# Should you have to stand?



## Curse

Should you have to stand?
By Rachel (curse)

What happens to the kids who don’t say the pledge of allegiance, we don’t usually stand that’s all. We stay seated and watch as other stand to show their respect to the flag that we have none for. To be in trouble for not standing seems like a trivial thing. Sitting in homeroom I do not believe in standing, I do not believe in pledging my allegiance to a country when I am 16. No offence its just the way I think that’s all; I think that I should be able to sit there quietly and not get reprimanded. It’s not as if I am the only one, or that we say the pledge every day. Sometimes the school doesn’t even do it if we don’t have time in the morning. Why is it my fault that because I don’t stand my teacher finds it her god given right to get on my case and involve the principle and get me pulled out of class? I would like to introduce you to the school bi laws book that was revised just last year. I will define the word optional to you: Optional: left to one's choice, not required or mandatory. That’s what I THOUGHT it meant, maybe my teacher and I are reading different dictionaries. My rights will NOT be violated and I will pick this up and give it wings so people know they don’t have to get in trouble for sitting. 

Lets let our voice be heard; we can’t roll over like a dog anymore and let them win. They are wrong and I am going to prove it one way or another with real facts. My rights will not be trampled and my teacher will not get the satisfaction of seeing me stand up and place my hand over my heart. She won’t hear me say that pledge; as little as it may matter to some people. I am fighting back. Should we have to stand for something we don’t believe in? My answer is no, tell me what you think.​


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## smoke_myst

They can't force you to stand. I stood all the time, sure, but that's just me. I've got nothing against those who don't... and frankly don't think it's that big a deal.

And is there any kid in America who honestly actually gives a damn about pledging to the flag? Maybe the kid of a veteran or family of veterans.


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## Mike C

Curse, you have my utmost respect and admiration.


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## sanctuary

Rach, I didn't stand for the pledge today, out of respect for your wishes. My teacher asked me why, and I said "to prove a point". Thumbs up to you.
Sanc


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## cellardoor

my high school didn't do that

but i agree with you


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## Braveheartcrzy

I'm homeschooled now, but for both ninth and tenth grade I never stood for the flag, and even when I did I never said the pledge. I really think there's something wrong with having kids pledge themselves to a flag and country every day through empty words that have been drilled into them all ther lives. Another thing that bothers me is the fact that the pledge contains the words "under god". I'm not religious myself, and I would like to know whatever happened to seperation of church and state.


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## DesolateValkyrie

I know exactly what you mean. I never said the pledge. I didn't see the point. This country is going to hell in a handbasket. It's insane. It's a choice, and no one should make up your mind for you. Good job.

DesolateValkyrie


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## Rosie

I am 21 now, but all the time i went to school i sat durring the pledge. 
I started in kindergarten, even then i didn't know why i should make a pledge to a peice of cloth, or, as the pledge itself says, "to the Republic for which it stands". I love my country, despite it's obvious flaws, but i refuse to make a life long pledge to a country that is ever changing. Our Founding Fathers set this country in such a way that if the people ever feel the need, they can, and should rebel.
It's one of the driving principles behind the Second Amendment. So why should i stand up everyday and mouth words i don't believe in? We all know that the majority of school age children do just that, mouth words.

By sitting you're standing up for something you believe in, you have my respect.


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## Raging_Hopeful

I can understand why people stand... I myself stood for the pledges... but more for the sentimental value of what our country USED to stand for. The ideals and exploration of human freedom that was once our mantra, the basis of our reputation. But now... I am sad for the freedoms we have lost and the hypocrisy that we have gained. Thank you for posting this, and you're right, maybe there is no reason to pledge our alliegence to this country of crap.

Cheers.


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## MrPenguin589

I can tell you that for the first 15 years of my life, I always stood obideintly when they told us to, put my hand over my heart, and said the pledge.
Then, sometime during 10th grade, I realized what the pledge really meant, and that I didn't have to stand or say anything.
Up to that point, I thought of all of the people who didn't stand as unpatriotic jerks, but on that day I realized otherwise.
Sometimes I stand out of respect for our country (which is, after all, my home), and other times I don't.
Since I'm in college now, we haven't said it yet, so I can't really show my opinion of the topic either way in school.

Yeah, that's my two cents, for what it's worth.


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## WrittenEscape

We don't say a pledge in Canada, but I know I sure wouldn't stand for one if we had it.  Good for you!


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## earthman buck

At school Remembrance Day services we are told we must stand. I always found that kind of ironic: stand to honour the memories of those who died for your freedom. The freedom to do as we say.


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## John Mirra

Sure, civil disobedience is fine and all... but what was the point of this essay? I clicked "Should you have to stand?" and got little more than "I don't stand". Pardon me if I'm not acquainted with the rules and I'm terribly out of line subjecting works to scrutiny outside of a specific critique board, or something to that effect, but I don't quite get the point of this, to be blunt.

In any event, I used to remain seated every so often in middle school (only about two months of my life, being that I started homeschooling in early 6th grade), mainly because I was lazy and being forced to stand for freedom seemed trivial (at best) and hypocritical (at its worst). These days, I go to a liberal arts prepatory, and we don't do any of the pledge of allegiance bullshit.


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## zeeby

*How Ironic*

How can everyone be so one-sided with this. I admire you for not standing, but I also think that it isn't wrong or right to stand for the pledge. Either way, whether it's what you originally intended or not, you are showing the freedoms this country bases it's values on, and how strong they can be, yet at the same time showing how those values are twised by the corrupt and the ambitious for their own gains, and their ways to make you follow THEIR lead. It shows the duality of man really. The irony in everything. 


In saying it with pride, we respect those who truely cared, and sometimes sacrificed in the name of freedom, OUR freedoms that we are entitled to by citizenship. Yet sometimes we show that we are not conciously making that pledge, but following blindly a tradition, engrained in the heads of those who could care less about natural right, created by men (and Hilary Clinton) There really is no right answer to whether standing for the pledge is the equivilant to surrendering your freedoms, or just showing pride in your country. You can say the pledge and have no pride, or sit out of respect of the country. Personally, i stand to keep the teachers at bay, but I will not say it aloud.


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## Raging_Hopeful

Eh. But are we really as free in the way our fore fathers had intended? So called "Patriot Acts" (the irony of naming an Act that robs us of our civil rights 'Patriot') and an abusive and heavy-fisted government? It's all relative and I won't get into politics. I agree with you zeeby, whether you stand or sit, it's all about how you feel and it doesn't matter how you choose to express that.

Stupid fascist country. >.<


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## John Mirra

Raging_Hopeful said:
			
		

> Eh. But are we really as free in the way our fore fathers had intended?
> 
> Stupid fascist country. >.<


Our same forefathers who passed the Alien and Sedition Acts? Those ones?

In any event, I have to respectfully disagree and say America isn't really a fascist country at all. In fact, I think (from an equally nonsensical perspective) that we're a little more falangist, or Japanese imperialist, y'know. </petpeeve>

Anywho, I'm still not entirely sure if critique is kosher here, but you should try and organize your thoughts a little better, too. 




			
				For Example said:
			
		

> To be in trouble for not standing seems like a trivial thing.


Technically speaking, that could mean that you find the subject of your essay trivial and unimportant. Though it could also mean, in all fairness, that you're simply assuming the readers have already made up their minds on the issue.

In any event, just try and be clearer.


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## acapella

I wish that we had a pledge in Canada so that I could not stand for it. Here's to you, curse.


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## Hodge

Some teachers make you stand. There was a video on the internet a while back that had a kid who had a camera hidden in his backpack refuse to stand during the pledge, and the teacher got super pissed and pulled the chair out from under him after yelling at him to stand.

I also had a teacher yell at me to stand once. A P.E. teacher. A couple others have demanded I stand as well...


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## A Simple Man

Bunch of freakin' anarchists.

*sniffle-wipe-sob* I _love_ you.


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## Curse

I am not saying i hate my country, i think there are flaws up the damn wazoo. But i refuse to pledge my alliegence to this country, i dont believe in it and i think its wrong. I am not telling people to NOT stand i made my point and backed it up with facts my own Social Studies teacher didnt know. Im sorry if i offended anyone in any way but its so wrong to me to force someone to stand for something they dont believe in. I fought for my rights and no can tell me otherwise. Thank you to my supporters XD i seem to have a mob. Pm's rock too guys


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## zeeby

First off, I haven't come by a single anarchist in this thread, which surprises me. Yeah I am 100% against anarchy, and I think it's just a fashion, but anyways, the people here know more about government to be outright anarchists, unless I'm totally wrong here. Secondly, it's so clique to right about America being facsist, and if somebody could explain that further, it'd be appreciated.


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## John Mirra

zeeby said:
			
		

> Secondly, it's so clique to right about America being facsist, and if somebody could explain that further, it'd be appreciated.


Much like it's a cliche for loony Muslims to be "Islamo-fascists", and perhaps for the very same reasons. The reason people say our government has become an Italian political party is because they can get away with it, banking on stupidity. If people said the Republicans, or the _terrorists_, were Nazis most would wail about how it undermines the tragedy of the Holocaust, whereas calling them Facists generally incurs "Grr, those... uh... Fascists, Fascists... hmm, sounds like 'eyelashes'... something to do with WWII bad guys... moustaches... hmmm... damn fucking Fascists!"

In short, people can throw around the word Fascist because it won't offend too many people (as "Nazi" would), sound stupid (as "Japanese-Imperialist" would), worn (as "Communist" damn well does), or obscure (as "Falangist" would), and like all the aforesaid terms it does invoke feelings of old American _triumph_ over adversity and evil.

While I do understand that language evolves a little eugenics couldn't hurt with terms like this. I simply have difficulty connecting Mussolini and the axe within the bundle to George Bush or Osama bin Laden. The fact is that no-one gives a damn; I've been cursed with hearing Communists called Fascists, for Godssake.


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## Curse

lol ok ok guys no killing echother over the insanity that is past and present governemt. The truth is it will never be perfect because perfection is a myth. Now i will say i support our troops but i dont support the war, i support people risking their lives for a greater good even if it was build on wrong reasons. So let agree to disgree as my 4 year old cousin would say, because everyone deserves a view and an opinion on everything. And freedom of speech is something we do possess.


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## Knightskye

If you're not standing because you don't want to, okay.  If you're not standing because you're trying to attract attention: "Hey, f*** this, I'm not standing!"  Go sit in the hallway while the rest of your class is standing.  It's a public building, they can make rules and enforce them.  Do you walk into class a half-hour late and expect not to get into trouble?  Probably not.  But people would rather complain about two words they don't even recite, or being forced to pledge their allegance, than complain that school starts too early, or that recess should be available in middle and high school.


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## Craig Baugher

Oh Well


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## Curse

...Oh god *wails head on table* Listen I am not some juvi here, I simply say that my right says I do not have to stand for the pledge because I don’t believe in it. I am not rebelling against the school or plotting any sort of world domination what so ever (yet) but my point is. The reason the pledge stands for I don’t like; as a free human being because of my government I am allowed to sit. And no offence to the person above me, but don’t talk to me like I am stupid or that you understand anything. Because you are not a 16-year-old girl in the year 2007 are you? No didn’t think so, I have my friends and I have my family. I pissed off the teacher that decided she wanted to fight me on this and won but the principal was behind me all the way. I understand the flag and what it means I understand why it is there and how it came about. But the foundation it was made is has crumbled and no one cares enough to cement it back together. If you want to lecture me on how my 16 year old girl self will come to learn then please don’t, because I already know


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## Craig Baugher

I hear ya girl.  Good luck with your narissistic self.


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## Hodge

She's not being narcissistic. You're being condescending.


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## Craig Baugher

naw


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## Raging_Hopeful

Oy. Well yes America has it much better than other countries but the vast majority don't appreciate it and we waste a good amount of potential by indulging egotistical patriotism. Yes, our penis is bigger than yours. AND it's red white and blue!

As for the fascist remark, I apologize. I don't really think it's fascist and was speaking more out of sarcasm than actual intelligence. However, just because I'm from a "younger" generation, doesn't necessarily condemn me to ignorance. I'm well aware that we are fortunate to have the rights that we do but I am also not at peace with the hypocrisy and power games America has played through the ages. Maybe that speaks to politics everywhere and I'm not trying to get into American/political bashing, but the whole "you're young and don't understand" bull is just a load of bunk.

