# her satin lips on which I rest



## jpatricklemarr (Jan 11, 2011)

her satin lips on which I rest
my gentle sigh at her behest
betray the pounding in her chest
and bring to mind this one request

that if I should not know her flesh
the lingered joy of her caress
perhaps it would be for the best
for God not to have carved the breast

for every slope and curve is still
the rise and fall of every thrill
and though my lust true faith should kill
I cannot bear that bitter pill

for loathe am I to scorn the skin
her every glance that does me in
and if desire be truly sin
it is the pot I'm stewing in


(Note: I dug this out of my personal archives. It's from 2004. It was all one stanza, but I broke it up to share it here. Would punctuation help it or should it stay as is? I'm open to any and all suggestions.)


----------



## Gumby (Jan 11, 2011)

Don't change a thing Jeff, I think it works wonderfully just as it is.


----------



## SilverMoon (Jan 11, 2011)

J - This is "wonderfulness" As I'm reading I was reminded of "The Passionate Shepard to his Love" by Christopher Marlowe.

It's about the pacing and sentiment. This is one of my favorite poems which means yours ranks very high with me. Stand back and see if you can see what I'm talking about.

http://www.types-of-poetry.org.uk/the-passionate-shepherd-to-his-love.htm


As you know, the first and last line or stanza are the ones which anchor a poem.

Splended:

her satin lips on which I rest

I was recently told that the first line should not be that of the title. I felt it would have worked for the poem, making a strong impact. I wish I had not taken their advice seeing that you have done excactly what I was told not to do, so successfully. 

and if desire be truly sin
it is the pot I'm stewing in

Brilliant wrap up!


I'm anxious to read more...


----------



## darkonone (Jan 11, 2011)

another good one; here are my suggestions:

I'd assume the 'behest' is 'Stop it!' do you think the sigh should be 'weary' or something?
-- I don't see how your sigh betrays the pounding of her heart

the second stanza doesn't seem much like a request
I don't much like the third and fourth lines, anyway. 'carved the breast' kind of sounds like something from Thanksgiving..

third and fourth lines from the third stanza are the best

I don't like 'for loathe am I to scorn the skin'--> was still thinking of Thanksgiving, I guess. 
'her every glance that does me in' seems kind of just shoved in there
third and fourth line of the fourth stanza are pretty good (despite more Thanksgiving feeling...), I might say 'and if such desire be truly sin, it is the pot that I'll stew in'. Unimportant, though.


----------



## Gumby (Jan 11, 2011)

I didn't have a problem with carve, as it brought to mind a sculptor. I guess maybe _formed _would work too though.


----------



## darkonone (Jan 11, 2011)

Probably 'shaped' would be best, but I think those two lines need to be changed more significantly anyway.-- One problem was 'the' instead of 'her/that' for starters, but even more significant changes I say! 

Also, someone should write a love poem to a turkey, it could be good.


----------



## terrib (Jan 11, 2011)

If you could have worked an earring in there somewhere it would have been prefect... lol


----------



## jpatricklemarr (Jan 11, 2011)

terrib said:


> If you could have worked an earring in there somewhere it would have been prefect... lol


 
You're a dufus.


----------



## jpatricklemarr (Jan 11, 2011)

darkonone said:


> another good one; here are my suggestions:
> 
> I'd assume the 'behest' is 'Stop it!' do you think the sigh should be 'weary' or something?
> -- I don't see how your sigh betrays the pounding of her heart
> ...


 
*Except that the rest of the piece is written in the present, other than my referring back to Creation, so switching to a future tense wouldn't fit. I get your points, I do, but I think some punctuation might clear up some of your misunderstanding in that first stanza. It's why I had asked about punctuation in the first place. I typically punctuate my pieces, but this one was from 2004 and I must have not felt the need at the time.*

*Thanks for taking the time to read it.*


----------



## jpatricklemarr (Jan 11, 2011)

darkonone said:


> Probably 'shaped' would be best, but I think those two lines need to be changed more significantly anyway.-- One problem was 'the' instead of 'her/that' for starters, but even more significant changes I say!
> 
> Also, someone should write a love poem to a turkey, it could be good.



