# A company of writers



## Bloggsworth (Aug 2, 2012)

As I read down the list of recent threads, what am I to make of the surprising number which are incorrectly spelled? We are supposed to be a company of writers, does it not behove us to, at the very least, spell the titles of our own threads correctly. I must admit to often bypassing a thread if I see typnig or spelling errors from those expecting us to help them with their writing, if they can't edit their own titles before posting? I'm not being a snob, I often make mistakes when typing, but I check and correct, even if I spot it a week later; surely editing your own work is a critical part of the whole process, and when I see really careless mistakes I wonder what I am going to find in the body of the piece.

Micro-rant over...


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## Arcopitcairn (Aug 2, 2012)

Even an intelligent person can make a simple mistake or two  I wouldn't hold it against anyone. You never know what kind of hidden gem you might miss if you pass up a story or poem because of a careless typing or spelling error.


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## Kevin (Aug 2, 2012)

For some reason my eraser doesn't work on the titles. Without asking a mod for help, I'm stuck with them. I have at least three titles out there that are spelled wrong; one just last week. Being the shy, embarassed type, I just left them, rather than bother the mods with yet another simple mistake.


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## shadowwalker (Aug 2, 2012)

Across several forums, I am constantly irritated (to various degrees) by writers who can't seem to put together a coherent sentence, let alone use proper spelling and punctuation. Aside from the technical aspects of how to correct things (I feel your pain, Kevin ), I just don't accept the idea that "oh, this is just a forum/thread/discussion - I write better than that". Not only does it influence whether or not I look at a thread, it definitely influences my opinion of the writer - or at least, what the writer has to say.


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## Sam (Aug 2, 2012)

Some people aren't good at remembering how to spell words, others may have dyslexia or partial-dyslexia, and others might not notice the spelling mistake before posting. We aren't all perfectionists. Don't judge a book by its cover. There may be a spelling mistake in the title, but that doesn't mean the work will have any, and you might be missing out on something good over a simple error. 

That said, I take great pride in all my writing. Forum posts, IMs, text messages -- it doesn't matter. I'm a grammar Nazi and hate SPaG mistakes in my own work. I also have a hard time taking people on social networking sites seriously because most of them don't know what a proper sentence is, never mind how to spell.


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## Nemesis (Aug 2, 2012)

_I got tired of opening my facebook page and seeing posts that looked like this:

"Golden corral man this n**** here done whew full and tired and too the large family beside us smh golden corral lost out on your profit good lord they was going inn like 4-5 plates a piece I was like daymmnn especially when they came to the table wit a plate full of the bread like ten rolls lol"
So I unfriended him.
_


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## Terry D (Aug 2, 2012)

My inability to spell is nearly pathological.  I'm sure someday geneticists will find a chromosomal link between poor handwriting and bad spelling :cower:.  That being said, I work at making my posts as error-free as possible.  Spelling, grammar, and punctuation exist to make our messages clear--to get our meaning across as fluently as possible--and isn't that what a forum post is trying to do?  To communicate a message?  Why would I think it's okay to mute that message by ignoring proper SPaG?

For the most part I don't hold SPaG errors against a poster, but when I see a total disregard for the rules (as with leet-speak, all caps, or no caps) I can't help but think that the poster either has no idea of the rules, or has little consideration of his/her reader.  I frequently just skim over pooly SPaGed scratch posts.  If that poster has so little regard for their message that they can't be bothered to write it clearly, then I don't have enough regard for it to waste my time deciphering it.

Just my opinion.


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## Cran (Aug 2, 2012)

Perhaps permissions have changed, but I've never had any trouble altering a thread title of a thread I've started.

Editing the title (whether thread or in-thread post title) meant editing the post involved; for the thread title, that means editing the opening post. 

Where editing time limits are imposed, title corrections then require approaching a moderator, prostrating oneself (kissing feet, etc) and begging said moderator to do the deed.


