# COSTS to Self-publish my new book...



## Mikeyboy_esq (Jan 22, 2017)

When I began writing my first book a little over 4 years ago, I never stopped to consider how much it would cost to produce the final product, bring it to market and then spread the word to potential customers. I simply started typing and assumed the cost would be minimal. Fast forward to today (approximately 3 months after I published *Engaging College Students: A Fun and Edgy Guide for Professors*), and the reality of just how expensive this endeavor actually was has finally sunk in. To date, I have spent a GRAND TOTAL of approximately…

[drum roll please]





*Seven Thousand Smack-a-roos.*





  Really? Really, really? Holy Toledo! Where did all that money go?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




My total cost includes $2,400 for writing the manuscript (developmental edits + copyediting), $2,500 for self-publishing the book (various costs), and $2,100 for marketing expenses during the first 90 days (various costs).  I have a detailed breakdown of these costs available for anyone who cares to see it (just shoot me a PM).  Obviously, I could have created and marketed my book for less, but I was very picky about how I wanted my book to look and I also wanted to be competitive in my genre (most of my book's competitors were traditionally published and had plenty of $$$ to support them).  Let me know what you think.


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## Schrody (Jan 23, 2017)

I think you over spent it...


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## Mikeyboy_esq (Jan 23, 2017)

Yeah, I can see why some folks might say that.  If I did spend too much, it makes it that much more challenging to recoup my investment and (hopefully) someday earn a profit.  Funny thing is that I don't know that I would have done many things different if I could do it all over.  Keep in mind that my goal was to make my book look professional and be competitive with my book's direct competitors - most of which are traditionally published.  So I spent a little more $$$ here and there to make it look as good as possible.  Even if my book doesn't sell enough copies to recoup all of my investment, I'm proud of the finished product and will try to use the lessons I learned from this first book to make my next book better and more efficient.


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## TKent (Jan 23, 2017)

Most of it is in line with what publishers spend. Although publishers generally don't have to pay for editorial reviews since all of the major reviewers accept submissions from actual publishers. The book cover I think you could have gotten for less and still gotten quality. I think you should be able to find something good in the 250 dollar range if you shop around. But folks like MS Corley and other professional book cover designers charge what you paid and more.  The marketing is an open bucket really. You can spend as much as you are willing. The key is to make sure that as you spend, you try to track results. It isn't easy to do, but if you use promo codes or other things in your print ads and set up tracking links for webbased ads, you can see what kind of results you get. There are so many things that don't get results. 

One thing I would do is find other books in your subject area that are either new releases or coming soon that are being published by medium to large-sized publishers. Then search those books and see where and how they are being promoted. You can also do the same to figure out who to pitch the book for review.

The thing is, self-publishing costs run the gamut from zero for DIY to what you spent. It depends on what your goals are and also what your budget is. You sound like you've done a lot of homework and your goal is to present your book as it would be presented by a publisher. If that is the case, you are doing that.


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## Mikeyboy_esq (Jan 23, 2017)

TKent,
Thanks for the thorough response!  I like your idea of following new books in my genre to see how they are advertised/marketed, but I'm not quite sure how to monitor that. There are so many places where a book could be advertised and promoted, so I'm not sure how to track down that info.  Any suggestions?

I agree that it makes sense to monitor which advertising efforts have an impact on book sales... that is one of the things I really like about Amazon Marketing Service ads (click-thru ads on Amazon) b/c it tells me exactly which of my key words resulted in clicks and which clicks resulted in book sales (and how many).  That way I can tweak how much I want to spend for each click and I can also use the most popular words in my click-thru ads as the key words for my book listing.  I also pay attention to my book's website to see where I'm getting traffic from... most of my traffic seems to come from FB and LinkedIn.  I can also see on my website how many times folks clicked on my page that directs them to my Amazon or BarneandNoble book listings.  Amazon is clicked way more often than BN.  

