# Odd question about word counts...



## Gamer_2k4 (Jul 21, 2012)

So, I'm pretty sure that no editor has ever received a manuscript and decided, "You know, this is actually the perfect length and will require no cuts at all!" (unless you're famous).  Or, to put it another way, every accepted manuscript will be returned with "cut off X,000 words and we'll talk."

Here's my question.  I'm currently revising my sci-fi novel, which I hear is supposed to clock in at 120,000 words.  It's at 195,000 right now.  Should I submit it at, say, 150,000 words so that the inevitable cut will be easier? Or should I eviscerate it until it's at 120,000 words (as "required"), only to hear, "It's good, but it would be better with 20,000 fewer words"?

Or am I completely off base here?


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## Potty (Jul 21, 2012)

Have you submitted it and been told they will look at it if it's 120k words? If so, do as you're told.

If however you've just read on the internet somewhere that it should be 120k words then ignore it and make the story perfect regardless of the word count. A story could be 300k words so long as those words are needed and physically cannot be removed from the story. If you think your story is good as it is, send it off and let the agent tell you what to do about it. 

If they like it but think it needs work, they will say so... don't assume to know what they want.


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## Nicky (Jul 21, 2012)

if a publisher told me "it's good but X" i'd probably stop them right there and hire a free lance editor and self publish it. They are people like you and me - not gods of literature. Hell, i'd probably quote parts of their complements on the back cover.


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## Potty (Jul 21, 2012)

Nicky said:


> if a publisher told me "it's good but X" i'd probably stop them right there and hire a free lance editor and self publish it. They are people like you and me - not gods of literature. Hell, i'd probably quote parts of their complements on the back cover.



disagree, an Im sorry if what I'm about to say seems a bit harsh:

But this sounds like throwing your toys out of the pram a little bit. Agents and publishers know what they are doing, yes they occasionally make mistakes (Take J.K Rowling) but on the whole, if a number of agents reject your story there is a reason. If they give you that reason then you should probably take it on board as they are in the business of making money out of good writers.


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## Nicky (Jul 21, 2012)

Potty said:


> disagree, an Im sorry if what I'm about to say seems a bit harsh:
> 
> But this sounds like throwing your toys out of the pram a little bit. Agents and publishers know what they are doing, yes they occasionally make mistakes (Take J.K Rowling) but on the whole, if a number of agents reject your story there is a reason. If they give you that reason then you should probably take it on board as they are in the business of making money out of good writers.



okay...but where's the part where you were being harsh?


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## Potty (Jul 21, 2012)

That _was_ me being harsh... I could poke fun out of your hair style if that helps?


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## Sam (Jul 21, 2012)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> So, I'm pretty sure that no editor has ever received a manuscript and decided, "You know, this is actually the perfect length and will require no cuts at all!" (unless you're famous).  Or, to put it another way, every accepted manuscript will be returned with "cut off X,000 words and we'll talk."
> 
> Here's my question.  I'm currently revising my sci-fi novel, which I hear is supposed to clock in at 120,000 words.  It's at 195,000 right now.  Should I submit it at, say, 150,000 words so that the inevitable cut will be easier? Or should I eviscerate it until it's at 120,000 words (as "required"), only to hear, "It's good, but it would be better with 20,000 fewer words"?
> 
> Or am I completely off base here?



If a publishing house says 120,000 words maximum, there's always some wiggle room. They aren't going to reject a brilliant story because it's 130K. It's when you start going 20 and 30K over that some have a problem with. My publishing house said 110K maximum. I sent them the first three chapters of my novel and told them it clocked in at 140K. They accepted me for publication nonetheless, and pruned it down to 135K. 

The moral? If the story has potential, they'll amend their word counts. But not from 120K to 195K. Get it to 150K. Then lie. Seriously. _Lie. _Microsoft Word's counter is inaccurate. It's usually off by 1,000 to 1,500 words. Tell them it's 145K finished. You _might _(doubtable) get away with telling them it's 140K. If it ever comes up, feign surprise and say, "It said 141, 554 on my computer. I was rounding down."


