# I Will Edit Your Manuscript for Free



## Edward G (Jul 3, 2012)

There are absolutely no strings attached, and I'm not selling anything. I'm just putting the offer out there, because I'm trying to move into freelance editing and I need the experience. I need to dive in and and see how the process is going to go. All I ask is that you take it as far as you can (first draft, revision, that sort of thing).

It can be a novel or a short story. I'd like to do a few of each, actually. I intend to do both a story edit and a copy edit, so you get the full deal. 
The only thing I'm getting out of this is experience, and if you like the edit I do for you, then send me an e-mail afterward telling me how much you liked it, and I can use that at some later date as a plug.

That's the deal. I hope there are some takers. PM me if you're interested.

Sincerely,

Edward :book:


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## HooktonFonnix (Jul 3, 2012)

Sounds like a good deal. I might just hit you up once I'm done with this draft on my WIP.


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## Kyle R (Jul 3, 2012)

You can practice in the Writer's Workshop, and the Fiction boards, too! There are many members seeking critiques on their works. :welcoming:


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## Sam (Jul 3, 2012)

_Admin note: Just a warning that WF does not encourage the practice of exchanging private information (e-mails, phone numbers, addresses) between members. _


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## Edward G (Jul 3, 2012)

KyleColorado said:


> You can practice in the Writer's Workshop, and the Fiction boards, too! There are many members seeking critiques on their works. :welcoming:



Yes, and I've looked through there, but I'm looking to edit something for someone who's interested in either sending that MS off to an agent or to a publisher. I don't think we have to exchange personal information, per se, other than e-mail addresses, I suppose. I don't want to edit an unfinished WIP, and I don't want to teach creative writing to someone; I just want to provide a professional edit (for free at this point.).

I know how to edit, and I've done a lot of that, and I review books on my website, I'm actually more interested in building my process--that's what I'd be getting out of this.


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## Jon M (Jul 3, 2012)

Edward G said:


> Yes, and I've looked through there, but I'm looking to edit something for someone who's interested in either sending that MS off to an agent or to a publisher.


That's kind of what the Workshop is there for. 

I dunno, man. Sending off a completed manuscript to some random dude on the interwebz doesn't quite pass the smell test for me.


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## HooktonFonnix (Jul 3, 2012)

Jon M said:


> That's kind of what the Workshop is there for.
> 
> I dunno, man. Sending off a completed manuscript to some random dude on the interwebz doesn't quite pass the smell test for me.



Well, when you put it like that...


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## Cefor (Jul 3, 2012)

Jon M said:


> That's kind of what the Workshop is there for.
> 
> I dunno, man. Sending off a completed manuscript to some random dude on the interwebz...



...for free doesn't pass the smell test. It's hard to trust someone with something you've worked hard over.

Sorry, man  But, offering critiques and reviews on here is going to help you improve your editing style as it is.


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## Edward G (Jul 3, 2012)

Jon M said:


> That's kind of what the Workshop is there for.
> 
> I dunno, man. Sending off a completed manuscript to some random dude on the interwebz doesn't quite pass the smell test for me.





HooktonFonnix said:


> Well, when you put it like that...





Cefor said:


> ...for free doesn't pass the smell test. It's hard to trust someone with something you've worked hard over.
> 
> Sorry, man  But, offering critiques and reviews on here is going to help you improve your editing style as it is.



No problem. And actually, I suppose this is the first experience I am having, that is that people may not trust to send their manuscript to you. But I'm a bit baffled about that.

1. You would send it to unknown agents and editors.

2. You would post it online where every stranger can see it and comment on it, including me.

3. And how would you ever get it edited, if you didn't send it out? Normally, you'd have to pay up front as well.

And maybe I got my target client wrong: I suppose I would actually be looking to work with those who want to self-publish or enter a contest or something, because those are the folks who really need to be edited.

In the future I intend to charge for it. I suppose $.50 a page for a story edit, and then probably something like $.25 a page for a copyedit. But I'm not ready to do that yet, because for all I know, I may not be able to do the job. That's what I'm trying to find out. I suppose there'd have to be some minimum amount for short stories.

You could think I might steal your story and publish it myself, but if I did, you'd make out better than if I didn't. Any lawyer would take your case and sue me and the publisher, and you'd get any money I got, plus I'd go to jail, and you'd end up published. If I stole your manuscript and did that, I'd be doing all the work of getting it published for you. Why would I want to do that?

Now, I'm not trying to convince you to send me a manuscript, I'm just hoping to explore these issues with you, because like I said, this is in itself my first experience with trying to become a freelance editor.

I appreciate any comments.


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## Cefor (Jul 3, 2012)

Edward G said:


> 1. You would send it to unknown agents and editors.
> 
> 2. You would post it on line where every stranger can see it and comment on it.
> 
> 3. How would you ever get it edited?



I think the thing with agents and editors is that they have credentials you get to check, and if they work for a reputable company they'll be in the Writer's and Artist's Handbook thingy.

Posting stuff online is hard, but there are forums where one can post material which is blocked from Google and non-members and is automatically deleted - thus saving any issues with pre-publication. If it were stolen and you found out, you would know from where. But, members of this forum are generally a decent bunch and we're all in teh same boat.

