# JESUSLAND



## Max SG

JESUSLAND 
by Max Gordon
November 23, 2004

There is a thirteen-year-old boy in America who walks to school this morning. He believes he is a pervert because he is sexually attracted to a boy in his class. Undressing in the locker room for gym, he is terrified he will get an erection or his friends will notice him staring at the other boys and call him a homo.

At night, he lies in bed. He promised God he wouldn't look at pictures of naked men having sex anymore, but he did it again after school. As a punishment, he pinches his penis between his fingernails until he breaks the skin. He believes the pain is good for him. It is only a fraction of the pain that sinners feel when they go to hell, or what Jesus must have felt on the cross.

He sits in church on Sunday and knows the priest is referring to him: deviants whose unnatural desire will keep them from entering the Kingdom of God. When he takes communion, he prays that God will heal the sickness inside him and make him clean and perfect like his Son. He promises to try even harder not to sin than he's ever tried before.

After failing again, he decides he has no more tries left in him. He cannot stop the thoughts or change them. He believes God is disgusted with him and that He refuses to help. He stands looking in the bathroom mirror and wonders if he is what a homo looks like. He thinks of his youngest sister coming home from kindergarten with school papers tucked under her arm, and wonders if the boy from his class is in bed sleeping. He lifts his father's gun and shoots himself in the head.

On January 2, 1997, 14-year-old Robbie Kirkland committed suicide after struggling with his homosexuality for four years. His mother said at the time, "Our family loved, supported and accepted him but could not protect him from the rejection and harassment he experienced at his Catholic schools." On May 8, 1995, Bill Clayton, 17, took a fatal overdose after being hospitalized for depression. He'd been assaulted by a group of boys in his community because of his sexual orientation. Jacob Lawrence Orosco, 17, hanged himself on September 3, 1997, in his mother's home. When Jacob and nine of his friends tried to form a Gay/Straight student alliance at his school, a group of students at a nearby high school formed SAFE-Students against Fags Everywhere.

Anna Wakefield, a lesbian in her 20's from Virginia, hanged herself on February 27, 1997, after being rejected and estranged from her family; Private First Class Barry Winchell, 21, of Kansas City, Missouri, was bludgeoned to death with a baseball bat on July 5, 1999 after rumors that he was gay spread around the post; Steen Fenrich, 19, was killed and dismembered by his stepfather in a homophobic rage, his body found March 21, 2000; Juana Vega, 36, shot in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, November 11, 2001 by her girlfriend's brother, for "turning his sister gay"; Gwen Araujo, a 17-year-old transgender woman from Newark, California, savagely beaten to death on October 3, 2002 by a group of boys at a party; Sakia Gunn, 15, fatally stabbed at a bus stop in Newark, New Jersey, May 11, 2003 after her assailant was told she was a lesbian; Fred Martinez, Jr., a 16-year-old Native American high school student from Cortez, Colorado, found beaten to death, June 21, 2001, his skull crushed with a rock. His 19-year-old killer was heard to have said proudly, "I bug-smashed a fag."

A few days after Kerry's concession, Bill Clinton gave a speech at a conference of the Urban Land Institute in New York. The Daily News quoted him as saying that Kerry could have made more of an impact with small-town voters by emphasizing his opposition to gay marriage. "He said it once or twice, instead of 3,000 times, in rural communities. If we let people believe our party doesn't believe in faith and family, that's our fault." Clinton: our moral authority on marriage and sex. As a gay man in America, perhaps I am responsible for the unraveling of the moral fabric of this country, but I have never used a cigar in bed, and I absolutely draw the line at wearing a dress from the GAP.

America listens to its presidents, present and past. The president sets the tone for tolerance in the land. When a president proposes discriminatory legislation or supports it, however unlikely it may seem that it will be voted into law, the message he sends to the rest of the country is clear: these are the people you have my permission to harm. George W. Bush's proposed constitutional ban on same-sex marriage is more than just a vindictive president's desire to deprive gay men of bridal registry; it is the legislation of hate, and its direct consequence will be the sanctioned murder of America's lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender citizens.

I marvel at the vogue of hate today in this country; who you can freely hate these days and who you can't. You can hate women, and gays, and fat people. You can hate poor people, and the homeless. You can't, however, hate black people or Jews anymore, at least not on television or in print. (You can still hate blacks privately, but Jews are harder; some have blonde hair and it isn't easy to tell if they are in the room.)

Black and white Christians have been revitalized by the same-sex ban, agreeing to suspend their hatred for each other in favor of a combined, galvanized hatred for gays. The GOP hates us all year round, but Democrats are "holiday haters," reserving their hate for special occasions - like close elections. Holiday hate never counts as real hate, of course, it's just politics, like little white (water) lies, and promises (fingers crossed) to pass legislation protecting gays in the military once voted into office.

And finally, the passive-aggressive haters know a constitutional ban on same-sex marriage based on religious belief is wrong, not to mention unconstitutional, but since we are not "personally" affected by it, we’ve decided to watch from the sidelines. Newsflash: there are no sidelines in America anymore. Civil liberties in this country are an endangered species. We may not care that the Texas red wolf is almost extinct in North America, but, living in the same ecosystem, it might be worth noting, as we may be next.

Jesusland, can you honestly say, with all that is wrong in the world today, with millions of people infected with HIV and thousands of new infections each year, with record unemployment, families with no healthcare and billions spent on war, that the greatest moral challenge we face in America today is symbolized by a wedding cake figurine of two grooms?

Is homosexuality contagious or reaching epidemic proportions? How else can the sexuality of one section of the American population singly decide the outcome of an entire presidential election? Only one conclusion can be drawn: Gay people in the heartland are doing some serious fucking. I only wish someone had let me in on it. I thought we were supporting Kerry by voting for him. If gay sex is really that powerful, screw the oil in Iraq, Halliburton should be hooking us up to generators.