Consider that we young'uns might have something important to say.


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## zeeby

Ok so the sum of it is, we all wish that we could reach perfection, but we also realize that we will never reach that point. We're all angry at the ambitious for ruining the party, so we shit on them by not saying their stupid pledge. We live in a country that gains it's riches by shitting on other people's livelyhoods, so in a way, it is a chain of one group shitting on another. I think its funny that everyone in this thread is babbeling about hypocrisy (and i see it too guys don't worry) when they're using computers that we could purchase because we shit on others to gain the necassary capitol. We complain about the government that brings others down to raise itself up, yet we're right alongside them for the ride. I'm not saying "if you don't like this country, than ye can geeeeeeeeeet out" all i'm saying is, everyone here, including Hodge, (yes you), shoudld take a good hard look at their ideals, and examine just how closely we obey them.


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## zeeby

At least we don't live in apartheid or anything


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## Crepuscular

The people that feel everyone MUST stand for the pledge are the same people that believe burning the flag should be marked as treason.  

These are people that have no concept of true freedom.  They don't even understand what soldiers died to protect.  

In fact they dislike any form of freedom that differs from their random morals.  They prefer conformity and a blind patriotism that has no real meaning.  And it is uniquely American.

The pledge is strictly illegal.  Separation of church and state.  The 'under God' portion of the pledge is an insult to all agnostics, atheists and differing religions.

It's the same with our money.  Having 'In God We Trust' on our bills is not legal.

The only reason these traditions continue is because the people who rule on the lawsuits brought forth happen to believe in God.  It's selfish.  

Imagine if The Pledge included the words 'One nation, there is no God...' or our money stated 'There is No God.'  There would be outrage.  And all these pseudo-Patriots and champions of freedom would scream for change immediately.

Freedom depends on the hands that hold the guns and gavels.


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## Slartibartfast

Lot's of replies here. It's a tricky subject. Please allow me put in my two cents: 

We are not living in a communistic country, with a dictator casting a shadow of fear over its people. In fact, America stands for the exact opposite. It's ludicrous to think we can be punished for not bowing down to our country. Why should anyone be forced to act in a manner contradictory to the way they really feel?

Perhaps long ago I would have willingly pledged my allegiance--pledged to a country that was honorable and righteous (at least a hell of a lot more than it is now). But in recent years, I am embarrassed by the country I live in. I'm ashamed to not only be American, but Human! I know that is dramatic, but I want to make myself perfectly clear--I will never bow down and pledge to a society that kills...murders...lies. 

I have strong feelings about this...can you tell?


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## Curse

Oy vay *smacks hand on forhead*
All of your points are correctly stated and backed up with your personal thoughts and feelings. The truth is the supreme court ruled that we DON'T have to stand. And anyone who wants to can and anyone who does not want to does no have to. This is america and no matter how corrupt our government may be we at least have some guild lines. 

And i thank you all for applying your thoughts because it is an interesting argument and an almost fight worthy topic. But freedom says you may do what you like, and my US history and Gov't teacher who tried to have me in dention for not standing can preferably kiss my butt.


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## I Idiom

Honestly, I hope I never met most of you people in my life. If you cannot even bother to respect the country you live in, and what others have done for you to have this right of choice, then you've learned nothing. Rather then wasting time on making a point (if you can call it that) by disrupting your class, maybe you should be learning in it. 

 America and her ideals stand taller and broader then whatever you happen to be disagree with at any given point in history. Children today have no clue about their country, and would rather make some asinine/trendy point of sticking it to the man then learning about her.

It sickens me...


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## Hodge

Apparently you have no clue about our country, either, or you'd think to take off those rose colored glasses.


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## Curse

All right now that was truly uncalled for. How dare you. We are people with voices and opinions. And what is America but based on the ideas of freedom by a select few who believed in it. It is BECAUSE of America that we are allowed to voice our thoughts and it is because of our government that we are able to fight against it. If something is wrong you change it. Thomas Jefferson believed that if our government was corrupt or had flaws you should over throw it and make change.

We are not staring a riot or a rebellion. We are proving that we as people who have power in our government are allowed our civil rights. You know those first 10 ones?
But I have no knowledge of our country what so ever. Oh pity me and my 16-year-old self for not knowing anything about anything. We all have ears and we all have eyes. How DARE you. Maybe it is you who is blind to the flaws of our government and maybe it is YOU who knows nothing. Because as far as I can see, all of these people are more knowledgeable and intellectual than you ever would be
And i will not take your slander here, so shape up or ship out Idiom.


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## I Idiom

Hodge said:
			
		

> Apparently you have no clue about our country, either, or you'd think to take off those rose colored glasses.



Uh huh...


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## I Idiom

Curse said:
			
		

> All right now that was truly uncalled for. How dare you. We are people with voices and opinions. And what is America but based on the ideas of freedom by a select few who believed in it. It is BECAUSE of America that we are allowed to voice our thoughts and it is because of our government that we are able to fight against it. If something is wrong you change it. Thomas Jefferson believed that if our government was corrupt or had flaws you should over throw it and make change.
> 
> We are not staring a riot or a rebellion. We are proving that we as people who have power in our government are allowed our civil rights. You know those first 10 ones?
> But I have no knowledge of our country what so ever. Oh pity me and my 16-year-old self for not knowing anything about anything. We all have ears and we all have eyes. How DARE you. Maybe it is you who is blind to the flaws of our government and maybe it is YOU who knows nothing. Because as far as I can see, all of these people are more knowledgeable and intellectual than you ever would be
> And i will not take your slander here, so shape up or ship out Idiom.


Thank you for proving my point several times in your post. You don't know anything about your country. You keep saying how dare, I how dare I... how dare I what? Speak my opinion that you seem to be waving around like some righteous banner on your tiny bragade? You can like or dislike the government, I don't care what you do. However, like I said (which you apparently missed) America stands for those ideals that you oh-so apparently cling to, and not what her climent is at any given time.  

You do get the idea, right? Ideals stand for something more then the moment? By respecting your flag, your country and her history, you respect what she stands for -- regardless of what you happen to disagree with by any administration/person. You want to uphold your rights and beat them on your pocket-size war-drum,_ screaming_ about your independence, but refuse to respect the very place that gives you the ability to do so? You refuse to respect your fore-fathers who gave you the oh-so American right of decent?

How dare I? How dare *YOU* do something so utterly _ignorant_.

Shape up or ship out,huh? Get a grip...


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## Hodge

> You do get the idea, right? Ideals stand for something more then the moment? By respecting your flag, your country and her history, you respect what she stands for -- regardless of what you happen to disagree with by any administration/person. You want to uphold your rights and beat them on your pocket-size war-drum, screaming about your independence, but refuse to respect the very place that gives you the ability to do so? You refuse to respect your fore-fathers who gave you the oh-so American right of decent?



Let me enlighten you.

The Pledge of Allegiance was created in order to inspire nationalistic thought in the citizens of the United States.

Do you know what nationalism is? It's the internalization of propaganda painting your country as the best. In fact, fascism was a type of government which utilized nationalism to great effect. We all know how Italy and Nazi Germany turned out, don't we?

Later, in the 1950's, the words "under God" were added to it to further separate us from those darned atheist Soviets. Nevermind that government is supposed to be secular.

Basically, you claim we should respect the country without any reason for doing so. It's always seemed to me that respect must be earned, and not freely given, and the only way to really be able to respect this country is to know what it has done in the past, how its laws have been shaped, what the founding fathers meant to accomplish, the strengths and weaknesses of the political process, and so on. And by the time you do all that, you'll realize that the pledge of allegiance isn't respectful at all.


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## CircusFolk

I don't say the pledge every morning. I stand because I don't feel like getting reprimanded (I have no idea if they actually would) but half the time I'm still reading/writing/doing whatever I was doing before while standing. I personally don't care about the pledge, I don't feel it serves any purpose. It is more of a chore than anything else. 



> You want to uphold your rights and beat them on your pocket-size war-drum,_ screaming_ about your independence, but refuse to respect the very place that gives you the ability to do so? You refuse to respect your fore-fathers who gave you the oh-so American right of decent?


 
Patriotism and respect for America's forefathers has nothing to do with a mantra.



> It's always seemed to me that respect must be earned, and not freely given, and the only way to really be able to respect this country is to know what it has done in the past, how its laws have been shaped, what the founding fathers meant to accomplish, the strengths and weaknesses of the political process, and so on.


 
Agreed. How criticism that points out weaknesses in the government can be called "unpatriotic" is beyond me. If you care enough about a place to point out its weaknesses and attempt to fix them, wouldn't you be making the country better? To label criticism unpatriotic makes no sense.


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## I Idiom

Hodge said:
			
		

> Let me enlighten you.
> 
> The Pledge of Allegiance was created in order to inspire nationalistic thought in the citizens of the United States.
> 
> Do you know what nationalism is? It's the internalization of propaganda painting your country as the best. In fact, fascism was a type of government which utilized nationalism to great effect. We all know how Italy and Nazi Germany turned out, don't we?
> 
> Later, in the 1950's, the words "under God" were added to it to further separate us from those darned atheist Soviets. Nevermind that government is supposed to be secular.
> 
> Basically, you claim we should respect the country without any reason for doing so. It's always seemed to me that respect must be earned, and not freely given, and the only way to really be able to respect this country is to know what it has done in the past, how its laws have been shaped, what the founding fathers meant to accomplish, the strengths and weaknesses of the political process, and so on. And by the time you do all that, you'll realize that the pledge of allegiance isn't respectful at all.



Thanks... I feel enlightened...

I suppose it comes across as I am strictly speaking of the institutionalized nature of pledging to the flag when I am not. I know my history very well. I'm not sure how you came up with the idea I said we should respect the country for no particular reason. I thought I stated that rather well.

People, especially a decenter (which I am not even necessarily labeling her as) should respect the ideas and freedoms that are so unique to America. Few places in the world can she find the same freedoms and abilities to do as she wants. Perhaps that is a bit misplaced in this day and age, but the truth remains plausible. I have never considered the Pledge to be the gold marker of what the country stands for. But I do consider that flag to represent my country and all her ideals.

Respect must be earned? Of course it should be -- are you saying Americas history as an overall whole shouldn't be respected? Only a fool would ever say that any country doesn't have dark spots. Yet also, only a fool doesn't recognize that this country has a very special history to her that has been laid down by millions of others for her (or anyone) to do as she wants. That is what deserves respect. And like it or not -- that goes hand in hand with your flag -- the symbol of your country.

Could be I am too institutionalized myself. I am older than the both of you, and grew up saying the pledge (and believing in it). I don't like when people don't say the pledge -- but can understand it under the circumstances of references to God. But I have never truly associated the two together. As I keep saying, that flag stands for a hell of a lot more than a pledge. 

Very least someone can do is _stand_ for their flag -- a universal sign of respect.


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## Hodge

Our country has had more than just a few dark spots. Most countries have really just been cesspools of intolerance, criminal action, violence, inequality, poverty, and other problems, really.

But ours. First we broke away from the British. Right on. That didn't stop us from invading Native American territory and taking it from them, or wiping out entire villages with military action or disease laden blankets and clothes (or both). In fact, this lasted up until the late 19th century, with brief periods of treaty-signing (none of which we honored), at which time we stopped and began to round them up on reservations and simply suppress their culture. It wasn't hard, considering there were so few of them left. Not until the 1970's did we actually start to look at their cultures and accept them in society.

Blacks? Pretty much the same thing, except instead of committing genocide, we just enslaved them all (we enslaved Native Americans as well). Or rather, we refused to set them free when the country was founded. Some of the founding fathers actually wanted that as part of the constitution (John Adams and Ben Franklin are two of them), but the southern colonies wouldn't consent to a revolution with that stipulation, so it didn't happen. When it finally DID happen, reconstruction efforts in the south abruptly ended, leaving blacks without any protection or means of making a productive living, and also leaving many southern whites impoverished. It wasn't until 40 years ago that blacks finally gained equal political rights as whites, but they still have a ways to go in being integrated in society.

