# Thoughts on Male Vs. Female Fights



## ReySkywalker1 (Feb 11, 2018)

Something that bugs me when I go watch a movie, read a book, or play a video game, there are so many male vs. male or female vs. female fights...gender vs. gender...Why aren't there more Male vs. Female fights?  More specifically, why aren't their more male protagonist vs. female antagonist battles or rivalries? I'm writing a story pitting a male hero vs. a female villain...I'm just wondering anyones ideas or thoughts on this...whenever such a scenario happens in a film for example it always feels scaled back...there isn't much physical fighting at all...one great female lead villain was Elektra from James Bond...but when it came down to the end...all Bond did was shoot her with his gun and she was done...then in the movie Dredd....Judge Dredd kills Ma-Ma (the female leader of this gang) literally with no physical fighting at all...I don't know...I find this all the time and it's quite boring or awkward at least...just seems unrealistic at times. Even when there is a physical fight like between the main hero of 300: Rise of Empire and the villainess Artemisia...there was a pretty good sword battle going between them but one thing that stirred me wrong was he gave her a 2nd chance...to give her a chance to live...but she refused attacked him and he coincidentally killed her with a sword to her gut.  It seems like a lot of times male heroes will give the female villains a 2nd chance...to redeem themselves. Almost all the time.  

In my story, I want the male hero to physically fight the female villain with everything he's got, no holding back and not giving her a chance to change her ways...to allow her a chance to live despite all her wrongdoings...she's physically fit and strong and a master at combat...incredibly dangerous...what I'm getting at here is I don't think there should be a difference whether a male hero fights a male or female villain...why should the male hero hold back just because he's fighting a woman instead of a man?  I realize there are certain things audiences in general may expect in a film or a book in regards to this for a handful of reasons...but if I was in a male protagonist's boots and facing a female villain who wants to kill me, I would do absolutely everything in my power to defend myself and turn the tide against her.  

Interesting topic to bring up and I guess I just want to air my thoughts and perhaps pick up some advice from any of you interested in discussing.


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## ironpony (Feb 11, 2018)

It bothers me too after seeing it so much now.  One movie that's a really good example of this is Fast and Furious 6.
.

SPOILER FROM MOVIE


Basically in the action climax, DSS agent Hobbs (Dwayne Johnson), finds out that his partner Riley (Gina Carano) has betrayed him and was actually working for the villains. She also got other DSS agents and innocent people killed as a result of her betrayal. So Hobbs wants to kill her to avenge what she did. During the fight sequence, Hobbs gains the upper hand, and gets a gun and points it her.

Riley is now unarmed with a gun on her, and Hobbs can shoot her to avenge what she did now. However, instead of just shooting her, he tosses the gun to Letty (Michelle Rodriguez), and Letty pulls the trigger for him, and shoots her dead.

Now I thought that this was really dumb. I mean Hobbs, wants to avenge what she did, but the filmmakers seem to have felt that you can't have a male character exacting revenge on a woman, so he must throw the gun to another female character and have her do it.

But Hobbs has had no problem killing in cold blood like he did in the previous Fast and the Furious movie, and now all of a sudden he has a problem avenging comrads' deaths, because it's a woman this time? I mean aren't the filmmakers just being too sensitive and too PC now, where it just makes a person roll their eyes and get taken out of the movie now?

Plus Hobbs, comes off as this merciless tough agent who has no problem killing to avenge with his extremely muscular physique, goatee, and shaved head.. Yet he just completely hands his testicles over to Michelle Rodriguez and wimps out in the end, all because of Hollywood PC writing.

One movie that breaks this whole gender thing is Live Free or Die Hard, as the filmmakers have no problem showing Bruce Willis kicking a henchwoman's butt, which I felt refreshing.


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## Xenization (Feb 12, 2018)

I think it has a lot to do with wanting to be responsible about abuse against women on part of the movie makers and authors. Just saying, having your hero beat up a woman might end up giving people the impression that it is ok... which it is not. Justifying it by saying that "well they did x" isn't right either because well that is the justification most abusers use. "Well, they didn't do x so I had to..." 

Just saying... before you all go down this road that you do need to think on why it is not happening in the first place. And unless you can find a super duper way of not raising any of the above issues in your fight scenes then I would advise you to take Hollywoods actions on board and don't have the fight scene.


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## Jeko (Feb 12, 2018)

Gender dynamics play an important role in how we read and write stories. Back in the middle ages when 'Romance' was budding as a genre of swords and spells, men did all the fighting, and women were often the reason why. Fast forward into the present day and Hollywood has a rich history of abusing women on screen and behind the scenes, which has made a lot of viewers associate violence against women with wider misogynistic attitudes.

In the end? If you can write your male character's aggression as realistic, I'd see it as a mark of respect towards the woman he's fighting. When someone has killer intent, they don't think about gender paradigms - they fight like they mean it. Fears about violence against women being propagated in media are well-founded if that violence is written as some kind of indulgence, but a proper action=packed fight should carry equal tension for both participants. That makes the characters humanized.


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## Sam (Feb 12, 2018)

Xenization said:


> I think it has a lot to do with wanting to be responsible about abuse against women on part of the movie makers and authors. Just saying, having your hero beat up a woman might end up giving people the impression that it is ok... which it is not. Justifying it by saying that "well they did x" isn't right either because well that is the justification most abusers use. "Well, they didn't do x so I had to..."
> 
> Just saying... before you all go down this road that you do need to think on why it is not happening in the first place. And unless you can find a super duper way of not raising any of the above issues in your fight scenes then I would advise you to take Hollywoods actions on board and don't have the fight scene.



But it's okay for women to fight men and no gives a crap about any message that sends?


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## bdcharles (Feb 12, 2018)

I denfinitely feel the same. In my series I have a number of dominant female characters that seem to have been borne of a similar feeling. But there's no get-out-of-jail-free. I want them all - men and women - to show me what they are made of, and it doesn't always go the way the woman might like, because the forces of this universe are indifferent and punishing. They are gutted, dashed against rocks, lost at sea, and in one instance, chopped up by a propeller. One who survives all this, and frequently initiates it, is a particularly brutal warrior. She is on the protagonist's side but stole her lover in the fires of war, getting pregnant by him in the early part of the sequel. She is really quite unpleasant. She frequently kills her  comrades if they slow her down or bore her, but she develops an  obsession with the protag. when they do eventually meet. It's  probably the closest thing to guilt she can feel. But I want to convey not a desire to, er, chop women up in a flurry of whirring blades, but to show them as human, as real, as flawed and as powerful as the men they get thrown in with. Not all of them are powerful. But as in life, neither are my men. The chap who saves the day alongside the protag. in book one is a knight, but he's about the shittest knight there could be. Skinny, asthmatic, doesn't like to ride horses, slow moving, bearing a bookish proclivity towards valour, and just kind of weedy, he is nonetheless assured a place in legend. His face just fits, you know? He's like a cartoon caricature of a knight. Basically I like an underdog. 