*But I am not speaking only of her breast, but of every breast. The beauty of the female form in general, because I am referencing Creation. I see your confusion, but I don't see *_why_* you're confused.*

*And I agree about a love poem to a turkey. Sounds like it's on your mind. Get to it.*


----------



## jpatricklemarr (Jan 11, 2011)

SilverMoon said:


> J - This is "wonderfulness" As I'm reading I was reminded of "The Passionate Shepard to his Love" by Christopher Marlowe.
> 
> It's about the pacing and sentiment. This is one of my favorite poems which means yours ranks very high with me. Stand back and see if you can see what I'm talking about.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the link. I read it. Wonderful piece. You flatter me to say mine even brought it to mind.

As for the first line thing. I used to be awful about not naming my pieces. Baron would often tell me it was like not naming your babies. As I read more and more published poetry I noticed that many untitled pieces are listed by their first line. So, if it's good enough for the goose, why not? I often give my pieces names, but if one eludes me, I see nothing wrong with using the first line.


----------



## darkonone (Jan 11, 2011)

I've got to say I like your poems more before I hear your justifications for them. If she has requested you to gently sigh on her lips, then you feeling, through her lips, that she wants you, isn't exactly a betrayal on the lips part; they're confirming what she has apparently asked you to do. 

So far as the great sculptor: alright, god is a great sculptor, i suppose that could be an image, but it isn't a common one (I've never heard The Great Sculptor before) and there is no other hint of it, or 'Creation' in the poem. 'carving breast'_ is_, however, a pretty common phrase for cutting up turkey; you certainly can help how people perceive poems that you write, mostly by writing them differently. 

It seems difficult to request even God not to have made breasts. I want to say something about faith that moves mountains here. 

'the' vs 'her'--> again, CREATION, I just don't buy it. I suppose you could go from having one person (her lips, her flesh, her caress) reject you to asking God not to have made any people, sure, but you make nothing of that in the poem. 

I thought I'll would be better, it isn't 'the future' necessarily (but if you're going with referencing *CREATION*, I suppose I should just explain it, I was referencing *DAMNATION*)-- it implies volition, estimation, etc.  so you're choosing to be stewed in the pot, rather than just stating a fact, 'even if this what i'm doing is a sin, i'm doing it' vs 'even if what i'm doing is a sin, i'll do it' 

It all falls in on itself.


----------



## jpatricklemarr (Jan 11, 2011)

darkonone said:


> I've got to say I like your poems more before I hear your justifications for them. If she has requested you to gently sigh on her lips, then you feeling, through her lips, that she wants you, isn't exactly a betrayal on the lips part; they're confirming what she has apparently asked you to do.
> 
> So far as the great sculptor: alright, god is a great sculptor, i suppose that could be an image, but it isn't a common one (I've never heard The Great Sculptor before) and there is no other hint of it, or 'Creation' in the poem. 'carving breast'_ is_, however, a pretty common phrase for cutting up turkey; you certainly can help how people perceive poems that you write, mostly by writing them differently.
> 
> ...


 
For fear of having you accuse me of trying to justify my work again, I will keep this short. I don't feel the_ need_ to justify myself to you since _I don't know you_. I was only trying to explain what other readers seem to get at first read. I was addressing your lack of understanding, not a lack of clarity on my part.

And, as you're new to the community, perhaps we're miscommunicating because we simply don't know one another. But, when I receive critiques on my work, I am happy to consider all suggestions given. However, I certainly weigh more heavily the opinions coming from those whose work I admire and who, over time, have earned my respect. I do not recall having read any of your work, so when you make suggestions and suppositions, it is coming from a stranger. A kind stranger, for having read the piece, of course, but a stranger nonetheless. For all I know your poetry is to the craft what Milli Vanilli was to music. Or you could be the next Milosz and I would have to eat my pride. Now, I can certainly correct the "not knowing" by looking up some of your work, and I will try to do that. But trust and respect take time. Forgive me for taking the advice of others more readily. It is, in no way, a slant against you. I just think it may be part and parcel of why we seem at a disconnect here.

It's enough for me that Gumby, SilverMoon and a few others (via PM) seem to have readily understood it. If they were having the same difficulties you were having with the piece, I would certainly weigh that differently as I have known them a while now.

At any rate, please take all this in the spirit in which it's intended. I have no problem with you or your critique. I just don't know you well enough for it to count too heavily against those that seemed to understand it just fine.

J


----------



## Lamperoux (Jan 11, 2011)

darkonone said:


> I've got to say I like your poems more before I hear your justifications for them. If she has requested you to gently sigh on her lips, then you feeling, through her lips, that she wants you, isn't exactly a betrayal on the lips part; they're confirming what she has apparently asked you to do.
> 
> So far as the great sculptor: alright, god is a great sculptor, i suppose that could be an image, but it isn't a common one (I've never heard The Great Sculptor before) and there is no other hint of it, or 'Creation' in the poem. 'carving breast'_ is_, however, a pretty common phrase for cutting up turkey; you certainly can help how people perceive poems that you write, mostly by writing them differently.
> 
> ...


