# Do you think I should leave political commentary out of this story?



## ironpony (Jun 1, 2020)

I'm writing a screenplay which is about a detective, trying to bring down a group of mysterious people who are kidnapping and raping people, as a form of revenge for constantly being rejected by society, and for how society has treated them.

I wrote it so a good chunk of it is told from the media's point of view, from newcasters explaining the case, to talk show hosts debating the issue, as to how society is going to be affected by these crimes, and how it's influencing other behaviors in men who are constantly rejected all the time, who also feel vengeful about it.

I am wondering, looking at the script with fresh eyes, if I should perhaps cut out all the social/political commentary aspects of it, and just have it be a straight up thriller, and the readers can make up their own minds about the politics.

Or should I have a political media point of view it, kind of like how a movie like Natural Born Killers had that sort of point of view for a good portion of it, for example?

What do you think would be the best approach for this type of premise subject matter?


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## bdcharles (Jun 1, 2020)

For you, personally, I would say leave out the commentary and just focus on the story.


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## Tryon (Jun 1, 2020)

Politics are polarizing.  You'll wind up alienating half your audience. Who doesn't enjoy a straight up thriller?

There's probably some reason I should keep my new guy opinions to myself, but there it is!


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## Xander416 (Jun 1, 2020)

New guy above pretty much mirrors what I think. Try to avoid any political commentary unless it's absolutely integral to the plot.


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## Periander (Jun 1, 2020)

I agree with the previous reviewers.  Your story doesn't seem to unfold at the level of higher government, eg., the President or J. Edgar Hoover - I don't think it's a political thriller.  It's about a detective who wants to bring bad guys to justice.  Keep the scope narrow and get up close and let us feel what the character is feeling.  Detectives don't usually care much about politics, do they?


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## ironpony (Jun 1, 2020)

Oh okay. Some stories tend to embrace it though so is there a reason to avoid it when some others seem to embrace it?


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## Foxee (Jun 1, 2020)

Tryon said:


> Politics are polarizing.  You'll wind up alienating half your audience. Who doesn't enjoy a straight up thriller?



Exactly.



> There's probably some reason I should keep my new guy opinions to myself, but there it is!


Nope! You might be new here but you're not new to the world and your opinions are just as good as anyone else's.


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## ironpony (Jun 1, 2020)

Oh okay, I never thought of politics as alienating in fiction.  Like for example, one of the reasons people like the original Robocop movie was because of the political commentary, and I don't think it would have been as popular without it.


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## Mutimir (Jun 1, 2020)

Write both. Then have the version with the political stuff be the director's cut.


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## Irwin (Jun 1, 2020)

If your story is weak, telling it from a political point of view can strengthen it for those who ascribe to that viewpoint. So you can go from nobody really liking it to just a certain group of people liking it.

It seems like a lot of books and movies use that strategy these days: using minority related topics to attract an audience for otherwise mediocre material.


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## indianroads (Jun 1, 2020)

IMO if you're going to do something like that, follow the maxim 'show don't tell'. All my books are about something, government oppression, religious intolerance, and so forth, but I tell the story from a character's POV without undo preaching. Again, IMO, readers don't want to be lectured, they want to be entertained.


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## Olly Buckle (Jun 1, 2020)

I can agree with the comments above regarding a particular political take being alienating to some. But you say you are putting much of it as reporting by news channels, it would seem unnatural for at least some of them not to have a political take on things. Perhaps can make that so that it is not a single take, depending which channel is doing the reporting. Put it outside the story and your hero, who is simply getting on with his job.


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## ironpony (Jun 1, 2020)

Oh well I could also write it so the news is just reporting what is happening without any personal opinions from the newscasters as well, if that's better?



> IMO if you're going to do something like that, follow the maxim 'show don't tell'. All my books are about something, government oppression, religious intolerance, and so forth, but I tell the story from a character's POV without undo preaching. Again, IMO, readers don't want to be lectured, they want to be entertained.



Oh okay, but how do other stories have people give opinions in the media, and it doesn't come off as lecturing, such as the movie Natural Born Killers?


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## indianroads (Jun 1, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh well I could also write it so the news is just reporting what is happening without any personal opinions from the newscasters as well, if that's better?
> 
> Oh okay, but how do other stories have people give opinions in the media, and it doesn't come off as lecturing, such as the movie Natural Born Killers?