Sam said:


> But it's okay for women to fight men and no gives a crap about any message that sends?



Is it ok? Who says it is? I didn't say that. Did somebody write that? Where did I say that?



Actually, it is totally ok. I want blood, and lots of it. Doesn't matter whose. The message is in how my characters react to the hands dealt them by their creator, aka yours truly.


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## Annoying kid (Feb 12, 2018)

Big budget films and AAA video games are bad examples. Because of course they're not going to take any risks. They're the Mcdonalds and Coca Cola of storytelling. The people who have final cut are a bunch of corporate executives.

If you're a novelist, or an independent film maker, I question why you would compare yourself to them or care about this in general. Kick ass the movie had an eleven year old girl getting an ass whooping from a grown man, because it was adapted from a graphic novel that wasn't written from corporate consensus.

The real tragedy is when authors, artists and independent budget film makers, and to some extent television shows, people who should be at the forefront of avant garde or challenging storytelling, decide that Hollywood and AAA video games are gold standard and decide to write like that, due to being increasingly brought up by that.


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## Xenization (Feb 12, 2018)

Sam said:


> But it's okay for women to fight men and no gives a crap about any message that sends?



??? That would still be a male vs. Female fight scene. Any fight scene between a man and a women must be treated with care so that it does not condone abusive actions.


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## Annoying kid (Feb 12, 2018)

That's just a warning to moviegoers. What third world country do you live in where writers can be taken to court for their writing and need to defend themselves?  North Korea? 

And "Boycotts" are brilliant. They're free publicity and makes more people want to see the thing that's so controversial. If Grand theft Auto is still going strong, there really is no reason for an author to lose sleep over their male vs female fight scene.


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## kaminoshiyo (Feb 12, 2018)

At least for physical fights grounded more in reality, there are very few situations where a man will seriously scrap with a woman and not end up destroying her (unless this is with things like guns where strength is not so much a factor). In nature, bigger tends to win. 

I am not sure, but I find that most people, when they resort to signifying strength, go with escalation or equivocation. They make their challenger either as strong or more powerful than the adversary. I'd like to offer you the idea that there are other ways to signifying strength than overpowering someone or something. In terms of females, you can still leave your character as a scrappy fighter. I'm not sure if your story is fiction or not, but if it is based more in reality, realize that she is often not going to be a direct physical match for men outside of a situational context. This is okay. Maybe she likes to use brass knuckles. Maybe she likes to be sneaky. Maybe she finds ways to distract her opponents or uses their environment against them or draws them into places or positions where they compromise themselves. The idea here is to not spoil your idea of a strong woman by gifting her with unrealistic strength or power which will come of more as a charity, if not pity or wish-fulfillment. It's harder to write resourcefully, but woman are born with an inherent disadvantage to men in the physical department and so they _have _to be resourceful. That's a good story and good character. 

It might be hard to decide which female heroines of history are authentically strong and accomplished rather than celebrated and pumped up, but examine their lives. How did they deal with seemingly overwhelming threats and overpowering situations? Did pull a sword on a knife or did they throw gas in the persons face? 

If this is a way of showing female strength or shucking off the idea that females only get by at the mercy of males...show it in a way that is more realistic to the female situation in reality. Females do have strength, but it is a different kind of strength than males. Not one set in stone such that only one can have this or that, but one of situation and perspective. The last thing you want to do to show a strong female character, is to basically turn her into a man.


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## Bayview (Feb 12, 2018)

kaminoshiyo said:


> At least for physical fights grounded more in reality, there are very few situations where a man will seriously scrap with a woman and not end up destroying her (unless this is with things like guns where strength is not so much a factor). In nature, bigger tends to win.
> 
> I am not sure, but I find that most people, when they resort to signifying strength, go with escalation or equivocation. They make their challenger either as strong or more powerful than the adversary. I'd like to offer you the idea that there are other ways to signifying strength than overpowering someone or something. In terms of females, you can still leave your character as a scrappy fighter. I'm not sure if your story is fiction or not, but if it is based more in reality, realize that she is often not going to be a direct physical match for men outside of a situational context. This is okay. Maybe she likes to use brass knuckles. Maybe she likes to be sneaky. Maybe she finds ways to distract her opponents or uses their environment against them or draws them into places or positions where they compromise themselves. The idea here is to not spoil your idea of a strong woman by gifting her with unrealistic strength or power which will come of more as a charity, if not pity or wish-fulfillment. It's harder to write resourcefully, but woman are born with an inherent disadvantage to men in the physical department and so they _have _to be resourceful. That's a good story and good character.
> 
> ...



I agree that the average man is stronger than the average woman, but our characters are rarely average, are they?

I don't think it's all unrealistic for a stronger-than-average and better-trained-than-average woman to beat an average man. Put Joe Schmo off the street in the octagon with a female MMA fighter and see what happens.

Now, when both the man and woman are stronger-than-average and better-trained-than-average, (eg. two MMA fighters) I agree the man would have an advantage.

So, in terms of the thread - I think we should do what's right for our individual characters, not what's right for "women" or "men" as monoliths.


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## ironpony (Feb 12, 2018)

Annoying kid said:


> Big budget films and AAA video games are bad examples. Because of course they're not going to take any risks. They're the Mcdonalds and Coca Cola of storytelling. The people who have final cut are a bunch of corporate executives.
> 
> If you're a novelist, or an independent film maker, I question why you would compare yourself to them or care about this in general. Kick ass the movie had an eleven year old girl getting an ass whooping from a grown man, because it was adapted from a graphic novel that wasn't written from corporate consensus.
> 
> The real tragedy is when authors, artists and independent budget film makers, and to some extent television shows, people who should be at the forefront of avant garde or challenging storytelling, decide that Hollywood and AAA video games are gold standard and decide to write like that, due to being increasingly brought up by that.