We've actually been pretty isolationist in our history. It wasn't until Woodrow Wilson's reign that we really started mucking about. Wilson staged several covert military coups in Latin America and Haiti in order to install puppet dictators to keep those countries from ever threatening U.S. interests. Initially, when people found out, the government said "oops, our troops have strayed a little off course into, uh, Honduras..." But later, when the papers were declassified, the coups were revealed. All in the name of "democracy," of course (nevermind that we rigged the elections). Since then, we've meddled with pretty much every country's affairs.

We've also used propaganda to inspire hatred against Germans (during both world wars, and not just Nazis—ALL Germans), Japanese (and we dropped a second bomb on them really just to test how a more complex plutonium reaction would work), communists, Arabs, and even the Spanish (remember the Maine?). 

There were a ton of shady dealings during the cold war. The Iran-Contra affair, the training of fundamentalist muslim militants during the USSR's invasion of Afghanistan (the leader of which was bin Laden, who was our buddy for a time), the support of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein (also our buddy), the Bay of Pigs (an illegal invasion of Cuba), and oh so many more.


I'd say if anything, this democratic ideology (which is a farce, anyways, since this isn't a democracy and the crafters of our government _knew_ democracy was a pretty shoddy form of government) has caused more harm in the world than good. As far as our actual governmental system goes, it's pretty good, and it was revolutionary 200 years ago. But nowadays its flaws are compounded by increasingly advanced technology. Before, a candidate couldn't get his face out to all that many people, so people had to vote more on politics. Nowadays, charismatic candidates take it all, even if their politics are flawed or wishy-washy (Kerry got slammed for flip-flopping, even though Bush is also a major flip-flopper—Bush is just prettier and more recognizable; this is why the incumbent in elections almost always wins).

Anyways, that's enough of a tirade. I will not respect any country that is based on flawed ideals, I will not respect any country with great ideals that doesn't act on them, and I will not respect any country period. Except maybe Norway. I am not proud to be an American (although I am glad), and I am not proud of this country's history. I am proud of what I have accomplished and what I, myself, am. I can't ever imagine being prideful of a place I live in. That'd be like being proud of inheriting a fortune from my parents. I didn't earn it. I didn't even choose to get it.


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## I Idiom

Hodge said:
			
		

> Anyways, that's enough of a tirade. I will not respect any country that is based on flawed ideals, I will not respect any country with great ideals that doesn't act on them, and I will not respect any country period. Except maybe Norway. I am not proud to be an American (although I am glad), and I am not proud of this country's history. I am proud of what I have accomplished and what I, myself, am. I can't ever imagine being prideful of a place I live in. That'd be like being proud of inheriting a fortune from my parents. I didn't earn it. I didn't even choose to get it.


Yeah, I guess only America has ever done things like that. I mean, all of human history is marked by such things -- But America created it -- somehow -- or maybe brought it to a new level? Is that what you're implying? And geez, I figured you being a connoisseur of "America is so evil! EVIL!" you would have brought up American being instrumental in over-throwing a democratic Iran. It would have been more appropriate form of satire in this day and ages climate. Ho-hum.

 But I suppose those things all erase what incredible good this country has done -- right? We be da bad bad peoples we be -- and so ignant! I cant help but ask why you are even here then? Kind of a trite question -- I know. You're old enough to move now. Educated enough to get schooling in another country. Why are you in the belly of this perverted beast if it offends you so?

I could easily 'match' you with examples of what I feel America has done, but it would grow tiresome and I am here to enjoy the simplicities of writing. I have other forums to battle ideologies in. Besides, I have the feeling you know well enough what those things are, so I would bother to point them out. Chances are, you would just view them different for the sake of fighting. I've watched you in many an argument, you like to fight for the _sake_ of it. I tip my hat to the supreme devils advocate. 

However, I am curious about people like you as to why you don't move off to another place.

*Edited for additional thoughts:*

*I'd say if anything, this democratic ideology (which is a farce, anyways, since this isn't a democracy and the crafters of our government knew democracy was a pretty shoddy form of government) has caused more harm in the world than good. As far as our actual governmental system goes, it's pretty good, and it was revolutionary 200 years ago. But nowadays its flaws are compounded by increasingly advanced technology. Before, a candidate couldn't get his face out to all that many people, so people had to vote more on politics. Nowadays, charismatic candidates take it all, even if their politics are flawed or wishy-washy (Kerry got slammed for flip-flopping, even though Bush is also a major flip-flopper—Bush is just prettier and more recognizable; this is why the incumbent in elections almost always wins).

*I re-read this and thought it was a pretty interesting point. I mean first off, you're right -- we're more a republic than anything -- but whatever. 200 years ago it was a very revolutionary piece of paper to be fabricated. Most likely why the American constitution has been copied (not to an exact, mind you) by many another country. Now, I would have to disagree with you on it being flawed by any reason other than people. Part of why the constitution is so brilliant is because it was meant to be change by what the people wanted.

The constitution was (again I say) designed to have the ability to be modulated by the voters. The founding fathers knew times would change, that they couldn't think of everything in the short amount of time they wrote it up. It had to be versatile, but not so much so that it could be thrown around on whimsical wants and needs. It goes without saying that they could never imagine such a thing as TV, but I feel flaws are more to do with people being lazy about voting. Every bit of our governing system could be changed if people would use their power to do so. They just don't.

I dunno, regardless you gave me something to think about.


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## Gunther

My dear Curse, have you been reading my inner-monologue again? Truth be told I've never correctly done the pledge of allegiance. I guess rebellion runs strong in my family I remember in kindergarten I'd always fudge the ending just so they wouldn't have that pledge from me that I wasn't willing to honor. Then in my later years I didn't have to worry very much, mostly because I didn't go to school much but if I had I still wouldn't have said it. 

Why? Because you have to stick to your principles, if you don't believe what you're saying then don't say it. What are they going to do -- expel you? Not likely. Big ol' thumbs up from me.


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## Hodge

> Yeah, I guess only America has ever done things like that. I mean, all of human history is marked by such things -- But America created it -- somehow -- or maybe brought it to a new level? Is that what you're implying? And geez, I figured you being a connoisseur of "America is so evil! EVIL!" you would have brought up American being instrumental in over-throwing a democratic Iran. It would have been more appropriate form of satire in this day and ages climate. Ho-hum.



There's a lot of bad shit this country has committed. But don't get me wrong -- EVERY country has a long history of corrupt or otherwise bad behavior. Even Canada, as hard as it may be to believe.



> But I suppose those things all erase what incredible good this country has done -- right? We be da bad bad peoples we be -- and so ignant! I cant help but ask why you are even here then? Kind of a trite question -- I know. You're old enough to move now. Educated enough to get schooling in another country. Why are you in the belly of this perverted beast if it offends you so?



Because moving is a pain in the ass. I can't be expected to just abandon my life and start new somewhere else. Especially not with all this debt I have (auto loan, student loans, erm, credit cards...). I'd just be moving to another country with a horrid history. My point was that I don't derive my sense of pride from the country I live in.



> I could easily 'match' you with examples of what I feel America has done, but it would grow tiresome and I am here to enjoy the simplicities of writing. I have other forums to battle ideologies in. Besides, I have the feeling you know well enough what those things are, so I would bother to point them out. Chances are, you would just view them different for the sake of fighting. I've watched you in many an argument, you like to fight for the sake of it. I tip my hat to the supreme devils advocate.



I don't think you could. We've done some good things, but very of them were done just to be humanitarians -- in almost every instance of charity, there's been something in it for us. In World War II, it was a race against the Soviets to see who got to take Germany and all their advanced technology (we won -- Operation Paperclip was a project in which Nazi scientists were granted amnesty and in some cases U.S. Visas in exchange for their prior research and their continuing research -- some of that research had been conducted on the Jews in concentration camps). Korea and Vietnam were ideological struggles. Lincoln freed the slaves because he wanted to ruin the south's production power (he was against slavery to begin with, although he was a TERRIBLE racist and it's a good thing he was shot because his plan was to send all the blacks to Liberia). Anyways, just a few examples.

No country is exempt from any of this behavior. We just happen to be the most powerful country in the world, so if we decide, based on misinformation and ulterior motives, to invade another country, it's a bigger problem than if a  country like Spain decided to. If Spain decides to do something bad, we can stop them, as can other countries. If we decide to, there isn't much anyone can do about it. 



> I re-read this and thought it was a pretty interesting point. I mean first off, you're right -- we're more a republic than anything -- but whatever. 200 years ago it was a very revolutionary piece of paper to be fabricated. Most likely why the American constitution has been copied (not to an exact, mind you) by many another country. Now, I would have to disagree with you on it being flawed by any reason other than people. Part of why the constitution is so brilliant is because it was meant to be change by what the people wanted.
> 
> The constitution was (again I say) designed to have the ability to be modulated by the voters. The founding fathers knew times would change, that they couldn't think of everything in the short amount of time they wrote it up. It had to be versatile, but not so much so that it could be thrown around on whimsical wants and needs. It goes without saying that they could never imagine such a thing as TV, but I feel flaws are more to do with people being lazy about voting. Every bit of our governing system could be changed if people would use their power to do so. They just don't.



The written constitution is the part I would say is still relevant today. A lot of countries that have adopted a similar governmental system to our own don't have written constitutions, and I think that leaves too much room for radical changes to human rights and such.

But the people aren't the problem with our system. Look what happens if two candidates in a state receive 49% and 51% of the vote: the one with the slight lead takes home ALL the electoral votes. Or if a senator or representative wins by a slight margin: they take it all, baby. Other countries have adopted a proportional representation system in which every party that gets votes gets seats in parliament. That system is superior to our winner-takes-all system. Over in England, if a party doesn't win by an overwhelming amount, it still has to play nice with the other parties in order to get stuff done. It has to form coalitions and such. That doesn't happen in our system. If a party takes over congress by a significant margin and has the white house, the only real way for it to lose power is to prove itself incompetent, which we saw just recently (and saw back when the democrats lost congress in 1994).

Then we also have issues with needing to be rich in order to get elected, and no built in Socratic system (my own term) to detect rhetorical bullcrap from politicians. A few years ago Bush held a series of "town-hall meetings" in which he filled them with supporters, so he didn't receive hard questions from people at all. But he did receive a lot of praise. In the U.K. they did a similar thing, only they didn't screen members of the audience, and Tony Blair just got hammered over and over. You could see him sweating. Made me feel sorry for the guy.

Just imagine how policies would change if elected officials could only vote on matters they actually knew about. Then you wouldn't have dolts voting against stem-cell research or abortion or funding for NASA if they based their views entirely on belief.

And people... People are hard to motivate. Another flaw with our government is our education system. It's not very good, one of the worst out of all the developed nations. If it were better, you'd see a higher voter turn out (as well as less bigoted pricks like Strom Thurmond and Jesse Helms in office).


----------



## I Idiom

My dear, Hodge.

Every example you gave me in the post before this one about all the atrocities is certainly not unique to America. Civilisations have been doing that since the very begging of time. You admit every country has done bad shit yada-yada, but make it seem so utterly American. Countries have been playing the part of "messing" about with others for political reasons since the times of the Sumerians. The references you made during the early 1900's era meant little to me, since Germany and England where doing the exact same thing. The build up of that time, of Americas navy, was to level the playing field on having the ability to have power and influence of some sort over seas to match what England and Germany where doing. Yeah, stupid things happened that anyone would frown upon this day and age, but it was what people did "in those times" to loosely sum it up. 

Nothing you have said to me has been uniquely American -- nothing you said to me hasn't been done before. You don't see people trying to hold the Mongols, Rome, Greece, Egypt, Germany, Japan, etc, accountable for their past to such a extent. If anything, America has never done anything coming close to what they had done in the context we are speaking. Again, no example you have said to me is uniquely American.

