# What's wrong with cussing?



## ziodice (Sep 8, 2014)

I've had a few readers tell me they don't want to read my work (in this case it was a short story I was just showing some of the people I knew at school) because of a character swearing a lot. Now, I understand that they're viewed in society as "rude" but it was a "rude" character, changing a character or his actions based on mine or others' values almost seems...like...as someone with strong feelings for storytelling, _wrong._ Simply _wrong_ to change a character based on social values. Of course, I'm also of the opinion that cuss words are simply a part of the English language, good as any other. Thoughts?


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## Deleted member 56686 (Sep 8, 2014)

My first thread here was in fact about using profanity in writing as it would pertain to character speech. The gist of most of the responses were to never use curse words if it is just for shock value but if it is something your character would say (this would also include writing in the first person) that you should certainly write such words. I find that to be pretty solid advice.


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## Bishop (Sep 8, 2014)

Do not change your character to fit the sensibilities of a squeamish reader. If they can't stomach a big-boy word or two, they need to read more books. Or better books. People curse, it happens, if it's realistic to the character, it must be put into the story.

That being said, there is a line where "realistic" can cross over into "annoying". But this requires a LOT of cursing.


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## ziodice (Sep 8, 2014)

Bishop said:


> Do not change your character to fit the sensibilities of a squeamish reader. If they can't stomach a big-boy word or two, they need to read more books. Or better books. People curse, it happens, if it's realistic to the character, it must be put into the story.
> 
> That being said, there is a line where "realistic" can cross over into "annoying". But this requires a LOT of cursing.



I don't fucking know, shit. Maybe the fucking most realistic fucking thing is to say fuck more in every fucking sentence, right? Haha.


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## Sc0pe (Sep 8, 2014)

If you feel you are being true to your character then keep it. If your just doing it because it sounds edgy then maybe review it. I have made a few character's that swear but it was only because I felt it suited there background.


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## Sam (Sep 8, 2014)

What's a 'cuss'? I believe the word you're looking for is curse. Or swear. 'Cuss' sounds like something a child does. 

What's wrong with cursing . . . or swearing? Nothing, _per se_, except that if you drop ten expletives per page, they (a) lose their impact, and (b) really piss -- pun intended -- people off. They should be used within reason. Once they become gratuitous, they become pointless.


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## InstituteMan (Sep 8, 2014)

ziodice said:


> I've had a few readers tell me they don't want to read my work (in this case it was a short story *I was just showing some of the people I knew at school*) because of a character swearing a lot. Now, I understand that they're viewed in society as "rude" but it was a "rude" character, changing a character or his actions based on mine or others' values almost seems...like...as someone with strong feelings for storytelling, _wrong._ Simply _wrong_ to change a character based on social values. Of course, I'm also of the opinion that cuss words are simply a part of the English language, good as any other. Thoughts?



I bolded the part that I suspect is your problem. Don't get me wrong, you may have had way to much profanity in there, but it sounds like you were enlisting people in a setting where, even if they otherwise wouldn't be bothered by the language, they wouldn't want to act like they were okay with it, for fear of detention or whatnot. Beyond that, I suspect some of your readers may have been less than experienced and less than mature. Plus, not to bag on your friends, but friends rarely make good beta readers (girlfriends/boyfriends/spouses are often worse).


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## ziodice (Sep 8, 2014)

Sam said:


> What's a 'cuss'? I believe the word you're looking for is curse. Or swear. 'Cuss' sounds like something a child does.



Cuss is the term I was looking for, certainly. It may be slang derived from "curse." Personally I think swear sounds the most childish of them all.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Sep 9, 2014)

ziodice said:


> Of course, I'm also of the opinion that cuss words are simply a part of the English language, good as any other.



I've never understood this argument.  "It's just another word to me."  If it's just another word, as good as any other, why use it? Why use words likely to offend when there are plenty of alternatives, just as good or better, that are respectable and don't make you sound like a teenager with no better way to express himself?

If you're using the words intentionally to shock and provoke, you're telling the world either, "I don't trust myself to properly convey my feelings without these words," or "I don't know of a better way to express myself besides being blatantly offensive."  Both are lazy.  If you're using the words because you don't think there's anything wrong with them, then what's the point?

Getting back to the rest of your post, why do you feel compelled to have this character use profanity? Do you not know of any other way to show a rude character without cursing? I understand not wanting to "soften" the character for the sake of other peoples' morality, but "he's rude so he curses" seems like pretty flimsy characterization.  To me, it's on par with having a graphic sex scene so the reader will know two characters are attracted to each other.  If that's the only way an author knows to show that, they've got a long way to go.