I'd give it to people I know in real life to get it edited, especially as I have no money (being a student does that to you, sad face). My dad's always been a great editor, he's the spelling and grammar error finder for me. I have a friend who's especially good at seeing plot holes, character issues, etc. Basically, I have a bunch of people I can use. The only editor I think I'd ever send my work to would be one at a publishing house, asking if he'd accept it for publication. I don't really see why I'd send it to someone to edit just for the sake of editing; that's my job.


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## Potty (Jul 3, 2012)

The problem with sending your work out to a random stranger, is that if they did decide to steal it you have no proof. Using the workshop is a little safer as you have a time and date of when your story was put on the website, and you can use that to dispute any copy right infringement. 

I use an editor, but he has an extensive editing history with a number of well known people, so if he decided to steal my work I could potentially ruin him. I know his real name, bank account details, where he lives and which UK magazine he regularly writes for. I'm not saying you would, but should I send my story to you, the only thing I have to bring you down is a forum name. Most "writing police" would just chalk it up to bad judgement.

While your offer is very generous, you must understand why some of us might be a little suspicious.

Our stories are our babys, and we wouldn't trust a new born with a teenager down the street.


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## star13 (Jul 3, 2012)

I just finished my manuscript and I really need someone to read it. I'm looking more for feedback than editing though. I understand why everyone is so apprehensive. Maybe we could come up with some that would work though.


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## Potty (Jul 3, 2012)

> I just finished my manuscript and I really need someone to read it. I'm looking more for feedback than editing though. I understand why everyone is so apprehensive. Maybe we could come up with some that would work though.



While I like to encourage people taking an interest in other peoples work, I feel you would do well to place your story in the workshop. There you can find feedback from several peoples points of view. I have personally learnt a lot from the workshop. As an aprehensive poster (I've been known to delete my own stories out of paranoia) I found it much better than a one person critique and now trust that my stories are safe.


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## ppsage (Jul 3, 2012)

Send him one that's been rejected a lot.


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## Potty (Jul 3, 2012)

ppsage said:


> Send him one that's been rejected a lot.



In which case I suspect he will get more than he bargained for.


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## star13 (Jul 3, 2012)

Unfortunately this is my first novel. As a writer I mostly have done poetry, but I had a story so I wanted to take a crack at. What are the workshops though?


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## Edward G (Jul 4, 2012)

Cefor said:


> I don't really see why I'd send it to someone to edit just for the sake of editing; that's my job.



If a writer is writing for publication, they can’t edit their own work. This is not a weakness on the part of the writer, it’s just a fact of how the human mind works. Stephen King has an editor; the 2011 winner of the Pulitzer Prize for fiction, Jennifer Egan (“A Visit from the Goon Squad”) had an editor for that work. A story intended for publication, has to have an editor somewhere in the chain.

And not just any editor. You have to have an editor who’s objective and separated relationally from the writer. Friends and family will never tell you that your work stinks. They won’t even tell you that it isn’t working—and they probably can’t see the fix, even if they are willing to be honest. A good editor can’t write your story, but he or she can see what you’ve done and make insightful suggestions based on what typically works and doesn’t work.

And when it comes to copyediting, forget it. You will never be able to know whether every time you used the word “here” that it was the right form or if you ever spelled “it’s” when you meant, “its.”



Potty said:


> The problem with sending your work out to a random stranger, is that if they did decide to steal it you have no proof. Using the workshop is a little safer as you have a time and date of when your story was put on the website, and you can use that to dispute any copy right infringement.
> 
> I use an editor, but he has an extensive editing history with a number of well known people, so if he decided to steal my work I could potentially ruin him. I know his real name, bank account details, where he lives and which UK magazine he regularly writes for. I'm not saying you would, but should I send my story to you, the only thing I have to bring you down is a forum name. Most "writing police" would just chalk it up to bad judgement.



You know your editor’s bank account details? I must admit, I wouldn’t tell you that information. However, you would know my name, my address and my phone number and Facebook page and website, etc. 

And l completely understand the paranoia about releasing unpublished work to anyone; however, you can’t apply that to an editor, or you won’t have an edit of your work. That would be like a musician who refuses to go to a recording studio lest the technicians hear the music before it is released.

And for the record, I want to point out two things you did in your response: You didn’t hyphenate “well–known” and you misspelled “judgment.” You also used a comma to separate a verb from its object between “random stranger” and “is that if…” Those are not typos. Those are errors in your knowledge. And, believe me, I have done the same thing, and every single writer I know does the same thing. There’s nothing you can do about it. That’s why an outside objective editor is necessary. 



> While your offer is very generous, you must understand why some of us might be a little suspicious.
> 
> Our stories are our babys, and we wouldn't trust a new born with a teenager down the street.



Oh yeah, I understand. And I suppose the only way to overcome it is to get set up (website-wise) and just show people I’m not going anywhere.



star13 said:


> I just finished my manuscript and I really need someone to read it. I'm looking more for feedback than editing though. I understand why everyone is so apprehensive. Maybe we could come up with some that would work though.