Of course, I'm still very new at all of this and right now I'm still trying to figure out what marketing activities work best for my book (which is targeted at college professors/instructors). I haven't had much luck thus far finding popular blogs and online sites specifically for professors where I can try to spread the word about my book.  Mostly what I've found are groups in LinkedIn.  I'm open to any suggestions if anyone has any.

Thanks.


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## RikWriter (Jan 26, 2017)

Wow, glad I don't self-publish non-fiction.  My grand total of expenses for my last book was $12 for an illustration from iStock for the cover.  I think I made that back in somewhere around the first hour.


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## Jay Greenstein (Jan 27, 2017)

On the other hand, my costs, thus far, have been zero.

And maybe I'm being overly critical, but it seems to me that paying someone who says "We can find good things to say about almost any book," to write a "review" for your book is unethical, to say the least. As is having the majority of reader comments coming from people who are not verified purchasers.

Hell, if you're competent to write the damn book you can write your own phony review every bit as well as they can. And then you can claim it comes from anywhere you please. After all, if the reader looks for "Publishers Daily Reviews, they're going to see that they're making it up. So why not claim it came from the New York Times, or Kirkus? If you're going to lie, lie big.


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## RikWriter (Jan 27, 2017)

Jay Greenstein said:


> On the other hand, my costs, thus far, have been zero.
> 
> And maybe I'm being overly critical, but it seems to me that paying someone who says "We can find good things to say about almost any book," to write a "review" for your book is unethical, to say the least. As is having the majority of reader comments coming from people who are not verified purchasers.



People who read a book via KU don't count as verified purchasers when they leave reviews.


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## Mikeyboy_esq (Jan 27, 2017)

I don't see the relevance of a book review given by a verified purchaser versus someone who received the book from another source.  For example, I did a 10 book give-away contest on Goodreads and at least one of those winners left reviews of my book on multiple websites including Amazon.  Should their opinion of my book not count as much as someone who purchased the book from Amazon?  Also, if someone who purchased my book at Barnesandnoble or another retailer decides to leave a review of my book on Amazon, should that person's opinion not count? 

As far as ethics, I don't see a problem paying for an editorial review.  You are NOT paying for a favorable review, only an honest review.  If the paid reviewer gives an unfavorable review, the author has the choice of not publishing that editorial review. The author does not have any control over whether the editorial review is positive or negative.  Also, the consumer can clearly see in a book listing when it contains a paid editorial review (its listed in the editorial review section, not in the section for reviews from consumers).  And consumers are free to give as much or as little weight to a paid editorial review as they like.  Just my 2 cents.


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## Jay Greenstein (Jan 27, 2017)

> People who read a book via KU don't count as verified purchasers when they leave reviews.


Maybe it's me, but when I see twenty-eight reviews, with only three listed as verified, _and_ the pitch includes a "review" from someone paid to say nice things, I tend to be a bit skeptical that there were twenty-five KU readers and only three who bought it.

Your mileage may differ.


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## RikWriter (Jan 27, 2017)

Jay Greenstein said:


> Maybe it's me, but when I see twenty-eight reviews, with only three listed as verified, _and_ the pitch includes a "review" from someone paid to say nice things, I tend to be a bit skeptical that there were twenty-five KU readers and only three who bought it.
> 
> Your mileage may differ.



Shrug.  Mostly when I'm trying to decide whether to buy a book, I'll check out the worst reviews first.


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## Jay Greenstein (Jan 27, 2017)

> I don't see the relevance of a book review given by a verified purchaser  versus someone who received the book from another source.


It's relevant because it filters out reviews from Mom and the cousins. Again, maybe I'm cynical, but when I see twenty eight reviews and not one, "I didn't like it—and the author paid a "we like everything," site for a supposedly real review, I tend to be a bit suspicious. And when I look at the people leaving reviews, and find that one of the verified purchases reviewed forty-four different products, ranging from beds to a blow gun on one single day, and did the same kind of thing on other days, my spidy senses begin tingling.





> I did a 10 book give-away contest on Goodreads and at least one of those  winners left reviews of my book on multiple websites including Amazon.


