# Professional Pay?



## WordVector (Jun 27, 2012)

So I was  recently watching a really cool youtube video with a bunch of old Kurt Vonnegut interviews (circa 70s or 80s it seemed), and he painted a very dystopian future for writers, which I think has come true entirely. 

I am a new writer (I've been sending stuff to publishers since the end of March), and haven't been published yet. When I first read what was considered "professional pay" for scifi/fantasy I thought, "Wow! 5 cents a words, that's awesome, that's like 100-400 dollars per story!".  What Mr. Vonnegut said in the video made me reflect bitterly upon that memory.

Kurt said, that while he was working at GE, people loved short stories, and EVERY magazine (just about) published short fiction. It was actually in demand. Then, he went on to say that he wrote a story, Saturday evening post bought it, and paid him "1/8 of what General Electric payed me all year." 

I understand that the short fiction market has _far_ less readers now than it did then, which is largely why the standard rate of professional pay is so low. But why does the SFWA and these magazines have the indecency to call such pay _professional?_

While thinking about this, I decided to do some math. If professional pay was _doubled_, to earn 50,000 a year writing short fiction a writer would need to not only write, but publish, no less than 500,000 words of fiction a year. If you sold two short stories a month at an average of 3000 words a story (which, considering response times if nothing else, is quite the undertaking) you would earn a measly 3600 dollars a year at current rates. 

I am not attempting to organize some kind of movement for quadrupling professional pay in all of the famous magazines out there (although that would be nice), because I'm well aware that the demand for short stories from readers is too slim at this time. What I wish to do is call for outrage that anyone (the SFWA no less) would call such pay "professional." 

While researching, I was unable to find how much Vonnegut made at GE in 1950. However, I did find the average hourly pay for a bunch of different jobs at the time. The average yearly wage then was (very roughly) about $3000-3400. So if Vonnegut made 1/8 of 3200, that's $400 for his first story. In 1950. It was around 5000 words, and that's about _eight cents _a word! Now, the average salary is literally ten times what it was then (33,000), and "professional" pay has plummeted three freakin' cents a word?

Ain't That a Kick In the Head.


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## grant-g (Jun 27, 2012)

Yeah, i think its a supply/demand problem, in a way.  supply is somewhat in flux, not in the sense that there are many more writers writing many more stories but there are many more outlets.  What it took to be a publisher in the 70's is not necessary anymore.  Anybody can throw up a website.  It kind of sucks.  Publishing has been hindered by the world wide web.  Journalism has suffered due to the Internet devaluing material.  The kindle/nook publishing tools are interesting.  I see authors on a large scale buying into the process.  while it might be neat, or i'm sure if done right it can be very satisfying, but they are feeding their own death.  Amazon flat out targets publishing, they want to be destroy it.  I really like how different books really are from each other.  You can read one and go to another and the paper is different and the typeface, subtle variations that make a difference when reading them.  I got a book i like to read called _Soul of a Leader_ by Waller P. Newell.  The paper they use is really soft, I'm not sure what kind it is but if you close the book it makes a sound sort of like closing a jewelry box.


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## garza (Jun 27, 2012)

If you are paid to write, then you are a professional and whatever you make is professional pay. My first articles for the local newspapers were paid for by the word plus an average of five dollars for a picture to go with the article. Word count was never exact. I was actually paid by the column inch but it worked out to about three cents a word and a typical article with picture made me between 20 and 25 dollars. That was in 1954. When I started university in 1956 I had the money for my first year in the bank. That probably could not be done today.


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## WordVector (Jun 28, 2012)

According to dictionary.com, professional both includes people who use a skill to make a living, and just for personal gain. However, I don't really think that's how anyone views the word. I've made 25 dollars playing bass in the last month, and I would be laughed at if I claimed that I was a professional musician, despite it _technical_ being true by definition. I just think it's extremely sad that professional pay has not frozen, but actually lowered by an enormous amount (considering inflation).


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## garza (Jun 28, 2012)

It hasn't lowered, so far as I know. I'm not paid by the word or by the inch today, but what I earn for what I write has kept well ahead of the rate of inflation over the past sixty years.

The same is true of the cost of university. The price to matriculate at a decent school keeps many away from getting the king of education they deserve.

Also, the kinds of opportunity available when I was a teen-ager don't exist today, or at least are not as easily available as they were in the fifties. In those days every town had a newspaper that was a going concern, and any kid with spunk and the ability to write a decent sentence could rise from delivery boy to reporter. One had to be a bit pushy, 'tis true. I've never been known to be overly shy, and I've always been willing to push open doors while others stood back and waited to be invited.


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## WordVector (Jun 28, 2012)

Sorry, I forgot to re-clarify. When I say professional pay has lowered, I mean pay for short fiction, for Scifi/fantasy/horror writers. You're definitely right about the reporter thing, though. People seem to care more about credentials than your writing, sometimes.


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## Terry D (Jun 28, 2012)

As far as fiction writing goes, it helps to remember that those who actually make their living writing fiction have a track record of publication and will receive higher pay rates than part-time, and lesser known writers.  You break-in at five cents/word, but once you are established the pay scale is significantly higher.


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## bazz cargo (Jul 1, 2012)

Amateur; for fun. Semi-pro; for pin-money. Professional; negotiate your own terms. 
The fact/fiction writer's divide is misleading. Reportage will support a family. Fiction will either lead to starvation or, with Film/TV deals to unbelievable wealth.


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## WordVector (Jul 1, 2012)

bazz cargo said:


> Amateur; for fun. Semi-pro; for pin-money. Professional; negotiate your own terms.
> The fact/fiction writer's divide is misleading. Reportage will support a family. Fiction will either lead to starvation or, with Film/TV deals to unbelievable wealth.



That's a good summary of my first five paragrahs, ha.


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## Cran (Aug 4, 2012)

There is no set standard for remuneration in professional writing, either globally or within any country. 

Outside of writing for the Arts (fiction, plays, screenplays, lyrics, and so on), many forms of professional writing (technical, academic, PR, and others) are subsets of the duties of the position, and therefore covered by the salary, stipend, or contract agreement rather than by individual piece of writing produced. 

Journalism, which can be salaried, contractual, or freelance (often within the same company), is probably the most fractured and varied form of professional writing when it comes to assessing its payment standards. 

That said, a good and reliable writer can make a living in any of these areas of professional writing, once that writer knows where to look, who to approach, and how to do the job expected.

_*ETA:* Just realised this is posted in Non Fiction, and I'm wondering whether we were supposed to be addressing the piece as written, rather than engaging the content? 

You know, pointing out things like it should be [far fewer] when referring to a number ...
_


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## garza (Aug 4, 2012)

Cran - That's a good summation of the situation regarding remuneration for the writer's avocation.


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## Cran (Aug 4, 2012)

garza said:


> Cran - That's a good summation of the situation regarding remuneration for the writer's avocation.



Thanks *garza*. It helps that we both have the experience of working in the field before, and during, this internet media revolution. 

_(Oops, gotta go - pensioner neighbour needs help)

ETA: (sorted, and all good). 
_


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## Kyle R (Aug 4, 2012)

Each publication pays differently. My current focus is on Literary magazines with the biggest circulations, as they pay pretty prolifically per piece (how's that for alliteration?).

The drawback, of course, is that the higher paying short story publications are much harder to get into. But I kind of like that. Mmm, the taste of competition! *licks lips* 

http://www.duotrope.com/ is a publications listing and search engine that can guide the way for you (shows how much each publication pays, too).


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