What you need is a beta read. It may not even be time for a story edit or copy edit at this stage of your work. You’re feeling a lack of confidence about this particular story and you want to bounce it off someone who will look at it objectively. I would be willing to do that.



ppsage said:


> Send him one that's been rejected a lot.



That sounds like a good idea, but if I do the edit, I want the credit. Let me use a couple of pages from it to show how I do my thing, like an illustration on my someday website.


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## shadowwalker (Jul 4, 2012)

My biggest concern would be your credentials - ie, I don't know what they are. Have you done any critiques here or on other writers' sites? Have you been employed as an editor anywhere?

I have two betas; I've worked with them for several years. I 'met' them online in a writing community, watched how they commented on other works, how they wrote - in other words, I had the opportunity to see just what they knew and what they didn't (and between them, there isn't much they don't catch - dammit!). But I have no idea who you are, professionally speaking.


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## Chaeronia (Jul 4, 2012)

Edward G said:


> And not just any editor. You have to have an editor who’s objective and separated relationally from the writer. Friends and family will never tell you that your work stinks.



A family member or friend versed in giving critiques could be as analytical, as constructive, and as free from emotion as an editor. Not always, not even usually, but sometimes. So, please, enough of the 'never'.



Edward G said:


> They won’t even tell you that it isn’t working—and they probably can’t see the fix, even if they are willing to be honest.



And you know this how? 



Edward G said:


> And when it comes to copyediting, forget it. You will never be able to know whether every time you used the word “here” that it was the right form or if you ever spelled “it’s” when you meant, “its.”



Again, you know this how? 

You are too fond of telling people what will never be able to happen. 



Edward G said:


> And for the record, I want to point out two things you did in your response: You didn’t hyphenate “well–known” and you misspelled “judgment.” You also used a comma to separate a verb from its object between “random stranger” and “is that if…” Those are not typos. Those are errors in your knowledge. And, believe me, I have done the same thing, and every single writer I know does the same thing. There’s nothing you can do about it. That’s why an outside objective editor is necessary.



An objective editor is necessary, I agree, and I wish you all the best in your future endeavours. Your handle on grammar appears sound. But a suggestion: tone down the absolutism.

'Judgement', by the way, is the correct UK spelling. You also used inconsistent variants of 'copyediting' and 'copy edit'. Use one and stick with it.


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## Cefor (Jul 4, 2012)

I think that you're trying too hard to tell us we need editors. Also, now you're coming across as someone I may not want to work with, to be perfectly honest with you. Plus, you are American. I'm British, so I wouldn't want an American editing my work in any case.

You don't know my family, so you have no idea how objective they can and cannot be. I'll tell you now that my dad is a great critic purely because he would only want me to show my best to the public, so why would he say something's good if it isn't?

You're going about this completely the wrong way, mate.


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## Kyle R (Jul 4, 2012)

shadowwalker said:


> My biggest concern would be your credentials - ie, I don't know what they are. Have you done any critiques here or on other writers' sites? Have you been employed as an editor anywhere?
> 
> ...
> 
> But I have no idea who you are, professionally speaking.



Ironically, that seems to be the purpose of this thread. He's mentioned a few times that what he's seeking are testimonials in exchange for his editing. It's almost a catch-22. 


I can understand your perspective, Edward, and I think you've been a bit unfairly criticized here. But, I also see the reasoning behind those who seem wary of your offer. You might want to provide some critiques on this site to develop a name for yourself first, so to speak. That seems to be the best route here.

There is a "Star Critter" award for members who give excellent critiques. Once you have developed a reputation for being a quality reviewer, I'm sure your request for manuscripts to edit will be received more favorably.

:encouragement:


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## Edward G (Jul 4, 2012)

shadowwalker said:


> My biggest concern would be your credentials - ie, I don't know what they are. Have you done any critiques here or on other writers' sites? Have you been employed as an editor anywhere?
> 
> I have two betas; I've worked with them for several years. I 'met' them online in a writing community, watched how they commented on other works, how they wrote - in other words, I had the opportunity to see just what they knew and what they didn't (and between them, there isn't much they don't catch - dammit!). But I have no idea who you are, professionally speaking.



That's a good point. I should probably do critiques here online like in the workshops, at least then people would have a chance to see how I do things.


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## Potty (Jul 4, 2012)

Yes, I think Kyle has hit the nail on the head. When you've become better known to other members they may be more inclined to send you some work. For instance, I know Kyle better than I did when I joined, I know him to be a trust worthy muppe-- member. I would quite happily send him my work to look at. 

So yea, get yourself out there!


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## Kyle R (Jul 4, 2012)

Muppet?! Why I oughtta--!! *shakes fist*


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## Sunny (Jul 4, 2012)

Potty said:


> Yes, I think Kyle has hit the nail on the head. When you've become better known to other members they may be more inclined to send you some work. For instance, I know Kyle better than I did when I joined, I know him to be a trust worthy muppe-- member. I would quite happily send him my work to look at.
> 
> So yea, get yourself out there!