Is homosexuality so irresistible that straight men and women are leaving their homes, mesmerized and in droves, to join the gay ranks? The few straight friends I tried to seduce in my post-coming-out insecurity remained politely, but resolutely, straight. To all those who tried to manipulate me into being heterosexual to further their agendas (my mother), I remained resolutely, sometimes impolitely, gay. One might conclude from this that people are what they say they are and we can all get on with things.

Not in Jesusland. Three little words, one tiny sentence, and the best friend's face closes forever, the child is lifted from the lap of the favorite aunt, a mother sends her son his baby pictures with a note saying she no longer has a child, a girl runs away from home to escape her parents' attempts to "beat the devil out of her", a boy is forced see a psychiatrist and take medication to fix his "problem", a transgender teen hangs herself to avoid being ridiculed at a school assembly the next day.

America: you do not have the right to throw your lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender citizens in the garbage. You have a responsibility to protect us whether you like us or not. If you do not approve of gay marriage, do not attend gay weddings. It is not your prerogative to decide who is worthy of your care, or to deny protection to anyone. As American citizens our protection is guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States.

We are in a holy war, a fundamentalist Christian jihad, where the possibility exists as never before that Jesusland will finally become Jesusworld. (I wonder what the rides will look like.) With a faith-based president who doesn't respect the Constitution as separate from his belief in God, there is no difference between extending democracy and extending Christianity. Once you free a citizen for elections, you have to free a soul for salvation.

Accosted by Christians on subway cars when I first came to New York City, I never ceased being amazed at the chutzpah of a stranger suddenly asking me about my relationship with God; not to mention being deeply insulted by the lack of subtlety that announced the intrusion. "That chocolate ice cream looks delicious; do you have a relationship with Jesus Christ?" I knew that no one would ever have the audacity to say to me, "Excuse me, Sir, how much money is in your bank account?" or "Pardon me for asking, how many times did you make love this week?" Yet somehow just anyone can demand to know on the spot what your relationship is with Jesus, which, if you have one, is arguably the most intimate relationship of them all. I admit it crossed my mind on more than one occasion to reply, "Why yes I do, actually, a pretty good one, and fuck you for asking such a personal question."

The most exasperating religious experience ever may be the attempt to convince a born-again Christian that God will allow someone into heaven that isn't "saved" through Jesus Christ. After a brief exchange, I inform the stranger that while I was “saved”, or at least baptized as a child, and my grandfather was a minister of his own church, I have no intention of being part of a religion that doesn't accept me because of my sexuality. My inquisition on the A-train ends and my Jesus interrogator trots off to his next victim, reminding me that "we’re all sinners." He hasn't achieved a new convert, but he's watered that seed of insecurity in me that maybe homosexuality is evil, that gay people do end up in hell and because of what I am, God doesn't like me anymore. It's a child's fear, like dark closets and monsters under the bed, but it can rule a life and last a lifetime.

During the six months after college that I ran around cracking people over the head with my Bible, I remember the extraordinary relief that came from finally having the Answer to Everything. No longer circling endlessly on the parking ramp of life, I had finally found a space. Trying to forge a gay identity on my own was too rangy and uncertain, and if I didn't succeed, what could be more disheartening than failing at being a pervert? The world was much easier to understand with my new faith and broken down into two distinct groups; those who were wrong, and us. I did exactly what they told me to do: love God, accept Jesus, and, like courting Santa Claus, try not to be naughty and always be nice.

Because my homosexuality, however, is dictated not by fashion or trend, but biology and DNA, I couldn't warp or mutilate myself into the desired new result. My naughtiness eventually outweighed my niceness and I was in deep shit. I wasn't told to leave, exactly, but knew that if I wanted to, I could stick around for a sort of exalted pervert status; the old "God loves you, homosexual, because He loves us all - even child molesters, rapists, and serial killers" line that some Christians think is generous.

Certain minds are vulnerable to fundamentalist thinking. Closet gays, immigrants, poor blacks, rich white women with philandering husbands--it draws so many. It's not easy to talk about why fundamentalism is attractive, why a heart might crave it. There comes a time in a life when the world simply becomes too painful for nuance, when it's freezing out and you just want to come inside and have someone say, Relax, we'll take care of you; in fact, we've been waiting for you. Here is the rulebook, no need to ask any questions: just sign here.

There isn't an oppressed person alive who at one point or another hasn't felt the seductive gravity of capitulation. The decision to resist always means thrusting oneself into the vast, unknown and dangerous wilderness of truly being free. One is tormented, at the same time, by the grim suspicion that while a secure existence may never be found in self-determination, a designated place always awaits one who will succumb to the State.

The violence against gay people, religious, emotional, physical or political, has done what social violence is supposed to; it's driven us underground, afraid to demand our rights or protect them when they are threatened. One good, well-publicized, gay murder can do wonders. Those of us who aren't brutalized or obliterated in elaborate campaigns by strangers or our families, are perpetually trapped in nets of chronic shame; our internalized hatred simplifying the work of the bashers by beating them to it.

I was astonished the day I discovered that I was a gay-killer. Indignant over the nationally publicized murders of Matthew Shepard and Brandon Teena, I'd demand a stop to gay bashing, leaving the rally or dinner party for a bashing session of my own with unsafe sex, alcohol and drugs. I had to finally consider the idea that my self-destruction wasn't fabulous or gloriously tragic; it was predictable, and (this hurt the most) not very imaginative. I was complicit with the anti-gay agendas that were aimed at me with the precision of a sniper’s bullet; an accomplice to my own gay assassination. I made a decision that although I wouldn't be able to save every gay life, I could definitely save the one I'd been given. (I'm still saving it; the mistaken assumption being that you only have to save your life once.)