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## tabasco5 (Sep 9, 2014)

I don't mind a few sprinkled cuss words if it fits with the character or is used tastefully, but I have a pretty low tolerance for usage overall. If the first chapter has more than one or two, or if there's an F bomb, I'm done with the book and the author. 

As a rule, I don't use them in my writing, but can remember two separate instances where they were required for impact. 

But my advice would be to write how you want to write and accept the consequences.


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## shadowwalker (Sep 9, 2014)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> I've never understood this argument.  "It's just another word to me."  If it's just another word, as good as any other, why use it? Why use words likely to offend when there are plenty of alternatives, just as good or better, that are respectable and don't make you sound like a teenager with no better way to express himself?



Because "f**k off" is more powerful than "I don't like you". If a reader only wants to read "respectable" words (whatever those are supposed to be), then they shouldn't read certain books. But if I'm reading a book about a trashy detective who finds his girlfriend murdered, "Gosh darn that killer" is not going to fly.


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## MysticalMind (Sep 9, 2014)

I don't see what the problem is. Although I don't use such words, I can see why an author would include them. They are acceptable for realism purposes, as others have said.


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## Jeko (Sep 9, 2014)

I tend to find that strong language in a novel is like setting off fireworks; they're volatile words, and they stand out - unless your story is a whole fireworks display like _Trainspotting.

_The one thing you should be careful of is preventing your characters from sounding like themselves. Not that you should never do it; a lot of adult heroes in kids movies are idealistically presented because they don't even say 'crap'. But a lot of writers either fail to write ruder characters by never letting their lips loose, or fail to write ruder characters because every other word they say can't be broadcasted before 9:00pm.


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## Kyle R (Sep 9, 2014)

Cursing can serve many purposes. It doesn't always have to be a bad thing, either.

Let's say you have a character whose flaw is being too uptight and too afraid to break any rules. They live their life in a self-designed shell, worried about the repercussions of any sort of spontaneous, out-of-character action.

Then we write a scene where the character (encouraged by the new best friend) stands in a field and swears at the top of her lungs. Just lets loose. A full on screaming swear-fest about all the things that upset her in her life, a rant that echoes across the flatlands and ricochets against the tree-line, sending birds into the sky.

Afterward, when our flawed character, panting and red-faced, cracks a smile, the other character tells her, "Feels good, doesn't it? It's okay to come unraveled every once in a while. You don't always have to be perfect."

Here's an instance where swearing would not only be applicable, but _useful_. A key element of the scene.

Swearing—just like violence, or sex, or suspense (or whatever)—has its time and place. There's nothing automatically wrong with it. It just depends on how you use it.

Sometimes, it'd be wrong _not_ to use it. :encouragement:


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## Bishop (Sep 9, 2014)

tabasco5 said:


> If the first chapter has more than one or two, or if there's an F bomb, I'm done with the book and the author.



How is this possible? ONE F bomb or two of any curse, and you bar the book from your own eyes, and never touch the author again? So you've never read Mark Twain? Stephen King? Definitely not Chuck Palahniuk. I'm not saying these authors are the end-all, be-all, but censorship of this caliber is astonishing.

How can a simple "holy shit" be enough to censor oneself? Literature is a voice, a voice of truisms of life that cannot exist in reality because reality is simply too strange. Lessons are taught in books. Experiences are had. Lessons and experiences that cannot be gotten anywhere else, and the statements that are made by a story are infinitely stronger than personal experience for their timelessness and universality. To blind yourself, _intentionally _blind yourself from the vast array of fiction because of a few realistic and character-based words is the basis for censorship as a whole.

Now, I'm not saying that you're advocating that all books with curse words be banned. Obviously, you're dealing with your own personal preferences and that's fine. But there are people that don't. People who are so afraid of _words_ and their perceived impact that they're willing to make decisions for other people because of their sensibilities. Puritanical purging of anything because of a few simple words is just beyond me.

We are adults. These are the words that we use to relate anger, frustration, fear... and a range of other emotions. I agree that there is sometimes a petty overuse in some mediums, including literature. But to limit yourself so because of a few poor writers seems like literary auto-cannibalism.


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## Bruno Spatola (Sep 9, 2014)

I think calling someone a waste of space is worse than calling them a dickhead. Swearwords are merely stronger synonyms, to me. I know people who swear every few words, and that is annoying, but only as annoying as people who say 'like' every three seconds. That's just repetition. If I were to turn that person into a character, however, I wouldn't edit myself in the least. _People swear_. It's a thing. Some do it too much, but they're real. So is racism. I have no problem using the word 'nigger' in a story, frequently or infrequently. It's a term that's used to dehumanize, and I'll use it accordingly. If it's gratuitous, that also doesn't mean it's necessarily wrong, whatever 'wrong' means.