 

i'm no expert, but can i tell you something. you're irking me with your critiques. not everything has to be common, or make sense right away. a poem is usually short (save for epics and narrative poems). They have these layers of imagery and wording-- they let the reader enjoy going through, fully understanding the great meaning within just a few words. i'm not trying to be mean, but please don't act like you know what you're doing, because you know just about as much as me, and i don't know that much. if you can't delve into the beauty of the poem, then too bad. notice that people who are much your senior on this forum are offering a great deal less critiquing on this poem. Once again, if you don't understand the imagery of the poem, it can't be helped, just don't critique without fully understanding the poem .


@j, nice job keeping that last post short . and nice job with the poem. i must say that i gain at least some vocabulary or see a completely new sort of imagery or SOMETHING when i read one of your poems.


----------



## christianncg (Jan 11, 2011)

Although I usually hang around the fiction part of this site, I decided to wander around to the poetry section, and upon doing so have landed on your poem. This is absolutely amazing writing, by any and all means defined. I was moved emotionally, which is something that hasn't happened to me in a long time. Change nothing on this poem, as it is as closest to perfection that I've heard so far :')


----------



## JBlanton (Jan 11, 2011)

Thanks for the post, Patrick. This is a topic that I can strongly relate to, though rarely have I seen it expressed. Such a dichotomy of desires is, it seems clear, an inherent part of our time here. Sometimes a simple acknowledgement of the struggle grants some encouragement to those who assume the rest of humanity has less problems with such issues.


----------



## shadows (Jan 12, 2011)

another good one Jeff though I did stumble on this line - not sure what the problem is with it



> for God not to have carved the breast



I think with the words "for God not to have"


----------



## Firebird (Jan 12, 2011)

Jpatricklemarr, I really like this poem. My only two nits are - 'for God not to have carved the breast, does not quite scan as well as the rest of the piece, in my opinion; and in the forth stanza you write 'that does me in' which I feel jars with diction of the rest of the piece, and therefore detracts from its integrity. Only my opinion.

Besides these tiny points I loved it. 

Many thanks for an excellent read.

Love,

Firebird


----------



## apple (Jan 12, 2011)

This is quite regally written with subtle humor and of course the dilemma is clearly shown.  i enjoyed your poem very much.  It reads easily. You rhymed every line perfectly.  Nothing seemed forced.  Love it, you are quite an amazing writer.

my best,  Sondra


----------



## terrib (Jan 12, 2011)

Well, I thought your critique was good, Dark...I too, like J's poems better before he explains them...(just ask him what I thought his first poem was about..lol).


----------



## jpatricklemarr (Jan 12, 2011)

Lamperoux said:


> @j, nice job keeping that last post short . and nice job with the poem. i must say that i gain at least some vocabulary or see a completely new sort of imagery or SOMETHING when i read one of your poems.


 
Thanks, Lamperoux. One of my favorite things is when a song, poem... even a novel... sends me running for the dictionary. I don't strive to do that in my pieces, but I love reading the work here and having my mind opened to the imagination and creativity of others.


----------



## jpatricklemarr (Jan 12, 2011)

christianncg said:


> Although I usually hang around the fiction part of this site, I decided to wander around to the poetry section, and upon doing so have landed on your poem. This is absolutely amazing writing, by any and all means defined. I was moved emotionally, which is something that hasn't happened to me in a long time. Change nothing on this poem, as it is as closest to perfection that I've heard so far :')



If she wasn't deceased, I would suspect you of being my mother.  I'm kidding. (Your check is in the mail.) Glad you enjoyed the piece and braved the crazy streets of Poetville. I write a bit of fiction myself. What sorts of things do you write?


----------



## jpatricklemarr (Jan 12, 2011)

JBlanton said:


> Thanks for the post, Patrick. This is a topic that I can strongly relate to, though rarely have I seen it expressed. Such a dichotomy of desires is, it seems clear, an inherent part of our time here. Sometimes a simple acknowledgement of the struggle grants some encouragement to those who assume the rest of humanity has less problems with such issues.