How do the stories in the news impact him personally? When I was a kid, we heard about the Vietnam war all the time - the death toll was posted on the news weekly, but they stopped doing that because it was depressing. None of that had much effect on me, but when a friend was killed over there it became real. 

He was on leave in Saigon, having a beer in a bar with his friends, when a Vietnamese kid tossed a grenade into the place. The politics of the war were too complex for most everyone to grasp, and as it is these days, the opposing sides traded what amounted to soundbites as insults that did little more than show our ignorance. We live in a gray world and insist on arguments that are either black or white.

How does the decisions of political figures effect his life? That's the 'tell' IMO.


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## Irwin (Jun 1, 2020)

My wife and I watched an excellent movie last night from 1970 called In the Heat of the Night, starring Sidney Poitier and Rod Steiger which was extremely political. It was about racism in America--particular in a small, backwards southern town. But it wasn't the politics that made it a good movie; it was the interesting characters--all of whom had some good traits and some bad, like real people.

That's the problem with a lot of movies today: the characters aren't believable or relatable, which is why they're boring.

So, you can incorporate politics into your novel, but if you want mass appeal, you need to have a good story and interesting characters.


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## ironpony (Jun 1, 2020)

Oh okay thanks.  I feel that the story and characters are about as good as they can get probably.  I just thought that maybe if I add the politics of the premise on top of it, maybe it will be a good bonus as well maybe.


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## BornForBurning (Jun 1, 2020)

Part of the reason politics can be a mistake in fiction is that people removed from the political context miss the emotional significance. Say we reach a point in history where there aren't any discernible races within the human species (which won't ever happen, scientifically speaking, but I digress.) No one from that era will understand on a snap-emotional level that a casually racist comment is meant to characterize someone as flawed. Not without significant study and thought, anyways. That's a pretty extreme example, but there are more practical ones. For example, as a kid, I missed a lot of the 'evil' characterization of the Witch in _The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe _because I wasn't familiar with the Christian sexual ethic (and sexuality in general! Though the 'white, except for a very red mouth' line scared me reasons I definitely didn't consciously grasp as a ten-year-old) As an adult, some parts of that book hit home a lot stronger purely because I understand on a factual level what strains of philosophy Lewis is pulling from.


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## bdcharles (Jun 2, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thanks.  I feel that the story and characters are about as good as they can get probably.  I just thought that maybe if I add the politics of the premise on top of it, maybe it will be a good bonus as well maybe.




I would say you are probably overextending your reach at that point. Sometimes things are best kept simpler.


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## Olly Buckle (Jun 2, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thanks.  I feel that the story and characters are about as good as they can get probably.  I just thought that maybe if I add the politics of the premise on top of it, maybe it will be a good bonus as well maybe.



That does sound rather like spelling things out, which usually comes across 'preachy'. If it fits with the story, like an odd in character comment, maybe, but otherwise leave it.


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## ironpony (Jun 2, 2020)

Oh okay, but how do other movies be preachy, and still be good though?  What are they doing to be preachy the right way, if that makes sense?


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## indianroads (Jun 2, 2020)

If done wrong, inserting politics into your novel could be off-putting and possibly polarize your audience = bad reviews (not a good thing).

Some people consider Orwell's 1984 and Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451 to be satire... personally I don't agree and instead consider them a warning. Both these novels hold up well because the story is told from the POV of a sympathetic character without a lot of editorializing.


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## Theglasshouse (Jun 2, 2020)

Good point on those being satire or warning. I read once that those are considered some of the roots of science fiction. I don't know where I read satire is the genre where science fiction originated. That being said it would be fun to spin a story into a satire. I've seen it done before here. A recent short story I read did this. Anyways in some novels satire points fun at society. There must straddle a line of fairness that shows that the political world in science fiction or other genres can be done with a good sense of humor. Satire makes fun of society. Some authors wrote for example that religious people were manipulative in a humorous way. That can be good and interesting to read. It sounds like interesting characterization. Even Margaret Atwood I read in a book that her works are considered to be written by a satirist or satire.


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## indianroads (Jun 2, 2020)

Great satire can be found in Vonnegut's books.


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## Olly Buckle (Jun 3, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, but how do other movies be preachy, and still be good though?  What are they doing to be preachy the right way, if that makes sense?



