# Has anyone ever fired a hand gun?



## Robdemanc (Aug 11, 2013)

I have never used a gun.  Never even picked one up.

My character has to learn how to use a gun, someone teaches him and gives him a three day intensive course in using a semi automatic pistol.

I wonder if anyone could tell me what it feels like to fire a gun?  Do you feel you have a lot of power?  Does it feel serious or kind of like a game?  Does it hurt your hands?  Does it smell?  Does it push your body or arms back?

How long does it take someone to be reasonably confident about using the gun?


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## Pluralized (Aug 11, 2013)

FleshEater is probably our resident expert on firearms, but I'll throw my little bit of experience in, for what it's worth:

Using a handgun feels nothing like a "game." When you squeeze the trigger, the volume of the round going off instantly creates a ringing in your ears, even smaller caliber. The gun bucks in your hand, and can jar your wrist and elbow, or if you're stiffened against it, higher caliber pistols will recoil and move your whole upper body. It's a serious mechanism.

It only hurts your hands if you're not ready for it, otherwise most guns are contoured fairly well to the human hand. Smell is a subjective thing, but I always notice it. Even hours later when I'm doing something else, it's an acrid, metallic smell that stays on your hands. 

It would take someone forty rounds or so, and you become pretty confident. Of course, it varies depending upon the character. I haven't fired one since my dad took me out fifteen years ago, but remember it quite clearly.

Three days of training seems like extreme overkill, depending upon how many hours each day. Hope this helps.


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## Kevin (Aug 11, 2013)

Imagine holding a large firecracker in something metal. BAM! Every time it goes off you blink. Yes, it smells, and it's too loud. It jumps and it startles. No, it's not hard to hang on to, but in three days, you're still not used to it.


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## FleshEater (Aug 11, 2013)

Where to begin?

I've fired .22, .38, .40, .44, .357, .45, .9mm, and an AR15 pistol. Growing up around guns it's hard to say how long it takes to feel confident. I agree with Pluralized that it depends a lot on character. 

There is nothing that makes firing a handgun like a game. When you squeeze that trigger there is no calling that bullet back. Even more so, a lot of handguns now do not have traditional safety mechanisms. So, no gun play! 

A semi-auto pistol has to be one of the hardest firearms to get used to. You have to learn how to work the action. There is no such thing as gentle with a firearm. Gentle chambering leads to jams, which if not handled properly turn fatal. Also, if your wrists are not strong enough, you'll get about two rounds down range before the handgun jams. Semi-auto pistols require a stiff grip in order to chamber the next round. I took my wife and her sister out to shoot. Neither had ever fired a handgun before. Needless to say, I spent the whole afternoon clearing jams. 

When I'm shooting a handgun it's for a purpose, and that's efficient training. I can slap a magazine in, chamber a round, and empty it into the target in about 30 seconds. It jerks in your hand, but learning where it jerks to is key. 

Every firearm is different when fired depending on grip. I personaly love my Steyr M9, even though it ejects casing straight up and onto my head, the accuracy and dependability can't be matched. However, this is not a beginners firearm. The only safety on it is on the trigger. Also, the trigger must be dry fired to tear down. 

Smell...this also depends on the firearm. Most high quality handguns will not leave you with much of a scent.


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## Sam (Aug 11, 2013)

How proficient do you envision your character becoming in three days? Consider that it takes _years _of training for a soldier to become proficient at marksmanship. It takes hundreds of thousands of rounds for a Spec Ops soldier to become ultra-proficient; to wit, being able to put two rounds in the same place on the chest, and dot the forehead to put down a target for good, otherwise known as a Mozambique drill. 

Your character will likely miss a human-sized target after three days . . . repeatedly. Or, s/he will shoot them in a non-lethal part of the body and will then die when they retaliate. 

Now, three _months _. . . that's a bit more like it.


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## Bloggsworth (Aug 11, 2013)

The only pistol I ever handled was a WW1 Luger and I remember that I could barely pull back the cocking mechanism - Mind you, it was in about 1950 and I was only about 6 at the time! Unsurprisingly, he wouldn't let me fire it. My great uncle brought it back from The Great War, highly illegal. I think he handed it in during one of "_War souvenir_" amnesties.


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## FleshEater (Aug 11, 2013)

This is a close up to show you a modern safety mechanism. The safety is that very small piece of plastic offset from the trigger. Mind you, a 1911 will also have a palm safety integrated into the back of the handle, this does not. Press your finger against the trigger and it's ready to fire. This is my go to carry piece if clothing allows its concealment.


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## FleshEater (Aug 11, 2013)

Sam said:


> How proficient do you envision your character becoming in three days? Consider that it takes _years _of training for a soldier to become proficient at marksmanship. It takes hundreds of thousands of rounds for a Spec Ops soldier to become ultra-proficient; to wit, being able to put two rounds in the same place on the chest, and dot the forehead to put down a target for good, otherwise known as a Mozambique drill.
> 
> Your character will likely miss a human-sized target after three days . . . repeatedly. Or, s/he will shoot them in a non-lethal part of the body and will then die when they retaliate.
> 
> Now, three _months _. . . that's a bit more like it.




Three, eight hour days, and about 1,500 rounds of ammo should be more than enough to get anyone hitting the chest of an assailant consistently. Firing under pressure is another thing, and even a lot of police officers mess this up by killing someone prematurely or missing and killing bystanders. Sinking a round in the exact same hole twice in a row isn't possible from a semi-auto handgun. Close, sure, but never exact. These aren't the most accurate forms of handguns, and are in fact the least accurate of any firearm.


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## Robdemanc (Aug 11, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> A semi-auto pistol has to be one of the hardest firearms to get used to. You have to learn how to work the action. There is no such thing as gentle with a firearm. Gentle chambering leads to jams, which if not handled properly turn fatal. Also, *if your wrists are not strong enough, you'll get about two rounds down range before the handgun jams*. Semi-auto pistols require a stiff grip in order to chamber the next round. I took my wife and her sister out to shoot. Neither had ever fired a handgun before. Needless to say, I spent the whole afternoon clearing jams.



Thanks flesheater.   What do you mean here?  Wrists?  Do you mean holding the gun when it fires or when you chamber the first round?


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## FleshEater (Aug 11, 2013)

When you fire. A semi-auto handgun needs to be stabilized with a strong grip. The recoil is what chambers the round that follows each shot. Weak wrists make a weak recoil that doesn't allow the slide to fully retract and chamber the next round.


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## Robdemanc (Aug 11, 2013)

Ok Thanks everyone for the responses.  I am not planning on making my character an expert marksman.  The motivation of the person training him is to give him confidence with a gun and make him accustomed to using one.


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## Lewdog (Aug 11, 2013)

In all my training with the prison, the SRT team, and in the military, there are a few simple rules to always remember.  You never point a gun at someone unless you know you are indeed prepared to use it.  There are no such things as warning shots.  When you fire, double tap, but this would be difficult back in the early 1900's when you have to cock it first.  The double tap is more important in situations where you don't know if someone is wearing body armor and you tap one to the chest and one to the head.  Last and most importantly, always make sure your firearm is cleaned regularly, and if it is intended to be used, make sure it is loaded before you point it at somebody.