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## Bloggsworth (Aug 2, 2012)

Apart from trigonometry and geometry I am rubbish at maths/arithmetic, I frequently see numbers transpose while I am looking at them, so I do every calculation more than once to ensure that I have it right. If I put a title on a thread, I read it several times to ensure that I haven't made a mistake. It is quite common on forums to see non-native English speakers writing better English then those for whom it is their first language. Typing mistakes are perhaps the most correctable of all, it is merely a matter of looking at what you have typed and correcting it, too many just press the send button as soon as they have stopped typing - Check first, send later. Dyslexics are another thing altogether, and for them, writing is a lot harder, so they have to make a lot more effort to get it right. In the main, nearly all the writing that troubles me is sheer carelessness, or an unwillingness to pick up a dictionary and check - On my taskbar I have WordWeb, so if I am unsure, I highlight a word to check whether I have a) spelled it correctly, and b) used the right word, a matter of seconds.

This will, of course, guarantee that my next few posts will be riddled with elementary mistakes...


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## Sam (Aug 2, 2012)

Cran said:


> Perhaps permissions have changed, but I've never had any trouble altering a thread title of a thread I've started.
> 
> Editing the title (whether thread or in-thread post title) meant editing the post involved; for the thread title, that means editing the opening post.
> 
> Where editing time limits are imposed, title corrections then require approaching a moderator, prostrating oneself (kissing feet, etc) and begging said moderator to do the deed.



Members can't alter thread titles -- their own included.


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## Kevin (Aug 2, 2012)

Every word I'm unsure of I check. The problem is when I'm casually so sure that I don't check. Using ms word is helping. It's finally sinking in that it's children; not childeren, and business; not buisness. I'm learning by rote (wrote? better check that..ok, it's right, er, correct)


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## Cran (Aug 2, 2012)

Sam said:
			
		

> Members can't alter thread titles -- their own included.



Then permissions have changed since I last needed to, and the second option is the way to go.


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## felix (Aug 2, 2012)

I understand the OP's point. 
But I can't say that it bothers me at all. As somebody who often logs in on their mobile phone and Ipad, I can say it takes a long time to punctuate and use the caps lock, more time than I can afford if I've just quickly logged in on the bus to post a quick reply. 
I always do it, of course, because I'm anal that way. But I can perfectly understand if somebody doesn't. 
This forum isn't supposed to be a place for writers to pat each other on the back for being masters of language. It's just a place to gain a sense of community and mutual support. 

I'm with people on this, but...you know, suck it up. Babies. 

EDIT:

I feel that my stance on this stems from the fact that I feel that being able to punctuate and spell do not make you a better writer. Some novels are terribly written, but are incredible nonetheless by virtue of their story alone. Saying that writing is in the SPaG is like saying that mathematics is in symbolic algebra or that music is all clefs and time signatures. 
They're nothing of the sort. They're methods of conveyance. Symbols in themselves mean nothing. They require interpretation by human beings. 
And so whether a comma is in the correct place or not means absolutely nothing other than what it means to the human being that reads it. There's nothing intrinsically 'better' about the comma being in the 'correct' place. 
Also, standardised spelling is relatively new. Great storytellers from across the ages never had to bother with such piffle; it didn't matter, their stories were all that mattered. 

And so concludes my own mini-rant.


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## JosephB (Aug 2, 2012)

I’ve lost so much sleep over this -- misspelled thread titles on a writing site. What is the world coming to?


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## Morkonan (Aug 2, 2012)

Bloggsworth said:


> As I read down the list of recent threads, what am I to make of the surprising number which are incorrectly spelled? We are supposed to be a company of writers, does it not behove us ...



"Behoove."



I don't really worry about casual misspellings or grammatical errors. Maybe the cat jumped on the keyboard, how am I to know? I do try to limit such problems in my own posts, but I'm not always successful. However, if it's a Writing Submission, an attention to details like that matters very much.


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## JosephB (Aug 2, 2012)

Morkonan said:


> "Behoove."



That's the U.S. spelling. :wink:


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## Writ (Aug 2, 2012)

Spelling correctly and good grammar can give the appearance of intelligence. Maybe it is an indicator. But I've surprisingly found that there are reasonably intelligent people you can speak face to face with that seem to be very challenged when it comes to expressing themselves with the written word.