I was a thirteen-year-old boy in East Lansing, Michigan on his way to school in 1983, attracted to a boy in my class, and flooded with the shame and terror that I was gay. My father also kept a Smith & Wesson in his closet. I don't believe I would have used it on myself, but a gun in any house has an aura of potential, waiting for the fatal chemistry of an escalating argument or a very, very bad day. What I did have was a lesbian friend in high school, who, one could say, "died for my sins." She came out of the closet first and when I saw that the coast was clear, I came out after her.

She was humiliated daily by notes shoved in her locker or jokes made as she walked down the hallway. Girls came up to her in groups during lunch and asked, "Are you gay?" to which she replied, "Why, are you interested?" Leaving a gas station one night, a boy, spurned by her refusals, called her a dyke and punched her in the face. She didn't allow the violence to derail her. I don't think Jesusland would have approved of her - a sassy, courageous, I'm-scared-to-death-but-you'll-never-know- it, 17-year-old black lesbian - but Jesus himself might have.

If Jesus is with us, I think he stands beside the black man who faces the lynch mob, the midwife who is brought before the church for being a witch, the bewildered and naked prisoner cowering against his cell wall in Abu Ghraib, the transgender teenager who has decided to dress as herself, no matter what her parents or the kids at school do or say. Jesus stands with all of us, but He especially knows what it's like to be innocent, to be violated and murdered for telling the truth, to face a violent mob and be alone.

America. If only you would purify your hate. When we walk into someone's country and wish to take what they have, let's just take it. Why call it liberating the Iraqi people or Operation Iraqi Freedom? Call it stealing and steal it. If you want to kill someone, don't refer to pre-emptive strikes or wars on terror. Kill them.

And if you want to hate homosexuals, Jesusland, just hate us. But don’t call it a "moral" or "family" issue, or try to legislate it and say, “I still support civil unions." And for Christ's sake, please stop dragging Jesus into it. Hasn't that poor man been through enough? Whether we believe He was the Savior or not, I think we probably all agree that He was a pretty nice guy that loved all kinds of people and never meant harm to anyone.

If He were alive to see this land today, I don't think He'd claim it.


© Max Gordon
http://maxgordonworks.blogspot.com
star1power@aol.com


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## demonic_harmonic

I'm not sure whethere to say 'Perhaps you should put a bit of a warning before this because of graphic nature' or 'STUPID F******!!!! Go rot in hell, idiots who killed that poor kid.'


*cough*


Sorry. Indeed, a lesbian friend of mine was told that if she continued to be a lesbian, she could no longer participate in after school activities. What??? She goes to public school, and this should NOT be allowed to be done. To go along with this, a girl I know wore and 'I love lesbians' shirt to school one day, and got in school suspension for it. At the same time, there were guys wearing the same shirt as her, but they did not get in trouble.


America has something wrong with it. We still judge people based off of stupid things like sexual orientation. Parents still try to tell their kids is it a discusting thing to be queer. And, growing up bisexual (a real bisexual, not just curious who later goes straight anyway), my parents did not know I was queer, but did indeed tell me it was terrible and gross all the time anyway. That is not a good feeling.


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## Smurf Mamita

Pretty good. Hanged is hung, not hanged. 

Um...at first I thought it would be more effective if you didn't write that you're homosexual. but then I thought it was a good idea...I'm rather split on that. 

any other members have opinions?


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## eMBeR Chan

You know why the bible suposedly bans gay relationships? Not because they hate gays but it's breaking the sin of lust. 

Look, back in the old days the only reason for men and women to have sex was to make babies, not for pleasure, that's why christians are against birth control. Gays have sex for just pleasure since they can't reproduce whitch is a sin. 

These days, sex is for pleasure too, and if you deny that yopur a liar or brutaly nieve. THEREFORE banning gay marrage is hypocritical unless you only have sex for babies which is unlikely. 

People seem to have forgotten this since they say 'god hates gays' well if it hates gays it hates you too.


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## Novicewriter

I thought it was very good...well-written and an eye-opener.  It's unfortunate that people have to hide their own sexuality.   If someone is either gay or a lesbian, that's their choice and for goodness sakes let them live their lives...they are people too you know.  Anyway, that's all I have to say about that.


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## ThiNnlinG

wow! An eye opener, indeed. I thought you're second to last paragraph was very exact and that there has been too much ignoring going on in this country of the true issues at hand. You're voice was very clear in your standpoint, and your last line was a statement that no one with a mind not clouded with propaganda and ignroance would accept fully and indisputably.  Your suicide and murder facts were disheartening. I did not know that Americans still lived in such times of hate, even though violence breeds violence, so it would only make sense.  Too bad things have to be this way, but hopefully one day things will change. Great writing style, I crossed no bumpy lines or change of tone.


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## mammamaia

great writing and terribly on-target, sad to say!

great comment from my fellow board members, too... bravo, all o' yez!

love and hugs, maia
[never/not gay and not even 'sexual' any more, since 7 kids is plenty, thanks... and i'm decades past child-bearing age, anyway]

ps:  'hanged' is proper past tense for death by hanging, mamita [see link below]...
http://www.acebo.com/cumber.htm


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## nafecila

Very thought-provoking and well put together. Though I'm not a Christian myself, I'm familiar with some parts of the Bible. I think there's a hierarchy of sins in our society, and to think that homosexuals have been targeted more so than the rapists, murderers, and such is simply outrageous, yet it's also our unfortunate reality. I don't think it's possible for people to ever judge someone for who are they are instead of what they do--not just gays either, I'm talking about every minority group--but all we can do is set an example to hopefully open some of those closed minds. Thanks for sharing your insight and voice through this piece. You said it better than I ever could!


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## zaoshang

Very very well written and impressive, indeed. It's obvious you're an experienced writer. You know how to use words and how to plot ideas. I particularly enjoyed that you told us about the kid's death abruptly, with no warning:



> He thinks of his youngest sister coming home from kindergarten with school papers tucked under her arm, and wonders if the boy from his class is in bed sleeping. He lifts his father's gun and shoots himself in the head.