If you're offended by swearing, then that's tough. Close the book; change the channel; delete the song; shove cotton wool in your ears. Of all the evils in the world, it's _so_ far down the list -- probably on par with tutting, or shouting.

Just write your story, honestly; you can't worry about people overreacting. Half of all the art that's been produced could well have been deemed forbidden, otherwise. I'm not saying opposing views are born out of ignorance, but censorship doesn't always have a place in art. That's my argument.


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## Schrody (Sep 9, 2014)

ziodice said:


> I don't fucking know, shit. Maybe the fucking most realistic fucking thing is to say fuck more in every fucking sentence, right? Haha.



Don't mind swearing in books, but please, cover your swears with * here, there might be minors reading this thread


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## Fivetide (Sep 9, 2014)

My biggest quandary is, what happens if my mum reads my books?

  I use every day language and basically write as if I’m talking to a friend. So swearing is just part of trying to get the reader to emphasise with the book and relate to the characters.


_*However if my mother does read it I expect I’ll walk out of the her house with the imprint of a bible on my forehead, although I know my farther will enjoy the saucy bits lol _


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## Tettsuo (Sep 9, 2014)

Profanity is often the fastest way to get a point across because it's not only insulting, but also shows a particular level of anger, disrespect, upbringing and class.

"I'll fuckin' murder you and your bitch!"

To attempt to express the above sentence's essence without profanity would be extremely difficult and honestly, not nearly as effective.  In just seven words, the sentence not only gives the reader the intense feeling the character is expressing, but also a certain level of callous disrespect towards the target and the target's spouse.

So, we have a large number of writers here... Go ahead and try to preserve this sentence's essence without profanity.


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## Fivetide (Sep 9, 2014)

Schrody said:


> Don't mind swearing in books, but please, cover your swears with * here, there might be minors reading this thread



  Well said Schrody, maybe books should get warnings in the future, at least then the buyer can make a more objective choice, but as the forum is in the public domain personally I would like to see self-censorship, not for my sake I couldn’t care less, but as Schrody points out , it’s not just adults that browse the content.


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## T.S.Bowman (Sep 9, 2014)

Tettsuo said:


> *"I'll fuckin' murder you and your bitch!"*
> 
> So, we have a large number of writers here... Go ahead and try to preserve this sentence's essence without profanity.



Keep the essence of the sentence without the swearing? I'm game...

Jimmy looked at the man in the chair and said "After everything you've done to me you expect me to show mercy. Well it isn't gonna happen. You and your woman are both dead. I'm going to make you watch me cut her throat and then I am going to put a bullet in your head."

Not my best work. But I think it conveys the message and callousness without the foul language.


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## Terry D (Sep 9, 2014)

Schrody said:


> Don't mind swearing in books, but please, cover your swears with * here, there might be minors reading this thread



Using asterisks doesn't change the intent or meaning of the word used. Any thirteen year old reading this site will see s**t just as it was intended. Masking profanity is a useless exercise. If you worry about how it will be received... don't use it.


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## Bishop (Sep 9, 2014)

Tettsuo said:


> "I'll fuckin' murder you and your bitch!"





T.S.Bowman said:


> Jimmy looked at the man in the chair and said "After everything you've done to me you expect me to show mercy. Well it isn't gonna happen. You and your woman are both dead. I'm going to make you watch me cut her throat and then I am going to put a bullet in your head."



See, while both of these are fine in their own right, they conjure up very, very different characters in my head. One is more educated and more verbose than the other. One sounds like a leader, the other sounds like a follower. One sounds cruel, the other just sounds pissed off in the moment. Etc.


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## Deleted member 56686 (Sep 9, 2014)

Tettsuo said:


> Profanity is often the fastest way to get a point across because it's not only insulting, but also shows a particular level of anger, disrespect, upbringing and class.
> 
> "I'll @#$^*  murder you and your bitch!"
> 
> ...




I'll give it a shot

"I'm going to fricassee you both you and your lovely lady. How do like those Apples?"

Sorry about the &#@# but I kind of agree with Schrody as far as the posts go.


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## Sam (Sep 9, 2014)

Bishop said:


> How is this possible? ONE F bomb or two of any curse, and you bar the book from your own eyes, and never touch the author again? So you've never read Mark Twain? Stephen King? Definitely not Chuck Palahniuk. I'm not saying these authors are the end-all, be-all, but censorship of this caliber is astonishing.
> 
> How can a simple "holy shit" be enough to censor oneself? Literature is a voice, a voice of truisms of life that cannot exist in reality because reality is simply too strange. Lessons are taught in books. Experiences are had. Lessons and experiences that cannot be gotten anywhere else, and the statements that are made by a story are infinitely stronger than personal experience for their timelessness and universality. To blind yourself, _intentionally _blind yourself from the vast array of fiction because of a few realistic and character-based words is the basis for censorship as a whole.
> 
> ...