This is true.  Another movie example is Sudden Impact.  Dirty Harry is attacked by a female baddy of the gang he is investigating, and as the female baddy is punching him and trying to get on top of him, He nails her right in the face and breaks her nose, sending her to the floor, incapacitated.  My gf who was watching it with me, leaned back in her seat and was like "holy #@#$".  I think she may have had a problem with it, but I hated that female villain, as she really sinister, and wanted Harry to punch her or do something.


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## ReySkywalker1 (Feb 13, 2018)

ironpony said:


> It bothers me too after seeing it so much now.  One movie that's a really good example of this is Fast and Furious 6.
> .
> 
> SPOILER FROM MOVIE
> ...



Hey, thanks for your input and example there. Hard to believe I have yet to watch the Fast & Furious series...I've heard they have some pretty badass women in there...but yeah...with the whole Hobbs vs. Riley thing...that's what I'm getting at...can't a male kill a female baddie? Feels like in Hollywood it's forbidden that a male kill a female character...it HAS to be a male killing a male character or a female killing a female character...apparently it works if a female kills a male character but not the other way around. 

I will definitely have to check out Live Free or Die Hard...now I'm really not much of a movie person but with the novel I'm currently writing I need to dig into this subject matter more...a male protagonist kicking a female villain's butt. As far as the story I'm writing goes, I don't take kicking my main female villain's butt lightly...she's a hard one to kick...especially since she's extremely dangerous...my male protagonist will want to hurt her for the damage and destruction she has caused to the world. And I'm not talking about guns...physical combat. So trying to find some good examples of that I can look at for some inspiration. Thank you for the recommend on LFoDH movie, I'm going to research that tonight!


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## ReySkywalker1 (Feb 13, 2018)

Xenization said:


> I think it has a lot to do with wanting to be responsible about abuse against women on part of the movie makers and authors. Just saying, having your hero beat up a woman might end up giving people the impression that it is ok... which it is not. Justifying it by saying that "well they did x" isn't right either because well that is the justification most abusers use. "Well, they didn't do x so I had to..."
> 
> Just saying... before you all go down this road that you do need to think on why it is not happening in the first place. And unless you can find a super duper way of not raising any of the above issues in your fight scenes then I would advise you to take Hollywoods actions on board and don't have the fight scene.



Very true...I know what you're saying...the whole thing about abuse against women, which is very fair and I wholeheartedly agree that that's a good thing. Everyone deserves to be treated equal and respected. But I don't want to alter my story because of that notion. Why is it impossible to have a male hero fight a female villain? Why is it ok in Hollywood for a female hero to beat up a male villain and not the other way around?  I totally understand the abuse against women thing but I think it to be unrealistic in some respects. For my story, I'd like to switchup the formula a bit. In my story my female villain will never be sexually abused or raped or anything like that...I would just like to write a story with sort of a male vs. female rivalry in some sense...sword fights, fist fights, etc.  My villainess is smart and will always wear some sort of armor during her battles...no doubt there will be a final fight scene between my male hero and female villain...there's no question it has to happen and it will be very emotional to be honest. I like treating my characters as equals...I don't like downplaying their ability or capability to fight because of their gender.


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## ReySkywalker1 (Feb 13, 2018)

Cadence said:


> Gender dynamics play an important role in how we read and write stories. Back in the middle ages when 'Romance' was budding as a genre of swords and spells, men did all the fighting, and women were often the reason why. Fast forward into the present day and Hollywood has a rich history of abusing women on screen and behind the scenes, which has made a lot of viewers associate violence against women with wider misogynistic attitudes.
> 
> In the end? If you can write your male character's aggression as realistic, I'd see it as a mark of respect towards the woman he's fighting. When someone has killer intent, they don't think about gender paradigms - they fight like they mean it. Fears about violence against women being propagated in media are well-founded if that violence is written as some kind of indulgence, but a proper action=packed fight should carry equal tension for both participants. That makes the characters humanized.



Exactly. All of my characters...male hero and female villain included...will be very human and very real. Given what my villainess does to my male hero's life and his world...I find his motivation to take her down very authentic and just.  What if my villainess was a dude instead? I don't see it any differently. Why should my male hero treat or view this female villain any differently than if I made her a male villain instead?  If I was inside his shoes, I would do everything in my power to tear down her Empire.  When they fight I will write it in a very respectful way.  My villainess is very intelligent and deserves a lot of respect...she will never be subject to sexual abuse or rape of any sort in the book/series...I know how to write this male vs. female relationship and I feel their relationship (they used to be great allies...but eventually turn into archenemies) will be very emotional to be honest when it comes to an end assuming the final fight will put an end to it.  I guess I just need to write a fight scene between them the correct way and I should be fine. I'm not saying my villainess dies...but assuming she does, I'm not going to have my male hero just shoot an arrow or something into her and call it the end..I want the final fight to be grande. If my villainess goes down, she will give one helluva battle because she is extremely confident in her ability to fight.


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## ReySkywalker1 (Feb 13, 2018)

Annoying kid said:


> Big budget films and AAA video games are bad examples. Because of course they're not going to take any risks. They're the Mcdonalds and Coca Cola of storytelling. The people who have final cut are a bunch of corporate executives.
> 
> If you're a novelist, or an independent film maker, I question why you would compare yourself to them or care about this in general. Kick ass the movie had an eleven year old girl getting an ass whooping from a grown man, because it was adapted from a graphic novel that wasn't written from corporate consensus.
> 
> The real tragedy is when authors, artists and independent budget film makers, and to some extent television shows, people who should be at the forefront of avant garde or challenging storytelling, decide that Hollywood and AAA video games are gold standard and decide to write like that, due to being increasingly brought up by that.



Good points. I feel a lot of writers these days..or at least filmmakers and video game makers...are brought up on this notion that a male hero shouldn't physically hurt a female villain, otherwise the film or game won't be successful.  Hollywood and AAA video games should't be at the forefront...there shouldn't be a gold standard when it comes to storytelling. We definitely don't see a lot of male hero vs. female villain these days in the media...I feel it's so fresh. I'm not going to alter my story because of just some dumb 'gold standard' that a male hero can't hurt a female villain otherwise people won't read my story...I find that ridiculous. If I was inside my own story inside my male hero's boots and knowing my villainess all too well...she's done some very horrible things and her mind is very twisted...I would do everything I could to take her down. If that means by battling her face-to-face then I'll do it...she is a very experienced combatant and extremely dangerous...she is not to be taken lightly by anybody.  And she doesn't possess any supernatural abilities..she is very human and authentic.  Very real.  The thought of even battling her will make nearly everyone in my story quiver in their boots...paralyzed in fear.