For my part, I think I might be dyslexic when it comes to spelling, if it weren't for the computers ability to conduct rudimentary spell check I think a great number of people would take me less serious and probably write me off as stupid. But if I were motivated and diligent I'm sure I could improve my ability at spelling, but that would require a lot of energy on my part. I don't really have that motivation.  

Grammar is also problematic for me. No lie... I have forgotten possibly 99% of things I learned in my first two semesters of college English and I passed both with A's and praise. Hell, I even submitted an honors paper for one teacher, she also retained one of my papers to use as an example for student in her future classes.

But spelling and grammar are like mathematics for me. Literally I have to relearn the same simple things over and over and over again to the point it seems like I've covered the same things a million times. It gets frustrating over time and at least for me my motivation begins to falter. I've read that there is a strong statistical correlation between those good in mathematics and those good in grammar. Since I've always sucked in math that might go a long way as an explanation why I have to relearn grammatical English like I have to relearn even basic math. 

I've reread numerous times when to use *immigration* and when to use _*emigration*_ and it does not matter because I eventually end up forgetting again. And there are certain words I think I have literally covered tens of thousands of times on how to properly spell. You'd think I'd have them memorized. But no, one or two days later I've forgotten how to properly spell them again.  





My former Africology professor used to berate his young class about the younger generations ability at English writing, so much so he said he gave up giving essay exams. However, conversing through email he informed me I write very well and would do excellent taking essay exams. The thing is though... I really don't know what the hell I'm doing, I do what I do off instincts. :lol:

Writing, Bloggs, is a process. I really believe so. Writing therefore usually comes with errors and better or worse choices in diction. Even the best writers seem to rely on editing their compositions, so, in my mind that says a lot (I just wrote "a lot" as "alot" before spell check caught it. If I've told you the number of times I made that mistake you would not believe. For some reason, my mind automatically thinks "a lot" should be spelled as "alot."). And while an error in a title might seem glaringly obvious to one person, or the more diligent, for another person writing the title they might have run their eyes over the title 15 times and not have spotted the error. It's possible. I think, sometimes it's because our brain reads what we *want* to say as opposed to what we are actually saying.


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## shadowwalker (Aug 2, 2012)

Writ said:


> Spelling correctly and good grammar can give the appearance of intelligence. Maybe it is an indicator. But I've surprisingly found that there are reasonably intelligent people you can speak face to face with that seem to be very challenged when it comes to expressing themselves with the written word.



I don't doubt that one bit. But what we're talking about is people on writing forums - the assumption being that most, if not all, are writers. So, personally, I hold them to a higher standard. 

I also don't have a problem with occasional lapses or typos - it happens to everyone. What bothers me are longer posts filled with spelling/punctuation problems, or when these things occur in the majority of that person's posts. For me, anyway, writing properly should be almost ingrained in writers. And most forums (including this one, I believe) allow one to spellcheck at least (ah, yes it does - it's flagging "spellcheck" as I write). 

Now, I'm not going to lambast everyone who's careless in their posting, and I'm not going to lose any sleep due to outrage over it. But it is an irritant at the time, and it does affect how I view that person's comments and opinions.


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## Olly Buckle (Aug 2, 2012)

> what we're talking about is people on writing forums - the assumption being that most, if not all, are writers. So, personally, I hold them to a higher standard.


But one of the objects of the forum is to assist those who want to improve their writing, it would seem counter productive then to insist on a minimum standard to be achieved before you qualify for help.

I have done it myself, 'Toatally pointless posts', rather than admit to it I insist it is a form of humour in that case.


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## patskywriter (Aug 2, 2012)

Bloggsworth said:


> … This will, of course, guarantee that my next few posts will be riddled with elementary mistakes...



Forget about future posts. Go back and take another look at your original post—I spotted at least seven errors in that one paragraph!

But I'm just funnin' ya.    However, I will go on to say that it would be nice if people went over their messages before posting them.