A good question, and I guess there are various answers. Sometimes they simply manage to catch the 'zeitgeist', to be in tune with popular opinion, sometimes, like Vonnegut, they are using personal experience to put a reality and immediacy into a story. I don't think there is one simple answer, but I do think there are a lot more people who try it and fail than there are those who try and succeed. It is a risky thing as a main part of the story, as a thread from a single character, or news source, that it fits I feel you would be much more likely to get away with it. Those who agreed could accept, those who didn't could see it as typical of 'them'.


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## Xander416 (Jun 3, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, I never thought of politics as alienating in fiction.  Like for example, one of the reasons people like the original Robocop movie was because of the political commentary, and I don't think it would have been as popular without it.


RoboCop was political satire.


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## ironpony (Jun 3, 2020)

Actually I just watched the movie Black and Blue last night, and I noticed how that movie was preachy in a bad way, so I see how politics can be bad there.  But maybe there is good preachy and too much in your face preachy, and some stories can still be preachy in a good way?


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## Sir-KP (Jun 4, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Actually I just watched the movie Black and Blue last night, and I noticed how that movie was preachy in a bad way, so I see how politics can be bad there.  But maybe there is good preachy and too much in your face preachy, and some stories can still be preachy in a good way?



That's a good question. Maybe it has something to do with the topic and how the 'preach' being carried.

I remember there was an art teacher in my high school. An old man. He used to replace a history teacher for a couple of week. No disrespect, but he brought history class to a whole new level. He told the history like it was a bedtime story in sunny afternoon. Everybody fell asleep - in a good way. 

In another time, there was another teacher. Very telly. And everybody, of course, was bored and fell asleep. Common case.

In conclusion, these teachers were preachy. Everybody fell asleep. But one was enjoyable, the other was not.


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## RD Meyer (Jun 11, 2020)

I'd say keep out the politics unless the story depends on it.  If it has to be there, avoid caricaturing any one view, since that's the part that will tend to turn people off the most.


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## Laughing Duck 137z (Jul 10, 2020)

Only if it advances the plot or questions a character's beliefs, some proper conflict can be good.


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## Taylor (Jul 10, 2020)

ironpony said:


> I'm writing a screenplay which is about a detective, trying to bring down a group of mysterious people who are kidnapping and raping people, as a form of revenge for constantly being rejected by society, and for how society has treated them.
> 
> I wrote it so a good chunk of it is told from the media's point of view, from newcasters explaining the case, to talk show hosts debating the issue, as to how society is going to be affected by these crimes, and how it's influencing other behaviors in men who are constantly rejected all the time, who also feel vengeful about it.
> 
> ...



Ok, so first of all I have to say, I'm likely not your audience, as I avoid movies about gangs and serial rapists.  However, as soon as I read the part about them _"constantly being rejected by society, and for how society has treated them"_, I was intrigued.  It was something unique, and it interested me. If you want to get my attention, then definitely include the political/social media point of view. 

 Personally, my pet peeve in movies is when they are too black and white and predictable.  I think it would be great if it started out as a basic plot and then when the media bring to light the motives behind this group, people start to take notice.   Perhaps the media reports on their individual lives and some of the injustices that they have endured.

My one thought would be to possibly remove the rape aspect.  Perhaps they just torture them slightly.  The rape part throws me off, because I like the angle of a sort of payback, and it should be in alignment with their own past, "not being treated well", and then not treating very well in return. And of course the people they torture have to be somewhat unlikeable people. Maybe a slum landlord or a nasty banker. At some part of the movie I want to feel some compassion for the criminals, and even though no crimes are justifyable, we can understand what the motivation may be.

You have a great idea for a script!


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## indianroads (Jul 11, 2020)

As is said, step away from the podium and just tell the truth. Describe the situation, and let your readers form their own opinions.


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## ironpony (Jul 11, 2020)

Taylor said:


> Ok, so first of all I have to say, I'm likely not your audience, as I avoid movies about gangs and serial rapists.  However, as soon as I read the part about them _"constantly being rejected by society, and for how society has treated them"_, I was intrigued.  It was something unique, and it interested me. If you want to get my attention, then definitely include the political/social media point of view.
> 
> Personally, my pet peeve in movies is when they are too black and white and predictable.  I think it would be great if it started out as a basic plot and then when the media bring to light the motives behind this group, people start to take notice.   Perhaps the media reports on their individual lives and some of the injustices that they have endured.
> 
> ...



Oh okay, thanks for the input.