Giving books away in return for a review? And they were kind? Not much of a surprise. Not too many people will accept a free book and then post, saying they didn't like it. 





> You are NOT paying for a favorable review, only an honest review.


Yet I'm hard pressed to find where they gave a less than glowing review to anything.

On their site every review shown is a five star, so I picked one, Reverence, by Joshua Landeros, and went to Amazon. The writing was amateur, and would have been rejected before the end of page one, yet it got a glowing five star review.

Then I looked at, The Grandfather Paradox: a time-travel story, by Steven Burgauer. Their review ended with "Five stars to _The Grandfather Paradox_. It’s a saga worth savoring, from beginning to end." But as someone who owned a manuscript critiquing service, there is one one word for the writing: dreadful. It would have been rejected in a paragraph.

And finally, I turned to Charlotte Kills by Reb MacRath. That one got a five plus review. It would have been rejected before the end of the first sentence: "Though each month seems the best in our city, most agree that May is sadistically grand."

So please, don't tell me you're not paying for a favorable review.

But this is not the venue for discussing such things, which is why I didn't comment on your book. Nor am I implying anything about it, only questioning your marketing techniques. I responded because you seem to have no point for the post other than to make people know the book exists. And, your view of how to self-publish seems to imply that one must take your trail and spend for such things as a paid review of the kind that site gives, a view with I strongly disagree. And in the end, you did ask.

I'm sorry, I hadn't intended this to turn to a confrontation, so I'll just wish you luck with your career.


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## aj47 (Jan 27, 2017)

Mikeyboy_esq said:


> I don't see the relevance of a book review given by a verified purchaser versus someone who received the book from another source.



You know they risked their money on the book. You know they weren't part of a sweetheart arrangement.


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## TKent (Jan 27, 2017)

I see so many responses here that make it sound like you shouldn't pay money for anything that has to do with marketing or producing a book. The reality is, it depends on the book and the authors goals. If you are really trying to market your book the way a publisher would in order to try to sell more than a couple of hundred books, then you do need reviews, lots of them, and publishers pay money for reviews no matter how you look at it. They send out many, many print books, so that's the book and the postage and get a small percentage of reviews in return. They also pay for services like NetGalley to get their books in front of potential reviewers, and that is $399 to list a book so that reviewers can access it, more to actually promote the book on NetGalley. I've included a link to just one publisher's catalog below. Take a look at the marketing bullet points to get an idea of what they do. A key review from Publisher's Weekly, Kirkus or one of the other trade reviewers is actually very important to get a bookseller and/or librarian to consider the book. So it depends on what your goals are. It is true that if the book is crap, you can spend all the money in the world and no one is going to read it. It is also true that the book could be wonderful, and you can spend all the money in the world and no one is going to read it. It is also true that you can spend all of that money trying to get a book into bookstores to reach a wider audience, and if the book isn't available on a wholesaler like Ingram and Baker & Taylor with a typical trade discount and with the option to return the books, you won't get a bookstore to touch it. Mikey, I have a wonderful presentation from a recent webinar I watched that was presented by IBPA & NetGalley. The speaker was a book publicist who went step by step through everything they did for a specific book (non-fiction like yours) to market it starting many, many months before its release date, and all of the things they did to make it successful. It will really give you great insight into the process for that book. Like everything, there is no one size fits all. PM me if you are interested and I'll give it to you.

http://macmillan-services.supadu.co...alog/assets/current/TOR_Fall-2017_11_2016.pdf


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## TKent (Jan 27, 2017)

Mikey one thing you could do is find some books on goodreads that are successful and go to the "early" reviews. You will find many that establish immediately that they were given an ARC for a review. That is a standard practice in the industry. It is one of the key methods of creating book buzz. Getting it out in front of as many early readers as you can afford to do. Many readers use Goodreads as a way to find books. LibraryThing.com is another site that is similar. If you go to the LibraryThing giveaways, you will see that every single month, publishers have a long list of books that they are giving away to early reviewers. Goodreads Giveaways are another method. If you plan to have more than one book and make a business out of this, then these are things that will be important to your success. You might also join the Independent Book Publisher's Association. The annual fee is minimal and you get access to a lot of benefits. You can also watch a lot of free courses online. And there is a place you can ask questions of your peers, etc. There are quite a few self-publishers who are members in addition to the many small presses. Just an idea