Now, I might be wrong, but somehow I have the same feeling as Smurf. I feel you're using two different points of view. In fact, not POVs really, but rather standpoints or tones of the narrative. I think what you have here is not one but two stories, which would work better separately. In the first one, the narrator is rather an abstract observer, an "objective" journalist. He gives us facts, which he uses to support his interpretation. It's like: "Hi, I'm the narrator, and I'm talking to you, the reader. You're my friend, and let me tell you a story about them, the gay people and Jesusland."

In the second story there's a different standpoint. The narrator talks about his own experience. He is part of the "we," and his discourse is clearly addressed to "you," Jesusland.

So I'd say this would sound better as two different articles. Again, I admit might be wrong.

Overall, an excellent job.


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## eMBeR Chan

I found the two points of view rather abstract and enjoyed it


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## Emma LB

Great piece! It would be nice if you could get this published in a newspaper...?


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## gohn67

This was really well, written.  Very good read.


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## Kane

Well written, if a bit overstated.  I find the idea of gay marriage somewhat ridiculous.  Why should gay people marry?  Why do straight people marry, but to start a family?  There is nothing stopping gay people from loving each other or living together, why do they need recognition from the government as man and man or wife and wife?  I don't really see the gay-marriage issue as so much an affront to God, because we live in a nearly godless society anyway.  It just seems to niggle at common sense.

One thing does bother me though.  Gay people claim that their attraction to the same sex is a biological thing, attributing it to their DNA.  If this is the case, wouldn't it be the same for the pedophile or bestiophile or some other person who suffers from a sexual attraction to anything but the norm?  If a man cannot help the fact that he looks at another man and finds himself attracted sexually, why is it not the same for a man who looks at a youngster and feels the same thing?  It seems a bit hypocritical to me.

And don't bother with the consenting adults argument, because I'm not advocating rape at any age.  I just think that sexual attraction between anyone but sexually mature male and female is either deviant or is natural.  If it's a deviant psychological problem then we should make efforts to determine the cause and treat it.  If it's completely natural, then we should rethink the way we look at people whose sexual desires don't conform with what we percieve as "right and wrong".  Either way, the current lynch mob mentality has got to go.


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## LensmanZ313

As a Libertarian, I think that both the government and religious organizations should steer clear of regulating marriage. Canada, ever the progressive and forward-thinking neighbor to the North, allows same-sex marriage--and even protects the religious freedoms of clergy who refuse to perfom such ceremonies.

Great read, great message.


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## Pendulum

Kane said:
			
		

> Well written, if a bit overstated.  I find the idea of gay marriage somewhat ridiculous.  Why should gay people marry?  Why do straight people marry, but to start a family?  There is nothing stopping gay people from loving each other or living together, why do they need recognition from the government as man and man or wife and wife?  I don't really see the gay-marriage issue as so much an affront to God, because we live in a nearly godless society anyway.  It just seems to niggle at common sense.



And why shouldn't gay people be able to start a family? Aside from the obvious reason (and there are plenty of childless married straight couples out there anyway), that leads into the question whether homosexuals should be allowed to adopt, or get a surrogate mother. Plenty of moral issues raised here.


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## Rico

well, I'll steer clear of the whole gay marriage issue. As a gay man, I firmly support it, but I refuse to participate here in a flamewar. I'll just throw in one comment and then leave - Kane, you're a narrowminded SOB.

As to your piece, Max, I think it was very well written and enjoyable to read. really did capture my emotions. I don't live in the U.S., but its pretty much the same across most of the world.

(rooting for Spain to legalize a gay marriage bill that's in the works)


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## horrorcrafter

Nice work.

American politicians can go to HELL!

Same to narrow-minded Christian Conservatives.

Keep up the socially significant writing.  "Hung" is fine.

Horrorcrafter


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## Kane

Me, narrow-minded?  I really don't think I am.  I'm actually rather offended that in this day and age, straight people are made to think of themselves as narrow-minded or wrong for believing that people should stick with heterosexual sex.  It seems that today, if you should hold any opinion that isn't in full support of homosexuality you are treated as though you just stepped out of the backwoods.  Like there is something wrong with me for seeing a penis and vagina as naturally compatible.  We live under the general consensus that if it feels good, do it.  There is no more need for self-control or temperance any longer, just complete acceptance of any lifestyle, no matter how debase.

Now, as to my close-mindedness... I've NEVER looked down on anyone for being gay or treated them in a foul manner.  Personally, I don't think it's right that two of the same sex should lie with one another, but I would never impose my will on someone else.  I do, however, enjoy my right to decided for myself and to teach my son what I believe is right and wrong.  I'm terrified of the day when he is old enough to process the liberal agenda that the school system is going to shove down his throat 5 days a week.  I say do as you will: it's your life and no one can live it but you.  However, I do see it as wrong when you infringe on my right to believe as I do without being made to feel bad about myself for it, or likewise my son.  

I apologize if I offended you with my statement that I don't think gays should marry, I just don't see the need.  If I were gay, I wouldn't choose to get married because I don't see a need for it.  I think, if you are going to be in a long term gay relationship, you should be able to receive the same "benefits" as does a married man and woman.  I'm not sure what these benefits should be besides shared health insurance, life insurance, the right to choose health care options if one or the other should be injured... Whatever, you get my meaning.   I just think marriage itself should be left for a man and a woman:  the coming together of two familes as one, to pass on bloodline and the family name and such.  So this makes me a narrow-minded cretin?  I think it's the opposite, that you should make me feel less than normal so you can indulge yourself in sex that goes against what our bodies were made for.