My father curses like a sailor. It's one of the side effects of working on construction sites his entire life. Half the time, he doesn't know he's doing it, because it's part of the lexicon of construction. 

However, when he reads a book (which is often) it irritates the hell out of him when he comes on profanity of any kind. Cursing has a way of breaking the fourth wall, so to speak, and shattering the suspension of belief one has when reading. When you consider that narrative prose in general tends to avoid expletives, you start to understand how much impact 'f**k' and other such words have on a reader when they _are _used. They can take you out of the story almost as quickly as they can put you into the mind of a character. Anything that takes you out of a story is something that should not be sprinkled around willy-nilly, but used for a reason and a purpose. 

When they aren't, it becomes a problem.


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## Terry D (Sep 9, 2014)

Sam said:


> What's a 'cuss'? I believe the word you're looking for is curse. Or swear. 'Cuss' sounds like something a child does.
> 
> What's wrong with cursing . . . or swearing? Nothing, _per se_, except that if you drop ten expletives per page, they (a) lose their impact, and (b) really piss -- pun intended -- people off. They should be used within reason. Once they become gratuitous, they become pointless.



"Cuss" is a synonym of curse; probably an Americanism, but it's found in most dictionaries (I don't currently have access to my OED, but I'll bet it's in there too).

I have no problem with swearing in novels. I actually don't think about it much when I write. If the character swears, he swears. I don't use many curse words in narration, but Ive read writers who do and have had no problem with it. My elderly sister-in-law bought a copy of my book and was a bit shocked at the language used, but she enjoyed the book. That's the whole point.


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## Schrody (Sep 9, 2014)

Fivetide said:


> Well said Schrody, maybe books should get warnings in the future, at least then the buyer can make a more objective choice, but as the forum is in the public domain personally I would like to see self-censorship, not for my sake I couldn’t care less, but as Schrody points out , it’s not just adults that browse the content.



No, I'm not for censorship of any kind, but then again, you wouldn't cuss in a children's book, right? Meaning, not only adults visits this forum, and we all know that they've already been exposed to swears, and they would probably use it too much because they think it's cool. I don't want to be a hypocrite - I swear once in a while, but always with moderation. I think (some) kids are seeing role models in us, and we mustn't disappoint them. Of course, I might be wrong, and the world has gone to hell already. 



Terry D said:


> Using asterisks doesn't change the intent or meaning of the word used. Any thirteen year old reading this site will see s**t just as it was intended. Masking profanity is a useless exercise. If you worry about how it will be received... don't use it.



True, everybody knows what you actually said, but I think a little decency would hurt  Or a disclaimer.


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## LeeC (Sep 9, 2014)

Reading Terry D's sig, I asked my own GR what she thought, and this is her answer, followed by the qualification that she prefers animal stories   

Fictional writing mimics life to a significant degree, even in imaginative fantasy. In such, various settings and characters are developed to give a storyline a three dimensional effect, just as shape and shading are used in drawing and painting.

Flushing out a character is accomplished with descriptive text and/or personality traits which may include manner of speech. In differentiating a character's speech; tone, dialect, word usage, and so on are used. If one of the characteristics of a character's speech is using profanity, then within what is necessary to portray that character for the furtherance of the story, swearing is an artistic tool. 

Beyond that it's use is an indication of the writer's level of maturity, in excess suggesting a need of the author to attract attention (commonly backfiring), and/or to add shock value to writing that is otherwise lacking.


"Life does not cease to be funny when people die, any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh."  ~  George Bernard Shaw


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## tabasco5 (Sep 9, 2014)

Bishop said:


> So you've never read Mark Twain? Stephen King? Definitely not Chuck Palahniuk.
> 
> I do read Twain - I don't consider him to be vulgar, and any cursing he uses is simple, tasteful, and easy to swallow.  I don't read Palahniuk for the particular reason of vulgar language.  I have actually tried - I picked up Fight Club with the intentions of reading it, and quickly discarded it.  I've read a few short stories of King, but have not been impressed.  I haven't read any of his books because I've just never been interested.  If I never finish a King or Palahniuk book, I find it no great loss.
> 
> ...



Really what I am trying to convey is a sense of degree or intention more than a specific word count.  That isn't to say that I absolutely positively will not go beyond the first chapter for X number of cuss words, but that I can usually get a feel for how the author writes after a chapter, and if a story is too vulgar I put it down.

And I really don't feel like I'm cheating myself or missing out, because my list of to-read books is already so long I will never finish it.  To strike a few off the list because of language issues just makes it that much easier.


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## Bishop (Sep 9, 2014)

tabasco5 said:


> ... if a story is too vulgar I put it down.