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## shadowwalker (Aug 2, 2012)

Olly Buckle said:


> But one of the objects of the forum is to assist those who want to improve their writing, it would seem counter productive then to insist on a minimum standard to be achieved before you qualify for help.
> 
> I have done it myself, 'Toatally pointless posts', rather than admit to it I insist it is a form of humour in that case.



But if one is at a level where basic punctuation is a problem, and one doesn't know how to deal with a spellchecker, just how much help are we expected to give them? If one really wants to be a writer, I think - and this is only my opinion - that it's the responsibility of that person to learn these basics themselves, rather than expect members of a forum to teach them. There are numerous avenues outside forums to do so. (I must admit - I also get impatient when people ask questions when they clearly have not attempted to find the answers on their own first. But that's another discussion. )


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## Olly Buckle (Aug 2, 2012)

> But if one is at a level where basic punctuation is a problem,


It was Hawke pointed out to me that one of my first stories was basically a single sentence with a lot of commas. If she had not I would never have realised there was a problem. What seems basic and obvious to you may not be to the writer. If someone consistently ignores advice and continues in the same error that is something else, but different people making the same error may all simply be ignorant of what they are doing. It can get tiresome saying the same thing, but it is often simply the next generation arriving, there should also be pleasure in seeing another lot of people taking information on board and starting to make progress.


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## philistine (Aug 2, 2012)

I view those who misspell words, make grammatical faux pas, and botch basic syntax as being second-class citizens. 

I also judge books by their covers (why should you not? It's quite an efficient way of going about things), and shall continue to do so.


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## shadowwalker (Aug 2, 2012)

Olly Buckle said:


> It was Hawke pointed out to me that one of my first stories was basically a single sentence with a lot of commas. If she had not I would never have realised there was a problem.



What I'm talking about is people who don't know that when they end a sentence, it requires a period, or when they start a sentence, it requires a capital. Many people have trouble with run-on sentences. I've seen that with experienced writers as well as the newbies. So I'm not talking about a trouble spot here and there in a story - that's why we ask for crits, to spot those places we miss because we're too close to it. I'm talking about people who actually don't know how to write a basic sentence - and yes, I've gotten stories from people like that asking me to beta for them. I just think, out of respect for the other members at least, one should take some care when posting, and it surprises me that it isn't second-nature to write properly regardless of the venue.


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## Writ (Aug 2, 2012)

shadowwalker said:


> What I'm talking about is people who don't know that when they end a sentence, it requires a period, or when they start a sentence, it requires a capital. Many people have trouble with run-on sentences. I've seen that with experienced writers as well as the newbies.



Some aspect of writing is basic logic. There are rules in writing so that you the composer of your message can be easily intelligible. I think people that don't use periods or comas don't understand this. Rules help provide elegance in literary or musical composition and assembling words or symbols without the cement of rules just results nonsensical, visual, chaos. 

But writing is not like mathematics - even though both are essentially languages - in the sense that writing does not require precision. Technically you should never begin a sentence with *but* or *and* but you can be understood if you do so. And people speak naturally like that anyways. 

The only time I've ever gotten upset over a person's post - in terms of spelling and grammar - is when their post has been totally nonsensical. 

But hey, the closer to perfection you are the less you have to worry about (minus envy).


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## Kyle R (Aug 3, 2012)

Gandhi is famously misquoted as having said: "Be the change you wish to see in the world."

(The actual quote is: "If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards him.... We need not wait to see what others do.")

But, still, I think the bumper sticker-esque interpretation applies here, wouldn't you say? :encouragement:


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## Olly Buckle (Aug 3, 2012)

> There are rules in writing so that ... your message can be easily intelligible.