Well, when it comes to political commentary vs. non-commentary, one example I think of is the movie Robocop when compared to the remake.  The original shows parts of the story from the media point of view with no political commentary, such as in this clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEYoY3NwF24&t=231s

But the remake, shows political commentary in the media, such as in this clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STxlXqEN6ho

In the first clip, the newscasters just state the news, but do not give any personal political opinions on it.  They just state it and that's it, where as in the second clip, the newscaster gives political commentary on the issue.  Is the first one better, since it avoids political commentary?


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## Taylor (Jul 11, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, thanks for the input.
> 
> Well, when it comes to political commentary vs. non-commentary, one example I think of is the movie Robocop when compared to the remake.  The original shows parts of the story from the media point of view with no political commentary, such as in this clip:
> 
> ...



Thanks for the clips.  Now I really understand what you mean!  

After watching the clips, I had to research Robocop to understand the theme.  Robocop is to a certain degree a political thriller.  It deals with capitalism, greed and privatization with the main underlying theme of dystopia. The private sector is in cahoots with the government to protect its financial interests.  It is a really obvious message of the government taking control for the benefit of a few greedy citizens. In this environment, it is likely that a corrupt, totalitarian government would have control of the media.  As such, it really makes sense in Robocop to include it. 

And of course, the good prevails when Murphy starts to have memories, returns to humanity and turns against his capitalistic maker, Jones.  The poor man wins in the end.  Your basic blockbuster plot!  

I guess to further make a reccommendation, I would need to understand what position you are taking with respect to the government. Typically, politics are tied to money and control.  I don't see a clear right wing/left wing message.  What position are the media taking and who are they blaming?  What is the political message?

And again I would stress that to bring something of a sexual nature, i.e. rape muddies it up a bit.  Typically rape is not a political issue. Well not in the U.S. anyway.  But let me know if you see this otherwise.  

A interesting question.  I'm very intrigued by it...


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## ironpony (Jul 11, 2020)

Oh okay thanks.  Yeah, true, it perhaps is not a political issue and political was the wrong word I chose.  Perhaps a better word is 'social'.  I am not sure how the media would comment on it, as I did not write the commentary yet, if I should.  But do you think I should I have the newscaster and media comment on the social issues of this crime event, of raping as a form of payback on society for constant rejection; or should I just have the media report the news and leave all social commentary out of it, if that makes sense?


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## Taylor (Jul 11, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay thanks.  Yeah, true, it perhaps is not a political issue and political was the wrong word I chose.  Perhaps a better word is 'social'.  I am not sure how the media would comment on it, as I did not write the commentary yet, if I should.  But do you think I should I have the newscaster and media comment on the social issues of this crime event, of raping as a form of payback on society for constant rejection; or should I just have the media report the news and leave all social commentary out of it, if that makes sense?



Thanks for the clarification!  In this case, as it is not a political issue, then I would leave the "newscaster" out of it.  Typically when the news press try to influence the public, it is political in nature.  However, I could really see a talk show host, like a Heraldo Rivera or a Nancy Grace, have this case as a topic, and have various phycologists, crime experts having a discussion.  I think that would be a great way for you to get some of your underlying theme in dialogue. Really works for me!


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## JBF (Jul 11, 2020)

Having read the replies and gone back to read the initial post, somethings occurs to me.  This isn't intended as a thread derailment, just something that knocked loose in the back of my mind and hasn't settled yet.  

Are you sure this is about the crime itself?  

Weird question, I know.  And I'm not doubting your intentions or what you tell us.  Reason I ask is this: if a considerable portion of the story is relayed through various mass-media outlets (which can in and of themselves be a kind of character) how much of the story is the actual crime versus how the crime is reported to the public?  Put another way, how much of the news is _news _versus an assortment of un-elected and un-accountable talking heads spinning _events _into _stories_?

I ask because it seems like you could potentially have two equally intriguing halves at work.  On the grunt side, you have your law enforcement working to counter a threat the public; they have to identify their opposition, learn how they operate, and eventually stop them.  On the other, a loose group of outsiders who have no direct contact with the events and likely no LE field experience who have to package what limited information they receive for dissemination to public whose knowledge of the material will range from non-extant to expert.  

I mean...Night of the Living Dead was a no-budget horror movie made by a couple of amateurs from Pennsylvania.  If not for the accident of casting that landed Duane Jones it probably would have stayed that way.  Instead, people saw something in the product that its architects had never envisioned.  The interpretation after the fact is what kept it in the public eye and gave it the longevity it might not enjoy otherwise.  

