# Post-apocalyptic plausibility



## kristina (Aug 3, 2011)

Hi, new to the site.

For a story, my setting is a smaller "town" (for lack of a better word) a couple centuries after a TBD event that takes out most of the populations / global trading & social structure, etc.......

While that's not the main point, I don't want to things not to make sense so how detailed, as a reader, do you like the setting substantiated? Like tires, what to go with (airless?) or something for vehicles since rubber isn't grown in the States, but is that a worthwhile mention? (Just one example, I'm debating how to go on a few issues like electricity, fuel.....)


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## WolfieReveles (Aug 5, 2011)

Detail is a question of style. I'm the kind of guy who enjoys hearing how the pistons move on a steam engine, how withered a wooden application was, or what size wrench is being used. Others get bored with such detail. It's all about making it sound as interesting as you think it is. Transmit it.

Meanwhile, for realism:
For scenery, watch all episodes of the Discovery series Life after People. Many places would be in ruins so this should grant you the look for any surrounding areas(unless you want to go for the nuclear wasteland kind of post-apocalypse).
Modern rubber is mostly produced synthetically, derived from petroleum. If your town has the infrastructure it's possible. In any other case, use airless wheels.
Most survivors would be normal people. If you can google something and build it with your standard hardware supplies, chances are someone could have passed that knowledge down to their children.
If we're talking several centuries after worlds end, the town should have a blacksmith and the capabilities to smelt and recycle metals. No matter how romantic it feels, practically no tools or materials would have survived without being properly looked after. Scavenging won't provide nearly as many resources as Hollywood and digital entertainment would have you think. It could be done, but that much later they'd need to go on expeditions for days to find a few metal plates that weren't rusting apart.

Look into early industrial generators and technology. Often these can be fabricated with very basic resources. They could easily sustain a small settlement.

Scavenged gasoline would have run out by then. For fuel there are many options:
Bio-diesel can be derived from heated fat (needs livestock, like pigs)
Turpentine can be made from tree sap (Can't remember what tree)
The settlement could sit on a deposit of methane, perhaps the reason for the settlement surviving was this constant supply of natural gas.
Coal is easily mined and wood burns well too. It's enough to power a steam engine that could run a generator.
Solar panels would probably never survive that long, but if they received thew proper maintenance they could be the town's great achievement and salvation.
Wind turbines. Easy to build, require no fuel

This brings us to batteries:
If you can power a generator, or use the elements to power batteries, all your vehicles and tools can be electrical. Rescue or recycle enough copper for the wires and you're set!
You need a source of acids to build batteries, look into what acids can be obtained in post-apocalyptia. Even lemon juice can store a bit of energy but hardly enough. Google is your friend in this area!

Basically, that's it. From here you just decide how much tech you actually want.


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## Winston (Aug 5, 2011)

With "global trading and social structure" disrupted, your future people would make more sense as an agrarian, barter, subsistence society.

Can't add much to the above post, except that a mix of 'old and new' would be believable.  Windmills would be used for water pumps and grain processing more than electricity, I would think.  Trade with other towns or groups would be essential.  As far as weapons go, bows and arrows would be it (making ammo is difficult w/o a bunch of discreet, hard to find items).

The only new thing I could think to introduce would be something along the lines of biological / chemical catalysts or weapons.  The base items needed to synthesize bio-chem compounds can be found anywhere.  Good luck and welcome.


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## kristina (Aug 7, 2011)

Thanks for all the info!  (Yup, google has been my best friend as of late)

Timeframe would be way past scavangers, so thinking at least in the settlements, there's a decent rebuilding / restored quality of life versus right after.

On the weapons question, I know for making more modern ammo, that's a problem, but could you go with a black powder pistol or revolver?   - Wouldn't be great for a surprise attack, but if you were planning something, might be of use.   Everyday sort of weapon I'd stick with the bow/arrow, although I do like the idea of bio/chem now.


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## Winston (Aug 7, 2011)

kristina said:


> On the weapons question, I know for making more modern ammo, that's a problem, but could you go with a black powder pistol or revolver?   - Wouldn't be great for a surprise attack, but if you were planning something, might be of use.   Everyday sort of weapon I'd stick with the bow/arrow, although I do like the idea of bio/chem now.