A story can be vulgar, but vulgarity of character is not vulgarity of story. Ugliness and cursing, vulgarity and darkness are all parts of life as we know it. To weed out fiction that merely shines truth to those moments is to discard so much of the human experience that is captured. 

I read for two reasons, the lesser of which is to become a better writer. The primary reason is to experience things through the text that I will never, in a billion years, have the opportunity to experience on my own. By purging myself of any cursing, or any other stain of humanity that seeps through the text, I am denying myself that experience and shrouding reality in a cloak of comfortable puppies. To each his own, but to me understanding human behavior and understanding the true depth of fiction both require a writer that is, first and foremost, honest. Honest with his characters, honest with his story, honest with himself or herself. 

I never say the word 'bitch' to a woman. Ever. It's just a quirk of mine, that I honestly and truly believe that word to be beyond degrading for absolutely no reason other than petty patriarchal lines. I similarly never use the 'c' word. But if I ran across them in text, I would understand so much about the character speaking those words, most noticeably how they differ from me. Their attitudes become clearer in relation to mine. I connect by disconnecting. If instead, the character had used a tamer word, the connection would likely be far weaker and my suspension of disbelief would break down. The illusion would be shattered when the character screams, "Stop being such a ninny-hammer!" 

Cursing exists. To try and ignore it in fiction is the equivalent of trying to ignore any other aspect of our world, of our experience.


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## Folcro (Sep 9, 2014)

As it pertains to my taste and style, cursing is something added for flavor, to make a character realistic. It is, after all, something most people do, even if we hide it (rightfully) in our professional lives. Go to any open college campus, make it a prestigious one, and sit next to a group of students and tally their expletives. It will make you wish we taught our children more adjectives.

To me, swearing is like nudity. I understand it's part of life, and why it is included in works intended to seem "real." But personally, I can't recall one time, and I'm a critical man, where I saw a line and said "There should probably have been a curse there."

On the other hand, an executive developed to be courteous and respectful to his staff suddenly tells his secretary to, well, *expletive*, can make for a powerful and frightening moment.

And, alas, sometimes I run out of adjectives myself.


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## tabasco5 (Sep 9, 2014)

Bishop said:


> I never say the word 'bitch' to a woman. Ever. It's just a quirk of mine, that I honestly and truly believe that word to be beyond degrading for absolutely no reason other than petty patriarchal lines. I similarly never use the 'c' word. But if I ran across them in text, I would understand so much about the character speaking those words, most noticeably how they differ from me. Their attitudes become clearer in relation to mine. I connect by disconnecting. If instead, the character had used a tamer word, the connection would likely be far weaker and my suspension of disbelief would break down. The illusion would be shattered when the character screams, "Stop being such a ninny-hammer!"
> 
> Lol, the illusion would be shattered!  Don't do it!
> 
> Cursing exists. To try and ignore it in fiction is the equivalent of trying to ignore any other aspect of our world, of our experience.



I don't try and ignore it, I just do ignore it.  And I have found the practice has improved my reading experience profoundly.  I actually ignore quite a bit more than cussing and feel that my reading experience is moving along fine.  Then again, I would be fine with reading only a handful of books for my entire life if I got to choose them.  If, however, I ever feel the need to down a few cussies, I know they will still be around, and I know where to find them.


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## Tettsuo (Sep 9, 2014)

Folcro said:


> *As it pertains to my taste and style, cursing is something added for flavor, to make a character realistic.* It is, after all, something most people do, even if we hide it (rightfully) in our professional lives. Go to any open college campus, make it a prestigious one, and sit next to a group of students and tally their expletives. It will make you wish we taught our children more adjectives.
> 
> To me, swearing is like nudity. I understand it's part of life, and why it is included in works intended to seem "real." But personally, I can't recall one time, and I'm a critical man, where I saw a line and said "There should probably have been a curse there."
> 
> ...


I disagree.  Profanity and it's use tells us who these people are.  You create a character that's a college professor, then it would be reasonable for the character to not use profanity.  If you create a character that's a street thug, but you never has him use an expletives, in any circumstances, that's a tough pill for the reader to swallow (without some explanation as to why the character doesn't use any profanity).


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## InstituteMan (Sep 9, 2014)

Kyle R said:


> Cursing can serve many purposes. It doesn't always have to be a bad thing, either.
> 
> Let's say you have a character whose flaw is being too uptight and too afraid to break any rules. They live their life in a self-designed shell, worried about the repercussions of any sort of spontaneous, out-of-character action.
> 
> ...



