# Need to talk vs. knowing not to



## Dluuni (Apr 9, 2019)

Minor issue with a chapter that I am trying to sort out.
Small town setting in America, summer 2017.
In the previous chapter, the MC was chased by multiple attackers with weapons (club and possible gun/knife) and ran to a certain parking lot, because in an earlier scene the sidekick told him about the security camera out front. He loudly tried to talk them down. There were witnesses. They attacked and he proceeded to break both of them, since that's a 'pull out all the stops' situation, then sit down at the scene to wait to straighten things out.
Next chapter is the same day, he has to walk into a bar and verbally confront the villain before leaving town, leaving the sidekick to housesit.

This chapter, I need him to have a dialogue with the police about what is going on.

He has reason to mistrust police at a healthy level, and to be very aware of things like 'Don't talk to the police, lawyer up immediately'. What I'm not sure about is the exact sequence of things that might happen when the police arrive on scene that would end with them letting him go after him feeling free to talk to them for a scene. Anybody more conversant in police that might have any ideas how to connect the dots there? I don't want to handwave this because my audience may have dealt with the police.


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## ironpony (Apr 11, 2019)

Hey there.  I'm a bit confused by this situation.  What do you mean, when you say it's a 'pull out of all stops' situation?


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## moderan (Apr 11, 2019)

Very confusing -- also, plotting help, not research.


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## Dluuni (Apr 11, 2019)

The hero is a martial artist, but unarmed. 5'6", 150 pounds. He is attacked by two people of unknown capabilities, over 200 pounds each, both of whom have weapons, and there is a third coming up behind them.
By research, under a condition like that, the person defending is strongly advised even by police and lawyers to go directly to potentially lethal levels of force. Throat punches, stomping on ribcages, things like that. Because the odds are extremely skewed.

There is a security camera and witnesses and he spends several lines trying to talk them down first.

I need the local police to quickly let him go talk to the villain, who they also want to catch but don't know the identity of, then leave town. (They know how to contact him later if needed.)

I'm just trying to work out the procedures that would get to that best.. knowing that a good number of my readers have probably had multiple run ins with the police.


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## luckyscars (Apr 11, 2019)

Dluuni said:


> The hero is a martial artist, but unarmed. 5'6", 150 pounds. He is attacked by two people of unknown capabilities, over 200 pounds each, both of whom have weapons, and there is a third coming up behind them.
> By research, under a condition like that, the person defending is strongly advised even by police and lawyers to go directly to potentially lethal levels of force. Throat punches, stomping on ribcages, things like that. Because the odds are extremely skewed.
> 
> There is a security camera and witnesses and he spends several lines trying to talk them down first.
> ...



What do you mean by "I need the local police to quickly let him go talk to the villain, who they also want to catch but don't know the identity of, then leave town." ? Why would the police want the hero to go talk to the villain? Some sort of bait thing?

Very confusing. Not sure I buy that anybody in law would ever 'strongly advise' somebody else to go directly to potentially lethal levels of force in any situation unless it was a situation they absolutely could not run away from. If your MC is a martial artist I'm sure they are more than capable of running quite fast. Still, maybe that's a local thing.


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## epimetheus (Apr 12, 2019)

I agree, a martial artist would have been taught to run in that situation. Also can't imagine the cops letting him talk the assailants - unless he's owed a favour by one of them or something.


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## moderan (Apr 12, 2019)

Even so, that's potentially career-ending. There's no rationale you're gonna tell the Captain (or situation commander) that's gonna get that done. Police work is handled by the police. That doesn't stop people in movies from doing it but ...


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## ironpony (Apr 12, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> What do you mean by "I need the local police to quickly let him go talk to the villain, who they also want to catch but don't know the identity of, then leave town." ? Why would the police want the hero to go talk to the villain? Some sort of bait thing?
> 
> Very confusing. Not sure I buy that anybody in law would ever 'strongly advise' somebody else to go directly to potentially lethal levels of force in any situation unless it was a situation they absolutely could not run away from. If your MC is a martial artist I'm sure they are more than capable of running quite fast. Still, maybe that's a local thing.



I also did not understand this part either.  Why does he need permission from the police to do this?


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## Dluuni (Apr 12, 2019)

Storyline form:
In acts 1-2, the character has been defined as a fighter. His fighting skills keep getting set up. One of the comments from the earlier acts that keeps getting repeated is "Before this finishes, he needs to use the fighting, or it runs the danger of making a bad moral statement." (He commented on not wanting to fight, villain claims he's covering for being weak. It's a challenge to identity in more than one way.) 
Two, it's a small town on an island. There's nowhere to run to really. And there's not a big organization, just two peace officers. (The town I use as a model has two officers and a clerk.) 
Three, at this point it's act three. We had the Dark Moment and breakup, and he just learned who the puppet master villain is through means he can't take to the police, because someone else was doing hijinks and sneaking around trespassing to get the needed clue. He's running toward the final confrontation and Grand Gesture; that cannot be a physical confrontation because it morally doesn't accomplish anything to punch a frail blackmailer. It has to be a reputation fight, because that's what the blackmailer is good at. 
So for plot purposes, I need to 
Show a fight in the modern day to show how much he hates fighting now, unlike when he was younger
Confront the villain in a gossip/reputation fight 
Clean up, run to the ferry, grovel, get the girl 
Don't leave loose ends


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## luckyscars (Apr 12, 2019)

Dluuni said:


> Storyline form:
> In acts 1-2, the character has been defined as a fighter. His fighting skills keep getting set up. One of the comments from the earlier acts that keeps getting repeated is "Before this finishes, he needs to use the fighting, or it runs the danger of making a bad moral statement." (He commented on not wanting to fight, villain claims he's covering for being weak. It's a challenge to identity in more than one way.)