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## Potty (Jul 21, 2012)

I bow to a higher power when it comes to publishing! Listen to Sam.


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## Bloggsworth (Jul 21, 2012)

Most bits of writing can be improved by sharpening up. If you think your novel is already perfect and no-one knows any better you are probably like the lawyer who represents himself; you have a fool for a client. Editors attached to publishers probably know more about selling a novel then you ever will, it's their job so accept their advice, and isn't that rather the point, selling it? Why would you think that A) you know better than them, and B) why would you think that you can do a better job of selling your novel by self-publishing it? Have you a sales and marketing department? Do you have salespersons going round independent bookshops selling your novel? People will only buy your book if they know that it exists to buy - A statement of the bleedin' obvious that misses a lot of people who believe that they have something to sell but who have no means of marketing it...


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## Kyle R (Jul 21, 2012)

Gamer_2k4 said:


> So, I'm pretty sure that no editor has ever received a manuscript and decided, "You know, this is actually the perfect length and will require no cuts at all!" (unless you're famous). Or, to put it another way, every accepted manuscript will be returned with "cut off X,000 words and we'll talk."
> 
> Here's my question. I'm currently revising my sci-fi novel, which I hear is supposed to clock in at 120,000 words. It's at 195,000 right now. Should I submit it at, say, 150,000 words so that the inevitable cut will be easier? Or should I eviscerate it until it's at 120,000 words (as "required"), only to hear, "It's good, but it would be better with 20,000 fewer words"?
> 
> Or am I completely off base here?



Depends on the publisher, but if a certain word-count is requested, it's probably not arbitrary. It likely has to do with the cost of printing.

I would say focus mainly on getting the story to the point you're completely satisfied with it. Don't "undercut" to give yourself some wiggle-room for any future possible cuts. 

That's like going on a first date with slightly rumpled clothes hoping to make a better impression on the second date.

Get it to where you want it to be, then take it from there and see what happens.


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## movieman (Jul 23, 2012)

Potty said:


> Agents and publishers know what they are doing, yes they occasionally make mistakes (Take J.K Rowling) but on the whole, if a number of agents reject your story there is a reason. If they give you that reason then you should probably take it on board as they are in the business of making money out of good writers.



No, they routinely make mistakes. Most popular novels were rejected multiple times before a publisher decided to accept them, and we have no idea how many great novels are sitting unread in trunks because the author gave up instead of submitting it that one last time that would have been accepted.

The great novel accepted by the first publisher it's submitted to is the exception, not the norm.


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## Terry D (Jul 23, 2012)

Word count is an entirely economic question for publishers.  Each page costs 'X' amount and publishers have budgets they need to meet each year.  An inflated word count means the cost of publishing that book will cut further into that budget.  They also have targets to meet for the number of titles they wish to release.  Authors with a track record are going to get the first chance at those open slots -- they've earned that right.  First time writers have to fight for the budgetary left-overs.  Sure, you can send them a book that's 20% or more over their suggested word count, and if it is head and shoulders above the competition, it might get picked up.  But, you are starting at a disadvantage.


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## Gamer_2k4 (Jul 23, 2012)

Thanks, everyone.  I have no intention of submitting the manuscript anytime soon (I've only edited the first chapter so far, and already 2,000 words are gone...MAN but that was some lousy writing), but it's good to know that good novels are more important than short novels.  I have no delusions that my novel is good in its current state; it has a good plot and characters, but what manuscript doesn't?

My current plan is to just tear into it until all the easy cuts are made, then I'll see where I stand.  Once that's done, I'll attack the more supposedly crucial parts as needed until the word count is reasonable.  I'll make it the best it can be, and not submit before then.  Kyle's date analogy is a good one.


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