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## gmehl (Aug 11, 2013)

I've fired a variety of weapons, mostly in connection with military service, and it's a sobering and serious business; I'd agree with others that it takes not only a lot of rounds fired to get used to shooting, but a certain mentality to aim at a person instead of a target.  I've also been shot at, and that's even more sobering and disquieting.  Fifty caliber machine gun bullets, at 1200 rounds a minute, whizzing past or chewing up the earth around you, even in a training screwup, is unbelievably scary.


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## Bloggsworth (Aug 11, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> Three, eight hour days, and about 1,500 rounds of ammo should be more than enough to get anyone hitting the chest of an assailant consistently. Firing under pressure is another thing, and even a lot of police officers mess this up by killing someone prematurely or missing and killing bystanders. Sinking a round in the exact same hole twice in a row isn't possible from a semi-auto handgun. Close, sure, but never exact. These aren't the most accurate forms of handguns, and are in fact the least accurate of any firearm.



I have seen videos of American police in action, if they weren't tragic they would be hilarious. I saw one "Police, Camera, Action" piece where about a dozen police fired round after round, from a range of about 20 feet, at a couple of "Perps" without hitting either of them once; I was not impressed.


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## Lewdog (Aug 11, 2013)

Bloggsworth said:


> I have seen videos of American police in action, if they weren't tragic they would be hilarious. I saw one "Police, Camera, Action" piece where about a dozen police fired round after round, from a range of about 20 feet, at a couple of "Perps" without hitting either of them once; I was not impressed.



Are you talking about the piece of the officers in California that got into a fire fight with guys wearing body armor?  That was kind of misleading.  If you want to see some bad shooting, do a youtube search on Kehoe brothers shootout.  Now that is point blank bad shooting.  Then again you can train eight hours a day, but it will never prepare you for that moment when your target is shooting back at you.


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## MJ Preston (Aug 11, 2013)

Handgun, rifle, semi auto automatic, rocket laucher, two types of howitzers, grenades, motar, explosives C4. 
12 years as a soldier, what would you like to know?


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## philistine (Aug 11, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> You have to learn how to work the action. There is no such thing as gentle with a firearm. Gentle chambering leads to jams, which if not handled properly turn fatal. Also, if your wrists are not strong enough, you'll get about two rounds down range before the handgun jams.



I'd never really considered this before now, though it makes a lot of sense. Being an Englishman, I've had little experience with handling and firing guns. My experience extends to fondling a WW1 pistol (no idea what model it was) that my grandfather owned, and despite being around five years old at the time, the thing seemed titanic in size. That, and a few sessions as a teenager at a local rifle range.

Not to hijack the thread here, though are there any British folk here who shoot for a hobby? I'd really like to get into it.


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## Shadoe (Aug 11, 2013)

Sam said:


> How proficient do you envision your character becoming in three days? Consider that it takes _years _of training for a soldier to become proficient at marksmanship. It takes hundreds of thousands of rounds for a Spec Ops soldier to become ultra-proficient; to wit, being able to put two rounds in the same place on the chest, and dot the forehead to put down a target for good, otherwise known as a Mozambique drill.
> 
> Your character will likely miss a human-sized target after three days . . . repeatedly. Or, s/he will shoot them in a non-lethal part of the body and will then die when they retaliate.


It should be noted that this is not always the case. I shot expert my first time out and got clusters every time after that. I don't consider myself particularly talented.

How well someone fires a gun is going to depend on a lot of factors - the weapon itself, the training received, how well an "eye" the person has, their attitude toward weapons (fear, hate, love), the position they fire from (I did great standing or prone, not so much kneeling), etc. There's also a difference between firing on the range and firing in the field.


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## DPVP (Aug 11, 2013)

Bloggsworth said:


> The only pistol I ever handled was a WW1 Luger and I remember that I could barely pull back the cocking mechanism - Mind you, it was in about 1950 and I was only about 6 at the time! Unsurprisingly, he wouldn't let me fire it. My great uncle brought it back from The Great War, highly illegal. I think he handed it in during one of "_War souvenir_" amnesties.


i am sorry to hear that, it sucks 

training is good, the thing to remember is that it goes to hell when things go south. when things wrong your body is dumped full of adrenalin and other drugs.  you lose mass moter skills, your vision narrows your hands are mittens, and you are not aware of your body. you might even not be aware you draw your sidearm as the blood sings in your ears.

afterwords you are numb and cold, you don't feel and you still don't have mass moter skills. then the drugs your body pumped you on start to wear out. you think about how quickly things turned bad and how easily things could have gone worse for you. you feel sick and your skin tingles as the drugs leave your system. 

but that's just my experience.


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## Lewdog (Aug 11, 2013)

DPVP said:


> i am sorry to hear that, it sucks
> 
> training is good, the thing to remember is that it goes to hell when SHTF. when things wrong your body is dumped full of adrenalin and other drugs.  you lose mass moter skills, your vision narrows your hands are mittens, and you are not aware of your body. you might even not be aware you draw your sidearm as the blood sings in your ears.
> 
> ...



That's part of the reason why in boot camp they try to do things like crawling under barb wire with live fire going on overhead, to desensitize you as much as possible.  When I was on the prison SRT tactical team we used to do a lot of drills with sim-ammunition drills were we would actually get shot when doing room clearing and clearing areas like stairwells and vehicles.  No, you didn't fear dying, but it still helped to startle you when you were getting fired at.  Those little pieces of chalk that were in the bullets stung like hell!  We also did a lot of training were we had to fire on the move and practice taking cover, as opposed to concealment  (learn the difference, it's important!).  Nothing, and I mean nothing will ever ready you for a situation of trying to shoot a gun under duress, but there are ways to improve your ability to handle it more than someone that just shoots at paper cutouts at the range.


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## Staff Deployment (Aug 11, 2013)

I can tell you how it feels to be a child learning how, but that's about it.

First, the weight is surprising. Feels like it's dragging your aim to the floor. You'll instinctively cup your hand under the butt of the gun for support. When you aim it downrange it'll be surprising how much your aim actually wobbles . . . when you breathe in. When you breathe out, there's almost immediate feedback — feels like it snaps perfectly into place and stays there.

When you fire, the sound will have more of a physical impact on you than the gun. You'll flinch, at the very least. The recoil will be difficult to control but it's unlikely you'll smack yourself in the face unless you've been holding it wrong.

You'll miss, inevitably. But you'll still feel pretty good. Powerful, in the worst way possible.


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## egpenny (Aug 12, 2013)

Last time I was on a range was a year ago.  My son, grandsons and assorted friends went to an indoor range in Everett, WA.  With us were two women who had never shot before.  By the end of a three hour session they were both shooting a centered, six to seven inch group at a silhouette target 25 yards down range.  They were using a 9mil, and a .45.  Three weeks seems too much time unless the character is training to become a long range sniper, but then that's rifles, not handguns.


