# Copyright before submitting manuscript?



## ripeart (Sep 29, 2011)

Maybe this is a ridiculous question however I wanted to ask the boards advice regarding copyright status at the time of manuscript submission. To be more clear I want to submit a chapter or two to Focal Press (Elsevier), however my work is not yet copyrighted and only 75% complete. I'm unsure as to how to copyright an incomplete work, or even if I need to at this stage.

Thoughts?

Thanks =)


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## Terry D (Sep 29, 2011)

Your work is covered by copyright law as soon as you produce it.  There is no need for a formal registering of copyright (although that is something you can do if you wish).  Many new writers worry about sending out their work to publishers, or agents for fear of their work being stolen.  This does not happen.


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## ripeart (Sep 29, 2011)

This is excellent news. Thank you.


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## Rustgold (Sep 29, 2011)

There's a saying that work with a circular C is a sign of a noob writer and automatic green bin pile.  Just put your name to your work.


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## eraser (Sep 30, 2011)

I very strongly suggest you do not send any sample chapters until the ms is 100% complete and polished to near-perfection.  Trust me, the last thing an agent/pub wants to hear if intrigued by a query/sample and requesting a full is: "Oh. Well, it's not quite finished yet. Gimme a month or three and I'll get back to you."


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## Terry D (Sep 30, 2011)

eraser said:


> I very strongly suggest you do not send any sample chapters until the ms is 100% complete and polished to near-perfection. Trust me, the last thing an agent/pub wants to hear if intrigued by a query/sample and requesting a full is: "Oh. Well, it's not quite finished yet. Gimme a month or three and I'll get back to you."



That's a good point, eraser.  Only established writers can get by with submitting a manuscript piecemeal.  No publisher, or agent will consider a partial manuscript from a new writer.


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## JosephB (Sep 30, 2011)

Rustgold said:


> There's a saying that work with a circular C is a sign of a noob writer and automatic green bin pile.  Just put your name to your work.



Yep, those noobs! When I'm knocking a few cold ones back with my pals in the publishing industry, I hear this one every time.


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## yahweh (Oct 7, 2011)

I've read quite a few things relating to submissions, and they've all said that your work is copyrighted as soon as you write it. In that case, even if it is 75% finished, it'll be copyrighted.


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## Steerpike (Oct 8, 2011)

A reason it is considered amateurish to register before submission is that your publisher will generally take care of the sort of thing. It isn't necessary for establishing the copyright. If you self-publish you may want to register shortly after publication.


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## theorphan (Oct 8, 2011)

Along with what most people have already said when I was at the PNWA (Pacific Northwest Writer's Association) Conference they actually said one thing that publishers and agents hate to hear is that I already have my work copyrighted.  The reason for this they said was it makes the writer sound childish and amateurish.


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## garza (Oct 8, 2011)

I never register anything for copyright any more. As soon as I start putting words on paper or in a computer, it's copyrighted. Everyone in the business is supposed to know that already, so it's understandable that a piece coming in with a copyright symbol attached from an unknown would be tossed without further consideration.

As for submitting a query, it all depends. I emailed a regional ag mag recently - 'I have 5k of interviews with cane farmers w/pix. You want?' The answer was to send it and the usual rate would apply.


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## Steerpike (Oct 8, 2011)

garza said:


> I never register anything for copyright any more. As soon as I start putting words on paper or in a computer, it's copyrighted.



Yes, but for those of us in the U.S., if we want to enforce that copyright we have to register it, as a rule. And if the registration isn't done within a certain amount of time after publication you forfeit certain damages. So for something important, like a self-published novel, registration isn't a bad idea.


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## garza (Oct 8, 2011)

Statutory damages and attornies fees may be forfieted in the U.S. if the copyright is not registered. Otherwise it is forbidden by international treaty, beginning with the Berne Convention, to require the registration of a literary work for the copyright to be enforcable. When you write it, you hold the copyright.


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## The Backward OX (Oct 8, 2011)

garza said:


> i emailed a regional ag mag recently - 'i have 5k of interviews with cane farmers w/pix. You want?' the answer was to send it and the usual rate would apply.





> originally posted by *garza*
> 
> 
> i'm arrogant, opinionated, and a control freak when in the presence of people less sure of themselves.





​


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## Steerpike (Oct 8, 2011)

garza said:


> Statutory damages and attornies fees may be forfieted in the U.S. if the copyright is not registered. Otherwise it is forbidden by international treaty, beginning with the Berne Convention, to require the registration of a literary work for the copyright to be enforcable. When you write it, you hold the copyright.