Exactly Writ, and those who do not understand them have trouble communicating, surely we should feel some form of regret for such people and a desire to assist them rather than contempt. Yes, it is second nature to me to speak and write grammatically on the whole, but my mother was a teacher of English (Among other subjects). it has been demonstrated many times that those for whom it is not second nature are at a considerable disadvantage in the world, they earn less, spend their lives more involved in things like violence and crime and die younger, that is well established. Now if someone is trying to haul themselves out of that pit there can be two reactions, "You don't know what you are doing, there are those who lead and those who labour and are cannon fodder, get back in your place." or "You don't know what you are doing, let me give you a hand up, and you can join us". One is maintaining the status quo, the other is improving the world little by little. One is passing on a heritage to those lucky enough to be entitled through upbringing and birth, the other is seeing the world as all being of my family. I am of the latter view, if my children did not understand I tried to deal with it with patience and help them to do so, why not take the same attitude towards the rest of the world? Persistent bad behaviour was another thing, I am not some hippie parent who said "That's naughty, say sorry, moonshadowdancer", they didn't say sorry, they felt sorry, but people who are arrogant towards those who offer advice and persist in posting total trash don't last long here anyway in my experience.

Language rules are flexible Writ, I don't think starting a sentence 'but' is still viewed in the same way. Modern grammars tend to be not nearly so prescriptive, that is rather than telling you what should be done they attempt to describe what actually happens.


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## Sam (Aug 3, 2012)

shadowwalker said:


> But if one is at a level where basic punctuation is a problem, and one doesn't know how to deal with a spellchecker, just how much help are we expected to give them? If one really wants to be a writer, I think - and this is only my opinion - that it's the responsibility of that person to learn these basics themselves, rather than expect members of a forum to teach them. There are numerous avenues outside forums to do so. (I must admit - I also get impatient when people ask questions when they clearly have not attempted to find the answers on their own first. But that's another discussion. )



I agree. 

I live in the countryside of South Armagh, Northern Ireland, miles from the nearest town. When I started writing in '99, my Internet access was a dial-up modem. It took forever to load Google, never mind any other website. So I didn't have access to a forum, a grammar guide, or anything which could explain how to construct a grammatically sound sentence. I wrote my first novel on Notepad; no spell- or grammar-checker. Further, only two years before, I had been given an F for my final-year English exam in high school. My writing was very suspect, but I kept going. I found the best authors in my chosen genre and I read their books cover-to-cover. I finished my first novel, printed it, and gave it a once-over before confining it to a box underneath my bed. I wrote three more in the next three years, and it was towards the end of the fourth that I realised how much my writing had improved. 

Point is, I got an *F* in high school. I now have a degree in English literature, and my writing has improved even more since the end of my fourth novel. I'm taking a year off from studies and then I will enrol in a Masters course. I may even, circumstances willing, go for a full-time PhD course after that. Quite a change from the guy whose high-school English teacher called his writing "probably the worst I've ever seen in twenty years of education", wouldn't you say? 

Great writing can be learned. Put enough hours into your craft and you will reap the benefits.


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## Bloggsworth (Aug 3, 2012)

Sam, the difference is desire. At school you were being taught English when you would probably rather have been doing anything else but. After you left school you realised that you wanted to write and when you write you are not "doing English", you are using it to further your ambitions, now your reason for acquiring a knowledge of the mechanics of English has changed, so your efforts are directed towards what you need to take from the knowledge you had amassed and add to it and direct it. I have a friend who can give me chapter and verse about gerunds, transitive and intransitive verbs, he can almost recite parts of Fowler's English Usage, but he couldn't write a novel. Tools are only of use if you know what to do with them, better to have few tools and use them well, then have a boxful and, looking at them, wonder what each does. English is the carrier for your ideas, so use it as best you can, and both grammar and punctuation are important - In this thread I have read some who say that getting it right in the title doesn't really matter, it's the content of the piece; I am sure that, many times in your life, you have been told that first impressions count, that people make decisions about the people they meet in the first few seconds after meeting them; well, titles are the first meeting, if they give a bad impression you are already on the back foot.

As an aside, Ian McEwan was in my house at school, and when speaking to our old English master a couple of years ago he told me that from what he did in English at school, there was no clue as to what he would become.