Apologies for getting off into the weeds.  My brain goes strange places sometimes.


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## Lovecrafter (Jul 11, 2020)

ironpony said:


> I'm writing a screenplay which is about a detective, trying to bring down a group of mysterious people who are kidnapping and raping people, as a form of revenge for constantly being rejected by society, and for how society has treated them.
> 
> I wrote it so a good chunk of it is told from the media's point of view, from newcasters explaining the case, to talk show hosts debating the issue, as to how society is going to be affected by these crimes, and how it's influencing other behaviors in men who are constantly rejected all the time, who also feel vengeful about it.
> 
> ...



I think overly politicizing something could separate people. All fiction, in and on itself, can already be a very subjective thing. Adding another aspect that can further divide an audience seems risky.

But, I can also see how it can add to a story and make it more riveting. Still, I would consider it a risk.


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## ironpony (Jul 11, 2020)

Oh okay.  Well as far as the media goes, it would only be the opening and the ending of the story that is told from a media point of view.  The opening just sets it's up and the ending is more of an epilogue of the events.  But if I want to go with just a little commentary, I could go the talk show route for a bit of the opening as well.  But most of the rest is told from the law enforcement side of it, and the remaining is also told from the villain's side of things as well.

As for the Night of the Living Dead thought, what does that movie have to do with the political or social messaging, or were you referring to something else entirely?


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## JBF (Jul 11, 2020)

ironpony said:


> As for the Night of the Living Dead thought, what does that movie have to do with the political or social messaging, or were you referring to something else entirely?



As it was intended, NOTLD had no particular political significance; it was a low-budget horror movie with a cast of nobodies, and probably would have remained such had the lead actor not changed (by chance) from a white redneck to a decently-articulate black man with some decent leadership skills.  That wasn't in the plan, but it happened.  And as a byproduct of that, the ending went from depicting a pretty straightforward situation (i.e., local authority handling a nightmare situation to the best of its ability) to referencing the Jim Crow era, and in a good portion of the viewing public the last three minutes changed the story from a string of cheap scares to a commentary on race relations in America.  Being as this was 1968 it wasn't much of a stretch.  Some saw it as a criticism of U.S. involvement in Viet Nam; seems out there to me, but I wasn't there.  

My roundabout point is that sometimes works are remembered for reasons wholly outside the intention of their creators.  Sometimes outside factors line up with an otherwise unremarkable story and grab something in its consumers that leads to an interest and an audience it might not have otherwise.  Reference any number of popular works lately under scrutiny for stuff that was commonplace at the time of release.  

Now...if you're only using media references for an opening and closing it's possible, even probable, that none of this is relevant.  

On the other hand, if the reports are laced into the progression of the story you'll likely have to deal with the perception that _all _news commentators these days are perceived to have a bias one way or the other.


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## ironpony (Jul 11, 2020)

Oh okay.  It seems that in current news, there are more biases than compared to the 90s for example, but that doesn't I have to portray it that way, of course.

I don't know if I want my story to have unintended themes though.  That Night of the Living Dead one seemed unintended.  I didn't think that the ending was a comment on race relations, but just not knowing who was a zombie or not.

I already that in King Kong, a lot of people believe that the movie was a commentary on slavery, but the producer came out and said that no such theme was intended.  I always thought people were reaching on that one, but I don't want unintended themes, unless of course they are good.  But shouldn't I have my themes intended, rather than unintended?

Actually one reader so far, told me that I concentrate too much on theme, and I should just write the story without any theme intended, and just let any themes that rise, be totally accidental.  But I feel if I do that, I could end up with unwanted themes, or maybe even none at all, and just becomes completely plot driven, if I don't intend a theme.

What do you think out of curiosity?


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## JBF (Jul 11, 2020)

I tend to look at theme as something presenting itself through characters rather than an independent part of the story.  Likely as not that seems like a non-answer.  It probably is.  All told, every readers is going to look at your work through a different glass.  Things get read into works all the time, fan theory discussions being a prime example.  When it's all said and done the only thing for sure is what winds up on the page.  Everything external to that is conjecture.

Of course, I've also resigned myself to offending any eventual readers, intentionally or not, and until I see torches and pitchforks on the front lawn I'm not inclined to worry about it too much.