America has done some good things? What is so uniquely America is how much blood and money we have put into the freedoms of other people. What is so uniquely American is our very nature. Have you ever spent time outside your country for an extended period of time? Lived somewhere else? We are a friendly people, who so easily look out for others and welcome them into our homes. A respectful, cordial people who genuinely care for others in comparison to other people. I don't think you realize this, or are just ignorant of it (and I am not saying that in an insulting way). You want to sum up struggles America has been involved in by ideologies? You want to sum up (again I say) all the blood, sweat and tears by calling them battles of ideology and "getting" something out of it? It's a fair assessment on some level -- but it is also very uniquely American in the world of history. Name another country, or countries banded together that have had DIRECT responsibility of freeing as many people as America has. This country, and her people, have been giving money to others on a scale that dwarfs all others. Again, getting something out of? Yeah, true -- but I doubt the people benefiting from it see it as such. Aside from that, what does the American public get out of it? You do realize that the American people give out and fund more charities around the world by far then other countries combined. 

If it wasn't for these ideologies, there wouldn't be a South Korea and three million people people would have died a lot sooner than they did (References to examples of the Korean war and the aftermath of the US leaving Vietnam). The European landscape would sure as hell look a lot more different. You can dismiss these things because of instances America has taken advantages of a situations (I found your point about hurrying DEFECTORS back to the U.S moot -- anyone would have done that) as some sign of a dubious people? Can you imagine what would have happened if Hitler or Stalin had achieved
a-bomb technology first?

See, I have no actual interest in comparing instances with you on the historical landscape, they would would just end up being compared from points of view. We would be at it all day, everyday. As aforementioned, I don't want this place (for me) to turn into a super-heated battle ground. But, can you name another country that has given as much by its people (through blood and money) to help others? Can you name another place that gives as much help to others from their own pocket (meaning the American person)? Can you name another place that if you work hard it almost always equals a better way of life (I know this first hand from spending my school life, before college, in a welfare home)? Can you name another point in history, where the direct action of a government has resulted in as many people being set free from from tyranny or communism? 

Sure, we can fire up the furnaces of stupid shit America has done all day. But that (as I have said several dozen times) isn't uniquely American. What I asked above is. 


On a side note, please dig up some info for me on this dropping of a second a-bomb as "test" and PM it to me. Don't consider this a challenge, but I am curious as to where this idea manifested.


----------



## Hodge

I Idiom said:
			
		

> America has done some good things? What is so uniquely America is how much blood and money we have put into the freedoms of other people. What is so uniquely American is our very nature. Have you ever spent time outside your country for an extended period of time? Lived somewhere else? We are a friendly people, who so easily look out for others and welcome them into our homes.



This is nationalism. Charity is not "uniquely American." Not by a long shot. On the contrary, we're a backwater when it comes to social programs. We weren't even the first. Germany was the first welfare state, and the European nations followed suit before we finally did under FDR's presidency.

Nor are we "friendly." We are people. We are no more and no less friendly than anyone else. We may have different ways of showing it, but that's cultural. 

You only think we're the best because you're looking at us from an American's perspective. You are part of this culture, you understand it, so of course this one seems like the best to you. But that's ethnocentric and almost wholly inaccurate.



			
				I Idiom said:
			
		

> If it wasn't for these ideologies, there wouldn't be a South Korea and three million people people would have died a lot sooner than they did (References to examples of the Korean war and the aftermath of the US leaving Vietnam). The European landscape would sure as hell look a lot more different. You can dismiss these things because of instances America has taken advantages of a situations (I found your point about hurrying DEFECTORS back to the U.S moot -- anyone would have done that) as some sign of a dubious people? Can you imagine what would have happened if Hitler or Stalin had achieved
> a-bomb technology first?



Whoa there, cowboy. Those Nazis were not defectors. There's a good reason this project was kept from the American public -- we took actual Nazis -- not just people who worked for the Nazis. Many of the scientists we took had committed some pretty digusting experiments on Jews in concentration camps. We actually ended up doublecrossing some of them later on and trying them as war criminals when Israel found out we were harboring them.



			
				I Idiom said:
			
		

> Name another country, or countries banded together that have had DIRECT responsibility of freeing as many people as America has. This country, and her people, have been giving money to others on a scale that dwarfs all others. Again, getting something out of? Yeah, true -- but I doubt the people benefiting from it see it as such. Aside from that, what does the American public get out of it? You do realize that the American people give out and fund more charities around the world by far then other countries combined.



How many people have we freed? Maybe some Kuwaitis during the first gulf war, but that's all I can think of. World War II didn't end because of us, although we did help speed it along (Germany suffered massive losses invading Russia, and the Soviets managed to turn the tide of the war). The conflicts with the USSR were of ideology and nothing else. They certainly had a lower quality of life than us, but they were far from the monsters we portrayed them as.

As for foreign aid, sure. We give a lot. It's awful hard for any country to match what we can give when our economy is several times larger (and the only reason that is so is because we didn't suffer any infrastructure losses in the world wars so the battle-torn countries hired us to help them rebuild, which created a MASSIVE expansion in our economy). But look at what we do with our foreign aid. We don't freely give it out. We give it out and then tell other countries what to do. We gave several billion dollars to African countries for stopping the spread of HIV, yet we told them they HAD to only promote abstinence, which has been proven to be an ineffective method of stopping people from having sex. That's not very charitable of us. We demand all sorts of things of countries we give aid to. 



			
				I Idiom said:
			
		

> Can you name another place that if you work hard it almost always equals a better way of life (I know this first hand from spending my school life, before college, in a welfare home)?



This is a myth, actually. Social mobility is lower in the U.S. than in many other developed nations, and it has never been particularly high. Exceptions do not make the rule, and the rule is that you die in the same social class you're born in. I don't see how people can believe in this myth when they know that only about 1% of the population makes up the upper class and that this statistic really hasn't changed in forever.



			
				I Idiom said:
			
		

> Can you name another point in history, where the direct action of a government has resulted in as many people being set free from from tyranny or communism?



Please. Both "tyranny" and "communism" are terms the U.S. itself has demonized in an effort to make them sound bad. Before us, tyranny was just another government type. And it's only thanks to Woodrow Wilson that we hated communism so much. Rich people (like those in office) don't like the idea of a government system in which everyone is equal. And most of the time they even got it wrong, instead railing against socialism. Helen Keller was an avid socialist, and Wilson _hated_ her.

Also, I don't believe we ever freed anyone from communism. Vietnam was a failure, and in Cuba we actually just made sure the people had to live in squalor by refusing to trade with them. And yet Castro still created a public education system that is the envy of the world.


----------



## I Idiom

Hodge said:
			
		

> This is nationalism. Charity is not "uniquely American." Not by a long shot. On the contrary, we're a backwater when it comes to social programs. We weren't even the first. Germany was the first welfare state, and the European nations followed suit before we finally did under FDR's presidency.


I never said it was uniquely American in that context. I implied we were by how much we give out. No other country, can match what we give out as a people. Sure, you can try and dismiss it by saying how large and wealthy we are -- but do people take that into consideration as you are constantly dropping change into whatever charity? Aside from that, does that somehow explain that this country alone funds the highest percentage of world charities? We have more people than the rest of the world? 




			
				Hodge said:
			
		

> Nor are we "friendly." We are people. We are no more and no less friendly than anyone else. We may have different ways of showing it, but that's cultural. You only think we're the best because you're looking at us from an American's perspective. You are part of this culture, you understand it, so of course this one seems like the best to you. But that's ethnocentric and almost wholly inaccurate.


I see you didn't answer my question if you have every lived somewhere else before. I have been in Europe for just about two years now, and people are amazed --astounded like I have two heads-- I say ma'am, or you're welcome, hold a door open for someone, say have a good day, genuinely listen to them when I ask how their day was. Every single person I have met, who has been to the States, always goes on and on about how polite America is, how nice people are (Even in NY for god sakes). We are not a friendly people? You have no idea why you're talking about. Of course, inherently I think my culture is "best" yet at the same time, living somewhere for so long, it gives you a base comparison and for the most part we're both western cultures. I could go on, but I don't need to really...




			
				Hodge said:
			
		

> Whoa there, cowboy. Those Nazis were not defectors. There's a good reason this project was kept from the American public -- we took actual Nazis -- not just people who worked for the Nazis. Many of the scientists we took had committed some pretty digusting experiments on Jews in concentration camps. We actually ended up doublecrossing some of them later on and trying them as war criminals when Israel found out we were harboring them.


You act as though that was a bad thing? In war, where the world is literally at stake, you don't thin people should have done that? Er... sorry... "cowboy", there were plenty of Nazi scientist defectors that helped with "things". I have absolutely no need to detail it, because anyone who can pick up a book knows better. And EVEN still, if that wasn't the case your point is still moot. The war needed to be won. Pertaining to the race to Berlin -- again there is something wrong with that? I won't even bother to comment.





			
				Hodge said:
			
		

> How many people have we freed? Maybe some Kuwaitis during the first gulf war, but that's all I can think of. World War II didn't end because of us, although we did help speed it along (Germany suffered massive losses invading Russia, and the Soviets managed to turn the tide of the war). The conflicts with the USSR were of ideology and nothing else. They certainly had a lower quality of life than us, but they were far from the monsters we portrayed them as.
> 
> As for foreign aid, sure. We give a lot. It's awful hard for any country to match what we can give when our economy is several times larger (and the only reason that is so is because we didn't suffer any infrastructure losses in the world wars so the battle-torn countries hired us to help them rebuild, which created a MASSIVE expansion in our economy). But look at what we do with our foreign aid. We don't freely give it out. We give it out and then tell other countries what to do. We gave several billion dollars to African countries for stopping the spread of HIV, yet we told them they HAD to only promote abstinence, which has been proven to be an ineffective method of stopping people from having sex. That's not very charitable of us. We demand all sorts of things of countries we give aid to.


How many people did we free? This country has set more people free in its small history, than have ever been set free in all of recorded history. It's instrumental help in WW2 for starters. Which you are probably one of the 1% who would have the gall to dismiss that. I guess you will also dismiss the Eastern Bloc Nations such as Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland, etc for some reason from the 50 year standoff. Congratulations, you're the only historian to do so! I guess you will again simply dismiss the protection we gave the S Vietnamese and Koreans (Koreans, you know, the millions we kept free from rule by the North) as battles of ideology. I mean it's not like American blood was spilt by the scores securing the very existence of South Korea. Or that when we left South Vietnam, millions died there and in Cambodia, Laos, etc. 

You want to strictly dismiss every ounce of American blood that was spelt as some kind of governmental agenda for whatever reason. Perhaps on some level you are right. But that will never change the amount of lives lost, who were American fighting to protect you (WW2 reference) and their home from tyranny. That will never change the lives we have fought to protect since WW2 in almost every conflict we have been in. More blood has been split in the protection of others than any other country in human history. There is no possible way you can even come close to denying that. You never gave me a direct answer to any of my questions -- instead you chose to spin. And you don't think there is reason to even bother to just stand for your flag? 




			
				Hodge said:
			
		

> This is a myth, actually. Social mobility is lower in the U.S. than in many other developed nations, and it has never been particularly high. Exceptions do not make the rule, and the rule is that you die in the same social class you're born in. I don't see how people can believe in this myth when they know that only about 1% of the population makes up the upper class and that this statistic really hasn't changed in forever.


Must be why so many people come here I guess. I mean, in my old job alone I knew several people from Ethiopia who started out as dish washers and ended up as physical therapist -- making more money then I did as a diet tech. Or the millions who have made a better life through hard work. I never said anything about the upper class. People come here for opportunity -- and there is plenty of it. But again, you just dismiss -- tiresome. I mean now we're getting into a conflict of capitalism Vs whatever. I'll leave that alone. I mean, if you want to dismiss the indisputable fact people come here for a better way of life and opportunity (that very much lives and breath for anyone willing to strive for it) go ahead, all day if you like. I am just glad I lived this "myth" and won't have to watch my children get sick like I did, eating a barbecue sauce sandwich with mold all over it because I didn't know any better.






			
				Hodge said:
			
		

> Also, I don't believe we ever freed anyone from communism. Vietnam was a failure, and in Cuba we actually just made sure the people had to live in squalor by refusing to trade with them. And yet Castro still created a public education system that is the envy of the world.


You're in a very tiny, lonely boat there about America not having freed anyone from communism. But I guess you know better then 99% of historians. Must be some kind of American, flag waving, propaganda stink-fest thing again. 

Cuba... hmmm...