Ewwww. You'd trust _Kyyyyle_ with your work? What is up with that? I wouldn't trust him with my chocolate chunk cookie recipe! ;0) 

Mah-hah!


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## JosephB (Jul 4, 2012)

I can edit my own manuscript. Will you cut my lawn?


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## Baron (Jul 4, 2012)

I misread the title as "I will eat your manuscript for free".  I think I need a coffee.


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## Sunny (Jul 4, 2012)

^ ahhh that was funny!


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## Edward G (Jul 4, 2012)

Chaeronia said:


> A family member or friend versed in giving critiques could be as analytical, as constructive, and as free from emotion as an editor. Not always, not even usually, but sometimes. So, please, enough of the 'never'.



Anything is possible, I suppose. But individuality in art seems to move in a kind of continuum, on the one hand you have sculpture and painting where no one but the artist is involved from start to finish, then you have like poetry, where very little if any editing is ever done to it, then you have the short story where a little bit is needed, then novels where it truly becomes a team effort between the writer, editor, and publisher. Eventually, you have film, which is a completely collaborative effort by many people.

But, anything is possible. It is possible a person will have a qualified family member who will be honest with them about their work, and that’s good for them, isn’t it?



> And you know this how?
> Again, you know this how?
> You are too fond of telling people what will never be able to happen.



Through my hard-learned experience, that’s how.  And, yes, the word “never” is hyperbole. Anything is possible.



> An objective editor is necessary, I agree, and I wish you all the best in your future endeavours. Your handle on grammar appears sound. But a suggestion: tone down the absolutism.



Man, I am offering to edit someone’s novel for free. If that isn’t something you need, just pass on it. If you think I want to run off to China with your stolen work and publish it, just pass on it. If you think your husband or wife can do the job cheaper (which is impossible since I’m willing to do it for the experience), then Godspeed to you. My “absolutism” is not really the issue here, is it?



> 'Judgement', by the way, is the correct UK spelling. You also used inconsistent variants of 'copyediting' and 'copy edit'. Use one and stick with it.



Correct, well kind of. I admit there are the two ways of spelling “judgment,” but here’s the thing: What do you think an American agent is going to think if that word shows up in the first five pages of your MS or in your query letter? In the U.S., “judgement” looks misspelled. “Colour” looks British. “Judgement” looks misspelled your observations notwithstanding. As for “copyedit” you’re right. It can be copyedit, copy-edit, or copy edit, but one should stick to one.

But your defensiveness is an issue here, because all writers need an editor, because the editor has an outside view, just as you found my errors and I found yours (or Potty’s  actually). However, many writers are so defensive that they can’t tolerate editing; they see it as a personal judgment against them. A writer should expect an editor to have a lot of things in blue and red on their pages—because that’s what they employed them for. They should accept those marked pages with all the emotion of a parts manager signing for a box of parts from UPS.

But in the beginning, a new writer sees themselves on the pages of their work. Their self-esteem and identity is tied up in how well they can write. Many think if their first draft isn’t good, they are not good, and therefore they won’t even do a revision of their own work. The writing for publication process is as follows:

First draft – Revision – Author’s edit – professional story edit – Author’s acceptance/rejection of corrections – copyedit -- formatting for publication – cover design – distribution and sales.

There is no escaping this. Either the author will do these functions him- or herself when they act as an independent publisher, or other people will do the various steps. Either way, they have to be done right and everyone in the chain has a vested interest in making sure they are done to the best of their ability.



Cefor said:


> I think that you're trying too hard to tell us we need editors.



My friend, if you want to be a successfully published author, that is a need that sells itself.



Chaeronia said:


> A family member or friend versed in giving critiques could be as analytical, as constructive, and as free from emotion as an editor. Not always, not even usually, but sometimes. So, please, enough of the 'never'.



Anything is possible, I suppose. But individuality in art seems to move in a kind of continuum, on the one hand you have sculpture and painting where no one but the artist is involved from start to finish, then you have like poetry, where very little if any editing is ever done to it, then you have the short story where a little bit is needed, then novels where it truly becomes a team effort between the writer, editor, and publisher. Eventually, you have film, which is a completely collaborative effort by many people.

But, anything is possible. It is possible a person will have a qualified family member who will be honest with them about their work, and that’s good for them, isn’t it?



> And you know this how?
> Again, you know this how?
> You are too fond of telling people what will never be able to happen.



Through my hard-learned experience, that’s how.  And, yes, the word “never” is hyperbole. Anything is possible.



> An objective editor is necessary, I agree, and I wish you all the best in your future endeavours. Your handle on grammar appears sound. But a suggestion: tone down the absolutism.



Man, I am offering to edit someone’s novel for free. If that isn’t something you need, just pass on it. If you think I want to run off to China with your stolen work and publish it, just pass on it. If you think your husband or wife can do the job cheaper (which is impossible since I’m willing to do it for the experience), then Godspeed to you. My “absolutism” is not really the issue here, is it?



> 'Judgement', by the way, is the correct UK spelling. You also used inconsistent variants of 'copyediting' and 'copy edit'. Use one and stick with it.