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## JosephB (Aug 3, 2012)

Olly Buckle said:


> Now if someone is trying to haul themselves out of that pit there can be two reactions, "You don't know what you are doing, there are those who lead and those who labour and are cannon fodder, get back in your place." or "You don't know what you are doing, let me give you a hand up, and you can join us". One is maintaining the status quo, the other is improving the world little by little.



That’s all very noble, but I seriously doubt that many of the people who login here are trying to haul themselves out of a pit. Most already imagine they have some sort of writing ability or they wouldn’t be here. It’s not so much about contempt, as an expectation that posters should care about writing enough to put a little effort into it. Not too much to ask -- and thinking so doesn't make you some kind of elitist.

Besides, I didn’t come here to save the world one bad writer at a time. If someone is struggling with the basics to the point that it's somehow holding him back in life, this is hardly the place to come for help. This place is mostly about honing a craft and creativity and the art of storytelling -- I don't think it's for people who need that level of assistance.


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## The Backward OX (Aug 3, 2012)

felix said:


> I understand the OP's point.
> But I can't say that it bothers me at all. As somebody who often logs in on their mobile phone and Ipad, I can say it takes a long time to punctuate and use the caps lock, more time than I can afford if I've just quickly logged in on the bus to post a quick reply.



This is what's wrong with the rest of the world. Everyone else is in such a tearing hurry all the time. WHY?


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## Bloggsworth (Aug 3, 2012)

The Backward OX said:


> This is what's wrong with the rest of the world. Everyone else is in such a tearing hurry all the time. WHY?



They think they might miss something, what they don't realise is they they have rushed past everything worth seeing...


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## Olly Buckle (Aug 3, 2012)

Joseph

“That’s all very noble,”
Do I detect a slight note of sarcasm? It isn’t actually, living life with that point of view means people generally think of me as one of the good guys, the other point of view gets you viewed as the competition at best, the enemy at worst. Being thought of as the good guy tends to smooth my path through life.

“thinking so doesn't make you some kind of elitist.”
Maybe not you, some it would appear view it differently:-
“I view those who misspell words, make grammatical faux pas, and botch basic syntax as being second-class citizens.”

“If someone is struggling with the basics to the point that it's somehow holding him back in life, this is hardly the place to come for help.”
You are a bit of an old pessimist aren't you? I don’t view it so much as the lack of the basics holding them back as giving them access to the basics and the opportunity to move forward, if they take it that can be very rewarding rather than a chore, that’s not noble; reframe it, put a bit of spin on the world and enjoyi life.

“This place is mostly about honing a craft and creativity and the art of storytelling” 
Good, basic, communication skills, just the sort of thing they might move on to after they have read the Strunk and White you recommended to improve their English.

I am not saying that people don’t need to make an effort, I am not going to write their story for them either, but it is helpful to point people in the direction they need to go rather than leaving them to struggle alone. If they have got it wrong through ignorance they are probably only partially aware of this. Sometimes one can not distinguish good from bad if one does not have the tools to define good, and new learning is required. That it is relatively simple once you know it is not of assistance to the ignorant. Given a little guidance the brighter ones move on quite quickly though.

I am a firm believer in improving the world one person at a time by the way. I don’t believe the great revolutions and isms, like National socialism, Marxism or Capitalism improve the world, only change who is in charge. People who work with individuals do the changing, quietly, little by little.


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## shadowwalker (Aug 3, 2012)

Olly, I don't think anyone is saying let people sink or swim totally on their own. However, coming to a writing forum without having the basics down at least to the point of being able to communicate just seems a little bit much. I'm more than happy to help people who have first helped themselves, or who have shown that they are trying to do so. But I'm not willing to spend my time helping someone who has not even tried. And people know if their grammar and/or spelling needs work - just reading and comparing what they write to that will tell them. So do the homework, take some classes, and _then _come to forums ready to contribute and learn and get help.


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## The Backward OX (Aug 3, 2012)

Olly Buckle said:


> Joseph
> 
> “That’s all very noble,”
> Do I detect a slight note of sarcasm? It isn’t actually, living life with that point of view means people generally think of me as one of the good guys, the other point of view gets you viewed as the competition at best, the enemy at worst. Being thought of as the good guy tends to smooth my path through life.
> ...