----------



## Hodge

I Idiom said:
			
		

> I never said it was uniquely American in that context. I implied we were by how much we give out. No other country, can match what we give out as a people. Sure, you can try and dismiss it by saying how large and wealthy we are -- but do people take that into consideration as you are constantly dropping change into whatever charity? Aside from that, does that somehow explain that this country alone funds the highest percentage of world charities? We have more people than the rest of the world?



We do, actually. We are the third most populace country in the world, and considering that a lot of charity GOES to China and India...

Do you have statistics on charity? I've never seen any.



			
				I Idiom said:
			
		

> I see you didn't answer my question if you have every lived somewhere else before. I have been in Europe for just about two years now, and people are amazed --astounded like I have two heads-- I say ma'am, or you're welcome, hold a door open for someone, say have a good day, genuinely listen to them when I ask how their day was. Every single person I have met, who has been to the States, always goes on and on about how polite America is, how nice people are (Even in NY for god sakes). We are not a friendly people? You have no idea why you're talking about. Of course, inherently I think my culture is "best" yet at the same time, living somewhere for so long, it gives you a base comparison and for the most part we're both western cultures. I could go on, but I don't need to really...



That's funny, because everyone I've met from outside the U.S. says we're a bunch of arrogant, loud douchebags. American sentiment polls tend to support that view. Doesn't mean it's true of everyone, but when you think about how tourists go off to other countries without knowing anything of their culture and language...



			
				I Idiom said:
			
		

> You act as though that was a bad thing? In war, where the world is literally at stake, you don't thin people should have done that? Er... sorry... "cowboy", there were plenty of Nazi scientist defectors that helped with "things". I have absolutely no need to detail it, because anyone who can pick up a book knows better. And EVEN still, if that wasn't the case your point is still moot. The war needed to be won. Pertaining to the race to Berlin -- again there is something wrong with that? I won't even bother to comment.



There weren't any Nazi defectors. There were scientists living in Germany and German controlled area who fled to the U.S. due to political reasons like Oppenheimer and Einstein. Operation Paperclip was an illegal covert operation. And again, it happened AFTER Germany had been defeated. It wasn't about winning the war, it was about taking the valuable Nazi research -- however unethical it was -- and using it to our own advantage.



			
				I Idiom said:
			
		

> How many people did we free? This country has set more people free in its small history, than have ever been set free in all of recorded history. It's instrumental help in WW2 for starters. Which you are probably one of the 1% who would have the gall to dismiss that. I guess you will also dismiss the Eastern Bloc Nations such as Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland, etc for some reason from the 50 year standoff. Congratulations, you're the only historian to do so! I guess you will again simply dismiss the protection we gave the S Vietnamese and Koreans (Koreans, you know, the millions we kept free from rule by the North) as battles of ideology. I mean it's not like American blood was spilt by the scores securing the very existence of South Korea. Or that when we left South Vietnam, millions died there and in Cambodia, Laos, etc.



Rhetoric. We were not instrumental in World War II, and calling my opinion a minority one doesn't make it wrong. The Soviets turned the tide of the war, not us. We made it faster and probably saved a lot of Soviet and Allied lives.

Also, read your history. Lots of people died in Cambodia and Laos BECAUSE of us. Remember Pol Pot? He was only able to take control because we kinda wrecked Cambodia. 

We also aren't the reason the USSR fell. They fell mainly because Gorbachev allowed more personal freedoms (leading the people to want even more), and because of a disasterous invasion of Afghanistan in which they'd already spent the money (mostly on a nuclear sub project) they intended to get from the oil and natural gas they were going to get. 

Ideology. You view communism as bad simply because that's the American thing to do. 

As for Korea, I'll grant you that. They are grateful to us for keeping the north from nabbing them.



			
				I Idiom said:
			
		

> You want to strictly dismiss every ounce of American blood that was spelt as some kind of governmental agenda for whatever reason. Perhaps on some level you are right. But that will never change the amount of lives lost, who were American fighting to protect you (WW2 reference) and their home from tyranny. That will never change the lives we have fought to protect since WW2 in almost every conflict we have been in. More blood has been split in the protection of others than any other country in human history. There is no possible way you can even come close to denying that. You never gave me a direct answer to any of my questions -- instead you chose to spin. And you don't think there is reason to even bother to just stand for your flag?



Please. We have almost NEVER fought to protect ourselves. World War II and the war of 1812 are the only ones I can think of. 

And I do believe you're wrong, anyway. The Soviets lost over 6 million people in World War II. That alone is a greater loss than all of our conflicts _combined._ 

And no, you don't get direct answers, because they aren't direct questions. You can't cry "foul" when you paint a grey question as black and white and you get a grey answer.



			
				I Idiom said:
			
		

> Must be why so many people come here I guess. I mean, in my old job alone I knew several people from Ethiopia who started out as dish washers and ended up as physical therapist -- making more money then I did as a diet tech. Or the millions who have made a better life through hard work. I never said anything about the upper class. People come here for opportunity -- and there is plenty of it. But again, you just dismiss -- tiresome. I mean now we're getting into a conflict of capitalism Vs whatever. I'll leave that alone. I mean, if you want to dismiss the indisputable fact people come here for a better way of life and opportunity (that very much lives and breath for anyone willing to strive for it) go ahead, all day if you like. I am just glad I lived this "myth" and won't have to watch my children get sick like I did, eating a barbecue sauce sandwich with mold all over it because I didn't know any better.



Yes, people believing in a myth certainly proves it true!

There's more opportunity here than there is in most places, but that doesn't mean the myth is true.



			
				I Idiom said:
			
		

> You're in a very tiny, lonely boat there about America not having freed anyone from communism. But I guess you know better then 99% of historians. Must be some kind of American, flag waving, propaganda stink-fest thing again.



And the communist revolutionaries viewed themselves as freeing people from capitalism.

What's your point? Do you not realize that you're speaking subjectively here? Are you incapable of understanding other people's perspectives? You're basically saying the American view is the correct view, and that is NATIONALISM, the exact same force that make fascist governments like those of Nazi Germany and WW2 Italy possible.


----------



## I Idiom

Hodge said:
			
		

> That's funny, because everyone I've met from outside the U.S. says we're a bunch of arrogant, loud douchebags. American sentiment polls tend to support that view. Doesn't mean it's true of everyone, but when you think about how tourists go off to other countries without knowing anything of their culture and language...


Like I said, in two years of traveling Europe that is what I have heard for the most part. I would say 99% of people I have met. And everyone I have ever met who has been to America.







			
				Hodge said:
			
		

> There weren't any Nazi defectors. There were scientists living in Germany and German controlled area who fled to the U.S. due to political reasons like Oppenheimer and Einstein. Operation Paperclip was an illegal covert operation. And again, it happened AFTER Germany had been defeated. It wasn't about winning the war, it was about taking the valuable Nazi research -- however unethical it was -- and using it to our own advantage.


Wow... just wow... no defectors. I am not going to even bother addressing that. And using technology and people to our advantage after WW2? Boo-hoo...





			
				Hodge said:
			
		

> Rhetoric. We were not instrumental in World War II, and calling my opinion a minority one doesn't make it wrong. The Soviets turned the tide of the war, not us. We made it faster and probably saved a lot of Soviet and Allied lives.


America wasn't instrumental in winning WW2. And because 99% of history books disagree with you doesn't make you wrong.  Interesting... 



			
				Hodge said:
			
		

> We also aren't the reason the USSR fell. They fell mainly because Gorbachev allowed more personal freedoms (leading the people to want even more), and because of a disasterous invasion of Afghanistan in which they'd already spent the money (mostly on a nuclear sub project) they intended to get from the oil and natural gas they were going to get.


Hm, again... 99% of historians would disagree with you on that. But somehow, you must be right again. You have an interesting point of view on things. More or less, because you say so, it is. I mean, you're what -- 20 something but have a better grasp of history than everyone else around you who writes and teaches it? I am just amazed... I am sure you're going to say something snappy to that -- but you've honestly gone bankrupt. "Just because I am in the minority doesn't make me wrong." Jesus, thats rich. Do yourself and all of us a favor. Quit your job. Get all these history books in America (and around the world) re-written and save us all from our dirty lies. 

Save US!



			
				Hodge said:
			
		

> Ideology. You view communism as bad simply because that's the American thing to do.


 That could be true on some underneath level. But I view it as such because a man should be able to work for what he wants. Hard work to me means reward. 



			
				Hodge said:
			
		

> As for Korea, I'll grant you that. They are grateful to us for keeping the north from nabbing them.


 Wouldn't that example alone prove my point on several of our love spats? America saved millions upon millions of lives through the efforts of its people. 





			
				Hodge said:
			
		

> Please. We have almost NEVER fought to protect ourselves. World War II and the war of 1812 are the only ones I can think of.
> 
> And I do believe you're wrong, anyway. The Soviets lost over 6 million people in World War II. That alone is a greater loss than all of our conflicts _combined._
> 
> And no, you don't get direct answers, because they aren't direct questions. You can't cry "foul" when you paint a grey question as black and white and you get a grey answer.



I never said we fought to protect ourselves. I was making points of how many people we have defended across the world and why that is something to be proud of. Amereica's history is littered with defending people.  *"More blood has been split in the protection of others than any other country in human history." *That is what I said. How many conflicts can you come up with were America wasn't asked for help in the last 60 years. Every single question I asked you was point blank -- there was no grey to it.

Can you name another country that has given as much by its people (through blood and money) to help others?
Can you name another place that gives as much help to others from their own pocket (meaning the American person)?

These questions aren't grey -- they are to an exact point with plenty of geography and world history for you to compare to. Don't spin please.






			
				Hodge said:
			
		

> Yes, people believing in a myth certainly proves it true!
> 
> There's more opportunity here than there is in most places, but that doesn't mean the myth is true.


Sorry, but there is no myth here. People have been coming here to improve there lives for over a hundred years now. I have lived this so called "myth" myself. I have known many people personally who have lived this "myth" as well. And didn't you contradict yourself there a bit in that last sentence?





			
				Hodge said:
			
		

> And the communist revolutionaries viewed themselves as freeing people from capitalism.
> 
> What's your point? Do you not realize that you're speaking subjectively here? Are you incapable of understanding other people's perspectives? You're basically saying the American view is the correct view, and that is NATIONALISM, the exact same force that make fascist governments like those of Nazi Germany and WW2 Italy possible.


This is by far the most interesting thing you have said to me. In particular: "And the communist revolutionaries viewed themselves as freeing people from capitalism." I can say, in a lot of things I have argued over the years, I never took that thought in those exact words, in my mind to digest. 

I am done here, to me you went bankrupt a long time ago by dismissing so many things that is commonly placed in even high school history books. Then again you must have dismissed me as some crazed  right-wing (which I'm not) ignorant hick. Perspectives are a funny thing. I would honesty love to meet you face-to-face and buy you a beer and see where this went if we were both drunk. Wonder if we would come to blows, or just call each other stupid...

So here we are:

Americans involvement of WW2s end was minuscule.
America had nothing to do with the fall of the Soviet Union freeing millions.
America... never mind... I won't bother.

You really need to get on the ball and free the minds of all those enslaved by books. You're a ramrod, get to it and save humanity from the lies of general history.  Be interesting to see  what else we collide in in our residency on these forums.


----------



## Curse

Gunther said:
			
		

> My dear Curse, have you been reading my inner-monologue again? Truth be told I've never correctly done the pledge of allegiance. I guess rebellion runs strong in my family I remember in kindergarten I'd always fudge the ending just so they wouldn't have that pledge from me that I wasn't willing to honor. Then in my later years I didn't have to worry very much, mostly because I didn't go to school much but if I had I still wouldn't have said it.
> 
> Why? Because you have to stick to your principles, if you don't believe what you're saying then don't say it. What are they going to do -- expel you? Not likely. Big ol' thumbs up from me.


i'm always reading your inner monologue. ^_^


----------



## Hodge

I Idiom said:
			
		

> Like I said, in two years of traveling Europe that is what I have heard for the most part. I would say 99% of people I have met. And everyone I have ever met who has been to America.



Okay, this really isn't valid evidence here. For one, you can say whatever you want online. Two, you could easily be ignoring all the times people didn't say it. Three, people generally don't walk up to other people and antagonize them by saying their country sucks.

http://www.pipa.org/

Oh look.