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## Mikeyboy_esq (Jan 27, 2017)

Jay Greenstein said:


> Maybe it's me, but when I see twenty-eight reviews, with only three listed as verified, _and_ the pitch includes a "review" from someone paid to say nice things, I tend to be a bit skeptical that there were twenty-five KU readers and only three who bought it.
> 
> Your mileage may differ.



Jay,
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, but I can assure you that the 28 reviews on my Amazon page are legit (at least they are as far as I'm aware).  I also have similar 4 and 5 star reviews on BN.com and Goodreads.com (although not near as many as Amazon).  Keep in mind that I gave away about 150 print copies of my book to spread the word plus a few dozen digital versions too (some given to colleges, some given as part of book give-away contests, etc.). I also sent follow-up letters to the folks I sent my book to and asked them nicely to please leave an honest review if they enjoyed my book.  Nothing wrong with that in my humble opinion. 

Kind regards,


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## Mikeyboy_esq (Jan 27, 2017)

TKent said:


> Mikey one thing you could do is find some books on goodreads that are successful and go to the "early" reviews. You will find many that establish immediately that they were given an ARC for a review. That is a standard practice in the industry. It is one of the key methods of creating book buzz. Getting it out in front of as many early readers as you can afford to do. Many readers use Goodreads as a way to find books. LibraryThing.com is another site that is similar. If you go to the LibraryThing giveaways, you will see that every single month, publishers have a long list of books that they are giving away to early reviewers. Goodreads Giveaways are another method. If you plan to have more than one book and make a business out of this, then these are things that will be important to your success. You might also join the Independent Book Publisher's Association. The annual fee is minimal and you get access to a lot of benefits. You can also watch a lot of free courses online. And there is a place you can ask questions of your peers, etc. There are quite a few self-publishers who are members in addition to the many small presses. Just an idea



Thanks for the helpful tips TKent.  I already participated in 2 separate Goodreads give-aways and also bought click-thru ads on Goodreads to promote my book and the give-away.  I agree that was a good way to spread the word, but I also get the impression that Goodreads folks are mostly looking for fiction books (mine is non-fiction).  In any case, I may do another book giveaway on Goodreads in the future just to keep interest up there.  I will check into the IBPA... if I recall correctly, I think I may have submitted my book to their annual book contest (I actually submitted my book to several book contests to see how my book stacks up against others in my genre...I'm sure I won't win them all, but it would be nice if my book gets some kind of recognition in at least one).  Anyway, I didn't join their organization, but I'll check it out.

Thanks again for the helpful advice!

Kind regards,


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## Jay Greenstein (Jan 28, 2017)

> and publishers pay money for reviews no matter how you look at it.


First of all, the publishers send the book to people who are paid, by their employer, for reviews. They're not paid by the one asking for the review. And that reviewer might just say the book stinks. A pay for the review house supplies only five star reviews, no matter the quality of the writing, as a look at the rating vs the writing on that site shows. The proper technical term for such an approach is: whore. 

Some of the review houses use volunteer reviewers who get a copy free in return for their review. But they tell their readers, in the FAC listing of the site that if they don't like the book to send it back so someone else can review it. So you have two problems. First, the one reading has no idea of what readers of the genre like, only what they like, so it's a reader reaction, not a review. And next, only positive responses make it to the customer. And of course, for either pay to play approache, the one doing the reading does not have their finger on the pulse of the reading public and don't make their living through the accuracy of their work.


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## TKent (Jan 28, 2017)

Jay, no offense, but some of the things you say go directly against my own experience so I will say this last thing just so that there is other info available to folks here.