Ah, a fellow Texan!  To tell you the truth, JB, I think that what you said is one of the truths that makes what we do (whether we write poetry, fiction, whatever) such a responsibility. Our honesty about our own failures and shortcomings provides a unique sense of brotherhood for those who feel alone in their troubles. Sometimes it's enough to know someone has walked the same road before us. If we could just incorporate such honesty in our daily lives, the world might feel less lonely.


----------



## jpatricklemarr (Jan 12, 2011)

shadows said:


> another good one Jeff though I did stumble on this line - not sure what the problem is with it
> 
> 
> 
> I think with the words "for God not to have"


 
shadows, perhaps "for God to not have" would help? It doesn't flow as readily off my tongue, but is a more proper word order. What do you think?


----------



## jpatricklemarr (Jan 12, 2011)

Firebird, thanks for reading it and for the comments. I'll give that some thought.


----------



## jpatricklemarr (Jan 12, 2011)

apple said:


> This is quite regally written with subtle humor and of course the dilemma is clearly shown. i enjoyed your poem very much. It reads easily. You rhymed every line perfectly. Nothing seemed forced. Love it, you are quite an amazing writer.
> 
> my best, Sondra



Thanks, Sondra. I always enjoy your work, so that is a compliment I will cherish.


----------



## orther (Jan 13, 2011)

Hey,
  I can suggest a very good place for ghost writing services, if you need a help related to ghost writing services so I can suggest a good place for ghost writing services.
----------------
 Boo Ink Ghostwriters


----------



## rainhands (Jan 13, 2011)

I was going to offer an in-depth look at this poem. But looking at your reaction to others, I’m not so sure. “I was addressing your lack of understanding, not a clarity on my part,” is pretty rude, when someone has taken their time out to read your poem and try to highlight problem areas. You can defend your poem til you’re blue in the face, but to be honest, if it’s not communicating to your reader, then your poem is really speaking only to yourself. Okay, so your problem was more that only *one* reader, who you don't really know, had a problem with it, therefore they *must* be wrong. Seeing as I don’t know you as well as other people on this forum, perhaps you won’t take my advice as seriously either? Am I supposed to give you a list of my accolades? You know, just to prove myself. Because I thought that one of the main positive points of a public forum was that you didn’t really know people so you could get more honest feedback. And for ‘those who seemed to understand it just fine’ – someone saying ‘I have no nits with this’ isn’t really someone saying they ‘got’ your poem, for all you know they could have a completely different understanding of it than the one you were aiming for. So for someone to actually have shown that they’ve really read and tried to engage with something you’ve written, found problems with how you’ve communicated in the piece, and to be told their opinion isn’t worth much, isn’t very gracious. Even if you don't agree with them.

Sorry, I just get really annoyed with this kind of attitude. And also ‘notice that people who are much your senior on this forum are offering a great deal less critiquing on this poem.’ Not critiquing a poem because no one else  has, whattt? Yes, poetry should be treated with sensitivity, but I hate this notion that poetry is somehow ‘above’ critique, somehow this transcendental thing that god forbid one touches. They’re words, words that we’ve put together to try and communicate something to the reader. Not everything we write is perfect, and just because loads of other people say they love something doesn’t mean you can’t have an opinion, that you can’t not like something. Poetry needs to get down off its pedestal.

Anyway, I must admit I’m not keen on the style. I don't really enjoy writing in the twenty-first century that sounds as if it was written centuries ago, it’s all a bit flowery and pseudo-poetic for my tastes. I, too, didn’t really get what the request was. The rhyming was heavy and some of the word order has been forced to fit the rhyme.

But it’s completely up to you what you do with it, and if you like it as it is, then keep it this way. I just hope that you listen to all your readers, because all opinions should be carefully considered in order to enhance the _poem_. I hope this hasn't come across as a horrible rant, but rather something to think about. I'm really quite a mild person usually. Good luck,

-R


----------



## jpatricklemarr (Jan 13, 2011)

rainhands,

Im sorry if I came across to you as rude. It certainly wasn't my intent. If you give me a list of accolades, you will win, for certain. I do not consider myself a poet, in any sense. I'm just a guy who writes fiction and poetry and occasionally it connects with people. Like most writers, I hide more things that I show. I know my limitations. My comments to darkonone (who I hope took no offense) had more to do with "community." When I came to WF, I was careful to keep my responses to the work of others brief. I had the humility to realize that, until people got to know my work, my words wouldn't carry much wait. That has nothing to do with talent. For all I know, darkonone is a brilliant poet. But he or she is new to the community and seems to respond as though they founded it. Darkonone is entitled to opinion and I am grateful to have it. I didn't mean to insinuate the opinion was worthless, only that, until I get to know the person and their work better, I cannot weigh it as heavily as the word of others who have invested themselves in me more fully.