"A majority of people polled for the BBC World Service across 27 countries believe Israel and Iran have a mainly negative influence in the world with almost as many saying the same about North Korea and the United States."



			
				I Idiom said:
			
		

> Wow... just wow... no defectors. I am not going to even bother addressing that. And using technology and people to our advantage after WW2? Boo-hoo...



That's right. Ignore the point. These were Nazi scientists who committed atrocious experiments on Jews in concentration camps. Killing them to dissect them or testing new biological agents on them were common practice.

And no, there weren't any defecting scientists during World War II. Not to the U.S., anyway. There may have been a few, but for the most part they either wanted to work with the Nazis or got out before the shit really hit the fan.



			
				I Idiom said:
			
		

> America wasn't instrumental in winning WW2. And because 99% of history books disagree with you doesn't make you wrong. Interesting...



I'd like you to source this 99% figure. 

If you read _American_ textbooks they'll tell you we're the saviors of the universe. But you can't really expect a textbook for use in government-funded schools to be entirely fair and accurate, now can you? And in fact they're not.

Oh look.
http://glenninstitute.osu.edu/washington/ElderPaper.htm



			
				I Idiom said:
			
		

> Hm, again... 99% of historians would disagree with you on that. But somehow, you must be right again.



Source it. Because this is exactly what my history professor told us, and what it said in our history textbook.

What's this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4508901.stm


By the way, trivializing my argument and pointing out my age while simultaneously acting younger than it doesn't help your argument.



			
				I Idiom said:
			
		

> That could be true on some underneath level. But I view it as such because a man should be able to work for what he wants. Hard work to me means reward.



And of course poor people never work hard, which is why they're poor, right? Marxism is the view that each person should be able to contribute according to his/her ability, and that the wealth of a society should benefit all. Capitalism back then meant a lot of money in the hands of a few. It's certainly better nowadays, but it's far from perfect.



			
				I Idiom said:
			
		

> Wouldn't that example alone prove my point on several of our love spats? America saved millions upon millions of lives through the efforts of its people.



Umm, your point was that the U.S. has "saved" more people than any other country and that is has lost more people protecting others than any other country, not that the U.S. hasn't ever done anything to help people.

You're painting the issue black and white. Knock it off.



			
				I Idiom said:
			
		

> I never said we fought to protect ourselves. I was making points of how many people we have defended across the world and why that is something to be proud of. Amereica's history is littered with defending people. "More blood has been split in the protection of others than any other country in human history." That is what I said. How many conflicts can you come up with were America wasn't asked for help in the last 60 years. Every single question I asked you was point blank -- there was no grey to it.



Vietnam didn't ask for our help. Neither did Kuwait. Korea didn't (and that was actually a U.N. operation, not a U.S. one). We'd been asked several times to help out in WW2, but we didn't actually enter the war until WE were attacked. No one asked us to invade Iraq, either. 



			
				I Idiom said:
			
		

> Can you name another country that has given as much by its people (through blood and money) to help others?
> Can you name another place that gives as much help to others from their own pocket (meaning the American person)?
> 
> These questions aren't grey -- they are to an exact point with plenty of geography and world history for you to compare to. Don't spin please.



They are grey. If one billionaire gives up 1% of his money in country A, while a thousand poor people each give up 10% of their money in country B, and country A donates more, which country is more generous? Obviously country B, because while it gave less total, it gave more proportionately.

Also, you're asking me to quantify something that's really hard to quantify. Britain, after it freed its slaves, sent ships down to the coast of Africa to stop the slave trade. How would you quantify that? 

Again, you're trying to make an issue out to be black and white. That is one reason people hate us so much -- we like to ignore reality and middle ground and just say "you're either with us or you're against us."



			
				I Idiom said:
			
		

> Sorry, but there is no myth here. People have been coming here to improve there lives for over a hundred years now. I have lived this so called "myth" myself. I have known many people personally who have lived this "myth" as well. And didn't you contradict yourself there a bit in that last sentence?



Yeah, it's a myth.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3540672/

Do a little research before you use your personal experience as "proof." If you won the lottery, you wouldn't use that experience to justify an argument saying it's easy to win. So don't do it here.

And no, it's not a contradiction! Fucking hell, do you NOT understand the concept of issues NOT BEING BLACK AND WHITE?

Do you have some block in your brain that translates any disagreement with your argument to being a completely opposite argument?! 



			
				I Idiom said:
			
		

> This is by far the most interesting thing you have said to me. In particular: "And the communist revolutionaries viewed themselves as freeing people from capitalism." I can say, in a lot of things I have argued over the years, I never took that thought in those exact words, in my mind to digest.



Well, it's true. Communism has proven itself to be an inferior governmental system to our own, but only because those original good intentions were lost when despots took control.



			
				I Idiom said:
			
		

> You really need to get on the ball and free the minds of all those enslaved by books. You're a ramrod, get to it and save humanity from the lies of general history. Be interesting to see what else we collide in in our residency on these forums.



Please. If you were as educated about history as you think you are, you'd realize that what I am saying is, indeed, correct. American history books rarely, if ever, say anything that implicates the U.S. government in anything bad.



Take note that I can say the U.S. is not the greatest country ever and _not_ mean that it's the worst. Likewise, I can say that social mobility is restricted and _not_ mean it's impossible. I can also say the Soviets turned the tide of the war and _not_ mean the other allied forces had no role.

Do you see what I'm getting at there? Do you understand now that you CAN NOT paint an issue black and white?


----------



## mammamaia

hodge makes good sense in most of what he says... he clearly has studied the full [as opposed to narrow/biased] history of and given sufficient thought to what he comments on here... it is equally clear that his opponent has not... 

[no checks this time, hodge... cash only! ;-) ]


----------



## penforhire

Civil disobediance... is still disobediance. 

We should change the 'o canada' song to the imperial march from starwars, imo.


----------



## Curse

Well no offence pen but that was the dumbest thing i have very heard. And it was perfect timing because we need a little comic relife.


----------



## I Idiom

Like I said dood, I'm done. You've got a lot of people to save from their ignorance. I suggest you get started, you've obviously have a lot of work to do.

Christ... you're giving me sites from the BBC and MSNBC... that's like if I gave you sites from FOX news or started quoting crazed Ann Coulter on you.


----------



## Crepuscular

Hodge is 100% on target.


----------



## I Idiom

I see what you mean.


----------



## Curse

News stations are a bit one sided you know. Like Fox is republican and clearly shows it. We all know what we know from different places and soruces. We have our rights and we should be allowed to voice them at will. This conversation right now with Idom and Hodge was a perfect example of the fact we can debate the important issues. Because we ARE a government that allows it.


----------



## I Idiom

Curse said:
			
		

> News stations are a bit one sided you know. Like Fox is republican and clearly shows it. We all know what we know from different places and soruces. We have our rights and we should be allowed to voice them at will. This conversation right now with Idom and Hodge was a perfect example of the fact we can debate the important issues. Because we ARE a government that allows it.



That was my point, Curse. The BBC and MSNBC are very very liberal. But I very much agree with your post though. Though I am going to have a re-cap with Hodge about things. I've decided to make a paper of sorts out of this.


----------



## mammamaia

by 'sites' did you mean 'cites' or 'citations,' idiom?


----------



## Sickles

The pledge has pretty much lost it's meaning. Every morning students are forced to say it in the majority of schools around the country. Do they even think about what it means? No. Most of the time the students just say it because if they don't they'll get in trouble. In my school, or, in my homeroom atleast, we are not forced to say the pledge, but we do have to stand. I really don't have a problem with standing. Your going to have to stand up to walk to class anyway, so what's the problem? It's not forcing you to pay respect to anything, because if you really don't mean it when you say the pledge, or even stand, than it's not really paying respect, it's just reciting words or simply standing because you have to. 

(I'm sorry if that was confusing I am extremely tired)


----------



## Curse

Um, it's ok.


----------



## Joelle

Wow. This thread is a bunch of rants about standing up for our rights and holding fast to our freedom of expression. Meanwhile there are some people in the world that don't even have the right to leave their home without being gang-raped, or the privilege to get more than a used condom for Christmas..my own cousin lives her life covered from head to toe in fear of getting slashed by the Saudi police..and what? All we can truly bitch about is talking to a flag once a day?
I'm thankful that just _the pledge of allegiance_ is a major thing hindering our rights as Americans. And that's why I don't mind standing.


----------



## The Backward OX

I Idiom said:


> (America, America, America) Can you name another place that if you work hard it almost always equals a better way of life?


I had been reading this debate with interest. And then I spied your remark above. They say a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, and your facile words have brought you undone; they make me wary of everything else you say. For heaven's sake, the Western world is *made up of* *countries* where hard work equals a better way of life.


----------



## The Backward OX

Hodge said:


> abstinence . . . has been proven to be an ineffective method of stopping people from having sex.


 
Umm....not having sex has been proven to be an ineffective method of stopping people from having sex? They didn't have sex and consequently had sex? :-k


----------



## The Backward OX

> Originally Posted by *Hodge*
> 
> Most countries have really just been cesspools of intolerance, criminal action, violence, inequality, poverty . . .


 


> Originally Posted by *Hodge*
> There's a lot of bad shit this country has committed. But don't get me wrong -- EVERY country has a long history of corrupt or otherwise bad behavior.


 
Liechenstein?


----------



## The Backward OX

> Originally Posted by *I Idiom*
> Every single person I have met, who has been to the States, always goes on and on about how polite America is, how nice people are (Even in NY for god sakes)


 



> Originally Posted by *Hodge*
> _That's funny, because everyone I've met from outside the U.S. says we're a bunch of arrogant, loud douchebags. American sentiment polls tend to support that view._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *I Idiom*
> Like I said, in two years of traveling Europe that is what I have heard for the most part. I would say 99% of people I have met. And everyone I have ever met who has been to America.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

 
"_And everyone I have ever met who has been to America_". Statements in direct contradiction of each other? Are you sure you're not a politician in another life? You become less credible with each posting.


----------



## SFeigley

The Backward OX said:


> "_And everyone I have ever met who has been to America_". Statements in direct contradiction of each other? Are you sure you're not a politician in another life? You become less credible with each posting.


 
I don't see what his contradiction was. He said that





			
				I Idiom said:
			
		

> "Every single person I have met, who has been to the States..."


 and expands about how they rave about how polite we are. Then in the next post you quoted he says, 





			
				I Idiom said:
			
		

> "...that is what I have heard for the most part. I would say 99% of people I have met. And everyone I have ever met who has been to America. "


 So both posts hold the same content in saying that everyone he has met during his time in Europe who has actually been to America shares the same view. I don't think I necessarily believe that is the current European perception and I would definitely say that depending on where you go the opinion will range from one end of the scale to the other, but nonetheless, his comments were both in keeping with what his argument is.

As to the rest of the subject, I am a former serviceman who just got out of the USAF in May. With that being said, I believe that this is a topic that can't be generalized. There is certainly no way that I can say that someone should always stand and pledge allegiance, however, I don't think it is appropriate to say you should never stand either. The wondeful thing about humanity is that we are capable of adapting to situations and then reacting to them in an appropriate manner if we so choose. For example, tomorrow 'Curse' could stand and say the pledge because she felt that she was standing not necessarily for her countries policies or president, but maybe for a friend who is serving overseas, or whatever her motivation might be. I would commend her, as would most of us, for doing what she believes is right. Far more likely though is that she is going to go to school tomorrow and she will sit and make her point, which I also commend. Why would I commend both if they contradict each other? Because, she's DOING what she believes. I've seen a lot of finger pointing going on in this thread about why the U.S. is in the state it is now. My personal feeling is that the biggest destroyer of the American dream is our society's apathy. Not only has our country lost the collective will to fight for what it believes in, it is so numb that it no longer even knows what it believes. 

Sorry this is stretching on longer then I anticipated. Bottomline for me, you have the undeniable right to sit or stand as you see fit. I may not agree with your reasons to do either one, but it is still your right. The fact that you defend that right with determination means to me that there is hope. As long as people are willing to stand up for what they believe then perhaps we can regain our collective identity... or perhaps even create a greater one.

Thanks for indulging me.