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## Robdemanc (Aug 12, 2013)

The character will need cotton wool or something in their ears then?  The setting for the shooting practice is inside a cave, so the sound will echo a lot?


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## FleshEater (Aug 12, 2013)

Definitely ear plugs. Inside a cave would make your head feel like it was going to explode without them. 

Lewdog: Check out statistics concerning civilians carrying firearms and their accuracy in using them. Hundreds of thousands of civilians have successfully stopped crimes practicing on those paper targets...then go back and watch all the law enforcement mess ups. Dealing with a situation comes down to character. Practice is never the real thing.


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## Staff Deployment (Aug 12, 2013)

Hundreds of thousands seems like an exaggeration. Is there a reputable source somewhere that tracks that sort of thing statistically?


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## Lewdog (Aug 12, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> Definitely ear plugs. Inside a cave would make your head feel like it was going to explode without them.
> 
> Lewdog: Check out statistics concerning civilians carrying firearms and their accuracy in using them. Hundreds of thousands of civilians have successfully stopped crimes practicing on those paper targets...then go back and watch all the law enforcement mess ups. Dealing with a situation comes down to character. Practice is never the real thing.




You have to remember a few things.  I wasn't just talking law enforcement, I was talking military and a special tactical unit.  With that said, there are some key points here:

1.  There is just an inbred ability in some people to be able to perform under pressure that not everyone has.  The thing about that, is you don't know if you are one of those people or not until you are faced with a situation that requires it.  So yes, I have no problem believing and understanding that some citizens can do well under those circumstances despite only practicing with paper targets.  It's just part of their personality to be able to do so.  This is a major reason why I think on-the-job experience will always trump book smarts any day.  It also leads to the point I was making in another thread, that was taken as age discrimination but it wasn't.  The only people that are going to be able to describe certain situations, and how it feels at that very moment and express it in an entirely authentic way, are going to be those that have actually experienced it first hand.  

2.  When I brought up how the military tries to desensitize people, there are a few things I left out that people that have been to boot camp can attest to.  There is NOTHING that you do slow.  You don't get out of bed slow, you don't take a shower slow, you don't get in line to eat chow slow.  The only time you do anything slow is if you are on light duty because the doctor put you there.  There is a very specific reason for that.  It helps to make a soldier think quick and react instinctively.  Everything they do has a purpose as small and petty as it seems, with the ultimate goal of making each soldier able to perform to the best of their abilities during stressful situations.

3.  Lastly, those numbers are going to come across as a bit skewed as law enforcement officers are going to come across situations in which they will have to discharge their firearm exceedingly more often than the average citizen.

Fact is, we don't necessarily disagree all that much.  Some people have it in them, and some people don't.  There is a reason why certain professions like law enforcement have upwards of a 50% divorce rate.


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## Shadoe (Aug 12, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> There is NOTHING that you do slow.  You don't get out of bed slow, you don't take a shower slow, you don't get in line to eat chow slow.  The only time you do anything slow is if you are on light duty because the doctor put you there.  There is a very specific reason for that.  It helps to make a soldier think quick and react instinctively.  Everything they do has a purpose as small and petty as it seems, with the ultimate goal of making each soldier able to perform to the best of their abilities during stressful situations.


Thanks. I'd forgotten about that. I know what I'll be dreaming about tonight...


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## Lewdog (Aug 12, 2013)

Shadoe said:


> Thanks. I'd forgotten about that. I know what I'll be dreaming about tonight...



You're welcome.  Do you remember having count downs every day when you were getting dressed or getting undressed to shower?  There was always that ONE guy that was too slow that made you have to start over again.  Or when you get two minutes to shower, and two minutes to shave?  Great times!  How about the five minute Break downs?  Hello Dollies?


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## Kevin (Aug 12, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> You have to remember a few things.  I wasn't just talking law enforcement, I was talking military and a special tactical unit.  With that said, there are some key points here:
> 
> 1.  There is just an inbred ability in some people to be able to perform under pressure that not everyone has.  The thing about that, is you don't know if you are one of those people or not until you are face with a situation that requires it.  So yes, I have no problem believing and understanding that some citizens can do well under those circumstances despite only practicing with paper targets.


 It's true...I know someone like that. Not law enforcement; never been in the military. Got in a shootout and afterward was as steady as a rock. And no, I'm not gonna tell you who it is, Lewdog. He's my character _if_ and when I choose to borrow him for a story...


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## FleshEater (Aug 12, 2013)

Staff Deployment said:


> Hundreds of thousands seems like an exaggeration. Is there a reputable source somewhere that tracks that sort of thing statistically?



There's statistics, but saying "reputable" when it comes to this is like comparing or debating whether you trust CNN or Fox News. There are 50 million gun owners in America, and enough crime to satisfy all the wars we've ever seen...you can decide for yourself after looking at crime statistics, and then comparing them to places with more handgun owners that conceal carry. Compare Illinois, New York, and California to any other state. Personally, I don't go to states that I can't carry in. In America, a cop is always around until you need one.



Lewdog said:


> You have to remember a few things.  I wasn't just talking law enforcement, I was talking military and a special tactical unit.  With that said, there are some key points here:
> 
> 1.  There is just an inbred ability in some people to be able to perform under pressure that not everyone has.  The thing about that, is you don't know if you are one of those people or not until you are faced with a situation that requires it.  So yes, I have no problem believing and understanding that some citizens can do well under those circumstances despite only practicing with paper targets.  It's just part of their personality to be able to do so.  This is a major reason why I think on-the-job experience will always trump book smarts any day.  It also leads to the point I was making in another thread, that was taken as age discrimination but it wasn't.  The only people that are going to be able to describe certain situations, and how it feels at that very moment and express it in an entirely authentic way, are going to be those that have actually experienced it first hand.
> 
> ...



I agree. Though, even using military, civilians still out number all military and law enforcement, giving them some decent statistics.


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## Staff Deployment (Aug 13, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> There are 50 million gun owners in America, and enough crime to satisfy all the wars we've ever seen...you can decide for yourself after looking at crime statistics, and then comparing them to places with more handgun owners that conceal carry.



I have, and I remain more convinced that the accessibility of fire-arms contributes more to the high crime than to stopping it. But let us assume that is my own opinion, and 100% refrain from getting into a debate about gun control. Only fools would dare tread down that path of conversation!

On a note related to the original question, I learned how to fire a bolt-action rifle back when I was 15 and turns out I'm steadfastly average. I sure can hit that target to a reasonably moderate degree, with middling / standard accuracy. As for gunplay under pressure, I'd undoubtedly be terrible.


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## Lewdog (Aug 13, 2013)

Staff Deployment said:


> I have, and I remain more convinced that the accessibility of fire-arms contributes more to the high crime than to stopping it. But let us assume that is my own opinion, and 100% refrain from getting into a debate about gun control. Only fools would dare tread down that path of conversation!