I don't doubt that gay sex feels good, else people probably wouldn't participate in it.  But anal intercourse damages the rectal cavity because it wasn't made for it.  Two lesbians can achieve climax, I am sure, by oral stimulation, an assortment of toys or even digital manipulation, but to say that it's completely natural for two people of the same sex to engage in such an activity is what I view as narrow-minded.  I see it as a justification of your 'lifestyle', and fuck anyone who doesn't cater to our definition of normal.  

I think an adult possesses free will, and should be allowed to exercise that free will, so long as he or she isn't hurting anyone else.  But if you get in my face because I don't jump up and down in adulation over your choice, then you are infringing on my free will.  I think I am very open minded, thank you very much, for me to accept people as they are, even if I don't agree with what they do.


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## Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor

I'm highly skeptical of one point you made.  Where is the evidence that anal intercourse is dangerous; furthermore, if it is dangerous, how is it more dangerous than regular intercourse?


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## Yamato145

Rico said:
			
		

> well, I'll steer clear of the whole gay marriage issue. As a gay man, I firmly support it, but I refuse to participate here in a flamewar. I'll just throw in one comment and then leave - Kane, you're a narrowminded SOB.
> 
> As to your piece, Max, I think it was very well written and enjoyable to read. really did capture my emotions. I don't live in the U.S., but its pretty much the same across most of the world.
> 
> (rooting for Spain to legalize a gay marriage bill that's in the works)


how can you accuse him of being narrow-minded
it really pisses me off that you would accuse someone of being narrow minded just because they dont agree with you!
i mean for all you know he has looked into and intelligently listened to all points of view and has just finally settled on the one that makes the most sense to him which is complete open-mindedness
it just like im a christian ... doesnt mean im open or closed minded
i have looked into many religions and just settled on the one that i truly belive to be right
now had i just assumed christianity was the best without a second thought i would be closed-minded.
-Yamz


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## horrorcrafter

Knowing what is right is one thing.
Forcing that on someone else is another.

Horrorcrafter


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## Hodge

KANE:

Homosexuality occurs in nature. It is perfectly natural, can not be changed, and was accepted in most societies until the advent of Christianity. Since homosexuality has been around longer than Christianity, the problem lies with the religion and not with the gay man/woman.

Census 2000  Family Household Composition

Not married, no children		32%
Married, no children		30%
Married, with children		26%
Not married, with children	12%

The purpose of marriage obviously isn't just to start a family. Not in this day and age, anyway, where sex is more for recreation and less for procreation.


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## Hodge

> One thing does bother me though. Gay people claim that their attraction to the same sex is a biological thing, attributing it to their DNA. If this is the case, wouldn't it be the same for the pedophile or bestiophile or some other person who suffers from a sexual attraction to anything but the norm? If a man cannot help the fact that he looks at another man and finds himself attracted sexually, why is it not the same for a man who looks at a youngster and feels the same thing? It seems a bit hypocritical to me.



Hypocritical? No. Pedophilia may very well be biological, although pedophiles are almost always molested or sexually abused as children, so more likely it's social. Homosexuals obviously do not all come from homosexual households.

Here's how homosexuality works:

Homosexuality is a scale. All of us fall on this sexual scale somewhere, but the majority of us fall on the "likes opposite sex" spectrum. Not all the way, mind you, because we are all attracted to the same sex somewhat. This is how you are able to look at a member of the same sex and say, "boy, he/she sure is attractive!" I can look at Brad Pitt and I know he's a very sexy man just the same as the ladies on this board can look at Cameron Diaz and know that she's a very attractive woman.

Now, the sexual orientation of a person is determined very early on in pregancy when either a strong dose of testosterone and a low dose of estrogen or a low dose of testosterone and high dose of estrogen get into a fetus' system. It's a very delicate process, because the wrong amounts can create a person who is physically female but mentally male, or a person who is physically male and mentally male, but possesses a stronger attraction to men than women. 


There are rare cases where someone will "turn" gay, although that's not what this is at all. Sometimes, a child will be molested or abused by a close family member or friend of the opposite sex. They'll grow up harboring a deep fear and/or resentment towards the opposite sex because of this, and this fear or hatred becomes so strong that it overrided the sexual attraction they feel. This happens primarily in women, although I have found a couple cases where it's happened in men. 

So Kane, I'm sorry buddy, but you are, to some extent, gay. Just as I am and everyone else on this board (except the asexuals, but that's an entirely different condition).


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## Rico

I'd like to come back here and thrown in some more useless info. Hodge, I completely agree with you. When I was in college, I read a study by...Alfred Kinsey, I believe. It said something to the effect that about 37% of men have at least one homosexual experience to orgasm in their adult lives, another 13% have a homosexual fantasy to orgasm, and about a fifth have had more homosexual experiences than heterosexual ones. There were women's numbers, too, but those I don't recall...


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## Hodge

I'm just really tired of people pulling all sorts of BS reasons out of their asses to bash homosexuality (no offense Kane, I'm sure you're not just making things up—I'm referring to political and religious leaders)... Did you know that it's perfectly legal here in the United States to discriminate against someone based on their sexual orientation? Every other thing is protected—race, gender, religion—but not homosexuality. Pure bullshit.


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## Rico

Wow, I didn't know that. Then again, I suppose I'm still at least half in the closet. No one I work with knows...but I know that if they did, heh, I could kiss my career goodbye.


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## Kane

hehe, I'm not gay.  Am I capable of being aroused by a man?  Sure.  I'm a guy, I can be aroused by a pair of jeans or some silky sheets.  I find Brad Pitt to be very attractive, but I don't want to have sex with him.  It's not difficult to understand why men can be attracted to other men.  A man in good physical shape is an attractive thing, muscular, angled.  But it doesn't turn me on.  For me it's women.  I love their curves, everything about them.  Each little line on a fit woman drives me crazy.