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## luckyscars (Jul 11, 2020)

My experience is that as long as the writer is attuned to current events (which everybody should be) social commentary will kind of feed into stories organically as it happens.

The novel I just wrote the first draft for has themes that touch on three different 'political' issues in America: (1) Abortion (2) Debt and specifically medical debt and (3) Sexual harrassment in the workplace. I'm not sure why. I'm not especially interested in those things and as a man the abortion issue in particular I was wary of. But the story isn't _about _any  of those issues. I mean, I didn't set out to write a polemic on anything or anyone.

 I believe what simply happened is around the same time I came up with the story, which is really a thriller, I happened to watch 'Reversing Roe' on Netflix which kind of planted the seed (no pun intended) of how difficult it is for a woman in distress to get an abortion in certain parts of this country. At the same time, I was reading stuff about Republicans' attempts to fuck with healthcare. Lastly, a fellow associate of mine recently settled a discrimination lawsuit with a large corporation after a long fight regarding constructive discharge.

Because those issues were fresh in my head, I decided to include the main character as being a married woman who gets pregnant after a drunken one night stand with her boss on a business trip and then gets an abortion. 

Writing about a character who has an abortion meant I did more research, talked to some women, and decided to incorporate what I had learned about the issue and how it affects them. 

The plot involves her dealing with her boss who starts stalking her and generally harassing her at work and her attempts to keep the abortion secret from her oblivious husband, which involves her being unable to quit her job (and get away from her boss) due to financial pressures and debts -- she HAS to keep her job -- which is where the commentary on debt culture and especially medical debt comes in. 

Finally, the fact it is set in an office and includes her struggles with HR policies and laws, meant I could include some commentary on just how inept such policies are at protecting people -- particularly women, but anybody really. 

So, the book is highly political but it's not at all written to BE political.


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## ironpony (Jul 11, 2020)

Oh okay that's interesting.  And perhaps my story will have unintended themes or commentary as well, that I may not see coming.


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## JBF (Jul 11, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay that's interesting.  And perhaps my story will have unintended themes or commentary as well, that I may not see coming.



If so, and if it's positively received, act like you intended it that way all along.  It's a cheap move...but deception is key in the fiction racket.


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## Kyle R (Jul 11, 2020)

If there's a message you're trying to get out there, why not use the narrative itself to convey it? Create empathy for the kinds of people you want empathy for. Villainize the kinds of people that you think deserve to be villainized.

The story _is_ your message, in story form.

The opposite approach (being obvious about it to the point of being preachy) has the problem of breaking the fourth wall, destroying the illusion of the story.

Suddenly your readers/audiences find the story halted, while they're being addressed, directly, by the storyteller.

Not only does this ruin immersion, it also implies that you think your readers/audiences are too stupid to figure things out on their own. It's condescending, patronizing, and inelegant. And it usually smacks of amateurism. :grief:

I say: avoid it, if you can!


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## ironpony (Jul 11, 2020)

Oh okay, I just thought I would express the theme from a media/news point of view perhaps.  But in this clip example I posted before, does Robocop get too overt about it's themes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STxlXqEN6ho


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## Bayview (Jul 12, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, I just thought I would express the theme from a media/news point of view perhaps.  But in this clip example I posted before, does Robocop get too overt about it's themes?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STxlXqEN6ho




What message do you take from that clip?


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## Kyle R (Jul 12, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, I just thought I would express the theme from a media/news point of view perhaps.  But in this clip example I posted before, does Robocop get too overt about it's themes?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STxlXqEN6ho



Pat Novak is a satirical character (meant to mock and vilify modern political pundits). He's also one of the story's secondary villains. So that speech there isn't a reflection of the film's themes. Quite the opposite, actually—he's one of the bad guys. The audience is supposed to dislike him, and to disagree with him.

That's another reason why I'm not a fan of social/political commentary in a story—unless the message is crystal clear, it can often be misunderstood.

I'm more of a fan of subtle messages, where the story itself conveys the argument.

Look at films like _Avatar_ and _District 9_, for example. They clearly vilify one thing, while creating empathy for another. They deliver a message (quite strongly, too), without interrupting the story to do so. That, to me, is good writing. :encouragement:


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## Taylor (Jul 12, 2020)

Kyle R said:


> If there's a message you're trying to get out there, why not use the narrative itself to convey it? Create empathy for the kinds of people you want empathy for. Villainize the kinds of people that you think deserve to be villainized.
> 
> The story _is_ your message, in story form.
> 
> ...