Nope. Maybe I'm just stupid, but I don't know what it means to say 'his fighting skills keep getting set up' (like what does that even mean, set up?) and the idea of having the ability to fight but not actually having to use it is pretty central, as far as I know, to most martial art philosophies, so the notion that his reluctance to fight despite the villains taunts and this somehow makes him weak or 'a bad moral statement' seems misguided.



> Two, it's a small town on an island. There's nowhere to run to really. And there's not a big organization, just two peace officers. (The town I use as a model has two officers and a clerk.)



So because it's a small town on an island the police want the martial arts hero to take the law into their own hands and do physical violence against some bad actors? Like, that's actually their policy? Why don't they just arrest the villains? They are the police, right? Makes no sense.



> Three, at this point it's act three. We had the Dark Moment and breakup, and he just learned who the puppet master villain is through means he can't take to the police, because someone else was doing hijinks and sneaking around trespassing to get the needed clue. He's running toward the final confrontation and Grand Gesture; that cannot be a physical confrontation because it morally doesn't accomplish anything to punch a frail blackmailer. It has to be a reputation fight, because that's what the blackmailer is good at.



So he can't talk to the police but he knows the police want him to beat up the villains, even though he does not trust the police, and what's this about a clue? What's a Grand Gesture? What's a reputation fight as opposed to a physical confrontation?

So far, this sounds a little ironpony.



> So for plot purposes, I need to
> Show a fight in the modern day to show how much he hates fighting now, unlike when he was younger
> Confront the villain in a gossip/reputation fight
> Clean up, run to the ferry, grovel, get the girl
> Don't leave loose ends



I really would like to offer help but have no idea Maybe workshop it or some of it to kind of put what you're saying in context?


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## ironpony (Apr 13, 2019)

Sorry, but I as well, am lost by it.



luckyscars said:


> So far, this sounds a little ironpony.



Like me how ?


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## moderan (Apr 13, 2019)

ironpony said:


> Sorry, but I as well, am lost by it.
> 
> 
> 
> Like me how ?



"...plotting help, not research."


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## Olly Buckle (Apr 13, 2019)

If I am reading it right he has done some serious damage, but has justification, camera evidence and witnesses. The police have picked him up, he has to get out as soon as possible  because he has stuff to do.

Policemen generally are not interested in innocence, they want a conviction, for something. Anything you say will be used by them to try and get you to open up more on the basis that the more you open up the more you are likely to say something incriminating; ergo it is best to say nothing. They won't put up with you pretending to be dumb, but after you have repeated 'No comment, I want a solicitor' many times they get you one. He will then demand they either charge or release you and point out the evidence of innocence.


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## Dluuni (Apr 14, 2019)

luckyscars said:


> I don't know what it means to say 'his fighting skills keep getting set up' (like what does that even mean, set up?)


In the flashback, he had anger issues and an abusive family, and the first meet-cute actually involved beating up bullies. Later on, the villain tries to portray him as being violent and dangerous. Everybody knows that he actually has the _ability _to be; one of the character arcs is to show that he now HATES violence, but I can't really highlight that without forcing him to deal with violence _somehow_.


luckyscars said:


> the idea of having the ability to fight but not actually having to use it is pretty central, as far as I know, to most martial art philosophies, so the notion that his reluctance to fight despite the villains taunts and this somehow makes him weak or 'a bad moral statement' seems misguided.


It wasn't obvious to my writing group. I'm not marketing to people who are familiar with martial arts stuff; "cis guys who know about martial arts enough to understand how the philosophies work" is part of the demographic I expect zero sales to. I write kissing books. 


luckyscars said:


> So because it's a small town on an island the police want the martial arts hero to take the law into their own hands and do physical violence against some bad actors?


No, but he's on foot in a bounded place being chased by people in a car who know who he is and how to find him.


luckyscars said:


> Why don't they just arrest the villains? They are the police, right?


They do, but in the current draft they get there late. I can adjust the scene to fit; I don't have to have it run exactly like this, but I am trying to accomplish certain story goals.


luckyscars said:


> what's this about a clue? What's a Grand Gesture? What's a reputation fight as opposed to a physical confrontation?


There has been a lot of stochastic terrorism directed anonymously at the hero. The Dark Moment (end Act II, start Act III, the moment when the heroes lose hope) involved a fake police report, so the police have a floating "false report" charge without a name attached to it. The sidekick just found who did it, but there was ill advised sneakery involved in getting that name, because the sidekick is, well.. ill advised and sneaky.
A Grand Gesture is, well.. Think the bit in a rom-com where the hero is running down the street with a parade of people to race into a church and stop the wedding or get on the plane to Africa with the heroine or something.
But first, he needs to make the Villain stop chasing them. Punching them won't work, it just gives the villain more ammunition. So he's going to show up in front of a gossip who has been ruining his reputation anonymously and beat them by... spreading gossip loudly to the villain's friends, in public, to their face. It's like that thing about being a great swordfighter, the story can't be resolved by making Mx. Best-Swordfighter-Ever get in a swordfight; that hope died at the Dark Moment.
So the core issue is that I have a plot point that I have to reconcile with a procedural point somehow. I can adjust how it plays, but I have to figure out how to achieve both the plot beat and not mess up the procedural. So I'm looking for ideas on how to get the procedure to work with the plot point.


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