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## Ralph Rotten (Feb 13, 2018)

Atomic Blonde
Mister & Mrs Smith
Mad Max Fury Road
Hancock
Aeon Flux

Apparently if you wanna see a movie where women fight men well, you need to watch a Charlize Theron movie.
She makes me all melty inside.  I love tough chicks!


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## ironpony (Feb 13, 2018)

ReySkywalker1 said:


> Hey, thanks for your input and example there. Hard to believe I have yet to watch the Fast & Furious series...I've heard they have some pretty badass women in there...but yeah...with the whole Hobbs vs. Riley thing...that's what I'm getting at...can't a male kill a female baddie? Feels like in Hollywood it's forbidden that a male kill a female character...it HAS to be a male killing a male character or a female killing a female character...apparently it works if a female kills a male character but not the other way around.
> 
> I will definitely have to check out Live Free or Die Hard...now I'm really not much of a movie person but with the novel I'm currently writing I need to dig into this subject matter more...a male protagonist kicking a female villain's butt. As far as the story I'm writing goes, I don't take kicking my main female villain's butt lightly...she's a hard one to kick...especially since she's extremely dangerous...my male protagonist will want to hurt her for the damage and destruction she has caused to the world. And I'm not talking about guns...physical combat. So trying to find some good examples of that I can look at for some inspiration. Thank you for the recommend on LFoDH movie, I'm going to research that tonight!



The last TV shows I can think of where a man killed a female villain in cold blood are 24 and Breaking Bad.  The protagonists Jack Bauer, and Walter White do it in both shows.  And the fans of the shows didn't really have a problem with this, or they were not making any screams about it online that I knew about.  I think maybe a lot of fiction underestimates what the fans will accept, but maybe I'm wrong.  You could argue that in Breaking Bad, the hero is quite the villain as well, but in 24, Jack Bauer is an anti-hero and he killed unarmed and helpless female baddies, twice in order to avenge his lovers deaths.


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## ironpony (Feb 14, 2018)

Here's a fight scene between a man and a woman in Goldeneye, that is more rough than usual:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcRIl3VUUss

Goideneye is one of the more popular Bond movies, and it doesn't seem to bother the fans that Bond has to fight and kill a woman.


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## ReySkywalker1 (Feb 14, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Atomic Blonde
> Mister & Mrs Smith
> Mad Max Fury Road
> Hancock
> ...



Same!!! Thanks for the recommends! I need to check out more of Charlize's works! For some reason, I've always have had a heart for tough girls! Wanna make sure I get my best one in my story right. I'll definitely check all of those movies you recommend out!


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## ReySkywalker1 (Feb 14, 2018)

ironpony said:


> The last TV shows I can think of where a man killed a female villain in cold blood are 24 and Breaking Bad.  The protagonists Jack Bauer, and Walter White do it in both shows.  And the fans of the shows didn't really have a problem with this, or they were not making any screams about it online that I knew about.  I think maybe a lot of fiction underestimates what the fans will accept, but maybe I'm wrong.  You could argue that in Breaking Bad, the hero is quite the villain as well, but in 24, Jack Bauer is an anti-hero and he killed unarmed and helpless female baddies, twice in order to avenge his lovers deaths.



Thanks for the recommendations! I actually just checked out the Bond vs. Xenia in Goldeneye this morning, that was a really good example! Breaking Bad and 24 have been on my to-do list for ages, I will need to check them out now. I am placing a lot of importance in my villainess and how I write her...so the more inspiration the better. I'm getting a really good feel now for who she is by seeing some of these examples of female baddies and seeing these male heroes fight against them.  I'm really proud of who my villainess is becoming on her own...she won't be a copycat of any other villain out there...she drives her own story and will have her own unique motivations.


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## ironpony (Feb 14, 2018)

Sounds like you got some good ideas going.  Here is one of the female killings by the hero in 24, if you don't mind a third season spoiler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMTuRGNxdD8


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## ReySkywalker1 (Feb 15, 2018)

ironpony said:


> Sounds like you got some good ideas going.  Here is one of the female killings by the hero in 24, if you don't mind a third season spoiler:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMTuRGNxdD8



Wow! Very nice! Thanks for sharing that one. I looked her up on the 24 Wiki and sounds like she had it coming for her with all the bad deeds she did. Her death is brutal and not taken lightly. I'm still trying to sort out my male protagonist and perhaps I could look at Jack Bauer for a little bit of inspiration for ideas. My male protagonist will eventually really want to hurt my villainess for all the evil deeds she's done to his family and his world.  Your examples with 24 and BB prove that a male hero can hurt a female villain and audience is still fine with it. I think we see all too often in films and TV shows these days that there is some golden rule about that not happening in many films or shows these days. Well, 24 and BB bust that completely and prove it can be done successfully. I just ordered the 24 Complete Series on Bluray and hope to get it on Saturday to start watching. I'm really looking forward to it and especially to see the relationship between Jack and Nina Myers. Thanks again for all your help!


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## Annoying kid (Feb 16, 2018)

ReySkywalker1 said:


> And she doesn't possess any supernatural abilities..she is very human and authentic.  Very real.  The thought of even battling her will make nearly everyone in my story quiver in their boots...paralyzed in fear.



 I would caution you that, because you'd think that if you use descriptors that sell her abilities to crazier and crazier levels that she'll come off as more and more badass, but there comes a point where it no longer makes her seem better, but makes everyone else come off worse. If I say grown men fall over and start crying based on just the _thought_ of battling her, which isn't that far off from quivering in their boots and being paralyzed in fear... would you say oh my god, she's so amazing! Or would you think these men need to grow a backbone? \\/


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## ironpony (Feb 17, 2018)

ReySkywalker1 said:


> Wow! Very nice! Thanks for sharing that one. I looked her up on the 24 Wiki and sounds like she had it coming for her with all the bad deeds she did. Her death is brutal and not taken lightly. I'm still trying to sort out my male protagonist and perhaps I could look at Jack Bauer for a little bit of inspiration for ideas. My male protagonist will eventually really want to hurt my villainess for all the evil deeds she's done to his family and his world.  Your examples with 24 and BB prove that a male hero can hurt a female villain and audience is still fine with it. I think we see all too often in films and TV shows these days that there is some golden rule about that not happening in many films or shows these days. Well, 24 and BB bust that completely and prove it can be done successfully. I just ordered the 24 Complete Series on Bluray and hope to get it on Saturday to start watching. I'm really looking forward to it and especially to see the relationship between Jack and Nina Myers. Thanks again for all your help!