----------



## The Backward OX

I won't attempt to untangle the beginning of your post. Clearly one of us has our wires crossed somewhere. So let's move on. 
With the end of your post I couldn't agree more. On a global scale, apathy is what is doing us all in. I first started becoming aware of this some years ago. And the only hope we have is for lots - lots - of southern European or Middle Eastern or Latin temperament to somehow find its way into our (Western) psyche. Then we might start getting mad enough to make things happen. *Viva la Revolucion!*


----------



## Olly Buckle

What I don't understand about it is why you take a pledge in an educational establishment. I see no relation between allegiance and learning, surely truth is international and takes no sides. Britain is a monarchy which you would expect to be much more conservative but I was never asked to sing God Save The Queen in school.


----------



## the_weird_turn_pro88

Personally, I stood everyday, of my own accord, and I think if you're going to take advantage of the freedom that pledge stands for then you damn well better stand. We as a people, have the power to tune out the "fascism" that our rotten government dishes out on a daily basis, while still being proud of America as a prosperous country that can still be fixed...


----------



## The Backward OX

the_weird_turn_pro88 said:


> Personally, I stood everyday, of my own accord, and I think if you're going to take advantage of the freedom that pledge stands for then you damn well better stand. We as a people, have the power to tune out the "fascism" that our rotten government dishes out on a daily basis, while still being proud of America as a prosperous country that can still be fixed...


Don't hold your breath


----------



## Garrettpwnsall

This isn't in the debate forum so are we allowed to debate this?  Because I definately don't agree.


----------



## The Backward OX

Garrettpwnsall said:


> This isn't in the debate forum so are we allowed to debate this? Because I definately don't agree.


 
This site, like most others, is a complete shambles, from top to bottom. People post what they like, where they like, and the Devil take the hindmost. Say what you like. You'll get responses. I guarantee it.


----------



## Grim

Curse said:


> i think there are flaws up the damn wazoo. But i refuse to pledge my alliegence to this country, i dont believe in it and i think its wrong.
> 
> I am not rebelling against the school or plotting any sort of world domination what so ever (yet)
> 
> but don’t talk to me like I am stupid or that you understand anything. Because you are not a 16-year-old girl in the year 2007 are you? No didn’t think so
> 
> the foundation it was made is has crumbled and no one cares enough to cement it back together
> 
> Well no offence pen but that was the dumbest thing i have very heard.
> 
> we can debate the important issues. Because we ARE a government that allows it.
> 
> And i will not take your slander here, so shape up or ship out


 
More facts, less angsty bitching.


----------



## the_weird_turn_pro88

All I'm saying is why make a blatant point to not stand or pledge, when no one said it was entirely mandatory. Their views and refusals are meant to be directed at the government, but they feel no one reach that high, so they start from the bottom. This whole thing has inspired me to write my own essay, neither bashing or advocating the views expressed here. Well, maybe a little...


----------



## the_weird_turn_pro88

It's ungrateful and it downright hurts me to hear so many young people say these things about THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. If it wasn't for the US, we'd be hiding in our homes afraid of the Gestapo forces marching just outside the door. 

GET SMART. DON'T LIKE IT HERE? THEN, YOU'D MIGHT AS WELL BLOW YOUR BRAINS OUT BECUASE YOU WON'T FIND ANYWHERE BETTER


----------



## The Backward OX

:-({|=
*Oh, say can you see, by the dawn's early light*
*What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?*
*Whose broad stripes and bright stars thru the perilous fight,*
*O'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming?*

*And the rocket's red glare, the bombs bursting in air,*
*Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.*
*Oh, say does that star-spangled banner yet wave*
*O'er the l-a-n-d of the free, and the home **of - the brave?:-({|=*


----------



## Non Serviam

the_weird_turn_pro88 said:


> It's ungrateful and it downright hurts me to hear so many young people say these things about THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. If it wasn't for the US, we'd be hiding in our homes afraid of the Gestapo forces marching just outside the door.
> 
> GET SMART. DON'T LIKE IT HERE? THEN, YOU'D MIGHT AS WELL BLOW YOUR BRAINS OUT BECUASE YOU WON'T FIND ANYWHERE BETTER


 
Okay, let's get some facts in here.

1) The US was one of several nations whose contribution was almost essential to the victory in WW2.  But, if any one country can be said to have beaten Germany, it's the USSR, which faced over 75% of the German forces even after D-Day and still made it to Berlin first.  And the second-most important in defeating Germany was the group that stood alone against fascism for a year, broke the Luftwaffe, sank the Italian navy at harbour, turned the Mediterranean into an allied lake, landed in North Africa and broke the Italian army, and took three of the five beaches at D-Day:  the Commonwealth force of Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, South Africa and others.

The US _can_ realistically claim to have defeated Japan.

2) Depending on your criteria, there are better places to live than the US.  For example, compared to Americans, people from Germany, France, the UK, the Netherlands and Scandinavia are on average taller, thinner, healthier, longer-lived, better-educated, work fewer hours, take more holiday and earn more money.


----------



## The Backward OX

And definitely make better sex partners


----------



## JoannaMac

I Idiom said:


> I see you didn't answer my question if you have every lived somewhere else before. I have been in Europe for just about two years now, and people are amazed --astounded like I have two heads-- I say ma'am, or you're welcome, hold a door open for someone, say have a good day, genuinely listen to them when I ask how their day was. Every single person I have met, who has been to the States, always goes on and on about how polite America is, how nice people are (Even in NY for god sakes). We are not a friendly people? You have no idea why you're talking about. Of course, inherently I think my culture is "best" yet at the same time, living somewhere for so long, it gives you a base comparison and for the most part we're both western cultures. I could go on, but I don't need to really...



Americans themselves are lovely people, it's just the government I can't stand. American tourists in general have a terrible reputation though for being loud and asking stupid questions, born of an ignorance they have for the rest of the world. 



> How many people did we free? This country has set more people free in its small history, than have ever been set free in all of recorded history.


What rubbish! America has never set anyone free without having it's own agenda. Ask the Iraqi people if they've loved being "set free". What a joke. America has invaded more than 100 countries in as many years, which is more than any other country on Earth. It could be argued that America, in it's short history has brought more death and distruction to our world than any other nation.



> It's instrumental help in WW2 for starters. Which you are probably one of the 1% who would have the gall to dismiss that. I guess you will also dismiss the Eastern Bloc Nations such as Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland, etc for some reason from the 50 year standoff. Congratulations, you're the only historian to do so!


As far as WW2 goes, while the rest of the world mucked in to fight fascism, America sat back and did nothing. It wasn't until Pearl Harbour was bombed that they moved their arses and moved in to help. And then they spent the next 60 years making stupid movies about how they single handedly won the war.



> I guess you will again simply dismiss the protection we gave the S Vietnamese and Koreans (Koreans, you know, the millions we kept free from rule by the North) as battles of ideology. I mean it's not like American blood was spilt by the scores securing the very existence of South Korea. Or that when we left South Vietnam, millions died there and in Cambodia, Laos, etc.


America should never have been in Vietnam! I just spent a year in South Korea which America has set up very nicely to exploit for their own gain. There are plenty of south Koreans who wish that America would leave them alone. Pol pot killed millions of people in Cambodia, and guess who funded him? America! America loves to fund dictators. Every where democracy tries to rear it's head, America comes in, tramples it and sets up some God awful dictator that usually gets out of control.



> Must be why so many people come here I guess. I mean, in my old job alone I knew several people from Ethiopia who started out as dish washers and ended up as physical therapist -- making more money then I did as a diet tech. Or the millions who have made a better life through hard work. I never said anything about the upper class. People come here for opportunity -- and there is plenty of it. But again, you just dismiss -- tiresome. I mean now we're getting into a conflict of capitalism Vs whatever. I'll leave that alone. I mean, if you want to dismiss the indisputable fact people come here for a better way of life and opportunity (that very much lives and breath for anyone willing to strive for it) go ahead, all day if you like. I am just glad I lived this "myth" and won't have to watch my children get sick like I did, eating a barbecue sauce sandwich with mold all over it because I didn't know any better.


The Americn dream is just that, a dream. Sure it works for a few people, but for most it's a pipe dream. You live in a country where you have to pay for health and education. Poor people can't have it, and owning your own house is something many many people will never be able to achieve.



> You're in a very tiny, lonely boat there about America not having freed anyone from communism. But I guess you know better then 99% of historians. Must be some kind of American, flag waving, propaganda stink-fest thing again.
> 
> Cuba... hmmm...


Yeah well I'm in the boat with him. Who has America "freed" from communism? Chile? America funded the coup and assassination of Salvador Allende, the democratically elected leader, and set up that arsehole Pinochet. It freed Vietnam? Most of the world considers it a dirty war. Even America is ashamed. 

I live in the old Soviet block and the standard of living now is worse for most people now than it was under communism. Yeah freedom's great. The people can leave the country now if they want to, they're just so poor, they couldn't even if they wanted to. Plus everywhere else makes it so difficult for them to get in anywhere.


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## Non Serviam

Could we please have a reasoned debate on this subject backed up by facts?



JoannaMac said:


> Americans themselves are lovely people, it's just the government I can't stand. American tourists in general have a terrible reputation though for being loud and asking stupid questions, born of an ignorance they have for the rest of the world.


 
... and the same is true of many other countries, I must say.



JoannaMac said:


> What rubbish! America has never set anyone free without having it's own agenda. Ask the Iraqi people if they've loved being "set free". What a joke. America has invaded more than 100 countries in as many years, which is more than any other country on Earth. It could be argued that America, in it's short history has brought more death and distruction to our world than any other nation.


 
No, I'm rather afraid that would be Great Britain.    The US is responsible for things like Guantanamo Bay, about which I do feel strongly, but they never perpetrated anything like the Amritsar Massacre.



JoannaMac said:


> As far as WW2 goes, while the rest of the world mucked in to fight fascism, America sat back and did nothing.


 
Actually only two groups declared war on fascism without first being attacked themselves:  the Commonwealth and France.



JoannaMac said:


> The Americn dream is just that, a dream. Sure it works for a few people, but for most it's a pipe dream. You live in a country where you have to pay for health and education.


 
Everyone does.  Health and education are costs that every economy bears.  It's true that in some countries these are funded via the tax system.



JoannaMac said:


> Poor people can't have it, and owning your own house is something many many people will never be able to achieve.


 
This is also true everywhere on the globe.


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## Grim

The Backward OX said:


> :-({|=
> *Oh, say can you see by the dawn's early light
> What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
> Whose broad stripes and bright stars thru the perilous fight,
> O'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming?*
> *
> And the rocket's red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
> Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
> Oh, say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
> O'er the l-a-n-d of the free, and the home of the brave?:-({|=*



Oh, OX, that was beautiful! Where's it from?


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## The Backward OX

Non Serviam said:


> Okay, let's get some facts in here.
> 
> if any one country can be said to have beaten Germany, it's the USSR, which faced over 75% of the German forces even after D-Day and still made it to Berlin first.


It wasn’t so much that the Rooshians were better at getting to Berlin. It was that the Yanks were worse. When did you ever hear of the Americans being described as a well-oiled fighting machine? They couldn’t organise two men into a three-hole shithouse without having a queue. And they didn’t have John Wayne to help them either. He was busy in the Pacific.


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## Non Serviam

Non Serviam said:


> Could we please have a reasoned debate on this subject backed up by facts?


 
Can I also plead for restraint and a general absence of cheap shots?


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## JoannaMac

Non Serviam said:


> Everyone does.  Health and education are costs that every economy bears.  It's true that in some countries these are funded via the tax system.



Not a useful comparison. Medical debt is the single largest cause of personal debt in the U.S. No one in Australia gets saddled with a $20,000 debt for a three day stay in hospital. Happens in the U.S everyday. In Australia I can go to a good uni without paying up front fees. You can't go to school in the States if you can't pay.





> This is also true everywhere on the globe.



Yes, but only the U.S is doing such a hard sell on "The Dream". It's a fallacy to say that all you have to do is work hard and your life will be better. Try telling that to the poor immigrants who turn up in the States believing that.


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## The Backward OX

JoannaMac said:


> What rubbish! America has never set anyone free without having it's own agenda. Ask the Iraqi people if they've loved being "set free". What a joke. America has invaded more than 100 countries in as many years, which is more than any other country on Earth. It could be argued that America, in it's short history has brought more death and distruction to our world than any other nation.