I thought this was an interesting response Kyle. I'm curious why you think using scenes of media discussing the crimes would imply that the readers are too stupid to figure it out.  Personally, when I read fiction I prefer more dialogue than narrative.  And I appreciate when the author finds creative ways to tell the story by conversations. I don't find it condescending.  Not sure what that says about me...lol!  I just find it more dynamic.  

And for the writer, it is more of a challenge to write good believable dialogue than it is to simply narrate the story.  Why do you think it smacks of amateurism?


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## ironpony (Jul 12, 2020)

Oh okay. How is the media point of view, breaking the fourth wall though?  I thought breaking the fourth wall as when it characters know they're in a story and they addressed to the reader or audience directly.


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## Kyle R (Jul 12, 2020)

Taylor said:


> I thought this was an interesting response Kyle. I'm curious why you think using scenes of media discussing the crimes would imply that the readers are too stupid to figure it out.


It depends on intent, for me.

A scene where the media discusses the crimes? Totally fine by me! Those are often fun, engaging ways to share information with the reader/audience. :encouragement:

On the other hand: a scene where the media discusses the crimes, but the discussion is just a veiled attempt by the writer to spout their own sociopolitical beliefs? I'm not a fan. It usually yanks me right out of the story, and leaves me sighing in disappointment. :cower:


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## Kyle R (Jul 12, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay. How is the media point of view, breaking the fourth wall though?  I thought breaking the fourth wall as when it characters know they're in a story and they addressed to the reader or audience directly.


It depends on how you handle it.

If the television becomes the entire screen (in a show/movie), then the fourth wall is essentially being broken, as media is, in essence, treating the audience as the viewer.

(That _Robocop_ clip that you linked had a few fourth-wall breaks in it, as the character, Pat Novak, was speaking directly to the camera, as if addressing you and me.)

To be fair, media exposition doesn't always break the fourth wall, though. I just find the fourth-wall ones to be particularly bothersome. :grief:

Two other ways to use fictional media that you should be aware of, and be cautious of overusing:

1) The "*Coincidental Broadcast*" trope

This is where a character randomly turns on a television or a radio, and, sure enough, the broadcast is referring to something that directly impacts him or her. Usually the character shushes whoever is nearby and says, "Wait, turn the volume up!", or something similar, as they lean in to pay closer attention.

and

2) The "*News Monopoly*" trope

This is where a character turns on a television or radio, and finds the same conversation topic—usually something related to the character himself/herself—spread across every station they turn to. A superhero's embarrassing/failing moment will probably end up with this trope, along with the fictional journalists saying something like, "Perhaps it's time for Masked Man to finally hang up his cape, for the betterment of us all."

These each have been done so much that you should use caution when employing them. Readers/audiences have seen both of these tropes so many times before.


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## Taylor (Jul 12, 2020)

Kyle R said:


> It depends on intent, for me.
> 
> A scene where the media discusses the crimes? Totally fine by me! Those are often fun, engaging ways to share information with the reader/audience. :encouragement:
> 
> On the other hand: a scene where the media discusses the crimes, but the discussion is just a veiled attempt by the writer to spout their own sociopolitical beliefs? I'm not a fan. It usually yanks me right out of the story, and leaves me sighing in disappointment. :cower:



Oh yes for sure.  I see your point!  A good strategy would be to avoid personal socio/political views and make sure the views are tied to advancing the plot.


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## ironpony (Jul 12, 2020)

Oh okay, I see what you mean about tied to the plot.  It's just before when I wrote it, I didn't have any news scenes, but I felt like I wasn't showing enough.  For example, one of the police inspector's character tells the others how the media is putting so much pressure on the department.  But the reader didn't see any of the media pressure, and could only take the inspector's word for it.  So therefore, should I show the media using social beliefs to apply pressure, or should I just have the character say he is being pressured, and that's enough?


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## luckyscars (Jul 13, 2020)

ironpony said:


> Oh okay, I see what you mean about tied to the plot.  It's just before when I wrote it, I didn't have any news scenes, but I felt like I wasn't showing enough.  For example, one of the police inspector's character tells the others how the media is putting so much pressure on the department.  But the reader didn't see any of the media pressure, and could only take the inspector's word for it.  So therefore, should I show the media using social beliefs to apply pressure, or should I just have the character say he is being pressured, and that's enough?