Oh well your welcome, but don't buy all of 24 just to get a sense of men vs. women though, if that's your only reason.


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## ReySkywalker1 (Feb 17, 2018)

Annoying kid said:


> I would caution you that, because you'd think that if you use descriptors that sell her abilities to crazier and crazier levels that she'll come off as more and more badass, but there comes a point where it no longer makes her seem better, but makes everyone else come off worse. If I say grown men fall over and start crying based on just the _thought_ of battling her, which isn't that far off from quivering in their boots and being paralyzed in fear... would you say oh my god, she's so amazing! Or would you think these men need to grow a backbone? \\/



Well I definitely don't want to 'overdo' her badassery or abilities. I don't want to type her as this girl who can install fear in everyone and defeat everyone with her physical prowess...she is mortal and like everyone else at the end of the day. She has realistic motivations and she definitely isn't perfect...I've talked a lot about how she is very strong but she is not physically perfect. She has her share of flaws and I think people will find those interesting. There will be people loyal to her who believe her acts are for a greater good.


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## JJBuchholz (Feb 17, 2018)

I have written two examples of female versus male fights in one of my series. The first one ended favourable for the woman, but the second in a later story did not, as she was killed (albeit in a parallel dimension unknowingly created by the antagonist). That's as far as I took it. 

-JJB


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## H.Brown (Feb 17, 2018)

I like the idea of creating badass women in writing and have read many a book with badass characters and seen films where the female characters are badass but "on the side of good" for example, Selene from Underworld. Her fight scenes are awesome. 

However in response about inspiration for a villianess, one female character sprung to mind and that was the character of black siren in the latest series of Arrow, she is female character that has no compunction of killing people in her way. I hope this helps in some way.


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## ReySkywalker1 (Feb 25, 2018)

H.Brown said:


> I like the idea of creating badass women in writing and have read many a book with badass characters and seen films where the female characters are badass but "on the side of good" for example, Selene from Underworld. Her fight scenes are awesome.
> 
> However in response about inspiration for a villianess, one female character sprung to mind and that was the character of black siren in the latest series of Arrow, she is female character that has no compunction of killing people in her way. I hope this helps in some way.



Thank you! Definitely helps! Always good to know of a good example or two for a badass villainess to inspire. Love ones who have great fight scenes especially. I'll have to look Selene and Black Siren up!


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## FireofDarkness (May 9, 2018)

The book _the warrior heir _has some good fight scenes between a male & female (Jack & Ellen); both are good, but they are pitted against each other in sword & physical battle by the people around them. The book has some of their training as well.


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## Patrick (May 10, 2018)

Violence, much like anything else, is often stylised in fiction, and particularly when clashes are established as traditional hero vs traditional villain. The trope simply reflects the virtue of good overcoming malevolence. Something like Kill Bill defeats all our expectations, or certainly did at the time, and features a great deal of violence towards women and men that is incredibly uncomfortable, but I would still say the virtue is found in the female protagonist enduring terrible cruelty and overcoming it to a degree. The idea of gratuitous violence as a pay-off isn't particularly deep, uplifting, or virtuous and especially so when the recipient of such violence is a woman. As a man, I know how men fight and how capable they are of doing sickening harm to one another. The idea of that unrestrained violence being directed at a woman is particularly terrible. Sorry, in my worldview men and women are not the same or as equally capable of all things. Many might have a problem with that in contemporary culture, but I know most would react at a gut level the same way I do to the idea of wanton violence towards anyone and particularly women or children. My writing doesn't consist of "badass" men or women, but I would say that if you want a "badass" female in your novel, she's going to have to take the sort of punishment a "badass" guy would take. I couldn't stomach it, so I wouldn't write it, but I am under no obligation to pretend men and women are the same.


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## Annoying kid (May 11, 2018)

Strangely enough, people don't have that attitude when it's a small(er) man fighting a big henchman. People cheer on the underdog then, and are fine with him taking a beating to get it done. But when it's a woman it's becomes too "uncomfortable."I do believe that's what's known as a double standard.


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## kunox (May 11, 2018)

I found that there was this tiny girl that was stronger than me.  I am 6.4 with scoliosis but this 5.4 girl who trained to be a fighter could push her fist up against mine and push me back.  We did a short strength contest that's how I know.


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## Sir-KP (May 11, 2018)

ReySkywalker1 said:


> In my story, I want the male hero to physically fight the female villain with everything he's got, no holding back and not giving her a chance to change her ways...


So please do it as you wish.


If a villain female character appears to be a huge threat for your male protagonist, then a threat is a threat and she needs to be destroyed. Of course, there can always be a chance for your protagonist to back down instead, for example: "Damn she looks like my ex-gf. I ain't hitting that face" and then the next thing he realized is that he's strangled with an armbar. :nonchalance: But at least there was a reason for him to break out of his concentration and had his table turned.


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## falsedothraki (Jul 7, 2018)

Good point. Go write that story pal. If you wait on others to produce what you want to see you'll wait a damn long time.


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## Kevin (Jul 7, 2018)

Rhonda Rousy- training, attitude, acceptance of pain, training, actual fighting...
There's some Philipina/Thai kick boxer chicks that you could punch and they'd kick your legs out. A shin bone sunk to the thigh bone does wonders to defeat a larger opponent. I get all SS officer Hans Landa/goosebumpy just thinking about it.


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## Annoying kid (Jul 8, 2018)

He's not battling the woman though. His real opponent is cultural attitudes. 

That expect him to pity an evil woman. And show some remorse. Unless she was about to kill another woman or a child. Society doesn't have the kind of empathy for men where a grown man can mercilessly kill a woman just to protect himself because men aren't perceived as vulnerable. That attitude even extends to feminists, who say "Men don't have to worry about walking the streets alone at night". 

So it's culturally expected that the man do everything he can to avoid the kill and only kill a woman when he has to, and to be fighting for more than his own personal safety.