This approach was used cinematically in Saved! (great movie, btw). The scene where Mary stood before the huge and incredibly cheesy Jesus cutout and hurled ever escalating profanities at it was a powerful moment, indicating the beginning of her transition from an immature, rules based faith to a mature faith prioritizing love over rules and allowing room for doubts. Even as a non-believer, it was a powerful moment and a valuable transition. It wouldn't have worked without the profanity.


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## ziodice (Sep 9, 2014)

I suppose as a writer and a member of the internet it was dumb of me to think I'd get a consensus of yeses or nos.


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## InstituteMan (Sep 9, 2014)

ziodice said:


> I suppose as a writer and a member of the internet it was dumb of me to think I'd get a consensus of yeses or nos.



You're figuring this shit out, Z! :eagerness:


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## Deleted member 56686 (Sep 9, 2014)

When you have more than two thousand active members you are going to have different opinions. Otherwise we might as well be robots.

What you need to do ultimately is do or write whats best for you.


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## EmmaSohan (Sep 9, 2014)

ziodice said:


> I suppose as a writer and a member of the internet it was dumb of me to think I'd get a consensus of yeses or nos.



I think you want "would have been" rather than "was". Grammar, young man!

But it seemed pretty close to me. Everyone wants to be able to let a character swear to make that character realistic or to show emotion. Some worry about that, but that could depend on genre. Perhaps everyone draws the line at a slightly different place -- but we already agreed on that a long time ago.


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## ppsage (Sep 9, 2014)

If the only thing you do to make your characters _real_ is make them cuss .......? Profanity is at best icing on already well made gingerbread. At worst...........?


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## T.S.Bowman (Sep 10, 2014)

InstituteMan said:


> This approach was used cinematically in Saved! (great movie, btw). The scene where Mary stood before the huge and incredibly cheesy Jesus cutout and hurled ever escalating profanities at it was a powerful moment, indicating the beginning of her transition from an immature, rules based faith to a mature faith prioritizing love over rules and allowing room for doubts. Even as a non-believer, it was a powerful moment and a valuable transition. It wouldn't have worked without the profanity.



But, for every scene like that one, there is another like the one in the movie Paul where that same kind of transition is supposed to take place but, thanks to the ham handed writing and the influence of Seth Rogen, it falls completely flat and after a couple of minutes just falls into absurdity.

Cursing/swearing/cussing whatever you want to call it is just like any other writing device. It's effectiveness is determined by the abilities of the writer.


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## Poet of Gore (Sep 10, 2014)

Fivetide said:


> My biggest quandary is, what happens if my mum reads my books?
> 
> I use every day language and basically write as if I’m talking to a friend. So swearing is just part of trying to get the reader to emphasise with the book and relate to the characters.
> 
> ...



please tell me this is a joke. if you are going to censor your writing because of your mom reading it--just.. i can't fathom it. i would say don't bother, but that is not true as evident on here that there are a large number of prunes on here. a few dried apricots and we could drop all the f bombs we want. shoot, even some dates in the bowl and we are saying words George Carlin talked about. But damn prunes get up in you and mess up your whole digestive track and what not.

edit: i seemed to have forgotten what words mean for a few moments back there. gee willickers, wally, i was all messed up. I meant to say "prudes" and not "prunes", okay, Wallie. I didn't mean nuttin by it, i swear. can't we just go to Eddie Haskel's and play some ball? i got this new mitt i want to try out.


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## Arcopitcairn (Sep 10, 2014)

ziodice said:


> I've had a few readers tell me they don't want to read my work (in this case it was a short story I was just showing some of the people I knew at school) because of a character swearing a lot. Now, I understand that they're viewed in society as "rude" but it was a "rude" character, changing a character or his actions based on mine or others' values almost seems...like...as someone with strong feelings for storytelling, _wrong._ Simply _wrong_ to change a character based on social values. Of course, I'm also of the opinion that cuss words are simply a part of the English language, good as any other. Thoughts?



Write what you want. For you. So that you like it. Use what words you like to use. Nothing else matters, and is a waste of time worrying about.


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## Sam (Sep 10, 2014)

EmmaSohan said:


> I think you want "would have been" rather than "was". Grammar, young man!



No, he wants 'was'.


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## Seedy M. (Sep 10, 2014)

I want my writing to express life and actuality. People swear, in real life. They, as a result, swear in my work.
When I am with certain people in public and they swear like drunken sailors it embarrasses me, but when I'm in public with "Jesus freak" friends, they embarrass me as much. Either extreme is off-putting _to me_.
I try to make my work fit life and reality. Trying to make it fit your views or someone else's is to deny reality (though I am perfectly aware that reality, like truth, is situational).
If you think you're going to please everyone in anything, you are 'way out in oogy-googy land. Ain't gonna happen, Charlie!


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## Bishop (Sep 10, 2014)

ppsage said:


> If the only thing you do to make your characters _real_ is make them cuss .......? Profanity is at best icing on already well made gingerbread. At worst...........?