I don't know about _certain_ people learning punctuation, but isn't it about time _certain_ people learnt how to use the 


> facility [/unquote],





> to make it easy for readers to follow who's saying what? Hmm?


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## Olly Buckle (Aug 3, 2012)

> coming to a writing forum without having the basics down at least to the point of being able to communicate just seems a little bit much.


We seem to have strayed a bit, the op was about misspellings in titles, as most misspellings are phonetic they hardly constitute much of a barrier to communication  

My point is that in some respects it is not possible to understand what you do not know (It is a bit like th 'known unknowns and the unknown unknowns')
One sounds funny, the other seems impossible, that something so basic needs pointing out, but it sometimes is the case. I have replied in a pleasant and friendly way to posts such as you describe, sometimes I am ignored, sometimes the person takes umbrage, sometimes I get something a bit wrong or am misunderstood, sometimes people agree, and make a bit of effort, but there is a lot in the way, and just occasionally someone disappears and comes back six or eight months later changed, and I think *JACKPOT*. I don't know what the odds are, but they have got to be better than winning the lottery, and I think I am getting better at it; and one of the important things is the casual, no blame, friendly approach. I try and see it from the reader's point of view and use my skills to show them how they could improve theirs, a skill only exists if it is practised. Of course that's how I get my kicks, I can quite understand another wanting to use their writing skills to another end, it is not the only end I aim mine at, but why get niggled or annoyed by misspelling? Nobody has to read or give crit here, if what you don't like is in the title you don't even have to open the thread, there are enough threads here there is always another one so why spend your life being p***ed off about something you don't have to?

Perhaps I am helped by the fact that my spelling is awful, it improved a bit doing flash cards with the kids when they were young, but if it were not for spellcheck I would certainly be amongst those you complain of. The other thing, though I am uncertain, is that I have a memory that spellcheck does not work inside the title box, so to take advantage of it you need to compose in 'word', then copy and paste, I think it is since I made that discovery that I put the title at the top then cut and paste it into the title box, the forum puts it back at the top of the page.


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## Olly Buckle (Aug 3, 2012)

The Backward OX said:


> I don't know about _certain_ people learning punctuation, but isn't it about time _certain_ people learnt how to use the
> 
> 
> > facility [/unquote],
> ...


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## Olly Buckle (Aug 3, 2012)

How did you make it come out like that? I hit 'reply with quote, it's nothing like your post, see, it's the forum conspiring against us, "Go back to the old fashioned ways" I say,


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## The Backward OX (Aug 3, 2012)

Olly Buckle said:


> That "quotes" thing is because I composed in 'word' and I know all that disappears when I copy and paste,



Not with yours truly at the helm it doesn't. To _mis-quote_ from your other post, it isn't the forum conspiring against us, it's your word-processor conspiring against you. _Irregardless_ of what garza says about using only Notepad or toilet paper or whatever it is he uses, I find it simple to compose everything in Word - including all of others' quoted bits of posts - and Copy/Pasting my entire contribution into the forum window, from whence it comes out in the forum exactly as I submitted it.

And don't forget the Preview Post button. You're never rushing for a bus like some around here, and would always have time to check and re-do, if necessary. _You're not using Quick Reply, are you? _Always use Go Advanced.


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## The Backward OX (Aug 3, 2012)

Olly Buckle said:


> How did you make it come out like that? I hit 'reply with quote, it's nothing like your post,



I dunno. I guess it's just like playing the piano by ear, or knowing how to drive without ever having had a lesson, or having a green thumb. Some people are just good at some stuff.


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## Cran (Aug 3, 2012)

Olly Buckle said:


> The Backward OX said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know about _certain_ people learning punctuation, but isn't it about time _certain_ people learnt how to use the I think my punctuation is improving, old dogs and new tricks, but I am trying. That "quotes" thing is because I composed in 'word' and I know all that disappears when I copy and paste, so I used those old fashioned quotation marks you grew up with.(please insert suitable emoticon).
> ...