Correct, well kind of. I admit there are the two ways of spelling “judgment,” but here’s the thing: What do you think an American agent is going to think if that word shows up in the first five pages of your MS or in your query letter? In the U.S., “judgement” looks misspelled. “Colour” looks British. “Judgement” looks misspelled your observations notwithstanding. As for “copyedit” you’re right. It can be copyedit, copy-edit, or copy edit, but one should stick to one.

But your defensiveness is an issue here, because all writers need an editor, because the editor has an outside view, just as you found my errors and I found yours (or Potty’s  actually). However, many writers are so defensive that they can’t tolerate editing; they see it as a personal judgment against them. A writer should expect an editor to have a lot of things in blue and red on their pages—because that’s what they employed them for. They should accept those marked pages with all the emotion of a parts manager signing for a box of parts from UPS.

But in the beginning, a new writer sees themselves on the pages of their work. Their self-esteem and identity are tied up in how well they can write. Many think if their first draft isn’t good, they are not good, and therefore they won’t even do a revision of their own work. The writing for publication process is as follows
First draft – Revision – Author’s edit – professional story edit – Author’s acceptance/rejection of corrections – copyedit -- formatting for publication – cover design – distribution and sales.

There is no escaping this. Either the author will do these functions him- or herself when they act as an independent publisher, or other people will do the various steps. Either way, they have to be done right and everyone in the chain has a vested interest in making sure they are done to the best of their ability.


Cefor said:


> I think that you're trying too hard to tell us we need editors.



My friend, if you want to be a successfully published author, that is a need that sells itself.



> Also, now you're coming across as someone I may not want to work with, to be perfectly honest with you. Plus, you are American. I'm British, so I wouldn't want an American editing my work in any case.



Well, Cefor, you’re coming across as someone I don’t want to work with, so what to do? I know! Just follow the immortal advice of former First Lady Nancy Regan: “Just say, no.”

However, I do agree with you on the America vs. British differences—assuming your work will only be viewed by people of British persuasion. However, most novels published in the U.S. are available in Britain and vice versa. I lived in England for eight years (1982-1990) and I am well-versed in British spelling, phrases, idioms, etc. So, that’s not really an issue with me.

But, let’s agree to disagree. You don’t want me to look at your work; I don’t really want to look at it, so it’s all good.



> You don't know my family, so you have no idea how objective they can and cannot be. I'll tell you now that my dad is a great critic purely because he would only want me to show my best to the public, so why would he say something's good if it isn't?



What? I made a general statement about families as objective editors. I was thinking about my wife, specifically. I don’t know your family. I have nothing to do with your family. Why you would take a general comment and apply it specifically and then take offense is beyond me. But that’s your thing, I suppose.



> You're going about this completely the wrong way, mate.



I’m sorry you feel that way. Like Nancy says, “Just say, no.”



KyleColorado said:


> Ironically, that seems to be the purpose of this thread. He's mentioned a few times that what he's seeking are testimonials in exchange for his editing. It's almost a catch-22.



I don’t understand. How so?



> I can understand your perspective, Edward, and I think you've been a bit unfairly criticized here. But, I also see the reasoning behind those who seem wary of your offer. You might want to provide some critiques on this site to develop a name for yourself first, so to speak. That seems to be the best route here.


I agree. I think that’s the best advice.



> There is a "Star Critter" award for members who give excellent critiques. Once you have developed a reputation for being a quality reviewer, I'm sure your request for manuscripts to edit will be received more favorably.



Okay. I think you’re right. I think that’s the route to go. But here’s the thing: If I go that route, then I won’t be doing it for free later on. Right now, there is no reason for anyone to think I’m worth paying. But then there will be. That’s what makes this offer a deal—at this point and time. I get something out of it, and the author gets something out of it. If I already got what I want through the online critiques, then that’s it.

And I think that’s it anyway. I threw this idea out, and for the most part, it’s been rejected. So, I have to go another route, and I think the online critique is the way to go.

Thanks, Kyle. By the way, my wife and I lived at the Air Force Academy for six years (94-2000). A lot of my family still lives in the Ft Collins/Greely area.

Now, before I leave this string for the distant lands of the workshops, I would like to mention my credentials (because others have brought that up):

* B.Sc. in Liberal Arts (17 semester hours in direct writing courses, but the main concentrations being psychology/sociology/education.).

* Self-published 3 books (all in paperback, 2 also in Kindle).

* Actively review popular novels on my website.

* I own Black Spirit Publishing which I hope will take over when I leave nursing someday.

* Very experienced in Kindle formatting, page layout for printing, copyediting, etc., and the publishing business, itself.

That’s probably all I have that’s relevant. Anyway, I'm off to take your advice and do some work in the workshops.


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## Sam (Jul 4, 2012)

If a U.S. agent doesn't know that 'judgement' is the proper spelling of the word (English people created the language first, you know?) I don't think I want to work with said U.S. agent. I was taught to write proper English; to wit, Commonwealth English. I will never (there goes that word again) change my writing because it somehow looks wrong in your (or your agent's) mind.