I don't think anyone was advocating that the only thing used to make a character real is to curse. We're just saying that if a character is, say, a sailor, they should curse in the text as much as a sailor would. It's one element among thousands that can be used to bring depth and realism to a character.


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## Schrody (Sep 10, 2014)

ziodice said:


> I suppose as a writer and a member of the internet it was dumb of me to think I'd get a consensus of yeses or nos.



It's hard to expect that on a forum full of writers


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## Dawson (Sep 12, 2014)

My main character's mom just died a horrific death in front of her, and my friend was like, "Can you, like, not have her curse?" 

I didn't reply to that comment lol. 

It's like... You can be really level-headed. But if you're an average 16-year-old girl, you're going to curse at times, as the narrator. Especially if you smell copious amounts of blood, and oh f*ck, there's mom, convulsing on the floor, choking on her own blood. Lovely. 

What would you rather I say? "Gosh darn it, that really rustles my feathers! Jee willikers!" 

No. That's not the type of character she is. That's not how she talks. And it's not appropriate to the situation. 

Almost anyone (unless you're like Mormon, or you're like, 5) would curse in that situation, I think. 

(EDIT: But then again, when you have people being drawn-and-quartered, and forced autocannibalism, I think that profanity is the least of the worries in my books when it come to squeamish readers lawl.)


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## Terry D (Sep 12, 2014)

People sometimes forget that the dialogue we write is not supposed to be a carbon copy of the way real people speak; no one would want to read that, seriously. Our job is to create a realistic impression of natural dialogue. With care, skill, and a good ear that can be done without using every curse word that would come out of a real character's mouth. Much of my book is set in the world of dog-fighting, and street gangs from East St. Louis play a large part. While the 'f' bomb is dropped a number of times, I assure you it's not used with near the frequency it would be in real life.


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## Jeko (Sep 12, 2014)

> But if you're an average 16-year-old girl, you're going to curse at times, as the narrator. Especially if you smell copious amounts of blood, and oh f*ck, there's mom, convulsing on the floor, choking on her own blood. Lovely.



In this example, the problem with the f-word is that it's something a person the character's age would say _without_ the horrific stimulus, so the word might not add much to the intensity of the scene. If a sweary teenager was truly shocked and revulsed by something, they'd be more likely to be speechless, IMO. But that's because I've never seen a seful use of the f-word in an intense scene or situation; more often, the word falls flat on my ears.


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## Poet of Gore (Sep 12, 2014)

Dawson said:


> My main character's mom just died a horrific death in front of her, and my friend was like, "Can you, like, not have her curse?"
> 
> I didn't reply to that comment lol.
> 
> ...



look, if Beaver Cleaver would not say it then do not put it in the book. please, think of the children.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Sep 12, 2014)

Poet of Gore said:


> look, if Beaver Cleaver would not say it then do not put it in the book. please, think of the children.



What's ironic is that "Beaver Cleaver" has got to be the most unintentionally (or not?) innuendo-ridden name ever.


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## shadowwalker (Sep 12, 2014)

Poet of Gore said:


> look, if Beaver Cleaver would not say it then do not put it in the book. please, think of the children.



I ain't writin' for children... :ChainGunSmiley:


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## theoddone (Sep 13, 2014)

I suppose it comes down to personal taste. I, personally, have absolutely NO issues with writing about profanity. My stories are often graphic in many ways because I prefer to write naturally. In real life, when people curse, there is no secret force that blocks it out. You hear it exactly as it is. Character cursing is a great tool for development because it helps show mood and tells you what kind of character that person is. I would only use cursing in character quotes, of course; otherwise, it is unnecessary. You don't need the f word to describe a tree.


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## count58 (Sep 18, 2014)

Cussing ... really depends. If it's a character ... maybe few times are enough.
But if you have it in any page of your book, for me, I wouldn't like it.
Who would want to be cursed anyway?


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## MzSnowleopard (Sep 18, 2014)

I personally draw the line at excessive use of F-bombs.  This is why I can't read Clancy's Bear and Dragon. 

IMO it is the most vile, repugnant, obscene word in existence... Thus the power of this word.

That said-

I also believe that a well placed F-bomb works wonders. Like the scene in X-men First Class when they walk into the bar and find Logan. 
Or in Robin Hood Prince of Thieves - the scene where 2 men catapult over the wall- Will Scarlet says "F' me, he made it."
You can barely tell the he says it, but it's there.
Or those catchy phrases like in Die Hard "Yippy, kai, ay mother f'er" (however it's spelled)

With books if you have an 80,000 word script and 1,000 F-bombs- you've watered down the power of the word.