You basically get one 'volley' of accurate fire with black powder (depending on conditions).  Good shooters can reload and fire three times per minute, but by that time you're shooting into a grey cloud, unable to see your target.  However, due to it's simplicity, it would make sense in the  society you envision.

A quick primer on bow & arrows:  During the American Revolution, Benjamin Franklin suggested that Colonial troops be armed with Bows. He saw how effectively the Navive Americans used them.  Plus, Frankilin knew that the colonialists couls easily be blockaded by the Royalists, and could not import the needed iron, lead and saltpeter (I won't say this too often, but Yay France!)
In China, the Chu-No-Ku crossbow was used until the start of the 20th century.  It could fire ten to twenty bolts per minute and used a reloadable magazine.
For employment (use) of bows, start with the 1415 Battle of Agincourt.  Archers make excellent force multipliers when used as 'stand-off' weapons.  The can be used as highly mobile, fast artillery, raining down death from outside the range of shock troops (those armed with spears and swords).  For that matter, if used properly, a small force of archers can harass and whittle down troops armed with early gunpowder  weapons.  (side note:  The French so hated the English Longbowman that, when caught, the French cut off their middle and index fingers, so they could never again draw a bow.  When the British hold up those two fingers, it does NOT mean 'peace'.)

Final note on modern weapons.  It would make sense for a future tribal chief to own a rifle and pistol.  Totally believable if he / they had a AK-47 and some kind of 9mm.  There are billions of these rounds stockpiled today.  From a social control POV, the elite would keep these weapons to intimidate their enemies, foreign and domestic.

Now, if you have any ideas on bio/chem use, I think someone else may need to help you.  I studied fermented alcohol last night, now it's time for caffeine.  Again, good luck.


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## WolfieReveles (Aug 8, 2011)

kristina said:


> Thanks for all the info!  (Yup, google has been my best friend as of late)
> 
> Timeframe would be way past scavangers, so thinking at least in the settlements, there's a decent rebuilding / restored quality of life versus right after.
> 
> On the weapons question, I know for making more modern ammo, that's a problem, but could you go with a black powder pistol or revolver?   - Wouldn't be great for a surprise attack, but if you were planning something, might be of use.   Everyday sort of weapon I'd stick with the bow/arrow, although I do like the idea of bio/chem now.



I'd say go for crossbows. If a friend of mine built one in wood shop in 8th grade, these guys shouldn't have any problem with it. Same goes for city defenses. Molotov-tossing trebuchets are an easy build. I made one in 9th grade. (Our wood shop teacher was way cool) It was actually only a bit over 2 meters tall, light and mobile, and tossed blocks of ice up to 100 meters. A larger build could provide for good artillery.


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## C.M. Aaron (Aug 8, 2011)

Bows and arrows could work in a post-apocalyptic setting, but history suggests that people do not use bows and arrows if a simpler weapon is available. It takes years of practice to become proficient with a bow and arrow. You can learn a gun in a few minutes. As soon as firearms became available, right after the 100 Years' War, the English dropped their vaunted longbows. The Native Americans did the same thing - as soon as they got access to guns, they forgot all about the bow and arrow. In many ways the bow and arrow are superior to the muzzle-loading smooth-bore: The bow has a higher rate of fire, similar if not superior range and accuracy, and the bow does not reveal the shooter's location (it's quieter, and has no tell-tale puff of smoke). The bow also does not blind the shooter with that puff of smoke. But people are lazy and will choose an easier weapon every time. You can still use a bow and arrow in your story. Just don't have a character pick up one for the very first time and immediately start hitting targets with it.


 I like that you are considering the post-apocalyptic economy. The knowledge survives but the political instability and the economics prevent many technologies from continuing. Look to the fall of the Roman Empire and the beginning of the Dark Ages for examples or inspiration. Good luck with your story. C.M.


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## WolfieReveles (Aug 8, 2011)

C.M. Aaron said:


> Just don't have a character pick up one for the very first time and immediately start hitting targets with it.