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## Chaeronia (Jul 4, 2012)

Edward G said:


> Correct, well kind of. I admit there are the two ways of spelling  “judgment,” but here’s the thing: What do you think an American agent is  going to think if that word shows up in the first five pages of your MS  or in your query letter? In the U.S., “judgement” looks misspelled.



Erm, I don't know what said agent would think, and I've no need to care in this instance as it's totally irrelevant to the point at hand: namely, you incorrectly correcting someone's spelling of the word 'judgement'.  That is all I'm concerned with.  No strawmen here, please.



Edward G said:


> Why you would take a general comment and apply it specifically and then  take offense is beyond me. But that’s your thing, I suppose.



I'm guessing Cefor did this because of your blanket assumption - y'know, that 'never' word - that family members and friends cannot be objective.  Ever.  When you appropriate the word 'never' in this way you are effectively saying: 'Cefor, your family members can never be objective.  Don't try and think otherwise.'  It's pretty easy to imagine someone responding in a non-favourable manner to that, don't you think?

Of course I have no issue with editing; it's essential, and I need it more than most. And I'm sure, just from reading your posts on this site, that you'll be very good at it.  I just have an issue with you stating things as fact when they're anything but. 

That said, all the very best and good luck.


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## Nemesis (Jul 4, 2012)

I would very much like my first chapter looked at. If you're up for it that is.


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## Cefor (Jul 4, 2012)

> However, I do agree with you on the America vs. British differences—assuming your work will only be viewed by people of British persuasion. However, most novels published in the U.S. are available in Britain and vice versa. I lived in England for eight years (1982-1990) and I am well-versed in British spelling, phrases, idioms, etc. So, that’s not really an issue with me.



What's so hard about using the find and replace function on certain words, if I really have to change the spellings? But, I think novels that use British or American terms should keep those terms regardless of which side of the Atlantic it's on. Also, I've lived in England for a lot longer (and more recently), would it be fair to say I have a better handle on them?



> What? I made a general statement about families as objective editors. I was thinking about my wife, specifically. I don’t know your family. I have nothing to do with your family. Why you would take a general comment and apply it specifically and then take offense is beyond me. But that’s your thing, I suppose.



You can't understand how your earlier comment was going to be taken by me when it was directly referencing something I'd said in the post preceding it? Should you really edit MSs if you think your comment could have been taken any other way? Claiming that your comment was general is a bit daft when you only mentioned family because of what I said. The fact that you do not know my family means that you can't make that general comment without sounding arrogant. "You never get objective critics within your family or friends, therefore hire me!" 

It's also fun that other people saw what you said in the same light that I did... making that kind of ad hominem argument won't 'win' the discussion. My thing indeed.


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## Edward G (Jul 5, 2012)

Sam W said:


> If a U.S. agent doesn't know that 'judgement' is the proper spelling of the word (English people created the language first, you know?) I don't think I want to work with said U.S. agent. I was taught to write proper English; to wit, Commonwealth English. I will never (there goes that word again) change my writing because it somehow looks wrong in your (or your agent's) mind.



Well, that's your artistic license. If you only want to be read in Britain, that's cool. I'm an American; I immediately thought the word was spelled wrong, but I was wrong. As an editor if I indicated on your MS that the word was mispelled, you would just disregard that. That's how it works.


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## Edward G (Jul 5, 2012)

Noxicity said:


> I would very much like my first chapter looked at. If you're up for it that is.



Ah, but I've run into a snag: An author PM'd me and said he had a finished MS and wanted it read. I was up for it; then it dawned on me: How are we going to exchange it? When I first offered to do this for free, I was thinking an author would e-mail me the Word or .txt file and I would edit it and send it back, but that doesn't work.

On my end, I get it via e-mail, print it out (at my own expense) and make my editing marks--but then I would have to mail it back. There's no other way. I'm not going to take the time to make the corrections in Word, and that would do no good anyway: The author has to look at the suggestions I make in blue, red, and green and decide what he or she wants to do with them. They have to have a physical copy of my edits.

That means sending the MS back to the author in some reliable way--typically Fed Ex or Global Priority with a return receipt. But the aforementioned author lives in another country, and his MS is about the length of a ream of paper (or more). That's quite expensive, and I'm not going to pay for that--not when I can edit someone locally, or perhaps do so in the workshops as previously suggested. If I were a pro, that would all be part of the fee I suppose.

So, I'd love to look at your chapter--but I'm at a loss on how to do that. You could e-mail it to me, and I could read it and give you a beta report, I suppose, but I couldn't edit it. 

Again, this string is already teaching me a lot. #-o

Ed


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## Edward G (Jul 5, 2012)

Cefor said:


> Also, I've lived in England for a lot longer (and more recently), would it be fair to say I have a better handle on them?



Probably. Yes.



> You can't understand how your earlier comment was going to be taken by me when it was directly referencing something I'd said in the post preceding it? Should you really edit MSs if you think your comment could have been taken any other way? Claiming that your comment was general is a bit daft when you only mentioned family because of what I said. The fact that you do not know my family means that you can't make that general comment without sounding arrogant. "You never get objective critics within your family or friends, therefore hire me!"




