds of things you mean. I found two quotes that I wanted to comment on:

*Here* you wrote this:



> Spend your free time learning to write...not writing. When you have ideas for a story, write then down in your note book. Still, do not start writing a story...just make notes. Give yourself two years to learn how to write, and how the publishing industry works.




How does one learn to write without practicing the craft? I grant you that reading is around 50% of the battle; after all, writing without reading is like being a musician without listening to music, but to say that someone should learn how to write without writing... that seems strange. I get that people can study language and craft from a distance, but the fastest way to get skill in anything is practice. Yes, there are mechanics of writing, particularly grammar, that must be studied and understood, but those things can come to be understood through practice of the craft itself. In fact, the best learning is done when it involves and interests the student... what better way to do that than by letting them craft their own tales? And what better way to learn than by writing a work, editing it, and getting critique? Agreed, critiques should better the writer's skill, not coddle them, but we as critiquers and fellow writers have a duty to be clear and direct in what we think is not working. We need to be specific, cite examples, say why, correct grammar... all of those things, in depth, and give a deep understanding that this is our stance and opinion on the work, not necessarily an inextinguishable truth. Then they grow as a writer, and do so within the craft, not growing to resent it through repetitive study of "how to write" schlock put out by publishing industry drop outs.

Next, you wrote this *here*: 




> I knew an retired (retarded) English teacher who wanted to be a writer. The worst thing that ever happened to her, she got her panty hoses stuck in her ass on a hot summer day.





> For five years I told her, “You have to have bad shit in your life to be a good writer.”
> She spent two years trying to rewrite something like, “Gone with the wind.” A heavy sex scene on page fifty was a clean cotton sheet between two people, and a think blanket over the top of them. The big climax for these two characters was the fireworks outside their window ten miles away. I told her she should go to Vegas for two weeks, get a pimp with a had habit, and roll in the dirt of humanity.
> She said I was a sick puppy… “Yes,” I replied, “now your getting it. You have to have a load of shit on your back to be a good writer.”
> Welcome to a world few understand Anne...




Firstly, what made her retarded, exactly? Next, if you so fervently disagreed with her, why did you speak with her for five years? Next--do you really think that the hyperbole of "panty hoses stuck in her ass" was either true or necessary? I agree with you about one point: Experience aids writing. But please take heed to that middle word: aids. Experience is not writing. It aids it. "You have to have a load of shit on your back to be a good writer" is simply untrue. I know of a lot of great writers who have pretty standard, normal lives. I also know a couple of people whose lives are absolute shit and, though they try, are terrible writers (albeit, improving daily).

I myself have had a pretty sheltered life. I'm a suburban kid, grew up with stable and loving parents, an Irish big brother that I still get in fist fights with, and a whole lot of hours wasted playing video games and reading sci fi. But I'm a good writer. Not a great writer. Certainly not a perfect writer (no one is), but I'm a competent writer. I know because I've seen my own growth, I've had people who have read my work confirm it (while telling me where I can improve) and I continue to write everyday and grow. And I do not have a pimp with a bad habit. I have experienced family deaths. I've wrestled with depression, and heartache. I've seen a man get shot. But I'm still nowhere near the levels of tortured you apparently want of a writer. Yet here I am... writing.


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## Apex (Aug 12, 2014)

Bishop said:


> Apex, out of curiosity I tried to look back at some of your posts to see what kinds of things you mean. I found two quotes that I wanted to comment on:
> 
> *Here* you wrote this:
> 
> ...




I gave you my reply via PM.


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## Schrody (Aug 12, 2014)

Do not feed the troll


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## Deleted member 56686 (Aug 12, 2014)

What do trolls eat anyway?


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## Schrody (Aug 12, 2014)

mrmustard615 said:


> What do trolls eat anyway?



I don't know. 

Some people pointed to me I might be wrong for calling Apex a troll. So, my dear, if you have good intentions, I hereby want to say I'm sorry I called you like that and I'm sorry I misjudged you. If you have good intentions


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## Apex (Aug 12, 2014)

Schrody said:


> I don't know.
> 
> Some people pointed to me I might be wrong for calling Apex a troll. So, my dear, if you have good intentions, I hereby want to say I'm sorry I called you like that and I'm sorry I misjudged you. If you have good intentions



Thank you for the sorry. Before you call a person you don't even know a troll, you should first have a reason. Before you judge my intentions, good, or bad, you should first read my comments to writers on this forum. After, if in your young wisdom deem me a troll...I'll leave the fucking forum.


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## Bishop (Aug 12, 2014)

Yeah, judging by the nonsensical responses to the PMs I returned to you, I'd say you're a troll.

My two cents anyway. *Shrug*


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## No Cat No Cradle (Aug 12, 2014)

Apex said:


> Thank you for the sorry. Before you call a person you don't even know a troll, you should first have a reason. Before you judge my intentions, good, or bad, you should first read my comments to writers on this forum. After, if in your young wisdom deem me a troll...I'll leave the fucking forum.



It might not be my place to say and I mean this in a civil manner but maybe if you didn't seem so aggressive to people they wouldn't have a reason to claim such. Negative attitudes tend to create unfavorable images because it should be in everyone's best interest to create a civil environment. If we can get that out of the way right away then we can clear up the issue.


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## Plasticweld (Aug 12, 2014)

Apex, your attitude is horrible, your demeanor no better, I kind of expected more from you.  I do not understand how someone who is as bright as you fail to see the obvious.


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## popsprocket (Aug 12, 2014)

I am closing this thread for obvious reasons. Personal attacks will not be tolerated.


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