... I don't think it's legal or acceptable to discriminate based on sexuality.  In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the only people in the USA who are open territory for legal discrimination are white males.  You can't tell a black man he can't work for you because of the color of his skin, but you can tell a white man that.  In fact, the government goes out of it's way to see that minorities get jobs and loans and grants that white men don't have available.  It's perfectly acceptable to bash christian men, but bash gay men and you are looked at with disgust.  I don't really care, though I used to a great deal.  These days I see the world as a big pile of shit just waiting to be flushed down the toilet.  It's probably how I am able to sleep at night with my, "stay out of my way and I'll do the same for you" attitude.  I don't even know why I post in these forums anymore.  The outcome is never worth the headache.  I think I'll try and just stick to my writing and schoolwork and remind myself not to call bullshit when I see it anymore.  I'm going to have a stroke before I'm 30 otherwise.


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## horrorcrafter

Hodge you were profound.  All forms of sexuality can be reckoned along a scale.  Thus, a single person could be:
  attracted to women- 87%
  attracted to men- 11%
  attracted to writing - 2%

Being totally asexual myself, I can still say that Tom Cruise is better looking than Leonid Breznev.  Of course, you have to realize that those who proclaim to be totally heterosexual, such as our christian conservative country, are using something called "repression" to keep down those naughty feelings.  Don't let them get to you, um, whoever wrote this story. Horrorcrafter


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## Hodge

Kane, whether you like it or not your brain is wired to be sexually attracted to men. To a much lesser extent, yes, and sexual arousal is completely different from sexual attraction, but you are a little homosexual. If society's inhibitions didn't apply to you or I, we'd both occasionally indulge in hot dogs (like the ancient Greeks and Romans did—although not so much with teenage boys, I think) instead of tacos.


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## Rico

well, Kane, hehe...



			
				Kane said:
			
		

> A man in good physical shape is an attractive thing, muscular, angled



I think you got me in a nutshell...


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## Hodge

Yeah, repression of anything, really, leads to all manner of psychological disorders later in life. In fact, it can actually lead to physical problems as well (repression of emotions can lead to heart attacks, ulcers, high blood pressure, etc.).


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## Rico

Haha, Hodge, say it loud and say it proud!!!


sorry...gay pride just infected me for a second...


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## valeca

Personally, I thought the piece was exceedingly well written.

Arrogance wrapped in ignorance, swimming in blind faith, clinging to the social trends of a ruling class.


Vive le Canada!


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## Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor

Christianity is often synonymous with ignorance.  After all, you rarely see Atheists defending such things as banning gay marriages and abortions, keeping women from being priests, preventing assisted suicide, and stopping stem cell research.

The moral progression of society of often hampered by the ignorance of religion.  You can't blame people for getting annoyed once in awhile.  Some people disagree with Christianity.

Vegetarians disagree with eating meat.  It's unreasonable to ask them to respect your choices if you respect theirs.  After all, their belief is that your belief is wrong.  As a vegetarian and rabid atheist, I see strong similiarities between the two issues of morality.

However, you don't hear me refusing to listen.  Sure, I don't respect certain views, but I'm usually willing to listen to someone else explain their opinions.  What's wrong with that?


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## PaPa

Smurf Mamita said:
			
		

> Hanged is hung, not hanged.



When talking about death by hanging it is definitely hanged, not hung.

Moving on, most of the points in Kane's posts have already been ably refuted by others, but I would point out a few things...

- Procreation is not the only purpose of marriage.  Marriage is a statement of your love for another person and your intent to remain with them for the rest of your life, and I see no reason why homosexuals should not be allowed to make this statement if they wish.

- The "nature" argument is nonsense. Homosexuality is one of the most natural things that humans do in the modern world, and don't give me that guff about using your body parts properly e.g. you're not supposed to inhale the smoke of burning plants into your lungs either, but many still do.

- Stop saying that you don't have anything against homosexuals and then go on about how wrong it is.


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## horrorcrafter

today I hang.

yesterday I hung.

Horrorcrafter


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## bobothegoat

I hate the term, "open-minded."  It's a cliche.  _Everyone_ says they're open-minded.  If I hear one more person say, "I'm open-minded," I think I'll puke.  Or scream.  Or perhaps both.

Anyway, I thought the the essay was well-written.  No complaints from me.  Not surprisingly, this is another respectable essay supporting gay-rights.  I cannot think of any like this against gay-rights.

From my standpoint, there are only two arguments agianst gay-rights.  The first has been covered:  a "naturalness" of homosexuality.  PaPa's example of smoking is an example.  What about the mere fact that I'm typing on this keyboard?  Surely my fingers were not created to type on a keyboard.  I must be sacreligious...

The second argument I hear made tends to be along the lines of maintaining the sanctity of marriage and God's word, etc. etc.

Right...  Does anyone realize that that very same arguement was used to deny interracial marriages?  I'll grant that the line has to be drawn somewhere, or we might get people marrying their cats or practicing polygomy.  However, gay marriage is not the spot for such a line.  Too large of a chunk of our population.

I'm not sure what the statistic is on gays, but someone said something along the lines of 10%.  Odd...  If that's true, we've got about the same percent of Blacks in our population (and these populations aren't mutually exclusive, by the way).  If Black rights are important (and they are), then Gay-rights should be too.

Anyway, that's my take on it...


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## Rico

heh, bobo, I posted it earlier. 



			
				Rico said:
			
		

> I'd like to come back here and thrown in some more useless info. Hodge, I completely agree with you. When I was in college, I read a study by...Alfred Kinsey, I believe. It said something to the effect that about 37% of men have at least one homosexual experience to orgasm in their adult lives, another 13% have a homosexual fantasy to orgasm, and about a fifth have had more homosexual experiences than heterosexual ones. There were women's numbers, too, but those I don't recall...


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## Hodge

Two arguments, one is completely invalid and the other is completely subjective. Game over.