1. On the topic of paid reviews from the professional trade magazines, and for this I'll focus on Kirkus, Foreword, etc. These are expensive and most publishers would not pay for one of these. They don't have to. They get them free. I have obtained free reviews from Foreword and Publisher's Weekly, so I understand that route. However, some small publishers and many self-published authors who are trying to sell their books to the trade (libraries, bookstores) do pay for these. I have paid for one from Kirkus because no one picked up a book for review despite trying the regular method of sending out print books months in advance. If you pay for a Kirkus review, you get to review the review and decide whether it gets published or not. So yes, if you look at the indie reviews on Kirkus, you will see lots of positive reviews because most people choose not to have the bad ones published. Mine was good so I chose to have it published. Later I got an email that said they had chosen it as one of the few indie reviews that would actually get put into the magazine. Did it help? I did get the book into book stores, including Barnes & Noble. Did I sell a lot of books? Didn't even break the 200 mark and 1/3 of those were returned because consumers didn't buy them. So that said, the trade is one piece of the puzzle and they absolutely do pay attention to Publishers Weekly, Kirkus Reviews, etc. You can get thousands of books out there but if no one knows about the book, you'll just end up giving the money back AND paying a bit extra for the return fees. Is the fee for a paid review worth the money? Probably not often, but the fact is most books published, self and otherwise, barely break even. There is always financial risk involved. There are other pay for review sites, and I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about the key trade publications such as Kirkus, Foreword, etc. 


2. Print galley copies. Most print galley copies are sent to media/pro reviewers. Not too many publishers send out print galleys to consumer reviewers. I have signed up and received a galley copy of Toni Morrison's last novel when we were trying to get an interview with her here. It came to me in print format. I have sent out well over a hundred print galley copies (and never asked for anyone to send them back). Some of the reviews that resulted from these were bad reviews. They are out there in the world and I don't have a "say" in whether or not a bad review gets published. The more media outlets/bloggers that review your book, the more consumers see the reviews and learn about your book. This is what is needed to make sure the books from #1 above don't get returned.

3. Digital/Print direct to consumer. Publishers big and small do giveaways of hundreds, thousands of these in order to generate buzz on Goodreads, LibraryThings and Amazon. This is an industry standard for most books. If I were a self-publisher and not trying to get my book into bookstores, I'd really focus on this and get as many out there as I could. The link to the TOR catalog says on almost every single book, that one of the key marketing aspects is wide ARC distribution. 

4. On the topic of Goodreads Giveaways, I've done multiple of these for different books. I give away 10 books, and in return the activity on the book goes up. On one giveaway, over 300 people added the book to their to-read shelf. 

I don't know how many books you have sold using your methods, but your approach is certainly not the only one. It is like saying that paying for marketing a product is a waste of money. Sometimes it is, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't try to market your product. And I also think that putting money into things like editing and book covers and interior design of print books is money will-spent if someone is serious about what they are producing. I get that a lot of self-publishers will argue until the cows come home that they didn't spend a dime and anyone who does is wasting their money. I appreciate everyone has an approach and an opinion. I guess for me, of all of the self-published authors I've heard talk about this, Hugh Howey is one of the most successful out there. I think for me personally, if I'm deciding whose advice to take, it would be his, and he advises to approach self-publishing the way a publisher would. Get good editing, good covers, good book design, etc. He uses MS Corley for many of his covers now, who I can't even afford, but if I could, I would use him in a heartbeat. They are spectacular.


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## aj47 (Jan 28, 2017)

Okay, I should probably clarify what I said above.  I'm not talking about professional reviewers.  What I'm talking about is the guys on Fiverr who will blog your book for $5 or what-have-you vs. verified purchasers.  And yes, go to Fiverr, you'll see them.  I have respect for legitimate reviewers -- paid or not.