Did you know that it is illegal to own a gun in Chicago, yet they are near the top of the list for the worst murder rates in the country this year.


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## Pluralized (Aug 13, 2013)

You know what they say: "Guns don't kill people, FleshEater's characters with guns kill people."


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## Myers (Aug 13, 2013)

Something about that photo Flesheater posted makes me wanna see him  shoot that vase off the counter. Maybe it's the color. I'm not really partial  to earth tones.


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## Kevin (Aug 13, 2013)

Guns cause hearing damage... and then there's those hot thingies flying out and going down the collar of the person next to you...


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## Lewdog (Aug 13, 2013)

The worst is a beginner firing a slide action hand gun and they get a chunk of their hand caught in the slide...OUCH!


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## Robdemanc (Aug 13, 2013)

Does a semi automatic pistol have a safety catch?  Or switch?


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## Lewdog (Aug 13, 2013)

Robdemanc said:


> Does a semi automatic pistol have a safety catch?  Or switch?



Yes.  If you look at Flesheater's picture, his is on the trigger.  A lot of guns simply have a switch right above the trigger, where if the safety is off, you can see a red dot.


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## FleshEater (Aug 13, 2013)

Robdemanc said:


> Does a semi automatic pistol have a safety catch?  Or switch?



These are the safetys I've seen:

On trigger.
On back of slide, like a switch that flips down that is red (as Lewdog said) when ready to fire.
A combination of the above.
A palm safety in correlation with a trigger safety (1911 models). 

That's about it. 

Also, most sights are three square block-like sights with dots. My Steyr has combat sights, which is a bright white triangle. Battle sights aren't very common.

Staff, I've given up on the gun control debate with anyone outside the U.S. (no offense), it's pointless.


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## DPVP (Aug 13, 2013)

Robdemanc said:


> Does a semi automatic pistol have a safety catch?  Or switch?



Some just have internal safeties so the trigger needs to be pulled for their to be discharge instead of or along with external ones


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## FleshEater (Aug 13, 2013)

DPVP said:


> Some just have internal safeties so the trigger needs to be pulled for their to be discharge instead of or along with external ones



Can you site a handgun with this?


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## Lewdog (Aug 13, 2013)

Yeah how would that be a safety if pulling the trigger takes off the safety?  That seems...well useless.


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## FleshEater (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm wondering if he isn't referring to the internal safteys activated with a key that disables the firing pin. My Steyr is set up like that. My wife can hardly rack the slide, I don't see any kids under the age of seven being able to work the action either.


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## Robdemanc (Aug 14, 2013)

Has anyone every taken a semi automatic apart and cleaned it?  I might have the character being shown how to do this.


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## Lewdog (Aug 14, 2013)

Robdemanc said:


> Has anyone every taken a semi automatic apart and cleaned it?  I might have the character being shown how to do this.




Ok at first I was kind of confused because at some point I thought your character was set in the old times.

But as far as cleaning a semi-automatic gun like a Glock...some are VERY simple but there is just one piece that is a pain in the rear end, that is a spring in the slide.

I've seen someone take apart, and put back together a Glock in less than two minutes.


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## DPVP (Aug 14, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> Can you site a handgun with this?


Ruger lcp, M&P depending on version, beretta 950 b before a certain year( the orrigional James Bond gun. I don't know if it had any internal ones but that's not the type of thing to bother me) and at least one version of the p99 ( the new James Bond gun). Those are the ones I have experience right of the top of my head.


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## DPVP (Aug 14, 2013)

Robdemanc said:


> Has anyone every taken a semi automatic apart and cleaned it?  I might have the character being shown how to do this.


The exact process is going to vary by what type of handgun it is. The basic process will be to remove the barrel, and barrel-shroud   from the frame.


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## FleshEater (Aug 14, 2013)

Robdemanc said:


> Has anyone every taken a semi automatic apart and cleaned it?  I might have the character being shown how to do this.



Best thing to do is pick your handgun, then watch a You Tube video on it. 

The Steyr I posted a picture of is as follows:

Rack the slide to ensure the handgun is empty (I do this three times due to the next step).
Point the pistol in a safe direction and pull the trigger.
Press slide lock release button on the frame of the pistol and slide the slide lock down.
Pull slide off.
Remove spring.
Remove barrel.
Done.

The Steyr can be torn apart and put back together in less than a minute due to the ease of the spring (designed by ex Glock engineer).

Here (the spring is the coiled piece of metal you see when he tears it down, and it's pressed in under the barrel): http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nRAmmbIrVX4


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## FleshEater (Aug 14, 2013)

DPVP said:


> Ruger lcp, M&P depending on version, beretta 950 b before a certain year( the orrigional James Bond gun. I don't know if it had any internal ones but that's not the type of thing to bother me) and at least one version of the p99 ( the new James Bond gun). Those are the ones I have experience right of the top of my head.



I tried to look up the Ruger LCP safety feature and only found that it does not have a safety. Are these internal safetys California only? I'm not trying to be ignorant. I'm sincerely interested.


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## bezidentita (Aug 14, 2013)

Firing a gun is a surprise. There's the tension, the apprehension, even if you've done it a lot. The second you squeeze the trigger there's a loud bang, and instantly, there's sharp ringing in your ears (unless you wear protection), the same ringing you experience after a rock concert. There's the smell of gunpowder, and it hangs around your hands for awhile. Depending on the gun there's also a flash---my .357 produces a flash larger than a basketball, and some rifles w/o flash suppressors can produce flashes the size of a beach ball. The kick is most intense. Any pistol firing .357 or stronger will tend to kick you backwards, in your palm, your arm, and especially your shoulder. Rifles and shotguns do this a lot.

Yeah, there's a feeling of power. It's also interesting, setting up water cans and seeing what different rounds can do. A full jacketed bullet tends to cut holes through things, while a .357 jacketed hollow point can mushroom and exploded a gallon jug filled with water. Fun. 

Guns are also scary, in a good way. If you are of a good mindset, you'll automatically understand that this is something to be treated well, with care. Safety first when it comes to weapons.


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## DPVP (Aug 19, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> I tried to look up the Ruger LCP safety feature and only found that it does not have a safety. Are these internal safetys California only? I'm not trying to be ignorant. I'm sincerely interested.


uhhh, looked it up too. thought it did. guess thats the issue with subscribing to the safety is between your ears theory. sorry about the delay, series 7 studying is consuming my life.


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## Robert_S (Aug 20, 2013)

I fired a .45 in the army reserve over two decades ago. It has quite a bit of kick to it. It certainly is nothing like the movies, but I think they use 1/2 charges for props.


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## Fred (Aug 24, 2013)

I'm glad Robdemanc asked this question, because it's reminded me to ask something similar. Is it appropriate to ask in this thread something similar about my character and her revolver, or better to start a new thread? I don't want to risk hijacking this one. Nor do I wish to irritate you guys with my ignorance!