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## Olly Buckle (Aug 4, 2012)

> And don't forget the Preview Post button. You're never rushing for a bus like some around here, and would always have time to check and re-do, if necessary. You're not using Quick Reply, are you? Always use Go Advanced.


To be honest I had forgotten all about the advanced options, better emoticons herehttp://www.writingforums.com/images/smilies/tickled_pink.png The second part of your comment reminds me of an incident the other week. I had got off an overground train at Clapham Junction and as it terminated there there was a large crowd of people going up the stairs. The Wegeners affects my balance a bit, so I like to take my time and use the hand rail. I was stood back waiting for the crowd to clear when a gentleman whose origins were probably in the Indian sub continent and who was dressed in Railway uniform, approached me and pointed out a lift at the back of the staircase. I thanked him and replied that the exercise was good for me, (Stairs are about the only heart lung exercise I get nowadays) but I didn't need the crush. He shook his head in that Indian way that is not a negative and said "Ah patience, if only more people had it nowadays.", perhaps we should go and live in the 'Exotic Marigold' Oxhttp://www.writingforums.com/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif

Sorry to stray so far off topic, let's return to the OP.


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## Olly Buckle (Aug 4, 2012)

So much for advanced option smileys, returns to colon and bracket


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## The Backward OX (Aug 4, 2012)

Olly Buckle said:


> So much for advanced option smileys, returns to colon and bracket



They're there in their thousands, if you know where to look. Just go to Advanced, and over on the right, under the 15 sample faces, you'll see [More]. Click on that and the entire Aladdin's cave opens up. If you put your cursor in the posting window at the point where you want the smiley to appear, before opening [More], and then click on the smiley you want, it pops up just where you want it. 'Mazing.


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## The Backward OX (Aug 4, 2012)

L J Or you can do _either_ of these, with a colon followed by ( or ).


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## JosephB (Aug 4, 2012)

Olly Buckle said:


> I am a firm believer in improving the world one person at a time by the  way. People who work with individuals do the changing, quietly, little  by little.



Well, good for you! That's what I believe too -- and I put it into practice  all the time. When it comes to English specifically, my wife and I assisted at our church’s ESL program for two years – with teaching and with childcare -- and then with the summer program for kids for another three. 

But I didn't come here to improve the world or to pull people out of pits. I came here  to improve my writing. It's a reciprocal deal -- so if someone is helped in the process -- great. If you want to approach it differently, that's fine too -- but you're implying that people who don't see it your way don't care about helping others -- that they're not one the "good guys" like you -- and that's baloney.


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## Bloggsworth (Aug 4, 2012)

More responses than any of my poems - Maybe I should become a controversialist, after all, we're short of one today...


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## The Backward OX (Aug 5, 2012)

JosephB said:


> you're implying that people who don't see it your way don't care about helping others -- that they're not one the "good guys" like you -- and that's baloney.



Where exactly does Olly imply this? I looked twice, and couldn't see it. Am I lacking in verbal perspicacity, or is it you who's talking baloney? Methinks the latter.


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## felix (Aug 5, 2012)

The Backward OX said:


> This is what's wrong with the rest of the world. Everyone else is in such a tearing hurry all the time. WHY?



I'm not in a hurry. The buttons are fiddly...


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## Kevin (Aug 5, 2012)

Bloggsworth said:


> More responses than any of my poems ...


It is a narrow niche, and any sociality is easily discouraged.


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## vcnavega (Aug 5, 2012)

As Bloggsworth said, some non-native English speakers (me included) write better English than those for whom it is their first language. I am a Brazilian and I am also very careful when I write Portuguese. But when I write in English I am especially extra careful. I find it a good exercise. Sometimes it is not just misspelling. Rereading the text before placing the thread gives us the opportunity of rephrasing a sentence, including a point, improving the text, and I guess it is useful for a writer in any occasion. We should never count only on our first instinct when writing something. We are to double check our writing, since the first version of our writing is more emotional, and the other views we have of it will be more rational, and better edited.


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