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## ironpony (Jul 8, 2018)

Annoying kid said:


> He's not battling the woman though. His real opponent is cultural attitudes.
> 
> That expect him to pity an evil woman. And show some remorse. Unless she was about to kill another woman or a child. Society doesn't have the kind of empathy for men where a grown man can mercilessly kill a woman just to protect himself because men aren't perceived as vulnerable. That attitude even extends to feminists, who say "Men don't have to worry about walking the streets alone at night".
> 
> So it's culturally expected that the man do everything he can to avoid the kill and only kill a woman when he has to, and to be fighting for more than his own personal safety.



But in fiction like the show 24, the protagonist has killed at least two unarmed female characters, so they wouldn't be a threat later, and the fans of the show never blinked an eye at it, or stirred up any controversy over it. 

The protagonist in Breaking Bad also did the same thing.  So perhaps society is more understanding of it than one might think cause of 24 and Breaking Bad things like that?


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## Annoying kid (Jul 8, 2018)

ironpony said:


> But in fiction like the show 24, the protagonist has killed at least two unarmed female characters, so they wouldn't be a threat later, and the fans of the show never blinked an eye at it, or stirred up any controversy over it.  So perhaps society is more understanding of it than one might think cause of 24 and things like that?



In 24, Jack Bauer is usually fighting to save whole cities and prevent wars and is on a very stressful deadline. And he uses a gun. He doesn't beat women to death does he?


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## ironpony (Jul 8, 2018)

No he used again and made it quick.  Beating a woman to death with fists compared to a weapon might be different but it depends on the circumstances.  The OP described a situation where the hero doesn't have the luxury of a weapon and has to kill someone unarmed, or at least I think that's what he is going for.

But I think the James Bond fight where Bond kills a woman with a helicopter, was a good example I gave, as it wasn't exactly death with a quick gun or anything.  And that Bond movie is considered by fans to be one of the better ones, and they didn't complain.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 8, 2018)

The usual formula for fights & conflicts is that the person who is getting their ass kicked at the beginning will be the winner.
The hero always gets beat in the beginning, usually beat until they are about to break...
then they snap back and close the deal

So if your [male] hero s fighting a [female] villain, then likely the villain will get in their licks first, beating the hero until he is almost done,
then he snaps back and defeats her [smartly]. So she will have earned her ass kicking by the time it happens. Build it so every reader is ready to beat her up themselves.

And don't get so caught up in comitting some vague cultural _faux pas_. That's boring writing.
You WANNNA write stuff that shocks and mortifies.
Your book has to compete with reality TV, DJT, Oprah, and rap music. 
Don't be afraid to offend. Some eggs will be cracked.


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## Book Cook (Jul 10, 2018)

This should not even be a question. Modern mediums and media have everyone really confused about reality so they could drive a wedge between genders. Just remember that political equality does not equal evolutionary equality. It's really high time for things like this to stop being a topic. You want to write about heroes and superpowers, then yes, you can do whatever you want. But if you want your story to be grounded in reality, then there is no equality when men fight women. Period. It has been said for a very long time that poison is a woman's weapon, for good reason.


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## Bayview (Jul 10, 2018)

Book Cook said:


> This should not even be a question. Modern mediums and media have everyone really confused about reality so they could drive a wedge between genders. Just remember that political equality does not equal evolutionary equality. It's really high time for things like this to stop being a topic. You want to write about heroes and superpowers, then yes, you can do whatever you want. But if you want your story to be grounded in reality, then there is no equality when men fight women. Period. It has been said for a very long time that poison is a woman's weapon, for good reason.



Don't be silly. Placing all "women" and all "men" into the same categories leads to absurdity. There are lots of women would could fight and win against lots of men. Ronda Rousey could probably kick the asses of the majority of the male population. That's without looking into weapons being used, etc. A top female fighter couldn't win a fair fight against a top male fighter, no. But that doesn't mean no woman could win a fight against any man, which is what your post suggests.


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## Pete_C (Jul 10, 2018)

Book Cook said:


> This should not even be a question. Modern mediums and media have everyone really confused about reality so they could drive a wedge between genders. Just remember that political equality does not equal evolutionary equality. It's really high time for things like this to stop being a topic. You want to write about heroes and superpowers, then yes, you can do whatever you want. But if you want your story to be grounded in reality, then there is no equality when men fight women. Period. It has been said for a very long time that poison is a woman's weapon, for good reason.



I can guarantee you that my sister would kick your arse, my arse and any other man's arse. No poison, no guns, just fists.


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## Art3mis (Jul 10, 2018)

"Fights". Do you mean "arguments" or "battles"? If you mean no. a) I can tell woman are verbal and not like man clear it up with the fist. Battles make no difference.


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## Book Cook (Jul 10, 2018)

Bayview said:


> Don't be silly. Placing all "women" and all "men" into the same categories leads to absurdity. There are lots of women would could fight and win against lots of men. Ronda Rousey could probably kick the asses of the majority of the male population. That's without looking into weapons being used, etc. A top female fighter couldn't win a fair fight against a top male fighter, no. But that doesn't mean no woman could win a fight against any man, which is what your post suggests.


 
There are exceptions to every rule. Would you get so upset if I said that birds fly? Probably not. You'd agree with me. You wouldn't say that I'm being offensive for excluding penguins and chickens and whatnot in that one sentence. There are women with mustaches and men with expressed breasts who've never had need to put a razor to their chin. They're exceptions, not the norm. Saying that a female MMA fighter would beat some guy out there is sophistry. 

Furthermore, that was not what the OP wondered. She wondered why doesn't a trained man battle it out with a trained woman on ostensibly equal terms. The thing is that in such a situation there are no equal terms. The outcome is known. I have seen women hitting men, but I've never seen women beating men, no matter how angry they were or what force they used. And I have always only heard "never hit a woman", but never have I heard "never hit a man". And no, I'm not complaining here and screaming double standards this, double standards that. It should be so. Men are programmed to fight. It's a million-year old genetic habit and it doesn't look like we'll be kicking it anytime soon.


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## Pete_C (Jul 10, 2018)

Book Cook said:


> There is no equality when men fight women. Period.





Book Cook said:


> There are exceptions to every rule.



It's make your mind up time...