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## Lewdog (Aug 24, 2013)

I think that this thread has run it's course on the OP, and that things have become more of a general discussion on different guns and the aspects of using them.  I say fire away (pun intended) with your question.


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## Robdemanc (Aug 24, 2013)

Yes ask the question.  I would be interested to know about revolvers too.


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## Fred (Aug 24, 2013)

Thanks - in that case...

And I really do appreciate the sharing of just a little of your expertise, guys - thanks! Please excuse an ignorant Limey whose sole contact with these things comes from whatever he's seen Bruce Willis and Clint Eastwood get up to.

Anyway… my MC gets her hands on a 1911 Webley revolver and has to use it. It's not utterly critical to the story that the gun is a Webley, but unless there's a good reason to lose it, I want to keep it because a) it fits the backstory (it was used by a British Indian Army NCO in WW1) b) I read that it carries a whopping great .476 cartridge and was nicknamed "manstopper", which suggests a kind of big, old hand cannon, which is an image I want to convey, and c) being from old Blighty myself, the image of a break-top pistol like one my granddad possibly lugged around in 1914-18 appeals to me. I know I'm only imagining this, but my idea of an antique weapon like this is that it might be even noisier, smellier and harder to hold than a relatively modern semi-automatic. Do you think that's right?

The first time she uses the Webley, she tries to shoot out a locked door. It's in a tunnel, underground, and from what you experts have described I guess the noise would be skull-crackingly awful. I've also read that the Webley has a relatively low muzzle velocity, and if that's right, would that make the recoil any less unmanageable? Would she end up on her ass? Would she risk dislocating a shoulder? Would her arms be trembling for minutes afterwards? Am I close when I imagine that a weapon like this would be even harder to handle than the kind of modern semi you guys have discussed here? Or would something make an old revolver perhaps easier to use (that mention of catching your hand in the action made me wince!)?

I've also taken some liberties, perhaps, by drawing from the weapon's nickname of "manstopper" - again, my reading has been limited to a few internet pages but I've been led (and led myself, too ) to understand that the big fat calibre of the weapon along with its (eventually) illegal hollow-point ammo would knock down just about anything or anyone at short range. It's not important to the story at all that a modern, slimmer pistol is more accurate, has a longer range, is easier to use. etc. - the important thing is that she gets her hands on a gun that makes a lot of noise, can blow a big hole in a door and a chunk from it's stone doorway, and can put a charging 800lb gorilla down on its backside. If you saw this in a story, would you think my 1911 Webley could do that? Or would it not matter any more than Jeff Goldblum obliterating an alien invasion with a Macbook?

I hadn't (and have not yet) established whether my MC has had any time on a practice range or not, and if she has, I don't know with who or with what weapon(s). I had assumed that she would be willing to pick up the gun, but reading the insights here I'm quickly rethinking some of the aspects of her character or backstory, since it seems clear that it's very unlikely a complete novice could or would pick up a big-ass old revolver and be able to use it effectively, perhaps even to blast a hole in a door.

When I finish this damn thing, I'm going to have to ask some of you fellas to critique the parts where numpties get hold of firearms!


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## Lewdog (Aug 24, 2013)

Ok, yes it would be extremely loud and she would more than likely have some serious ringing in her ears afterwards.  With that gun during that time period she would have a hard time pulling the trigger as it takes a lot more pressure on the trigger than it does now.Some similar guns to that time period require an 18-20 pound trigger pull weight which will be pretty tough for a woman who is not used to firing a gun to do.  This is compared to nowadays where the trigger pull weight is between 4-6 pounds!  I would almost venture to say, unless she cocked the gun first, which lowers the trigger weight, I doubt she would have the strength to fire it.  She most definitely wouldn't be able to with one finger, and might have to hold it with both hands and use both trigger fingers to do so.  You might use that in your story that she tried to fire it and couldn't so she cocked the hammer and then fired it.

The kick she is going to get wouldn't necessarily knock her down, but it might push her back some, and if she doesn't have a tight grip the gun might fly out of her hands.  If she is holding the gun tight and anywhere close to her face, her arms might give and allow the gun to hit her in the face.  If she is shooting at a lock with that gun she has to also worry about getting hit by ricochet.  

Yes that gun is a man stopper, but the accuracy on it sucks so unless she is between 5-10 feet, she will probably miss.  

I hope some of this info helps.


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## DPVP (Aug 24, 2013)

wait i might be having an after works drinks moment, but was not the Webley 1911 a contract made model 1911 chambered in .445 Webley? 

AKA isn't it a semi auto, and not a revolver? because in the year 1911 Webley would be making the Mark IV revolvers, witch was not made for smokeless powder. 

either way a 45 caliber bullet ( caliber being 1/100 of an inch) has a nice broad profile and some weight behind it. 1911 pistols don't have too match recoil in 45ACP and i imagian .455 Webley would not be much worse. as for those big revolvers their weight and size do a good job of compensating for their recoil.


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## Lewdog (Aug 24, 2013)

DPVP said:


> wait i might be having an after works drinks moment, but was not the Webley 1911 a contract made model 1911 chambered in .445 Webley?
> 
> AKA isn't it a semi auto, and not a revolver? because in the year 1911 Webley would be making the Mark IV revolvers, witch was not made for smokeless powder.
> 
> either way a 45 caliber bullet ( caliber being 1/100 of an inch) has a nice broad profile and some weight behind it. 1911 pistols don't have too match recoil in 45ACP and i imagian .455 Webley would not be much worse. as for those big revolvers their weight and size do a good job of compensating for their recoil.



Yep it isn't a revolver:







Now in the research I've read, there were a lot of 1911 colt revolvers used at the time.  With this gun not being a revolver, and with it's trigger weight, I'm not real sure how well the woman could even fire it.

Webley made revolvers so you might want to just research a year of production which I found to be in the late 1800's and use that instead.


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## Fred (Aug 24, 2013)

My fault - maybe I was thinking of a Colt 1911 since I was watching a TV show recently where a guy put it up in a challenge against the current US Army standard issue pistol. I got my models mixed up! In my story the revolver was obtained by the grandfather of one of my characters in 1911 in India, which I think makes it possibly a Webley Mark IV. Anyway, that's why I'm confusing everyone… sorry about that!

What I meant to ask about is definitely the Webley top-break (or is it break-top?) revolver. I aimed for that model because I think it was manufactured before and carried during the second Boer War, and before the 1899 Hague Convention banned hollow-point ammunition. I wanted the grandfather's heirs to have kept bunch of its banned ammunition because this is a horror/fantasy story and she has to take down something big and nasty, so uses big and nasty ammo… well, that's the plan!

Lewdog - Thanks for the tip regarding the heavy trigger pressure: now you mention it, it seems typical of old stuff - whether it's a bicycle or a light switch, let alone a trigger - it often seems stiff! They made you work for it in those days! I really like that suggestion and would like to incorporate that. I very much want to emphasise the noise, smell and force because neither she nor those around her will be very familiar with the situation. Maybe she can even whack herself on the head with the recoil… Would a smack like that be serious?