Yeah...I agree: I don't think I would be the best person to edit your work. So it's not really an issue anymore.




> It's also fun that other people saw what you said in the same light that I did... making that kind of ad hominem argument won't 'win' the discussion. My thing indeed.



I'm not trying to insult you, Cefor, and if it makes you feel better, then I'm glad others have supported your point of view. Good luck in your writing endeavors.

Ed


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## Sam (Jul 5, 2012)

Edward G said:


> Well, that's your artistic license. If you only want to be read in Britain, that's cool. I'm an American; I immediately thought the word was spelled wrong, but I was wrong. As an editor if I indicated on your MS that the word was mispelled, you would just disregard that. That's how it works.



I'm a published author, and I've had quite a few sales in America. My books are set in America, but that doesn't mean that I call a footpath a 'sidewalk' or the boot of a car a 'trunk'. I use my own language; the one I've been using since I was three or four years old. If my publisher wants to reprint the book with American spellings and phrases, that's her prerogative, but in the meantime I'll stay true to who I am.


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## patskywriter (Jul 5, 2012)

Edward G, check out this how-to article on redlining: How to Redline a Document in Microsoft Word - wikiHow. Take the time to study the industry. While some editors still use red pens and correction fluid, others are totally computerized.

I'm a proofreader and editor who has done work in the past for Encyclopaedia Britannica, Contemporary Books, and a few others. I can definitely say from experience that one doesn't charge through a manuscript willy-nilly, changing words and phrases based on absolutes of what seems "right." Good editors keep the voice of the writer in mind while striving to present a manuscript that's both true to the author and grammatically correct. Depending on the level of editing, some changes can be discussed, with the author making the final decision. You must be willing to approach each job as the member of a team. Coming off as argumentative or as a know-it-all could harm your efforts to produce your best work. *Team*work … say it again … *team*work. Yes, there you go. You're welcome.   :smug:


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## Trilby (Jul 5, 2012)

On another writing site that I am a member of, some members do critique fellow members work privately through PMs.


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## Nemesis (Jul 5, 2012)

Edward G said:


> Ah, but I've run into a snag: An author PM'd me and said he had a finished MS and wanted it read. I was up for it; then it dawned on me: How are we going to exchange it? When I first offered to do this for free, I was thinking an author would e-mail me the Word or .txt file and I would edit it and send it back, but that doesn't work.
> 
> On my end, I get it via e-mail, print it out (at my own expense) and make my editing marks--but then I would have to mail it back. There's no other way. I'm not going to take the time to make the corrections in Word, and that would do no good anyway: The author has to look at the suggestions I make in blue, red, and green and decide what he or she wants to do with them. They have to have a physical copy of my edits.
> 
> ...



A basic lookover would do me just fine. I can send it as a word document and you could use the track changes option (if it tickles your fancy) and email it back. I'm fairly certain I've ironed out the majority of grammical errors, now I'm looking for tone and voice and interest.


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## Cefor (Jul 5, 2012)

Edward G said:


> Ah, but I've run into a snag: An author PM'd me and said he had a finished MS and wanted it read. I was up for it; then it dawned on me: How are we going to exchange it? When I first offered to do this for free, I was thinking an author would e-mail me the Word or .txt file and I would edit it and send it back, but that doesn't work.
> 
> On my end, I get it via e-mail, print it out (at my own expense) and make my editing marks--but then I would have to mail it back. There's no other way. I'm not going to take the time to make the corrections in Word, and that would do no good anyway: The author has to look at the suggestions I make in blue, red, and green and decide what he or she wants to do with them. They have to have a physical copy of my edits.
> 
> ...



How about scanning them onto your computer and sending the jpgs to them? Working with a pen on physical copies is sometimes a lot easier than on a computer screen so I can understand why you would want to do that.



> I'm not trying to insult you, Cefor, and if it makes you feel better, then I'm glad others have supported your point of view. Good luck in your writing endeavors.



Okay, well I'm glad we've come to a conclusion on this. Apologies for being so argumentative though, I think I may have been having a bad day. Good luck in any future writing or editing, Ed.

Cefor


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## Newman (Jul 5, 2012)

Edward G said:


> I will edit your manuscript for free.



Wow. Good luck with the business but it's a massive amount of work to do for free.


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## Edward G (Jul 5, 2012)

patskywriter said:


> Edward G, check out this how-toarticle on redlining: How to Redline a Document in Microsoft Word - wikiHow.Take the time to study the industry. While some editors still use red pens andcorrection fluid, others are totally computerized.



I know what you’re talking about, but I’m not doing that work. Do you realize that would require reading perhaps a 400-novel in Word and then using my mouse to highlight this and that. No way. Homie don’t play dat. I am willing to edit; I am not willing to also make the corrections in the document—that’s the writer’s job. Mine would be to simply give my advice on what should or should not be changed.