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## TKent (Jan 28, 2017)

And I totally agree with this Annie. There are tons of places out there like that, and they are like buying twitter or facebook followers. They aren't real, so they aren't going to engage in a way that is meaningful to your social media platform. Same with reviews. Strictly as a consumer, the reviews I use are the ones where someone has obviously read the book, like it or not. In fact, I've read a bad review (one star) from a reviewer how read an ARC and they were honest with their comments and said that they didn't even finish because of the profanity and crude language. Since I am not bothered by profanity and crude language, I felt that was very helpful because then I could continue looking at reviews that had relevance to my own tastes.



astroannie said:


> Okay, I should probably clarify what I said above.  I'm not talking about professional reviewers.  What I'm talking about is the guys on Fiverr who will blog your book for $5 or what-have-you vs. verified purchasers.  And yes, go to Fiverr, you'll see them.  I have respect for legitimate reviewers -- paid or not.


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## Mikeyboy_esq (Jan 28, 2017)

TKent,
 Your post on the prior page about reviewers contained a lot of useful information. Thank you for sharing!  And congrats on having one of your Kirkus book reviews selected to be placed in their magazine and getting your book placed in B&N.  I have read that is a possibility, but never actually spoken to anyone who had that experience.

I agree with you that there are LOTS of self-published authors who spent $0 or nearly $0 to self-publish their books and will argue that anyone who spend $$$ on a book was ripped off.  I've heard from several who said that when I posted the article that is at the top of this thread plus 2 other recent articles that I posted about (involving self-publishing).  I have also heard from several authors who (like me) think it was well-worth spending the $ for professional copyediting, book cover design, etc.  Just my 2 cents, but I feel that if I'm going to put my name on it and put it out there for the public to read/criticize, then I definitely want to make sure the book is as professional as I can afford to make it.  But I'm a practical person and realize that at some point I'm just throwing away $ if I overspend on my book. The cold reality is that many self-pub books don't sell huge #s of books and so its very risky to invest big $$$ into a self-pub book (whether its well-written or not).  

I'm currently in the process of self-publishing my 2nd book, and I'm still using professionals to do all the parts that are needed to make my book appear professional, but I'm trying to find ways to lower my costs (e.g., find talented professionals who don't charge as much and being more careful on the $ I spend for marketing, etc.). Will be interesting to see if my 2nd book sells more or less than my 1st book.


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## TKent (Jan 28, 2017)

Best of luck with both books!



Mikeyboy_esq said:


> TKent,
> Your post on the prior page about reviewers contained a lot of useful information. Thank you for sharing!  And congrats on having one of your Kirkus book reviews selected to be placed in their magazine and getting your book placed in B&N.  I have read that is a possibility, but never actually spoken to anyone who had that experience.
> 
> I agree with you that there are LOTS of self-published authors who spent $0 or nearly $0 to self-publish their books and will argue that anyone who spend $$$ on a book was ripped off.  I've heard from several who said that when I posted the article that is at the top of this thread plus 2 other recent articles that I posted about (involving self-publishing).  I have also heard from several authors who (like me) think it was well-worth spending the $ for professional copyediting, book cover design, etc.  Just my 2 cents, but I feel that if I'm going to put my name on it and put it out there for the public to read/criticize, then I definitely want to make sure the book is as professional as I can afford to make it.  But I'm a practical person and realize that at some point I'm just throwing away $ if I overspend on my book. The cold reality is that many self-pub books don't sell huge #s of books and so its very risky to invest big $$$ into a self-pub book (whether its well-written or not).
> ...


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## RikWriter (Jan 28, 2017)

Jay Greenstein said:


> Maybe it's me, but when I see twenty-eight reviews, with only three listed as verified, _and_ the pitch includes a "review" from someone paid to say nice things, I tend to be a bit skeptical that there were twenty-five KU readers and only three who bought it.
> 
> Your mileage may differ.



Well, this month so far, I have around 3,000 books sold, but over 3 million page reads on KU.  Of the 42 reviews for my book that came out last month, 13 are verified purchasers and the rest aren't.  Since I don't know any of them and gave out no advance review copies, I have to assume the rest read it on KU.