It sounds like I should give her at least a couple of hours on a practice range at some point in her past, so she might at least know to cock it. The close range requirement is just what she ends up with, so I have no problem with the thing being inaccurate beyond ten feet or so.


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## Lewdog (Aug 24, 2013)

Oh yeah, if it hit her in the head it would create a wound that would need stitches.


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## Fred (Aug 24, 2013)

Ouch! Actually that fits nicely with another character… Thanks again!


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## DPVP (Aug 24, 2013)

just an idea, and they are pretty rare.

a Webley Fosbery had a  lighter trigger pull and would have been produced 1901 to 1915. so if it was the second boar war it could have been picked up. it also used the .445 webley cartridge.


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## justanothernickname (Aug 24, 2013)

I shot a semi automatic paintball gun............the war was intense


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## With intensity (Aug 24, 2013)

Man oh man! Dudes love guns.  Just look at all these replies. I have fired a gun as well and the first time was when I was around 10. There was nothing empowering about it, at first.  You feel less in control of the gun and more like the gun controls you.  The we're was a feeling that it had life of it,s own and I was struggling to keep it from killing me.  That was a 357 with 38 amo in it as I recall or something like that.  The kick, the kick scares the shit out of you.  That gun was cumbersome for my small hands but the next one I fired was a small Uzi like one you'd see on Miami vice or something. That was like a toy. Very little recoil or maybe it was because you use to hands. I remember spraying it into the dirt I front of the target until my brother-inlaw stopped me and said "you know your shooting the dirt, right?". I did.  But the target didn't respond like the dirt with little dust explosions. Guns are dangerously addictive and give you false power.
check out this guys writings, Massad Ayood.  You'll find everything you need there.  One of the most Interesting things I read was a syndrome where people, police officers, got engaged In hand to hand fight Would sometimes discharge all their bullets at the floor or the wall.  The reason? Fear or being shot by their own gun, fear of killing someone and just plain fear.

[h=1][/h]


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## DondreKhan (Aug 25, 2013)

It has way more recoil than you think, even with "small" cartridges.  It's one of those things that's hard to describe well when you've never done it.


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## Fred (Aug 25, 2013)

I realised this morning that, because the weapon and the ammunition are so old and British, I can actually use the term "the smell of cordite" correctly...

As far as I can gather, it should be not unlike burnt nail polish, but I'm ready to be enlightened further!


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## Staff Deployment (Aug 25, 2013)

Fred said:


> I realised this morning that, because the weapon and the ammunition are so old and British, I can actually use the term "the smell of cordite" correctly...
> 
> As far as I can gather, it should be not unlike burnt nail polish, but I'm ready to be enlightened further!



The "smell of cordite" was a major plot point in one of my favourite books.


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## FleshEater (Aug 25, 2013)

What is the barrel length of the Webley she'll be using? That will determine the recoil. Can you even buy ammunition for that caliber?

My sister-in-law fired my Smith and Wesson .357 without any issues. I can post a pic of the monster if you'd like .


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## dantefrizzoli (Aug 26, 2013)

Firing a gun is one of the BEST ways to relieve stress (in a controlled and safe environment of course). I always recommend it to troubled youths that come in and want to deal with family issues in a positive way. Personal safety training is also a plus if you already own a firearm.


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## Fred (Aug 26, 2013)

Flesheater - according to my research, the barrel would be 4" long. There would be old ammunition for it, saved by the family I suppose, but I also recall reading somewhere that there is a place (in Texas, maybe? I can't find the reference atm) that supposedly is able to supply cartridges for this gun. I'm guessing that if that's so, the new ammo would not use cordite. If old cartridges can be stored for all these decades without becoming spoiled, I'll have them made available, just so I can call upon the smell of cordite without being flamed in crime writing forums 

Dante - there are clubs near where I live, and all this research has indeed made me curious to want to try my hand, but I think I'd have to go to somewhere like Bisley if i wanted to have a chance to fire something like an old Webley. Here in the UK I think I'd want to make initial enquiries with the local county constabulary before I do anything else though.


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## Galen (Aug 26, 2013)

My one experience shooting a gun. The gun was heavy. It was hard to aim and it was loud when it fired. I personally did not feel comfortable shooting it because I only had a brief introduction and felt I did not know how to handle the gun safely.


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## Alabastrine (Aug 26, 2013)

I am a lady (yes, lady) and have fired multiple guns. My first experience was a little intimidating t.b.h. I wasn't prepared for how loud it was. I shot a .45 and it made my ears ring for a bit. Recoil wasn't too horrible, but after emptying the magazine my hands had a funny tingle to them for about an hour. Maybe I was gripping too hard? I have been shooting about 10-15 times now and it gets a little easier the more you do it. 

Idea!: Do you have a friend that would let you use their gun for a day to go shooting with? It would be a good way to find out how to write about the way it feels in your hands, etc. You can go off of someones experience or you could try it out for yourself. Maybe you will find a new hobby!


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## movieman (Aug 26, 2013)

Fred said:


> Dante - there are clubs near where I live, and all this research has indeed made me curious to want to try my hand, but I think I'd have to go to somewhere like Bisley if i wanted to have a chance to fire something like an old Webley.



It's a long time since I was a British pistol shooter, but didn't the government ban most pistols a few years ago? You'd probably have to go further afield to shoot one legally.

Don't think I ever fired a Webley.


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## Fred (Aug 26, 2013)

I can't say for sure re. the details of current handgun legislation, but if you were able to fire a revolver legally anywhere in the UK, I would imagine it would be at somewhere like Bisley, simply because (I've been led to understand) it's the biggest and most prestigious. I really don't know, though.


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## FleshEater (Aug 26, 2013)

A 4" barrel with a round comparable to a .44? I wouldn't even want to shoot that. I shot a .44 revolver with I believe an 8" barrel, and that was enough. Knock 4" off of that and I'd be whistling Dixie through missing teeth. 

You Tube is your friend  girl owened shooting ruger super blackhawk 44 magnum - YouTube


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## FleshEater (Aug 26, 2013)

I guess the recoil isn't too bad, but this looks like a longer barrel. Shooting the Webley Mark 6 - YouTube


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## Lewdog (Aug 26, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> A 4" barrel with a round comparable to a .44? I wouldn't even want to shoot that. I shot a .44 revolver with I believe an 8" barrel, and that was enough. Knock 4" off of that and I'd be whistling Dixie through missing teeth.
> 
> You Tube is your friend  girl owened shooting ruger super blackhawk 44 magnum - YouTube



Oh lord how dumb were those guys to give that girl, that gun with more than one round of ammunition in it?


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## movieman (Aug 26, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> A 4" barrel with a round comparable to a .44? I wouldn't even want to shoot that.



Webley .455 rounds are a much lower muzzle velocity than .44 Magnum, I believe.

Besides, I've fired a snub-nosed .44 Magnum and it was jolly good fun. The Colt 1911 hurt more, I think because of the shape of the grip.