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## Bayview (Jul 10, 2018)

Book Cook said:


> There are exceptions to every rule. Would you get so upset if I said that birds fly? Probably not. You'd agree with me. You wouldn't say that I'm being offensive for excluding penguins and chickens and whatnot in that one sentence. There are women with mustaches and men with expressed breasts who've never had need to put a razor to their chin. They're exceptions, not the norm. Saying that a female MMA fighter would beat some guy out there is sophistry.
> 
> Furthermore, that was not what the OP wondered. She wondered why doesn't a trained man battle it out with a trained woman on ostensibly equal terms. The thing is that in such a situation there are no equal terms. The outcome is known. I have seen women hitting men, but I've never seen women beating men, no matter how angry they were or what force they used. And I have always only heard "never hit a woman", but never have I heard "never hit a man". And no, I'm not complaining here and screaming double standards this, double standards that. It should be so. Men are programmed to fight. It's a million-year old genetic habit and it doesn't look like we'll be kicking it anytime soon.



Well, I'd get about the same degree of upset about an inaccurate bird statement as I would about an inaccurate women statement, which is to say... I'm not too upset about either. 

But, for clarity, the flying-bird-equivalent of your original post would have to be something like:

This should not even be a question. Modern mediums and media have everyone really confused about reality so they could drive a wedge between animals. Just remember that taxonomic equality does not equal evolutionary equality. It's really high time for things like this to stop being a topic. You want to write about magical creatures like non-flying birds, then yes, you can do whatever you want. But if you want your story to be grounded in reality, then there can be absolutely no flightless birds. Period. It has been said for a very long time that birds of a feather flock together, and flocks can only happen when birds are flying. So, clearly, all birds can fly.


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## Annoying kid (Jul 10, 2018)

You have to ask yourselves if you really want combat realism in your stories. If you really want unarmed fights to be MMA without the appeal of being able to watch it. Realistically they'd have knives and just stab each other on the first rush.

It would be funny though in a subvert audience expectations kind of way. She challenges him, does a complex martial arts demonstration and he just runs up and KO's her with his heavy man fist. Credits roll. The End. 

But due to not having a natural source of anabolic steroids, she at her default position will be disadvantaged in strength, speed, endurance, reach, reaction time and weight. So her training is more critical. Indeed one of the reasons to use a woman fighter is to empasize the specialness of the training more.


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## Kevin (Jul 10, 2018)

Now, now... Perhaps he just misinterpreted the expression on your face... In any case, in a fight, depending on the circumstances, really, anything can happen. 

Why I rememeber a story ( in the news) where a man had accosted a sleeping woman after breaking into her home, and she, by grasping certain parts and portions, and twisting them opposite directions (not that I want to get into details) was able to susequently subdue him, although his testosterone levels were obviously higher than hers ( she being a she). Further, she went on to beat him about the head with whatever blunt heavy objects were at her disposal, seaking his painful death I think... that is until the cops came and rescued him. For my part at least, I found it ( the story) to be thoroughly entertaining and only made better as it was true to life/in the news.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 10, 2018)

Book Cook said:


> This should not even be a question. Modern mediums and media have everyone really confused about reality so they could drive a wedge between genders. Just remember that political equality does not equal evolutionary equality. It's really high time for things like this to stop being a topic. You want to write about heroes and superpowers, then yes, you can do whatever you want. But if you want your story to be grounded in reality, then there is no equality when men fight women. Period. It has been said for a very long time that poison is a woman's weapon, for good reason.




I worked in a county jail for 6 years.
Among the staff were many female detentions officers.
Among those female officers there were quite a few who had no trouble standing their ground in supermax or the psyche ward.
Penny, Bodie, Sherri G...just a few of the women I've known who were tough enough to survive in a jail.
If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere. 


I'd never hesitate to answer a backup call with any of them.


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## luckyscars (Jul 11, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> I worked in a county jail for 6 years.
> Among the staff were many female detentions officers.
> Among those female officers there were quite a few who had no trouble standing their ground in supermax or the psyche ward.
> Penny, Bodie, Sherri G...just a few of the women I've known who were tough enough to survive in a jail.
> ...



You remember the names of women who were tough and apparently felt impressed by them. This suggests they were different to average women, otherwise why would that even be a point needing made? 

Look, this is a question of plausibility rather than equality, is it not? It's a biological fact that there are significant, proven physical differences between average women and average men. Why this is relevant to writing FICTION is anybody's guess...but if its worth discussing it's worth discussing honestly. Most domestic disputes involving one man and one women end with the woman coming off worse, and this is why we have things like a "Violence Against Women Act" not a "Violence Against Men Act" and why most women's shelters are populated by women fleeing violent men whereas most men's shelters are not. The AVERAGE man is stronger than the AVERAGE woman, is taller, has a larger heart for more stamina, possesses approximately 30% more upper body strength and is more aggressive. Equally the AVERAGE woman has a better immune system, lives longer and possesses better vision. Who is to say which gender is really stronger? In terms of what is needed for surviving is stamina and strength more important than resistance to disease? 

In the context of fiction all this means nothing because fiction is by definition not true. You can write anything. If you have a burning desire to write of a man beating the snot out of a woman that's your call, just bear in mind it might cause you problems if it comes across as being misogynistic, which it likely will unless you tread very carefully. You don't have to like it, but you cannot square an "I don't care what anyone thinks" attitude with a successful writing career because publishing is ultimately all about catering to readers' perceptions and taking into account the zeitgeist. The world of 2018 still maintains a fundamental difference between Average Joe hitting Average Jane and vice versa.

 This does not make it 'okay for a woman to hit a man' by the way. The point is that you have to be thoughtful in your choices. In an ideal world it's not actually acceptable for anybody to be hurting anybody without good reason, is it?


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## Bayview (Jul 11, 2018)

luckyscars said:


> You remember the names of women who were tough and apparently felt impressed by them. This suggests they were different to average women, otherwise why would that even be a point needing made?
> 
> Look, this is a question of plausibility rather than equality, is it not? It's a biological fact that there are significant, proven physical differences between average women and average men. Why this is relevant to writing FICTION is anybody's guess...but if its worth discussing it's worth discussing honestly. Most domestic disputes involving one man and one women end with the woman coming off worse, and this is why we have things like a "Violence Against Women Act" not a "Violence Against Men Act" and why most women's shelters are populated by women fleeing violent men whereas most men's shelters are not. The AVERAGE man is stronger than the AVERAGE woman, is taller, has a larger heart for more stamina, possesses approximately 30% more upper body strength and is more aggressive. Equally the AVERAGE woman has a better immune system, lives longer and possesses better vision. Who is to say which gender is really stronger? In terms of what is needed for surviving is stamina and strength more important than resistance to disease?
> 
> ...