> I'm a proofreader and editor who has done work in thepast for Encyclopaedia Britannica, Contemporary Books, and a few others. I candefinitely say from experience that one doesn't charge through a manuscriptwilly-nilly, changing words and phrases based on absolutes of what seems"right." Good editors keep the voice of the writer in mind whilestriving to present a manuscript that's both true to the author andgrammatically correct. Depending on the level of editing, some changes can bediscussed, with the author making the final decision. You must be willing toapproach each job as the member of a team. Coming off as argumentative or as aknow-it-all could harm your efforts to produce your best work. Teamwork … sayit again … teamwork. Yes, there you go. You're welcome.



Thank you for your advice; I agree.

In my defense, I don’t think I’ve been argumentative with anyone. If you read through my replies, I think you’ll see that some have argued with me, but I haven’t argued with anyone. 

I would imagine as an editor, my job would be to provide an edit of a manuscript for the author to either accept or reject. Frankly, I wouldn’t even want to know what they accepted or rejected—I would want to get the job done and get it sent back to them. I think that’s what they would want as well. I could be wrong, but that’s how I see it. That’s my part in the team effort.




Noxicity said:


> A basic lookover would do me justfine. I can send it as a word document and you could use the track changesoption (if it tickles your fancy) and email it back. I'm fairly certain I'veironed out the majority of grammical errors, now I'm looking for tone and voiceand interest.



Great. Email it to me. I’ll give you an overall beta report, but I won’t edit it. If you want it edited, I suppose you’re going to have to send me a SASE with the correct postage to return it in. You can still e-mail it to me, but I would have to send it back to you by post. 

(edit: or maybe not, check out what me and Cefor are talking about below.)

The reason I won’t edit it in word, is because it’s too labor intensive, and I have lots of hours at work where I can read and edit, and I don’t want to be staring at a computer screen all night. Not so much of a problem with a short story, but I don’t want to start a precedent I can’t keep up with longer works.

You can find all my contact info through my profile.




Cefor said:


> How about scanning them onto your computer and sending the jpgs to them? Working with a pen on physical copies is sometimes a lot easier than on a computer screen so I can understand why you would want to do that.



That’s a possibility. It would work with short stories and with novels, I could just send the pages each day as I edit them. If Nox sends me her short story, I might try doing that with her.

Hey Noxicity, shall we try doing it that way?




Newman said:


> Wow. Good luck with the business but it's a massive amount of work to do for free.



Thanks, and I hear you.

One novel, a couple of short stories, perhaps, and then I’msetting up a PayPal account. I would only do it for free for the experience so that when I start charging for it, I’m not stumbling around. I know how to edit; I just want to have my process down before diving in professionally. Believe it or not, I don’t want anyone to get shortchanged or receive less than a quality product. I figure I can make all my mistakes on the free stuff.

Obviously, I can’t market paid services in this forum, but I figured I could come here to find the free clients.


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## shadowwalker (Jul 5, 2012)

I think the hardcopy thing is going to be a problem. It would be for me, anyway. Delays in getting online feedback from my betas drove me nuts, so knowing the edits were done and I had to wait for the post office (and no weekend/holiday deliveries, possibility of it getting lost, mis-delivered, yada yada yada) - then not being able to compare screen-to-screen the edits versus what I have... I think you're going to need to come into the computer age fully if this is going to work for you. At least as far as the writer/editor exchange.


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## Nemesis (Jul 5, 2012)

Cetainly I'll go nab your email and send it to you. It's actualy just one chapter (took my seven years to finalize all of my ideas and then to write and be satisfied with the chapter) that is in it's final draft as far as I'm concerned (I know I'm supposed to write the whole thing first but I just can't do it.)


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## Edward G (Jul 5, 2012)

shadowwalker said:


> I think the hardcopy thing is going to be a problem. It would be for me, anyway. Delays in getting online feedback from my betas drove me nuts, so knowing the edits were done and I had to wait for the post office (and no weekend/holiday deliveries, possibility of it getting lost, mis-delivered, yada yada yada) - then not being able to compare screen-to-screen the edits versus what I have... I think you're going to need to come into the computer age fully if this is going to work for you. At least as far as the writer/editor exchange.



That may very well be true. I have a laptop I can use at work, so it's not a problem, I suppose, and I tried it a bit here at home and it was remarkably easy. It's like six of one half a dozen of another. Either you do the computer edit or you have to write stuff out by hand.



Noxicity said:


> Cetainly I'll go nab your email and send it to you. It's actualy just one chapter (took my seven years to finalize all of my ideas and then to write and be satisfied with the chapter) that is in it's final draft as far as I'm concerned (I know I'm supposed to write the whole thing first but I just can't do it.)



Great, and I'm going to try the computer edit with your work and see how it goes--as a test. Who knows, I might love it. In case you can't find it, I'll PM you my e-mail address. I don't know why I didn't do that before.

Ed


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## JosephB (Jul 6, 2012)

Noxicity said:


> Cetainly I'll go nab your email and send it to  you. It's actualy just one chapter (took my seven years to finalize all  of my ideas and then to write and be satisfied with the chapter) that is  in it's final draft as far as I'm concerned (I know I'm supposed to  write the whole thing first but I just can't do it.)



Be sure and let us all know if he follows through and if he knows what he's doing.


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## Nemesis (Jul 6, 2012)

I will consider it


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