Edit: yeah, Wikipedia claims 180-231m/s, which isn't even supersonic.


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## FleshEater (Aug 26, 2013)

movieman said:


> Webley .455 rounds are a much lower muzzle velocity than .44 Magnum, I believe.
> 
> Besides, I've fired a snub-nosed .44 Magnum and it was jolly good fun. The Colt 1911 hurt more, I think because of the shape of the grip.
> 
> Edit: yeah, Wikipedia claims 180-231m/s, which isn't even supersonic.



Sounds like something you'd use if your life DIDN't depend on it.


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## movieman (Aug 26, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> Sounds like something you'd use if your life DIDN't depend on it.



It was an early development in sealed cartridges, and they probably wanted to make later versions compatible with the older guns. The 'hot' loads are only a little behind the standard 230 grain .45 ACP the US Army began using in the early 1900s, and superior to the .38 loads they were using before it.

Remember, this is an era where police were often quite happy with a .32 revolver which was as likely to annoy a criminal as stop them.


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## DPVP (Aug 26, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> What is the barrel length of the Webley she'll be using? That will determine the recoil. Can you even buy ammunition for that caliber?
> 
> My sister-in-law fired my Smith and Wesson .357 without any issues. I can post a pic of the monster if you'd like .


Hornady still makes it I know. It's part of their special ammo collection. Aka factory produced strange ammo


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## FleshEater (Aug 27, 2013)

movieman said:


> It was an early development in sealed cartridges, and they probably wanted to make later versions compatible with the older guns. The 'hot' loads are only a little behind the standard 230 grain .45 ACP the US Army began using in the early 1900s, and superior to the .38 loads they were using before it.
> 
> Remember, this is an era where police were often quite happy with a .32 revolver which was as likely to annoy a criminal as stop them.



My comment was directed more towards choosing the firearm today as a source of protection (as I believe the OP was planning on using it), rather than when it was made. 



DPVP said:


> Hornady still makes it I know. It's part of their special ammo collection. Aka factory produced strange ammo



I'd like to see the price per box. It's probably very expensive. I know their 5.45x39mm ammo is ridiculous.


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## Lewdog (Aug 27, 2013)

I just happened to be watching a show right now on the History Channel and they were talking about an automatic Luger pistol that was new to the time.  It said the gun had two safeties.  One was on the back side of the grip that when someone held the gun it would be compressed, and once that was compressed, there was also a flip on the side of the gun just above the grip that would only move if the first part was compressed.


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## FleshEater (Aug 27, 2013)

Lewdog said:


> I just happened to be watching a show right now on the History Channel and they were talking about an automatic Luger pistol that was new to the time.  It said the gun had two safeties.  One was on the back side of the grip that when someone held the gun it would be compressed, and once that was compressed, there was also a flip on the side of the gun just above the grip that would only move if the first part was compressed.



Sounds like the inspiration for later 1911 models.


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## Lewdog (Aug 27, 2013)

FleshEater said:


> Sounds like the inspiration for later 1911 models.



Yeah this was in the 1890's.  The show was actually all about different hangman gallows.  For some reason they talked about the Luger in it.


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## Morkonan (Sep 17, 2013)

Robdemanc said:


> I have never used a gun.  Never even picked one up.
> 
> My character has to learn how to use a gun, someone teaches him and gives him a three day intensive course in using a semi automatic pistol.
> 
> I wonder if anyone could tell me what it feels like to fire a gun?



There's a big scary sound and a bullet comes out of it. Depending on the caliber, the gun could buck or vibrate in your hand, leaving a tingling sensation not unlike having your palm hit with a baseball bat...



> Do you feel you have a lot of power?



Not especially, no. One reason is that if you're being instructed, typically you're at a firing range or someplace else where a bunch of other people are firing guns.



> Does it feel serious or kind of like a game?



It's very serious. Though, if one is an idiot, they may think it's some sort of game. See how that works? 



> Does it hurt your hands?  Does it smell?  Does it push your body or arms back?
> 
> It can, it does and it can. The severity of these sensations depend on the type of gun and its caliber. Also, a "revolver" will often send sparking bits of semi-exploded gunpowder out the side of the weapon, which can sting your hand. Automatics, generally, do a better job of fully enclosing the chamber of the weapon.
> 
> ...


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## Robdemanc (Sep 18, 2013)

Thanks Morkonan for all your answers.

I am going to use silencers in my story because one of the characters has to kill someone.  Has anyone used a silencer?  Does it affect the efficiency of the gun?


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## Alabastrine (Sep 18, 2013)

I would strongly suggest using Google and also finding a range (and a friend with a gun) and practice. Shooting is different for everybody, kind of like s..um.....you know... that horizontal pleasuring thing two people madly in love (or lust) do. 

*Can I say sex on here? I feel like I am going to be put in time out if I say the wrong thing. I like using big girl words!

Seriously though, shooting a handgun or a large caliber (AK47) gun is an experience you should try. If you can't, then I would youtube videos of people shooting for the first time. I am sure there are some good tips, pointers, comments you can find on there.


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## brian_o (Sep 18, 2013)

I don't know much about the varying models and designs of guns, but my dad raised me knowing how to operate them, and if your character is going to be getting lessons, I'll just tell you the six things my dad forced me to memorize before we ever shot. (I've shot both handguns and rifles)



Always treat the gun as if it's loaded.
When not in use, point the barrel of the gun at the ground, so if there's an accidental discharge, you're not endangering anyone. (I don't know how this would work on concrete, but when you're out in the boonies, it's a good rule of thumb.)
DO NOT point your gun at anyone unless you're planning on shooting them.
Guns are not toys.
When you're not using the gun, make sure the safety is on.
Even if you've ejected the magazine from the gun, there's still the possibility that there's a bullet in the action. This means that the gun is still potentially deadly. (One live shot left.)

My dad also always made sure that if we were going to go shooting we had some form of ear protection. Ear plugs will dampen the noise, but it's still quite loud.

The recoil of the gun depends largely on two factors: the size of the bullet and the length of the barrel. A .22 has very little kick in a rifle, but a little bit more on a handgun.

I don't really notice a smell, but I do my shooting outside.

I know most of the original questions were answered, but no one has covered the gun safety mindset as far as I've seen.

ETA: The rules are not listed in order of importance, they are just what I remembered in the order I remembered them.


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## Fred (May 28, 2015)

philistine said:


> Not to hijack the thread here, though are there any British folk here who shoot for a hobby? I'd really like to get into it.



Like Romero, I make the dead (topic) walk again: Philistine, did you ever get anywhere with this? I looked into it briefly a long time ago because my MC gets her hands on an old WW1 revolver and has to use it to shoot monsters. I believe that, here in the UK, under no circumstances whatsoever can a member of the public possess or fire a handgun; they have been banned since Dunblane and the closest you can legally shoot is an air pistol if you are a member of a shooting club. You can find plenty of places that will help you blow clay pigeons to bits using shotguns (which I'd love to try one day - my MC grabs a Mossberg from a police cruiser at one point), but I'm still curious if you pursued the pistol shooting thing, and if you did, do you think it bears any likeness to firing an old revolver, for example. If so, I might like to look into it myself.