Well, at relatively short range even a bow is quite simple. I remember the first time I tried one, my arm was still in its cast after breaking it a few weeks earlier(but it had healed by then) and I could still hit a moving target at a short distance(but far enough to gain a significant advantage over melee) with 70% success rate. Obviously I wouldn't know if I was aiming at an artery or an eye, but hey, bows really aren't that complicated. At long range, sure, calculating the arch becomes harder and harder, and it takes more strength and accuracy, but it's way easier to pick up a bow than, say, a flail.


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## Winston (Aug 8, 2011)

We're really off on a tangent here, but just one more thing re Bows:

Big difference between a hunting 'compound bow' and a crossbow.  It takes strength and skill to operate a longbow.  It takes hardly any training to wield a crossbow.
During the Middle Ages, crossbowmen were some of the most feared (and hated) of fighting men.  Masses of semi-skilled serfs rained down death that highly trained swordsmen had no defense against.  It just wasn't chivalrous.
This is why I mentioned the Chu-No-Ku specifically.  It was the high water mark of simplicity (any Chinese farmer could use one) and effectiveness.  Employed en-masse, accuracy is a moot point.
Remember what Joseph Stallin said:  "Quantity has a quality of it's own."


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## Raging_Hopeful (Aug 8, 2011)

Interesting question as I am working on a post-apocolyptic novel that focuses on the "supervirus" phenomeon. However, my personal thoughts are to stick to what I know or can reason and develop strong characters. While the backdrop is an apocolyptic setting, the real story is how the characters interact and survive within it. Fortunately I haven't run into too many "detail" bits that have truly stalled me. My suggestion would be to finish the work first and then revise with those details in mind. If your characters and plot are weak, it's not going to matter whether they used cross bows or guns. The story will fall flat. Good luck! 

Cheers,
Lindsay


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## WolfieReveles (Aug 9, 2011)

While what Lindsay says is probably true for most, I myself have found that research motivates me to write. In my case it isn't post-apocalypse but alternate timeline, but since I found out that the Empire State building was originally designed with a Zeppelin terminal it boosted me to write because I know my story reaches New York at one point and I want to get there so I may write about it. Perhaps if you find some incredible or ingenious device that your characters can build or some fascinating effect of post-apocalyptic deterioration that you can explore it will drive you forward.


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## Winston (Aug 9, 2011)

BTW:  If you want to SELL your work, include some "steampunk" elements.  Agents are going nuts looking for that stuff.


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## kristina (Aug 10, 2011)

Sadly, had to google steampunk - reminds me of the Wild, Wild West movie redo.....

Simpler to go with someone finds a stockpile of well preserved ammo, but then again, could come up with something crafty to re-instate the making of it instead.   Definitely needs to be a hierarchy of weapons within the settlements.  

And yes, the writing / characters are more important but it just drives me crazy if a. things aren't explained to a certain degree esp. not in a modern setting, and b. if not a fantasy world, it shouldn't be there.  Also, a few major plot decisions rest on whether I go with a certain scenario or not.  But again, good point.   While I prefer to write linear, I may just have to go back and fill in any gaps for accuracy / plausibility.  

(Thanks for all the replies, this is helping out a lot and opening up some new trains of thought)


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## Monkey Doctor (Aug 11, 2011)

I think the best post apocalyptic book I have read is Riddley Walker by Russell Hoban. It's set a bit further ahead than yours, around 1000 years after the event. It's very hard reading as the language used is not English as we know it. It is worth getting through though.
http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riddley_Walker


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## theorphan (Oct 8, 2011)

So I checked this out just to see what you were asking since my current novel that I am working on is post-apocalyptic too (I prefer to call if post-virus) but have decided to give a few ideas to you.  I would first suggest that you think about who your audience is to be.  One comment I have gotten on my Scribophile account is that I have not explained my virus enough in the first chapter; however, last time I wrote a similar short story I was told I had too much description in their.  So it really depends on who you are writing for.  You also might want to consider how much the cause effects the later on of the story.  Mine does effect it a lot because the virus turns out to be man made.

Fuel runs out, gets stolen.  Electricity goes out as soon as the things that run electricity are not kept up.  Poof there goes electricity.  It all depends on what kind of power source your community has, hydro, nuclear, fossil fuel.


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