 
*"Support America, or we'll bring democracy to your country"*


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## The Backward OX

Non Serviam said:


> Could we please have a reasoned debate on this subject backed up by facts?
> 
> 
> The US is responsible for things like Guantanamo Bay, about which I do feel strongly, but they never perpetrated anything like the Amritsar Massacre.


 
You forgot Agincourt and the Potato Famine.


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## Non Serviam

JoannaMac said:


> Not a useful comparison. Medical debt is the single largest cause of personal debt in the U.S. No one in Australia gets saddled with a $20,000 debt for a three day stay in hospital. Happens in the U.S everyday. In Australia I can go to a good uni without paying up front fees. You can't go to school in the States if you can't pay.


 
Well, there's a difference between school and university.

My point is that you can't go to school anywhere if the society doesn't pay.  This is a problem for impoverished US students, but a benefit to the US taxpayer.

I must say that I personally favour education being funded through the tax system, simply because I think it's a disgrace that there are a higher percentage of degree students coming out of Russia than most places in Europe.  But, it's a matter of choice and compromise, not a simple matter of right and wrong.



JoannaMac said:


> Yes, but only the U.S is doing such a hard sell on "The Dream". It's a fallacy to say that all you have to do is work hard and your life will be better. Try telling that to the poor immigrants who turn up in the States believing that.


 
I don't think the US is to blame for that.  Personally I view "the dream" as mystical semi-religious rubbish, since it's quite apparent to me that the people who make money under a capitalist system aren't the ones who work hard but the ones who take the right risks; but, it's a good message to send.

I mean, I'm not Christian, but I can sympathise with the ten commandments.  I'm not American, but I can sympathise with the dream.


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## Non Serviam

The Backward OX said:


> You forgot Agincourt and the Potato Famine.


 
And, indeed, banishing our criminals to Australia so they could steal from the aborigines instead.  

Please can we finish with the cheap shots now?


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## The Backward OX

Ok, John Wayne was cheap and I apologise. But Agincourt was an English disgrace with the deliberate murder of prisoners, as was the British Government's method of handing out dole money to the Irish during the famine, which directly caused the death by starvation of millions.


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## Non Serviam

Britain's perpetrated a really horrible number of atrocities on the Irish, and a fairly horrible number on the French.  Although I believe our treatment of our Indian and African colonies was probably our worst crime.

I think I could make a reasonable case that post-Imperial Britain is a force for good, though.


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## The Backward OX

JoannaMac said:


> American tourists in general have a terrible reputation though for being loud and asking stupid questions, born of an ignorance they have for the rest of the world.


 
I wonder _why_ this is so?
(this is me being a smartarse again)


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## The Backward OX

Originally Posted by *The Backward OX* 

 
_:-({|=_
_*Oh, say can you see by the dawn's early light*_
_*What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?*_
_*Whose broad stripes and bright stars thru the perilous fight,*_
_*O'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming?*_

_*And the rocket's red glare, the bombs bursting in air,*_
_*Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.*_
_*Oh, say does that star-spangled banner yet wave*_
_*O'er the l-a-n-d of the free, and the home of the brave?:-({|=*_





Grim said:


> Oh, OX, that was beautiful! Where's it from?


 
Hang around this cuckoo's nest for a while and you'll learn not to ask questions like that. Someone might think you are serious, and answer you.


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## the_weird_turn_pro88

I WAS SHOCKED TO FIND THAT OVER A HUNDRED POSTS AND VIEWINGS WENT TO CURSE'S CHILDISH THREAD. I HAVE A MUCH LONGER, AND FAR MORE INTERESTING READ, AND WILL BE POSTING MANY MORE, IF YOU'LL READ THEM. I LIKE POSTING STORIES AND HAVING MY PEERS IN THE WRITING COMMUNITY FROM AROUND THE WORLD READ THEM OVER. I JUST THINK WE SHOULD BE TRYING HARDER TO GET OFF THE TOPIC OF AMERICA RIGHT NOW, WHICH HAS BEEN COVERED SINCE ALLEN GINSBERG AND KURT VONNEGUT...


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## the_weird_turn_pro88

CURSE HAS STARTED SOMETHING THAT I NOW SEE ISN'T WORTH THE READING AND WRITING, SO HERE'S MY _FINAL THOUGHT_: THE ESSAY, IF YOU CAN CALL A PARAGRAPH AND A HALF AN ESSAY, WAS BOTH REDUNDANT AND UNNECESSARY. I CAN'T WAIT UNTIL YOU PEOPLE GET OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL, WHERE YOU'LL FIND THE REAL PROBLEMS IN LIFE. WHO KNOWS, MAYBE YOU'LL INHERIT YOUR OWN, BUT TRY STANDING BACK TO LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE INSTEAD OF LOSING FOCUS ON THE TINY DETAILS AND THEORETICS. 
A. WE_ ARE _INDEED UNDER SUBSTANDARD LEADERSHIP RIGHT NOW, ON A COVERT LEVEL OF CORRUPTION...
B. THESE ARGUMENTS HAVE BEEN THROWN BACK AND FORTH AMONGST AMERICANS FOR THE LAST SIXTY YEARS....
C. DEBATING THESE ARGUMENTS AMONG WRITERS, AS INSPIRATIONAL AS THEY MAY BE, WON'T HELP A THING AND WON'T MAKE A CHANGE.


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## Garrettpwnsall

I'm currently searching Ebay for a cheap, good keyboard to send to "the_weird_turn_pro88" because apparantly his caps key is stuck on his current keyboard.


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## JoannaMac

The Backward OX said:


> I wonder _why_ this is so?
> (this is me being a smartarse again)



Well, if one fifth of them can't even place their own country on a world map, other countries haven't a hope either.
Only Americans have ever asked me stupid questions like

Is Australia next to India?
No wait, it's next to Africa right?
To you have telephones everywhere in Australia?
Do you have internet in Australia?
Can everyone play the didjeridoo?

When ever they ask me questions like this, I tell them that we have rubber flaps on our doors to keep the snakes out, that we have public kangeroo feeding stations because we really care about local flora and fauna, that koalas live in my garden........... and they ALWAYS BELIEVE ME!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't worry, I know all Americans aren't ignorant, and heck, Aussies aren't always the brightest bunch either.


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## Hodge

Dude. People in the U.S. still think Alaskans live in igloos and that polar bears live as far south as I am.

If they can't get Alaska right, how can you expect them to get Australia right? The only thing you guys have going is that Outback Steakhouse and Foster's have run large ad campaigns on TV to inform everyone that Aussies are slim, tan, happy, and not afraid to frolic in bikinis and shorts to show off their killer abs and large breasts.


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## The Backward OX

Garrettpwnsall said:


> I'm currently searching Ebay for a cheap, good keyboard to send to "the_weird_turn_pro88" because apparantly his caps key is stuck on his current keyboard.


Here's a better idea - send him off to the Marianas with a suggestion he and mammamaia interbreed. The resultant off-spring might strike a happy medium.


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## The Backward OX

JoannaMac said:


> Well, if one fifth of them can't even place their own country on a world map, other countries haven't a hope either.
> Only Americans have ever asked me stupid questions like
> 
> Is Australia next to India?
> No wait, it's next to Africa right?
> To you have telephones everywhere in Australia?
> Do you have internet in Australia?
> Can everyone play the didjeridoo?
> 
> When ever they ask me questions like this, I tell them that we have rubber flaps on our doors to keep the snakes out, that we have public kangeroo feeding stations because we really care about local flora and fauna, that koalas live in my garden........... and they ALWAYS BELIEVE ME!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Don't worry, I know all Americans aren't ignorant, and heck, Aussies aren't always the brightest bunch either.


Hang about! There ARE koalas in MY garden. And in the park down the street, and in the neighbours' gardens.


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## The Backward OX

JoannaMac said:


> heck, Aussies aren't always the brightest bunch either.


You got that right. One of them dropped herself right in it last night on this site, and as a result is permanently banned.

I'll miss all her foul-mouthed epithets.


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## The Backward OX

the_weird_turn_pro88 said:


> CURSE HAS STARTED SOMETHING THAT I NOW SEE ISN'T WORTH THE READING AND WRITING, SO HERE'S MY _FINAL THOUGHT_: THE ESSAY, IF YOU CAN CALL A PARAGRAPH AND A HALF AN ESSAY, WAS BOTH REDUNDANT AND UNNECESSARY. I CAN'T WAIT UNTIL YOU PEOPLE GET OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL, WHERE YOU'LL FIND THE REAL PROBLEMS IN LIFE. WHO KNOWS, MAYBE YOU'LL INHERIT YOUR OWN, BUT TRY STANDING BACK TO LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE INSTEAD OF LOSING FOCUS ON THE TINY DETAILS AND THEORETICS.
> A. WE_ ARE _INDEED UNDER SUBSTANDARD LEADERSHIP RIGHT NOW, ON A COVERT LEVEL OF CORRUPTION...
> B. THESE ARGUMENTS HAVE BEEN THROWN BACK AND FORTH AMONGST AMERICANS FOR THE LAST SIXTY YEARS....
> C. DEBATING THESE ARGUMENTS AMONG WRITERS, AS INSPIRATIONAL AS THEY MAY BE, WON'T HELP A THING AND WON'T MAKE A CHANGE.


*HEY MR MAGOO THERE'S A RULE THAT SAYS POSTS IN ALL CAPS WILL BE DELETED.*


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## Olly Buckle

I know Nixon got a pardon, but impeaching him was quite an achievement for their system. Can't think of another country offhand that has fixed a rotten boss like that without major upheaval Ox.


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## JoannaMac

Olly Buckle said:


> I know Nixon got a pardon, but impeaching him was quite an achievement for their system. Can't think of another country offhand that has fixed a rotten boss like that without major upheaval Ox.



I can't either. Americans are good like that. They seem to have great faith in their system and when they realize it's been violated, they really get up in arms about it. I've been hearing about neighbourhood meetings where thousands of people turned up to talk about impeaching Gonzales. It seems to have worked.


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## JoannaMac

Hodge said:


> Dude. People in the U.S. still think Alaskans live in igloos and that polar bears live as far south as I am.
> 
> If they can't get Alaska right, how can you expect them to get Australia right? The only thing you guys have going is that Outback Steakhouse and Foster's have run large ad campaigns on TV to inform everyone that Aussies are slim, tan, happy, and not afraid to frolic in bikinis and shorts to show off their killer abs and large breasts.



I didn't even know what an 'Outback Steakhouse' was until I got to Korea  I'm sure there's plenty of Australian's out there dying to ask you about the igloos and polar bears, but they won't ask for fear of looking stupid, especially given the amount of stereotypes people believe about us.

It is true though that the sun has fried our brains to a certain extent and that drinking beer is a national pass time. One in three people gets skin cancer so there aren't so many people running around without clothes on these days. In some places children are not allowed outside at lunchtime without a long sleeved shirt, a hat and sunscreen. Insurance companies won't insure outdoor workers unless they are protected adequately from the sun. The hole in the ozone layer is such that there is an actual line beyond which things won't grow.

End of first lesson 'Australia 101'


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## JoannaMac

The Backward OX said:


> Hang about! There ARE koalas in MY garden. And in the park down the street, and in the neighbours' gardens.



That doesn't count, you live in the bush!


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## the_weird_turn_pro88

The Backward OX said:


> *HEY MR MAGOO THERE'S A RULE THAT SAYS POSTS IN ALL CAPS WILL BE DELETED.*


 
Try reading the message instead of looking at the letters before you criticize me. I don't know how Aussies feel about America, but my statements truly don't apply to anyone outside the U.S. Therefore, I COULD GIVE A DAMN!


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## Old Man

They shouldn't force you, but you should. I don't see why people can't get off of their lazy asses and stand for half a minute and be thankful that they are allowed in the country. I'd stand for another country's flag if I were in the country, as respect for the place, thanks for allowing me there, and because I'd want them to do the same. You don't even have to say anthing. But you should at least stand and respect what it stands for, with or without the "God" part. People not from America who don't stand wouldn't want someone to disrespect what their country stands for, so why would they not stand for our's. I don't see why it's so hard for someone to stand up.


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