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## stevesh (May 30, 2015)

Fred said:


> Like Romero, I make the dead (topic) walk again: Philistine, did you ever get anywhere with this? I looked into it briefly a long time ago because my MC gets her hands on an old WW1 revolver and has to use it to shoot monsters. I believe that, here in the UK, under no circumstances whatsoever can a member of the public possess or fire a handgun; they have been banned since Dunblane and the closest you can legally shoot is an air pistol if you are a member of a shooting club. You can find plenty of places that will help you blow clay pigeons to bits using shotguns (which I'd love to try one day - my MC grabs a Mossberg from a police cruiser at one point), but I'm still curious if you pursued the pistol shooting thing, and if you did, do you think it bears any likeness to firing an old revolver, for example. If so, I might like to look into it myself.



If you can find a cheap flight to the US, I'll be happy to take you out to my gun club and you can shoot any number of guns to your heart's content. I own three handguns and several rifles, and can borrow more. I also have a Concealed Pistol License from my state. We're so much more reasonable about guns here.


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## JamesR (Jul 3, 2015)

As far as handguns go, I have never fired a semi-automatic. Only revolvers. What I can tell you, at least from my experience with revolvers, is that hand placement is much more important than you may think. A wrong grip or misplaced finger can easily result in a severed or broken finger/hand. And if you fire in single action, you want to be very careful when the gun is cocked because the trigger becomes highly sensitive. Very easy to accidentally set off.


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## Green Rabbit (Aug 30, 2015)

I recently received my conceal/carry license here in the Midwest and have been thinking about writing about the experience.

The class I attended took place over one eight hour day. The first four hours took place inside a classroom and the last four took place outside shooting. We were told up front that this class was not designed to teach people gun safety; the shooting was to demonstrate that you knew how to safely operate a gun. That being said, there were people in my class who obviously had never fired a gun before who did just fine. Our "target" was a paper plate hanging five yards (fifteen feet) away. Hitting the paper plate was a lot like hitting your house with a rock from the front yard. The class provided semi-automatic .22 pistols which kicked barely more than the BB gun I owned as a child.

Coming from someone somewhat uncomfortable around guns, the biggest difference between a semi-automatic pistol and a revolver is that with a semi-automatic pistol, until you know exactly what's going there are a lot of unknowns. Is there a bullet in there or not? Am I out of bullets or is this thing jammed? The instructor proved a point to us by cocking the gun, removing the clip, and then firing the pistol into the target. Good to know!

Some of the other responses have already tackled the main points about guns so I'll just add a couple of different things. The first is, remember Newton's laws of physics (mainly, for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction). In the movies, guys go flying when they get hit with bullets. If that were the case, the gun would kick just as much when fired. Not to be get too gory but when people get shot very rarely do they "go flying." In fact, it's much more common for them to not even realize they've been shot. The other thing is, in regards to silencers... that's great movie fiction, not so much reality. I have never seen one in person but from what I've read they'll turn a deafening gun into simply a really loud one. They are more for dispersing muzzle flashes, making the source of gunfire more difficult to detect. Also, suppressors (in real life) are banned in lots of countries and illegal in several states and depending on where you are difficult to come by. 

Here's a link to a Youtube video of a guy firing a handgun with a suppressor, and while it's quieter than a normal gun note the loud echo he's still getting. It's definitely not that "pfffft" sound you hear in movies. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDHVvG6sg-s

EDIT: When writing about something technical (like guns) that readers may know about, it's always best to run your story past someone who knows about the subject matter. I don't know anything about car maintenance, but if I put a mechanic in my story I'll run that section by a co-worker before calling it good!


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## PhunkyMunky (Oct 26, 2015)

I haven't bothered to read all the responses here and I am sure many have given excellent advice in answering your questions. 

I've made my living with firearms for the past 15 years or so, and have shot since I was about 11. I saw one response say that a three day intensive course is overkill, but my opinion is that anyone who wants to conceal carry a firearm should be required to do it. Having a firearm for defensive purpose isn't a "point and shoot" philosophy. You have much to consider like who is beyond the target? Will your rounds go through that wall? How will you keep your attacker from taking your gun and using it on you? There is a lot that needs covered for defensive firearm use. Not the least of which is safety. 

In a shootout your adrenaline will spike, severely. Your hands will shake, your breathing is elevated even if you've done no physical exertion. This affects your marksmanship. So stress training is extremely important. Learning to shoot under stress can often mean the difference between a coffin and a few questions by police when they investigate. I prefer the latter. The effect is magnified when it's a lot more than just a 2 second shoot, I think. I could never really calm down during a firefight. It's scary, extremely loud, and the sounds you hear aren't like anything else on earth. It is a definite "Here and now" experience. Also, that adrenaline can be addicting. You may be scared out of your mind during a fight, but when things are slow and boring you may crave it.  

I know this isn't what you asked about, but this was the only response that came to my mind. There is a lot, in some cases a lifetime, of things that happen in a shootout. It's a dynamic thing. 

While I realize you didn't ask about this, try to imagine this: 

You and your guys are stacked outside a gate into someone's yard. A solid wall separates you from the yard. The chain goes around the handle on the gate and he rips the gate off, it's go time. Your breathing is heavy, even though you've not run yet. You run and stack along the house's wall. A squeeze behind you tells you their ready, you squeeze the guy in front, and the Breacher hits the door with the battering ram and it's open. You flow in, guns up, and yell "GET DOWN! GET DOWN!" women and children are screaming as they try to comply, the men also scream in fear. From that first room you move to the next. As you round a corner in the hallway, you meet a guy with an AK. You fire, he fires, and neither of you hit anything but wall and ceiling. Next thing you know an explosion sounds right next to your ear. Lucky for you, it was your buddy backing you up and AK man is down. You hear the voices of your team mates yelling as well, some saying "Clear!" and others may say "Such and such is down" or "Target down". No other threats inside the house, you're still amped up, and now it's time to separate the men from the rest so you can try to glean information from them. Out to the yard you go. 

Such a scenario plays itself out all the time in war. Even in SWAT raids it goes this way. Adrenaline is powerful stuff. The best drug on the planet and you can't get enough of it once you taste it. Even if that means being terrified to get it. And afterwards, when the rush begins to subside, you're exhausted and doubt fills the void. Couldn't we have just wounded him? What if he was a father to one of these children? Did I do the right thing? Is the news going to slaughter me over this? What if I had been the one killed? Who would take care of my family? Does god hate me now? Am I a murderer? 

Some, or all, of those questions could enter your mind. It depends on your beliefs and moral compass and there are many other questions that will enter your mind as well. The aftermath sucks, unless you've gotten to the point where it doesn't matter as sometimes happens. You can harden to it. It affects everyone differently. 

Probably way more than you were wanting to know, but again I thought I'd say what came to mind.


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