I apologize if I seemed to have an attitude. If you ask around, you'll find I'm a decent guy with a good reputation. I don't think of my poetry as being above critique. In fact, I typically employ suggestions into my rewrites. Like I said, I don't think of myself as an artist or any such crap. That is for others to decide, not me. I know that not every piece will connect with every reader, and I am not interested in it connecting with every reader. Some people think of Thomas Kinkade as a great artist. Others say he's a hack. Maybe he just paints for those that enjoy his work and doesn't worry about the rest. You may find it hard to believe, but I really appreciate feedback... even the negative...ESPECIALLY the negative. It helps me grow. I only felt the need to address darkonone because I felt he was missing something others seemed to understand... and the way he presented himself was a bit offensive. I doubted that was his intention, but I wasn't the only one who saw it that way.

I'm sorry you didn't care for the piece. I don't typically write pieces with that sort of archaic style, but I let the piece direct me and there it is. It came from wanting a physical relationship yet struggling with the notion of sin. I'm sorry if I did not convey that to your liking. Nonetheless, I appreciate the time you took to read the piece and to address what you felt was rudeness on my part. I hope that time will grant you a better picture of me than that.

All my best,

J


----------



## rainhands (Jan 13, 2011)

Hey J,

It may just be the way I read those last few posts then. In any case, there's no need to apologise. I'm glad you appreciate all sorts of feedback - I'll know it's okay to return to more of your work that way. I do think, though, that we should all strive to have our work carry it's own weight, whether our reader knows us personally or not. I really do wish you all the best with your writing,

-R


----------



## jpatricklemarr (Jan 13, 2011)

rainhands said:


> Hey J,
> 
> It may just be the way I read those last few posts then. In any case, there's no need to apologise. I'm glad you appreciate all sorts of feedback - I'll know it's okay to return to more of your work that way. I do think, though, that we should all strive to have our work carry it's own weight, whether our reader knows us personally or not. I really do wish you all the best with your writing,
> 
> -R


 
I wish you the same. And, truly, I would rather you call me on it if you think I'm being rude that to risk something I've said offending anyone (even unintentionally.) I'm glad you shared your thoughts on that as well as the poem.


----------



## darkonone (Jan 13, 2011)

--rainhands: I didn't think his response was even as rude as my post, which was hardly rude itself. If anything, I think people are trying too hard to be polite/ self-deprecating (see post above) around here. Everything else I agree with. 

The 'people your senior are offering less critique' annoyed me a bit, but honestly it sums up the attitude on these forums pretty well. Just a bunch of people telling each other their poems 'feel' really good.


----------



## rainhands (Jan 13, 2011)

darkonone, I didn't mean rude in terms of how anything was said - it was really all rather civil - I simply meant in terms of what was actually being implied - that a critique is not valuable. And that it's a reviewer who is getting it wrong rather than the poem not communicating. As though it's somehow their fault for 'not getting it.'

I completely agree with you that a pat-on-the-back attitude doesn't really do anyone's writing any good.


----------



## JBlanton (Jan 13, 2011)

Interesting discussion here, and for some reason I'm compelled to briefly comment. 

For me, much of the joy and profit in a review is found not so much in the technical critique (though that's helpful as well), but in the explanation of how it came across to the various readers. As such, I don't necessarily look for skilled poetic capability behind those morsels of feedback, but an honest expression of how it affected them (if it even did), and how they felt or how they interpreted the piece. As mentioned, observations that indicate something didn't come across clearly points me to an opportunity for refining the piece in some way, unless a little uncertainty is desired. 

As to pats on the back, sometimes a little encouragement is nice. So far, in my brief experience here, there's a good variety of types of feedback, from pats on the back to technical, to philosophical, to bluntly challenging, to heartfelt, etc.... It seems to me that there's value to be found in them all.


----------



## Chesters Daughter (Jan 17, 2011)

Your meter, as always, is flawless. For what it's worth, I had no problem with carved, like Cindy, I envisioned a sculptor, or rather The Sculptor. My only nit would be the repetition of in as the end rhyme in the final stanza, otherwise, I enjoyed this very much, Jeff. Hope no one turns up the flame beneath that pot.


----------



## Jane Martin (Jan 19, 2011)

it reads like a Shakespearian sonnet, love it!


----------