You could simply show it internally. I don't think you need to necessarily show the media's coverage to make the point convincingly. You could, but given you are writing a movie you are probably pretty restricted regarding time. 

For example, rather than just having the police inspector say "We are so pressured from the dastardly media!", which would be weak, you could instead consider how to make that clear in a more indirect fashion. 

Have the inspector or whoever it is refer to past incidents, anecdotes, whatever during the course of a meeting or briefing or disciplinary or something. Have him rant -- that's what pressured people do, right? Have him bring it up a lot and _show _how upset he is about this 'media pressure'. 

 As long as it's written with authentic emotions and enough hints as to what transpired in the past, the right flavor of language, it will work.

*"Officer Jackass did WHAT? Jesus Aitch Christ, Sergeant, when are ya gonna control your damn boys? You know that ugly cunt from Times's still writin' about that goddamn mess last year with fuckin' Officer  Hannity fuckin' up? Well she is, only this time it's us who have the knee on the neck! You unnerstand that, Sergeant Limbaugh? You know how this goes? You realize that goddamn Mayor an' his liberal fan club are still talking about DIS-BAN-DIN' the department? Yup, they're sayin' it in meetin's, town halls, you name it! Yeah, yeah, I know the Mayor's a damn pussy, but that ain't the point! It could happen, will happen, if your boys don't learn to keep their guns in the damn holster and their dicks in their pants! 'Cause if it does, if they do disband us, you know what that means? Well shit, I'll TELL ya what it means, Limbaugh! It means NO MORE TWINKIES IN THE CAFETERIA, LIMBAUGH, THAT'S WHAT IT MEANS! You'll be flippin' burgers before the week's out, you an' Jackass and the rest of us, if you don't learn to KEEP your goddamn DISCIPLINE!"*


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## Psychosurrealism (Jul 16, 2020)

I would leave politics out of it. We live in very political times where everyone is either far left or far right, even if they have the mildest of views.

However, based on your description, you may want to check out the Incel movement and see if that feeds into your story. That was the first thing I thought of when reading your post, https://www.newstatesman.com/scienc...ad-sexless-young-men-terrorism-any-other-name


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## ironpony (Jul 16, 2020)

Oh okay, thanks, yes I could show it internally, or something like that.



> *"Officer Jackass did WHAT? Jesus Aitch Christ, Sergeant, when are ya gonna control your damn boys? You know that ugly cunt from Times's still writin' about that goddamn mess last year with fuckin' Officer Hannity fuckin' up? Well she is, only this time it's us who have the knee on the neck! You unnerstand that, Sergeant Limbaugh? You know how this goes? You realize that goddamn Mayor an' his liberal fan club are still talking about DIS-BAN-DIN' the department? Yup, they're sayin' it in meetin's, town halls, you name it! Yeah, yeah, I know the Mayor's a damn pussy, but that ain't the point! It could happen, will happen, if your boys don't learn to keep their guns in the damn holster and their dicks in their pants! 'Cause if it does, if they do disband us, you know what that means? Well shit, I'll TELL ya what it means, Limbaugh! It means NO MORE TWINKIES IN THE CAFETERIA, LIMBAUGH, THAT'S WHAT IT MEANS! You'll be flippin' burgers before the week's out, you an' Jackass and the rest of us, if you don't learn to KEEP your goddamn DISCIPLINE!"*



Well actually there is a scene I already have with the mayor, but he is meeting with the Inspector personally to give him pressure at the city hall.  However, should I just have the Inspector talk about it in third person, rather than show the meeting?



> I would leave politics out of it. We live in very political times where everyone is either far left or far right, even if they have the mildest of views.
> 
> However, based on your description, you may want to check out the Incel movement and see if that feeds into your story. That was the first thing I thought of when reading your post, https://www.newstatesman.com/science...any-other-name



As for everyone being either far left, or far right, that's only in American politics right now, isn't it, or is it like that all over the world more now?  Plus would this incel issue be a far left, or far right issue, politics wise?

I was going to also ask, should I use the word 'incel' in my script since I don't want to offend any particular group who calls themselves that... So if that's what my villains are, should I call them something else, not to offend a particular group with that label?  But also, since one of the members of the group of villains is a woman, would that not make them incel though, or would they still be technically in a sense?


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