I'm glad you pointed out the "writing fiction" part of your post, because... we're writing fiction. We're not writing "average" characters, not writing amalgams of all humans of a specific class. We're writing individuals.

So averages don't matter in fiction, except insofar as they give us a baseline for our characters to depart from.

If someone wants to say that the average woman is physically weaker than the average man, I won't argue with them. But if they say it in a writers' forum, I'll ask them why they think it matters.


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## ironpony (Jul 11, 2018)

My martial arts teacher said he knows a woman who is a student from his former class, and she could overpower any man she fought, and was able to reach a black belt champion.  So it is possible to have a woman that is a big threat I think in that sense.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 14, 2018)

Size and strength and great factors when you are fighting ordinary schmoes.
But size & strength are diminished when fighting trained or experienced attackers.
People who use force regularly (like jailors or cops) tend to have a distinct advantage over the rest of the world because they are used to doing it.
Fighting is like writing or flying or anything else: those who practice will have greater skills, and those that have not get their asses kicked.

Some of the toughest people I ever knew, in the military, or a jail, were not particularly big guys.  
Size does not make you tough.  The biggest whiners on earth are the humps in Supermax.


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## luckyscars (Jul 14, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Size and strength and great factors when you are fighting ordinary schmoes.
> But size & strength are diminished when fighting trained or experienced attackers.
> People who use force regularly (like jailors or cops) tend to have a distinct advantage over the rest of the world because they are used to doing it.
> Fighting is like writing or flying or anything else: those who practice will have greater skills, and those that have not get their asses kicked.
> ...



Agreed.

How about this for a compromise, then: You can write about a physical altercation between a man and a woman if you feel the desperate need to...however if you are going to have it so that the woman beats up the man you ARE going to have to offer some explanation for this outcome, whether it be by giving her an advantage in her training or technique, her wits, her physique or by introducing some element of good fortune. You will need to address the audience's preconceived notions of female weakness in a thoughtful and coherent manner and not allow some hollow idea of settling a score to interfere with the credibility of your work.

 Equally if you are going to have it so that the man beats the snot out of a woman it must be consistent with his character also and you will need to work harder to justify it to your reader.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 18, 2018)

Agreed. You would need some justification for her beating him.  

But no one even balked when Bruce Willis beat up that little ninja hottie in the last Die Already.

Sorry, meant Die Hard.


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## Caden_S (Jul 19, 2018)

I _am_ one of these women who, while not yet at the point that I'd win against any man, at least I have a fighting chance. I do combatives, and the biggest thing that decides a fight is the mind. If you go in with the killer-mindset, you've got a better chance to break the other than if you hold back. You've got to be absolutely focussed and willing to inflict major injuries if you want to be the 'victor'. Most people don't do that.

Nature and culture being what it is, most people, very sensibly, are conditioned to avoid injury, either themselves or the opponent. Going in, forgetting hesitancy, or plain old terror (also of what comes after, because the consequences of killing/inflicting major injury to your opponent is a matter for the law and nothing to joke about) and doing whatever is needed to stop the threat, is something they don't want to do, deep down. But it wins the fight.

I can tell a story, back from my Karate days. Three years, blue belt, and we got paired with black belts and told to do a rotational kick to the head—full force. The blacks should supposedly ward it off. I couldn't do it. I tried for a solid five minutes, but didn't get even close to hitting full force. That was pure conditioning.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 19, 2018)

Agreed!

Most adults would be hard pressed to remember the last time they were in a fist fight.


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## bazz cargo (Jul 19, 2018)

Interesting....
My 2c,
There is no gender bias to being psychologically screwed up. The root of aggression is fear. If it is a choice between me or her, I'm going down fighting dirty. The best thing about writing fiction is being able to 'play' with the readers mind.
Good luck
BC


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 19, 2018)

bazz cargo said:


> Interesting....
> My 2c,
> There is no gender bias to being psychologically screwed up. The root of aggression is fear. If it is a choice between me or her, I'm going down fighting dirty. The best thing about writing fiction is being able to 'play' with the readers mind.
> Good luck
> BC




Fear, rage, anger. So what?  If you are facing a trained adversary (like the kind of chick who would fist-fight with your MC) none of your Hulk-rage means anything.
She would have the skills and you do not.  She'd clean your clock.


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## bazz cargo (Jul 20, 2018)

Ralph Rotten said:


> Fear, rage, anger. So what?  If you are facing a trained adversary (like the kind of chick who would fist-fight with your MC) none of your Hulk-rage means anything.
> She would have the skills and you do not.  She'd clean your clock.


We agree, I will be the cleanest clock for a long while. Be nice to get a few bites back on the way down.


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## Writer-1 (Jul 25, 2018)

If you want to make the fight between a man and woman tense and interesting, here are a few tips:

1) Make sure that they're equally skilled. It wouldn't be fair if he were a 7th degree black belt and she only saw a few Tae Bo tapes. They did the reverse of that in "Live Free or Die Hard" with Bruce Willis and Maggie Q, but he had a size advantage. And that leads to my next point:
2) Understand your character's strengths and weaknesses, body types, and limitations. In other words, don't make the female fighter fight like Stone Cold Steve Austin (hard punches, taking lots of hits) if she's built like a cheerleader. And don't make the male fighter as fast as Bruce Lee if he looks like Dave Bautista. 
3) Depending on their skill set, have them fight their way down to bare knuckle brawling. So, for instance, if they're sword fighters, then have the fight start with long swords. Then move to short swords, then to daggers, and finally hand-to-hand combat.

When it comes down to man vs. woman, regard them as fighters. And be ruthless. Keep writing, friend.


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## Ralph Rotten (Jul 25, 2018)

A woman can even the playing field by fighting dirty.  She can pick up objects and throw them, or use them as surprise weapons (hitting him in the head before he even realizes she is doing it.)  

There was a movie a few years ago about a female spy, who was played by an actual fighter/martial arts chick (I think) and she had some serious parkour skills.  Movie was called Haywire. It had some really great guy/girl fight scenes (mostly she cleaned clocks like John Wick, but hand to hand.)  I mention it because it would be a good movie to study for your writing.  The actress was pretty awesome, and she really stomped some wholesale ass.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1506999/?ref_=ttls_li_i


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## Malachi (Aug 2, 2018)

Yea just societal gender roles here.


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