In the U.S., if you want to file a copyright infringement suit in Federal Court, you have to have the work registered first. And Federal courts are the ones who hear copyright infringement claims, so yes you have to have a registration here to bring suit for infringement.


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## garza (Oct 9, 2011)

xO - I don't see your point. I treat editors the way I treat everyone else. To quote my favourite bumper sticker, 'If you don't like the way I drive, stay off of the sidewalk'.

Steerpike - I've never run into a problem, no doubt because when I sell to a publisher in the U.S., they register their own copyright.


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## Cran (Oct 9, 2011)

The US Copyright Office position regarding both sides of the discussion  (Note the 5 year recommended limit on registration) - 


> *When is my work protected?*
> Your work is under copyright protection the moment  it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible  either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.
> 
> *Do I have to register with your office to be protected?*
> ...



U.S. Copyright Office
              101 Independence Avenue SE
              Washington, DC 20559-6000
              (202) 707-3000

U.S. Copyright Office - Copyright in General (FAQ)


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## Steerpike (Oct 9, 2011)

Yes, garza, a publisher will handle it for you. That's why I made the statement about self-published writers. I wouldn't register everything, but if you have a self-published novel out there it is worth considering. It is cheap and you can do it yourself online. And apart from the necessity if you want to sue, the availability of statutory damages and attorney's fees can be important in some cases.


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## garza (Oct 9, 2011)

Steerpike - I see your point. I've never self-published anything, or posted anything on the Internet worth stealiang, so I've never thought about damages and lawyers' fees. Cran's post clarifies the situation, at least as far as the U.S. is concerned.


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## The Backward OX (Oct 10, 2011)

What's that saying again? _Only in America._


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## garza (Oct 10, 2011)

I am also in America. Central America. 

The laws are somewhat different in each nation. Belize law is based on English Common Law, as are U.S. Federal laws and the laws of 49 of the 50 U.S. states. Almost all nations, however, are guided by the principles first laid down in the Berne Convention. I've had two books published in Belize and in both cases the publishers registered the copyright, the same as has happened to material I've had published in the U.S. and the U.K. Until I sold the rights to publish and the publishers registered their copyrights, however, under the Berne Convention I was the sole copyright owner.


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## SeverinR (Oct 18, 2011)

You own your work the minute you write it.

From what I understood from the Literary Agent class:
You only need the copyright to sell it to the publisher, but they will do the work and cover the cost if they want your book.
If you own a copyright to a work of no monetary value you wasted $.

PUblishers don't have time to read much of your novel, why would they want to steal a novel that odds are is not going to sell without some more work? --Remember they get thousands of submissions(a week?) and every one the author thinks it is the cross genre universal best seller. (much like the school report in Christmas story?:icon_cheesygrin


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## jonmaxwell (Nov 15, 2011)

i copyright anything that goes out. i don't care what anyone thinks about that fact.

if someone rips you off, what evidence are you going to have against him?


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## movieman (Nov 22, 2011)

jonmaxwell said:


> if someone rips you off, what evidence are you going to have against him?



The big publishers are typically multi-million-dollar subsidiaries of multi-billion-dollar media companies. Why would they 'rip off' your book when they could just buy it for 20% of the cover price?

This kind of thing just doesn't happen when you submit to reputable markets, because there's no point stealing something that's no good and no benefit to stealing something that's good. I can't think of a single documented case of someone succesfully passing off someone else's book as theirs in the last few decades in Britain or America.


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## jonmaxwell (Nov 22, 2011)

but what about ripping off a passage, or the exact plot? i'd go postal if my stuff was ripped off and i had no recourse, and i have much belief in my talent, so i believe many would indeed rip it off, if they could recognize talent.

i just don't see the downside of my obsessively copyrighting everything. someone mentioned that it looks noobish. well.. 1. i really dont care at all what other's think of my putting a copyright on something. and 2. i would think that even if some editor thinks its noobish, well, what does that have to do with the writing quality? noobs can be great writers. i would think an editor would realize that fact.

and by the way, MANY if not most editors, in my opinion are complete idiots. just my honest opinion. one of the reasons i made an attempt to go pro is because of so many instances where i've picked up a book and it was written sooooo badly, and it was sitting on the shelf of Barnes & Noble.

ok here's a paraphrase of some first lines of a published book i'll never forget...

"the moon hung like a bulb in the sky. he uncurled from the car and stood up."

i mean, give me a break. that's right out of junior-high. but that was making money, so i was like, screw it, i'm submitting my stuff.