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## Kane

PaPa said:
			
		

> Smurf Mamita said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hanged is hung, not hanged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When talking about death by hanging it is definitely hanged, not hung.
> 
> Moving on, most of the points in Kane's posts have already been ably refuted by others, but I would point out a few things...
> 
> - Procreation is not the only purpose of marriage.  Marriage is a statement of your love for another person and your intent to remain with them for the rest of your life, and I see no reason why homosexuals should not be allowed to make this statement if they wish.
> 
> - The "nature" argument is nonsense. Homosexuality is one of the most natural things that humans do in the modern world, and don't give me that guff about using your body parts properly e.g. you're not supposed to inhale the smoke of burning plants into your lungs either, but many still do.
> 
> - Stop saying that you don't have anything against homosexuals and then go on about how wrong it is.
Click to expand...



I never said procreation was the only purpose of marriage.  Murder, strong-arming, disease, poison, rape... these are all things found in the natural animal world.  Should we indulge in those as well?  or just what YOU consider to be ok?  I don't believe homosexuality is natural, but a condition of the mind.  Does this mean I have to bash gay people?  No, I don't need to hate people just because I disagree with what they do or say.  This is the only 'gay' thread I've ever participated in, and since the subject is homosexuality, I am stating my opinion on the matter.  As for people refuting most of what I've said: as in other posts, they have stated opinion contradictory to my own or studies and evidence to suggest another possible result, not refuted me.  And by the way, there is no point to state a thesis that can't be argued against.

You keep latching on to my testes and acting as though you've won some great victory, but you haven't said anything mind blowing, original or in many cases even relevant.  Most of your posts are specifically to me, like you are in some personal battle with me, but dude, get off it.  It's old and retarded.  Go write a story or something... but don't pat yourself on the back for doing jack shit.  I hate to become abrasive but you are acting like a little twerp.

There are many peopel on this board, though for the most part you all agree on many issues.  I happen to disagree with many and end up taking a lot of flack for it.  But you keep mistaking your opinion for fact and it's becoming quite annoying.  If all of the things you have claimed as fact were actually fact, this world would be a different place than it already is.  You wouldnt have to argue with me on a internet forum because the stuff would be common knowledge.


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## Hodge

> I don't believe homosexuality is natural, but a condition of the mind.



That is completely wrong, though, as a homosexual's brain is physically different from a straight person's. Were it a condition of the mind (and only the mind), there would have to be something in common with all homosexuals (like they were raised in gay households), and this is not the case. Homosexuality is found in the same percentages within all societies.

Also note that homosexuality does occur in the wild. 

http://www.bidstrup.com/sodomy.htm



> You wouldnt have to argue with me on a internet forum because the stuff would be common knowledge.



That's not entirely true. Just off the top of my head because I was thinking about this earlier, it's "common knowledge" that urine is unsanitary. But it's really not, because urine is mostly ammonia, which kills bacteria and viruses. It's "common knowledge" that there are millions of little bacteria living on our hands. It's also a common assumption that we need to kill these bacteria, but the opposite is true because we live in a state of symbiosis with them (they eat nutrients off of our skin which keeps harmful bacteria from proliferating; they also keep our immune systems exercised).


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## valeca

See, this is what I meant in the other post.  Great arguement, facts to back it up..no condescention..bravo!  (I still think you were as ass in the other one )


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## Kane

You're playing semantics with me Hodge, but whatever.  I have no doubt that homosexuality occurs in the wild.  So does masturbation.  That is why I pointed out that many other things occur in the wild, natural world.  nevertheless, these things are not tolerated in society.  So I don't really see how that point is really relevant to the conversation.  


The difference between homosexuality and the examples you brought up is that the issue of homosexuality is a big one.  If it could be proven as fact, that homosexuality is a DNA thing then you can bet it would be all over the news and talk show ring.  There would be no grounds for debate on the whole gay marriage issue.  It wouldn't even be in political contention if it was proven that it was a DNA thing.


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## Hodge

> It wouldn't even be in political contention if it was proven that it was a DNA thing.



That's because it's not genetic, it's physiological. I already described how it happens earlier in this thread (hormones). Although studies have shown that biological children of gay parents are more likely to be gay themselves, so the cause of the hormonal imbalances before birth probably are genetic.



> You're playing semantics with me Hodge, but whatever. I have no doubt that homosexuality occurs in the wild. So does masturbation.



And the point is that neither are "wrong" for any reason other than because a religious figure says so. Social scientists are now being led to believe that homosexuality is functional in a society, and we already know that masturbation is (for men it keeps sperm fresh, new, and healthy, and for women it keeps her cervix in shape or something).


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## valeca

> So does masturbation. That is why I pointed out that many other things occur in the wild, natural world. nevertheless, these things are not tolerated in society.


Kane, you really need to check facts here.  Masturbation is not only tolerated by western societies, many places will teach it is best to know your self before you can express adequetly to your partner what works for you.  I highly doubt you've never indulged...and if you equate masturbation as wrong, just as you count homosexuality as wrong..wouldn't that make you hypocrytical?


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## Kane

I said masturbation occurs in the wild, and you tell me I need to check my facts...  I must applaud your ability, not only to put words in my mouth, but to 'refute' points I haven't even made.  As I have been single for a bit over 5 years now, I am quite familiar with masturbation.    Masturbation, however, serves no purpose but to feel good and perhaps relieve some stress.  Although many people masturbate, many others don't masturbate, claiming they don't really receive pleasure from it, while others may not for moral or religious reasons.  Some people get off reading dirty magazines, for others magazines offer nothing.  Some people like to be defecated on while others enjoy pain.  Some people love animals, some love children and a smaller number prefer the cold embrace of the dead.  These are all deviancies, because they DEVIATE from the actual purpose of sex, which is procreation.  It feels good because if it didn't, how would men and women stand each other's company long enough to copulate?  So why is it that out of all of these deviancies and fetishes, homosexuality is the only one that is deserving of a special accord?  Why should gay people recieve special treatment when others are met with disdain, imprisonment or at the best, a guilty secrecy?