My point is that f-bombs for the sake if f-bombs is one thing. It's a well placed f-bomb that'll be memorable for the shock-value.

This is just my opinion


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## Gamer_2k4 (Sep 18, 2014)

MzSnowleopard said:


> I personally draw the line at excessive use of F-bombs.  This is why I can't read Clancy's Bear and Dragon.
> 
> IMO it is the most vile, repugnant, obscene word in existence... Thus the power of this word.



Someone hasn't heard of the c-word.


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## MzSnowleopard (Sep 18, 2014)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> Someone hasn't heard of the c-word.




Oh I've heard of it- it's just not used as widely because - IMO - it's not as versatile. 

Now FRAK is just as usable as F-bombs and serves as an entertaining replacement. They used it in Eureka - and there's even an episode of Criminal Minds where Garcia drops a Frak bomb.  Is it a copyright protected word? Can anyone use it?

Why is it so entertaining? For me- it's the looks people get when they hear the word. You know they're thinking "what did you just say?" IMO- the reactions are just plain funny.

Just to note- on my forum, I used the word sensory to replace the f-bombs with Frak- just to throw people off.


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## ziodice (Sep 19, 2014)

I've got a thing for saying the c-word, I'm not going to say it now because unlike fuck, with which people may simply wince, if I say the c-word in public people will send hitmen to kill me in my sleep. But the c-word is just so _satisfying to say_.


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## shadowwalker (Sep 19, 2014)

The c-word to me is just low-class smut. JMO, of course, but I start reading a story and see that word and I feel like my mouth is full of dirt. Yech. Haven't found too many stories with that in it that I felt like continuing, and frankly, I find it totally unrealistic in romances. But that's personal preference, and yeah, some people it doesn't bother. I wouldn't tell a writer not to use it because I don't like it - I'd tell them to use it if the character would.


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## Jeko (Sep 19, 2014)

> The c-word to me is just low-class smut. JMO, of course, but I start reading a story and see that word and I feel like my mouth is full of dirt. Yech. Haven't found too many stories with that in it that I felt like continuing, and frankly, I find it totally unrealistic in romances



The only 'good' use of it I've found is in The Bloody Chamber, when the narrator is describing something pornographic and trying (IMO) to make us disgusted at it. But that's 'good' in a Dorian Gray, morality-goes-out-the-window sense.


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## MzSnowleopard (Sep 19, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> The c-word to me is just low-class smut. JMO, of course, but I start reading a story and see that word and I feel like my mouth is full of dirt. Yech. Haven't found too many stories with that in it that I felt like continuing, and frankly, I find it totally unrealistic in romances. But that's personal preference, and yeah, some people it doesn't bother. I wouldn't tell a writer not to use it because I don't like it - I'd tell them to use it if the character would.




That's a better way to explain my sense of F-bombs.


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## InstituteMan (Sep 19, 2014)

shadowwalker said:


> The c-word to me is just low-class smut. JMO, of course, but I start reading a story and see that word and I feel like my mouth is full of dirt. Yech. Haven't found too many stories with that in it that I felt like continuing, and frankly, I find it totally unrealistic in romances. But that's personal preference, and yeah, some people it doesn't bother. I wouldn't tell a writer not to use it because I don't like it - I'd tell them to use it if the character would.



The very low-class smuttiness makes it a very powerful ingredient. A powerful ingredient I have never used and likely never will. I am not opposed to using it on principle or anything, and I can imagine it to be useful to forcefully convey just how low-class and smutty something or someone is. I wouldn't deploy it often, though, and when in doubt I wouldn't deploy it at all.



Cadence said:


> The only 'good' use of it I've found is in The Bloody Chamber, when the narrator is describing something pornographic and trying (IMO) to make us disgusted at it. But that's 'good' in a Dorian Gray, morality-goes-out-the-window sense.



I haven't read The Bloody Chamber, but Dorian Gray is a great morality-goes-out-the-window tale, precisely the type of story that could make use of such language effectively, and had a writer with the skills to execute it.


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## Sam (Sep 19, 2014)

MzSnowleopard said:


> Is it a copyright protected word? Can anyone use it?



You can't copyright a word.


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## PiP (Sep 19, 2014)

> You can't copyright a word.


'Hello' magazine stopped a friend of mine using the name '_Hello_ Portugal' for her magazine. I thought it was strange...


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## shadowwalker (Sep 19, 2014)

PiP said:


> 'Hello' magazine stopped a friend of mine using the name '_Hello_ Portugal' for her magazine. I thought it was strange...



That might have been a matter of trademark for a magazine name, and since your friend was also going to put out a magazine, it could be seen as trademark infringement. I believe (and sorry no time to verify this) that if the use causes confusion in the market, then it's likely an infringement.


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