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## Terry D (Nov 23, 2011)

jonmaxwell said:


> but what about ripping off a passage, or the exact plot? i'd go postal if my stuff was ripped off and i had no recourse, and i have much belief in my talent, so i believe many would indeed rip it off, if they could recognize talent.
> 
> i just don't see the downside of my obsessively copyrighting everything. someone mentioned that it looks noobish. well.. 1. i really dont care at all what other's think of my putting a copyright on something. and 2. i would think that even if some editor thinks its noobish, well, what does that have to do with the writing quality? noobs can be great writers. i would think an editor would realize that fact.
> 
> ...



A manuscript marked with a '©' is no more protected than one without it.  Now, if you mean that you submit a copy of your work to the U.S. Copyright Office and pay for official registration, then you have 'officially' copyrighted your material.  That's not something many writers do since, as has been stated above, your work is protected from the moment you put it into a tangible form.  Your rough drafts, rewrites, and any other documentation of the growth of your work is all the proof you would ever need to win a copyright dispute.

You also cannot copyright a plot, only the story you tell expressing that plot.

Publishers do not steal authors work.  There is no upside to doing so for them.  Expecting them to be thieves, and assuming that "most editors are complete idiots" is unprofessional, immature, and will not improve your chances of getting published.


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## movieman (Nov 23, 2011)

jonmaxwell said:


> but what about ripping off a passage, or the exact plot? i'd go postal if my stuff was ripped off and i had no recourse, and i have much belief in my talent, so i believe many would indeed rip it off, if they could recognize talent.



In the writing business, a passage or plot and $5 will buy you a cup of coffee.

As mentioned above, you can't copyright a plot and a plot by itself is worthless. If you've taken a plot and written a great story around it, why would a publisher hire someone else to write a story with the same plot rather than buy yours?

Seriously, telling publishers that you think they're idiots and thieves isn't likely to help your career.


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## jonmaxwell (Nov 23, 2011)

Terry D said:


> A manuscript marked with a '©' is no more protected than one without it.  Now, if you mean that you submit a copy of your work to the U.S. Copyright Office and pay for official registration, then you have 'officially' copyrighted your material.  That's not something many writers do since, as has been stated above, your work is protected from the moment you put it into a tangible form.  Your rough drafts, rewrites, and any other documentation of the growth of your work is all the proof you would ever need to win a copyright dispute.
> 
> You also cannot copyright a plot, only the story you tell expressing that plot.
> 
> Publishers do not steal authors work.  There is no upside to doing so for them.  Expecting them to be thieves, and assuming that "most editors are complete idiots" is unprofessional, immature, and will not improve your chances of getting published.



yea, i meant that i send my stuff to the copyright office and pay the fee. I also send stuff to the WGA.

Admittedly i have a deficit with patience, but the fact is i quickly became frustrated with the editor route, especially when i was offered the whopping 7% return on each book sold, so i self published, and i've been quite successful enough. I haven't written in about 5 years, as I switched to the other side of the brain to computer science.

i only joined this forum because i was confronted with some typical literary scam recently, and got pissed-off enough to make an account here an warn people. Now i'm getting sucked in to the forum i guess.


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## Rustgold (Nov 26, 2011)

Agents and publishers are looking at an author as a long-term investment of careers, not as a 2 minute deal.  They're simply not going to mess with that if they're credible, but of course that's about doing research before submitting.


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## Steamship (Dec 5, 2011)

I was talking this over with my wife earlier, it's good to know I don't have to seek out copyright before sending it off. 
You begin to worry a little when you see stories of people suing because "Their" work had been ripped off.


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## Terry D (Dec 6, 2011)

Jeffors25 said:


> It is true that your work is considered copyrighted as soon as you write/type them out. However, it is also true, that any threat of suing anyone who has ripped your work off that you do not hold an official copyright from the US copyright office(or most likely another copyright office) is completely toothless. In other words they are copyrighted but really not(besides technically) until you get an official copyright. What I mean by that is there really is no reason for hesitation in stealing your work and claiming it as their own without a copyright like the one I mentioned above.
> 
> But like Steerpike said above a publisher will usually take care of that for you. Self-publishing you will.
> And when submitting your work to any credible publisher, you really don't need to worry about them stealing it.



This is not true.  All you have to do in court -- in the exceedingly rare case of infringement -- is to provide rough drafts, revisions, outlines, etc. to show the evolution of the work.  Again, reputable publishers do not steal manuscripts.  So, the best way to protect yourself is to check out your prospective market and only submit to legitimate publications.


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