Now, I've already stated my opinion.  I think homosexuality is wrong.  But I don't hate homosexuals, nor would I tell them how to live their lives.  I am only talking about it now because it's the topic of discussion.  But out in the real world?  I wouldn't think of making someone feel uncomfortable about their sexual practices, it's not who I am.  It's funny, because my position hasn't changed from the get go.  It's not enough for you that I allow for people to live their lives as they see fit, you want me to come out in full support for what they do.  Why?  For all your talk of tolerance and how Christians or conseratives lack it, I am overwhelmed by the regularity in which I encounter those of liberal mindsets who fall into the same boat.  That's probably my biggest problem with many liberal agendas and with homosexuality.  It's not that homosexuals want the right to be homosexual, many of them want to flaunt it in people's faces to get a reaction, simply so they can jump down a person's throat for being conservative or Christian or for wanting the right to their own beliefs.  

If it doesn't apply to you then fine, pay no attention.  But there are more than a couple people on this forum who this does apply to.  I have never come across with any opinion but that people should have the choice to live their lives as they please.  Yet you want to argue with me, as if it's not good enough that I say live and let live.  Well here's a news flash.  I am not going to bow down to your godless liberalism or anyone elses.  You go on and try to pick apart everything I say to find fault, but if there were more people like me on this planet, there would be a lot less conflict and a lot more people respecting other's freedoms.  Not only do I respect people's freedom of choice, I spent 3 years of my life ready to defend those freedoms with my life or death, and would be doing the same if I hadn't been permanantly disabled while in the service.


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## Hodge

> So why is it that out of all of these deviancies and fetishes, homosexuality is the only one that is deserving of a special accord?




1) Homosexuality is the only one of the sexual deviancies you listed that occurs in the wild as well as in us. The only one that is not a social construct.

2) Homosexuality is between two consenting adults; no one is being harmed.

3) Homosexuality is not a fetish.




> It's not that homosexuals want the right to be homosexual, many of them want to flaunt it in people's faces to get a reaction, simply so they can jump down a person's throat for being conservative or Christian or for wanting the right to their own beliefs.



There's a stereotype if I ever saw one...


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## Kane

I said many, not all.  And then when on to say if it didn't apply to you then ignore it.  See what I mean dude?  you try to pick apart every little thing I say for no reason other than to what, be a dick?  



homosexuality, like any other sexual practice is an attraction to a certain thing, in its case, members of the same sex.  As for the wild... I hate to break it to you, but we are the wild.  If we are animals, then holing up in cities and calling ourselves civilized doesn't make us any less wild.  hell, you said it yourself when you claimed that people didn't have a choice in the heat of the sexual moment, because you were referring to animalistic base emotions.  The more you talk, the less you sound like you know what yer talking about.  But go on with it, I'm done with this convo.


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## Hodge

> I said many, not all. And then when on to say if it didn't apply to you then ignore it. See what I mean dude? you try to pick apart every little thing I say for no reason other than to what, be a dick?



Many blacks steal cars. Many Asians have small wee–wees. Many women can't think for themselves. Do you see how what you said might be taken in the wrong way?



> As for the wild... I hate to break it to you, but we are the wild.



Sorta kinda not really. We are animals, but we've devloped social structures that are far more advanced than any other animal's. Yes, we have primal instincts. Freud calls it our "Id." We also have another component, which is called the superego. The superego contains all of our social conditioning, and our superego controls us more than anything. So no, we are not wild. Pull a knife on someone and their "fight or flight" instinct will reveal itself, but for the most part we are not wild like animals (although our instincts do still control much of what we do—just in more subtle ways).


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## PaPa

> I never said procreation was the only purpose of marriage.  Murder, strong-arming, disease, poison, rape... these are all things found in the natural animal world.  Should we indulge in those as well?  or just what YOU consider to be ok?  I don't believe homosexuality is natural, but a condition of the mind.



Stop twisting what I say.  I didn't claim that everything which is natural should be accepted, I said that saying that something is unnatural is no reason not to accept it.  There is a clear difference.



> You keep latching on to my testes and acting as though you've won some great victory, but you haven't said anything mind blowing, original or in many cases even relevant.  Most of your posts are specifically to me, like you are in some personal battle with me, but dude, get off it.  It's old and retarded.  Go write a story or something... but don't pat yourself on the back for doing jack shit.  I hate to become abrasive but you are acting like a little twerp.



I don't make this like some kind of personal battle, you do.  I'm just wandering around, posting in subjects on which I hold an opinion, and then you start taking everthing ridiculously seriously, start claiming that I'm insulting you or something and then accuse me of arrogance/condescension/whatever.  The fact that many of my posts in debates end up being addressed specifically to you is because you're often the only representative of the other side of the argument.  I'm sorry for not meeting your exacting standards but I'm just here to post some random shit and have fun - I don't surf the internet looking for random people to piss off.  Get the fuck off my back.


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## Pawn

An excellent article. Well written and hard-hitting. 

I don't find your opinions valid, Kane, but naturally I respect your right to them. PaPa is worth listening to.


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## discipleofWORD

*ooo...*

I usually don't read a long essay in one sitting, but just the topic you proposed, i thought to myself it is worth to read. After a couple of paragraphs, I was hooked! The style somehow reminds me of the Eric's style (author of *Fast Food Nation*).

Man, it hurts me to read that homosexual people were killed because of their sexual orientation. Those people label them as evil, but aren't they really the evil ones--being judgemental with their hatred and even "gay bashing?"

Like many readers have wrote, this was an eye-opener.

:::sigh:::

It is a confusing, blind world we live in....


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