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## Jay Greenstein (Jan 28, 2017)

> if you look at the indie reviews on Kirkus, you will see lots of  positive reviews because most people choose not to have the bad ones  published.


And? They'll be honest reviews, by people Kirkus uses because they know how to review, not give universal five star reviews for beginner-level writing. Take a look at that "review" site and read the reviews for fiction, then look at the writing in the released book and ask yourself if the writing bears even a casual relationship to the gushing praise the paid review provides. For every one I looked at, had the writer submitted it to my critiquing service I would have returned it and their check with a note to study the basics and practice for six months before they submit. Yet each of them got five stars. In fact, the worst of the three literally got a five plus star review rating.

Yes, I know people want to sell their book. Who doesn't? But hiring someone to lie about the work isn't promoting, it's just lying.





> I'm talking about the key trade publications such as Kirkus, Foreword, etc.


But the subject is paid reviews from sites that exist only to write phony five star reviews.


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## Finn Hicks (Feb 11, 2017)

You would have came out cheaper going the e-book route and publishing it through Amazon...Just my take. E-Books are becoming quite the thing these days and they are cheap to publish....Calibre will get you started...


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## moderan (Feb 12, 2017)

Finn Hicks said:


> You would have came out cheaper going the e-book route and publishing it through Amazon...Just my take. E-Books are becoming quite the thing these days and they are cheap to publish....Calibre will get you started...


A professionally managed book campaign will help you stand out from the hordes of other people who do that because it *is* that easy (see kunox thread). 
But you don't have to spend a lot of money. The overhead for my first ebook was 80 bucks. It was published as an experiment and sold a thousand copies before I had a review, based on arcs and a previously-existing audience for my fiction. Doesn't mean I didn't want reviews, just that I'd prefer them to be *real ones*. I work in a very niche market and don't expect to pay the rent with my work. I use professional artists for my covers and do the rest myself.
A lot of paid reviews will tarnish your reputation. The aforementioned Hugh Howey has been accused of doing so. Repeatedly.


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## TKent (Feb 12, 2017)

Moderan,

To be clear, my comments on paid editorial reviews was based on seeing that he'd spent $100 on one paid editorial review from an expert in his field. And my only experience has been with Kirkus because a Kirkus review can be very useful in selling a book into libraries and bookstores, not so much to the general public who may not even know what Kirkus is. Jay mentioned this discussion had evolved into a discussion on paying the masses to review your book, and I had not picked up on that.  I agree, I think it is useless. Consumer reviews are important but they need to be based on actually reading the book. In fact, one bad review that says they gave a book a one due to profanity, can avoid a bunch of other bad reviews from people who don't like profanity in a book and see that in a review so don't buy it. I personally don't mind profanity in a book, so if that was the only critique the reviewer had, I wouldn't care that it was a poor review. I use consumer reviews to make decisions fairly often but I read a bunch of them on the same book and make my own assessment, sometimes looking at a reviewers other reviews to see if we even like the same kind of books. And I loved your Moderan cover by the way! Wish that book was available digitally, I'd check it out. 

I had not heard that about Hugh Howey. It is hard to believe actually. His first series was traditionally published, and Wool grew organically based on my knowledge, which may not be complete. Once Wool became a "phenomenon" then lots of his other books sold in droves. In fact, I learned of it from a friend who heard of it from a friend who heard of it from a friend, etc. Anyway, if paying for a review = Hugh's results, I'd consider paying for reviews despite thinking it would be an awful thing to do, just so that I could write full time! Then I'd be honest after that one book. Promise!  (that's what they all say)



moderan said:


> A professionally managed book campaign will help you stand out from the hordes of other people who do that because it *is* that easy (see kunox thread).
> But you don't have to spend a lot of money. The overhead for my first ebook was 80 bucks. It was published as an experiment and sold a thousand copies before I had a review, based on arcs and a previously-existing audience for my fiction. Doesn't mean I didn't want reviews, just that I'd prefer them to be *real ones*. I work in a very niche market and don't expect to pay the rent with my work. I use professional artists for my covers and do the rest myself.
> A lot of paid reviews will tarnish your reputation. The aforementioned Hugh Howey has been accused of doing so. Repeatedly.


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## moderan (Feb 13, 2017)

TKent said:


> Moderan,
> 
> To be clear, my comments on paid editorial reviews was based on seeing that he'd spent $100 on one paid editorial review from an expert in his field. And my only experience has been with Kirkus because a Kirkus review can be very useful in selling a book into libraries and bookstores, not so much to the general public who may not even know what Kirkus is. Jay mentioned this discussion had evolved into a discussion on paying the masses to review your book, and I had not picked up on that.  I agree, I think it is useless. Consumer reviews are important but they need to be based on actually reading the book. In fact, one bad review that says they gave a book a one due to profanity, can avoid a bunch of other bad reviews from people who don't like profanity in a book and see that in a review so don't buy it. I personally don't mind profanity in a book, so if that was the only critique the reviewer had, I wouldn't care that it was a poor review. I use consumer reviews to make decisions fairly often but I read a bunch of them on the same book and make my own assessment, sometimes looking at a reviewers other reviews to see if we even like the same kind of books. And I loved your Moderan cover by the way! Wish that book was available digitally, I'd check it out.
> 
> I had not heard that about Hugh Howey. It is hard to believe actually. His first series was traditionally published, and Wool grew organically based on my knowledge, which may not be complete. Once Wool became a "phenomenon" then lots of his other books sold in droves. In fact, I learned of it from a friend who heard of it from a friend who heard of it from a friend, etc. Anyway, if paying for a review = Hugh's results, I'd consider paying for reviews despite thinking it would be an awful thing to do, just so that I could write full time! Then I'd be honest after that one book. Promise!  (that's what they all say)



His first series was published through small-press, and then he went with KDP to get greater exposure. This blogger, among others, says that Howey deployed Fiverr and other sites to generate reviews and word-of-mouth. There's a distressing lack of proof to a lot of those allegations. This blogger has better sources. I dunno. I don't have any side in this, except that I'm not with cheating. 
Thanks for the kind words. I'll be sure to let everyone I can know when I have new books. Two are due out within the next month.


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## RikWriter (Feb 13, 2017)

moderan said:


> A lot of paid reviews will tarnish your reputation. The aforementioned Hugh Howey has been accused of doing so. Repeatedly.




I'm sure he's crying all the way to the bank.


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## Raevenlord (Feb 13, 2017)

I really, really have to thank @rikWriter and @TKent for the thought-out, informative posts they wrote on this thread. Put into context what happens, and the work involved, in publishing a book... Also, thanks @Mikeyboy_esq for sharing this experience and sparking this conversation.

To be an arsonist of souls is the best occupation I can think of... Even if you do end up with burnt fingers.


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## Mikeyboy_esq (Feb 18, 2017)

A lot of people criticized my original post b/c I admitted to spending way more $$$ on my first book than most people thought was reasonable.  I can understand why those folks said that I spent too much, but I still feel strongly that the things I chose to spend $ on were smart choices.  However, some of the people I hired were a bit pricey (I knew that going in, but wanted those folks for a particular reason) and I went a little overboard on other things (probably gave away too many books and signed up for too many book contests).

I'm planning to publish my 2nd book this coming week (it's a self-publishing guide based on the steps that I took to self-publish my first book), and it compares the costs that I spent to self-publish and market my debut book with the costs that I spent on this second book. I basically followed the same exact steps for this second book, but spent only $1,500 total (including costs to write, self-publish and market thru the first 90 days) as compared to ~$7k for my first book. With only 2 books under my belt, I'm no expert. However, I do think my approach to self-publishing is sound and this 2nd book experience has proven to me that it is possible to self-publish a book for much, much cheaper and still create a quality book (provided I do all of the steps that I took for my first book). Thanks again for everyone's feedback above.  I learned a lot... and I'm sure I still have a lot to learn!


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